IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2010-10-13

DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: try 'echo r >/proc/driver/musb_hdrc' - maybe also 'u'00:01
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: see, that's exactly what we need to do for hostmode: find the proper 'magic sequence' so it works even without 'proper hub'00:02
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MohammadAGapologies, apparently the hub was working, the drive was sleeping00:06
DocScrutinizerhostmode as it is now relies on HNP which involves VBUS meddling and a lot of timing critical things regarding electrics of the USB port. That's the reason it works with one peripheral and refuses to work with another one of same type - though both are for example memsticks 1G, the one may have different power consumption than the other so VBUS discharges with a different rate00:06
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nidOman, its amazing just how far *backwards* the availability of decent tablets has gone since the release of the ipad :<00:08
MohammadAGI'm using the kernel without CD/DVD support00:08
MohammadAGapt-worker needs to die00:09
DocScrutinizerindexer needs to die00:09
MohammadAGthumbnailer too00:09
DocScrutinizerfriggin thumbnailer freezes my device after first camshot, whe trying to watch the photo shot00:10
DocScrutinizerobviously it thinks it has to thumbnail the 13GB of mp3 :-S00:11
DocScrutinizer~curse the guy that had the idea to use a general index for media00:11
infobotMay you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, the guy that had the idea to use a general index for media !00:11
MohammadAGactually, it reindexes your whole library, just for the hell of it00:12
DocScrutinizercomes in handy when you try to take more than one photo at a time00:12
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FauxFauxHeh, I put 6gb of 10+MP photos in my home directory, it wasn't greatly happy about that.00:12
DocScrutinizerI'd call it a ***BUG***00:12
DocScrutinizertracker/thumbnailer IS a bug in itself00:13
DocScrutinizerand HOORAY we see same bullshit in meego(-core?)00:14
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, I don't mind tracker (on a quad core i7 running off AC)00:14
DocScrutinizerbut "you can send patches once we released 1.1" - suuuuure00:14
MohammadAGbut when tracker decides to kick in when the battery low sound goes, then it indexes the whole library till the battery dies is something I don't appreciate00:15
MohammadAGwhen the battery dies, the tracker database gets corrupt00:15
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MohammadAGso when you start up again -> (no songs), (no videos), (no images), sometimes corrupt /home00:15
DocScrutinizerI think you at least can forbid indexing while on battery00:15
nidOtbh its hardly just maemo/meego though, I have to wonder every time I ever see/use any kind of media application that mandatorily builds/maintains its own index of your content if the software's designers have ever actually used any kind of media software00:16
MohammadAGthen it rapes the battery again00:16
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, I never recharge00:16
MohammadAGI always charge the batteries externally00:16
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: yep, it's as well unbearable config option00:16
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MohammadAGcharging externally is epic00:17
MohammadAGyou get to wait twice the time00:17
DocScrutinizeras the whole mafw or whatever it's called relies on this BUG00:17
DocScrutinizerthe whole system architecture is completely useless as far as it is faintly connected to tracker. And it's obviously impossible to discuss system architecture00:20
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DocScrutinizereven for meego00:20
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pupniki almost just said a stupid thing00:22
pupniklucky for you i didn't00:22
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* DocScrutinizer heads out to get a wodka, for the shock and luck in this almost fatality00:23
pupnikcheers DocScrutinizer00:24
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pupnikso is this libpcap plus modem info turning up interesting things yet?00:24
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DocScrutinizerpupnik: I posted a link to wireshark dissecting modem commands recently, didn't you notice that one?00:25
pupniki vaguely recalled some chatter about it - don't recall the link00:26
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ShadowJKdid luke see that?00:29
pupnikhey is that gps data an 'unadvertised feature' of the phone operation?00:29
DocScrutinizerDocScrutinizer SpeedEvil: jacekowski:
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DocScrutinizerDocScrutinizer luke-jr_: ^^^00:30
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DocScrutinizerso, dunno if luke-jr_ noticed it, I tried to let him know00:31
ShadowJKpupnik, well not really. It's just that the GPS is connected to the phone side00:31
pupnikoh how droll00:32
pupnikseems that could have been kept seperate00:32
pupnikmaybe not i guess it depends on what's on the market00:32
DocScrutinizerBB5 needs access t GPS for satisfying the 'localization' requirements of 3GPP00:33
pupnikwhat's the scoop DocScrutinizer00:33
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pupnikahh ok ty00:33
pupnikwho got that requirement into 3GPP?00:34
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fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: sorry for jumping into the moving train from time to time but: I see 10 decimal places on your screenshot and I only get 4 with Qt Mobility...00:34
MohammadAGI need another N90000:34
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DocScrutinizeremergency services, like paramedics... police... FBI???00:34
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MohammadAGFBI, cause they're totally after you00:35
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DocScrutinizerfcrochik: that's not exactly my screenshot00:35
MohammadAGI'm surprised google never made it to your list DocScrutinizer00:35
DocScrutinizergoogle has no direct control over the GSM OTA protocol (yet?), so it's useless for them00:36
pupniki imagine that GPS could be really helpful for the provider to finetune their network00:36
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pupnikget more feedback on local conditions00:36
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DocScrutinizerpupnik: for that they won't rely on user devices00:37
DocScrutinizertoo unprecise, and not really needed00:37
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SpeedEvilIt's not unprecise in aggregate00:37
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DocScrutinizerand BTS aren't dynamically tuned00:37
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, DVD plays, sort of00:38
DocScrutinizerlargely the BTS freq, locations, and power and directional properties are based on calculations of a model of the whole terrain00:38
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: :-D00:39
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MohammadAGif I play the vob files, it works, but...00:39
MohammadAGMPlayer was compiled without libdvdread support.00:39
DocScrutinizerI'm sure the poor little 600MHz cpu is overwhelmed by the decoding00:39
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DocScrutinizerso the question why it's there is quite legitimate00:41
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MohammadAGsomeone compile it for me, I have to go to bed :P00:41
DocScrutinizer'nite moh00:41
MohammadAGnight o/00:41
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DocScrutinizerfcrochik: there's a bug ticket for that (4 decimals of lon/lat) - I'd guess opened by SpeedEvil00:43
DocScrutinizerwas related to geotagging the camera photos though00:44
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DocScrutinizertzz, why do you leave ZNC, moh?00:45
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ioanhi. any good google voice applications?00:45
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: ah... hopefully this is not the only bug....because even with only 4 decimal places my gps jumps like crazy when I am stationary00:46
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DocScrutinizerhmm, should stabilze after a few minutes though00:47
DocScrutinizerask SpeedEvil - he's the god of GPS00:47
pupnikthanks DocScrutinizer - thanks for the info again!  - exactly what i was curious about :)00:48
DocScrutinizeryw pupnik00:48
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pupnikwell.  conditions might get more dynamic sooner than we like00:49
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DocScrutinizerwhich conditions?00:50
SpeedEvilfcrochik: See
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SpeedEvilfcrochik: 50% of points - in good conditions - fall within a 2.2m radius circle.00:51
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SpeedEvilfcrochik: 99.8% of points fall within a 60m radius.00:51
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fcrochikSpeedEvil: very cool info... so it must be an issue with qt mobility... I have to test outside my house... inside my position changes every second and by maybe some 20m or so....00:53
fcrochikSpeedEvil: and I am on the second floor right by the window on a house ...00:54
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achipafcrochik: precision != accuracy00:54
achipathose two cna be very distinct in the gps realm00:54
infobotachipa meant: those two can be very distinct in the gps realm00:54
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fcrochikSpeedEvil: one question (now that you know that you are the GOD of the GPS): qt mobility allows you to set the interval to get positions reported.... any guidance here? once a second? 10 times a second?00:55
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fcrochikSpeedEvil: I that I know you are ... :)00:58
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fcrochikI guess this is the perfect opportunity for me to announce my new app (just uploaded to extras-devel): a native front end for google maps...01:00
CreamyGanyone know how to change the configure command in ESbox or maybe eclipse?01:00
CreamyGhmmm that sounds too good to be true man01:00
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fcrochiksome screenshots:
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SpeedEvilfcrochik: The raw hardware does not return data more than once a second typically as I understand it.01:23
SpeedEvilfcrochik: Also - some windows are GPS-opaque vunctionally01:23
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fcrochikSpeedEvil: thanks for the info... my application plots the position regardless of the street so it is quite interesting to see google maps x gps I was using it to guide a car or something I would cut many corners literally01:27
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mcunixcome si imposta la passwd di root da shell dell' N90001:29
nox-i dont speak spanish (or whatever that is), but the default root pw is empty01:30
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nox-just need to install the rootsh package...01:30
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achipamcunix: sudo gainroot01:33
achipamcunix: passwd01:33
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achipa(in case you were asking how to set the root pass)01:33
achipaif not... oops01:33
SpeedEvil may also be interesting to you fcrochik01:34
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mcunixachipa: enable RD mode if you want to break your device01:35
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fcrochikSpeedEvil: thank you... if you decide to try my app let me know what you think... it seems that this is one of your areas of expertise...01:37
achipamcunix: aha, install rootsh from extras first, no root hanky-panky until you do that01:38
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CreamyGcool i'm installing your gps thing fcrochik01:42
fcrochikCreamyG: let me know how you like it01:43
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ioanany IPv6 gurus here?01:44
ioangoogle voice plugin works fine if I connect to the internet over wifi. If I connect using T-Mobile's IPv6, the browser works, the email works... but google voice plugin can't connect.01:46
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luke-jr_ShadowJK: DocScrutinizer: why do I need to see that?01:53
luke-jr_more like, did that guy see my work, or is he trying to repeat it?01:53
DocScrutinizersorry for disturbing you01:54
DocScrutinizerwon't happen again01:54
CreamyGfcrochik, i got it installed but i had to manually install the libqt-location first01:55
CreamyGalso it went to "other" instead of location/navigation in the menu01:56
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luke-jr_DocScrutinizer: …01:56
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fcrochikCreamyG: did you install using the application manager or fap? it should handle the dependencies... I guessed the name of the group... probably it is not location :)01:57
CreamyGfcrochik: app manager, it listed it as a problem and said it won't install on the details tab, although i didn't actually try clicking install to verify it doesn't auto install.01:58
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nox-ioan, read up on net neutrality...  (i.e. tmobile just wanst to charge you for voice calls)01:59
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ioannox-: the problem seems to be in the google voice plugin. I can do whatever I want in the browser on google voice website with IPv6, and the plugin just connects to same website...02:15
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wmaronemediabox seriously needs to be profiled02:30
DocScrutinizer51meh, google voice. I'd probably rather use skype, and I hate skype02:30
wmaroneits excess cpu usage killed my battery ~4 hours earlier than it would otherwise have02:31
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DocScrutinizer51skype? or GV?02:33
DocScrutinizer51though both prolly do02:33
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wmaroneno no, mediabox02:34
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wmaronethough I would not expect reasonable battery life on either of those :)02:35
SpeedEvilIt's probably not. The CPU really has a tough time draining the battery in 4h02:35
SpeedEvilthe radios - easily02:35
wmaronenono, my battery gave up ~4 hours -earlier-02:35
wmaroneit's been going since 7 AM02:35
DocScrutinizer51especially GSM02:35
nox-3g needs less power than gsm?02:36
SpeedEvilno, more.02:36
nox-ah ok :)02:36
SpeedEviltwice to three times in some cases02:36
DocScrutinizer51err, 3G *is* a flavour of GSM02:36
nox-hah ok02:36
DocScrutinizer51(not really though)02:36
SpeedEvilI am at the moment streaming 700kbps video over 3g02:36
DocScrutinizer51damn, missing my booksmarks from laptop. no link to the dsl speedtest page here in my pub02:38
SpeedEvilDischarging at 100mA with the screen off.02:38
SpeedEviland connected to USB02:38
DocScrutinizer51wut video with screen off?02:38
DocScrutinizer51also 700kb over UMTS with 100mA02:39
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* DocScrutinizer51 cursing mce02:39
DocScrutinizer51~kill mce02:40
* infobot shoots a inverse anti-photon gun at mce02:40
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DocScrutinizer51kbd backlight is random02:40
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DocScrutinizer51no way to fic that shit02:40
rtylerany of you chaps find that modest chews up a godawful amount of CPU?02:41
* rtyler wishes there were a better mail client in maemo502:41
DocScrutinizer51modwst??? naaw02:41
SpeedEvilI uninstalled modest.02:42
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rtylerSpeedEvil: what do you use?02:42
rtylerNO MAIL! OH NOES!02:42
rtyler :D02:42
SpeedEvilrtyler: I rarely use mail.02:43
SpeedEvilrtyler: on the phone02:43
DocScrutinizer51yeah, nonsense02:43
rtylerDocScrutinizer51: does Claws integrate well like maemo5 does?02:43
DocScrutinizer51prolly not02:43
DocScrutinizer51never gave it a try02:44
SpeedEvilrtyler: I tend to find myself using my phone for several things. Either watching TV while washing up, listening to podcasts, or occasional IRC in the garden, and photos.02:44
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SpeedEvilComparatively little browsing or email.02:44
rtylerheh, I use it primarily for both of those :P02:44
SpeedEvilLargely BBC content actually.02:45
SpeedEvilSky at night ++ get_iplayer++02:45
DocScrutinizer51browsing yes. email? noooo way02:45
ioanthe special 3G connection I have for IPv6 seems like doesn't use any battery :-) I mean if I don't use the phone, the battery lasts for 2-3 days with the connection ON all the time02:45
DocScrutinizer51email's not twitter02:45
SpeedEvilioan: data connectiuon 'up' - uses almost no power.02:46
rtylerDocScrutinizer51: what does that have to do with anything? i)I02:46
SpeedEvilI guess meaning it doesn't need checked very often.02:47
DocScrutinizer51reading email means I either regret doing that or I want to answer. Answer appropritely on N900? c'mon02:47
ioanSpeedEvil, tell me master, how do I make the google voice plugin work on ipv6?02:47
rtylerDocScrutinizer51: email is also used by lots of folks for say, production alerting/notifications02:48
rtylerI can fire off pretty good replies on the n900 in most cases02:48
SpeedEvilioan: I have no clue, I've never tried the google voice plugin, I was under the imnpression it required a third party SIP service.02:48
rtylerit's just that I can't do much while using modest <_<02:48
nox-SpeedEvil, iplayer-- sky at night used to be on the web for everyone and now its geoblocked... :(02:48
DocScrutinizer51rtyler: granted02:48
rtylermediaplayer skips terribly when using mail02:48
* rtyler grumbles02:48
SpeedEvilnox-: well - yes.02:48
DocScrutinizer51not me though02:48
ioanSpeedEvil: I use it just to send receive sms... so it doesn't need anything except the plugin. I didn't try the voice part tho02:49
SpeedEvilioan: ah02:49
SpeedEvilisn't the plugin x86 only?02:49
SpeedEvilOR am I misunderstanding.02:50
DocScrutinizer51I use sms to notify me about urgen things02:50
DocScrutinizer51much better than mail02:50
DocScrutinizer51I even get sms notifications on new mail :-P02:51
nox-SpeedEvil, heh nice :)02:51
luke-jr_ioan: any idea if IPv6 works with prepaid?02:52
DocScrutinizer51err read Ur Q02:53
SpeedEvilluke-jr: it's gonna vary with provider I imagine.02:53
SpeedEvilluke-jr: There is relatively little need.02:53
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SpeedEvilluke-jr: as they can NAT the ipv4 without problems.02:54
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DocScrutinizer51how's payg related *technically* to ipv6??02:54
SpeedEvilIt's not.02:55
luke-jr_SpeedEvil: I'm talking specific to T-Mo02:55
SpeedEvilI haven't tried ipv4 with t-mo02:55
luke-jr_which doesn't have PAYG data02:55
SpeedEvil(though I'm on t-mo uk)02:55
luke-jr_T-Mo IPv6 is some kind of beta02:55
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SpeedEvilAnd I'm streaming video on my PAYG data02:55
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luke-jr_well, technically PAYG has data for ONLY their Sidekick (Hiptop) phones02:56
luke-jr_which I presume don't support IPv602:56
luke-jr_so the question is, do I want to risk losing *all* connectivity by admitting I use something else?02:56
* SpeedEvil is glad he doesn't live in the USA.02:56
DocScrutinizer51rule of thumb: if you use same APN, you'll use same tech service02:57
DocScrutinizer51billing is a different thing02:57
luke-jr_DocScrutinizer51: but if they want to, they can force me to another APN02:57
DocScrutinizer51yes, anytime02:58
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luke-jr_T-Mo has been known to kick people off the Hiptop plan if they find out you don't have one02:58
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luke-jr_since Hiptop doesn't support IPv6, requesting the beta would be admitting to using a different device02:58
luke-jr_ergo, I could get cut off02:59
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DocScrutinizer51for 25€ i get 5GB/mo here plus a bonus on top worth 60min voice or 120 sms. more than enough (we don't pay for inbound call minutes here)03:02
luke-jr_DocScrutinizer51: they also only allow Unlimited Data subscribers on the IPv6 beta03:03
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DocScrutinizer51I have a bonus account worth 10h of voice now03:05
DocScrutinizer51and every 5 months my regular account has enough to pay the 30 bucks03:06
dolpshould QMessageManager's countMessages() count all messages in el-v1.db? or how does it work?03:12
DocScrutinizer51tbh I give no   f..k on ipv6 _ they should just offer a decent way to config the NAT03:13
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DocScrutinizer51I'm just happy with NAT keeping internet noise away from my GSM radio03:15
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infobotSince Thu Sep 16 09:58:38 2010, there have been 210 modifications, 2561 questions, 0 dunnos, 0 morons and 1286 commands.  I have been awake for 26d 14h 28m 37s this session, and currently reference 117348 factoids.  I'm using about 38392 kB of memory. With 0 active forks. Process time user/system 8858.66/215.38 child 0/003:27
* DocScrutinizer51 stares on 0 morons 0 dunnos in disbelief03:28
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BillynkidQuick query anyone here used their n900 with ubuntu one music?03:39
BillynkidHaving a slight problem not sure if it should be filed as a bug under maemo or ubuntu03:40
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BillynkidThe problem is tracks downloaded have no mp3 extension as such they do not appear as track under media player or mediabox?03:41
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BillynkidSo is that Ubuntu or maemo?03:43
DocScrutinizermissing extension probably confuses tracker - not that it could get worse with tracker anyway03:43
DocScrutinizerthat's errr... PLEASE KILL TRACKER WITH FIRE03:43
BillynkidI'd say maemo as rythmbox the app syncing the mp3 with the N900 recongnizes them03:44
DocScrutinizerand the guy who decided on this system architecture as well03:44
BillynkidCan't it just read the header and work it out the way linux does?03:45
DocScrutinizerthere's a mediaplayer plugin to play arbitrary files or even directories (yes, dirs as in unix mkdir)03:45
BillynkidExtensions r so winblows03:45
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DocScrutinizertracker concept was born with a gashead03:46
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BillynkidDoes plugin have a name?03:47
BillynkidDoes it mean mediaplayer/box sees the files?03:48
DocScrutinizerthis mediaplayer plugin is somewhat flawed as it plays directories in no particular sequence (or probably the native inode sequence)03:48
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DocScrutinizerfor the name you have to wait until HAM finishes startup :-D03:48
BillynkidYeah noticed that too.03:48
DocScrutinizerhildap app manager03:49
DocScrutinizerhildon wtf03:49
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DocScrutinizerahh, btw: check out mussorgsky - a nice tool03:50
DocScrutinizerfsck, I deinstalled that plugin :-/03:50
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GermanME <- does anybody know if this package should include airodump-ng too or where i could get airodump seperately for os2007he?03:52
DocScrutinizerairodump is included03:53
DocScrutinizerdunno if it works (except for chan #6)03:53
DocScrutinizerooh, OS2007 - sorry NFC03:53
GermanMEjust saw somebody using it on youtube running on the n770, so there seems to be some hope ^^03:54
GermanMEcouldn't get airodump-ng to start yet, it keeps saying it doesn't know the command, but it's good to know it actually should be in the package, thx so far03:55
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DocScrutinizermafw-grilo-source plugin for fremantle media player03:58
DocScrutinizerin mediaplayer root window (musc, video, radio, random) open menu, click 'plugins'03:59
DocScrutinizerBillynkid: ^^^04:00
DocScrutinizerthere's "filesystem" allowing to playback arbitrary files and whole folders. It has quirks but is the *Right Thing*04:01
DocScrutinizernever tested "Jamendo", "SHOUTcast", and "Youtube" plugins04:02
DocScrutinizerbut actually this pkg made my day(s)04:03
DocScrutinizer~lart tracker04:03
* infobot takes a rusty axe and swings it violently, taking tracker's head off04:03
DocScrutinizer~burn tracker04:03
* infobot pours gasoline all over tracker, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze04:03
DocScrutinizerdamn I'm not such an idiot I can't manage to copy my mp3 to the right folder04:04
DocScrutinizerand thumbnailer is even MUCH worse, not only showing your p0rn pics from last hidden drawer in photoviewer, but also all irreco buttons and other shit you never knew you even have04:05
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DocScrutinizer"hello landlord, look here! that's what you need to fix in my flat. slide right or left to get to next photo" ... "OOOPS, that's a picture of my appendix surgery"  *W*T*F*!!04:07
DocScrutinizerwell done NOKIA! really! exorbitantly well done, your MMI designers are just gods of wisdom04:09
DocScrutinizerheh, I'm doing usability resaerch, and you can hire me!04:10
luke-jr_if you have pr0n pics, you deserve to be exposed >☺04:12
DocScrutinizerbut meh, with meego everything will be cheesecake and singing birds... nah wait - tracker and thumbnailer becoming mandatory parts of meego?04:12
DocScrutinizerluke-jr_: interested in my abscess I documented for my doctor?04:13
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DocScrutinizerI'll send it to you... ooopsie once more, clicked one pos off and sent goatse04:14
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DocScrutinizerhonestly, tracker/thumbnailer is the most retarded concept I ever got to know of04:17
luke-jr_it was retarded when KDE did it too04:17
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luke-jr_they called it Nepomuk04:17
luke-jr_everyone hates it04:17
DocScrutinizerdoesn't make it better?04:18
DocScrutinizerthough on KDE you got proper filemanagers and stuff, to stick with directory tree for arbitrary file types04:18
DocScrutinizermaemo/meego is *relying* on this shit, and doesn't even offer a proper alternative. Not even community based plugin pkgs can completely fix the basic issue, due to "we want to keep it closed source - to DIFFERENTIATE" MUHAHAHAHAHAAaaa04:20
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DocScrutinizerand on meego when asking "is this really a good concept" you get flames and kicks and "you're free to send patches *after* we implemented the BS as defacto standard"04:23
DocScrutinizer~debian meego04:24
* infobot tells meego to RTFM!!!! GAH!!! HELL FIRE AND BRIMSTONE!!!! BURN!!! DIE!!! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!04:24
nox-.oO(i guess thats the same kind of thinking that got us x startup with black screen, no cursor and ctrl-alt-backspace disabled...)04:25
DocScrutinizernox-: sorry you lost me, please elaborate04:26
DocScrutinizerwhat's 'that's'04:26
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nox-this `userfriendliness' stuff04:26
DocScrutinizerooh, the "tracker is for noobs and winzombies" thinking?04:27
nox-for ppl that dont know what a dir is or that cant read urls...04:29
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DocScrutinizerjust like .documents, like "sudo gainroot", like VFAT (well, I'm not that harsh on this particular one)...04:29
DocScrutinizerlike "no access to ~/*"... in HFM04:30
DocScrutinizernor anywhere lese in system04:30
nox-and noone ever bothered to test things like less or mutt in their xterm :)04:30
DocScrutinizergrant me one hour with the usability guys in a closed room, please04:30
DocScrutinizerduh, what's less??? we got messybox04:31
DocScrutinizerand we consider to remove xterm from stock image04:31
nox-..and replace it with putty or what? :)04:32
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DocScrutinizeryou'll get security framework instead, then you'll never ever again need root or console or cmdline or...04:32
nox-err well _then_ i might just as well get an iphone and jailbreak it :(04:33
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DocScrutinizerWTF has this device -what's it called ? N900, RX-51 - a hw keyboard? that's not what we at Nokia products thought it should look like04:33
nox-(i mean i thought the point of maemo was that you _dont_ need to `jailbreak' it to make it useful...)04:34
DocScrutinizerthe point in maemo never has been geek compatibility. It's always been about getting a *free* (as in beer) OS - at least for some parts of Nokia04:36
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openstandardsHi all i'm having trouble with sfdisk i run the command and my n900 replies with command not found04:37
DocScrutinizerthere's been a few advocats of FOSS (especially Quin I guess), but the management that owns the money wasn't interested in FOSS ever04:37
* luke-jr_ hasn't really seen Quim advocate for free software.04:38
openstandardsgrrr ok my bad you need to sudo to use it04:38
luke-jr_just make excuses for things being closed04:38
DocScrutinizerthey didn't even understand what community or FOSS means04:38
openstandardswhat are you lot talking about04:38
DocScrutinizeropenstandards: use 'root' (or sudo gainroot)!04:39
openstandardsDocScrutinizer, yeah thanks i figured it out04:40
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DocScrutinizeropenstandards: cfdisk is more userfriendly than sfdisk, I'd think04:40
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openstandardsto be fair thou alot of nokia's work has ended up in upstream in distros, shame that maemo died out to quick04:41
luke-jr_DocScrutinizer: IIRC cfdisk isn't ideal for SSD?04:41
luke-jr_openstandards: really? what?04:41
DocScrutinizerluke-jr_: maybe you got a point there04:41
DocScrutinizersfdisk is rather powerful it seems04:41
openstandardswell wasn't telepathy backed highly by nokia and they did hire a lot to work on gstreamer04:42
luke-jr_telepathy quite frankly seems broken by design04:42
DocScrutinizerand gstreamer has been around for years04:43
luke-jr_in any case, anything depending on glib is wasted effort04:43
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DocScrutinizerohnoes, me seems has to leave now -it's getting political once more04:43
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openstandardsDocScrutinizer, yeah thats true but theres no denying that the n700 etc... has helped the desktop...04:44
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openstandardswell nokia has pushed their tablets for years, alot of that stuff has ended up in the n90004:45
DocScrutinizeryeah, if you are talking about friggin PulseAudio breaking my carefully optimized 10 year old ALSA config for desktop, then yes, you're right04:45
luke-jr_openstandards: the GTK desktop sucks, as it always has :P04:45
luke-jr_DocScrutinizer: hahaha04:45
* openstandards likes gnome :)04:45
luke-jr_btw, why the *#(%&#( is T-Mobile sending me a SIM card via UPS?04:47
DocScrutinizernaw, starts wit g*, like gconftool and gstreamer, and g***04:47
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luke-jr_is there some reason they can't just stick it in an envelope?04:47
nox-luke-jr_, maybe they want a tracking #?04:47
openstandardsluke-jr, is it costing you any extra? :D04:47
luke-jr_openstandards: no, but probably slower04:47
DocScrutinizernox-: *L*O*L*04:48
luke-jr_Friday to Wednesday04:48
luke-jr_pretty sure an envelope would have got here Sat or Mon04:48
openstandardsthe sip stack for the n900 seems ok must admit04:49
DocScrutinizernox-: BTW this diagram is incorrect (or call it BS)04:49
DocScrutinizerwhere's OSS today?04:49
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luke-jr_openstandards: the SIP stack predates 770 too04:49
DocScrutinizerALSA soundcard drivers are native, not OSS04:49
nox-well libasound _can_ go via oss too if you reall need it04:50
nox-(like we sometimes do on freebsd :)04:50
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DocScrutinizeryes, everything *can* use OSS, but that diagram is as wrong as it gets, regarding what's a standard linux audio system nowadays04:52
DocScrutinizereven 3 years back04:52
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DocScrutinizereven twinkle has OSS audio device support, though it's kinda deprecated (like OSS at large since, err 2002?) and probably not working anymore04:56
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DocScrutinizernow PA is raiding the scene and boldly claiming it's going to fix all the flaws in ALSA that actually are not in ALSA but in PA04:58
nox-chrome for example needs alsa04:58
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DocScrutinizerexample? ALSA dmix, PA dudes say it never worked - for me it works flawlessly and like a charm, since I fixed my config, but !!PA!! is eating 30% cpu by mixing idle streams. So what's the broken mixer of the both?05:00
nox-i wonder if its about `userfriendliness' again...05:00
DocScrutinizergranted, ALSA config is a nightmare, mainly due to missing or abyssmal docs. But is that a good reason to discard the code/software instead of fixing the docs?05:02
DocScrutinizerand, is PA doc any better?05:02
nox-yeah im not disagreeing with you...05:02
openstandardswhy do some bother with oss?05:03
DocScrutinizerwho does?05:03
nox-the oss like we have on freebsd has in-kernel mixing and per-app volume control for example...05:03
DocScrutinizerOSS is actually officially deprecated, since years05:03
nox-on linux, yes05:04
openstandardswhen i used arch alot did05:04
openstandardsthat was about two years ago tho05:05
nox-so freebsd users neither need an .asoundrc nor any `sound daemons' usually05:05
DocScrutinizernox-: (per app vol, mixing) great - seems it's on par with ALSA, almost at least :-D05:05
nox-just sayin' :)05:05
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DocScrutinizeryeah, another evidence you can live (much better) *without* that PA abomination05:06
DocScrutinizerwell, night peeps05:07
nox-sweet dreams... :)05:08
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johnxhallo all :D05:12
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b-man`hey johnx :)05:59
johnxhey :D05:59
johnxwhat are you hacking on these days?05:59
b-man`trying to get meego's sgx stuff running on debian on my N900 :)05:59
johnxfun fun :)06:00
b-man`btw i turned 18 yesterday :)06:00
b-man`this week is full of signing paperwork lol06:00
b-man`so what have you been up to? :)06:01
johnxhacking on meego on pandora a bit06:02
johnxright now I'm putting up my own OBS though06:02
b-man`awesome - how well is it running?06:02
johnxIt runs ok with the pandora 2.6.27 (28?) kernel, but there are font rendering issues06:03
johnxmeego really targets 2.6.35, so I'm trying to get the N900 SGX kernel drivers patched in06:04
johnxit's a bit out of my depth, so the progress is pretty slow :|06:05
b-man`i've been having trouble getting udev to recognise the internal and external memory from within debian on 2.6.28/2.6.3506:06
b-man`plus bme is having issues06:06
johnxwhich debian? squeeze? unstable?06:06
johnxis N900 using HAL? is squeeze still using HAL, or did it finishing transitioning away?06:07
johnxs/N900/N900 Maemo 5/06:08
infobotjohnx meant: is N900 Maemo 5 using HAL? is squeeze still using HAL, or did it finishing transitioning away?06:08
b-man`it's using upower/policykit06:08
b-man`same stuff as meego06:08
johnxah, I meant for the memory cards06:08
b-man`no hal06:08
johnxwell, that's lucky at least :)06:08
b-man`i'm thinking of using upower/policykit from meego instead to see if it fixes the problem06:09
b-man`and if that does not work, i'll have to live with hal :)06:10
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johnxeveryone's dropping it though. doesn't really seem like a good long term option ...06:10
b-man`which is why i'm trying my best to avoid it ;)06:11
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johnxwhat are you using for a desktop?06:13
b-man`Toshiba Satellite06:13
johnxI mean in debian :P06:13
b-man`oh lol, gnome :)06:13
johnxgah. isn't that like painful?06:13
b-man`i'm thinking of adopting meego's ux though06:13
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johnxwhy not just come over to meego?06:14
b-man`dunno, i just feel compelled to do things myself :)06:14
johnxfair enough06:14
johnxthat's how you learn after all :)06:15
b-man`indeed :)06:15
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b-man`anyways, g2g - need to go to bed as i have school tomorrow, c ya johnx06:16
johnxenjoy :)06:16
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e1ioanepage, are you around here?06:36
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andrewfblackAnyone ever able to get internet connect from another phone on N900?07:03
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ludensandrewfblack: you mean using mobile-hotspot?07:17
ludensnever tried it07:17
ludensbut should work07:17
ludensthat or bluetooth07:18
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andrewfblackludens: was trying the other way to get internet to my N90007:20
andrewfblackN900 wont connect to work network and no cell service on it so wanted to connect to my blackberry07:20
ludensoh i see07:21
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ludensno idea but shouldnt it be able to act as a bluetooth modem07:22
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JaizukeI dont think the blackberry method would work, blackberry is too secure you can't even tether via bluetooth to alaptop07:28
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openstandardsshould the n900 report a sd card being corrupt if its been formatted to ext308:35
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openstandardsok, cheers i was thinking i had done something wrong08:36
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openstandardsthe linux support for it is half baked :(08:37
openstandardsi hope meego is better08:37
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wmaronelinux support for what?08:40
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luke-jr_wmarone: N900 I would assume08:45
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jpinx-eeepcwhere does one go to find out what repo has a package - in my case I am looking for screen08:48
openstandardswell for a while i've been thinking the sd card is messed up just because the gui tells me it can't read it when it can basically08:49
RobbieThe1stjpinix: its in the tools repo. Just a second08:49
noodles900RobbieThe1st: thanks - that's the same link as you gave me yesterday, but it does not specify the line to add to my sources list08:50
RobbieThe1stYes it does.08:51
RobbieThe1stUnder "Installation"08:51
luke-jr_openstandards: at least it didn't try to format it for you ;)08:51
openstandardsluke-jr, too true :)08:51
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noodles900RobbieThe1st: thanks - forgive my incompetence - I am used to just working the cli and adding  a simple line to a sources.list ;)08:54
RobbieThe1stIt -says- the deb line08:55
RobbieThe1stquote: If you prefer to edit configuration files yourself instead of using the Application manager, add these lines to your /etc/apt/sources.list08:56
RobbieThe1st# fremantle tools08:56
RobbieThe1stdeb fremantle/tools free non-free08:56
noodles900RobbieThe1st: yep - got that thenks08:56
noodles900it's done, installed and broken :/08:57
RobbieThe1stWhat's broken?08:57
noodles900Setting up screen (4.0.3-0.3osso4+0m5) ...08:58
noodles900/var/lib/dpkg/info/screen.postinst: line 23: /usr/sbin/add-shell: not found08:58
noodles900install-info(/usr/share/info/ no file /usr/share/info/dir, retrieving backup file /var/backups/infodir.bak.08:58
RobbieThe1stwell, does typing "screen" produce an error?08:58
noodles900the applicaion appears to work, but what's the file-not-found and using backups all about?08:59
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RobbieThe1stIgnore it. Most likely whoever made the package didn't do it quite right, or forgot something09:00
RobbieThe1stif it -runs-, you can safely ignore most errors09:00
jpinx-eeepceeek :/09:01
jpinx-eeepcbut ok -- thanks09:01
RobbieThe1stYea, NP09:01
* jpinx-eeepc is used to debain stable -- no errors ;)09:01
luke-jr_Debian is a real distro :P09:01
* RobbieThe1st is running Debian Squeeze x64 currently09:02
luke-jr_there is no such thing as x64 >_<09:02
* jpinx-eeepc is running squeeze in a chroot in the n90009:02
RobbieThe1stx86_64 then, close enough09:02
* luke-jr_ is running Gentoo stable on N90009:02
jpinx-eeepcpoor luke-jr_  :(09:03
jpinx-eeepc"Genttoo" and "stable" can not appear in the same sentence without quotes ;)09:03
* jpinx-eeepc can't decide whether to learn more meaemo or make maemo more debian ;)09:04
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RobbieThe1stWell, erm, aside from the hildon-desktop and other packages, I'm not sure whats's different..?09:05
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RobbieThe1stSure, BusyBox is the default shell, but that's more a matter of space-saving, and bash is availaible09:05
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* noodles900ch has busybox and lxde on the eeepc09:06
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noodles900Hmm - let's see if I can break screen09:10
Ljrn900try  a fork09:10
RobbieThe1stscreen -dm apptolaunch09:11
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* Ljrn900 ponders if anyone has forkbombed N90009:11
noodles900RobbieThe1st: this is me in screen in maemo09:12
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noodles900chand this is me chrooted into squeeze, in a screen09:12
noodles900has anyone got bitlbee to install on maemo?09:13
RobbieThe1stMeh, I haven't made a chroot myself; not sure what it would gain me09:13
RobbieThe1stI haven't really run into things that would run under that that won't directly that I could actually use09:13
noodles900RobbieThe1st: to be honest the chroot was a quick way for me to ge working on the n900 while I learned a bit abou8t maemo09:13
RobbieThe1stFair enough09:14
noodles900Hmm -- no bitlbee in the repos09:14
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RobbieThe1stI dunno... I wonder if Runescape would run any better on Debian-OpenJDK via a chroot than it does on the current version of IcedTea6 for Maemo...09:15
noodles900RobbieThe1st: probably ;)09:16
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RobbieThe1stWouldn't it run worse or something, being as its an extra level of OS between the processor and the app..?09:17
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jpinx-eeepcthe chroot really has no overhead to speak of09:19
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jpinx-eeepcgoddam -- getting lost amongst screens within screens :(09:20
RobbieThe1stscreen -r 's handy09:20
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noodles900what's -r do?09:23
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TermanaDesirejpinx-eeepc: except having to load up the extra libc etc. into memory09:24
RobbieThe1stAnd if there's more than one, it'll list them09:24
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jpinx-eeepcRobbieThe1st: screen session in the eeepc, contains ssh to n900 screen session.09:25
jpinx-eeepcalso contains ssh into screen session in chroot in n900 ;)09:25
jpinx-eeepcwhich - just for fun - has ssh tunnelling into a remote box for http proxy09:26
lcukmorning #maemo09:27
jpinx-eeepcRobbieThe1st: I have to cope with some serious "filtering" byt ISP's here ;)09:28
RobbieThe1stIt's more the several-layers of screens between it and you09:29
RobbieThe1stBut yea, I use one of those ssh tunnels myself; I love it.09:29
jpinx-eeepcyea - well - the connection is like a dialup anyway - so speed is not an issue09:29
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jpinx-eeepcand again - I set it up in the chroot for ease, but now I am getting more familiar with maemo, that will go away09:30
RobbieThe1stWell, erm, it shouldn't matter - syntax is the same09:32
RobbieThe1stYou will need the ssh-client package though09:32
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RobbieThe1stAnyone famialiar with PyQT?09:37
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JZAhi I need help09:52
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JZAhow can I flash my maemo to the latest firmware I am using Mandriva 201009:52
RobbieThe1stDownload the flasher utility09:52
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JZAand I get a message saying Unable to enumerate USB devices!09:53
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RobbieThe1strun as root09:53
JZA I did09:53
RobbieThe1stPaste the full message here?09:54
JZA./flasher-3.5 -F ../RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.19-1.002_PR_COMBINED_002_ARM.bin -f -R09:54
JZAthats the command I put09:54
jpinx-eeepcmaybe as root and not sudo?09:54
RobbieThe1stWhich is correct09:54
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psycho_oreossudo should be able to do it as well, fakeroot probably can't09:54
RobbieThe1stWhat's the error message09:54
jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: depends on his  sudo config maybe09:54
JZARobbieThe1st: the full message is huge, let me pastebin it09:55
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psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, probably but *shrugs* I usually do sudo -i anyway09:55
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RobbieThe1stwhat's sudo -i do?09:55
psycho_oreosRobbieThe1st, gives you root shell09:56
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RobbieThe1stI mean vs regular sudo09:56
jpinx-eeepcwhy not use su?09:56
psycho_oreossudo -i gives you bash prompt provided that you have yourself on sudoers list with rights to execute bin/bash or whatever and using your own password09:57
psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, afaik that requires root password not user's password09:57
JZARobbieThe1st: so?09:58
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RobbieThe1stUm, try "rmmod cdc_phonet"09:58
RobbieThe1stand rmmod phonet09:58
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RobbieThe1stOtherwise, a Ubuntu LiveCD may be a good idea09:59
JZArmmod cdc_phonet and then try the same?10:00
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JZARobbieThe1st: why will it work on ubuntu but not on the rest?10:03
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RobbieThe1stIt should work on most10:03
RobbieThe1stI just -know- it works on Ubuntu and Debian10:03
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jpinx-eeepcwhen I run apt-get -f install . it tries to remove almost everything :(  I'm trying to resolve dependencies for bitlbee10:06
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jpinx-eeepcRobbieThe1st: any clues?
RobbieThe1stDo you, by chance, have a Debian repo in there?10:11
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jpinx-eeepcnope - here's the attempted install of bitlbee ..
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RobbieThe1stDo an apt-get update10:13
RobbieThe1stIt looks like one of the dependancies conflicts with an important package10:13
jpinx-eeepcsources --
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jpinx-eeepcyea - I did the update after adding the tools repos you gave me about ten minutes ago10:14
RobbieThe1stI'd post on the Maemo forums; I've never seen anything like it aside from a major conflict10:14
jpinx-eeepcoki doki10:14
jpinx-eeepcI'll need to join the forums :(10:15
RobbieThe1stNot a big deal10:15
timeless_mbp1hey Stskeeps, et al, i've been asked (by TI) to note that the Flash 10.1 arm thing is really not for end users10:15
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jpinx-eeepcand go back to using bitlbee in the chroot ;)10:15
Stskeepstimeless_mbp1: quite aware10:15
RobbieThe1stWhy not, specifically?10:15
timeless_mbpspecifically it's really targeted at vendors10:15
timeless_mbpto show off features and to help them look at modern chips from TI10:16
RobbieThe1stThat's silly10:16
timeless_mbpat least, that's the short of it, i got a sizable email on the subject10:16
timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st: um10:16
timeless_mbpimagine you're a hardware vendor10:16
timeless_mbpyou're in the business of selling NEW hardware to NEW or existing customers10:16
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: my goal was to evaluate it on top of meego arm so that was good enough for me10:16
timeless_mbpyou don't have any dealings with end users10:16
timeless_mbpyou don't have support contracts to end users10:17
timeless_mbpStskeeps: indeed10:17
timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st: each trial you offer incurs some overhead10:17
RobbieThe1stNah, what I mean is that Adobe already has this. They should be giving copies out also. Either that, or providing this to all TI-based devices10:17
timeless_mbpthere are support costs10:17
Stskeepsi noted the performance in fennec-qt was horrid under meego and hence it was worth seeing if it was a meego-fennec problem or if it worked under microb10:17
timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st: well, that's more or less the point10:17
timeless_mbpend users should be getting flash10.1 from either adobe or nokia (their vendor)10:18
timeless_mbpnot from TI10:18
Stskeepsso, basically, our fennec-qt sucks on meego ;)10:18
timeless_mbpTI's release isn't targeted at end users10:18
timeless_mbpit's targeted at companies like Nokia10:18
RobbieThe1stSo the real question is: How come TI has it, yet everyone else doesn't? Why isn't Nokia or Adobe providing it yet(well, I know the reason: Money)?10:19
timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st: roughly, instead of you trying to get a trial from TI, you should complain to Nokia (/Nokia Care) about the fact that it's missing10:19
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timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st:  that isn't the reason10:19
timeless_mbpAdobe _probably_ isn't releasing it yet because it probably isn't finished/good enough for whatever their standard is10:19
timeless_mbp(or perhaps because they have a stupid entangling license agreement w/ another company)10:19
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timeless_mbpNokia _probably_ isn't releasing it yet for probably similar reasons, or perhaps because someone decided to sit on it, or that there was some other schedule for it, or not to do it, or because someone's being annoying10:20
RobbieThe1stEither way, it means that -- realisticly -- we won't get it for months, unless someone breaks their agreement and it gets leaked10:20
timeless_mbpI can't speak for Nokia10:20
timeless_mbpeven if i actually do know something about nokia's plans10:20
timeless_mbp(and i try very hard not to know *anything* about Nokia's plans)10:20
RobbieThe1stCan you go ask them about it, or bring up our wishes as users?10:21
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timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st: yeah, well10:21
RobbieThe1stThat sucks10:21
timeless_mbppointless, be a proper user and complain to Nokia Care directly10:21
timeless_mbpi've said this before and i'll say it again:10:21
timeless_mbpNokia Care like all other support systems works on a bucket based system10:21
timeless_mbpeach complaint is sorted into a bucket10:21
timeless_mbpif the bucket overflows, someone gets pestered about it10:22
timeless_mbpyour goal as an annoyed customer is to manage to get your problem into an overflowing bucket10:22
timeless_mbpwe *do* get bothered by nokia care when an issue gets raised too often10:22
timeless_mbpbasically end users do have power here, but not as a silent majority10:22
RobbieThe1stDo you know any specific words/methods to make sure you get into the "release Flash 10.1" bucket?10:22
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RobbieThe1stI suppose I could go make a forum topic with the link and proper keywords; try to get the hundred+ people complaining about it into the right area10:23
timeless_mbpideally it'd be more like "My n900 can't visit site X, it says it requires Flash 10.1"10:24
timeless_mbppreferably X should be both relatively consistent and fairly major10:24
timeless_mbpif X is a hobbyist site, someone will figure out you're gaming and try to ignore you10:24
timeless_mbpfwiw, I don't offhand know of site X. so that's really your first step..10:24
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RobbieThe1stHm... I suppose it'd have to be either Youtube or - what's that other major streaming site?10:25
MyrttiRobbieThe1st: calling/emailing/visiting nokia care is always better than a forum topic10:25
MyrttiRobbieThe1st: that way they *have* to deal with you10:25
RobbieThe1stMyrtti: Forum topic's there before I was, and that's where people -are10:25
MyrttiI've said this so many times it's getting boring, but "other people's stupidity doesn't warrant yours"10:26
timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st:  afaik youtube "works"10:26
timeless_mbpgenerally speaking the major one is youporn10:26
timeless_mbpand i don't remember if that works10:26
RobbieThe1st... I'm trying to figure out the best way to solve the problem here10:27
Myrttivimeo / ustream / bambuser etc10:27
MyrttiI have no idea if those work either10:27
RobbieThe1stHm, what about veoh10:27
* timeless_mbp shrugs10:27
timeless_mbpit really isn't ok for me to *organize* this10:27
timeless_mbpsince that'd be me wagging the dog (my employer)10:28
* Myrtti is trying to ignore timeless_mbp very hard ;-)10:28
RobbieThe1stYea, I know. That's why I'm going to do it, I'm just asking you pointed questions about how to best do it10:28
timeless_mbpfwiw, what i'm saying here is nothing new, i've said it before (in this channel) on a number of occasions10:29
timeless_mbpbothering whichever company's support group (in numbers) is always right10:29
RobbieThe1stFirst time I've seen it though; Only found this channel a good week ago10:29
timeless_mbpremember that support tickets cost money, so someone is supposed to monitor them10:29
MyrttiI feel so old now ;_____;10:29
RobbieThe1stI thought they just ignored them entirely10:29
timeless_mbpthat'd be stupid10:30
Myrttisupport tickets are complaints from paying customers10:30
timeless_mbpyou get a really bad reaction if customers discover you're ignoring your support line10:30
Myrttiforum posts etc can be made by anyone10:30
timeless_mbpthey tell their friends not to buy the product because the support is bad10:30
RobbieThe1stWell, judging by the complaint posts I see in the forum...10:30
timeless_mbpno company, not even really dumb companies, can afford to do that10:30
Myrtti"forum posts etc can be made by anyone"10:30
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RobbieThe1stThat happened like six months ago. Everyone I've seen says that they think nokia's support is the worst ever. Sure, it may not be official, but its close enough10:31
Myrttiit's not totally unique or new trick to rig forum posts this or that way by a third party10:31
Myrttinot that I'm saying it's done on t.m.o, but it is possible10:32
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timeless_mbphey avs, did i mention i have a shiny chip-id card? :)10:32
timeless_mbp(i've already lost the pin, but..)10:32
RobbieThe1stWell, sure, but when you are talking about accounts that have been around for months, and have lots of other, on-topic posts... it would be hard to fake. So, while I agree its possible, I'm just saying that -realisticly-...10:32
timeless_mbpGoogle Chrome just offered me a beta via a popup notice from the w7 taskbar10:33
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timeless_mbp(no, google chrome was not running, the only things running are Windows Update [busy] and AV [weekly scan])10:34
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* RST38h yawns and stretches10:38
* timeless_mbp waits for windows update to finish10:38
RST38hSooo, what is new and exciting? PR1.3? N9? Meego Devices switching to Dalvik?10:38
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jpinx-eeepcRobbieThe1st: posted that on users maillist10:39
RobbieThe1stAlright I guess; I never watch mailinglists so...10:39
jpinx-eeepcwhere else should I try?10:39
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RobbieThe1stForum. talk.maemo.org10:40
RobbieThe1stMost questions get a response, that I've seen10:40
jpinx-eeepcAaach -- too many places -- ok10:40
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RobbieThe1stOh, that reminds me: timeless, do you know anything about the mtd_utils (specificly nandwrite etc.) that come with the N900?10:46
RobbieThe1stAlright then10:47
StskeepsRobbieThe1st: i thought they're not bundled10:47
RobbieThe1stReally? No nandwrite?10:47
timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st: i think when i need stuff like that i go to the internal who owns it and ask them to fix10:47
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RobbieThe1stI'm trying to find a nand-safe way to read/write images of the rootfs. I've already got a ramdisk chroot, so I can safely do it, but... I can't find any man-pages on this stuff!10:48
timeless_mbpthere are rare advantages to employment + being onsite :)10:49
RobbieThe1stI get grumped at for using DD (which, admittedly, has some problems with bad blocks), but I can't fix it, as I can't find any information on -how- to do so. >.<10:49
RobbieThe1stYea, I suppose there are10:49
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meceRobbieThe1st, well how does the flasher do it?10:50
timeless_mbpno one in their right mind uses dd10:50
timeless_mbpand there's no "fix"10:50
RobbieThe1stIt doesn't read it. That's one problem right there10:50
timeless_mbpit isn't a bug10:50
timeless_mbpjust a behavioral disconnect10:50
timeless_mbpdd = raw i/o10:50
timeless_mbpflash = system that *will* have bad blocks10:51
timeless_mbphence => use a different tool10:51
RobbieThe1stUm... Fix as in "make some sort of nokia-flasher flashable rootfs image"10:51
StskeepsRobbieThe1st: then mkfs.ubifs based on the root image :P10:51
timeless_mbpi'm pretty sure there are tools for that10:51
meceYou want to save "state" of the device, amiright?10:52
StskeepsRobbieThe1st: that's what i do locally10:52
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StskeepsRobbieThe1st: rsync to microsd, mkfs.ubifs on computer10:52
meceyay! new meego image :)10:52
RobbieThe1stOk, so working at the file level then?10:53
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timeless_mbpStskeeps: btw, is it faster to rsync to uSD or [ip] ?10:53
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Stskeepsgood question10:53
Stskeepsi think i rsync actually10:53
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timeless_mbpplease find out :)10:54
timeless_mbprsync can be used for either10:54
timeless_mbp(rsync is too versatile)10:54
RobbieThe1stThing is, the whole goal of this project is to build a system that will backup and restore N900 state images -without- using a computer. So, using mkfs.ubifs on the computer won't really work. I did figure out a way to just make and restore tarballs of files, which also should work...10:54
RST38hHow do I find out the IP address on a plain vanilla Maemo5?10:55
StskeepsRobbieThe1st: well, you cn technically mkfs.ubifs on device10:55
RST38h(i.e. no additional tools installed)10:55
RobbieThe1stRST: ifconfig10:55
RobbieThe1stmay need to be run as root though10:55
timeless_mbpRST38h:  open xterm10:55
timeless_mbp it's in sbin not bin (ie not $PATH)10:55
RST38hah, thanks10:55
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RobbieThe1stOk, so type "/sbin/ifconfig". There you go10:56
timeless_mbp /sbin/ifconfig10:56
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mecescout is a great app. just sayin'10:57
RST38hNah, no real IP. Pity, but expectable10:57
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RobbieThe1stHm... Just a question, and I'm sure there's a simple answer for it. So, I chroot to my ramdisk, unmount the rootfs and mount it to, say, /tmp/rootfs. Is there anything that will get screwed up by doing "rm -rf /tmp/rootfs/*" before restoring files to it?10:58
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meceRST38h, what do you mean no real ip?10:59
crashanddiehey dneary10:59
mecedneary, hi10:59
dnearyhi anddia10:59
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RobbieThe1stRST: You can always go to to find your external IP11:00
dnearyCrash Anddie11:01
dnearyA funny way to spell Andy, but hey, it's IRC11:01
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dnearyPpl dont no how 2 spl here11:01
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crashanddieyou just broke my sarcasmeter11:02
TermanaN900dneary, what's funny about that is that for a while i actually thought that's what he's nick said until i actually checked the spelling on it11:02
crashanddieTermanaN900, When I started out IRC in the early 90s, Undernet had a 9char limit on nicknames11:04
crashanddieTermanaN900, which meant my nick was "CrashandD"11:04
crashanddiebecause I was mainly in dutch channels, people thought it was "kras hand" (scratch hand)11:04
crashanddieI can't believe I just told a story from nearly two decades ago11:05
RST38hmece: I am behind NAT. Hence, no real external IP to ssh to.11:05
crashanddieRST38h, reverse SSH?11:05
RobbieThe1stIf you have access to the router, you can port-forward11:05
RST38hcrashanddie: too complicated for a cow.11:06
crashanddieRST38h, not really complicated once you wrap your head around, or are we talking about peanut brain power?11:06
meceRST38h, then I guess you don't know without consulting your nat or or some other place that gives your ip11:06
mecelike sshing somewhere and see there where you're connecting from?11:07
crashanddiedneary, talking about spelling, in Amsterdam, I had someone ask me if you were Romanian or something, because your French was good, but sounded a tad weird at times. When I said you were Irish, they replied "Ah yes, different alphabet doesn't help"11:07
crashanddieTo this day, I'm still not sure if they were joking or not.11:08
meceI agree that the irish alphabet is difficult11:09
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dnearycrashanddie, Funny :)11:20
dnearytimeless_mbp, Ogham11:20
* timeless_mbp waits for a computer w/ a working web browser to become available11:21
dnearycrashanddie, Romanian was already funny - I guess they never heard me speak English?11:21
dnearytimeless_mbp, We've had those for years11:21
dneary(/me drops OT chatter for now...)11:21
timeless_mbpmy n900 is syncing and i want to watch status, my mac is spending all its memory on windows, and windows is updating java11:22
timeless_mbp=> no browser hosts11:22
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timeless_mbpoh, java's done. reboot!11:22
timeless_mbp(the reboot was for the w7 updates which i installed first, not for java, but..)11:22
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RobbieThe1stAh, that's one thing I like about linux: Never having to reboot after updates11:24
timeless_mbpwhy does everyone think I'm "Josef"?11:24
timeless_mbpit's bad enough people think I'm Tim Eless11:24
jogaRobbieThe1st, well, you have to boot sometimes, or just the old stuff will be in memory11:24
jogaand of course when the kernel is updated unless you use magic trickery11:24
timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st:  linux really isn't better11:25
SpeedEviljoga: if you start/stop daemons - then stuff goes away11:25
timeless_mbpin theory there's a in kernel patcher for kernel stuff11:25
SpeedEviljoga: very little remains in RAM.11:25
RobbieThe1stWell, for me it just installs the new kernel on the next reboot. So while technically I'd have to reboot11:25
timeless_mbpbut if you have libraries loaded for critical services, you're going to somehow need to get those kicked11:25
timeless_mbpat a certain point you might as well reboot11:25
timeless_mbpand you're insane if you think the windows approach is bad11:25
RobbieThe1stI can generally finish my session, go to bed, and then tomorrow have it all updated11:25
jogaSpeedEvil, yeah but some core libs probably stay until you reboot or make a big effort11:25
timeless_mbpconsider that you have an n900 running PR1.211:25
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timeless_mbpwhich is *how* stale?11:26
timeless_mbpmost ubuntu boxes i visit are nearly as bad (or worse)11:26
RobbieThe1stWell, by stale, you mean?11:26
timeless_mbpi mean most of the apps have updates that you don't have11:26
RobbieThe1stI've got the latest updates in extras-devel, so...11:26
SpeedEvil core apps11:27
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timeless_mbpStskeeps:  omigosh!11:27
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Stskeepstimeless_mbp: hmm?11:27
timeless_mbpmountains moved. the earth shook. my patch for symbian was commited!11:27
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: scary11:27
RobbieThe1stWhat, one step closer to a stable, working OS? Wow11:27
timeless_mbpit was a giant spelling patch11:28
timeless_mbpjust to see how their patch management system works11:28
timeless_mbpthe answer is poorly, and rather slowly, but it does work11:28
timeless_mbpi'll provide a url once i get a working browser available near this irc client11:28
timeless_mbpStskeeps: actually, i suspect that it means that the time to integrate a patch into symbian is better than the time to get a fix into maemo11:29
timeless_mbpfor maemo my estimate has been 18 months11:29
timeless_mbpi think it took around 10 months for my patch to land in "for next release"11:29
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timeless_mbpand if they're doing a half year release cycle, that should mean the patch gets out in <18 :o11:30
Stskeepswell, next question is when it lands in a product release11:30
timeless_mbpi know11:30
timeless_mbpbut they have 7 months to beat the 18 month number for maemo11:31
timeless_mbp(which is report => product release)11:31
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RobbieThe1stWell, I'm glad that at least most of Maemo's OSS, so people can go develop their own patches and get them applied before the snail reporting system finally gets around to it11:32
Stskeepsit's not really, but ok11:32
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timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st: this was reported to the symbian foundation using their open bug tracker (bugzilla)11:33
timeless_mbpbased on their open source (mercurial managed) repositories11:33
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RobbieThe1stThen, why does it take so darn long?11:33
JaffaMorning, all11:33
RobbieThe1stActually, though, I meant about the 18-month Maemo cycle11:33
timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st:  oh11:34
StskeepsJaffa: morn11:34
timeless_mbpthat's basically "find a bug past the freeze date for a product which isn't shipping"11:34
timeless_mbpthat means:11:34
timeless_mbp1. wait for that product to get out the door11:34
timeless_mbp2. wait for its replacement to get out the door11:34
timeless_mbpthat generally averages to around 18 months11:34
RobbieThe1stIt seems like, on Linux based systems like these, you should have monthly or bi-monthly updates to the firmware, provided its bugs that are found11:36
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timeless_mbpmonthly is definitely out11:36
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RobbieThe1stFramework's already in place, all that would be needed is to upload new packages as-needed11:36
timeless_mbpit takes a month or so to test+certify an image11:36
RST38h...and here we go again.11:37
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timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st: that said, from my perspective as an engineer, i agree11:37
timeless_mbpand as someone working on security, i want to be able to push a release w/in 2 weeks11:37
timeless_mbpbut from seeing how things are done in a big company (and nokia is big)11:38
timeless_mbpit just isn't practical11:38
timeless_mbpaiming for 6 months is unfortunately realistic, and 3 months is optimistic11:38
timeless_mbpand by the time you reach 6 months you start competing for resources11:38
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RobbieThe1stIt seems like the security and issues like this should be left to individual OS/device team groups, so you guys would end up doing the whole find > test > betatest > release cycle yourself11:39
timeless_mbpthe groups aren't organized in any way that helps any of this11:39
timeless_mbpcurrently things are organized more or less by product11:40
timeless_mbpe.g. delivery of a complete stack for the n90011:40
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timeless_mbpwhich means that if you e.g. want to update the browser, you have to ensure that the media player doesn't regress while playing newer media content from a third party11:40
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timeless_mbpwhich might have changed its codec to be one that doesn't work well w/ the *unchanged* media player11:41
timeless_mbpit's possible to have an update scuttled because of something like that11:41
timeless_mbp(in general it isn't quite that bad, but..)11:41
timeless_mbpthe idea is that you do *not* want to ship an update which regresses things11:41
timeless_mbppeople *must* trust the update process11:41
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timeless_mbpso, there's a general belief (in management) that it's better to be late than early + buggy11:42
RST38hOne more time: update all non-critical packages (i.e. not requiring certification) and push them to Extras-devel or some other non-legally-binding repo11:42
RobbieThe1stWhile I understand that this won't happen, it seems like this should be dealt with through "devel", "testing" repos - Then, these things can be tested with a lot of people, etc.11:42
RST38hLet users test them, collect bug reports, stir, repeat11:42
timeless_mbpRST38h: i'm not opposed11:42
timeless_mbpbut to do that, you need a real team of people (not paid by nokia) to manage the reports11:43
RST38hThat is the problem: NOBODY is opposed, but it is just not getting DONE.11:43
timeless_mbpactually converting them to something useful11:43
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RST38hGuess what, we have even got people who manage reports11:43
timeless_mbpandre doesn't count here11:43
RST38hwell, b.m.o is being managed rather well, isn't it?11:43
RST38hWhy doesn't Anfre count?11:43
timeless_mbphe's paid to do <x>, and this would be above <x>11:44
timeless_mbpyou're asking for additional workload11:44
timeless_mbp(not sure who Anfre is btw)11:45
RobbieThe1stAnd again, on my side of things as the user: I run into a battery-eating bug, like the hildon-desktop bug. Now, it pretty much makes the device hard to use if not "broken" until its fixed; even a minor regression would be worth a fix. Fortunately, some kid managed to make a patch for it and provided a good fix, but still...11:45
TermanaN900timeless_mbp, i think he means Andre11:45
RST38hOk. Have one person do bug reports management. Properly.11:45
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timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st:  imagine if the update included something which was that battery eating bug11:46
andre__(Proper bug reports management also involves developers and I don't really see them in yet.)11:46
timeless_mbpimagine if most of the testers encounter it but can't figure it out11:46
timeless_mbpandre__: yet is optimistic11:46
timeless_mbpat this point i think that boat isn't going to sail11:46
RST38hTesters are not supposed to "figure it out". They are supposed to correclty report observed behaviour.11:47
RST38hDevelopers are supposed to figure it out and fix it.11:47
timeless_mbpRST38h:  not correct11:47
timeless_mbpideally QA figures it out11:47
timeless_mbpdevelopers are supposed to fix11:47
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RobbieThe1stWell, the thing is, despite the best practices you guys are using, it still got into PR1.2. So, yes, it will happen occasionally, which is why releasing a fix as soon as possible should have priority and shouldn't take months.11:48
RST38hHave you ever seen QA figuring out the cause of a bug?11:48
timeless_mbpbut keep in mind that you're asking to split resources11:48
timeless_mbpRST38h:  sure, for 10 years in realm:mozilla.org11:48
RST38hI mean, real, full-time, salaried QA?11:48
RST38hmozilla must be special then11:48
timeless_mbpthe salaried people @netscape, @sun, @ibm, @moco11:48
RST38hQA runs tests and reports testing results, afaik11:48
timeless_mbp(sun and ibm weren't specifically mozilla related)11:48
RST38hThey do not do debugging11:48
timeless_mbpyou're also missing a class of engineer11:49
timeless_mbpsun/oracle and friends have it11:49
timeless_mbpthey aren't developers, they're engineers who actually do customer oriented analysis/debugging11:49
* timeless_mbp can't remember the shiny title for that11:50
timeless_mbp(microsoft has them too, and they posted a "we're hiring" ad w/in the past 4 months iirc)11:50
RobbieThe1stSlightly off topic here, do you see any changes happening thanks to the new CEO etc.?11:51
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RST38htimeless: TCE/TME?11:52
RST38htimeless: these are not QA11:52
RST38hAnd yes, they do shitloads of debugging, they are just not QA :)11:52
timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st: nothing worth speaking about11:53
RobbieThe1stSad. Oh well.11:53
timeless_mbpnokia generally does reorgs every 12-24 months anyway11:53
timeless_mbpand someone said one was scheduled for around now11:53
timeless_mbpwhich means things would have shifted anyway...11:53
timeless_mbphe did come to visit the office, and was apparently well received11:54
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timeless_mbpbut it's really way too early for him to have a significant effect on things11:54
timeless_mbpbeyond the obvious bits where people come/go because management changes11:54
timeless_mbpone surprise i got was meeting someone who joined *because* the new ceo joined (and he arranged to start the same day)11:55
timeless_mbpthat to me shows some amount of confidence from others in him, which is probably one of the more meaningful indicators one can have this early11:56
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RST38hor it may show a certain amount of incincerity ;)12:00
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timeless_mbpok, sorry, it was only 8 months, not 10 months for the symbian landing12:15
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timeless_mbpand afaict it's only landed in their internal repo, not the public hg12:15
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timeless_mbpbut still, if i understand their schedule, it will probably beat the maemo 18 month average12:16
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RST38hSo, which one is it: too few developers or too many roadblocks they have to jump over to do their work?12:21
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timeless_mbproadblocks and roads12:23
timeless_mbpone developer is given e.g. 20 roads to go down12:23
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timeless_mbpconsider my symbian bug
povbotBug 1948: is not accessible.12:24
timeless_mbpi gave one developer an extra road to go down12:24
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timeless_mbp1. Symbian^3 ("stable")12:24
timeless_mbp2. Symbian^4 ("future") basic work12:24
timeless_mbp3. Vacation :)12:25
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timeless_mbp4. My extra task for him = one more road12:25
timeless_mbpin reality he probably had 5-20 roads for point 112:25
timeless_mbpand another 5-30 for point 212:25
RST38hAnd doing this in an evolutionary way, sharing components that are the same, is definitely NOT a solution?12:25
timeless_mbpand vacation involves planning, doing, reading email to recover12:26
RST38hAlso, isn't this a task for his project manager to correctly serialize different tasks and assign them to different people?12:26
timeless_mbp(it took me ~8 days to recover from a 1 month vacation)12:26
timeless_mbpif you want to look at it that way, then too few developers12:26
timeless_mbpfor my bug, it was properly serialized12:26
RST38hOk, so too few developers12:27
timeless_mbpit was incredibly unimportant12:27
timeless_mbpthus it deserved to be stuck at the very bottom of the pile12:27
timeless_mbpyou do know that adding developers doesn't magical get things done faster, right?12:27
timeless_mbpthe managers here don't12:27
timeless_mbpthey seem to think that doubling or tripling a team will magically double or triple productivity12:28
timeless_mbpthe reality is that new devs have to learn the stack, which generally means slowing down existing devs by asking for help (one way or the other)12:28
jarkkomcurrent troubles at nokia have been discussed quite a lot in finnish press but someone counted like 300+ people with "vice president" title at nokia12:28
timeless_mbpjarkkom: heh12:28
timeless_mbp(doesn't shock me at all)12:28
timeless_mbpnokia is "top heavy"12:28
jarkkomor as someone said that's too many people who can say "no" to feature while getting "yes" means going to CEO level12:29
RST38htimeless: of course, it depends on the task at hand12:30
jarkkomtimeless_mbp, also middle management.. I had a friend who was at Research and he reported to 4 different managers, he figured out if he simply stopped showing up it would probably takes couple of years before they'd notice12:30
RST38hThree excavators will not dig a tight hole faster than one12:30
timeless_mbpjarkkom: i have around that many managers12:31
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RST38hBut in this particular case, with this bug, it could be handled by some other person (not subsystem owner) perfectly well12:31
timeless_mbpwhen people ask me who my manager, i have to stop and think12:31
timeless_mbpafter i bit, i ask them "what do you mean?"12:31
timeless_mbpRST38h: actually, no12:31
timeless_mbpthe problem w/ a bug like this is that it incurs merge conflicts to any other pending work12:31
timeless_mbpplus there /might/ actually be some changes buried in it which are in fact dangerous12:32
Appiahhmm no changes to bug #6907. Kinda sucks when the music just starts playing after a phone call >_>12:32
povbotBug Media Player widget suddenly starts music after Phone call ends12:32
Appiahthought this was fixed in PR1.212:32
* timeless_mbp sighs12:32
timeless_mbpAppiah:  my personal gripe:12:32
timeless_mbp[still] Camera doesn't work while on a Call12:33
timeless_mbpi'm not trying to record a video , just take a photo of something i see12:33
timeless_mbpbut that's illegal while i'm on the phone12:33
* timeless_mbp curses managers12:33
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Appiahhaha what?12:33
timeless_mbp(or ui designers, whichever)12:33
timeless_mbptry it yourself...12:33
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Appiahnever ever thought of taking a picture while I'm on the phone12:34
timeless_mbpto perfectly reproduce, set up a skype account (no money required), call +1800555TELL w/ skype12:34
timeless_mbpit's a free call12:34
Appiahah skype test center?12:34
timeless_mbpthen try to take a photo12:34
timeless_mbpit's a real us phone service12:34
timeless_mbp+1-800-xxx-xxxx are free via skype12:34
AppiahI see12:34
timeless_mbpas are +(xx)800 numbers for various european countries12:34
jarkkomdid they give any reason? I know that everything involving camera has some pretty weird legal restrictions around it12:35
timeless_mbp(and 1888/1877/1866 the other toll free numbers)12:35
timeless_mbpjarkkom: supposedly a requirement to play a click sound12:35
timeless_mbpso yeah, basically it's some idiot's legal restriction12:35
jarkkomyeah that's legal requirement in some regions12:35
Appiahcant it send that out of the speaker meanwhile then?12:35
Appiahjust the stupid click sond12:35
timeless_mbpiirc the regions don't include countries our product is sold12:35
crashanddiesure it can12:35
timeless_mbps/our/where our/12:36
infobottimeless_mbp meant: iirc the regions don't include countries where our product is sold12:36
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crashanddiejust look at the fact that even with headphones plugged in, some sounds are still sent on the loudspeakers12:36
timeless_mbpthe reality is that people blame lots of things on lawyers12:38
Appiahthink I'm gonna remove the media player widget for now... cant have my music starting randomly after calls when im at the office..12:38
timeless_mbpit isn't the lawyers' fault12:38
timeless_mbpand there's generally a way to avoid the problem and still get work done12:38
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timeless_mbpit's sometimes a matter of thinking creatively (for about 5s)12:38
timeless_mbpbut that can be a really big problem in certain countries12:39
RobbieThe1st...Like provide a "global" version with the required functionality that can be user-flashed12:39
timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st:  no12:39
timeless_mbplike Appiah's thought "can't it send that out of the speaker..."12:39
timeless_mbpglobal versions wouldn't protect anyone from legal liability at all12:39
timeless_mbpanyone dumb enough to suggest that *would* be slapped by the lawyers12:40
RobbieThe1stWouldn't it be the user's fault then?12:40
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timeless_mbpprobably not12:40
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Appiaheeeep I dont wanna be slapped by lawyers =(12:40
jarkkomlegal system in middle east where that is pressing issue doesn't quite work that way12:40
RobbieThe1stIf the user manages to download a version(or modifiy it themselves) that's not designed for their region/device, its still Nokia's fault?12:40
timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st:  often it is12:41
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timeless_mbpe.g. if the user takes a  nokia phone and uses it to crash a cellular network12:41
timeless_mbpnokia will get the blame12:41
RST38htimeless: There is a version control system to make merging easier12:41
timeless_mbpRST38h: ever tried merging 2000 changes?12:41
Appiahwait , so they can punish companies for using open OSs?12:41
RobbieThe1stThen, how does Nokia protect itself?12:41
RST38hAnd if some developers do not do frequent commits of their work, they are doing their work wrong12:42
timeless_mbptimeless-mbp:accesssec timeless$ grep '^@@' .hg/patches/*|wc -l12:42
timeless_mbp     91812:42
timeless_mbpso i only had 918 changes12:42
timeless_mbpnot 2000 changes12:42
RobbieThe1stAppiah: It would be more like blaming Microsoft because someone got a virus and it brought down their network12:42
RST38htimeless: Yes, I did. Hence, frequent commits of work-in-progress.12:42
timeless_mbpbut if you have a couple of pending changes of your own...12:42
jarkkomAppiah, in many countries they can and will punish companies for whatever reason they feel like, just look at issues RIM is having right now12:42
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AppiahRIM jarkkom ?12:43
timeless_mbpAppiah: please don't assume the world is rational12:43
Appiahtimeless_mbp: I try not to12:43
timeless_mbpand please don't assume that the only part of the world that isn't rational is corporations12:43
RobbieThe1sthuh; what happens if the company doesn't have a presence in the area?12:43
timeless_mbpAppiah:  google RIM UAE12:43
timeless_mbpRobbieThe1st: global companies *want* to be able to have a presence12:43
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crashanddieRobbieThe1st, actually, if Microsoft had a contract with someone to provide a "secure operating system" that in any way "would not bring down their network", then they could12:43
timeless_mbpand ignoring that, it can mean that all of their employees are forbidden to travel there12:43
timeless_mbpotherwise they might risk imprisonment12:43
timeless_mbpAppiah:  um, yeah12:44
timeless_mbpthe real world is not the utopia you think it is12:44
timeless_mbplook at China12:44
RobbieThe1stcrashanddie: Yet, I don't think Nokia(etc) has ever said that their device/os is perfectly secure? How could that work then?12:44
Appiahwoaah I never thought the world was an utopia12:44
RST38hit is the utopia you do not think it is12:44
timeless_mbpa guy gets a nobel prize or something, his wife gets sent to prison12:44
RobbieThe1stAnd yea, things need to be changed. Probably forcefully.12:44
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RST38hwell, he has got his nobel prize exactly for risking to be sent to prizon12:45
RST38hSo, I do not see how this is irrational12:45
timeless_mbpthere was another case somewhere else in SE Asia where a guy got into further trouble because someone else tried to *visit* him12:45
timeless_mbpRST38h: his wife didn't get a prize12:45
timeless_mbpjust prison12:45
RST38hWell, next time Osama bin Laden tries visiting YOU, make sure you cover the aftermatch in your blog12:46
RST38h(if you will still have one)12:46
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timeless_mbpi think my blog's web server is currently down12:46
RST38hWell, lacking the guy himself, his family is the next logical target12:46
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RST38hSo, no, the Chinese may be cruel, but they are by no means absurd12:47
timeless_mbplacking the company12:47
timeless_mbpthe next logical target is empoyees12:47
timeless_mbpto use RST38h's logic for my point12:47
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timeless_mbpwhich was exactly what i wanted to express12:47
RST38hInstead, try that US kid who brought a toy gun to school and has been banned from the state school system for a year now12:47
RST38hActually, employees are a piss poor target12:47
timeless_mbpAppiah: fwiw, a colleague of mine couldn't visit the US for a while12:47
timeless_mbpbecause his company had pending litigation12:47
RobbieThe1stIt seems very hard to do anything multi-national; have -any- features different on a per-region basis...12:48
timeless_mbpif he visited, he'd have been stuck in jail until the trial was resolved12:48
RST38hAlthough they can be used as such at the times of dire need. See Russian Government vs. British Petroleum case12:48
timeless_mbpso don't think that this is a SE-Asia or ME only thing12:48
timeless_mbpemployees/companies are affected even in the "civilized" world12:48
timeless_mbpcountries do not like to be messed with12:49
RST38hYou want highranking employees though12:49
RST38hI.e. yourself are not at risk12:49
RST38h(or me, for this reason)12:49
timeless_mbpand they generally do not care who they hurt12:49
timeless_mbpRST38h:  when i say colleague, i mean a fellow engineer of roughly the same pay grade as me, working in my team12:49
RST38hWell, a state is not a person, so normal human taboos (like ethics) do not apply12:50
timeless_mbpsure a country will try to take the highest person it can12:50
timeless_mbparresting a CEO is much better than a janitor12:50
RST38hCorollary: When you see a state make a stately move, run for your life :)12:50
timeless_mbpbut if all you can get is a secretary, you might take it12:50
RST38hArresting a secretary or an engineer is useless12:50
RST38hI mean, some stupid middle eastern monarchy may do it on a whim12:51
RST38hBut states like China or Russia will either go for the top manager or some systemic move that prevents company from functioning12:51
timeless_mbpRST38h:  have you read "On the Wings of Eagles"?12:51
timeless_mbpsome companies do care about their employees12:52
timeless_mbpEDS apparently was one12:52
timeless_mbp(pretty amazing story btw, worth the read)12:52
RST38hEDS? Yea, right... :)12:52
* RST38h will not comment on this particular statement :)12:53
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timeless_mbpRST38h: yeah, general views of EDS aside12:54
timeless_mbpwhat they did there was good12:54
jarkkomit isn't that long ago when bunch of nokia siemens guys got arrested for couple of weeks once because Iran and UAE are arguing about bunch of islands12:54
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jarkkomtheir fishing trip included extra vacation time in iran12:54
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* timeless_mbp shouldn't be laughing … at all12:55
timeless_mbpseems to be jarkkom's item12:57
timeless_mbpi should note that Nokia Maps isn't very good12:58
timeless_mbpyou can try it yourself, you can visit "Detroit, Canada"12:58
timeless_mbp(technically that's really more of a German sourced feature than a Finnish sourced feature, but...)12:59
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jpinx-eeepcHa!  Try using the maps here :(13:01
Appiahtimeless_mbp: had a friend apply for a student visa (US) and waited like the instruction said some days for (maybe it was 3) for a response. after 5 days he sent another one since he didnt get any response. He got a answer 1 day after day and they declined him beacuse he sent 2 :)13:01
RST38htimeless: The keyword is Iran.13:02
timeless_mbpRST38h: *shrug*13:02
timeless_mbpUAE isn't much better13:02
timeless_mbpRIM ended up w/ trouble in *most* ME countries13:02
RST38hPetty middle eastern monarchies, Do not go there.13:02
RST38hSame for most of the Africa,13:02
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RST38hAnd yes, I can tell you a few really savory stories about people getting in trouble in the US, straight out of the blue13:04
timeless_mbpof note, Iran isn't a monarchy :)13:04
timeless_mbp(not that the difference matters)13:04
RST38hNot yet, right13:04
timeless_mbpbtw, democracies in those countries wouldn't make things better13:04
RST38hShould go through at least one hereditary power transfer13:04
timeless_mbpRST38h: yeah well… until then it isn't technically a monarchy13:04
RST38hThat last statement is too deep for the scope of this discussion13:05
timeless_mbpand even then, that means you're calling N. Korea a monarchy13:05
RST38hYes, I am13:05
RST38hAny problems with that?13:05
timeless_mbpIraq and Afghanistan are "democracies", but that doesn't help13:05
marmouteRST38h: monargie as nothing to do with hereditary transfert13:05
timeless_mbpyou need a rational educated middle class13:05
* timeless_mbp lets marmoute cover that point13:05
RST38hIraq and Afghanistan are two US-occupied shitholes13:05
RST38hAnd, in the latter case, the US helped making it a shithole in the 80s.13:06
RST38hOtherwise, it would be a semi-normal post-socialist failed state by now. :)13:06
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Myrttioh christ, I read about Facebook new security features for 5 minutes, and you've already moved over to the crazyhouse stuff13:07
marmouteOne day, our beloved french president dismiss monarchical accusation by saying "I'm not the son of my predecessors". when people raised that monarchy as nothing to do with this he quickly evade the question.13:12
marmouteThis was "fun"13:12
marmoutetimeless_mbp: for the french stuff or the hereditary stuff ?13:15
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timeless_mbpthe whole blob?13:15
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marmouteThe french stuff is quite old I'm not sure to find it. The hereridary stuff: Any monarch definition in a decent dictionnary13:17
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TermanaN900That's funny, you think being the french president he would just surrender to the questions13:18
marmoutetimeless_mbp: I can't find non french report.13:19
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lardman|homealterego: looking for and accidentally went to ;)13:42
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alteregolardman: :D13:42
* lardman hasn't looked at yet, is it work-safe?13:43
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SpeedEvilApart from all the nsfw13:46
lardmannote to self, never trust SpeedEvil ;)13:47
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jpinx-eeepcdammit - anyone got the usb networking to really work - including the use of a laptop hosts wifi as the gateway for things like application manager?13:52
pupnikI think Nokia is making a mistake not saying N900 will officially get 'meego' as an upgrade.13:52
pupnikI mean... Build a bridge, guys.13:53
openstandardslmao @ SpeedEvil, thanks.... good thing i ain't at work :)13:53
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pupnikSo what are the market surveys saying people want smaller phones with less battery life13:54
openstandardsalso would give them a good testing platform too13:54
openstandardsI like the size of the n900, and i just keep an extra battery in my wallet :)13:55
psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, I have, but in my setup I have desktop going through wired13:56
psycho_oreosand for that you need dummy networking, its explained in that same usb networking page13:56
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jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: yea - I tried the dummy network, but it didn't seem to do it -- maybe I'll try again...13:59
psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, if its successful you should have dummy network option under networks14:00
jpinx-eeepcopenstandards: that means powering down the whole device - a very poor solution14:00
psycho_oreosand if its right it should be selected with personal IP address showing the ip address of usb014:00
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jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: yea - i got that before,. Maybe i need to try different options on it14:00
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openstandardsjpinx-eeepc, the battery life isn't too bad if you don't keep on your wifi...etc14:01
jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: ok - thanks - I'll persevere tonight and see if I can make it behave14:01
psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, well in the wiki for that there's two ways, I think they initially mention using null but they later recommended dummy and then specified ways in which you can get dummy network to appear14:01
jpinx-eeepcopenstandards: I have stuff running all the time, even when not online, so powering down is not an option14:02
jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: yes - I was using dummy14:02
openstandardsfair enough, then those external battery packs exist14:03
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jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: I use thiss eeepc as a thin client to ssh  in for the sake of the kbd and screen, and for now the wifi - 'cos it's a crappy public wifi with web-based login14:03
jpinx-eeepcopenstandards: 50% increase in the bulk of the battery would probably double it's capacity14:04
psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, lol you can still use n900 solely to connect those public wifi, maccas out where I live have similar setup but really its easy to setup usb networking14:04
jpinx-eeepcand only add maybe 1mm to the phone14:04
openstandardsbigger batteries do exist but i don't think you can use the camera then, bad bad design flaw in the after market battery14:05
MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, ping14:06
MohammadAG51got a ph0, disassembled the device, sorta, but I hesitated to take out the ribbon14:07
MohammadAG51reassembled it, screen's still moving14:08
MohammadAG51I might remove the ribbon14:09
DocScrutinizerproly slider mech defect14:09
MohammadAG51then tighten the slider itself14:09
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MohammadAG51i'm not surprised really, fell a long distance yesterday14:09
MohammadAG51car braked, so it flew a bit14:09
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MohammadAG51btw DocScrutinizer, I cycled the bouncer, no more lag14:10
MohammadAG51(jumped to next server)14:10
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openstandardshas anyone tried the neopwn packet injection driver14:10
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MohammadAG51openstandards, yes, it works14:10
MohammadAG51I cracked my school's WEP14:11
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG51: they will shoot you one day14:11
MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, I used hostmode to pull off some docs from the teacher's flash, I told her about it after I pulled them though lol14:12
openstandardstakes hours to write to sd :(14:13
MohammadAG51dd from sd to eMMC, whole device will hang14:13
DocScrutinizertakes hours to cp from sd to eMMC14:13
MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, the whole device crashed when I wanted to dd if=SD of=somewhereoneMMC14:14
DocScrutinizerno need to dd, a simple cp will do14:14
MohammadAG51I only had 1MB of files on the SD...14:14
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openstandardsthats what i'm doing tar to /dev/mm ...... started at 9ish this morning its now noon14:14
Myrttidd has a tendency to be oversimplifying14:14
MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, and for hostmode, mounting on /media/somefolder WILL rape the CPU14:15
Myrttiand thus making things more difficult14:15
MohammadAG51tracker kicks in, indexes the flash drive or DVD14:15
MohammadAG51then thumbnailer follows14:15
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MohammadAG51when you remove the flash, it thinks you deleted the files, reindexes whole device14:15
DocScrutinizercp -a did same for me14:15
DocScrutinizerafter 10 min the last process froze14:16
DocScrutinizerswap being usual suspect14:17
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MohammadAG51yeah, and the kernel bug14:17
MohammadAG51iirc X-Fade said the issue with writing to eMMC was reduced in 1.314:17
ShadowJKPeople refer to a "kernel bug", but the one I've seen quoted is a bug introduced after the ancient kernel on n900?14:18
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DocScrutinizerissue with writing ? have no, over ass rage I got err 13MB/s14:18
RobbieThe1stAny -right- way to remove the thumbnailer? As in, any way to make it work "on-demand", and just thumbnail as icons are shown?14:18
ShadowJKAnd really only applies to multi-device situations14:18
ShadowJKwhere one device is significantly faster/slower than the other14:18
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* ShadowJK wants one device per function :(14:21
ShadowJKdedicated swap device14:21
ShadowJKdedicated application device, and device for media storage14:21
* DocScrutinizer tries to calculate how long it takes minimum to fill a class2 16G uSD, fails, wanders off for coffee and a hot lemmon14:21
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ShadowJK2.5 hours or so14:24
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wazdhi all14:24
Stskeepslo wazd14:24
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ShadowJKAbout 6 with write-seek heavy load going on simultaneously on the source card :)14:24
ShadowJKI accidentally bought a Class 2 microsd once14:26
ShadowJKit actually felt faster than a class 6 fullsize SD card14:26
ShadowJKin my N800, swapping to it14:26
ShadowJKI wonder if this class6 SD is dual/quad channel or something, would explain why it seems slower14:26
DocScrutinizerlarger blocks14:27
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ShadowJK8G vs 16G14:27
ShadowJKcould be14:27
wazdJaffa: ping? :)14:27
neekersto set up using a c compiler and c++ compiler, is this the proper command? sb2-init -c /usr/bin/qemu-arm armv7 /home/nick/arm-2010q1/bin/arm-none-linux-gnueabi-gcc /home/nick/arm-2010q1/bin/arm-none-linux-gnueabi-g++14:27
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neekerswhat i wrote?14:30
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neekersi keep getting a /lib/cpp fails sanity check when i run .configure in sb214:31
neekersi added the second compiler with sb2-init and it didn't complain but it didn't solve the sanity check error either...14:32
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neekersi know that sb2 lets you change the target on the fly but can you change the compiler?14:33
ShadowJKI'm entirely clueless about sb and sb2 :)14:34
neekersdon't you use sb2 with maemo?14:34
jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: I've got libicd-network-null installed and done the two commands specified, but not the last two optional ones.  What needs restarting to make it effective?14:34
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MohammadAG51how do I convert an mp4 file to mpe14:35
jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: and done killall icd214:35
ShadowJKI use the vm image that comes preinstalled with something painful..14:35
DocScrutinizerhow do i convert a zoo into a rabbit?14:36
RST38hDoc: Kill every animal but the rabbit?14:36
neekersmeat grinder14:36
psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, you should see null network or something like that, do you see that entry?14:36
DocScrutinizerlook, with mp4 it's the same :-P14:37
psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, under internet connection14:37
jpinx-eeepcyep - selected that14:37
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MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, seriously, I want to remove the video stream14:37
DocScrutinizerkill it :-P14:37
psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, try surfing the web now through n900, it should use yer laptop's wifi14:38
ShadowJKmplayer file.mp4 -ao pcm -aofile sound.wav -vo null -vc dummy ; lame sound.wav sound.mp3 ; rm sound.wav14:38
DocScrutinizerseriously NFC. I guess some video edit apps might have an option to save audio separately14:38
jpinx-eeepcit does . but it's application manager that was not connecting before14:38
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jpinx-eeepcrunning appl mngr now....14:39
pupnikJust saw a 1987 Cheers where a joke was made out of Frasier's brand-new _Cell_Phone_ ringing in his suitcase, and Carla picking up the payphone in the back of the bar because she was fooled by the ringing of the cell phone.14:39
Jaffawazd: pong14:39
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psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, imo if the browser works through it then application manager or whichever other applications that utilises the dbus should be able to connect by now14:40
meceMohammadAG51, something like mplayer -dumpaudio video.mp4 -dumpfile sound.wav14:40
meceoh, ShadowJK's was better :)14:40
ShadowJKmece, that dumps the raw audio, in whatever format it is14:40
* DocScrutinizer utters a toast on ShadowJK14:40
ShadowJKand raw aac usually "doesn't work" since information required for playback is stored in the container14:40
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meceShadowJK, good to know :)14:41
jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: I had the browser working before, but not app mngr14:41
ShadowJKit'd work to extract mp3 though, because each mp3 frame is essentially self contained14:41
jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: it says it's checking for updates...  very slow....14:41
psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, yeah which is weird imo, when I checked the connection with browser its usually a tell tale sign14:42
psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, yup HAM is like that :)14:42
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jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: ok - progress bar is moving -- just ;)14:42
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: what did you say is your daywork?14:43
ShadowJKI didn't14:43
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psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, had it been me I would have gkrellm running on the USB host to see the network activity14:43
DocScrutinizerI'm sure you occasionally mentioned it14:43
smoophHi anybody here try the kubuntu mobile for the n90014:43
jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: it says (no updates available)14:43
jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: but that could mean anything...14:44
psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, yeah but if there would be an error it would show that and if you check under the repositories instead of green circle you get red circle with white asterisk marked on the repository lines14:44
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: whatever it is, your boss oughta be damn happy about you14:44
jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: where do the repos show up?14:45
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MohammadAG51ShadowJK, thanks14:45
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ShadowJKNow I'm getting paranoid, what have I done14:46
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jpinx-eeepcBah! Operation in progress - please wait :(14:46
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DocScrutinizerhehe, demonstrating a rarely found level of knowledge and professionalism for a long continuous period - that's all14:47
psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, lol I have CPU/MEM status bar for that, after HAM gets the files it needs to do loads of stuff which usually hogs CPU.. but after hogging CPU it dives down and its generally ok for one to check the repos14:47
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jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: so how do I know when it's munching or just sulking?14:48
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psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, you can't imo.. you can only tell if its busy or not with HAM and using the CPU/MEM status applet14:49
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jpinx-eeepcwhere do I get that?14:49
jpinx-eeepcif HAM isn't behaving :(14:49
MohammadAG51any recommednations for video editors?14:50
MohammadAG51need to mix music with a video14:50
DocScrutinizerload applet is mandatory, like RPM meter in a car14:50
psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, its in the normal repos afaik, I didn't get just that I got one that bundles that with screenshot and video recording tool14:50
MohammadAG51I drive without an RPM meter14:50
* psycho_oreos checks his under HAM14:50
jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: Hmm . applicaation manager has the little rotsting wand thing going on here....14:51
psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, yeah its still doing its job lol14:52
DocScrutinizerjpinx-eeepc: load applet14:52
jpinx-eeepcDocScrutinizer: system tools?14:52
psycho_oreosoh mine is already done (despite enabling red pill mode)14:52
DocScrutinizerjpinx-eeepc: HAM for me takes like 5min to 'open'14:52
jpinx-eeepcwhic catalogue14:52
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jpinx-eeepcwhat's the name of the applet in the listing?14:53
DocScrutinizerjpinx-eeepc: no idea really, I'd guess load applet should be in extras now14:53
jpinx-eeepcsheesh I wish it was just apt-get install foo14:53
psycho_oreosyup as DocScrutinizer said, load applet.. and go into All, start typing in the letters for the name of the app14:53
psycho_oreosyou can14:53
DocScrutinizername: "load applet"14:53
psycho_oreosload-applet it is if you're doing it via apt-get in CLI14:55
jpinx-eeepcI lovve it - "do you agree that this might totally brick your device"  WTF?  :)14:55
DocScrutinizerlet me goog... err apt-cache search that for you :-)14:55
jpinx-eeepcit's coming....14:55
jpinx-eeepcbut then - so is Xmas....14:55
psycho_oreosreminds me of some bloke ranting on in the tmo threads about putting as much warnings on extras-devel and extras-testing repos14:56
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DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# apt-cache search load|grep applet14:56
DocScrutinizerload-applet - Show CPU and memory usage, take screenshots, record screencasts.14:56
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jpinx-eeepcw00t - it says it's installed14:57
DocScrutinizerwhat did w0ot to it?14:57
jpinx-eeepcso HAM must be using the wifi on my laptop over the usb network14:57
* jpinx-eeepc updates again....14:57
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DocScrutinizeryes, a particularly nice and annoying part14:58
jpinx-eeepcyikes - there's all kinds of little gremlins in the taskbar now14:58
openstandardsis usb host mode working with the n900 now?14:58
psycho_oreoswell there you go usb networking is working now14:59
DocScrutinizerkinda, yes14:59
jpinx-eeepcopenstandards: yes -- as of 5 minut6es ago :)14:59
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jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: ok - two little bargraphs - which one is telling me what?15:00
openstandardsi love the n90015:00
psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, first bar (left) is CPU, second bar (right) is MEM15:00
jpinx-eeepcDocScrutinizer: that page should be in the topic here ;)15:00
openstandardsthe community that works on it is outstanding15:00
jpinx-eeepcOOooer - red cpu15:01
DocScrutinizerjpinx-eeepc: duh, why?15:01
jpinx-eeepcupdating again15:01
DocScrutinizerjpinx-eeepc: aiui red means system cpu load15:01
jpinx-eeepcpsycho_oreos: cool - that's making sense now :)  thanks a bunch :)15:01
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* jpinx-eeepc fires up a few apps to see the redbars...15:02
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jpinx-eeepcHmm .. of course you can only see the bars in the desktop toolbar, not when the app window is open...  :/15:03
DocScrutinizerwhile true; do :; done15:03
DocScrutinizerwatch cpu hit the roof15:03
psycho_oreosjpinx-eeepc, no worries.. and if you see red flashing (only the top most block on one bar or two if at worst) it means its using almost all CPU load15:03
jpinx-eeepcyea - i guessed that ;)  Is there a way to see the load bars when an app window is open?15:04
DocScrutinizermake sure you got a second xterm open, and maybe nice the loop suggested above :-) otherwise killing it might get hard15:04
dolpQMessageManager countMessages function is brokeeeeen.. anyone tried it?15:04
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jpinx-eeepcDocScrutinizer: that'll make it fry eggs :p15:05
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DocScrutinizeryep :-P15:05
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* jpinx-eeepc goes for food15:06
jpinx-eeepctesting unplug/replug....u15:06
DocScrutinizerjpinx-eeepc: (is there a way) sure, usually the status bar is visible with app windows as well, no?15:07
_trinehas anyone else noticed recaller making several identical recordings for 1 event ?15:07
jpinx-eeepcDocScrutinizer: my bad - I had it fullscreen15:07
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DocScrutinizerfriggin bs apps like ovi maps or canola think they know better how to display this :-/15:08
jpinx-eeepcmaps and stuff are totally useless to me out here15:09
jpinx-eeepcUSA and europe only I suppose15:09
DocScrutinizerhow silly is *that*? go for fullscreen, then emulate the top bar15:09
jpinx-eeepcthe browser is the only app I have found that actually goes fullscreen - the rest still reserve top or bottom...15:11
* DocScrutinizer is cursing indicator LED not blinking blue despite inbound mail - just a green charging indication15:11
DocScrutinizerjpinx-eeepc: ovi maps also is fullscreen *always*15:12
DocScrutinizerthe status area shown upper left in ovi maps screen is a fake15:13
jpinx-eeepcI Hmm'15:14
* jpinx-eeepc fires up maps15:14
jpinx-eeepclooking for GPS...15:14
DocScrutinizerxchat easily goes fullscreen on ctrl-enter, as does xterm on klicking the toolbar fullscreen icon15:14
jpinx-eeepcboy is it slow compared to te iphone15:15
jpinx-eeepcirssi is in an Xterm, so reserves a bottom bar for virtual Esc Ctrl etc15:15
jpinx-eeepcheh - maps is only about 1000kms out15:16
jpinx-eeepcit's got me in HoChiMinh15:17
DocScrutinizerone of the worst things in ovi maps is it's re-rendering all the street names for every single pixel of window moving - useless cpu load15:17
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jpinx-eeepcyea - it's trying to render the whole of SE Asia in pretty colours now...15:18
DocScrutinizerjpinx-eeepc: odds are it gets you to "center of your country" until a real GPS fix got established15:18
_trinehas anyone had a problems with 'recaller' making multiple recordings ?15:19
jpinx-eeepcI'll leave it running to see how it gets on15:19
DocScrutinizer_trine: yes15:19
_trineDocScrutinizer, was there a solution15:19
jpinx-eeepcbut it's just as well I am not lost in a taxi!! :)15:19
DocScrutinizer_trine: reboot, and disable nottifications :-S15:20
_trineDocScrutinizer, which modifications ?15:20
DocScrutinizernotifying every 30s "ongoing record: 123456432_foo_bar.acc"15:21
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_trineDocScrutinizer, I dont understand15:21
DocScrutinizer_trine: seems it's happening when I finish a call before far end answered15:22
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_trineI was wondering if there were multiple instances of 'recaller' somehow15:22
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DocScrutinizer_trine: my problem was recaller popping up a notification every 30s about "recording active: <name of file>", after I did a call and finished it without far end responding15:23
_trinewell its not done that yet here15:24
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_trinebut it is making several recordings of the same event15:24
DocScrutinizerthe major PITA of recaller is it's running as a desktop widget15:24
jpinx-eeepcdammit - cpu on red, stomach on empty :(15:24
_trineDocScrutinizer, yes I agree but I dont know of anything better to do the same job15:25
DocScrutinizerso aiui you a) got no proper distinct process to monitor, kill etc, and b) you probably actually get multiple recaller instances when you got multiple desktop widgets15:25
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_trineDocScrutinizer, yes I did have a widget on 2 different screens but I have corrected that now,, one of the widgets was hiding underneath another15:27
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DocScrutinizerthat's been the cause15:27
_trineDocScrutinizer, yes I'm waiting for when I need to use my phone again to test that now15:28
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_trineI dont want to waste a call for just a test15:28
DocScrutinizersome people exploiting that "bug" to have one recaller instance for phonecall recording, another one configured to be used as dictaphone etc15:29
_trineI like the bar code reader app15:29
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_trineDocScrutinizer, thats a good idea I never thought of doing that15:30
DocScrutinizerI actually kinda hate that concept, it's kinky15:31
DocScrutinizerrecaller should become a proper app, rather than a widget15:31
_trineI tried 'recorder' app and thats terrible15:32
DocScrutinizerwith proper daemon started via initscript, to auto-record calls (or maybe even hook into dbus-scripting)15:32
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DocScrutinizerrunning a whole app (even multiple instances) under the cloak of hildon-desktop widget manager (whatever the real name of this one) is a disgusting idea15:33
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fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: you just gave me another idea for mycontacts: auto record calls from a group of contacts.... This way one can record for example just the work related calss15:34
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DocScrutinizerfcrochik: check barisione 's per contact ringtones pkg. It has plugin API to do other nice things depending on data stored to contacts15:37
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: tor15:37
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: I saw that but mycontacts (my app) does other stuff too....15:38
GAN900Sponsorship emails sure are taking forever.15:38
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DocScrutinizerlo GAN90015:39
fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: TOR=seems that communi on the n900 does not handle the tab right15:39
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fcrochikDocScrutinizer51: word prediction and TAB for nicknames needs some fine tunning15:41
dnearyamigadave, Ping?15:41
dnearyamigadave, I'm running through the getting started docs again15:41
dneary& it seems like we're missing a "testing your package on your N900" section in the Packaging article15:42
dnearyWhat do you think?15:42
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amigadavedneary: pong15:45
amigadavegood idea, what sort of testing do you envisage?15:45
amigadavelooking at the package contents, testing installation, etc.?15:46
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dnearyWell, I just tried to install hello.deb on my n900 and got "invalid package"15:48
dnearyBasically, how to copy a .deb onto the phone & install it15:48
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_trinedneary, from a console use dkpg -i app.deb15:50
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DocScrutinizer51damn, landlord cutting the ivy and now my phone landline is dead :-/15:52
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer51, I couldn't resist, disassembled my device15:52
MohammadAGand the ribbon15:52
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GAN900Hi, DocScrutinizer51.15:54
SpeedEvilMohammadAG: for any reason?15:55
MohammadAGyes, slider's a bit creaky, device fell twice in a month15:56
MohammadAGone of those situations was close to yours, bed sheets15:56
SpeedEvilThe worst enemy!15:56
SpeedEvilDo you happen to have it in a case?15:56
MohammadAGno scratches, it fell on a soft surface, but the slider has a ~1mm gap15:57
Stskeepssoft surfaces are usually worse than hard surfaces15:57
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ieatlintDocScrutinizer51: haha... good thing you're not on dsl15:58
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DocScrutinizer51disassembling is easy. reassembling and not breaking it... isn't15:59
DocScrutinizer51ieatlint: yeah, cursing the burriedness of "switch to wlan if available"16:00
crashanddie_disassembling arm binary code is a bitch though16:00
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MyrttiI dropped my Nexus One on Sunday and it cracked a bit, and I was scared shit of "just push it back in place, dumbass"16:01
ieatlintrj11 is easily repaired... just annoying16:01
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DocScrutinizer51it's not exactly rj11, but yes. He just called me announcing a 60min downtime to find a better path for the cable, now that it's cut anyway XD16:03
dsghuh, my n900 just rebooted in my pocket16:03
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* DocScrutinizer51 pondering tethering N900 to LAN16:04
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer51, and then god said, let there be light!16:10
MohammadAGmy N900 powered on xP16:10
jaskaand there was blue screen!16:10
MohammadAGthough seriously, WHY THE FUCK is the ribbon this light?16:11
ShadowJK128 grams16:11
MohammadAGit's lighter than the tape16:11
SpeedEvilMore fatigue resistance I suspect16:11
ShadowJKoops, 18116:11
SpeedEvilThicker generally means more strain onbending16:12
DocScrutinizer51the flimpsy part is the b2b connector though, plus the piggybacked 2nd layer FPC jumper patch on there16:14
MohammadAGtrue, but the PS3 uses almost the same ribbons (they don't clip like this though - they go in a latch and you seal that), and they're much heavier and bend a lot more16:14
DocScrutinizer51PS3 got moving FPC? where?16:15
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kerionot a lot of people notice that16:16
keriobecause PS3 HAS NO GAEMS16:16
visthere's tekken?16:17
visno need for other games16:17
keriopff tekken16:17
DocScrutinizer51you'd bet the laser block FPC - which is the only one I see moving on a PS3 -  is a whole lot smaller and thinner than the screen ribbon in N90016:17
keriostreet fighter > tekken any day of the week16:17
kerioDocScrutinizer51: slot loading drive16:18
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DocScrutinizer51kerio: so what?16:18
keriomaybe that's the moving part16:18
kerioi'd say the rest is pretty... static16:18
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kerioMohammadAG: what else moves with a ribbon cable?16:19
kerioi mean, in a ps316:19
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MohammadAGmoving? nothing16:19
n900-spacehi all16:19
MohammadAGnot moving, a lot16:19
MohammadAGbig fail16:20
* MohammadAG disassembles again16:20
keriowait, why do they use ribbon cables for static things16:20
crashanddie_because they're easier to assemble by machines16:20
DocScrutinizer51kerio: it's usual nowadays16:20
* RST38h yawns and sticks a screwdriver into whatever Muhammad is disassembling16:20
crashanddie_It's Mohammad16:21
DocScrutinizer51RST38h: start with your own N900?16:21
MohammadAGkerio, ironic reason16:23
MohammadAGso you don't use the drive on a PC, yet on the slim it's a SATA cable16:23
DarkNostrili got some other funny religious things i found here16:23
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ieatlintcrashanddie_: i'm often criticised for my tasteless and offensive jokes, but i think you definitely win today16:25
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crashanddie_How about you piss the fuck off and let me be?16:25
ieatlintoh, you misunderstand, i'm not criticising16:25
crashanddie_my bad, then.16:26
ieatlinti usually target christians myself... they're more plentiful where i live, and much more righteous16:26
Myrttihealthy hobbies etc...16:27
ieatlinteh, my hobby doesn't include telling others about how a mythical figure named god disapproves of them and how they're going to suffer an eternity in hell for being who they are16:29
Myrttino, it includes telling others how you disapprove them16:31
Myrttiirony ftw16:32
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ieatlintvery true, but with god on their side, it shouldn't matter16:32
MyrttiI must've transported to an alternate universe where all this makes sense somehow16:33
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Myrttiinstead of being a venue for discussing maemo, it's a place for discussing monarchies, heredity of rule, north korean hamburgers and religion16:34
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer51, took out ribbon again, still working16:37
MohammadAGyour model was probably defective16:37
* MohammadAG waves16:37
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GAN900Myrtti, clearly we need new hardware.16:38
DocScrutinizer51MohammadAG51: that's what I (and implicitly Nokia repair) thought as well16:39
MyrttiGAN900: my brain needs less memory16:39
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DocScrutinizermeh, tethering N900 to laptop (knetworkmanager) wasn't as simple as I thought it should be16:52
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SpeedEvilI just did it old-skool - and wrote a pppd conf16:55
SpeedEvilpppd call t-mobil16:56
MohammadAG51yay, fixed it16:56
jaskapppd call ghostbusters16:56
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MohammadAG51where's a link to the theme maker for the N900?17:02
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bluaGood morning! After it sat in the junk drawer for years, I finally got my old n800 working again :) :) :)17:15
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bluaI got OS2008 on it now and I would love some suggestions for fun things to install that don't need a hardware keyboard.17:16
crashanddie_blua, enable host mode and connect USB keyboard to it? :)17:19
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bluaheheheh... might pick up a nice bluetooth keyboard later. Any ideas for nice touch only programs? It's just a nice toy at this point. I really thought it was never coming back.17:20
crashanddie_blua, host mode enables you to connect any USB device to it...17:21
bluaCan you explain that or point me to documentation for it, please?17:21
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crashanddie_plenty of results on google for "N800 usb host mode"17:22
bluasure enough...17:22
crashanddie_seems to be promising17:22
crashanddie_blua, other fun things: get an arduino to control a hardware lock, then bluetooth shield, then program the n800 to be your own unlocking key17:23
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blua*taking notes*17:24
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RST38hCan I power USB handwarmer off my N900 using USB OTG?17:24
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RST38hOr should I simply run the PSX emulator and use N900 itself as a handwarmer?17:25
bluaThat would take a lot of juice.17:25
crashanddie_RST38h, yup17:25
bluaoh there's the punchline.. that was funny :)17:25
bluaAny game suggestions?17:25
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crashanddie_lcuk, I want liqbase-enabled multi-n900 4-in-a-row and naval battle17:27
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lcukcrashanddie_, go for it then17:30
StskeepsRST38h: meego n900 makes an -excellent- handwarmer.17:31
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ShadowJKah no, this sandisk class 2 card seems as slow as I'd expect17:33
ShadowJK25 kilobytes/sec or so :)17:34
ShadowJK4k random writes17:34
GAN900blua, FBReader.17:34
bluaThank you, gan.17:35
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ShadowJKhm, that's funny. iozone is claiming it's doing 64k random writes, but iostat shows it as 128k random writes17:53
ShadowJKmight mean that worst case performance is worse than 25 kilobytes/sec on the sandisk class 2 card :)17:53
JartzaI, ozone17:53
ShadowJKIt might be kernel joining together two requests despite iozone requesting synchronous17:56
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: hmm, so your estimation of 6..12h is correct then? :-S18:02
ShadowJKno that was more optimistic18:02
ShadowJKby a factor of 100 or so18:02
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DocScrutinizerumm, 177h18:03
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DocScrutinizerwell, 25kB/s is a plain joke, not even sufficient for audio recording18:05
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DocScrutinizerthat's ... :x ... BAD18:06
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: I really wonder what made my N900 freeze on copying from sd to emmc via mass storage mode, while reading from sd worked, as well as writing to emmc18:08
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DocScrutinizercache messed up?18:09
DocScrutinizeror buffers?18:09
ShadowJKOh it deadlocks sometimes18:09
ShadowJKand all mmc traffic more or less dies18:10
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DocScrutinizerwhen it froze, both the OMAP and even the one core on my laptop were 100% busy on IOwait18:12
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DocScrutinizera rather frightening experience to unplug the N900 to recover18:13
Stskeepsodd question, but how did freerunner deal with mmc access?18:13
DocScrutinizerthe expected massive fs corruption didn't happen though18:13
Stskeepsjust wondering if we genuinely have a bad mmc chip18:13
ShadowJKdunno, it performs better than most stuff i've seen :-)18:14
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: sorry, no expert here18:14
DocScrutinizerit "just worked"18:14
ShadowJKI suspect freerunner wasn't loading it as heavily though?18:14
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DocScrutinizerfor sure not18:15
DocScrutinizerand especially we didn't have 2 concurrent interfaces there, only one uSD on the system18:15
lindi-ShadowJK: DocScrutinizer: what sort of debugging facilities are typically used for kernel debugging on n900?18:15
ShadowJKWell N900 is actually somewhat sensible, N8x0 had one interface and two mmcs :P18:15
DocScrutinizerlindi-: if only I knew a decent answer to this18:16
* ShadowJK vaguely recalls seeing a potential deadlock fix go into 2.6.36 or later maybe18:16
DocScrutinizerlindi-: printk :-P18:16
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DocScrutinizerbut yes, looks like a genuine kernel bug rather than a "bad emmc"18:17
ShadowJKStskeeps, but roughly speaking, copying huge amounts of crap right at boot when other stuff is starting up, while tracker and whatever is  groping around looking at the emerging files, and with the ram (or lack of) that N900 has, I'd pretty much expect it to take forever18:18
ShadowJKespecially with OS running off of mmc18:18
ShadowJKJust imagine every additional stream to or from mmc removes a 0 from the baseline performance :P18:19
ShadowJKa 0 from the end18:19
DocScrutinizerwho the hell would copy large amounts of stuff on boot time?18:19
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DocScrutinizerand then... TRACKER eeeeeeeeeeeek blargh18:21
ShadowJKThe act dead thing or whatever mode N900 does SSU in actually has more benefits than just reducing number of open file handles so that the filesystem doesn't become full :-)18:22
DocScrutinizerDIE tracker DIE18:22
ShadowJKIt also makes sure there's only like 3 or 4 simultaneous things going on18:22
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ShadowJKfirst-boot optification is also done under pretty minimal state :-)18:23
DocScrutinizerisn't it irony that sd/mmc seems is less suited for concurrent access than a HDD with physically moving heads?18:24
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VenemoDocScrutinizer: what about SSDs?18:24
ShadowJKDepends on the SSD :-)18:25
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VenemoI heard there are pretty nice ones18:25
DocScrutinizerthose have smart controllers with huge amounts of buffer ram18:25
ShadowJKYou can roughly divide them into two camps: before and after intel18:25
Venemojust their price is not very nice18:25
ShadowJKthe ram isn't actually used for buffering, you know :-)18:25
VenemoShadowJK: before and after intel? :D18:25
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ShadowJKEverything before intel's x-25 came out was ultraslow in real life use. SLow as in "Why did my computer pause for a whole second, I just wrote a one-line IM?"18:26
Venemointel's ssd is so great then?18:26
ShadowJKand there's of course alot of stock left of the pre-intel era, they still built (and build) new SSDs using old controllers18:27
jacekowskibut only -e and -m18:27
jacekowski-v version is slow18:27
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DocScrutinizerthen there's also the single-level vs multi-level thingy to consider18:28
Venemoso if I ever wanna buy an SSD, I should buy an intel one?18:28
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, latest generation intel MLC outperforms first generation intel SLC pretty much18:28
jacekowskithat's only one worth buying18:28
ShadowJK-v isn't fast, but it isn't slow either :-)18:29
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: but I heard MTBF is some magnitudes higher18:29
DocScrutinizeron MLC18:30
keriodo they have 1tb SSDs for 100€ yet?18:30
DocScrutinizererr lower, means more errors18:30
DocScrutinizerkerio: LOL18:30
keriothey fail then18:30
ShadowJKSee, intel is squeezing the market. First they came in and outperformed everyone else by a factor of over 9000 (srsly), but were more expensive. Then other competitors figured out how to make SSDs that didn't suck, ones there were only quarter or half speed of intel's, instead of being 9000 times slower, and also cheaper, which was nice for consumers. Then intel's second generation bumped up performance, AND was cheaper than the competitors.. And now inte18:31
ShadowJKl is squeezing at the value end with their -v drives :)18:31
ShadowJKkerio, the idea is that you run your OS on the SSD, and put your porn on rotating media18:31
ShadowJKit's not like you view hundreds of randomly selected jpegs per second anyway.18:31
ieatlintintel got beat though18:31
Appiahbut if you had SSD , you COULD18:31
Appiah4 monitors18:32
Appiahscripts just download pics18:32
Appiahputting them on all 4..18:32
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ShadowJKYeah there are SSDs that perform better than intel's now18:32
keriodownloaded pr0n? wtf18:32
keriopr0n is in the cloud, noobs18:32
Appiahwell some like to go old school18:33
kerioso get VHSes18:33
ieatlintfusion io eliminated the bottleneck of the controller intended for hdds and went with a specially designed controller.. but it suffers from proprietary costs and software18:33
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crashanddie_People are stupid18:39
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crashanddie_"We've finished collecting money for the gift for <some colleague>'s twins. Feel free to recommend gift ideas." "OK, what is our budget?" "We don't feel it is necessary to disclose that information."18:40
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ShadowJKYeah, suggest twin hookers18:41
Lynourecrashanddie_: not necessarily stupid, possibly evil.18:41
Lynourecrashanddie_: one reason not to disclose is to keep part of the money.18:41
crashanddie_No, I just suggested two BMW R1200GS Adventure bikes -- with stabilisers.18:43
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Venemois it possible to read the g_debug output of Hildon-Desktop somehow?18:49
luke-jr_wrong question18:49
luke-jr_of course it's *possible*…18:50
Venemoluke-jr_: okay, I'll refine the question then. :)18:50
Venemoluke-jr_: how can I read the g_debug output of Hildon-Desktop?18:50
luke-jr_I think the real question is, how difficult is it? :P18:50
StskeepsVenemo: install syslog18:50
togglescrashanddie_: so i saw one parked outside the cafe i had lunch in today, explain the big scoop under the lights..18:51
toggleslooks like a great way to shovel dirt/water into the donk18:51
crashanddie_oh, the beemer?18:51
togglesBMW R1200GS18:51
dnearyStskeeps, Have you ever seen this happen before: I've packaged a hello, world Hildon app as an armel .deb in Scratchbox, copied the package over to my N900, and when I select it, I get the message "Unable to install 'hello'.\nIncompatible application package."18:51
VenemoStskeeps: thanks18:51
crashanddie_toggles, yeah, it is a beast18:51
Stskeepsdneary: Section: user/ missing or something18:52
VenemoStskeeps: although I'm not familiar enough with it... could you please help?18:52
dnearyh-a-m needs user/?18:52
crashanddie_toggles, definitely not for everyone, I drove one a couple times -- the torque is massive, and it really feels robust and everything18:52
crashanddie_toggles, but I don't think I'll get one, after all.18:52
togglescrashanddie_: you're not onswering my question.18:52
crashanddie_you asked a question?18:52
togglesnever mind.18:53
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crashanddie_toggles, oh, the eagle beak?18:53
crashanddie_I'm guessing it's so that you can use it to hunt dear, or something18:53
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togglesi think it's purpose is to shovel water/dirt into the donk. bad idea18:54
infobotcrashanddie_ meant: I'm guessing it's so that you can use it to hunt deer, or something18:54
crashanddie_that or maybe some engineering thing that reduces airdrag/vibrations we don't understand?18:54
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VenemoStskeeps: okay, installed syslogd. I also found some docs on the net about it, but I'm still not sure what to do with it18:55
Stskeepsdneary: for manual installed debs, yes18:55
StskeepsVenemo: /var/log/messages and /var/log/syslog18:56
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VenemoStskeeps: those files will contain what I'm looking for?18:57
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VenemoStskeeps: /var/log/messages is not present and /var/log/syslog does not contain what I'm looking for19:00
dneary_Stskeeps, You were right. Adding the right Section in debian/control did the trick19:01
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dneary_OK... application installed on N900 & works. Cool!19:03
dneary_Still doesn't appear in the application list - I guess I need an icon19:03
DocScrutinizerdneary_: start from xterm for a first test?19:05
VenemoStskeeps: currently it only seems to display messages from the kernel and a few other processes19:05
DocScrutinizerVenemo: a wild guess: enable debugging output in hildon desktop , and/or rise debug verbosity?19:07
VenemoDocScrutinizer: yeah, but how do I do that?19:07
dneary_DocScrutinizer: sure - long done19:08
dneary_Allow me to explain - I am running through the beginner developer docs for Maemo19:08
dneary_As if I were a beginner19:08
dneary_And in the "Getting started" page, there was no link to anything resembling "compiling & packaging" - so I put that in19:09
dneary_And from the packaging page, there was no info on testing & deploying - so I'm linking to that19:09
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dneary_And now I'm thinking for basic fit & finish (icon, desktop file, etc) the documentation isn't quite as clear as it could be19:10
GAN900dneary_, cool.19:10
dnearyGAN900, I'm also switching between 2 laptops regularly :)19:10
dnearyGAN900, So - if you were to explain to someone who didn't know, how would you explain the minimum steps to follow?19:12
VenemoStskeeps / luke-jr: will the line 'hildon-desktop /var/log/hildon.log' in /etc/syslog.conf do the trick?19:13
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Venemoit doesn't work...19:15
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Venemocould anyone help me please?19:19
GAN900dneary, didn't know what?19:19
DocScrutinizer51less +/thermal /etc/sysinfod.conf o.O19:19
dnearyGAN900, the minimum steps to follow (once you have a package) to have an icon launcher in the application list19:19
GAN900Ah, don't ask me. :P19:20
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GAN900I've never put anything in the application list in my life.19:20
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GAN900Get your icon, get your .desktop, make sure you're interacting with libosso OK.19:21
DocScrutinizer51Venemo: everything not mentioned explicitly in syslog.conf will show up in default desination (i.e. var/log/syslog) - adding a line like your suggestion won't make any nonexisting logger output appear magically19:21
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VenemoDocScrutinizer51: so how do I make a new logger output for hildon-desktop?19:22
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DocScrutinizer51you need to check source or docs of HD to find how to enable logging19:23
DocScrutinizer51quite likely syslog.conf isn't involved19:23
VenemoDocScrutinizer51: well, HD simply uses g_debug to print stuff. I simply would like to have a way to see what it is printing19:24
DocScrutinizer51as it is just for distributing input from logger() calls to different destinations19:24
DocScrutinizer51sorry I have nfc bout g_debug19:24
DocScrutinizer51if it's using logger() then the output should show up in syslog19:25
VenemoDocScrutinizer51: well the problem is, me neither. Stskeeps suggested syslogd for it19:25
DocScrutinizer51if it's using XprintX() then odds are this will stow up on stdout/stderr19:26
VenemoDocScrutinizer51: well, I guess it does19:27
DocScrutinizer51plus I'd expect g_debug is conditional depending on some flag or env var or gconf key or whatever19:27
VenemoDocScrutinizer51: do you know how to read that?19:28
VenemoDocScrutinizer51: yes19:28
DocScrutinizer51start hildon esktop from a console/xterm and you'll see the prints there19:28
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DocScrutinizer51or do a 'hildonfdesktop | logger' in the startup script19:29
DocScrutinizer51to pipe stdout to logger to syslog19:29
DocScrutinizer51sorry but without looking at it all I can tell is mere handwaving19:30
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VenemoDocScrutinizer51: no problem, I'm glad you have an idea19:31
VenemoDocScrutinizer51: I guess I can't simply start it from console19:32
* pahartik wonders about whether "systemui" can be killed (for restart) without whole system going down19:32
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DocScrutinizer51afaik it's started from dsme, so killing it will restart19:32
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VenemoDocScrutinizer51: hm, easier than I thought... it is started with Upstart19:34
VenemoDocScrutinizer51: okay, I'll be afk for some time... brb19:34
DocScrutinizer51you need to grep /etc for hildon-sektop, and find+fix the place where it's sttarted19:34
DocScrutinizer51yep, upstart. but probably by dsmetool19:35
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DocScrutinizer51Venemo: /etc/X11/ -c 3 -T 180 -m -17 -t /usr/bin/hildon-desktop19:40
DocScrutinizer51plus another few19:41
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DocScrutinizer  first hit: >>...log_ignore_debug_handler, main): Disable g_debug output by default. ...<<20:00
DocScrutinizer   It can be enabled via --enable-debug. Fixes: NB#10330420:01
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DocScrutinizerVenemo: HTH20:02
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DocScrutinizerhmm, that's src/hildon-home.c though20:05
MohammadAG51what's the best video container?20:05
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MohammadAG51I want to output a movie from a project, youtube doesn't support ogv apparently20:05
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DocScrutinizerluke-jr_: was that you who claimed "anything using glib is broken by design" ? I tend to agree20:14
Stskeepsanything using gobject, for sure..20:15
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luke-jr_DocScrutinizer: could be, though I doubt those exact words20:18
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VenemoDocScrutinizer: re20:19
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DocScrutinizerVenemo: I dug into glib until I found def of g_debug macro (it's g_log), and it seems it's actually printing unconditionally to stdout aiui20:21
VenemoDocScrutinizer: I changed the script to '/usr/sbin/dsmetool -c 3 -T 180 -m -17 -t '/usr/bin/hildon-desktop | logger''20:22
DocScrutinizerdoes it work at all?20:22
VenemoDocScrutinizer: what do you mean?20:22
DocScrutinizerdoes it start HD, and does some logs show up in syslog?20:23
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VenemoDocScrutinizer: after issuing 'killall hildon-desktop', it is restarted automatically... but I still don't see any logs20:23
VenemoDocScrutinizer: that syslog.conf line I talked about earlier is also there20:24
DocScrutinizerkillall won't help as this is handled inside dsme20:24
VenemoDocScrutinizer: reboot?20:24
DocScrutinizeryou need to reboot or at least restart the service to put your changes to effect20:24
VenemoDocScrutinizer: it is not possible to restart the service20:24
DocScrutinizerI suggest you add a "-t MyTag" to logger20:24
DocScrutinizerVenemo: I found out as much, yes :-D20:25
VenemoDocScrutinizer: :)20:25
VenemoDocScrutinizer: what does that do?20:25
DocScrutinizer-t tag   Mark every line in the log with the specified tag.20:25
Venemois this okay? /usr/sbin/dsmetool -c 3 -T 180 -m -17 -t '/usr/bin/hildon-desktop | logger -t mytag'20:26
DocScrutinizerif dsmetool knows how to handle such shell style parameters20:26
DocScrutinizerfor -t20:26
Venemohm, is there a chance it doesn't?20:26
DocScrutinizerthat's why I asked if it works at all20:27
Venemohow can I check if it does?20:27
DocScrutinizerotherwise you'd probably need a script doing the real cmd, and just invoke that script from dsmetool, without any parameters etc20:27
Venemookay, but how can I check whether it works or not?20:29
DocScrutinizersorry, got no better idea than try&error20:29
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DocScrutinizerreplace the command string by "date|logger" :-P20:29
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DocScrutinizeror 'echo foobarboo | logger'20:30
DocScrutinizerobviously this won't launch HD :-D20:30
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DocScrutinizerbut will show if it works - BEWARE, dsme might bootloop as that cmd sequence quitsvery fast20:31
Venemothis: /usr/sbin/dsmetool -c 3 -T 180 -m -17 -t 'echo blahblah | logger' made my device reboot...'20:31
DocScrutinizercheck dsmetool --help20:32
DocScrutinizerchange -t to something less aggressive20:32
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Venemobut the device booted anyways, so I guess it could handle it20:32
DocScrutinizerit might as well pass ' | logger -t mytag' to hildon-desktop as argv[1]20:33
DocScrutinizerthe problem is "|" is a shell verb20:33
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DocScrutinizerexec?e probably won't know how to handle it20:34
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VenemoI left that command in the script before the reboot... and since it actually booted, I guess it worked20:34
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DocScrutinizerso the solutions probably is -t '/bin/sh -c \'/usr/bin/hildon-desktop | logger -t mytag\''20:36
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Venemohm, there is still no logs from HD20:36
DocScrutinizeryes, because the pipe wasn't handled by dsme like it would've been by a shell20:37
DocScrutinizerMy uneducated guess20:37
Venemothere is bunch of other logs that appeared now, btw...20:38
DocScrutinizeruse ">/path/to/MyLogfile" instead of " | logger"20:38
Venemowill do20:39
Venemodoes this look okay? /usr/sbin/dsmetool -c 3 -T 180 -m -17 -t '/usr/bin/hildon-desktop > /var/log/hildon.log'20:40
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DocScrutinizershould - but after all we should make sure we're hammering the right line at all, so just commenting it out will show if it's the line startiing hildon-desktop20:44
VenemoDocScrutinizer: this didn't work either... :(20:45
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DocScrutinizerthen, why use dsmetool at all, kick it out as you don't bother about auto-respawning of hildon-desktop20:45
DocScrutinizerjust replace it by a simple "/usr/bin/hildon-desktop > /var/log/hildon.log" line20:46
Venemowithout the dsmetool?20:46
Venemoisn't it dangerous?20:46
DocScrutinizerdsmetool is just restarting the HD process whenever you do a killall, and eventually even may reboot20:46
DocScrutinizernah, not really dangerous20:47
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Venemookay, trying20:47
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slonopotamusDocScrutinizer: what's wrong with glib?20:48
DocScrutinizer51it starts with a 'g'20:48
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slonopotamusgcc also starts with g20:49
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VenemoDocScrutinizer: the log file is still empty20:50
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DocScrutinizer51hmm, but it got created?20:50
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VenemoI created it by hand20:51
Venemoshouldn't I have done that?20:51
DocScrutinizer51you don't know if your line got correctly executed otherwise20:52
Venemoare you sure this is the line where hildon-desktop is started?20:53
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DocScrutinizer51no, I mentioned abov we should check this first20:54
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Venemowell, it no longer respawns after a killall20:55
Venemoso this is gotta be it20:55
Venemothe UI looks... interesting :D20:56
DocScrutinizer51redirect stderr too20:56
Venemohow can I do that?20:56
DocScrutinizer51then check hildon-desktop how to enable debug output. odds are it's somehow disabled20:57
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DocScrutinizer51or simply killall hildon-desktop, then restart it from a ssh session20:58
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Venemohmm... :) good idea20:58
SpeedEvilhildon-desktop is open-source IIRC20:58
VenemoSpeedEvil: we know20:58
SpeedEvilFair enough.20:59
VenemoSpeedEvil: I found some g_debug() calls in its source code20:59
VenemoSpeedEvil: but I'd like to see those debug lines in runtime20:59
DocScrutinizer51but I got no idea what, when, and how it is logging for g_debug20:59
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DocScrutinizer51s/how/where to21:01
VenemoI started hildon-desktop in an SSH session21:01
VenemoI see some errors, but not the messages I'd like to see21:02
VenemoDocScrutinizer51: --enable-debug doesn't do any good either21:02
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Venemobut from the errors that appear, I think I finally found something really interesting21:03
DocScrutinizer51yes, hildon-desktop seems has no --enable-debug option21:04
Venemoluke-jr: can you confirm this?21:04
DocScrutinizer51that's hildon-home21:04
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dnearyAnyone here know what each of the fields in a .desktop file means?21:06
Venemodneary: there is some doc in the wiki about it21:06
dnearyVenemo, Not great, though21:06
Venemodneary: in specific, which field are you interested in?21:06
dnearyIf you're a first time developer, you get to the Packaging page21:07
dnearyThen Packaging/Guidelines21:07
dnearyVenemo, I don't know what I want - I just know I want to have my app install properly in the application menu21:07
dnearyVenemo, I'm on [[Packaging#Maemo-specific packaging information]] in the wiki21:08
DocScrutinizer51well, version is NOT the app's version. At least so much for now :-)21:08
DocScrutinizer51it's the .desktop file syntax version21:09
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Venemodneary: here is a working example:
dnearyVenemo, I have created a hello.install file in debian/ which contains:21:09
dnearyhello.desktop usr/share/applications/hildon21:09
dnearyVenemo, And I've added an XB-Maemo-Icon-26 field to debian/control with a uuencoded logo21:09
Venemodneary: what's the issue?21:10
dnearyVenemo: The icon21:10
timeless_mbpdneary:  what resolution/dimensions are you using for your icon?21:10
dnearyDo I need to package up a png (and how do I get it to install in the right place) or is the XB-Maemo-Icon field sufficient?21:10
timeless_mbpthe icon on n8x0 was 26x26, but the icon for the n900 isn't that dimension21:10
timeless_mbpthe xb-maemo-icon is for display an HAM21:11
infobottimeless_mbp meant: the xb-maemo-icon is for display in HAM21:11
timeless_mbpyou need something in your .desktop  for the icon that appears in the launcher21:11
dnearyI'm assuming I need to package it up, install it in the right place, and include a filename root in the Icon: field of the .desktop file21:11
dnearyBut the docs in the Packaging wiki page aren't really clear on that21:11
timeless_mbpdneary: generally the best approach is to look at someone else's package :)21:12
Venemodneary: the icon in the app menu or the icon in the app mnager?21:12
dnearytimeless_mbp, This is why I'm going through the getting started docs :)21:12
dnearytimeless_mbp, Let's see if we can't make the docs better21:12
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dnearyVenemo, I would like a hello, world application with an icon in the applications menu21:12
timeless_mbp /usr/share/icons/hicolor/{48x48,scalable,32x32}/hildon/fmms.png21:13
Venemodneary: /usr/share/pixmaps did the trick for me21:13
dnearyVenemo, I'm not (at this point) concerned about the application manager (because for the moment I'm still testing my app locally & haven't looked into extras-devel)21:13
timeless_mbpthat's all fmms uses21:13
timeless_mbpand it works21:13
dnearytimeless_mbp, Presumably I need to do something to to install the DATA files correctly?21:14
timeless_mbpdneary: um, is a build issue21:14
Venemodneary: for Sticky Notes, I put the icon into /usr/share/pixmaps... and it also works for the app menu :)21:14
timeless_mbpI don't use automake :)21:14
dnearyOr is it in debian/hello.install?21:14
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timeless_mbphello.install should work21:14
dnearyVenemo, How do you do that?21:14
dneary(put the icon in /usr/share/pixmaps)21:14
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timeless_mbpdneary:  the .install file is the key here21:15
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timeless_mbpit just needs a valid path to where the file is in your build tree21:15
timeless_mbpand a path to where oyu want it to go21:15
dnearytimeless_mbp, As an autotools guy, I can't help but wonder whether is not a better solution21:15
timeless_mbpe.g. hello.png /usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/hildon/21:15
timeless_mbpdneary: *shrug*21:16
dnearytimeless_mbp, Will that line in the install get through dh_buildpackage?21:16
* timeless_mbp shrugs21:16
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* timeless_mbp uses dpkg or something21:16
timeless_mbpprobably not21:16
timeless_mbpman dh_buildpackage? :)21:16
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dnearytimeless_mbp, Another thing I'm not clear on21:17
Venemodneary: I PM'd you21:17
timeless_mbpDocScrutinizer:  at this point he has issues more w/ dh_* than w/ .desktop21:17
timeless_mbpdneary:  it's dinner time.21:17
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dnearyIs it always "application.install" or did I correctly interpret that to mean "s/application/your packagename"?21:18
DocScrutinizertimeless: sorry, I'm ust so fast with digging up proper replies21:18
dnearyThe filename, that is?21:18
DocScrutinizerdneary: yes, the file can have basically arbitrary name21:18
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dnearyOK - let's see...21:19
DocScrutinizeras long as HAM is concerned, and HFM21:19
dnearyI copied (48x48 PNG) hello.png into the source directory, ran dpkg-buildpackage21:19
dnearyAnd get a fatal error in dpkg-source: "cannot represent change to hello.png: binary file contents have changed"21:20
dnearyI don't understand what this means21:20
dnearyShould I make distclean & try again?21:20
Venemodneary: do you have an SVN client?21:20
Venemodneary: if you do, checkout a working app, and see how it does this21:21
dnearyVenemo, Yes, but this is a local from-scratch package (just to test the docs)21:21
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dnearyAh - I see what you are getting at21:21
Venemodneary: the docs are crap21:21
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dnearyThat's what I'm here for :)21:22
dnearyI had fixed the docs up to "making your first .deb"21:22
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Venemoseems that noone has cared to review it in a long time :)21:22
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dnearynow I want to get them better up to "getting your app onto extras-testing"21:22
dnearyOK - I'll work on this tomorrow (and actually improving the docs).21:23
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VenemoDocScrutinizer: thanks for your help :)21:30
VenemoDocScrutinizer: I didn't manage to find out how to enable debug output, but from the few error messages I saw, I was able to determine what the error was :)21:31
VenemoDocScrutinizer: so again, thank you very-very much :)21:31
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RST38hNokia Launchpad is now free to join21:57
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BCMMRST38h: and what is it?21:59
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Goliath23I wrote a homescreenwidget using harald fernengels adaptor. now when I show the settings dialog, all "mousePressEvents" to the settingsdialog (QDialog) are eaten by underlying homescreenwidgets (no matter if they are mine or others) .. as long as there's no homescreen widget beneath the location I tap, everything is fine22:08
* pahartik found out that "killall -HUP systemui" solves "unlock delay" issue without shutdown22:08
Goliath23for the n900 that is ^22:08
VenemoGoliath23: interesting issue22:09
VenemoGoliath23: ask this on #qt-maemo22:09
Goliath23Venemo: ah, didn't know that channel! see you there :)22:10
VenemoGoliath23: k :)22:10
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ArgoHello all. I have been having a problem with Pidgin 2.7.3 for maemo4 and I was wondering if someone could help me?22:16
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togglesnot funny Doc.22:58
togglesyes.. trying to get the damn sdk installed... wtf happened to it? code rot?22:58
mcunixwhere I download ubuntu mobile 9.04?22:59
slonopotamusvi has two modes, in one it beeps and in second one it corrupts everything22:59
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togglesMohammadAG: thanks..
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BCMMslonopotamus: ah, but i take a perverse pleasure in using things that confuse other people23:08
BCMMfor example, on my desktop, every screen corner is rigged to do something confusing23:08
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DocScrutinizer51I found my usual things are more than confusing to exactly everybody, so no need to take special care23:29
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DocScrutinizer51if that's not enough, I start telling about my moods23:29
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* slonopotamus removed taskbar from his desktop completely and uses hotkeys to switch between apps. veeery confusing for other people :)23:30
* joga never had a taskbar to begin with23:31
mgedminI replaced my taskbar (gnome-panel) with docky, now I'm confused myself23:31
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slonopotamusjoga: almost all DEs have it in default configuration23:31
mgedminI end up with many xterm windows in a workspace, since I don't see the ones I'd already opened23:31
jogaslonopotamus, I don't have a DE :)23:32
slonopotamusjoga: consolier?23:32
slonopotamustext mode forever?23:32
slonopotamusporn via libcaca and other fancy stuff :)23:33
sp3000timeless_mbp: .browser could be interesting23:33
jogaslonopotamus, I do have a window manager but do everything except browsing from command line23:33
timeless_mbpsp3000:  there's a bug, you could ask directly :)23:33
jogaor, everything sensible23:33
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slonopotamuserr... second thingie from the right is a pile of shit?23:35
slonopotamusleft to the bomb23:35
sp3000and right of the pee and friends, yes23:37
sp3000at some point you may notice a theme there23:38
sp3000timeless_mbp: well it can't be respui=false, that doesn't really draw pages23:38
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malloc64Does anyone know where to find the desktop SDK virtual image?23:47
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ZogGDocScrutinizer, hey23:53
malloc64who, me?23:54
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