IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2010-12-07

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MohammadAGwho's used HildonPannableArea before?00:15
timeless_mbpsp3000: what would cause '[windows explorer] unzip' to fail to run to completion? :(00:15
MohammadAG is stuck to the first one, what's the signal emitted by the list when a list item is clicked?00:16
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* MohammadAG sighs at
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* timeless_mbp curses00:28
timeless_mbpsomething is *eating* my directories00:29
PhonicUKom nom nom00:29
marmoutetimeless_mbp: you forget to lunch again !00:29
timeless_mbpmarmoute: i haven't lit candles, which i should do nowish00:29
timeless_mbpbut yeah, today was a holiday so i skipped the lunch thing00:30
timeless_mbpfinnish independence day00:30
* timeless_mbp frowns00:30
timeless_mbpok, so what the heck would be able to eat my directories?00:30
marmouteHungry moos00:30
alteregoAnyone here have an XBox 360?00:32
MohammadAGyeah, 100km away from me though :P00:32
MohammadAGI doubt the ir port will respond00:32
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alteregoI'm releasing this into extras tomorrow, it's a standalone XBox 360 media remote:
MohammadAGlicense of the Xbox logo is? :P00:33
alteregoDoesn't matter, that logo was taken from someone else, who drew it themselves who said it can be used for anything :P00:34
SpeedEvilThat's not really true.00:35
alteregoThis one is with OpenGL rendering:
alteregoThe gradient is better but the lines aren't well antialiased.00:36
SpeedEvilIf you draw a large yellow M, and use it as a logo for your fast food resturant - you will rapidly discover things about visual copyright00:36
* MohammadAG thinks he picked up trolling00:36
alteregoSpeedEvil: that would depend on the M00:36
MohammadAGcan't you only use OpenGL rendering for the logo? :P00:36
alteregoActually, OpenGL just renders the gradients better.00:37
alteregoBecause it seems to allow for a higher colour range.00:37
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trumeeRobot101: ping00:46
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MohammadAGalterego, do you know if Qt can do window overlays on Maemo?00:51
* DocScrutinizer throws 20 books dealing with McD at MohammadAG00:56
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DocScrutinizerdid you know the M is designed to address our mammal instincts?00:58
alteregoMohammadAG: how do you mean?00:58
DocScrutinizerat least some egghead claims that00:58
MohammadAGalterego, like a toolbar, thinking of doing something 5800-esque00:58
alteregoOverlays over GL contexts or framebuffer images?00:59
alteregoGot an example screen shot?00:59
alteregoNot sure what you mean. ;)00:59
alteregoBut I'm sure whatever it is it's possible, if anything can do it Qt Gui can :D00:59
MohammadAGQWidget::setWindowFlags(Qt::ToolTip | Qt::WindowStaysOnTopHint); might do it01:01
MohammadAGsure, sec01:01
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* DocScrutinizer wonders idly.. For Qt we got this super duper KDE, and... what else? Any cross platform killer app based on Qt?01:03
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crashanddie_DocScrutinizer: autodesk, google earth, photoshop album (adobe), skype, vlc...01:04
DocScrutinizer...just out of curiosity. Not saying Qtmobile will never bring benefit to anything but meego01:04
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DocScrutinizergogle earth?? o.O01:05
BCMMcrashanddie_: does windows skype use qt?01:05
crashanddie_no idea01:05
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BCMMDocScrutinizer: yeah, if it looks horribly non-native that's because it ships with it's own ugly copy01:05
BCMMbut it is possible to fix that and have it use your system's qt libs, and theming01:05
alteregoDocScrutinizer: And Symbian, but I think it's transitional, a lot will probably get put directly into Qt 4.801:06
DocScrutinizerI was simply wondering if I ever seen any Qt widget outside of KDE01:07
* timeless_mbp gets sdl to build01:07
alteregoMohammadAG: you should be able to do that, but where would it go?01:07
DocScrutinizer(and maemo/meego of course :-P)01:07
alteregoWhat displays?01:07
timeless_mbpvirtualbox's main ui is qt based01:07
alteregoDocScrutinizer: well, quite a few companies use it too.01:08
timeless_mbpnokia ovisuite is qt based01:08
MohammadAGalterego, the 5800 has a button, the N900 has a proximity sensor01:08
crashanddie_we use Python/Qt for our internal fat clients01:08
DocScrutinizerooh, a windows app01:08
alteregoMohammadAG: Oh, like a quick launcher bar?01:08
crashanddie_usually as proof of concept, or ready-made tool for a few people01:08
timeless_mbpDocScrutinizer: hypothetically it could be an os x app01:08
crashanddie_when the PoC has been accepted, we go for C++/Qt or C++/Win3201:09
MohammadAGalterego, yep, look at the icons in the pic01:09
timeless_mbp(the fact that it's Qt based can be seen by looking at the library list)01:09
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timeless_mbp(i.e. not a secret)01:09
DocScrutinizeryeah, but i've never heard of nokia ovisuite for OSx01:09
BCMM for an example of google earth looking a bit less like Windows 200001:09
MohammadAGcustomizable quick launch might be a better idea01:09
timeless_mbpDocScrutinizer: there isn't one shipping today afaik01:09
alteregoMohammadAG: yeah, that's quite cool.01:10
timeless_mbphowever, shipping one would be a good thing from some perspective01:10
DocScrutinizertbh I never heard of any Nokia ovisuite01:10
alteregoDocScrutinizer: new name for pc suite01:10
timeless_mbpDocScrutinizer: count yourself lucky01:10
* DocScrutinizer sitting here, waiting for coffee to kick in and meanwhile messing up ovisuite and pcsuite01:10
alteregoThat is an awful link01:10
MohammadAGffs my laptop is too fast01:11
timeless_mbpalterego: thanks01:11
* timeless_mbp blames googl01:11
alteregotimeless_mbp: never heard of tinyurl? :P01:11
timeless_mbpalterego: i naively assume all urls are tiny :)01:11
* DocScrutinizer hands daily WTF medal to timeless_mbp01:11
timeless_mbpsafari doesn't show me urls01:11
alteregoMohammadAG: gonna import that 360 media remote tomorrow.01:12
alteregointo -devel01:12
* DocScrutinizer tries to c&p merge the above link01:12
BCMMSafari doesn't show me web pages.01:12
MohammadAGalterego, I think google does that to count references or something similar01:13
alteregoAnyhow, bedtime now.01:13
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alteregog'night folks01:13
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MohammadAGnight alterego :)01:13
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DocScrutinizertimeless_mbp: how many #ifdef <platform>; statements are in that source? If you happen to know...01:15
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timeless_mbpDocScrutinizer: never seen or found the source01:15
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timeless_mbpand yes, i was looking01:15
timeless_mbpbut not for mac01:16
DocScrutinizeralterego: o/01:16
timeless_mbpi was looking because it hung on windows01:16
timeless_mbpi'm still working on tracking down the hang01:17
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: how far you got with building an alternative pk, "THE *good* pk"?01:19
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Munkiiican somebody help me, firstly by telling me where internet radio files are stored?01:29
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Munkiiinobody knows?01:32
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DocScrutinizerwhat is a "internet radio file"?01:41
ShadowJKI think he wants to know where internet radio bookmarks are stored01:41
DocScrutinizerhm, me too01:42
DocScrutinizerI even suppose that's related to mediaplayer01:42
alteregoNot sure how I can handle lircd.conf in a nice way.01:42
* alterego wonders what qtirreco/irreco does01:43
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MohammadAGstab it, then go to bed01:43
DocScrutinizeralterego: talk gentle and polite to it01:43
alteregoA lircd.conf.d would be nice01:43
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DocScrutinizeralterego: a mce-ini.d would also be nice01:44
javispedrothat would be uber-easy, just needs agreement from all m.o application uploaders01:44
alteregojavispedro: indeed.01:44
alteregoAnd how would we go about this? ;)01:44
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javispedroSpam the -devel mailing list, tmo, and this channel.01:45
alteregoI could upload a new lirc package with .d support01:45
alteregoAnd then tell everyone about it, yeah :)01:45
javispedrothere are a few candidates that might be more interesting though01:45
alteregoHow do you mean?01:45
alteregoWhat I'd prefer is a lircd replacement. Something that allows you to upload your own configuration when you startup and forgets it when you disconnect.01:46
javispedroI cannot recall any such file atm but I'm sure some packager here will be able to: any config file owned by a base image package that you change at the posinst?01:46
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DocScrutinizeralterego: what's wring with >>include "/home/user/MyDocs/irreco/InternalLircDevices/50PG6000"<< in /etc/lircd.conf - except it gets a new line for every foobar01:47
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DocScrutinizer(a bug in irreco)01:47
alteregoDocScrutinizer: I wonder if that works with wildcards ;)01:47
DocScrutinizerno idea really. Check lirc source01:48
alteregoOkay, so that's how irreco does it, uses include, cool.01:48
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alteregoI think I'd still like to write a lirc replacement, for just sending, a lightweight framework of some kind.01:49
javispedrois one such file01:49
javispedrothat really needs people agreeing to use a .d dir01:49
javispedrobecause Nokia is not going to fix it..01:49
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DocScrutinizeralterego: still on your crusade to replace existing packets because of "Meh, NIH. And cba to read if the old package supports what I need"?01:50
DocScrutinizeralterego: well, you're in good company. That's how PA was born01:51
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Robot101trumee: pong01:52
alteregolirc is kind of ugly01:52
alteregoIt does mostly what I need, but what if someone steps on my toes, and I don't want to have to walk around others' feet either.01:53
DocScrutinizerlinux is kind of ugly. I'm looking forward for your alternative you'll come up with undoubtedly, in a few weeks01:53
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alteregoWhat's ugly about Linux?01:53
javispedroit's monolithic for a start01:54
DocScrutinizererr, lirc. No? For example01:54
DocScrutinizerSysV init01:54
DocScrutinizererr upstart01:54
DocScrutinizerkernel modules01:54
DocScrutinizerI bet you can come up with a beautiful alternative to all that, in no time01:55
* javispedro goes check how's the Linux Unified Kernel going01:55
DocScrutinizermaybe call it aldroid then01:55
javispedrolol deletionpedia01:57
alteregoNot really, be practical ..01:57
javispedroan article gets nomination to be deleted. eventually it is all discovered to be a fraud (the nomineer was a sockpuppet account for a _banned_ user)01:57
javispedroyet the result of the votation = delete01:57
javispedroso the article gets deleted.01:57
alteregoI don't mind writing something smaller, but cleaner towards my requirements when the currently available infrastructure is likely to cause failures for all users'01:58
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alteregoI want to distribute a single remote as an app.01:58
javispedrothere's an app like that already01:59
DocScrutinizersorry, I question your competence to decide on the "for all users" part here01:59
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alteregoDocScrutinizer: question what you want.01:59
javispedroiirc it was about some still camera remote01:59
alteregoIt's my decision.01:59
alteregoAnd I don't give a toss if you don't agree with me.01:59
DocScrutinizerdo whatever you like. It's your karma01:59
alteregoBut I don't think you're thinking clearly if you think that multiple apps playing around with the same system config file wont screw something up eventually.02:00
javispedrofor example what happened on maemo is the app "owning" the config file getting updated in a PR release and overwriting the "shared" config file02:01
DocScrutinizeruhuh. So your alternative was what exactly? discarding that file so nobody else can play with it?02:01
alteregoNo, my alternative was to not use lirc or that file so I don't have to second guess what others' do or don't do with it.02:02
alteregoWould you rather I spent my time promoting the use of a .d approach? Is that why you're being bitchy? :P02:03
alteregoIt would take more time and effort for me to do that.02:05
alteregoAnd I don't see what's wrong with my approach. Except you're opinion, obviously.02:05
DocScrutinizeroh yeah. The best solutions always were born from the notion to avoid all dispensible pondering02:06
alteregoSo, what is your issue with my approach?02:07
* javispedro watches MohammadAG being an optimist on tmo02:07
DocScrutinizerof course your solution has not portability problems - you can port it to whatever system/platform you like. It also has no compatibility issues - it simply creates a new world where there are no incompatible things allowed02:08
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Munkiiiforgot about this window, it was quiet before.02:09
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Munkiiiyes, i meant internet radio bookmark files02:10
DocScrutinizerit's a shiny new world. Hope you like it, and maybe you find somebody to share it with - not me though, I like to keep what I got. And I like to keep my freedom02:10
alteregoOkay, how about I submit a patch to lirc making irsend capable of sending arbitrary commands, without a config file.02:10
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DocScrutinizergood idea02:10
DocScrutinizerno sarcasm this time02:10
Munkiiibecause; i wanted to use Alarmed to turn on my radio in the morning.02:10
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* MohammadAG smiles at javispedro 02:10
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alteregoI'm sorry, I just get into a lazy mindset sometimes.02:11
Munkiiianybody know how i would do this?02:11
alteregoMohammadAG: what thread are you loving up now?02:11
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MohammadAGalterego, I think :P02:12
javispedrowouldn't it be wonderful to wake up some day and find the entire source code of all maemo user applications on a nice tarball at your feet?02:12
DocScrutinizeralterego: for this patch you get all the support I'm able to offer02:12
javispedrounfortunately, the entire quim's post reads like a 72pt NO to me.02:12
BCMMjavispedro: that might be kinda terrifying.02:13
MohammadAGI swear it looked bigger than 72pt02:13
javispedronevertheless, no surprises here.02:13
alteregoDocScrutinizer: it brings another problem though, I still need a strategy for my app :P02:13
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alteregoWhich I wanted to upload to extras tomorrow.02:14
MohammadAGjavispedro, I'm surprised Nokia's keeping crappy components closed, and opening up hildon-desktop02:14
MohammadAGor actually, all of hildon02:14
javispedromakes sense02:14
MohammadAGhildon > mediaplayer02:15
MohammadAGI'm sure it took longer to code02:15
alteregohildon was always supposed to be open02:15
javispedroit has costed me more than a year but I think i'm finally starting to understand what's this all about...02:15
javispedrobut wouldn't be able to explain it =)02:15
MohammadAGwasn't osso* supposed to be open too?02:15
alteregoNope, never02:16
BCMMwhat's the big deal with mediaplayer? isn't it easily replaced by porting an existing, nicer media player?02:16
alteregoosso was just a group name :P02:16
MohammadAGBCMM, name one02:16
javispedroBCMM: how to say.. there's a reason I do not use kde or gnome as my daily OS.02:16
javispedro(on the N900, that is)02:16
BCMMhmm, fair enough02:16
javispedroin fact02:16
MohammadAGrythmbox is cool, though I doubt it can run on the N90002:17
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: (explain) start a mind-dump02:17
MohammadAGvisualizations in it crash on an old desktop02:17
DocScrutinizermaybe we get it02:17
javispedrothere must be a reason I'm here and not #openmoko =)02:17
alteregoIt's been said that replacing the media player and making it functionally identical and at least asthetically similar would be easy.02:17
javispedronow repeat for the rest of the applications.02:17
MohammadAGalterego, with tracker support? :P02:17
alteregoBut what is the point if our base platform is going to stagnate and not ever get updated?02:17
trumeeDocScrutinizer, good news for sip users. MWI arrived in telepathy-sip.02:18
javispedroand don't understimate them; meego handset would me like a 200% more usable if it had, dunno, a proper notetaking app.02:18
javispedroor a working sms app ;)02:18
MohammadAGor a working *02:18
alteregoI just don't see much point in replacing core maemo apps without us being able to maintain the core platform, which is why I'm doing meego :P02:19
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javispedrowhat is the core platform02:20
MohammadAGwhat core platform?02:20
MohammadAGhildon is open02:20
MohammadAGfeel free to write an mce alternative02:20
MohammadAGkernel is open02:20
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javispedroIn fact I'd kill the distro.02:20
DocScrutinizeresp what closed source core platform?02:20
MohammadAGjrbme is on track02:20
alteregoMeeGo terminology I guess, kernel and base system02:20
MohammadAGkernel is 100% open02:20
DocScrutinizermce is a PITA, admittedly02:20
javispedroand as for the interesting core stuff that isn't open, it isn't open on Meego either.02:21
javispedronot for the N900 port currently, that is.02:21
DocScrutinizermce is THE ugly wart in maemo now02:21
MohammadAGand the phone UI02:21
javispedromce just does something that on the 770 nit times no oss application did02:21
alteregoSo, are you saying we could build an up-to-date image for the N900 with full h/w support? I don't think so.02:21
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MohammadAGwould it be hard to make flip to silent configurable?02:21
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: phone-ui can be replaced, I guess02:21
DocScrutinizermce is really hard to RE02:21
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MohammadAGit shouldn't take more than 30 minutes, and that's including a coffee break02:22
alteregojavispedro: I understand that, but at least they have newer versions being built for them when ever they need it :P02:22
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: also I'm talking bout system02:22
DocScrutinizernot userland02:22
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MohammadAGyeah, got that02:22
javispedroalterego: same trap02:22
MohammadAGkernel, port 2.6.35, I doubt it's hard to get working on Maemo 502:22
MohammadAGit's just that I hate MeeGo's way of distributing kernel patches02:22
MohammadAGnot really understandable without some headache02:23
alteregoMohammadAG: a lot has changed between 28 and 35 ..02:23
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MohammadAGalterego, I know, mce and bme will probably die first02:23
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MohammadAGwe can get the MeeGo bme, it works properly I guess02:23
alteregoWe'd need updated busybox, udev, and a whole other bunch of junk02:23
MohammadAGmce, well, there has to be alternative for that02:23
MohammadAGerr, isn't that userspace?02:24
DocScrutinizermeh, we don't need bme02:24
javispedrohey, .28 and .36 are different, but I'd say _some_ binary applications would run ;)02:24
alteregoyes, some02:24
javispedroDocScrutinizer: it doesn't matter.02:24
alteregoThere was a bit of sysfs moving inbetween those two versions thugh02:25
javispedroany attempt to forward port half of maemo results in disaster02:25
javispedrolots of past examples02:25
DocScrutinizeryeah, alwqays this sysfs moving. I still wait for getting a hold to the kernel devels that do that02:25
alteregoSo any apps with hardcoded links to sysfs entries or anything like that may fail.02:25
alteregoSo, basically, we can't just boot up on a new kernel and module set.02:26
DocScrutinizerthat's what we've seen on every distro, for every major kernel version update02:26
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alteregoThe rootfs would need refreshing too.02:26
javispedro(in fact I'd say I've find the kernel behaviour quite ultra conservative on this regard)02:26
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DocScrutinizerhmm, I'm particularly talking about OE here02:27
alteregoexactly, so, igo meego :P02:27
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alteregoI develop apps for me, :)02:28
alteregoSo, back to my problem. How can I distribute my app to play nice in lirc land whilst we wait for a ne lirc version with arb command support?02:29
javispedroDocScrutinizer: O.o02:29
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javispedrofrom reading that though, there was a clear reason for the madness02:31
alteregoDocScrutinizer: hah, that's also mean a lot of edits for all the sysfs path changes too ;)02:31
javispedroyou (or board kernel dev) changed the device tree02:31
DocScrutinizerI dunno whom to bash - the original authors for choosing a wrong path, ot the patch authors for breaking the paths without proper rationale02:32
javispedroand whoever rewrote the sysfs paths on that wiki was smart enough to reference them by class instead of device tree path02:32
alteregoI wonder how different meego sysfs is to maemos' I'll have to check that tomorrow.02:32
alteregoUrgh, who uses device path ...02:33
javispedrosomeone who believed the platform devices would always hang from the platform driver02:33
javispedro(imho correctly. osx/xnu here has multiple trees depending on which PoV: logical, power, etc. which would have helped here)02:34
MohammadAGsort of a noobish question but02:34
MohammadAGwhy does sysfs have a lot of infinite loop?02:34
MohammadAGloops even02:34
alteregoMohammadAG: that's just how it is :P02:35
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alteregoIt's so devices can reference the bus they're on which also references the devices, which reference the bus .....02:35
DocScrutinizerfor the best of my understanding, sysfs was never meant to be accessed directly by userland though02:35
javispedroit was -- the issue is the typical oss one02:36
alteregosysfs is basically a file system that allows you to view kernel data structures in a logical UNIX like way.02:36
javispedroyou see, a developer makes an interface for his device, and exports it on sysfs. he adds "i'm still thinking on this, give me some time to finish it", thinking one month or two.02:37
alteregoSo you get back references like you do in the structs that define the data you're looking at in the kernel.02:37
DocScrutinizerI've seen quite some drivers that implement proper /dev/* entries for /sys/*02:37
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javispedrothen some distro which can't wait to offer XXXX compatibility starts using the interface02:37
javispedroand a new crapsack is born02:38
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DocScrutinizerprobably for userland the correct approach to access sysfs would be to consider path a tuple of properties, and do a find /sysfs -name "*display*" -a -name "*LCD*" -a -name "*brightness"02:42
javispedrosounds uglier ;)02:43
javispedroapply the usual rule of computer science: add another abstraction layer02:43
javispedroit alwaaaaaaaaaays works ;)02:43
nox-you talking about sysctl? :)02:44
nox-(hm altho i think sysctl existed first...)02:44
alteregoDocScrutinizer: I think what I'll do in the time being is: create include (like irreco), check its' there on startup etc.02:44
alteregoTo ensure my remote config doesn't clash with others', I'll tage the remotes internal config name with my application name.02:45
alteregoOr maybe vendor tag.02:45
DocScrutinizergood plan, esp since e.g irreco starts lircd by calling /etc/init.d/lircd start02:45
alteregoI know.02:45
alteregoI'll have to do that too.02:46
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alteregoGuess what thogh! Whatever package setup sudo access for lirc, I think it's the lirc package itself, writes direct to sudoers and doesn't use .d or update-sudoers ...02:46
alteregowhat a fucking suprise ;)02:47
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javispedroi'm a heavy update-sudoers user and yet irreco never stopped working for me02:47
javispedroso whatever it does is non-important02:47
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DocScrutinizeryeah, strange02:48
alteregojavispedro: I don't know if that script ignores statements outside it's own begin/end comments ..02:48
alteregoWhich it might do ..02:48
DocScrutinizermaybe it doesn't use update-sudoers but instead writes both an append to /etc/sudoers and a file to sudoers.d/02:48
alteregoDocScrutinizer: no entry in .d ..02:49
DocScrutinizerhmm :-/02:49
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DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# grep lirc /etc/sudoers02:51
DocScrutinizeruser ALL = NOPASSWD: /etc/init.d/lirc reload02:51
javispedroit does keep stuff outside start/end indeed02:51
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# grep lirc /etc/sudoers.d/*02:51
javispedroit puts it on the end of the file02:51
alteregojavispedro: neat but its' still a package bug imo ;)02:52
javispedroas usual I have some maemo stuff outside .d02:52
DocScrutinizerit's a mega bug02:52
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DocScrutinizerthough I consider update-sudoers a fsckng braindamaged concept as well02:52
alteregoI wonder how it removes its' entries on removal :D02:52
alteregoDocScrutinizer: why?02:52
javispedroDocScrutinizer: I don't. Actually it is "the debian way"02:52
javispedroDocScrutinizer: If you ever tab-completed update- on a debian system as root, you'll see lots, lots and lots of similar utilities02:53
DocScrutinizerit's BS to check correctness of CONFIG(!!) files on every boot02:53
javispedroit does?02:53
javispedroupdate-sudoers is meant to be run at a package's postinst script02:54
javispedronot a boot time02:54
DocScrutinizerand it's no problem to make sure you have only correct sudoers.d/* files, on creation/edit time02:54
alteregoYeah not sure about boot time.02:54
alteregoI've always liked the .d pproach ...02:55
DocScrutinizersure, and sudo has an include statement for that02:55
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javispedrogotya DocScrutinizer02:56
javispedrosudo might, but not the ages-old version Maemo has ;)02:56
alteregoDocScrutinizer: like, include sudoers.d/* ?02:56
DocScrutinizerso fsckit02:56
DocScrutinizerupdate sudo instead of using this abomination called update-sudoers02:56
javispedroit was probably created in 770 times02:57
DocScrutinizeralterego: yep02:57
javispedroand then they applied the "it works don't touch it" rule02:57
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alteregoNice, my simple qml app takes 10% memory03:00
alteregoThat's the same as my quite large columbus app ...03:00
javispedromeasured with?03:00
javispedrodiscard that03:00
alteregoGuessing its' mostly Qt03:00
DocScrutinizerIt is possible to include other sudoers files from within the sudoers file currently being parsed using the       #include and #includedir directives.03:00
DocScrutinizer(from man sudoers)03:00
javispedroDocScrutinizer: introduce in sudo 1.7.something03:00
javispedroDocScrutinizer: while Maemo's one is 1.6.803:01
javispedroI know this from heart, told ya I'm a heavy update-sudoers user..03:01
DocScrutinizertaking pride in vintage?03:01
javispedroin deception :(03:01
javispedroremember I wanted to update rootsh based on sudo only?03:01
javispedroturns out the ancient Maemo sudo version doesn't support removing certain env vars03:02
javispedrothus when using sudo -s03:02
javispedro$HOME is always /home/user03:02
javispedro(not /root)03:02
javispedrowhich breaks havoc03:02
DocScrutinizerbug: update sudo to a version >=1.7 (supporting  #include and #includedir directives.). Get rid of update-sudoers03:02
javispedrobut then some idiot named javispedro would come to that bug and say, "no, update to >=1.8 which has support for removing environment variables when calling interactive shells!"03:03
alteregoDocScrutinizer: I wonder how many packages that would break :P03:04
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: I'd applaude to that comment03:04
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DocScrutinizeralterego: how could it break packages?03:04
javispedromeanwhile, for those of you who don't visit * ,
povbotBug 10739: Powertop licencing.03:05
javispedropovbot: bad bot!03:05
povbotjavispedro: Error: "bad" is not a valid command.03:05
javispedrodoesn't the entire bug report remind you of
DocScrutinizerBug 10739 - Hard to resize window with touchscreen03:06
povbotBug Powertop licencing.03:06
javispedroin tone.03:07
alteregoDocScrutinizer: actually, I suppose it wouldn't it'd just complain the update command wasn't found.03:07
javispedroalterego: or stub it03:07
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DocScrutinizeralterego: update-sudoers could get changed to do a mere syntactical chack in sudoers.d/* and discard offenders03:08
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DocScrutinizer...instead of rewriting /etc/sudoers03:09
* DocScrutinizer wonders where he thought he found a call to update-sudoers during system init03:10
DocScrutinizersomehow it's hiding away from my grep's03:11
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: (10739) WTF?!03:13
DocScrutinizeralso the WONTFIX is ultra lame. At least the dude closing the bug should have the balls to say INVALID03:15
javispedroclosing bugs "by policy" is already very maemoish03:16
* alterego wonders what other little qml apps he can work on.03:16
DocScrutinizerwell, who ever claimed meego would be less evil than maemo?03:16
DocScrutinizerhmm, time for a midnight coffee03:18
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alteregoDo we have a way to send Alt?03:19
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alteregoI mean in non terminal apps :x03:21
alteregosnd was probably the wrong word ;)03:21
DocScrutinizerwell, technically it's a bit confusing to talk about "sending alt", depending on which level you're looking at03:21
DocScrutinizerso, simple answer: no03:22
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chem|stdouble shift should be alt...03:34
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DocScrutinizerwtf is double-shift?04:27
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DocScrutinizerthe only double-shift I could think of is clearly bound to shiftlock04:28
DocScrutinizershift-Fn should be Alt04:28
DocScrutinizerwhile Fn is AltGr I've been told04:29
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* DocScrutinizer notices a postit on his laptop screen, saying "mod hw-kbd driver to support true macros and dbus signal emits"04:31
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DocScrutinizertimeless_: "Fn Taste ist gesperrt" for "Fn key locked" OUCH! "gesperrt" means you can't use it, it's blocked. Not locked in place. In German the shift-lock is called "Feststelltaste" but "Fn ist festgestellt" is also BS. I suggest "Fn Taste eingerastet" or "Fn Taste wird gehalten"04:50
DocScrutinizercorrespondingly for an eventual 'unlocked' the German term would be "freigegeben"04:54
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useris there anyone who has successfully configured thr n900 to display dmesg type boot messages at system startup?05:03
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DocScrutinizeryou need an fb-enabled kernel for this05:04
chxwould this work with the N900?05:04
DocScrutinizeralas such kernels tend to boot-OOPS and frequently need 2..7 retries until they occasionally boot up successfully05:05
DocScrutinizeruser: if you're really interested, MohammadAG can tell about the details05:05
DocScrutinizer...and probably also provide such a kernel05:06
GAN900The Lenovo sure loves to lose rubber feet.05:06
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userok. i actually found a guide to the process in the advanced booting section.05:06
DocScrutinizereverybody loves to lose rubberfeet :-P05:06
userit tells to to patch my initfs. but it dznt work05:07
DocScrutinizeruser: you need a fb-enabled kernel05:07
userok. fb is not enabled in kernel power?05:08
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DocScrutinizerit makes kernel instable05:08
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DocScrutinizerplease reread my prev posts05:08
userok. thanks a lot.05:09
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DocScrutinizerwithout framebuffer there's nothing for kernel messages to go to and displayed upon05:10
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GAN900Stupid Lenovo power lock06:00
chxpower lock?06:04
chxi have a T400s and never saw a power lock. must be new.06:04
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befordmy camera was not working yesterday, and today my phone got in a reboot loop :/06:12
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GAN900chx, IdeaPad, lock switch next to the power button.06:23
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DocScrutinizerhmm, there are quite a number of unused key-combinations. Like Fn-down;Ctrl-down;Fn-up;Ctrl-up06:59
DocScrutinizerbasically, with a decent driver, you need only one key-combination/sequence, to escape to macro mode07:01
chxspeaking of, i should release my made-to-work-on-again-n900 supergenpass plugin07:01
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TermanaFn-down;Ctrl-down;Fn-up;Ctrl-up you do the hokey pokey and you turn yourself around, that's what it's all about. WOAHHHHHHH THE HOKEY POKEY07:04
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DocScrutinizersounds like rock lobster of B52's07:05
DocScrutinizeror maybe "(why don't you want to) dance with me"07:07
DocScrutinizerprobably the song is named differently though07:07
DocScrutinizerprobably Limburger07:07
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clasificadohi all07:29
fredrinwelcome to this friendly community07:31
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DocScrutinizerwell, actually it's been "dance this mess around"08:15
ds3new n900 game using the accelerometer? :D08:17
omdag Yup bros, my name str8 cold chilli Tomek B I repp north Phoenix, fill me/ i'ma try 2 be's a rappa n shit, here's some hot beatz: <-- CHECK THIS HOT SHIT AND TELL ME WHAT U THINK, FEEL ME?08:21
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JaffaMorning, all10:47
DocScrutinizermorning Jaffa10:49
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jacekowskimorning people10:51
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crashanddiesup Maemo10:52
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TermanaDesireLightning right outside my house :p11:29
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DocScrutinizerhmm, nice11:30
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pupnik  Palm Pre Owners: your device is 'phoning home' a lot of data, including your GPS location.12:20
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RST38hpupnik: hehe.12:26
RST38hpupnik: Are you reading tmo thread by some lemming who just switched to PalmPre and dying to tell everyone about it?12:27
pupnikhaven't seen12:27
ieatlintwebos is dead :P12:28
ieatlintalmost no one on the team that made it stuck around after the hp buyout12:29
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pupnikmy ears are so sensitive i can hear my thinkpad scroll in vi12:33
pupnikthat's pretty weird12:34
pupnik  [ Julian Assange arrested by British police | ]12:36
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tank-manpupnik, sad news12:44
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crashanddiebetter link:
ieatlintyes, i always mourn the arrest of alleged rapists12:46
crashanddiethat's not why he is being arrested12:47
crashanddiehe is wanted for "questioning"12:47
crashanddiehe is not being charged with rape or anything12:47
ieatlinthe's been arrested on a warrant out of sweden, the charges listed include rape12:47
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crashanddieNo, they didn't.12:48
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tank-manremember when interpol had mike tyson on their most wanted list for rape?12:48
tank-manoh yea, he wasnt on the list12:49
jophishHi all12:49
jophishI would really like to be able to copy a sms conversation12:49
jophishIs there any easy way fo doing this apart from one page at a time?12:49
ieatlintcrashanddie: "Julian Assange, has been arrested by British police in relation to an international warrant issued by Sweden over alleged sex offences there." from the very article you just linked12:50
jacekowskiekhm, it's first time i saw a rapist that was chased trough so many borders12:50
jacekowskiand via interpol12:50
jacekowskiand other stuff12:50
derfYes, if it's in print, it must be true.12:50
crashanddieieatlint, note the wording: "At the request of Swedish authorities who want to question him in connection with a number of sexual offences".12:50
crashanddieAnd that's from interpol, not the media.12:50
ieatlintcrashanddie: ok ... and that differs from what i said how?12:50
crashanddieieatlint, questioning is a far cry from being charged with.12:51
ieatlinthe's under arrest, the arrest warrant provided by the swedes include the charge or rape... he is an alleged rapist12:51
jacekowskiwell, i wouldn't be surprised if somebody who doesn't like him just paid these girls to acuse him of that12:51
jacekowskiit happens12:51
ieatlinti never said he was charged, i said there is a swedish arrest warrant that includes the charge of rape12:51
crashanddieNo, the warrant doesn't include a charge of rape.12:51
crashanddieHe hasn't been charged with anything, it's just "questioning".12:52
ieatlintuh, then why did the uk ask sweden to clarify the maximum jail time for all charges on their arrest warrant before they would act on it, delaying his arrest for the weekend?12:52
crashanddieThey're just lazy sods who didn't work on the weekend :P12:52
ieatlintthere is a charge of rape on the warrant -- he has not be charged with rape in a court of law, arguably because extradition must precede an arraignment in sweden12:52
ieatlintand i was clear to label him an alleged rapist... the accusation has been made12:53
crashanddieWell, I don't agree with that statement12:53
crashanddieAs I haven't seen anything where he was charged with rape12:53
ieatlintyeah, again, i never said he was charged with rape12:54
crashanddieSo he's not an alleged rapist :)12:54
crashanddieHe's just wanted for questioning, as a witness12:54
ieatlinthe is... the accusation has been made12:54
ieatlintas a suspect :P12:54
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crashanddieieatlint, link?12:54
ieatlintyou're kidding yourself turning this guy into some sort of martyr12:54
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crashanddieieatlint, since when are "alleged rapists" searched by Interpol? Since when do "alleged rapists" get their international bank accounts frozen?12:55
ieatlintuh, the interpol link you sent me will do... "want to question him in connection with a number of sexual offences." ... you think they want to question him about a rape he witnessed?12:55
crashanddieIt's obviously a smear campaign12:56
RST38hHave they found child porn on him already?12:56
tank-manwhat other rape cases do interpol involve themselves with?12:56
crashanddieRST38h, nope, that'll be on a USB stick later today12:56
ieatlintsimple answers: 1) when a country issues an arrest warrant for it (eg, roman polanski) and 2) when they lie to the bank about their residency to obtain an account under false pretences12:56
RST38hcrashanddie: Oh, still choosing juiciest pics, I see...12:56
jacekowskicrashanddie: not really12:56
Nomasince when have the Swiss been interested about who owns a bank account there and with what information they have opened it?12:57
jacekowskicrashanddie: it happens quite often12:57
jacekowskicrashanddie: i mean false rape accusations12:57
crashanddiejacekowski, define "quite often"?12:57
crashanddieoh, that. Sure12:57
ieatlintNoma: since the rest of the world has been critical of them, and has forced them to do all sorts of things... including turning over financial info the US gov so it can track down people evading taxes12:58
jacekowskiand sometimes other worse stuff12:58
jacekowskiduring divorce12:58
crashanddiejacekowski, but rarely does it go international like we're seeing now.12:58
jacekowskiit does go international12:58
crashanddiejacekowski, I'm pretty sure I could rape some poor chick in Spain and remain in France for 6 months before the police bothered with me.12:58
jacekowskiit just never gets so much media coverage12:58
jacekowskicrashanddie: not really12:58
crashanddieyes, really.12:58
ieatlintheh, you're very wrong12:59
jacekowskithere was that polish bloke that apparently raped a girl in uk12:59
ieatlintif the charges are bullshit, have some faith in the legal system12:59
crashanddieMy mother was nearly burnt alive, it took about 2 years before the Spanish police accepted RFIs from the French police.12:59
jacekowskiand then moved to poland12:59
crashanddieand yes, I mean sprayed-with-petrol-and-lit-with-a-match "burnt alive".13:00
jacekowskiit took only couple days from point when they suspected him to point where they requested extradition13:00
crashanddieso don't give me the kind of shit that international policing is any kind of "fast".13:00
ieatlintextradition is pretty simple in the western world..13:00
jacekowskicrashanddie: it took couple months for it to happen13:01
jacekowskibut paperwork started moving quite soon13:01
ieatlintif it weren't for him trying to prove some ego-point, we'd never have heard about the case, and if anything his extradition to sweden would go faster13:01
crashanddieit's only fast when there is a political theatre behind it13:01
ieatlintthe mere fact it has so much media attention will slow it down, not speed it up13:02
jacekowskino, you know about that case because he's a wikileaks bloke13:02
pupnik  i love this one (funny,sfw)13:02
crashanddieieatlint, you do realise that the swedish law has been broken, right?13:02
jacekowskiif he would be just normal mr jones he would be back in sweden months ago13:02
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jacekowskibut now everybody is doing everything by the book13:03
crashanddieieatlint, when they issued the warrant, then retracted it, then issued it again, and *didn't bother notifying Assange while he was in Sweden*, rather went to the media with it?13:03
ieatlintcrashanddie: you do realize you're discounting the possibility he may be guilty of a list of crimes he's been accused of simply because you're enthralled with his temper-tantrum?13:03
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pupnikieatlint: stick to issues13:03
crashanddiewhile the swedish law expressly says that until the person has been notified, the media may not be informed?13:04
jacekowskiwho informed the media?13:04
pupnikcrashanddie: ty i didn't know that13:04
ieatlintwell, then he has quite the case against the swedish gov then...13:04
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jacekowskiwho informed the media13:04
crashanddiejacekowski, the attorney general, or the swedish equivalent13:04
jacekowskihow do you know?13:04
ieatlintkinda funny for him to complain that something from a government was leaked to the press :P13:04
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crashanddiejacekowski, press release13:04
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crashanddiejacekowski, some dude on slashdot in the comments translated it -- google translate roughly confirmed what he was saying13:05
ieatlintso he can pursue legal action if that is indeed the case13:05
jacekowskiwell, in poland all court cases are public13:05
jacekowskiwith some exceptions13:06
crashanddiejacekowski, except it isn't a court case, yet.13:06
ieatlintif a warrant is issued, it is a court case13:06
crashanddiejacekowski, this is the equivalent of officers knocking on your door to get your statement, no need for media.13:06
pupniksince such allegations are themselves harmful, it's not the place of the police to go to the media with them, ieatlint13:06
pupnik(at least in common understanding of harmful)13:06
crashanddiewell, character assassination13:07
ieatlintpupnik: if that is indeed swedish law, then as said, he has a case against them for it13:07
ieatlintbut that doesn't excuse any illegal acts of his own13:07
ieatlinttwo wrongs don't make a right, etc13:07
crashanddieactually, in the US, that would be enough to nullify the case13:07
chem|stieatlint: illegal acts?13:07
ieatlintactually, in the US, there is no obligation to inform the defendant before notifying the media13:07
ieatlintand in fact, arrest warrants themselves are public record13:08
crashanddieieatlint, no, but unlawful behaviour by the prosecutors is definitely enough to throw it out of court13:08
crashanddieit's not a fucking arrest warrant13:08
crashanddieinterpol turned it into an arrest warrant13:08
ieatlintno, it's enough for the prosecutor to be censured13:08
ieatlintif they act irresponsibly... but it's not considered irresponsible to announce an arrest warrant for someone13:09
ieatlintand there is a swedish arrest warrant for him13:09
ieatlintthe interpol "red notice" is a request for questioning, but that's separate from the arrest warrant in sweden13:09
crashanddieieatlint, do you know what the "rape allegation" is?13:09
crashanddieieatlint, it's the girl who is attacking Assange because the condom broke13:10
ieatlintheh, then sounds like he has nothing to worry about13:10
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ieatlintyou're so bent out of shape... if it's a bullshit charge, let him face it and stop bitching13:10
crashanddieieatlint, the problem is that everyone believes he's guilty13:10
crashanddieeveryone thinks he's a rapist13:10
JaffaOh yeah, that worked so well with #twitterjoketrial (not that I have an opinion on the Assange case particularly)13:10
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chem|stieatlint: his lawyer allready said he will turn in13:11
TermanaDesireHe already has been arrested i think13:11
crashanddieyeah, he has13:11
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JaffaWestminster, this morning.13:11
ieatlintcrashanddie: if he's found not guilty, it'll be widely covered13:12
ieatlintand the information he's caused to be leaked is not based on his own credibility13:12
chem|stthis is another streisand-phenomenon...13:12
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crashanddiechem|st, aye13:12
chem|stah ok didn't read any news13:12
crashanddiewell, to be honest13:12
Jaffaieatlint: Hmm; evidence suggests the media doesn't cover retractions as heavily as initial reports13:12
crashanddiethe rape thingie is just there to make people worry about assange being a rapist rather than the content of the cables13:12
ieatlintJaffa: this wouldn't be a retraction though, it'd be the outcome of what has become a high profile trial13:13
crashanddieieatlint, and he'd still be tainted13:13
ieatlintcrashanddie: that's your speculation13:13
Jaffaieatlint: "No smoke without fire". I don't think The Daily Mail will cover it positively.13:13
ieatlintwhich has no evidence to back up13:13
ieatlintJaffa: that's stretching to call them "the media" :P13:13
crashanddieieatlint, dude, have you seen the list of dirty things that have come out of the cables?13:14
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Jaffaieatlint: There are *many* accounts of people accused, and exonerated, of rape having their lives ruined.13:14
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Jaffaieatlint: So much so, there's been discussion in the UK of people accused of rape having *their* anonymity, as well as that already enjoyed by the victim.13:14
ieatlintcrashanddie: sorry, that has what relevance to his alleged criminal acts?13:14
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ieatlintat least, his alleged criminal acts in this context :P13:14
Jaffaieatlint: They count, even if I wish they didn't.13:14
pupnik"In the case of Ardin it is clear that she has thrown a party in Assange's honour at her flat after the 'crime' and tweeted to her followers that she is with the 'the world’s coolest smartest people, it’s amazing!'"
ieatlintsomehow i'm not worried that if he is indeed innocent of rape, that he'll be found not guilty and it'll be highly publicized13:15
crashanddiethe U.S. military formally adopted a policy of turning a blind eye to systematic, pervasive torture and other abuses by Iraqi forces:
ieatlintcrashanddie: you act as though this is news13:16
ieatlintor that i care13:16
crashanddietheState Department threatened Germany not to criminally investigate the CIA's kidnapping of one of its citizens who turned out to be completely innocent:
ieatlintyou're shouting off things that are completely disconnected from the allegations at hand13:16
crashanddiethe StateDepartment under Bush andObama applied continuous pressure on the Spanish Government to suppress investigations of the CIA's torture of its citizens and the 2003 killing of a Spanish photojournalist when the U.S. military fired on the Palestine Hotel in Baghdad (see ThePhiladelphia Inquirer's WillBunch today about this:"The day BarackObama Lied to me"): http://w13:16
pupnikall good leaks13:17
crashanddiethe British Government privately promised to shield Bush officials from embarrassment as part of its Iraq War "investigation":
crashanddie"American leaders lied, knowingly, to the American public, to American troops, and to the world" about the Iraq war as it was prosecuted, a conclusion the Post's own former Baghdad Bureau Chief wrote was proven by theWikiLeaks documents:
crashanddiethe U.S.'s own Ambassador concluded that the July, 2009 removal of the Honduran President was illegal -- a coup -- but the StateDepartment did not want to conclude that and thus ignored it until it was too late to matter:
ieatlint ... how long are you going to keep this up?13:18
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crashanddieU.S. and British officials colluded to allow theU.S. to keep cluster bombs on British soil even though Britain had signed the treaty banning such weapons:
crashanddieHillary Clinton's State Department ordered diplomats to collect passwords, emails, and biometric data on U.N. and other foreign officials, almost certainly in violation of the Vienna Treaty of 1961.
crashanddieI hope I made a point?13:18
ieatlintnope, not a single one13:18
ieatlintnot unless one of those cable speaks of setting up fake rape charges13:19
crashanddieieatlint, then you are blinded by your own unwillingness to debate13:19
crashanddieieatlint, read the last one13:19
ieatlintyeah, so?13:19
pupnikwe can show that the prosecution is a sham13:19
crashanddieieatlint, asking diplomats to do spies' jobs?13:19
crashanddiethere's a reason why you have diplomats and special agencies13:20
crashanddieif you can't see that separation, I'm sorry.13:20
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crashanddieanyway, time for a spot of lunch13:20
crashanddie'later all.13:20
TermanaDesirecrashanddie: hope your not looking for a us federal government job. Talking about the cables lessens your security and background clearence13:20
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ieatlintuh... you're arguing something very disconnected is my point13:20
crashanddieTermanaDesire, well, I have a security clearance with the UK government13:20
ieatlintyou're shouting about how diplomats broke the law, and here i thought we were discussing someone getting arrested13:20
X-Fadecables? I have a ton of cables :)13:20
crashanddieTermanaDesire, and one with the Aussi government13:21
crashanddieTermanaDesire, both of which are probably not valid anymore considering I don't live in the countries anymore.13:21
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tank-manieatlint, thats the thing ... the rape stuff is making people lose sight of the problems the leaks reveal13:21
ieatlinttank-man: then that's his own failing, for putting himself so much in the public eye instead of letting the information speak for itself13:22
crashanddieX-Fade, sup dawg. i noticed you liekd cables in ur cables, so i put cables in ur cables so you can leak cables using your cables.13:22
ieatlintbut that said, it's the leaks that are on the cover of time magazine, not rape accusations13:22
X-Fadecrashanddie: If you ask nicely I can tell you all about my secret cables :)13:22
crashanddieis that a euphemism?13:22
crashanddieanyway, lunch, later.13:22
X-FadeMaybe we should publish that info on the interwebs somewhere :)13:23
* DocScrutinizer idly wonders about the relevance for chan topic - not saying anything more than exactly that13:24
ieatlinti think we're done now anyway :P13:24
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DocScrutinizerOh, go ahead. Just let me fetch some coffee and popcorn13:25
JaffaX-Fade: I never have the cable I want though. Say, a short C7 laptop power adapter to euro plug (about 30cm-1m)13:25
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ieatlintyeah, i just have to call him an alleged rapist, and suddenly it's all sorts of entertainment :)13:26
DocScrutinizerI'm all for massive distribution of Y-cables, for USB13:26
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DocScrutinizermaybe even including some secret circuitry to identify it to N900 as external 5V enabled13:28
DocScrutinizerNokia's secret Y-cables affair13:28
DocScrutinizermaybe I should run a trial agains Nokia for raping my N900 with MyNokia SMS13:30
DocScrutinizerthose 2 topics should be similarly unrelated :-P13:31
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ieatlintindeed... i spent $0.20 or so on that13:32
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* DocScrutinizer yawns13:34
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* alterego quickly pours coffee down DocScrutinizers' gullet13:37
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DocScrutinizerhmm, probably not the worst idea13:37
DocScrutinizeractually yawning is unacceptable after just 15h awake13:38
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pupnik"Once, as she was lecturing, a male student in the audience looked at his notes instead of staring at her. Anna Ardin reported him for sexual harassment because he discriminated against her for being a woman and because she claimed he made use of the male “master suppression technique” in trying to make her feel invisible."13:42
DocScrutinizer51red lighrt!!13:43
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achipaX-Fade: ping14:09
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alteregoCrap, lirc's include statement doesn't work in the global /etc/lircd.conf file14:26
RST38hMhm... poor qgil stepping into the fray, predictably being torn apart14:26
alteregoOnly works in the .lirc file ..14:26
Macerskyyline was pretty good14:27
alteregoI heard it was awful :P14:27
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lcukRST38h, where?14:29
Maceralterego: it was bad til towards the end14:30
RST38hqgil is a professional, makes sure to mention Meego in every second sentence14:31
RST38hnot his fault that nobody is biting though =(14:31
jacekowskielectric eel and alligator14:32
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jacekowskicrashanddie: according to info i found14:35
jacekowskicrashanddie: he's not arrested14:35
jacekowskicrashanddie: he went himself to police14:35
jacekowskibecause of somebody threatening him with death14:36
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DocScrutinizerRST38h: meh, the whole thread feels so useless and is depressing... :-S14:45
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user__hello guys!14:46
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user__how to set username in irssi?14:52
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user__I'm new to using irssi in N900. Usually I use empathy in ubuntu.14:53
psycho_oreos /set username foo14:54
psycho_oreosor maybe it could be user_name14:54
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user__psycho_oreos okay let me do it. thx14:54
TermanaRST38h, No offence to Quim, but what professional TRIPLE POSTS14:55
X-Fadeuser__: As long as you don't listen to people who say it is /disconnect ,you should be fine ;)14:55
X-Fadeuser__: /nick foo   works too.14:56
user__X-Fade: heh okay.14:56
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jase21yeah! thanks.14:56
X-FadeSee? Much better.14:56
psycho_oreosoh you wanted to change nickname :p14:57
jase21heh, yes.14:57
X-FadeOn the command line, you can use irssi -n jase21 -c chat.freenode.net14:57
X-FadeThat will make it connect to freenode and set your nick.14:57
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jase21Now back to being seroius. Did anyone install erlang on N900?14:57
RST38hTermana: He was answering questions14:57
crashanddieX-Fade, isn't it
TermanaRST38h, so? Answer them in the one post14:58
* crashanddie sees "erlang" and goes into hiding.14:58
RST38hDoc: How many tmo threads are *not* depressing? :)14:58
X-Fadecrashanddie: Works too.14:58
RST38hTermana: x3 fewer thanks.14:58
jase21No one?14:59
X-Fadecrashanddie: Says main one is chat.14:59
crashanddiejase21, short answer: no14:59
crashanddielong answer: fuck no.14:59
X-Fadeerlang is available in extras-devel.15:00
TermanaOh I see, so we should just abandon normal forum etiquette to rob the Thanks and karma system blind15:00
MohammadAG~seen qgil15:00
infobotqgil <c0647cdc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.> was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 17h 37m 56s ago, saying: 'dneary: clear now, thanks!'.15:00
RST38hyou are the last to find out.15:00
dnearyinfobot, Yes?15:00
infobotyes is probably the opposite of no15:00
TermanaNo wonder I have such a low thanks count15:00
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jase21I have another doubt. Is there a way to own what you chat without third party controlling it like gtalk?15:02
JaffaTermana: TMO doesn't have the "multi-quote" feature that FMC has; so it's a little harder - although I try to make the effort.15:02
achipaX-Fade: ...groan...testing...groan...list...15:02
achipait's really impeding :(15:02
Jaffajase21: Jabber through your own server.15:02
jase21Jaffa: means that I need to set up a jabber server?15:03
jase21Is irc possible of something like that.15:03
X-Fadeachipa: Hmm yeah, -ENOTIME is really a pain. Let me see if I can get one of the Nemein guys to debug it.15:04
jase21Is setting up my own irc server help?15:04
marmoutejase21: if you want to chat without third party involved you have to setup the infrastruture yourself (as you don't want a third party involded)15:05
marmoutesetting up a jabber server is not a big deal15:05
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jase21marmoute: okay.15:05
DocScrutinizerwhat is the use of IRC when no third party is involved? o.O15:06
marmouteYou can setup an irc server as an alternatif (to chat using irc) or use a irc network you trust.15:06
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jase21is setting a private irc channel suffice?15:06
marmoutebut setting up a jabber server is pretty easy and allow you to link with the rest of the word.15:07
jase21my requirement is that only the people who is chatting ahould have the log.15:07
DocScrutinizerthat's just like asking how I make public transportation drive me from my home place to my office, without all those annoying other people around15:07
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jase21hah Doc.15:07
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marmoutejase21: depending of the critical level of security you want. irc is just fine15:08
marmoutechannel are generaly not logged15:08
DocScrutinizerBS! IRC is the wrong service for private chat15:08
* f3ew logs IRC *and* Jabber15:08
lcuk_ideaprivacy is hard.15:08
* jase21 confused15:09
marmoutethe real question if "jase21 WTF do you want to do ?"15:09
f3ewjase21 in what context do you want to keep chats private?15:09
DocScrutinizerand for the logging: how would you define "users that chat"? is infobot a "usewr that chats"?15:09
infobotDocScrutinizer: thanks15:09
infobotAll conversations are logged to, where "channel" is replaced by the URL-encoded channel name, such as %23freenode for #freenode. Lines starting with spaces are not logged. logs are updated daily, or the log URL is
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marmouteprepared a friends birthday ? arrange a date with you mistress ? have business talk with co-worker/partenary ? Have homeland security meeting ?15:10
jase21How about chatting with a girlfriend?15:10
MohammadAGon IRC? o_O15:10
marmouteMohammadAG: of course...15:10
DocScrutinizerjase21: if you want to do that semi-private, there's /query for that15:10
jase21Non not like that. Totally private.15:11
flux/dcc is basically private, but it doesn't have built-in encryption15:11
marmoutejase21: and why the fuck don't you want google to have you sexchat log ?15:11
fluxand it has issues with NATted environments15:11
DocScrutinizerjase21: if you need total security, I suggest using some crypto sacured protocol. maybe skype, or encrypted email15:11
fluxyou can run several encryption layers over irc, though15:11
MohammadAGor talk to her in life15:11
jase21Don't convert it into sexchat :D15:12
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trxor just send her a letter..15:12
marmouteDocScrutinizer: jase21 if you want total isolation and security use a private isolated jabber server with encription15:12
f3ewOr send her an *encrypted* letter15:12
* f3ew gets the wrench15:12
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* f3ew makes a quick xkcd reference15:13
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jase21yeah private jabber with encryption seems to be a better one.15:14
jase21oh then why not just call or sent sms? Hmm..15:14
* DocScrutinizer shakes head on weird ideas of some users15:15
marmoutejase21: sms imply third party15:15
jase21hah. Its okay.15:15
marmouteand cell call are not that secure15:15
fluxsms's are stored in plain-text in the provider's servers15:15
jase21oh right.15:15
meh4anyone know of a way to upload to imageshack or something similar with N900?15:15
meh4theres a yfrog app but its broken15:15
fluxand I haven't actually heard anyone claim they are encrypted over-air when I've queried the matter..15:15
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crashanddiemeh4, flickr?15:15
DocScrutinizerfsck, how's that IRC or maemo related?15:15
meh4crashanddie, i was thinking of something like imageshack cuz it doesnt require registeration15:16
* marmoute still wonder why the hell jase21 needs is chat with a girlfriend stay secret to the whole worlds15:16
meh4crashanddie, just upload some random picture and get the link and thats it15:16
DocScrutinizermarmoute: ++15:16
DocScrutinizermarmoute: complete nonsense15:16
crashanddiejase21, the matter of fact is that your life isn't that interesting15:17
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jase21yeah, what ever.15:17
DocScrutinizerif your talk is so secret and important, then you are probably better off sending it as a pgp crypted mail anyway - you get enough time to think about what you write15:17
jase21just wanted to clear my mind on the doubt about chatting in private.15:17
crashanddiejase21, how many people use SMSs?15:18
jase21Doc: okay.15:18
jase21crashanddie: a lot I guess.15:18
crashanddiejase21, the amount of information being exchanged is enough to make your dialogs "part of the noise"15:18
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marmouteDocScrutinizer: ++ if you need secure communication get them PGP (or whatever else) encrypted during the whole transit.15:19
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lcukcarrier pigeons.15:19
crashanddieheck, write it on paper, scan it to PGP, hide the information in a picture, print as postcard, send that with an innocuous message on the back.15:20
marmoutecould be shot down. it's not secure.15:20
DocScrutinizerlcuk: ^^^15:20
keriomarmoute: and yet it doesn't give you plausible deniability15:20
jase21damn, you need to do that much stuff just to talk?15:21
crashanddiepreferably using a scanner with a hardware encryption integrated to it, so that the actual data never reaches your computer USB port (which could've been intercepted)15:21
DocScrutinizerjase21: we are in here for free talk, not for secret talk15:21
crashanddieor just get her to use SIP over i2p.15:21
jase21I'm doing freetalk.15:21
crashanddieor hide it in the wikileaks torrent15:22
crashanddieone porn chat amongst 250k diplomatic cables should go unnoticed.15:22
jase21okay lets forget it.15:23
crashanddieor how about just meeting the chick in a bar and talking to her?15:23
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: I guess 50% of those are their own special breed of porn anyway15:23
crashanddieoh, no, that would require going outside, can't do that.15:23
crashanddieDocScrutinizer, for paranoid schizophrenics, it's uber porn15:23
jase21hah, you know the geeks in us..15:23
RST38h"The Iranian government has been attempting to co-opt the country's Ninjas and other martial artists to help out with some light repression duties, US diplomatic cables released by Wikileaks claim."15:24
jase21what happens when they are in some other distant places?15:24
crashanddieDocScrutinizer, I always wanted to prank a PH -- plug your video feed on their TV antenna, and just voiceover "I know you're there. We've been tracking you."15:24
RST38hUmmm! Ninjas!15:25
jase21wikileaks aren't interesting for me. May for some govt. poloticians.15:25
jase21what's that got to do with any programmer?15:25
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crashanddiebecause freedom of speech is so far removed from other noble ideas open source tries to proclaim?15:26
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DocScrutinizerwhat got uber secret sex chat to do with IRC and maemo?15:26
jase21well I'm chatting this on N900.15:27
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* SpeedEvil is naked.15:27
* derf is sick.15:27
DocScrutinizerwell, lemme chat about my feet here then, moment I switch to my N900 so I'm on topic15:27
jase21control your emotions. What I was asking is a logical approach to solve a computer related problem.15:28
RST38h<lcuk:#meego> blue sky, cotton wool clouds, gentle breeze, lovely fresh sea air.  sound of waves lapping on the shore. ... my perfect environment.15:28
RST38h<DocScrutinizer> well, lemme chat about my feet here then, moment I switch to my N900 so I'm on topic15:29
jase21and thanks for you answer. I think a private jabber with encryption will suffice.15:29
jase21let me talk about N900 a bit.15:29
crashanddiejase21, just for the sake of argument, what are you trying to protect? And from whom?15:29
lcukRST38h, :D pardon15:30
lcukthat was in another chan :P15:30
RST38hno, no, that was nice =)15:30
jase21okay, may be from .. I don't know. Isn't it bad to read what other talk anyway?15:30
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jase21Back to core maemo stuff. Is there any hardware instruction that helps implementing aes on omap?15:31
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lcukahhh RST38h - you mean the complete difference in topic quality between #maemo and #meego15:31
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jase21Do you geeks know?15:31
SpeedEviljase21: There is a hardware crypto unit15:32
crashanddiejase21, hang on, meet me in Gandhi Park in 10 minutes. Or maybe St Michael's Church?15:32
marmoutenext week jase21 will built is own chipset with integrated encryption to send "I miss you" to the girl next door without it's dog being suspicious15:32
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jase21SpeedEvil: okay. Any manuals?15:32
crashanddienot it's15:32
crashanddieor its at least15:32
crashanddieunless the girl is a blow-up doll, in which case "its" would be appropriate15:33
jase21crashanddie:I don't know those places.15:33
crashanddiejase21, so you're not near Coimbatore?15:34
crashanddiedamn NAT.15:34
pupnikspeaking of blow-up dolls...,01.shtml15:34
SpeedEvil jase2115:34
jase21marmoute: damn you guys. stop making fun off me.15:34
SpeedEvilcheck related threads15:34
crashanddiepupnik, a blow-up doll has come forward in the Assange case? Crying foul over alleged rape accusations?15:34
keriocrashanddie: nope15:35
kerioquite the opposite15:35
jase21SpeedEvil: Document not found.15:35
SpeedEviljacekowski: works for me15:36
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jase21yes it works!15:37
pupnikcrashanddie: allegedly she's 'in the  middle-east' now... why???15:37
crashanddiepupnik, yesterday, on national news, it was said that "Assange was on the run from international police, and could be hiding anywhere in Africa, Asia, America".15:39
jase21what a weirdos15:39
siriusnovathey are going to waterboard Assange15:39
siriusnovato give up his people behind wikileaks15:39
jase21lemme see if I can come up with AES implemnted in asm and C in N900..15:40
DocScrutinizerjase21: ask here, I think you're re-inventing that15:41
DocScrutinizeriirc jacekowski mentioned something very similar being implemented already15:42
jase21Doc: Wow! Is it already written?15:42
jase21is it using hardware ?15:42
DocScrutinizerask jacekowski15:42
crashanddieyou do realise that "software" is just a name eh, it actually uses hardware to run :P15:43
crashanddieas for hardware accel, doubt it.15:43
jase21crashanddie: hah I expected it.. I meant hardware accelerated ..15:44
DocScrutinizer[PATCH 0/2] crypto: omap-sha1-md5: OMAP3 SHA1 & MD5 driver15:44
* crashanddie listens to Tron OST15:44
DocScrutinizer[2010-12-07 14:34:40] <SpeedEvil> jase2115:44
jase21Doc: that's the link before.15:44
jase21I'll look more indepth there (using a pc).15:45
pupnikThe original prosecutor in charge, Eva Finné, dropped the charges the same week they were made and stated they were groundless.  Eva Finné was removed from the case by Claes Borgström and a new prosecutor, Marianne Ny, was appointed. Her first act was to reinstate the charges.15:45
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jase21pupnik: what has that got to do with maemo15:46
pupniksorry just remnants from earlier discussion15:46
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RST38hpupnik: ahhahaha15:46
SpeedEvil jase15:46
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pupnik   Send Marianny NY email and let her know what you think about prosecuting Julian Assange of Wikileaks after the prior prosecutor dropped the charges.15:48
RST38hpupnik: And Mr Assange is squarely ending up in the second occupation =)15:48
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jase21SpeedEvil: Do you know which repo is it? Is it gitorious?15:49
jase21Where is it committed to?15:49
jase21Hope we had a good dicsussion.15:50
jase21Going offline.15:51
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alteregoMucking around with some QML theming and drawing purdy graphics:
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alteregoIss quite fun :)16:21
RST38hHave to install the latest SDK16:21
RST38hIs QML universally usable on N900s nowadays?16:22
alteregoRST38h: ?16:22
PeYKaRhmm, dudes, is there any HN client for n900? (HackerNews)16:22
alteregoRST38h: yup, with PR1.3 :)16:22
RST38halterego: cooooooooooool16:22
alteregoYou don't need Qt Creator to do QML on the device though, I spend about half an hour to an hour at night playing with it with vi on the device every so often in bed ^.^16:23
alteregoI'm more proud I actually managed to draw that button graphic myself :D16:24
alteregoUsing inkscape, then cutting it up in The GIMP16:24
alteregoI feel like a pro-designer now ^.^16:24
lcukalterego, are they also shadable?16:25
alteregolcuk: no, I'm working on that now.16:25
alteregoYou mean colourisable yer?16:25
alteregoIf that's a real word ..16:25
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alteregolcuk: unfortunately this may not be possible in pure QML16:27
alteregoBecause I need to generate some kind of mask, which I don't think I can do.16:27
lcukthats a bit sad16:27
alteregoI can do it with a bit of C++16:28
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lcukalterego, what properties/methods would be required in qml itself to accomodate such a thing16:29
lcukif you were going to implement it, where would you expect to set things16:29
alteregoWell, you'd need a mask for the shape of the button, which in this case comprises of three segments.16:30
alteregoThen a custom overlay component, which uses that mask and colours in the area where it's supposed to.16:30
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alteregoIs that sort of what you meant?16:31
lcukfor a quick thing, yeah16:31
alteregoThe methods would just be implementing the paint method, and properties, well, colour and opacity seem like the only ones required.16:31
lcukyou know DHTML has properties and built in methods to do this kind of thing?16:31
alteregoDo you have a better solution?16:31
alteregoOh, neat :)16:32
alteregoNo, didn't know that.16:32
lcukor is it XHTML or something16:32
* lcuk waves hands a bit16:32
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alteregoYou can colourise the text if that's any consolation :P16:33
lcukI am just pondering not specifically for this one use case, but for more generic things which would allow people to use qml where its not pracitcal atm16:33
alteregoI've got another idea, but it only would work with more rectangular buttons ..16:33
lcuktransparent overlay?16:34
lcukhow do people in HTML world manage CSS only rounded corners?16:34
lcukand can that kind of thinking be combined with a transparent overlay to get what you are thinking16:35
alteregoI could write a little framework that does this all in C++, not overlay but colourises the image and allows me to reference that image.16:35
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alteregoSo you could come up with button sets of varying color, all of which use the same images internally. But you'd have an unlimited palette.16:35
lcukhmm then make that available as a QML basetype?16:35
lcukthat sounds like the button class from liqbase16:36
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alteregoSo MyButton.qml: GenericButton {color: "blue"}16:36
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lcukalterego, ok, supposing you did this and made a new egobutton.so16:36
alteregos/MyButton/BlueButton/ :D16:37
hellwolf-dellHi, the device maybe old, but is there any support for libvpx for N810?16:37
alteregoYeah, not had much luck with QML extensions in the past ..16:37
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lcukok alterego but if you spoke to the people around qt and qml libraries about how to implement it cleanly16:37
alteregoI can never seem to import them when using plain qmlviewer.16:37
lcuk(there must be examples somewhere..)16:37
alteregoOh, I've managed to make a plugin16:38
alteregoI just couldn't load it in qmlviewer16:38
lcukwell to be usable by anything, egobutton class would have to be inside qt itself16:38
lcukto then be available as a base within all qml things16:38
alteregoSo now I tend to write standalone qml based apps with the necessary infrastructure in the app.16:38
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alteregoOh, you mean you think it'd be nice to have this in QtQuick itself?16:39
lcukstandalone .exe apps with their own viewer?   or just senidng out the .qml itself?16:39
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alteregolcuk: using their own viewer widget yeah.16:39
lcukalterego, i think finding out the method to do it properly would be good :)16:39
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alteregolcuk: yes, agreed.16:39
alteregoThat's what I'm doing, effectively :P16:40
lcukto open the discussion and find out how practical things such as this would be (even if egobutton was not the specific thing wanting adding)16:40
lcuk:) good16:40
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alteregoHrm, cached images may not work actually.16:40
alteregoBecause you'd want opacity and color to be properties that can be animated with PropertyAnimation which makes the caching pointless really16:41
* lcuk nods16:41
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alteregoI think what iis really happening here is we're attempting to come up with a general purpose "themeing" engine.16:45
alteregoWhich I think is the purpose of Qt Components.16:45
alteregoSo I've asked the question in there ;)16:45
alteregoThere's extremely rudimentary support in what we have now, which is basically just the existance of border images ..16:46
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alteregoFor my next go, I'm going to use SVG instead of pngs for scalability.16:48
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alteregolcuk, Then we can start talking about morphing SVG directly from within QML ;)16:48
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alteregoHrm, svg may be a bit more tricky ..17:11
* alterego gives up for the time being and carries on doing what he was doing ..17:11
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crashanddiewhole story:
RST38hcrash: The little guys definitely liked the positive terminal17:17
BCMMare they having a competition to post filthy PCs?17:17
RST38hwas it leaking eletrolyte or something?17:17
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lcukBCMM, its theregister, they rarely need an excuse to post dirty pictures17:20
lcukbut, yeah in this case it is17:20
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BCMMi liked their excessive packaging contest best i think17:20
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alteregolcuk: check this:
alteregoGot TextButton and ToolButton :D17:22
lcukcan you apply both to the same?17:22
lcukso you can have icon+caption17:23
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alteregoYeah, thinking of doing that.17:23
lcukalterego, its "normal" for buttons to have that sort of capability17:23
BCMMfcamera used to produce broken dngs (or dngs that triggered a bug in ufraw) - iirc there was a program to fix old dngs17:23
alteregolcuk: I can do it now, but I want a clean way to do it, at the moment if you don't define an icon, it complains that "./.png" is not found.17:23
BCMManyone got the link handy?17:23
alteregoSo I'd need a way to dynamically add the icon in javascript,17:24
alteregowhich is fine, or have it force a default-icon on every instance, which would be lame if you want a label only button.17:24
* Arkenoi hopes we will get our telepathy-OTR and SMS encryption project to launch first beta before NY17:25
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BCMMmaybe i mean dcraw17:25
lcukArkenoi, "our"?17:25
RST38hmoo javispedro, Arkenoi17:25
BCMMah, got it17:25
alteregolcuk: so I think for the time being, having seperate components is probably best.17:25
lcukalterego, thats cool17:26
lcukthose do indeed look awesome17:26
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alteregolcuk: yeah, who'd have thought a hacker could have a good eye for graphics too :D17:26
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* alterego is starting to get the hang of all of this now though :D17:26
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Arkenoilcuk: i have a small team working on it. i am just a project manager not actually involved in coding.17:27
alteregoNow to come up with my own icons, rather than using a mish-mash of stock gnome and hildon :D17:28
lcukArkenoi, cool, are you on the related collabora channels and doing this as a proper project then or just hacking around17:28
alteregoThough, they do look nice.17:28
* ajf_ needs to make his n900 app look prettyier17:29
Arkenoii asked Marlinspike to provide me with redphone protocol specs to maintain compatibility, but he said there aren't any atm, so we will probably add it later17:29
Arkenoilcuk, we are hacking PoC now and will try to push it upstream once it's finished. Maybe it is not really the "proper" way..17:30
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lcukArkenoi cool you are doing stuff, make sure you call by #telepathy and keep the guys informed (via encrypted messages :P) and watch out for the project naming17:32
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Arkenoilcuk, ok, i'll ask the developers to stay in touch there17:33
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alteregoajf_: neat :)17:37
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Venemo_N900good afternoon guys17:52
DocScrutinizerhm, according to UGT there's no such thing like afternoon17:53
DocScrutinizeranyway hi Venemo_N90017:53
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Venemo_N900DocScrutinizer: there's no such thing as afternoon? why not?17:59
infobotwell, ugt is Universal Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant.
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Venemo_N900DocScrutinizer: thx18:01
Venemo_N900DocScrutinizer: I'm learning something new every day18:01
DocScrutinizer51well, this isn't completely serious :-)18:02
rcg-workwell, aint learning the "not completely serious" often the most fun18:03
pupnikwho wants to make a simple video game for mameo?  "Marrianne Ny's Swedish Rape Patrol"18:04
alteregoHah, wha? :D18:04
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pupnikok channel formed18:04
rcg-workhaving said that, and in compliance with utg: its really late and i gotta hit the road18:04
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mgedminfbreader still crashes when I use the Book Info dialog18:05
mgedminat least crashes on exit have stopped happening18:05
pupnikor maybe the Swedish Dating Game?18:06
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crashanddie"A musician who went into a central London sandwich store to buy something to eat has had a 300-year-old Stradivarius violin worth 1.2 million pounds stolen."18:16
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MohammadAGI see the point in your post javispedro18:18
MohammadAGwhat good will asking Nokia for OSSing sw do, none18:18
* MohammadAG goes back to looking at Qt18:18
MohammadAGcrashanddie, same old crap, you've probably seen it N8x0 times I guess18:18
MohammadAGsec though18:18
MohammadAGfrom qgil's post onwards18:19
MohammadAGactually, read from the top18:19
nidOpeople always seem to be losing obscenely expensive stradivarius violins all over the place18:20
nidOyou'd think these people would be rather more careful with such things18:20
Jaffajavispedro: If nothing else, your post made me smile :-)18:20
mikki-kunwhoah, now that was...18:21
MohammadAGthough it makes me think18:21
MohammadAGwill I still buy the N9?18:21
JaffaMohammadAG: No - you'll get one free.18:21
MohammadAGiOS and Symbian have no hope18:21
MohammadAGJaffa, nah :P18:21
JaffaMohammadAG: Probably/hopefully/delete as appropriate18:21
mikki-kuni think i should really do device repairs more often and educate myself in them ^^ i repaired by plainly opening the device and removing the dust from inside it Ö.ö18:21
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javispedroMohammadAG: actually I'm not sure there's a point behind it ;)18:22
crashanddieMohammadAG, I think qgil is going senile.18:22
MohammadAGcrashanddie, lmao18:22
crashanddieMohammadAG, he used the word MeeGo 4 times in a 3 line paragraph.18:22
JaffaAre we on the "conversations on IRC" bit of javispedro's timeline? ;-)18:22
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MohammadAGno, let's start making custom ROMs18:23
mikki-kunMohammadAG ++18:23
lcukJaffa, which timeline18:23
MohammadAGinclude bme and mce in them, the old non relicensed ones!18:23
JaffaMohammadAG: The Community SSU is one approach for that18:23
MohammadAGjacekowski, on that note, have you ever received a C&D for FMTXD?18:23
Jaffalcuk: See MohammadAG's link to javispedro's post on the "State of Maemo" thread18:23
* javispedro notes that the "Community SSU" fits into the "start to fix stuff by themselves" part18:24
MohammadAGJaffa, true, but we can't distribute some minority of apps18:24
Jaffajavispedro: Indeed - but I'm mildly hopeful because it started even before PR1.3 was released.18:24
crashanddieMohammadAG, I wonder, what if we removed the media player altogether?18:24
MohammadAGwe're allowed to use sed on a binary in a postinst though right? :318:24
JaffaMohammadAG: Indeed; and wget.18:24
JaffaMohammadAG: And...18:24
MohammadAG lcuk18:25
* sivang reads the post, there's work to do but this is interesting18:25
sivangread from top?18:25
JaffaIt's a tricky question: for the N<last> community to continue to thrive all the leading hackers need to keep it. However, it's in Nokia's interests (and those of the hackers themselves) to get new shiny toys18:25
MohammadAGcrashanddie, hmm, we need a proper alternative first :P18:25
crashanddieMohammadAG, not an issue18:25
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Jaffasivang: The first half of the thread can be skipped with "council suck" posts. But then look - gosh - we got a straight answer from qgil :-)18:25
MohammadAGcrashanddie, and if you're hinting at my posts *looks around maemo*, I'll complain about the browser18:26
crashanddieMohammadAG, c'mon, with lcuk, Jaffa, javispedro and you, there's a media player by tomorrow evening.18:26
JaffaNot a great answer, but an answer.18:26
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javispedroJaffa: it is tricky indeed. note that I do not have a well-formed opinion about the entire issue either, just pointing what I see it's going on.18:26
mikki-kunJaffa: hm, but hackers also need devices they can rely on ;) that's where the n900 fits the story18:26
Jaffamikki-kun: Maybe, but itch scratching's reduced.18:26
lcukcrashanddie, if you get involved it can have biometric scanning too18:26
MohammadAGcrashanddie, kinda doubt it, at least it won't be a 1:1 OSS copy18:26
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lcukwith a sniff detector you could change tracks by farting18:26
JaffaQt *does* have an awful lot of abstractions18:27
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* MohammadAG votes for lcuk as CEO of marketing18:27
crashanddielcuk, ok, I'll do VoiceOver.18:27
MohammadAGyour humor might beat Sony's :P18:27
* sivang sets away and hopes to read the not least interesting backlog from here, starting this discussion18:27
* sivang -> reading18:27
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javispedrocrashanddie: oh, I really wish. The sad truth is that if you do something like VoiceOver but OSS you would be famous.18:27
javispedrobecause you would be the first.18:28
MohammadAGcrashanddie, fix libsexy spelling in xchat18:28
MohammadAGit went ugly with hildon's Entry box18:28
crashanddiejavispedro, what, TTS on an id3 tag would be a world first?18:28
javispedroah, voiceover is tts only?18:28
javispedrowas thinking recognition, sorry18:28
crashanddieah I understand it, yes.18:28
javispedronot used to apple marketing ;)18:28
lcukdidn't stephen hawking release "satisfaction" which has TTS voiceover?18:29
crashanddiefor those who didn't get lcuk's joke:
crashanddie(and even for those who got it)18:30
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mikki-kuncrashanddie: i still don't get it..18:31
lcukreally really really want TTS plugin for xchat18:31
lcuki am in a chan here on freenode that has a stream for it18:31
crashanddiemikki-kun, then go read about stephen hawking18:31
lcuk(#fmcg jeri ellsworths channel)18:31
crashanddieMohammadAG, design the basic UI18:32
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MohammadAGdone (at least in my head)18:32
crashanddieJaffa, write the file handling (reading directories, reading ID3 tags when available)18:32
crashanddielcuk, provide the API to read the files in a separate thread18:32
MohammadAGwhat? no tracker support?18:32
crashanddiefuck tracker18:32
javispedrono MAFW integration?18:33
crashanddiefor v118:33
crashanddieI'll implement the "random" button.18:33
javispedroI'll draw the icon18:33
MohammadAGjavispedro, it doesn't have to play anything in 1.018:33
javispedrothen ask wazd to paint it18:33
lcukand alterego can implement it in qml18:33
MohammadAGqml takes too much memory :P18:34
MohammadAGor so he says18:34
javispedroand here we hit another problem18:34
Gizmokid2005'allo frals :)18:34
MohammadAGquestion is, should I take this seriously and start today?18:34
crashanddieWhy the hell not18:34
crashanddiePeople moan about media player18:35
crashanddiePeople say "It's open source, yaaaay, we can hack away at it@18:35
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crashanddieI say, fuck it, and let's do it.18:35
lcukevery time I clap my hands a new media player is born somewhere on the surface of the planet18:35
crashanddielcuk, or we hack one that is decent and available and package it to replace the stock one18:35
fralsello Gizmokid200518:35
lcuk\o frals18:35
MohammadAGlcuk, you don't clap a lot then :P18:35
Gizmokid2005frals: which fmms file?
lcukare you implementing send via MMS? :D18:36
fralso/ lcuk18:36
fralslcuk: ? ;o18:36
fralsGizmokid2005: aye18:36
lcukon the new media player discussed ^18:36
MohammadAGcrashanddie, agreed, I'll start on a UI today18:36
alteregoDunno what it is yet, but its' fun:
MohammadAGcrashanddie, about hacking an existing one, I doubt it'll end up nice18:37
fralslcuk: where what?18:37
crashanddieMohammadAG, cool.18:37
crashanddieWhat codecs do we support?18:37
crashanddiewav, mp3?18:37
crashanddiein v118:37
alteregocrashanddie: we use mafw18:37
lcukfrals scrollback a page or so to where stephen hawking was discussed18:37
MohammadAGall, we use gstreamer18:37
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crashanddiealterego, Morris Area Freewheelers Bicycle Club?18:37
MohammadAGor mafw, whatever18:38
crashanddiewtf is mafw?18:38
fralslcuk: sure, i have dbus api for starting fmms ;-)18:38
MohammadAG(doesn't mafw use gstreamer anyways?)18:38
Gizmokid2005alright frals, here some fun funs. "./ GtkWarning: gtk_list_store_remove: assertion `VALID_ITER (iter, list_store)' failed  [next line] self.liststore.remove(miter)"18:38
alteregocrashanddie: media application framework, the same backend the stock media player uses/18:38
andre__multimedia application framework18:38
MohammadAGcrashanddie, a backend18:38
lcukfrals, win \o/18:38
crashanddiebut it sucks?18:38
fralsGizmokid2005: you can paste everything in a querty, please :)18:38
crashanddieI thought we wanted to improve?18:38
javispedrocrashanddie: but it is open ;)18:38
MohammadAGwhat the media player poorly uses18:38
alteregoThe UI sucks18:38
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crashanddiethen let's go for MAFW18:38
alteregomafw is pretty cool.18:38
alteregoShould probably use tracker too ..18:39
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crashanddienot in V118:39
alteregoBut not rely on it.18:39
fralsGizmokid2005: ah, i suspect i know why its failing... had to change some stuff when enabling livesearch, will add it to my list of stuff to check18:39
crashanddiethat's for v1.518:39
fralsGizmokid2005: thanks for letting me know :)18:39
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alteregoAre you planning on making it look like the stock player?18:39
crashanddiejavispedro, can you look around at replacing the binary? What command line options are used? How is it called? What do we need to replace? Can we use apt to replace it?18:39
* javispedro notes that it should18:39
Gizmokid2005frals: thanks for letting me report it :) Like I said, they disappear when I start it up again, just don't remove when I do it now.18:40
lcukalterego, design goal of MAFW was to have different backend support18:40
lcukas announced it was expected to work with gstreamer and mplayer afaik18:40
Robot101MAFW has turned into a new project now called Grilo18:40
javispedrocrashanddie: nothing weird about it.18:40
Robot101it fixes everything the MAFW guys were ashamed with :)18:40
Robot101if you want something like MAFW, use Grilo :)18:40
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alteregoWe don't want something like mafw .. We want mafw ..18:41
lcukIndependence of the technology. Since MAFW is a plugin based framework, it is not tied to a particular multimedia technology (GStreamer, MPlayer, Tracker). Plugin developers have freedom to choose the technologies they want to use in their plugins, and application developers do not need to know about them."18:41
MohammadAGback to physics, brb in some time, we'll start on it today18:41
lcukahhh Robot10118:41
crashanddiejavispedro, can apt replace the binary? (or copy it/symlink)18:41
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javispedroyou don't want to do that18:42
javispedroeither upgrade it via ssu or create a new bianry18:42
crashanddieupgrade via SSU it is then18:42
MohammadAGthat's why I hate modified hildon-desktop18:42
MohammadAGthe package it makes at least18:42
crashanddienew binary is going to fuck up calls -- whenever the rest of Maemo calls the media player, the old one will be used18:43
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crashanddieanyway, gotta run18:46
crashanddieNeed to finish the roadmap presentation for tomorrow morning18:46
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* sivang ran for something and is back reading18:48
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sivangthe forum thing is trouble for folks that can't get used it, I must say. It is like moe of the community happening is there and if you prefer MLs you are left out, for the most part.18:50
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javispedrosivang: fortunately we have excellent MWKN coverage about both channels ;)18:51
Jaffasivang: Ha, I can point to some threads that say the opposite18:51
Jaffajavispedro: :)18:51
lcuksivang, same for many things, with multiple ways of communication I doubt there is a person comfortable with all18:51
sivangJaffa: ;)18:51
sivanglcuk: true18:52
JaffaMohammadAG: A new media player should be an improved, open, but basicallt the same, Qt GUI over MAFW/Tracker/Qt Multimedia. Then there's no design challenge (except for obvious niggles) to get to a "happy state" for further customisation.18:52
sivangbtw, fwiw I was deeply interested in that meeting, but by the time it happened I was so confused with all the happening and a bit sick, that I missed it :-/18:53
sivangI am slowly learning that you can't dance at all weddings in a conf18:53
JaffaAs for taking an existing player and customising the UI, the UI's the hardest bit and taking a desktop one of relative significance and modifying it... is mad.18:53
JaffaIMHO. YMMV.18:54
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javispedroNote that just trying to make it Qt instead of Hildon already makes it different.18:54
JaffaBut a QML media player over MAFW/Tracker should be "relatively" easy.18:54
javispedroIt will be slow to start, for example.18:54
Jaffajavispedro: It's supposed to have similar functionality, be open source and maintain the same interfaces.18:55
Jaffajavispedro: true18:55
sivangMAFW= media application framework?18:55
lcukand afaik there are already qml bindings for qtm?18:55
JaffaDepends on the skills of the people implementing it, I guess. But a media player is mostly a UI job18:56
Jaffasivang: correct18:56
sivangso the idea is to have most of the logic of the app in QML?18:56
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Jaffasivang: Picture the Fremantle media player in your head; there are about 6 or so views which map to QML "states" quite nicely. Most of the UI is bespoke, so std. controls are less of an issue.18:57
JaffaQML startup performance could be an issue, I've only done noddy things so far.18:58
javispedrodoing such a player in Qt Quick would be the best action we could take from a Meego PoV -- suddenly, Meego gets a reference media player that doesn't suck, and MeegoOnN900 people are happy.18:59
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javispedrohowever, not so sure if MaemoOnN900 people would be.19:00
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sivangcan we make it easy to have for both {Maemo,MeeGo}OnN900 people?19:00
sivangthere are other apps that need unsucking, btw19:00
sivangnot just the media player19:00
sivangI mean, out of the meego reference UX19:01
sivangbut mp could be a good start19:01
Jaffasivang: Tackle one at a time. Photo viewer & media player are the two easiest IMHO19:01
sivangI agree19:01
Jaffajavispedro: Cos of perf or ...?19:01
sivangeven I can help with an mp19:01
sivangif it's lots of QML, to start with19:01
javispedroperformance, potential of non-integration with the rest of the system, etc.19:01
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Arkenoiwhat is your opinion, how long will it take for meego/n900 to be feature match for maemo?19:02
sivangjavispedro: what sort of non integration points are we seeing here apart from different UX?19:02
javispedrofor example, yesterday we were discussing about Sygic muting mediaplayer when giving voice instructions19:02
Arkenoiincluding third-party software etc19:02
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javispedroI do not own sygic, but I believe it uses libplayback for that task19:03
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javispedrohow does libplayback interact with Qt? because it interacts quite funnily with SDL: it causes deadlocks everywhere.19:03
javispedrooh, and its closed.19:03
sivangjavispedro: ah, finally a turnbyturn app that just works? :)19:03
Arkenoiit works, but no traffic data in it yet19:04
sivangArkenoi: having navigational data is ana amazing leap forward, per maemo19:04
sivangis ti free?19:04
javispedrosivang: sygic is quite old, it happened on the first days of the n90019:04
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javispedroback when things seemingly were going to be a bit more brighter than previous NITs..19:05
Arkenoiwell, mappero does everything except voice assistance. actually a possibility for voice plugins seems to be present in menus, but i do not know if it is really functional19:05
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Arkenoiit is not free and it is quite expensive for todays standards19:06
sivangjavispedro: so it looks, yes, looks like a bit of investement went into developing this19:06
* sivang hopes mappero can use OSMs19:06
lcukalterego, Jaffa - how long is qml startup time at the moment?19:06
lcukfor even noddy examples19:07
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sivangso, speaking out of poor practice, maybe having a QML vm prestarted could help?19:07
sivang(/me recalls this is doen for python)19:07
javispedrothat's what Hildon does also19:07
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lcukforget anything else at the moment: what is the startup time :P19:08
lcukso we have baseline for people to actually work from19:08
sivanglcuk: shudder as a componenet or the literal meaning ? :)19:08
lcukliteral meaning19:08
lcuki am used to practically instant start for things19:08
trumee~seen Robot10119:08
infobotrobot101 is currently on #maemo #meego. Has said a total of 17 messages. Is idling for 27m 56s, last said: 'if you want something like MAFW, use Grilo :)'.19:08
trumeeRobot101: ping19:09
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javispedrohrw|gone: join the rant in the talk.maemo.org19:10
sivangregarding maemo's knowledge learned, I'm not sure it is actively used in meego so far, at least from what I've asked and heard even during the conf19:11
sivang(reading through the intro on the talk. article)19:11
javispedrothat recent "wontfix by policy" bug in doesn't help19:11
sivang"If you're waiting for directions as to what you should do next, stop waiting. Continue developing for Maemo or start developing for MeeGo. In the end, both will support each other."19:12
andre__javispedro, uh? got an example URL?19:12
povbotBug 10739: Powertop licencing.19:12
javispedropovbot: shut up!19:12
povbotjavispedro: Error: "shut" is not a valid command.19:12
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* javispedro is also condemned to repeat history19:13
sivangjavispedro: wow19:14
sivangjavispedro: shocked19:14
andre__let me reopen...19:14
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trumeeguys, why i cant find the src of telepathy-sofiasip here,
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* sivang regrets seeing this bug report and the responder's comment. this is taking wind out of sails.19:16
sivangthanks andre__ ;)19:17
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javispedrotrumee: no idea why the interface doesn't show it, probably not implemented for device repos19:18
trumeejavispedro: thanks19:18
andre__yeah, doesn't show any links to free default packages19:19
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Jaffalcuk: FWIW, my simple QML hello world starts in about 3 seconds from clicking icon. Fremantle Media Playeer takes 419:19
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lcukJaffa, try something simpler - calculator afaik starts quickly19:20
sivangjavispedro: fremantle mp connects to tracker no?19:20
javispedroJaffa: 3 seconds sound snappy actualy19:21
sivangjavispedro: and asks for items19:21
sivangJaffa: I read you statement about cross platformness, you are aware the promise is far from being complete?19:21
javispedrosivang: I do not have the whole picture in mind but I think media player just delegates on mafw for media discovery19:21
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sivangjavispedro: and then mafw talks to tracker?19:22
Jaffalcuk: Clock takes 4 too to replace the pre-startimage with the actual window19:22
Jaffasivang: That was my point ;)19:22
Jaffajavispedro: Single state, Rectangle with gradient and a Text19:22
javispedroI find it funny that my radio application takes exactly one second to coldboot ;)19:22
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lcukJaffa, surprisingly, clock does quite a bit and takes longer than calc afaik (i have both on my desktop)19:23
javispedroyeah, clock seems weird19:23
lcukjust my desktop is downstairs19:23
Jaffalcuk: I don't have Calc on my desktop19:24
lcukahh no prob then19:24
Jaffalcuk: 2.519:24
sivangjavispedro: ah right, I was getting the impression you were saying "in develop we trust" :)19:24
Jaffalcuk: i.e. on this diff is small between19:24
lcukok fair enough19:25
lcuki have a metric tonne of alarms in mine19:25
lcukperhaps thats the diff19:25
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javispedrona, I have 4 alarms and even then clock is the slowest application to boot from the entire first page on my launcher19:26
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sivangi really need to get on top of the forums19:30
sivangso much relevant stuff there19:31
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sivangwell, in terms of the council, at least19:31
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MohammadAGJaffa, it should also be easily portable19:34
Venemohello MohammadAG :)19:35
sivanghey Venemo19:35
Venemohi sivang19:35
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sivangI have to get back to work, though this thread is terribly interesting.19:35
sivangsee you all later19:35
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trumeeThis page doesnt discuss how to terminate dnsmasq connection it created on ocsuite disconnect,
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trumeeand i guess killall -9 dnsmasq in /usr/sbin/ will not be good idea.19:37
MohammadAGhey Venemo19:40
Venemowhat's up?19:40
MohammadAGnothing much19:41
RST38hany depressing news today? :)19:41
derfA friend of mine passed his interview with Nokia... for a position in the group that makes Ovi Maps.19:42
derfThat depressed me, at least.19:43
SpeedEvilDo they supply the bike, clipboard, and GPS?19:43
RST38hderf: In Germany?19:44
MohammadAGI wonder how Nokia HQ is19:45
derfRST38h: Yes.19:46
MohammadAG- "My coffee machine is broken" - "WONTFIX"19:46
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RST38hderf: Oh well, it is still in Germany, so impractical19:47
RST38hderf: But you can apply for Ovi Services jobs in Boston :)19:47
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VenemoI have a Nokia-branded mug19:48
Venemothe Nokia logo is printed on the inside19:49
RST38hVenemo: Well, once you get really pissed off at Nokia, you can use it for urinal or something, rather than vent your feelings at TMO!19:50
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VenemoRST38h: lol19:51
VenemoRST38h: your sense of humor is nice :D:D:D19:51
VenemoRST38h: although it's nowhere near lcuk's19:51
RST38hVenemo: So what has he proposed to use it for?19:52
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VenemoRST38h: what?19:53
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javispedrothe I got a Pre thread was closed?19:55
javispedropreemptively I guess ;)19:55
javispedroaccording to slashdot, Meego is killing KDE ;)19:57
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hrw|gonejavispedro: by doing zombie attack?19:59
javispedrobah, as usual, slashdot being trollish20:02
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MohammadAGcrashanddie, so, who's coding the media player again? me, you, lcuk and?20:04
hrw|goneheh..   I love that rant thread... 'we open maemo5 code by improving meego'20:04
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hrw|goneand it reminded me one thing which I have to do - mark all maemo bugs which I opened as wontfixgetlostsucker (if product.vendor==nokia)20:06
crashanddie_MohammadAG: sitrep20:07
Robot101trumee: pong20:07
crashanddie_preferably UI screenshot.20:07
trumeeRobot101: any response from vox?20:07
Robot101trumee: yeah, the guy called me an asshole yesterday!20:07
trumeeRobot101: what!!!!!!!!20:07
Robot101trumee: he apologised though - think he was having a bad day20:07
Robot101(we exchanged quite a few mails)20:08
trumeeRobot101: hmm. what was furious about?20:08
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trumeeRobot101: *was he20:08
MohammadAGcrashanddie_, yeah sure, sec20:08
Robot101oh just a general rant about demanding board/shareholders/IRS/employees/etc etc and people who were all take take take20:08
Robot101I explained the principle again - and he apologised - said he'd try and sort the source out by the end of Dec20:09
Robot101bit weird though, I'm sure he spent more time mailing me than just asking a tech to put the src on the website20:09
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trumeeRobot101: the source is out :)20:09
crashanddie_what are you guys talking about?20:10
markinfoWhat programm is needed to take Photos?20:10
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* sivang lied to himself and continued with the thread.20:10
trumeecrashanddie_: source code of vox-mobile app available on ovi store.20:10
Robot101trumee: whereabouts?20:11
trumeecrashanddie_:nice bit of code, adds MWI support to sip.20:11
sivangwhen someone responds to my posts, will I get a notification from tmo?20:11
trumeeRobot101: he sent me an email yesterday. let me dig it out.20:11
crashanddie_if you "watch" the thread20:11
javispedroa python hildon app no less.20:12
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javispedrohm... python only in deps..20:13
Robot101trumee: eh... so why was he flaming me and didn't just give me the URL20:13
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trumeeRobot101: He just sent me an email yesterday so i guess he needed time to sort this out.20:14
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Robot101trumee: who was this?20:14
trumeeRobot101: Phil20:14
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Robot101trumee: ah, I was talking to someone else - Mark20:15
MohammadAGcrashanddie_, just wondering, should I follow the same UI as the stock one?20:15
MohammadAGcause I can't find the damn icons it uses20:15
trumeeRobot101: ah i see. Phil is the one who developed that code.20:15
crashanddie_MohammadAG: no need for an exact copy -- UI is probably copyright/patented or something20:15
crashanddie_MohammadAG: but something in the same spirit20:15
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luke-jrcrashanddie_: AFAIK, USA has judged UI to be non-copyrightable20:16
crashanddie_MohammadAG: also, I was thinking about using some kind of visualisation. I'm sure alterego or kot can help with that.20:16
crashanddie_plus, an exact copy would be quirky20:16
trumeeRobot101: Now, when are collabora people going to merge it into telepathy sip upstream? :p20:16
MohammadAGcrashanddie_, gstreamer can handle that too20:16
pupnik  wikileaks cablegate torrent diffs, deletions, missing files, restored files20:16
MohammadAGlol javispedro didn't see that before I pasted the link20:16
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* javispedro has online docs bookmarked for obvious reasons...20:17
crashanddie_yeah, but not well, last I checked a lot of dependencies were missing, MohammadAG20:17
RST38hHo ho ho20:17
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MohammadAGcrashanddie_, someone got them working with some pipes20:19
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markinfoI am looking for a new Tablet. I had nokia N810. Nokia n900 is too smal. What could you recommend?20:26
SpeedEviltoo small in what way?20:26
markinfoit is hardly to read. Fine resolution but small, there is no Stylus,20:26
markinfois there something like nokia n810 but more powerfull?20:27
javispedron900 does have stylus. next one will not20:27
jacekowskimarkinfo: you can change font size20:28
markinfowell - there is many Phone and tablets. Not only Nokia.20:28
markinfoIt would be the best to have the same desktop as here - XFCE. Is it possible?20:28
markinfoI do not like to learn many new Programs - just small Desktop with some application for calling.20:29
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luke-jrmarkinfo: nothing sane exists, unfortunately20:33
luke-jrmarkinfo: XFCE on N900 is possible, howeve20:34
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trumeeRobot101: is that code interesting?20:37
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Robot101trumee: I'll get someone to take a look20:39
trumeeRobot101: nice20:39
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pupnik  ubuntu releases 'vi assistant'20:43
javispedro( ;) )20:44
MohammadAGcrashanddie, UI came out shitty on the N900, sec, getting a designer on board20:45
MohammadAGQListWidgets don't work well on the N900 :/20:46
* javispedro lols20:47
pupnikJudge Howard Riddle of the City of Westminster Magistrates Court, denied Julian Assange bail today,0,2625246.story?track=rss20:47
javispedrothe idiots at xda eventually got tired of trying to port webos to their htc hero by "editing inittab" so they started faking screenshots20:47
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javispedroI'm sure engadget will fall for it20:49
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MohammadAGcopying a UI is harder than making one20:51
MohammadAGShouldn't use a QListWidget (cc crashanddie)
alteregoFirst time I've seen webos20:54
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MohammadAGalterego, got a workaround/something similar to the media player's buttons in Qt?20:55
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alteregoI could do it quite easily ...20:55
alteregoWait which buttons? ;)20:56
MohammadAGalterego, take a look at the link above20:56
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alteregoYeah, that shouldn't be too hard20:58
alteregoI'd use QML too :P20:58
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MohammadAGalterego, I thought that wastes memory21:00
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alteregoNo, no more than Qt ..21:00
alteregoAnd with an opengl optimized canvas it should be nicer.21:00
* lcuk desires line drawing in gl21:01
javispedrounfortunately on the n900 ...21:01
lcuka forgotten art21:01
javispedronon fullscreen gl...21:01
alteregojavispedro: is that a problem?21:01
javispedroit is slow.21:01
MohammadAGespecially if we add visualizations21:02
javispedroand you know why ;)21:02
alteregoThat's annoying21:02
* lcuk does already know, I just rather have it mentioned for others who are listening with interest21:02
javispedrothe long version or the condensed one? ;)21:03
alteregoI'm interested to hear both actually.21:03
javispedrobah, you evil.21:03
* alterego chuckles21:03
RST38hMohammad: You do not need or *want* to copy Nokia's Media Player UI21:04
RST38hMohammad: it is atrocious21:04
RST38hMohammad: Please, copy iPod / iTunes player instead, please21:04
jacekowskisome guy thinks i'm master hacker and can hack every website21:04
alteregoI suppose he's got a point ..21:04
jacekowskiand he's linking me exploits and asking why they don't work21:04
RST38hMohammad: (yes, I know all about iStuff being evil etc, but it is very usable, so mke use of it)21:05
javispedrojacekowski: s/hacker/cracker21:05
RST38hand make it rest at that21:05
MohammadAGRST38h, I've never seen the iPod's music player21:05
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RST38hMohammad: There is also an unfinished iTunes-like player project for Maemo. Let me look it up...21:07
javispedrotbh I don not like that UI much21:07
javispedrotbh also they maemo one and ipod one arent that different21:07
lcukmake a concepts thread21:07
RST38hjavispedro: Well, it is way better than Maemo5 one21:08
lcukdiscuss till blue in face21:08
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lcukmake multiple mockups21:08
lcukfeel them21:08
RST38hlcuk: ...not.21:08
lcukqml should allow that? right?21:08
RST38hlcuk: Take Quasar and either fix or copy it. Period.21:08
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lcukthe idea is to allow designers free reign *grin*21:08
javispedronah, reinventing the wheel is funnier! (/me hopes alterego doesn't read this line)21:09
RST38hthat will accomplish nothing21:09
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MohammadAG<lcuk> qml should allow that? right? << we don't want a slow UI on the N90021:12
RST38hwell, qml does not necessarily mean slow ui21:12
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RST38hI would at least try qml, to assert how useful it is21:13
RST38hif it is, in fact, no slower than gtk+, using QML will speed up your UI development by an order of magnitude21:13
alteregojavispedro: making better wheels is fun21:13
Basho/ hi21:13
lcukRST38h, swings and roundabouts21:13
MohammadAGRST38h, and so will using Qt Designer21:14
MohammadAG(I'm sure Bash would like to help)21:14
lcukgtk can accept .ui files21:14
* javispedro has yet to try qml...21:14
lcukor whatever they are21:14
alteregotbh, writing core apps in Qt is probably better than using gtk ..21:14
javispedrodepends on wheter your primary target is m5 or meego21:14
BashMohammadAG:  what orientation will u be using?21:14
MohammadAGBash, can you make up a quick UI concept? Probably in photoshop, both21:14
MohammadAGboth :)21:14
alteregojavispedro: why would that matter? Maemo 5 has better Qt support than meego anyway ..21:15
MohammadAGfocus on buttons, instead of graphics for now21:15
MohammadAGbuttons/widgets etc21:15
Bashlocation or design?21:15
javispedroalterego: not perfect either, and, is that true?21:15
MohammadAGlocation, a UI concept, how it will look, the same way any app is made :)21:15
alteregojavispedro: well, yes.21:15
MohammadAGthen when can add the eye candy21:15
alteregojavispedro: if you want to write for meego, at the moment you're basically stuck doing fullscreen apps or using mtf21:16
RST38hMohammad: Tried Qt Designer. Worthless.21:16
lollooI couldnt get Status menu in portrait mode to work , what do you think is wrong?21:16
MohammadAGRST38h, couple it with Qt Creator :)21:16
RST38hMohammad: You will type the ui code fasterthan you can design it in the qt designer. The same goesfor modifications.21:16
alteregoRST38h: depends who "you" are ;)21:17
MohammadAGreinstall the status menu using my deb and kill the status menu, then make sure you installed my desktop package21:17
alteregoThough I do everything by hand myself ..21:17
javispedroRST38h: have you tried javafx?21:17
alteregoYou'll learn more if you do it that way too ..21:17
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RST38hjavispedro: no and not going to21:18
lollooMohammadAG, is this one
RST38halterego: does not matter21:18
MohammadAGwriting by hand gives you more freedom, designing in the designer is significantly faster21:18
Bashk MohammadAG  gimme 15 mins :)21:18
MohammadAGlolloo, yep21:18
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RST38halterego: try designing a really good ui in qt designer (scalable etc)21:18
RST38halterego: see yourself failmiserably21:18
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RST38hMeanwhile: "U.S. Celebrates Wikileaks Arrest By Announcing Press Freedom Day"21:18
MohammadAGBash, we're not in a hurry21:19
alteregoRST38h: I have, that's why I don't use it ..21:19
RST38hMohammad: Not faster. Once you go from placing some buttons at absolute coordinates to using layouts with fillers (to get scalable UI), you will see that qt designer is not worth it21:20
* javispedro suddenly remembers fillers21:20
javispedro*shudder *shudder*21:20
RST38hyea, not the best concept21:20
RST38hI think if Qt defined layouts in terms of HTML TABLEs, it would have more success21:21
javispedrothat's what SWT designer did last time I saw it21:21
javispedroalso known as grid layout21:21
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lcukmandelUI would be interesting, defining the whole UI based on a set of coordinates within the complex plane :)21:24
RST38hKOffice kaput!21:24
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troulouliouhi , is var/lib/dpkg some kind of tmpfs cause each time i do apt-get update i download everything21:25
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MohammadAGdon't touch that directory21:25
MohammadAG/var/cache/apt/archives is the temp directory21:26
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troulouliouok but it is volatile upon reboot ?21:26
trouloulioucause i have a really slow internet connection and each time i have to download 20 meg21:26
troulouliouor 1021:26
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alteregoUrgh, so many bloody iPhone 4 adverts on TV it's making me quite annoyed :/21:28
javispedrobuy buy buy buy buy buy buy21:28
alteregoOh, that's better (mutes TV)21:28
MohammadAGlucky you, I still see 3G ones21:28
javispedroalterego: buy buy buy buy buy buy buy21:28
RST38hAngels we have heeeeard on high21:28
RST38h  Tell us GO OUT AND BUY!21:28
alteregoI like QMLs layout strategy21:29
alteregoYou've got columns, rows and grids21:29
alteregoBut you can also use anchor points.21:29
alteregoWhich is cool21:29
alteregoI'm working on scalable UI elements at the moment.21:30
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alteregoGrrr ..21:43
MohammadAGsame feeling;
MohammadAGwell, setIcon() isn't the way to go then21:47
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RST38hthere should be scale there somewhere21:47
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* RST38h vaguely remembrs setting icons scale21:47
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alteregoMohammadAG: you probably want to just make that an image rather than a button21:48
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MohammadAGhow didn't I remember to set that21:48
alteregoThen process the mouse button event.21:48
javispedroMohammadAG: I guess Qt must have an option  to set the stock icon size to use21:49
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trouloulioucould anybody explain me the problem with apt-get update on maemo , it always download several mega ... seems like no caching21:49
nox-thats just the package `index' (which keeps changing)21:50
alteregotroulouliou: extras gets regenerated every half an hour21:51
trouloulioualterego: ho ok21:52
troulouliouand about aircrack , is it usable actually ? i get a weird error about iw but wireless tools is installed21:53
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trouloulioucan i use hold with dpkg has under Debian to keep a package at a version ??21:57
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MohammadAGalterego, set this as a styleSheet for a QToolButton, background-color: a(0);21:58
MohammadAGwatch Qt Creator segfault21:58
* javispedro suggest you file that, could be a potential security bug21:59
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javispedrocss parsing related crash22:00
javispedromalformed css parsing related crash22:00
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javispedroor is it wellformed?22:01
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alteregoI don't think so no.22:02
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MohammadAGwell, that's solved, sorta22:10
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MohammadAG alterego :P22:12
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MohammadAGyeah, except it doesn't use layouts :P22:15
MohammadAGand I had to move the buttons pixel-by-pixel till they matched the background22:15
alteregoWell, tbh, you should have been doing that all along :P22:16
* MohammadAG grumbles22:16
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troulouliouHi does anybody have a good link for dual boot on maemo ?22:17
trouloulioui would like to test neopwn22:17
MohammadAGneopwn's just a kernel22:18
jacekowskii just found that in my referers22:18
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troulouliouMohammadAG: sure ? looks like another distri for N90022:18
troulouliouwith dfferent repos22:18
MohammadAGno, it's a kernel22:19
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alteregoFinal UI:
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alteregoWell, except the close button, and I'm going to add a switch to dashboard button in the top left aswell ..22:22
lbtthe #meego-meeting area is discussing (amongst other things) how we can make meego more inviting to maemo users22:23
MohammadAGsexy :P22:23
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lbtnow we have a meego OBS that can (almost) build for fremantle22:23
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MohammadAGaren't the UI buttons small though?22:23
lbtjust in case anyone wanted to chat22:23
alteregoMohammadAG: yes22:23
alteregoThey are a bit.22:23
alteregoBut it looks awesome ..22:24
MohammadAGlbt, good luck convincing users like me ;)22:24
alteregoAnd I can use it well enough. So we'll see how many people complain.22:24
* MohammadAG lurks22:24
alteregoMuch better than my original UI :D22:24
MohammadAGalterego, start a bugtracker, then when users say it's too small mark the bug as THATSWHATSHESAID22:24
* MohammadAG feels childish, back to app22:24
MohammadAGdo you think I should use icons from theme, or just add them to the resources file?22:25
MohammadAGand... here's my first problem, :/22:27
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MohammadAG(when clicked)22:27
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RST38hMohammad: should be a separate clicked-icon, no?22:35
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MohammadAGthat's it?22:36
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* RST38h scrolls back22:36
RST38hIn the resource file, default to icons from theme :)))22:36
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MohammadAGdo you know what the button clicked image is called?22:37
RST38hno but I can look up22:38
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MohammadAGRST38h, looked, couldn't find it :)22:46
RST38hfound a few alternaive icon themes, looking there22:46
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alteregorenders fine when using gl, renders glitchy without23:00
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Venemohi again :)23:20
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alteregoAloha Venemo23:23
Venemohey alterego :)23:23
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MohammadAGhmm, so if I have the maemo Qt SDK installed, I need another Qt Creator for MeeGo :/23:27
Venemowhy is that?23:27
VenemoI thought the same one can be used23:27
MohammadAGit's pulling in meego-sdk-qtcreator23:28
MohammadAGas per
MohammadAGroot@mohammad-i5laptop:/home/mohammad# mad-admin create -f meego-core-armv7l-1.1No predefined target/runtime 'meego-core-armv7l-1.1' found.23:29
VenemoMohammadAG: you're gonna do MeeGo dev now? :)23:29
MohammadAGjust having a look23:30
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rsc_hi all23:30
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rsc_w00t_ are you here?23:31
Venemo~seen w00t_23:31
infobotw00t_ is currently on #maemo (7d 10h 35m 53s) #meego (7d 10h 35m 53s). Has said a total of 2 messages. Is idling for 4d 4h 14m 32s, last said: 'oops'.23:31
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rsc_ty Venemo :)23:31
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Venemorsc_: infobot is always helpful23:32
infobotaw, gee, MohammadAG23:32
rsc_I reask for my problem: is there someone that know how start an application (if possible) instead the virtual keyboard?23:32
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javispedroin Fremantle?23:33
rsc_yes :)23:33
Venemorsc_: check out Hildon Input Method Framework23:33
javispedrofirstly, I smell trouble here -- can you describe what you want to do?23:33
MohammadAGVenemo, damn, you beat me to it23:33
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MohammadAGjavispedro, probably a virtual keyboard replacement23:33
rsc_ty Venemo, again23:33
javispedroMohammadAG: that would be valid, but..23:34
MohammadAGit's the wrong way, I know23:34
javispedrorsc_: you want to replace the stock keyboard?23:34
rsc_javispedro: I want to start FastSMS instead of virtual keyboard for writing sms23:34
* javispedro looks up FastSMS23:34
rsc_javispedro: it is an application for write sms using something like T923:35
MohammadAGT9 sms app23:35
javispedro... as I thought, wrong answer then23:35
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javispedrothis is probably hard23:35
rsc_eheh...nice news23:35
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javispedrodidn't someone do a vertical input method?23:36
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rsc_yes...but only changing layout of virtual kb23:36
rsc_(I think)23:36
rsc_no code is executed23:37
javispedrona, existing vkb doesn't do portrait23:37
javispedroi'm quite sure I even saw the screenshot23:37
javispedrothat is some boringwork but not terribly hard23:37
Venemothere's already a "portrait keyboard" in devel23:37
javispedroso, just merge it and FastSMS and ... instant win.23:38
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javispedrota Venemo23:38
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rsc_yes Venemo, I saw it and took a look to code...23:38
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rsc_but it seems to be something different...but perhaps I'm wronging23:39
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rsc_in postinstall of "portrait keyboard" there are:23:45
rsc_./usr/bin/gconftool-2 -st string /apps/osso/inputmethod/default-plugins/finger hildon_im_onehand_fkb23:45
rsc_./usr/bin/gconftool-2 -st string /apps/osso/inputmethod/default-plugins/stylus hildon_im_onehand_fkb23:45
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rsc_thank you guys...perhaps you light the right way for solve my problem :)23:55
MohammadAGcan someone guess the size of the font used in the media player start screen?23:55
MohammadAG(the size of "Music" "Videos" etc...)23:55
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