IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2010-09-16

crashanddieandre__: you're a student?00:00
andre__crashanddie, yes00:01
andre__nah, it's not that bad actually :-P00:02
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andre__Because when I grow up, I want to become $something.00:02
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tlirguys, anyone tried android yet on the n810?00:02
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crashanddieI thought you were like a 30yo dude or summing00:02
crashanddiewhy are the same bloody questions coming up 24/7?00:03
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*** crashanddie changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo | | Maemo Community Council | | | Free software mirror: | Skype is INCLUDED in the N900. Unless you live in India, that is. | Also this is #maemo, NOT #nitdroid"00:03
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lcukcrashanddie, how is your search tool getting on? or have you not had time?00:04
crashanddienot working on it at all00:04
andre__crashanddie: nope, still not 30... but that wouldn't exclude student status either... :)00:04
lcukcould you push what you did do?00:04
crashanddieI could00:04
alteregoI really like how the N900 maintains seperate internet connections for the phone and a tethered computer.00:05
crashanddieBut anyone who understands Qt and can do a select in SQL is at the same point as I00:05
alteregoIt's funky :)00:05
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RST38bislcuk: nah, I did not00:05
alteregoAnd bluetooth00:05
crashanddieexcept I don't understand Qt00:05
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crashanddielcuk: I'll release a search lib end of next week, how's that?00:06
lcukcrashanddie, just put your knowledge in a post, if nothing happens, so what, but someone might use it to learn from00:06
lcukthats cool00:06
crashanddielcuk: then you just convince khertan to make a UI for it00:06
lcukRST38bis, what was your first?00:06
lcukno crashanddie00:06
lcukwe convince khertan and others to read the thread00:06
lcuktheres more in the community than just him!00:07
RST38bislcuk: n81000:07
lcukRST38bis, was that because you just found out about them, or did you want a keyboard?00:07
alteregoA UI For what? I've got some spare time and Qt skillz ;)00:08
RST38bislcuk: nokia had a developer discount, I applied, ported my stuff to it00:08
* lcuk nods00:09
crashanddiealterego: we want to use the conversation UI to display search results00:09
crashanddiealterego: search would work on conversations mainly (sms and IM)00:09
crashanddiealterego: conversation UI framework is there, and callable, just not documented00:09
alteregoHrm, cool.00:09
alteregoSo you have the ability to open a chat window with a specific message in view?00:10
crashanddiepretty much00:10
alteregoWell, do a UI mockup and I'll have a go00:10
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crashanddieI want to get this injection driver out first00:11
crashanddieso that'll be tomorrow00:11
crashanddieas I said, I'll work on it next week00:11
alteregoOkay, well, you know where to find me ;)00:11
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crashanddieKhertan_: ping00:12
crashanddieKhertan_: what's pypackager?00:12
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ieatlintheh, i've spent the last two days listening to intel talk about meego00:20
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lcukcrashanddie, pypackager is khertans package to package python apps00:21
CreamyGhey crashanddie, are you working on that mobile backtrack thing?00:22
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crashanddieCreamyG: not directly00:32
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crashanddieCreamyG: I got hold of the drivers, and have been working with some people to see how they worked exactly00:32
crashanddieworking on packaging a single .deb which will load the injection drivers into the kernel when needed00:33
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CreamyGcool, that will be fun to play with. i hope they release a public beta or at least lower the donation requirement...00:34
CreamyGor are you saying the drivers will be for the standard os/kernel when you're done?00:35
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crashanddiewell, you'll just need to install a modified power kernel00:36
CreamyGoooh even better then. dual booting is cool and all, but its nice to be able to receive calls :)00:36
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crashanddiethere's no dual booting with neopwn00:36
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crashanddieit's a chroot, meaning you just click on an icon and it launches the app00:37
crashanddieyou just eat plenty of RAM00:37
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CreamyGoh okay, i assumed it was a whole OS.00:38
crashanddiewell, it's just an OS that runs on top of Maemo00:38
crashanddiejust like easydebian, for example00:38
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crashanddie(neopwn is based on easydebian, AFAICT)00:38
CreamyGwell i should just try it some time, but last i saw they wanted $2000:39
crashanddiething is00:39
crashanddieasking money for someone to be included in a beta isn't a donation00:40
crashanddieit's a fee. A purchase.00:40
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CreamyGyeah. well i dunno if that's good or bad, but i just don't wanna pay more than $5 for something in beta00:42
crashanddieIt's bad00:42
crashanddiewhich is why I'm releasing the driver00:42
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CreamyGi'd be okay with it if it was $5, but more than that i worry that the coder may just quit and keep the money. anyways i should probalby get back to work, or i can't really judge people if i'm getting paid to do nothing all day lol00:47
* CreamyG goes to make coffee00:48
crashanddieYou should work for the french government00:48
crashanddienow there's people who have graduated into getting paychecks for doing utterly nothing00:48
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CreamyGhaha dude if this chan wasn't logged, i'd say which i work for lol...00:49
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crashanddieCreamyG: from what I can tell, you work for the Edmonton, Canada mayor's office.00:50
CreamyGof course i won't have found this chan if every google search for some build error didn't lead here00:50
lcukcrashanddie, i hate to break it to you, but how do you know that the binary you are about to distribute is based on the open code?  (devils advocate here, you could be committing just as much a sin as you say this guy is doing)00:50
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CreamyGhaha no, well i'm connected via my home computer so it won't show exactly thank god :P00:51
crashanddieCreamyG: good call.00:51
MohammadAG51lcuk, the kernel is licensed under the GPL00:51
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lcukMohammadAG51, so when somebody asks crashanddie for the source?00:51
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MohammadAG51why should they? when he got a GPL licensed blob?00:52
lcukyou do not play games with licensing00:52
lcukthe same rules would apply to crashanddie as he says should apply00:52
MohammadAG51tell it to the guy who's distributing a sourceless blob which is "maintained" by the stock kernel nokia guy00:52
lcukthe proper right thing to do now you have a binary is officially request the source00:52
crashanddiehey, I didn't say anything about his licence00:52
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lcukand follow through that way00:52
lcukno crashanddie but MohammadAG51 is right, if you are distributing a binary blob of the GPL kernel00:53
lcukand modules etc00:53
lcukyou have to also follow the gpl00:53
MohammadAG51he's not the guy at fault here00:53
lcukand since you cannot supply the source yourself00:53
crashanddielcuk: sure I can00:53
lcukMohammadAG51, he will be if he distributes the binary00:53
crashanddielcuk: if you want, I'll send it to you tomorrow morning00:53
lcuki dont want it00:53
crashanddielcuk: it will compile no problem, into the .ko00:53
lcuki am not interested00:53
crashanddieJust be prepared to read ASM00:54
MohammadAG51GPL code can be legally disassembled I guess...00:54
lcukcontact the FSF00:54
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lcukr whoever you have to do00:54
crashanddieI don't give a shit00:55
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lcukbut don't compound it by re-distributing something you know if GPL as binary00:55
MohammadAG51lcuk, and if the person distributing the blob doesn't push the source?00:55
crashanddielcuk: and I'm not the author, I have no necessity to publish the source code00:55
crashanddieI haven't modified it, I'm not bound to publish anything00:55
keriocrashanddie: did you release neopwn?00:56
lcukread the license carefully00:56
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lcukcrashanddie, you have what you believe is offending binary code00:57
lcukfollow due process00:57
lcukand request source officially00:57
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crashanddieIt won't change squat shit00:57
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crashanddiegive me two weeks, and you'll have the source code, written by me.00:57
lcukthen report the violation back to the original copyright owner00:57
crashanddiein the meantime, I'm releasing what I have.00:58
lcukand let them deal with it00:58
crashanddieI don't care whether you like it or not00:58
crashanddieIf I remember, you're the one who didn't start liqbase as GPL in the first place00:58
crashanddieif I remember, you're the one who didn't release source code00:58
lcuki started it as closed source00:58
lcukyou are right00:58
lcukand I learnt about it00:58
lcukand I spent time finding out00:59
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crashanddieso don't come busting my nuts because I'm just pushing people over the edge rather than killing myself asking nicely for it00:59
lcukand it was a carefully considered decision00:59
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lcukcrashanddie, but this is already GPL code00:59
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crashanddieno, it's not.00:59
lcukme coming from a closed source world changes nothing00:59
crashanddiefor all we know, it isn't00:59
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lcukthen who has the copyright?00:59
crashanddieactually, I know, but you don't00:59
lcukbecause its not your binary00:59
crashanddiethere isn't any copyright provided with the binaries00:59
keriocan i have the binaries?01:00
crashanddiesure, email?01:00
crashanddiepm it01:00
MohammadAG51crashanddie, use strings on the .ko01:00
crashanddielcuk: I suspect it is GPL due to a transcript I've read, of swc|666 ranting in another channel01:00
crashanddieaww crap01:01
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MohammadAG51so, swc|666 should provide the sources of the blobs01:01
MohammadAG51otherwise he's violating the GPL01:01
SpeedEvilLicence=GPL does not mean that it is GPL licence.01:02
crashanddiewell, it is, actually01:02
kerioSpeedEvil: hard to think of something else01:02
crashanddieSpeedEvil: the driver is based off the wl1251 driver01:02
crashanddiewhich is GPL01:02
crashanddieand has been modified01:02
SpeedEvilthere have - for example - been cases when COPYING was distributed on DVDs that were not GPL01:02
crashanddieso the changes should be released01:02
SpeedEvilah - k01:02
MohammadAG51indeed, so it's not crashanddie violating the GPL here01:03
crashanddiewell, I understand lcuk's point01:03
SpeedEvilIt is if he's further redistributing.01:03
crashanddieI'm helping in the distribution of code that violates the GPL01:03
SpeedEvilIt's _everyones_ fault that redistributes without source.01:03
SpeedEvilAnd they all have the obligation to provide source.01:03
MohammadAG51then swc|666 has to do that, not crashanddie01:03
crashanddieSpeedEvil: does C code with the function list but ASM inside count as code?01:03
crashanddiecuz I have that01:04
SpeedEvilOf course - if they don't have it - that's tricky - but it's no different than a router maker that ships the router without GPL source as they weren't given it.01:04
crashanddieand it compiles (kinda)01:04
MohammadAG51well, can't crashanddie just change licenses?01:04
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crashanddieWell, I could just include a GPL licence with swc|666's details as the author, so he gets the problems, not me :P01:05
SpeedEvilBecause someone is violating GPL does not give you the right to that code.01:05
SpeedEvilIf I take mplayer, patch it and release it, I'm violating GPL.01:05
SpeedEvilhowever, you do not have the right to take that code, and slap a GPL on it - even if you have the actual code.01:05
MohammadAG51swc|666, mind pitching in?01:06
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SpeedEvilMe violating the license does not give you the licence to code I wrote.01:06
crashanddieok, and if I reverse engineer the ASM and re-implement it myself, am I still violating?01:06
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SpeedEvilThat's beyond my knowledge.01:07
wmaronecrashanddie: probably, but it could be argued that the code is "contaminted"01:07
crashanddiedo you mean "tainted"?01:07
SpeedEvilConsider though that you can do the same for windows.01:07
SpeedEvilAnd I'm sure Microsoft would be very unhappy.01:07
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SpeedEvil(though it would take a couple of weeks more than doing the wl* drivers)01:08
wmaronecrashanddie: iirc, that's the phrasing they used when reverse engineering the BIOS decades ago01:08
crashanddieexcept that Microsoft would attack me on other things01:08
crashanddiepatents, trademarks01:08
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SpeedEvilMy latest fun licence related realisation has been that if you have a TPM system - or one where the user can't access running binaries - you can get round GPL entirely by shipping the user the (encrypted) source, and compiling on device.01:10
SpeedEvilWhen it gets to the user.01:10
GAN900Seems like way too much work.01:10
SpeedEvilThe nasty licence conditions - requiring release of source code - are not triggered - as you're not distribting object, and you just have to say it's GPL.01:11
SpeedEvil(2 only)01:11
crashanddiethere is no notice saying I'm not allowed to reverse engineer/decompile. There is just a string that says "GPL". Microsoft's licence however says I'm not allowed to do such things.01:14
MohammadAG51i'm off01:14
crashanddienight MohammadAG5101:15
crashanddieI would've loved swc|666's input though.01:15
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SpeedEvilWithout the licence, the only - sanely legal - interpretation is that you have no licence to do anything other than the author implied01:17
SpeedEvilbut ...01:17
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crashanddieWell, sue me.01:21
crashanddieIf you manage to find out my home address, anyway.01:21
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alteregoHeh, there's two actors from BSG so far.01:29
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* luke-jr got banned from swc|666's channel for calling them out on it01:31
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crashanddietheir channel?01:32
luke-jrcrashanddie: ASM doesn't qualify as source unless it really is source. read the GPL01:33
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crashanddieand reverse engineering?01:33
luke-jr[16:55:57] <crashanddie> I haven't modified it, I'm not bound to publish anything01:33
luke-jrnot true, GPL requires you to publish it regardless01:33
luke-jror rather, include it01:33
crashanddieno I have to provide a way to get it01:33
luke-jrcrashanddie: reverse engineering is a fair use right01:33
crashanddieI can even ask for money for the "making available of the sources"01:33
kerioluke-jr: what if my asm really looks like something outputted by gcc?01:34
luke-jrcrashanddie: you have to include the source, or make it available to anyoen who asks (and include a notice saying so)01:34
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luke-jrkerio: GCC output isn't source01:34
crashanddieand GCC input?01:34
luke-jrcrashanddie: they have some channel… I don't know what it is anymore01:34
keriobut asm can be01:34
crashanddieAs I said, I have C code that compiles and produces the .ko01:34
luke-jrcrashanddie: source code is defined by the GPL as the preferred form of making modifications01:34
luke-jrcrashanddie: so it has to be the real source01:34
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luke-jrwith comments and everything01:35
crashanddieso if I reverse engineer it and re-implement it in the wl1251 code, I'm good01:35
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luke-jrcrashanddie: should be, but I think not on a technicality01:35
luke-jrthere's 2 ways to violate the GPL ;)01:35
luke-jr1. contract infringement01:35
luke-jr2. copyright infringement01:35
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luke-jrin both cases, though, swc|666 still owns the modifications01:36
crashanddieactually, he owns fuck all01:36
luke-jron the other hand, Copyright Law does protect your right to reverse engineer it by default01:36
crashanddiethe guy who wrote the modified driver owns everything01:36
luke-jrso unless he forced you to sign to not doing so…01:36
luke-jrcrashanddie: at least in the USA, if you're paid to do something, the person who paid you holds copyright01:36
crashanddienot true01:37
crashanddiedepends on the contract01:37
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luke-jrcontract can spell out other terms, but the default is the employer owns it01:37
crashanddieemployer being the keyword here01:38
crashanddieand unless there's an employer/employee relationship, there is no transfer of copyright01:38
crashanddienot defacto, anyway01:38
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luke-jrwell then, who wrote it? :P01:38
luke-jrtho presumably they provided swc|666 with the source up front01:39
luke-jrwhich means they have no obligation to send it01:39
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crashanddiehe never had the source if I understand it correctly01:40
crashanddieand won't until he finishes paying the dude01:40
luke-jrhe told me he paid for it out of pocket up front01:41
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crashanddieagain, this is my memory from an IRC transcript, but "the dude" said he'd release the source under GPL 6 months down the line anyway01:41
luke-jrI'm not sure the GPL has a time limit on fulfillign the request01:41
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crashanddiewell, my understanding is that he has creditors who, it's like a whole fucking mafia film01:42
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luke-jryeah, I don't see a time limit in the GPL01:42
luke-jrat least not GPL-201:43
luke-jrwhich means he could just take 6 months to fill any requests for source :/01:43
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luke-jrwow, that's a pretty gaping loophole…01:44
crashanddiewell, there you go. If anyone asks for the source, I'll just say "Due to high demand, we are expecting up to 12 months handling time. Please provide payment for postal services of delivery of the source code in advance"01:44
DocScrutinizeranyway, if you modify a GPL'd code, you have the obligation to deliver the code with the binary, but you're not obliged to publish the binary to anybody. So original author has a problem at max with neopwn dude01:44
luke-jrcrashanddie: you need to offer it up front. you can't wait for someone to ask01:44
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: not quite01:44
luke-jrthe code need not be delivered with the binary as long as you include an offer01:45
luke-jrand that offer has no time limit on filling it01:45
DocScrutinizereven that01:45
luke-jrjust on cost01:45
crashanddiewell, then my offer is as such: "Should you wish to access the source code, feel free to mail your request to <insert PO box here>"01:45
DocScrutinizerbut the point is, no binary, no code. and binary ships to anybody on *your* discretion01:45
luke-jr"Expected handling time is 2 years. Your request can be expediated to a week for a fee of $2000"01:46
crashanddieDocScrutinizer: except that swc|666 is shipping the binary to anyone who pays a fee01:46
DocScrutinizeroriginal author just shiped to neopwn, so also the source code will be shipped to neopwn01:46
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: if you go with the 'offer' option, you're obliged to honour a request from anyone, not just who you send the binary to.01:46
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: so that's his problem then, not original authors'01:47
SpeedEvilluke-jr: Only if they can find you.01:47
crashanddieluke-jr: which in this case, is near impossible01:47
luke-jrSpeedEvil: you're obliged regardless. but obviously you can't request w/o finding them :p01:47
SpeedEvilluke-jr: If you go and live as a hermit, they can't require you!01:47
crashanddieand if the offer to provide source code says swc|666 as the contact to obtain source code?01:48
DocScrutinizeraiui the requirement to offer source code is implicitly bound to the continuous act of shipping the binary. And also implicitly is limited to those receiving the binary, either directly or by third party, as long as you are still involved in the shipping01:53
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DocScrutinizerGPL is tailored against commerce, not primarily against somebody uploading a modified binary to rapidshare01:55
crashanddieso as soon as I upload it, and say I'm done, I'm no longer bound to provide source code?01:55
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: uh, no01:55
crashanddieConsidering I'm01:56
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: FSF encourages commerce01:56
crashanddieConsidering I'm "no longer involved in the shipping"01:56
crashanddieI've got the initial code01:56
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: why do you think you ever were ? you got the binary under any contract mentioning GPL?01:56
luke-jrthen you can't upload it period01:56
luke-jrthat's copyright infringement01:56
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DocScrutinizercrashanddie: so why do you bother about GPL then?01:57
crashanddieI'll just diff the initial branch code with the one that works for injection01:57
DocScrutinizermaybe the code has nothing to do with GPL at all01:57
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: "b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give *any third party*, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange;"01:57
crashanddieand reimplement the features that are missing01:57
crashanddie"machine-readable copy"01:57
crashanddieOK, I know how i'll do this01:58
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: third party is anybody *involved* in the issue, so I can't ask for source of which I never got a binary01:58
luke-jr"The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it.  For an executable work, complete source code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable."01:58
crashanddiedunno if tomorrow will be enough01:58
crashanddieluke-jr: yeah yeah, it's all good01:58
crashanddieluke-jr: I'll provide all that01:59
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: no, "You" means anybody receiving the binary.01:59
luke-jrwait, not quite in this context01:59
luke-jrI suppose it can be argued to be ambiguous.02:00
luke-jrbut "any third party" certainly seems to be more vauge than "any recipient"02:00
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vanadismobileis there a local logfile for mail for exchange?02:02
vanadismobilei just got an exchange server error and it's not synchronising02:02
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DocScrutinizercrashanddie: you're perfectly safe to publish in whatever form you like. You received a binary, maybe repackaged it, and distribute a binary. You never signed or accepted any contract. So if anybody comes and tries to prove your binary being a copy of his copyrighted work, you can shoot back and prove it's a derived work from a GPL'd source and you're free to distribute this work, as original author of the original binary you copied can't02:07
DocScrutinizerexplain how he can legally violate GPL on his binary but otoh request you to obey a copyright he obviously doesn't hold02:07
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DocScrutinizerand you got no liabilities to anybody but the 'copyright holder' of that binary02:09
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: you can't just redistribute/publish any binary you receive02:10
DocScrutinizersure you can, see crashanddie - he does02:10
luke-jrand you wouldn't be infringing just on swc's copyright, but all the copyright holders to the wl12xx driver02:10
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: illegally02:10
DocScrutinizeryou just have to prepare to get sued for it02:10
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luke-jrso much for 'perfectly safe'02:10
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luke-jrwhere did he publish it, anyhow?02:11
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: you're not aware of any other copyright holders02:11
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: irrelevant.02:11
luke-jryou don't need to be aware of the copyright holders to infringe on it02:11
luke-jrby default, you cannot publish any software unless you made it yourself from scratch02:12
DocScrutinizerofc any of the original (C) holders (the real ones) can sue you02:12
luke-jreven if there's no copyright declared on it02:12
DocScrutinizerand you'll happily add his GPL and (C) notice, and the parts of code he claims is his02:12
luke-jrI would venture to guess that no original copyright holder of wl12xx would sue crashanddie, since it's not really his fault02:13
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DocScrutinizerand if that'S not enough you have to stop publishing, as you don't have any better source02:13
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DocScrutinizerluke-jr: the term 'you can not' is largely inadequate in this stage of discussion02:14
crashanddieDocScrutinizer: yeah, that's what I figured for some time now02:14
crashanddieDocScrutinizer: I'm going to release the binary form, and then work on re-implementing it myself if neopwn doesn't want to release02:14
* luke-jr ponders if hex editing a binary arguably makes it the 'source code' if you have nothing more readable02:14
DocScrutinizereven that02:14
luke-jrcrashanddie: if I were you, I'd just check with the original copyright holders first02:15
luke-jrcrashanddie: get their blessing02:15
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: DAMN, who are they???02:15
crashanddieluke-jr: the link I showed earlier are the original copyright holders02:15
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: oh you were serious?02:15
crashanddieI'm going to use that code, and will be able to fill in the gaps easily02:15
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: you can'tknow who they are02:15
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: why not?02:16
crashanddieHow hard can it be?02:16
luke-jrit's part of mainline02:16
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DocScrutinizeruhuh, says who?02:16
DocScrutinizeryou compared the binary to some original mainline module?02:16
luke-jrcrashanddie did, as I underrstand it02:17
crashanddieDocScrutinizer: I decompiled the binary, and am cutting through it as we speak02:17
DocScrutinizerno, he's going to do that, and as soon as he gets to know I'm sure he'll let the authors know what's going on02:17
crashanddiepasting the GPL code that is available and noticing the mismatches between the GPL code and the ASM code02:17
luke-jrcrashanddie: did their binary happen to have a string identifying the exact compiler used?02:18
luke-jryou could conceivably do a binary diff on it ;)02:18
DocScrutinizeruntil then he's free to distribute the binary and wait to get sued by swc, what never will happen02:18
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: or any other copyright holder02:18
crashanddieluke-jr: how would that help?02:18
crashanddieluke-jr: oh, in noticing where the changes are?02:18
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luke-jrcrashanddie: exactly02:19
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: just for not including GPL02:19
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: for not including the source code02:19
DocScrutinizerfuck, that's BS, he has no src02:19
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: GPL says in that case, you cannot distribute at all02:19
crashanddieluke-jr: except I don't have the GPL at all with the binaries02:19
crashanddieluke-jr: so how am I supposed to enforce it?02:19
luke-jrcrashanddie: anyhow, like I said, I'd suggest emailing the wl12xx original authors, summarizing the violation, and asking for them to release you from the GPL in this instance02:19
DocScrutinizertell me where that's written please. And then prove to me how GPL is to apply to a unknown binary02:20
luke-jrcrashanddie: you can't enforce it.02:20
luke-jrcrashanddie: legally, you can't distribute the binary at all02:20
crashanddiesays who?02:20
luke-jrcrashanddie: Copyright Law and GPL02:20
crashanddieI was given the binary, with the mention "Do with it as you please, I'm washing my hands off it"02:20
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: again, if you assume it's not GPL, then you can't distribute it period under any conditions02:20
DocScrutinizerwho cares about GPL02:20
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luke-jrDocScrutinizer: f u02:21
DocScrutinizerluke-jr:  I can whole day long02:21
crashanddiechill guys02:21
DocScrutinizerwho's going to stop me?02:21
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luke-jrDocScrutinizer: with that attitude, I'd sue you if I held the copyright.02:21
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: for sure NOT you02:21
DocScrutinizeryou don't02:22
lcukholy shit02:22
crashanddieok, no need to get personal02:22
lcukliqflow on livewp single view is awesome02:22
crashanddielcuk: yeah, you launched a hairy topic, it's still going strong02:22
lcuki didn't launch it02:22
luke-jrGPL: "If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence *you may not distribute the Program at all*."02:22
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: stop quoting irrelevant nonsense02:23
DocScrutinizerthe binary isn't under GPL, that's the whole point02:23
crashanddielcuk: pretty sure you did guv :P 23:50 < lcuk> crashanddie, i hate to break it to you, but how do you know that the binary you are about to distribute is based on the open code?  (devils advocate here, you could be committing just as much a sin as you say this guy is doing)02:23
luke-jrfine then02:23
luke-jrCopyright Law: """" You may not distribute the program at all, period, unless you have permission from the copyright holder."02:23
lcukcrashanddie, oh, that yeah.02:23
luke-jr"""" = paraphrased02:23
lcukand DocScrutinizer - there is reasonable doubt since everyone was bitching that its exactly what happened02:24
crashanddieluke-jr: again, that depends on the country02:24
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: and who's going to sue me?02:24
lcuki merely observed that crashanddie would be in the same situation02:24
luke-jrcrashanddie: every country I know of defaults to "you cannot distribute"02:24
crashanddielcuk: aye02:24
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: any copyright holder02:24
* DocScrutinizer shrugs02:24
DocScrutinizerwe've been there twice before02:25
crashanddieluke-jr: Kazakhstan copyright law doesn't.02:25
luke-jrso move to Kazakhstan02:25
lcukseriously though crashanddie - liqflow is behind everything on the desktop, its awesome02:25
crashanddiedidn't you know? I live there.02:25
crashanddieI mean here.02:25
crashanddielcuk: how so?02:26
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: you don't know who's copyright holder, you don't know which copyright the binary is under. So you can't assume anything in advance...02:26
lcukvasvlad has added live wallpapers, and he spent time adding support for any application, liqbase ones as well02:26
DocScrutinizerbut honestly, seeya peeps02:26
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: in that case, you can't distribute it period02:26
lcukso it lives behind all the icons and stuff02:26
lcukand runs at its full speed :)02:26
DocScrutinizerperiod yourself. I can02:26
crashanddielcuk: oooh, shiny02:26
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lcukcrashanddie, it includes all the x11screensavers too!02:28
lcukabout 100 of them :D02:28
SpeedEvillcuk: Oook!02:28
SpeedEvilI want xlock -inroot -mode flame...02:28
lcukxflame  Yes  Continuous  High
lcukSpeedEvil, ^02:32
lcuktheres the list of the xscreensavers with notes about cpu use etc02:32
lcukof course, theres also gas balls in ovi store as well02:33
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lcukwhich is opengl based02:33
alteregoI like gas balls02:33
alteregoI might work on something similar once I've plowed through my projects.02:33
lcuktechnically you can take any standard app02:33
lcukand add a config file02:34
lcukand it will be runnable in the livewp02:34
* SpeedEvil ponders.02:34
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lcukSpeedEvil, its got movie support anyway02:36
lcukthats another feature lol02:36
lcukhe just added the "one wallpaper for all desktops tweak02:37
SpeedEvilA 'live' virtual sky background would be awesome.02:37
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SpeedEvilBut for that, I'd need to install the compass.02:37
lcukSpeedEvil, i think someone already did a video for that02:37
lcukit doesnt have to be that real :P02:37
lcuknice thing02:37
lcukit supports up/down strokes02:37
lcukso i might put calendar on there or something02:38
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lcukas it stands now whilst swiping the desktop, i am loving liqflow flowing :D02:39
lcuki should make the strokes erode with time02:39
lcukso that the flow slows back down02:39
alteregoI wrote a nice little QWidget that allows horziontal or vertical view swiping.02:41
alteregoBeen using it in my apps.02:41
lcukalterego, cool beans02:41
alteregoIt is a really cool UX design pattern02:42
alteregoI feel quite cool doing it :)02:42
lcukdoes it move to next "tile" like the desktop does02:42
lcukor swipe continuous02:42
alteregoIt slides to the next tile.02:42
lcukwow, the YUV overlay even shows through transparency on widgets02:43
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lcukMohammadAG51, whats the simplest way to flash the led light (any colour?)02:50
alteregoAll done via dbus02:51
alteregoI thought02:51
alteregoYou can get it to execute any of the patterns in the mce config file.02:52
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SpeedEvillcuk: echo > file02:54
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SpeedEvilOr yes - dbus if you just want it to flash and any pattern is OK02:55
lcuki just want to make it flash for a quick test in the frame renderer02:55
lcukto make sure when screensaver comes on02:55
lcukit actually stops02:55
lcukerrr screen dims02:56
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alteregoCheck out fcam02:57
alteregoSee how they do it.02:57
lcukits ok02:57
lcuki just running top over ssh02:57
lcukwas thinking overly complex02:57
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alteregolcuk: easy:
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lcukcool, thanks03:02
lcukalterego, :D am done though, cpu drops at the expected times (ie whenever desktop obscured, or screen is off)03:02
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alteregofair nuff03:03
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ShadSECAnyone has a tree of full untouched PR1.2 rootfs with md5sums of each file?03:47
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ShadSECwhats the right way to ship some app for n900? To have it all on a /opt/ subdir and then create symlinks on /usr/bin, etc ?04:00
lcukyes thats a reasonable mechanism, to get the pr1.2 files, you could extract the image by the way04:01
SpeedEvilthat's annoying, as it's a UBIFS image04:02
SpeedEviland you've got to do a stupid dance.04:02
ShadSECthx, i thought about maybe doing that but perhaps someone already had a lists of checksums04:03
lcukyeah someone mightv, but not seen it myself04:03
lcukanyway, gnite04:03
ShadSECnight lcuk04:03
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SpeedEvil meant to generate one when I flashed - but I forgort.04:04
ShadSECWould be useful to have an script search for and tell all differences from time to time04:04
ShadSECto check for apps not doing its job....04:05
ShadSECI only have 23MB free on rotfs04:05
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SpeedEvilgfind / -mount -ctime -2004:07
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ShadSECmmmm, right!04:08
ShadSECwhat the difference between gfind and find btw?04:09
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SpeedEvilgfind is the gnu find04:11
SpeedEvilfind is the broken busybox one04:11
SpeedEvilapt-get install findutils04:11
ShadSECyep, i had it installed, I thought it was just replacing the symlinks for busybox with the real tools04:14
ShadSECdidn't know about the g prefix04:14
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ShadSECugh, there are lots of offenders :S04:28
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ShadSECgezz, whats wrong with the people, it isnt that hard to place the files in the right place04:54
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airis there a way to show what packages have been installed from each repository?05:12
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fredrinn900 ftw06:00
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fredrinDocScrutinizer, ping06:00
fredrinDocScrutinizer, what's your swappiness?06:01
fredrinand /proc/sys/vm/page-cluster?06:02
fredrinand /proc/sys/vm/page-cluster06:02
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fredrinany way, hope all is good DocScrutinizer06:08
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ShadowJK5 page-cluster 100 sw0piness is default on n90006:10
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ShadowJK0 page-cluseter sounds, well, very stupid06:12
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fredrinShadowJK, know06:14
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PsyCl0neHi all could someone direct me to where I could get help with my E71 please.06:15
fredrinonly bad thing it got too sensitive in my pocket06:15
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fredrinnokia care06:15
PsyCl0neThank you06:16
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CiNc018can i get some help please06:16
fredrinthat will be 100¤06:17
fredrinwhat problem is?06:18
CiNc018im trying to rebirth my n80006:18
johnxthat sounds painful, and may involve medical complications06:19
CiNc018my n800 is stuck on a constant reboot06:19
PsyCl0neExecuse me fredrin nothing comes up for nokia care06:19
CiNc018i dont understand fredrin06:20
ShadowJKCiNc018, it starts rebooting when you plug in charger?06:20
fredrinPsyCl0ne, insurans then06:20
johnxCiNc018: is it backed up? do you just want to reflash it?06:20
CiNc018nah it starts reboot when i turn it on06:20
fredrinbeer in keyboard?06:20
johnxPsyCl0ne: he means: nokia customer service06:20
CiNc018i want to reeflash it. nothing important on there06:20
PsyCl0ne*facepalm* ok thank you06:20
CiNc018ju velcome06:21
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CiNc018now i have it on update mode.... and i have maemo flasher 3.5 open already06:21
johnxPsyCl0ne: there may also be a symbian channel. they might be able to help there06:21
CiNc018so u dont know about reflashing it?06:23
PsyCl0nejohnx: ah thanks06:23
fredrinonly done reflash on Openmoko freerunner06:23
fredrintakes time06:23
CiNc018i have time...06:24
fredrintime is good06:24
CiNc018since im watchign dragon ball z06:24
bef0rduhm it was something like that06:24
bef0rd:( bad bot infobot06:24
fredrinflash or gtfo06:24
ShadowJKiirc I started flashed, connected usb cable, started N8x0, to flash them..06:25
ShadowJKor maybe it wasn't u, it was something else on n8x006:25
fredrinwT N8X006:26
luke-jrCiNc018: does NOLO work?06:26
CiNc018im having trouble understanding the how to on maemo.org06:26
CiNc018wats nolo?06:26
CiNc018im newe to all this sorry06:26
infobotfirmware is probably hardware that is beginning to melt  Firmware for GrandStream phones is at
* fredrin drunk :D06:27
luke-jrwtf do GrandStream phones have to do with N900?06:27
fredrinno se06:27
infoboti heard flashing is
nox-i think that bot is in like 500 #s so maybe some factoids got mixed up :)06:28
CiNc018yes thats what im reading now...06:28
ShadowJKevery channel infobot sits in thinks infobot doesn't sit in any other channel06:28
CiNc018thats the site im on right now.06:28
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fredrininfobot is a nerd06:28
luke-jr[22:29:20] [Whois] infobot is a user on channels: #asterisk06:29
luke-jr[22:29:20] [Whois] infobot has voice on channels: #maemo06:29
luke-jrguess ~firmware is for #asterisk06:29
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CiNc018i have my n800 on update mode and connected to usb06:29
CiNc018so how do i start flashing this device?06:30
luke-jrREAD IT06:30
bef0rdCiNc018, you must start flasher-3.5 first, and when it says waiting for usb device, you plug the n80006:30
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luke-jrjust leave it plugged in the whole time06:31
CiNc018okay ... let me do it like u said06:31
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luke-jrrun flasher and it should catch the next reboot06:31
CiNc018so i shouldnt put my n800 in update mode?06:31
luke-jrCiNc018: how would you do that?06:32
bef0rdI had to press the swap button for my n810 when turning it on, not sure about the n80006:33
CiNc018well first devise is off and usb is unplugged06:33
CiNc018wats a swap button?06:33
airapp switcher06:34
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luke-jrbef0rd: there is no swap button…06:35
CiNc018wat does this mean? <arg>06:35
luke-jrthat key06:36
luke-jrnever had to press it..06:36
luke-jrCiNc018: nevermind, just plug the USB in, run flasher, and turn it on06:36
luke-jrCiNc018: note that plugging power in = turn on06:36
luke-jralso be aware your battery is probably useless by now06:37
luke-jras in, it will probably be dead within 5 minutes from a full charge06:38
luke-jrat least mine is06:38
luke-jrand I jsut got it spring 2009 (N810)06:38
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airmy first n810 battery lasted 1.5 years and then it doubled in size and only lasted 30 minutes06:39
luke-jrdoubled in size?06:40
CiNc018okay i did wat u said, and flasher said flashing compl;ete06:40
CiNc018now what06:40
airthe battery thickness doubled06:40
luke-jrCiNc018: now reboot it06:40
luke-jrair: wtf06:40
CiNc018disconnect usb?06:40
luke-jrand power06:41
airit didn't explode so all was good :)06:41
luke-jralso, unplug your computer, and lights06:41
luke-jrturn everything else off, then go to sleep06:41
luke-jrand forget the N800 ever existed06:41
luke-jrwhen you wake up in the morning, it will be as good as new06:41
CreamyGhaha wow i would have thrown that battery out06:41
CiNc018rofl lmfao06:42
luke-jrdon't forget to brush your teeth and stuff06:42
CiNc018the stuff is brushed i guess i did it backwards06:42
airCreamyG: only after the battery cover was bulged and would no longer stay shut :)06:42
CreamyGyeah i would have thought it would do that right before it explodes...06:43
luke-jror leaks acid all over you06:43
luke-jrso you have to go to the ER06:43
CreamyGbut i guess that's the kind of quality you get with a genuine nokia battery06:43
luke-jrand get your hand amputated06:43
luke-jrthen you need speech recognition because you can't type06:43
luke-jrwhich Maemo doesn't have06:43
luke-jrso you need to go spend money on Android06:43
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CreamyGli-po is a lot safer, the e71 BP-4L is like that06:44
CiNc018i think ill sell my n800 and get an archos tablet06:44
luke-jrCiNc018: don't expect more than $100 or so06:44
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luke-jrif that much06:45
GeneralAntillesCiNc018, be warned the Archos isn't at all hacker friendly.06:45
CiNc018im doing it for 20006:45
luke-jrCiNc018: nobody will buy06:45
PsyCl0neill give you S=H06:45
CiNc018grrr.  then i hate archos... so what is hacker friendly :-)06:45
CreamyGhaha it's not a phone man06:45
luke-jrCiNc018: Freerunner06:45
GeneralAntillesCiNc018, N900 is reasonably hacker friendly, although not the same sort of device.06:45
GeneralAntillesFreerunner is the most of the group06:46
GeneralAntillesbut it's really old hardware.06:46
luke-jrFreerunner is a phone though06:46
GeneralAntillesMight wait to see where the N9 goes.06:46
GeneralAntillesAs it'll drop prices at the very least.06:46
luke-jrN9 is supposed to be more open?06:46
CiNc018hey i wonder if i can install android on my n800?>06:46
luke-jrCiNc018: hahaha06:46
CiNc018wa? lol06:46
* luke-jr never understood why one would want Android on a N8x006:47
CreamyGthere's an old nitdroid for n800 but i'd not want that either06:47
luke-jrit's not like it will grow cellular capability06:47
CiNc018i just like to hack my gadgets...06:47
luke-jrCiNc018: Freerunner has some interesting new developments if you want a phone06:48
CiNc018i do it for the amazement lol06:48
CiNc018let me youtube freerunner06:48
CreamyGyeah i bought stuff for my n800 to make it into a web based power relay switch so i can turn my desktop computer on and off with it06:48
luke-jrthey're getting the cellular modem firmware replaced with an open one06:48
CiNc018i hope its not a person who is running freely06:48
CiNc018openmoko neo freerunner? thats the full name of it06:49
CiNc018awww it looks like a tablet gave birth to it06:50
CiNc018i had an hp tc 1000 and traded it for my n800 i have now06:52
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luke-jrI wouldn't trade my SL-C760 for any other device so far06:53
luke-jrunfortunately, its battery is useless too06:53
CiNc018oooo wat it is?06:54
luke-jrmaybe 8-10 years old now06:54
luke-jrhandheld computer06:54
luke-jrcost me like $800-$900 back in the day06:54
luke-jrbut had the best keyboard ever06:55
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CiNc018and now its worth a bag of special pretzels?06:56
Xisdibikluke whose the person who made the marina theme, i forgot :/06:56
luke-jrI'd still use it if the battery wasn't dead… and it had more RAM :/06:56
luke-jrXisdibik: wtf is that06:57
Xisdibika theme for the N90006:57
luke-jrhow would I know06:57
luke-jrI use defaults06:57
luke-jrlike always06:57
Xisdibikbecause your here all the tim :P06:57
luke-jrand I would have accepted 'tim'06:57
Xisdibikand u pay attention to detail ^06:57
luke-jrcuz Tonal time is in units of 'tim's06:57
* Xisdibik pokes luke-jr with some sigh06:58
luke-jrif I'm here all the time06:58
luke-jrthat means I'm here too much06:58
luke-jrso I better go06:58
luke-jrdo something productive06:58
Xisdibikwe love you being here06:58
luke-jrhaha yeah right06:58
luke-jrexcept when everyone wants my head on a platter06:59
Xisdibikwhich is never......(always?)06:59
CiNc018hey luke. do u know if there was ever a solution for the hardware bug the n800 has when the screen starts scrolling?07:00
Xisdibikif it wasnt you luke i think it was probably lcuk or else ive totally forgot07:00
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luke-jrCiNc018: nhoi07:02
air -- someone give me a name for this app i'm writing07:07
CiNc018u dont know07:07
airi need a name for it07:07
CreamyGthats not really a hardware bug, it's the key repeating problem, a wontfix for diablo :|07:08
airXisdibik: that name sucks but it gave me a good idea :)07:13
Xisdibikair: that was my goal :)07:13
XisdibikIf I gave you a GOOD name, then id require royalties and such ;)07:14
airwill do, please send me you bank account info for the deposits ;)07:15
XisdibikI didnt give you a good name, just helped you get your own good idea, so no royalties needed ;)07:16
airthats good, free software never produces any royalties07:17
Xisdibikmmmhmmm ;)07:17
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Macerok. you know. i know i've been bashing my n900 and maemo for a while now.. but i just did something that made it like when i installed cyanogen on my G1 and turned the G1 into a whole new ballgame08:01
Maceri installed the google voice plugin LOL08:01
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Macerand the gv txt msging.. with its conversations integration made my n900 worthwhile all over again LOL08:02
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Maceri seriously wish nokia would reconsider its stance on maemo :)08:05
luke-jrwhat stance is that? death?08:05
* MohammadAG51 seriously wishes nokia would take its hands off maemo08:06
ljpmy n900 still works08:06
luke-jrljp: how?08:07
ljpfairly sure the rest of the n900's out there wont stop working either08:07
luke-jrcellmo had a time bomb that disabled it at midnight local time today08:07
RST38hmoo all08:08
SwedeMikenow that the HTC Desire Z has been announced, there at least is a qwerty Android phone, that'd be a nice backup in case Nokia doesn't come thru.08:08
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ljpcome through with what?08:11
luke-jrSwedeMike: as if there haven't been QWERTY Android phones before?08:11
luke-jrSwedeMike: also, qwerty = crap08:11
SwedeMikeluke-jr: not good ones .08:11
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luke-jrSwedeMike: are you implying Nokia has had any good ones?08:12
SwedeMikeljp: come thru with a decent phone. I don't like what I'm seeing from meego so far.08:12
SwedeMikeluke-jr: well, there are bad and worse.08:12
luke-jrI want to try a handheld with DEIS keyboard :P08:13
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SwedeMikewhat is a DEIS keyboard?08:13
luke-jroptimized for thumb typing08:14
SwedeMikethat looks like a lot of keys... one needs small thumbs :P08:14
luke-jrnot really08:15
luke-jrplenty of keyboard space08:15
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SwedeMikewell, I just counted that the N900 has 13 keys, so I guess without the numeric keys it'll be ok08:16
SwedeMikethat one only has 10 keys on the qwerty row08:16
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luke-jrN900 has the worst keyboard ever08:18
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luke-jrit makes N810's keyboard look good08:18
luke-jrand N810's kb was pretty bad already08:18
dr34mhm down ?08:18
SwedeMikeN900 is my only qwerty phone, I don't have anything to compare to. I think it's decent...08:18
luke-jrN900 isn't even a phone08:18
dr34maptget is giving me unable to resolve .. tho connected via wifi08:19
luke-jrsee the jpg I just linked for C76008:19
* jpinx-eeepc is happy withthe n900 asa phone08:19
fralsSwedeMike: you have to remember who you are talking to, there a few here who have nothing but bad stuff to say about nokia ;)08:19
fralsSwedeMike: but for some reason they stick around anyway08:19
SwedeMikefrals: m.08:19
derfThe keys on the N900 keyboard are easier to press than the N810's.08:19
derfThat is its ownly advantage.08:19
jpinx-eeepcderf: use the virtual kbd?08:22
pigeoninteresting, on my n900 now running vlc will simply crashes hildon-desktop and itself...08:23
infobotpigeon meant: interesting, on my n900 now running vlc will simply crash hildon-desktop and itself...08:24
jpinx-eeepcpigeon: I run vlc in a chroot without issues08:26
pigeonha, it only crashes if i start vlc from the launcher icon.08:26
pigeoncommand line is  fine.08:27
pigeoni wodner if it's related to the fact that the launcher isn't displaying the icon for vlc properly.08:28
* jpinx-eeepc has not explored the launchers methods08:28
air -- anyone with an n8x0 and _no_ rotation support wanna test that and tell me if it works?08:29
TermanaI had to reflash my N900 today, completely. For some reason it completely screwed itself :P08:30
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ruskieShapeshifter, I think I had problems when I tried it last time08:30
Termanaluke-jr, I thought you were strongly opposed to using anything closed source? Why are there Windows files scattered around your directory08:32
Termana? :P08:32
TermanaI've discovered his secret double-life.08:33
luke-jrTermana: ⁇?08:35
Termanaluke-jr, I thought I'd do some stalking^W^W^W looking around on and I found a heap of windows stuff08:35
luke-jrwhere at?08:35
Termanalike /tmp/win32 is one place08:36
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* luke-jr wonders what those exes are08:36
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luke-jrcareful, there's at least a good chance they're viruses08:37
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Termanaluke-jr, I don't run Windows (nor use Wine) anyway, so I can't try and run them :P08:37
* luke-jr has been known to collect viruses from time to time08:37
luke-jrsometimes even raise them in a sandbox08:37
Termanaluke-jr, you know that would seem like an effective way to spread a virus. Infect yourself and then let it automatically seek out its next victim. As soon as you know it's spammed enough people or whatever to get someone, just kill it. Better then trying to do legwork yourself to get someone infected :P08:39
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Termanalcuk, it's nice to see some sort of POSITIVE thread on tmo for once08:45
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ShadSECis there any liblocation -> gpsd emulation program?08:59
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rmrfchikTermana: what thread?09:13
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Termanarmrfchik, responses have been positive as well09:14
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rmrfchikTermana: it's just because this thread is about maemo, not nokia ;)09:19
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sejohmm is it possible to have the n90 sync it's time with the cell operator?09:30
asjpref->date&time->update automatically09:31
sejoasj and how do i force it?09:34
sejoI've set it to update but still way not correct09:34
sejoI'll switch off and restart once09:34
asjtry going offline/online09:35
asjyou've checked your timezeon?09:35
sejothat is correct09:35
sejolet's see what a reboot does09:36
asjof course your network maybe wrong or may not support it09:37
asj(which means you can always install openntpd from extras)09:39
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sejoI'm trying to change the regional settings and reverting back09:40
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rmrfchikasj: hmm, i thought this is about ntp, not gsm09:44
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asjrmrfchik: if your gsm network doesn't provide time (which I think I've run into) nothing you do will make time from gsm you have to look at alternatives.09:46
rmrfchikasj: so, "date&time->update automatically" has no relation with NTP?09:46
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asjrmrfchik: afaik, no09:47
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lindi-how does getting time from gsm network actually work? I always assumed it just synced the time based on headers of an incoming SMS09:48
asjlindi-: I tried googling's not an easy topic to turn up info on09:48
lindi-asj: I've been trying to find out for the last two years :)09:49
rmrfchiklindi-: there is special GSM service for this09:50
asjlindi-: I'm sure you can be the standard... ;) there's an open gsm portion out there now, was used at burning man...not sure the right term or bits, but maybe it's there in code09:51
rmrfchikwhen I go out of russia with my (old) mobile phone, it usual ask me "wow, I can sync time with mobile operator!"09:51
rmrfchikno such service on russia is provided ;(09:51
lindi-asj: I did try searching the standards I got from 3gpp, at least I have not found an AT command for this09:52
lindi-asj: and yes, I tried looking at it in openbts too09:52
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lindi-rmrfchik: do you know if there are an AT commands for that?09:53
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asj is the only thing I could find, and it's useless09:53
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rmrfchiklindi-: no09:54
rmrfchiklindi-: i mean "don't know"09:54
rmrfchiklindi-: i suppose this is not on AT level, but on GSM level09:54
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lindi-rmrfchik: hmm09:54
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lindi-asj: yeah AT+CCLK starts from zero on ti calypso (as included in openmoko freerunner) and I have never seen it update time from network09:56
asjlindi-: pfft, no the n900 bit isn't open either, which is too bad09:57
lindi-rmrfchik: ok. do you know if n900 can do this? if yes, how does it set the system time?09:57
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rmrfchiklindi-: don't know10:02
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Stskeepsmorn achipa10:12
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achipamorn stskeeps10:18
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Stskeepsmorn andre__10:24
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Milo-dang that updater application is slow these days10:48
Milo-takes gazillion years to update the manifest.10:48
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dnearyX-Fade, Ping?10:59
Khertan Morning all11:00
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sejodoes the nitdroid autoinstaller install on the extra microSD or on the internal one?11:05
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Milo-someone talking about that heree11:06
Milo-I was just reading upon that11:06
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sejoMilo I test everything :p11:06
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Milo-btw, why does the maemo5 alarm clock suck so much? I mean, my phone is supposed to be a smartphone, but if I don't react to the alarm in 1 minute, it goes silent, and never beeps again11:07
Milo-which is why I am constantly 'late' from work.11:07
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Milo-is there a better alarm clock application, which doesn't stop beeping until I tell it to stop beeping?11:07
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airsure, blame it on your phone :)11:07
Termana"Maemo 5 is so bad, it makes me late for work!"11:08
Milo-My clock is supposed to ring at 6:00 AM, when I finally wake up, my alarm clock's 'snooze / stop' option is still active, but no sound is coming from the phone11:08
Milo-and it still shows the time as "6:00"11:08
Milo-proves I haven't touched the damn thing.11:08
Milo-and yet the time is actually something like 8:00 AM when I wake up11:08
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Milo-so yeah, I have very little faith in my phone's alarm clock at the moment11:09
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X-FadeHehe "Click to read 18414 more words" :)11:09
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Milo-but noone knows a better alarm clock for n900?11:11
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airmight be for diablo if its not in your default repo11:12
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rmrfchik"as you are eligible to vote".11:20
rmrfchikhmm, how voters are choosen?11:20
crashanddiermrfchik: karma11:21
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merlin1991hm what's the difference between the opengl superbible and the red book?11:45
Milo-the red book could be 'the red dragon book', which is a book about compilers and compiler designs :)11:46
Milo-and the bible probably has something to do with religion11:46
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Milo-compilers are real, bible is fictional11:46
merlin1991srly, reading the descriptions for both books they seem to be mostly identical11:47
merlin1991(content wise)11:47
valdynthe red book should be the official book from the khronos group11:47
valdyn...which is the opengl standard group11:47
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merlin1991there you have both books again :D11:53
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ShapeshifterI see. :(11:59
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Shapeshifterruskie: I see :(11:59
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JaffaMorning, all12:19
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kerioSpeedEvil: :O12:21
kerioTHROWN HOOPS12:22
kerioTHE FUCK12:22
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ShadSECMmmmm, neopwn store is closed now: "Please check back for the public release of the project."12:47
ShadSECMaybe this means he will be releasing the source code soon?12:47
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seifhey guys12:48
seifis there an easy reliable way to make screencasts for my mameo device12:48
seifvnc is too slow12:48
seifand load-applet kinda messes up the recording (video is quiker then audio)12:48
lcukahhh screencasts :$12:50
lcukmorning Jaffa \o12:51
lcukdid you manage to find yourself an N8 then?12:51
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viszdoes recordmydesktop work?12:54
viszi use that on my desktop debian12:56
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lcukvisz, it might well work if you try and build it, but I dont think it has been done to date12:57
lcukand doesn't that use vnc under the hood?12:57
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viszdon't think so12:58
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infobotI'm on 12 channels: #debian/701, #maemo/497, #/25, ##essy/16, ##guleague/14, ##pxe/7, ##bz-inc/4, ##bspress/3, ##icf/3, ##ols/3, ##t42/213:00
infoboti've cached 1275 users, 1215 unique users, distributed over 12 channels.13:00
KhertanHum still not vote token in my email inbox :(13:01
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infobotI'm on 41 channels: #debian/703, #maemo/497, #kde/369, #asterisk/226, #htc-linux/128, #bzflag/57, #asterisk-dev/53, #elinux/31, #/25, #asterisk-bugs/24, ##kierra/23, #brlcad/21, #buglabs/17, #bzflag-chat/16, ##essy/16, #hawkboard/15, ##guleague/14, #asterisk-doc/11, ##ducleague/10, #debianppc/10, #infobot/10, #debian-france/9, #arl/9, #elive/8, #debian-bots/8, #flyspray/7, ##pxe/7, #botpark/6, #fredlug/5, #arm-netbook/4, ##bz-inc/4, ##ols/3, ##icf/3, ...13:02
infoboti've cached 2363 users, 2000 unique users, distributed over 41 channels.13:02
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rmrfchik~seen rmrfchik13:02
infobotrmrfchik is currently on #maemo. Has said a total of 1 messages. Is idling for 1s, last said: '~seen rmrfchik'.13:02
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defraggeris it possible, that chmod doesnt work under n900?13:11
DocScrutinizeris it possible you tried chmod to a VFAT based file?13:12
defraggeruh lemme check :D13:12
Jaffalcuk: Yeah. Still Symbian, but I'm planning on trying some Qt Mobility cross-platform dev13:12
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defraggeruhm MyDocs is vfat...13:14
DocScrutinizerknown factoid13:15
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KhertanJaffa, when you said "pushing for more Qt-based development and integration which can give us cross-platform applications." are you thinking of c++/qt only or all languages and using qt framework ?13:16
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JaffaKhertan: All. I'm all for developer flexibility13:17
JaffaKhertan: Certainly I prefer Python over C++ (but I'm going to give the SDK with C++ a good test before finally deciding my own personal language of choice)13:17
JaffaKhertan: And that expands to allowing things like having inter-package dependencies in "MeeGo compliant" packages. See the discussion on meego-dev about this recently.13:18
lcukJaffa, good to hear :) I have been playing with qt mobility myself recently :)13:19
lcukwhat colour did you get?13:19
Khertani ask because finally some details make some differences as we got a long list of good Candidates :)13:19
Khertanthx for the answer :) (i like it)13:20
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lcukJaffa, havign a simplified standard C style library API fronting qt code would be ideal for many qt things13:21
lcukit would allow interop between many more languages (since its easy to add bindings between X and Y using normal libraries)13:21
Jaffalcuk: Only dark grey was the choice13:22
lcukJaffa, matches the suits of course :)13:22
lcuka nice Nokia blue one would be cool13:22
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* infobot mooooooooo! I am cow, hear me moo, I weigh twice as much as you. I am cow, eating grass, methane gas comes out my ass13:32
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merlin1991hey Doc13:32
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flexxxvHy, where can I find Maemo Diablo Ubuntu Intrepid _Desktop_ virtual SDK image13:36
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flexxxvi can only find the server version here:
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lcukJaffa, and any other longtime members, would you care to add a note onto this thread
lcuk"Maemo highlights over the years"13:38
lcukdescribed as epic :D13:38
JaffaAnyone know what the "enable Extras out-of-the-box" bug # is?13:38
lcukhi merlin1991 \o13:38
merlin1991hey lcuk "\o" ?13:39
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DocScrutinizerJaffa: exactly what it says?13:39
DocScrutinizeraaah #, sorry13:39
fralsheh, inline replies in richtext mails are kinda annoying when sender doesnt show whats a quote and whats added reply13:40
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DocScrutinizerfrals: discard13:40
fralsmorning all btw o/13:41
flexxxvDocScrutinizer: I only can find the server image13:41
flexxxvbut I know I download the desktop image some time ago :(13:42
chadiJaffa: can I PM you?13:42
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DocScrutinizerflexxxv: sorry, 3 out of 4 buzzwords weren't my domain exactly13:43
DocScrutinizerflexxxv: anyway you should rephrase your question, it's been not very clear13:43
DocScrutinizeror maybe clear but not very eyecatchy13:44
flexxxvok: I'm looking for the download advertised on this page: . If I follow the link I cant find the image of: Maemo Diablo/Fremantle Ubuntu Karmic Desktop virtual SDK image13:44
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merlin1991flexxxv, I had that problem too some time ago, that vm image tends to dissappear when a new one is about to come out13:46
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merlin1991all you can do is wait untill the next version is there13:46
flexxxvmerlin1991: really? this is strange :-/13:47
lcukmerlin1991, flexxxv - ok has there been a bug filed against this?13:47
flexxxvsomone has a mirror of it?13:47
lcukis it possible to actually take the older VMware image13:47
lcukand update it to fremantle13:47
lcukand then repush it?13:47
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lcukI know a few people have looked for this now13:47
lcukJaffa, i cant find that bug # either13:48
merlin1991I did some time ago, then there was a link there and I got a dl :D13:48
merlin1991now it's gone again13:48
merlin1991last time there was a notice somewhere on the forums though13:48
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flexxxvmerlin1991: could you mirror it?13:49
DocScrutinizeryup, seems all that's offered there13:50
merlin1991flexxxv, sure, but not atm, don't wanna kill my data plan on the n900 :P13:50
Jaffalcuk: I've got an updated PR1.2 image for VMware somewhere, ready for the London Open Source Jumpstart event. But a) I'm not really allowed to redistribute it since it contains nokia-apps, and b) it's quite big and may not be perfect.13:50
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JaffaIt's really a question for danielwilms13:50
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flexxxvJaffa: who made this image?13:51
DocScrutinizer  Maemo_Ubuntu_Intrepid_Desktop_SDK_Virtual_Image_Final.7z Torrent13:52
Jaffaflexxxv: I did. I took the PR1.1 one and updated it.13:52
merlin1991btw how do you update the sdk actually?13:54
Jaffamerlin1991: It's in the release notes of each SDK. Basically apt-get dist-upgrade (isH)13:54
flexxxvDocScrutinizer: nice but this is outdated :-/13:54
DocScrutinizerthen find a better one13:54
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flexxxvDocScrutinizer: I can't. thx anyway13:55
flexxxvJaffe: would you mind to share?13:55
lcukJaffa, great, if danielwilms could clarify and we can contact the owners of the "official" one then perhaps your image could be uploaded/sent_on_dvd for uploading13:56
lcukas we know, its not about perfect, but having a vm image that is usable is important13:57
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flexxxvjust found the orig 7z files on my pc :D14:01
flexxxvso I have the karmic desktop image14:01
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flexxxvso lucky that i havn't deleted it14:01
lcukholy crap!14:01
flexxxvI'm not allowed to mirror it right?14:01
lcukit took 6000 views for someone to work out how this works14:02
lcukflexxxv, idk14:02
lcukwhat an awesome comment from lma:14:03
lcukand especially14:03
lcuk    * the 1e6+1 things people made (and keep making) these devices do that their designers never even thought of or intended.14:03
Jaffaflexxxv: Ah, I may have "tidied" them up14:03
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DocScrutinizergnhnhnhn  ABANDONED PROJECT - Scratchbox 214:04
Jaffaflexxxv: Ah, no: (1.4GB) - in conjunction with
flexxxvDocScrutinizer:thx for info14:06
flexxxvJaffa: ithink I'll use the karmic image14:07
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hrwIcons in /usr/share/icons/hildon/scalable/hildon should have which size? 64x64 or just svg?14:15
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Jaffahrw: 64x6414:15
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DocScrutinizerlcuk: watching all those liqbase vids' topics just gave me an idea you may implement easily (if you haven't done yet): You know the game "memory" with all the cards placed on desk face down, and you have to find pairs with same picture? with invar you can pick two virtual cards and look what's their pictures.14:16
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lcukDocScrutinizer, the a4 page that the video shows, i use that to make notes on14:17
lcukand take photos of it, using invar, i can put my n900 on a blank piece of paper14:17
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lcukand then have the n900 move around andshow where the original stuff was14:17
DocScrutinizeryeah, for memory game you just need to hide the real pictures and show them on buttonclick14:18
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lcukyeah DocScrutinizer14:20
DocScrutinizerlcuk: you minf the cards are placed on desk,  face down, on a desk in random order, and there's always (iirc) 4 of each picture, and you may take away a pair if you opened 2 identical pictures14:21
merlin1991I wonder if got proofread, dbus and embedded have title and description swapped14:21
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DocScrutinizerRST38h: ping14:50
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hrwpyqt4 and strings == argh14:53
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dnearyMaemo meeting on now - please consider joinng #maemo-meeting to let people know what you want to happen on in coming months15:03
alteregoThanks dneary15:04
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meceStskeeps, how do these weekly builds work? if a build doesn't succeed, will the next one come on next wednesday, or any day of the week when it's ready?15:06
meceStskeeps, of Meego I mean.15:06
Stskeepsnext wednesday15:06
meceStskeeps, k, thanks.15:06
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hrw - only for brave ApMeFo users ;D15:09
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hrwDocScrutinizer: have a look at my version in free time15:15
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DocScrutinizerhrw: I considered adding a note about that annoying maemo desktop scroller bug eating your CPU & battery, but I noticed I don't even have a bug#15:16
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DocScrutinizers/maemo desktop/hildon desktop15:17
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hrwDocScrutinizer: but what it has to do with apmefo?15:21
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DocScrutinizerit doesn't show with 'normal' applauncher menu, as it needs a screen less the size of the display. This is only happening with apmefo/catorise etc15:22
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ghostcubehmm, guys litle question, using power kernel and cups is working for anybody?15:24
ghostcubemy cups isnt starting anymore -.-15:24
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timeless_roaminganyone know if seat zones 301, 302, 315 and 31615:26
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timeless_roamingare any good?15:26
Khertanhum .... my of tea see ...15:30
Khertani see ....15:30
Khertanthe seat 315 is near to the seat 31615:30
Khertanand 301 should be one just behing the 30015:31
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merlin1991wtf are you guys talking about? :P15:34
TermanaThat's strange. First time that happened. My N900 went flat when the only thing it was doing was sitting idle, on charge in PC Suite Mode.15:35
TermanaI think it's jealous of my HTC Desire :P15:35
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SpeedEvilTermana: were you doing tethering?15:43
TermanaSpeedEvil, yeah (with pc suite mode, not wifi tethering), but its never been a problem before. It would normally charge it before.15:45
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SpeedEvilTermana: If you're heavily using tethering, it can eat more power that way than it gets charging15:50
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lardmanafternoon chaps16:12
DocScrutinizerlo lardman16:13
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DocScrutinizer(lo SpeedEvil )16:13
lardmanhi docscrutinizer16:14
lcuk\o lardman16:14
lardmanhey lcuk, how's things?16:14
lcukandre__, good point!16:15
lcukDocScrutinizer, not really, cant talk in -meeting!16:17
DocScrutinizerlardman: lcuk is busy in a chan that just made me learn a lesson: massive c&P spamming can sometimes just make users "touch that dial"16:18
lcuklardman, good16:18
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DocScrutinizerlcuk: seems there's no chanlogs of #maemo-meeting :-/16:19
lardmanshall I mention how rubbish the maps app is, as I happened to need to use it today while leaving Cardiff16:19
lcukyes DocScrutinizer there is16:20
lcuk:( lardman16:20
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sobczykis there a howto for using the maemo virtualbox sdk?16:29
sobczykI tried an app but xephyr is constanty segfaulting16:30
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Khertanseems i miss the maemo meeting again16:32
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rsuplidoKhertan, it's still going on16:34
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Khertanyep but miss the start ... as usual :)16:35
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Khertani should stop playing with alarmd16:35
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DocScrutinizerKhertan: lcuk claims there's chanlogs. Maybe he tels you where to find16:44
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Khertaneveryone got their council vote token ?16:45
Khertani still didn't received mine16:45
DocScrutinizernone here16:45
DocScrutinizerno idea if I'm entitled for one16:45
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h4xordoodheyo :)16:54
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crashanddielcuk: SpeedEvil: luke-jr: DocScrutinizer51: For what it's worth, I think I managed to convince the neopwn guy to open source the project17:03
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lcukthats worth an awful lot crashanddie :) and 1000x better than the past, I don't think people will have a problem with donations etc either!17:05
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: congrats17:05
crashanddieI'm still releasing the driver in repackaged format, which doesn't require the chroot17:06
crashanddieand then working on getting a GPL-valid version (either by writing it myself or decompiling)17:06
Tott3[AEX]Anyone know what kind of VNC server to use for the VNCviewer app? RealVNC/TightVNC/UltraVNC? Does it matter?17:06
jacekowskiTott3[AEX]: it's same crap17:07
crashanddieFrom what the neopwn guy explained, it's the developer withholding the source code (which is what we suspected all along)17:07
Tott3[AEX]ah okay17:07
jacekowskiTott3[AEX]: use nx17:07
jacekowskiTott3[AEX]: it's much better17:07
Tott3[AEX]Theres like a million hits;> And lots of diffrent shit:P17:08
Tott3[AEX]Is it nomachine?17:09
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Tott3[AEX]Only has Linux or Solaris servers, i'm running Windows Q_Q17:11
RST38hehlo javispedro17:12
javispedrohelo (I do not speak ESMTP)17:12
jacekowskithen use rdesktop17:12
jacekowskidon't use vnc17:12
javispedromissed the meeting :( *checks logs*17:13
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joppuok, I think I finally managed the brick the N900 for real D:17:14
joppuit's in a reboot loop17:14
jacekowskithat's not brick17:14
jacekowskiyou can flash it17:14
joppuit doesn't go into the USB mode17:14
RST38hThe Final Reboot (horror)17:14
jacekowskijoppu: you're doing it wrong17:14
jacekowskijoppu: switch it off17:14
jacekowskijoppu: press u17:15
jacekowskiconnect usb cable17:15
Termanajacekowski, that's what she said17:15
jopputrust me, I have flashed this like 4 or so times before this happened17:15
jopputhe litte USB icon is nowhere to be found17:15
joppuand the phone just reboots itself17:16
CiNc018i think i have a bricked n800 lol right after i flashed it. to an older .bin17:16
javispedrologs of the recent meeting at , btw.17:16
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jacekowskijoppu: you're doing it wrong17:17
jacekowskijoppu: unless your usb port is broken17:18
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jacekowskido a cold flash17:18
DocScrutinizerjoppu: trust us, we've heard that 100 times, and it always was possible to reflash17:18
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CiNc018doc so if my n800 doesnt turn on, or if i connect the charger, the light doesnt turn on, i can reflash it?17:19
DocScrutinizerCiNc018: I have no access to a N800, so sorry but no definitive answer from me17:20
CiNc018oh ok17:20
DocScrutinizerCiNc018: check your battery17:21
dnearybergie, ping?17:21
bergiedneary: pong17:21
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CiNc018i do remember noticing that when it went to shut down, after reflashing an old .bin, the screen faded totally different..17:22
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dnearybergie, Looking at
povbotBug 4491: s/Itt/Talk/g on profile pages17:23
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ShadowJKDid it fade to white while simultaneously losing brightness and thus become black?17:24
CiNc018doc if i plug in the charger without the batt, would it turn on?17:24
dnearybergie, in midgard-data/style/maemo2009/profile/show-full-account.php, we have:17:24
DocScrutinizernot afaik17:24
CiNc018shad, it was like fading lines straight up n down, and it had the nokia on the screen.17:25
ShadowJKN8x0 charge subsystem scares me. It wouldn't surprise me if plugging in charger with no battery would do harm :)17:25
dnearybergie, karma_modules gets initialised like this:
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dnearySo if it's using net_nehmer_account_karma_dba, can I guess that the "itt_thanks" and "itt"posts" strings are coming from a database field?17:26
dnearyIf so, would it be possible to change the field to "talk_thanks" and "talk_posts"?17:27
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dnearyI don't have access to the midgard database17:27
dneary(at least, I don't think I do)17:27
ShadowJKI'd go with "check your battery" though. Those Polymer batteries wear out fast17:27
dnearyAnd I suspect that would also break stuff in the karma plug-ins which would need fixing (in midgard-data/snippets/karma_plugins)17:28
bergiedneary: we can also just rename it on the template level17:29
DocScrutinizerdneary: wouldn't it be better to change the code displaying the webpage, to include a proper label rather than a generic database field name?17:29
dnearybergie, You mean "if name='itt_thanks' then print 'Thank thanks'?17:29
bergiesomething like that, yes17:30
dnearySorry - "print 'Talk thanks'"17:30
dnearyseems kind of hackish doesn't it? Especially when the labels are auto-generated otherwise17:30
dnearyAnd it was kind of designed like that17:30
DocScrutinizerdneary: changing field names in a database looks dangerous to me17:30
dnearyDocScrutinizer: Not field names17:31
dnearyDocScrutinizer: Object attribute's value17:31
bergiedneary: the whole karma plugin is still "itt". We could of course rename it and trigger karma recount, but that takes a while17:31
dnearybergie, Seems like the best way to do it, though17:31
dnearyI don't mind variable names called $itt17:32
alteregoI wonder how much of my development of making this look and work nicely on Maemo will actually go across to MeeGo in the end.17:32
joppujacekowski: yeah, I think it *might* be the USB connector since it's got very flimsy17:32
dnearyBut if we could change the constraionts (line 72, 123) to talk_thanks & talk_posts, I think that would fix the bug, no?17:32
alteregoEspecially with all that M* stuff :/17:33
joppuI'm not sure if it's feeding power correctly17:33
dnearyAlthough how would that affect the contents of the itt_thanks & _posts fields?17:33
ShadowJKjoppu: I heard it doesn't go into flashing mode with insufficient battery power, and it doesn't charge when in reboot loop... oh and I guess intact usb connector is a must :)17:33
joppucurrently recharging the battery in another N900 unit17:33
dnearyDocScrutinizer: At least, from what I understand of Midgard there's no risk involved (bergie, perhaps you can confirm or refute?)17:33
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bergiedneary: gotta go, ping me about this tomorrow and I'll fix it17:34
alteregoShadowJK: not if you've got certain other Nokia models17:34
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bergiedneary: changing karma module names is not a problem, though then we need to either rename or remove karma stored with old module name17:34
TermanaShadowJK, In my opinion this is the worst thing about the N900 - it's software charging bullshit.17:34
alteregoYou can use the N810 to charge the N900's battery as you can with the 5800 and the E70 can do it I think,.17:34
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ShadowJKTermana, oh the other nokias have software charging too, it's just harder to shoot yourself in the foot since you can't modify the os easily :)17:36
DocScrutinizerTermana: huh?17:37
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DocScrutinizerN900 actually has NO sw charging17:37
TermanaAndroid smartphones will charge even if you fscked it. The iPhone does the same sort of emergency charging scenario as the N900 (charge until you have enough power to try and boot), but I don't know weather software is necessary after that.17:37
ShadowJKwell, N900 has hw charging, the hw boots nolo when battery power is sufficient, nolo keeps charger on until it thinks it can boot os, it boots os, os crashes, no more charging17:37
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TermanaShadowJK, it is still crap, no matter the exact specifics. It was oversight to not allow it to charge while off, imo.17:38
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ShadowJKwell, os crash itself doesn't stop charging, but if nolo tells hw to stop charging in preparation for handover to os.. and os crash causes reset :)17:38
DocScrutinizernevertheless it's hw charging with a watchdog17:39
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ShadowJKsee I did say it might not be a good idea to leave out initfs when I first heard n900 wouldn't have one :)17:39
DocScrutinizerit's simply the watchdog that kicks in when OS is crashing, nothing else17:40
ghostcubehmm, the people asking for pr1.3 will be kicked is missing in topic lulz17:40
lcukquestion from #maemo-devel17:40
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lcuk<tet> Hi ! I'am conceiving an Hildon interface for a maemo python app. Even it looks extremly ridiculous, i'am having trouble finding a list of the stock icons available on Maemo and how to include these in my app. Can anyone help me finding the right place where this is documented ? I just want to put icons on some hildon.buttons :/ . Anyway thanks for your help :)17:40
lcuknow I found this for him
ShadowJKI'm pretty damn sure a 5800 wont charge either if you go and fuck up the OS17:41
lcukbut thye arent working, any pygtk devs around Khertan hint hint :P17:41
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: actually most "phones" have sw charging17:41
DocScrutinizeras OS isn't supposed to crash17:41
DocScrutinizerand a separate "cpu" controlling the charger hw is expensive17:42
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DocScrutinizerso N900 charging is way better than what you'll usually find17:43
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DocScrutinizerooh, you already said most of that :-)17:44
ShadowJKbring back initfs!17:44
TermanaDocScrutinizer, Android handsets seem to do fine.17:44
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joppuafter some charging, it's now working! :D17:45
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ShadowJKsee, this is what happens when Nokia listens, thet listened to the people not wanting initfs and killed it :(17:46
Stskeepswe have initrd still17:46
ShadowJKStskeeps, yeah but act dead thing is outside initrd17:47
Stskeepsalways been in rootfs i think17:47
alteregoinitrd has been replaced with initramfs17:47
ShadowJKso when people fuck up shit on rootfs you kill charging too17:48
TermanaDocScrutinizer, if you have a phone that is able to charge right up without booting would that suggest it has this 'expensive extra cpu'?17:48
DocScrutinizerotoh when somebody mamaged to fsck up rootfs, why assume he was gentle to initrd?17:48
sobczykare there any simple instructions on how to run the sdk? I can't run the demo qt2ddrawing app17:48
ShadowJKTermana, it's a question putting the charging code somewhere where the user can't go and kill it17:48
ShadowJKquestion of*17:48
DocScrutinizerTermana: you are not in a position to tell if it booted at all17:49
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tetHi ! I'am conceiving an Hildon interface for a maemo python app. Even it looks extremly ridiculous, i'am having trouble finding a list of the stock icons available on Maemo and how to include these in my app. Can anyone help me finding the right place where this is documented ? I just want to put icons on some hildon.buttons :/ . Anyway thanks for your help :)17:49
TermanaDocScrutinizer, ShadowJK, no I'm not I guess. Is it possible that it would power on the radio cpu and use that?17:49
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DocScrutinizeractually all featurephones I know of have no real power down mode (off/shutdown). They simply enter another operation mode, and system 'boots' as soon as you insert battery17:50
ShadowJKTermana, it's possible it's done in the bootloader even17:50
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ShadowJKI suspect nokia wanted to push it as far ahead as possible, so that charging->poweron became lots faster than off>poweron..17:52
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TermanaShadowJK, they failed at that too. Trying to turn my N900 on while its on the charger makes it go spastic, rebooting several times and occasionally going back to idle charging or occasionally deciding then to boot17:53
ShadowJKmy s60 devices switch on frighteningly fast from "charging" too17:53
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: you're aware you can even configure to run SSU updates during act_dead ?17:53
jacekowskiShadowJK: well, on s60 i had alternative menu17:53
ShadowJKmakes sense to run it in the most minimal state :)17:54
jacekowskiShadowJK: and i could use phone normally when charging17:54
jacekowskiShadowJK: i mean, switched off phone17:54
jacekowskiShadowJK: when it normally would ask me for pin17:54
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jacekowskibut because of alternative launcher i could use it normally17:54
jacekowskibut it would shut down as soon as charger was removed17:54
ShadowJKit just goes instantly to pin query for me iirc :)17:54
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DocScrutinizerthe main 'issue' just is the missing parameter flash on bq24150. If you could flash a prom to set power-on defaults to - say - 4.1V instead of 3.7V everything would be much nicer17:57
ShadowJKwell, Gaia would still boot nolo once voltage is high enough, and nolo would boot user-messed os :)17:58
DocScrutinizerextend recovery charge timeout from 32 minutes to say 180 min, and fine you are17:58
jacekowskiwell, nolo can be stopped17:59
jacekowskiif you press u17:59
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: yes, but then you basically could leave bq24150 completely unattended, no more need for a friggin bme basically17:59
jacekowskiand nolo will keep charging17:59
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: I should actually go and confirm this, right now18:00
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ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, do it with a 36xx mV battery too :)18:00
ShadowJKor lower18:00
DocScrutinizergot no such battery :-P18:00
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: you got any numbers for NOLO setting bq charging to?18:01
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ShadowJKwell it takes less than 60 minutes at max load to get such a battery ;)18:01
ShadowJKjoppu: did you hold in u the first time you tried flash?18:01
DocScrutinizertoo long for me right now18:01
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DocScrutinizerTermana: you seem to have a thoroughly messed up system18:03
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DocScrutinizerTermana: I admit screen and LED action on boot is rather puzzling, but if you don't mess with power button assuming you have to redo power-on, it will start up correctly for me every time18:04
DocScrutinizerjust don't press power button a second time when screen goes all black for several seconds18:06
DocScrutinizerit's not dead, it's booting X-P18:06
ShadowJKguess what happens when you hold it in :D18:06
DocScrutinizerduh what? holding power button for 60s or what?18:07
TermanaAre you suppose to just tap it while its idle charging? :P Cause I DO hold it, as if I was about to start from cold boot18:07
jacekowskiyou have to hold it for couple seconds18:07
jacekowskithat's all18:07
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DocScrutinizerto be precise you have to hold it until ramping up white power-up light finished18:08
TermanaHmm, well I guess I might be holding it a little too long and that might explain the erratic behaviour.18:08
ShadowJKi thought holding it forced shutdown18:08
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DocScrutinizerif it's acting_dead then it might18:09
DocScrutinizeracting_dead though is clearly indicated by flashing-yellow or constant-green LED18:09
ShadowJKi thought nolo also did flashing yellow18:10
pupnikwhat's the max drying temperature of a n90018:10
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DocScrutinizerand I think whenever I "power up" from act_dead state, there's no confusion about how long to hold the button, when looking at indicator LED18:10
pupnikmax environmntal temperature while turned off, SpeedEvil18:10
DocScrutinizerpupnik: 60°c18:10
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SpeedEvilBattery out it can probably take a bit more18:11
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DocScrutinizerthat's what I was pondering18:12
pupnikwhat components are the most heat sensitive18:12
TermanaRe: hiding charging code on devices - where is this to on the N900 for emergency charging? Since I haven't needed to do emergency charging yet, I'm not sure weather it starts up the white NOLO screen or not18:12
SpeedEvilpupnik: LCD probably, and case.18:12
DocScrutinizerLCD and backup cell18:12
SpeedEvilBacup cell really?18:12
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SpeedEvili thought they are grenerally good to 120 or so18:12
DocScrutinizerand case of course, though that shouldn't suffer even from 100°18:12
DocScrutinizerdunno about touchpanel, and speakers18:13
pupnik60 must be well within safety margin considering how full-sunlight affects the case18:13
DocScrutinizergenerally speaking, you don't want nor need >60°18:13
SpeedEvilSun in a hot car18:14
DocScrutinizer...can kill the LiPo :-P18:14
DocScrutinizercan even kill vinyl records18:14
DocScrutinizermeh, got things to do... o/18:15
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SpeedEvilI've had it working at 331K18:16
SpeedEvilin greenhouse logging GPS18:16
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ShadowJKTermana, hw charging is solid bright yellow. The software switches that off and activates the flashing/pulsing18:18
joppucurrently recharging the battery in another N900 unit so I know the drill18:18
joppuit was the battery that was the issu18:18
ShadowJKjoppu: so did you hold u first time?18:18
TermanaShadowJK, so what your saying is that the N900 IS able to charge without any software at all?18:18
pupnikcasette tapes warp in sun18:18
joppuit couldn't charge in the reboot loop and therefore refured to flash18:19
ShadowJKTermana, yes18:19
joppuShadowJK: Oh, yeah, I fucked up with the irssi's backlog, but I tried to say that I did hold U18:19
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ShadowJKTermana, though the hw charger's eeprom is programmed eith parameters that don't result in a 100% charge, and I think it stops after 32 minutes18:20
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TermanaShadowJK, what about smartphones that allow full charging without booting into userspace - do they most likely use hidden code to charge?18:21
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: would be nice if it *were* an EEPROM18:21
rmrfchikdpkg-shlibdeps: failure: no dependency information found for /opt/NokiaQtSDK/Maemo/4.6.2/sysroots/fremantle-arm-sysroot-10.2010.19-1-slim/lib/
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, oops yeah for sure18:22
DocScrutinizerTermana: please read backscroll, all has been elaborated some 30min back18:22
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ShadowJKTermana, I'd suspect the bootloader does it, or they actually boot into userpace with no UI or network services activated..18:23
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: usually #218:23
SpeedEvilOr have slightly smarter 'hardware'.18:23
SpeedEvilFor example, an embedded controller.18:23
MohammadAG51Termana, what phones?18:23
MohammadAG51all Symbian phones boot up without loading the UI when charging18:24
MohammadAG51there's even a hack that allows you to start extra apps while charging18:24
MohammadAG51domainsrv.exe afaik18:24
DocScrutinizerwhich also was stated clearly by me some 30min ago18:24
TermanaMohammadAG51, I'm specifically looking at the Nexus One/HTC Desire which has an TPS65023 integrated Power Management IC18:24
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MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, sorry, wasn't there18:25
DocScrutinizerTermana: so RTFM of TPS6502318:25
MohammadAG51Termana, never seen those18:25
MohammadAG51~debian Termana18:25
* infobot tells Termana to RTFM!!!! GAH!!! HELL FIRE AND BRIMSTONE!!!! BURN!!! DIE!!! MWAHAHAHAHA!!!!18:25
ShadowJKTermana, DocScrutinizer's battery hotswap hack actually relies on shutting down bme (the charge software) and waiting for the hw charger to notice software control went away, at which point it reverts back to independent operation and will supply power to system when you swap batteries :-)18:25
SpeedEvilTermana: Read the datasheet.18:25
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: exactly18:26
ShadowJKbme otherwise shuts down n900 if it notices you removed battery ;p18:26
DocScrutinizerwhich btw is the reason hotswap works only for relatively depleted batteries18:26
DocScrutinizeras otherwise bq24150 won't even start charging18:27
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MohammadAG51a professional bme replacement should be made18:27
DocScrutinizerwhat for???18:28
SpeedEvilShadowJK implied ages back that it was possible to write the capacity register in some manner.18:28
MohammadAG51DocScrutinizer, jrbme is a script, not automatic, plus it'd help on alternative OSs18:28
SpeedEvilPerhaps the voltage threshold registers can also be written - though tehy would normally be initialised - wrongly - from flash.18:28
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: yeah I remember, though this isn't related here18:28
MohammadAG51eventually we'll need those18:28
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, the capacity register of bq27200 can be modified through some hoops18:29
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: rewriting threshold registers is exactly what is done and starts watchdog host controlled mode (I2C mode)18:29
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG51: what's wrong with a script? and what stops you from starting a script in system-init?18:30
MohammadAG51idk, I prefer C daemons over sh ones18:30
DocScrutinizerthat's your cup of thea18:31
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DocScrutinizertea even18:31
DocScrutinizerI prefer strawberry over vanilla icecream18:31
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ShadowJKbut anyway, for hotswap you probably want to do: disable charger, set 1250 mA charge current, set no limit input current, set disable termination, set regulation voltage to higher than current battery voltage, enable charging, tell user to swap battery18:31
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: good plan18:32
DocScrutinizera bit complex and some dangerous dark corners, but smart18:32
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ShadowJKyeah it's a bit unproper if user wants to swap away full batt :)18:33
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DocScrutinizerother issues: USB host VBUS overload, abort of script in between (user changed his mind, doesn't swap)18:37
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* DocScrutinizer waves18:37
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alteregoUrgh, just got called by carphonewarehouse inquiring about an upgrade.18:55
toggles_walterego: n901?18:55
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th3hatecould someone tell me why do i get the following error while trying to flash n900?18:56
th3hateunable to execute /usr/bin/flasher-3.5 : No such file or directory18:56
Stskeepsyou need to install the flasher18:56
th3hateit's installed18:56
wmaronenot there, obviously :P18:56
th3hateinstalled it with sudo dpkg -i --force-architecture maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2_i386.deb18:57
alteregoth3hate: are you running 64bit OS?18:57
alteregoDo you have 32bit support installed?18:57
alteregoBecause the flasher binary is 32bit18:57
th3haterunning live cde18:57
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alteregoWell, maybe you should try with a 32bit live cd18:57
th3hateit worked last time i tried.. used ubuntu x64 live cd18:59
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merlin1991th3hate, apt-get install ia32-libs and retry19:00
alteregoubuntu probably has ia32-libs installed.19:00
th3hatemerlin1991, thanks19:00
th3hatealterego, using the same live cd i used last time19:00
merlin1991alterego, it didn't some time ago when I tried to install enemy territory :)19:00
th3hatemerlin1991, E: Package ia32-libs has no installation candidate19:01
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alteregoth3hate: I don't think you can do that with a live cd ..19:02
alteregoInstall packages that is.19:02
th3hateHowever the following packages replace it:19:02
th3hate  lib32z1 lib32ncurses5 lib32bz2-1.0 lib32asound219:02
th3hateshould i try?19:02
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alteregoThe package does exist.19:03
th3hateso it's a waste of time to try flashing on a 64bit laptop with a live cd?19:05
merlin1991just use a 32bit live cd? :D19:05
th3hateehh.. too lazy to download 800Mb again :(19:06
th3hatelooks like there's no workaround though19:06
merlin1991why do you need the live cd in the first case?19:07
alteregoThat reminds me, I really need to download this Windows 7 DVD at some point.19:07
th3hatedon't want to partition harddisk for native install19:07
merlin1991can't you use the installed os?19:08
th3hatewin7 64 bit19:08
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th3hatei'll try to run mint distop via VMware19:09
th3hatemay work19:09
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alteregoth3hate: if you can VM, you can even install the 64 bit ubuntu, you just have to install ia32-libs once it's installed.19:19
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th3hatealterego, flash via vmware worked well with a 64bit image19:26
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th3hatealterego, but live cd's are not reliable :P19:28
alteregoIt would have been fine if it was a 32 bit one :P19:28
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Khertana reason to hate emacs :
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th3hateKhertan, you're the developer of khweeteur (spelling?) :P?19:39
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alteregoInteresting, only 20 episodes in the late 24 ..19:45
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luke-jrcrashanddie: ah well, I was going to go ask if donating $10-$20 would help, but I'm still banned (#Pentoo )20:08
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lcukholy shit!20:11
lcukfrals, they build this for you:20:11
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lardmanQuick question, pyside of pyqt?20:28
Khertanth3hate, yep :)20:28
Khertanlardman, depends on what you want to do20:29
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th3hateKhertan, great work so far. i suggest adding a fullscreen option because i hate the look of the taskbar20:29
lardmanPython with a Qt ui20:29
Khertanfor user ready app PyQt20:30
Khertanfor user full of bugs app PySide :)20:30
* Khertan is away20:30
Khertangood evening20:30
lardmanthanks Khertan :)20:30
Khertanth3hate, why not, easy to do :)20:30
th3hateKhertan, would be nice20:31
th3hateKhertan, i also like the gray theme20:31
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fredrinhow's life DocScrutinizer and you n900 and FR?20:52
DocScrutinizerfredrin: thanks, fine20:52
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pogI installed syncevolutin on my N900. As I don't understand the calendar-Sync, I have to ask - can I now sync my ubuntu-Evolution Calendar with my N900?20:53
pogor do I have to install syncevolution on the ubuntu too?20:54
pogsyncevolution *is* SyncML-Server, but I don't know, wether evolutin can commuicate with such one.20:56
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ioanhi. is there a way to make fcamera to take a picture after x seconds?21:04
mc_teocan i use the autobuilder for my own stuff?21:06
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mc_teoi am never at my desktop when i want to compile things myself21:06
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SpeedEvilioan: I aslowant itto take pics over dbus21:07
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zbiiIs it possible for the UMTS/phone part of N900 to interfere with wifi?21:19
SpeedEvilIt's on a very different wavelength.21:20
SpeedEvilProbably not dignificantly.21:20
zbiiStrange. I have serious problems with my wifi router and only my. With all the others around the world it usually works.21:23
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zbiiAre there any special settings needed for N900? Band maybe?21:24
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mgedminzbii, depending on the regional settings of the n900 it may not support wifi channels over 1121:33
zbiiThat would be channel number on the wifi?21:35
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MNZevening #maemo!21:37
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lcukhey MNZ \o how goes it21:41
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MNZlong long day. But it's finally time for hackery B-)21:43
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RST38h"Up to 30 minutes of free WiFi a month coming to NYC parks"21:50
RST38hOMG how generous!!!21:51
lcukRST38h, is that per park or combined?21:53
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zbii30 min? That is a joke!21:54
lcukyeah zbii it should be at least an hour21:55
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zbiiWhere I live, well in the citiy close by there is free wifi no restrictions.21:56
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Stskeepsthp: qt got your tongue? ;)22:00
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* RST38h is installing 728MB of Maemo apps22:01
MNZRST38h, rootfs flash?22:01
thpStskeeps: windowfocus fail. sorry about that :)22:01
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churl1How does one remove a repository?22:04
churl1application manager > tools > application catalog?   cause there's, um, nothing there. :/22:05
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lcukchurl1, hmm22:09
churl1oh yeah :)22:09
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meceachipa, ping22:39
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DocScrutinizerMNZ: is there some binary that allows me to shoot raw hex values to biquad via sysfs, so I could load certain predefined EQ settings from e.g. a script? I'm eager to test that22:45
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RST38hHmm, GAN is no longer trying for the council seat22:46
MNZDocScrutinizer, yup there is22:46
DocScrutinizerRST38h: when are you returning to Mosow?22:46
RST38hDoc: Already have. Currently transferring data and apps to my new n90022:46
DocScrutinizerI'd appreciate paul to get his device soonish, so he can start hacking hostmode22:47
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RST38hDoc: Yes, I will pass him the device in a couple of days22:47
DocScrutinizerfine :-)22:48
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DocScrutinizerRST38h: as you might have noticed DHL failed epically to ship to .ru22:49
DocScrutinizerpackage got stopped and sent back halfway22:49
Jaffameego-dev's "spec" thread and the discussion about external dependencies is, quite literally, boggling.22:51
RST38hDoc: This does not surprise me.22:51
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DocScrutinizerRST38h: go figure: it took them 4 days to clear the shipment in HEL, then when Henrietta supplied them with some tax number they were no earlier to mention, they finally set status to cleared, only to return package to sender at Leipzig/Germany DHL hub22:54
meceWhat the hell is this now: "RuntimeError: the sip module implements API v8.0 but the PyQt4.QtCore module requires API 7.1"22:54
DocScrutinizerthat's actually master fail when DHL HEL doesn't know what DHL Leipzig needs to proceed a in-out pkg22:56
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DocScrutinizermece: :-/22:56
DocScrutinizerTHE sip module, the notorious magic one22:57
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meceDocScrutinizer, but what does it mean and wtf am I to do about it?22:59
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DocScrutinizermece: I have no clue23:00
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mece..and is the problem in PyQt, Qt or the sip module (whateverthefuck that is)23:00
DocScrutinizerif no obvious candidate or in doubt, go blame telepathy :-P23:00
meceok well the problem is not on my phone actually.23:01
DocScrutinizererr where then?23:01
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DocScrutinizermece: so you meant the problem isn't a unique issue of your device? Well that's quite obvious23:04
meceDocScrutinizer, well I don't have that problem at all actually.23:04
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meceActually this guy installed qlister, couldn't get it to work, so he made the exact same application and put it in extras :D23:05
alteregomece: yeah, I saw that.23:05
mecealterego, it's fine, but I still wonder about that error.23:06
alteregoThough he said it was to learn Qt23:06
alteregoWell, I've been using qlister for ages ..23:06
mecealterego, i made qlister because I wanted to test some qt stuff.23:06
alteregotbh, I thought about writing a similar app when I was first getting into Qt.23:07
alteregoBut then you released yours so I didn't bother gettings started ^.^23:07
mecealterego, well, it's a very good way to start. Simple.23:07
mecealterego, I've been meaning to talk to you. You've dabbled in qml I understand?23:08
alteregoWhat do you need? :)23:08
mecewell, I was wondering. qml is only for ui? or can you do stuff like reading files and network stuff with it? Or how do you go about that?23:09
alteregoQML has facilities for database access and networking23:09
alteregoBut not really accessing files :/23:09
mecedatabase is fine.23:09
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mecealterego, I'm planning a server-client turn based strategy game, with the game logic on server side. Was thinking I'd do the client in qml.23:10
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mecealterego, very simple game I might add.23:10
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alteregoThat's basically the root source for everything Qt based.23:11
alteregoQML based sorry ..23:11
* lcuk throws a bouncy ball around23:12
meceI did the first qml tutorial and was just amazed by the simplicity23:12
meceand smoothness.23:12
lcukmece, works well doesn't it23:12
mecelcuk, crazy good.23:13
lcukalterego has been playing before23:13
mecelcuk, yeah.23:13
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alteregoYeah, my only issue with QML is not having access to all the scriptable objects.23:13
mecealterego, what have you made?23:13
lcukalterego, did you ever get your compass working in it ?23:13
alteregoOR at least, that's not documented.23:13
alteregolcuk: I've ported my custom widgets used in my GPS app to work with it, but I have to wait for a Qt 4.7 madde sysroot23:14
alteregoOr build one myself.23:14
lcukmece, have you seen what alterego has been hacking on23:14
lcukthe ui looks sweet!23:14
pupnikshow us23:15
alteregoReally? It's just a wireframe.23:15
alteregoThough the QML image viewer I've been playing with is quite pretty.23:15
alteregoThat's my GPS stuff, the last two are closer to what I have now.23:15
lcukalterego, :) i happen to think you made a really good start on what looks like a cool app23:16
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lcukand you have a style that is rare :P23:16
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alterego:) Thank you23:16
mecewhat I want is a firstly a rendered hex of hexes which is fingerscrollable and smooth zoom in some manner. Haven't really decided how to do it yet. Did something in PyQt, but now feel that QML is cooler :)23:17
alteregoThis was something I was doing in QML:
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mecedoes the compass work?23:17
lcukmece, pan and zoom at same time in finger interface is a bit odd23:18
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lcukas you know - at least for single touch23:18
alteregomece: of course, it's my GPS app.23:18
lcuklook @ browser as expand workaround23:18
mecelcuk, well I could use a slider to zoom.23:18
lcukthats common solution23:18
mecelcuk, actually I want that.23:18
* lcuk has that on map23:18
alteregoI should probably update the screenshots.23:18
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alteregoAnd release a version ^.^23:18
lcukyes alterego you were going to align those labels :P23:18
mecedoes the bin run directly on n900?23:18
alteregolcuk: actually, those labels are aligned ..23:19
Corsacneeds libqtlocation23:19
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meceCorsac, thanks23:19
alteregomece: yes, though you need Qt mobility api's installed.23:19
lcukalterego, ^^23:19
mecealterego, how is it written? I mean is it only qml code?23:19
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alteregomece: those screenshots for the GPS app are pure Qt, but I've ported my custom widgets, i.e. the compass dial and slider to Qt Quick.23:20
alteregoSo I can write a QML app and pull in those widgets.23:20
mecealterego, I see.23:21
alteregotbh, the app probably wont be ported to Qt Quick, as it's fine in pure Qt23:21
alteregoand works well.23:21
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mecealterego, any particular reason why it isn't in extras? Or is it?23:22
alteregoAnyhow, you need the Qt maemo5 stuff and Qt mobility geolocation apis installed to run that binary.23:22
alteregomece: yeah, it's not ready yet :)23:22
Corsacis there a metapackage for qt mobility?23:23
mecealterego, still, if it does something, just put it in devel.23:23
alteregoCorsac: I'm not sure, apt-get install libqtm-* ? ^.^23:23
Corsac(why oh why HAM takes so much time after downloading fresh sources.list)23:23
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lcukCorsac, I think I heard something about that, but IDK exactly where it is23:23
alteregomece: I'm working on it, it'll be thrown into extras very soon.23:23
lcukalterego, please throw it through -testing first :P23:24
alteregoIn its' current state, with certain features still not implemented but greyed out. I just want to complete the new configuration management stuff I've been working on today.23:24
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alteregolcuk: obviousy, I meant devel :P23:24
lcukalterego, good idea :)23:24
lcukthat way you dont expose the incomplete stuff until its ready23:24
lcukand people wont moan :P23:25
lcukthat xyz doesnt work23:25
alteregoYeah :)23:25
* lcuk looks forward to it23:25
* mece too23:25
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* Corsac moos23:26
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alteregoActually, I've got a good set of new screenshots I did a week or so ago.23:26
hardakerUmm...  so when you're packaging something how do you avoid this issue:23:26
hardaker  libval-threads: Depends: libc but it is not installable23:26
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hardakercause, um, it certainly does exist and is installed!23:27
Corsacno it's not, it's libc623:27
hardakerwonder why scratchbox found libc as the dependency23:28
hardakerbecause scratchbox has a /usr/lib/ file (from libc6), but the n900 doesn't.23:30
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Corsaclibc in /usr?23:30
hardakerthere is one on my scratchbox, yes.  not on the device.23:31
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hardakerdpkg -S /usr/lib/libc.so23:31
hardakerlibc6-dev: /usr/lib/libc.so23:31
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jogauses only gps?23:37
alteregoWhat else would you have me use? :P23:37
jogaheh, just checking ;)23:37
joga(didn't read buffer) ;)23:37
dotblankhow accurate would the accelerometer be to derive position?23:37
alteregoI was contemplating using accel telemetry for something, but not sure what.23:37
jogadotblank, not accurate enough for that23:37
lcukdotblank, watch this:
dotblankjoga, seems to give a lot of data points23:38
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jogayeah it gives data but I wouldn't trust a compass heading from the accelerometer23:38
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alteregoaccel is only useful for orientation discovery and movement gestures.23:39
alteregolcuk: that's cool :)23:39
dotblankwell you can take the device and move it in the direction of the measured plane23:39
dotblankthen once calibrated you can find the distance23:39
dotblankits possible.. Dunno how accurate it would be23:39
lcukalterego, :) thought you had seen that23:39
alteregoNot really accurate enough and it will only measure gforce23:40
alteregoSo only acceleration.23:40
alteregolcuk: no, not that one :)23:40
dotblankalterego, yea but you can still find position from that data23:40
dotblankjust not that accurate also ignore initial velocity23:40
lcukalterego, its nice and simple23:40
alteregoErm, how do you measure distance if you don't even know you're moving?23:40
dotblankalterego, well you can say.. im at a stand still23:41
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dotblankthen move and it records time untill acceleration in the opposit direction23:41
dotblankintegrate and solve23:41
lcukalterego, hm?23:41
alteregoYeah, was just thinking that might be possible.23:42
alteregoI was thinking of using accel to help normalize the gps data.23:42
alteregoThat might help toward that.23:42
dotblankalterego, yea I think it would23:42
dotblankI should get working on a proof of concept23:43
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lcukalterego, dotblank :;hl=en_GB23:43
alteregolcuk: seen that one ;)23:43
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lcukyou might have done23:44
dotblanklcuk, saw that.. isn't that using the camera to find change in position?23:44
lcukbut its related to the positioning stuff23:44
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dotblankI can't belive none has bother to make a distance calc based on accelerometer23:44
dotblankno one*23:45
Shapeshifterdotblank: GPS?23:45
dotblankShapeshifter, well thats gps..23:45
dotblankShapeshifter, also won't work indoors23:45
Corsacwell, GPS would be useful for large distances23:45
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Shapeshifterdotblank: measuring tape?23:45
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Corsacsince precision is like 20 or 25m?23:45
dotblankI have some access to some kinematics testing equipment23:45
dotblankso I can see if I can get it refined and calibrated to do so23:46
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dotblankis there a way to increase the rate the n900 polls the accelerometer?23:47
dotblankalso for human movement what power should I limit it to23:48
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ShadowJKthere's a rate filr in the sys dir for it23:48
MNZdotblank, the accelerometer is largely useless for measuring distances AFAIK. There was this nice explanation of why, and SpeedEvil can link you.23:48
ShadowJKyou can echo 400 to it to increase it from 100h to 400hz23:48
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dotblankin theory at 400hz you could get it to work very very nicely23:49
dotblankprividing the data itself is accurate23:49
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lcukrealworld interface navigation aids for the blind23:50
meceok.. so would using an image for each hex be really slow compared to drawing the hexes in some manner with qml?23:50
DocScrutinizerdotblank: 400Hz is max sample rate, and no it's not as precise as you'd need for decent distance estimations23:51
ShadowJKit'll be pretty damn inaccurate because you wont know the exact orientation of the n90023:51
lcukorientation wont drift really23:51
lcuklocation estimate will23:51
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ShapeshifterI think measuring tape is what would do the trick indoors.23:52
dotblankwell you could define a plane and say measure component forces in this direction23:52
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: yep23:52
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lcukdid you see the indoor navigation at nokia world?23:52
dotblankyou could also do it in 2d or even 3d space23:52
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ShadowJKyou get acceleration scalars from gthe accelerometer, you need to know your orientation to turn it into vectors23:52
* lcuk finds link23:52
ShadowJKlcuk, i suspect that was rigged wifi basestations? :)23:53
DocScrutinizerdotblank: this is a cheap chip and not a $$$$$ inertial system23:53
dotblankShadowJK, you can do that because gravity would be streight down.. for example z your x and y will very23:53
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jacekowskiwell, you always have 1G downwards23:53
DocScrutinizerdotblank: errors accumulate23:53
jacekowskithat you can use23:53
lcukShadowJK, have a look23:53
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dotblankDocScrutinizer, aww.. I still think it would be cool to try even if it doesn't work23:53
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: well, there are workarounds for that23:53
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: for example assuming that somebody can't go into wall and stuff23:54
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DocScrutinizerafter a single quick move over 50cm you'll not get the device to an exact non moving calibration23:54
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lcuktheres other videos showing it23:54
lcukdotblank, of course it would be feasible to try23:54
lcukyou could even recalibrate occasionally23:54
lcukif you had something nearby to identify23:54
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ShadowJKdotblank, so put my n900 in a car back seat and drive aroud in circles, can you distinguish acceleration due to  gravity from acceleration due to car movement :P23:55
dotblankI worried my accelerometer is already off23:55
* DocScrutinizer is fetching a link once again23:55
Shapeshifterdotblank: why not try it them23:55
dotblankShadowJK, no you can't but you have to start the app while not moving23:55
dotblankShapeshifter, I think I will23:55
ShadowJKeven then?23:55
dotblankbe a cool little project23:55
dotblankdoomed to fail23:55
* dotblank shrugs23:55
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dotblankI want to get it to work in 3d space then ride a roler coaster23:57
dotblankand providing its not a complete failure you could map out or trace your path on the ride23:57
DocScrutinizer  for your convenience23:57
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lcukdotblank, rollercoaster could happily be done with agps?23:57
timeless_pidginHelp? How do i make pidgin fit on my n900's screen?23:58
DocScrutinizerAfter 1s, if you happen to hit an average noise peak in each accelerometer at the opposite point - something that'll happen once every 5-10 seconds or so, (absolute peaks are much worse) what happens to the pointing? Well - the velocity reads out as 6cm/s^2 wrong, which means that the position is now out by 3cm, or 10 degrees.23:58
dotblanklcuk, maybe use both according to the link it will only last for a couple of seconds23:58
dotblankthe gps is too inaccurate thoug..23:58
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timeless_pidginIt has room for 4 rows of foreign text if they have six or fewer words... As long as i don't get any tabs...23:59
dotblankDocScrutinizer, could it be possible to filter out that data?23:59
dotblankor limit the power?23:59
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