IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2010-12-09

crashanddie_what does MAFW provide, really?00:01
crashanddie_Looking at the garage project didn't provide a whole lot of details00:01
crashanddie_other than "Code moved to Gnome"00:01
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MohammadAGbetter integration with maemo, for a start00:02
MohammadAGwe don't break half the apps using mafw00:04
crashanddie_not using MAFW would break apps?00:04
MohammadAGwould make them disfunctional00:05
MohammadAGnicolai's home applet, alterego's IM updater etc00:05
lcukno crashanddie_00:06
lcukcrashanddie_, what are you using them for00:08
crashanddie_fair enough MohammadAG, didn't know MAFW provided that kind of interface too00:09
MohammadAGlcuk, you missed the project?00:09
crashanddie_no he didn't, he's avoiding it.00:09
* lcuk not avoiding00:09
lcukjust letting it take shape as required :P00:09
lcuksee what things work and dont work seems to be going well00:10
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DocScrutinizer51last day I watched dbus while selecting some media in player. WOW what a funny SQL statement (though tracker's name for it is different)00:13
DocScrutinizer51so much for 'talking directly to tracker' - seems even mediaplayer does it00:13
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MohammadAGi'm off, night00:16
crashanddie_night mo00:16
crashanddie_MohammadAG: thanks a lot00:16
MohammadAGcrashanddie_, for what? you're welcome though :P00:16
crashanddie_for putting time in on this00:17
MohammadAGwell, it's either this or wasting time on something else, prolly less useful, like rock band00:17
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DocScrutinizerred drumset00:21
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DocScrutinizerhonestly, worrying about tracker should be at very bottom of your todo list, when cloning mediaplayer. First have a decent file selector for accessing media via path, then have proper management of playlists, as in insert/delete/swap/stop-after/fade-over. Then use tracker to augment info/detail for media *files* with ID3 and other things, and finally you can have a sort order based on tracker solely - as an alternative to path&fs based sort.00:26
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crashanddie_yeah, but no00:27
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crashanddie_I get your point, and it would indeed be interesting to have a nice PoC running00:28
jacekowskijust port amarok 1.4 to n90000:28
DocScrutinizeras a rule of thumb, if mediaplayer doesn't work or becomes unusable on a system where tracker got deinstalled, you severely messed it up00:28
jacekowskiwell, you need list of all files00:28
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: ++00:29
jacekowskiand traversing file system every time you want to add something to playlist isn't going to work00:29
jacekowskiadding directly from fs is not the best way00:29
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DocScrutinizerjacekowski: duh, why?00:29
DocScrutinizerBS it's the only way00:30
jacekowskino id300:30
DocScrutinizerso what? none of my media has ID300:30
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jacekowskiall my media has id300:30
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DocScrutinizerI'm not interested in that00:30
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jacekowskiand i can only find it by id300:30
jacekowskior by querying a db00:30
DocScrutinizerok, so what?00:30
crashanddie_except, jacekowski and DocScrutinizer, we're not writing shit just for your use cases00:31
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DocScrutinizerthat's the rationale why nobody may get a proper fileselector to get access to their id3-free media????00:31
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crashanddie_so stop being donkeys and keep the critics to a minimum, unless you really see us going awry00:31
jacekowskinah, file selector should be an option00:31
jacekowskibut tracker based stuff should be a base00:32
jacekowskiwith better tracker00:32
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crashanddie_guys, the way I see it, it'll be pluggable00:32
DocScrutinizeras a rule of thumb, if mediaplayer doesn't work or becomes unusable on a system where tracker got deinstalled, you severely messed it up00:32
lcukDocScrutinizer, come on, you are but one person, blended approach, lots of people like their catalogued media00:32
crashanddie_if a tracker with a db is available, we'll use it, and you'll be able to manually manage your shit00:32
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crashanddie_if no tracker is available, you'll manage your shit manually00:33
lcuki don't and tend to like folders personally, but that shouldnt prevent it working from a proper catalogue00:33
crashanddie_(by telling it which directories to watch, etc)00:33
crashanddie_I use both tbh00:33
crashanddie_directories and ID300:33
crashanddie_cuz I like the information, but I also listen to stuff on the command line00:33
DocScrutinizercrashanddie_: me too00:33
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lcukwell technically if the db retained path (I think it does)00:34
lcukthen it just becomes another bit of info in the database00:34
jacekowskicrashanddie_: well but telling it what directories to watch == making your own implementation of tracker00:34
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crashanddie_cuz giving it a directory is an instant playlist00:34
DocScrutinizerbut that's not the point about proper system architecture has nothing to deal with making tracker a mandatory base technology for your app, without any justification00:35
lcukscanning a folder full of music on desktop in realtime is reasonable thing to do on desktop00:35
crashanddie_DocScrutinizer: we're not making tracker mandatory00:35
crashanddie_DocScrutinizer: I don't know where you read that00:35
lcukscanning same folder on n900 brings it to its knees00:35
DocScrutinizer[2010-12-08 23:32:00] <jacekowski> but tracker based stuff should be a base00:35
DocScrutinizer[2010-12-08 23:31:48] <jacekowski> nah, file selector should be an option00:35
timeless_webchatlcuk: i've been told that the scanner was incredibly broken in the n900 stack00:35
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timeless_webchatso in theory a non broken scanner would be much better00:35
DocScrutinizerit needs to be the other way round00:36
jacekowskilcuk: well, inotify would be so nice if it would work on umounted filesystems00:36
crashanddie_DocScrutinizer: yeah, and last I checked, jacekowski is about on the same level to this project as you are: badmouthing it.00:36
lcuktimeless_webchat, similar issue with image thumbnailing00:36
jacekowskicrashanddie_: what about mediabox?00:36
lcukand thats got one of the most optimised jpeg libraries on the planet00:36
crashanddie_lcuk: doing an ls on a 50-file directory brings the N900 on its knees?00:37
lcukno, but you just said you like id300:37
timeless_webchatlcuk: you won't find me claiming the n900 impl of anything is good...00:37
crashanddie_well, yeah, ever heard of threading?00:37
lcukgrabbing that from the media as you show the album00:37
timeless_webchatpicasa otoh does give me media i can use00:37
timeless_webchatand it does indexing00:37
crashanddie_lcuk: remember winamp 2?00:37
* timeless_webchat remembers winamp 100:37
crashanddie_lcuk: you gave it a big ass folder, it just displayed the filename.mp3 initially, you could select, start playing, etc... And then, in the background, slowly, it would load the id3 information00:38
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lcukof course crashanddie_00:38
crashanddie_that's all I'm talking about00:38
lcuki understand the principle00:38
lcukbut even with winamp00:38
lcuki used to have to close everything to even play mp300:38
lcuklet alone catalogue it00:39
lcuk(early computer times00:39
lcukpre ghx00:39
crashanddie_lcuk: I remember loading a 300+ list of songs on a amd k6-2 300Mhz00:39
crashanddie_I'll be fucked if the N900 is slower than that00:39
lcukagreed in principle00:40
lcukcanola managed very well without a catalogue afaik00:40
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lcukspeaking of which..00:40
lcukgsoc this year was packaging canola for n90000:40
crashanddie_this is not difficult stuff, this is delaying loading the first 500 bytes of an mp3 file00:40
DocScrutinizercrashanddie_: well, I see I can delegate to you to defend my point - cya, me off for RL00:40
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alteregoI like releasing software00:41
alteregoDocScrutinizer: My package is adding an include and removing it when installed and removed to lircd.conf00:42
alteregoI'm also using update-sudoers as one of the commands I needed wasn't added lirc :/00:42
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alteregoIf you or anyone else has a 360 I'd appreciate testers :)00:44
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alteregoanyhow, bedtime g'night folks00:46
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GAN900I don't know how people make at living of handyman-style IT.01:45
GAN900alterego, ok.01:45
alteregoGAN900: ?01:45
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ieatlintyou don't see how much consultants get paid then :P01:46
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GAN900ieatlint, oh, I do, but I don't know that I could bring myself to charge for it.01:48
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alteregoGAN900: why were you addressing me? :P01:50
* DocScrutinizer wonders wtf handyman-style might be01:51
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ieatlinti assume he means when a company hires a consultant for a very brief period, such as to aid in fixing shit, or a deployment, etc01:51
ieatlinta lot will do that, as it's considered cheaper than retaining someone with a [alleged] high skill continuously, when only needed on rare occasion01:52
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alteregoStill don't know what I have to do with this :P01:53
DocScrutinizeralterego: maybe ok == gnite01:53
javispedroalterego: or he was merely pointing acceptance of your existence01:54
alteregoI couldn't sleep01:54
alteregoYeah, he likes to tease01:54
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DocScrutinizersometimes gan's comments sound a bit sinusitisoid lately01:56
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alteregoHe's oscilating between here and MeeGo a lot01:57
alteregoAt a seemingly low frequency too.01:57
javispedro... like most of us.01:58
DocScrutinizerhmm, meego goes mostly unnoticed here01:58
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DocScrutinizerseems useless effort to contribute over there01:58
alteregoI was checking the latest test results, I think 1.2 will be my switch over point.01:58
alteregoProbably before the release01:59
alteregoI reckon 2-3 months01:59
DocScrutinizermeh, meego will be nothing different to maemo. Wait til useable, then try to find out how it works, and RE stuff as nobody cared to document or share basic design rationale02:00
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alteregoActually it's mostly all there ..02:01
alteregoAt least if you get involved now you can change things ..02:01
trumeeguys, N900 wifi chip support broadcom or atheros better?02:02
DocScrutinizerreally? we already reached the point where crap is implemented and now us suckers are free to "contribute patches"?02:02
trumeemy wrt54gl got fried today. so i am getting an atheros based router.02:02
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alteregoSo you have issue with something specific in meego you think was designed poorly?02:03
DocScrutinizer...and google for documentation about what the F*CK meego is actually doing under the hood02:04
trumeebricked my router while patching openwrt on it. happy to see the sucker die. now i can get an atheros chipset and hopefully sip will perform better.02:04
DocScrutinizeralterego: actually, yes. The community design02:04
DocScrutinizerthe TSG design02:04
DocScrutinizerthe workflow design02:04
trumeebut i have heard that wifi chips like their own brands then they do others.02:04
trumeehence was wondering about wifi chip in N900.02:05
alteregoWell, why don't you join in in the community office meetings?02:06
DocScrutinizeruseless waste of time02:06
trumeei remember there was some bug report about tplink not connecting.02:06
alteregoYou seem to bitch more than proactivly participate :P02:06
* trumee finishes his monologue.02:06
DocScrutinizerI couldn't care less to bitch about it02:07
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alteregoWhat is it you actually want then?02:08
alteregoIn you perfect world :P02:09
DocScrutinizerwhat I want? Not hear any lame but-there's-meego excuses for anything here at maemo02:10
alteregoThat seems a bit pointless02:11
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alteregoWhat's wrong with moving to MeeGo?02:11
javispedrowell, one could dislike qt.02:11
alteregoIf it ticks all the boxes you like in a mobile OS02:11
alteregoSure, as lots I'm sure dislike glib,gobject,gtk02:12
javispedrosince it is philosophizing time, I'm gonna throw in my fears02:12
alteregoUnless you're developing ... What do you care? :)02:13
DocScrutinizerfor now maemo is more open and better documented than meego, and I don't see that change any time soon. Not to talk about quality of system design02:13
DocScrutinizeror maturity02:13
alteregoMaemo is not more open than meego02:13
javispedrowhen I ponder what attaches me to Maemo, I usually think people, hackability, and the fact that Maemo is the most desktop-like linux distro while still keeping reasonable usability.02:14
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: ack02:14
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javispedroWebOS also has (for me) people, hackability, but..02:14
javispedroit is hardly the most desktop-like linux distro.02:14
javispedrocustom window server, etc.02:15
DocScrutinizerwhere hackability is what I call "open in a sense of well understood and documented"02:15
alteregoThe same people are developing MeeGo, they are using what they know to have worked with maemo there aswell, with hindsight ..02:15
DocScrutinizerlike fuvar braindamaged lis302 mainstream driver, compared to rather nice maemo counterpart02:15
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javispedroand my biggest fear is that right now Meego's "main toolkit" is a toolkit owned by Nokia itself.02:16
DocScrutinizerasking what'S the rationale to use a basically broken driver for accelerometer, A was: well it's upstream02:16
javispedrowhich might cause (in fact ALREADY causes) Meego to move away from being the most desktop-like.02:17
alteregojavispedro: how so?02:17
alteregoIt's more desktop like than maemo02:17
alteregoif not in the ux in the core os ..02:18
javispedrothe sad part is that I believe this is unavoidable, because nobody wants to move desktop linux these days02:18
javispedroalterego: did you miss the "Meego is a distro on itself" part?02:18
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DocScrutinizerQ: and how's meego dealing with lis302 and other sensors? there's mce on maemo, you won't use that? A: no we use sensorfw, Q: where's that documented? A: google for it, noob. Maybe nowhere02:19
ieatlinti think one of my biggest issues with meego right now is that the sdk is only supported on apt-get, and yum/zypper distributions02:19
ieatlintwhose brilliant idea was it to do that?02:19
alteregoieatlint: what else would you install it on? :P02:20
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ieatlintsitting here on gentoo02:20
ieatlinthad no trouble installing maemo sdk, or for that matter meego 1.0 sdk02:20
javispedrobasically, competition platforms don't seem so away now (they're also "custom linux distributions" running a toolkit owned by their parent companies)02:20
DocScrutinizerergo: contributing to meego is futile effort for me. A bottomless timesink02:21
alteregoNot intel ..02:21
javispedrothat's why I also sigh everytime I see yet another thing that potentially causes a X11 application not to run as is on any Meego UX :)02:21
javispedrolet's bring in the rotation example, as I have that one in mind02:22
alteregoSo you're just going to sit here and do what exactly?02:23
javispedrohandset uses its own rotation stuff instead of X11 one.02:23
alteregoAnd for how long?02:23
javispedropros: nice rotation effect.02:23
javispedrocons: doesn't work with non Qt applications.02:23
alteregothat's a good point.02:23
javispedrohow can I convince anyone on Meego I find this stupid? even I'm not sure I would want to throw nice rotation effect just to run SDL applications.02:24
javispedroand unfortunately there is no sane way to do cool X11 rotation without SEVERE coding work on X11 itself.02:24
javispedrosomething that's out of my reach for plain time reasons.02:24
javispedroso I don't rant loudly, because I understand that Meego shipping with no iPhone-like rotation effect would doom Meego to certain failure...02:25
javispedrobut yet I'm not easy about it.02:25
javispedro(now replace "rotation effect" with all the other problems, and you get the full picture)02:26
alteregosensorfw seems pretty well documented to me, for a pre-release library ...02:26
javispedroyet another thing that's different from desktop linux.02:26
javispedrothis time, because there's nothing equivalent on desktop linux.02:26
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javispedroI meant sensorfw ;)02:28
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alteregosure, so? You don't need to use it in your apps :P02:28
javispedrobut I want to.02:28
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: full ack. The main goal in my book is "make any arbitrary app run on N900 with as little platform specific tweaking the code as possible". Meego TSG seems doesn't have this point *anywhere* on their aims list02:29
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alteregoWhy should that be a goal?02:29
alteregoOkay, they've sort of missed it completely with mtf, but still.02:30
DocScrutinizeralterego: if you don't see why, then probably it's a waste of time to discuss it with you02:30
alteregoWe've never expected that from maemo ..02:30
alteregoWhy do you expect it from meego?02:30
DocScrutinizerI expect that from every linux02:30
DocScrutinizerand meego seems to become a ""linux"" much like android is linux02:31
alteregoWell, you can, just don't expect it to be pretty ...02:31
alteregoYou can run what you want on meego, just don't expect it to iteract with the ux properly02:32
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DocScrutinizeraah, you say they haven't messed up the CPU instruction set yet?02:32
alteregoWe're moving to neon fp soonish02:33
toresbeDocScrutinizer: so you want even more badly-adapted apps for meego than there are for maemo?02:33
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BCMMDocScrutinizer: meego is going to be weird and nonstandard?02:33
alteregoWhich will be a nice perf boost, something maemo will never have.02:33
toresbethe reason it's different-looking is because it's a different user interface model... would you dismiss a Linux made for a process-control environment because it couldn't run OpenOffice?02:33
alteregoI never thought desktop like meant what you think it does :P02:34
DocScrutinizertoresbe: you are free to adapt yur apps to any degree you like. I want to be free to take e.g. OOo and simply compile it and get a miniature desktop experience out of it, however unusable and bad it might be02:34
toresbeI'd happily accept a rot13'd API if it only meant that I could get good, well-adapted, well-integrated applications02:34
javispedrotoresbe: and you're here and not on #iphone why? you quoted steve jobs.02:34
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toresbejavispedro: I care about free, I don't care about "compatible with every single other free system"02:35
javispedro"I'd happily accept a flawed/reduced API if it only meant I could get good, well-integrated applications"02:35
javispedroSteve Jobs said THAT:02:35
DocScrutinizertoresbe: that's plain BS02:35
toresbeI don't want generic X applications running on my N900. I want a good N900 calendar.02:36
javispedrobah, can't find the quote quickly enough02:36
toresbeiPhone's API constraints is an important reason for why it's a better phone than the N900 in terms of the PIMey stuff. I'd be happy with a more specialized API, I just don't want a more _restricted phone_.02:36
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DocScrutinizertoresbe: so go ahead and code it yourself02:36
DocScrutinizerfrom scratch02:36
DocScrutinizeras that's what you need to do when there's no compatibility to whatever has been there before02:37
toresbeDocScrutinizer: That's a weaselly argument and applies equally well to your own line of reasoning. It's on par with "if you like it so much why don't you go live there"02:37
javispedroDocScrutinizer: there's no need to code it, he will just use Meego ;)02:37
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DocScrutinizeryeah, Nokia's meego flavour of calendar blob02:38
javispedrowell, no calendar yet on Meego, but the reference handset one should be open02:38
DocScrutinizeras we all know maemo one was so great02:38
toresbeI don't want a blob, but I do want a calendar written for my telephone and not for my desktop and then shoehorned into my phone.02:38
javispedrowheter Nokia will use it or just distribute a blob "better" one...02:38
DocScrutinizertoresbe: you're no developer, are you?02:39
toresbeDocScrutinizer: Yes, I am.02:39
alteregoit is open, and uses kdes calndar backend02:39
DocScrutinizeroh, sorry for you then02:39
toresbeDocScrutinizer: Dude. Just because we disagree on something doesn't mean you have to be a dick about it.02:39
chem|stwe should force something looking like orage02:39
alteregoDocScrutinizer: you can run desktop apps just like you can on maemo ..02:40
alteregocraply integrated without work.02:40
toresbeI don't want an iPhone-ey "this solution is what you will use and we know better". Nor do I want 10 different buggy one-person projects with truly horrifying UIs (the Spotifies for N900 spring to mind)02:40
alteregoI was thinking today though, after someone mentioning skype..02:40
javispedrotoresbe: but having none is unavoidable02:40
javispedrotoresbe: you have to choose02:40
alteregoThat along with flash we probably wont have skype either.02:40
javispedrotoresbe: between "we know better, use this" and having a fragmented ecosystem.02:41
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toresbeI want a fragmented ecosystem with good, standardized interfaces. :)02:41
javispedrofragmented implies buggy one-person projects02:41
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toresbeSure, but it doesn't imply that they will all be that way.02:42
javispedrosomeone will eventually want to use, I don't know, Brainfuck to code an application.02:42
chem|stn900 was the first 'ships with skype' mobilephone-computer-something so I guess skype will give a heads up for meego aswell02:42
chem|stjavispedro: caldav!02:42
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toresbeI completely agree with Steve Jobs on the argument of not installing Flash. 110%.02:43
alteregochem|st: maybe02:43
alteregoWhy shouldn't we have it ...02:43
javispedrochem|st: caldav is coded using brainfuck? =)02:43
toresbeWell, for one thing, Flash can't do shit on my N900.02:43
chem|stalterego: if meego gets growing like they think it will skype will have their hand in game02:43
toresbeI've never seen a Flash app work satisfactorily on my device...02:43
chem|sttoresbe: flash can't do shit anywhere02:44
alteregochem|st: but probably not in obs :P02:44
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toresbeSure it can. Works nice on my desktop for the things open standards don't yet :)02:44
javispedroMeego will never have skype -- it's closed.02:44
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javispedroand Skype is not going to add a freely redistributable clause for no reason.02:44
DocScrutinizerand will stay closed02:44
javispedronow, device X using Meego might or might not pay Skype royalties/whatever they demand.02:44
chem|sttoresbe: I have a running 64bit linux and all I never got to work properly is java02:45
DocScrutinizerand crypted binary02:45
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alteregojavispedro: I was thinking under the same restrictions they ship their desktop version ..02:45
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javispedroDocScrutinizer: "security framework" *shudders*02:45
timeless_mbpsp3000: so, hg qpop/pull/qpush seems to be a deathwish02:45
timeless_mbp=> panic02:45
toresbeMuch like in the world of politics, freedom is only a formality when you yourself cannot mobilize the resources to take advantage of them.02:45
alteregoanyhow bedtime g'night.02:46
toresbeI have no freedom to use Google Calendar with my N900 because I don't have the time and skill to write an integration that works.02:46
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sp3000timeless_mbp: clearly you need something that works02:46
javispedroalterego: oh, *I'd wish* Meego would be able to convert the mobile application market into something vertical like the PC one.02:46
javispedroalterego: gnite.02:46
sp3000now that you've tried windows and mac, ... ;)02:46
alteregojavispedro: me too ;)02:46
sp3000I'm assuming you tried that already02:46
timeless_mbpi have OS/2 install media somewhere02:46
javispedrotimeless_mbp: BeOS works!02:46
* BCMM_ ducks02:46
timeless_mbpjavispedro: I have a BeOS derivative too02:47
sp3000ducks sounds like a more plausible computing platform02:47
toresbeMy VMS box doesn't. I powered it up the other day to counteract the effects of winter on my apartment.02:47
* sp3000 ducks02:47
javispedroI was a BeOS user before a Linux one. I think I still have GoBe Productive around =)02:47
toresbeI need to power up my IRIX box too, I'm freezing here02:47
timeless_mbpirix boxes are good as space heaters02:47
toresbeActually I think I'll power up my PDP-11 instead.02:48
timeless_mbpyou have one of those too?02:48
timeless_mbpadding [                                                      ]   43/2553 0h33m02:48
timeless_mbpsp3000: =)02:49
toresbefour in my apartment02:49
timeless_mbpadding [>                                                     ]   92/2553 0h22m02:49
* timeless_mbp is happy02:49
toresbemore in the basement, which is why my back hurts now.02:49
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timeless_mbpadding [==========>                                           ]  527/2553 6m04s02:49
sp3000timeless_mbp: the first 11 minures were cheap eh02:49
sp3000but at least it's going the right way ;)02:50
timeless_mbpclearly a slow start02:50
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timeless_mbpyeah... vbox was funny02:50
timeless_mbpvbox was making progress but steadily adding time02:50
timeless_mbp1s, 2.... 5002:50
timeless_mbpat around 50s it changed to 0min02:50
timeless_mbpuntil it actually reached 1min02:50
sp3000so was the mac disk tool repair deal too fwiw02:50
timeless_mbpthen it started adding seconds02:50
timeless_mbpadding [====================================>                 ] 1788/2553 1m09s02:50
sp3000it's ballistic estimation02:51
timeless_mbpadding [============================================>         ] 2145/2553 0m35s02:51
timeless_mbpadding [==================================================>   ] 2444/2553 0m10s02:51
timeless_mbpsp3000: so02:52
chem|sttoresbe: got 2 pdp11 at work and I would never ever think of taking one with me...02:52
DocScrutinizer  is really poor. For meego I'd expect something much better, with more detail and more discussion leading to consensual decissions about each detail. Fact however is I've not seen anything like that yet for meego02:52
timeless_mbpwhy would finnish captions translate 43 minutes into 45mins?02:52
timeless_mbpdoes finnish as a language not support minutes in units that are not multiples of 5?02:53
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BCMM_file a bug.02:53
javispedrowell, check the grammar. I guess you can find it in EBNF format around.02:53
BCMM_now who maintains Finnish these days?02:53
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sp3000timeless_mbp: which captions?02:54
timeless_mbpsp3000: ncis: <california>02:54
* timeless_mbp can't remember the right name02:54
sp3000oh, they're just really random with numbers02:54
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sp3000maybe it's the duck02:56
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timeless_mbpsp3000: hey!03:04
timeless_mbptimeless-mbp:mozilla-central timeless$ hg qser|wc -l03:04
timeless_mbp     18403:04
timeless_mbpmy qseries is <200 patches!03:04
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* timeless_mbp grumbles03:05
timeless_mbpgoogle chrome didn't save my session before the os panic03:05
timeless_mbpso i lost all my tabs03:05
timeless_mbpthankfully history works03:07
javispedrothis reminds me that Linux used to sync before a panic03:07
javispedronot anymore =(03:07
SpeedEvilFirefox saves03:08
sp3000timeless_mbp: 101+4303:09
sp3000you win :)03:09
timeless_mbptimeless-mbp:mozilla-central timeless$ hg qser -R ../comm-central/|wc -l03:09
timeless_mbp      2903:09
timeless_mbptimeless-mbp:mozilla-central timeless$ hg qser -R ../../|wc -l03:09
timeless_mbp      2803:09
timeless_mbptimeless-mbp:mozilla-central timeless$ wc -l ../../*/*/.hg/patches/series03:10
timeless_mbp     294 total03:10
DocScrutinizermrmoku seems is about to teach uboot how to play nice with N900 wd :-)03:11
DocScrutinizerI'll throw in a dirty charger, prior to publishing it03:11
timeless_mbpthere's also 32 patches to transifex03:12
timeless_mbpbut i hope those are all obsolete03:12
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Yigalhey dudes04:31
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Yigalthat's sad but I can deal04:32
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* GAN900 yawns.04:39
javispedrodid you just said "that's said" to a leaving message? :)04:39
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Yigalit's just that Maemo was so awsome04:49
YigalN900 hurt that04:50
Yigalthen Meego04:50
Yigalwell anyways04:50
Yigalyou all know the rest04:50
Yigalwe have our N900s04:50
Yigalbut it could have been way better04:50
Yigalnever again Nokia04:50
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blackthornen900 doesn't support MMS. I feel cheated, considering this is the Nokia shark for me04:51
blackthorneother than that, hell of a machine04:51
Yigalit's the most solid open source well funded project04:51
Yigalso sad04:51
blackthornewhy sad?04:52
Yigal"We aren't going to support you", Nokia04:52
YigalMeego time04:52
blackthorneMeego time, is going to take time04:52
Yigalwhy not support us in the mean time04:53
Yigalit's ok04:53
blackthornebut is it official that the N900 will not officialy support MeeGo?04:53
blackthorneI use Mac OS X and the N900 made me miss GNU/Linux as my desktop OS04:54
Yigalhaving a phone that can bt anything on piratebay etc. is fine with me04:54
blackthorne"phone", well yes N900 also makes calls04:55
Yigalssh, c, c++, fortran, maxima, etc04:55
Yigalblackthorne: lol04:55
blackthorneto be perfect, it would be the iPhone4 hardware with a removable battery and sliding keyboard04:56
blackthorneI mean, thinner and with better touch UI04:56
Yigalwhat I would have wanted is roughly the specs of the viliv s5 that works well with open source/linux etc.04:56
Yigalviliv s5 has an atom proc. 1.33mhz and I have 2gb of ram04:57
Yigalthat's what I wanted04:57
Yigalforget the galexy tab forget the droid linux time, that would have killed04:58
luke-jrblackthorne: sliding kb ftl04:58
luke-jrYigal: AFAIK, no Atom works well with open source/Linux04:59
luke-jrthey all(?) have GMA500 which has no 3D accel for Linux/open04:59
Yigal950 works fine04:59
Yigal500 is the sticking point04:59
luke-jrsome atom have 950?05:00
Yigalsure my asus netbook does05:00
Yigalwell my non tablet netbook does05:00
Yigalmy tablet has the mthr f*ng 500 my t91mt05:01
YigalI have to use windows 7 with it so sad05:01
Yigalthe EMGD is almost there I here05:02
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Yigalsorry about the obscenity but it's important to me05:03
Yigalok sorry05:03
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chxluke-jr: huh?05:03
chxluke-jr: study the 3D column.05:04
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blackthornemaybe steve is right, flash just crashed my linux machine, at least the UI05:07
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blackthornethis vilic s5 looks awesome indeed05:08
luke-jrchx: Ubuntu likes to swap Linux out for proprietary forks of it when they feel like it05:09
chxthat's totally not the case in this case.... but, as you wish05:10
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luke-jrchx: then show me the source05:10
luke-jrthat page itself says it is closed05:10
luke-jr" Due to partial close nature of the driver, because Intel has not released an open source driver"05:11
javispedroluke-jr: some atom have gma950 or descendants (gma3150 is the one on the meegoconf lenovos)05:11
javispedroconveniently, gma950 works with the i915 driver...05:12
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chxyou said " Ubuntu likes to swap Linux out for properitary forks of it" -- this is something I do not even want to begin to debate.05:13
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chxthis basically says there is a "Linux" and there are "properitary forks" of it. Really, whatever, Despite being an open source for more than six years now, I did not become a zealot. There is no point in debating zealotry.05:14
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chx*open source programmer05:14
luke-jrthat is the reality05:15
chxYour reality, of course. There is another, of course :)05:16
luke-jrthere is one reality05:17
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luke-jrit only seems like there are multiple to someone who is delusional05:17
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ieatlintthere are multiple realities05:29
ieatlinti see people all the time experiencing them05:29
b-man`it's amazing what a little robotic helicopter can do :) http://
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TermanaGood morning06:07
luke-jrieatlint: delusions are not realities06:12
eggonleaDocScrutinizer: Thanks, I guess the battery is too low. Charging the BL-5J in N810 - thanks someone's post in internet and Quim.06:13
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GAN900luke-jr, difficult thing to objectively measure.06:27
ieatlintyeah, i'd say reality is extremely subjective06:28
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GAN900Now, try sitting in front of a mirror and saying your own name 100 times slowly.06:29
luke-jrGAN900: measurement is another matter :_06:30
GAN900luke-jr, did you bring this damn cold weather down with you?06:31
luke-jrGAN900: sorry ☹06:34
DocScrutinizereggonlea: good :-) and welcome06:41
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infobotextra, extra, read all about it, xyawn is coffee06:55
infobotDocScrutinizer: :)06:55
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DocScrutinizermo moh07:03
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johnx~lart phone companies07:30
* infobot pries phone companies's back open with a screwdriver and flashes a new bootldr to phone companies07:30
johnxI wish it was that simple infobot, but thanks for the thought07:30
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lollooguys what are these?08:07
lollooare they somekind of recording?08:08
johnxsome kind of control for switching which camera is used by default08:09
RST38hmoo all08:13
RST38hmorning/night johnx08:13
johnxmornin' RST38h08:14
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MikaTlolloo, johnx: I believe the picture is about a package called "maemo5-load-applet", and the camera icon on the right if for taking a screenshot.08:15
johnxah, maybe so then. thanks08:15
lollooI still need to scroll down to get to flashlight08:18
lolloobut in the screenshot it seems constant08:18
lolloohow can I make all apear without scrolling the status menu?08:18
lollooI have 5 lines including the battery, but the sixth line is hidden08:19
lollooneeds scrolling down more.08:20
sleepeehello people08:20
sleepeeare there any developers here?08:20
johnxwhat kind of developers are you looking for?08:21
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MikaTlolloo: I suppose you have lots of packages installed which add their icon there. Not all apps do that, but some do.08:22
sleepeeanybody that develops for n900... python specifically.08:22
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sleepeei was just curious if anybody's used illumination software creator to make apps for the n900..08:23
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Gh0styhmm swappolube crashes when started08:33
Gh0styis there a way to debug this actually ... why an application is crashing? :/08:34
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Gh0styactually what am i asking ... first look at the logs :x08:36
johnxtry and run it from an xterm08:37
Gh0stylastlog is 8.4 MB but a tail -50 lastlog gives nothing???? :/08:37
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DocScrutinizerlolloo: johnx: the left one is for screencasts (taking video screenshots), the right one is triggering a picture screenshot08:40
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johnxI ASSumed, and it seems I was wrong :)08:40
lollooI thought it would be something related to streaming camera over to pc08:41
DocScrutinizerand yes, it's a icing on top of load applet08:41
Gh0stywhere the sip module implements api v8.0 but the pyqt4gui module requires api v7.108:42
DocScrutinizernot that screen video works exceptionally well for me. I get jumps and dropouts that make it basically worthless08:42
DocScrutinizerkinda fast forward video08:43
Gh0styi need to upgrade PyQT or something?08:43
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Gh0styalready been thinking to scratch my whole n90008:45
Gh0styand start over from a new install :/08:45
Gh0stybut reinstalling all applications ...08:45
Gh0styrestoring a backup probably drags in dirty stuff? :/08:45 a snap with backup app08:45
Gh0styso i better export a package list?08:45
Gh0stynono i mean scratch as in complete reflash the whole thing08:46
APTXit drags in your contacts08:46
DocScrutinizerbackup app is just doing that: keeping a list of apps to re-install08:46
Gh0styI think it got corrupted and gui settings? :p08:46
Gh0stydamn sorry08:47
Gh0styand the gui layout ?08:47
Gh0styis that kept?08:47
johnxyou can tell backup to keep or not keep various different things08:47
DocScrutinizerhow about simply starting it and see for yourself?08:47
johnxwhen I backup-reflash-restore, I choose to only restore contacts, events and conversations usually08:47
Gh0styDocScrutinizer: well I did not consider yet to reflash08:48
Gh0stybut lately it got screwed up so much ... :/08:48
DocScrutinizerGh0sty: so what? it's not forbidden to use backup/restore any time you like08:48
Gh0styok :P08:49
DocScrutinizerand honestly, if a restore of a backup taken 5 minutes before would alter your system, then you really had a reason to bitch at Nokia08:49
Gh0styyou gave me confidence ... this weekend I'll reflash :)08:49
Gh0styI'm always a bit afraid to start over ... on desktops the same ... :)08:49
Gh0stybut especially on my phone :p08:50
DocScrutinizerGh0sty: Did I suggest to reflash?? o.O I said you should start backup app and make yourself comfortable with it08:50
Gh0styI guess for you guys thats in a blink of an eye :p08:50
Gh0stynono I have backups thats not the problem ... it's just I never tried a restore before either ...08:51
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Gh0styusually upgrading just resolves most issues08:51
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DocScrutinizerso why don't you just do that?08:51
Gh0styI will but for now I still want to be able to work ;p08:51
DocScrutinizerrestoring to the system state of now-5min must not do any harm, no?08:51
Gh0styno :)08:52
DocScrutinizerthen you know what you're going to face when you do a restore after flashing08:53
DocScrutinizerwhich should make you feel much less scared08:53
Gh0styah so swappolube is missing the pyqt dependency ... :p08:53
Gh0stythats the solution08:53
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lollooguys how can i rmove the battery from there?V08:55
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* DocScrutinizer is wondering who's maintaining backup app. Should learn to strongly recommend to user to do a backup prior to a restore run09:00
DocScrutinizerbackupA... <time goes by>... backupB-then-restoreA, <check if state A is what you expected>->(NO):backupC-then-restoreB09:02
DocScrutinizerlolloo: MohammadAG managed to do that, it's actually not that complicated. But... do you really want to do that?09:03
lollooyes I do please09:03
lollooI need more space for other applets09:04
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lollooI tried powatool, but it removes also the battery on top09:04
DocScrutinizeryes, there's no other way afaik09:04
lollooI just need the one in the menu to leave09:04
DocScrutinizerthat's why I asked if you're sure09:04
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lollooDocScrutinizer, thanks.09:05
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DocScrutinizeractually the menu is scrollable. Except when you try to drag the simple brightness applet volumeslider (a *BUG*! duh!)09:06
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lolloohehe now I noticed09:07
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DocScrutinizerI have to say the notification about the fact there's some content out of view and you need to scroll, is poor. Wait ... is there *any*?09:08
lollooI agree, but we are half way there.09:08
DocScrutinizeranother flaw? or qualifies this as a veritable bug as well?09:08
lolloono I call it little tweak09:09
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lolloook what about the volume bar?09:10
lolloocan it be removed?09:10
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DocScrutinizerwhen you shut down PA :-P09:10
lollooI dont think I will need it, I can use the buttons09:10
DocScrutinizerno sound -> no volume slider :-P09:10
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DocScrutinizerI seem to remember a file where sort order of those buttons in system menu is defined. Maybe it can do other things as well09:12
DocScrutinizeror was that positioning of the tiny icons in systray only?09:13
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eggonleaDocScrutinizer: Just FYI. N900 gets back to work with the latest Maemo. Thanks again! Would try MeeGo tomorrow...09:43
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# gupdatedb09:45
DocScrutinizerfind: unrecognized: -fstype09:45
DocScrutinizerBusyBox v1.10.2 (Debian multi-call binary09:45
DocScrutinizer~lart busybox09:45
* infobot pulls out a ClueBat (tm) and thwaps busybox09:45
* DocScrutinizer is waiting - bat in his hands - for the first one to say "you're supposed to use tracker for that, not locate"09:48
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tybolltis it clear yet whether there will be a maemo 6 or not?09:49
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DocScrutinizerisn't that called meego HE?09:50
johnxDocScrutinizer, nah. I think that's something else09:50
johnxor something09:50
johnxgah, I don't even know anymore. forget I said anything09:50
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pupniknokia, remember how some of us were saying 'build a larger internet tablet' 3-4 years ago?10:18
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tybolltnokla lusers speak -> the cult of apple listens10:25
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djszapisomeone with archlinux and automatical usbnetworking here ? => I would like to implement this operation in archlinux, basically.10:27
trxanyone knows if a "Y cable" actually works with n900 ?10:27
DocScrutinizeryes, it does10:28
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crashanddietrx, yes, but the N900 keeps answering "BCUZ" on the data line.10:28
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DocScrutinizercharging of N900 in hostmode not implemented in h-e-n yet10:28
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trxoh, so no use for it yet?10:29
DocScrutinizerbut you can power peripherals and save N900 battery10:29
trxand if i use active hub10:29
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trxwill n900 conserve the energy10:30
trxor send it anyways?10:30
DocScrutinizeractually if you don't hit the [VBUS] button in h-e-n GUI and instead apply external power at that moment, it should also wok10:30
DocScrutinizercharging still is disabled10:31
infoboti heard thwap is /me thwaps $110:31
DocScrutinizeras h-e-n has to stop bme, and so the N900 will run off battery10:32
DocScrutinizerthis will change this year10:32
trxlooking forward to it :)10:32
DocScrutinizerso, a Y-cable is a good idea anyway10:32
Arkenoiwhere can i get one?10:33
DocScrutinizermost external drives come with a Y-cable10:34
Arkenoi it is the thing i use now, costs about $310:34
DocScrutinizerOUCH! the poor usb receptacle10:35
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DocScrutinizerseems you still have warranty :-P10:35
Arkenoitil April, my fitst n900 was stolen so i bought new one this spring :-)10:36
DocScrutinizerhmm, I wonder if they will replace it when you rip off the receptacle like that10:37
trxim waiting for the same thing to arrive10:38
trxbut use cable instead10:38
trx(dont want to rip the port out :) )10:38
trxlet me show you what i use now :D10:38
RST38hEHLO all10:40
RST38hHey Arkenoi10:40
Arkenoithis thingie is tiny, though, so i may carry it with me just always10:40
DocScrutinizertrx: you also can try if bme behaves when on hostmode with external VBUS. Just do a `start bme` and see if hostmode stays while charging kicks in. You might see strange effects though10:40
Arkenoianything bigger like cable will prbably stay at home most of the time10:41
* DocScrutinizer waves and heads out for breakfast10:41
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trxDocScrutinizer ill try that, good idea10:43
trxlook at my adapter :D10:44
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pupnikwell is now down10:49
crashanddienote: I made a paypal payment 8 minutes ago with no issues10:49
tybolltpupnik: the wikileaks-emo-bunch that is killing them?10:50
pupniki suspected this might happen yes10:50
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tybollt<-- from .se, and not really proud of the .se DOJ :-|10:50
MohammadAGlolloo, no, you don't want to do it10:51
pupnikwell .se has plenty of great free-speech advocates10:51
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MohammadAGthe applet is needed for "Charging" "Battery low" etc notifications10:51
MohammadAG/usr/share/applications/hildon-status-menu or sth10:51
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MohammadAGmv the .desktop file10:52
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RST38hOMG they took out paypal :)10:54
JaffaMorning, all10:58
JaffaMohammadAG: Presumably there's a Qt interface to Tracker. Harmattan must be using it, for example ;-)10:58
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tybolltwhat does harmattan mean these days, maemo 6 or meego?11:00
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ieatlint"hybrid edition" is i believe what they're calling it11:01
ieatlintharmattan isn't meego, isn't maemo... but somewhere in between11:02
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ieatlint(and rumour has it will be what's featured on the n9)11:02
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DocScrutinizerJaffa: why should there be a Qt interface? Tracker has a dbus interface11:08
RST38hDoc: To be able to stop tracker by pressing the large red button11:09
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RST38hLabelled "Die. Die! DIE already!"11:09
tybolltRST38h: 'manager mode'? ;)11:09
* RST38h considers removing AllAboutSymbian from his RSS feed. The site has become really desperate lately.11:10
tybolltRST38h: how so?11:12
tybolltmichal running yet another one of those "buy your apps here bla bla discount" campaigns? :11:13
tybolltehr wait that's my-symbian11:13
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* tybollt heads for another cup of coffee11:13
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lardmanhmm, TMO is a horrible bitchy snipey place these days...11:18
lardmanmoring all :)11:19
lardmanhmm, spelling gone already11:19
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trxmornin' *11:19
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RST38hMoo, lardman11:20
lardmanhey RST38h11:20
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lardmanhmm, is BlessN900 not open source?11:25
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lardmanhow're you pupnik?11:27
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jacekowskilardman: fcamera can do more11:28
lardmanjacekowski: yeah just looking at that11:28
lardmanwondering if it could support arbitrary plugins11:28
lardmanGoogle Goggles style stuff11:28
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chem|stlardman: fcamera is hardware api first and imagemanipulaiton second... the programs are proof of concept and quiet good, have a closer look and see yourself11:30
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chem|stlardman: nokias ovi panorama is one of it afaik11:31
lardmanoh right, is that an Ovi store app?11:31
lardmanHAM couldn't find it when I tried yesterday11:32
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lardmanI didn't spot a way of saving to jpeg in FCamera, is there one?11:34
ieatlintswipe your finger vertically down the screen and there'll be a config screen11:34
lardmanah :)11:34
ieatlintone of the options is save to jpeg..11:34
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lardmancool, thanks11:35
lardmanThis was a Nokia research project wasn't it?11:35
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lardmani wonder why FCam::saveJPEG() doesn't use the DSP as the normal camera app does....?11:35
ieatlintyeah, out of NRC and with help from standford students11:36
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ieatlintlook at hdrcapture too... also by them... pretty cool11:37
lardmanFCamera does hdr, is hdrcapture better then?11:37
ieatlinthdrcapture automates the process11:37
ieatlintit decides how many photos to take based on brightness, and merges them11:38
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lardmanhmm, time to look at jpegenc_sn.dll64P I guess11:46
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lardmanhi Venemo_N90011:48
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DocScrutinizerlardman: watch their website, I don't think blessn900 is meant to be FOSS11:52
chem|stlardman: ieatlint guess it was the other way round, stanford people with support from nokia, I doubt that nokia has a high interest in such stuff if they would need to put much work/manpower in it11:52
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lardmandocscrutinizer: yeah I'd assumed as much11:53
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lardmanchem|st: righty-ho11:53
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ieatlintchem|st: dunno, all i can say is that i went to NRC a couple weeks ago and saw a nokia employee give a talk about it with two standford students assisting11:54
Venemo_N900ieatlint: a talk about what?11:54
ieatlintand hdrcapture11:54
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chem|stieatlint: my boss gets slides from me on topics he never worked on just to have him give the talk as representative...11:55
ieatlintrather sure that wasn't the case here :P11:56
Venemo_N900ieatlint: interesting11:56
ieatlinthe was answering very technical questions with a clear understanding of it11:56
lardmanobviously the students explained it to him very well ;)11:56
chem|stieatlint: same goes for projectmanagers11:56
ieatlinti got the impression he was a project lead that ran a team of students11:56
ieatlintyeah :P11:56
chem|stieatlint: wasn't it diploma or master thesis?11:57
ieatlintdunno, that wasn't really discussed11:57
ieatlintmight be able to find the slides... let me see11:57
chem|stieatlint: thought they might have mentioned11:57
chem|stieatlint: doesn't really matter does it11:58
ieatlinteh... satisfies curiosity perhaps11:58
chem|stieatlint: at erandum...11:59
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ieatlintfound the guy who gave the talk.. kari pulli11:59
lardmanhmm, how can I download Panorama?12:00
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chem|stah ok maybe it is a coop project then12:00
RST38h  <=== Deborah Orr isn't getting it12:00
chem|stlardman: store.ovi.com12:00
lardmanon PC?12:01
lardmandoesn't work on-device12:01
ieatlinthah, no slides posted, but this link is
ieatlintso that kinda clues in a bit, hehe12:01
chem|stlardman: ? store does not work on device?12:01
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lardmanno, says it's not available for my device12:02
chem|stieatlint: that page was the funding of my thoughts on it was stanford and nokia got interessted12:03
chem|stlardman: manipulated browser ID?12:03
ieatlintchem|st: looks like you're right then12:04
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ieatlinti have a feeling nokia facilitated it all though, including handing out a few devices12:04
JaffaDocScrutinizer: I meant a Qt-based abstraction of Tracker's DBus iface; but you're right - could go straight to DBus12:05
chem|stlardman: that page?12:05
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lardmancan't get it, I get redirected back to the incompatible page12:06
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chem|stieatlint: you were close though, was close to believe you...12:07
chem|stlardman: you are logged in?12:07
ieatlinthah, people who know me know better than to believe me12:07
lardmanchem|st: how? I can't get any Ovi page to display on my N90012:08
chem|stlardman: apt-get install panorama? (dont know if thats the package name... want me to look it up?)12:08
chem|stlardman: WHAT?12:08
chem|stlardman: do you use microB?12:09
lardmanapt-get install panorama is correct, but I get something like "handler sliently failed"12:09
lardmanye, microb12:09
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lardmanseems Ovi doesn't like my device12:10
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chem|stlardman: I was able to load any page I came along yet as long as my browser ID wasn't customized12:10
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chem|stplease go dostortugas.org12:10
chem|stlardman: on the top line there is your browser output shown12:11
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lardmanMaemo browser12:11
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chem|sttry via pc, login, send to device12:12
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lardmanhow does that work?12:13
lardmanhow does it send it?12:13
chem|stlardman: I guess sms idnk12:13
chem|stjust a link12:14
lardmanI can't see it working12:14
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chem|stwhy you arent able to bbrowse ovi is weirtd enough12:14
lardmansms sent, just waiting now12:14
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chem|stcopy/paste the browserline from your website pls the12:15
lardmanthe failed one on the N900?12:15
chem|stfrom the website I just gave you12:15
chem|stsry typo12:15
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lardmanIt had my IP, then Maemo Browser12:16
chem|stcopy paste pls12:16
chem|stwithout ip12:16
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lardmanI can't, I have to type it, as XChat is running on my PC12:16
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Carnequewireshark available, where are repositories for that?12:24
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chem|stCarneque: yes and idk is it extras-testing?!12:29
jacktheripperthe n900 only supports H.264 _BASELINE_ ?!12:29
chem|stuse and enter wireshark in the search (top right)12:29
JaffaBTW, anyone know of any tools to open a PPTX with a password where you've forgotten the password in question?12:30
Carnequechem I did that12:30
chem|stCarneque: one sec12:30
CarnequeI did that in the downloads section, my bad12:31
chem|stJaffa: as you can rule any microsoft product you may do that also but I have no clue12:31
chem|stit is in devel12:31
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CarnequeIf I add fremantle extras-devel free i386 to my repositories can I add it through app manager?12:32
chem|stJaffa: just to give you hope!12:32
chem|stCarneque: i386?12:32
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balzushi all12:32
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Carnequethat's just the name of the repository on the download section12:33
chem|stCarneque: look at your extras entry12:33
chem|stCarneque: armel is n900 architecture not i38612:33
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Carnequeone last question, where is the sources list?12:33
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infobotrepositories are frequently old.12:34
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Carnequehave you seen that Seinfeild where Kramer is playing movie phone?12:35
CarnequeWhy don't you just tell me what movie you'd like to see?12:35
chem|stCarneque: on the bottom is how to activate it, pls do yourself a favour!!! do not install anything else while the repo is active and deactivate it afterwards12:36
balzusI have a project to compile that has a file12:36
balzusI get this error:blablabla/cstdlib ::malloc has not been declared12:37
chem|sthi balzus12:37
balzushi chem|st12:37
balzusmy cstdlib is in another folder, do you know how can I inform the compiler that the library is in another folder12:37
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Carnequememory allocation problem?12:38
Carnequenm, I know little12:38
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schaschHi...can I do a "power-button"-press by software (C-code    /or/    dbus-call   /or/   Qt)?12:41
chem|stschasch: idk but look yourself, start dbus-monitor and have a look what happens, the other way.. it is a hardware button but as I dont knwo anything about the envy management of mamo5 idk if there is a simple "send event"12:42
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schaschchem|st: cool...your idea helped....
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schaschchem|st : I have to make a dbus-call with it12:47
chem|stschasch: no time for that now... just helped lardman and gtg soon...12:47
schaschchem|st: OK...thanks ..I didn't know the monitor till now...   :-)12:48
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ieatlintwow, that panorama app is awesome12:55
ieatlintneed to play with it tomorrow...12:55
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jase21Can pymaemo control the changing the profile (silent <-> general) in N900?12:59
alteregoYou can do it through dbus so yeah12:59
jase21I saw some script (dbus script) in the fcron wiki. But I would like it to be done using python without using fcron.12:59
jase21Is that possible?13:00
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lardmanyes, just implement dbus command in your Python script13:00
jase21But how about tracking time?13:01
jase21I want to change the profile at 9 to silent and at 6 back to general without using fcron.13:01
jase21So does that need fcron?13:01
jase21(I'm a python newbie)13:01
lardmannot necessarily, but if you don't use cron then you'll have to have your python script running all the time waiting for the time to change13:02
jase21The problem is suppose I want to distribute the script. The the target device should also have fcron preinstalled for my script to work, right?13:03
lardmanyou create a package for your script and one of the dependencies will be fcrond13:03
jase21umm.. so where will the package manager get the fcron from? Its not in extras as well as extras-devel13:04
jase21Its in some ruskies repo.13:04
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lardmanoh I see13:04
lardmanAsk him to push it to extras-*13:05
ruskiewon't happen ;)13:05
lardmanOtherwise it will still work - the use will have to just manually install that package for your package to install13:05
jase21ruskie: Why?13:05
jase21lardman: I wanted to make it simple enough.13:05
jase21Click - install - work13:06
ruskiebecause I dislike those repos and policies around them13:06
lardmanI can't help there then, but it would make life easier for jase2113:06
ruskiecan always query the user to add my repo... install fcron and then remove it13:06
jase21lardernan: Is there buit in mechanism in maemo 5 similar to fcron?13:06
jase21ruskie: okay. I'll resort to fcron as the last resort.13:07
lardmanno idea, ask ruskie13:07
ruskiethere's some alarm api thing13:07
ruskiethat could allow for this13:07
ruskieI think there's even an alarmd somewhere in extras13:07
jase21ruskie: okay. Can I have it called from python (pymaemo)?  Uhh.. alarmd is buggy.13:08
lardmanruskie: is fcron standard?13:09
lardmani.e. unpatched13:09
ruskieit's standard as far as cron13:09
* jase21 is checking that link.13:09
ruskieI don't patch things13:09
lardmanin which case, assuming you're happy with it, I'd just get jase21 to build from your package to upload to extras-devel13:09
lardmanassuming you don't want anything to do with extras13:10
jase21lardman: You want me to upload fcron to extras-devel? Why can't ruskie do it?13:11
lardmanjase21: he doesn't want to13:11
lardmanjase21: but I don't want you to, it would just make your life easier13:11
jase21lardman: So that means I would have to maintain fcron?13:11
jase21lardman: oh, damn.13:12
lardmannot a big problem13:12
lardmananyway talk to ruskie13:12
jase21lardman: hah. okay.13:12
DocScrutinizerjase21: alarmd, alramed13:12
ruskieit was just a repackage of the debian package13:12
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jase21DocScrutinizer: I'm looking into the alram framework13:13
lardmanWhat ever happened to Shepherd?13:14
jase21I have another doubt. If I need to automate the change of profile, the say I installed fcron, then fcron will be running all the time in the bg, right?13:14
lardmancron for time, and location13:14
lardmanjase21: yes13:14
DocScrutinizeruse alarmed13:15
jase21lardman: So how does fcron work? Does it poll the OS to get the time or .. ?13:15
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ruskiejase21, it sleeps13:15
DocScrutinizeruse alarmed13:15
jase21DocScrutinizer: Okay13:15
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ruskieit takes no noticable resources13:16
ruskieI use it to change profiles and other things13:16
Choomjase21: man 2 alarm13:16
jase21ruskie: okay,  but  how does it know its 9 am  if it is sleeping?13:16
jase21Does the OS wake it up ?13:17
Choomthe kernel can schedule events13:17
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ruskieit knows the time it's being setup/started13:17
ruskiethen it just says I need to start in nnnnnnn seconds13:17
DocScrutinizerafaik fcron isn't using alarmd. Alarmed though is using alarmd.13:17
DocScrutinizeruse alarmed13:17
Choomand if you're wondering how the kernel itself knows, it can program the microcontroller's PIT which is basically a hardware-based alarm clock that's usually used to cause task switching to schedule an event for later13:18
jase21DocScrutinizer: No I wanted to make my own alarmed (like) utility.13:18
DocScrutinizeralarmd will handle RTC wakeups as well13:18
jase21DocScrutinizer: heh, for learning actually.13:19
alteregojase21: why?13:19
alteregoboring :P13:19
jase21alterego: No. Why?13:19
ruskieI love it when people try doing stuff on their own(and no not being sarcastic)13:20
ruskieI actually don't see a problem with people reinventing the wheel and so on13:20
lardmanthough it's a shame if people have to spend time learning something that is not their goal13:20
jase21ruskie: yes. Its not reinventing wheel.13:20
lardmanthat's perhaps not the case here though13:20
Choomrather see people questioning stuff that just taking everything for granted13:20
alteregojase21: well it is :P13:21
Choomthe question about how alarm() works is a good demonstration that jase21 wants to understand how things really work13:21
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DocScrutinizerwell, implementing a new app without even knowing about existing stuff is a tremendous waste of time and energy13:22
jase21What I want is automate the changing of profile to silent when I'm at work and back to normal when I'm out of work. Also its a simple one to get started to digg some maemo related code, instead of using a pre-made one13:22
ChoomDocScrutinizer: it's not a waste of time if you're learning and extracting entertainment out of it, at least that's how I see it13:22
DocScrutinizeruse alarmed13:22
jase21Is that a weired idea?13:22
lardmanjase21: no13:23
chem|stDocScrutinizer: isnt there already something at least wip?13:23
jase21lardman: okay.13:23
lardmanwhat would be better, would be to write a cron-type app that handles both times and locations ;)13:23
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jase21lardman: what do you mean by locations?13:23
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ruskieusing the gps13:24
chem|stjase21: lardman: use something that already knows about time and day, so you do not add threats13:24
ruskieI thought there was already a location based thingy13:24
lardmanin the same way that cron triggers jobs depending on the time, this would trigger jobs depending on the location13:24
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lardmanruskie: not that I know of, I know Sheperd was going to be something like this13:24
* DocScrutinizer shrugs13:25
jase21oh nice one. For that I need to have exact gps positions mapped. But in this part of the world gps isn't that accurate like in US.13:25
DocScrutinizerweird folks13:25
jase21hah :D13:25
lardmanjase21: you need to differentiate between gps accuracy and map accuracy13:25
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jase21umm.. didn't get it.13:26
chem|stwas about 30km off lately and do not know why...13:26
lardmanyou could record your home and work locations, and use them directly rather than needing a map lookup, etc13:26
jase21lardman: oh' okay.13:26
lardmanchem|st: was that because you didn't have a gps fix?13:26
lardmanand were using base station triangulation?13:27
DocScrutinizernobody is using BTS triangulation13:27
chem|stlardman: I have gps and network location on and my position was just fine, but the route to Lon|Lat would have send me somewhere in the woods 30km of track13:27
DocScrutinizerexcept me13:27
chem|stlardman: so had nothing to do with my location but with the maps13:28
lardmandocscrutinizer: how does the coarse accuracy method work then?13:28
DocScrutinizernot even police *can* use BTD triangulation13:28
jase21Is there a pymaemo reference to alarmd? My C foo is weak.13:28
DocScrutinizerit's a mere circle shaped area around your servicing BTS13:28
lardmanchem|st: ok, so a map error again13:28
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chem|stlardman: yes13:29
lardmandocscrutinizer: ah fair enough, I gave them more credit13:29
DocScrutinizercoarse accuracy as in maemo even uses center of country if you got bad luck13:29
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: that's not precise13:29
chem|stlardman: and the network positioning works like "ah you see these 4 cell towers so you must be somewhere around $this position"13:29
jase21Any python experts here?13:29
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lardmanjase21: not an expert, but what do you want?13:30
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: rapuyama queries agps server with network mnc+mcc+cell id13:30
jase21lardman: alarmd reference for pymaemo13:30
lardmanchem|st: well that's reasonably close to triangulation ;)13:30
lardmanjase21: no idea, google!13:30
jase21okay, I'm googling13:30
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: only if you're connected to the nets13:31
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: so there is support for coarse accuracy usign data from bts13:31
jacekowskibut it's like 20km accurate13:31
jacekowskibecause i believe it's using single bts for it13:31
DocScrutinizeror like 2km13:31
chem|stlardman: gets weird when celltower ids get randomized by replacing a tower with another one about 600km away in another city... when I use umts network my first location is 600km away from my actual position and I wont get a gps fix as most of the satelites on sight arent the ones expected13:31
jase21Is it better to use C than Python? Seems like its sort of difficult to get hold on api docs for python than for C.13:32
lardmanso what is this tower "triangulation" service you use?13:32
lardmanjase21: they may not exist13:32
DocScrutinizerchem|st: it doesn't work like this, usually13:32
lardmanin which case you need to generate the bindings yourself13:32
chem|stlardman: reasonable close to triangulation would be some kind of function calculating a coarse position but afaik it is just guessing your psoition13:32
DocScrutinizerchem|st: also each cellid is unique13:33
jase21lardman: okay. I'll try using C. Hmm..13:33
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: within mnc+mcc13:33
DocScrutinizerfor that ncc13:33
lardmansure, but what is the service you use that has a db of celltowerid vs lat/lon?13:33
DocScrutinizererr mnc13:33
chem|stDocScrutinizer: I know, and was really curious about an explanation why umts shows somewhere 600km north-east and gsm just fine?!13:33
DocScrutinizerbug in database13:34
chem|stlardman: any maps program using the location api has that13:34
lardmanreally? I thought they worked from direct lat/lon or IP lookups13:35
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DocScrutinizerchem|st: also there are no comprehensive official such databases for lat/lon of cellid13:36
DocScrutinizercheck openbmap project13:36
DocScrutinizer~seen onen|openbmap13:36
infobotonen|openbmap <> was last seen on IRC in channel #openmoko-cdevel, 70d 17h 7m 49s ago, saying: 'got to go. bbl'.13:36
chem|stDocScrutinizer: yeah but the networkpositioning service is something like that...13:37
lardmanthat uses IP locations13:37
DocScrutinizerwhich networkpositioningservice?13:37
chem|stok where did I miss the part about IP?13:37
chem|stisnt n900 networkpositioning service that you request satelite cache from server for known cellIDs?13:39
lardmanah, SUPL13:39
chem|stand get also your guessed position based on cellIDs sent?13:40
lardmanbut only to bootstrap the GPS chipset13:40
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DocScrutinizeryou're all talking gibberish to me13:40
lardmanso you actually get almanac/ephemeris data sent for your approx location13:40
chem|stlardman: actualy no, I can use that service completely without GPS13:41
DocScrutinizerlardman: for this (called assisted GPS, AGPS) you need an estimation to size of a medium sized country13:41
DocScrutinizernot better13:41
lardmanyep, but do you get a lat/lon sent back?13:41
lardmandocscrutinizer: well 100miles or so13:41
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chem|stgoogle-maps for java phones for example can guide you pretty good without any gps13:41
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DocScrutinizersure, they h ad those streetview cars recording every WLAN and the data that it transmitted13:43
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Choomagps is pretty accurate where I live, but not accurate enough to replace the GPS, it's usually a few blocks around of where I am, good enough to use inside buildings, terrible as a GPS replacement13:43
DocScrutinizerW*T*F AGPS *IS* GPS13:43
lardmanChoom: you mean the SUPL data?13:43
chem|stDocScrutinizer: my w880i has no wifi, and the gps mouse is not supported by most programs it is able to run13:43
DocScrutinizerit can NOT replace GPS13:43
Choomlardman: yes13:44
chem|stDocScrutinizer: I do not talk about agps13:44
lardmanso how do you access that data?13:44
ChoomDocScrutinizer: not technically13:44
lardmanby talking to the SUPL server directly?13:44
DocScrutinizerChoom: educate me13:44
chem|stChoom: me too pls13:44
lardmanbecause coarse accuracy in liblocation asks the basestation to provide a location13:44
Choomwell, cell phone antennas aren't exactly GPS satellites13:45
DocScrutinizerlardman: nobody ever asks any BTS for any location13:45
lardmandocscrutinizer: how does coarse accuracy work then?13:45
Choomand thus you can't call that GPS13:45
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DocScrutinizerand BTS never provides location (except O2 in germany on CBC221)13:45
Choomit Assists your GPS, it is by no means a GPS in itself13:45
DocScrutinizerChoom: BS13:46
DocScrutinizerAGPS == Assisted Geo Positioning System13:46
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DocScrutinizerA without GPS doesn't make any sense13:46
lardmandocscrutinizer: - how does this work if not by querying the location of the basestation?13:47
chem|stChoom: by definition AGPS is GPS with network supported almanac downlaod13:47
ChoomDocScrutinizer: that doesn-t make it a GPS now, dows it13:48
DocScrutinizerit is maybe querying the location of the BTS of the given CID. But it doesn't query the BTS about that, cause the BTS won't answer13:48
DocScrutinizerChoom: google is your friend. wikipedia even more13:48
ChoomDocScrutinizer: I'm using rhetoric13:49
lardmanthe data is routed via the basestation, without requiring an internet connection13:49
chem|stlardman: it does not talk to the tower asking it what location it is in, it needs a server to ask about the CID13:49
DocScrutinizerlardman: citation needed13:49
lardmandocscrutinizer: I'll dig one out, was from talking to the liblocation folks in Berlin13:50
chem|stlardman: ehrm I thought it needs internet at it has to ask a server for info...13:50
lardmanAmsterdam perhaps13:50
lardmanthat's only for the AGNSS method13:50
lardmani.e. needs an internet connection13:51
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DocScrutinizerlardman: what now? needs, or needs NOT?13:51
lardmanafaiu ACWP does not need an internet connection, but does need a connection to the network13:52
DocScrutinizerublox AGPS (the gps used in OM FR) is via a server hosted by ublox, or a proxy hosted by you. All are via internet13:52
lardmanyes, that is SUPL13:53
lardmani.e. that is a SUPL server it talks to13:53
lardmanthis method is called AGNSS in liblocation13:53
chem|stand CWP does not need a connection at all?!13:53
lardmanwell the country code is transmitted when it connects to the netwok afaiu13:54
DocScrutinizerI might accept the possibility GSM specs seen an supplement to enable AGPS in dumb phones (the USA shit), that is somehow implemented in GSN without need for a internet connection13:54
DocScrutinizergiven the fact the GPS is connected to rapuyama and can be activated without support from application processor system, makes that even more likely13:56
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chem|stlardman: ok just tested, CWP does nothing if no cache is available for the CIDs around, after once used ACWP CWP knows the position, what now would be to test is what happens when I drive outside the known area13:58
DocScrutinizeranyway, I can positively tell the BTS has no really good notion about where the MT is located. And triangulation needs highly precise timing sync between neighbour BTS that's simply not implemented anywhere13:58
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chem|stlardman: and yes ACWP returns lat/lon13:58
macmaNwhatsup allz13:58
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macmaNhow to debug when maemo emulator says no initfs on startup13:58
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lardmanchem|st: of course, I was talking about whether the SUPL server returned lat/lon before13:59
DocScrutinizerso best you can obtain from GSM is usually a circle of arbitrary diameter where in you are located, with BTS in center13:59
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DocScrutinizeror a segment thereof (for directional antennae)13:59
chem|stlardman: so yes supl returns lat/lon13:59
lardmanno, supl is not acwp13:59
macmaNmad-admin list says i have qemu-n900-pr13 as default13:59
lardmansupl is the protocol used to return agps assistance data14:00
chem|stlardman: acwp doesn't work without internet so who to ask then?14:00
lardmanchem|st: ok, in which case I was wrong and docscrutinizer was right, I stand corrected14:00
chem|stso what does the supl server supply then?14:01
lardmanthough awcp works for me without a net connection afaicr14:01
lardmansupl supplies almanac & ephemerides14:01
chem|stbased on CID?14:01
lardmanbased on whatever you give it14:02
lardmanbut yeah cellid would be normal14:02
DocScrutinizerlardman: supl is even configurable anywhere in N900 settings iirc14:03
lardmanyou can set the server14:03
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DocScrutinizerset it to your own transparent proxy, to learn about what it does :-D14:04
lardmanor just download the spec docs14:04
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lardmanso without a net connection, my position is shown using coarse accuracy ACWP14:06
chem|stlardman: reading broadcoms white-paper it says SUPL is much more than you are talking about and AGPS (almanac and stuff) is only one service out of many14:06
lardmanthough I'd have to move and check it's not cached of course14:06
DocScrutinizeror coordinates based on currently used GSM base station. Latter is used if such information exists in device's cache, which is updated when ACWP method is used14:06
lardmanyes that's true14:06
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lardmandocscrutinizer: but how is it updated, over the gsm network or via an internet connection?14:07
lardmanchem|st: the yes it's trye was for you :)14:07
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DocScrutinizerlardman: LOCATION_METHOD_ACWP - Assisted Complementary Wireless Positioning: A method where device is located based on cellular base station to which device is registered to. SIM card and a network connection is needed for ACWP method. If no network connection is available, this equals to CWP14:08
lardmanyeah but who wrote that in the wiki?14:08
chem|stlardman: "The SLP is a server or network equipment stack that handles tasks associated with user authentication, location requests, location-based application downloads, charging, and roaming." SLP=SUPL Location Platform14:08
balzushi all14:09
lardmanchem|st: yes indeed14:09
DocScrutinizerlardman: there's "history" menu entry for that, in wiki14:09
chem|stlardman: as I just said once I had ACWP locate me I was able to use CWP14:09
lardmananyway, I can't be bothered to argue, I'll admit defeat, though I still think that ACWP does not require anything more than a GSM connection14:09
balzusI ve installed opencv on the scratchbox but now that I m trying to run a simple program in there I get linking errors: error: undefined reference to cvNamedWindow etc14:09
DocScrutinizerlardman: LOCATION_METHOD_ACWP - Assisted Complementary Wireless Positioning: A method where device is located based on cellular base station to which device is registered to. SIM card and a network connection is needed for ACWP method. If no network connection is available, this equals to CWP14:10
balzusIf I compile outside the scratchbox it works... (i m using pkg-configure)14:10
chem|stlardman: SUPL technology as in separated network layers isn't implemented to masses yet14:10
lardmandocscrutinizer: shall I also repeat my response?14:10
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chem|stlardman: I will test that as soon as I leave town and tell you after that14:11
lardmanchem|st: all I said was that a SUPL server is used to provide data to bootstrap the gps14:11
DocScrutinizeryou maybe should read the full wikipage14:11
lardmandocscrutinizer: I did14:11
DocScrutinizerso it sounded like fool's talk to you?14:11
chem|stlardman: and you said it does not supply lat/lon14:11
lardmandocscrutinizer: you seem to be an expert in matters GSM, so I shall bow to your infinite wisdom14:12
DocScrutinizerno, I'm a noob compared to e.g SpeedEvil14:12
lardmanchem|st: no, I said it provides alamanc and ephemeris data and possibly lat/lon, I then asked whether whoever it was had been able to access this SUPL data, as I doubted it14:12
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chem|stlardman: so you think the BTS supplies the most data?14:13
lardmangood God, have you guys all got out the wrong side of bed today?14:14
derf_I_ am still in bed, so no, not yet.14:14
chem|stlardman: actualy that is the idea of SUPL, to have a separate networklayer implemented in wireless networks to provide all data without affecting any effects of normal usage14:15
balzusno one?14:15
DocScrutinizerhey, you claim our beloved brick has a new cute function that nobody of us ever heard of. You're surprised we want to know the whole story?14:15
lardmanah, shall I reiterate14:15
chem|stbalzus: no clue! but a package compiling on your desktop might need some hands-on for compiling for another architecture14:16
lardmanchem|st: I know what SUPL is for, the question was simply to ask of whoever it was who said that they were using the SUPL data to obtain lat/lon directly whether they were actually doing this, or whether it was coming by some other method14:16
tybolltDocScrutinizer: 'brick' :-D14:16
DocScrutinizerlardman: maybe sort your talk and your arguments chain, rather than reinterate14:16
chem|stlardman: yes that is the point! why would I powerup battery hungry GPS/wifi if there is BTS positioning14:17
lardmandocscrutinizer: my understanding, quite possibly wrong, but based on a talk I saw at one of the Maemo summits, was that ACWP does not require an internet connection, but does require a GSM network connection, possible with some layer ontop, I don't know, I'm certainly not claiming to have any expertise in the matter14:17
DocScrutinizerI said I'm willing to think of that as a possible way things work, actually even said it's likely regarding how the hardware works14:19
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chem|stlardman: that is the general idea, not used as they make money with not using it!14:19
DocScrutinizerbut then we should be able to see a ACWP -enable command sent to rapuyama/cellmo and it coming back with proper 1000m accuracy lon/lat immediately14:20
lardmanI really wish I'd never even mentioned SUPL14:20
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lardmandocscrutinizer: yes, that would be a way of testing it, I'd like to know whether it works14:21
chem|stit is like tesla had ideas of powersupply OTA but everyone could use it without payment so none of the companies will ever do research on that14:21
DocScrutinizerlardman: obviously needs support of carrier14:21
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lardmanI'll have to ask SpeedEvil what his opinion is later on14:22
DocScrutinizeryep, a good idea14:22
chem|stlardman: the SUPL servers you enter into n900 settings is actually a workaround for IP based SUPL14:23
DocScrutinizerobviously, as it's a internet DNS URL14:23
chem|stDocScrutinizer: aye CAPTAIN14:24
balzuschem|st: got it14:24
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balzusI have found that only the highgui library isn-t recognized14:24
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chem|stDocScrutinizer: but there is a lot of space for more data in gsm and umts not used that much14:25
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schaschHi, I still can not send the command over dbus to get:14:25
schasch-signal sender=:1.11 -> dest=(null destination) serial=10691 path=/org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/computer_logicaldev_input; interface=org.freedesktop.Hal.Device; member=Condition14:25
schasch   string "ButtonPressed"14:25
schasch   string "power"14:25
schaschin dbus-monitor --system14:25
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schaschI tried "dbus-send --print-reply --system /org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/computer_logicaldev_input org.freedesktop.Hal.Device string:ButtonPressed string:power"14:25
schaschbut the answer is: "Error org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name was not provided by any .service files"14:25
schaschcan not fins anything about it (dest=???) ? Any ideas?14:25
chem|st160 chars long, sent on every SYN/ACK of celltowers14:26
DocScrutinizerschasch: it's a signal14:31
DocScrutinizerthat's why dest=(null)14:31
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schaschDocScrutinizer : thanks, so not possible to do it by software (dbus-send or c-code) ?14:32
schaschDocScrutinizer : I want to fake the powerpress ...14:33
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chem|stschasch: why don't you fake waht you want to do instead?!14:38
chem|styou want the menu pop out?14:39
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balzusI m compiling in scratchbox opecv but I get this error>: cannot find -lpython2.314:39
balzusI have installed the intere nokia package so I shouldn-t get this error14:39
schaschchem|st : no I want to show the time whenn N900 is locked14:40
schaschthis problem gets me crazy...14:40
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schaschfaking the button would show screenshot 114:41
chem|stschasch: that might help14:42
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schaschchem|st : thanks, I will have look!14:42
chem|stschasch: but wouldn't it be a much more logic way to keep the display on without unlocking instead?14:43
schaschchem|st : NO, I want to lock it!14:44
chem|stschasch: and you know that keeping the display lid will dry the battery even while charging14:44
chem|stschasch: YES "without unlocking"14:45
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schaschchem|st : display on is no problem, but showing the time and keeping display on is a problem14:46
schaschchem|st : the link you showed me is to use dbus in c-code? or didn't I get it?14:47
schaschchem|st : dbus-send would be OK for me14:47
schaschchem|st : if I use c-code I also have to know the args to set this signal, or ?14:48
chem|stschasch: what about a desktop homescreen clock?14:48
schaschchem|st : see   too14:49
schaschchem|st : I want to have a secured/locked device14:49
lardmanbalzus: wrong version of Python14:50
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lardmanbalzus: might be caused by the fact that sb comes with its own old version of python14:51
schaschchem|st : batterie is no problem for me14:52
chem|stschasch: now I get it... you know about timed slideshows used in digi-picturestands as fun-clocks? maybe that would be a brilliant idea as you said you get mplayer to play14:52
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schaschchem|st : "you know about timed slideshows used in digi-picturestands"   no,what's that?14:54
schaschchem|st : mplayer . microwindows text2screen work14:54
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schaschchem|st : because of writing directly in framebuffer14:55
schaschchem|st : so no problem, even if N900 is locked14:55
balzuslardman: uhm so what can I do_14:55
schaschchem|st :  the key-screen is not painted often, so no prblem to use framebuffer14:56
schaschchem|st : but powerbutton by software shows the clock and would be nicer14:56
chem|stget a picture slideshow output to fb timed to your needs14:56
balzusit says also: skipping incompatible /scratchbox/blabla/libpython2.3.a when searching for -lpython2.314:56
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Venemo_MohammadAG: ping14:57
lardmanbalzus: what does "which python" say?14:59
balzusI fix it, I use ./configure --host+arm14:59
balzushost=arm *14:59
balzusthx anyway14:59
schaschchem|st : I want to use my N900, this device is the best and I can do almost everything with it, exept this 'stupid' function when it is locked  :-(15:01
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chem|stschasch: I am not talking about buying a picturestand but implementing what they did at the n900!15:11
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schaschchem|st : ah ja  :-)  sorry15:32
schaschchem|st : the only way to implement it is by using the framebuffer when it is locked, operating the keys (to unlock) is difficult that way15:34
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SpeedEvillardman: /15:35
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lardmanhey SpeedEvil15:36
lardmanDoes ACWP require an internet connection, or can it be performed over the GSM network?15:37
josemdvdfsomeone can help me ?15:39
SpeedEvilno clue15:39
SpeedEviljosemdvdf: no, nobody can help you.15:40
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lardmanSpeedEvil: we were expecting big things from you - in fact a pronouncement on the subject :)15:42
lardmancrashanddie: pong15:42
ieatlintjosemdvdf: note that you should ask a question, and not a question to ask a question..15:44
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ieatlintlardman: you wrote mbarcode right?15:45
ieatlintthanks :)15:45
lardmannp :)15:45
ieatlintit works awesomely :)15:45
SpeedEvillardman: What's the acronym?15:45
lardmanAssisted Complimentary Wireless Position15:46
ieatlinti'm writing an application that may end up needing to decode 2d barcodes... mind saving me a couple min and letting me know what licence that part of the code is under?15:46
lardmanyeah whole thing is GPL15:46
lardmanieatlint: but in that case you might be better looking at zbar directly15:46
ieatlintthat'll do nicely15:46
lardmanas that is the actual decoder15:46
Venemo_josemdvdf: we can't help you if you don't tell us what you need help with15:47
lardmanthere's the videowidget class in mbarcode which probably does what you need15:47
lardmanincludes the gst pipeline + decoder threads15:48
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ieatlinthmm, so the videowidget class is based off of gstreamer?15:49
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lardmanit's a Qt widget15:49
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ieatlinti want to expand a program i have written to read ID cards to support the 2d barcodes found on many north american ID cards15:49
lardmanbut you need to get the video data in somehow so you have something to decode15:49
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lardmanwell you could ask mbarcode to send the decoded data to your program via dbus15:50
ieatlintyeah, i saw the plugin interface15:50
lardmanyour program can remain independant and be woken via dbus calls too15:51
lardmanor at least that's what I'm working on atm15:51
ieatlintissue is i want it to be 1) straight qt (if possible) to make it portable and 2) have the two methods of authentication done through one interface15:51
ieatlint(the second method, which is already implemented, verifies an ID card through its magnetic stripe)15:52
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DocScrutinizerschasch: (lock clock) why do you need a locked device?15:52
lardmanwell you'll have to do some hacking then15:52
ieatlintthat's fine... you should've seen the hack i had to do to get the magstripe reading done before PR1.3 fixed shit15:53
lardmanwhat do you use to do the reading?15:53
DocScrutinizerschasch: you know a fulscreen window displaying a clock and simply discarding every X-input event is just as good as a lock anyway?15:53
ieatlintaudio interface15:53
lardmanah ok15:53
ieatlintrequires a hardware dongle15:54
schaschDocScrutinizer : when I I am at work and leave the room15:54
ieatlintbut i have a near unlimited supply of them for free, heh15:54
lardmanyeah I guessed that ;)15:54
schaschDocScrutinizer : how can I disgard X?15:54
ieatlintPR1.2 and earlier put all recorded audio through a PA filter15:54
DocScrutinizerschasch: you can set up this pseudo-lock app in a way it would actually lock the screen when you manage to kill it15:54
lardmanieatlint: I didn't realise that15:55
DocScrutinizerschasch: why would you want to discard X?15:55
schaschDocScrutinizer : I mean the input what you meant...15:55
ieatlintmeant i had to use libpulseaudio-simple to access the audio interface directly in order to get it working...15:55
DocScrutinizeryour app could use full screen window so no systray or window title is shown15:55
ieatlintwas a nasty method calling PA from qt15:55
schaschDocScrutinizer : yes that was also the idea...check the maximized state of an app15:56
schaschDocScrutinizer : right now I am looking how to do it in Qt15:56
DocScrutinizerthen you monitor for sighup, sigint, sigterm etc and fire up a lock-device dbus cmd15:56
DocScrutinizeralso do the same when somebody is trying to steal focus, e.g via ctrl-bs15:57
ieatlinthappily PR1.3 fixed this, although i see no associated bug closed, and i can use qaudioinput... and have a code base that works on maemo, symbian, windows, linux, os x... and i blindly presume meego15:57
Venemo_schasch: you can use Xlib from a Qt app too15:57
schaschah yes. loosing focus,... if I find out how to do it in Qt, I will write an clock-app for it15:58
lardmanieatlint: well you may have problems with the barcode decoders then15:58
lardmanieatlint: what type of 2D code is it?15:58
ieatlintuh, one sec, pulling up specs15:58
DocScrutinizerschasch: lock-clock - nice idea15:58
schaschDocScrutinizer : I already show the time in my first garage-project
schaschnow only check if it is not on top anymore15:59
schaschDocScrutinizer : I would make the clock bigger of course15:59
lardmanah, stacked 1D then16:00
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schaschDocScrutinizer :
lardmanieatlint: not sure if pdf417 is currently supported by zbar16:02
lardmanhmm might be in one of the SVN builds, will have to compile and see16:03
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ieatlinthmm, quick look and i find an faq that says "Support for PDF-417 has also been started."16:03
lardmanyeah, not sure if it's finished though16:04
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DocScrutinizerschasch: is this via WLAN?16:04
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ieatlinthmm, ok, i'll look at it and see where it's at16:04
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ieatlintthanks for your help :)16:04
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schaschDocScrutinizer : yes WLAN for changing channel...16:05
DocScrutinizerschasch: ...or CIR?16:05
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lardmanieatlint: I was planning on testing svn versions of libzbar and libdmtx this week anyway, so will let you know if it works16:05
schaschDocScrutinizer : my VDR got eth16:05
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ieatlintok, cool16:05
ieatlinti'll likely be starting my testing soon... i'm in part waiting on some ID card samples to arrive16:06
ieatlintdon't have any with this barcode type to test on at the moment, heh16:06
Venemo_quote of the day from #meego:16:06
Venemo_[15:03:01] <Jucato> leinir: I guess I just expected too much from 2 industry giants working together with Stskeeps16:06
lardmanieatlint: google image search ;)16:06
ieatlintperhaps... but that would only confirm that it could read the barcode type, not the formatted data i need to parse :)16:07
DocScrutinizerschasch: I used 2 N900 to 'create' a WLAN range extended CIR remote for my TV :-)16:08
lardmanieatlint: ah, I see what you mean16:08
DocScrutinizerschasch: was a matter of changing one IP, in irreco16:09
schaschDocScrutinizer :   :-)   cool  , I do it with my dvb-t-VDR  Siemens-m74016:09
DocScrutinizerschasch: I was wondering if a TCP proxy could link irreco to your VDR16:10
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DocScrutinizerschasch: the proxy would open localhost:7890 for talking to irreco, translate data coming from irreco via a simple schell script lookup table, and send it out to your VDR IP16:12
DocScrutinizershellscript with netcat would be all you need I guess16:12
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DocScrutinizerwell, plus sed maybe16:14
DocScrutinizeror awk16:14
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schaschDocScrutinizer :  I do not know exactly what you mean16:23
schaschDocScrutinizer :  my vdr-app works for me16:24
DocScrutinizerschasch: never mind then. Just brainstorming about alternative concepts16:24
schaschDocScrutinizer :  do u need something else for your solution?16:24
schaschDocScrutinizer :  OK16:24
schaschDocScrutinizer :  I am now trying to solve my dammed lock-clock-problem  :-(16:25
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DocScrutinizerschasch: just as irreco has a clumsy skin editor, for buttons etc16:25
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DocScrutinizerand is also sending via TCP16:26
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schaschDocScrutinizer : on download success I will make my app  a little nicer16:26
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DocScrutinizerjust the data format isn't the one you'd need16:26
schaschDocScrutinizer :  for me it is now ok and only 11 downloads and no feedback till now from users16:27
DocScrutinizerso I thought a data format conversion plugin for irreco would be a nice universal solution16:27
schaschDocScrutinizer :  the svdrp should be implemented16:27
schaschDocScrutinizer  : now I do understand16:28
schaschDocScrutinizer : my VDR has also CIR, but till now I only had the time to setup my TV in IRRECO16:29
DocScrutinizerWLAN for sure much better than CIR16:29
schaschDocScrutinizer : yep16:29
DocScrutinizerirreco talks to lirc via local loopback network - it could as well talk to a converter that doesn't control IR-LED but instead sends converted data to VDR via WLAN16:31
alteregoIf you want to use lirc, you can have a look at my app.16:31
alteregoDeclaring the skin in QML is quite joyful16:31
danydo you know if there is a way to know the nokia token that are you using?16:32
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schaschalterego : wich app do you mean?16:43
schaschDocScrutinizer : got the lock-clock implemented in my qvdremote  :-)16:44
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schaschDocScrutinizer : I have to open a new garage16:44
schasch<alterego : wow....nice!16:45
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alteregoschasch: it's a qml framework for talking to lirc on the N90016:46
alteregoBut that's packaged specifically to be an XBox 360 remote, but you could, looking at the QML source, make it control any configured remote with lirc.16:47
danyCould not exec dpkg!16:48
danyE: Sub-process dpkg returned an error code (100)16:48
danyanyone has ever got this error?16:48
schaschalterego : OK thanks16:48
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BCMMthat's kinda pretty, apart from the xbox logo16:52
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danywhat a bloody error..16:56
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jacktheripperdany, try this:
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danyjacktheripper: thx I'm going to try it :)17:18
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danyjacktheripper: tried but there is not the dpkg in my scratchbox17:23
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danyI don't know why17:23
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danyin /usr/bin there are only: [sbox-definitiveARM: /usr/bin] > ls17:24
danycatchsegv  cc  gencat  getconf  getent  ldd  locale  localedef  mtrace  rpcgen  rpcinfo  tzselect  zdump17:24
jacktheripperuh what !?17:24
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jacktherippertype 'which dpkg'17:24
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danywhich: no dpkg in (/host_usr/bin:/scratchbox/devkits/svn/bin:/scratchbox/devkits/qemu/bin:/scratchbox/devkits/perl/bin:/scratchbox/devkits/git/bin:/scratchbox/devkits/doctools/bin:/scratchbox/devkits/apt-https/bin:/scratchbox/tools/bin:/targets/links/arch_tools/bin:/scratchbox/compilers/bin:/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/X11R6/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin)17:25
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danyI can't install anything17:38
danyit's like if I have not the dpkg17:38
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jacktheripperyou don't have dpkg17:42
jacktheripperdid you install nokia-binaries ?17:42
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pupniklocal linux root escalation exploit published Dec 07
dRbiGhmm, kind of spamming again: does anyone know if a 32gb microsd card will work with n900?17:49
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chem|stdRbiG: should17:51
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DocScrutinizer51pupnik: forgot your root passwd?17:52
dRbiGDocScrutinizer51: that 'yes' was to my question? :)17:52
dRbiGhehe, ok, thx17:52
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dRbiGi guess my 16gb pendrive that i bought this year is kind'a obsolete now17:53
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dRbiGhowever it still has the advantage of being much more what-ever-bad-happens-proof than a fragile n90017:54
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chem|stdRbiG: it is not fragile... dropped stairs, 2m on concrete, 0.5L direct splash wheatbeer-coke mix... that does not sound fragile17:56
dRbiGchem|st: luck which i usually lack17:57
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dRbiGanyway, that's good to hear17:57
DocScrutinizer51Well the IP (intrusion proterction) isn't that great for liquids, in general17:57
dRbiGi still have high hopes of my n900 surviving with me for few years at least17:58
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DocScrutinizer51damn, hope you're not THAT ill17:58
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pupnikDocScrutinizer51: no it's just a curiosity sorry for the ot17:59
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DocScrutinizer51pupnik: eh?18:00
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DocScrutinizer51I got a few tritium lights which I'm absolutely sure will shine on my tomb18:01
DocScrutinizer51but n900...18:01
sivanghi all18:01
sivangcan anybody please toss me the links to trapping SMSs and possibly running a script with them/ when they arrive?18:01
sivangI had links for this on forum and wiki, but damn gmail18:02
sivang"never delete, just search" does not really work18:02
sivangwhe you've used gmail for long enough18:02
sivangI don't need to decode them, just forward them18:02
sivangif there's an app for that, that's also good18:02
sivangnow that I think of it, there's a call forwarder app somewhere that can be used for the same purpose18:04
DocScrutinizer51call forwarder app?18:05
DocScrutinizer51how'd that work?18:05
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DocScrutinizer51you're not talking about starhash and *61*5554565#, are you?18:06
sivangDocScrutinizer51: I have no idea what I am talking about. but I recall an python app, that traps calls and does soemthing on them18:07
sivangquite easily I remember it would be to switch the trapping with listening to sms dbus events18:07
sivangand act upon them as well18:07
sivangnobody has the link or the app name or so? :)18:08
DocScrutinizer51meh, forget that nonsense call forwarding app. It's a subset of *#ena with a useless GUI18:08
sivangokay, but trapping sms's and forwarding them, e.g. using the dbus api to send them onward?18:09
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DocScrutinizer51no idea18:09
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DocScrutinizer51there's python and other code to send an sms, somewhere on wiki18:11
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DocScrutinizer51but trigger on reception...18:12
sivanggmail is a pile of nonsense18:12
sivangno use to search through stuff long ago18:12
* sivang sighs18:12
BCMMDocScrutinizer51: tritium has a half-life of 12 years or something18:12
sivangDocScrutinizer51: there was something like that18:12
DocScrutinizer51I seem to remember there's been a wipe app that nulls your device on a sms key18:13
DocScrutinizer51BCMM: exactly18:13
Maceranybody notice the browser in maemo randomly crashes when typing in an address when it tries to pull up the history?18:13
Maceror is it just me18:13
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BCMMmine just randomly loses all it's history from time to time18:14
Macerthat too :)18:15
sivangBCMM: had that, but it never crashed18:15
sivangit never crashed to me18:15
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sivangnomatter how much stress I've put on it or os18:15
DocScrutinizer51I just noticed ^F is useless esp on zoomed pages18:15
sivangDocScrutinizer51: google is also useless in searching throgh maemo wiki as well18:16
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DocScrutinizer51hmm really?18:16
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Macerwell. i keep having it randomly crash18:19
DocScrutinizer51maybe run it under gdb control?18:20
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Macerhow well does n wifi work?18:21
Maceranybody here use it much?18:21
Maceri was wondering if it could really stream high def video well18:22
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DocScrutinizer51errr, depends on AP and client18:22
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alteregoMacer: works great at my parents.18:24
alteregoSuper speedy :D18:24
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DocScrutinizer51not with n90018:25
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nomisDocScrutinizer51: I recently was wrong btw. LIRC on the n900 *can* deal with raw codes. No idea if I was just confused or if this was impossible in earlier maemo releases.18:29
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alteregonomis: I think you were confused ;)18:32
nomisthe accuracy of the IR transmitter and/or its driver is pretty bad though.18:33
nomisI did a test with 100us to 5000us pulses (in 100us steps) and captured the real timing with a IR receiver. Fitting a line against this data set shows, that the pulses on average are too long for about 133us.18:35
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sivangah, so nice.18:50
sivangall sms's are in the sqlite db18:51
sivangselect * from Events where event_type_id=718:51
sivanggets you all the SMS's18:51
MohammadAGas well as all convo logs18:51
sivangMohammadAG: yes, very cool, I mean, we like to complain about Maemo but the thigns you can do with it :)18:52
BCMMnomis: is there a predictable delay in turning the transmitter off? maybe it would be possible to take it into account18:52
sivangso there's code on the wiki to encode PDU18:52
MohammadAGffs why is xchat beeping18:52
sivangand to send, there's as well. all pieces are there. Now just code.18:52
sivangthanks people, again18:52
DocScrutinizernomis: :-S18:53
nomisBCMM: not sure yet. Trying to figure out how to generate a good data set to base a prediction on.18:53
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sivangDocScrutinizer51: do you thihnk it is feasible to use the FM transmitter/antenna to auto probe free fm band to use to transmit to  a car?18:54
nomismy first shot would be to subtract 133us on pulses longer than that. But I have not yet understood if this affects the pauses as well.18:54
DocScrutinizersivang: sure18:54
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DocScrutinizersivang: FMTX even has a dedicated rx for that18:55
DocScrutinizernomis: the question though is how much's the jitter18:56
sivangDocScrutinizer: do we have software for that?18:56
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sivangif not, i am very keen to help18:56
DocScrutinizernot afaik18:56
sivangbut I know nothing about hardware hacking18:56
sivangso I'd nee some help18:56
DocScrutinizerumm, I'm not sure the datasheet for FMTX is publicaly available18:57
sivangDocScrutinizer: FMTX is like the fm tx/rx chip ?18:57
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DocScrutinizerRX is a function of BT iirc18:57
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sivangDocScrutinizer: but if it is a stock chip, we just ask for it from the mfctr?18:57
DocScrutinizerTX is a dedicated chip, which has a dedicated RX for searching free freq only18:58
sivangDocScrutinizer: wow nice18:58
nomisDocScrutinizer: - have fun with gnuplot. It contains three samples per value each.18:58
sivangDocScrutinizer: BT RX is broadcast tower reception?18:58
DocScrutinizercheck wiki, if there's anything to know then SpeedEvil has summarized it in wiki18:58
sivangDocScrutinizer: in his page?18:58
DocScrutinizerin hardware category18:59
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: TX18:59
SpeedEvilyou get the full ds if you register free18:59
DocScrutinizeraah that's been it19:00
DocScrutinizerthough I seem to remember the ds was poor, had no proper register table?19:00
SpeedEvildon't recall19:00
DocScrutinizerand just a reference to some poc implementation19:01
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FauxFauxHow do you open or copy text from e-mails? :s19:02
MohammadAGyeah..., you can't do that19:03
MohammadAGunless you click reply, then use shift + arrow keys and CTRL + C19:03
sivangFauxFaux: copy them from the sqlite db :)19:03
* sivang runs away19:03
MohammadAGnaw fuck19:03
MohammadAGPreparing to replace mediaplayer 1.3-4+0m5 (using mediaplayer_0.0.1_armel.deb) ..19:03
MohammadAGI replaced the stock media player :/19:04
sivangSpeedEvil, DocScrutinizer : thank you people19:04
FauxFauxThat's pretty bad.19:04
DocScrutinizerthank SpeedEvil - he's the god of wiki hw info19:04
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: HAHA :-/19:06
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DocScrutinizerFauxFaux: modest is ... modest aka crap :-P19:07
LeakyPughi guys..19:07
DocScrutinizerprobably you couldn't find a better name for it19:07
LeakyPugi there anyway in can save space on my rootfs?19:08
DocScrutinizeryeah, don't install poorly maintained aps from maemo-devel19:08
BCMMalso, rm -r is your friend19:09
BCMMwell, no it isn't19:09
DocScrutinizerwell, rm -ri maybe19:09
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jacktheripperrm -rf19:09
* FauxFaux goes back to alpine. -_-19:09
jacktheripper /19:09
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DocScrutinizerLeakyPug: be careful with whatever rm. You should know what you're doing19:10
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sivangSpeedEvil: is it okay to ask you hardware related questions if I find any while working through the docs? how's that yard going? :)19:10
LeakyPugya okay Doc.and I have installed some 20 small apps and i find my device temporarily bricking.19:10
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MohammadAGbrick = permanent19:11
DocScrutinizersivang: always welcome19:11
MohammadAGjust a tech grammar nazi19:11
LeakyPugokay :D19:11
LeakyPugsorry for my inevitable error ;)19:11
MohammadAGYou are forgiven19:11
LeakyPugbut why is it?19:12
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MohammadAGNowPlayingWindow: Orientation changed: Portrait.19:12
LeakyPugi find just a black screen for some few mins..19:12
DocScrutinizerwhy is what?19:12
MohammadAGSegmentation fault19:12
* MohammadAG curses19:12
sivangDocScrutinizer: :)19:13
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MohammadAGhad it set to something that didn't exist19:13
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SpeedEvilsivang: yes.19:13
* MohammadAG needs a microUSB cable19:13
MohammadAGforgot where mine is, and I only have the N8's one19:14
MohammadAGalterego, any idea why some layouts get a widget, others don't?19:14
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: you bricked it again? :-P19:14
alteregoMohammadAG: not sure what you mean :P19:14
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* SpeedEvil wonders how to flash through the battery contacts.19:15
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: wut?19:15
MohammadAGalterego, when using Qt creator, some layouts are ui->verticalLayout and  ui->verticalLayoutWidget19:16
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MohammadAGothers are only ui->verticalLayout19:16
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: ooh the TPs?19:16
SpeedEvilthe test points, yes19:17
SpeedEvilnot the actual battery contacts.19:17
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: sorry, please help me out - the layout has two separate sub-layouts for portrait and landscape?19:17
MohammadAGyes, if I want to include some customizations19:18
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alteregoMohammadAG: dunno about that, never use designer.19:18
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: JTAG. Or there are twins of USB19:18
DocScrutinizeror via TTY19:18
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DocScrutinizerI'd guess nokia managed to have some FBus or MBus compatible thing there as well, just for sanity of their care center tech staff19:19
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: and how many of the stock apps actually support (aka contain) portrait optimized layouts?19:22
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, none?19:23
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, aren't we aiming to change this?19:23
DocScrutinizerhow ould you change this for the blobs?19:23
DocScrutinizerwhile I think about it... Not even dialer-ui?19:24
DocScrutinizernm, a moot question19:24
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, aren't we like... rewriting the mediaplayer?19:24
DocScrutinizeryou are I guess :-D19:24
chem|stMohammadAG: yeah append to playlist19:25
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, there screenshots weren't mere photoshops :P
DocScrutinizerinsert to playlist, remove from playlist, cut & paste19:25
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: gathered as much19:25
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: otherwise I'd never have started bitching about tracker dependency19:26
DocScrutinizerand suggested to base on a filesystem centric aproach, with later addon of tracker19:27
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MohammadAGright now, the code just finds mp3s and adds them to the list, no actual playback support19:29
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DocScrutinizeryeah, as long as it does this via filesystem access, I'm confident this app will have a bright future19:30
DocScrutinizereven when later on it adds in tracker based file lists19:31
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, this isn't final or anything:
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MohammadAGthat's with one layout FYI19:32
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MohammadAGI plan to move the buttons to the top, move the volume bar... actually, is one really needed? I mean, the HW buttons are easily accessible in portrait mode19:33
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nomisDocScrutinizer: interested in more raw data? I have captured about 10000 pulses now and 9000 gaps...19:34
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alteregoping DocScrutinizer19:47
alteregoThink I might be ready to releaes a "tech preview" of Columbus into extras tomorrow.19:50
alteregoActually, more likely to happen on Saturday as I'm out tomorrow.19:50
alteregoI've come up with a brainwave though as far as USB serial access is concerned.19:50
alteregoDocScrutinizer: do you think it'd be okay, if, someone enables USB serial tethering in my app (for NMEA streaming) then I disable pnatd (stop phonet-at) and send data, then on shutdown (start phonet-at).19:51
alteregoThis would mean I hijack the 3G serial connection, but no modified kernel module is required.19:51
alteregoI'm thinking that's what I'm going to do for this "tech-preview" until I come up with a nice polished new g_nokia driver.19:52
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pupnik"Developers celebrate Halloween and Christmas together because Oct(31) == Dec(25)"20:03
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lardmanpupnik: lol20:05
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pupniki'd never heard that one before lardman20:06
lardmanit's good :)20:07
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jase21Why am I not able to compile a c program using tcc in N900?20:13
jase21I get stdio.h not found and a couple of other errors20:14
jase21Did anyone tried it?20:14
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jase21lardman: yes tiny c compiler for maemo-extras-devel.20:15
jase21Is there gcc available?20:16
lcuki thought tcc was x86 specific?20:16
lardmangcc should be about hey lcuk ;)20:16
lcukheh, the description on tcc package page even says that20:17
* lardman heads to the pub for some good20:17
lcukTCC (for Tiny C Compiler) is a small and fast ANSI C compiler. It generates optimized x86 code, and can compile, assemble, and link several times faster than 'gcc -O0'.20:17
lcukhey lardman \o20:17
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lardman|awayc ya lcuk20:17
lcukjase21, sdk/tools repository has everything you ever wanted but didnt have enough space to fit happily20:17
lcukthings like build-essential etc ;)20:18
jase21luck: Means it compiles to x86 on N900?20:18
jase21lcuk: where is sdk/tools repo?20:18
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jase21So tcc on N900 is actually a waste. Then I'll purge it.20:20
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lcukjase21, the rabbit hole starts here:   how you proceed is upto you20:21
trxwhat code editors do you use on n900?20:21
trxi havent found any good :/20:22
jase21trx: vi20:22
* lcuk >>> gone20:22
trxill check that20:22
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jase21There is pygtkeditor too (especially for python.)20:22
trxi spent last few hours coding a new one20:23
trxwith highlighting20:23
trxand macros20:23
jase21trx: have seen vim in the repos?20:23
trxnope, im looking for it right now20:24
jase21trx: I think its in the devl repo. Btw vi comes in-buit to busybox.20:24
trxok, vi is terminal based20:25
trxdont like that :/20:25
jase21trx: hah. then get vim or pygtkeditor.20:25
MohammadAGor khteditor20:26
MohammadAGit's a lot faster20:26
trxill try them out, ty for suggestion20:27
jase21MohammadAG: okay will check that.20:27
MohammadAGsame coder FYI, but it uses PyQt instead20:27
jase21MohammadAG: oh Qt. Then its going to be a no.20:28
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jase21GTK is better. Don't you think so?20:28
MohammadAGnot on maemo really20:29
jase21Is there anything specific to Qt on maemo that makes it better than gtk+?20:29
MohammadAGYeah, faster UIs20:30
MohammadAGactually, smoother, the PyGTK Hildon PannableArea is really slow20:31
jase21oh. Let me ask you something. Should I use PyMaemo or PyQt?20:31
trxthats why mine doesnt use py or qt :)20:32
jase21I was generally of the impression that C is better than C++ and so is the libs written in them.20:32
MohammadAGnot sure, I dumped both due to Python being slow on a 600MHz device20:33
jase21Oh, so what do you prefer?20:33
lcuks/a 600Mhz/any/20:34
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MohammadAGlcuk, I don't notice it on a quad core i5 :P20:35
lcukyou might not, but those little cores are working hard to keep up!20:36
MohammadAGjase21, C++/Qt, still smoother than C/GTK but probably uses a fraction more memory20:36
jase21MohammadAG: okay.20:36
MohammadAGtesting Qt app (hostmode-gui v0.2) compliation on the N90020:36
MohammadAGcan't say it's going fast20:37
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jase21MohammadAG: Couldn't JIT Compiled python run faster. IMHO python give a pleasent experience for programming.20:39
MohammadAGC++ is fun20:39
jase21okay. You are C++ guy. :D20:39
jase21Did anyone install lighttpd on N900?20:40
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* jase21 purged tcc. 20:42
luke-jrjase21: NO20:43
luke-jrpython give a headache experience20:43
jase21luck-jr: what was your headache?20:43
trxyeah, these all suck (editors)20:43
luke-jrjase21: a pain in my head20:44
trxim gonna finish mine (which will prolly also suck :) )20:44
jase21luck-jr: what, not where. Hah.l20:44
luke-jrjase21: Python20:44
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jase21luck-jr: ok, don't recurse.20:45
luke-jrPerl, on the other hand, is relaxingly beautiful20:45
slonopotamuspython is for losers! real men code in C20:46
jase21luck-jr: oh no.. you better run.20:46
luke-jrC is easy to debug ☺20:46
jase21slonopotamus: well real men code in asm.20:46
luke-jronly fools code in asm20:46
luke-jrand low-level driver engineers20:46
jase21Not really.20:46
luke-jryes really20:46
luke-jrasm isn't portable20:47
slonopotamusjase21, you can't write portable code in asm20:47
slonopotamusluke-jr, heh20:47
jase21My target is OMAP3430.20:47
luke-jrI suppose that tiny-C-subset-that-maps-directly-to-asm would make sense20:47
trxanyways, Delphi is the win :)20:47
luke-jrjase21: one-time code is useless20:47
jase21okay, why don't you say lisp instaed?20:48
luke-jrjase21: because I don't mean lisp20:48
luke-jrCoreBoot project has a C subset that compiles directly to asm20:48
jase21luck-jr: ok, agreed (one one time code ..)20:48
luke-jrfor initializing memory controllers and stuff20:48
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luke-jrTiagoTiago: stfu, we're talking20:48
jase21you can call c functions from python.20:49
jase21so performance critical stuffs can go there.20:50
luke-jrI doubt that mitigates the headaches20:50
luke-jrprobably increases the un-debuggability20:50
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jase21oh debugging.20:50
jase21It can be managed.20:51
luke-jrmanage a segfault20:51
luke-jrand corrupt stack20:51
slonopotamusjase21, python is ~60 times slower than C and is dynamically typed. see, only disadvantages.20:52
jase21hmm.. well not really. Why does segfault occurs at the first place?20:52
TiagoTiagoi'm trying to setup a SIP account from, i already got the account on their server, but i'm having difculties figuring out what i'm doing wrong on my N900; is there a log somewhere for the chat between the N900 and the SIP server for  me to see where things are borking?20:52
slonopotamusjase21, same question, s/segfault/AttributeError/20:52
jase21slonopotamus: that's sort of trading between performance and ease of coding.20:53
luke-jrjase21: but Python isn't easier, it's harder20:53
slonopotamusjase21, ease of coding when you only get runtime checking? no way20:54
jase21Which part of python is harder? Is it becuse its dynamically typed?20:54
luke-jrjase21: dunno, it's just a pain20:54
MohammadAGno, it's because it bitches about indentations20:54
luke-jrMohammadAG: that mgiht have something to do about it20:54
luke-jrfighting against my workflow != easy20:54
jase21Hmm.. these aren't really a problem.20:54
MohammadAGso when I have a def inside a class, inside a class, it doesn't fit on my display20:55
luke-jrso when I add a try: block, I have to reindent everything20:55
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jase21luke-jr: that's why we have better editors and IDEs.20:56
jase21It will do the work for us.20:56
jase21Okay whatever, you guys just stick with C and C++.20:57
* jase21 is going offline. Have to sleep.20:57
luke-jrjase21: s/have/need20:57
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luke-jrjase21: and it STILL screws up diff/git/svn20:57
jase21for the time being.20:58
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Choomjrocha: vim seems good enough for me21:09
ChoomVjjjjjjjj> -- block of code indented21:10
jrochaChoom, alright, and why are you telling me that'21:10
Choombecause I'm sleepy21:10
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Choomand meant luke-jr ;)21:10
jrochaChoom, no problem21:10
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TiagoTiagohm, interesting, for some reason the SIP plugin was choosing the conection from Hamachi instead of the WiFi connection21:14
GAN900Tee hee21:15
TiagoTiagois that for real?21:17
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RST38hAnother satisfied nokia customer!21:22
luke-jrChoom: that makes it work with diff/git/svn?21:22
RST38hWait, more,many more satisfied nokia customers in this thread!21:23
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* MohammadAG connects laptop to HDTV to see all of Qt Designer's window21:29
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timeless_xchatanyone here use office communicator on their n900?21:32
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pupnikdanramos is a dedicated troll21:49
RST38hwho isn't nowadays?21:49
Choomluke-jr: if you're using vim you can configure it to homogenize whitespace and use custom indentation21:50
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GAN900He's particularly irrational in his approach, though.21:51
MohammadAGRST38h, infobot21:52
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luke-jrChoom: wtf does that mean?21:58
Choomit means you can set up vim to replace tabs with white space as well as configure the way you indent your own code so that it doesn't cause diff-related issues22:02
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trxIf anyone cares to check it out, here is my editor, still working on it, and have lots of more stuff to add.. so far basic editor options, plus, code highlighting, code folding, ability to open multiple files in the same time :
trxits compiled for arm22:25
trxso test it on your device22:25
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lcukput it on extras-devel with source etc22:29
lcukthen we can use it to edit its own code22:29
lcuk:) and your editor has a purpose22:29
lcukdid you also build it on the device itself?22:30
trxno, im using lazarus on my pc to compile22:31
trxi will put it in extras22:32
trxas soon as i add some more stuff22:32
trxand figure out how to put it in repo :P22:32
trxhave you checked it out?22:32
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lcukwont run random binaries from the net22:33
lcukand considering its a source code editor22:33
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lcukit makes sense to offer some source to edit22:33
lcukwhat is lazarus?22:34
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trxits an IDE for freepascal22:34
lcukthat generates arm binaries?22:34
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trxit can generate binaries for anything22:35
lcukwhat about dependency resolution ?22:35
trx(well, allmost :) )22:35
* MohammadAG makes lcuk a binary to rm -rf /22:35
lcukoooh nice MohammadAG22:35
MohammadAGlcuk, here's a binary that gives you unlimited bacon *waits*22:35
lardman|homeieatlint: I've just heard that pdf417 isn't working in ZBar yet, so you might need to look at one of the dedicated pdf417 decoders that exist22:35
lcukbefore I run it will you just test it on yourside :P22:35
MohammadAGyeah sure22:35
* MohammadAG unmounts /22:35
trxlcuk dependency resolution?22:36
MohammadAGlcuk, working fine22:36
lcuktrx, normally theres dependencies22:36
lcukfor libraries you are using22:36
lcukMohammadAG, cool22:36
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MohammadAGactually, no, missing libs22:36
* MohammadAG makes a chroot and runs it there22:36
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MohammadAGlcuk, it's closed source, will you run it?22:36
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lcuknot from you22:36
trxi use some libs from the sdk22:37
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lcukPROCEDURE whoa():22:37
trxand SynEdit engine for "text editor"22:37
trxanyways, they are all open source22:38
* lcuk nods22:38
lcukbigger question, can you actually make it do compilation on device22:39
trxprolly just using fpc22:39
trxbut ive never done that..22:40
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lcuktrx, pygtkeditor (and its followup) were self created on the device to help khertan write his python apps on the go22:41
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RST38h"A Baltimore construction worker was charged Wednesday with plotting to blow up a military recruiting station in Maryland after the FBI learned of his radical leanings on Facebook, joined his plot and supplied him with a fake car bomb that he tried to detonate"22:42
trxthats cool22:42
RST38hFun on Facebook!22:42
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trxim not all that familliar with linux and lazarus/fpc22:43
trxso i cant yet do that22:43
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trxi work in Delphi22:43
trxon win22:43
lcukRST38h, o_O22:43
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pupnikRST38h: maybe the fbi should make an online http://bombemporium.com22:49
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pupnikomap36xx looks to have wonderful batter life22:52
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SpeedEvilI don't see the fundamental problems with the current one.22:55
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SpeedEvilIt's more software issues.22:55
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* NooBmonk3y blinks22:56
trumeeDamn. My ISP has switched off its 2g signal. No other choice apart from 3g22:57
trumeeThree UK has started sucking now.22:57
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trumeeNooBmonk3y,  Spoke to their customer service. they said 2g has been switched off :(22:58
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* NooBmonk3y is confused22:58
NooBmonk3ywho what where when why22:58
trumeecant believe it since 3g is crappy indoors.22:58
trumeethey say i am in a good 3g signal area which is definitely not the case22:59
NooBmonk3yso they turned off 2g?22:59
trumeeyes!l!!!! pigs23:00
trumeefunny thing is that their coverage checker also says poor 3g signal indoors.23:01
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trumeei have complained but dont have high hopes.23:02
GAN900SpeedEvil, I'll take a process shrink, though.23:03
SpeedEvilGAN900: sure23:03
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NooBmonk3yrandom for a company to turn of 2g?!23:06
GAN900SpeedEvil, I do agree, though.23:07
GAN900Software is the bigger issue23:07
SpeedEvilNooBmonk3y: Not really - from memory 3 gets their 2G by buying capacity off someone else.23:08
SpeedEvilThis means that they have to pay extra23:08
NooBmonk3ytrue SpeedEvil23:08
NooBmonk3ybut still odd to just turn it off23:08
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NooBmonk3yi'd understand swapping to use another supplier23:08
NooBmonk3y2g is still defacto tbh23:09
NooBmonk3yif there was only 3g near me i'd be buggered for 30 miles lol23:09
SpeedEvilNooBmonk3y: you're in the UK>23:09
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lcuki thought gravity was pretty much fixed at 1g23:09
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NooBmonk3ylcuk, you sure?23:09
SpeedEvilIf you do not make vmany voice calls, i suggest t-mobile PAYG23:09
lcukaround these parts23:09
NooBmonk3ylcuk, i hear in australia, you fall upwards23:09
SpeedEvilWith 6-mo internet boosters @ 1G/mo23:10
SpeedEvilIf that works for you23:10
NooBmonk3ynot bad, but i'm on contract as i can never afford the phone price up front23:10
SpeedEvil3 quid/mo internet = win23:10
NooBmonk3ywill be starting to look at my next device in jan feb , woooop :)23:11
lcukSpeedEvil, does that also have SMS allowance?23:11
SpeedEvillcuk: no23:11
SpeedEvillucent: 10p/each IIRC23:11
SpeedEvillcuk: Well - I think if you top it up every month, then yes.23:11
SpeedEvilBut I don't23:11
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lcuki top up £15 a month PAYG with O223:11
lcukfor calls23:12
lcukand with that I have SMS and data bolton23:12
SpeedEvilI have made maybe 2 quids of calls in a year and a bit23:12
NooBmonk3ylol SpeedEvil me too, use about 20 mins a month outta my 600 free lol23:12
NooBmonk3yand probably 30 texts tops23:12
NooBmonk3ybut could easily use 3+g of data :|23:12
MohammadAGalterego, what's the radio-button like thingy you added in Columbus's QMenuBar?23:13
NooBmonk3yso i'm v carefull with my vodafone one lol23:13
* NooBmonk3y is a little lucky, as my lovely vodafone account manager at work, has managed to boost my 500mb limit ;) hehehe23:13
* lcuk calls from home mostly but keeps mob for other uses23:13
SpeedEvilNooBmonk3y: yeah - t-mobile PAYG is very good value for those that don't call or text much, but want 1G/mo internet23:14
* MohammadAG never uses home phone23:14
MohammadAGI hate monochrome orange-lit displays23:14
lcukyour home phone has a display *grin*23:14
* lcuk still recalls rotary dial23:15
alteregoMohammadAG: It's an action group23:15
* NooBmonk3y grins23:15
alteregoSomeone do a rotary dialoer application :D23:15
alteregoApple fags would love that! :D23:15
MohammadAGalterego, so it's not maemo-specific?23:15
alteregoMohammadAG: it's not maemo specific no.23:15
MohammadAGalterego, should be easy with Qt23:15
alteregoBut it is maemo specific how its' rendered.23:15
alteregoVery, hang on I'll pastie the code.23:16
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trumeelcuk, £15/mo. unlimited sms, 1GB internet, 300 minutes. 1month contract23:16
trumeecant get a better deal than this.23:16
lcuko2 offered me home broadband too recently23:17
trumeei am quite happy with Virgin Media, dislike adsl23:17
lcukwhich was fun but incompatible and slower than cable23:17
trumeelcuk ++23:18
alteregoIt's the top bit.23:18
alteregoIgnore my loop, just expand that to one cycle per item you want there.23:18
alteregoThere's a maximum of four.23:18
MohammadAGalterego, thanks :)23:19
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alteregoMohammadAG: you realise if you keep asking for examples you could gain the entire source of columbus ;)23:20
lcukalterego, it would just be simpler on a git repo23:21
MohammadAGalterego, I'm already putting the pieces together :P23:21
MohammadAGlcuk, it's not FOSS23:21
alteregoIt will be, I've finally decided ;)23:22
alteregoJust making bluetooth streaming a bit more user friendly, then I'll upload it to extras23:22
alterego(basically a device selector instead of having to enter the bluetooth device address specifically for client connections)23:22
alteregoOh, and automatic bluetooth enabling when required.23:23
alteregoWell, prompting to enable :D23:23
MohammadAGyay \o/23:25
MohammadAGalterego, just force enabling, it won't bring down planes, I promise23:26
MohammadAGenable it*23:26
* MohammadAG wonders what CONFIG_DEFAULT_DISPLAY_VIEW is in alterego's code23:26
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alteregoOh, that's just a number.23:28
alteregoI made columbus, a while ago, remember what view you were last using, so when you restarted it, it'd auto switch to that view.23:28
alteregoThat's basically me disabling it.23:28
alteregoI found it annoying :D23:29
GAN900So, my buddy's been shopping for a new car.23:29
MohammadAGlol alterego23:30
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alteregoCrap, I can't even be bothered to add device lists.23:34
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alteregoI might just release it now and work more on it some other time.23:34
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alteregoYeah, balls to it, I'll just sanitize the source and package it tomorrow.23:36
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GAN900Toyota dealership had a mint 07 Sienna with 18k on it.23:40
GAN900Some minister came in and "bought" it.23:40
GAN900But intentionally screwed up the financing23:40
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GAN900so he's been driving around in it for a week and the dealership been asking for it back.23:41
GAN900They didn't want to give it back, so they totalled it instead.23:41
pupnik   vmware shows Nokia N800 running Android and Windows CE - simultaneously.23:42
alteregoGAN900: hah, that's hilarious23:43
lcukGAN900, why would someone in a high profile role intentionally screw up financing23:43
RST38hGAN900: A true believer, indeed23:43
lcukie, do not attribute to malice23:43
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nid0pupnik: odd that she keeps describing it as a phone throughout the demo though, and they talk about calls coming in23:46
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pupnik3d eye tracking UI for mobile phones
pupniknid0: any luck with that package?23:48
MohammadAGpupnik, seen that on the N900, somewhere23:49
nid0pupnik: yeah, checked with my sis in law, it did finally get put in the post as a parcel at the weekend, and with a return address on it in case it doesnt reach you23:49
nid0also, the sauce is well nice23:49
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pupnikawesome :)23:52
pupnikMohammadAG: imagine running maemo/meego/nitdroid on one device23:52
alteregoI've been meaning to do that for ages ..23:52
alterego(head tracking that is)23:52
MohammadAGpupnik, why imagine?23:52
luke-jrpupnik: Maemo is dead.23:53
MohammadAGyou can get easy meego if you feel like spending an hour or so making scripts23:53
pupniki'd buy vmware for n90023:53
luke-jrpupnik: VMWare is slow23:53
MohammadAGluke-jr, far from dead*23:53
luke-jrpupnik: if Maemo and Android worked with Linux, you could just use OpenVZ23:53
pupnikwell, i'd want 512MB ram23:53
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luke-jrMohammadAG: far beyond dead*23:54
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jacekowskito run android on n900 all you have to do is port dalvik to glibc23:57
jacekowskiand then to X23:57
jacekowskidon't bother about underlying crap23:57
luke-jryou're just talking about Android apps23:58

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