IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2010-08-23

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Stskeepsspecs started to appear now?00:00
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johnxStskeeps, on the RM-680 / N9? I think we always knew it would be OMAP3, and there have been suggestions of more RAM for a while00:03
johnxso you might as well just confirm the rumors with your internal knowledge :>00:03
Stskeepsi still recall fondly when we tried out the rx-51's in may00:03
ShadowJKomap3 and multitouch iirc00:04
GAN900Stskeeps, about?00:04
GAN900Stskeeps, and you count from the ANNOUNCEMENT date?00:04
johnxit's the standard tick-tock cycle. tick = entirely new architecture. tock = refinement00:05
luke-jrStskeeps: there's tear-down photos00:05
johnxStskeeps, yeah. I was totally right about it being essentially final hardware, BTW :P00:05
GAN900Jaffa / luke-jr, OMAP36x.00:05
GAN900So, could be 1GHz.00:05
luke-jrcould be?00:05
luke-jrsingle core?00:05
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lcukoi, we just had this same discussion about NOT DISCUSSING SPECULATIVE LEAKED HARDWARE00:06
luke-jrwe did?00:06
johnxah, sorry. Was probably asleep at the time00:06
GAN900luke-jr, define "core". But, OMAP3 is Cortex A8.00:06
GAN900lcuk, meh.00:06
* GAN900 has ops here.00:06
luke-jrGAN900: so pretty much obsolete00:06
GAN900And I say meh.00:06
ShadowJKWell the beagleboard had similar specs as n900, so I'm going to guess it'll be like beagleboard-xm :P00:06
lcukluke-jr, some did in #meego, granted it wasnt here but I recognise some faces that were :P00:07
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GAN900ShadowJK, except that's not 45nm, is it?00:07
luke-jr :P00:07
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ShadowJKwell it's 1GHz, dunno00:08
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luke-jrthat's what Nokia *should* make..00:08
GAN900Tapping the close button when MicroB locks scrolling on an arrow key press will make it crash.00:08
GAN900ShadowJK, yeah, I haven't been paying any attention to the Beagle progress.00:09
luke-jrGAN900: minor bug, since you want it to go away anyhow00:09
GAN900luke-jr, annoying having to see the banner, though.00:09
luke-jrtbh I've never seen what happens on Maemo when a user app crashes00:09
johnxluke-jr, is that the same design as the Zaurus Cxx00 and Cxx0?00:09
luke-jrjohnx: I wasn't aware there was a difference. Neither?00:09
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GAN900How's that tilted screen work on the N97?00:10
luke-jrjohnx: it's capable of C760 movement (minus rotating screen) combined with N900 movement00:10
GAN900Not thrilled about it for N9.00:10
Dantonichey do any of you edit your videos take with your N900?00:10
Dantonicwhat program do you use?00:10
ShadowJKthe N97 keyboard is a joke00:10
johnxluke-jr, aah. so wireless screen with its own battery? :>00:10
luke-jrjohnx: no00:10
luke-jrjohnx: wires in the moving hinge :P00:11
ShadowJKit makes the zx spectrum keyboard look good00:11
johnxand what's the advantage of that layout compared to the standard 'convertible tablet' aka zaurus cxx?00:11
luke-jrjohnx: you can use it like you use a N90000:11
GAN900Anybody extrapolate some dimensions from those photos?00:12
luke-jrjohnx: also, the N900-movement would have multiple locking points00:12
johnxwe could do it based off the size of the micro usb port, jah?00:12
luke-jrjohnx: so you could have the screen covering the number keys when you don't need them00:12
luke-jror only show the bottom row of keys (shortcut keys?)00:13
johnxthat sounds pretty involved for small gains ...00:13
GAN900Or that Chinese person's hand. *g*00:13
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luke-jrjohnx: well, it's also harder to break the screen connector? :P00:13
luke-jrjohnx: rotate a C760 screen the wrong way and oops00:13
luke-jrbut it might take up too much space I guess00:14
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johnxmine still works fine ...00:14
luke-jrmine too00:14
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luke-jractually, my 802.11b card stopped working for it a year or so ago00:14
johnxand I'd bet that your LCD cable would get destroyed pretty quickly sliding all over the place00:14
luke-jrI did the magic reengineering thing…00:14
johnxha! I killed 3 so far00:14
luke-jrI ripped the plastic apart, took the board out, glared at it, then scotch taped the plastic back on00:15
luke-jrworks as good as new now00:15
johnxI did that to one and it worked for a bit longer00:15
luke-jrit gets pretty hot w/o the complete plastic actually00:15
luke-jrI was kinda hoping there'd be room to cut the board shorter and just stick it entirely inside the C760, but oh well00:16
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* johnx sighs at Sharp for missing the boat, again and again and again00:16
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johnxand Nokia for not learning from their successes and failures with Linux00:17
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luke-jrjohnx: I think the problem is people don't want to spend $800 on any handheld device00:17
microliththey do, just not all at once00:18
Appiahmaybe it takes time to learn?00:18
luke-jrand are too stupid to realize they spend about that much on all the individual devices total00:18
microliththey like the illusion of a cheap handset00:18
microlithand they think in "how much can I afford per month" and not "how much will this cost me overall"00:18
luke-jrmicrolith: well, I suppose the downside of having all-in-one is you destroy it all at once…00:18
johnxthinking more about the way they approached the community, but also about the form factors00:18
microlithluke-jr: assuming you're irresponsible with your property, yes00:19
luke-jrmicrolith: that's the only reason for a cheap handset IMO00:19
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microlithwell there's cheap then there's "cheap"00:19
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DocScrutinizer51brolin_empey: (mini PCB) it's glued with doublesided sticky00:19
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luke-jrI'd probably be worried about it too, if I didn't still have my C760 :P00:19
luke-jrso I know from experience I take good enough care to last long beyond use00:20
johnxmy SL5500 is still working :)00:20
microlithspeaking of Zaurus00:20
johnxand I still miss the portrait layout + keyboard a lot00:20
luke-jrjohnx: I'm not interested in non-clamshells :P00:20
microlithapparently it's taken ~5 years but I saw none of them in Akihabara these last two weeks00:21
luke-jrat least not the Zaurus non-clamshell style00:21
johnxmicrolith, sadness00:21
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johnxI think I caught a picture at the height of the Zaurus Cxx used market00:21
* johnx digs up a pic00:21
microliththough I did see other hardware, a Sharp device obviously, running Ubuntu00:21
luke-jrmicrolith: PC-Z1?00:21
microlithbelieve so00:21
microlithi.MX51 based00:21
luke-jrmicrolith: too big for a pocket, right?00:22
microlithnot my pockets :)00:22
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microlithnot that00:22
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brolin_empeyDocScrutinizer51: Did you really brick your N900 while disassembling it, as SpeedEvil claims?00:22
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johnxmicrolith, were you at that store?00:23
microlithjohnsq: probably, didn't see a single Zaurus at any used hardware store00:23
DocScrutinizer51well, by strange incidence the FPC failed after reassembly, but we have similar reports for several users who didn't disassemble00:23
microlithhuge racks of iPhones and iPod Touches though :/00:23
* luke-jr wonders where microlith lives to see Zaurus on a regular basis00:23
brolin_empeyDocScrutinizer51: And should I remove the mini PCB before trying to resolder the micro USB socket?00:23
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microlithluke-jr: was back in 2003 when I was previously in Tokyo00:24
luke-jrI'm pretty sure I've always been the only person for like 100 miles with a C760/N810/N90000:24
johnxah. they weren't all that common even when I was there, except for this one incredibly cramped store. I don't remember tha name sadly00:24
microlithwhen the CXXX series was still getting new models00:24
microlithjohnx: when was that?00:24
DocScrutinizer51and be *extremely* carefull with the FPC00:24
microlithah, 200700:24
johnx2007 - 200800:24
luke-jrDocScrutinizer51: where's teh jrBME code?00:25
microlithyeah, no surprise00:25
johnxthey had a rack of sony clies next to it, too00:25
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microlithThough with the b-mobile card I had, my N900 was awesome the whole time00:25
johnxthere was some beautifully geeky hardware. I'd love to see those same form factors re-imagined with modern internals and a modern screen00:25
DocScrutinizer51luke-jr: a first draft is on tmo00:25
pigeonKegetys: ah... thanks00:25
luke-jrDocScrutinizer51: src repo?00:26
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johnxanyways. out of here for now00:26
luke-jrDocScrutinizer51: searching jrbme on tmo finds 2 mere references00:28
DocScrutinizer*sigh* you make me leave bed00:29
luke-jrthe shell script is jrbme? -.-00:30
ShadowJKit's supposed to charge00:30
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: after you understood what it's doing, you'll be able to 'fix' the 'bug' it has00:30
ShadowJKbut it has a few bugs :)00:31
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luke-jrI doubt I'll *ever* understand what that is doing00:31
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ShadowJKbq24150 datasheet helps :)00:32
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: then it's not for you, honestly - and no, that's not jrbme, that's a first draft as noted in the post00:32
luke-jrShadowJK: but… that's not the chip in N900…00:33
ShadowJKwhat is then?00:33
* DocScrutinizer heads off direction bed again00:34
ShadowJKbq24150 is the charger. bq27200 is the charge meter00:34
luke-jrso at charging finished, does it automatically go into "maintain charge" mode, or start discharging?00:35
ShadowJKIt stops charging. Then it later restarts charge if it has dropped00:35
luke-jrew :/00:36
ShadowJKYou know "maintain charge" kills batteries, right?00:36
luke-jrno? :P00:36
luke-jrhow about "run off AC" then?00:36
DocScrutinizer51not possible00:36
luke-jrwait, BME does "maintain charge"… is it killing the battery?00:37
luke-jror is it lying?00:37
ShadowJKNo it doesn't. It stops charging, and then it starts charging when charge level has dropped00:37
DocScrutinizer51bme does microcycling just like bq2415000:37
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luke-jrso BME reporting constant 100% is a lie?00:38
ShadowJKIt always says "Battery Full" after reaching battery full, until battery is at about 50-75 percent or something :)00:38
luke-jr27200 is reporting 100 too O.o00:38
DocScrutinizer51but yes, odds are its doing so micro microcycling, it may kill battery00:38
DocScrutinizer51and when screen on, it actually never stops charging00:39
* luke-jr ponders a smart battery charger daemon that predicts when I depart and plans ahead to hit 100% about that time…00:39
ShadowJKWell the top-off charge happens at a point where the battery is sp full any system load will drop the total current into battery below bq27200's end-of-charge detection threshold00:39
luke-jrwould it in fact be better for the battery to let it drop to 5% overnight?00:40
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luke-jrjust 50-75?00:41
DocScrutinizer51let it drop to 8500:41
DocScrutinizer51then it kicks in with recharge, automatically00:41
ShadowJKbme shuts down the system before 6 percent ;) (and then kids find ways to drain the remaining 6 percent and wonder why they can't charge)00:42
luke-jroh, so the shell script doesn't need to keep running? O.o00:42
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ShadowJKThat shell script, if its bugs were fixed, would exit on full battery00:42
DocScrutinizer51it does a one shot charge00:43
luke-jrwhat kicks in with recharge automatically, then?00:43
mathiasganyone tried to play wargus on N900?00:43
DocScrutinizer51my version here is keeping 'charging', but not finished yet00:43
DocScrutinizer51the bq and the bme both do00:44
ShadowJKIf the script was modified to not exit when status is "Done", the hardware would automatically kick in the re-recharge00:44
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luke-jrShadowJK: so just kick the watchdog forever?00:44
DocScrutinizer51bme at 99, bq at ~8500:44
DocScrutinizer51luke-jr: yep00:45
luke-jror I guess I should check what happens if I remove AC power…00:45
ShadowJKluke-jr, yep, or until status other than charging or charge done anyway00:45
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luke-jrShadowJK: like removal of external power src?00:46
luke-jror can i seriously just write an init script and cronjob? <.<00:46
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luke-jrdoes sound like a job for a kernel driver IMO00:47
ShadowJKIME if there's a fault condition reported by bq24150 you need to read it in order to clear it00:47
luke-jrbut I don't want to step on you guys' toes either00:47
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ShadowJKSo a proper thing would watch /sys/bus/i2c/devices/something/twl4030_usb/vbus to detect presence of power on usb00:48
ShadowJKand bring bq24150 out of hibernation to initiate charge00:48
DocScrutinizer51bq24150 can do that autonomously00:49
DocScrutinizer51what it can't do is determine the allowable current00:49
ShadowJKwhen charger cable is unplugged, twl4030_usb/vbus goes to 0, bq24150 throws fault codes and IME does nothing for awhile unless you give it instructions :)00:49
luke-jr… so back to init script + cronjob00:49
DocScrutinizer51ShadowJK: not according to datasheet00:50
luke-jrwill drawing too much current break the battery, or the charger? <.<00:51
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ShadowJKalso when unplugging charge cable I do echo 0 > /sys/devices/platform/musb_hdrc/link, usb sometimes start eating large amounts of power00:51
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luke-jrShadowJK: can I do that *with* USB plugged too? <.<00:52
ShadowJKluke-jr, well it could break a pc usb port, but chargers usually lower voltage which reduces amount going into n90000:52
luke-jrI don't actually use it for data, after all00:52
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DocScrutinizer51what you can do is to always charge @500, this won't usally break any usb port, doesn't need fancy enum shit nevertheless, and no musb core to detect charger00:55
DocScrutinizer51and delays charge-full with charger for only maybe 30..45min00:56
ShadowJKI hear in 2.6.34 they have a powersupply framework/api now so that stuff can properly notify eachother of this kind of stuff :)00:56
DocScrutinizer51given you idle and dim screen00:57
DocScrutinizer51hmm, need to hit 'post' on that comment to bugtracker. Wondering since 2 days if it's what I want to say00:59
kerioBCMM: huh? i meant that *all* n900s are still under warranty01:00
ShadowJKoh i guess it's only picky about watchdog timeout :D01:01
luke-jrDocScrutinizer51: go ahead, you're more informed on N900 BME than I am01:03
luke-jr(or open an actual bug for N900 BME…)01:03
kerioluke-jr: NOTABUG/WONTFIX01:04
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ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, ok you're right :)01:04
ShadowJKkeeping bq24150 tickled "just works"01:04
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ShadowJKbut I find usb is eating extra 75mA or so after unplugging charger :)01:05
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luke-jris this script's 4V200 = 500 ?01:05
ShadowJKleave 4V200 alone01:07
ShadowJK4.2 is the voltage to charge a Li-Ion battery to01:07
ShadowJKYou could theoretically lower it to 4.1 and make the battery last 2 years instead of 1 year01:08
ShadowJKor something01:08
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ShadowJK4 vs 2 years, whatever01:08
ShadowJKbut you'd also only use 80% of its capacity01:08
luke-jrShadowJK: hmm…01:09
DocScrutinizerthey changed #9314 properties, so I can't commit post now01:09
ShadowJKIncreasing it will wear it out exponentially faster for little gain, and it's also not safe01:09
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luke-jrso it *does* auto-detect the input current?01:09
ShadowJKYeah the charger seems to autodetect and go01:10
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: more like 90%01:10
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: nope it doesn't01:10
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DocScrutinizerluke-jr: RTFDS01:10
ShadowJKguess it depends what you mean by that :)01:11
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: maybe try with a new form? I didn't get an email of any such change01:11
ShadowJKbug 931401:12
povbotBug relicense N8x0 BME01:12
DocScrutinizersubject changed from relicense bme to relicence n9x0 bme, milestone changed, dunno what :-/01:12
ShadowJKYeah I couldn't even submit a comment because someone submitted a comment while I was writing mine01:12
luke-jrN900 isn't bq24150A, right? no A?01:12
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: I would think you don't have access to change subject/etc01:13
luke-jrI can because I reported it01:13
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DocScrutinizerIt's A01:29
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DocScrutinizerbq24150a ->
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DocScrutinizerthe 'A' is rather meaningless though, aiui01:31
DocScrutinizerit's a silicon revision afaik01:31
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: what is the purpose of (reg 0) 0xc9 masked to 0x77, when 0x77 makes 0x80 of 0xc9 ignored?01:32
luke-jrthat is, why not 0x4901:32
luke-jrerr, memory location 4 I mean01:33
ShadowJKthe masks are buggy01:33
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ShadowJKi2cset does read-mask-modify-write01:33
DocScrutinizernot exactly buggy, but suboptimal01:33
ShadowJKand there are registers that have different function when read from and when written to01:34
ShadowJKLike the reset register, always reads as 1, iirc :)01:34
luke-jrI still don't get it, other than "buggy"01:34
DocScrutinizerCE isn't correctly taken care of in the draft, as is reset01:34
luke-jrmasking 0x41 with 0x77 is the same as masking 0xc9 with 0x7701:34
* ShadowJK doesn't use any masks at all01:35
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: the values aren't generic, they are derived from what I read out from chip when bme is running01:35
DocScrutinizerthen I created the masks to mask out bits that have different meaning when read and write01:36
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: as mentioned, I have a better yet unfinished version here, if you want to wait for it then you don't need to bother with the draft at all01:37
ShadowJKhey guess what happened when I tried open that image on n900 ;p01:37
luke-jrbtw, I know the OTG pin isn't connected on the USB chip, but is the bq chip connected?01:38
DocScrutinizererr, it's connected to several parts of system, yes01:39
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DocScrutinizernow you managed to wake me :-S01:40
* DocScrutinizer heading out for coffee01:40
ShadowJKIf you have connected a charger, and do cat /sys/devices/platform/musb_hdrc/charger; you get a '1' as result, and the otg pin input on bq24150 goes high01:40
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luke-jr32 seconds to kick the charger :/01:42
luke-jrcron doesn't have that granularity01:43
luke-jrand waking the CPU up every 32 seconds will harm battery life significantly I think01:43
ShadowJKI think bme already wakes up every 32x01:43
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luke-jrso for all practical purposes, it needs to be turned off/on01:43
luke-jrShadowJK: well then, we can significantly improve battery life ;P01:43
DocScrutinizermake that 15s01:44
DocScrutinizertimer is +-50% or something01:44
luke-jrat least in theory…01:44
ShadowJKbut yeah, a nicer way would be inotify on /sys/bus/i2c/devices/1-0048/twl4030_usb/vbus01:44
luke-jrnot a concern of mine I guess since to be useful I want N900 constantly tracking GPS and IM :/01:44
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* luke-jr ponders if it would help to turn GPS off when accelerometers don't detect motion01:45
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: what's exactly what we should do, for jrbme01:45
ShadowJKenabled /CE and HZ_MODE on bq24150 when vbus goes away, when vbus appears: disable HZ_MODE, program charge params, unset /CE01:46
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luke-jrDocScrutinizer: are you planning a release soon?01:46
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: exactly :-)01:46
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luke-jr(btw, I presume you're already sure inotify works on sysfs?)01:47
ShadowJKnfi :)01:47
DocScrutinizerI did a bit of editing yesterday, as I feel we need something soonish. But I'm really lazy/sick/depressed atm, so no hard schedule01:47
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* ShadowJK has regular work plus fibre splicing :-(01:47
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SpeedEvilluke-jr: - see the script01:48
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SpeedEvilfor a moderately friendly power watcher.01:48
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: btw, I think your bug comment confirmed N8x0 BME would be enough for your purposes, since it presumably uses the same interfaces other than the battery hw?01:48
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: I'm not even thinking about sysfs nodes yet01:48
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DocScrutinizerexcept for polling them01:49
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SpeedEvilI have never seen the system go idle more than about 3.5 seconds on average.01:49
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DocScrutinizerluke-jr: alas that's not correct01:49
luke-jrwhat did I miss?01:49
DocScrutinizerStskeeps told me the interfaces changed01:49
DocScrutinizerfor (jr)bme purposes a polling freq of one per 30s seems sufficient and bearable01:51
DocScrutinizerthough it will delay charger plugin detection by max 30s01:51
DocScrutinizerbearable in my book01:51
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DocScrutinizerthe main problem is: can we detect charger at all, without bme?01:52
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DocScrutinizerthe fastcharger detect is done in musb-core, but I'm not sure it will work without bme01:52
SpeedEvilyou mean charger or vus01:53
DocScrutinizerD+- short01:53
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: how can I check from userspace?01:53
DocScrutinizererr read out sysnodes? or actively triggering a check?01:54
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luke-jr"fastcharger detect"01:54
luke-jralthough I don't know if I have a fastcharger…01:54
SpeedEvilDo you have the stock nokia one?01:54
SpeedEvilIt's fast01:54
luke-jrSpeedEvil: only the European one and the adapter01:54
SpeedEvilthat's fine01:54
luke-jrif the adapter is a fastcharger, then eys01:55
DocScrutinizerseems it *should* get triggered by a read to charger sysnode of musb-core01:55
SpeedEvilwhat adaptor01:55
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luke-jrSpeedEvil: adapter for N810 power thing01:55
SpeedEvilI have a european plug nokia charger, which has grown a UK mains plug.01:55
luke-jrSpeedEvil: I have no European outlets01:55
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SpeedEvilMe neither.01:55
asjme three01:56
SpeedEvilThat's why I put two large choc-connectors on the pins.01:56
SpeedEviland a cable to a plug on the other end01:56
SpeedEvilAnd wrapped it in wood and duct tape so it was secure and safe.01:56
DocScrutinizermad scottsh01:56
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SpeedEvilIt's OK - wood and duct tape qualifies as double layer insulation, so it's quite legal.01:57
* luke-jr is glad he can stick his fingers in an outlet here and live01:57
SpeedEvilI have mislaid my UK charger.01:57
keriocircuit breakers are mandatory here01:57
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SpeedEvilI was using it while cutting the hedge.01:57
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SpeedEvilkerio: It has a 1A fuse in the plug01:58
luke-jrkerio: here too I think01:58
luke-jrwell, unless you mean fuses don't count01:58
SpeedEvilIt may be on top of the garage on reflection.01:58
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kerionot a fuse, a... how do you call them...01:58
luke-jrmy house has fuses :p01:58
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keriothe thing everything passes through that interrupts the circuit if there's a short circuit01:58
SpeedEvilkerio: Circuit breaker is probably the corect rterm.01:58
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SpeedEvilkerio: You're in the US?01:59
SpeedEvilI seem tro recall.01:59
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DocScrutinizerDelta-I differential current circuit breaker. Only useful if <30mA01:59
kerioSpeedEvil: italy01:59
DocScrutinizeryeah Italy and Spain *need* those, due to abysmal electric craftsmanship02:00
kerioit's a measure of safety ffs02:00
kerioalso probably more than half of our buildings have no ground02:01
kerioso yeah02:01
DocScrutinizerkerio: don't worry, they are mandatory here in D as well now02:01
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DocScrutinizerI fsckng wonder how I could let my electrician get away with that shit - have a 20mA plug DI here for my workbench, but odds are the computers will go down as well when I DIY some funny things, as the main DI triggers faster than the plug02:03
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keriosome funny things?02:03
keriosomehow i think it's for the best that the power goes down this quickly02:04
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ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, rcd?02:04
DocScrutinizerI need my electric shock every once in a while :-P But I don't like the shock when *all* the electrics go down on that02:05
kerioget a UPS02:05
DocScrutinizeralready planned02:05
* ShadowJK pretends to be an electrician at work occasionally :D02:05
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: rcd??02:05
ShadowJKreturn current difference thingy?02:06
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ShadowJKlike that thing that checks how much goes uut on phase and how much comes back on n and trips if the diff is too big?02:06
DocScrutinizeraah yep, seems there's no standard name in English I'm aware of - in germany thay are called FI-switch02:06
kerioheh, the italian term translates literally to "lifesaver"02:07
* DocScrutinizer heads of to fuse box, to check the exact current of the main FI02:07
ShadowJKi think they're called "ground current breaker" here..02:08
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DocScrutinizermain. So odds are my plug adapter type 0.02A I use for workbench is not 'protecting' the main switch from trigering as well02:09
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DocScrutinizer   RCD is european standard name :-D02:11
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ShadowJKin the absence of qualified people I was troubleshooting an electrical problem at work and opened this equipment box02:20
ShadowJKI found lots of 380V wiring connected by twisting wires around eachother and wrapping in electrical tape :)02:21
* ShadowJK put it back very carefully and decided not to touch that shit02:21
DocScrutinizersounds like US American method02:22
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kerioit's safe :|02:22
kerioelectrical tape insulates02:22
ShadowJKthe length of the wiring was about 4 times longer than what was required, so it looked like someone had basically collected the wires in his hand and started jamming it into the box until it fit, and then screwed the lid on02:23
ShadowJKYes, well, tape starts looking brittle and fragile after 20 years, and the adhesive doesn't hold so good either :)02:23
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ShadowJKoh well, it's only like 40kW going through that spaghettinest :D02:24
asjthat's what breakers are for ;)02:25
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asj(and you should be scared, I'm an electrical engineer)02:25
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Jef91So for some reason my text messgaes have been randomly not showing up/randomly being removed last couple of days on my n90002:25
DocScrutinizerin New Orleans on a Media Fair, I faced those noobs over there considered our booth requirement "220V" as 3 phase 130V :-P02:25
Jef91any suggestions?02:25
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DocScrutinizerdelete all messages02:27
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Jef91how docscrutinizer?02:27
heoaI forgot the root password to n810, is there some easy way to get it to default? How can I boot it to single mode?02:28
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Jef91nvm found it02:28
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ShadowJKheoa, install rootsh, type sudo gainroot, passwd root ?02:29
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DocScrutinizer(new orleans) then when I asked them for 3 1:1 transformers, to build a triangle to star converter, they came along with those nasty things like a hollow cone with a thread inside - you just screw it onto the copper ends of up to 4 wires to connect them. Somewhat similar to the twist-and-isolate method02:30
heoaShadowJK: Thank you.02:31
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SpeedEvilWirenuts seem like a horribly bad idea.02:33
heoaIs there any phone by Nokia that is btw a communicator and N900? Still satisfied with 9300 but would like to get it upgraded with n810-style console02:33
SpeedEvilSure - in principle it is a nice gas-tight joint.02:33
SpeedEvilIf done just right.02:33
heoaor preferrably n900 style debian things02:33
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: wirenut - exactly :-D02:34
ShadowJKheoa, n900 is the only linux phone from nokia02:35
luke-jrand it's not even Linux or a phone!02:36
ShadowJKI suspect the Communicator is dead and buried by nokia02:36
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DocScrutinizerluke-jr: how is it not linux?02:38
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ShadowJKit's not mainline linux ;p02:39
ShadowJKand doesn't work with mainline linux02:39
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DocScrutinizerI think that description more applies to buntkuh than to maemo though02:39
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LiraNunadid you guys check out
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DocScrutinizernot exactly the trac. Why?03:31
DocScrutinizerdid Harald something exciting new?03:32
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luke-jrugh, SMS spam now?03:47
SpeedEvilMy SMS spam is limited to tmo.03:48
SpeedEviltmobile that is.03:48
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DocScrutinizer51SpeedEvil: regarding the given fact there's not just the one emergency number, it's probably really complex how dialer-ui and bme and cellmo/rapuyama work together to enable 911 calls during overtemp or lowbat conditions03:59
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Jef91is there an app that will auto remove text messages that are X days old?04:04
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technomikehey guys04:22
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b-man|laptophay johnx :)04:44
johnxhey b-man|laptop :D04:44
johnxhacking on anything fun lately?04:44
b-man|laptopexperimenting with debian on my N900 :)04:45
johnxfun times04:45
GAN900Anybody got any fun speculation for me to stick on the mwkn summary of the N9 photos?04:45
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b-man|laptop ;)04:45
johnxGAN900, I heard it has a fuel cell battery and it can also act as a beer keg, which can be dispensed by d-bus signal04:46
b-man|laptopthe metapackage system is set up alot like deblet/ubuntu-n8x0, but i'm aiming to implement stuff from MeeGo :)04:47
johnxI think this time I might actually develop for meego04:47
johnxI might actually be getting burned out from the distro wars04:47
DocScrutinizer51GAN900: has no stylus so probably a c-ts04:47
GAN900johnx, sweet!04:48
DocScrutinizer51backlid /battery cover is fixed by screws04:48
johnxRemember dbus-scripts? I think I'm actually going to try and put together a general policy layer on top of it04:48
GAN900DocScrutinizer51, this we know from the Summit.04:48
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GAN900DocScrutinizer51, lol.04:48
GAN900DocScrutinizer51, I imagine that's a proto issue. ;)04:49
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DocScrutinizer51usb receptacle seems same crappy smt type04:49
GAN900Hopefully that's also a proto thing. . . .04:49
johnxactually, that reminds me: Has anyone else lost their kickstand magnet?04:50
b-man|laptopMohammadAG lost his a couple of times04:51
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DocScrutinizer51GAN900: maybe there's no stereo speakers and just a combined earpiece/speaker transduced04:51
johnxluckily for me the glue came off but the kickstand magnet stuck to the case magnet, so I still have it04:51
SpeedEvilAre there any commercially available micro-USB connectors with through-hole anchors?04:51
GAN900johnx, yes.04:52
GAN900Although it's still magnetically attached04:52
GAN900Just need some super glue.04:52
johnxYeah, was thinking of busting out the super glue04:52
johnxthat will be incredibly fiddly to fix though04:52
GAN900I may just let Nokia fix it, though04:52
* b-man|laptop hates handling super glue04:53
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johnxyeah, the trick is less handling -> more applying04:54
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b-man|laptopjohnx: btw, how is that pandora? - I've began to reconsider ordering one lol :)04:56
* johnx sighs04:56
SpeedEvilThe other issue is that the socket is fundamentally not strong.04:56
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johnxuhm, I have to send it back to the UK to get the wifi repaired04:56
b-man|laptopit'd be awesome to run meego on one of those :)04:56
johnxthat's the problem of being an early adopter04:56
b-man|laptopeww :(04:56
johnxYeah, I am looking forward to getting meego running on it04:56
SpeedEvilIt can't take significantly more force than the solder joints can support04:56
johnxthough, now I'm thinking that a Sharp PC-Z1 really isn't that much more expensive04:57
* johnx has learned his lesson about pre-ordering things.05:00
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johnxThough, really, I *am* glad I supported them. I just hope the experience goes to getting more 'community' hardware development projects launched a bit more smoothly05:00
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EdLindoes the N900 have Hebrew font support?05:25
DocScrutinizerI honestly doubt in success of 'community' hw development05:29
johnxhave you seen that?05:31
luke-jrjohnx: what community-developed hardware?05:31
johnxluke-jr, well, I should say, community influenced hardware, created by a small business05:32
johnxDocScrutinizer, I think it's a matter of having more of the parts being "off the shelf"05:32
DocScrutinizercommunity hw development is like community composing a symphony05:32
johnxI think things like the beagleboard are a big part of that05:32
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luke-jrDocScrutinizer: the same applies equally to sw05:33
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DocScrutinizernot at all, as you can evolve sw05:33
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luke-jrDocScrutinizer: did you comment on my concept btw?05:34
DocScrutinizerit's like community driven development of mars rover sw, without any prior tests05:34
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DocScrutinizer(sw) what are the chances this sw will be right on first shot, and doesn't need a single fix?05:36
luke-jrnevermind the sketch bit… nobody gets it, and it's probably not ideal05:36
EdLinjohnsu01: - it has pretty good support, apparently.05:36
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pigeonahha! just got my game gripper05:40
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DocScrutinizerluke-jr: sounds like a nice Marketing Product Requirements Spec. Some bits are arguable, some gimmick things I'd add, but nevertheless...05:45
SpeedEvilpigeon: for n900?05:45
pigeonSpeedEvil: yeah05:45
SpeedEvilIt's not vapour? Wow.05:45
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DocScrutinizerinfobot: what's up?05:46
infobotUp is the direction away from the central point of gravity.05:46
DocScrutinizerinfobot: what's sjansen?05:46
infobotsjansen is probably one hoopey frood who really knows where his towel is05:46
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SpeedEvilluke-jr: Is that supposed to show a reversible screen that folds down backwards on the keyboard for protection?05:48
luke-jrSpeedEvil: nope :P05:48
luke-jrbut closer than most people got I think05:48
luke-jrfolds down forwards, after you pull it up05:49
SpeedEvilI'm unconvinced you can't make that better than fucking unreliable.05:50
luke-jrbut as johnx pointed out, there is too little gain for the wasted space and wear05:50
luke-jrso if it ever becomes real, it would probably have a Zaurus clamshell shell05:50
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johnxhopefully it will also have a space bar :)05:51
SpeedEvilAlso- no fucking way is that under $800 unless you get >>>1K05:51
luke-jrjohnx: that one is ponderful05:51
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luke-jrjohnx: not sure how to fit it in w/ the e-paper design05:52
luke-jrSpeedEvil: get what?05:52
SpeedEvilSoftware controlled lens cover is also complete fail.05:52
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SpeedEvilMany more than 1K units05:52
luke-jrI would hope to. if there's a market. :|05:52
luke-jrwhy no sw controlled lens cover?05:53
johnxa *motorized* lens cover?05:53
luke-jrI've never had a problem?05:53
SpeedEvilMotorised lens covers of necessity have tiny motors.05:53
SpeedEvilTiny motors have fuck-all torque, and get jammed by stuff.05:53
johnxlike a tiny bit of sand05:54
lpotter_or strawberry jam05:54
asjSpeedEvil: you just a fly wheel and some slack in the gears... ;)05:54
SpeedEvilAll the devices I have had with sw lens covers have failed in some way05:54
asj(then it could duble as the vibrator)05:54
SpeedEvilAlso - 12MP/5* optical zoom isn't happening.05:55
johnxwhich is why one of my favorite digicam designs was the coolpix 2100:
luke-jrSpeedEvil: why not?05:55
SpeedEvilIt requires a physically large package.05:55
luke-jrIIRC those are like $100 on TigerDirect with a smaller size05:55
DocScrutinizerfsck lens cover. make that a sapphire glass which is easily changed when ever scratched05:55
SpeedEvilluke-jr: what are05:55
luke-jrSpeedEvil: 12MP+5*zoomdigital cameras05:56
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SpeedEvilThe camera module in the n900 is approximately 10mm*4mm*10mm05:56
SpeedEvilincluding lens.05:56
luke-jrit might take up half the device's thickness, but it should be doable05:56
SpeedEvilperhaps 6mm thick05:56
johnxluke-jr, anyways. prove me wrong by getting it built05:57
luke-jrjohnx: no resources :P05:57
SpeedEvilThe camera assembly in a 'proper' camera is more like 20*20*40 or more.05:57
luke-jrSpeedEvil: for size, think N810 with double the thickness05:57
DocScrutinizerouch, a real brick then05:58
SpeedEvilAnd pop-out lenses in devices are even more of a failure than sliding lens covers.05:58
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: same size as C76005:58
SpeedEvilI would be astonished if you could get the above out the door - the first thousand units - for a couple of million.05:58
luke-jrSpeedEvil: doesn't optical zoom practically *require* a pop-out lens?05:58
SpeedEvilWell - no05:59
DocScrutinizerno idea bout C760 - not even the brand. But I will head over next room and place 2 N810 piggyback05:59
SpeedEvilIt requires a variable length optical path05:59
SpeedEvilthis is not the same05:59
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luke-jrSpeedEvil: let's rephrase: doesn't 5* zoom require more thickness than 2*N810?06:00
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DocScrutinizerluke-jr: btw we been there, done that, some 12..18 months ago. With beyond-gta0206:00
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: bottom line: no resources :-P06:00
SpeedEvilThe optical module in this is about 10*20*40mm or so, folded.06:00
SpeedEvilThe optical path is entirely inside the camera06:01
EdLinhow well do the MMS options work on the N900? Someone loves to send me MMS messages I text with.06:01
luke-jrEdLin: they don't.06:01
EdLinluke-jr: that bad, huh?06:02
DocScrutinizeruse mirror and 'inline optics'06:02
microlithyou can install fMMS06:02
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: wouldn't that take up even more space?06:02
EdLinmicrolith: fMMS will work well?06:02
microlithdunno, don't use MMS messages at all06:02
DocScrutinizereven switch/rotate mirror for can shot direction head front/back/whatever06:02
luke-jrfMMS didn't work at all when I tried it06:02
luke-jr(a few days ago)06:03
SpeedEvilluke-jr: but there can be no external moving parts, which means that the moving parts can be less robust.06:03
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luke-jrSpeedEvil: I can't imagine that is workable, but whatever06:05
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SpeedEvilSee the above camera06:05
luke-jrin the space, I mean06:05
SpeedEvilyes - that's a problem.06:05
SpeedEviloptical zoom takes a huge volume in the case.06:05
johnxget me a coolpix 2500 style design :)06:05
DocScrutinizertbh when I just grabbed that stack of 2 N810, waved it in my hand, and imagined to have that brick in a belt pouch... NAH06:06
johnx2x N810s would be thicker than a Cxx00 Zaurus and that's a bit of a stretch as it is06:06
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: who wears belts? device goes in my pocket06:06
johnxyou would need to ship that device with custom cargo pants :P06:07
DocScrutinizeris that a washing machine in your pocket or are you just excited to meet me06:07
luke-jrjohnx: nah06:07
luke-jrC760 fit just fine for me06:07
luke-jrcould probably be thicker tbh06:07
johnxwell, the Cxx00 is thicker still, and 2x N810s would be even worse06:07
luke-jrjohnx: C760 and 2*N810 are equivalent06:08
DocScrutinizerwill rot in shelf06:08
* johnx gets an N810 out to test06:08
luke-jrN810 = 1.2cm06:09
luke-jrC760 = 2.4cm06:09
luke-jrjohnx: don't forget the extra-thick battery/cover06:09
DocScrutinizerjohnx: you need 2 of those, you'll be surprised how much more they weigh and how much larger they are in a stack than what you thought when just extrapolating from one06:09
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: just extrapolating from one, I'd have thought N810*2 was thicker than C76006:10
luke-jrvisibly, I mean06:11
luke-jralso, 2x depth != 2x weight06:11
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luke-jrboth weigh about the same IMO06:11
luke-jrmaybe C760 is slightly heavier06:11
johnxso while you're making this monstrosity, could you make me a modernized SL5500 phone?06:13
luke-jrphones are lame06:14
microlithjohnx: N900 is close ;)06:14
microlithbleh, wifi-only devices are lame06:14
luke-jrmicrolith: nowhere near06:14
luke-jrjohnx: just use this monstrosity with a Bluetooth headset ;)06:15
DocScrutinizerno way06:15
johnxmicrolith, yup. It's very close. But, I was one of those weirdos who actually liked having the hardware keyboard be portrait06:15
microlithjohnx: weirdo :p06:15
johnxthe one handed usage beat the hell out of the N90006:16
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DocScrutinizerI'm neither going to wear a BT headset all day and night like a freaking nerd, nor am I inclined to miss calls due to time I need to pair and 'mount' that headset06:16
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: get a Bluetooth headset that sits invisibly in your ear then06:16
luke-jrI, for one, am a proud nerd!06:16
luke-jrSpeedEvil: you think the $800 mark is too low even considering the lack of software costs?06:17
SpeedEvilluke-jr: yes06:17
johnxluke-jr, when you say that, this is what I hear: Give up your stereo hearing so that you can answer calls more quickly, which consists of about 1 - 3% of any given day for me06:17
DocScrutinizerI'd suggest a decent netbook type device for you, with correctly built GPRS functionality that allows you to wear BT headset and do phonecalls06:18
DocScrutinizer(too low) you bet06:18
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: netbooks are too big06:18
johnxThat's like optimizing an fs driver for the case where the media has I/O errors at the cost of the normal write speed06:18
microlithjohnx: sounds like NAND :)06:19
johnxmicrolith, heh06:19
johnxfair point :)06:19
johnxluke-jr, PC-Z106:19
microlithadmittedly it's hidden behind hardware ECC and eMMC abstraction these days >_>06:19
luke-jrjohnx: exactly, too big06:19
johnxso what are the dimensions on your behemoth?06:20
luke-jr2*N810 :p06:20
johnxwith a 5" screen?06:20
johnxor a 4"?06:20
luke-jrsame size otherwise06:20
DocScrutinizertoo small footprint for the thickness, and for a decent kbd06:21
luke-jrmaybe make the screen itself slightly larger06:21
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: you say this only because you never used a C76006:21
johnxadmittedly the C760 was pretty chubby :P06:22
luke-jrC760 was perfect for its time06:22
DocScrutinizerwtf is c76006:22
SpeedEvilluke-jr: To clarify point about price - I would be surprised if you could make 1000 for under 600K - parts and setup costs.06:22
SpeedEvilluke-jr: which makes selling for 800k really, really dodgy06:22
DocScrutinizernot even for 2 mio06:22
SpeedEvilthat was neglecting design costs06:23
johnxDocScrutinizer, Zaurus C76006:23
SpeedEvilThe mechanical engineering of that slide alone looks nasty06:23
luke-jrSpeedEvil: throw the slide away and just think C760 design06:24
luke-jrit's good enough06:24
DocScrutinizerwait, wasn't that a portrait device?06:25
johnxso, do you really think you have more hardware design experience than the pandora guys?06:25
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: no.06:25
johnxDocScrutinizer, nah. you're thinking 550006:25
luke-jrjohnx: I have none. ☺06:25
SpeedEvilDoes not look pocket friendly.06:25
microlithSpeedEvil: but you get printouts on the go!06:25
DocScrutinizeruhuh, a laser printer :-P06:26
SpeedEvilThat hinge looks either hellafragile, or hella expensive06:26
luke-jrSpeedEvil: it was $800 :P06:26
microlithman, the C860 had me drooling but it was so pricy at the time06:26
luke-jrmicrolith: C860 is the same as C760 except in colour and software :p06:26
DocScrutinizermeh, cya dudes06:26
microlithyeah but the C760 wasn't on sale in 200306:26
luke-jrI flashed the C860 bootloader just for the heck of it06:26
johnxlater DocScrutinizer06:26
SpeedEvilluke-jr: If you are willing tro make an initial order of 50K or so, then the prices on lots of stuff goes way down.06:27
luke-jrSpeedEvil: cool.06:27
luke-jrbut probably not so far down as to make it affordable to 50k people06:27
SpeedEvilThat's the other problem, yes.06:27
luke-jrnow if the price could be pushed down to say $300 or so, I could see selling a lot…06:28
luke-jrbut not at $800 ea06:28
luke-jrheh, maybe in Japan…06:28
SpeedEvilBefore the n900 there was - probably - an exploitable gap in the medium-end 'smartphone/microlaptop' market.06:28
johnxlose the camera, lose the rediculous slider, lose some case quality, and now you've got a pandora ...06:28
SpeedEvilThe n900 killed that market.06:29
luke-jrjohnx: except a Pandora is crap? :P06:29
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luke-jrfixed LOW amount of RAM06:29
SpeedEvilPandora is crap for a reason.06:29
luke-jrIIRC basically no internal storage06:29
luke-jrslow CPU06:29
johnxit's not crap *given it's history*06:29
SpeedEvilTake most of your specs.06:29
johnxI'm totally amazed they pulled it off, still06:30
DocScrutinizerat least pandora is delivering06:30
SpeedEvilThat's a first cut at design specs. You then go and look at what SoCs are available.06:30
SpeedEvilFor example - seperate CPU and GPU is complete madness.06:30
luke-jrjohnx: by the time it shipped, it was obsolete06:30
microlithluke-jr: but nonetheless, it shipped06:30
johnxluke-jr, given that yours will never ship, can I call it obsolete now?06:30
microlithas opposed to dying on the line06:31
luke-jrjohnx: ☺06:31
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: you're aware you can't take advance payment from customers and manufs insist in paying the whole lot on manuf time or even before?06:31
luke-jrtell that to Pandora06:31
johnxActually, you might have been able to do something like that, except the pandora guys kinda spoiled it for you :P06:31
DocScrutinizerdon't need to - they've been there and we've been06:32
luke-jrjohnx: yeah06:32
luke-jrafter Pandora, nobody's going to pre-pay for something06:32
SpeedEvilUnless there is a massive name involved.06:32
SpeedEvilForex - n900.06:33
johnxalso, keep in mind that the pandora guys already had a huge amount of positive reputation with the people they were asking for money from06:33
SpeedEvilPandora was gpx2?06:33
DocScrutinizerand minimum reasonable prod lot size is 10k06:33
johnxer, it was from the people who *re-sold* the gp2x06:33
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luke-jranyhow, I'd be glad to "sell" my ideas to a big company in exchange only for the product :P06:34
SpeedEvilThere is nothing innovative there to sell IMO.06:34
SpeedEvilIt's a shopping list of obviously nice features.06:34
SpeedEvilThat's not a sensible design unless it's fleshed out.06:35
SpeedEvilAnd you can't do that easily from where you are.06:35
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DocScrutinizerand any huge manuf will tell ya gtfo we got our own shopping lists06:35
SpeedEvilFor example - you can't get docs to choose between mobile chipsets.06:35
luke-jrobviously no existing mobile chipsets can fit the bill06:36
luke-jrunless Qualcomm opens that r300-based GPU06:36
johnxSpeedEvil, it's ok. his choice is pretty much the OMAP34xx anyways :)06:36
SpeedEviljohnx: Sure.06:36
luke-jrjohnx: OMAP34xx couldn't come close06:36
luke-jrOMAP4 maybe, but not unless PowerVR gets opened06:36
johnxor 35xx or whatever one is made to be sold in "small" quanitities06:36
SpeedEviljohn: but - if the above came out in 2 years time - it's gonna look vrery slow06:36
johnxSpeedEvil, it looks slow today :) but I don't think he has much choice06:37
DocScrutinizer*yawn* and l8r06:37
luke-jrjohnx: dual core 1 GHz is plenty for most people06:37
johnx'night DocScrutinizer :)06:37
luke-jrand some website said it's faster than Atoms :p06:37
johnxluke-jr, yeah, but you cant buy that chipset in small enough quantity06:37
SpeedEvilSaying 'dual core 1ghz' doesn't make one magically appear06:37
luke-jrSpeedEvil: there's a couple already06:38
luke-jrQualcomm and TI at least have one06:38
SpeedEvilOrderable in quantities of 10K?06:38
luke-jrirrelevant to whatever big company might make it06:38
SpeedEvilYour best bet is probably to wander round china.06:39
luke-jrwell then I'll just use a Loongson MIPS SoC06:39
microlithmmm, performance 10 years behind the times!06:39
johnxwell it maybe be slow, but at least it has poor power management!06:40
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luke-jrSpeedEvil: you've got plenty of barriers for *me* to ever make it… but I never intended to make it06:40
luke-jrI just want some big company to make it06:41
luke-jrwhy won't they?06:41
microlithbecause they have to report quarterly profits06:41
SpeedEvilBecause your shopping list of features is uninteresting.06:41
johnxluke-jr, step in line and prepare to pre-order the Nokia N9, citizen-consumer06:41
SpeedEvilMuch like I want a 4:3 monitor, and a new 4:3 laptop06:41
luke-jrjohnx: why? looks useless06:41
johnxluke-jr, because it will actually come to market06:42
SpeedEvilUninteresting to the corporate world that is.06:42
luke-jrSpeedEvil: corporate world doesn't use over half the list of replaced devices?06:42
luke-jror you mean just from the standpoint that they can make more profit from cheaper devices?06:43
luke-jrand they're too buried in money to think they might want to do something for their own personal use?06:43
SpeedEvilReal men don't use computers.06:44
luke-jryet another bug in capitalism06:44
SpeedEvilReal men have people to do that for them.06:44
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N900forevaany news on meego on n900?06:44
DocScrutinizerthey got secretaries to do that kinda tedious boring shit for them06:44
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: :-D06:44
SpeedEvilExtreme platforms come from basically either startups that can blow shitloads of VC money and then typically fold.06:45
SpeedEvilOr from large makers that can offer a 'premium' line alongside their regular line at 5-10* the price06:45
johnxor from large companies doing experiments that are designed to attract a certain kind of user, with the hope of possibly being made profitable later06:46
SpeedEvilAnd can plow back some of the money from the lower lines into subsidising dev of the premium -as the technolog from it will slowly filter down into the main lines over the years06:46
johnx(aka 770 / N8x0)06:46
luke-jrjohnx: but that's the low end of "extreme platforms" :P06:47
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johnxand then there are total geeks who sneak into high positions in companies and create Linux-based pocket dictionaries :>06:47
johnxaka zaurus06:48
luke-jrkinda explains why Sharp killed it06:48
N900forevawill there be PR 1.3 ?06:48
luke-jrN900foreva: if you go to sleep, you might dream it06:49
johnxN900foreva, there was going to be, but they said if one more person asked about it, they'd cancel it. So you just spoiled it for everyone06:49 n900 is oficially abandonware then06:49
johnxN900foreva, people are working on Meego06:49
johnxMaemo 5 is abandonware06:50
SpeedEvilSomeone inhaling a little deeply there I think.06:50
N900forevabut there will be no meego for n90006:50
microlithnot a Nokia Official release06:51
luke-jrN900foreva: yes there will06:51
johnxSpeedEvil, terrifyingly, I could actually see that being used for pitching products06:51
microlithbut unofficially, yes06:51
johnxN900foreva, why won't there be?06:51
DocScrutinizerN900foreva: please stop stating FUD and nonsense as facts06:51
N900forevahow good will it be...this unoficial shit?06:51
johnxN900foreva, help us and it might be really good06:51
N900forevadid you guys see this?!06:52
N900forevaits in chinese or some other shit but kinda interesting06:52
* DocScrutinizer wonders what a troll like that one wants from meego, while calling 'nonofficial' shit :-S06:53
luke-jrN900foreva: Nokia is paying people to make MeeGo work on N90006:53
DocScrutinizerthere's nothing better than proprietary supported FOSS - or what?06:53
N900forevain that chinese video meego is really slow..06:53
johnxN900foreva, that06:54
johnxthat is generally the way pre-alpha software looks06:54
N900forevai know,,,,just sayin06:54
DocScrutinizer'just saying' is remarkably close to "just trolling for fun"06:55
N900forevaDocScrutinizer: open your mind my friend... it doesnt hurt to liesten to others06:56
johnxas long as there's something to listen to ...06:56
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DocScrutinizerI hurts my nerves to listen (and monitor) all the noise in this tiny channel06:56
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DocScrutinizerN900foreva: general policy here is we aren't interested in noise06:57
N900forevaDocScutinizer: if you dont like the openess of the internet may I suggest taking on a different hobby?06:57
DocScrutinizerand opinions are like assholes, everybody got one06:57
johnxN900foreva, if you want to be annoying, start your own channel06:57
DocScrutinizerN900foreva: may I suggest to you to respect channel policy06:57
N900forevaam I not Doc?06:58
DocScrutinizerto use your nice wording: just saying it smells like trolling06:59
DocScrutinizerand I got some reputation over the last few weeks to hate trolling06:59
ColdFyrei like trolls with pink hair06:59
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N900forevathats too bad... sometimes trollers have some valid points...06:59
DocScrutinizerwe aren't interested07:00
N900forevaDocScrutinizer: who is "we" ?07:00
microlithrarely does a troll have a -new- or -insightful- point07:00
DocScrutinizerthe channel07:00
johnxN900foreva, him and me07:00
microlithmostly they just hammer on some old-hat thing or get rude07:00
N900forevaDocScrutinizer: so you want this channel to be a love fest?07:01
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microlithN900foreva: putting some thought in your statements (and reading up on the subject at hand) helps enormously :)07:01
johnxthe problem with trolling, is that even if a troll has a valid point, their way of expressing it is usually so distracting and divisive that nothing useful comes out of the discussion (argument)07:01
DocScrutinizerN900foreva: I explained to you about general chammel policy and you can read the topic. I'm not going to continue this nonsense conversation07:02
N900forevaguys... dont you think...and please dont take it the wrong way... dont you think you should get off your high horse sometimes?07:02
johnxN900foreva, about what?07:02
ColdFyreis it absurd to expect that being logged into skype on the n900 would not have the ability to reduce the battery life by ~75%?07:03
N900forevaits interesting how some people are totaly disgusted with this community....especially TMO07:03
SpeedEvilColdFyre: yes07:03
johnxN900foreva, You mean why don't we all just go around complaining about the lack of PR1.3 and bitching about the lack of an official Meego for the N900?07:03
johnxyeah, that sounds productive07:04
johnxwhy didn't I think of that?07:04
N900forevaColdFyre: forget skype on n900.... it eats battery like hell...07:04
SpeedEvilColdFyre: skype is p2p07:04
SpeedEvilColdFyre: 3G modems _suck_ power when asked to do constant activity.07:04
ColdFyrestupid question, would the number of contacts make a difference?07:04
N900forevamy n900 lasts about 6 hours....thats without skype07:05
disco_stuIPV6is the n900 ipv6 enabled ?07:05
N900forevabattery life isnt n900's strongest suite07:05
ColdFyreand SpeedEvil oddly i get the same battery life with skype using gsm/3g/wifi07:05
GAN900johnx, it's certainly ones right as a consumer, though.07:06
N900forevaColdFyre: number of contacts does not is simply badly implemented on the n90007:06
DocScrutinizerN900foreva sounds friggin like n900lova n900hater, dunno what other nicks he burned with a ban07:07
johnxGAN900, ah, I must have stumbled into the consumers' channel. Could you direct me to the hackers' channel?07:07
ColdFyrehow could it be badly implemented?07:07
N900forevaColdFyre: dont know mate07:07
N900forevaJust trying to help you07:07
SpeedEvilBut, you're not.07:08
SpeedEvilSaying 'it doesn't work because it doesn't work' doesn't help anyone.07:08
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DocScrutinizerdisco_stuIPV6: there's an experimental IPv6 stack for N900 somewhere07:09
N900forevaColdFyre: i dont know what to tell you mate... all i know is skype sucks battery on my n900... the fanbois here might disagree and crucify me....just expressing my own experience07:09
johnxI don't think anyone disagrees that skype drinks battery life out of the N90007:10
microlith3G is a huge battery eater, just having skype active hasn't impacted my device's life on 2.5G07:10
johnxI wonder what the experience is on other devices ...07:10
N900forevai dont see a difference between wlan and 3g to be honest07:10
DocScrutinizerN900foreva: warning for offense against general channel members (fanbois)07:11
N900forevaDoc: i said "might" and "Some"....thats an offense? Are you denying there are N900 supporters in this channel?07:12
microlithN900foreva: why is it that everyone with a criticizm agains the N900 feels a need to insult or attack even -some- members of the N900 userbase?07:12
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microlithjust go read the forums, you'll see07:13
DocScrutinizerI'm more and more convinced N900foreva == n900lova07:13
N900forevai gave up on TM)07:13
johnxN900foreva, so now you're trying to bring this channel to TMO's level?07:14
N900forevaever since nokia moved on to intel and meego this community has been in disarray and there are some very edgy individuals...which is understandable07:15
johnxN900foreva, yes. there have been edgy individuals and more and more trolls07:16
N900forevadefine a "troll" folks....I'm listening07:16
johnxsomeone who purposefully tries to stir up trouble07:16
N900forevajohnx: specifics please07:17
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microlithhe defined a troll07:17
microlitheverything else is just methods07:17
sandst1"the fanbois here might  disagree and crucify me....07:17
sandst1that's kinda an engadget comment07:17
johnxtrouble, as in, disagreement, reprisal, etc07:17
N900foreva"stir up trouble".... by having a preference or opinion different from yours? dont you think you learn and advance by listening to others? isnt that how humanity advances?07:18
johnxUsually trolls have nothing new to say, but manage to phrase it in the way most likely to annoy other people and 'push their buttons'07:18
N900forevaDocScrutinizer: what are you trying to prove mr Sherlock Holmes?07:19
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N900forevaN900lover was not me07:19
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o microlith07:19
*** microlith sets mode: -o microlith07:19 not trying to cause trouble... i want an intelligent discussion....07:20
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sandst1drop stuff like "it's in chinese or some other shit" and we're on teh way to a nicer discussion07:21
johnxN900foreva, about what?07:22
johnxN900foreva, so you're here to try and get involved in maemo/meego development?07:23
N900forevano...been there, done that07:23
johnxWell, if you're after insider info on the future of Maemo/Meego on the N900, the first place to look probably *is* t.m.o07:24
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DocScrutinizer[N900lova] ok... i jus wanna have a harm intended peeps07:25
DocScrutinizer<N900foreva> not trying to cause trouble... i want an intelligent discussion....07:25
N900forevaguys....why cant you have some fun sometimes and let loose? isnt the world too serious as it is? DocScrutinizer: I am looking at you too07:26
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johnx"let loose"? Now it's your turn to define what that means. Do you want someone to play checkers against or ... ?07:28
N900forevanah....just joke and poke fun07:28
EdLinI don't hear anyone laughing07:29
N900forevathat's what i mean....maybe we should be laughing more often?07:29
* johnx is waiting for the joke :)07:29
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EdLinYou know why they call weight "weight"? Because you have to wait so long before it changes! Good joke?07:32
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fluxedlin, I think it would be made even better if you explained it!07:34
EdLinflux: say "wait" and "weight" aloud, hopefully you'll get it.07:34
fluxany joke can be enhanced by explaining it in excruciating detail07:34
fluxOH WAI, right! hah. haa.07:34
EdLinflux: the more times you tell a joke, the funnier it gets.07:35
johnxflux, it might also be good to include a brief history of the joke's origins07:35
EdLinthe origins? Me.07:35
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johnxmaybe throw in some notes on the etymology of the words that form the pun07:35
spinningcompasshomophones are tricky07:36
johnxI think you could probably get a 50 minute lecture out of that one07:36
EdLinspinningcompass: a homophone is a pink phone owned by a male.07:36
spinningcompassEdLin: You're thinking of an iPhone.07:36
EdLinspinningcompass: I knew someone would say that. :P07:36
* spinningcompass hits a cymbal07:37
N900forevagoodnight folks07:37
johnx'night N900foreva07:37
johnxcome back for more jokes :)07:37
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EdLinnote that he used the web gateway, probably to avoid an ip ban.07:39
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johnxDocScrutinizer, was trying to figure out how to do that :)07:40
johnx<- IRC n00b07:40
EdLinjohnx: I knew my jokes would make him leave. :)07:40
DocScrutinizer/mode #maemo -o johnx07:41
EdLinthey're known to clear out entire rooms of people.07:41
johnxI bet he's sitting ther thinking. "Jeez. They really *are* a bunch of boring nerds O_o" :)07:41
johnxDocScrutinizer, thanks :)07:41
EdLinjohnx: some clients can just use /deop07:41
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EdLin /deop EdLin07:42
DocScrutinizerjust /opm here ;-)07:42
DocScrutinizerand /dopm07:42
EdLinDocScrutinizer: which client, irssi?07:43
johnxIf I had to ban him, I'd have had to look up the proper form for the pattern :D07:43
DocScrutinizercustom command, defined in Konversation07:43
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DocScrutinizer/kickban n900foreva*!*@*07:43
EdLinDocScrutinizer: oh, I should write that one, except I'm only an op on one channel, and an ircop on a trouble-free small network, so not worth the effort.07:44
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johnxah, right, since he's on the web gateway :) I probably would have accidentally banned the web gateway ...07:44
DocScrutinizerno worries, we had to do that several times07:44
DocScrutinizerwhat's that prog called which identifies authors by analyzing the diction and used words?07:46
EdLinDocScrutinizer: are there any IRC clients for the latest Maemo that use the normal interface? I have xchat on my n810 but it's basically the normal xchat shrunk to a small screen.07:46
DocScrutinizerwhat's 'normal interface' for you?07:47
EdLinDocScrutinizer: yeah07:47
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DocScrutinizerhmm, pidgin seems fully hildonnized but I hate it. xchat for fremantle is rather nice, though not really hildonized07:48
EdLinif not, maybe that would be a good first project for me on the n900. Though I've never written an irc client before. That is, if I manage to save pennies to get an n900 as I've planned.07:48
johnxmight be best to just properly hildonize xchat07:49
DocScrutinizerthe only things I'm missing in n900 xchat is an easy way to zoom fontsize (like in xterm), and finger friendly scrolling07:49
johnxor possibly clean up the interface to some Qt IRC client07:49
EdLinjohnx: yeah, hildonizing xchat would be a good idea too.07:50
johnxbest not to reinvent the wheel :)07:50
* johnx goes back to reinventing the wheel07:50
EdLinit's not really so painful using xchat on the n810, come to think of it, just inelegant.07:50
DocScrutinizerEdLin: on n900 i'm really quite happy with it, since I mapped sh-up/down to scroll07:51
EdLinscrolling is the worst part07:51
johnxon the N800 I used that theme that made all the scroll bars huge07:52
johnxmakes a big difference in usability07:52
sandst1N800 was a 'bit' stylus optimized :)07:53
EdLinjohnx: do you remember what the theme is called? It's probably on the n810 too.07:54
johnxsandst1, I bought mine open box. Never had a stylus until 2009-ish and I had it since a couple weeks after launch07:54
johnxEdLin, let me find it. one sec07:54
asjjohnx: hildonize ksirc :)07:55
DocScrutinizerwell, N8x0 had a menu button - something N900 is painfully missing07:55
johnxyeah. that was awfully nice07:55
johnxI used camkeyd for a while07:55
EdLinDocScrutinizer: I love all of the buttons on my n810. :)07:55
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DocScrutinizerNokia MMI designers thoroughly spoiled that one for N90007:56
t_s_ohow very odd, for some reason the time and date of my N800 had reset it self to 25 april 200807:56
t_s_oat around 22:something07:57
DocScrutinizerremoved battery?07:57
johnxEdLin, just remembered. It was called echowb. I think it's on t.m.o07:57
EdLinjohnx: thanks07:58
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DocScrutinizert_s_o: you should check hwclock07:58
DocScrutinizersee if it's system time or RTC that got 'reset'07:58
DocScrutinizerbtw: BUG - maemo fremantle writes back system time to RTC on shutdown07:59
DocScrutinizerwtf is every system maintainer convinced sysclock is better than RTC?08:00
johnxerr, if you run ntpd, doesn't that change get made to sysclock08:01
DocScrutinizerthere's just one moment where I'd consider systime better than RTC time, that's when systime is adjusted by NTP, GPS or even user interaction08:01
johnxso write it back then, and then skip the write-back at shutdown?08:02
johnxI'd buy that08:02
DocScrutinizerthe very moment it actually gets adjusted08:02
DocScrutinizerjohnx: exactly08:02
DocScrutinizerjohnx: that's what I edit all my machines to do08:02
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t_s_ortc seems to still follow utc or whatever its called08:02
johnxt_s_o, as is right and proper08:02
DocScrutinizert_s_o: nod08:02
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DocScrutinizert_s_o: so just do a `hwclock --hctosys`08:03
t_s_oif i had that installed ;)08:03
DocScrutinizert_s_o: and thanks for confirming my point as elaborated above :-D08:03
Triztwow, I won UK£1M thanks to Nokia ;)
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DocScrutinizerumm, yeah08:05
t_s_oi do wonder tho what caused the reset in the first place08:05
DocScrutinizerrunaway process messing up system time08:05
DocScrutinizerobviously a process with root permissions08:05
t_s_oi have also seen the first couple of icons in the statusbar go missing from what appears to be a graphical "glitch", not sure if its related or not...08:06
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t_s_obah, why is it that mobile seems to have turn google crazy? not only can the archos 5 not have market because its not a phone, to access the free apps on market one need a gmail account, one once set can only be changed with a full reset of the device its set on08:16
t_s_oi sure hope there will be some 4-5" screen size non-phone devices using meego, or the world will have become a less interesting place08:17
Stskeepsi have a 7" non-phone device using meego08:17
Stskeeps(my joggler)08:18
johnxpossibly the culture of the company they absorbed that had written android?08:18
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t_s_oStskeeps: while interesting, its still a x86 device, not a arm device (sorry that i didnt include that detail earlier)08:22
Stskeepst_s_o: admittedly08:22
Stskeepsi like to be arch agnostic08:22
t_s_ojohnx: or at least its leaders. android seems to be danger 2.0 in a way08:22
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DocScrutinizerif only the arch would be agnostic for the OS :-D08:23
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t_s_otho i guess google is also trying to please the carriers so that they will accept android based products into their lineups08:23
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t_s_oStskeeps: sure, i'm just kinda tired of x86, thats all. One x86 based product seems to be other alike.08:23
johnxStskeeps, most agnostics are really just atheists who don't feel like arguing :>08:23
Stskeepsthat too08:24
ColdFyremaemo 6 release date for the n900 is sept 13 o_o08:25
t_s_omaemo 6?08:26
johnxColdFyre, wat?08:26
StskeepsColdFyre: [citation needed]08:26
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t_s_oanother issue is that i would love to see arm act as a open field, rather then tied to the whims of intel and microsoft. But instead it seems to become the whims of carriers and google...08:27
Stskeepsthings are improving in arm field, at least08:27
johnxt_s_o, to be fair, I'm pretty confident that in the long run android will have a positive effect on driver support in the linux kernel08:28
johnxeven if things seem rocky right now08:28
t_s_owell, linaro brings hope, but how long will it take, and how much more ingranined will android have become by then08:28
ColdFyreimagine if xeons were made low enough power to use in mobile devices08:28
* Trizt likes to see some Power 7 based devices08:28
t_s_ojohnx: not as long as google seems to pay zero attention to the decisions related to the main kernel tree08:28
* raster tries to imagine his old dual xeon 450 from 1999 with its heatsinks 5x the tickness of the n90008:29
t_s_oTrizt: or perhaps more mips, like that nanonote?08:29
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TriztI'm a more of a PowerPC/Power kind of person08:30
johnxColdFyre, they'd be called atoms08:30
Stskeepssteampunk mobile devices, a 80286 smartphone08:30
t_s_ojohnx: complete with a nuclear fission mode?08:31
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rasterand each heatsink EACH was 5x the thicnkess08:32
rasterxeon itself was 1-2x thicker08:32
rasterand 2 of them08:32
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rastert_s_o:  linaro is doing positive things08:33
rastertho intel (and meego) likely wont like it08:33
t_s_otime will tell, but in the meantime i'm bored (and perhaps a bit sleepy)08:33
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Stskeepsraster: what won't we like?08:33
Stskeepsbesides the fact linaro is a rather uncertain being, they seem to have their heads screwed okay on08:34
rasterwell linaro is in a way getting the arm worlds act together08:34
Stskeeps.. except for basing anything production on ubuntu ;)08:34
rastereg devidetree for kernel08:34
Stskeepsand? we have meego arm as well08:34
rasteruniversal arm soc kernels08:34
rasterbetter toolchains and so on08:34
Stskeepsbetter toolchains - work in gcc?08:35
rasterthats a necessity08:35
rasternot a desire08:35
rasteritel are into meego for the aim oif pushing atom08:35
Stskeepsprobably, and people are welcome to contribute to meegoa rm08:35
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rasterand linaro is trying to get the linux arm shit together specifically to fight atom08:35
Stskeepswhat better way to fight than to make ARM as easy as x86 to develop for?08:36
rasterand sugar-coating either meego or linaro as anythgin else is just avoding the truth08:36
Triztraster; do they have a money rich backup?08:36
rasterStskeeps:  thats kind of the idea08:36
rasterbut on the other side4 linaro is bound deeply to canonical and cubuntu08:37
Stskeepsthat one always wondered me a bit08:37
raster(though thats not really that widely publicised)08:37
Stskeepsfrankly, if they defined linaro as 'organisation ARM SoC can push money into to have people contribute to open source projects upstream08:37
Stskeepsthen it'd be a lot easier to understand08:37
rasterwhich also makes it a direct competitor to meego too08:37
Stskeepskinda like lobbying through code08:37
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rasterso both on the hw platform and the distro platform its "all out war"08:37
rasterthe only bits they agree on are core os infra08:37
luke-jrsome war08:38
raster(linxu kernel in generla, glibc, x11, dbus etc.)08:38
luke-jrARM is clearly the winner08:38
luke-jrthough I guess Intel has 3D accel08:38
rastereverything else is pretty much diametrically opposed :(08:38
Stskeepsraster: i am worried that their focus on ubuntu might be their fail too08:38
t_s_ountil nvidia gets tegra2 into actual production, if ever08:38
Stskeepsi mean, why focus on packaging -at all-?08:38
Stskeepsfocus on providing drivers for different targets, meego, ubuntu, android08:39
luke-jrt_s_o: nVidia doesn't seem interested in making a real effort afaik08:39
rasterTrizt: - it has moneyed backing08:39
rasterluke-jr:  what 3d accel? intel gfx? hahahahahhaha08:39
Stskeepsand being the central provider for these things08:39
luke-jrraster: better than nothing08:39
t_s_oluke-jr: right now, everything not related to x86 and windows seems to be basically smoke and mirrors to get intel or microsoft to "behave"08:39
raster(i965, and friends)08:39
rasterluke-jr: thats not embedded by a long shot08:39
luke-jrt_s_o: uh?08:39
rasterintel license imgtec for atom08:40
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rasterbecause tyhey dont have anything of their own08:40
luke-jrok, so nobody really has 3D08:40
SpeedEvilI wonder what'd have been the effecrt if intel hadn't ditched strongarm08:40
rasternot for embedded08:40
Stskeepsraster: how do you see the linaro effort from your project pov?08:40
rasterthere are 3 gpu's i know of08:40
luke-jrso ARM has already won08:40
t_s_oluke-jr: basically, tegra2 is nvidia hinting to intel that they can make a rival platform if intel do not relent on the ion issue. While meego is intel going "hey microsoft, wanna support atom?)08:40
luke-jrcuz Atom sucks08:40
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rasterimgtec (most of them - mbc/sgx), arm (mali series) and the former ati gpu (qualcomm's gpu now)08:40
rasterthe otehr day i saw some amd one on an imx5108:41
rasteri dont knwo what that is tho08:41
rasterso i'll not comment until i know more08:41
Stskeepsmeego != intel, just for what it's worth08:41
luke-jrraster: i.MX51 is Qualcomm's08:41
luke-jrwhich is some variant of Radeon r30008:41
rasterbut its performance was so poor - i suspect it was the same as qualcomm's on the snapdragon08:41
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Stskeepsintel might be agressive, but they're not blocking arm in meego08:41
t_s_oStskeeps: i will belive it when i see a official nokia meego firmware ready to install on the n900 for ordinary users08:41
Stskeepst_s_o: uhm, wtf does that have to do with
rasterStskeeps: tyhere more to be done than just drive3rs.08:42
rastertheres integration and packaging08:42
rasterthing slike just fixing up booting for example08:42
luke-jrt_s_o: there would be if Nokia wasn't blocking it08:42
rasterfrankly things li4ek systemd seem the right way to go08:42
rasterand thats really invasive into a distro etc.08:42
Stskeepst_s_o: nokia has decided not to make a official firmware, but this doesn't mean serious resources aren't going into meego ARM.08:42
rasteroh yeah08:43
rasterforgot about tegra208:43
rasterright now tho its a bit of an outlier08:43
luke-jrt_s_o: Nokia is fighting opening things08:43
rasteras its totally bound to nvidia's arm soc that has dropped things like neon08:43
rasterand its also HUGE08:43
t_s_oand yet there are zero arm releases but multiple x86 releases (specifically atom related releases, so no dice on older non-intel hardware, but thats a side-story)08:43
rasterno way that can go in its current packaging into a phone08:43
DocScrutinizerraster: boo08:43
t_s_oso right now outwards meego looks like moblin with a fresh coat of paint08:44
rasterStskeeps: as for linaro - i like the idea. frankly until nokia decided to get in bed with meego it would have been a big plus for maemo08:44
Stskeepst_s_o: zero, what?08:44
rasterbut as sucvh now meego and linaro are diametrically opposed distros08:44
luke-jrjust use Gentoo08:44
rasterlets see how it all turns out08:44
spinningcompassAs long as it supports PyQt, I'm happy.08:45
rasterDocScrutinizer:  docz!08:45
Stskeepsraster: i think there's a lot of collaboration on ARM side to be made, personally08:45
Stskeepsraster: oh, funny question08:45
Stskeepsraster: what is your opinion of what GLESv2 applications should link against on ARM? /usr/lib/ or /usr/lib/ ?08:46
Stskeepssecond one is acceptable in normal packaging guidelines08:46
luke-jrsource code binds to the .so, binaries link with the specific version08:46
luke-jrthe .2 signifies binary compatibility08:47
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Stskeepsluke-jr: except the .so only appears in -devel packages08:47
DocScrutinizermakes sense08:48
Stskeepsso the files include a link to .208:48
rasterStskeeps: oh in general i think so (collaboration)08:48
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luke-jrStskeeps: compiler/linker makes the change from .so to .so.208:48
Stskeepsluke-jr: because of SONAME08:48
rasterbut in the end the business reality is that neither side is going to want to fund something that doesnt better their own cause (or is neutral)08:49
luke-jrcompile scripts just refer to .so08:49
rasterso business-wise there is a clash coming08:49
rasterthe question is - how is it going to be dealt with08:49
Stskeepsluke-jr: problem is, SONAME is .so on GLESv208:49
rasteras for gl-es - well the version is already in the soname08:50
Stskeepsthe .2?08:50
rasterthere is little need to repeat it in the soversion major #08:50
rastertho the v2 honestly should never have been there08:50
luke-jrStskeeps: they should link to :D08:50
Stskeepsthe reason i'm asking is because mesa libEGL/libGLESv2 forces .so.1/so.208:50
luke-jractually no08:50
rasterbut thats also a fault of the gles2.x vs 2.0 standards body08:50
Stskeepswhich is what most people will link against08:50 could be a link to, but not vice-versa08:51
rasterso there is little choice but to put it in the link line explicitly08:51
Stskeepsraster: my personal view is that ARM is partly at fault for missing the boat on moving from being an embedded shop to mobile computing.. so all the environments and licenses center around typical embedded business, like, OE, weird cross compilers, pay-per-device hardware licensing..08:51
rasterbut as such i'd say it should link to /usr/lib/ at compile time08:51
rasterand that is a symlinkt to the real versioned so08:51
luke-jrStskeeps: erm… OE began with mobile computing08:52
Stskeepswe're moving to link to /usr/lib/ in meego and linaro, at least08:52
rasterand well i suspect that is so.1.x.x08:52
Stskeepsluke-jr: it's still a very embedded mindset and not for the faint at heart08:52
rasterie they have a single unbroken api for gles-2.008:52
* luke-jr remembers when OE was known as OpenZaurus ☺08:52
rasterimho glesv2 should have the usual08:53
raster/usr/lib/ -> ->
DocScrutinizer51OE :-/08:54 ->
rasterand the /usr/lib/ is only in the dev packages08:54
rasterso binaries come out linking to
Stskeepsraster: agreed08:54
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Stskeepsi am still not sure why it's .2 on libGLESv2.08:54
rasteri dont see that it should have a major so.2.x08:54
rasterwhy is it 2?08:55
DocScrutinizer  FWIW08:55
Stskeepsmesa decided it was so, it seems08:55
rasterimgtec disagrees08:55
DocScrutinizerseems lib devels never learn to get their vrsioning sorted08:55
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Stskeepsraster: funny fact - reason why they don't do that is because their build system is so broken a proper SONAME can't be set..08:56
rasternever looked08:57
Stskeepseven moorestown SGX went for just symlinking08:57
rasteras such i tont think its imgtec's issue08:57
rasteras they just leave it up to vendors to customise their src08:57
rasterie rebuild it08:57
rasterwho provided the ?08:58
Stskeepshm? usually SoC vendor08:58
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rasterits the soc vendors fault then08:58
rasternot imgtec08:58
rasteror even then08:58
rasternot soc vendor08:58
rasterlikely device vendor08:58
Stskeepswell, code stems from imgtec08:59
rastereg - for n900 nokia will build the gles libs and drivers08:59
rasterits nokias fault08:59
Stskeepsproblem stems from the code used though08:59
rasterdont think so08:59
rastermy glesv2's have a proper version08:59
rasterit happens to be 1.1....09:00
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DocScrutinizer(<raster> its nokias fault) now *that* sounds somewhat familiar :-P09:00
Stskeepsraster: so does moorestown sgx, except there's a symlink to .so.2, heh09:01
Stskeeps.. ducttape galore09:01
DocScrutinizernokia doesn't exactly have any noticeable record of being particularly gifted system maintainers09:02
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs09:02
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Stskeepswe're going to start the morning with an optification discussion. really?09:03
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rasterStskeeps: morestown i believe was provided by precision insight - intel hired them to do a different driver impl.09:03
DocScrutinizerjust felt like quoting another duct tape botch09:03
Stskeepsraster: hm? looks like pretty ordinary sgx to me09:03
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DocScrutinizeror: [2010-08-23 06:59:24] <DocScrutinizer> btw: BUG - maemo fremantle writes back system time to RTC on shutdown09:05
Stskeepshow is that a bug?09:05
DocScrutinizerthough thats heritage09:05
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DocScrutinizersysclock never is better than RTC, on system shutdown09:06
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DocScrutinizerhwclock needs to be adjusted *only* when some startum<low> time source is *adjusting* the system time09:06
DocScrutinizernever(1) on shutdown09:06
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rasterStskeeps: thats my understanding. as opposed with going with the normal imgtec provided drivers they paid precisaion insight to do new ones09:08
rastermaybe thats an earlier atom with the sgx09:08
DocScrutinizeralmost all disros got that wrong, at least by default. Some allow to disable that nonsense via sysconfig/09:08
Stskeepsraster: that's probably gma500 you're thinking of09:08
rasteri may be mixing it up as too many codenames etc. floating aboiut09:08
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rasterahhh ok09:08
rasterthat rings a bell09:08
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prontowow skype has a massive bug09:16
prontolike it littery turns off the phone09:16
DocScrutinizer51Stskeeps: suspend (to disk/ram) on OM/OE kernel even does a totally weird thing: it calculates skew between RTC and sysclock on suspend and restores this same skew on resume - alas plus some seconds error due to latency09:17
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DocScrutinizer51Stskeeps: generally sysclosk always is way off from correct time, comapred to RTC09:17
* rmrfchik lost trying to build package in QtCreator09:17
DocScrutinizer51and using adjtime makes things even much much worse09:18
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DocScrutinizer51Stskeeps: as a general rule never adjust RTC without adjusting sysclock same moment09:19
DocScrutinizer51which implicitly disqualifies sysclock as a time source for RTC adjustment09:19
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DocScrutinizer51(of course this lets aside the deprecation of sudden time changes on systime. In real life I rarely ever seen anybody feeling concened abot that though, esp on single user systems)09:24
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mece'ello 'ello maemites09:31
mecewhat's new and exciting?09:31
Stskeepsanother work week.09:32
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meceyay verily yay09:32
luke-jrDocScrutinizer51: why not just grab clock from GPS?09:32
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DocScrutinizeryeah why? dunno, ask Nokia09:32
Stskeepsthat one i don't understand either09:32
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Stskeepsthere's a massive framework for time setting, closed source09:33
Stskeepsand why does my device still ask for time/date in first boot09:33
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ShadowJKit asks for time and suggests the correct time itself09:33
DocScrutinizerthey screwed it, as usual09:33
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DocScrutinizerknow why? just because nokia doesn't like peer review09:34
DocScrutinizerand seems meego isn't any better wrt that09:35
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DocScrutinizerobviously, due to limited HR Nokia doesn't even allow much internal peer review09:36
* Stskeeps glares at DocScrutinizer and goes do work09:36
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DocScrutinizer51no need to glare at me. I'm just telling what is obvious from looking at it from outside09:42
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DocScrutinizer51from my POV and experience there's just so much difference between bme and sensorfw (or whatyacallit), regarding missing abstract system integration / API and operation mode whitepapers. The existing open source is just a small slice of the cake09:46
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johnx|debookDocScrutinizer, actually, I've been curious about what kind how openmoko handled power management 'policy'09:48
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lpotterheh. there was none09:48
johnx|debookwell there isn't for maemo (or meego yet, AFAIK)09:48
johnx|debookbut I had some ideas, so I'm going to try and hack something together and see exactly how dumb I am :)09:49
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DocScrutinizer51depends on your definition of OM and of 'power mgmt'09:49
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johnx|debooknot just power management, but what sets 'policy'09:49
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DocScrutinizer51policy for what exactly?09:50
johnx|debookWhat I'm thinking of how to the whole set of currently running programs more aware about the current state of the device09:50
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johnx|debookHave you seen dbus-scripts and/or ActionManager?09:51
DocScrutinizer51ideally they don't need to09:51
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johnx|debookFor example, I'd really like my device to be pull music/movies down from my desktop sometime during the night, as long as it's on wifi and plugged into power09:53
johnx|debookor I'd really like my torrent client to turn off when I unplug the charger09:53
DocScrutinizer51a prog might be interested in a number of things, like 'online' 'visible' and dunno what. A general power mgmt policy though is largely useless for programs09:53
johnx|debookI think that's fair09:53
johnx|debookso maybe I misspoke when I said 'power management'09:53
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DocScrutinizer51for a general statement on OM you might want to look into for that09:54
DocScrutinizer51apps allocate/free and query particular resources09:55
DocScrutinizer51fso does the rest09:55
johnx|debookwhat if an app isn't in a position where it can query the current state? (ie, if it's not running)09:55
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johnx|debookfor example, if I wanted my torrent client to *start* as long as some conditions were met?09:56
DocScrutinizer51you can have rules for certain resorce events talking to/starting certain dbus clients09:57
ColdFyreinvoke it via shell script?09:57
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DocScrutinizer51e.g on inbound sms fso will try to talk to and implicitly start fsopimd09:58
johnx|debookDocScrutinizer, ok, that is exactly what I'm looking for then :) I kind of figured I was re-inventing the wheel, but I couldn't find prior art09:58
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DocScrutinizer51inbound call does same with dialer-ui - whatever its called on fso09:59
* johnx|debook reads10:00
DocScrutinizer51check out http://freesmartphone.org10:00
johnx|debookyup, on it10:00
johnx|debooklooking at the architecture10:00
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DocScrutinizerarchitecture is nice (hehe, a tiny bit is by me :-p)10:01
johnx|debookmaking this face: >_< because I just spent my sunday night reading 'dbus-scripts.c' trying to get a feel for working with dbus and glib in C10:02
DocScrutinizerping mickeyl if you want 1. hand info10:02
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johnx|debookI'll read a bit before I waste a whole bunch of other people's time without knowing if anyone in else in maemo/meego land is even interested :)10:02
DocScrutinizerbtw SHR/FSO will come to N900 in a short while :-)10:02
johnx|debookvia Meego? or to Maemo 5?10:03
Stskeepshopefully we will all be dead and gone by then10:03
johnx|debookaaah, the whole stack?10:03
DocScrutinizeryup, lol10:03
Stskeepsnext question is why would anyone want that10:03
DocScrutinizerask the people who seem to want it, not me :-P10:04
johnx|debookStskeeps, I'm not sure yet, but the policy stuff might have been what we were looking for for a while ...10:04
DocScrutinizermy words10:04
DocScrutinizersince meego first days10:04
Stskeepsshr was part reason why i wanted to throw my FR out the window when getting it10:04
DocScrutinizerbecause it obsoleted mer?10:05
johnx|debookmer obsoleted itself :>10:06
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Stskeepsjohnx|debook: at least meego seems to be the kicker to move to a more open platform with open telephony stack, redistributable firmware, bme, sgx..10:07
Stskeepsupstream kernel..10:08
Stskeepsso i like to think we made a difference somewhere10:08
johnx|debookStskeeps, I think we did10:08
johnx|debookEven if it was mainly to serve as a warning to others :)10:08
Stskeeps'be careful what you wish for'10:08
Stskeepssomeone suggested to port maemo gtk to meego..10:09
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DocScrutinizerjohnx|debook: /shr10:09
johnx|debookBut the lack of some kind of policy daemon or service in meego weirds me out10:09
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Stskeepsjohnx|debook: there's one actually, or supposed to come10:09
Stskeepsi can't recall the name offhand10:10
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johnx|debookI couldn't find the info...and last time I asked in #meego no one could tell me if they'd have cron or if scheduling would happen some other way10:10
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Stskeepstimed is coming now10:11
johnx|debookI think I'm failing to R the proper FM :)10:11
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johnx|debookdirections to its location appreciated :P10:11
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* DocScrutinizer frowns at timed and other non compatible cron replacements10:12
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Stskeepscron's kinda crap for the typical alarm/'wake me up at this point'10:13
DocScrutinizerthere's no obvious rationale why crond can't learn to behave on embedded devices, with RTC Alarms even10:13
Stskeepspatch would never go upstream10:14
DocScrutinizerreinventing the wheel all the time10:14
johnx|debookthough really, it also shouldn't be hard to patch timed to read crontabs to generate events10:14
mortinianacron! :P10:14
DocScrutinizerfsck anacron10:14
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DocScrutinizerjohnx|debook: so then I'd not care if it's called timed or crond. I'd simply create a symlink in /bin :-P10:15
iliuswhen i add maemo repos to ubuntu and update, i get this error:10:15
iliusW: GPG error: fremantle Release: The following signatures couldn't be verified because the public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY E40DC434616730BD10:15
johnx|debookor just make a crontab that will take a properly formatted crontab file and create a timed event for you ...10:15
Stskeepsit's not an error, it says W:10:16
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iliusubuntu 10.04 i38610:16
johnx|debookilius, it's 'as intended' according to Nokia. You'd have to take it up with them directly. I suggest calling their customer support :)10:16
DocScrutinizerjohnx|debook: that's roundabout how fsocrond works10:17
iliusbut all of repos is ignored or huted10:17
DocScrutinizerjohnx|debook: (suggested by me :-P)10:17
iliusIgn fremantle/free Translation-en_US10:17
iliusIgn fremantle/non-free Translation-en_US10:17
iliusIgn fremantle/sdk Release.gpg10:17
johnx|debookilius, that doesn't mean what you think it means10:18
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iliuswhen downloading index, most of files is Faild or Hit10:19
johnx|debookok failed will have a reason why next to them10:19
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johnx|debookactually, just pastebin the whole output10:20
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Stskeepsilius: also, why are you trying to insert maemo repos into ubuntu?10:20
johnx|debookmornin' hrw, lbt :)10:20
Stskeepsonly insane people do that10:20
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johnx|debookhey. I tried to do it and make it work for like a year. I learned my lesson ...10:20
iliusStskeeps: yes10:20
iliusStskeeps: it supports i38610:21
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Stskeepsilius: still..10:21
johnx|debookIt probably won't work the way you think it will work10:21
aboyercan i use the latest debian-squeeze devkit (ie: v1.0.5) for maemo development?10:22
ShadowJKUsing repos from distro X in distro Y usually results in disaster :p10:22
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jacekowskiaboyer: use lenny10:22
johnx|debookilius, yes. That run of apt-get update completted successfully10:22
iliusjohnx|debook: but no package is index except for python-conic !!10:23
johnx|debookgo read the lists apt downloaded for you10:23
aboyerjacekowski: i'm trying to build my app with maemo-sdk-symbols and a post on the mailing list recomends squeeze (
DocScrutinizerjohnx|debook: oops, s/fsocrond/fsoatd/10:24
johnx|debookilius,  in /var/lib/apt/lists/10:24
aboyerjacekowski: however, it an old thread and there is a newer version of the sqeeze devkit now..10:24
DocScrutinizerjohnx|debook: the fsocrond was suggested by me, but not yet implemented it seems10:24
jacekowskiaboyer: use lenny10:25
jacekowskiaboyer: other devkits have issues10:25
aboyeralright, where do i get it?10:25
jacekowskiyou should have it in /scratchbox/packages/10:25
jacekowskior somewhere10:25
jacekowski /scratchbox/devkits/10:25
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johnx|debookStskeeps, any idea about the name of that policy daemon for meego?10:33
Stskeepsjohnx|debook: sorry, it still escapes me10:34
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johnx|debookthink it's on gitorious or would it still be on the drawing board?10:34
Stskeepspossibly on gitorious or in source rpms10:34
johnx|debookthanks. I'll try and track it down10:35
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