IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2010-09-17

dotblankyou would loose the ability to measure jerk but I'm trying something basic00:00
DocScrutinizerfilter out data from noise? that's by definition impossible, except you'd know what data you expect00:00
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: with multiple measurments it's possible00:00
dotblankwell not really if you have a ceiling on the rate of change00:00
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: just you got no multiple measurements00:00
alteregoWell, almost finished my new config management stuff.00:00
ShadowJKI remember an early garmin gps unit with monochrome 128x128 pix display and no maps, when it thought you weren't moving anymore, it started averaging GPS positions to refine your position :)00:00
jacekowskiwell, 400Hz00:01
jacekowskithat should be good enough00:01
dotblank400hz is alot00:01
DocScrutinizeryes, and every single one has noise and data00:01
dotblankyou would only need like 50hz accurate00:01
jacekowskibut noise is random00:01
timeless_pidginShadowJK: cool00:01
jacekowskidata is constant in that short time frame00:01
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kerioDocScrutinizer: so we'll need an extra set of sensor for the n900 quadricopter to fly through moving hoops? :(00:01
dotblankjacekowski, predictably random?00:02
DocScrutinizerplease read the link, instead of asking me to explain to you once again00:02
JaffaX-Fade: Do you know if there's a web site featuring a JavaScript MediaWiki table editor? I get so bored doing big sets of meeting minutes using just the markup (since it's not very intuitive to my HTML-addled brain)00:02
jacekowskijust random00:02
ShadowJKkerio, yeah you want like 3 or 4 gyros too00:02
kerioaw :(00:02
jacekowskithink ntp00:02
kerioi'm talking about of course00:02
DocScrutinizernoise is noise00:03
ShadowJKkerio, something like
jacekowski100 readings of same value00:03
jacekowski+- random value00:03
jacekowskiwill work out as original value00:03
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keriojacekowski: depending on how big is the +-random value00:04
dotblankyea don't know...00:04
Biroohi every body00:04
Biroois there anyone can help me plz??00:04
ShadowJKkerio, so basically when he threw the quadcopter it was in free fell more or less, accelerometers reading 0,0,0.. it needs the gyros to know what direction it's pointing in00:04
timeless_pidginDoc: what's my next number? :)00:05
dotblankShadowJK, yea I can see that being a problem00:05
DocScrutinizererr, 24?00:05
DocScrutinizerdunno, timeless_pidgin00:05
* timeless_pidgin kicks pidgin for having huge fonts and *tiny* smilies00:05
hardakerBiroo: we won't know till ya explain the problem :-)00:05
dotblankShadowJK, I guess if you remembered all the rotations on the object before you through it and during flight untill freefall you could do it but this is pushing the accuracy way way too far00:06
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timeless_pidgin24. Calendars should properly encode all day events so that when you travel two hours west your "christmas eve day event" doesn't start on December 23rd at 10pm ...00:06
BirooI have a big problem with my Nokia N90000:06
ShapeshifterBiroo: oh noes00:06
th3hateBiroo, ask already00:07
timeless_pidginBiroo: but your n900 is small, how can you have a big problem?00:07
ShadowJKdotblank: besides, if your axis of rotation goes through the accelerometer it's not going to notice anything00:07
hardakerbig things come in small packages :-)00:07
BirooI switch it off00:07
Shapeshifterand the screen goes black?00:07
Birooand try to switch it on ... nothing happened00:07
dotblankShadowJK, ok good point .. don't through in a such a way....00:08
BirooI try to do flasher for it... nothing happend00:08
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timeless_pidginBiroo: take out the battery00:08
timeless_pidginPlug the n900 into a wall charger.00:08
hardakerBiroo: you can't flash unless you at least can get it to boot at all.  Also, remember you have to hold in the power button for 2-3 seconds before it starts booting.00:08
timeless_pidginPlug the wall charger into a live outlet00:08
DocScrutinizerinsert battery again :-P00:08
jacekowskiyeah, i've just tried it00:08
hardaker(but remove the battery is good)00:08
timeless_pidginPut the battery back in00:09
timeless_pidginDo you see a small light in the corner of the n900?00:09
ShapeshifterI see the light, closing in on me D:00:09
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tripzerodont go to the light!00:09
Shapeshiftertoo late!00:10
ShadowJKdotblank, so like theoretically if accelerometer was 100% accurate the dual accelerometer setup like in freerunner, you could see less acc on one meter and more on the other as a sign of rotation00:10
timeless_pidginIdeally the screen should flash a bit and then the light should glow in some pattern...00:10
jacekowskiassuming that noise is 10% of value00:10
dotblankShadowJK, yea also note there will be centrifugal force00:10
jacekowskiyou would need 10 samples to get it under 2%00:10
th3hateBiroo, are you sure the micro usb port isn't broken?00:10
Biroothe Nokia word just shown with no light and a small vibration00:11
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timeless_pidginBiroo: that means the usb connection works.00:11
Birooyes I already charge it00:11
DocScrutinizerBiroo: so what's the problem. Device booting to Nolo just fine00:11
jacekowski20 samples get it down to ~1.3%00:11
th3hateBiroo, did it enter a reboot loop?00:11
timeless_pidginBiroo: wait a bit, press and hold the power key...00:11
jacekowskiso it's possible to do that stuff with accelerometer00:12
ShadowJKoh and also: screw quadcopters, you want single rotors for maximum potential carnage: (this is a human pilot)00:12
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Birooa reboot loop00:12
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: this only applies for constant input value during tha sampling window00:12
dotblankjacekowski, well proving the increased polling rate actually have the device giving new values.. not repeated ones00:12
th3hateBiroo, have you tried to flash it with maemo flasher?00:12
timeless_pidginBiroo: removing the battery clears the act-dead bit00:12
Birooand there is the problem00:12
timeless_pidginIt should be possible for you to try to flash it now...00:12
jacekowskiassuming that noise is 100% of value00:12
jacekowski10 samples get it down to 3%00:13
th3hateBiroo, what happens when you try to flash it?00:13
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: with 400Hz you can assume that it's constantish00:13
th3hateyou get "waiting for a suitable device"?00:13
* Shapeshifter loves devices where you stick some pointy object into a hole and it's like brand new from the factory :D00:13
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: and reject any values that are too far away from expected value00:13
dotblankjacekowski, yea power limit it..00:13
Biroothe problem here that when I connect it with the USB during the flasher... The Usb shape in the corner of the screen doesn't shown00:14
jacekowskiand assume that it has changed too much to sample it00:14
Birooand the flasher stop at ... waiting for a suitable devic00:14
th3hateBiroo, did you hold the U button while plugging it?00:14
timeless_pidginBiroo: did you try holding 'u' when you turned it on?00:14
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lcukShapeshifter, a mans reason for living is to stick some pointy object into a hole and create something brand new from the factory00:14
Biroobut nothing happened00:15
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jacekowskiBiroo: try it on linux00:15
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: if it were that simple, don't you think we'd see better dead reconing on all tomtom and garmin navis?00:15
jacekowskiBiroo: check if windows sees device00:15
Birooand I try to flash it with Linux system .. and also the same problem00:15
crashanddieBiroo: do you have admin rights?00:15
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Shapeshifterlcuk: heh.00:15
MNZ++ on the PEBKAC00:16
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: my tomtom doesn't have accelerometer00:16
* ShadowJK blames not-full battery00:16
th3hateBiroo, you tried to flash it on a 32Bit linux distro?00:16
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: guess why00:16
Birooyes 32 bit00:16
jacekowskiwell, it's a GPS00:16
alteregoAlmost ready to merge in my new generic config management stuff into my gps app :)00:16
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jacekowskiit doesn't need anything else for 99.9% of time00:16
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jacekowskii don't go trough tunnels very often00:16
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th3hateBiroo, so basically nothing happens when you plug in the usb holding U ?00:16
jacekowskiand i never saw a junction in a tunnel00:17
crashanddiejacekowski: the accelerometer is used in turns as well, AFAIK00:17
Biroonothing.. just a reboot loop with no lights and a small vibration00:17
crashanddiedead battery00:17
crashanddieallow the battery to charge00:17
th3hateuhh.. bricked device?00:17
dotblankI feel like a polling rate at 400 hz with filters to remove noise could give a fairly accurate reading00:17
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ShadowJKI don't think it gets a net charge whilst reboot-looping :P00:18
crashanddienot on the computer, but on the power socket it ought to00:18
ShadowJKjacekowski, see this is why I'm not convinced press u halts nolo if battery is low :-)00:18
jacekowskiwell, hmm00:19
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hardakerIf the battery is totally dead I've certainly seen it not be willing to boot until plugged in for a while.00:19
jacekowskithere is workaround for nolo00:19
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: you're boring me - come up with a POC simply integrating (and possibly filtering sophistacatedly) the g-meter data, and I'll show you it thinks it's standing still while actually I never stoped moving after I shaked it arounf for 10s00:19
dotblankDocScrutinizer, :( but shaking it invokes jerk... I want to start basic and do simple acceleration00:19
ShadowJKhardaker, this is not the issue now00:20
dotblankDocScrutinizer, not very applicable00:20
hardakerShadowJK: gotcha.00:20
dotblankDocScrutinizer, but I'd think it would be cool regardless00:20
ShadowJKhardaker, it's booting. It just boots into dead OS, and reboots00:20
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: when you want to measure distance, you won't go around shaking the device00:20
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dotblankShapeshifter, well if your in a car it will shake00:21
DocScrutinizerdotblank: you've read that pretty comprehensive article I liked you to?00:21
dotblankvery much so00:21
dotblankDocScrutinizer, yes I did00:21
Shapeshifterdotblank: in your car you'll be using GPS. I thought you wanted it for indoor use00:21
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dotblankShapeshifter, yea.. I guess.. it could only amount to a fancy toy that would work only in a very specific physical system00:22
Shapeshifterdotblank: yeah. like GPSD00:22
Shapeshifterstill very useful.00:23
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dotblank"For interactive use. High-pass filtering the accelerometer with a bandwidth of 10Hz - you can't filter it much more than that or you lose important 'wobbles'"00:24
dotblankat 10hz00:24
dotblankyea I can see it not being very good00:24
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DocScrutinizerErrors build up, but it's not bad for short periods, 1cm/s^2 of error, with a car going in a straight line at 20m/s, takes a bit over a minute to move from a true direction of northeast - say, to a false direction of northnortheast. (the position is off after this period by a hundred metres or two)00:30
DocScrutinizerthis scales nicely00:30
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alteregoThe particle effect when destroying a window from the dashboard, that's in hildon-desktop right?00:31
DocScrutinizerif you're moving with 2m/s your pos is off by at least 20m after 1 min00:31
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alteregoI was thinking, I'd quite like to replace that with a poof of smoke :)00:31
DocScrutinizerbut even if you're not moving at all, your pos will drift00:32
alteregoNo, a poof :P00:32
crashanddie"a poof of smoke" <-- is that a new way of saying "fag"?00:32
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crashanddie"Greek police charged two U.S. tourists with desecrating the dead on Thursday after they found six human skulls in their hand luggage at Athens international airport, a police official said."00:33
* crashanddie classifies that as "WTF were they thinking?"00:34
DocScrutinizerdotblank: and all that numbers in that article are based on a g-meter 20 times better than the one we got in N90000:34
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ioanis there a trial version of sygic 10 for USA?00:35
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mecealterego, columbus looks really nice. The "options" button does nothing. It's supposed to be like that currently, right?00:36
keriocrashanddie: it reminds me of that 4chan thread00:36
alteregomece: not currently no, on my versions the options button has all sorts of nice options ;)00:36
keriothe guy with the skull00:36
alteregomece: I'll upload it hopefully tomorrow00:36
alteregoI've just finished what I wanted to finish before my release into -devel00:37
alteregomece: that executable only has the one display I believe, and I only uploaded it to help a couple of us reverse engineer the binary GPS protocol00:38
meceyep, just the one display. Still useful :D00:38
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alteregoIn my version both the compasses have a nice smooth scrolling action too ;)00:39
crashanddie"Love consists in overestimating the differences between one woman and another."00:39
mecenice to see some much needed smoothness on maemo.00:40
mececrashanddie, how poetic.00:40
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alteregomece: it was a bit of an unecessary modification but:
alteregoI just wanted to make my configuration system easier.00:43
alteregoTo program, and my application is based around a plugin system, and each plugin needs to register configuration options when they initialize.00:43
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mecealterego, hey that's pretty nifty.00:44
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alteregoIt's quite neat I thought, you have a ConfigManager, which you describe your apps configuration model to, then you create my special "OptionsDialog" which talks to the configuration manager to display a nice options dialog.00:45
alteregoI guess it's kind of semantic in some ways00:45
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meceI wish I was good at c++. I just don't have time with the nitpicking these days, and I don't have the skills to get it right on the first try :/00:46
alteregoWell, I say it was unecessary, but in reality my config stuff was all over the place and was quickly becoming unmanagable.00:47
alteregoWell, I'm not even sure I'm that good at C++ tbh :)00:47
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alteregoAnd I wouldn't worry about getting it right the first time.00:47
mecelucky for me there's python, qtquick and other lazyman's methods.00:47
alteregoOr the second, third, forth, maybe even never ;)00:47
alteregoIt's best to be agile and pragmatic in my opinion, though having a rough design is always a good idea.00:48
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meceahemm.. que? WeTab can run android apps?00:49
alteregomece: source?00:50
mecethat's a bold claim, I must say.00:50
mecethen again why not.00:50
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dotblankmy hopes have been dashed... by DocScrutinizer  :(01:03
dotblankI'll have to go back to figuring out lcuk's videos01:05
lcukdotblank, which bit cant you figure out01:06
DocScrutinizer51dotblank: I'd think you got better chances to measure distances by using some acousic radar principle01:07
Shapeshifteror laz0rs01:08
Shapeshifterand the camera01:08
DocScrutinizer51yeah but N900 has no laz0rs01:08
alteregoLet me guess, another dumfounded enquirer into the reverse AR ?01:08
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer51: well of course you need the n900 in one place and the light in some other place. Imagine a replacement stylus that is a laz0r01:09
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Shapeshifterthe n900 needs lasers.01:10
alteregoHeh, that would have to me a large stylus to fit the energy source :P01:10
Shapeshifterwhy didn't I think of it earlier01:10
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Shapeshifteralterego: maybe stack a couple of these?
Shapeshifterwell it would be a long way until the N900 death star...01:14
lcukalterego, a youtuber sussed it!01:14
lcukso I posted saying where to download it from to try themselves01:15
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alteregoWow, didn't realize Nintendo were so ungreen01:42
alteregoI guess it's because they're in china01:43
JaffaMeeting minutes from earlier:
* Jaffa beds01:46
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kwtmHi. Is there a reason "less" (the enhanced version of cmd-line util "more") is "extras-devel" rather than "extras-testing" or even "extras"?  Is it something technical like "the author should be respond to email quickly" or should I be wary of installing it on my N900?01:55
MNZkwtm, just how much of a danger do you think less can be?01:56
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kwtmI don't know, but on the other hand I didn't realize that busybox could crash my N900 and make me have to return it to the store.01:56
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alteregounfortunately extras isn't exactly the repository it should be.01:56
kwtmI think the question is, how much of a danger do people think "less" can be that they didn't vote it up to extras-testing?01:57
alteregoIt was probably never promoted01:57
MNZbusybox 'crashed' your N900?? Can you tell us more?01:57
kwtmMNZ: I would love to, but first here's a riddle:01:57
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wmaronekwtm: perhaps because very few people use "less" and even fewer people go and upvote it in the Garage01:58
kwtmWhat software, present on the N900 by default, will be affected by a one-line text file (not present on the N900 by default), so that in the presence of this text file, the N900 cannot boot up properly and must be reflashed?01:58
kwtmwmarone: Interesting.  If that's the reason, then that's fine.  I thought everyone would be using "less" so I wanted to make sure it had no problems.01:59
kwtmwmarone: I guess I'm addicted enough to the command-line interface that I really don't want to use "more" more than I have to.01:59
MNZkwtm, I've heard of this.... but darn if I can remember01:59
kwtmMNZ: The answer is: "ash" (aka busybox).01:59
MNZoh... ohhhhh XD01:59
alteregoashis a symlink to the busybox executable.02:00
wmaronekwtm: I suspect a large percentage of the N900 user base actually doesn't use the command line02:00
kwtmMNZ: The one-line text file is ~/.profile; if it references a non-existent file, then the startup scripts cause an error that is unrecoverable.02:00
alteregotbh, you could get rid of one of a 100 files and the N900 would not boot.02:00
kwtmalterego: Correct, but to add your own one-line text file and make it not boot?  This one-liner is in your home directory, I should add --not any system directory.02:00
kwtmOkay, so if no one knows of any problems with "less" I'll just go ahead and use it.02:01
alteregoYeah, when I heard about .profile killing N900's I felt a little scared.02:01
kwtmAlways a pleasure to ask for help from those with more expertise and experience.02:01
* MNZ is hurt :'(02:01
alteregoHrm, I'm actually feeling kind of hungry.02:02
kwtmalterego: I suspect there's some script that says "If ash returns a non-zero exit value, trigger the error-correcting script! ... which runs on, er, ash.  Yeah."02:02
alteregoI might make some eggs02:02
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alteregoYeah, I'm gonna have a fried egg sammich02:02
kwtmWhile I'm here, anyone have problems with Gnumeric on N900 (in extras-devel)?  If no, I'll install that, too.02:02
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asjI would guess the UI hasn't been ported...02:06
kwtmwmarone: I guess.  I use the N900 as a "smartphone" a lot and use the GUI that way, but I also have 3 X-Terms open with two instances of vim going.  Hmm...02:08
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jogaI mostly have terminal and browser windows open02:09
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alteregokwtm: hiow do you mean "like a smartphone" ? You mean you use it to make calls?02:10
alteregoWhat makes a smartphone a smartphone anyway?02:10
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jogait's something you don't call dumb all the time :)02:10
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alteregoUrgh, I really don't like that "I can't believe it's not butter" crap.02:12
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SpeedEvildotblank: on accel - search openmoko wiki "accelerometer fundamentals"02:22
dotblankSpeedEvil, I think DocScrutinizer put enough doubt in it for me to try anything02:24
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SpeedEvilMy connection fell over.02:26
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mecehow the hell do I debug javascript stuff that I use for qml??02:32
alteregoIf you run qmlviewer from the console, you have debug output.02:33
alteregoIf you run it from the application menu, you can access the debug log from the menu.02:33
mecealterego, how do I print something from the javascript file to console? I'm running it from qtcreator02:33
alteregoLet me check.02:34
meceprint. Who knew?02:34
meceI had my test print behind an "if" that never succeeded02:34
* mece bonks himself02:34
alteregoOh yeah, that was it :)02:35
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alteregoI noticed something mighty annoying about QML actually,02:44
alteregowith an opengl backend you're limited to the size of an "imaage" element.02:45
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alteregoI suppose I should sumbit a bug report or something.02:45
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MohammadAG51or use a larger image :P02:46
alteregoErm, you mean smaller.02:46
alteregoIt's a large image that screws up, because there's not enough memory for the texture in opengles.02:46
alteregoAt least that's my guess ;)02:46
MohammadAG51then file a bug02:47
mecealterego, hmm.. how do I do a for loop?02:47
alteregofor( = 0; i < 10; i ++) {}02:48
alteregourgh, well, you know, the normal way :P02:48
alteregoAre you trying to programatically generate qml elements from javascript?02:49
meceI'm trying to do a for loop in qml02:49
mecealterego, but that would be the alternative02:49
alteregoOh, well, it's declarative, you can't really.02:49
alteregoWhat does the loop do? Well, what is it supposed to do?02:50
mecealterego, display a couple of hundred png's02:50
alteregoRight, so you are trying to generate qml elements programatically then ;)02:51
alteregomece: this might help:
mecealterego, ah yesh. thanks.02:53
alteregomece: and this:
mecealterego, yeah. That's exactly what I needed. Thanks!02:55
alteregoNo problem :)02:57
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alteregoI've browsed through all the QML documentation so even though I don't know everything off-by-heart, I have a good idea where stuff is ;)02:57
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pigeonon the n900, is there some way i can configure a script or a program to run when it (or X) starts up, as a user? (like, not /etc/init.d/ or /etc/event.d/)04:05
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asjpigeon: what's wrong with init.d? you can use the alarmd04:18
pigeonnothing, i thought if there's a non-root way then i'll do that.04:18
asjalarmd then04:18
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SpeedEvilpigeon: There is a stupid hack.04:25
SpeedEvilpigeon: Install queen-beecon04:25
SpeedEvilpigeon: Set one to run on start04:25
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GNUtoo|laptophow can I remove multiboot05:11
GNUtoo|laptopI'd like to kexec instead05:11
GNUtoo|laptopwith kernel-power05:11
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GNUtoo|laptopok I think multiboot is gone, I don't know how I did it tough05:27
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GNUtoo|laptopah no05:29
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GNUtoo|laptopah it seem that kernel-power is booting now05:30
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luke-jrso how can I get my N900 to share its GPS? :p05:49
luke-jrover BT05:49
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SpeedEvilyou'd need a NMEA source05:54
SpeedEvilthen to configure a rfcomm05:55
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GNUtoo|laptopn900 doesn't have NMEA right?06:04
prontocorrect, the n900 does not have cookies06:04
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SpeedEvilGNUtoo|laptop: not natively - there are some people doing it though06:08
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Macerhm. new nitdroid06:57
Macerwonder if the modem support is in it06:57
luke-jrI would presume so06:59
luke-jrmaybe even my GPS code06:59
Macerthat would be neet. working modem with voice calling or data only?07:00
Maceri know they were having problems with the modem's audio07:00
luke-jrno idea07:00
luke-jrvoice calling to me means SIP07:00
MacerHAHA... fair point07:00
Macerwell i hardly ever use actual cell phone calling but you never know07:00
Maceri'm installing it now so i guess i'll see in a minute07:01
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Macernew splash too huh? neet07:06
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Macerhm. i have a signal bar at the top :) but no 3G symbol07:07
Macerhm. it's running on edge07:08
Macerdoesn't seem to be working tho07:10
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luke-jrMacer: probably your fault07:15
luke-jrbtw my desktop monitor is dead :(07:15
luke-jrso I have to use this lame mac07:15
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Macercan't seem to get the APNs to work07:41
DocScrutinizer51jacekowski: ???: sorry, have to say NOLO on 'U' definitely does NOT load or consume any energy from USB, on a relatively full battery. So it actually DIScharges07:41
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Maceri try adding one and setting hte tmob info but after trying to save it .. it just sort of disappears07:41
Macereiting the mnc seems to break it07:44
DocScrutinizer51jacekowski: au contraire I guess holding device in 'u' is a way to get beyond sane discharge limit07:44
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slonopotamusis apt-cache search just broken?07:47
slonopotamus i can only understand two of matches (openntpd and python-twisted-news [because it has nntp in description])07:50
slonopotamuss/ of //07:50
infobotslonopotamus meant: i can only understand twomatches (openntpd and python-twisted-news [because it has nntp in description])07:50
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DocScrutinizerslonopotamus: it seems to match weird things as well, maybe install scripts or dunno what08:00
slonopotamusDocScrutinizer: from user POV it's broken.08:01
DocScrutinizer51file a ticket upstream08:03
DocScrutinizer51I had similar thing one time08:03
slonopotamusDocScrutinizer51: already talking to them. i hoped i'm doing smth wrong :)08:04
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kwtmmorning, Crossfade.09:00
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`Francesca_Lucchhey guys is there an mp3 tagger for n90009:07
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Corsac`Francesca_Lucch: MussOrgSky09:09
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DocScrutinizeraiui council elections are open since yesterday?09:37
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merlin1991morning Doc09:38
DocScrutinizermo merlin199109:38
DocScrutinizerI'd like to know how many days *after* elections are opened (even closed?) it's supposed the tokens/balots are sent to the last member who would have been allowed to vote09:40
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merlin1991hm I have 3 karma on from activity in "groups" wtf? I don't remember doing anything :D09:44
DocScrutinizerfrom a mail I kindly got a forward: >>Voting will run from September 16th 00:00 UTC until September 22 2010, 23:59 UTC.<<  Mail sent to original addressee: 2010-09-16 10:14   -  me missing any mail, and my calendar showing me it's 17th of September09:44
DocScrutinizerX-Fade: ^^^ ?09:46
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: Your words don't make sense, please rephrase?09:46
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DocScrutinizerelections opened since yesterday, some others got mail with token after(!) elections opened, I'm still missing token to vote. How's this gong to be sorted?09:48
toggles_wDocScrutinizer: I'll sell you mine09:48
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: Do you have enough karma?09:48
DocScrutinizerI'd guess 364 is enough?09:48
X-FadeYes, it should.09:49
X-FadeEverybody got mailed yesterday.09:49
X-FadeSo if you didn't get yours, you should ping dneary.09:49
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DocScrutinizerisn't that odd to send out tokens *after* election is opened?09:50
X-FadeHe can look up your token or resend it.09:50
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: Details. What is a few hours on a week.09:50
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DocScrutinizeras you see in my case, there's good reason to send such mails out with good advance in time, so all possible issues can get sorted until election period STARTS09:51
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DocScrutinizera lot of community members might not even have noticed about council elections, and now have to *start* considering what's all that about and what they're going to do09:52
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DocScrutinizerhell not even I knew about elections opened yesterday, until this morning some guy asked me what's this mail he got is all about and what he shall do now09:56
DocScrutinizerI'd honestly suggest to postpone closing of elections by one week09:57
DocScrutinizerand make damn sure those mails *really* got out and delivered09:58
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DocScrutinizerall of them09:59
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DocScrutinizerafter running the mail template thru several spam filters to make sure it won't trigger10:01
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DocScrutinizeralso making sure it's not a fsckdup Nokia "from:" addr which is known to make postmasters moan and swear and trigger greylisting or sth, due to borked header details (don't ask me for details, as I am no postmaster and you don't want me to quote the swearword my postmaster uttered when I asked him why Nokia mail never gets thru)10:04
ShadikkaI might actually be interested to hear the words, just out of... academic interest.10:05
DocScrutinizer(and no, this can't be the reason my mail is missing, Nokia is on the whitelist now)10:05
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johnxpostmasters filter on 'from:' at their own peril10:05
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johnxalso: mail is totally *&#$ed up as a protocol in general10:06
DocScrutinizerit's not from, it's some reverse DNS lookup that failed10:06
johnxbut a reverse lookup fail of the domain in the 'from:'? or a reverse lookup fail in one of the hosts that sent it?10:07
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DocScrutinizerI'm not a postmaster, and I didn't ask for all the gory details10:08
DocScrutinizerand for the records: my postmaster started with "FUCK! those bloody idiots..."10:09
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lollooI have comic widget ver 0.410:17
lolloobut it doesnt how me the latest strip10:18
lollooit shows me the start of 201010:18
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lolloohow can I fix that?10:18
crashanddiecomic widget?10:18
crashanddieit shows you the latest jokes from Eddie Murphy?10:19
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DocScrutinizer51balmer rap as comic strip :-P10:20
lolloodilbert strip10:20
lolloobut doesn't take me to latest10:21
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lolloowhy comic widget doest show me latest one?10:22
lollooit shows me 1 year old strips10:22
DocScrutinizer51lolloo: we all heard you10:22
* merlin1991 wants an xkcd widget :)10:22
Sceltincluding title10:23
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lollooI love comic strips10:27
lollooI love comic widget for n90010:27
lolloocomic widget... mmm10:27
lolloowhy doesn't it show me last strip by date10:27
lolloommm maybe something missing10:27
lolloocomic strip widget is awesome10:28
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lollooall comics imcluded10:28
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lolloommm am looking at dilbert comic strips10:28
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lolloousing comic widget on my n90010:28
lolloowhy wouldn't it show me latest dilbert comic strip?10:29
lolloommm I wounder why it wouldn't show me last strip10:29
lollooof dilbert...10:29
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FIQ|n900interesting... uhm.. song?10:29
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lolloocomic strip10:31
lolloodilbert comic strip is awesome10:31
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lollooI am looking at it using comic widget10:32
lollooon my N90010:32
lollooincluding other comics10:32
FIQ|n900i'm pretty sure you said that before10:32
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lolloolike pc and pixel comic strip10:32
lollooand many others10:32
lollooit uploads automatically from site10:33
lollooand bring it to your fone10:33
lollooon desktop10:33
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lolloothere is a griffiti comic strip too10:34
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lollooit awesome10:34
lolloocheck it out10:34
lolloofunny as hell10:34
* FIQ|n900 afk10:34
* lolloo is having fun.10:34
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lolloowhats the best themme for my N900?10:44
merlin1991the one you personally like?10:44
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lollooyes sir10:44
lollooany recommendation?10:44
psycho_oreostheme = tastes10:44
lollooI want a theme that changes the all icons10:45
merlin1991psycho_oreos, I kinda tried to say that :D10:45
lollooand even motions in menu10:45
lolloowhatever give me your recommendation please10:45
lolloogive give10:46
T-Comerlin1991, I have Okuda, which I bet, will share opinions :)10:46
psycho_oreosmerlin1991, hehe, too bad I beat you to the buzzer :)10:46
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lollooI have D-theme smooth blue10:46
JaffaMorning, all10:47
lolloobut it doesnt convert everything10:47
T-CoSorry, I meant lolloo ^^^10:47
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oraclemaemo is a nokia right?10:47
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oraclewhat about the booklet10:47
oraclewho has a booklet10:47
T-Cololloo, Humanity changes most of the icons10:47
lollooI will try your recommendation, T-Co10:47
merlin1991I'm using the nokia n-series theme :P10:47
lollooHumanity is in repo, right?10:48
T-CoI think so. At least in extras-devel10:48
psycho_oreosI use the default theme, tried that dark theme and I didn't like it one bit (black and white).. the use of greyscale colouring I like10:48
lollooT-Co, may I recommend for you?10:49
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T-Cololloo, Shoot10:49
lollootry blue-sky10:49
lolloochanges Icons and menu motion too!10:49
meceanyone wandered in the ways of QML around?10:50
T-CoMaybe some day, I'm now enjoying the retro-feel of Okuda10:50
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* lolloo is going to check Okuda theme10:50
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T-CoI really enjou the sounds in that theme.10:51
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T-CoI should find ringtones and im tones to go with it,10:52
lolloowow it has sounds! omg10:52
lolloowow it has sounds! omg10:52
lolloooops hehehe10:52
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lollooT-Co, where did you get Okuda theme from? couldnt find it in repo.10:54
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T-Cololloo, I think it's from extras-devel. Do you have that catalogue enabled?10:56
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lollooYes I think so,10:57
lolloowill try googling for it. no worries10:57
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lolloohere you go11:01
lollooawesome right T-Co ?11:03
psycho_oreoslooks like pacman's theme11:04
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DocScrutinizer51Jaffa: please read my rant on backscroll (100min ago)11:05
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parrot42hello, is there a way to see the velocity/bearing in Qt Simulator when simulating for the N900 device?11:06
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JaffaDocScrutinizer51: They're all supposed to be sent at the same time.11:21
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Jaffadneary: X-Fade: sounds like there may be mail queue blockage or something?11:25
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dnearyJaffa, I don't know what the issue is. I have a few people asking me for tokens.11:26
dnearyI got email fine, personally11:26
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Jaffadneary: Ditto.11:26
X-FadeMail host is not correct, so some providers will bounce when they are more strict.11:27
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MNZgood morning #maemo11:32
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ieatlintman, the more i look into meego, the crappier it seems11:36
lolloomaemo FTW11:37
ieatlintthere are a handful of things that actually look interesting, but the meego site is so crappy11:37
StskeepsMNZ: you highlighted me yesterday? (was asleep, sorry)11:37
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ieatlintwant to develop for meego handsets? sure, but only with qemu, and btw you need a nokia n900 in order to get the image ...11:38
Stskeepsieatlint: we've actually fixed that problem ow11:39
Stskeepsnolo gp is redistributable and we had the gles test running on the qemu image11:39
ieatlintwant to develop for a meego netbook? well, once again, pretty much just linux... and you can either install it on a netbook, do a chroot environment that intel tells me requires the host machine have an intel gma, or use virtualbox -- but oh, btw, if you use virtualbox, you can't actually use the meego ui11:39
ieatlintjust twm11:39
Stskeepswe're not idiots, we do see those kind of problems11:39
ieatlintno, it's not fixed11:40
Stskeepsok, it's fixed but not released.11:40
ieatlintthanks? :P11:40
MNZStskeeps, nvm :) was just commenting on the state of meego11:40
Stskeepsieatlint: the chroot issue (atom) i fully agree with.. the host machine being intel gma is a stupid phrasing, technically you can drop in your own libGL11:41
Stskeepspeople already had meego running on nvidia, so11:41
ieatlintyeah, i just spent the past 3 days at meego events being run by intel11:41
StskeepsMNZ: i don't personally share GAN's opinions - how's your kernel work going?11:42
Stskeepsieatlint: ah, my condolences11:42
ieatlintnot too impressed..11:42
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ieatlintStskeeps: eh, open bar11:42
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Stskeepsah, that always helps11:42
dnearyJaffa: We're looking into it with X-Fade11:42
floriangood morning11:42
Stskeepsieatlint: most people would be developing using qt creator and MADDE though and qt simulator11:42
ieatlintthey violated the gpl too11:42
ieatlinthanded out usb flash drives with meego images on them11:43
ieatlintno source :P11:43
dnearyIt appears that the mail headers were showing a funny Return-path, and some mailers were rejecting it because of that11:43
Stskeepsieatlint: well, you can do a written request.. can't recall how that part sounds again11:43
MNZStskeeps, well meego folk are confusing, no offense :P but I'm staying with maemo for a while, however futile that may seem.11:43
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ieatlinti'm half tempted, but then i remember i'm trying to not be that asshole11:43
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MNZStskeeps, the kernel work is pretty much over, a GUI is needed for the EQ though and machine-level drivers are needed to make use of the filter on each specific machine (so for example on n900 we use it for speaker protection, etc)11:45
MNZWhich reminds me, is meego using PA as well?11:45
StskeepsMNZ: i think there's a lot of different opinions and a lot of different people who people are unsure of where they are in charge of, makes discussions frustrating (even for someone working on the project). if we ignore the meego part completely, we have audio experts from n900 kernel in #meego-arm and kernel maintainers, so could be cool to hear about your work11:45
Stskeepsyes, we are - no other way when it comes to cmtspeech11:46
StskeepsMNZ: we kinda have to work with upstream linux kernel, the meego part is 'just' packaging11:46
Jaffadneary: Cool11:46
MNZStskeeps, I understand. Just another distro11:47
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Stskeepswe would be interested in speaker protection of the sole reason the current one is closed source, to my knowlege.11:47
Jaffadneary: Yeah, I saw that as the Sender and thought it was some CDN thing11:47
pexiany good source for unofficial qtwrt device api? for example, how networking is accessible11:48
Jaffadneary: Presumably the logs can be grepped to get the ones rejected and then resend (and/or regenerate)?11:48
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RST38hStskeeps: AFAIK the current speaker protection is simply a frequency filter11:48
MNZStskeeps, I was planning to push to get this into upstream, but I wanted to make sure it's pretty clean first, and there are still some changes to make11:48
StskeepsMNZ: :nod: if you want reviews, we're here :)11:48
X-FadeJaffa: That is not possible as it bypassed the mailer and sent directly to the smarthost.11:48
MNZRST38h, yeah it's a very simple filter.11:48
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X-FadeJaffa: So a gentle "Reminder" mailing would probably be the best solution.11:49
MNZI dumped sine wave sweep from 500hz to 0 into PA and checked out the output. I could easily replicate the filter using the audio codec's features11:49
Stskeepsso it sits on top of the current audio codec/driver for n900?11:50
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MNZStskeeps, the audio codec does the register setting and all that. How/what you use the filter for depends on the 'machine' driver (alsa SoC drivers are 3 parts, codec -> platform -> machine)11:51
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MNZso write now I use the n900 driver (rx51.c) to set the filter up for speaker protection and turn it on automatically if speaker output starts11:51
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infobotMNZ meant: so right now I use the n900 driver (rx51.c) to set the filter up for speaker protection and turn it on automatically if speaker output starts11:52
Stskeepswe have jarkko nikula / jhnikula sitting in #meego-arm and i think he was very involved with the audio driver in fremantle program and now meego/n90011:52
MNZyeah, I've seen his signature in a lot of places :D11:52
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dnearyJaffa, Not really11:54
MNZStskeeps, my main aim though is getting rid of PA, and I *think* it's possible, though not that easy, and will save a whole bunch of CPU/power. Problem is, I think a lot of people disagree with that11:54
dnearyBecause they're not being rejected in Maemo11:54
dnearyI'm going to re-send the lot with a "reminder".11:55
StskeepsMNZ: i think PA is here to stay, cos meego works on multiple devices11:55
StskeepsMNZ: but if anything can be offloaded to codecs this is obviously good11:55
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X-FadeMNZ: Also think of audio routing for BT etc.11:56
MNZX-Fade, quite frankly I haven't looked into that at all yet. But so far everything that faced us was solvable with ALSA plugins + hooks.11:57
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MNZStskeeps, PA works over ALSA, so that's sort of a moot point IMHO11:58
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StskeepsMNZ: :nod: either way, i'm no expert11:58
StskeepsMNZ: i would know who to put you in a room with to discuss these things though11:59
MNZStskeeps, that would be awesome. DocScrutinizer is also quite involved with this and I think he would like to join said discussion12:00
StskeepsMNZ: :nod: it's kinda a higher level discussion than 'just' n900 when it comes to PA12:00
timeless_pidginSo, i just discovered there's an election. I discovered it by reading scrollback for a channel i rarely if ever read in that form.12:00
timeless_pidginAs i'm on vacation, i'm not even sure i could find an email in my mailbox...12:01
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StskeepsMNZ: what was the page for your work?12:01
Stskeeps (garage somewhere?)12:01
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MNZStskeeps, (most everything is outdated, except for the repo)12:02
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* timeless_pidgin kicks pidgin for its totally broken painting while scrolling in fullscreen12:03
MNZI dunno why I parenthesized that 0_o12:03
MNZtimeless_pidgin, 2512:03
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timeless_pidginMnz: thanks. I don't think i'll spend one on pidgin atm.12:06
StskeepsMNZ: not sure if he's around at the moment (typical lunchtime atm), but at least introductions have been initiated :)12:07
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timeless_pidginFor pidgin, the font/insert/smile/attention bar should be a single button in the same row as the user text line. Tapping it should bring up an overlay which doesn't affect layout and contains the current row of buttons.12:08
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MNZStskeeps, thanks :) appreciate the effort12:08
Stskeeps is our current kernel 'tree' (we upstream from here and sync with upstream releases)12:09
timeless_pidginAnd the channel list should probably be an overlay of the input area on the right side, tapping it could bring up an overlay of 60 percent of the screen width...12:09
timeless_pidginAnd there should be an *easy* way to pick a much smaller font size.. Grr12:09
timeless_pidginOh, and the channel topic should share a row w/ the channel name !12:10
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Jaffadneary: X-Fade: sounds sensible12:20
dnearyJaffa, Thanks :)12:21
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dnearyShould be done by lunchtime (I don't want to resend tokens to people who have voted already)12:21
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tetPlease, can someone help me getting some informations about the icon used in Maemo ? I don't understand where to find them or use them :(12:34
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Carnequehey tet12:38
Carnequewhich icon?12:39
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tetCarneque, I spent hours trying to understand an easy way to use any of the maemo default icons (stock icons) listed here
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CarnequeI'm taking a look here12:42
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CarnequeThe directory  ../icons contains the folders with the related sized icons inside.12:43
CarnequeSo you'd just write your program around utilizing the stock item you want I believe12:44
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tetWhat is the exact path of this icon folder ?12:46
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Carnequeturning my phone on12:48
RST38h"iPad sales are slashing laptop sales by as much as 50 per cent, according to the boss of US retailer Best Buy."12:50
RST38hBye bye netbooks12:50
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AminCXmy n900 is not charged any more and there is no sense when i connect the charger/usb connector to it,12:51
Carnequethat's awesome for laptop buyers12:51
AminCXuntil 2 hour a go when device was turned off, if i connect the charger/usb it started up but now nothing will happened anymore, any help or suggestion will be welcome.12:51
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tetCarneque, Think i just found the folder... /n900/home/opt/usr/share/icons12:53
Carnequehey tet, did you search through the terminal?12:53
tetCarneque, My main problem was that i didn't want to point directly to the file12:53
Carnequewhy not?12:54
tetand use more something like "image = gtk.image_new_from_stock(hildon.GENERAL_ADD, gtk.ICON_SIZE_BUTTON)"12:54
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tetBecause if in further release they modify the path :/ i'am screwed12:54
tetAnd to save me the trouble of finding files on N900 without a proper search tool :/12:55
merlin1991find in xterm?12:55
Carnequewhat folder was /n900 in, and why isn't that path written on the Maemo 5 icon list page?12:55
tetyeah it's what i finally did12:55
Carnequeso there is no bash command loc12:56
CarnequeI just got this12:56
tetno locate sadly :(12:56
tet /n900 is just an sshfs folder mounted on my computer12:56
Carnequeoh okay12:57
tetI really don't get what the point is to make a full icon list and don't put the actual folder of these12:57
CarnequeThere isn't an extension pack yet with additional commands?12:57
Carnequewhoever wrote that page should definetly consider adding it12:57
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merlin1991well a find / -name *.png | grep <appname> shows the paths quite fast though :D12:59
tetmerlin1991, in any case there is a bash command to do things. Sure i agree. Yet common utility folder like the icon one should be documented.13:00
tetand i still miss the locate command :'(13:00
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chibi-taigahey guys13:01
Carnequeokay... in findutils-gnu's description13:01
chibi-taigais there an replacement for moonlight?13:01
Carnequeit says 'locate' has been split off into a seperate packageg13:01
tetsunlight ? :/13:01
Carnequeso it may exist in another package13:01
chibi-taigamoonlight thw linux ver for microsoft silverlight13:02
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crashanddiewhy the hell would anyone want silverlight running on Linux?13:27
crashanddieEven if it's Open Source, it's utterly crap technology13:27
crashanddieIt's like Flash designed by crackwhores13:27
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Surfawhile many web-pages show content with it13:27
Surfasimple as that13:27
crashanddieThere's many websites that use HTML/CSS to display shit13:27
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Surfai could paste you plenty of finnish sites with silverlight content but you wouldn't agree anyway, so I'm not going to13:28
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crashanddiewell, then there's plenty of finnish idiots!13:30
crashanddieOr at least, managers with too much grip on what their codemonkeys have to do.13:31
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Surfaeveryone who disagrees with you is an idiot? :)13:31
Stskeepsthat's pretty much his approach, yes13:31
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crashanddieNot at all13:31
crashanddieAnyone who willfully accepts silverlight as a valid technology is an idiot13:32
Surfayou prefer flash?13:32
crashanddieI hate Flash with a passion, I don't call people who use/develop in it idiots13:32
Surfai thought flash was source of all evil13:32
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lcukcrashanddie, "why the hell would anyone.."13:35
lcukits open source, we can13:35
lcukand even if not13:35
crashanddieI didn't say you couldn't13:35
crashanddieI ask why you would.13:35
lcukjust because you dont think its useful13:35
lcukothers do13:35
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crashanddiewell, then give me a proper rationale around the use of silverlight13:36
lcuki dont have one13:36
lcuki am not a silverlight person13:36
lcukbut others are13:36
lcukask me same question about why I care about gtk/hildon on meego etc and I might have more to say (and have done)13:37
crashanddiethen don't bitch about my bitches -- I asked "Why the hell would you want it?", so unless there is a good reason to use silverlight rather than technology x (be it flash, html 5, whatever), I don't see the point of pointing out there are plenty of users or plenty of websites.13:37
infobotcrashanddie meant: then don't bitch about my bitching -- I asked "Why the hell would you want it?", so unless there is a good reason to use silverlight rather than technology x (be it flash, html 5, whatever), I don't see the point of pointing out there are plenty of users ...13:37
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Surfawell, i don't need to ask people why should i use something, typically i try to learn if it's useful for me or not.. if not, then I'm simply not going to use it and not telling everyone that it's crap and it shouldn't be ever on the linux13:40
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Surfai personally would like to see silverlight on linux as well, asap please :)13:41
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psycho_oreosask steve ballmer13:44
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lcukhmmm frals13:51
lcukif i send an animated gif13:51
lcukvia you know what, does it play at the other end?13:51
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Macerluke-jr: you have tmob?14:00
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crashanddieSurfa: damn, you're thick.14:06
Surfacrashanddie, like talking to a mirror right?14:06
crashanddieand damn, windows 7 "first run" takes a bloody long time14:08
crashanddieSurfa: not really, I just get reasonably pissed when people put words in my mouth.14:08
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DocScrutinizerStskeeps: jacekowski: ShadowJK: ok, some 7h of device hooked up to charger and kept in NOLO "u" were enough to get 3.07V on battery14:10
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th3hateany way to fix a corrupted internal memory (eMMC) ? it says device storage format unsupported14:12
DocScrutinizerso definitely: NOLO is NOT charging. Recommendations to keep device in 'u' mode to recover from flat battery are absolutely contraproductive14:12
DocScrutinizerth3hate: reflash eMMC14:12
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DocScrutinizer51SpeedEvil: ^^^ s/ Stskeeps / SpeedEvil /14:16
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th3hateDocScrutinizer, flash valilla emmc with same flags as rootfs?14:16
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DocScrutinizer51flash both. Which flags?14:17
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infobotrumour has it, flashing is
DocScrutinizer51SpeedEvil: NOLO is ignoring 'u' and enters charging mode with flashing yellow now on flat bat14:18
merlin1991th3hate, afaik, flash emmc without rebootflag, and then rootfs14:18
harI can't get the app manager to work over my wi-fi (it works on ther wifi-s). Any suggestions why? I tried turning the firewall off, it doesn't help.14:19
DocScrutinizer51merlin1991: exactly14:19
SpeedEvilhar: I would install rootsh - then do apt-gert install fmms - or something - to get a reasble log14:20
SpeedEvilhar: What do you mean by doesn't work - what doesn't work14:20
th3hatemerlin1991, reboot is -R ?14:20
harit doesn't download files and doesn't update itself. Internet works in browser.14:21
lcukgreat post by EIPI: "All the talk about the legacy devices (e.g. N8X0, 770) by the candidates in that Q&A I did got me recharging my N800 for the first time in months - like 3 months! I updated to the latest Community SSU, installed Telescope and Diablo5 theme. And WOW - another highlight for me! That screen size, form factor and now with these little bells and whistles makes this thing so refreshed! Thank you to the devels of Telescope, Diablo14:21
lcuk5 and the Community SSU. My N800 feels invigorated."
mecelcuk, pretty cool!14:21
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* rmrfchik has n810 as well14:24
rmrfchikdon't know how to use it now :(14:24
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DocScrutinizerhar: repo servers might be temporarily down14:31
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CarnequeIs there a way to take a screen shot on the N900?14:36
bleaderat least, there is a plugin14:36
bleaderyou can start it, press camera key and it takes a screenshot, can't remember the name through14:37
DocScrutinizerCarneque: ctrl-sh-P14:37
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Carnequeon the keyboard?14:37
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DocScrutinizersearch for picture file in .images/screenshots iirc14:38
DocScrutinizerCarneque: sure on kbd, where else? :-D14:38
CarnequeI guess I'm just confused how I get capital P and press sh all at the same time?14:39
Carnequeyeah haha14:39
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harhm, so it would seem14:40
Carnequelol I thought you meant the letters s and h14:41
Carneque<---- duh14:41
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DocScrutinizer51SpeedEvil: anybody: doesn somebody know off top of his head the twl4030 hard cutout voltage threshold for whole system? I.E  which is minimum voltage the N900 needs to boot?14:45
DocScrutinizer51(boot to NOLO)14:45
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DocScrutinizer51SpeedEvil: haha, inserting charger for <1s makes NOLO boot to system instead of charging low battery14:54
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hrw~curse pyqt14:57
sobczykthe madde has no support for opengl in qt4?14:57
infobotMay you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, pyqt !14:57
hrw        self.setAttribute(Qt.WA_Maemo5StackedWindow)14:58
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merlin1991hm that curse defenitely should go May you be reincarnated as a Windows Vista administrator, <nick>!14:58
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DocScrutinizer51SpeedEvil: answering my own Q: <3.0V seems NOLO and so whole hw doesn't start15:02
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DocScrutinizer5120 inserts of charger for a moment - to make NOLO try boot the system - did the trick to discharge cell from 3.1 to 2.9915:03
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DocScrutinizernow testing emergency recovery charge from host usb15:07
DocScrutinizersteady yellow :-)15:07
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DocScrutinizerbut different to charger where it took 10s max, now it seems to take its time15:08
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luke-jrisn't it supposed to take 30 min?15:09
DocScrutinizernah, it takes until cell voltage is >3.0V15:09
DocScrutinizerthen NOLO starts up15:10
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DocScrutinizer"NOKIA" and flashing yellow15:10
RST38hDoc: It is dead, Jim. You take its tricorder, and I will take its purse.15:11
DocScrutinizerand mass storage :-o15:11
DocScrutinizernow it booted to normal act_dead15:11
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DocScrutinizerwhich means it had a very short green or white flash on ind LED, and now continues flashing yellow and black screen instead of "NOKIA" (normal behaviour)15:12
DocScrutinizermass storage however was obviously a function of NOLO :-O15:13
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cheriffhello - what bit depth is the general UI rendered at? I thought it was 565-16bpp but something early in boot complains about unsupported depth and reboots. is it looking for 24bpp on /dev/fb0 ?15:16
RST38hIt is RGB565]15:16
cheriffhmm, thats what I thought. thanks15:16
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jpinx-eeepcI am getting intermittent hicups networking through the usb connection, sometime works fine other times not. when not and I do /etc/init.d/networking restart I get an error "Reconfiguring network missing ] "  Anyone able to point me in the right direction to fix it?15:22
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mgedminjpinx-eeepc, try sh -x /etc/init.d/networking restart15:23
mgedmintry to find out which command is causing that error15:23
CarnequeIs the N900 supposed to come with a CD for your computer?15:23
DuckbootCarneque: No - It's supposed to replace your computer15:24
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jpinx-eeepcmgedmin: ouch - lots of output that I'll have to sift through and transcribe...15:25
Carnequegood one15:25
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mgedminjpinx-eeepc, welcome to the wonderful world of software15:25
mgedminmost likely there's a broken script in /etc/network/if-*.d/15:26
jpinx-eeepcmgedmin: going through it now...15:26
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jpinx-eeepchere we go15:27
DocScrutinizerwwell, maybe mass storage mode isn't supported by NOLO but very early in regular system boot, even before grafix card gets cleaned from "NOLO" picture that remained in framebuffer15:27
jpinx-eeepc... + ifdown -a sh: missing ]15:27
jpinx-eeepcmgedmin: where do I fix that?15:27
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jpinx-eeepciow - where is ifdown ?15:28
jpinx-eeepcno other errors apart from the last line saying echo failed and exit 015:29
mgedminifdown is one of the system commands that also runs scripts15:30
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mgedmintry inserting 'set -x' near the top of each script in /etc/network/if-down.d/*15:31
jpinx-eeepcok - moment ...15:31
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jpinx-eeepcseems to be only one - mc-await-disconnect-script15:33
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jpinx-eeepcmgedmin: it refers me to a missing ] in /usr/bin/mc-await-disconnect15:41
jpinx-eeepcso how do I fix that?15:41
mgedminsyntax errors in scripts in /usr/bin?15:42
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mgedminis this on a n900?15:42
mgedminit's a binary file15:42
mgedminit can't have syntax errors15:43
jpinx-eeepcyes :(15:43
SpeedEvilyou haven't done anything silly like swapped the default shell for bash?15:43
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mgedminthose must be coming from some shell script that it executes15:43
SpeedEvilthere are scripts in /usr/bin IIRC15:43
jpinx-eeepcI did install bash15:43
mgedmin(true but irrelevant)15:43
jpinx-eeepcusing ash (default shell) I get the same error15:45
SpeedEvilyou can't run the normal scripts with bash15:46
SpeedEvilthey do not work15:46
SpeedEvilUse the bu15:46
SpeedEvilah - k15:46
SpeedEvilWork out where in the script the output about the error is after15:47
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jpinx-eeepcSpeedEvil: it's immediately after + exec /usr/bin/mc-await-disconnect15:49
SpeedEvilI ge the same error from ifdown -a15:49
jpinx-eeepcthe error is the next line " sh: missing ]  "15:49
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jpinx-eeepcyea - it seems to be part of the ifdown daemon15:50
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* jpinx-eeepc is not even sure if this is the root of his problem with networking over usb15:51
oscilliki swear15:51
oscilliki'm getting rid of my N90015:52
SpeedEvilstrace reveals /etc/network/if-post-down.d/zz_static_ip_if_down15:52
mgedminsend it to me, oscillik!15:52
oscillikunless someone can let me know if you can clear the cache for the email application15:52
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oscillik30 seconds to open an email is ridiculous15:52
alteregoDoes iced tea ship with a microb plugin?15:52
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jpinx-eeepcSpeedEvil: in the end we can't edit the binary15:53
oscillikdoes anyone know if it's possible to clear the cache for email? because i'm positive that's the problem15:54
oscillikthe email application is snappy and fast within the first week of reflashing it15:54
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oscillikafter that, it just gets worse15:54
SpeedEviljpinx-eeepc: In trhe end, the error is clearly oming from a script that binary calls. You can fix it15:55
SpeedEviloscillik: Sorry - no clue - I've uninstalled modest.15:55
cheriffRST38h: do you know what X does with the remainder of the 1920k? given that its above 800*480*2. double/triple buffered?15:55
jpinx-eeepcSpeedEvil: cool - which script ? :)15:55
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oscillikthanks SpeedEvil, at least i now know that the N900 is a lost cause for me15:55
* jpinx-eeepc is a whole lot happier now that SpeedEvil has the same issue15:56
jpinx-eeepcoscillik: send it to me ;)15:56
oscillikyeah sure, £300 please ;)15:56
oscillikseriously, at this point, i'm looking to part-exchange it at Computer Exchange for a Nexus One15:57
jpinx-eeepcoscillik: 200 if it's still under warranty 6months15:57
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SpeedEviljpinx-eeepc: strace15:57
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jpinx-eeepcSpeedEvil: hw does that parse? strace /etc/init.d/networking restart15:58
SpeedEviljpinx-eeepc: strace -f will follow forks and give you info on all scripts somethings calling15:59
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jpinx-eeepcSpeedEvil: ash: strace: not found15:59
SpeedEvilapt-gret install strace16:00
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jpinx-eeepcSpeedEvil: the problem is that my issue with networking means I can not get the n900 online to install :(16:01
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dnearyEliminating dups is a pain16:01
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jpinx-eeepcdneary: there are packages for that16:01
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dnearyjpinx-eeepc, It's concerning elections, tmp tokens, etc. Not quite the same thing :)16:02
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SpeedEviljpinx-eeepc: setup usb networking16:02
jpinx-eeepcSpeedEvil: that's what doesn't work16:03
jpinx-eeepcI got it to work once, by some lucky fluke16:03
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SpeedEvilOr download the packages and install with dpkg16:04
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jpinx-eeepcSpeedEvil: yea - I can see this taking a bit of time, but thanks for the good pointers ;)16:04
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jpinx-eeepcI'll work on it now and see what happens16:04
jpinx-eeepcall for a missing ]16:04
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SpeedEvilIt could be merely cosemetic.16:06
SpeedEvilDon't assume that errors are rthe cause of it not working16:06
DocScrutinizer51SpeedEvil: ok, somehow I managed to get device into a state where NOLO starts up and makes yellow flash, but actually no power taken from USB (=not charging). Had to remove battery to cure that16:07
jpinx-eeepcSpeedEvil: I saidd that earlier16:07
SpeedEvilIf it works for most people, erros that are 'normal' may not be chased16:07
jpinx-eeepcSpeedEvil: ping: sendmsg: Invalid argument16:07
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: funky16:07
SpeedEviljpinx-eeepc: gotta be root16:07
jpinx-eeepcI am ;)16:07
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infobotRemove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered Nokia wallcharger to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber going off - in this case start over again with ~flatbatrecover16:10
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DocScrutinizer51seems still OK16:11
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DocScrutinizer51anyway: U-mode is blocked in NOLO when battery is too low. So on bootloops having run flat the battery nothing will help except external charger16:19
DocScrutinizer51esp since u-mode also does NOT charge16:19
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X-FadeDocScrutinizer51: Are you sure it doesn't charge?16:21
X-FadeDocScrutinizer51: Not that the CPU is spinning at full and the usb port hardware is up, which uses more than it charges?16:21
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DocScrutinizer51it's taking much less than 30mA from my USB charger16:21
DocScrutinizer51probably zero16:22
X-FadeOk, that should be enough proof then.16:22
SpeedEvilbug time16:22
X-FadeWhen booted you will see a warning when you use more than you charge.16:22
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DocScrutinizer51X-Fade: last night it run flat while on charger in u-mode16:23
DocScrutinizer51really flat16:23
DocScrutinizer51like 3.05V cell voltage16:23
X-FadeAh, well not totally flat but close ;)16:23
DocScrutinizer51yeah, hw cutout threshold16:24
X-FadeMy N800's battery was at 0.05V yesterday.16:24
SpeedEvilIt goes to 2780mV or so16:24
DocScrutinizer51below 3V the hw won't start up16:24
jpinx-eeepcSpeedEvil: from the laptop to the n900, why would I be getting "ping: sendmsg: Invalid argument"  ?16:24
keriojpinx-eeepc: no route16:25
SpeedEvilyeah - I mean still running16:26
SpeedEvil2724 is the lowest I see on logs16:26
SpeedEvilbme dead16:27
DocScrutinizer51on a sidenote (for those interested): NOLO yellow flashing is an itsy tad dimmer than normal system notification for charging16:27
jpinx-eeepckerio: it's listed in /etc/network/interfaces as static with the right info, but comes up in route as "local-link"16:27
jpinx-eeepcand as
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CutMeOwnThroathm, I don't think I can track down why the "Fn" and "Enter" key don't work as they should... perhaps the best would be just to play the original N810 image(s) back in?16:37
CutMeOwnThroatI'm sure it's some software-thing, because the keys trigger the clicking noise that the N810 makes when on keystrokes when the sound is on16:38
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dnearyBombs away16:43
dnearyApologies for the delay16:43
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jpinx-eeepcCutMeOwnThroat: !16:44
X-Fadedneary: received16:45
dnearyDups removed, but if you voted already you mighht still get a new voting token16:45
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sobczykis it possible to disable virtual keyboard for certain apps?16:46
jpinx-eeepcmine doesn't work for all apps anyway:/16:47
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sobczykI want to use qt4 and want the VK work for all apps except the one I'm developing now16:48
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MunkiiiCan anybody help me with this problem?16:52
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GAN900Too many people to vote for.16:55
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pupnik_good question Munkiii16:58
Munkiiii guess nobody knows how?16:58
ieatlintGAN900: agreed... and inconveniently, they're listed by name despite often being known by a handle16:59
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GAN900ieatlint, handle is in the parens on the voting page.17:01
ieatlintah... i haven't logged in yet, just have the emails17:01
X-Fadeieatlint: Well if you aren't smart enough to spot the nick then you have other problems ;)17:01
lcuktheres a lot of good candidates in this election!17:01
ieatlintX-Fade: you don't get my vote now :P17:01
X-Fadeieatlint: Don't need your vote ;) Sole dictator role suits me a lot better :D17:02
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ieatlintyou'll have to share that with intel soon... i wish you luck17:03
jpinx-eeepckerio: ok - I have the usb local network working, but I can not get the n900 to connect by usb to the laptops wifi17:03
GAN900OK, first person to give me $20 gets my vote.17:03
Stskeepszimbabwe dollars count17:03
GAN900and you're not on the ballot Mr. MeeGo.17:04
ieatlintyou'd spend more than $20 trying to find a $20 zimbabwean note17:04
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GAN900I really hate trying to figure who wont need my vote to get in.17:05
pupnik_how many total members GAN90017:05
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GAN9005 seats, 10 candidates.17:06
keriojpinx-eeepc: enabled forwarding and nat or forwarding and bridging?17:06
pupnik_what are a couple of priorities for the council that need promoting at this time?17:06
kerioand the appropriate routing on the n90017:06
kerioand the fake tablet connectivity connection17:06
jpinx-eeepckerio: route on teh laptop shows the default route as my wifi - what esle is needed?17:07
kerioenable forwarding, set up routing on the n900 itself17:08
pupnik_one commenter thought the community was more "developer oriented" than "user oriented".  That seems proper to me, since the main use of the community is supporting the platform via ports and development.17:08
kerioi s'pose17:08
keriowhat users17:08
keriothe n900 has no users17:08
jpinx-eeepckerio: route on teh n900 shows the laptop IP as default route17:08
ieatlinthaha, indeed17:08
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GAN900pupnik_, lemmyslender is a little bit confused.17:09
GAN900But I see it as CONTRIBUTOR oriented.17:10
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GAN900Which is neither exclusively developer- nor user-oriented.17:10
pupnik_ok you're right, there are many important ways to contribute besides developing17:10
GAN900I think the point is that it's not really end-user oriented.17:11
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MunkiiiSeriously, nobody knows anything? -
SpeedEvilMunkiii: Many people won't bother loading a random URL for what could be a stupid question.17:12
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SpeedEvilIt's generally a good idea to give a sentance or two about the URL, and why we might be interested in loading it.17:12
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SpeedEvilPlus - the vast majority of people won't be able to anwer your question.17:12
SpeedEvilYou're just wastinge their rrime, and annoying them if you do that.17:12
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jpinx-eeepckerio: got it working - thanks for the pointers :)17:15
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GAN900Votes away17:16
* GAN900 crosses fingers.17:16
MunkiiiOk, i am asking if anybody knows how to re-arrange desktops, i want to change the order of desktops around without manually removing all widgets and putting them back on other desktops.17:16
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DocScrutinizer51hahaha "too high temperature detected, flashlight disabled"17:16
kerioDocScrutinizer: what's the temperature?17:16
DocScrutinizer51dunno, 20s later system shut down due to low battery17:17
GAN900Everybody be sure to vote in the council election.17:17
DocScrutinizer51also no idea which temperature the flashlight app is using to determine that17:18
GAN900Having a good voter turnout helps ensure a strong mandate for the next council (which gives a lot more clout with Nokia and MeeGo).17:18
DocScrutinizer51everybody be sure to receive their token17:19
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GAN900dneary resent this morning.17:19
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DocScrutinizer51umm ok, I'll check my mail17:20
dnearyGAN900, Correction: this afternoon17:20
GAN900dneary, your timezone is a lie.17:21
Venemohey maemo guys :)17:21
pupnik_"After spending a few weeks with linux, using Windows NT and 98 felt like wearing a straightjacket riding down a steep hill in a baby-buggy"17:24
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dnearypupnik_, He means, "felt like fun"17:30
dnearypupnik_, "felt like being alive again"17:30
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: ShadowJK: with bme stopped system shuts down hard on ~3.0V, For battery <3.0V emergency charging, on ~3.0V NOLO boots and starts sw controlled charging, on ~3.3V NOLO boots up act_dead system for normal charging17:31
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DocScrutinizerdneary: mail made it thru spam filters :-)17:34
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dnearydocscrutinizer: kewl17:34
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pupnik_dneary: :) i think it meant 'loss of control' of course17:34
DocScrutinizerdneary: thanks for sorting it17:36
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dnearypupnik_, Riding down a steep hill in a buggy with a straightjacket on sounds like fun to me17:40
dnearyI saw it on Jackass17:40
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lcukdneary, change the title of that thread "Voting tokens going out tomorrow"17:47
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lcukit keeps coming up at the top of my mailbox17:47
lcukand I actually thought voting hadn't started!17:47
dnearylcuk: OK, next time Ig to it17:47
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oscillikok, the deed is done. i will be18:22
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oscillikexchanging my N900 tomorrow18:22
pupnik_what caused that decision oscillik18:23
oscilliki have a spare BL-5J (N900) and BP-4L (E90) battery, if anyone wants them. £10 each18:23
oscillikpupnik_: the email client being absolute gash18:23
Jaffaoscillik: And what are you getting instead?18:24
oscillikNexus One18:24
Jaffaoscillik: Does it do proper quoting?18:24
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oscillikthe slow performance and lack of features of the email client on the N900 is just too much to bare, for me personally anyways18:25
pupnik_what does the email client on that do that the n900 doesn't?18:25
Jaffaoscillik: Presumably, being Google Mail, it does proper conversations & threading18:25
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oscillikand it doesn't take upwards of 30 seconds to 1 minute to open emails18:25
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oscillikalso, with the Nexus One, i don't have to rely on Nokia Messaging for "push" email18:26
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zapSo, now micro$oft 0wnz Nokia?18:27
oscilliklol wut?18:27
oscillikerm, you DO know that guy was an ex-Microsoft employee, right?18:28
oscillikalso, the english in that article is terrible18:29
zapmy english is not better18:29
nidOhe was also employed by juniper, macromedia, and adobe18:29
nidOdo they all ownz microsoft *and* nokia?!18:29
pupnik_if that guy can get some microsoft office support into nokia phones, i'll call it a win18:30
zapokay, I just hope that guy doesn't jump out of his pants when he hears "linux"18:30
pupnik_yes, he's got to get behind meego - has he said anything about it?18:30
zaposcillik: here's a better english:
oscillik"He is leaving his current job as the head of Microsoft's Business Division after only 20 months with the US software giant."18:31
GAN900The Nexus One's screen sucks.18:32
oscillikthe screen isn't that much of an issue for me18:32
oscillikwhat is an issue is the completely abhorrent performance of the email client18:33
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pupnik_So email client wasn't open-sourced apparently18:34
DocScrutinizer51it is18:35
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alteregoping lcuk18:36
nidOit is, but its 1) crap anyway and 2) crippled to worse than crap to the point where even just undoing half the limitations nokia's imposed is a boatload of unwanted hassle18:36
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alteregoWoah, a 5M executable?18:37
alteregoI wonder why that's so big ..18:37
alteregoHah, it's actually 6661KB ..18:38
alteregoAh, without debugging symbols it's 216K18:39
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DocScrutinizer51I sail to get it why nobody has managed to plumb a demi decent GUI to a working existing mail client18:39
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DocScrutinizer51err fail18:40
DocScrutinizer51and semi, ffs18:41
alteregoYou're right, that was a fail ;)18:41
dridkHow can I play a a video streaming from ?I mean , which command do I need to write in terminal to launch the player ?18:41
alteregoObviously you require a fail client :P18:41
nidOI just have to make do with my old-ass e90 when i'm expecting to need serious mail while out anywhere18:42
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alteregoMeh, I just use web interfaces tbh18:43
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DocScrutinizer51for sure I don't need a mail client on maemo - mail management is just a nightmare on a fullfeatured desktop mail client, with decent kbd and 21' screen18:43
nidOwell, there are varying degrees. I dont want or expect to be able to fully manage all aspects of my mail from a titchy little screen, i'd just love an imap client that actually works.18:44
pupnik_some people have to use email intensely for work: i understand their frustration with Modest18:44
nidOfor that I have to turn back to symbian18:44
pupnik_nidO: do you find that some symbian apps are faster to use than maemo equivalents?18:44
pupnik_i'm thinking of the ui and menu structure18:45
pupnik_and speed of doing various operations18:45
DocScrutinizer51pupnik_: n900 is definitely not the right device for people doing large amounts of email, no matter which mailer they use18:45
nidOyes, on my e90 specifically a good deal of real productivity-related stuff is much faster to do than on maemo18:45
nidOboth for ui reasons and also tbh the keyboard, the e90 version of which I can use infinitely faster than the n900's18:46
pupnik_i found the e71 easy to learn and use without any study18:46
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oscillikProfiMail is, by far, the best mobile email client i have ever used18:47
pupnik_perhaps the symbian folks at nokia should be engaged as meego-testers -- see what annoys them and you learn what symbian users are going to want out of the next-gen18:47
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oscillikbut even the standard built-in email client on Symbian is complete crap18:47
nidOplus the n900 is just slower to respond in general than an e90 or most e-series symbian's - modest takes an age to list a mail folder, my e90's built-in client or profimail both display them basically instantly18:47
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DocScrutinizer51honestly who's claiming to do professional work on email on a 800x480, should get fired18:48
oscilliki'm not claiming to do professional work18:48
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oscilliki'm just saying that in 2010, it is ridiculous to press the email notification (to open the email) and have to wait upwards of 1 whole minute for that email to open18:48
nidOI claim that I do on my e90's 800x352 screen \o/18:49
DocScrutinizer51even my 1280x800 feels slow for mailer with those 400mails/day18:49
nidOi wish I got that few :(18:49
DocScrutinizer51slow to work on due to being small18:50
nidOtbh screen size is going to always be a hinderance to getting stuff done, but that doesnt mean the software has to cripple it even further18:50
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alteregomece: I just uploaded a new version of my GPS app, if you're interested18:55
DocScrutinizerno doubt modest is modest18:55
mecealterego, cool.. we talking devel or that place you put that thing that time?18:55
alteregoJust the executable.18:55
alteregoWhere I uploaded it last time.18:56
alteregoStill a couple of small things I want to tidy before I start publishing to extras18:56
alteregoThis version requires qtm-systeminfo18:57
meceI'm having a bit of trouble with zooming a flickable area18:57
meceI used NumberAnimation to change scale18:58
alteregoLet me guess? Centering?18:58
meceexactomundo. Got a solution for that?18:58
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mecewell it's scaling around center, naturally.18:59
alteregoWell, the only thing I can think of, is you need to modify the position proportional to the scale factor :/18:59
meceyeah. Or the distance from the center poportional to the scale factor.18:59
rmrfchikis there any developers? maemo packaging drives me mad18:59
mecermrfchik, what's the problem? It's main purpose is to make people mad it seems.18:59
alteregoI've not actually come across that issue, but I can see that as being a problem :)19:00
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meceuh. Actually I have to go. The Horde need a feeding19:00
alteregoOkay, have fun :)19:00
alteregoI'm going out in 30 minutes so ..19:00
alteregoTalk to you soon ;)19:00
* hardaker hates packaging. .deb; .rpm; they all suck19:01
hardakeranyone have a solution to this one: error while loading shared libraries: /usr/lib/ unexpected reloc type 0x0319:01
rmrfchikmece: packaging removes "+x" from my binary.19:01
rmrfchikI don't want to put binary to /usr/bin as it root, I want to put it to /opt/maemo/usr/bin19:01
rmrfchikand when I do this, +x is removed19:01
alteregoInteresting ..19:02
dridkHow can I open a file with the media player ?19:03
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rmrfchikjust tried madde example. this put binary to root fs, insane19:04
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alteregodebug goes into /usr/local yes19:04
alteregoNot sure why they changed that19:04
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infoboti guess optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs19:11
DocScrutinizerget /usr and /var sorted, nuke /opt19:11
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DocScrutinizerI'm tempted to see what meego does for the optification problem aka root isn't 32G issue... Or mabby not19:13
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MNZAny hints on where to start to get familiar with NEON ?19:18
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DocScrutinizermy /usr/bin has 340 true files and 432 links. either way it's odd19:27
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DocScrutinizerfiles that are needed for boot first phase (until single user and mounting volumes) have to go to /bin, rather than /usr/bin (see FHS). Then the rest (the links) could stay in /usr/bin and whole /usr move to eMMC (that's what /usr is meant for)19:30
DocScrutinizerof course same applies to /usr/sbin19:31
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kerioDocScrutinizer: yeah but that would require having a clue19:43
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DocScrutinizerkerio: there are enough people with a clue, but what's more problematic than any lack of expertise is implementing and deploying a painless migration path19:59
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DocScrutinizerwhat's the nice term I heard recently? botch once, suffer many20:00
* DocScrutinizer wonders if eMMC VANILLA image file could get modified in a way it flashes /home partition only, keeping the VFAT partition untouched20:02
kerioDocScrutinizer: let's hope meego doesn't do the same stupid shit20:03
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pupnik_what do you do when knowledgable people disagree about what would be stupid, kerio20:04
keriopupnik_: why, lock them in a cage and make them swallow a copy of the key each20:05
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keriomake them kill each other to get the key in their stomach20:05
keriothe one that survives gets to decide20:05
MNZkerio, that is stupid20:06
MNZthey'll gank up on one and kill him and get the key20:06
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MNZthen the rest will leave20:06
kerioMNZ: oh, we're talking about more than two people20:06
MNZyou are still left with more than one person to decide20:06
kerioi see20:06
pupnik_you could be a lawyer, MNZ20:07
MNZI vote for a fiddle playing contest. A fiddle-off, if I may.20:07
MNZMay the best fiddler prevail!20:07
DocScrutinizermore than two knowledgeable people? o.O20:07
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pupnik_imagining for a moment a powerful community council; how much of a factor should be "knowledge of maemo OS / APIs / apps"20:08
pupnik_voting factor20:08
DocScrutinizeralso we got another problem: who decides who's knowledgeable? The one über-knowledgeable?20:08
MNZpupnik_, a lawyer.. probably not. But I'm enough of an a-hole to get myself out of a hypothetical situation such as the one kerio proposed.20:09
pupnik_imagining each voter uses best of his/her knowledge DocScrutinizer - voting yields median opinion20:09
kerioDocScrutinizer: "Ha. Well, that's a tricky one... I mean, who's qualified to judge something like that? This is the world's smartest man we're talking about here, so how can you tell? How can anyone tell if he's gone crazy?"20:10
DocScrutinizeraah I see, you're thinking about 5 people to swallow the key :-P20:10
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DocScrutinizerhonestly, sanitizing optification would be a really nice milestone for harmattan20:11
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DocScrutinizerand to me at least it seems it's not really hard, if we can just rip out MyDocs partition from VANILLA image, and instead fill the former /home partition with /usr/[(s)bin,share,foo] /var and /home20:14
MNZand then fix all the optified packages20:14
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DocScrutinizerI'm recommending for long now there MUST be a simple way to deoptify20:15
infobotThe key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.20:15
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felipecis anybody compiling their own kernel?20:16
MNZI do. But it's the rather oooldddd maemo kernel, .2820:17
DocScrutinizerfor packages using the auto-optification option of buildhost (sorry if my wording is odd here, I got abscesses looking into it so am not really familiar with it) it should be rather simple to deoptify20:17
felipecMNZ: but it's based on the debian package, right? not something close to mainline20:18
MNZit's just mainline + nokia patches + 'debian' directory with the debian control files20:19
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MNZhow 'close' to mainline do you need?20:19
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felipecMNZ: how many nokia patches?20:19
MNZfelipec, I have no idea. It's one big ass patch that comes with the package sources20:20
felipecMNZ: right, that's what I thought... that's pretty far from upstream20:20
felipec30k lines of code last I checked20:20
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felipecer, 30k patches20:20
MNZare you reaaally using mainline??20:20
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felipecMNZ: yes, on the beagleboard20:21
DocScrutinizererr what? 30k files? with patches?? o.O20:21
* felipec checks20:21
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* DocScrutinizer is checking number of inodes on his disk :-P20:22
* ShadowJK would prefer /usr/local or /usr/pkg instead of mixing base system with addon software all in /usr/*20:22
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: hmm, debatable20:23
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ShadowJKthat way you could keep base on ubifs20:24
DocScrutinizer/usr/local usually is for locally build beta versions etc - rarely seen any binary public pkg installing there20:24
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felipec23k patches, 6 million lines of code20:25
DocScrutinizeranyway you for sure can do this, FHS is no law, it's a RFC which you can augment if you know what you're doing20:25
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ShadowJKyeah well, given how fucking lazy people are, it's the default place stuff goes when running ./configure for most things :P20:25
ShadowJK/usr/pkg is used by all the bsds iirc20:26
DocScrutinizerfelipec: FFS! :-O20:26
MNZfelipec, why were you asking anyway?20:26
felipecMNZ: I want to switch development from beagleboard to an N90020:27
meceAlright. Horde fed and put to bed. yay!20:27
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MNZfelipec, and it doesn't boot, I assume.20:28
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: nevertheless /usr is by definition a directory that MUST NOT be required to boot up the machine to single user20:28
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: the whole and only purpose of /usr is to keep it on a separate drive that may fail and still system is maintainable by root via console20:29
felipecMNZ: doesn't look like that... on a MeeGo system20:30
ShadowJKwell with the security framework in place user's nuking their os will be reduced somewhat I'd think :D20:31
DocScrutinizerI'll rip out security framework and feed it to those introducing it to linux20:32
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DocScrutinizeranyway, that's unrelated20:33
DocScrutinizeras "system can boot to single-user without /usr" means you're free to mount /usr later in boot process20:34
fralsawesome, my gf broke fmms on her phone and now im guiding her in how to send me the log file over skype videochat...20:34
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DocScrutinizerthe maintainability of a system with borked /usr is just one of the side effects of the definition "/usr can live on a separate drive"20:35
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ShadowJKI'm sure it was considered entirely irrelevant for n900, as / and /usr are on the same fs :)20:36
DocScrutinizerfrals, you got a cute gf20:36
meceDocScrutinizer, What? Pics or it didn't happen!20:36
SpeedEvilfrals: Why don't you have ssh setup? :)20:36
fralsshes very proud she understood the 'cp' command.. after having a fit because it was called.. well, cp20:36
DocScrutinizermece: eh??20:37
ShadowJKI hope /usr will be read-only in the future ;p20:37
fralsSpeedEvil: i do, but i figured copying a file to mydocs and sending from desktop was easier than getting the ip from her20:37
meceDocScrutinizer, how else would you know she's cute?20:37
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ShadowJKwith a rw /usr/pkg or something for addon pkgs20:37
mecefrals, she really needs to install personal ip widget, or whatever it's called.20:37
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ShadSEC2Docscrutinizer, what would be the issues in having the base system as is, and mounting a bigger fs onto it using mini_fo?20:38
fralsDocScrutinizer: yes i do ;)20:38
DocScrutinizermece: won't help neither on WLAN with NAT nor on GPRS20:38
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fralsfwiw it would help over gprs since her provides actually gives each device a proper ip without any nat/fw20:39
DocScrutinizerShadSEC2: first: my lack to know what's mini_fo20:39
ShadSEC2similar to unionfs... extenvensively used on OpenWRT20:40
DocScrutinizerShadSEC2: second: the obvious complications in doing things not the age old proven standard way20:40
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ShadSEC2simple, lightweight...20:40
DocScrutinizerfrals: that's quite unusual20:41
ShadSEC2well, but it doesnt seem to be any perfect way yet, there is?20:41
meceDocScrutinizer, how does it not help on gprs?20:41
DocScrutinizermece: see frals ^^^20:41
fralsDocScrutinizer: yeah, tele2 sweden is awesome.. no limit on mms size either :D20:42
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mecesaunalahti here and I have direct ip too. Very nice.20:42
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DocScrutinizerShadSEC2: move /usr and /var to eMMC and you're fine (after cleaning up the mess that's system init and optification now)20:43
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DocScrutinizerShadSEC2: there are some catches, e.g. system init using commands from /usr/(s)bin, which is clearly a (easy to fix) bug in system config20:44
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DocScrutinizerhonestly I guess I could sanitize the whole thing with ~5 cmdlines20:46
ShadSEC2docscrutinizer, I havent checked what's currently on /usr from the base system.. but depending on that, it would mean moving those files to slower emmc20:46
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DocScrutinizerbut next apt-get install would possibly break the whole system20:46
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ShadSEC2using the transparent union would still benefit read speed from binaries on ubifs20:47
mecedid we kill diasporas servers?20:47
DocScrutinizerthat's an extremly sophisticated approach for a trivial problem20:47
mecewashington was kinda nice this morning. Around noon it started lagging, and now it's gone.20:48
mecedid anyone here try it?20:48
* GAN900 facepalms at Talk.20:48
GAN900bergie, apparently Neimen is a "he" now.20:48
ShadSEC2but an extremely easy approach to implement too20:48
DocScrutinizerShadSEC2: just move all those files you need on boot or need fast access to, from /usr/bin to /bin (same for sbin) and task accomplished for that part20:49
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DocScrutinizerShadSEC2: uhuh, and how'd you handle updates of files living in "base system" /usr/bin ?20:50
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ShadSEC2Docscrutinizer, now that sounds much more complicated and prone to error... one of the beauty of the union approach is that you could always get rid of the overlay file and boot a perfectly clean new system20:50
ShadSEC2docscrutinizer, you mean a PR update or something?20:51
DocScrutinizerhow'd you handle files that get modifications during mini_fo mounted, but those mods needed during next boot early when it's not yet ?20:51
ShadSEC2wtf have i done? lol20:51
ShadowJKboot to act_dead mode for updates :)20:52
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ShadowJKthey're bicentennial events anyway ;D20:52
DocScrutinizerShadSEC2: honestly, a botch over a botch invented to fix a botch isn't a smart solution ever20:52
ShadSEC2DocScrutinizer,mmm, it doesnt work that way.. either you boot with the overlay, or you boot with the original untouched os20:53
DocScrutinizerShadSEC2: sorry you lost me20:53
ShadSEC2well, probably not, i am just asking... it works so well in openwrt...20:53
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ShadSEC2I mean that IF there are modifications to base files, they will be lost if you boot without the overlay20:54
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DocScrutinizerexactly, and you always boot without the overlay, as first and only thing bootloader passes to kernel is the rootfs20:55
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ShadSEC2probably that unaceptable20:55
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DocScrutinizerwhenever init system is able to mount the overlay, it as well can mount a simple classical /usr partition20:57
ShadSEC2the idea is to boot with ubifs+overlay... always.. except IF you want to begin with a new clean system20:57
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ShadSEC2but, there are advantages20:57
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bergieGAN900: I can understand that people are confused as we usually represent ourselves as individuals in Maemo circles :-) But yeah, it is a company...
ShadSEC21) the original base is always there, untouched20:57
DocScrutinizerShadSEC2: so how do you patch nolo to make it tell kernel to mount a rootfs that's actually a unionfs?20:58
DocScrutinizer(while I really doubt kernel can do that anyway)20:58
ShadSEC22) Not only you dont need to care about optifiying, you in fact dont need to care about some rogue program overfilling / with a log or something (Ie: fring... It was doing a huge log just in /)20:59
DocScrutinizerwhatever, that's quite obviously a lot more complex than a /usr partition on eMMC20:59
ShadSEC2sorry for my ignorance but.. what nolo?20:59
MNZNOkia LOader20:59
ShadSEC2it the bootloader or something?20:59
ShadSEC2So i guess it is closed and only boot from / ?21:00
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DocScrutinizerwhat's the root= parameter to pass to kernel so it mounts a mini_fo as rootfs? what patches in kernel are needed to teach it to do that?21:02
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DocScrutinizerI don't see the whole thing fly21:03
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GAN900bergie, at least 4 spellings in the thread, too.21:03
GAN900bergie, glad you saw it, anyway.21:03
bergieGAN900: if I were starting business now, I'd choose an easier name ;-)21:05
ShadSEC2docscrutinizer, let me look for it, it has been some time i dont play with that in openwrt21:05
ShadSEC2but if memory doesnt fail, i think it was probably doing part of the boot from real / and then doing a remount21:06
ShadSEC2better let me check...21:06
DocScrutinizer51ShadSEC2: that's exactly what I expected and answered above all the time. You never boot with mini_fo, you never know for sure if files are accessed old version before it is mounted later, you always can mount /usr same moment mini_fs is mounted21:08
DocScrutinizer51so mini_fs isn't really a simpler solution than a /usr partition21:09
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ShadSEC2yes, it boots from a squashfs (READ ONLY), later in the boot sequence mounts another partition and then call fopivot that presents / as the combination of the squashfs + overlay21:10
ShadSEC2docscrutinizer, yes21:11
DocScrutinizer51nice overkill for optification sanitising21:11
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ShadSEC2docscrutinizer, but the two advantages i said before are valuable i think21:12
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cheriffhas anyone had experience with kexec on the maemo kernel? How reliable has it been?21:12
ShadSEC2anyway, whatever the solution, one is needed21:13
DocScrutinizer51afaik it doesn't work at all21:13
ShadSEC2its incredible a simple package as screen isnt available even in extras-devel, to say just one example21:14
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cheriffDocScrutinizer51: ok thanks. I have a kernel with it enabled, and cross-compiler the user utils but could get it to do anything other than hang, and wasnt ure it ifs me or not :)21:15
cheriff*cross compiled *couldn't *sure  <-- typing skills ftw21:16
DocScrutinizer51well apt-cache tells me there's kexec. So maybe the's obsolete info21:17
GAN900bergie, I'll admit to having to google the spelling once every few months or so. *g*21:21
n900evilShadSEC2: it's in tools21:21
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ShadSEC2but the point is it is not in extras-devel21:22
ShadSEC2and it is not optified at all21:22
ShadSEC2it works ok though21:22
n900evilwell do it then!21:22
togglesAny packagers around? I had a repo setup and automated scripts that worked fine a month ago, now when I run the scripts I get "dpkg-checkbuilddeps: error: control file must have at least one binary package part"21:22
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ShadSEC2I did, but my program depends on screen21:22
ShadSEC2and anyways, its just an example21:23
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ShadSEC2of a basic program, that compiles straightforward, and it is not even availabe in extras-devel21:24
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SpeedEvilIt's as simple as nobodies bothererd to upload it.21:27
SpeedEvilAnd package21:27
togglesdamn.. fingered it out.. scratchbox needs a space before the Package line... doubleyouteeeff21:28
RST38hFreaking lemmings...21:28
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ShadSEC2yes, because with the current setup it is needed that someone installs the scratchbox, learn how to use it, how to package, and all that is because of the optifiying need21:28
RST38h"@rewt thats freeking great so I can use my 4GB Micro SD as 4GB of RAM!!!!"21:29
GAN900RST38h, the clear answer is: "Yes, yes you can."21:30
RST38hGAN: The clear answer is <facepalm>21:31
MNZThe clear answer is use an 80GB swap file over an NFS mounted partition21:32
ShadowJKthey are better for sending messages through time21:32
ShadowJKMNZ, that's something I wanted to try :)21:32
RST38hperforated tape sounds like a better swap media21:32
ShadowJKBeyond a certain point of IO pressure, I think it would be faster21:32
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ShadowJKif the host was using a desktop class harddrive, or had plenty of ram even21:32
MNZfaster than uSD, yes21:32
ShadowJKor emmc21:33
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RST38hShadowJK:compcache. compcache.21:33
ShadowJKnot so sure if swap on nfs is deadlock safe though21:33
ShadSEC2Hey, dont laugh, but sometime I was doing swap onto a cifs mounted file on openwrt21:33
SpeedEvilI have swapped over wifi.21:33
SpeedEvilWorked well for me21:33
ShadSEC2it was like 10 times faster than swapping to sd21:33
RST38hno wonder...21:33
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ShadSEC2(the sd was driven using only three gpios, so it was REALLY SLOW in firs tplace)21:35
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RST38h"The good news is that in 1995 we will have a good operating system and programming language; the bad news is that they will be Unix and C++."22:26
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derf"...and the code will be portable because it is written on top of a virus."22:33
RST38hthe code will be written BY virii22:38
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derfNot in 1995.22:39
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* GAN900 chuckles at the HDCP key22:40
GAN900It's the HD-DVD fiasco all over again.22:40
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RST38hLawyers vs. Reality22:41
RST38hBTW, I am sure this will end with a police state, all to prevent you from stealing the latest Disney abomination22:41
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GAN900Not likely in the US.22:44
GAN900Things will break here before it gets to that point.22:45
RST38hDefinitely likely in the US22:45
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RST38hBut yes, that is one possibility22:45
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MNZmeh highly unproductive day, time for something productive, aka sleep22:50
MNZnight folks22:50
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GAN900RST38h, too many armed people not interested in putting up with shenanigans like that.23:11
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GAN900RST38h, far more than you would believe if your sample size is "US cities". ;)23:11
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lcukRST38h, :D awesome23:28
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mc_teo`cross compiling23:33
mc_teo`i cant do it23:33
lcukget angry first23:33
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mc_teo`so you do know does native compiling on n900 have much overhead, cpu rape, etc23:34
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lcukmy apps compile from source on n900 in about 10 seconds23:34
lcukthats c source23:35
lcuktakes longer as more libs and dependencies are needed23:35
mc_teo`and like additional libs, etc dont take up loads of rootfs and other space23:35
lcukyes they sure do23:35
lcukso keep things small and light23:36
mc_teo`thats what i wanted to avoid23:36
lcuki just optified the include folder23:36
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mc_teo`did that help?23:36
lcukbut really a build of "build-essential" should be made to be optified - so gcc etc was also optified23:37
lcukmc_teo`, i built on my n900 from day 1 with it23:37
lcuki need to go back to doing that soon23:37
mc_teo`so it is optified, or should be?23:37
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lcukno mc_teo`23:37
mc_teo`isnt there like a vm image somewhere with it all working?23:38
mc_teo`i use windows23:38
lcukif you have ubuntu its pretty much painless if networks are happy23:38
lcukwindows there is an out of date vmware image23:39
mc_teo`i can use ubuntu on vmware, if it makes much difference23:39
lcukits good to get started with, but the scratchbox inside needs updating23:39
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lcukanyway, i am sure someone else will show you where the oldish vmware image is, it seems theres a problem with a newer image being missing23:40
lcuki tihnk someone said they were going to have a go at updating it23:40
* lcuk goes n codes23:40
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infobotmethinks optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs23:41
infobotkerio: thanks23:41
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infobotrumour has it, nokia is a cellphone company from Finland.23:42
infobotfinland is, like, some bloody scandinavian icicle, or nice place to live in :}23:42
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