IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2010-09-20

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TiagoTiagoI don't think the N73 can do bluetooth PAN00:00
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koffeekanoh man im trying to install tear on my 770 with os2007he, but every time i apt-get packages the file explorer wont open afterwards and the os crashes and will not boot back up00:28
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johnsqout of space00:29
koffeekanwow really?  the internal flash is that small?00:29
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johnsqkoffeekan: a possible error, you need to check it00:30
koffeekanhow do i check it if the thing wont boot?00:30
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koffeekanso i guess installing to mmc would take care of this issue ?00:31
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koffeekanis there a ertain memory card that would work the best for installing the os to?00:32
johnsqtest it, you can look if the file explorer shows the free space, i don't know where it is on the 77000:32
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johnsqor if terminal -> df -h works00:33
koffeekani cant open file explorer because it dosent even boot up at all, nokia screen, tries to boot, black flash, nokia screen, etc00:33
koffeekanw/e im just going to get a fatty 2gig card and install the os to it00:34
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Tuco_mariahey01:09
Tuco_mariawhen will pr 1.3 be available?01:09
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BugBlauw~pr1.301:10
infobotpr1.3 is, like, a ban'able subject now.....01:10
Tuco_mariaoh01:10
Tuco_mariathats bad news01:11
BugBlauwhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=4890101:12
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Tuco_mariadoes underclocking to 250Mhz improve battery duration?01:15
johnxonly in very specific workloads01:16
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luke-jrTuco_maria: also, 250 MHz can cause problems01:16
Tuco_mariaso, should i stick with the stock clock speed of 600 Mhz?01:16
luke-jr500 is better01:17
luke-jr600 is overclocked01:17
luke-jrit won't last a year at 60001:17
luke-jrwhy not just let cpufreq/Linux handle it dynamically?01:17
johnxkeep in mind that there isn't one 'stock' clock speed. by default it scales over a range of clock speeds01:17
luke-jrI run Gentoo and my N900 uses 600 MHz less than 10% of the time01:17
sandstormwon't last a year at 600mhz? wow..01:18
johnxif it's running constantly at 600MHz 24/701:18
luke-jra large majortiy fo the time, it's idle01:18
sandstormvery interesting news for me, I'd expected more01:19
sandstormcan you run gentoo on n900 with the phone capabilities?01:19
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Tuco_mariathe motorola milestone uses the same silicon as the n900, and it runs at 600 mhz01:20
luke-jrsandstorm: depends what you call phone capaibilities01:20
luke-jrsandstorm: I have data working.01:20
luke-jrand data is all the service I have to test with01:21
luke-jrTuco_maria:  not 24/701:21
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sandstormphone calls, smses and other telecommunications stuff you know. are there proper applicatons on gentoo ?01:21
luke-jrsandstorm: there's KDE...01:21
keriolol01:21
luke-jrsandstorm: for voice/SMS, you'll have to ask someone else though01:21
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luke-jrI don't have those (useless) services01:21
sandstorm:P01:22
sandstormcan you make phone calls with KDE ?01:22
* kerio has vivid memories of running gnome and kde on a machine with 384MBs of ram01:22
sandstormand receive them01:22
sandstormand boot your SIM card? authenticate yourself? connect to the GSM provider? with gentoo ?01:22
Tuco_mariai like the hildon interface, more than kde or gnome01:23
sandstormif it is somehow possible, I, myself a gentoo user as well.01:23
sandstormon my laptop though01:24
sandstormand its my favourite distro btw.01:24
DocScrutinizerTuco_maria: stock kernel clocks all available speeds from 250 to 600, depending on rather reasonable parameter evaluation, to get the best of performance and battery savings in all common usage profiles01:24
Tuco_mariaso, it`s impossible to have better battery times?01:25
johnxnot impossible01:25
johnxyou could do some research with powertop01:25
johnxfind out how long your phone spends in each power state01:26
DocScrutinizerno, it's simple to have great battery standby times, by simply using proper designed software that doesn't run circles for nothing01:26
johnxthen try and write a better algorithm for scaling the CPU up and down depending on the software your run01:26
kerioDocScrutinizer: why do you hate pulseaudio and tracker, DocScrutinizer?01:26
kerio;)01:27
DocScrutinizerjohnx: eh?01:27
johnxDocScrutinizer, elaborate01:27
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Tuco_mariai use n900 mostly to browse the web and send/receive sms, ocasiomally some voice calls01:28
DocScrutinizerjohnx: do you really think that's a appropriate task for somebody asking if downclocking CPU to 250 saves battery?01:28
johnxDocScrutinizer, I'm trying to get across how much Nokia has already optimized this. It's not like they just forgot that running the CPU at a slower speed would save battery01:28
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DocScrutinizerTuco_maria: if you have battery standby time issues, it's quite usualy caused by some rogue software, or a bug somewhere. Try to find which processes keep the CPU running, or do large amounts of internet traffic (both eating battery like mad)01:30
Tuco_mariathe only software i`ve installed are firefox, fmms, angry birds and the plastic theme01:31
Tuco_mariamaybe one of the is buggy01:31
TiagoTiago_i think i read somewhere someone complaining that Frefox stays running  after you close it01:31
DocScrutinizerTuco_maria: for some reference, to give you an idea: my battery was at 60% after 24h of online via WLAN, with IRC by xchat on 8 chan, and a script cosntantly running and displaying my real battery status every 15s01:32
Tuco_mariai would be happy with that, mine is lasting about one day01:33
DocScrutinizerTuco_maria: first ssh to the device, and run htop. See if any process (except htop itself :-D ) is constantly eating CPU time01:33
Tuco_mariaok01:34
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DocScrutinizerthen run powertop and make sure your cpu is mostly idle, see http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_software_power_management#Powertop01:36
sandstormI don't have powertop installed as default, what may I do for that?01:36
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sandstormand I don't know why it is not installed as default btw.01:37
DocScrutinizerfind it in extras-devel, or tools repo01:37
DocScrutinizerit isn't installed by default01:37
sandstormhmm01:37
johnxit should also give you a more clear idea of how the N900 does power saving, in terms of not just 'under'-clocking, but also actually suspending the CPU and turning it back on before the next timer expires01:39
johnxs/it/powertop01:39
TiagoTiago_the substitution thing seems to not be working anymore01:40
Tuco_mariaso, overclocking it wouldnt decrease battery life as well right?01:40
DocScrutinizerhttp://maemo.org/packages/view/powertop/01:40
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DocScrutinizerit will. Not only battery standby time, but also CPU livetime01:41
DocScrutinizerlife*01:41
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DocScrutinizeroverclocking is a really really bad idea, if you don't know *exactly* what and why you're doing01:42
johnxTuco_maria, some people have claimed to not lose too much battery life when allowing a higher 'maximum' clock speed, but in my case I don't feel like it's worth the risk01:42
DocScrutinizeron a system devel level of understanding01:42
Tuco_mariai will leave it as it is then01:43
TiagoTiago_and even knowing enough, there is still the risk the processor you got was one with the lowest score and will fry much earlier than others01:44
johnxTuco_maria, I think that's smart :)01:44
TiagoTiago_was among the ones*01:45
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DocScrutinizerTuco_maria: look, if TI and Nokia would have seen any benefit in allowing it, they'd have a config option in settings, like "long standby"<->"super fast execution"01:46
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Tuco_mariamaybe you are right...01:46
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TiagoTiago_wait, we can't trust Nokia 100% on their decisions, there are many thigns people spot that Nokia didn't put enough work on01:47
DocScrutinizeryayaya01:47
johnxin terms of power saving stuff, I tend to trust Nokia01:47
DocScrutinizerI even more tend to trust TI01:48
johnxTiagoTiago_, have you read any of their white papers or watched one of their presentations on 'race to idle'?01:48
johnxreally quite cool stuff01:48
TiagoTiago_not really01:48
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TiagoTiago_i mean, i have not read it01:50
TiagoTiago_is it on Youtube?01:50
* johnx digs it up01:50
DocScrutinizerand in all their whitepapers about OMAP and SmartReflex, Ti nowhere mentions any need for user/manufacturer to make a tradeoff between execution speed and power consumption. It's always like "this technology allows fastest execution speeds on lowest possible power consumption", no either / or01:50
TiagoTiago_thanx01:50
sandstormDocScrutinizer: thank you very much for info and link01:51
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TiagoTiago_isn't SmartReflex turned off? I remember i once had a program for setting  max clock speed that had  a checkbox ofr SR that was unmarked, and when i marked it it made the device crashj01:51
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johnxTiagoTiago_, http://free-electrons.com/blog/fosdem-2009-videos/ , advanced power management for omap301:52
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago_: SmartReflex is partially turned off, due to some hw flaw which causes instabilities01:52
johnxclick the 'video' link below it01:52
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sandstormso enabling SmartReflex fully can cause instability?01:53
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TiagoTiago_why did they let hardware with such a flaw be released as a finished product?01:53
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago_: to be more specific, I think one particular function detail of the bunch of measures sailing under "SmartReflex" was disabled01:53
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DocScrutinizersandstorm: yes01:54
DocScrutinizerpossibly even hw damage01:54
sandstormthere's a tweak going around on the net echoing 1s to two configuration settings to enable SmartReflex, so you dont suggest that?01:54
johnxTiagoTiago_, happens all the time in the real world01:54
TiagoTiago_Who's fault is the hardware has that flaw?01:54
DocScrutinizersandstorm: no, I don't suggest that01:54
johnxdunno. could be the board Nokia designed or the chip from Ti, or the core from ARM for all I know01:55
DocScrutinizersandstorm: there's been reasons why it's been disabled01:55
TiagoTiago_the audio int hat video is horrible,, way too much echo and dist5ortion, very hard to understand anything :(01:55
johnxTiagoTiago_, I think there might be a summary of the talk somewhere01:55
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sandstormin addition, there are tweaks to make swappiness value 15 or 30 other than 100(default), briefly; what do you say about this thread: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=6167901:56
johnxhttp://lwn.net/Articles/318727/ then scroll down to 'power management in nokia's next maemo device'01:56
TiagoTiago_do you think that swappolube thing is safe?01:56
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago_: there's flaws in (virtually) every hardware01:56
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago_: if it's causing hw damages, then odds are it had been noticed way too late01:57
DocScrutinizerwell, for instabilities same applies01:57
TiagoTiago_did NOkia get a discount on the flawed chips?01:58
johnxTiagoTiago_, sandstorm, a much more interesting discussion on swappiness: http://kerneltrap.org/node/300001:58
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DocScrutinizerI guess it's not the chips that are flawed, but the layout or hw design01:58
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago_: if you're really intersted... I may elaborate01:58
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TiagoTiago_sure01:59
DocScrutinizerall the following : disclaimer: AIUI & AFAIK01:59
TiagoTiago_what does AIUI stands for?01:59
johnx~aiui02:00
infoboti heard aiui is As I Understand It02:00
TiagoTiago_IF the N900 was a car, would it be recalled due to that flaw?02:00
TiagoTiago_i see02:00
DocScrutinizerThe smartreflex bit that's been disabled is doing automatic switching of core voltage, to minimize power drop in the SoC02:00
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TiagoTiago_~SoC02:00
infobotwell, soc is System On Chip - many embedded cpus include a variety of peripherals as well which makes them more than just a CPU.02:00
TiagoTiago_hm02:01
DocScrutinizernow the regulators that do that voltage regulation are in GAIA chip02:01
DocScrutinizerthe power rails go to OMAP SoC02:01
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sandstorm~gaia02:01
DocScrutinizerthe voltages there are changing very fast sometimes02:01
DocScrutinizertwl4030 GAIA OMAP companion chip with power management and otter supplementary functions like audio, keyboard etc02:02
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DocScrutinizernow if the traces running from GAIA to SoC are too long, or have too sharp bends, or some capacitor there doesn't exactly meet the specs, or whatever...02:03
lcukso this smartreflex is uber beardy type folks optimisations02:03
lcukkinda like taking the mirrors off your car to make it more streamlined?02:03
DocScrutinizerodds are the voltage can't be regulated exactly and fast enough02:03
johnxlcuk, as is all modern mobile power management stuff02:03
lcukin a way yes02:04
DocScrutinizerso CPU is operating on wrong voltage for a few milisecons, during clock speed transitions02:04
lcukbut if we have coped for this long with out it etc02:04
johnxlcuk, eh? really? you're against better power management?02:04
johnxsrsly?02:04
lcuknot at all02:04
lcukbut i remember reading that bug report and that it did not work for everyone and caused instability when people turned it on02:05
lcukso i just didnt go further down that particular path02:05
johnxyeah, it's called 'the bleeding edge'02:05
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johnxnext time they'll get it right and it'll save us another 1%02:05
lcukof course!02:05
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DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago_: so when eventually it became apparent the dynamic core voltage regulation caused such problems, maybe even defects in SoC, it was best decision to disable it and live with that 1% shorter standby time this will cause02:06
TiagoTiago_a kinda offtopic question that i've just reembered, would the speeds achived by waving the N900 fast with your hand be enough to affect the signals received due to doppler?02:07
TiagoTiago_I see02:07
johnxno02:07
lcukTiagoTiago_, at the first linuxtag event I went to with some folks02:07
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johnxyour hands don't move at a significant fraction of c02:07
lcukwe were walking around and swinging our n810s around02:07
lcukto get gps02:07
lcuklogging about 80mph02:07
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago_: yes - but only for GPS.02:07
TiagoTiago_lol02:07
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago_: there are a lot of other functions all labeled SmartReflex, that are not related to dynamic core voltage, and those can't be switched off by this sysnode writing 002:07
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago_: that's how it works02:07
sandstormcan I please get your advices about these tweaks: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=815333&postcount=5402:08
lcukno sandstorm02:08
lcukgo and read the swappolube thread :P02:08
lcukthey have the same things in i think02:08
sandstormletme check02:08
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DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago_: once again, all this isn't backed up by any insider knowledge, but results from mere deduction from the known facts02:09
TiagoTiago_would you consider the stuff the swapplube does to be safe?02:09
TiagoTiago_i see02:09
johnxsandstorm, I posted a link earlier about swappiness. please check read through it first. it's not nearly as clear-cut as you might think02:09
nox-moin02:10
sandstormah yes they are the same but I had not seen that swappolube thread before I read those tweaks on another thread.02:10
sandstormjohnx: I've read the introduction but not the e-mails, it will take some time :)02:11
johnxbasically, what it comes down to is that different people want different behavior out of the linux VM subsystem02:11
johnxchanging swappiness is totally safe, but it might not do what you want it to02:12
johnxalso: it's not AI. it can't guess what you want to keep in memory at all costs and what you wish wasn't cached02:12
TiagoTiago_what about the other tweaks the swappolube thing does?02:12
lcuksandstorm, the swappolube package pulls together a few of these tweaks02:12
sandstormI just want all the applications reside in RAM until its critically full, is not that rational ?02:12
SpeedEvilno.02:12
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lcukinto a nicer reinstallable, and hence reproducable02:13
lcukpackage02:13
lcuk:)02:13
SpeedEvilsandstorm: It assumes that the applications are written so that the working setr can always fit in RAM.02:13
sandstormcan you enlighten me with that ?02:13
johnxsandstorm, I know that LKML thread is long, but I think it might really help you understand the situation better than we could explain it02:13
GeneralAntillesGentle reminder to everyone to vote if you're eligible.02:13
SpeedEvilsandstorm: Plus - there are bits of code that are run once and never used again.02:13
lcuksandstorm, because application allocations and deallocations are sometimes silly02:13
sandstormjohnx: I will read it tomorrow :)02:14
lcukand some apps like to grab 50mb for something used rarely02:14
johnxsandstorm, then I'll answer questions about swappiness tomorrow ;)02:14
sandstormah allright02:14
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: post link! :-D02:14
GeneralAntilleshttp://maemo.org/vote/02:14
sandstormsince it is 2 am here my mind could get confused :)02:14
lcukwhats the link for GeneralAntilles ?02:14
GeneralAntilles~community-council02:15
GeneralAntilles~council02:15
* GeneralAntilles smacks infobot02:15
lcuk~government02:15
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, government is broken.  It doesn't work.  It doesn't keep our streets safe and it doesn't educate our children. Government is good at only one thing: It breaks your legs, hands you a pair of crutches, and says, 'See, without us you wouldn't be able to walk.'.  Libertarians need to STFU02:15
lcukhmm02:15
TiagoTiago_lol02:15
lcukinfobot isnt as nice as he should be02:15
sandstormlol02:15
sandstormZeitgeist in action :)02:16
GeneralAntilles~council is The Maemo Community Council is a five-person body chosen by the Maemo community. The Council's mission is to "represent the Maemo community's best interests to Nokia, and to act as a community conduit for Nokia-generated information." http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_Council02:16
infobotGeneralAntilles: okay02:16
johnxthat's what happens when an AI like infobot rises to consciousness in an IRC channel ...02:16
lcukno, cross channel factoids02:16
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sandstormokay ? :P02:17
GeneralAntillesDebian doesn't have a council.02:17
* SpeedEvil is re-watching Babylon 5.02:18
SpeedEvilTodays was De'lens expulsion from the Grey Council.02:18
SpeedEvilI imagine it's like that.02:18
TiagoTiago_I think a problem with the N900 is it has just enough resources to make developers feel like they don't need to worry about being carefull with resource consumption whie  still  not having enough resources to spare when under anything above low load02:19
SpeedEvilyes02:19
SpeedEvilexactly02:19
SpeedEvilThey test their app, and it works.02:19
SpeedEvilThey ship it.02:19
GeneralAntillesTwice the RAM would work wonders.02:19
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sandstormthanks for all the enlightenment, I am done for tonight, let me continue the research tomorrow :) goodnight02:19
GeneralAntillesBut it should be advertised as 256MB02:20
SpeedEvilThey don't test it with media player in the background, when the user decides to take a picture.02:20
GeneralAntillesand the OS should do its damndest to spoof devs into thinking it's 256MB.02:20
johnx'night sandstorm. catch you soon02:20
TiagoTiago_rest well02:20
DocScrutinizerlcuk: (infobot isnt as nice as he should be) she :-D02:21
johnxGeneralAntilles, huh? how would it do that?02:21
GeneralAntillesjohnx, I'm just the idea guy.02:21
GeneralAntillesImplementation is somebody else's job.02:21
johnxGeneralAntilles, <_<02:22
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SpeedEvilOk - I'm about to vote, does anyone want my paypal address?02:22
TiagoTiago_provind no virtual memory and forcing developers to implement virtual memory funcitonality from scratch?02:22
GeneralAntilles"Using Qt has cut our development time in half, because we can build one UI in Qt and target both Symbian^3 as well as MeeGo."02:23
* GeneralAntilles groans.02:23
GeneralAntillesJust like cutting Ovi Map's dev time in half, eh?02:23
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SpeedEvilOkaay. I go to maemo.org/vote - enter the credentials, and it's blank.02:24
SpeedEvilhmm02:24
GeneralAntillesGot any fancy noscript things going on?02:24
SpeedEvilAh - redoing worked02:24
SpeedEvilno02:24
GeneralAntillesNeeds a bit of js, I think.02:24
GeneralAntillesAh, well then.02:24
SpeedEvilI am on mobile, my CISP may be doing silly things02:24
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DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: now THAT's as simple as it gets, no? Just make applauncher set sane ulimits to each app started :-D02:25
GeneralAntillesHehe02:26
* GeneralAntilles grumbles about EtherPad not working.02:26
SpeedEvilThe kernel is patched to detect stalls.02:26
SpeedEvilWhen these happen, the applications contending for resources are noted.02:26
SpeedEvilThe pay of each dev is docked for every contention.02:27
SpeedEvilAnd all devs are given really large nerf bats.02:27
TiagoTiagohow hard would it be for Nokia to makke a device that comes from the factory with dualboot MeeGo/Symbian^3 ?02:27
* DocScrutinizer googles nerf bat02:27
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johnxTiagoTiago, not hard from a technical standpoint. very hard from a 'getting it past marketing standpoint'02:28
DocScrutinizerhehe02:28
TiagoTiagowhy?02:28
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SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: managment is not intrerested in cool stuff.02:28
TiagoTiagolol02:28
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: that 5% of users may be interested in.02:28
johnxbecause people who buy phones don't even understand the concept of an OS, let alone the concept that you could have two, but only one can run at the same time02:29
SpeedEvilEspecially if it may cause the 95% of users to call support when their system is doing somerthing unexpected.02:29
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lcukDocScrutinizer, wheres is the factoid database maintained (apart from individual commands here)02:30
DocScrutinizerand 99% of users understanding the concept of OS are going W*T*F????02:30
TiagoTiagoreally? I was thinking having Symbian avaible would reduce significantly the amount of whinning  about the N90002:30
DocScrutinizerlcuk: it lives on a (MySQL?) db on the server where infobot lives02:31
DocScrutinizeroh maintained. No idea02:31
lcukis there a webui to get a dump of its complete contents?02:31
johnxTiagoTiago, you should probably just ask Nokia directly02:32
TiagoTiagothose who want a simple smartphone ready to run out of the boc without all the hackery would use Symbian and the rest of us would still have our rooted mobile computer02:32
TiagoTiagobox*02:32
DocScrutinizerI think it must have a huge heritage from some smart linguistic project, and then gathered factiods from 200 chan over several years02:32
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DocScrutinizerlcuk: (webui) nope02:32
TiagoTiago~knowledge02:33
infobotsomebody said knowledge was power02:33
TiagoTiago...02:33
* SpeedEvil holds up his anonymous token.02:33
DocScrutinizerlcuk: I asked Tim about mirroring the root instance of infobot, but he wasn't nterested and also said he'd not give out he whole database before he 'cleaned it for privacy reasons'02:34
* lindi- wonders if one could just run both symbian and android on top of meego without any dualboot business02:34
johnxlindi-, yes. it's called virtualization. xen was working on an ARM port. so is vmware02:34
TiagoTiagohaving a Symbian VM would be usefull02:34
johnxthat would be a lot of fun trying to figure out which process is keeping the CPU awake though02:35
johnxalso, I think that's about 5 years out in terms of CPU power02:35
lindi-johnx: at least for android something lighter should work02:35
TiagoTiagoAndroid programs mostly run with that proprietary Java-like VM, no?02:35
johnxlindi-, I'd bet not. Android tends to rely on a fairly customized kernel with patches that haven't/can't go upstream02:35
lindi-johnx: and vmware is non-free so it does not count :)02:35
johnxlindi-, they're closest to market though, or at least claim to be02:36
BCMM_android's kernel is a fork rather than a patchset now02:36
johnxBCMM_, that makes me really sad02:36
johnxI was really hoping they could come to some agreement ...02:36
TiagoTiagoitms gonna just drift away over time or are they gonna keep porting patches ito it?02:36
BCMM_i like it - makes it easier to counter those who say "but it's linux!"02:37
TiagoTiagolol02:37
SpeedEvilIt is good for the android devs to be in a ghetto.02:37
BCMM_in a way that doesn't rapidly lead to "what's libc?"02:37
DocScrutinizerjohnx: vmware on ARM? o.O02:37
TiagoTiagowhy?02:37
johnxBCMM_, yeah, but I was hoping for being able to run a 'standard' linux distro on hardware that already had android02:37
SpeedEvilThat way they can get funding for porting android-linux to devices.02:37
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johnxDocScrutinizer, let me find the article02:37
luke-jrBCMM_: lol02:38
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luke-jrI think MeeGo is planning to actually be a Linux OS02:38
luke-jrunlike Maemo02:38
* asj chortles02:39
wmaroneit is, if they can figure out how to deal with the repositories :)02:39
luke-jrjohnx: OpenVZ should work?02:39
FIQ|n900isn't maemo running on a linux kernel?02:39
FIQ|n900as in, a real one?02:39
luke-jrFIQ|n900: a fork02:39
luke-jrlike Android02:39
FIQ|n900oh02:39
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FIQ|n900screw it02:39
lindi-johnx: I was thinking one could just offer the api used by android apps and forget android power management02:39
TiagoTiagois there a way to have the WiFi icon in thr status bar reflect the current signal quality (the amount of arcs/bars changing depending on it) ?02:39
luke-jrFIQ|n900: well, Maemo is dead. MeeGo is supposed to work with Linux. so..02:40
johnxFIQ|n900, luke-jr is known to exagerate02:40
luke-jrjohnx: not exaggerating02:40
BCMM_uname...02:40
luke-jrAndroid and Maemo are on the same level as far as kernel02:40
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BCMM_maemo has a pathced kernel, like all major distros02:41
johnxluke-jr, uhm. really not. Most maemo apps can be run on a totally vanilla kernel02:41
BCMM_patched02:41
lindi-johnx: symbian probably would require real virtualization02:41
luke-jrjohnx: that's the other end of Maemo02:41
TiagoTiagoMaemo still can run progs made for regular Linux with little modfication02:41
BCMM_android has mangled some core stuff02:41
BCMM_that upstream has rejected with a "wtf"02:41
luke-jras I said *as far as kernel*02:41
johnxluke-jr, so you mean the N900 has a kernel with significant patches to support its hardware? aaah, why didn't you say so? ;)02:41
luke-jrBCMM_: so did Maemo02:41
johnxDocScrutinizer, http://www.itpro.co.uk/609997/video-two-operating-systems-on-one-phone http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNo6pn-dnSQ02:42
luke-jrjohnx: also userland APIs02:42
luke-jrjohnx: just like Android02:42
BCMM_correct me if i'm wrong, but maemo's kernel patches are pretty much all device driver stuff, right?02:42
DocScrutinizerjohnx: thanks02:42
luke-jrBCMM_: no02:42
luke-jrBCMM_: even if you port mainline Linux 100% to the N900 hardware, it will not boot Maemo userland02:42
BCMM_so what else is there?02:42
BCMM_why not?02:43
luke-jrBCMM_: various userspace API changes02:43
johnxluke-jr, sorry, you're saying the maemo kernel has patches to support userland APIs. please back up that claim with examples02:43
luke-jrjohnx: /proc/bootreason02:43
TiagoTiagoWhy they decided to not use vanilla?02:43
johnxyeah. I'm going to go ahead and call that trivial02:43
johnxnext?02:43
BCMM_that's a proc entry02:43
luke-jrjohnx: non-trivial enough that Maemo will never boot with normal Linux02:43
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luke-jrBCMM_: which is a kernel<->userspace API02:43
BCMM_i suppose it's technically a userland api, but...02:43
asjjohnx: he's held this stance for 2 years, what's the point of even discussing it?02:44
BCMM_also, a load of device drivers on many platforms have them02:44
johnxasj, good point. I just don't like him biasing people who honestly don't know (such as FIQ|n900)02:44
lindi-luke-jr: just modify maemo to cope with lack of bootreason?02:44
luke-jrlindi-: Maemo isn't open source02:44
luke-jrthat part might be, not sure02:45
asjjohnx: that's why it's easier just to point a finger and laugh, it's IRC after all02:45
* johnx points a finger, laughs at luke-jr for being a zealot02:45
luke-jrthese are problems MeeGo is supposed to address02:45
* asj high fives johnx ;)02:45
johnxasj, you were right ;) I concede the point02:45
BCMM_what exactly does bootreason do?02:45
wmaroneit tells you the cause of the last reboot02:45
TiagoTiagois Maemo not being OSS compatible with the license of the linux stuff that was used as base?02:45
luke-jrBCMM_: nothing useful02:45
luke-jrTiagoTiago: it's legal in Maemo 5 AFAIK02:46
luke-jrTiagoTiago: but closed still means we can't change those parts02:46
johnxanyways, channel is too distracting for now. catch you all later02:46
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TiagoTiagocya02:46
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asjBCMM_: it tells you why the system rebooted last, if it was a crash or normal startup02:46
lindi-luke-jr: then why worry about it? i would not recommend running closed source software anyway :)02:46
wmaroneit was quite handy back in december when 32wd_to was causing excessive reboots02:47
BCMM_luke-jr: do you consider all patchsets forks? for example, is TuxOnIce linux?02:47
luke-jrlindi-: it is impossible to not, on N90002:47
TiagoTiagowhat is the license? is it more than one?02:47
luke-jrBCMM_: depends on the mergability, etc02:47
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lindi-luke-jr: i heard rumors that even battery charging now works with free software02:47
luke-jrBCMM_: TuxOnIce is a branch AFAIK02:47
luke-jrTiagoTiago: much is just copyright Nokia AFAIK02:48
luke-jrlindi-: is that done?02:48
lindi-luke-jr: but would be nice to hear what is missing02:48
TiagoTiagono contagious licenses?02:48
luke-jrlindi-: I know it's possible, but AFAIK nobody has actually put it into practice yet02:48
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lindi-luke-jr: with some uglyish shell script afaik yrses02:48
luke-jrshell script doesn't do everything IIRC02:49
lindi-luke-jr: ok02:49
TiagoTiagolin,,, what are those non-ascii chars in your last msg?02:49
luke-jrin any case, some parts we *can't* replace, even if we had source02:49
luke-jrbecause the OMAP won't run it unsigned02:49
TiagoTiagook the one before the last02:49
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SpeedEvilIs it confirmed that that is in fact true?02:50
luke-jrSpeedEvil: jacekowski did AFAIK02:50
SpeedEvilhmm02:50
lindi-luke-jr: i could live with a non-free boot loader perhaps if it was the piece you had in mind02:50
luke-jralso, MeeGo has a special NOLO for qemu02:50
luke-jrbecause the N900 one won't run on qemu due to signing stuff02:50
lindi-luke-jr: as a temporary compromise02:50
SpeedEvilyeah - non-free bootloadrr foresn't bother me at all02:51
luke-jrlindi-: it's annoying in practice02:51
lindi-luke-jr: sure02:51
luke-jrlindi-: we can't boot multiple kernels in any sane way right now02:51
TiagoTiagoPeople did figure out how to install unsigned progs in that Symbian that requred it, my hope is someone will eventually do it for the N900 hardware ass well02:51
* luke-jr would like to replace cellmo firmware too02:51
wmaroneTiagoTiago: there's no problem running stuff on the N900, unless you're a zealot like luke-jr02:51
luke-jrthink of the battery life we could save by moving some timed stuff to it02:51
luke-jrwmarone: tell that to NITdroid and MeeGo02:52
SpeedEvilluke-jr: Well...02:52
SpeedEvilluke-jr: Idle I get 6mA or so.02:52
wmaroneboth of which run?02:52
luke-jrwmarone: both of which require ugly hacks to boot an alternate kernel02:52
wmaroneerm02:52
wmaronehow so?02:52
SpeedEvilluke-jr: That is 8 or so days.02:52
TiagoTiagowmarone, we can't replace things like the cell modem firmware for example02:52
wmaroneirrelevant02:52
luke-jrnot-quite working uboot and kexec02:52
wmaroneluke-jr: uboot is a hack to make it easy to load the meego/nitdroid kernels02:53
luke-jrwmarone: it fails at making it easy so far02:53
lindi-wmarone: i do not think he qualifies as a true zealot if he runs non-free stuff in such great numbers willingly :)02:53
luke-jryou have to opent he N900 up to change kernels02:53
luke-jrlindi-: I don't.02:53
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wmaroneluke-jr: wow, then how the hell does power-kernel work?02:53
luke-jrwmarone: it replaces the normal Maemo one02:53
luke-jrwmarone: as mentioned earlier, Maemo won't boot with a normal Linux.02:54
luke-jrMeeGo won't boot with a Maemo kernel02:54
wmarone...02:54
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luke-jrNITdroid either02:54
wmaroneyou're mixing stuff up here02:54
luke-jrthere is no single kernel that will run all 302:54
wmaronebut nonetheless you can replace the kernel and boot pretty much any OS, right?02:54
luke-jrwmarone: you mean flash a different kernel every boot? no thanks02:54
wmaroneoh well then get to working on u-boot02:55
wmaronethey only just started, last I checked02:55
TiagoTiagohow hard would it be to have a single  ernel that changes itself depending on what is using it?02:55
luke-jrwouldn't have it, if NOLO wasn't locked down02:55
lindi-luke-jr: would be interesting to hear what non-free software you still depend on n900. i am planning to buy one if it becomes possible to use with free software02:55
luke-jrTiagoTiago: that's what multiboot is02:55
luke-jrlindi-: there is, and never will be, an open SGX driver02:55
TiagoTiagoi thought multiboot used separated partitions each with its own kernel02:56
lindi-luke-jr: never say never :)02:56
luke-jrTiagoTiago: exactly02:56
wmaroneluke-jr likes to speak in absolutes02:56
luke-jrlindi-: why not?02:56
wmaroneluke-jr: because you don't know the future. stop speaking as if you do02:56
luke-jrlindi-: ImgTec is completely hostile to free software02:56
BCMM_luke-jr: tuxonice is a patch02:56
TiagoTiagoi said a sing.le kernel that changes itself to fit the different OS' using it02:57
luke-jrBCMM_: distributed as a patch maybe, but nobody writes patches02:57
lindi-luke-jr: anyways doesnt a plain framebuffer work?02:57
luke-jrTiagoTiago: not hard at all, but I'm pretty sure nobody has interest in tht02:57
TiagoTiagowhy?02:57
luke-jrlindi-: for 2D perhaps02:57
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lindi-luke-jr: yes, is that not enough?02:57
luke-jrTiagoTiago: because it would be high maintenance02:57
BCMM_luke-jr: is a kernel that is patched with tuxonice still linux, by your standards?02:57
TiagoTiagohm02:57
luke-jrlindi-: not for gaming02:57
wmaronelindi-: 2D isn't enough though, Maemo 5 and meego both require OpenGL ES support02:58
luke-jrBCMM_: technically no, but since it's still compatible, it is for all *practical* purposes02:58
lindi-luke-jr: ok but at least you could run a free system?02:58
luke-jrlindi-: not sure...02:59
TiagoTiagotalking about that, do you know of a program, like a demo, that shows all the potential of OpenGL EsS on the N900 ( or tries to) ?02:59
luke-jrlindi-: been a while since I booted direct to Gentoo02:59
TiagoTiagoES02:59
luke-jrlindi-: usually booting Gentoo goes through Maemo's bootmenu02:59
DocScrutinizer(<luke-jr> lindi-: we can't boot multiple kernels in any sane way right now) what's wrong with chainloader e.g uBoot, to have a bootmenu to select kernels to boot from?02:59
lindi-luke-jr: I find your position bit odd02:59
luke-jrDocScrutinizer51: it's tolerable, if it ever works02:59
luke-jrlindi-: why?03:00
BCMM_luke-jr: so do you run vanilla on you computer?03:00
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luke-jrBCMM_: no03:00
luke-jrBCMM_: I run Gentoo's patchset, which is close to vanilla.03:00
BCMM_it adds userland APIs03:00
luke-jrBCMM_: does it?03:01
luke-jrpretty sure that would be against Gentoo policy.03:01
BCMM_luke-jr: fbsplash03:01
luke-jrBCMM_: dunno anything about that03:01
luke-jrI certainly don't use/depend on it03:01
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luke-jrcould just as well be running vanilla03:02
lindi-luke-jr: your complains about non-free 3d support would be much more credible if you rejected the 3d stuff because it is non-free and just used 2d stuff, carefully documenting for others how this can be done03:02
luke-jrI just figure by the time Gentoo's patched it, it's had time to sit and get bugfixes :P03:02
luke-jrlindi-: working on it03:02
luke-jrlindi-: need to get X usable first03:03
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lindi-luke-jr: of course this is biased by the fact that I'm planning to buy n900 if it becomes possible to operate free software03:03
lindi-+with03:03
lindi-luke-jr: ok, maybe I was just misunderstanding your position03:03
luke-jrlindi-: it's a long road03:04
lindi-luke-jr: btw, does gentoo have a written policy somewhere nowadays?03:04
luke-jrlindi-: nfc03:04
TiagoTiagoIs Symbian^3 any more open than Maemo  currently?03:04
luke-jrI got tired of the politics and dropped my developer position a number of years ago03:04
luke-jrnow I just do stuff in overlays03:04
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lindi-luke-jr: nfc?03:05
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luke-jrno freaking clue03:05
lindi-luke-jr: oh03:05
SpeedEvillindi-: What do you mean by 'operate free software'.03:05
TiagoTiago~nfc03:05
infobotrumour has it, nfc is No Fucking Clue03:05
luke-jrinfobot: fail03:05
infobotFAIL.03:05
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lindi-SpeedEvil: "operate with free software" sorry03:05
TiagoTiagolol03:05
SpeedEvillindi-: You will never legally have a mobile phone with a complete open stack on all cores.03:06
lindi-SpeedEvil: never say never there either :)03:06
luke-jrSpeedEvil: nonsense03:06
luke-jrlindi-: ever try a Freerunner03:06
luke-jrSpeedEvil: Freerunner has an open cellmo now, underway03:06
lindi-luke-jr: yeah I'm using one, how did you guess? ;)03:06
TiagoTiagowhat about those projects creating homebrew cell phones?03:06
SpeedEvilLegally - from a mass market maker.03:06
luke-jrSpeedEvil: screw mass market makers03:06
wmaronescrew devices that can't get off the ground seriously :)03:07
lindi-SpeedEvil: it's not black and white. but now that i have established certain level of freedom on my phone I don't want to downgrade on my next phone in to something more non-free03:07
luke-jrSpeedEvil: anyhow, that was what everyone said about open software-wifi years ago03:07
lcukconsole dialing ftw03:07
TiagoTiagolol03:07
luke-jrlindi-: do you use the free cellular firmware?03:07
lindi-luke-jr: nope since it's not legal in finland at least03:07
wmaroneawesome gprs data :D03:07
SpeedEvilluke-jr: GSM is much more regulated.03:08
lindi-SpeedEvil: just because the gsm stuff is proprietary and runs on a separate ARM chip is no reason to use non-free 3d stuff :)03:08
lcukdo free software people have a problem with using a serial modem?03:08
luke-jrlindi-: so "yes, but I won't admit to a crime"?03:08
lcuklike the original modems03:08
luke-jrlcuk: depends03:08
lindi-luke-jr: no comment of course :)03:08
SpeedEvilI personally see very little difference between close-source graphics binary blobs and bluetooth/3G/... firmware.03:08
lindi-luke-jr: but I do can confess that the GPS stuff is being worked on03:08
luke-jrSpeedEvil: one runs within the system03:09
BCMM_hang on, which sort?03:09
TiagoTiagocan the carriers tell which OS/firmware we are using?03:09
luke-jrlindi-: GPS is implemented in the cellular modem on N90003:09
lcuka modem is talking to over seial with AT commands03:09
lcukserial03:09
lindi-luke-jr: yep but I mean on freerunner03:09
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: to an extent, yes, in some cases.03:09
luke-jrlcuk: I tolerate non-free firmware, but many people don't03:09
TiagoTiagohow?03:09
lcuka modem is a non trivial piece of hardware, but it hasa featureset that can be dont by flagging certain wires at the right time03:09
luke-jrmy ideal, however, is free software, free firmware, free schematics, and free chip designs03:09
lcukdone03:10
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: If they supply the handsets, they can choose to supply or not based on the OS.03:10
luke-jrlol03:10
lindi-luke-jr: with rtklib I can calculate GPS position solutions instead of doing it with the proprietary firmware that is in the GPS chip of freerunner03:10
BCMM_"closed-sorce graphics binary blobs" could refer either to firmware that needs to be loaded by the kernel, or to cloaed opengl implementations where 3d software has to use a propriatary lib03:10
luke-jrSpeedEvil: that's technically illegal for them to do int he US03:10
luke-jr(control what handsets you use)03:10
TiagoTiagoso if you slap the sim on a device you built and programmed they would be none the wiser?03:10
luke-jrlindi-: interesting. any idea how that could be retrofit to N810? :P03:11
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lindi-luke-jr: no idea03:11
luke-jrTiagoTiago: most cellular services over here don't use SIMs03:11
lcuksomeone retrofitting cellular onto 81003:11
lcukmaking a really nice job of it too03:11
luke-jrlindi-: anyhow, to do that on N900, you would *need* a free cellular firmware03:11
TiagoTiagothat sucks03:11
luke-jrlcuk: GPS. not cell.03:12
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lcukluke-jr, n810 has gps03:12
lcukit doesnt have cell03:12
luke-jrlcuk: non-free and non-useful03:12
lindi-luke-jr: sure but you can use an external GPS device03:12
lcukthats what he is adding afaik03:12
lcukits very useful03:12
luke-jrlcuk: rtklib is presumably a free GPS library03:12
lcuktracy loved todd03:12
lcukwell theres free gps on it already03:12
luke-jrlcuk: nope03:13
lcukthe routing is :(03:13
luke-jr...03:13
lcukcos its disabled now and tracy keeps getting lost03:13
lindi-luke-jr: beware, rtklib only replaces the last part of the calculations, it's not a complete firmware03:13
luke-jrlcuk: N810 GPS is 100% non-free03:13
luke-jrlindi-: no clue on N810's GPS03:13
lcukluke-jr, it doesnt cost anything to use the maps03:13
lindi-luke-jr: and rtklib currently does not run on my freerunner, i need the cpu power of my laptop to run it :)03:13
luke-jrlcuk: cost has nothing to do with free/non-free03:13
lindi-luke-jr: but the author has optimized it to run on a beagleboard03:13
TiagoTiagoIs there a way to make the N900 pretend to be a bluetooth GPS and trick programs on a PC and on other devices into accepting itms coordinates data etc?03:13
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: yes.03:14
luke-jrTiagoTiago: in theory only03:14
lindi-luke-jr: do you have a freerunner?03:14
lcukluke-jr, ahhh "the n810 gps does not have its freedom"03:14
luke-jrlindi-: nope03:14
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: you need to set it up like the FR.03:14
luke-jrSpeedEvil: I tried to, this MBP won't see it as a GPS03:14
lindi-luke-jr: oh, why not? ;)03:14
TiagoTiagoso no deal with Maemo?03:14
luke-jrlindi-: too expensive03:15
lindi-luke-jr: ok :(03:15
lcukluke-jr, hmm03:15
luke-jrlindi-: especially considering there is no GSM/WCDMA here03:15
lcukbut you have an n900?03:15
luke-jrlcuk: curtosy of Nokia03:15
lcukk03:16
luke-jrhowever that's spelt03:16
lindi-luke-jr: so you could just stop using that non-free stuff if you wanted? ;)03:16
TiagoTiagoi think it's "cortesy"03:16
luke-jrlcuk: btw, N810's non-free GPS usually *doesn't work*, and *never works* with any modern kernel03:16
lcukso03:16
nox-courtesy03:16
lcuktheres more defeinitions of what free can be03:16
TiagoTiagothx03:16
luke-jrlindi-: it's a matter of time, if you don't want 3D and ignore firmware03:16
luke-jrlindi-: I think03:16
lcukfree == no money,  free == freedom,  free == freebie03:16
lindi-luke-jr: sounds promising03:16
lindi-luke-jr: got some status web page?03:17
luke-jrlcuk: free == no money is an abuse of language :P03:17
luke-jrlindi-: not really, just for N81003:17
luke-jrlindi-: I have a Gentoo overlay though :p03:17
lindi-ok03:17
luke-jrhttp://luke.dashjr.org/programs/gentoo-n900/03:17
TiagoTiago"no  cost" ?03:17
SpeedEvilThe n810 GPS is broadly similar to the description in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead/Protocol03:17
lindi-luke-jr: anyways, many people are selling their freerunners quite cheaply nowadays03:17
SpeedEvilI am unsure it is the same chip rthough.03:17
luke-jrit's a TI GPS530003:18
luke-jrI think the same one in the N90003:18
luke-jrlindi-: my cap for a FR is $50 :)03:18
lindi-luke-jr: you don't value freedom much :P03:18
SpeedEvilluke-jr: I've been pondering I2C snooping the GPS on the n90003:18
luke-jrlindi-: freedom to do... notihng? :P03:18
SpeedEvilluke-jr: As I'm contemplating opening it up to add stuff.03:19
lindi-luke-jr: to run emacs of course03:19
luke-jrSpeedEvil: it's not on I2C03:19
SpeedEvilluke-jr: It is.03:19
SpeedEvilluke-jr: It's not on the CPUs I2C03:19
luke-jrSpeedEvil: it's only connected to the cellular modem, not the OMAP03:19
luke-jryou can access I2C on the modem?03:19
SpeedEvilyes.03:19
SpeedEvilWith wires.03:19
luke-jrlindi-: I don't value phones much. Much less phones with little memory/flash. Much less ones I can't get service for.03:20
luke-jrSpeedEvil: ah03:20
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luke-jrSpeedEvil: good luck03:20
TiagoTiagowould it be possible to patch those contacts under the battery to allow bridging coomjunications between the outside and the walled stuff like the cell modem?03:20
luke-jrSpeedEvil: it will probably be no more useful than the N810's serial data :p03:20
luke-jrTiagoTiago: wtf?03:20
lindi-luke-jr: hmm, so you value functionality over freedom?03:21
luke-jrlindi-: I value the combination.03:21
TiagoTiagoi thought someone here had said the other day that ther was a plug for the main proccessor and another for the protected processor that runs the cell modem and stuff03:21
luke-jrfreedom with no functionality is worthless03:21
luke-jrfunctionality with no freedom is also worthless03:22
luke-jrthat's why I don't have a Ben NanoNote03:22
SpeedEvilluke-jr: Indeed.03:22
TiagoTiagois it true freedom without functionallity?03:22
TiagoTiagothat kinda sounds like being set free inside a jailcell03:22
lcukinfinite jailcell03:23
luke-jrhehehe03:23
lcukbut even that has its upsides :)03:23
lcukplenty of wallspace to write on03:23
TiagoTiagolol03:23
SpeedEvilA non-free device on which I can do apt-get install build-essentials isn't especially non-free to me.03:23
lindi-luke-jr: but I can make calls, so it's not "no functionality" ;)03:24
TiagoTiagonot if its just infinite in the up direction03:24
lcuk++ SpeedEvil03:24
lcukTiagoTiago, i am tall03:24
TiagoTiagolol03:24
lindi-SpeedEvil: scary device (hint, it's build-essential)03:24
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lcuklindi-, hes free to try to install anything he wants :P03:25
TiagoTiagothat doesn't fit in the default partitioning of the N900, no?03:25
lcuki believe it does03:25
lcuka newly flashed pr1.2 has >00mb free03:25
lcuk10003:25
lcukand build-essential is about 80mb03:25
TiagoTiagoitm+ not optified, is it?03:25
lcukwith a new line in maemo-optify-boottime config file, the /usr/include folder can be put onto opt easily03:26
TiagoTiagoit's*03:26
SpeedEvillindi-: I installed it more than once03:26
lindi-lcuk: now think of the build dependencies of chromium-browser for a second :) I had to do several recompiles to get some ARM fixes done03:26
wmaronelcuk: is it the /usr/include dir that uses most of the space?03:26
luke-jrlindi-: you can, but I couldn't.03:26
* lcuk has considered optifying build-essential many times03:26
SpeedEvil(I recommend installing it in a chroot)03:26
lcukwmarone, it uses enough03:26
lcukand grows quickly03:26
SpeedEvilCopy / into a /home/user/03:26
wmaronehm03:26
lcukas more -dev packages are needed03:26
SpeedEvil /home/user/chroot03:27
TiagoTiagocurrently i have only 13MB free in rootfs :/03:27
lcukbuild-essential doesnt have any library stuff03:27
SpeedEvilthen you can install random stupid packages in that03:27
luke-jrlindi-: again, there is no GSM/WCDMA here.03:28
SpeedEvilluke-jr: You can plugin 3G module to FR USB03:28
lindi-SpeedEvil: was just going to say the same. I regularly do it when I need to upload photos from a forest :)03:29
luke-jrSpeedEvil: what good will that do without 3G?03:29
lindi-luke-jr: the usb module does 3g03:30
luke-jrlindi-: what good is that without 3G??03:30
lcuklindi-, i find it shocking at how heavyweight many apps have gotten03:30
lindi-luke-jr: sorry I don't understand03:30
luke-jrlindi-: 3G radios are useless without 3G towers03:30
SpeedEvilluke-jr: you plugin your local standard USB-cellmo03:30
luke-jrlindi-: everything here is CDMA03:30
SpeedEvilOr USB-satmo03:30
lindi-luke-jr: so how does n900 work?03:31
luke-jrlindi-: it doesn't really03:31
lindi-luke-jr: eh?03:31
SpeedEvillindi-: Works fine.03:31
luke-jrlindi-: I got someone in KC to ship me a T-Mobile SIM03:31
luke-jronce in a while I get a signal03:32
luke-jrlike at home -.-03:32
luke-jrwhere I don't need it03:32
SpeedEvillindi-: My major annoyance witht the n900 after 10 months is that there is only one stylus.03:32
lindi-luke-jr: so you are not buying freerunner because your area does not have good gsm coverage?03:32
lindi-luke-jr: but you are happily using n900 even though it suffers from the same problem? sorry but this does not compute :P03:32
luke-jrlindi-: that's one reason. I also have no use for a phone.03:32
luke-jrlindi-: I didn't pay for N900.03:33
luke-jrlindi-: I would gladly take and play with a FR at no cost.03:33
lindi-luke-jr: so stop using n900 and you don't need to use that non-free software :)03:33
luke-jrlindi-: Nokia sent it to me so I would do development for it presumably, so I will do that.03:34
luke-jrsince it's non-free, the development will be aimed to making it useful with free software03:34
luke-jr:p03:34
lindi-luke-jr: it sounds odd that you then complain that it has non-free stuff03:34
luke-jrlindi-: why?03:34
luke-jrthat's one reason I wouldn't buy it03:34
lindi-your situation is way too complex sorry :)03:35
luke-jrlol03:35
luke-jrI got $800 waiting for the first company/anyone to produce a free handheld that fits my requirements :P03:36
lindi-I can only see that you willingly use non-free software even if you didn't need to03:36
SpeedEvil$800 for a non-mass-market device is regrettably small.03:36
* SpeedEvil wishes the economics weren't this way.03:36
lindi-you could get several freerunner with that03:36
luke-jrlindi-: FreeRunner doesn't meet any of my requirements03:37
lindi-luke-jr: one would be CDMA?03:39
TiagoTiago_Doe  any of you happen to know the creators of Dwaerf Fortress personally (even if just online) ?:03:41
TiagoTiago_?03:41
luke-jrlindi-: depends03:42
luke-jra sane place to put a USB modem would work...03:43
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luke-jr(sane as in, it won't break in my pocket)03:44
luke-jrheck, MiFi could work03:45
luke-jrthe bigger issues are freedom and keyboard reallt03:45
luke-jrN900 kb SUCKS03:45
SpeedEvilI disagree somewhat.03:45
lindi-rright03:45
SpeedEvilI'mup to about 30wpm03:45
TiagoTiagohm, does the N900 not ring out loud when connected to a bt headset?03:46
luke-jr30wpm is crap03:47
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: probably not03:47
TiagoTiagomy N73 did, it was quite handy not having to keep the earpiece in my ear but not having to waste time connecting it when a call came03:48
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DocScrutinizerthough from a UI design and usability POV that probably should be a settings option, to either have always speakers-ringtone, or have ringtone via headset only (if attached), or first have n seconds via headset, then switch to speaker03:49
TiagoTiagoindeed03:50
DocScrutinizeror both, obviously (speaker and headset, concurrently)03:50
TiagoTiagook, i tested now and at least with Skype calls it does ring on both, i dunno why i didn't heard anything but still got a missed call notice....03:52
DocScrutinizere.g when connecting N900 to home stereo, to play music for the party from mediaplayer, I'd not be amused to have screen clicks and ringtones and sms notifcations and whatnot via stereo @ 110dBm :-P03:52
TiagoTiagolol03:52
nox-:)03:52
TiagoTiagowith lack of additional profiles that is indeed a problem03:54
DocScrutinizerI made a few profiles for that, one of my profiles is called "music source"03:59
lcukDocScrutinizer, at the other end of ths spectrum, when you have headset plugged in whilst you are in church/hospital/library/any place quiet - you expect your device to stay quiet04:00
DocScrutinizeryep04:01
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DocScrutinizerbut you'd need a special profile for that anyway, independently of any connected headset, no?04:01
lcukwhen I plug in headphones doesnt all sound go through there?04:02
* luke-jr would really like a hardware switch to disconnect the speakers :P04:02
DocScrutinizerusually yes. Though TiagoTiago just claimed skype doesn't04:02
luke-jrtrusting software just doesn't jive well with me04:02
luke-jrunless the kernel could enforce it04:02
lcukluke-jr, surprisingly I find myself agreeing04:02
lcukon desktop04:03
lcuki generally use the hardware volume/power04:03
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DocScrutinizerI'd like a better way to access different particular volume settings, like adjusting ringtone volume easily, and music volume, and screen click volume, and kbd click, and sms notification... etc...04:05
rasterDocScrutinizer:  DOCZ!04:05
DocScrutinizera dedicated volume slider for each single app04:05
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DocScrutinizerraster ;-D04:05
lcukyou mean some mechanism for each app to register its audo requirements and allow some sort of introspection :p04:05
lcukaudio04:05
rasterDocScrutinizer:  how goes?04:05
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TiagoTiagosystem and  key and screen clicks don't even got sliders for volume control, just e3 settings, mute, barelly hearable and full04:06
DocScrutinizeralways fighting uphill :-)04:06
DocScrutinizerhow's you?04:06
rasterDocScrutinizer: fighting many things04:06
rasterfrom bugs though to non-code things04:06
rasterbut its moving along04:06
* lcuk fights nothing today04:06
rasterwho here hates that maemo is moviong to meego and really liked things debian based04:07
rasteror would love a deb/ubuntu(like) based os?04:07
rasterjust curious how much people are attached to/ like the deb way?04:07
lcukwho says we can't submit debs to all meego and use em anyway?04:07
DocScrutinizerlcuk: what I mean is a separate softvol for each app. Easily done via ALSA when only the app knows how to use other audio device than just 'default'04:07
lcukerrr patches04:07
luke-jrraster: I'm attached to the Gentoo way.04:07
lcukraster, it could be worse you know04:08
lcukinstall-shield was an option04:08
rasterlcuk: well as meego will be arpm based.. i dont see that they will  happily support 2 packaging systems... no?04:08
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lcukits easy04:08
lcukdebian/ is just a folder04:08
lcukrpm is just a spec file04:08
luke-jr...04:08
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rasterluke-jr: yeah. but thats just not feasible. so u can stay there :)04:08
lcukboth can happily coexist as long as maintainers can handle them04:08
rasterlcuk: well not from a packaging/dev point of view04:08
lcuk.sis is the next one i expect to hear about especially for qt apps04:09
rasteras an end-user pov04:09
rastereg04:09
rasterif u were deb/ubuntu based04:09
lcukend user shouldnt care a damn about packaging format04:09
rasteru could instantly bget access to the whole arm deb/ubuntu repos04:09
rasterand just apt-get install anything already there04:09
TiagoTiagocan the two formats be converted to the other without loosing information?04:09
luke-jrraster: uh no04:09
rasterwhich is quite a lot of stuff04:09
lcukraster, i dont have that now04:09
luke-jrraster: deb/ubuntu repos won't work on Maemo04:09
rasterluke-jr:  i know04:09
lcuki have access to the set of packages in $distro04:09
rasterbut they do work on mer04:09
lcukso on archlinux i have theirs04:09
rasterfor example04:09
raster:)04:09
luke-jr...04:09
lcukand on maemo this set04:09
lcukand mint linux..04:10
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lcukraster, for backend libs and stuff sure04:10
lcukbut show me desktop UI apps that happily work04:10
rasterlcuk: sure04:10
lcukfrom desktop down to handheld04:10
rasterjust talking of back-end04:10
lcukusers dont install backend stuff04:11
rastereg u can get the whole host of libs and back-end utils for free - i guess, with the core os04:11
lcukusers go to a nice app manager and click things04:11
rastersure - to make gui apps work on such small limited screens generally requires specific work to make them04:11
lcukand dont care if it comes inside an underwater sharkproof box04:11
rasterBUT they can use all the back-ends there already04:11
lcuksure04:12
lcuki did same for opensoundcontrol library04:12
rastervs having to re-package them themselves04:12
lcuki grabbed the debian lib04:12
TiagoTiagoOpenOffice works in the N9pp with the interface unchanged (somtimes itms too tight though)04:12
lcukand submitted it without modification to maemo autobuilder04:12
lcukthen used it in onedotzero app04:12
lcukwas simple04:12
rastersure04:12
rasterbut if u can skip that step and "just use"04:12
lcukusers couldnt just use04:12
rastermaemo has its problems in having to add extras-devel to get any decent set of extra libs etc.04:13
raster:)04:13
lcukso does * distro04:13
lcukafaik, debian stable doesn't include everything04:13
rastertrue04:13
rasterwas more thinking like mer04:13
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DocScrutinizeropensoundcontrol??? WTF is that?04:13
rasterubuntu i guess04:14
rasterbrb04:14
lcukmer would need hammering for stability04:14
lcukmake it like the wild west and its not good04:14
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lcukDocScrutinizer, network protocol for connecting midi instruments and computer control equipment04:15
rasterbak04:15
DocScrutinizeraah ok, thanks04:15
rasterlcuk:  sure. now if u had a b ase like mer04:15
rasterbut a stable solid kernel, power management middle layer, telephony and ui04:15
rasterthat actuallyt works a charm on small screens04:15
lcukyeah i know04:15
rasterand it was still x11 based (ie x11, wm, compositor, toolkits etc.)04:15
rastervs building a whole new os with new paakcages (meego) etc.?04:16
rasteris that more attractive?04:16
lcukits not04:16
raster(assuming it also ships on real devices)04:16
rasterlcuk:  so basically u dont care about the extra packages and tools.04:16
lcuki like anyone cares04:17
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raster?04:17
lcukbut if the process when i come to need a library is similar to how it was before04:17
lcukthen it doesnt really matter04:17
lcukif its hugely difficult there will be problems04:17
rastersure04:17
rasteras such rpm is a better pkg format04:17
rasterand spec files are by far better organised and easier to deal with than deb04:18
rasteri do say04:18
DocScrutinizerhear hear04:18
lcuknot really04:18
rastertho deb has the upper hand in simply the mointain of stuff already packaged04:18
DocScrutinizerduh?04:18
lcukraster, i have been somewhat above packaging recently tho04:19
TiagoTiagounder perfect external conditions what's the smallest error the N900's GPS can achieve?04:19
lcukprefer to point at git repository tags and branches04:19
lcukand say "Build that"04:19
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: 0mm04:19
lcukwhatever packager it has04:19
rasterlcuk:  sure. i am assuming that for now, the "i have to wrtie an app" work is all equal and the same04:19
rasterits just the barrier of entry to get to that stage04:19
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: 10cm04:20
rasterands the breadth of stuff available to that stage to work with04:20
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: or so.04:20
raster(tools, libs etc.)04:20
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: averaging for a week04:20
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lcuksay that to qt - they need to ensure packages are packagable in deb rpm SMI sis and any other format they support04:20
TiagoTiagothat perfect? i though the GPS system as a whole was not capable of a precision of less than a few centimeters04:20
SpeedEvilhttp://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_GPS04:20
TiagoTiago10 sounds more likelly04:20
SpeedEvil50% of points fall within 2.2m04:20
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SpeedEvila radius of04:21
rasterlcuk: i am assuming the toolkits are packaged for the os already - worrying about the job of those doing the app writing04:21
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: you asked about the smales possible error: it's zero04:21
rasterie the things that NEED to be re-done for the platform04:21
rasterthe small-screen uis and all the gazillions of utils people write and throw into things like appstores/marketplaces04:21
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TiagoTiagowhat would be necessary to get zero error?04:21
rasterti a miracle04:21
lcukraster, its an eternal frustration to people about packaging04:22
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: luck04:22
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: what do you mean by that04:22
rasterTiagoTiago: a miracle04:22
TiagoTiagolol04:22
lcukfrom any os04:22
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SpeedEvilYou can get substantially lower error if you can get the per-sat reception details out of the GPS. The n900 GPS can't - or won't - do this.04:22
rasterlcuk:  i know. i'm really asking - what is the value of the core os to you beyond it simply bnooting and working04:22
rasterif it is closed, or built ion tarballs from slackware or even hand-build cramfs read-only fs's04:23
rasterdoes it matter to you?04:23
TiagoTiagoi mean the distance between the true coordinates and the coordinate reported being less than what can be measured wigthout lab equipament, therefore zero04:23
rasterat what point does the "how good is your base tech" top being relevant to you?04:23
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: I can measure 1mm without lab equipment.04:23
SpeedEvilI diddn't realise how good commercial gyros had gotten.04:24
TiagoTiagoso less than a milimeter04:24
lcukraster, i wrote liqbase for one reason, to ensure i had a solid open reliable core system.  that should answer your question.04:24
SpeedEvil~25*25mm gyro will give you .5 degree/sqrt(hr) random walk.04:24
SpeedEvil(though it is $900 now)04:24
lcukthe "base" part is the important bit ;)04:24
lcukraster, and regarding the rest04:25
TiagoTiagowhy randomness in things like accelerometers and  gyrometers don't average too zero even when unbiased?04:25
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: because they don't know where zero is.04:25
TiagoTiagolol04:26
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: you probably want to know what error is introduced by GPS system from  technical / design level04:26
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: if you flip a coin a million times, you will not get 500K heads - even with an unbiased coin.04:26
lcukof course it matters, meego base is as open as it can be, its very similar to maemo at that level just organised a bit differently04:26
TiagoTiagobut the more tries you do the closer it gets, no?04:27
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: yes04:27
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: And if you then do another million flips, the chances that you get another error in the same direction is just as high as you get an error that cancels.04:27
SpeedEvilIn short - no.04:27
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lcukraster, you are also aware I have spent the last year working on maemo application framework stuff and apart from the odd gremace about closed things generally dont have issues04:29
TiagoTiagoit's kinda annoying how randomness is counterintuive04:29
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: systematic error of GPS is probably around a few mm04:29
DocScrutinizerdepending on the specific technical measures the receivers use04:30
rasterlcuk: sure - so you made your own protability layer04:30
rasterand you package that and be done with it04:30
raster:)04:30
TiagoTiagodoes the GPS reports the position of the chip or the center of the device?04:30
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: the antenna04:30
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SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: which is close to the on/off04:31
TiagoTiagohm04:31
lcukraster, not quite portability, but it went along with my thinking04:31
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: obviously the pos of the antenna04:31
rasterlcuk:  well your own "make sure i have the api's, facilities etc. there and this lib takes care of that"04:31
nox-mm accuracy w gps?  wont that need a mil version?04:31
lcukyup, same as any library04:32
DocScrutinizernox-: sure04:32
TiagoTiagohm, ah, right, it can't know which way the device is rotated in order to calculate the correct offset04:32
DocScrutinizernox-: plus a reference, and special means in receiver to compare phase of carier signal etc04:32
nox-:)04:33
SpeedEvilnox-: no.04:33
SpeedEvilnox-: It needs an expensive reciever with typically another expensive reciever nearby04:33
nox-ah yeah differential gps, ok04:34
DocScrutinizerthat's what I meant by reference04:34
lcukomg painful video from NW :(04:35
TiagoTiago?04:35
TiagoTiagowhat is "NW"?04:35
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lcukTiagoTiago, nokia world04:40
* GeneralAntilles just reached for the stupid iPhone to test an application for MWKN.04:40
lcukGeneralAntilles, why is it stupid?04:41
GeneralAntillesBecause it's not particularly useful for me.04:41
GeneralAntillesDoesn't read books well, doesn't multitask, doesn't handle IRC well.04:41
lcukpush folks to put meego on it :)04:42
GeneralAntillesHa04:42
GeneralAntillesLinux isn't on it.04:42
GeneralAntillesYou think they'll be able to get MeeGo on it without that?04:42
lcukhmm, have seen iphones with tux?04:42
GeneralAntilles1st and 2nd generation, maybe.04:42
GeneralAntillesNot anything afterwards.04:42
lcukhmm04:43
nox-http://www.idroidproject.org/wiki/Main_Page04:43
lcukandroid on 3g somewhere i think, so that means theres a kernel and stuff04:43
nox-yeah :)04:44
GeneralAntilleslcuk, 3G is second generation.04:44
lcukso 3g is 2g04:44
lcuk?04:44
GeneralAntilles3G is the iPhone 1 with 3G data.04:44
GeneralAntillesiPhone, iPhone 3G, iPhone 3G S, iPhone 404:44
lcukmeh04:45
lcuki just want to see like for like really04:45
TiagoTiagoarent you confusing 3G with G3?04:45
GeneralAntillesTiagoTiago, 3rd generation or generation 3.04:46
GeneralAntillesApple's created the confusion.04:46
GeneralAntillesiPods were always 1G/2G/3G before the iPhone 3G was ever a prototype.04:46
lcukopeniboot04:47
TiagoTiagoregarding cell phone technology it's usually the nimber then the word generation, while for devices itm's the word generation and then the number; at least that is how it looks like for me04:48
GeneralAntillesTiagoTiago, wasn't before the iPhone 3G came out.04:48
GeneralAntillesG3 makes me think PowerMac G3.04:48
TiagoTiagohm04:49
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TiagoTiagois it possible to make the N900 work as a bootable USB OS when pluged into a PC without having to reflash MyDocs?04:56
GeneralAntillesMicroSD?04:56
TiagoTiagohm04:56
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: In principle, you can boot from mydocs04:56
SpeedEvilwith a VFAT layering fs, or a big drive.04:57
nox-by default at least its `superfloppy' tho04:57
TiagoTiagoisn't it marked as a non-bootable partition?04:58
SpeedEvilhmm04:58
SpeedEvildunno04:58
nox-it doesnt even have a partition table...04:58
nox-(thats what superfloppy means)04:58
TiagoTiagohm04:59
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TiagoTiagois that bootable with most motherboards?04:59
nox-dunno04:59
* nox- would doubt05:00
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nox-so microsd sounds better indeed05:01
TiagoTiagoindeed05:02
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lcukhey raster - i was playing with liq* stuff on x86 and was blown away by speedups, on my laptop i ran little liqflow thingy and instead of its usual 200 particles (it reasonably supports upto about 1000) on the x86 it happily ran 25000 and was still not slow at 50k particles05:08
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lcukwas awesome :D05:08
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TiagoTiagoheh05:08
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TiagoTiago_what was the clock?05:08
lcuk800mhz first, but I changed from its usual powersave mode to performance of 1.87ghz for the 50k test05:09
TiagoTiago_and what clock was the N900 when you tested the limits?05:10
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lcukTiagoTiago_, liqflow has run at fullspeed on the n900 all along, i am not sure what clock it sits on05:11
lcuki noticed the other day it was using 20pc cpu for doing something05:11
TiagoTiago_i mena, was it overclocked or stock?05:12
lcukhave a look yourself, just install it and tell me05:12
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lcukTiagoTiago_, very stock05:12
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lcukTiagoTiago_, but i know the cpu slows itself down05:12
TiagoTiago_so at most 600MHz, is 200MHz enough to explain the difference?05:12
lcuki just dont know how to know what its in05:12
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lcukTiagoTiago_, just the way it is05:13
TiagoTiago_what do you mena?05:14
lcuk1000 on device runs well05:14
lcuk25k doesnt05:14
lcukthats all i know :P05:14
TiagoTiagowhat was the ram of the x86 machine?05:15
lcuki can bring the laptop to its knees tho :P05:15
TiagoTiagoheh05:15
lcukits ok i think i noticed05:15
lcukdifferent05:15
lcukdifference *05:15
lcukon device i can make longer strokes easier05:16
lcuk;)05:16
lcukso it degrades quicker05:16
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lcuk(more strokes == more work)05:16
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TiagoTiago_it isn't the same as a single stroke with the same lenght as the sum of the length of multiple strokes?05:17
lcukno its less related05:18
lcukbut on a small display05:18
lcuki can move finger around quicker and get strokes all over05:18
TiagoTiago_why?05:18
lcukcos the nobble on this laptop suz05:18
lcuksux05:18
TiagoTiago_the what?05:19
lcuknobble/nipple/mouse thing05:19
lcukbetween GHB keys05:19
TiagoTiago_ah, the nub mouse05:19
ieatlintGHB?05:20
ieatlint(yes, of course that's what will get my attention)05:20
lcukieatlint, lenovo nub mouse thingy in the middle of the GHB keys05:21
ieatlinthaha, the trackpoint05:21
TiagoTiago_but why a single long stroke with the length equal to the sum of the lengths of multiple strokes doesn't consume as much processing power as the multiple strokes?05:21
TiagoTiago_is that what it's callled? i call it a nub mouse, or mouse nub05:22
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ieatlinti'm just laughing because GHB is a date-rape drug05:22
TiagoTiago_lol05:22
ieatlintyeah, they called it the trackpoint05:22
TiagoTiago_the N900 could use one05:23
nox-true05:23
ieatlintsomehow i think trying to work a mouse on it would just be awkward05:23
TiagoTiago_if it was a 5way thingy it [could work05:24
ieatlinttrackballs work i will say05:24
* lcuk has other ideas for n900 mice :P05:24
lcukTiagoTiago_, install liqflow05:24
TiagoTiago_perhaps it could be a little glass nub in the right side (where it would become the bottom while in portrait mode), and since the touch funcitonality has pressure sensitivity it would allow for 5way functionality05:25
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lcukTiagoTiago_, i shall have to muck around and get a full set of benchies05:28
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TiagoTiago_aight05:29
* lcuk likes liqflow on live wallpaper now05:29
TiagoTiago_heh05:29
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TiagoTiago_does it still record strokes?05:30
lcukapart from a couple of bugs it seems to be good05:30
lcukit works exactly as before05:30
lcukbest on the single livewp across all05:30
TiagoTiago_doesn't it get polluted with all the accumulated strokes?05:30
lcukyes but it only uses the most recent 4 strokes for calculation05:31
TiagoTiago_what happens to the old strokes?05:31
lcukthe options dialog and settings are pending05:31
DocScrutinizertrackpoint, trackball, bah. Make battery cover a touchpad!05:32
lcuktheyy are part of a sketch05:32
* lcuk has been playing with other liq* things on livewp05:32
TiagoTiago_do the particles colide with each other,. or are replled by each other?05:32
DocScrutinizerand replace the proximity sensor by a sensor of an IR optical mouse05:32
lcukno way DocScrutinizer05:33
TiagoTiago_an optical trackball, interesting idea05:33
lcukyou dont put it face down05:33
lcukadd mouse laser on backside along with other camera stuff05:33
DocScrutinizerlcuk: eh?05:33
lcukuse nice touchscreen for full mouse05:33
DocScrutinizerface down?05:33
TiagoTiago_a time of flight camera would rock05:33
lcuk<DocScrutinizer> and replace the proximity sensor by a sensor of an IR optical mouse05:33
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lcukproximity sensor is on the face05:34
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago_ got it onstantly05:34
nox-bbl05:34
TiagoTiago_got that?05:34
TiagoTiago_cya05:34
lcukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdVqdfFdL3Q05:34
lcukDocScrutinizer, ^05:34
lcukthen use the screenspace where palm is to fill with other modules, clock and cpu stats from main computer etc05:35
lcukz4chh wrote a liq* remote stats gathering tool last year :)05:35
DocScrutinizerlcuk: completely different thing than what I'm talking bout05:36
lcukyou are wanting a finger nub?05:36
SpeedEvillcuk: neat05:37
DocScrutinizerI'm talking about an optical trackball05:37
SpeedEvilGlue tiny lens to frontcam05:37
DocScrutinizer(thanks for the nice term, TiagoTiago_ :-)05:38
SpeedEviland side-illuminate05:38
TiagoTiago_:)05:38
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: yo05:38
DocScrutinizerbut the rear side fullsize touchpad is a much nicer idea yet05:39
SpeedEvilI want rear e-ink05:39
lcukpolaroid printer05:40
lcukwould be awesome05:40
DocScrutinizeryou could make the screen "transparent" by displaying your fingers positions on the touchpad by images of fingers05:41
DocScrutinizerand you can scroll and everything while holding the device like you do usually while typing on hw kbd05:41
SpeedEvillcuk: Have you investigated if you can get adequate position information from a painted surface?05:42
TiagoTiago_can the maincamera tbe used to track motion like that?05:42
SpeedEvillcuk: Like you can use an optical mouse on white paper05:42
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago_: nope, not enough fisheye05:42
TiagoTiago_what it sees is too out of focus to track features?05:43
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: yes05:43
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: also - no light05:43
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: the flashlight LED can't go dim enough05:43
TiagoTiago_use the flash or the recording led05:43
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TiagoTiago_oh05:43
TiagoTiago_it gets too overexposed?05:43
DocScrutinizerthe cam can't detect touches to the cover surface05:43
SpeedEvilyes05:44
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lcukto05:44
lcukSpeedEvil,05:44
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: I mean if you added a lens system to bring the surface into focus05:44
lcukthe video there is not based on mouse05:44
SpeedEvilumm?05:44
lcukits based on the facecamera and lights above05:44
SpeedEvilyes, I know05:44
DocScrutinizerbut replacing the battery cover by a capacitive touchpad should be relatively feasible05:44
lcuki doubt i could focus the face camera whenever i looked it didnt appear to show anything usable05:45
lcuk(open lence and show preview with torch on)05:45
SpeedEvillcuk: I was meaning that optical mice use a similar idea, but track on small variations on brightness.05:45
lcuklens *05:45
SpeedEvillcuk: I was meaning the face camera05:45
lcukfocus main camera *05:45
SpeedEvilbut from normal ceiling05:45
lcukahh no not really05:46
lcukthe image is awesomely noisey05:46
* lcuk is getting tired05:46
TiagoTiago_testing with Fcamera and Livefocus keepign the LED lit it seems it could work, even if the image is out of focus, you just need the "mousepad to not be too plain05:47
* DocScrutinizer is considering a POC setup by strapping two N900 together, back to back, and use the downside unit's touchscreen to move the upside unit's 'cursor'05:48
lcukTiagoTiago_, cool05:48
lcukTiagoTiago_, so thats facing the camera down on a surface05:49
TiagoTiago_yep05:49
lcuk:)05:49
lcukso some algorithm to use the patterns could theoretically bring real mouse utility05:50
TiagoTiago_eith a patterned surface i can clearly see the blobs of light and dark moving05:50
TiagoTiago_with*05:50
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: the other problem is that the fps is too low05:50
lcukSpeedEvil, not really05:50
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: mouse cams go at 1500fps05:50
lcukas a portable thing to save me carrying mouse as well05:51
lcukit would be good05:51
SpeedEvilhmm05:51
SpeedEvilYou can add the accel input too05:51
TiagoTiago_sure05:51
SpeedEvilThough I question how much that'd help.05:51
SpeedEvilGPS for really big movements. :)05:51
lcukonly to know its moving05:51
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: mice also have a resolution of 256 pixel05:51
SpeedEvilTrue05:51
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lcukfuck05:52
lcukhow did i close a chan :S05:52
SpeedEvilctrl-w?05:52
TiagoTiago_something like  a fasffourier thingy to detect how out of focus the iamge actually is could be used to detect when you're lifiting it frmt he surface05:52
DocScrutinizerso they have a microscopic (literally) view area and this minimal spot needs to be scanned faster than you move "out of area"05:52
TiagoTiago_or is there a distance detrector for thee autofocus?05:52
lcukTiagoTiago_, leave focus at macro minimum05:53
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: IT CAN focus down to 4cm or so05:53
TiagoTiago_Fcamera calls the lowest focus 5 centimeters05:53
lcukand just see what sort of processing we can do on the patterns05:53
lcukto see feasibility05:53
lcukthen catch edge cases05:53
SpeedEvilI'm not sure if it'll be much more focussed if you set it to 5cm than infinity05:53
lcukusing accel and other bits05:53
SpeedEvilI suspect not05:53
lcukit will be lightdark areas as said05:54
lcukgross features of the surface05:54
lcukrather than fine woodgrain05:54
lcukit might only work on certain surfaces like old mice did, but its a different usecase to play with05:54
TiagoTiago_you probably need to compoesante for the uncentered "vigneting" caused by the LED being closer to one side thant he other05:55
TiagoTiago_compensate*05:55
TiagoTiago_though depending ont he alroithm used in processing the image it might not matter05:55
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TiagoTiago_algorithm*05:56
lcuktired fingers*05:56
TiagoTiago_heh05:56
DocScrutinizertired doc*05:56
DocScrutinizerI'd sugest to use privacy indicator (orange LED) actually, for illumination. Rather than white monsters05:57
lcukred led isnt it05:58
lcukand yeah i agree if its sensitive05:58
TiagoTiago_i couldn't get it to lproduce enough light to make thigns visible when the camera is agaisnt the surface05:58
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lcukblast it with white light then05:59
lcukbrute force approach lol05:59
DocScrutinizerit's actually an orange LED, at least it's more shortwave than usual red ones05:59
TiagoTiago_looks REd to me05:59
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TiagoTiago_red*05:59
lcukif oranges had been that red, we would be eating reds05:59
TiagoTiago_lol05:59
DocScrutinizermeh06:00
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lcukheh06:00
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TiagoTiago_and using the white LEDs you can more easilly use surfaces of different colors, things that are  aren't red and black wouldd be harder to detect the patterns with the red LED06:02
TiagoTiago_does liqflow use hardware acceleration?06:02
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lcukTiagoTiago_, yes06:03
lcukit makes full use of the cpu06:04
TiagoTiago_what about the GPU?06:04
lcukxvideo yuv overlay bypasses the powervr and compositing06:04
TiagoTiago_i remember reading abnout PlasmaPong that it uses shaders for running the liquid simulation06:04
lcukthen no, this is direct software driven stuff06:05
lcukgas balls is a rather nice opengl doofer06:05
lcukthats on ovi06:06
DocScrutinizer51TiagoTiago_: what's wrong with white+black surfaces when lit with red, err orange light?06:06
TiagoTiago_would it use too much processing power to make the particles in liqflow repell each other abit  to avoid them pilling up in the same place?06:07
TiagoTiago_if for example the surface i blue and black with red light it would look all dark06:07
TiagoTiago_is*06:07
DocScrutinizer51works perfecrly for me, with stock video cam, on a paper with normal printout it's abot 1.w lines size that's detected06:07
lcukTiagoTiago_, yes, there are alternatives :)06:07
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lcukthe original version made particles expire after a time and regen anywhere, and also regen at screen boundaries06:08
TiagoTiago_,why you changed?06:08
lcukbecause its nice to have it working like it does06:09
lcukbut the variations will return06:09
TiagoTiago_perhaps the lines could introduce random tyurbulence on the particles that get close enough?06:09
lcuktheres been many things06:09
lcuktheres already random turbulance on the entire thing :)06:09
lcukor did you think the accelerometer was totally smooth ;)06:09
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lcukyou can get those particles out of a well06:10
lcukif you swing device06:10
lcukor tip it around etc06:10
lcuk:)06:10
TiagoTiago_then why do the particles often eventually get all in a single  thin line following one of the traces?06:10
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lcukwhy do clouds generally sit at one level in the sky06:11
TiagoTiago_hm, nonlinear pressure gradients?06:11
lcuksimilar effect happening here :P06:11
TiagoTiago_dunno06:11
TiagoTiago_hm06:11
lcukhttp://liqbase.net/liqflow_test.AVI06:12
lcukthats the very original version about 10 minutes after i coded it06:12
lcukit didnt even have accelerometer support then :)06:13
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TiagoTiago_'m seeeing the stuff from liqflow in the full black pixels of my wallpaper, is that on purpose?06:14
lcukno06:15
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lcukchances are you have the version from extras itself06:15
lcukwhich still needs updating06:15
TiagoTiago_is there one on -dev?06:15
lcukyeah06:15
DocScrutinizer51but while testing this video thing, I noticed a nice WTF: since I installed fcam(?) I have to start maemo camera explicitly as it doesn't startup on lens slider... well ok. BUT closing lens slider making cam window vanish and still camera-ui eating some 40perc cpu, while device GUI is basically frozen, that's definitley not appreciated :-(06:16
TiagoTiago_i got -dev enabled, why did i get the one from -test instead?06:16
lcukhm06:16
TiagoTiago_haven't noticed that yet06:16
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TiagoTiago_what would happen if you killed any particles that got too closed to other particles, recreating them somewhere randomlly??06:18
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lcukTiagoTiago_, it would slow everything down06:19
TiagoTiago_:(06:19
lcukTiagoTiago_, theres ways round it of course06:19
lcukbut i like making spiral galaxies and watching them spin round06:20
TiagoTiago_heh06:21
lcuki should put the config options together properly06:21
lcukit should be possible to c06:21
lcukswitch out the engine for a new one06:21
lcukive already got some variations (theres an alpha blended variant for instance06:22
lcukhttp://liqbase.net/liqflow.stars.test.20091224_018.jpg06:22
lcukand that sort of thing ^06:22
TiagoTiago_how do i access the config window?06:22
lcukthere isnt one for those06:22
TiagoTiago_you mented it earlier as well06:23
lcuk:) indeed i did06:23
TiagoTiago_it's the same non existent one?06:23
TiagoTiago_another benefit of the white LEDs over the red one is they are much brighter,, allowing for shorter exposure time per frame06:24
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lcukTiagoTiago_, http://liqbase.net/liq.20100920_042834.liqflow_run1.scr.png06:29
lcukit exists06:29
TiagoTiago_how do i get there?06:29
lcukyou dont yet06:30
TiagoTiago_ah06:30
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TiagoTiago_hm, interesting thing happens if you make a zigzag scribble, back and forth over itself, the particles form a straight line somewhat orthogonal to the scribble06:32
lcuksure06:33
* lcuk can make a love heart06:33
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TiagoTiago_lol06:34
lcukhttp://liqbase.net/20091219_002.jpg06:34
lcukharder than you think TiagoTiago_ ;)06:34
TiagoTiago_you blurred so i can't see the lines yu drew?06:35
lcukbut it was stable and pulsing beating06:35
lcukTiagoTiago_, i blurred it because i am a crap cameraman06:35
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TiagoTiago_lol06:35
lcukTiagoTiago_, one of the things for livewp stuff06:37
luke-jrArr, how ye be my maties??06:37
lcukwas to do the same as i do for other sketches06:37
lcukand record sometimes and playback others06:37
TiagoTiago_why the particles don't look shaken when i shake it? is it because of the toroidal topology?06:37
lcukluke-jr, that was yesterday ya skurvy sea dog06:37
luke-jrlcuk: nay, nay, today it is!06:38
lcukTiagoTiago_, they grow normally with banging06:38
luke-jrthe nigh draw near, but has not come yet!06:38
lcukbut i noticed recent one didnt include it06:38
TiagoTiago_no, i mean, they continue moving like it hasn't been shaken06:38
lcukluke-jr, aye thar be grog a plenty and buxon wenches to plunder still today06:38
TiagoTiago_or is it what its to be expected from particles floating in a liquid?06:39
TiagoTiago_is it talk like a pirate day already?06:39
luke-jrmy wench isn't here to plunder :(06:39
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luke-jrTiagoTiago_: almost over, n0b06:39
TiagoTiago_:(06:39
lcukmind you, as tracy said, i dont need a specific day to talk like a pirate06:39
TiagoTiago_lol06:40
lcukTiagoTiago_, have a play with the code06:40
lcukand see what you can alter to make it fit06:40
lcukit should be possible to give accelerometer more of an effect06:40
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lcukit only uses 0.08 * acc readings at the mo06:42
TiagoTiago_i probably don't know enough to know what to do, also, would i even be able to do it int he de vice itself or does it need to be compiled on a desktop/laptop?06:42
TiagoTiago_weird random placement of spaces.....]06:42
lcukliqflow builds from source on device in ~10seconds fully06:42
TiagoTiago_erm, damn fat fingers syndrome06:42
lcukbut only changing liqflow_run.c takes ~3 seconds per build06:42
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lcukoops06:45
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lcukchanged gravity effect to 0.2806:45
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lcukand it has more of an effect when you shake it now06:45
lcukjust the particles fall like boulders06:45
TiagoTiago_the version i got is 0.1.7 , is that the latest one?06:46
lcukyeah06:47
luke-jrlcuk: writing the Qt killer?06:47
lcukno luke-jr06:48
* lcuk adores qt and wishes he could make use of more of it06:49
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luke-jr:p06:51
luke-jrNokia bought Qt... it won't last long XD06:51
TiagoTiago_Symbian is still around06:51
luke-jrdidn't Nokia buy Qt before Symbian?06:52
luke-jrand really... nobody uses Symbian XD06:52
DocScrutinizer51you don't use symbian, you suffer it06:54
lcuksigh06:55
lcukit works well06:55
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TiagoTiago_lol06:55
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TiagoTiago_lo07:22
TiagoTiago_lol*07:22
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koffeekanoh man.08:35
TiagoTiago_what?08:35
koffeekani figured out why my 770 kept crashing while trying to install tear08:35
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koffeekani was on he2007 and its not even compatible08:36
TiagoTiago_oh :/08:36
koffeekanright?08:36
TiagoTiago_dunno08:36
koffeekani wish 2008he ran better on my 77008:36
koffeekani need to do the mem card hack08:37
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jpinx-eeepcjust a silly thing, but when using the n900 kbd what are the keystrokes to replace Alt →  (used to scroll through the windows in irssi)09:21
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sp3000jpinx-eeepc: s/Alt/Esc/ works for that09:23
jpinxso it does  thanks sp300009:24
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jpinx-eeepcit all makes me like the n900 more as I get it more useable09:25
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th3_4zaradoP09:27
rmrfchikN8 OK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR0duOeaId8&feature=related09:28
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kwtmThe n900 certainly does take some time to optimize for usability.09:38
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ieatlintrmrfchik: lol, that's an awesome video09:40
ieatlinti hope the N9 can match that09:41
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kwtmrmrfchik: Umm, is that video supposed to be impressive?  Not saying one way or the other, but it looks like an ordinary smartphone.  Is there something in particular I should be focusing on?09:43
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mecekwtm, I found it pretty funny.09:48
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kwtmmece: What was funny?  Sorry, I didn't turn up the sound (my toddler's sleeping).  Was it that the user trying to use it like an iPhone?09:50
mecermrfchik, kwtm, I didn't really understand what she was doing. Looked like she was demoing the N8 to someone.09:51
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ieatlintsound isn't really important09:54
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ieatlintjust watch what the phone is doing...09:54
ieatlintshe wasn't able to get the images to zoom, and a couple apps crashed, and it froze and turned itself off when she tried to type in a phone number09:54
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meceieatlint, I guess you can't run all installed apps at once after all then09:56
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ieatlintyou're making assumptions... you don't need to make excuses for it09:57
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meceieatlint, huh?09:58
ieatlintyou don't know that it was running an unreasonable number of applications is what i'm saying09:58
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rmrfchikkwtm: it's just usual nokia fail. nothing new10:00
meceieatlint, I guess. It didn't behave like the one I poked at, so I figured there was a lot of stuff running.10:00
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sx0nieatlint, n8 is ok. i like it, even it is S^310:07
kwtmrmrfchik: You know, this is my first time owning a Nokia, and I thought it would be so awesome because Nokia makes so many phones.  I was so disappointed at the interface.10:07
mecekwtm, what phone is that?10:08
kwtmSorry, should have specified.  Got me a n900.10:08
jpinx-eeepckwtm: stick with it -  was too at the beginning but now I really like it10:08
mecekwtm, then you're doing it wrong. Nothing comes close to the n90010:08
kwtmWhen I got it, I was thinking, "What the bloody **** was nokia thinking???  My ancient Treo 650 was easier to use than this!!!"10:08
psycho_oreosits a bit of love it or hate it relationship with n900, don't worry, come 6 months `novelty period' time and we'll see if you still own it ;)10:09
kwtmjpinx-eeepc: Oh, I agree.  I can't live without my N900.  It is able to do so many things that other phones can't.  But it would be so much better if Nokia actually hired someone with brains to design the GUI.10:09
kwtmmece: When you say "nothing comes close", do you mean the capabilities/features or the user interface?  I agree with you on the former.10:10
kwtmmece: And, of course, the possibility that anything at all is modifiable on this FOSS phone.  But the stuff it does come with leaves much to be desired.10:10
rmrfchikn900/maemo is not about easiness. it's about geekness and nokia's research (following, as usual, fail)10:10
kwtmI should actually blog about the deficiencies in N900.  Not that it would actually make any differencve at Nokia.10:10
mecekwtm, I like the UI too.10:11
jpinx-eeepckwtm: don't waste your time10:11
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kwtmrmrfchik: Yeah.  Like X-Fade said the other day, "It's not a PHONE!  It's an INTERNET TABLET (with phone capabilities)". XD10:11
rmrfchikkwtm: maemo is not FOSS10:11
kwtmrmrfchik: Well, modifiable.  At least the hildon thing is modifiable.10:11
rmrfchikkwtm: so, lame excuse to flaws  :010:11
mecermrfchik, what flaws?10:12
kwtmrmrfchik: Yeah, I found out today that Maemo is not FOSS.  How is it licensed, exactly?  There's a proprietary core but a lot of it is OSS?10:12
Stskeeps43% or so10:12
rmrfchikmece: input framework, contacts, skippng sounds, you name it10:12
kwtmmece: Each to his/her own, then.10:12
Stskeepsrmrfchik: input framework is open but not plugins10:12
mecekwtm, yep :) I can only speak for myself.10:12
jpinx-eeepckwtm: I don't know of anything other than a netbook that can do what my n900 is doing right now - 6 browser windows, sms window, phone window, irssi in screen in a chroot, 12 documents and all ssh'd over to my eeepc :)10:13
kwtmStskeeps: Is this, like, "79.2% of all statistics are made up on the spot"?10:13
rmrfchikkwtm: there are proprieatry key features10:13
Stskeepskwtm: no, sec10:13
rmrfchikStskeeps: it doesn't help to fix input for non-latin10:13
sx0nstd Monday nagging day, /me gets a cup coffee10:13
kwtmOkay, just tio clarify: I love my n900.  BUt only because I'm forced to love it because nothing else comes close.10:13
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Stskeepskwtm: http://mer-project.blogspot.com/2010/02/mapping-openness-of-maemo-50-pr11-and.html10:13
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Stskeepskwtm: http://stskeeps.subnetmask.net/maemo.org/openness/pr1.1/10:13
kwtmStskeeps: Ah, I see. :)10:14
rmrfchikkwtm: agree, same as me -- there is no alternative.10:14
Stskeepsif you want open maemo, go for meego :P10:14
rmrfchikand I'm hoping to jump off nokia's train soon.10:14
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kwtmmece: Maybe you've found a way around the flaws in the GUI; if so, I'd love to get your advice on these:10:14
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mecermrfchik, my contacts work fine and my sound doesn't skip, and I dont' really know what the input thing means. It could use some more ram though :)10:14
mecekwtm, what are those flaws then?10:15
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kwtmFor example, hildon is supposed to be "finger friendly".  So, when I hold down my finger and it pops up the "context window" (the equivalent of10:15
jpinx-eeepcStskeeps: the "openness" issue is with hardware drivers or I would just install debian :)10:15
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rmrfchikmece: oh, so, you can detach skype/jabber acoount from contact without deleting on server?10:15
Mece_switching.. :)10:15
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kwtmmece: the "context menu" on right-click on the desktop), why does the menu open RIGHT UNDERNEATH my finger where I can't see it?10:15
rmrfchikmece: you has custum fields?10:15
Stskeepsjpinx-eeepc: well, BME is redistributable blob, SGX will be redistributable blob, wifi and bt firmware the same10:15
rmrfchikmece: or you can sync with google?10:15
Stskeepsjpinx-eeepc: and don't fool yourself, debian on mobile devices is crap at power saving10:15
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kwtmMece_: And then it's so easy to select the top item without even seeing what it is.10:16
Stskeepsbeen there done that10:16
rmrfchikmece: may be u has contact groups? ;)10:16
jpinx-eeepcStskeeps: where's this blogged?10:16
Stskeepsjpinx-eeepc: which part?10:16
kwtmMece_: And who on earth designed the email program so that the top item which is automatically selected is "Delete this email"???10:16
jpinx-eeepcStskeeps: getting a free OS onto the n90010:16
kwtmMece_: What they *should* do is pop up the context menu somewhere OTHER THAN where my finger is stabbing, so I can actually see it!10:16
jpinx-eeepcfree as in open gpl10:17
Mece_kwtm, hold on. one at a time...10:17
Stskeepsjpinx-eeepc: several places, but if you don't want closed blobs (the very damn few there are), you're pretty much out of luck10:17
jpinx-eeepcStskeeps: :/10:17
kwtmMece_: Okay, holding.  Would love to make this GUI more usable...10:17
kwtmOh, meego is FOSS but maemo isn't?10:18
rmrfchikmece: and about input: you can't switch layout when u have no input line. so type-to-search doesn't work10:18
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rmrfchikmece: and in 90% typing _starts_ with latin layout although layout IS alternative10:18
Stskeepskwtm: meego.com is FOSS, N900 hardware adaptation and Aava hardware adaptation has some non-oss bits, but redistributable10:18
rmrfchikthat's so annoying10:18
Stskeepsfor hardware support exclusively10:18
kwtmrmrfchik: Curious: what non-latin language would you prefer to use?10:19
Stskeepsjpinx-eeepc: basically we had a debian on n810 project and it's simply not usable beyond 4-5 hours of battery life10:19
Stskeepsin idle, too10:19
Stskeeps:P10:19
kwtmStskeeps: What phones will end up using Meego?  Maybe I can try a non-Nokia thing next time.10:19
Stskeepskwtm: no idea10:19
Stskeepsi dabble in software, hardware is up to the big boys10:20
Stskeeps:P10:20
Mece_kwtm, i guess I never tried to detach a skype account. that's pretty annoying.10:20
Mece_is there a bug for this?10:21
kwtmMece_: I think you probably meant to direct that line to someone else.  rmrfchik, perhaps?10:21
jpinx-eeepcStskeeps: shame about the debian pwer problem...10:21
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Mece_perhaps. I don't see the history here.10:21
hrwmorning10:22
hrwwazd: pong10:22
kwtmIt's rmrfchik.  Hey, rmrfchik, you want to comment?10:22
RST38hmoo all10:23
Stskeepsjpinx-eeepc: debian's a server and desktop os, not a mobile os10:23
Stskeeps:P10:23
rmrfchikkwtm: russian10:23
Mece_kwtm, I never even thought about the popup menu thing as an issue, so I guess it doesn't bother me.10:23
RST38hVMware Looks To Acquire Novell's SUSE Unit10:23
* RST38h laughs satanically10:23
rmrfchikkwtm: and there is a bug filed10:23
kwtmrmrfchik: That's crummy.10:24
Mece_rmrfchik, is there a bug for the detaching of skype details?10:24
Mece_rmrfchik, I never did it so it never bothered me.10:24
rmrfchikkwtm: input was broken in PR1.2. this shows that nokia do not test basic use cases :(10:25
jpinx-eeepcStskeeps: true indeed, but it's modus operandi makes it very user friendly for non-experts10:25
RST38hrmrfchik: which they will not fix10:25
kwtmMece_: Okay, so that' point's moot.  What about scrolling --if you have a long list and you want to get to the bottom quickly (say, a list of contacts and you want to phone one near the bottom of the list), how do you go quickly to the bottom?  Ctrl-Down doesn't seem to work.10:25
RST38hrmrfchik: after all, they failed fixing the language switch for non-cyrillic physical keyboards10:25
kwtmMece_: So I end up having to stroke my finger upward, like, 50 times to get to the bottom.10:25
rmrfchikMece_: now I have merged contacts with wrong skype/jabber.10:26
kwtmrmrfchik: Oh, don't even get me started on merging/importing contacts...10:26
Mece_rmrfchik, well that blows.10:26
kwtmrmrfchik: The stupid thing wouldn't import more than 1000 contacts at once.10:26
kwtmrmrfchik: (and Mece_, this will be a question for you soon, too) so it only imported 1000 contacts, and then I'm stuck trying to figure out how to import the rest of the contacts without getting stuck with duplicate contacts.10:27
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rmrfchikkwtm: there is a "find duplicates" software in extras. works very nice.10:28
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rmrfchikkwtm: try it10:28
kwtmrmrfchik: Aha, I was waiting for someone to mention that.10:28
rmrfchik;)10:28
kwtmrmrfchik: So, first of all, I don't need to *find* duplicates, because they are tehre right in front of me.  Every single one of the contacts ended up being duplicated.10:28
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kwtmrmrfchik: Second, yes, there is a *merge* duplicates software.  And guess what it does?10:29
Mece_kwtm, heh, well I don't have over 1000 contacts so I don't have that problem. and I rarely bump in to giant lists that can't be shortened by typing. appmanager list scrolls super fast.10:29
rmrfchikkwtm: tell me10:29
Mece_kwtm, file manager actually. that one is painfully slow for scrolling10:29
kwtmrmrfchik: It says, "Here are the list of duplicates I found.  WHich ones would you like me to merge"?  So after 15 minutes of tapping on the checkbox of every contact, I've done about 70 or 80 contacts.10:30
kwtmrmrfchik: Apparently there is no facility for "check every one of these ****ing checkboxes so I don't ahve to spend two hours doing it myself!"10:30
rmrfchikto continue about nokia/maemo flaws. as skype goes online it download ALL chats it can freezing device for 10 mins (i suppose, telepathy is soooo slow when accessing messages)10:30
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Mece_kwtm, I guess the file manager or file picker scrolling is the most annoying thing I've run in to.10:31
rmrfchikkwtm: hehe, welcome to nokia's world10:31
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kwtmMece_: Okay, so that point's moot too.  I guess you just haven't needed to deal with the flaws that I've found.  Maybe Nokia engineers also don't have very many friends so they say, "I didn't see any problems with scrolling through my complete list of my two friends."10:31
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kwtmMece_: (Not directing that insult at you, but really, Nokia should use more test cases...)10:31
Mece_kwtm, I guess they had me in mind they made the thing.10:32
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kwtmMece_: the app manager jumps to the app when you start typing the name, but even the launcher doesn't!10:32
kwtmMece_: So when I want to run a program for which there is no shortcut, it's back to "scroll scroll scroll" / stroke stroke stroke!10:32
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kwtmI think I will get rich by getting tendinitis using the N900 and then sueing Nokia.10:33
rmrfchikkwtm: something is sayining me -- PR1.3 will be tested much worse.10:33
kwtmrmrfchik: Oh, and --get this-- I find my contacts faster going through the text file in vim (with incremental search) than actually using the Contacts program itself.10:34
Mece_kwtm, oh that launcher. I don't have so many apps I guess. for some reason it scrolls a little slow though. MohammadAG made a fix for that though.10:34
kwtmMece_: Really?  How do I get the fix?10:34
kwtmMece_: Why, how many apps do you have?  After all, installing apps is the purpose of the N900. (That and dropping to shell. :) )10:34
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Khertan1Hi guys !10:35
Mece_kwtm, hmm.. there's a thread on tmo somewhere10:35
Mece_Khertan1, hi10:35
kwtmMohammadAG51: Hey, we're talking about you.  You awake?10:35
Khertan1Hi Mece10:35
Khertan1someone maybe can help me with dbus ... i'm not able to get notification call back10:36
Khertan1and i didn't understand why10:36
Mece_Khertan1, I was wondering, are you still working on Khteditor10:36
kwtmMece_: Okay, next up: the lack of a decent portrait mode for the majority of the apps out there.10:36
Mece_kwtm, which is obviously moot :P10:36
Khertan1Mece_: between two release of Khweeteur10:36
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Khertan1Mece_: but yet there is modification not yet release in extras devel in the git repository10:37
JaffaMorning, all10:37
Khertan1Morning Jaffa10:37
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kwtmrmrfchik: You think we can hold off until Meego comes out?10:37
X-FadeMorning10:37
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Khertan1Morning X-Fade10:38
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Mece_Khertan1, I have a feature request. Are you interested in such?10:38
rmrfchikkwtm: well, I'm not going to buy another nokia's device10:38
kwtmrmrfchik: Any suggestions?  Are you looking at an Android device?  Those are a lot more locked down, yes?10:39
Khertan1Mece_: yep if someone will use it why not implement it :)10:39
rmrfchikkwtm: so, i will be interested in meego only when htc/asus/acer/younameit will announce device10:39
rmrfchikkwtm: yes, thinking about android now. but will use n900 as long as it stays alive10:39
kwtmrmrfchik: Agreed.  Because then we will be free of Vendor lock-in.  So, actually, I will be interested in Meego when HTC/etc. announce a device, but at that point I will plan to use it on the N900.10:39
rmrfchikit was TOOO expenisve in russia just to change10:39
* raster waves hands around about maybe stuff from samsung shipping with full linux os's ala maemo :)10:40
kwtmrmrfchik: Curious: how much did your N900 cost?10:40
rmrfchikkwtm: wtf "vendor lock-in"?10:40
Mece_Khertan1, I've been doing some qml stuff, and was wondering if khteditor could support qml and launching with qmlviewer?10:40
kwtmraster: Really?  Any keywords to google, other than "10:40
rmrfchikraster: Bada?10:40
rasterkwtm: unfortunately no :(10:40
kwtmraster: Really?  Any keywords to google, other than "samsung linux maemo raster hand-waving"?10:40
rasterwell "samsung linux platform"10:40
rasterall thats up is an sdk we released10:40
rasterworking on it atm10:41
Khertan1Mece_: hum ... what is the command line to launch the qmlviewer with a qml ?10:41
rasterstay tuned10:41
raster:)10:41
rasterrmrfchik:  not bada.10:41
rasterfull linux10:41
kwtmrmrfchik: "vendor lock-in" = "this is only available from Nokia, and if Nokia decides to shut down this project, you N900 owners are all out of luck!" + "HA" x 10.10:41
rmrfchikerr... bada is same linux as maemo10:41
Khertan1Mece_: does there is somewhere a description for the syntax highlight ?10:41
rasterx11, glibc, debian packages (linaro/ubuntu ish core)10:41
rmrfchikkwtm: ahh.. yeah10:41
rasterrmrfchik:  bada is nothinmg likae maemo10:41
rasternothing in the slightest10:41
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rasterits more like android10:42
rastertotally custom userspace10:42
rmrfchikraster: well, ok10:42
RST38hBada is a bad copy of Symbian, judging by its APIs10:42
rasterand currently shipped bada devicesa dont use linux10:42
psycho_oreosso bada is also linux OS underneath?10:42
rasterthey use nucleus as the kernel10:42
rasterforget bada10:42
rmrfchikraster: really?? didn't knew that10:42
rmrfchikwhat a shame for samsung, lol10:42
rasteroather part of samsung that is doing stuff in its own bubble :)10:42
rasteryeah10:42
RST38hWell, have you expected anything else from Samsung?10:42
Mece_Khertan1,  /opt/qt4-maemo5/bin/qmlviewer program.qml -fullscreen10:42
* rmrfchik didn't count bada as real competitor10:43
rasterofficially i'm tasked with building community around our linux efforts10:43
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Mece_Khertan1, assuming you have qmlviewer installed10:43
rasteras such our linux stuff is damned close to maemo/meego in structure10:43
rasterand os10:43
RST38hraster: our = ?10:43
kwtmYeah, I wasn't that impressed with Bada or Android because they "use linux" to run their own program which then runs all these apps.  I don't see Debian being cross-compiled for Bada or the Dalvik Java Virtual Machine...10:43
Mece_Khertan1, -fullscreen is optional, but my app is fullscreen :)10:43
rasterif i get my way it also will only be locked down as far as having to agree to void your warranty to get root access10:43
raster(you have to make the telcos happy somehow)10:44
rasterRST38h: i work for samsung.10:44
psycho_oreosmeh if bada isn't linux, its never worth looking into.. that was the only thing that got me constantly curious. Samsung could never officially declare if their OS was either custom or linux based because they probably like to keep people guessing10:44
kwtmraster: Oh, wait, what's this?  You represent Samsung in some sort of official capacity?  I'm interested.  How linux is it?10:44
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RST38hraster: ah, still?10:44
rasterRST38h: @ hq. principal engineer. i report to the evp in charge of linux dev. my orders come from executive and i pretty much have free lateral reign to dowhatever it takes10:45
kwtmraster: ok, you answered my question about working for samsung.10:45
rasterkwtm:  i do.10:45
RST38hraster: just move them to meego/maemo/whatever :)10:45
rasteri'm just formulating precisely what to do atm10:45
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rasterRST38h: no chance. qt. rpm.10:45
RST38hraster: 'cause the Bada thing is just a bad reimplementation of Symbian10:45
rasterRST38h: we are basically invested in deb10:45
RST38hraster: What is wrong with Qt or RPM?10:45
rasterRST38h: nothing i can do about bada10:45
RST38hraster: Oh, that...no problem10:45
rasterdifferent group entirely10:45
rastersamsung is a massive company10:46
RST38hraster: You *can* use both Qt and deb10:46
Khertan1Mece_: the best i think will be to made a setting for custom launch command by syntax10:46
kwtmraster: Okay, I recognize that we can't just tell Samsung to disband Bada and switch to Meego, but how likely/how effortless would it be to port apps to Bada?  I mean, is it linux, then?10:46
rasterits got too many independently waving tentacles10:46
psycho_oreosyeah but Symbian isn't linux, its something that resembles more of a cynical version of windows10:46
Stskeepsraster: qt, really? no efl? :P10:46
rasterRST38h: politically qt is bad. its nokia tech.10:46
Stskeepsoh, right10:46
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RST38hraster: It is LGPL, who give a damn?10:47
rasterStskeeps: qt is technically a good toolkit. i personally dont like it as it sucks u inot c++ land10:47
rasterand that comes with its own performance issues and i just never liked its api personally10:47
rasterbut thats a personal thing10:47
Mece_Khertan1, ok.. :) currently khteditor gets stuck somehow and the "busy" icon remains visible when you open a qml file.10:47
rmrfchikkwtm: why ever samsungs should switch to meego? I think all major players want to have non-compatible software stack10:47
rastertechnically its a very good toolkit10:47
rasterpolitically its no-go :(10:47
Khertan1Mece_ yep i made an error in the pygments call10:47
rasterwell only way samsung would consider meego is if it changed to deb and made efl and gtk first class toolkit citizens :)10:47
kwtmraster: Aww, that's crummy that Samsung won't use Nokia tech.  I mean, it's GPL'd, for crying out loud.  I'd love it for someone at Samsung to think, "Hey, if we switch to Qt, we can go stick Nokia in the gut!" or something.10:47
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* rmrfchik don't likey c++/python but there is no good alternative.10:48
kwtmrmrfchik: Well, I was hoping that they'd say, "There's a huge apps base out there so: 1) we wouldn't ahve to develop so many apps, and 2) people would buy us because there are already so many apps".10:48
RST38hraster: it is easier to make your own debian-based distro then10:48
rmrfchiklucky android developers has java10:48
kwtmrmrfchik: I mean, N900 runs *Gnumeric*, for crying out loud!!10:48
rasterkwtm: not useful for us10:48
rmrfchikkwtm:  ;)10:48
rasterand hell - what we have works as good or better than qt anyway10:49
RST38hraster: making another linux distro is no rocket science10:49
rasterefl.10:49
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Khertan1rmrfchik: unluckely android developpers have only java10:49
* rmrfchik was impressed last freeoffice release with google docs support10:49
rasterRST38h: for us its deb stuff10:49
rasterwe are there already10:49
kwtm"efl" = ?  someone explain please.10:49
RST38haha10:49
rmrfchikKhertan1: plus all running atop of it. they has SCHEME!10:49
RST38hkwtm: google, no?10:49
kwtmRST38h:  Explain "google".  Is that the answer to "efl=?"10:50
Khertan1rmrfchik: burk10:50
rasterkwtm: enlightenment.org10:50
raster:)10:50
kwtmKhertan1: And is it the same Java as Sun Java, or do you have to port everything to the Dalvik Java?10:50
rmrfchikKhertan1: translation failed. syntax error 2.10:50
rasteras such the whole toolkit works fast either in software or in opengl (it does a much better job of utilising opengl than qt does last i checked with our crazy french guys who compared the 2)10:51
kwtmrmrfchik: Are you auto-translating?  Khertan1 had spelling errors.  Should be "unlucky android developers have only java"10:51
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rastermuch like clutter - efl canbe completely gpu cbased10:51
rastere17 has a gpu and software compositor all built on evas10:51
raster(part of efl)10:52
rasteron my device here it's silky smooth :)10:52
raster(ie 60fps+ @ wvga+)10:52
kwtmraster: Wow, are you saying that there are some aspects in which Qt is worse than GNOME/Gtk?  I was trying to figure out why the whole world wasn't already using Qt.10:52
rasternah10:52
rastergtk/gnome is even worse10:52
raster:)10:52
rastertalking efl10:52
raster:)10:53
Khertan1kwtm: the reason was the old licence10:53
kwtm"efl" = "Enlightenment For Linux"?10:53
rasterno10:53
rasterenlightenment foundation libraries10:53
Khertan1raster: does efl has release something stable ?10:53
Khertan1:)10:53
rasterkeh alpha release10:53
rasterKhertan1: alpha release done10:53
rasterbeta should happne this week10:53
rasterits stable10:53
kwtmKhertan1: Yeah, but other than historically, now we should all ditch Gtk and go to Qt, right?  I mean, they went GPL finally, and then the guys at Canonica say, "Oh, but GPL is *too* free --we should use something that uses LGPL".... come on, man!!!10:54
rastermy idea of alpha == what most people think is v3.0 :)10:54
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rasterkwtm: qt is lgpl :)10:54
kwtmraster: Well, alpha is version 4.2, if you ask the KDE team. :P10:54
Mece_raster, so efl is better than qt? Actually there is efl for n900 so one could simply compare, would one be bothered.10:55
rasterkwtm:  i rest my case :)10:55
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kwtmraster: Is it?  Boy, score another point for Qt.  I guess it just comes down to politics.10:55
rasterMece_: depends. qt has more mature widgets. efl has a better rendering pipeline and canvas with custom ui's10:55
rasterMacDrunk:  and there is efl for n90010:55
rastercheck maemo extras10:55
Khertan1Mece_ : does this (http://gitorious.org/kate/kate/blobs/master/part/syntax/data/qml.xml) cover all qml syntax highlighting ?10:55
rasterlook for evas10:55
rastercanola uses efl10:56
rasterfor example10:56
rasterkwtm: politics is a factor10:56
rasterpersonal preference is another10:56
Khertan1raster: and his a disaster, not easy to port, and full of bugs :)10:56
Khertan1s/his/is10:56
rasterbut c++ costs you startup and linking time for sure10:56
rasteryes - done the prelink hacks10:56
kwtmraster: I guess the N900, capable of either Gtk/EFL or Qt, is the best of both worlds...10:56
rasterbasic c (efl) things load and link in a fraction of the time the SAMe apps take if they start using c++ libs10:57
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Mece_Khertan1, looks pretty good to me. I guess there are changes now and then, but the brunt is there :)10:57
kwtmraster: Out of curiosity, where are you geographically located?  Samsung Korea?10:57
rasterkwtm:  yes.10:57
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Khertan1Mece_: it s a part of Kate :)10:58
rmrfchikkwtm: burk10:58
kwtmraster: Okay, so back to the bottom line.  When I buy my next smartphone next year, if I go Bada, how many apps should I expect to find?  About half as many as currently available for maemo? More? Less?10:58
rasterkwtm:  dunno. as i said. dont bother abotu bada :)10:58
Mece_one of the reasons I love my N900 is that I'm not stuck with a single library. gtk, qt, efl, liqbase... the more the merrier, that's what I say..10:59
Mece_Khertan1, I take it that simplifies things?10:59
rasterhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0FYVYtoAT4&feature=player_embedded10:59
rasterhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNys6l65K4o&feature=player_embedded10:59
rasterhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXK20xuislI&feature=player_embedded10:59
kwtmraster: Oh... I didn't realize that part.  So, ignore Bada and wait for something more linuxy to come out on Samsung?  Is there a name, like "Cada" or "Dada" or is that a secret?10:59
rastern900 compositor / gl drivers have quite a lot of issues tho for gl rendering stuff :(10:59
Mece_kwtm, Dodo perhaps10:59
rasterso fullscreen thigns are much faster as compositor turns off11:00
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rasterkwtm: dunno. call it slp for now :)11:00
ieatlintjust when i think efl is dead again... :P11:00
rastergoing to try and get proepr sdk and some os images and hw out sometime soonish11:00
rasternot final production smartphone stuff11:00
rasterfor now more beagle-boardy level hw11:01
rasterieatlint: not dead at all :)11:01
rasterdid alpha release last month11:01
ieatlinthehe11:01
ieatlinttakes me back to openmoko..11:01
kwtmraster: Okay, "SLP".  So in 12 months' time, about how many apps can I hope for on a Samsung SLP phone, compared to for Maemo5 on N900?11:01
kwtmieatlint: Yeah, I was going to go to OpenMoko but am glad I didn't.11:02
rasterkwtm: if you have a time machine i can jump into the future in..  let me borrow it and i'll let you know :)11:02
ieatlinti will say writing apps for efl wasn't bad at all -- once you get past the docs, heh11:02
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rasterkwtm: freerunner was crappy hw... totally opposite of samsung's babies :)11:03
rasternice hw11:03
rasterefl runs like a greased chicken on this11:03
raster:)11:03
kwtmraster: Okay, I know that was a big vague question, but let me be more specific.  SUppose someone wants to port some killer app to SLP --say, Vim.  So, how long would you estimate it would take a developer to port vim... a month?  A week?  Half a year?11:03
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rasterkwtm: its glibc. x11. standard fileutils11:04
kwtmraster: I have the ability to travel into the future, at a rate of 60 seconds per minute. :)11:04
rasterubuntu (basically) base11:04
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rasterfor vim u'd apt-get install vim :)11:04
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rasterbut i get the point11:04
rasteru  mean generic apps11:04
rasteru mean gui apps?11:04
rasterassuch we intentd to ship both efl and gtk and support both11:04
rasterefl right now is our primary internal toolkit as it frankly works better than anything else11:05
kwtmraster: Oh.  That's good news!  So, I'd estimate a delay of, say, about 3 months after the first developer version of the phone is released, and then a flood of stuff from Ubuntu after people have set up the infrastructure to port everything over?11:05
raster(and luckily they have me to make sure that in the event it doesnt... that changes)11:05
Mece_damn these interesting discussions. I'm totally missing this lecture...11:05
kwtmMece_: Wait, you're paying attention to the lecture?  Who do you think you are, some student or something? :D11:05
rasterkwtm: well as such ubuntu is already ported to arm. so it'd be a delay of.. lets say.. 0.11:05
raster:)11:05
kwtmraster: Wow.  Okay.  That's great.  Another "bottom line" question that should be easier to answer: in how many months do you expect this SLP phone to be available to the general public?11:06
kwtmMece_: What is the lecture about?11:07
rasterkwtm: "dunno"11:07
rastereven if i knew11:07
Stskeepsdear god, a ubuntu platform?11:07
Stskeeps:P11:07
raster"we dont release product schedules to the public"11:07
rasterStskeeps: hahahha11:07
merlin1991aka "when it's done"11:07
rasterthe fact that i'm talking at all about what we are doing is highly un-samsung11:08
kwtmraster: Okay, let me put it this way.  If I plan to buy another phone in June 2011, should I wait for samsung or buy whatever's available?11:08
rasterit's kind of a new thing about being open and playing by the open source rules/game11:08
rasterie giving back to community. complying with gpl/other oss licenses (well maybe screwing up but INTENDING to comply and willing to make good on it if we screw up)11:09
zutesmograster: Congrats on the approach, all I can see is I really hope it works out for you.11:09
rasterkwtm:  i'd wait for it. :)11:09
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kwtmWell, didn't Palm try the old "let's make it Linux so everyone will buy our phone" trick with the Palm Pre?  (Followed by the "hey why did all the developers run away just because we provided zero support"?)11:09
rasteras such samsung pestered me until i joine4d as they want oss "dna" in the group11:09
rasterthere area few others11:09
kwtmraster: Okay.  Well, looking forward to the Samsung Linux Phone, whatever it is.11:09
rasterwe've been beating the whole oss philosophy around11:10
Khertan1(Followed by the "hey why did all the developers run away just because we provided zero support"?) <<< no all developpers run away because the only language available was javascript11:10
rasteras such executive - ie next layer up from me, support the oss way.11:10
rasterits getting 100's of engineers to change their whole way of working/thinking that they have been doing for years/decades11:10
kwtmraster: If it helps you to convince the upper management any, know that I (and rmrfchik, I think) use the N900 because there is no alternative, and would seriously consider any competitor that lets us take advantage of already-existing apps on linux.11:10
RST38hraster: not engineers, managers11:11
kwtmraster: Yeah, I hear that personal computing in Korea is basically "Internet Explorer + ActiveX + Flash".11:11
RST38hraster: I doubt engineers care that much11:11
rasterkwtm: i know that very dearly. i have an nm900 myself for just that reason11:11
rasterRST38h:  actually u'd be amazed.11:11
RST38hraster: Well never worked with Koreans, but Chinese do not care that much: everyone is using LGPLed libraries anyway11:12
Mece_kwtm, advanced text-algorithms.11:12
rasterRST38h: managers care. "middle management"/engineering (middle management in engineering being principal engineers and senior engineers) are another matter11:12
ieatlintraster: my guess is that your biggest fight is going to be getting anyone in the general public to care11:12
rasterbut its changing for the better11:12
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rasterieatlint: yup11:13
ieatlintFOSS isn't going to sway them... seemingly 3rd party apps do11:13
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rasterieatlint: but i have to start somewhere11:13
ieatlintand creating a new platform that only samsung uses... good luck :)11:13
rasteras such what we have is rather sexy11:13
rasterand its smooth11:13
ieatlinti bet11:13
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rasterit is a full os under it11:13
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rasteritsd possible to write apps just like u do for a desktop linux box11:13
ieatlintefl is great for small devices... looks pretty, and is snappy11:13
kwtmieatlint: hear, hear. If you can get Gnumeric to run on the Samsungphone (using a fraction of the development effort), I think that's really going to sway the market.11:14
rasterso it lowers the barrier of entry for devs11:14
rasteri guess11:14
ieatlintsure -- but maemo and the n900 didn't get a swarm of people buying simply because you could install xchat11:14
rasterbut its a chicken and egg problem11:14
RST38hAs long as it is full Linux, it being samsung-proprietary does not matter11:14
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rastergeneral public like ooh nad ahh and sexy11:14
rasterbut that only lasts so long if u dont have content11:14
RST38hSame as Maemo being Nokia-proprietary does not matter that much11:14
kwtmieatlint: No, but I bet having Skype on the N900 did.  Too bad it's proprietary.  Stupid Skype.11:14
rasterRST38h:  indeed11:14
Mece_ieatlint, no, but it did get a whole bunch of exited nerds to buy it. Like me :)11:15
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rasteras such i'd pretty much think meego and slp will be very close in terms of os infra11:15
ieatlintRST38h: no, i'm not saying the problem is samsung owns it11:15
rasterporting between them should be a breeze11:15
rasteri dont see qt being not allowed11:15
ieatlintthe problem is if only samsung uses it, attracting developers without a userbase is hard11:15
rasterits just that sammy wont bother doing the work :)11:15
rasterie u get whatever the apt repos have11:15
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RST38hieatlint: If Samsung makes it sufficiently compatible with meegotouch and a few other platforms, it should be ok11:16
rmrfchikieatlint: samsung can just buy apps from core developers. to port famouse games/apps11:16
kwtmThat's great!  I can install Sucky Kubuntu for Samgsungphone!  "Now your phone can suck as much as your laptop!"11:16
ieatlintah, yeah, if it ran qt and could pull meego apps onto it without them looking like ass (and i mean more the theme fitting), it could do alright11:16
RST38hthat too, samsung has enough money to basically buy developers on case-by-case basis11:16
rasterkwtm:  hehehe11:16
* RST38h does not understand why people are so excited by qt11:17
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ieatlintbut then you're emphisising meego, and devs will look to create cross-platform apps with meego -- ruining the purported features of avoiding qt/c++ and sticking with efl11:17
rasterieatlint: well not like u have a gazillion meego apps... :)11:17
rasterso its all moot atm11:17
ieatlintalso, has efl added a proper widget library?11:17
raster:)11:17
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RST38hQt has been around for years now. There wasn't any commercially successful products with it, still none11:17
ieatlintyeah, i have similar doubts about meego's viability :)11:17
ieatlintbrb11:17
RST38hWhy not wait and see what Qt becomes with Nokia's support, then start cheering or booing11:17
rasteri suspect qt will improve a lot11:18
RST38hSo far, it is just getting bloated :)11:18
rasterpeople will still have preferences tho11:18
rmrfchikRST38h: you mean "mobile apps" or "desktop apps"?11:18
RST38hrmrfchik: either11:18
rmrfchikRST38h: hm, I'm sure, troll couldn't exist without selling.11:19
rmrfchikhttp://qt.nokia.com/qt-in-use11:19
zutesmogGoogle Earth uses QT.11:19
rasterit does indeed11:20
rasterqt works11:20
ieatlintRST38h: at the very least i'm pleased with what i've seen of libmeegotouch so far11:20
rmrfchiki'm pretty sure, there is a lot of commercial QT appls11:20
rasterits been used in many places11:20
rmrfchik*apps11:20
Mece_RST38h, qt has made a lot of progress lately though. QML in particular is very interesting, and that's fairly new iiuc11:20
RST38hrmrfchk: Of course trolls were selling it (and a whole lot more of support, I suspect)11:20
zutesmogand for a long time the only viable toolkit for cross platform (windows, linux and mac os/x)11:20
rasterqml stole a lot of ideas from efl11:20
rastergood to see :)11:20
RST38hrmrfchik: But do you remember any actual retail products based on Qt?11:21
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ieatlinthah, QML reminded me of edje when i first saw it11:21
rmrfchikRST38h: why?11:21
RST38hQtopia-running palmtops were one, but that is about it11:21
rasterRST38h: motorola ezx phones11:21
rasterrokr eg.11:21
rasterand others11:21
RST38hraster: long forgotten :)11:21
rasterieatlint: glad to be of inspiration :)11:21
rmrfchikretail is one of branch of industry11:21
rasterRST38h: sure. but it did come out retail :)11:21
RST38hMece: UI scripting (QML) has been known since Motif11:21
Mece_RST38h, in qt?11:22
rasterRST38h:  tcl/tk :)11:22
RST38hraster: Yes, but the keyword is "successful" ;)11:22
ieatlintedje was one thing i really liked about efl... fast, and you could replace a programs UI as long as you kept the object names the same11:22
rmrfchikmy company does a lot of software and only 3 retail box11:22
ieatlintwas awesome for building a ui11:22
RST38hraster: Let us not remember THAT (tcl/tk)11:22
rmrfchiklol, and one retail app is written in scheme ;)11:22
RST38hrmrfchik: REDUCE? =)11:24
rmrfchikPLT FTW!11:24
* rmrfchik is addicted to chicken though11:25
ieatlintchicken is awesome, and an extremely versatile meat11:25
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Mece_use of suffix trees to detect dna contaminations ftw!11:26
rmrfchikamagad11:27
rastermmm11:28
rastergreasy chicken11:28
rasterthe koreans love their hicken & hof11:28
rastererr11:28
rasterchicken & hof11:28
rmrfchikcallcc.org is your friend11:28
rmrfchikbe aware, scheme can change your life11:28
Mece_i suddenly have a craving for a footlong italian bmt from subway.11:29
* RST38h does not know what hof is, but most possibilities that come to mind look unhealthy11:29
rastergerman "hof"11:29
RST38hcanines and insects mostly11:29
rastercourtyard11:29
ieatlintraster: you living in korea now?11:29
rasterbasically they mean "beer hall" but that basically serves up lots of fried chicken11:29
rastertheres a good one in seoul city center11:30
rmrfchikRST38h: if you change koreans to chinese, even chicken becmae unhealthy11:30
RST38hrmrfchik: not sure I would like scheme to change my life11:30
rmrfchik*became11:30
raster$us12-13 get you all you can drink beer all night11:30
rasterieatlint:  yup.11:30
ieatlintgood beer though?11:30
RST38hraster: ah11:30
Mece_oo.. new version of witter out.11:31
rasterieatlint: ok beer.11:31
rasteri didnt move here fro the beer11:31
rmrfchikRST38h: you can't influence on it. you just be enligghted11:31
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rasteri moved here to realise my dream oif an awesome linux phone u can really develop cool stuff for11:31
raster:)11:31
ieatlinthaha... well, i'll be very curious to see what comes out11:31
rmrfchiklinux is not the aim.11:32
rmrfchikusability, openness ARE the aim11:32
rasterits a prerequisite :)11:32
rmrfchiklol, why?11:32
rastermy own sanity11:32
rmrfchiklinux kernel is already bloated, huge and is controlled by evil11:32
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ieatlintas far as i can tell though, asians only seem to be able to make light beers... and that has to be discouraging11:32
rasterby linux i mean muchmore than kernel11:32
alteregoI agree, you don't have the flexibility we have on any other mobile OS out there.11:33
rasterthe same linux 99% of the world referrs to11:33
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alteregoYeah, Android doesn't exactly cut it ..11:33
rasterlinux+gnu+x11 etc.11:33
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rmrfchiklet's look for hacker kernel! what we have here, hurd, darwin, plan9!11:33
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rasterand of coruse... e :)11:33
alteregoHeh, a plan 9 mobile :D11:33
ieatlinthow about freebsd? :P11:33
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rmrfchikieatlint: more of same11:33
alteregonetbsd would probably be more likely imo11:34
alteregoWith BSD licensing though we'd be screwed by vendors11:34
alteregoLike Apple have done ..11:34
rasterlikely11:34
RST38hrmrfchik: I think you should rewrite Linux kernel in Scheme11:34
rastergpl forced them to become partly open at least11:34
RST38halterego: Apple has done quite nicely though11:34
rmrfchiklinux/*bsd are all the same in general11:34
alteregoNokia could have easily done that, but they didn't.11:34
rasterand now they are beginnig to see value in it11:34
rasterafter being forced11:34
rmrfchikRST38h: this should be new brave OS11:35
alteregoRST38h: meh :P11:35
* RST38h does not think Nokia has made its OS choice based on the GPL/BSD split11:35
RST38hMost likely the people making the choice never heard of BSD. :)11:35
alteregoIndeed, they originally started maemo as a test to see what theycould do with Linux and FOSS11:35
* rmrfchik is looking for OS without files/proframs and other obsolete things11:35
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rmrfchikit's shame for notes applciation to ask to open file and ask to save file.11:36
alteregowindows 20?11:36
alteregoI'm sure they'll get their new FS finished eventually ^.^11:36
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rmrfchiki don't think this is achiveable with current OS/toolkits11:37
alteregoWhast's your problem with files?11:38
alteregoI think maybe more meangfull meta data properly associated with files is a good idea.11:38
alteregoI don't see wat else you'd have instead of them.11:38
alteregoUnless you do an Apple and just rename files to something else like "glossy-wank0juice" and say you invented something new.11:39
rmrfchikI don't like to open files. PalmOS showed me there is no such thing as files. And back in 199x, VisualAGE did this for programming11:39
* rmrfchik afk11:40
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meceasdf11:40
rasterrmrfchik: as such if your notes app dumbly stored notes in ~/notes11:40
alteregostill files, just hidden.11:41
rasterand simpyly lists all "n otes" in that dir on start11:41
rasterand auto-saves as u type11:41
rasterthere is no need11:41
alteregoDo files cease to exist if you don't have a file manager? :P11:41
rasterhahaha11:41
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Khertan1Morning again11:41
meceKhertan1, hi11:41
alteregoIf a file is created in the woods and there's no file manager to see it? Did it actually happen? :P11:41
rasteralterego:  df says "yes".11:42
alterego:D11:42
mecelol11:42
alteregoWell, df does't report filenames du on the other hand :)11:42
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dnearymorning11:42
mecealterego, I was pondering upon something with qml, wanna share some insights?11:43
alteregoHey dneary11:43
alteregomece: sure, go ahead.11:43
rasteralterego:  df will report tyhat more space was used up tho11:43
raster:)11:43
Khertan1mece: the version of KhtEditor in the git repository have now a QML Syntax hilight11:43
meceKhertan1, wow. That was fast!11:43
alteregoKhertan1: sweet! :)11:43
Khertan1mece: i ven't tested it, so not sure it s work as it s should11:43
meceKhertan1, ok, I'll test it.11:44
alteregoKhertan1: pyside/pyqt or Qt/C++?11:44
Khertan1pyqt411:44
meceKhertan1, where's the repo again?11:44
Khertan1http://gitorious.org/khteditor11:44
Khertan1be careful with replace and find ... it s a bit bugged but i didn't understand yet why11:45
alteregoKhertan1: what you using for your syntax highlighting engine?11:45
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* mece is cloning11:46
Khertan1alterego: a home made class derivated from qsyntaxhilighter for python, a home made qsyntaxhilighter for some other language which read rules from xml, and pygments for those which haven't any xml definition yet :)11:46
meceKhertan1, can I properly install this with the setup.py script?11:46
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Khertan1mece: it should works (except for depandancies)11:47
meceKhertan1, ok let's see :)11:47
alteregoKhertan1: cool, is that the same engine Qt Creator uses?11:47
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Khertan1alterego: not really, qtcreator use a higher engine which is derivated from qsyntaxhighlighter11:48
alteregoHrm, cool, I'd quite like Qt Creator to properly handle other file formats .. Like XML for instance :D11:48
meceKhertan1, seems to be missing plugins_api11:48
Khertan1but if you use pygtkeditor, i can suggest you to give a try to khteditor, even if not yet finished, it s faster11:48
Khertan1mece: hum ...11:48
mecealterego, khteditor is a million times faster and smoother though..11:48
alteregoYeah, I found pgtkeditor too sluggish, so I just stick with vi ^.^11:49
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mecealterego, I recommend trying khteditor. It's very nice imo.11:49
Khertan1just be careful with find and replace :)11:49
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Khertan1and if you want to participe to the dev you are welcome :)11:50
alteregoHeh, will do11:50
alteregoI'm stuck in Nokia SDK ast the moment though.11:50
RST38hPICO is still better than Qt Creator =)11:50
alteregoOnce I've finished my backlog.11:50
* RST38h hides11:50
Khertan1mece: i just add the missing plugin_api to the git repo11:50
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* mece is pulling11:51
Khertan1currently there is a pylint plugin which display result in a second window and when you double click on the error it show you the line in your code :)11:51
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mecewhy the hell doesn't my bash3 store my commands??11:52
mecegrr11:52
Khertan1i'm looking for help for fixing khweeteur dbus notifications11:52
zokiermece, check the permissions of ~/.bash_history11:52
RST38hmece: don't close the window, type exit11:52
meceRST38h, yeah, but if I close the window, ALL commands are gone :/11:53
mecezokier, hmm ok checking11:54
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meceKhertan1, plugins_api-py was in the wrong directory. moved it to root and everything worked fine.11:54
RST38hmece: Oh you mean it does not even store your current commands?11:55
Khertan1mece: to root ?11:55
meceKhertan1, root of repo. where the setup.py file is11:55
Khertan1hum ... should not be the case11:56
* Khertan1 is checking11:56
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meceKhertan1, ok. well it didn't find it. plugin_api is not a plugin, hence it shouldn't be in the plugins directory afaict.11:56
Khertan1mece: but for derivate reason, it s in it :)11:57
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Khertan1as else i cannot use the __subclasses__11:57
meceKhertan1, ok well it didn't work when it was there and it worked when I moved it to /...11:57
Khertan1mece: strange ...11:57
meceKhertan1, aye11:57
Khertan1ok i understood ... i have a pyo in my folder11:58
meceKhertan1, ok so where should it be?11:59
Khertan1i think i need to fix some code :)11:59
meceRST38h, bash3 stores .bash_history eventhough you close the window :) My .bash_history was owned by root, that was the problem.11:59
meceKhertan1, ok gonna test the qml stuff now anyway.12:00
RST38hah, that explains things =)12:00
meceKhertan1, it highlights some stuff..12:01
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Khertan1mece: did i forgot some rules ?12:02
meceKhertan1, I don't know how much it is suppose to highlight. It highlights the objects but not properties.12:02
meceKhertan1, For example "Rectangle" is highlighted but not "width"12:03
meceKhertan1, but it launches :D:D:D12:03
* mece cheers12:03
Khertan1:)12:04
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meceI tihnk I have to tweet that :)12:04
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meceKhertan1, do you mind if i link to the repo on twitter?12:05
Khertan1you can :)12:05
* merlin1991 wonders which maemo tweeters one should follow12:06
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fgs_merlin1991: I like sjgadsby's list, http://twitter.com/#/list/sjgadsby/maemo-org12:08
Khertan1arg the pylint plugin is broken12:08
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Khertan1noone have dbus skills ?12:27
Khertan1i'm trying to understand why my dbus-callback-default isn't called as it should in khweeteur12:27
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alteregoYour app names are funny :P12:28
Khertan1http://gitorious.org/khweeteur/khweeteur/blobs/master/khweeteur/__init__.py << source here12:28
Khertan1:)12:28
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ZogGKhertan1 it takes  lot of time to donload timeline and does it do it everytime from the begining, i mean no history or somethign?12:35
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Khertan1ZogG: depends on version there was a bug in 0.0.32, 0.0.33, 0.0.3412:41
Khertan1in 0.0.35 it didn't take too much time12:41
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ZogGi don't know wich one i had12:41
Khertan1old tweets are cached12:42
ZogGas well i reported false bug =)12:42
Khertan1ZogG: about menu12:42
Khertan1:)12:42
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Khertan1and it try to got from twitter api only the last tweet12:42
ZogGKhertan1, i didn't used it for several days and it was updated yesterday so can't tell you in what version =))12:42
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Khertan1it could be faster if twitter api has been though before they code it12:42
Khertan1but this isn't the case12:43
ZogGKhertan1 can you make mentions section?12:43
Khertan1and for some feature it require many calls12:43
Khertan1ZogG: section ?12:43
ZogGi mean like in web - when i see only my mentions12:43
ZogGwhere i have @ZogG i.e.12:43
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Khertan1actually mention are unified in the same view12:44
ZogGthat what i meant12:44
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ZogGi want to see all replies and my mentions separetly =)12:44
Khertan1yep ... currently doing separations in the different mention, replies, dm isn't in the roadmap12:45
Khertan1the purpose as the start was to have a unified view contrary to other twitter client that split it in many windows12:45
Khertan1something that i didn't like12:45
Khertan1i think i ll implement a feature to split them ...12:45
Khertan1but not for the moment12:46
Khertan1i ve somethings to fix before like the notifications12:46
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ZogGKhertan1 i think some programs should use swipe screen thing12:46
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ZogGas n900 has feature to swipe from outta screen (left or right)12:47
ZogGlike in microb when you swipe to get mouse12:47
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Khertan1ZogG: but none framework permit to have access to it12:47
Khertan1ZogG: the only way i see to do a such feature is to play with xlib12:48
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ZogGKhertan1 hmm the numthy physics has it12:49
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LantiziaHey will dalvik run on anything but android yet?12:55
LantiziaI'm thinking maemo/mer/meego/moblin etc12:55
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alteregoLast 24 what can happen in ten minutes?!?""12:58
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alteregonyargh!13:00
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ZogGalterego, hey, there are kids here13:03
* ZogG hides MohammadAG5113:03
dsgAny ideas what could be wrong if the GUI apps can't save files even though the fs is fine?13:04
dsg"Memory not accessible. Unable to save content." error from camera app, "Memory card not found." from backup13:04
ZogGdsg try to reboot13:04
ZogGhad the same thing13:04
dsg(this is after changing my partitioning layout, but /home and /home/user/MyDocs are mounted13:04
dsgZogG: yep, twice13:04
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ZogGcheck if it's not full and wherwe does it save13:04
ZogGdsg is it mmc?13:04
dsg /dev/mapper/homeunlocked 1.9G    188.3M      1.7G  10% /home13:05
dsg /dev/mapper/mydocsunlocked 9.4G    352.7M      9.0G   4% /home/user/MyDocs13:05
dsgIt's encrypted partitions on the MMC13:05
ZogGpermissions?13:05
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dsgZogG: Yeah, all correct (I tried setting them to 777 even)13:08
dsgThis is a copy of the default homedir with 'rsync -avx'13:10
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ZogGdsg why would you copy13:14
ZogGtry to make new home dir13:14
gvoicehello, i would like to ask how can i use gvoice on n900 internet tablet ?13:14
ZogGand than copy all contect13:14
ZogGand than remap mount13:14
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dsgZogG: To encrypt the home folder.13:16
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ZogGgvoice little bit, don't use pm if you can ask here13:16
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dsg(it's all working, but I guess there's some app that starts before this is mounted, or ke-recv probes somehow)13:17
ZogGdsg how do you mount it?13:17
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fluxdsg, check file permissions13:18
fluxdsg, I heard there are similar issues when going from fat to ext313:18
gvoicecan you please help me how can i call using gvoice from n90013:19
mecewhat do i need to install to play an ogv file? what's the library called?13:19
ZogGgvoice, never tried it, have you read thru tmo topic?13:19
gvoiceyeah13:19
ZogGmece ogv? what's that?13:19
mece(don't want to start appmanager13:19
gvoicei tried searching at maemo.org13:19
meceZogG: a vorbis video I believe.13:20
ZogGmece, have you tried extrenal codecs package?13:20
alteregovlc?13:20
ZogGgvoice it's google voice right?13:20
gvoiceyeah13:21
ZogGmece try to run it in console in mplayer or vlc, i bet it would say what codec is missing13:21
DocScrutinizerdsg: I'd not be surprised camera to get a hickup with non-VFAT still13:21
ZogGgvoice i think i saw several posts on tmo13:21
mecehmm don't feel like installing them right now.13:21
viszgvoice, to a landline / mobile?13:21
ZogGdsg maybe you should search for bug in bugzilla and if there is no-one - report it?13:22
viszoh, right, that's what gvoice is13:22
ZogGmece i have player and package for extra codecs so mkv and flac and other stuff works for me13:22
viszgtalk calls work out of box for me13:22
DocScrutinizerdsg: also camera-ui is preloaded in init aiui. If your fs isn't unlocked then, you at very least might to have to 'killall camera-ui"13:23
cheriffhi, it seems if  the boot process falls for whatever reason, it just reboots. Is there some switch to see boot messages, avoid the reboot, or log somewhere? I see the 'knightrider' dots and then reboot ...13:23
gvoicevisz mobile13:24
DocScrutinizercheriff: too bad, search for 'bootloop' in chanlogs and wiki/tmo13:24
cheriffDocScrutinizer: thanks for the keyword tip!13:25
DocScrutinizercheriff: basically your options are R&D or reflash, or a rescue system if you installed any and can get to bootmenu13:26
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meceogv is ogg theora, I guess libtheora0 is what I need?13:28
meceoh I already have that. damn13:28
meceogg-support meta package perhaps?13:29
meceah yes. gstreamer plugin was missing.13:29
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dsghmm, it seems trackerd is also just indexing /. In media player I have all the little ping and pong sounds and the startup "hands" video, but nothing else13:34
dsgMaybe my gconf is fubar.13:34
SpeedEvilThat can also be a symptom of emmc-failure13:35
dsgSpeedEvil: emmc isn't used here (I've remounted home and MyDocs)13:35
cheriffDocScrutinizer: ah, i wasnt woried about the brick of the loop, i just trying to find whats actually happening13:36
SpeedEvilWhat do you mean?13:36
DocScrutinizerlo SpeedEvil13:37
SpeedEvillo13:38
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: dsg has a crypted fs13:38
DocScrutinizerI strongly doubt mp4 vids will happily safe to it anyway13:39
DocScrutinizerjust for missing CPU grunt13:39
gvoiceis anyone using google voice on n900 ? i need some help ;/13:39
SpeedEvilNot here.13:39
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gvoiceoh, i i wanted to ask, is it possible to transfer sms history to pc ?13:40
* rmrfchik is avoiding to do messaging on N900. it so f.cking slow13:40
mecehmm ogg-support seems to have fucked up some stuff. I think i need to restart tracker13:40
DocScrutinizersorry, my email and voicecals don't need any indexind by google13:40
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gvoicei have been chatting with some people since like 6 months ago and i would like to save this messaging history to my computer, is it possible ?13:42
DocScrutinizerjust out of curiosity: is Andridiot using 4.4.4.4/8.8.8.8 by default now?13:43
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mecehmm.. can one get the id of a window on the n900?13:47
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DocScrutinizermece: lrn2ask13:51
meceDocScrutinizer, :) never mind, it was not the problem.13:52
DocScrutinizermece: for your convenience: http://www.made-in-china.com/Construction-Decoration-Catalog/Plastic-Window.html  can be called in microb as well13:54
DocScrutinizerlots of IDs13:54
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merlin1991L M A O13:56
wazdhrw: hello again :)13:56
wazdhrw: I just wanted to ask if I can translate your great article bout Qt UI design for russian students :)13:57
ZogGwazd,  why not?13:58
* RST38h moos at wazd evilly13:58
ZogGif you refer to original and author13:58
ZogGwazd, are you teacher13:58
wazdRST38h: o/ :)13:58
wazdZogG: not quite :)13:59
wazdZogG: anyway, I prefer to ask first :)13:59
ZogGwazd so?13:59
DocScrutinizeryeah, PC13:59
ZogGwazd, you are .....? communist? =)13:59
RST38hwazd: any news on that applet project?13:59
RST38hZogG: With a nick like that, I would not ask =)14:00
ZogGRST38h, it's only known in russia, for others it's hero from astroboy14:00
DocScrutinizer???14:00
ZogGRST38h, you would laught but i'm from israel14:01
wazdRST38h: not quite, we're trying to figure out how to get that awesome irish visa :)14:01
DocScrutinizerdamn commies14:01
hrwwazd: sure, you can.14:01
hrwwazd: leave author information and link to blog post.14:01
wazdhrw: sure :)14:01
hrwwazd: and I will like to get a copy and link so will add on my page14:01
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RST38hZogG: Exactly!14:03
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DocScrutinizer~translate ru, en ZogG14:04
RST38hZogG: And of course it is known, do you think Russians invented it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_Occupation_Government14:05
RST38hZogG: Rates somewhere between Little Green Men and Cthulhu in Internet popularity14:05
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ZogGRST38h, DocScrutinizer is german and didn't know14:06
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ZogGin their country they think there are no more left of people like me =)))14:06
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rmrfchikwazzup14:06
RST38hZogG: I actually wonder if Robert Harris' "Fatherland" is allowed in Germany14:07
RST38hZogG: 'cause despite being clearly antinazi, it probably violates every second letter of the German law about the subject14:07
ZogGdidn't read or know bout it14:08
* DocScrutinizer tells TAsn to meet MohammadAG51 to rush over ZogG together14:08
ZogGMohammadAG51 likes me =))14:08
ZogGi hope14:08
ZogGRST38h i don't like any fanatic point of view14:09
ZogGthere are no right in there14:09
ZogGbeyond them i mean14:09
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jacktheripperis it dangerous to install from the fremantle sdk repo on the actual tablet ?14:09
SpeedEvilUsually not.14:09
jacktheripperI need zlib1g-dev14:10
SpeedEvilbut nothing there is optified14:10
jacktheripperit's removed from extras-devel14:10
jacktheripperoh14:10
DocScrutinizerZogG: don't joke about my suffering from this shitty country I live in14:10
jacktheripperbut zlib1g-dev wouldn't have to be optified right ?14:10
SpeedEvilFor one library, it's not a risk as I understand it.14:10
DocScrutinizerZogG: otoh your government seems even worse14:11
ZogGi hate any goverment14:11
DocScrutinizer~government14:11
infobothmm... government is broken.  It doesn't work.  It doesn't keep our streets safe and it doesn't educate our children. Government is good at only one thing: It breaks your legs, hands you a pair of crutches, and says, 'See, without us you wouldn't be able to walk.'.  Libertarians need to STFU14:11
ZogGmy goverment are old pricks that wouldn't care bout nothing but money14:11
ZogGthey are in there from the begging of israel14:12
rmrfchikZogG: wow, are you also from russia? o_O14:12
ZogGrmrfchik i don't live there for past 10 years14:12
rmrfchikit was joke/14:12
DocScrutinizerthough this statement isn't exactly what I think a government _should_ do, I'm d'accord with the notion what it actually does do to you14:13
rmrfchiks/israel/russia. nothing will change in your statement14:13
RST38hDoc: Hey, you said Germany was cool?14:13
DocScrutinizerRST38h: eeh?14:13
DocScrutinizerME??14:14
DocScrutinizerI even hate the concept of nations14:14
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DocScrutinizerso much I honestly considered trying to get a UN passport14:15
* lolloo thought he was in a politcal channel.14:15
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RST38hDoc: You do understand that UN is a cover organization for the aliens? =)14:16
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RST38hDoc: Who are, of course, conspire with ZogG to rule the world, etc14:17
DocScrutinizercool, home at last :-P14:17
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ZogGRST38h, wazd i have some arguments about maemo vs iOS on russian chan - wana join? =)14:18
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RST38hZogG channel name?14:19
wazdZogG: oh my :)14:19
RST38hI hope it is not #apple_ru ort something?14:19
DocScrutinizermeh yuck14:19
rmrfchikRST38h: who knows, who knows14:20
RST38hOMG14:20
RST38hZogG: You know what, I am already banned there! Never visited this cesspit, but I guess they are always vigilant14:21
RST38hZogG: No, that is not how average NNM poster looks14:25
ZogGsay waht?14:25
ZogGit's not really nnm14:25
ZogGnot anymore14:25
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RST38hZogG: Have to check lurkmore for news then :)14:26
ZogGi don't visit these kind of sites14:26
ZogGhabr welinux and lor14:27
ZogGjust for reading14:27
RST38hZogG: anyways, I do not think it is worth arguing with the jobs-bitten14:28
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RST38hZogG: if you want fun, try the baptists, the apple nuts are too boring14:29
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ZogGRST38h one of them is applefag and other normal guy but he is thinking maemo and meego rip =)14:30
ZogGRST38h i like that kind of arguing =)14:31
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RST38hZogG: Only if you convince them to commit suicide at the end and we get the video14:35
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RST38hZogG: Otherwise, it is pointless.14:35
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pigeonis there a reason not to use gcc/g++ 4.4 in the maemo/scratchbox? default install seems to be 4.214:36
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RST38hpigeon: probably causes random warnings/errors with the base packages14:37
RST38hpigeon: alternatively, when the current scratchbox has been created, 4.4 may not have been mature enough14:38
jacktheripperI'm trying to compile an application. Compiling returns errors with weird characters such as "src/main.cpp:177: error: â?~BACKSCREENâ?T was not declared in this scope". I got the source off maemo.org. What could be wrong ?14:38
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jacktheripperseems like a matter of encoding14:39
RST38hjacktheripper: probably unicode quote marks14:39
DocScrutinizer(<RST38h> ZogG: if you want fun) anti-vegan14:40
RST38hDoc: Actually, yes14:40
jacktheripperRST38h, and g++ doesn't read unicode ?14:40
RST38hDoc: Or any animal lovers in general. Dog ladies, cat ladies, etc14:40
crashanddiejacktheripper: there's unicode, and then there's unicode14:41
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ZogGjacktheripper are you sure it's unicode there?14:41
RST38hjacktheripper: I have no idea what caused the error message itself14:41
RST38hjacktheripper: so, cannot answer your question14:41
jacktherippernot sure yet.14:41
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crashanddiejacktheripper: how about you just post the code in question on a pastebin so we can have a look?14:42
jacktheripperit's ANSI. And those characters in the error messages don't exist when I view it.14:42
crashanddiejacktheripper: a lot of people in this channel are good, but still14:43
jacktheripperok sure wait a sec14:43
crashanddiewhat do you view it with/14:43
crashanddie?14:43
jacktheripperit's available on maemo.org. But I'll post it here14:43
jacktherippernotepad2 on windows.14:43
crashanddiethen post a link?14:43
jacktheripperyes I'll post a link here, sec14:43
crashanddieand AFAIK, notepad2 supports unicode garbage.14:44
jacktheripperit does14:44
lcukjacktheripper, dos2unix those files14:44
ZogGcrashanddie \о/14:45
lcukfrom linux14:45
jacktheripperit's not there for maemo ?14:45
crashanddieZogG: I didn't say I understood unicode14:45
lcukand paste the link where you got them from14:45
crashanddielcuk: why, exactly?14:45
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ZogGcrashanddie i mean hi14:45
lcukcos windows infects them often enough i just disinfect mine on a regular basis :P14:46
crashanddielcuk: d2u would only make sense if he edited the files on windows with an editor that it nix-agnostic14:46
lcukif he copied/pasted from browser14:46
lcukon windows14:46
DocScrutinizermoo lcuk14:46
lcukhe will have the crlf14:46
DocScrutinizerlo crashanddie14:46
crashanddiestill has nothing to do with the error message presented14:46
lcukcos thats how it rolls14:46
jacktheripperit actually might be a line ending problem with notepad214:47
lcukwell thats what i want to see the wiki itself for14:47
jacktheripperyeah line endings are set to windows :S14:47
ZogGdon't you have better editor in win?14:47
jacktheripperthat's the best editor imo. It provides an option. Nothing wrong with it14:48
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ZogGor we can copy and save it in file and upload to you14:48
jacktheripperNoma, not a line ending prob. I'll post the link14:48
jacktheripperhttp://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/source/p/psx4all/psx4all_0.3.9.tar.gz14:48
jacktheripperuhh not Noma14:48
jacktherippernick completion :S14:48
jacktheripper*no14:48
RST38hDoc: Btw, there are targets better than vegans14:49
lolloojacktheripper, what is that app?14:49
jacktherippera psx emulator14:49
RST38hDoc: *Twitter users*14:49
DocScrutinizerlol14:49
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RST38hDoc: Can be harassed by saying, informatively, "Just took a shit."14:50
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jacktheripperthat was the source. On compiling. It gives these errors http://pastebin.com/VFQafPwc14:50
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ZogGRST38h i'm twitter user =014:52
jacktheripperguys, nevermind, sorry for the trouble. I'll just compile it on scratchbox, it was meant to be anyway.14:52
lcukjacktheripper, those arent unicode errors14:52
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lcukthats your compiler trying to colorise the output14:52
jacktheripperand the windows terminal doesn't support it, sweet.14:53
lcukand because you miss minimal.h14:53
jacktheripperI'm sshing from windows, that's why it happens14:53
lcukits making loads of stuff fail14:53
RST38hZogG: And I just took a shit!14:53
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jacktheripperthanks14:53
ZogGRST38h, meh, not that kinda user =)14:54
RST38hZogG: You should ask wazd about him and a tent-ful of twitter users =)14:54
ZogGi just post when i'm on bus and mostly reply14:54
ZogGRST38h, https://twitter.com/Shlegel/status/2492094854314:55
lcukjacktheripper, you lack installing the build-depends14:55
ZogGnot me =)14:55
lcukon the scratchbox, make sure the same source repository is available that you got the source from14:56
lcuk"and use apt-get builddep [package]" or similar to install all the build dependencies needed14:56
lcuklike the gp2x libraries etc14:56
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pigeonRST38h: so i should stick with 4.2? what about 4.3?14:58
lcukRST38h, are you still in US?14:58
RST38hpigeon: you should check the list of available gcc toolchains14:58
RST38hpigeon: and use the latest one, unless you start having problems, then use the older one14:59
RST38hpigeon: AFAIK, sb2 offers gcc 4.4.3 or something as the latest toolchain14:59
RST38hDunno about sb114:59
RST38hlcuk: Nope, back to .ru14:59
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pigeonRST38h: yeah, i can see 4.3.5 and 4.4.4 available15:00
RST38hUse the latest one, it is supposed to generate better ARM code15:00
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jacktheripperlcuk: thank you, I'm rebooting15:00
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RST38hmoo lardman15:17
lardmanhey RST38h15:17
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lcuk\o15:18
lardmanhi lcuk15:18
lcukhey lardman how goes your monday?15:19
lardmanwork PC PSU knackered, so walked back home15:19
lardmanbut not too bad, got a load of conferences out of the way, so can do some work now, which is nice :)15:19
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lcukyeah15:22
lcuksimon i still wonder how to handle that barcode picture from barcelona15:22
lardmanwhich one was that?15:23
lardman(as I never made it over there :(15:23
lcukhttp://liqbase.net/liq.barcode.advert.barcelona.for.lardman.20091204_002.jpg15:24
lardmanpluggable camera app is the way forward, give the option of a button toopen a Google Goggles type app15:24
lcukit was on the billboard near the hotel15:24
lardman:)15:24
lcukits like identifying the individual flowers hen you have a bunch15:24
lardmanthat will work - zbar will return multiple barcodes (all the same in this instance)15:24
mgedminso, is there a home widget for going online/offline with a single tap?15:25
lardmanafaiu anyway15:25
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ZogGi wonder, if i can port maemo to x86?15:25
lardmanmgedmin: I also feel the pain of trying to disconnect and needing to wait for the pop up to be filled with new connections15:25
lardmanZogG: yes15:25
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mgedminlardman, so that's a no then?15:26
lcuki havent heard of one yet15:26
lardmanmgedmin: I've not seen anything15:26
lcukbut it will emerge sometime15:26
ZogGmgedmin i think there is for power button15:26
ZogGjust today15:26
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ZogGmgedmin, talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=6047315:28
ZogGthis one is good enuf?15:28
smharanyone using DreamRemote with DB7000 model?15:29
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mgedminZogG, I'd prefer a home widget ...15:30
ZogGtalk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=47623&highlight=widget+offline15:30
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ZogGmaybe this one can do the trick15:31
lardmanare there any new and decent calendar apps out?15:31
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* mgedmin is trying --- oh the app manager sucks, I can't see the name of the thing I just installed while it's busy burning my CPU to ashes15:31
lardmanindeed15:31
mgedminConnectNow, I think15:32
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mgedminseems to work -- one tap, a 6 second pause (because the app manager is still burning CPU), and I'm offline15:32
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mgedminwaaah either my n900 needs a RAM upgrade, or FBReader needs some optimization15:32
* lardman considers the things that drive him mad with the N900 - calendar, HAM, maps; and then considers that these are things that get the most use too15:33
mgedminhm, ConnectNow hardcodes the connection name instead of using my wifi when it's available15:34
mgedminbut at least it'll work for "go offline now, I want my battery to last"15:34
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lcuklardman, and I am still taking photos of maps and stuff15:36
mgedminthe configuration dialog has a mysterious slider set to 96, I've no idea what it means15:36
mgedminsize of the icon?15:36
mgedminyes15:37
lcukbuswhat mysterious slider o_O15:37
lcuk-bus15:37
mgedminthe icon has no padding, grr this is going to irritate me all the time15:37
mgedminZogG, thanks, I think that's precisely the widget that I found by scrolling the list of Desktop apps in app-manager15:38
* lcuk needs a coffee machine15:39
mgedmin(app-manager sorts them by I Don't Know What, and doesn't let me change the sort order, grr wtf grr)15:39
lcukbarisione, your ballpark, can i get one with a hose that will just keep my cup filled up?15:39
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mgedminI think it *used* to let me switch between "by name" and "by size", and I'd switched to "by size", and I think it still remembers that in gconf somewhere even though it no longer lets me change the order15:39
mgedminwhich is crackful if true15:39
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mgedminoh fun, supposedly there's a hildon-desktop bug that makes it drain my battery if I add connectnow?15:42
mgedminhttp://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=815339&postcount=10115:42
mgedminhow's that possible?  why connectnow, specifically?15:42
lcukthats been fixed then15:43
lcukjust pending update15:43
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lcukmgedmin, i have a single widget that crashes on closure15:43
lcukothers dont15:43
lcuki just missed something off on that one place15:43
mecehm trying to capture screen with ffmpeg, but I dunno which encoder I should use. what is recommended on n900?15:44
lcukmece, so you want a video capture?15:45
lcukfor a screencast15:45
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mecelcuk yah15:45
mecelcuk, just a file15:45
mecelcuk anything. I just don't know what the encoders are called.15:45
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lcukidk, the only time i tried to do a screencast i used vnc2swf or something15:46
mecewas gonna do something like ffmpeg -an -s 800x480 -r 25 -f x11grab -i :0.0 -vcodec something aoutput.something15:46
mecei want to record what i do on screen15:47
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mececompiled recordmydesktop, but I only got one misscolored frame so I figured I'd give ffmpeg a go15:48
lcukheh15:49
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meceso for example h.264 wtf is the name of the encoder?15:50
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MohammadAG51anyone pinged?15:51
lardmanmp4v is the FOURCC used by the built-in recoprder15:51
mecemp4v? ok.15:51
mecehmm15:51
meceunknown encoder15:51
lardmanyeah, just looking at the output of GSpot15:51
MohammadAG51hmm indeed15:51
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MohammadAG51someone at school got an N90015:52
MohammadAG51an admin even (argh)15:52
MohammadAG51Nokia Messaging doesn't work for him15:52
MohammadAG51keeps prompting for a pass, any ideas?15:52
lcukenter the correct password would be a start15:52
Stskeepspoint him to tmo15:52
luke-jrpeople use that?15:52
meceLOL15:52
mecewhat luke-jr said!15:53
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MohammadAG51i'm suspecting yahoo imap/pop needs a pass15:53
MohammadAG51err, a subscription15:53
MohammadAG51Stskeeps, we have enough trolls ty15:53
MohammadAG51lcuk, he's been doing it all week15:53
lcukeep15:53
lcuki believe texrat uses it15:54
lcukso could get some input from him15:54
MohammadAG51NM? I use it too15:54
lcukso have you tried putting your credentials into his device15:54
lcukto confirm it actually works15:54
luke-jrMohammadAG51: no, not NetworkManager!15:54
lcukthen say "noob" at him and tell him to enter correct details ;)15:54
lardmanmece: of course the encoder and player both use GStreamer15:54
MohammadAG51hmm, good idea, i'll try that tomorrow15:55
MohammadAG51lcuk, well, different accounts15:55
MohammadAG51Yahoo sucks15:55
MohammadAG51he uses that15:55
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* MohammadAG51 uses GMail, Hotmail and Live (different addies)15:55
MohammadAG51ShadowJK, is there a way to check if a battery is fake?15:56
mecelardman, found libtheora.. let's see15:56
ShadowJKtake it apart15:56
lcukMohammadAG51, if you actually show him that Nokia Messaging works15:56
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lcukit becomes less a device issue15:56
MohammadAG51ShadowJK, SW methods?15:56
lardmanmece: you could try using ximagesrc as a source for a gst pipeline, no idea if it would work mind you15:56
lcukand gives him more confidence to move past it if hes blocking15:56
ShadowJKMohammadAG51, no15:56
MohammadAG51even lshal?15:56
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MohammadAG51The N900's keyboard rocks (when it's new at least)15:58
mgedminit sure does15:58
MohammadAG51his is matte-y, mine is glossy a bit15:58
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MohammadAG51and it's not oil15:58
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MohammadAG51the slider's also a bit tight on new devices15:59
MohammadAG51makes me wanna buy a new N900 :P15:59
lcuki wonder how easy it would be to tighten up slider15:59
MohammadAG51tape does it well15:59
lcuk:|15:59
MohammadAG51at least that's what tehkseven (Jon) did15:59
lcuki took apart an x3 the other day and repaired its screen15:59
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MohammadAG51the slider also has a nice click16:00
MohammadAG51mine doesn't click when I close it slowly16:00
lcukindeed16:00
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lcukmine does16:01
lcukbut the screen face is out of alignment by about 1mm16:01
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* lcuk hit the roof on n900fly16:02
ShadowJKMohammadAG51, well, some fake batteries show up with stupid design.capacity on lshal. Some don't.16:02
MohammadAG51 battery.reporting.design = 1264  (0x4f0)  (int)16:03
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ShadowJKAnd then another sign is when battery meter suddenly drops from somthing large-ish to empty16:05
MohammadAG51is 2 bars largish?16:05
MohammadAG51or about 316:05
MohammadAG51hmm16:06
MohammadAG51Battery low16:06
ShadowJKThe bars are useless16:06
MohammadAG51it wasn't exactly low...16:06
MohammadAG51201 mAh is low?16:06
MohammadAG51wtf16:06
meceuh how do I do a wait and then execute command on one line?16:06
mecein shell16:06
ShadowJK201 according to what?16:06
MohammadAG51battery.reporting.current = 201  (0xc9)  (int)16:07
mecelike sleep 5 | do stuff16:07
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ShadowJKMohammadAG51, usually that becomes 5 at battery low16:07
MohammadAG51&& or ;16:07
MohammadAG51ShadowJK, yeah I know16:07
MohammadAG51but it shows 201 on this battery (I have 3)16:07
MohammadAG512 of them behave, this doesn't16:07
MohammadAG51it kinda looks fishy too16:07
ShadowJKBut anyway, you need like 2 measurements close together in time, plus the third battery low one to say anything.. as the meter is lazily updated you might just be looking at the hours old value when you come out of standby16:08
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ShadowJKI'd disassemble it :-)16:08
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* lcuk ponders an afternoon beer16:08
Jef91Is there an easy way to list which programs are using up how much space on my n900?16:08
MohammadAG51ShadowJK, is disassembling it easy?16:08
Jef91I have 1.2gig used in my /home and I don't have that much installed XD16:08
lardmanlcuk: :)16:08
lcuklardman, long weekend ftw16:08
MohammadAG51du -h /opt16:08
lcukit feels like sunday16:09
ShadowJKMohammadAG51, probably not :)16:09
lardmanlcuk: ah, nice16:09
ShadowJKirreversible too :D16:09
dsgCould someone send me their output of "gconftool -R /system/osso/af/mmc" from a working phone? thx :)16:09
MohammadAG51I guessed so xD16:09
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meceah got it16:09
MohammadAG51ShadowJK, X-Ray? :P16:09
lardmanJef91: maps perhaps?16:09
mece(sleep 5; command)16:09
MohammadAG51<MohammadAG51> && or ;16:09
Jef91lardman Sygic resides in /home/MyDocs or are you talking about maemo maps?16:10
DocScrutinizerand why the () ?16:10
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MohammadAG51& for at the same time (i.e don't wait for the previous one to exit)16:10
lardmanJef91: Mappero perhaps?16:10
MohammadAG51it's /home/user/MyDocs16:10
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Jef91whatevs mohammad :P16:10
lardmanJef91: just cd to the dir and issue du > somefile.txt16:10
Jef91mappero eats up space lardman? I know I have that installed16:11
lardmanyeah, the map tiles do16:11
mgedmindsg, http://pastie.org/116994316:11
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lardmanMohammadAG51: and && requires that the previous command does not fail of course16:11
dsgmgedmin: Thanks16:11
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MohammadAG51dsg,  internal-mmc-corrupted = false16:12
MohammadAG51 mmc-corrupted = true16:12
MohammadAG51ext3 ^16:12
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Jef91God installing things from ovi takes a year and a half16:13
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lardmanI've never even looked at Ovi16:15
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* MohammadAG51 uses apt to install from Ovi16:15
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Jef91has some decent games16:15
RST38hprobably haven;t missed much16:15
Jef91mohammandag51 is there a package list somewhere for the ovi packages?16:15
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kwtmlardman: Same here, never looked at Ovi after trying Ovi Maps. Either there is something major I am missing, or they hired some high school student to design the interface for a summer job.16:16
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Jef91anyone know what is up with nokia taking the n900 off their US website?16:17
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kwtmJef91: Anything from Ovi Store worth looking at, besides games?16:17
Jef91Uhh. No not really.16:17
ShadowJKNokia USA has never done anything consistent and logical afaik :-)16:17
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Jef91Only non-FOSS apps on my n900 are games and sygic16:18
lardmankwtm: :)16:18
psycho_oreosthere's some utilities on ovi, stuff like spirit level16:18
lardmanis Ovi a web page?16:18
lardmanor a webapp?16:18
Jef91Basically.16:18
Jef91Webpage16:18
Jef91you can actually view on a PC16:19
Jef91and send the apps to the n90016:19
lardmanwhich then uses HAM to do the installation?16:19
Jef91HAM?16:19
rmrfchikJef91: you deleted phone application???16:19
lardmanhildon application manager16:19
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Jef91ahh - yes lardman16:19
rmrfchikbrave man!16:19
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lardmanJef91: well that's the major problem, it would really have been better imho to integrate the Ovi store in the HAM app16:20
Jef91Yep16:20
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lardmanand at the same time do the useful things one gets on Android/iPhone like bg installs, ratings and reviews all integrated16:20
Jef91fully agree16:20
Jef91pfff16:21
Jef91Lardman.16:21
Jef91If you keep talking logic like this.16:21
Jef91Someone from nokia is going to hunt you down16:21
lardmanlol16:21
Jef91And well, maybe put you on the payroll16:21
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psycho_oreosthere has always been an issue with paying for applications that required payment.. that plus the fact that I think n900 was rushed to be released, with the UI lacking many usability it goes to show nothing was thought thoroughly and done thoroughly16:21
lardmanI've done my fair share of talking to the Nokia devs16:22
mgedminpsycho_oreos, nokia always acknowledged that n900 was not ready for the mainstream user16:22
Jef91fully agree psycho_oreos pr1.216:22
Jef91should have been the release OS16:22
mgedmin"step 4 out of 5"16:22
rmrfchiklol, nokia harmless. they can't manage to make good software, how can the manage to hunt man down? this is much harder ;)16:22
Jef91apt-get install kroll is giving me "E:Handler silently failed"16:22
Jef91What does that mean? Been using apt-get on desktop distros awhile now and never seen that16:23
psycho_oreosmgedmin, its quite sad really, especially if you're expecting a linux on a phone feature and something that isn't android based... here you have it16:23
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lardmanAnyway hopefully things will be different with Meego16:23
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Jef91Things better be different with meego16:23
mgedminpsycho_oreos, I'm guessing you never had an 77, n800 or a n81016:23
Jef91although RPMs scare me16:23
mgedminthe n900 was such a big leap forward, I didn't believe it wasn't ready when I first saw it16:23
psycho_oreosmgedmin, that's correct, I got n900 was because it was available from a regular mobile phone shop16:24
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lardmanwhat scares me is the chasm like gap between anything being released16:24
* MohammadAG51 hates RPM16:24
Jef91+1 mohammandag5116:24
Jef91Even PCLinuxOS (which uses apt to manage rpms) blows most of the time.16:24
zutesmog+116:24
* psycho_oreos hates RPM but thinks we don't have a choice with meego, its either you go with the flow or you choose something else16:24
lardmanmakes no odds to me as long as it works, not too bothered about the technical trade-offs16:24
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Jef91Well,16:25
Jef91I am hoping with intel in on the whole meego things16:25
Jef91shit will actually get done right16:25
rmrfchikpsycho_oreos: correct question has the answer! ...choose something else ;)16:25
lardmanwell the underlying systems weren't too bad in Maemo, just some apps were really rather annoying16:25
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Jef91anyone else here know of/lurk /r/n900? - http://www.reddit.com/r/n900/16:26
mgedminlardman, I've started to seriously doubt the decision to use a swap partition on a phone16:27
psycho_oreosmgedmin, to me, NIT without phone functionality wasn't of much use to myself. Granted NIT was targeting for those who wants a MID computer but for me I wanted one that not only has mini computer capabilities but also a phone, so its in a way squaring a fight against the likes of apple and their iphones. Alas I don't come to expect for whats to be on n900 apart from the fact that its a linux device with phone functionality and I was quite happy with that to16:27
psycho_oreosthe very least (something that isn't android)16:27
lardmanmgedmin: agreed, really forcing people to do transparent state saving and resuming would be better16:27
lcukmgedmin, i dont mind the swap function for when its needed16:28
psycho_oreosrmrfchik, there aren't many alternatives that I have looked at and liked apart from meego I'm afraid.. android is nice its own ways but its not suitable for the things I want to deal with (such as low level hardware access, the unlikely need to jailbreak, etc, etc)16:28
mgedminbut it makes the ui unpredictably sluggish16:28
lcukits premature usage thats annoying and apps expecting big desktop memory utility16:28
mgedminsince core functions get swapped out16:28
lcukyip16:28
lardmanlcuk: indeed16:28
rmrfchikpsycho_oreos: if you will support nokia with money, they will continue make shit16:29
psycho_oreosrmrfchik, then again to look at the alternatives, there aren't many to begin with apart from android and the usual catch 22 with them16:29
lardmanhttp://maemo.nokia.com/features/calendar/ how do I get different coloured items in my calendar?16:29
jarkkomcolors are by calendar, so just create new calendar and add items under that16:30
lardmanoh I see16:30
psycho_oreoslardman, you can get them from synchroising from another device or program16:30
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lardmanand birthdays are pink all the time16:31
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lcuklardman, holly has many birthdays a year.16:32
frenchy_ok im coming here one last time before i sell my n810 for parts, i think i hosed the bootloader, can anyone help me to get it working again? i get no response whatsoever from the device16:32
lcukyour job as a man is not to question that16:32
lardmanlcuk: :)16:32
lcukhey frenchy_ did you try a new battery?16:32
frenchy_lcuk, yeah16:33
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lcukthen thats unfortunate16:33
lcukwhere abouts are you16:33
frenchy_North Carolina USA16:33
lardmanhow did you hose the bootloader?16:34
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frenchy_lardman, trying to install mamona16:34
lardmandd'ing something you shouldn't have?16:34
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frenchy_lardman, i just used the flasher tool16:34
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psycho_oreosnot that I've ever owned n810 but have you tried flashing with the original firmware to see if that works?16:34
lardmanhmm, the flasher shouldn't be able to do that16:34
frenchy_lardman, well i cant get it to turn on, light up, charge or anything16:35
DocScrutinizerpsycho_oreos: how to flash without NOLO??16:35
frenchy_psycho_oreos, i cant get it into usb mode to flash anything, computer wont recognize it16:35
DocScrutinizerfrenchy_: get it to Nokia care center16:36
lardmanstrange16:36
psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer, well I dunno lol, see I think that's where its different between n8x0 and n900, NOLO isn't really easily accessible under n900, at least not with flasher tool I believe16:36
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psycho_oreosfrenchy_, ahh16:36
lardmanpsycho_oreos: how do you mean? They appear pretty similar16:36
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catfaceeu16:38
psycho_oreoslardman, like I said, I've never owned n8x0 series.. n900 is my first maemo device.. so for some weird reason NOLO was overwritten.. and if it was overwritten by flasher, maybe one final way is via JTAG (if that's possible with right tools/knowledge)16:38
catfacehey16:38
frenchy_DocScrutinizer, where would a nokia care center be, ive searched the net but cant seem to find any info16:38
catfaceah sorry**16:38
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DocScrutinizerfrenchy_: either 'repair' takes 5min (if they don't need to send it elsewhere) and costs a few $, or you  really got a broken hw and won't have to regret when you sell it for also a few $16:38
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lardmanpsycho_oreos: afair the n8x0 also had the NOLO business, and when you flash it only flashes one part at a time, which should mean you can recover if the flashing is halted half way. Also the flasher is supposed to check the integrity of the parts to be flashed16:39
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frenchy_DocScrutinizer, no where can i find a nokia care center16:39
lardmanbut yeah, JTAG is the fallback16:39
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psycho_oreoslardman, hmm ok16:40
frenchy_lardman, how would i go about repairing it if flashing halted halfway16:40
lcukfrenchy_, put a request on talk.maemo.org and see if anyone is nearby, I know theres some n900 owners around16:40
lardmanfrenchy_: it remain flashable afaiu16:40
lcukhttp://pininthemap.com/maemo16:40
lardmanthere are 2 sets of flashing code or something along those lines, each flashed one at a time16:40
frenchy_lcuk, how would how owuld n900 owners be able to help16:40
DocScrutinizerfrenchy_: I have no idea. Look, I'm a european resident16:40
lcukfrenchy_, i didnt say they would16:41
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lcukbut they are maemo supporters16:41
lcukand many have had earlier devices too16:41
lardmanfrenchy_: how long ago did this happen? Are you sure the battery has enough juice to even start the flashing code?16:41
lcuk:)16:41
DocScrutinizerfrenchy_: here I take the phonebook, look for "phoneshops" and there for one that has "nokia" in the name16:41
DocScrutinizerthere are several in every town16:42
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erez_hello16:43
frenchy_lardman, the battery was full when i did it, when i plug it in the charge icon doesnt even show up16:43
erez_does anyone know if there is a successor for the n900 ?16:43
lardmanfrenchy_: was this quite recent though?16:43
frenchy_lardman, yeah like a week ago16:44
lardmanok fine16:44
psycho_oreoserez_, there will be, its not out yet16:44
lardmanjust that if the battery gets too low it can't start the kernel/flashing code and it also can't charge the battery16:44
lardmanfrenchy_: have you tried flashing it again, even though nothing shows up on the screen?16:44
frenchy_lardman, why wouldnt it charge the battery charge, isnt it supposed to do that when it gets low16:45
frenchy_lardman, yes ive tried flashing, computer doesnt recognize it16:45
lardmanthe kernel must be running to charge the battery, so if it's too low, no charging16:45
DocScrutinizerfrenchy_: N<900 has sw controlled charging16:45
lardmanfrenchy_: what method did you use to try to start the flashing? Pull battery, wait 10, re-insert battery, plug usb, plug power cord?16:46
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lardmanAlso, are you using Linux or Windows here?16:46
DocScrutinizeranyway, iirc you tested with fresh battery, so all you can do is: take it to Nokia care, or DIY a jig to contact the debug test points under battery, and JTAG flash yourself16:47
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frenchy_lardman, ive tried everything, linux and windows, ive tried the cold flash option with -S usb but ive only seen info about that working on n90016:47
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Stskeepsfrenchy_: how -exactly- did you destroy it?16:47
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lardmanfrenchy_: ok, so go with DocScrutinizer's suggestion16:47
lardmanfrenchy_: http://www.nokiausa.com/get-support-and-software/repair-and-recycle/repair/repair-locator16:48
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DocScrutinizerdarn, how hard can it be to go to nokiausa.com and find certified shops?16:48
DocScrutinizerlardman: hehe, exactly16:48
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lardmanStskeeps: out of interest, do you know what happens when e.g. the bootloader/flashing code1/flashing code 2 gets corrupted?16:51
Stskeepshave to cold flash16:51
lardmanalways?16:52
Stskeepsafaik16:52
lardmanok16:52
Stskeepscold flash can be over usb on n90016:52
Stskeepsafaik16:52
lardmanI thought the N8x0 were equally robust, but can't remember16:52
GAN800DocScrutinizer: there aren't any16:52
GAN800Nokia is fail in the US16:52
lardmanI was just wondering if there would be any visual indications, or it would just look dead until you do the right thing16:52
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lardmanhey GAN80016:53
GAN800Partially because of their godawful support chain here16:53
GAN800Howdy16:53
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erez_psyco_oreos, is there a schedule ? i want to buy a new open phone, just wanted to know if to buy an n900, or wait for the new one16:55
DocScrutinizerGAN800: think the webpage lardman posted above should spit out some shipping address at *very* least16:55
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SpeedEvilerez_: there is no schedule16:56
frenchy_the link lardman posted eventually brings you to a form you fill out and then you can ship it to nokia but doesnt seem to give any info on how much it will cost for anything16:56
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TermanaSpeedEvil, that's not true. I'm sure Nokia has a schedule for the next release. There just isn't any publicly available schedule16:56
lardmanfrenchy_: that's normal16:57
erez_ok, thanks16:57
lardmanfrenchy_: I guess you'll get some inspection fee, then a phone call do tell them whether or not to proceed16:57
GAN800They'll quote you when they look at it16:57
DocScrutinizerGAN800: I know USA is completely fsckdup in many respects, regarding customer relationships - I mean where else can you sue microwave manuf for not warning to not dry the cat inside the oven - but I bet Nokia has some central service center in USA16:57
GAN800Hopefully it's under warranty though16:57
lardmanlol16:58
GAN800DocScrutinizer: They do16:58
* SpeedEvil stabs Termana.16:58
GAN800But those suck too16:58
* Termana dies16:58
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SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: that's not quite true.16:58
lardmanI wonder when lcuk's going to get back with my beer....?16:59
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: you can safely use conventional oven mode to dry the cat.16:59
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Termanalol16:59
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* Termana puts his cat far away from SpeedEvil17:00
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GAN800I hope Nokia's new execs manage to crack the US market17:02
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lardmanI just hope they get some new hw out soon17:02
GAN800OPK clearly had no idea what he was about17:03
* DocScrutinizer envisions a naked LOLCAT saying "betrr zat then microwavers"17:03
ShadowJKI think the first reaction of any exec looking at how the US market works is *facepalm*17:03
lcuklardman, i started thinking about some code and forgot all about beer17:03
lardmanlol17:03
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* SpeedEvil ponders.17:04
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jaskaus markets seem to depend on how much hitlerware the carriers can force on consumers?:)17:04
SpeedEvilThere is - relatively - little I'd want to change about the hardware.17:04
lcuki did 90degree rotation of bitmaps recently, i want to make that arbritary angle17:04
SpeedEvilI want the area round the screen to be touch sensitive.17:04
lcukSpeedEvil, it is17:04
SpeedEvilAs a seperate 'scroll' area.17:04
SpeedEvillcuk: only +5 pixels or so17:04
SpeedEvillcuk: not all the way out17:04
Termanajaska, Godwin's law17:04
lcukSpeedEvil, I mean to knocks and bangs17:04
SpeedEvilah17:05
lardmanSpeedEvil: bit thinner would be good, but yes, I actually want new sw, but I guess we won't really see that until some hw appears17:05
TermanaThis conversation is over17:05
DocScrutinizerlcuk: some 3mm17:05
jaskatermana: i do not subscribe to that interpretation of godwins law.17:05
lardmanlcuk: yuk, interpolation17:05
lcukSpeedEvil, i was talking with pupnik17:05
lcukthe bexel being sensitive would be awesome17:05
SpeedEvilI have maybe a 5mm depth case17:05
SpeedEvillcuk: yeah17:05
lcuklardman, thats not the hard part17:05
DocScrutinizeractual touch sensitive area is +3mm to all 4 directions of screen17:05
lcukits juggling all the variables and remembering which group relate to which17:06
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, I wonder if this big "inactive" touch are was needed to get consistent sensitivty on the viewable area..17:06
lardmanand let's not forget making it run quickly too ;)17:06
lcukShadowJK, its just a calibration thing17:06
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lcukthe touch digitiser on 810 was similar17:07
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lcukit just sticks over the top and has higher resolution, its great17:07
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ShadowJKI wonder why the software doesn't let you calibrate that :/17:07
lcuki wonder if you could get a resitive overlay for iphone or ipad17:07
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lcukShadowJK, it doesnt need to?17:08
lcukyou get pixels 0 to 799 or whatever17:08
lcukx is doing its job17:08
lcukand if you need the raw ones you can get them17:08
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: a reasonable assumption (consistency)17:09
DocScrutinizerlcuk: nope you can't17:09
ShadowJKlcuk, I mean the black hole issue of N8x0 isn't present on my n900?17:09
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ShadowJKlike, 3mm from edges on my n800 is about as sensitive as n900 screen17:10
ShadowJKbut middle of screen on my n800 shows 0 response to thumb touches17:11
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lcukShadowJK, thats age17:11
DocScrutinizerduh17:11
DocScrutinizerthat's bad17:11
lcukits the same on mine DocScrutinizer17:11
lcukin the area i draw on most17:12
lcukits not sensitive to finger17:12
DocScrutinizerwhat exactly is aging there, physically?17:12
ShadowJKwell my N900 is now about twice as old as my N810 was when I first noticed it :)17:12
lcukbut still works perfectly with stylus17:12
frenchy_the answer is probably no to this but is it possible to boot from a memory card on the n810 if the internal bootloader is gone17:12
lcukDocScrutinizer, the sandwich layers are closer i am betting17:12
lcuklike an old sofa17:12
DocScrutinizerconductive resistive coating of the plastic planes wearing?17:12
ShadowJKfrenchy_, no17:13
Jef91god I was tmobile would roll out hspa+ in chicago already17:13
Jef91downloading 150megs over 3g blows17:13
lcukfrenchy_, you want signs of life for anything17:13
lardmanfrenchy_: but unless you dd'd the partition holding the bootloader, etc., you should really be able to flash somehow still17:13
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* ShadowJK is downloading a live iso over HSDPA non-plus17:14
DocScrutinizerhmm, no. If it works with stylus, it more sounds like non-conductive 'dirt' coating building up on top of the resistive conductive layer17:14
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DocScrutinizermaybe oxidation17:14
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frenchy_lardman, any idea how?17:14
DocScrutinizeror oil separator goin resin17:15
ShadowJKwell it only took like 10 years for nokia to solve the "wtf there's dist INSIDE the display?" experience :)17:15
ShadowJKfirt*17:15
ShadowJKdirt even17:15
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DocScrutinizerlcuk: does the sensitivity change with temperature?17:16
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DocScrutinizerI.E on high temp it gets better?17:16
GAN800ShadowJK: Nokia had a lot of goodwill in the US which they squandered away with unimaginably bad customer support, delayed or nonexistant hardware releases, even more delayed software releases, and generally treating the US consumer like crap17:16
lardmanfrenchy_: as Stskeeps said, how exactly did you break it?17:16
frenchy_lardman, trying to flash mamono on it, i must have disconnected it too early17:17
lardmanso not a power out?17:17
lardmanWindows or Linux flasher?17:17
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lardmanAlso, what were you flashing, kernel + rootfs alone I guess?17:17
GAN800Innovartion, advertisint, synched releases and a good support chain  fix it17:17
frenchy_lardman, when i did it it was linux17:18
lardmanGAN800: well the hw & sw delays have also not gone down so well over here17:18
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lardmanfrenchy_: ok, and which files were you flashing?17:18
frenchy_lardman, i think i created an image combining the mamona rootfs with the maemo image to get proprietary aspects working17:18
lardmanbut I guess that was a rootfs, as iirc it's still not possible to generate a FIASCO image is it17:19
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lardmanI'm trying to establish whether you flashed the bootloader, flashers, etc., or if this stems from just flashing the kernel and rootfs17:19
frenchy_lardman, yeah i think the process they get youdo to creates a FIASCO image combining the 217:20
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lardmanfrenchy_: do you have an URL?17:20
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frenchy_http://dev.openbossa.org/trac/mamona/wiki/Releases/0.2/RunningMamona17:21
frenchy_there is a recover broken device section but it seems they were still able to see some life from the device when getting it fixed17:22
Stskeepsfrenchy_: ok, so, what happens if you take a FIASCO image and simply flasher -F fiasco-filename -f -R17:22
Stskeeps?17:22
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MohammadAG51on the N900? nothing17:23
frenchy_Stskeeps, nothing, it wont power on to where i can put it in USB mode17:23
lardmanif that fails, I'd look at the fiasco image you flashed (extract the contents and compare to the expected contents)17:23
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lardmanfrenchy_: ah17:23
satmd:(17:23
lardmanfrenchy_: did you see my instructions earlier?17:23
frenchy_lardman, i dont believe so, what did you say17:24
MohammadAG51then try to pop out the batt, connect usb, run flasher, then connect the batt17:24
lardmanpull battery, put it back, plug in the usb, then apply external power - it will then boot to flashing mode, if possible17:24
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lardmanno need to fiddle with keypresses, etc17:24
Stskeepsfrenchy_: does the NOKIA logo show?17:24
lardmanStskeeps: nothing afaiu17:25
frenchy_lardman, i will give it a try, but im pretty sure all the things ive done ive done that at least once lol17:25
lardman:)17:25
frenchy_Stskeeps, no no nokia lofo17:25
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Stskeepsfrenchy_: it might simply be that your battery is depleted17:25
MohammadAG51or NOLO's fucked17:26
lardmanfrenchy_: did you check the md5 on your original FIASCO image?17:26
frenchy_Stskeeps, battery was at full charge when i hosed it, and have since then tested it with a multimeter17:26
frenchy_lardman, i dont have the mamona image anymore17:26
lardmanoh17:26
lardmanI wonder if 0xFFFF checks the contents for corruption17:27
lcukDocScrutinizer, its a question involving charges, yes it will change with temperature17:27
satmdso I guess the device doesn't vibrate neither on power up attempts?17:27
lcuki recall people having failure only occuring once device warmed up17:27
lardmansatmd: it's not an N90017:27
satmdoh :(17:27
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frenchy_lardman, your instructions did not work17:28
lardmanok17:28
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DocScrutinizerit's dead, Jim! Let's take it to Nokia care center17:31
MohammadAG51who's Jim :P17:32
DocScrutinizerNo, Bones, you'll try to reanimate it with your phaser!17:33
GAN800lardman: No, but releasing the US 5800 six months after the rest of the world and taking longer than that with it's software doesn't exactly inspire loyalty17:33
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lardmanGAN800:17:33
lardmanGAN800: oops, I meant to say "yep"17:34
lardmanfrenchy_: am reading not so great things about checksuming in FIASCO images in the source for 0xFFFF17:34
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lardmananyway, if you don't have the original files, it's not going to be possible to track down which bit was corrupt17:35
lardmansend it off17:35
DocScrutinizerlardman: if 0xFFFF for any reason touched the wrong partition then it's quite irrelevant if the checksum is correct. If it didn't then wtf is use for the rootfs checksum here17:36
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lardmanit won't be the rootfs, but if the original FIASCO was corrupt, then the bootloader, etc., may be corrupt17:36
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lardmanthe other thing I seem to remember was that a too-large kernel could be flashed, not sure what that then overwrites mind you17:37
lardmanI also can't find the source for 0.0.4 of 0xFFFF17:37
DocScrutinizerit probably ruined flash on a low level, thus not caring at all about separate partitions. So either NOLO or cal or both is defect17:37
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DocScrutinizerlardman: (too large) quite possible, writing beyond end of partiton17:38
lardmanbut iirc that was recoverable by reflashing17:39
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DocScrutinizerI bet NOLO doesn't check for end-of-partition for every single byte it receives and flashes to NAND17:39
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DocScrutinizerif you know about numbering aka sequence of partitions in NNAD, then you probably could figure what's going to happen when you flash a too large image17:40
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MohammadAG51it does check for EOF though17:40
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG51: fine. And who's sending that EOF?17:41
DocScrutinizerand when?17:41
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MohammadAG51well, flash a broken rootfs image, NOLO errors out, not flasher17:41
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lardmaninspecting the 0xFFFF code would give the partition order17:42
DocScrutinizerwhatever. Use your phaser, Bones! No, you have to use higher power level...17:42
MohammadAG51partition order?17:43
DocScrutinizeryou're not going to reflash *anything* on a device that simply doesn't come up17:43
DocScrutinizerergo: useless effort17:44
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lardmanit would be interesting to know what's wrong though ;)17:44
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DocScrutinizersure17:44
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lardmanbut as you say, ultimately pointless17:45
DocScrutinizerbut I bet frenchy isn't that much interested17:45
DocScrutinizer(proof: he left)17:45
lardmanoh dear17:46
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DocScrutinizerh deer17:46
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DocScrutinizer:-P17:47
GAN800Pffffft17:47
GAN800Colloquy's idle timeout is 10 minutes17:47
GAN800Then it kills your connection17:47
DocScrutinizeruh wut?17:47
Jartzawhy oh why17:48
GAN800iPhone IRC17:48
DocScrutinizerpffft17:48
MohammadAG51you can't have xchat on iOS :P17:48
DocScrutinizercoloquy is killing connections, iOS is killing your sanity17:49
MohammadAG51Steve Jobs getting revenge17:49
MohammadAG51sorry, i went too far17:49
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saahleh'estimated update time: 10 hours, 5 minutes'17:54
saahlehsorry17:55
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DocScrutinizer51yeah, I'm too17:55
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Stskeeps'lo qole17:58
MohammadAG51hi qole17:59
Khertan1help ... i m looking for dbus expert for a little help on my khweeteur notification17:59
Khertan1the dbus-callback-default doesn't seems to be called18:00
Khertan1and i didn't understand why18:00
Khertan1source is here : http://gitorious.org/khweeteur/khweeteur/blobs/master/khweeteur/__init__.py18:00
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sobczykhi anyone hit bug with no wifi networks to connect to? I am sure there are because iwlist shows there are18:29
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jpinx-eeepcsobczyk: hidden WAP's ?18:31
sobczykno, in place I am in there are plenty of AP18:31
* RST38h moos18:32
sobczykI think I'll need to troubleshoot this...18:33
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lardmancu later chaps18:40
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timeless_pidginDoc: what's my next number? :)18:55
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timeless_pidgin:(, has anyone helpfully compiled my list? I wouldn't want to repeat myself :o19:19
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lcukoi timeless_pidgin you couldv prefixes/suffixed your list with a hashtag or something19:28
lcukthen we couldv grepped the logs19:28
lcukcurrently mgedmin's server is stressing at a search for "timeless ."19:28
lcuksince you prefixed all of the with a number and a dot19:28
mgedminthe search script is incredibly dumb19:28
mgedminit does no regexps19:28
mgedminbut it reads all 700 megs from disk every time19:28
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lcuk:$ indeed mgedmin hence me trying to be light with it lol19:29
lcukbut it wont find a search with a .19:30
lcukit does find similar with )19:30
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kerioGAN900: i thought Colloquy on iOS4 had true-ish backgrounding19:31
mgedminlcuk, nothing special about dots there19:31
mgedminhttp://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mgedmin/irclog2html/trunk/annotate/head:/src/irclog2html/irclogsearch.py#L13819:31
lcukmgedmin, ahh so its only pulling up specific string "timeless"+space+"."19:32
mgedminyep19:32
lcukthat would explain it then, bah19:33
lcukno timeless_pidgin theres no collated version :P19:33
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lcukmgedmin, i have a similar silly search like that on windows19:34
lcukfor dumpster diving my code19:34
lcukbut it breaks each phrase supplied into words19:34
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lcukand checks against them19:35
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lopzhi :)19:36
timeless_pidginOops :(19:37
timeless_pidginperl -ne 'next unless m!nick[^>]*.timeless.*?">(.*?)</td>!; print "$1\n"' 1419:39
timeless_pidginSeems to do something vaguely useful19:39
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timeless_pidginperl -ne 'next unless m!nick[^>]*.timeless.*?">(\d+\..*?)</td>!; print "$1\n"' 1419:40
timeless_pidginIs almost ok19:40
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timeless_pidginLooks like i had two 4s19:41
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timeless_pidginhttp://konigsberg.mozilla.org/maemo.txt is my current poor man's extract19:43
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Stskeepstimeless_pidgin: are there any certain gcc flags that mozilla is typically not working together with?19:43
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timeless_pidginFastmath?19:44
timeless_pidginEnable broken floating point19:44
Stskeeps:nod: not there at least19:44
timeless_pidginThat's the first that comes to mind anyway19:44
timeless_pidginWhat-cha got?19:44
Stskeepswell, we have a fennec-qt that crashes on ARM, so that's fun..19:45
Stskeepslike, on startup19:45
timeless_pidginStack?19:46
timeless_pidginAnd which flags are you using?19:46
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timeless_pidginOh wait19:47
timeless_pidginAre you using a broken ver of gcc?19:47
timeless_pidgin4.5 counts19:47
Stskeepsgcc4.5, does it qualify?19:47
Stskeeps:P19:47
timeless_pidginAyup19:47
Stskeepsgot any gcc bugs i can refer to?19:47
timeless_pidginThe idiots shipped a compiler that doesn't support their *own* libffi or whatever it was19:47
Stskeepscrashes in javascript stuff i think19:48
Stskeepsworks on x86 though19:48
timeless_pidginIt should be in the logs for #meego when i explained that gcc 4.5 is NOT OK19:48
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* Noobmonk3y waves19:48
Noobmonk3yI r Need Geek!19:48
timeless_pidginAnd that choosing a compiler w/o making sure it isn't horribly broken is downright stupid19:48
Noobmonk3yCan someone clever please tell me a VNC viewer (for a pc) that will allow me to screenshot the view easily?19:49
Stskeepstimeless_pidgin: after we had dbus crashing cos of a gcc bug, i pretty much agree19:49
Stskeeps:P19:49
timeless_pidginhttp://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=40701 might be it19:49
povbotBug 40701: was not found.19:49
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* Stskeeps looks19:49
timeless_pidginNope19:50
timeless_pidginThere was probably a heads-up in mozilla.dev. Something about not updating to 4.5.. Still looking19:52
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Noobmonk3ylcuk, I need your brains! :P19:52
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johnsqHi19:53
Noobmonk3yhi johnsq19:53
fralsNoobmonk3y: tightvnc should do it... i think :P19:55
timeless_pidginhttps://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=59461119:56
povbotBug 594611: was not found.19:56
Noobmonk3yyeah using it, so simple screenshot, want to do loads on the n900, but screenshotting and pasting, saving is effort lol19:56
Noobmonk3ycheers though frals19:56
timeless_pidginThat's http://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=4562319:57
povbotBug 45623: was not found.19:57
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sobczykanyone had a problem with the wireless network picker? It stopped work for me, if it shows up,there are no networks visible (iwlist works fine) and sometimes it even does not show up20:00
Noobmonk3ysorry sob, seems to work ok for me, but i dont swap w networks all that often20:00
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timeless_pidgin... There are a couple of ways to break the network picker20:05
timeless_pidginOne is to give bad credentials for a wpa2 advanced network (where you need to present a certificate )20:05
sobczyklol, it started to work, automagically, though I removed libicd-network-usb along with it's gconf keys20:06
satmdoh?20:06
satmdtimeless_pidgin: details on that one? how does it break?20:06
timeless_pidginIf your cert is password protected and you give the wrong password and cancel20:06
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timeless_pidginYou're hosed until you reboot.20:06
satmdmhm, slightly different from my "notcurrently valid"20:06
satmd+%2020:07
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timeless_pidginLesson: don't give the wrong password, or don't password protect your certificate20:07
timeless_pidginBut basically iiuc what happens is that a daemon croaks and nothing respawns it20:07
timeless_pidginAnd the ui shows its list of nothing20:07
timeless_pidginI could be wrong, i'm just a user/victim20:08
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timeless_pidgin25. If you have both - and _ on a hardware keyboard, ensure they're adjacent so that they can be used together to visually distinguish each other... Or provide a box view for _ so that it's clear on its own....20:10
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timeless_pidgin26. The call log should be accessible while a call is in progress. E.g. While talking to your manager you might want to say "yes, i just spoke to the client 13 minutes ago" (grr)20:11
timeless_pidginThat one constantly bites me :(20:11
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DocScrutinizer25 \o/20:14
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Jaffafrals: Did you vote for the right right party?20:23
* Jaffa noted last week when his Swedish colleagues didn't say "far right" but "right right". That amused me.20:23
timeless_pidginDid i miss a party?20:23
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Jaffatimeless_pidgin: Swedish election.20:23
Jaffatimeless_pidgin: Doesn't sound like a fun party to me.20:23
timeless_pidginThere's probably a right right right party, right?20:24
* MohammadAG51 voted for bacon20:24
timeless_pidginDoes that make it a left?20:24
fralsJaffa: heh, no.. "right right" sounds very weird translated to swedish so no idea how they came up with that20:24
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timeless_pidgin(two wrongs don't make a left, but three rights do!)20:24
timeless_pidginErr20:24
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timeless_pidgin(two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!)20:25
timeless_pidginJaffa ever seen:20:26
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kerioBACON!20:26
timeless_pidginBrowser connection:  Learn more   ( )  Always use https    (*) Don't always use https20:26
keriotimeless_pidgin: gmail, isn't it?20:27
kerioit's phrased poorly20:28
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kerioit should be "require HTTPS"/"don't require HTTPS"20:28
timeless_pidginEhm20:29
timeless_pidginPidgin supports dragging tabs out to make new windows on maemo :-!20:29
timeless_pidginYes20:29
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timeless_pidginThe wording is unusual but technically correct20:29
DocScrutinizerbah20:29
timeless_pidginHttps is always used for log-in20:29
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kerio"force https" "don't force https"20:30
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timeless_pidginThus "https support is required in all clients"20:30
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timeless_pidginJust not "always" ...20:30
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timeless_pidginGrr, i cannot break the keyboard completion thing right now...20:32
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mecehmm I can't seem to connect to my wlan. Is there a way to check the wifi thing somehow from xterm and see what the problem is?20:39
meceon n900 that is20:39
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sobczykiwlist scan20:41
sobczykshould show available networks20:41
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DocScrutinizerdammit, recaller is notifying me about some recording in progress since 19:44:00 (which happens to be since midnight local time), and I can't for the life of me not figure what it's recording or how to stop that nonsense. No files growing in default storing destination folder... >:-(20:46
DocScrutinizerand I can't even spot the process in ps20:47
steinexreboot?20:47
DocScrutinizeris this windoze?20:48
ShadSEC2Docscrutinizer, my recaller has continued a recording after a call finished a couple of times... I didn't investigate it, I just rebooted IIRC20:48
E0xDocScrutinizer: reboot20:49
steinexDocScrutinizer: to be honest.. i even think its worse than windows. i must reboot every here and then. never had an uptime of more than 4 days20:49
MohammadAG51haha20:50
ShadSEC2btw, IIRC the ongoing recording happens in another directory and it is moved afterwards20:50
MohammadAG51you don't have to reboot windows20:50
MohammadAG51it does a fine job rebooting on its own20:50
E0xhehe20:50
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steinexwell :)20:50
mecesobczyk, it finds the network fine. It just doesn't connect.20:51
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E0xBSOD is a feature then ?20:51
meceand gives the informative message "Unable to connect to the internet, try again?"20:51
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MohammadAG51E0x, yeah, like cron jobs, with reboot on by default20:51
E0xnow everything have sense20:51
DocScrutinizer51my uptim usually exceeds 20d until reboot for update or other reason20:53
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Anunakinhi all!20:54
MohammadAG51nice, advertising HD examples on an SD channel20:54
E0xor plastic theme change ( i really hate that and was the reason of uninstall it )20:55
lcukI have uptime of 12996 days.20:55
E0x3 day here20:55
lcukits nearly my 13th century day :D20:55
javispedrohappy birthday!20:55
E0xheh20:55
E0xerr happy power-up20:56
E0xor power-on20:56
MohammadAG51LOL lcuk20:56
* MohammadAG51 reboots lcuk20:57
lcuknooooooooooooo20:57
lcuktomorrow i wouldv broken my uptime record20:57
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MohammadAG51hmm20:57
MohammadAG51why don't we have kernel panics20:57
MohammadAG51eye keeps blinking till someone kicks you in the nuts20:57
timeless_pidginYou want panics?20:58
E0xrunning maemo with all the closed source is more scary , that is why not kernel panic it20:58
E0x:P20:58
lcukgrr20:58
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* MohammadAG51 wonders what removing preinit does :p21:00
luke-jrno boot till you flash ofc21:00
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javispedroreleases PR1.321:00
timeless_pidginHrm, i think pidgin picked black on black for someone21:00
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vnepohello21:01
MohammadAG51someone who likes ctrl+a'ing logs21:01
vnepoany news on pr 1.3 for n900?21:01
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luke-jrvnepo: no such thing21:02
MohammadAG51yeah, it exists21:02
MohammadAG51stfu it exists :P21:02
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javispedrojust remove preinit (talk about good timing)21:02
vnepolol21:02
luke-jrno, that's PR1.421:02
MohammadAG51I've seen it21:02
vnepowhere?21:02
luke-jrthey skipped 1.321:02
vneporeally?21:03
vnepowhy?21:03
luke-jrjust to make it harder for idiots to find21:03
MohammadAG51LOL21:03
vnepohmmm21:03
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javispedrohmpf. telepathy+talk.google.com has been disconnecting randomly here for an entire week already21:07
MohammadAG51same on empathy on my pc21:08
javispedroand on my N900 :P21:08
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RST38hmoo javispedro21:10
javispedromooo21:11
DocScrutinizer~pr1.321:11
infobot[pr1.3] a ban'able subject now.....21:11
* DocScrutinizer kickbans javispedro21:12
MohammadAG51~pr1.421:12
keriomoo21:12
kerioDocScrutinizer: i'm pretty sure you have to use /kick and /ban21:12
MohammadAG51~pr1.221:13
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, pr1.2 is available since early Tuesday morning. More information at http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/05/25/nokia-n900-software-update-release-1-2/ -- see ~flashing for how to update21:13
* javispedro wonders if DocScrutinizer ever dropped pr1.2 from the bannable subjects list21:13
kerioas two separate commands21:13
mecegrr. where is syslog on this thing?21:13
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javispedrothere you go, yet another talk.google.com disconnection.21:13
MohammadAG51apt-get install sysklogd21:13
* MohammadAG51 hates how telepathy rapes the cpu21:13
lcukjavispedro, pr1.2 brought us pics from the community written on boobs i believe21:13
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lcukMohammadAG51, whats your telepathy beef?  and have you got specific situations?21:14
javispedrooh, I didn't know! ;P21:14
DocScrutinizerkerio: my clients know to kickban21:14
lcuki could find them, they were amusing21:14
MohammadAG51lcuk, multiple disconnects cause a huge cpu load21:14
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MohammadAG51telepathy loads the cpu while signing in21:15
lcukand you know specifically its telepathy how21:15
MohammadAG51some plugins insist on signing in instead of giving up, ovi is one21:15
MohammadAG51Unable to connect to one or more accounts is one way21:15
MohammadAG51then the green ball flashes21:16
javispedrothen you die.21:16
MohammadAG51and cpu load rises21:16
lcukok MohammadAG51 so its when you have specific additional accounts?21:16
timeless_pidgin27. When implementing "forward" in an email client, do not both add an inline header and insert quotation marks. If someone wanted to use quotation marks, they'd hit reply (modest=stupid)21:17
MohammadAG51text chat on skype (skyhost) also rapes it21:17
lcukjavispedro, NSFW POTENTIALLY DO NOT CLICK IF PEOPLE WEARING BRAS IS NOT WANTED http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1699/releasep.jpg21:17
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MohammadAG51you mention nsfw and crashanddie pops in21:18
kerioyay boobs21:18
javispedroi wonder if something nsfw is safe for uni21:18
MohammadAG51lcuk, wearning or not wearing?21:18
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TiagoTiagohello21:19
TiagoTiagoquick question21:19
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timeless_pidgin28. Keyboard completion of words (e.g. Maemo) compose with one punctuation mark (e.g. ' " .) But should compose with multiple : wrong: 'maemo. ..', "Maemo' s",  ' "maemo. " '21:19
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TiagoTiagohow do i set my N900 to use the DNS the NAT provides instead of openDNS it is using right now for some resason?21:19
lcukliqbase.net/thread.42285.pg001.to.689.imagelist_proc.html21:20
MohammadAG51javispedro, err, uni?21:20
lcukthe WHOLE mammoth pr1.2 chuck norris thread21:20
lcukevery image identified in it21:20
lcukon one page21:20
TiagoTiagolol21:20
lcukit is more of a stress test than timeless_pidgin's stress page21:20
timeless_pidginLcuk: wow21:21
javispedrothank god I never read that thread21:21
javispedroMohammadAG51: university21:21
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lcuktimeless_pidgin, i want that sort of image view available by default for threads21:22
lcukand to click the image and go back into the thread :$21:22
mecethanks MohammadAG51.21:22
MohammadAG51yes yes, I know, i thought you were +30 or something :P21:22
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lcukfrals, theres an "i <3 trout" pic in there :P21:23
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meceOk this wlan doesn't work. It does "send discover", "sending select for 192.168.0.7...", "received DHCP NAK", and then it goes back to "send discover"...21:24
meceany thoughts?21:24
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meceis it my wlan or my n900 i wonder.21:25
luke-jror both21:26
mecedoooh! Found my problem I think. My wii is hogging the ip that is reserved for my n90021:26
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mecestupid wii.21:26
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MohammadAG51mece hmm? i forgot what i said xD21:29
meceMohammadAG51 you said apt-get install sysklogd21:30
GeneralAntillesThe OtterBox case is nice.21:31
GeneralAntilleskerio-ish.21:31
keriohuh?21:31
GeneralAntilleskerio, except it kills itself if you don't use it once every 10 minutes.21:31
keriowhat did i do now?21:31
GeneralAntillesColloquy21:31
GeneralAntilles*kerio, -ish21:31
keriowhat does that have to do with me? :o21:32
GeneralAntilleskerio, didn't you highlight me about it earlier?21:32
kerioi really did not21:32
GeneralAntillesDid too, liar.21:33
GeneralAntillesI see it in the backscroll.21:33
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TiagoTiagohm, seems pc-conectivity manager has thing for OpenDNS.....21:44
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nox-moin21:48
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TiagoTiagoanyway, 8mve figured what file to edit, cya21:49
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kwtmGeneralAntilles: random comment from lurker: agree that OtterBox case is nice (just got one).  Okay, fading into background again. :)22:03
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GAN900Muahaha22:14
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RST38h...apparently convinced that the opossums would eat all of the rats in the borough and then conveniently die of starvation...22:26
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RST38h...opossums have not only failed to eliminate the rat epidemic from New York City, but they have thrived, turning into a sharp-toothed, foul-odored epidemic of their own...22:27
nox-oh dear...22:28
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zokierseriously, did they really do that mistake in the 21th century?22:31
* nox- only knows that oz ppl have possums, maybe they should have asked there first :)22:32
nox-s/have/hate/22:32
timeless_pidginHeh22:33
wmaronetime for the gorillas...22:33
steinexhey nox- :)22:33
* wmarone punts modest, why are you not checking every 5 minutes for messages like you should be?!22:33
nox-moin steinex22:34
nox-:)22:34
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* RST38h thinks it is time to introduce NYC to larger wildlife22:37
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GAN900There's nothing wrong with opossums22:40
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GAN900The America's only marsupial gets a bad rap22:40
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GAN900They don't even carry rabies22:41
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RST38hThey are cute too22:47
* RST38h amusedly watches the flamewar started by Arkenoi, with participation by some Nokia PR girl22:49
Stskeepswhat flamewar?22:49
Stskeeps:P22:49
RST38hStskeeps: there is a video of Nokia employee showing off N8 at the Nokia World, with the poor device first stuttering and then hanging, on camera22:50
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lcukRST38h, she then went to do the same thing on the X3 touch and type, and it kept up perfectly22:50
lcukshes an SMS girlie22:50
RST38hStskeeps: Arkenoi posted it to his blog with the comment along the lines of "Just kill it already!"22:50
RST38hlcuk: Well, N-series are never supposed to work, they are for showing off :)22:51
lcukshut up22:51
lcukshe used her nokia as she was used to22:52
RST38hStskeeps: You can imagine the consequences22:52
RST38hlcuk: I.e. she tried dialing a phone number and N8 froze22:52
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lcuki saw the videos22:52
lcukthe blue nails girlie?22:52
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RST38hlcuk: I am totally cool about it. Freezing when dialing a phone number is a feature.22:52
RST38hlcuk: yea22:52
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lcukRST38h, same woman, x3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVJ552BNeKY  watching her use that is similar to how I see tracy hitting her Nokia, fingers are almost a blur but it works22:54
ShadowJKwhere's the blue nails N8 video?22:55
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RST38hStskeeps: Disturbing thing is, there are no Nokia supporters in sight in that thread, except maybe for that poor lone Nokia PR girl trying and failing to spin things in desirable way.22:55
ShadowJKthat's kinda sad, how much slower it's to reach for the TS than knackering away at the keypad :-)22:56
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lcukShadowJK, the touch and type stuff is really cool22:56
RST38hlcuk: Notice, I do not blame the blue-nailed woman, she is just doing her thing =)22:56
lcukfor dedicated one handed mobile use its awesome22:56
CarnequeHey all, I downloaded this text adventure game Gargoyle, anyone know what directory that downloads to?  It's not in the details of the game.22:56
lcukRST38h, sure22:57
RST38hlcuk: Oh, it is way better for one handed use than N90022:57
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ShadowJKmy car has cruise control, I don't need one-handed phone anymore22:58
ShadowJK;)22:58
RST38hlcuk: When it works, that is. And you will still badly miss the unified messaging, web browser, and sshd =)22:58
lcukRST38h, of course :) just pointing out where it excels22:58
RST38hShadowJK: BTW, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMep7JIDzgE&NR=122:59
RST38hShadowJK: E70 replacement. Looks really slow though.22:59
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ShadowJKLooks more like a.. symbian n90023:00
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RST38htrue :)23:00
RST38hSymbian N9 rather23:01
ShadowJK.. or a N97 with fixed firmware. I bet the N97 owners are overjoyed23:01
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RST38hN97 ownershave been overjoyed for quite a whilenow...23:01
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RST38h[N] for [N]on-working (considering that N97's cheaper brother 5800 is quite a usable little handset)23:02
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ShadowJKthe 200E TS symbians look quite usable from what I've seen23:03
ShadowJKas far as symbian can be usable23:03
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RST38hlcuk is right, the one-handed operation thing is a big deal23:04
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* ShadowJK finds the N8 blue nails girl video23:06
ShadowJKah... how "intuitive" and "user-friendly" touchscreens and multitouch are indeed :)23:06
ShadowJKoh it missed a swipe for a scroll and tap23:07
* RST38h hopes these all can be switched off23:07
ShadowJKbwahah23:07
ShadowJKRST38h, "lol"23:08
ShadowJKIn order to not confuse users, all other methods of zooming have been killed23:08
ShadowJKI bet23:08
ShadowJKlike, scrolling on N90023:08
* RST38h still cannot understand the logic of that guy who killed scrollbars in Maemo523:09
kwtm"my car has cruise control, I don't need one-handed phone anymore" --ShadowJK.23:09
* kwtm imagines ShadowJK desperately typing into the N900, "Turn left! Turn left! Dammit, the bluetooth connection between my steering wheel and my N900 is flaky!"23:09
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ShadowJKman, that girl has cut her nails and the capacitive screen is still not picking up her taps... or then the OS is playing dead23:10
ShadowJKhard to tell :-)23:10
kwtmRST38h: Wait, what?  There *used to be* scrollbars in Maemo and someone decided to remove them?  Sorry, I thought Maemo had always been this hard to use.23:10
kwtmShadowJK: It's an optical touchscreen.  It's confused by the colour blue. :)23:10
* RST38h sighs silently23:10
lcukdon't lie RST38h, you smirked at that joke as much as I did23:11
ShadowJKif kwtm was joking about the scrollbars I missed it :)23:11
RST38hlcuk: the problem is,it is not a joke...23:12
lcuki was thinking the touchscreen optics ;)23:12
kwtmI wasn't joking.  I still don't know how to get to the bottom of my contact list.23:12
RST38hkwtm: type Z!23:12
ShadowJKCaptain Z!23:12
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lcukkwtm, just type23:12
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RST38hor use the portraitmodecontact list in the phone app23:12
ShadowJKkwtm, there was also a D-pad that scrolled in most things when held in..23:13
lcukand not type23:13
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ShadowJKbut now we don't even have up/down cursor keys on half (or more) of the units23:13
ShadowJK:)23:13
* ShadowJK has almost figured out how to activate that scroll-faster mode with the kinetic swipe to scroll thing..23:13
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RST38hjust scratch the screen as if you were a cat with rabies23:14
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ShadowJKa one-clawed cat with rabies23:14
ShadowJKone pawed one clawed23:14
RST38hah you can use all your fingers on both hands23:15
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* RST38h does that, in the HAM application list =)23:15
kwtmHmm, typing Z seems to work.  What about scrolllists which are not indexed by alphabetical or otherwise cannot be jumped to by typing?  Like the program launcher or the call history?23:15
RST38hthey all are since pr1.223:15
RST38hthe call history will probably get selected by caller name23:16
kwtmShadowJK: Hmm, it seems to work too --I've just discovered that.23:16
kwtmWow, you learn new things every day.23:16
ShadowJKkwtm, rabies cat method?23:16
kwtmShadowJK: Yes, rabid cat.23:17
ShadowJKif only it worked in notes23:17
ShadowJKoh but i guess that one has a scrollbar23:17
* kwtm imagines self showing off to others: "My GeekPhone is far superior to your lowly iPhone! This is how I scroll!" (index and middle finger running on the N900 screen for about 20 paces)23:17
kwtmRST38h: You're right, call history can be filtered.  What about app launcher?23:18
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* kwtm is still sore about N900 Contact app importing only 1000 contacts AT A TIME. (If it's capable of STORING more contacts, why can't they be IMPORTED all in one go??)23:19
ShadowJKGuy at work with 5800: "This is how I scroll:.. Oh wtf what hte hell is that, look!" - "Huh?! What" - *5800 guy steals a pen and starts trying to hit the tiny scrollbars on the screen*23:19
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RST38hShadowJK: easier to hit them with a thumb23:20
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RST38h5800 is actually better at finger scrolling than n900, dunno why23:20
SpeedEvil5800 users?23:20
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ShadowJKRST38h, I've always seen him use a pen for the scrollbars and nothing else :)23:21
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ShadowJKlike, it's the only thing he uses a pen for23:21
smharanyone here using DreamRemote with dm7000?23:22
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haltdefcouldn't make that do anything with my vu+ duo23:24
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fredrinHow can I change what kernel that boots?23:31
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jacekowskiwith flasher23:35
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SpeedEvilRandom. Does anyone with a clue on slashdot know if it's possibel to get s list of posts you posrted as anonymous?23:36
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fredrinjacekowski, found it in the wiki23:37
fredrinhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Kernel_Power#Verification_of_proper_installation23:37
fredrin:D23:37
RST38hsleep-time23:37
fredrinapt-get install kernel-power-bootimg23:37
fredrinapt-get install --reinstall multiboot-kernel-power23:37
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fredringoing to make my n900 fly with swappiness 30, new transition.ini and OC23:38
fredrinbut not sure which one of  Where DEFAUL > LV > ULV > XLV > IDEAL. i will use23:38
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jacekowskiheh23:42
jacekowskianother OC luser23:42
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