IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2010-11-02

Maceri wonder if meego works on the n900 yet00:00
KaffeeJunky123I got my n900 last week and I imedietly flashed it with pr1.300:00
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KaffeeJunky123works good so faar00:00
PaulFertserKaffeeJunky123: did you immediately install notmynokia after that?00:00
Macerstupid m key seems to always get in the way :)00:00
Maceri should check up on meego00:00
KaffeeJunky123PaulFertser: nope, is that an application to erase the previous owners data?00:01
Maceri still want a profile desktop00:01
AranelPaulFertser: well, I thought Maemo 4 community is already dead after N900 release, but It seems like It's not. surprised :)00:02
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PaulFertserKaffeeJunky123: no, that's an application to somewhat rectify the evil move by the shitheads at nokia who decided privacy of their users is not something they need to care about:
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KaffeeJunky123so my mobiles number is registered with nokia...00:04
chem|stKaffeeJunky123: yep00:05
chem|stnice move with pr1.200:06
nox-yeah /me got a text message when the 1.3 update was avaliabe00:06
KaffeeJunky123what do they do with those numbers?00:06
nox-text ppl about updates?00:07
soltysstill no pr1.3 for UK-generic ?00:07
secyritasi have somehow avoided my nokia o.O00:07
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secyritasno idea how but i'm not registered and had n900 since pr1.000:08
KaffeeJunky123ofc you didn't subscribe00:09
KaffeeJunky123I didn't subscribe either00:09
KaffeeJunky123you just get a small notification about it00:09
KaffeeJunky123and this notification is an sms00:09
KaffeeJunky123so they do have your phone number :X00:10
Aranelwell, I didnt get that message about 1.3 update, and I didnt get any notification at all.00:10
secyritassame here00:10
Aranelmaybe they failed to send it to me, or sth wrong with my GSM carrier :)00:10
chem|stsoltys: just because of some freaking law you island ppl have you are in need specialties... flash global version for g. sake00:10
soltyschem|st: I'm not from UK only my n900 comes frome there ;)00:11
nox-what law?00:11
chem|stsoltys: why didn't you reflash then?00:11
Aranelwhy Nokia always giving updates for UK late? I remember they did the same thing when PR1.2 arrived.00:11
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chem|stnox-: no idea but there is no other reason than law to make different fw versions00:12
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andaxAranel: Maybe the sms was catched by your spam filter00:12
KaffeeJunky123why don't you flash using your computer?00:12
soltyschem|st: I don't have time for it.. and maybe some day there will be update ;)00:12
nidOAranel: because nokia uk are shit/crap/nonexistant/take your pick00:12
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Aranelandax: I don't have a spam filter for SMS messaging.00:13
chem|stsoltys: without more interaction than: start flashing, start recovering backup and a few taps a total of 10 minutes of your time00:14
Aranelwell I wonder what is different on UK version anyway, It's the same N900 with same bugs and features, what makes UK ones different?00:14
nidOin terms of functionality, nothing00:14
KaffeeJunky123maybe you'll get a free pair of rubber boots with the UK version ;)00:15
chem|stAranel: different fm frequencies? wifi channels? gsm transmitter power?00:15
SpeedEvilThe UK version comes in a protective case made from a heinz baked bean can.00:16
chem|stAranel: the last one would need another firmware for the gsm/gps module00:16
chem|stSpeedEvil: with biohazard in green letters sprayed00:17
chem|stanyone familiar with pulseaudio rtp sink?00:17
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Aranelyeah but those frequencies,channels and gsm transmitter power is not changing on every update.00:17
andaxAranel: i only need a sms spam filter to shut up nokias annoying sms stuff00:17
Aranelandax: lol you can unsubscribe from it cant you?00:18
KaffeeJunky123but they'll make random prank calls anyways00:19
chem|stAranel: yet all but pr1.1.1 have updated drivers and firmwares of most chips00:19
andaxno i cant and my phone provider cant block it because nokia somehow sends them without sender numbersen00:19
KaffeeJunky123"Hello, so you bought a nokia phone, do you happen do be in need of a pair of rubber boots?"00:19
KaffeeJunky123something like that prolly00:19
KaffeeJunky123Nokia rubber boots00:20
KaffeeJunky123we all know them00:20
KaffeeJunky123I guess you guys got a pair too, right?00:20
KaffeeJunky123everyone should have some00:21
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Aranelandax: I'm pretty sure you can. from My Nokia applet on Settings? It will cost you another SMS, It worths :)00:22
andaxrubber boots could shield your feets from heavy electromagnetic fields :)00:22
andax...i guess00:23
PaulFertserIt's ironic how you find privacy breach funny instead of offensing :|00:23
SpeedEvilRubber boots do not shield from EM.00:23
SpeedEvilThey are transparent.00:24
Aranelyou will get used to it. Nokia does it, Apple does it, Google does it.00:25
andaxAranel: i deleted my account but they still send me weekly n00b hints via SMS which are frightening me00:25
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Aranelandax: :| well, your last option is calling them and threatening them with a lawsuit. I bet It will work.00:26
* Aranel is lucky Nokia Turkey doesn't even care about him a little bit to send spam crap.00:28
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sh0gunk0_Hello everyone00:28
sh0gunk0_please, is there ovi maps 3 already available for Maemo 5?00:28
sh0gunk0_I remember that Nokia promised it after releasing N90000:29
andaxhi sh0gunk0_00:29
nidOgot a link to that piece of fiction?00:29
tripzeromaemo... 6?00:29
sh0gunk0_so only ovi 1 currently?00:30
sh0gunk0_but ovi maps 1 is piece of crap00:30
tripzeroyeah, whatever is available00:30
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tripzeroyeah, ovi maps 1 is nothing special00:30
nidOovi maps for symbian and ovi maps for maemo dont use the same versioning.00:30
Aranelafaik It's a different app from Symbian one.00:30
sh0gunk0_so ovi for maemo 5 is still being updated?00:31
sh0gunk0_ovi maps *00:31
tripzeronot in a while iirc00:31
tripzeromaybe bug fixes,00:31
tripzeroi haven't seen a new version00:31
sh0gunk0_does it have search for places?00:31
Aranelhere's a better option: Sygic.00:32
sh0gunk0_walk GPS navigation?00:32
tripzeroSygic is better...00:32
Aranelit's only great function is, It doesn't suck. unlike the official one.00:32
tripzerobut that's a pretty low bar00:32
andaxAranel++ :-)00:32
Aranel.. can I use this minute of silence to post nonsense trolling? :P Here:
Aranelmaybe It will make you smile, and forget about the maps app.00:34
AranelIt makes me angry anyway.00:35
kerio <- much better song00:35
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tripzeroright, better "song"00:37
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nox-`This video contains content from Muyap and Sony Music Entertainment. It is not available in your country.'00:37
nox-stupid geoblocking :(00:37
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AranelDo I have to make an icon for my package to push it to Extras?00:41
andaxAranel: how do i pass such URL from xchat to zoutube? "!zoutube %s"? unfortunately i cant try via console because the console cant find zoutube00:41
Araneldunno :| I don't use zoutube00:41
nox-zoutube works for anyone?00:42
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Myrttijacekowski, DocScrutinizer: you can wait until cows come home, but I aint touching no wikipages ;-)00:43
jacekowskiMyrtti: you said yesterday that you will00:44
Myrttiand while you're waiting (do remember to breathe!) I'm going to bed00:44
Myrttijacekowski: the hell I did00:44
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Myrttigood night00:44
jacekowskiMyrtti: do you want me to quote it?00:44
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: can you hit him with a stick?00:44
Aranelnox-: It looks like working ok for me.00:44
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* nox- tries again00:45
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* nox- can tap on `play' as much as i want and nothing happens00:47
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pupnikadam geiss is one of my minor heroes  "Generating Complex Procedural Terrains Using the GPU" Download Demo & Source Code
nox-`download' too00:48
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CreteilHi all00:48
Creteilmanaged to build pingus, but the optification doesn't seem to work :-(00:49
Creteilany help ?00:49
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Aranelnox-: oops, It's not working. It's unresponsive after pressing Play or Download.00:51
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andaxi fired up xplanet, it runs but doesnt appear correctly. It only appears for a few milliseconds while closing a window.00:55
Aranelwhere should I put the .desktop file to make it show on main menu?00:55
Macerah well. i'm installing 1.3 now00:55
Macerdoesn't look like there was much done to it00:56
Macerbut i suppose an update is an update00:56
andaxSome ideas how xplanet it can be set to be on real desktop background?00:56
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sh0gunk0_"If you’re a Nokia N900 user, which runs Maemo 5 rather than Symbian, thankfully support is on its way."01:05
jacekowskithat's not official nokia statement01:05
sh0gunk0_January 22, 201001:06
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lardman|homeevening all01:12
KaffeeJunky123is meego worth trying it yet?01:14
* lardman|home wonders how to set a PythonQt stdout redirect class01:14
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pupnikdon't ever sleep01:16
pupnikyou wake up in a different universe01:16
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jacekowskii went to sleep two days ago01:17
jacekowskiand woke up in different time zone01:17
lardman|homeI went to sleep last night and ended up at the start of a working week01:17
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jacekowskigood night01:17
lardman|homenight jacekowski01:17
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sh0gunk0_have Nokia already implemented sim toolkit support in newer Maemo versions?01:19
sh0gunk0_I used N900 in eraly version and it didn't have it01:19
lardman|homenot that I know of01:19
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sh0gunk0_that a really simple basic GSM function01:19
sh0gunk0_whats the problem01:19
lardman|homewhat do you want to be able to do?01:20
nox-pupnik, you listen to shows too? :)01:20
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sh0gunk0_receive encrypted messages from my bank account01:20
sh0gunk0_sim toolkit required01:20
sh0gunk0_it is a function which has been available on very very old Nokia phones01:21
lardman|homehmm, I wonder if telepathy could help you there, as it handles the sms stuff01:21
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pupniknox-: what is that01:22
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pupnikn900s at 350 euro are pretty darn tempting01:22
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nox-pupnik, a radio show thats kinda left over from old days, he's a storyteller...01:23
pupnikty nox- is it playing now?01:23
sh0gunk0_I bought 5 months old N900 for 180 brittish pounds today. Very good condition, valid warranty receipt, everything included, box accessories etc.01:23
nox-no, only sundays 2300cet01:23
pupnikvery nice sh0gunk0_01:23
nox-radio bremen eins01:23
nox-(well show starts at 2200 but the stories start at 2305)01:24
sh0gunk0_only usb input is somehow broken, as on lots of N900 happens01:24
sh0gunk0_but since I have the receipt with valid IMEI etc. I can have free repair in Nokia service01:24
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sh0gunk0_was it a good deal?01:27
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chem|stanyone an idea how to connect pulse to a rtp/multicast?01:30
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andaxsh0gunk0: yeah, usb is somewhat broken here too, and the backlight sometimes flickers01:32
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lardman|homenight chaps01:34
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lolcatCan the N900 soon call with ubuntu mobile?01:35
andaxsh0gunk0: I think you made a good deal01:35
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DocScrutinizersh0gunk0_: STK/SAT is all but simple. In fact it's even more difficult to implement in smartphones than on "very old phones". STK by definition needs full control over the whole MMI, and full control means the SIM "directly" controls display in LCD and input from kbd/ts. Friggin hard to implement in a Application-Proceesor + dedicated modem with own OS system architecture01:36
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valdynlolcat: since they can use the meego stack it should be trivial, we I have no idea what they are doing01:36
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DocScrutinizerSIM is connected to modem processor only, and LCD is connected to AppProcessor only01:37
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lolcatvaldyn: Meego?01:37
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valdynlolcat: yes?01:37
lolcatMeego stack*01:37
valdynlolcat: im saying that ubuntu mobile can use whatever meego uses, if they want to. Meego already has calling support.01:38
lolcatReally? So meego is more open-source than maemo?01:39
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valdynlolcat: yes01:39
lolcatIs it bether?01:40
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valdynlolcat: meego is a free software project. It's not in a state that makes it suitable for end users, but you can install it.01:41
lolcatSo Ubuntu mobile is bether?01:41
valdynlolcat: i have no idea01:42
valdynlolcat: looks to me that ubuntu mobile is for tablets, not phones01:42
lolcatCan I run maemo on my desktop?01:43
* lolcat misses his N90001:43
valdynlolcat: yes, but why would you do that?01:43
lolcatSo i can see the deskto01:44
lolcatWhile they are fixing my phone01:44
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tripzerololcat, they have screenshots available for that01:46
lolcatCould I run maemo on a 600mhz duron?01:49
lolcatIf I just get a simcard reader, I can have an awesome phone01:50
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tripzerololcat, you'd be better off with mer probably01:55
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tripzerosince maemo consists of a lot of closed components01:55
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pupnikhave n900's gone out of production yet?02:06
pupniki.e. when will they run out in the regular channels?02:06
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pupniknokia store still sellin em02:09
pupnikhmm, ordering 999 costs 423,576 euro02:10
SpeedEvilDo you get any free styli?02:10
pupnikfree shipping02:13
DocScrutinizerdamn, you busted their stock. It didn't even give me 10 :-P not a single one02:15
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* SpeedEvil imagines a 120" screen made from a wall of n900s.02:17
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: I figured this to be a nice use for the remaining FR on stock :-D02:19
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DocScrutinizeralso, beowulf :-D02:19
SpeedEvilA beowulf cluster rendering a beowulf movie.02:20
DocScrutinizerand displaying it on a 120" screen made of quite some tiles02:20
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DocScrutinizer~ (120 / 3.9) ** 202:22
nox-is there already a successor if they no longer ship it?02:23
DocScrutinizerif they do, then there's a successor02:23
nox-ok :)02:24
nox-btw do you know if kexec is supposed to work in madde qemu?02:25
nox-or how you'd swap a kernel there?02:26
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ebzzry_Hi! Has anyone experienced issues with Swappolube on PR 1.3?02:29
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pupnikhere's an idea for Nokia: ship smartphones with user-customizable keyboards.  figure out a way to mfgr phones with exactly the symbols people want :P02:41
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Termanagood morning02:42
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ColdFyrepr 1.4 is out!02:52
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chem|st~slap ColdFyre02:54
* infobot slaps ColdFyre, keep your grubby fingers to yourself!02:54
Termana~lart ColdFyre02:54
* infobot gives ColdFyre an extra strength ACME sleeping pill, sending ColdFyre to sleep for 150 years, and awakening to seven strange dwarfs and a large apple02:54
infobotPR1.4 has always been a ban'able subject02:54
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Gorrothgot the maemo 5 sdk installed :)03:28
Gorrothnow, i just need to read the docs and see if i can't build and package squid03:28
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nox-ok looks like kernel-power doesnt work in madde qemu :)03:50
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Gorrothi have come to the decision that i may never be able to go to meego04:00
Gorrothit uses RPMs04:00
Gorrothi hate the tools associated with those04:00
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johnxGorroth, ok. we'll miss you04:01
Gorrothwhy?  maemo is right here04:01
johnxwell, when all of us are using meego ...04:02
johnxnot right away of course :)04:02
Gorrothcan't they just get DEBs and make the world a better place? :)04:02
* SpeedEvil stabs Gorroth in the face.04:02
Gorrothgo die in a fire04:02
SpeedEvilIf 0.01% of users care abou thte packaging, you've _utterly_ failed as a distro.04:03
SpeedEvilmeego users should never care about that sort of stuff.04:03
johnxyay! distro flamewars in an already small niche community04:03
SpeedEvilSorry - the package manager threads are completely fucking insane.04:03
GorrothSpeedEvil: it sounds like you have way more of a problem with this conversation than we do04:04
Gorrothsee a therapist04:04
pwnguinSpeedEvil: what percentage of maemo users do you think have considered writing and packaging their own software?04:05
johnxGorroth, there's no constructive conversation that can be had on this topic, and yes all of us are tired of it. SpeedEvil expresses it differently than me, but I think we feel about the same about it04:05
pwnguini mean, obviously maemo failed04:05
pwnguineven by your own standards04:05
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johnxpwnguin, the reason maemo failed was that there wasn't enough orange04:09
johnxmore orange = more better04:09
SpeedEvilpwnguin: I'm unsure.04:09
SpeedEvilpwnguin: I suspect way under .1%04:09
Gorrothi'm one thinking about making a package.  i'm trying to get a squid package made04:09
SpeedEvilThere is however a difference between that, and the packaging in principle.04:09
SpeedEvilIn that with the right setup, the package can be largely automatically created - in whatever format04:10
pwnguinso your solution is some form of meta packaging format04:10
SpeedEvilThat this doesn't happen is a problem not inherently with the package format, but with the tools.04:10
pwnguinits a problem with namespaces04:10
Gorrothpackage managers should be setup to make users happy first and developers happy second.  honestly, DEBs make developers happier than RPMs, imo, and both do the same for the end-user04:10
Gorrothwell, except the RPM-based tools seem to take forever and a day to find a damn package04:11
SpeedEvilIf you're a developer - I have slightly more sympathy.04:11
Gorrothwhich makes users unhappy04:11
pwnguinive never gotten a straight answer from the packagekit people on how it will actually solve problems04:11
SpeedEvilbut way too many users raise this as if it matters.04:11
johnxGorroth, there's an equal argument on DEB vs RPM for people writing packages04:11
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SpeedEvilWhen if it's managed right - the user should never need to care.04:12
johnxbut seriously, let's just agree to disagree, because *nothing* anyone says here will convince anyone else04:12
pwnguinare there any rpm based distros besides moblin targgeting arm?04:13
johnxfedora comes to mind04:13
johnxnot sure if their ARM port is "official" but ... meh04:13
pwnguinobviously this doesnt matter because the real meego phone will be atom based ;004:14
johnxonly time will tell04:14
Gorrothjohnx: i beg to differ on convincing people otherwise.  if that was the case, we wouldn't have all the package managers in the first place04:14
pwnguinGorroth: so you can be convinced otherwise?04:15
Gorrothstraw man argument there04:15
Gorrothit is04:15
pwnguinits his point04:15
pwnguinyou want a debate04:15
Gorrothno, it's a straw man04:16
Gorrothif you can find one person that can't be convinced, you will think you've won, but it's a logical fallacy04:16
johnxthe fact that we have multiple package managers is pretty much the perfect example that it's hard to change people to your point of view about this sort of thing04:16
pwnguinthats not a straw man04:16
Gorrothit is04:16
SpeedEvilpkgtool ftw.04:16
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pwnguinthe point is, the set of people paying attention to this channel have entrenched positions from which nobody will be lured out of04:17
pwnguintherefore, the argument is fruitless and we should focus on important things04:17
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pwnguinlike, whether anyone is using connecting to zimbra with n90004:17
TermanaAll I have to say is04:17 how to add more orange to meego, thus making it succeed more betterer than maemo did04:17
TermanaGentoo on N900 FTW!04:17
Gorrothewwwww, gentoooo04:17
johnxisn't there like a channel for starting distro flamewars?04:18
TermanaYou guys can play with your debs and rpms, I'll build from source and forget about you :p04:18
pwnguinsurely there's multiple ebuild formats04:18
Gorrothi heard there is just one: broken04:18
SpeedEvilI recently came up with a fairly convincing argument for why you can bypass GPL with on-device compilation if you have a trusted computing platform.04:19
SpeedEvilShip all your source as an encrypted tarball, and build only when it arrives at customer.04:19
pwnguinsorta like ubuntu+nvidia04:20
pwnguinbut with palladium04:20
TermanaGorroth, Use Harmattan when it comes. Then you have the best of both worlds (for a little while at least) - MeeGo and DEBs04:20
pwnguinso how awesome is pr 1.3?04:20
johnxSpeedEvil, there's some language in the GPL about providing the source in way that most people expect it or something of that nature04:21
johnxpwnguin, it's better than falling down some stairs04:21
SpeedEviljohnx: which doesn't kick in04:21
Termanapwnguin, IT IS REALLY... not awesome.04:21
TermanaDon't leave your N900 on the charger over night04:21
SpeedEviljohnx: by not distributing binary, but an encrypted source archive in the format that you recieved it - most of the nasty bits of the GPL go away.04:21
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Termana(with pr1.3)04:22
SpeedEvilAs the 'distributing binary' bits never kick in.04:22
pwnguinthe feature set isn't very compelling04:22
pwnguinnew libraries04:22
GorrothTermana: yeah, i'm planning on using it04:22
pwnguinfull ovi bs support04:22
GorrothTermana: i'm gonna keep hope alive!04:22
SpeedEvilOvi support! OMG04:22
nox-kfgles2 - anyone know whats up with that?  kernel-power seems to be missing it?04:22
TermanaWho cares about Ovi? :p04:22
Gorrothpwnguin: yeah, i didn't notice any difference with pr1.3.04:23
pwnguinTermana: nokia04:23
pwnguinespecially the ovi developers04:23
Gorrothi don't.  it's too hard to use04:23
Gorroththey need something slick and native like the iOS app store04:23
Termanapwnguin, you should probably upgrade to 1.3 anyway, especially if you're considering dual booting MeeGo04:23
Termanapwnguin, yeah them and.... that's all :p04:24
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pwnguini tried the netbook meego and was underwhelmed04:24
pwnguinthe only thing i'd possibly care about is banshee ratings sync04:24
pwnguinand from what i can tell, that's not gonna happen04:24
Gorrothoh a netbook, i'd probably just go with ubuntu and unity04:25
Gorroththat's me though04:25
Termanapwnguin, honestly, I don't give to shits about netbook meego. I only care about ARM/Handset04:25
pwnguinright, but that barely booted last i checked04:25
Termanapwnguin, you checked a long time ago then04:26
Termanapwnguin, but it's still not everyday ready just yet04:26
Termanapwnguin, it fully boots, it can make phone calls and SMSes, wifi works etc.04:26
pwnguinwhat about charging?04:26
TermanaAFAIK, yes04:26
TermanaUnless it's broke in/just before the 1.1 build04:27
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Gorrothdoes the latest meego handset edition have skype?04:28
TermanaGorroth, no04:28
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pwnguinhow do you even dual boot with such a tiny flash chip?04:28
Termanapwnguin, SD card04:29
pwnguini thought that was the death by a thousand latencies04:29
johnxnot with a class 6 and aggressive cache settings04:29
Termana(or eMMC but that's not the officially supported way, and I wouldn't recommend it anyway, plus you would screw up your Maemo install)04:29
Gorrothnyhacker hackday is coming up04:29
pwnguinhavent bought an SD card in a while04:29
Gorroth3 weeks away04:29
Gorrothme either04:30
Gorrothmine is in my nexus one now04:30
Termanawell, honestly it doesn't work that bad on a Class 2 card, just saying04:30
pwnguinwhats this about charging though? joke?04:30
Termanapwnguin, no?04:31
pwnguin Termana> Don't leave your N900 on the charger over night04:31
Termanapwnguin, oh right for PR1.304:31
pwnguintrue or false?04:31
pwnguinso i can dual boot an incomplete os, if i buy another fast SD Card04:32
pwnguinand melt the thing when it runs out of battery04:32
TermanaIf you read through the #maemo logs you'll see some testing has been done. And PR1.3 is not power saving as well as 1.2 when connected to the wallwart charger. So you will potentially wear your N900's CPU out faster (though if you're an overclocker you obviously don't give a shit about this anyway) and potentially wear the battery lifespan down faster04:33
Termanapwnguin, you have just completely confused two things04:34
Termanapwnguin, the don't leave it on the charger over night has nothing to do with MeeGo04:34
pwnguinthey're both PR1.3 related04:34
TermanaNo they are not04:35
ebzzry_Guys, who among you here use the N900 regularly, not overclocked?04:35
Gorrothwho the hell overclocks and n900?04:35
Gorrothwith it's shit battery04:35
Termanaebzzry_, before mine got sent to a water grave, I did. And my next N900 won't be overclocked either04:35
pwnguinq3a players?04:35
Gorrothwho plays q3a seriously on their phone?04:35
ebzzry_With autoaim?04:36
ebzzry_pwnguin: With PR 1.3?04:36
Gorrothmaybe autoaim04:36
Gorrothi just couldn't imagine the experience being good04:36
pwnguinebzzry_: i dont overclock, and am considering the upgrade to pr1.304:36
Gorrothebzzry_: i use the n900, but not overclocked, and only on an occasional basis04:37
Gorrothunless i get squid working04:37
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SpeedEvilwhy squid?04:37
Gorrothpersonal reasons04:37
pwnguinobviously so it functions as a snoopable wifi AP04:38
SpeedEvilAh. With built in side-jacking.04:38
Gorrothif what pwnguin says is as true as it sounds, i don't know anything about that04:38
DocScrutinizerWUT? Schwarzenegger semi-legalized pot?04:38
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TermanaDocScrutinizer, link?04:38
DocScrutinizerTV :-)04:39
SpeedEvilnot yet04:39
SpeedEvilThere is a vote tomorrow04:39
TermanaDocScrutinizer, ;) ah. You could stream it to me? :p04:39
SpeedEviland he's not in favour04:39
DocScrutinizeryeah, probably that's why he's going to lose04:39
TermanaSpeedEvil, oh right. Isn't that like Prop 8 or something?04:39
pwnguinwe can rename sacremento new amsterdam04:39
Gorrothi hope prop 19 passes04:39
Gorrothif it does, i'm going to visit CA04:39
Termana19 rather04:40
Gorrothsuddenly, CA will realize that its tax problems disappear when it gets lots of visitors04:40
Termana8 is about gay marriages (or rather, against them)04:40
ieatlintoh dear god... i can't even get away from the prop19 people here04:42
DocScrutinizerDamn, who'd think the country of unlimited madness would same time sentence people to do a life in prison for 3 times found with a joint, and legalize canabis just some 100 miles further04:42 also isnt that far from .de...04:43
ieatlintDocScrutinizer: pot is still illegal in california04:43
ieatlintit is no longer a criminal offense, however -- meaning you don't get a trial, you just get a fine04:43
DocScrutinizerno, it isn't. You need a 10 min visit at a doctor to get a "recommendation"04:43
ieatlintpff.... 10min? nah, less time than that04:44
Gorrothif pot is legalized, will the people in prisons for smoking a fatty still stay in prison because it was illegal when they did it?04:44
ieatlintthe time it takes to get a medical marijuana prescription depends on how complicated it is to spell your name04:44
DocScrutinizerthen buy officially04:44
Gorrothieatlint: fines are based on criminal law.  you are entitled to a trial if you want one04:44
ieatlintGorroth: not here you aren't04:45
ieatlintthey're based on civil law04:45
ieatlintyou don't go to a criminal court04:45
DocScrutinizertomorrow they are just about to go without that "recommendation"04:45
Gorrothyou are still entitled to a trial04:45
Gorrothyou can just not pay04:45
ieatlintit's on par with a speeding ticket04:45
Gorrothspeeding tickets are criminal offenses04:45
ieatlintyeah, try not paying a speeding ticket :)04:45
Gorrothyou should read up on your laws04:45
ieatlintit's called an infraction in CA law04:45
Gorrothwhich is a criminal infraction04:46
pwnguinim pretty sure the definition of criminal vs civil is who shows up to court04:46
ieatlintit's treated as a civil offence04:46
pwnguinie, your neighbor doesnt sue you for speeding04:46
nox-FATAL: Module kfgles2 not found.04:46
ieatlintand it's the same as 1oz of pot possession now04:46
Gorrothokay, well, you try getting a few traffic tickets and see what happens to your driver's license for all those "civil offenses" that are actually criminal offenses04:47
pwnguinbut im no lawyer, with no law degree, and no bar exam under my belt04:47
* DocScrutinizer wonders what all those canabis consumers that do their time in jail will think when looking outside and see all those other people walk by with joints in their hands04:47
ieatlintthe revocation of a driver licence has nothing to do with paying tickets04:47
ieatlintit's based on a point system04:47
pwnguinDocScrutinizer: presumably a governor would issue a blanket pardon04:48
Gorrotha point system written in criminal law04:48
Gorrothyou really should learn your basic laws04:48
ieatlintanyway, feel free to try and ask for a trial by jury... you know, because you're guaranteed that for all criminal charges against you04:48
Gorrothyou have the right to a trial by jury or judge04:48
Gorrothand you are protected by the 5th amendment04:48
Gorrothit is definitely a criminal offense04:49
Gorrothand the officer has the right to arrest you for it04:49
ieatlintthe 5th amendment doesn't apply to california courts man :P04:49
ieatlintonly federal04:49
ieatlintparts of it are replicated in state law04:49
ieatlintsuch as right not to incriminate yourself04:49
Gorroththe 5th amendment applies to ANY criminal proceeding04:50
ieatlint... in federal court04:50
Gorrothin any court04:50
Gorrothyou better hope you never get arrested.  the cops are going to talk you out of your rights04:50
ieatlintheh, you're woefully misinformed04:51
ieatlintsorry, i'm basing my views on what a friend who passed the bar in california has told me, what i know from friends who have gotten infractions, and what the associated press reports04:51
Gorrothno, you're honestly not very smart with your rights04:51
TermanaI can only comment on Australia, but here it is a criminal offence. Civil offences are torts against another civilian. Criminal offences are against Her Majesty, The Queen of England II (Regina)/Governor-General/State.04:51
DocScrutinizerisn't that the 1. § in american right: "you don't have to be informed" ?04:52
ieatlintGorroth: case in point.. if i go to small claims court and sue you for $50, are you entitled to a jury?04:52
Gorrothieatlint: that is a civil matter04:52
Gorrothyou are damn confused04:53
ieatlintGorroth: is that a yes or no?04:53
Gorrothit is irrelevant04:53
Gorrothit is a civil matter04:53
ieatlintno, it's a convenient example to show that california law is sovereign from federal law04:54
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pwnguinwell, the 14th amendment complicates that04:54
Gorrothno, sorry, you are trying to quote the 10th amendment, but that is wrong04:54
DocScrutinizercriminal is individual sued by authority, civil is individual vs individual (though sometimes virtual entity)04:54
ieatlintGorroth: actually i'm referencing the 7th04:55
Gorroththe US Constitution stands above state law04:55
Gorrothand your 5th amendment applies to any criminal proceeding04:55
ieatlintit stands above state law, yes, but it is not enforceable in a state court04:55
Gorrothit absolutely is04:55
ieatlintappeals to it are done in federal court04:55
nox-anyway here's how to watch the madde qemu boot:  (cd /home/maemo/.madde/0.6.72/runtimes/rx51-fremantle-pr12 && LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/home/maemo/.madde/0.6.72/madlib DISPLAY=:0.0 ~/.madde/0.6.72/madlib/qemu-system-arm-0.12.50-madde3 -M n900 -mtdblock RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.19-1.nand -sd RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.19-1.emmc -clock unix -net nic -net user,hostfwd=tcp:,hostfwd=tcp:,hostfwd=tcp: -serial04:55
pwnguinieatlint: how's the market for lawyers right now?04:56
Gorrothif you think a state court can imprison you because you didn't answer a few questions in a criminal court, you are just wrong04:56
ieatlintGorroth: the state independently guarantees the right to not incriminate yourself04:56
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pwnguin"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. "04:56
DocScrutinizerin a country where every deputy *IS* the law, the whole dispute is rather moot04:56
Gorrothieatlint: the state may have additionaly reinforced that, but it's for show.  the US Constitution is what really grants you your protection in this matter04:57
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ieatlintGorroth: well, i'm oddly going to go with what i've seen, and what a friend who has passed the bar has explicitly told me04:58
TermanaDocScrutinizer, sir I have something to tell you04:58
TermanaDocScrutinizer, I... AM... THE LAW04:59
Gorrothieatlint: okay.  well, if it comes to you and me in a criminal court case, and my not answering questions is what saves me, i'll gladly plead the 5th.  you, however, can spout off whatever you like04:59
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ieatlintGorroth: there's no reason to put words in my mouth to service disinformation05:00
Gorrothieatlint: btw,
ieatlinti explicitly said that the right to not incriminate yourself in a court of law is preserved in CA law05:00
Gorrothyes, it may be additionally held, but even if it wasn't, it doesn't mean jack05:00
ieatlint5th amendment doesn't apply to being questioned by the police...05:00
ieatlintit's not a court of law05:00
Gorroththey could have a law that says the opposite, but it doesn't mean jack05:00
Gorroth5th amendment most certainly does apply to police officer interrogations05:01
Gorrothyou are stupid05:01
Gorrothand that is all05:01
pwnguinanyways, regarding offenses made legal05:01
pwnguinthere was a guy in jail in georgia05:01
pwnguinfor statuatory rape05:02
pwnguinduring his sentence the law was changed and he'd be a free man, but there was a shitstorm about the governor not pardoning this person05:02
Termanaieatlint, Gorroth: Gorroth is correct. Their is a reason it is the United States. Each state has enter into an agreement of the United States Constitution. The state court cannot prosecute you for rights granted to you by the Constitution and by extension the Federal laws allowed to be provisioned under the Constitution.05:02
ieatlintlaw is far more complicated than that :P05:03
TermanaThe Hierarchy is simple, Constitution, Federal law, State Law, County Law.05:03
pwnguinbut seriously05:03
pwnguinwho would opt for a trial05:03
GorrothTermana: well, the 10th amendment allows states to override federal law if the constitution didn't grant the power to the feds05:04
pwnguinthe 9th and 10th are mostly useless05:04
TermanaGorroth, you're possibly (probably) correct on that.05:04
pwnguinjust ask scalia05:05
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* DocScrutinizer puts a mark on his trolling calendar05:06
TermanaAlso, just because the Federal court has Appellate jurisdiction, doesn't change the law you are to be prosecuted under05:06
TermanaAs ieatlint has suggested (that this was the case)05:06
ieatlintGorroth: back to the original issue,
TermanaIt doesn't matter what court you are in, you are being prosecuted under the same law05:06
ieatlintfirst paragraph sums it up05:06
ieatlintTermana: not at all true05:07
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ieatlinta california court cannot enforce federal laws, nor can a federal court enforce a state law05:07
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ieatlintthis is why we have federal and state courthouses all over05:07
DocScrutinizercalifornia court has to*obey* fed law05:07
pwnguinin as much as the 14th amendment forces their hand05:08
ieatlintno, although the constitution does require that each state set up a system of justice based on the federal system05:08
Termanaieatlint, the different courts may have different original jurisdiction that does not mean that a lower court can prosecute in their own way05:08
pwnguinTermana: orly?05:09
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TermanaYes, really.05:09
ieatlintfederal and state courts are separate hierarchies05:09
ieatlintthe california state supreme court cannot have its ruling appealed to the us supreme court, for instance05:09
ieatlintnor vise-versa05:10
pwnguinim trying to remember which northeastern state has untrained country judges05:10
DocScrutinizerexcept if CA supreme ruling is based on laws that are in conflict with fed05:10
ieatlintDocScrutinizer: special case, but yes05:11
Termanaieatlint, special case? It's exactly what we're discussing05:11
luke-jrieatlint: hey05:11
ieatlinthow so?05:11
Termanaieatlint, a state trying to uphold a law which is in conflict with federal law/courts or the constitution05:12
ieatlintyes, which is why things like prop19 will immediately face legal challenges05:12
TermanaSo now you're agreeing with my original statement. You are prosecuted under the same laws no matter what court you are in.05:13
pwnguinhow about this05:14
pwnguinnobody smoke until the smoke clears on the subject ;)05:14
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ieatlintTermana: no, not at all05:14
TermanaBecause a state court cannot prosecute you if the federal courts/law or constitution is in direct conflict on the matter05:14
TermanaA federal court cannot prosecute you if it is in violation of the constitution.05:15
luke-jrTermana: prove it.05:15
ieatlintif prop19 passes, a local state court cannot say "fuck 19, federal law says it's illegal, so we're charging you"05:15
Termanaieatlint, good luck with the appeal on that.05:15
TermanaThey'll be charged05:15
ieatlintnot by state courts05:15
luke-jrI have personally witnessed state courts infringe on one's US Constitution rights05:16
ieatlinthell, as the law stands right now, a state criminal court cannot charge me for 1oz or less of pot05:16
DocScrutinizerif prop19 was against fed legislation, then no way it ever made it such far05:16
Termanaluke-jr, ok sorry I should be more clear. A state court can, but that doesn't mean it will last05:16
luke-jrTermana: the state's supreme court ruled that the Constitution doesn't apply to all cases.05:16
ieatlintDocScrutinizer: it is, and the US attorney general has said he will go after people who violate federal drug laws05:16
nox-isnt it often more about who has more money to spend on lawyers etc?05:17
ieatlintnox-: always, yes05:17
ieatlint"the colour of american justice is green"05:17
luke-jrTermana: specifically, that cases involving children's "well-being" void the Constitutional rights05:17
luke-jrfor the sake of the children05:18
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Gorrothieatlint: prop 19 is a clear-cut 10th amendment issue.  the feds will lose05:19
ieatlintGorroth: good luck there05:19
DocScrutinizerdamn, when I ponder about it... SURE, USA is THE country to teach other nations about freedom and democracy and right05:19
luke-jrwhat about prop 0x19?05:19
Gorrothieatlint: also, any state can pass a law stating you cannot have tatoos.  upon entering the state, you could be arrested.  you'd win.05:19
ieatlintDocScrutinizer: lol05:19
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: democracy is retarded05:19
Gorrothieatlint: you are just completely ignorant about the law.  you should learn what you're talking about before entering a debate on it05:20
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Gorrothieatlint: i don't care what your "lawyer bar friend" said.  he probably was talking about something else or was a first-year that didn't know anything05:20
ieatlintGorroth: you've been misled :P05:20
Gorrothieatlint: i've read up on it and seen more case outcomes than you have, obviously05:20
ieatlintstates do make restrictions like that all the time05:20
ieatlinttry and bring a bunch of dildos to texas for instance05:20
Gorrothsure they do.  and then they get slammed if they step on the US Constitution05:21
ieatlintor hell -- try and bring some fruit into california in your car05:21
Gorrothhave you ever actually heard about supreme court rulrings?05:21
luke-jrGorroth: you assume people can tolerate a wait for an appeal05:21
Gorrothanyway, it's obvious you aren't open to learning the truth.  you wish to be dogmatic in your ignorance, and i can take no part in it05:21
Gorrothluke-jr: that is irrelevant05:21
luke-jrif you cannot appeal, it doesn't matter if they're doing stuff illegal05:21
ieatlintyou're going to be rudely awakened one day05:22
Gorrothluke-jr: that is beside the point05:22
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Gorrothieatlint: i'm sorry, but i'm not.  you will be when you let your rights get stomped.  it's people like you that are letting our freedoms erode05:23
luke-jrmy point is that in practice, the State is above the law.05:23
Gorrothand you disgust me05:23
ieatlintGorroth: you're grossly mistaken.. i'm extremely well informed of my rights, and impressively i'm still not an asshole to police officers05:23
Gorrothluke-jr: that isn't the case.  there are several counter-examples, but i don't wish to find them now05:23
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Gorrothluke-jr: for anyone willing, the option is there to fight, and people do05:24
ieatlinti live in this crazy area called the middle, where i'm not a fanatic, but i support the ACLU05:24
ieatlintand i've seen the legal system "work"05:24
luke-jrGorroth: sometimes the cost of fighting is greater than the cost of surrender05:24
luke-jreven if you win05:24
Gorrothieatlint: no, based on what you said, you will clearly let your rights be trampled.05:24
Gorrothhave fun with it, ieatlint05:24
ieatlintfanaticism in all its forms is disturbing to me05:25
Gorrothwhat does fanaticism have to do with this discussion of how the US legal system is setup05:25
ieatlintyour blinded by your biases, and spew hatred onto those who differ. you end up marginalising your beliefs in the eyes of most people05:25
luke-jrdo you decline to show ID when flying on airplanes?05:25
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Gorrothluke-jr: no, because you have no right to fly05:26
ieatlintyou lost any respect when you chose to attack me, and make a wild accusation05:26
luke-jrGorroth: so?05:26
luke-jrit's still optional.05:26
Gorrothit's not optional if you want on the plane, because you don't have the right to fly05:26
luke-jrit is optional. just tell them you opt not to show your ID.05:26
luke-jryou still get to fly.05:27
luke-jryou also get the full security pat-down05:27
Gorrothand they will kindly tell you you can't fly, because you have no right to fly05:27
ieatlintoh, and apologies to everyone else in here... i should've never said a word about anything so off topic, let alone carry it on uselessly for so long :P05:27
* luke-jr has actually flown without showing ID ☺05:27
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Gorrothah, yes, actually, that makess sense, luke-jr ; i do remember seeing someone do that in front of me05:27
Gorroththey just ask them more questions05:28
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Gorrothieatlint: yeah, it would've been best if you just learned that you aren't well-informed about how the legal system works and couldn't even tell the difference between a civil and criminal case05:28
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ieatlintGorroth: please refrain from further insults and let the issue rest05:29
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Gorrothieatlint: oh, you are telling me to stop now?  do you just like to get the last word in or something now?  it's just a fact you don't know case law well at all and clearly don't understand your rights.  that's all i am saying05:30
ieatlintGorroth: i'm pleading for sanity at this point, nothing more05:30
Gorrothokay, i will stop talking about it, safe in the sanity of knowing i'm right and you're wrong :)05:31
DocScrutinizerso seems I started it in some strange way, now I plead to have the last word on it. OT ALARM!05:31
ieatlintDocScrutinizer: :P05:32
ieatlinti apologised :)05:32
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Gorrothjust one last thing, ieatlint , read california penal code 15 and 1605:36
Gorrothokay, that's all05:36
ieatlintGorroth: dude, just drop it05:36
ieatlintmove on05:36
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Gorrothokay, i will.  i take it you won't read it then.  :-/05:37
DocScrutinizerGorroth: please take it elsewhere05:37
Gorrothalready been done taken :)  that was the last thing he needed to know :)05:38
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Termanawow, looks like I had to walk away before it got really messy.05:43
TermanaAnyway, something OT05:43
DocScrutinizerTermana: stfu and eat your rice :-P05:43
TermanaDocScrutinizer, did you say yesterday that the PR1.3 awake-on-charger issue was related to the rouge kernel activity05:44
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DocScrutinizerTermana: please rephrase05:44
TermanaDocScrutinizer, with regard to the PR1.3 issue how the N900 will stay awake and at higher frequencies when using a wallwart charger than on PR1.2, what exactly is causing it?05:45
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TermanaKernel? BME? Something else? etc.05:45
DocScrutinizersomething in kernel, as it also shows with 1.3 kernel on a 1.1.1 rootfs05:45
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TermanaDocScrutinizer, so switching back to a PR1.2 kernel should fix the issue? (assuming the slightly older kernel isn't for some reason incompatible with the new rootfs, radio etc.)05:47
nox-oh so just install kernel-power despite it still being for 1.2?05:48
DocScrutinizerif it fits and works05:48
nox-heh it does seem broken in madde qemu...05:48
nox-with 1.2 rootfs05:48
nox-FATAL: Module kfgles2 not found.05:48
nox-anyone willing to test? ;)05:49
nox-(could be qemu issue afterall...)05:50
Gorrothhmm, i should install kernel-power on pr1.3?  i have kernel-maemo05:50
nox-if you're willing to take rescue actions should it not boot, yeah05:51
Gorrothoh, based on the kernel-power info, at least, it says i should use that to transition to the new kernel-power name.  doesn't really say anything else05:51
Gorrothi mean i don't think i'm having any problems, but i don't know05:51
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DocScrutinizerwell, old kernel with new rootfs is highly prone to break. New kernel on old rootfs is usually much less problematic05:53
nox-anyone willing to update kernel-power for 1.3?05:54
Gorrothwhich one is the new kernel?  kernel-power is what i gather05:54
DocScrutinizeras new kernels should keep compatibility to older versions, and kernel doesn't care much about rootfs05:54
nox-1.3 has a new kernel05:54
nox-kernel-power still seems to be from 1.205:54
DocScrutinizerwith a bug05:54
nox-yeah 1.3 has a bug05:54
Gorrothwait, you guys just confused me :)  is kernel-power the one you recommend, or kernel-maemo?  on 1.3 here05:55
nox-kernel-power if you're willing to experiment (and report back :)05:56
DocScrutinizerI recommend you stay with stock 1.3 until further investigations05:56
nox-yeah 1.3 is safer05:56
GorrothDocScrutinizer: meaning kernel-maemo then i guess, since that's what came installed when i upgraded with the OTA update05:56
Gorrothokay, exceellent05:56
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Gorrothi'm not willing to experiment on that aspect; so, i'll just take 'er nice an' easy with the stock kernel :)05:57
Gorrothmaybe later05:57
nox-just dont leave on charger for unecessarly long time then05:57
DocScrutinizeryeah, the bug isn't affecting you much anyway05:57
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Gorrothokay.  i'll just charge it while i'm able to watch it, like at work05:58
DocScrutinizernox-: on pre 1.3 kernels we had same behaviour only for USB host attached to N90005:58
nox-ah when testing hostmode?05:59
DocScrutinizerand it was intentional (though I dunno why)05:59
Gorrothfrom what i read earlier in this chat, leaving the power connected will kill the battery?05:59
danuguys , do you guys have any success in running GMapCatcher on N900 ?05:59
nox-ah no other way around (right?)05:59
TermanaGorroth, that's not exactly what I said05:59
DocScrutinizernox-: attach any pre-1.3 device to a host PC and watch CPU freq05:59
GorrothTermana: i probably misunderstood then06:00
nox-yeah ok06:00
TermanaI said it will degrade the battery at a higher rate06:00
Gorrothoh, okay06:00
DocScrutinizernox-: bug in pr1.3 is just it does same thing for charger now06:00
Gorrothwell, thanks for the warning; i wasn't aware of that at all06:00
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DocScrutinizerkeeping backlight always-on also had same cell-wearing effect since 1.0, as charging never stops06:01
budfiveI'm using kernel-power with 1.306:02
budfiveworks fine06:02
danudo you guys have any success in running GMapCatcher on N900 ?06:02
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nox-budfive, ah cool06:02
nox-budfive, from extras or from extras-devel?06:02
budfivenox-: errr... Probably extras-devel06:02
budfivenox-: they're all in my sources.list, so if there's a choice it's probably using the extras-devel one06:03
nox-mind doing a quick apt-cache policy? :)06:03
budfivesure. hold on06:03
Gorrothbudfive: dpkg -l | grep kernel-power ... what version does it list?06:03
budfiveyeah, i know. hold on. looking for phone06:03
danudo you guys have any success in running GMapCatcher on N900 ?06:04
Gorrothhehe, you can't just ssh to it by now? :-P06:04
DocScrutinizerdanu: please!!!06:04
danusorry Doc06:04
danunobody was replying to me06:04
budfiveGorroth: can't have network on all the time. too much drain06:04
DocScrutinizerso probably nobody had an answer06:04
budfivepackage version 2.6.28-maemo4006:04
budfiveuname -r shows
danuDoc  it sounds like it is06:05
Gorrothif i get squid setup, i'm buying that huge battery adapter they have for the n900.  the one that makes it look like you're holding a late 90s PDA06:05
Gorrothso i can keep it on a long time06:05
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nox-budfive, thx06:05
Gorroththanks budfive06:05
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Gorrothlooks like the extras-devel then, because i just have extras-testing enabled, and it doesn't go up that high06:06
budfiveCan anybody enlighten me about any changes to the bootloader in 1.3? Supposedly it can dualboot meego. What changed exactly to make that happen?06:06
nox-yep 2.6.28-maemo40 def. looks like extras-devel06:07
DocScrutinizerbudfive: fud, nonsense, missconception06:07
Gorrothbudfive: i'm not sure exactly what you need to do, but i know it can boot a second OS from the SD card06:07
Gorrothi don't know how to set that up though06:07
budfiveDon't particularly want to mess with meego, but I'll want to mess with the kernel in the near future.06:08
budfiveflasher should still work as before?06:08
DocScrutinizerbudfive: they (allegedly) fixed kexec in pr1.3 kernel. But that's really unrelated to real dualboot06:08
danuguys Can you suggest me a good alternative to GMapCatcher except Ovi maps on N900  where i can browse maps offline ?06:08
budfivek. thanks06:08
Gorrothbudfive: yeah, i'm not in the meego camp either.  i might stay in the maemo camp for a while once i get this thing setup how i like06:08
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budfivedanu: tangogps, mappero, maep, ...06:10
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danuTY budfive , i am checking them now06:11
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opdf2I had qik when it was free06:31
opdf2updated to 1.3, now its not free in ovi06:32
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nox-yeah thx again from me too budfive, /me mack on kernel-power now too06:32
opdf2I have a backup, how can install free qik again06:32
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nox-dpki -i?06:43
nox-(if you are lucky)06:43
nox-dpkg -i even06:44
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nox-hm the official tangogps deb needs libcurl3-gnutls, in which repo is that?06:49
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Gorrothrunning configure script for squid and my options to it in the maemo 5 sdk scratchbox... sweet!  it finished06:59
Gorrothlet's see if this code actually builds or not06:59
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Gorrothif i can get a package built, i'll submit it to the maemo repo people07:02
Gorrothhopefully someone other than me will enjoy it too07:02
DocScrutinizer51damn, select service in dialer doesn't work anymore, to do SIP calls. Also I can't find that "use SIP for phone calls" config option. Where was that?07:03
budfiveDocScrutinizer51: do you use sip AND a cell number, or purely sip?07:07
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DocScrutinizer51both, otherwise select service wouldn't make sense07:08
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budfiveDocScrutinizer51: which number do you give to people?07:11
budfiveI got a sip account to complement my cell recently, with the goal to only have my cell number be publicly visible07:11
Gorrothwell, squid built on the X86 fremantle sdk07:11
Gorrothnow i guess i have to try on the armel version07:12
budfiveany way to make calls to the cell number redirect to sip if the phone isn't connected to the cell network that you know of?07:12
budfivethe gsm redirect codes don't work for whatever reason07:12
Termanabudfive, in answer to your question before, MeeGo/N900 uses a chainloaded u-boot solution to dual boot. Also, the kernel will not work on Maemo, because it is a mainline kernel and mainline kernels have rejected several interfaces that Maemo relies on, which MeeGo has ditched.07:12
Termanaand mainline has*07:13
Termana(there is only really one mainline :p)07:13
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budfiveTermana: ok... I'm a bit confused. I've only been running the packaged kernel-power kernel, which presumably has the maemo-specific patches applied to it07:14
budfiveTermana: and as for the bootloader, it goes nolo->uboot->linux ?07:15
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Termanabudfive, exactly. You flash a combined u-boot image as a kernel, which contains u-boot and the Maemo kernel. NOLO will load u-boot see if you have a valid kernel on your SD card, if it does it will boot that one, if not it will boot the combined one and boot Maemo07:16
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Termanabudfive, as to why the MeeGo kernel won't work, it's because MeeGo uses a mainline kernel. So the N900 patches have been put into Linus' tree and then that's pulled by MeeGo and used (with some extra patches on top by that's not in consideration here). But Linus' (or rather maintainers for the mainline tree) have rejected some kernel interfaces which Maemo relies on, so those patches didn't go upstream into Linus' tree. MeeGo doesn't07:18
Termanarely on these interfaces07:18
ham5how do I edit the gconf.xml with out them reverting back when I reboot?07:18
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DocScrutinizerbudfive: install starhash-enabler07:20
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budfiveDocScrutinizer: whoa. wait. the codes are disabled without it?07:21
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budfiveTermana: thanks07:21
budfiveDocScrutinizer: ok. crazy. is doing the gsm redirection the way to go?07:22
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johnxoff-topic: anyone ever play with i2o? (not i2c!)07:23
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budfiveDocScrutinizer: is it possible for the provider to lock down the redirection number? I'm unable to change the voicebox number in the n900 gui, which makes me suspect funny business from tmobile07:24
andrewfblackbudfive: I think that might be set by the sim card07:24
DocScrutinizerquite usual07:24
budfiveso if you can't change it, is there a way for the call to be automatically transferred to the sip number?07:25
budfivegreat :)07:26
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Gorrothoh yeah!  squid built with all my options under the FREMANTLE_ARMEL scratchbox07:32
Gorrothi hope this means good things when i try running it in the simulator, which will have to happen tomorrow07:33
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Gorrothwb DocScrutinizer07:34
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ebzzry_Hi! Does anyone here knows how frequent RobbieThe1st logs in here?07:47
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TermanaDesireebzzry_: often07:59
SpeedEvil!seen robbiethe1st08:00
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ebzzry_Termana: Thanks.08:01
DocScrutinizer51~seen robbiethe1st08:03
infobotrobbiethe1st <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 19h 59m 45s ago, saying: 'Quick question: I have a ash script with a loop: while [ -n '$(ps | grep "^ $pid")' ]; do  <- it works on my debian box with busybox's ash, but when I actually run the script, it doesn't exit the loop when $pid exits'.08:03
ebzzry_I want to know how does BackupMenu work.08:04
DocScrutinizer51which detail?08:05
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ebzzry_Where are the images stored, for example.08:06
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ebzzryHmm, do some applications, presumably compatible with PR 1.2, become incompatible with PR 1.3?08:17
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TermanaDesireIts presumably a possibility that it maybe the case08:31
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TermanaDesireDoes that not not answer your question?08:32
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johnxebzzry, yes. I think I ran into an incompatibility with libgles1 (or similar)08:32
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ebzzryIs it documented? Is it reproducible?08:33
ebzzryWhat are the implications of it?08:33
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johnxI think armagetrod (or gltron?) or something like that08:33
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johnxit had to do with apps that depend on a certain version of gles108:33
johnxwhich is quite different than gles208:34
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ebzzryOK. What about show-stopping incompatibilities? Are there any?08:34
johnxnot that I've found08:35
johnxbut I don't have many apps installed08:36
johnxdid you google?08:36
johnxdid you read
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mecehello hello maemonians09:21
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Termana_mece, hello slave boy09:28
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meceis there an app for modifying browser user agent or does one do that directly?09:32
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valdynmece: use the search function in the app manager?09:34
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valdynmece: HideUserAgent09:35
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ieatlintalright, the riot outside was funny at first, but now it's just getting ridiculous09:37
mecethanks valdyn, I was going to pretend I'm a palm pre :)09:37
meceieatlint, riot? Where?09:37
ieatlintsan francisco09:37
johnxaaaah, you guys are having a riot and you didn't invite me09:39
meceieatlint, what is it about? Teabagger party, prop8 or what?09:39
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ieatlintyou can come out and join, it's still going strong09:39
ieatlintmece: no, something far far lamer09:39
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meceieatlint, noooo09:39
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meceieatlint, that is lame.09:40
johnxwow...that sucks09:40
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ieatlintno one cared about baseball here, and then we won the league championship, and now it's an awesome excuse to start fires and throw bottles09:40
ieatlintthey're actually throwing bottles at the firefighters that are responding to the fires, and stealing their firehoses09:41
johnxjust tell them $local_politician wants to shut down funding for $local_team and they live at $place_you_want_demolished09:41
mecejohnx, for reals09:41
meceieatlint, attacking firefighters is always constructive...09:41
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ieatlint a beautiful night in the city..09:43
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johnxthat's some craziness09:44
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johnx(this actually makes someone else's blog entry make a lot more sense now ...)09:45
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crashanddiesup #maemo09:59
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mecehmm perhaps this could be useful:
* mece is experimenting with preenv10:03
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angerhas someone managed to use ms office communicator on n900?10:08
angerI suppose it only works with pidgin, not with the default messenger app?10:09
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Surfait's possible with suitable plugins also with default messenger app10:09
angerwhat plugin exactly?10:09
angerI installed the office communicator plugin for pidgin, but it was only visible in pidgin10:10
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Surfacan't help you with details, but it's possible anyway :)10:11
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angerYou have office communicator listed on your account list?10:11
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angeror do you use sip?10:12
chem|stanger: what is office communicator? another office 2010 bug ehrm feature?10:13
Surfaanger, yes I do10:13
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Surfanot sip10:13
danuHello guys , i am looking for a tool to swap between mass storage mode and pc suite mode for N900 , rather than unplugging and plugging in the usb cable , is there such a tool available ?10:13
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Stskeepsmorn wazd10:14
angerchem|st: similar to msn messenger, just integrates a bit better to outlook etc10:14
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angerchem|st: and includes video confrences and desktop sharing, etc10:14
chem|stanger: so MS skype?!10:15
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angerand most important, it's an enterprise app, so companies buy it :)10:15
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angerchem|st: pretty much so10:15
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angeryou just have to pay for this :)10:16
danui am looking for a tool to swap between mass storage mode and pc suite mode for N900 , rather than unplugging and plugging in the usb cable , is there such a tool available ?10:16
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RobbieThe1stNot sure, though it -is- possible to mount the eMMC while connected via USB(as readonly at least)10:18
johnxStskeeps, so, how is the armv6 build going? any snags yet?10:19
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danui am seriously fed up with unplugging and plugging the usb cable10:19
danui dont want to hurt my N900 :(10:19
johnx<- wrong channel10:19
RobbieThe1stso, wait... why do you need to switch, again?10:19
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mecedanu why are you plugging and unplugging?10:20
danusince i am on linux , in order to switch to mass storage mode from pc suite mode , i have to unplug and plug the cable10:20
RobbieThe1stYea, but I mean, why do you need to switch between modes?10:20
danusometimes i have to copy files into N90010:21
danuand sometimes i have to use internet on N90010:21
mecedanu scp is your friend10:21
danui cannot do both with same mode10:21
danuscp is good10:21
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danubut i prefer a tool to switch those modes :D10:21
RobbieThe1stNot sure that's possible10:21
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danuit shud be possible10:21
danuits a matter of research i guess10:22
meceonly reason I've had to plug the usb cable is to use flasher to boot meego.10:22
RobbieThe1stBut, heck, with linux - You can just use the filemanager to login via ssh10:22
mecedanu, no wlan?10:22
RobbieThe1stdrag+drop support is easy10:22
danulets say i am on storage mode on N900 , i cannot use internet on N90010:22
mecedanu, erm wot?10:22
danuand when N900 is on PC suite mode , i cannot use internet on the PC10:23
danusorry No Wlan10:23
danui am using  usb networking10:23
mecedanu, aah so you use your n900 for 3g tethering?10:23
RobbieThe1stdanu: Put it on pc-suite mode, then use ssh for everything else10:23
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johnxssh / sftp / sshfs is the way to go10:23
RobbieThe1stYou can use SSH for internet access - setup a tunnel between devices, or for file copying10:24
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johnxonly need to switch to usb mass storage for huuuge file transferes10:24
mecehm what's the command for refreshing icon cache again? gtk icon cache something something?10:24
danuuntil i get a tool to switch modes , i am going to use ssh :D10:24
danuthanks for the tip guys :D10:24
mecefound it. gtk-update-icon-cache -f /usr/share/icons/hicolor10:25
danuanother thing  , i am using maep and mappero for maps on N900 , but not really satisfied with it ,  any other alternatives ?10:26
andrewfblackdanu: geeps10:26
danuandrew thanks  let me test it10:27
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danuandrew : does it support offline tracking ?10:28
Jaffamece: You're not supposed to need that since PR1.1 (it became a no-op)10:29
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RobbieThe1stoffline tracking?10:30
danulets say once the maps are downloaded ,  then that app does not need internet again10:31
danuthat is what i wanted to mean10:31
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RobbieThe1stSo, if you don't have a data plan, it10:31
RobbieThe1st's still usable?10:31
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kerioRobbieThe1st: hmm, no10:32
RobbieThe1stWait... what GPS-software -does- allow that?10:33
danuhere  3G is expensive10:33
RobbieThe1sti.e. download maps at home, use it on-the-go without internet10:33
danuso i am sharing my broadband with N90010:33
danuand use it to download maps into N90010:34
danuso when i am on the go , app shud use the downloaded maps for tracking10:34
danuexactly Rabbie !10:34
aquatixdanu: i can recommend Sygic10:34
aquatixworks offline10:34
aquatixand works quite well here10:35
danuSygic does not have maps for my country :(10:35
aquatixoh :(10:35
aquatixreally? it has a lot of maps10:35
aquatixmay i ask which country you're from?10:35
danuof course  i am from Sri Lanka :D10:35
danueven ovi maps are not available :(10:35
danuonly google maps work10:35
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danuso app has to use google maps and has to work without internet :D10:36
danumaep works but map images are blurred10:37
Myrttisounds hilarious and repetetive10:37
danuMyrtti  of course10:37
danuits hard to explain10:37
danuapp has to use saved google maps when i am on the go10:37
aquatixhey Myrtti :)10:38
mecerednecks vs aliens sounds like a good game....10:38
aquatixi think there's some app for caching google maps and/or openstreetmap10:38
danugmapcatcher shud be the tool10:39
danufor that10:39
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danubut i am not sure whether its ported into N90010:39
aquatixmece: interesting subject10:39
mecelet's see if it works on N900 then...10:39
Myrttilistening to SF police scanner they just relieved the coppers working overtime10:39
danumece , good luck :D10:40
mecedanu, :)10:40
JaffaRobbieThe1st: Wayfinder did exactly that in Diablo; and - as aquatix says - I believe Sygic works the same.10:41
JaffaAny GPS software which requires a network connection for one or more of: maps, searching, routing is just not a go-er for me; since I mostly use GPS when driving around Europe and don't want to be paying a fortune for roaming data.10:41
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RobbieThe1stSygic might be a good idea, but its too pricy for me now10:46
danualso Sygic has no maps for my country :(10:46
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mecehmpf. apparently the ipkfetcher doesn't actually fetch the ipk's :/11:03
meceonly creates a dummy that can be upgraded with palm pre catalog app.11:03
danuguys , when i connect the N900 on PC Suite Mode , I can access internet on N900 , but not on the PC , definitely due to a dns issue , do you know any solution to this ?11:06
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jacktheripperis it possible to send two fake simultaneous touch inputs to an application ?11:09
jacekowskinot at the moment11:11
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jacekowskithere is no touch support at the moment11:11
jacekowskiit's all using mouse events11:11
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RobbieThe1stdanu: /etc/resolv.conf11:11
danu# Generated by NetworkManager11:12
danuthis is what on my PC11:12
danushall i add more dns into that ?11:12
jacekowskidanu: hmm, how are you connecting to internet on pc11:12
RobbieThe1stIt can't hurt11:13
danuvia my ADSL router11:13
jacekowskidanu: i mean just connecting phone in pc suite mode isn't going to do it11:13
jacekowskihmm, so ok11:13
jacekowskiyou have adsl router11:13
jacekowskiso how is n900 related11:13
jacekowskii mean it's your adsl router/your pc problem11:13
danui guess so11:13
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RobbieThe1stdanu: have you followed the wiki page?11:14
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danuu mean usb networking wiki page ?11:15
danui managed to get Internet working on N900 following that11:15
jacekowskiwhat are you doing?11:15
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jacktheripperjacekowski, is there *touch* input specifically, or it's all done using multiple mouse cursors on linux ?11:16
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jacekowskijacktheripper: there is no touch support on linux11:17
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defragger button11:18
defraggerwrong window sorry11:18
danuyay  now internet works both on N900 and PC !!!!11:18
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RobbieThe1stwebOS, however...11:21
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jacekowskijacktheripper: and multitouch is not there as well11:21
jacekowskiRobbieThe1st: that's vendor specific implementation11:21
jacekowskiusing non standard sdl extensions11:21
RobbieThe1stDo we have any non-standard sdl extensions on the N900?11:21
RobbieThe1stif only for single-touch11:21
jacekowskiit's all done via mouse11:21
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jacekowskiand on n900 we have X for display11:21
jacekowskiand sdl is working on top of that11:21
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RobbieThe1stOut of curiosity, is there a way to adjust the amount of pressure needed for a "click" to register?11:21
jacekowskiit's just how resistive touchscreen works11:21
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X-FadeWell, that is not entirely correct.11:21
jacekowskiyou have to push it for two resistive layers to touch11:21
X-FadePreasure is being measured.11:21
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RobbieThe1stor, can you tell the -size- of the touched area?11:21
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jacekowskiX-Fade: as far as i know it's only contact surface11:21
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X-FadeNo, it has a lot of levels. They are available.11:21
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jacktheripperpaint uses pressure sensitivity, try it11:21
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jacekowskibut is it based on real pressure or just surface?11:21
danuanybody had success with gmapcatcher ?11:21
RobbieThe1stdoes it matter either way?11:21
jacekowskiit will behave differently with a stick and differently with a finger11:22
jacktheripperif this could be ported..11:22
RobbieThe1stYou should be able to get it to respond to a lighter touch by setting the size-threshold at least11:22
jacekowskijacktheripper: there was something about something similiar being implemented in vanilia xorg11:23
jacekowskijacktheripper: but i'm not sure if it ever got implemented fully11:23
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jacekowskitime to do some work11:23
RobbieThe1stthing is, I have a screen protector and find it very handy to use a mechanical pencil lead to touch buttons(mainly on the Almost TI calculator)... but it's hard to get presses to register. They do, but it takes quite a bit of force11:24
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RobbieThe1stI recall the N770 having an adjustment for that - you could set the level(defaulted to '40')11:24
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jacktheripperubuntu 10.10 actually does have multitouch support, I'll look into later11:26
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RobbieThe1stQuick little question - Using busybox tools, what would be the best way to get the available bytes number from a specific line of df? I've already figured out that "df | grep ^/dev/mmcblk0p1" gets the correct line - What's the best way to separate it?12:20
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RobbieThe1stI messed with that, but ran into an issue with multiple tabs - cut doesn't like them12:22
RobbieThe1stideally, it'd be something like an advanced regular expression - [[:space:]]{1,} is perfect for selecting one or more tabs... But I don't know of any way to get back only selected chunks12:23
pupnik_even simpler is the 'cut' command12:23
RobbieThe1stalright, I'll look into it12:24
pupnik_unix was designed for exactly such stuff12:24
sx0ntr | cut12:24
RobbieThe1stheh, yea12:25
RobbieThe1stPerfect. Current solution: "busybox df | grep ^/dev/mmcblk0p1 | tr '\t' ' ' | cut -d ' ' -f 4" <- free space on MyDocs12:29
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RobbieThe1stAnd this is why I'm never going back to Windows if I can help it12:31
sx0nsed is also capable tool but little more challenging12:32
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ajf_how do I change the close button in the top right to a back button in a C/GTK/Hildon application? I can't see any relevant function in HildonWindow or the GTK additions documentation12:35
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alteregoweird, camkeyd injects key presses instead of using the dbus call to get to the dashboard.13:00
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alterego~seen Venemo13:07
infobotvenemo <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 15h 33m 16s ago, saying: 'hey Noobmonk3y'.13:07
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PaulFertseriksaif: hey, i do not get it. How do they plan to release the fix if it's only for the 1.1 branch? Do they plan to update qtmobility in the repos to 1.1 or what?13:24
PaulFertseriksaif: i mean who's managing the official maemo repos (not extras)? Should he be notified an update is a must?13:25
jacekowskithey don't plan to13:32
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X-FadeQtm is a separate meta package, so in theory it can be easily updated.13:34
PaulFertserX-Fade: it would be rather nice. There's a critical error making some gps-using apps segfault on start.13:35
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alteregoPaulFertser: what error?13:36
alteregoMy app works fine that uses the GPS13:36
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PaulFertserjacekowski: "David Laing: I'll do what I can from my end to get the fix integrated as soon as possible."
alteregoIs it a known bug?13:36
PaulFertseralterego: ^^ see this url.13:36
PaulFertserThe fix is already committed to the 1.1 branch.13:37
alteregoOh, nasty13:37
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alteregoWe don't really have small updates for maemo13:37
alteregoNot even security patches ;)13:37
PaulFertseralterego: who manages the repository (not extra?) then?13:38
alteregonokia? :)13:38
PaulFertseralterego: why can't he gradually update it when needed?13:38
alteregoBecause they need to go through all that QA testing stuff :P13:38
X-FadePaulFertser: The SSU repos are managed by Nokia.13:38
alteregoAnd release new images onto tablets-dev13:39
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alteregoThis sounds like a job for MohammadAG51 and his community SSU ;)13:39
PaulFertserX-Fade: lol, and that's called Maemo community :)13:39
mececould I have an uname -a from a standard pr1.3 kernel plz?13:40
X-FadePaulFertser: No, the nokia ones.13:40
alteregoPaulFertser: no, Nokia firmware updates :P13:40
alteregomece: Linux Nokia-N900 2.6.28-omap1 #1 PREEMPT Fri Aug 6 11:50:00 EEST 2010 armv7l unknown13:40
mecealterego, thanks13:40
meceis this different from, say, titan's whatnot kernel?13:41
X-FadeAnyway, qtm lives in the Nokia apps repo. Which can update without a firmware release.13:41
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X-FadeSo that will make it a lot easier for it to be updated.13:41
alteregomece: no idea, I think so13:41
psycho_oreosmece, yes, the versioning is different13:41
PaulFertserX-Fade: i'm sorry for being unclear again. What i implied was: "maemo community is weak and _still_ can't manage to convince nokia to do the right thing wrt repositories".13:41
mecepsycho_oreos: ok, thanks.13:41
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mecepsycho_oreos, do you have that installed? Could you show what it says?13:41
alteregoPaulFertser: I think that's a bit harsh, have you personally tried to move Nokia to do something?13:41
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X-FadePaulFertser: Do you have something constructive to add or are you just being a troll?13:42
PaulFertserJust being a troll, and i'm stopping now.13:42
psycho_oreosmece, I have it installed and have the versioning changed.. I think from memory, titan's kernel version would be something like 2.6.28.power-?? (where ?? equates to the version number installed)13:42
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PaulFertseralterego: in fact i think that if _all_ maemo community councils threatened to resign, it would make nokia listen. Nobody's tried that yet afaik. And i'm not making any personal attacks here while i'm being constantly bullied, so it doesn't seem like discussing this topic here can lead me anywhere.13:45
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alteregoPaulFertser: I don't think Nokia would care if the council went on strike or resigned.13:45
alteregoAnd the community is a lot more than just the council, the council are our channel to Nokia.13:45
alteregoIf you have a problem, then go to a council member and get the to raise it to Nokia13:46
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PaulFertseralterego: already did. PR1.2 privacy breach. The only council who cared resigned by now. That's all that happened. The majority of the community is unaware of the problem.13:47
alteregoI think a lot of peopel _area_ aware of that proble,13:47
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alteregoAnd we, the community, have a fix for that issue13:48
PaulFertseralterego: rather a workaround.13:48
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alteregoIt's Nokia's policy to have that MyNokia crap, what did you expect to actually happen?13:48
mecethanks psycho_oreos.13:49
alteregoDo you think N900 users should be treated differently to other Nokia customers?13:49
alteregoPersonally, I'd settle for  them treating us the same ^.^13:49
psycho_oreosmece, nw13:49
PaulFertseralterego: after they discovered the error (no opt-out for some users) they should have published sources for cherry (so everybody could be sure about what info went to nokia) and release a really fixed version with a 100%-errorfree opt-out option.13:49
PaulFertserSince they didn't and nobody resigned in the protest, well, that's the community choice to be treated like that.13:50
alteregoThe opt out is give your phone back ..13:50
alteregoIt says  this on the box.13:50
PaulFertserNow i +q myself.13:50
phellarvmece: About - "You must be using the PR1.3 kernel and nothing else." - Does this mean that if I'm using Titans Kernel, I cannot use your guide?13:50
X-FadePaulFertser: What makes you think it was an error.13:50
mecephellarv, well, might be.13:50
mecephellarv, if you don't mind reflashing, feel free to try it ;)13:51
alteregoIt isn't an error, we may not like it, but it's intentional and it's Nokia policy.13:51
phellarvmece: I take that answere as a challenge ;-P13:51
X-FadePaulFertser: It is written on the box: Registration via SMS required.13:51
X-FadePaulFertser: If you don't like that, don't buy it in the first place?13:51
alteregoI think, in some ways, we should think ourselves lucky, the fact our system is so open we can hack it to not send the sms13:52
alteregoHow do you think all those Symbian useres feel? They can't do sch*t :P13:52
Myrttiresigned? I thought their term just came to a predetermined end.13:52
mecephellarv, Stskeeps says he's fairly certain it wont work. I look forward to your test results :D13:52
PaulFertserX-Fade: i do not think that's accurate. For mynokia services registration is required. But it's not said anywhere that using mynokia is required for using the phone. I've carefully read the related bugreport and saw some photos of package etc.13:52
alterego(my photos) :D13:53
PaulFertseralterego: Freerunner _is_ an open system. What you've get there is loosy compromise.13:53
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PaulFertsers/there/here with n900/13:53
infobotPaulFertser meant: alterego: Freerunner _is_ an open system. What you've get here with n900 is loosy compromise.13:53
Sargun_Screenn900 vs. freerunner13:54
* alterego sighs13:54
Myrttiyou people need more cheesecake13:54
PaulFertserAnd tofu13:55
alteregoWhy is it, as soon as you mention the word open, people assume you mean every last nook and cranny.13:55
tybolltMyrtti: sssssh you13:55
alteregoWe're all well aware of "how" open maemo is on the N900.13:55
* tybollt is drooling now13:55
tybolltaaaaagh cheeeeeeeescake13:55
alteregoAnd imo Freerunner is no competition.13:55
alteregoThat is why I'm here.13:55
Myrttitybollt: guess am I, I've had a cup of lowsy coffee and bilberry soup13:55
Stskeepsi vote we rename 'open' as interpreted by the gnubies to 'goatse'13:55
Stskeepswhich explains the issue more clearly13:55
alteregotybollt: mmm :) Give me some :D13:56
alteregoStskeeps: agreed :D13:56
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PaulFertser/part ragequit13:56
alteregoChill out! :P13:57
tybollt /part EM0QUIT (myrtti will like that one :)13:57
Sargun_ScreenMyrtti: dude, give me cheesecake.13:57
andaxhow fast is the micro sd reader? makes it a difference to use class 4 micro sd cards instead of class 3 cards?13:57
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Sargun_ScreenN900 > Freerunner IMHO13:57
Sargun_ScreenPaulFertser: don't you remember me :-P13:57
MyrttiSargun_Screen: who?13:57
PaulFertserSargun_Screen: hi dude, sure i do.13:57
Sargun_ScreenMyrtti: You said I could have more cheesecake.13:57
Sargun_ScreenI want some13:58
DocScrutinizerX-Fade: I'd be rather careful to suggest such nonsense like "don't buy, it's mandatory, it stand on the box". It might easily turn to the worse *for Nokia*. This is not a oopsie then, that's easily considered fraud, and competitors might sue Nokia, as well as customers. Also the writing on the box is all but clear in that respect - for me it implies I need SMS reg for *OVI*13:59
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alteregoIT also said "This is an Ovi device"13:59
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: It says "This is an OVI device" before it.13:59
Myrttioh, it's always confusing when people refer to me as dude13:59
X-FadeYou also need activate an iphone, same difference.14:00
alteregoSure, and google control all of your data on Android, so we're fine :P14:00
X-FadeI personally don't like it, but it is not new.14:00
DocScrutinizerX-Fade: (ovi device) exactly14:00
alteregoI don't care :D14:00
alteregoWell, it's slightly annoying the amount of times I reflash my device, but the flag is stored on the emmc and I don't flash that as often, so I guess it's okay .14:01
PaulFertserlol, it's "slightly" annoying they're trying to rape you but since you are wearing some "decent enough" protection you do not care, what an attitude.14:02
DocScrutinizerX-Fade: it also sais somewhere "this is a bluetooth device" (OWTTE) - doesn't mean you can't use the phone without BT14:02
X-FadeYour EU money at work:
RST38hX-Fade: Ahhahahahaha14:03
* RST38h does not understand where "google rapes you" mentality is coming from14:04
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DocScrutinizerX-Fade: see, I get a N900 *because* I don't want google to store my contacts, and I checked all available info about m5 before ordering a N900. It's fraud on Nokia's side to implement such a mandatory dependency only after I bought the device and declare this a normal thing without opt-out14:06
PaulFertserMany BY citizens do not understand why some people feel too constrained in their country too. Probably that's an ex-USSR mentality of not caring about being constrained. :|14:07
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: You know that my law you are allowed to return your device within x days, right ;)14:07
BCMMDocScrutinizer:  what's m5?14:07
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DocScrutinizerX-Fade: haha, x being what? period from 1.0->1.2??14:08
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DocScrutinizermaemo 5 aka fremantle14:08
RST38hPaul: Google is not BY14:08
RST38hPaul: Apples are not oranges.14:09
PaulFertserRST38h: i used an anology to illustrate my idea.14:09
PaulFertserI know analogy is not proof, everybody does in fact.14:09
RST38hPaul: Analogy between two unrelated unsmilar entities is not an analogy14:09
BCMMDocScrutinizer: oh, of course. anyway, was something evil hapenning, or was that hypothetical?14:09
DocScrutinizerBCMM: check wiki about compulsory registration to mynokia14:10
BCMMRST38h: you see, the n900 is a bit like a car14:10
DocScrutinizeralias rotten cherry14:10
Shapeshifteruh, wtf... is it impossible to edit the imap server address for an account in modest? do I really have to delete the account? what about the mails..... o_o14:10
PaulFertserRST38h: i find those entities similar in some respect, you do not, here we just disagree. I'm just talking about people caring about their freedom.14:10
BCMMDocScrutinizer: i though that just sms spammed you occasionally?14:10
DocScrutinizerthat's just enough14:11
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RST38hPaul: Except that I am talking about reality and you seem to be talking to your perosnal demons :)14:12
PaulFertserRST38h: ok14:12
RST38hBecause in reality, you 1) have a choice of not using Android 2) have a choice of not using Android apps14:12
DocScrutinizersee, NOBODY is spamming me with SMS, and if Nokia thinks they may start it and wake me at 4'o clock in the night by sending me spam SMS while usually every SMS inbound is a RED ALERT for me - figure what I'm feeling to do to Nokia14:13
RST38hIn fact, you can SSH from an Android phone to a remote server of your liking, or use a third-party web-based interface to store addresses and send emails14:13
PaulFertserRST38h: soviet citizens had a choice of defending their freedom and going to jail, or not defending and not going.14:13
BCMManyway, is it possible to adjust file associations for the file manager and email client and so on? i want PDF email attachements to open in Evince.14:13
MyrttiPaulFertser: oh for gods sake14:13
RST38hPaul: Right. So, if you do not use an Android phone, do you go to jail?14:13
MyrttiPaulFertser: I know several people who don't use Android or any other Google service other than the search, don't have a google account, and they're doing just fine14:14
RST38hPaul: Care to cite the corresponding article of the criminal code, for the country of your liking?14:14
Shapeshifterwhat is all this commotion about. ..14:14
RST38hShapeshifter: Google is evil and assrapes you using green robots14:14
Shapeshifteralso, imap settings, how do I change them14:14
PaulFertserRST38h: my point is that Nokia can actually be pushed to be less evil but community doesn't care enough about that.14:14
BCMMShapeshifter: bad analogies, i think14:14
RST38hPaul: Nokia cannot be "pushed" to be anything14:14
BCMMthey seem to think google is like stalin, whereas in actual fact nokia is like a car14:15
RST38hPaul: It is a large corporate entity based in Finland, country where you canot even go without a vis14:15
MyrttiBCMM: you have just won the Internets14:15
RST38hPaul: It does not care about you. It does not have to. It is the Phone COmpany.14:15
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zutesmogIn fact no public company cares about "any you"  only share holders.14:16
BCMMso are file associations harcoded in the ui, or stored in gconf, or what?14:16
Myrttizutesmog: they care about the average consumer14:16
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Myrttizutesmog: the problem is that N900 and Maemo 5 aren't average products14:17
zutesmogNo they don't, only as far as they can influence them to buy their product14:17
Myrttizutesmog: indeed14:17
Shapeshifteryou can all be happy that google is so rich that they don't yet have to be evil at all.14:17
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Shapeshifterunlike apple14:17
BCMMpublicly-traded companies aren't evil as such. they are just legally oblidged to be entirely amoral14:18
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zutesmogI worked for sun for years and it really tried to do the right thing, engineering cared about products and their customers, but the market insisted that they do things that wheren't in the employees or customers best interests.14:18
Gorroththe good ones care enough not only to get you to buy their product, but to get you liking that product and talkinag about it14:18
RST38hBCMM: A company is not a human being, so it does not have to abide by rules of ethics14:18
BCMMRST38h: exactly14:19
Shapeshifterno. if they produce enough revenue, they can still follow any moral code. they're not pressured as much as a company that doesn't swim in money14:19
RST38hSame goes for states, btw. Too bad some people do not understand that.14:19
BCMMRST38h: and a publicly-traded company does not have a human or small group of humans in control14:19
GorrothRST38h: the courts might disagree with them being a person in most ways.  they get most of the benefits and none of the risk of being a human14:20
BCMMwhich is why they "don't care"14:20
RST38hSo, the rule of thumb is "don't stand where the teeth are, go where it shits golden bricks"14:20
zutesmogSun had some pretty up their moral statements in its company values (for employees etc.)  But the reality of the market meant other things happened.14:20
bigbrovarhas anyway been able to get google contact sync to work on the n900 using mail for exchange?14:20
RST38hGorroth: Yet, they do not have the same liabilities as people14:20
RST38hBesides, Law != Ethics14:20
BCMMa private company with a decent leader and mindset can actually value customers satisfaction for its own sake (as well as for financial reasons)14:21
RST38hbut does not have to14:21
BCMMlaw != ethics is missed a lot lately14:22
BCMMsee the parliamentary expenses scandal in the UK lately14:22
BCMMthe main excuse was "it wasn't illegal"14:22
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ShapeshifterI need to get rid of modest14:24
Shapeshifterwhat a piece of crap14:25
Shapeshifterbut how....14:25
RST38hdpkg -r ?14:25
Shapeshifteralternative? one that runs in the background and fetches mail every x minutes14:26
DocScrutinizerX-Fade: ( return your device within x days ) do you *really* suggest *all* users who feel assraped by nokia cherry should return their maybe 9 months old devices for full refund? Like the dudue who did that for Sony PS when they disabled the linux?14:26
Shapeshiftercherry? the sms?14:27
Shapeshifterwhile I find it wrong that they do that it's kinda silly to feel assraped because of a single sms.14:28
RST38hIt is the PRINCIPLE!14:28
Myrttimore cheesecake14:29
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: how is the wiki page going?14:29
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: it's NOT a single SMS. It's a privacy breach as they collect unknown amount of my private data, and they think they are entitled to spam me with SMS14:30
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: well it fails anyway14:30
jacekowskibtw. is that "feature" removed in 1.3?14:30
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jacekowskior is it just hidden better14:31
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DocScrutinizerNO, it's NOT!14:31
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DocScrutinizerfor all I know14:31
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: that's the whole point - Nokia didn't even feel like fixing that shit in PR1.314:32
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: they're asses allright. but it's not like they stole your soul14:32
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: you're sure?14:32
ShapeshifterI don't even know.... in the settings on my device, mynokia only has the unsubscribe button clickable. does this mean I'm subscribed? I don't receive any sms' from nokia....14:35
Shapeshifterlol but the terms and conditions are ridiculous14:36
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: you walk along the street, I call "STOP, FREEZE" at you, grab you, pull out your purse and take 50ct. Then I put back your purse to your pocket, laugh at you and tell "no move on". You'd shrug and say "oh well it's only 50ct"?14:36
andaxthanks for the link DocScrutinizer :)14:37
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: the "unsubscribe" is a "hey dude, if you think what I've done doesn't please you, then give me another 50 ct and *I* will forget I've done it"14:37
* Myrtti hands out pop corn14:38
BCMMaren't there some horrible carriers who charge nasty amounts of money if you send texts with no texting plan?14:38
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: "unsubscribe" sends another SMS to Nokia every time you click it :-P14:38
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: so what are you trying to do now14:39
DocScrutinizerBCMM: do you think Nokia cares?14:39
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DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: I tried to start a "send Nokia your cherries" campaign last weekend, but I realized I don't have any channels to do such thing that needs high publicity14:40
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andaxShapeshifter: it is reason enough to boycott nokia, especially because no one cares when the SMS suck like a mosquito and cant be blocked even not by the phone service provider.14:42
DocScrutinizerBCMM: the dude picking your purse won't give spare coins if you got no 50ct in exact amount14:43
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DocScrutinizerI'm persobally temped to click on unsubscribe 200 times, to rise the damage value above a marginality threshold, *then* sue Nokia for recompensating me for the 40EUR14:45
andaxthis is like selling servers, nit mentioning you have been giving root acccess to a teenage cap gang14:45
andaxnit -> not14:45
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fralsDocScrutinizer: is it sending an sms each time you press unsubscribe?14:46
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DocScrutinizerfrals: AIUI yes14:47
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roadii bricked my n900 with updating from pr 1.2 to 1.3 :(14:48
DocScrutinizerit sends an SMS to unsubscribe, and it doesn't know about subscription state. So what else could it do than 1 SMS / click?14:48
roadii did the dist-upgrade in the terminal-session14:48
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: so what does the campaign do, there's nothing on it on the wiki page14:48
X-Faderoadi: Congrats :)14:49
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DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: I thought of hundereds of users sending all kinds of (preferably rotten) cherry products to Nokia14:49
X-Faderoadi: You can fix your device by flashing the PR1.3 image though. So it is not really bricked.14:49
DocScrutinizerroadi: you should have done /topc here14:50
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DocScrutinizertopic even14:50
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: cute. I'm in. Why not put it on the maemo news page and possibly other forums14:50
pupnik_   "Remake Injection Moulded Parts"14:50
roadiX-Fade: is there an known way to debrick wothout flashing?14:50
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DocScrutinizerroadi: not treally14:50
X-Faderoadi: No, you shouldn't have done that.14:51
X-Faderoadi: Where did you read to do that?14:51
DocScrutinizer/topic -> ... PR1.3 being released slowly but surely. Be patient. DO NOT apt-get -dist-upgrade! See ~pr1.314:51
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roadiDocScrutinizer: irssi and the default screen resolution does not show the full (and important part) text14:52
roadibut okay - my fault.14:53
roadior is there a way for booting from a sd card and copying all important files?14:53
Shapeshifterroadi: /topic14:53
Shapeshifterso, is there a way of copying all the mails from the sent folder (local) to somewhere else?14:54
roadiShapeshifter: "Welcome to #maemo | | Maemo Com" <- i know the /topic command but hey i am not reading 24/7 every topic change. :(14:54
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DocScrutinizerroadi: anyway, remove your SIM before flashing PR1.3, and study - if you're concerned about your privacy and money14:58
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andaxShapeshifter: maybe roadi should have asked: "is in maemo an equivalent to PC BIOS accessable to choose a temporary boot device (i.e. SD card)without being a autochthon maemo hacker?"15:00
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DocScrutinizerandax: answer is:
roadiandax: right. btw i dont wanna solder any jtag. ;)15:04
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DocScrutinizerbut that still won't restore your fubar rootfs to a sane state15:04
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andaxDocScrutinizer: sounds like a huge amount of work... i remember the n900 was sold as _linux_ phone but as we go along with maemo there is a plenty of things completely different to linux as we knew it15:09
DocScrutinizerhmm, I know quite a number of sometimes really screwed linux flavours15:10
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DocScrutinizermaemo not being one of the weirdest15:11
andaxDocScrutinizer: full ack15:13
jaskaa weirder linux flavor is available on android phones :)15:13
aquatixmyeah, an android phone isn't really a linux device15:14
DocScrutinizerOpenEmbedded for example seems has adopted the notion there's no use in a proper user account on an "embedded" device, so /home/root is the only $HOME available (sic!)15:14
MohammadAG51/system/etc, ha15:14
aquatixDocScrutinizer: :/15:14
aquatixDocScrutinizer: does it have X?15:15
andaxis android really weirder? i dont know, i only had a few minutes on a android so far15:15
* aquatix loves android btw15:15
aquatixbut you shouldn't think about it as a linux device15:15
aquatixlinux is only there in the underpinnings15:15
nidOwell its wierder in that its not strictly "a linux device"15:15
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nidOits just a nix kernel running the java system15:15
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aquatixwhich is less jucky then it sounds :P15:16
DocScrutinizeradridiotisms like wakelocks are more bothering me than java'ish userland apps15:17
aquatixheh, yeah15:18
andaxwell, the term "linux" usually included GNU. Maybe in debian it was more clearly defined as GNU/linux instead. My preferred definition of linux was the whole systen and not only the kernel. GNU/linux is somewhat unspellable anyway15:18
aquatixit's GNU/Linux anyway15:19
DocScrutinizerprepare to receive private spanking of RMS :-P15:19
infobotfrom memory, flashing is
aquatixandax: strictly, things like gnome aren't linux-only15:20
aquatixGNU/Linux (or just linux) is really just the kernel15:20
andaxyeah, gnome is on opensolaris as well, for example15:20
DocScrutinizernope, GNU is the userland mainly15:20
DocScrutinizercoreutils-gnu etc15:21
aquatixandax: yeah, used it on regular Solaris in 2000 already, for example15:21
Shapeshifter._. modest is so fucking broken15:21
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: I'm much more concerned about shitty modest than cherry15:21
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Shapeshifternow I have two inboxes15:22
DocScrutinizerhmm, I couldn't care less about modest. I'm not doing huge mailing tasks on N900, I got webmailers for everything not liftable via modest, and I'm free to patch modest and also to install alternatives like claws15:23
aquatixis claws still being updated for maemo?15:24
* aquatix still has 3.7.1 on his n81015:24
aquatixwhich is oldish15:24
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DocScrutinizerI can't blame Nokia for shipping apps that are crappy but free. I'm highly concerned and upset if Nokia goes rogue though15:25
crashanddiethere is no f'ing GNU/Linux.15:25
Shapeshifterthe apps aren't exactly 'free'. it's not like you're paying for the hardware only15:25
Shapeshifterfree as in freedom, maybe15:26
crashanddieOnly Linux, which happens to be GPL.15:26
tybolltcrashie: ? do elaborate15:26
tybolltcrashanddie: Tell that to toe-cheese Stallman15:26
crashanddiebut there is nothing of GNU that is linked to Linux per se.15:26
Shapeshiftercrashanddie: old discussion, but GNU/Linux usually refers to linux kernel + gnu toolset iirc.15:26
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crashanddieShapeshifter, aye, which in the case of maemo, isn't the case at all15:26
crashanddieIt ships with busybox, which isn't GNU AFAIR15:26
aquatixanyone ported GNU/Hurd to n900?15:26
aquatix(speaking of truly GNU kernels)15:27
madduckis the flasher app not available as amd64?15:28
DocScrutinizernope, afaik15:28
madduckwtf nokia?15:28
andaxi believe gnu hurd kernel is a urban legend at all :)15:29
DocScrutinizerthere are instructions on ~flashing how to run the 32bit flasher on a 64bit system15:29
tybolltthat would've helped me bout three months ago15:29
* tybollt travels back in time15:29
tybolltDocScrutinizer: just whining they weren't there previously ;)15:30
alteregoJust install ia32 libs15:33
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ShapeshifterI don't understand any of modest' code15:37
Shapeshifterthere's so many files. How should one know which does what15:38
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DocScrutinizeryeah, that's the Nokia way of "FOSS" (though not invented by them). Just dump enough random undocumented uncommented source on community so nobody will ever dare to touch it :-P It seems this method originally been invented by US lawyers - "You forced us to disclose the files. So here you go, down in the street there are 3 vans full with paper, please unload rapidly!"15:50
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fluxso you believe they have internal documentation that's better than provided?15:51
Shapeshifterwell, the modest source is actually commented pretty well. Almost prefectly. But I just fail at C or reading 100 C files and knowing what does what15:51
Shapeshifterin the end, you'd have to spend too much time trying to figure out the architechture, while I bet the dude who wrote this would probably need to spend one hour max. to make the sent mails go to the sent mails IMAP folder instead of only having local copies...15:52
DocScrutinizerflux: ^^^ this is your answer :-D15:53
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Shapeshifterwhy don't they just do it, it's so fucking obvious15:54
Shapeshifterwhat's the point of IMAP without that15:54
X-FadeShapeshifter: I guess you could ask pvanhoof for pointers, as he worked on it in the early days at least.15:54
fluxdocscrutinizer, so, in other words, they are not doing extra effort so that others can easier time diving in..15:56
andaxAt least the unix man command could link to a internet ressource instead of showing "nothing", like it is done in puppy linux15:56
DocScrutinizerflux: exactly15:56
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fluxandax, how does puppy linux do it?15:56
DocScrutinizerandax: ??15:56
madduckfunction man() { echo$1;; }15:57
DocScrutinizerthere's man-db-n900 pkg15:57
mgedminthere were talks about ubuntu doing something like this15:57
mgedminthere's a dman script out there15:57
DocScrutinizermadduck: I suggested this ~9 months ago :-)15:57
pvanhoofShapeshifter, modest's imap code is implemented in tinymail15:57
fluxmgedmin, well, that's not the same user experience as 'man man' gives ;)15:57
pvanhoofShapeshifter, tinymail.org15:57
madduckDocScrutinizer: sorry, but i applied for the patent. ;)15:57
DocScrutinizertake it :-D15:57
flux(hmph, I meant madduck)15:58
DocScrutinizerI consider the approach highly useless anyway, esp for things like "man ifconfig" etc X-P15:58
mgedminfor the record, dman utterly fails to work for me -- and I use ubuntu15:58
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mgedminbut a networked fallback for random package you haven't installed would be nifty15:59
mgedminspeaking of which, are dict's online servers down or what?15:59
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andaxDocScrutinizer: i installed that package but seems very incomplete. I am also a bit confused which terminal program can run which program. The man script from puppy linux is maintained by barry kauler himself16:02
DocScrutinizermadduck: btw my suggestion was way smarter, substituting "echo " by "dbus-send bla blub..." to launch the browser with correct page16:02
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DocScrutinizermadduck: you're free to augment your pattent application :-)16:03
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Shapeshifterpvanhoof: thanks16:04
madduckDocScrutinizer: my browser is not dbus aware and hopefully will never be. your method is flawed. ;)16:05
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andaxthe somewhat "layered" filesystem hierarchy standard of maemo still makes me nuts16:07
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Shapeshifterdbus? ._16:08
Shapeshifterhow about xdg-open16:08
madduckhow about not assuming X?16:09
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Khertan_Hello all !16:09
Shapeshiftermadduck: point taken16:09
panattanKaadlajk hi16:09
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ShadowJKwhoah, the eastmaze battery actually measures as 1320-1350 with bq2720016:11
ShadowJK(claimed 1500)16:12
* ShadowJK wasn't expecting that much :D16:12
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: seems to get increasingly difficult for copycats to get cheap reduced-capacity cells. The original ones are way cheaper just for the mere volume built. So they don't go for reduced size but instead for reduced quality. Like cleanroom been contaminated, one day's production sold for pennies with the warning "might catch fire or explode, due to pierced separator" XP16:16
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DocScrutinizeralso it seems rather common in far east to run "dark shifts" and produce any quantity of crappy untested stuff to sell to gray market without knowledge of the company16:19
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wazdHello everyone16:19
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: see bunnie's report about SD cards16:20
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andax. o O ( also exploding SD cards? oh god... )16:21
DocScrutinizerhi wazd16:22
wazdDocScrutinizer: o/16:22
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ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, well the contaminated stuff is usually lower capacity too :)16:23
DocScrutinizernot necessarily aiui16:23
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Shapeshifterpvanhoof: so apparently, the tinymail queue will send mails. It needs to know the "sendbox" TnyFolder to copy the sent mail to, and that is implemented amongst others by TnyCamelIMAPFolder so I guess it should be simple to have the sent mails saved on the imap folder instead the local one. However, I don't understand how modest determines the folder. The function it uses (in modest-tny-send-queue.c) is this: ...16:24
Shapeshifter... but I don't get what this is about, I mean, that means that the queue has a 'sentbox' and I'm looking into the code but there's nothing in modest-tny-account.c or modest-mail-operation.c or anything. Do you remember where the sentbox folder gets set?16:24
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DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: screw IMAP - it's braindead :-P16:26
Shapeshifterit is?16:26
madduckyet there is nothing better16:26
mgedminssh ;)16:26
madduckmgedmin: no offline capability16:27
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madduckhard to share mailboxes16:27
pvanhoofShapeshifter, , so in modest there's a api that returns the TnyFolder that will be the sent folder16:27
pvanhoofShapeshifter, that api you have to replace with an implementation that returns a TnyFolder that points to a folder in your IMAP account16:28
DocScrutinizereven rsync seems saner approach to me than IMAP16:28
mgedminsomeone once said it's easier to implement universal Internet connectivity than solve the sync problem16:28
* mgedmin uses offlineimap, for the record16:28
pvanhoofShapeshifter, that's it. the rest is abstract16:28
pvanhoofShapeshifter, but ask the modest developers; jdapena and sergio villar (on #tinymail on GimpNET and #modest on this IRC server)16:28
Shapeshifterpvanhoof: okay thanks16:28
pvanhoofShapeshifter, or ask on modest's or tinymail's mailinglist16:28
panattanhi guys, is the qwerty backlight controlled by the light sensor? Coz sometime I notice that the keyboard is off :|16:29
TurskiDocScrutinizer: rsync sounds like a good idea for mail16:29
Shapeshifterpanattan: yes it is.16:29
panattanoh well :)16:29
DocScrutinizermgedmin: yeah, great approach. I send a mail, then I send it again to upload it to IMAP server's sent-mail folder16:29
pvanhoofShapeshifter, I don't remember the exact modest_* api , that's too long ago16:29
DocScrutinizerpanattan: yes, in mce - lart mce16:30
panattanShapeshifter i was planning to dissamble my device he he16:30
pvanhoofdocScrutinizer, I assume you know anything about mail? Because you're making the kinds of claims a clown would make16:30
pvanhoofBut go ahead16:30
pvanhoofPerhaps you find somebody who'll actually code your crazy ideas :)16:30
panattanbut i'll do to adjust the resistance of the keyboard16:30
DocScrutinizerpvanhoof: haha16:30
* RST38h hehes at pvanhoof16:31
pvanhoofrsync a Maildir folder :)16:31
wazdGuys, if anyone can help me with some basic flash script - that would be awesome :)16:31
pvanhoofCould work, it's not exactly close to the use-case "email", but sure16:31
DocScrutinizerit's not a crazy idea, it's what I see happening every day with my friggin local-IMAP account I'm urged to use16:31
RST38hShould I simply remember two of three most despised parts of Maemo?16:31
RST38hTracker and Modest? =)16:31
alteregoReall wonderful when the N900 goes through it's annoying auto-update process whilst I'm trying to develop with Qt creator ..16:31
andaxDocScrutinizer: main channel of puppy is just around the corner, on freenode: /join #puppylinux16:31
pvanhoofRST38h, and I'm involved in both :D16:31
wazdRST38h: o/16:31
RST38hpvanhoof: exactly =)16:32
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DocScrutinizerandax: relevance? context?16:32
pvanhoofRST38h, must be me :)16:32
pvanhoofRST38h, and in harmattan there will be even more tracker. but email is going to be different :)16:32
RST38hTar and feathers, QUICK!16:32
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pvanhoofanyway, meeting16:32
RST38hpvanhoof: As long as the goddamn daemon does not think it owns my device, I would be happy16:33
andaxDocScrutinizer: context: linking man manual pages to web resources16:33
pvanhoofRST38h, ok16:33
RST38hBut something is telling me it will be the same as in Fremantle, or worse...16:33
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pvanhoofRST38h, we have quite a lot of talks with the smart guys at nokia (being, the powermanagement guys, etc). Don't worry :)16:33
lcukhey pvanhoof \o16:33
pvanhoofhey lcuk , meeting now16:33
luke-jrmadduck: offline/sharing is not something that concerns the IMAP protocol ☺16:34
luke-jrthose are client/server implementation features16:34
pvanhoofRST38h, tracker will be completely different in harmattan than it was in fremantle16:34
DocScrutinizerbasically IMAP<webmailer, and local-IMAP<rsync16:34
luke-jrIMAP > *16:35
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luke-jrthough I agree that Modest < webmail16:35
rokr1run mailserver in N90016:35
Shapeshifterwebmail is a pain when you have 5 accounts that you don't want to mix up / redirect to a single account16:35
* luke-jr notes that webmail is just a HTTP-based IMAP client16:35
* pvanhoof didn't work on modest' UI, luckily :)16:35
pvanhoofI can always blame someone else :)16:36
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andaxDocScrutinizer: relevance: *shrugs* its not that important, as there are online resources available with the browser as well, when you know where to search, but though, puppy is a very compact linux distribution where some other nice hints to improve maemo performance could be catched up as well16:36
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: err, so you prefer to mix them up in one crappy mailer client via IMAP instead?16:36
luke-jrthat is, webmail = IMAP minus standards16:36
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ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: yes16:37
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: I prefer to mix them up in one not-crappy mailer client via IMAP ☺16:37
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pvanhoofgiven that tracker is a full rdf store, why not just store all bodystructure metadata from imap in tracker, and then have n clients making sparql queries to show e-mails?16:38
luke-jrKMail certainly works better than any webmail client16:38
pvanhoofand forget about this 'there is an email client' idea16:38
DocScrutinizerMUHAHAHAHAHA @ tracker for mail16:39
pvanhoofeverything can be that16:39
pvanhoofdocScrutinizer probably has no clue what sparql or rdf is16:39
pvanhoofbut anyway16:39
luke-jror anything16:39
DocScrutinizerpvanhoof: au contraire monsieur16:39
RST38hpvanhoof: I am afraid that the real solution here is "less tracker", but this is off the table between your smart nokia guys16:39
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RST38hpvanhoof: Because power management has nothing to do with the problems people are having16:40
DocScrutinizerpvanhoof: you seem to have no idea about how much tracker SUCKS16:40
luke-jrtracker/nepomuk/akonadi/etc could be useful if they had a sane implementation of the concepts proposed16:40
luke-jrbut none do16:40
RST38hpvanhoof: The main problem is that Tracker hogs the memory card bandwidth, affecting both disk operations and swap file use16:40
pvanhoofRST38h, again, tracker on fremantle is completely different than tracker on harmattan. you're comparing apples with cows16:41
RST38hpvanhoof: And yes, I am afraid I have to agree with Doc: you have no idea about the pain tracker causes in Fremantle =(16:41
pvanhoof*repeat* RST38h, again, tracker on fremantle is completely different than tracker on harmattan. you're comparing apples with cows16:41
mgedminto be fair, hildon-thumnailer is worse than tracker in that respect16:41
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RST38hpvanhoof: But both versions of Tracker will scan media files content right?16:41
pvanhoofminer-fs does the scanning in harmattan, it's separate from the rdf store16:42
lcukmgedmin, in process thumbnailing (whilst you have the big image) is a drum I have been banging for a while ;)16:42
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DocScrutinizerso how we're talking about harmattan now? o.O16:42
lcukpvanhoof, did you actually manage to talk with anyone after our discussion at the start of the year?16:42
mgedminpvanhoof, can tracker be configured to scan only one type of file (e.g. audio but not images) in a particular directory subtree?16:42
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mgedminsomeone here complained about album images cluttering up his pictures, and we found no solution16:43
pvanhoofmgedmin, yes16:43
pvanhoofah, no, not 0.616:43
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mgedminfreemantle tracker? ah16:43
RST38hpvanhoof: But the miner-fs will still hog bandwidth when scanning media files, right?16:43
mgedminstill, improvement is good16:43
* pvanhoof keeps forgetting youguys only talk about fremantle :) which is ancient stuff16:43
mgedminwe speculate about meego sometimes16:44
pvanhoofRST38h, no16:44
DocScrutinizermgedmin: (was me :-P)16:44
Shapeshiftertracker didn't seem so bad16:44
luke-jrRST38h: hopefulyl not16:44
RST38hWe guys learned it the hard way that "stuff" does not change all that much16:44
pvanhoofRST38h, ipc between miner-fs and tracker-store is FD passing, so no hogging16:44
luke-jrRST38h: neither would tracker in fremantle, if we had an up to date kernel16:44
RST38hpvanhoof: I am not talking about IPC16:44
RST38hpvanhoof: I am talking about actually accessing the media files content to scan for metadata, create thumbnails, etc16:44
lcukpvanhoof, fremantle stuff is ancient but on the whole relaible and not green code16:44
lcukreliable even :P16:45
RST38hpvanhoof: This will continue to happen, right?16:45
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pvanhoofthumbnailing wont happen in background anymore for example16:45
RST38hluke: has anyone tried using an uptodate kernel in fremantle?16:45
RST38hpvanhoof: Ah, cool16:45
luke-jrRST38h: impossible still afaik16:45
RST38hpvanhoof: So how will it happen? =)16:45
pvanhoofperhaps when the device is charging it will16:45
pvanhoofbut that's being discussed16:45
pvanhoofminer-fs has seen huge performance improvements too16:45
pvanhoofRST38h, on-demand16:45
pvanhoofapps need to use an api, usage of that api will enqueue a thumbnail requedst16:46
RST38hOk. So, when I shoot a photo, will it appear in the gallery immediately or once the device has been charged?16:46
pvanhoofimmediately  of course16:46
pvanhoofjust the building of thumbnails will be slower the first time16:46
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TriztN900sometimes mine lags a lot16:46
rokr1_wat lags16:47
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pvanhoofbut we are discussing whether we will do background thumbnailing while charging16:47
pvanhoofto speed that up16:47
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Shapeshifterpvanhoof: while charging, if the device hasn't been used for 10 minutes16:47
Shapeshifterand it should stop when the user does stuff16:48
pvanhoofsure, but we have not discussed this yet. but yeah something like that16:48
RST38hpvanhoof: So, once you shoot a photo and miner-fs kicks in, when will it let me make another photo?16:48
TriztN900rokr1_: the cellphone gets lagish for no real reason16:48
pvanhoofRST38h, miner-fs runs at a lower priority than the camera software16:48
RST38hRight now, it usually lets me use the device after 20-40 seconds of mad thumbnailing16:48
pvanhoofRST38h, so it can't even interfere16:48
pvanhoofRST38h, kernel forces that situation16:48
DocScrutinizerthe whole idea to make tracker an core function instead of a complementary source of info that's not _needed_ by *any* app, is fubar16:49
RST38hpvanhoof: Yes, but it accesses the disk with the same priority as kernel swap16:49
pvanhoofRST38h, that for example will change16:49
pvanhoofRST38h, but I can't give all details16:49
RST38hpvanhoof: Will it? Good.16:49
pvanhooffollow what we commit?16:49
pvanhoofall of tracker is open16:49
pvanhoofabustany even has tracker harmattan packages for fremantle16:50
pvanhoofyou can try it on your n90016:50
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pvanhoofit's just not compatible with the softwares that use tracker 0.6, so you can't replace 0.616:50
pvanhoofand nothing would use the new tracker16:50
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pvanhoofi think there's a 'fremantle' branch on gitorious with the debian/16:51
pvanhoofdocScrutinizer, if you follow the open things happening in harmattan, you'll realize that tracker will be the information source #1 for almost all apps16:51
Shapeshifterbut in the end, it's a bit evident that these large-scale multipurpose database/indexing thingies never really get used for anything apart from the people who wrote them16:52
Shapeshifterlike strigi16:52
Shapeshifteror the others16:52
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pvanhoofBut again, tracker harmattan is completely different than tracker fremantle16:52
pvanhoofso you're omfging based on 0.6, which is pointless16:52
DocScrutinizercan't wait to trample on my N900 when there'll be no way to further maintain a *sane* OS and set of apps on it anymore16:52
pvanhoofAlso isn't indexing the main use-case16:53
Shapeshifterevery app should come with their specific implementation that caters to its specific needs16:53
pvanhoofMost apps save into tracker themselves16:53
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: huh16:53
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: the n900 is not sane atm16:53
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pvanhoofBut I don't have the impression that most people involved in this discussion have much of a clue of tracker harmattan, so these omfgs are quite pointless16:53
pvanhoofGet a clue first16:54
DocScrutinizersure, but ATM it's only mediaplayer and galery that are friggin fubar due to being tracker reliant16:54
lcukpvanhoof, does tracker have a set of things to record food purchases or till receipts?16:54
pvanhooflcuk, if you make an ontology for that, it could16:54
RST38hpvanhoof: People involved in this discussion do not question your implementation of the Tracker16:56
RST38hpvanhoof: They question whether this infernal program is needed at all16:57
pvanhoofIt's central16:57
RST38hBecause there does not appear to be a way to reconcile aggressive indexing needed to make media files available immediately and the limited resources of the device16:58
lcuki do not doubt it is required, however a "minimal" scan variation which does whats required without having to count every molecule and atom of hte data ;)16:58
RST38hCentral to what?16:58
RST38hIt is not central to me, for example16:58
RST38hIt is detrimental to me16:58
pvanhoofRST38h, tracker's rdf store is the central meta info store of harmattan16:58
pvanhoofindexing isn't the main use-case16:58
Shapeshifterjust make sure it's fast :)16:58
Shapeshifterand that it's awesome please16:58
RST38hWhat if I am not interested in the meta info?16:58
pvanhoofthere's an external app that does that16:58
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pvanhoofRST38h, meta info is all info of your phone16:59
RST38hWhat if I am just interested in files?16:59
Shapeshifterif it's not going to be awesome, everybody will hate you, mkay?16:59
pvanhoofRST38h, your contacts for example16:59
pvanhoofRST38h, your emails16:59
pvanhoofRST38h, everything16:59
RST38hpvanhoof: So, if the rdf store goes, what happens?16:59
DocScrutinizerpvanhoof: I got a pretty good clue about tracker fanboys trying to reinvent the directory hierarchy paradigm and replacing it with a incredibly spare thought and implemented mockup of a associative fs. This won't change no matter how smart harmattan tracker might act16:59
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pvanhoofyour phone wont work without it16:59
RST38hYou know how sqlite databases always end up being corrupted16:59
infoboti guess pr1.3 is the latest (and probably last) software update for Fremantle, available since Monday October 25 2010. More information at -- see ~flashing for how to update16:59
RST38hSo, if your rdf store gets corrupted I lose all my data?16:59
pvanhoofdocScrutinizer, whatever16:59
* f3ew sighs16:59
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: pvanhoof: I got a pretty good clue about tracker fanboys trying to reinvent the directory hierarchy paradigm and replacing it with a incredibly sparse thought and implemented mockup of a associative fs. This won't change no matter how smart harmattan trac...16:59
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f3ewSo I ran apt-get dist-upgrade17:00
pvanhoofRST38h, we have a journal that would get replayed17:00
Shapeshifterf3ew: *zing*17:00
RST38hHmm, ok17:00
f3ewOptions to rollback?17:00
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RST38hSo, you are telling me that it should not...17:00
f3ewOr rather, what breaks?17:00
pvanhoofRST38h, if the sqlite db corrupts, we have a full journal17:00
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pvanhoofRST38h, it'll take some time to restore the database based on the journal, but no data would be lost17:00
f3ewthe OTA stuff was whining at me about upgrading17:00
pvanhoofRST38h, that means that indeed we store everything twice, redundantly17:01
infobotit has been said that flashing is
RST38hpvanhoof: Ok, windows registry way17:01
X-Fadef3ew: when you reboot, your device won't start up anymore.17:01
pvanhoofRST38h, but this is an opensource project17:01
pvanhoofRST38h, it has nothing to do with windows registry17:01
RST38hHow does storing everything twice, in a scattered data store, affect performance?17:01
RST38hpvanhoof: Actually, it does17:01
pvanhoofRST38h, he journal is append-write , it doesn't affect performance much17:02
RST38hpvanhoof: You just have to look at it from a different point of view (not closed/open)17:02
RST38hok, at least that is nice17:02
RST38hpvanhoof: Before, you had .ini files, where information was scattered over multiple files. It was inefficient, maybe, but reliable17:02
pvanhoofwell just the word "journal" should have given you that clue if you have a little bit of IT knowledge17:02
pvanhoofbut anyway17:02
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f3ewX-Fade it has restarted :)17:03
lcukRST38h, finding a way for you to access data you expect without impacting performance is the goal, not removing it entirely17:03
RST38hpvanhoof: then Mictosoft created one big bloody data store (as a single huge file of course) with all the data17:03
f3ewThe only thing which appears to be broken is the FM Radio17:03
pvanhoofRST38h, it's not configuration data17:03
RST38hlcuk: I di not expect any metadata other than filenames.17:03
RST38hpvanhoof: it is data17:03
pvanhoofit's not even remotely comparable to .ini files17:03
lcukRST38h, you do not, but many many people do17:03
RST38hpvanhoof: let us not consider its purpose, just its importance17:03
* DocScrutinizer is sensing quite a bit of arrogance in pvanhoof's statements17:04
pvanhoofRST38h, look up SPARQL at w3, read it, read Nepomuk, come back, discuss with me17:04
pvanhoofRST38h, it's ridiculous to discuss with people who are clueless17:04
RST38hpvanhoof: So, what does MS get out of this? The single store is faster to access, easier to control access to, can be accessed remotely17:04
RST38hpvanhoof: But I did17:04
lcukRST38h, like I said the other night, a minimally invasive day to day scan maintianing the core pieces in a turbo mode would be most reasonable compromise :P17:04
DocScrutinizerwell, I guess you need that to shove down everybody's throat a new concept that nobody ever asked for17:04
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: he's the dude with the clue, no?17:04
RST38hpvanhoof: And not every person who does not agree with your core ideas is "clueless" or "clown"17:04
pvanhoofRST38h, and you are still comparing this with a configuration store? read it aain17:04
RST38hpvanhoof: Ok, you got a store with important data, all in a huge blob17:05
pvanhoofsorry, but you don't really sound like having any clue at all, if you compare this with a configuration store17:05
pvanhoofthat's just a fact17:05
pvanhoofI didn't create that fact17:05
RST38hpvanhoof: The blob is structured inside, so writing a tiny bit of garbage may destroy it completely17:05
pvanhoofyes, so does throwing your device in water17:06
pvanhoofwhat is your point?17:06
lcukpvanhoof, microsoft does store "meta data" about every explorer window i nthe system, literally one branch with all configuration options *per folder* for every folder you ever open on the system17:06
RST38hpvanhoof: Notice, how this applies BOTh to win registery and your tracker rdf store17:06
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lcukthats just one tiny portion of windows registry and RST38h's point is very valid17:06
pvanhoofRST38h, let me know how we can return a query over 10.000 .init files in 0.5 seconds17:06
RST38hpvanhoof: My point is that by hiding my important data inside a huge structured ball of data closed to inspection, you endanger my data17:06
pvanhoofRST38h, let me know how we can return a query over 10.000 .ini files in 0.5 seconds17:07
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pvanhoofim waitin17:07
pvanhoofim waitin17:07
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pvanhoofgo on, explain me17:07
DocScrutinizerpvanhoof: you can wait until cows come home, there's no such usecase17:07
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pvanhoofand it should be a query language as rich as SPARQL, and rdf metadata as expressive as Nepomuk17:07
RST38hpvanhoof: And, unlike throwing your device into a lake, you are constantly writing somethign to that data blob, updating its structure, adding more data, so probability of fucking it up is way way higher17:07
lcukpvanhoof, see windows api RegEnumKeyEx()17:08
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pvanhoofdocScrutinizer, except each and every application's use-cases17:08
RST38hpvanhoof: But the thing is, as an end user, I do not care about SPARQL richness17:08
pvanhoofRST38h, again, you're being clueless. I already told you about the journal.17:08
RST38hpvanhoof: Or RDF expressivness17:08
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f3ewpvanhoof the reason text files matter is that their worst case sucks less than the worst case of a binary blog17:08
DocScrutinizeraaah yes, as we got 10.000 ini files on *any* systen in this galaxy17:08
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pvanhoofRST38h, you actually do. But you just don't understand what you're talking about17:08
RST38hpvanhoof: And thanks for that, journaling actually makes me feel safer17:08
RST38h*A bit*17:08
Sargun_ScreenRST38h: okay, don't throw my device into a lake, check.17:09
f3ewThe blob gives you better performance, the flat text files give you debugging ability. I'll take the debugging ability over speed17:09
DocScrutinizerand especially we got apps that need to know about all the 10.00017:09
RST38hI do, pvanhoof, that is the problem :(17:09
pvanhoofRST38h, i can give you a bunch of use-cases that you just can't solve with your ini files17:09
pvanhoofbut seriously17:09
pvanhoofim wasting my time here17:09
pvanhoofit's ridiculous17:09
RST38hpvanhoof: I am not trying to solve anything with my ini files17:10
RST38hIf you scroll back, you will not see me offering you to store tracker data in ini files :)17:10
Sargun_Screenpvanhoof: what do you propose instead? Oracle databases?17:10
DocScrutinizerthat's the first time I agree with pvanhoof17:10
pvanhoofSargun_Screen, im not proposing anything17:10
RST38hYou *will* see me questioning whather you need Tracker at all though17:10
pvanhoofSargun_Screen, we have a fairly good solution.17:10
Sargun_Screenpvanhoof: I'm just teasing.17:11
Lynouredrat, I should do real work and not read about your tracker war =)17:11
pvanhoofSargun_Screen, for technical people who do have a clue: Oracle uses way too much RAM17:11
RST38hWhether all this extensive rdf data with rich sparql query language is actually useful to end users who often just want to play a file from a directory17:11
pvanhoofSargun_Screen, and that's the problem with most non-embedded databases17:11
pvanhoofThey are optimized on being fast, by using huge amounts of ram17:11
Shapeshifterwell as I said, if it sucks we'll just continue hating on pvanhoof, until then, it doesn't sound too bad, does it.17:11
DocScrutinizerRST38h: +++++++!17:11
Sargun_Screenpvanhoof: oracle sucks way too many resources. i help run a db cluster at work, it's scary17:12
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RST38hAfter all, pvanhoof, you already GOT the data store from the operating system17:12
ShapeshifterI can imagine a couple of upsides if many apps use the same database17:12
Sargun_Screenpvanhoof: iirc, oracle has a set of embedded products though :-P17:12
RST38hIt is called the filesystem, and a lot of smart people spent years of work to make it reliable and fast17:12
CutMeOwnThroatyou guys mention my nickname a lot...17:12
Sargun_Screenpvanhoof: (this does not mean I'm endorsing oracle...)17:12
pvanhoofSargun_Screen, yes, well, we evaluated several database engines. But ever since SQLite started with WAL, we're quite ok with SQLite now17:13
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DocScrutinizerRST38h: yeah!17:13
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pvanhoofSargun_Screen, as it gives us some sort of MVCC17:13
pvanhoofSargun_Screen, meaning that we can allow individual processes to directly connect with the .db file17:13
pvanhoofAvoiding IPC, etc17:13
Sargun_Screenpvanhoof: I love sqlite for tiny embedded things.17:13
pvanhoofWell with WAL journaling it's kinda cool17:14
Sargun_Screenwe use it on a bunch of embedded devices, but have a custom wrapper for data compaction17:14
chem|stpvanhoof: does harmattan tracker still use +40% cpu after massstorage use?17:14
DocScrutinizerSargun_Screen: yeah, and I seen a guy who has written a text editor in VBA for excel, as he loved his cell oriented sheets so much he spent one cell per char17:14
pvanhoofRST38h, a lot of our database can't be represented as a file. Besides, we don't say apps shouldn't store the data in files too. We just cache the metadata and make it queryable efficiently17:14
pvanhoofchem|st, on harmattan we have a kernel limit of 50MB, we use 8MB on average17:15
pvanhoofchem|st, during journal replay and backup-restore we consume ~ 45MB17:15
chem|stpvanhoof: +without changes to anything for several minutes17:15
RST38hpvanhoof: You could have considered a much more lightweight approach of creating .metadata files in directories containing the media files17:15
chem|stpvanhoof: % cpu not ram17:15
Sargun_ScreenDocScrutinizer: haha, that's kind of one of my assignments for school. I have to write a halogen lamp analysis program in excel.17:15
pvanhoofRST38h, you can't efficiently query that17:16
chem|stor disk space17:16
RST38hpvahoof: this way, your data store becomes distributed, with every piece small17:16
DocScrutinizerpvanhoof: everybody with a clue in IT would notice the diff between CPU and RAM usage17:16
RST38hpvanhoof: But do I need to?17:16
Juozapasdo u know any wireless remote control program fot controling vlc, amarok etc ? like remuco.17:16
pvanhoofRST38h, your apps do17:16
* Sargun_Screen hides...17:16
RST38hpvanhoof: What makes you think I ever need to query accross many dirs?17:16
pvanhoofRST38h, our use-cases17:16
RST38hpvanhoof: Do these use cases reflect actual usage?17:16
RST38hpvanhoof: I am pretty sure your Fremantle use-cases did not17:17
RST38hpvanhoof: (and for Modest too)17:17
chem|stpvanhoof: please give an example17:17
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jacktheripperwhat version of xserver does maemo currently have ?17:19
chem|stnos does resort my music and pictures anytime syncing, if I would use that I would need a tracker cause it f*** my own setup of folders and files17:19
pvanhoofthe kind of use-cases are like: give me all photos that I took when i was in paris. give me the contacts that can be seen in the pictures17:19
pvanhoofdirectories are for computer people, not for phone users. besides, files isn't the point17:20
lcuk"show me all photos with purple lingerie"    errr should I have said that out loud :P17:20
RST38hpvanhoof: Ok, should we go over these cases?17:20
pvanhoofread the nepomuk ontology17:20
RST38hpvanhoof: To see all photos I made in <XXX>, all I need to do is visit a dated directory at my camera SD card17:21
pvanhoofthe point is cross referencing over different domains17:21
RST38hpvanhoof: You see, Canon solved this problem by simply creating a new directory every month17:21
Lynourelcuk: I was thinking Amarok searches I do almost daily17:21
chem|stpvanhoof: that use-case is obsolete for most people as you dont powerup gps for snapshots and don't tag all17:21
RST38hAnd naming files properly17:21
lcuklol Lynoure17:21
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chem|stsort by date in a folder does not need a tracker...17:21
lcukwhy are these 2 use cases and operations not compatible?17:22
RST38hpvanhoof: You "contacts in pictures" use-case is unrealistic because it requires very advanced face recognition AND a separate photo for each contact17:22
RST38hpvanhoof: I will give you a realistic use case instead17:22
lcukjust use a simpler scan and only store filename/basic information for people that say thats what they want17:22
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RST38hpvanhoof: "make 15 photos of my kids running around, in quick succession"17:22
pvanhoofRST38h, there's a guy in the community implementing that face recognition, and it's not the point in itself17:22
pvanhoofyou could for example have a tag widget for that17:23
RST38hpvanhoof: Dunno about mighty harmattan, but on fremantle it goes like this: "Make one photo. Quickly make another photo. Suffer. SUFFER. SUFFER."17:23
lcukRST38h, errr17:23
RST38hpvanhoof: Of course it IS the point.17:23
lcuki take many many photos17:23
lcuki juse backed up last night actually, 9gb of them17:23
RST38hpvanhoof: You have said that you considered REALISTIC use cases17:23
chem|stRST38h: that is thumbnail0r + tracker, the mighty device-freeze-combo17:23
pvanhoofRST38h, I of course can't tell you the ui stories and use-cases that we get here17:23
RST38hpvanhoof: Two sample use case you have given as examples though, turned out to be duds17:23
pvanhoofRST38h, you know that as good as I know17:24
PaulFertserLOL, inventing some complex obscure slow system for some unrealistic usecases just to make your users' lifes harder.17:24
RST38hpvanhoof: Once is solved by correct placement of photos by the camera app. Another is someone's research paper17:24
RST38hchem|st: Exactly17:24
pvanhooflook, im in a meeting17:24
* Lynoure lost the goal of the debate a while ago... could someone enlighten me?17:24
pvanhoofim really wasting my time with you RST38h17:24
PaulFertserThere's > 500 members on this channel and you pvanhoof say that somebody needs that usecases, where're those who does?17:24
chem|stpvanhoof: it is good for people who like to be kept sorted... ever heard of freedom?17:25
pvanhoofchem|st, and checkout tracker17:25
RST38hGo, pvanhoof, don't waste your time here17:25
Sargun_ScreenLynoure: seconded17:25
Lynourepvanhoof: beats a boring meeting on a rainy day, possibly? =)17:25
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Sargun_Screenjust please, please, don't use gconf.17:25
RST38hDon't let reality turn you away from the sparqling goal :)17:25
LynoureSargun_Screen: seconded :)17:25
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Sargun_Screenuse sqlite with a well documented schema, or filesystem/text17:26
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Sargun_Screenlcuk: do you lobe gconf?17:26
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lcukSargun_Screen, nothing to do with it17:27
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lcuki see tracker as being important to people and a bane to others - RST38h has a valid point about filesystem simplistic people and pvanhoof has a point about indexed everything17:28
lcuki sighed because you are both to pig headed to see that ;)17:28
RST38hlcuk: Try explaining what points we have, in detail17:28
RST38hYou will see why we are "pig headed"17:28
Sargun_Screenlcuk: yes, but anyone even thinking about it, is having a bad idea (re: oracle fun i was poking earlier)17:29
lcukRST38h, you dont want the system slowing down doing worthless stuff17:29
LynourePity that discussion did not take place a year ago.17:29
RST38hlcuk: Do avoid words "rich", "extensive", etc. though :)17:29
RST38hLynoure: It would not change a thing.17:29
chem|stRST38h: I'd love to have a msg asking me "There are changes in ~/MyDocs/.sound/ do you want to rescan and update the library? YES/NO"17:29
LynoureRST38h: no, but then it would have had a chance.17:29
nidOwell its more the point that you both think yours is the only "right" way, when some users prefer one and some the other, without considering the possibility that the ideal solution would be to provide both options.17:29
RST38hchem|st: same here17:29
lcukRST38h, i am pleased that tracker extracts media info from music files on the whole17:29
lcukit has organised my random mp3s17:30
RST38hchem|st: it is actually doable by shutting down tracker's indexing and having a desktop button "Index once"17:30
nidOwhereas personally I despise that tracker has done that17:30
lcukbut at the same time i wish i could still use folder based organisation17:30
RST38hlcuk: Organized them into what? A list of random mp3s? =)17:30
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lcukRST38h, no, given me the cover art and the track information17:30
RST38hnid0: Actually, I do not think that "mine" is right17:30
RST38hnid0: I think that the price we are paying for having that metadata store is too high17:31
chem|stRST38h: I hate it... just pluging in usb to grab some files "from" device and indexer-tracker-thumbnailer-daemon-from-hell is freezing the system for seconds and occupiing it for minutes17:31
RST38hnid0: "better performing device" beats "metadata store" 100:1 in my view17:31
chem|stRST38h: did that before17:31
RST38hchem|st: I hate the camera thing more17:31
kerioRST38h: what i want is just a damn "scan dat shit" button17:31
keriowhich i can push17:31
kerioto get a scan with a progress bar17:31
chem|stLynoure: was it you with amarok before?17:32
RST38hThe USB stuff I learned to live with, just leaving device alone after disconnecting USB17:32
kerioand the rest of the time, tracker should STFU17:32
DocScrutinizerlcuk: pvanhoof though is trying to revolutionize age old hirachical fs based paradigma and make *all* apps follow his new shiny but weird tracker scheme17:32
DocScrutinizerlcuk: nobody likes dictators17:32
RST38hDoc: Which, of course, he has not been the first instance of :)17:32
chem|stRST38h: but that should be fixed now I thought17:32
lcukDocScrutinizer, and you are against trying something new?17:32
RST38hDoc: BeOS!17:32
RST38hchem|st: Nope.17:32
RST38hlcuk: One more time, slowly:17:33
RST38hlcuk: Trying something new is absolutely fine.17:33
RST38hlcuk: Trying something old for the nth time is fine too, in fact17:33
RST38hlcuk: Preventing me from using the device just becaue you want to try something new is bad, very bad17:33
DocScrutinizernope, I just RECOMMEND no app shall brack when tracker is not present on a system. Tracker is a pure complemetary system, it MUST NOT made core architecture17:33
* RST38h agrees with Doc here17:34
RST38hI should be able to disable the goddamn tracker,, same as I do on Ubuntu17:34
pvanhoofcrazy people :)17:34
RST38h"Crazy" is collecting 350MB of metadata in my ~17:34
PaulFertserpvanhoof: bring someone who likes tracker running in BG here17:34
RST38hKilling the offending program is not "crazy", it is reasonable17:34
pvanhoofHow many times did I say now that tracker on harmattan is completely different than tracker on fremantle?17:35
DocScrutinizerWE GIVE A FLYING F....!17:35
RST38hpvanhoof: But we will not know how it is different until we try17:35
nidOdoes it still forcibly sort your media when it wants how it wants?17:35
RST38hSo, lacking Harmattan, we have to make estimates based on previous experinece17:35
DocScrutinizerthis is about architecture, not about performance17:35
RST38hAnd the previous experience has not been very positive, you know...17:35
chem|stDocScrutinizer: I add a horse!17:36
keriotracker can SUCK MY DICK17:36
* pvanhoof goes into 'answers only reasonable people' mode17:36
pvanhoofChannel moderators should probably consider moderating a bit more17:36
* RST38h cackles evilly17:36
* RST38h cackles even more evilly at that remark17:36
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Stskeepsbehave, children17:37
* DocScrutinizer suggests pvanhoof goes into "i'm not wasting my time" mode and occasionally rethinks his attitude17:37
chem|stpvanhoof: so it is a global process in harmattan?! (not questioning the performance)17:37
RST38hStskeeps: But we do, we do17:37
ShadowJKpvanhoof, yeah.. .just the problem that some of those people are some of the moderators..17:37
Stskeepsit's not like you're motivating developers to discuss in the open by this behaviour17:37
pvanhoofchem|st, what do you mean with global process?17:37
pvanhoofShadowJK, then the maemo community is in serious problems17:37
pupnik_standard TFT versus PixelQi screen (transflective)
RST38hStskeeps: It is not possible to only make positive, agreeable comments in a discussion17:37
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chem|stpvanhoof: a process that needs to be kept running to not brake the system17:38
RST38hStskeeps: Especially when we are discussing something like Tracker17:38
chem|stsorry not global core17:38
pvanhoofchem|st, tracker is a global process then, yes17:38
chem|stcore I mean17:38
RST38hStskeeps: Now, you may have noticed that most of us stayed pretty civil, despite being called "clueless" and "clowns".17:38
lcukRST38h, actually you could be.17:38
pvanhoofchem|st, as mentioned earlier is tracker the #1 store for almost all things on your device17:38
pvanhoofchem|st, on harmattan that is17:38
pvanhoofchem|st, just not for file-based data of course17:39
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: and constant offensive assumptions / statements of pvanhoof just don't help17:39
RST38hStskeeps: So, suggestion to "moderate" the people present is pretty funny17:39
ShadowJKpvanhoof, what's been done different with tracker now? Is that intimidating-looking cgroups thing put to good use to throttle it now? :-)17:39
pvanhoofStskeeps, has a good point17:39
chem|stpvanhoof: total fail from R&D perspective, thats like a car not to start because the navigation system is not able to start up17:39
StskeepsDocScrutinizer, RST38h: well, people are acting a bit like assholes and just attacking instead, which looks pathetic17:39
pvanhoofIf open discussion means being insulted, then fuck that17:40
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DocScrutinizerpvanhoof: I've only one user insulting people here17:40
chem|stpvanhoof: "just not for file based data"? you mean settings?17:40
pvanhoofchem|st, but again, tracker on harmattan isn't as unreliable as tracker is on fremantle17:40
pvanhoofchem|st, it's completely different17:40
pvanhoofchem|st, no settings is not for tracker17:41
pvanhoofchem|st, settings nor state are for tracker17:41
ShadowJKI'm not so sure if the critics of tracker are that concerned with its reliability.. Though I'm not sure :)17:42
pvanhoofIt's an rdf store with a sparql frontend17:42
pvanhoofAnd there's a miner too, but that doesn't play the same key role as it did on 0.617:42
DocScrutinizerpvanhoof: citation needed? (for the insults)17:42
StskeepsDocScrutinizer, RST38h and the sad fact is that tmo, mailing lists have gone down after people stopped having civil discussions and people have been destroying this place in same manner by acting rude, paranoid and generally pathetic.17:42
chem|stpvanhoof: so you mean it is data stored in something else than a file? have you ever read the #one rule of unix?17:42
pvanhoofShadowJK, the performance problems with 0.6 have been dealt with of course. In fact, tracker is completely redesigned. We even wanted to rename the project at some point17:43
StskeepsDocScrutinizer, RST38h: to the extent that right now, even i feel like leaving this place not to deal with those kind of people.17:43
lcukpvanhoof, have you ever discussed transfer of tracker data between machines via syncing and stuff?17:43
pvanhooflcuk, yes this is being discussed17:43
ShadowJKOh yes, I tried to rsync my old ~ over to my repaired N900, and the tracker database was unusable17:43
ShadowJK(it was usable at the time the copy was made)17:44
pvanhoofShadowJK, to do that in a way that it'll work you would need to stop tracker first, yes17:44
pvanhoofShadowJK, the reason is sqlite's journaling.17:44
pvanhoofHowever, that's not how you back up your device correctly17:45
lcukpvanhoof, is there any data to be stored in tracker that is not written back to the files required (like tagging and rating and stuff)17:45
ShadowJKpvanhoof, the "correct" way loses data though :)17:45
pvanhooflcuk, yes there is a lot of data that can't be mapped to files' native metadata formats17:45
pvanhooflcuk, however, files aren't the only use-case, they are actually a minor use-case17:46
ShadowJKThough in retrospect I should have maybe done rsync and then osso-backup restore17:46
pvanhooflcuk, for example for 'contacts' we don't have files to write back to17:46
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pvanhoofShadowJK, is this about maemo/fremantle?17:46
lcukpvanhoof, well, you have vcf format which you can persist/restore from17:46
ShadowJKpvanhoof, yes17:46
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pvanhooflcuk, yes, but vcf files isn't how on fremantle contacts are stored. You can export to vcf files, and import from, though17:47
pvanhoofharmattan I meant17:47
pvanhoofWe are the primary store for contacts17:47
lcukpvanhoof, i am talking in general, not a specific implementation17:47
pvanhoofFor for example music files, we play more the role of a cache17:47
pvanhoofFor their metadata17:48
RST38hStskeeps: Confrontation is a necessary part of the discussion17:48
ShadowJKRST38h, tool ate17:48
pvanhoofAnd we can writeback to those files in many cases17:48
RST38hWait, DON'T write back to my media files.17:48
lcukyeah pvanhoof - for mp3s and photos its quite reasonable (mp3/jpg at least)17:48
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ShadowJKIs this all one gigantic sqlite db for contacts and media metadata cache?17:49
pvanhooflcuk, the problem with vcf files is of course that you can't make complex queries over them, and still be fast17:49
RST38hYou officially have no permission to write back to my personal media files =)17:49
lcukpvanhoof, i never said to use them in day/day17:49
RST38hShadowJK: Apparently (based on the previous discussion)17:49
lcukbut your remark that the information is not available in files - it *can* be using the generic vcf container if required17:49
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lcukRST38h, when I open image editor and set tags on things, usually I expect them to be written back to the file17:50
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lcukcos i have that photo or set open17:50
lcukbut generic background writing of random things is agreeably not the right way17:50
pvanhoofok /me has food plans in 30 minutes17:50
ShadowJKOn fremantle, as a user, I've noticed this pattern. Any apps that use an sqlite database bigger than about 200k will stutter and hang/"lag" very easily. sqlite seems to have a talent for pegging the backing store at 100% utilization (though actual bytes in/out from OS perspective is something like 50kbyte/sec due to mmc write amplification effects)17:51
pvanhooflcuk, btw thanks for getting the discussion back on track17:51
lcukbon appetite pvanhoof \o ta for spending the time17:51
pvanhoofor at least trying17:51
pvanhoofShadowJK, with WAL journaling that'll improve17:52
ShadowJKI hope someone has figured out a way to make sqlite behave, because I haven't been able to think of anything good :-)17:52
pvanhoofIt's related to fsync behaviour of sqlite17:52
pvanhoofShadowJK, they have, it's called WAL17:52
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* pvanhoof hopes people will actually read this technical stuff this time :)17:52
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ShadowJKReading every 5th line, it looks something like a user space reimplementation of nilfs2 filesystem. I like17:54
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RST38hlcuk: But only whenyou do it yourself17:54
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pvanhoofIt's quite nice17:54
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RST38hShadowJK: You fix software by adding another layer of software, in this case journaling :)17:55
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chem|stRST38h: thats like installing colinux on top of windows ;)17:57
DocScrutinizerI just repeat: tracker is a nice complementary tool, but not meant to go core architecture. There MUST NOT be any app (except tracker maintenance ofc) that breaks when tracker isn't available17:57
pupnik_[ pixel qi replacement display for 10.1" netbooks ]17:57
Lynourechem|st: Yes, it was me who mentioned my searches with amarok.17:57
Lynourechem|st: and then I got an ounce of wisdom and went back to my utterly unrelated code :)17:58
RST38hDoc: No, tracker is a wonderful database solution that lets you establish ontological relations between all your personal data such as contacts, emails, im messages, video and audio metadata and much much more17:59
RST38hDoc: You can query all this wealth of data using SQL-like language called SPARQL and it is always at your fingertips18:00
DocScrutinizerRST38h: maybe18:00
RST38hDoc: "maybe" is not good enough. It is YES!18:00
RST38hOr yes sir, rather18:00
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DocScrutinizerRST38h: stfu, you got no clue about IT18:00
ShadowJKFor some reason firefox seems to refuse to want to load all js and css on xkcd for me today. It's kinda cool, I click a link, and the website appears like instantly. I never knew a Core 2 Q9550 could display a website in less than half a second :)18:01
LynoureShadowJK: heh18:01
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pvanhoofRST38h, actually that's correct18:02
DocScrutinizerRST38h: you know, only Nokia knows about who's got a clue, and all those are hired as consultants. Are you hired as Nokia consultant?18:02
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RST38hDoc: See, I got pvanhoof to agree, it was easy18:02
pvanhoofRST38h, and what is also correct is that several ui use-cases require these ontological relationships18:03
RST38hDoc: And you know how I know all these words?18:03
pvanhoofRST38h, but i can't give you any of those ui use-cases, without first doing a legal check18:03
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RST38hDoc: I used them in scientific papers on database algebras, not unlike SPARQL :)18:03
pvanhoofHowever, I can tell you that it goes way further than "files"18:04
RST38hpvanhoof: Don't, it will endanger your NDA18:04
RST38hpvanhoof: I can actually list all these use-cases to you18:04
pvanhoofgo ahead, but i wont :)18:04
RST38hMostly because there are not many, and they are kinda well known18:04
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RST38hFirst, you probably want to do more data linking inside the address book18:04
pvanhoofthere are some new things being tried18:04
RST38hLink people to emails and im logs for example18:05
pvanhooffor example, yes18:05
RST38hIf you are crafty, you will link people to their addresses to their locations to images shot at these locations18:05
RST38hI started with address book because this is where most data is18:05
pvanhoofthings like that, but im not going into much more detail here18:05
pvanhoofyes contacts is quite important for ues18:05
RST38hOnce you go to other apps, like camera, you get less data, but you can still link it to maps for example18:06
pvanhooffiles are actually far less important, but you insisted during the whole discussion to focus only on that18:06
pvanhooffocus is on files = fremantle18:06
DocScrutinizerRST38h: tracker is a nice tool and inproving/augmenting it in capabilities and performance is nice18:06
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Lynoureor to time of shooting, which opens a whole range of things18:06
pvanhoofThat's not even very relevant in harmattan18:06
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RST38hYou probably will end up doing some app store stuff18:07
DocScrutinizerpvanhoof: but it shouldn't obsolete file selection dialogs in all apps18:07
RST38hLike guessing songs and directing to a store with more songs18:07
ShadowJKSometimes I wish there was a way to tell this fancy non-file-based stuff (I'm mostly thinking about the fremantle media player here) that "This folder contains well-organizer music with one album per folder. Each filename starts or ends with a number, this is the order of the song on the album".18:07
* pvanhoof wonders when he said that we're obsoleting anything about file selection dialogs18:07
pvanhoofwe're not even very involved in UI18:07
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* Lynoure imagines "people who take photos where you take photos like these bands"18:07
pvanhoofUI people come talk to us about how to implement their use-cases, of course18:08
RST38hAnd now, once I displayed the uncanny knowledge of the ontology uses, I have to say...18:08
pvanhoofAnd if they need a file dialog for their UI, which on a phone is kinda weird, but anyway, then sure18:08
RST38hThat most of this stuff is not useful to most ordinary people :)18:08
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RST38hOk, it is useful but not at the price of device performance.18:09
pvanhoofRST38h, ordinary people are indeed not going to write sparql queries in textboxes, no18:09
pvanhoofbut it doesn't come at any performance price. tracker-store sits in poll() when nothing is using it18:09
RST38hpvanhoof: Actually most of the above use cases (outside of address book that could be handled without tracker) they also won't do18:09
DocScrutinizer<pvanhoof> docScrutinizer, if you follow the open things happening in harmattan, you'll realize that tracker will be the information source #1 for almost all apps18:09
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chem|stpvanhoof: a link between an event a location and pictures taken and music played while that event18:09
Lynourechem|st: ooh.18:10
pvanhoofchem|st, that will be possible with tracker, to store,yes, and to query18:10
pvanhoofWhether any app will make and use such a query is a different question18:10
DocScrutinizerpvanhoof: that's what I have read as "more apps will have no other means than tracker to access files"18:10
ShadowJKI watched a "normal" user struggle to transfer a file from their phone the other day. On the phone there was "Gallery", in which there was "Pictures", and there the picture to be transfered was to be found. Alas on the memory card, it was organized as "Images", and the picture was in there. It only took 15 minutes before they found the file, after rebooting both the phone (which wasn't involved at all since the memory card was in the PC) and the PC, and r18:11
chem|stpvanhoof: how is it secured?18:11
ShadowJKeinserting the memory card a few times. Anyone talking about "ordinary people" should go and actually observe them :)18:11
pvanhoofdocScrutinizer, no that's not true of course. we're not replacing fopen()18:11
DocScrutinizerok then18:11
pvanhoofchem|st, using the standard security framework for harmattan18:11
DocScrutinizerthough it's not exactly fopen() i'm talking about, more like osso-fileselector or whatever it's called18:11
pvanhoofchem|st, in future we will probably have named graph support, which could enable us to allow certain apps access to certain data18:12
chem|stpvanhoof: anything worth or just a doorbell without actual door18:12
chem|stbut doorstep...18:12
pvanhoofchem|st, lemme check what is public about this first ..18:13
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ShadowJKDoes funny mysterious things happen if you want to do NFS or CIFS and flash yourself a kernel with those built in (affecting security framework presumably)? :-)18:13
Trewaspvanhoof: you have mentioned harmattan many times, is this tracker stuff really only about harmattan or is it as central also in meego?18:14
pvanhoofTrewas, also in meego. at least that's the plan18:14
pvanhoofMany meego apps (made by nokia) will depend heavily on it18:14
chem|stpvanhoof: ok so no security at all18:14
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pvanhoofchem|st, ?18:14
pvanhoofchem|st, there's for example access control based on unix file permissions for direct-access and on dbus , we don't store on a AegisFS encrypted FS because that would slow things down a lot18:15
chem|stpvanhoof: if tracker is called "part" of the platform we need some more than just credential storage and user management18:15
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pvanhoofchem|st, encrypted FS is too slow. We decided not to do that18:16
pvanhoofIn future we might have to18:16
chem|stunix filepermissions are for users relevant not for root18:16
pvanhoofBut this kind of stuff, I "definitely" can't talk about18:16
chem|stpvanhoof: with a chip-based encryption you would not save power but cpu usage18:16
pvanhoofchem|st, well, getting root on harmattan will disable a bunch of things18:16
pvanhoofthey communicated this a long time ago on FOSDEM18:17
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pvanhoofchem|st, atm is the encrypted FS of that security-framework stuff a FUSE implementation18:17
SpeedEvilencrypted filesystems go at over 5 meg a second18:17
pvanhoofAnd that adds a few ms to each syscall18:17
pvanhoofNot good18:17
SpeedEvilon n90018:17
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SpeedEvilwell over18:17
pvanhoofSpeedEvil, bandwidth isn't the only problem18:17
pvanhoofthe biggest problem is that it's a FUSE FS, which adds a lot of overhead per syscall18:18
pvanhoofSo latency vs. bandwidth18:18
pvanhoofsqlite is improving on how it uses read() and write() with WAL, of course. But still18:18
chem|stSpeedEvil: I get about 28MB from a 1TB 5600rpm hdd what do you expect from a ssd?18:18
SpeedEvilchem|st: on n90018:18
ShadowJKIf fuse latency is the biggest latency right now, I'd have to say sqlite has improved alot since fremantle, where emmc latency is like 5 seconds :-)18:19
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pvanhoofkinda strange that you guys want this on a encrypted fs :)18:19
pvanhoofyou are supposed to be the we want things to be open - guys18:19
chem|stSpeedEvil: thats why I said SOC for the encryption18:19
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pvanhoofencrypted fs means: not accessible to you if you boot your device in a non-normal mode18:19
chem|stpvanhoof: open and encrypted is not an oxymoron!18:20
pvanhoofLike if you want root18:20
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: n900 hardware accelerated encryption can go at almost 10MB/s18:20
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: do you have 1.3?18:20
pvanhoofchem|st, ok, read some more on the meego-security-framework18:20
pvanhoofI can't really tell you much about it18:20
chem|stpvanhoof: use standard tools and anyone can18:20
pvanhoofagain, read up on the security framework18:20
pvanhoofit's afaik all public18:20
pvanhoofbut im not going to risk my ass :)18:20
chem|stjacekowski: what is speed unencrypted?18:21
SpeedEviljacekowski: no18:21
jacekowskichem|st: i mean just encryption hardware can pass 10MB/s18:21
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jacekowskichem|st: with minimal load on user side of things18:21
jacekowskichem|st: and builtin emmc can go at 15MB/s if you're lucky18:22
chem|stjacekowski: encryption hardware does pass 30MB/s if there is enough power and space18:22
pvanhoofadding hardware isn't that easy18:22
chem|stfor the size of n900 I guess we get 15+ with descent powerconsumtion18:22
jacekowskichem|st: i mean on n90018:22
jacekowskichem|st: builtin encryption hardware18:22
DocScrutinizerpvanhoof: ooooh nice. security framework raising its ugly head. Getting root is dropping things instead of making then available. I have to say I hate harmattan even now18:23
ShadowJKjacekowski, what's that thing called again, securit dma? Or is that what samsung calls it18:23
jacekowskiShadowJK: m-shield18:23
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: see?? ^^^^18:23
pvanhoofdocScrutinizer, don't look at me18:23
jacekowskiShadowJK: i mean it's part of m-shield18:23
DocScrutinizerpvanhoof: I don't18:23
chem|stjacekowski: I know... but with different hardware like that add another 100 bucks, I would buy it anytime18:23
pvanhoofdocScrutinizer, im one of the guys helping you, so please be pissed at other people18:23
DocScrutinizerpvanhoof: I'm not pissed at you18:23
pvanhooflike the people who make cloud services, and contracts that require device vendors to have this stuff18:24
pvanhoofor do you think that you own the data about yourself that they collect ?18:24
chem|stpvanhoof: you are talking about facebook icq and apple?18:25
pvanhoofno idea18:25
chem|stor google... amazon...18:25
pvanhoofno idea18:25
pvanhoofgtg, food18:26
ShadowJKenjoy your food, thanks for the chat :-)18:26
chem|stthey all own your data as long as the local law does not forbid it18:26
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: that's what I always told you. Security framework means you have to drop all secure tasks from memory and clean out, befora a single non-trusted app (like root) is started. Now tell me, who owns my device wih harmattan. And please tell me security framework is for our benefit18:26
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pvanhoofdocScrutinizer, it's not that blackwhite18:27
pvanhoofgtg bye18:27
infobotfrom memory, pr1.3 is the latest (and probably last) software update for Fremantle, available since Monday October 25 2010. More information at -- see ~flashing for how to update18:27
chem|stDocScrutinizer: well... root like fremantle could lock all this stuff and su could keep it open !?18:28
chem|stone requires a password one doesn't18:28
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infoboti heard flashing is
DocScrutinizermy su requires root password :-P18:28
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, from reading the security framework stuff along time ago, I got the impression that you'd be mostly fine if you immediately switched to "unsecure" mode the moment you got it, so that you don't lose any data when you do want to do anything except basic stuff18:29
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: ACK18:29
slonopotamusthat page DOES say that one should try dist-upgrade18:29
ShadowJKand then I'll just keep storing my passwords in a plaintext file inside a .tar file encrypted with "openssl bf -e" and a single long password I actually remember, and manually uncompressing it whenever I need it ;-)18:30
DocScrutinizerthat's about true security, not about "Trusted" though18:30
ShadowJK(yes there are utilities for this in the repos, but it seems nobody who made them considered what I want to do, 'search', so I just have a plaintext file and /usr/bin/grep instead)18:31
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chem|stShadowJK: I screwed my loop.aes file and am glad to have set some passwords by hand just in case ;)18:33
alteregoWeird, I wonder why QIODevice is reading more bytes than I want it to, it's causing a segfault ..18:33
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ShadowJKchem|st, I have loop.aes on my server, I am still amazed to this day that it has survived 2 physical machines and ~4 years :)18:34
ShadowJKA little annoyance is that I have to log in over ssh and mount it manually each reboot..18:34
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internetishardhow do you make it connect automatically to only the cell network and ONE wifi connection (instead of any)19:12
tobis87I have read in the irclog, there was talk on hardware encryption? I'm sad to say but hw accel. is broken on the n900: "It might be also an OMAP silicon bug... I do not have really possibility anymore to spend a time on that. AES support was never promised and tested on the device." The best alternative is to use twofish instead of aes for encryption.19:13
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tobis87The n900 does not wake up from offmode anymore:" it is something related to 'off' mode, when device goes to deep sleep. Some configuration might be lost." At least sha1-md5 seems to work.19:15
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fcrochikhi.... has anybody had problems with dns/wifi after pr1.3? I can connect but it seems that getting the dns addresses is not working19:19
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tobis87fcrochik: Have you tried to ping the host?19:22
fcrochiktobis87:  what host?19:22
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tobis87Which you cannot connect to.19:23
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fcrochiktobis87: I can ping ip addresses.... the issue is resolving is not working on two different wifi nets19:24
tobis87ok, don't know how the n900 resolves dns.19:25
tobis87Oh, it uses dnsmasq19:27
tobis87check the resolv.conf* files in /var/run/19:28
fcrochiktobis87: for me to test I will have to disconnect....what should I look for?19:29
tobis87Just cat the files, it should show which dns server is used, *.wlan0, *.ppp0...19:30
fcrochiktobis87: I will check.... thanks19:31
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tobis87Why does the n900 use dnsmasq, anyway?19:32
LjLi use dnsmasq, it's handy19:33
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trumeehmm. Ctrl + Right arrow key doesnt hop to the next input field in microb. It used to work in PR1.219:34
slonopotamuscrappy microb doesn't support mailto: urls19:34
tobis87Ok, for ICS it might be handy. Used it also for some time, however I now use bind9 on my pc. The provider fuck to much around with dns recently.19:35
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Noobmonk3yanyone around who could look at some troublesome QT for me please?19:36
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* Noobmonk3y blinks19:37
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Noobmonk3yMohammadAG: ? :)19:38
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, mohammadag is your father19:38
* MohammadAG slaps Noobmonk3y 19:38
infobotyou are probably a huge trout most of the time, other times he can be a slimey mackerel..... a sardine19:38
Noobmonk3yMohammadAG:, sorry Mousey19:38
Noobmonk3ybeing my father MohammadAG , you should help me with my qt!19:39
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Aranelrepos down again?19:39
MohammadAGmore of a "I AM YOUR FATHER" thingy :P19:39
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MohammadAGbut infobot hates caps19:39
Noobmonk3yAranel, worked for me a few mins ago19:39
infobotfrom memory, frals is a large smelly trout, or the developer of fMMS19:40
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Noobmonk3yso accurate19:40
MohammadAGNoobmonk3y, so what's wrong with it?19:40
Noobmonk3ywell, the output to screen doesnt happen, tried qlabel, q textbrowser, tried append, set text etc........19:40
Noobmonk3youtputs to debug fine :|19:40
AranelNoobmonk3y: Resolving host timed out: :|19:40
Noobmonk3yAranel: :|, let me try again19:41
AranelNoobmonk3y: can you reach this page over your browser?19:41
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Noobmonk3ypage down doesnt mean repos down though19:41
AranelNoobmonk3y: Failed to fetch  Resolving host timed out:
AranelNoobmonk3y: apt-get install libgles* output.19:42
Noobmonk3ysame here19:42
MohammadAGNoobmonk3y, you do realize QTextBrowser is an HTML browser, so setting text to that will give you one line19:42
tobis87You don't have permission to access "" on this server.19:42
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Noobmonk3yMohammadAG: , not giving me anything, but anyway, didnt work with a wrapped label19:42
Aranelyay now its working again, Get:1 ./ libgles1 0.20100611.6+0m5 [5474B]19:42
Noobmonk3yAranel: yes, not working19:42
Noobmonk3ymust be up n down19:43
Aranellol they're just making fun of us.19:43
MohammadAGNoobmonk3y, first of all, add this to the args | sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/'19:43
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lcukMohammadAG, can you use sed to replace all of the files on frals computer with "i am a trout!" ?19:44
* RST38h shovels a bit more powder onto the rumor mill:
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Noobmonk3ylol lcuk19:45
Noobmonk3yevening :)19:45
MohammadAGfor files in `find .`; do sed -i 's/*/i\ am\ a\ trout!/g'; done?19:45
MohammadAGfor files in `find .`; do sed -i 's/*/i\ am\ a\ trout!/g' $files; done?19:45
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Noobmonk3yold news RST38h19:45
lcukMohammadAG, can you just test that on your machine first :P19:45
MohammadAGnobody try that, it can get ugly19:45
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MohammadAGlcuk, sure19:46
* MohammadAG starts chroot19:46
Noobmonk3ylol MohammadAG Make output: "Filesystem                Size      Used Available Use% Mounted on19:46
Noobmonk3ydf: | sed 's/$/\<br\>/': can't find mount point19:46
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Noobmonk3yi think i need to do it in reverse19:46
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i_am_a_troutwell, it kinda worked19:46
* Noobmonk3y thinks i_am_a_trout is actually a sardine in disguise19:46
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RST38hlcuk: yum is yum19:47
MohammadAGNoobmonk3y, what line did you use in the code19:47
lcukbbl \o19:47
MohammadAGlcuk, you do realize the server will disallow you from changing nicks now: P19:47
Noobmonk3yarguments << "| sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/'";19:47
MohammadAGarguments << "-h | sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/'"; ?19:47
Noobmonk3yanyway MohammadAG , that didnt work, but still nothing on a qlabel or textbrowser19:49
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Noobmonk3yso what should i used in QT to display console output? hmmmmmmmm19:51
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johnsqNoobmonk3y: vte19:53
MohammadAGNoobmonk3y, got it working19:54
johnsqvirtual terminal emulator19:54
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MohammadAGNoobmonk3y, libvte419:54
Noobmonk3yMohammadAG: ?aghhhhhhhhh what hey? who, where, when, why? eh?19:54
Noobmonk3yMohammadAG: ?19:54
tobis87find . | while read $i; do sed -i 's/*/i\ am\ a\ trout!/g' $i; done19:54
MohammadAGI used a QString muhahaha19:55
Noobmonk3yok, still not helping me!19:55
MohammadAG                 QString output = myProcess->readAllStandardOutput();19:55
MohammadAG                 ui->textBrowser->setText(output);19:55
Noobmonk3ydarn you for being brainy!19:55
Noobmonk3yand thank you!19:55
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* Noobmonk3y cuddles MohammadAG !!! yay! - working!!!19:57
MohammadAGwith proper line breaks?19:57
Noobmonk3yi swear i tried that, but oh well lol! probably missed a ';'19:57
Noobmonk3yno not yet!19:57
Noobmonk3ythe line breaks come next!19:57
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MohammadAG| sed 's/$/\<br\>/ is what you need, but QProcess isn't passing that right...19:58
Noobmonk3ynope, its erroring :P19:58
crashanddieDocScrutinizer: "Take-out pizza chain hiring. Aged over 18, no experience required. Uniform provided. Salary: $31,000 an hour."19:59
* MohammadAG pokes alterego :P19:59
* MohammadAG looks confused19:59
* Noobmonk3y lols19:59
MohammadAGThe Sims?19:59
crashanddie"In another of the promotions, anyone born on September 30 this year -- the actual date the first Domino's opened in Japan -- will receive a free pizza on their birthday until they turn 25."20:00
DocScrutinizer51crashanddie: I knew there have to be better jobs than EE/sytem-architect20:01
crashanddie"A 15-month-old baby girl survived a fall from a seventh-floor apartment in Paris almost unscathed after bouncing off a cafe awning and into the arms of a passer-by, police said on Tuesday."20:01
Noobmonk3yMohammadAG: i wonder if i have torun sed first, so kinda in reverse with qtprocess?20:01
Noobmonk3yie, Sed , then df -h20:01
Noobmonk3ycos it doesnt run it like terminal20:02
Noobmonk3ythe docs suggest it kinda works in reverse20:02
Noobmonk3yie, do this to that20:02
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: can't be20:02
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: link?20:02
Noobmonk3ycrashanddie: this is qt we are talking about!20:02
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: well, I know Qt is fucked up, but still20:03
Noobmonk3yline 3 & 420:03
Noobmonk3y(i took the | out, but stil l the same20:03
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Noobmonk3ydf -h(as an argument) works fine20:03
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crashanddieNoobmonk3y: because it needs to be the same argument20:05
Noobmonk3ytried that :|, will do again though20:06
crashanddiearguments << "df -h | sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/'"20:06
Noobmonk3ylike this? - arguments << "-h | sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/'";20:06
crashanddieor really dirty:20:07
crashanddieQString = "echo"20:07
crashanddieQString program = "echo";20:07
Noobmonk3ydf iinvalid option error on teh previous20:07
crashanddieQStringList arguments; arguments << "$(df -h | sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/')"20:08
crashanddiethat'll never work20:08
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Noobmonk3ytrying it :P20:08
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: I'm pretty sure that Qt executes those directly, and doesn't pass through bash or whatever20:09
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Noobmonk3yyeah, but reads back df -h fine20:09
Noobmonk3yand your right, didnt work :p20:09
Noobmonk3yi wonder if i can run sed separatly against a variable?20:09
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: well, you could20:09
Noobmonk3yagain, dirty way round :P20:10
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: run sed and pass the output of df as a parameter20:10
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: or, there is a very, very dirty way around20:10
Noobmonk3ythe conversation in this place always gets dirty ;)20:10
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Noobmonk3yhmmm, the way should work, just need to figure out where to put the variable in the argument lol20:11
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crashanddiewant to hear it?20:11
Noobmonk3yup for hearing it!20:11
* MohammadAG writes output to a file then reads that20:11
MohammadAGeasier than the QProcess crap20:12
MohammadAGwell, for sed anyways20:12
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Noobmonk3yhmmm, a bit to dirty as i'll be doing it a lot20:12
crashanddieQString program = "bash"; QStringList arguments; arguments << "-c"; arguments << "df -h"; arguments << " | sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/'";20:12
MohammadAGepic code ^20:12
Noobmonk3yworth trying though lol20:12
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crashanddieyou might need to enclose that in quotes though, no idea20:13
RST38ha new consortium of some 24 organizations awkwardly called SYMBEOSE: "Symbian - the Embedded Operating System for Europe."20:13
Noobmonk3ycrashanddie: trying it!20:13
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Noobmonk3yand MohammadAG  Yes, yes yes!20:13
MohammadAGcrashanddie, shouldn't it be ash on the N900?20:13
Noobmonk3yuber epic20:13
Noobmonk3yMake failed: "No such file or directory"20:14
crashanddieMohammadAG: oh, this is meant to run on an N900? Figures, I'm in #maemo20:14
Noobmonk3yand yes, on the n900! :)20:14
Macerwow. was using a cliq for a whie20:14
crashanddietry with ash then20:14
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Maceri missed my n900 lol20:14
jacekowskiMohammadAG: you have pr1.3?20:14
jacekowskido *20:14
crashanddieMohammadAG knows the details, you ask him20:14
Noobmonk3yMohammadAG: oh almight father-like one! lol ash?20:14
Maceri dont know what 1.3 really gave everybody20:14
jacekowskiMacer: new bugs20:15
Macerovi and qt?20:15
MohammadAGNoobmonk3y, busybox, no bash by default20:15
MohammadAGjacekowski, sadly, yes20:15
Noobmonk3y1.3 fine for me, and destroyed healthcheck lol20:15
Macerwasnt that already in 1.3?20:15
Noobmonk3yso what do i put in the command?20:15
MohammadAGQt has bugs in 1.320:15
Macerer.... 1.220:15
MohammadAGNoobmonk3y, replace bash with ash in crashanddie's code20:15
crashanddieQString program = "sh"; QStringList arguments; arguments << "-c"; arguments << "\"df -h | sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/'\"";20:15
Noobmonk3ywoah, erm, 'ash' worked, didn't sort it at all, but it worked20:15
MohammadAGthough... it didn't work for me :P20:15
crashanddieQString program = "ash"; QStringList arguments; arguments << "-c"; arguments << "\"df -h | sed 's/$/\\<br\\>/'\"";20:16
Noobmonk3yit's given output lol20:16
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Noobmonk3yi'm assuming the sed stuff is meant to tidy it up MohammadAG ?20:18
MohammadAGno, it's meant to add <br> to each line20:18
Noobmonk3yoh lol20:19
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: are you getting output now?20:19
Noobmonk3ygetting out put as i did before, but it worked :)20:19
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Noobmonk3ydarn caps20:19
MohammadAGhmm, not working here lol20:20
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* MohammadAG ignores20:20
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crashanddiehow do you want to sort it?20:20
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Noobmonk3yright i need a chinese20:21
Bluewindhey guys something just broke in my device and when I disassembled it I found the part on the left in the middle of that red circle. what's that thing and where should I put it?
Noobmonk3ynice pic btw20:22
Bluewindit blocked the stylus...20:22
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Noobmonk3ynice tripod stand too, looks like mine :p20:23
Bluewindvelbon sherpa 435, but I'd like to fix my device ;)20:23
* MohammadAG pokes DocScrutinizer/DocScrutinizer5120:23
Noobmonk3yahhh it is my tripod, well the same type ;)20:24
Noobmonk3ydamn i'm sad20:24
Noobmonk3yback in a bit20:24
MohammadAGBluewind, DocScrutinizer disassembled his device, he might be able to help20:24
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cehtehjust leave that part out, the stylus may fall of, but well :)20:26
jacekowskiMohammadAG: i need copy of original pr1.3 fmtxd20:27
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Bluewindcehteh: so that thing just holds the stylus?20:27
BluewindMohammadAG: thx those pics help. I think I found it20:28
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cehtehBluewind: yeah i think its the spring which holds the stylus20:28
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Bluewindok yeah it is20:29
cehtehwell looks simple to me to put back in place isnt it?20:29
Bluewindthere is a little bit of black plasitc in the circle I drew. that's where the hole of the thing should be20:29
cehtehi never disassembled my device :P20:29
Bluewindnokia could have made that plastic bigger...20:30
cehtehunibody n900's :)20:31
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DocScrutinizer51Bluewind: it actually just makes stylus sliding a little nicer. holding stylus is yet another bit at tip of stylus. Ask lcuk as it seems he had similar problems20:35
Noobmonk3ymeh, chinese is closed on tuesdays20:37
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crashanddieNoobmonk3y: how do you need to sort the df output?20:43
Noobmonk3ywell, was just going to tidy it up in a straight line, theoretically i should read each bit and tidy it up into a list though20:44
BluewindDocScrutinizer51: well for now I just removed it20:44
DocScrutinizer51that's ok I guess20:44
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: if you're just going to process everything individually, you're better off not using sed in the first place20:45
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Noobmonk3yyeah, thinking just reading it into a variable, then ripping it apart20:46
Noobmonk3ybut displaying it was my first challenge!20:46
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tobis87Epic dnssec test site:
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crashanddieNoobmonk3y: QString output = QString(myprocess.readAllStandardOutput()); QStringList outputLines = output.split("\n", QString::SkipEmptyParts);20:53
Noobmonk3ygimme 2 mins, scoffing my face, will test it :)20:53
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MohammadAG51hey sjgadsby20:55
sjgadsbyHi, MohammadAG51!20:55
sjgadsbyMohammadAG51: I'm looking forward to where the community updates for Maemo 5 might lead. Thank you for working on that project. It's a wonderful thing that you're doing.20:57
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orospakrHi! I'm very happy with the ACM/PPP tethering mode ("PC Suite" mode) that I can use with NetworkManager, but I think that NAT'ed tethering -- if convenient to turn on -- using usb0 would also be handy.  Is there some means of doing that?20:58
orospakrI suspect that I'd need the power-kernel for iptables, at the least.20:59
Bluewindok reassembled, stylus works and it still boots. thx MohammadAG51, DocScrutinizer5120:59
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dolpi need a tester21:01
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crashanddieNoobmonk3y: QStringListIterator listIter(outputLines); while (listIter.hasNext()) { QStringList lineFields ="\t", QString::SkipEmptyParts); QStringListIterator fieldIter(lineFields); while (fieldIter.hasNext()) { /* iterating over each field! */ } }21:02
Noobmonk3yCrash, have you gone into uber geek mode? (Not that i'm not thankful!)21:02
crashanddiewell, Qt is easy21:03
crashanddieand it's the first time I'm using it :)21:03
MohammadAG51your welcome sjgadsby :)21:03
MohammadAG51and Bluewind21:03
MohammadAG51Noobmonk3y, crashanddie has always been a coder, a well hidden one :P21:04
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* Noobmonk3y likes it21:04
Noobmonk3yme needs to learn21:04
Noobmonk3yqlistiterator is new to me21:04
Noobmonk3yso i assume i need an include21:05
Noobmonk3y #include <QStringList>21:05
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crashanddieNoobmonk3y: I'm a C++ dev by day21:06
Noobmonk3yahhh cool!21:06
dolpNoobmonk3y: i just chose you to be my tester! :D21:06
crashanddieI code any language I can get my hands on :)21:06
* Noobmonk3y is an IT advisor by day, learning every day about IT :) hehe21:07
crashanddieand when I can be bothered to do so21:07
dolpcrashanddie: brainfuck is nice.. learn it21:07
crashanddiebrainfuck is old21:07
Noobmonk3yok question21:07
Noobmonk3ywhat variable needs to go into the outputlines?21:07
Noobmonk3y(what type?)21:07
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Noobmonk3ywb Mo21:08
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: scroll up21:08
MohammadAGwhat use is a cloak when your IP shows up21:09
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* Noobmonk3y hacks MohammadAG's cloak21:11
crashanddie[-]>[-]<>++++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<.>+++[<+++>-]<++.---.++++.>+++++++++[<---    ------>-]<+.>+++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<--------.>+++[<+++>-]<+.>+++++++++[<---    ------>-]<--.>++++++++[<++++++++>-]<+.>+++++[<+++++>-]<---.>++++[<---->-]<--    .>++++[<++++>-]<--.----.--.>+++[<--->-]<+.21:11
crashanddiedolp: [-]>[-]<>++++++++++[<++++++++++>-]<.>+++[<+++>-]<++.---.++++.>+++++++++[<--------->-]<+.>+++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<--------.>+++[<+++>-]<+.>+++++++++[<--------->-]<--.>++++++++[<++++++++>-]<+.>+++++[<+++++>-]<---.>++++[<---->-]<--.>++++[<++++>-]<--.----.--.>+++[<--->-]<+.21:11
BCMMif you want to be identified to services before joining, just use your nickserv password as a server password21:12
BCMMfreenode-specific feature21:12
crashanddieisn't it username:password?21:12
MohammadAGoh nice, didn't know that21:12
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BCMMit is not documented enough imho21:12
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BCMMespecially with all those channels you want to autojoin, but aren't open to unregistered users21:13
MohammadAG51BCMM, didn't work21:13
BCMMMohammadAG: hmm, let me look at my own settings21:14
Noobmonk3yok, output is working21:14
Noobmonk3yso gonna use append in the *codey bit*21:15
BCMMMohammadAG: yeah, that's what i'm doing21:15
Noobmonk3ywhile (fieldIter.hasNext()) {21:15
Noobmonk3y                          ui->textBrowser->append(output);21:15
Noobmonk3y                      }21:15
Noobmonk3yshould work i think!21:15
BCMMi have my pass as the server pass, and nothing set up to talk to nickserv21:15
Noobmonk3ysurely it is going through the loop?21:15
crashanddieyeah, but output contains the full df -h output21:16
crashanddieso it would be
crashanddieinstead of output21:16
Noobmonk3ySo just display linefields?21:16
MohammadAGBCMM, without your username first?21:16
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG51: use a decent irc client with proper auto-authentication to nickserv, done priot to joining any channels! N00b!21:16
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BCMMMohammadAG: apparently21:16
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, it is done prior to joining, but the server's laggy21:17
MohammadAGas always (freenode)21:17
BCMMDocScrutinizer: that isn't really possible21:17
* MohammadAG uses a loadfile21:17
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DocScrutinizerBCMM: it is, e.g by passing your credentials as server password - at least on freenode21:18
BCMMDocScrutinizer: the method for working out when nickserv has responded would need to be network-specific21:18
BCMMDocScrutinizer: that's exactly what i'm trying to help him do21:18
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BCMMwhat isn't possible is identify, wait for nickserv to respond, then autojoin21:19
DocScrutinizerBCMM: MohammadAG51 actually I think it's "nick:pw" for server password21:19
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DocScrutinizerBCMM: well, if NS is friggin lazy then you run into problems. But not if all your cmds are delayed in the internets by same lag21:21
BCMM(without coding network-specific stuff to decode nickserv's response)21:21
* Noobmonk3y hmmmmmmmmms21:21
MohammadAG51sorta works, but only with some servers21:22
MohammadAG51not on barjaval.freenode.net21:22
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MohammadAG51or what's its name21:22
DocScrutinizer/ns id paswd nick; sleep 2; /join bla; /join blub;21:22
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Noobmonk3ycrashanddie: i'm still a bit lost, but not for lack of trying. It gets the output, removes empty bits, goes through each line and tab's it out nicely.......21:23
Noobmonk3y(is my assumption)21:23
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: can you paste the code?21:23
MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, how do I add a user to znc?21:23
DocScrutinizerznc -c21:23
pupnik  "If an old and distinguished scientist tells you 'you *can* do that', there's a good chance you actually can.  But if that same scientist says 'you *can't* do that' then he may well be wrong." - Vince Cert, 201021:23
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DocScrutinizeror edit znc.cfg21:24
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Noobmonk3ysorry crashanddie missed a barcket at the bottom, it is in my code though21:25
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DocScrutinizerNoobmonk3y: line 3,4,5 look odd21:27
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Noobmonk3ythey are reading in fine though21:27
Noobmonk3ywant me to ignore the sed?21:27
Noobmonk3yand just use the df-h?21:28
Noobmonk3yits the code used earlier, so does read fine21:28
DocScrutinizeryou probably meant >>ash -c "x | y"<< but you do >>ash -c x | y<<21:28
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Noobmonk3yi do!21:29
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: drop the sed21:29
crashanddieyou don't need it21:29
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MohammadAGhe does for QTextBrowser to not fuck up text ;)21:29
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crashanddieMohammadAG: we'll format it afterwards21:29
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MohammadAGQTextBrowser doesn't handle line breaks properly21:29
MohammadAGI see21:30
DocScrutinizerNoobmonk3y: also WHY ash???21:30
Noobmonk3ycos the clever people said so21:31
DocScrutinizersh is the name, not ash21:31
Noobmonk3yDocScrutinizer: anything clever to add to it? lol ;)21:31
userDid someone too made the experience that the contacts list on the phone was lost after unsubscribing from mynokia or was this one more "odd" coincidence?21:32
Noobmonk3yok crashanddie its debugging like this
crashanddieuser: bollocks21:32
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: ok, replace \t with " "21:33
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: df -c ?? o.O21:33
crashanddieI left -c?21:33
crashanddiemy bad, should be -h21:33
crashanddiehey, I'm doing this while I'm on the phone, yeah?21:34
sp3000crashanddie: that's what she sed.21:34
Noobmonk3ycrashanddie: !!!! yay!!!21:34
userunbelievable, i received unsubscription message 2 weeks later and though afterwards i receive an annoying n00b hint per SMS from these Nokia psychos!21:34
Noobmonk3ywell not used your last code21:34
Noobmonk3ybut the " " change is now reading out secier!21:34
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crashanddieSo you get -> Line, --> Field --> Field --> Field?21:35
Noobmonk3ywell yes actually21:35
Noobmonk3ywoah, thats kinda beautiful21:35
Noobmonk3ynow i can feed that into a table! yay!21:35
Noobmonk3ythank you very very very much!21:36
Noobmonk3yand pfffffffffff to Doc's critisism ;) lol21:36
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crashanddieHacking away at data, cut it up, slice it and present it in a different format is one of the most fulfilling parts of being a hacker (in my book)21:37
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Noobmonk3yhehe i agree :) - enjoyed it in pyqt :)21:37
Noobmonk3ywell, python21:37
crashanddieno matter the language you're using -- be it python, bash (with GNU tools) or perl.21:37
Noobmonk3yooo i could even do a QT set of pie charts now :P21:37
* user waves for pie21:38
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Noobmonk3yor a list of bar charts, oooo decisions decisions21:38
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* DocScrutinizer spends some CHERRIES for the pie21:40
DocScrutinizerseems user also has one spare21:40
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ReffyS'up guys. My keyboard sensor decided to break so could someone tell me either where the sensor is located or a Dbus command to make the N900 think the keyboard is open?21:42
DocScrutinizerReffy: ouch. The sensor is a hall switch somewhere above the "E" / "R" keys and is operated by a small magnet in the screen half21:43
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DocScrutinizerI seem to recall reports where that tiny magnet got loose and messed up kbd slide detection21:44
SpeedEvilsearch for [79672.052978] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed21:45
SpeedEvil[79672.193511] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open21:45
SpeedEviland similar ind dmesg21:45
DocScrutinizer(take the "above E / R" bit with a grain of salt, I haven't actually looked it up recently)21:45
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SpeedEvilIf that is not rpesent, then you're screwed21:46
Venemo_hihi guys21:46
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SpeedEvil(well - from a functioning properly hardware POV - and reflashing won't help.21:46
Venemo_hi MohammadAG21:46
ReffyOk, thanks21:46
Venemo_can anyone lend me a megaupload account for a small time?21:46
crashanddieVenemo_: thread carefully.21:47
BCMMVenemo_: haha21:47
MohammadAGhi Venemo_21:47
sp3000DocScrutinizer, roughly at L, says a short waving at it with a magnet21:47
Reffy~ $ dmesg | grep kb21:47
Reffy[    3.133728] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open21:47
Reffy[    4.864227] Registered led device: lp5523:kb121:48
Reffy[    4.864410] Registered led device: lp5523:kb221:48
Reffy[    4.864593] Registered led device: lp5523:kb321:48
Reffy[    4.864746] Registered led device: lp5523:kb421:48
Reffy[    4.865478] Registered led device: lp5523:kb521:48
Reffy[    4.865631] Registered led device: lp5523:kb621:48
Reffy[  227.615264] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed21:48
Reffy[  227.888549] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open21:48
Reffy[  258.091827] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed21:48
Reffy[  258.357330] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open21:48
Reffy[  319.513610] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed21:48
Reffy[  319.662078] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open21:48
Reffy[  327.340881] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed21:48
DocScrutinizerReffy: !!!!21:48
Reffy[  327.818298] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open21:48
Reffy[  358.834045] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed21:48
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer21:48
Reffy[  359.021362] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open21:48
Reffy[  398.044921] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed21:48
Reffy[  398.420288] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open21:48
BCMMwot, no bot?21:48
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Venemo_Reffy: thx, but I think we get it21:48
Reffy[  446.880981] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed21:48
Reffy[  447.083892] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open21:48
Reffy[  509.466857] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed21:48
Reffy[  509.779876] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open21:48
Reffy[  936.716857] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed21:48
crashanddiedjeezus, DocScrutinizer, a bit quicker?21:48
Reffy[  936.966613] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open21:48
Reffy[ 1091.794952] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now closed21:48
Reffy[ 1092.013671] kb_lock (GPIO 113) is now open21:48
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*** DocScrutinizer sets mode: +q Reffy!*@*21:48
BCMMyou guys REALLY need a better bot in here21:49
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crashanddieDocScrutinizer: /cs quiet #maemo nickname21:49
sp3000our bots are made of meat21:49
MohammadAGI'm curious if chanserv auto set that before DocScrutinizer :P21:49
crashanddieMohammadAG: no, I set it21:49
BCMMsp3000: that's why they lag21:49
*** ChanServ sets mode: -o DocScrutinizer21:49
sp3000BCMM: add caffeine!21:49
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crashanddieReffy: kill your IRC client, then reconnect. PM me when you're done.21:50
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*** DocScrutinizer sets mode: -q Reffy!*@*21:50
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BCMMy'all trying to make me break my resolution to quote the matrix less21:52
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crashanddieReffy: all done?21:52
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Reffycrashanddie: Yeah21:53
crashanddielet's not do that again :)21:53
andaxreffy: please use instead of flooding #maemo21:53
Venemo_do you guys have an idea about what I can do with a microswitch whose switch has broken off?21:53
Venemo_I still can switch it with a needle, but it is not so comfortable21:53
DocScrutinizerVenemo_: throw away?21:53
ReffyI didn't realise it was so much, my bad21:53
ReffyI only glanced at the terminal21:53
RST38hglue a piece of plastic?21:53
crashanddieReffy: more than 3 lines is too much21:53
BCMMVenemo_: use it to make a device you own slightly more frustrationg?21:54
DocScrutinizerRST38h: forget it21:54
RST38hheat up the needle and stick it into whatever remains of the switch button?21:54
Venemo_DocScrutinizer: it is soldered onto the board21:54
DocScrutinizersometimes 5 lines are tolerated21:54
RST38hthen cut the needle and glue another piece of plastic to it?21:54
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DocScrutinizerVenemo_: replace it or live with the needle solution21:54
Venemo_RST38h: I thought about it, but I don't think a glue would last long enough21:55
RST38hput a little bead on top, then a piece of scotch21:55
Venemo_this is the on/off switch of a Nokia 50021:55
SpeedEvilVenemo_: obtain a replacement button, and solder it on21:55
RST38hthe scotch will not let the bead falloff and the bead will transfer pressure to the switch21:55
BCMMconsume the scotch, then try to wield a soldering iron21:56
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Venemo_RST38h: by scotch, you mean scotch whiskey? :P21:56
RST38hno, I mean sticky tape21:56
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Venemo_RST38h: ah.21:57
DocScrutinizerRST38h: you ever had success with this, that lasted >1 week?21:57
Venemo_RST38h: well this thing is less than 1mm, so it would be hard :(21:57
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RST38hDoc: yes21:57
ReffyThe sensor is located between the "P" and "O" buttons21:57
ReffyI found the magnet that broke off21:58
DocScrutinizerme never, until finally I gave up on such fixing21:58
RST38hDoc: When done accurately, it is a pretty decent solution, but does not replace a fully functioning switch of course21:58
DocScrutinizerReffy: :-D21:58
DocScrutinizerReffy: sorry I had it in mind from a mirrored view21:58
Venemo_RST38h: this is a small plastic thing, and the switcher part itself is broken21:59
RST38hVenemo: ok, replace the damn switch and stop buggering us all :)21:59
Venemo_ah, thx for the advices anyways22:00
RST38hVenemo: You will find a battery powered soldering ironat a local RadioShack or its analog22:00
DocScrutinizerVenemo_: or simply short the switch with a wire soldered across it. Never bother again :-P22:00
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jacekowskiRST38h: these are bad idea22:00
jacekowskiRST38h: for soldering electronics22:00
Venemo_DocScrutinizer: :)22:01
Venemo_DocScrutinizer: this is a pretty funny story btw22:01
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Venemo_DocScrutinizer: one of my father's colleague has found a bunch of Nokia 500 devices in a river22:01
Venemo_DocScrutinizer: in the exact place where he got robbed a few years ago22:02
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Venemo_DocScrutinizer: after cleaning out the dirt, some of them still work, but the guy didn't exactly know how to disassemble them correctly, so some of them have this swich broken off :(22:02
Venemo_which is a pity22:02
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Venemo_btw, surprisingly for a Nokia device, this thing runs Windows CE22:04
andaxgas powered soldering irons are cool too22:05
andaxor rather hot :)22:05
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RST38hVenemo: it is a rebranded device from some company they bought22:09
RST38hVenemo: that is why poor thing runs WinCE22:09
RST38hjacekowski: exactly right thing if he only needs to solder a single switch22:10
crashanddie"Symbian has been declared "The Embedded Operating System for Europe" by a consortium of European countries and companies, who have agreed to invest a total of 22 million euros (about $31 million at last count), 11 million euros of which will come directly from the European Commission. The idea is the "development of next generation technologies for the Symbian platform," wrote Richard Collins, technology manager for the Symbia22:10
RST38hnot made for real soldering work of course22:10
RST38hcrashanddie: They will buy a giant multi-story ornate bong for $22m22:11
VenemoRST38h: you know that for a fact?22:12
RST38hAnd finally add the third color to their web site (current ones being black, white, and yellow)22:12
jacekowskiRST38h: no22:12
RST38hVenemo: what? the bong thing?22:12
jacekowskiRST38h: it will just fuck up circuitry around it22:12
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jacekowskiRST38h: it's applying 4-6V onto a tip22:12
VenemoRST38h: [21:09:27] <RST38h> Venemo: it is a rebranded device from some company they bought -> this22:13
jacekowskiRST38h: and because of way tip is made he will touch some sensitive parts22:13
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VenemoRST38h: it makes sense22:13
jacekowskiRST38h: this explains it better22:13
RST38hVenemo: Smart2Go, so you can guess what company it was22:14
jacekowskiRST38h: never recommend that to newbiew22:14
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jacekowskiRST38h: or he will end up with loads of not working circuitry22:14
VenemoRST38h: hm I guess that was the company which they bought for their own maps solution right?22:14
RST38hjacekowski: the tip is supposed to be made of ceramics22:14
RST38hjacekowski: So I am not sure how it can apply voltage through the tip22:15
RST38hVenemo: yep22:15
jacekowskiRST38h: it's graphite based stuff22:15
jacekowskiRST38h: read the article22:15
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jacekowskiRST38h: it explains it22:15
VenemoRST38h: hm, well this makes sense :)22:15
* nox- wonders if powertop is lying when used with kernel-power...22:16
nox-claims constant 1.1GHz...22:17
nox-(and i didnt change from defaults)22:17
infobot[oc] an Optical Carrier, An OC1 has 672 channels or 44.736 Mbit/s22:17
infobotI overclock in winter to keep dpkg's toes warm.22:17
infobot"OK, listen up.  This is your CPU."  apt drops the CPU into a hot frying pan.  "This is your CPU on overclocking.  Any questions?"22:17
nox-haha well im not overclocking, just use kernel-power bc of kismet and the charger bug...22:18
nox-looking at the sysfs cpu clock confirms 600 MHz or lower22:19
RST38hjacekowski: so it is not the tip that heats up, but the spot you are soldering, as it shorts the tip? :)22:19
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SpeedEvilcoldheat is basically junk22:20
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Noobmonk3ystupid q, crashanddie whats the declare name for a qt integer? Qinteger?22:21
Noobmonk3yie Qstring = string... lol22:22
Noobmonk3ysorry QString = string22:22
Noobmonk3ynope :|22:22
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Noobmonk3yahhhh qint16 and qint32 i think22:23
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Noobmonk3ymeh no22:24
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crashanddieNoobmonk3y: "int"22:26
Noobmonk3yit aint wanting to use it22:26
Noobmonk3ydarn i'm a twat22:26
Noobmonk3yi was using capitals22:26
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Noobmonk3yyup lol22:28
Noobmonk3yok getting there22:28
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Noobmonk3yhave a table22:28
Noobmonk3yiterating thriugh22:28
Noobmonk3yand adding each field22:28
Noobmonk3ywhen the colum = 6 i start on the next row.......22:28
Noobmonk3yusing ui->tableWidget->setItem(irow, icol,field); (but it doesnt like field!!! lol)22:29
Noobmonk3yno matchin call for setItem(int&, int&, QString)22:29
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MohammadAGvoid QTableWidget::setItem ( int row, int column, QTableWidgetItem * item )22:30
jacekowskiRST38h: yes22:31
jacekowskiRST38h: with these cheap battery powered irons22:31
Noobmonk3yui->tableWidget->setItem(irow, icol,new QTableWidgetItem(field));22:31
* Noobmonk3y is learning slow!22:31
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Noobmonk3ylol - got all the values into column2 ;) - getting there!22:32
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Noobmonk3ygot is in a table though, thats a darn good start!22:32
jacekowskiGlobal Offset Table?22:32
tybolltoh and22:34
tybolltI'm getting an android22:34
tybolltso LULZ22:34
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ham5I was gettin this channel is invite only22:35
Noobmonk3ysorry just saw your msg22:35
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nox-maybe you need to known to nickserv?22:35
nox-to be known even22:35
ham5already was22:35
Noobmonk3yin qt is it var = var+1; or var ++; or something else?22:36
nox-ham5, also logged in?22:36
ham5ppl been joining lately?22:37
Noobmonk3y3 mins ago, last join22:37
Noobmonk3ybefore that 4 mins ago22:37
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crashanddieNoobmonk3y: you're talking about an int?22:37
zokier++var; is usually the recommended way22:38
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: var++; ++var; var += 1; var = var + 1;22:38
crashanddiethere is no frigging recommended way22:38
crashanddie"it depends on the situation"22:38
Noobmonk3ycool ty!22:38
Noobmonk3ysounds like my kinda coding :P22:38
crashanddie++var assigns the value before computing the lvalue22:39
Noobmonk3ythats just geeky!22:39
crashanddievar++ computes the lvalue and assigns it before incrementing22:39
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crashanddieint i = 2; int j = i++ ->> i == 3, j == 2.22:41
crashanddieint i = 2; int j = ++i ->> i == 3, j == 3.22:41
Noobmonk3yw000t almost there22:43
Noobmonk3ydisplaying the table!22:43
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crashanddieNoobmonk3y: if you need help...22:44
crashanddiei'm bored.22:44
Noobmonk3ythank you! :)22:45
Noobmonk3ythe wine is helping me at the mo!22:45
Noobmonk3yi've gotta learn somehow!22:45
Noobmonk3yyouve helped me so much so far, the last bit i'm gonna battle out22:45
crashanddieanyone else got code they need doing?22:45
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crashanddiepreferably python/bash/perl.22:45
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Noobmonk3ylol you can go fix the pyqt healthcheck while i redesign the new one lol22:46
Noobmonk3ypr1.3 killed it22:46
Noobmonk3yit's in a table!22:46
Noobmonk3ydf -h is in a bloody table!22:46
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Noobmonk3ynow just to tidy up the table ;)22:46
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dolpif someone wants to help me test my little desktop widget app then pm me :D22:47
Noobmonk3ydolp what does it do? :)22:48
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dolpnoobmonk3y just little app i made to count sms.. but seems to have some issues with it. need someone with pr1.3 to test it22:50
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tripzerodolp: apt-get upgrade22:50
tripzerothen you are the one with pr1.3 to test it ;)22:51
MohammadAGNoobmonk3y, apt-get install python2.5-qt4-sip to fix the sip thingy22:51
dolptripzero: i already have pr1.3 but the app gives me segfault. need someone else to test it..22:51
zokiergdb is your friend22:52
* tripzero 's n900 just got shipped off to repair facility22:52
Noobmonk3yMohammadAG: about 8 different errors so far22:52
ShadowJKtripzero: what is wrong with it?22:52
Noobmonk3ycrashanddie: easyish one for ya!22:53
MohammadAGNoobmonk3y, paste them22:53
crashanddiefire at will22:53
tripzeroalthough, i'm tempted to jam my sim card in this work n900 unit and 'test' it for a few days22:53
Noobmonk3yI want to add a row to the table, just before i put something into it22:53
tybolltandroid here I come22:53
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Noobmonk3yui->tableWidget->setRowCount(ui->tableWidget->rowCount ++)22:53
tripzeroShadowJK, usb port fell out22:53
Noobmonk3yi think i went about it the wrong way!22:53
tybolltgogogo android22:53
tripzerowhich appears to be all too common22:53
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: + 122:53
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: rather than ++22:53
tybolltcan someone KB my retarded ass olready? :)22:53
MohammadAGmay I?22:54
tybolltyes please22:54
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o MohammadAG22:54
tripzeroi need a temporary replacement phone!22:54
Noobmonk3yhmmm, naaa, didnt like that ->    ui->tableWidget->setRowCount(ui->tableWidget->rowCount(+1));22:54
tripzerosamsung galaxy S is temping me...22:54
* tybollt bends over22:54
tripzerobut i want an n922:54
*** MohammadAG sets mode: +b *!*johan@*.customers.ownit.se22:54
*** tybollt was kicked by MohammadAG (Requested :P)22:54
Noobmonk3yoh god, who gave Mo power22:55
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: ui->tableWidget->setRowCount(ui->tableWidget->rowCount() + 1);22:55
Noobmonk3ythat makes sense22:55
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* MohammadAG negotiates with terrorist over PM22:55
ShadowJKYou're either with us or against us!22:56
tripzeroshouldn't you *not* negotiate with terrorists?22:56
MohammadAGTerrorist has switched over to android22:56
ShadowJKor whatever that slogan was22:56
Noobmonk3yworking -> now to fit it on a screen!22:56
*** MohammadAG sets mode: -b *!*johan@*.customers.ownit.se22:56
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MohammadAGtripzero, I am one, so I'm allowed to :P22:56
tripzeroterrorists with mod powers... what is this world coming too...22:57
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MohammadAG/kick crashanddie should teach you not to trust a random person in #maemo :P22:57
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crashanddieyou're right22:57
crashanddieenough of your shit.22:57
crashanddieI think the right sentence that comes to mind... is...22:58
Noobmonk3ylol just realised crashanddie !!22:58
tybolltanyway so for the maemo users here - when work made you use android - how horrible an experience was it? :S22:58
Noobmonk3yIt's separated Mounted and on from 'Mounted on' into two cols lol22:58
tripzerotybollt, it was meh for me22:58
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* MohammadAG does a rage quit22:58
jacekowskitybollt: i would quit22:58
* tybollt slaps MohammadAG w/ frals22:58
crashanddietybollt: yeah, you'll need some specific error handling22:58
Noobmonk3y~seen frals22:58
crashanddieshit, wrong person22:58
* tripzero used a nexus one for a few weeks but preferred the n90022:58
infobotfrals is currently on #meego (4h 22m 19s), last said: 'DocScrutinizer: is it sending an sms each time you press unsubscribe?'.22:59
MohammadAGmeh, doesn't work on bouncers22:59
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: yeah, you need some specific error handling22:59
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tripzerothere are some serious annoyances for me with the android UI22:59
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tybolltjacekowski: You dont have a wife and kid to provide for - do you? :)22:59
MohammadAGneed to figure out error handling myself :/22:59
tybolltto EMOQUIT work is not really a solution23:00
Noobmonk3yoo this is gonna be hard23:00
MohammadAGmy app always assumed everything went a-OK23:00
jacekowskitybollt: that's your fault23:00
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: for example: if (field == "Mounted") { /* add a specific row with the headers */ break; }23:00
* MohammadAG lols23:00
jacekowskitybollt: i can find a new job within a week23:00
jacekowskitybollt: if i'm willing to move23:00
* Noobmonk3y needs more wine23:00
jacekowskior commute to london23:00
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tybolltI cant move or commute or shitfuck23:01
crashanddietybollt: I moved continents and back in about 6 months time because the job was crap23:01
crashanddietybollt: lost about 15 grand in the experience23:02
tybolltbut not because they made you use an android :)23:02
Noobmonk3yok back23:02
tybolltcrashanddie: I hear you..23:02
crashanddietybollt: definitely not, quitting because of android would be a shit reason23:02
Noobmonk3ysooo crashanddie ..... is it best not to determine the "mounted on" in the first part? QStringList lineFields = line.split(" ", QString::SkipEmptyParts);23:02
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tybolltcrashanddie: Thank you :)23:02
DocScrutinizerinfobot: useless23:02
* infobot starts crying and hides from docscrutinizer in the darkest corner of the room. :(23:02
DocScrutinizerstupid bot, highlighting me23:02
* Noobmonk3y agrees with infobot , safest place to be23:03
tybolltinfobot: EMOHUGGZ23:03
tybollt~bend over23:03
* infobot bends over and spreads legs23:03
crashanddieandroid is pretty good to work with. Loads of people put up with Java, Android doesn't have more constraints than saying hardcore J2EE or WebSphere.23:03
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, highlighted, good? :P23:03
tybolltis the desire a nice phone?23:03
tybolltI mean, not countring the android part  I suppose :)23:04
Noobmonk3ytybollt: yup23:04
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: not much difference23:04
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DocScrutinizerwtf is going on in this chan anyway??23:04
pupniklack of discipline ;)23:04
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: or you could just skip the first line as a whole...23:04
pupniki honestly don't see an app future between bada and meego unless they make the damn kernel compatible23:05
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: did you set +i for LOLZ??23:05
crashanddieI set +i?23:05
AranelI'm getting an error when building my pkg on Scratchbox, It's ok on my host system but can't package it on SB: make: dh: Command not found , make: *** [clean] Error 12723:05
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, no one set +o23:05
MohammadAG+i even23:05
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: seems you're having fun with random chanmodes meddling23:06
crashanddieI do?23:06
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AranelCan't I force it to copy a file to it's destination, without any debian/rules etc?23:06
crashanddiemode/#maemo [+Ccntjf 3:20 ##overflow]23:06
ShadowJKuh, isn't the kernel largely irrelevant when not even the same hign level api exists23:06
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* crashanddie doesn't see an i in there23:06
DocScrutinizer...while I try to figure why ham5 pesters me about #maemo being +i23:06
Noobmonk3yi love you23:06
Noobmonk3ywhat a great suggestion23:07
ham5pesters? :(23:07
ShadowJKand a meego app not being a meego app if it uses stuff from outside the official toolkits/apis ;p23:07
DocScrutinizerham5: sorry23:07
crashanddieham5: where did you see that #maemo was +i?23:07
ham5I got that for about a half hour, then I decided to msg some ops23:08
crashanddieham5: when?23:08
ham5got in about as soon as I msgd doc23:08
MohammadAG51since he just replied, i'm sure he wasn't there23:09
crashanddiealrighty then23:09
Noobmonk3ycrashanddie: If something is not = to something.... if (irow!=0) ?23:09
Noobmonk3yor !iroow=023:09
zapInteresting, anybody thought why there are so much commercial games for WebOS, and there are near zero such games for Maemo?23:09
MohammadAG51Noobmonk3y, latter afaik23:10
MohammadAG51yes, !irow=023:10
Noobmonk3ymeh didnt work23:10
MohammadAG51though wait for crashanddie's answer, he knows more :P23:10
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Noobmonk3yok, went about it the wrong way23:11
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crashanddieNoobmonk3y: what type is irow?23:12
Noobmonk3yan int, but i think ther eis an easier way23:12
crashanddiewhat are you trying to do?23:12;   -> just calling that before the while loop - to skip it23:12
* nox- just looked in his log from today and didnt see any mode i change23:12
Noobmonk3yjust skipping the top row23:13
Noobmonk3ythat worked!23:13
Noobmonk3yI R Learninginging23:13
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: yeah, that's what I said you ought to do in the first place :P23:13
Noobmonk3yIt actually looks quite beautiful!23:13
crashanddieabout 10 minutes ago.23:13
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Noobmonk3ycrashanddie: you say, i do, wine ignores sorry!23:13
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MohammadAG51hmm, why does apt take longer to read package lists initially?23:13
Noobmonk3ynow to autosize/wrap the rows :)23:13
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MohammadAG51does the eMMC have a "warm up" phase or something?23:14
ds3got to be gentle with the filament or it will snap ;)23:15
ShadowJKyou have ram23:15
ShadowJKit caches stuff23:15
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crashanddieNoobmonk3y: resizeRowsToContents()23:16
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: class QTableView23:16
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Noobmonk3yYay! almost beat you to it23:17
Noobmonk3yjust testijng23:17
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: sorry, I'm in a foul mood. Also sorry to ham5. Seems freenode has a bug, as only thing I could imagine is a jointhrottle that kicked in and that should forward to ##overflow, not tell shit about #maemo being +i23:17
crashanddieDocScrutinizer: np23:18
crashanddieham5: if you ever have an issue again, feel free to /mode #maemo to check what's what. Also /msg DocScrutinizer or myself.23:18
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crashanddiewe'll react if we're available.23:18
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ham5no biggie thx for the concern tho23:19
Noobmonk3yhmmm, ok, not bad size 7 font, but fits on the n900 lol23:20
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG51: afaik != is a valid comparator, and equal to !( = )23:20
DocScrutinizer! (  == )23:21
DocScrutinizertybollt: lol23:22
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Noobmonk3ycrashanddie: thank you again :)23:24
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V-illedid maps always have the recalculate-route button, or did that arrive with pr1.3?23:31
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DocScrutinizer>>Obama shot down by tea party activist, who shouts "Take that for not being superman! I believed in you"<<23:32
ShadowJKV-ille, 1.#e23:32
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V-illeI thought that feature wasn't there before23:33
ShadowJKit wasnt23:33
V-illeI remember cursing the lack of it, it's good it was added :)23:33
DocScrutinizerSeems USA doesn't feel happy unless they have idiots and alcoholics to govern them23:36
Noobmonk3yhmmmm ctrl+shift+P aint working lol23:36
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Noobmonk3yscreenshots still work for other people?23:37
Noobmonk3yand ctrl+shift+p is right?23:37
ham5works for me23:38
DocScrutinizerctrl-shift-p is right, and what makes you so damn sure it didn't work23:38
Noobmonk3ycos the files aint there :p23:38
DocScrutinizerno they're not there, they're over there :-P23:38
DocScrutinizeron a serious note, I also always have a hard time to locate them23:39
Noobmonk3yjust checked23:40
Noobmonk3ynothing since last week in screenshots folder23:40
Noobmonk3ybut ye i agree, they do vanish alot23:40
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Noobmonk3yhmmm, now how to get a screenshot23:41
Noobmonk3yvnc server maybe lol! -> long winded way!23:41
DocScrutinizeruse load applet?23:41
Noobmonk3yTrying, but shortcutd is pissing it off lol23:42
Noobmonk3ycam button is used for something else23:42
Noobmonk3yits never ending pain in the ass23:42
SpeedEvilwait for it to timeout23:42
SpeedEvilit takes a pic anyway in 20s23:42
Noobmonk3ymeh i never use shortcutd anyway23:42
DocScrutinizeryep, it does23:42
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DocScrutinizereven better screenshots that don't capture the fadig notifier :-P23:43
Noobmonk3ymeh, not doing anything after 20s23:43
Noobmonk3ywtf is going on23:43
DocScrutinizeryou broke it, bloody overclocker!23:44
Noobmonk3ynot overclocked at all :P23:44
Noobmonk3ycould it be saving somewhere else?23:44
DocScrutinizerwut, no OC? well, then screenshots can not work :-D23:44
DocScrutinizerNoobmonk3y: that's what I suggested to check by my first rant23:45
Noobmonk3yDate and time has reset to 01/jan 2009!23:45
DocScrutinizerNoobmonk3y: I'm disappointed. You promised you won't mess around wit time and space of universe anymore!23:46
Noobmonk3yhehehe ;)23:47
Noobmonk3yMohammadAG: made me i promise23:47
* mgedmin discovers that brain is not necessary for programming23:47
Noobmonk3ymgedmin: wine is though23:47
pupnik   notion ink -- awesome tegra2 tablet, transflective 1024x600 display (100mW in full sunlight), rear trackpad, swivelable camera23:48
DocScrutinizermgedmin: that's why I left that habit and leave it to others23:48
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: nice one23:48
mgedmindon't give me ideas, Noobmonk3y; the twin crutches of unit tests and version control are barely enough to keep me in line23:48
Noobmonk3yhehe! yay!!! - i'm just getting the basic screens working before i tidy up and clean up! but thats 3 screens done!23:48
Noobmonk3y8+ more to go!23:48
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: good on ya.23:48
Noobmonk3yThat one scorlls down, so will need to add some sexy arrors, as qt scrollbars are non existant23:49
Noobmonk3ymgedmin: I have a police breathalyser ;) - tis great fun at parties23:49
Noobmonk3ycrashanddie: have to admit i'm impressed with how much quicker c++ is app wise, not coding wise lol23:49
crashanddiewell... duh23:49
* DocScrutinizer is amazed how much quicker crashanddie is compared to Noobmonk3y23:50
Noobmonk3y2 weeks to get Healthcheck into in pyqt, 2 weeks to do 3 screens in c++/qt, lol23:50
Noobmonk3yDocScrutinizer: less wine23:50
Noobmonk3yand i haven't even looked at packaging yet :|23:50
crashanddieNoobmonk3y: C++ will always be faster than Python during execution, without taking into account that C++ is pretty much "native" Qt, whereas python needs glue to connect to the C++ first.23:50
keriocrashanddie: lies!23:50
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crashanddieI wouldn't be surprised if we were talking about a 30-40% speed increase on average.23:51
kerioJITted python beats unoptimized c++ most of the times23:51
crashanddiekerio: and can you use JIT python with Qt?23:51
keriono idea23:51
keriopypy is still somewhat of a... pre pre pre pre alpha23:52
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DocScrutinizercrashanddie: I bet I can code something in python that's 10000% slower than coded in C23:52
Noobmonk3ylol doc23:52
crashanddieDocScrutinizer: sleep(1) vs sys.sleep(10000)?23:52
AranelCan someone look and tell me wtf is wrong with it?: It's driving me crazy :|23:53
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kerioAranel: the build failed23:53
DocScrutinizerI more though of a for(i=0; i<100000000; i++) vs Qobject i\n23:54
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Noobmonk3ykerio: damn you are good23:54
Noobmonk3yDocScrutinizer geek23:54
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kerioi think it's because debian/rules exited with an error23:54
Aranelkerio: yeah, I don't know why, It's my first package (except the l10n thing, but there was no binaries in that one)23:54
crashanddiekerio: create two apps, but this is the fakecode: create dynamic string list, and string variable mystring. loop 10000 times while doing stringlist.append(mystring + "woohoo")23:54
kerioi could be mistaken23:54
crashanddiekerio: one in python, the other one in STL C++23:54
keriocrashanddie: why would you do that23:54
crashanddieI bet you $5 that C++ will kick the pants off python, whether it's JIT or not.23:55
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Noobmonk3ylcuk: alive?23:55
Aranelkerio: It's working quite good on Scratchbox.23:55
keriocrashanddie: [mystring + "woohoo"] * 1000023:55
crashanddiekerio: because memory allocation/augmentation is one of the trickiest things in any language, and that is the only thing that will drive production-worthy performance23:55
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: you got my idea :-923:56
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crashanddiebecause in 99% of the scenarios, you don't know the size of the data you're going to handle. When you're working with streams, when you're working with complex data structures, when you're working with unknown data structures23:56
kerio["foo" + "bar"] * 10000 returns instantly for me23:56
Noobmonk3yis the meego conference on at the mo? or was that a while ago?23:57
kerioif you need that kind of dynamic allocation you should use a db23:57
DocScrutinizereven braindead-JIT will optimize that to 023:57
crashanddiedude, kerio, are you serious?23:57
kerioyou're saying a list is not enough for you23:58
* DocScrutinizer suffocates from coughing23:58
Noobmonk3yright, space + system done, onto cpu now....23:58
* DocScrutinizer envisions kerio coming up with gnu-sort-2 based on db23:59
crashanddiekerio: so your answer to "python's list handli