IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2010-12-09

crashanddie_	what does MAFW provide, really?	00:01
crashanddie_	Looking at the garage project didn't provide a whole lot of details	00:01
crashanddie_	other than "Code moved to Gnome"	00:01
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MohammadAG	better integration with maemo, for a start	00:02
crashanddie_	and?	00:03
MohammadAG	we don't break half the apps using mafw	00:04
crashanddie_	not using MAFW would break apps?	00:04
MohammadAG	would make them disfunctional	00:05
MohammadAG	nicolai's home applet, alterego's IM updater etc	00:05
lcuk	no crashanddie_	00:06
lcuk	crashanddie_, what are you using them for	00:08
crashanddie_	hmm	00:08
crashanddie_	fair enough MohammadAG, didn't know MAFW provided that kind of interface too	00:09
MohammadAG	lcuk, you missed the project?	00:09
crashanddie_	no he didn't, he's avoiding it.	00:09
* lcuk not avoiding		00:09
lcuk	just letting it take shape as required :P	00:09
lcuk	see what things work and dont work seems to be going well	00:10
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DocScrutinizer51	last day I watched dbus while selecting some media in player. WOW what a funny SQL statement (though tracker's name for it is different)	00:13
DocScrutinizer51	so much for 'talking directly to tracker' - seems even mediaplayer does it	00:13
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MohammadAG	i'm off, night	00:16
crashanddie_	night mo	00:16
crashanddie_	MohammadAG: thanks a lot	00:16
MohammadAG	crashanddie_, for what? you're welcome though :P	00:16
crashanddie_	for putting time in on this	00:17
MohammadAG	well, it's either this or wasting time on something else, prolly less useful, like rock band	00:17
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DocScrutinizer	red drumset	00:21
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kamui	nice	00:26
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DocScrutinizer	honestly, worrying about tracker should be at very bottom of your todo list, when cloning mediaplayer. First have a decent file selector for accessing media via path, then have proper management of playlists, as in insert/delete/swap/stop-after/fade-over. Then use tracker to augment info/detail for media files with ID3 and other things, and finally you can have a sort order based on tracker solely - as an alternative to path&fs based sort.	00:26
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crashanddie_	yeah, but no	00:27
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crashanddie_	I get your point, and it would indeed be interesting to have a nice PoC running	00:28
jacekowski	just port amarok 1.4 to n900	00:28
DocScrutinizer	as a rule of thumb, if mediaplayer doesn't work or becomes unusable on a system where tracker got deinstalled, you severely messed it up	00:28
jacekowski	well, you need list of all files	00:28
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: ++	00:29
jacekowski	and traversing file system every time you want to add something to playlist isn't going to work	00:29
jacekowski	adding directly from fs is not the best way	00:29
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DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: duh, why?	00:29
DocScrutinizer	BS it's the only way	00:30
jacekowski	no id3	00:30
crashanddie_	wut?	00:30
DocScrutinizer	so what? none of my media has ID3	00:30
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jacekowski	all my media has id3	00:30
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DocScrutinizer	I'm not interested in that	00:30
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jacekowski	and i can only find it by id3	00:30
jacekowski	or by querying a db	00:30
DocScrutinizer	ok, so what?	00:30
crashanddie_	except, jacekowski and DocScrutinizer, we're not writing shit just for your use cases	00:31
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DocScrutinizer	that's the rationale why nobody may get a proper fileselector to get access to their id3-free media????	00:31
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crashanddie_	so stop being donkeys and keep the critics to a minimum, unless you really see us going awry	00:31
jacekowski	nah, file selector should be an option	00:31
jacekowski	but tracker based stuff should be a base	00:32
jacekowski	with better tracker	00:32
DocScrutinizer	BS	00:32
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crashanddie_	guys, the way I see it, it'll be pluggable	00:32
DocScrutinizer	as a rule of thumb, if mediaplayer doesn't work or becomes unusable on a system where tracker got deinstalled, you severely messed it up	00:32
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, come on, you are but one person, blended approach, lots of people like their catalogued media	00:32
crashanddie_	if a tracker with a db is available, we'll use it, and you'll be able to manually manage your shit	00:32
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crashanddie_	if no tracker is available, you'll manage your shit manually	00:33
lcuk	i don't and tend to like folders personally, but that shouldnt prevent it working from a proper catalogue	00:33
crashanddie_	(by telling it which directories to watch, etc)	00:33
crashanddie_	I use both tbh	00:33
crashanddie_	directories and ID3	00:33
crashanddie_	cuz I like the information, but I also listen to stuff on the command line	00:33
DocScrutinizer	crashanddie_: me too	00:33
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lcuk	well technically if the db retained path (I think it does)	00:34
lcuk	then it just becomes another bit of info in the database	00:34
jacekowski	crashanddie_: well but telling it what directories to watch == making your own implementation of tracker	00:34
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crashanddie_	no	00:34
crashanddie_	cuz giving it a directory is an instant playlist	00:34
DocScrutinizer	but that's not the point about proper system architecture has nothing to deal with making tracker a mandatory base technology for your app, without any justification	00:35
lcuk	scanning a folder full of music on desktop in realtime is reasonable thing to do on desktop	00:35
crashanddie_	DocScrutinizer: we're not making tracker mandatory	00:35
crashanddie_	DocScrutinizer: I don't know where you read that	00:35
lcuk	scanning same folder on n900 brings it to its knees	00:35
DocScrutinizer	[2010-12-08 23:32:00] <jacekowski> but tracker based stuff should be a base	00:35
DocScrutinizer	[2010-12-08 23:31:48] <jacekowski> nah, file selector should be an option	00:35
timeless_webchat	lcuk: i've been told that the scanner was incredibly broken in the n900 stack	00:35
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timeless_webchat	so in theory a non broken scanner would be much better	00:35
DocScrutinizer	it needs to be the other way round	00:36
jacekowski	lcuk: well, inotify would be so nice if it would work on umounted filesystems	00:36
crashanddie_	DocScrutinizer: yeah, and last I checked, jacekowski is about on the same level to this project as you are: badmouthing it.	00:36
lcuk	timeless_webchat, similar issue with image thumbnailing	00:36
jacekowski	crashanddie_: what about mediabox?	00:36
lcuk	and thats got one of the most optimised jpeg libraries on the planet	00:36
crashanddie_	lcuk: doing an ls on a 50-file directory brings the N900 on its knees?	00:37
lcuk	no, but you just said you like id3	00:37
timeless_webchat	lcuk: you won't find me claiming the n900 impl of anything is good...	00:37
crashanddie_	well, yeah, ever heard of threading?	00:37
lcuk	grabbing that from the media as you show the album	00:37
timeless_webchat	picasa otoh does give me media i can use	00:37
timeless_webchat	and it does indexing	00:37
crashanddie_	lcuk: remember winamp 2?	00:37
* timeless_webchat remembers winamp 1		00:37
crashanddie_	lcuk: you gave it a big ass folder, it just displayed the filename.mp3 initially, you could select, start playing, etc... And then, in the background, slowly, it would load the id3 information	00:38
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lcuk	of course crashanddie_	00:38
crashanddie_	that's all I'm talking about	00:38
lcuk	i understand the principle	00:38
lcuk	but even with winamp	00:38
lcuk	i used to have to close everything to even play mp3	00:38
lcuk	let alone catalogue it	00:39
lcuk	(early computer times	00:39
lcuk	pre ghx	00:39
crashanddie_	lcuk: I remember loading a 300+ list of songs on a amd k6-2 300Mhz	00:39
lcuk	ghz	00:39
crashanddie_	I'll be fucked if the N900 is slower than that	00:39
lcuk	agreed in principle	00:40
lcuk	canola managed very well without a catalogue afaik	00:40
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lcuk	speaking of which..	00:40
lcuk	gsoc this year was packaging canola for n900	00:40
crashanddie_	this is not difficult stuff, this is delaying loading the first 500 bytes of an mp3 file	00:40
DocScrutinizer	crashanddie_: well, I see I can delegate to you to defend my point - cya, me off for RL	00:40
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alterego	I like releasing software	00:41
alterego	DocScrutinizer: My package is adding an include and removing it when installed and removed to lircd.conf	00:42
alterego	I'm also using update-sudoers as one of the commands I needed wasn't added lirc :/	00:42
alterego	+by	00:42
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alterego	If you or anyone else has a 360 I'd appreciate testers :)	00:44
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alterego	anyhow, bedtime g'night folks	00:46
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GAN900	I don't know how people make at living of handyman-style IT.	01:45
GAN900	alterego, ok.	01:45
alterego	GAN900: ?	01:45
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ieatlint	you don't see how much consultants get paid then :P	01:46
alterego	Heh	01:46
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GAN900	ieatlint, oh, I do, but I don't know that I could bring myself to charge for it.	01:48
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alterego	GAN900: why were you addressing me? :P	01:50
* DocScrutinizer wonders wtf handyman-style might be		01:51
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ieatlint	i assume he means when a company hires a consultant for a very brief period, such as to aid in fixing shit, or a deployment, etc	01:51
ieatlint	a lot will do that, as it's considered cheaper than retaining someone with a [alleged] high skill continuously, when only needed on rare occasion	01:52
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alterego	Still don't know what I have to do with this :P	01:53
DocScrutinizer	alterego: maybe ok == gnite	01:53
alterego	Heh	01:54
javispedro	alterego: or he was merely pointing acceptance of your existence	01:54
alterego	I couldn't sleep	01:54
alterego	Yeah, he likes to tease	01:54
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DocScrutinizer	sometimes gan's comments sound a bit sinusitisoid lately	01:56
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alterego	He's oscilating between here and MeeGo a lot	01:57
alterego	At a seemingly low frequency too.	01:57
javispedro	... like most of us.	01:58
DocScrutinizer	hmm, meego goes mostly unnoticed here	01:58
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DocScrutinizer	seems useless effort to contribute over there	01:58
alterego	I was checking the latest test results, I think 1.2 will be my switch over point.	01:58
alterego	Probably before the release	01:59
alterego	I reckon 2-3 months	01:59
DocScrutinizer	meh, meego will be nothing different to maemo. Wait til useable, then try to find out how it works, and RE stuff as nobody cared to document or share basic design rationale	02:00
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alterego	Actually it's mostly all there ..	02:01
alterego	At least if you get involved now you can change things ..	02:01
DocScrutinizer	hahaha	02:01
trumee	guys, N900 wifi chip support broadcom or atheros better?	02:02
javispedro	????????	02:02
DocScrutinizer	really? we already reached the point where crap is implemented and now us suckers are free to "contribute patches"?	02:02
trumee	my wrt54gl got fried today. so i am getting an atheros based router.	02:02
javispedro	aaaaaaaaaa	02:02
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alterego	So you have issue with something specific in meego you think was designed poorly?	02:03
DocScrutinizer	...and google for documentation about what the F*CK meego is actually doing under the hood	02:04
trumee	bricked my router while patching openwrt on it. happy to see the sucker die. now i can get an atheros chipset and hopefully sip will perform better.	02:04
DocScrutinizer	alterego: actually, yes. The community design	02:04
DocScrutinizer	the TSG design	02:04
DocScrutinizer	the workflow design	02:04
trumee	but i have heard that wifi chips like their own brands then they do others.	02:04
trumee	hence was wondering about wifi chip in N900.	02:05
alterego	Oh?	02:05
alterego	Well, why don't you join in in the community office meetings?	02:06
DocScrutinizer	useless waste of time	02:06
trumee	i remember there was some bug report about tplink not connecting.	02:06
alterego	You seem to bitch more than proactivly participate :P	02:06
* trumee finishes his monologue.		02:06
DocScrutinizer	I couldn't care less to bitch about it	02:07
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alterego	What is it you actually want then?	02:08
alterego	In you perfect world :P	02:09
DocScrutinizer	what I want? Not hear any lame but-there's-meego excuses for anything here at maemo	02:10
alterego	Riiiight	02:10
alterego	That seems a bit pointless	02:11
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alterego	What's wrong with moving to MeeGo?	02:11
javispedro	well, one could dislike qt.	02:11
alterego	If it ticks all the boxes you like in a mobile OS	02:11
alterego	Sure, as lots I'm sure dislike glib,gobject,gtk	02:12
javispedro	since it is philosophizing time, I'm gonna throw in my fears	02:12
alterego	Unless you're developing ... What do you care? :)	02:13
DocScrutinizer	for now maemo is more open and better documented than meego, and I don't see that change any time soon. Not to talk about quality of system design	02:13
DocScrutinizer	or maturity	02:13
alterego	Maemo is not more open than meego	02:13
DocScrutinizer	hah	02:14
javispedro	when I ponder what attaches me to Maemo, I usually think people, hackability, and the fact that Maemo is the most desktop-like linux distro while still keeping reasonable usability.	02:14
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: ack	02:14
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javispedro	WebOS also has (for me) people, hackability, but..	02:14
javispedro	it is hardly the most desktop-like linux distro.	02:14
javispedro	custom window server, etc.	02:15
DocScrutinizer	where hackability is what I call "open in a sense of well understood and documented"	02:15
alterego	The same people are developing MeeGo, they are using what they know to have worked with maemo there aswell, with hindsight ..	02:15
DocScrutinizer	hahaha	02:15
DocScrutinizer	like fuvar braindamaged lis302 mainstream driver, compared to rather nice maemo counterpart	02:15
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javispedro	and my biggest fear is that right now Meego's "main toolkit" is a toolkit owned by Nokia itself.	02:16
DocScrutinizer	asking what'S the rationale to use a basically broken driver for accelerometer, A was: well it's upstream	02:16
javispedro	which might cause (in fact ALREADY causes) Meego to move away from being the most desktop-like.	02:17
alterego	javispedro: how so?	02:17
alterego	It's more desktop like than maemo	02:17
alterego	if not in the ux in the core os ..	02:18
javispedro	the sad part is that I believe this is unavoidable, because nobody wants to move desktop linux these days	02:18
javispedro	alterego: did you miss the "Meego is a distro on itself" part?	02:18
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DocScrutinizer	Q: and how's meego dealing with lis302 and other sensors? there's mce on maemo, you won't use that? A: no we use sensorfw, Q: where's that documented? A: google for it, noob. Maybe nowhere	02:19
ieatlint	i think one of my biggest issues with meego right now is that the sdk is only supported on apt-get, and yum/zypper distributions	02:19
ieatlint	whose brilliant idea was it to do that?	02:19
alterego	ieatlint: what else would you install it on? :P	02:20
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ieatlint	sitting here on gentoo	02:20
ieatlint	had no trouble installing maemo sdk, or for that matter meego 1.0 sdk	02:20
javispedro	basically, competition platforms don't seem so away now (they're also "custom linux distributions" running a toolkit owned by their parent companies)	02:20
DocScrutinizer	ergo: contributing to meego is futile effort for me. A bottomless timesink	02:21
alterego	Not intel ..	02:21
javispedro	that's why I also sigh everytime I see yet another thing that potentially causes a X11 application not to run as is on any Meego UX :)	02:21
alterego	Heh	02:22
javispedro	let's bring in the rotation example, as I have that one in mind	02:22
alterego	So you're just going to sit here and do what exactly?	02:23
javispedro	handset uses its own rotation stuff instead of X11 one.	02:23
alterego	And for how long?	02:23
javispedro	pros: nice rotation effect.	02:23
javispedro	cons: doesn't work with non Qt applications.	02:23
alterego	that's a good point.	02:23
javispedro	how can I convince anyone on Meego I find this stupid? even I'm not sure I would want to throw nice rotation effect just to run SDL applications.	02:24
alterego	Heh	02:24
javispedro	and unfortunately there is no sane way to do cool X11 rotation without SEVERE coding work on X11 itself.	02:24
javispedro	something that's out of my reach for plain time reasons.	02:24
alterego	Yeah	02:24
javispedro	so I don't rant loudly, because I understand that Meego shipping with no iPhone-like rotation effect would doom Meego to certain failure...	02:25
javispedro	but yet I'm not easy about it.	02:25
javispedro	(now replace "rotation effect" with all the other problems, and you get the full picture)	02:26
alterego	sensorfw seems pretty well documented to me, for a pre-release library ...	02:26
javispedro	yet another thing that's different from desktop linux.	02:26
javispedro	this time, because there's nothing equivalent on desktop linux.	02:26
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alterego	compiz?	02:27
javispedro	I meant sensorfw ;)	02:28
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alterego	sure, so? You don't need to use it in your apps :P	02:28
javispedro	but I want to.	02:28
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: full ack. The main goal in my book is "make any arbitrary app run on N900 with as little platform specific tweaking the code as possible". Meego TSG seems doesn't have this point anywhere on their aims list	02:29
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alterego	Why should that be a goal?	02:29
alterego	Okay, they've sort of missed it completely with mtf, but still.	02:30
DocScrutinizer	alterego: if you don't see why, then probably it's a waste of time to discuss it with you	02:30
alterego	We've never expected that from maemo ..	02:30
alterego	Why do you expect it from meego?	02:30
DocScrutinizer	I expect that from every linux	02:30
DocScrutinizer	and meego seems to become a ""linux"" much like android is linux	02:31
alterego	Well, you can, just don't expect it to be pretty ...	02:31
alterego	Rubbish	02:31
alterego	You can run what you want on meego, just don't expect it to iteract with the ux properly	02:32
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DocScrutinizer	aah, you say they haven't messed up the CPU instruction set yet?	02:32
alterego	We're moving to neon fp soonish	02:33
toresbe	DocScrutinizer: so you want even more badly-adapted apps for meego than there are for maemo?	02:33
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alterego	armv7hl	02:33
BCMM	DocScrutinizer: meego is going to be weird and nonstandard?	02:33
alterego	Which will be a nice perf boost, something maemo will never have.	02:33
toresbe	the reason it's different-looking is because it's a different user interface model... would you dismiss a Linux made for a process-control environment because it couldn't run OpenOffice?	02:33
alterego	I never thought desktop like meant what you think it does :P	02:34
DocScrutinizer	toresbe: you are free to adapt yur apps to any degree you like. I want to be free to take e.g. OOo and simply compile it and get a miniature desktop experience out of it, however unusable and bad it might be	02:34
toresbe	I'd happily accept a rot13'd API if it only meant that I could get good, well-adapted, well-integrated applications	02:34
toresbe	_why_?	02:34
javispedro	toresbe: and you're here and not on #iphone why? you quoted steve jobs.	02:34
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alterego	heh	02:35
toresbe	javispedro: I care about free, I don't care about "compatible with every single other free system"	02:35
javispedro	"I'd happily accept a flawed/reduced API if it only meant I could get good, well-integrated applications"	02:35
javispedro	Steve Jobs said THAT:	02:35
DocScrutinizer	toresbe: that's plain BS	02:35
toresbe	I don't want generic X applications running on my N900. I want a good N900 calendar.	02:36
javispedro	bah, can't find the quote quickly enough	02:36
toresbe	iPhone's API constraints is an important reason for why it's a better phone than the N900 in terms of the PIMey stuff. I'd be happy with a more specialized API, I just don't want a more _restricted phone_.	02:36
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DocScrutinizer	toresbe: so go ahead and code it yourself	02:36
DocScrutinizer	from scratch	02:36
DocScrutinizer	as that's what you need to do when there's no compatibility to whatever has been there before	02:37
toresbe	DocScrutinizer: That's a weaselly argument and applies equally well to your own line of reasoning. It's on par with "if you like it so much why don't you go live there"	02:37
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: there's no need to code it, he will just use Meego ;)	02:37
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DocScrutinizer	yeah, Nokia's meego flavour of calendar blob	02:38
javispedro	well, no calendar yet on Meego, but the reference handset one should be open	02:38
DocScrutinizer	as we all know maemo one was so great	02:38
toresbe	I don't want a blob, but I do want a calendar written for my telephone and not for my desktop and then shoehorned into my phone.	02:38
javispedro	wheter Nokia will use it or just distribute a blob "better" one...	02:38
DocScrutinizer	toresbe: you're no developer, are you?	02:39
toresbe	DocScrutinizer: Yes, I am.	02:39
alterego	it is open, and uses kdes calndar backend	02:39
DocScrutinizer	oh, sorry for you then	02:39
toresbe	DocScrutinizer: Dude. Just because we disagree on something doesn't mean you have to be a dick about it.	02:39
chem\|st	we should force something looking like orage	02:39
alterego	DocScrutinizer: you can run desktop apps just like you can on maemo ..	02:40
alterego	craply integrated without work.	02:40
toresbe	I don't want an iPhone-ey "this solution is what you will use and we know better". Nor do I want 10 different buggy one-person projects with truly horrifying UIs (the Spotifies for N900 spring to mind)	02:40
alterego	I was thinking today though, after someone mentioning skype..	02:40
javispedro	toresbe: but having none is unavoidable	02:40
javispedro	toresbe: you have to choose	02:40
alterego	That along with flash we probably wont have skype either.	02:40
javispedro	toresbe: between "we know better, use this" and having a fragmented ecosystem.	02:41
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toresbe	I want a fragmented ecosystem with good, standardized interfaces. :)	02:41
javispedro	fragmented implies buggy one-person projects	02:41
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toresbe	Sure, but it doesn't imply that they will all be that way.	02:42
javispedro	someone will eventually want to use, I don't know, Brainfuck to code an application.	02:42
chem\|st	n900 was the first 'ships with skype' mobilephone-computer-something so I guess skype will give a heads up for meego aswell	02:42
chem\|st	javispedro: caldav!	02:42
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toresbe	I completely agree with Steve Jobs on the argument of not installing Flash. 110%.	02:43
alterego	chem\|st: maybe	02:43
alterego	pfft	02:43
alterego	Why shouldn't we have it ...	02:43
javispedro	chem\|st: caldav is coded using brainfuck? =)	02:43
toresbe	Well, for one thing, Flash can't do shit on my N900.	02:43
chem\|st	alterego: if meego gets growing like they think it will skype will have their hand in game	02:43
toresbe	I've never seen a Flash app work satisfactorily on my device...	02:43
chem\|st	toresbe: flash can't do shit anywhere	02:44
alterego	chem\|st: but probably not in obs :P	02:44
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toresbe	Sure it can. Works nice on my desktop for the things open standards don't yet :)	02:44
javispedro	Meego will never have skype -- it's closed.	02:44
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javispedro	and Skype is not going to add a freely redistributable clause for no reason.	02:44
DocScrutinizer	and will stay closed	02:44
javispedro	now, device X using Meego might or might not pay Skype royalties/whatever they demand.	02:44
chem\|st	toresbe: I have a running 64bit linux and all I never got to work properly is java	02:45
DocScrutinizer	and crypted binary	02:45
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DocScrutinizer	:-P	02:45
alterego	javispedro: I was thinking under the same restrictions they ship their desktop version ..	02:45
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javispedro	DocScrutinizer: "security framework" shudders	02:45
DocScrutinizer	yooohohohohho	02:45
timeless_mbp	sp3000: so, hg qpop/pull/qpush seems to be a deathwish	02:45
DocScrutinizer	brrrrrrrrrrr	02:45
timeless_mbp	=> panic	02:45
toresbe	Much like in the world of politics, freedom is only a formality when you yourself cannot mobilize the resources to take advantage of them.	02:45
alterego	anyhow bedtime g'night.	02:46
toresbe	I have no freedom to use Google Calendar with my N900 because I don't have the time and skill to write an integration that works.	02:46
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sp3000	timeless_mbp: clearly you need something that works	02:46
javispedro	alterego: oh, I'd wish Meego would be able to convert the mobile application market into something vertical like the PC one.	02:46
javispedro	alterego: gnite.	02:46
sp3000	now that you've tried windows and mac, ... ;)	02:46
timeless_mbp	BeOS?	02:46
alterego	javispedro: me too ;)	02:46
toresbe	OpenVMS!	02:46
sp3000	I'm assuming you tried that already	02:46
timeless_mbp	i have OS/2 install media somewhere	02:46
javispedro	timeless_mbp: BeOS works!	02:46
BCMM_	HURD	02:46
* BCMM_ ducks		02:46
timeless_mbp	javispedro: I have a BeOS derivative too	02:47
sp3000	ducks sounds like a more plausible computing platform	02:47
toresbe	My VMS box doesn't. I powered it up the other day to counteract the effects of winter on my apartment.	02:47
* sp3000 ducks		02:47
javispedro	I was a BeOS user before a Linux one. I think I still have GoBe Productive around =)	02:47
timeless_mbp	nice	02:47
toresbe	I need to power up my IRIX box too, I'm freezing here	02:47
timeless_mbp	heh	02:47
timeless_mbp	irix boxes are good as space heaters	02:47
toresbe	indeed	02:48
toresbe	Actually I think I'll power up my PDP-11 instead.	02:48
timeless_mbp	you have one of those too?	02:48
toresbe	several	02:48
timeless_mbp	adding [ ] 43/2553 0h33m	02:48
timeless_mbp	sp3000: =)	02:49
toresbe	four in my apartment	02:49
timeless_mbp	adding [> ] 92/2553 0h22m	02:49
* timeless_mbp is happy		02:49
toresbe	more in the basement, which is why my back hurts now.	02:49
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timeless_mbp	adding [==========> ] 527/2553 6m04s	02:49
sp3000	timeless_mbp: the first 11 minures were cheap eh	02:49
timeless_mbp	yep	02:49
sp3000	but at least it's going the right way ;)	02:50
timeless_mbp	clearly a slow start	02:50
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timeless_mbp	yeah... vbox was funny	02:50
timeless_mbp	vbox was making progress but steadily adding time	02:50
timeless_mbp	1s, 2.... 50	02:50
timeless_mbp	at around 50s it changed to 0min	02:50
timeless_mbp	until it actually reached 1min	02:50
sp3000	so was the mac disk tool repair deal too fwiw	02:50
timeless_mbp	then it started adding seconds	02:50
timeless_mbp	lol	02:50
timeless_mbp	nice	02:50
timeless_mbp	adding [====================================> ] 1788/2553 1m09s	02:50
sp3000	it's ballistic estimation	02:51
timeless_mbp	adding [============================================> ] 2145/2553 0m35s	02:51
timeless_mbp	adding [==================================================> ] 2444/2553 0m10s	02:51
timeless_mbp	sp3000: so	02:52
chem\|st	toresbe: got 2 pdp11 at work and I would never ever think of taking one with me...	02:52
DocScrutinizer	http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Architecture/Top_Level_Architecture is really poor. For meego I'd expect something much better, with more detail and more discussion leading to consensual decissions about each detail. Fact however is I've not seen anything like that yet for meego	02:52
timeless_mbp	why would finnish captions translate 43 minutes into 45mins?	02:52
timeless_mbp	does finnish as a language not support minutes in units that are not multiples of 5?	02:53
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BCMM_	file a bug.	02:53
javispedro	well, check the grammar. I guess you can find it in EBNF format around.	02:53
BCMM_	now who maintains Finnish these days?	02:53
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sp3000	timeless_mbp: which captions?	02:54
timeless_mbp	sp3000: ncis: <california>	02:54
* timeless_mbp can't remember the right name		02:54
sp3000	oh, they're just really random with numbers	02:54
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sp3000	maybe it's the duck	02:56
sp3000	http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2349378/new-programming-jargon-you-coined/2444361#2444361	02:56
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timeless_mbp	sp3000: hey!	03:04
timeless_mbp	timeless-mbp:mozilla-central timeless$ hg qser\|wc -l	03:04
timeless_mbp	184	03:04
timeless_mbp	my qseries is <200 patches!	03:04
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* timeless_mbp grumbles		03:05
timeless_mbp	google chrome didn't save my session before the os panic	03:05
timeless_mbp	so i lost all my tabs	03:05
timeless_mbp	thankfully history works	03:07
javispedro	this reminds me that Linux used to sync before a panic	03:07
javispedro	not anymore =(	03:07
timeless_mbp	heh	03:07
SpeedEvil	Firefox saves	03:08
sp3000	timeless_mbp: 101+43	03:09
sp3000	you win :)	03:09
timeless_mbp	timeless-mbp:mozilla-central timeless$ hg qser -R ../comm-central/\|wc -l	03:09
timeless_mbp	29	03:09
timeless_mbp	timeless-mbp:mozilla-central timeless$ hg qser -R ../../intevation.org/hg-crew\|wc -l	03:09
timeless_mbp	28	03:09
timeless_mbp	timeless-mbp:mozilla-central timeless$ wc -l ../..///.hg/patches/series	03:10
timeless_mbp	294 total	03:10
DocScrutinizer	mrmoku seems is about to teach uboot how to play nice with N900 wd :-)	03:11
DocScrutinizer	I'll throw in a dirty charger, prior to publishing it	03:11
timeless_mbp	there's also 32 patches to transifex	03:12
timeless_mbp	but i hope those are all obsolete	03:12
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Yigal	hey dudes	04:31
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Yigal	really	04:32
Yigal	owell	04:32
Yigal	that's sad but I can deal	04:32
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javispedro	??	04:39
* GAN900 yawns.		04:39
javispedro	did you just said "that's said" to a leaving message? :)	04:39
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javispedro	*sad	04:39
blackthorne	hi	04:39
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Yigal	hello	04:49
Yigal	it's just that Maemo was so awsome	04:49
Yigal	N900 hurt that	04:50
Yigal	then Meego	04:50
Yigal	well anyways	04:50
Yigal	you all know the rest	04:50
Yigal	we have our N900s	04:50
Yigal	but it could have been way better	04:50
Yigal	never again Nokia	04:50
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blackthorne	n900 doesn't support MMS. I feel cheated, considering this is the Nokia shark for me	04:51
blackthorne	other than that, hell of a machine	04:51
Yigal	it's the most solid open source well funded project	04:51
Yigal	so sad	04:51
blackthorne	why sad?	04:52
Yigal	"We aren't going to support you", Nokia	04:52
Yigal	Meego time	04:52
Yigal	lol	04:52
Yigal	imo	04:52
blackthorne	Meego time, is going to take time	04:52
Yigal	exactly	04:52
Yigal	why not support us in the mean time	04:53
Yigal	lol	04:53
Yigal	it's ok	04:53
blackthorne	but is it official that the N900 will not officialy support MeeGo?	04:53
blackthorne	I use Mac OS X and the N900 made me miss GNU/Linux as my desktop OS	04:54
Yigal	having a phone that can bt anything on piratebay etc. is fine with me	04:54
blackthorne	"phone", well yes N900 also makes calls	04:55
Yigal	ssh, c, c++, fortran, maxima, etc	04:55
Yigal	blackthorne: lol	04:55
blackthorne	to be perfect, it would be the iPhone4 hardware with a removable battery and sliding keyboard	04:56
blackthorne	I mean, thinner and with better touch UI	04:56
Yigal	what I would have wanted is roughly the specs of the viliv s5 that works well with open source/linux etc.	04:56
Yigal	viliv s5 has an atom proc. 1.33mhz and I have 2gb of ram	04:57
Yigal	that's what I wanted	04:57
Yigal	forget the galexy tab forget the droid linux time, that would have killed	04:58
luke-jr	blackthorne: sliding kb ftl	04:58
luke-jr	Yigal: AFAIK, no Atom works well with open source/Linux	04:59
luke-jr	they all(?) have GMA500 which has no 3D accel for Linux/open	04:59
Yigal	950 works fine	04:59
Yigal	500 is the sticking point	04:59
luke-jr	some atom have 950?	05:00
Yigal	sure my asus netbook does	05:00
Yigal	well my non tablet netbook does	05:00
Yigal	my tablet has the mthr f*ng 500 my t91mt	05:01
Yigal	I have to use windows 7 with it so sad	05:01
Yigal	the EMGD is almost there I here	05:02
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Yigal	s/here/hear	05:02
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Yigal	sorry about the obscenity but it's important to me	05:03
Yigal	ok sorry	05:03
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chx	luke-jr: huh?	05:03
chx	luke-jr: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsVideoCardsPoulsbo/ study the 3D column.	05:04
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blackthorne	back	05:06
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blackthorne	maybe steve is right, flash just crashed my linux machine, at least the UI	05:07
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blackthorne	this vilic s5 looks awesome indeed	05:08
blackthorne	viliv	05:09
luke-jr	chx: Ubuntu likes to swap Linux out for proprietary forks of it when they feel like it	05:09
chx	that's totally not the case in this case.... but, as you wish	05:10
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luke-jr	chx: then show me the source	05:10
luke-jr	that page itself says it is closed	05:10
luke-jr	" Due to partial close nature of the driver, because Intel has not released an open source driver"	05:11
javispedro	luke-jr: some atom have gma950 or descendants (gma3150 is the one on the meegoconf lenovos)	05:11
javispedro	conveniently, gma950 works with the i915 driver...	05:12
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chx	you said " Ubuntu likes to swap Linux out for properitary forks of it" -- this is something I do not even want to begin to debate.	05:13
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chx	this basically says there is a "Linux" and there are "properitary forks" of it. Really, whatever, Despite being an open source for more than six years now, I did not become a zealot. There is no point in debating zealotry.	05:14
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chx	*open source programmer	05:14
luke-jr	that is the reality	05:15
chx	Your reality, of course. There is another, of course :)	05:16
luke-jr	nonsense	05:16
luke-jr	there is one reality	05:17
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luke-jr	it only seems like there are multiple to someone who is delusional	05:17
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ieatlint	there are multiple realities	05:29
ieatlint	i see people all the time experiencing them	05:29
b-man`	it's amazing what a little robotic helicopter can do :) http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8O5RBcwmjY	05:29
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Termana	Good morning	06:07
luke-jr	ieatlint: delusions are not realities	06:12
eggonlea	DocScrutinizer: Thanks, I guess the battery is too low. Charging the BL-5J in N810 - thanks someone's post in internet and Quim.	06:13
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GAN900	luke-jr, difficult thing to objectively measure.	06:27
ieatlint	yeah, i'd say reality is extremely subjective	06:28
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GAN900	Now, try sitting in front of a mirror and saying your own name 100 times slowly.	06:29
luke-jr	GAN900: measurement is another matter :_	06:30
luke-jr	☺	06:30
GAN900	luke-jr, did you bring this damn cold weather down with you?	06:31
luke-jr	GAN900: sorry ☹	06:34
DocScrutinizer	eggonlea: good :-) and welcome	06:41
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DocScrutinizer	~xyawn	06:55
infobot	extra, extra, read all about it, xyawn is coffee	06:55
DocScrutinizer	~botsnack	06:55
infobot	DocScrutinizer: :)	06:55
MohammadAG	morning	06:55
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DocScrutinizer	mo moh	07:03
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Jay_BEE	hola	07:11
blackthorne	hi	07:12
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johnx	~lart phone companies	07:30
* infobot pries phone companies's back open with a screwdriver and flashes a new bootldr to phone companies		07:30
johnx	I wish it was that simple infobot, but thanks for the thought	07:30
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lolloo	guys what are these?	08:07
lolloo	http://img.techpowerup.org/101209/Capture2001.jpg	08:07
lolloo	are they somekind of recording?	08:08
johnx	some kind of control for switching which camera is used by default	08:09
lolloo	alright.	08:09
RST38h	moo all	08:13
RST38h	morning/night johnx	08:13
johnx	mornin' RST38h	08:14
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MikaT	lolloo, johnx: I believe the picture is about a package called "maemo5-load-applet", and the camera icon on the right if for taking a screenshot.	08:15
johnx	ah, maybe so then. thanks	08:15
lolloo	I still need to scroll down to get to flashlight	08:18
lolloo	but in the screenshot it seems constant	08:18
lolloo	how can I make all apear without scrolling the status menu?	08:18
lolloo	I have 5 lines including the battery, but the sixth line is hidden	08:19
lolloo	needs scrolling down more.	08:20
sleepee	hello people	08:20
sleepee	are there any developers here?	08:20
johnx	what kind of developers are you looking for?	08:21
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MikaT	lolloo: I suppose you have lots of packages installed which add their icon there. Not all apps do that, but some do.	08:22
sleepee	anybody that develops for n900... python specifically.	08:22
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lolloo	hehe	08:22
sleepee	i was just curious if anybody's used illumination software creator to make apps for the n900..	08:23
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Gh0sty	hmm swappolube crashes when started	08:33
Gh0sty	is there a way to debug this actually ... why an application is crashing? :/	08:34
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Gh0sty	actually what am i asking ... first look at the logs :x	08:36
johnx	try and run it from an xterm	08:37
Gh0sty	hmmm	08:37
Gh0sty	lastlog is 8.4 MB but a tail -50 lastlog gives nothing???? :/	08:37
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DocScrutinizer	lolloo: johnx: the left one is for screencasts (taking video screenshots), the right one is triggering a picture screenshot	08:40
johnx	cute	08:40
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johnx	I ASSumed, and it seems I was wrong :)	08:40
lolloo	awesome	08:40
lolloo	I thought it would be something related to streaming camera over to pc	08:41
DocScrutinizer	and yes, it's a icing on top of load applet	08:41
Gh0sty	where the sip module implements api v8.0 but the pyqt4gui module requires api v7.1	08:42
Gh0sty	????	08:42
DocScrutinizer	not that screen video works exceptionally well for me. I get jumps and dropouts that make it basically worthless	08:42
DocScrutinizer	kinda fast forward video	08:43
Gh0sty	i need to upgrade PyQT or something?	08:43
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Gh0sty	already been thinking to scratch my whole n900	08:45
Gh0sty	and start over from a new install :/	08:45
Gh0sty	but reinstalling all applications ...	08:45
Gh0sty	restoring a backup probably drags in dirty stuff? :/	08:45
DocScrutinizer	...is a snap with backup app	08:45
Gh0sty	so i better export a package list?	08:45
Gh0sty	nono i mean scratch as in complete reflash the whole thing	08:46
APTX	it drags in your contacts	08:46
DocScrutinizer	backup app is just doing that: keeping a list of apps to re-install	08:46
Gh0sty	I think it got corrupted and gui settings? :p	08:46
Gh0sty	damn sorry	08:47
Gh0sty	and the gui layout ?	08:47
Gh0sty	is that kept?	08:47
APTX	yes	08:47
johnx	you can tell backup to keep or not keep various different things	08:47
DocScrutinizer	how about simply starting it and see for yourself?	08:47
johnx	when I backup-reflash-restore, I choose to only restore contacts, events and conversations usually	08:47
Gh0sty	DocScrutinizer: well I did not consider yet to reflash	08:48
Gh0sty	but lately it got screwed up so much ... :/	08:48
DocScrutinizer	Gh0sty: so what? it's not forbidden to use backup/restore any time you like	08:48
Gh0sty	ok :P	08:49
DocScrutinizer	and honestly, if a restore of a backup taken 5 minutes before would alter your system, then you really had a reason to bitch at Nokia	08:49
Gh0sty	you gave me confidence ... this weekend I'll reflash :)	08:49
Gh0sty	I'm always a bit afraid to start over ... on desktops the same ... :)	08:49
Gh0sty	but especially on my phone :p	08:50
DocScrutinizer	Gh0sty: Did I suggest to reflash?? o.O I said you should start backup app and make yourself comfortable with it	08:50
Gh0sty	I guess for you guys thats in a blink of an eye :p	08:50
Gh0sty	nono I have backups thats not the problem ... it's just I never tried a restore before either ...	08:51
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Gh0sty	usually upgrading just resolves most issues	08:51
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DocScrutinizer	so why don't you just do that?	08:51
Gh0sty	I will but for now I still want to be able to work ;p	08:51
DocScrutinizer	restoring to the system state of now-5min must not do any harm, no?	08:51
Gh0sty	no :)	08:52
DocScrutinizer	then you know what you're going to face when you do a restore after flashing	08:53
DocScrutinizer	which should make you feel much less scared	08:53
Gh0sty	ah so swappolube is missing the pyqt dependency ... :p	08:53
Gh0sty	thats the solution	08:53
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lolloo	http://img.techpowerup.org/101209/Capture2002.jpg	08:54
lolloo	guys how can i rmove the battery from there?V	08:55
lolloo	remove*	08:55
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* DocScrutinizer is wondering who's maintaining backup app. Should learn to strongly recommend to user to do a backup prior to a restore run		09:00
DocScrutinizer	backupA... <time goes by>... backupB-then-restoreA, <check if state A is what you expected>->(NO):backupC-then-restoreB	09:02
DocScrutinizer	lolloo: MohammadAG managed to do that, it's actually not that complicated. But... do you really want to do that?	09:03
lolloo	yes I do please	09:03
lolloo	I need more space for other applets	09:04
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lolloo	I tried powatool, but it removes also the battery on top	09:04
DocScrutinizer	yes, there's no other way afaik	09:04
lolloo	I just need the one in the menu to leave	09:04
lolloo	oh	09:04
DocScrutinizer	that's why I asked if you're sure	09:04
lolloo	hehe	09:05
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lolloo	DocScrutinizer, thanks.	09:05
DocScrutinizer	yw	09:05
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DocScrutinizer	actually the menu is scrollable. Except when you try to drag the simple brightness applet volumeslider (a BUG! duh!)	09:06
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lolloo	hehe now I noticed	09:07
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DocScrutinizer	I have to say the notification about the fact there's some content out of view and you need to scroll, is poor. Wait ... is there any?	09:08
lolloo	I agree, but we are half way there.	09:08
DocScrutinizer	another flaw? or qualifies this as a veritable bug as well?	09:08
lolloo	no I call it little tweak	09:09
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lolloo	ok what about the volume bar?	09:10
lolloo	can it be removed?	09:10
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DocScrutinizer	probably	09:10
DocScrutinizer	when you shut down PA :-P	09:10
lolloo	I dont think I will need it, I can use the buttons	09:10
DocScrutinizer	no sound -> no volume slider :-P	09:10
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DocScrutinizer	I seem to remember a file where sort order of those buttons in system menu is defined. Maybe it can do other things as well	09:12
DocScrutinizer	or was that positioning of the tiny icons in systray only?	09:13
lolloo	/usr/share/applications/hildon-status-menu/	09:13
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eggonlea	DocScrutinizer: Just FYI. N900 gets back to work with the latest Maemo. Thanks again! Would try MeeGo tomorrow...	09:43
DocScrutinizer	thnaks	09:44
DocScrutinizer	HAHAHA	09:45
DocScrutinizer	IroN900:~# gupdatedb	09:45
DocScrutinizer	find: unrecognized: -fstype	09:45
DocScrutinizer	BusyBox v1.10.2 (Debian 3:1.10.2.legal-1osso30+0m5) multi-call binary	09:45
DocScrutinizer	~lart busybox	09:45
* infobot pulls out a ClueBat (tm) and thwaps busybox		09:45
* DocScrutinizer is waiting - bat in his hands - for the first one to say "you're supposed to use tracker for that, not locate"		09:48
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tybollt	hmm	09:49
tybollt	is it clear yet whether there will be a maemo 6 or not?	09:49
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DocScrutinizer	isn't that called meego HE?	09:50
johnx	DocScrutinizer, nah. I think that's something else	09:50
johnx	or something	09:50
johnx	gah, I don't even know anymore. forget I said anything	09:50
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pupnik	nokia, remember how some of us were saying 'build a larger internet tablet' 3-4 years ago?	10:18
pupnik	iPad	10:18
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tybollt	nokla lusers speak -> the cult of apple listens	10:25
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djszapi	someone with archlinux and automatical usbnetworking here ? http://pastie.org/1361250 => I would like to implement this operation in archlinux, basically.	10:27
trx	anyone knows if a "Y cable" actually works with n900 ?	10:27
DocScrutinizer	yes, it does	10:28
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crashanddie	trx, yes, but the N900 keeps answering "BCUZ" on the data line.	10:28
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DocScrutinizer	charging of N900 in hostmode not implemented in h-e-n yet	10:28
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trx	oh, so no use for it yet?	10:29
DocScrutinizer	but you can power peripherals and save N900 battery	10:29
trx	and if i use active hub	10:29
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trx	will n900 conserve the energy	10:30
trx	or send it anyways?	10:30
DocScrutinizer	actually if you don't hit the [VBUS] button in h-e-n GUI and instead apply external power at that moment, it should also wok	10:30
DocScrutinizer	work	10:30
DocScrutinizer	charging still is disabled	10:31
tybollt	~h-e-n	10:31
tybollt	~thwap	10:31
infobot	i heard thwap is /me thwaps $1	10:31
DocScrutinizer	as h-e-n has to stop bme, and so the N900 will run off battery	10:32
trx	yeah	10:32
DocScrutinizer	this will change this year	10:32
trx	looking forward to it :)	10:32
DocScrutinizer	so, a Y-cable is a good idea anyway	10:32
Arkenoi	where can i get one?	10:33
DocScrutinizer	most external drives come with a Y-cable	10:34
Arkenoi	http://milliways.chance.ru/~ark/images/hostmode.jpg it is the thing i use now, costs about $3	10:34
DocScrutinizer	OUCH! the poor usb receptacle	10:35
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DocScrutinizer	seems you still have warranty :-P	10:35
Arkenoi	til April, my fitst n900 was stolen so i bought new one this spring :-)	10:36
DocScrutinizer	hmm, I wonder if they will replace it when you rip off the receptacle like that	10:37
trx	im waiting for the same thing to arrive	10:38
trx	but use cable instead	10:38
trx	(dont want to rip the port out :) )	10:38
DocScrutinizer	yeah	10:38
trx	let me show you what i use now :D	10:38
trx	sec	10:38
RST38h	EHLO all	10:40
RST38h	Hey Arkenoi	10:40
Arkenoi	this thingie is tiny, though, so i may carry it with me just always	10:40
DocScrutinizer	trx: you also can try if bme behaves when on hostmode with external VBUS. Just do a `start bme` and see if hostmode stays while charging kicks in. You might see strange effects though	10:40
Arkenoi	anything bigger like cable will prbably stay at home most of the time	10:41
Arkenoi	rst38h	10:41
* DocScrutinizer waves and heads out for breakfast		10:41
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trx	DocScrutinizer ill try that, good idea	10:43
trx	look at my adapter :D	10:44
trx	http://yfrog.com/jm20101209001xj	10:44
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pupnik	well http://paypal.com is now down	10:49
dolp	:D	10:49
crashanddie	note: I made a paypal payment 8 minutes ago with no issues	10:49
tybollt	pupnik: the wikileaks-emo-bunch that is killing them?	10:50
pupnik	i suspected this might happen yes	10:50
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tybollt	<-- from .se, and not really proud of the .se DOJ :-\|	10:50
MohammadAG	lolloo, no, you don't want to do it	10:51
pupnik	well .se has plenty of great free-speech advocates	10:51
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MohammadAG	the applet is needed for "Charging" "Battery low" etc notifications	10:51
MohammadAG	anyways	10:51
MohammadAG	/usr/share/applications/hildon-status-menu or sth	10:51
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MohammadAG	mv the .desktop file	10:52
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RST38h	OMG they took out paypal :)	10:54
Jaffa	Morning, all	10:58
Jaffa	MohammadAG: Presumably there's a Qt interface to Tracker. Harmattan must be using it, for example ;-)	10:58
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tybollt	what does harmattan mean these days, maemo 6 or meego?	11:00
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ieatlint	yes	11:01
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ieatlint	"hybrid edition" is i believe what they're calling it	11:01
ieatlint	harmattan isn't meego, isn't maemo... but somewhere in between	11:02
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ieatlint	(and rumour has it will be what's featured on the n9)	11:02
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DocScrutinizer	Jaffa: why should there be a Qt interface? Tracker has a dbus interface	11:08
RST38h	Doc: To be able to stop tracker by pressing the large red button	11:09
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RST38h	Labelled "Die. Die! DIE already!"	11:09
tybollt	RST38h: 'manager mode'? ;)	11:09
* RST38h considers removing AllAboutSymbian from his RSS feed. The site has become really desperate lately.		11:10
pupnik	lol	11:11
tybollt	RST38h: how so?	11:12
RST38h	literally.	11:12
tybollt	:)	11:13
tybollt	michal running yet another one of those "buy your apps here bla bla discount" campaigns? :	11:13
tybollt	:)	11:13
tybollt	ehr wait that's my-symbian	11:13
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* tybollt heads for another cup of coffee		11:13
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lardman	hmm, TMO is a horrible bitchy snipey place these days...	11:18
lardman	moring all :)	11:19
lardman	hmm, spelling gone already	11:19
trx	'ornin	11:19
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trx	mornin' *	11:19
trx	lol	11:19
lardman	:)	11:20
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RST38h	Moo, lardman	11:20
lardman	hey RST38h	11:20
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pupnik	moo	11:21
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lardman	hmm, is BlessN900 not open source?	11:25
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pupnik	dunno	11:27
lardman	how're you pupnik?	11:27
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jacekowski	lardman: fcamera can do more	11:28
lardman	jacekowski: yeah just looking at that	11:28
lardman	wondering if it could support arbitrary plugins	11:28
lardman	Google Goggles style stuff	11:28
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chem\|st	lardman: fcamera is hardware api first and imagemanipulaiton second... the programs are proof of concept and quiet good, have a closer look and see yourself	11:30
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chem\|st	lardman: nokias ovi panorama is one of it afaik	11:31
lardman	oh right, is that an Ovi store app?	11:31
lardman	HAM couldn't find it when I tried yesterday	11:32
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lardman	I didn't spot a way of saving to jpeg in FCamera, is there one?	11:34
ieatlint	yes	11:34
ieatlint	swipe your finger vertically down the screen and there'll be a config screen	11:34
lardman	ah :)	11:34
ieatlint	one of the options is save to jpeg..	11:34
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lardman	cool, thanks	11:35
lardman	This was a Nokia research project wasn't it?	11:35
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lardman	i wonder why FCam::saveJPEG() doesn't use the DSP as the normal camera app does....?	11:35
ieatlint	yeah, out of NRC and with help from standford students	11:36
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ieatlint	look at hdrcapture too... also by them... pretty cool	11:37
lardman	FCamera does hdr, is hdrcapture better then?	11:37
ieatlint	hdrcapture automates the process	11:37
ieatlint	it decides how many photos to take based on brightness, and merges them	11:38
lardman	ok	11:38
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lardman	hmm, time to look at jpegenc_sn.dll64P I guess	11:46
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Venemo_N900	hi	11:47
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lardman	hi Venemo_N900	11:48
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DocScrutinizer	lardman: watch their website, I don't think blessn900 is meant to be FOSS	11:52
chem\|st	lardman: ieatlint guess it was the other way round, stanford people with support from nokia, I doubt that nokia has a high interest in such stuff if they would need to put much work/manpower in it	11:52
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lardman	docscrutinizer: yeah I'd assumed as much	11:53
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lardman	chem\|st: righty-ho	11:53
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ieatlint	chem\|st: dunno, all i can say is that i went to NRC a couple weeks ago and saw a nokia employee give a talk about it with two standford students assisting	11:54
Venemo_N900	ieatlint: a talk about what?	11:54
ieatlint	fcamera	11:54
ieatlint	and hdrcapture	11:54
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chem\|st	ieatlint: my boss gets slides from me on topics he never worked on just to have him give the talk as representative...	11:55
ieatlint	rather sure that wasn't the case here :P	11:56
Venemo_N900	ieatlint: interesting	11:56
ieatlint	he was answering very technical questions with a clear understanding of it	11:56
lardman	obviously the students explained it to him very well ;)	11:56
chem\|st	ieatlint: same goes for projectmanagers	11:56
ieatlint	i got the impression he was a project lead that ran a team of students	11:56
ieatlint	yeah :P	11:56
chem\|st	ieatlint: wasn't it diploma or master thesis?	11:57
ieatlint	dunno, that wasn't really discussed	11:57
ieatlint	might be able to find the slides... let me see	11:57
chem\|st	ieatlint: thought they might have mentioned	11:57
chem\|st	ieatlint: doesn't really matter does it	11:58
ieatlint	eh... satisfies curiosity perhaps	11:58
chem\|st	ieatlint: at erandum...	11:59
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ieatlint	found the guy who gave the talk.. kari pulli	11:59
ieatlint	http://research.nokia.com/people/kari_pulli/	11:59
lardman	hmm, how can I download Panorama?	12:00
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chem\|st	ah ok maybe it is a coop project then	12:00
RST38h	http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/09/deborah-orr-julian-assange-wikileaks <=== Deborah Orr isn't getting it	12:00
chem\|st	lardman: store.ovi.com	12:00
lardman	on PC?	12:01
lardman	doesn't work on-device	12:01
ieatlint	hah, no slides posted, but this link is http://graphics.stanford.edu/projects/camera-2.0/	12:01
ieatlint	so that kinda clues in a bit, hehe	12:01
chem\|st	lardman: ? store does not work on device?	12:01
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lardman	no, says it's not available for my device	12:02
chem\|st	ieatlint: that page was the funding of my thoughts on it was stanford and nokia got interessted	12:03
chem\|st	lardman: manipulated browser ID?	12:03
lardman	no	12:04
ieatlint	chem\|st: looks like you're right then	12:04
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ieatlint	i have a feeling nokia facilitated it all though, including handing out a few devices	12:04
Jaffa	DocScrutinizer: I meant a Qt-based abstraction of Tracker's DBus iface; but you're right - could go straight to DBus	12:05
chem\|st	lardman: http://store.ovi.com/content/51491?clickSource=homepage that page?	12:05
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lardman	can't get it, I get redirected back to the incompatible page	12:06
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chem\|st	ieatlint: you were close though, was close to believe you...	12:07
chem\|st	lardman: you are logged in?	12:07
ieatlint	hah, people who know me know better than to believe me	12:07
lardman	chem\|st: how? I can't get any Ovi page to display on my N900	12:08
chem\|st	lardman: apt-get install panorama? (dont know if thats the package name... want me to look it up?)	12:08
chem\|st	lardman: WHAT?	12:08
chem\|st	lardman: do you use microB?	12:09
lardman	apt-get install panorama is correct, but I get something like "handler sliently failed"	12:09
lardman	ye, microb	12:09
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lardman	seems Ovi doesn't like my device	12:10
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chem\|st	lardman: I was able to load any ovi.com page I came along yet as long as my browser ID wasn't customized	12:10
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chem\|st	please go dostortugas.org	12:10
chem\|st	lardman: on the top line there is your browser output shown	12:11
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lardman	Maemo browser	12:11
chem\|st	weirtd	12:11
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chem\|st	try via pc, login, send to device	12:12
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lardman	how does that work?	12:13
lardman	how does it send it?	12:13
chem\|st	lardman: I guess sms idnk	12:13
chem\|st	just a link	12:14
lardman	I can't see it working	12:14
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chem\|st	why you arent able to bbrowse ovi is weirtd enough	12:14
lardman	sms sent, just waiting now	12:14
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chem\|st	copy/paste the browserline from your website pls the	12:15
lardman	the failed one on the N900?	12:15
chem\|st	from the website I just gave you	12:15
chem\|st	sry typo	12:15
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lardman	It had my IP, then Maemo Browser	12:16
chem\|st	copy paste pls	12:16
chem\|st	without ip	12:16
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lardman	I can't, I have to type it, as XChat is running on my PC	12:16
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Carneque	wireshark available, where are repositories for that?	12:24
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chem\|st	Carneque: yes and idk is it extras-testing?!	12:29
jacktheripper	the n900 only supports H.264 _BASELINE_ ?!	12:29
chem\|st	use maemo.org and enter wireshark in the search (top right)	12:29
Jaffa	BTW, anyone know of any tools to open a PPTX with a password where you've forgotten the password in question?	12:30
Carneque	chem I did that	12:30
chem\|st	Carneque: one sec	12:30
Carneque	I did that in the downloads section, my bad	12:31
chem\|st	Jaffa: as you can rule any microsoft product you may do that also but I have no clue	12:31
chem\|st	Carneque: http://maemo.org/packages/view/wireshark/	12:31
chem\|st	it is in devel	12:31
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Carneque	If I add fremantle extras-devel free i386 to my repositories can I add it through app manager?	12:32
chem\|st	Jaffa: just to give you hope!	12:32
chem\|st	Carneque: i386?	12:32
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chem\|st	nope	12:32
balzus	hi all	12:32
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Carneque	that's just the name of the repository on the download section	12:33
chem\|st	Carneque: look at your extras entry	12:33
chem\|st	Carneque: armel is n900 architecture not i386	12:33
Carneque	ahhh	12:33
Carneque	thanks	12:33
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Carneque	one last question, where is the sources list?	12:33
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chem\|st	Carneque: http://maemo.org/packages/source/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_source/wireshark/1.2.6-0maemo1/	12:34
chem\|st	~repositories	12:34
infobot	repositories are frequently old.	12:34
chem\|st	~repository	12:34
chem\|st	~devel	12:34
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Carneque	have you seen that Seinfeild where Kramer is playing movie phone?	12:35
Carneque	Why don't you just tell me what movie you'd like to see?	12:35
Carneque	:)	12:35
chem\|st	Carneque: http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-devel on the bottom is how to activate it, pls do yourself a favour!!! do not install anything else while the repo is active and deactivate it afterwards	12:36
balzus	I have a project to compile that has a configure.in file	12:36
balzus	I get this error:blablabla/cstdlib ::malloc has not been declared	12:37
chem\|st	hi balzus	12:37
balzus	hi chem\|st	12:37
balzus	my cstdlib is in another folder, do you know how can I inform the compiler that the library is in another folder	12:37
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Carneque	memory allocation problem?	12:38
Carneque	nm, I know little	12:38
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schasch	Hi...can I do a "power-button"-press by software (C-code /or/ dbus-call /or/ Qt)?	12:41
chem\|st	schasch: idk but look yourself, start dbus-monitor and have a look what happens, the other way.. it is a hardware button but as I dont knwo anything about the envy management of mamo5 idk if there is a simple "send event"	12:42
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schasch	chem\|st: cool...your idea helped....http://paste.debian.net/101960/	12:47
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schasch	chem\|st : hmmm...now I have to make a dbus-call with it	12:47
chem\|st	schasch: no time for that now... just helped lardman and gtg soon...	12:47
schasch	chem\|st: OK...thanks ..I didn't know the monitor till now... :-)	12:48
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ieatlint	wow, that panorama app is awesome	12:55
ieatlint	need to play with it tomorrow...	12:55
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MohammadAG	so	12:57
jase21	Can pymaemo control the changing the profile (silent <-> general) in N900?	12:59
alterego	You can do it through dbus so yeah	12:59
jase21	I saw some script (dbus script) in the fcron wiki. But I would like it to be done using python without using fcron.	12:59
jase21	Is that possible?	13:00
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lardman	yes, just implement dbus command in your Python script	13:00
jase21	But how about tracking time?	13:01
jase21	I want to change the profile at 9 to silent and at 6 back to general without using fcron.	13:01
jase21	So does that need fcron?	13:01
jase21	(I'm a python newbie)	13:01
lardman	not necessarily, but if you don't use cron then you'll have to have your python script running all the time waiting for the time to change	13:02
jase21	oh.	13:02
jase21	The problem is suppose I want to distribute the script. The the target device should also have fcron preinstalled for my script to work, right?	13:03
lardman	yes	13:03
lardman	you create a package for your script and one of the dependencies will be fcrond	13:03
lardman	s/fcrond/fcron	13:04
jase21	umm.. so where will the package manager get the fcron from? Its not in extras as well as extras-devel	13:04
jase21	Its in some ruskies repo.	13:04
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lardman	oh I see	13:04
lardman	Ask him to push it to extras-*	13:05
jase21	Heh.	13:05
ruskie	won't happen ;)	13:05
lardman	Otherwise it will still work - the use will have to just manually install that package for your package to install	13:05
jase21	ruskie: Why?	13:05
lardman	diy?	13:05
jase21	lardman: I wanted to make it simple enough.	13:05
jase21	Click - install - work	13:06
ruskie	because I dislike those repos and policies around them	13:06
lardman	hmm	13:06
lardman	I can't help there then, but it would make life easier for jase21	13:06
ruskie	can always query the user to add my repo... install fcron and then remove it	13:06
jase21	lardernan: Is there buit in mechanism in maemo 5 similar to fcron?	13:06
jase21	ruskie: okay. I'll resort to fcron as the last resort.	13:07
lardman	no idea, ask ruskie	13:07
ruskie	there's some alarm api thing	13:07
ruskie	that could allow for this	13:07
ruskie	I think there's even an alarmd somewhere in extras	13:07
jase21	ruskie: okay. Can I have it called from python (pymaemo)? Uhh.. alarmd is buggy.	13:08
lardman	http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Using_Generic_Platform_Components/Alarm_Framework	13:08
lardman	ruskie: is fcron standard?	13:09
lardman	i.e. unpatched	13:09
ruskie	it's standard as far as cron	13:09
ruskie	yup	13:09
* jase21 is checking that link.		13:09
ruskie	I don't patch things	13:09
lardman	in which case, assuming you're happy with it, I'd just get jase21 to build from your package to upload to extras-devel	13:09
lardman	assuming you don't want anything to do with extras	13:10
jase21	lardman: You want me to upload fcron to extras-devel? Why can't ruskie do it?	13:11
lardman	jase21: he doesn't want to	13:11
lardman	jase21: but I don't want you to, it would just make your life easier	13:11
jase21	lardman: So that means I would have to maintain fcron?	13:11
lardman	yes	13:11
jase21	lardman: oh, damn.	13:12
lardman	not a big problem	13:12
jase21	:D	13:12
lardman	anyway talk to ruskie	13:12
jase21	lardman: hah. okay.	13:12
DocScrutinizer	jase21: alarmd, alramed	13:12
ruskie	it was just a repackage of the debian package	13:12
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jase21	DocScrutinizer: I'm looking into the alram framework	13:13
lardman	What ever happened to Shepherd?	13:14
jase21	I have another doubt. If I need to automate the change of profile, the say I installed fcron, then fcron will be running all the time in the bg, right?	13:14
lardman	cron for time, and location	13:14
lardman	jase21: yes	13:14
DocScrutinizer	use alarmed	13:15
jase21	lardman: So how does fcron work? Does it poll the OS to get the time or .. ?	13:15
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ruskie	jase21, it sleeps	13:15
DocScrutinizer	use alarmed	13:15
jase21	DocScrutinizer: Okay	13:15
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ruskie	it takes no noticable resources	13:16
ruskie	I use it to change profiles and other things	13:16
Choom	jase21: man 2 alarm	13:16
jase21	ruskie: okay, but how does it know its 9 am if it is sleeping?	13:16
jase21	Does the OS wake it up ?	13:17
Choom	the kernel can schedule events	13:17
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Choom	yes	13:17
ruskie	it knows the time it's being setup/started	13:17
ruskie	then it just says I need to start in nnnnnnn seconds	13:17
DocScrutinizer	afaik fcron isn't using alarmd. Alarmed though is using alarmd.	13:17
DocScrutinizer	use alarmed	13:17
Choom	and if you're wondering how the kernel itself knows, it can program the microcontroller's PIT which is basically a hardware-based alarm clock that's usually used to cause task switching to schedule an event for later	13:18
jase21	DocScrutinizer: No I wanted to make my own alarmed (like) utility.	13:18
DocScrutinizer	alarmd will handle RTC wakeups as well	13:18
DocScrutinizer	uhuh	13:19
ruskie	lol	13:19
jase21	DocScrutinizer: heh, for learning actually.	13:19
alterego	jase21: why?	13:19
alterego	:/	13:19
alterego	boring :P	13:19
jase21	alterego: No. Why?	13:19
ruskie	I love it when people try doing stuff on their own(and no not being sarcastic)	13:20
ruskie	I actually don't see a problem with people reinventing the wheel and so on	13:20
lardman	though it's a shame if people have to spend time learning something that is not their goal	13:20
Choom	same	13:20
jase21	ruskie: yes. Its not reinventing wheel.	13:20
lardman	that's perhaps not the case here though	13:20
Choom	rather see people questioning stuff that just taking everything for granted	13:20
alterego	jase21: well it is :P	13:21
Choom	the question about how alarm() works is a good demonstration that jase21 wants to understand how things really work	13:21
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DocScrutinizer	well, implementing a new app without even knowing about existing stuff is a tremendous waste of time and energy	13:22
jase21	What I want is automate the changing of profile to silent when I'm at work and back to normal when I'm out of work. Also its a simple one to get started to digg some maemo related code, instead of using a pre-made one	13:22
Choom	DocScrutinizer: it's not a waste of time if you're learning and extracting entertainment out of it, at least that's how I see it	13:22
DocScrutinizer	use alarmed	13:22
jase21	Is that a weired idea?	13:22
lardman	jase21: no	13:23
chem\|st	DocScrutinizer: isnt there already something at least wip?	13:23
jase21	lardman: okay.	13:23
lardman	what would be better, would be to write a cron-type app that handles both times and locations ;)	13:23
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jase21	lardman: what do you mean by locations?	13:23
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ruskie	using the gps	13:24
chem\|st	jase21: lardman: use something that already knows about time and day, so you do not add threats	13:24
ruskie	I thought there was already a location based thingy	13:24
lardman	in the same way that cron triggers jobs depending on the time, this would trigger jobs depending on the location	13:24
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lardman	ruskie: not that I know of, I know Sheperd was going to be something like this	13:24
* DocScrutinizer shrugs		13:25
jase21	oh nice one. For that I need to have exact gps positions mapped. But in this part of the world gps isn't that accurate like in US.	13:25
DocScrutinizer	weird folks	13:25
jase21	hah :D	13:25
lardman	jase21: you need to differentiate between gps accuracy and map accuracy	13:25
alterego	Heh	13:25
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jase21	umm.. didn't get it.	13:26
chem\|st	was about 30km off lately and do not know why...	13:26
lardman	you could record your home and work locations, and use them directly rather than needing a map lookup, etc	13:26
jase21	lardman: oh' okay.	13:26
lardman	chem\|st: was that because you didn't have a gps fix?	13:26
lardman	and were using base station triangulation?	13:27
DocScrutinizer	nobody is using BTS triangulation	13:27
chem\|st	lardman: I have gps and network location on and my position was just fine, but the route to Lon\|Lat would have send me somewhere in the woods 30km of track	13:27
DocScrutinizer	except me	13:27
chem\|st	lardman: so had nothing to do with my location but with the maps	13:28
lardman	docscrutinizer: how does the coarse accuracy method work then?	13:28
DocScrutinizer	not even police can use BTD triangulation	13:28
jase21	Is there a pymaemo reference to alarmd? My C foo is weak.	13:28
DocScrutinizer	it's a mere circle shaped area around your servicing BTS	13:28
lardman	chem\|st: ok, so a map error again	13:28
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chem\|st	lardman: yes	13:29
lardman	docscrutinizer: ah fair enough, I gave them more credit	13:29
jase21	?	13:29
DocScrutinizer	coarse accuracy as in maemo even uses center of country if you got bad luck	13:29
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: that's not precise	13:29
chem\|st	lardman: and the network positioning works like "ah you see these 4 cell towers so you must be somewhere around $this position"	13:29
jase21	Any python experts here?	13:29
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lardman	jase21: not an expert, but what do you want?	13:30
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: rapuyama queries agps server with network mnc+mcc+cell id	13:30
jase21	lardman: alarmd reference for pymaemo	13:30
lardman	chem\|st: well that's reasonably close to triangulation ;)	13:30
lardman	jase21: no idea, google!	13:30
jase21	hah.	13:30
jase21	okay, I'm googling	13:30
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: only if you're connected to the nets	13:31
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: so there is support for coarse accuracy usign data from bts	13:31
jacekowski	but it's like 20km accurate	13:31
jacekowski	because i believe it's using single bts for it	13:31
DocScrutinizer	or like 2km	13:31
chem\|st	lardman: gets weird when celltower ids get randomized by replacing a tower with another one about 600km away in another city... when I use umts network my first location is 600km away from my actual position and I wont get a gps fix as most of the satelites on sight arent the ones expected	13:31
lardman	:)	13:32
jase21	Is it better to use C than Python? Seems like its sort of difficult to get hold on api docs for python than for C.	13:32
lardman	so what is this tower "triangulation" service you use?	13:32
lardman	jase21: they may not exist	13:32
DocScrutinizer	chem\|st: it doesn't work like this, usually	13:32
lardman	in which case you need to generate the bindings yourself	13:32
chem\|st	lardman: reasonable close to triangulation would be some kind of function calculating a coarse position but afaik it is just guessing your psoition	13:32
DocScrutinizer	chem\|st: also each cellid is unique	13:33
jase21	lardman: okay. I'll try using C. Hmm..	13:33
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: within mnc+mcc	13:33
DocScrutinizer	for that ncc	13:33
lardman	sure, but what is the service you use that has a db of celltowerid vs lat/lon?	13:33
DocScrutinizer	err mnc	13:33
chem\|st	DocScrutinizer: I know, and was really curious about an explanation why umts shows somewhere 600km north-east and gsm just fine?!	13:33
DocScrutinizer	bug in database	13:34
chem\|st	lardman: any maps program using the location api has that	13:34
lardman	really? I thought they worked from direct lat/lon or IP lookups	13:35
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DocScrutinizer	chem\|st: also there are no comprehensive official such databases for lat/lon of cellid	13:36
DocScrutinizer	check openbmap project	13:36
DocScrutinizer	~seen onen\|openbmap	13:36
infobot	onen\|openbmap <~quassel@vbo91-1-89-87-201-85.dsl.club-internet.fr> was last seen on IRC in channel #openmoko-cdevel, 70d 17h 7m 49s ago, saying: 'got to go. bbl'.	13:36
chem\|st	DocScrutinizer: yeah but the networkpositioning service is something like that...	13:37
DocScrutinizer	???	13:37
lardman	that uses IP locations	13:37
DocScrutinizer	which networkpositioningservice?	13:37
chem\|st	ok where did I miss the part about IP?	13:37
chem\|st	isnt n900 networkpositioning service that you request satelite cache from server for known cellIDs?	13:39
lardman	ah, SUPL	13:39
chem\|st	and get also your guessed position based on cellIDs sent?	13:40
lardman	but only to bootstrap the GPS chipset	13:40
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DocScrutinizer	you're all talking gibberish to me	13:40
lardman	so you actually get almanac/ephemeris data sent for your approx location	13:40
chem\|st	lardman: actualy no, I can use that service completely without GPS	13:41
DocScrutinizer	lardman: for this (called assisted GPS, AGPS) you need an estimation to size of a medium sized country	13:41
DocScrutinizer	not better	13:41
lardman	yep, but do you get a lat/lon sent back?	13:41
lardman	docscrutinizer: well 100miles or so	13:41
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chem\|st	google-maps for java phones for example can guide you pretty good without any gps	13:41
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DocScrutinizer	sure, they h ad those streetview cars recording every WLAN and the data that it transmitted	13:43
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Choom	agps is pretty accurate where I live, but not accurate enough to replace the GPS, it's usually a few blocks around of where I am, good enough to use inside buildings, terrible as a GPS replacement	13:43
DocScrutinizer	WTF AGPS IS GPS	13:43
lardman	Choom: you mean the SUPL data?	13:43
chem\|st	DocScrutinizer: my w880i has no wifi, and the gps mouse is not supported by most programs it is able to run	13:43
DocScrutinizer	it can NOT replace GPS	13:43
Choom	lardman: yes	13:44
chem\|st	DocScrutinizer: I do not talk about agps	13:44
lardman	so how do you access that data?	13:44
Choom	DocScrutinizer: not technically	13:44
DocScrutinizer	aha	13:44
lardman	by talking to the SUPL server directly?	13:44
DocScrutinizer	Choom: educate me	13:44
chem\|st	Choom: me too pls	13:44
lardman	because coarse accuracy in liblocation asks the basestation to provide a location	13:44
Choom	well, cell phone antennas aren't exactly GPS satellites	13:45
DocScrutinizer	lardman: nobody ever asks any BTS for any location	13:45
lardman	docscrutinizer: how does coarse accuracy work then?	13:45
Choom	and thus you can't call that GPS	13:45
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DocScrutinizer	and BTS never provides location (except O2 in germany on CBC221)	13:45
Choom	it Assists your GPS, it is by no means a GPS in itself	13:45
DocScrutinizer	Choom: BS	13:46
DocScrutinizer	AGPS == Assisted Geo Positioning System	13:46
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DocScrutinizer	A without GPS doesn't make any sense	13:46
lardman	docscrutinizer: http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/beta/liblocation/LocationGPSDControl.html#LOCATION-METHOD-ACWP:CAPS - how does this work if not by querying the location of the basestation?	13:47
chem\|st	Choom: by definition AGPS is GPS with network supported almanac downlaod	13:47
Choom	DocScrutinizer: that doesn-t make it a GPS now, dows it	13:48
DocScrutinizer	it is maybe querying the location of the BTS of the given CID. But it doesn't query the BTS about that, cause the BTS won't answer	13:48
lardman	what?	13:48
DocScrutinizer	Choom: google is your friend. wikipedia even more	13:48
Choom	DocScrutinizer: I'm using rhetoric	13:49
lardman	the data is routed via the basestation, without requiring an internet connection	13:49
chem\|st	lardman: it does not talk to the tower asking it what location it is in, it needs a server to ask about the CID	13:49
DocScrutinizer	lardman: citation needed	13:49
lardman	docscrutinizer: I'll dig one out, was from talking to the liblocation folks in Berlin	13:50
chem\|st	lardman: ehrm I thought it needs internet at it has to ask a server for info...	13:50
lardman	Amsterdam perhaps	13:50
lardman	that's only for the AGNSS method	13:50
lardman	i.e. needs an internet connection	13:51
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DocScrutinizer	lardman: what now? needs, or needs NOT?	13:51
lardman	afaiu ACWP does not need an internet connection, but does need a connection to the network	13:52
DocScrutinizer	ublox AGPS (the gps used in OM FR) is via a server hosted by ublox, or a proxy hosted by you. All are via internet	13:52
lardman	yes, that is SUPL	13:53
lardman	i.e. that is a SUPL server it talks to	13:53
lardman	this method is called AGNSS in liblocation	13:53
chem\|st	and CWP does not need a connection at all?!	13:53
lardman	well the country code is transmitted when it connects to the netwok afaiu	13:54
DocScrutinizer	I might accept the possibility GSM specs seen an supplement to enable AGPS in dumb phones (the USA shit), that is somehow implemented in GSN without need for a internet connection	13:54
DocScrutinizer	given the fact the GPS is connected to rapuyama and can be activated without support from application processor system, makes that even more likely	13:56
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chem\|st	lardman: ok just tested, CWP does nothing if no cache is available for the CIDs around, after once used ACWP CWP knows the position, what now would be to test is what happens when I drive outside the known area	13:58
DocScrutinizer	anyway, I can positively tell the BTS has no really good notion about where the MT is located. And triangulation needs highly precise timing sync between neighbour BTS that's simply not implemented anywhere	13:58
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chem\|st	lardman: and yes ACWP returns lat/lon	13:58
macmaN	whatsup allz	13:58
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macmaN	how to debug when maemo emulator says no initfs on startup	13:58
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lardman	chem\|st: of course, I was talking about whether the SUPL server returned lat/lon before	13:59
DocScrutinizer	so best you can obtain from GSM is usually a circle of arbitrary diameter where in you are located, with BTS in center	13:59
lardman	yep	13:59
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DocScrutinizer	or a segment thereof (for directional antennae)	13:59
chem\|st	lardman: so yes supl returns lat/lon	13:59
lardman	no, supl is not acwp	13:59
macmaN	mad-admin list says i have qemu-n900-pr13 as default	13:59
lardman	supl is the protocol used to return agps assistance data	14:00
chem\|st	lardman: acwp doesn't work without internet so who to ask then?	14:00
lardman	chem\|st: ok, in which case I was wrong and docscrutinizer was right, I stand corrected	14:00
chem\|st	so what does the supl server supply then?	14:01
lardman	though awcp works for me without a net connection afaicr	14:01
lardman	supl supplies almanac & ephemerides	14:01
chem\|st	based on CID?	14:01
lardman	based on whatever you give it	14:02
lardman	but yeah cellid would be normal	14:02
lardman	afaicr	14:02
DocScrutinizer	lardman: supl is even configurable anywhere in N900 settings iirc	14:03
lardman	you can set the server	14:03
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DocScrutinizer	yep	14:03
DocScrutinizer	set it to your own transparent proxy, to learn about what it does :-D	14:04
lardman	or just download the spec docs	14:04
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DocScrutinizer	http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Using_Connectivity_Components/Using_Location_API#Location_methods	14:05
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lardman	so without a net connection, my position is shown using coarse accuracy ACWP	14:06
chem\|st	lardman: reading broadcoms white-paper it says SUPL is much more than you are talking about and AGPS (almanac and stuff) is only one service out of many	14:06
lardman	though I'd have to move and check it's not cached of course	14:06
DocScrutinizer	or coordinates based on currently used GSM base station. Latter is used if such information exists in device's cache, which is updated when ACWP method is used	14:06
lardman	yes that's true	14:06
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lardman	docscrutinizer: but how is it updated, over the gsm network or via an internet connection?	14:07
lardman	chem\|st: the yes it's trye was for you :)	14:07
lardman	true	14:07
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DocScrutinizer	lardman: LOCATION_METHOD_ACWP - Assisted Complementary Wireless Positioning: A method where device is located based on cellular base station to which device is registered to. SIM card and a network connection is needed for ACWP method. If no network connection is available, this equals to CWP	14:08
lardman	yeah but who wrote that in the wiki?	14:08
chem\|st	lardman: "The SLP is a server or network equipment stack that handles tasks associated with user authentication, location requests, location-based application downloads, charging, and roaming." SLP=SUPL Location Platform	14:08
balzus	hi all	14:09
lardman	chem\|st: yes indeed	14:09
DocScrutinizer	lardman: there's "history" menu entry for that, in wiki	14:09
chem\|st	lardman: as I just said once I had ACWP locate me I was able to use CWP	14:09
lardman	anyway, I can't be bothered to argue, I'll admit defeat, though I still think that ACWP does not require anything more than a GSM connection	14:09
balzus	I ve installed opencv on the scratchbox but now that I m trying to run a simple program in there I get linking errors: error: undefined reference to cvNamedWindow etc	14:09
DocScrutinizer	lardman: LOCATION_METHOD_ACWP - Assisted Complementary Wireless Positioning: A method where device is located based on cellular base station to which device is registered to. SIM card and a network connection is needed for ACWP method. If no network connection is available, this equals to CWP	14:10
balzus	If I compile outside the scratchbox it works... (i m using pkg-configure)	14:10
balzus	pkg-config	14:10
chem\|st	lardman: SUPL technology as in separated network layers isn't implemented to masses yet	14:10
lardman	docscrutinizer: shall I also repeat my response?	14:10
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chem\|st	lardman: I will test that as soon as I leave town and tell you after that	14:11
lardman	chem\|st: all I said was that a SUPL server is used to provide data to bootstrap the gps	14:11
DocScrutinizer	you maybe should read the full wikipage	14:11
lardman	docscrutinizer: I did	14:11
DocScrutinizer	so it sounded like fool's talk to you?	14:11
chem\|st	lardman: and you said it does not supply lat/lon	14:11
lardman	docscrutinizer: you seem to be an expert in matters GSM, so I shall bow to your infinite wisdom	14:12
DocScrutinizer	no, I'm a noob compared to e.g SpeedEvil	14:12
lardman	chem\|st: no, I said it provides alamanc and ephemeris data and possibly lat/lon, I then asked whether whoever it was had been able to access this SUPL data, as I doubted it	14:12
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chem\|st	lardman: so you think the BTS supplies the most data?	14:13
lardman	no	14:13
lardman	good God, have you guys all got out the wrong side of bed today?	14:14
derf	_I_ am still in bed, so no, not yet.	14:14
chem\|st	lardman: actualy that is the idea of SUPL, to have a separate networklayer implemented in wireless networks to provide all data without affecting any effects of normal usage	14:15
balzus	no one?	14:15
DocScrutinizer	hey, you claim our beloved brick has a new cute function that nobody of us ever heard of. You're surprised we want to know the whole story?	14:15
lardman	ah, shall I reiterate	14:15
chem\|st	balzus: no clue! but a package compiling on your desktop might need some hands-on for compiling for another architecture	14:16
lardman	chem\|st: I know what SUPL is for, the question was simply to ask of whoever it was who said that they were using the SUPL data to obtain lat/lon directly whether they were actually doing this, or whether it was coming by some other method	14:16
tybollt	DocScrutinizer: 'brick' :-D	14:16
DocScrutinizer	lardman: maybe sort your talk and your arguments chain, rather than reinterate	14:16
chem\|st	lardman: yes that is the point! why would I powerup battery hungry GPS/wifi if there is BTS positioning	14:17
lardman	docscrutinizer: my understanding, quite possibly wrong, but based on a talk I saw at one of the Maemo summits, was that ACWP does not require an internet connection, but does require a GSM network connection, possible with some layer ontop, I don't know, I'm certainly not claiming to have any expertise in the matter	14:17
DocScrutinizer	I said I'm willing to think of that as a possible way things work, actually even said it's likely regarding how the hardware works	14:19
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chem\|st	lardman: that is the general idea, not used as they make money with not using it!	14:19
DocScrutinizer	but then we should be able to see a ACWP -enable command sent to rapuyama/cellmo and it coming back with proper 1000m accuracy lon/lat immediately	14:20
lardman	I really wish I'd never even mentioned SUPL	14:20
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lardman	docscrutinizer: yes, that would be a way of testing it, I'd like to know whether it works	14:21
chem\|st	it is like tesla had ideas of powersupply OTA but everyone could use it without payment so none of the companies will ever do research on that	14:21
DocScrutinizer	lardman: obviously needs support of carrier	14:21
lardman	yep	14:21
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lardman	I'll have to ask SpeedEvil what his opinion is later on	14:22
DocScrutinizer	yep, a good idea	14:22
chem\|st	lardman: the SUPL servers you enter into n900 settings is actually a workaround for IP based SUPL	14:23
DocScrutinizer	obviously, as it's a internet DNS URL	14:23
chem\|st	;)	14:23
chem\|st	DocScrutinizer: aye CAPTAIN	14:24
balzus	chem\|st: got it	14:24
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balzus	I have found that only the highgui library isn-t recognized	14:24
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chem\|st	DocScrutinizer: but there is a lot of space for more data in gsm and umts not used that much	14:25
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schasch	Hi, I still can not send the command over dbus to get:	14:25
schasch	-signal sender=:1.11 -> dest=(null destination) serial=10691 path=/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/computer_logicaldev_input; interface=org.freedesktop.Hal.Device; member=Condition	14:25
schasch	string "ButtonPressed"	14:25
schasch	string "power"	14:25
schasch	in dbus-monitor --system	14:25
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schasch	I tried "dbus-send --print-reply --system --dest=com.nokia.hal /org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/computer_logicaldev_input org.freedesktop.Hal.Device string:ButtonPressed string:power"	14:25
schasch	but the answer is: "Error org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name com.nokia.hal was not provided by any .service files"	14:25
schasch	can not fins anything about it (dest=???) ? Any ideas?	14:25
chem\|st	160 chars long, sent on every SYN/ACK of celltowers	14:26
DocScrutinizer	schasch: it's a signal	14:31
DocScrutinizer	that's why dest=(null)	14:31
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schasch	DocScrutinizer : thanks, so not possible to do it by software (dbus-send or c-code) ?	14:32
schasch	DocScrutinizer : I want to fake the powerpress ...	14:33
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chem\|st	schasch: why don't you fake waht you want to do instead?!	14:38
chem\|st	you want the menu pop out?	14:39
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balzus	I m compiling in scratchbox opecv but I get this error>: cannot find -lpython2.3	14:39
balzus	I have installed the intere nokia package so I shouldn-t get this error	14:39
schasch	chem\|st : no I want to show the time whenn N900 is locked	14:40
schasch	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=66416	14:40
schasch	this problem gets me crazy...	14:40
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schasch	faking the button would show screenshot 1	14:41
chem\|st	schasch: http://dbus.freedesktop.org/doc/dbus/libdbus-tutorial.html that might help	14:42
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schasch	chem\|st : thanks, I will have look!	14:42
chem\|st	schasch: but wouldn't it be a much more logic way to keep the display on without unlocking instead?	14:43
schasch	chem\|st : NO, I want to lock it!	14:44
chem\|st	schasch: and you know that keeping the display lid will dry the battery even while charging	14:44
chem\|st	schasch: YES "without unlocking"	14:45
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schasch	chem\|st : display on is no problem, but showing the time and keeping display on is a problem	14:46
schasch	chem\|st : the link you showed me is to use dbus in c-code? or didn't I get it?	14:47
schasch	chem\|st : dbus-send would be OK for me	14:47
schasch	chem\|st : if I use c-code I also have to know the args to set this signal, or ?	14:48
chem\|st	yes	14:48
chem\|st	schasch: what about a desktop homescreen clock?	14:48
schasch	chem\|st : see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=66487 too	14:49
schasch	chem\|st : I want to have a secured/locked device	14:49
lardman	balzus: wrong version of Python	14:50
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lardman	balzus: might be caused by the fact that sb comes with its own old version of python	14:51
schasch	chem\|st : batterie is no problem for me	14:52
chem\|st	schasch: now I get it... you know about timed slideshows used in digi-picturestands as fun-clocks? maybe that would be a brilliant idea as you said you get mplayer to play	14:52
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schasch	chem\|st : "you know about timed slideshows used in digi-picturestands" no,what's that?	14:54
schasch	chem\|st : mplayer . microwindows text2screen work	14:54
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schasch	chem\|st : because of writing directly in framebuffer	14:55
schasch	chem\|st : so no problem, even if N900 is locked	14:55
balzus	lardman: uhm so what can I do_	14:55
balzus	?	14:55
schasch	chem\|st : the key-screen is not painted often, so no prblem to use framebuffer	14:56
schasch	chem\|st : but powerbutton by software shows the clock and would be nicer	14:56
chem\|st	get a picture slideshow output to fb timed to your needs	14:56
chem\|st	schasch: http://www.heise.de/foto/artikel/Digitale-Bilderrahmen-zweckentfremdet-1023520.html	14:56
balzus	it says also: skipping incompatible /scratchbox/blabla/libpython2.3.a when searching for -lpython2.3	14:56
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Venemo_	MohammadAG: ping	14:57
lardman	balzus: what does "which python" say?	14:59
balzus	I fix it, I use ./configure --host+arm	14:59
balzus	host=arm *	14:59
balzus	thx anyway	14:59
lardman	np	14:59
schasch	chem\|st : I want to use my N900, this device is the best and I can do almost everything with it, exept this 'stupid' function when it is locked :-(	15:01
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chem\|st	schasch: I am not talking about buying a picturestand but implementing what they did at the n900!	15:11
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schasch	chem\|st : ah ja :-) sorry	15:32
schasch	chem\|st : the only way to implement it is by using the framebuffer when it is locked, operating the keys (to unlock) is difficult that way	15:34
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SpeedEvil	lardman: /	15:35
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lardman	hey SpeedEvil	15:36
lardman	Does ACWP require an internet connection, or can it be performed over the GSM network?	15:37
josemdvdf	someone can help me ?	15:39
SpeedEvil	no clue	15:39
lardman	:)	15:40
SpeedEvil	josemdvdf: no, nobody can help you.	15:40
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lardman	SpeedEvil: we were expecting big things from you - in fact a pronouncement on the subject :)	15:42
crashanddie	~ping	15:42
lardman	crashanddie: pong	15:42
crashanddie	hmm	15:42
ieatlint	josemdvdf: note that you should ask a question, and not a question to ask a question..	15:44
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ieatlint	lardman: you wrote mbarcode right?	15:45
lardman	yep	15:45
ieatlint	thanks :)	15:45
lardman	np :)	15:45
ieatlint	it works awesomely :)	15:45
SpeedEvil	lardman: What's the acronym?	15:45
lardman	Assisted Complimentary Wireless Position	15:46
lardman	http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/beta/liblocation/LocationGPSDControl.html#LOCATION-METHOD-ACWP:CAPS	15:46
ieatlint	i'm writing an application that may end up needing to decode 2d barcodes... mind saving me a couple min and letting me know what licence that part of the code is under?	15:46
ieatlint	gpl?	15:46
SpeedEvil	ah	15:46
lardman	yeah whole thing is GPL	15:46
ieatlint	cool	15:46
lardman	ieatlint: but in that case you might be better looking at zbar directly	15:46
ieatlint	that'll do nicely	15:46
lardman	as that is the actual decoder	15:46
ieatlint	ah	15:47
ieatlint	ok	15:47
Venemo_	josemdvdf: we can't help you if you don't tell us what you need help with	15:47
lardman	there's the videowidget class in mbarcode which probably does what you need	15:47
lardman	includes the gst pipeline + decoder threads	15:48
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ieatlint	hmm, so the videowidget class is based off of gstreamer?	15:49
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lardman	no	15:49
lardman	it's a Qt widget	15:49
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ieatlint	i want to expand a program i have written to read ID cards to support the 2d barcodes found on many north american ID cards	15:49
lardman	but you need to get the video data in somehow so you have something to decode	15:49
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lardman	well you could ask mbarcode to send the decoded data to your program via dbus	15:50
ieatlint	yeah, i saw the plugin interface	15:50
lardman	your program can remain independant and be woken via dbus calls too	15:51
lardman	or at least that's what I'm working on atm	15:51
ieatlint	issue is i want it to be 1) straight qt (if possible) to make it portable and 2) have the two methods of authentication done through one interface	15:51
ieatlint	(the second method, which is already implemented, verifies an ID card through its magnetic stripe)	15:52
lardman	ok	15:52
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DocScrutinizer	schasch: (lock clock) why do you need a locked device?	15:52
lardman	well you'll have to do some hacking then	15:52
ieatlint	that's fine... you should've seen the hack i had to do to get the magstripe reading done before PR1.3 fixed shit	15:53
lardman	what do you use to do the reading?	15:53
DocScrutinizer	schasch: you know a fulscreen window displaying a clock and simply discarding every X-input event is just as good as a lock anyway?	15:53
ieatlint	audio interface	15:53
lardman	ah ok	15:53
ieatlint	requires a hardware dongle	15:54
schasch	DocScrutinizer : when I I am at work and leave the room	15:54
ieatlint	but i have a near unlimited supply of them for free, heh	15:54
lardman	yeah I guessed that ;)	15:54
schasch	DocScrutinizer : how can I disgard X?	15:54
schasch	s/disgard/discard/	15:54
ieatlint	PR1.2 and earlier put all recorded audio through a PA filter	15:54
DocScrutinizer	schasch: you can set up this pseudo-lock app in a way it would actually lock the screen when you manage to kill it	15:54
lardman	ieatlint: I didn't realise that	15:55
DocScrutinizer	schasch: why would you want to discard X?	15:55
schasch	DocScrutinizer : I mean the input what you meant...	15:55
ieatlint	meant i had to use libpulseaudio-simple to access the audio interface directly in order to get it working...	15:55
DocScrutinizer	your app could use full screen window so no systray or window title is shown	15:55
ieatlint	was a nasty method calling PA from qt	15:55
schasch	DocScrutinizer : yes that was also the idea...check the maximized state of an app	15:56
schasch	DocScrutinizer : right now I am looking how to do it in Qt	15:56
DocScrutinizer	then you monitor for sighup, sigint, sigterm etc and fire up a lock-device dbus cmd	15:56
DocScrutinizer	also do the same when somebody is trying to steal focus, e.g via ctrl-bs	15:57
ieatlint	happily PR1.3 fixed this, although i see no associated bug closed, and i can use qaudioinput... and have a code base that works on maemo, symbian, windows, linux, os x... and i blindly presume meego	15:57
Venemo_	schasch: you can use Xlib from a Qt app too	15:57
schasch	ah yes. loosing focus,... if I find out how to do it in Qt, I will write an clock-app for it	15:58
lardman	ieatlint: well you may have problems with the barcode decoders then	15:58
lardman	ieatlint: what type of 2D code is it?	15:58
ieatlint	uh, one sec, pulling up specs	15:58
DocScrutinizer	schasch: lock-clock - nice idea	15:58
schasch	DocScrutinizer : I already show the time in my first garage-project https://garage.maemo.org/projects/qvdremote	15:59
schasch	now only check if it is not on top anymore	15:59
schasch	DocScrutinizer : I would make the clock bigger of course	15:59
ieatlint	PDF417	15:59
ieatlint	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDF417	15:59
lardman	ah, stacked 1D then	16:00
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schasch	DocScrutinizer : http://www.n900forum.de/programme/qvdremote-n900-fernbedienung-fuer-den-vdr-server/	16:01
lardman	ieatlint: not sure if pdf417 is currently supported by zbar	16:02
lardman	hmm might be in one of the SVN builds, will have to compile and see	16:03
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ieatlint	hmm, quick look and i find an faq that says "Support for PDF-417 has also been started."	16:03
lardman	yeah, not sure if it's finished though	16:04
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DocScrutinizer	schasch: is this via WLAN?	16:04
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ieatlint	hmm, ok, i'll look at it and see where it's at	16:04
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ieatlint	thanks for your help :)	16:04
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schasch	DocScrutinizer : yes WLAN for changing channel...	16:05
DocScrutinizer	schasch: ...or CIR?	16:05
DocScrutinizer	:nod:	16:05
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lardman	ieatlint: I was planning on testing svn versions of libzbar and libdmtx this week anyway, so will let you know if it works	16:05
schasch	DocScrutinizer : my VDR got eth	16:05
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ieatlint	ok, cool	16:05
ieatlint	i'll likely be starting my testing soon... i'm in part waiting on some ID card samples to arrive	16:06
ieatlint	don't have any with this barcode type to test on at the moment, heh	16:06
Venemo_	quote of the day from #meego:	16:06
Venemo_	[15:03:01] <Jucato> leinir: I guess I just expected too much from 2 industry giants working together with Stskeeps	16:06
lardman	ieatlint: google image search ;)	16:06
ieatlint	perhaps... but that would only confirm that it could read the barcode type, not the formatted data i need to parse :)	16:07
DocScrutinizer	schasch: I used 2 N900 to 'create' a WLAN range extended CIR remote for my TV :-)	16:08
lardman	ieatlint: ah, I see what you mean	16:08
DocScrutinizer	schasch: was a matter of changing one IP, in irreco	16:09
schasch	DocScrutinizer : :-) cool , I do it with my dvb-t-VDR Siemens-m740	16:09
DocScrutinizer	schasch: I was wondering if a TCP proxy could link irreco to your VDR	16:10
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DocScrutinizer	schasch: the proxy would open localhost:7890 for talking to irreco, translate data coming from irreco via a simple schell script lookup table, and send it out to your VDR IP	16:12
DocScrutinizer	shellscript with netcat would be all you need I guess	16:12
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DocScrutinizer	well, plus sed maybe	16:14
DocScrutinizer	or awk	16:14
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schasch	DocScrutinizer : I do not know exactly what you mean	16:23
schasch	DocScrutinizer : my vdr-app works for me	16:24
DocScrutinizer	schasch: never mind then. Just brainstorming about alternative concepts	16:24
schasch	DocScrutinizer : do u need something else for your solution?	16:24
schasch	DocScrutinizer : OK	16:24
schasch	DocScrutinizer : I am now trying to solve my dammed lock-clock-problem :-(	16:25
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DocScrutinizer	schasch: just as irreco has a clumsy skin editor, for buttons etc	16:25
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DocScrutinizer	and is also sending via TCP	16:26
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schasch	DocScrutinizer : on download success I will make my app a little nicer	16:26
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DocScrutinizer	just the data format isn't the one you'd need	16:26
schasch	DocScrutinizer : for me it is now ok and only 11 downloads and no feedback till now from users	16:27
DocScrutinizer	so I thought a data format conversion plugin for irreco would be a nice universal solution	16:27
schasch	DocScrutinizer : the svdrp should be implemented	16:27
schasch	DocScrutinizer : now I do understand	16:28
schasch	:-)	16:28
schasch	DocScrutinizer : my VDR has also CIR, but till now I only had the time to setup my TV in IRRECO	16:29
DocScrutinizer	WLAN for sure much better than CIR	16:29
schasch	DocScrutinizer : yep	16:29
DocScrutinizer	irreco talks to lirc via local loopback network - it could as well talk to a converter that doesn't control IR-LED but instead sends converted data to VDR via WLAN	16:31
alterego	If you want to use lirc, you can have a look at my app.	16:31
alterego	Declaring the skin in QML is quite joyful	16:31
dany	hi	16:32
dany	do you know if there is a way to know the nokia token that are you using?	16:32
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schasch	alterego : wich app do you mean?	16:43
alterego	http://stage.rubyx.co.uk/xbox360-media-remote/Screenshot-20101208-174011.png	16:44
schasch	DocScrutinizer : got the lock-clock implemented in my qvdremote :-)	16:44
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schasch	DocScrutinizer : I have to open a new garage	16:44
schasch	<alterego : wow....nice!	16:45
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alterego	schasch: it's a qml framework for talking to lirc on the N900	16:46
alterego	(basically)	16:46
alterego	But that's packaged specifically to be an XBox 360 remote, but you could, looking at the QML source, make it control any configured remote with lirc.	16:47
dany	Could not exec dpkg!	16:48
dany	E: Sub-process dpkg returned an error code (100)	16:48
dany	anyone has ever got this error?	16:48
schasch	alterego : OK thanks	16:48
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BCMM	that's kinda pretty, apart from the xbox logo	16:52
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dany	what a bloody error..	16:56
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jacktheripper	dany, try this: http://thelowedown.wordpress.com/2010/04/16/debian-apt-get-installs-fail-with-dpkg-error-code-100/	17:04
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dany	jacktheripper: thx I'm going to try it :)	17:18
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dany	jacktheripper: tried but there is not the dpkg in my scratchbox	17:23
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dany	I don't know why	17:23
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dany	in /usr/bin there are only: [sbox-definitiveARM: /usr/bin] > ls	17:24
dany	catchsegv cc gencat getconf getent ldd locale localedef mtrace rpcgen rpcinfo tzselect zdump	17:24
jacktheripper	uh what !?	17:24
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jacktheripper	type 'which dpkg'	17:24
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dany	which: no dpkg in (/host_usr/bin:/scratchbox/devkits/svn/bin:/scratchbox/devkits/qemu/bin:/scratchbox/devkits/perl/bin:/scratchbox/devkits/git/bin:/scratchbox/devkits/doctools/bin:/scratchbox/devkits/apt-https/bin:/scratchbox/tools/bin:/targets/links/arch_tools/bin:/scratchbox/compilers/bin:/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin)	17:25
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dany	I can't install anything	17:38
dany	it's like if I have not the dpkg	17:38
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jacktheripper	you don't have dpkg	17:42
jacktheripper	did you install nokia-binaries ?	17:42
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pupnik	local linux root escalation exploit published Dec 07 http://infolookup.securegossip.com/2010/12/07/linux-kernel-exploit-poc-demo/	17:48
dRbiG	hmm, kind of spamming again: does anyone know if a 32gb microsd card will work with n900?	17:49
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DocScrutinizer51	yes	17:51
chem\|st	dRbiG: should	17:51
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DocScrutinizer51	pupnik: forgot your root passwd?	17:52
dRbiG	DocScrutinizer51: that 'yes' was to my question? :)	17:52
DocScrutinizer51	yes	17:52
dRbiG	hehe, ok, thx	17:52
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dRbiG	i guess my 16gb pendrive that i bought this year is kind'a obsolete now	17:53
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dRbiG	however it still has the advantage of being much more what-ever-bad-happens-proof than a fragile n900	17:54
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chem\|st	dRbiG: it is not fragile... dropped stairs, 2m on concrete, 0.5L direct splash wheatbeer-coke mix... that does not sound fragile	17:56
dRbiG	chem\|st: luck which i usually lack	17:57
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dRbiG	anyway, that's good to hear	17:57
DocScrutinizer51	Well the IP (intrusion proterction) isn't that great for liquids, in general	17:57
dRbiG	i still have high hopes of my n900 surviving with me for few years at least	17:58
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DocScrutinizer51	damn, hope you're not THAT ill	17:58
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pupnik	DocScrutinizer51: no it's just a curiosity sorry for the ot	17:59
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DocScrutinizer51	pupnik: eh?	18:00
pupnik	nm	18:00
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DocScrutinizer51	I got a few tritium lights which I'm absolutely sure will shine on my tomb	18:01
DocScrutinizer51	but n900...	18:01
sivang	hi all	18:01
sivang	can anybody please toss me the links to trapping SMSs and possibly running a script with them/ when they arrive?	18:01
sivang	I had links for this on forum and wiki, but damn gmail	18:02
sivang	"never delete, just search" does not really work	18:02
sivang	whe you've used gmail for long enough	18:02
sivang	I don't need to decode them, just forward them	18:02
sivang	if there's an app for that, that's also good	18:02
sivang	now that I think of it, there's a call forwarder app somewhere that can be used for the same purpose	18:04
DocScrutinizer51	o.O	18:04
DocScrutinizer51	call forwarder app?	18:05
DocScrutinizer51	how'd that work?	18:05
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DocScrutinizer51	you're not talking about starhash and 615554565#, are you?	18:06
sivang	http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/callforwarding/0.3.1/	18:07
sivang	DocScrutinizer51: I have no idea what I am talking about. but I recall an python app, that traps calls and does soemthing on them	18:07
sivang	quite easily I remember it would be to switch the trapping with listening to sms dbus events	18:07
sivang	and act upon them as well	18:07
sivang	nobody has the link or the app name or so? :)	18:08
DocScrutinizer51	meh, forget that nonsense call forwarding app. It's a subset of *#ena with a useless GUI	18:08
sivang	okay, but trapping sms's and forwarding them, e.g. using the dbus api to send them onward?	18:09
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DocScrutinizer51	no idea	18:09
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DocScrutinizer51	there's python and other code to send an sms, somewhere on wiki	18:11
sivang	yes	18:12
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DocScrutinizer51	but trigger on reception...	18:12
sivang	gmail is a pile of nonsense	18:12
sivang	no use to search through stuff long ago	18:12
* sivang sighs		18:12
BCMM	DocScrutinizer51: tritium has a half-life of 12 years or something	18:12
sivang	DocScrutinizer51: there was something like that	18:12
DocScrutinizer51	I seem to remember there's been a wipe app that nulls your device on a sms key	18:13
Macer	hm	18:13
DocScrutinizer51	BCMM: exactly	18:13
Macer	anybody notice the browser in maemo randomly crashes when typing in an address when it tries to pull up the history?	18:13
Macer	or is it just me	18:13
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BCMM	mine just randomly loses all it's history from time to time	18:14
Macer	that too :)	18:15
sivang	BCMM: had that, but it never crashed	18:15
sivang	it never crashed to me	18:15
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sivang	nomatter how much stress I've put on it or os	18:15
DocScrutinizer51	I just noticed ^F is useless esp on zoomed pages	18:15
sivang	DocScrutinizer51: google is also useless in searching throgh maemo wiki as well	18:16
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DocScrutinizer51	hmm really?	18:16
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Macer	well. i keep having it randomly crash	18:19
DocScrutinizer51	maybe run it under gdb control?	18:20
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Macer	how well does n wifi work?	18:21
Macer	anybody here use it much?	18:21
Macer	i was wondering if it could really stream high def video well	18:22
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DocScrutinizer51	errr, depends on AP and client	18:22
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alterego	Macer: works great at my parents.	18:24
alterego	Super speedy :D	18:24
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DocScrutinizer51	not with n900	18:25
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nomis	DocScrutinizer51: I recently was wrong btw. LIRC on the n900 can deal with raw codes. No idea if I was just confused or if this was impossible in earlier maemo releases.	18:29
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alterego	nomis: I think you were confused ;)	18:32
alterego	bbl	18:32
nomis	the accuracy of the IR transmitter and/or its driver is pretty bad though.	18:33
nomis	I did a test with 100us to 5000us pulses (in 100us steps) and captured the real timing with a IR receiver. Fitting a line against this data set shows, that the pulses on average are too long for about 133us.	18:35
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sivang	ah, so nice.	18:50
sivang	all sms's are in the sqlite db	18:51
sivang	select * from Events where event_type_id=7	18:51
sivang	gets you all the SMS's	18:51
MohammadAG	as well as all convo logs	18:51
sivang	MohammadAG: yes, very cool, I mean, we like to complain about Maemo but the thigns you can do with it :)	18:52
BCMM	nomis: is there a predictable delay in turning the transmitter off? maybe it would be possible to take it into account	18:52
sivang	so there's code on the wiki to encode PDU	18:52
MohammadAG	ffs why is xchat beeping	18:52
sivang	and to send, there's as well. all pieces are there. Now just code.	18:52
sivang	thanks people, again	18:52
DocScrutinizer	nomis: :-S	18:53
sivang	ROTFL	18:53
nomis	BCMM: not sure yet. Trying to figure out how to generate a good data set to base a prediction on.	18:53
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sivang	DocScrutinizer51: do you thihnk it is feasible to use the FM transmitter/antenna to auto probe free fm band to use to transmit to a car?	18:54
nomis	my first shot would be to subtract 133us on pulses longer than that. But I have not yet understood if this affects the pauses as well.	18:54
DocScrutinizer	sivang: sure	18:54
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DocScrutinizer	sivang: FMTX even has a dedicated rx for that	18:55
DocScrutinizer	nomis: the question though is how much's the jitter	18:56
sivang	DocScrutinizer: do we have software for that?	18:56
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sivang	if not, i am very keen to help	18:56
DocScrutinizer	not afaik	18:56
sivang	but I know nothing about hardware hacking	18:56
sivang	so I'd nee some help	18:56
DocScrutinizer	umm, I'm not sure the datasheet for FMTX is publicaly available	18:57
sivang	DocScrutinizer: FMTX is like the fm tx/rx chip ?	18:57
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DocScrutinizer	RX is a function of BT iirc	18:57
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sivang	DocScrutinizer: but if it is a stock chip, we just ask for it from the mfctr?	18:57
DocScrutinizer	TX is a dedicated chip, which has a dedicated RX for searching free freq only	18:58
sivang	DocScrutinizer: wow nice	18:58
nomis	DocScrutinizer: http://www.home.unix-ag.org/simon/files/timing-plot.txt - have fun with gnuplot. It contains three samples per value each.	18:58
sivang	DocScrutinizer: BT RX is broadcast tower reception?	18:58
DocScrutinizer	check wiki, if there's anything to know then SpeedEvil has summarized it in wiki	18:58
sivang	DocScrutinizer: in his page?	18:58
SpeedEvil	http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_FM_Receiver	18:59
DocScrutinizer	in hardware category	18:59
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: TX	18:59
SpeedEvil	oh	18:59
SpeedEvil	http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_FM_Radio_Transmitter	18:59
DocScrutinizer	:-)	18:59
SpeedEvil	you get the full ds if you register free	18:59
DocScrutinizer	aah that's been it	19:00
DocScrutinizer	though I seem to remember the ds was poor, had no proper register table?	19:00
SpeedEvil	don't recall	19:00
DocScrutinizer	and just a reference to some poc implementation	19:01
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FauxFaux	How do you open or copy text from e-mails? :s	19:02
MohammadAG	yeah..., you can't do that	19:03
MohammadAG	unless you click reply, then use shift + arrow keys and CTRL + C	19:03
sivang	FauxFaux: copy them from the sqlite db :)	19:03
* sivang runs away		19:03
MohammadAG	naw fuck	19:03
MohammadAG	Preparing to replace mediaplayer 1.3-4+0m5 (using mediaplayer_0.0.1_armel.deb) ..	19:03
MohammadAG	I replaced the stock media player :/	19:04
sivang	SpeedEvil, DocScrutinizer : thank you people	19:04
FauxFaux	That's pretty bad.	19:04
DocScrutinizer	thank SpeedEvil - he's the god of wiki hw info	19:04
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: HAHA :-/	19:06
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DocScrutinizer	FauxFaux: modest is ... modest aka crap :-P	19:07
LeakyPug	hi guys..	19:07
DocScrutinizer	probably you couldn't find a better name for it	19:07
LeakyPug	i there anyway in can save space on my rootfs?	19:08
DocScrutinizer	yeah, don't install poorly maintained aps from maemo-devel	19:08
BCMM	also, rm -r is your friend	19:09
BCMM	well, no it isn't	19:09
DocScrutinizer	well, rm -ri maybe	19:09
LeakyPug	okay..	19:09
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jacktheripper	rm -rf	19:09
* FauxFaux goes back to alpine. -_-		19:09
jacktheripper	/	19:09
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DocScrutinizer	LeakyPug: be careful with whatever rm. You should know what you're doing	19:10
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sivang	SpeedEvil: is it okay to ask you hardware related questions if I find any while working through the docs? how's that yard going? :)	19:10
LeakyPug	ya okay Doc.and I have installed some 20 small apps and i find my device temporarily bricking.	19:10
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MohammadAG	brick = permanent	19:11
DocScrutinizer	sivang: always welcome	19:11
MohammadAG	just a tech grammar nazi	19:11
LeakyPug	okay :D	19:11
MohammadAG	:P	19:11
LeakyPug	sorry for my inevitable error ;)	19:11
MohammadAG	You are forgiven	19:11
LeakyPug	but why is it?	19:12
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MohammadAG	NowPlayingWindow: Orientation changed: Portrait.	19:12
LeakyPug	i find just a black screen for some few mins..	19:12
DocScrutinizer	why is what?	19:12
MohammadAG	Segmentation fault	19:12
* MohammadAG curses		19:12
DocScrutinizer	LOL	19:12
alterego	Heh	19:12
sivang	DocScrutinizer: :)	19:13
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MohammadAG	ah	19:13
MohammadAG	had it set to something that didn't exist	19:13
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SpeedEvil	sivang: yes.	19:13
* MohammadAG needs a microUSB cable		19:13
MohammadAG	forgot where mine is, and I only have the N8's one	19:14
MohammadAG	alterego, any idea why some layouts get a widget, others don't?	19:14
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: you bricked it again? :-P	19:14
alterego	MohammadAG: not sure what you mean :P	19:14
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* SpeedEvil wonders how to flash through the battery contacts.		19:15
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DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: wut?	19:15
MohammadAG	alterego, when using Qt creator, some layouts are ui->verticalLayout and ui->verticalLayoutWidget	19:16
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MohammadAG	others are only ui->verticalLayout	19:16
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: ooh the TPs?	19:16
SpeedEvil	the test points, yes	19:17
SpeedEvil	not the actual battery contacts.	19:17
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: sorry, please help me out - the layout has two separate sub-layouts for portrait and landscape?	19:17
MohammadAG	yes, if I want to include some customizations	19:18
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alterego	MohammadAG: dunno about that, never use designer.	19:18
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: JTAG. Or there are twins of USB	19:18
DocScrutinizer	or via TTY	19:18
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DocScrutinizer	I'd guess nokia managed to have some FBus or MBus compatible thing there as well, just for sanity of their care center tech staff	19:19
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: and how many of the stock apps actually support (aka contain) portrait optimized layouts?	19:22
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MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, none?	19:23
DocScrutinizer	:nod:	19:23
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, aren't we aiming to change this?	19:23
DocScrutinizer	how ould you change this for the blobs?	19:23
DocScrutinizer	while I think about it... Not even dialer-ui?	19:24
DocScrutinizer	nm, a moot question	19:24
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, aren't we like... rewriting the mediaplayer?	19:24
DocScrutinizer	you are I guess :-D	19:24
chem\|st	MohammadAG: yeah append to playlist	19:25
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, there screenshots weren't mere photoshops :P http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=892020&postcount=65	19:25
DocScrutinizer	insert to playlist, remove from playlist, cut & paste	19:25
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: gathered as much	19:25
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: otherwise I'd never have started bitching about tracker dependency	19:26
DocScrutinizer	and suggested to base on a filesystem centric aproach, with later addon of tracker	19:27
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MohammadAG	right now, the code just finds mp3s and adds them to the list, no actual playback support	19:29
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DocScrutinizer	yeah, as long as it does this via filesystem access, I'm confident this app will have a bright future	19:30
DocScrutinizer	even when later on it adds in tracker based file lists	19:31
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MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, this isn't final or anything: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=893419&postcount=96	19:31
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MohammadAG	that's with one layout FYI	19:32
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MohammadAG	I plan to move the buttons to the top, move the volume bar... actually, is one really needed? I mean, the HW buttons are easily accessible in portrait mode	19:33
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nomis	DocScrutinizer: interested in more raw data? I have captured about 10000 pulses now and 9000 gaps...	19:34
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alterego	ping DocScrutinizer	19:47
alterego	Think I might be ready to releaes a "tech preview" of Columbus into extras tomorrow.	19:50
alterego	Actually, more likely to happen on Saturday as I'm out tomorrow.	19:50
alterego	I've come up with a brainwave though as far as USB serial access is concerned.	19:50
alterego	DocScrutinizer: do you think it'd be okay, if, someone enables USB serial tethering in my app (for NMEA streaming) then I disable pnatd (stop phonet-at) and send data, then on shutdown (start phonet-at).	19:51
alterego	This would mean I hijack the 3G serial connection, but no modified kernel module is required.	19:51
alterego	I'm thinking that's what I'm going to do for this "tech-preview" until I come up with a nice polished new g_nokia driver.	19:52
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pupnik	"Developers celebrate Halloween and Christmas together because Oct(31) == Dec(25)"	20:03
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lardman	pupnik: lol	20:05
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pupnik	i'd never heard that one before lardman	20:06
lardman	it's good :)	20:07
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alterego	Heh	20:09
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jase21	Why am I not able to compile a c program using tcc in N900?	20:13
jase21	I get stdio.h not found and a couple of other errors	20:14
jase21	Did anyone tried it?	20:14
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lardman	tcc?	20:15
jase21	lardman: yes tiny c compiler for maemo-extras-devel.	20:15
jase21	Is there gcc available?	20:16
lcuk	i thought tcc was x86 specific?	20:16
lardman	gcc should be about hey lcuk ;)	20:16
lcuk	heh, the description on tcc package page even says that	20:17
* lardman heads to the pub for some good		20:17
lcuk	TCC (for Tiny C Compiler) is a small and fast ANSI C compiler. It generates optimized x86 code, and can compile, assemble, and link several times faster than 'gcc -O0'.	20:17
lardman	food	20:17
lardman	bbl	20:17
lcuk	\http://maemo.org/packages/view/tcc/	20:17
lcuk	hey lardman \o	20:17
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lardman\|away	c ya lcuk	20:17
lcuk	jase21, sdk/tools repository has everything you ever wanted but didnt have enough space to fit happily	20:17
lcuk	things like build-essential etc ;)	20:18
jase21	luck: Means it compiles to x86 on N900?	20:18
jase21	lcuk: where is sdk/tools repo?	20:18
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jase21	So tcc on N900 is actually a waste. Then I'll purge it.	20:20
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lcuk	jase21, the rabbit hole starts here: http://repository.maemo.org/ how you proceed is upto you	20:21
trx	what code editors do you use on n900?	20:21
trx	i havent found any good :/	20:22
jase21	trx: vi	20:22
* lcuk >>> gone		20:22
trx	ill check that	20:22
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jase21	There is pygtkeditor too (especially for python.)	20:22
trx	i spent last few hours coding a new one	20:23
trx	with highlighting	20:23
trx	and macros	20:23
jase21	trx: have seen vim in the repos?	20:23
trx	nope, im looking for it right now	20:24
jase21	trx: I think its in the devl repo. Btw vi comes in-buit to busybox.	20:24
trx	oh	20:25
trx	ok, vi is terminal based	20:25
trx	dont like that :/	20:25
jase21	trx: hah. then get vim or pygtkeditor.	20:25
MohammadAG	or khteditor	20:26
MohammadAG	it's a lot faster	20:26
trx	ill try them out, ty for suggestion	20:27
trx	suggestions*	20:27
jase21	MohammadAG: okay will check that.	20:27
MohammadAG	same coder FYI, but it uses PyQt instead	20:27
jase21	MohammadAG: oh Qt. Then its going to be a no.	20:28
MohammadAG	why?	20:28
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jase21	GTK is better. Don't you think so?	20:28
MohammadAG	not on maemo really	20:29
jase21	why?	20:29
jase21	Is there anything specific to Qt on maemo that makes it better than gtk+?	20:29
MohammadAG	Yeah, faster UIs	20:30
jase21	okay.	20:31
MohammadAG	actually, smoother, the PyGTK Hildon PannableArea is really slow	20:31
jase21	oh. Let me ask you something. Should I use PyMaemo or PyQt?	20:31
trx	thats why mine doesnt use py or qt :)	20:32
jase21	I was generally of the impression that C is better than C++ and so is the libs written in them.	20:32
MohammadAG	not sure, I dumped both due to Python being slow on a 600MHz device	20:33
jase21	Oh, so what do you prefer?	20:33
lcuk	s/a 600Mhz/any/	20:34
jase21	C++?	20:34
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MohammadAG	lcuk, I don't notice it on a quad core i5 :P	20:35
lcuk	you might not, but those little cores are working hard to keep up!	20:36
MohammadAG	jase21, C++/Qt, still smoother than C/GTK but probably uses a fraction more memory	20:36
jase21	MohammadAG: okay.	20:36
MohammadAG	testing Qt app (hostmode-gui v0.2) compliation on the N900	20:36
MohammadAG	can't say it's going fast	20:37
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jase21	MohammadAG: Couldn't JIT Compiled python run faster. IMHO python give a pleasent experience for programming.	20:39
MohammadAG	C++ is fun	20:39
jase21	hah	20:39
jase21	okay. You are C++ guy. :D	20:39
jase21	Did anyone install lighttpd on N900?	20:40
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* jase21 purged tcc.		20:42
luke-jr	jase21: NO	20:43
MohammadAG	real6m38.424s	20:43
luke-jr	python give a headache experience	20:43
jase21	luck-jr: what was your headache?	20:43
trx	yeah, these all suck (editors)	20:43
luke-jr	jase21: a pain in my head	20:44
trx	im gonna finish mine (which will prolly also suck :) )	20:44
jase21	luck-jr: what, not where. Hah.l	20:44
luke-jr	jase21: Python	20:44
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jase21	luck-jr: ok, don't recurse.	20:45
luke-jr	Perl, on the other hand, is relaxingly beautiful	20:45
slonopotamus	python is for losers! real men code in C	20:46
jase21	luck-jr: oh no.. you better run.	20:46
luke-jr	C is easy to debug ☺	20:46
jase21	slonopotamus: well real men code in asm.	20:46
luke-jr	no	20:46
luke-jr	only fools code in asm	20:46
slonopotamus	no	20:46
luke-jr	and low-level driver engineers	20:46
jase21	Not really.	20:46
luke-jr	yes really	20:46
luke-jr	asm isn't portable	20:47
slonopotamus	jase21, you can't write portable code in asm	20:47
slonopotamus	luke-jr, heh	20:47
jase21	My target is OMAP3430.	20:47
luke-jr	I suppose that tiny-C-subset-that-maps-directly-to-asm would make sense	20:47
trx	anyways, Delphi is the win :)	20:47
luke-jr	jase21: one-time code is useless	20:47
jase21	okay, why don't you say lisp instaed?	20:48
luke-jr	jase21: because I don't mean lisp	20:48
luke-jr	CoreBoot project has a C subset that compiles directly to asm	20:48
jase21	luck-jr: ok, agreed (one one time code ..)	20:48
luke-jr	for initializing memory controllers and stuff	20:48
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TiagoTiago	hi	20:48
luke-jr	TiagoTiago: stfu, we're talking	20:48
jase21	hah	20:49
jase21	you can call c functions from python.	20:49
jase21	so performance critical stuffs can go there.	20:50
luke-jr	I doubt that mitigates the headaches	20:50
luke-jr	probably increases the un-debuggability	20:50
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jase21	oh debugging.	20:50
jase21	It can be managed.	20:51
luke-jr	manage a segfault	20:51
luke-jr	and corrupt stack	20:51
slonopotamus	jase21, python is ~60 times slower than C and is dynamically typed. see, only disadvantages.	20:52
jase21	hmm.. well not really. Why does segfault occurs at the first place?	20:52
TiagoTiago	i'm trying to setup a SIP account from iptel.org, i already got the account on their server, but i'm having difculties figuring out what i'm doing wrong on my N900; is there a log somewhere for the chat between the N900 and the SIP server for me to see where things are borking?	20:52
slonopotamus	jase21, same question, s/segfault/AttributeError/	20:52
jase21	slonopotamus: that's sort of trading between performance and ease of coding.	20:53
luke-jr	jase21: but Python isn't easier, it's harder	20:53
slonopotamus	jase21, ease of coding when you only get runtime checking? no way	20:54
jase21	Which part of python is harder? Is it becuse its dynamically typed?	20:54
luke-jr	jase21: dunno, it's just a pain	20:54
MohammadAG	no, it's because it bitches about indentations	20:54
luke-jr	MohammadAG: that mgiht have something to do about it	20:54
luke-jr	fighting against my workflow != easy	20:54
jase21	Hmm.. these aren't really a problem.	20:54
MohammadAG	so when I have a def inside a class, inside a class, it doesn't fit on my display	20:55
luke-jr	so when I add a try: block, I have to reindent everything	20:55
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jase21	luke-jr: that's why we have better editors and IDEs.	20:56
jase21	It will do the work for us.	20:56
jase21	Okay whatever, you guys just stick with C and C++.	20:57
* jase21 is going offline. Have to sleep.		20:57
luke-jr	jase21: s/have/need	20:57
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luke-jr	jase21: and it STILL screws up diff/git/svn	20:57
jase21	ok.	20:58
jase21	for the time being.	20:58
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Choom	jrocha: vim seems good enough for me	21:09
Choom	Vjjjjjjjj> -- block of code indented	21:10
jrocha	Choom, alright, and why are you telling me that'	21:10
jrocha	?	21:10
Choom	because I'm sleepy	21:10
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Choom	and meant luke-jr ;)	21:10
jrocha	Choom, no problem	21:10
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TiagoTiago	hm, interesting, for some reason the SIP plugin was choosing the conection from Hamachi instead of the WiFi connection	21:14
GAN900	Tee hee	21:15
GAN900	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=892520	21:15
TiagoTiago	is that for real?	21:17
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RST38h	reMOO	21:21
RST38h	Another satisfied nokia customer!	21:22
luke-jr	Choom: that makes it work with diff/git/svn?	21:22
RST38h	Wait, more,many more satisfied nokia customers in this thread!	21:23
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MohammadAG	sigh	21:28
* MohammadAG connects laptop to HDTV to see all of Qt Designer's window		21:29
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timeless_xchat	anyone here use office communicator on their n900?	21:32
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pupnik	danramos is a dedicated troll	21:49
RST38h	who isn't nowadays?	21:49
Choom	luke-jr: if you're using vim you can configure it to homogenize whitespace and use custom indentation	21:50
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GAN900	He's particularly irrational in his approach, though.	21:51
nox-	moin	21:51
MohammadAG	RST38h, infobot	21:52
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luke-jr	Choom: wtf does that mean?	21:58
Choom	it means you can set up vim to replace tabs with white space as well as configure the way you indent your own code so that it doesn't cause diff-related issues	22:02
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gpreddy	ebkit	22:03
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trx	If anyone cares to check it out, here is my editor, still working on it, and have lots of more stuff to add.. so far basic editor options, plus, code highlighting, code folding, ability to open multiple files in the same time : http://www.devbin.org/txpad	22:24
trx	its compiled for arm	22:25
trx	so test it on your device	22:25
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lcuk	trx	22:29
lcuk	put it on extras-devel with source etc	22:29
lcuk	then we can use it to edit its own code	22:29
lcuk	:) and your editor has a purpose	22:29
lcuk	did you also build it on the device itself?	22:30
trx	no, im using lazarus on my pc to compile	22:31
trx	i will put it in extras	22:32
trx	as soon as i add some more stuff	22:32
trx	and figure out how to put it in repo :P	22:32
trx	have you checked it out?	22:32
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lcuk	nope	22:33
lcuk	wont run random binaries from the net	22:33
lcuk	and considering its a source code editor	22:33
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lcuk	it makes sense to offer some source to edit	22:33
lcuk	what is lazarus?	22:34
trx	yeah	22:34
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trx	its an IDE for freepascal	22:34
lcuk	that generates arm binaries?	22:34
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trx	it can generate binaries for anything	22:35
lcuk	what about dependency resolution ?	22:35
trx	(well, allmost :) )	22:35
* MohammadAG makes lcuk a binary to rm -rf /		22:35
lcuk	oooh nice MohammadAG	22:35
MohammadAG	lcuk, here's a binary that gives you unlimited bacon waits	22:35
lardman\|home	ieatlint: I've just heard that pdf417 isn't working in ZBar yet, so you might need to look at one of the dedicated pdf417 decoders that exist	22:35
lcuk	before I run it will you just test it on yourside :P	22:35
MohammadAG	yeah sure	22:35
* MohammadAG unmounts /		22:35
trx	lcuk dependency resolution?	22:36
MohammadAG	lcuk, working fine	22:36
lcuk	trx, normally theres dependencies	22:36
lcuk	for libraries you are using	22:36
lcuk	MohammadAG, cool	22:36
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MohammadAG	actually, no, missing libs	22:36
* MohammadAG makes a chroot and runs it there		22:36
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MohammadAG	lcuk, it's closed source, will you run it?	22:36
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lcuk	not from you	22:36
MohammadAG	lol	22:36
trx	i use some libs from the sdk	22:37
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lcuk	PROCEDURE whoa():	22:37
trx	and SynEdit engine for "text editor"	22:37
lcuk	BEGIN	22:37
trx	anyways, they are all open source	22:38
* lcuk nods		22:38
lcuk	bigger question, can you actually make it do compilation on device	22:39
trx	prolly just using fpc	22:39
trx	but ive never done that..	22:40
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lcuk	trx, pygtkeditor (and its followup) were self created on the device to help khertan write his python apps on the go	22:41
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RST38h	"A Baltimore construction worker was charged Wednesday with plotting to blow up a military recruiting station in Maryland after the FBI learned of his radical leanings on Facebook, joined his plot and supplied him with a fake car bomb that he tried to detonate"	22:42
trx	thats cool	22:42
RST38h	Fun on Facebook!	22:42
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trx	im not all that familliar with linux and lazarus/fpc	22:43
trx	so i cant yet do that	22:43
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trx	i work in Delphi	22:43
trx	on win	22:43
lcuk	RST38h, o_O	22:43
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pupnik	RST38h: maybe the fbi should make an online http://bombemporium.com	22:49
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pupnik	omap36xx looks to have wonderful batter life	22:52
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SpeedEvil	I don't see the fundamental problems with the current one.	22:55
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SpeedEvil	It's more software issues.	22:55
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* NooBmonk3y blinks		22:56
trumee	Damn. My ISP has switched off its 2g signal. No other choice apart from 3g	22:57
trumee	Three UK has started sucking now.	22:57
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trumee	NooBmonk3y, Spoke to their customer service. they said 2g has been switched off :(	22:58
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* NooBmonk3y is confused		22:58
NooBmonk3y	who what where when why	22:58
trumee	cant believe it since 3g is crappy indoors.	22:58
trumee	they say i am in a good 3g signal area which is definitely not the case	22:59
NooBmonk3y	so they turned off 2g?	22:59
NooBmonk3y	wtf?	22:59
trumee	yes!l!!!! pigs	23:00
trumee	funny thing is that their coverage checker also says poor 3g signal indoors.	23:01
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alterego	Interesting	23:02
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trumee	i have complained but dont have high hopes.	23:02
GAN900	SpeedEvil, I'll take a process shrink, though.	23:03
SpeedEvil	GAN900: sure	23:03
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NooBmonk3y	random for a company to turn of 2g?!	23:06
NooBmonk3y	off*	23:06
GAN900	SpeedEvil, I do agree, though.	23:07
GAN900	Software is the bigger issue	23:07
SpeedEvil	NooBmonk3y: Not really - from memory 3 gets their 2G by buying capacity off someone else.	23:08
SpeedEvil	This means that they have to pay extra	23:08
NooBmonk3y	true SpeedEvil	23:08
NooBmonk3y	but still odd to just turn it off	23:08
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NooBmonk3y	i'd understand swapping to use another supplier	23:08
NooBmonk3y	2g is still defacto tbh	23:09
NooBmonk3y	if there was only 3g near me i'd be buggered for 30 miles lol	23:09
SpeedEvil	NooBmonk3y: you're in the UK>	23:09
SpeedEvil	umm	23:09
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NooBmonk3y	yup	23:09
lcuk	i thought gravity was pretty much fixed at 1g	23:09
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NooBmonk3y	lcuk, you sure?	23:09
SpeedEvil	If you do not make vmany voice calls, i suggest t-mobile PAYG	23:09
lcuk	around these parts	23:09
NooBmonk3y	lcuk, i hear in australia, you fall upwards	23:09
lcuk	o_O	23:10
SpeedEvil	With 6-mo internet boosters @ 1G/mo	23:10
SpeedEvil	If that works for you	23:10
NooBmonk3y	not bad, but i'm on contract as i can never afford the phone price up front	23:10
SpeedEvil	3 quid/mo internet = win	23:10
SpeedEvil	Ah	23:10
NooBmonk3y	will be starting to look at my next device in jan feb , woooop :)	23:11
lcuk	SpeedEvil, does that also have SMS allowance?	23:11
SpeedEvil	lcuk: no	23:11
SpeedEvil	lucent: 10p/each IIRC	23:11
SpeedEvil	lcuk:	23:11
SpeedEvil	lcuk: Well - I think if you top it up every month, then yes.	23:11
lcuk	eek	23:11
SpeedEvil	But I don't	23:11
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lcuk	i top up £15 a month PAYG with O2	23:11
lcuk	for calls	23:12
lcuk	and with that I have SMS and data bolton	23:12
SpeedEvil	I have made maybe 2 quids of calls in a year and a bit	23:12
SpeedEvil	:)	23:12
NooBmonk3y	lol SpeedEvil me too, use about 20 mins a month outta my 600 free lol	23:12
NooBmonk3y	and probably 30 texts tops	23:12
NooBmonk3y	but could easily use 3+g of data :\|	23:12
MohammadAG	alterego, what's the radio-button like thingy you added in Columbus's QMenuBar?	23:13
NooBmonk3y	so i'm v carefull with my vodafone one lol	23:13
* NooBmonk3y is a little lucky, as my lovely vodafone account manager at work, has managed to boost my 500mb limit ;) hehehe		23:13
* lcuk calls from home mostly but keeps mob for other uses		23:13
SpeedEvil	NooBmonk3y: yeah - t-mobile PAYG is very good value for those that don't call or text much, but want 1G/mo internet	23:14
* MohammadAG never uses home phone		23:14
MohammadAG	I hate monochrome orange-lit displays	23:14
lcuk	your home phone has a display grin	23:14
* lcuk still recalls rotary dial		23:15
alterego	MohammadAG: It's an action group	23:15
* NooBmonk3y grins		23:15
alterego	Someone do a rotary dialoer application :D	23:15
alterego	Apple fags would love that! :D	23:15
MohammadAG	alterego, so it's not maemo-specific?	23:15
alterego	MohammadAG: it's not maemo specific no.	23:15
MohammadAG	alterego, should be easy with Qt	23:15
alterego	But it is maemo specific how its' rendered.	23:15
alterego	Very, hang on I'll pastie the code.	23:16
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trumee	lcuk, £15/mo. unlimited sms, 1GB internet, 300 minutes. 1month contract	23:16
trumee	cant get a better deal than this.	23:16
lcuk	o2 offered me home broadband too recently	23:17
trumee	i am quite happy with Virgin Media, dislike adsl	23:17
lcuk	which was fun but incompatible and slower than cable	23:17
alterego	MohammadAG: http://pastie.org/1363382	23:17
trumee	lcuk ++	23:18
alterego	It's the top bit.	23:18
alterego	Ignore my loop, just expand that to one cycle per item you want there.	23:18
alterego	There's a maximum of four.	23:18
MohammadAG	alterego, thanks :)	23:19
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alterego	MohammadAG: you realise if you keep asking for examples you could gain the entire source of columbus ;)	23:20
lcuk	alterego, it would just be simpler on a git repo	23:21
MohammadAG	alterego, I'm already putting the pieces together :P	23:21
MohammadAG	lcuk, it's not FOSS	23:21
lcuk	yeah	23:21
alterego	Yet	23:22
alterego	It will be, I've finally decided ;)	23:22
alterego	Just making bluetooth streaming a bit more user friendly, then I'll upload it to extras	23:22
alterego	(basically a device selector instead of having to enter the bluetooth device address specifically for client connections)	23:22
alterego	Oh, and automatic bluetooth enabling when required.	23:23
alterego	Well, prompting to enable :D	23:23
MohammadAG	yay \o/	23:25
lcuk	\o/	23:25
MohammadAG	alterego, just force enabling, it won't bring down planes, I promise	23:26
MohammadAG	enable it*	23:26
* MohammadAG wonders what CONFIG_DEFAULT_DISPLAY_VIEW is in alterego's code		23:26
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alterego	Oh, that's just a number.	23:28
alterego	I made columbus, a while ago, remember what view you were last using, so when you restarted it, it'd auto switch to that view.	23:28
alterego	That's basically me disabling it.	23:28
alterego	I found it annoying :D	23:29
GAN900	Haha	23:29
GAN900	So, my buddy's been shopping for a new car.	23:29
MohammadAG	lol alterego	23:30
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alterego	Crap, I can't even be bothered to add device lists.	23:34
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alterego	I might just release it now and work more on it some other time.	23:34
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alterego	Yeah, balls to it, I'll just sanitize the source and package it tomorrow.	23:36
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GAN900	Toyota dealership had a mint 07 Sienna with 18k on it.	23:40
GAN900	Some minister came in and "bought" it.	23:40
GAN900	But intentionally screwed up the financing	23:40
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GAN900	so he's been driving around in it for a week and the dealership been asking for it back.	23:41
GAN900	They didn't want to give it back, so they totalled it instead.	23:41
pupnik	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNo6pn-dnSQ&1&fmt=18 vmware shows Nokia N800 running Android and Windows CE - simultaneously.	23:42
alterego	GAN900: hah, that's hilarious	23:43
lcuk	GAN900, why would someone in a high profile role intentionally screw up financing	23:43
RST38h	GAN900: A true believer, indeed	23:43
lcuk	ie, do not attribute to malice	23:43
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nid0	pupnik: odd that she keeps describing it as a phone throughout the demo though, and they talk about calls coming in	23:46
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pupnik	lol	23:47
pupnik	3d eye tracking UI for mobile phones http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SImOIMcMlk&feature=related	23:47
pupnik	nid0: any luck with that package?	23:48
MohammadAG	pupnik, seen that on the N900, somewhere	23:49
nid0	pupnik: yeah, checked with my sis in law, it did finally get put in the post as a parcel at the weekend, and with a return address on it in case it doesnt reach you	23:49
nid0	also, the sauce is well nice	23:49
MohammadAG	http://johanneskuhlmann.de/blog/2010/04/28/3d-on-the-nokia-n900-through-head-tracking/	23:49
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pupnik	awesome :)	23:52
pupnik	MohammadAG: imagine running maemo/meego/nitdroid on one device	23:52
alterego	I've been meaning to do that for ages ..	23:52
alterego	(head tracking that is)	23:52
MohammadAG	pupnik, why imagine?	23:52
luke-jr	pupnik: Maemo is dead.	23:53
MohammadAG	you can get easy meego if you feel like spending an hour or so making scripts	23:53
pupnik	i'd buy vmware for n900	23:53
luke-jr	pupnik: VMWare is slow	23:53
MohammadAG	luke-jr, far from dead*	23:53
luke-jr	pupnik: if Maemo and Android worked with Linux, you could just use OpenVZ	23:53
pupnik	well, i'd want 512MB ram	23:53
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pupnik	mhm	23:54
luke-jr	MohammadAG: far beyond dead*	23:54
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Venemo_N900	hi	23:55
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jacekowski	to run android on n900 all you have to do is port dalvik to glibc	23:57
jacekowski	and then to X	23:57
jacekowski	don't bother about underlying crap	23:57
luke-jr	you're just talking about Android apps	23:58

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