IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2010-08-23

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Stskeeps	specs started to appear now?	00:00
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johnx	Stskeeps, on the RM-680 / N9? I think we always knew it would be OMAP3, and there have been suggestions of more RAM for a while	00:03
satmd	(:	00:03
johnx	so you might as well just confirm the rumors with your internal knowledge :>	00:03
Stskeeps	i still recall fondly when we tried out the rx-51's in may	00:03
ShadowJK	omap3 and multitouch iirc	00:04
GAN900	Stskeeps, about?	00:04
GAN900	Stskeeps, and you count from the ANNOUNCEMENT date?	00:04
johnx	it's the standard tick-tock cycle. tick = entirely new architecture. tock = refinement	00:05
luke-jr	Stskeeps: there's tear-down photos	00:05
johnx	Stskeeps, yeah. I was totally right about it being essentially final hardware, BTW :P	00:05
GAN900	Jaffa / luke-jr, OMAP36x.	00:05
GAN900	So, could be 1GHz.	00:05
luke-jr	could be?	00:05
luke-jr	single core?	00:05
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lcuk	oi, we just had this same discussion about NOT DISCUSSING SPECULATIVE LEAKED HARDWARE	00:06
luke-jr	we did?	00:06
johnx	ah, sorry. Was probably asleep at the time	00:06
GAN900	luke-jr, define "core". But, OMAP3 is Cortex A8.	00:06
GAN900	lcuk, meh.	00:06
* GAN900 has ops here.		00:06
luke-jr	GAN900: so pretty much obsolete	00:06
GAN900	And I say meh.	00:06
ShadowJK	Well the beagleboard had similar specs as n900, so I'm going to guess it'll be like beagleboard-xm :P	00:06
lcuk	luke-jr, some did in #meego, granted it wasnt here but I recognise some faces that were :P	00:07
johnx	ShadowJK++	00:07
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GAN900	ShadowJK, except that's not 45nm, is it?	00:07
luke-jr	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=60845 :P	00:07
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ShadowJK	well it's 1GHz, dunno	00:08
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luke-jr	that's what Nokia should make..	00:08
GAN900	Tapping the close button when MicroB locks scrolling on an arrow key press will make it crash.	00:08
GAN900	ShadowJK, yeah, I haven't been paying any attention to the Beagle progress.	00:09
luke-jr	GAN900: minor bug, since you want it to go away anyhow	00:09
GAN900	luke-jr, annoying having to see the banner, though.	00:09
luke-jr	tbh I've never seen what happens on Maemo when a user app crashes	00:09
johnx	luke-jr, is that the same design as the Zaurus Cxx00 and Cxx0?	00:09
luke-jr	johnx: I wasn't aware there was a difference. Neither?	00:09
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GAN900	How's that tilted screen work on the N97?	00:10
luke-jr	johnx: it's capable of C760 movement (minus rotating screen) combined with N900 movement	00:10
GAN900	Not thrilled about it for N9.	00:10
Dantonic	hey do any of you edit your videos take with your N900?	00:10
Dantonic	what program do you use?	00:10
ShadowJK	the N97 keyboard is a joke	00:10
johnx	luke-jr, aah. so wireless screen with its own battery? :>	00:10
luke-jr	johnx: no	00:10
luke-jr	johnx: wires in the moving hinge :P	00:11
ShadowJK	it makes the zx spectrum keyboard look good	00:11
johnx	and what's the advantage of that layout compared to the standard 'convertible tablet' aka zaurus cxx?	00:11
luke-jr	johnx: you can use it like you use a N900	00:11
GAN900	Anybody extrapolate some dimensions from those photos?	00:12
luke-jr	johnx: also, the N900-movement would have multiple locking points	00:12
johnx	we could do it based off the size of the micro usb port, jah?	00:12
luke-jr	johnx: so you could have the screen covering the number keys when you don't need them	00:12
GAN900	Yeah	00:13
luke-jr	or only show the bottom row of keys (shortcut keys?)	00:13
johnx	that sounds pretty involved for small gains ...	00:13
GAN900	Or that Chinese person's hand. g	00:13
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luke-jr	johnx: well, it's also harder to break the screen connector? :P	00:13
luke-jr	johnx: rotate a C760 screen the wrong way and oops	00:13
luke-jr	but it might take up too much space I guess	00:14
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johnx	mine still works fine ...	00:14
luke-jr	mine too	00:14
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luke-jr	actually, my 802.11b card stopped working for it a year or so ago	00:14
johnx	and I'd bet that your LCD cable would get destroyed pretty quickly sliding all over the place	00:14
luke-jr	I did the magic reengineering thing…	00:14
johnx	ha! I killed 3 so far	00:14
luke-jr	I ripped the plastic apart, took the board out, glared at it, then scotch taped the plastic back on	00:15
luke-jr	works as good as new now	00:15
johnx	I did that to one and it worked for a bit longer	00:15
luke-jr	hehe	00:15
luke-jr	it gets pretty hot w/o the complete plastic actually	00:15
luke-jr	I was kinda hoping there'd be room to cut the board shorter and just stick it entirely inside the C760, but oh well	00:16
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* johnx sighs at Sharp for missing the boat, again and again and again		00:16
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johnx	and Nokia for not learning from their successes and failures with Linux	00:17
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luke-jr	johnx: I think the problem is people don't want to spend $800 on any handheld device	00:17
microlith	they do, just not all at once	00:18
Appiah	maybe it takes time to learn?	00:18
luke-jr	and are too stupid to realize they spend about that much on all the individual devices total	00:18
microlith	they like the illusion of a cheap handset	00:18
microlith	and they think in "how much can I afford per month" and not "how much will this cost me overall"	00:18
luke-jr	microlith: well, I suppose the downside of having all-in-one is you destroy it all at once…	00:18
johnx	thinking more about the way they approached the community, but also about the form factors	00:18
microlith	luke-jr: assuming you're irresponsible with your property, yes	00:19
luke-jr	microlith: that's the only reason for a cheap handset IMO	00:19
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microlith	well there's cheap then there's "cheap"	00:19
luke-jr	:P	00:19
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DocScrutinizer51	brolin_empey: (mini PCB) it's glued with doublesided sticky	00:19
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luke-jr	I'd probably be worried about it too, if I didn't still have my C760 :P	00:19
luke-jr	so I know from experience I take good enough care to last long beyond use	00:20
johnx	my SL5500 is still working :)	00:20
microlith	speaking of Zaurus	00:20
johnx	and I still miss the portrait layout + keyboard a lot	00:20
luke-jr	johnx: I'm not interested in non-clamshells :P	00:20
microlith	apparently it's taken ~5 years but I saw none of them in Akihabara these last two weeks	00:21
luke-jr	at least not the Zaurus non-clamshell style	00:21
johnx	microlith, sadness	00:21
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johnx	I think I caught a picture at the height of the Zaurus Cxx used market	00:21
* johnx digs up a pic		00:21
microlith	though I did see other hardware, a Sharp device obviously, running Ubuntu	00:21
luke-jr	microlith: PC-Z1?	00:21
microlith	believe so	00:21
microlith	i.MX51 based	00:21
luke-jr	microlith: too big for a pocket, right?	00:22
johnx	mmmm	00:22
microlith	not my pockets :)	00:22
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microlith	oh	00:22
microlith	not that	00:22
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luke-jr	XD	00:22
brolin_empey	DocScrutinizer51: Did you really brick your N900 while disassembling it, as SpeedEvil claims?	00:22
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microlith	PC-T1	00:22
microlith	err	00:22
microlith	Z1	00:22
johnx	http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnxx/452167911/	00:23
johnx	microlith, were you at that store?	00:23
microlith	johnsq: probably, didn't see a single Zaurus at any used hardware store	00:23
DocScrutinizer51	well, by strange incidence the FPC failed after reassembly, but we have similar reports for several users who didn't disassemble	00:23
microlith	huge racks of iPhones and iPod Touches though :/	00:23
* luke-jr wonders where microlith lives to see Zaurus on a regular basis		00:23
brolin_empey	DocScrutinizer51: And should I remove the mini PCB before trying to resolder the micro USB socket?	00:23
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DocScrutinizer51	sure	00:24
microlith	luke-jr: was back in 2003 when I was previously in Tokyo	00:24
luke-jr	I'm pretty sure I've always been the only person for like 100 miles with a C760/N810/N900	00:24
johnx	ah. they weren't all that common even when I was there, except for this one incredibly cramped store. I don't remember tha name sadly	00:24
microlith	when the CXXX series was still getting new models	00:24
microlith	johnx: when was that?	00:24
DocScrutinizer51	and be extremely carefull with the FPC	00:24
microlith	ah, 2007	00:24
johnx	2007 - 2008	00:24
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer51: where's teh jrBME code?	00:25
microlith	yeah, no surprise	00:25
johnx	they had a rack of sony clies next to it, too	00:25
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microlith	Though with the b-mobile card I had, my N900 was awesome the whole time	00:25
johnx	there was some beautifully geeky hardware. I'd love to see those same form factors re-imagined with modern internals and a modern screen	00:25
DocScrutinizer51	luke-jr: a first draft is on tmo	00:25
pigeon	Kegetys: ah... thanks	00:25
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer51: src repo?	00:26
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johnx	anyways. out of here for now	00:26
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer51: searching jrbme on tmo finds 2 mere references	00:28
DocScrutinizer	sigh you make me leave bed	00:29
luke-jr	…	00:29
DocScrutinizer	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=658278#post658278	00:29
luke-jr	the shell script is jrbme? -.-	00:30
ShadowJK	it's supposed to charge	00:30
DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: after you understood what it's doing, you'll be able to 'fix' the 'bug' it has	00:30
ShadowJK	but it has a few bugs :)	00:31
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luke-jr	I doubt I'll ever understand what that is doing	00:31
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ShadowJK	bq24150 datasheet helps :)	00:32
DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: then it's not for you, honestly - and no, that's not jrbme, that's a first draft as noted in the post	00:32
luke-jr	ShadowJK: but… that's not the chip in N900…	00:33
DocScrutinizer	eh?	00:33
ShadowJK	what is then?	00:33
luke-jr	bq27200	00:33
DocScrutinizer	SIGH	00:34
luke-jr	…	00:34
* DocScrutinizer heads off direction bed again		00:34
ShadowJK	bq24150 is the charger. bq27200 is the charge meter	00:34
luke-jr	o	00:34
luke-jr	so at charging finished, does it automatically go into "maintain charge" mode, or start discharging?	00:35
ShadowJK	It stops charging. Then it later restarts charge if it has dropped	00:35
luke-jr	ew :/	00:36
ShadowJK	You know "maintain charge" kills batteries, right?	00:36
luke-jr	no? :P	00:36
luke-jr	how about "run off AC" then?	00:36
DocScrutinizer51	not possible	00:36
luke-jr	wait, BME does "maintain charge"… is it killing the battery?	00:37
luke-jr	or is it lying?	00:37
ShadowJK	No it doesn't. It stops charging, and then it starts charging when charge level has dropped	00:37
DocScrutinizer51	bme does microcycling just like bq24150	00:37
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luke-jr	so BME reporting constant 100% is a lie?	00:38
ShadowJK	It always says "Battery Full" after reaching battery full, until battery is at about 50-75 percent or something :)	00:38
luke-jr	27200 is reporting 100 too O.o	00:38
DocScrutinizer51	but yes, odds are its doing so micro microcycling, it may kill battery	00:38
luke-jr	hmm	00:39
DocScrutinizer51	and when screen on, it actually never stops charging	00:39
* luke-jr ponders a smart battery charger daemon that predicts when I depart and plans ahead to hit 100% about that time…		00:39
ShadowJK	Well the top-off charge happens at a point where the battery is sp full any system load will drop the total current into battery below bq27200's end-of-charge detection threshold	00:39
luke-jr	would it in fact be better for the battery to let it drop to 5% overnight?	00:40
DocScrutinizer51	no	00:41
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luke-jr	just 50-75?	00:41
DocScrutinizer51	let it drop to 85	00:41
DocScrutinizer51	then it kicks in with recharge, automatically	00:41
ShadowJK	bme shuts down the system before 6 percent ;) (and then kids find ways to drain the remaining 6 percent and wonder why they can't charge)	00:42
luke-jr	oh, so the shell script doesn't need to keep running? O.o	00:42
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ShadowJK	That shell script, if its bugs were fixed, would exit on full battery	00:42
DocScrutinizer51	it does a one shot charge	00:43
luke-jr	what kicks in with recharge automatically, then?	00:43
mathiasg	anyone tried to play wargus on N900?	00:43
DocScrutinizer51	my version here is keeping 'charging', but not finished yet	00:43
luke-jr	o	00:44
DocScrutinizer51	the bq and the bme both do	00:44
ShadowJK	If the script was modified to not exit when status is "Done", the hardware would automatically kick in the re-recharge	00:44
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luke-jr	ShadowJK: so just kick the watchdog forever?	00:44
DocScrutinizer51	bme at 99, bq at ~85	00:44
DocScrutinizer51	luke-jr: yep	00:45
luke-jr	or I guess I should check what happens if I remove AC power…	00:45
ShadowJK	luke-jr, yep, or until status other than charging or charge done anyway	00:45
DocScrutinizer51	basically	00:45
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luke-jr	ShadowJK: like removal of external power src?	00:46
ShadowJK	yes	00:46
luke-jr	or can i seriously just write an init script and cronjob? <.<	00:46
ShadowJK	lol	00:46
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luke-jr	hmm	00:46
luke-jr	does sound like a job for a kernel driver IMO	00:47
ShadowJK	IME if there's a fault condition reported by bq24150 you need to read it in order to clear it	00:47
luke-jr	but I don't want to step on you guys' toes either	00:47
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ShadowJK	So a proper thing would watch /sys/bus/i2c/devices/something/twl4030_usb/vbus to detect presence of power on usb	00:48
ShadowJK	and bring bq24150 out of hibernation to initiate charge	00:48
DocScrutinizer51	bq24150 can do that autonomously	00:49
DocScrutinizer51	what it can't do is determine the allowable current	00:49
ShadowJK	when charger cable is unplugged, twl4030_usb/vbus goes to 0, bq24150 throws fault codes and IME does nothing for awhile unless you give it instructions :)	00:49
luke-jr	… so back to init script + cronjob	00:49
DocScrutinizer51	ShadowJK: not according to datasheet	00:50
luke-jr	will drawing too much current break the battery, or the charger? <.<	00:51
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ShadowJK	also when unplugging charge cable I do echo 0 > /sys/devices/platform/musb_hdrc/link, usb sometimes start eating large amounts of power	00:51
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luke-jr	ShadowJK: can I do that with USB plugged too? <.<	00:52
ShadowJK	luke-jr, well it could break a pc usb port, but chargers usually lower voltage which reduces amount going into n900	00:52
luke-jr	I don't actually use it for data, after all	00:52
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DocScrutinizer51	what you can do is to always charge @500, this won't usally break any usb port, doesn't need fancy enum shit nevertheless, and no musb core to detect charger	00:55
DocScrutinizer51	and delays charge-full with charger for only maybe 30..45min	00:56
ShadowJK	I hear in 2.6.34 they have a powersupply framework/api now so that stuff can properly notify eachother of this kind of stuff :)	00:56
DocScrutinizer51	given you idle and dim screen	00:57
DocScrutinizer51	hmm, need to hit 'post' on that comment to bugtracker. Wondering since 2 days if it's what I want to say	00:59
kerio	BCMM: huh? i meant that all n900s are still under warranty	01:00
ShadowJK	oh i guess it's only picky about watchdog timeout :D	01:01
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer51: go ahead, you're more informed on N900 BME than I am	01:03
luke-jr	:p	01:03
luke-jr	(or open an actual bug for N900 BME…)	01:03
kerio	luke-jr: NOTABUG/WONTFIX	01:04
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ShadowJK	DocScrutinizer, ok you're right :)	01:04
ShadowJK	keeping bq24150 tickled "just works"	01:04
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ShadowJK	but I find usb is eating extra 75mA or so after unplugging charger :)	01:05
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ShadowJK	75-150..	01:05
luke-jr	is this script's 4V200 = 500 ?	01:05
ShadowJK	leave 4V200 alone	01:07
ShadowJK	4.2 is the voltage to charge a Li-Ion battery to	01:07
ShadowJK	You could theoretically lower it to 4.1 and make the battery last 2 years instead of 1 year	01:08
ShadowJK	or something	01:08
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ShadowJK	4 vs 2 years, whatever	01:08
ShadowJK	but you'd also only use 80% of its capacity	01:08
DocScrutinizer	FUUUUUCK	01:09
luke-jr	ShadowJK: hmm…	01:09
DocScrutinizer	they changed #9314 properties, so I can't commit post now	01:09
ShadowJK	Increasing it will wear it out exponentially faster for little gain, and it's also not safe	01:09
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luke-jr	so it does auto-detect the input current?	01:09
ShadowJK	Yeah the charger seems to autodetect and go	01:10
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: more like 90%	01:10
DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: nope it doesn't	01:10
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DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: RTFDS	01:10
luke-jr	meh	01:10
ShadowJK	guess it depends what you mean by that :)	01:11
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: maybe try with a new form? I didn't get an email of any such change	01:11
ShadowJK	bug 9314	01:12
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9314 relicense N8x0 BME	01:12
DocScrutinizer	subject changed from relicense bme to relicence n9x0 bme, milestone changed, dunno what :-/	01:12
ShadowJK	Yeah I couldn't even submit a comment because someone submitted a comment while I was writing mine	01:12
luke-jr	N900 isn't bq24150A, right? no A?	01:12
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: I would think you don't have access to change subject/etc	01:13
luke-jr	I can because I reported it	01:13
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DocScrutinizer	It's A	01:29
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DocScrutinizer	bq24150a -> http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/n900/images/n900_11.jpeg	01:30
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DocScrutinizer	the 'A' is rather meaningless though, aiui	01:31
DocScrutinizer	it's a silicon revision afaik	01:31
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: what is the purpose of (reg 0) 0xc9 masked to 0x77, when 0x77 makes 0x80 of 0xc9 ignored?	01:32
luke-jr	that is, why not 0x49	01:32
luke-jr	err, memory location 4 I mean	01:33
ShadowJK	the masks are buggy	01:33
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luke-jr	O.o?	01:33
ShadowJK	i2cset does read-mask-modify-write	01:33
DocScrutinizer	not exactly buggy, but suboptimal	01:33
ShadowJK	and there are registers that have different function when read from and when written to	01:34
DocScrutinizer	yep	01:34
ShadowJK	Like the reset register, always reads as 1, iirc :)	01:34
luke-jr	I still don't get it, other than "buggy"	01:34
DocScrutinizer	CE isn't correctly taken care of in the draft, as is reset	01:34
luke-jr	masking 0x41 with 0x77 is the same as masking 0xc9 with 0x77	01:34
* ShadowJK doesn't use any masks at all		01:35
DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: the values aren't generic, they are derived from what I read out from chip when bme is running	01:35
DocScrutinizer	then I created the masks to mask out bits that have different meaning when read and write	01:36
DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: as mentioned, I have a better yet unfinished version here, if you want to wait for it then you don't need to bother with the draft at all	01:37
ShadowJK	hey guess what happened when I tried open that image on n900 ;p	01:37
luke-jr	o	01:38
DocScrutinizer	swap-lock?	01:38
ShadowJK	:)	01:38
luke-jr	btw, I know the OTG pin isn't connected on the USB chip, but is the bq chip connected?	01:38
DocScrutinizer	err, it's connected to several parts of system, yes	01:39
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DocScrutinizer	now you managed to wake me :-S	01:40
* DocScrutinizer heading out for coffee		01:40
ShadowJK	If you have connected a charger, and do cat /sys/devices/platform/musb_hdrc/charger; you get a '1' as result, and the otg pin input on bq24150 goes high	01:40
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luke-jr	hrm	01:42
luke-jr	32 seconds to kick the charger :/	01:42
luke-jr	cron doesn't have that granularity	01:43
luke-jr	and waking the CPU up every 32 seconds will harm battery life significantly I think	01:43
ShadowJK	I think bme already wakes up every 32x	01:43
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luke-jr	so for all practical purposes, it needs to be turned off/on	01:43
luke-jr	ShadowJK: well then, we can significantly improve battery life ;P	01:43
DocScrutinizer	make that 15s	01:44
DocScrutinizer	timer is +-50% or something	01:44
luke-jr	at least in theory…	01:44
ShadowJK	but yeah, a nicer way would be inotify on /sys/bus/i2c/devices/1-0048/twl4030_usb/vbus	01:44
luke-jr	not a concern of mine I guess since to be useful I want N900 constantly tracking GPS and IM :/	01:44
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* luke-jr ponders if it would help to turn GPS off when accelerometers don't detect motion		01:45
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: what's exactly what we should do, for jrbme	01:45
ShadowJK	enabled /CE and HZ_MODE on bq24150 when vbus goes away, when vbus appears: disable HZ_MODE, program charge params, unset /CE	01:46
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luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: are you planning a release soon?	01:46
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: exactly :-)	01:46
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luke-jr	(btw, I presume you're already sure inotify works on sysfs?)	01:47
ShadowJK	nfi :)	01:47
DocScrutinizer	I did a bit of editing yesterday, as I feel we need something soonish. But I'm really lazy/sick/depressed atm, so no hard schedule	01:47
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* ShadowJK has regular work plus fibre splicing :-(		01:47
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SpeedEvil	luke-jr: http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Software_Power_management - see the script	01:48
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SpeedEvil	for a moderately friendly power watcher.	01:48
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: btw, I think your bug comment confirmed N8x0 BME would be enough for your purposes, since it presumably uses the same interfaces other than the battery hw?	01:48
DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: I'm not even thinking about sysfs nodes yet	01:48
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DocScrutinizer	except for polling them	01:49
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SpeedEvil	I have never seen the system go idle more than about 3.5 seconds on average.	01:49
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DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: alas that's not correct	01:49
luke-jr	what did I miss?	01:49
DocScrutinizer	Stskeeps told me the interfaces changed	01:49
luke-jr	o	01:49
luke-jr	:/	01:49
DocScrutinizer	yep	01:49
DocScrutinizer	for (jr)bme purposes a polling freq of one per 30s seems sufficient and bearable	01:51
DocScrutinizer	though it will delay charger plugin detection by max 30s	01:51
DocScrutinizer	bearable in my book	01:51
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DocScrutinizer	the main problem is: can we detect charger at all, without bme?	01:52
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DocScrutinizer	the fastcharger detect is done in musb-core, but I'm not sure it will work without bme	01:52
SpeedEvil	you mean charger or vus	01:53
SpeedEvil	b	01:53
SpeedEvil	ah	01:53
DocScrutinizer	D+- short	01:53
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: how can I check from userspace?	01:53
DocScrutinizer	err read out sysnodes? or actively triggering a check?	01:54
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luke-jr	"fastcharger detect"	01:54
luke-jr	although I don't know if I have a fastcharger…	01:54
SpeedEvil	Do you have the stock nokia one?	01:54
SpeedEvil	It's fast	01:54
luke-jr	SpeedEvil: only the European one and the adapter	01:54
SpeedEvil	that's fine	01:54
luke-jr	if the adapter is a fastcharger, then eys	01:55
luke-jr	yes*	01:55
DocScrutinizer	seems it should get triggered by a read to charger sysnode of musb-core	01:55
SpeedEvil	err	01:55
SpeedEvil	what adaptor	01:55
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luke-jr	SpeedEvil: adapter for N810 power thing	01:55
SpeedEvil	I have a european plug nokia charger, which has grown a UK mains plug.	01:55
luke-jr	SpeedEvil: I have no European outlets	01:55
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SpeedEvil	Me neither.	01:55
asj	me three	01:56
SpeedEvil	That's why I put two large choc-connectors on the pins.	01:56
SpeedEvil	and a cable to a plug on the other end	01:56
DocScrutinizer	hehehe	01:56
SpeedEvil	And wrapped it in wood and duct tape so it was secure and safe.	01:56
luke-jr	O.o	01:56
DocScrutinizer	mad scottsh	01:56
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SpeedEvil	It's OK - wood and duct tape qualifies as double layer insulation, so it's quite legal.	01:57
DocScrutinizer	lol	01:57
* luke-jr is glad he can stick his fingers in an outlet here and live		01:57
SpeedEvil	I have mislaid my UK charger.	01:57
kerio	circuit breakers are mandatory here	01:57
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SpeedEvil	I was using it while cutting the hedge.	01:57
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SpeedEvil	kerio: It has a 1A fuse in the plug	01:58
luke-jr	kerio: here too I think	01:58
luke-jr	well, unless you mean fuses don't count	01:58
SpeedEvil	It may be on top of the garage on reflection.	01:58
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kerio	not a fuse, a... how do you call them...	01:58
luke-jr	my house has fuses :p	01:58
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kerio	the thing everything passes through that interrupts the circuit if there's a short circuit	01:58
SpeedEvil	kerio: Circuit breaker is probably the corect rterm.	01:58
DocScrutinizer	DI	01:58
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SpeedEvil	kerio: You're in the US?	01:59
SpeedEvil	I seem tro recall.	01:59
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DocScrutinizer	Delta-I differential current circuit breaker. Only useful if <30mA	01:59
kerio	SpeedEvil: italy	01:59
DocScrutinizer	yeah Italy and Spain need those, due to abysmal electric craftsmanship	02:00
kerio	._.	02:00
kerio	it's a measure of safety ffs	02:00
kerio	also probably more than half of our buildings have no ground	02:01
kerio	so yeah	02:01
DocScrutinizer	kerio: don't worry, they are mandatory here in D as well now	02:01
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DocScrutinizer	I fsckng wonder how I could let my electrician get away with that shit - have a 20mA plug DI here for my workbench, but odds are the computers will go down as well when I DIY some funny things, as the main DI triggers faster than the plug	02:03
kerio	hehe	02:03
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kerio	some funny things?	02:03
kerio	somehow i think it's for the best that the power goes down this quickly	02:04
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ShadowJK	DocScrutinizer, rcd?	02:04
DocScrutinizer	I need my electric shock every once in a while :-P But I don't like the shock when all the electrics go down on that	02:05
kerio	get a UPS	02:05
DocScrutinizer	yep	02:05
DocScrutinizer	already planned	02:05
* ShadowJK pretends to be an electrician at work occasionally :D		02:05
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: rcd??	02:05
ShadowJK	return current difference thingy?	02:06
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ShadowJK	like that thing that checks how much goes uut on phase and how much comes back on n and trips if the diff is too big?	02:06
DocScrutinizer	aah yep, seems there's no standard name in English I'm aware of - in germany thay are called FI-switch	02:06
kerio	heh, the italian term translates literally to "lifesaver"	02:07
* DocScrutinizer heads of to fuse box, to check the exact current of the main FI		02:07
ShadowJK	i think they're called "ground current breaker" here..	02:08
DocScrutinizer	0.03A	02:08
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DocScrutinizer	main. So odds are my plug adapter type 0.02A I use for workbench is not 'protecting' the main switch from trigering as well	02:09
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DocScrutinizer	http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/FI-Schalter RCD is european standard name :-D	02:11
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ShadowJK	in the absence of qualified people I was troubleshooting an electrical problem at work and opened this equipment box	02:20
ShadowJK	I found lots of 380V wiring connected by twisting wires around eachother and wrapping in electrical tape :)	02:21
* ShadowJK put it back very carefully and decided not to touch that shit		02:21
DocScrutinizer	hehe	02:21
DocScrutinizer	sounds like US American method	02:22
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kerio	it's safe :\|	02:22
kerio	electrical tape insulates	02:22
ShadowJK	the length of the wiring was about 4 times longer than what was required, so it looked like someone had basically collected the wires in his hand and started jamming it into the box until it fit, and then screwed the lid on	02:23
kerio	omg	02:23
ShadowJK	Yes, well, tape starts looking brittle and fragile after 20 years, and the adhesive doesn't hold so good either :)	02:23
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ShadowJK	oh well, it's only like 40kW going through that spaghettinest :D	02:24
asj	that's what breakers are for ;)	02:25
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ShadowJK	:)	02:25
asj	(and you should be scared, I'm an electrical engineer)	02:25
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Jef91	So for some reason my text messgaes have been randomly not showing up/randomly being removed last couple of days on my n900	02:25
DocScrutinizer	in New Orleans on a Media Fair, I faced those noobs over there considered our booth requirement "220V" as 3 phase 130V :-P	02:25
Jef91	any suggestions?	02:25
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DocScrutinizer	delete all messages	02:27
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Jef91	how docscrutinizer?	02:27
heoa	I forgot the root password to n810, is there some easy way to get it to default? How can I boot it to single mode?	02:28
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Jef91	nvm found it	02:28
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ShadowJK	heoa, install rootsh, type sudo gainroot, passwd root ?	02:29
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DocScrutinizer	(new orleans) then when I asked them for 3 1:1 transformers, to build a triangle to star converter, they came along with those nasty things like a hollow cone with a thread inside - you just screw it onto the copper ends of up to 4 wires to connect them. Somewhat similar to the twist-and-isolate method	02:30
heoa	ShadowJK: Thank you.	02:31
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SpeedEvil	Wirenuts seem like a horribly bad idea.	02:33
heoa	Is there any phone by Nokia that is btw a communicator and N900? Still satisfied with 9300 but would like to get it upgraded with n810-style console	02:33
SpeedEvil	Sure - in principle it is a nice gas-tight joint.	02:33
SpeedEvil	If done just right.	02:33
heoa	or preferrably n900 style debian things	02:33
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: wirenut - exactly :-D	02:34
ShadowJK	heoa, n900 is the only linux phone from nokia	02:35
luke-jr	and it's not even Linux or a phone!	02:36
luke-jr	:P	02:36
ShadowJK	I suspect the Communicator is dead and buried by nokia	02:36
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DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: how is it not linux?	02:38
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ShadowJK	it's not mainline linux ;p	02:39
DocScrutinizer	tzz	02:39
ShadowJK	and doesn't work with mainline linux	02:39
DocScrutinizer	uhuh	02:39
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DocScrutinizer	I think that description more applies to buntkuh than to maemo though	02:39
nox-	haha	02:40
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LiraNuna	did you guys check out http://bb.osmocom.org/trac/	03:16
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DocScrutinizer	not exactly the trac. Why?	03:31
DocScrutinizer	did Harald something exciting new?	03:32
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luke-jr	ugh, SMS spam now?	03:47
SpeedEvil	My SMS spam is limited to tmo.	03:48
SpeedEvil	tmobile that is.	03:48
tybollt	:P	03:51
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DocScrutinizer51	SpeedEvil: regarding the given fact there's not just the one emergency number, it's probably really complex how dialer-ui and bme and cellmo/rapuyama work together to enable 911 calls during overtemp or lowbat conditions	03:59
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SpeedEvil	yes.	04:04
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Jef91	is there an app that will auto remove text messages that are X days old?	04:04
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technomike	hey guys	04:22
SpeedEvil	hi	04:24
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johnx	hallo	04:42
b-man\|laptop	hay johnx :)	04:44
johnx	hey b-man\|laptop :D	04:44
johnx	hacking on anything fun lately?	04:44
b-man\|laptop	experimenting with debian on my N900 :)	04:45
johnx	fun times	04:45
GAN900	Anybody got any fun speculation for me to stick on the mwkn summary of the N9 photos?	04:45
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b-man\|laptop	http://b-man.xceleo.org/repo/nitdebian ;)	04:45
johnx	GAN900, I heard it has a fuel cell battery and it can also act as a beer keg, which can be dispensed by d-bus signal	04:46
b-man\|laptop	the metapackage system is set up alot like deblet/ubuntu-n8x0, but i'm aiming to implement stuff from MeeGo :)	04:47
johnx	I think this time I might actually develop for meego	04:47
johnx	I might actually be getting burned out from the distro wars	04:47
b-man\|laptop	hehe	04:47
DocScrutinizer51	GAN900: has no stylus so probably a c-ts	04:47
GAN900	johnx, sweet!	04:48
DocScrutinizer51	backlid /battery cover is fixed by screws	04:48
johnx	Remember dbus-scripts? I think I'm actually going to try and put together a general policy layer on top of it	04:48
GAN900	DocScrutinizer51, this we know from the Summit.	04:48
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GAN900	DocScrutinizer51, lol.	04:48
GAN900	DocScrutinizer51, I imagine that's a proto issue. ;)	04:49
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DocScrutinizer51	usb receptacle seems same crappy smt type	04:49
GAN900	Hopefully that's also a proto thing. . . .	04:49
johnx	actually, that reminds me: Has anyone else lost their kickstand magnet?	04:50
b-man\|laptop	MohammadAG lost his a couple of times	04:51
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DocScrutinizer51	GAN900: maybe there's no stereo speakers and just a combined earpiece/speaker transduced	04:51
johnx	luckily for me the glue came off but the kickstand magnet stuck to the case magnet, so I still have it	04:51
SpeedEvil	Are there any commercially available micro-USB connectors with through-hole anchors?	04:51
GAN900	johnx, yes.	04:52
GAN900	Although it's still magnetically attached	04:52
GAN900	Just need some super glue.	04:52
johnx	Yeah, was thinking of busting out the super glue	04:52
johnx	that will be incredibly fiddly to fix though	04:52
GAN900	I may just let Nokia fix it, though	04:52
* b-man\|laptop hates handling super glue		04:53
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johnx	yeah, the trick is less handling -> more applying	04:54
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b-man\|laptop	johnx: btw, how is that pandora? - I've began to reconsider ordering one lol :)	04:56
* johnx sighs		04:56
SpeedEvil	The other issue is that the socket is fundamentally not strong.	04:56
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johnx	uhm, I have to send it back to the UK to get the wifi repaired	04:56
b-man\|laptop	it'd be awesome to run meego on one of those :)	04:56
johnx	that's the problem of being an early adopter	04:56
b-man\|laptop	eww :(	04:56
johnx	Yeah, I am looking forward to getting meego running on it	04:56
SpeedEvil	It can't take significantly more force than the solder joints can support	04:56
johnx	though, now I'm thinking that a Sharp PC-Z1 really isn't that much more expensive	04:57
* johnx has learned his lesson about pre-ordering things.		05:00
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johnx	Though, really, I am glad I supported them. I just hope the experience goes to getting more 'community' hardware development projects launched a bit more smoothly	05:00
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EdLin	does the N900 have Hebrew font support?	05:25
DocScrutinizer	I honestly doubt in success of 'community' hw development	05:29
johnx	EdLin, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=37340&highlight=n900+hebrew	05:31
johnx	have you seen that?	05:31
luke-jr	johnx: what community-developed hardware?	05:31
johnx	luke-jr, well, I should say, community influenced hardware, created by a small business	05:32
johnx	DocScrutinizer, I think it's a matter of having more of the parts being "off the shelf"	05:32
DocScrutinizer	community hw development is like community composing a symphony	05:32
johnx	I think things like the beagleboard are a big part of that	05:32
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luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: the same applies equally to sw	05:33
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DocScrutinizer	not at all, as you can evolve sw	05:33
luke-jr	true	05:34
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luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: did you comment on my concept btw?	05:34
DocScrutinizer	it's like community driven development of mars rover sw, without any prior tests	05:34
DocScrutinizer	concept?	05:35
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luke-jr	http://www.flickr.com/photos/52549449@N05/4915160604/	05:35
DocScrutinizer	(sw) what are the chances this sw will be right on first shot, and doesn't need a single fix?	05:36
luke-jr	nevermind the sketch bit… nobody gets it, and it's probably not ideal	05:36
EdLin	johnsu01: http://wiki.maemo.org/Hebrew_N900 - it has pretty good support, apparently.	05:36
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infobot	-sjansen	05:36
pigeon	ahha! just got my game gripper	05:40
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DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: sounds like a nice Marketing Product Requirements Spec. Some bits are arguable, some gimmick things I'd add, but nevertheless...	05:45
SpeedEvil	pigeon: for n900?	05:45
pigeon	SpeedEvil: yeah	05:45
SpeedEvil	It's not vapour? Wow.	05:45
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pigeon	heh	05:46
DocScrutinizer	infobot: what's up?	05:46
infobot	Up is the direction away from the central point of gravity.	05:46
DocScrutinizer	infobot: what's sjansen?	05:46
infobot	sjansen is probably one hoopey frood who really knows where his towel is	05:46
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DocScrutinizer	weird	05:47
SpeedEvil	luke-jr: Is that supposed to show a reversible screen that folds down backwards on the keyboard for protection?	05:48
luke-jr	SpeedEvil: nope :P	05:48
luke-jr	but closer than most people got I think	05:48
luke-jr	folds down forwards, after you pull it up	05:49
SpeedEvil	ah	05:49
SpeedEvil	I'm unconvinced you can't make that better than fucking unreliable.	05:50
luke-jr	but as johnx pointed out, there is too little gain for the wasted space and wear	05:50
luke-jr	so if it ever becomes real, it would probably have a Zaurus clamshell shell	05:50
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luke-jr	-like	05:50
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johnx	hopefully it will also have a space bar :)	05:51
SpeedEvil	Also- no fucking way is that under $800 unless you get >>>1K	05:51
luke-jr	johnx: that one is ponderful	05:51
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luke-jr	johnx: not sure how to fit it in w/ the e-paper design	05:52
luke-jr	SpeedEvil: get what?	05:52
SpeedEvil	Software controlled lens cover is also complete fail.	05:52
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SpeedEvil	Many more than 1K units	05:52
luke-jr	I would hope to. if there's a market. :\|	05:52
SpeedEvil	Sure.	05:53
luke-jr	why no sw controlled lens cover?	05:53
SpeedEvil	Flaky.	05:53
johnx	a motorized lens cover?	05:53
johnx	srsly?	05:53
luke-jr	I've never had a problem?	05:53
SpeedEvil	Motorised lens covers of necessity have tiny motors.	05:53
SpeedEvil	Tiny motors have fuck-all torque, and get jammed by stuff.	05:53
johnx	like a tiny bit of sand	05:54
lpotter_	or strawberry jam	05:54
luke-jr	O.o	05:54
asj	SpeedEvil: you just a fly wheel and some slack in the gears... ;)	05:54
SpeedEvil	All the devices I have had with sw lens covers have failed in some way	05:54
asj	(then it could duble as the vibrator)	05:54
SpeedEvil	Also - 12MP/5* optical zoom isn't happening.	05:55
johnx	which is why one of my favorite digicam designs was the coolpix 2100: http://www.google.com/images?q=coolpix%202500	05:55
luke-jr	SpeedEvil: why not?	05:55
SpeedEvil	It requires a physically large package.	05:55
luke-jr	IIRC those are like $100 on TigerDirect with a smaller size	05:55
DocScrutinizer	fsck lens cover. make that a sapphire glass which is easily changed when ever scratched	05:55
SpeedEvil	luke-jr: what are	05:55
luke-jr	SpeedEvil: 12MP+5*zoomdigital cameras	05:56
SpeedEvil	Right.	05:56
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SpeedEvil	The camera module in the n900 is approximately 10mm4mm10mm	05:56
SpeedEvil	including lens.	05:56
luke-jr	it might take up half the device's thickness, but it should be doable	05:56
SpeedEvil	perhaps 6mm thick	05:56
johnx	luke-jr, anyways. prove me wrong by getting it built	05:57
luke-jr	johnx: no resources :P	05:57
SpeedEvil	The camera assembly in a 'proper' camera is more like 202040 or more.	05:57
luke-jr	SpeedEvil: for size, think N810 with double the thickness	05:57
DocScrutinizer	ouch, a real brick then	05:58
SpeedEvil	And pop-out lenses in devices are even more of a failure than sliding lens covers.	05:58
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: same size as C760	05:58
SpeedEvil	I would be astonished if you could get the above out the door - the first thousand units - for a couple of million.	05:58
luke-jr	SpeedEvil: doesn't optical zoom practically require a pop-out lens?	05:58
SpeedEvil	yes.	05:59
SpeedEvil	Well - no	05:59
DocScrutinizer	no idea bout C760 - not even the brand. But I will head over next room and place 2 N810 piggyback	05:59
SpeedEvil	It requires a variable length optical path	05:59
SpeedEvil	this is not the same	05:59
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luke-jr	SpeedEvil: let's rephrase: doesn't 5* zoom require more thickness than 2*N810?	06:00
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SpeedEvil	http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Konica-Minolta-DiMAGE-X1-6-5-Megapixel-Digital-Camera-/130423012379?pt=UK_CamerasPhoto_DigitalCameras_DigitalCameras_JN	06:00
DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: btw we been there, done that, some 12..18 months ago. With beyond-gta02	06:00
DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: bottom line: no resources :-P	06:00
luke-jr	:p	06:00
SpeedEvil	The optical module in this is about 102040mm or so, folded.	06:00
SpeedEvil	The optical path is entirely inside the camera	06:01
EdLin	how well do the MMS options work on the N900? Someone loves to send me MMS messages I text with.	06:01
luke-jr	EdLin: they don't.	06:01
EdLin	luke-jr: that bad, huh?	06:02
DocScrutinizer	use mirror and 'inline optics'	06:02
microlith	you can install fMMS	06:02
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: wouldn't that take up even more space?	06:02
EdLin	microlith: fMMS will work well?	06:02
microlith	dunno, don't use MMS messages at all	06:02
DocScrutinizer	even switch/rotate mirror for can shot direction head front/back/whatever	06:02
luke-jr	fMMS didn't work at all when I tried it	06:02
luke-jr	(a few days ago)	06:03
SpeedEvil	luke-jr: but there can be no external moving parts, which means that the moving parts can be less robust.	06:03
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luke-jr	SpeedEvil: I can't imagine that is workable, but whatever	06:05
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SpeedEvil	See the above camera	06:05
luke-jr	in the space, I mean	06:05
SpeedEvil	yes - that's a problem.	06:05
SpeedEvil	optical zoom takes a huge volume in the case.	06:05
johnx	get me a coolpix 2500 style design :)	06:05
DocScrutinizer	tbh when I just grabbed that stack of 2 N810, waved it in my hand, and imagined to have that brick in a belt pouch... NAH	06:06
johnx	2x N810s would be thicker than a Cxx00 Zaurus and that's a bit of a stretch as it is	06:06
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: who wears belts? device goes in my pocket	06:06
DocScrutinizer	LOL	06:06
johnx	you would need to ship that device with custom cargo pants :P	06:07
DocScrutinizer	is that a washing machine in your pocket or are you just excited to meet me	06:07
luke-jr	johnx: nah	06:07
luke-jr	C760 fit just fine for me	06:07
luke-jr	could probably be thicker tbh	06:07
johnx	well, the Cxx00 is thicker still, and 2x N810s would be even worse	06:07
luke-jr	johnx: C760 and 2*N810 are equivalent	06:08
DocScrutinizer	will rot in shelf	06:08
* johnx gets an N810 out to test		06:08
luke-jr	N810 = 1.2cm	06:09
luke-jr	C760 = 2.4cm	06:09
luke-jr	johnx: don't forget the extra-thick battery/cover	06:09
DocScrutinizer	johnx: you need 2 of those, you'll be surprised how much more they weigh and how much larger they are in a stack than what you thought when just extrapolating from one	06:09
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: just extrapolating from one, I'd have thought N810*2 was thicker than C760	06:10
luke-jr	visibly, I mean	06:11
luke-jr	also, 2x depth != 2x weight	06:11
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luke-jr	both weigh about the same IMO	06:11
luke-jr	maybe C760 is slightly heavier	06:11
johnx	so while you're making this monstrosity, could you make me a modernized SL5500 phone?	06:13
luke-jr	phones are lame	06:14
microlith	johnx: N900 is close ;)	06:14
microlith	bleh, wifi-only devices are lame	06:14
luke-jr	microlith: nowhere near	06:14
luke-jr	johnx: just use this monstrosity with a Bluetooth headset ;)	06:15
DocScrutinizer	no way	06:15
johnx	microlith, yup. It's very close. But, I was one of those weirdos who actually liked having the hardware keyboard be portrait	06:15
microlith	johnx: weirdo :p	06:15
microlith	heh	06:15
johnx	the one handed usage beat the hell out of the N900	06:16
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DocScrutinizer	I'm neither going to wear a BT headset all day and night like a freaking nerd, nor am I inclined to miss calls due to time I need to pair and 'mount' that headset	06:16
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: get a Bluetooth headset that sits invisibly in your ear then	06:16
luke-jr	I, for one, am a proud nerd!	06:16
DocScrutinizer	blablabla	06:16
luke-jr	SpeedEvil: you think the $800 mark is too low even considering the lack of software costs?	06:17
SpeedEvil	luke-jr: yes	06:17
johnx	luke-jr, when you say that, this is what I hear: Give up your stereo hearing so that you can answer calls more quickly, which consists of about 1 - 3% of any given day for me	06:17
DocScrutinizer	I'd suggest a decent netbook type device for you, with correctly built GPRS functionality that allows you to wear BT headset and do phonecalls	06:18
DocScrutinizer	(too low) you bet	06:18
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: netbooks are too big	06:18
johnx	That's like optimizing an fs driver for the case where the media has I/O errors at the cost of the normal write speed	06:18
microlith	johnx: sounds like NAND :)	06:19
johnx	microlith, heh	06:19
johnx	fair point :)	06:19
johnx	luke-jr, PC-Z1	06:19
microlith	admittedly it's hidden behind hardware ECC and eMMC abstraction these days >_>	06:19
luke-jr	johnx: exactly, too big	06:19
johnx	so what are the dimensions on your behemoth?	06:20
luke-jr	2*N810 :p	06:20
johnx	with a 5" screen?	06:20
johnx	or a 4"?	06:20
luke-jr	same size otherwise	06:20
DocScrutinizer	fail	06:20
DocScrutinizer	too small footprint for the thickness, and for a decent kbd	06:21
luke-jr	maybe make the screen itself slightly larger	06:21
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: you say this only because you never used a C760	06:21
johnx	admittedly the C760 was pretty chubby :P	06:22
luke-jr	C760 was perfect for its time	06:22
DocScrutinizer	wtf is c760	06:22
DocScrutinizer	?	06:22
SpeedEvil	luke-jr: To clarify point about price - I would be surprised if you could make 1000 for under 600K - parts and setup costs.	06:22
SpeedEvil	luke-jr: which makes selling for 800k really, really dodgy	06:22
DocScrutinizer	not even for 2 mio	06:22
SpeedEvil	that was neglecting design costs	06:23
johnx	DocScrutinizer, Zaurus C760	06:23
DocScrutinizer	yep	06:23
SpeedEvil	The mechanical engineering of that slide alone looks nasty	06:23
luke-jr	SpeedEvil: throw the slide away and just think C760 design	06:24
luke-jr	it's good enough	06:24
DocScrutinizer	wait, wasn't that a portrait device?	06:25
johnx	so, do you really think you have more hardware design experience than the pandora guys?	06:25
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: no.	06:25
johnx	DocScrutinizer, nah. you're thinking 5500	06:25
SpeedEvil	http://www.superwarehouse.com/Lexmark_C760/17S0000/p/445168	06:25
luke-jr	johnx: I have none. ☺	06:25
SpeedEvil	Does not look pocket friendly.	06:25
microlith	SpeedEvil: but you get printouts on the go!	06:25
luke-jr	http://www.killingjoke.net/gra/zaurus_c760.jpg	06:25
johnx	http://www.google.com/images?q=zaurus%20c760	06:26
DocScrutinizer	uhuh, a laser printer :-P	06:26
SpeedEvil	That hinge looks either hellafragile, or hella expensive	06:26
luke-jr	SpeedEvil: it was $800 :P	06:26
microlith	man, the C860 had me drooling but it was so pricy at the time	06:26
luke-jr	microlith: C860 is the same as C760 except in colour and software :p	06:26
DocScrutinizer	meh, cya dudes	06:26
microlith	yeah but the C760 wasn't on sale in 2003	06:26
luke-jr	I flashed the C860 bootloader just for the heck of it	06:26
johnx	later DocScrutinizer	06:26
luke-jr	:p	06:26
SpeedEvil	luke-jr: If you are willing tro make an initial order of 50K or so, then the prices on lots of stuff goes way down.	06:27
luke-jr	SpeedEvil: cool.	06:27
luke-jr	but probably not so far down as to make it affordable to 50k people	06:27
SpeedEvil	That's the other problem, yes.	06:27
luke-jr	now if the price could be pushed down to say $300 or so, I could see selling a lot…	06:28
luke-jr	but not at $800 ea	06:28
luke-jr	heh, maybe in Japan…	06:28
SpeedEvil	Before the n900 there was - probably - an exploitable gap in the medium-end 'smartphone/microlaptop' market.	06:28
johnx	lose the camera, lose the rediculous slider, lose some case quality, and now you've got a pandora ...	06:28
SpeedEvil	The n900 killed that market.	06:29
SpeedEvil	Largely.	06:29
luke-jr	johnx: except a Pandora is crap? :P	06:29
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luke-jr	fixed LOW amount of RAM	06:29
SpeedEvil	Pandora is crap for a reason.	06:29
luke-jr	IIRC basically no internal storage	06:29
luke-jr	slow CPU	06:29
luke-jr	etc	06:29
johnx	it's not crap given it's history	06:29
SpeedEvil	Take most of your specs.	06:29
johnx	I'm totally amazed they pulled it off, still	06:30
DocScrutinizer	at least pandora is delivering	06:30
SpeedEvil	That's a first cut at design specs. You then go and look at what SoCs are available.	06:30
SpeedEvil	For example - seperate CPU and GPU is complete madness.	06:30
luke-jr	johnx: by the time it shipped, it was obsolete	06:30
microlith	luke-jr: but nonetheless, it shipped	06:30
johnx	luke-jr, given that yours will never ship, can I call it obsolete now?	06:30
microlith	as opposed to dying on the line	06:31
luke-jr	johnx: ☺	06:31
DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: you're aware you can't take advance payment from customers and manufs insist in paying the whole lot on manuf time or even before?	06:31
luke-jr	lol	06:31
luke-jr	tell that to Pandora	06:31
luke-jr	XD	06:31
johnx	Actually, you might have been able to do something like that, except the pandora guys kinda spoiled it for you :P	06:31
DocScrutinizer	don't need to - they've been there and we've been	06:32
luke-jr	johnx: yeah	06:32
luke-jr	after Pandora, nobody's going to pre-pay for something	06:32
SpeedEvil	Unless there is a massive name involved.	06:32
SpeedEvil	Forex - n900.	06:33
johnx	also, keep in mind that the pandora guys already had a huge amount of positive reputation with the people they were asking for money from	06:33
SpeedEvil	Pandora was gpx2?	06:33
SpeedEvil	people	06:33
DocScrutinizer	and minimum reasonable prod lot size is 10k	06:33
johnx	er, it was from the people who re-sold the gp2x	06:33
SpeedEvil	ah	06:33
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luke-jr	anyhow, I'd be glad to "sell" my ideas to a big company in exchange only for the product :P	06:34
DocScrutinizer	lol	06:34
SpeedEvil	There is nothing innovative there to sell IMO.	06:34
luke-jr	<.<	06:34
DocScrutinizer	exactly	06:34
SpeedEvil	It's a shopping list of obviously nice features.	06:34
SpeedEvil	That's not a sensible design unless it's fleshed out.	06:35
SpeedEvil	And you can't do that easily from where you are.	06:35
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DocScrutinizer	and any huge manuf will tell ya gtfo we got our own shopping lists	06:35
SpeedEvil	For example - you can't get docs to choose between mobile chipsets.	06:35
luke-jr	obviously no existing mobile chipsets can fit the bill	06:36
luke-jr	unless Qualcomm opens that r300-based GPU	06:36
johnx	SpeedEvil, it's ok. his choice is pretty much the OMAP34xx anyways :)	06:36
SpeedEvil	johnx: Sure.	06:36
luke-jr	johnx: OMAP34xx couldn't come close	06:36
luke-jr	OMAP4 maybe, but not unless PowerVR gets opened	06:36
johnx	or 35xx or whatever one is made to be sold in "small" quanitities	06:36
SpeedEvil	john: but - if the above came out in 2 years time - it's gonna look vrery slow	06:36
johnx	SpeedEvil, it looks slow today :) but I don't think he has much choice	06:37
DocScrutinizer	yawn and l8r	06:37
SpeedEvil	wave	06:37
luke-jr	johnx: dual core 1 GHz is plenty for most people	06:37
johnx	'night DocScrutinizer :)	06:37
luke-jr	and some website said it's faster than Atoms :p	06:37
johnx	luke-jr, yeah, but you cant buy that chipset in small enough quantity	06:37
SpeedEvil	Saying 'dual core 1ghz' doesn't make one magically appear	06:37
luke-jr	SpeedEvil: there's a couple already	06:38
luke-jr	Qualcomm and TI at least have one	06:38
SpeedEvil	Orderable in quantities of 10K?	06:38
luke-jr	nfc	06:38
luke-jr	irrelevant to whatever big company might make it	06:38
SpeedEvil	Sure.	06:39
SpeedEvil	Your best bet is probably to wander round china.	06:39
luke-jr	well then I'll just use a Loongson MIPS SoC	06:39
luke-jr	<.<	06:39
microlith	mmm, performance 10 years behind the times!	06:39
luke-jr	:p	06:40
johnx	well it maybe be slow, but at least it has poor power management!	06:40
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johnx	errr...wait	06:40
luke-jr	SpeedEvil: you've got plenty of barriers for me to ever make it… but I never intended to make it	06:40
luke-jr	I just want some big company to make it	06:41
luke-jr	why won't they?	06:41
microlith	because they have to report quarterly profits	06:41
SpeedEvil	Because your shopping list of features is uninteresting.	06:41
johnx	luke-jr, step in line and prepare to pre-order the Nokia N9, citizen-consumer	06:41
SpeedEvil	Much like I want a 4:3 monitor, and a new 4:3 laptop	06:41
luke-jr	johnx: why? looks useless	06:41
johnx	luke-jr, because it will actually come to market	06:42
SpeedEvil	Uninteresting to the corporate world that is.	06:42
luke-jr	SpeedEvil: corporate world doesn't use over half the list of replaced devices?	06:42
luke-jr	or you mean just from the standpoint that they can make more profit from cheaper devices?	06:43
SpeedEvil	yes	06:43
luke-jr	and they're too buried in money to think they might want to do something for their own personal use?	06:43
SpeedEvil	Real men don't use computers.	06:44
luke-jr	yet another bug in capitalism	06:44
SpeedEvil	Real men have people to do that for them.	06:44
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N900foreva	any news on meego on n900?	06:44
DocScrutinizer	they got secretaries to do that kinda tedious boring shit for them	06:44
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: :-D	06:44
SpeedEvil	Extreme platforms come from basically either startups that can blow shitloads of VC money and then typically fold.	06:45
SpeedEvil	Or from large makers that can offer a 'premium' line alongside their regular line at 5-10* the price	06:45
johnx	or from large companies doing experiments that are designed to attract a certain kind of user, with the hope of possibly being made profitable later	06:46
SpeedEvil	And can plow back some of the money from the lower lines into subsidising dev of the premium -as the technolog from it will slowly filter down into the main lines over the years	06:46
johnx	(aka 770 / N8x0)	06:46
SpeedEvil	yes	06:47
luke-jr	johnx: but that's the low end of "extreme platforms" :P	06:47
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johnx	and then there are total geeks who sneak into high positions in companies and create Linux-based pocket dictionaries :>	06:47
johnx	aka zaurus	06:48
luke-jr	kinda explains why Sharp killed it	06:48
luke-jr	☹	06:48
N900foreva	will there be PR 1.3 ?	06:48
luke-jr	N900foreva: if you go to sleep, you might dream it	06:49
SpeedEvil	Okaaaaaay.	06:49
johnx	N900foreva, there was going to be, but they said if one more person asked about it, they'd cancel it. So you just spoiled it for everyone	06:49
N900foreva	ok...so n900 is oficially abandonware then	06:49
SpeedEvil	http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:category.details?current-catalog-id=12F0696583E04D86B9B79B0FEC01C087&current-category-id=3B10ECA8EB78454180D484668504D02E	06:49
johnx	N900foreva, people are working on Meego	06:49
johnx	Maemo 5 is abandonware	06:50
SpeedEvil	Someone inhaling a little deeply there I think.	06:50
N900foreva	but there will be no meego for n900	06:50
microlith	not a Nokia Official release	06:51
luke-jr	N900foreva: yes there will	06:51
johnx	SpeedEvil, terrifyingly, I could actually see that being used for pitching products	06:51
microlith	but unofficially, yes	06:51
johnx	N900foreva, why won't there be?	06:51
DocScrutinizer	N900foreva: please stop stating FUD and nonsense as facts	06:51
N900foreva	how good will it be...this unoficial shit?	06:51
johnx	N900foreva, help us and it might be really good	06:51
N900foreva	did you guys see this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioNjJzNUZ4A&feature=player_embedded#!	06:52
N900foreva	its in chinese or some other shit but kinda interesting	06:52
* DocScrutinizer wonders what a troll like that one wants from meego, while calling 'nonofficial' shit :-S		06:53
luke-jr	N900foreva: Nokia is paying people to make MeeGo work on N900	06:53
DocScrutinizer	there's nothing better than proprietary supported FOSS - or what?	06:53
N900foreva	in that chinese video meego is really slow..	06:53
johnx	N900foreva, that	06:54
johnx	that is generally the way pre-alpha software looks	06:54
N900foreva	i know,,,,just sayin	06:54
DocScrutinizer	'just saying' is remarkably close to "just trolling for fun"	06:55
N900foreva	DocScrutinizer: open your mind my friend... it doesnt hurt to liesten to others	06:56
johnx	as long as there's something to listen to ...	06:56
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DocScrutinizer	I hurts my nerves to listen (and monitor) all the noise in this tiny channel	06:56
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DocScrutinizer	N900foreva: general policy here is we aren't interested in noise	06:57
N900foreva	DocScutinizer: if you dont like the openess of the internet may I suggest taking on a different hobby?	06:57
DocScrutinizer	and opinions are like assholes, everybody got one	06:57
johnx	N900foreva, if you want to be annoying, start your own channel	06:57
DocScrutinizer	N900foreva: may I suggest to you to respect channel policy	06:57
N900foreva	am I not Doc?	06:58
DocScrutinizer	to use your nice wording: just saying it smells like trolling	06:59
DocScrutinizer	and I got some reputation over the last few weeks to hate trolling	06:59
ColdFyre	i like trolls with pink hair	06:59
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N900foreva	thats too bad... sometimes trollers have some valid points...	06:59
DocScrutinizer	we aren't interested	07:00
N900foreva	DocScrutinizer: who is "we" ?	07:00
microlith	rarely does a troll have a -new- or -insightful- point	07:00
DocScrutinizer	the channel	07:00
johnx	N900foreva, him and me	07:00
N900foreva	we?	07:00
microlith	mostly they just hammer on some old-hat thing or get rude	07:00
N900foreva	DocScrutinizer: so you want this channel to be a love fest?	07:01
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microlith	N900foreva: putting some thought in your statements (and reading up on the subject at hand) helps enormously :)	07:01
johnx	the problem with trolling, is that even if a troll has a valid point, their way of expressing it is usually so distracting and divisive that nothing useful comes out of the discussion (argument)	07:01
DocScrutinizer	N900foreva: I explained to you about general chammel policy and you can read the topic. I'm not going to continue this nonsense conversation	07:02
N900foreva	guys... dont you think...and please dont take it the wrong way... dont you think you should get off your high horse sometimes?	07:02
johnx	N900foreva, about what?	07:02
ColdFyre	is it absurd to expect that being logged into skype on the n900 would not have the ability to reduce the battery life by ~75%?	07:03
N900foreva	its interesting how some people are totaly disgusted with this community....especially TMO	07:03
SpeedEvil	ColdFyre: yes	07:03
johnx	N900foreva, You mean why don't we all just go around complaining about the lack of PR1.3 and bitching about the lack of an official Meego for the N900?	07:03
johnx	yeah, that sounds productive	07:04
johnx	why didn't I think of that?	07:04
N900foreva	ColdFyre: forget skype on n900.... it eats battery like hell...	07:04
SpeedEvil	ColdFyre: skype is p2p	07:04
SpeedEvil	ColdFyre: 3G modems _suck_ power when asked to do constant activity.	07:04
ColdFyre	stupid question, would the number of contacts make a difference?	07:04
N900foreva	my n900 lasts about 6 hours....thats without skype	07:05
disco_stuIPV6	is the n900 ipv6 enabled ?	07:05
N900foreva	battery life isnt n900's strongest suite	07:05
DocScrutinizer	waitwaitwaitwaitwait	07:05
ColdFyre	and SpeedEvil oddly i get the same battery life with skype using gsm/3g/wifi	07:05
GAN900	johnx, it's certainly ones right as a consumer, though.	07:06
N900foreva	ColdFyre: number of contacts does not matter....skype is simply badly implemented on the n900	07:06
DocScrutinizer	N900foreva sounds friggin like n900lova n900hater, dunno what other nicks he burned with a ban	07:07
johnx	GAN900, ah, I must have stumbled into the consumers' channel. Could you direct me to the hackers' channel?	07:07
johnx	:>	07:07
ColdFyre	how could it be badly implemented?	07:07
N900foreva	ColdFyre: dont know mate	07:07
N900foreva	Just trying to help you	07:07
SpeedEvil	But, you're not.	07:08
SpeedEvil	Saying 'it doesn't work because it doesn't work' doesn't help anyone.	07:08
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DocScrutinizer	disco_stuIPV6: there's an experimental IPv6 stack for N900 somewhere	07:09
N900foreva	ColdFyre: i dont know what to tell you mate... all i know is skype sucks battery on my n900... the fanbois here might disagree and crucify me....just expressing my own experience	07:09
johnx	I don't think anyone disagrees that skype drinks battery life out of the N900	07:10
microlith	3G is a huge battery eater, just having skype active hasn't impacted my device's life on 2.5G	07:10
johnx	I wonder what the experience is on other devices ...	07:10
N900foreva	i dont see a difference between wlan and 3g to be honest	07:10
DocScrutinizer	N900foreva: warning for offense against general channel members (fanbois)	07:11
N900foreva	Doc: i said "might" and "Some"....thats an offense? Are you denying there are N900 supporters in this channel?	07:12
microlith	N900foreva: why is it that everyone with a criticizm agains the N900 feels a need to insult or attack even -some- members of the N900 userbase?	07:12
microlith	criticism*	07:13
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N900foreva	huh?	07:13
microlith	just go read the forums, you'll see	07:13
N900foreva	ok	07:13
DocScrutinizer	I'm more and more convinced N900foreva == n900lova	07:13
N900foreva	i gave up on TM)	07:13
N900foreva	TMO	07:14
johnx	N900foreva, so now you're trying to bring this channel to TMO's level?	07:14
N900foreva	no...	07:14
N900foreva	ever since nokia moved on to intel and meego this community has been in disarray and there are some very edgy individuals...which is understandable	07:15
johnx	N900foreva, yes. there have been edgy individuals and more and more trolls	07:16
N900foreva	define a "troll" folks....I'm listening	07:16
johnx	someone who purposefully tries to stir up trouble	07:16
N900foreva	johnx: specifics please	07:17
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microlith	he defined a troll	07:17
microlith	everything else is just methods	07:17
sandst1	"the fanbois here might disagree and crucify me....	07:17
sandst1	"	07:17
sandst1	that's kinda an engadget comment	07:17
johnx	trouble, as in, disagreement, reprisal, etc	07:17
N900foreva	"stir up trouble".... by having a preference or opinion different from yours? dont you think you learn and advance by listening to others? isnt that how humanity advances?	07:18
DocScrutinizer	http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/search?q=n900lova	07:18
johnx	Usually trolls have nothing new to say, but manage to phrase it in the way most likely to annoy other people and 'push their buttons'	07:18
N900foreva	DocScrutinizer: what are you trying to prove mr Sherlock Holmes?	07:19
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o johnx		07:19
N900foreva	N900lover was not me	07:19
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o microlith		07:19
*** microlith sets mode: -o microlith		07:19
N900foreva	ok...folks...im not trying to cause trouble... i want an intelligent discussion....	07:20
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sandst1	drop stuff like "it's in chinese or some other shit" and we're on teh way to a nicer discussion	07:21
johnx	N900foreva, about what?	07:22
N900foreva	everything	07:22
johnx	N900foreva, so you're here to try and get involved in maemo/meego development?	07:23
N900foreva	no...been there, done that	07:23
johnx	Well, if you're after insider info on the future of Maemo/Meego on the N900, the first place to look probably is t.m.o	07:24
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DocScrutinizer	[N900lova] ok... i jus wanna have a discussion...no harm intended peeps	07:25
DocScrutinizer	<N900foreva> ok...folks...im not trying to cause trouble... i want an intelligent discussion....	07:25
N900foreva	huh?	07:25
N900foreva	guys....why cant you have some fun sometimes and let loose? isnt the world too serious as it is? DocScrutinizer: I am looking at you too	07:26
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johnx	"let loose"? Now it's your turn to define what that means. Do you want someone to play checkers against or ... ?	07:28
N900foreva	nah....just joke and poke fun	07:28
EdLin	I don't hear anyone laughing	07:29
N900foreva	that's what i mean....maybe we should be laughing more often?	07:29
* johnx is waiting for the joke :)		07:29
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EdLin	You know why they call weight "weight"? Because you have to wait so long before it changes! Good joke?	07:32
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N900foreva	lol	07:33
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flux	edlin, I think it would be made even better if you explained it!	07:34
EdLin	flux: say "wait" and "weight" aloud, hopefully you'll get it.	07:34
flux	any joke can be enhanced by explaining it in excruciating detail	07:34
flux	OH WAI, right! hah. haa.	07:34
EdLin	flux: the more times you tell a joke, the funnier it gets.	07:35
johnx	flux, it might also be good to include a brief history of the joke's origins	07:35
EdLin	the origins? Me.	07:35
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johnx	maybe throw in some notes on the etymology of the words that form the pun	07:35
spinningcompass	homophones are tricky	07:36
johnx	I think you could probably get a 50 minute lecture out of that one	07:36
EdLin	spinningcompass: a homophone is a pink phone owned by a male.	07:36
spinningcompass	EdLin: You're thinking of an iPhone.	07:36
EdLin	spinningcompass: I knew someone would say that. :P	07:36
* spinningcompass hits a cymbal		07:37
N900foreva	goodnight folks	07:37
johnx	'night N900foreva	07:37
johnx	come back for more jokes :)	07:37
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sandst1	night	07:37
EdLin	night	07:38
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EdLin	note that he used the web gateway, probably to avoid an ip ban.	07:39
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johnx	DocScrutinizer, was trying to figure out how to do that :)	07:40
johnx	<- IRC n00b	07:40
EdLin	johnx: I knew my jokes would make him leave. :)	07:40
DocScrutinizer	/mode #maemo -o johnx	07:41
EdLin	they're known to clear out entire rooms of people.	07:41
johnx	I bet he's sitting ther thinking. "Jeez. They really are a bunch of boring nerds O_o" :)	07:41
johnx	DocScrutinizer, thanks :)	07:41
EdLin	johnx: some clients can just use /deop	07:41
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EdLin	/deop EdLin	07:42
DocScrutinizer	just /opm here ;-)	07:42
DocScrutinizer	and /dopm	07:42
EdLin	DocScrutinizer: which client, irssi?	07:43
johnx	If I had to ban him, I'd have had to look up the proper form for the pattern :D	07:43
DocScrutinizer	custom command, defined in Konversation	07:43
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DocScrutinizer	/kickban n900foreva!@*	07:43
EdLin	DocScrutinizer: oh, I should write that one, except I'm only an op on one channel, and an ircop on a trouble-free small network, so not worth the effort.	07:44
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johnx	ah, right, since he's on the web gateway :) I probably would have accidentally banned the web gateway ...	07:44
DocScrutinizer	lol	07:44
DocScrutinizer	no worries, we had to do that several times	07:44
DocScrutinizer	what's that prog called which identifies authors by analyzing the diction and used words?	07:46
EdLin	DocScrutinizer: are there any IRC clients for the latest Maemo that use the normal interface? I have xchat on my n810 but it's basically the normal xchat shrunk to a small screen.	07:46
DocScrutinizer	what's 'normal interface' for you?	07:47
DocScrutinizer	hildonized?	07:47
EdLin	DocScrutinizer: yeah	07:47
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DocScrutinizer	hmm, pidgin seems fully hildonnized but I hate it. xchat for fremantle is rather nice, though not really hildonized	07:48
EdLin	if not, maybe that would be a good first project for me on the n900. Though I've never written an irc client before. That is, if I manage to save pennies to get an n900 as I've planned.	07:48
johnx	might be best to just properly hildonize xchat	07:49
DocScrutinizer	the only things I'm missing in n900 xchat is an easy way to zoom fontsize (like in xterm), and finger friendly scrolling	07:49
johnx	or possibly clean up the interface to some Qt IRC client	07:49
EdLin	johnx: yeah, hildonizing xchat would be a good idea too.	07:50
johnx	best not to reinvent the wheel :)	07:50
* johnx goes back to reinventing the wheel		07:50
DocScrutinizer	;-P	07:50
EdLin	it's not really so painful using xchat on the n810, come to think of it, just inelegant.	07:50
DocScrutinizer	EdLin: on n900 i'm really quite happy with it, since I mapped sh-up/down to scroll	07:51
EdLin	nice	07:51
EdLin	scrolling is the worst part	07:51
johnx	on the N800 I used that theme that made all the scroll bars huge	07:52
johnx	makes a big difference in usability	07:52
sandst1	N800 was a 'bit' stylus optimized :)	07:53
EdLin	johnx: do you remember what the theme is called? It's probably on the n810 too.	07:54
johnx	sandst1, I bought mine open box. Never had a stylus until 2009-ish and I had it since a couple weeks after launch	07:54
johnx	EdLin, let me find it. one sec	07:54
asj	johnx: hildonize ksirc :)	07:55
DocScrutinizer	well, N8x0 had a menu button - something N900 is painfully missing	07:55
johnx	yeah. that was awfully nice	07:55
johnx	I used camkeyd for a while	07:55
EdLin	DocScrutinizer: I love all of the buttons on my n810. :)	07:55
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DocScrutinizer	Nokia MMI designers thoroughly spoiled that one for N900	07:56
t_s_o	how very odd, for some reason the time and date of my N800 had reset it self to 25 april 2008	07:56
DocScrutinizer	lol	07:56
t_s_o	at around 22:something	07:57
DocScrutinizer	removed battery?	07:57
johnx	EdLin, just remembered. It was called echowb. I think it's on t.m.o	07:57
EdLin	johnx: thanks	07:58
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DocScrutinizer	t_s_o: you should check hwclock	07:58
johnx	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=157491	07:58
DocScrutinizer	see if it's system time or RTC that got 'reset'	07:58
DocScrutinizer	btw: BUG - maemo fremantle writes back system time to RTC on shutdown	07:59
DocScrutinizer	wtf is every system maintainer convinced sysclock is better than RTC?	08:00
johnx	err, if you run ntpd, doesn't that change get made to sysclock	08:01
DocScrutinizer	there's just one moment where I'd consider systime better than RTC time, that's when systime is adjusted by NTP, GPS or even user interaction	08:01
johnx	so write it back then, and then skip the write-back at shutdown?	08:02
johnx	I'd buy that	08:02
DocScrutinizer	the very moment it actually gets adjusted	08:02
DocScrutinizer	johnx: exactly	08:02
DocScrutinizer	johnx: that's what I edit all my machines to do	08:02
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t_s_o	rtc seems to still follow utc or whatever its called	08:02
johnx	t_s_o, as is right and proper	08:02
DocScrutinizer	t_s_o: nod	08:02
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DocScrutinizer	t_s_o: so just do a `hwclock --hctosys`	08:03
t_s_o	if i had that installed ;)	08:03
DocScrutinizer	t_s_o: and thanks for confirming my point as elaborated above :-D	08:03
Trizt	wow, I won UK£1M thanks to Nokia ;) http://pastebin.com/DVdAqYhe	08:04
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DocScrutinizer	umm, yeah	08:05
t_s_o	i do wonder tho what caused the reset in the first place	08:05
DocScrutinizer	runaway process messing up system time	08:05
t_s_o	possibly	08:05
DocScrutinizer	obviously a process with root permissions	08:05
t_s_o	i have also seen the first couple of icons in the statusbar go missing from what appears to be a graphical "glitch", not sure if its related or not...	08:06
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t_s_o	bah, why is it that mobile seems to have turn google crazy? not only can the archos 5 not have market because its not a phone, to access the free apps on market one need a gmail account, one once set can only be changed with a full reset of the device its set on	08:16
t_s_o	i sure hope there will be some 4-5" screen size non-phone devices using meego, or the world will have become a less interesting place	08:17
Stskeeps	i have a 7" non-phone device using meego	08:17
Stskeeps	:P	08:17
Stskeeps	(my joggler)	08:18
johnx	possibly the culture of the company they absorbed that had written android?	08:18
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t_s_o	Stskeeps: while interesting, its still a x86 device, not a arm device (sorry that i didnt include that detail earlier)	08:22
Stskeeps	t_s_o: admittedly	08:22
Stskeeps	i like to be arch agnostic	08:22
t_s_o	johnx: or at least its leaders. android seems to be danger 2.0 in a way	08:22
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DocScrutinizer	if only the arch would be agnostic for the OS :-D	08:23
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t_s_o	tho i guess google is also trying to please the carriers so that they will accept android based products into their lineups	08:23
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t_s_o	Stskeeps: sure, i'm just kinda tired of x86, thats all. One x86 based product seems to be other alike.	08:23
johnx	Stskeeps, most agnostics are really just atheists who don't feel like arguing :>	08:23
Stskeeps	that too	08:24
ColdFyre	maemo 6 release date for the n900 is sept 13 o_o	08:25
t_s_o	maemo 6?	08:26
johnx	ColdFyre, wat?	08:26
ColdFyre	2011	08:26
Stskeeps	ColdFyre: [citation needed]	08:26
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t_s_o	another issue is that i would love to see arm act as a open field, rather then tied to the whims of intel and microsoft. But instead it seems to become the whims of carriers and google...	08:27
Stskeeps	things are improving in arm field, at least	08:27
johnx	t_s_o, to be fair, I'm pretty confident that in the long run android will have a positive effect on driver support in the linux kernel	08:28
johnx	even if things seem rocky right now	08:28
t_s_o	well, linaro brings hope, but how long will it take, and how much more ingranined will android have become by then	08:28
ColdFyre	imagine if xeons were made low enough power to use in mobile devices	08:28
* Trizt likes to see some Power 7 based devices		08:28
t_s_o	johnx: not as long as google seems to pay zero attention to the decisions related to the main kernel tree	08:28
* raster tries to imagine his old dual xeon 450 from 1999 with its heatsinks 5x the tickness of the n900		08:29
t_s_o	Trizt: or perhaps more mips, like that nanonote?	08:29
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Trizt	I'm a more of a PowerPC/Power kind of person	08:30
johnx	ColdFyre, they'd be called atoms	08:30
Stskeeps	steampunk mobile devices, a 80286 smartphone	08:30
Stskeeps	:P	08:30
t_s_o	johnx: complete with a nuclear fission mode?	08:31
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raster	and each heatsink EACH was 5x the thicnkess	08:32
raster	xeon itself was 1-2x thicker	08:32
raster	and 2 of them	08:32
raster	:)	08:32
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raster	t_s_o: linaro is doing positive things	08:33
raster	tho intel (and meego) likely wont like it	08:33
t_s_o	time will tell, but in the meantime i'm bored (and perhaps a bit sleepy)	08:33
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Stskeeps	raster: what won't we like?	08:33
Stskeeps	besides the fact linaro is a rather uncertain being, they seem to have their heads screwed okay on	08:34
raster	well linaro is in a way getting the arm worlds act together	08:34
Stskeeps	.. except for basing anything production on ubuntu ;)	08:34
raster	eg devidetree for kernel	08:34
Stskeeps	and? we have meego arm as well	08:34
raster	universal arm soc kernels	08:34
raster	better toolchains and so on	08:34
raster	yes	08:35
Stskeeps	better toolchains - work in gcc?	08:35
raster	thats a necessity	08:35
raster	not a desire	08:35
raster	itel are into meego for the aim oif pushing atom	08:35
Stskeeps	probably, and people are welcome to contribute to meegoa rm	08:35
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raster	and linaro is trying to get the linux arm shit together specifically to fight atom	08:35
Stskeeps	what better way to fight than to make ARM as easy as x86 to develop for?	08:36
Stskeeps	:P	08:36
raster	and sugar-coating either meego or linaro as anythgin else is just avoding the truth	08:36
raster	:)	08:36
Trizt	raster; do they have a money rich backup?	08:36
raster	Stskeeps: thats kind of the idea	08:36
raster	but on the other side4 linaro is bound deeply to canonical and cubuntu	08:37
Stskeeps	that one always wondered me a bit	08:37
raster	(though thats not really that widely publicised)	08:37
Stskeeps	frankly, if they defined linaro as 'organisation ARM SoC can push money into to have people contribute to open source projects upstream	08:37
Stskeeps	then it'd be a lot easier to understand	08:37
raster	which also makes it a direct competitor to meego too	08:37
Stskeeps	kinda like lobbying through code	08:37
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raster	so both on the hw platform and the distro platform its "all out war"	08:37
raster	the only bits they agree on are core os infra	08:37
luke-jr	some war	08:38
raster	(linxu kernel in generla, glibc, x11, dbus etc.)	08:38
luke-jr	ARM is clearly the winner	08:38
luke-jr	though I guess Intel has 3D accel	08:38
raster	everything else is pretty much diametrically opposed :(	08:38
Stskeeps	raster: i am worried that their focus on ubuntu might be their fail too	08:38
t_s_o	until nvidia gets tegra2 into actual production, if ever	08:38
Stskeeps	i mean, why focus on packaging -at all-?	08:38
Stskeeps	:P	08:38
Stskeeps	focus on providing drivers for different targets, meego, ubuntu, android	08:39
luke-jr	t_s_o: nVidia doesn't seem interested in making a real effort afaik	08:39
raster	Trizt: linaro.org - it has moneyed backing	08:39
raster	luke-jr: what 3d accel? intel gfx? hahahahahhaha	08:39
Stskeeps	and being the central provider for these things	08:39
luke-jr	raster: better than nothing	08:39
t_s_o	luke-jr: right now, everything not related to x86 and windows seems to be basically smoke and mirrors to get intel or microsoft to "behave"	08:39
raster	(i965, and friends)	08:39
raster	luke-jr: thats not embedded by a long shot	08:39
luke-jr	t_s_o: uh?	08:39
raster	intel license imgtec for atom	08:40
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raster	because tyhey dont have anything of their own	08:40
luke-jr	ok, so nobody really has 3D	08:40
SpeedEvil	I wonder what'd have been the effecrt if intel hadn't ditched strongarm	08:40
raster	not for embedded	08:40
Stskeeps	raster: how do you see the linaro effort from your project pov?	08:40
raster	there are 3 gpu's i know of	08:40
luke-jr	so ARM has already won	08:40
t_s_o	luke-jr: basically, tegra2 is nvidia hinting to intel that they can make a rival platform if intel do not relent on the ion issue. While meego is intel going "hey microsoft, wanna support atom?)	08:40
t_s_o	"	08:40
luke-jr	cuz Atom sucks	08:40
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raster	imgtec (most of them - mbc/sgx), arm (mali series) and the former ati gpu (qualcomm's gpu now)	08:40
raster	the otehr day i saw some amd one on an imx51	08:41
raster	i dont knwo what that is tho	08:41
raster	so i'll not comment until i know more	08:41
Stskeeps	meego != intel, just for what it's worth	08:41
Stskeeps	:P	08:41
luke-jr	raster: i.MX51 is Qualcomm's	08:41
luke-jr	which is some variant of Radeon r300	08:41
raster	but its performance was so poor - i suspect it was the same as qualcomm's on the snapdragon	08:41
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Stskeeps	intel might be agressive, but they're not blocking arm in meego	08:41
t_s_o	Stskeeps: i will belive it when i see a official nokia meego firmware ready to install on the n900 for ordinary users	08:41
Stskeeps	t_s_o: uhm, wtf does that have to do with meego.com?	08:42
raster	Stskeeps: tyhere more to be done than just drive3rs.	08:42
raster	theres integration and packaging	08:42
raster	thing slike just fixing up booting for example	08:42
luke-jr	t_s_o: there would be if Nokia wasn't blocking it	08:42
raster	frankly things li4ek systemd seem the right way to go	08:42
raster	and thats really invasive into a distro etc.	08:42
Stskeeps	t_s_o: nokia has decided not to make a official firmware, but this doesn't mean serious resources aren't going into meego ARM.	08:42
raster	oh yeah	08:43
raster	forgot about tegra2	08:43
raster	right now tho its a bit of an outlier	08:43
luke-jr	t_s_o: Nokia is fighting opening things	08:43
raster	as its totally bound to nvidia's arm soc that has dropped things like neon	08:43
raster	and its also HUGE	08:43
t_s_o	and yet there are zero arm releases but multiple x86 releases (specifically atom related releases, so no dice on older non-intel hardware, but thats a side-story)	08:43
raster	no way that can go in its current packaging into a phone	08:43
DocScrutinizer	raster: boo	08:43
t_s_o	so right now outwards meego looks like moblin with a fresh coat of paint	08:44
raster	Stskeeps: as for linaro - i like the idea. frankly until nokia decided to get in bed with meego it would have been a big plus for maemo	08:44
Stskeeps	t_s_o: zero, what?	08:44
raster	but as sucvh now meego and linaro are diametrically opposed distros	08:44
raster	:(	08:44
luke-jr	meh	08:44
luke-jr	just use Gentoo	08:44
raster	lets see how it all turns out	08:44
spinningcompass	As long as it supports PyQt, I'm happy.	08:45
raster	DocScrutinizer: docz!	08:45
Stskeeps	raster: i think there's a lot of collaboration on ARM side to be made, personally	08:45
Stskeeps	raster: oh, funny question	08:45
Stskeeps	raster: what is your opinion of what GLESv2 applications should link against on ARM? /usr/lib/libGLESv2.so or /usr/lib/libGLESv2.so.2 ?	08:46
Stskeeps	second one is acceptable in normal packaging guidelines	08:46
luke-jr	…	08:46
luke-jr	source code binds to the .so, binaries link with the specific version	08:46
luke-jr	the .2 signifies binary compatibility	08:47
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Stskeeps	luke-jr: except the .so only appears in -devel packages	08:47
DocScrutinizer	makes sense	08:48
DocScrutinizer	kinda	08:48
Stskeeps	so the files include a link to .2	08:48
luke-jr	…	08:48
raster	Stskeeps: oh in general i think so (collaboration)	08:48
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luke-jr	Stskeeps: compiler/linker makes the change from .so to .so.2	08:48
Stskeeps	luke-jr: because of SONAME	08:48
raster	but in the end the business reality is that neither side is going to want to fund something that doesnt better their own cause (or is neutral)	08:49
luke-jr	compile scripts just refer to .so	08:49
raster	so business-wise there is a clash coming	08:49
raster	the question is - how is it going to be dealt with	08:49
Stskeeps	luke-jr: problem is, SONAME is .so on GLESv2	08:49
raster	as for gl-es - well the version is already in the soname	08:50
Stskeeps	the .2?	08:50
raster	there is little need to repeat it in the soversion major #	08:50
raster	tho the v2 honestly should never have been there	08:50
luke-jr	Stskeeps: they should link to libGL.so :D	08:50
Stskeeps	the reason i'm asking is because mesa libEGL/libGLESv2 forces .so.1/so.2	08:50
luke-jr	actually no	08:50
raster	but thats also a fault of the gles2.x vs 2.0 standards body	08:50
Stskeeps	which is what most people will link against	08:50
luke-jr	libGLESv2.so could be a link to libGL.so, but not vice-versa	08:51
raster	so there is little choice but to put it in the link line explicitly	08:51
Stskeeps	raster: my personal view is that ARM is partly at fault for missing the boat on moving from being an embedded shop to mobile computing.. so all the environments and licenses center around typical embedded business, like, OE, weird cross compilers, pay-per-device hardware licensing..	08:51
raster	but as such i'd say it should link to /usr/lib/libGLESv2.so at compile time	08:51
raster	and that is a symlinkt to the real versioned so	08:51
luke-jr	Stskeeps: erm… OE began with mobile computing	08:52
Stskeeps	we're moving to link to /usr/lib/libGLESv2.so.2 in meego and linaro, at least	08:52
raster	and well i suspect that is so.1.x.x	08:52
raster	or	08:52
Stskeeps	luke-jr: it's still a very embedded mindset and not for the faint at heart	08:52
raster	.so.1	08:52
raster	ie they have a single unbroken api for gles-2.0	08:52
* luke-jr remembers when OE was known as OpenZaurus ☺		08:52
raster	imho glesv2 should have the usual	08:53
raster	/usr/lib/libGLESv2.so -> libGLESv2.so.1	08:53
raster	libGLESv2.so.1 -> libGLESv2.so.1.1	08:53
DocScrutinizer51	OE :-/	08:54
raster	libGLESv2.so.1.1 -> libGLESv2.so.1.1.15.2856	08:54
raster	and the /usr/lib/libGLESv2.so is only in the dev packages	08:54
raster	so binaries come out linking to libGLESv2.so.1	08:54
Stskeeps	raster: agreed	08:54
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Stskeeps	i am still not sure why it's .2 on libGLESv2.	08:54
raster	i dont see that it should have a major so.2.x	08:54
raster	why is it 2?	08:55
DocScrutinizer	http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Program-Library-HOWTO/shared-libraries.html FWIW	08:55
Stskeeps	mesa decided it was so, it seems	08:55
raster	imgtec disagrees	08:55
raster	:)	08:55
DocScrutinizer	seems lib devels never learn to get their vrsioning sorted	08:55
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Stskeeps	raster: funny fact - reason why they don't do that is because their build system is so broken a proper SONAME can't be set..	08:56
raster	?	08:56
raster	imgtec?	08:57
Stskeeps	yeah	08:57
raster	never looked	08:57
Stskeeps	even moorestown SGX went for just symlinking	08:57
Stskeeps	:P	08:57
raster	as such i tont think its imgtec's issue	08:57
raster	as they just leave it up to vendors to customise their src	08:57
raster	ie rebuild it	08:57
raster	who provided the libGLESv2.so ?	08:58
Stskeeps	hm? usually SoC vendor	08:58
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raster	its the soc vendors fault then	08:58
raster	not imgtec	08:58
raster	or even then	08:58
raster	not soc vendor	08:58
raster	likely device vendor	08:58
Stskeeps	well, code stems from imgtec	08:59
raster	eg - for n900 nokia will build the gles libs and drivers	08:59
raster	its nokias fault	08:59
Stskeeps	problem stems from the code used though	08:59
raster	dont think so	08:59
raster	my glesv2's have a proper version	08:59
raster	it happens to be 1.1....	09:00
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DocScrutinizer	(<raster> its nokias fault) now that sounds somewhat familiar :-P	09:00
Stskeeps	raster: so does moorestown sgx, except there's a symlink to .so.2, heh	09:01
Stskeeps	.. ducttape galore	09:01
DocScrutinizer	nokia doesn't exactly have any noticeable record of being particularly gifted system maintainers	09:02
DocScrutinizer	~optification	09:02
infobot	extra, extra, read all about it, optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs	09:02
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Stskeeps	we're going to start the morning with an optification discussion. really?	09:03
Stskeeps	:P	09:03
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raster	Stskeeps: morestown i believe was provided by precision insight - intel hired them to do a different driver impl.	09:03
DocScrutinizer	just felt like quoting another duct tape botch	09:03
Stskeeps	raster: hm? looks like pretty ordinary sgx to me	09:03
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DocScrutinizer	or: [2010-08-23 06:59:24] <DocScrutinizer> btw: BUG - maemo fremantle writes back system time to RTC on shutdown	09:05
Stskeeps	how is that a bug?	09:05
DocScrutinizer	though thats heritage	09:05
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DocScrutinizer	sysclock never is better than RTC, on system shutdown	09:06
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DocScrutinizer	hwclock needs to be adjusted only when some startum<low> time source is adjusting the system time	09:06
DocScrutinizer	never(1) on shutdown	09:06
DocScrutinizer	s/1/!	09:07
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raster	Stskeeps: thats my understanding. as opposed with going with the normal imgtec provided drivers they paid precisaion insight to do new ones	09:08
raster	maybe thats an earlier atom with the sgx	09:08
DocScrutinizer	almost all disros got that wrong, at least by default. Some allow to disable that nonsense via sysconfig/	09:08
Stskeeps	raster: that's probably gma500 you're thinking of	09:08
raster	i may be mixing it up as too many codenames etc. floating aboiut	09:08
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raster	ahhh ok	09:08
raster	gma500	09:08
raster	that rings a bell	09:08
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raster	brb	09:13
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pronto	wow skype has a massive bug	09:16
pronto	like it littery turns off the phone	09:16
DocScrutinizer51	Stskeeps: suspend (to disk/ram) on OM/OE kernel even does a totally weird thing: it calculates skew between RTC and sysclock on suspend and restores this same skew on resume - alas plus some seconds error due to latency	09:17
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rmrfchik	hi	09:17
DocScrutinizer51	Stskeeps: generally sysclosk always is way off from correct time, comapred to RTC	09:17
* rmrfchik lost trying to build package in QtCreator		09:17
DocScrutinizer51	and using adjtime makes things even much much worse	09:18
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DocScrutinizer51	Stskeeps: as a general rule never adjust RTC without adjusting sysclock same moment	09:19
DocScrutinizer51	which implicitly disqualifies sysclock as a time source for RTC adjustment	09:19
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DocScrutinizer51	(of course this lets aside the deprecation of sudden time changes on systime. In real life I rarely ever seen anybody feeling concened abot that though, esp on single user systems)	09:24
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mece	'ello 'ello maemites	09:31
Stskeeps	moo	09:31
mece	what's new and exciting?	09:31
Stskeeps	another work week.	09:32
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mece	yay verily yay	09:32
luke-jr	DocScrutinizer51: why not just grab clock from GPS?	09:32
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DocScrutinizer	yeah why? dunno, ask Nokia	09:32
Stskeeps	that one i don't understand either	09:32
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Stskeeps	there's a massive framework for time setting, closed source	09:33
Stskeeps	and why does my device still ask for time/date in first boot	09:33
Stskeeps	?	09:33
Stskeeps	:P	09:33
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ShadowJK	it asks for time and suggests the correct time itself	09:33
DocScrutinizer	they screwed it, as usual	09:33
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DocScrutinizer	know why? just because nokia doesn't like peer review	09:34
DocScrutinizer	and seems meego isn't any better wrt that	09:35
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DocScrutinizer	obviously, due to limited HR Nokia doesn't even allow much internal peer review	09:36
* Stskeeps glares at DocScrutinizer and goes do work		09:36
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DocScrutinizer51	no need to glare at me. I'm just telling what is obvious from looking at it from outside	09:42
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DocScrutinizer51	from my POV and experience there's just so much difference between bme and sensorfw (or whatyacallit), regarding missing abstract system integration / API and operation mode whitepapers. The existing open source is just a small slice of the cake	09:46
Sargun_Screen	hey	09:47
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johnx\|debook	DocScrutinizer, actually, I've been curious about what kind how openmoko handled power management 'policy'	09:48
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lpotter	heh. there was none	09:48
johnx\|debook	well there isn't for maemo (or meego yet, AFAIK)	09:48
johnx\|debook	but I had some ideas, so I'm going to try and hack something together and see exactly how dumb I am :)	09:49
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DocScrutinizer51	depends on your definition of OM and of 'power mgmt'	09:49
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johnx\|debook	not just power management, but what sets 'policy'	09:49
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DocScrutinizer51	policy for what exactly?	09:50
johnx\|debook	What I'm thinking of how to the whole set of currently running programs more aware about the current state of the device	09:50
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johnx\|debook	Have you seen dbus-scripts and/or ActionManager?	09:51
DocScrutinizer51	ideally they don't need to	09:51
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DocScrutinizer51	yep	09:51
johnx\|debook	For example, I'd really like my device to be pull music/movies down from my desktop sometime during the night, as long as it's on wifi and plugged into power	09:53
johnx\|debook	or I'd really like my torrent client to turn off when I unplug the charger	09:53
DocScrutinizer51	a prog might be interested in a number of things, like 'online' 'visible' and dunno what. A general power mgmt policy though is largely useless for programs	09:53
johnx\|debook	I think that's fair	09:53
johnx\|debook	so maybe I misspoke when I said 'power management'	09:53
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DocScrutinizer51	for a general statement on OM you might want to look into freesmartphone.org for that	09:54
DocScrutinizer51	apps allocate/free and query particular resources	09:55
DocScrutinizer51	fso does the rest	09:55
johnx\|debook	what if an app isn't in a position where it can query the current state? (ie, if it's not running)	09:55
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DocScrutinizer51	err?	09:56
johnx\|debook	for example, if I wanted my torrent client to start as long as some conditions were met?	09:56
DocScrutinizer51	you can have rules for certain resorce events talking to/starting certain dbus clients	09:57
ColdFyre	invoke it via shell script?	09:57
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DocScrutinizer51	e.g on inbound sms fso will try to talk to and implicitly start fsopimd	09:58
johnx\|debook	DocScrutinizer, ok, that is exactly what I'm looking for then :) I kind of figured I was re-inventing the wheel, but I couldn't find prior art	09:58
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DocScrutinizer51	inbound call does same with dialer-ui - whatever its called on fso	09:59
DocScrutinizer51	fsophoned?	09:59
* johnx\|debook reads		10:00
DocScrutinizer51	check out http://freesmartphone.org	10:00
johnx\|debook	yup, on it	10:00
johnx\|debook	looking at the architecture	10:00
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DocScrutinizer	architecture is nice (hehe, a tiny bit is by me :-p)	10:01
johnx\|debook	making this face: >_< because I just spent my sunday night reading 'dbus-scripts.c' trying to get a feel for working with dbus and glib in C	10:02
DocScrutinizer	ping mickeyl if you want 1. hand info	10:02
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johnx\|debook	I'll read a bit before I waste a whole bunch of other people's time without knowing if anyone in else in maemo/meego land is even interested :)	10:02
DocScrutinizer	btw SHR/FSO will come to N900 in a short while :-)	10:02
johnx\|debook	via Meego? or to Maemo 5?	10:03
Stskeeps	hopefully we will all be dead and gone by then	10:03
Stskeeps	:P	10:03
DocScrutinizer	lol	10:03
johnx\|debook	aaah, the whole stack?	10:03
DocScrutinizer	yup, lol	10:03
johnx\|debook	O_o;	10:03
Stskeeps	next question is why would anyone want that	10:03
DocScrutinizer	ask the people who seem to want it, not me :-P	10:04
johnx\|debook	Stskeeps, I'm not sure yet, but the policy stuff might have been what we were looking for for a while ...	10:04
DocScrutinizer	my words	10:04
DocScrutinizer	since meego first days	10:04
Stskeeps	shr was part reason why i wanted to throw my FR out the window when getting it	10:04
DocScrutinizer	mhm	10:05
johnx\|debook	shr?	10:05
DocScrutinizer	because it obsoleted mer?	10:05
johnx\|debook	mer obsoleted itself :>	10:06
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DocScrutinizer	http://www.shr-project.org/trac	10:06
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Stskeeps	johnx\|debook: at least meego seems to be the kicker to move to a more open platform with open telephony stack, redistributable firmware, bme, sgx..	10:07
Stskeeps	upstream kernel..	10:08
Stskeeps	so i like to think we made a difference somewhere	10:08
johnx\|debook	Stskeeps, I think we did	10:08
johnx\|debook	Even if it was mainly to serve as a warning to others :)	10:08
Stskeeps	hehe	10:08
Stskeeps	'be careful what you wish for'	10:08
Stskeeps	:P	10:08
Stskeeps	someone suggested to port maemo gtk to meego..	10:09
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DocScrutinizer	johnx\|debook: http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_Developer_Device_Queue /shr	10:09
johnx\|debook	But the lack of some kind of policy daemon or service in meego weirds me out	10:09
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Stskeeps	johnx\|debook: there's one actually, or supposed to come	10:09
Stskeeps	i can't recall the name offhand	10:10
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johnx\|debook	I couldn't find the info...and last time I asked in #meego no one could tell me if they'd have cron or if scheduling would happen some other way	10:10
Stskeeps	ah	10:11
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Stskeeps	timed is coming now	10:11
Stskeeps	sec	10:11
johnx\|debook	I think I'm failing to R the proper FM :)	10:11
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johnx\|debook	directions to its location appreciated :P	10:11
Stskeeps	looking..	10:11
Stskeeps	http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-middleware/timed	10:11
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* DocScrutinizer frowns at timed and other non compatible cron replacements		10:12
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Stskeeps	cron's kinda crap for the typical alarm/'wake me up at this point'	10:13
Stskeeps	:P	10:13
DocScrutinizer	there's no obvious rationale why crond can't learn to behave on embedded devices, with RTC Alarms even	10:13
Stskeeps	patch would never go upstream	10:14
DocScrutinizer	reinventing the wheel all the time	10:14
johnx\|debook	though really, it also shouldn't be hard to patch timed to read crontabs to generate events	10:14
mortini	anacron! :P	10:14
DocScrutinizer	fsck anacron	10:14
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DocScrutinizer	johnx\|debook: so then I'd not care if it's called timed or crond. I'd simply create a symlink in /bin :-P	10:15
ilius	when i add maemo repos to ubuntu and update, i get this error:	10:15
ilius	W: GPG error: http://repository.maemo.org fremantle Release: The following signatures couldn't be verified because the public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY E40DC434616730BD	10:15
johnx\|debook	or just make a crontab that will take a properly formatted crontab file and create a timed event for you ...	10:15
Stskeeps	it's not an error, it says W:	10:16
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ilius	ubuntu 10.04 i386	10:16
johnx\|debook	ilius, it's 'as intended' according to Nokia. You'd have to take it up with them directly. I suggest calling their customer support :)	10:16
DocScrutinizer	johnx\|debook: that's roundabout how fsocrond works	10:17
ilius	but all of repos is ignored or huted	10:17
ilius	*hit	10:17
DocScrutinizer	johnx\|debook: (suggested by me :-P)	10:17
ilius	Ign http://repository.maemo.org/extras/ fremantle/free Translation-en_US	10:17
ilius	Ign http://repository.maemo.org/extras/ fremantle/non-free Translation-en_US	10:17
ilius	Ign http://repository.maemo.org fremantle/sdk Release.gpg	10:17
ilius	....	10:17
johnx\|debook	ilius, that doesn't mean what you think it means	10:18
hrw	morning	10:19
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ilius	when downloading index, most of files is Faild or Hit	10:19
johnx\|debook	ok failed will have a reason why next to them	10:19
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johnx\|debook	actually, just pastebin the whole output	10:20
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Stskeeps	ilius: also, why are you trying to insert maemo repos into ubuntu?	10:20
johnx\|debook	mornin' hrw, lbt :)	10:20
Stskeeps	only insane people do that	10:20
Stskeeps	(<-)	10:20
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johnx\|debook	hey. I tried to do it and make it work for like a year. I learned my lesson ...	10:20
ilius	Stskeeps: yes	10:20
ilius	Stskeeps: it supports i386	10:21
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Stskeeps	ilius: still..	10:21
Stskeeps	:P	10:21
johnx\|debook	It probably won't work the way you think it will work	10:21
ilius	http://paste.ubuntu.com/482220/	10:21
aboyer	can i use the latest debian-squeeze devkit (ie: v1.0.5) for maemo development?	10:22
ShadowJK	Using repos from distro X in distro Y usually results in disaster :p	10:22
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jacekowski	aboyer: use lenny	10:22
johnx\|debook	ilius, yes. That run of apt-get update completted successfully	10:22
ilius	johnx\|debook: but no package is index except for python-conic !!	10:23
johnx\|debook	go read the lists apt downloaded for you	10:23
aboyer	jacekowski: i'm trying to build my app with maemo-sdk-symbols and a post on the mailing list recomends squeeze (http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/developers/60704)	10:24
DocScrutinizer	johnx\|debook: oops, s/fsocrond/fsoatd/	10:24
johnx\|debook	ilius, in /var/lib/apt/lists/	10:24
aboyer	jacekowski: however, it an old thread and there is a newer version of the sqeeze devkit now..	10:24
DocScrutinizer	johnx\|debook: the fsocrond was suggested by me, but not yet implemented it seems	10:24
jacekowski	aboyer: use lenny	10:25
jacekowski	aboyer: other devkits have issues	10:25
aboyer	alright, where do i get it?	10:25
jacekowski	you should have it in /scratchbox/packages/	10:25
jacekowski	or somewhere	10:25
jacekowski	/scratchbox/devkits/	10:25
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johnx\|debook	Stskeeps, any idea about the name of that policy daemon for meego?	10:33
Stskeeps	johnx\|debook: sorry, it still escapes me	10:34
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johnx\|debook	think it's on gitorious or would it still be on the drawing board?	10:34
Stskeeps	possibly on gitorious or in source rpms	10:34
johnx\|debook	thanks. I'll try and track it down	10:35
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