IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2011-03-05

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DocScrutinizer	always difernetiating to make uterly clear "we're second best, and trying hard to never ever regain pole position"	00:01
Treibholz	DocScrutinizer: that's exactly, what I thought, when I booted meego on my N900.	00:01
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Treibholz	they are throwing away everything good and copy iOS really cheap.	00:02
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DocScrutinizer	yeah	00:03
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Treibholz	instead of integrating the really good things of the iPhone.	00:04
DocScrutinizer	binning the bits where they differ from iPhone crap, and trying to improve on the copied parts so they get as close as possible to #1 on hteir #2 postion. That's a sure path to always-second never-pole	00:04
Treibholz	like CalDAV/CardDAV (instead of the stupid and broken-by-design SyncML)	00:04
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Treibholz	DocScrutinizer: something that really shocked me, was how fast NITdroid runs.	00:08
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Treibholz	much faster than meego	00:09
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DocScrutinizer	([2011-03-04 19:45:25] <lardman> docscrutinizer: we'll get you there in the end, I hope) forget it, with this product policy it's getting more unlikely every day	00:09
DocScrutinizer	I'm not interested in meego GUI, meego concept, and neither in what they obviously plan to roll out as meego-device	00:11
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Treibholz	DocScrutinizer: what's the alternative? Android?	00:12
DocScrutinizer	Treibholz: meego is completely ignorant about special situation on a mobile phone (low ram, slow writes to swap, battery power conservation by consequent use of IRQ driven peripherals, whatever) They simply treat handset UX (NB the term) as a usual desktop (possibly even x86 arch centric) with a special skin	00:14
divan	DocScrutinizer, sounds bad (	00:15
Treibholz	DocScrutinizer: well, that's not very different to Maemo.	00:16
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/DeveloperEdition	00:17
DocScrutinizer	nope, that's very different to maemo, where even kernel seen massive special work done by Nokia to tailor it to OMAP arch and all the system around it. Exemplary case: lis302dl driver vs lis3lv02 driver	00:18
Treibholz	DocScrutinizer: and that's kind of what I like at Maemo. The n900 ist not a good phone, but a good computer for my pocket. And I can make calls with it! (Isn't that amazing?!)	00:19
DocScrutinizer	in short: maemo using a nice IRQ based design for acceleormeter while meego is abusing a joystick driver that incidentally was found upstream and used same chip	00:19
DocScrutinizer	maemo driver (C) Nokia and tailored to fit N900	00:20
Treibholz	DocScrutinizer: but Maemo also uses too much swap and the n900 has not enough RAM.	00:20
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, can I ask, does MeeGo do anything right?	00:20
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DocScrutinizer	not maemo uses too much swap, the apps are too greedy	00:21
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Treibholz	setting swappines to 100 is not what I call usefull.	00:21
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: dunno, basically I'm not interested in what's done right in meego as there's enough that's done terribly wrong	00:21
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DocScrutinizer	I'm not interested in meego en todo	00:23
Treibholz	btw. What are the 1300 Meego-developer do all day, I read so much about?	00:24
DocScrutinizer	they fsckd up for ~ one year now, I'm not seeing things rapidly changing all of a sudden	00:24
DocScrutinizer	developing tablet UX	00:25
DocScrutinizer	Treibholz: ^^^	00:25
lcuk	Treibholz, ooh where did you pull actual figures out from?	00:25
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Treibholz	lcuk: wait, I'll try to find the links again. Though they may be in German...	00:26
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DocScrutinizer	while meego code development may be more or less open, the system architecture design clearly wasn't, that's why Nokia and Intel made some poor decisions that are biting their back now and will continue to do that for long time. This starts on rationale to base kernel on a particular branch and doesn't stop at UX design rules	00:29
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lcuk	DocScrutinizer, the tablet ux is nice and shiny	00:29
DocScrutinizer	for iPhone fanbois, yes	00:30
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DocScrutinizer	oooh tablet, yes	00:30
DocScrutinizer	maybe, I'm not interested in tablets	00:30
DocScrutinizer	we're talking handset here	00:31
lcuk	so the change in focus for handset that I jsut showed	00:31
DocScrutinizer	and clearly an OS tailored to meet tablet needs and requirements is a poor match for a phone - that's meego foundation bug	00:31
BCMM	what do you mean by "base kernel on a particular branch"? develop their kernel like a fork, rather than as a patchset for the mainstream kernel?	00:32
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Treibholz	lcuk: http://thehandheldblog.com/2011/03/02/nokia-meego-devs-50-percent-bonus/ they even talk about 6500 devs!	00:32
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DocScrutinizer	BCMM: basically meego isn't accepting the need to have a patchset to tailor the kernel for the platform. If it's not main then it is not accepted	00:33
Treibholz	lcuk: http://www.golem.de/1102/81366.html here the say 600	00:33
lcuk	Treibholz, no, it says engineers	00:33
mikhas	DocScrutinizer, you are insulting quite a few people here. But I guess you know that.	00:34
lcuk	that can mean people up and down the entire product spectrum	00:34
DocScrutinizer	I'm not insulting anybody	00:34
lcuk	not just those tip of the iceberg ones we see working publicly	00:34
Treibholz	lcuk: and what else should an engineer do with meego?	00:34
lcuk	Treibholz, well since there has been public verification of a meego device	00:35
lcuk	perhaps you know quite a few of them might actually be engineering things in hardware	00:35
lcuk	evening mikhas \o	00:35
mikhas	heya	00:36
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lcuk	Treibholz, watch a Wolkswagon advert, they have a great set where they show one engineer working out how to specifically make windows work or door seals or antennas or something	00:36
mikhas	Volkswagen, ahem	00:37
DocScrutinizer	mikhas: that's probably the problem meego gods feel insulted when somebody questions their decisions	00:37
lcuk	mikhas, it is a good example because theyshow what individuals do to make the whole product	00:37
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mikhas	Or perhaps it's reason things are not discussed openly enough, when certain people complain about everything. Regardless of the outcome, they'll always find something.	00:37
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DocScrutinizer	lol, yeah when there's enough to complain about, including the process itself, then you're likely to find a few bits. For sure closing down discussion is a good way to defend your decisions	00:39
mikhas	lcuk, VW has this: http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Volkswagens-Incredible-Glass-Factory/A_2538/article.html	00:39
rhkfin	How long the CSSU upgrade/installation is supposed to take? I've had it now working for maybe an hour. THe screen's empty, keyboard and suspend button lit the backlight but nothing can be seen..	00:39
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lcuk	mikhas, :O	00:40
lcuk	kudos	00:40
mikhas	the factory gets the materials by using the public tram service	00:40
Treibholz	mikhas: the whole city belongs VW...	00:41
mikhas	Dresden belongs to VW? Nah ... ;-)	00:41
mikhas	Wolfsburg OTOH, perhaps ...	00:41
Treibholz	ahh, not in Wolfsburg?	00:42
mikhas	nope, not this one	00:42
mikhas	Phaeton comes from Dresden.	00:42
lcuk	mikhas, Nokia building where qgil is are right in the heart of the town and do not include cafe and stuff afaik	00:42
lcuk	I remember reading how it helps to integrate the workforce in with the surroundings and obviously also helps local economy	00:42
mikhas	interesting concept	00:42
lcuk	I hope I remembered that correctly	00:43
Treibholz	in the last 20 years a lot of money was put in the infrastructure of eastern Germany, so this is a quite good idea, to use it.	00:44
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lcuk	found a brief thing on it	00:49
lcuk	http://mynokiablog.com/2011/02/05/nokias-new-us-hq-in-sunnyvale-california-silicon-valley/	00:49
lcuk	Instead of creating a standalone enclosed campus, Nokia have renovated from bare skeleton a new corporate HQ. I’d say that fits Nokia’s green credentials. Nokia’s new building is close to amenities and the hundreds of new Nokia staff (and possibly their family) will revitalize the city with new business.	00:49
* RST38h yawns		00:49
b-man`	hmm	00:50
RST38h	lcuk: Man, you should go work at Nokia's public relations	00:50
* RST38h personally would like to see lcuk pitching the new WP7-based Nokia phone =)		00:50
lcuk	well depending on what club I use, I guess I could get it a couple of hundred yards at least	00:51
RST38h	hehe =)	00:51
b-man`	phone gulfing, now that sounds fun :)	00:52
merkavah	i would like to see revived development for n8x0 :)	00:52
unixSnob	wow.. gizmo5 is shutting down.. bummer!	00:53
ShadowJK_	There are already the phone throwing competitions in .fi, but usually the winning phones have been out of production for a decade :P	00:53
lcuk	merkavah, I just released new app for n8x0	00:53
merkavah	yeah. what to do get new Sip provider	00:54
merkavah	cool	00:54
lcuk	infact, all the apps I write should work on 8x0	00:54
lcuk	but, meh that is just because of how I started	00:54
unixSnob	gizmo5 was the only free sip provider that integrated with google voice, no?	00:55
merkavah	seems a lot of stuff i see is around 2009	00:55
merkavah	or less	00:55
merkavah	wacha making?	00:55
lcuk	merkavah, yeah but there are some	00:55
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lcuk	afaik, puzzlemaster is one of the more recent games	00:55
lcuk	that now work on n8x0	00:55
lcuk	that is written in Qt too	00:55
lcuk	all it usually takes is careful thought about using standard API	00:56
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: and I really love your work for that aspect (as well) - please keep it like that	00:56
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, it would be difficult not to	00:56
merkavah	i have a sipgate account, maybe have to put it on my 810	00:56
lcuk	I would have to really fsck the code up to stop it from working!	00:56
DocScrutinizer	nah, it's too darn easy to forget about it and code botch	00:56
lcuk	though I do have a couple of bugs	00:57
lcuk	people do not like the top left corner dashboard switcher	00:57
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lcuk	and think the back button is not needed	00:57
lcuk	(eascape and switcher are hardkeys on n8x0)	00:57
DocScrutinizer	merkavah: I'm using sipgate with stock diablo on N810, works like a charm	00:57
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merkavah	$8~3 @9~ :k	00:58
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merkavah	nice, doc :)	00:58
merkavah	i thought of mer but havent yet	00:59
DocScrutinizer	of course - depending on your particular router - you need to open up and forward some ports, possibly disable SIP-ALG, etc. But that's not related to maemo SIP support in any way	01:00
zanberdo	not sure if this question is best asked here, but I've recently installed the pidgin-otr from extras-devel and though it installed just fine when I try to initiate a private conversation I'm never prompted to select the method for handling the public/private key... just get an error that 'length error'. anyone know anything about this?	01:00
rhkfin	CSSU anyone? How long is it supposed to install and what should I do if i've had black screen for ~hour? Backlight responses.	01:00
ThreeM	10 min	01:01
lcuk	rhkfin, #maemo-ssu	01:01
ThreeM	if installed just right now :)	01:01
rhkfin	lcuk: been there, quiet..	01:01
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DocScrutinizer	:-P	01:01
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ThreeM	be patient :)	01:02
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merkavah	AFNit	01:03
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DocScrutinizer	general advice: when rebooting, unplug USB prior to device shutdown	01:18
DocScrutinizer	boot from battery, replug charger when system is up	01:19
lcuk	ahem DocScrutinizer, that is not general advice :P	01:19
DocScrutinizer	it can't hurt, no?	01:19
lcuk	general advice: tying your shoe laces correctly helps prevent accidents	01:19
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lcuk	why does that matter though GeneralAntilles	01:20
lcuk	errr DocScrutinizer	01:20
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: how is optification dealing with act_dead on initial boot?	01:20
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DocScrutinizer	I thought it's a very poor idea to interrupt the post-install optification copy process by a reboot. "powering up" device from ACT_DEAD is such a reboot though	01:22
DocScrutinizer	afaik	01:22
DocScrutinizer	well, maybe no complete reboot, but enough of a boot to kill of the copy halfway, if it got started in ACT_DEAD	01:23
DocScrutinizer	s/ of a / off a /	01:23
infobot	DocScrutinizer meant: well, maybe no complete reboot, but enough off a boot to kill of the copy halfway, if it got started in ACT_DEAD	01:23
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, specifically not sure, since the optification stuff should have already either been done in postinst (if ssu) or already preinstalled yonks ago	01:23
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: after rootfs flash, the first bot shouldn't be one that enters ACT_DEAD, no?	01:24
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lcuk	IDK	01:25
* lcuk hones		01:25
lcuk	t	01:25
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DocScrutinizer	lcuk: I don't know either, so the advice isn't a hoax	01:29
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, I never said it was a hoax	01:29
lcuk	but context is everything	01:29
lcuk	this is not -ssu channel, and most people reboot normally	01:29
DocScrutinizer	generally an install that needs a reboot is considering that next bootup to enter full working mode, not ACT_DEAD and get interrupted after 10s when user decides to "switch on" the device	01:30
lcuk	had you prefixed it with saying "when doing updates ..."	01:30
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DocScrutinizer	ok, granted	01:31
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DocScrutinizer	general advice: when rebooting according to advice of any installation process (or reboot triggered automatically by such process), unplug USB prior to device shutdown	01:32
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DocScrutinizer	factoid: N900 keyboard matrix isn't made to cope with arbitrary N-key rollover. Don't expect all 3-key and esp 4-key combinations to work reliably	01:59
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DocScrutinizer	there's a list of "not working" 3-key combos: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Subsystems#Keyboard - for 4-key combos (ctrl-shift-blue-<char>) you're on your own	02:01
DocScrutinizer	(another nice example why N900 is NOT just a miniaturized PC, and why you need to keep in mind this fact even while designing userland apps)	02:04
jacekowski	well, how many key presses typical pc keyboard can do	02:04
jacekowski	your standard average keyboard can only do like 4-5	02:04
DocScrutinizer	depends, usually they have full N-key rollover	02:05
jacekowski	and only some limited combinations	02:05
DocScrutinizer	at very least fo all the qualifier keys	02:05
jacekowski	not all of hem	02:05
jacekowski	gaming keyboards can do like 10 keys	02:05
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jacekowski	my old ibm keyboard couldn't do left+right alt at the same time	02:06
DocScrutinizer	you hardly find any PC kbd that can't handle ctrl-shift-alt-<anykey>	02:06
jacekowski	new keyboard	02:06
jacekowski	try like 5 years ago	02:07
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DocScrutinizer	never found any	02:07
jacekowski	i'm just watching tron	02:09
jacekowski	and there is nice nix thing there	02:10
jacekowski	around 22:55	02:10
jacekowski	he's using real nix commands and getting real results	02:10
b-man`	ah, i remember that scene :D	02:12
ZogG	jacekowski, did you bought that film?	02:15
ZogG	you are pirate	02:15
jacekowski	ZogG: nope	02:15
jacekowski	not in this case	02:16
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gomiam	erm... is there an md5sum package for Diablo at a repository?	02:21
gomiam	(I could do with a .deb instead)	02:21
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steve___	Does the n900 come default with a screen protector already on it?	02:35
fellu	No	02:36
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steve___	fellu: thanks.	02:36
fellu	Just some black sticker	02:36
fellu	Cannot see thru it	02:36
SpeedEvil	You can.	02:36
SpeedEvil	Sort-of.	02:36
SpeedEvil	But not really.	02:37
SpeedEvil	It's good enough to see the screen is working.	02:37
SpeedEvil	And that the device has booted normally	02:37
SpeedEvil	But not much more.	02:37
DocScrutinizer	yeah, anyway screen protectors really impair the nice sensitivity of the N900 touchscreen	02:37
nidO	screen protectors arent needed anyway if you make use of a case + care	02:38
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DocScrutinizer	depending on your usage patterns it might be worth considering a touchpanel swap for ~80EUR after some 2..4 years rather than to get annoyed about a 20bucks screen protector turning N900 in a dull piece of hw	02:39
SpeedEvil	I disagree	02:39
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SpeedEvil	I find screen protectors completely essential	02:40
SpeedEvil	I however tend to abuse my device accidentally.	02:40
nidO	thats where the "care" part comes in :P	02:40
SpeedEvil	I was gardening, and accidentally put the seccateurs in the wrong pocket, and bent down and up a hundred times.	02:40
DocScrutinizer	that's why I said "depending on your usage pattern..."	02:40
SpeedEvil	Screen protector was damn near opaque.	02:40
nidO	my n900 lives in its' leather case 100% of the time it's not being used	02:40
SpeedEvil	On more rational usage - I got addicted to blocks for a bit.	02:41
nidO	screen with no protector on it's still flawless	02:41
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DocScrutinizer	nidO: nope, you also charge it ;-P	02:41
SpeedEvil	That killed the screen.	02:41
nidO	DocScrutinizer: yeah true fair enough, it lives in its' case whenever it's anywhere other than in my hands or on its' stand	02:42
SpeedEvil	If you use fingers, then it's hard to scratch if that's how you use it	02:42
SpeedEvil	Fingertips	02:42
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nidO	i use both fingers and stylus, but im always intentionally careful when using the stylus	02:43
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BCMM	i've found that the stylus that comes with it can not scratch the screen	02:44
SpeedEvil	Hard to IME tell when you've got a microscopic bit of grit on the stylus though.	02:44
SpeedEvil	Which can scratch the screen.	02:44
BCMM	same with a finger	02:44
BCMM	well, you can feel microscopic objects with a fingertip actually, but still possible	02:44
DocScrutinizer	actually the single microscopic scar I got in one of the N900 screens was with fingernail when teher's been some sand or glass or whatever that stcked to that fingernail	02:45
nidO	the stylus's that Fake was/is selling seem like theyre probably a bit better than the nokia one at avoiding scratches, the tip seems to be made of slightly softer plastic	02:45
BCMM	i did totally ruin a screen protector, before i stopped using them, by getting addicted to a game	02:45
BCMM	you could see all the in-game buttons on the screen protector when i got rid of it	02:45
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SpeedEvil	With a finger, it's _really_ hard to scratch the screen, even with a bit of grit - using the fingertip	02:45
SpeedEvil	Not so with a nail, of course.	02:46
SpeedEvil	Oddly, I found that a sharp green wood stylus was awesome from a 'not attracting grit' POV	02:46
SpeedEvil	I used a japanese maple twig from a tree in the garden, lightly whittled	02:47
DocScrutinizer	:-D	02:47
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TiagoTiago	somthing went bad with my accounts :(	03:20
TiagoTiago	everything was set to disabled , the passwords were gone and the display names were reset to the respective usernames, and it seems msetting things again doesn't make login work :(	03:22
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TiagoTiago	any idea what is going on?	03:26
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GeneralAntilles	Android Market reviewers are idiots.	03:28
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TiagoTiago	gah, things are even worse, the Settings app is CTDing on launch Dx	03:28
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jakemaheu	Evening.	03:30
TiagoTiago	hm, somthing is seriouslly fucked up, can't open more than one terminal window anymore....	03:31
jacekowski	you clik on top bar	03:32
jacekowski	and select new window there?	03:32
TiagoTiago	that worked	03:32
jakemaheu	If there are any kernel hackers here, please ping me. :)	03:33
jacekowski	don't ask to ask just ask	03:33
TiagoTiago	control-shift-X isn't doing anything though	03:33
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jacekowski	TiagoTiago: try flashing it	03:34
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lcuk2	jakemaheu, convention usually says, present your question in a way which explains the problem efficiently and let people decide to answer	03:34
TiagoTiago	don't got a PC avaiable (mine is down, mobo issues it seems)	03:34
TiagoTiago	and it would be a pain to reinstall and set everything again, not to mention backing up all the individual files and folders i don't wanna loose	03:35
TiagoTiago	what is the command to launch the Settings app from terminal?	03:35
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jakemaheu	I lost the battery cover for my N800. Because of the sensor for the internal card slot, I can't use the card and swap file. Is there any way to disable the sensor?	03:36
jacekowski	not really	03:37
jacekowski	you could hack kernel to do it	03:37
jacekowski	but rebuilding it is a pain	03:37
jacekowski	just get a magnet	03:37
jacekowski	and how to fuck you've lost a back cover?	03:37
jakemaheu	Or, suggest a place I can get a back cover..	03:38
jacekowski	ebay	03:38
jakemaheu	nope, checked	03:38
jacekowski	where are you?	03:39
jakemaheu	US	03:39
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TiagoTiago	other than reflashing, can you think of any alternatives?	03:41
jakemaheu	what term are you using?	03:41
TiagoTiago	me?	03:42
jakemaheu	yeah	03:42
TiagoTiago	the one that comes with the N900	03:42
jakemaheu	xterm, then?	03:42
TiagoTiago	i think so	03:42
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DocScrutinizer51	jakemaheu: still same as suggested some hours ago: use an arbitrary magnet	03:44
DocScrutinizer51	jakemaheu: what happened to your shortterm memory?	03:44
jakemaheu	i'd prefer to have a cover :[	03:44
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DocScrutinizer	that's no explanation why you ask same thing that got answered before already	03:45
lcuk2	jakemaheu, ask on the maemo forums	03:45
lcuk2	see if anyone has a spares/repairs device and will part with a cover	03:45
lcuk2	and follow DocScrutinizer's advice with a magnet until you can get one	03:46
lcuk2	alternatively, ask nokia	03:46
TiagoTiago	is there a way i can get a list of installeted packages sorted by the order they were installed?	03:47
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DocScrutinizer	why would you need sortorder install-time?	03:49
lcuk2	TiagoTiago, yes there is something	03:50
lcuk2	you can ls a folder	03:50
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lcuk2	and it has it in, but i cannot remember which folder	03:50
lcuk2	DocScrutinizer, its good to know what you installed and the order you did it	03:50
DocScrutinizer	/var/apt/cche/bla	03:50
lcuk2	because all things needed for something are clustered	03:50
DocScrutinizer	hmm, k	03:51
lcuk2	i just asked exactly this in rpm	03:51
TiagoTiago	I wanna see which packages got installed more recently to try uninstalling them and see if that fix things	03:51
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jakemaheu	Whoops, forgot to charge my tablet :P	03:52
DocScrutinizer	ls -l /opt	03:52
DocScrutinizer	should kinda help a bit	03:52
TiagoTiago	hm, seems FAPMAN lets you sort by date, is that really the install date?	03:53
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DocScrutinizer	find /opt -executable -ls	03:55
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DocScrutinizer	duh, nm. That's compile date usually	03:56
DocScrutinizer	...it seems	03:56
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nox-	yeah i was just about to wonder...	03:56
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nox-	the debs are just unpacked, keeping timestamps intact	03:57
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DocScrutinizer	yep	03:57
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DocScrutinizer	so back to ls -l /var/cache/apt/archives/	03:58
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DocScrutinizer	meh, same	03:59
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TiagoTiago	isn't there a log somewhere that says what was installed when?	04:00
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TiagoTiago	btw, does the N900 got a wayto schedule a boottime file system checkup?	04:02
cehteh	iirc the power kernel tools had something	04:03
DocScrutinizer	not sure about ls -lc /var/cache/apt/archives/	04:03
lcuk2	TiagoTiago, http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2009-02-08.log.html#t2009-02-08T01:20:48	04:04
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TiagoTiago	hm	04:05
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lcuk2	TiagoTiago, plenty of suggestions :)	04:05
lcuk2	and actual info	04:06
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lcuk2	I used that to do whatever I needed - infact, I setup a bookmark on my sftp client	04:06
TiagoTiago	shit, browser is CTDing too	04:06
lcuk2	so I could see	04:06
TiagoTiago	should i try rebooting or the less i reboot the better right now?	04:06
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DocScrutinizer	ls -l /var/lib/dpkg/info/*.list \| awk '{print $6 " "$7" "$8}' \| sed s/.list// \| sort ;# just nice :-D	04:07
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GeneralAntilles	Man, Android sucks more than I remember.	04:08
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TiagoTiago	only shows the dates, but not the stuff associated with them	04:10
TiagoTiago	is 380mb free on /home enough?	04:12
wmarone__	GeneralAntilles: and it will never suck less	04:14
jakemaheu	Since Mugen has the BP-5L out of stock, are there any other companies that make decent high-capacity batteries?	04:16
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DocScrutinizer	TiagoTiago: what do you mean by "associated with them"? a complete graph of rdepends is a quite huge thing	04:16
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TiagoTiago	wasn't that a list o dates of when things were installed?	04:17
DocScrutinizer	yes, so?	04:17
TiagoTiago	it only shows the when, i wanna also know the what	04:18
DocScrutinizer	isn't that clear by the name of the file? o.O	04:18
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DocScrutinizer	I mean, what more do you need?	04:19
TiagoTiago	wait, what filename?	04:19
DocScrutinizer	2011-01-19 19:31 /var/lib/dpkg/info/orrery	04:19
DocScrutinizer	2011-01-22 18:55 /var/lib/dpkg/info/libmarble	04:20
DocScrutinizer	2011-01-22 18:55 /var/lib/dpkg/info/marble	04:20
DocScrutinizer	2011-01-22 18:55 /var/lib/dpkg/info/marble-data	04:20
DocScrutinizer	2011-01-22 18:55 /var/lib/dpkg/info/marble-plugins	04:20
DocScrutinizer	2011-01-22 18:57 /var/lib/dpkg/info/marble-maps	04:20
DocScrutinizer	2011-01-26 18:26 /var/lib/dpkg/info/flashlight-applet	04:20
TiagoTiago	with me it only outputs the date and time....	04:20
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TiagoTiago	actually, it just gives me month, day and then hour and minute, no year nor seconds	04:21
DocScrutinizer	sorry dude, copied from backscroll here and pasted to xterm, works	04:21
TiagoTiago	sorry, the seconds are there	04:22
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TiagoTiago	weird...	04:22
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DocScrutinizer	meh, blame:	04:22
DocScrutinizer	~messybox	04:22
infobot	messy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils	04:22
DocScrutinizer	use a decent shell, use bash	04:23
TiagoTiago	no, sorry, i was right the first time, no seconds	04:23
TiagoTiago	ok	04:23
TiagoTiago	same result inside bash....	04:25
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DocScrutinizer	nope, here it works in bash while I get your result in messybox	04:25
DocScrutinizer	maybe you should install coreutils as well, ls in bash still is busybox ls	04:26
DocScrutinizer	you can tell by `ls --help`	04:26
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DocScrutinizer	IroN900:~# busybox ls -l /var/lib/dpkg/info/zlib1g.list	04:30
DocScrutinizer	-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 284 Oct 30 2009 /var/lib/dpkg/info/zlib1g.list	04:30
DocScrutinizer	IroN900:~# ls -l /var/lib/dpkg/info/zlib1g.list	04:30
DocScrutinizer	-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 284 2009-10-30 12:29 /var/lib/dpkg/info/zlib1g.list	04:30
jakemaheu	Any high-capacity battery sugggestions? ^_^;;	04:30
TiagoTiago	i got core-utils gnu installed, but the plain core-utils asks me to uninstall lots of stuff to install it....	04:30
jakemaheu	For the N800.	04:30
DocScrutinizer	TiagoTiago: then make sure you are using coreutils-gnu ls in the cmdline I posted	04:31
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DocScrutinizer	probably gls	04:31
TiagoTiago	how do i do that?	04:31
DocScrutinizer	iirc	04:31
DocScrutinizer	or /bin/gnu/ls or sth	04:31
DocScrutinizer	/usr/bin/gnu/ls --help	04:32
DocScrutinizer	gls --help	04:32
DocScrutinizer	ls --help	04:33
DocScrutinizer	IroN900:~# echo $PATH	04:33
DocScrutinizer	/usr/bin/gnu:/usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/bin/X11	04:33
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TiagoTiago	there we go, thx	04:33
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TiagoTiago	is it safe to make bash and the gnu coreutills the default in the N900?	04:34
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DocScrutinizer	not really	04:36
DocScrutinizer	I think coreutils for default breaks boot	04:36
DocScrutinizer	just because of such incompatibilities like the one you just witnessed	04:36
TiagoTiago	hm, that list isn't up-to-date it seems, i've installed lots of shit this year but the list starts with december of 2010....	04:36
DocScrutinizer	it might be incomplete, if var/lib/dpkg/info got cleaned by whatever	04:37
DocScrutinizer	also of course a reflash is like a new install, even when you restore backup	04:38
DocScrutinizer	so odds are you reflashed in dec 2010?	04:38
TiagoTiago	no, new stuff is missing but old stuff is there	04:38
DocScrutinizer	hmm, nfi	04:39
TiagoTiago	~nfi	04:39
infobot	well, nfi is No Fucking Idea	04:39
TiagoTiago	does Maemo Synaptic bypasses the procedure that leaves traces where that command reads from?	04:40
TiagoTiago	That is what i usually use for installing, uninstalling and upgrading programs, HAM freezes too much, FAPMAN doesn't work (complains about repositories), and apt-get lacks a nice GUI	04:44
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DocScrutinizer	btw the busybox ls date format was about the first thing I cursed on linux, some >15 years ago	04:45
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DocScrutinizer	back then it's been standard format of ls	04:45
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GeneralAntilles	Seriously, Android. . . .	04:47
GeneralAntilles	This is what people use and they LIKE it?!	04:47
* DocScrutinizer cackles		04:47
* DocScrutinizer cackles satanically		04:47
TiagoTiago	What were they thinking when they choose busybox for their pseudo-flagship hackerphone?	04:47
DocScrutinizer	~messybox	04:47
infobot	messy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils	04:47
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DocScrutinizer	for lean scripting which is fast with small memory footprint it's quite OK I guess	04:48
DocScrutinizer	nah, actually not even then, which is proven by the annoying initscript incompatibilities	04:49
DocScrutinizer	GeneralAntilles: what's that shell on Andridiot? X-D	04:50
TiagoTiago	Kinda sounds like they didn't really knew what they were doing and just went with what their friend that worked at a computer store suggested...	04:51
cehteh	DocScrutinizer: beanshell? :)	04:51
DocScrutinizer	lol	04:52
DocScrutinizer	do you operate it via browser rather than xterm?	04:52
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cehteh	possibly :P	04:52
cehteh	you know ajaxterm btw?	04:53
DocScrutinizer	jeah, heard of it	04:53
DocScrutinizer	yeah even	04:53
TiagoTiago	Would it be possible for the community to develop a fixed version of Maemo5 that works with bash and gnu coreutils or the parts that are dependent on bb are closed source?	04:53
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DocScrutinizer	there's been an article in c't some years ago	04:53
DocScrutinizer	a lot is closed source	04:54
cehteh	there is closed source in bb?	04:54
cehteh	didnt know that	04:54
DocScrutinizer	but for coreutils and shell there's no real problem	04:54
TiagoTiago	any idea how i can fix my N900 (messed up Accounts' acounts, lots of programs CTDing on launch ) without reflashing?	04:54
cehteh	yes you can replace anything and just keep busybox around for the messy parts	04:55
DocScrutinizer	which is pretty much what I do	04:55
TiagoTiago	Are there plans of doing that in the CSSU project?	04:55
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DocScrutinizer	don't think so, that's mainly admin stuff, you can do it yourself basically	04:56
DocScrutinizer	see, that cmdline worked "ootb" on my N900 bash+*-utils setup	04:57
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cehteh	btw i dint cared yet but where can i get CSSU? its not on the repos	04:57
DocScrutinizer	it's an own repo	04:57
TiagoTiago	Wouldn't that save the users from lots of headaches etc and not have any sinificant downsdides?	04:57
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cehteh	TiagoTiago: normal userland is much bigger	04:57
DocScrutinizer	TiagoTiago: it will break on next SSU	04:57
cehteh	the only advantage of busybox is that it is small :P	04:58
TiagoTiago	will there be one outside of the CSSU?	04:58
cehteh	there are alreaady ...	04:58
DocScrutinizer	cehteh: not that it really was THAT much bigger so it would make a diff on a device with 32GB storage	04:58
cehteh	DocScrutinizer: think about the ram for resident programs	04:59
cehteh	if it had 1GB ram then no problem .. but 256m .. damnit	04:59
DocScrutinizer	last time SpeedEvil checked, the diff between bash and busybox memory footprint wasn't really significant	04:59
TiagoTiago	any idea how i can fix my N900 (messed up Accounts' acounts, lots of programs CTDing on launch ) without reflashing?	05:00
cehteh	with all libs and accounting for all programs served by busybox?	05:00
DocScrutinizer	TiagoTiago: sorry	05:00
cehteh	TiagoTiago: replay your backup :P	05:00
TiagoTiago	don't got one recent enough :(	05:01
cehteh	mine strangely doesnt boot with usb connected .. something is borked	05:01
cehteh	but i dont want to reflash	05:01
DocScrutinizer	cehteh: progs served by busybox are temporary, so memusage is irrelevant	05:01
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TiagoTiago	rebooting with the charger on often doesn't work every since one or two power kernel versions ago	05:01
cehteh	yesh	05:02
GeneralAntilles	Why do Android idiots call dding a .img to an SD card burning. . . .	05:02
DocScrutinizer	pff	05:02
nox-	haha	05:02
cehteh	exiting hot stuff for java progammers :)	05:02
nox-	or maybe they thought about cds?	05:03
DocScrutinizer	in germany there's an answer to that "vermutlich brennt ihnen der Kittel"	05:03
nox-	hehe	05:03
DocScrutinizer	which roughly translates to "their suit is burning"	05:04
TiagoTiago	what is the terminal command to launch microB?	05:04
DocScrutinizer	err, some dbus magic	05:04
TiagoTiago	i wanna see if it is spitting any errors	05:04
DocScrutinizer	oops, that won't work this way	05:05
DocScrutinizer	try browserd	05:05
DocScrutinizer	meh, browser	05:05
TiagoTiago	great, the wall charger isn't providing enough power to charge...	05:06
DocScrutinizer	ouch	05:06
DocScrutinizer	what you're doing on that device? downloading HD video streams via UMTS and playback it on device?	05:07
* GeneralAntilles pounds head on desk.		05:07
TiagoTiago	i think somthing might have gone really wrong physicly, no idea what	05:07
GeneralAntilles	They're like small, broken children.	05:07
DocScrutinizer	GeneralAntilles: better fetch a huge hammer to adjust that andridiot device	05:08
* GeneralAntilles needs a MeeGo image.		05:09
TiagoTiago	gonna try shutting down and leave it charging to full, if you don't see me around for a few days i'm probably looking for a new N900 or a repair service that can outdo Nokia (which is probably not that hard)	05:09
TiagoTiago	cya	05:09
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GeneralAntilles	Seriously.	05:15
DocScrutinizer	another android fan is born ;-P	05:16
GeneralAntilles	This makes me so much more depressed about Nokia's recent strategic changes.	05:17
* GeneralAntilles rages.		05:17
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pupnik_	eveningk	05:20
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GeneralAntilles	pupnik, howdy.	05:25
pupnik	hi GeneralAntilles	05:25
pupnik	playin with e71 and e72 right now. in some ways they're quite nice, in other ways they're like a straightjacket	05:26
pupnik	symbian doesn't even let you change your keyboard layout	05:26
GeneralAntilles	Playing with Android right now.	05:26
pupnik	what device	05:26
GeneralAntilles	I want to put ice picks in my eyes.	05:26
pupnik	lol why	05:26
GeneralAntilles	NOOKColor	05:27
GeneralAntilles	'Cause it was cheap and I want to put MeeGo on it.	05:27
pupnik	how is the display in bright light?	05:27
GeneralAntilles	Dunno yet.	05:27
GeneralAntilles	Only had it in dark.	05:27
pupnik	e71 and e72 in sexxy black http://i.imgur.com/hchk0.jpg	05:28
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pupnik	GeneralAntilles: so basically it's a standard lcd display?	05:29
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GeneralAntilles	IPS	05:29
pupnik	price?	05:29
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DocScrutinizer	lcuk: http://paste.debian.net/109618/ (apt.get wrapper to keep a log)	05:31
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GeneralAntilles	200	05:33
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DocScrutinizer	lire	05:35
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DocScrutinizer	well, saving devices by replacing andridiot by anything better is a oble thing for sure :-)	05:36
DocScrutinizer	noble*	05:37
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pupnik	DocScrutinizer: have you managed to swap one of those camera modules without the special nokia tool?	05:39
pupnik	it's clipped in there pretty good - i can't see how to loosen it	05:40
DocScrutinizer	never tried it	05:41
DocScrutinizer	I guess there's a reason they offer a special tool for that	05:41
pupnik	looks like e72 and n900 share the same 5.0 mp camera	05:42
pupnik	maybe not	05:42
DocScrutinizer	probably there are latches down the bay, and you need to push them back by pushing down a thin thing between cam and bay on all 4 sides	05:42
GeneralAntilles	Ugh	05:43
pupnik	nokia wants me to pay 30-50 euro to at a nokia service center to change symbian keyboard layout	05:44
pupnik	lol	05:44
DocScrutinizer	muhaha	05:44
DocScrutinizer	well, maybe with swap of keymat	05:44
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pupnik	yeah well i have to swap-in a german keymat here http://i.imgur.com/hchk0.jpg	05:45
pupnik	beautiful devices though - just feel great in the hand	05:45
luke-jr	so um	05:45
luke-jr	one of the companies I do work for had a crisis today and I bailed them out	05:46
luke-jr	CEO sez he owns me an iPad 2	05:46
luke-jr	which probably sucks due to Apple crap, but what else is comparable? XD	05:46
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pupnik	how about something preferable	05:47
DocScrutinizer	pupnik: doesn't look like the keymats would match	05:48
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pupnik	they are different keymats yes, i'm just repairing the e72	05:48
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TiagoTiago	ok, charger working again, programs launching again	07:25
TiagoTiago	still got issues with Accounts	07:25
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TiagoTiago	gonna try set the passwords again	07:27
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TiagoTiago	Ok, working again; any idea why the passwords were all gone?	07:30
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*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer		07:47
*** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo http://maemo.org/intro/ \| http://maemo.nokia.com/ \| Maemo Community Council http://maemo.org/community/council \| Source: http://mxr.maemo.org/ http://maemo.gitorious.org/ http://meego.gitorious.org/ \| Chanlog: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog \| Just one more week to council elections! http://maemo.org/community/council/maemo_community_council_elections_approaching/"		07:48
*** ChanServ sets mode: -o DocScrutinizer		07:48
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pupnik	dealing with closed-source phones really is a pain in the behind	07:55
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DocScrutinizer	nah, it's mere fun ;-D	08:05
DocScrutinizer	actually I didn't manage to find out why my 6210 sometimes broke on sending DTMF - though I tried ~10 years to find a pattern/cause	08:07
DocScrutinizer	don't worry, live with it. You can't change it anyway	08:07
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* DocScrutinizer cackles on meego developers edition and the call for coounity participation. Sure, now everything changes to the better, now that Nokia officially participates		08:09
DocScrutinizer	s/coounity/comunity/.	08:10
DocScrutinizer	@council: who of you will be available for another term, i.e. for re-election for council? Who definitly won't?	08:17
DocScrutinizer	GeneralAntilles: what's up with you?	08:17
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pupnik	"in france you are only allowed to use WLAN indoors"	08:34
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RST38h	zee french!...	08:35
pupnik	wow, e72 feaures 'remote sim mode'	08:35
pupnik	lol	08:35
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DocScrutinizer	lol? wow! doubts	08:41
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DocScrutinizer	host, client, or both?	08:41
DocScrutinizer	via BT, via FBUS, via WLAN?	08:41
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DocScrutinizer	could you please start pnatd in xterm and see what it answers to AT+CSIM?	08:42
DocScrutinizer	;-P	08:42
pupnik	just reading the docs DocScrutinizer	08:47
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DocScrutinizer	(indoors) is a tent indoors? is usage on a balkony indoors?	08:47
pupnik	heh	08:48
pupnik	from this http://nds1.nokia.com/phones/files/guides/Nokia_E72_UG_en.pdf	08:48
DocScrutinizer	meh, French. Where the techblogs don't know mini-USB from micro-USB	08:50
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pupnik	If ignorance is not an excuse for the law, how do we explain Congress?	09:02
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TiagoTiago	Didn't the french pass a law forbiding people from choosing how to dress above the neck?	09:32
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TiagoTiago	Someone should do a ninja parade there with hundreds of people covered from head to toe in black stealth ninja suits....	09:33
ilius	!offtopic	09:35
pupnik	a parade of ninjas would be hard to see	09:36
TiagoTiago	Imagine the news footage, riot police facing off a batallion of ninjas!	09:36
TiagoTiago	with a*	09:36
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pupnik	maybe the n950 will have dual-wifi cards for mesh networking	09:37
TiagoTiago	have you heard of "super wifi"? Some people wanna use wifi over analog TV frequencies to go further and deeper with the same wattage	09:38
pupnik	cool	09:38
pupnik	reflections suck	09:38
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TiagoTiago	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_WiFi	09:40
pupnik	ty TiagoTiago - very interesting	09:41
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TiagoTiago	yw	09:43
TiagoTiago	I wonder if it woud be possible to control the sending of bits to the point of tricking analog TV receivers into recognizing the signal as images and/or sounds	09:45
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khertan_	DocScrutinizer, if only mini-USB and micro-USB was the only problem	09:53
DocScrutinizer	hah	09:54
khertan_	for them the rumored specs of the n950 is official	09:55
khertan_	and it s also a mini usb :)	09:55
khertan_	<pupnik> "in france you are only allowed to use WLAN indoors" <<< nope ... you can paid to get a licence, or use restricted paid to use wlan from phone carrier	09:56
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* khertan_ try a new ide for Python Dev ... Aptana studio ... 5 min to agree that it s not for me ;) (1min to load a simple python file on a quad core i5 with 8Go of ram and file located on a ssd)		10:01
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khertan_	n950 : http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Phenom-II-X4-N950-Notebook-Processor.37490.0.html	10:03
khertan_	;)	10:04
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khertan_	http://www.meego-os.fr/public/Meego/.N950-2010_m.jpg <<< -- original n900 concept	10:06
gfvirga	Hello, yall!!!! Could someone help me with a bricked phone?	10:06
* dm8tbr hands some mortaar		10:07
TiagoTiago	Kinda on topic; how challenging would it be to design a device similar to the N900 that has a main processor being an ARM but also got a coprocessor that is based on the x86 architecture, with the device being capable of using binaries copiled for both ARM and x86 processors, multitasking, without needing to booth into alternate OS to switch architecture?	10:09
gfvirga	I created the thread today http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=70657, I managed to install the FIASCO then the EMMC without rebooting. But the Maemo doesnt boot :(	10:09
gfvirga	ops	10:09
psycho_oreos	did you verify the download of the firmware to see if it matches with the file provided online?	10:12
dm8tbr	TiagoTiago: skip the copro, go for qemu :)	10:13
TiagoTiago	won't qemu reduce the performance significantly?	10:14
dm8tbr	I'd like to see benchmarks. preferably for a hardfloat qemu	10:16
gfvirga	Whats qemu?	10:18
gfvirga	I checkedsum the files they are normal	10:19
gfvirga	Identical	10:19
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TiagoTiago	it's an emulator capable of emulating systems in several different architectures	10:22
gfvirga	Ohh, I wanted to try maemo really bad :( .	10:25
* dm8tbr thinks gfvirga confuses two separate conversations		10:26
TiagoTiago	indeed	10:26
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gfvirga	sorry, I better sleep	10:27
gfvirga	see youu	10:27
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TiagoTiago	ok...	10:27
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Jaffa	Morning, all	11:40
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: Sorry, was busy yesterday - didn't see it. Will do it today, though	11:40
TiagoTiago	is there a way i can make Hildon ignore child windows of a program, letting me choose to have the main window focused even when the childwindow tries to be on top?	11:41
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TiagoTiago	Anyone?	11:49
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TiagoTiago	balls :(	12:03
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TiagoTiago	is there a way i can make Hildon ignore child windows of a program, letting me choose to have the main window focused even when the childwindow tries to be on top?	12:31
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TiagoTiago	oh well, i'm heading off, cya	12:57
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Jaffa	Anyone done anything with QML & the accelerometer (i.e. QtMobility.sensors)	13:43
MohammadAG	cue complaints about high cpu usage	13:45
Jaffa	Well, indeed.	13:46
Jaffa	Just testing something for now	13:46
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Jaffa	"module "QtMobility.sensors" is not installed" - gah	13:47
lcuk	Jaffa, what are you trying to accelerate? :P	13:47
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Jaffa	lcuk: Playing with latest Qt SDK and thinking of targetting Symbian, Maemo and MeeGo. But there're still annoying gaps.	13:52
lcuk	Jaffa, are you remaking attitude?	13:53
Jaffa	Yeah	13:53
Jaffa	Something nice and simple to start with	13:53
lcuk	cool beans	13:53
Jaffa	Developing the QML is relatively straightforward (although the designer now doesn't like it since I've pulled in Accelerometer). But getting it deployed and running on an actual device is too frustrating.	13:53
alterego	I had one of my N900s hooked up to a 42" HDTV last night in a pub and let people write messages using MyPaint for a mates' birthday.	13:54
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lcuk	haha alterego :D	13:55
alterego	Went down really well.	13:55
lcuk	simple lowest common denominator	13:55
lcuk	alterego, last time I had n900 hooked up to a projector	13:56
lcuk	my cats went mental for lines being drawn on the wall	13:56
alterego	Hahah	13:56
Jaffa	Something around http://wiki.forum.nokia.com/index.php/Latest_Qt_and_Qt_mobility_evaluation_on_Maemo perhaps	13:56
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lcuk	Jaffa, will you be able to do the same sort of rotation and custom drawing you have in attitude?	13:58
lcuk	ie for the horizon and scale guide lines?	13:58
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Jaffa	lcuk: I think so	14:00
lcuk	haha	14:00
Jaffa	lcuk: And I think I can do it all in QML	14:00
lcuk	the simpler ones you could make end up looking like what I did in liqbase as a first step	14:01
lcuk	http://liqbase.net/liq.20090830_175314.liqaccelview_alternative1.scr.png	14:01
lcuk	like that	14:01
lcuk	ie, that does not involve rotation or 3d but will simply show your code is working etc	14:02
* Jaffa has the sky, ground & angle display done		14:02
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lcuk	sweet	14:02
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lcuk	Jaffa, did you see any of the tweets I did from yesterday, had a twitter guy follow me from @Dubai_villa and went looking at them, absolutely breathtaking stuff on the Palm island!	14:04
Jaffa	Yeah, shiny. Been there :-)	14:04
lcuk	nice	14:05
lcuk	where did you stay?	14:05
Jaffa	The Al Jameiriah Beach, IIRC	14:07
Jaffa	Next to the big tall hotel on the beach which is the posh one in all the adverts	14:07
Jaffa	Yeah, it was: http://www.jumeirah.com/hotels-and-resorts/destinations/dubai/jumeirah-beach-hotel/	14:08
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lcuk	nice Jaffa	14:10
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jonwil	whats nice?	14:10
lcuk	<lcuk> Jaffa, did you see any of the tweets I did from yesterday, had a twitter guy follow me from @Dubai_villa and went looking at them, absolutely breathtaking stuff on the Palm island!	14:11
lcuk	<Jaffa> Yeah, shiny. Been there :-)	14:11
lcuk	<lcuk> nice	14:11
lcuk	<lcuk> where did you stay?	14:11
lcuk	<Jaffa> The Al Jameiriah Beach, IIRC	14:11
lcuk	<Jaffa> Next to the big tall hotel on the beach which is the posh one in all the adverts	14:11
lcuk	<Jaffa> Yeah, it was: http://www.jumeirah.com/hotels-and-resorts/destinations/dubai/jumeirah-beach-hotel/	14:11
lcuk	jonwil, ^	14:11
jonwil	nice	14:11
jonwil	I wish I could go on holidays to somewhere nice :(	14:12
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psycho_oreos	why wish?	14:12
jonwil	no money	14:12
jonwil	:P	14:12
jonwil	Its called "N900s are expensive"	14:12
psycho_oreos	contracted?	14:13
jonwil	nope, my N900 is outright purchase	14:14
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psycho_oreos	well at least you won't have high upkeep	14:15
jonwil	yeah I am on really cheap plan	14:15
psycho_oreos	still can't see how or why N900 are expensive when you have bought it outright lol, I suppose you can now look forward to saving money up to travel	14:16
jonwil	The N900 cost me about $500	14:16
jonwil	thats AU$	14:16
psycho_oreos	a lot cheaper than what I paid, plus mine is on contract lol	14:17
jonwil	Plus I had a holiday recently (xmas time)	14:17
jonwil	Went to the Gold Coast to see the family	14:17
psycho_oreos	not bothered to also meetup with other maemo users floating around in qld? :D	14:18
jonwil	This was BEFORE I had the N900 :P	14:18
psycho_oreos	lol well I guess you can now look forward to saving money up then :)	14:18
jonwil	I have other things to save for	14:19
psycho_oreos	and you DID have a holiday lol, not working endlessly	14:19
jonwil	like my LEGO habit	14:19
psycho_oreos	heh	14:19
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Jaffa	jonwil: That was a work jolly	14:19
jonwil	lucky thing working for someone who pays for you to go to places	14:19
jonwil	Although I bet they only pay for the crappiest cheapest seats on the plane :P	14:20
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psycho_oreos	hey better than nothing :)	14:21
jonwil	yeah	14:21
jonwil	it depends on the airline as well	14:22
lcuk	jonwil, your workplace offers INSIDE seats?	14:22
jonwil	I have never worked anywhere that paid for travel	14:22
jonwil	or that required work travel at all for that matter	14:22
jonwil	Junior software engineers dont get to travel for work :)	14:23
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lcuk	jonwil, first thing you should do then is find out how to remove the "Junior" from your percepted job title	14:25
jonwil	right now I am between jobs and will take whatever I can get	14:26
jonwil	There is a lack of jobs around here unless you have 3+years in <technology I know nothing about>	14:26
* lcuk nods		14:26
jonwil	Maybe the Linux skills I am learning from playing with my N900 will help me land a job...	14:27
psycho_oreos	its a laughable farce the .au IT jobs. They outsourced basic IT and demand heaps for higher up management roles	14:28
jonwil	The #1 problem with the Austrlaian	14:28
jonwil	Australian IT industry are Recruitment Firms	14:28
jonwil	99.9% of the jobs I have applied for, my CV has vanished into a black hole at a recruitment firm	14:29
psycho_oreos	though if you are on the dole and have enlisted yourself to one of their recommended recruitment agencies, they tend to keep pushing you before they try and refer you into a job if you happen to be lucky enough	14:30
jonwil	I have one of the govt jobsearch agencies helping me out	14:30
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jonwil	but the jobs we apply to end up in the aformentioned black hole	14:31
jonwil	A google for "it recruitment perth" reveals a laundry list of companies, many of whom I have sent my CV to for one or more jobs and none of which I have ever heard back from...	14:32
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psycho_oreos	has happened to me before in qld, and I still end up not being in IT field, gotta love it.. kinda makes me think of tradies, you go through uni/tradesmanship and they try to place you in the job, otherwise the jobs tell you to get fucked	14:34
jacekowski	these firms are useless	14:35
jacekowski	it takes them year to find somebody if you are an employer	14:35
jacekowski	and it takes them year to respond if you're and employee	14:35
psycho_oreos	that's how they make money :)	14:35
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jacekowski	that's why i avoid any offers that don't lead directly to company	14:35
lcuk	jonwil, if you could find a way to show an employer that you would be as motivated in a real job as I have seen you recent weeks around maemo then you will have no trouble	14:36
lcuk	I am going getting dressed, cyas later \o	14:36
zutesmog	jonwil are you in perth ?	14:36
jonwil	yes	14:36
jonwil	Perth	14:36
jacekowski	hmm, an aussie	14:36
zutesmog	me too	14:36
jacekowski	i work with one aussie	14:36
jacekowski	he's soooooooooo annoying	14:36
jacekowski	and he's a moron	14:37
zutesmog	we all are!	14:37
psycho_oreos	._.	14:37
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zutesmog	whats your python skills like ?	14:37
lcuk	jonwil, what is your linkedin address?	14:37
jonwil	Not on linkedin	14:38
jonwil	and I dont know the first thing about Python	14:38
zutesmog	ok	14:38
lcuk	for a tech person, have a go, build up a profile	14:38
jacekowski	linkedin is like a dick size content	14:38
jacekowski	tbh	14:38
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psycho_oreos	in other words a site to measure one's dick?	14:38
jacekowski	yeah	14:39
psycho_oreos	lol	14:39
jonwil	Oh wait, I do know one thing about Python that I picked up at one job I worked, I do know that Python on Windows is a pain in the ass :P	14:39
alterego	I've never used it	14:39
lcuk	it is a way to easily and recognisably share info easily even over irc	14:39
alterego	Donmt really plan on doing it either.	14:39
psycho_oreos	interesting way to put it, I've seen a few linkedin profiles but I never made a linkedin profile myself	14:39
alterego	Unless someone seriously suggests it.	14:39
lcuk	:\|	14:40
* lcuk suggests it		14:40
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psycho_oreos	and the boat was missed :)	14:40
lcuk	after many people asked me to do the same when I was in similar situation	14:40
jonwil	Had 3 jobs since getting my degree, the first was a 6 month student internship with Motorola working on the phone software (basically it was 6 months full time paid work that was also a university unit)	14:40
lcuk	it helped just to write down and fill in details :)	14:40
lcuk	anyway, clothes	14:41
lcuk	apt-cache search shirt	14:41
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jonwil	The second job was doing software development for a university research operation doing genetics research	14:41
zutesmog	so jonwil I gather you are looking for work in perth ? What's your main skillset ? I am not a recruiter - been in Perth IT since 80's (was with Sun for 9 years in the 90's) and am exiting the IT industry, but have lots of contacts and people are always asking me for people.	14:42
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jonwil	I am really good with C	14:42
jonwil	and C++	14:42
jonwil	Also Win32 API programming	14:43
zutesmog	ok cool. UI or low level stuff ?	14:43
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jonwil	Never written hardware drivers	14:43
jonwil	all userspace	14:43
zutesmog	ok, what about database, server stuff ?	14:43
zutesmog	or gfx.	14:43
jonwil	DirectX I can do	14:44
jonwil	and probably OpenGL	14:44
jonwil	although I havent done any GL for a while	14:44
jonwil	I also have GOOD skills with x86 assembler	14:44
zutesmog	ok will keep that in mind. My main gfx contacts are 2d/print oriented.	14:44
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zutesmog	asm is a bit too low level for any of my contacts ;-)	14:45
jonwil	I have no art or design skills whatsoever :)	14:45
jonwil	couldn't use Photoshop to save my life :P	14:45
zutesmog	no probs, most people don't ;-) But most people can't code for nuts either !	14:45
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jonwil	Not really a web guy either, dont know that much about Javascript or HTML	14:46
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jacekowski	jonwil: how good are you with asm?	14:47
jonwil	If its 32bit x86 user space, VERY good	14:47
jacekowski	eworks.pl/~mag7/revme1.zip	14:48
zutesmog	so basically c/c++ user space, and a good understanding of gfx. Likes his N900, and how do you rate you server exposure (not web) and linux/unix skills	14:48
jacekowski	try reversing that	14:48
jonwil	I have a Gentoo box sitting next to me	14:48
jonwil	that I set up myself	14:48
jonwil	and I am learning more about Linux	14:48
jonwil	Note that my people skills (when interacting with customers or non-technical people) are non-existant	14:49
zutesmog	yeah that's fine. Most aren't good to start with ;-)	14:50
jonwil	I have no problems using a command line (either windows or linux)	14:50
psycho_oreos	I guess that's a bit of a side effect of being a geek :)	14:50
zutesmog	how about embeded stuff ?	14:50
jonwil	I cant do all the fancy advanced shell script stuff though	14:50
jonwil	Also I can learn new stuff fairly quickly	14:50
jonwil	Never had any real exposure to embedded stuff beyond mobile phone bits	14:51
zutesmog	hey I am definately a geek, but people think I am lovely to talk to, when I don't tell them they're a wanker	14:51
jonwil	and even then, its been higher level and not drivers or hardware	14:51
zutesmog	what where you doing in the genetics stuff, number crunching, pattern matching ?	14:52
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jonwil	Mostly it was manipulating various DNA sequences	14:52
jonwil	Although not that much was done (because the guys doing the actual science never bothered to talk to us about what they needed or whether what we were doing was what they wanted)	14:53
zutesmog	ok, large data sets (did you use HDF5 or any of that sort thing ?)	14:53
jonwil	never heard of HDF5	14:53
zutesmog	sorry to grill you, just trying to get a feel breadth of exposure.	14:53
zutesmog	no probs.	14:54
jonwil	That was all C/C++ with QT	14:55
jonwil	on linux	14:55
zutesmog	ah ok.	14:55
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jonwil	The genetics work was with the Center For Comparative Genomics at Murdoch	14:55
zutesmog	any threaded heavily parallel stuff ?	14:56
zutesmog	ok.	14:56
jonwil	no experience with threading	14:56
jonwil	well minimal	14:56
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jonwil	I know most of the win32 API calls for it	14:56
jonwil	My most recent job (the third) was with the Disability Services Commission	14:56
jonwil	and involved working with something called SQL Server Reporting Services	14:57
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zutesmog	Any exposure to linq ?	14:58
jonwil	nope	14:58
zutesmog	as part of that ?	14:58
jonwil	A bit of VB.NET work	14:58
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jonwil	well there was exposure to LINQ	14:58
jonwil	in that it was used	14:58
jonwil	but I dont know how to use it	14:58
zutesmog	ok	14:58
zutesmog	Never used it myself.	14:59
jonwil	I did some Java programming back in uni (desktop stuff only, not the server side)	14:59
jonwil	Not sure how far Java has changed since I did it though	14:59
Venemo	hey, LINQ is awesome	14:59
zutesmog	a lot more api's . I started with java before it was called java inside sun, back at the end of 1994. Its gotten a whole lot of cruft since then ;-)	15:00
jonwil	Java as a language is great	15:00
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jonwil	Java as a set of APIs isnt too bad	15:00
jonwil	The only problem with Java is the political and legal crap surrouding it	15:00
jonwil	and all the fights between IBM, Oracle, Apache, Google etc etc etc	15:00
zutesmog	far too many. Just have a look at all the database api's JDO, JPA, objectify ........... python is much nice ;-)	15:01
jonwil	btw I am 100% against software patents	15:01
zutesmog	and yep way too much politics	15:01
zutesmog	s/nice/nicer/	15:01
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zutesmog	oh well I will be lurking here. Very much into my N900. Not taking on any more contracts, and just gracefully exiting IT, so if I see anything interesting will let you know.	15:04
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jonwil	I am also extremely good at reverse engineering, debugging and problem solving	15:06
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jonwil	About the only technologies I wont touch is Microsoft Access and Sharepoint	15:07
jonwil	Oh and anything involving a God of some kind is out :P	15:07
psycho_oreos	lol	15:07
jonwil	I havent set foot inside a religious institution since highschool and I am not about to start now	15:09
lcuk	Venemo, did you end up releasing test build of puzzle master for the n8x0?	15:09
lcuk	jonwil, linkedin also allows you to write what you are strong and positive about	15:09
jonwil	oh and one more thing, I dont have car or drivers license	15:10
lcuk	zutesmog, what are of IT were you involved with?	15:10
lcuk	area *	15:10
psycho_oreos	jonwil, still interesting to see that you have set yer eyesight on a VY ute :)	15:10
Venemo	lcuk, it is in Diablo's extras-devel :)	15:11
lcuk	:)	15:11
zutesmog	been consulting/contracting since 2001. Sun, Linux, web backends. Re-acrhictected a 2d renderer (which was built in C++ and delphi)	15:11
jonwil	why would I need a car when Perth has such an excellent bus system	15:11
lcuk	Venemo, that is great stuff.	15:11
Venemo	lcuk, all the recent releases built OK for both Fremantle and Diablo	15:11
lcuk	infact, that is how I thought Qt apps would be	15:11
zutesmog	and spent the last 2 and a bit years doing mainly appengine	15:11
jonwil	Delphi, that brings back memory	15:11
psycho_oreos	er VZ, not VY, just recalled those small lights	15:11
jonwil	memories	15:11
Venemo	lcuk: only drawback is that Diablo release doesn't have any fancyness, since the animation framework came in Qt 4.6	15:11
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lcuk	Venemo, fancyness does not matter on a low spec machine	15:12
lcuk	people prefer something basic and working than not being able to use it at all	15:12
Venemo	lcuk: that's what I thought when I did this :)	15:12
lcuk	:)	15:12
Venemo	for details, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=69454	15:12
lcuk	zutesmog, cool stuff	15:14
lcuk	what did you use your 2d renderer for?	15:14
zutesmog	printing signs. SignIQ is the product. The renderer was originally written in toolbook. I proved (with a prototype) we could take the same templates and build our own renderer. The built the team, and designed the architecture.	15:15
zutesmog	we got some massive performance/stability improvements.	15:15
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lcuk	nice	15:16
zutesmog	and delivered the new rendere on time ;-)	15:16
GeneralAntilles	DocScrutinizer: I'm not running.	15:16
* DocScrutinizer prods GeneralAntilles		15:16
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niala900	hello	15:17
lcuk	zutesmog, so you rendered to printer	15:17
lcuk	or was it to screen/projector too?	15:17
zutesmog	device context, (supplied to the C++ renderer from a delphi front end) so we could render bitmaps, postscript etc..	15:17
lcuk	cool	15:18
zutesmog	I wanted to go with cairo but that was considered a bit too risky (by myself too ;-) especially as it was a windows app ;-)	15:18
lcuk	heh yeah	15:19
zutesmog	text on a curved path is not easy with gdi+ and the rich text formatting is not graet either. And we would scale text to fit rules. The templates can be scripted with business rules in javascript/vbscript	15:19
zutesmog	I got python running as scripting backend as well, but we didn't ship that.	15:20
lcuk	heh I have wrangled windows GDI printing and rtf for years	15:20
jonwil	Why cant Windows have sane printing like Linux and OSX	15:20
lcuk	it kindof did	15:20
lcuk	but it was not the printing, it was the fonts	15:21
lcuk	since rendering to one DC for screen and switching to print actually gave different scale/results	15:21
zutesmog	not a lot of fun is it, you can't stay in gdi+ you have to drop into gdi at times as some stuff isn't implemented. all sorts of insane things.	15:21
* lcuk cursed that often		15:21
zutesmog	yeah, we spent a seriously large amount of time resolving those differences.	15:21
lcuk	i was outraged when I found out .net could not actually give you an accurate pixel size for a string to be rendered	15:22
lcuk	and gives a best estimate	15:22
lcuk	(before I knew about subpixel stuff)	15:22
Venemo	well WPF did fix most of these kind of things	15:23
zutesmog	yep, and try scaling it to fit in a box for each piece of text, that might need to be wrapped or not. And so have to binary search for the best fit.	15:23
lcuk	heh well zutesmog I endeavoured to solve that	15:24
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zutesmog	and of course none of the rich text could deal well with arbitrary rotations.	15:24
niala900	can i emulate midlle mouse button?	15:24
lcuk	lol yeah	15:24
lcuk	zutesmog, http://liqbase.net/font_scale_rendering_area_2.png from years ago	15:24
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lcuk	each box has the text as large as possible	15:24
lcuk	window fully rescalable	15:24
lcuk	was a great test of algorithm	15:24
zutesmog	cool.	15:25
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zutesmog	see you guys around!	15:25
lcuk	cya later, nice chatting with you \o	15:26
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psycho_oreos	cya zutesmog	15:28
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jonwil	Working with the N900 has made me realize why I dont like GTK that much	15:32
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Venemo	jonwil, you can use Qt	15:36
jonwil	yeah I know	15:37
Venemo	so?	15:38
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alterego	What's wrong with Gtk?	15:43
jonwil	I think my main dislike of it is that on Windows its junk	15:43
jonwil	and the apps that use it on Windows dont feel anything like a Windows app should :P	15:44
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alterego	Right, so what has that got to do with Gtk on the N900?	15:45
jonwil	no idea :P	15:46
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alterego	Besides, only losers care about Windows.	15:47
crashanddie_	and people who want to make money	15:48
Lava_Croft	i would have to strongly disagree out of mere principle	15:48
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crashanddie_	feel free	15:49
Lava_Croft	not with you though	15:49
Lava_Croft	:)	15:50
crashanddie_	at least he didn't write "only loosers..."	15:50
crashanddie_	I've actually ran out of electricity sockets in my flat	15:51
crashanddie_	s/ran/run/	15:51
infobot	crashanddie_ meant: I've actually run out of electricity sockets in my flat	15:51
alterego	I manage to make money without using Windows.	15:53
Lava_Croft	thats great	15:53
Lava_Croft	but do you have to be all religious about it	15:53
Lava_Croft	dont you know that when you are trying to sell a product to someone, going about and telling them that they are losers for using their current product instead of yours	15:54
Lava_Croft	is actually a quite, quite dumb business practice	15:54
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alterego	m'hmmmm ...	15:56
DocScrutinizer	Jaffa: it's about time to send out tokens for election!	15:57
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Jaffa	DocScrutinizer: See timsamoff's email on maemo-community.	16:03
DocScrutinizer	which one?	16:03
Jaffa	DocScrutinizer: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2011-March/004681.html	16:03
Jaffa	DocScrutinizer: It's a cock up	16:03
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DocScrutinizer	Jaffa: see my comment on this thing called errrr.... http://maemo.org/community/council	16:04
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DocScrutinizer	>>Please make sure this time the tokens are sent out quite a few days before start of voting period. I.E. >>00:00 UTC, 2011-03-14 (Monday): Voting opens<< means: send those tokens NOW! Otherwise it gets hard again to sort out things if anything fails - which it does usually (spamfilters, whatnot)...<<	16:06
GAN900	The "hit by a bus" scenario hasn't been well provided for, clearly.	16:07
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Jaffa	GAN900: /me mutters	16:09
SpeedEvil	What - we get to vote who to hit with a bus?	16:09
* alterego wonders what it'd take TI to provide OpenCL drivers ..		16:10
GAN900	It'll give potential candidates more time to reconsider their plans. g	16:10
DocScrutinizer	not even the "holiday notice: 12.03. - 25.03." scenario has been taken account of. Last time quite a number of users received their tokens almost too late to use them at all, which basically makes any election moot, as it's based on equal rights for all users	16:10
GAN900	SpeedEvil, we already did. We voted for you. :P	16:10
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SpeedEvil	Fair enough.	16:10
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GAN900	New morning and I still don't see Android's appeal.	16:11
Venemo	alterego: OpenCL?	16:11
lcuk	speaking of androids	16:11
DocScrutinizer	GAN900: forget it, that morning never will come...	16:11
lcuk	I put a motion activated R2D2 in the chocolate cupboard	16:12
lcuk	and waiting	16:12
lcuk	and waited	16:12
GAN900	DocScrutinizer, almost a relief.	16:12
Venemo	GAN900, me neither	16:12
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lcuk	the yelp and worried run upstairs a few minutes later was classic :D	16:12
GAN900	Now I just need to source a cheap webOS device to confirm our mobile landscape is well and truly bleak.	16:12
Jaffa	DocScrutinizer: What "holiday notice"?	16:13
DocScrutinizer	Jaffa: last elections some users were on holiday during election period and had no way to check their email 3 times a day for the token	16:14
Jaffa	DocScrutinizer: And? The election should be postponed until every possible voter confirms their availability?	16:14
DocScrutinizer	they as well weren't able to do sth like a cron job for the vote, as the token wasn't sent even at the time the voting period started	16:15
GAN900	I think the point is tokens need to go out as early as possible.	16:15
DocScrutinizer	exactly	16:15
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GAN900	Either way, not much any of us in this room can do about it.	16:15
DocScrutinizer	voting period is scheduled to start in ONE week	16:15
Jaffa	DocScrutinizer: And it won't be, because there aren't any nominations because of a clusterfuck on many levels which I'm not happy about	16:16
DocScrutinizer	last time it took one week until I received my token, as Nokia mail was configured crappy enough to trigger 30% of spam filters	16:16
Jaffa	DocScrutinizer: I suggest you respond to Tim's email because this isn't a conversation that should be happening here, but over there	16:17
DocScrutinizer	I think the post on http://maemo.org/community/council/maemo_community_council_elections_approaching/ is just good enough. No need for crossposting (except here where I can get immediate response possibly)	16:18
Venemo	okay, so	16:18
Venemo	please tell me, because I couldn't find much about the topic	16:19
Venemo	what has the Community Council done for us so far, in the let's say, last few months?	16:19
DocScrutinizer	http://maemo.org/community/council	16:19
* jonwil wonders if Nokia has EVER open-sourced a previously closed source pakage for Maemo		16:21
jonwil	or whether license-change-requests has been a total waste of time	16:21
Venemo	jonwil, yes, they did it once	16:21
lcuk	Venemo, a great amount of coordination around the CSSU for one.	16:21
jonwil	for which pakcage?	16:21
Venemo	CSSU is coordinated by MohammadAG	16:21
lcuk	Venemo, CSSU is a team effort	16:21
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: nope, not exactly	16:22
Venemo	lcuk, it was started and is managed by MohammadAG	16:22
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: nope, not exactly	16:22
lcuk	MohammadAG would say exactly the same, no one person could handle all aspects of it	16:22
Venemo	anyway. CSSU is a good thing and I see it on the linked page	16:22
Venemo	however there isn't anything else. just "state of Maemo"	16:22
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Jaffa	Venemo: Read those.	16:24
DocScrutinizer	btw vote isn't about what recent council has done, but about what next council should do ;-)	16:24
Venemo	Jaffa: already did when they appeared. there is a lot of empty talk and little stuff actually happening	16:25
Venemo	Jaffa: no offence	16:25
Jaffa	Venemo: Offence taken, actually.	16:25
lcuk	Venemo, so specifically what/how would YOU do?	16:25
lcuk	have you put name down?	16:25
Venemo	I'm not a member of the council, and I don't wish to be.	16:25
GAN900	Hehe	16:25
jonwil	Unfortunatly, Maemo council is like the OpenSolaris council and other similar organizations where there is little interaction with the parent software company	16:25
GAN900	We have this discussion a lot.	16:26
GAN900	jonwil, oh, there's plenty of INTERaction, just no action to go with it. ;)	16:26
alterego	Heh	16:26
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Jaffa	Venemo: Coordinating Qt experimental so it doesn't break Qt apps in Extras; getting Maemo community members sponsored to the MeeGo conference, organising and coordinating with MohammadAG on the CSSU, acting as a point of contact for re-energising the licensing change request queue following the work done by jonwil & DocScrutinizer; clarifying maemo.org's funding status, trying to get balance the competing requirements and clamour for a community "fund", ...	16:27
jonwil	sounds good	16:27
lcuk	Jaffa, ok, that was last week, what about next week?	16:28
* jonwil hopes that the licensing-change-request stuff ends up being more than just some talk by a few nokia people and that it turns into actual code we can use		16:28
Jaffa	jonwil: Not sure how you can quite say that, given that qgil's acted on what we asked him to (although too early yet to know whether it was a positive outcome). It's also a community council, not a Maemo council.	16:28
Venemo	Jaffa: this sounds very good :)	16:28
Jaffa	jonwil: Even efforts which don't turn into code are still valuable, and shouldn't be diminished (because then people won't go out of their way next time)	16:29
Venemo	Jaffa: "Coordinating Qt experimental so it doesn't break Qt apps in Extras" -> exactly what coordination is this? Qt has a binary compability promise so it will never break any existing software. what work does this require on your part?	16:29
jonwil	yeah :)	16:29
Venemo	Jaffa: "getting Maemo community members sponsored to the MeeGo conference" -> this sounds good, no complaints here	16:29
lcuk	Venemo, did you vote in last election?	16:30
Venemo	yes I did lcuk	16:30
lcuk	:D	16:30
Jaffa	Venemo: Look, I'm not going to justify the last six months work I, and the others, have been doing. 1) I'm too busy; 2) I don't like having to do it. Go and read the maemo-developers threads about the Qt updates that were pushed to Extras-devel and broke everything, until the Council pushed for them to be renamed and tidied up.	16:30
Venemo	Jaffa: how could this happen, despite their binary compaibility policy?	16:31
Jaffa	Venemo: I'm sure you'd appreciate a Council if/when Nokia finally do decide to save some cash in 18 months time.	16:31
lcuk	Jaffa, I think Venemo is merely trying to engage and spark discussion :$ albeit a little brash and sandpaperish, I think we should do the interview style thing	16:31
lcuk	Venemo, would you care enough to put your questions into a mail	16:31
lcuk	that members of the council could reply in own time	16:31
Venemo	Jaffa: as I said, I mean no offence. I'm sure I'd appreciate your work if I actually knew what you guys are doing. this is all	16:31
lcuk	in irc, it is very realtime and would make answers rushed	16:31
DocScrutinizer	irc is volatile	16:32
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Venemo	Jaffa: I actually voted for you :)	16:33
GAN900	Venemo, same issue comes up at least every 6 months.	16:34
Venemo	GAN900: which is that same issue?	16:34
GAN900	It gets rather exhausting justifying yourself all the time. ;)	16:34
DocScrutinizer	Jaffa: I hope I can vote for you this time as well :-)	16:34
GAN900	"What has the council done useful?"	16:34
lcuk	GAN900, then find a way to answer the repeated questions	16:34
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lcuk	and a way that future counciles can fill in and add to with ease	16:35
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lcuk	ie, build on work from previous!	16:35
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: good point	16:35
Jaffa	lcuk: Like "Current hot topics" on http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council ?	16:35
GAN900	lcuk, don't have to, I'm not on it! :P	16:35
Jaffa	Anyway, the right people aren't standing (or getting elected); meaning you get one or two people being the public face of the council (because it needs doing) and 1-3 people doing all the work (because it needs doing)	16:36
Jaffa	DocScrutinizer: Dunno yet. Not minded to let you, TBH ;-)	16:36
Jaffa	DocScrutinizer: You run instead ;-0	16:36
Venemo	GAN900: I didn't say "justify". I just had some questions.	16:36
* DocScrutinizer runs and hides		16:36
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lcuk	GAN900, in America, even former presidents still retain some title and stature :)	16:37
Jaffa	Venemo: You may have worded your initial question like that, but then you described the blog posts as "empty words", and denied the efforts around the CSSU	16:37
Venemo	Jaffa: I didn't deny anything, I was asking about stuff.	16:38
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DocScrutinizer	tbh I think the small part of community suffering from my +o and mere contributions aka rant here in irc is just enough - humanity couldn't take more than that	16:38
lcuk	Jaffa, indeed	16:38
Jaffa	Venemo: "14:21 < Venemo> CSSU is coordinated by MohammadAG	16:39
Venemo	Jaffa, that's because thus far, I didn't know the Council was involved.	16:39
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Jaffa	Venemo: So I'll just go and delete the wiki pages, the responses on the thread, the patches, the bug triaging etc that I've been doing	16:39
Venemo	Jaffa: chill down please	16:40
Jaffa	Venemo: You can't separate the Council from the members; because the Council is a way of the community saying "we like what you're doing, and what to recognise that you're doing it with our blessing"	16:40
Venemo	Jaffa: as I said, I'm just being curious. no offence.	16:40
DocScrutinizer	Jaffa: wellknown issue, a lot of people think MohammadAG has invented hostmode	16:40
Venemo	Jaffa: as for my wording, I'm not a native English speaker, so forgive me if my words are sometimes inappropriate.	16:40
Jaffa	Venemo: That then gives the Council stature when dealing with Nokia or the MeeGo CO; and some authority to facilitate within the community	16:40
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: nah, everyone knows you invented it	16:41
* RST38h politely notices that the Council is largely irrelevant		16:41
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, he did! :P	16:41
lcuk	(joking, again that was a team effort)	16:41
lcuk	but he did invent knight rider lights :O	16:41
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* lcuk goes fooding		16:42
* SpeedEvil posted knight rider lights in awk aaaages ago.		16:42
Jaffa	Venemo: I'm not (that) offended. Just trying to emphasise that the Council is a badge given to 5 community members. Currently timsamoff, achipa, myself, andy80 & revdkathy. When I do stuff for the community, am I doing it because I'm on the council or because I want to? I'd probably have worried less about the CSSU wiki pages and TMO thread if I didn't have to.	16:42
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GAN900	RST38h, might be less true than it was before Nokia decided to take a trip to Redmund.	16:44
Venemo	Jaffa: that's appreciated yes :)	16:45
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GAN900	zerojay, ping?	16:52
zerojay	GAN900: pong.	16:52
Venemo	khertan_: ping	16:55
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GAN900	zerojay, how do I make Android slightly less useless?	16:58
GAN900	Is CM7 the answer I'm looking for?	16:58
zerojay	GAN900: Open your eyes.	16:58
zerojay	I'm helping port CM7 to Captivate.	16:58
zerojay	CM's basically straight Android with some added features.	16:59
GAN900	Right now I can't open them because I've put forks in them. :)	16:59
zerojay	What makes Android useless for you?	16:59
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lcuk	GAN900, a 9 iron	17:00
GAN900	Using it is incredibly frustrating	17:01
GAN900	Things don't work as described	17:01
lcuk	RST38h suggested driving a WP7 phone, I think we should expand that (and record) seeing which phones go furthest at the driving range	17:01
zerojay	Like?	17:01
GAN900	Settings don't seem to have much effect in a lot of the third party software.	17:01
GAN900	So, Nook Color	17:01
GAN900	No hardware keys	17:01
GAN900	Supposed to install the SoftKeys service	17:02
psycho_oreos	some android phones does come with hardware keys	17:02
zerojay	Most Android phones have hardware keys.	17:02
psycho_oreos	motorola milestone for instance :p	17:02
zerojay	Can't think of any that don't off the top of my head.	17:02
GAN900	Want to set it up so a single press on the home hardkey brings up the SoftKey bar	17:02
GAN900	There's a setting for that, set it, but it has no effect.	17:02
zerojay	Well, there's something you have to understand here.	17:03
zerojay	That's not an "Android" problem.	17:03
GAN900	It's like Windows?	17:03
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GAN900	Everything you have to install because the core is useless is more useless? :)	17:03
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zerojay	You're using a hacked up alpha release on something that doesn't support it with software that isn't a part of core Android, so...	17:03
psycho_oreos	sounds similar to maemo 5's case :p	17:03
zerojay	In other words, don't blame Android for some random app not working properly on unsupported hardware with an alpha version of the OS. :)	17:04
GAN900	OK, how about the fact that setting the desktop image sets it at about 1/4 resolution.	17:04
zerojay	See above.	17:04
GAN900	zerojay, example #1	17:04
GAN900	And what part of the OS is alpha.	17:05
zerojay	CM7 is alpha.	17:05
zerojay	As a whole.	17:05
zerojay	Especially on that device.	17:05
GAN900	Not using CM7	17:05
GAN900	On the semi-stock 2.1	17:05
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GAN900	Wondering if CM7 is going to be less awful.	17:06
zerojay	CM7 is definitely better.	17:06
zerojay	It's based on Gingerbread, 2.3.	17:06
zerojay	Desktop image also assumes you'll be using multiple screens/workspaces.	17:06
zerojay	So it's probably spread out over them.	17:06
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zerojay	You can disable that... but I'm not sure if that's what you are refering to or not.	17:07
GAN900	Is there any way to get smooth browser scrolling. . . .	17:07
zerojay	You're using a Nook.	17:08
GAN900	OMAP3621 with 512MB	17:08
zerojay	You're using a Nook.	17:08
GAN900	Don't tell me that can't run WebKit as well as Maemo 5 runs Gecko.	17:09
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zerojay	It should be smooth already.	17:09
GAN900	It's not.	17:09
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GAN900	Scrolling is at about 6fps. . . .	17:09
* GAN900 will laugh when MeeGo runs fine.		17:10
zerojay	Gingerbread will probably perform better but again, I don't have a hacked nook, so I can't say what can and can't be possible on that thing.	17:10
zerojay	FPS in general on Android is capped at 30fps.	17:11
zerojay	On average.. browser scrolling looks about half that.	17:11
zerojay	Least on my phone.	17:11
zerojay	It's not butter smooth, but it's far from choppy.	17:11
lcuk	capped by specific code, or capped because it will not run faster?	17:11
zerojay	It's capped in code. You can remove the cap easily as well.	17:12
lcuk	because on my n810 scrolling was at 33fps	17:12
* jaska__ kicks nickserv		17:12
zerojay	The only reason the cap is there at all is to reduce CPU use, really.	17:12
GAN900	Looks like pulling a brick up a 2x4 covered in sandpaper.	17:12
zerojay	Average user wants battery life much more than 60fps.	17:12
zerojay	So.. makes sense.	17:12
lcuk	zerojay, specifically where is the cap ?	17:13
zerojay	And I think if you want it higher, it's a simple change for power users.	17:13
lcuk	ie is there code for it or documentaiton	17:13
zerojay	lcuk: I'm not sure. I haven't looked into it myself, just heard devs talk about it. I'll get back to you on it if you'd like.	17:13
lcuk	or how to unlock it	17:13
lcuk	it just sounds curious	17:13
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lcuk	because with so many devices being underpowered seems more reasonable reason	17:14
zerojay	Seems like some devices have removed the cap already by default, like the EVO 4G.	17:14
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zerojay	As far as I remember, it's just editing a text file and rebooting.	17:14
lcuk	isn't that the same as all development?	17:15
lcuk	just the size and number of text files varies	17:15
Lava_Croft	:D	17:15
zerojay	It looks like it's a little more involved. Basically a custom kernel.	17:16
GAN900	How do I select between eMMC and SD on boot?	17:16
lcuk	GAN900, which device and what are you booting?	17:18
zerojay	GAN900: This seems to imply that there's nothing to do but have a proper file system on the card, but I don't know offhand.. never need to do it: http://www.androidpolice.com/2011/03/04/psa-please-dont-pay-80-for-a-nook-color-sd-card-that-runs-honeycomb/	17:20
zerojay	Wish I could have bought a Nook Color and hacked it... they don't sell them in Canada at all.	17:21
lcuk	hang on, I just noticed this is maemo channel	17:22
* lcuk mistook it for something else		17:22
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zerojay	It's been something else for almost a year already.	17:26
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steve___	zerojay: you are canuckistani?	17:28
zerojay	Yep.	17:28
GAN900	Putting a bootable microSD in will boot it, but I'd rather be able to leave it in and choose in software.	17:29
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zerojay	I don't know if anyone's done something like that.	17:29
GAN900	Damn Canadians.	17:29
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GAN900	You send all of your crazy people down to spy on us as "tourists", don't you?	17:29
GAN900	Yet another area where Maemo's superior. g	17:30
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zerojay	Doesn't matter when it's dead. :)	17:30
steve___	yeah... all our agents are in Florida and are over the age of 60.	17:30
zerojay	lol	17:31
zerojay	No kidding.	17:31
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steve___	Not optimum but unassuming ;)	17:31
zerojay	Old and french.	17:31
steve___	The CIA won't be able to decipher our bastardize "secret" language.	17:32
steve___	ou est salle de bain!?	17:34
zerojay	Poutine.	17:34
steve___	Moment later secret agent Gertrude doesn't make it and one hears "veit, ou est le napkin?!"	17:35
GAN900	Or French Canadians	17:35
GAN900	zerojay, less dead than it used to be	17:36
zerojay	How so?	17:36
GAN900	and at least it's usable day-to-day (unlike Android)	17:36
GAN900	Well, Nokia's not really coming out with much in the near future	17:36
GAN900	and there's aren't any reasonable alternatives	17:37
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GAN900	So people will be holding on to their N900s for longer	17:37
GAN900	and the N900 Developer Edition is a thing now.	17:37
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Lava_Croft	too bad about the N9 tho	17:38
Lava_Croft	it seems that one is kind of a goner	17:38
zerojay	It's sad seeing what's become of it all.	17:38
GAN900	Elop	17:38
Lava_Croft	people blame elop	17:38
Lava_Croft	but elop didnt make nokia fail	17:39
GAN900	Another damn useless thing coming out of Canada.	17:39
GAN900	No	17:39
Lava_Croft	its not elops fault that nokia still is not competing with iphones and what not	17:39
GAN900	The board that put him there did.	17:39
GAN900	Shortsighted Finnish arrogance.	17:39
Lava_Croft	the same board that also made nokia fail	17:39
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Lava_Croft	tihs windows stuff is just shortterm	17:40
zerojay	I don't think elop was the problem.	17:40
zerojay	Nokia's been in big trouble for quite some time.	17:40
Lava_Croft	elop wasnt/isnt at all	17:40
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GAN900	Just the result and the final nail in the coffin.	17:40
Lava_Croft	but thats all speculation from doomsayers	17:41
zerojay	The added emphasis on Maemo being the company's savior when it was just a research project.. come on.	17:41
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GAN900	Maemo could've beaten the iPhone to market	17:41
GAN900	If Nokia had positioned it to.	17:41
Lava_Croft	to market, maybe, but not much more	17:41
zerojay	It would have been eaten alive.	17:41
GAN900	It'd be a different landscape if they had actually run with it.	17:42
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Lava_Croft	cant compare maemo to ios at all	17:42
Lava_Croft	they serve different markets	17:42
GAN900	Instead we're faced with picking between an evil that pretends to be good, an evil that doesn't and some thing from HP.	17:42
zerojay	No.	17:42
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zerojay	It wasn't ever meant to be something mainstream.	17:43
GAN900	Lava_Croft, could've been competition money-wise if they had actually pushed it as something other than an understaffed, underfunded research project.	17:43
jakemaheu	Good morning, infobot.	17:43
Lava_Croft	but maemo would never have been a factor	17:43
Lava_Croft	its for mobile computers, not smartphones	17:43
GAN900	Maemo 5 is damn close to something that'd make real money.	17:43
Lava_Croft	nokia has nothing for smartphones, besides this windows7 thing now	17:43
GAN900	Exactly.	17:43
GAN900	smartphones aren't the future.	17:44
zerojay	They pushed our little project out into the spotlight because they had nothing else and they needed to look like they had SOMETHING. And I remember saying that as soon as they had something else, they would leave Maemo in the dust... and they did exactly that.	17:44
GAN900	Mobile computers are.	17:44
Lava_Croft	they might not be, but currently they do make you money	17:44
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Lava_Croft	and i think even elop said the mobile computer stuff is still the future	17:44
Lava_Croft	not in those words, but still	17:44
Lava_Croft	but nokia isnt exactly in a position to wait some more years	17:44
GAN900	Not if you're running with WP7 or Android.	17:44
Lava_Croft	why not	17:45
Lava_Croft	development on mobile computers will not die	17:45
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GAN900	I'm not OK with an advertising company providing my mobile device platform.	17:45
zerojay	Smartphones have already devoured the mobile computer.	17:45
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GAN900	Only because the big players like the status quo.	17:46
zerojay	Everything the average user wants to do with a mobile device, smartphones do now pretty much.	17:46
Lava_Croft	and they do it very well too	17:46
GAN900	Mobile computers don't funnel as much money into people's pockets.	17:46
Lava_Croft	mobile computers are not for the mainstream	17:46
zerojay	There's little difference anymore between "mobile computers" and "smartphones" anyways.	17:46
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Lava_Croft	zerojay: well, the OS kind of is	17:46
zerojay	Linux on both sides.	17:47
zerojay	Command lines on both sides.	17:47
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Lava_Croft	and still meamo5 is like a desktop OS and android like a smartphone OS	17:47
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zerojay	but that difference is mainly a visual one at this point.	17:48
GAN900	Lava_Croft, mobile computers are going to largely subvert laptops.	17:48
Lava_Croft	sure	17:48
GAN900	zerojay, and usability. :)	17:48
Lava_Croft	that is very subjective	17:48
zerojay	You certainly can't claim that Maemo is more useable for the average person than iOS or Android.	17:49
zerojay	For guys like us, perhaps.	17:49
Lava_Croft	iOS is a really slick experience, for my wife	17:49
Lava_Croft	to me, its just really annoying	17:49
Lava_Croft	my wife laughs at the n900 and its clunky interface	17:49
GAN900	Dunno, every average person I've put Maemo in the hands of enjoys using it.	17:50
thomasjfox	Lava_Croft: get a divorce? :o)	17:50
Lava_Croft	thomasjfox: why?	17:50
Lava_Croft	:D	17:50
Lava_Croft	that way I'd lose the iPhone	17:50
thomasjfox	lol	17:50
Lava_Croft	and i couldnt play any games on it! :D	17:50
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lcuk	Lava_Croft, how old are you out of interest?	17:53
* khertan_ hate visual studio ... properties of project is so easy to found that i finally edit the project with an xml editor ... grrr 1h30 lost		17:53
Lava_Croft	lcuk: heh?	17:53
zerojay	Maemo could have really gotten somewhere, but the one thing that drives a mobile OS or phone these days is the apps. Maemo just didn't have them.	17:53
jakemaheu	Is it bad to use your tablet at a funeral?	17:53
zerojay	Depends.	17:53
zerojay	Is it yours?	17:53
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lcuk	jakemaheu, it depends - probably a bit offputting using it to fly helicopter around etc	17:54
jakemaheu	lol	17:54
khertan_	GAN900, my wife didn't like the ui and like his iOS one, while i found the iOS one horrible and always be lost with it	17:54
zerojay	I can handle iOS and not gag, but I'm just not a fan of the style nor of Apple.	17:54
jakemaheu	You still burn your hands when you cook bacon, lcuk? :P	17:54
lcuk	zerojay, it is all about the apps of course	17:54
khertan_	zerojay, depends on use case ... Android didn't well support python, iphone didn't like interpreted language like python ... so maemo have for me the best apps :)	17:55
lcuk	but would be even better for the required apps to be a part of the OS for a seamless experience	17:55
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zerojay	Yeah, I agree.	17:56
lcuk	jakemaheu, i never burn my hands when cooking bacon	17:56
alterego	I think maemo/meego has a higher ability for synergy between apps and os.	17:56
jakemaheu	suuuure	17:56
lcuk	i just put a rasher on my n900 keyboard, close it and play some movies and games for a bit	17:56
alterego	iPhone apps are basically self contained lolly pops	17:56
lcuk	it even "bings" when its cooked	17:56
lcuk	Lava_Croft, :O you PMed the reply	17:56
alterego	Same goes for Android apps, maemo/meego apps are real applications in the same sense that a desktop app is a fully blown application.	17:57
zerojay	alterego: What scares me is seeing that mentality crossing over to desktops.	17:57
jakemaheu	lcuk, Any new stuff coming to liqbase?	17:57
alterego	We can also introspect much deeper.	17:57
lcuk	alterego, that has its own problem with desktop app startup times	17:57
lcuk	;)	17:57
alterego	And integrate and provide our own interfaces to our own services for everyone else.	17:57
khertan_	zerojay, it s already in progress look at the content of the mac storre	17:57
alterego	lcuk: well sure, there are obviously short comings.	17:58
zerojay	khertan_: That's what I'm talking about.	17:58
lcuk	jakemaheu, I tweak as I can, been concentrating on proper OS for a bit, here is recent screenshot to give idea of what I have been upto: http://liqbase.net/liq.meego.r&d.n900.and.ideapad.fullspeed.20110220_011.jpg	17:58
khertan_	YOUHOU !!!! Python for 4D pass the test !	17:58
khertan_	Yihha !	17:58
trx	if my app depends on qt libs to compile, do i need to include qt libs in Build-Depends in deb control file for the autobuilder or are they allready there?	17:58
khertan_	i can now code in python inside 4D	17:58
khertan_	:)	17:58
alterego	trx: yes	17:58
GAN900	zerojay, because it didn't have support from the manufacturer	17:58
lcuk	jakemaheu, that photo shows what I thought MeeGo would have - true balance and scalability from handset up	17:59
alterego	trx: you should put all the -dev packages you need to compile in that field.	17:59
GAN900	That's a function of shipping a usable devkit and shipping more than a million or two devices.	17:59
GAN900	The difference between Nokia supporting and not supporting the platform.	17:59
trx	alterego i only need .so's	17:59
lcuk	jakemaheu, all the UI in liqbase is now using my handwriting :) truly personal apps	17:59
trx	alterego do i still need to include them?	18:00
jaska	"encrypted" text	18:00
alterego	trx: you need headers to compile your application, those are in -dev packages, debian packaging will work out the libs you need itself.	18:00
trx	alterego i dont use C headers, i have my own headers	18:00
jakemaheu	lcuk, that's epic :D	18:01
lcuk	jakemaheu, it is a start.	18:01
alterego	trx: So you're not using Qt?	18:01
trx	alterego i am using Qt but i have pascal bindings	18:01
trx	so i only need the .so's to be there	18:02
alterego	trx: well, your pascal bindings should depend on Qt then ..	18:02
alterego	And you should depend on your bindings.	18:02
trx	ok, thank you alterego	18:03
alterego	np	18:03
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DocScrutinizer51	GAN900: (smartphone !=future, mobile computers == future) well, tell that Nokia and meego team. Maemo was targeted at "desktop look and feel, and performance, on your handset" </quote Nokia>. Meego handset UX clearly isn't. And for the other poster claiming there's little diff tween smartphones & laptops: that's true for UX when done right, it's not exactly correct for low level system requirements, as a tablet or PC still isn't define	18:03
DocScrutinizer51	d as always on, running several days from one battery, with resume latency <<0.5s	18:03
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SwedeMike	trend doesn't seem to prioritize multi-day battery life.	18:04
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ruskie	sadly yeah	18:04
SwedeMike	well, I guess consumers get what they ask for, people are more interested in performance than multi-day battery life	18:05
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DocScrutinizer51	haha	18:06
lcuk	if you build using principles of optimisation and minimalism, then those users with heavy patterns get what they want and the people who want long idle life get that too	18:06
ruskie	yup	18:06
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lcuk	SwedeMike, most people make noise about performance	18:07
lcuk	"I am running 14 browsers with 8 flash instances in each and it is juddering"	18:07
ruskie	gee	18:08
ruskie	how about actually closing some of that	18:08
lcuk	ie enough computing power to bring down a whole cluster	18:08
* ruskie wants an auto-cluehammer device		18:08
GAN900	Well, no surprise when you're dealing with Java.	18:08
DocScrutinizer51	lcuk: that's not entirely correct. To truely optimize you need better understanding of a platform hw than that applied in meego universal kernel	18:08
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lcuk	DocScrutinizer51, each platform has its own kernel differentiation	18:09
SwedeMike	well, I there is probably a lot more to do for power efficiency both in os and hw, but the fact that the screen needs a lot of juice is probably hard to fix, so we're going to need better batteries to handle multi-hour usage regardless of what's done in other areas.	18:09
lcuk	the TSG standards were changed last year to specifically allow this	18:09
DocScrutinizer51	oooh wow	18:09
lcuk	so there is an N900 adaption kernel and one for lardman\|home's device etc	18:09
khertan_	SwedeMike, the most problem is that user want bling bling graphical interface that drain battery with heavy cpu use	18:09
lcuk	ie, you dismiss things too easily	18:09
khertan_	s/m	18:09
khertan_	s/most/main	18:09
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SwedeMike	khertan_: well, yes, but it seems one needs a lot of cpu power to just render web pages... and looking at how much power the screen draws when lit up and when the radio is used, I don't see huge improvements anytime close, even though there are of course a lot that has been done in at least other OSes	18:11
DocScrutinizer51	SwedeMike: this shows the problem pretty much. Your basic assumptions are flawed. On standby a phone isn't always powering the screen, and that's the situation that needs most thoughts and optimizations and gets the lest love though	18:11
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lcuk	DocScrutinizer51, psst again, it is being dealt with	18:12
GAN900	Isn't MeeGo a dictatorship now that valhalla's left?	18:12
SwedeMike	DocScrutinizer51: of course, if one doesn't use the phone then the screen is off, but if one wants IM always-on etc, the radio needs to be on and that uses a lot of power because as soon as the phone is out of idle-mode radiowise, a lot of juice is used.	18:13
lcuk	Valhalla has not left, he just changed root	18:13
SwedeMike	DocScrutinizer51: I was talking about actually using the phone a few hours per day as well as keeping good standby	18:13
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zerojay	SwedeMike: A lot of IM programs now use push notification, so... far less need to be using the radio.	18:14
lcuk	DocScrutinizer51, I pinged you on #meego relating to your point about kernel optimisations	18:14
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DocScrutinizer51	SwedeMike: still I get 2 days online with IRC, as long as I don't "use" the phone. And that's not going to happen on meego	18:14
SwedeMike	zerojay: well, most of them still need to wake up once every few minutes to keepalive the TCP connections, which brings the radio out of idle and it takes 30 seconds to go back.	18:14
GAN900	Ugh, Canadian tourists are eating my soul.	18:14
lcuk	GAN900, what colour book are they after ?	18:15
SwedeMike	DocScrutinizer51: well, I don't even get 16 hours out of my N900 if I'm connected to a 3G networks with 3 IM programs running.... I probably don't even get 8 hours.	18:15
GAN900	lcuk, their accents are too thick, I can't tell! g	18:15
SwedeMike	DocScrutinizer51: with maemo that is...	18:15
lcuk	haha	18:15
zerojay	SwedeMike: That's not how it works.	18:15
DocScrutinizer51	sure, 3G is a hog, 2G is much better	18:16
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SwedeMike	zerojay: really? so how does it handle CGNs/NATs that wipe sessions from it's NAT table after some inactivity?	18:16
lcuk	SwedeMike, as stated, if you are using data only for IM< perhaps try the 2g lock thing	18:17
ShadowJK_	my operator doesn't do NAT :)	18:17
SwedeMike	lcuk: that's a workaround, not a solution.	18:17
lcuk	SwedeMike, well you can try it at least	18:17
zerojay	SwedeMike: Read up about push.	18:17
DocScrutinizer51	there's no solution inside 3G specs	18:17
SwedeMike	ShadowJK_: mine doesn't either, but we're going to have to do it in the near future (I work for a 2G/3G/4G/ADSL/fixed line operator)	18:17
ShadowJK_	my NATted connection has about 4 day timeout :)	18:18
SwedeMike	zerojay: you're talking about operator run push now?	18:18
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ShadowJK_	Screen at low brightness is about 60-100mA I guess, and hsdpa seems to run at around 600mA	18:19
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SwedeMike	ShadowJK_: all the more important that all applications sync up their chatter so they all bring the phone out of idle at the same time so HS resource can be left down most of the time.	18:20
DocScrutinizer51	see wiki	18:20
ShadowJK_	yeah, see libiphb	18:21
ShadowJK_	not that many things use it :(	18:21
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SwedeMike	would also be nice if the phone could signal to the network that it wants to go to idle, right now as far as I have been told, it's the network that has a defined timeout for traffic before telling the phone to go to idle.	18:21
DocScrutinizer51	SpeedEvil and some of me there are decent figures on virtually everything regarding power consumption	18:21
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ShadowJK_	SwedeMike, yep, network decides it all	18:22
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lcuk	ShadowJK_, wouldn't this clustering be better at the low level interface end	18:22
lcuk	so that it was not down to apps themselves	18:23
ShadowJK_	The operator here with friendliest policy for always-on on 3g is also the slowest. There's probably a tradeoff thing going on	18:23
SwedeMike	so ideal would be for the phone to signal that it wants to go out of idle, get HS, do the chatter needed in a few seconds to update whatever presence etc, and then go back to idle. Would save both network resources and phone battery.	18:23
ShadowJK_	lcuk, well generally you want webpage to start downloading immediately and not 2 minutes from now :P	18:24
zerojay	Android lets you set	18:24
zerojay	er.	18:24
ShadowJK_	I suspect that with hsdpa if a phone wants to go into idle or leave idle it involves a dozen other phones too	18:25
zerojay	Hit Return there when I meant to erase... damn angles.	18:25
lcuk	ShadowJK_, difference between interactive activation (ie when screen on and user infront of it) and when the device is idle	18:25
ShadowJK_	I made the machine with my irc proxy block traffic to my phone for 2 minutes at a time, and unblock until tcp retransmissions have sent it all :)	18:26
SwedeMike	ShadowJK_: well, if the applications can say "we're all done now for a while, thanks" then at least the phone should be able to hint the network that it doesn't forsee any more traffic in the near future and can go to idle. I guess 3GPP didn't want this for some reason.	18:26
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ShadowJK_	Well, after traffic has stopped moving, it seems to return to idle at the next opportunity?	18:27
zerojay	Android has a state called "auto-sync" that apps that want to pull down data from time to time use. Some apps allow you to turn off the radio or turn it down to 2G until X minutes, then jump to 3G/whatever, turn on auto-sync for x minutes then turn radio back off again.	18:28
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SwedeMike	ShadowJK_: in our network, that means 30 seconds until it goes to idle. It releases the HS resource fairly quickly though, think it's after just a few seconds.	18:28
DocScrutinizer51	ShadowJK_: lcuk: we discussed that issue on OM community, my suggestion been to use different network devices with their own specific properties (like timeout despite inbound traffic, buffer/dont, et all) can be implemented mostly on netfilter level	18:29
ShadowJK_	5 seconds for hsdpa->wcdma with my operator	18:29
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SwedeMike	zerojay: are you sure about the jumping between 2G and 3G? That sounds like a lot of location updates that'd use quite a lot of battery in itself, also hinder incoming calls for a few seconds every time it happens.	18:30
zerojay	Yes, I'm sure.	18:30
SpeedEvil	Ah - database sanitisation.	18:30
SpeedEvil	http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=270129164	18:30
ShadowJK_	forcing dual to 2g takes about a second for me on n900?	18:30
zerojay	You can decide if you want to simply drop to 2g or drop completely.	18:31
SpeedEvil	(only for those with a tesco login)	18:31
zerojay	http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=807989	18:31
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SwedeMike	zerojay: that URL is for a beta application and doesn't seem to be included as standard in android?	18:33
zerojay	Correct.	18:33
ShadowJK_	Alot of third party apps don't use the maemo APIs for connectivity at all, so Maemo has no idea of when those apps use or dont use internet :/	18:33
zerojay	I never claimed the automatic switching was default in Android.	18:33
ruskie	sadly yeah	18:34
DocScrutinizer51	you could even implement a status menu slider for connection-speed vs power saving, similar to brightness slider	18:34
ruskie	though why should the app actually do it...	18:34
ruskie	just add a kernel listener for it	18:34
ShadowJK_	eh?	18:34
DocScrutinizer51	netfilter!	18:34
ruskie	there's even a kernel patch that can rereoute all connections through a socks proxy	18:34
zerojay	There's an app called Droidwall that lets you change the ipfilter options on an app-by-app basis.	18:36
zerojay	Very simple.	18:36
zerojay	App name, on/off 3g, on/off Wifi	18:36
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zerojay	No reason something like that couldn't work on Maemo.	18:36
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ShadowJK_	indeed :P	18:37
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DocScrutinizer51	you need a per-app configuration of dynamic rules aka policies for handling traffic. Those policies also are aware of all the other connection properties like port numbers etc, same as (or even in) netfilter	18:37
ShadowJK_	you can match by pid atleast, maybe process name too	18:37
DocScrutinizer51	heh zerojay bet me on that	18:38
zerojay	Bet you on what?	18:38
DocScrutinizer51	beat*	18:38
DocScrutinizer51	just I think the policies should be much more versatile	18:39
zerojay	I think the way it works on Android is it blocks based on the Intent being used at the time.	18:39
zerojay	Haven't looked into it.	18:40
ShadowJK_	you could block everything that hasn't specifically asked for access through maemo connectivity APIs and don't coordinate through iphb (or the higher level things that use libiphb), but it'd be tremendously unpopular move ;p	18:42
DocScrutinizer51	there need to be per-app threholds and timeouts for 2G<->3G switching, sync to other app groups (aka network /dev-ices) for bundling transmissions	18:42
DocScrutinizer51	etc pp	18:42
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ShadowJK_	I just use 2g all the time, except when I want to download stuff in gpodder ;p	18:43
ShadowJK_	234kbit/s is faster than any modern browser renders on less than 4Ghz anyway ;D	18:43
DocScrutinizer51	so your policy set should handle that for you	18:43
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SwedeMike	ShadowJK_: you actually get 234kbit/s regularily on 2G? I only get that in our lab :P	18:44
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SwedeMike	even though EDGE is a huge step up from non-edge :P	18:44
ShadowJK_	well 24500 bytes/sec :P	18:44
ShadowJK_	Yes, regulary	18:44
DocScrutinizer51	ShadowJK_: quite simple gpodder should use another network device than the rest	18:45
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DocScrutinizer51	the gpoder network device shall enable 3G while the other device will try to keep things on 2G	18:46
ShadowJK_	Or I could monitor traffic on gprs0 and send the signal on dbus to switch to Dual mode if it sits peaked at 24500 for a while ;p	18:47
DocScrutinizer51	that's what network devices are meant for	18:47
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DocScrutinizer51	ShadowJK_: that's one of the extended policies to implement in netfilters	18:48
ShadowJK_	on my old Nokia E75 I could hold 3 gprs connections simultaneously, all with its own public IP :D	18:48
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DocScrutinizer51	bbl	18:49
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Venemo	MohammadAG: ping	19:06
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RST38h	GNOME To Lose Minimize, Maximize Buttons	19:22
* RST38h politely asks the Tentacled One to lunch on some people		19:23
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lcuk	RST38h, it might be ok, but for as long as this bug exists it will frustrate people	19:25
lcuk	http://liqbase.net/metacity_bug_436537/ubuntu_gnome_metacity_closebutton_fail.htm	19:25
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lcuk	(if they need to double click title bar to make it work)	19:25
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GAN900	I haven't used a maximize button in about 5 years.	19:26
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GAN900	Minimize maybe a bit less than that.	19:27
RST38h	I use minimize buttons though	19:27
GAN900	Maximize is a Windows button	19:27
GAN900	Doesn't Microsoft have a shortcut for that?	19:27
Sc0rpius	he's talking about GNOME	19:27
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GAN900	Sc0rpius, yes, I understand, but RST38h uses Windows.	19:28
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lcuk	GAN900, ? he upgraded? last I heard RST38h was still on DOS 5.0	19:28
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Sc0rpius	did you see that video upgrading from DOS5.0 to every Windows released but Me?	19:30
lcuk	Sc0rpius, yeah	19:30
lcuk	it was cool	19:30
Sc0rpius	yeah pretty cool :)	19:30
Sc0rpius	for those who didn't watch it: http://www.engadget.com/2011/03/03/charting-the-upgrade-path-from-dos-5-0-to-windows-7-video/	19:31
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* RST38h moos evilly at javispedro		19:48
javispedro	moo RST38h	19:48
user_	anyone know of a 7" ARM tablet with a resistve screen that has a bit more resources than a smartq?	19:49
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user_	meego on archos it now that's a possibility	19:53
user_	not 7" but better than n900 for work	19:54
ds3	build your own	19:55
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RST38h	Hmmm, Android has got viruses	19:56
RST38h	What happened to the supposedly "safe" Java environment?	19:57
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user_	RST38h: lol	20:02
user_	ds3: thanks for the advice?	20:03
user_	lol	20:03
DocScrutinizer	RST38h: do you think I CBA to repeat my rant in #meego for the 794th time? No way dude, it's been lcuk who thought he can lure me in by pointing me to a bug where they work on power management for >6 months now. I'm still not interested in meego though, as for me a RE'd and FOSS'ed maemo is the better OS than meego every day. And my rant about N950 was just to show the aimless effort in meego, regarding what I expect from a handheld OS &	20:03
DocScrutinizer	hw	20:03
RST38h	Doc: Man, you have worked on OpenMoko, nobody can doubt your FOSS priorities after that :)	20:04
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DocScrutinizer	tbh I prefer a maemo with closed bits over a meego with missing bits and rotten foundation and targeted to mimic iPhone rather than trying to become a viable NIT	20:06
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GAN900	It's alway good when the former police chief goes to the funeral of the guy who killed two cops, but not the cops'.	20:07
DocScrutinizer	I'd rather port maemo4/diablo to N900 than try to live with meego handset UX, to state an exaggerated one	20:08
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DocScrutinizer	some nerds invented a UX and claim that's what everybody has to like on his next NIT. I beg to differ	20:10
GAN900	lol	20:11
GAN900	I guess we'll see what it actually looks like when it's actually usable.	20:11
DocScrutinizer	on my metrics that's never then	20:11
GAN900	we'll see	20:12
* GAN900 ever the optimist		20:12
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: "targeted to mimic iPhone"	20:12
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: don't confuse the UX with the OS	20:12
GAN900	Guy just called asking for a book: "Smallest Programming Language in the World"	20:13
DocScrutinizer	I simply don't get the rationale in adopting a new buggy OS with a mickey mouse UX targeted to what hw exactly? A N950 that comes with a crappy c-ts? NAH!	20:13
GAN900	I wanted to ask: "What is Brainfuck?"	20:13
javispedro	RST38h: Android. Sigh.	20:13
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: what's c-ts?	20:13
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, I was not trying to lure you in, but merely pointing out where you observed no attention had been paid that there infact was and is	20:13
DocScrutinizer	capacitive touchscren	20:13
* lcuk will shush though		20:13
GAN900	javispedro, iknorite?	20:14
javispedro	Today our beloved *oid Android emulator guy violated the GPL again. everyone applauded.	20:14
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: ah.	20:14
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javispedro	android open? my ass.	20:14
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, MeeGo UX that everyone saw at first was console only	20:14
lcuk	that is not mickey mouse :P	20:14
GAN900	Android is a pernicious disease.	20:14
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: well, that's what the consumers prefer. me or you maybe not, but we're not the target audience with whom they can make money	20:15
DocScrutinizer	all the details about taskswitcher to sketches of desktop are mickey mouse though	20:15
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: I agree with your thoughts on MeeGo handset UX	20:15
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: this is why people are porting hildon-desktop to MeeGo	20:15
DocScrutinizer	useless effort. For N950? For N900 even??	20:16
* lcuk wonders what the DocScrutinizer UX would look and feel like.		20:16
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: smoku runs it on his ideapad currently :)	20:16
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lcuk	DocScrutinizer, you are very focused on MeeGo == one or two devices	20:17
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: I don't know anything about an "N950" either, but most likely I'm not going to be one of its buyers.	20:17
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: not really. You just say that to make me contribute to a stillborn project	20:17
lcuk	MeeGo is buildable on a wide range of things	20:17
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, not at all	20:17
lcuk	i hear you moaning in lots of places but less of what you would actually like!	20:17
lcuk	yes, you want a tablet/phone thingy, but what should it look like	20:18
lcuk	what should it act like	20:18
lcuk	etc	20:18
DocScrutinizer	like diablo, with a few hildon/fremantle aigments. It's just fine for me	20:18
DocScrutinizer	augments*	20:18
lcuk	have you tried building hildon diablo on fremantle device?	20:19
lcuk	ie Maemo 4 us ontop of Maemo5	20:19
DocScrutinizer	the fremantle taskswitcher is actually bearable with MHD and tab-emu	20:19
lcuk	it is all OSS	20:19
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: what are MHD and tab-emu?	20:20
DocScrutinizer	the meego taskswitcher... oh my last I heard it's wose than windows	20:20
DocScrutinizer	worse*	20:20
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Venemo	DocScrutinizer, again, the UX is not equal to the OS.	20:20
DocScrutinizer	http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools	20:20
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: I'm well aware of that. The OS is rotten on some of the foundatin blocks though, as it's been architected by x86 centric laptop dudes, not embedded folks	20:21
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: so, if you are an embedded folk, why don't you step up and help them?	20:22
lcuk	I remember when CmdrTaco slated the ipod	20:22
lcuk	"No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame."	20:22
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: because that'	20:22
DocScrutinizer	s	20:22
DocScrutinizer	not appreciated and often received as insult	20:22
Venemo	DocScrutinizer, http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools -> Ctrl+F -> no results for MHD nor tab-emu	20:22
DocScrutinizer	and honestly I don't see meego in my future live, no matter if I contribute or not	20:23
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Venemo	DocScrutinizer: if someone can help MeeGo get it right, it's you	20:23
DocScrutinizer	Venemo:	20:24
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DocScrutinizer	## new: with ctrl-BS for nice taskswitching, see	20:24
DocScrutinizer	## http://my.arava.co.il/~matan/repo/Modified_Hildon_Desktop.html	20:24
DocScrutinizer	## and http://share.ovi.com/media/joerg900.screenshots/joerg900.10092 video	20:24
Venemo	oh, that!	20:24
Venemo	yeah, I find that nice too :)	20:24
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DocScrutinizer	life* ^^^	20:24
Venemo	sorry, I didn't know you meant this :)	20:25
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Venemo	so DocScrutinizer, what would be your preferred mobile OS?	20:25
* javispedro fires up disas, let's see which versions did this guy use		20:26
pupnik_	mornin	20:26
* lcuk boots Workbench 1.3		20:26
javispedro	morning pupnik_	20:26
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Venemo	hey pupnik_	20:26
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: no, meego product specs and UX guidelines have been writtten in stone when those Nokia and Intel dudes sat together in a bar and sketched the system on a papertowel after 7 beers. Now everybody is "free to add patches, after we finished initial version <of a arbitrary subsystem completely unsuited for the purpose>"	20:26
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: UX guidelines are for the official UXes.	20:27
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: meego is boring me, sorry. full stop.	20:27
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, everything starts out like that.	20:28
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: anyway, which is a free software-based mobile OS that you would prefer?	20:28
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DocScrutinizer	I'd rather go with raster's *nix than meego	20:28
Venemo	mhm	20:28
* javispedro reads DocScrutinizer comments and remembers his own comments when the N900 was about to come =)		20:28
GAN900	Hehe	20:29
javispedro	(yet the N900 came, and while I started partially porting the diablo UI, never really felt the complete need)	20:29
lcuk	GAN900 don't you laugh :P you once said something about never using a device with a phone on it :P	20:29
javispedro	*the need to complete it ;)	20:29
GAN900	Change is hard.	20:29
GAN900	Especially when change comes to a prosthetic limb. :P	20:30
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: you must be confusing me with somebody else. I joined "the maemo community" not earlier than 1 month after I ordered my N900, afair	20:30
javispedro	aw sorry, third person failure.	20:30
javispedro	that "his" was /me.	20:31
DocScrutinizer	aah sorry, me got it wrong	20:31
javispedro	we need more pronouns for irc =)	20:31
DocScrutinizer	OP	20:31
DocScrutinizer	self	20:32
* lcuk squeezes the flaps on an engine to try and prise it open		20:33
javispedro	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=961337#post961337 yet another Hildon UI over Meego project	20:34
javispedro	DocScrutinizer^^ ;)	20:34
RST38h	The correct usage is ",self"	20:34
RST38h	javispedro: this project will come to nothing	20:35
javispedro	(as usually)	20:36
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RST38h	smoku's project actually has good chances of success	20:36
javispedro	I have one gripe with it	20:37
javispedro	he did not start from the maemo patched gtk+	20:37
Venemo	javispedro: why the hell did they start doing this, when smoku already has the work 90% done?	20:38
javispedro	(90% of the work is not h-d only, please also consider the rest of Hildon)	20:38
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user_	right using irssi on n900 isn't so easy be back	20:39
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javispedro	unless all you want is the window manager ;)	20:40
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javispedro	"Gnome removes maximize/minimize window controls"	20:41
Venemo	javispedro: hildon libs work on it afaik :)	20:41
RST38h	you too	20:42
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javispedro	Venemo: didn't find the source then	20:44
Venemo	javispedro: of what?	20:44
javispedro	modified libhildon	20:44
javispedro	I'm not sure if a unchanged one works without the patched gtk+	20:45
javispedro	RST38h: now wait until "Gnome removes all controls".	20:45
Venemo	javispedro: well, afaik it uses the Hildon lib in MeeGo's repo. also, Smoku's stuff is in MeeGo's OBS, and the OpenSuse packages are here: http://codex.xiaoka.com/pub/cordia/openSUSE/ ask smoku about it on #cordia if you want to know more	20:46
RST38h	javispedro: ...and extra mouse buttona	20:46
RST38h	s	20:46
javispedro	Venemo: ok, so then he's virtually done =)	20:47
javispedro	though still %configure --with-maemo-gtk=no :(	20:47
javispedro	there's a lot of problems when doing for example input method stuff (which you know I'd like to get) without the patched gtk+ :P	20:48
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DocScrutinizer	Venemo: btw SHR on N900 is progressing nicely	20:48
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javispedro	(_unless_ he plans to reuse hildon-input-method, which would be nice but probably against the spirit of meego...)	20:49
GAN900	javispedro, I can't wait for telepathic computers.	20:49
javispedro	(and even then you will need the patched gtk+ =) )	20:49
Venemo	javispedro: smoku's project uses vanilla Gtk	20:50
javispedro	GAN900: I guess Gnome's plan is to remove all user interface elements in order to spur such computing revolution.	20:50
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: SHR=?	20:50
DocScrutinizer	SHR: http://shr-project.org	20:50
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javispedro	Venemo: I know he uses vanilla gtk+, that's what I was ranting about ;P	20:51
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Venemo	javispedro: why is that a problem?	20:51
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: http://shr-project.org/trac/wiki/Screenshots -> so this isn't mimicing iphone at all	20:51
javispedro	Venemo: maemo application compatibility, and some input method hooks.	20:52
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: for SHR the UX != system argument applies 100%	20:52
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: :):)	20:52
Venemo	javispedro, libhildon is there for maemo app compatibility	20:53
Evanescence	where to download maemo system ? i want to install maemo on my mobile	20:53
javispedro	Venemo: apps expect stuff from Gtk+. Like the Hildon icon sizes, etc.	20:53
lcuk	not all apps.	20:53
javispedro	specially not plain gtk+ apps ;)	20:54
Venemo	javispedro: hildon iconsizes are there in libhildon, aren't they?	20:54
Venemo	Evanescence: you can't	20:54
DocScrutinizer	Venemo: for sure SHR - being a spinoff of OE - has quite some quirks as well, but it has a much nicer system architecture and esp it has a nicer community without decisions made behind walls like in meego	20:54
Venemo	DocScrutinizer: http://shr-project.org/trac/wiki/SHR_Architecture doesn't seem to be very detailed	20:56
DocScrutinizer	I'll still stay with maemo for the foreseeable future. Just mentioning it to prove there's other alternatives than just meego	20:56
RST38h	javispedro: I suspect you should simply discuss it with smoku, that should be enough	20:56
Evanescence	Venemo: the maemo does not support download link ?	20:56
Venemo	Evanescence: Maemo is for the Nokia internet tablets and the Nokia N900 mobile computer	20:56
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javispedro	RST38h: I do not want to force more work on him so far, though, which is what this is as he won't be able to reuse the meego gtk.	20:57
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Evanescence	Venemo: so that after i installed ubuntu on N900, i can not install maemo again ?	20:58
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divan	Is it possible to use valgrind on N900? It was annouced ARM support some time ago, and now I see the package valgrind-3.6.0 in repository, but it doesn't contain any binaries.	20:59
RST38h	javispedro: As long as he knows that the issue needs fixing, he will get to it, eventually	20:59
javispedro	Venemo: yes, the icon sizes are actually defined in libhildon -- however the rest are not, like the tree view changes (just grep apt-get source libgtk2.0-dev for MAEMO_CHANGES and you will get a list)	21:00
Venemo	Evanescence: oh, you're looking for something else then	21:01
Venemo	~flashing	21:01
infobot	it has been said that flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	21:01
Venemo	Evanescence: look at that link	21:01
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Evanescence	Venemo: yeah, thank you	21:02
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divan	javispedro, hi. I've found solution for broken avcodec issue - I can symlink libstub to libavcodec in the game's directory, but I need to add '.' dir to LD_LIBRARY_PATH. I can do it via .desktop file, but maybe worth adding it to env.sh?	21:02
javispedro	security risk =)	21:03
javispedro	either way...	21:03
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javispedro	are there any more games using that library?	21:03
divan	Don't know, I'm going to check the rest next few days, cause I've finished with installer.	21:04
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javispedro	if there aren't, I might do the symlink thing.	21:20
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divan	javispedro, I believe it's Avatar-specific issue, but such situation may occur with other games and other libraries. Just an assumption.	21:24
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javispedro	or the _opposite_ might happen.	21:25
divan	What is opposite in this context?	21:26
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javispedro	requires a real implementation of ffmpeg	21:37
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SpeedEvil	I compiled ffmpeg, and it worked	21:38
SpeedEvil	Or am Iimagining stuff again.	21:38
SpeedEvil	yeah - I compiled it - itwas simple	21:40
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SpeedEvil	ffplay is lots more complex thoguh	21:40
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javispedro	yes -- the issue at hand is still the same as yesterday; some game seems not to like our extras build.	21:43
SpeedEvil	Sorry -0 I wasn'treading context	21:46
ShadowJK_	lots of stuff disabled in the extras build?	21:53
javispedro	it seems to play ogg files fine...	21:53
SpeedEvil	I dunno.	21:53
ShadowJK_	although I vaguely remember mru fixed some neon bugs a few months after extra-codecs or whatever it was that originally pulled in ffmpeg came	21:54
SpeedEvil	I just installed gcc in a chroot, and built it.	21:54
SpeedEvil	And it worked.	21:54
SpeedEvil	At least for what I was wanting it for.	21:54
javispedro	it could be virtually anything, even, maybe they changed the library interface and didn't bump soname, or something	21:54
* SpeedEvil is a bear of very little brain.		21:54
ShadowJK_	They have a pretty struct api version policy, but users of it mostly ignore it :)	21:55
ShadowJK_	Which version did you compile, SpeedEvil?	21:57
* DocScrutinizer yawns		21:57
* SpeedEvil wonders if he has a copy.		21:58
SpeedEvil	It would have been whatever was stable 9 months or so ago.	21:58
ShadowJK_	they have a stable svn/git policy :P	21:59
SpeedEvil	2010-09-11.115451+0100BST.txt:(12:12:46 PM) SpeedEvil: nandan: There is a complex answer - and there is http://www.mauve.plus.com/test/ffmpeg	21:59
SpeedEvil	oh	21:59
ShadowJK_	the "release" is just snapshots taken by some debian dude whenever he feels like it	21:59
SpeedEvil	Ah - no - nuked that	21:59
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GAN900	RST38h, when do we get networking synching across multiple devices out of FBReader? :P	22:03
* SpeedEvil drops rsync on GAN900.		22:05
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GAN900	Yeah, I've thought about that a couple of times.	22:08
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trumee	DocScrutinizer: buggy stun in N900?, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=961409#post961409	22:16
DocScrutinizer	trumee: how did you know I was about to edit my NAT config this very moment?	22:17
trumee	DocScrutinizer: telepathy :p	22:18
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DocScrutinizer	trumee: looks strange. 192.168.1.1 is not stunserver.org	22:19
trumee	DocScrutinizer: so any idea how it could be fixed without disabling rebind attack protection in the router	22:19
Sc0rpius	haha	22:20
DocScrutinizer	trumee: sorry - I fail to understand the nature of the problem	22:20
trumee	DocScrutinizer: www.stunserver.org is certainly not, but ping stunserver.org is resolving to 192.168.1.1	22:20
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DocScrutinizer	NFC, possibly ALG in router	22:21
DocScrutinizer	I can't decode that 3 lines to make a proper error description out of that	22:22
Sc0rpius	well they defined in the DNS zone stunserver.org as 192.168.1.1 to force people to use a complete server name	22:22
Sc0rpius	nslookup stunserver.org in any computer in the world will resolve as 192.168.1.1	22:22
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Sc0rpius	I fail to see why that suprises people	22:22
DocScrutinizer	LOL	22:22
Sc0rpius	surpirses	22:23
Sc0rpius	surprises!	22:23
trumee	Sc0rpius: my openwrt router is moaning about it	22:23
DocScrutinizer	orly?! ;-O	22:23
Sc0rpius	you're not supposed to use stunserver.org that's a loopback name	22:23
Sc0rpius	they force you to use a complete domain name	22:23
Sc0rpius	I mean they do that on purpose	22:23
Sc0rpius	so you HAVE to use whatever.stunserver.org	22:24
trumee	Sc0rpius: does that mean N900 has hardcoded it incorrectly?	22:24
Sc0rpius	I don't think it's hardcoded since you can use your own server	22:24
DocScrutinizer	well, I don't see who and why is using stunserver.org.	22:25
Sc0rpius	he's talking about using stun in N900	22:25
DocScrutinizer	there's a config option in advanced settings of SIP "use automatic STUN detection"	22:25
* trumee suspects that automatic setting uses stunserver.org		22:26
Robot101	it doesn't	22:26
Sc0rpius	then uncheck that	22:26
Sc0rpius	and type a STUN server and port	22:26
Robot101	it makes a SRV request and most likely will fail to find anything	22:26
DocScrutinizer	if the whateveritscalled entry in DNS has no proper STUN service for the SIP provider domain, then automatic might fall back to stunserver.org :-P	22:26
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trumee	Robot101: good to see you	22:26
trumee	Robot101: so why is openwrt moaning about it?	22:27
DocScrutinizer	I suggest to manually config proper settings for stun server in N900 and disable automatic detection	22:27
Sc0rpius	I suggest that too	22:27
Robot101	yeah, you can use stun.telepathy.im	22:27
Sc0rpius	and there are zillion of public STUN servers	22:27
DocScrutinizer	aaaah SRV - yes thatsitcalled	22:27
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trumee	right, going to use that	22:27
Robot101	SIP servers are meant to use SRV to define their STUN server but really, happens very rarely	22:27
DocScrutinizer	trumee: 192.168.1.1 is local, it's no valid IP	22:28
trumee	DocScrutinizer: 192.168.1.1 doesnt exist on my network actually	22:28
Sc0rpius	oh come on	22:28
* Sc0rpius shoots himself		22:29
* trumee is going to get rid of the automatic stun setting		22:29
Sc0rpius	you even pasted this:	22:29
Sc0rpius	64 bytes from 192.168.1.1: icmp_seq=1 ttl=255 time=0.556 ms	22:29
Sc0rpius	it's obvious 192.168.1.1 is the LAN IP of your "OpenWRT" router	22:29
Sc0rpius	your default gateway	22:29
trumee	Sc0rpius: oops!, i was using somebodys else network to try that out :p	22:30
Sc0rpius	then that IP is the default gateway or the router IP of somebody elses	22:30
trumee	Sc0rpius: yesssss	22:30
Sc0rpius	anyway don't pay attention to that	22:30
Sc0rpius	just set a STUN server manually	22:30
DocScrutinizer	Robot101: could you help me out about how to query SRV record in DNS?	22:30
DocScrutinizer	...on cmdline	22:30
Sc0rpius	set query=srv	22:30
DocScrutinizer	in host? dig?	22:31
Sc0rpius	nslookup	22:31
DocScrutinizer	uh	22:31
Sc0rpius	nslookup<enter>	22:31
Sc0rpius	set query=srv<enter>	22:31
Sc0rpius	stunserver.org<enter>	22:31
Sc0rpius	I'm old, I never got used to dig/host	22:32
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DocScrutinizer	meh, nslookup, what a PITA	22:32
Sc0rpius	hehe	22:32
DocScrutinizer	never used that - LOL	22:32
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Sc0rpius	how did you resolve before host then?	22:32
Sc0rpius	host is fairly new	22:32
Sc0rpius	I mean how did you resolve then back in 1985?	22:33
DocScrutinizer	not at all?	22:33
Sc0rpius	:S	22:33
DocScrutinizer	there's been few intenets in 1985 that I could use	22:33
DocScrutinizer	iirc it's been datex-p back then	22:34
DocScrutinizer	and 2400bd accoustic couplers	22:34
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DocScrutinizer	1200?	22:34
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Sc0rpius	those were the times	22:35
Sc0rpius	FTP was so slow and connection timeouts were so frequent that there was an FTP via email service	22:35
Sc0rpius	you send an email with all ftp commands to a "powerful" server	22:35
DocScrutinizer	hehehe	22:35
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Sc0rpius	then hours later you received an email with all the output	22:36
Sc0rpius	if you downloaded a file, it was uuencoded	22:36
Sc0rpius	it was nice	22:36
DocScrutinizer	and a lot of "big irons" had a unix with a guest/guest user that had full access to the machine :-P	22:37
DocScrutinizer	and even accepted datex-p R connections	22:37
* DocScrutinizer idly wonders if there's been DNS at that time :-P		22:38
villager	if you don't like nslookup, you could always use host -t srv <domain>...	22:40
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Sc0rpius	that was nothing	22:40
Sc0rpius	you could telnet computers, BBS systems for example	22:40
Sc0rpius	and be quick and press Ctrl-C when the banner was shown	22:41
Sc0rpius	and had root	22:41
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DocScrutinizer	villager: I'm just trying both, but seem to recall e.g. sipgate.de actually supports stun SRV, but under a special URL like _stun.sipgate.de	22:52
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DocScrutinizer	I can't recall how to build that special name from the SIP server basename	22:52
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DocScrutinizer	was hoping o find sth in RFC3489 but no luck	22:58
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DocScrutinizer	MEH	23:03
DocScrutinizer	host -v -t SRV _stun._udp.sipgate.de	23:03
DocScrutinizer	;; ANSWER SECTION:	23:03
DocScrutinizer	_stun._udp.sipgate.de. 13995 IN SRV 0 0 3478 stun.sipgate.net.	23:03
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ZogG_laptop	Venemo, hey	23:06
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pupnik	DocScrutinizer: are you using their free service ?	23:18
pupnik	(sipgate)	23:18
DocScrutinizer	well, free as in no monthly fee, no charges for inbound call, yes	23:18
DocScrutinizer	works mostly fine	23:19
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DocScrutinizer	but I read sth about above quoted SRV record has a wrong 3478 port in it, while the suggested port on their website is 10.000	23:20
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DocScrutinizer	not that I really know to read SRV records of DNS	23:21
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niala1	can i ask, what did you use to synchronize maemo locally, without clouds network?	23:24
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DocScrutinizer	pupnik: anyway using that sipgate geographic phone number since ~5 years now, mostly just works	23:28
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pupnik	ty DocScrutinizer	23:36
pupnik	ovi mail switching to yahoo! mail .. "Sie erklären sich damit einverstanden, dass Yahoo! mittels eines technisch automatisierten Prozesses Inhalte wie Wörter, Links, Personen und Betreffzeilen Ihrer E-Mail-Nachrichten und anderer Nachrichten (einschließlich IM- und SMS-Nachrichten) prüft, um zu erfahren, was für Sie wichtig ist und Ihnen verbesserte Dienste und relevantere Werbung anzubieten."	23:37
DocScrutinizer	LOLcougherrrr	23:38
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DocScrutinizer	yahoo always been more evil than even google	23:38
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DocScrutinizer	Nokia sold his soul to the hoofed one long before the Elopocalypse	23:40
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Venemo	hello ZogG_laptop	23:41
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pupnik	but you can see it's just an evolutionary / market maxima	23:41
pupnik	or 'attractor'	23:41
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pupnik	.. making the most economic use out of the service of passing user data	23:41
ZogG_laptop	Venemo i was thinking	23:42
ZogG_laptop	i don't need to learn boost	23:42
ZogG_laptop	it	23:42
DocScrutinizer	sure, while implicitly selecting their user base for those who are numb enough to not care about spying their mails, so probably also most susceptible to commercal adds	23:43
ZogG_laptop	it's just usd in library	23:44
ZogG_laptop	not for my code	23:44
ZogG_laptop	so i might rewrite it into c++	23:44
pupnik	lol	23:45
DocScrutinizer	anyway, they tested cherry on us, not they go for the full treat	23:45
DocScrutinizer	s/ not / now /	23:45
infobot	DocScrutinizer meant: anyway, they tested cherry on us, now they go for the full treat	23:45
pupnik	"gesetzlichen Recht Gebrauch gemacht haben, dieser Nutzung Ihrer Daten zu widersprechen."	23:46
pupnik	sorry	23:46
* DocScrutinizer is happy to never have used Nokia mail		23:46
DocScrutinizer	HAHA	23:46
pupnik	Außerdem werten wir ggf. Nutzungsprofile unter einem Pseudonym (das nicht mit den Daten in Ihrem Account zusammengeführt werden kann) zur Werbung, Marktforschung und Verbesserung der Yahoo! Dienste aus, soweit Sie nicht von Ihrem gesetzlichen Recht Gebrauch gemacht haben, dieser Nutzung Ihrer Daten zu widersprechen.	23:46
Venemo	ZogG_laptop: as long as it works, do as you wish :)	23:47
* GAN900 feels left out.		23:48
ZogG_laptop	Venemo, i would like you to help me to do it in C anyway	23:48
Venemo	ZogG_laptop: okay :)	23:49
jpala16__	die	23:49
Venemo	ZogG_laptop, my weekend appears to be quite busy though, so I can't do it right now	23:49
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DocScrutinizer	just incidentally those succers sent me an "invitation" or some similar shit two ddays ago, somebody wants to follow me or whatever. Damn I had to create that account for twinkle forum on yahoo, and they got a true mail addr to forward that shit to	23:49
DocScrutinizer	suckers!*	23:50
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DocScrutinizer	barbie santacruce wants to connect with you on Yahoo! ---- Von: "Yahoo!" <do-not-reply@yahoo-inc.com>	23:51
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ZogG_laptop	Venemo, talk to me, as i don't find any way except glib and i don't fully understand the best way to do it	23:52
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ZogG_laptop	lardman\|home, ping	23:58
pupnik	lol DocScrutinizer	23:58

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