IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2010-10-14

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Venemowhy does apt-get say on my Scratchbox, "E: Could not get lock /var/lib/apt/lists/lock - open (11 Resource temporarily unavailable)" ???00:17
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timeless_mbpbecause HAM is open00:18
Venemotimeless_mbp: it is not open00:19
timeless_mbp(or something else like HAM)00:19
Venemotimeless_mbp: the GUI is not even running00:19
timeless_mbpVenemo: ls -l /var/lib/apt/lists/lock00:19
James_Littlerhi all, after a bit of help. I'm trying to install the maemo-sdk, I get through the eula, press enter to accept. it says display already set, installation environment already set, added debconf frontend setting in scratchbox, error opening terminal:xterm.00:19
timeless_mbpps aux|grep apt-worker00:19
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Venemotimeless_mbp: hm, it's working now00:21
Venemotimeless_mbp: dunno what was its problem though00:21
timeless_mbpyou probably had an apt-worker that was running around00:21
Venemotimeless_mbp: I dunno... thanks for your help anyway :)00:21
DocScrutinizer51fuser /var/lib/apt/lists/lock00:22
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DocScrutinizer51or lsof|grep var/lib/apt/lists/lock00:23
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DocScrutinizer51after closing HAM, it seems apr-worker has quite some cleanup work to do, so the lock will get released eventually later00:25
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DocScrutinizer51get load applet and you'll learn about such things 'en passant'00:26
DocScrutinizer51absolutely every computer with a UI I own has such a load applet or system monitor00:28
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DocScrutinizer51and I don't talk about a tool I *could* start, but about some always running meter00:30
timeless_mbpbah, you can leave top always running :)00:32
DocScrutinizersure, on some environments top is my fist choice for that00:33
DocScrutinizeron a small screen with no partial screen sized windows, like maemo/N900, a status area applet is better as you don't have to switch windows to have a glance00:34
nidOtop via ssh \o/00:35
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DocScrutinizera friend of mine once told me "hey, you're not driving a car, you are operating a combustion engine" - seems that's ageneral mindset characteristic for my way to deal with technical objects00:36
* nox- didnt know load applet, thx for the tip :)00:37
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GAN900DocScrutinizer, no, you're operating a computer which is operating an internal combustion engine. :P00:37
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DocScrutinizerGAN900: yep, nowadays. This statement of my friend was in the early 80s00:38
DocScrutinizerthe cars back then even could survive an EMP00:39
BCMMthe important electronics are all designed for very large currents anyway00:42
nox-the µc.s too?00:44
BCMMthose are unneccessary extras, not important parts :-)00:45
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nox-oh you mean the car will still drive when they're toast?00:45
BCMM(yes, i know modern cars let them run the engine)00:45
nox-thats the problem00:46
BCMMalso, i want to know how you enter unicode, if it's quicker to type a mu than to type "micro'00:46
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nox-oh well i configured a compose key but in this case µ is also part of the german keymap (altgr-m)00:47
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* mgedmin ♥ unicode00:48
BCMMcan you register unicode nicks on freenode?00:49
_llll_doubt it.  and clients wouldnt understand them00:49
BCMMoh, is irc unicode not for nicks?00:50
_llll_irc isnt unicode!00:50
_llll_lots of ircd people around can tell you more!00:51
BCMMwhat does it use?00:51
_llll_ask an ircd person! but i think it has its own idea of encoding - but that may be completely wrong00:51
BCMMnox-: why do German kbs have a mu?00:52
nox-they have altgr, i guess adding mu was just a `bonus' since its also in the iso latin1 encoding...00:53
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BCMModd value of latin00:54
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nox-i mean iso8899-100:55
Venemowhere are the header files in Scratchbox?00:55
nox-(or -15)00:55
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nox-8859-1 even00:55
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mc_teohey there02:00
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mc_teoim trying to install smbclient on my n90002:00
mc_teowhich depends on samba-common02:01
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mc_teoand which on removing all the ^M from its postinst file, fails on the command ucfr02:01
mc_teoucf is installed02:02
mc_teoso what do?02:02
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GAN900Love it when the phone isn't answerable. And selected reject when it finally stops deadlocking.02:15
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nox-too much swapping?02:21
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rtyleris there a decent virtualbox image with the SDK and everything included already I can download? I'm running openSUSE and don't really want to go through the pain with the SDK tools :P04:51
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ebzzryHi! Is git available on Fremantle?05:09
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returnthisquick question: I have extras-testing and -devel setup on my n900. I can't find syncevolution in the packages list. yet it is listed on the repo05:27
returnthisno errors on refreshe either05:27
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DocScrutinizer51rtyler: I seem to remember the available image is out of date. I managed to install sb and maemo tools on Suse, by following a suse specific instruction05:30
rtyleryeah, installing that now05:33
rtylermy preference would be a vm though05:33
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chxso... i see lighttpd, mysql-server-4.1 / 5.0 , and php5 packages. does this mean that if i get an N900 now I will be able to put up the whole LAMP stack w/o puttiing up the whole Debian ...?08:39
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TermanaN900no. LAMP is Apache, MySQL and PHP on linux. That would be more like LLMP :p08:41
chxheh right08:42
chxbut, i want to run Drupal on my phone. and so all these fancy Android phones are not the best for me and anyways most highend devices are expensive but the N900 has crawled down to $300 or so08:42
mikki-kunchx: the n900 is not a phone =p it's a tablet with phone features08:44
TermanaN900Besides the N900 kicks the crap out of Android08:44
chxi know, i have an n81008:44
AppiahDevice vs OS08:44
mikki-kunTermanaN900: besides, the n900 can run adnoid as well08:44
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chxanother question... how's google maps?08:44
mikki-kunchx: there isn't a dedicated app for it08:45
Appiah chx08:45
mikki-kunbut there is a website which i found pretty amazing08:45
TermanaN900Appiah, right, I mean Maemo vs Android08:45
chxit's such an awesome service, it even has transit in most cities.08:45
mikki-kun*searching website*08:45
Appiahso yes there are maemo packages for your... LLMP :)08:45
chxAppiah: i know. i found them. the question was more like... do they work :) ?08:45
Appiahwell php5 is in EXTRA-DEVEL08:46
TermanaN900chx, I see no reason why they wouldn't08:46
Appiahsame with mysql-server08:46
TermanaN900Appiah, along with... you know.. mostly everything else08:46
Appiahand lighthttpd08:46
AppiahTermanaN900: :D08:46
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Appiahjust see if <insert application here> runs on those versions08:47
chx looks like this does all the navigation one wants?08:47
chxany experience?08:47
mikki-kunAppiah: what is the problem with php5 in devel? i mean people who use devel should be warned once and told in big red letters "we are not officially supporting this software (please repeat 10 times and verify by telling it 10 times in your n900's mic" ^^08:48
mikki-kunwould solve a bunch of problems i guess08:48
Appiahnever used maep chx , I used OVI maps and mappero08:48
Appiahmikki-kun: did I say it was a problem? :)08:48
mikki-kunchx: <-- if you didn't know the website for google maps mobile08:48
mikki-kunAppiah: i thought that's why you wrote it in caps08:49
Appiahjust noting that it will requrie the user to enable the extra-devel08:49
mikki-kuni founf the mobile website so far really good08:49
chxmikki-kun: quite awesome!08:50
chxmikki-kun: thanks08:50
chxmikki-kun: offline capabilities?08:50
mikki-kunchx: stumbled upon it once, bookmarked it immediatly08:50
TermanaN900wasn't there a google maps app just released?08:50
TermanaN900(Not by google)08:50
mikki-kunchx: i guess no... only for online use therefore ;/ for offline use i think you are better of with mappero or such stuff08:50
TermanaN900I thought i saw something about it in my twitter feed08:51
mikki-kunchx: if you have geolocation enabled you can get full online navigation i guess08:51
mikki-kunas it asks for "can i get your locatiopn please?"08:51
chxso yeah... good for home... good luck when travelling :(08:52
* chx reads
chxthe wiki does not even mention public transit08:53
chxoh well08:53
chxgood night08:53
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mecegaah thenokiablog, this looks like a shit storm in the making09:06
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doc|homeif 1.3 just means modest doesn't suck then I'll be happy09:09
* TermanaN900 needs to remember to lock the n900 before putting it in his pocket :\09:10
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mecedoc|home, I'm sure pr1.3 is fine, but the dual booting meego part needs some explanation. People are shouting yaaa! we is getting meego! on twitter.09:13
* mece sighs09:13
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TermanaN900mece, dual booting is going to work with u-boot09:14
meceTermanaN900, yeah, but it changes nothing in terms of meego support for n900. The post kinda suggests that you will have a complete functional meego included.09:15
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TermanaN900mece, you flash a special designed kernel image which has u-boot with maemo's kernel apended. u-boot loads, if it finds a valid kernel on the mmc it autoboots to that, if not it will boot the normal kernel image09:16
* mece sighs09:16
mece(9:15:11 AM) mece: TermanaN900, yeah, but it changes nothing in terms of meego support for n900. The post kinda suggests that you will have a complete functional meego included.09:16
Stskeepsmece, mention it to harha when he's on09:16
TermanaN900mece, what do you mean? There will be a fully functional meego09:16
meceI'm talking about a blogpost09:16
mecethat people are excited about09:16
TermanaN900link? :p09:16
mecenon eveloper people09:16
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mecedeveloper I  means.09:17
meceIt kinda fails to mention what "dual booting meego" means in practice right now09:18
meceand people on twitter seems to be very excited about it.09:18
meceIt's exciting for me too, but for more realistic reasons I vager09:19
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infobotmece meant: It's exciting for me too, but for more realistic reasons I wager09:19
TermanaN900oh right. i see. well unless nokia has been working on something behind everyones back (including the adaption team), meego obviously isn't going to be fully functional when 1.3 comes (if its REALLY soon)09:19
TermanaN900Or do you mean vague as in the definition of MeeGo (meego vs harmattan)?09:20
Corsacnote that we don't really know what's the status on aava09:20
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TermanaN900Corsac, no? Why don't you check the QA tests? :p09:21
CorsacTermanaN900: I mean, I have a n900 so I can try meego on n900, I don't own an aava and it's quite expensive last time I checked :)09:22
meceWell i mean that people seem to think that once pr1.3 is out, you can also use meego if you want. Seeing as meego is not exactly end-user compatible, people might be a tad disappointed.09:22
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meceanyway, we'll see how it goes. The big news is that pr1.3 is close, but people seem to focus on the meego bit a little too much :)09:25
TermanaN900mece, mmm. But it seems you can't please a lot of these people with anything, so :p09:25
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chibi-taigaanyone knows if n900 have coreavc support?09:27
Stskeepspeople are going to read that they'll get flash 10.1 and pink ponies on their n900 if that's what they want to read09:27
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TermanaN900mece, well, i find MeeGo more interesting of a distro than Maemo but anyway :P09:27
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doc|homemece: it might not be that bad
chibi-taiga ofcource would meego beter its intel and nokia afterall , intel the biggest cpu part maker on the world09:29
Corsacwell, afaik gsm works only on pinless sim...09:29
Stskeepswell, that's UI / ofono fault09:29
Stskeepswow, people drilling in pipes here really is horrible to listen to09:30
hatake_kakashiGSM mode also works with PIN enabled SIM09:30
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hatake_kakashiI can't see how it wouldn't work.. and it would also be quite ludicrous too to only have GSM (2G) capability for PIN disabled SIM cards09:32
Stskeepshatake_kakashi: eh? :P09:32
mecedoc|home, yeah, that post is very nice and explains the situation. The thenokiablog post does not explain the situation, and that's the one that's being tweeted-09:32
Stskeepshatake_kakashi: software stack problem09:32
CorsacStskeeps: btw, trying 1.1.80 wasn't a that bright idea, it didn't work out in the end (well, after boot it only shown a black screen and sometime some kind of cursor)09:32
CorsacStskeeps: so I'll try a 1.1 when I get a chance :)09:32
meceStskeeps, you fixed the dsme bug?09:32
TermanaN900hatake_kakashi, I don't think you understand09:32
hatake_kakashiStskeeps, wait.. I don't understand.. how? unless I'm seeing things I have enabled 2G mode with PIN enabled SIM09:33
Stskeepshatake_kakashi: on meego09:33
meceStskeeps, sorry, wrong channel09:33
Stskeepsmece: yes09:33
hatake_kakashiTermanaN900, no I don't09:33
hatake_kakashiStskeeps, ahh meego, well on maemo it does lol and this is maemo channel no? :)09:33
TermanaN900hatake_kakashi, on meego you can't use a pin locked sim just through the gui09:33
Stskeepstopic was on meego :P09:33
TermanaN900at the moment09:33
hatake_kakashiTermanaN900, wasn't meego on n900 still very much WIP?09:34
hatake_kakashiStskeeps, ahh I see well now I can see how far I was left behind lol09:34
TermanaN900hatake_kakashi, it is still a WIP, along with the whole of meego09:34
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TermanaN900It is actually MeeGo's fault not the adaption09:34
TermanaN900Because the GUI doesn't ask for the pin to unlock the SIM09:35
hatake_kakashiwell I wasn't really referring to just the port but yeh the whole project is still very much WIP the last I read09:35
meceWIP is what? Apparently I'm not down with the lingo.09:37
Stskeepswork in progress09:37
hatake_kakashiyeh what Stskeeps said09:38
TermanaN900mece, now are you down with that.. dog?09:39
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meceTermanaN900, yes :)09:48
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RST38hBut you already know that :)10:35
StskeepsRST38h: yeah10:35
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RST38hStskeeps: Congratulations on the new role btw10:37
Stskeepsthanks - in practice it won't do much difference, harri's still attached to the work, nokia's providing resources, technical documents, kernel developers..10:37
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hatake_kakashiany of you guys running desktop command execution widget? I'm having a little difficulty locating whereabouts does desktop command execution widget stores user added commands10:40
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jacekowskiMohammadAG51: do you understand arabic10:41
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hatake_kakashiI have a strace output if it may come in handy, I can't see the plain ascii file in which it adds the user's commands from the strace output10:41
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hatake_kakashihumm lol nm seems like I've solved my own problem :D10:43
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meceJaffa, you noticed the twitter meego dual boot problem too I see.12:18
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PillumMohammadAG51: you there?12:19
crashanddieJaffa, feel free to explain12:19
ShapeshifterWhat dhcp client does maemo use? I see neither dhcpcd nor dhclient. How do I just reapply for an IP from the cli?12:20
Shapeshifterieatlint: thanks12:20
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mececrashanddie, I'm referring to his tweet: @jaffa2: Sighing at all the "#N900 soon to get #MeeGo dual boot" posts. Missing so many points, it's not funny :-(12:22
crashanddiemece, I know, I saw it12:22
mececrashanddie, which in turn refers to this:
Myrttithe origianl post is fairly selfexplanatory. the conclusions people make about it though are quite erraneous12:22
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Myrttior simplifying to say the least12:23
meceMyrtti, yep. The Nokia Blog blog post makes it bad. Harha's post was great.12:23
sx0nStskeeps, congrats.12:23
MyrttiI'm already facepalming due to the Finnish newsitem made based on it12:23
crashanddieMyrtti, even MWKN is getting to the same conclusions, though12:23
alteregoI thought we new this for a while.12:23
StskeepsMyrtti: ..12:23
crashanddieMWKN: Devices: PR1.3 close, and will make dual-booting MeeGo development images & Maemo possible #maemo12:24
alteregoknew ..12:24
Stskeepscrashanddie: well, that's correct12:24
crashanddiewell, what I read from the meego blog was "Booting Meego will be possible on N900, and phone calls kinda work thanks to open source driver"12:24
alteregoI could have sworn we were talking about 1.3 including better dual booting support.12:24
mecealterego, yeah, nothing is new, but the blog post makes things look like there's a finished meego for n900 coming in a week or so.12:24
Pillumdo i need linux to develop for n900?12:25
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crashanddiePillum, no12:25
mecePillum: ni12:25
alteregomece: oh, thass what you're talking about :)12:25
mecealterego, yes.12:25
Stskeepsmece: well, it wouldn't be fun if i didn't have a crisis to deal with on the first day of my 'new job'12:25
alteregoMeh, they!l always say that12:25
meceStskeeps, new job?12:25
crashanddieStskeeps, new job?12:25
Stskeepsmece: well, that i'm now the official nokia n900 hardware adaptation maintainer12:25
meceStskeeps, congratulations!12:26
crashanddieStskeeps, happy?12:26
Pillumseems like i still need linux to build libs12:26
crashanddieStskeeps, you may want to post a note that explains exactly what's what12:26
Pillumis there a new vm available?12:26
crashanddieStskeeps, you may even want to contact nokia blog so they can retract their statement12:26
alteregoStskeeps: congrats :)12:27
Stskeepscrashanddie: harri's blog entry which is the source of this entire thing does exactly that..12:27
pebSTSkeeps .. congrat also from my side12:27
JaffaMyrtti: mece: crashanddie: Nokia Blog post isn't as bad as
crashanddieJaffa, yeah, sure, but well, poor journalism and hype management, eh.12:27
Stskeeps(for the critics: no, it's not nokia abandoning meego on n900, just technical leadership - resources and team stays the same as well as goals)12:27
Jaffacrashanddie: MWKN isn't jumping to the same conclusions, I'm just going to note that it means being able to test MeeGo without having to have a donor PC to flash the kernel over USB as a one-time operation.12:28
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meceJaffa, well that one doesn't seem to contain any information whatsoever.12:28
JaffaStskeeps: Is dual boot easier cos of PR1.3 sharing the same kernel or something entirely different?12:28
crashanddieJaffa, PR1.3 will install a midget on every N900, who will automagically translate everything12:29
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crashanddieNokia is betting a lot on the chinese midget production, we'll see what happens.12:29
Pillumanyone: how can i run ./configure and make on windows with n900 build infos? so i do need linxu or what=12:29
crashanddiePillum, please read the developer documentation12:30
crashanddiePillum, look at MADDE, or whatever the name is12:30
Pillumbut MADDE doesnt have sh12:30
Pillumto run bash scripts12:30
Jaffamece: The whole series of "OMG! Does this means the N900 is getzing teh meeeegoes?"12:31
JaffaAnnoys the hell out of me.12:31
meceJaffa, ditto12:31
JaffaAnd I'm not Stskeeps who's going to have to deal with the expectation management12:31
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meceStskeeps, you need to start tweeting moar :)12:31
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Pillumoh it does12:32
crashanddiePillum, no problem, you're welcome12:32
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mecePillum, I hear madde covers it all, but I've never really gotten into it. Found it easier to run a linux distro in virtualbox on my work computer (which is windows)12:33
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kkalIs there a new maemo/meego phone in the pipelines?12:35
kkalbecause Im giving away my android phone which I need to replace and I'd really like more control over my phone12:36
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crashanddiethen stay with Android, LOL12:36
kkalnb: I had the n800/n810 before that12:36
pebkkal, why not a N900?12:36
crashanddiewell, dunno about MeeGo, but Maemo is probably more closed source than Android.12:36
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Surfai don't think12:36
crashanddiewe knew that already.12:37
Pillummece: is there a full setup linux vm available somewhere in the  internet? seems like I need some packages from the fremantle(-SDK) repo to build it correctly12:37
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kkalwell the n900 is old in comparison with the newer android phones12:37
JaffaPillum: "madde apt-get install" should work, AIUI12:37
jarkkommece, yeah virtualbox route works quite nicely apart from UI stuff being really slow12:37
Surfacrashanddie, good12:37
mecePillum, I use fremantle sdk :)12:37
kkalbut I miss thigns like  mplayer on my phone12:38
jarkkomthough I'd just run Linux natively but Thinkpad T410's WLAN just won't work properly so haven't got much choice12:38
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Pillumfremantle sdk?12:38
StskeepsJaffa: the statement comes from the fact PR1.3 has kexec capability. however, that's not the direction we're going for meego as it is a bit unstable12:38
StskeepsJaffa: we're going for the u-boot solution as it's simply more practical12:38
mecekkal, there's no new phone out yet. If you can get a cheap n900 it's totally worth it (if you want a linux device that is)12:39
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kkalmece: off ebay?12:39
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mecekkal, some companies seem to sell them cheap too I hear. Haven't been looking lately.12:39
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kkalso there shall be no n1000 I guess12:40
mecekkal, but if/when a meego phone is announced I'm guessing the n900 price will drop. Then I moght be getting another one. And maybe a third :)12:40
PillumJaffa: there is no madde exec on my MADDE installation (ver 0.7.22 from NokiaQTSDK)12:40
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crashanddiepeb_, please deactivate your away script12:42
Pillum have to add it manually12:42
peb_crashanddie .. sorry, but I thought it's already gone (deactivated).12:43
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crashanddie[11:42:08] * peb_ is gone. Gone since Thu Oct 14 11:28:00 201012:43
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ebzzryHi! Is git available on fremantle?12:45
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crashanddieshould be12:45
ebzzry-testing or -devel?12:45
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ebzzrycrashanddie: thanks.12:46
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meceIt's funny how comic-widget is still the app I use the most on my phone. It's sad that I wrote it so badly that it would require a complete(ish) rewrite to be extras ready.12:48
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kkalI think I'll stick with android for now. Maybe in a couple of years I'll find a nice meego phone waiting for me12:54
ebzzrycrashanddie: wait, under what name is git listed in -devel?12:54
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cehtehebzzry: 'git' :)12:55
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Jaffaebzzry: There's both git & git-core, see recent post to maemo-developers12:55
cehtehits not in the normal applications list you need to use fapman and then the advanced view or apt-get12:55
mecegit-core is the proper one Jaffa, ebzzry12:56
mecegit should be a metapackage.12:56
mecebut it isn't12:56
ebzzrycehteh: How do I enable this advanced view?12:57
meceebzzry, if you're going to use git, you would be in x-term anyway, am I right?12:57
meceebzzry, so why not go xterm and do root; apt-get install git-core12:57
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RobbieThe1stOk, got a question for anyone that might know: I have a complete tar archive of my N900's rootfs. I extracted it to a directory on my desktop, and followed this:
RobbieThe1stEverything is successful, but it won't boot. at all. Any idea what I might be doing wrong?12:58
mikki-kuni think there is yet another sort of flash where nolo resides12:59
mikki-kunnolo == n900's bootloader12:59
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mikki-kunif that isn't "working" you can have 10 rootfs it won't boot12:59
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RobbieThe1stWell, that shouldn't have changed; I had a working system, reflashed the rootfs with my own image of the system(which should end up being identical), and it doesn't work.13:00
RobbieThe1stIs there any permissions issues that might affect it?13:00
RobbieThe1stMeanwhile, I'll try reflashing the nolo, just in case13:00
hrwI am installing latest ovi suite under winxp. At same time I am wondering will nokia ever learn how to make UI13:01
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moorelee_I am new to maemo platform and would like to contribute on the testing. Browsed through maemo contribution webpages .. but seems there are numerous mailing lists and IRC channels13:02
moorelee_can anyone guide me from where should I start ?13:02
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mikki-kunRobbieThe1st: i am not sure of how "flashing" works in detail, but having to use a flasher indicates to me there is more stuff going on than just plain copying13:03
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RobbieThe1stHm... Does anyone know if the "rootfs.jffs2" image in the N900 PR1.2 image is actually a ubifs image(as I've heard), or a jffs2 image?13:03
crashanddiemoorelee_, this is the main IRC channel, there's a handful of other channels, but they're mostly dead (not much happening)13:03
crashanddiemoorelee_, after that, it really depends what exactly you're trying to achieve/offer.13:03
StskeepsRobbieThe1st: it's ubifs13:03
mikki-kunRobbieThe1st: i think you could find out by analyzing it's first bytes13:04
mikki-kunthere it should be indicated.... ohhh, or ask Stskeeps ^^13:04
RobbieThe1stWell, that solves that13:04
RobbieThe1stOk, Stskeeps, question for you: Would this work?13:04
Stskeepsyes, that's my post13:05
moorelee_crashanddie : hmm ... if I wanted to start particularly on testing, is there some place where I should start ?13:05
RobbieThe1stOk, perfect. Any idea what I'm doing wrong then? I have a tar'd rootfs image, I extract it to a folder and then follow those instructions. Everything works successfully, image comes out ~140mb in size. It flashes... But won't boot at all.13:06
StskeepsRobbieThe1st: 1) use gnu tar, 2) tar --numeric-owner -pzcf13:08
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RobbieThe1stWell, 1's already being done. Any way to "salvage" an image made with just "gtar cf"?13:10
JaffaAnyone looked at doing the 'Send to Phone' Android client for Maemo?
hrw~curse nokia for map loader/updater and rest of crap for windows13:10
infobotMay the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, nokia for map loader/updater and rest of crap for windows !13:10
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RobbieThe1stAh well, lets see...13:11
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JaffaSource for client:
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Venemois there a way to interface Scratchbox and Qt Creator?13:15
hrwVenemo: QT Creator can contain maemo qt sdk so you will not have to use sbox13:16
Venemohrw: that I know13:16
hrw~vomit on nokia windows tools13:16
Venemohrw: unfortunately there is no (official) way to install third party libraries into MADDE (what the Qt SDK uses)13:17
Venemobut I can easily install libraries into Scratchbox13:17
hrwNokia should fire all designers which touched mswindows tools (ovi suite, map loader)13:17
RobbieThe1stYea, very true13:17
Venemoso (when I'm on Linux) I'd prefer to use Qt Creator with Scratchbox, if possible13:18
jarkkomI still haven't managed to get OVI suite 2.2 to work with N90013:18
jarkkomI wonder if it got tested at all13:18
* infobot mooooooooo! I am cow, hear me moo, I weigh twice as much as you. I am cow, eating grass, methane gas comes out my ass13:18
Surfajarkkom, how about 3.X version?13:18
stondaand then another batch of outsourced coders from chennai would step in13:18
Venemojarkkom: not at all, I bet13:18
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VenemoDocScrutinizer: this was LoL13:18
RobbieThe1stTo be fair, the reason I ended up getting my first Nokia computer, a N770.. was because it has proper Linux support and good old USB mass storage support, unlike *certain* devices these days.... <_<13:18
Surfajarkkom, never mind.. :) mixed version numbers13:18
jarkkomSurfa, yeah I thought you were talking about some beta version13:19
Myrttimy N800 doesn't boot anymore :-<13:19
VenemoMyrtti: what happened to it?13:20
DocScrutinizerwhat else does it, then?13:20
Surfajarkkom, sorry.. but my 2.2 seems to work very well13:20
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Myrttileft it alone for half a year or so in my luggage13:20
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Myrttinow when I put in on the charger Nokia logo flashes on and off for a while13:21
DocScrutinizerbattery killed13:21
hrwMyrtti: replace battery?13:21
Myrttihrw: yeah, I've already got a new one... it just happens to be 1000 miles away...13:21
Myrttioh well13:21
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hrwMyrtti: visit nearest gsm shop?13:22
Myrttinot such a hurry to replace it that I'd need a new one13:22
MyrttiI just wanted to use it to play music while in bath last night13:22
Myrttiand perhaps IRC13:23
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RobbieThe1stQuick question: Whats "CMT" with regards to the N90013:23
Stskeepsthe modem13:24
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DocScrutinizertoday's lesson: never leave battery in device while stashing away for months. keep batteries in a cool and dry place. Recharge batteries every 3 months13:24
DocScrutinizeror just:13:24
infoboti guess batteryfaq is
RobbieThe1stActually, I've found the best way to keep Li-on batterys is in the fridge or freezer13:25
RobbieThe1stYou probably want to place it in a baggy first, but it does work fine13:25
DocScrutinizerNEVER keep LiIon in a freezer!13:26
infobotThe key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.13:26
DocScrutinizererr, ok13:26
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jaskayou mean must not :D13:26
DocScrutinizeryou MUST NOT keep LiIon in a freezer!13:26
VenemoDocScrutinizer: just out of curiosity, why not?13:26
RobbieThe1stNah, I looked it up. A freezer's somewhere around 32F, or the freezing point of water.13:26
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RobbieThe1stIt needs to be significantly colder than that to actually freeze anything related to the battery itself13:27
DocScrutinizerLiIon severely suffers on storage temps <0°C13:27
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infoboti heard joerg is a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko, usually known as DocScrutinizer13:27
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infoboti heard batteryfaq is
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Myrttiwhere in that document does it say anything about low temperatures?13:29
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VenemoDocScrutinizer: I believe you, but doesn't say anything about cold13:30
RobbieThe1stEverything I've seen talks about -operation- down to 0C13:30
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RobbieThe1stalso, while not a definitve source:
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DocScrutinizerwell, according to several reports and recommendations it seems highly advisable to store at 5..10°C, in a plastic bag, with some technical dryer knows as silicagel13:31
RobbieThe1stYes, perhaps. But -what will go wrong if I store it below that temp-?13:32
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mie_modeI have a question...13:33
mie_modesomeone install apache deb package in maemo?13:33
lcukmie_mode, i have a question...13:33
lcukhave you tried to google for "maemo apache"13:34
RobbieThe1stTo be honest though, I've tried it. I kept a whole box of scavenged phone batteries(from a recycle box) in the freezer for around a year. I needed one for an MP3 player I had, took it out, ripped the casing off it and hooked it up to the original battery's contact strip. Worked better than the old battery for quite a while,13:34
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RobbieThe1stAnd, yea, soldering on the old temp/safety chip board probably wasn't the safest move. But it worked, and didn't cost me a cent.13:36
mie_modei want to know about stable....or problems in working13:36
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lcukmie_mode, well now you know its there, you can find out more and dig deeper :)13:37
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RobbieThe1stwell, battery life probably wont be great...13:38
SpeedEvilRobbieThe1st: li-ion cell storage temps seem to universally be above the lowest temp found in a freezer13:38
alteregoCurious, vodafone haven't charged me extra for the 47G of mobile data transfer I've done this month13:38
SpeedEvilalterego: where are you?13:38
alteregoEven though they apparently changed my contract to 500M total13:38
alteregoFor every 500 I go over the 500 cap they charge me 5 quid13:38
SpeedEvilAlso - 47G is quite a lot13:38
alteregoOr so they said last month13:38
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SpeedEvilIf I was a phone company, I'd only be enforcing against people that caused congestion.13:39
DocScrutinizerRobbieThe1st: there are several indications you must neither charge nor discharge LiIon/LiPo under a certain minimum temp, and don't you think if storing @ -15°C was best for the cells, then the cell manufs like Hitachi would tell OEMs like Openmoko, so we could store our 1000s of batteries correctly?13:39
alteregoI live in a rural area where I use most of my data13:39
alteregoSo I don't think I'm really causing any untoward issues for anyone.13:40
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: Do they say you can't?13:40
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: I.E. the storage temp is within ghtat range.13:40
alteregoAnd I've told them when their base stations have gone down, not that they give a shit I'd imagine.13:40
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DocScrutinizerbut recommendations are 5..10°C13:40
RobbieThe1stYes, I agree with not using it below a certain temperature. However, when you are storing something, you generally aren't using it, right?13:40
SpeedEvilRobbieThe1st: Speaking personally. I store mine at -20C, and have had no issues.13:41
Venemoalterego: you mean 500 GB?13:41
RobbieThe1st-20C or 20C?13:41
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SpeedEvilI would suggest you reduce thermal cycles for assembled batteries.13:42
VenemoDocScrutinizer: what about a plain fridger instead of a freezer?13:42
DocScrutinizerstricly not recommended13:42
SpeedEvilAlso, place in a sealed bag with no air in before freezing.13:42
SpeedEvilfridge is fine, and recommended.13:42
DocScrutinizer0..18°C seems ok13:42
RobbieThe1stYea, you don't want condensation on the terminals13:42
SpeedEvilIn any case.13:42
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SpeedEvilDischarging to 40% and storing in a cool place is just fine for a year.13:43
DocScrutinizeralso there the recommendations are different. Other manufs say 75%13:43
RobbieThe1stAlso, plastic gets (more) brittle at such low temps; I ended up chipping a laptop battery's case when it fell out of the freezer. Didn't hurt the battery though; I ended up using it for a good year until I upgraded...13:44
DocScrutinizerprobably everything between 15 and 85% is ok13:44
SpeedEvil40% is probably not insane.13:44
SpeedEvilit's thehighest voltages that cause degradation.13:44
DocScrutinizerso, make that: discharge to <4.0v13:44
RobbieThe1stWell, seems to me that: A, higher voltages = more degredation, and B, if it runs completely down, it will stop working permanately.13:45
DocScrutinizerand >3V713:45
DocScrutinizermaybe 3V613:45
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RobbieThe1stKeeping it at 1% may last it the longest, but if it gets below a certain threshold, it won't charge any more.13:45
DocScrutinizerthough I'm sure 10% isn't worse than 1%, maybe better13:46
RobbieThe1stWho knows13:47
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DocScrutinizercell manufs and masterminds of LiIon anyway recommend 40%..75%13:49
DocScrutinizercell manufs even ship cells precharged to >80%13:49
DocScrutinizerthey wouldn't do that if it would deteriorate their product13:50
DocScrutinizeras they know the OEMs will keep a batch of 5000 in shelf for quite a while, and then they are in store shelf in product box for another while13:51
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MrPingouinhello world13:51
DocScrutinizerhello pole13:51
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MrPingouinI've written a little script in python that uses urllib to retrieve a webpage, and extract soem informations of it using regexp and stuff, the aim is to display the result in the "desktop command execution widget"13:53
RobbieThe1stWell, I think of it this way: Its better a little degradation which the consumer won't notice, than a shot battery which -will- be noticed13:53
DocScrutinizerMrPingouin: sounds really useful13:53
MrPingouinthe problem is : when the phone is not connected to data, the app freezes13:53
RobbieThe1stMrPingouin: Check the "timeout" option13:54
MrPingouinand I almost have to "killall hildon-home" or whatever13:54
RobbieThe1stthere's a timeout for Python's URLlib request13:54
MrPingouinallright, thanks a lot13:54
RobbieThe1stOn the other hand, if its availaible, cURL's the absolute -best- http grabber software I've seen. Both in PHP and CLI13:55
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DocScrutinizerRobbieThe1st: the consumer *will* notice, and esp the OEM will notice. The cell manufacturers will do everything to ship a top quality product to OEM, and they don't hesitate to recommend storage temperatures like -30..-32° and biweekly special treatment if they think it's needed to keep quality of their product on the highest level possible13:56
DocScrutinizerthey don't though13:57
RobbieThe1stHuh. Anyway...13:58
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RobbieThe1stJust curious here, and completely off topic, but is there any proper way to add a file by filename to the built-in media player's now-playing list?13:59
RobbieThe1stIt's the one thing I miss compared to my old, slow N77013:59
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DocScrutinizerclick in filemanager?13:59
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DocScrutinizeror use that plugin... errr the name I forgot another time14:00
RobbieThe1stAppend to the above: Without removing the current playlist/etc from now playing14:00
DocScrutinizerhmm, the plugin will do14:00
RobbieThe1stHm, let me know if you remember14:00
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DocScrutinizercheck chan log, it mentioned it yesterday or 2 days ago14:01
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DocScrutinizerI mentioned it...14:02
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RobbieThe1stmafw-grilo-source plugin for fremantle media player14:02
DocScrutinizergrilo, yes14:03
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RobbieThe1stNow, if I can manage to get my own - experimental - backupmenu to work again so I can get my N900 functional...14:04
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DocScrutinizerRobbieThe1st: it's a bit non-intuitive to use, as it has a menu item in mediaplayer's root window, where you in a second step use the file plugin14:05
RobbieThe1stWell, it can't be worse than playing each track for 30 seconds, then adding it from the "recently played" list14:05
MrPingouinRobbieThe1st: it works perfectly, thanks a lot14:07
DocScrutinizerRobbieThe1st: backupmenu? you are aware there were several guys really almost bricking their device by messing with writing to NAND/ubifs raw device while not exactly understanding the pitfalls14:07
RobbieThe1stWhich is what I'm trying to fix here14:07
RobbieThe1stThing is, the people for whom it works -like- it as it is and don't want to "upgrade" to a version that won't let them use the Nokia flasher to flash. The others seem to be kind of skittish and waiting for it to be tested14:09
RobbieThe1stSo, I'm slightly stuck here. I'm trying to improve the overall product, with no testers.14:09
RobbieThe1st(and not knowing much about what I'm doing here)14:09
DocScrutinizerwerner almesberger (wpwrak) and andy green, the 2 bootloader and system sw wizards of OM, really hate NAND for the complicated bad blocks management and whatnot14:10
MrPingouinwell, have a good day people14:10
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RobbieThe1stTo be honest, I was surprised that the bad blocks would even be visible at the filesystem level; I thought that - like HDs and flash drives - it would be dealt with on-chip, and DD wouldn't even see the badblocks14:11
infobotthanks, Venemo14:12
DocScrutinizerRobbieThe1st: that's the exact diff between MMC and NAND14:13
Venemoyou're welcome infobot14:13
RobbieThe1stYea, I'm finding that out.14:13
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DocScrutinizerMMC has a controller that does hidden bad block management, page erase, and whatnot - NAND does *not* have such a controller, so the main system has full control and the responsibility14:14
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DocScrutinizerthat's what jffs2 and ubifs etc are all about14:15
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ieatlintso i've learnt that maemo5 pr 1.2 lacks libqtlocation from qt mobility, but the sdk includes it :(14:18
ieatlintso i had the fortunate experience to write some software, some basic testing with the sdk, upload it, and enjoy a missing lib error14:19
DocScrutinizership the lib with your pkg?14:19
ieatlinthah, or just wait a month for pr1.3 :P14:20
ieatlintwill see14:20
ieatlinti could also probably drop it back down to the c lib for maemo, but have been trying not to mix and match qt with c libs, heh14:20
DocScrutinizernah, that's insane. If the 1.2 SDK has that lib, then it ought also be awailable from repo to install to N900 as a dependency14:21
Kaadlajkisnt the qtlocation in repos? pretty sure i did some testing with it in PR1.214:21
ieatlinti did a basic check looking for it, and didn't see... will recheck14:22
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DocScrutinizerieatlint: are you sure it's not just a missing dependency declaration in your package?14:22
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ieatlintno, am checking if there is a qtlocation lib that's in the repos and non-standard now14:23
RobbieThe1stJust out of curiosity, do you guys think anyone'd be interested in a "find best OC" script that would - automatically - test each speed/voltage profile for stability, drop the voltage until it crashes, then up it by two or three, thereby finding the optimum settings for a particular N90014:23
SpeedEvilOverclocking is unfortunately more than stability.14:23
SpeedEvilThere is the potential of damage.14:23
SpeedEvilOf course - some may be interested.14:24
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kerioif you can keep buying more n900s, go ahead14:25
RobbieThe1stNow, while on the forums the consensus is that "OCing may cause damage", no one yet has come forward having actually broken one yet...14:25
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kerioyes they did14:25
keriolot of people14:25
RobbieThe1stShow me.14:25
RobbieThe1stI know a lot of people have tried a profile, had it not work and crash, but no -permanent- damage, last I heard.14:26
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* ShadowJK vaguely recalls seeing threads on the forums with people with broken OCd N900s..14:26
SpeedEvilThe question is - how many people would say 'I broke my n900' vs 'I returned it because it became unstable.14:26
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RobbieThe1stWell, heck, even that - You'd expect a lot people claiming that it didn't work.. All I've seen is someone claiming that by OCing they broke the charging circuit and or battery... Not likely.14:27
DocScrutinizertell RobbieThe1st about omap-oc14:27
DocScrutinizer~tell RobbieThe1st about omap-oc14:28
RobbieThe1stNote: I'm taking all my "real-world" data from:
infobot"OK, listen up.  This is your CPU."  apt drops the CPU into a hot frying pan.  "This is your CPU on overclocking.  Any questions?"14:28
infobothmm... tmo is, or too much off-topic14:28
RobbieThe1stThing is, I've heard several people speaking that same line.. OC wiki etc. Yet, people have had their N900's OC'd for around as long as they have had their devices haven't killed them yet, so...14:30
ieatlintyeah, i can't find any source for the missing library in the main repo, extras repo or devel repo14:30
ieatlintthere's "liblocation" which provides the c stuff14:31
ieatlintand bug reports can be found by google talking about issues compiling libqtlocation for maemo514:31
ieatlintalso, damn and it's robots.txt14:32
ieatlintand damn my grammar error... s/it's/its/14:33
RobbieThe1stBut, either way, it doesn't matter. Until we see some real-world destruction, its sort of a moot point, which was why I've asked14:33
DocScrutinizerRobbieThe1st: there are reports from people experiencing instabilities or even frying their battery by overclocking, also permanent instabilities, and then those stories suddenly stall - nobody will stand up and tell "hooray I didn't listen to the warnings and now I finally achieved to fry my CPU to a state where every 2nd boot segfaults". No those users blush and shut up14:33
ieatlintand anyone who tries to tell me that technically that wasn't a grammar error14:33
Venemo~nuke and its robots.txt14:34
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at and its robots.txt ... B☢☢M!14:34
Venemoieatlint: I hope you're happy now14:35
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ieatlinti'm too cynical to ever be happy14:35
ieatlintso i just try to lower the bar, by making others unhappy14:35
RobbieThe1stThat's sort of fair, though as a counterpoint I'd have to bring up the several people with instability with stock clocks and voltages; no "custom" OC involved. Bumping the voltage a tad'd probably help there.14:35
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DocScrutinizerRobbieThe1st: go on, go on. I'm sure you'll find a better concept in your spare time, than those hundereds of TI and Nokia engineers during their daywork which is exactly dealing with that stuff and knowing every little bit about it14:37
RobbieThe1stNah, I have no doubt that it'll eventually break things.14:38
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: please kick me!14:38
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RobbieThe1stRealistically though, it all comes down to how long a particular chip'll last at specific settings, vs how long people will end up keeping their devices. Also a major factor is how long it actually stays at full speed.14:39
ieatlintaha, i may have actually found the lib... "libqtm-location", so perhaps disregard my aimless complaining as per usual14:39
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DocScrutinizerRobbieThe1st: sorry I have to use such clear language, but when you said above "that would - automatically - test each speed/voltage profile for stability," you clearly absolutely diqualified yourself for the task, due to obvious lack of insight and knowledge14:42
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DocScrutinizeryou CAN NOT test for stability in a way you imply here14:43
DocScrutinizerstbility tests are much more complex than you seem to think14:43
DocScrutinizerand can not be done on a single device in a finite time that would make such a script useful in any way14:44
RobbieThe1stThink: Shell script with a loop. It uses the kernel-config to lock a specific voltage/speed combo. Then plays a short video through mplayer. Then drops it one volt, repeat. Once the N900 crashes, you know its below the limit. Up it by two or three, and you'll be pretty close14:44
RobbieThe1st*voltage # not volt14:44
DocScrutinizermere utter BS14:45
RobbieThe1stHey, its what I did. Either it would crash immediately after setting the setting, within a minute of loading the video, or I'd see "decoding errors" in the mplayer console14:45
ShadowJKConsidering the forum is full of people complaining everything except microb is stable when they oc...14:45
RobbieThe1stAfter bumping all voltage numbers by three from whatever was the minimum settings I found, I haven't had a crash in over a month14:46
RobbieThe1stNot with frigging -runescape- tying up 100% of the cpu(at 950mhz), not with mplayer, and not with microB.14:46
RobbieThe1stSo, sure, it may not be perfect, and you might occasionally need to bump things a little more, but its probably pretty close.14:47
fluxwell, the end result appears to be that he has a device he's more happy with. win win, no?-)14:47
RobbieThe1stIsn't that the whole idea behind OCing anyway?14:47
tybolltlalalalalalala *covers ears* lalalalalalala14:47
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RobbieThe1stAanyway, good. I've got to get off now, but at least I was able to restore my N900 to working condition using my latest tar backup. And now I know what to do to make future tar backups work right when extracted on your desktop.14:55
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* DocScrutinizer51 remarks that a lot of people were successfull in restoring an image of their own NAND with their own unique bad block pattern. This regularly fails when restoring to another device or to an aged NAND that has just one more bad block than at the time of saving the image15:00
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* DocScrutinizer51 sighs loud and long15:01
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timeless_mbpDocScrutinizer51: yeah, that's why you shouldn't do that15:02
DocScrutinizer51OC, NAND img restore, sure finally somebody wrapped his head around all that (/sarcasm)15:03
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crashanddiedocscrutinizer: sorry, was on my lunch break, do you still need some ass whooping?15:04
DocScrutinizer51lemme think if I can find another few interesting topics for our "experts"15:04
DocScrutinizer51no thanks. damage done15:04
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DocScrutinizer51maybe robbi can also improve our borked cell charging, and fix the borked cellmo FW15:06
MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer51, always fails for me15:06
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DocScrutinizer[2010-10-14 13:07:11] <DocScrutinizer> RobbieThe1st: backupmenu? you are aware there were several guys really almost bricking their device by messing with writing to NAND/ubifs raw device while not exactly understanding the pitfalls15:15
DocScrutinizer[2010-10-14 13:07:27] <RobbieThe1st> Yea...15:15
RST38hDoc: They just never listen...15:17
DocScrutinizerI need to improve my communicative skills. like "never ask <xy> if he's suffering from xy, nobody ever seems to admit. Most even donno"15:17
jacekowskiyou can't brick device that way15:18
jacekowski coldflash can still recover it15:18
DocScrutinizernot *really*, but almost15:18
DocScrutinizerfor yet unknown reasons NOLO seems unable to recover from a messed up bad black management on NAND.15:19
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DocScrutinizerwhile you'd think NOLO should do a nand-erase on flashing, MohammadAG51 had to do this explicitly, to recover from raw write to mtd15:20
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MohammadAG51it didn't even start flashing15:21
jacekowskiyeah it checks crc of these blocks15:21
infobotjacekowski meant: yeah it checks checksum of these blocks15:21
jacekowskiMohammadAG51: how is your arabic?15:22
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MohammadAG51it's my first language lol15:22
DocScrutinizera popular M$ crap15:22
jacekowskiwell, you live in israel so i wasn't sure15:23
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* MohammadAG51 doesn't know a lot of hebrew15:23
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DocScrutinizertimeless: jacekowski: MohammadAG51: do you think we could explain the problem to Jaffa in a way so council finally puts a "***DEPRECATED***" tag to backup-menu in repo?15:35
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crashanddiedocscrutinizer: "This app will kill devices."15:37
DocScrutinizerlike ->" In this version it is ***DEPRECATED*** and most likely will kill your device. DO NOT mess with mtd unless you understand *exactly* what's going on in ubifs and NAND bad block management"15:38
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jaskaspontaneous lithium fusion?15:39
JaffaDocScrutinizer: See maemo-community; why you picking on me? :-p None of you seemed to have chimed in on the thread, so go there - do it properly.15:40
DocScrutinizer"Rationale: NAND bad blocks are individual for every single device, and also may change over time. So what works for you today, will not work for anybody else, nor for you tomorrow"15:40
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DocScrutinizer"if it fails, you *are in serious trouble* as even reflashing from scratch doesn't work anymore"15:42
JaffaDocScrutinizer: There's no comment against the package either, AFAICT - where you could add that warning yourself:
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DocScrutinizerI'm not up to issue such warning, as I never tested the package15:43
DocScrutinizersomebody with higher authority has to aggregate and evaluate out concerns, and put a proper comment there15:44
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: somebody with higher authority has to aggregate and evaluate our concerns, and put a proper comment there15:44
SpeedEvilIs there any way to add a bi-weekly event in the calendar?15:46
DocScrutinizeruse alarmed ;-D15:47
SpeedEvilI was more meaning an app of some form. Oh well.15:48
DocScrutinizeror edit the database directly, I guess on lowest level you can have arbitrary intervals (if the db design isn't completely braindamaged)15:48
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DocScrutinizerummm, alarmed *is* an app15:49
DocScrutinizera nice one, I must add15:49
SpeedEvilI mean to add calendar entried15:49
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DocScrutinizerwell, bviously calendar doesn't offer biweekly15:50
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DocScrutinizernor some other quite useful definitions, like "last <weekday> of every month" etc15:52
fluxspeedevil, I did bi-weeklies via google calendar, but I suppose that doesn't work for everyone ;)15:52
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DocScrutinizerflux: and, do they work on maemo calendar as supposed, even without weekly syncs to google?15:52
fluxit should have "enter repetition expression here" field ;)15:53
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fluxdocscrutinizer, well, atleast I have such events for five years ahead15:53
DocScrutinizeraddressbook and calendar are rudimentary, and Nokia keeps it all closed source, to "differentiate" to the worse15:54
fluxdocscrutinizer, I haven't tried removing one for the phone, that will it provide me with a choice to remove them all15:54
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fluxactually I have them up to 2037, which is as far the calendar will jump..15:55
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DocScrutinizerflux: the question is whether it's a recurring single event, or just a huge bunch of genereated single events15:55
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fluxdocscrutinizer, it's difficult to tell. from end-user perspective, if works, though.15:55
DocScrutinizerflux: you might edit one of those in 2012 and see if all get altered15:55
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fluxdocscrutinizer, I don't want to edit it for the chance it might not work ;)15:56
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DocScrutinizermaybe you might create a test event for that purpose?15:57
DocScrutinizersorry I got no google calendar otherwise I'd test myself15:57
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MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, Output 5V, 1.0A MAX16:00
DocScrutinizerthat reminds me... My online-banking had bimonthly recurring money transfers once. Then they removed that option, and I wasn't able to edit that particular order anymore :-D16:00
MohammadAG51got a new adapter16:00
DocScrutinizersome time it even made their server crash16:00
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG51: eh?16:01
MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, I can't figure out how to use it with a hub though, it outputs power to a usb port16:01
MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, got rid of the retarded adapter that pushed 7V when set to 316:01
MohammadAG51(10 when set to 4.5 and 20 when set to 9)16:01
DocScrutinizerhehe, you'll need a USB->whatever adapter16:01
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MohammadAG51or a Y cable maybe?16:02
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DocScrutinizerbasically the inverted thing to a CA-146A16:02
DocScrutinizerY-cable may work as well, yes16:02
DocScrutinizerthough it does different things to the 'host'16:03
DocScrutinizera powered hub usually doesn't feed VBUS upstream16:03
DocScrutinizera Y-cable does16:03
MohammadAG51<DocScrutinizer> a powered hub usually doesn't feed VBUS upstream - I didn't get this part :p16:04
fluxdocscrutinizer, well, it appears to work in a funny way16:04
fluxdocscrutinizer, once I create an event to occur once every two weeks, it syncs fine16:04
JaffaDocScrutinizer: Right, and I've basically started the ball rolling on that on maemo-developers: inviting someone to evaluate the concerns and issue a warning. If you're that concerned, why not add a comment saying "There are concerns, see this thread: <link>"16:04
fluxdocscrutinizer, if I modify it, it suddenly occurs (per the device) every week16:04
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG51: when you plug your N900 to upstream port of an externally powered hub, it won't charge16:04
MohammadAG51oh, that16:05
fluxdocscrutinizer, if I then remove it from the google calendar and sync again (to the device), all repetitions are removed16:05
fluxdocscrutinizer, so quite possible the 1-week-limitation is only in the user interface16:05
flux(modifying the event enforces the maximum weekly repetition it knows)16:05
DocScrutinizerflux: ack, as expected16:06
fluxstupid :(. when I've done similar systems, I've always given an additional entry for whatever the pre-set value is even though the gui doesn't support it16:06
DocScrutinizerJaffa: sorry, I wasn't aware of any of those threads in tmo/ML/whatever16:06
DocScrutinizerflux: this concept of "the basics can do it, but the UI doesn't support it" can be found all over maemo. See profiles, starhash, anywhere you look at16:09
fluxdocscrutinizer, maybe there's a hierarchy of coders, the better ones write the core components :P16:09
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DocScrutinizeryou might think that's close to reality16:10
JaffaDocScrutinizer:, "RobbieThe1st" replied - but I've only just realised it was just to me.16:10
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RST38hBadgers Digging Up Ancient Human Remains!16:15
jaskanom nom nom16:16
DocScrutinizer~backupmenu is
infobotDocScrutinizer: okay16:17
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DocScrutinizerflux: thanks for the hint, and for testing :-D16:18
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DocScrutinizerJaffa: this mail plus the followup seem sufficiently clear, all it'd need now was a way to let trustful user know about it (like a warning popup when installing, with the particular URL as of above)16:21
timeless_mbpJaffa: did you really thread that way?16:24
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RST38hOk, the "wonderful news" thread degenerated into a lemming bazaar pretty quickly16:29
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dneary_RST38h, Which one?16:30
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DocScrutinizerJaffa: I added a comment to
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DocScrutinizerjaska: as the changelog doesn't indicate there were any fixes from backupmenu_0.31-2.tar.gz Frantisek Dufka checked in, to that version, regarding the dangerous dd16:37
crashanddie__you got tabpwned, docscrutinizer16:37
DocScrutinizersorry jaska16:37
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JaffaDocScrutinizer: I've replied to Robbie asking him to do something16:39
DocScrutinizeryeah, remove the package from repo :-D16:39
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MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, or remove the backup/restore rootfs option16:41
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MohammadAG51as for mmcblk1, I don't see it harmful(?)16:41
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG51: fair enough, for eMMC it should work flawlessly16:41
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MohammadAG51as for ssh, it's useful16:42
MohammadAG51it saved me from bricking my device twice16:42
DocScrutinizeri've never tested it as I knew from beginning this can't work16:42
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alteregoI repaired a bricking situation with meego a litle while ago.16:48
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alteregoDual boot does have a fair few positives ^.^16:49
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MohammadAG51alterego, true, but NOLO refused to get to the bootmenu16:53
MohammadAG51i had to pass custom kernel parameters to boot from a different root16:54
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dsgIs it known if the meego dual-boot support in PR1.3 will involve both using the same kernel version, or if NOLO is updated to be able to boot different kernels?17:01
dsgThe latter would be awesome. :)17:01
Stskeepsdsg: so, the blog post wasn't 100% precise. what will be done is based upon ali1234's u-boot work17:02
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Stskeepsso if you plug in a sd card with a uimage, it'll boot from there, otherwise boot the normal maemo kernel17:02
dsgAh, ok, thanks. That's great news.17:03
E0xStskeeps: that see very practical17:03
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E0xis like a live cd17:04
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MohammadAG51Stskeeps, glad i contributed to all this17:06
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MohammadAG51apparently me calling ali1234 a troll got him motivated, and he ported uboot :P17:06
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spinningcompassMohammadAG51: When Mohammad speaks, the World listens. ;)17:08
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DocScrutinizersounds to me like PR1.3 is supposed to ship a new NOLO? I'd like to know *exactly* what this new NOLO implements17:22
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DocScrutinizere.g security framework...?17:23
Stskeepsnew nolo, what?17:23
DocScrutinizererr, do you chainload uboot from NOLO? or how is that true dualboot supposed to work then?17:24
DocScrutinizer(chainload uboot even for starting maemo)17:25
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: yes17:25
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DocScrutinizerduh, that's the standard stock system as shipped by Nokia for PR1.3??17:25
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Stskeepsno, news sites are blowing kexec patch out of proportions17:26
DocScrutinizerhmm, I really don't get the whole picture. Could you (or dsg) share a link to that blogpost or any other starting point for this story please17:27
Stskeepsbasically harri got confused by the multiboot solution we'd be using in meego/n900 (it was supposed to be with kexec in the past, but now we have uboot.)17:28
Stskeepsand we got the patch for kexec into PR1.3 kernel17:28
DocScrutinizeraah, ok. Thanks for clarifying that17:28
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Stskeepsu-boot is just much saner than a /sbin/preinit hack with kexec17:29
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DocScrutinizerhow much does it bite out of NAND?17:30
Stskeepsit merges together with the kernel as one image17:30
Stskeepsthe kernel being the maemo kernel17:30
Stskeepsso if it doesn't find a uimage on sd, it boots maemo kernel instead17:30
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DocScrutinizercool shit17:30
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DocScrutinizeryou got USBtty uboot console?17:31
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Stskeepsthink so17:31
DocScrutinizererr, probably you'd not need that as we got a decent keyboard, but anyway17:31
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Stskeepsi can explain all i want but code speaks better17:32
xDaReaperxwhats a NOLO ?17:34
DocScrutinizerNOkia bootLOader17:34
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xDaReaperxoh okay17:34
xDaReaperxshould they show up a Stylish looking boot screen with advanced GUI , or just a plain one ?17:35
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: I'm not an uBoot expert, but I think there's been an issue with ext2/3fs inode size which keeps uBoot from loading kernel off a standard ext2 partition and so creates need for a FAT partition17:36
DocScrutinizermaybe this special uBoot can get the patches to work with 256byte inodes (instead of 128 ?), so you don't need the FAT partition at all17:37
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: ah, that might be the problem i was encountering before17:37
Stskeepsgot a URL for patches?17:37
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DocScrutinizerlemme check my age-old bookmarks, could take a while17:37
ieatlintis there a way to see if the gps has been turned on?17:38
ieatlintlike a path in /sys or something17:38
DocScrutinizerfor now you can check man mkfs.ext2 and set inode size to 128 (that's been default until some years ago, when they changed it in mkfs.ext it seems uBoot broke and nobody cared to fix it)17:39
DocScrutinizerieatlint: phonet17:39
DocScrutinizerieatlint: i.e. it's not simple probably17:40
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ieatlintbleh, ok17:40
MohammadAG51check if location daemon's running ieatlint17:40
ieatlinti am pissed at qtmobility again..17:40
ieatlinti've got a "location-proxy" process, only one with location in its name17:41
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MohammadAG51umm, start maps or sth17:41
ieatlintpreviously qtm would give me approx location estimates that seemed to be based off the cell and not the gps (6.5km accuracy, which is shitty for cell even)... now it won't even give me anything, just sends updates with no data17:42
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ieatlintand qtm also is reporting it ONLY supports gps on the phone, so wtf17:43
ieatlintand yeah, maps launches location-daemon, so qtm is doing something wrong17:43
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ieatlinti assume location-daemon will also start when it's doing the cell tower based location estimate?17:45
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DocScrutinizerieatlint: ask luke-jr_, he's supposed to know quite a bit about where to look at to find out if cellmo has started GPS chip or not17:51
SpeedEvillocation-test-gui shows a nice GUI17:52
DocScrutinizerieatlint: usually you (the user / app-devel) aren't supposed to know about current state of GPS chip17:52
ieatlintok, i have slightly more info now at least, as location-daemon wasn't running at times, so i definitely know there's an issue there17:52
ieatlinti'm still unsure if the data that qtm occasionally reports is from the gps or not though17:52
DocScrutinizerthe liblocation is designed to hide those details away and handle power management regarding GPS chip activation in a transparent way17:53
ieatlintwell, the c liblocation lets you concretely ask for the gps location or the location from the cell tower estimate... qtm blurs that more, as you set "preferred" methods17:53
SpeedEvilPart of the problem is that there is not two positions.17:54
SpeedEvilThere is one position estimate that can e configured tro work out position in differentr ways.17:54
DocScrutinizerieatlint: that's not completely correct. liblocation also doesn't guarantee for a location report NOT being of higher quality than the one you requested17:55
SpeedEvilThis means that if you have a GPS requiring app, and something specifies that it'd like cell positioning, it's gonna fail17:55
lardmanieatlint: iirc you can also ask for preferred with the C calls17:55
ieatlintmy very basic gps app using qtm works only sometimes... seems about 5 out of 10 times it won't actually start location-daemon, and just reports a bunch of nan values, 3/10 it reports data that has a >6km accuracy, and that lucky remaining 2/10 i get valid data17:55
DocScrutinizerieatlint: you're supposed to check precision of location msgs, to determine if it is sufficiently precise for your purpose17:56
DocScrutinizerieatlint: I.E. even when you ask for AGPS locations, this doesn't avoid some only cell tower based locations being sent until GPS actually gets a fix17:57
ieatlintyeah, my issue was that i could sit for 10min getting only data with a 6+km accuracy, then close the app, open up maps, and get a 50m accuracy lock in under 10s17:57
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lardmanis Maps overriding the settings setting?17:58
DocScrutinizercheck the bug on tacker for that17:58
ieatlintbut every once in a while, the qtm based app will just work17:58
ieatlintdid a quick search, will try and be more thorough17:58
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ieatlintfound out that the reported accuracy for qtm on maemo before qtm-location 1.0.2 had an awesome bug: reported its accuracy in cm instead of meters, heh (copying liblocation's val without adjusting)17:59
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DocScrutinizerbasically with A the GPS is supposed to get a fix quite quickly, while without network connectivity it may take several minutes.17:59
ieatlintyeah, i understand18:00
ieatlintbut there is also location estimation that never turns on the gps chip as i understand it18:00
DocScrutinizerovi map (plus several other apps) stop the GPS if there's no fix after 60s18:00
DocScrutinizerdunno what this qt thing's gonna do18:01
ieatlintLOCATION_METHOD_ACWP in liblocation "Assisted Complementary Wireless Positioning: A method where device is located based on cellular base station to which device is registered to."18:01
DocScrutinizer:nod: ?18:02
ieatlintso my issue is that it appeared that qtm was using that method only at times18:02
DocScrutinizeryou don't need to quote the other 518:02
ieatlintwasn't about to :P18:02
ieatlintanyway, i'll go look through qtm bug reports and see if i see anything of note, heh18:03
DocScrutinizeryes, if some other app requested for a 'better' method, then this will override ACWP18:03
lardmanieatlint: what is your app out of interest?18:03
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ieatlintlardman: public transit app18:04
ieatlintgps to auto-find nearby stops, etc18:04
DocScrutinizerieatlint: check fahrplan18:04
lardmanand the assumption is that in a city the cell assist location is accurate enough?18:04
DocScrutinizerthough that's a webapp18:04
DocScrutinizernope, never will18:05
ieatlintno, the cell assist isn't is the point18:05
ieatlintbut qtm keeps going to it, even though qtm says that it's an unsupported method18:05
DocScrutinizerqtm API seems poorly designed?18:06
ieatlintyeah, i'll stop my bitching soon and just use liblocation, which i know works reliably18:06
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ieatlintdunno about fahrplan, but the backend i'm using is only found in the US and canada18:07
DocScrutinizerieatlint: bug #702618:08
povbotBug Can't get a GPS lock with several satellites at view18:08
lardmanwell in that case you might want to check the free (as in data) location request that's one further up the list ;)18:08
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DocScrutinizerieatlint: it's really lengthy but going thru all of it gives you quite an idea how location is working, and why18:08
ieatlintDocScrutinizer: hmmm... are you suggesting that qtm is only using gps and not agps?18:08
DocScrutinizerieatlint: I suggest nothing regarding qtm - tbh I got nfc what that is at all18:09
ieatlintqtm == qtmobility18:09
lardmanieatlint: does it start a net connection when you run qtm?18:09
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ieatlintqt's wrapper api for device-specific things like gps so that apps can be written across multiple devices without rewriting parts18:10
ieatlintlardman: uh, well i'm already running a net connection..18:10
fcrochikieatlint: did you try "geeps"? It uses qtm for location and it seems to work...if doesn't for you it may be some other issue18:10
lardmanieatlint: ah, fair enough18:10
lardmanieatlint: was just wondering if qtm was having troubles/not allowed to connect to grab assistance data, etc18:11
lardmanbut apparently not18:11
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ieatlintfcrochik: thanks.. am looking at it now18:12
ieatlintwill assume you're the author, so you apparently have fared better with it than me18:12
lardmanfcrochik: that's also a webapp isnt' it? In which case the location stuff is handled by the browser plugin I assume18:12
ieatlintnah, looking at his source now, it's in qt18:13
DocScrutinizerieatlint: at least that notorious infamous 60s timeout would explain your >>then close the app, open up maps, and get a 50m accuracy lock in under 10s<<18:13
fcrochiklardman: no....I handle the location on the app and just tricked the webkit/gmaps to get it18:13
lardmanoh right18:13
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fcrochiklardman: the new qtwebkit is supposed to implement the location but I did not want to have to force everybody to install a complete new webkit and also wanted to track the coordinates on the qt side so I can play with them18:14
fcrochiklardman: when I say new qwebkit I mean the one that hasn't been release and probably won't for a while by what I understood...18:15
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fcrochikieatlint: for me it takes a few seconds to lock depending on where I am and then the very first updates are very innacurate....but then gets to the spot...18:16
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lardmanfcrochik: was I just blind, but when I tried it I couldn't see where to enter my search term e.g. banks18:17
ieatlintfcrochik: was it necessary for you to do the QGeoSatelliteInfoSource::createDefaultSource()  in addition to the QGeoPositionInfoSource?18:17
lardmanfcrochik: would be nice to add an area of uncertaintly to the map18:17
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fcrochiklardman: no...that is what I am working on right now....I was hoping to use google places api for that but didn't get a key from google....I am going to implement the json google search api for "local search"18:18
fcrochikieatlint: I think so....18:18
lardmanor you could let people use their own keys, but that's a faff18:18
ieatlinthmm, ok, that could be my problem then18:18
ieatlintalthough the fact that it works sometimes without that is... weird18:19
crashanddie__lardman, faff? Fucking Anal Freedom Fighter?18:19
fcrochikieatlint: one sample code I found (and can't find again) had some code for you wait/monitor the satellite acquiring the you would not report the position until was close18:19
ieatlintwell, in theory just watching the horizontal accuracy should be enough for that18:20
lardmancrashanddie__: well, could possibly be that too, but I was thinking more along these lines:
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fcrochikieatlint: I guess so.... just thought it probably would be cool to know more information about the sattelite part...just curious...18:21
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ieatlintyeah, i understand..18:22
ieatlintjust trying to see if that is somehow my problem18:22
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ieatlintyeah, nope, 5 runs after adding that and each time it fails to start location-daemon... i never get even wildly inaccurate data, entire just a series of nan -- but it still keeps triggering positionUpdate()18:24
* lardman looks at white screen in GeePS and wonders why there are no maps showing18:24
fcrochiklardman: you have to have the internet connection stablished before you run it....18:25
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fcrochiklardman: it will start the "connect" thing but will fail to load the page even if you select a connection18:25
lardmanah I see18:25
lardmandoesn't remember settings either18:25
fcrochiklardman: one more qtm api to play with at some point :)18:26
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lardmandoes it give you the horizontal position accuracy?18:26
lardmanin code that is18:26
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fcrochiklardman: I remember altitude only... at least on the position updates... maybe the "source" for satellite or "position" will give you that18:28
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lardmanhmm, shame the IM client can't be set to show position if available, and not keep the gps running if nothing else is using it18:28
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lardmanfcrochik: would be worth drawing a circle around the "you are here" marker so people know how accurate the fix is18:28
lardmanmuch like google do on their maps18:28
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* lardman curses Maps every time he uses it as it doesn't have one, no idea if I'm 10m or 1mile away from the dot18:29
fcrochiklardman: I did not find anything on qtm that will give me that...was just looking at it right now18:29
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lardmanhasProperty() and property on the QGeoPositionInfo18:31
fcrochikieatlint: seems that the only other information you can get is the list of satellites in view and in use18:31
lardmanQGeoPositionInfo::HorizontalAccuracy as the value18:31
ieatlintand their signal strength it looks18:31
fcrochiklardman: cool! didn't see it18:31
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lardmanI think the GPS class is a subclass of the basic QGeoPositionInfo class18:32
lardmanwell that's what I'm guessing without actually studying the docs too much anyway ;)18:32
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fcrochiklardman: GPS class? where?18:33
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lardmanI was thinking of NMEA and Satellite info18:33
ieatlintlardman: nah, qgeosatelliteinfosource inherits qobject18:33
lardmanbut think I was acutally wrong18:33
ieatlintand qgeopositioninfosource does have several values to give things like horizontal accuracy, veritical accuracy and speed18:34
fcrochikieatlint: qgeopositioninfosource or QGeoPositionInfo?18:35
ieatlinterr, yes, qgeopositioninfo18:35
ieatlint has the full list of attributes18:35
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ieatlintthe direction may also be of use for you, although as it's based on movement, it can be wildly inaccurate18:36
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lardmanmight be more useful if a future device includes an e-compass and this data is integrated18:36
fcrochikieatlint: what was my next question. I assume we don't get QGeoPositionInfo::MagneticVariation, right?18:37
lardmanyou can query it ;)18:37
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fcrochiklardman: I will...I will... :(18:37
dnearyHi all18:37
ieatlintthis is what we get, it seems: "QGeoPositionInfo(QDateTime("Thu Oct 14 08:36:44 2010") , QGeoCoordinate(NN.7918, -NN.48, 64.5), Direction=247.6, GroundSpeed=1.656, VerticalSpeed=0, HorizontalAccuracy=45.94, VerticalAccuracy=80)"18:38
dnearyFeedback needed on the updated packaging docs18:38
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ieatlintaccuracy is in metres for qtm-location 1.0.2, and cm for 1.0.0 and 1.0.1 (heh)18:38
dnearySee <--18:38
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dnearyhi crashanddie18:40
ieatlintthe third value of qgeocoordinate there is the altitude in metres... which on most consumer gps devices is usually a joke18:40
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dnearyI just updated the Packaging docs to explain how to package a pixmap & desktop file18:40
ieatlinti think 30m vertical accuracy is considered very good :P18:40
fcrochikdneary: Isn't the icon supposed to be 64?18:40
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dnearyCare to give it a quick once-over & see if you can spot anything incorrect?18:40
lcukieatlint, yeah and it gets really screwed when you leave earth gravity well18:40
dnearyfcrochik, Looks fine at 48x48 for me18:40
dnearyfcrochik, I *was* slightly confused between the uuencoded pixmap in debial/control and the icon for the menu18:41
fcrochikyes...I think the uuencoded is 48 ..but the one in the menu is 6418:41
dnearyfcrochik, If you want to be strict about it, I could create icons at different sizes18:41
ieatlintlcuk: that's an unproven myth18:42
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dnearyfcrochik, Can you find me a reference for that, please? I have spent a couple of hours hunting for information on what Maemo expects in a desktop file over & above the desktop spec18:42
dnearyAll those custom fields don't seem to be documented anywhere18:42
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lardmanlcuk: it's geometric afaiu18:42
ieatlinti like that in the US, the military has a altitude limit at which consumer gps units are no longer allowed to function18:43
DocScrutinizer(<ieatlint> the direction may also be of use for you, although as it's based on movement, it can be wildly inaccurate) how can a movement vector direction be accurate for anything else than what it actually is, like orientation of device or whatever you implied? They are unrelated complementary info entities18:43
lardmanieatlint: and a speed limit18:44
lcuko_O speed limits too?18:44
mgedmin"you will not use our GPSes to drive your cuise missiles"18:44
lardmanyeah, to prevent use on homemade ballistic missiles ;)18:44
dnearylcuk, You're a shit-hot Maemo coder... could you have a quick look & make some suggestions?18:44
ieatlintDocScrutinizer: well the issue is that when standing still, your gps is likely to report slight position changes, which can cause your reported direction to be inaccurate18:44
lcukyet you can use it on aircraft - whats the limit lardman ?18:45
lardmanmgedmin: depends how slowly your cruise missile flies, and how low ;)18:45
fcrochikdneary: I don't think I remember how I got to the conclusion but one idea would be to just make a screen shot of the menu to see the size of the icon there.... the uuencoded version I read somewhere....will look for more18:45
mgedmincruise dirigibles still dangerous18:45
lardman999knots or somesuch18:45
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dnearyI don't necessarily want to push people towards autotools, but I don't know of any good docs on using anything other than that with Maemo & Debian packaging18:45
* lardman googles18:45
DocScrutinizerthe direction of a null-length vector is moot anyway,isn't it?18:45
lcukdneary, the qt apps do not use autotools do they?18:46
dnearythey may18:46
dnearyBut most usually don't18:46
dnearyKDE apps use Cmake18:46
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dnearyAnd Qt suggests using project files18:46
dnearyAnd I think Nokia are pushing people towards something else again18:46
ieatlintDocScrutinizer: fare enough18:46
lardman512m/s or 18km18:46
dnearyBut it's quite independent18:46
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dneary(autotools just tells you how to build something - and so do all the other things)18:47
lcuklardman, come on, we are English, how many hogs to the horsehead?18:47
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dnearyYou could even use ant or scons for a Qt app, if you wanted18:47
fcrochikdneary: did you get my email? am I completly wrong on how you should package an app?18:47
lardman72 566 929.1 inches per hour18:47
dnearyfcrochik, When did you send an email?18:47
dnearyfcrochik, I have not checked in an hour or so18:48
lardmanlcuk: or 1145.31138 mph18:48
fcrochikI replied to your message on maemo-devel18:48
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lcukdneary, also remember you can use simple makefiles, or nothing at all just modifying the debian package itself (mostly useful for script installs)18:48
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GeneralAntilleslardman, hey-ho.18:48
dnearyYes - I see your mail now. Let me read through it...18:48
lcukhehe lardman cool18:48
lardmanhey GeneralAntilles18:48
GeneralAntilleslardman, got sponsorship.18:48
DocScrutinizerlo GAN90018:48
dnearylcuk, Yes, and since in theory you could be building for just one platform, simple Makefiles might be acceptable18:48
dnearyBut as I said on-list, a lot of the time you're repackaging existing software, or starting with whatever you know18:49
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lardmanGeneralAntilles: good show, I guess that means I'll have to come on over then to abuse you in person :)18:50
RST38hheya lardman18:50
lcukdneary, sure, if the existing tooling is using autotools, it would not be trivial to change it over18:50
lardmanhi RST38h18:50
GeneralAntilleslardman, indeed.18:50
fcrochikdneary: the document you are reviewing is the source of my idea that the uuencoded icon should be 48.....18:50
dnearylcuk, Depends on the application18:50
lcukdneary, sure18:51
dnearyfcrochik, I didn't invent that - it was there before I started :)18:51
* RST38h wonders what prevents people from writing crossplatform Makefiles18:51
lcukRST38h, nothing18:51
RST38hAll your platforms use gmake anyway, don't they?18:51
lcukI have a makefile in liqbase18:51
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lcukit happily builds on arm and x8618:51
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* lardman needs to send his passport off to get an Indian visa, better do that fast otherwise it won't be back in time18:52
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RST38hlardman: www....w.wwww....why18:52
fcrochikdneary: I know that works just fine that way... :) My only point is that you if the icon on the programs menu is really 64 you probably should include a 64 at least18:52
lardmanRST38h: trip18:53
StskeepsRST38h: freebsd has qt ;p18:53
RST38hlcuk: then ants, cmakes, sconses, and other abominations deserve an occam razor.18:53
Stskeepsand make != gmake18:53
RST38hStskeeps: FreeBSD had Qt (and KDE) for years18:53
RST38hStskeeps: And FreeBSD also has gmake.18:53
dnearylcuk, Right... but if ever you decide to make a generic desktop version, you'll need to be able to adapt to different install prefixes (/opt, /usr/local, etc)18:53
RST38hlardman: Don't eat. Or drink. :)18:54
dnearylcuk, And perhaps different toolchains (Sun or IBM vs GNU)18:54
dnearyetc, etc18:54
fralsqmake über alles?18:54
RST38hdneary: Doable with makefiles.18:54
lardmanI know, been before - vege curries all the way, quite pleasant actually18:54
lcukdneary, crossing different bridges as they come to, i understood simple makefiles before anything else and setting/unsetting a few switches based on the system configuration isn't much of a problem at the moment18:54
RST38hlardman: heh18:54
lardmanand beer, due to the alcoholic steralisation only, promise18:54
fralso/ lcuk btw18:55
fralsyou still in HEL?18:55
dnearyPeople like to rag on autotools a lot, but one thing you can say for it is that it's made the standard build process be no more complicated than ./configure && make && make install18:55
RST38hlardman: that is what they told me when they refused me a Trinidad visa18:55
lcukyes I am frals, I just got back from meeting sampo18:55
lardmandneary: when it works... ;)18:55
dnearylcuk, Sure - there's nothing wrong with Makefiles18:55
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RST38hlardman: "As you do not drink rum, you won't survive there anyway"18:55
lcukwas nice to see you but you left before we had a chance to sit down18:55
lcukare there any bars open now? :D18:55
dnearylcuk, And when all the world's a GNU/Linux... ;-)18:55
lardmanRST38h: :)18:55
lcukdneary, *nod*18:55
RST38hdneary: Autotools made MY build process a nightmare.18:55
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lcukthats why I said about changing systems18:56
fralslcuk: yeah, gotta an awful cold atm so dead tired all the time18:56
lardmandneary: my issue with autotools is the wierd and wonderful variables you have to define to fix things that don't want to build18:56
lardmanfar nicer just to see it all before you18:56
fralslcuk: in finland bars are always open :P18:56
lcukits tough to justify retesting and checking when a simple tweak to whatever existing system is in use18:56
RST38hdneary: Besides, autotools are largely useless nowadays, as the toolchains and architectures got unified18:56
lcukmy new helicopter is awesome btw :D18:57
dnearylardman, Example?18:57
lcukits tiny!18:57
fralshelicopter? :D18:57
lcukand its tricky, but it flies well18:57
dnearyRST38h, Yes, free software has won (yay!)18:57
lardmandneary: will have to dig through my old mathematical software rules files18:57
lcukI got it from the hardware store just down from NRC18:57
dnearyStill... cc, gcc, icc, distcc, ...18:57
RST38hdneary: Not just free software, but specific free software (gcc, linux) and hw architectures (x86, arm, some mips)18:57
lcuktracy got me a new battery for my bigger helicopter in the uk, but this one is really small18:58
DocScrutinizerI thought in Finland the bars are called bank-to-rip-you18:58
RST38hdneary: I build with microsoft c++, gcc, and watcom c, using same makefiles18:58
dnearybusybox, scratchbox, ulibc, GNU libc, ...18:58
* lcuk likes taking off from the floor and landing on the chair18:58
RST38hdneary: Not difficult at all18:58
lcukPackage and Deployment wizard FTW!18:58
lardmanlcuk: I've got one somewhere but it's a bugger to fly, need a bigger room18:58
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lcuklardman, I once took my bigger helicopter outside!18:59
lardmanlcuk: is yours a counter-rotating prop job?18:59
DocScrutinizerand sure they can be open 24/7, as a single sold beer will compensate for the monthly rent18:59
RST38hdneary: again, using same makefiles, I support Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, Windows, and bloody MSDOS18:59
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lcukits bigger but still indoor model18:59
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lardmanlcuk: how big is big?18:59
lcukeverything was fine till I peeked over the wall18:59
DocScrutinizera second for the personal18:59
dnearyRST38h, So help pitch in with the beginner's Packaging article then ;)18:59
lcuklardman, my bigger one is a twister bell 47 - indoor model still18:59
RST38hdneary: What OS, where ?18:59
lardmanlcuk: I think I need to sneak into the sports hall here and try flying with some more space around19:00
lardmanperhaps during the upcoming exams :)19:00
lcuklardman, the NRC has a great big area perfect for flying19:00
lcukI would like to get a model large enough to fly around there if I would be allowed one day :)19:00
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RST38hdneary: Well, you will not be interested in my contribution, as it says "Prerequisites: autotoools" right there19:00
RST38hdneary:I do not package using autotools19:01
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DocScrutinizerautotools, nuts like bison/yacc19:03
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DocScrutinizerlcuk: I'd like to have a model large enough for my 60kg payload :-D19:07
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lcukwell DocScrutinizer I want one large enough to carry enough electronics to do full telemerty and processing19:08
lardman+ hellfire missiles19:09
DocScrutinizermhm, so ~350g19:09
lcuklardman, those go against the gps speed limit :P19:10
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dnearyRST38h, Prerequisites: autotools is for the autotools example19:11
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lardmanlcuk: apparently some chipsets perform a Boolean OR on the constraints19:12
lardmanand hellfires are normally low level19:12
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SpeedEvilAll compliant ones should do AND19:12
SpeedEvilThe legislation specifies that it must not work at >1000kt/60000 feet19:13
SpeedEvilwhen both are exceeded.19:13
dnearyRST38h, I would welcome alternative (valid, not confusing, not talking down other packaging methods) means of packaging apps19:13
SpeedEvilExceeding one is fine.19:13
SpeedEvilThere is a list on the ukhas wiki on usable over 60000 feet GPSs19:13
DocScrutinizeranyway it's nonsense as you can do the proper calculations on your own, in arbitrary cpu attached to a raw receiver19:13
lcuklardman, you make it sound difficult, like its rocket science or something :P19:14
lardmanSpeedEvil: ah ok19:14
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RST38hdneary: Yea, I can do that19:16
slonopotamusDocScrutinizer: artificial limitations always look weird19:16
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: isn't that obsolete heritage anyway, given the fact even 'amateurs' can build their own GPS nowadays?19:17
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: it depends.19:17
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: it is a modest amount of work to implement a GPS.19:18
DocScrutinizerso a rogue country isn't exactly looking for a 30$ commercial GPS to guide their atomic balistic missiles19:18
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: but yes - against state actors, it's now a joke.19:18
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DocScrutinizerif US-army were clever they never had introduced that limitation, but instead would have secret directional TX on their stallites that creates a severe missguidance on altitudes above 70000ft - - wait, maybe that's exactly what they've done :-P19:26
lardmannight chaps19:27
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DocScrutinizerand to avoid it becoming disclosed they usually sync the upper level with the ground level and only activate the false guidance feature when a rocket launch is detected X-P19:28
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SpeedEvilyou can't easily have a directional transmitter.19:31
SpeedEvilThe sats are usually overhead, and at halfway to GEO19:32
SpeedEvilmaking the timing anbbiguous can't be done geometrically19:32
RST38hYou do understand that inertial guidance will do just as well, as long as you are delivering a larger payload?19:35
RST38hAnd very few nations will worry about hitting the bad guy with a missile DIRECTLY ON HIS HEAD19:36
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SpeedEvilRST38h: IT doesn't work that way so much.19:39
SpeedEvilThough it's getting lots easier, an inertial platform will drift quite a ways in a flight of several thousand seconds.19:39
MohammadAG51code for live backgrounds in new hildon-desktop19:40
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SpeedEvilAn error of 1mm/s^2 adds up to a CEP variance of 500m after 20 min19:40
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RST38hSpeedEvil: According to an acquaintance, inertial positioning can retain usable precision for a couple of hours.19:42
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lcukRST38h, it depends on many more variables19:43
SpeedEvilRST38h: It depends on the quality of the platform.19:43
RST38hSpeedEvil: of course19:43
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SpeedEvilIf you pay $1000 for an INS platform, you may get a little better than 500m error in 20 mins.19:44
RST38hSpeedEvil: the platform is a large metal/fiber tube with a 20Mt warheadat the top19:44
lcukthen use facial recognition RST38h :P19:44
RST38hlcuk: Actually, early Tomahawks used terrain recognition, afaik19:44
SpeedEvilBut that assumes that it's not manouevering, which tends to add other errors.19:44
SpeedEvilAlso - accurate positioning is a force multiplier.19:45
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Myrttiare you guys on mushrooms again?19:45
RST38hSpeedEvil: No, those tubes are not very manouvrable19:45
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DocScrutinizer51you know why USSR developed the MT fusion bombs? just because their guidance wasn't exact enough, so they increased ground zero effective area19:45
MyrttiI need to start keeping a diary about all the junk you talk about19:45
RST38hMyrtti: Yes. Love those musroom clouds.19:45
SpeedEvilIf you can place your warhead within 1m, one ten million times smaller than 20mt may be quite adequate.19:45
lcukMyrtti, they would be but gps wont work when they are high19:45
DocScrutinizer51Myrtti: since 40 years19:45
RST38hDoc: Yes, Doc, I know :)19:46
lcukMyrtti, logs19:46
lcukthey exist19:46
Myrttilcuk: I know, but I need to take a note on when you're on crack and when you're not19:46
Myrttilogs wont help if I don't have a reference point19:46
RST38hMyrtti: Are you his doctor? =)19:46
* SpeedEvil is never on crack.19:46
* SpeedEvil only does prescription drugs.19:46
lcukMyrtti, keyword searches :D19:46
MyrttiRST38h: I'm just an observer of the channel19:47
Myrttithe day before yesterday it was north korean communist hamburgers19:47
RST38hSounds interesting enough19:48
DocScrutinizer51missed that one, eer no forgot19:48
RST38hBesides, what ELSE are we supposed to be talking about?19:48
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SpeedEvilHow do you tell a communist hamburger? From each according to his ability, to each accoring to his relish?19:48
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DocScrutinizer51Myrtti: the way you put it it actually sounds rather funny19:49
RST38hSpeed: No19:49
MyrttiSpeedEvil: fake north korean money used to pay for it19:49
lcukMyrtti, search the logs for "great idea" or "awesome" or something19:49
lcuktheres loads of fragments that can be backtracked19:49
RST38hSpeed: It has got a little red lapel pin stuck in it19:49
MohammadAG51lcuk, does your son have an X6?19:49
lcuksome great quotes out of context too19:49
MohammadAG51I want to make a menu similar to it19:49
MohammadAG51not sure how hildon-desktop would handle it19:50
Myrttiyesterday it was a discussion about the French, communists, monarchy and - surprise surprise - north korea19:50
lcukMohammadAG51, x319:50
Myrttiand now you're talking about nuclear bombs...19:50
RST38h...and I am sure north korea will be mentioned any time now19:50
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MohammadAG51lcuk, looks like a smiley :319:50
RST38hOk, let us talk about knitting19:51
RST38hlcuk: Do you knit, by the way? Doing it a lot?19:51
RST38hlcuk: Any cool designs you would be willing to share with a fellow knitter? =)19:52
lcukRST38h, I do not knit19:52
lcukrevdkathy does19:52
lcukand shes making a maemo jumper!19:52
DocScrutinizer51Myrtti: I already did mention it - implicitly in 'rogue country'19:52
RST38hlcuk: Back to nukes then19:52
lcukMyrtti also does needlework of some sort19:52
MohammadAG51RST38h, that's my speciality19:53
MyrttiDocScrutinizer51: there we go then19:53
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RST38hNext topic: "If Hitler had a nuke..."19:54
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DocScrutinizer51I swapped most of my nukes for a few MTHELs19:54
RST38hDoc: What do you do with the chemical residue though?19:55
* mgedmin loved the treatment of kitchen nukes in Charles Stross's _Iron Sunrise_19:55
DocScrutinizer51neighbour garden :-P19:55
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lcukwasnt there a nuke subplot in SnowCrash19:59
* lcuk tries to remember19:59
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valdynmotorbike, raven, nuke19:59
SpeedEvil'Contact patches like a fat womans thighs'.19:59
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mgedminit was sort of unresolved20:01
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lcukvaldyn, thanks!  3 words brought back enough of the plot :D20:03
DocScrutinizerRST38h: (residues) HF is nice for killing herbs, you know ;-D20:03
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RST38hDoc: HF has way more uses killing stuff, too20:10
RST38hDoc: Has your neighbor got any windows left?20:10
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fcrochikcan anybody help me with a packaging question? For the first time I am trying to use the debian folder from a previous version of the package... where do I change the version of the package? changelog? I usually start over with dh_make and it creates the version based on the dir name20:27
mgedminchangelog, yes20:28
mgedminuse dch -i or dch -a20:28
mgedminif you've got devscripts installed20:28
mgedminthat is, use dch -i, it will add a new changelog entry for you and launch an editor - - then fix the version to be what you actually want20:29
mgedminor I suppose you could use dch -v newversion20:29
fcrochikmgedmin: thanks! I will try it20:29
* mgedmin hasn't looked at dch --help in a long, long time20:29
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fcrochikmgedmin: is there any need for the  -1 (e.g. version 0.0.4-1) or can I just use 0.0.4 ?20:35
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lardman|homefcrochik: the -x is usually for bug fixes20:36
lardman|homethat don't add or alter any functionality20:36
mgedmindebian native packages don't have the -release part20:36
fcrochikgreat! thanks!20:37
mgedmindebian native packages are where upstream is the one doing the distribution20:37
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fcrochikmgedmin: thanks! so much nicer to not have to start over with dh_make... thanks!20:37
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: thanks, might have saved me a lot of trouble (ext2load)20:38
DocScrutinizer51include some credits where appropriate :-D20:39
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fcrochikjust in case: just release a new version of geeps that now save the settings and show traffic layer....20:47
RST38hfcrochik: how about adding other data sources?20:48
RST38h(also, is its cache compatible with Maep and other mapping tools?)20:48
fcrochikRST38h: other data sources? you mean for the search?20:48
RST38hfor the maps20:49
RST38hThere s OpenStreetMap (OSM), OpenBycyclingMap, Yandex, etc20:49
fcrochikRST38h: no, it is not... qtwebkit handles the caching... I don't deal with the tiles myself20:49
FauxFauxWhat, no tricycling? :(20:49
RST38hOh, almost forgot, Microsoft and Yahoo also have got maps20:49
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jaskahm, that mugen power battery delivery was quick.. ordered on 7. and arrived today :D20:50
DocScrutinizerooops no map downloading then20:50
fcrochikRST38h: I am using google maps on a browser....don't do anything with rendering the map20:50
jaskajust in time for my 30th :|20:50
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DocScrutinizerjaska: hope you'll enjoy it. All I heard so far wasn't exactly tempting20:51
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jaskamy only complaint is the camera toggle doesnt cover the lens20:51
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: I think we have several good applications to use offline... don't we? geeps relies on the internet for everything (directions, map, ...) ... the cache is just to be quicker and save some bucks on the dataplan20:52
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ShadowJKI never scratched the lens using mugen20:52
DocScrutinizerfcrochik: fair nuff20:52
jaskabut my htc-p4350 belt case fits it even with the new thickness20:52
ShadowJKjaska, btw, the battery meter is like $random for the mugen battery20:53
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lardman|homefcrochik: how do you pass across the location info? Provide a javascript callback which sends the data over from the C++ code?20:53
DocScrutinizerooh, only with mugen? X-P20:53
RST38hShadowJK: Are you actually using Mugen? Is it still comfortable? How much extra time do you get?20:53
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jaskasize/weight doesnt bother me as long as its less than 2110i with power battery pack20:54
ShadowJKRST38h, well my N900 is in hungary, or wherever they repair them20:54
fcrochiklardman|home: yes.... I tried another way too that was to add a object to the javascript so the javascript could get the current position as needed20:54
ShadowJKoohhh man, 2110i+powerbatt, that was ace :)20:54
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jaskayup, my first gsm(tm)20:54
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DocScrutinizermy first mobile20:54
lardman|homefcrochik: how did you get on with the horizontal precision data?20:54
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lardman|homeafaiu that is also passed across to the javascript call20:55
ShadowJKRST38h, the 2400mAh specification is accurate, 2400/1320 = 1.8 :)20:55
lardman|homeor rather can be20:55
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fcrochiklardman|home: it could.... I didn't get to that yet :(20:55
lardman|homenp :)20:55
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fcrochiklardman|home: check the source code for
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fcrochiklardman|home: I just call updateCenter from my C++ code passing the coordinates....I could just pass one more20:56
DocScrutinizerfcrochik: could I get a special version where center and radius of multiple circles can be entered via textinput box?20:56
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DocScrutinizerfcrochik: basically a test version of your final thing :-D20:57
lardman|homeah I see, I thought you were pretending to be the javascript location extension (or however it's called)20:57
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lardman|homebut yeah, you could do that and draw some sort of extra transparent circle I guess20:58
RST38hDoc: Of course you can:
fcrochiklardman|home: that was my first idea but then I realized that didn't have any point on going that way... in fact, I heard from the webkit people that if this is what you want you can just download the latest version of the code and will work out of the box20:58
DocScrutinizerfcrochik: I'd need that for a very special GSM based postioning project20:58
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RST38hOh no you cannot any more: they removed the applet =(((20:59
mc_teossh traffic is being monitored in my school lately20:59
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: I assume you probably would like to save the information cross sessions, no?20:59
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mc_teoso like i dont want my emails to automatically send and recieve20:59
DocScrutinizerfcrochik: not really20:59
mc_teobut i accidently press accept wrong certificates21:00
mc_teohow can i rectify21:00
keriomc_teo: they... monitor your ssh traffic?21:00
lardman|homefcrochik: why doesn#t that work in the current webkit?21:01
mc_teokerio: well i think so21:01
ieatlintmc_teo: do you mean ssl?21:01
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mc_teoi used to ssh tunnel alot21:02
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: adding to the map is a very simple javascript call .... the trick is creating a nice dialog for you so you can enter coordinates... another simple idea would be to just point to a differnet html page that you can add a simple form and call a javascript there.... what do you think?21:02
mc_teoso i think they are trying to stop that21:02
keriomc_teo: haha what21:02
keriothe point of ssh is that you can't do that because of keys21:02
kerioso you know that something is wrong21:02
keriobecause, you know, ssh tells you21:02
keriowith big letters21:02
ieatlintuh, they can block ssh, but the odds that they could perform a man in the middle attack on ssh are extremely low -- especially if they aren't specifically targetting you21:02
fcrochiklardman|home: the current (official release) of webkit does not implement the location.... I can forward you the e-mail I got if you want21:03
mc_teowell i get like invaid certs if viewing a https page21:03
ieatlinthowever if you mean ssl, it is very much so possible to do a man in the middle attack21:03
ieatlintyeah, that's ssl21:03
DocScrutinizerfcrochik: TA is radius of circle (TA-1 * 550 = inner radius of ring, TA * 550 = outer radius) the gauss krueger coords are plain geopos21:03
lardman|homefcrochik: no not to worry, was just curious21:03
mc_teoand iirc the emails check through ssl21:03
ieatlintyeah, email is either unencrypted or ssl21:04
mc_teoand it prompts me to allow invalid certs21:04
mc_teoi pressed allow by accident21:04
DocScrutinizerfcrochik: any API I can understand and somewhat handle is fine for me21:04
kerioieatlint: emails are crypted with gpg21:04
mc_teoso how can i remove that cert21:04
ieatlintkerio: no, rot1321:04
mgedminmc_teo, look under Applications -> Settings -> Certificate manager21:05
ieatlintmc_teo: so there's a certificate manager21:05
mc_teoif the encryption is effective, would they still be able to get my email and pass21:05
mgedminieatlint, twice, for extra security21:05
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: are you just trying to plot those coordinates and get a print screen?21:05
ieatlintmc_teo: yes21:05
mc_teolol @rot1321:05
fcrochikso no need for the app... I will just give you a html page, would that work?21:06
DocScrutinizerfcrochik: a map with some circles of given center and radius21:06
ieatlintmc_teo: so scroll through the list of certs -- any certs from untrusted sources will have a red line with them21:06
DocScrutinizersure, fine21:06
Venemohi guys21:06
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DocScrutinizerI need multiple circles though, in one map21:06
mgedminit's a big bloody list and I cannot see the self-signed certs I know I added manually21:06
ieatlinthrm, yeah, i've never had to do this :P21:07
mc_teoi looked at that before21:07
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ieatlintalso, it appears you can't remove certs from that list... which seems very wrong21:07
mgedminI think it only lists authorities21:07
mc_teoiirc, its called netsupport21:07
ieatlintyeah, but i should be able to untrust authorities .. like the ones in china21:08
mc_teoperhaps you import a one you made yourself21:08
mc_teoso you can find that21:08
ieatlintmc_teo: so are we talking a website, or the built-in email client on the phone?21:08
mc_teosee where theyre stored21:09
mc_teoieatlint: built in email client21:09
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: a little harder than I thought.... google maps just implement polygons I will need to create a polygon out of the circle...back to sin/cos :)21:09
mc_teoa circle is a polygon, no?21:09
mc_teojust a 1sided one21:10
DocScrutinizernot exactly, in our universe21:10
fcrochikmc_teo: depends on how you depend a polygon...generally no21:10
ieatlintmc_teo: i might try re-adding the email account on your phone and hope it prompts again21:10
mc_teowell i suppose poly means many21:10
DocScrutinizeryes, and gon refers to a straight line21:11
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fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: how do you convert gauss-krueger to lat/long?21:11
DocScrutinizerwhere straight is defined as shortest connection between 2 points21:12
DocScrutinizererrr, there are converters in the net for that21:12
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DocScrutinizer(guas krueger -> lat/lon)21:12
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: any reason why you just don't dig in into the javascript? it seems that it is all that you need...21:13
VenemoDocScrutinizer: sorry, I'm a bit late to this conversation, but what's your problem?21:13
DocScrutinizerjust one: I don't know JS :-D21:13
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JaffaOh FFS. Got a 500 errpr, but all you need to know is in the URL;
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: a very good one indeed! I will give you something to start with21:15
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DocScrutinizer <- gauss-krueger->lat/lon (windoze :-( )21:16
lardman|homehey Jaffa21:18
keriowindoze *and* german21:18
lardman|homedrippler's not far from the truth, is drip feeding down my fast connection21:19
DocScrutinizer <- browser app21:19
mc_teosince your slightly more active now21:19
mc_teosamba-common wont install21:19
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: what is the radius in? meters?21:20
mc_teoit gave a invalid postinst file21:20
DocScrutinizerfcrochik: preferably21:20
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DocScrutinizerTA=1 means 0<x<550m aiui21:20
mc_teoso i had a look at it and it had ^Ms at every newline char21:21
lardman|homemc_teo: /bin/bash rather than sh?21:21
mc_teoso i deleted them, but now it says it cant find the command ucfr21:21
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mc_teolardman|home: windows line endings, i think21:21
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lardman|homewhere did you get this package?21:23
mc_teoi have ucf installed21:23
mc_teolardman|home: im just apt'n it21:23
lardman|homefrom extras-*21:24
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mc_teowell i have testing and devel enabled, so i dont know which21:24
DocScrutinizerVenemo: you found the link to my ML post in chan backscroll?21:24
lardman|homehmm, never heard of ucf on-device21:24
lardman|homegot to go, bbiab21:24
VenemoDocScrutinizer: umm I wasn't here when you posted the link21:24
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* MohammadAG pokes DocScrutinizer
* DocScrutinizer sighs as there's that t.m.o thing in there again21:27
VenemoDocScrutinizer: hm, I haven't worked with mapping stuff yet21:27
VenemoDocScrutinizer: although it seems interesting21:27
VenemoDocScrutinizer: how does JS come into the picture?21:27
DocScrutinizer~nuke MohammadAG for pointing doc at it21:28
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at MohammadAG for pointing doc at it ... B☢☢M!21:28
DocScrutinizerVenemo: fcrochik is about to draw circles on a google map21:28
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VenemoDocScrutinizer: seems to be a fair enough solution21:29
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: done!21:30
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VenemoDocScrutinizer: lol at the TMO link... isn't this the guy who you told he was totally disqualified for this?21:31
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DocScrutinizerfor first approach to check what's really going on, yes it's nice to have. If we'd turn this into a real app or lib or whatever, we'd use trigonometry for calculating the real position21:31
DocScrutinizerVenemo: yes21:31
VenemoDocScrutinizer: omg21:31
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DocScrutinizerfcrochik: you're awesome! many thanks, and sorry I have to run right now - bbl, ttyl21:32
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: let me know if you need any changes21:32
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DocScrutinizerfcrochik: radius seems doesn't work21:34
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: just fixed....21:34
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: refresh the page21:35
fcrochikif you download the source code for the page you can run it locally and change the color, ...21:35
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DocScrutinizercan I get an inner radius, or just xor the color so a second circle with lower radius would remove the first one's center21:36
DocScrutinizerfcrochik: thanks pal :-D21:36
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fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: now you may be asking too much.... don't know if google maps will allow anything like that...21:37
DocScrutinizernp, I'll just change the colors accordingly21:37
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: you can control the transparency of each element but don't think you can make holes21:37
DocScrutinizerreally nice and ok21:37
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: it should be pretty straight forward to change colors and transparency ...and you can add some extra fields to the form if needed...let me know if you need any help...21:38
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GAN900timeless, you're on the hotel accommodation page twice.21:38
DocScrutinizerI'll use a small circle with 100% saturation, and a larger transparent one with 20%21:39
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: have fun... I have to go... be back later21:39
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mc_teoso any ideas about installing samba-common21:42
mc_teosmbclient needs it21:43
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chxOK. So, I bought an N900 :) who wants to buy my now-obsolete N810? it has the normal SD hacked back w a 32GB card...21:49
E0x1.3 will come out fast , compare to 1.221:53
mc_teowhat new features are there?21:55
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E0xnot idea , only some new boot thing for make easy/available meego/maemo dual boot21:57
SpeedEvilchx: Congrats, and no.21:58
dolpi'd like to install pr1.3 already so i could dualboot :P21:58
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infobotpr1.3 is probably a ban'able subject now..... will probably be out in 1/0 days22:00
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alteregoI like my N810, but I doubt I'll be using it again.22:01
alteregoAnd the touch screen is dead.22:01
chxis anyone interested in where to buy a refurbished N900 below $300? no advertisment, just i am shocked i was able to find it this cheap.22:04
kerioalterego: it has a known cpu and a way to load arbitrary code in a safe way22:04
keriowhy wouldn't you use it22:04
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alteregokerio: no time for toy projects :P22:05
kerioyou're a sad, sad man :(22:05
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alteregoTell me about it :(22:05
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alteregoI don't get it, mmcblk0p1 on /home/user/MyDos ..22:17
alteregoOh, actually ..22:17
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alteregoHow if mmcblk0p1 is the /home directory22:31
alteregoWhen it's my mmc card?22:31
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hatake_kakashiI believe mmc is mmcblk1p122:33
hatake_kakashierr I meant mmc as in microsd22:33
alteregoThat's what I want22:34
hatake_kakashithough the terming is quite ambiguous22:34
alteregoErm, so how come when I remove the mmc card mmcblk0 dissapears from /proc/partitions22:35
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hatake_kakashiit shouldn't.. wait are you referring to n900?22:36
hatake_kakashiit shouldn't, mmcblk0 are n900's native storage points22:37
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alteregoSomething isn't right then22:38
hatake_kakashiyou're not using meego are you?22:38
alteregoWhat does your /proc/partitions look like?22:38
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DocScrutinizer51check the corresponding ticket - there's some mess with mmc0 vs mmc1 in maemo22:40
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alteregoOh dear, something is very fucked with mine.22:41
hatake_kakashiit could just be udev issue but it doesn't really matter I suppose22:41
DocScrutinizer51originally SD is mmc0 and eMMC is mmc1, then at some point during boot it's renamed22:41
alteregoDocScrutinizer51: so much so that /proc/partitions and mount report the opposite?22:41
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alteregoOh, okay22:42
hatake_kakashilol mine is screwed yours isn't :D22:42
alteregols -l /dev/mmcblk022:42
hatake_kakashithen again I don't have any SD inside that bay right now22:42
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alteregoAh, so the device nodes are wrong too.22:43
alteregoI just want to know what to dd to!22:43
SpeedEvilI'm looking for a pastebin that allows something like going to - where foo is arbitrary, and has seperate virtual pastebins.22:44
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SpeedEvilIs there such a thing?22:44
alteregoSpeedEvil: not that I know of.22:44
povbotBug 2747: inconsistent mmc device naming at boot time when one card is missing22:45
alteregoSo, /dev/mmcblk1 -> mmcblk022:45
alteregoSo, /dev/mmcblk1 is my microsd card22:45
alteregoSo I can dd to that.22:45
hatake_kakashimmcblk0 would be yer microsd if you said when you removed microsd and mmcblk0 disappeared22:46
alteregohatake_kakashi: no, because mmcblk0 is what the kernel thinks it is, but the file under /dev is actually mmcblk1, if you look at the device node major/minor22:47
hatake_kakashiSpeedEvil, you can have a private pastebin, such as http://foo.pastebin.com22:47
hatake_kakashialterego, well I only have one when I did ls -al /dev/mmcblk?22:48
hatake_kakashiagain I don't have any microsd in bay so you need to consider that.. I used to have one but that microsd card eventually died (can't complain, it was a freebie that I found)22:49
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alteregohatake_kakashi: and the key is, what is the name of your device under /dev ;)23:05
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hatake_kakashibrw-rw---- 1 root floppy 179, 0 1970-01-01 10:00 /dev/mmcblk023:06
MohammadAGheh, the mmcblk0/1 issue delayed development of nitdroid a bit23:06
MohammadAGthey kept trying to boot from mmcblk1 when at boot time it's mmcblk023:06
RST38hbtw, is there an alternative to nitdroid that can simply run android apps in maemo?23:07
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MohammadAGRST38h, no23:07
alteregoYeah, so /proc/partitions should be ignored as it's backward :)23:07
alterego(or forward)23:07
MohammadAGunless you get a chroot image, and kexec a 2.6.35(?) kernel23:07
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MohammadAGyou could call it Easy Nitdroid23:07
MohammadAGbut doesn't android lack X?23:07
alteregoMohammadAG: indeed23:08
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MohammadAGthe Xephyr method would fail then23:08
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hatake_kakashialterego, lol I'd have nfc23:08
RST38hMohammad:I thought more along the lines of running a copy of Dalvik VM under Maemo23:09
kerioRST38h: lol!23:09
hatake_kakashiit sounds like more work then it seems23:09
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alteregoWell, if WeTab can do it ..23:10
hatake_kakashinot to mention one can run into trouble with Oracle whom recently filed a copyright infringement against Google23:10
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MohammadAGwho gives a crap about Oracle :P23:12
RST38hI do, their CEO is funny23:12
hatake_kakashimuch like Apple's CEO23:13
kerioSO FUNNEEEEH23:13
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RST38hno, they are differently funny23:15
RST38hbut, anyway, sleep.23:15
hatake_kakashiso much to stay rich, make all these patents to claim that its yours, wait for the fuckers to come onboard and then sue the living hell out of them.. reap extra cash23:15
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Venemohatake_kakashi: :D23:17
hatake_kakashiit is very much like that.. one of microsoft's joint founders recently made a court filing for IP theft when he himself is already a billionaire and donated a small portion of that wad of cash to charity23:18
MohammadAGnight RST38h23:18
hatake_kakashitalk about sleeping dragon attack pose -_-.. lay mines, wait for enemy to get victimised and blow them away23:19
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Venemocould someone help me?23:22
Venemo"dpkg-shlibdeps: error: no dependency information found for /usr/lib/ (used by debian/sticky-notes/opt/sticky-notes/sticky-notes)."23:22
Venemoit builds on my machine in Scratchbox correctly23:23
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Venemomore interestingly, on my machine, this error message is only a warning23:23
Venemobut I still don't understand it23:23
hatake_kakashimissing qmake.conf? *shrugs*23:24
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alteregoHrm, what's the command that shows xwindow ids?23:26
fcrochikVenemo: I spend the last few days batling something similar because my lib didn't have the shlibdep info. Did you create
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alteregoxwininfo actually :)23:28
Venemofcrochik: umm... well, I dunno23:28
Venemofcrochik: yes, it exists23:29
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fcrochikVenemo: I had created a qt lib and didn't have the dh_makeshlibs on my rules... when I tried to create compile an application on autobuilder that depended on it I got the exact same error....23:30
Venemofcrochik: hm... so put dh_makeshlibs into my rules file?23:30
Venemofcrochik: thanks23:30
Venemofcrochik: where should I put it?23:30
fcrochikVenemo: for the lib! not app...on the rules file23:31
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fcrochikVenemo: that is why I asked if you had created the lib... if you didn't your only option is to disable the automatic dependencies on your app23:31
Venemofcrochik: it's there but seems to be commented out... I dunno why though23:32
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Venemoso uncommenting it will make this work?23:32
fcrochikVenemo: I created a page with my scribbled notes on creating the qt lib...
Venemofcrochik: you know, the ridiculous thing about it is that this is going to be the 6th attempt on my part to make it work23:34
fcrochikVenemo: don't feel took me at least as many... and I only figured out after getting help from Attila, Daniel and Graham23:35
fcrochikVenemo: the good news is that on the second time all seems to make sense! like they say: hind sight vision is 20-2023:35
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Venemofcrochik: anyways, thanks for your help23:36
Venemofcrochik: without you, I'd probably never would have figured it out23:36
fcrochikVenemo: you are welcome.23:36
freud1hello here23:37
freud1i fnished to install maemo 2008 in my n77023:37
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freud1but i tryed to install unionfs but not working in this kernel23:38
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freud1anyone can help me for get more ram space in the n77023:38
DrGrovWho purchased the N8 today?23:39
freud1i am n77023:39
Venemofcrochik: any idea about this? dpkg-gencontrol: warning: unknown substitution variable ${misc:Depends}23:39
fcrochikVenemo: I get on all my qt is safe to ignore.... I think it is not used23:40
fcrochikVenemo: or probably even to remove from the control file but I have never tried23:40
Venemofcrochik: well then I think I'll remove the ${misc:Depends} from the control file23:40
DrGrovOr sorry, wrong channel... Sorry guys23:40
VenemoDrGrov: np23:40
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: the box you got an account at now has apache, I can create a vhost for you if you want23:43
SpeedEvil naah - it was a passing thought - I found another way.23:43
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fcrochikSpeedEvil: I just added horizontal accuracy to my app and it seems to be very unstable while stationary... is this normal?23:48
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SpeedEvilnot that23:49
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SpeedEvilit's useful23:50
fcrochikSpeedEvil: it goes from 10m to 80m and anything in between in seconds23:50
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SpeedEvilthat's not atypical23:50
fcrochikSpeedEvil: I guess there goes my dream of mapping a grocerie store :)23:51
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SpeedEvilIndoors is typically very variable due to reflections.23:51
Venemofcrochik: should I wait for the repository to import the library before I try to build the app?23:51
fcrochikVenemo: yes..23:52
Venemofcrochik: k23:52
fcrochikVenemo: probably a good idea once done is to update your scratchbox, install the package and try to build on your pc...will save few attempts23:52
fcrochikVenemo: did you create a "release" and a "dev" package?23:53
Venemofcrochik: yes23:53
alteregoHrm, 15.7G of user data to backup, this could take some time.23:53
Venemoand I also always installs the .debs onto my scratchbox23:53
fcrochikVenemo: that was the worst for me.... I was ready to give up!23:53
Venemofcrochik: it creates a "q-extras" and a "q-extras-dev" package23:54
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Venemofcrochik: it was done by qwerty12 though, because I'm a noob at this stuff23:54
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fcrochikVenemo: do you mind me asking what the q-extras does? I am always looking for more "toys" :)23:54
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Venemofcrochik: well, it contains some reusable things that I created :)23:56
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Venemofcrochik: for one, a solution to open homescreen widgets from inside an application23:56
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Venemofcrochik: and a way to show e-mail/sms style notifications from a Qt app23:57
fcrochikVenemo: I was thinking about getting all the "basic maemo5" stuff into a lib but gave up... I can only imagine that will make it impossible for any application to make to extras because you won't get the lib promoted23:57
Venemofcrochik: a lib is promoted once an app depending on the lib is promoted23:57
Venemofcrochik: this is what X-Fade says23:58
fcrochikVenemo: sounds promossing... one of these days I will have to take you on the offer to make the mycontacts widget behave more like the other widgets23:58
fcrochikVenemo: so it is not bad.... just half impossible.... My last release of mycontacts has been there for almost 20days and hasn't received one single vote... almost 100K downloads but not vote! It drives me crazy!23:59
Venemofcrochik: well, maybe you should ask people to vote23:59

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