IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2010-09-18

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zapCan you sort phone contacts into different groups on N900?00:00
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zapAlso, how do I save the phonebook onto the SIM card?00:01
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nox-moin00:05
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DocScrutinizer~optification00:16
infobotmethinks optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish somebody had looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", or http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet one, two00:16
ShadSEC2Doc, do you currently have that way implemented on your phone?00:20
ShadSEC2moved the /usr I mean00:20
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DocScrutinizernope, as this requires editing the system init files, which in turn may break my system any time on arbitrary updates via SSU00:27
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ShadSEC2Docscrutinizer I havent checked that but, aren't those ssu's very infrequent? and couldnt you just check what it will be affected beforehand?00:35
ShadSEC2btw, there are lots of binaries in usr that really should be on fast media (ie Xorg)00:36
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ShadSEC2I have been shocked after seeing how many extras-devels programs are there (without simlink to /opt)... Isn't people suppossed not doing that?00:38
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nickaugustcan I put maemo 5 on my n810?00:40
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adnaGreetings. Anyone here understand the arcanum of .rtcom-eventlogger/el.db?00:42
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adnaI want to do a select on the SMS messages in the database to see the latest one...00:43
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pH5adna: select * from Events where event_type_id=7;00:48
pH5you can order by start/end/storage_time and limit then.00:49
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adnapH5: Thanks! So event_type_id 7 is SMS?00:56
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adnapH5: I can't seem to find a clear description of how to query the database.00:58
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adnapH5: ...and the difference between el.db and el-v1.db..? Is there a lucid source describing this online?01:00
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pH5v1 is the new one post-pr1.2 I believe01:07
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pH57=sms I got from the EventType table.01:08
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pH5in general, .tables and select * from sqlite_master; were useful sqlite3 commands01:08
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ioanhi. is privoxy available for n900? where?01:11
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psycho_oreosits not available for fremantle01:12
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DocScrutinizerShadSEC2: (fast media) It seems to me you're mixing two things: ELF on fast storage, and the loaded program's execution speed. Those are largely unrelated. Esp X I'd guess is just loaded to ram *once* and then it's mostly as irrelevant as it gets how far the storage is where the X ELF had been01:20
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ShadSEC2docscrutinizer  time for full boot is important01:21
DocScrutinizerooh really?01:21
DocScrutinizermore important than a clean rootfs with some free space?01:22
ShadSEC2you mean it wont really matter loading Xorg from emms than unifs?01:22
ShadSEC2probable there wont be much difference on second thought01:22
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DocScrutinizerexactly for X i'd guess it will slow down boot by maybe 2s and doesn't matter at all during normal operation01:23
ShadSEC2I fully agree that there needs to be a solution that avoids the absurd optifying thing01:23
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DocScrutinizerprobably less than 2s01:23
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ShadSEC2for me, whatever the solution that solves it, its ok... everything will be better than me having to do most of the stuff on a chroot to dont break base os01:24
ShadSEC2and also the availability of apps would improve LOTS01:25
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tremnite all, sweet dreams01:27
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DocScrutinizerfor really time critical executables that for whatever reason must stay in /usr/bin and can't go to /bin (which is stll / !) you can have a symlink from /usr/bin to any arbitrary folder on NAND (how's about /opt :-P ), which would keep the executable on same "fast" storage it is now. No reason to keep whole /usr on NAND and symlink 2/3 of the files to /opt because on NAND there's just no space01:30
DocScrutinizerlet's call it "speedification" :-P01:30
kerioDocScrutinizer: why would you need something like that01:31
DocScrutinizeron contrary to ptification you need to speedify only very few selected pkgs01:31
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DocScrutinizerkerio: I don't. ShadSEC2 does, it seems01:31
kerioi'd say we abuse /usr/local/01:32
kerio/usr/local/ on NAND, /usr/ on eMMC01:32
DocScrutinizerlike what?01:32
ShadSEC2Docscrutinizer, but doing that, unless it is done and supported by nokia, its complex enough to be prone to "compability" (ie breakage) problems01:32
DocScrutinizerok, feasible01:32
kerioi'm still not convinced that packages should need to be on the NAND01:32
ShadSEC2need? not01:33
keriowtf are you running01:33
DocScrutinizerShadSEC2: see my post some 30 lines above01:33
keriothen it's meaningless01:33
keriohave the executables you need to boot on /bin/ and mount /usr/ from the eMMC01:33
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kerio/home/ should be another partition on the eMMC, btw01:33
kerioand drop that MyDocs crap01:33
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ShadSEC2Yes, you say it is not needed to "speedify" and probably you are right01:33
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DocScrutinizerall faintly time critical binaries are preloaded anyway, and fixed to RAM so they won't swap out (another thing that needs review)01:35
keriowith what? the sticky bit?01:36
kerioi thought that never worked on linux01:36
ShadSEC2I think MyDocs crap is because nokia thinks all user stuff should be available for direct mount on windows by usb01:36
DocScrutinizerit's not sticky bit, it's some other special thing I forgot about01:36
kerioShadSEC: well that means that nokia is full of shit, isn't it01:36
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keriothere were a thousand better ways to do that01:37
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ShadSEC2yep, but they dont really intended this to be truly open, i guess it was just a side effect...01:37
keriohuh? it's the successor of the N8x001:37
kerioit was never meant to be a phone for users, come on01:37
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keriothe user niche of the n900 are hardcore lunix users who want a cool, powerful toy with linux to hack and watch cat videos on youtube01:38
kerio(oversimplifying)01:39
kerio*on01:39
ShadSEC2well, if they intended it, they failed in things could have been done better for that01:39
keriowell of course they did01:39
kerionamely, the optification, the fact that mydocs is vfat, bme, pulseaudio (and the binary filters)...01:39
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ShadSEC2I lost 3 days just trying to figure out how to manage wlan0... and even if I have, it has been having to accept i2d and wlancond are really in control of it... that's not what I would name OPEN01:41
kerioand it's *still* the best smartphone/tablet on the market...01:41
kerioso shame on you, Nokia01:41
ShadSEC2for the mydocs being vfat is not so bad01:41
kerioshame for making such an awesome device with this stupid, stupid bugs01:41
wmaronevfat is about the only truly cross platform filesystem, sad as it is01:41
keriowell, not exactly bugs01:42
keriowmarone: sshfs is cross platform01:42
ShadSEC2in my tests, mounting loop files barely adds any overhead in comparison to directly mouting a partition01:42
kerioand open01:42
wmaronesshfs isn't available by default on Windows01:42
ShadSEC2you still have the image size limit though01:42
keriowho cares01:42
wmaronekerio: I do01:42
Robot101wow01:42
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ShadSEC2and yes, it is the best smartphone/whatever in the market01:43
keriowmarone: so download psftp01:43
DocScrutinizerRobot101: :-D01:43
wmaronewhy, when wifi is slower than USB transfer?01:43
ShadSEC2my only choice.. and in fact it is as near to perfection that precisely that is what bothers me more... with just a few flaws being corrected it would be01:43
keriousb networking01:43
Robot101DocScrutinizer: I remember why I quit this channel :P01:43
wmaronenot supported by default on windows :P01:43
DocScrutinizerRobot101: it's not really bad01:44
DocScrutinizerthey just got their 5 min01:44
DocScrutinizerRobot101: I had my 5 min before01:44
kerioi'm just mad at nokia :(01:44
Robot101DocScrutinizer: yeah but when I'm in bed on my N900 and I get tempted to join in... :P01:44
DocScrutinizersays enough about quality and usability of device :-)01:45
Robot101fine to read nonsense on irc and /part - not good enough to try and speak sense - seems to make my life better imo :)01:45
DocScrutinizerRobot101: ...so stay with us a bit longer, it'll get better soon :-)01:46
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Robot101I'll sleep on it :D01:46
Robot101'night01:46
keriodid i scare him away? i didn't mean to do that :(01:47
DocScrutinizerRobot101: I suggested to fix the eMMC VANILLA image file so it only flashes /home partition while leaving VFAT untouched01:47
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DocScrutinizerthis would allow to ship rootfs COMBINED with matching /opt binaries (or whatever you call the directory then)01:49
DocScrutinizerRobot101: topic "how to get rid of optification"01:49
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DocScrutinizeranyway, also 'night01:50
DocScrutinizeror ttyl01:51
Robot101'night :)01:51
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pupnik_http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/17/nokias-plug-and-touch-turns-your-hdtv-into-a-giant-n8-video/  cute tricks with n801:52
DocScrutinizerbut... does it blend?01:53
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DocScrutinizerfeels like lcuk invented it01:56
DocScrutinizerbut then you'd probably have to place the N8 5 feet away _on top of a bacon_ :-D01:57
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pupnik_:(02:08
pupnik_:)02:08
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AirBenderHello02:11
AirBenderany clues about a N900 succesor?02:11
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AirBendera new model (may be the word succesor doesn't exist XD)02:12
SpeedEvilThere are various assorted new models of phone - but nothing really a direct successor.02:13
DocScrutinizerrumour has it there'll be a N902:14
AirBenderok02:14
AirBenderseems to me that nokia still doesn't make a bet for maemo devices02:15
DocScrutinizerbut not anything to hold your breath and keep your purse closed, if you consider getting a maemo phone02:15
AirBenderor meego...02:15
AirBenderso N900 still the best maemo phone for some time...02:16
DocScrutinizeryep02:16
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AirBendertoo bad...02:16
DocScrutinizernah, just good enough02:16
AirBenderare you in europe?02:17
mavhkswitching to meego's slowed them down a bit, plus apparently the hardware people pick what OS they want to use inside nokia, not the other way around02:17
DocScrutinizeryes02:17
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DocScrutinizerAirBender: why? need a cdma phone?02:18
AirBenderI was preparing myself to buy an N90002:18
AirBenderthen I checked the broadband bands available in N90002:19
AirBenderand end of story02:19
AirBenderI needed 1900 MHz02:19
AirBenderand it has 170002:19
DocScrutinizereeek, third world aka USA?02:19
AirBenderthird world aka Southamerica very similar to USA in spectrum usage02:20
DocScrutinizer:nod:02:20
AirBenderChile02:20
DocScrutinizerthat's really not nice then02:20
AirBenderyes02:20
DocScrutinizertbh EDGE isn't THAT bad02:20
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AirBenderyes, but I want HSXPA02:21
DocScrutinizeryup, then you are quite out of luck02:21
AirBenderunfortunately02:21
DocScrutinizerbuy expensive proprietary crap build to order for Chile carriers02:22
AirBenderI'm waiting for a new >= N900 device with different modem02:22
AirBendermay be it's just better to wait for something LTE02:23
DocScrutinizerunlikely there'll ever be any. GSM Cert is expensive, and if it's a smal market and also a niche product02:23
DocScrutinizerLTE might come, in a few years, yes02:23
SpeedEvilAlso for various reasons, multiband is getting cheaper02:24
SpeedEvilwhich can help02:24
DocScrutinizerand also Chile might decide to do their own proprietary nonstandard thing once again02:24
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: you always need to do the cert for 1900 UMTS separately, which will cost $$$$$($)02:25
mordviva Chile02:25
mordnm me02:25
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: probably rapuyama even would be technically capable of 1900 UMTS02:27
AppiahWhat version of bluez does PR1.2 have?02:28
Appiahand is there a site where I can check these things?02:28
Appiahoh02:29
Appiahsorry02:29
Appiahhttp://maemo.org/packages/view/bluez/02:29
DocScrutinizer:-D02:29
AppiahI feel so stupid02:29
DocScrutinizernah02:29
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TiagoTiagohi02:47
lolloohi02:48
TiagoTiagois there a way i can tether a mobile phone TO the N900, using the phone as a modem for the N900?02:49
kerioprobably02:49
keriotry with bluetooth02:49
GeneralAntillesN900 had to die on the last day of the week.02:50
GeneralAntillesWhat timing.02:50
kerioGeneralAntilles: heh :(02:51
GeneralAntillesWell, new one should be here Monday.02:51
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TiagoTiago_good luck02:53
lollooAppiah, whatd oes bluez do?02:53
TiagoTiago_it's the name of the bluetooth stack on linux, no?02:54
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lolloowhat does bluez do?02:57
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DocScrutinizerIt's dead, Jim :-S02:58
DocScrutinizerGeneralAntilles: what did you do?02:59
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Appiahlolloo: bluetooth03:03
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TiagoTiagook, they are paired and the mobile is on remote soim mode, what now?03:10
TiagoTiagosim*03:11
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TiagoTiagodo i need to install anhything to enable teethering ingternet FROM a mobile phone TO  the N900?03:18
SpeedEvilhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=58570 TiagoTiago03:20
SpeedEvilbut03:20
SpeedEvilyou'd need to do it the other way round, and the stack won't know how to deal with it03:20
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TiagoTiagoso it's not possible?03:21
SpeedEvilI've not investigated it.03:22
TiagoTiagohm, there is a link for doing it backwards in that thread03:22
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SpeedEvilNeat03:26
SpeedEvilIn principle it's just another linux box, and you can configure the routes as you'd like.03:26
SpeedEvilIn practice, ICD and wlandconfd get intheway03:27
nox-http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_USB_networking03:27
nox-some info also in there03:27
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TiagoTiago_where in that page?03:38
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TiagoTiago_ah, the part about installing the dummy/null from -devel?03:40
nox-yeah03:42
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TiagoTiago_would it be possible to tune the N900 camera to not show dark bands when shooting a CRT screen?03:58
SpeedEvilGenerally not.03:59
SpeedEvilThe problem is that much of the light of a CRT is emitted immediately as the electron beam strikes it.03:59
SpeedEvilWhat may work is using fcam04:00
SpeedEvilset the gain to minimum04:00
TiagoTiago_i mean tune the timming so it opens the "shutter' when the screen starts to be scanned, then closes when it finishes, and the dark band is always between frames04:01
SpeedEvilDoesn't work like that04:01
SpeedEvilThe CRT is continually painted from top to bottom.04:02
TiagoTiago_isn't the dark band the period between the last pixel and the first pixel?04:02
SpeedEvilIf you look at it in any 1/1000th of a second interval, you'll see one bright horizontal line, with the rest of the picture comparatively dim04:02
TiagoTiago_i know04:03
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SpeedEvilThe rolling shutter on the camera will also not typically 'roll' at exactly 50/60hz per screen height04:03
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TiagoTiago_but the dark band isn't when  the last line is scanned and the first is about to be?04:03
TiagoTiago_hm04:03
SpeedEvilIt's an interaction between the rolling shutter, and the brightly illuminated line04:03
SpeedEvilTry for example taking a pic rotated 90 degrees.04:04
TiagoTiago_rolling scan, i see04:04
TiagoTiago_you can't have all the lines of the sensor sensing at once04:04
SpeedEvilThe rolling shutter on the camera has a certain number of lines 'active' at once.04:04
SpeedEvilThese are all integrating light, for the exposure time that is desired.04:05
SpeedEvilIf the frame is read out in 1/5th of a second, is 1000 pixels high, and you need a 1/500th second shutter.04:05
SpeedEvilThen initially lines 1-10 are enabled, and allowed to expose for 1/500th of a second. Then line 1 is read out, and line 11 starts exposure.04:06
SpeedEvilEvery 1/5000th of a second, another line is read out, and another starts exposure.04:07
SpeedEvilFcam may be adequate - if you turn the brightness down - if you can - or use a neutral density filter - sunglasses may work - and turn the gain down with fcamera - ISO.04:08
SpeedEvilI don't have a CRT plugged in ATM, so I can't play.04:08
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TiagoTiago_so far my tests with Fcamera seems to indicate it's higly dependent on the position of the camera (or the screen in relation to the camera), a setting that keeps the screen fully painted also makes it completly dark if you tile the camera jsut a tad04:12
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TiagoTiago_tilt*04:13
iluminator101i am looking for a user agent for firefox on n900?04:13
TiagoTiago_and it gets all stripey if i take a picture :/04:14
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SpeedEvilhmm04:17
SpeedEvilThe ISO may actually wind down the rolling shutter, which may make things eorrse.04:17
TiagoTiago_:/04:17
SpeedEvilI guess the only option is a neutral density filter.04:17
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pupnik_"Know ye not, who would be free themselves must strike the blow?" - Lord Byron04:27
mordiä! - h.p. lovecraft04:28
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TiagoTiago_wait, does it require a PC to tether a cellphone to the N900?04:31
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pupnik_not over the hotspot app TiagoTiago_04:40
ahynes1Anyone around who can help me reflash my N900?04:41
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TiagoTiago_i need it over bluetooth, the cellphone is a N73, no wifi there :/04:41
johnxjust to report in from the other side: jailbreaking iphones/ipods is a world of pain04:41
TiagoTiago_ahynes1: what kind of help do you need?04:42
SpeedEvil~flashing04:42
infobot[flashing] http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware04:42
SpeedEvilSee that ahynes104:42
ahynes1Well, I've been running power kernel for a while...04:42
johnxand though I complain about maemo sometimes, it beats the hell out of the alternatives for people who want to hack up their phone04:42
ahynes1and I tried installing multiboot power kernel and it won't boot...04:42
ahynes1I've read that I should be able to just flash the kernel and get in,04:43
pupnik_johnx: can you download apps to a jailbroken ithing?04:44
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johnxpupnik_: yeah. kinda, I guess04:47
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johnxI'm actually jailbreaking them from work to *remove* functionality04:47
johnxs/from/at/04:47
infobotjohnx meant: I'm actually jailbreaking them at work to *remove* functionality04:47
pupnik_bad functionality johnx ?04:47
TiagoTiago_don't want the employees using the work WiFi to surf for porn?04:48
johnxWe use them as kind of 'kiosk' style devices for playing videos. And our users are customers. And those customers are actually teenagers.04:48
johnxWe really just want it to play video04:48
TiagoTiago_lol04:49
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TiagoTiago_there is probably a cheaper way to get videoscreens04:49
nox-i was just about to say...04:49
jaemQuick question: IIRC the N810 will run from the charger without a battery inserted, but is there any reason why I should not do that?04:49
johnxDon't even ask me why we're using those things, it was made before I was even an employee04:49
johnxjaem: it won't run without the battery04:50
johnxAFAIK04:50
jaemjohnx: I'04:50
jaemI'm fairly certin it does, but I haven't tried in over a year.04:50
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* jaem is having a bad typing day :/04:50
johnxjaem: I'd be interested to hear your results. I could test an N800 here if your N810 isn't close by04:51
jaemWhat I was wondering was whether it would be problematic to do so if it /is/ possible04:51
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jaemjohnx: Sure, although I'll check my N810 now too.04:51
johnxif it actually works, then no, I don't see a reason, because it means they made specific provisions to let it run without the battery04:51
jaemjohnx: Use-case is that I have it in the car-mount, strapped to my equipment rack, and I want to have it always-on as a quick feeds/messages/todos screen in my room.04:52
jaemNo need for a battery in that case, since it will always be plugged in.04:52
johnxwell, you need the battery because it won't run without one ;)04:53
* johnx just tested his N80004:53
jaemIt won't /turn on/ without a battery, but it won't turn /off/ when you remove it - at least, not yet.04:53
TiagoTiago_if yuo pull the battery while plugged tot he wall?04:53
* jaem just tested his04:53
TiagoTiago_k04:54
jaemjohnx: It looks like it wasn't meant to be done, at least, though.04:54
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jaemIs it going to harm the battery, though?  I assume it just runs from the charger once the battery is fully charged, right?04:55
TiagoTiago_a while ago i was told that even if the N900 stayed running with just the wall there was still the risk that when it gets busy it will need energy faster than the wall provides04:55
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jaemTiagoTiago_: That is possible in general, but I can't speak to these specific cases.04:56
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jaemI know that happens sometimes when plugged into a laptop, but the wall charger provides >=2x the current.04:56
jaemI would think that it would be designed for that not to be an issue.04:56
jaemAh, well.  I 'll worry about it later04:58
jaemCheers04:58
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TiagoTiago_cya04:58
TiagoTiago_do i need a PC in order to use a mobile phone as modem for the n900?05:01
johnxeh? you want to use another phone as a modem for the N900?05:02
TiagoTiago_yep05:02
TiagoTiago_a N73 to be specific05:02
johnxbluetooth? wifi?05:02
TiagoTiago_bt05:02
TiagoTiago_N73 ddon't got WiFi05:03
johnxwell, I bet it's *possible*05:04
johnxyou'd need to configure BT DUN by hand, somehow and stop ICD from interfering I think05:04
TiagoTiago_http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=3771005:05
TiagoTiago_i'm not sure exactly what i'm supposed to do though05:05
johnxyou're supposed to guess and test, then write a wiki page to help others :)05:06
TiagoTiago_and it seems i might need a PC to work as a middleman between the two devices05:06
SpeedEvilIt's one of these in principle possible things.05:06
johnxprobably don't need the PC05:06
johnxyou just need the bnep0 device to be up05:06
TiagoTiago_but i'm not understand what they are saying i should do completly05:06
SpeedEvilBut not easy05:07
TiagoTiago_understanding*05:07
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johnxTiagoTiago_: you're trying to do something advanced that very few people have done. This is one of those situations where you may have to do a little research about the tools involved05:08
johnxand if you're still stuck, ask specific questions05:08
TiagoTiago_but in that thread they didn't manage to make it work?05:08
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johnxdunno05:09
johnxI haven't read through that whole thread05:09
johnxit's probably theoretically possible, and it'll be a great way to learn about bluetooth networking for you ;)05:10
TiagoTiago_heh05:10
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GeneralAntillesDocScrutinizer, got a text message, went to unlock it, unlocked but the touchscreen was unresponsive.05:19
GeneralAntillesCould lock and unlock it (no unlock slider screen, though).05:19
GeneralAntillesSo I tapped the battery out, now it dies after about 15 seconds at the Nokia logo (hard shutoff with no LCD cleanup).05:20
TiagoTiago_:(05:20
GeneralAntillesPlugging it into a power source causes it to try to boot, go to steady amber LED then crash and repeat.05:20
GeneralAntillesRX-51, so who knows.05:21
GeneralAntillesOn a 3GS now.05:21
GeneralAntillesIt's the worst.05:21
TiagoTiago_Can it be reflashed if it stayes in constant amber?05:22
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GeneralAntillesHaven't gotten that far yet.05:22
* johnx hangs his IT hat up by the door, drinks05:24
johnxmornin' GeneralAntilles. sorry to hear about that05:24
GeneralAntillesReally feels like a hardware failure.05:25
GeneralAntillesPrototype05:25
johnxonly HW failure for me so far is the stylus silo05:25
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TiagoTiago_what happened there?05:28
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johnxI let someone else hold it to give me directions in the car, they took the stylus out, checked directions, jammed the stylus back in at an angle and now the stylus doesn't want to fit in05:28
johnxI assume it's not totally uncommon05:29
GeneralAntillesWell, it's flashing.05:29
johnxGeneralAntilles: awesome. I think that's a very good sign05:29
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GeneralAntillesWell, first reboot crashed on bouncy status dots.05:31
GeneralAntillesSecond reboot seems to be crashing at the same spot.05:31
GeneralAntillesNot a great sign.05:31
johnxdid you flash fw and emmc?05:31
GeneralAntillesJust FW05:32
GeneralAntillesDownloading eMMC now.05:32
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johnxGeneralAntilles: do you have data on the emmc you want to get back?05:33
GeneralAntillesNot particularly05:33
GeneralAntillesI mean, I have books and whatnot I'd rather not have to regather.05:33
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GeneralAntillesbut nothing I don't have scattered backups of.05:33
TiagoTiago_johnx: wow, is the stylus intact? that's some freaky accident! 0.005:36
GeneralAntilles52 minutes to download eMMC05:36
TiagoTiago_hm, what is that tiny hole next to the stylus?05:36
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago_: phones05:37
TiagoTiago_what?05:37
SpeedEvilOr lanyard, if you'te thinking of the other side05:37
SpeedEvilHeadphones05:37
TiagoTiago_it's between the TV-out hole and the place you stick the stylus05:37
* lcuk peeks in05:38
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TiagoTiago_it looks like those holes that have a button in the bottom you stick a paper clip in to reset devices05:38
SpeedEvilmic05:38
TiagoTiago_ah!05:38
SpeedEvilI think paper clip in it would do bad things05:39
TiagoTiago_good to know05:39
TiagoTiago_the slightly bigger hole in the other side is mean for a strap, right?05:39
TiagoTiago_meant*05:40
SpeedEvilyes05:40
johnxisn't that hole the mic?05:40
johnxTiagoTiago_: yeah, it bent some metal clip inside05:41
* johnx eats dinner05:41
TiagoTiago_the second one i asked about is the one close to the status LED05:41
johnxlater05:41
TiagoTiago_but on the side05:41
lcukjohnx, i believe it is the mic05:42
TiagoTiago_don't pull out or stick in the sylus while on a call, it's loud05:43
TiagoTiago_stylus*05:43
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lcukthe other hole near the usb port is for the lanyard05:43
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TiagoTiago_lcuk, where are you from?05:44
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lcukTiagoTiago_, Manchester, England.05:45
TiagoTiago_hm05:45
* lcuk finishes beer and sleeps05:46
lcukgnite \o05:46
TiagoTiago_interesting, "lanyard" , i didn't knew that word, but aparently it's quite popular, a whole Wikipedia article about it05:47
jpinxN900TiagoTiago_: http://nds1.nokia.com/phones/files/guides/Nokia_N900_UG_en.pdf05:47
TiagoTiago_cya05:47
jpinxN900TiagoTiago_: there's a good diagram showing what all the "holes" do ;)05:47
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TiagoTiago_thx05:47
KosKuklinguys, who knew when new maemo update out?05:48
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jpinxN900TiagoTiago_: or http://europe.nokia.com/support/product-support/n900/specifications05:48
TiagoTiago_KosKuklin: it would show in the device itself, no?05:49
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wmaroneKosKuklin: no mention of another update has been made, nor has any release date been announced05:50
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KosKuklinTiagoTiago_: yap )05:50
KosKuklinwmarone: thx05:50
TiagoTiago_ahah! It isn't called a "lanyard" in that PDF! :P05:53
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luke-jris there a Quassel client for Maemo yet?05:55
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TiagoTiago_~Quassel05:58
TiagoTiago_:(05:58
TiagoTiago_lol "Note: in France, you are only allowed to use WLAN indoors>"05:59
TiagoTiago_s/>/.05:59
TiagoTiago_erm, that is not it?05:59
TiagoTiago_lol05:59
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GeneralAntillesjohnx, no improvement with eMMC.06:36
johnxGeneralAntilles, but the emmc flashed cleanly?06:36
GeneralAntillesYeah06:37
johnxis there a microsd card in it?06:37
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johnx(forgive the obvious questions)06:37
GeneralAntillesNope06:37
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johnxwell, that leaves a couple options, but we rapidly end up doing some more serious hacking. up for it?06:38
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GeneralAntillesDunno, what are we talking about?06:39
johnxwell, what I'm thinking about is loading something like meego onto a microSD, then use flasher to load a kernel that looks for root on microSD06:39
johnxthen get in there and do some good old fashioned troubleshooting on the linux command line06:40
johnxmaybe you can use it to attach some logging and see where the boot process fails06:40
johnxs/boot/maemo boot/06:40
infobotjohnx meant: maybe you can use it to attach some logging and see where the maemo boot process fails06:40
GeneralAntillesMmm, I have MeeGo on an SD already.06:40
GeneralAntillesNeed to get it from my 5800 though.06:41
johnxyou might be SOL anyways, but it could be something unnecessary failing that's making the whole thing unusable06:41
johnxI'm also not totally convinced it's not some type of NAND or eMMC failure06:42
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GeneralAntillesStanza can't do HTML eBooks.06:43
GeneralAntillesHow helpful.06:43
* GeneralAntilles shuts down his brain until Monday.06:43
johnxyeah I know the feeling06:43
* GeneralAntilles wonders where he stuck that MeeGo kernel06:44
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iluminator101is there user switcher agent firefox add for maemo firefox???06:46
GeneralAntillesWhere in the world are the kernels?06:47
johnxnot on the meego codedrop site?06:47
GeneralAntillesWhere the hell is the codedrop site?06:47
GeneralAntillesGoogle apparently hates MeeGo-N900.06:47
johnxhttp://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php06:48
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GeneralAntillesYeah, found it. <_<06:48
johnxthe first rule about meego club is you don't tell google about meego club06:48
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GeneralAntillesSame behavior with the MeeGo kernel as before I flashed.06:51
GeneralAntillesNokia logo for about 10-15 seconds06:51
GeneralAntillesThen death.06:51
TiagoTiago_did you flash the bootloader to load straigyht from the card?06:52
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GeneralAntillesOops, maybe not.06:53
GeneralAntillesFail flasher args06:53
coffeecatGoogle hates it ? :(06:53
coffeecatbut my someday dream is to dual boot meego and android06:54
GeneralAntillesWell, there's fbconsole.06:54
GeneralAntillesBlack screen . . . waiting06:54
GeneralAntillesHo hum06:54
GeneralAntillesBoots MeeGo, apparently.06:54
johnxzoom! off to the races06:54
GeneralAntillesNow, NAND or eMMC?06:55
johnxjust run fsck on one, then the other06:55
johnxand, uhm, maybe a non-destructive bad-blocks test? or is that not a good idea on flash?06:55
GeneralAntillesLoading the console took about 3 weeks last time I booted MeeGo.06:55
* GeneralAntilles pokes at USB net.06:56
GeneralAntillesCan't even see the prompt behind the menu.06:57
GeneralAntillesToo late at night to deal with this nonsense.07:00
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jpinxN900where does one find the Alt key function on the N900?07:06
TiagoTiago_A game i don't remember which says the Fn key is ALt-Gr, but i dunno07:08
TiagoTiago_are there any free DNS tunneling services out there? (somthing  where you would set up your  client and use their servers)07:11
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: what did you do? :P07:37
Stskeeps(yes, i do intend to help, just wondering what happned)07:39
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luke-jrTiagoTiago_: beware, T-Mobile blocks them07:40
Termanayello07:40
TiagoTiago_my carrier is TIM07:41
TiagoTiago_(AKA Telecom Italia Mobile)07:43
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luke-jrTiagoTiago_: obviously I wouldn't know what other carriers do07:46
TiagoTiago_and they can't do much if i'm using it over WiFi07:46
luke-jrexcept block it07:48
TiagoTiago_How would they block stuff i'm doing over WiFi?07:50
TiagoTiago_"Not enough memory to display document" trying to open a PDF :(07:52
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luke-jrTiagoTiago_: presumably you want DNS tunnel to bypass blocks. DNS tunnels can also be blocked.07:59
TiagoTiago_but they are a cell phone carrier, they can't do anything about my usage of WiFi networks08:00
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TiagoTiago_WOuld it be ok if i symlinked /var/temp to /home?08:25
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TiagoTiago_i mean, to somewhere inside /home08:26
mkpaais there some straight forward way to boot n810 from external memory card and/or is there a good howto somewhere?08:27
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TiagoTiago_seems everyone that knows stuff is asleep or otherwise AFK right now :(08:30
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fluxeurope is still asleep..08:35
TiagoTiago_lol, this sucks, i jsut deleted a bunch of stuff and went check how much free space i had now, and now i have even less08:36
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RST38hmoo.09:17
bef0rdhi.09:19
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TiagoTiagocan i symlink /user/lib/perl to somewhere inside /home or is it required before it's monunted?10:21
TiagoTiagomounted*10:21
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TiagoTiagocan i symlink /user/lib/perl to somewhere inside /home or is it required before it's mounted?10:32
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TiagoTiago:(10:37
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ieatlintsomeone would have to have a pretty thorough understanding of the init scripts to give you a definite answer10:44
spinningcompassTiagoTiago: You can symlink to a non-existent file if you want.10:44
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ieatlintheh, you can also ignore pedantic unhelpful comments from people who are so bored they think it's hilarious you typed "user" instead of "usr"10:46
kerioLOL HE TYPED USER INSTEAD OF USR10:46
keriook, that's done10:46
ieatlint:P10:46
keriowhy would perl be needed for the boot :|10:46
ieatlintyeah, odds are if a boot script does use it, it does it after /home is mounted10:47
spinningcompassTiagoTiago: Until /home is mounted, an attempt to call the softlinked file will return 'file not found' or similar, but you can still do it. When the /home dir has been mounted, the link will resolve properly.10:47
TiagoTiagodunno, last time i moved a language intepreter out of it's place withnout being completly sure it was safe it turned out it wasn't10:48
keriothe n900's directory structure is fucked up10:48
kerioaccept it10:48
jpinxN900heh - I'll drink to that ;)10:49
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ieatlinta lot of maemo is fucked up :P10:49
ieatlintlinux on a mobile feels like how linux was on desktops back in 200210:49
TiagoTiagolol10:50
ieatlinteverything is janky and feels like a hack10:50
mavhkthat's because desktops from 2002 are about as powerful as mobiles10:50
ieatlintnah, not quite10:50
ieatlintbut it isn't a processing power issue10:51
* jpinxN900 has his N900 hooked up by ssh over usb to a laptop and everything runs ok:)10:51
ieatlintexcept perhaps some of the hacks are done to try and save battery or similar10:51
psycho_oreosthe issue there is nokia switching over to BL-5J for n900.. the battery is relatively smaller compared to its predecessors. Makes you wonder why10:52
jpinxN900probably a weight issue10:52
ieatlintobvious guess is size issues10:52
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mavhknow everyone's making 4" phones, nokia could have lead the way, and sold even less n900s10:54
psycho_oreosI wouldn't think of either.. 1) it has lower battery capacity rating 2) because its a new battery, the battery itself is harder to source. Thankfully me younger brother owns x6 and I can see that it uses the same battery as n900, so when it comes to battery sourcing I could also refer x6 or people would get confused over n90010:54
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TiagoTiago_btw, would it be ok to optify microB?10:54
psycho_oreoshopefully n9 will be nokia's revenge tact from their linux on phone device side. n900 generally itself hasn't been too bad but it still remains as a highly geeky device (requires tinkering and general acceptance for what its worth) for users/owners to maintain ownership of a device after 6 months `novelty period'10:57
TiagoTiago_I want Nokia to release a N900 G2 , learning from the mistakes made with the N900 and fromt he feedback from the community etc, but still a N90010:58
psycho_oreosI'm skeptic of the new nokia CEO.. he may or may not persue n9 and linux on phones/tablets any further10:59
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TiagoTiago_I don't like how they lost all the zeros but still wanna make it be the successor of the N90010:59
ieatlinti was drinking with a guy who works for nokia "on an upcoming meego phone" on tuesday night10:59
ieatlintthat was about as specific as he could get with anything, but hopefully we'll be hearing more soon10:59
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ieatlintpsycho_oreos: hard to say... i think symbian has reached end of life11:00
TermanaDesireThat's right the new CEO will make windows phone 7 phones11:00
TiagoTiago_:(11:00
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ieatlintmy guess is the discussion going on is whether to really move on this meego thing, or start looking at android11:01
TiagoTiago_that would be better than going Windows but still not good11:01
kerioandroid sucks balls11:01
ieatlintit sells though11:02
ieatlintand nokia needs a selling product badly11:02
TiagoTiago_it probably mostly the hype from being from Google plus general marketing11:02
psycho_oreosieatlint, I'd personally vouch the versa, symbian has been predominantly on the nokia's standard devices and it could also partially be one of the reasons why nokia is earning revenue. Alas the issue is not only that.. judging by the new CEO has some close ties with Microsoft (being ex- and what not) he would probably be inclined to see symbian as being the major OS for phones (because symbian does have some similarity to windows on phones)11:02
mavhksymbian will be the new dumbphone os, meego the new smartphone os11:03
mavhkprobably should rename them cheapphone and expensivephone11:03
ieatlintpsycho_oreos: no doubt symbian is one of the biggest money makers for nokia11:03
ieatlintmaemo is a footnote...11:03
keriomaemo is a toy11:03
mavhkieatlint: probably something even lower eg s40 makes even more money for them11:04
kerioeven corporations like toys11:04
ieatlintbut you can't keep sitting on a dying technology and adding patches and hope shit happens11:04
TiagoTiago_IMO, if they treat it properly, it's gonna be the new Symbian11:04
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ieatlintnokia sales are down 40%.. and that's symbian sales11:04
TermanaDesireBut i don't think thats how they are positioning meego11:04
mavhkthere's a delay in n900 v2 because of meego merge11:04
kerion900v2?11:05
ieatlintadditionally, symbian was never able to get into the US market much11:05
kerionew rev?11:05
TiagoTiago_WAsn't it because Nokia didn't advertise much in the US nor tried to offer devices compativle with the technologies the carriers used?11:05
ieatlintintel is throwing a lot of weight onto meego, and if that materialises even for just netbooks, the name recognition could be good going back to phones11:05
psycho_oreosieatlint, and alas meego might also be following down the same path as maemo. That's what my main concern is.. because maemo lacked audiences when nokia only made maemo NIT it was seen as relatively a niche market for it to aim at. The n900 was their comeback for it as a phone with extra gadgets but that didn't fly well when linux on phone seems to be quite new for them. I'm just hoping the new CEO won't kill meego11:05
ieatlintTiagoTiago: they used to11:06
ieatlintthe nokia 6600 was heavily marketed.. was my first smartphone11:06
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ieatlintpsycho_oreos: yeah, it's a distinct possibility11:06
ieatlintwhich is why my bet is they'll head the android route if the new ceo tells meego to fuck itself11:07
ieatlinti think we will see a nokia meego phone, but it may be as niche as the n90011:07
TiagoTiago_Maemo/Meego has lots of potential, they just need to play their cards right11:07
psycho_oreosieatlint, its only a matter of time before the new CEO nominates the new market tactic.. if its `sink or swim' it'll be an end for nokia's linux on phone adventure11:07
kerionah, meego is now a joint project11:07
ieatlintand if shit doesn't shape up for meego in the next 6 months.. it'll be gone, at least as a nokia product, but likely as a product in general11:07
mavhkkerio: just whatever their next meego phone is11:07
keriopsycho_oreos: that would be the wrong thing though11:08
kerioi mean, the n900 didn't sell well for nokia, that's for sure11:08
mavhksymbian is still weird to program for, I hear11:08
TermanaDesireOther phone makers probably wont join MeeGo until they know its going to succeeded11:08
TiagoTiago_relaly? i thought it sold more than they expected11:08
keriobut it still helped them figure out wtf to do with a really-high-end phone11:08
TiagoTiago_really*11:08
TermanaDesireSucceed *11:08
psycho_oreoskerio, I know but my personal thoughts will be that, it'll be a hard and fast tactic for nokia as a whole to get back in touch with the rest of the world. Symbian has been on the forefront of nokia's tools and would be seen as heroic but not maemo because it lacked phone functionality as such11:09
TermanaDesireDamn autocorrect11:09
mavhkmaemo 5 is just not finished enough for mass adoption11:09
ieatlintTermanaDesire: well, intel has lined up a number of partners with meego (not so much for the handset profile, of course)11:09
psycho_oreosmavhk, symbian is and that's the reason why I hated its control tactics.. waited for n900 to come out locally and I got it11:10
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TiagoTiago_IT kinda feels like they rteated the phonefication of Maemo as a hobbie project isntead of putting the company power into it11:10
mavhkn900 is a linux computer with a built in phone11:10
ieatlintif meego is on notebooks sold at common retail outlets, and in bmw cars, the name recognition for a nokia phone running it would be beneficial11:10
TermanaDesireieatlint: netbooks are a low risk area and one that is becoming leas relevant it seems11:10
TermanaDesireLess*11:11
ieatlinteh... i wouldn't say that11:11
ieatlintlow risk, yes11:11
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mavhkintel hates netbooks on the hardware side, less profit per item11:11
ieatlintbut i don't think tablets will kill them off11:11
psycho_oreosif only nokia was serious about marketing linux on phone as would google does with its android, it may also would have seen as a killer platform rather than neglecting the `niche market' after seeing android hit the world by storm (well almost)11:11
TermanaDesireThe ipad has halved netbook sales11:11
mavhkTermanaDesire: actually that's wrong11:11
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mavhkstupid reporters making stuff up11:12
ieatlintintel is also pushing tablets with meego11:12
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ieatlintin fact, a meego tablet on an intel chip comes out on tuesday11:12
psycho_oreoslol intel is probably reminded of their woes with atom CPU11:12
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ieatlintit's no ipad killer, that's for sure11:12
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mavhksilly intel, getting rid of their ARM division11:12
ieatlintergh, intel had an arm division?11:13
psycho_oreosyes11:13
TermanaDesireIntel trying to use x86 in the mobile arena is not a good idea IMO11:13
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ieatlintsomehow intel licencing cpu arch from another company seems... weird11:13
TiagoTiago_they used to make them, no?11:13
psycho_oreosstrongARM is what it was called before it was sold off to Marvell11:13
kerioARM is efficient, x86 is not11:13
keriothat said, i'll happily buy a n900 with an i711:13
mavhkyeah, DEC invented the strongarm, sued intel, somehow intel got their strongarm division11:14
psycho_oreosthough ARM requires cross compiling.. or specific arch compiling, x86 doesn't because it can be seen as `one suit fits all' type of approach11:14
ieatlintso long as you have SSSE311:14
keriopsycho_oreos: my server runs ARM11:14
TiagoTiago_the N900 is already a guzzler with it's current processor....11:14
TermanaDesireBut x86 is starting with a power sucking disadvantage over arm11:15
kerioTiagoTiago_: yeah, but those i7s are some dope shit11:15
TiagoTiago_lol11:15
psycho_oreoskerio, that's nice but you still have to compile stuff for armel more or less :)11:15
mavhkx86 is just a risc core with an emulator sucking battery power11:15
keriopsycho_oreos: yeah of course11:15
ieatlintcross compiling doesn't need to be that bad11:15
ieatlintalthough doing it in windows is a joke11:15
psycho_oreosI thought x86 was more of a CISC compared to RISC hence that's why ARM et. al. is winning over the x86 due to the lack of instructions and therefore overhead11:16
ieatlintbut the nokia sdk for the n900 is simple and decent11:16
TermanaDesireMavhk - that's actually a partial myth. I had a link on it discussing it the other day.11:16
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mavhkTermanaDesire: the 50% or the risc core?11:16
psycho_oreoscross compiling can be daunting for people who are unaware of the terms. I know of some people whom uses their n900 to compile stuff natively via chroot rather than using scratchbox environment on their PC11:17
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TermanaDesireThe core I believe. Ill go see if I bookmarked the link11:17
mavhkthe only real reason to have x86 is windows nt11:17
ieatlinti think the other major issue with meego is that intel seems to be running it more (at least at the moment), and they kind of see the word ARM as a taboo, with slogans like "meego runs best with intel" (seriously)11:17
ieatlintthey're risking alienating their open source community base11:17
mavhkTermanaDesire: yeah, it's a massive simplification, but in general, x86 chips have power sucking hardware to convert x86 instructions into the actual stuff the cpu runs11:18
TiagoTiago_is it ok to optify flash?11:19
Stskeepsieatlint: nah, we're actually an equal participant (ARM) in meego, but you have to recall you went to a meegozone / intel event11:19
psycho_oreoswell Intel sold their strongARM division and focused on small x86 for embedded chipsets (hint: moorestown) it seems as though n9 would probably be seen as a likely possibility to have its cores and what not replaced by Intel's SoC solution11:19
mavhkobviously nokia saw that android beat them and they needed partners to compete, intel still thinks someone will make an x86 phone11:19
Stskeepsieatlint: same kind of slogans will come if ARM showed stuff :)11:19
TermanaDesireDidn't bookmark it but what your expanded explanation is basically what it said mavhk11:19
kerioandroid is iOS for the cheap11:19
ieatlintStskeeps: yeah, perhaps i'm really seeing things with a terrible bias at the moment11:19
ieatlintall i can say is the people who went coming from an intel background seemed leave just confused, and the people coming from the maemo background understood the presentations more, but also seemed just confused at the spin11:20
psycho_oreosI'm pretty sure the meego on ARM won't last long.. if anything it'll be released on either dev phones or initial batch before intel tries to push through their SoC for ARM-free device11:20
Stskeepsuhm..11:21
Stskeeps:P11:21
mavhkwin phone 7 is designed to complete with iphone 1, now 3 years later android's the more open platform and microsoft are behind again11:21
TiagoTiago_is it ok to optify flash?11:21
kerioandroid is still crap though11:21
Stskeepsieatlint: i've been along from day zero of meego ARM port, so i know what the state of the actual work is11:21
mavhkwhy kerio?11:21
TermanaDesireieatlint: my guess - nokia x86 device coming ;)11:21
kerioyou're just sucking on a different dick11:21
Stskeepspsycho_oreos: that's a weird theory11:21
keriogoogle's instead of apple's11:21
psycho_oreosright now the unreleased n9 still sports ARM which is rather nice but its still far too early to speculate on whether or not n9 will be using ARM core entirely or because of the joint venture, Intel would be seen as dominant in wanting to make their products fly11:22
ieatlintStskeeps: oh, i definitely believe nokia is keeping along with arm on meego11:22
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Stskeepsieatlint: and not only nokia11:22
Stskeepschipset vendors like STE, TI as well11:22
ieatlintcool then11:23
TermanaDesirepsycho_oreos: I have no doubt the n9 will be arm, but after that...11:23
Stskeepsand we've seen broadcom guys round too11:23
mavhkpsycho_oreos: the day an x86 phone becomes popular is the day after the human race accepts asbestos gloves aren't bad for you11:23
psycho_oreosTermanaDesire, after that we'll have to see what nokia's new CEO decides of meego project, which is also a bit of a grave concern for me11:23
ieatlintwell, i'm hoping shit goes together on it all11:23
Stskeepspsycho_oreos: please keep seperate nokia meego and meego.com11:24
TermanaDesireYeah but broadcom provides some or the other for x86 don't they stskeeps?11:24
ieatlinti'll be curious as well to see if meego is actually to maintain a unified community11:24
StskeepsTermanaDesire: not sure if broadcom has x8611:24
ieatlinti suppose i should join #meego-arm heh11:24
Stskeepsbe welcome, we sit quite a large of people there11:24
Stskeepsand view our logs to see our work11:24
Stskeeps:P11:24
psycho_oreosmavhk, it'll only be a matter of time. Intel does seem they're willing to push it through11:25
psycho_oreosStskeeps, o.O ok11:25
ieatlintwe'll see if intel does too... moblin didn't exactly get the backing it needed either11:26
Stskeepspsycho_oreos: meego.com platform is ARMv7 and Atom, which isn't going away for the forseeable future11:26
Stskeeps:P11:26
Stskeepsieatlint: well, judging by the attitudes some of the intel people show, they're not exactly community builders..11:26
Stskeepsand by that i don't mean the community manager, but the coders11:26
ieatlintindeed11:26
TiagoTiago_Does Maemo uses Adobe Flash (like for interface, or decoding the hands video or somthing) or is it only used in web browsers?11:26
Stskeepsyou have to meet these people in person to understand them a bit better instead of their email style11:26
keriohaha using flash for that is LOL11:26
ieatlintmakes me wonder if the meego community will fracture11:26
StskeepsTiagoTiago_: no, we use sane codecs11:27
TiagoTiago_ok11:27
psycho_oreosStskeeps, ahh ok11:27
TiagoTiago_so that means its safe to optify it?11:27
Stskeepsieatlint: i think it's going more towards integration at least in terms of ARM and X86, because we suffer a large deal of the same problems11:27
Stskeepscos the actual hardware differences make little sense underneath qt11:27
ieatlintStskeeps: yeah... a lot of questions... it could turn out really well11:28
ieatlinti wish i could afford to go to dublin11:28
Stskeepsieatlint: my hope is that we have something really cool by 1.2..11:28
ieatlintget a neutral/nokia spin on it all, heh11:28
Stskeeps1.1 is already cool but ..11:28
Stskeepsnot product ready11:28
ieatlintyeah, people seem very unsure of what is making 1.111:28
TiagoTiago_why call it somthing above 0.* if it's not product ready?11:29
ieatlinthave heard conflicting reports about qtmobility and qt 4.7 being there11:29
Stskeepsqt4.7 and qtmobility is there11:29
ieatlintcool11:29
Stskeeps1.1 is cool from the pov it's a lean and mean qt platform11:29
ieatlintand libmeegotouch premieres with 1.1 too right?11:29
Stskeepslibmeegotouch is already there11:29
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Stskeepsand that 1.1 is bloody easy to port to devices11:30
ieatlinthuh, thought 1.0 lacked the handset/tablet ux11:30
Stskeeps1.0 did11:30
psycho_oreosbroadcom on meego *shudders*, sure enough they recently decided to open up their sources on their latest wireless LAN chipsets but there's still not a great deal of support for the chipsets that are not covered by any of their native linux counterparts (namely most of the ones in wl)11:30
Stskeepsit came in early 1.1 phases11:30
ieatlintah, ok11:30
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Stskeepsa platform that's essentially "build a kernel, drop in root file system, put in your modules, add in your GLESv2/EGL libraries, boot Xorg", is really difficult to not like11:32
Stskeeps:P11:32
Stskeepsin order to get a proof of concept11:32
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TiagoTiago_wtf?! on a documentary on tv they say this guy that shot this girl that rejected him was deemed unfit for trail and now lives as a free man 0.011:33
ieatlintshe should've known better11:33
TiagoTiago_if a murderer is unfit for trail, he must also be unfit to be free11:34
TiagoTiago_trial*11:34
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DocScrutinizerieatlint: I was thinking about how to answer such init script Q in a more technical manner12:09
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DocScrutinizerieatlint: as a general rule of thumb nothing in /usr must be used before drives are mounted (though I seem to know meamo is violating this)12:10
ieatlintDocScrutinizer: yeah, my vague thoughts12:11
DocScrutinizerperl looks non-critical12:11
ieatlintbest solution i could think of, was to make a bash wrapper script for perl itself, and log when it's run12:11
ieatlintthen boot the device and see the log12:11
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DocScrutinizeryep, I thought of same for all /usr/bin  :-D12:12
DocScrutinizeror simply mount without noatime12:12
TiagoTiago_hm12:12
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DocScrutinizer~optification12:13
infobotfrom memory, optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish somebody had looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", or http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet one, two12:13
TiagoTiago_would it be safe to optify the whole /usr folder?12:14
DocScrutinizerno, you also need to sanitize the bugs somebody introduced - means move some needed binaries from /usr/bin to /bin12:14
TiagoTiago_i see12:15
jpinxN900has anyone managed to actually replace maemo with "real" debian using the maemo drivers for the nokia hardware?12:15
TiagoTiago_and no way to know which ones need that untill  after trying having them not there?12:15
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DocScrutinizerpossibly also /usr/share/?12:15
DocScrutinizerread all initscripts - or make a script read them :-P12:16
TiagoTiago_talking about that, i lost the link to that tutorial for bash scripting someone here gave me, could you gimme it again?12:17
TiagoTiago_please*12:17
DocScrutinizernp12:17
DocScrutinizermompls12:17
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DocScrutinizerhttp://tldp.org/LDP/abs/html/12:18
DocScrutinizerhttp://www.faqs.org/docs/bashman/bashref_toc.html#SEC_Contents12:19
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DocScrutinizerhttp://www.cit.gu.edu.au/~anthony/info/shell/script.hints12:21
DocScrutinizerdunno what's the last one12:21
DocScrutinizerhttp://www.cit.griffith.edu.au/~anthony/info/shell/  looks usefull12:22
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TiagoTiago_thx12:25
RST38hOh yeaaah: http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/17/nokias-plug-and-touch-turns-your-hdtv-into-a-giant-n8-video/12:26
TiagoTiago_interesting12:28
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TiagoTiago_"you don't have to physicly touch it, but it does help"  that's what she said!12:33
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RST38hmoo raster12:45
TiagoTiago~moo12:45
* infobot mooooooooo! I am cow, hear me moo, I weigh twice as much as you. I am cow, eating grass, methane gas comes out my ass12:45
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rasterRST38h:  boo!12:51
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kerioµ!12:55
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TiagoTiagois there a keyboard layout creator/editor for the N900 with  GUI?12:59
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DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: not since I last suggested somebody is building one13:32
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TiagoTiagowell, at least someone is working on it13:33
TiagoTiagoany idea on the progress?13:33
DocScrutinizerreally?13:33
DocScrutinizerwho?13:33
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TiagoTiagohm, no one then? I guess i misread what you said13:33
DocScrutinizersorry, probably my wording was adequately fuzzy13:34
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DocScrutinizerWe discussed it here some months ago, and somebody might have started on it, or not13:35
TiagoTiagooh, i see13:35
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DocScrutinizeractually I thought somebody did13:36
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DocScrutinizercan't recall details13:36
MNZ'ello folks13:37
DocScrutinizerlo MNZ13:37
TiagoTiagohowdy13:37
MNZhowsit going with y'all13:38
DocScrutinizeruh, reading a bit of shell script poetry for leisure :-)13:39
TiagoTiagoMicrosoft's Keyboard Layout Creator would be a great inspiration IMO, it does have some lame flaws here and there, but the general idea and the way you set the keys are a worthy inspiration13:39
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MNZanything major happening? nokia gone bankrupt, someone run maemo on the iphone, pigs flew, or anything?13:40
TiagoTiagonot that i know of, but that doesn't mean much13:40
lcukmmmm flying pre-bacon13:40
TiagoTiagojust ignite the atmosphere and you're served :P13:41
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MNZDocScrutinizer, read any perl poetry?13:42
DocScrutinizeryuck13:43
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DocScrutinizerlcuk: LOL13:43
MNZheh, you're missing out then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Perl13:45
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TiagoTiago_interesting13:49
TiagoTiago_i wonder what other languages allow for such trcikery13:49
MNZand don't forget JAPH, Just Another Perl Hacker.13:50
MNZTiny little scripts that look totally innocent but manage to somehow print out 'just another perl hacker'13:50
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MNZhttp://www.cpan.org/misc/japh <--- this stuff is AMAZING. Not all JAPHs though13:55
TiagoTiago_talk about free time13:58
MNZheh13:58
lcukTiagoTiago_, one does not find tiem to make perl scripts, its the result of sleeping on the keyboard mostly13:59
lcuksomeone just got it to compile13:59
MNZhey don't diss on perl! This is beauty at its finest13:59
TiagoTiago_i once fought sleep programming for so long that the characters on screen actually became a bunch of ants and started running around14:00
rasterlcuk: i thought perl scripts are the results of peoples pet cats walking across their kbds while editors are open.14:00
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lcukraster, that implies forethought to open a code editor14:00
MNZ:| you guys have no idea what you can do with one line of perl14:00
MNZone line of well thought of perl, that is14:01
rasterlcuk:  nah - accidentally opened editors14:01
rasterpeople left theirt machines and did something useful14:01
TiagoTiago_i have a good idea what can be acomplished, but no idea on how to14:01
rastercats walked across kbd and invented perl scripts14:01
raster:)14:01
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rasterMNZ:  u have no idea what you can do with a cat :)14:01
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MNZraster, haha well if cats can write perl then I want one :P14:02
DocScrutinizer51raster: :-)))14:02
rasterDocScrutinizer51:  doc!14:02
lcukhey debianites \o have a question:   supposing I download (via git or other) a source package and cd into its folder, is there a dpkg-* command for getting the builddeps, this of course assumes the source was not in the repository already.14:02
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lcuk^ that is not possible according to debian folks14:03
DocScrutinizer51perl makes my eyes bleed14:03
psycho_oreosI doubt it, I think dpkg-* requires sources with debian patches, namely a directory under the source tree to have debian/*14:03
rasterlcuk:  u mean just magically create a deb from ANY source?14:03
MNZlcuk, how about grep Depends debian/control14:03
MNZoh14:04
TiagoTiago_looking at those examples of perl code, it seems to me the language itself doesn't enforce obfuscated code, but it is flexible enough to allow twisted levels of it14:04
lcukraster, i want to run "make" on the package I just git clone'd14:04
MNZyou mean no debian/ ?14:04
lcukMNZ, sure14:04
MNZTiagoTiago_, exactly. Except all the hackers with their obfuscation are giving it a bad rep :(14:04
rasterlcuk: dpkg has nothing to do with you being able to run make14:05
lcuki have put a note in the readme about the builddeps14:05
rasterits your job to provide builddeps14:05
lcukraster, make doesnt think about it, but for packages with debian/ folder it should work14:05
rasternot upstream src14:05
MNZlcuk, just ./configure the package and see :P14:05
rasterthey have no clue what distro u run14:05
rasterwhat version14:05
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lcukMNZ, no autotools14:05
rasterand what packages have those deps14:05
TiagoTiago_perhaps someone should relelase a perl variant that will not copile code that isn't obfuscated14:05
rasterand even how they can get installed14:05
rasterno upstream can sanely handle that14:05
lcukraster, the debian/ folder does contain everything but the Depends: line isnt formatted for use with apt :P14:06
rasteroh it has a debian dir?14:06
lcukmost do14:07
rasterwith all the right debian packahing info for that src?14:07
lcukyes14:07
MNZlcuk, can you re-explain the situation?14:07
rasterdpng-buildpackage -r fakeroot14:07
lcukcant build package14:07
raster(in the dir that has debian/)14:07
lcukbecause the build deps arent yet installed14:07
rasterthen install them14:07
lcukwhat are they?14:07
rasterthe debina pkg info should have all of that14:07
MNZjust grep for 'Depends'. what's wrong with that??14:08
lcukMNZ, sure but it takes mucking around for each one14:08
rasterlcuk: the build fails with src (makefiles or configure) complaining of missing deps or headers etc??14:09
MNZno, quick regexp for clean up and just shoot through 'xargs apt-get install' I suppose. There WAS a command for this... hold on14:09
lcukMNZ, sure its a quick regexp14:09
lcukbut every developer who gets a package from git may have to do the same thing14:10
rasteror there is a Build-Depends:14:10
MNZlcuk, this package is not in the repos ?14:10
lcukthe dpkg-whatthefuckarethebuilddeps would be simpler14:10
rasterand u want those build deps installed for u in 1 simple command?14:10
lcukraster, installed or listed yes14:10
rasterwell if u can list - u can install14:12
lcuksure14:12
rasteras such the build-depends line isnt just a pckg list14:12
rasterbut also specific version depsn etc. too14:12
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lcukbasically the same operation that apt-get builddep [package] has14:13
lcukbut for source folders14:13
rasterhmm14:14
rasterwell normally u'd want apt-get build-dep14:15
lcukyes - but in the case of maemo, downloading a debian package source and trying to port/bring it to maemo14:15
lcukthe debian package usually expects the whole debian repositories are available14:16
lcukthis just isnt the case and usually need to build multiple things14:16
rasteryeah14:16
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DocScrutinizer51another interesting problem: how to check initscripts for not using 'nonexistent' commands (like /usr/sbin/foo which due to usr not mounted would fail on boot)?  thought along some ;;which 'strings init.d';; - of course a bit more sophisticated, Or mount rootfs (which has /usr now) without noatime. Or sed a wrappermscript to log invocations for every bin in /usr/(s)bin. Are there better/existing ideas/tools?14:18
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rasterlcuk: no command i know of to do that14:22
lcukDocScrutinizer51, grep for "/usr"14:22
rasterother than writing a script of your own14:22
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lcukraster, indeed, hence me asking its just something I have noticed with many packages I have gotten14:23
DocScrutinizerlcuk: yeah, not that you mention it, it's highly questionable why /usr/* should be in path (if any at all) of initscripts14:24
DocScrutinizers/not/now/14:24
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: lcuk: yeah, now that you mention it, it's highly questionable why /usr/* should be in path (if any at all) of initscripts14:24
DocScrutinizerthanks fellas14:24
MNZlcuk, some intelligent grepping reveals that you can list build-deps... but only after building XD so if you have a binary or you can already do a dpkg-buildpackage then you can list stuff14:25
MNZYou can check for yourself:14:26
MNZfor i in `find /usr/share/man -iname "dpkg*"| xargs`; do echo $i; zcat $i | nroff| grep -i --color depend; done14:26
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lcukMNZ, great little chicken and egg one isnt it :)14:26
MNZlcuk, yeah it's pretty weird14:26
TiagoTiago_why the regular clock isn't set the same way the clock is set when you insert a new SIM?14:26
lcuki just added an apt-get line in the README notes14:26
lcukso getting from git and trying to build is as simple as possible14:27
lcuki wonder how other systems deal with similar14:27
lcukie, is there an rpm equiv14:27
lcukTiagoTiago_, internal battery for clock foobar?14:28
DocScrutinizerbut then... we not only got init.d/*, we also got event.d (upstart), and especially buggering: there are scripts that run *after* >>mount /dev/mmcfoo /usr<< which of course may use all of the usr/(s)bin cmds. How to tell which are the scripts/events that lack a mounted /usr ?14:29
TiagoTiago_no, i mean, when you insert a new sim, you get a clock with arms for hours and minutes, and you drag each arm to set the time like on a physical clock, but then during regular use, you just scroll thru a list of numbers14:30
lcukahhh14:30
lcukone uses gtk itself the other doesnt14:30
DocScrutinizerlcuk: grep usr /etc/init.d/*  just gives too much to get me anywhere14:31
lcukok14:31
RST38hmoo lcuk14:31
TiagoTiago_that type of inconsistency reinforces the impression Nokia didn't put enough effort in the N900 :/14:31
lcukTiagoTiago_, hmm14:32
lcuki, for one, have seen incredible effort put in by nokia on the n90014:32
lcukand everyone else besides14:32
lcukTiagoTiago_, tell you what14:33
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago_: yep, the initial settings app is MUCH better than that usual incredible scroll-lists crap for date and time14:33
lcukyou implement that funky clock as a gtk widget14:33
lcukpush it towards maemo extras14:33
lcukget it working perfectly14:33
TiagoTiago_there is lots of great things, but also lots of stuff that seems like they  didn't finish what they started and jsut released it14:33
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* DocScrutinizer51 wonders if that date/time scroll lists already got a number in crashanddie's twentifive14:36
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Papayawhiphi guys, maybe a stupid question, but i couldn't find the ubuntu-desktop-development-vmware-image. only the ubuntu server edition, which isn't preconfigured. do u know where i can find it?14:39
DocScrutinizer51err, hold it. the calendar settings in that osso-startup-settings thingy actually is even worse than standard one. I wonder if zenity is fixable and usable as a template for dates setting14:40
MohammadAG51why doesn't the welcome setup screen not use the hildon scrollable lists14:40
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SpeedEvilScrollable lists are stupid14:40
SpeedEvilAt least for 0-5914:41
RST38hI am sure some UX designer thought them "cool"14:41
SpeedEvilThey are cool.14:41
BugBlauwthat welcome screen list sucks big time14:41
SpeedEvilCool != good14:41
RST38hAnd no actual testing has been done to insure their usability =)14:42
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merlin1991Papayawhip, the desktop image is MIA atm14:42
SpeedEvilI love the 'we wrote the spec, it's perfect, we don't need actual reports of usability' approach.14:43
* SpeedEvil sighs.14:43
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Papayawhipmerlin1991: MIA? ^^14:43
Papayawhipdont know this alias^^14:43
merlin1991missing in action :D14:44
Papayawhipah :D14:44
RST38hSpeedEvil: That is not the funniest thing14:44
RST38hSpeedEvil: The funniest thing was when Maemo5 Style Guide explicitely told developers to remove features to make their UI simpler :)14:44
TiagoTiago_that doesn't sound right14:45
alteregoTiagoTiago_: have you ever used Maemo4?14:45
alteregoDiablo on N8x0?14:45
TiagoTiago_i can't say i have14:45
TiagoTiago_ditto14:45
alteregoWell, if you had, you'd know that that doesn't sound too far from the truth ;)14:45
alteregoDifference between Maemo 4 and Maemo 5, +1 Pretty Graphics, -100 features :)14:46
TiagoTiago_some features could actually make thigns simpler, so it isn't removing features, there gotta be a better algorithm for achiving useful simplicity14:46
SpeedEvilIdiot mode.14:47
* MohammadAG pokes alterego 14:47
TiagoTiago_lol14:47
alteregoInsight :)14:47
alteregoHello MohammadAG14:47
mkpaa(I already asked thsi early in the morning, but now that someone is awake) is there some straight forward way to boot n810 from external memory card and/or is there a good howto somewhere?14:47
MNZlcuk, slightly change the grepping patter and came up with: dpkg-checkbuilddeps debian/control14:48
MNZlcuk, that command is in the package dpkg-dev: /usr/bin/dpkg-checkbuilddeps14:48
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ShadowJKI think there's a clone to sd howto on wiki.maemo.org somewhere..14:49
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lcukoooh MNZ cool14:49
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mkpaashadow, do you refer to this http://wiki.maemo.org/Booting_from_a_flash_card ?14:51
ShadowJKprobably, i've never done it myself14:53
TiagoTiago_have you guys seen that sawpollube thing on TMO?14:54
TiagoTiago_s/sqpollube/swappolube14:55
TiagoTiago_erm, why it doesn't work with me?14:55
TiagoTiago_ah, doubletypoe :(14:55
MNZsyntax error14:55
MNZs/syntax/syntax/14:55
MNZor infobot is asleep14:55
MNZ~botsnack14:55
infobotthanks, MNZ14:55
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TiagoTiago_heh14:56
TiagoTiago_anyway, have you guys seen it?14:56
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TermanaDesirealterego: what features is maemo 5 missing compared to Diablo. I've used both and haven't really noticed anything missing.14:57
mkpaaso flashing initfs is only way to boot from external card?14:57
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alteregoTermanaDesire: filemanager is much limited14:58
alteregoTermanaDesire: basically just a load of config options and things were removed.14:58
TiagoTiago_the other day i went out, it was a very sunny day, the screen of my N900, at full bright, looked darker than indoors, disapointing :(14:59
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TiagoTiago_why is it so hard to have a LCD screen that takes advantage of external lighting?15:06
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pexiTiagoTiago_, i have been wondering that too becase there are some projects where ppl have build video projector from a laptop screen panel and old school projectors15:11
pexiand it looks fine15:11
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RST38hTiagoTiago: Have you considering googling for the answer why? :)15:16
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yabbapappawhy oh why I just can't use .hide() to hide tabs in qt15:23
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MohammadAGX-Fade, ping15:31
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TiagoTiago_is it ok to have a file named the same as a folder? (in the same fodler obviously)15:35
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MNZTiagoTiago_, no15:35
TiagoTiago_then i'm stumped15:36
TiagoTiago_http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=3719815:36
TiagoTiago_what do i need to do in the step where it says i should have a file with the "echo nameserver..."  named  /etc/ppp/ip-up.d ?15:38
MNZthat's not the file's name15:38
MNZjust create a file in that dir15:38
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TiagoTiago_hm, ok15:39
MNZdirs that end in .d usually have all their files parsed as config files by whatever prog15:39
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MohammadAGwhy can't the auotubilder access repository.maemo.org :(15:39
MohammadAGW: Failed to fetch http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/dists/fremantle/Release.gpg  Could not connect to repository.maemo.org:80 (92.123.155.66). - connect (111: Connection refused)15:40
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TiagoTiago_crap, it seesm there are a bunch of correctiong tot he instructions but isnrtead of editing the  original post they comment about it bellow int he thread15:41
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MohammadAGnice someone broke the builder15:42
MohammadAGit used to be able to access it a week or two ago, now it doesn't15:42
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: it's dead, Jim15:55
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CarnequeIs it possible to identify that the device connecting to a certain webpage is the N900?15:59
CarnequeThrough javascript maybe?15:59
alteregoThe user-agent HTTP header16:00
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, and so will somebody else if they don't show up today :P16:01
MohammadAGare there any garage admins other than X-Fade?16:01
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* noobmonk3y waves16:02
Carnequealterego, the accept is specified on the server level?16:03
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Carnequeor within the page?16:05
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Carnequenm, I got it16:06
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CarnequeIf anyone already has this javascript code available let me know... to request the headers and identify the phone as N90016:11
Carnequethanks16:11
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MNZCarneque, it's in navigator.userAgent  IIRC16:15
MNZalert(navigator.userAgent) and see16:15
MNZnot sure how cross-browser that is though16:16
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RST38h"Security personnel may find the termination of a subject that is not strictly alive problematic, however field tests have shown that sufficient gross physical trauma will render a subject non-animate."16:20
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GAN800How does anybody call an iPhone usable. . . .16:22
RST38hDepends on the intended use, I guess16:22
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GAN800Whatever it is, it's a good thing I'm only stuck with this thing until Monday16:24
* luke-jr hopes the same goes for him too16:25
anunakinHi All!16:25
luke-jrCarneque: N900 isn't a phone. You can run any browser on it. Unlikely there's any simple way to ID it as a device.16:25
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anunakinI need to know how to connect n900 to internet using 3G on another cellphone?16:26
ShadowJKheh16:26
ShadowJKi guess easiest is to run joikuspot or equivalent on the other cellphone16:26
anunakinbut it is for use N900 like a hotspot..16:27
anunakinI want use another cell with N900, like on N810 ...16:28
luke-jr[06:46:25] <alterego> Difference between Maemo 4 and Maemo 5, +1 Pretty Graphics, -100 features :)16:28
DocScrutinizerGAN800: 800 :-D16:28
GAN800Piece of shit16:29
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MohammadAGLOL16:29
luke-jr...16:29
DocScrutinizer810>80016:29
ieatlintCarneque: the user agent can give you a decent clue to the phone16:30
ieatlinton the default fennec browser, it says "maemo" and "n900" in the user agent16:30
ieatlinton opera, it says "maemo" in the user agent16:30
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DocScrutinizeranunakin: seems pretty few n900 users considered this a useful scenario, so there's probably only hints from n8x0 times how to tether external GSM modem to a maemo device16:32
DocScrutinizeron N810 I used BT PAN16:33
anunakinI looking on bt pan too16:33
anunakinI just bought my N900, and have on N810...16:33
noobmonk3yanyone know a good place to see examples of pyqt QtMultimediaKit ?16:33
ShadowJKanunakin, no I did not suggest you run joikuspot on N900. I suggested you run joikuspot on the other phone, or equivalent software16:33
MohammadAGnoobmonk3y, no, make your own :P16:34
* noobmonk3y grumbles16:34
MohammadAGthere are some examples in the repo, but they're C++ afaik16:34
noobmonk3ypoo16:34
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: modulo there's usually no such thing for other phones16:34
anunakinI have two sim cards, one have a 3G internet only plan, and another sim has a commom plan16:34
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ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, joikuspot even works on my ancient E70 :)16:34
anunakininternet only plan is very cheap16:34
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: ooh16:34
dnearyw00t_, Ping?16:35
dnearyw00t_, Did you get my email?16:35
anunakinand with ulimited traffic16:35
anunakinunlimited16:35
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ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, probably the only reason joikuspot for n900 exists is all the people coming from symbian whined at joiku software to port it to n900...16:35
DocScrutinizerI see16:36
dnearyinfobot, seen w00t_16:36
DocScrutinizernever been much interested in joghurt sport16:36
infobotw00t_ is currently on #maemo #meego, last said: 'moin thiago_home btw :)'.16:36
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dnearyinfobot, Thanks. How long ago did he say that?16:36
infobotdneary: de nada16:36
dnearyIf I didn't know better, I'd say infobot was a real person16:37
dnearyDocScrutinizer: what's yoghurt sport?16:37
DocScrutinizer~botsnack16:37
infobotthanks, DocScrutinizer16:37
MohammadAG~botsmack16:38
infobotOWW!16:38
DocScrutinizerdneary: errr joku spot16:38
MohammadAGJoikuSpot sucks for including an omap1 only module16:39
MohammadAGand being closed source etc..16:39
Carnequethanks guys for the help on that... just saw your comments16:39
DocScrutinizerand doing lots of shit really16:39
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MohammadAGit should've stayed on symbian16:39
MohammadAGit works like shit on maemo16:39
Stskeepsdneary: he's on travel to london16:39
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MohammadAGvoting's kinda tough :P16:40
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DocScrutinizerheh MohammadAG, let's sell a package containing a reduced set of coreutils :-D16:40
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DocScrutinizerof course not based on the GPL ones16:41
anunakinI compiled x48 emulator to N90016:41
DocScrutinizerlet's call it yoghurt core16:41
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, is $10 good enough?16:41
anunakinWorks very well16:41
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: fine with me16:41
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* DocScrutinizer ponders selling the luxury version of *# :-P16:44
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, what does it do?16:45
DocScrutinizercomes with a 5 pages pdf about SSC, plus maybe some queenbeecon config files to do particular SSC the 'convenience way'16:46
DocScrutinizeror, even better, some vcards to add virtual contacts holding SSC, to addrbook16:48
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DocScrutinizersurname: phonecontrol; firstname:disable_all_redirections; number:##002#16:50
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DocScrutinizerthe longer I think about it, the less of a pun it feels like. Maybe I really should shoot such a thing into OVI16:52
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ieatlintwell, i just learnt something... "cervical" can refer to one's neck16:53
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DocScrutinizererr, is this related? :-D16:55
ieatlinti'm just going to say yes16:56
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* DocScrutinizer is concerned about his cervical integrity16:56
ieatlintyeah, i've got some cervical pain myself16:56
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DocScrutinizerI hope ovi doesn't break your neck usually16:58
DocScrutinizerotherwise fail to see the link16:58
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ieatlintwhat's the cost to publish with ovi? i seem to recall seeing an annual 50EUR at some point16:58
DocScrutinizersounds affordable16:59
RST38hOvi will take your sanity away16:59
DocScrutinizerno way, not possible here :oP16:59
RST38hDoc: 30% of sales *and* EUR50/year is not affordable16:59
ieatlintthere was also some extra fee for signing the application, but not sure if that applies to the n90017:00
RST38hMore like adding insult to the injury (generic CC processor will take 10-15%)17:00
DocScrutinizeryeah, that's gross17:00
ieatlintRST38h: 30% for standard sales, they keep 40-50% for sales that aren't simple credit card transactions17:00
DocScrutinizereeeew17:00
RST38hieatlint: ah, even "better"17:00
RST38hand for that you are getting what?17:00
ieatlintgoogle is $25 one time fee... apple is $100, but i don't know if that's one-time or per year17:01
RST38honetime17:01
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Termanaper year17:01
DocScrutinizernow I see why OVI is such an incredible success17:01
TermanaUnless they changed it17:01
RST38hYea, it is a perfect place17:01
ieatlintthe new intel store that is going to be tied into ovi is $100/year... not sure if ovi will adopt that as well17:01
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RST38hThe new Intel store will become even bigger success17:02
TermanaRST38h, left them at home did you?17:02
RST38hleft whom?17:03
TermanaRST38h, your sarcasm tags17:03
Termana:P17:03
RST38hoh those...I just never closed the opening one.17:03
DocScrutinizerok, I'll simply change the hw lockcode on +#-luxury installation (of course with prior asking user to click the [only possible] OK button), then ship the new hw lock when payment comes in :-P17:03
RST38hDoc <-- talking gibberish17:04
ieatlintno, it's an awesome plan17:04
TermanaDocScrutinizer, you do that for the paid version, and make them pay for the paid version by saying you'll send them their new lockcode17:05
Termanafor the free version*17:05
Termanaerr damn it17:05
DocScrutinizer"you are installing *#-luxury. This sw costs 10$. [ok]  [agree]" -> change device lock code17:05
Termanayou do it for the free version, to force them to buy the paid version17:05
ieatlintyeah, that's what he was saying :P17:05
RST38hUsing punctuation marks in application names should be punishable by something.17:06
* RST38h have not yet figured out the right punishment17:07
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TermanaRST38h, punch-uation is the punishment17:07
* RST38h was thinking in terms of hand-copying a few volumes of Encyclopedia Britannicaor something17:07
GAN800I keep trying to tap outside the dialogs17:07
RST38hahhahah17:07
RST38hdoes this abomination even have an irc client? :)17:08
GAN800Colloquy17:09
GAN800$1.99 :/17:10
GAN800Copy paste makes it impossible to move the insert point17:10
TermanaGAN800, you iPhone user, you!17:11
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GAN800_For about 2 more days. :(17:11
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TermanaGAN800_, are you having your N900 repaired or something?17:12
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* RST38h checked out Colloquy source code17:12
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RST38hObjectiveC. Funny stuff.17:12
ieatlintthe way to fuck with him is to send him urls for really awesome stuff17:12
ieatlintRST38h: it's iphone.. yeah, objectivec17:13
RST38hLooks like C with a diarrhea17:13
Termanaieatlint, you mean flash content?17:13
Termana:P17:13
ieatlintTermana: nah, any link17:13
ieatlintit's not like he can just click on it and stay on irc :P17:13
Termanaieatlint, :P he can actually in iOS417:13
ieatlintgo ahead, switch apps and ... oh ... right ... :P17:13
RST38hwhat about iphone multitasking? hasn't Jobs allowed it?17:14
ieatlinthehe, yeah, the handful of apps that have pre-approval for it17:14
TermanaColloquy takes advantage of Apple's concurrency apis17:14
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TermanaSee what I did there?17:14
* Termana troll face17:14
Termanaconcurrency vs multitasking17:14
GAN800Termana: No September proto whose NAND or eMMC iscaput17:15
GAN800So, I ordered a new one17:15
TermanaGAN800, ouch. Well I guess that means you like it better than anything else on the market right now17:16
DocScrutinizerGAN800: you always should have a spare on your shelf17:16
TermanaHard to tell, when you slag it so much :P17:16
GAN800Died 2 days before my lease was up. Gottalove that.17:16
GAN800Yeah, my spare is on loan to a friend17:16
TiagoTiago_Doc, don't forget to intercept the powerbutton, add the locking thing to the boot process, and shutting down SSH etc17:17
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago_: nah, that's a package for the silly17:18
RST38hGAN: Just copied all the data and apps off my proto to a new N90017:18
RST38hGAN: Going to pass the proto to the next Moscow-based guy in the queue17:18
DocScrutinizereven changing lock code to anything different than default 12345 will cause the intended pay enforcement mechanins go fail17:19
RST38hBTW, data migration has been pretty uneventful17:19
RST38hDoc: I know it is a stupid question, but what does your application do? =)17:19
ieatlintit asks for $1017:19
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ieatlintisn't that enough?17:19
DocScrutinizerlo, exactly17:19
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GAN800Seriously. Useless as a mobile computer17:20
TiagoTiago_in my experience, migration is one of the aspects where Nokia excels17:20
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RST38hWell, Symbian migration is a pain17:20
RST38hBut Maemo5 ended up being pretty straightforward17:20
TiagoTiago_it was a breeze to migrate my stuff from my 3650 to my N73, and then from my N73 to my N90017:20
DocScrutinizerRST38h: * DocScrutinizer ponders selling the luxury version of *# :-P  ---  <DocScrutinizer> comes with a 5 pages pdf about SSC, plus maybe some queenbeecon config files to do particular SSC the 'convenience way'17:21
TiagoTiago_didn't even need a PC or cables17:21
RST38hGAN: iPhone is not a mobile computer. It is a religious artifact.17:21
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TiagoTiago_RST38h: lol17:21
SwedeMikeI'm always amazed how little vendors seem to care about making it easy to migrate from one of their phones to another of the same vendor. It's as hard/easy to go to another vendor as buying a new from from the same vendor as the old phone.17:21
GAN800Although I like having remote software for everything from INSTEON to Roku or you coffee maker17:22
RST38hDoc: Coooooooooooooool17:22
TiagoTiago_SwedeMike: Nokia hasn't disapointed me in that aspect so far17:22
TermanaI didn't need to do any data migration with my Desire. I just signed in and it had everything waiting for me, email, contacts... :P17:22
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DocScrutinizeryeah, isn't it? X-P17:22
* RST38h reading through a long thread where iPhone users explain to the thread originator that he REALLY does not need to be able tocopy mp3 files to a device or play by folder17:23
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TiagoTiago_Termana: is that oen of those thigns where htye keep the data on a server where people hack into to get  gossip about famous people?17:23
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DocScrutinizerRST38h: even better than fart-app17:23
RST38hBecause iTunes handles everything for him, including getting all the music, and if he has got an mp3 file, he has most likely pirated it anyway17:23
RST38hWhcih is BAD.17:23
TermanaTiagoTiago_, personally I don't do anything that I don't care about people knowing - so whatever Tin Foil Hat Man :P17:24
SwedeMikelike, why is there no way to sync the t9 dictionary between devices?17:24
TermanaIf someone wants to know about my lonely life they can go ahead.17:24
TiagoTiago_ah, yeah, those details aren't included17:24
TiagoTiago_if i decide to stop paying my carrier all my data is still with me17:25
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TermanaTiagoTiago_, don't bash me too much, I own an N900 too :P17:25
RST38hIt has never been your data to begin with!17:25
TiagoTiago_heh17:25
TermanaRST38h, lol17:25
TiagoTiago_lol17:25
DocScrutinizerRST38h: play by folder? useless crap, see maemo mediaplayer17:25
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RST38hDoc: Yea, maemo mediaplayer is useless crap.17:25
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GAN8003rd party stuff will, though.17:26
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DocScrutinizerGAN800: ooh, somebody made a real app out of my simple idea to put up some shellscript for playlist generation?17:27
DocScrutinizerGAN800: or were you referring to 3rd party mediaplayers?17:28
RST38hDoc: There is an easier way ;)17:29
DocScrutinizerwhich one?17:29
RST38hDoc: Search extras for "grilo". Install it. Go to the app menu in the mediaplayer.17:29
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GAN800DocScrutinizer: Yes17:29
* DocScrutinizer googling grilo17:30
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TiagoTiago_that's cricket in portuguese (at least brazilian portuguese)17:30
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TiagoTiago_as in the bug, not the sport17:34
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DocScrutinizer51RST38h: nice, alas useless as it doewsn't sort files in a folder - they are displayed and added like found in inodes17:39
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DocScrutinizer51or sorted by size or any other non-obvious and useless criteria17:42
DocScrutinizer5102 03 11 07 09 05 01...17:43
RST38hDoc: That I am not sure about. I would sort by name of course.17:44
RST38hDoc: If it does not, email the author17:44
DocScrutinizer51yeah17:44
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RST38hjavispedro moo17:45
DocScrutinizer51a pitty, such a nicely integrated usefull feature, and then that17:45
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javispedromoo17:45
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* javispedro curses17:46
javispedroI say "gimme the source so I can reproduce it" and I get a half .c file that doesn't even compile, not to mention it doesn't link because it's missing 99% of the project17:46
DocScrutinizer51lol17:47
RST38hjavispedro: nice, what project? =)17:47
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javispedroit's all on tmo17:47
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DocScrutinizer51what's tmo? :-P17:48
Sampppatalk.maemo.org17:48
javispedro_our_ tmo.17:48
DocScrutinizer51~tmo17:48
infobotsomebody said tmo was http://talk.maemo.org, or too much off-topic17:48
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javispedro~cookie17:48
infobotHey javispedro, zip 48603 is Saginaw Saginaw MI17:48
RST38hhmm17:48
jeewhat doing£¿17:49
jeetalk£¿£¿£¿17:49
javispedrobroken charset warning17:49
jee(¨t_¨s)#17:49
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer17:50
RST38hjee: you may want to turn that uniceode off.17:50
jeehello£¿£¿£¿17:50
TiagoTiago_jee>hello£¿£¿£¿17:50
TiagoTiago_was that intentional?17:50
DocScrutinizerMTHELs powering up!17:51
jeenono17:51
DocScrutinizerok17:51
* DocScrutinizer switching MTHELs to standby again17:52
jeeI'm using opera will not be used uniceode17:52
TiagoTiago_ what is a MTHEL?17:52
*** ChanServ sets mode: -o DocScrutinizer17:52
jeeWhere are you from ah?17:53
TiagoTiago_unicode usually is not a problem, though some implementations of it do lack accuracy17:53
jee          ¡ð17:53
TiagoTiago_I'm from Brazil17:53
jee         ¨O£Ü)17:53
jee©~©~©~¡ò&macr;¨R&macr;¡ò17:53
DocScrutinizerMobile Tactical High Energy Laser - lrn2google17:53
jee ¨q¦ä¦ä¦ä¨r17:53
jee {/ @  @ /}17:53
jee  ( (oo) )17:53
jee   ¦á¦á¦á17:53
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer17:54
javispedroMTHEL fire!17:54
*** DocScrutinizer sets mode: +q jee!*@*17:54
kerio\o/17:54
TiagoTiago_ah, i was thinking it was some sort of in joke17:54
javispedrowell, at least the guy was right in that he was using Opera17:55
javispedroCTCP-VERSION: Opera/9.80 (Windows NT 5.1; U; zh-cn) Presto/2.6.30 Version/10.6217:55
javispedroopera has an irc client now?17:55
DocScrutinizero.O17:55
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RST38hOpera does IRC?17:55
RST38hInteresting17:55
TiagoTiago_perhaps it was  some web based irc client?17:55
kerioopera desktop does, i think17:55
kerioStarting with Opera 7.50, there is an integrated IRC (Internet Relay Chat) client. It has all basic IRC features, including DCC file transfer (send/receive files to/from users).17:56
javispedroand broken charset.17:56
RST38hOMG17:56
DocScrutinizerplus sending ascii gfx BS17:56
TiagoTiago_perhaps it was bad encodding setting17:56
kerioRST38h: can you say "feature creep"?17:56
RST38hno.17:57
TiagoTiago_that could have been simply he pasting a multiline text17:57
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RST38hCould, or couldn't have, who cares now...17:57
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DocScrutinizerdon't you see the pig head?17:57
DocScrutinizerascii gfx shit17:58
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DocScrutinizerbut obviously still with a borked charset17:59
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keriowhy do we need anything other than utf8, right now?18:00
kerioit's 2010, come on18:00
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TiagoTiago_the ascii gfx may or may not have been Opera's fault18:00
javispedrokerio: I've just been in talks with someone who liked nedit (a bare xlib text editor)18:00
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javispedroguess what?18:00
javispedronedit doesn't support utf-818:00
javispedropfft.18:00
MohammadAGrejoining doesn't remove +q18:00
keriowell then nedit is a crappy editor18:00
javispedroagreed.18:00
RST38hnedit is motif based and it is cool18:00
DocScrutinizerI don't give a shit, jee is free to /query me if he sorted his things18:00
javispedroRST38h: it's motif? O.o18:01
Adeonsounds pretty bad if an editor in this age doesn't support utf-818:01
RST38hbut I like PICO better, nedit is too smart for me18:01
kerioAdeon: last release was 2004101318:01
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, what if opera doesn't have /query xP18:01
RST38hutf-8 is overrated18:01
Adeonhaha18:01
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: then I'd say screwit18:01
RST38hFace it, you should all have learned English by now =)18:02
javispedroheh18:02
RST38h(at least to a degree needed to operate computer UIs)18:02
kerioRST38h: half of unicode are ancient glyphs18:02
RST38hkerio: nice! and are you using them?18:02
kerioof course not18:03
keriomy brother does, though18:03
kerio(polytonic greek)18:03
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RST38hkerio: then why not leave unicode use to people who study ancient glyphs? =)18:03
lcukeven using ASCII half of the stuff in the console uses ancient glyphs and runes18:03
kerioRST38h: because µ18:03
DocScrutinizeru18:04
DocScrutinizer:-P18:04
SpeedEvilASCII most of the chars are normal18:04
SpeedEvilASCII is 7 bit18:04
Adeonhow about my åäö that don't exist in plain ASCII!18:04
RST38h+ optional 1 bit if you are using an extra alphabet18:04
DocScrutinizerascii SI is nice though18:04
SpeedEvilASCII is 7 bit.18:04
SpeedEvilThe high 128 chars are not ASCII18:05
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RST38hhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_symbol18:05
RST38hThe REAL reason for Unicode.18:05
RST38h(yes, you guessed right, it is PORN)18:06
DocScrutinizerman ascii ftw18:07
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RST38h"Dear Toshiba, really love your laptop, but could you make the keys light up next time?"18:09
javispedro"No. You bought it already, so I already took your money, and I don't care what happens to the company after I leave it."18:10
DocScrutinizererr, like on iPad vkbd, or what?18:10
DocScrutinizer'make keys light up' doesn't make sense to me18:11
javispedroI'm thinking mbp-like backlight18:12
DocScrutinizeraah18:12
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* DocScrutinizer drools over his ever shining keyring18:14
RST38hOf course, whoever invented these "island" keyboards has to be made to type on them for eternity18:14
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keriomy keyboard works fine18:14
kerio:|18:14
DocScrutinizer'ever' == >25 years18:14
kerio"island" keyboard18:14
javispedrokill them with fire!18:15
kerioreally, what's so bad about them18:15
RST38hOk, "Firmware 1.3 on its way" thread dissolved into usual lemming chorus, unsubscribing18:15
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RST38hthey are pain to type on.18:15
* DocScrutinizer burps18:15
DocScrutinizer~pr1.318:15
infobotmethinks pr1.3 is a ban'able subject now.....18:15
kerio/dcc send DocScrutinizer education18:15
DocScrutinizer~factinfo pr1.318:16
infobotpr1.3 -- created by noobmonk3y <~noobmonk3@host86-178-53-101.range86-178.btcentralplus.com> at Tue May 25 07:13:59 2010 (116 days); last modified at Tue May 25 11:13:27 2010 by crashanddie_; it has been requested 12 times, last by DocScrutinizer, 35s ago.18:16
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kerioinfobot: pr1.3 is a bannable subkect18:16
infobot...but pr1.3 is already something else...18:16
kerioyou lack in flexibility, infobot18:16
RST38h~factinfo moo18:16
infobotmoo -- created by mgeary <n=mgeary@166.70.44.49> at Fri Sep 28 15:18:07 2007 (1085 days); last modified at Fri Sep 28 15:19:22 2007 by fungus!n=olsonl@bromine.sosstaffing.com; it has been requested 114 times, last by TiagoTiago, 5h 31m 27s ago.18:16
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javispedroRST38h: is there any thread on tmo that doesn't dissolve into that?18:17
RST38hmodified by fungus in 2007... mhm18:17
RST38hjavispedro: dunno, all I have seen do, eventually18:17
javispedropreviously you could prevent that by carefully adding some technobabble in between the thread18:17
RST38hjavispedro: Maybe if we select a thread title that does not contain any keywords lemmings are sensitive to...18:18
javispedrobut now someone reads between the technobabble and says "this must mean symbian for n900 is coming!!" and ruins the thread18:18
RST38hjavispedro: or that chuck norris crap.18:18
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lcuksymbian is nice, and we always say OSS is about freedom of choice18:19
javispedrooh, I don't doubt that.18:19
lcukI bet some people would like symbian on n90018:19
javispedroI don't doubt that either.18:19
javispedroI doubt someone is working on it.18:19
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RST38hlcuk: Admit you got that infection from RevdKathy? =)18:20
lcukRST38h, not at all18:20
lcukI have said for many years that Nokia devices would be great to come with an OS select on first boot :)18:20
TiagoTiago_Once they open it enough, wouldn't it be easy to port it to the N900 given the hardware is somewhat shared?18:20
javispedroTiagoTiago_: as easy to port as Windows CE!18:21
TiagoTiago_reallly?18:21
lcukTiagoTiago_, well theres little other things which would need to be solved I believe18:21
TiagoTiago_like what?18:21
DocScrutinizerespecially to N900, with all the nice open hw drivers... err did I say that?18:21
lcukn900 has no dedicated call/cancel buttons on the facia - i think most/all have them18:21
javispedrowell18:21
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javispedrodroid devices also "must have" certain buttons18:21
lcukthey would have to be soft buttons etc18:21
TiagoTiago_there are plenty buttons to choose from18:21
javispedrosee nitdroid18:21
RST38hlcuk: "If grandmother had balls, she would be granfather"18:22
javispedrowhere they abuse the camera button / focus button18:22
lcukyuck18:22
RST38hAs things stand though, you have got what you have got, so the answer to all these Symbian/Maemo "proposals" is a no.18:22
user_can we have windows CE on N900?18:22
RST38huser: Yes, VMWare has done that.18:22
user_woooot!18:23
user_VMware is on N900?18:23
TiagoTiago_you could always add virtual buttons and reduce the  reported screen resolution by 16 lines or somthing18:23
DocScrutinizeruser_: we don't need no silly VMware18:23
DocScrutinizerwe got bochs18:23
user_hahaha18:23
RST38huser: google, right?18:24
DocScrutinizerhttp://www.tuug.fi/~toni/serendipity/index.php?/archives/9-Windows-NT-4.0-running-on-N900!.html18:24
user_can you link me to discussion for winCE on N900 please.18:24
javispedropr1.3 thread: someone says "maemo.org repos have fremantle-1.3 section. fremantle-1.3 is coming!!!". someone reminds "fremantle-1.3 is a symlink to 1.2 and was created _by maemo.org_, not nokia". lemmings: <proceed to ignore warning and talk about 1.3 ending world hunger>18:24
user_why am I user?18:24
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user_omg18:24
user_brb need to login18:24
TiagoTiago_lol18:24
user_hhaha18:25
TiagoTiago_just /nick and /nickserv identify18:25
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TermanaLord, please someone kill me before he comes back18:25
RST38hjavispedro: just shows how desperate poor abandoned N900 users are =)18:25
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lolloobaaack18:26
* Termana runs18:26
RST38hTermana: there is /ignore command. I use it a lot.18:26
lolloonow thats better18:26
* DocScrutinizer knew it, knew it really18:26
lolloohahaha18:26
javispedroRST38h: so desesperated someone opened yet another thread about "some ovi maps symbian update not coming to maemo" (like if it wasn't the 999th time)18:26
RST38hjavispedro: well, new ones join tmo weekly, and they all want to have their say, if not ovi maps18:27
lollooI dont get ovi maps! do one really need internet to check his location using gps!18:28
javispedroeither that or 20 minutes waiting for gps lock18:28
RST38hReally useful irc command, that /ignore...18:29
TiagoTiago_doesn't it also keep map tiles in the "cloud", and the route seraching is also  aquired from cloudware?18:29
javispedroTiagoTiago_: neither. it just uses the cloud for POI searches. it routes offline and can keep local map tiles cached (even entire countries)18:30
RST38hstill wants connection every 5 minutes or so18:30
javispedroyep.18:30
lolloojavispedro, your right18:31
lollooit takes long18:31
RST38h20-minute gps lock problem is solvable, albeit in a weird way18:31
RST38hThe solution is to run Nokia's GPS diagnostics utility in the background18:31
lolloowow18:31
lolloohow?18:31
RST38hAnd let that utility initialize GPS and obtain the position. Usually takes no more than 5 minutes when standing still.18:32
javispedroor warm it at home (or anywhere with wi-fi)18:32
lollooRST38h, how do one do it?18:32
RST38hthat too , but it is less flexible and it will screw up again after you lock/unlock the device18:32
javispedrohum18:32
lolloommm18:33
TiagoTiago_i've read someone say GPSjinni also speds things up18:33
javispedroTiagoTiago_: Ovi has a bug where it will shutdown/power up the gps every often18:33
TiagoTiago_s/peds/speeds18:33
TiagoTiago_ah, that sucks18:33
RST38hNot a bug. A feature!18:33
javispedroso any application keeping gps on will "fix it"18:33
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TermanaRST38h, of course, its for.... POWER SAVING THATS IT!18:34
* lolloo is looking for GPSjinni.18:34
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TiagoTiago_i think "jinni" might be a brandname, there is a bunch of progs ending in "jinni"18:35
lolloohahaha18:36
javispedrowhy are the lemmings NOT swarming the council thread?18:36
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RST38hbecause council is inconsequential18:36
RST38hisn't even considered the right keyword18:37
TiagoTiago_or perhaps the word "council" sounds too smart for them?18:37
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TiagoTiago_or perhaps just simply boring18:37
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javispedroclearly not, as they made a 300-page thread when someone thought the council's mission with "getting more features into my device".18:37
TiagoTiago_lol18:38
javispedro*confused.18:38
lollooImagine windows CE with multiboot on N90018:38
RST38hjavispedro: Oh, the keyword there was "features"18:38
RST38hjavispedro: You are just confused by the accidental mention of "council" in that thread18:39
* javispedro sighs18:39
RST38hjavispedro: But yes, the whole maemo.org looks like a hastily abandoned research project now18:39
TiagoTiago_i tend to stay away fromt he council talk 'cause i hardly remember anyone's name much less who said what, and they probably have much deeper things to worry about than whatever i might say18:39
lollooI hate Android18:40
RST38hjavispedro: Windows wide open, paper all over the place, cages broken, hungry white mice running around in anticipation of eventual death of cold and starvation18:40
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TiagoTiago_don't forget headcrabs18:41
javispedroRST38h: read http://blog.jeremiahfoster.com/?p=253 ? :)18:41
RST38hyea, that too, but there are fewer of them now18:41
sobczykhi, is it possible to use usb networking for internet on n900? for now the UI does not reckognize it18:41
TiagoTiago_they died of hunger fromt he lack of heads?18:41
RST38hTiago: Oh, what wonderful headcrabs have we seen before your time!18:41
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javispedrosobczyk: you need libicd-network-usb if you want the proper but possibly a bit hard to install solution, or libicd-network-dummy which is iirc avail on extras and is the "easy half-assed solution".18:42
RST38hTiago: they moved on, headcrabs only attach to individuals with a brain18:42
javispedroah, seems libicd-network-usb is also on -devel now.18:42
TiagoTiago_isn't there instructions for that int he wiki?18:42
RST38hjavispedro:well, jeremiah just confirmed my assessment of the situation :)18:43
javispedroTiagoTiago_: yes, about the -dummy one.18:43
javispedro-usb has support for autoconnection, detection of cable removal, etc. etc.18:43
RST38hjavispedro: I do wonder how things transform once the next device (Harmattan? or proper Meego?) is out18:43
TiagoTiago_what about that pc-connectivity-manager thingy?18:43
RST38hjavispedro: BTW, makes me wonder how people working on Harmattan feel, do they expect their work to migrate to Meego with minimal changes?18:44
javispedroRST38h: I have no idea. Tbh I predicted m.o would die earlier. Seems there's an influx of new users I didn't predict though18:44
lollooWhats up with Meego?18:44
TiagoTiago_the change of name from Maemo really fucked things up, there is like 4 devices in that site, and now they changed the name and it's a matter of "us VS them" :/18:45
javispedroRST38h: ah, about Harmattan.18:45
lollooso many hype about it, why?18:45
javispedroRST38h: since Meego is not exactly any unified kind of project (other than the common Qt baseline API)18:45
javispedroRST38h: "harmattan" will be Meego Handset and that's about it18:45
RST38hjavispedro: on top of debian base?18:45
javispedroRST38h: guess not. there's not much work done on the "debian base" either.18:46
javispedropossibly because someone knows they're going to drop it.18:46
RST38hjavispedro: I remember Nokians saying that Harmattan will still be Maemo, just called Meego for marketing purposes18:46
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TermanaRST38h, that's the rough idea18:47
RST38hjavispedro: Which makes me wonder what the core of the Harmattangoingto be18:47
TermanaRST38h, a hacked up Debian, like Maemo 518:47
Termanadebs etc.18:47
javispedroRST38h: afaik: harmattan = maemo + "meegotouch". meego handset = meego "core" + "meegotouch".18:47
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javispedroso yes they will kill the "distro" parts of maemo but keep the GUI.18:48
RST38hjavispedro: meegotouch is a library layer18:48
keriocan you guys tell me why we're using busybox again?18:48
kerioinstead of, you know, true coreutils18:48
TiagoTiago_space?18:48
Termanakerio, in MeeGo or MeeGo/Harmattan?18:48
kerioin maemo18:48
kerioi hope they didn't keep it on meego18:48
RST38hjavispedro: so, the question is wjether harmattan and meego will share the apps layer18:48
Termanakerio, MeeGo has coreutils18:48
kerioyay18:48
sobczykif I connect n900 as mass storage, the network still works?18:48
Termanakerio, Harmattan will use busybox probably though18:49
keriowhat the fuck18:49
javispedroRST38h: you know the official answer: "Use Qt, Luke."18:49
RST38hjavispedro: which does not answer the question of course :)18:49
MohammadAGsuppose I have a package18:49
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Termanakerio, again, as we are currently discussing, Harmattan is basically Maemo 6 renamed.18:49
MohammadAGand I'm splitting it into two, one for the UI, and one for the modules18:49
RST38hjavispedro: especially considering that there is 1) generic qt 2) meegotouch and 3) symbian qt ui18:49
TermanaThe core is still the same, the UI is changed18:49
MohammadAGthen I make the UI depend on the modules18:49
javispedroRST38h: the official answer is: "you do not need to use meegotouch"18:49
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MohammadAGwill dpkg complain that it's trying to overwrite when I upgrade both?18:50
Termanakerio, therefore, busybox is still likely to be used in Harmattan18:50
javispedroI have to see how much "native" you can get without resorting to meegotouch.18:50
keriothen harmattan will suck balls18:50
RST38hjavispedro: Really? Is it because it is useless or because it does not currently work on Maemo5? =)18:50
keriojavispedro: the point is that you should use qt mobility18:50
kerioand it will automagically work (yeah, right) with every mobile device that uses qt18:50
javispedrokerio: as I once said, midlets reinvented.18:50
lolloo=)18:51
keriothen again, i don't really know what we're talking about18:51
kerioso we might as well talk about bacon18:51
javispedro:)18:51
lolloo:)18:51
* RST38h even ported EMULib to meegotouch before finding out that there are no meegotouch libs for Maemo518:51
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TiagoTiago_port meegotouch to Maemo5?18:51
javispedroit's already there.18:51
javispedroof course, it looks hardly native.18:52
lolloois it? where?18:52
RST38hit has been ported but there is no usable package in the repos18:52
RST38hsome linkage conflicts, I have heard18:52
lolloowow18:52
lollooI would like to check it out18:52
javispedroI have at least run widgetsgallery on fremantle from the repos18:52
lollooanyone?18:52
javispedroso it worked "once upon a time" :)18:53
lolloohahaha18:53
RST38hyea, it works18:53
RST38hthe demo, I mean ;)18:53
TiagoTiago_i want somthing that makes a video game "you've won" TADAH! sound when the battery is full18:54
TermanaTiagoTiago_, a video game will stop the battery becoming full18:54
Termanano TADAH for you18:54
RST38hok, time to go hunt down some dinner18:54
TiagoTiago_lol18:54
MNZTermana, he wants a '18:55
javispedro"Review on OVERCLOCKED n900 AND RISKS of oc "18:55
MNZ'video game you've won tadah'sonud18:55
kerioRST38h: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/dailydish/2009/05/bak47-the-gun-that-will-revolt-and-defeat-terrorists.html18:55
MNZnot a video game18:55
TiagoTiago_lol18:55
lollooHahaha18:55
Termanalol18:55
TermanaTiagoTiago_, learn to use commas :P18:56
TiagoTiago_where would the commas go in that sentence?18:56
Termananevermind :P18:57
TermanaIt's just how i read it :P18:57
lollooYou'll definitely see the N900 as a reference device for the 1.1 release and most likely the 1.2 release. 1.3 is anybody's guess at this stage, since its not planned for/on the roadmap.18:57
TiagoTiago_lol18:58
lolloomeego18:58
MNZI want something that makes a video game's "you've won!" sound effect. <-- not a comma but does the job of diluting the vagueness18:58
lolloohttp://wiki.meego.com/images/Nexus3.jpg18:58
MNZtoo much free time.... must do something productive....18:58
Termanalolcat, please do not copy and paste what I say18:59
Termanadamn it18:59
Termanalolloo, please do not copy and paste what I say18:59
lolloohahaha18:59
javispedroTermana: half the channel is /ignoring him18:59
lolloosorry is it offending?19:00
Termanajavispedro, rightfully so19:00
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* MNZ preps a mint tea.19:01
TiagoTiago_i have not seen a reason for such extreme measures so far19:02
sobczykanyone remembers the name of project for n900 to improve camera image quality by using accelerometer?19:02
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TiagoTiago_i remember the fcam peeps tried using an experimental Nokia bluetooth gyroscope19:03
lolloonokia camera is slow when taking pictures19:03
lolloohow do one solve that issue?19:03
TiagoTiago_somthing about liquid helium i think19:04
lcuktracy and I managed to get great shots of a fire breathing dragon with out n900s19:04
lolloodo you guys recommend better app for camera than the stock one?19:05
sobczykoh yes that one, thx TiagoTiago_19:05
lcukwith our *19:05
JucatoHi, I just quickly glanced at the backlog. What's the official plan for Maemo 6? I mean in relation to MeeGo? I saw "MeeGo/Harmattan" but I'm not sure what that means19:05
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* lcuk used to take crap photos, but now I have learnt to breath and take considered shots19:05
sobczykI tried blessN900 for photos, but you have to have really steady hand or the photos won't look great19:05
sobczyknight photos19:06
lollooyes your right19:06
kerioand your left too19:06
TiagoTiago_lol19:06
lollooneed to smoke first before taking a pic19:06
kerioor you won't be able to keep the n900 steady19:06
lollooanyone got weed19:06
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lolloocalm my nerves19:07
sobczykn900 can use SDIO?19:07
lolloowhats that?19:07
TiagoTiago_people were talking about GPIO here the other day, it's ont he wiki19:07
sobczykplg in devicein SD card port19:07
l0upis it possible to use device speakers and headphone output at the same time, with different audio to both outputs?19:07
sobczykie. accelerometer or gps, though it's there already19:08
TiagoTiago_a gyro or compass would be more usefull with the N90019:08
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sobczykjust made me wonder and makinga google search for SDIO gyro19:09
TiagoTiago_don't forget the slot int he N900 is a microSD, not mini19:10
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TiagoTiago_i dunno fi there are adapters from big to small19:11
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jpinxN900TiagoTiago_: there are - I use one for the micro card in my normal size slot in the eeepc19:12
TiagoTiago_i mean the other way around19:12
sobczykwhy wouldn't a gyro fir in a micro slot?19:13
sobczykfit19:13
lcukTiagoTiago_, umm19:15
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TiagoTiago_i imagine it's more likelly you would find bigger ones19:15
lcukif it cannot fit in the slot19:16
lcukat original size19:16
lcukthen where will it live19:16
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TiagoTiago_it will not be in the slot, the adapter will have a dangling apendage19:17
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TiagoTiago_the appendage that will go in the tight slot19:18
MNZl0up, that's not possible without some considerable kernel hacking19:18
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ieatlintdude, it does not sound like sd cards are being discussed here19:25
TiagoTiago_lol19:26
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jarkkomanyone know if there's any way of disabling flip-to-silence feature on N900?19:28
l0upMNZ: damn, would've  been nice.. thought of coding portable djstudio as a hobbyproject :)19:35
MNZl0up, if you are up for the job really I can look into it and see if it's actually possible19:36
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l0upwould be very nice! i think i could use that feature also on another project im working on (simple stepsequencer/sampler)19:37
JaffaTTOTD: When querying phone tower/cell/LAC info... make sure your N900 has a SIM card in it...19:38
MNZl0up, is this stuff on garage? links?19:38
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lcukjaffa, doesnt the device see towers and cells anyway?19:38
lcukwithout a sim19:39
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lcukie, don't certain countries define still requiring connectivity for emergency services even sans sim19:39
lcukor am I misremembering something19:39
Jaffalcuk: Nope, cos it's a side-effect of being *registered* with a towwr19:39
l0upMNZ: not yet, just started real coding last week.. lots of planning and qt learning done :)19:39
Jaffalcuk: No, you atill need a SIM - just some countries mandate being able to call 1q2 over any network.19:40
JaffaNot the UK tho'19:40
SpeedEvilWhich is stupid.19:40
* SpeedEvil sighs.19:40
MNZl0up, heck I'll gladly take a break from my current blocked state and see what I can do about that :P19:41
TiagoTiago_if the law requried, would it be possible to call emergency numbers even without a sim?19:41
MNZl0up, if you are into this audio stuff, are you familiar with IIR filters and/or parametric EQs ?19:41
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JaffaTiagoTiago_: NAFAIK. You execute code on the SIM and the modem *needs* it19:42
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SpeedEvilyeah - no SIM - at+COPS=?19:43
SpeedEvilERROR19:43
TiagoTiago_oh, I thought the SIM was only about identification stuff and storing numbers and SMSs etc19:43
jarkkomyes you can place a call without SIM19:43
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jarkkomphone will just signal any nearby basestation that it wants to make emergency call, and BS will kick out existing callers if necessary to make room on air19:44
l0upMNZ: cool! lemme know what you can get out of it.. no, not familiar with filters/eqs (atleast not yet), just started reading about what one can do with phonon19:44
SpeedEvilOr it will utterly ignore you in the UK.19:44
l0upMNZ: only familiar w/ eqs and filters as a user :)19:45
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jarkkomSpeedEvil, well at least on GSM it's requirement to allow emergency calls, even though possible keypad lock19:45
MNZl0up, ah.. oh well. And phonon :/19:45
TiagoTiago_can they track you if you start a DOS initiating emergency calls over and over again, never actually completing it, just going far enough for the base station to give you highre priority?19:45
jarkkomTiagoTiago_, yeah they'll know your IMEI at least19:46
jarkkomand it can be blacklisted if it's clearly malfunctioning terminal19:46
jarkkombut there's easier ways to do denial-of-service on base station if that's what someone wants to do19:47
TiagoTiago_i wonder what's gonna happen when people finally break the codes cellphone makers need to keep secret to avoid people messing with the networks and shit hits the fan19:48
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SpeedEvilWell - it's fairly broken now.19:49
jarkkomthere's no big secrets19:49
sobczykwasn't it just gsm?19:49
l0upMNZ: well phonon was fist hit when googling about audio/media related info for qt. got better suggestions?:)19:49
SpeedEvilFor several 10s of K, and a fair bit of programming now, you can do cracking in near realtime of calls.19:49
TiagoTiago_if it's not a secret anymore, why was it necessary for Nokia to waste money walling the cell modem and stuff from us?19:50
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago_: Because it is unlawful in many places to sell 'hacking equipment'19:50
SpeedEvilWhich is what - at least in UK law - the n900 would be once it was abused.19:50
MNZl0up, no, not really. I'm just not a fan :D19:50
SpeedEvilThe retailer is then obliged to fix it, or is liable to jailtime.19:50
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TiagoTiago_what is there to fix when the secret is out?19:51
SpeedEvil3G is more resistant to attacks19:51
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sobczykwouldn't it be easier and plug directly into cables at base station? :)19:52
l0upMNZ: hehe ok:) well i try to manage with that for start19:52
TiagoTiago_since you guys seem to know about this security stuff, lemme ask you somthing, can my GSM account have been cloned if i've kept all my old SIM cards of this account with me? (assuming "bad guys" haven't got physical access to any of my SIM cards)19:53
SpeedEvilAs I understand it - cloning of SIMs is not possible over-the-air.19:53
SpeedEvilWith very old SIMs, you can crack the codes out of them19:54
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johnsqHi19:55
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TiagoTiago_but i've got all the old SIMs (over the time i've asked the carrier to upgrade my SIM, for more memory, or even just to get clean undented contacts, but i still have my old ones), so there is no chance my account has been cloned, unless the people in the store cloned the SIMs under the counter, correct?19:57
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mecehello20:00
SpeedEvilAs I understand, no20:01
MNZl0up, well turning on both headphone and speaker (same output) is already possible with things as they are (though you will _probably_ need a little patch I wrote for speaker protection... long story)20:01
TiagoTiago_can i read the long story somehwere?20:01
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MNZl0up, different outputs though, that will require a considerable change to how the audio codec is used on the N900. Probably not a good idea for everyday use20:02
TiagoTiago_might also help with that idea of using the N900 as a hearing aid20:02
l0upMNZ: thought so:F well maybe i'll just ditch the djstudio project and get my focus on the sampler/sequencer20:03
MNZin brief it would render the headphone unusable for 'normal' playback20:03
MNZl0up, I believe that would be a good idea, yeah20:03
MNZTiagoTiago_, long story has been discussed several times here, not going to recount :P20:04
TiagoTiago_you can't like create virtual soundcards, and redirect the outputs?20:04
l0upthere should be enough work in one project as i havent got the time :P20:04
TiagoTiago_ah, it was only told in chat? :/20:04
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MNZTiagoTiago_, short version: PulseAudio protects speakers by removing bass signals. We can do that in HW instead.20:06
meceis there some sort of general intro to qml somewhere? I seem to be failing on some very basic stuff. Like how can I access something that is a child of something from outside the parent?20:06
TiagoTiago_hm20:06
TiagoTiago_what is wrong with bass?20:06
MNZTiagoTiago_, cheap n900 speakers will die a snappy death when confronted with bass, rumor has it.20:07
TiagoTiago_that sucks :(20:07
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TiagoTiago_why those tiny earphones can handle bass so nicelly but speakers in the N900 can't?20:08
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meceTiagoTiago_, well the speakers have to do it a lot louder.20:09
TiagoTiago_hm20:09
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TiagoTiago_does the N900 at least  does that fake bass with the, i forgot the name now, those fainter lines on top of the main frequency in a spectograph ?20:11
meceit makes sense to strip bass from speakers that can't handle it though. Would make the sound crackle otherwise.20:11
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kerioMNZ: would the audio codec work with hypotetical usb soundcards?20:27
MNZkerio, sorry I don't follow. The audio codec is a chip on board20:29
MNZif you want to plug a USB sound card, then by all means go ahead. It just needs to have support (a driver) under linux20:29
kerioyeah but would it be able to route audio through an external soundcard?20:29
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keriowith minor effort on the cpu part20:29
MNZno it wouldn't. Audio would have to be explicitly sent to the sound card through ALSA20:29
kerio:(20:30
keriooh well20:30
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MNZand besides, you would need host mode first :D20:30
TiagoTiago_what is the name of those fainter lines above the main freuqnecy in a spectograph?20:30
keriowell of course20:30
keriohmm... peak lines?20:31
keriono, wait20:31
keriowhat lines20:31
TiagoTiago_in a spectograph, with a pure sine wave, above the bright line at the frequency of the sound, there are a bunch of fainter lines that follow it20:31
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TiagoTiago_ah, i think that might be it, "harmonics"20:32
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TiagoTiago_there is a trick for faking bass on speakers that don't make bass that low, it involves reinforcing the harmonics of the bass frequencies that the speaker can play, and the brain will imagine there is actually true bass comming from the speakers20:34
TiagoTiago_the harmonics the speaker can play for the bass they can't20:35
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TiagoTiago_it's an auditory illusion20:36
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fralshmm21:23
fralshow long is the election open?21:23
Jaffafrals: Ends Wednesday, 23:59 UTC21:23
fralsJaffa: ty21:23
fralsnot aligned with the swedish election then, typical! ;)21:24
Jaffafrals: One's much more importants ;-)21:24
Jaffafrals: Oh, when I was in Stockholm a couple of weeks ago and saw all the posters, is it the law that they must all take the same format of inconsequential background, portrait shot and a few words?21:24
fralsJaffa: lol21:25
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fralsJaffa: no, they are all just useless :-)21:25
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Jaffafrals: Ah, OK. So much for Swedish design ;-)21:25
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lcukjaffa, how you your youtube video coming on?21:26
fralsJaffa: yeah.. they should probably hire IKEA designers henceforth ;D21:26
Jaffalcuk: It's pushed back until I can get some of the Swedish election organisers on my staff21:26
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lcukheh21:27
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TiagoTiago_i think i'll go sleep now finally, cya21:38
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MNZnight TiagoTiago_21:40
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lcukerrr21:42
lcukmy device is umm not responding21:42
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SpeedEvillcuk: Have you tried CPR?21:43
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lcukSpeedEvil, i tried SMS21:43
lcuki tohught battery had gone21:43
lcukand was looking for cable21:43
lcukthen a sms came in21:43
lcukwhich showed me it was still awake, how odd21:44
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nox-moin22:09
ptlwiki22:10
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ShadSEC2Anyone knows how to export variables from a shell running iinside Screen so that it is accesible from next created screen window? the obvious export is not working for me....22:13
lindi-ShadSEC2: screen -X setenv VAR VAL22:13
lindi-ShadSEC2: export of course only applies to the current shell and its children22:14
ShadSEC2lindi, but the variables get created once main script is already running inside screen22:14
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lindi-ShadSEC2: you can run screen -X inside screen22:14
ShadSEC2and its that same script the one that is launching another script inside a new screen window22:14
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lindi-ShadSEC2: sounds complex. what variable is it?22:15
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ShadSEC2lindi, I see, but do I have to pass all the vars I want to export in the -X when creating the screen?22:15
ShadSEC2that's the problem, there are many vars I want to have accesible22:15
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lindi-ShadSEC2: save them to a file and source that file from the scripts that need them?22:16
ShadSEC2all are variables created during the execution of main script22:16
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ShadSEC2yep, if theres not other way that's what ill have to do, but its soo ugly :(22:17
lindi-ShadSEC2: depends on what variables they are :)22:17
ShadSEC2so I was just wondering if there were some "clean" way22:17
ShadSEC2what do you mean?22:17
lindi-ShadSEC2: I don't know, show me the source and I might be able to suggest a more targeted guess :)22:18
ShadSEC2The source is already more than 40Kb of script :P22:19
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lindi-ShadSEC2: you might be doing it wrong :P22:19
ShadSEC2They are just variables like AP_MAC, AP_ESSID, CLIENT_MAC, etc.... that I want to have exported for plugins to main program that may be able to use those already set variables22:20
ShadSEC2that way, the plugin code runs as if it were part of the main program... well, a plugin....22:21
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ShadSEC2lindi-, yep, theer are already many wrong things in my code :P22:21
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lindi-ShadSEC2: plugins for a shell script?22:22
ShadSEC2yep22:22
MNZThis is new. Interesting.22:22
ShadSEC2perhaps plugin is not the right word.. but intended functionality is that22:23
lindi-ShadSEC2: usually these "plugins" are children of the main program22:23
lindi-so you can just inherit environment variablesa22:23
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ShadSEC2it is a children22:25
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lindi-ShadSEC2: then it should inherit the environment variables automatically22:25
ShadSEC2but for some reason, exported variables from main script are not being accesible in spawned screens22:25
ShadSEC2yep, thats what I thought22:25
lindi-ShadSEC2: are you sure they are children?22:26
lindi-ShadSEC2: look at "ps --forest -eo pid,cmd"22:26
ShadSEC2lemme check22:26
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ShadSEC2lindi-, I am not sure what to look for.....22:35
lindi-ShadSEC2: can you put the output online?22:36
ShadSEC2that would a be a bit complex while the program is running... ill redirect to file and transfer afterwards22:37
ShadSEC2but now I think the child it is not of the main script running22:38
ShadSEC2but a child of screen itself22:38
lindi-ShadSEC2: that's what I guessed too22:38
ShadSEC2screen -t "plugin" xxxxx/plugin <- this is how it is spawned22:39
ShadSEC2even if it is being spawned from the main script it is screen creating it22:39
lindi-yes22:39
ShadSEC2so.... better stop thinking about it, and just export the vars to file and source it from the plugin?22:40
lindi-ShadSEC2: is screen really a dependency of your app?22:40
ShadSEC2absolutely22:40
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ShadSEC2in fact what my app does is managing several process running in different screens22:41
lindi-hmm :)22:41
ShadSEC2well, Ill do the export and sourcing so that I can go on, and Ill have time to rethink it sometime later...22:42
ShadSEC2thanks lindi-22:42
mintuxi have a problem here.sometimes my desktop freeze it means.no shortcuts or widget doesn't click.but task menu works and clickable and i habe to open my softwares from app manager not shortcut from desktop.i have to shutdown my phone and turn it on again and its very boring22:43
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mintuxhow can i restart my desktop and shortcuts or solve my problems?22:43
mintuxwithout reboot phone22:44
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johnxkillall hildon-desktop might work22:45
johnxor it might force a reboot your phone if hildon-desktop can't be restarted quickly enough22:46
mintuxif i kill hildon.my shortcuts doesn't appear22:47
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johnxit can take a bit of time22:47
mintuxi did killall22:49
mintuxi don't have no shortcuts on my desktops and widgets.how to appear them?22:50
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johnxwhen you killall hildon-desktop the system should restart it22:51
johnxif it didn't you probably need to reboot22:51
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mintuxgreat i asked here for not rebooting.there is no way to restart my widgets22:53
johnxI said it might work *shrugs*22:54
johnxit's worked for me plenty of times, but it sounds like something else is wrong if this happens all the time22:54
* lcuk slides down a firemans pole and into the chan22:54
* MNZ starts a fire22:55
mintuxif i clicked on settings icon i can see close icon on the shortcuts but shortcuts doesn't appear22:56
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lcukMNZ, !!!22:57
MNZmintux, try this '/etc/init.d/hildon-desktop start'22:57
lcukI watched ghostbusters last night, best movie I have seen in ages22:57
lcukreally well done with an expansive workup and terric story22:57
lcukwhich movies over 5 years old have you seen recently? :p22:58
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MNZlcuk, Nell22:58
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lcukMNZ, was it good?23:09
MNZlcuk, beyond amazing. Though not everyone's cup of tea I'd imagine.23:10
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xqohello, what is the first meego-phone called?23:13
xqon900s successor?23:13
nox-i think there are only rumours (n9?)23:13
xqooh.23:14
xqoany estimates on when it will be out?23:14
keriolcuk: (not 5 years old) have you watched Kick-Ass?23:14
xqoim considering whether or not to buy the n900, trying to find out if im making a mistake buying old hardware23:14
mgedminxqo, I'm under the impression it comes out some time late this year23:14
xqooh, okay.23:14
kerioold hardware? it's not even 1 year old23:15
mgedminI think it's likely it'll be announced during the MeeGo conference in november23:15
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xqoeven still, it has half the ram of todays phones, only 3g and it is pretty expensive for being so old.23:15
xqobut as far as i can tell, there are no alternatives with the same kind of freedom23:16
xqoor?23:16
pexino23:18
kerioonly 3g?23:18
kerio:o23:18
pexibuy it and try it23:18
kerioit's some really dope shit23:18
kerioit's really worth it23:19
kerioeven though it has some really, REALLY stupid flaws23:19
xqolike what?23:19
pexiit is going to be some kind of technological achievement in the future anyway23:19
keriopulseaudio, the bme, busybox, optification23:19
xqowhats that, kerio23:20
pexiand as a smartphone, you don't really get smart options23:20
johnsu01ughh, n900 won't get past the bright NOKIA screen now, then it just turns itself off23:20
xqoim contemplating whether or not to get the n900, the HTC Desire, or the Samsung Galaxy S.23:20
johnsu01it got a few raindrops on it last night but really very little :/23:20
xqowhat do you think?23:20
kerioxqo: stupid audio system, stupid battery system, stupid shell environment, stupid file hierarchy23:21
kerioxqo: buy the n90023:21
kerioit's worth it23:21
pexiwell I prefer desire more as a phone, but didn't get use to it's touch screen for writing (ircing)23:21
pexiand all the services and applications worked like a charm23:21
pexiweb browsing was flawless23:22
kerioxqo: see, those are phones23:22
keriothe n900 is a tablet23:22
pexibut n900 is still a superb toy23:22
keriothe n900 is *the* toy23:22
wmaroneI think the "tablet" designation got moved up a couple inches ;)23:22
pexiyep :)23:22
xqoim looking for a phone to call and text with, but i want some freedom, that i hear android doesnt really have?23:23
kerioxqo: the day after the one i bought the n900, i was busy changing the X11 keymap files to have more symbols23:23
xqois n900 no good as a phone? assuming the user is a nerd23:23
keriothat's the level of freedom23:23
keriohuh? why would a nerd need a phone to call23:23
kerio;)23:24
xqobut what do you think? n900 as phone or no?23:24
wmaroneit's fine as a phone23:24
pexibtw can you turn off that blinking of screen when someone calls you? :)23:24
pexihard to hit the accept call button :)23:24
kerionerds need a "phone" to surf the web, chat on IRC and watch pr0n23:24
xqowmarone, really? it doesnt sound too bad, but someone mentioned it is kind of clunky because you have to start the gsm-app and stuff before you can call23:24
keriogsm-app? :o23:25
wmaronegsm-app?23:25
kerioare you kidding23:25
wmaroneI hit the phone icon and call :)23:25
kerioxqo: are you a nerd?23:25
kerioif you are, then buy it23:25
kerioyou won't regret ir23:25
kerioit23:25
xqoso if i want a phone i can install whatever i want on, use the debian-repositories, use a terminal, use python, and call/send SMS with, ill get the n900?23:25
kerioyup23:26
nox-yep23:26
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luke-jrxqo: no23:26
kerioluke-jr: huh23:26
nox-only when you multitask `too much' it can get a bit slow bc of swapping :)23:26
luke-jrxqo: you can't install whatever you want on N90023:26
xqoalright, but still, it is kind of old yes? and MeeGo is coming. Will it not be just outdated hardware?23:27
luke-jrxqo: the specs aren't open enough23:27
luke-jrit's already outdated hardware, really23:27
xqoi thought the stack was free, and the schematics were leaked, luke-jr?23:27
luke-jr256 MB RAM is so 200923:27
luke-jrxqo: schematics don't give you enough to write drivers23:27
keriowe have no idea when the n9 will be on the shelves23:27
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wmaronethere's only two system binaries, SGX and BME23:28
xqothis one, kerio? http://img.gfx.no/722/722463/topp.788x554!.jpg23:28
kerioxqo: yeah, the NokBook Pro23:28
kerio:)23:28
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luke-jrwmarone: BME is replaced, practically23:28
wmaronegood, then only one left23:29
Adeonmy cat is more cute23:29
luke-jrbut I don't think SGX stands alone yet23:29
* luke-jr ponders what else23:29
wmaronethe only bits left, IIRC, are firmware23:29
kerioAdeon: does your cat run MeeGo?23:29
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AdeonI think it runs some sort of feline OS23:29
luke-jrwmarone: NOLO23:29
wmaroneyes, nolo23:29
luke-jrthat's not firmware.23:29
Adeonit doesn't have a proper user interface23:29
kerioand of course the thing that runs on rapuyama23:29
kerioyou know, the phone23:30
luke-jrkerio: that's firmware, from the N900 standpoint23:30
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pexii've heard that n9 is coming q1/201123:31
xqothen.. buy n900 or wait?23:31
luke-jrxqo: depends on what you want23:31
luke-jrxqo: and your budget23:31
luke-jrif you can afford to buy another device within a year, get N90023:31
luke-jrcuz I don't expect another device to be remotely competitive with N900 before then23:32
luke-jrif you're happy using Maemo and MeeGo, N900 should also be fine23:32
kerionot to mention the n9 will cost a lot, especially on day123:32
pexibut its just a rumour and no NDA broken23:32
keriopexi: "just a rumor" = COOL STORY, BRO23:33
pexiyep ;)23:33
kerios/rumor/rumour/23:33
infobotkerio meant: pexi: "just a rumour" = COOL STORY, BRO23:33
luke-jrpexi: I heard it was coming out in a week23:33
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johnsu01reflashed and still won't finishing turning on :(23:33
xqowhat about the desire?23:33
MNZI heard it too. It was very loud.23:33
luke-jrmy wife heard it was coming out in 201223:33
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keriojohnsq: you're lying23:33
kerioalso reflash the eMMC too23:33
luke-jrmy 2 year old says we're both wrong, and it's coming out 204323:34
pexixqo, solid smartphone with great user experience, only lacks physical keyboard23:34
johnsu01kerio: did both23:34
xqopexi, but compared to the n900?23:34
luke-jrxqo: N900 isn't a phone. If you want a phone, get something else23:34
pexiand the price was really cheap in here for a while.. like 260e23:34
pexisome operator campaing23:34
luke-jrxqo: you can't compare a phone to a non-phone, unless you mean strictly hardware23:34
kerioxqo: the N900 is a tiny computer that also does some phone calls and sends a couple of SMSes23:34
MNZn900 > n9 by approximately n89023:35
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pexixqo, well, it depends what you want to do23:35
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kerioit's a smartsmartphone23:35
johnsu01while connected to USB power, it just has the grayed-out screen, and does a quick vibration every minute or so23:35
xqobut how well does it work for that? Im buying this because i need something to call/sms with, but also because i want something fun to play with.23:35
johnsu01green light is solid on23:35
xqois it shit to use as a phone?23:36
kerionah, it's fine23:36
pexias we have stated, buy it and try it - u can get cheap used one and sell it if u don't like it :)23:36
luke-jrxqo: if you don't mind waiting 5 seconds before you can answer calls23:36
luke-jrxqo: and don't need MMS23:36
kerioluke-jr: that's a gross overestimation23:36
luke-jrkerio: not at all23:36
kerioalso why can't the guy that's calling you wait for 5 seconds23:36
* johnsu01 has mms and does not wait that long to answer a call23:36
xqowhat do you mean, is it sluggish or something?23:36
luke-jrkerio: by the time my N900 gets the call, he's already waited 4 or 523:36
pexiwhat about the blinking screen? can you hack it?23:37
keriojohnsu01: no you don't, your n900 is FUBAR23:37
luke-jrxqo: very, over time; always, when rotating the screen23:37
johnsu01kerio: yes :(23:37
pexi(sorry, haven't googled it)23:37
luke-jrkerio: err, I mean 4 or 5 rings there :p23:37
* johnsu01 checks the warranty23:37
kerioxqo: the n900 still beats both those phones you mentioned, really23:37
luke-jrxqo: reboot it once a week and it's just the 4-5 second rotation delay23:37
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xqohow big is it by the way?23:39
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luke-jrxqo: too small23:39
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luke-jrvy x by x de Mt23:40
fralsluke-jr: MMS works fine :p23:40
keriofrals: shameless plug eh23:40
frals^^23:40
luke-jrfrals: if "fine" means "not at all"23:40
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fralsluke-jr: WORKSFORME23:40
wmaroneluke-jr lacks any and all tact23:40
* noobmonk3y needs a guniea-pig!! - anyone got their n900 and a headset to hand?23:40
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fralsnoobmonk3y: ye23:41
luke-jrwmarone++23:41
noobmonk3yfrals - can you play something through it and test cat /sys/class/i2c-adapter/i2c-2/2-0060/volume23:41
johnxxqo, my N900 has been working rather well. Other people seem to install background processes and 3rd party widgets and then wonder why things get slow over time23:41
noobmonk3yjust adding healthcheckythings, but got no headset :P hehe23:41
noobmonk3yevening btw frals ;)23:41
noobmonk3ywas singing your praises on the UK vodafone forums last week, and got someones fmms working, hehehe23:42
luke-jrjohnx: so in other words you, to make it work sanely you need to not use it except as a phone? :P23:42
noobmonk3y(Was only there to winge at them about something else!)23:42
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lcukjohnx, recently, vasvlad released the xscreensavers along with the live wallpaper stuff23:42
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lcukhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Xscreensaver23:42
lcukif you see the wiki page23:42
noobmonk3y:P23:42
lcukit includes information about how much cpu each uses23:42
johnxluke-jr, 3rd party *apps* are fine. 3rd party daemons and widgets may or may not come with memory leaks. the N900 will not prevent you from doing something stupid, so use your own brain23:42
pexixqo, if you want python, n900 is your friend23:43
lcukI wonder if we could get this sort of rating onto packages23:43
fralsnoobmonk3y: evenin :)23:43
lcukso that when looking in on downloads23:43
lcukyou could say "show me the lightcpu ones only"23:43
pexithough pys60 is nice too23:43
lcuk"show me the heavyweights"23:43
noobmonk3ylcuk, hmmmm... more of a cpu tally! (Ie, all running at once = high load etc)23:43
lcukDocScrutinizer, you also might know who else23:43
luke-jrjohnx: it's the PR1.2 included apps that leak23:44
noobmonk3yone on its own, even being bad, wont be too evil23:44
lcukSpeedEvil, etc23:44
luke-jrdaemons*23:44
lcukluke-jr, which ones23:44
fralsnoobmonk3y: it seems to increase/decrese with volume23:44
noobmonk3yyayyyyyyyy23:44
johnxluke-jr, the most trouble I've had is with the web browser, and even that only happens on occasion23:44
luke-jrlcuk: I forget. Check the logs for my study.23:44
noobmonk3ycan detect mute too, wohooooo23:44
lcukplease dig out the url and I will have a read23:44
johnxxqo, when are you looking to buy?23:44
noobmonk3ythanks frals :)23:44
luke-jrlcuk: no idea23:44
xqomonday, joelpet23:44
fralsnp :)23:44
lcukhi noobmonk3y btw23:45
xqomonday, johnsq23:45
lcukand frals \o23:45
luke-jrlcuk: I have no usable computer at the moment.23:45
xqomonday, johnx23:45
noobmonk3yhehe, heya lcuk!23:45
fralso/ lcuk23:45
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xqoive almost decided to go for the n900, but i want to know how sluggish it really is?23:45
johnxxqo, Meego world is happening in early November and almost certainly an announcement of some type will be made then. It might not mean a device is going on sale immediately though23:46
xqois luke-jr just being really negative, or does it get slow and sluggish?23:46
noobmonk3yfrals - anyidea on max/min?23:46
luke-jrxqo: "nusance", not "useless"23:46
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noobmonk3yor min i assume is 0?23:46
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johnxxqo, luke-jr is very negative, and also has a bias against Nokia. ask him about it23:46
fralsnoobmonk3y: bah, closed everything.. i *think* i was at max and it said 37 or smth23:46
luke-jrjohnx: what bias?23:46
johnxluke-jr, do you like Nokia?23:46
lcukxqo, yes, you can overload your n90023:46
noobmonk3yxqo, mine is running smoothly :) - allways has, works fine :)23:46
lcukjust like any computer23:46
noobmonk3yty frals23:46
lcukyou are bring it to its knees if you try hard enough23:47
luke-jrjohnx: indifferent, if you exclude all the reasoned dislikes from their products23:47
pexithere are coming interesting other meego phones also23:47
fralspexi: any links?23:47
lcukbut the system is strong, its pretty much 5 years of the best gtk ui and is as close to debian as you will see23:47
pexisorry23:47
pexi:)23:47
pexiwell i hope they can get the package working on time23:48
johnxxqo, I think the answer about whether you will like it really depends on your usage. If you want something you can use everyday as a phone, but you also want to hack on it, there really isn't anything else in its class23:48
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xqothanks, im getting pretty excited about it.23:49
pexibuy and try23:49
johnxxqo, a warning about 'using the debian repositories': you can't use them directly23:50
johnxsome people  have setup a chroot and installed debian that way, but it's not 100% foolproof and the general consensus is that it slows things down noticeably23:51
keriostill, it lets you run openoffice and gimp23:51
johnxright.23:51
johnxalso, the N900 will not prevent you from doing something dumb and making your phone unbootable23:52
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pexihope they don't overprotect the n923:52
noobmonk3yty frals - 3 more things added to healthcheck, on a roll tonight :)23:52
johnx... and I see that as a good thing: preventing you from doing a lot of dumb things may prevent you from doing one very clever thing23:52
keriojohnx: third law of robotics23:52
johnxkerio, heh :D23:53
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noobmonk3ylcuk, ooooo the leds on the n900 have a selfcheck function :)23:54
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noobmonk3yor is that known, and i'm just finding out?!23:54
johnxFull disclosure: I also find alias rm="rm -i" to be annoying, as well as the 'trash can' concept on desktops, and I think we should take the obvious warning labels off everything23:54
johnxback in a min23:55
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dnearyw00t, w00t_: Ping?23:56
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voltshello23:56
nox-oh yeah that rm -i alias is not good (also when ppl get used to it and then end up using a box that doesnt have it...)23:56
MNZrm -rf /23:57
MNZ^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^C^C23:57
dnearyMNZ, Yeah, I feel a bit like that...23:59

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