IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2011-03-05

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DocScrutinizeralways difernetiating to make uterly clear "we're second best, and trying hard to never ever regain pole position"00:01
TreibholzDocScrutinizer: that's exactly, what I thought, when I booted meego on my N900.00:01
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Treibholzthey are throwing away everything good and copy iOS really cheap.00:02
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Treibholzinstead of integrating the really good things of the iPhone.00:04
DocScrutinizerbinning the bits where they differ from iPhone crap, and trying to improve on the copied parts so they get as close as possible to #1 on hteir #2 postion. That's a sure path to always-second never-pole00:04
Treibholzlike CalDAV/CardDAV (instead of the stupid and broken-by-design SyncML)00:04
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TreibholzDocScrutinizer: something that really shocked me, was how fast NITdroid runs.00:08
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Treibholzmuch faster than meego00:09
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DocScrutinizer([2011-03-04 19:45:25] <lardman> docscrutinizer: we'll get you there in the end, I hope) forget it, with this product policy it's getting more unlikely every day00:09
DocScrutinizerI'm not interested in meego GUI, meego concept, and neither in what they obviously plan to roll out as meego-device00:11
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TreibholzDocScrutinizer: what's the alternative? Android?00:12
DocScrutinizerTreibholz: meego is completely ignorant about special situation on a mobile phone (low ram, slow writes to swap, battery power conservation by consequent use of IRQ driven peripherals, whatever) They simply treat handset UX (NB the term) as a usual desktop (possibly even x86 arch centric) with a special skin00:14
divanDocScrutinizer, sounds bad (00:15
TreibholzDocScrutinizer: well, that's not very different to Maemo.00:16
DocScrutinizernope, that's *very* different to maemo, where even kernel seen massive special work done by Nokia to tailor it to OMAP arch and all the system around it. Exemplary case: lis302dl driver vs lis3lv02 driver00:18
TreibholzDocScrutinizer: and that's kind of what I like at Maemo. The n900 ist not a good phone, but a good computer for my pocket. And I can make calls with it! (Isn't that amazing?!)00:19
DocScrutinizerin short: maemo using a nice IRQ based design for acceleormeter while meego is abusing a joystick driver that incidentally was found upstream and used same chip00:19
DocScrutinizermaemo driver (C) Nokia and tailored to fit N90000:20
TreibholzDocScrutinizer: but Maemo also uses too much swap and the n900 has not enough RAM.00:20
lcukDocScrutinizer, can I ask, does MeeGo do anything right?00:20
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DocScrutinizernot maemo uses too much swap, the apps are too greedy00:21
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Treibholzsetting swappines to 100 is not what I call usefull.00:21
DocScrutinizerlcuk: dunno, basically I'm not interested in what's done right in meego as there's enough that's done terribly wrong00:21
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DocScrutinizerI'm not interested in meego en todo00:23
Treibholzbtw. What are the 1300 Meego-developer do all day, I read so much about?00:24
DocScrutinizerthey fsckd up for ~ one year now, I'm not seeing things rapidly changing all of a sudden00:24
DocScrutinizerdeveloping tablet UX00:25
DocScrutinizerTreibholz: ^^^00:25
lcukTreibholz, ooh where did you pull actual figures out from?00:25
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Treibholzlcuk: wait, I'll try to find the links again. Though they may be in German...00:26
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DocScrutinizerwhile meego code development may be more or less open, the system architecture design clearly wasn't, that's why Nokia and Intel made some poor decisions that are biting their back now and will continue to do that for long time. This starts on rationale to base kernel on a particular branch and doesn't stop at UX design rules00:29
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lcukDocScrutinizer, the tablet ux is nice and shiny00:29
DocScrutinizerfor iPhone fanbois, yes00:30
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DocScrutinizeroooh tablet, yes00:30
DocScrutinizermaybe, I'm not interested in tablets00:30
DocScrutinizerwe're talking handset here00:31
lcukso the change in focus for handset that I jsut showed00:31
DocScrutinizerand clearly an OS tailored to meet tablet needs and requirements is a poor match for a phone - that's meego foundation bug00:31
BCMMwhat do you mean by "base kernel on a particular branch"? develop their kernel like a fork, rather than as a patchset for the mainstream kernel?00:32
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Treibholzlcuk: they even talk about 6500 devs!00:32
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DocScrutinizerBCMM: basically meego isn't accepting the need to have a patchset to tailor the kernel for the platform. If it's not main then it is not accepted00:33
Treibholzlcuk: here the say 60000:33
lcukTreibholz, no, it says engineers00:33
mikhasDocScrutinizer, you are insulting quite a few people here. But I guess you know that.00:34
lcukthat can mean people up and down the entire product spectrum00:34
DocScrutinizerI'm not insulting anybody00:34
lcuknot just those tip of the iceberg ones we see working publicly00:34
Treibholzlcuk: and what else should an engineer do with meego?00:34
lcukTreibholz, well since there has been public verification of a meego device00:35
lcukperhaps you know quite a few of them might actually be engineering things in hardware00:35
lcukevening mikhas \o00:35
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lcukTreibholz, watch a Wolkswagon advert, they have a great set where they show one engineer working out how to specifically make windows work or door seals or antennas or something00:36
mikhasVolkswagen, ahem00:37
DocScrutinizermikhas: that's probably the problem meego gods feel insulted when somebody questions their decisions00:37
lcukmikhas, it is a good example because theyshow what individuals do to make the whole product00:37
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mikhasOr perhaps it's reason things are not discussed openly enough, when certain people complain about everything. Regardless of the outcome, they'll always find something.00:37
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DocScrutinizerlol, yeah when there's enough to complain about, including the process itself, then you're likely to find a few bits. For sure closing down discussion is a good way to defend your decisions00:39
mikhaslcuk, VW has this:
rhkfinHow long the CSSU upgrade/installation is supposed to take? I've had it now working for maybe an hour. THe screen's empty, keyboard and suspend button lit the backlight but nothing can be seen..00:39
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lcukmikhas, :O00:40
mikhasthe factory gets the materials by using the public tram service00:40
Treibholzmikhas: the whole city belongs VW...00:41
mikhasDresden belongs to VW? Nah ... ;-)00:41
mikhasWolfsburg OTOH, perhaps ...00:41
Treibholzahh, not in Wolfsburg?00:42
mikhasnope, not this one00:42
mikhasPhaeton comes from Dresden.00:42
lcukmikhas, Nokia building where qgil is are right in the heart of the town and do not include cafe and stuff afaik00:42
lcukI remember reading how it helps to integrate the workforce in with the surroundings and obviously also helps local economy00:42
mikhasinteresting concept00:42
lcukI hope I remembered that correctly00:43
Treibholzin the last 20 years a lot of money was put in the infrastructure of eastern Germany, so this is a quite good idea, to use it.00:44
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lcukfound a brief thing on it00:49
lcukInstead of creating a standalone enclosed campus, Nokia have renovated from bare skeleton a new corporate HQ. I’d say that fits Nokia’s green credentials. Nokia’s new building is close to amenities and the hundreds of new Nokia staff (and possibly their family) will revitalize the city with new business.00:49
* RST38h yawns00:49
RST38hlcuk: Man, you should go work at Nokia's public relations00:50
* RST38h personally would like to see lcuk pitching the new WP7-based Nokia phone =)00:50
lcukwell depending on what club I use, I guess I could get it a couple of hundred yards at least00:51
RST38hhehe =)00:51
b-man`phone gulfing, now that sounds fun :)00:52
merkavahi would like to see revived development for n8x0 :)00:52
unixSnobwow.. gizmo5 is shutting down.. bummer!00:53
ShadowJK_There are already the phone throwing competitions in .fi, but usually the winning phones have been out of production for a decade :P00:53
lcukmerkavah, I just released new app for n8x000:53
merkavahyeah. what to do get new Sip provider00:54
lcukinfact, all the apps I write should work on 8x000:54
lcukbut, meh that is just because of how I started00:54
unixSnobgizmo5 was the only free sip provider that integrated with google voice, no?00:55
merkavahseems a lot of stuff i see is around 200900:55
merkavahor less00:55
merkavahwacha making?00:55
lcukmerkavah, yeah but there are some00:55
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lcukafaik, puzzlemaster is one of the more recent games00:55
lcukthat now work on n8x000:55
lcukthat is written in Qt too00:55
lcukall it usually takes is careful thought about using standard API00:56
DocScrutinizerlcuk: and I really love your work for that aspect (as well) - please keep it like that00:56
lcukDocScrutinizer, it would be difficult not to00:56
merkavahi have a sipgate account, maybe have to put it on my 81000:56
lcukI would have to really fsck the code up to stop it from working!00:56
DocScrutinizernah, it's too darn easy to forget about it and code botch00:56
lcukthough I do have a couple of bugs00:57
lcukpeople do not like the top left corner dashboard switcher00:57
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lcukand think the back button is not needed00:57
lcuk(eascape and switcher are hardkeys on n8x0)00:57
DocScrutinizermerkavah: I'm using sipgate with stock diablo on N810, works like a charm00:57
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merkavah$8~3 @9~ :k00:58
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merkavahnice, doc :)00:58
merkavahi thought of mer but havent yet00:59
DocScrutinizerof course - depending on your particular router - you need to open up and forward some ports, possibly disable SIP-ALG, etc. But that's not related to maemo SIP support in any way01:00
zanberdonot sure if this question is best asked here, but I've recently installed the pidgin-otr from extras-devel and though it installed just fine when I try to initiate a private conversation I'm never prompted to select the method for handling the public/private key... just get an error that 'length error'. anyone know anything about this?01:00
rhkfinCSSU anyone? How long is it supposed to install and what should I do if i've had black screen for ~hour? Backlight responses.01:00
ThreeM10 min01:01
lcukrhkfin, #maemo-ssu01:01
ThreeMif installed just right now :)01:01
rhkfinlcuk: been there, quiet..01:01
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ThreeMbe patient :)01:02
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DocScrutinizergeneral advice: when rebooting, unplug USB prior to device shutdown01:18
DocScrutinizerboot from battery, replug charger when system is up01:19
lcukahem DocScrutinizer, that is not general advice :P01:19
DocScrutinizerit can't hurt, no?01:19
lcukgeneral advice: tying your shoe laces correctly helps prevent accidents01:19
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lcukwhy does that matter though GeneralAntilles01:20
lcukerrr DocScrutinizer01:20
DocScrutinizerlcuk: how is optification dealing with act_dead on initial boot?01:20
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DocScrutinizerI thought it's a very poor idea to interrupt the post-install optification copy process by a reboot. "powering up" device from ACT_DEAD is such a reboot though01:22
DocScrutinizerwell, maybe no complete reboot, but enough of a boot to kill of the copy halfway, if it got started in ACT_DEAD01:23
DocScrutinizers/ of a / off a /01:23
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: well, maybe no complete reboot, but enough off a boot to kill of the copy halfway, if it got started in ACT_DEAD01:23
lcukDocScrutinizer, specifically not sure, since the optification stuff should have already either been done in postinst (if ssu) or already preinstalled yonks ago01:23
DocScrutinizerlcuk: after rootfs flash, the first bot shouldn't be one that enters ACT_DEAD, no?01:24
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* lcuk hones01:25
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DocScrutinizerlcuk: I don't know either, so the advice isn't a hoax01:29
lcukDocScrutinizer, I never said it was a hoax01:29
lcukbut context is everything01:29
lcukthis is not -ssu channel, and most people reboot normally01:29
DocScrutinizergenerally an install that needs a reboot is considering that next bootup to enter full working mode, not ACT_DEAD and get interrupted after 10s when user decides to "switch on" the device01:30
lcukhad you prefixed it with saying "when doing updates ..."01:30
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DocScrutinizerok, granted01:31
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DocScrutinizergeneral advice: when rebooting according to advice of any installation process (or reboot triggered automatically by such process), unplug USB prior to device shutdown01:32
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DocScrutinizerfactoid: N900 keyboard matrix isn't made to cope with arbitrary N-key rollover. Don't expect all 3-key and esp 4-key combinations to work reliably01:59
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DocScrutinizerthere's a list of "not working" 3-key combos: - for 4-key combos (ctrl-shift-blue-<char>) you're on your own02:01
DocScrutinizer(another nice example why N900 is NOT just a miniaturized PC, and why you need to keep in mind this fact even while designing userland apps)02:04
jacekowskiwell, how many key presses typical pc keyboard can do02:04
jacekowskiyour standard average keyboard can only do like 4-502:04
DocScrutinizerdepends, usually they have full N-key rollover02:05
jacekowskiand only some limited combinations02:05
DocScrutinizerat very least fo all the qualifier keys02:05
jacekowskinot all of hem02:05
jacekowskigaming keyboards can do like 10 keys02:05
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jacekowskimy old ibm keyboard couldn't do left+right alt at the same time02:06
DocScrutinizeryou hardly find any PC kbd that can't handle ctrl-shift-alt-<anykey>02:06
jacekowskinew keyboard02:06
jacekowskitry like 5 years ago02:07
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DocScrutinizernever found any02:07
jacekowskii'm just watching tron02:09
jacekowskiand there is nice nix thing there02:10
jacekowskiaround 22:5502:10
jacekowskihe's using real nix commands and getting real results02:10
b-man`ah, i remember that scene :D02:12
ZogGjacekowski, did you bought that film?02:15
ZogGyou are pirate02:15
jacekowskiZogG: nope02:15
jacekowskinot in this case02:16
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gomiamerm... is there an md5sum package for Diablo at a repository?02:21
gomiam(I could do with a .deb instead)02:21
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steve___Does the n900 come default with a screen protector already on it?02:35
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steve___fellu: thanks.02:36
felluJust some black sticker02:36
felluCannot see thru it02:36
SpeedEvil  You can.02:36
SpeedEvilBut not really.02:37
SpeedEvilIt's good enough to see the screen is working.02:37
SpeedEvilAnd that the device has booted normally02:37
SpeedEvilBut not much more.02:37
DocScrutinizeryeah, anyway screen protectors really impair the nice sensitivity of the N900 touchscreen02:37
nidOscreen protectors arent needed anyway if you make use of a case + care02:38
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DocScrutinizerdepending on your usage patterns it might be worth considering a touchpanel swap for ~80EUR after some 2..4 years rather than to get annoyed about a 20bucks screen protector turning N900 in a dull piece of hw02:39
SpeedEvilI disagree02:39
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SpeedEvilI find screen protectors completely essential02:40
SpeedEvilI however tend to abuse my device accidentally.02:40
nidOthats where the "care" part comes in :P02:40
SpeedEvilI was gardening, and accidentally put the seccateurs in the wrong pocket, and bent down and up a hundred times.02:40
DocScrutinizerthat's why I said "depending on your usage pattern..."02:40
SpeedEvilScreen protector was damn near opaque.02:40
nidOmy n900 lives in its' leather case 100% of the time it's not being used02:40
SpeedEvilOn more rational usage - I got addicted to blocks for a bit.02:41
nidOscreen with no protector on it's still flawless02:41
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DocScrutinizernidO: nope, you also charge it ;-P02:41
SpeedEvilThat killed the screen.02:41
nidODocScrutinizer: yeah true fair enough, it lives in its' case whenever it's anywhere other than in my hands or on its' stand02:42
SpeedEvilIf you use fingers, then it's hard to scratch if that's how you use it02:42
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nidOi use both fingers and stylus, but im always intentionally careful when using the stylus02:43
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BCMMi've found that the stylus that comes with it can not scratch the screen02:44
SpeedEvilHard to IME tell when you've got a microscopic bit of grit on the stylus though.02:44
SpeedEvilWhich can scratch the screen.02:44
BCMMsame with a finger02:44
BCMMwell, you can feel microscopic objects with a fingertip actually, but still possible02:44
DocScrutinizeractually the single microscopic scar I got in one of the N900 screens was with fingernail when teher's been some sand or glass or whatever that stcked to that fingernail02:45
nidOthe stylus's that Fake was/is selling seem like theyre probably a bit better than the nokia one at avoiding scratches, the tip seems to be made of slightly softer plastic02:45
BCMMi did totally ruin a screen protector, before i stopped using them, by getting addicted to a game02:45
BCMMyou could see all the in-game buttons on the screen protector when i got rid of it02:45
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SpeedEvilWith a finger, it's _really_ hard to scratch the screen, even with a bit of grit - using the fingertip02:45
SpeedEvilNot so with a nail, of course.02:46
SpeedEvilOddly, I found that a sharp green wood stylus was awesome from a 'not attracting grit' POV02:46
SpeedEvilI used a japanese maple twig from a tree in the garden, lightly whittled02:47
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TiagoTiagosomthing went bad with my accounts :(03:20
TiagoTiagoeverything was set to disabled , the passwords were gone and the display names were reset to the respective usernames, and it seems msetting things again doesn't make login work :(03:22
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TiagoTiagoany idea what is going on?03:26
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GeneralAntillesAndroid Market reviewers are idiots.03:28
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TiagoTiagogah, things are even worse, the Settings app  is CTDing on launch Dx03:28
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TiagoTiagohm, somthing is seriouslly fucked up, can't open more than one terminal window anymore....03:31
jacekowskiyou clik on top bar03:32
jacekowskiand select new window there?03:32
TiagoTiagothat worked03:32
jakemaheuIf there are any kernel hackers here, please ping me. :)03:33
jacekowskidon't ask to ask just ask03:33
TiagoTiagocontrol-shift-X isn't doing anything though03:33
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jacekowskiTiagoTiago: try flashing it03:34
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lcuk2jakemaheu, convention usually says, present your question in a way which explains the problem efficiently and let people decide to answer03:34
TiagoTiagodon't got a PC avaiable (mine is down, mobo issues it seems)03:34
TiagoTiagoand it would be a pain to reinstall and set everything again, not to mention backing up all the individual files and folders i don't wanna loose03:35
TiagoTiagowhat is the command to launch the Settings app from terminal?03:35
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jakemaheuI lost the battery cover for my N800. Because of the sensor for the internal card slot, I can't use the card and swap file. Is there any way to disable the sensor?03:36
jacekowskinot really03:37
jacekowskiyou could hack kernel to do it03:37
jacekowskibut rebuilding it is a pain03:37
jacekowskijust get a magnet03:37
jacekowskiand how to fuck you've lost a back cover?03:37
jakemaheuOr, suggest a place I can get a back cover..03:38
jakemaheunope, checked03:38
jacekowskiwhere are you?03:39
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TiagoTiagoother than reflashing, can you think of any alternatives?03:41
jakemaheuwhat term are you using?03:41
TiagoTiagothe one that comes with the N90003:42
jakemaheuxterm, then?03:42
TiagoTiagoi think so03:42
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DocScrutinizer51jakemaheu: still same as suggested some hours ago: use an arbitrary magnet03:44
DocScrutinizer51jakemaheu: what happened to your shortterm memory?03:44
jakemaheui'd prefer to have a cover :[03:44
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DocScrutinizerthat's no explanation why you ask same thing that got answered before already03:45
lcuk2jakemaheu, ask on the maemo forums03:45
lcuk2see if anyone has a spares/repairs device and will part with a cover03:45
lcuk2and follow DocScrutinizer's advice with a magnet until you can get one03:46
lcuk2alternatively, ask nokia03:46
TiagoTiagois there a way i can get a list of installeted packages sorted by the order they were installed?03:47
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DocScrutinizerwhy would you need sortorder install-time?03:49
lcuk2TiagoTiago, yes there is something03:50
lcuk2you can ls a folder03:50
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lcuk2and it has it in, but i cannot remember which folder03:50
lcuk2DocScrutinizer, its good to know what you installed and the order you did it03:50
lcuk2because all things needed for something are clustered03:50
DocScrutinizerhmm, k03:51
lcuk2i just asked exactly this in rpm03:51
TiagoTiagoI wanna see which packages got installed more recently to try uninstalling them and see if that fix things03:51
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jakemaheuWhoops, forgot to charge my tablet :P03:52
DocScrutinizerls -l /opt03:52
DocScrutinizershould kinda help a bit03:52
TiagoTiagohm, seems FAPMAN lets you sort by date, is that really the install date?03:53
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DocScrutinizerfind /opt -executable -ls03:55
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DocScrutinizerduh, nm. That's compile date usually03:56 seems03:56
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nox-yeah i was just about to wonder...03:56
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nox-the debs are just unpacked, keeping timestamps intact03:57
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DocScrutinizerso back to ls -l /var/cache/apt/archives/03:58
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DocScrutinizermeh, same03:59
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TiagoTiagoisn't there a log somewhere that says what was installed when?04:00
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TiagoTiagobtw, does the N900 got a wayto schedule a boottime file system checkup?04:02
cehtehiirc the power kernel tools had something04:03
DocScrutinizernot sure about ls -lc /var/cache/apt/archives/04:03
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lcuk2TiagoTiago, plenty of suggestions :)04:05
lcuk2and actual info04:06
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lcuk2I used that to do whatever I needed - infact, I setup a bookmark on my sftp client04:06
TiagoTiagoshit, browser is CTDing too04:06
lcuk2so I could see04:06
TiagoTiagoshould i try rebooting or the less i reboot the better right now?04:06
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DocScrutinizerls -l /var/lib/dpkg/info/*.list | awk '{print $6 " "$7" "$8}' | sed s/.list// | sort  ;# just nice :-D04:07
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GeneralAntillesMan, Android sucks more than I remember.04:08
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TiagoTiagoonly shows the dates, but not the stuff associated with them04:10
TiagoTiagois 380mb free on /home enough?04:12
wmarone__GeneralAntilles: and it will never suck less04:14
jakemaheuSince Mugen has the BP-5L out of stock, are there any other companies that make decent high-capacity batteries?04:16
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DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: what do you mean by "associated with them"? a complete graph of rdepends is a quite huge thing04:16
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TiagoTiagowasn't that a list o dates of when things were installed?04:17
DocScrutinizeryes, so?04:17
TiagoTiagoit only shows the when, i wanna also know the what04:18
DocScrutinizerisn't that clear by the name of the file? o.O04:18
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DocScrutinizerI mean, what more do you need?04:19
TiagoTiagowait, what filename?04:19
DocScrutinizer2011-01-19 19:31 /var/lib/dpkg/info/orrery04:19
DocScrutinizer2011-01-22 18:55 /var/lib/dpkg/info/libmarble04:20
DocScrutinizer2011-01-22 18:55 /var/lib/dpkg/info/marble04:20
DocScrutinizer2011-01-22 18:55 /var/lib/dpkg/info/marble-data04:20
DocScrutinizer2011-01-22 18:55 /var/lib/dpkg/info/marble-plugins04:20
DocScrutinizer2011-01-22 18:57 /var/lib/dpkg/info/marble-maps04:20
DocScrutinizer2011-01-26 18:26 /var/lib/dpkg/info/flashlight-applet04:20
TiagoTiagowith me it only outputs the date and time....04:20
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TiagoTiagoactually, it just gives me month, day and then hour and minute, no year nor seconds04:21
DocScrutinizersorry dude, copied from backscroll here and pasted to xterm, works04:21
TiagoTiagosorry, the seconds are there04:22
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DocScrutinizermeh, blame:04:22
infobotmessy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils04:22
DocScrutinizeruse a decent shell, use bash04:23
TiagoTiagono, sorry, i was right the first time, no seconds04:23
TiagoTiagosame result inside bash....04:25
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DocScrutinizernope, here it works in bash while I get your result in messybox04:25
DocScrutinizermaybe you should install coreutils as well, ls in bash still is busybox ls04:26
DocScrutinizeryou can tell by `ls --help`04:26
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DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# busybox ls -l /var/lib/dpkg/info/zlib1g.list04:30
DocScrutinizer-rw-r--r--    1 root     root          284 Oct 30  2009 /var/lib/dpkg/info/zlib1g.list04:30
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# ls -l /var/lib/dpkg/info/zlib1g.list04:30
DocScrutinizer-rw-r--r-- 1 root root 284 2009-10-30 12:29 /var/lib/dpkg/info/zlib1g.list04:30
jakemaheuAny high-capacity battery sugggestions? ^_^;;04:30
TiagoTiagoi got core-utils gnu installed, but the plain core-utils asks me to uninstall lots of stuff to install it....04:30
jakemaheuFor the N800.04:30
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: then make sure you are using coreutils-gnu ls in the cmdline I posted04:31
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DocScrutinizerprobably gls04:31
TiagoTiagohow do i do that?04:31
DocScrutinizeror /bin/gnu/ls or sth04:31
DocScrutinizer/usr/bin/gnu/ls --help04:32
DocScrutinizergls --help04:32
DocScrutinizerls --help04:33
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# echo $PATH04:33
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TiagoTiagothere we go, thx04:33
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TiagoTiagois it safe to make bash and the gnu coreutills the default in the N900?04:34
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DocScrutinizernot really04:36
DocScrutinizerI think coreutils for default breaks boot04:36
DocScrutinizerjust because of such incompatibilities like the one you just witnessed04:36
TiagoTiagohm, that list isn't up-to-date it seems, i've installed lots of shit this year but the list starts with december of 2010....04:36
DocScrutinizerit might be incomplete, if var/lib/dpkg/info got cleaned by whatever04:37
DocScrutinizeralso of course a reflash is like a new install, even when you restore backup04:38
DocScrutinizerso odds are you reflashed in dec 2010?04:38
TiagoTiagono, new stuff is missing but old stuff is there04:38
DocScrutinizerhmm, nfi04:39
infobotwell, nfi is No Fucking Idea04:39
TiagoTiagodoes Maemo Synaptic bypasses the procedure that leaves traces where that command reads from?04:40
TiagoTiagoThat is what i usually use for installing, uninstalling and upgrading programs, HAM freezes too much, FAPMAN doesn't work (complains about repositories), and apt-get lacks a nice GUI04:44
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DocScrutinizerbtw the busybox ls date format was about the first thing I cursed on linux, some >15 years ago04:45
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DocScrutinizerback then it's been standard format of ls04:45
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GeneralAntillesSeriously, Android. . . .04:47
GeneralAntillesThis is what people use and they LIKE it?!04:47
* DocScrutinizer cackles04:47
* DocScrutinizer cackles satanically04:47
TiagoTiagoWhat were they thinking when they choose busybox for their pseudo-flagship hackerphone?04:47
infobotmessy... err busybox is meant for lean scripting. Regarding all the missing options and immanent limitations (see su) it's not really the interactive shell of choice. A lot of people hate busybox because a lot of system integrators don't understand the difference between busybox and a decent user interactive shell plus unix utils04:47
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DocScrutinizerfor lean scripting which is fast with small memory footprint it's quite OK I guess04:48
DocScrutinizernah, actually not even then, which is proven by the annoying initscript incompatibilities04:49
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: what's that shell on Andridiot? X-D04:50
TiagoTiagoKinda sounds like they didn't really knew what they were doing and just went with what their friend that worked at a computer store suggested...04:51
cehtehDocScrutinizer: beanshell? :)04:51
DocScrutinizerdo you operate it via browser rather than xterm?04:52
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cehtehpossibly :P04:52
cehtehyou know ajaxterm btw?04:53
DocScrutinizerjeah, heard of it04:53
DocScrutinizeryeah even04:53
TiagoTiagoWould it be possible for the community to develop a fixed version of Maemo5 that works with bash and gnu coreutils or the parts that are dependent on bb are closed source?04:53
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DocScrutinizerthere's been an article in c't some years ago04:53
DocScrutinizera lot is closed source04:54
cehtehthere is closed source in bb?04:54
cehtehdidnt know that04:54
DocScrutinizerbut for coreutils and shell there's no real problem04:54
TiagoTiagoany idea how i can fix my N900 (messed up Accounts' acounts, lots of programs CTDing on launch ) without reflashing?04:54
cehtehyes you can replace anything and just keep busybox around for the messy parts04:55
DocScrutinizerwhich is pretty much what I do04:55
TiagoTiagoAre there plans of doing that in the CSSU project?04:55
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DocScrutinizerdon't think so, that's mainly admin stuff, you can do it yourself basically04:56
DocScrutinizersee, that cmdline worked "ootb" on my N900 bash+*-utils setup04:57
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cehtehbtw i dint cared yet but where can i get CSSU? its not on the repos04:57
DocScrutinizerit's an own repo04:57
TiagoTiagoWouldn't that save the users from lots of headaches etc and not have any sinificant downsdides?04:57
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cehtehTiagoTiago: normal userland is much bigger04:57
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: it will break on next SSU04:57
cehtehthe only advantage of busybox is that it is small :P04:58
TiagoTiagowill there be one outside of the CSSU?04:58
cehtehthere are alreaady ...04:58
DocScrutinizercehteh: not that it really was THAT much bigger so it would make a diff on a device with 32GB storage04:58
cehtehDocScrutinizer: think about the ram for resident programs04:59
cehtehif it had 1GB ram then no problem .. but 256m .. damnit04:59
DocScrutinizerlast time SpeedEvil checked, the diff between bash and busybox memory footprint wasn't really significant04:59
TiagoTiagoany idea how i can fix my N900 (messed up Accounts' acounts, lots of programs CTDing on launch ) without reflashing?05:00
cehtehwith all libs and accounting for all programs served by busybox?05:00
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: sorry05:00
cehtehTiagoTiago: replay your backup :P05:00
TiagoTiagodon't got one recent enough :(05:01
cehtehmine strangely doesnt boot with usb connected .. something is borked05:01
cehtehbut i dont want to reflash05:01
DocScrutinizercehteh: progs served by busybox are temporary, so memusage is irrelevant05:01
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TiagoTiagorebooting with the charger on often doesn't work every since one or two power kernel versions ago05:01
GeneralAntillesWhy do Android idiots call dding a .img to an SD card burning. . . .05:02
cehtehexiting hot stuff for java progammers :)05:02
nox-or maybe they thought about cds?05:03
DocScrutinizerin germany there's an answer to that "vermutlich brennt ihnen der Kittel"05:03
DocScrutinizerwhich roughly translates to "their suit is burning"05:04
TiagoTiagowhat is the terminal command to launch microB?05:04
DocScrutinizererr, some dbus magic05:04
TiagoTiagoi wanna see if it is spitting any errors05:04
DocScrutinizeroops, that won't work this way05:05
DocScrutinizertry browserd05:05
DocScrutinizermeh, browser05:05
TiagoTiagogreat, the wall charger isn't providing enough power to charge...05:06
DocScrutinizerwhat you're doing on that device? downloading HD video streams via UMTS and playback it on device?05:07
* GeneralAntilles pounds head on desk.05:07
TiagoTiagoi think somthing might have gone really wrong physicly, no idea what05:07
GeneralAntillesThey're like small, broken children.05:07
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: better fetch a huge hammer to adjust that andridiot device05:08
* GeneralAntilles needs a MeeGo image.05:09
TiagoTiagogonna try shutting down and leave it charging to full, if you don't see me around for a few days i'm probably looking for a new N900 or a repair service that can outdo Nokia (which is probably not that hard)05:09
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DocScrutinizeranother android fan is born ;-P05:16
GeneralAntillesThis makes me so much more depressed about Nokia's recent strategic changes.05:17
* GeneralAntilles rages.05:17
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GeneralAntillespupnik, howdy.05:25
pupnikhi GeneralAntilles05:25
pupnikplayin with e71 and e72 right now.  in some ways they're quite nice, in other ways they're like a straightjacket05:26
pupniksymbian doesn't even let you change your keyboard layout05:26
GeneralAntillesPlaying with Android right now.05:26
pupnikwhat device05:26
GeneralAntillesI want to put ice picks in my eyes.05:26
pupniklol why05:26
GeneralAntilles'Cause it was cheap and I want to put MeeGo on it.05:27
pupnikhow is the display in bright light?05:27
GeneralAntillesDunno yet.05:27
GeneralAntillesOnly had it in dark.05:27
pupnike71 and e72 in sexxy black
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pupnikGeneralAntilles: so basically it's a standard lcd display?05:29
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DocScrutinizerlcuk: (apt.get wrapper to keep a log)05:31
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DocScrutinizerwell, saving devices by replacing andridiot by anything better is a oble thing for sure :-)05:36
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pupnikDocScrutinizer: have you managed to swap one of those camera modules without the special nokia tool?05:39
pupnikit's clipped in there pretty good - i can't see how to loosen it05:40
DocScrutinizernever tried it05:41
DocScrutinizerI guess there's a reason they offer a special tool for that05:41
pupniklooks like e72 and n900 share the same 5.0 mp camera05:42
pupnikmaybe not05:42
DocScrutinizerprobably there are latches down the bay, and you need to push them back by pushing down a thin thing between cam and bay on all 4 sides05:42
pupniknokia wants me to pay 30-50 euro to at a nokia service center to change symbian keyboard layout05:44
DocScrutinizerwell, maybe with swap of keymat05:44
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pupnikyeah well i have to swap-in a german keymat here
pupnikbeautiful devices though - just feel great in the hand05:45
luke-jrso um05:45
luke-jrone of the companies I do work for had a crisis today and I bailed them out05:46
luke-jrCEO sez he owns me an iPad 205:46
luke-jrwhich probably sucks due to Apple crap, but what else is comparable? XD05:46
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pupnikhow about something preferable05:47
DocScrutinizerpupnik: doesn't look like the keymats would match05:48
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pupnikthey are different keymats yes, i'm just repairing the e7205:48
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TiagoTiagook, charger working again, programs launching again07:25
TiagoTiagostill got issues with Accounts07:25
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TiagoTiagogonna try set the passwords again07:27
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TiagoTiagoOk, working again; any idea why the passwords were all gone?07:30
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*** DocScrutinizer changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo | | Maemo Community Council | Source: | Chanlog: | Just one more week to council elections!"07:48
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pupnikdealing with closed-source phones really is a pain in the behind07:55
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DocScrutinizernah, it's mere fun ;-D08:05
DocScrutinizeractually I didn't manage to find out why my 6210 sometimes broke on sending DTMF - though I tried ~10 years to find a pattern/cause08:07
DocScrutinizerdon't worry, live with it. You can't change it anyway08:07
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* DocScrutinizer cackles on meego developers edition and the call for coounity participation. Sure, now everything changes to the better, now that Nokia officially participates08:09
DocScrutinizer@council: who of you will be available for another term, i.e. for re-election for council? Who definitly won't?08:17
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: what's up with you?08:17
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pupnik"in france you are only allowed to use WLAN indoors"08:34
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RST38hzee french!...08:35
pupnikwow, e72 feaures 'remote sim mode'08:35
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DocScrutinizerlol? wow! *doubts*08:41
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DocScrutinizerhost, client, or both?08:41
DocScrutinizervia BT, via FBUS, via WLAN?08:41
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DocScrutinizercould you please start pnatd in xterm and see what it answers to AT+CSIM?08:42
pupnikjust reading the docs DocScrutinizer08:47
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DocScrutinizer(indoors) is a tent indoors? is usage on a balkony indoors?08:47
pupnikfrom this
DocScrutinizermeh, French. Where the techblogs don't know mini-USB from micro-USB08:50
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pupnikIf ignorance is not an excuse for the law, how do we explain Congress?09:02
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TiagoTiagoDidn't the french pass a law forbiding people from choosing how to dress above the neck?09:32
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TiagoTiagoSomeone should do a ninja parade there with hundreds of people covered from head to toe in black stealth ninja suits....09:33
pupnika parade of ninjas would be hard to see09:36
TiagoTiagoImagine the news footage,  riot police facing off a batallion of ninjas!09:36
TiagoTiagowith a*09:36
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pupnikmaybe the n950 will have dual-wifi cards for mesh networking09:37
TiagoTiagohave you heard of "super wifi"? Some people wanna use wifi over analog TV frequencies to go further and deeper with the same wattage09:38
pupnikreflections suck09:38
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pupnikty TiagoTiago - very interesting09:41
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TiagoTiagoI wonder if it woud be possible to control the sending of bits to the point of tricking analog TV receivers into recognizing the signal as images and/or sounds09:45
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khertan_DocScrutinizer, if only mini-USB and micro-USB was the only problem09:53
khertan_for them the rumored specs of the n950 is official09:55
khertan_and it s also a mini usb :)09:55
khertan_<pupnik> "in france you are only allowed to use WLAN indoors" <<< nope ... you can paid to get a licence, or use restricted paid to use wlan from phone carrier09:56
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* khertan_ try a new ide for Python Dev ... Aptana studio ... 5 min to agree that it s not for me ;) (1min to load a simple python file on a quad core i5 with 8Go of ram and file located on a ssd)10:01
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khertan_n950 :
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khertan_ <<< -- original n900 concept10:06
gfvirgaHello, yall!!!! Could someone help me with a bricked phone?10:06
* dm8tbr hands some mortaar10:07
TiagoTiagoKinda on topic; how challenging would it be to design a device similar to the N900 that has a main processor being an ARM but also got a coprocessor that is based on the x86 architecture,  with the device being capable of using binaries copiled for both ARM and x86  processors, multitasking,  without needing to booth into alternate OS to switch architecture?10:09
gfvirgaI created the thread today, I managed to install the FIASCO then the EMMC without rebooting. But the Maemo doesnt boot :(10:09
psycho_oreosdid you verify the download of the firmware to see if it matches with the file provided online?10:12
dm8tbrTiagoTiago: skip the copro, go for qemu :)10:13
TiagoTiagowon't qemu reduce the performance significantly?10:14
dm8tbrI'd like to see benchmarks. preferably for a hardfloat qemu10:16
gfvirgaWhats qemu?10:18
gfvirgaI checkedsum the files they are normal10:19
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TiagoTiagoit's an emulator capable of emulating systems in several different architectures10:22
gfvirgaOhh, I wanted to try maemo really bad :( .10:25
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gfvirgasorry, I better sleep10:27
gfvirgasee youu10:27
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JaffaMorning, all11:40
JaffaGeneralAntilles: Sorry, was busy yesterday - didn't see it. Will do it today, though11:40
TiagoTiagois there a way i can make Hildon ignore child windows of a program, letting me choose to have the main window focused even when the childwindow tries to be on top?11:41
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TiagoTiagoballs :(12:03
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TiagoTiagois there a way i can make Hildon ignore child windows of a program, letting me choose to have the main window focused even when the childwindow tries to be on top?12:31
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TiagoTiagooh well, i'm heading off, cya12:57
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JaffaAnyone done anything with QML & the accelerometer (i.e. QtMobility.sensors)13:43
MohammadAGcue complaints about high cpu usage13:45
JaffaWell, indeed.13:46
JaffaJust testing something for now13:46
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Jaffa"module "QtMobility.sensors" is not installed" - gah13:47
lcukJaffa, what are you trying to accelerate? :P13:47
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Jaffalcuk: Playing with latest Qt SDK and thinking of targetting Symbian, Maemo and MeeGo. But there're still annoying gaps.13:52
lcukJaffa, are you remaking attitude?13:53
JaffaSomething nice and simple to start with13:53
lcukcool beans13:53
JaffaDeveloping the QML is relatively straightforward (although the designer now doesn't like it since I've pulled in Accelerometer). But getting it deployed and running on an actual device is too frustrating.13:53
alteregoI had one of my N900s hooked up to a 42" HDTV last night in a pub and let people write messages using MyPaint for a mates' birthday.13:54
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lcukhaha alterego :D13:55
alteregoWent down really well.13:55
lcuksimple lowest common denominator13:55
lcukalterego, last time I had n900 hooked up to a projector13:56
lcukmy cats went mental for lines being drawn on the wall13:56
JaffaSomething around perhaps13:56
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lcukJaffa, will you be able to do the same sort of rotation and custom drawing you have in attitude?13:58
lcukie for the horizon and scale guide lines?13:58
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Jaffalcuk: I *think* so14:00
Jaffalcuk: And I think I can do it all in QML14:00
lcukthe simpler ones you could make end up looking like what I did in liqbase as a first step14:01
lcuklike that14:01
lcukie, that does not involve rotation or 3d but will simply show your code is working etc14:02
* Jaffa has the sky, ground & angle display done14:02
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lcukJaffa, did you see any of the tweets I did from yesterday, had a twitter guy follow me from @Dubai_villa and went looking at them, absolutely breathtaking stuff on the Palm island!14:04
JaffaYeah, shiny. Been there :-)14:04
lcukwhere did you stay?14:05
JaffaThe Al Jameiriah Beach, IIRC14:07
JaffaNext to the big tall hotel on the beach which is the posh one in all the adverts14:07
JaffaYeah, it was:
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lcuknice Jaffa14:10
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jonwilwhats nice?14:10
lcuk<lcuk> Jaffa, did you see any of the tweets I did from yesterday, had a twitter guy follow me from @Dubai_villa and went looking at them, absolutely breathtaking stuff on the Palm island!14:11
lcuk<Jaffa> Yeah, shiny. Been there :-)14:11
lcuk<lcuk> nice14:11
lcuk<lcuk> where did you stay?14:11
lcuk<Jaffa> The Al Jameiriah Beach, IIRC14:11
lcuk<Jaffa> Next to the big tall hotel on the beach which is the posh one in all the adverts14:11
lcuk<Jaffa> Yeah, it was:
lcukjonwil, ^14:11
jonwilI wish I could go on holidays to somewhere nice :(14:12
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psycho_oreoswhy wish?14:12
jonwilno money14:12
jonwilIts called "N900s are expensive"14:12
jonwilnope, my N900 is outright purchase14:14
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psycho_oreoswell at least you won't have high upkeep14:15
jonwilyeah I am on really cheap plan14:15
psycho_oreosstill can't see how or why N900 are expensive when you have bought it outright lol, I suppose you can now look forward to saving money up to travel14:16
jonwilThe N900 cost me about $50014:16
jonwilthats AU$14:16
psycho_oreosa lot cheaper than what I paid, plus mine is on contract lol14:17
jonwilPlus I had a holiday recently (xmas time)14:17
jonwilWent to the Gold Coast to see the family14:17
psycho_oreosnot bothered to also meetup with other maemo users floating around in qld? :D14:18
jonwilThis was BEFORE I had the N900 :P14:18
psycho_oreoslol well I guess you can now look forward to saving money up then :)14:18
jonwilI have other things to save for14:19
psycho_oreosand you DID have a holiday lol, not working endlessly14:19
jonwillike my LEGO habit14:19
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Jaffajonwil: That was a work jolly14:19
jonwillucky thing working for someone who pays for you to go to places14:19
jonwilAlthough I bet they only pay for the crappiest cheapest seats on the plane :P14:20
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psycho_oreoshey better than nothing :)14:21
jonwilit depends on the airline as well14:22
lcukjonwil, your workplace offers INSIDE seats?14:22
jonwilI have never worked anywhere that paid for travel14:22
jonwilor that required work travel at all for that matter14:22
jonwilJunior software engineers dont get to travel for work :)14:23
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lcukjonwil, first thing you should do then is find out how to remove the "Junior" from your percepted job title14:25
jonwilright now I am between jobs and will take whatever I can get14:26
jonwilThere is a lack of jobs around here unless you have 3+years in <technology I know nothing about>14:26
* lcuk nods14:26
jonwilMaybe the Linux skills I am learning from playing with my N900 will help me land a job...14:27
psycho_oreosits a laughable farce the .au IT jobs. They outsourced basic IT and demand heaps for higher up management roles14:28
jonwilThe #1 problem with the Austrlaian14:28
jonwilAustralian IT industry are Recruitment Firms14:28
jonwil99.9% of the jobs I have applied for, my CV has vanished into a black hole at a recruitment firm14:29
psycho_oreosthough if you are on the dole and have enlisted yourself to one of their recommended recruitment agencies, they tend to keep pushing you before they try and refer you into a job if you happen to be lucky enough14:30
jonwilI have one of the govt jobsearch agencies helping me out14:30
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jonwilbut the jobs we apply to end up in the aformentioned black hole14:31
jonwilA google for "it recruitment perth" reveals a laundry list of companies, many of whom I have sent my CV to for one or more jobs and none of which I have ever heard back from...14:32
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psycho_oreoshas happened to me before in qld, and I still end up not being in IT field, gotta love it.. kinda makes me think of tradies, you go through uni/tradesmanship and they try to place you in the job, otherwise the jobs tell you to get fucked14:34
jacekowskithese firms are useless14:35
jacekowskiit takes them year to find somebody if you are an employer14:35
jacekowskiand it takes them year to respond if you're and employee14:35
psycho_oreosthat's how they make money :)14:35
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jacekowskithat's why i avoid any offers that don't lead directly to company14:35
lcukjonwil, if you could find a way to show an employer that you would be as motivated in a real job as I have seen you recent weeks around maemo then you will have no trouble14:36
lcukI am going getting dressed, cyas later \o14:36
zutesmogjonwil are you in perth ?14:36
jacekowskihmm, an aussie14:36
zutesmogme too14:36
jacekowskii work with one aussie14:36
jacekowskihe's soooooooooo annoying14:36
jacekowskiand he's a moron14:37
zutesmogwe all are!14:37
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zutesmogwhats your python skills like ?14:37
lcukjonwil, what is your linkedin address?14:37
jonwilNot on linkedin14:38
jonwiland I dont know the first thing about Python14:38
lcukfor a tech person, have a go, build up a profile14:38
jacekowskilinkedin is like a dick size content14:38
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psycho_oreosin other words a site to measure one's dick?14:38
jonwilOh wait, I do know one thing about Python that I picked up at one job I worked, I do know that Python on Windows is a pain in the ass :P14:39
alteregoI've never used it14:39
lcukit is a way to easily and recognisably share info easily even over irc14:39
alteregoDonmt really plan on doing it either.14:39
psycho_oreosinteresting way to put it, I've seen a few linkedin profiles but I never made a linkedin profile myself14:39
alteregoUnless someone seriously suggests it.14:39
* lcuk suggests it14:40
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psycho_oreosand the boat was missed :)14:40
lcukafter many people asked me to do the same when I was in similar situation14:40
jonwilHad 3 jobs since getting my degree, the first was a 6 month student internship with Motorola working on the phone software (basically it was 6 months full time paid work that was also a university unit)14:40
lcukit helped just to write down and fill in details :)14:40
lcukanyway, clothes14:41
lcukapt-cache search shirt14:41
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jonwilThe second job was doing software development for a university research operation doing genetics research14:41
zutesmogso jonwil I gather you are looking for work in perth ?  What's your main skillset ?  I am not a recruiter - been in Perth IT since 80's  (was with Sun for 9 years in the 90's) and am exiting the IT industry, but have lots of contacts and people are always asking me for people.14:42
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jonwilI am really good with C14:42
jonwiland C++14:42
jonwilAlso Win32 API programming14:43
zutesmogok cool.  UI or low level stuff ?14:43
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jonwilNever written hardware drivers14:43
jonwilall userspace14:43
zutesmogok, what about database, server stuff ?14:43
zutesmogor gfx.14:43
jonwilDirectX I can do14:44
jonwiland probably OpenGL14:44
jonwilalthough I havent done any GL for a while14:44
jonwilI also have GOOD skills with x86 assembler14:44
zutesmogok will keep that in mind.  My main gfx contacts are 2d/print oriented.14:44
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zutesmogasm is a bit too low level for any of my contacts ;-)14:45
jonwilI have no art or design skills whatsoever :)14:45
jonwilcouldn't use Photoshop to save my life :P14:45
zutesmogno probs, most people don't ;-)  But most people can't code for nuts either !14:45
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jonwilNot really a web guy either, dont know that much about Javascript or HTML14:46
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jacekowskijonwil: how good are you with asm?14:47
jonwilIf its 32bit x86 user space, VERY good14:47
zutesmogso basically c/c++ user space, and a good understanding of gfx. Likes his N900, and how do you rate you server exposure (not web) and linux/unix skills14:48
jacekowskitry reversing that14:48
jonwilI have a Gentoo box sitting next to me14:48
jonwilthat I set up myself14:48
jonwiland I am learning more about Linux14:48
jonwilNote that my people skills (when interacting with customers or non-technical people) are non-existant14:49
zutesmogyeah that's fine.  Most aren't good to start with ;-)14:50
jonwilI have no problems using a command line (either windows or linux)14:50
psycho_oreosI guess that's a bit of a side effect of being a geek :)14:50
zutesmoghow about embeded stuff ?14:50
jonwilI cant do all the fancy advanced shell script stuff though14:50
jonwilAlso I can learn new stuff fairly quickly14:50
jonwilNever had any real exposure to embedded stuff beyond mobile phone bits14:51
zutesmoghey I am definately a geek, but people think I am lovely  to talk to, when I don't tell them they're a wanker14:51
jonwiland even then, its been higher level and not drivers or hardware14:51
zutesmogwhat where you doing in the genetics stuff, number crunching, pattern matching ?14:52
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jonwilMostly it was manipulating various DNA sequences14:52
jonwilAlthough not that much was done (because the guys doing the actual science never bothered to talk to us about what they needed or whether what we were doing was what they wanted)14:53
zutesmogok, large data sets  (did you use HDF5 or any of that sort thing ?)14:53
jonwilnever heard of HDF514:53
zutesmogsorry to grill you, just trying to get a feel breadth of exposure.14:53
zutesmogno probs.14:54
jonwilThat was all C/C++ with QT14:55
jonwilon linux14:55
zutesmogah ok.14:55
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jonwilThe genetics work was with the Center For Comparative Genomics at Murdoch14:55
zutesmogany threaded heavily parallel stuff ?14:56
jonwilno experience with threading14:56
jonwilwell minimal14:56
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jonwilI know most of the win32 API calls for it14:56
jonwilMy most recent job (the third) was with the Disability Services Commission14:56
jonwiland involved working with something called SQL Server Reporting Services14:57
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zutesmogAny exposure to linq ?14:58
zutesmogas part of that ?14:58
jonwilA bit of VB.NET work14:58
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jonwilwell there was exposure to LINQ14:58
jonwilin that it was used14:58
jonwilbut I dont know how to use it14:58
zutesmogNever used it myself.14:59
jonwilI did some Java programming back in uni (desktop stuff only, not the server side)14:59
jonwilNot sure how far Java has changed since I did it though14:59
Venemohey, LINQ is awesome14:59
zutesmoga lot more api's .  I started with java before it was called java inside sun, back at the end of 1994.  Its gotten a whole lot of cruft since then ;-)15:00
jonwilJava as a language is great15:00
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jonwilJava as a set of APIs isnt too bad15:00
jonwilThe only problem with Java is the political and legal crap surrouding it15:00
jonwiland all the fights between IBM, Oracle, Apache, Google etc etc etc15:00
zutesmogfar too many.  Just have a look at all the database api's  JDO, JPA, objectify ...........     python is much nice ;-)15:01
jonwilbtw I am 100% against software patents15:01
zutesmogand yep way too much politics15:01
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zutesmogoh well I will be lurking here.  Very much into my N900.  Not taking on any more contracts, and just gracefully exiting IT, so if I see anything interesting will let you know.15:04
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jonwilI am also extremely good at reverse engineering, debugging and problem solving15:06
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jonwilAbout the only technologies I wont touch is Microsoft Access and Sharepoint15:07
jonwilOh and anything involving a God of some kind is out :P15:07
jonwilI havent set foot inside a religious institution since highschool and I am not about to start now15:09
lcukVenemo, did you end up releasing test build of puzzle master for the n8x0?15:09
lcukjonwil, linkedin also allows you to write what you are strong and positive about15:09
jonwiloh and one more thing, I dont have car or drivers license15:10
lcukzutesmog, what are of IT were you involved with?15:10
lcukarea *15:10
psycho_oreosjonwil, still interesting to see that you have set yer eyesight on a VY ute :)15:10
Venemolcuk, it is in Diablo's extras-devel :)15:11
zutesmogbeen consulting/contracting since 2001.  Sun, Linux, web backends.  Re-acrhictected a 2d renderer (which was built in C++ and delphi)15:11
jonwilwhy would I need a car when Perth has such an excellent bus system15:11
lcukVenemo, that is great stuff.15:11
Venemolcuk, all the recent releases built OK for both Fremantle and Diablo15:11
lcukinfact, that is how I thought Qt apps would be15:11
zutesmogand spent the last 2 and a bit years doing mainly appengine15:11
jonwilDelphi, that brings back memory15:11
psycho_oreoser VZ, not VY, just recalled those small lights15:11
Venemolcuk: only drawback is that Diablo release doesn't have any fancyness, since the animation framework came in Qt 4.615:11
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lcukVenemo, fancyness does not matter on a low spec machine15:12
lcukpeople prefer something basic and working than not being able to use it at all15:12
Venemolcuk: that's what I thought when I did this :)15:12
Venemofor details, see
lcukzutesmog, cool stuff15:14
lcukwhat did you use your 2d renderer for?15:14
zutesmogprinting signs.  SignIQ is the product.  The renderer was originally written in toolbook.  I proved (with a prototype) we could take the same templates and build our own renderer.  The built the team, and designed the architecture.15:15
zutesmogwe got some massive performance/stability improvements.15:15
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zutesmogand delivered the new rendere on time ;-)15:16
GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer: I'm not running.15:16
* DocScrutinizer prods GeneralAntilles15:16
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lcukzutesmog, so you rendered to printer15:17
lcukor was it to screen/projector too?15:17
zutesmogdevice context, (supplied to the C++ renderer from a delphi front end)  so we could render bitmaps, postscript etc..15:17
zutesmogI wanted to go with cairo but that was considered a bit too risky (by myself too ;-)  especially as it was a windows app ;-)15:18
lcukheh yeah15:19
zutesmogtext on a curved path is not easy with gdi+ and the rich text formatting is not graet either.  And we would scale text to fit rules.  The templates can be scripted with business rules in javascript/vbscript15:19
zutesmogI got python running as scripting backend as well, but we didn't ship that.15:20
lcukheh I have wrangled windows GDI printing and rtf for years15:20
jonwilWhy cant Windows have sane printing like Linux and OSX15:20
lcukit kindof did15:20
lcukbut it was not the printing, it was the fonts15:21
lcuksince rendering to one DC for screen and switching to print actually gave different scale/results15:21
zutesmognot a lot of fun is it, you can't stay in gdi+ you have to drop into gdi at times as some stuff isn't implemented.  all sorts of insane things.15:21
* lcuk cursed that often15:21
zutesmogyeah, we spent a seriously large amount of time resolving those differences.15:21
lcuki was outraged when I found out .net could not actually give you an accurate pixel size for a string to be rendered15:22
lcukand gives a best estimate15:22
lcuk(before I knew about subpixel stuff)15:22
Venemowell WPF did fix most of these kind of things15:23
zutesmogyep, and try scaling it to fit in a box for each piece of text, that might need to be wrapped or not.  And so have to binary search for the best fit.15:23
lcukheh well zutesmog I endeavoured to solve that15:24
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zutesmogand of course none of the rich text could deal well with arbitrary rotations.15:24
niala900can i emulate midlle mouse button?15:24
lcuklol yeah15:24
lcukzutesmog, from years ago15:24
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lcukeach box has the text as large as possible15:24
lcukwindow fully rescalable15:24
lcukwas a great test of algorithm15:24
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zutesmogsee you guys around!15:25
lcukcya later, nice chatting with you \o15:26
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psycho_oreoscya zutesmog15:28
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jonwilWorking with the N900 has made me realize why I dont like GTK that much15:32
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Venemojonwil, you can use Qt15:36
jonwilyeah I know15:37
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alteregoWhat's wrong with Gtk?15:43
jonwilI think my main dislike of it is that on Windows its junk15:43
jonwiland the apps that use it on Windows dont feel anything like a Windows app should :P15:44
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alteregoRight, so what has that got to do with Gtk on the N900?15:45
jonwilno idea :P15:46
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alteregoBesides, only losers care about Windows.15:47
crashanddie_and people who want to make money15:48
Lava_Crofti would have to strongly disagree out of mere principle15:48
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crashanddie_feel free15:49
Lava_Croftnot with you though15:49
crashanddie_at least he didn't write "only loosers..."15:50
crashanddie_I've actually ran out of electricity sockets in my flat15:51
infobotcrashanddie_ meant: I've actually run out of electricity sockets in my flat15:51
alteregoI manage to make money without using Windows.15:53
Lava_Croftthats great15:53
Lava_Croftbut do you have to be all religious about it15:53
Lava_Croftdont you know that when you are trying to sell a product to someone, going about and telling them that they are losers for using their current product instead of yours15:54
Lava_Croftis actually a quite, quite dumb business practice15:54
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alteregom'hmmmm ...15:56
DocScrutinizerJaffa: it's about time to send out tokens for election!15:57
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JaffaDocScrutinizer: See timsamoff's email on maemo-community.16:03
DocScrutinizerwhich one?16:03
JaffaDocScrutinizer: It's a cock up16:03
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DocScrutinizerJaffa: see my comment on this thing called errrr....
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DocScrutinizer>>Please make sure this time the tokens are sent out quite a few days before start of voting period. I.E. >>00:00 UTC, 2011-03-14 (Monday): Voting opens<< means: send those tokens NOW! Otherwise it gets hard again to sort out things if anything fails - which it does usually (spamfilters, whatnot)...<<16:06
GAN900The "hit by a bus" scenario hasn't been well provided for, clearly.16:07
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JaffaGAN900: /me mutters16:09
SpeedEvilWhat - we get to vote who to hit with a bus?16:09
* alterego wonders what it'd take TI to provide OpenCL drivers ..16:10
GAN900It'll give potential candidates more time to reconsider their plans. *g*16:10
DocScrutinizernot even the "holiday notice: 12.03. - 25.03." scenario has been taken account of. Last time quite a number of users received their tokens almost too late to use them at all, which basically makes any election moot, as it's based on equal rights for all users16:10
GAN900SpeedEvil, we already did. We voted for you. :P16:10
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SpeedEvilFair enough.16:10
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GAN900New morning and I still don't see Android's appeal.16:11
Venemoalterego: OpenCL?16:11
lcukspeaking of androids16:11
DocScrutinizerGAN900: forget it, that morning never will come...16:11
lcukI put a motion activated R2D2 in the chocolate cupboard16:12
lcukand waiting16:12
lcukand waited16:12
GAN900DocScrutinizer, almost a relief.16:12
VenemoGAN900, me neither16:12
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lcukthe yelp and worried run upstairs a few minutes later was classic :D16:12
GAN900Now I just need to source a cheap webOS device to confirm our mobile landscape is well and truly bleak.16:12
JaffaDocScrutinizer: What "holiday notice"?16:13
DocScrutinizerJaffa: last elections some users were on holiday during election period and had no way to check their email 3 times a day for the token16:14
JaffaDocScrutinizer: And? The election should be postponed until every possible voter confirms their availability?16:14
DocScrutinizerthey as well weren't able to do sth like a cron job for the vote, as the token wasn't sent even at the time the voting period started16:15
GAN900I think the point is tokens need to go out as early as possible.16:15
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GAN900Either way, not much any of us in this room can do about it.16:15
DocScrutinizervoting period is scheduled to start in ONE week16:15
JaffaDocScrutinizer: And it won't be, because there aren't any nominations because of a clusterfuck on many levels which I'm not happy about16:16
DocScrutinizerlast time it took one week until I received my token, as Nokia mail was configured crappy enough to trigger 30% of spam filters16:16
JaffaDocScrutinizer: I suggest you respond to Tim's email because this isn't a conversation that should be happening here, but over there16:17
DocScrutinizerI think the post on is just good enough. No need for crossposting (except here where I can get immediate response possibly)16:18
Venemookay, so16:18
Venemoplease tell me, because I couldn't find much about the topic16:19
Venemowhat has the Community Council done for us so far, in the let's say, last few months?16:19
* jonwil wonders if Nokia has EVER open-sourced a previously closed source pakage for Maemo16:21
jonwilor whether license-change-requests has been a total waste of time16:21
Venemojonwil, yes, they did it once16:21
lcukVenemo, a great amount of coordination around the CSSU for one.16:21
jonwilfor which pakcage?16:21
VenemoCSSU is coordinated by MohammadAG16:21
lcukVenemo, CSSU is a team effort16:21
DocScrutinizerVenemo: nope, not exactly16:22
Venemolcuk, it was started and is managed by MohammadAG16:22
DocScrutinizerVenemo: nope, not exactly16:22
lcukMohammadAG would say exactly the same, no one person could handle all aspects of it16:22
Venemoanyway. CSSU is a good thing and I see it on the linked page16:22
Venemohowever there isn't anything else. just "state of Maemo"16:22
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JaffaVenemo: Read those.16:24
DocScrutinizerbtw vote isn't about what recent council has done, but about what next council should do ;-)16:24
VenemoJaffa: already did when they appeared. there is a lot of empty talk and little stuff actually happening16:25
VenemoJaffa: no offence16:25
JaffaVenemo: Offence taken, actually.16:25
lcukVenemo, so specifically what/how would YOU do?16:25
lcukhave you put name down?16:25
VenemoI'm not a member of the council, and I don't wish to be.16:25
jonwilUnfortunatly, Maemo council is like the OpenSolaris council and other similar organizations where there is little interaction with the parent software company16:25
GAN900We have this discussion a lot.16:26
GAN900jonwil, oh, there's plenty of INTERaction, just no action to go with it. ;)16:26
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JaffaVenemo: Coordinating Qt experimental so it doesn't break Qt apps in Extras; getting Maemo community members sponsored to the MeeGo conference, organising and coordinating with MohammadAG on the CSSU, acting as a point of contact for re-energising the licensing change request queue following the work done by jonwil & DocScrutinizer; clarifying's funding status, trying to get balance the competing requirements and clamour for a community "fund", ...16:27
jonwilsounds good16:27
lcukJaffa, ok, that was last week, what about next week?16:28
* jonwil hopes that the licensing-change-request stuff ends up being more than just some talk by a few nokia people and that it turns into actual code we can use16:28
Jaffajonwil: Not sure how you can *quite* say that, given that qgil's acted on what we asked him to (although too early yet to know whether it was a positive outcome). It's also a *community* council, not a *Maemo* council.16:28
VenemoJaffa: this sounds very good :)16:28
Jaffajonwil: Even efforts which don't turn into code are still valuable, and shouldn't be diminished (because then people won't go out of their way next time)16:29
VenemoJaffa: "Coordinating Qt experimental so it doesn't break Qt apps in Extras" -> exactly what coordination is this? Qt has a binary compability promise so it will never break any existing software. what work does this require on your part?16:29
jonwilyeah :)16:29
VenemoJaffa: "getting Maemo community members sponsored to the MeeGo conference" -> this sounds good, no complaints here16:29
lcukVenemo, did you vote in last election?16:30
Venemoyes I did lcuk16:30
JaffaVenemo: Look, I'm not going to justify the last six months work I, and the others, have been doing. 1) I'm too busy; 2) I don't like having to do it. Go and read the maemo-developers threads about the Qt updates that were pushed to Extras-devel and broke everything, until the Council pushed for them to be renamed and tidied up.16:30
VenemoJaffa: how could this happen, despite their binary compaibility policy?16:31
JaffaVenemo: I'm sure you'd appreciate a Council if/when Nokia finally do decide to save some cash in 18 months time.16:31
lcukJaffa, I think Venemo is merely trying to engage and spark discussion :$ albeit a little brash and sandpaperish, I think we should do the interview style thing16:31
lcukVenemo, would you care enough to put your questions into a mail16:31
lcukthat members of the council could reply in own time16:31
VenemoJaffa: as I said, I mean no offence. I'm sure I'd appreciate your work if I actually knew what you guys are doing. this is all16:31
lcukin irc, it is very realtime and would make answers rushed16:31
DocScrutinizerirc is volatile16:32
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VenemoJaffa: I actually voted for you :)16:33
GAN900Venemo, same issue comes up at least every 6 months.16:34
VenemoGAN900: which is that same issue?16:34
GAN900It gets rather exhausting justifying yourself all the time. ;)16:34
DocScrutinizerJaffa: I hope I can vote for you this time as well :-)16:34
GAN900"What has the council done useful?"16:34
lcukGAN900, then find a way to answer the repeated questions16:34
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lcukand a way that future counciles can fill in and add to with ease16:35
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lcukie, build on work from previous!16:35
DocScrutinizerlcuk: good point16:35
Jaffalcuk: Like "Current hot topics" on ?16:35
GAN900lcuk, don't have to, I'm not on it! :P16:35
JaffaAnyway, the right people aren't standing (or getting elected); meaning you get one or two people being the public face of the council (because it needs doing) and 1-3 people doing all the work (because it needs doing)16:36
JaffaDocScrutinizer: Dunno yet. Not minded to let you, TBH ;-)16:36
JaffaDocScrutinizer: You run instead ;-016:36
VenemoGAN900: I didn't say "justify". I just had some questions.16:36
* DocScrutinizer runs and hides16:36
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lcukGAN900, in America, even former presidents still retain some title and stature :)16:37
JaffaVenemo: You may have worded your initial question like that, but then you described the blog posts as "empty words", and denied the efforts around the CSSU16:37
VenemoJaffa: I didn't deny anything, I was asking about stuff.16:38
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DocScrutinizertbh I think the small part of community suffering from my +o and mere contributions aka rant here in irc is just enough - humanity couldn't take more than that16:38
lcukJaffa, indeed16:38
JaffaVenemo: "14:21 < Venemo> CSSU is coordinated by MohammadAG16:39
VenemoJaffa, that's because thus far, I didn't know the Council was involved.16:39
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JaffaVenemo: So I'll just go and delete the wiki pages, the responses on the thread, the patches, the bug triaging etc that I've been doing16:39
VenemoJaffa: chill down please16:40
JaffaVenemo: You can't separate the Council from the members; because the Council is a way of the community saying "we like what you're doing, and what to recognise that you're doing it with our blessing"16:40
VenemoJaffa: as I said, I'm just being curious. no offence.16:40
DocScrutinizerJaffa: wellknown issue, a lot of people think MohammadAG has invented hostmode16:40
VenemoJaffa: as for my wording, I'm not a native English speaker, so forgive me if my words are sometimes inappropriate.16:40
JaffaVenemo: That then gives the Council stature when dealing with Nokia or the MeeGo CO; and some authority to facilitate within the community16:40
VenemoDocScrutinizer: nah, everyone knows you invented it16:41
* RST38h politely notices that the Council is largely irrelevant16:41
lcukDocScrutinizer, he did! :P16:41
lcuk(joking, again that was a team effort)16:41
lcukbut he did invent knight rider lights :O16:41
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* lcuk goes fooding16:42
* SpeedEvil posted knight rider lights in awk aaaages ago.16:42
JaffaVenemo: I'm not (that) offended. Just trying to emphasise that the Council is a badge given to 5 community members. Currently timsamoff, achipa, myself, andy80 & revdkathy. When I do stuff for the community, am I doing it because I'm on the council or because I want to? I'd probably have worried less about the CSSU wiki pages and TMO thread if I didn't have to.16:42
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GAN900RST38h, might be less true than it was before Nokia decided to take a trip to Redmund.16:44
VenemoJaffa: that's appreciated yes :)16:45
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GAN900zerojay, ping?16:52
zerojayGAN900: pong.16:52
Venemokhertan_: ping16:55
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GAN900zerojay, how do I make Android slightly less useless?16:58
GAN900Is CM7 the answer I'm looking for?16:58
zerojayGAN900: Open your eyes.16:58
zerojayI'm helping port CM7 to Captivate.16:58
zerojayCM's basically straight Android with some added features.16:59
GAN900Right now I can't open them because I've put forks in them. :)16:59
zerojayWhat makes Android useless for you?16:59
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lcukGAN900, a 9 iron17:00
GAN900Using it is incredibly frustrating17:01
GAN900Things don't work as described17:01
lcukRST38h suggested driving a WP7 phone, I think we should expand that (and record) seeing which phones go furthest at the driving range17:01
GAN900Settings don't seem to have much effect in a lot of the third party software.17:01
GAN900So, Nook Color17:01
GAN900No hardware keys17:01
GAN900Supposed to install the SoftKeys service17:02
psycho_oreossome android phones does come with hardware keys17:02
zerojayMost Android phones have hardware keys.17:02
psycho_oreosmotorola milestone for instance :p17:02
zerojayCan't think of any that don't off the top of my head.17:02
GAN900Want to set it up so a single press on the home hardkey brings up the SoftKey bar17:02
GAN900There's a setting for that, set it, but it has no effect.17:02
zerojayWell, there's something you have to understand here.17:03
zerojayThat's not an "Android" problem.17:03
GAN900It's like Windows?17:03
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GAN900Everything you have to install because the core is useless is more useless? :)17:03
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zerojayYou're using a hacked up alpha release on something that doesn't support it with software that isn't a part of core Android, so...17:03
psycho_oreossounds similar to maemo 5's case :p17:03
zerojayIn other words, don't blame Android for some random app not working properly on unsupported hardware with an alpha version of the OS. :)17:04
GAN900OK, how about the fact that setting the desktop image sets it at about 1/4 resolution.17:04
zerojaySee above.17:04
GAN900zerojay, example #117:04
GAN900And what part of the OS is alpha.17:05
zerojayCM7 is alpha.17:05
zerojayAs a whole.17:05
zerojayEspecially on that device.17:05
GAN900Not using CM717:05
GAN900On the semi-stock 2.117:05
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GAN900Wondering if CM7 is going to be less awful.17:06
zerojayCM7 is definitely better.17:06
zerojayIt's based on Gingerbread, 2.3.17:06
zerojayDesktop image also assumes you'll be using multiple screens/workspaces.17:06
zerojaySo it's probably spread out over them.17:06
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zerojayYou can disable that... but I'm not sure if that's what you are refering to or not.17:07
GAN900Is there any way to get smooth browser scrolling. . . .17:07
zerojayYou're using a Nook.17:08
GAN900OMAP3621 with 512MB17:08
zerojayYou're using a Nook.17:08
GAN900Don't tell me that can't run WebKit as well as Maemo 5 runs Gecko.17:09
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zerojayIt should be smooth already.17:09
GAN900It's not.17:09
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GAN900Scrolling is at about 6fps. . . .17:09
* GAN900 will laugh when MeeGo runs fine.17:10
zerojayGingerbread will probably perform better but again, I don't have a hacked nook, so I can't say what can and can't be possible on that thing.17:10
zerojayFPS in general on Android is capped at 30fps.17:11
zerojayOn average.. browser scrolling looks about half that.17:11
zerojayLeast on my phone.17:11
zerojayIt's not butter smooth, but it's far from choppy.17:11
lcukcapped by specific code, or capped because it will not run faster?17:11
zerojayIt's capped in code. You can remove the cap easily as well.17:12
lcukbecause on my n810 scrolling was at 33fps17:12
* jaska__ kicks nickserv17:12
zerojayThe only reason the cap is there at all is to reduce CPU use, really.17:12
GAN900Looks like pulling a brick up a 2x4 covered in sandpaper.17:12
zerojayAverage user wants battery life much more than 60fps.17:12
zerojaySo.. makes sense.17:12
lcukzerojay, specifically where is the cap ?17:13
zerojayAnd I think if you want it higher, it's a simple change for power users.17:13
lcukie is there code for it or documentaiton17:13
zerojaylcuk: I'm not sure. I haven't looked into it myself, just heard devs talk about it. I'll get back to you on it if you'd like.17:13
lcukor how to unlock it17:13
lcukit just sounds curious17:13
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lcukbecause with so many devices being underpowered seems more reasonable reason17:14
zerojaySeems like some devices have removed the cap already by default, like the EVO 4G.17:14
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zerojayAs far as I remember, it's just editing a text file and rebooting.17:14
lcukisn't that the same as all development?17:15
lcukjust the size and number of text files varies17:15
zerojayIt looks like it's a little more involved. Basically a custom kernel.17:16
GAN900How do I select between eMMC and SD on boot?17:16
lcukGAN900, which device and what are you booting?17:18
zerojayGAN900: This seems to imply that there's nothing to do but have a proper file system on the card, but I don't know offhand.. never need to do it:
zerojayWish I could have bought a Nook Color and hacked it... they don't sell them in Canada at all.17:21
lcukhang on, I just noticed this is maemo channel17:22
* lcuk mistook it for something else17:22
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zerojayIt's been something else for almost a year already.17:26
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steve___zerojay: you are canuckistani?17:28
GAN900Putting a bootable microSD in will boot it, but I'd rather be able to leave it in and choose in software.17:29
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zerojayI don't know if anyone's done something like that.17:29
GAN900Damn Canadians.17:29
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GAN900You send all of your crazy people down to spy on us as "tourists", don't you?17:29
GAN900Yet another area where Maemo's superior. *g*17:30
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zerojayDoesn't matter when it's dead. :)17:30
steve___yeah... all our agents are in Florida and are over the age of 60.17:30
zerojayNo kidding.17:31
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steve___Not optimum but unassuming ;)17:31
zerojayOld and french.17:31
steve___The CIA won't be able to decipher our bastardize "secret" language.17:32
steve___ou est salle de bain!?17:34
steve___Moment later secret agent Gertrude doesn't make it and one hears "veit, ou est le napkin?!"17:35
GAN900Or French Canadians17:35
GAN900zerojay, less dead than it used to be17:36
zerojayHow so?17:36
GAN900and at least it's usable day-to-day (unlike Android)17:36
GAN900Well, Nokia's not really coming out with much in the near future17:36
GAN900and there's aren't any reasonable alternatives17:37
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GAN900So people will be holding on to their N900s for longer17:37
GAN900and the N900 Developer Edition is a thing now.17:37
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Lava_Crofttoo bad about the N9 tho17:38
Lava_Croftit seems that one is kind of a goner17:38
zerojayIt's sad seeing what's become of it all.17:38
Lava_Croftpeople blame elop17:38
Lava_Croftbut elop didnt make nokia fail17:39
GAN900Another damn useless thing coming out of Canada.17:39
Lava_Croftits not elops fault that nokia still is not competing with iphones and what not17:39
GAN900The board that put him there did.17:39
GAN900Shortsighted Finnish arrogance.17:39
Lava_Croftthe same board that also made nokia fail17:39
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Lava_Crofttihs windows stuff is just shortterm17:40
zerojayI don't think elop was the problem.17:40
zerojayNokia's been in big trouble for quite some time.17:40
Lava_Croftelop wasnt/isnt at all17:40
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GAN900Just the result and the final nail in the coffin.17:40
Lava_Croftbut thats all speculation from doomsayers17:41
zerojayThe added emphasis on Maemo being the company's savior when it was just a research project.. come on.17:41
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GAN900Maemo could've beaten the iPhone to market17:41
GAN900If Nokia had positioned it to.17:41
Lava_Croftto market, maybe, but not much more17:41
zerojayIt would have been eaten alive.17:41
GAN900It'd be a different landscape if they had actually run with it.17:42
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Lava_Croftcant compare maemo to ios at all17:42
Lava_Croftthey serve different markets17:42
GAN900Instead we're faced with picking between an evil that pretends to be good, an evil that doesn't and some thing from HP.17:42
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zerojayIt wasn't ever meant to be something mainstream.17:43
GAN900Lava_Croft, could've been competition money-wise if they had actually pushed it as something other than an understaffed, underfunded research project.17:43
jakemaheuGood morning, infobot.17:43
Lava_Croftbut maemo would never have been a factor17:43
Lava_Croftits for mobile computers, not smartphones17:43
GAN900Maemo 5 is damn close to something that'd make real money.17:43
Lava_Croftnokia has nothing for smartphones, besides this windows7 thing now17:43
GAN900smartphones aren't the future.17:44
zerojayThey pushed our little project out into the spotlight because they had nothing else and they needed to look like they had SOMETHING. And I remember saying that as soon as they had something else, they would leave Maemo in the dust... and they did exactly that.17:44
GAN900Mobile computers are.17:44
Lava_Croftthey might not be, but currently they do make you money17:44
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Lava_Croftand i think even elop said the mobile computer stuff is still the future17:44
Lava_Croftnot in those words, but still17:44
Lava_Croftbut nokia isnt exactly in a position to wait some more years17:44
GAN900Not if you're running with WP7 or Android.17:44
Lava_Croftwhy not17:45
Lava_Croftdevelopment on mobile computers will not die17:45
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GAN900I'm not OK with an advertising company providing my mobile device platform.17:45
zerojaySmartphones have already devoured the mobile computer.17:45
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GAN900Only because the big players like the status quo.17:46
zerojayEverything the average user wants to do with a mobile device, smartphones do now pretty much.17:46
Lava_Croftand they do it very well too17:46
GAN900Mobile computers don't funnel as much money into people's pockets.17:46
Lava_Croftmobile computers are not for the mainstream17:46
zerojayThere's little difference anymore between "mobile computers" and "smartphones" anyways.17:46
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Lava_Croftzerojay: well, the OS kind of is17:46
zerojayLinux on both sides.17:47
zerojayCommand lines on both sides.17:47
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Lava_Croftand still meamo5 is like a desktop OS and android like a smartphone OS17:47
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zerojaybut that difference is mainly a visual one at this point.17:48
GAN900Lava_Croft, mobile computers are going to largely subvert laptops.17:48
GAN900zerojay, and usability. :)17:48
Lava_Croftthat is very subjective17:48
zerojayYou certainly can't claim that Maemo is more useable for the average person than iOS or Android.17:49
zerojayFor guys like us, perhaps.17:49
Lava_CroftiOS is a really slick experience, for my wife17:49
Lava_Croftto me, its just really annoying17:49
Lava_Croftmy wife laughs at the n900 and its clunky interface17:49
GAN900Dunno, every average person I've put Maemo in the hands of enjoys using it.17:50
thomasjfoxLava_Croft: get a divorce? :o)17:50
Lava_Croftthomasjfox: why?17:50
Lava_Croftthat way I'd lose the iPhone17:50
Lava_Croftand i couldnt play any games on it! :D17:50
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lcukLava_Croft, how old are you out of interest?17:53
* khertan_ hate visual studio ... properties of project is so easy to found that i finally edit the project with an xml editor ... grrr 1h30 lost17:53
Lava_Croftlcuk: heh?17:53
zerojayMaemo could have really gotten somewhere, but the one thing that drives a mobile OS or phone these days is the apps. Maemo just didn't have them.17:53
jakemaheuIs it bad to use your tablet at a funeral?17:53
zerojayIs it yours?17:53
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lcukjakemaheu, it depends - probably a bit offputting using it to fly helicopter around etc17:54
khertan_GAN900, my wife didn't like the ui and like his iOS one, while i found the iOS one horrible and always be lost with it17:54
zerojayI can handle iOS and not gag, but I'm just not a fan of the style nor of Apple.17:54
jakemaheuYou still burn your hands when you cook bacon, lcuk? :P17:54
lcukzerojay, it is all about the apps of course17:54
khertan_zerojay, depends on use case ... Android didn't well support python, iphone didn't like interpreted language like python ... so maemo have for me the best apps :)17:55
lcukbut would be even better for the required apps to be a part of the OS for a seamless experience17:55
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zerojayYeah, I agree.17:56
lcukjakemaheu, i never burn my hands when cooking bacon17:56
alteregoI think maemo/meego has a higher ability for synergy between apps and os.17:56
lcuki just put a rasher on my n900 keyboard, close it and play some movies and games for a bit17:56
alteregoiPhone apps are basically self contained lolly pops17:56
lcukit even "bings" when its cooked17:56
lcukLava_Croft, :O you PMed the reply17:56
alteregoSame goes for Android apps, maemo/meego apps are real applications in the same sense that a desktop app is a fully blown application.17:57
zerojayalterego: What scares me is seeing that mentality crossing over to desktops.17:57
jakemaheulcuk, Any new stuff coming to liqbase?17:57
alteregoWe can also introspect much deeper.17:57
lcukalterego, that has its own problem with desktop app startup times17:57
alteregoAnd integrate and provide our own interfaces to our own services for everyone else.17:57
khertan_zerojay, it s already in progress look at the content of the mac storre17:57
alteregolcuk: well sure, there are obviously short comings.17:58
zerojaykhertan_: That's what I'm talking about.17:58
lcukjakemaheu, I tweak as I can, been concentrating on proper OS for a bit, here is recent screenshot to give idea of what I have been upto:
khertan_YOUHOU !!!! Python for 4D pass the test !17:58
khertan_Yihha !17:58
trxif my app depends on qt libs to compile, do i need to include qt libs in Build-Depends in deb control file for the autobuilder or are they allready there?17:58
khertan_i can now code in python inside 4D17:58
alteregotrx: yes17:58
GAN900zerojay, because it didn't have support from the manufacturer17:58
lcukjakemaheu, that photo shows what I thought MeeGo would have - true balance and scalability from handset up17:59
alteregotrx: you should put all the -dev packages you need to compile in that field.17:59
GAN900That's a function of shipping a usable devkit and shipping more than a million or two devices.17:59
GAN900The difference between Nokia supporting and not supporting the platform.17:59
trxalterego i only need .so's17:59
lcukjakemaheu, all the UI in liqbase is now using my handwriting :) truly personal apps17:59
trxalterego do i still need to include them?18:00
jaska"encrypted" text18:00
alteregotrx: you need headers to compile your application, those are in -dev packages, debian packaging will work out the libs you need itself.18:00
trxalterego i dont use C headers, i have my own headers18:00
jakemaheulcuk, that's epic :D18:01
lcukjakemaheu, it is a start.18:01
alteregotrx: So you're not using Qt?18:01
trxalterego i am using Qt but i have pascal bindings18:01
trxso i only need the .so's to be there18:02
alteregotrx: well, your pascal bindings should depend on Qt then ..18:02
alteregoAnd you should depend on your bindings.18:02
trxok, thank you alterego18:03
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DocScrutinizer51GAN900: (smartphone !=future, mobile computers == future) well, tell that Nokia and meego team. Maemo was targeted at "desktop look and feel, and performance, on your handset" </quote Nokia>. Meego handset UX clearly isn't. And for the other poster claiming there's little diff tween smartphones & laptops: that's true for UX when done right, it's not exactly correct for low level system requirements, as a tablet or PC still isn't define18:03
DocScrutinizer51d as always on, running several days from one battery, with resume latency <<0.5s18:03
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SwedeMiketrend doesn't seem to prioritize multi-day battery life.18:04
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ruskiesadly yeah18:04
SwedeMikewell, I guess consumers get what they ask for, people are more interested in performance than multi-day battery life18:05
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lcukif you build using principles of optimisation and minimalism, then those users with heavy patterns get what they want and the people who want long idle life get that too18:06
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lcukSwedeMike, most people make noise about performance18:07
lcuk"I am running 14 browsers with 8 flash instances in each and it is juddering"18:07
ruskiehow about actually closing some of that18:08
lcukie enough computing power to bring down a whole cluster18:08
* ruskie wants an auto-cluehammer device18:08
GAN900Well, no surprise when you're dealing with Java.18:08
DocScrutinizer51lcuk: that's not entirely correct. To truely optimize you need better understanding of a platform hw than that applied in meego universal kernel18:08
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lcukDocScrutinizer51, each platform has its own kernel differentiation18:09
SwedeMikewell, I there is probably a lot more to do for power efficiency both in os and hw, but the fact that the screen needs a lot of juice is probably hard to fix, so we're going to need better batteries to handle multi-hour usage regardless of what's done in other areas.18:09
lcukthe TSG standards were changed last year to specifically allow this18:09
DocScrutinizer51oooh wow18:09
lcukso there is an N900 adaption kernel and one for lardman|home's device etc18:09
khertan_SwedeMike, the most problem is that user want bling bling graphical interface that drain battery with heavy cpu use18:09
lcukie, you dismiss things too easily18:09
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SwedeMikekhertan_: well, yes, but it seems one needs a lot of cpu power to just render web pages... and looking at how much power the screen draws when lit up and when the radio is used, I don't see huge improvements anytime close, even though there are of course a lot that has been done in at least other OSes18:11
DocScrutinizer51SwedeMike: this shows the problem pretty much. Your basic assumptions are flawed. On standby a phone isn't always powering the screen, and that's the situation that needs most thoughts and optimizations and gets the lest love though18:11
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lcukDocScrutinizer51, psst again, it is being dealt with18:12
GAN900Isn't MeeGo a dictatorship now that valhalla's left?18:12
SwedeMikeDocScrutinizer51: of course, if one doesn't use the phone then the screen is off, but if one wants IM always-on etc, the radio needs to be on and that uses a lot of power because as soon as the phone is out of idle-mode radiowise, a lot of juice is used.18:13
lcukValhalla has not left, he just changed root18:13
SwedeMikeDocScrutinizer51: I was talking about actually using the phone a few hours per day as well as keeping good standby18:13
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zerojaySwedeMike: A lot of IM programs now use push notification, so... far less need to be using the radio.18:14
lcukDocScrutinizer51, I pinged you on #meego relating to your point about kernel optimisations18:14
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DocScrutinizer51SwedeMike: still I get 2 days online with IRC, as long as I don't "use" the phone. And that's not going to happen on meego18:14
SwedeMikezerojay: well, most of them still need to wake up once every few minutes to keepalive the TCP connections, which brings the radio out of idle and it takes 30 seconds to go back.18:14
GAN900Ugh, Canadian tourists are eating my soul.18:14
lcukGAN900, what colour book are they after ?18:15
SwedeMikeDocScrutinizer51: well, I don't even get 16 hours out of my N900 if I'm connected to a 3G networks with 3 IM programs running.... I probably don't even get 8 hours.18:15
GAN900lcuk, their accents are too thick, I can't tell! *g*18:15
SwedeMikeDocScrutinizer51: with maemo that is...18:15
zerojaySwedeMike: That's not how it works.18:15
DocScrutinizer51sure, 3G is a hog, 2G is much better18:16
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SwedeMikezerojay: really? so how does it handle CGNs/NATs that wipe sessions from it's NAT table after some inactivity?18:16
lcukSwedeMike, as stated, if you are using data only for IM< perhaps try the 2g lock thing18:17
ShadowJK_my operator doesn't do NAT :)18:17
SwedeMikelcuk: that's a workaround, not a solution.18:17
lcukSwedeMike, well you can try it at least18:17
zerojaySwedeMike: Read up about push.18:17
DocScrutinizer51there's no solution inside 3G specs18:17
SwedeMikeShadowJK_: mine doesn't either, but we're going to have to do it in the near future (I work for a 2G/3G/4G/ADSL/fixed line operator)18:17
ShadowJK_my NATted connection has about 4 day timeout :)18:18
SwedeMikezerojay: you're talking about operator run push now?18:18
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ShadowJK_Screen at low brightness is about 60-100mA I guess, and hsdpa seems to run at around 600mA18:19
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SwedeMikeShadowJK_: all the more important that all applications sync up their chatter so they all bring the phone out of idle at the same time so HS resource can be left down most of the time.18:20
DocScrutinizer51see wiki18:20
ShadowJK_yeah, see libiphb18:21
ShadowJK_not that many things use it :(18:21
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SwedeMikewould also be nice if the phone could signal to the network that it wants to go to idle, right now as far as I have been told, it's the network that has a defined timeout for traffic before telling the phone to go to idle.18:21
DocScrutinizer51SpeedEvil and some of me there are decent figures on virtually everything regarding power consumption18:21
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ShadowJK_SwedeMike, yep, network decides it all18:22
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lcukShadowJK_, wouldn't this clustering be better at the low level interface end18:22
lcukso that it was not down to apps themselves18:23
ShadowJK_The operator here with friendliest policy for always-on on 3g is also the slowest. There's probably a tradeoff thing going on18:23
SwedeMikeso ideal would be for the phone to signal that it wants to go out of idle, get HS, do the chatter needed in a few seconds to update whatever presence etc, and then go back to idle. Would save both network resources and phone battery.18:23
ShadowJK_lcuk, well generally you want webpage to start downloading immediately and not 2 minutes from now :P18:24
zerojayAndroid lets you set18:24
ShadowJK_I suspect that with hsdpa if a phone wants to go into idle or leave idle it involves a dozen other phones too18:25
zerojayHit Return there when I meant to erase... damn angles.18:25
lcukShadowJK_, difference between interactive activation (ie when screen on and user infront of it) and when the device is idle18:25
ShadowJK_I made the machine with my irc proxy block traffic to my phone for 2 minutes  at a time, and unblock until tcp retransmissions have sent it all :)18:26
SwedeMikeShadowJK_: well, if the applications can say "we're all done now for a while, thanks" then at least the phone should be able to hint the network that it doesn't forsee any more traffic in the near future and can go to idle. I guess 3GPP didn't want this for some reason.18:26
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ShadowJK_Well, after traffic has stopped moving, it seems to return to idle at the next opportunity?18:27
zerojayAndroid has a state called "auto-sync" that apps that want to pull down data from time to time use. Some apps allow you to turn off the radio or turn it down to 2G until X minutes, then jump to 3G/whatever, turn on auto-sync for x minutes then turn radio back off again.18:28
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SwedeMikeShadowJK_: in our network, that means 30 seconds until it goes to idle. It releases the HS resource fairly quickly though, think it's after just a few seconds.18:28
DocScrutinizer51ShadowJK_: lcuk: we discussed that issue on OM community, my suggestion been to use different network devices with their own specific properties (like timeout despite inbound traffic, buffer/dont, et all) can be implemented mostly on netfilter level18:29
ShadowJK_5 seconds for hsdpa->wcdma with my operator18:29
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SwedeMikezerojay: are you sure about the jumping between 2G and 3G? That sounds like a lot of location updates that'd use quite a lot of battery in itself, also hinder incoming calls for a few seconds every time it happens.18:30
zerojayYes, I'm sure.18:30
SpeedEvilAh - database sanitisation.18:30
ShadowJK_forcing dual to 2g takes about a second for me on n900?18:30
zerojayYou can decide if you want to simply drop to 2g or drop completely.18:31
SpeedEvil(only for those with a tesco login)18:31
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SwedeMikezerojay: that URL is for a beta application and doesn't seem to be included as standard in android?18:33
ShadowJK_Alot of third party apps don't use the maemo APIs for connectivity at all, so Maemo has no idea of when those apps use or dont use internet :/18:33
zerojayI never claimed the automatic switching was default in Android.18:33
ruskiesadly yeah18:34
DocScrutinizer51you could even implement a status menu slider for connection-speed vs power saving, similar to brightness slider18:34
ruskiethough why should the app actually do it...18:34
ruskiejust add a kernel listener for it18:34
ruskiethere's even a kernel patch that can rereoute all connections through a socks proxy18:34
zerojayThere's an app called Droidwall that lets you change the ipfilter options on an app-by-app basis.18:36
zerojayVery simple.18:36
zerojayApp name, on/off 3g, on/off Wifi18:36
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zerojayNo reason something like that couldn't work on Maemo.18:36
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ShadowJK_indeed :P18:37
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DocScrutinizer51you need a per-app configuration of dynamic rules aka policies for handling traffic. Those policies also are aware of all the other connection properties like port numbers etc, same as (or even in) netfilter18:37
ShadowJK_you can match by pid atleast, maybe process name too18:37
DocScrutinizer51heh zerojay bet me on that18:38
zerojayBet you on what?18:38
DocScrutinizer51just I think the policies should be much more versatile18:39
zerojayI think the way it works on Android is it blocks based on the Intent being used at the time.18:39
zerojayHaven't looked into it.18:40
ShadowJK_you could block everything that hasn't specifically asked for access through maemo connectivity APIs and don't coordinate through iphb (or the higher level things that use libiphb), but it'd be tremendously unpopular move ;p18:42
DocScrutinizer51there need to be per-app threholds and timeouts for 2G<->3G switching, sync to other app groups (aka network /dev-ices) for bundling transmissions18:42
DocScrutinizer51etc pp18:42
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ShadowJK_I just use 2g all the time, except when I want to download stuff in gpodder ;p18:43
ShadowJK_234kbit/s is faster than any modern browser renders on less than 4Ghz anyway ;D18:43
DocScrutinizer51so your policy set should handle that for you18:43
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SwedeMikeShadowJK_: you actually get 234kbit/s regularily on 2G? I only get that in our lab :P18:44
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SwedeMikeeven though EDGE is a huge step up from non-edge :P18:44
ShadowJK_well 24500 bytes/sec :P18:44
ShadowJK_Yes, regulary18:44
DocScrutinizer51ShadowJK_: quite simple gpodder should use another network device than the rest18:45
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DocScrutinizer51the gpoder network device shall enable 3G while the other device will try to keep things on 2G18:46
ShadowJK_Or I could monitor traffic on gprs0 and send the signal on dbus to switch to Dual mode if it sits peaked at 24500 for a while ;p18:47
DocScrutinizer51that's what network devices are meant for18:47
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DocScrutinizer51ShadowJK_: that's one of the extended policies to implement in netfilters18:48
ShadowJK_on my old Nokia E75 I could hold 3 gprs connections simultaneously, all with its own public IP :D18:48
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VenemoMohammadAG: ping19:06
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RST38hGNOME To Lose Minimize, Maximize Buttons19:22
* RST38h politely asks the Tentacled One to lunch on some people19:23
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lcukRST38h, it *might* be ok, but for as long as this bug exists it will frustrate people19:25
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lcuk(if they need to double click title bar to make it work)19:25
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GAN900I haven't used a maximize button in about 5 years.19:26
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GAN900Minimize maybe a bit less than that.19:27
RST38hI use minimize buttons though19:27
GAN900Maximize is a Windows button19:27
GAN900Doesn't Microsoft have a shortcut for that?19:27
Sc0rpiushe's talking about GNOME19:27
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GAN900Sc0rpius, yes, I understand, but RST38h uses Windows.19:28
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lcukGAN900, ? he upgraded?  last I heard RST38h was still on DOS 5.019:28
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Sc0rpiusdid you see that video upgrading from DOS5.0 to every Windows released but Me?19:30
lcukSc0rpius, yeah19:30
lcukit was cool19:30
Sc0rpiusyeah pretty cool :)19:30
Sc0rpiusfor those who didn't watch it:
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* RST38h moos evilly at javispedro19:48
javispedromoo RST38h19:48
user_anyone know of a 7" ARM tablet with a resistve screen that has a bit more resources than a smartq?19:49
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user_meego on archos it now that's a possibility19:53
user_not 7" but better than n900 for work19:54
ds3build your own19:55
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RST38hHmmm, Android has got viruses19:56
RST38hWhat happened to the supposedly "safe" Java environment?19:57
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user_RST38h: lol20:02
user_ds3: thanks for the advice?20:03
DocScrutinizerRST38h: do you think I CBA to repeat my rant in #meego for the 794th time? No way dude, it's been lcuk who thought he can lure me in by pointing me to a bug where they work on power management for >6 months now. I'm still not interested in meego though, as for me a RE'd and FOSS'ed maemo is the better OS than meego every day. And my rant about N950 was just to show the aimless effort in meego, regarding what *I* expect from a handheld OS &20:03
RST38hDoc: Man, you have worked on OpenMoko, nobody can doubt your FOSS priorities after that :)20:04
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DocScrutinizertbh I prefer a maemo with closed bits over a meego with missing bits and rotten foundation and targeted to mimic iPhone rather than trying to become a viable NIT20:06
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GAN900It's alway good when the former police chief goes to the funeral of the guy who killed two cops, but not the cops'.20:07
DocScrutinizerI'd rather port maemo4/diablo to N900 than try to live with meego handset UX, to state an exaggerated one20:08
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DocScrutinizersome nerds invented a UX and claim that's what everybody has to like on his next NIT. I beg to differ20:10
GAN900I guess we'll see what it actually looks like when it's actually usable.20:11
DocScrutinizeron my metrics that's never then20:11
GAN900we'll see20:12
* GAN900 ever the optimist20:12
VenemoDocScrutinizer: "targeted to mimic iPhone"20:12
VenemoDocScrutinizer: don't confuse the UX with the OS20:12
GAN900Guy just called asking for a book: "Smallest Programming Language in the World"20:13
DocScrutinizerI simply don't get the rationale in adopting a new buggy OS with a mickey mouse UX targeted to what hw exactly? A N950 that comes with a crappy c-ts? NAH!20:13
GAN900I wanted to ask: "What is Brainfuck?"20:13
javispedroRST38h: Android. Sigh.20:13
VenemoDocScrutinizer: what's c-ts?20:13
lcukDocScrutinizer, I was not trying to lure you in, but merely pointing out where you observed no attention had been paid that there infact was and is20:13
DocScrutinizercapacitive touchscren20:13
* lcuk will shush though20:13
GAN900javispedro, iknorite?20:14
javispedroToday our beloved *oid Android emulator guy violated the GPL again. everyone applauded.20:14
VenemoDocScrutinizer: ah.20:14
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javispedroandroid open? my ass.20:14
lcukDocScrutinizer, MeeGo UX that everyone saw at first was console only20:14
lcukthat is not mickey mouse :P20:14
GAN900Android is a pernicious disease.20:14
VenemoDocScrutinizer: well, that's what the consumers prefer. me or you maybe not, but we're not the target audience with whom they can make money20:15
DocScrutinizerall the details about taskswitcher to sketches of desktop are mickey mouse though20:15
VenemoDocScrutinizer: I agree with your thoughts on MeeGo handset UX20:15
VenemoDocScrutinizer: this is why people are porting hildon-desktop to MeeGo20:15
DocScrutinizeruseless effort. For N950? For N900 even??20:16
* lcuk wonders what the DocScrutinizer UX would look and feel like.20:16
VenemoDocScrutinizer: smoku runs it on his ideapad currently :)20:16
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lcukDocScrutinizer, you are very focused on MeeGo == one or two devices20:17
VenemoDocScrutinizer: I don't know anything about an "N950" either, but most likely I'm not going to be one of its buyers.20:17
DocScrutinizerlcuk: not really. You just say that to make me contribute to a stillborn project20:17
lcukMeeGo is buildable on a wide range of things20:17
lcukDocScrutinizer, not at all20:17
lcuki hear you moaning in lots of places but less of what you would actually like!20:17
lcukyes, you want a tablet/phone thingy, but what should it look like20:18
lcukwhat should it act like20:18
DocScrutinizerlike diablo, with a few hildon/fremantle aigments. It's just fine for me20:18
lcukhave you tried building hildon diablo on fremantle device?20:19
lcukie Maemo 4 us ontop of Maemo520:19
DocScrutinizerthe fremantle taskswitcher is actually bearable with MHD and tab-emu20:19
lcukit is all OSS20:19
VenemoDocScrutinizer: what are MHD and tab-emu?20:20
DocScrutinizerthe meego taskswitcher... oh my last I heard it's wose than windows20:20
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VenemoDocScrutinizer, again, the UX is not equal to the OS.20:20
DocScrutinizerVenemo: I'm well aware of that. The OS is rotten on some of the foundatin blocks though, as it's been architected by x86 centric laptop dudes, not embedded folks20:21
VenemoDocScrutinizer: so, if you are an embedded folk, why don't you step up and help them?20:22
lcukI remember when CmdrTaco slated the ipod20:22
lcuk"No wireless. Less space than a nomad. Lame."20:22
DocScrutinizerVenemo: because that'20:22
DocScrutinizernot appreciated and often received as insult20:22
VenemoDocScrutinizer, -> Ctrl+F -> no results for MHD nor tab-emu20:22
DocScrutinizerand honestly I don't see meego in my future live, no matter if I contribute or not20:23
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VenemoDocScrutinizer: if someone can help MeeGo get it right, it's you20:23
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DocScrutinizer## new: with ctrl-BS for nice taskswitching, see20:24
DocScrutinizer## and video20:24
Venemooh, that!20:24
Venemoyeah, I find that nice too :)20:24
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DocScrutinizerlife* ^^^20:24
Venemosorry, I didn't know you meant this :)20:25
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Venemoso DocScrutinizer, what would be your preferred mobile OS?20:25
* javispedro fires up disas, let's see which versions did this guy use20:26
* lcuk boots Workbench 1.320:26
javispedromorning pupnik_20:26
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Venemohey pupnik_20:26
DocScrutinizerVenemo: no, meego product specs and UX guidelines have been writtten in stone when those Nokia and Intel dudes sat together in a bar and sketched the system on a papertowel after 7 beers. Now everybody is "free to add patches, after we finished initial version <of a arbitrary subsystem completely unsuited for the purpose>"20:26
VenemoDocScrutinizer: UX guidelines are for the official UXes.20:27
DocScrutinizerVenemo: meego is boring me, sorry. full stop.20:27
lcukDocScrutinizer, everything starts out like that.20:28
VenemoDocScrutinizer: anyway, which is a free software-based mobile OS that you would prefer?20:28
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DocScrutinizerI'd rather go with raster's *nix than meego20:28
* javispedro reads DocScrutinizer comments and remembers his own comments when the N900 was about to come =)20:28
javispedro(yet the N900 came, and while I started partially porting the diablo UI, never really felt the complete need)20:29
lcukGAN900 don't you laugh :P you once said something about never using a device with a phone on it :P20:29
javispedro*the need to complete it ;)20:29
GAN900Change is hard.20:29
GAN900Especially when change comes to a prosthetic limb. :P20:30
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: you must be confusing me with somebody else. I joined "the maemo community" not earlier than 1 month after I ordered my N900, afair20:30
javispedroaw sorry, third person failure.20:30
javispedrothat "his" was /me.20:31
DocScrutinizeraah sorry, me got it wrong20:31
javispedrowe need more pronouns for irc =)20:31
* lcuk squeezes the flaps on an engine to try and prise it open20:33
javispedro yet another Hildon UI over Meego project20:34
javispedroDocScrutinizer^^ ;)20:34
RST38hThe correct usage is ",self"20:34
RST38hjavispedro: this project will come to nothing20:35
javispedro(as usually)20:36
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RST38hsmoku's project actually has good chances of success20:36
javispedroI have one gripe with it20:37
javispedrohe did not start from the maemo patched gtk+20:37
Venemojavispedro: why the hell did they start doing this, when smoku already has the work 90% done?20:38
javispedro(90% of the work is not h-d only, please also consider the rest of Hildon)20:38
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user_right using irssi on n900 isn't so easy be back20:39
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javispedrounless all you want is the window manager ;)20:40
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javispedro"Gnome removes maximize/minimize window controls"20:41
Venemojavispedro: hildon libs work on it afaik :)20:41
RST38hyou too20:42
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javispedroVenemo: didn't find the source then20:44
Venemojavispedro: of what?20:44
javispedromodified libhildon20:44
javispedroI'm not sure if a unchanged one works without the patched gtk+20:45
javispedroRST38h: now wait until "Gnome removes all controls".20:45
Venemojavispedro: well, afaik it uses the Hildon lib in MeeGo's repo. also, Smoku's stuff is in MeeGo's OBS, and the OpenSuse packages are here: ask smoku about it on #cordia if you want to know more20:46
RST38hjavispedro: ...and extra mouse buttona20:46
javispedroVenemo: ok, so then he's virtually done =)20:47
javispedrothough still %configure --with-maemo-gtk=no :(20:47
javispedrothere's a lot of problems when doing for example input method stuff (which you know I'd like to get) without the patched gtk+ :P20:48
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DocScrutinizerVenemo: btw SHR on N900 is progressing nicely20:48
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javispedro(_unless_ he plans to reuse hildon-input-method, which would be nice but probably against the spirit of meego...)20:49
GAN900javispedro, I can't wait for telepathic computers.20:49
javispedro(and even then you will need the patched gtk+ =) )20:49
Venemojavispedro: smoku's project uses vanilla Gtk20:50
javispedroGAN900: I guess Gnome's plan is to remove all user interface elements in order to spur such computing revolution.20:50
VenemoDocScrutinizer: SHR=?20:50
DocScrutinizer SHR: http://shr-project.org20:50
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javispedroVenemo: I know he uses vanilla gtk+, that's what I was ranting about ;P20:51
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Venemojavispedro: why is that a problem?20:51
VenemoDocScrutinizer: -> so this isn't mimicing iphone at all20:51
javispedroVenemo: maemo application compatibility, and some input method hooks.20:52
DocScrutinizerVenemo: for SHR the UX != system argument applies 100%20:52
VenemoDocScrutinizer:  :):)20:52
Venemojavispedro, libhildon is there for maemo app compatibility20:53
Evanescencewhere to download maemo system ? i want to install maemo on my mobile20:53
javispedroVenemo: apps expect stuff from Gtk+. Like the Hildon icon sizes, etc.20:53
lcuknot all apps.20:53
javispedrospecially not plain gtk+ apps ;)20:54
Venemojavispedro: hildon iconsizes are there in libhildon, aren't they?20:54
VenemoEvanescence: you can't20:54
DocScrutinizerVenemo: for sure SHR - being a spinoff of OE - has quite some quirks as well, but it has a much nicer system architecture and esp it has a nicer community without decisions made behind walls like in meego20:54
VenemoDocScrutinizer: doesn't seem to be very detailed20:56
DocScrutinizerI'll still stay with maemo for the foreseeable future. Just mentioning it to prove there's other alternatives than just meego20:56
RST38hjavispedro: I suspect you should simply discuss it with smoku, that should be enough20:56
EvanescenceVenemo: the maemo does not support download link ?20:56
VenemoEvanescence: Maemo is for the Nokia internet tablets and the Nokia N900 mobile computer20:56
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javispedroRST38h: I do not want to force more work on him so far, though, which is what this is as he won't be able to reuse the meego gtk.20:57
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EvanescenceVenemo: so that after i installed ubuntu on N900, i can not install maemo again ?20:58
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divanIs it possible to use valgrind on N900? It was annouced ARM support some time ago, and now I see the package valgrind-3.6.0 in repository, but it doesn't contain any binaries.20:59
RST38hjavispedro: As long as he knows that the issue needs fixing, he will get to it, eventually20:59
javispedroVenemo: yes, the icon sizes are actually defined in libhildon -- however the rest are not, like the tree view changes (just grep apt-get source libgtk2.0-dev for MAEMO_CHANGES and you will get a list)21:00
VenemoEvanescence: oh, you're looking for something else then21:01
infobotit has been said that flashing is
VenemoEvanescence: look at that link21:01
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EvanescenceVenemo: yeah, thank you21:02
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divanjavispedro, hi. I've found solution for broken avcodec issue - I can symlink libstub to libavcodec in the game's directory, but I need to add '.' dir to LD_LIBRARY_PATH. I can do it via .desktop file, but maybe worth adding it to
javispedrosecurity risk =)21:03
javispedroeither way...21:03
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javispedroare there any more games using that library?21:03
divanDon't know, I'm going to check the rest next few days, cause I've finished with installer.21:04
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javispedroif there aren't, I might do the symlink thing.21:20
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divanjavispedro, I believe it's Avatar-specific issue, but such situation may occur with other games and other libraries. Just an assumption.21:24
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javispedroor the _opposite_ might happen.21:25
divanWhat is opposite in this context?21:26
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javispedrorequires a real implementation of ffmpeg21:37
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SpeedEvilI compiled ffmpeg, and it worked21:38
SpeedEvilOr am Iimagining stuff again.21:38
SpeedEvilyeah - I compiled it - itwas simple21:40
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SpeedEvilffplay is lots more complex thoguh21:40
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javispedroyes -- the issue at hand is still the same as yesterday; some game seems not to like our extras build.21:43
SpeedEvilSorry -0 I wasn'treading context21:46
ShadowJK_lots of stuff disabled in the extras build?21:53
javispedroit seems to play ogg files fine...21:53
SpeedEvilI dunno.21:53
ShadowJK_although I vaguely remember mru fixed some neon bugs a few months after extra-codecs or whatever it was that originally pulled in ffmpeg came21:54
SpeedEvilI just installed gcc in a chroot, and built it.21:54
SpeedEvilAnd it worked.21:54
SpeedEvilAt least for what I was wanting it for.21:54
javispedroit could be virtually anything, even, maybe they changed the library interface and didn't bump soname, or something21:54
* SpeedEvil is a bear of very little brain.21:54
ShadowJK_They have a pretty struct api version policy, but users of it mostly ignore it :)21:55
ShadowJK_Which version did you compile, SpeedEvil?21:57
* DocScrutinizer yawns21:57
* SpeedEvil wonders if he has a copy.21:58
SpeedEvilIt would have been whatever was stable 9 months or so ago.21:58
ShadowJK_they have a stable svn/git policy :P21:59
SpeedEvil2010-09-11.115451+0100BST.txt:(12:12:46 PM) SpeedEvil: nandan: There is a complex answer - and there is
ShadowJK_the "release" is just snapshots taken by some debian dude whenever he feels like it21:59
SpeedEvilAh - no - nuked that21:59
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GAN900RST38h, when do we get networking synching across multiple devices out of FBReader? :P22:03
* SpeedEvil drops rsync on GAN900.22:05
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GAN900Yeah, I've thought about that a couple of times.22:08
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trumeeDocScrutinizer: buggy stun in N900?,
DocScrutinizertrumee: how did you know I was about to edit my NAT config this very moment?22:17
trumeeDocScrutinizer: telepathy :p22:18
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DocScrutinizertrumee: looks strange. is not stunserver.org22:19
trumeeDocScrutinizer: so any idea how it could be fixed without disabling rebind attack protection in the router22:19
DocScrutinizertrumee: sorry - I fail to understand the nature of the problem22:20
trumeeDocScrutinizer: is certainly not, but ping is resolving to
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DocScrutinizerNFC, possibly ALG in router22:21
DocScrutinizerI can't decode that 3 lines to make a proper error description out of that22:22
Sc0rpiuswell they defined in the DNS zone as to force people to use a complete server name22:22
Sc0rpiusnslookup in any computer in the world will resolve as
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Sc0rpiusI fail to see why that suprises people22:22
trumeeSc0rpius: my openwrt router is moaning about it22:23
DocScrutinizerorly?! ;-O22:23
Sc0rpiusyou're not supposed to use that's a loopback name22:23
Sc0rpiusthey force you to use a complete domain name22:23
Sc0rpiusI mean they do that on purpose22:23
Sc0rpiusso you HAVE to use whatever.stunserver.org22:24
trumeeSc0rpius: does that mean N900 has hardcoded it incorrectly?22:24
Sc0rpiusI don't think it's hardcoded since you can use your own server22:24
DocScrutinizerwell, I don't see who and why is using
Sc0rpiushe's talking about using stun in N90022:25
DocScrutinizerthere's a config option in advanced settings of SIP "use automatic STUN detection"22:25
* trumee suspects that automatic setting uses stunserver.org22:26
Robot101it doesn't22:26
Sc0rpiusthen uncheck that22:26
Sc0rpiusand type a STUN server and port22:26
Robot101it makes a SRV request and most likely will fail to find anything22:26
DocScrutinizerif the whateveritscalled entry in DNS has no proper STUN service for the SIP provider domain, then automatic might fall back to :-P22:26
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trumeeRobot101: good to see you22:26
trumeeRobot101: so why is openwrt moaning about it?22:27
DocScrutinizerI suggest to manually config proper settings for stun server in N900 and disable automatic detection22:27
Sc0rpiusI suggest that too22:27
Robot101yeah, you can use stun.telepathy.im22:27
Sc0rpiusand there are zillion of public STUN servers22:27
DocScrutinizeraaaah SRV - yes thatsitcalled22:27
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trumeeright, going to use that22:27
Robot101SIP servers are meant to use SRV to define their STUN server but really, happens very rarely22:27
DocScrutinizertrumee: is local, it's no valid IP22:28
trumeeDocScrutinizer: doesnt exist on my network actually22:28
Sc0rpiusoh come on22:28
* Sc0rpius shoots himself22:29
* trumee is going to get rid of the automatic stun setting22:29
Sc0rpiusyou even pasted this:22:29
Sc0rpius64 bytes from icmp_seq=1 ttl=255 time=0.556 ms22:29
Sc0rpiusit's obvious is the LAN IP of your "OpenWRT" router22:29
Sc0rpiusyour default gateway22:29
trumeeSc0rpius: oops!, i was using somebodys else network to try that out :p22:30
Sc0rpiusthen that IP is the default gateway or the router IP of somebody elses22:30
trumeeSc0rpius: yesssss22:30
Sc0rpiusanyway don't pay attention to that22:30
Sc0rpiusjust set a STUN server manually22:30
DocScrutinizerRobot101: could you help me out about how to query SRV record in DNS?22:30
DocScrutinizer...on cmdline22:30
Sc0rpiusset query=srv22:30
DocScrutinizerin host? dig?22:31
Sc0rpiusset query=srv<enter>22:31<enter>22:31
Sc0rpiusI'm old, I never got used to dig/host22:32
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DocScrutinizermeh, nslookup, what a PITA22:32
DocScrutinizernever used that - LOL22:32
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Sc0rpiushow did you resolve before host then?22:32
Sc0rpiushost is fairly new22:32
Sc0rpiusI mean how did you resolve then back in 1985?22:33
DocScrutinizernot at all?22:33
DocScrutinizerthere's been few intenets in 1985 that I could use22:33
DocScrutinizeriirc it's been datex-p back then22:34
DocScrutinizerand 2400bd accoustic couplers22:34
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Sc0rpiusthose were the times22:35
Sc0rpiusFTP was so slow and connection timeouts were so frequent that there was an FTP via email service22:35
Sc0rpiusyou send an email with all ftp commands to a "powerful" server22:35
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Sc0rpiusthen hours later you received an email with all the output22:36
Sc0rpiusif you downloaded a file, it was uuencoded22:36
Sc0rpiusit was nice22:36
DocScrutinizerand a lot of "big irons" had a unix with a guest/guest user that had full access to the machine :-P22:37
DocScrutinizerand even accepted datex-p R connections22:37
* DocScrutinizer idly wonders if there's been DNS at that time :-P22:38
villagerif you don't like nslookup, you could always use host -t srv <domain>...22:40
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Sc0rpiusthat was nothing22:40
Sc0rpiusyou could telnet computers, BBS systems for example22:40
Sc0rpiusand be quick and press Ctrl-C when the banner was shown22:41
Sc0rpiusand had root22:41
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DocScrutinizervillager: I'm just trying both, but seem to recall e.g. actually supports stun SRV, but under a special URL like _stun.sipgate.de22:52
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DocScrutinizerI can't recall how to build that special name from the SIP server basename22:52
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DocScrutinizerwas hoping o find sth in RFC3489 but no luck22:58
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DocScrutinizerhost -v -t SRV _stun._udp.sipgate.de23:03
DocScrutinizer ;; ANSWER SECTION:23:03
DocScrutinizer 13995 IN SRV 0 0 3478
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ZogG_laptopVenemo, hey23:06
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pupnikDocScrutinizer: are you using their free service ?23:18
DocScrutinizerwell, free as in no monthly fee, no charges for inbound call, yes23:18
DocScrutinizerworks mostly fine23:19
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DocScrutinizerbut I read sth about above quoted SRV record has a wrong 3478 port in it, while the suggested port on their website is 10.00023:20
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DocScrutinizernot that I really know to read SRV records of DNS23:21
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niala1can i ask, what did you use to synchronize maemo locally, without clouds network?23:24
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DocScrutinizerpupnik: anyway using that sipgate geographic phone number since ~5 years now, mostly just works23:28
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pupnikty DocScrutinizer23:36
pupnikovi mail switching to yahoo! mail .. "Sie erklären sich damit einverstanden, dass Yahoo! mittels eines technisch automatisierten Prozesses Inhalte wie Wörter, Links, Personen und Betreffzeilen Ihrer E-Mail-Nachrichten und anderer Nachrichten (einschließlich IM- und SMS-Nachrichten) prüft, um zu erfahren, was für Sie wichtig ist und Ihnen verbesserte Dienste und relevantere Werbung anzubieten."23:37
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DocScrutinizeryahoo always been more *evil* than even google23:38
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DocScrutinizerNokia sold his soul to the hoofed one long before the Elopocalypse23:40
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Venemohello ZogG_laptop23:41
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pupnikbut you can see it's just an evolutionary / market maxima23:41
pupnikor 'attractor'23:41
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pupnik.. making the most economic use out of the service of passing user data23:41
ZogG_laptopVenemo i was thinking23:42
ZogG_laptopi don't need to learn boost23:42
DocScrutinizersure, while implicitly selecting their user base for those who are numb enough to not care about spying their mails, so probably also most susceptible to commercal adds23:43
ZogG_laptopit's just usd in library23:44
ZogG_laptopnot for my code23:44
ZogG_laptopso i might rewrite it into c++23:44
DocScrutinizeranyway, they tested cherry on us, not they go for the full treat23:45
DocScrutinizers/ not / now /23:45
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: anyway, they tested cherry on us, now they go for the full treat23:45
pupnik"gesetzlichen Recht Gebrauch gemacht haben, dieser Nutzung Ihrer Daten zu widersprechen."23:46
* DocScrutinizer is happy to never have used Nokia mail23:46
pupnikAußerdem werten wir ggf. Nutzungsprofile unter einem Pseudonym (das nicht mit den Daten in Ihrem Account zusammengeführt werden kann) zur Werbung, Marktforschung und Verbesserung der Yahoo! Dienste aus, soweit Sie nicht von Ihrem gesetzlichen Recht Gebrauch gemacht haben, dieser Nutzung Ihrer Daten zu widersprechen.23:46
VenemoZogG_laptop: as long as it works, do as you wish :)23:47
* GAN900 feels left out.23:48
ZogG_laptopVenemo, i would like you to help me to do it in C anyway23:48
VenemoZogG_laptop: okay :)23:49
VenemoZogG_laptop, my weekend appears to be quite busy though, so I can't do it right now23:49
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DocScrutinizerjust incidentally those succers sent me an "invitation" or some similar shit two ddays ago, somebody wants to follow me or whatever. Damn I had to create that account for twinkle forum on yahoo, and they got a true mail addr to forward that shit to23:49
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DocScrutinizerbarbie santacruce wants to connect with you on Yahoo! ---- Von: "Yahoo!" <>23:51
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ZogG_laptopVenemo, talk to me, as i don't find any way except glib and i don't fully understand the best way to do it23:52
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ZogG_laptoplardman|home, ping23:58
pupniklol DocScrutinizer23:58

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