IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2011-03-17

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flexxxvhey, I just wanted to try the tacile feedback option from cssu, but nothing changes? (I enabled it in the condif file and installed tactile and killed hildon-desktop / did restart) the rest is working. what exactly is tactile feedback?00:01
GAN900Proteous, I vote V.00:01
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flexxxvnevermind. it is working00:03
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ProteousV, pfffff00:11
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DocScrutinizerwhat's up with elections?00:32
DocScrutinizercanceled due to lack of public interest?00:33
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pupnikhmm well isn't the council there to manage maemo/nokia relations from community side00:34
DocScrutinizer<yawn> again - ok, seems elections are obsolete ;-P00:37
DocScrutinizerprolly I should change topic, uh?00:37
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chxwe need an age filter on tmo. good grief.00:39
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pupniki think it's a joke00:41
DocScrutinizerHTF to add tags to such an awesome thread?!!!!?!?!?!!!!one!!11!eleven00:41
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DocScrutinizerpupnik: it's for sure a joke, questionable if it's an intentional one00:42
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DocScrutinizerOMG! Posts:3, Thanks:1 ,  I'm seriously temped to find out about that post that earned that thanks00:44
pupnik"The most commonly accepted value for the risk is that the increased risk of cancer is 4 percent per Sievert."00:45
pupnikpoor workers00:45
DocScrutinizerok, so just try to get to 16%, this will stop all cancer rather short term00:46
DocScrutinizermake that 20% if you're not SM00:47
pupnikyes radiation above a certain level will also kill the cancer cells :)00:47
DocScrutinizer5Sv considered immediately lethal (few hours)00:47
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DocScrutinizer<2Sv you got chances to survivie00:48
DocScrutinizeruntil you die from those 8% probability cancer00:49
DocScrutinizersome 10 years later00:49
* pupnik is sad about cancer00:50
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DocScrutinizerpupnik: honestly that quote above is nonsense or at very least meaningless00:51
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DocScrutinizerI heard from a friend who's UK and a carpenter that in USA carpenters work to a precision of 5mm, for anything better than that you need special experts. So let me guess about the scientific part in scientificamerican00:54
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DocScrutinizeroh, sorry, I bet he said 0.2"00:56
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DocScrutinizerwhich of course sounds way better :-P00:57
DocScrutinizersorry again, probably 1/4" is the correct metrics00:59
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: I point you to
SpeedEvilOh - he's canadian.01:00
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SpeedEvilI want to make his screw advance box joint jig.01:01
SpeedEvil(probably with a stepperthough, not fancy gears)01:01
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Proteouswhen you are building a house you don't need 1 micron percision...01:05
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nidO1 micron and 5mm are a long way apart though, and houses generally do want far better than 5mm precision.01:08
SpeedEvilIt depends.01:08
SpeedEvilThey really don't in many cases.01:09
nidOI for one would be thoroughly pissed if any of the woodwork in my place was out of line by half a cm01:09
SpeedEvilFor example, timber will move around 1% of its length.01:09
SpeedEvilDue to changes in humidity01:09
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orlokSpeedEvil: depending on the wood!01:14
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orlokSpeedEvil: metal will do similar, but due to temprature changes01:14
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SpeedEvilorlok: True. It's a lot more predictable though.01:18
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orlokSpeedEvil: yeah.. its interesting to see how some telescope components are made out of wood in some scopes01:19
orlokusually the tripod legs to lower vibration01:19
SpeedEvil1mm/m for 25C delta for steel01:20
orlokSpeedEvil: Enough to knock a telescope out of focus!01:21
* SpeedEvil wishes he'd gtten his inflatable telescope done01:22
orlokSpeedEvil: especially when you consider they often get moved from inside to outside.. but they need to reach equilibrium with the outside air to prevent air currents disturbing the view01:22
SpeedEvil(carbon fibre cords held under tension by inflated structure)01:22
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orlokSpeedEvil: Heh, mirror or refractor?01:25
orlokmirror i guess01:25
orlokthe optics are the pain01:25
SpeedEvilorlok: mirror, yes.01:26
SpeedEvilGeometry is fun too.01:26
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* SpeedEvil wishes they'd have built OWL.01:27
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pupnikcool SpeedEvil01:32
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pupnikthat telescope would cost 1 week's warmongering in Afghanistan01:33
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pupnikcould build a field of 100 such telescopes with 2 years of the cost01:34
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pupnikbtw why can't we build big fields of small telescopes?01:35
SpeedEvilpupnik: Inteferometers are hard.01:36
SpeedEvilAnd the sparse array fallacy (orr something like that) means that a sparsely filled apature is not equivalent to a filled apature.01:37
pupnikthat's enough of an answer for me, thanks01:37
SpeedEvilYou have to do the combination by optical means - you can't do it with electronics.01:37
SpeedEvilThis makes it really hard.01:37
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pupnikyeah longer wavelengths are more doable, right?01:38
SpeedEvilpupnik: In brief - if you take a bit of foil, and poke several holes in it with a needle, and look through it, you can see better than one needle-hole, but it's very different from a clear apature.01:39
SpeedEvilWhere longer wavelengrths = microwave.01:39
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pupnik1.5 billion to be able to see other planets01:40
pupnikor 7 billion to beat up tribesmen in the hindu-kush mountains01:40
pupnikfor a month01:40
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: - voice over GSM01:45
DocScrutinizervoice over GSM? incredible :-D01:45
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ds3is that like voice over copper?01:46
ds3or voice over string?01:46
SpeedEvilencrypted data - over GSM - and thatr data happens to be voice01:46
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Proteousvoice over smoke signals, multicast FTW01:49
* ShadowJK gets TV over multicast01:49
SpeedEvilthe above is actually pointful if you want enncrypted voice that can't be snooped.01:50
Proteoushow is the key exchange done?01:50
SpeedEvilI found it also fun the recent work that you can - with variab le rate codecs - fingerprint what's being said though it's tunneled.01:50
SpeedEvilProteous: Inmany ways that's irrelevant - diffle-heimen.01:51
SpeedEvilOr however it's spelled.01:51
SpeedEvilOnce you've got the data channel, encryptionbecomes boring.01:51
Proteousif  you are worried about nnot being sniffed then the details are very important :P01:51
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ds3forget about voice, it is obsolete01:52
SpeedEvilBut key negotiation is well known.01:52
Proteoussure, in theory01:52
Proteousbut the devil is in the implementation01:52
SpeedEvilOne-time-pads are the nuclear option.01:52
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DocScrutinizertoo long. Is there a transcript?01:59
SpeedEvilYeah - autotranscripts'd be nice02:00
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lolcatYes, I found a java developer!02:07
SpeedEvilI think to develop java, you dip it in concentrated hot lye for 5 minutes.02:07
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: what are they doing? custom GSM-codec, or specially designed vocoder to transmit 2400bd as "speech"?02:14
SpeedEvilthe latter02:14
SpeedEvilI haven't watched it properly yet eitehr.02:14
DocScrutinizeror do they simply ship around the bandwidth problem by avoiding realtime?02:14
SpeedEvilIt's realtime I think - I need to watch it though02:15
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derf2400 baud is certainly possible with newer speech codecs.02:18
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DocScrutinizer2400 for sure is enough for legible speech transmission02:24
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DocScrutinizera vocoder squeezing 2400 thru a GSM-codec that's by itself working at 9600 is a quite nifty piece of software though02:25
ShadowJKi guess if you optimize it for one speaker speaking one language.. :)02:25
SpeedEvilIf you could do reliable speaker-independant voice recongnition, that would make it awesome.02:26
DocScrutinizernah, iLBC should work with 240002:26
derfIt'll sound terrible, though.02:26
derfYou want something like AMBE or codec2.02:26
SpeedEvilSometimes you don't really care if it sounds terrible.02:27
SpeedEvilJust that the NSA/... can't read it.02:27
derfWell, AMBE/codec2 aren't going to sound beautiful.02:27
derfBut they'll sound a gekk of a lot better than iLBC.02:27
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DocScrutinizeryeah, there's a new better codec every other week02:40
DocScrutinizerthe 2400 figure is straight from my a... though. I have nfi how difficult it is to tailor a vocoder to exploit maximum possible bandwidth of the GSM voice->data coding process, how much redundancy you need to cope with errors on the medium, like companders, echo cancellation, klick and hum, and whatnot else02:43
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DocScrutinizerbest vocoder is a cherokee with a code book ;-P02:45
cehtehwhile we europeand use danish people for that purpose#02:46
cehtehoops wrong keyboard .. but that was only the login not the password :P02:47
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derfDocScrutinizer: AMBE's been around since the 90's, at lest.02:53
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TiagoTiagoFucking shit! I almost threw my N900 against the wall.03:03
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* SpeedEvil has done that.03:04
SpeedEvilTwice, in fact.03:04
SpeedEvilGetting out of bed, and it being in the blankets.03:04
cehtehmine dropped onto the asphalt street while biking recently03:04
SpeedEvilI'm glad I've got the case on it, it absorbs a little of the shock.03:05
cehtehluckily in my self-build cover .. no scratch, no dent :)03:05
TiagoTiagoI was writting this long elaborated post on a forum with microB, then the "battery low" banner popped so i pulled the charger cable and plugged it in, it said charging so i went back to writting, next thing i know another banner pops saying "recharge the battery" and the fucking thing shuts down03:05
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: :/03:06
cehtehhehe i have a cheap alternative charger .. it should provide 800ma .. but i doubt that sometimes when listening to music the battery drains03:07
cehteh(on USB it still charges)03:07
TiagoTiagois there an extension for microB like Lazarus for Firefox that keeps fresh  backups of unsent webform contents?03:08
TiagoTiagoI'm using the wallcharger that came with it03:08
cehtehi use that at home .. but in my workshop i use the other one03:09
TiagoTiagoI'm using the wallcharger that came with it03:09
DocScrutinizercehteh: D+- short missing03:10
cehtehDocScrutinizer: its explicitly rated for the n900 .. well i may figure that out03:10
TiagoTiagoIs there a way to read the current properties of the juice coming from the charger while plugged?03:11
cehtehbut without d+- shortened and without power acknowleding it shouldnt charge at all .. or at least at very low rate03:11
DocScrutinizerrated for... and certified I assume, by "our world leading expert"03:11
cehtehwell without d shortened how much power will it draw? by usb spec it cant draw more than 30mA or so (everything more has to be acknowledged with the host .. up to 500ma)03:12
TiagoTiagoLike that stereo bt headset from Nokia that is sweatproof but fries after just a couple of laps 'round the block?03:12
DocScrutinizercat `find /sys -name charger`03:12
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DocScrutinizerof course you might have picked a fubar charger that has a foldback OC-prot which switches off the output on overload until you remove the load03:14
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cehtehcat `find /sys -name charger`03:15
DocScrutinizerUSB compliant chargers should simply reduce output voltage until current is within limits03:15
DocScrutinizercehteh: == no D+-03:15
timeless_w7iptiagotiago: i'd suggest using <notes> for text fields and copying back to microb when you're ready03:15
timeless_w7ipnotes autosaves03:15
cehtehthis is on a usb port03:15
timeless_w7ipand generally is less likely to crash03:16
cehtehcan you read the charge current somewhere?03:16
cehtehlshal ...03:16
cehtehdoesnt give it03:16
cehteh  battery.reporting.current = 881  (0x371)  (int)03:17
cehteh = 1247  (0x4df)  (int)03:17
cehteh  battery.reporting.last_full = 880  (0x370)  (int)03:17
cehtehmhm need a new battery anyways03:17
DocScrutinizercharge current is from, but that's not equal to USB current03:17
DocScrutinizercehteh: forget hal, it tells the lies bme has spread03:17
cehtehwell the battery doesnt feel healthy anyways...03:18
cehtehits sometimes empty after a few hours of moderate or now use of the device03:18
DocScrutinizerhmm, so feed it some medicine03:18
cehtehreplace it i'd say :)03:19
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DocScrutinizerthe answer to all this is bq27200.sh03:19
cehtehwhere is that available?03:19
TiagoTiagothat line you gave me returns just the number 1,  nothing like amperage, voltage nor anything03:20
TiagoTiagowait, did i miss anything while i was restarting x-Chat?03:20
DocScrutinizeryes, THE ANSWER03:21
TiagoTiagoI said "brb" :(03:21
DocScrutinizersee /topic. For your relief there's a link called "chanlog:"03:23
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DocScrutinizer but the answer is a magic spell that can't get logged in any chanlogs03:25
DocScrutinizerTHE ANSWER03:25
DocScrutinizeralso most clients won't display it03:26
DocScrutinizerodds are it went completely unnoticed, others might just see03:27
TiagoTiagook, notes, good idea03:29
TiagoTiagowhat about reading the current properties of the chager juice? Where do i find that battery.reporting.current thing?03:30
DocScrutinizerplease rephrase03:31
TiagoTiagoah, nvm, lshal | grep battery03:32
DocScrutinizeroh, you're interested in lies and BS?03:32
cehteh <DocScrutinizer> the answer to all this is bq27200.sh03:33
DocScrutinizercehteh: and, isn't it the truth?03:33
cehtehdunno if its the truth but looks better03:33
cehtehwhile some 'legend' about the abbrevitations or some -h flag for human readable might be useful03:34
cehteh(maybe i shall look at that script)03:34
cehtehuhm .. since 2.6.38 my terminals under x behave strangely .. both xterm and rxvt03:35
TiagoTiagoWait, is that the  status of the battery or the properties of the juice flowing thru the usb port?03:35
cehtehmhm maybe its my windowmanager03:36
DocScrutinizerinteresing are TimeToFull(min), TimeToEmpty(min), RSOC/CSOC=%charge, NAC=capacity(mAh), CACD,CACT=corrected values of NAC, for current/temperature03:38
DocScrutinizerespecially important: CI:0 (Calculation Invalid)03:40
TiagoTiagowhat should those read if the charger juice is flowing as it should?03:40
DocScrutinizerwhich those?03:41
TiagoTiagothe values bq and/or reports that are relevant to juice health03:41
DocScrutinizersorry, doesn't parse03:42
TiagoTiagoI asked how to read the current properties of the juice comming in thru the USB port and you suggested lshal and  that bq script03:43
DocScrutinizerI did not03:43
TiagoTiagoI'm confused03:43
DocScrutinizerthere is no way to measure the current drawn from USB03:44
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TiagoTiagoHow does it know when there is not enough juice coming in like when doing heavy stuff  while plugged to a PC?03:45
DocScrutinizeryou can measure the current flowing to/from battery, with ` 5` and compare the mA reading for USB plugged/unplugged. They will roughly differ the size of current fed to system from USB03:45
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DocScrutinizernot enough current (my jiuce is in the fridge!) == batery current is discharging battery, not charging it03:46
TiagoTiagoSo it can tell the amount of current flowing to/from the battery and which way it is flowing?03:48
SpeedEvilOne random point on 'my USB is broken'03:48
SpeedEvilRandom objects can get into your USB port03:48
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: yes, that's what bq27200(.sh) is for03:48
SpeedEvilThe otehr day I picked a sliver of wood out, which was preventing the plug seating properly.03:49
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DocScrutinizerhehe, known issue03:49
TiagoTiagoJust current or voltage too?03:49
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: just look at it?03:49
TiagoTiagothe voltage value doesn't go negative, what gives?03:51
DocScrutinizeror study this:
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: your sentences always decode like googletranslates of chinese03:51
DocScrutinizerwell, not actually, you at least use correct punctuation marks like ? after what03:53
TiagoTiagoThere is a mV in that loop mode report, but unlike the mA its value doesn't go negative when i pull the charger plug out03:53
DocScrutinizerwell, that's the voltage of battery. Do you really expect it to reverse polarity?03:54
TiagoTiagoWhat is the explanation for that?03:54
TiagoTiagoi thought it was of the flow between the device and battery03:54
SpeedEvilNo. mV is the battery voltage03:55
DocScrutinizervoltage of the flow??03:55
SpeedEvilIt's always positive.03:55
DocScrutinizerflow is Ampere, it has no voltage03:55
* SpeedEvil drops Mr Ampere on TiagoTiago03:55
TiagoTiagoI thought that when electricity went the opposite way the numbers would be negated03:56
DocScrutinizerI made up my mind, it sounds japanese. "we stopped pump fill sea water on PV. Why pressure in PV it is positive?"03:57
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TiagoTiagoWatts = Volts * Amps , Watts stay positive regardless of the direction of the flow,  so Amps and Volts need to always have the same sign03:58
TiagoTiagoAre you saying people do use negative watts when talking about electricity?03:59
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DocScrutinizera water power plant delivers 5MW with water coming down from upper pond. To pump water back up during nighttime you of course can speak of negative Watts that the power plant's trubines EAT instead of delivering it04:01
DocScrutinizerpretty identical situation on battery charging or depleting04:02
TiagoTiagoWhat is the difference between 3V  -10mA and -3V 10mA ?04:03
DocScrutinizerhonestly, this is so silly I'm not sure if it's really nifty trolling04:03
villagerTiagoTiago: one difference would be reversed polarity => fried device?04:04
TiagoTiagoNo, i'm really trying to understand how things really work since i my previious understanding  is being contradicted04:04
TiagoTiagoHow are those two things not the same thing?04:05
TiagoTiagoI always thought Watts was an absolute value, a scalar, but now you're saying it can be negative...04:06
villagervoltage and current aren't the same thing, for starters04:06
villagerwatts is measured in a particular direction, just like current... if the energy flows in the opposite direction, it becomes negative04:08
DocScrutinizerwhile Voltage is like pressure (of a tank e.g), current is the flow of some medium (e.g. in / out of a pipe to that tank)04:08
TiagoTiagoAre you saying that if  someone wires one of those wall adapters that measure power consumption backwards it will read megative watts being consumed?04:08
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villagerTiagoTiago: in theory, it should.04:09
DocScrutinizerVoltage=force, current=volume/distance04:10
villagerof course the electronics may not be designed for that...04:10
DocScrutinizerVoltage=force, current=volume/distance per time unit04:10
villagerTiagoTiago: if you have a solar panel on your roof and pump electricity *into* the power grid instead of out, you get negative watt consumption and the power company pays you, if they allow that kind of thing04:11
TiagoTiagoVoltage is like pressure difference, Amperage is like  flowrate; how is it possible for it to flow backwards accross the pressure gradient?04:11
DocScrutinizerif you got a garden hose, the voltage is the pressure in PSI/ATM, and the current is the liters/s that are running thru it04:11
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DocScrutinizeryou're never using the same to trstpoints for current and voltage probing04:12
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DocScrutinizervoltage of a battery is between + and - contact. current is from one of those thru your amperemeter to the consuming circuit04:13
DocScrutinizersame two04:13
DocScrutinizeryou're never using the same two trestpoints for current and voltage probing04:13
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DocScrutinizerfail *sigh*04:14
villagerTiagoTiago: I think you just need an even higher voltage from the charger, then the current will flow into the battery without changing the battery's voltage04:14
DocScrutinizervolzage is like pressure difference (I got 1024 mBar here, pressure difference between athmosphere and that vacuum part of the mercury glass tube), how comes there's still water flowing OUT of the tap?04:16
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DocScrutinizersimple answer: pressure of water in the pipe is even higher than those 1024mBar04:17
TiagoTiagoOk, consider two water boxes connected by a hose at the bottom, if the two boxes are on the same level Voltage and Amperage are at zero, now if you raise box A, or manually put more water in it, or  activate a pump the hose is going thru so that it pumps water to box B,  Voltage and Amperage are positive ( we will keep using box A as reference), if you do it the other way around V and A would be negative; how the hell would make one be posit04:18
TiagoTiagoive but the other negative?04:18
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DocScrutinizerboth boxes have positive Voltage/pressure, you easily can test when you drill a hole into bottom: water comes out with the pressure of that particular box04:19
TiagoTiagoNot relative to each other04:20
DocScrutinizerjust when you fill in water in one, then the pressure is higher than in the other, so there's a "voltage" across your tube04:20
villagerTiagoTiago: the battery voltage is the pressure difference between the top and bottom of *one* box, say B, not the pressure difference between box A and B... easy04:20
villagerTiagoTiago: then the voltage is always positive, regardless of current04:21
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villagerTiagoTiago: then if you're discharging, box A is lower, if you're charging, box A is higher04:21
villagerthe battery voltage will depend on how much water is in box B, but not the direction of the flow04:22
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DocScrutinizer[2011-03-17 03:13:19] <DocScrutinizer> voltage of a battery is between + and - contact. current is from one of those thru your amperemeter to the consuming circuit04:25
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DocScrutinizer[2011-03-17 03:13:57] <DocScrutinizer> you're never using the same two trestpoints for current and voltage probing04:25
DocScrutinizer(except if you're interested how much voltage drop error your Amperemeter introduces to the circuit under test)04:26
DocScrutinizerideally there is NO voltage along wires "piping" current to somewhere, and of course also not along/acros the Amperemeter04:27
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DocScrutinizerreal world is rarely ideal (except with supraconductors)04:28
DocScrutinizerbut for a basic understanding of physics you better assume it was, first approach04:28
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DocScrutinizerpretty much same way you assume the water pressure in your tapwater pipe is same before and after meter04:29
DocScrutinizerthe meter is counting the current. Well actually it integrates the current over time, and reads a volume spent04:31
DocScrutinizeryou can tell the current by watching how fast the dials spin04:31
DocScrutinizerthat's Ampere04:31
DocScrutinizerthe pressure might be high at nighttime, and rather low when every neighbour waters their lawn. But usually it doesn't become negative (as pressure of a battery never does)04:33
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DocScrutinizerstill you might decide to pump water *into* your tap, by using a pump that has higher pressure than that found inside the pipe04:34
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DocScrutinizer(beware, your neighbours probably will call homeland security!)04:35
DocScrutinizertough, if you got a wate tank on top of your roof, you for sure will pump water up (charge), and also water will come down again and flow out your tap (discharge). The pressure is the voltage, the liters/min is the current (Ampere)04:39
villagerlooks like he got disconnected again04:40
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TiagoTiagosorry, the system locked up, lemme check the log to catch up04:40
DocScrutinizermeh, too bad. Was about to elaborate about Spain where everybody got such a watertank on their roof, as central water supply is shaky. And "not enough power to charge" means the water flowing into N900 via USB is not as much as that you draw from the tap in the AV-receptacke... errr04:42
TiagoTiagoSo the voltage is the voltage of one thing, while the current is the current of somthing else?04:43
DocScrutinizerbasically yes04:44
TiagoTiagoWhy do they do it like that?04:44
DocScrutinizerbecause there's no other meaningful way to do it04:45
villagerTiagoTiago: it's not physically possible to measure voltage and current on exactly the same thing... as said, voltage and current is different04:45
TiagoTiagoSo it's like they put a pressure gage on the pipe but use a waterwheel under the faucet to measure current flow?04:46
villagervoltage is always between two points. current is not, it can be measured in a single point04:46
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: I STRICTLY DISCOURRAGE to try and probe the Ampere found in a wall mains outlet. You can probe the Volt though04:46
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TiagoTiagoIt's like measuring windspeed instead of the motion of the air atoms and molecules?04:48
DocScrutinizerchecking Ampere of a mains outlet is like bucket-measuring how many liters of water are in your waterpipe04:48
DocScrutinizerdepending on diameter of pipe this will become a rather unpleasant experience04:49
DocScrutinizerlike villager said. Current is the number of electrons passing by at ONE point / second. While Voltage is the difference of electron pressure between TWO points04:50
TiagoTiagoUsually you would measure how much current is flowing without makeing the current flow,  like placing a waterwheel in a river instead of blasting open a riverbank04:50
villagerthe ideal amperemeter is basically a shortcircuit, so a real bad idea to try on your power outlet04:50
timeless_w7ipdoc: you probably wnted 'drew' (also available in other cases is 'drawn')04:51
TiagoTiagoI thought you could measure Amps with some circuit sitting between the source and the device consuming the electricity....04:51
DocScrutinizeryes, you can04:52
villagerTiagoTiago: yes, and ideally that device has no resistance (which is why I said shortcircuit)04:52
infobottimeless_w7ip meant: doc: you probably wanted 'drew' (also available in other cases is 'drawn')04:52
TiagoTiagoand that is the same way you could measure the Volts "entering" the device's circuit04:52
DocScrutinizerbut that's because of the way this equipment works. You also can test the magnetic field around one point of a wire, and that'S a very convenient way to probe current04:52
villagerTiagoTiago: the ideal voltmeter has infinite resistance, *no* current passes through it04:53
DocScrutinizerlike no water flows out a PSI meter04:53
TiagoTiagobut if you already got your voltmeter there why not use the same input and output for measuring current flow?04:53
villageryou cannot mix the two without disrupting the circuit04:54
TiagoTiagoeven if the two are in parallel or being switched from one to the other and back very fast?04:54
DocScrutinizeryou can't plumb a water volume meter to the PSI-meter stub04:55
villagerand it would not be useful in any case, the current flowing through your voltmeter is not the current you want to measure, which is probably the current through the *rest* of the circuit04:56
DocScrutinizerand you wouldn't want to cut the current to the rest of the circuit by inserting a virtually infinite resistance voltmeter at the point where your Amperemeter was04:57
TiagoTiagoLike my example with the pressure gage on the pipe, the pressure gage is a circuit with infinite (or really big) resistance between the pipe and the ground, then you add a little turbine thingy in the pipe between the faucet to measure current flow,  why can't somthing like that be done with the electricity comming fromthe battery?04:57
DocScrutinizerit is done like that, nevertheless logically the two things are unrelated04:58
DocScrutinizerand disjunkt04:59
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TiagoTiagoIf the faucet lead to a sealed room, if the room was pressurized to the point of having more pressure than the pipes, both the current and the pressure measured values on the pipe would be negative.05:03
villagerTiagoTiago: so you have a pressure gauge to measure pressure and turbine in tap to measure flow, that's different things, what makes that different from how it's done for battery, where volt and amps is also different?05:03
TiagoTiagoNo, 'cause the values of the two always share the same sign05:04
villagerTiagoTiago: no, in the case of the pressurized room, the water pressure would be positive, and the flow would be negative05:04
TiagoTiagoBut with the battery no the N900, in the loop mode of that bq script, volts and amps don't always share the same sign05:04
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TiagoTiagoThe pressure gage is measuring the pressure difference between inside the pipe and the rest of the room05:05
TiagoTiago(forget what i said about ground)05:05
villageruh huh, but that's not what the battery gauge measures05:06
* DocScrutinizer sighs05:08
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villagerthe battery voltage measurement is more useful the way it is now, because it says how much power is left *inside* the battery, which is quite useful to know05:08
villagerbesides it's not clear what else you'd want to measure05:08
TiagoTiagoThere is no measure of the voltage difference between the battery and the device?05:09
DocScrutinizerwe're not interested in the voltage drop along the copper trace from battery to device05:09
DocScrutinizer(well, not really)05:09
DocScrutinizerit's supposed to be ~005:09
TiagoTiagoI just found it confusing that it reports volts and amps but not of the same thing, i was expecting it to provide values that could be used to calculate how many watts the device is sucking05:10
villageryou can05:10
* DocScrutinizer SIGHS05:10
TiagoTiagoYou can't calculate watts without knowing both the amps and the volts05:10
DocScrutinizergoing tru / and found across the device. You're not interested in the watts the copper trace is dissipating05:11
villageryou have both amps and volts... if you get negative watts, that means the device is charging the battery instead of draining it05:11
TiagoTiagoIf they are from different things then it's like trying to calculate someone's bodymass index by using their height but their dog's weight05:11
DocScrutinizerit's ONE thing: your device05:12
DocScrutinizerit got a plus- and a minus-pole05:12
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TiagoTiagoCurrent can't flow against the voltage05:12
DocScrutinizervoltage is between plus and minus, while current is either going into plus or coming out of minus05:13
villageras said, if you're charging, the charger has a higher voltage than the battery, so current will flow into the battery05:13
TiagoTiagounless your're measuring the voltage of somthing else instead of the circuit you're measuring the amperage05:13
villagerbut the charger voltage is not measured here05:14
villagerjust the battery voltage05:14
TiagoTiagohow can it be going to + without coming from - ?05:14
DocScrutinizerI give up05:14
TiagoTiagoI'm sorry, this thing with measuring things a different way but still saying it as if it was the same is confusing me05:15
villagercurrent can come from anywhere it is forced into the circuit, like from the power grid... doesn't have to come from the battery you're charging.05:17
timeless_w7iptiago:: let's look at something else05:17
timeless_w7ipconsider temperature05:17
timeless_w7iplet's have 3 rooms A .. B .. C05:17
timeless_w7ipIf I make the temperature in room C 50degrees05:17
timeless_w7ipand the temperature in the next room (B) 30degrees05:17
timeless_w7ipthen at some point there's going to be a transfer of heat from C to B05:18
timeless_w7ipit's going from a place with +++++ to a place with +++05:18
timeless_w7ipI could make A have a temperature of -10degrees05:18
timeless_w7ipbut it's still possible for things to go from +++++ to +++ instead of having to go to a place with -05:19
timeless_w7ipdoes that make any sense? :)05:19
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timeless_w7ipbtw, the use of + and - in electricity was actually arbitrary, it's now consistently used with + and - in a certain way05:20
timeless_w7ipbut it could have been the other way05:20
TiagoTiagoBut when we talk about volts we mean difference and not absolute values05:21
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TiagoTiagoIt turns out it is backwards, actual electrons flow from negative to positive,  but they kept it  reversed for backwards compatibility05:22
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: I told you you can not measure device Watts by bq27200. It's a dedicated battery monitor hardware. It *only* shows _battery_ voltage (between + and - of battery) and battery current in/out. Device with all the consumers and charger is on the other end05:22
DocScrutinizerthe charger also can power the device consumers directly, then this part of current will not be seen by bq2720005:24
TiagoTiagoSo there is no direct way to measure watts consumption, we can onlyestimate it by watching the effects of that consumption?05:24
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villageryes... if you remove the charger, then the two must be equal05:25
DocScrutinizeras told way above, you can plug and unplug charger. The difference in battery current is what the device actually consumes05:25
DocScrutinizererr, is what the charger supplies05:26
DocScrutinizercurrent*volt of battery == current*volt of device sans charger, so this is a pretty accurate reading05:26
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DocScrutinizerbut if device sucks 1A, and charger supplies 700mA, then battery will read 300mA DIScharge, even while charger plugged in05:28
DocScrutinizerthis is what bq27200 will show you: 300mA05:28
DocScrutinizerDISCHARGE (and a warning will pop up "charger doesn't supply enough energy" OWTTE)05:29
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TiagoTiagoCurrent goes negative because it is measured between battery and device, but voltage stays positive 'cause it is measure between the battery + and the battery -  ,  alright, i can live with that05:32
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TiagoTiagoMakes lots more sense than negative watts05:33
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villagerwell, negative watts does make sense05:33
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TiagoTiagoNot for me, current can't flow against the pressure difference05:34
villagerwatts is the flow of energy... so positive could mean energy is flowing out of the battery, and negative is energy is flowing into the battery from the charger05:34
DocScrutinizernegative watts do make as much sense as do negative voltages and currents05:35
TiagoTiagounless you're mixing apples and oranges05:35
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: you are mixing apples with oranges. We never said voltage is along the wire from battery to device05:36
DocScrutinizerwe actually always explained those two physical values are largely unrelated05:36
villagerhow many times do we have to tell you? the charger puts on a BIGGER pressure than the battery, therefore current flows "backwards" into the battery05:36
TiagoTiagoI've never heard it was possible for them to have opposite signs in the same length of wire05:37
TiagoTiagovolt is relative, not absolute05:37
villagerbut the measurement between the battery poles (as opposed to the voltage between battery and charger) will measure how much power is delivered to/from the battery05:37
DocScrutinizerI honestly have to leave now, to keep my mood up05:38
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TiagoTiagoHow can it flow against the pressure difference?05:39
villager[04:36]<villager> how many times do we have to tell you? the charger puts on a BIGGER pressure than the battery, therefore current flows "backwards" into the battery05:39
villagerthe pressure difference forces the current that way, into the battery05:40
TiagoTiagoCurrent and Voltage can't have opposit signs unless you're measuring different circuits05:40
villagerlet's say you have a 5V battery, and the charger can deliver 10V, and the negative poles of both are both grounded. Then you have three levels: CHARGER+ = 10V, BATTERY+ = 5V, GROUND = 0V... since current always flows from a higher potential to a lower, this forces current towards the + pole of the battery05:41
villagerdisconnect the charger and put in a machine you want to run, and then the current will of course flow from the battery + pole to the battery - pole05:42
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DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: PLEASE LISTEN!!! current is in ONE point. Volatge is between TWO points. The both are first instance COMPLETELY unrelated, as in there's no voltage associated to a current05:44
villagerthen the voltage between + and - on the battery is always 5V, but the current can be reversed05:44
villagerjust by attaching the charger...05:44
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TiagoTiagoIf the one point where you measure current is between the two points you use to measure voltage then the sign will always match05:46
DocScrutinizerit just happens bq27200 meassures voltage and current of the battery, it as well could measure voltage of the microphone if that would help us more that the current setup. But voltage displayed by bq27200 is NOT responsable or related to the current displayed there05:46
villagerTiagoTiago: well, you cannot measure current inside the battery, only outside of it...05:49
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TiagoTiagoif the one point isn't between the two points then you're not measuring the properties of the same thing, you can't use thos two values to calculate wattage, it's like the bodymass index with your dog's weight05:49
villagerTiagoTiago: there's a physical law that says that unless the circuit has branches, the current is always the same anywhere in the circuit, so you can measure the current anywhere you want05:51
villagerif the circuit has branches, the total current through each branch must add up to be equal to what it would have been if it was not05:52
TiagoTiagoWhat if the branches lead to or from outside the circuit?05:53
DocScrutinizerc'mon please stop that nonsense now. It's becoming silly or annoying or dunno what05:53
villagerif there's a current through those, then it must still add up05:54
villagerconservation of energy05:54
DocScrutinizervillager: don't run into that trap again. Voltage is measured between two points, but given there's no line between those two points (as a voltmeter is of infinite resistance) there's also no location "between" those two points. Current and voltage measurements are unrelated, and connecting them without referring to a particular background aka circuit makes no sense05:59
villagerDocScrutinizer: yes, but I feel such technicalities would not be helpful to talk about right now...05:59
DocScrutinizernothing has the faintest look like it'S helpful here06:00
villagerwell, perhaps I should be getting back to doing something useful anyway06:00
TiagoTiagoI do understand that if you ignore a part of the system the signs can diverge, but on a closed system the signs should always agree06:02
villagerokay, then consider the battery the part of the system under measurement, and the battery is not a closed system, and let's leave it at that...06:03
pupnikto generate configure, i run "autoconf" which uses, correct?06:15
pupnikwhen i try that, i get a totally different configure from the one shipped with libSDL06:16
pupnik958937 Mar 17 05:16 configure.orig06:16
pupnik266176 Mar 17 05:16 configure06:16
* DocScrutinizer mumbles diff06:17
DocScrutinizerthough those filesizes are friggin scary both of them06:18
pupnikok "autoreconf" command creates a working configure06:19
DocScrutinizerautotools are a PITA anyway06:19
njsfamen DocScrutinizer06:23
njsfyet, despite being a PITA, cumbersome, and sometimes wrong, they are still kinda the best in town in terms of comprehensive support for environment detection06:24
derfI don't really think that's true.06:25
derfYou have to put just as much time to get it to work on another platform as always, because if you haven't actually tested it, it won't.06:25
njsfderf: I "kinda" agree for projects with few dependencies. With projects with huge dependencies, the network effects of those dependencies also providing ac .m4 files is awesome06:34
derfNo, because if your platform is at all unusual, then half of them will break, too.06:35
TiagoTiagoalright, imm going to sleep, cya06:35
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njsfI think you are looking at it from a distro perspective, not from a project developer perspective ?06:39
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derfNo, I am a project developer.06:41
njsfI am too06:41
njsfI will give you we do spend a good amount of time on our autoconf06:42
njsfbut I have to also realized that I would have to spend A LOT more if I coded by ourselves all the dependencies detection we have06:42
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MacDrunksup a;\ll06:54
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Geophithi all07:00
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lofty306the joys of skype ppl you dont know just call outta the blue07:33
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DocScrutinizerit's ludicrous they report dosages like 1mSv/h for the Fukushima plant a bit off from the reactor buildings, but OTOH the helicopter action had to get stopped yesterday due to radiation levels too high, and today they have equipped the helicopers with Pb shielding for the pilots so they won't get hurt when flying at a level of maybe 100m above the site. This sounds more like 1MSv/h rather than 1mSv/h07:45
pupnikoff the site upwind is much less than above the burning building07:50
DocScrutinizerlofty306: (<lofty306> GE sending 10 gas turbine generators to japan) so is that supposed to help on the FUKU-site? Doesn't Japan have such things themselves? I heard they brought generators to there on day0 or day1, but it didn't work, for unknown reasons. Now they come up with big news they hope to complete a powerline to FUKU today, and start the cooling again. It's really all so three-stooges, freaking scary sh*t07:53
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DocScrutinizerpupnik: winds would spread particles that aren't any dangerous *outside* the heli for the pilot inside. Plus a lead shielding wouldn't help at all for that07:54
pupnikgamma rays penetrate aluminum etc07:57
DocScrutinizeryeah sure, but the mere distance from those microscopic particles...07:57
pupnika large area is radioactive with high energy rays.  sheilding is helpful07:58
pupnikand psychologically as well07:59
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pupnikand they would not be flying at 1,000,000Sv/h08:00
DocScrutinizerif the radiation level a 100..200m horizontally off the reactor is at 1mSv then I can't see any serious danger for a heli pilot hoovering a 100m above that08:00
lofty306DocScrutinizer, totaly 3stooges08:00
lofty306heat rises prob taking the radiation wwith it08:01
DocScrutinizersure, but then a Pb shielding is totally useless, esp when placed under the pilot seat only08:01
pupnikthey 1mSv/h is like 5-10 chest x-rays per hour08:02
lofty306yay x rays08:02
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DocScrutinizeryeah, or like living in arbitrary clean places for 1 year08:03
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lofty306i just realized that the  Pegatron tablet is 11.6"'08:07
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ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, I was wondering if the power situation was similar fuckup as at one of sweden's reactors08:23
ShadowJKWhere all internal backup power failed because the components to synchronize with the grid frequency were identical and failed, and refused to cold boot08:24
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doc|homeTwo army helicopters made four attempts to drop seawater on unit 3, but this did not appear accurate enough to be effective. Tepco said in a news conference that radiation readings had dropped from 3.780 millisieverts to 3.752 millisieverts, so the effect at present seems marginal at best.08:25
doc|homedo the japanese use . where we use ,?08:25
doc|homebecause... that'd be baaad.08:25
ruskiedoc|home, sounds like that . is a thousand separator08:27
lofty306a fireboat would be nice but wooould need to be manned08:27
ShapeshifterIs there a gps app that supports offline maps? I'm in singapore and I want to download the whole city while on wlan, all zoom levels, or at least the higher ones and then use it offline08:29
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Shapeshiftergps is secondary (I'm aware locating is slow/impossible without AGPS) but I at least want the maps08:31
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DocScrutinizerwell, I'd consider it best practice to avoid 1.234 and 1,234 - just use 1.2340 and 1234.0 and 123400.0 and then 1,234,56708:32
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DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: marble08:34
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ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: I'll check it out, thanks08:37
DocScrutinizerlofty306: ?? do not use thousand separators on numbers <7digits, do not use 3 decimals08:37
lofty306im still lost08:38
DocScrutinizerwell, obviously08:39
lofty306me runs hides08:39
DocScrutinizerbetter that08:39
* lofty306 runs hides08:40
doc|homelofty306: so . = thousand separator?08:40
doc|homein .jp08:40
DocScrutinizernow is that 1000.0 or is that 1,0008:41
lofty306oh i dont know what they use08:41
doc|homethat's what I was asking08:41
lofty306ahhhh :)08:41
ShapeshifterI like ' as a thousand separator08:42
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lofty306it ws almost like you asked the first part in another channel08:42
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ruskiehmm apparently japan uses a decimal point so 1.345 would be 1-point-34508:43
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doc|homeruskie: thank fuck08:44
* doc|home goes to bed08:44
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* ShadowJK 's arduino is waiting for him at the post office08:46
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lofty306ShadowJK, for reprap or other projects?08:49
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ShadowJKthing took bloody long enough to get here I forgot what I was going to do08:50
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meceif an N900 shuts down (usually) a few seconds after charger cable is removed, should one expect hardware problems?08:59
infobotmece meant: if an N900 shuts down (usually) a few seconds after charger cable is removed, should one suspect hardware problems?08:59
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DocScrutinizermece: completely fsckd battery I suspect09:05
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meceDocScrutinizer, apparently tested with 2 different batteries. It's not my phone so I don't have all the details currently.09:06
DocScrutinizerthen it gets hard to diagnose this09:06
lofty306DocScrutinizer, do you know of a battery charger to charge the n900 batteries outside of the phone?09:06
DocScrutinizerthere are plenty09:07
lofty306is the peron acidently grabbung the phone on the power button?09:07
mecebootreason: sw_rst09:07
lofty306ive done that more than once when unplugging09:08
mecelofty306, lol no.09:08
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DocScrutinizerwell, swap batteries. reflash. clean battery contacts of device. send in for repair. - simple like that09:20
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DocScrutinizeraah, and of course make sure it's actually charging battery! use to confirm09:22
DocScrutinizere.g. an external charger providing dunno 3.8V could operate the device for days, but never charge battery09:23
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ShadowJKAlso check for overclocking (don't) and smartreflex (don't) :P09:25
ShadowJK(charging has side effects on the way the CPU is run)09:25
lofty306whats smartreflex?09:29
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DocScrutinizerSmartReflex technologies are a broad range of intelligent and adaptive hardware and software techniques that dynamically control voltage, frequency and power based on device activity, modes of operation and temperature.09:31
ShadowJKIt's a thing some people find on forums and then turn on09:31
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DocScrutinizerhere smartreflex as ShadowJK used it means the automatic switching of core supply voltages, without any software controlling that. It gets enabled via some sysnode09:32
lofty306ahh.. and it mucks things all up?09:32
DocScrutinizerit's said to cause instabilities on N900, yes09:33
ShadowJKIt's disabled-by-default for a reason09:33
DocScrutinizerfor the same reason Nokia doesn't ship the device OC'd to 1000MHz - they know their hardware09:34
lofty306im not one to try power mgmt things just for the hell of it though if i had a spare i'd proob be more apt to do alot of things09:34
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lofty306brb glasses filthy09:36
DocScrutinizeryou could argue they might have missed or dropped some small points and so SR *should* be enabled, but I doubt they are that incompetent09:36
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ShadowJKI'd probably myself backup everything (including  music, videos and photos) and reflash just to check, and if it still does it I'd excercise warranty09:36
DocScrutinizerfirst check charger!09:37
DocScrutinizerfirst of all09:37
* ShadowJK sleepsä09:37
DocScrutinizercheck if it does the same on PC09:37
DocScrutinizerof course a nuked bme could well explain such behaviour too09:38
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DocScrutinizerbut you'd notice that, by borked charging notification09:39
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DocScrutinizerwell, diagnose by proxy is a nuisance09:40
DocScrutinizerplus I'm not sure mece is listening at all09:41
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mecewas afk, I am now.. what what?09:41
meceok lemme read the comments09:42
DocScrutinizer( <mece> bootreason: sw_rst ) what now? shutdown or reboot?09:42
meceyes.. ok. Don't think he has smartreflex and it's not oc'd09:43
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lofty306DocScrutinizer, did any more usb ports come off after the initial rash of them ?09:46
DocScrutinizermece: if that's shutdown then I suspect battery doesn't get charged. Plug switched off device via cable to PC, do not "power up"09:46
lofty306and were thoes pre productioom ones?09:47
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DocScrutinizerthere's an occasional fatality report every 2 weeks09:47
mecelofty306, mine came off and it was retail.09:47
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mecelofty306, the newer devices have the same problem.09:47
DocScrutinizermece: if it's reboot then probably sw error, triggered by dsme09:48
lofty306i filed the hooks off my micro usb endss09:48
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DocScrutinizerthat's largely useless09:48
meceit's shutdown09:48
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DocScrutinizerso charge via PC, in ACT_DEAD. Watch LED. Should turn green after some hours. Then power up and unplug09:50
DocScrutinizerpreferably run prior to unplug, save the printout09:51
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DocScrutinizereven *during* unplug, on a ssh, with loop period 509:51
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meceok, I'll ask him to do that. Not sure he understands it all though.09:52
DocScrutinizerlook at this for an example how the printout should look like
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DocScrutinizerthe instructions are easy, once he managed to get the tools installed:  plug powered down device to PC and watch it charge (amber LED ->green). When green, switch on, then log in via WLAN/ssh, and do ""; 5". Then unplug. Send copy of the log printed at ssh terminal09:56
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meceDocScrutinizer, nice. I'll give him the instructions09:57
* mece goes afk10:00
* DocScrutinizer too10:00
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vadmesteHello everybody! I am using MADDE for Maemo 5, and it seems that QEMU is too slow (maybe due to its animation effects).. Any tricks to overcome this slowness ?10:01
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DocScrutinizertell me, isn't Sony a japanese company? Don't they build all sorts of professional Video equipment? So WTF isn't there a single generator or car battery powered surveilance cam sending a 24/7 live stream of every critical point of Fukushima?10:06
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DocScrutinizeralso I thought it's been Toyota or somesuch company that had those funny little andoids. The damn should have enough bots over there to send some even inside the hot blocks10:07
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DocScrutinizerit's plain incredible they play "3 stooges save the day at a dead nuklear plant" since 6 days now10:08
nidOwhats more incredible is the pure sensationalism and lack of much fact in whats being reported at most news outlets10:09
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AsiQueMohammadAG: ping10:10
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DocScrutinizernidO: well, >>The head of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission said that the fuel pool at unit 4 had run dry and as a result, radiation levels at the plant were "extremely high". TEPCO denied that the pool had run dry and said "the condition is stable" at unit 4<< [] doesn't exactly help to stop the rumour and rant and speculation. News outlets face a stampede of10:16
DocScrutinizercustomers asking for better news. They can't state "we got only shit. That's it" two times a day10:16
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DocScrutinizeractually the lack of facts, hard facts, at each and every announcement of tepco, JP gvmt and JP atomic authority, that's the most amazing thing10:19
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RST38hDoc: Once again, it is a hierarchical society10:21
DocScrutinizerbetter don't say anything and act like 3 stooges, than give full disclosure and reveal how everybody got lied at since 30 years10:21
nidODocScrutinizer: the point actually is more that that report rightly states that the spent fuel pool was low on water, which they tried to refill via helicopter - yet most news outlets have been reporting they were trying to dump water onto reactor cores a-la chernobyl10:21
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nidOwhen the cores arent even exposed.10:21
ruskiesadly most media now-a-days tries to be sensationalistic10:21
RST38hDoc: Whoever stands up and gives full disclosure will be automatically assigned to be the guilty party10:22
RST38hHence no disclosure.10:22
DocScrutinizerI most recently learnt there might be a SpentFuelPool at block3 as well10:23
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RST38hEach block has a spent fuel pool10:23
nidOtbh, the "good news" is that these 40 year-old reactors survived an earthquake several times more powerful than they were designed to without a scratch, and have only fucked up because the backup diesel generators and backup backup generators were washed away10:23
DocScrutinizerso they actually got 6 reactor blocks plus 6 SFP and while they were staring at block1,3 reactor, the SFP's at #4, #3, #4, #6 are BBQing their stupid asses10:25
DocScrutinizer#4, #3, #5, #610:26
DocScrutinizerI just wonder if and when the SFPs at #1, #2 will catch fire10:26
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DocScrutinizernidO: near miss. "3" higher and the bullet had only messed up his hairstyling. Almost luck"10:29
lofty306too embarasing and the japanese dooont like being embarrased.... also doooooont want any video of what they might of done wrong when allthis goes to court10:29
lofty306they dont want to make the BP mmistake10:29
DocScrutinizerthey are so stupid they don't realize they already are "dead" and there's no face left to lose10:30
DocScrutinizerlike in WW-II10:31
DocScrutinizerbeter die than surrender10:31
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RST38hOnce again, not stupid, just different from you10:32
lofty306they said there is 130ton spent pool at #4 90ton at #3, #2, #1 150ton aat #5 and 160 ton at#610:32
RST38hAnd I doubt good old Germans behaved any different at the end of WWII10:32
RST38hAlso having a strictly hierarchical society10:33
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meceWtf? Discussion taken a turn for the godwin?10:33
DocScrutinizerumm, well point taken, though I don't agree 100%10:33
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RST38hmece: Nah10:33
meceaah japan. ok. I just opened the windows and saw wwii and germans :D10:34
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DocScrutinizerthere must be a reason they were allied in WW-II10:35
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DocScrutinizerthough to me it seems over there really little has changed in mentality since, even when here not everything is sunshine10:36
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DocScrutinizerwell, in WW-II they've had tackled the friggin plant on day0 with 30000 voluntary kamikaze soldiers that had created an auxiliary powerline from next town with their own bodies10:39
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lofty306now the seem lazy taking a week10:40
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lofty306prob waitiing for the ge gensets10:41
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DocScrutinizerI think RST38h has hit the point, when the generators failed they probably looked at the batteries, then cooked a tea and decided by a game of majong who's the asshead to call 'dady' and ask what to do now10:49
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DocScrutinizeras that's their only option anyway, really. No at-site competence, everything has to get nodded off by dady10:51
DocScrutinizerand the only stupids were those who thought plans for emergency management based on such a strictly hierarchical structure could ever work10:53
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DocScrutinizertwo german engineers visited blocj 5 or 6 when the quake stroke. Was really funny to listen to their reports how the japanese acted despite a mag9 quake going on10:55
RST38hDoc: Actually, this is not how it works in these societies10:55
RST38hDoc: When they figured out that the things are bad, their manager must have told them to act lively, carry water in buckets if needed10:56
RST38hDoc: Then prayed to his gods and called his immediate manager to report the clusterfuck10:56
RST38hDoc: In the most neutral, optimistic tone possible ("A minor problem with overheating, we are working on it, will be fixed in no time")10:57
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DocScrutinizerand now we are at the rot of the issue10:59
DocScrutinizerroot even10:59
DocScrutinizerrotten root maybe10:59
RST38hAbsolutely the same algorithm will be executed at each level of the hierarchy, actually10:59
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DocScrutinizerthere's no room for asian politeness when messing with a critical reactor10:59
RST38hSo, yea, you can call it a root, but it is happening at the whole length of the root10:59
RST38hOnce, again, it is *not* "asian politeness". Germans or Soviets would exercise absolutely the same scheme11:00
DocScrutinizerI'm severly afraid you are right on this one11:01
RST38hWith small differences in the outcome (Japanese would commit seppuku, Germans would be shot, Soviets imprisoned in Siberia)11:01
lofty306the 3stooges scheme?11:01
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lofty306wil time to sennnd in HomerSimpson11:03
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DocScrutinizernah, that's for sure a cultural difference. Here in D at least the man with the hat on would eventually get a brain and ask military to *immediately* clean the roads with tanks, use 20 sikorky skycranes to drop generator containers there, and have the navy sent a huge ferry to provide power in the long term and unlimited amount11:03
RST38hDoc: I am not talking about NOW, I am talking about 30s-40s11:04
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RST38hDoc: I mean, in 1986, they also did not marinate the news for more than a few days11:04
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RST38hIn comparison, for some 60-70s Soviet disasters we *still* do not have full disclosure11:06
lofty306heh... the soviets the meltdowwn kings11:06
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DocScrutinizerthe critically kings11:07
DocScrutinizerwasn't there a whole mine to blow up with some massive H2 or even criticality event, in the 50s/60s, in east USSR?11:08
ruskieI guess I'll have to put all this on ignore if I don't want to hear about it.... getting tired of it...11:08
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lofty306they put out a mine fire with a nuke11:09
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DocScrutinizerRST38h: >>On 10 December 1968, Mayak (Russia),...<<
DocScrutinizer>> The shift supervisor then deceived the radiation control supervisor and entered the room of the incident and possibly attempted to pour the solution down a floor drain...11:12
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RST38hDoc: Just one of many11:13
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RST38hDoc: See? Exactly acording to the scenario I just described!11:13
* RST38h strokes his crystal balls and cackles11:13
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lofty306lol poours it doowwn the drain11:15
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alteregoAnyone having probs with tmo?11:24
alteregoAh, started working again.11:24
DocScrutinizerMEH, JP minister: "extremely high radiation levels, 4mSv/h" Sissies!11:25
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DocScrutinizerI doubt you'd notice *any* adverse immediate effects at 4mSv/h11:26
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DocScrutinizerafter 200h you probably get real problems11:26
DocScrutinizerlike the liquidators in Chernobyl got after 30s11:27
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lofty306alterego, i drop off tmo now and then aand haave to just reboot the thiing and all is fine11:32
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lofty306though i think that is the software11:32
alteregoNeah, the browser sometimes doesn't refresh properly.11:33
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alterego jus ttyped in t.m.o again and it worked11:33
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flexxxvHey can I integrate my Maemo SDK scratchbox enviroment to eclipse?(So that it just executes inside the scratchbox)11:38
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flexxxvAnd another question: Is there any qt designer that can preview directly in maemo 5 style?11:40
crashanddiewhat is it with stupid newbie questions these days? Is Google broken or something?11:40
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flexxxvcrashanddie: hmm. no. I did some research. I found some answers. some where for maemo 4. I couldn't find any qt designer that does what I would like. Maybee I'm not doing enough research. But I hate to set everything up to see after it that there is an better solution...11:43
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crashanddiewoops, wrong button11:44
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chem|stflexxxv: qt creator has11:49
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flexxxvchem|st: thx! I tried qt designer...11:50
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RST38bisEducation Department officials are threatening school principals with lawsuits if they fail to monitor and curb students' lunchtime chat and evening Facebook time for expressing ideas and words that are deemed to be harassment of some students.11:53
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merlin1991morning Venemo12:20
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Venemo_N900hey merlin199112:22
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SpeedEvil vbnmkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkm..,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,.l12:28
FauxFauxThat's what merlin1991 is called at the weekend.12:31
SpeedEvilThat was me dropping a cup - thankflly empty - on my keyboard looks like.12:32
alteregoI'd imagine it'd be a lot longer and more interesting if the cup was full12:33
alteregowith intermittant "f*ck" and "b*stard coffee"12:33
FauxFauxA being rewired to star 2/3rds of the time?  It's more likely than you think.12:33
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flexxxvstupid question: how should I load dependencies into qtcreator?12:50
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RST38bisstupid answer from google:
RST38biscan be obtained by typing "qtcreator dependencies" into
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flexxxvRST38bis: that makes me feel silly12:55
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flexxxvSo I need to load in packages like libvorbis manually? If I would build it normally under scratchbox I would do apt-get install libvorbis-dev12:58
flexxxvI think I need to learn some morge basic knowledge, before trying too complex things ;)12:59
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FIQ|n900excuse me, what time is it?13:01
FIQ|n900my phone resetted randomly, and don't have any clock near13:01
FIQ|n900(in GMT+1)13:01
ruskieThu Mar 17 12:02:42 CET 201113:02
flexxxvsry. I thought it used server time13:03
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lardmanmorning chaps13:18
* lardman wonders why qsql error messages are so unexplanatory, perhaps it's just sqlite in general13:20
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pupnik_morning lardman :)13:27
lardmanhi pupnik_13:27
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flexxxvI really feel stupid... How can I install dependencies I need in the maemo build enviroment of qt creator? I can build for desktop with no problems. Or am I trying it the wrong way? Sry, for these noob question.13:28
pupnik_04:56 <+k*****> same with the cryptic error messages - its to keep SQL ppl high paid13:30
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lardmanflexxxv: what kinds are things are missing?13:30
pupnik_flexxxv: i've read from someone else that the new qt creator somehow lacks the n900 build target13:30
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flexxxvI have the build target. But I need some libs like libvorbis, liogg... So if I compile for Desktop they are of cause installed but for maemo not. I can't figure out how to install them.13:32
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lardmanflexxxv: are you using scratchbox? Or MADDE?13:33
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flexxxvhmm. I just installed qtcreator and selected maemo build target13:34
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flexxxvso probatly MADDE?13:34
lardmanGod knows, I just make sure I have the right stuff installed in my desktop system13:34
lardmanthough this is a little troublesome for things like Qt Mobility13:35
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trxhow can i capture my n900 screen in a video?13:35
flexxxvI also have the maemo SDK with scratchbox installed, but I thought nokia qt SDK would be the better way13:35
trxare there any tools for that in the repo?13:36
lardmanI think you can point Qt Creator at the sb install too13:36
lardmantrx: that's certainly doable but don't have any info offhand13:37
trxok, i'll look into it, thank you13:37
lardmancan be done with gstreamer directly afair, but I guess someone will have packaged it up13:37
flexxxvlardman: that sounds like a nice Idea :D13:38
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lardmanargh, I do so hate SQL13:45
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lardmanwhat's wrong with this?: INSERT INTO tablelist (sqlTableName, prettyTableName) VALUES ('test', 'test');13:56
lardmanhmm, damn, I see the problem, case issues13:57
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pupnik_lardman: sql is something that changes you.  not sure if it's for the better14:10
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lardmanI've no clue why adding in NOT NULL means my table fails to be generated14:11
nidOwhats the query14:14
pupnik_maybe all elements are NULL14:16
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lardmanwhat I really want to do is create a primary key column which autoincrements14:26
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lardmanbut if I remove the NOT NULL bit I get a NULL value in that column, which is probably not very useful as a primary key14:26
lardmanotoh if I add it in, the table isn't created, which is even less useful ;)14:27
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* lardman tries INTEGER PRIMARY KEY ASC14:28
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trxlardman :
trxthis works for men14:31
macmaNhey guys14:32
macmaNwondering about CFLAGS for N90014:32
macmaNCFLAGS = -O2 -mcpu=cortex-a8 -mtune=cortex-a8 -fomit-frame-pointer -fsigned-char -mfpu=neon -mfloat-abi=softfp  = win?14:33
lardmanthanks trx will give it a go14:34
lardmanmacmaN: try and see14:35
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crashanddieOn the N90014:36
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macmaNgot it from here
macmaNn8x0 was correct14:38
lardmancrashanddie: it is a cortex-a8 of coruse14:38
crashanddieI get confused with all the types of ARM there are14:39
lardmannp me too14:39
macmaNahh so the cflags are good14:39
macmaNok going for it14:39
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lardmanmacmaN: you'll need to benchmark or find someone who has done some benchmarking14:40
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macmaNlardman: not a performance question actually, just trying to figure out how to create a crosscompiler14:41
lardmanthat'll be fun ;)14:42
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macmaNabout to put gentoo prefix on it actually14:42
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lardmanbloody sql14:43
lardmanstill not working14:43
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crashanddielardman, what's the problem, doc?14:49
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lardmanjust qsql not liking my sql commands14:50
lardmanand giving crap errors14:50
lardmanand just generally being crap14:50
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pupnik10 years ago i could have helped with the sql14:52
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nealHow does the N900 do AGPS?  The N900 does not support reporting neighboring cellular towers.  What is it using instead?14:53
pupnikthe connected cell tower?14:53
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nealpupnik: You can't do triangulation with one tower...14:54
pupnikthe tower knows its location14:54
lardmannor does it do triangulation afaiu14:54
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lardmanThe AGPS functionality consists of the N900 obtaining ephemeris and alamanac data for its current location as returned by the connected cell tower, afaiu14:55
lardmanephemeris being the location dependent one there14:55
nealI see14:56
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nealI'm actually a bit confused.14:58
nealThe agps info is not sent via a TCP/IP connection.14:58
lardmanhow so?14:58
lardmanyes it is14:59
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lardmanthe N900 talks to a SUPL server somewhere, e.g. the Google one or the Nokia one, and tells it the cellid that it's connected to14:59
nealonly the cell id?14:59
lardmanyes, afaiu, I know that SUPL can do other things, but I don't think those are used here15:00
nealI thought you just said it downloads the ephemeris and almanac data.15:00
lardmanyes, but the ephemeris data are location dependant15:00
lardmanso the SUPL server needs to know what to generate/send to the device15:00
nealAnd that's what it is getting from the supl server?15:00
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lardmanthere are other things that SUPL can do afair, like taking parts of the recorded GPS signal and brute forcing a location from them, but I don't think that's necessary if you have a rough location provided by the cell tower15:01
lardmanand is also significantly more computationally expensive I'd guess15:02
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neallardman: thanks for your help.15:05
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lardmanneal: np15:07
lardmanneal: what's your interest in this anyway?15:08
nealI'm building a location-aware network manager15:08
nealAnd I'd like more information than just the currently connected tower.15:09
nealUnfortunately, the modem on the N900 appears to either not implement or block queries for neighboring towers.15:10
nealI'm trying to figure out other inexpensive (in terms of battery power) sources of location information.15:10
neal(I don't need the actual geographical location.  I just need environmental features to create a fingerprint.)15:11
lardmanso you're planning wifi fingerprinting too?15:11
nealIf you have some ideas, I'd appreciate them.15:11
nealwifi scanning is expensive15:11
pupniki've always wanted to visit japan15:11
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pupniki bet you can get excellent deals for tourist packages right now15:11
lardmanpupnik: especially if you have lead underpants and/or a degree in nuclear engineering15:12
lardmanneal: I think everything will be expensive really15:12
nealneighboring towers are free15:12
nealassuming you can get them :-)15:12
lardmanneal: shame you can't get other nearby cell tower info though15:12
lardmanthe info must lurk in the modem somewhere, just how to get it out if possible15:13
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BCMMneal: measure location of the sun, using the camera and accelerometers. compare with clock to get location. :)15:13
BCMMyes, i know the accelerometers aren't anything like accurate enough15:13
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pupniki have nuclear certification yes15:13
lardmanBCMM: if we had a digital compass that might work15:14
BCMMlardman: how is a compass the thing that makes a difference to that?15:14
nealOne of the Nokia guys working on ofono told me "You cannot get neighbor cell info on N900. The ISI command used to fetch15:14
nealthe info is blocked in N900.You cannot get neighbor cell info on N900. The ISI command used to fetch15:14
lardmanBCMM: direction of sun15:14
lardmanBCMM: otherwise you'd need to watch the entire day's worth to work out your latitude15:15
lardmanactually that's wrong isn't it15:15
BCMMmaybe, but i can see the correct answer in my head now15:15
BCMMall you'd get from that would be the elevation of the sun15:16
BCMMthe angle between "down" and the sun15:16
BCMMwithout knowing which direction teh sun is, that describes a circle of possible locations on the earth15:16
BCMMprobably, this is based only on visualising it15:16
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BCMMso yeah, you would need a compass too15:17
lcuk2lardman, did you ever source a bluetooth compass?15:18
lardmanif you can wait for noon, then you know some part of the problem, but that's not a very fast update rate15:18
lardmanlcuk2: nope15:19
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lardmanBCMM: basically using the n900 as a sextant15:19
BCMMlardman: yeah :)15:19
lcuklardman, how does your phone know it is noon!15:19
lardmansun is at highest point in the sky15:20
lardmanso it would have to watch the sun all day15:20
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trxwhat if there is an eclipse? :)15:21
* lardman wonders whether he should switch this app to C++ rather than Python, is getting messy15:21
lardmantrx: well you could keep a db of eclipses for the next 100 years and use that info to locate yourself15:22
AsiQuetrx: u can always use MADDE :-)15:22
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achipaif it's messy in python, it would be drain bramage in C++ :P15:22
AsiQuei think you mean... brain damage :-!15:22
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lcuklardman, pure ASM15:24
lardmanhmm, perhaps15:24
trxbetter use plain HEX15:24
lcukpunchcard reader on n900!15:25
keriono, even better15:25
lardmanwell the only reason to stick with Python really is things like beautiful souop15:25
kerios/beautiful soup/lxml/15:25
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kerioharder, better, faster, stronger15:25
kerioespecially faster15:25
lardmanit's the harder part that I don't like the sound of ;)15:26
kerioand the "fix broken shit" thing is just slightly less good than beautiful soup15:26
kerionah, they're about the same in difficulty :)15:26
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achipalardman: lcuk: actually, if you know the time, the length/direction of the Sun's shadow already tells you your latitude15:26
achipa(looking down, eh ? :) )15:27
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kerioplus, BS is discontinued15:27
lcukstylus makes a nice sundial!15:27
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achipalcuk: lardman: though the ultimate geek-way for getting latitude would be from measuring the coriolis effect :)15:29
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lcukachipa, that is an incomplete solution though, users on non rotating planets will be unable to use it15:31
pupniklooks like paris-tokyo airplane flight subjects you to 6 microsievert per hour15:31
pupnik"city official said 0.809 of a micro-sievert was measured between 10am and 11am in Tokyo today"15:31
pupnikif that's a representative sample, the flight to tokyo is 8x more radioactive than staying in 'nuclear tokyo'15:32
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achipalcuk: there are no non-rotating planets :)15:34
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SpeedEvilpupnik: Compared with what nominal background?15:36
* SpeedEvil hates ass-hats that don't specify units. 15:36
FauxFauxThe UK press are having great fun printing the mSv scale, all the way up to EVERYONE DIES, with a tiny zoomed in bit at the bottom saying "actually, we're here".15:36
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SpeedEvilFauxFaux: link? Not seen.15:38
yaccAnyone got an idea why my N900 has troubles connecting to a WPA2-PSK(AES) Netgear WNR3500L (Netgear firmware) via WLAN?15:38
FauxFauxSpeedEvil: Apparently publishing the same thing on dead tree and on the internet is too challenging for sensationalist papers.15:40
pupnikSpeedEvil: it's rational to compare current elevated levels to other commonplace elevated levels15:40
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lardmanachipa: I like it :)15:43
lardmankerio: thanks15:44
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korhojoayacc, no idea, but i suggest you stick a better fw on it if it can take one.15:44
* lardman wonders whether to keep coding or just go outside as the sun is out15:45
korhojoaalso, i suggest switching to enterprise wpa215:45
keriokeep coding!15:45
korhojoalardman, coding15:45
yacckorhojoa, for my home WLAN?15:45
keriokorhojoa: why enterprise?15:45
korhojoathe sun will give you skin cancer15:45
korhojoayacc, yes15:45
korhojoakerio, security15:45
yacckorhojoa, lol.15:45
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korhojoai got it to work, so you can too.15:45
keriokorhojoa: wpa2 enterprise is that much better than wpa2?15:46
yacckorhojoa, if I remember right, I'm forced to run a second WEP network just for certain devices from Nintendo, ...15:46
yacckorhojoa, how many hours did you spent on it?15:46
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korhojoakerio, well, per-user auth15:46
kerios/certain devices/the nintendo ds/15:46
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keriowhich has a crappy online anyway15:47
yacckorhojoa, well I've got a WPA2-PSK and a WEP WLAN for the devices that cannot do WPA or guests, ...15:47
korhojoayacc, i spent like a week on finding a working solution and then 15 minutes on setting all the devices up15:47
korhojoai can tell you the working solution, and you won't need to spend a week15:47
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korhojoanintendo devices don't do wpa?15:48
korhojoathat's pretty bad15:48
lardmanhmm, funny how time evaporates, I've not done half as much stuff as I'd hoped to this week15:49
yacckorhojoa, well, I fear I would have to upgrade my firmware first, and OpenWRT does not provide images for my router :(15:49
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yacckorhojoa, as my routes seems to be missing the WPA-EAP option in it's configuration page, ...15:49
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korhojoayacc, are there images for dd-wrt then?15:50
korhojoait's not perfect, but a lot better than the default ones15:50
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yacckorhojoa, I think so, but then the whole thing is a delicate balance anyway.15:50
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korhojoayacc, no eap? :E15:50
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korhojoathat's weak15:50
korhojoaeven my old d-link 802.11b one did enterprise15:51
yaccE.g. our Archos tablets are very very sensible to the WLAN configuration, ...15:51
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yacckorhojoa, well, that's a very diplomatic way to put it, I mean I spent a couple of weeks experimenting to find a setting where the tablets are reliably online, ...15:52
yacckorhojoa, let me put it like this, something is wrong in WLAN land, when I prefered to use a BT across the flat to do PAN/DUN networking, ...15:53
yaccover WLAN.15:53
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khertanThere is still some app developpers here ?16:10
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RST38hno, we have all died16:13
lardmanwell I wanted to go out into the sunshine but everyone told me not to, so yeah I'm still here too ;)16:14
RST38hmoo lardman16:15
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lardmanhey RST38h16:15
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derfSunshine is dangerous.16:17
lardmanderf: so I'm told :)16:18
derfCould get vitamin D poisoning.16:18
lardmanyeah, will have to steer clear of polar bear liver this evening16:18
RST38hand the bear himself, too16:21
lardmanvery true16:21
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amigadavemaybe the polar bear just needs a hug16:21
amigadavethink of all the lonely, sunburnt polar bears16:22
jaskacartesian bear16:22
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vadmesteHello everybody. Is it possible to create an application under Maemo which registers itself for received SMS ?16:23
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RST38hHotel officials told police the man had repeatedly called hotel employees the "anti-Christ" and "spawns of Satan."16:30
denoby default, when compiling the kernel-power with dpkg-build, is used the rx51power_defconfig configuration?16:31
lcuklardman, you need to go into the sunshine anyway to test your new azimuth calculations!16:31
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BCMMRST38h: as BB pointed out, why did he think Satan would mind a bit of fire?16:32
RST38hBCMM: By destroying His spawn, you stop Him in His tracks!16:34
lardmanlcuk: well having to go outside might make me jump in the shower at leasrt16:36
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denono one?16:47
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vadmesteDoes Maemo application have permissions/capabilities like Android or Symbian ?16:48
crashanddievadmeste, no16:49
vadmesteemm.. That's strange.. So Nokia Team verifies the behavior of applications before submitting it to the OVI store right ?16:50
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lardmandeno: look at debian/rules16:50
denolardman, ok16:50
denolardman, thx for the hint :)16:50
denofound it: DEFCONFIG := rx51power_defconfig16:52
denolardman, thx :))16:52
lardmangood good16:52
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denook, how is possible that the compilation works with dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -uc -us -sa without copying that configuration into the /arch/arm/config16:58
denoit's not normal o.=16:58
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lardmandoes the makefile read it directly from the debian dir?17:02
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merlin1991any qt gods here to help me? I'm trying to store an opengl extension method in a function pointer to user it later using but I can't get the cast right so I  can use it (or I define my function pointer wrongly I don't know)17:21
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crashanddiemerlin1991, what language?17:23
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merlin1991hm he left :P17:23
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crashanddiemerlin1991, can you show your code, and actual errors?17:24
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merlin1991well I tried all sorts of stuff and always get compile time errors, but the main point is, that I'm using this function wich returns void* and I need to cast that so I can use the return as function pointer17:26
crashanddieand we're not going to be able to help you unless you give us some specific examples that will allow us to deduce what kind of cast you need17:26
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merlin1991I need to cast that to pretty much any type of function pointer since depending on what string I feed it I get back another opengl function (yay for the awesome windows opengl system)17:29
lcukmerlin1991, what is the function prototype that the pointer should represent?17:29
merlin1991the very first one I need would be void (GLsizei n, GLuint *renderbuffers)17:30
crashanddiefor example, you could have glCreateProgram = (PFNGLCREATEPROGRAMPROC)cont->getProcAddress("glCreateProgram");17:30
crashanddiewhere cont is a QGLContext *17:30
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merlin1991yeah I found lots of examples like that, but sadly the glext header for windows is missing most of the typedefs like PFNGLCREATEPROGRAMPROC17:32
crashanddieget an OS that works then.17:32
merlin1991I'd love todo that :P17:33
merlin1991so I need to know I have to put in the ( ) to create for example the pointer to the function with the signature (GLsizei n, GLuint *renderbuffers)17:33
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merlin1991(so I can either write the ypedefs myself or copy paste stuff)17:34
lcukmerlin1991, yeah17:35
lcuktypedef int (*FUNCX)(int a,int b);17:36
lcukFUNCX myfunc = NULL;17:36
lcukmyfunc = (FUNCX)getProcAddress("glCreateProgram");17:36
lcukprintf("tada %i",myfunc(1,2));17:36
merlin1991thanks lcuk :)17:36
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trxi have a free closed source .so that i want to use with my free open source app17:58
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trxhow should i distribute the .so17:59
trxwith my app's .deb or?17:59
inzWhat does the license of the closed source .so say about redistribution?18:00
trxbasicaly just free for non-commercial use18:01
trxi was asking about the .deb side18:01
trxam i allowed to send my app to the repo which includes a .so18:02
crashanddiein the non-free repo, probably18:02
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trxwhy not the free repo? its a free lib..18:03
crashanddieit has nothing to do with the cost18:03
trxwhere could find out more about that?18:03
inzDepends on the definition of free18:03
crashanddieit's the licence18:03
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trxso what should do then, ask the author of the .so if he allows it or what?18:08
trxshould i do*18:08
crashanddieerhm, that has nothing to do with it18:08
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crashanddiefirst of all, you need to include the licence of the binary with it18:08
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trxmeh, its too much trouble then18:13
trxi wanted to create a "guitar amp" app18:13
trxguess its not going to happen :)18:13
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jacekowskiinz: free as in freedom18:15
jacekowskiinz: you can pack that so into .deb and upload it to non-free repo18:15
jacekowskiinz: and create your app and upload it to free repo with dependencies for that non-free app18:16*18:16
inzjacekowski, you probably meant trx (at least apart from the first line)18:16
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trxi guess ill have to ask for a permission to upload the lib there18:19
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trxi used it on Win 100 times, and i just supply the lib with my app18:20
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DocScrutinizertrx: where from you got the n900-armel .so?18:20
trxi'm an idiot18:21
DocScrutinizerthought so ;-D18:21
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trxthe lib isnt compiled for arm :(18:21
nealjacekowski: A while ago you said it was possible to get the neighboring cells but you didn't say how (  Can you tell me?18:21
trxDocScrutinizer thanks :)18:21
jacekowskineal: read next line18:22
nealI did and I don't know how.18:23
nealThat's what I'd like to know.18:23
nealA nokia engineer told me that isi command is blocked on the n900.18:24
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nealjacekowski: Have you managed to get the information?18:24
jacekowskibut these commands are not blocked18:25
jacekowskijust there is no headers for libs18:25
nealwhich commands?18:25
jacekowskiall of them18:25
jacekowskithere is no headers and no docs18:25
jacekowskithat's all18:25
nealhow do you know that?18:26
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jacekowskineal: because i know18:26
pupnikvery cool video  7 years of gstreamer community development visualized18:26
DocScrutinizerneal: I asked for the needed support in isi like one year ago. Back when tekojo said he'll try to help, and asked some Nokian here to report back directly to us about what's state of the issue. Nothing ever happened then18:26
nealjacekowski: There is a recent patch to ofono to enable getting the neighbor info.18:26
jacekowskineal: yeah, but ofono isn't compatible with n90018:27
jacekowskineal: n900 userland18:27
jacekowskiyou can use ofono but that would break lot of things already there18:27
nealthe isi driver works on the n90018:27
nealand this is a hardware problem18:27
jacekowskiyou can run maemo on n900 and get all info18:27
jacekowskion maemo you have closed userland that makes things hard18:28
nealexcept for the cells_req, which according to the nokia engineer is blocked18:28
DocScrutinizerwhat's cell_req?18:28
nealI'm willing to access it via an AF_PHONET socket18:28
SpeedEvilneal: no, there isn't.18:29
nealit's 0x1A18:29
nealthat message will get you the neighbor cells18:29
SpeedEvilneal: That's a patch - as I understand it - to enable ofono to support neighbour cells.18:29
SpeedEvilneal: It is _not_ a driver for the low-level modem.18:29
SpeedEvilIf this was a message of a couple of months ago18:30
nealSpeedEvil: That's from March 718:30
nealso, 10 days ago18:30
SpeedEvilNot loading here.18:30
SpeedEvilIs it low-level?18:30
SpeedEvilI.E. talking directly to the modem?18:30
SpeedEvilNot just adding an ofono API?18:30
nealit uses the linux AF_PHONET socket API18:30
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nealjacekowski: The Nokia engineer said: "You cannot get neighbor cell info on N900. The ISI command used to fetch the info is blocked in N900."18:32
nealjacekowski: Are you saying this is a firmware problem?18:32
nealjacekowski: Or what's the issue?18:32
SpeedEvilThe modem firmware has to support it.18:32
SpeedEvilIf the modem firmware does not support it, you're screwed.18:33
nealSpeedEvil: jacekowski is convinced that it works on the N90018:33
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SpeedEvilIt's not loading for me, I don't know why.18:35
SpeedEvilI hope jacekowski is right, but I don't have any reason to believe that he is.18:35
SpeedEvil(I don't have any reason to believe the other too)18:35
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DocScrutinizerneal: jacekowski knows a friggin lot about what BB5 celmo  firmware is doing. I'd tend to believe what he says, though I'd appreciate he'd elaborate18:37
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DocScrutinizerand for the Nokia statements: they also said "N900 *CAN NOT DO* usb-otg" and damn, they were right, and they never explicitly stated N900 can not do hostmode18:39
DocScrutinizerthough they always phrased their answers in a way you'd think they meant exactly that, so I dunno if they know very exactly or not at all what they say18:39
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DocScrutinizerneal: "the ISI cmd is blocked..." might mean it's not implemented in the isi lib that's talking to cellmo18:42
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DocScrutinizerthe last info from tekojo regarding this was along the line "I asked MrXY of Nokia-cmt and he said they could consider to implement it into some library"18:44
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nealDocScrutinizer: Good point.18:47
nealDocScrutinizer: I'll continue trying.  Thanks for your help.18:48
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nealDocScrutinizer: Also, I wasn't doubting jacekowski, I just want him to elaborate as well18:48
* SpeedEvil pokes jacekowski with a tomato.18:48
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timeless_xchatso, if anyone ever plans to write an application18:49
DocScrutinizerneal: so please stay with us and share all your steps taken and findings. I'm sure there are more than just me wo'd love to contribute and help, and also want to see servicemode working on BB5/maemo-N90018:49
timeless_xchatand provides an action which takes a long time to complete18:50
* DocScrutinizer pokes jacekowski with a sharp stick18:50
dashavooSorry to jump late into the conversation, but what *is* neighbour cell whateveritwas you were talking about?18:50
* SpeedEvil pokes timeless_xchat, and waits for the next sentance.18:51
timeless_xchatplease don't provide a big hit region which enables the user to quickly dimiss the dialog and lose the work18:51
SpeedEvildashavoo: the cell is the 'router' your phone is connected to.18:51
* timeless_xchat eyes HAM's restore feature18:51
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SpeedEvildashavoo: Neighbouring cells are ones it can 'see' - but is not connected to.18:51
BCMMdashavoo: i don't really know what they're talking about either, but a GSM phone knows which other cells are in range and is ready to switch over if they get stronger than the one it's using18:51
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BCMM(it knows which frequencies to check because the cell in use tells it how to find the neighbours)18:52
ZogGрун пгны18:52
dashavooSpeedEvil, BCMM, thanks, I think I can put it all in context now :)18:52
ZogGhey guys18:52
SpeedEvildashavoo: Knowing the neiighbouring cell - and more information about them as is also available - such as timing information - can enable you do do rapid positioning 'free' - and with zero additional power usage.18:52
ZogGhappy patricks18:52
SpeedEvilSure - the positioning may only be to within a few tens of meters, but that may be fine.18:52
dashavooSpeedEvil: ooh, nice, I can see why that would be good18:52
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dashavoook, as being as everyone seems to be around at the moment, and I'm off home in a minute anyway... I noticed that the power kernel supports mesh networking, does anything actually use it?18:53
SpeedEvilThe OLPC can.18:54
SpeedEvilI don't know how much that's used though.18:54
DocScrutinizerI considered writing an app that does mesh via BT/WLAN for areas where authorities like to switch down internet every now and then18:55
dashavooDocScrutinizer: that would be cool18:56
DocScrutinizerof course it would need several other properties, like signature and loose routing and authentication and whatnot, to be really useful18:56
dashavooSomebody told me something about an android application that uses mesh networking for that type of situation, which is what piqued my interest in it18:56
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dashavooOK, home time :)18:57
DocScrutinizero.O damn, I didn't know they beaten me once more. MEH!18:57
dashavooDocScrutinizer: aww18:57
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dashavooDocScrutinizer: if you could get it to co-operate, that would be even better ;)18:57
pupnikSister for sale!  Sister for sale!  One crying and spying young sister for sale!18:58
timeless_xchatspeedevil, where you going to ask me something?18:58
dashavoobye for now18:58
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BCMMdashavoo: if only we could have up-to-date kernels... version 2.6.33 includes the B.A.T.M.A.N. protocol18:58
DocScrutinizernow that should be BORING simple, if that project is worth it I.E. it's FOSS18:58
SpeedEviltimeless_xchat: I was referring to the time delay between you posting '(04:49:15 PM) timeless_xchat: and provides an action which takes a long time to complete' - and the next line. :)18:59
timeless_xchatah :)19:00
DocScrutinizerBCMM: ever tried to backport recent kernels?19:00
timeless_xchati'm in a small room in a session, and slowly typing (blindly) while listening19:00
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BCMMDocScrutinizer: no, why?19:00
DocScrutinizershouldn't be TOO much that isn't backward compatible19:00
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BCMMDocScrutinizer: i wasn't saying "somebody ought to have done it"19:00
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DocScrutinizerI'm saying you ought to have tried it ;-D19:01
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BCMM(well, apart from it would be cool if nokia was mantaining its drivers, which is of course ridiculous)19:01
BCMMDocScrutinizer: why, what's it like?19:01
DocScrutinizerdunno, I guess you need a few old libs and cling to a few old /sys pathnames19:02
DocScrutinizercan't see any major subsystem getting binned on 2.6.3x19:02
BCMMDocScrutinizer: oh, i thought you were claiming experience and suggesting i wouldn't say such things if i knew what it was like or something19:02
DocScrutinizernah, I'm honestly suggesting you start such a project. Much appreciated19:03
BCMMyeah, it would be pretty cool. .33 has some patches that should improve responsiveness on almost any system under heavy load19:03
BCMMunfortunately i am nothing like a kernel hacker19:03
DocScrutinizeryou might want to ask the SHR dudes on #openmoko-cdevel about what they got so far19:03
BCMMDocScrutinizer: i don't really know what the barriers are - the kernel claims to be untainted, so i guess there aren't any binary drivers compiled against a specific version19:04
DocScrutinizeraiui they are experimenting with 2.6.36/7 (??) but not for N900 so far19:05
BCMMDocScrutinizer: is the only serious issue that there is closed userspace that expects sysfs stuff to be in specific locations?19:05
DocScrutinizeryes, I think so19:05
BCMMwhat i said 33 i didn't mean 3319:05
MohammadAGMeeGo uses .3719:06
MohammadAG(on the N900)19:06
BCMMDocScrutinizer: is there any chance of simply modifying the binaries to adjust the sysfs paths?19:06
timeless_xchatgrr, i can't install bluemaemo because of a conflict over libeina019:06
BCMMor are the new paths longer?19:06
BCMMyes, i know that would be a licensing can of worms19:06
DocScrutinizerBCMM: a nice idea, I'll ponder about it19:06
MohammadAGlonger is an understatement19:07
BCMMbut a binary patch could be applies on teh device19:07
MohammadAGI wouldn't worry about bme or mce19:07
BCMMMohammadAG: the new sysfs paths are much longer?19:07
MohammadAGand more confusing, at least to me19:07
MohammadAGI felt lost in sysfs, unlike on 2.6.2819:08
BCMMi guess that would pretty much prohibit modifying string literals in the binaries?19:08
BCMMMohammadAG: so which important stuff moved?19:08
MohammadAGdepends, which binaries?19:08
MohammadAGall paths changed, in one way or another19:08
ZogGMohammadAG 2.6.28 is so ooold19:08
ZogGit's os yesterday19:08
MohammadAGZogG, less confusing though19:08
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BCMMMohammadAG: dunno; whichever the ones with hardcoded sysfs stuff are19:08
MohammadAG2.6.38 is shit, at least on my laptop19:08
ZogGMohammadAG what aer you trying to do?19:09
BCMMMohammadAG: in which respects?19:09
ZogGMohammadAG i have 38 now19:09
MohammadAGit can't resume from standby19:09
ZogGand 37 on laptop19:09
MohammadAGor from hibernate19:09
BCMMMohammadAG: "I wouldn't worry about bme or mce" in what way?19:09
ZogGMohammadAG,  you have it on laptop19:09
MohammadAGBCMM, they were updated for MeeGo19:09
ZogGand didn't bother to set it up =)19:09
MohammadAGyes, I have it on my laptop19:09
MohammadAGI went back to .35, a bit more stable19:10
BCMMMohammadAG: using tuxonice/suspend2 patches?19:10
MohammadAGoh and only one core is visible on .3819:10
ZogGMohammadAG, are you using stable or unstable?19:10
MohammadAGit's an i5 ffs...19:10
MohammadAGZogG, natty kernel19:10
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ZogGMohammadAG you have i5 ?19:11
MohammadAG2 i5s19:11
MohammadAGa desktop and a laptop19:11
ZogGdamn you19:11
MohammadAGbought the laptop from jordan, 2000NIS19:11
ZogGwhat laptop?19:11
MohammadAGit cost 7000 here when I bought it19:11
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MohammadAGHP dv6-2152ee19:11
ZogGMohammadAG, maybe you buy me one?19:11
MohammadAGbasically, Israel's prices suck19:11
MohammadAGI'm not going to jordan anytime soon :P19:12
* RST38h is getting a distinct feeling that .IL sucks badly19:12
BCMMMohammadAG: just saying, AFAIK tuxonice is still at .38, so your hibernation will indeed suck19:13
ZogGMohammadAG, talk to me when you do19:13
BCMMi mean, still at .3719:13
BCMMso either you're using vanilla suspend, which sucks, or you're using an experimental tuxonice patch19:13
ZogGBCMM, do you use gentoo-sources?19:14
BCMMZogG: sys-kernel/tuxonice-sources19:14
ZogGBCMM, just for hibirnate?19:14
BCMMZogG: which has the gentoo-sources +tuxonice19:14
ZogGBCMM, seriosly?19:14
BCMMZogG: hibernation is the only difference between that and gentoo-sources19:14
ZogGi may switch19:14
ZogGon laptop19:15
BCMMZogG: which bit provokes incredulity?19:15
BCMMZogG: the only downside is that it lags slightly behind vanilla19:15
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BCMMany right now, it lags behind gentoo- a little too19:15
BCMMZogG: gentoo and vanilla are both at .38, tuxonice is at .37 cause of upstream19:15
BCMMZogG: eix sys-kernel/tuxonice-sources, it's right there in the description19:16
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BCMM"TuxOnIce + Gentoo patchset sources"19:16
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ZogGi don't mind on 37 on laptop19:16
BCMMit doesn't lag too far anyway19:16
ZogGBCMM, why don't they include it in vanilla?19:17
BCMMZogG: politics...19:17
BCMMZogG: iirc, they want to be in the kernel19:17
BCMMZogG: but somebody doesn't agree with how their doing thigns19:17
BCMMwants to move more stuff to userspace, i think19:17
BCMM^they're doing things19:17
BCMMi don't think there's any disagreement that it beats the existing suspend support; it's just that somebody is working on a supposedly superiour replacement19:18
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BCMMZogG: the alternative, more user-space-ish, suspend implementation is uswsusp19:20
ZogGbut it's the only thing that works19:20
MohammadAGI wish the N900 had suspend to RAM19:20
MohammadAGI don't mind DocScrutinizer's battery swap method, but it needs a wall charger, and a wall19:21
ZogGdoes it?19:21
BCMMZogG: what is? tuxonice?19:21
pupnika better way to suspend/resume apps would be great19:22
BCMMZogG: yeah, it works much better than anything else right now19:22
ZogGMohammadAG, what about air charger and air19:22
ZogGBCMM, i hate politics19:22
MohammadAGZogG, not much air in the atmosphere19:22
BCMMZogG: imho, the objections to it are too philosophical19:22
ZogGpeople are tarded19:22
BCMMpragmatically, it wins19:22
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: N900 has s2ram, SpeedEvil tested it, and I don't see how that helps. And my hotswap works with external battery packs as well19:22
BCMMdunno why this is a problem, because from where i'm standing, that's what Linux itself is19:22
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ZogGwho is against it should do better than19:22
BCMMa decent balence between doing it right and actually doing it19:23
BCMM(compare with Hurd)19:23
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, suspend, swap battery, resume19:23
MohammadAGbasically, I don't want to reload whatever i had opened19:24
DocScrutinizerwon't work, RAM as well needs power19:24
ZogGBCMM, i heard that if you want to maintaince somethign to kernel you need to use k&r book syntaxes (the book you told me about)19:24
MohammadAGit works fine with my laptop19:24
ZogGMohammadAG, why do we need suspend on n900?19:24
BCMMZogG: yeah, i think that was one of the things Reiser fought with the kernel team over19:24
MohammadAGhmm, wtf am I saying19:24
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MohammadAGsuspend to disk*19:24
MohammadAGmy bad19:24
ZogGBCMM, he is in jail now19:24
BCMMZogG: i know19:24
ZogGhe i bloody killer19:25
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, but wait, it has suspend to ram?19:25
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macmaNwhat package does the deb command come from?19:25
MohammadAGhow does that work?19:25
DocScrutinizerask SpeedEvil19:25
MohammadAGdeb command?19:26
BCMMZogG: i think i was incorrect, formatting standards wasn't the complaint about reiserfs419:26
MohammadAGthere's no deb command19:26
ZogGBCMM,  i think maintaince was19:26
BCMMZogG: it seems a bit petty, but it's actually kinda reasonable to have a project like that use similar conventions througout19:26
DocScrutinizerecho foo >/sys/bar19:26
ZogGas he was only one or something like that19:26
BCMMespecially where it doesn't actually effect anything19:26
macmaNdeb fremantle/sdk free19:26
ZogGand if he would stop there were noone to continue19:26
macmaNoh that goes directly into sources.list19:27
macmaNmy bad19:27
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: ^^^19:27
BCMMZogG: nah, he had/has a company19:27
ZogGdoes he?19:27
ZogGdidn't know about that19:27
BCMMZogG: they're still trying to get reiser4 in the kernel19:27
ZogGcompany opensource or what?19:27
BCMMMohammadAG: what was that about "not worrying" about mce/bme?19:28
ZogGBCMM, but they worked on it years and it still not even stable19:28
ZogGthough people using it19:28
BCMMZogG: yeah, the politics sucks a bit, but occasionally good stuff comes of it19:28
BCMMZogG: after all, Xorg is a political fork...19:29
MohammadAGBCMM, they were updated for MeeGo, you don't need to change paths19:29
BCMMMohammadAG: and meego versions can be used in maemo?19:29
ZogGBCMM, fork of Xfree?19:29
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MohammadAGif you backport 2.6.37, sure19:29
ZogGwhy don't we use meego's kernel?19:29
BCMMMohammadAG: define "backport". what modifications would be needed?19:29
MohammadAGtoo much shit breaks19:30
ZogGis there any specific maemo releated in kernel in maemo that we don't have in meego?19:30
MohammadAGBCMM, a lot, it's not easy19:30
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DocScrutinizerwhat *exactly*?19:30
BCMMMohammadAG: why would modifications be needed? hardware-specific patches that would need to be modified?19:30
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ZogGi don't get that too19:31
ZogGit's only kernel19:31
BCMMZogG: yeah, XFree86 was developed in a not-very-public way, open but basically controlled by a small group of people19:31
MohammadAGthe kernel isn't a big problem19:31
MohammadAGmaemo is19:31
ZogGand there should be no software releated things19:31
ZogGso hardware si the same19:32
MohammadAGtelephony functions will most likely break19:32
MohammadAGthat retarded battery applet might break too19:32
ZogGBCMM, i like the revolution of ffmpeg team19:32
BCMMZogG: the decision to change the license was the best thing to happen to X11 in ages, since the resulting fork ended up being developed much more actively19:32
ZogGMohammadAG, are those thing built in?19:32
BCMMMohammadAG: why would they break?19:32
MohammadAGdefine built in19:32
MohammadAGcause they listen to hal, which is deprecated19:33
BCMMMohammadAG: do you mean that the telephony driver wouldn't work on a modern kernel?19:33
BCMMah, hal...19:33
BCMMMohammadAG: it's deprecated, not gone19:33
ZogGBCMM, i like forks and branching but i like good stuff being merged to master branch19:33
MohammadAGtelephony app will break19:33
MohammadAGMeeGo uses ofono19:33
ZogGand not that you have 5 branches and everyoe has things you want and you can't combine19:33
BCMMMohammadAG: i use hal on a 2.6.37 kernel on my desktop19:33
BCMM(because i'm on an old version of KDE)19:33
ZogGMohammadAG, and maemo?19:33
BCMMMohammadAG: it will break why?19:34
ZogGBCMM, hal?19:34
MohammadAGBCMM, I'm not sure if bme has hal on MeeGo19:34
ZogGare you fucking srs?19:34
MohammadAGuses hal*19:34
ZogGhal had a good run19:34
ZogGat the end as it was working god with X finally it got deleted =)19:35
MohammadAGI need to figure out gstreamer...19:35
BCMMZogG: iirc, kde 4.6 is the first KDE release that doesn't use HAL19:35
BCMMi'm still on 4.519:35
ZogGBCMM, you have flags =)19:35
ZogGUSE=-hal =)19:35
MohammadAGbasically, how to use gstreamer widgets in Qt19:36
BCMMit isn't compulsory, but it is required for GUI mounting/unmounting of removable media19:36
ZogGthough i waited a lot for xfce4 to use udev insted of hal19:36
ZogGit wa or hal or mount manually =)19:36
BCMMlike i said, they modifed Solid in 4.6 to not use HAL19:36
ZogGalmost everyone did19:36
ZogGthey use udev19:36
BCMManyway, deprecated doesn't mean it doesn't work any more, so i still don't understand why telephony should break19:37
ZogGbut latest X and hal were fine with autodetection my xorg.conf was empty, everything out of box19:37
BCMM"HAL is in maintenance mode - no new features are added." - it's not even unmaintained19:37
APTXas a neat side effectof dropping hal, the ability of setting a keyboard layout vanished yet again19:37
ZogGBCMM, as i understood maemo uses something that is not in meego kernel or changed with something and unleast you have source of dialing and other apps that are built in you can't fix them and you can't replace the19:38
ZogGAPTX, not true19:38
ZogGAPTX, i don't have hal and i manage good with keyboard setting even with no DE19:39
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APTXZogG: lucky you19:39
ZogG$ wgetpaste /etc/X11/xorg.conf.d/10-keyboard.conf19:40
ZogGYour paste can be seen here:
ZogGAPTX, ^19:40
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ZogGits really simple19:40
APTXZogG: tried that, didn't work19:40
APTXit was really simple before hal19:40
ZogGAPTX cat /etc/X11/xorg.conf19:41
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ZogGAPTX what os? do you have evdev?19:41
APTXnot on linux now anyway19:41
VenemoDocScrutinizer, ping19:41
Venemohey ZogG, how's your app? :)19:41
APTXjust too painful19:41
ZogGthat's all you need19:42
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ZogGVenemo, didn't have time19:42
VenemoZogG, :(19:42
ZogGVenemo, just played with label19:42
ZogGgoing to add album art soon19:42
ZogGand playtime scrll19:42
macmaNis it possible to have python-2.6 on N900 right now?19:43
ZogGmacmaN, which one we have?19:43
APTXisn't it there be default?19:43
macmaNcan be an isolated instance, dont need to make it system wide19:43
macmaNi am not aware of any package that gives this19:44
ZogGmacmaN, do you have extras?19:44
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macmaNapt-cache search 2.6 has nothing19:46
macmaN? are you saying 2.7 is supposed to be there?19:48
ZogGmacmaN meego has 2.619:48
macmaNim not seeig it19:48
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macmaNso basically have to compile my own instance if i want it, it seems19:49
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ZogGRST38h, lol impad2, have you heard it?19:51
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jacekowskii'm back20:08
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: i was playing with it couple months ago to get that data out of n900 but lack of libisi headers and amount of RE work required to get them all and understand how it's done sort of delayed that project beyond any reasonable date20:10
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: but it looks like you may get that data with just at interface20:11
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DocScrutinizer51err just AT interface?20:12
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jacekowskiit doesn't look like you can get all full nice data for all frequencies20:13
jacekowskiit looks more like data for alternative cells to roam to20:13
SpeedEvilWhat do you mean by that? Can you extract the list of neighbouring cells, or not?20:13
VenemoDocScrutinizer51, I'm sure you'll know something about this20:14
SpeedEvilThat's all anyone was expecting I think.20:14
SpeedEvilWell - hoping for.20:14
VenemoDocScrutinizer51, on the N900, what's the performance difference between fixed and floating point calculations?20:14
jacekowskiVenemo: huge20:14
jacekowskiVenemo: floating point on maemo is all emulated20:14
Venemojacekowski, I know, but how much is "huge" in numbers?20:15
Venemoso if I use fixed-point calculations, then my stuff will run more than 10× faster?20:16
jacekowskiassuming that calculations are your main thing20:16
jacekowskibut then even more than 10x20:16
jacekowskii would say more like 100x20:17
DocScrutinizer51if it's all just divisions and muls then yes20:17
Venemowell, Qt Graphics View uses lots of fp calculations20:17
SpeedEvilIf you can use NEON, things may change.20:17
SpeedEvilAlso - 100 may be pessimistic20:17
SpeedEvil10 is probably optimistic though20:17
Venemo"Graphics View is built with the assumption that the user's hardware is able to provide reasonable performance for floating point instructions"20:17
DocScrutinizer51I gathered meego heads for hfp though20:17
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jacekowskiVenemo: there are some numbers here20:18
Venemoeven a 2x increase would be nice :)20:18
jacekowskiVenemo: on real code
jacekowskiVenemo: that does a lot of math but a lot of other processing20:18
jacekowskiVenemo: and it gets like 2x faster20:18
jacekowski16 minutes vs 7 minutes20:18
DocScrutinizer51which is what you *always* will get (2*)20:18
Venemoso I was thinking of copying the QGV sources and replacing floats with fixed points20:19
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VenemoI don't think that I'll use any precision, since the end results of the calculations are mapped to a screen whose size has an integer number of pixels20:20
DocScrutinizer51alsa dmix is using int32, afaik PA originally used all reals20:21
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jacekowskiiirc there was talk about mixing in kernel20:21
jacekowskibut there was no way to do it nicely without floats20:21
jacekowskiand you can't do floats in kernel20:21
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jacekowskiwhich is why we ended up with shit like PA20:22
DocScrutinizer51mixing doesn't need floats20:22
pupnik  "The US military is developing software that will let it secretly manipulate social media sites such as Facebook and Twitter by using fake online personas to influence internet conversations and spread pro-American propaganda."20:22
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DocScrutinizer51ok, now whom to ban? :-P20:23
Venemojacekowski, why are fixed points not enough for it? and why can't you use floats in the kernel?20:23
jacekowskiVenemo: i don't remember20:23
jacekowskiVenemo: it was just one post on one of kernel related mailing lists20:24
jacekowskiVenemo: and you can't use floats in kernel for performance reasons20:24
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jacekowskiVenemo: context switches out of kernel/to kernel would take much longer20:24
jacekowskiVenemo: if it would have to save fpu stack20:24
jacekowskiVenemo: which is huge20:24
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DocScrutinizer51you really don't need nor want floats for audio processing generally20:25
Venemojacekowski, I read your link. it talks about softfp vs. hardfp (and 40% difference which is real nice), but it doesn't talk about fixed points :)20:26
jacekowskiVenemo: well, on maemo you only have softfp ( or just soft, i'm not sure )20:26
Venemojacekowski, sure20:26
jacekowskiVenemo: and fixed points are done natively therefore would achieve performance of hardfp at least20:27
Venemojacekowski, this is why I want to know how much I would gain by using fixed-point calculation20:27
Venemojacekowski, fixed-points are calculated as integers as far as the CPU is concerned20:27
jacekowskithat's why i'm saying fixed points are done natively20:27
jacekowskitherefore no need to emulate anything20:28
Venemoand it's usually reasonable to say that integer arithmetics is usually a lot faster than floating point.20:28
jacekowskilike with softfloats20:28
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Venemoso fixed point should be even faster than hardfp20:28
jacekowskivfp on arms is quite fast20:28
jacekowskibut well, fixed will be faster20:29
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derfVFP on ARMs is _terrible_.20:30
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derfFor example, Tremor is more than 3.3 times faster than libvorbis on an N900 (despite doing more arithmetic: it's somewhat slower on desktop-class hardware).20:35
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FIQ|n900Why does Maemo reboot if i kill X?20:46
prontobecuase killing is wrong >:(20:46
pupnikbecause of watchdog20:46
FIQ|n900Not that I'm in need of a framebuffer, but why?20:46
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LantiziaLo... On wikipedia I just read this... £Even though MeeGo was initiated as collaboration between Nokia and Intel, the collaboration was formed when Nokia was already developing the next incarnation of its Maemo Linux distribution. As a result, the Maemo 6 base operating system will be kept intact while the Handset UX will be shared, with the name changed to “MeeGo/Harmattan”."20:50
LantiziaDoes this essentially mean the N9 will run MeeGo/Harmattan and that it will continue to be Debian-orientated Maemo at heart but with a MeeGo UX on top?20:50
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DocScrutinizeractually not because of watchdog but because of dsme20:51
MohammadAGthat's always been the case for Maemo 620:51
MohammadAGwatchdog = dsme20:51
MohammadAGlifeguard as it's called20:51
MohammadAGkilling X in R&D mode = dropped into a black screen (framebuffer console not in default kernel)20:52
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LantiziaMohammadAG, so surely this means the new MeeGo UX will be debian-packaged?20:52
MohammadAGMeeGo is RPM based20:53
MohammadAGMaemo 6 is debian based20:53
MohammadAGdifferent OSs20:53
MohammadAGdifferent openness20:53
Lantizia"As a result, the Maemo 6 base operating system will be kept intact while the Handset UX will be shared, with the name changed to “MeeGo/Harmattan”."20:53
LantiziaBy "base operating system" I'm thinking Maemo 6 will continue to be debian and dpkg20:53
Lantiziaif it's dpkg based... and the MeeGo UX is going on top... then it'll have to be in debian dpkg format no?20:54
MohammadAGyes, but MeeGo UX != MeeGo20:54
LantiziaI'm not saying it is20:54
MohammadAGand Maemo 6 != MeeGo20:54
LantiziaI'm not saying that either20:54
MohammadAGMaemo was and always will be debian based20:54
LantiziaI've been quite explicit about how I've phrased things20:54
MohammadAGMaemo 6 is just using MeeGo's UX20:55
MohammadAGbut it's still maemo, and probably a bit more closed20:55
LantiziaRight so the N9 will run MeeGo/Harmatted (AKA Maemo 6) and will be Debian based and runs the MeeGo UX which will be install/upgraded via dpkg right?20:55
jacekowskithere will be no N920:55
MohammadAGyes, and that ^ too20:55
Lantiziajacekowski, well Nokia have been claiming a MeeGo handset is still due - so the N9 surely?20:56
ShadowJKNot convinced anyone would use MeeGo UX..20:56
MohammadAGShadowJK, long live cordia20:56
Lantiziaok so the N950 will run MeeGo/Harmatton...  (formerly known as Maemo6)... a _Debian_ based OS that will run the MeeGo UX which will install/upgrade via apt/dpkg ?20:57
ShadowJKI mean, MeeGo *UX are like placeholders saying <dear bigcorp, insert random ui here>20:57
Lantiziais _that_ statement true? :D20:57
LantiziaCool :)20:58
MohammadAGShadowJK, true20:58
LantiziaSo if... _if_ there is ever a Maemo 7 (properly known as... MeeGo/FuckKnows)... is it likely to leave Debian behind?20:58
Lantiziasince Novell have an openSUSE version of MeeGo.... can't Nokia just have a Debian version of MeeGo (formerly known as Maemo lol)20:59
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MohammadAGnah, maemo will be maemo20:59
Lantiziabut there is no more Maemo... there is only MeeGo/Whatever now20:59
chxthere is a Maemo maintained by the community as best as they can21:00
chxthis is my understanding.21:00
ShadowJKopensuse can't claim opensuse+meego is meego, and i dont think they can use the meego name21:00
ShadowJKso i dont see how nokia can call it meego either21:00
Lantiziano but they _can_ use the MeeGo UX21:00
chxwell it's GPL so....21:00
Robot101<cynic>they pay more to the linux foundation?</cynic>21:00
pupnikWM7: Kill It With Fire21:00
Robot101chx: software license != trademark license21:00
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LantiziaI'd rather see a range of MeeGo UX based distributions that are based/backed by your garden variety desktop distro makers (like openSUSE, Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora etc...).  Maemo happened to be Debian based, so Nokia can continue to make they're own variety of a MeeGo UX based distro using Debian at it's core right?21:02
Lantiziai.e. Maemo continues... name slightly changed (again)... and Hildon is traded for MeeGo UX... the end.21:03
LantiziaMohammadAG, wishful thinking or am I on the nose here?21:04
yaccLantizia, I think you overlook the detail that Nokia is turning from self-development to being one of a couple hardware-providers for MS?21:04
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DocScrutinizerWTF is an Opensuse-meego?21:04
LantiziaDocScrutinizer, openSUSE running the MeeGo UX21:05
Lantiziajust as MeeGo/Harmatten sounds like it's going to be Maemo running the MeeGo UX21:05
Lantiziai.e. still debian21:05
Lantiziayacc, yeah that hurts me inside :(21:06
yaccLantizia, hence Nokia's announcements about their roadmap in the past were kind of vaporware-ish, but with the new course from the CEO downward, who can fathom what Nokia will deliver in n months?21:06
Lantiziayacc, I like to look at it as ... they got tired of critics moaning about Symbian, didn't think MeeGo was polished enough to replace Symbian yet... wanted $1 billion dollars... thought fine we'll have WP7 to replace Symbian only and if it goes tits up they can blame Microsoft and maybe Meego (still going on the Nxxx range) can be brought back in to the limelight21:07
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Lantiziaeven Apple made a deal with MS back in the 90's for a shit load of cash and non-voting shares... only to turn on them again in the end21:07
Lantiziathis may be a temporary alliance of convenience21:07
yaccLantizia, if they had decided to abandon their developer base, they probably should have taken Android, and added Nokia services (they are one of the few companies that own digital maps for most of the globe) instead of loosing completely the control of the software stack. Or leave the Google services in and take the bribe that Google offered, ...21:08
yaccLantizia, Well, if there wouldn't be the small detail that Mr Elop happens to be raised in the MS-way, ....21:09
LantiziaNah... don't agree, I still like the idea that the Linux Foundation are setting the rules on what the minimum base OS should have... and the idea of all using the same mobile-orientated UX21:09
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LantiziaBut I still want my choice in package management, so it's cool if you can get a MeeGo orientated distro from your preferred community (debian, ubuntu, opensuse, fedora, etc)21:10
yaccLantizia, yeah, I said if they don't have the will to go with their own developers, then Android would make way more sense than MS, but ...21:10
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Lantiziamy contract runs out in june... the samsung galaxy S II will be out then... will see what the situation is like then21:11
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* pupnik agrees with yacc21:13
yaccLantizia, well, I personally always buy open phones, and use them with a discount provider ;)21:13
pupnikex-microsoft man as president = evil inside (tm)21:14
Lantiziawell the one thing I hated about meego at least won't be in meego/harmatten :P I'm happy21:14
Lantiziaroll on the n950 :P21:15
SpeedEvilI hope the n950 is open enough.21:15
yaccpupnik, well, the real evil here is the Qt policy. As if they would be not able to provide libraries that allow all WP7 phones to run an application written with Qt, I mean it's possible even for Android devices, ...21:15
SpeedEvilI might be able to just about afford a n950.21:15
pupnikLantizia: what is that?21:15
Lantiziapupnik, rpm's21:15
SpeedEvilBut if it's not very open, I'm holding off for something else.21:15
pupnik?! how do you know this?21:15
Lantiziapupnik, read the entire discussion that just finished lol21:15
pupnikis there news about "n950"?21:15
MohammadAGSpeedEvil, it won't be as closed as M5, but still :P21:15
SpeedEvilpupnik: don't think so.21:16
RST38hpupnik: cancelled?21:16
MohammadAGRST38h, doubtful21:16
yaccpupnik, OTOH, it's best Nokia tradition, I had to use an old E61 for 2 weeks while my N900 was replaced, and so I googled around a little bit, all the different versions of S60 where a nightmare for developers even back then, ...21:16
pupnikyacc: yes i'm using an e71 now for my phone (n900 for my phun)21:17
MohammadAGi hate how symbian lacks proper update support21:18
yaccSo developing for Nokia phones has been always something for SM practitioners, with emphasis on the M. Why should being backstabbed by Nokia be something new, it's a tradition ;)21:18
yaccAlthough I wonder, I mean, AFAIK, Nokia still has no written contract with MS, ...21:19
pupnikmaybe they can build nice hardware, people will hate the wm7, and we can run linux on them21:20
RST38hpupnik: expect ms boot loader to be locked to the gills21:21
Lantiziacan you use qt on android?  if qt creator could do that... and wm7 doesn't have it... but meego does... and symbian does... :)21:21
RST38hLantizia: see Necessitas21:21
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LantiziaRST38h, shame google don't mandate it's inclusion as default21:22
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MohammadAGit's WIP21:22
yaccpupnik, I don't think so, because WP7 equals a very strict list of hardware requirements (which are said to be slightly dated, kind of 1-2 years compared to current Android/iPhone handsets), so if they don't get a special dispension from MS, they'll be able to produce more or less the same phones that are currently on the market, now with Nokia logo, and slightly more flash, and slightly more mega pixel then the others, and we offer it in a dozen colors, ...21:23
pupnikyacc: i think the 'esc button' requirement should have been part of the N90021:23
yaccLantizia, yeah, you can compile Qt apps for Android. AFAIK it works by creating a native app compiled to ARM, with some Java packaging so it looks like a nice Android app to the phone.21:23
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Lantiziayacc, this using necessitas?21:24
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yaccLantizia, ?21:24
Lantiziayacc, what RST38h just said21:24
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yaccLantizia, well, yes, I'd expect a MS bootloader to be a XBox360 style bootloader, including hardware destroying properties if you try to play games with it, ...21:25
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Lantiziayacc, wth are you on about? lol21:26
Lantiziathat is what RST38h was on about21:26
pupnikat this point i should be supporting palm pre21:27
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chxyeah this is what i leaning towards too, not the HP Pre 3 but the Veer21:34
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pupnikIn other news: Bulgarian Dog Spinning banned21:36
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Proteousfuck, what am I going to do now on Sat night21:38
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pupnikcheck youtube for bulgarian dog spinning21:39
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Venemojacekowski, are you still here?22:18
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mlwanehello all22:26
mlwanecan somebody tell me how to connect my n900 to the internet through usb please ?22:27
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mlwaneon linux ubuntu 10.10 * :)22:30
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mlwaneVenemo:are you there ?22:32
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Venemomlwane, yes, I'm here22:33
mlwanewould you please how to connect my n900 to internet through usb22:33
VenemoI don't know22:33
mlwanei have ubuntu 10.1022:34
VenemoI've never done such a thing22:34
mlwaneokay then :)22:34
Venemoyou're better of trying to make an ad-hoc wi-fi if your computer has a wi-fi card22:34
mlwaneyeah i've done that22:34
mlwanebut ad-hoc consumes lot of power !22:34
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mlwanei've been trying that wiki22:35
Venemomlwane, you connect your N900 to your laptop, then it'll charge through usb22:36
* ShadowJK just did whatever he did before to connect phones to computer via bluetooth, except left out all the bluetooth specific steps of the guide22:37
mlwanebut am stuck at configuring ubuntu22:37
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ShadowJKI think that "N900_USB_networking" thing is not relevant for connecting to the internet on the PC using N900 as modem via USB22:37
mlwaneyeah but i want to leave it connected for a pretty long period22:37
mlwaneand that is not good for the battery22:38
mlwaneam not trying to use n900 as a modem22:39
mlwaneam trying to connect to the internet on the n900 through usb22:39
mlwanein the wiki article there is this point which i can not get ..22:41
mlwane"Create the file in /etc/udev/rules.d/99-nokia-n900.rules and put in the following"22:41
Cor-Aiwhere are GPRS data amount log files? or arn't that stored in files?22:42
SpeedEvilI think they are in gconf22:43
Cor-Aiahh! will look! id like to back it up :p22:44
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andre__mlwane, what is unclear with that point?22:59
mlwanethe file23:00
mlwanei can't get what file should create !23:00
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yaccmlwane: interested in some scripts for USB outbound networking?23:08
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yacc and take care of the N900 side.23:10
yaccAs you'll notice there are some additional stuff in there, I like to start x11vnc on the n900 and vncviewer on my desktop while the USB connection comes up.23:10
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mlwanethanks a lot, i will have a look at the sites23:12
andre__mlwane: the file to create is /etc/udev/rules.d/99-nokia-n900.rules in that step23:14
andre__in case you have a user background "only" though you might not know about the underlying file structure, so it might look confusing23:15
mlwaneso the directory will be "rules.d" and the file will be "99-nokia-n900.rules" yeah ?23:16
yacc <= that's the host side configuration, extra stuff in there23:18
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yaccmlwane, the rules are only if want to have a specific device name => if do not have such rules the N900 shows up as a generic usb0 device => if you have multiple devices that can act as an USB network device the rules thing is useful.23:19
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mlwaneyeah i can see the device  in the wired network section but it says that the device is not managed23:22
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wazdHi all :)23:44
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* pupnik is have pizzagasm23:49
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MohammadAGthat's weird, I wonder why hermes unmerged my contacts23:51
kwtmHi. How can I find out the IP address of my N900 (connected by WiFi or 3G)?  Prefer command-line if possible.23:51
SpeedEvilthat will tell you the address inside the NAT23:52
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SurjikalHey guys, I don't know if this is the right channel but... has anyone configured the n900 to send and recv SMS via bluetooth with a linux pc?23:56
SurjikalFiles transfers are working fine with gnome-phone-manager23:56
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VenemoSurjikal, this is the right channel, yes23:57
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