IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2010-09-17

dotblank	you would loose the ability to measure jerk but I'm trying something basic	00:00
DocScrutinizer	filter out data from noise? that's by definition impossible, except you'd know what data you expect	00:00
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jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: with multiple measurments it's possible	00:00
dotblank	well not really if you have a ceiling on the rate of change	00:00
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: just you got no multiple measurements	00:00
alterego	Well, almost finished my new config management stuff.	00:00
ShadowJK	I remember an early garmin gps unit with monochrome 128x128 pix display and no maps, when it thought you weren't moving anymore, it started averaging GPS positions to refine your position :)	00:00
jacekowski	well, 400Hz	00:01
jacekowski	that should be good enough	00:01
dotblank	400hz is alot	00:01
DocScrutinizer	yes, and every single one has noise and data	00:01
dotblank	you would only need like 50hz accurate	00:01
jacekowski	but noise is random	00:01
timeless_pidgin	ShadowJK: cool	00:01
jacekowski	data is constant in that short time frame	00:01
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kerio	DocScrutinizer: so we'll need an extra set of sensor for the n900 quadricopter to fly through moving hoops? :(	00:01
dotblank	jacekowski, predictably random?	00:02
DocScrutinizer	please read the link, instead of asking me to explain to you once again	00:02
jacekowski	no	00:02
Jaffa	X-Fade: Do you know if there's a web site featuring a JavaScript MediaWiki table editor? I get so bored doing big sets of meeting minutes using just the markup (since it's not very intuitive to my HTML-addled brain)	00:02
jacekowski	just random	00:02
ShadowJK	kerio, yeah you want like 3 or 4 gyros too	00:02
kerio	aw :(	00:02
jacekowski	think ntp	00:02
jacekowski	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marzullo's_algorithm	00:02
kerio	i'm talking about http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geqip_0Vjec of course	00:02
DocScrutinizer	BS	00:02
DocScrutinizer	noise is noise	00:03
ShadowJK	kerio, something like http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=9623	00:03
jacekowski	100 readings of same value	00:03
jacekowski	+- random value	00:03
jacekowski	averaged	00:03
jacekowski	will work out as original value	00:03
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kerio	jacekowski: depending on how big is the +-random value	00:04
dotblank	yea don't know...	00:04
Biroo	hi every body	00:04
Biroo	is there anyone can help me plz??	00:04
ShadowJK	kerio, so basically when he threw the quadcopter it was in free fell more or less, accelerometers reading 0,0,0.. it needs the gyros to know what direction it's pointing in	00:04
timeless_pidgin	Doc: what's my next number? :)	00:05
dotblank	ShadowJK, yea I can see that being a problem	00:05
DocScrutinizer	err, 24?	00:05
DocScrutinizer	dunno, timeless_pidgin	00:05
* timeless_pidgin kicks pidgin for having huge fonts and tiny smilies		00:05
hardaker	Biroo: we won't know till ya explain the problem :-)	00:05
dotblank	ShadowJK, I guess if you remembered all the rotations on the object before you through it and during flight untill freefall you could do it but this is pushing the accuracy way way too far	00:06
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timeless_pidgin	24. Calendars should properly encode all day events so that when you travel two hours west your "christmas eve day event" doesn't start on December 23rd at 10pm ...	00:06
dotblank	threw*	00:06
Biroo	I have a big problem with my Nokia N900	00:06
Shapeshifter	Biroo: oh noes	00:06
th3hate	Biroo, ask already	00:07
timeless_pidgin	Biroo: but your n900 is small, how can you have a big problem?	00:07
ShadowJK	dotblank: besides, if your axis of rotation goes through the accelerometer it's not going to notice anything	00:07
hardaker	big things come in small packages :-)	00:07
Biroo	I switch it off	00:07
Shapeshifter	and the screen goes black?	00:07
Biroo	and try to switch it on ... nothing happened	00:07
Shapeshifter	D:	00:07
dotblank	ShadowJK, ok good point .. don't through in a such a way....	00:08
dotblank	lol	00:08
Biroo	I try to do flasher for it... nothing happend	00:08
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timeless_pidgin	Biroo: take out the battery	00:08
timeless_pidgin	Plug the n900 into a wall charger.	00:08
Biroo	ok	00:08
hardaker	Biroo: you can't flash unless you at least can get it to boot at all. Also, remember you have to hold in the power button for 2-3 seconds before it starts booting.	00:08
Biroo	done	00:08
timeless_pidgin	Plug the wall charger into a live outlet	00:08
DocScrutinizer	insert battery again :-P	00:08
jacekowski	yeah, i've just tried it	00:08
hardaker	(but remove the battery is good)	00:08
timeless_pidgin	Put the battery back in	00:09
timeless_pidgin	Wait.	00:09
timeless_pidgin	Do you see a small light in the corner of the n900?	00:09
Shapeshifter	I see the light, closing in on me D:	00:09
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Biroo	no	00:09
tripzero	dont go to the light!	00:09
Biroo	nothing	00:10
Shapeshifter	too late!	00:10
ShadowJK	dotblank, so like theoretically if accelerometer was 100% accurate the dual accelerometer setup like in freerunner, you could see less acc on one meter and more on the other as a sign of rotation	00:10
timeless_pidgin	Ideally the screen should flash a bit and then the light should glow in some pattern...	00:10
jacekowski	assuming that noise is 10% of value	00:10
dotblank	ShadowJK, yea also note there will be centrifugal force	00:10
jacekowski	you would need 10 samples to get it under 2%	00:10
th3hate	Biroo, are you sure the micro usb port isn't broken?	00:10
Biroo	the Nokia word just shown with no light and a small vibration	00:11
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timeless_pidgin	Biroo: that means the usb connection works.	00:11
Biroo	yes I already charge it	00:11
DocScrutinizer	Biroo: so what's the problem. Device booting to Nolo just fine	00:11
jacekowski	20 samples get it down to ~1.3%	00:11
th3hate	Biroo, did it enter a reboot loop?	00:11
timeless_pidgin	Biroo: wait a bit, press and hold the power key...	00:11
jacekowski	so it's possible to do that stuff with accelerometer	00:12
ShadowJK	oh and also: screw quadcopters, you want single rotors for maximum potential carnage: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxLGiHF17uU (this is a human pilot)	00:12
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Biroo	yes	00:12
Biroo	a reboot loop	00:12
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: this only applies for constant input value during tha sampling window	00:12
dotblank	jacekowski, well proving the increased polling rate actually have the device giving new values.. not repeated ones	00:12
th3hate	Biroo, have you tried to flash it with maemo flasher?	00:12
Biroo	yes	00:12
timeless_pidgin	Biroo: removing the battery clears the act-dead bit	00:12
dotblank	providing*	00:12
Biroo	and there is the problem	00:12
timeless_pidgin	It should be possible for you to try to flash it now...	00:12
jacekowski	assuming that noise is 100% of value	00:12
jacekowski	10 samples get it down to 3%	00:13
th3hate	Biroo, what happens when you try to flash it?	00:13
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: with 400Hz you can assume that it's constantish	00:13
th3hate	you get "waiting for a suitable device"?	00:13
* Shapeshifter loves devices where you stick some pointy object into a hole and it's like brand new from the factory :D		00:13
DocScrutinizer	bah	00:13
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: and reject any values that are too far away from expected value	00:13
DocScrutinizer	omg	00:13
dotblank	jacekowski, yea power limit it..	00:13
Biroo	the problem here that when I connect it with the USB during the flasher... The Usb shape in the corner of the screen doesn't shown	00:14
jacekowski	and assume that it has changed too much to sample it	00:14
Biroo	and the flasher stop at ... waiting for a suitable devic	00:14
th3hate	Biroo, did you hold the U button while plugging it?	00:14
timeless_pidgin	Biroo: did you try holding 'u' when you turned it on?	00:14
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Biroo	sure	00:14
lcuk	Shapeshifter, a mans reason for living is to stick some pointy object into a hole and create something brand new from the factory	00:14
Biroo	but nothing happened	00:15
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jacekowski	Biroo: try it on linux	00:15
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: if it were that simple, don't you think we'd see better dead reconing on all tomtom and garmin navis?	00:15
jacekowski	Biroo: check if windows sees device	00:15
Biroo	and I try to flash it with Linux system .. and also the same problem	00:15
crashanddie	Biroo: do you have admin rights?	00:15
Biroo	yes	00:15
crashanddie	PEBKAC	00:15
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Shapeshifter	lcuk: heh.	00:15
MNZ	++ on the PEBKAC	00:16
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: my tomtom doesn't have accelerometer	00:16
* ShadowJK blames not-full battery		00:16
th3hate	Biroo, you tried to flash it on a 32Bit linux distro?	00:16
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: guess why	00:16
Biroo	yes 32 bit	00:16
jacekowski	well, it's a GPS	00:16
alterego	Almost ready to merge in my new generic config management stuff into my gps app :)	00:16
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jacekowski	it doesn't need anything else for 99.9% of time	00:16
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DocScrutinizer	BS	00:16
jacekowski	i don't go trough tunnels very often	00:16
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th3hate	Biroo, so basically nothing happens when you plug in the usb holding U ?	00:16
jacekowski	and i never saw a junction in a tunnel	00:17
crashanddie	jacekowski: the accelerometer is used in turns as well, AFAIK	00:17
Biroo	nothing.. just a reboot loop with no lights and a small vibration	00:17
crashanddie	dead battery	00:17
crashanddie	allow the battery to charge	00:17
th3hate	uhh.. bricked device?	00:17
dotblank	I feel like a polling rate at 400 hz with filters to remove noise could give a fairly accurate reading	00:17
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ShadowJK	I don't think it gets a net charge whilst reboot-looping :P	00:18
crashanddie	not on the computer, but on the power socket it ought to	00:18
ShadowJK	jacekowski, see this is why I'm not convinced press u halts nolo if battery is low :-)	00:18
jacekowski	well, hmm	00:19
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hardaker	If the battery is totally dead I've certainly seen it not be willing to boot until plugged in for a while.	00:19
jacekowski	there is workaround for nolo	00:19
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: you're boring me - come up with a POC simply integrating (and possibly filtering sophistacatedly) the g-meter data, and I'll show you it thinks it's standing still while actually I never stoped moving after I shaked it arounf for 10s	00:19
dotblank	DocScrutinizer, :( but shaking it invokes jerk... I want to start basic and do simple acceleration	00:19
ShadowJK	hardaker, this is not the issue now	00:20
dotblank	DocScrutinizer, not very applicable	00:20
hardaker	ShadowJK: gotcha.	00:20
dotblank	DocScrutinizer, but I'd think it would be cool regardless	00:20
ShadowJK	hardaker, it's booting. It just boots into dead OS, and reboots	00:20
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: when you want to measure distance, you won't go around shaking the device	00:20
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dotblank	Shapeshifter, well if your in a car it will shake	00:21
DocScrutinizer	dotblank: you've read that pretty comprehensive article I liked you to?	00:21
dotblank	very much so	00:21
dotblank	DocScrutinizer, yes I did	00:21
Shapeshifter	dotblank: in your car you'll be using GPS. I thought you wanted it for indoor use	00:21
alterego	Heh	00:22
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dotblank	Shapeshifter, yea.. I guess.. it could only amount to a fancy toy that would work only in a very specific physical system	00:22
Shapeshifter	dotblank: yeah. like GPSD	00:22
Shapeshifter	GPS	00:22
Shapeshifter	still very useful.	00:23
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dotblank	"For interactive use. High-pass filtering the accelerometer with a bandwidth of 10Hz - you can't filter it much more than that or you lose important 'wobbles'"	00:24
dotblank	at 10hz	00:24
dotblank	yea I can see it not being very good	00:24
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DocScrutinizer	Errors build up, but it's not bad for short periods, 1cm/s^2 of error, with a car going in a straight line at 20m/s, takes a bit over a minute to move from a true direction of northeast - say, to a false direction of northnortheast. (the position is off after this period by a hundred metres or two)	00:30
DocScrutinizer	this scales nicely	00:30
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alterego	The particle effect when destroying a window from the dashboard, that's in hildon-desktop right?	00:31
DocScrutinizer	if you're moving with 2m/s your pos is off by at least 20m after 1 min	00:31
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alterego	I was thinking, I'd quite like to replace that with a poof of smoke :)	00:31
crashanddie	puff	00:32
DocScrutinizer	but even if you're not moving at all, your pos will drift	00:32
alterego	No, a poof :P	00:32
crashanddie	"a poof of smoke" <-- is that a new way of saying "fag"?	00:32
alterego	Heh	00:32
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crashanddie	"Greek police charged two U.S. tourists with desecrating the dead on Thursday after they found six human skulls in their hand luggage at Athens international airport, a police official said."	00:33
* crashanddie classifies that as "WTF were they thinking?"		00:34
DocScrutinizer	dotblank: and all that numbers in that article are based on a g-meter 20 times better than the one we got in N900	00:34
mece	souvenirs	00:34
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ioan	is there a trial version of sygic 10 for USA?	00:35
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mece	alterego, columbus looks really nice. The "options" button does nothing. It's supposed to be like that currently, right?	00:36
kerio	crashanddie: it reminds me of that 4chan thread	00:36
alterego	mece: not currently no, on my versions the options button has all sorts of nice options ;)	00:36
kerio	the guy with the skull	00:36
alterego	mece: I'll upload it hopefully tomorrow	00:36
alterego	I've just finished what I wanted to finish before my release into -devel	00:37
mece	sweet.	00:37
alterego	mece: that executable only has the one display I believe, and I only uploaded it to help a couple of us reverse engineer the binary GPS protocol	00:38
mece	yep, just the one display. Still useful :D	00:38
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alterego	In my version both the compasses have a nice smooth scrolling action too ;)	00:39
crashanddie	"Love consists in overestimating the differences between one woman and another."	00:39
mece	:D	00:39
mece	nice to see some much needed smoothness on maemo.	00:40
mece	crashanddie, how poetic.	00:40
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alterego	mece: it was a bit of an unecessary modification but: http://pastie.org/1163759	00:43
alterego	I just wanted to make my configuration system easier.	00:43
alterego	To program, and my application is based around a plugin system, and each plugin needs to register configuration options when they initialize.	00:43
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mece	alterego, hey that's pretty nifty.	00:44
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alterego	It's quite neat I thought, you have a ConfigManager, which you describe your apps configuration model to, then you create my special "OptionsDialog" which talks to the configuration manager to display a nice options dialog.	00:45
alterego	I guess it's kind of semantic in some ways	00:45
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mece	I wish I was good at c++. I just don't have time with the nitpicking these days, and I don't have the skills to get it right on the first try :/	00:46
alterego	Well, I say it was unecessary, but in reality my config stuff was all over the place and was quickly becoming unmanagable.	00:47
alterego	Well, I'm not even sure I'm that good at C++ tbh :)	00:47
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alterego	And I wouldn't worry about getting it right the first time.	00:47
mece	lucky for me there's python, qtquick and other lazyman's methods.	00:47
alterego	Or the second, third, forth, maybe even never ;)	00:47
mece	haha	00:47
alterego	It's best to be agile and pragmatic in my opinion, though having a rough design is always a good idea.	00:48
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mece	ahemm.. que? WeTab can run android apps?	00:49
alterego	mece: source?	00:50
mece	http://www.androidpolice.com/2010/09/16/wepad-will-run-meego-os-android-apps/	00:50
mece	that's a bold claim, I must say.	00:50
mece	then again why not.	00:50
alterego	Neat	00:51
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dotblank	my hopes have been dashed... by DocScrutinizer :(	01:03
dotblank	I'll have to go back to figuring out lcuk's videos	01:05
lcuk	hmm	01:06
lcuk	dotblank, which bit cant you figure out	01:06
DocScrutinizer51	dotblank: I'd think you got better chances to measure distances by using some acousic radar principle	01:07
alterego	Hah	01:08
Shapeshifter	or laz0rs	01:08
Shapeshifter	and the camera	01:08
DocScrutinizer51	yeah but N900 has no laz0rs	01:08
alterego	Let me guess, another dumfounded enquirer into the reverse AR ?	01:08
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer51: well of course you need the n900 in one place and the light in some other place. Imagine a replacement stylus that is a laz0r	01:09
Shapeshifter	woot	01:10
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Shapeshifter	the n900 needs lasers.	01:10
alterego	Heh, that would have to me a large stylus to fit the energy source :P	01:10
Shapeshifter	why didn't I think of it earlier	01:10
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Shapeshifter	alterego: maybe stack a couple of these? http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/2003/news030919.htm	01:13
Shapeshifter	well it would be a long way until the N900 death star...	01:14
lcuk	alterego, a youtuber sussed it!	01:14
alterego	:)	01:15
alterego	Noice	01:15
lcuk	so I posted saying where to download it from to try themselves	01:15
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alterego	Wow, didn't realize Nintendo were so ungreen	01:42
alterego	I guess it's because they're in china	01:43
Jaffa	Meeting minutes from earlier: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-community/2010-September/004494.html	01:46
* Jaffa beds		01:46
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kwtm	Hi. Is there a reason "less" (the enhanced version of cmd-line util "more") is "extras-devel" rather than "extras-testing" or even "extras"? Is it something technical like "the author should be respond to email quickly" or should I be wary of installing it on my N900?	01:55
MNZ	kwtm, just how much of a danger do you think less can be?	01:56
alterego	Heh	01:56
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kwtm	I don't know, but on the other hand I didn't realize that busybox could crash my N900 and make me have to return it to the store.	01:56
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alterego	unfortunately extras isn't exactly the repository it should be.	01:56
kwtm	I think the question is, how much of a danger do people think "less" can be that they didn't vote it up to extras-testing?	01:57
alterego	It was probably never promoted	01:57
MNZ	busybox 'crashed' your N900?? Can you tell us more?	01:57
kwtm	MNZ: I would love to, but first here's a riddle:	01:57
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wmarone	kwtm: perhaps because very few people use "less" and even fewer people go and upvote it in the Garage	01:58
kwtm	What software, present on the N900 by default, will be affected by a one-line text file (not present on the N900 by default), so that in the presence of this text file, the N900 cannot boot up properly and must be reflashed?	01:58
kwtm	wmarone: Interesting. If that's the reason, then that's fine. I thought everyone would be using "less" so I wanted to make sure it had no problems.	01:59
kwtm	wmarone: I guess I'm addicted enough to the command-line interface that I really don't want to use "more" more than I have to.	01:59
MNZ	kwtm, I've heard of this.... but darn if I can remember	01:59
kwtm	MNZ: The answer is: "ash" (aka busybox).	01:59
MNZ	oh... ohhhhh XD	01:59
alterego	ashis a symlink to the busybox executable.	02:00
wmarone	kwtm: I suspect a large percentage of the N900 user base actually doesn't use the command line	02:00
kwtm	MNZ: The one-line text file is ~/.profile; if it references a non-existent file, then the startup scripts cause an error that is unrecoverable.	02:00
alterego	tbh, you could get rid of one of a 100 files and the N900 would not boot.	02:00
kwtm	alterego: Correct, but to add your own one-line text file and make it not boot? This one-liner is in your home directory, I should add --not any system directory.	02:00
kwtm	Okay, so if no one knows of any problems with "less" I'll just go ahead and use it.	02:01
alterego	Yeah, when I heard about .profile killing N900's I felt a little scared.	02:01
kwtm	Always a pleasure to ask for help from those with more expertise and experience.	02:01
MNZ	zzziiiiinnnggg	02:01
* MNZ is hurt :'(		02:01
alterego	Hrm, I'm actually feeling kind of hungry.	02:02
kwtm	alterego: I suspect there's some script that says "If ash returns a non-zero exit value, trigger the error-correcting script! ... which runs on, er, ash. Yeah."	02:02
alterego	I might make some eggs	02:02
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alterego	Yeah, I'm gonna have a fried egg sammich	02:02
alterego	bbiam	02:02
kwtm	While I'm here, anyone have problems with Gnumeric on N900 (in extras-devel)? If no, I'll install that, too.	02:02
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asj	I would guess the UI hasn't been ported...	02:06
kwtm	wmarone: I guess. I use the N900 as a "smartphone" a lot and use the GUI that way, but I also have 3 X-Terms open with two instances of vim going. Hmm...	02:08
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joga	I mostly have terminal and browser windows open	02:09
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alterego	kwtm: hiow do you mean "like a smartphone" ? You mean you use it to make calls?	02:10
alterego	What makes a smartphone a smartphone anyway?	02:10
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joga	it's something you don't call dumb all the time :)	02:10
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alterego	Urgh, I really don't like that "I can't believe it's not butter" crap.	02:12
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SpeedEvil	dotblank: on accel - search openmoko wiki "accelerometer fundamentals"	02:22
dotblank	SpeedEvil, I think DocScrutinizer put enough doubt in it for me to try anything	02:24
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SpeedEvil	k	02:26
SpeedEvil	My connection fell over.	02:26
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mece	how the hell do I debug javascript stuff that I use for qml??	02:32
alterego	If you run qmlviewer from the console, you have debug output.	02:33
alterego	If you run it from the application menu, you can access the debug log from the menu.	02:33
mece	alterego, how do I print something from the javascript file to console? I'm running it from qtcreator	02:33
alterego	Let me check.	02:34
mece	print. Who knew?	02:34
mece	lol.	02:34
mece	I had my test print behind an "if" that never succeeded	02:34
* mece bonks himself		02:34
alterego	Oh yeah, that was it :)	02:35
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alterego	I noticed something mighty annoying about QML actually,	02:44
alterego	with an opengl backend you're limited to the size of an "imaage" element.	02:45
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alterego	I suppose I should sumbit a bug report or something.	02:45
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MohammadAG51	or use a larger image :P	02:46
alterego	Erm, you mean smaller.	02:46
alterego	It's a large image that screws up, because there's not enough memory for the texture in opengles.	02:46
alterego	At least that's my guess ;)	02:46
mece	hmm	02:47
MohammadAG51	then file a bug	02:47
mece	alterego, hmm.. how do I do a for loop?	02:47
alterego	for( = 0; i < 10; i ++) {}	02:48
alterego	urgh, well, you know, the normal way :P	02:48
mece	ok	02:48
mece	hm	02:48
alterego	Are you trying to programatically generate qml elements from javascript?	02:49
mece	no.	02:49
mece	I'm trying to do a for loop in qml	02:49
mece	alterego, but that would be the alternative	02:49
alterego	Oh, well, it's declarative, you can't really.	02:49
alterego	What does the loop do? Well, what is it supposed to do?	02:50
mece	alterego, display a couple of hundred png's	02:50
alterego	Right, so you are trying to generate qml elements programatically then ;)	02:51
alterego	mece: this might help: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.7-snapshot/qml-advtutorial.html	02:52
mece	alterego, ah yesh. thanks.	02:53
alterego	mece: and this: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.7-snapshot/qdeclarativedynamicobjects.html	02:53
mece	alterego, yeah. That's exactly what I needed. Thanks!	02:55
alterego	No problem :)	02:57
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alterego	I've browsed through all the QML documentation so even though I don't know everything off-by-heart, I have a good idea where stuff is ;)	02:57
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* peb_ is gone. Gone since Tue Sep 7 15:18:00 2010		04:03
pigeon	on the n900, is there some way i can configure a script or a program to run when it (or X) starts up, as a user? (like, not /etc/init.d/ or /etc/event.d/)	04:05
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asj	pigeon: what's wrong with init.d? you can use the alarmd	04:18
pigeon	nothing, i thought if there's a non-root way then i'll do that.	04:18
asj	alarmd then	04:18
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SpeedEvil	pigeon: There is a stupid hack.	04:25
SpeedEvil	pigeon: Install queen-beecon	04:25
SpeedEvil	pigeon: Set one to run on start	04:25
pigeon	heh	04:26
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GNUtoo\|laptop	hi,	05:11
GNUtoo\|laptop	how can I remove multiboot	05:11
GNUtoo\|laptop	I'd like to kexec instead	05:11
GNUtoo\|laptop	with kernel-power	05:11
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GNUtoo\|laptop	ok I think multiboot is gone, I don't know how I did it tough	05:27
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GNUtoo\|laptop	ah no	05:29
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GNUtoo\|laptop	ah it seem that kernel-power is booting now	05:30
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luke-jr	so how can I get my N900 to share its GPS? :p	05:49
luke-jr	over BT	05:49
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SpeedEvil	Yes.	05:54
SpeedEvil	IIRC	05:54
SpeedEvil	actually	05:54
SpeedEvil	you'd need a NMEA source	05:54
SpeedEvil	hmm	05:54
SpeedEvil	then to configure a rfcomm	05:55
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GNUtoo\|laptop	n900 doesn't have NMEA right?	06:04
pronto	correct, the n900 does not have cookies	06:04
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SpeedEvil	GNUtoo\|laptop: not natively - there are some people doing it though	06:08
GNUtoo\|laptop	ok	06:08
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ShadSEC	hey	06:54
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Macer	hm. new nitdroid	06:57
Macer	wonder if the modem support is in it	06:57
luke-jr	I would presume so	06:59
luke-jr	maybe even my GPS code	06:59
Macer	wow	07:00
Macer	that would be neet. working modem with voice calling or data only?	07:00
Macer	i know they were having problems with the modem's audio	07:00
luke-jr	no idea	07:00
luke-jr	voice calling to me means SIP	07:00
Macer	HAHA... fair point	07:00
Macer	well i hardly ever use actual cell phone calling but you never know	07:00
Macer	i'm installing it now so i guess i'll see in a minute	07:01
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Macer	new splash too huh? neet	07:06
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Macer	hm. i have a signal bar at the top :) but no 3G symbol	07:07
Macer	hm. it's running on edge	07:08
Macer	doesn't seem to be working tho	07:10
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luke-jr	Macer: probably your fault	07:15
luke-jr	btw my desktop monitor is dead :(	07:15
luke-jr	so I have to use this lame mac	07:15
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Macer	crap	07:41
Macer	can't seem to get the APNs to work	07:41
DocScrutinizer51	jacekowski: ???: sorry, have to say NOLO on 'U' definitely does NOT load or consume any energy from USB, on a relatively full battery. So it actually DIScharges	07:41
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Macer	i try adding one and setting hte tmob info but after trying to save it .. it just sort of disappears	07:41
Macer	eiting the mnc seems to break it	07:44
DocScrutinizer51	jacekowski: au contraire I guess holding device in 'u' is a way to get beyond sane discharge limit	07:44
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slonopotamus	is apt-cache search just broken?	07:47
slonopotamus	http://codepad.org/0NiXivxu i can only understand two of matches (openntpd and python-twisted-news [because it has nntp in description])	07:50
slonopotamus	s/ of //	07:50
infobot	slonopotamus meant: http://codepad.org/0NiXivxu i can only understand twomatches (openntpd and python-twisted-news [because it has nntp in description])	07:50
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DocScrutinizer	slonopotamus: it seems to match weird things as well, maybe install scripts or dunno what	08:00
slonopotamus	DocScrutinizer: from user POV it's broken.	08:01
DocScrutinizer51	file a ticket upstream	08:03
DocScrutinizer51	I had similar thing one time	08:03
slonopotamus	DocScrutinizer51: already talking to them. i hoped i'm doing smth wrong :)	08:04
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X-Fade	Morning	08:59
kwtm	morning, Crossfade.	09:00
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`Francesca_Lucch	hey guys is there an mp3 tagger for n900	09:07
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Corsac	yes	09:08
Corsac	`Francesca_Lucch: MussOrgSky	09:09
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DocScrutinizer	morning	09:36
DocScrutinizer	aiui council elections are open since yesterday?	09:37
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merlin1991	morning Doc	09:38
DocScrutinizer	mo merlin1991	09:38
DocScrutinizer	I'd like to know how many days after elections are opened (even closed?) it's supposed the tokens/balots are sent to the last member who would have been allowed to vote	09:40
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merlin1991	hm I have 3 karma on maemo.org from activity in "groups" wtf? I don't remember doing anything :D	09:44
DocScrutinizer	from a mail I kindly got a forward: >>Voting will run from September 16th 00:00 UTC until September 22 2010, 23:59 UTC.<< Mail sent to original addressee: 2010-09-16 10:14 - me missing any mail, and my calendar showing me it's 17th of September	09:44
DocScrutinizer	X-Fade: ^^^ ?	09:46
X-Fade	DocScrutinizer: Your words don't make sense, please rephrase?	09:46
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DocScrutinizer	elections opened since yesterday, some others got mail with token after(!) elections opened, I'm still missing token to vote. How's this gong to be sorted?	09:48
toggles_w	DocScrutinizer: I'll sell you mine	09:48
X-Fade	DocScrutinizer: Do you have enough karma?	09:48
DocScrutinizer	I'd guess 364 is enough?	09:48
X-Fade	Yes, it should.	09:49
X-Fade	Everybody got mailed yesterday.	09:49
X-Fade	So if you didn't get yours, you should ping dneary.	09:49
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DocScrutinizer	isn't that odd to send out tokens after election is opened?	09:50
X-Fade	He can look up your token or resend it.	09:50
X-Fade	DocScrutinizer: Details. What is a few hours on a week.	09:50
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DocScrutinizer	as you see in my case, there's good reason to send such mails out with good advance in time, so all possible issues can get sorted until election period STARTS	09:51
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DocScrutinizer	a lot of community members might not even have noticed about council elections, and now have to start considering what's all that about and what they're going to do	09:52
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DocScrutinizer	hell not even I knew about elections opened yesterday, until this morning some guy asked me what's this mail he got is all about and what he shall do now	09:56
DocScrutinizer	I'd honestly suggest to postpone closing of elections by one week	09:57
DocScrutinizer	and make damn sure those mails really got out and delivered	09:58
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DocScrutinizer	all of them	09:59
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DocScrutinizer	after running the mail template thru several spam filters to make sure it won't trigger	10:01
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DocScrutinizer	also making sure it's not a fsckdup Nokia "from:" addr which is known to make postmasters moan and swear and trigger greylisting or sth, due to borked header details (don't ask me for details, as I am no postmaster and you don't want me to quote the swearword my postmaster uttered when I asked him why Nokia mail never gets thru)	10:04
Shadikka	I might actually be interested to hear the words, just out of... academic interest.	10:05
DocScrutinizer	(and no, this can't be the reason my mail is missing, Nokia is on the whitelist now)	10:05
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Stskeeps	maemo.org mail != nokia infra, we don't run exchange	10:05
Stskeeps	:P	10:05
johnx	postmasters filter on 'from:' at their own peril	10:05
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johnx	also: mail is totally *&#$ed up as a protocol in general	10:06
DocScrutinizer	it's not from, it's some reverse DNS lookup that failed	10:06
DocScrutinizer	iirc	10:06
johnx	but a reverse lookup fail of the domain in the 'from:'? or a reverse lookup fail in one of the hosts that sent it?	10:07
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DocScrutinizer	I'm not a postmaster, and I didn't ask for all the gory details	10:08
DocScrutinizer	and for the records: my postmaster started with "FUCK! those bloody idiots..."	10:09
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mece	hello	10:11
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lolloo	I have comic widget ver 0.4	10:17
lolloo	but it doesnt how me the latest strip	10:18
lolloo	it shows me the start of 2010	10:18
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lolloo	how can I fix that?	10:18
crashanddie	comic widget?	10:18
crashanddie	it shows you the latest jokes from Eddie Murphy?	10:19
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DocScrutinizer51	balmer rap as comic strip :-P	10:20
lolloo	dilbert strip	10:20
lolloo	but doesn't take me to latest	10:21
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lolloo	why?	10:21
DocScrutinizer51	developersdevelopersdevelopersdevelopersdevelopersdevelopersdevelopersdevelopersdevelopers	10:21
lolloo	why comic widget doest show me latest one?	10:22
lolloo	it shows me 1 year old strips	10:22
DocScrutinizer51	lolloo: we all heard you	10:22
* merlin1991 wants an xkcd widget :)		10:22
Scelt	including title	10:23
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lolloo	I love comic strips	10:27
lolloo	I love comic widget for n900	10:27
lolloo	comic widget... mmm	10:27
lolloo	why doesn't it show me last strip by date	10:27
lolloo	mmm maybe something missing	10:27
lolloo	comic strip widget is awesome	10:28
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lolloo	all comics imcluded	10:28
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lolloo	mmm am looking at dilbert comic strips	10:28
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lolloo	using comic widget on my n900	10:28
lolloo	why wouldn't it show me latest dilbert comic strip?	10:29
lolloo	mmm I wounder why it wouldn't show me last strip	10:29
lolloo	of dilbert...	10:29
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FIQ\|n900	interesting... uhm.. song?	10:29
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lolloo	comic strip	10:31
lolloo	dilbert comic strip is awesome	10:31
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FIQ\|n900	k	10:32
lolloo	I am looking at it using comic widget	10:32
lolloo	on my N900	10:32
lolloo	including other comics	10:32
FIQ\|n900	i'm pretty sure you said that before	10:32
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lolloo	like pc and pixel comic strip	10:32
lolloo	and many others	10:32
lolloo	it uploads automatically from site	10:33
lolloo	and bring it to your fone	10:33
lolloo	on desktop	10:33
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FIQ\|n900	right	10:33
lolloo	there is a griffiti comic strip too	10:34
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lolloo	it awesome	10:34
lolloo	check it out	10:34
lolloo	funny as hell	10:34
FIQ\|n900	cba	10:34
* FIQ\|n900 afk		10:34
* lolloo is having fun.		10:34
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lolloo	whats the best themme for my N900?	10:44
merlin1991	the one you personally like?	10:44
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lolloo	yes sir	10:44
lolloo	any recommendation?	10:44
psycho_oreos	theme = tastes	10:44
lolloo	I want a theme that changes the all icons	10:45
merlin1991	psycho_oreos, I kinda tried to say that :D	10:45
lolloo	and even motions in menu	10:45
lolloo	whatever give me your recommendation please	10:45
lolloo	give give	10:46
T-Co	merlin1991, I have Okuda, which I bet, will share opinions :)	10:46
psycho_oreos	merlin1991, hehe, too bad I beat you to the buzzer :)	10:46
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lolloo	I have D-theme smooth blue	10:46
Jaffa	Morning, all	10:47
lolloo	but it doesnt convert everything	10:47
T-Co	Sorry, I meant lolloo ^^^	10:47
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oracle	maemo is a nokia right?	10:47
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merlin1991	:)	10:47
oracle	what about the booklet	10:47
oracle	who has a booklet	10:47
T-Co	lolloo, Humanity changes most of the icons	10:47
lolloo	I will try your recommendation, T-Co	10:47
merlin1991	I'm using the nokia n-series theme :P	10:47
lolloo	nice!	10:47
lolloo	Humanity is in repo, right?	10:48
T-Co	I think so. At least in extras-devel	10:48
psycho_oreos	I use the default theme, tried that dark theme and I didn't like it one bit (black and white).. the use of greyscale colouring I like	10:48
lolloo	T-Co, may I recommend for you?	10:49
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T-Co	lolloo, Shoot	10:49
lolloo	try blue-sky	10:49
lolloo	changes Icons and menu motion too!	10:49
mece	anyone wandered in the ways of QML around?	10:50
T-Co	Maybe some day, I'm now enjoying the retro-feel of Okuda	10:50
lolloo	awesome	10:50
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* lolloo is going to check Okuda theme		10:50
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T-Co	I really enjou the sounds in that theme.	10:51
* mece wanders off to #qt		10:52
T-Co	I should find ringtones and im tones to go with it,	10:52
lolloo	wow it has sounds! omg	10:52
lolloo	wow it has sounds! omg	10:52
lolloo	oops hehehe	10:52
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lolloo	T-Co, where did you get Okuda theme from? couldnt find it in repo.	10:54
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T-Co	lolloo, I think it's from extras-devel. Do you have that catalogue enabled?	10:56
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lolloo	Yes I think so,	10:57
lolloo	will try googling for it. no worries	10:57
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lolloo	here you go	11:01
lolloo	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=58667	11:01
lolloo	awesome right T-Co ?	11:03
psycho_oreos	looks like pacman's theme	11:04
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DocScrutinizer51	Jaffa: please read my rant on backscroll (100min ago)	11:05
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lolloo	hahaha	11:05
lolloo	hhhhhhhhaaa	11:06
parrot42	hello, is there a way to see the velocity/bearing in Qt Simulator when simulating for the N900 device?	11:06
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Jaffa	DocScrutinizer51: They're all supposed to be sent at the same time.	11:21
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Jaffa	dneary: X-Fade: sounds like there may be mail queue blockage or something?	11:25
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dneary	Jaffa, I don't know what the issue is. I have a few people asking me for tokens.	11:26
dneary	I got email fine, personally	11:26
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Jaffa	dneary: Ditto.	11:26
X-Fade	Mail host is not correct, so some providers will bounce when they are more strict.	11:27
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MNZ	good morning #maemo	11:32
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Stskeeps	morn	11:34
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ieatlint	man, the more i look into meego, the crappier it seems	11:36
MNZ	:(	11:36
lolloo	maemo FTW	11:37
ieatlint	there are a handful of things that actually look interesting, but the meego site is so crappy	11:37
Stskeeps	MNZ: you highlighted me yesterday? (was asleep, sorry)	11:37
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ieatlint	want to develop for meego handsets? sure, but only with qemu, and btw you need a nokia n900 in order to get the image ...	11:38
Stskeeps	ieatlint: we've actually fixed that problem ow	11:39
Stskeeps	now	11:39
Stskeeps	nolo gp is redistributable and we had the gles test running on the qemu image	11:39
ieatlint	want to develop for a meego netbook? well, once again, pretty much just linux... and you can either install it on a netbook, do a chroot environment that intel tells me requires the host machine have an intel gma, or use virtualbox -- but oh, btw, if you use virtualbox, you can't actually use the meego ui	11:39
ieatlint	just twm	11:39
Stskeeps	we're not idiots, we do see those kind of problems	11:39
Stskeeps	:P	11:39
ieatlint	no, it's not fixed	11:40
Stskeeps	ok, it's fixed but not released.	11:40
ieatlint	...	11:40
ieatlint	thanks? :P	11:40
MNZ	Stskeeps, nvm :) was just commenting on the state of meego	11:40
Stskeeps	ieatlint: the chroot issue (atom) i fully agree with.. the host machine being intel gma is a stupid phrasing, technically you can drop in your own libGL	11:41
Stskeeps	people already had meego running on nvidia, so	11:41
ieatlint	yeah, i just spent the past 3 days at meego events being run by intel	11:41
Stskeeps	MNZ: i don't personally share GAN's opinions - how's your kernel work going?	11:42
Stskeeps	ieatlint: ah, my condolences	11:42
ieatlint	not too impressed..	11:42
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ieatlint	Stskeeps: eh, open bar	11:42
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Stskeeps	ah, that always helps	11:42
dneary	Jaffa: We're looking into it with X-Fade	11:42
florian	good morning	11:42
Stskeeps	ieatlint: most people would be developing using qt creator and MADDE though and qt simulator	11:42
ieatlint	they violated the gpl too	11:42
Stskeeps	oh?	11:42
ieatlint	handed out usb flash drives with meego images on them	11:43
ieatlint	no source :P	11:43
dneary	It appears that the mail headers were showing a funny Return-path, and some mailers were rejecting it because of that	11:43
dneary	http://pastebin.ca/1942673	11:43
Stskeeps	ieatlint: well, you can do a written request.. can't recall how that part sounds again	11:43
MNZ	Stskeeps, well meego folk are confusing, no offense :P but I'm staying with maemo for a while, however futile that may seem.	11:43
ieatlint	haha	11:43
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ieatlint	i'm half tempted, but then i remember i'm trying to not be that asshole	11:43
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MNZ	Stskeeps, the kernel work is pretty much over, a GUI is needed for the EQ though and machine-level drivers are needed to make use of the filter on each specific machine (so for example on n900 we use it for speaker protection, etc)	11:45
MNZ	Which reminds me, is meego using PA as well?	11:45
Stskeeps	MNZ: i think there's a lot of different opinions and a lot of different people who people are unsure of where they are in charge of, makes discussions frustrating (even for someone working on the project). if we ignore the meego part completely, we have audio experts from n900 kernel in #meego-arm and kernel maintainers, so could be cool to hear about your work	11:45
Stskeeps	yes, we are - no other way when it comes to cmtspeech	11:46
Stskeeps	MNZ: we kinda have to work with upstream linux kernel, the meego part is 'just' packaging	11:46
Jaffa	dneary: Cool	11:46
MNZ	Stskeeps, I understand. Just another distro	11:47
Stskeeps	:nod:	11:47
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Stskeeps	we would be interested in speaker protection of the sole reason the current one is closed source, to my knowlege.	11:47
Stskeeps	dge	11:47
Jaffa	dneary: Yeah, I saw that as the Sender and thought it was some CDN thing	11:47
pexi	any good source for unofficial qtwrt device api? for example, how networking is accessible	11:48
Jaffa	dneary: Presumably the logs can be grepped to get the ones rejected and then resend (and/or regenerate)?	11:48
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RST38h	Stskeeps: AFAIK the current speaker protection is simply a frequency filter	11:48
MNZ	Stskeeps, I was planning to push to get this into upstream, but I wanted to make sure it's pretty clean first, and there are still some changes to make	11:48
Stskeeps	MNZ: :nod: if you want reviews, we're here :)	11:48
X-Fade	Jaffa: That is not possible as it bypassed the mailer and sent directly to the smarthost.	11:48
MNZ	RST38h, yeah it's a very simple filter.	11:48
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X-Fade	Jaffa: So a gentle "Reminder" mailing would probably be the best solution.	11:49
MNZ	I dumped sine wave sweep from 500hz to 0 into PA and checked out the output. I could easily replicate the filter using the audio codec's features	11:49
Stskeeps	so it sits on top of the current audio codec/driver for n900?	11:50
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MNZ	Stskeeps, the audio codec does the register setting and all that. How/what you use the filter for depends on the 'machine' driver (alsa SoC drivers are 3 parts, codec -> platform -> machine)	11:51
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Stskeeps	:nod:	11:51
MNZ	so write now I use the n900 driver (rx51.c) to set the filter up for speaker protection and turn it on automatically if speaker output starts	11:51
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MNZ	s/write/right/	11:52
infobot	MNZ meant: so right now I use the n900 driver (rx51.c) to set the filter up for speaker protection and turn it on automatically if speaker output starts	11:52
Stskeeps	we have jarkko nikula / jhnikula sitting in #meego-arm and i think he was very involved with the audio driver in fremantle program and now meego/n900	11:52
MNZ	yeah, I've seen his signature in a lot of places :D	11:52
Stskeeps	:nod:	11:52
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dneary	Jaffa, Not really	11:54
MNZ	Stskeeps, my main aim though is getting rid of PA, and I think it's possible, though not that easy, and will save a whole bunch of CPU/power. Problem is, I think a lot of people disagree with that	11:54
dneary	Because they're not being rejected in Maemo	11:54
dneary	I'm going to re-send the lot with a "reminder".	11:55
Stskeeps	MNZ: i think PA is here to stay, cos meego works on multiple devices	11:55
Stskeeps	MNZ: but if anything can be offloaded to codecs this is obviously good	11:55
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X-Fade	MNZ: Also think of audio routing for BT etc.	11:56
MNZ	X-Fade, quite frankly I haven't looked into that at all yet. But so far everything that faced us was solvable with ALSA plugins + hooks.	11:57
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MNZ	Stskeeps, PA works over ALSA, so that's sort of a moot point IMHO	11:58
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Stskeeps	MNZ: :nod: either way, i'm no expert	11:58
Stskeeps	MNZ: i would know who to put you in a room with to discuss these things though	11:59
MNZ	Stskeeps, that would be awesome. DocScrutinizer is also quite involved with this and I think he would like to join said discussion	12:00
Stskeeps	MNZ: :nod: it's kinda a higher level discussion than 'just' n900 when it comes to PA	12:00
timeless_pidgin	So, i just discovered there's an election. I discovered it by reading scrollback for a channel i rarely if ever read in that form.	12:00
timeless_pidgin	As i'm on vacation, i'm not even sure i could find an email in my mailbox...	12:01
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Stskeeps	MNZ: what was the page for your work?	12:01
Stskeeps	(garage somewhere?)	12:01
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MNZ	Stskeeps, https://garage.maemo.org/projects/aic34-eq/	12:02
MNZ	Stskeeps, (most everything is outdated, except for the repo)	12:02
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Stskeeps	:nod:	12:02
* timeless_pidgin kicks pidgin for its totally broken painting while scrolling in fullscreen		12:03
MNZ	I dunno why I parenthesized that 0_o	12:03
MNZ	timeless_pidgin, 25	12:03
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timeless_pidgin	Mnz: thanks. I don't think i'll spend one on pidgin atm.	12:06
Stskeeps	MNZ: not sure if he's around at the moment (typical lunchtime atm), but at least introductions have been initiated :)	12:07
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timeless_pidgin	For pidgin, the font/insert/smile/attention bar should be a single button in the same row as the user text line. Tapping it should bring up an overlay which doesn't affect layout and contains the current row of buttons.	12:08
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MNZ	Stskeeps, thanks :) appreciate the effort	12:08
Stskeeps	http://gitorious.org/nokia-n900-kernel is our current kernel 'tree' (we upstream from here and sync with upstream releases)	12:09
timeless_pidgin	And the channel list should probably be an overlay of the input area on the right side, tapping it could bring up an overlay of 60 percent of the screen width...	12:09
timeless_pidgin	And there should be an easy way to pick a much smaller font size.. Grr	12:09
timeless_pidgin	Oh, and the channel topic should share a row w/ the channel name !	12:10
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Jaffa	dneary: X-Fade: sounds sensible	12:20
dneary	Jaffa, Thanks :)	12:21
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dneary	Should be done by lunchtime (I don't want to resend tokens to people who have voted already)	12:21
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tet	Please, can someone help me getting some informations about the icon used in Maemo ? I don't understand where to find them or use them :(	12:34
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Carneque	hey tet	12:38
Carneque	which icon?	12:39
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tet	Carneque, I spent hours trying to understand an easy way to use any of the maemo default icons (stock icons) listed here http://www.forum.nokia.com/document/Maemo_5_Icon_List/	12:40
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Carneque	I'm taking a look here	12:42
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Carneque	The directory ../icons contains the folders with the related sized icons inside.	12:43
Carneque	So you'd just write your program around utilizing the stock item you want I believe	12:44
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tet	What is the exact path of this icon folder ?	12:46
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Carneque	turning my phone on	12:48
RST38h	"iPad sales are slashing laptop sales by as much as 50 per cent, according to the boss of US retailer Best Buy."	12:50
RST38h	Bye bye netbooks	12:50
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AminCX	my n900 is not charged any more and there is no sense when i connect the charger/usb connector to it,	12:51
Carneque	that's awesome for laptop buyers	12:51
AminCX	until 2 hour a go when device was turned off, if i connect the charger/usb it started up but now nothing will happened anymore, any help or suggestion will be welcome.	12:51
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tet	Carneque, Think i just found the folder... /n900/home/opt/usr/share/icons	12:53
Carneque	hey tet, did you search through the terminal?	12:53
tet	Carneque, My main problem was that i didn't want to point directly to the file	12:53
Carneque	why not?	12:54
tet	and use more something like "image = gtk.image_new_from_stock(hildon.GENERAL_ADD, gtk.ICON_SIZE_BUTTON)"	12:54
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tet	Because if in further release they modify the path :/ i'am screwed	12:54
tet	And to save me the trouble of finding files on N900 without a proper search tool :/	12:55
merlin1991	find in xterm?	12:55
Carneque	what folder was /n900 in, and why isn't that path written on the Maemo 5 icon list page?	12:55
tet	yeah it's what i finally did	12:55
Carneque	so there is no bash command loc	12:56
Carneque	I just got this	12:56
Carneque	phone	12:56
tet	no locate sadly :(	12:56
tet	/n900 is just an sshfs folder mounted on my computer	12:56
Carneque	oh okay	12:57
tet	I really don't get what the point is to make a full icon list and don't put the actual folder of these	12:57
Carneque	There isn't an extension pack yet with additional commands?	12:57
Carneque	whoever wrote that page should definetly consider adding it	12:57
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merlin1991	well a find / -name *.png \| grep <appname> shows the paths quite fast though :D	12:59
tet	merlin1991, in any case there is a bash command to do things. Sure i agree. Yet common utility folder like the icon one should be documented.	13:00
tet	and i still miss the locate command :'(	13:00
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chibi-taiga	hey guys	13:01
Carneque	okay... in findutils-gnu's description	13:01
chibi-taiga	is there an replacement for moonlight?	13:01
Carneque	it says 'locate' has been split off into a seperate packageg	13:01
tet	sunlight ? :/	13:01
Carneque	so it may exist in another package	13:01
chibi-taiga	....	13:01
chibi-taiga	moonlight thw linux ver for microsoft silverlight	13:02
chibi-taiga	the*	13:02
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crashanddie	why the hell would anyone want silverlight running on Linux?	13:27
crashanddie	Even if it's Open Source, it's utterly crap technology	13:27
crashanddie	It's like Flash designed by crackwhores	13:27
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Surfa	while many web-pages show content with it	13:27
Surfa	simple as that	13:27
crashanddie	define:"many"	13:27
crashanddie	There's many websites that use HTML/CSS to display shit	13:27
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Surfa	i could paste you plenty of finnish sites with silverlight content but you wouldn't agree anyway, so I'm not going to	13:28
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crashanddie	well, then there's plenty of finnish idiots!	13:30
crashanddie	Or at least, managers with too much grip on what their codemonkeys have to do.	13:31
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Surfa	everyone who disagrees with you is an idiot? :)	13:31
Stskeeps	that's pretty much his approach, yes	13:31
Stskeeps	;)	13:31
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crashanddie	Not at all	13:31
crashanddie	Anyone who willfully accepts silverlight as a valid technology is an idiot	13:32
Surfa	you prefer flash?	13:32
crashanddie	I hate Flash with a passion, I don't call people who use/develop in it idiots	13:32
Surfa	i thought flash was source of all evil	13:32
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lcuk	crashanddie, "why the hell would anyone.."	13:35
lcuk	its open source, we can	13:35
lcuk	and even if not	13:35
crashanddie	I didn't say you couldn't	13:35
crashanddie	I ask why you would.	13:35
lcuk	just because you dont think its useful	13:35
lcuk	others do	13:35
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crashanddie	well, then give me a proper rationale around the use of silverlight	13:36
lcuk	i dont have one	13:36
lcuk	i am not a silverlight person	13:36
lcuk	but others are	13:36
lcuk	ask me same question about why I care about gtk/hildon on meego etc and I might have more to say (and have done)	13:37
crashanddie	then don't bitch about my bitches -- I asked "Why the hell would you want it?", so unless there is a good reason to use silverlight rather than technology x (be it flash, html 5, whatever), I don't see the point of pointing out there are plenty of users or plenty of websites.	13:37
crashanddie	s/bitches/bitching/	13:37
infobot	crashanddie meant: then don't bitch about my bitching -- I asked "Why the hell would you want it?", so unless there is a good reason to use silverlight rather than technology x (be it flash, html 5, whatever), I don't see the point of pointing out there are plenty of users ...	13:37
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Surfa	well, i don't need to ask people why should i use something, typically i try to learn if it's useful for me or not.. if not, then I'm simply not going to use it and not telling everyone that it's crap and it shouldn't be ever on the linux	13:40
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Surfa	i personally would like to see silverlight on linux as well, asap please :)	13:41
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psycho_oreos	ask steve ballmer	13:44
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lcuk	hmmm frals	13:51
lcuk	if i send an animated gif	13:51
lcuk	via you know what, does it play at the other end?	13:51
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Macer	luke-jr: you have tmob?	14:00
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crashanddie	Surfa: damn, you're thick.	14:06
Surfa	crashanddie, like talking to a mirror right?	14:06
crashanddie	and damn, windows 7 "first run" takes a bloody long time	14:08
crashanddie	Surfa: not really, I just get reasonably pissed when people put words in my mouth.	14:08
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DocScrutinizer	Stskeeps: jacekowski: ShadowJK: ok, some 7h of device hooked up to charger and kept in NOLO "u" were enough to get 3.07V on battery	14:10
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th3hate	any way to fix a corrupted internal memory (eMMC) ? it says device storage format unsupported	14:12
DocScrutinizer	so definitely: NOLO is NOT charging. Recommendations to keep device in 'u' mode to recover from flat battery are absolutely contraproductive	14:12
DocScrutinizer	th3hate: reflash eMMC	14:12
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DocScrutinizer51	SpeedEvil: ^^^ s/ Stskeeps / SpeedEvil /	14:16
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th3hate	DocScrutinizer, flash valilla emmc with same flags as rootfs?	14:16
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DocScrutinizer51	flash both. Which flags?	14:17
SpeedEvil	Interesting	14:17
DocScrutinizer51	~flashing	14:17
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infobot	rumour has it, flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware	14:17
DocScrutinizer51	SpeedEvil: NOLO is ignoring 'u' and enters charging mode with flashing yellow now on flat bat	14:18
merlin1991	th3hate, afaik, flash emmc without rebootflag, and then rootfs	14:18
har	I can't get the app manager to work over my wi-fi (it works on ther wifi-s). Any suggestions why? I tried turning the firewall off, it doesn't help.	14:19
SpeedEvil	hmm	14:19
DocScrutinizer51	merlin1991: exactly	14:19
SpeedEvil	har: I would install rootsh - then do apt-gert install fmms - or something - to get a reasble log	14:20
SpeedEvil	readable	14:20
SpeedEvil	har: What do you mean by doesn't work - what doesn't work	14:20
th3hate	merlin1991, reboot is -R ?	14:20
merlin1991	yes	14:20
har	it doesn't download files and doesn't update itself. Internet works in browser.	14:21
lcuk	great post by EIPI: "All the talk about the legacy devices (e.g. N8X0, 770) by the candidates in that Q&A I did got me recharging my N800 for the first time in months - like 3 months! I updated to the latest Community SSU, installed Telescope and Diablo5 theme. And WOW - another highlight for me! That screen size, form factor and now with these little bells and whistles makes this thing so refreshed! Thank you to the devels of Telescope, Diablo	14:21
lcuk	5 and the Community SSU. My N800 feels invigorated." http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=818528#post818528	14:21
mece	lcuk, pretty cool!	14:21
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* rmrfchik has n810 as well		14:24
rmrfchik	don't know how to use it now :(	14:24
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DocScrutinizer	har: repo servers might be temporarily down	14:31
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Carneque	Is there a way to take a screen shot on the N900?	14:36
bleader	at least, there is a plugin	14:36
visz	ctrl-shift-p	14:37
bleader	you can start it, press camera key and it takes a screenshot, can't remember the name through	14:37
DocScrutinizer	Carneque: ctrl-sh-P	14:37
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Carneque	on the keyboard?	14:37
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DocScrutinizer	search for picture file in .images/screenshots iirc	14:38
DocScrutinizer	Carneque: sure on kbd, where else? :-D	14:38
Carneque	I guess I'm just confused how I get capital P and press sh all at the same time?	14:39
DocScrutinizer	ooh?	14:39
Carneque	yeah haha	14:39
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har	hm, so it would seem	14:40
Carneque	lol I thought you meant the letters s and h	14:41
Carneque	<---- duh	14:41
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DocScrutinizer51	SpeedEvil: anybody: doesn somebody know off top of his head the twl4030 hard cutout voltage threshold for whole system? I.E which is minimum voltage the N900 needs to boot?	14:45
DocScrutinizer51	(boot to NOLO)	14:45
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DocScrutinizer51	SpeedEvil: haha, inserting charger for <1s makes NOLO boot to system instead of charging low battery	14:54
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hrw	~curse pyqt	14:57
sobczyk	the madde has no support for opengl in qt4?	14:57
infobot	May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, pyqt !	14:57
hrw	self.setAttribute(Qt.WA_Maemo5StackedWindow)	14:58
hrw	fails	14:58
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merlin1991	hm that curse defenitely should go May you be reincarnated as a Windows Vista administrator, <nick>!	14:58
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RST38h	moo.	15:01
DocScrutinizer51	SpeedEvil: answering my own Q: <3.0V seems NOLO and so whole hw doesn't start	15:02
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DocScrutinizer51	20 inserts of charger for a moment - to make NOLO try boot the system - did the trick to discharge cell from 3.1 to 2.99	15:03
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DocScrutinizer	now testing emergency recovery charge from host usb	15:07
DocScrutinizer	steady yellow :-)	15:07
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DocScrutinizer	but different to charger where it took 10s max, now it seems to take its time	15:08
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luke-jr	isn't it supposed to take 30 min?	15:09
DocScrutinizer	nah, it takes until cell voltage is >3.0V	15:09
DocScrutinizer	then NOLO starts up	15:10
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DocScrutinizer	yeah	15:10
DocScrutinizer	now	15:10
DocScrutinizer	"NOKIA" and flashing yellow	15:10
RST38h	Doc: It is dead, Jim. You take its tricorder, and I will take its purse.	15:11
DocScrutinizer	and mass storage :-o	15:11
DocScrutinizer	now it booted to normal act_dead	15:11
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DocScrutinizer	which means it had a very short green or white flash on ind LED, and now continues flashing yellow and black screen instead of "NOKIA" (normal behaviour)	15:12
DocScrutinizer	mass storage however was obviously a function of NOLO :-O	15:13
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cheriff	hello - what bit depth is the general UI rendered at? I thought it was 565-16bpp but something early in boot complains about unsupported depth and reboots. is it looking for 24bpp on /dev/fb0 ?	15:16
RST38h	16	15:16
RST38h	It is RGB565]	15:16
cheriff	hmm, thats what I thought. thanks	15:16
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jpinx-eeepc	I am getting intermittent hicups networking through the usb connection, sometime works fine other times not. when not and I do /etc/init.d/networking restart I get an error "Reconfiguring network interfaces...sh: missing ] " Anyone able to point me in the right direction to fix it?	15:22
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mgedmin	jpinx-eeepc, try sh -x /etc/init.d/networking restart	15:23
mgedmin	try to find out which command is causing that error	15:23
Carneque	Is the N900 supposed to come with a CD for your computer?	15:23
Duckboot	Carneque: No - It's supposed to replace your computer	15:24
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jpinx-eeepc	mgedmin: ouch - lots of output that I'll have to sift through and transcribe...	15:25
Carneque	good one	15:25
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mgedmin	jpinx-eeepc, welcome to the wonderful world of software	15:25
mgedmin	most likely there's a broken script in /etc/network/if-*.d/	15:26
jpinx-eeepc	mgedmin: going through it now...	15:26
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jpinx-eeepc	here we go	15:27
DocScrutinizer	wwell, maybe mass storage mode isn't supported by NOLO but very early in regular system boot, even before grafix card gets cleaned from "NOLO" picture that remained in framebuffer	15:27
jpinx-eeepc	... + ifdown -a sh: missing ]	15:27
jpinx-eeepc	mgedmin: where do I fix that?	15:27
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jpinx-eeepc	iow - where is ifdown ?	15:28
jpinx-eeepc	no other errors apart from the last line saying echo failed and exit 0	15:29
mgedmin	ifdown is one of the system commands that also runs scripts	15:30
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mgedmin	try inserting 'set -x' near the top of each script in /etc/network/if-down.d/*	15:31
jpinx-eeepc	ok - moment ...	15:31
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jpinx-eeepc	seems to be only one - mc-await-disconnect-script	15:33
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jpinx-eeepc	mgedmin: it refers me to a missing ] in /usr/bin/mc-await-disconnect	15:41
jpinx-eeepc	so how do I fix that?	15:41
mgedmin	syntax errors in scripts in /usr/bin?	15:42
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mgedmin	is this on a n900?	15:42
jpinx-eeepc	yes	15:42
mgedmin	it's a binary file	15:42
mgedmin	it can't have syntax errors	15:43
jpinx-eeepc	yes :(	15:43
SpeedEvil	you haven't done anything silly like swapped the default shell for bash?	15:43
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mgedmin	those must be coming from some shell script that it executes	15:43
mgedmin	strace?	15:43
SpeedEvil	there are scripts in /usr/bin IIRC	15:43
jpinx-eeepc	I did install bash	15:43
mgedmin	(true but irrelevant)	15:43
jpinx-eeepc	using ash (default shell) I get the same error	15:45
SpeedEvil	you can't run the normal scripts with bash	15:46
SpeedEvil	they do not work	15:46
SpeedEvil	Use the bu	15:46
SpeedEvil	ah - k	15:46
jpinx-eeepc	?	15:46
SpeedEvil	Work out where in the script the output about the error is after	15:47
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jpinx-eeepc	SpeedEvil: it's immediately after + exec /usr/bin/mc-await-disconnect	15:49
SpeedEvil	I ge the same error from ifdown -a	15:49
jpinx-eeepc	the error is the next line " sh: missing ] "	15:49
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jpinx-eeepc	yea - it seems to be part of the ifdown daemon	15:50
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* jpinx-eeepc is not even sure if this is the root of his problem with networking over usb		15:51
oscillik	i swear	15:51
oscillik	i'm getting rid of my N900	15:52
SpeedEvil	strace reveals /etc/network/if-post-down.d/zz_static_ip_if_down	15:52
mgedmin	send it to me, oscillik!	15:52
oscillik	unless someone can let me know if you can clear the cache for the email application	15:52
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oscillik	30 seconds to open an email is ridiculous	15:52
alterego	Does iced tea ship with a microb plugin?	15:52
SpeedEvil	hmm	15:52
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jpinx-eeepc	SpeedEvil: in the end we can't edit the binary	15:53
oscillik	does anyone know if it's possible to clear the cache for email? because i'm positive that's the problem	15:54
oscillik	the email application is snappy and fast within the first week of reflashing it	15:54
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oscillik	after that, it just gets worse	15:54
SpeedEvil	jpinx-eeepc: In trhe end, the error is clearly oming from a script that binary calls. You can fix it	15:55
SpeedEvil	oscillik: Sorry - no clue - I've uninstalled modest.	15:55
cheriff	RST38h: do you know what X does with the remainder of the 1920k? given that its above 8004802. double/triple buffered?	15:55
jpinx-eeepc	SpeedEvil: cool - which script ? :)	15:55
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oscillik	thanks SpeedEvil, at least i now know that the N900 is a lost cause for me	15:55
* jpinx-eeepc is a whole lot happier now that SpeedEvil has the same issue		15:56
jpinx-eeepc	oscillik: send it to me ;)	15:56
oscillik	yeah sure, £300 please ;)	15:56
oscillik	seriously, at this point, i'm looking to part-exchange it at Computer Exchange for a Nexus One	15:57
jpinx-eeepc	oscillik: 200 if it's still under warranty 6months	15:57
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SpeedEvil	jpinx-eeepc: strace	15:57
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jpinx-eeepc	SpeedEvil: hw does that parse? strace /etc/init.d/networking restart	15:58
SpeedEvil	jpinx-eeepc: strace -f will follow forks and give you info on all scripts somethings calling	15:59
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jpinx-eeepc	SpeedEvil: ash: strace: not found	15:59
SpeedEvil	apt-gret install strace	16:00
jpinx-eeepc	yea	16:00
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SpeedEvil	http://maemo.org/packages/view/strace/	16:00
jpinx-eeepc	SpeedEvil: the problem is that my issue with networking means I can not get the n900 online to install :(	16:01
dneary	Hmmm	16:01
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dneary	Eliminating dups is a pain	16:01
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jpinx-eeepc	dneary: there are packages for that	16:01
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dneary	jpinx-eeepc, It's concerning elections, tmp tokens, etc. Not quite the same thing :)	16:02
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SpeedEvil	jpinx-eeepc: setup usb networking	16:02
jpinx-eeepc	SpeedEvil: that's what doesn't work	16:03
jpinx-eeepc	I got it to work once, by some lucky fluke	16:03
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SpeedEvil	Or download the packages and install with dpkg	16:04
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jpinx-eeepc	SpeedEvil: yea - I can see this taking a bit of time, but thanks for the good pointers ;)	16:04
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jpinx-eeepc	I'll work on it now and see what happens	16:04
jpinx-eeepc	all for a missing ]	16:04
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SpeedEvil	Also.	16:06
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SpeedEvil	It could be merely cosemetic.	16:06
SpeedEvil	Don't assume that errors are rthe cause of it not working	16:06
DocScrutinizer51	SpeedEvil: ok, somehow I managed to get device into a state where NOLO starts up and makes yellow flash, but actually no power taken from USB (=not charging). Had to remove battery to cure that	16:07
jpinx-eeepc	SpeedEvil: I saidd that earlier	16:07
SpeedEvil	If it works for most people, erros that are 'normal' may not be chased	16:07
jpinx-eeepc	SpeedEvil: ping: sendmsg: Invalid argument	16:07
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: funky	16:07
SpeedEvil	jpinx-eeepc: gotta be root	16:07
jpinx-eeepc	I am ;)	16:07
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DocScrutinizer51	~flatbatrecover	16:10
infobot	Remove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered Nokia wallcharger to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber going off - in this case start over again with ~flatbatrecover	16:10
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DocScrutinizer51	seems still OK	16:11
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DocScrutinizer51	anyway: U-mode is blocked in NOLO when battery is too low. So on bootloops having run flat the battery nothing will help except external charger	16:19
DocScrutinizer51	esp since u-mode also does NOT charge	16:19
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X-Fade	DocScrutinizer51: Are you sure it doesn't charge?	16:21
DocScrutinizer51	yes	16:21
DocScrutinizer51	definitely	16:21
X-Fade	DocScrutinizer51: Not that the CPU is spinning at full and the usb port hardware is up, which uses more than it charges?	16:21
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DocScrutinizer51	it's taking much less than 30mA from my USB charger	16:21
DocScrutinizer51	probably zero	16:22
X-Fade	Ok, that should be enough proof then.	16:22
SpeedEvil	bug time	16:22
X-Fade	When booted you will see a warning when you use more than you charge.	16:22
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DocScrutinizer51	X-Fade: last night it run flat while on charger in u-mode	16:23
DocScrutinizer51	really flat	16:23
DocScrutinizer51	like 3.05V cell voltage	16:23
X-Fade	Ah, well not totally flat but close ;)	16:23
DocScrutinizer51	yeah, hw cutout threshold	16:24
X-Fade	My N800's battery was at 0.05V yesterday.	16:24
SpeedEvil	It goes to 2780mV or so	16:24
DocScrutinizer51	below 3V the hw won't start up	16:24
jpinx-eeepc	SpeedEvil: from the laptop to the n900, why would I be getting "ping: sendmsg: Invalid argument" ?	16:24
kerio	jpinx-eeepc: no route	16:25
SpeedEvil	yeah - I mean still running	16:26
SpeedEvil	2724 is the lowest I see on logs	16:26
SpeedEvil	bme dead	16:27
DocScrutinizer51	on a sidenote (for those interested): NOLO yellow flashing is an itsy tad dimmer than normal system notification for charging	16:27
jpinx-eeepc	kerio: it's listed in /etc/network/interfaces as static with the right info, but comes up in route as "local-link"	16:27
jpinx-eeepc	and as 192.168.2.0	16:27
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CutMeOwnThroat	jpinx-eeepc!	16:35
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CutMeOwnThroat	hm, I don't think I can track down why the "Fn" and "Enter" key don't work as they should... perhaps the best would be just to play the original N810 image(s) back in?	16:37
CutMeOwnThroat	I'm sure it's some software-thing, because the keys trigger the clicking noise that the N810 makes when on keystrokes when the sound is on	16:38
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dneary	Bombs away	16:43
dneary	Apologies for the delay	16:43
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jpinx-eeepc	CutMeOwnThroat: !	16:44
X-Fade	dneary: received	16:45
dneary	cool	16:45
dneary	Dups removed, but if you voted already you mighht still get a new voting token	16:45
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sobczyk	is it possible to disable virtual keyboard for certain apps?	16:46
jpinx-eeepc	mine doesn't work for all apps anyway:/	16:47
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sobczyk	I want to use qt4 and want the VK work for all apps except the one I'm developing now	16:48
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Munkiii	Can anybody help me with this problem?	16:52
Munkiii	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=62442	16:52
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GAN900	Too many people to vote for.	16:55
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pupnik_	good question Munkiii	16:58
Munkiii	i guess nobody knows how?	16:58
ieatlint	GAN900: agreed... and inconveniently, they're listed by name despite often being known by a handle	16:59
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GAN900	ieatlint, handle is in the parens on the voting page.	17:01
ieatlint	ah... i haven't logged in yet, just have the emails	17:01
lcuk	GAN900, http://maemo.org/vote/	17:01
X-Fade	ieatlint: Well if you aren't smart enough to spot the nick then you have other problems ;)	17:01
lcuk	theres a lot of good candidates in this election!	17:01
ieatlint	X-Fade: you don't get my vote now :P	17:01
X-Fade	ieatlint: Don't need your vote ;) Sole dictator role suits me a lot better :D	17:02
ieatlint	haha	17:02
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GAN900	Mmmm	17:03
GAN900	Seriously	17:03
ieatlint	you'll have to share that with intel soon... i wish you luck	17:03
jpinx-eeepc	kerio: ok - I have the usb local network working, but I can not get the n900 to connect by usb to the laptops wifi	17:03
GAN900	OK, first person to give me $20 gets my vote.	17:03
Stskeeps	zimbabwe dollars count	17:03
Stskeeps	?	17:03
GAN900	No.	17:03
GAN900	US	17:03
GAN900	and you're not on the ballot Mr. MeeGo.	17:04
ieatlint	you'd spend more than $20 trying to find a $20 zimbabwean note	17:04
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GAN900	I really hate trying to figure who wont need my vote to get in.	17:05
pupnik_	how many total members GAN900	17:05
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GAN900	5 seats, 10 candidates.	17:06
kerio	jpinx-eeepc: enabled forwarding and nat or forwarding and bridging?	17:06
pupnik_	what are a couple of priorities for the council that need promoting at this time?	17:06
kerio	and the appropriate routing on the n900	17:06
kerio	and the fake tablet connectivity connection	17:06
jpinx-eeepc	kerio: route on teh laptop shows the default route as my wifi - what esle is needed?	17:07
kerio	enable forwarding, set up routing on the n900 itself	17:08
pupnik_	one commenter thought the community was more "developer oriented" than "user oriented". That seems proper to me, since the main use of the community is supporting the platform via ports and development.	17:08
kerio	i s'pose	17:08
kerio	what users	17:08
kerio	the n900 has no users	17:08
jpinx-eeepc	kerio: route on teh n900 shows the laptop IP as default route	17:08
ieatlint	haha, indeed	17:08
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GAN900	pup	17:09
GAN900	pupnik_, lemmyslender is a little bit confused.	17:09
GAN900	But I see it as CONTRIBUTOR oriented.	17:10
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GAN900	Which is neither exclusively developer- nor user-oriented.	17:10
pupnik_	ok you're right, there are many important ways to contribute besides developing	17:10
GAN900	I think the point is that it's not really end-user oriented.	17:11
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Munkiii	Seriously, nobody knows anything? - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=62442	17:11
SpeedEvil	Munkiii: Many people won't bother loading a random URL for what could be a stupid question.	17:12
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SpeedEvil	It's generally a good idea to give a sentance or two about the URL, and why we might be interested in loading it.	17:12
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SpeedEvil	Plus - the vast majority of people won't be able to anwer your question.	17:12
SpeedEvil	You're just wastinge their rrime, and annoying them if you do that.	17:12
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jpinx-eeepc	kerio: got it working - thanks for the pointers :)	17:15
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GAN900	Votes away	17:16
* GAN900 crosses fingers.		17:16
Munkiii	Ok, i am asking if anybody knows how to re-arrange desktops, i want to change the order of desktops around without manually removing all widgets and putting them back on other desktops.	17:16
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DocScrutinizer51	hahaha "too high temperature detected, flashlight disabled"	17:16
kerio	DocScrutinizer: what's the temperature?	17:16
DocScrutinizer51	dunno, 20s later system shut down due to low battery	17:17
GAN900	Everybody be sure to vote in the council election.	17:17
DocScrutinizer51	also no idea which temperature the flashlight app is using to determine that	17:18
GAN900	Having a good voter turnout helps ensure a strong mandate for the next council (which gives a lot more clout with Nokia and MeeGo).	17:18
DocScrutinizer51	everybody be sure to receive their token	17:19
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GAN900	dneary resent this morning.	17:19
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DocScrutinizer51	umm ok, I'll check my mail	17:20
dneary	GAN900, Correction: this afternoon	17:20
GAN900	dneary, your timezone is a lie.	17:21
Venemo	hey maemo guys :)	17:21
Munkiii	'lo	17:24
pupnik_	"After spending a few weeks with linux, using Windows NT and 98 felt like wearing a straightjacket riding down a steep hill in a baby-buggy"	17:24
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dneary	pupnik_, He means, "felt like fun"	17:30
dneary	pupnik_, "felt like being alive again"	17:30
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: ShadowJK: with bme stopped system shuts down hard on ~3.0V, For battery <3.0V emergency charging, on ~3.0V NOLO boots and starts sw controlled charging, on ~3.3V NOLO boots up act_dead system for normal charging	17:31
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DocScrutinizer	dneary: mail made it thru spam filters :-)	17:34
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dneary	docscrutinizer: kewl	17:34
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pupnik_	dneary: :) i think it meant 'loss of control' of course	17:34
DocScrutinizer	dneary: thanks for sorting it	17:36
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dneary	pupnik_, Riding down a steep hill in a buggy with a straightjacket on sounds like fun to me	17:40
dneary	I saw it on Jackass	17:40
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lcuk	dneary, change the title of that thread "Voting tokens going out tomorrow"	17:47
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lcuk	it keeps coming up at the top of my mailbox	17:47
lcuk	and I actually thought voting hadn't started!	17:47
dneary	lcuk: OK, next time Ig to it	17:47
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lcuk	\o	17:48
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oscillik	ok, the deed is done. i will be	18:22
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oscillik	exchanging my N900 tomorrow	18:22
pupnik_	what caused that decision oscillik	18:23
oscillik	i have a spare BL-5J (N900) and BP-4L (E90) battery, if anyone wants them. £10 each	18:23
oscillik	pupnik_: the email client being absolute gash	18:23
Jaffa	oscillik: And what are you getting instead?	18:24
oscillik	Nexus One	18:24
Jaffa	oscillik: Does it do proper quoting?	18:24
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oscillik	the slow performance and lack of features of the email client on the N900 is just too much to bare, for me personally anyways	18:25
pupnik_	what does the email client on that do that the n900 doesn't?	18:25
Jaffa	oscillik: Presumably, being Google Mail, it does proper conversations & threading	18:25
pupnik_	bear	18:25
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oscillik	and it doesn't take upwards of 30 seconds to 1 minute to open emails	18:25
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oscillik	also, with the Nexus One, i don't have to rely on Nokia Messaging for "push" email	18:26
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zap	So, now micro$oft 0wnz Nokia?	18:27
oscillik	lol wut?	18:27
zap	http://itfanat.com/7639.html	18:28
oscillik	erm, you DO know that guy was an ex-Microsoft employee, right?	18:28
oscillik	also, the english in that article is terrible	18:29
zap	my english is not better	18:29
nidO	he was also employed by juniper, macromedia, and adobe	18:29
nidO	do they all ownz microsoft and nokia?!	18:29
pupnik_	if that guy can get some microsoft office support into nokia phones, i'll call it a win	18:30
zap	okay, I just hope that guy doesn't jump out of his pants when he hears "linux"	18:30
pupnik_	yes, he's got to get behind meego - has he said anything about it?	18:30
zap	oscillik: here's a better english: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11257069	18:30
oscillik	"He is leaving his current job as the head of Microsoft's Business Division after only 20 months with the US software giant."	18:31
GAN900	The Nexus One's screen sucks.	18:32
oscillik	the screen isn't that much of an issue for me	18:32
oscillik	what is an issue is the completely abhorrent performance of the email client	18:33
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pupnik_	So email client wasn't open-sourced apparently	18:34
DocScrutinizer51	it is	18:35
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alterego	ping lcuk	18:36
nidO	it is, but its 1) crap anyway and 2) crippled to worse than crap to the point where even just undoing half the limitations nokia's imposed is a boatload of unwanted hassle	18:36
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alterego	Woah, a 5M executable?	18:37
alterego	I wonder why that's so big ..	18:37
alterego	Hah, it's actually 6661KB ..	18:38
alterego	Ah, without debugging symbols it's 216K	18:39
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DocScrutinizer51	I sail to get it why nobody has managed to plumb a demi decent GUI to a working existing mail client	18:39
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dridk	hi	18:40
DocScrutinizer51	err fail	18:40
DocScrutinizer51	and semi, ffs	18:41
alterego	You're right, that was a fail ;)	18:41
dridk	How can I play a a video streaming from http://tv.freebox.fr/iphone/france2.m3u8 ?I mean , which command do I need to write in terminal to launch the player ?	18:41
alterego	Obviously you require a fail client :P	18:41
nidO	I just have to make do with my old-ass e90 when i'm expecting to need serious mail while out anywhere	18:42
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alterego	Meh, I just use web interfaces tbh	18:43
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DocScrutinizer51	for sure I don't need a mail client on maemo - mail management is just a nightmare on a fullfeatured desktop mail client, with decent kbd and 21' screen	18:43
nidO	well, there are varying degrees. I dont want or expect to be able to fully manage all aspects of my mail from a titchy little screen, i'd just love an imap client that actually works.	18:44
pupnik_	some people have to use email intensely for work: i understand their frustration with Modest	18:44
nidO	for that I have to turn back to symbian	18:44
pupnik_	nidO: do you find that some symbian apps are faster to use than maemo equivalents?	18:44
pupnik_	i'm thinking of the ui and menu structure	18:45
pupnik_	and speed of doing various operations	18:45
DocScrutinizer51	pupnik_: n900 is definitely not the right device for people doing large amounts of email, no matter which mailer they use	18:45
nidO	yes, on my e90 specifically a good deal of real productivity-related stuff is much faster to do than on maemo	18:45
nidO	both for ui reasons and also tbh the keyboard, the e90 version of which I can use infinitely faster than the n900's	18:46
pupnik_	i found the e71 easy to learn and use without any study	18:46
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oscillik	ProfiMail is, by far, the best mobile email client i have ever used	18:47
pupnik_	perhaps the symbian folks at nokia should be engaged as meego-testers -- see what annoys them and you learn what symbian users are going to want out of the next-gen	18:47
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oscillik	but even the standard built-in email client on Symbian is complete crap	18:47
nidO	plus the n900 is just slower to respond in general than an e90 or most e-series symbian's - modest takes an age to list a mail folder, my e90's built-in client or profimail both display them basically instantly	18:47
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DocScrutinizer51	honestly who's claiming to do professional work on email on a 800x480, should get fired	18:48
oscillik	i'm not claiming to do professional work	18:48
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oscillik	i'm just saying that in 2010, it is ridiculous to press the email notification (to open the email) and have to wait upwards of 1 whole minute for that email to open	18:48
nidO	I claim that I do on my e90's 800x352 screen \o/	18:49
DocScrutinizer51	even my 1280x800 feels slow for mailer with those 400mails/day	18:49
nidO	i wish I got that few :(	18:49
DocScrutinizer51	slow to work on due to being small	18:50
nidO	tbh screen size is going to always be a hinderance to getting stuff done, but that doesnt mean the software has to cripple it even further	18:50
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alterego	mece: I just uploaded a new version of my GPS app, if you're interested	18:55
DocScrutinizer	ack	18:55
DocScrutinizer	no doubt modest is modest	18:55
mece	alterego, cool.. we talking devel or that place you put that thing that time?	18:55
alterego	Just the executable.	18:55
mece	k.	18:55
alterego	Where I uploaded it last time.	18:56
alterego	Still a couple of small things I want to tidy before I start publishing to extras	18:56
mece	k.	18:57
alterego	This version requires qtm-systeminfo	18:57
mece	I'm having a bit of trouble with zooming a flickable area	18:57
mece	I used NumberAnimation to change scale	18:58
alterego	Right	18:58
alterego	Let me guess? Centering?	18:58
mece	uh-huh	18:58
alterego	:)	18:58
mece	exactomundo. Got a solution for that?	18:58
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mece	well it's scaling around center, naturally.	18:59
alterego	Well, the only thing I can think of, is you need to modify the position proportional to the scale factor :/	18:59
mece	yeah. Or the distance from the center poportional to the scale factor.	18:59
rmrfchik	is there any developers? maemo packaging drives me mad	18:59
mece	rmrfchik, what's the problem? It's main purpose is to make people mad it seems.	18:59
alterego	I've not actually come across that issue, but I can see that as being a problem :)	19:00
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mece	uh. Actually I have to go. The Horde need a feeding	19:00
alterego	Okay, have fun :)	19:00
mece	bbl.	19:00
alterego	I'm going out in 30 minutes so ..	19:00
alterego	Talk to you soon ;)	19:00
* hardaker hates packaging. .deb; .rpm; they all suck		19:01
hardaker	sigh.	19:01
hardaker	anyone have a solution to this one: error while loading shared libraries: /usr/lib/libval-threads.so.8: unexpected reloc type 0x03	19:01
rmrfchik	mece: packaging removes "+x" from my binary.	19:01
rmrfchik	I don't want to put binary to /usr/bin as it root, I want to put it to /opt/maemo/usr/bin	19:01
rmrfchik	and when I do this, +x is removed	19:01
alterego	Interesting ..	19:02
dridk	How can I open a file with the media player ?	19:03
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rmrfchik	just tried madde example. this put binary to root fs, insane	19:04
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alterego	debug goes into /usr/local yes	19:04
alterego	Not sure why they changed that	19:04
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DocScrutinizer	~optification	19:11
infobot	i guess optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs	19:11
DocScrutinizer	get /usr and /var sorted, nuke /opt	19:11
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DocScrutinizer	I'm tempted to see what meego does for the optification problem aka root isn't 32G issue... Or mabby not	19:13
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MNZ	Any hints on where to start to get familiar with NEON ?	19:18
hrw	http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/2010/09/17/is-designing-ui-simple-with-qt/	19:20
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DocScrutinizer	my /usr/bin has 340 true files and 432 links. either way it's odd	19:27
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DocScrutinizer	files that are needed for boot first phase (until single user and mounting volumes) have to go to /bin, rather than /usr/bin (see FHS). Then the rest (the links) could stay in /usr/bin and whole /usr move to eMMC (that's what /usr is meant for)	19:30
DocScrutinizer	of course same applies to /usr/sbin	19:31
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kerio	DocScrutinizer: yeah but that would require having a clue	19:43
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Tott3[AEX]	Hiho	19:59
DocScrutinizer	kerio: there are enough people with a clue, but what's more problematic than any lack of expertise is implementing and deploying a painless migration path	19:59
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DocScrutinizer	what's the nice term I heard recently? botch once, suffer many	20:00
* DocScrutinizer wonders if eMMC VANILLA image file could get modified in a way it flashes /home partition only, keeping the VFAT partition untouched		20:02
kerio	DocScrutinizer: let's hope meego doesn't do the same stupid shit	20:03
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pupnik_	what do you do when knowledgable people disagree about what would be stupid, kerio	20:04
kerio	pupnik_: why, lock them in a cage and make them swallow a copy of the key each	20:05
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kerio	make them kill each other to get the key in their stomach	20:05
kerio	the one that survives gets to decide	20:05
MNZ	kerio, that is stupid	20:06
MNZ	they'll gank up on one and kill him and get the key	20:06
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MNZ	then the rest will leave	20:06
kerio	MNZ: oh, we're talking about more than two people	20:06
MNZ	you are still left with more than one person to decide	20:06
kerio	i see	20:06
pupnik_	you could be a lawyer, MNZ	20:07
MNZ	I vote for a fiddle playing contest. A fiddle-off, if I may.	20:07
MNZ	May the best fiddler prevail!	20:07
DocScrutinizer	more than two knowledgeable people? o.O	20:07
DocScrutinizer	impossible	20:07
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pupnik_	imagining for a moment a powerful community council; how much of a factor should be "knowledge of maemo OS / APIs / apps"	20:08
pupnik_	voting factor	20:08
DocScrutinizer	also we got another problem: who decides who's knowledgeable? The one über-knowledgeable?	20:08
MNZ	pupnik_, a lawyer.. probably not. But I'm enough of an a-hole to get myself out of a hypothetical situation such as the one kerio proposed.	20:09
pupnik_	imagining each voter uses best of his/her knowledge DocScrutinizer - voting yields median opinion	20:09
kerio	DocScrutinizer: "Ha. Well, that's a tricky one... I mean, who's qualified to judge something like that? This is the world's smartest man we're talking about here, so how can you tell? How can anyone tell if he's gone crazy?"	20:10
DocScrutinizer	aah I see, you're thinking about 5 people to swallow the key :-P	20:10
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DocScrutinizer	honestly, sanitizing optification would be a really nice milestone for harmattan	20:11
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DocScrutinizer	and to me at least it seems it's not really hard, if we can just rip out MyDocs partition from VANILLA image, and instead fill the former /home partition with /usr/[(s)bin,share,foo] /var and /home	20:14
MNZ	and then fix all the optified packages	20:14
DocScrutinizer	yeah	20:15
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DocScrutinizer	I'm recommending for long now there MUST be a simple way to deoptify	20:15
DocScrutinizer	~2119	20:15
infobot	The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.	20:15
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felipec	is anybody compiling their own kernel?	20:16
MNZ	I do. But it's the rather oooldddd maemo kernel, .28	20:17
DocScrutinizer	for packages using the auto-optification option of buildhost (sorry if my wording is odd here, I got abscesses looking into it so am not really familiar with it) it should be rather simple to deoptify	20:17
felipec	MNZ: but it's based on the debian package, right? not something close to mainline	20:18
MNZ	it's just mainline + nokia patches + 'debian' directory with the debian control files	20:19
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MNZ	how 'close' to mainline do you need?	20:19
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felipec	MNZ: how many nokia patches?	20:19
DocScrutinizer	lol	20:19
MNZ	felipec, I have no idea. It's one big ass patch that comes with the package sources	20:20
felipec	MNZ: right, that's what I thought... that's pretty far from upstream	20:20
felipec	30k lines of code last I checked	20:20
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DocScrutinizer	kewl	20:20
felipec	er, 30k patches	20:20
MNZ	are you reaaally using mainline??	20:20
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felipec	MNZ: yes, on the beagleboard	20:21
DocScrutinizer	err what? 30k files? with patches?? o.O	20:21
* felipec checks		20:21
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* DocScrutinizer is checking number of inodes on his disk :-P		20:22
* ShadowJK would prefer /usr/local or /usr/pkg instead of mixing base system with addon software all in /usr/*		20:22
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: hmm, debatable	20:23
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ShadowJK	that way you could keep base on ubifs	20:24
DocScrutinizer	/usr/local usually is for locally build beta versions etc - rarely seen any binary public pkg installing there	20:24
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felipec	23k patches, 6 million lines of code	20:25
DocScrutinizer	anyway you for sure can do this, FHS is no law, it's a RFC which you can augment if you know what you're doing	20:25
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ShadowJK	yeah well, given how fucking lazy people are, it's the default place stuff goes when running ./configure for most things :P	20:25
ShadowJK	/usr/pkg is used by all the bsds iirc	20:26
DocScrutinizer	felipec: FFS! :-O	20:26
MNZ	felipec, why were you asking anyway?	20:26
felipec	MNZ: I want to switch development from beagleboard to an N900	20:27
mece	Alright. Horde fed and put to bed. yay!	20:27
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MNZ	felipec, and it doesn't boot, I assume.	20:28
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DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: nevertheless /usr is by definition a directory that MUST NOT be required to boot up the machine to single user	20:28
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: the whole and only purpose of /usr is to keep it on a separate drive that may fail and still system is maintainable by root via console	20:29
felipec	MNZ: doesn't look like that... on a MeeGo system	20:30
ShadowJK	well with the security framework in place user's nuking their os will be reduced somewhat I'd think :D	20:31
DocScrutinizer	I'll rip out security framework and feed it to those introducing it to linux	20:32
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DocScrutinizer	anyway, that's unrelated	20:33
DocScrutinizer	as "system can boot to single-user without /usr" means you're free to mount /usr later in boot process	20:34
frals	awesome, my gf broke fmms on her phone and now im guiding her in how to send me the log file over skype videochat...	20:34
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DocScrutinizer	the maintainability of a system with borked /usr is just one of the side effects of the definition "/usr can live on a separate drive"	20:35
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ShadowJK	I'm sure it was considered entirely irrelevant for n900, as / and /usr are on the same fs :)	20:36
DocScrutinizer	frals, you got a cute gf	20:36
mece	DocScrutinizer, What? Pics or it didn't happen!	20:36
SpeedEvil	frals: Why don't you have ssh setup? :)	20:36
frals	shes very proud she understood the 'cp' command.. after having a fit because it was called.. well, cp	20:36
DocScrutinizer	mece: eh??	20:37
ShadowJK	I hope /usr will be read-only in the future ;p	20:37
frals	SpeedEvil: i do, but i figured copying a file to mydocs and sending from desktop was easier than getting the ip from her	20:37
mece	DocScrutinizer, how else would you know she's cute?	20:37
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ShadowJK	with a rw /usr/pkg or something for addon pkgs	20:37
mece	frals, she really needs to install personal ip widget, or whatever it's called.	20:37
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ShadSEC2	Docscrutinizer, what would be the issues in having the base system as is, and mounting a bigger fs onto it using mini_fo?	20:38
frals	DocScrutinizer: yes i do ;)	20:38
DocScrutinizer	mece: won't help neither on WLAN with NAT nor on GPRS	20:38
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frals	fwiw it would help over gprs since her provides actually gives each device a proper ip without any nat/fw	20:39
DocScrutinizer	ShadSEC2: first: my lack to know what's mini_fo	20:39
ShadSEC2	similar to unionfs... extenvensively used on OpenWRT	20:40
DocScrutinizer	ShadSEC2: second: the obvious complications in doing things not the age old proven standard way	20:40
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ShadSEC2	simple, lightweight...	20:40
DocScrutinizer	frals: that's quite unusual	20:41
ShadSEC2	well, but it doesnt seem to be any perfect way yet, there is?	20:41
mece	DocScrutinizer, how does it not help on gprs?	20:41
DocScrutinizer	mece: see frals ^^^	20:41
frals	DocScrutinizer: yeah, tele2 sweden is awesome.. no limit on mms size either :D	20:42
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mece	saunalahti here and I have direct ip too. Very nice.	20:42
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DocScrutinizer	ShadSEC2: move /usr and /var to eMMC and you're fine (after cleaning up the mess that's system init and optification now)	20:43
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DocScrutinizer	ShadSEC2: there are some catches, e.g. system init using commands from /usr/(s)bin, which is clearly a (easy to fix) bug in system config	20:44
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DocScrutinizer	honestly I guess I could sanitize the whole thing with ~5 cmdlines	20:46
ShadSEC2	docscrutinizer, I havent checked what's currently on /usr from the base system.. but depending on that, it would mean moving those files to slower emmc	20:46
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DocScrutinizer	but next apt-get install would possibly break the whole system	20:46
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ShadSEC2	using the transparent union would still benefit read speed from binaries on ubifs	20:47
mece	did we kill diasporas servers?	20:47
DocScrutinizer	that's an extremly sophisticated approach for a trivial problem	20:47
mece	washington was kinda nice this morning. Around noon it started lagging, and now it's gone.	20:48
mece	did anyone here try it?	20:48
* GAN900 facepalms at Talk.		20:48
GAN900	bergie, apparently Neimen is a "he" now.	20:48
ShadSEC2	but an extremely easy approach to implement too	20:48
DocScrutinizer	ShadSEC2: just move all those files you need on boot or need fast access to, from /usr/bin to /bin (same for sbin) and task accomplished for that part	20:49
GAN900	s/Neimen/Neiman	20:49
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DocScrutinizer	ShadSEC2: uhuh, and how'd you handle updates of files living in "base system" /usr/bin ?	20:50
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ShadSEC2	Docscrutinizer, now that sounds much more complicated and prone to error... one of the beauty of the union approach is that you could always get rid of the overlay file and boot a perfectly clean new system	20:50
ShadSEC2	docscrutinizer, you mean a PR update or something?	20:51
DocScrutinizer	how'd you handle files that get modifications during mini_fo mounted, but those mods needed during next boot early when it's not yet ?	20:51
ShadSEC2	wtf have i done? lol	20:51
ShadowJK	boot to act_dead mode for updates :)	20:52
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ShadowJK	they're bicentennial events anyway ;D	20:52
DocScrutinizer	ShadSEC2: honestly, a botch over a botch invented to fix a botch isn't a smart solution ever	20:52
ShadSEC2	DocScrutinizer,mmm, it doesnt work that way.. either you boot with the overlay, or you boot with the original untouched os	20:53
DocScrutinizer	ShadSEC2: sorry you lost me	20:53
ShadSEC2	well, probably not, i am just asking... it works so well in openwrt...	20:53
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ShadSEC2	I mean that IF there are modifications to base files, they will be lost if you boot without the overlay	20:54
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DocScrutinizer	exactly, and you always boot without the overlay, as first and only thing bootloader passes to kernel is the rootfs	20:55
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ShadSEC2	probably that unaceptable	20:55
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DocScrutinizer	whenever init system is able to mount the overlay, it as well can mount a simple classical /usr partition	20:57
ShadSEC2	the idea is to boot with ubifs+overlay... always.. except IF you want to begin with a new clean system	20:57
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ShadSEC2	yes	20:57
ShadSEC2	but, there are advantages	20:57
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bergie	GAN900: I can understand that people are confused as we usually represent ourselves as individuals in Maemo circles :-) But yeah, it is a company... http://nemein.com/en/	20:57
ShadSEC2	1) the original base is always there, untouched	20:57
DocScrutinizer	ShadSEC2: so how do you patch nolo to make it tell kernel to mount a rootfs that's actually a unionfs?	20:58
DocScrutinizer	(while I really doubt kernel can do that anyway)	20:58
ShadSEC2	2) Not only you dont need to care about optifiying, you in fact dont need to care about some rogue program overfilling / with a log or something (Ie: fring... It was doing a huge log just in /)	20:59
DocScrutinizer	whatever, that's quite obviously a lot more complex than a /usr partition on eMMC	20:59
ShadSEC2	sorry for my ignorance but.. what nolo?	20:59
MNZ	NOkia LOader	20:59
ShadSEC2	it the bootloader or something?	20:59
ShadSEC2	mmmmm	21:00
ShadSEC2	So i guess it is closed and only boot from / ?	21:00
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DocScrutinizer	what's the root= parameter to pass to kernel so it mounts a mini_fo as rootfs? what patches in kernel are needed to teach it to do that?	21:02
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DocScrutinizer	I don't see the whole thing fly	21:03
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GAN900	bergie, at least 4 spellings in the thread, too.	21:03
GAN900	bergie, glad you saw it, anyway.	21:03
bergie	GAN900: if I were starting business now, I'd choose an easier name ;-)	21:05
ShadSEC2	docscrutinizer, let me look for it, it has been some time i dont play with that in openwrt	21:05
ShadSEC2	but if memory doesnt fail, i think it was probably doing part of the boot from real / and then doing a remount	21:06
ShadSEC2	better let me check...	21:06
DocScrutinizer51	ShadSEC2: that's exactly what I expected and answered above all the time. You never boot with mini_fo, you never know for sure if files are accessed old version before it is mounted later, you always can mount /usr same moment mini_fs is mounted	21:08
DocScrutinizer51	so mini_fs isn't really a simpler solution than a /usr partition	21:09
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ShadSEC2	yes, it boots from a squashfs (READ ONLY), later in the boot sequence mounts another partition and then call fopivot that presents / as the combination of the squashfs + overlay	21:10
ShadSEC2	docscrutinizer, yes	21:11
DocScrutinizer51	nice overkill for optification sanitising	21:11
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ShadSEC2	docscrutinizer, but the two advantages i said before are valuable i think	21:12
DocScrutinizer51	sure	21:12
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cheriff	has anyone had experience with kexec on the maemo kernel? How reliable has it been?	21:12
ShadSEC2	anyway, whatever the solution, one is needed	21:13
DocScrutinizer51	afaik it doesn't work at all	21:13
ShadSEC2	its incredible a simple package as screen isnt available even in extras-devel, to say just one example	21:14
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cheriff	DocScrutinizer51: ok thanks. I have a kernel with it enabled, and cross-compiler the user utils but could get it to do anything other than hang, and wasnt ure it ifs me or not :)	21:15
cheriff	cross compiled couldn't *sure <-- typing skills ftw	21:16
DocScrutinizer51	well apt-cache tells me there's kexec. So maybe the's obsolete info	21:17
GAN900	bergie, I'll admit to having to google the spelling once every few months or so. g	21:21
n900evil	ShadSEC2: it's in tools	21:21
ShadSEC2	yes	21:22
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ShadSEC2	but the point is it is not in extras-devel	21:22
ShadSEC2	and it is not optified at all	21:22
ShadSEC2	it works ok though	21:22
n900evil	well do it then!	21:22
toggles	Any packagers around? I had a repo setup and automated scripts that worked fine a month ago, now when I run the scripts I get "dpkg-checkbuilddeps: error: control file must have at least one binary package part"	21:22
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ShadSEC2	I did, but my program depends on screen	21:22
ShadSEC2	and anyways, its just an example	21:23
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ShadSEC2	of a basic program, that compiles straightforward, and it is not even availabe in extras-devel	21:24
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SpeedEvil	It's as simple as nobodies bothererd to upload it.	21:27
SpeedEvil	And package	21:27
RST38h	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=42357	21:28
toggles	damn.. fingered it out.. scratchbox needs a space before the Package line... doubleyouteeeff	21:28
RST38h	Freaking lemmings...	21:28
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ShadSEC2	yes, because with the current setup it is needed that someone installs the scratchbox, learn how to use it, how to package, and all that is because of the optifiying need	21:28
RST38h	"@rewt thats freeking great so I can use my 4GB Micro SD as 4GB of RAM!!!!"	21:29
GAN900	RST38h, the clear answer is: "Yes, yes you can."	21:30
DocScrutinizer51	muhahaha	21:30
RST38h	GAN: The clear answer is <facepalm>	21:31
MNZ	The clear answer is use an 80GB swap file over an NFS mounted partition	21:32
ShadowJK	they are better for sending messages through time	21:32
ShadowJK	MNZ, that's something I wanted to try :)	21:32
RST38h	perforated tape sounds like a better swap media	21:32
ShadowJK	Beyond a certain point of IO pressure, I think it would be faster	21:32
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ShadowJK	if the host was using a desktop class harddrive, or had plenty of ram even	21:32
MNZ	faster than uSD, yes	21:32
ShadowJK	or emmc	21:33
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RST38h	ShadowJK:compcache. compcache.	21:33
ShadowJK	not so sure if swap on nfs is deadlock safe though	21:33
ShadSEC2	Hey, dont laugh, but sometime I was doing swap onto a cifs mounted file on openwrt	21:33
SpeedEvil	I have swapped over wifi.	21:33
SpeedEvil	Worked well for me	21:33
ShadSEC2	it was like 10 times faster than swapping to sd	21:33
RST38h	no wonder...	21:33
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ShadSEC2	(the sd was driven using only three gpios, so it was REALLY SLOW in firs tplace)	21:35
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user_	muir	21:35
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user_	hallo	21:36
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RST38h	"The good news is that in 1995 we will have a good operating system and programming language; the bad news is that they will be Unix and C++."	22:26
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derf	"...and the code will be portable because it is written on top of a virus."	22:33
RST38h	the code will be written BY virii	22:38
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derf	Not in 1995.	22:39
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* GAN900 chuckles at the HDCP key		22:40
GAN900	It's the HD-DVD fiasco all over again.	22:40
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RST38h	Lawyers vs. Reality	22:41
RST38h	BTW, I am sure this will end with a police state, all to prevent you from stealing the latest Disney abomination	22:41
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GAN900	Not likely in the US.	22:44
GAN900	Things will break here before it gets to that point.	22:45
RST38h	Definitely likely in the US	22:45
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RST38h	But yes, that is one possibility	22:45
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MNZ	meh highly unproductive day, time for something productive, aka sleep	22:50
MNZ	night folks	22:50
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johnsq	Hi	22:51
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GAN900	RST38h, too many armed people not interested in putting up with shenanigans like that.	23:11
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GAN900	RST38h, far more than you would believe if your sample size is "US cities". ;)	23:11
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RST38h	http://gizmodo.com/5640898/this-is-how-angry-birds-would-look-on-blackberry	23:24
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lcuk	RST38h, :D awesome	23:28
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mc_teo`	so	23:33
mc_teo`	cross compiling	23:33
mc_teo`	i cant do it	23:33
lcuk	get angry first	23:33
E0x	heh	23:33
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mc_teo`	so you do know does native compiling on n900 have much overhead, cpu rape, etc	23:34
lcuk	sure	23:34
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lcuk	my apps compile from source on n900 in about 10 seconds	23:34
lcuk	thats c source	23:35
lcuk	takes longer as more libs and dependencies are needed	23:35
mc_teo`	and like additional libs, etc dont take up loads of rootfs and other space	23:35
lcuk	yes they sure do	23:35
lcuk	so keep things small and light	23:36
mc_teo`	thats what i wanted to avoid	23:36
lcuk	i just optified the include folder	23:36
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mc_teo`	did that help?	23:36
lcuk	but really a build of "build-essential" should be made to be optified - so gcc etc was also optified	23:37
lcuk	mc_teo`, i built on my n900 from day 1 with it	23:37
lcuk	i need to go back to doing that soon	23:37
mc_teo`	so it is optified, or should be?	23:37
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lcuk	no mc_teo`	23:37
mc_teo`	isnt there like a vm image somewhere with it all working?	23:38
lcuk	yes	23:38
lcuk	scratchbox	23:38
mc_teo`	i use windows	23:38
lcuk	if you have ubuntu its pretty much painless if networks are happy	23:38
lcuk	windows there is an out of date vmware image	23:39
mc_teo`	i can use ubuntu on vmware, if it makes much difference	23:39
lcuk	its good to get started with, but the scratchbox inside needs updating	23:39
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lcuk	anyway, i am sure someone else will show you where the oldish vmware image is, it seems theres a problem with a newer image being missing	23:40
lcuk	i tihnk someone said they were going to have a go at updating it	23:40
* lcuk goes n codes		23:40
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kerio	~optify	23:41
kerio	~optification	23:41
infobot	methinks optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs	23:41
kerio	~botsnack	23:41
infobot	kerio: thanks	23:41
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secyritas	~nokia	23:42
infobot	rumour has it, nokia is a cellphone company from Finland.	23:42
secyritas	:-)	23:42
secyritas	~finland	23:42
infobot	finland is, like, some bloody scandinavian icicle, or nice place to live in :}	23:42
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