IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2011-01-22

mtnbkr	anyone know of any other "smart" phones that have Native SIP support like maemo on N900 does? Such as HTC EVO? Got an Asterisk system here and a worker with an HTC Evo, looking for options, or another phone for him	00:00
ieatlint	i beleive some symbian phones do	00:00
MohammadAG	the N95 did	00:01
MohammadAG	and the E66	00:01
jacekowski	symbian phones	00:01
jacekowski	and n900	00:01
MohammadAG	I think the N86 has it too	00:01
jacekowski	nothing from any other manufacturer	00:01
jacekowski	and sip sucks	00:01
MohammadAG	lol	00:01
mtnbkr	so, hisHTC EVO will need the sipdroid app as I have been sseing then, or he needs a new phone lol	00:02
ieatlint	you came in here to ask how to get sip support on your [friend's] android phone? :P	00:02
mtnbkr	ieatlint: lol	00:02
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mtnbkr	and/or to find out if I need to buy him an N900	00:03
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pahartik	mtnbkr: There is no IPv6 support in SIP client provided by Maemo 5	00:06
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Pauly	MohammadAG: i can take screenshots!	00:11
trumee	mtnbkr, sip is horrible on N900	00:12
trumee	jacekowski, sucks on N900 but awesome on N95	00:12
shamus	sip is not that bad on the n800 but still bad	00:12
Pauly	i forgot how 2 take scrrenshots shift ctrl p?	00:12
trumee	mtnbkr, sip calls is very choppy on N900	00:12
jacekowski	sip sucks	00:13
trumee	jacekowski, on N900 it does	00:13
shamus	amen sip by it's very nature on the protical levle sucks	00:13
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MohammadAG	Pauly, I know the font is different, sure it's the S60 one?	00:13
trumee	shamus, dont care about protocol level. but its implementations on N900 is shitty	00:14
shamus	crapy protocols == crapy clients?	00:14
trumee	Nokia and its partners didnt do a very good job, lcuk ^^	00:14
shamus	yeah yeah sip is every where but it hates nats	00:15
shamus	sip hates my network like the pleg	00:15
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trumee	shamus, there are ways to sort out nat	00:15
shamus	port forwarding?	00:16
trumee	shamus, stun server	00:16
ShadowJK	if the network makes you constantly switch between 3g and 3.5g, a ping running in the background with suitable size and interval will force it on 3.5 :)	00:16
ShadowJK	The thresholds some operators use for upgrading you to 3.5 are kinda close to the tiny amount SIP uses for voice..	00:17
DocScrutinizer	aiui there's no such thing like switching to 3.5	00:17
ShadowJK	there is a 1500msec burst of latency when it does switch :-)	00:18
ShadowJK	(operator dependent)	00:18
pahartik	trumee: Best way to solve "NAT problem" is to throw IPv4 away	00:18
DocScrutinizer	it's like 3g is the established call and 3.5 gets signalled whenever you shout loud enough	00:19
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DocScrutinizer	or technically, 3.5 is a dynamic property of 3G, not a new connection mode	00:20
* shamus is stuck with ipv4 as dam isp refiueses to upgrade to ipv6 and even if they did out cable modem probly is not compatable		00:20
lcuk	trumee, ?	00:21
Pauly	<MohammadAG>	00:21
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* shamus has never been able to make a sip call from the home network. i can use sip just fine at school but not at home		00:22
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trumee	lcuk, collabora needs to do some thorough testing of sip on N900	00:23
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trumee	shamus, nat issues?	00:24
MohammadAG	yes?	00:24
MohammadAG	alterego, ping	00:24
shamus	yeah thats my guess	00:24
Pauly	sry noob question cant find default scratchbox location trying to show screenshot?	00:24
Pauly	saved in sdk	00:24
MohammadAG	achipa, who's decision was it to remove the skip packaging step? :)	00:24
ShadowJK	of the 3 network operators here, latency in 3g (plain wcdma, network has decided it's not worth to have you on hsdpa): 268, 272, 295. Minimum amount of data to provoke upgrade from WCDMA to HSPA: 498, 255, 32. Amount of idle time on HSPA before downgrade to WCDMA, seconds: 8, 3, 5. Latency at switchover wcdma -> hsdpa: 1290, 880, 1210 ms	00:24
MohammadAG	/scratchbox/users/username/home/user/	00:25
ShadowJK	and latency on hspa: 63, 72, 148	00:25
trumee	shamus, define a stun server in N900	00:25
MohammadAG	I know the font is different	00:25
MohammadAG	you don't have to show me a screenshot	00:25
achipa	MohammadAG: Ididntdoit... but honestly, no idea - I'm not happy with those 'don't X before Y' options that are supposed to (but don't quite) replace that stuff	00:25
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bash`	hi guys	00:26
* shamus has a stun autodetect enableds and it dose not work		00:26
Pauly	<MohammadAG: oh ok any idea why	00:26
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bash`	I need to install rootsh without root access :P how to do it?	00:26
MohammadAG	nope	00:26
trumee	shamus, i never had issues with nat over wifi or 3g. but i run my own * server	00:26
MohammadAG	application manager	00:26
ShadowJK	The bigger wakeup threshold (498 bytes) for my operator means that N900 stays on WCDMA most of the time if I just have irc going.. though if irc is very active it'll go into hspa and eat 300 - 400 mA for a minimum 8seconds after last activity:(	00:26
Pauly	id like for the the real n900 to use the s60 font for browser any idea how?	00:27
MohammadAG	or set R&D mode	00:27
bash`	my friend has a n900 without internet access, but with the rootsh.deb file	00:27
MohammadAG	click on the file	00:27
MohammadAG	with the file manager	00:27
bash`	really it works?	00:27
MohammadAG	should	00:27
bash`	trying now	00:27
* shamus has no acess to the house router to adjust settings and has not set up a stun server		00:27
MohammadAG	if that doesn't work, there's always red pill mode	00:27
trumee	shamus, you can use public stun servers	00:27
DocScrutinizer	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsdpa	00:28
* shamus has tryed the ekiga one and no joy		00:28
trumee	shamus, there is quite a big list at voip-info.org	00:28
shamus	ok	00:28
bash`	MohammadAG: thank you very much :)	00:28
MohammadAG	it worked?	00:28
bash`	yes	00:28
MohammadAG	and yw :)	00:28
MohammadAG	:)	00:29
MohammadAG	achipa, I'm back on 2.0, editing the control and changelog files doesn't change the deb name	00:29
trumee	shamus, worst performance i have found is two N900s talking to each other	00:29
trumee	shamus, with * in between	00:30
ShadowJK	DocScrutinizer, hey if the radio protocol doesn't require you to stay in wcdma most of the time, or enforce the high latency burst when switching to hspa, or enforce the gigantic energy consumption when in hspa mode with low latency available, then by all means go make a modem that works like that :P	00:30
ShadowJK	In the meanwhile I'm just saying what I myself have observed and what others have observed of how these modems work :P	00:30
MohammadAG	qt creator will try to copy it from somewhere else, and of course, fail	00:30
achipa	MohammadAG: ? not sure how that's possible... maybe it gets overwritten ? there is now this smart versioning (=UI) in the run config...	00:30
achipa	don't ask why run builds packages...	00:31
ShadowJK	There even exists scripts for 3g routers that automatically try to discover the minimum amount of traffic required to maintain hspa, so that you can click a button on the web interface and activate low latency for your skype and what not :)	00:31
MohammadAG	achipa, I know, I edited the files through there, it still looks for the old name	00:31
MohammadAG	it should read control file, not project name	00:31
Pauly	MohammadAG; DocScrutinizer: thanks guys you always help me with my noobish questions i know im not a real developer or anything close but i am learning things and one day when i know enough i will be but thanks 4 everything	00:32
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achipa	agreed, but... madde should do just that	00:32
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achipa	i.e. it's still debtools deep down in it's ravaged and soon to be rpmified soul...	00:33
MohammadAG	Pauly, you're welcome	00:33
MohammadAG	achipa, true, but it's Qt Creator running steps, not MADDE	00:34
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Pauly	MohammadAG: i think im in here almost everyday asking something stupid lol	00:34
MohammadAG	you don't wanna read logs to see what I used to ask	00:35
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Pauly	MohammadAG: well i usally read the wiki and search forums or google before i come to ask something on here i was suprised that i acually compiled a qt app and it ran on n900! nevr done anything like that :)	00:37
achipa	MohammadAG: it's a weird mix :) in any case, if you feel it's a bug, poke me on monday... can't look at it right now	00:37
achipa	also didn't forget about the merge request, just was a busy day :S	00:38
MohammadAG	no worries	00:38
achipa	(hope to have some docs on how to direct-deploy in the FN wiki next week)	00:38
MohammadAG	Pauly, you'll learn a lot - if you want to :)	00:38
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MohammadAG	I know I did, thanks to the community	00:38
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: so the modem needs a lick to switch to 3.5? that's new to me	00:39
DocScrutinizer	kick*	00:39
ShadowJK	It depends on the operator	00:39
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DocScrutinizer	that's even more strange	00:39
DocScrutinizer	I alwys thought the modem enters 3.5 mode automatically	00:40
ShadowJK	Mine needs 498 bytes before switching. Another one needs 32 (so that's basically just any traffic at all)	00:40
MohammadAG	a lick might work too	00:40
MohammadAG	has to be acidic though	00:40
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* MohammadAG sits back - gets popcorn - gets ready to read N9 rumor thread		00:40
ShadowJK	in 3.5 mode my N900 eats massive amounts of power even for the 8 seconds or so of no data moving before it goes down to wcdma	00:41
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ShadowJK	if data got moved through wcdma instead of hsdpa, the power consumption is smaller and goes down to "idle" faster too	00:42
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jacekowski	you can probably cook popcorn on n900 that's OCed and in 3.5G	00:42
MohammadAG	popcorn? pfft, steak ftw	00:43
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pupnik	leave an irc client running while playing emulators on a train...	00:44
jacekowski	rotfl	00:45
pupnik	:)	00:45
jacekowski	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_cKTw8cB78&feature=player_embedded	00:45
jacekowski	hellium "overdose"	00:45
pupnik	we are wasting helium in a criminal way right now	00:45
shamus	im guesign i have a symmetric NAT	00:45
MohammadAG	o_O	00:45
MohammadAG	at least she fell in a good way	00:46
kerio	wtf does that mean	00:46
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DocScrutinizer	aiui the BTS is free to allow the modem to use a special channel ( HS-DSCH (High Speed Downlink Shared Channel)) and the MT has to send Channel Quality Indicator, CQI frequently. That's why 3(.5)G keeps eating power for several seconds, even when not sending or rcvng data	00:46
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MohammadAG	she didn't hit her head :p	00:46
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ShadowJK	Oh I thought that was just the cdma part of it	00:47
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shamus	ok that might be part of my issue i had two routers bother with nat enabled and was on the iner most one	00:51
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shamus	nope still nota no luck conecting to sip	00:53
DocScrutinizer	shamus: NAT and SIP don't play together nicely, without additional force. You frequently need STUN, and often even that's not enough and your SIP-carrier needs to provide hosted NAT traversal	00:53
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DocScrutinizer	(or whatever it's called)	00:53
shamus	yey sip and nat == pain in the ass even with stun	00:54
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DocScrutinizer	depemds on the NAT. STUN usually works great for all but symmetric NAT (aka IP and port aware NAT), and it detects sym NAT reliably	00:55
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Rapak	Hello	00:55
shamus	semtric ugh	00:55
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shamus	and i think the home router is not set up for port awareness	00:56
Rapak	I have a problem with my N900 and I would appreciate some help. I was sending a sms when my touch screen just froze. I restarted the phone but the problem stays. I can't set my lock code. The question is how can I access the phones memory trough computer? I would love to have my contacts etc out from the phone.	00:57
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shamus	it's a stock wtr45g v2 but i cant change the settings on it as it has been password protected and i have no clue how it's set up	00:59
DocScrutinizer	shamus: some routers are set up not to allow local loopback, means a pkg addressed to the public IP of the NAT from LAN won't go back to the corresponding IP:port of LAN	00:59
shamus	ahh	01:00
DocScrutinizer	it that case STUN detects a sym NAT even though there isn't - technically	01:00
ShadowJK	wrt54g needs the occasional reboot too	01:00
shamus	no were near as often as the dam helken	01:01
* shamus is conecting to the belkin wifi router witch is hooked up to the same network as the wrt45g witch is hooked up to the cable modem		01:02
DocScrutinizer	shamus: e.g ZyXEL routers do this	01:02
MohammadAG	wrt54g owners run stock?	01:02
MohammadAG	seriously? it's a hacker's router :p	01:03
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DocScrutinizer	you can switch that shit off (enable local loopback) via telnet - for ZyXEL	01:03
shamus	i know but it's my dads	01:03
shamus	and he passowred protected it	01:03
MohammadAG	pin + pin hole = win	01:03
DocScrutinizer	moh loves to talk gibberish	01:04
DocScrutinizer	:-P	01:04
shamus	pin + pin hole == wooping joking but still he is very anil when it come to netowrk setup	01:04
psycho_oreos	make a deal with him so that you paid for his router and is legally yours and he gets to choose a router of equivalent price	01:04
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MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, it's the settings reset hole	01:04
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MohammadAG	clears password	01:05
DocScrutinizer	shamus: see if UPnP is enabled	01:05
shamus	doubt ity prity sure i tryed that already	01:05
shamus	the firmwere has not been updated in years if ever	01:05
MohammadAG	E7 looks sexy	01:06
shamus	so tempted to shove a hombrewe firm were on on as tell dad to bite me	01:06
psycho_oreos	shamus, make a deal with him so that you paid for his router and is legally yours and he gets to choose a router of equivalent price	01:06
MohammadAG	heh	01:06
DocScrutinizer	aaah - btw: many routers have an ALG, an Application Layer Gateway, means they run a proxy for SIP, and that more often than not is fubar	01:06
DocScrutinizer	you should disable it if there's any, and also you chould change 5060 to e.g 5066	01:07
DocScrutinizer	could*	01:07
MohammadAG	suggestions for mid-range slightly advanced phones?	01:08
shamus	yeah yeah well techinicly it's the familys router but he is the so call network god of the house	01:08
MohammadAG	5530 looks nice	01:08
DocScrutinizer	5060 -> 5066 is a client side thing	01:09
DocScrutinizer	bypassing ALG	01:09
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DocScrutinizer	all common SIP providers support SIP n other than port 5060 as well	01:09
DocScrutinizer	the ALG however won't detect 5066 as SIP	01:10
jonwil	anyone know the package name of the phone dialer app?	01:10
DocScrutinizer	haha	01:10
DocScrutinizer	nope, sorry	01:11
DocScrutinizer	rtcom-dialer-ui is the process name	01:11
shamus	jonwil: dialcentral?	01:11
DocScrutinizer	and binary	01:11
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DocScrutinizer	shamus: BS	01:11
MohammadAG	same package name prolly	01:11
shamus	oh shit that rthe google voice one	01:12
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: a apt-cache search should reveal it then	01:12
jonwil	whatever it is, it should appear in the dependancies list of telepathy-ring since it depends on it	01:12
jonwil	or not	01:12
luke-jr	[18:09:49] <DocScrutinizer> all common SIP providers support SIP n other than port 5060 as well	01:12
DocScrutinizer	prolly not	01:12
luke-jr	what⁇⁇?/	01:12
luke-jr	I haven't seen any that do that	01:12
DocScrutinizer	telepathy-ring should be in rdepends of dialer, but not the other way round	01:13
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DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: you probably never tried	01:13
shamus	in short sip +SOHO == pain but solvable with a bit of poking with a pointy stick	01:14
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luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: nope, I assume they'd document it somewhere	01:14
DocScrutinizer	they don't	01:15
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, rtcom-call-ui	01:15
DocScrutinizer	or that :-P	01:16
MohammadAG	how didn't I notice that...	01:16
DocScrutinizer	(sorry, coffee is too thin for me to wake up)	01:16
MohammadAG	the description is epic	01:16
DocScrutinizer	time for 12648430	01:16
MohammadAG	rtcom-call-ui - RTCom Call UI	01:16
MohammadAG	so descriptive	01:17
DocScrutinizer	yeah, shoot them at the wall, with real BS	01:17
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DocScrutinizer	and I don't mean bullets of frozen BS, I mean lots of stinking warm BS	01:18
DocScrutinizer	probably best fired from old cannons	01:20
jonwil	ok, sounds like rtcom-call-ui only talks to telepathy over a dbus interface. That means that if you wanted to implement something that pre-processes phone call requests you could hack telepathy-ring to use a slightly different dbus name then build a translation layer that talks over the real dbus name.	01:21
jonwil	it looks like its only using dbus anyway	01:21
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DocScrutinizer	or make that owl shit - might teach them wisdom	01:22
jonwil	as for GPS, all the secret stuff is in the location-server daemon which is another impossible-to-reverse-engineer blob	01:23
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DocScrutinizer	but I guess we can't do that or we'd lose 75% of our gifted developers	01:23
DocScrutinizer	"pkg: foobar grobbler. Desc: grobbles foobar" seems to be a common practice	01:25
DocScrutinizer	and for me should become one of the killer criteria of QC	01:26
pupnik	wow DocScrutinizer - there is no match for regexp grobbler	01:26
jonwil	so yeah not sure if its worth digging further into GPS/location	01:26
pupnik	but that's a fantastic name	01:26
DocScrutinizer	>>missng comprehensive description -> rm -rf, userdel<<	01:27
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DocScrutinizer	mail $USER -s "your promotion of foobar grobbler got deleted and your accound nuked" you can do better dude, try again!	01:30
DocScrutinizer	account*	01:30
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DocScrutinizer	jonwil: thanks for update. Yes if that's actually the case that telepathy is completely d-bus based API, then I know we could intercept the dbus msgs, by implementing a proxy or whatever	01:34
DocScrutinizer	alas dbus has no generic means to intercept and mangle msgs, that I know of	01:35
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DocScrutinizer	umm, is this session or system bus?	01:36
DocScrutinizer	session bus would be rather simple	01:36
jonwil	unsure	01:36
DocScrutinizer	compared to system	01:36
DocScrutinizer	hell, we should hack telepathy-ring to support hooks	01:37
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DocScrutinizer	the only really proper way to implement this	01:37
DocScrutinizer	err telepathy at large, not sure about the ring bit	01:38
* DocScrutinizer pondering		01:40
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DocScrutinizer	given the fact rtcom-call-ui clearly is a session thing (it has a X gui), the dbus call should be session bus	01:41
DocScrutinizer	given the fact we got only one non-multitasking modem, it might be system bus as well	01:41
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DocScrutinizer	nah, but several users might use SIP connections concurrently, so clearly session	01:42
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jonwil	ok, so would we need to clone telepathy-ring to add something usefull to this?	01:42
DocScrutinizer	a call always is a session action	01:42
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jacekowski	i'm looking now at that windows phone	01:42
jacekowski	and it's really nice	01:42
jonwil	or would cloning that be a waste of time?	01:43
DocScrutinizer	depends	01:43
jacekowski	i really hope it would do something to iphone	01:43
jonwil	depends on what?	01:43
DocScrutinizer	for call intercepting it's enough to hack generic telepathy on dbus-interface level, as I gather calls via GSM and calls via SIP are using the same telepathy API, and that's the API we want a hook in it	01:44
DocScrutinizer	aiui telepathy-ring is the gsm-specific blob	01:45
jonwil	yes it is	01:45
DocScrutinizer	unrelated to SIP	01:45
jonwil	so would it be worth trying to clone?	01:45
DocScrutinizer	we want to intercept all calls, not only gsm calls	01:45
jonwil	ok, so we dont need to clone it for anything then	01:46
DocScrutinizer	prolly not	01:46
jonwil	I will remove it from my "stuff worth trying to clone" list	01:46
jonwil	the only reason its likely closed is that it uses closed dbus interfaces to talk lower in the stack to the CSD daemon	01:47
jacekowski	what would be the best is do full reverse of modem firmware	01:47
jacekowski	and therefore phonet interface	01:47
jonwil	thats not likely to happen :P	01:47
DocScrutinizer	hmm, I guess you could ask staff@colabora (lcuk, Robot101) about the reasons it's closed	01:47
jacekowski	jonwil: that's not exactly precise	01:48
jacekowski	we already know a bit about phonet	01:48
MohammadAG	we just need a bit more devs	01:48
jacekowski	more time	01:48
DocScrutinizer	and the signing key	01:48
DocScrutinizer	:-P	01:48
jacekowski	we don't have to modify it	01:48
jacekowski	ha	01:49
jacekowski	i just had an idea	01:49
DocScrutinizer	ok, then it's feasible	01:49
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MohammadAG	time?	01:49
jacekowski	what about trying to flash firmware from other rapuyama based phone	01:49
MohammadAG	we have all the time we need	01:49
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jacekowski	if that works	01:49
jacekowski	then there is a chance	01:49
jonwil	isnt phonet documented via ofono and www.wirelessmodemapi.com?	01:49
jacekowski	jonwil: no	01:49
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: that's not a very new idea, anyway an interesting project, though it prolly gives you a brick	01:50
jacekowski	jonwil: only not important parts of it	01:50
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, worst case scenario = crossed out sim	01:51
DocScrutinizer	well, I thought http://www.wirelessmodemapi.com is pretty complete	01:51
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: sure	01:51
MohammadAG	we already know how maemo reacts to a failed modem	01:51
jonwil	which bits of the interface to the modem are not documented? Anything telephony related will be documented by ofono eventually	01:51
jonwil	since ofono will implement all telephony bits	01:51
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: any service monitor mode might or might not be implemented in cellmo FW but never will get documented	01:52
MohammadAG	start porting telephony	01:52
MohammadAG	ofono*	01:52
jonwil	cant port ofono to n900 without throwing away other large parts of the phone that rely on the old telephony stack	01:52
jonwil	Lots of the apps would need to be replaced	01:52
jonwil	and if you do that, you may as well just go to MeeGo	01:53
DocScrutinizer	that's the crux	01:53
MohammadAG	<jonwil> Lots of the apps would need to be replaced	01:53
MohammadAG	phone	01:53
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jonwil	SMS would need replacing	01:53
MohammadAG	reverse engineer the rest	01:53
DocScrutinizer	maps	01:53
MohammadAG	put a compatibility wrapper	01:53
DocScrutinizer	conversations	01:53
MohammadAG	wrapper	01:53
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jonwil	in any case IMO its not worth trying to port ofono to maemo	01:54
psycho_oreos	anyone know where fapman reads the sources.list?	01:54
DocScrutinizer	for sure it's not	01:54
jonwil	there is nothing ofono supports that the current telephony stack does not support	01:54
MohammadAG	psycho_oreos, /opt/fapman(tab)	01:54
psycho_oreos	MohammadAG, ta	01:54
MohammadAG	yw	01:55
MohammadAG	meh	01:55
DocScrutinizer	WUT? fsckng fapman writes to /opt???	01:55
MohammadAG	yes	01:55
SpeedEvil	jonwil: The dogma that closed source is good.	01:55
DocScrutinizer	~nuke fapman	01:55
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at fapman ... B☢☢M!		01:55
jonwil	I don't like closed source	01:55
MohammadAG	lots of apps write to /opt :p	01:55
DocScrutinizer	I'll create a daemon to track down, kill -9, and apt-get remove purge all those	01:56
MohammadAG	who does	01:56
MohammadAG	apt-get writes to /opt	01:56
MohammadAG	:P	01:56
DocScrutinizer	ehh?	01:56
MohammadAG	cache	01:57
DocScrutinizer	on installing, yes	01:57
DocScrutinizer	nah	01:57
MohammadAG	ls -l /var/cache/apt/archives	01:57
DocScrutinizer	please don't tell me apt-get holds a cache on /opt	01:57
MohammadAG	h-e-n was almost about to write to /opt	01:57
MohammadAG	then hit myself	01:57
MohammadAG	I hit*	01:57
BCMM	MohammadAG: heh, for what?	01:57
MohammadAG	.hostmode alive status file	01:58
jacekowski	there is folder for that	01:58
jacekowski	/var/run/	01:58
jacekowski	or you could use shm	01:58
jonwil	btw, csd-sms plugin exports something called IncomingCBS via something (probably dbus). Nothing I can find on the phone uses that though.	01:58
DocScrutinizer	I'm simply pushing a fix that changes permissions of /opt to go-w, and owner to install-admin	01:58
DocScrutinizer	then add apt-get group install-admin	01:59
DocScrutinizer	done	01:59
DocScrutinizer	that's how a decent system config should have looked like from beginning	01:59
DocScrutinizer	modulo ~optification	02:00
MohammadAG	heh	02:00
DocScrutinizer	but that's not related here	02:00
MohammadAG	well	02:00
MohammadAG	where else would one write?	02:00
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DocScrutinizer	hell, to /home maybe	02:00
MohammadAG	as root?	02:00
DocScrutinizer	yes, even as root	02:00
Psi	heh, got samba/apache2/php5/cups working on n900, what else can i overload it with	02:01
MohammadAG	o_O	02:01
MohammadAG	start a hosting service	02:01
DocScrutinizer	though root's home usually is /root	02:01
jacekowski	good question	02:01
jacekowski	how is that cell broadcast working	02:01
jacekowski	cell just sends it every so often	02:01
MohammadAG	/root is on /	02:01
jacekowski	and that's all?	02:01
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: yes	02:02
jonwil	ok, so going over my list, WiFi signal strength is already made available, someone with UI skills I dont yet have would need to write the status bar plugin for it.	02:02
jonwil	reverse engineering telepathy-ring is a waste of time	02:02
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: I told MohammadAG about /ver/run. Seems he nce again doesn't like to listen	02:02
MohammadAG	woah woah woah	02:03
jonwil	since we can hook the dbus interface above telepathy instead	02:03
MohammadAG	did I say I write to /opt?	02:03
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: status bar applet for WIFI is closed, so replacing it by a better version is hard or even impossible	02:04
jonwil	ok, which applet is it?	02:04
MohammadAG	don't make me port network-manager	02:05
MohammadAG	it's related to the closed icd2	02:05
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG should know it	02:05
SpeedEvil	Can't you simply uninstall the status-bar-applet?	02:05
MohammadAG	/usr/lib/hildon-desktop/connui-internet-status-menu-item.so	02:05
MohammadAG	SpeedEvil, or move the desktop file, same effect	02:06
DocScrutinizer	thanks MohammadAG	02:06
MohammadAG	anytime	02:06
MohammadAG	/usr/lib/hildon-desktop/connui-cellular-status-item.so	02:06
MohammadAG	is the 3G one	02:06
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DocScrutinizer	libovipromotionwidget.so WAAAH, rm -fffff	02:09
jonwil	ok, so for the wifi thing would we need to reverse engineer connui-internet-status-menu-item.so or would it be enough to just write something new and remove the old plugin?	02:09
DocScrutinizer	good question	02:09
MohammadAG	write new, replace it	02:09
MohammadAG	of course, we don't know where icd2 lives...	02:10
SpeedEvil	MohammadAG: assuming tha tthe thing driving it does not object to it going missing	02:10
MohammadAG	exactly	02:10
MohammadAG	let's try	02:10
Jeenx	my n900 is tethered to my laptop in order to get internet. is there a way show whats on the phone on the laptop?	02:10
MohammadAG	removed	02:10
Jeenx	did that amke any sense?	02:10
jonwil	its just a status bar widget that calls functions to get the status	02:11
jonwil	or may register callbacks	02:11
SpeedEvil	MohammadAG: now I guess try to boot to see if you hit any dogs	02:11
MohammadAG	need a quicky	02:11
MohammadAG	SpeedEvil, R&D, doesn't make a diff	02:11
MohammadAG	but	02:11
SpeedEvil	ah	02:11
MohammadAG	what's the command to open connection dialog?	02:11
MohammadAG	it's on the dbus page	02:12
MohammadAG	SpeedEvil, actually	02:12
MohammadAG	maemo should boot	02:12
DocScrutinizer	Jeenx: try sftp://rot@n900	02:12
MohammadAG	and networking will work	02:12
DocScrutinizer	Jeenx: try sftp://root@<n900-IP>	02:12
MohammadAG	it already works without it (see h-e-n + ethernet)	02:13
SpeedEvil	MohammadAG: I was meaning - what if ICD is tied to it more than we thought, and ICD has a watchdog	02:13
MohammadAG	yeah	02:13
jonwil	there is no reason why ICD cares about the UI layers above	02:13
MohammadAG	device would bootloop	02:13
SpeedEvil	jonwil: No, there isn't.	02:13
SpeedEvil	jonwil: That doesn't mean it's not the case.	02:13
Jeenx	DocScrutinizer: on the phone or the laptop?	02:13
DocScrutinizer	on laptop	02:13
DocScrutinizer	Jeenx: check usb-networking wikipage	02:14
MohammadAG	k	02:14
Jeenx	thanx	02:14
MohammadAG	time to kill icd2	02:14
DocScrutinizer	kill, pussycat, kill!	02:14
pupnik	no no. "Faster pussycat! Kill, kill!"	02:15
MohammadAG	am I here?	02:15
pupnik	is the proper incarnation	02:15
SpeedEvil	MohammadAG: no	02:15
MohammadAG	killing icd2 restarts telepathy	02:15
MohammadAG	test	02:16
MohammadAG	~ping	02:16
infobot	~pong	02:16
DocScrutinizer	~ding	02:17
infobot	dong	02:17
MohammadAG	~ping	02:17
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infobot	~pong	02:17
SpeedEvil	~king	02:17
infobot	i guess king is Dessimat0r	02:17
MohammadAG	actually	02:17
DocScrutinizer	~pong	02:17
infobot	~ping	02:17
MohammadAG	telepathy continues to run	02:17
MohammadAG	M680-03-4_RD_001:~# while true; do killall -9 icd2; done	02:17
MohammadAG	nice hostname, i must say	02:17
MohammadAG	couldn't resist, sorry	02:18
DocScrutinizer	muhahaha	02:18
MohammadAG	it looks so much geekier than Nokia-N900	02:18
MohammadAG	anyway	02:18
MohammadAG	icd2 can be replaced	02:18
DocScrutinizer	IroN900 and t900 here ;-)	02:18
MohammadAG	but	02:18
MohammadAG	the first time i killed it	02:19
DocScrutinizer	t900 sounds like arnold	02:19
MohammadAG	wlan0 disassociated and associated again	02:19
MohammadAG	hmm	02:19
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MohammadAG	how would one do a 3G connection?	02:20
DocScrutinizer	err?	02:20
MohammadAG	or would a rewrite cover that too?	02:20
jonwil	looking at connui-internet-status-menu-item.so, it doesnt look insanely hard to clone. I think I might try it, it doesnt seem to be calling that many undocumented calls	02:20
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MohammadAG	if it's easy to initiate a 3G connection	02:20
MohammadAG	then i'd say rewrite icd2	02:20
MohammadAG	wl1251 is open	02:21
MrBawb	it's not too hard, as long as the other parts stay the same	02:21
jonwil	no, icd2 would be a pain in the ass to rewrite	02:21
jonwil	it talks to a lot of closed low level libs	02:21
DocScrutinizer	nonono, icd2 has lots of really (this time I mean it) cute stuff to handle connections and connection handover	02:21
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MohammadAG	what's the dbus to open connui dialog :P	02:22
DocScrutinizer	which dialog?	02:22
jonwil	yeah icd2 seems line one of those things whereby even if you reverse engineer it, you will be forever finding corner cases you missed in your reverse engineering	02:22
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: exactly	02:23
DocScrutinizer	and Nokia seems to be really proud of that paticular bit of proprietary IP	02:23
jonwil	wonder what meego is doing there?	02:23
* jonwil checks meego repos		02:24
DocScrutinizer	network manager I guess	02:24
DocScrutinizer	Mnetworkmanager :-P	02:25
MohammadAG	bad news	02:26
jonwil	bad news what?	02:26
DocScrutinizer	N900 exploded XD	02:26
MohammadAG	dbus-send --system --type=method_call --dest=com.nokia.icd_ui /com/nokia/icd_ui com.nokia.icd_ui.show_conn_dlg boolean:false	02:26
MohammadAG	returns no saved connections	02:26
MohammadAG	actually no connections at all	02:27
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DocScrutinizer	that's expected bahviour?	02:27
MohammadAG	oh right	02:27
* MohammadAG facepalms		02:27
MohammadAG	i killed icd2	02:27
MohammadAG	xD	02:27
jonwil	ok, so reverse engineering icd2 is out of the question (although some of its plugins may be fesable if there is a legitimate use case for cloning them)	02:28
DocScrutinizer	umm, yep	02:28
jonwil	any of the icd2 plugins worth reverse engineering?	02:29
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jonwil	either the network or policy plugins?	02:29
DocScrutinizer	icd2 licence change request might work though, if we got a real itch to scratch	02:29
DocScrutinizer	policy, YEAH	02:30
jonwil	I think we could write our own policy plugin if we wanted to	02:30
jacekowski	hmm, are you sure that cell broadcast is just pushed from tower	02:30
jacekowski	because it looks like you may have to register to recieve it	02:30
DocScrutinizer	policies are braindead, no way to implement nice policies	02:30
MohammadAG	ok	02:30
MohammadAG	screw replacing icd2	02:30
MohammadAG	it got messy	02:30
DocScrutinizer	s/nice/smart/.	02:30
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: you need to register with the modem to tell it you are interested in CBS	02:31
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: so it sends you them	02:31
SpeedEvil	AIUI	02:31
MohammadAG	status bar applet can be easily replaced	02:31
MohammadAG	I could do it, but I'm a gtk noob	02:31
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: subscription to CBC is going to modem, so it starts listening	02:31
MohammadAG	Do I see any volunteers	02:32
* MohammadAG hears javispedro, even while he's offline		02:32
MrBawb	my libicd-3g-ipv6 module could be changed to do ipv4, I don't know if that's really useful though	02:32
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: SMS-CB definitely is a connectionless point-to-many protocoll	02:32
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: braodcast at its best	02:33
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: I'm absolutely sure we won't run short on topics for your RE todo list :-)	02:35
jonwil	ok so for icd2 we have the icd2 binary, icd2 policy plugins, network_eap plugin, network_gprs plugin, network_ipv4 plugin, network_wlan plugin, network_wps plugin, libicd_settings, libicd_log, libicd_dbus	02:35
jonwil	Any of those worth doing?	02:35
jonwil	I dont think a license change request for icd2 is likely to go anywhere	02:35
DocScrutinizer	prolly not	02:35
MohammadAG	it is	02:35
MohammadAG	very likely	02:36
jonwil	why do you say that?	02:36
* MohammadAG points to trash		02:36
jonwil	:)	02:36
jonwil	ok, so any of those bits of icd worth trying to clone?	02:36
MohammadAG	clone the status bar applet first	02:36
MohammadAG	it's easy to do	02:36
SpeedEvil	And beneficial.	02:37
jonwil	yeah its on the list	02:37
MohammadAG	also	02:37
SpeedEvil	As wifi status would be nice	02:37
MohammadAG	add signal	02:37
jonwil	but is there anything in icd2 worth adding to the list?	02:37
MohammadAG	yea	02:37
SpeedEvil	A nice little varying antenna, and maybe colour for open/closed	02:37
MohammadAG	nope	02:37
DocScrutinizer	and I couldn't say from those names you listed which of them are the interesting ones	02:37
jonwil	ok, so I wont put any of icd2 stuff on the list then	02:37
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MohammadAG	SpeedEvil, or the same icon	02:38
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MohammadAG	but modify the waves	02:38
jonwil	the "good bits" will be in the icd2 binary and maybe the libicd_xxx libraries	02:38
DocScrutinizer	depends on usecases and what they would touch	02:38
MohammadAG	make it 5-waves	02:38
MohammadAG	show signal	02:38
jonwil	none of which are worth cloning	02:38
SpeedEvil	MohammadAG: that's what I mean	02:38
jonwil	I mean none of which are clonable	02:38
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MohammadAG	:)	02:38
jonwil	icd2 daemon is too hard	02:38
jonwil	policy plugins could be done	02:38
jonwil	but do we have a use case for cloning those?	02:39
MohammadAG	need to learn C and Gtk	02:39
SpeedEvil	ICD doesn't let you do all sorts of potentially interesting stuff.	02:39
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: yes, have smarter policies	02:39
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: priorities	02:39
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: conditional priorities even	02:39
SpeedEvil	For example, you can't tether the phone to your computers internet.	02:39
jonwil	so the policy plugins are what control network priorities and stuff?	02:40
MohammadAG	but you can tether your computer's inte... nevermind	02:40
SpeedEvil	And PAN is entirely unsupported	02:40
DocScrutinizer	yes, a very common unsupported one	02:40
MrBawb	SpeedEvil: the n900 getting internet access via pan?	02:40
DocScrutinizer	(tether to PC's internet)	02:40
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SpeedEvil	MrBawb: in principle	02:40
MrBawb	getting internet via usb should be possible with just a icd plugin	02:40
SpeedEvil	MrBawb: Or indeed, tethering through bluetooth on another phone	02:41
SpeedEvil	Or via host-mode, through a dongle.	02:41
MrBawb	getting internet via pan is also possible via an icd plugin	02:41
DocScrutinizer	and managing priorities for all of those	02:41
SpeedEvil	yeah	02:42
SpeedEvil	In many ways the UI is harder than the low-level	02:42
SpeedEvil	UI and policy framework	02:42
MohammadAG	you know	02:42
MohammadAG	Nokia spent time on Maemo 5	02:42
MohammadAG	sadly, most of that time went to waste	02:42
SpeedEvil	:/	02:42
MohammadAG	the more i compare stock mediaplayer to mine	02:43
MohammadAG	the more things I find	02:43
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MohammadAG	the small details they looked at are hard to spot, and hard to code	02:43
MohammadAG	like if you notice	02:43
jacekowski	hmmm	02:44
MohammadAG	the now playing indicator is destoryed/hidden+stopped on each window switch	02:44
jacekowski	Jan 22 00:43:48 Nokia-N900 cellular: csd[2537]: ISI_SMS .597141> isiclient_sms_run(): SMS_STATE_START (sms_pp_routing_req, sms_gsm_cb_routing_req, [sms_storage_status_update_req], sim_sms_req_read_parameter)	02:44
jacekowski	Jan 22 00:43:48 Nokia-N900 cellular: csd[2537]: ISI_SMS .604588> resp_cell_broadcast_subscription(): Incoming cell broadcast receive status:0 OK	02:44
MohammadAG	and recreated on each window	02:44
jacekowski	Jan 22 00:43:48 Nokia-N900 cellular: csd[2537]: ISI_SMS .604832> resp_sms_subscription(): Incoming sms receive status:0 OK	02:44
SpeedEvil	]	02:44
SpeedEvil	The coding style and choice of which bits to open in maemo makes sense.	02:44
MohammadAG	now playing window is always recreated, a bit sad	02:44
MohammadAG	time and memory waster	02:45
SpeedEvil	If you start out from the perspective of 'Ok - we want to make an openish phone, but we absolutely don't want to allow other phone makers to gain anything from what the community codes'.	02:45
SpeedEvil	'What bits do we need to close, and how should we obscure them to make them hard to reverse engineer'.	02:46
SpeedEvil	reverse engineer by the community.	02:46
SpeedEvil	A large number of interconnected non-documented daemons, that all talk to each other, and you can't replace piecemeal - is pretty much spot-on for that.	02:46
jacekowski	can anybody check if csd has watchdog registered with dsme?	02:47
jacekowski	or some other nasty stuff	02:47
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: o.O	02:47
MohammadAG	kill it	02:47
MohammadAG	if it starts again / reboots device	02:47
jacekowski	i don't want to reboot my phone	02:47
jacekowski	that's why i'm asking	02:47
MohammadAG	What's the binary name?	02:47
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jacekowski	csd	02:48
SpeedEvil	grep -r csd /etc/rc.d	02:48
BCMM	SpeedEvil: it does all seem like a bit of a waste of effort - don't we already have a open set of daemons that rely on each other? (network manager, HAL, etc.)	02:48
MohammadAG	just stop it	02:48
MohammadAG	stop csd	02:48
BCMM	(yes i know HAL is dieing)	02:48
MohammadAG	same as bme	02:48
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: yep, exactly (obscure...)	02:49
jacekowski	i don't want to stop it	02:49
jacekowski	can anybody just kill it and tell me if it reboots a phone	02:49
MohammadAG	it starts again	02:49
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MohammadAG	so yes, there's a watchdog	02:49
SpeedEvil	BCMM: It's not a waste from the right perspective.	02:50
MohammadAG	killing it = no sim icon	02:50
SpeedEvil	BCMM: the perspective is making damn sure that china can't use stuff the community develops to make a nice usable smartphone running a maemo derivative.	02:50
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DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: that's what bites their own arses now, for meego XP	02:51
SpeedEvil	BCMM: and to sidetrack community effort away from reimplementing the stuff that might help them, as it's too hard, letting them do easy stuff that doesn't help a third party manufacurer at all.	02:51
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: yep	02:51
SpeedEvil	They are trying to be IBM - pre-breakup.	02:51
SpeedEvil	Hey!	02:51
SpeedEvil	IBM pre-breakup also sold most of its computers through a leasing model.	02:52
SpeedEvil	:)	02:52
SpeedEvil	(though admittedly they leased them directly)	02:52
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pupnik	would MS-DOS have taken the market by storm without the clones?	02:52
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pupnik	maybe meego needs cheap hardware to succeed	02:52
SpeedEvil	pupnik: I mean IBM - back when IBM used to not sell mainframes. They would only lease you one - the software came free. Often with source.	02:52
pupnik	ah ok	02:52
SpeedEvil	pupnik: Closed source really took off (as I understand it) once this went away, and you actually had to buy software.	02:53
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pupnik	hmm...	02:54
DocScrutinizer	I just find it incredibly lame of Nokia to tell us a bout their interest in safety, differentiation, safety, quality, when it comes to rationale why some bits need to keep closed. I see the Nokia internal structures and hirarchies causing such crap excuses to come and even believed by those spreading them, and I don't like it	02:56
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SpeedEvil	'And of these, differentiation is king'	02:58
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DocScrutinizer	the running gag of maemo "we can't open core apps, however crap and buggy they are. We want to differentiate (to the inferior)" XD	02:59
DocScrutinizer	ir short: "that's not a bug, that's a feature"	03:00
nox-	DocScrutinizer, btw have you seen this bug? wlan0: driver reports beacon loss from AP cf1bb52c - sending probe request	03:01
nox-	ap is maybe 2m away...	03:01
nox-	and when i see those i get them until i click disconnect and then connect again	03:01
DocScrutinizer	PSM	03:01
nox-	psm?	03:01
DocScrutinizer	power saving mode	03:01
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DocScrutinizer	it's a timing thing, based on exact scheduled slots of active time	03:02
nox-	hmm	03:02
nox-	is it fixable?	03:02
DocScrutinizer	if the AP doesn't implement it correctly, then that's probably what you'll get	03:02
nox-	oh its an ap thing...	03:03
nox-	well this is hotapd	03:03
DocScrutinizer	nox-: maybe your AP has config options you can tweak	03:03
nox-	hostapd even	03:03
DocScrutinizer	like freq of beacons sent	03:04
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DocScrutinizer	also there seem to be parameters directly related to PSM - some AP allow tuning them	03:04
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nox-	oh no the beacons get sent, i see them in wireshark...	03:04
pupnik	wonder if you can get bacon-scent cologne	03:04
DocScrutinizer	yeah, but the freq range is from 10/s .. 0.1/s	03:05
DocScrutinizer	even 50/s seens sometimes	03:05
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jonwil	ok, so for ICD2, the policy plugins are on my todo list. The icd2 daemon is too hard.	03:06
DocScrutinizer	nox-: anyway you never should use hidden SSID	03:06
jonwil	The libraries (libicd_settings, libicd_dbus and libicd_log) are pointless	03:06
jonwil	since only icd2 uses them	03:06
DocScrutinizer	on none of your configured connections	03:06
jonwil	and the network plugins are useless since we can write our own if we need to	03:07
nox-	hmm	03:07
jonwil	btw there seems to be a libicd-network-usb package	03:08
jonwil	oh wait thats in extras-devel	03:08
DocScrutinizer	nox-: if you got one single connection configured with hidden SSID, then your WLAN in N900 needs to actively ping every AP with hidden SSID it detects -> TX -> battery consumption	03:08
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nox-	aah	03:08
jacekowski	does anybody have info about content of that cbsms?	03:09
DocScrutinizer	well, it might try be a smartass and only ping the AP with correct MAC, but then that's not how connections are supposed to work - aiui	03:10
javispedro	clearly not as it won't store the mac	03:10
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: data structure of the particular SMS?	03:10
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: which content? which cbsms?	03:11
jacekowski	yes	03:11
jacekowski	yes	03:11
jacekowski	dunno	03:11
jacekowski	http://pastebin.com/eGt5WzZE	03:11
DocScrutinizer	see wikipedia, cell broadcast	03:11
jacekowski	does this mean anything to you	03:11
DocScrutinizer	it's ost likely octet coded 7bit	03:11
jonwil	So you actually recieved a cell broadcast message on your N900?	03:12
jonwil	Or did you get it from some other phone?	03:12
jacekowski	it's on my phone	03:12
jacekowski	it's recieveing it	03:12
jacekowski	i just see that there is no handler installed for it	03:13
jacekowski	but it's getting as far as libsms.so	03:13
DocScrutinizer	it's obviously mentioning a tel number at start	03:13
jonwil	so the answer is that no DBUS handler is registered to recieve the relavent dbus information?	03:13
jacekowski	nope	03:13
jacekowski	it's low level	03:13
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: So the modem can do it?	03:14
SpeedEvil	Great.	03:14
jacekowski	http://pastebin.com/ZrQRHSiR	03:14
jacekowski	jonwil: something like that	03:14
DocScrutinizer	I don't think that's a sms-cb	03:14
DocScrutinizer	it has a phone number	03:14
SpeedEvil	Oh - yeah	03:14
jonwil	I think for CBSMS all we need is to interrogate the IncomingCBS item	03:14
jonwil	its clearly some kind of dbus thing	03:15
jonwil	but how you talk to it I cant tell	03:15
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SpeedEvil	That is t-mobile UKs SMSC	03:15
SpeedEvil	The phone number	03:15
DocScrutinizer	I'm still putting hope into 10870 and 8347	03:15
jacekowski	what is that?	03:15
DocScrutinizer	bug 10870	03:16
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/10870 Open source libsms and libsms-utils	03:16
DocScrutinizer	bug 8347	03:16
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/8347 Cell Broadcast Feature not available	03:16
MohammadAG	javispedro, kind of enough to donate a status menu app?	03:16
DocScrutinizer	go vote for it. Don't let quim gil close it as wontfix	03:16
SpeedEvil	SMSC is the SMS service centre.	03:16
jacekowski	is every network sendind cbsms?	03:17
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: no	03:17
jacekowski	is t-mobile sending cbsms?	03:17
javispedro	MohammadAG: a "status menu app" of what?	03:17
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, voting != fixing	03:17
MohammadAG	javispedro, just a "Internet connections" rewrite	03:17
javispedro	O.o	03:17
javispedro	Mer again?	03:17
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: not every	03:18
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_message_service_center	03:18
DocScrutinizer	but a lot of the european ones, in one chan or another	03:18
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jacekowski	i know what a smsc is	03:18
MohammadAG	javispedro, yes, muhahaha	03:18
MohammadAG	javispedro, but seriously, can you?	03:18
jacekowski	thing is i don't know what to expect	03:18
jacekowski	is it message sent every couple seconds	03:18
jacekowski	is it even sent by t-mobile?	03:19
MohammadAG	It needs to get wifi AP name, call the connection dialog via DBus and when switched to 3G, get AP name	03:19
jacekowski	or i have to get prepaid simcard on another network	03:19
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: that's great	03:19
MohammadAG	easy and straightforward	03:19
javispedro	not really	03:19
javispedro	there's the entire connection UI	03:19
MohammadAG	no	03:19
MohammadAG	that's not part of it	03:19
MohammadAG	i removed it here	03:19
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: what's great?	03:20
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DocScrutinizer	a SMS coming in every few seconds - smells like SMS-CB	03:20
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_Broadcast	03:20
jacekowski	ehh	03:20
jacekowski	i don't have that	03:20
MohammadAG	javispedro, dbus-send --system --type=method_call --dest=com.nokia.icd_ui /com/nokia/icd_ui com.nokia.icd_ui.show_conn_dlg boolean:false	03:20
jacekowski	and i'm asking if it's what i should expect	03:20
MohammadAG	that calls the dialog	03:20
jacekowski	and if i should expect it on t-mobile	03:20
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DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: >>>A Cell Broadcast message page comprises 82 octets, which, using the default character set, equates to 93 characters. Up to 15 of these pages may be concatenated to form a Cell Broadcast message. Each page of such a CB message will have the same message identifier (indicating the source of the message), and the same serial number. Using this information, the mobile telephone is able to identify and ignore broadcasts of already	03:21
DocScrutinizer	received messages.	03:21
jacekowski	i know that part	03:21
MohammadAG	javispedro, I'd do it, but I'm a gtk noob :P	03:21
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jacekowski	ah	03:22
jacekowski	hmm, ok, crap	03:22
jacekowski	shit	03:22
jacekowski	no cell broadcast on t-mobile	03:22
Jartza	gtk is easy	03:22
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: try to decode the octets to 7bit chars to see if that's some meanngful text. You can use the python code somewhere in wiki, on phone control iirc (sending SMS via dbus)	03:23
MohammadAG	Jartza, I hate C's syntax	03:23
MohammadAG	(this again...)	03:23
jacekowski	ekhm	03:23
Jartza	hmm	03:23
MohammadAG	hate translates to idk in my book	03:23
Jartza	I don't :)	03:24
jacekowski	i love C	03:24
javispedro	MohammadAG: completely non interested though.	03:24
jacekowski	and asm	03:24
BCMM	jacekowski: t-mob UK?	03:24
jacekowski	yes	03:24
Jartza	I hate C++.	03:24
MohammadAG	javispedro, i'll give you an N9	03:24
MohammadAG	when it's out	03:24
Jartza	Qt is my only reason to use C++ :)	03:24
MohammadAG	I only know Qt :P	03:24
Jartza	C is nice. Simple enough.	03:25
BCMM	i'm just now learning C++ and Qt, and it seems pretty nice to me	03:25
Jartza	but I've only done just a bit of asm	03:26
BCMM	i like C, but felt like i was missing something a lot like a class to separate stuff into bits that break independently	03:26
MohammadAG	i hate the priv thingy in C	03:26
MohammadAG	how you define everything at the top	03:26
MohammadAG	and make an instance of that every time	03:26
Jartza	I wrote more asm when I was using C64 back in the times :)	03:26
MohammadAG	also, worrying about memory isn't my best skill	03:26
Jartza	nowadays just some simple initialization parts when doing "embedded" devel	03:27
BCMM	in much the same way that in the brain-dead BASIC variant i first learned to program, i felt that there was something missing which i later learned was a "function"	03:27
Jartza	like initializing the vectors for arm etc...	03:27
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BCMM	(it only has subroutines that didn't take parameters)	03:28
Jartza	but I do write and teach C++	03:28
Jartza	because of Qt	03:28
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Jartza	I wish I had more time	03:29
pupnik	MohammadAG: you might get more identifiable results if you attached a test image for people to photograph	03:29
Jartza	I could participate to meego somehow more	03:29
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Jartza	would be nice	03:30
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pupnik	use it and fix what 'sucks' for you	03:31
Jartza	I am using and teachig people how to develop to meego	03:32
Jartza	that just takes most of my time	03:32
MohammadAG	pupnik, hm?	03:33
MohammadAG	need 2 more batteries	03:33
jacekowski	do you know any user friendly music shop?	03:33
MohammadAG	amazon?	03:34
MohammadAG	or the ubuntu one store	03:34
MohammadAG	or iTunes :P	03:34
jonwil	ok, so I am looking at my reverse-engineering todo list. Are any of the other desktop widgets worth reverse engineering or just the internet one?	03:35
pupnik	MohammadAG: can you phrase your question in the form of a sentence?	03:35
* SpeedEvil ponders.		03:36
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: you managed to decode parts of that SMS?	03:36
MohammadAG	pupnik, image of what?	03:36
MohammadAG	you kinda lost me	03:36
jonwil	ok, so are any of the other desktop widgets worth reverse engineering?	03:37
javispedro	what is so fun about the internet status bar applet? it probably even uses the standard icd2 api	03:37
SpeedEvil	jonwil: you mean like the calendar?	03:37
SpeedEvil	javispedro: Well - it lacks signal strength, which is quite fundamental	03:37
jonwil	for wifi signal strength	03:37
javispedro	ah, the miniicon	03:37
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: nope, that's probably something else	03:37
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: t-mobile isn't sending cell broadcasts	03:38
jacekowski	i'll get vodafone sim tomorrow	03:38
javispedro	well, that was a feature of the n8x0 one.	03:38
DocScrutinizer	how do you know?	03:38
jacekowski	google	03:38
MohammadAG	lol	03:38
SpeedEvil	jonwil: GPS - indicating if it can recieve any satellites at all - if it can't - then it's unlikely to ever get a position.	03:38
DocScrutinizer	I think t-mob actually shall send SMS-CB, to identify area	03:38
MohammadAG	javispedro, you could also add tap-n-hold to disconnect	03:38
DocScrutinizer	in chan#50 iirc	03:39
SpeedEvil	jonwil: So if you turn it on, it might flash grey - then flash white - picking up at least one sat, then go solid when it has a fix	03:39
MohammadAG	or to ifdown wlan0	03:39
javispedro	so it's more like a "Advanced ICD2 Applet" thing	03:39
MohammadAG	yeah	03:39
jacekowski	Jan 22 01:16:36 Nokia-N900 cellular: csd[2537]: com.nokia.phone.net: get_network_time_info returned: y:100 m:100 d:100 h:100 m:100 s:100 tz:100 dl:100	03:39
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: yeah - that's a 'bug' on the network I thing	03:39
SpeedEvil	k	03:39
javispedro	MohammadAG: you can probably code such applets in Qt, if you're that interested.	03:39
MohammadAG	how?	03:39
jonwil	for CBSMS its all about finding out how to poke the IncomingCBS dbus thing	03:40
MohammadAG	and I'd rather learn Gtk :P	03:40
jonwil	at least thats my guess	03:40
MohammadAG	faster startup time	03:40
SpeedEvil	https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10163	03:40
povbot	Bug 10163: GPS does not automatically set time of device.	03:40
javispedro	now that's an interesting thing =)	03:40
MohammadAG	does gtk work with C++?	03:40
javispedro	there's gtkmm	03:40
jacekowski	well	03:41
jacekowski	Jan 22 01:03:31 Nokia-N900 cellular: csd[2537]: ISI_SMS .327915> resp_cell_broadcast_subscription(): Incoming cell broadcast receive status:0 OK	03:41
MohammadAG	but it's not the same eh? :P	03:41
javispedro	there's even some nokia maemomm stuff, but... probably rotting	03:41
jacekowski	Jan 22 01:05:12 Nokia-N900 cellular: csd[2537]: ISI_SMS .333317> resp_sms_subscription(): Incoming sms receive status:0 OK	03:41
jacekowski	csd is indicating that everything is ready to recieve sms and sms-cb	03:41
jacekowski	but nothing happens	03:41
jacekowski	http://pastebin.com/PiHD76Mn	03:41
MohammadAG	may I ask	03:41
jacekowski	that's what happened when i sent text to myself	03:41
MohammadAG	wtf is cell broadcast?	03:41
jacekowski	MohammadAG: i don't know	03:42
SpeedEvil	jonwil: Also - battery meter would be nice.	03:42
javispedro	and a better question is	03:42
MohammadAG	it never worked in IL	03:42
javispedro	has cbsms ever been used by any telco since the nineties for anything remotely useful? =)	03:42
MohammadAG	the only difference I saw on symbian when i enabled it was the tower got lit up	03:42
BCMM	MohammadAG: a way to send a message to every device connected to a tower	03:43
jonwil	for CBSMS its all about finding out how to poke the IncomingCBS dbus thing, assuming the network sends CBSMS messages then that dbus interface should somehow reiceve it	03:43
MohammadAG	BCMM, my operator does that with text messages	03:43
MohammadAG	how do they differ :P	03:43
MohammadAG	besides being annoying	03:43
jonwil	as for status bar widgets, fm transmitter status plugin is not worth reverse engineering	03:43
BCMM	MohammadAG: all of the devices are supposed to receive it	03:43
javispedro	I remember at least mine used to send me stuff about the "name" they gave to the cells (which usually was nearest town with a certain population), and that was nice (channel ninety-something iirc)	03:43
javispedro	but they no longer do that...	03:43
MohammadAG	jonwil, that one was fully rewritten	03:43
MohammadAG	by qwerty12	03:43
jonwil	ok	03:44
BCMM	MohammadAG: in theory, it is useful in emergencies. dunno if anyone uses it	03:44
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: that's not necessarily indicating that the modem is correctly configured to actually recieve any SMS-CB. It could as well be a valid rsponse to a configuration command that in fact unsubscribes to all channels	03:44
jonwil	bluetooth headset status, bluetooth status, bluetooth transfer status, none of those are worth reverse engineering	03:44
MohammadAG	BCMM, hmm, so I need to upgrade my mobile so I don't miss 2012	03:44
BCMM	MohammadAG: but someone here told me that it's how some phones on some networks are able to display the name of the cell (usually the name of hte area it's in or the building it's on top of)	03:45
MohammadAG	:P	03:45
MohammadAG	ah	03:45
MohammadAG	that cell info	03:45
MohammadAG	(that's cell broadcast?)	03:45
BCMM	is that a different system?	03:45
jonwil	yes thats cell broadcast	03:45
MohammadAG	they're different options on symbian	03:45
BCMM	MohammadAG: dunno, but somebody in here said it was	03:45
javispedro	see my little story above =)	03:45
MohammadAG	well	03:45
MohammadAG	it's neat how it knows your location instantly	03:45
jacekowski	i'm going to sleep	03:45
javispedro	MohammadAG: usually you'll find a settings screen with a list of "channels" like 10, 25, 30, etc.	03:46
BCMM	i wish more networks would do that, it's kind of interesting	03:46
MohammadAG	but... it's not too helpful if I'm lost	03:46
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BCMM	would've been a lot more useful before GPS, to be honest	03:46
jonwil	ok, so I will clone connui-status-menu-item	03:46
BCMM	i mean, before GPS was common in phones	03:46
MohammadAG	there was a hotel in turkey	03:46
jonwil	also status-area-applet-battery	03:46
MohammadAG	that somehow said you were in the lobby	03:46
BCMM	i've never seen working cell info in the UK	03:46
MohammadAG	or restaurant	03:46
MohammadAG	that kinda amazed me	03:46
MohammadAG	jonwil, there's a python clone for that btw	03:46
BCMM	MohammadAG: heh, i was going to mention turkey - everywhere seems to have cell info there	03:46
SpeedEvil	jonwil: the battery meter for example can be improved - the hardware can tell us teh charge of the battery, when charging, for example.	03:47
MohammadAG	if you're doing it in C	03:47
BCMM	that was actually useful too, like having GPS on my 3410	03:47
MohammadAG	remember that it handles "Charging", "Battery Low"	03:47
MohammadAG	etc	03:47
jonwil	cant see it worth cloning ham-notifier-status-menu-item or ham-updates-status-menu-item	03:47
jacekowski	SpeedEvil: like is that of teh any use	03:47
BCMM	since they all seemed to be named after major landmarks they were on top of	03:47
MohammadAG	jonwil, those are open source	03:47
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: sure.	03:47
jacekowski	SpeedEvil: voltage while charging will be bit off	03:47
jacekowski	significant bit	03:47
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: It's not voltage - it's the charge meter	03:47
jacekowski	as in, energy in/out?	03:48
SpeedEvil	jacekowski: It integrates battery cunt to measure charge	03:48
SpeedEvil	current	03:48
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: (settings screen) on 6210 Nokia this was a config dialog where you enter the numeric SMS-CB channel, plus a symbolic name for your convenience	03:48
jacekowski	where does battery have cunt?	03:48
MohammadAG	it has 3 at the top, +, -, and whatever the third one is	03:48
BCMM	jacekowski: ask Yahoo Answers.	03:49
Robot101	jonwil: SMS wouldn't need replacing if you replaced csd with ofono - the open source ring shouldn't need too much work to replace the closed one	03:49
jonwil	we dont need to replace SMS at all	03:49
Robot101	jonwil: the problem is it would break the dialer more - USSD and emergency calls I guess	03:49
BCMM	the third one doesn't make it explode?	03:49
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: and 6210 power consuption noticably increased on subscribing to any SMS-CB channel, as the receiver couldn't enter deep sleep anymore	03:49
MohammadAG	Robot101, nah	03:49
Robot101	signal strength and offline mode and stuff would be the annoyance	03:49
MohammadAG	it'll break it completely	03:49
jonwil	all we need to do is to find the right dbus calls to talk to the dbus cbsms interface	03:49
jonwil	IncomingCBS or whatever it is that libcsd-sms exports	03:50
MohammadAG	dbus-monitor --system?	03:50
jonwil	Not sure what sort of dbus thing it is	03:50
Robot101	MohammadAG: no, the conversations app is really similar between sms and IM, there are just a couple of extra interfaces for SMS	03:50
MohammadAG	system for sure	03:50
MohammadAG	i doubt it's dbus	03:50
Robot101	but they're in librtcom-telepathy-glib which is on git.collabora.co.uk at least	03:50
DocScrutinizer	Robot101: We think replacing the whole telephony stack of maemo by an ofono based one is unfeasible	03:51
MohammadAG	Robot101, It's telepathy for both	03:51
MohammadAG	you're talking about replacing the stack	03:51
MohammadAG	not the UI	03:51
MohammadAG	UI replacement is planned after the mediaplayer	03:51
MohammadAG	maybe we can get a less shitty scrolling experience	03:51
jonwil	the IncomingCBS thing is definatly dbus	03:51
MohammadAG	idk why they went with a crippled webOS-like conversations screen	03:51
Robot101	I was mostly thinking about jonwil's cbsms obsession, if he could replace csd with ofono, and update ring, he'd be able to fsck around with whatever he wanted	03:52
jonwil	well I gave up my CBSMS obsession	03:52
MohammadAG	ring's closed	03:52
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: so we should be able to get proper info regarding that, from Nokia or any of their affiliates	03:52
* DocScrutinizer pokes Robot101		03:52
jonwil	since my carrier isn't even sending CBSMS	03:52
Robot101	MohammadAG: there's a new ring which works with ofono	03:52
MohammadAG	ah	03:53
Robot101	I am very sure you can make that work with the existing SMS UI	03:53
MohammadAG	well, that makes sense	03:53
MohammadAG	yes	03:53
MohammadAG	you're right	03:53
MohammadAG	telepathy-* works	03:53
jonwil	replacing csd with ofono is out of the question, too many other bits of the system are tied to it	03:53
MohammadAG	what about contacts	03:53
MohammadAG	phone app	03:53
Robot101	contacts doesn't touch csd at all, and only requests calls / chats via the call and conversation apps	03:53
Robot101	ok well contacts has a sim contacts plugin	03:54
Robot101	but who cares about sim contacts	03:54
MohammadAG	...	03:54
DocScrutinizer	Robot101: that's not the aproach we think will pan out	03:54
MohammadAG	if who cares was enough	03:54
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MohammadAG	I would've pushed a zImage of 2.6.35 that mounted /	03:55
MohammadAG	who cares about the rest of the system	03:55
Robot101	I don't actually know what you're working on or trying to achieve at all	03:55
MohammadAG	I'm trying to achieve mer	03:55
jonwil	its clear that libsms and csd-sms on Fremantle have support for Cell Broadcast SMS	03:55
Robot101	I'm just pondering the whole csd/ofono thing, and someone said SMS would break - I think that's the only thing that wouldn't ::D	03:55
jonwil	SMS-CB	03:55
DocScrutinizer	we are after getting cell broadcast to work on stock maemo	03:55
MohammadAG	(I think)	03:55
jonwil	and thats what we want to get working	03:55
MohammadAG	mer was awesome	03:56
MohammadAG	should be revived	03:56
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Robot101	fmms probably has quite some clues about csd's SMS APIs	03:56
Robot101	and you might find some nokians working on ofono atm used to work on csd	03:56
DocScrutinizer	hmm a good point	03:56
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Robot101	and, did anyone try dbus introspecting it? I dunno if it works but its a good start	03:57
* MohammadAG pokes frals		03:57
Robot101	dbus-monitor --system is also likely to be helpful	03:57
MohammadAG	i already suggested that	03:57
DocScrutinizer	Robot101: please have a look into bug 8347	03:57
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/8347 Cell Broadcast Feature not available	03:57
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DocScrutinizer	Robot101: dbus introspection is known to be unsupported in all Nokia closed source components	03:58
BCMM	gah, how does one determine which row of a QListView is currently selected?	03:58
jacekowski	Jan 22 01:59:03 Nokia-N900 cellular: csd[2537]: com.nokia.phone.net: get_network_time_info returned: y:100 m:100 d:100 h:100 m:100 s:100 tz:100 dl:100	03:59
jacekowski	i'm just wondering wtf is this?	03:59
SpeedEvil	https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10163	03:59
povbot	Bug 10163: GPS does not automatically set time of device.	03:59
SpeedEvil	jacekowski:	03:59
DocScrutinizer	Robot101: so we'd need a guru that drops us a magic dbus incantation to csd-sms to put cell broadcast to work, according to jonwil's findings	03:59
jacekowski	Rarok: and dbus is useless for that	04:00
jacekowski	Robot101: nothing is sent over dbus from csd that would be usefull at all	04:00
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: that's a borked GSM time msg	04:00
jonwil	fmms works higher level by plugging into wappush or something	04:00
* MohammadAG patches rootsh to ask if a user is a noob and prevent all access with a user-removable status file in ~		04:00
MohammadAG	root access for noobs is dangerous	04:01
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG is dangerous	04:01
jonwil	yeah fmms is using com.nokia.WAPPushHandler	04:01
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, indeed	04:02
jonwil	as for SMS-CB, it seems like there is a dbus interface/path called Phone.SMS which exports something below it called IncomingCBS	04:02
jonwil	so for CBSMS, we just need to figure out how to talk to that interfface	04:03
DocScrutinizer	and that's hard to figure by mere guessing	04:03
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DocScrutinizer	and pretty sure we don't want to replace csd by ofono, just to get some clue how to use the API	04:07
jonwil	ok, so I am going to give up on messing with the GPS stuff, reverse engineering location-daemon is too hard	04:07
MohammadAG	i think someone reverse engineered it before	04:07
jonwil	well I am not going to do it, its too hard for me :)	04:08
MohammadAG	i think	04:08
jonwil	My RE todo list so far is "keep looking into IncomingCBS maybe to see how it works", "produce clone of ICD policy plugins", "	04:08
SpeedEvil	jonwil: the protocol has been done for the GPS hardware	04:08
jonwil	ok	04:08
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jonwil	"produce clone of connui-internet-status-menu-item","produce clone of status-area-applet-battery"	04:08
DocScrutinizer	modulo AGPS afaik	04:08
jonwil	Investigate audio routing and consider reverse engineering those bits that are closed	04:09
javispedro	the only closed bits are mostly some 3gpp codec related stuff that is also currently a blob in meego	04:10
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: ??	04:10
javispedro	well, and the actual policy itself. but that's compiled prolog =)=	04:10
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DocScrutinizer	aah for audio	04:11
jonwil	anyone know what module-nokia-music, module-nokia-record, module-nokia-voice are for?	04:11
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: what javispedro just said	04:11
DocScrutinizer	mostly	04:12
jonwil	Those blobs are open in MeeGo but closed in maemo	04:12
jonwil	and in maemo they talk to libbmeipc	04:12
javispedro	music probably does the "enhacements" (aka distortions), dunno about record, voice is routing	04:12
javispedro	they talk to libbmeipc because they have to know the temperature of some chip and for some reason	04:12
DocScrutinizer	record probably does AEC	04:12
MohammadAG	god i love the battery meter	04:13
MohammadAG	from "50" to "low"	04:13
DocScrutinizer	another explanation was they need to playback bme borne audio notifications	04:13
javispedro	doubt that, it would be much easier for the ie battery applet to play them	04:14
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DocScrutinizer	:nod:	04:14
MohammadAG	hildon-desktop plays touchscreen events btw	04:14
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: can you think of any reason a voice codec could want the temperature?	04:14
DocScrutinizer	xprot for sure is querying the device temperature	04:14
MohammadAG	yeah	04:14
MohammadAG	so it doesn't go out of tune	04:14
DocScrutinizer	hahaha	04:14
javispedro	so there you have the bmeipc dep	04:15
SpeedEvil	So it could work out the delay between speaker and mic due to speed of sound.	04:15
SpeedEvil	It should also read GPS altitude.	04:15
javispedro	=)	04:15
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: I was shy to post that comment :-P	04:15
MohammadAG	should check if a medium is present too	04:15
MohammadAG	if not, use electromagnetc waves	04:15
jonwil	so module-nokia-voice, module-nokia-record and module-nokia-voice have nothing to do with audio routing?	04:16
javispedro	the truth is that the nokia record module is actually the one that triggers battery self-destruct when it hears the magic word.	04:16
DocScrutinizer	terribly insane niche of maemo bme/audio	04:16
javispedro	jonwil: voice does.	04:16
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MohammadAG	btw	04:17
javispedro	voice is the "executive" part of the audio routing framework	04:17
MohammadAG	why does battery empty stutter?	04:17
jonwil	whats module-policy-enforcement for?	04:17
MohammadAG	xpolicy.conf i guess	04:17
DocScrutinizer	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=63997	04:18
DocScrutinizer	probably it's a prolog interpreter	04:18
MohammadAG	that thread scares me	04:18
jonwil	module-policy-enforcement on meego has nothing to do with prolog	04:19
javispedro	hum	04:20
DocScrutinizer	see alsaped maybe	04:20
jonwil	ok, so I intend to play with all 4 of those modules (policy-enforcement, voice, record and music	04:20
javispedro	I probably confused voice and enforcement	04:20
jonwil	and reverse engineer this stuff in conjunction with the MeeGo code	04:20
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javispedro	grep for /com/nokia/policy/decision and you'll find the one receiving orders from ohmd and executing them	04:21
DocScrutinizer	I'd guess voice and record are complementary, where voice has AEC. Music has xprot	04:21
DocScrutinizer	also iirc voice is dealing with that insane syncing of PCM stream to GSM 20ms timeslices	04:22
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: will you eventually write up a mini-howto or similar whitepaper about that stuff?	04:23
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javispedro	the minihowto will be the code =)	04:23
DocScrutinizer	lol	04:24
SpeedEvil	Umm...	04:24
javispedro	(of how to use/confuse the stuff -- not wanting to replace any of it..)	04:24
SpeedEvil	A bug is marked as a duplicate.	04:24
SpeedEvil	But the original bug is fixed.	04:24
SpeedEvil	And the duplicate is not.	04:24
MohammadAG	need - global - orientation - fix	04:24
SpeedEvil	Is this not a duplicate then?	04:24
DocScrutinizer	hmm	04:24
SpeedEvil	(https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10163)	04:25
povbot	Bug 10163: GPS does not automatically set time of device.	04:25
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: philosophically it's not a duplicate then, if the assumptions are true	04:25
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pupnik	i have the problem with caring about audio and video	04:28
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pupnik	and the past couple of years has been like watching a fat lady in a razorblade suit dive into a pool filled with children	04:30
pupnik	in slow motion	04:30
jonwil	is there any benifit reverse engineering the alarm/clock statusbar item?	04:31
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DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: try ->tablet-mode ->phone-mode. This triggered a GSM time msg and device setting time correctly from GSM, for me	04:32
* javispedro notes		04:32
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javispedro	many people have tried to make a usable & open version of maemo, and many have failed/moved to meego.	04:32
DocScrutinizer	jonwil: sure there is: select different formats/fontsets	04:32
javispedro	start with a small set, and start now.	04:32
javispedro	otherwise you will soon realise the magnitude of the work to be done and move on =)	04:33
jonwil	heh, hard work doesnt phase me	04:33
pupnik	http://grammar.about.com/od/alightersideofwriting/a/FazePhasegloss.htm faze, actually	04:34
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Jartza	hmm	04:38
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: See https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10163 - the second to last message	04:38
povbot	Bug 10163: GPS does not automatically set time of device.	04:38
SpeedEvil	Also - the above has interesting log entry mentioning cell broadcast	04:39
SpeedEvil	Also - confirming bug if you see the same behaviour - does not sync to GPS time. (some places do not broadcast proper times)	04:39
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DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: my comment was in reply to 10163	04:41
SpeedEvil	yes - there are time messages sent - they are malformed	04:42
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DocScrutinizer	:nod: carriers are known to send crap	04:42
jonwil	ok, so I have decided to put the following on my RE list: pulseaudio audio routing and policy control (those 4 closed modules), the IncomingCBS DBUS message, the ICD2 policy plugins, the connui-internet-status-menu-item status bar widget, the status-area-applet-battery status bar widget and the usb_plugin status bar widget	04:43
SpeedEvil	jonwil: Great!	04:43
jonwil	is it worth doing the cellular status bar widget (the other one I was considering)	04:43
SpeedEvil	I'm unsure.	04:44
SpeedEvil	I suppose in principle you could add cell-information to it	04:45
SpeedEvil	see the package netmon	04:45
Jartza	hmmh.	04:45
SpeedEvil	and 'live' signal strength.	04:45
* jonwil adds connui-cellular-operator-home-item and connui-cellular-status-item to the list then		04:46
SpeedEvil	I don't see much benefit in those though.	04:46
jonwil	ok, if there is no benefit I wont bother	04:46
javispedro	while we're at it, add connui-iapsettings-wlan	04:46
jonwil	connui-iapsettings is the package name	04:47
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javispedro	nope iirc, the're has to be a plugin per iap type	04:47
javispedro	*there	04:47
nox-	heh gpsrecorder got a quick fix, nice :)	04:47
jonwil	any other control panel/settings things worth cloning?	04:48
jonwil	doubt it	04:48
javispedro	well, you'll find reasons for any of them..	04:48
jonwil	the wifi I will do	04:49
SpeedEvil	The 'alarm' widget in principle could be handy for people writing clones	04:49
jonwil	since there is a use case	04:49
SpeedEvil	I'm not aware of any though	04:49
jonwil	clear use case	04:49
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jonwil	ok, so the todo is pulseaudio, CBSMS, icd2 policy plugins, connui-internet-status-menu-item, status-area-applet-battery, usb_plugin, connui-iapsettings-wlan	04:53
jonwil	is connui-conndlgs-wlan usefull for wlan stuff?	04:53
jonwil	I think it is	04:53
javispedro	if you're going to rewrite it, you can add the missing eap modes to it	04:55
jonwil	well my plan is to just produce a 1:1 clone of these items for now	04:56
jonwil	and let someone else enhance their functionality	04:56
javispedro	well, good luck.	04:56
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eichi	hello, is one of the big repositories down at the moment ? extra devel?	05:23
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nox-	its doing it again :(	05:54
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nox-	no hidden ssid notworks configured anymore...	05:54
nox-	wlan0: driver reports beacon loss from AP cf1bb52c - sending probe request	05:54
nox-	DocScrutinizer, or do you think i need to reboot the device too?	05:54
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DocScrutinizer	nox-: the comment about hidden SSIDs wasn't meant to cure this particular problem. It's probably unrelated	05:59
nox-	hm	05:59
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DocScrutinizer	I guess this issue is caused by AP missing to exactly schedule the times for TX to N900	06:01
nox-	well its unlikely to be the `ap' too, i still saw several beacon frames intermixed with each probe request/response...	06:01
DocScrutinizer	nox-: first of all, test if the problem vanishes when you set PSM in N900 wlan connection setting to "off"	06:02
nox-	hmm special scheduling reqs?	06:02
nox-	ok lets see...	06:02
SpeedEvil	the scheduling happens inside the wireless firmeware AIUI	06:03
SpeedEvil	And the AP wireless firmware - it's not low-level	06:03
DocScrutinizer	sure, on both ends	06:03
SpeedEvil	not high level	06:03
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nox-	still ap sends several beacon frames fer second and n900 still doesnt seen them sometimes, thats kinda weird...	06:06
nox-	s/fer/per/	06:07
infobot	nox- meant: still ap sends several beacon frames per second and n900 still doesnt seen them sometimes, thats kinda weird...	06:07
nox-	and n900 was constantly sending probe requests which the ap answered too...	06:08
pupnik	alien probes	06:13
nox-	haha	06:13
nox-	hm and why is it even sending probe requests when no hidden ssids are configured anymore...	06:17
nox-	and if its bc of n900 powersaving settings would that mean the powersaving stuff is kind of turning off the wifi rx behind the wifi driver's back?	06:22
SpeedEvil	yes	06:23
SpeedEvil	that's how it works	06:23
nox-	ooh	06:23
SpeedEvil	the radio is powered down for 95% of the time	06:23
nox-	well then i understand...	06:23
SpeedEvil	If it works - it's great.	06:23
SpeedEvil	I get ~a week uptime idle, connected to wifi.	06:23
nox-	just the constant probes it sends will eat power too, right?	06:24
nox-	well a week uptime sounds nice	06:24
SpeedEvil	It doesn't probe - it wakes up a few times a second to ask if the AP has any packets.	06:24
SpeedEvil	At a scheduled with the AP time.	06:24
nox-	hm	06:25
nox-	but it sends several packets per second for that?	06:25
SpeedEvil	I tried to read the details of the wifi spec, but my head exploded.	06:25
nox-	heh i didnt even read that much of this stuff yet...	06:26
SpeedEvil	I'm not actually sure if it sends, or if it just wakes and checks for a transmitted packet from the AP	06:26
nox-	well here it definitely was sending	06:26
SpeedEvil	It does have to send fairly frequently so the AP keeps it registered	06:26
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SpeedEvil	You get no syslog messages at all	06:26
SpeedEvil	when it's working	06:26
nox-	yes thats why i thought theres something wrong...	06:27
nox-	and then i saw the probes/responses intermixed with the beacon frames	06:28
nox-	which aren't there when its working	06:28
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nox-	SpeedEvil, did you have wifi powersaving enabled when you got the week uptime?	06:36
SpeedEvil	yes	06:37
SpeedEvil	without it's more like 20h	06:37
nox-	hm ok so this test isnt the desired config...	06:39
nox-	did you have powersaving on `medium' or on `max'?	06:39
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SpeedEvil	max	06:40
nox-	ok thats what i had before too	06:40
SpeedEvil	http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Software_Power_management	06:40
SpeedEvil	see script in	06:40
nox-	the one with the bq27x00_battery ?	06:42
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nox-	oh i also have power kernel could that have something to do with it?	06:42
SpeedEvil	it should work with and without bq*	06:43
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* nox- installs libicd-network-usb too while he has extras-devel enabled		07:07
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media	hi	07:16
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nox-	hm around 300 mA, 150 events	07:21
* nox- disables extras-devel again		07:24
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SpeedEvil	Is that with screen off?	07:28
nox-	no	07:28
nox-	and with wifi on	07:28
nox-	now testing w wifi and screen off	07:29
SpeedEvil	leave it running in an xterm, and lock screen	07:29
nox-	i just waited for it to turn off by itself	07:29
SpeedEvil	Or that	07:29
nox-	ah thats better, 15 mA, 70 events	07:30
nox-	now lets see w screen off and wifi on	07:31
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nox-	wow still 200 mA	07:31
nox-	and it wasnt even sending anything...	07:32
shamus	ok im thinking the battery is toast on my n800 as it's barly lastign a day in offline mode then agin i recived it with a 350ma charger vs the tipical hevy douty one as that lower power one is "eco frindly" go figure	07:33
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SpeedEvil	A 350ma one?	07:36
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SpeedEvil	That is not hte standard nokia	07:36
SpeedEvil	oh	07:36
SpeedEvil	n800, sorry	07:36
SpeedEvil	no idea	07:36
shamus	n900 might be getign the spotlight but n8x0 is still not deat yet	07:37
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nox-	n800 used a different battery?	07:40
kerio	shamus: they're both dead as fuck	07:41
kerio	the n900 is just less rotten	07:41
nox-	:)	07:41
kerio	why, nokia ;_;	07:41
nox-	ah 20 mA with wifi powersave on max	07:46
psycho_oreos	iinm n900 is the only one to have a different battery compared to the rest of maemo series	07:46
nox-	now ill have to wait for the bug to reappear ans check current then...	07:47
nox-	s/ans/and/	07:47
infobot	nox- meant: now ill have to wait for the bug to reappear and check current then...	07:47
nox-	psycho_oreos, oh	07:47
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psycho_oreos	nox-, and the previous generation had a slightly larger battery, were more readily available. nokia decided to twist our arms with a smaller battery and a completely different variant that shared with x6, 5800	07:48
nox-	:(	07:49
media	hey	07:51
media	i have openssh installed on my n900. should i set the root pw in order to login as root?	07:51
nox-	id say you should better disable ssh root logins	07:51
nox-	(if they arent already)	07:52
media	yea. probably better. can i create new accounts just with adduser i guess	07:52
SpeedEvil	media: you get prompted to set a password on installof openssh server	07:52
psycho_oreos	you should have gotten ssh status switcher package, that will prompt you to setup root password and provides you easy access to turning on and off sshd	07:52
media	SpeedEvil: i probably forgot	07:52
media	ok thanks.	07:53
SpeedEvil	hmm	07:53
nox-	and if you're paranoid, use ssh keys	07:53
SpeedEvil	I'd remove opensshd-client - then reinstall	07:53
psycho_oreos	its quite easy to disable root login anyway	07:54
media	removing and reinstalling	07:54
media	im trying to setup meego. need to scp the image to it :)	07:55
nox-	opensshd-client is to ssh out not to ssh in tho?	07:55
media	removed all	07:55
media	hm dropbear any good?	07:55
psycho_oreos	I thought it was just simply called openssh-{client,server}	07:56
media	yea i used openssh, but i saw another implementaion called dropbear	07:57
media	but im used to openssh, so ill stick to that for now :)	07:57
psycho_oreos	I've never tried dropbear, wouldn't know how to use it	07:57
shamus	never tryed drop bear eather	07:57
shamus	was wondering if it would hit the battery less	07:58
SpeedEvil	naah	07:58
nox-	yeah sounds unlikely	07:58
shamus	as im prity sure i have a roaug deamon or two chewiting thro my battery i know i diabled meta crowler and never enabled modest	07:58
SpeedEvil	the main battery use is keeping the radios awake	07:59
nox-	sshd should only use cpu when someone actually connects to it	07:59
psycho_oreos	transferring large files over sshd isn't ideal, nor are transferring any system files	07:59
SpeedEvil	I found out how to get modest to use much less RAM.	07:59
nox-	yeah ok transfers will eat cpu	07:59
SpeedEvil	apt-get remove modest	07:59
shamus	hehe good point i do npot even use it	08:00
shamus	ewhy have it	08:00
SpeedEvil	It uses ~10-20M of RAM IIRC if you don't use it	08:00
shamus	o.0	08:00
psycho_oreos	Ruskie had a more extreme maemo customisation, cutting down any stuff he doesn't need including all the other locales	08:01
psycho_oreos	might even free up more rootfs too	08:01
shamus	o.0	08:03
shamus	The following packages will be REMOVED	08:03
shamus	camera camera-test hildon-application-framework-rx34-rx44	08:03
shamus	libosso-email-interface microphone-test modest multimedia-applications	08:03
shamus	osso-filemanager osso-filemanager-ui osso-global-search osso-imageviewer	08:03
shamus	osso-software-version-rx34-unlocked	08:03
shamus	i think not	08:03
nox-	ok bug is back, now to see the mA	08:03
SpeedEvil	Odd - I was able to remove modest earlie	08:03
SpeedEvil	r	08:03
shamus	dilblo	08:04
psycho_oreos	you might be able to remove that single package by holding the other packages	08:04
nox-	hm 50 mA, still better than the 200 above...	08:04
shamus	holding?	08:05
psycho_oreos	echo ``<package> hold'' \| dpkg --set-selections	08:05
psycho_oreos	it prevents automatic updating and may prevent automatic dependency removal	08:05
nox-	still, 50 mA compared to 15... :/	08:08
media	hm, im in. i saw i already had an extra account. seems useradd is not there though	08:11
nox-	20 mA after reconnecting	08:11
psycho_oreos	media, it is, its under /usr/sbin (meaning root user required)	08:11
nox-	anyway, need to charge...	08:12
nox-	bbl	08:12
media	psycho_oreos: ah thanks!	08:16
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psycho_oreos	media, nw	08:16
psycho_oreos	SpeedEvil, any experience with fanoush's bootmenu?	08:16
SpeedEvil	no	08:18
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psycho_oreos	nods ta, probably fanoush's bootmenu has nothing to do with uboot	08:18
nox-	and the bug is back yet again... :/	08:20
media	hm, for meego i need to dd the memory card, but copying the raw image to n900 first wont fit	08:21
nox-	now even 70 mA...	08:22
media	should i dd over ssh?	08:22
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psycho_oreos	I don't think dd over ssh would work	08:25
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nox-	actually i think it does but netcat would use less cpu	08:26
psycho_oreos	you should get a media card writer/reader and dd the content across. There might be another way, that is to shove the image onto n900's /home/user/MyDocs partition	08:26
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nox-	anyway im off	08:27
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media	psycho_oreos: ok, ill try the last solution. i dont have a card reader	08:30
psycho_oreos	media, how big is the image?	08:31
media	1.9gb	08:32
media	u	08:32
media	i just need some way to ssh into the user account	08:32
psycho_oreos	that should fit easily onto the large 29GB FAT32 partition	08:32
media	setting a pw on user isnt evil?	08:33
psycho_oreos	no	08:33
media	great. its working	08:35
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RobbieThe1st	Hey guys, what device can I echo a value to to control the multicolor LED?	10:38
SpeedEvil	It'smore complexthanthat	10:38
SpeedEvil	http://wiki.maemo.org/LED_patterns	10:39
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RobbieThe1st	So, hm... without MCE running, how would one do it?	10:40
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SpeedEvil	http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_LED	10:42
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RobbieThe1st	Alright, interesting.	10:44
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jonwil	I am making some good progress reverse engineering connui-internet-status-menu-item	11:33
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SpeedEvil	:)	11:35
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jonwil	It helps that we have example_reminder_status_applet to refer to and that connui-internet-status-menu-item happens to be written similarly to the example	11:36
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mikki-kun	jonwil: may i ask what connui-internet-status-menu-item does? :)	11:38
jonwil	Its the status bar UI for WiFi	11:38
jonwil	or so I was told	11:38
jonwil	and someone wants to add signal strength reporting to it	11:39
jonwil	plus its something relatively simple to get started learning reverse engineering of ARM	11:39
mikki-kun	^^ then i wish you happy RE'ing and lots of fun :)	11:40
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Venemo	hey	12:10
Venemo	MohammadAG: ping	12:11
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psycho_oreos	Shapeshifter, ping	12:37
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SpeedEvil	Is there a source for replacement earbuds for the headset, other than the obvious?	12:52
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MohammadAG	Venemo, happy	13:04
MohammadAG	belated birthday	13:04
* MohammadAG stabs hildon for taking focus and pressing enter		13:04
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alterego	MohammadAG: pong	13:14
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MohammadAG	alterego, any ideas on how to lower a dialog's height in real time?	13:17
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alterego	setFixedHeight	13:18
MohammadAG	setGeometry(x(), y(), width(), newHeight) isn't working	13:18
alterego	Interesting	13:18
MohammadAG	it's for rotation	13:19
alterego	Whay are you doing this?	13:19
alterego	Ah yes	13:19
MohammadAG	it's fine from landscape to portrait	13:19
MohammadAG	but from portrait to landscape the dialog's raised	13:19
alterego	So you want to make it smaller?	13:19
MohammadAG	then the items are repositioned, so lots of space ends up between the items	13:19
alterego	I'd hide/show again	13:20
alterego	That should make it take preferred size	13:20
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MohammadAG	wouldn't that be visible to the user?	13:21
alterego	Probably, try it.	13:21
MohammadAG	and no, iirc we weren't deleting the dialog every time we close it, and I had the same problem	13:21
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alterego	Weird	13:22
alterego	Unfortunately I'm not at my computer so I can't test :/	13:22
alterego	brb	13:23
* MohammadAG tries setFixedHeight()		13:23
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pupnik	"The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far."	13:24
pupnik	"The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little; but some day the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age."	13:24
RST38h	Ah! The terror! The suffering!	13:25
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pupnik	Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn	13:27
* SpeedEvil does what Wilt does.		13:29
SpeedEvil	Or something.	13:29
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pupnik	the sciences, each straining....	13:34
* RST38h suggests a more mundane/terrifying scenario		13:34
RST38h	Science becomes a routine, making no progress. The economy becomes a routine, slowly making itself insolvent. The society degrades.	13:35
dotblank	MohammadAG, Are you working on portrait mode support?	13:36
alterego	dotblank: I'm guessing for mohammedia player	13:36
Termana	mohammedia player :p	13:36
MohammadAG	alterego, system-wide's fine by me	13:37
MohammadAG	:P	13:37
pupnik	RST38h: you seem to understand this better than almost everyone	13:37
RST38h	Humans do not go into space, as it is not economically feasible. The computer science stalls at algorithms for lots of sequential turing machines. The medical science stalls due to "ethical concerns"	13:37
dotblank	I should make my groove program a library much like w00t_ is doing	13:37
dotblank	that you can import grooveshark into your player	13:37
dotblank	that way*	13:37
* SpeedEvil hits RST38h over the head with a falcon-9.		13:37
MohammadAG	yay	13:38
pupnik	i trhink the medical science runs into the sheer complexity problem - the brain cannot absorb enough to make the deeper correlations	13:38
dotblank	what are you using for audio playback?	13:38
RST38h	So, the western society simply winds down, become replaced by more energeticand less fussy Asians	13:38
RST38h	pupnik: that is too complicated and based on assumptions	13:39
RST38h	pupnik: there are really much easier and no less depressing end-of-the-world scenarios =)	13:39
dotblank	Going into space I think will become very viable when we have a need for helium 3	13:39
RST38h	we will not have a need for helium 3.	13:40
dotblank	or was it hydrogen..	13:40
Termana	Gauging the channel's interest - how many would be interested in a karaoke application that displayed the lyrics to the song and done on-the-fly pitch correction, maybe some other audio effects? (like, Glee Karaoke if you have an iPhone/iPod Touch)	13:40
dotblank	tritium to be exact	13:40
MohammadAG	dotblank, mafw	13:40
Termana	Except not gay	13:40
alterego	There's a lot of balls about the N9 lately.	13:40
SpeedEvil	Termana: I'm not sure it's possible to have non-gay karaoke.	13:41
RST38h	Termana: nah.	13:41
Termana	alterego, balls? I think you mean rumours don't you?	13:41
RST38h	He means crystal balls. Don't you have a set?	13:41
alterego	I don't believe Nokia are going to move away from OMAP	13:42
dotblank	Why have I not heard of mafw before?	13:42
dotblank	odd	13:42
alterego	Nokia has a good relationship with TI, I can't see them wanting anything from somehwere else they can already get through their normal TI relations	13:43
Termana	RST38h, Ah, mines a bit dusty, but I think it's telling me you're about to experience some coffee enema	13:43
RST38h	Nokia has used non-TI chips in its Symbian^3 phones	13:43
alterego	dotblank: mafw is maemos' multimedia framework	13:43
MohammadAG	<Termana> Gauging the channel's interest - how many would be interested in a karaoke application that displayed the lyrics to the song and done on-the-fly pitch correction, maybe some other audio effects? (like, Glee Karaoke if you have an iPhone/iPod Touch)	13:43
alterego	dotblank: it's basically a dbus api for handling media, playlists and audio routing via gstreamer.	13:43
MohammadAG	only if you get a videos.maemo.org	13:44
MohammadAG	so users can upload their work	13:44
Termana	alterego, you can't get x86 chips from TI, if they intended to use x86	13:44
alterego	Termana: sure, but that's not this new rumour	13:44
alterego	And Nokia have shown no interest in atom	13:44
Termana	MohammadAG, upload their work? Who said I was going to let people create their own songs and screw up my app with bad music tastes?	13:45
MohammadAG	yeah, they only used it once - in a netbook	13:45
RST38h	alterego:Nokia has built an Atom-basednetbook before	13:45
Termana	Surely everyone wants to sing along to my collection of Justin Bieber?	13:45
Termana	:P (kidding)	13:45
MohammadAG	Termana, would be entertaining to watch users sing their library	13:45
RST38h	alterego: And they invested into Meego which is a primarily x86 based Linux distro	13:45
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MohammadAG	90% will go to the bin of course	13:45
alterego	RST38h: not for handset it's not	13:46
Termana	MohammadAG, songs would have to be pre-made. You have to have the lyrics and pitch correction in time with the music.	13:46
alterego	N900 and arm development is where it's at as far as MeeGo handset development.	13:46
MohammadAG	Termana, pitch correction? pfft, if your voice sucks don't sing :P	13:47
MohammadAG	<Termana> Surely everyone wants to sing along to my collection of Justin Bieber?	13:47
MohammadAG	KICK HIM!	13:47
* SpeedEvil starts playing Tatu.		13:47
RST38h	alterego:the "handset"is basically a UI on top of the base OS	13:48
RST38h	alterego: So, yes, handset too (see the Aava reference platform)	13:48
MohammadAG	the aava isn't exactly the best way to measure meego's progress :p	13:48
pupnik	http://www.sat24.com/homepage.aspx?culture=de current cloud patterns over europe	13:49
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kerio	isn't the aava incredibly l33t	13:52
kerio	?	13:52
MohammadAG	so your wallet thinks	13:53
pupnik	a weather 'widget' with satellite+radar for your current location would be useful + cool	13:53
MohammadAG	I thought there was one, but not a widget	13:54
MohammadAG	alterego, ta, setFixedHeight() worked	13:54
alterego	RST38h: I was merely saying that most development is on the arm side as far as handset is concerned.	13:55
MohammadAG	what would be a bit cool tbh, is a homescreen widget that allows you to launch Qt apps inside it	13:55
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MohammadAG	that way, all Qt apps are widget-ified	13:55
MohammadAG	of course, not all of them will look great	13:55
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alterego	RST38h: we can guess as to why that is, but it is the most important configuration for Nokia imo	13:55
* MohammadAG hmms http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=68760		13:56
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alterego	MohammadAG: exactly,	14:00
alterego	Nokia aren't going to use SE chips for a Cortex A9	14:00
alterego	They'll use the OMAP4 from TI ..	14:00
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MohammadAG	I thought the N9 was an OMAP3 anyway	14:03
ShadowJK	I'm still betting N9 is omap3 :)	14:03
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alterego	ShadowJK: yes, unless it's been scrapped	14:04
MohammadAG	it's a bit late to announce an OMAP3 device tbh	14:04
alterego	It was mentioned that it was an OMAP3	14:04
alterego	Not for Nokia :P	14:04
ShadowJK	The speculation about using the new and yet full of bugs omap4 are kinda funny but..	14:04
alterego	full of bugs?	14:05
alterego	What bugs?	14:05
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ShadowJK	heck omap3 had been used alot before N900 and we still had the rebooting bug :P	14:07
ShadowJK	and still don't have dvfs or pm in mainline linux afaik..	14:07
alterego	Possibly, but it's all being pushed there through MeeGo so ..	14:10
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pupnik	this is one of the better places to talk about mee(TM)go ;)	14:15
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pupnik	i'm pretty happy with omap3640 atm - very thrifty power consumption	14:16
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GrimSouL	hello world	14:17
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alterego	pupnik: me aswell, I see my N900 having quite a bit of life left in it.	14:19
* SpeedEvil passes alterego the ant-killer.		14:19
alterego	I've already done more with the N900 than any of the previous NITs	14:20
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alterego	and no sign of slowing down, speeding up if anything, with MeeGo work.	14:21
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pupnik	it's not impossible to imagine a use for dual-core phones though, esp for a high-end device	14:22
pupnik	i would bet whatever was slated for n9 is the 40nm OMAP 3640 @ 1GHZ	14:23
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pupnik	it's not like they have a magic skunkworks department generating systems-on-a-chip ahead of TI and the rest of the planet	14:25
alterego	Well, that's what they originally stated	14:25
pupnik	i never saw any statements	14:25
alterego	I'm sure we'll see dual core omap4s this yeah too.	14:26
alterego	..year	14:26
pupnik	mhm	14:26
RobbieThe1st	Kinda sad... I mean, if that's all it's got it's not like it's worth getting..	14:26
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RobbieThe1st	I can get 1.15ghz out of my n900, if I really try..	14:26
SpeedEvil	Is there a creditable link to what hw of n9 is likely to be.	14:27
SpeedEvil	n9 is intended to run harmattan?	14:27
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MohammadAG	SpeedEvil, yes	14:27
alterego	RobbieThe1st: why isn't it worth getting?	14:27
alterego	CPU power isn't everything ...	14:27
MohammadAG	they like to call it MeeGo/Harmattan	14:27
pupnik	for e.g. look how few people learned to do anything with the DSP	14:27
RobbieThe1st	Spending more money, for the same or less performance?	14:27
pupnik	a second cortex core means no-brainer multi-threading	14:28
RobbieThe1st	It's multi-tasking that's the big deal; not having it stutter when a flash file takes up half of one core	14:28
alterego	riiight	14:29
alterego	IO is my main gripe with the N900 tbh	14:29
alterego	It's more than powerful enough for me.	14:30
RobbieThe1st	That -is- true; having more ram would help	14:30
psycho_oreos	RobbieThe1st, any progress on backupmenu being made available for uboot? :)	14:30
RobbieThe1st	I don't know how it would be done, sorry. I -think- you can just use the bootmenu-n900 version along with uboot	14:31
RobbieThe1st	And when you boot into Maemo/internal flash from uboot with the KB open... it'll run	14:31
BCMM	alterego: yeah, practically nothing that most people do has been CPU-bound for years...	14:32
BCMM	CPUs are for servers, gaming and video encoding. fast IO (which is harder to get) is for boring things like starting programs	14:32
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RobbieThe1st	That's sort of my point too - With a nice dual-core 1ghz processor, heavy emulation and nice gaming would be possible. It's not -quite- good enough now.	14:34
psycho_oreos	RobbieThe1st, hmm ok, well I'm thinking of installing just backupmenu for now from extras-devel and without uboot.. after making appropriate backups I will go experimenting	14:34
RobbieThe1st	Fair enough	14:34
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pupnik	RobbieThe1st: emulation is about using the hardware efficiently also - see the work done for pandora - pretty much all doable systems are being done	14:42
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alterego	I personally prefer to code than play games	14:44
RobbieThe1st	Perhaps so. But if there's one thing I've learned about computer systems: If an interface is designed to run at X speed, you need X+2/3 to make it run nicely. For example, at 600mhz the N900 feels sluggish. at 1ghz, it feels nice.	14:44
pupnik	i'd say the same for froyo btw	14:45
RobbieThe1st	I have this feeling that Meego will be developed for a 1ghz processor. As such, in order to make it -really- responsive, we need far more.	14:45
pupnik	i had a responsive gui on a 25mhz NeXT	14:46
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RobbieThe1st	Yea.	14:47
pupnik	one way to do it is make your OS prioritize any gui movement properly	14:47
pupnik	windows 3.1 did it by giving the mouse a hardware interrupt	14:48
RobbieThe1st	That's true; Maemo is surprisingly good at that(at least for me)	14:48
alterego	MeeGo handset is being developed on the N900 and when it's configured well, it's a nice smooth experience, as far as transitions and ui components.	14:48
alterego	Better than Maemo for Qt suff	14:48
alterego	Unfortunately app start times are awful at the moment :)	14:49
RobbieThe1st	Just FYI - I was running Ubuntu on a 1ghz PentiumM with 1GB of ram; it's -far- less responsive than Maemo is.	14:49
alterego	But, scrolling a listview looks amazing under meego where as all the tear in maemo makes it look jerky	14:49
RobbieThe1st	(and Mer is -far- worse than that, for some odd reason[no GPU support?])	14:49
alterego	Probably yeah	14:50
ZogG	hello brothers	14:50
alterego	MeeGo has newer sgx drivers so that certainly helps	14:50
RobbieThe1st	Out of curiosity - Have you tried editing "/etc/powervr.d/hildon-desktop.ini" and changing the value to 1?	14:50
RobbieThe1st	It makes things feel more "consistant"(far less tearing), but a tad bit more sluggish for me.	14:51
alterego	I have not,	14:51
alterego	I might just turn transitions off completely tbh :P	14:52
RobbieThe1st	Out of curiosity, would you mind trying it(I assume you've got your n900 handy)? I'd love to see if it happens to more than just me.	14:52
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ZogG	how can i take screenshot in portrait mode?	15:31
ZogG	with scrot and timeout?	15:31
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lopz	hi ;)	15:33
ZogG	hey	15:34
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psycho_oreos	maybe if you're using matan's 9-desktop hack you might be able to with Ctrl+Shift+P	15:34
ZogG	i see the people are saving shabbas here =)	15:34
psycho_oreos	shabbas?	15:34
ZogG	psycho_oreos how can i as i open keyboard and get landscape	15:34
pupnik	no work! except to pick up poodles	15:34
ZogG	wait i can slide half keyboard	15:35
ZogG	wait	15:35
psycho_oreos	hmm there's an app you can get to set screenshot in a certain time frame	15:35
pupnik	why would rotation break a screenshot i wonder	15:35
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psycho_oreos	the other would be a very ugly hack and that is using x11vnc, connecting to it and then screenshot from the client side of x11vnc	15:36
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messerting	Hi, on my N900 (PR1.3) when I press "update" in the package manager there's no update, but if I do "apt-get update;apt-get upgrade" there is this libillumination0 to be updated	15:43
messerting	Is it safe to update?	15:43
psycho_oreos	depends on which repo that deb file is coming from	15:45
messerting	psycho_oreos: how can I tell? Can apt-get be more verbose?	15:45
SpeedEvil	As I understand it, apt-get upgrade canbreak your system	15:46
SpeedEvil	Or is that dist-upgrade	15:46
SpeedEvil	I forget	15:46
messerting	Tried -V option	15:46
messerting	Got 0.1.20100215-1 => 0.1.20100702-1	15:46
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psycho_oreos	dist-upgrade can break your system	15:46
SpeedEvil	Is upgrade safe though?	15:47
ZogG	pupnik cause you can't press buttons =)	15:47
ZogG	damn it mistery	15:47
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ZogG	i did make screensht	15:47
ZogG	but can't find it on device	15:47
ZogG	it's in photos	15:47
ZogG	but where on device? it shows that it;s in screenshot dir	15:47
psycho_oreos	messerting, you can append -s for simulate, it may then show where it retrieves the file	15:47
ZogG	but i don't see it	15:47
messerting	psycho_oreos: ok thx	15:48
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MohammadAG	<SpeedEvil> Is upgrade safe though? \| yes	15:56
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messerting	Ok, apt-get -V -s upgrade gives: Inst libillumination0 [0.1.20100215-1] (0.1.20100702-1 Extras:2.0/fremantle-1.3	16:05
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jacekowski	i bought vodafone sim to play with that cbsms	16:27
jacekowski	i was expecting that they will require my name or sometihng	16:27
jacekowski	and they did	16:27
SpeedEvil	Oh.	16:27
SpeedEvil	People of the UK!	16:27
jacekowski	but when i told them that i'm john smith they had no problems with it	16:27
SpeedEvil	Well - cheap people of the UK.	16:28
psycho_oreos	how reliable are their service over there anyway?	16:28
SpeedEvil	t-mobile is offering a free 'blackberry' SIM, with 500M/mo of data on it, activated when you top up 10 quid	16:28
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SpeedEvil	for 6 months	16:29
jacekowski	psycho_oreos: dunno i just bought it to test cbsms	16:29
jacekowski	as they are only uk network that is sending it	16:29
psycho_oreos	jacekowski, fair enough :) let me know if its shit because vodaphone is getting its arse raped down here ;)	16:29
SpeedEvil	http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/shop/free-blackberry-sim-cards/	16:29
jacekowski	where?	16:30
psycho_oreos	Australia, they're getting sued by many people for poor quality	16:30
psycho_oreos	poor quality, poor service	16:30
jacekowski	what do you mean by quality?	16:30
psycho_oreos	call dropouts, lack of connection when moving from a few metres, etc	16:30
jacekowski	as in crap signal	16:31
jacekowski	that's normal thing here	16:31
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psycho_oreos	and they had the customer's details database left open here too	16:31
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psycho_oreos	I wonder if matan released updated hildon-home	16:33
jacekowski	Jan 22 14:34:31 Nokia-N900 cellular: csd[802]: ISI_SMS .465545> resp_cell_broadcast_subscription(): Incoming cell broadcast receive status:0 OK	16:34
jacekowski	Jan 22 14:34:35 Nokia-N900 cellular: csd[802]: ISI_SMS .702941> incoming_cell_broadcast(): Incoming cell broadcast	16:34
jacekowski	Jan 22 14:34:31 Nokia-N900 cellular: csd[802]: com.nokia.phone.net: get_network_time_info returned: y:100 m:100 d:100 h:100 m:100 s:100 tz:100 dl:100	16:35
jacekowski	time is still useless on vodafone	16:35
jacekowski	Jan 22 14:35:26 Nokia-N900 cellular: csd[802]: ISI_SMS .548705> incoming_cell_broadcast(): Incoming cell broadcast	16:35
jacekowski	but cell broadcast is happening	16:36
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psycho_oreos	what was matan's other repo? not the my.arava.co.il one	16:42
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jacekowski	hmm	16:46
jacekowski	anybody familiar with dbus?	16:46
jacekowski	i see function processing that cell broadcast calling dbus_message_new_signal( "/com/nokia/phone/SMS", "Phone.SMS", "IncomingCBS");	16:47
jacekowski	something like that	16:47
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* SpeedEvil sighs.		16:53
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jonwil	getting somewhere with the internet status menu item thing, right now I need to understand the mysteries of gconf	17:12
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jonwil	Remind me never to take a paid job involving development using glib, gtk, gconf or related libraries, no way could I work with this stuff in a paid environment :)	17:14
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alterego	Why do you need to know the "mysteries" of gconf?	17:23
alterego	And what don't you get? :P	17:23
MohammadAG	QSettings/ini > gconf	17:24
alterego	QSettings doesn't have events	17:24
jonwil	reverse engineering gconf is a pain	17:24
jonwil	specifically finding out where different gconf entries come from...	17:25
alterego	Why are you reverse engineering open source software?	17:25
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MohammadAG	<alterego> QSettings doesn't have events	17:26
MohammadAG	the signal when a value's changed?	17:26
alterego	yes	17:26
MohammadAG	it's kinda neat, but meh	17:26
jonwil	I am not reverse engineering gconf	17:26
jonwil	I am reverse engineering something closed that talks to gconf	17:26
MohammadAG	gconf's open, why r.e?	17:26
MohammadAG	i know	17:27
MohammadAG	oh	17:27
alterego	jonwil: right, well don't say you're reversing gconf then :P	17:27
MohammadAG	i see alterego already mentioned that :P	17:27
jonwil	heh :P	17:27
MohammadAG	just string the binary	17:27
MohammadAG	you'll get all gconf paths as plaintext	17:28
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alterego	Yeah, that'd work	17:29
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alterego	Or, monitor gconf ..	17:29
MohammadAG	no need	17:32
trumee	OT:is there any way to get to a particular month in gmail.com	17:33
MohammadAG	jonwil, /system/osso/connectivity/network_type	17:33
MohammadAG	is the only one in the status menu applet	17:33
trumee	i want to find emails in March 2008. and i have to wade through all the emails clicking on "Older"	17:33
lcukn900	trumee advanced search works afaik	17:34
trumee	lcukn900: thanks	17:34
trumee	lcukn900: nice one. saved me lot of time :)	17:35
lcukn900	i hear that a lot.	17:36
HRH_H_Crab	bah	17:37
HRH_H_Crab	i think my usb could be on the way out.	17:37
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HRH_H_Crab	am i right in thinking that if it appears to be o.k. (you get an orange flashing light when charging and the usb icon etc) but it seems to not be charging properly, the connection could be working loose?	17:37
buntfalke	hi	17:38
ShadowJK	could be	17:38
HRH_H_Crab	bah	17:38
ShadowJK	what does "seems to not be charging properly" mean?	17:39
HRH_H_Crab	well it just took forever	17:39
buntfalke	How to configure the repo needed for http://maemo.org/packages/view/libicd-network-dummy/?	17:40
buntfalke	How to configure the repo needed for http://maemo.org/packages/view/libicd-network-dummy/ ?	17:40
HRH_H_Crab	i kept switching between the computer usb charger and the wall charger and it seems to be charged now	17:40
buntfalke	So, I can see the name, but what are the URLs?	17:40
HRH_H_Crab	im thinking that the connections not clean but at some point it connected well enough to charge.	17:40
ShadowJK	could be the dc adapter too	17:40
ShadowJK	There should only be a single yellow flash before the glowing starts	17:41
HRH_H_Crab	its strange	17:41
psycho_oreos	why are you using libicd-network-dummy when there's libicd-network-null?	17:41
HRH_H_Crab	because it was running while connected to the computer	17:41
HRH_H_Crab	and left overnight to charge	17:41
HRH_H_Crab	but as soon as i unplugged it, it signalled the battery was empty	17:41
HRH_H_Crab	so its like it has enough power to run, but not charge the battery	17:42
MohammadAG	could be bme being retarded	17:42
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HRH_H_Crab	now, i know that sometimes when the battery is too low you must charge from the wall	17:42
MohammadAG	happened to me last week	17:42
HRH_H_Crab	so id put it down to that.	17:42
MohammadAG	popped out battery and put it back in, 80 percent battery	17:42
HRH_H_Crab	yeah i had that once before	17:42
HRH_H_Crab	it wouldnt charge i popped battery - all good.	17:43
HRH_H_Crab	but this morning that didnt seem to work.	17:43
HRH_H_Crab	:\|	17:43
buntfalke	psycho_oreos: Cause that's in -devel and -dummy is in a stable, more trusted repo. Either way -- where to find the URLs for the repo? In case I want something else of it?	17:43
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HRH_H_Crab	however, as i say probably by blind luck it seems fully charged now.	17:43
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HRH_H_Crab	i might try and invest in a standalone battery charger and avoid using usb altogether.	17:43
HRH_H_Crab	:\|	17:43
HRH_H_Crab	bloody paranoid about that connection from all ive been reading.	17:44
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psycho_oreos	buntfalke, its in nokia-binaries	17:45
chiwawa_42	Hi ! I'm looking for a way to flash my N900 from anything else than windows. Any hint ?	17:45
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buntfalke	psycho_oreos: which is located where?	17:45
xDaReaperx	Hi	17:45
HRH_H_Crab	chiwawa_42: i think you can flash it from any os that supports tftp	17:46
xDaReaperx	is there any chances of running Java games ?	17:46
xDaReaperx	using MicroEmulator ?	17:46
xDaReaperx	more like .jar files	17:46
HRH_H_Crab	there is some key sequence that sets it up as a tftp client when you power it on iirc	17:46
chiwawa_42	HRH_H_Crab: great ! thanks for the hint, i'll look for a howto	17:47
chiwawa_42	about the OS image, is PR1.3 the latest avaible ?	17:47
MohammadAG	~flashing	17:47
infobot	it has been said that flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	17:47
MohammadAG	yes	17:47
psycho_oreos	buntfalke, http://repository.maemo.org	17:47
buntfalke	uh. facepalm	17:49
buntfalke	thanks psycho_oreos :-D	17:49
psycho_oreos	buntfalke, btw you need a token (once accepted to nokia's eula) for the use of nokia-binaries in scratchbox.. its under http://repository.maemo.org/dists/maemo5.0/nokia-binaries/<token>/nokia-binaries/libi/	17:50
psycho_oreos	s/dists/pool/	17:51
infobot	psycho_oreos meant: buntfalke, btw you need a token (once accepted to nokia's eula) for the use of nokia-binaries in scratchbox.. its under http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0/nokia-binaries/<token>/nokia-binaries/libi/	17:51
Venemo	hey guys	17:51
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alterego	Happy birthday Venemo	17:52
Venemo	thanks alterego :)	17:53
Venemo	alterego: how did you know? :P	17:53
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buntfalke	psycho_oreos: thanks. what would the advantage of -null be?	17:57
buntfalke	except for "it's free"?	17:57
psycho_oreos	buntfalke, it seems to be recommended as `better' when you are following the guides for setting up USB networking	17:58
* buntfalke read that, too		17:59
buntfalke	still dunno why though :/	17:59
psycho_oreos	you can't read the source of dummy, so how can you really trust it? plus you can't compare the two when there's no sources for dummy	18:00
psycho_oreos	I think the answer sort of becomes evident	18:00
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MrBawb	hm, anyone know anything about usb gadget mode? I'm trying to get my n900 to pretend to be a hid device. I have the gadgetfs module loaded, but everything trying to use it just segfaults	18:01
psycho_oreos	its much like using a proprietary driver which uses `black magic' to make it work versus an open sourced driver which hides nothing and can be made verbose to give you more control	18:01
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buntfalke	psycho_oreos: oh...the -dummy is not just non-free in the debian sense, it's even closed? I see.	18:03
buntfalke	thanks	18:03
jonwil	Can you run a GDB remote on the N900 device (so you can talk to it from a desktop GDB install)?	18:03
psycho_oreos	buntfalke, afaik from google searches libicd-network-dummy is available in nokia-binaries.. and nokia-binaries obviously means no source codes	18:04
buntfalke	jonwil: gdb has a remote protocol which you can push over virutally anything afaik. serial, tcp, ...	18:04
jacekowski	jonwil: you can	18:04
jonwil	ok, what do I install and run on my N900 then?	18:04
jacekowski	apt-get install gdb	18:05
buntfalke	jonwil: gdb :-)	18:05
jacekowski	it's all in manual	18:05
buntfalke	jonwil: it's nothing n900 special	18:05
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Arkenoi	something makes my phone incredibly slow after 2 days uptime.. could be crochik mycontacts..	18:06
jacekowski	nope	18:07
jacekowski	it's known problem	18:07
jacekowski	use swappolube	18:08
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RST38h	2 days? no.	18:13
RST38h	and donot use swappolube, it is90% snakeoil	18:14
jacekowski	isn't swappolube moving swap around?	18:16
RST38h	no	18:16
jacekowski	ok	18:16
jacekowski	psycho_oreos: everybody has same token	18:18
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buntfalke	jacekowski: haha, that's funny :-) i like that idea. (same token)	18:21
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TiagoTiago	hi	18:22
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TiagoTiago	do we have a GUI'd editor for the hardware keyboard on the N900 yet?	18:23
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buntfalke	TiagoTiago: i thought i saw one in extras? might misremember...	18:24
chiwawa_42	damn flashing procedure, I think I messed it up. N900 rebooted after the eMMC althoght i didn't ask for it (no -R). Now, sticking the USB cable while holding the U key does nothing. Any way to recover that ?	18:27
chiwawa_42	correction, it's back on the bcklit-less "nokia" screen with the USB logo, but flasher is still waiting for device	18:29
TiagoTiago	there is one for the symbols virtual keyboard and one for the regular virtual keyboards (which actually is mostly a text editor with error checking and a few other specialized functions), but not for the hardware keyboard itself	18:30
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jacekowski	chiwawa_42: strange	18:37
jacekowski	chiwawa_42: power it off	18:37
jacekowski	chiwawa_42: as in, remove battery	18:37
jacekowski	chiwawa_42: and wait	18:37
TiagoTiago	i remember a while ago someone here said there was one in the works, dunno if it still is	18:37
jacekowski	chiwawa_42: and try doing it again	18:37
chiwawa_42	jacekowski: yeah, just did that, i'm installing the flasher on a linux box instead of a mac now	18:38
jacekowski	ekhm	18:38
jacekowski	you expect it to work on mac	18:38
chiwawa_42	expectED	18:38
jacekowski	mac has so fubar usb stack that it makes me want to cry	18:38
chiwawa_42	well, thought the built a flasher for it, so it should have worked	18:38
chiwawa_42	but you're right, that was foolish of me	18:39
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* kerio flashed perfectly fine on os x		18:39
chiwawa_42	ok, starting over under linux, first step is looking good	18:43
HRH_H_Crab	chiwawa_42: apologies for putting you on the wrong path with my tftp nonsense and thanks to MohammadAG for putting you right!	18:43
chiwawa_42	FUCK, second command rebooted the n900 before flashing it...	18:44
HRH_H_Crab	chiwawa_42: from what i hear it should be pretty tricky to kill it, so just relax and keep going	18:44
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chiwawa_42	trying again...	18:45
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chiwawa_42	HRH_H_Crab: no problem, I corrected it when realizing tftp would first require an ethernet port and IP stack, so I looked for "command line flashing n900" and got that right	18:47
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chiwawa_42	great, it's back alive and up to date; It just scarred the shit out of me	18:49
RST38h	Minorly hilarious list: https://www.mozilla.com/en-US/blocklist/	18:49
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RST38h	javispedro: thanks for the radio! it is the first maemo radio that works for me	19:13
MohammadAG	what's it called again?	19:15
javispedro	cfmradio	19:16
javispedro	RST38h: recently updated to fix a bug where it scrolled madly on the presets list	19:16
javispedro	unfortunately the fix involved going deeper into the gtk+ madhouse so...	19:16
MohammadAG	why do gtk apps start up faster than Qt ones?	19:17
javispedro	because the libs are constantly keep in memory by the system	19:17
javispedro	*kept	19:17
MohammadAG	hmm	19:17
MohammadAG	when it says Bluetooth turned on	19:18
MohammadAG	shouldn't it actually turn on?	19:18
MohammadAG	oh, worked second try	19:18
MohammadAG	oh nice	19:18
MohammadAG	no headset requirement	19:18
MohammadAG	yay	19:18
MohammadAG	no kinetic scrolling	19:19
MohammadAG	this is awesome	19:19
javispedro	it has autoscan, and will name presets by the rds data when you first tune into them	19:21
MohammadAG	why does it have more than 107 labeled?	19:21
MohammadAG	I thought the hardware supported upto 107.9	19:22
javispedro	that's a not a client app problem, but a kernel driver problem. I just read whatever the kernel says for min/max.	19:22
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javispedro	on my region at least v4l says 87.5 -> 108.0	19:27
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MohammadAG	how does fmradio-wide gets all frequencies?	19:28
* MohammadAG ponders a modded kernel driver that exposes all ranges		19:28
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javispedro	they probably either do that or change the region on the fly	19:29
MohammadAG	broadcom radio chip right?	19:29
javispedro	yep	19:30
kerio	v4l-ctl can select all the supported frequencies	19:30
kerio	but even on region "Other" (which should support everything) the UI still doesn't show 108	19:30
kerio	it reaches 107.9	19:30
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MohammadAG	or Japan wide band	19:30
javispedro	which UI?	19:31
javispedro	with mine on stock europe I can tune to 108.0 just fine	19:31
MohammadAG	.bottom_frequency= 76000,	19:31
MohammadAG	.top_frequency= 108000,	19:31
kerio	the "FM transmitter" dialog	19:31
javispedro	aaaaah.	19:31
ds3	maybe it is just writing to the PLL registers?	19:31
w00t_	dotblank: if you want to use (or contribute) to libgroove in some way, you're welcome	19:31
w00t_	I don't have much plans to expand it, so	19:31
javispedro	kerio: I at least was talking about fmrx :)	19:32
kerio	ooh	19:32
kerio	i see	19:32
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kerio	who the hell uses that	19:32
dotblank	w00t_, alright.. its probably a bit outdated since the recent api changes	19:33
dotblank	but I havn't checked yet	19:33
w00t_	dotblank: it works, at least, I have no idea if it's in good condition though :)	19:33
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w00t_	(I spent last night fixing it)	19:33
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dotblank	Yea I really think libgroove is the way to go	19:35
dotblank	then you could implement a file handler too like groove://songid	19:35
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pupnik_	who has experience with PreENV?	20:12
pupnik_	http://www.precentral.net/x-plane-9 X-plane 9 for Palm Pre (prenv? N900 also?)	20:12
RST38h	yes.	20:13
javispedro	I love that one, btw.	20:15
* RST38h is going togive HAWX another try		20:16
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RST38h	javispedro: btw, is having a few old-style radio backgrounds completely out of the question?	20:17
MohammadAG	RST38h, open source, fix it :p	20:17
javispedro	the widget is rendered by cairo vector stuff, not by blitting pixmaps, so it might be hard	20:18
RST38h	Mohammad: currently having toruble fixing some non-open-source things...	20:18
javispedro	unless all you want is the background	20:18
RST38h	javispedro: All I want is the background	20:18
RST38h	javispedro: no fancy stuff	20:18
RST38h	And I think wazd had the right background somewhere	20:19
javispedro	well, I guess that should be easy enough, but I won't put it in the main builds (I personally prefer the current UI so far)	20:19
RST38h	why not make it optional?	20:20
RST38h	it does not change the UI after all	20:20
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javispedro	it depends on how gtk+ does it, I'm pondering if I will need to learn about how to make transparent cairo surfaces	20:21
RST38h	gtk has something like set_bg_bitmap	20:22
RST38h	for a widget	20:22
jonwil	RST38h, what non-open-source things are you having trouble with?	20:24
RST38h	jonwil: various things.	20:24
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javispedro	jonwil: so, how's your rewriting maemo thing going? :)	20:24
jonwil	heh, I am not rewriting maemo, just cloning a few usefull bits that might help people out :)	20:25
pupnik_	good	20:25
jonwil	still knee deep inside libconnui and connui-internet-status-menu-item	20:25
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jonwil	if libconnui-dev pacakge existed I would be much further along :P	20:26
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buntfalke	how to keep the screen from turning off after some time when /not/ connected to the charger?	20:30
lardman\|home	buntfalke: settings > display iirc	20:31
MohammadAG	javispedro, wanna hop on board? :P	20:31
lardman\|home	hey chaps, how's things?	20:31
* MohammadAG continues rewriting stock control panel applets		20:31
RST38h	lardman: gnarly!	20:31
lardman\|home	:)	20:31
MohammadAG	buntfalke, simple-brightness-applet, hold the icon in the status menu	20:31
* lardman\|home has just done oil change and brakes on his car, been a long day's worth		20:32
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MohammadAG	RST38h, groovy	20:32
buntfalke	MohammadAG: thanks	20:32
buntfalke	lardman\|home: that doesnt offer this	20:32
buntfalke	lardman\|home: only "keep illuminated when charging"	20:32
lardman\|home	buntfalke: gives you a timeout when not charging doesn't it? Also see MohammadAG's post above	20:33
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buntfalke	lardman\|home: ack	20:34
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jonwil	After I get somewhere with this applet (or if I decide to stop and move onto something else	20:39
jonwil	then I will have a go at battery appley	20:39
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jonwil	applet	20:39
jonwil	that is status-area-applet-battery	20:39
jonwil	which should be fairly simple	20:40
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johnsq	Hi	21:05
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DocScrutinizer	buntfalke: simple brightness applet	21:08
DocScrutinizer	oh	21:09
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DocScrutinizer	nm	21:09
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piggz	nightmare, n900 has now been in for repair for ~10 days! using an aged nokia 5800	21:17
Venemo	piggz: I agree, it is a nightmare	21:17
piggz	altho, nokia maps works! ;) .... closely follwoing the ovi maps thread	21:18
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Venemo	hehe	21:19
Venemo	does anyone have any experience with lvm?	21:19
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jacekowski	i do	21:21
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trumee	Venemo, any plans of bumping sticky notes to extras?	21:30
Venemo	trumee: yes	21:30
Venemo	trumee: it didn't happen yet though	21:31
Venemo	trumee: do you think the current release is stable enough?	21:31
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trumee	Venemo, i am using yellow notes now after a recent reflash. it was working well before	21:31
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trumee	Venemo, have stopped using things from -devel atm.	21:32
Venemo	trumee: ah, understandable	21:32
Venemo	trumee: you can dl the .deb from the package interface	21:32
* trumee has crazy logic that apps from devel screw up Sip on the device		21:33
trumee	Venemo, nobody had compaints about it on tmo	21:33
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trumee	Venemo, after your last update	21:33
Venemo	trumee: okay, you convinced me :)	21:34
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Venemo	jacekowski: the situation is already solved, but thanks :)	21:34
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MohammadAG	alterego, http://gitorious.org/qt-mediaplayer/rotatedlabel/blobs/master/qrotatedlabel.cpp :P	22:25
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DocScrutinizer51	~botsnack	22:57
infobot	DocScrutinizer51: thanks	22:57
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maemo__	hello	23:50
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ArGGu^^	hi	23:55
ArGGu^^	aa he quit already :S	23:56
ArGGu^^	spend whole day to figuring how to get current artist and title from maemo mediaplayer :S	23:58
ArGGu^^	via dbus I mean	23:59
MohammadAG	metadata-changed	23:59
MohammadAG	oh	23:59
MohammadAG	get	23:59
ArGGu^^	MohammadAG I got working	23:59
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ArGGu^^	but spend the damm whole day for it :S	23:59

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