IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2010-08-21

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skyscraperanyone can program an simple SPL DB-meter for n900?00:04
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mortinianyone can do anything.00:04
skyscraperi CANT do that00:05
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skyscraperi CAN do that for windows with pascal xD... but not for n900 with c++ (qt)00:05
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SpeedEvilyou don't have to do qt00:06
SpeedEvilyou could even do a spl meter with awk + zenity00:07
skyscraperqt is easier than plain c++?00:07
SpeedEvilzenity is a trivial program to show dialogs from scripts.00:07
SpeedEvilawk is a simple scripting language.00:08
Shapeshifter<3 awk00:08
skyscraperdont know how00:09
mortinicould also use something like python or perl with zenity or whatever.00:09
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luke-jrQt is easier than C++ IMO00:10
luke-jrbut only in some cases00:10
luke-jrthe right tool for the job, really00:10
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mortinithe most complex part of doing a spl meter is getting data from the microphone, it would seem00:11
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mortiniin a meaningful way00:12
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skyscraperits hard for me in pascal... so i CANT do it in c++00:18
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Shapeshifterskyscraper: oh grow up00:20
SpeedEvilMy device is giving 'SIM registration failed' at somewhat random intervals.00:20
Shapeshifterskyscraper: step 1: read documentation on how to use the mic, step 2: write trivial application in python. Use this tutorial as a starting point:
SpeedEvilCleaning the SIM and adding a paper shim behind the holder has not worked.00:21
SpeedEvilDoes anyone have any thoughts?00:21
GAN900SpeedEvil, restarting usually fixes it.00:21
GAN900At least here00:21
ToJa92[SpeedEvil]: Mine too, my SIM card is pretty weared though, it's probably 4 / 5 years old00:21
skyscraperSpeedEvil: having same problem sometimes00:21
ToJa92wore out*00:21
SpeedEvildoesn't really help if I miss calls as my cell functrionality died00:22
ShapeshifterSpeedEvil: maybe get a new sim from your provider?00:22
Pincy55on your side i would go to an office of my operator and make them as long probs till they give a new simcard00:23
Pincy55for them its no thing to give u a card and bind it to your njumber00:23
lardmannight all00:24
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* SpeedEvil wanders round his providers website.00:25
TomaszDSpeedEvil, are you talking about the n900?00:27
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TomaszDdo you randomly get the "no-sim" icon in the status area?00:28
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skyscraperis there now the possibility to dump wlan with n900?00:30
pupnik'dump wlan'?00:31
ShadowJKI once got the "no sim" icon when it was just the operator fucking up00:31
ShadowJKand it went away without rebooting or reseating sim :/00:31
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kerioairodump works00:32
SpeedEvilyes TomaszD00:32
kerioinjection doesn't, yet00:32
skyscraperairodump yes aireplay no?00:32
kerioskyscraper: yup00:33
TomaszDSpeedEvil, yeah, your cellmo is dying00:33
skyscraper how did he do it?00:33
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TomaszDtry with another sim card SpeedEvil, but in a few days that nosim icon will be permanent00:33
SpeedEvilbeen doing it for a month or two00:34
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TomaszDthen that's different00:34
GAN900Same here since September.00:34
nox-isnt aircrack in extras-devel nowadays?  (you need power kernel tho afaik)00:34
SpeedEvilhave you had that happen to you?00:34
GAN900Not dead yet.00:35
TomaszDI've had my maemo summit device00:35
TomaszD's cellmo die on me during the summit00:35
TomaszDwith exactly the same symptoms00:35
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Dantonichey guys I have a question.   I had to send my N900 in for warranty repair, and I got it back a couple of days ago.  They wiped everything on it and did a fresh install.  I used to be able to run commands with the "sudo" command   like  "sudo reboot" stuff like that.  I can no longer do it, it asks me for a password.  I cannot remember for the life of me how to get rid of that password prompt00:36
TomaszDsent it back to Finland, got a replacement00:36
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SpeedEvilDantonic: rootsh00:37
TomaszDDantonic, install rootsh package00:37
DantonicSpeedEvil, rootsh lets me do sudo gainroot00:37
Dantonicnot sudo command00:37
SpeedEvilyou just type droot00:37
TomaszDyes, or just "root"00:37
SpeedEviland you're root00:37
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DantonicSpeedEvil, TomaszD but is there a way to enable the sudo command? at this point I'm just curious....  "root" is a lot better than "sudo gainroot"00:38
TomaszDwell... you have to edit the sudoers file, but in order to do that you have to be root00:39
skyscraper ^^00:39
SpeedEvilDantonic: install rootsh package00:40
DantonicTomaszD, I never did that in the beginning I'm curious to understand how I was able to run "sudo command" before they flashed the device...00:40
DantonicSpeedEvil, I have it installed00:40
Dantonic"root" works00:40
SpeedEvilThere are still bugs though.00:40
SpeedEvilNokia-N900-02-8:~$ sudo make me a sandwitch00:40
SpeedEvilmake: *** No rule to make target `me'.  Stop.00:40
TomaszDDantonic, rootsh enabled sudo for you00:41
TomaszDbut sudo gainroot is deprecated00:41
TomaszDjust use root00:41
DantonicTomaszD, yes, I'm just saying the ability to just type "sudo" and a command after it right from the terminal00:42
Dantoniclike you can do under ubuntu00:42
Dantonicfor example00:42
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DantonicI used to reboot my tablet all the time just typing "sudo reboot"00:42
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Dantonicwithout "rooting" it first00:43
pupnikyou don't need 'sudo' on a system with real root00:43
SpeedEvil$  sudo reboot00:43
SpeedEvil+ [ x6 = x-t ]00:43
SpeedEvil+ touch /tmp/reboot00:43
pupniksu -c 'command here' for example00:43
SpeedEvilIt works00:43
SpeedEviljusrt intall rootsh00:43
skyscrapersudo as root in n900 doesnt work00:44
TomaszDyou had to have it "rooted" first, as sudo is disabled by default00:44
DantonicSpeedEvil, rootsh is installed and it does not work for me.00:44
Dantonicit asks me for a password00:44
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TomaszDisn't the password "rootme" ?00:45
guysoft22hey all, i have a strange problem on my N810! on my normal OS (on the memory card) the battary gauge does not show the correct charge (does not animate when charging). but in my backed up one in the internal memory card it works fine00:45
skyscraperr&d helps ;p00:45
guysoft22did anyone come across this?00:45
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Dantonicskyscraper, u think maybe I used to have R&D mode enabled before?00:46
Dantonicthat's why it worked that way without password request?00:46
Dantonicthat might explain why the battery life is sooo much better now00:46
skyscraperworks without r&d ;)00:46
guysoft22can someone please help me? its urgent for me to locate and fix this problem!00:46
Pincyis there a place where i can get help with the ja2 port?00:48
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Dantonicman what is this password that it asks for it's not "rootme00:48
DantonicI set a password when I installed the SSH client/server but that doesn't work either00:48
DantonicI think that's just a user password tho right?00:49
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Dantonicand I can't even SSH into the tablet00:50
Dantonicthe password I set does not work00:50
SpeedEvilcan you ping it?00:51
Pincyi had this problem only one time, i restarted terminal, and tried again "sudo gainroot" then it worked00:52
DantonicI do ssh@ip  and it prompts me to add RSA to list etc... then it asks for password00:52
Dantonicbut pass doesnt work00:52
Dantonicerr ssh user@ip00:52
guysoft22might anyone know how the battery status works in the N810? something is making it show wrong readings on mine, while an older os i have installed works fine00:53
Dantonicguysoft22, maybe try asking in the forums u might have better luck if you can't get an answer here....00:54
guysoft22Dantonic, im flying to india in two days, just found it out now.. and i been searching with no mention of something like this00:54
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Dantonicguysoft22, have you tried installing one of the other apps that do battery monitoring?  maybe that will work00:54
guysoft22Dantonic, i just installed advanced power thing testing it while posting here00:55
Dantonicya I use that on my N80000:55
guysoft22Dantonic, ok, the good news is it shows when it charges, which is an improvement.. i guess ill see if it shows fully charge tomorrow morning00:57
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Dantonicok guysoft22 another option could be just making a backup of your settings and apps, and flashing the device... see if that works.  Maybe your battery is starting to go bad as well.  I am not an expert all here just so u know.01:00
guysoft22Dantonic, i dont have time for that, its a problem :-/01:00
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lcukhello maemoers \o01:02
Pincyif someone here is touch with the problems the jagged alliance 2 port causes pls help me in the thread01:03
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spinningcompassIs there a standard "This program is loading" app that tells the user to wait until the app actually appears? PyQt apps can take 15-20 seconds to load.01:04
lcukspinningcompass, an application can configure a fake cover screen01:04
Dantonicok SpeedEvil, TomaszD, skyscraper I am a little dumb.. I was trying to ssh into user, but I kept chaing the password for root... so as root I did a passwd user and changed the password.  now I can ssh into the N900...  however now when I try to run a "sudo command" I get the message "Sorry, user user is not allowed to execute '/sbin/reboot' as root on Nokia-N900"01:05
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Dantonicnow it doesnt even ask me for the password01:05
Dantonicit just says that01:05
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zashDantonic: borked sudoers ?01:05
Dantoniczash idk I didn't touch it01:06
lcukDantonic, are you trying to "sudo /sbin/reboot"01:06
Dantonicwell lcuk... I jsut got my N900 back from repair, the flashed it.  I used to be able to run sudo commands like "sudo reboot"... now I can't do it anymore01:06
Dantonicwith rootsh I can do root01:06
Dantonicbut not with just a straight sudo command01:06
Dantonicit was asking me for a password when I would try01:07
DantonicI had installed the ssh server/client01:07
Dantonicand set a password for the server01:07
Dantonichonestly I'm not sure what I'm doing lcuk01:07
lcuksounds reasonable, I dont think I have ever tried to sudo from user01:08
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nox-id say you need to add an entry for reboot to sudoers, heres a manpage:
Dantonicused to work for me since I bought the thing... that's how I would always reboot my device  "sudo reboot"01:08
SpeedEvil GAN90001:08
povbotBug 10307: Unregistered SIM error01:08
lcuknox-, nahhh adding an entry into sudoers is different01:09
Dantonicnox-, ya but that's not the point... I used to always be able to run commands like that... like when wanting to edit a file:  "sudo leafpad file.txt"01:09
lcukat least for a specific call like that01:09
Dantonicor "sudo apt-get install package"01:09
Dantonicwithout having to root first01:09
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Dantonicjust wondering why I cannot do it anymore01:09
nox-oh well then you want to allow sudo globally like on ubuntu...01:10
lcukDantonic, you are missing sudser01:10
DantonicI thought sudser was no longer available for N90001:10
Dantonicis it available?01:10
Dantonicthat's what that link says01:10
lcukbut that does what you are after01:10
Dantonicand I cannot find it in the repositories01:10
lcukperhaps you have had it from start01:10
Dantonicand now I don't :(01:11
Dantonichow sad01:11
DantonicIt is not currently available for Fremantle (i.e. N900).01:11
GAN900rootsh works well enough01:11
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nox-oh wow i didnt know about /etc/sudoers.d ...  thats even different again then  o_O01:12
Jef91So my firefox mobile randomly stopped loading today on my n900. Anyone know the command to launch it from cli so I can see what is wrong?01:13
Jef91So my firefox mobile randomly stopped loading today on my n900. Anyone know the command to launch it from cli so I can see what is wrong?01:13
* nox- so far only edited sudoers on non-n900 :P01:13
lcukDantonic, its on diable and chinook repositories01:13
lcukif it installs happily for you01:13
lcukperhaps you could follow it up and push to fremantle for everyone01:14
Dantonicwhat if I wanted to run a command from an applet or something that needs that sudo how could I do it then?01:14
Dantoniclcuk I have no idea how to do that01:14
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lcukok Dantonic I can point you to the repository but since its for the old OS and its not been pushed to fremantle theres no confidence it will work and it might bork your system etc01:16
Dantoniclcuk that's ok thanks for trying but I don't want to risk that01:16
* lcuk nods01:16
DantonicI just got it back from repair because it was "borked"01:16
lcukyeah thought as much01:16
nox-theres an ff version in ovi store too01:16
* lcuk will test it01:17
nox-(or is that one outdated as well?)01:17
DantonicI just don't get how I could do it before.... heh what a mystery!01:17
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* lcuk just installed sudser and from x-terminal did "sudo reboot"01:18
lcukwhich before would not let me01:18
SpeedEvilDantonic: you want01:19
* lcuk ponders how to submit now to fremantle01:19
SpeedEvilDantonic: queen-beecon01:19
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Dantoniclcuk who knows maybe I installed that back in the day... and can't remember hehehe01:20
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SpeedEvilHas anyone installed syslogd01:23
SpeedEvilI've installed it.01:23
SpeedEvilOn inspection of the syslog it says it's logging to /home/user/var/log/syslogd01:23
SpeedEvilbut it's not01:23
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SpeedEvilKilling it manually and restarting makes it do the right thing.01:25
* SpeedEvil is confused.01:25
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DocScrutinizerlcuk: I always thought *#-enabler would be the most minimal 'pkg* possible. But sudser? c'mon01:25
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: probably it's started too early?01:26
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: btw killing isn't necessary, think kill -SIGxxx rereads the config, should suffice01:27
lcukDantonic, potentially, as SpeedEvil says queenbeecon gives lots of nice features, try than01:27
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Dantoniclooks complicated01:28
DantonicI'll have to read the wiki for it01:29
Dantonicbut in the meanwhile u should work on sudser!! :)01:29
DocScrutinizerDantonic: man sudoers;01:30
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lcukDantonic, I have no personal need for it01:31
lcukI just ssh root@localhost01:31
lcukwhenever I need anything01:31
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lcukI am happy to leave sudo as it stands01:32
DocScrutinizerman visudo01:32
lcukis it already in maemo?01:32
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lcukie keeping it simple :P01:32
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kerioqueen beecon is :301:33
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keriostill haven't found a use for it, but meh01:33
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lcuk2Dantonic, I am sending a mail to its maintainer :) its a long shot but might be ok01:37
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lcuk2Dantonic, can you PM me your mail address please and I will cc you into the mail01:42
lcuk2and you can poke me in a while if nothing happens ;)01:42
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lcuk2ok Dantonic you have the mail now I hope, I *will* forget about this, so since you are eager to have its functionality you can poke me01:45
Dantonicok ty01:45
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DocScrutinizerDantonic: root; echo -e "Defaults targetpw\nuser     ALL = (ALL) NOPASSWD: ALL" >/etc/sudoers.d/dantonic_special01:46
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DocScrutinizerDantonic: root; echo  "user     ALL = (ALL) NOPASSWD: ALL" >/etc/sudoers.d/dantonic_special01:47
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lcuk2and DocScrutinizer having that as a package is 100000000% better01:47
lcuk2because in 6 months time when he reinstalls he could just restore a backup and get it back01:48
* DocScrutinizer cackles01:48
lcuk2with your method he iwll forget01:48
kerioDocScrutinizer: s/dantonic_special/massive_security_hole/01:48
* lcuk2 loves the fact we *can* do scripts like that01:48
lcuk2but hate to see them relied on by others01:48
DocScrutinizerkerio: exactly my point01:48
DocScrutinizerkerio: roots is as well01:48
nox-kerio, yeah just like ubuntu as i said :)01:48
lcuk2DocScrutinizer, really?01:48
Dantonicty DocScrutinizer I wrote that down... gtg now ttyl everyone01:49
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lcuk2if you give user the physical device anyway its game over01:49
nox-yeah rootsh also doesnt ask for pw01:49
DocScrutinizerbut giving malware uncontrolled access to root via a compromised user account is a different thing01:49
DocScrutinizerlcuk2: ^^^01:50
kerionox-: ubuntu asks for a password01:50
nox-mm ok01:50
kerioi still don't get why passwording the user account results in a bootloop01:50
lcuk2so how to implement the ubuntu like01:50
kerioi mean, i can figure why01:50
skyscraperis there any malware trojan etc for n900 already?01:50
keriobut COME ON, it's ridiculous01:50
DocScrutinizerkerio:  root; echo -e "Defaults targetpw\nuser     ALL = (ALL) ALL" >/etc/sudoers.d/dantonic_special01:50
lcuk2ask once in 5mins approach01:50
kerioyou should allow for it01:50
luke-jrskyscraper: maybe ;)01:50
DocScrutinizerlcuk2: ^^^01:51
lcuk2pointing to some mystic runes does not explain01:51
DocScrutinizerkerio:  root; echo -e "Defaults targetpw\nuser     ALL = (ALL) PASSWD: ALL" >/etc/sudoers.d/dantonic_special; #if you like it explicit01:51
lcuk2is the functionality already built in?01:51
lcuk2but just needs enabling with that incantation?01:51
keriolcuk2: huh?01:52
kerioDocScrutinizer: you also need to run update-sudoers01:52
luke-jrok fine I admit it01:52
skyscraperanyone knows anything about "advanced power monitor"01:52
lcuk2ubuntu asks for root password if you havent entered it in last ~5minutes01:52
luke-jranyone who's updated their extras in the last month is now streaming me live webcam video and GPS coords01:52
DocScrutinizerduh? wtf is update-sudoers?01:52
DocScrutinizeraah, yep01:52
DocScrutinizerseems some noob didn't realize man sudoers01:53
DocScrutinizerThe #includedir directive can be used to create a sudo.d directory that the system package manager can drop01:53
DocScrutinizer       sudoers rules into as part of package installation.  For example, given:01:53
DocScrutinizer       #includedir /etc/sudoers.d01:53
skyscraper"advanced power monitor" from extras does nothing, only cpu 100%.... why?01:54
DocScrutinizertbh the config of sudo is on par with everything else on maemo :-S01:54
DocScrutinizerlike e.g01:54
infobotwell, optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs01:54
DocScrutinizerlcuk2: was that about runes and "is it implemented" to me?01:57
kerioDocScrutinizer: ssssh, don't spoil the fun01:58
* lcuk2 is wandering off for a shower01:58
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* DocScrutinizer as well :-D02:00
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* DocScrutinizer just points to concept of %wheel for a last rant, prior to shower02:01
* mortini removes DocScrutinizer from wheel02:01
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* skyscraper goes to bed - gn802:04
nox-gn8 skyscraper02:04
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* DocScrutinizer stares at /usr/sbin/update-sudoers, scratches head and wonders how's that gonna be smarter than #includedir /etc/sudoers.d02:20
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Mrleheyany nitdriod experts here? i cant get usb working :(02:33
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crashanddieMrlehey: #nitdroid and #nitdroid-help will probably be more useful02:41
Mrleheythanks crashanddie02:43
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kerionitdroid has usb host working? :o02:49
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Pincyhow can i use the usbhost app? is there anywhere an adapter to buy?02:51
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keriousb host still doesn't work02:56
kerioand yeah, you'll need an adaptor02:57
keriofemale usb A - female usb A02:57
kerioconnect standard cable, plug adapter02:57
keriousb port!02:57
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SpeedEvil1It does not yet work02:57
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kerioSpeedEvil: how would the autodetect of a usb device work?02:59
kerioi mean in theory02:59
keriowithout the hardware otg support02:59
kerioa button in the power menu that switches between device mode and host mode?02:59
kerio(also, what happens when two on-the-go devices connect togheter?)03:01
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luke-jrkerio: only one end of an OTG cable is configured as Host03:05
kerioluke-jr: oh, you need a particular cable?03:06
keriousb host mode ftfw then03:07
luke-jrkerio: USB always has a Host end and a Device end…03:07
luke-jrOTG cables are no different in this regard03:07
kerioluke-jr: female-to-female adaptors do exist03:08
kerioi just assumed you could use one of those to use OTG03:08
DocScrutinizermicro-A end with ID pin grounded (host side) <-> micro-B end (device)03:08
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crashanddiehow bad is it to be hitting on my bank manager?03:11
keriocrashanddie: what are you using to hit?03:11
kerioit depends03:12
kerioif it's sharp or heavy, it's bad03:12
mortinicrashanddie: she just wants your money.03:12
mortinior he.03:12
crashanddieactually, I'm thinking she wants more than just that03:12
mortiniunlike most people, though, she already knows you have it.03:12
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kerioshe wants your long and hard... loan03:13
mortinii went to open an bank account somewhere. the lady was so-so, and after they opened the account, they ran whatever and she all of a sudden was really flirty and nice with me.03:13
kerioalso post pics03:13
kerioboth of you03:13
DocScrutinizerkerio: 3rd table03:14
crashanddiekerio: well, I basically emailed her to try and buy her lunch tomorrow03:14
kerioDocScrutinizer: not that kind of pics03:14
mortinicrashanddie: good luck, man03:14
crashanddieI called her earlier today, and saw her as I had to swing by real quick, but well...03:15
crashanddiemortini: thing is... I have a girlfriend03:15
mortinioh, well.03:15
mortiniso, uhm, nevermind. crashanddie :P03:15
keriocrashanddie: you're a bad person03:15
crashanddieI'm trying to figure out whether what I'm doing is cheating or not03:15
crashanddiecuz, nothing happened, and nothing explicit has been said03:16
crashanddieit's not like I'm meeting up in a dodgy hotel for a 30 minute sex session03:16
mortinidies is a bit extreme, but it was tabbed.03:16
keriocrashanddie: are you happy with your girlfriend?03:16
crashanddiewell, yeah, but I don't see it going anywhere03:17
keriothen wtf are you doing03:17
mortinikerio: <- a picture03:17
keriothat's a nice pic03:17
crashanddiethe gf is a student, no idea what she wants in life, fucked up family, easily offended and very insecure03:17
kerioso you're not happy with her03:17
crashanddiewell, I like her03:18
kerioso you are happy03:18
crashanddieI dunno03:18
crashanddiethis one is a bank manager at age 28, has the most beautiful eyes I've seen in a long time, definitely knows what she wants and where she's headed, shares a shitload of hobbies with me, isn't quite as insecure, and seems to have a normal family03:19
kerioit's up to you, really03:19
keriojust don't try this thing with the bank manager before clearing up things with your current gf03:20
kerioit's being an asshole03:20
crashanddiething is... my gf is my sister's flatmate, and my mum's kind of adopted her03:20
crashanddienha mate, I'm not such a dick03:20
crashanddieI want to see her again, see if she was just flirting with me so I would sign up for the credit card while eyeing her cleavage or if she's really interested03:21
crashanddieand beautiful at that03:21
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SkyscraperN900MohammadAG51 no new ubuntu upload this night anymore?05:46
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SkyscraperN900hm nothing new on the space ;(05:49
SkyscraperN900hm. i go to bed.... byebye05:49
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DocScrutinizermaybe nothing new, but a nice ISS flyby at -3.5 magnitude05:52
DocScrutinizerand N900 comes in handy to watch
* DocScrutinizer wonders if the've seen the green "ground control to major tom"05:55
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DocScrutinizermoin raster06:04
mortiniraster smells like poo!06:05
* raster flings poo @ mortini 06:05
rasterDocScrutinizer:  boo06:05
* mortini ducks.06:06
* mortini whips out umbrella.06:06
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mortiniPEW PEW!06:08
mortiniraster: can you give me a window manager with more LASER BEAMS? i've been looking for one.06:08
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DoctorWaves535nm, 0.15W is *lame*06:10
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DoctorWavesISS will never notice :-S06:10
mortiniraster: preferably with sharks, too.06:10
DoctorWavessharks don't fit06:11
mortinithey make room!06:11
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* DocScrutinizer shoots a tiny hole into mortini's trousers with that 0.15W 535nm laser06:13
mortiniDocScrutinizer: oobaby. you tease.06:14
* b-man|laptop yawns06:15
mortinii'm out of vodka.06:15
mortiniit sucks.06:15
mortiniI have some tequila, but not sure i'm man enough to drink it.06:16
dmj726_develWho maintains the Pidgin port?06:17
rastermortini: sorry. my poo flinging monkeys ate all my spare sharks06:17
mortiniraster: jerk :(06:17
mortiniraster: jerk monkeys :(06:18
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* DocScrutinizer yawns06:20
mortiniDocScrutinizer: what TZ do you live in?06:21
DocScrutinizermy very own06:21
mortiniseems so :)06:21
mortiniraster: my memory is cloudy, did you used to hang out on #slashdot on the slashdot net in, uh, like '97/98?06:22
luke-jrhas anyone tried to put their N900 inside a N810 shell?06:22
DocScrutinizerI'd say Pacific American06:22
DocScrutinizershell, like ???06:22
mortiniDocScrutinizer: just curious, because you seem to have somewhat similar active ranges as me.06:23
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: the externals :P06:23
luke-jrespecially screen & kb06:23
* luke-jr wonders if the LCD cable is the same06:24
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: sorry still don't get it - there's been a pouch coming with N81006:24
b-man|laptopi'd be doubtful06:24
mortiniugh. tequila.06:24
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: putting the N900 board into a N81006:24
DocScrutinizerno way06:24
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luke-jrwell, I'd remove the N810 board obviously06:25
DocScrutinizerLCD main FPC won't fit06:25
luke-jroh well06:25
luke-jrNokia's N9 keyboard thing looks a LITTLE saner at least06:26
luke-jrbut still only 3 rows…06:26
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DocScrutinizercompare and
* b-man|laptop thought he saw 4, unless you exclude the spacebar, sym, ctrl, and directional keys06:27
DocScrutinizerwtf N9?06:27
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: honestly, those look the same to me…06:27
DocScrutinizermaybe they look same to you, but I'm not sure they are. Had to check to make absolutely sure06:28
rastermortini: god,. maybe. my memory would be hazy on that so far back06:29
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: not sure they are, or are sure they're not?06:29
DocScrutinizerthey *could* be compatible, at least from walking down all the interfaces that go to N81/900 screen half06:29
luke-jrb-man|laptop: my bad, they DO have 406:30
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luke-jrDocScrutinizer: Nokia N9:
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mortiniraster: haha. yeah. I have memories of you and mandrake in that era, not sure if you hung out in #slashdot or if it was just in my mind.06:31
luke-jr has internal pic06:32
rastermortini: i am sure i hung out on some irc06:32
DocScrutinizersuch a nice design, and still so fscked up06:32
rasterit may have been efnet06:32
luke-jrbut not of the connector06:32
rasteri may have been on #slashdot06:32
rasterbut too hazy06:32
mortinithose two aren't mutually exclusive :)yeah06:32
mortinier, sorry06:32
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DocScrutinizer  *W*T*F*!?! same crappy SMT USB receptacle, but even more monstrous plug??06:38
DocScrutinizerhave fun Nokia06:38
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DocScrutinizerhmm, no stylus - of course, for c-ts - no kbd backlight... Shiny but I guess I don't like it06:44
DocScrutinizerbat lid screwed on :-o06:44
DocScrutinizerwell, bat lid says "Proto B2" :-P06:44
b-man|laptopkeep in mind that this is also a prototype ;)06:45
DocScrutinizerthe final model might be made of cheese and have shape of a banana06:45
mortiniand the LUBE06:45
mortiniman, i like my n900 for a number of reasons, but i dislike it for a number of reasons, too :I06:45
DocScrutinizerbet its c06:46
b-man|laptopcaptive touchscreen06:46
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b-man|laptopDocScrutinizer: a banana phone! :D06:46
luke-jrc-ts would increase the need for them to ship a stylus IMO06:46
luke-jrsince you can't use just any old pointy object06:46
mortinib-man|laptop: ringringringringringringringringring06:46
mortinib-man|laptop: i have my hunches :)06:46
DocScrutinizerthere's no such thing like exactly a stylus for c-ts - there's wieners though06:47
DocScrutinizerlike the eraser top end of a pencil06:48
DocScrutinizerif you call that stylus, well then...06:48
DocScrutinizerwhatever you use, no use in 'pointy objects' as c-ts has much too low resolution and accuracy06:49
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DocScrutinizerthe way c-ts works you need a _touch_area_ of at least 7mm diameter, with usually opaque conducting material. No way to include such a "stylus" to N9 any reasonable way - and no use in it as well06:55
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DocScrutinizer  :-P06:56
DocScrutinizerbest ever stylus for c-ts06:57
DocScrutinizermaybe Nokia can ship N9 with mustard built in06:57
* DocScrutinizer wonders idly about the ~50k trolls filling up the assumed N9 thread on tmo, probably on page 756463 now - burrrp07:03
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DocScrutinizerOMFG - ...and the kbd mat seems to be dead flesh rubber07:29
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* Stskeeps yawns08:05
e-yestmo is down?08:10
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Stskeepsmorn DocScrutinizer08:35
DocScrutinizermorn Stskeeps08:36
DocScrutinizerpest control closed tmo? :-P08:36
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koala_manis it pulseaudio that allows switching audio from the speakers to the FM transmitter on the fly?08:37
* DocScrutinizer just musing over Project Coach-DEV0000001608:38
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DocScrutinizerkoala_man: yep08:40
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: anything relevant to you?08:42
DocScrutinizerfeels a bit less like a missmatch - compared to others there08:43
DocScrutinizerkoala_man: to be more specific, it's probably the policy engine and policy enforcement module that do those on-the-fly switches08:45
koala_manis that a maemo thing or a pulseaudio thing?08:45
DocScrutinizerkoala_man: might help a bit08:46
DocScrutinizeryour question however is hard to answer08:47
DocScrutinizerIf I had to pick ne, I'd say maemo thing08:48
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DocScrutinizertbh I probably have no clue, and best you look at source code of any app doing that switching. E.g. FMradio can switch, and afaik it's oss08:50
DocScrutinizeropen source software, not open sound system08:50
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* Stskeeps wonders if open source fundamentalists is just a bad a thing for open source as religious fundamentalists are for religion08:51
ieatlinti believe you set a default audio output device with the pulseaudio api08:51
ieatlintStskeeps: yes, although fewer people die08:51
koala_manStskeeps: religious fundamentalists are good for religion08:51
koala_manthey're the ones who are religious08:51
Stskeepsyes, but the aggressive ones? :P08:52
Stskeepslike, insisting others should follow their way08:52
koala_manthey're bad for peace and society, but good for religion08:52
DocScrutinizerand religion is good for... whom now?08:52
ieatlintthe pope08:52
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: you're thinking of RMS?08:52
ieatlintthat should be a swear word08:53
DocScrutinizerI had the plreasure to never meet him X-D08:53
ieatlintand yet i'm sure he's still left a scar on you08:54
DocScrutinizeryou bet08:54
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DocScrutinizerhad to learn his mantras by heart when I was responsible for choosing HW components that may come with firmware, like WLAN, BT, dunno what08:55
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: in this particular case, the reactions to not opening BME and in general, people not understanding that all nokia source starts out as closed source and what comes out of open sourcing process is untainted by patents, future copyright claims, etc..08:56
DocScrutinizer*nod* & *sigh*08:57
Stskeepsi have trouble with freedom fighting people that insist you must have freedom or have thrown tomatoes at you.. that's not freedom in my view08:58
DocScrutinizerI'd be half that concerned about closed BME if it came with proper 'API' doc08:58
Stskeepsdefine API doc08:58
* DocScrutinizer knew he'd ask that :-S :-P08:59
Stskeepswhat -is- happening, however, is that BME is going redistributable08:59
DocScrutinizerwell, first of all BME *has no* API. :-D08:59
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Stskeepsand i think it should be possible to get the BME communication protocol opened to some extent, as we need that in meego09:00
DocScrutinizersee, for a WLAN module you might have FW blobs or even kernel or userland closed drivers09:00
Stskeepsright, at least with kernel we keep that open09:01
DocScrutinizerbut you get a decent API specifying how to talk to the whole blackbox, and usually you'd also want a abstract explanation of how the blackbox works, at least to a degree so you understand what the API calls really are doing09:01
Stskeepswell, do you (honestly) need more than information gathering APIs?09:02
DocScrutinizerthen get a foss linux wrapper around the blob, so you can recompile for new kernels / systems09:03
DocScrutinizer(heh, I'm coaching again, don't I?)09:03
Stskeepsnah, constructive conversation09:03
DocScrutinizersure, just had a peek at my stack ;-)09:04
DocScrutinizer( information gathering APIs) could you rephrase please?09:05
Stskeepswell, accessors not mutators09:05
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Stskeeps for instance09:05
odin_up already!  tis Saturday!09:06
DocScrutinizeryep, there's probably a lot inside there09:06
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Stskeepsi think what is really most important is that the blob is maintained.09:06
Stskeepsand problems with it noticed and dealth it.09:06
DocScrutinizerbut, for example, it's completely unclear how BME manages to have such crappy capacity guestimates, and also the picture at large isn't clear what bme actually does09:07
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Stskeepsokay, so, let's imagine you were a regular user/developer/perhaps image generator for meego in general09:08
Stskeepswhat matters to you in this case?09:08
Stskeeps1) the blob works09:08
DocScrutinizerwrt to e.g throttling clock and / or charge current on overtemp. How it deals with battery errors and special conditions, etc pp09:08
Stskeeps2) you can redistribute the blob without getting your pants sued off09:08
Stskeeps3) you can access information/get notifications on charging and battery state09:09
Stskeeps.. what else is there?09:09
DocScrutinizermhm, but you know (I know you know) BME needs to know about USB ENUM etc09:09
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DocScrutinizercharger detect09:09
Stskeepscharger detect is actually oss09:09
DocScrutinizera lot of shit outside BME primary domain09:10
DocScrutinizermoaning TermanaN90009:11
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e-yesStskeeps, is it possible to use BME API somehow... to receive async messages (about battery capacity changes, charging status) without polling?09:11
odin_I agree with the blob is ok with conditions such as that, document what it is, what is does and how to interact with it, minimize the blob part as much as possible by reducing the scope as far as possible09:12
Stskeepsodin_: 'what it does' is OK in high level abstractions? otherwise it might as well just be source code09:12
Stskeepse-yes: yes09:12
Stskeepse-yes: hopefully we'll see more of that code in meego09:12
odin_the maintenance aspect is about making sure it always conforms to the documentation (so both kernel / user-space and its API / interaction)09:13
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Stskeepse-yes: hald-addon-bme (real one) does it like that09:14
odin_yes if there is some IP inside it, that would not be documented, however the application should try to minimize all the stuff around that IP as much as possible like a wet-suit (i.e. reducing the scope) not huge monolithic blob with a tiny bit of IP09:14
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Stskeepswb DocScrutinizer, saw my latest url?09:14
DocScrutinizerthat's clearly USB-musb-core domain, and BME shouldn't rely on that or put special demand on it09:15
Stskeepsodin_: not disagreeing a layer would be nice09:15
DocScrutinizermmpf, friggin freenet servers09:15
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: well, USB transceiver09:15
DocScrutinizermompls, catching up in chanlog09:16
Stskeepsodin_: i think first off we need to get it redistributable but that's obviously never the end of the story09:17
Stskeepsas there'll be practical concerns, like, how to interface to get battery info in an open manner, etc09:17
odin_yes any progress in the right direction is welcomed, even if it is far from fantastic09:17
Stskeepswe don't like blobs in meego on n900, they're horribly impractical for us09:18
odin_I wonder if Trusted Execution can be wrapped up like this too?  I just see mobile malware being a problem and I guess Intel will soon (within the next 3 years) have an open offering09:18
DocScrutinizerodin_: I fail to see how the whole "TP" / TE concept will help on that09:20
odin_DocScrutinizer, did not read my reply on that topic before, why is DRM good reply09:20
Stskeepsodin_: afaik AEGIS will be oss09:20
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odin_well those questions can be asked later anyhow, its too early on that right now09:21
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DocScrutinizersure there are several techniques to block some malware from infecting a executable or even the kernel, but all those are around for quite some time, and TPM / DRM isn't anything that'd give a new leverage to the problem, except when restricting user's rights09:23
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: freerunner had a 3d chip or how was it?09:23
DocScrutinizerglamo was a errr... 2.5D chip09:24
Stskeepshow was licensing?09:24
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DocScrutinizereven affiliated personal wasn't allowed to see the 1500p docs09:25
Stskeepsi think landscape is slowly changing atm at least, i mean, personally i'm happy to have redistributable SGX libraries09:25
Stskeepsi don't care much for the source09:25
DocScrutinizersure, as long as they behave09:26
Stskeepsi kinda like that there's a shade of 'must be maintained or perish' feeling in meego09:27
Stskeepskinda like kernel mainline09:27
odin_well AMD have finally completed on their statement (re graphics card drivers) if the headline is true09:28
Stskeepsodin_: mm?09:28
odin_  "Open-Source 2D, 3D For ATI Radeon HD 5000 Series GPUs"09:29
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DocScrutinizerhrhrhrr, they finally managed to clean out all the benchmark cheating? :-P09:30
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odin_Shh!  it is called Intellectual Property....hmm... I wonder if BME makes your matter look bigger ?  OSS replacement bme_viagra ?09:31
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Stskeepsat least i'm happy to see that landscape is really changing. i mean, before meego announcement i wouldn't be forseen nokia kernel developers discussing bme interfaces publically in a irc channel along with redistributable powervr libraries from intel, or even n900 drivers getting upstreamed properly :)09:34
Stskeepsso there seems to be a will to change the status quo.09:34
odin_Woot to the Stskeeps cattle pod (aka Mer)09:35
Stskeepsi think part of it is that intel did not bend on that we have to follow upstream, easy to get lazy otherwise09:35
DocScrutinizerquite sensible notion on that, of those in charge to decide. In the end the maintenance is a never ending PITA09:35
odin_just need to wring out the SSSE3 matter properly at Intel now09:35
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: even for OSS it's a PITA09:35
e-yesStskeeps, Unable to find a source package for hald-addon-bme09:36
* RST38h yawns09:36
RST38hehlo all09:36
odin_have another hour in bed09:36
Stskeepse-yes: bingo09:37
odin_220-Hello RST38h, go back to bed\n220-LAZYMODE\n220-SLEEPNOW\n220 Have a nice day!09:38
Stskeepsodin_: i personally see the SSSE3 battle as lost cos application SDKs will build for SSSE3 by default.09:38
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odin_Hmm I don't, 1) there is still time to fix it, 2) I expect to be able to roll a complete MeeGo 1.1 (for i386/i686/n8x0) before release/summit09:40
DocScrutinizerwhat's that SSSE3 thing? why shouldn't it be used, or what else was it I didn't get?09:40
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RST38hSSSE3 is the streaming extensions to the SSE3 instruction set09:40
RST38hSSE3 is the Intel instruction set for floating point / pseudo parallel computations09:41
DocScrutinizerwhat's wrong with it?09:41
odin_the issue for me boils down to Intel choosing to make "i686" (uname -m) mean "i686 + SSSE3 support" which is not the same for desktop linux (or other distros)09:41
RST38hThe problem with SSSE3 is that it is fairly new and a lot of the current Intel hardware out there does not have it09:41
odin_the difference is that it will enable the use of additional instructions by GCC for General Purpose Code Generation, but those binaries will try to run on classic i686 desktop machines without any sign of obvious compatibility (and there is one)09:42
RST38hIn the meanwhile, I have been wondering if anyone with a bit of time and MaemoSDK handy could look at the icon rotation in the hildon-desktop?09:42
RST38hI can even TELL that guy what exactly has to be done09:43
odin_re the rolling a complete MeeGo 1.1 for i386/i686/n8x0, I am looking for someone with storage and bandwidth to host it (since I can't do that as well)09:43
odin_obviously Intel in the meego-dev list talked of who and how is going to support it, but thats a moot point, it shows they are not thinking correctly about how things work, they are thinking like a corporation releasing a product (and I don't blame them for that)09:45
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odin_anyhow this is #maemo09:46
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DocScrutinizernayhow that's what I felt all the time when diving into meego - or trying to do that09:54
DocScrutinizergot BW but no storage (repost, freenode server sucks)09:55
DocScrutinizer3 cheers to mgedmin for povbot09:56
odin_sure, thats something that can be worked out even at the last minute over the coming months, but I do see the problem addressed by "Who has control of the SDK" and do you use Intel's SDK but only run on SSSE3 or another SDK that allows you app to run everything and its the developers who are complaining users don't care09:56
Stskeepsodin_: i think they're actually making sense about 'who will support it and who will do it' as there's genuine resources and money involved. even ubuntu doesn't move forward without people getting donations or people spearheading/taking a shovel09:58
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Stskeepsit always bends down to that someone has to take a feature, be responsible to maintain it, and do the patch/work/whatever09:59
odin_this should trigger Intel to be responsible in the matter and deal with the problem in a mutually acceptable way, i.e. customers who buy MeeGo software but run it on i386 disto and it fails means bad press.  I support the notion of optimization but not the method/path chosen to do it09:59
Stskeepsapps sdk is a funny matter, agreed09:59
Stskeepsand i think it's entirely fair to say 'we're not going to stop you, but we don't have the resoruces to do it or we won't spend them on this project'09:59
odin_I think its fair too10:00
Stskeepshowever, default optflags in sdk is .. interesting10:00
RST38hStskeeps: You mean, it is a question of who will recompile Meego with a different compilation switch? :)10:00
StskeepsRST38h: and devote the build resources to it10:01
RST38hStskeeps: And that apparently requires a shitload of resources?10:01
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odin_I dont think so, to just roll the final release10:01
odin_also not every package needs to make it, but all those on any demo/download, all SDK/tools, etc.. so the experience is there for those users who are not yet ready to jump in with new hardware, I also realise that everyone in 5 years will have SSSE3 hardware but that is not the point10:03
StskeepsRST38h: it does take a while10:03
StskeepsRST38h: if you have to track every weekly/daily10:05
RST38hbut if you do not?10:05
odin_no just releases (that make it out of :Unstable)10:05
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slonopotamusokaaay. my second n900 usb connector starts to die10:07
DocScrutinizerodin_: aiui meego will fail on systems without SSSE3, with SIGILL?10:07
slonopotamusboth survived ~5 months10:08
odin_any application will fail terminally when the program executes an unknown instruction, ali in #meego was reporting on exactly which i686 MeeGo binaries use SSSE3 and the results indicate only glibc uses it10:10
RST38hWell, there is a way around it10:11
DocScrutinizerslonopotamus: that's odd. It seems to be somewhat dependant on usage patern rather than particularly faulty build. Let alone the USB receptacle and plug design is flawed fundamentally10:11
odin_but the talk from Intel employees (on meego-dev) of massive performance boosts, but.. I think they confused -mtune (sets the instruction scheduling order to match CPU pipelines and branch prediction etc...) with -march (sets the Instruction Set Architecture), no one is saying don't -mtune the complaint is about -march10:11
slonopotamusDocScrutinizer: it didn't fall of yet, but gets/loses contact10:12
DocScrutinizerthe problem with USB is it's way too simple to apply bending force to the recepacle via the long plug lever10:13
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DocScrutinizere.g. when device drops, or when placed on flexible base like bed or sofa, and then even minimally pushing down the device10:14
slonopotamusDocScrutinizer: i didn't find any anti-fall devices in n900 box :/10:15
DocScrutinizereven when plug/unplug in a "careless" manner10:15
slonopotamusi do not plug/unplug it any way different i plug/unplug other things10:15
DocScrutinizerslonopotamus: well, that's the problem maybe10:17
DocScrutinizersure it's Nokia's problem10:17
slonopotamusbtw, n8x0 had other problem. if it fell with charger plugged, with very high chance it broke thin thingie that is plugged into charge hole on tablet. luckily, new chargers for n8x0 are just $3 here10:18
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slonopotamusmaybe $510:18
DocScrutinizerbut nevertheless, it's an explanation why devices tend to fail in numbers with one user, and don't with another user10:18
DocScrutinizerslonopotamus: (N810) *nod*10:19
DocScrutinizerslonopotamus: my charger plug is like 45° :-D10:19
slonopotamushaha :) one of mine too10:19
slonopotamusand 2 broken10:19
DocScrutinizerone of my N900 chargers is broken. Just stopped working... *shrug*10:20
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* slonopotamus considers taking n900 to repair service, replacing usb connector again and selling it away10:21
RST38hslono: Getting an android?10:21
* RST38h hides10:21
slonopotamusRST38h: maybe :P how long n900 warranty is? i need to catch the moment when _next_ usb breakage will happen after it ends :)10:22
nid0in eu, its 2 years10:22
RST38hslono: 1 year afaik10:23
RST38hslono: Well once it ends, you go to Savelka or something and ask them to not just resolder it, but cover the whole freaking thing with epoxy10:23
jacekowskihow do i check what's wrong with sip on my phone?10:26
slonopotamusRST38h: hmm... one year will come soon (november)10:26
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keriois the fix of the usb connector something nokia care does right there?10:43
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kerioor is it substitution-worthy at least?10:43
nid0afaik neither, its generally a send it away and solder on a new one10:44
keriohow much do they take?10:44
keriotime-wise, i mean10:44
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slonopotamuskerio: when my first one broke, they just replaced whole motherboard10:58
psycho_oreoswhich still has the connectors soldered on?10:59
ieatlinti'm sure11:01
ieatlintsomething that could be repaired by hand probably11:02
ieatlintbreaks your warranty, but still i guess good once warranties run up11:02
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JaffaMorning, all11:04
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marmoutesorry wrong window11:09
ieatlinti'm sorry too11:10
keriodo they ever substitute right there?11:11
kerioi really can't live without my n900 anymore :(11:11
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slonopotamuspsycho_oreos: sure. second one is about to break too11:23
psycho_oreosslonopotamus, *shakes head* makes you wonder why wouldn't they bother to secure it firmly knowing that this device will be subjected to various wear-and-tear throughout the life of the device by its owners11:24
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TermanaN900Some people must be using their n900s too hard11:35
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TermanaN900Im pretty rough with mine and its not breaking. Although slider and lock slider seems less stiff11:36
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DocScrutinizernew main PCB have USB rcptcl glued on I heard11:39
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DocScrutinizerthey're pretty much out of luck until they manage to use spring contact USB, like AV receptacle, which is mounted to case instead of PCB11:41
slonopotamusDocScrutinizer: "new"?11:45
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jacekowskiwell breaking dock connectors were common with pda's not so long ago11:47
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slonopotamusjacekowski: really? i have palm V since ~2001 and it still perfectly works11:52
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infobotslonopotamus meant: jacekowski: really? i have palm m500 since ~2001 and it still perfectly works11:52
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ieatlintand what kind of connector does it have?11:55
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ieatlintnokia basically fucked up.. although if it's just popping off the connector and not hurting the traces, it *should* be a simple fix anyone with basic soldering skills could do11:56
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slonopotamusieatlint: it has a cradle11:57
ieatlinti think there is something a tad funny that microusb was made because miniusb wasn't durable enough, and here it's proving unreliable11:59
slonopotamusieatlint: it's just put on a cradle and touches pins11:59
ieatlintslonopotamus: so not entirely like the old nokia connector... proprietary11:59
ieatlintalthough offering more features11:59
slonopotamusieatlint: those days everyone made own connectors11:59
slonopotamusminiusb is too narrow. microusb is too thin :)12:00
ieatlintindeed, and that predated miniusb even :P12:00
nid0and, miniusb *isnt* durable enough. microusb being more durable has nothing to do with the whole connector falling off because the way it's secured to the device is bad12:00
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ieatlintnid0: indeed12:00
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ieatlinti'm just saying that it's funny that the connector is failing (because of the way it was attached)12:01
nid0bring back the days of nice straightforward jack charging ports with no surround to rip off tbh :(12:01
ieatlinti disagree... the flaw is just how the connector is attached, microusb is awesome in general12:02
slonopotamusieatlint: piece of plastic and metal can't be "awesome" :)12:02
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ieatlinti can buy generic cables or borrow one from a friend with an entirely different phone12:02
ieatlintsure it can, you just haven't seen enough sex toys12:03
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DocScrutinizer51well, on people.openmoko.orh/joerg/n900 I found on close inspection that the 4 support posts holding the microUSB were not exactly what I'd call decent solder joints12:06
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DocScrutinizer51reflow problem I guess12:07
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DocScrutinizer51or maybe that component isn't reflowable and needs manual soldering, that often fails due to the underpaid untrained workers in china fabs12:09
keriowill i get an instant replace with a broken red led, a broken usb port, two lighter spots on the screen, a broken internal battery, a mildly scratched screen and a kinda ruined chassis?12:13
TermanaN900kerio, wtf have you been doing to it!?12:15
flashnwear and tear12:15
keriowho, me?12:16
kerioi did nothing! it was pre-broken12:16
keriototally nokia's fault12:16
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TermanaN900kerio, and im the friggin pope!12:17
keriooh hi Your Holiness12:17
TermanaN900No, really, i am. Praise be to me12:17
AdeonI'm an ancient chinese emperor12:18
kerioshut up, you're Xom12:18
keriodon't lie12:18
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kerioTermanaN900: internal battery, screen and usb connector are actually not my fault12:21
keriothe red led was mia when i bought it12:21
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Stskeepswazd: you're coming to ireland? P12:22
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wazdStskeeps: well, I hope :D12:26
wazdStskeeps: even if nokia wouldn't be kind enough - I have a place to stay there :P12:27
Stskeepsthe hotel rates are sure peppery12:27
Stskeepsif called discounted..12:27
wazdStskeeps: yeah12:27
wazdStskeeps: 130 euros, like, omfg12:28
Stskeepsi thought the scottish were the cheapos12:28
wazdnot too far from Moscow rates :)12:28
Stskeepsbut if you do show up, i think i owe you some drinks or whatever :P12:28
wazdStskeeps: hehe, I think I owe you :P12:29
wazdStskeeps: let's owe each other some beers :D12:29
Stskeepsexcellent, we both get drunk12:29
wazdStskeeps: isn't it the main point of the conference? :D12:30
Stskeepsthat and networking12:30
wazdStskeeps: aaah, sure, networking :D12:32
TermanaN900networking a.k.a exchanging beers12:32
wazdTermanaN900: +1 :D12:32
kerioBTP - Beer Transfer Protocol12:33
wazdStskeeps: anyway, we'll try to make something cool with OMWeather for MeeGo :)12:33
wazdkerio: Beer Exchange Server :P12:33
Stskeepswazd: i sometimes wish i had a Mer theme for MeeGo, that wasn't tied to the meego trademark12:33
keriowazd: beerd12:33
wazdStskeeps: I'll try to make something asap :) Currently too much everything for 2 hands :)12:34
Stskeepswazd: hehe12:34
* Jaffa 's looking forward to the conference now, since he won't be able to make Nokia World (Monday/Tuesday is a prospect in-depth architecture overview; and Wednesday has our Swedish client coming over for the day)12:34
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TermanaN900I wonder weather i could get sponsored for a propsal to talk about the implementation of BTP with a BES backend on MeeGo12:34
keriowazd: and lightbeerd that only serves non-alcoholic beer12:35
Stskeepswazd: you should propose a talk on artwork12:35
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wazdStskeeps: I'm not sure if I'll be able to perform that much without alco-stimulation :) I'm really shy person IRL :D12:36
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Stskeepswazd: pft, we know you're the next steve jobs12:37
Stskeepsand being drunk in ireland while presenting is normal12:37
wazdStskeeps: ah, then it's ok :D12:37
TermanaN900Stskeeps, wazd wears the same clothes everytime he presents?12:37
StskeepsTermanaN900: ah, good point12:37
wazdTermanaN900: last time I was presenting something, I actually was wearing turtleneck, jeans and glasses :D12:38
wazdTermanaN900: I don't know how that happened :D12:39
pupniki hope to use N9 oled screen as a white on black terminal much of the time, thus consuming little energy12:42
pigeonis it possible to compiletely disable auto software update check?12:42
wazdStskeeps: maybe your idea bout talk is not that bad actually :)12:43
Stskeepswazd: i mean, you do have a lot of merit12:44
wazdStskeeps: well, merit means nothing when you have nothing to say :D12:45
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Stskeepsyou have art12:45
wazdStskeeps: :)12:45
wazdStskeeps: how long should it be?12:45
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StskeepsPreferred session duration (default is 30 minutes, but we'll entertain other requests where possible)12:46
Stskeepsor lightning talk12:46
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wazdStskeeps: well, lightning is about 5 minutes, that's not enough :( And 30 minutes is kinds too much :D12:47
wazdStskeeps: kinda*12:47
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Stskeepscould always do a double talk12:49
wazdStskeeps: цуддб Ш рфму 1 ьщку вфн ещ здфт Ш пгуыы Ж)12:50
wazdWell, I have one more day to plan I guess :)12:50
wazdthat was main thesis for my talk btw :D12:50
TermanaN900im not sure  цуддб Ш рфму 1 ьщку вфн ещ здфт Ш пгуыы Ж) fuck - is a valid proposal12:51
wazdTermanaN900: awww :(12:51
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pigeonchanging /apps/hildon/update-notifier/check_interval doesn't work btw.12:55
keriopigeon: wfm12:56
pigeonit may have worked for the check interval, but everytime i reboot, it does the check again.12:57
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ebzzryHi! Is there a way to dump Conversation logs?12:58
ebzzryNvm. I found it.13:01
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BCMMis there any way to change the layout of the onscreen dialling pad in the phone app? i use a calculator a lot and can touchtype on a computer numpad, so the phone/ATM-style number layout is a little annoying for me14:04
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pupnikneat idea BCMM14:15
delirusDoes the package manager in maemo keep data about repositories in MyDocs?14:15
delirusbecause I backed up before formatting MyDocs.... but apparently scp didn't back up the dot-folders :\14:16
delirusand now I have no repos, and can't add repos14:16
Jaffadelirus: No, HAM meta data is in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ and another XML file somewhere (possibly under /home/user/.osso/application-manager IRC)14:17
infobotJaffa meant: delirus: No, HAM meta data is in /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ and another XML file somewhere (possibly under /home/user/.osso/application-manager IIRC)14:18
jacekowskiWell, lucky for us there’s nothing to stop a good brain coupled with the power of IDA Pro from doing what one may please.14:18
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jacekowskiwhy somebody assumes that i was using ida pro for that?14:18
delirusafter a re-partition, why would the package manager suddenly malfunction like this?  I go to the dialog to add a repository, and the repository simply doesn't show up.14:19
delirusEverything else is working 100%14:19
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delirusthis might help:  synaptic says "unable to lock the administration directory (/var/lib/dpkg/) is anothoer process using it?"14:22
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delirus(the graphical package manager is closed btw)14:23
RST38hAnyone knows how I can check download statistics for each repository?14:23
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delirus'app manager' is still broken, but I got synaptic working14:28
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jacekowskiyou can have only one package manager running14:35
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delirusI know....14:36
deliruseven when only one was running, neither would work14:37
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deliruson a fresh reboot, app manager's repos are blank14:39
delirusbut synaptic seems healthy if I delete the lock file14:39
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skyscraperme again14:48
skyscraperdoes anyone know why setxkbmap doesnt work in maemo ? -.-14:49
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RST38hHehe, now those "community affairs" are starting to look really rotten14:50
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lcukRST38h, what do you mean14:56
RST38hlcuk: + another thread by our friend Flandry on stricter rules for t.m.o14:57
SpeedEvilpupnik: err - how can people be commenting about themegapixels of a 640*480 or so pic14:58
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pupnik   SpeedEvil but this is pretty nice15:01
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toresbeHello folks :)15:05
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toresbeI really love the way the N900 does contacts; the ability to integrate IM accounts and telephone accounts is pure genius.15:06
toresbeHowever, the contacts list is really slow. Really, really slow.15:06
SpeedEvilpupnik: unfortunately overcompressed15:07
toresbeI'm sure it'd be faster if I merged some of my contacts, I suspect I have a high degree of duplication. However, merging is also painfully glacial.15:07
lcukpupnik, the n8 is a really nice device I will give you that!15:07
toresbeIs there a way to optimize either of the two?15:07
lcukhow is it for all the linux games you have15:07
lcukcan you do the same sort  of conversions and ports as you spent so long doing?15:08
psycho_oreoslol n8.. another symbian junk15:08
toresbeFor example, a desktop-based application to deal with my contacts list would probably save me a bit of time.15:08
lcukpsycho_oreos, its actually looking really really nice15:08
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lcukbut the symbian phone I am personally REALLY interested in is the X3-215:09
lcuktouch and talk is uber cool15:09
toresbeor some kind of clever "hey, this contact sure looks like that other contact, should I merge them?" app15:09
RST38hlcuk: But...mmm...why?15:09
psycho_oreoslcuk, looking nice != the functionality that linux can offer15:09
lcukand a novel nice simple usable upgrade to a normal phone15:09
lcukRST38h, because my son has an X3 and he drooled when he saw it15:09
psycho_oreosmy younger brother has x6 16gb, me jealous? not one bit15:10
lcukand 15year olds liking the look of something is win in my book15:10
toresbeanother thing that frustrates me is receiving a telephone call15:11
toresbethe device will be unresponsive for a significant amount of time15:11
toresbeespecially if I turn it around (like when I take it out of my pocket) it will spend several agonizing seconds rendering the rotate back and forth15:12
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toresbesometimes it seems to randomly shift the accept/decline buttons as a part of this leading to my accidentally declining phone calls15:12
toresbeI'm guessing this ties into the contacts slowness?15:13
lcukno toresbe different issue15:13
toresbeI love my N900 but it drives me up the farging wall sometimes.15:14
lcukthe phone call shifting is fixed afaik15:14
toresbeGoodie. Can I update to something that isn't so maddening yet?15:14
lcukok RST38h posted my own thoughts in those ranting threads15:15
toresbeOh, and the inability to play the first few seconds of an MP3 also sucks. When going from gPodder and into Media Player the thing will still be swamped enough that it'll fail to play the MP3.15:15
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toresbeI'll just hear stuttering the first 10-15 seconds.15:15
toresbeEven the battery warning stutters.15:16
psycho_oreosprobably some process is hogging up cpu process15:16
toresbeWow, that turned into a rant pretty fast.15:16
lcukpsycho_oreos, linux can look good by the way15:16
* lcuk doesn't mind rants15:17
lcuki prefer action ontop of them15:17
lcukso follow up and talk with thp about gpodder and whether hes noticed things15:17
psycho_oreoslcuk, I didn't mean linux has to look good to beat symbian, I would have ditched my n900 for n8 had my n95 done the things I want it to do and not to give me crap15:17
toresbethp: Thanks for writing gPodder. It's excellent.15:18
lcuksince he wrote it and uses it he might have some great ideas and insight into the actual issue that can be passed onto devs to help cure15:18
toresbeI just get the feeling that someone should be doing some serious profiling of the whole environment.15:18
lcukserious profiling requires serious skill to see the results and be able to pick out and act on them15:18
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toresbeI mean, iPhone runs on the same architecture. And that's really snappy. When I'm fiddling with maemo I kind of get that feeling that I'm on a 486 running Windows 95.15:19
lcukand I know some extremely decent developers have been looking at many areas15:19
lcuktoresbe, thats because the n900 is a full complete x11 stack and does things differently15:19
psycho_oreosiphone runs on a different kernel and lacks functionality where n900 has with a proper full blown linux15:19
toresbebut it's still doing the same things, in roughly the same environment.15:20
lcukiphone ui is a completely different much shorter subsystem with none of the complexity15:20
lcuktoresbe, the n900 can do those things too15:20
toresbeiOS _is_ a full Unix kernel. OK, it takes some shortcuts in the UI stack perhaps, i don't know. Still shouldn't affect performance inordinately.15:21
lcukkernel != rendering layer15:21
toresbesure, but the sluggishness that I am experiencing isn't due to graphics.15:22
lcukgraphics pipeline has a lot to do with it15:22
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lcukand the toolkit etc15:22
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lcukif you have to pass the data for a single line on a list through many layers15:22
psycho_oreosit is probably partially due to the fancy look and feel with all those compiz like affects15:22
lcukits not going to be as fluid as if it just draws it onto the surface directly15:23
toresbeI just did a test, and measured 7 seconds from opening the camera lid of an idle phone to the camera appearing.15:23
lcuk1 second here15:23
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lcukafter picking up my phone after seeing your comment15:23
toresbeMaybe I should reflash, then...15:23
lcuksomething is eating lots of cpu on your device15:23
toresbenah, the CPU is idle.15:23
lcukback up first15:23
psycho_oreoswhich firmware version are you running?15:24
toresbeRAM is another story...15:24
psycho_oreosyeah both :) it took me 3 seconds15:24
lcukI have pr1.2 on one device15:24
lcukand not pr1.2 on the other15:24
toresbe232784K used, 12156K free15:24
nid0im at about 2-3 seconds from opening lens cover to camera image showing15:25
psycho_oreosthe one on pr1.2 has the one second delay from opening lens cover to camera?15:25
lcuktry closing and reopening15:25
lcukis it faster?15:25
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toresbelcuk: much, around two seconds15:25
lcukpsycho_oreos, they both do on mine15:25
nid0yeah second time goes much quicker, always has15:25
psycho_oreosone second less, still two seconds15:25
psycho_oreostoresbe, how long has your n900 been on for?15:26
nid0prolly about a second when repeating it for me15:26
toresbepsycho_oreos: I reset it occasionally.15:26
toresbecurrent uptime is 2 days15:26
lcukok i just videod it15:27
lcukhold on will upload15:27
psycho_oreostoresbe, by that time I would have expected some minor lags to occur, when it runs for 4 days uptime, even when trying to stop the alarm will take about 5 seconds.. that's when I reboot the device15:27
nid0what are you doing to your device that kills it in 4 days?15:27
Khertanhum ...15:28
Khertanyou have some bad things installed on it15:28
psycho_oreosalarms and widgets? :)15:28
toresbei'm seriously considering changing over to android by now15:28
Khertanit s took less than 1s on my n900 to open camera soft15:28
toresbethis is just maddening15:28
Khertantoresbe, lol good luck15:28
toresbe(not on the n900, but on a different phone)15:28
toresbeI'll really miss the KB though.15:28
psycho_oreostoresbe, enjoy the restricted freedom, similarly to having iphone15:28
Khertangood luck with android15:29
toresbePhysically the N900 is a fantastic phone.15:29
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toresbepsycho_oreos: In what regard?15:29
Khertantoresbe, software is amazing too !15:29
toresbeKhertan: No, it's shit, that's the problem15:29
Khertantoresbe, LOL15:29
Khertanit s shit ... of course ... yeah15:29
Khertanend of discussion15:29
lcukpsycho_oreos, toresbe :
psycho_oreostoresbe, no dual/multi booting, no root access without jailbreaking (like iphone) lack of raw level support on hardware.. most of the stuff runs ontop of java15:30
Khertango to bought an android phone and see you later in one month15:30
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nid0slloooowwww host lcuk or just me?15:30
toresbepsycho_oreos: well, I don't want two bad OSes, I want one good one. The restrictions are a bummer but I am actually willing to give a little of that freedom away in order to have a working telephone...15:31
lcuknid0, never noticed it before15:31
psycho_oreosI think there's more than one users getting the file :) I'm getting around 60K15:31
lcukits godaddy stuff15:31
Khertanpsycho_oreos, and worse ... no python on iphone :) not really well supported on android :)15:31
lcukmust just be you15:31
nid0took my machine like 40 seconds to buffer the video :(15:31
* lcuk just downloaded it from my side quickly15:31
lcukdifferent machine15:31
lcukyou guys have serious IT issues15:32
nid0nah, im happy just blaming godaddy :)15:32
Khertanhuum ... godaddy isn't really a good host depending where you live ... :)15:32
psycho_oreostoresbe, its a small sacrifice but *shrugs* do whatever you must, n900 wasn't meant to be a perfect phone, afterall its the very first NIT to feature phone capability and the software aspects are kinda half done15:32
lcukI tried to show clearly how I am opening the slider15:32
lcukso my finger starts in view15:33
lcukand you can see, its nowhere near 7 seconds15:33
psycho_oreosKhertan, heh I wouldn't want to ever consider iphone, considering how the latest pdf exploit patch is only fixed in iOS4 but would still cause grief for iphone 3g owners15:33
lcuk*I* would be shouting if it was15:33
Khertanlcuk, same as you less than one seconds with no apps running :)15:33
lcukthe n810 used to have a ~10second wait for front camer15:33
toresbepsycho_oreos: I don't require a perfect phone, I'd just like an acceptable one; currently my N900 isn't that way...15:33
Khertanlcuk, take more than 1 min with 40 search running with khweeteur ... :)15:34
lcuktoresbe, as you say, try a clear out and reflash15:34
psycho_oreoslcuk, yeah that's a very fast response, I guess I'll need to disable a few things.. lol I've been told to not leave r&d mode on15:34
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nid0has the obvious suggestion of reflashing and bloating it down a bit less after doing so been mentioned yet?15:34
lcukpsycho_oreos, why are you running r&d mode out of interest?15:34
lcuknid0, yes - toresbe said it himself15:34
lcukI am just showing the video to clarify15:35
toresbelcuk: I believe you :)15:35
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psycho_oreostoresbe, well mine is reasonably acceptable, sure it lacks features and what not but at least in hardware-wise and openness its by far lot better than its competitors, especially when it comes to having the advantage of a full blown linux running on it15:35
lcukI used to overwhelm my windows machine15:35
MohammadAG51i wonder what purging hildon-desktop and rebooting would do15:35
lcukI used to have to shut down EVERYTHING just to play mp3s15:35
psycho_oreoslcuk, for things you may laugh at :) I like the verbose bootup message and the keyboard led flashing15:35
lcukMohammadAG51, might do a lot15:35
toresbenid0: it really shouldn't be bloated as it is though, I don't use apps all that much...15:35
lcukpsycho_oreos, I don't laugh, it was a serious question15:36
lcukand I agree :)15:36
toresbeR&D mode, what does that do?15:36
lcukthe keyboard lights are something MohammadAG51 likes too, but for different reasons15:36
psycho_oreoslcuk, well yeah those were the things I liked to have enabled on normal mode (non r&d), I was told those were possible but I haven't looked into it15:36
lcukit doesnt exist15:36
lcukif you don't know, dont do it15:36
MohammadAG51lol lcuk15:37
lcukpsycho_oreos, so you have the visible bootlogging on startup?15:37
psycho_oreosr&d are only for noble NIT fans ;)15:37
lcukcos thats not an r&d thing is it?15:37
lcukpsycho_oreos, no it shouldnt be for fans at all15:37
toresbelcuk: I googled it and I will infact enable it. :)15:37
psycho_oreoslcuk, yeah the green words appearing all over Nokia screen with the little tool thing in the middle15:37
lcukit should be for people who have skills to fix problems themselves and not whinge in public channels15:38
MohammadAG51you need a framebuffer kernel to see kernel messages15:38
MohammadAG51psycho_oreos, you can remove the green text by patching /etc/preinit15:38
toresbelcuk: Heh. Fair enough. But I did _start_ off being reasonable. ;)15:38
lcukof course toresbe15:38
MohammadAG51installing multiboot does that15:38
lcukand I really hope we get the points you did mention cured15:38
toresbeit just really frustrates me because I _want_ to love my phone.15:39
lcukbecause you are not the only one mentioning them15:39
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* lcuk nods15:39
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psycho_oreosMohammadAG51, hmm interesting, I'm gonna have a look at how to enable framebuffer (I'm sure titan's power kernel has fb but I could be wrong) and enable all the fancy features I want from r&d so that I can disable r&d15:39
MohammadAG51it doesn't15:39
psycho_oreosbum :/15:39
MohammadAG51do you want a power40 framebuffer kernel?15:40
psycho_oreosI don't know what a power40 is :/15:40
MohammadAG51lol latest version15:40
MohammadAG51of kernel-power15:40
psycho_oreostitan's power kernel? o.O that should be in the repos shouldn't it? :)15:41
psycho_oreosunder extras-testing15:41
MohammadAG51not the framebuffer one15:41
lcuktoresbe, have a look at what additional bloat you can remove15:41
lcukand see if you can clean up your system in coming days without reflashing15:41
psycho_oreoshmm damn so it must be your own version heh :)15:41
lcukjust like anything else, keeping it full to the brim with everything can overload it15:41
MohammadAG51actually, i need it and i cba to do it, but if someone else would use i'll get off my arse and do it15:41
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psycho_oreosI'm personally am a bit conservative on testing lol, had I got enough money to acquire another n900 I'd love to trial it out15:43
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MohammadAG51lol flashing a kernel doesn't do anything bad15:45
MohammadAG51well.. assuming the kernel works15:45
lcukit doesn't do anything good either15:45
MohammadAG51ssh: connect to host port 22: Connection refused15:46
BCMMpsycho_oreos: most of the talk of "bricking" n900s refers to the sort of not-really-bricking that you can fix by reflashing from a PC15:46
psycho_oreosthat is exactly what I worry :) my n900 is on contract and I'm treating it as a main phone, if it gets constantly bricked, etc I would have missed lots of phone calls and probably end up in strife :)15:46
nid0"constantly bricked" = huge misnomer15:46
nid0you can by definition only brick a phone once15:46
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mavhkthere's bricking and there's bricking15:47
psycho_oreosBCMM, well yeah you can sort of unbrick it if you knew how but otherwise you need to re-setup various things again according to what to the ways and things you want.. yes I'm against the hacking of my own n900 for the time being I'm afraid.. I just don't want to spend too many countless hours trying to set everything right15:48
psycho_oreoswasn't there two ways of unbricking? one using PC and if its really bad, you go through the serial terminal or something?15:48
mavhkisn't that what the backup's for?15:49
MohammadAG51if you erase the first and second bootloader15:49
psycho_oreoswell the backups are far and large in between, it doesn't save all the debs you have installed for example15:49
MohammadAG51theoritically, you should be able to cold flash15:49
lcukpsycho_oreos, it installs the list of them15:49
MohammadAG51you'll need to specify the USB bus manually though15:49
lcukand the list of repositories15:49
nid0for anything that was installed via repos at least15:50
lcukand then bulk reinstalls them15:50
nid0any debs installed manually you'd need to save and re-do manually though15:50
nid0but there shouldnt exactly be a huge list of them15:50
lcukso if you installed from certified repositories - ie, you can reinstall15:50
psycho_oreoslcuk, o.O didn't knew about bulk reinstalling, I thought those would also take up lots of downloads as well15:50
nid0they do, they all get redownloaded15:50
nid0the system just does them all at once concurrently15:51
psycho_oreosand then there's stuff from ovi for example15:51
MohammadAG51downloads app, installs it, downloads next one and installs it etc15:51
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MohammadAG51though tbh, I would say downloading all then installing would be better15:51
nid0freeware from ovi will get reinstalled automatically afaik15:51
MohammadAG51which is why i use apt-get15:51
nid0its just paid stuff you need to manually redownload from "my stuff"15:51
psycho_oreosheh I haven't looked into that, I thought it would only install the list and the repos but wouldn't go through and get all the apps you previously had.. even then it still needs to grab datas from certified repos and what not.. in my case I haven't gone through all the certified repos15:52
nid0itll redownload apps installed from repos regardless of the repo it's in15:52
nid0assuming the repo is enabled on the device at the time you generate the backup15:53
psycho_oreosand the custom user hacks? like various edited/personalised conf files? :D15:54
lcukpsycho_oreos, :)15:54
nid0some will get retained, some wont15:54
lcuknope, hence my dislike for users doing mystical runes and incantations in the command line15:54
lcukonce a dev finds a reliable happy hack15:54
lcukit should be packaged and pushed15:54
lcukso that its reproducable15:55
nid0the backup will take backups of various config files, if your manual changes happen to be in those files youll get them backed up, if not you wont15:55
psycho_oreosdoing mystical runes and incantations? lol15:55
lcukpsycho_oreos, the command line is something ancient linux gods use15:55
lcukmy mum would never know what to do with it15:56
nid0manually-written transition effects are not saved for example, but afaik custom led patterns are15:56
psycho_oreosnid0, hmm yeah looks like I'll still need to back them up by hand15:56
lcukor package them for reproduction :P15:56
* SpeedEvil looks at his package for reproduction, then puts on underpants.15:56
psycho_oreoslcuk, lol wth, I spend a fair amount of time in linux cli :D I even have a shortcut on my `home' just to have direct access15:56
lcukpsycho_oreos, sure you do15:56
lcukbut don't you curse after you reinstall?15:57
SpeedEvillcuk: packaging is annoying for some.15:57
lcukits annoying for all15:57
psycho_oreoslcuk, *shrugs* I've edited the conky.conf file, edited the mmc-mount as well15:57
* lcuk was doing some packaging this last week15:57
SpeedEvillcuk: For example - I have slackware installed on my laptop. It just works. I don't want to fuck with it.15:57
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SpeedEvillcuk: How can I easily package srtuff on this - I haven't found a way.15:57
lcukpsycho_oreos, yes so after you reinstall you have to dig and find out what you did15:57
lcukand hope you do it right afterwards15:58
lcukSpeedEvil, a package file is fairly simple15:58
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psycho_oreoslcuk, well I was cursing because I wanted to try this other menu thingy instead of catorise which didn't work well and catorise fails to function.. even when I tried restoring the backup it restored the broken functionality of catorise which left me no choice but to manually re-do the whole setup again15:58
lcukthats the debian folder for maemo-optify-boottime15:58
lcukits got a few very simple files in it15:59
SpeedEvilSure - I haven't found any document that would explain how - say - I drop a 500 byte script in /usr/local/bin - make it depend on zenity - and insrtall it.15:59
lcukand copies scripts and does postinst stuff etc15:59
lcukjust take that and modify a bit15:59
lcukits not rocket science15:59
SpeedEvilHow do I then get that to the autobuilder?16:00
SpeedEviland into testing?16:00
lcukyou request rights from maemo.org16:00
lcukhold on16:00
lcukill dig the page16:00
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MohammadAG51flauta's scratchbox is now dead :(16:01
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SpeedEvilSo - request ssh key - prepare above files, and scp them?16:02
SpeedEviland then autobuilder kicks in when it notrices the dsc?16:02
SpeedEvilI don't have dput16:03
MohammadAG51install it16:03
lcukSpeedEvil, you can use the web interface16:03
MohammadAG51you don't need to add your ssh keys for that16:03
SpeedEviloh - right16:03
SpeedEvilI don't think there is a slackware package for dput16:04
SpeedEvilthis doesn't look impossible - thanks!16:04
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lcuk:) np16:05
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KhertanCode in Python, use pypackager ... use webinterface ;)16:21
Khertanor do your own repository ;)16:21
Khertanit s fast and easy16:21
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kerioandroid is a phone platform16:23
keriomaemo is a tablet platform16:23
keriomeego is a piece of crap16:23
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MohammadAG51the openness of meego isn't crap, the use of rpm in it...16:24
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keriomeego wants to do everything16:25
kerioit *will* fail16:25
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psycho_oreoslol the use of rpm is a sign of fail imo :)16:27
psycho_oreosI find it funny that meego uses the rpm which doesn't have all the fancy bits and pieces that deb has16:27
Khertanmeego ... in french look like same as megot (cigarrete butt)16:28
Khertanpsycho_oreos, in fact rpm as more fancy ... and more annoying things16:28
Khertanpsycho_oreos, the main problem of rpm is the lack of control16:29
Khertanbut this mainly depends in fact in the tool used to manage this rpm16:29
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psycho_oreosKhertan, to me its rpm lacking maturity, deb has got a proper frontend and some nice tools to work at various levels, rpm doesn't, its frontend came from yellow dog linux and it doesn't have a tool to mirror the repos except to use rsync which in meego's repo doesn't have rsync enabled16:30
Khertanand ... i ve'nt any motivation to enable the rpm package creation in pypackager16:33
thptoresbe: you're welcome :)16:33
Khertanpsycho_oreos, but at least ... there is a bdist_rpm in python setup tool :)16:33
lcukKhertan, do you still have your repos open from previous work on different OSes?16:34
lcukie, in a couple of years if people use your repository will the apps still work?16:34
lcukthis is one of the key things that addresses16:34
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Khertanlcuk, my previous repo isn't open anymore as before to close them X-Fade said me that maemo repository will be the answer :)=16:36
lcukI meant for your work on palm etc16:36
Khertanlcuk, for palm there isn't any repository16:36
lcukwhere did those apps go?16:37
Khertanbut there are still here16:37
lcukyou are dedicated then!16:37
lcukall too often the links become stale16:37
Khertanyep i know16:37
lcukand good solid apps for a platform drain away16:37
mikki-kunuhhhh, meego is using rpm for it's packages? Ö.ö16:38
Khertanand i hate that :)16:38
Khertanfor example kmeteo is still here ;)16:38
lcukheh cool16:38
Khertanon my webpage16:38
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Khertanall chinook and diablo apps are still in maemo repository16:38
Khertanand klauncher ... is still available somewhere ... :)16:39
psycho_oreosmikki-kun, yes16:39
lcukcool, and I know I am preaching to the choir with you :)16:39
lcukgah my ear feels funky16:39
mikki-kunou my... that is....16:39
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nid0...perfectly fine.16:40
Khertanlcuk, you make me think that i forgot to update some old apps on my new web site16:40
psycho_oreosKhertan && lcuk for chinook, are you guys able to syn source repos off repo fine?16:40
infobotpsycho_oreos meant: Khertan && lcuk for chinook, are you guys able to sync source repos off repo fine?16:40
Khertanwhat did you mean by sync ?16:41
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mikki-kunwell, i've heard from a couple of people rpm being the worst of them all16:41
nid0yeah, by people who are most familiar with debs16:41
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nid0rpm vs deb is as old as vi vs emacs16:42
nid0and just as pointless16:42
psycho_oreosKhertan, for example if you were to create a scratchbox env for chinook, when it comes to building stuff from chinook repo under do you guys get errors with something like Sources.tgz during compression?16:42
Khertanit s more a war or frontend tools and packaging policies than a real difference in the format16:42
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Khertanpsycho_oreos, didn't know ... i didn't use scratchbox :)16:43
psycho_oreosfor example, there's no apt-mirror equivalent for rpm repo16:43
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psycho_oreosKhertan, hmm bum :/ can't mirror the Sources.tgz from chinook part for some reason lol16:43
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psycho_oreosand rpm's frontend is yum, came from yellow dog linux, runs on python as opposed to deb's frontend being apt-get/aptitude which are made from C16:44
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Khertanand ? c isn't superiors to python ...16:45
Khertanused language isn't a markup of quality16:45
lcukit is16:45
Khertanlol lcuk16:45
lcukmost of python is written in c :P16:46
psycho_oreosC is a lower language compared to Python :)16:46
lcukor rather, without c, python would be slower than a dead slug16:46
johnsqpsycho_oreos: wrong python is an interpreter and c is a compiler16:46
lcukas it happens, its about the same speed as a slug16:46
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johnsqpsycho_oreos: you can't compate dogs with cats16:46
Khertanlcuk, hum ... without python you ll not use pygtkeditor to code in c on your maemo device :)16:46
lcukpython excells in binding16:46
lcukKhertan, without c, you wouldnt have pygtkeditor16:47
psycho_oreosjohnsq, you're wrong there, both Python and C are programming languages, but Python needs an interpreter, C requires a compiler16:47
lcukcos that component is c isn't it?16:47
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Khertanin the 2.x.x it s c ... in 3.x.x it s full python :)16:47
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Khertangtksourceview sucks with the maemo gtk style16:48
baraujopython can be compiled too, if you want... cython FTW :)16:48
johnsqpsycho_oreos: not correct, there is no strict border, but python is designed to be interpreted and c is designed to be compiled.16:48
Khertanlcuk, but khteditor rely on QSyntaxHilighter16:48
lcukahh, so you now use c++ :P16:48
lcukstill not all python really ;)16:48
psycho_oreosand yet there's has been _no_ answer for apt-mirror's equivalent to rpm16:48
Khertanindirectly as i use it from python ;)16:48
Khertanso i ll said 50%/50%16:49
psycho_oreosjohnsq, still it defines that both are programming languages and that C is still a lower level language compared to Python16:49
lcuk<lcuk> python excells in binding16:49
Khertanpsycho_oreos, wget :)16:49
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lcukits a glue language, like arexx and vbs16:49
KhertanOUCH !!! DO NOT COMPARE TO VBS !!!16:49
keriopython is a multipurpose language16:49
johnsqpsycho_oreos: no. from my side python is lower level.16:49
Khertanpython is the answer !16:50
lcukKhertan, vbs is one of the high points of microsoft strategy16:50
Khertan#import antigravity16:50
psycho_oreosKhertan, more like wget with some nasty hacks and hoping it'll work.. whereas normally a RHCE certified person would say stuff like rsync.. but alas rsync isn't available on meego repos16:50
keriopython is a very high level language that lets you drop to very low level16:50
kerioKhertan: #import is a comment ._.16:50
lcukif you underestimate it you missed a serious trick16:50
Khertanlcuk, yep the one that enable so many virus in the os16:50
lcukany language can be abused16:50
lcukit was open and extensible16:50
lcukthe issue was how it was started16:50
Khertanlcuk, yep but the problem of vbs isn't the language ... but the ms implementation16:51
lcukie, allowing running ANY code in an email16:51
psycho_oreosjohnsq, I still can't see how Python would be a lower level language than C :) if that were the case, where's the examples of drivers and kernel of OS being made in Python? :)16:51
lcukit doesnt matter the language in that respect16:51
lcukno Khertan its nothing to do with vbs itself16:51
Khertanlcuk, not really ... as vbs ... mean microsoft implementation :)16:51
keriopsycho_oreos: there's a os with a python kernel module for a fs, iirc16:51
lcukor the implementation directly16:51
johnsqpsycho_oreos: you can't compare them, that is my point.16:51
keriovbscript is ugly16:52
lcukpython *complements* well written tools and libraries16:52
psycho_oreosjohnsq, I wasn't comparing them on the programming side I'm comparing them in literal usages for frontend package management systems.. in which the cases were rpm vs deb16:52
keriovbs is a crappy scripting language imo16:52
Khertanlcuk, python is the answer ... c/c++ is the other when you need performances16:53
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psycho_oreoskerio, still not a full blown OS that would run straight from the machine code no? :D16:53
lcukkerio, read scrollback and dont just jump in16:53
* kerio jumps out16:53
lcukKhertan, nahh python isn't "the" answer16:53
lcukits a pathway16:53
johnsqpsycho_oreos: yes and python didn't belong in the runtime system16:53
* kerio jumps back in after confirming that he *has* read the scrollback16:54
keriopython is a kickass programming language for fast development and anything that doesn't require a lot of numbercrunching16:54
* lcuk slaps kerio 16:54
psycho_oreosjohnsq, no I never said they were (or rather, as I'm getting confused about some programming jargons) but I have yet to see any low level benefits of Python vs C16:54
kerioand if something requires it, you can just write that tiny portion in c16:54
lcukpsycho_oreos, strings16:55
lcukare a pain in the backend in c16:55
* lcuk adores printf though16:55
keriopy3k strings are pure unicode :316:55
keriolcuk: str.format is incredibly powerful16:55
* lcuk writes in many languages16:55
psycho_oreosI know for example C can also incorporate ASM language16:55
lcukand I still long for vb syntax sometimes16:56
keriopsycho_oreos: and python can also incorporate C16:56
johnsqpsycho_oreos: for package management your are config and dependencies parseing, there has python advantage, but you could use a small lib and do it in c16:56
kerioso yeah :D16:56
lcukif mystring like "some*thing" then16:56
keriolcuk: ew, blobs16:57
psycho_oreosjohnsq, that's if somebody did write yum in C for example :)16:57
keriogive me true regexps if you really must16:57
lcuki find it amusing that github identified liqbase-playground as being written in visual basic16:57
psycho_oreoskerio, but what about python incorporating ASM? :)16:57
keriopsycho_oreos: incorporate a c module with asm?16:57
kerioi thought that was the implied conclusion16:57
lcukbecause I happen to have some vb code in it16:57
johnsqpsycho_oreos: the problem is, when the package manager uses python code in the packages.16:57
Khertanbut apparently he didn't know how to do a singleton in python16:58
psycho_oreoskerio, probably not that that I've looked deeply into it.. funny how we've turned from debating about package management systems to bickering over programming languages16:58
Khertannot really a bad idea ... as a singleton is worse than a global in fact :)16:59
nid0I hope you've learned your lesson as to how futile and pointless arguments about packaging methods is!16:59
lcuk<nid0> I hope you've learned your lesson as to how futile and pointless arguments about * methods is!16:59
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nid0and arguments over text editorsd17:00
lcukhuh, hold on17:01
lcukemacs ftw17:01
Khertanand to close the debate ... a tutorial on how to package an apps for maemo :
nid0get out.17:01
KhertanKhtEditor FTW17:01
kerioanyway, python can do everything17:01
lcukKhertan, how does that close the debate17:01
kerio'nuff said17:01
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Khertanlcuk, i don t know :)17:01
lcuk<kerio> anyway, python can do everything [slowly]17:01
Khertanlcuk, i hope you click on the link read the text and forgot to come back to #maemo17:02
Khertanit s one way :)17:02
Khertanlcuk, c is really fast ... to segfault !17:02
keriolcuk: adding cpu is usually cheaper than making better code :)17:02
kerioand of course, the small part that actually require performance can be rewritten in C as needed17:03
Khertanpython is slow if you like a spain cow !17:03
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Khertanpython is slow if you code like a spain cow !17:03
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lcukkhertan I tried to use python to do a particle rendering system with gravity and stuff17:04
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Khertanand ?17:04
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keriolcuk: number crunching17:04
lcukand beyond 20 or so it got so uncontrolably slow :(17:04
Venemohey guys17:04
rasterkerio: entirely depends ... eg adding more cpu == making device 2x heavier because it needs a much fatter battery and now active cooling :)17:04
lcukmorning Venemo17:04
Khertanlol ... with sin, tan and cos everywhere ?17:04
rasteralso if you make 20,000,000 of a device17:04
keriotrigonometry everywhere in this bitch17:04
Khertanuse precalc table17:05
Venemolcuk: morning?17:05
psycho_oreosmaths wins17:05
Venemolcuk: what's the time there? :)17:05
rasterthe extra "$3/device" (or whatevrr) to get the speed boost adds up to a phenominally large cost where improving the software actually is a lot cheaper17:05
Khertanlook at vectormine ...17:05
lcukraster, hiya dude17:05
Khertansource code17:05
lcukhow are you goin17:05
rasterthe embedded world thanks to its severe limits and often massive volume production has a different range of economics there17:05
rasterlcuk: not too bad :)17:06
lcukraster, got something to show you, can you work out how its done:
rasterlcuk: thats kinda cool17:06
lcukif software bloat and code optimizations were taken seriously we would have devices that work for much longer17:07
lcukraster, it works nicely as a massive picture viewer17:07
rasterwe would17:07
lcuka set of 9 devices can show their own part of the same ui17:07
Venemolcuk: agreed about software bloat17:07
rasterthe prooblem is a human one17:07
raster95% of the software industry is incompetent17:07
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johnsqraster: *lol*17:08
rasterie - they lack even the most basic understanding of what they do and thus are simply incapable of optimising something17:08
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rasterthank god the % still exist and software is cheap to re-produce :)17:08
kerio95% of humans are incompetent17:08
rastererr the 5% still exist17:08
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lcukthank god compilers don't allow most typos through ;)17:09
rasterkerio: probably pretty true - but i cant really comment on that as i havent directly tried to evaluate them :)17:09
Venemokerio: what do you think, how many percent of the average people know what a browser is?17:09
rasterlcuk: indeed17:09
Venemokerio: with this in mind, that 95% could be an understatement17:10
kerioVenemo: hmm... 99.99999%?17:11
Venemokerio: watch the video17:11
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nid0well you're taking a very specific cross-section of stupidity there, 1) americans and 2) about geek stuffz17:11
nid0you're bound to get a stupidity rate indistinguishable from 100%17:12
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Venemokerio: actually, less than 8% of people actually knew what a browser is17:13
Stskeepsi think youtube comments are worse than tmo17:13
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lcuki think calling people who are interested enough to comment about something is the wrong approach personally17:15
GAN900Stskeeps, YouTube is the Internet ghetto.17:15
GAN900It's impossible to find less coherent comments.17:15
lcukthe intelligent thing is being able to cut through the comment text and find the reason for their post17:16
Khertan GAN900 skyblog plateform is worse17:16
jacekowskiraster: well, it's not only software industry17:17
jacekowskiraster: it's everywhere17:17
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SpeedEvilI have some experimental code that does that for youtube.17:17
GAN900lcuk, there usually isn't one.17:17
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SpeedEvilBut for every comment on the site, it simply returns 'EUSERASSHAT'.17:18
lcukGAN900, then you aren't looking hard enough17:18
lcukor ignoring the reason17:18
GAN900lcuk, clearly you have way too much time on your hands.17:18
lcukno I don't17:18
lcukI just know not to ignore feedback17:18
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lcukor dismiss the person giving it as stupid17:18
* GAN900 also suspects anti-depressants17:18
lcukyeah, you should get some17:19
GAN900On Soulja Boy music video comments?17:19
lcuki don't generally go looking at meme videos or need to understand the comments17:20
lcukbut I certainly see all sorts of comments around the maemo meego stuff17:20
lcukand take the mood of them seriously17:20
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rasterjacekowski: i'd just expect more of people who are meant to be intelligent AND trained by tertiary education in their field (ie did comp eng/sci)17:20
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SpeedEvilItr's unfortunartely hard to comment constructively, when the real problem is 'you bought the wrong phone'.17:21
rffIs there a stable,working g++ package for diablo on the nokia 810?17:21
lcukg++ is gcc isn't it?17:21
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lcukrff ^17:21
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GAN900lcuk, I wasn't talking specifically about Maemo/MeeGo video comments. :)17:22
rffyeah, it includes g++17:22
Venemogcc compiles c, g++ compiles c++17:22
lcukwell I was - since those are the videos that matter to us around here17:22
rffbut I think they are separate on maemo17:22
lcukrff, yes17:22 lists all the available repos17:22
lcukthere is an sdk/tools repo set17:22
lcukwhich is intended for the sdk17:22
rffI'll check it out, thanks17:23
lcukhowever you can get build-essential from within it17:23
GAN900Tertiary education not necessarily having any correlation to idiocy or non-idiocy. *g*17:23
lcukwhich lets you build apps using makefiles and c and c++ etc17:23
lcukadds gcc and make capabilities17:23
lcukthe essentials for buildign apps ;)17:23
pupniki love yuv mode now17:23
lcukpupnik, :) only now?17:24
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lcukis that the little page I showed you17:24
pupnikso the lcd controller doesn't convert to 16-bit rgb before presenting it to the screen?17:24
pupniki didn't realize one could avoid the 565 quantisation that way17:24
lcukits very nice17:25
lcuksame as on the n8x0 too17:25
pupnik<- just learned something today :)17:25
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lcukachievement unlocked!17:25
* pupnik tests gemrb some more17:25
lcukfor those wondering why this conversation is occuring:
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kerioi still don't get why we don't get 24bit in rgb mode :(17:28
alteregopupnik: opengl also uses full colour capabilities17:28
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alteregoI noticed qmlviewer when backed with -opengl has much smoother gradients.17:28
lcukkerio, 50% more data17:28
lcukalterego, even when it goes through the compositor on the desktop?17:30
alteregoNot tsure17:30
keriois there an easy way to find the number of true bits in a bitmask?17:30
kerioi mean, of "true" bits17:30
lcukI am not sure, but perhaps you are just noticing a similar sort of rendering conversion issue that the software renderer does differently to the ogl one17:30
kerioas in "1"17:30
kerioas opposed to 017:30
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lcukkerio, I have seen some asm bitlogic in the past for that17:31
lcukwhat do you want it for17:31
keriolcuk: counting the poss17:31
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keriostupid return key >.<17:32
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keriocounting the possible values of a cell in a sudoku board17:32
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rasterlcuk: rgb 2nds to almost always be 32bit - so 2x the data actually17:32
keriokeeping track of it in another value is a PITA17:32
kerioi could just use a string containing the numbers17:32
keriobut meh17:32
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rasteras 24bit is grossly inefficient for access due to the 3 byte pixel groups17:32
rastertho i have toi say17:32
rasterall my embedded toys run 32bpp17:33
rasteras frankly. the quality is just nice17:33
raster16bpp is dead17:33
Kegetysthe screen can only display 18bit color anyway so 24bits would be a bit of a waste already17:33
wolf^alterego, opengl does dithering (afair)17:33
rasteron any modern smartphne-like hw17:33
rasterKegetys: not my screens. they do full 24bits :)17:33
alteregoIt's more than dithering17:33
rasterbut they also are super-amoled :)17:34
lcukraster, sure, I run in truecolor also17:34
Kegetyswell, N900 screen17:34
lcuknice thing about YUV, it gracefully degrades to grayscale17:34
raster18bpp vs 16bpp is also relatively noticable in terms of speed17:34
lcukwhich should work nicely on bookreaders etc17:34
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* Khertan is really happy with his new bug tracker17:39
rfflcuk: i've added but i'm not seeing a c/c++ or build-essentials package17:39
rasterdithering is lame17:39
Khertanis there any go game for maemo ?17:39
raster32bpp is da bomb17:39
lcukrff, then you did not read either my comments, nor the page I linked17:39
raster9ok ok dithering may be a necessary evil if all u have is 16bpp etc.)17:40
alteregowolf^: and? Do you think I don't know what dithering is?17:40
wolf^alterego, and that's a screenshot of n900 opengl driver rendering "more that 16 bit"17:40
lcukraster, how do you use alpha on the background itself, I understand needing it for middle layers, and for alignment, but the alpha component isnt used for anything on the lcd itself is it17:40
rfflcuk: why is that?17:41
lcukrff, because I did not say to add extras repository17:41
lcukso go and read what I did say17:41
kerio256bpp is the shit17:41
lcukvga mode-x is where its at :P17:41
kerioi want a 2000dpi screen with 256bpp of color depth17:42
rffah, mistakenly thought extras included the SDK packages17:42
kerioi'll install one behind each window17:42
kerioadd some eyetracking, and bam17:42
kerioawesome panorama17:42
rasterlcuk: well the hw i have uses it as an optional alpha mask to the yuv layer17:43
rasteras yuv is an underlay17:43
rasterso u can blend rgb on top17:43
rasterif u dont use yuv17:43
kerioraster: cool17:43
rasterthen the alpha in the fb is unused17:43
rasterits just alignment padding17:43
* lcuk nods17:43
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lcukwhats the lifetime of amoled screens like, are you seeing any leaps and bounds in its longevity?17:44
rasterwell there have been over the years17:44
rasteri just think they look gorgeouis17:44
rasterlike black is pure black17:45
rasterno grey17:45
rasterlike nothing. nada. black17:45
lcukof course, I have seen and touched, they are nice17:45
rasterwhen screen turns on - u notice nothing17:45
rasterunlike lcd where u see it go grey17:45
rasterand super-amoled works just as wel las lcd in daylight etc.17:45
Stskeepsraster: how's your linux adventures going?17:45
rasterwith reflections and so-on17:45
rasterthe colors are amazing17:45
rastercompared to lcd17:46
rasterthey really are vivid17:46
rasterits gorgeous17:46
rasteronly 1 problem17:46
lcukthere always is ;)17:46
rasterthe pentile matrix basicallt drops your r & b horizontal res/.17:46
rasterStskeeps:  going well17:46
lcukraster, yeah I know17:46
Stskeepsraster: limo and android pissing their pants yet?17:46
lcukit drops the res and allows for seeming optimisations17:46
lcukwhilst saying you support x res, its lower ;)17:46
rasterStskeeps: la la la la la :)17:47
rasterlcuk:  well really there is no point trying to do hacks17:47
rfflcuk: unfortunately the link doesn't exist for the SDK repository targetting diablo17:47
raster"Cleartype" (subpixel font rendering) falls over on oled17:47
rasteras the rgb arrangement is different17:48
rasteri actually despise most such hacks17:48
rasterthat assume some kind fo screen properties17:48
lcukrff then you are blind because I can see them17:48
rasterthey tend to sooner or later be obsoleeted or falll apart when screen tech changes17:48
lcukraster, what I meant was that amoled using less pixels than advertised17:49
lcukallows them to go faster whilst pushing less data17:49
rasterfor years it was all about how crt's doont have exact pixels and that pixels bleed based on brightness and that u have to always render with special gamma to account for crt17:49
rasterthen people got lcd's17:49
rasterand that changed17:49
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rasterthen it was all the rages for sub-pixel rendering due to a semi-standard rgb lcd cell setup17:49
rasterand now thats being killed off with oled simply being different again17:50
lcukraster, microsoft cleartype implementation has a lovely selector to choose the right layout of pixels17:50
rasteroh i see the lower res with r & b17:50
lcukits nice to see, the low end just accepts a switch17:50
lcukand it works :)17:50
rasterone of the things i noticed early on17:50
rasterbut i am willing to live with it in return for the colors and contrast17:51
lcukraster, sure - i do a similar thing with YUV since it has lower res colours17:51
lcukbut full res b+w17:51
RST38hraster: I find it weird how people never mention that those wonderful LED-lit screents produce shitty color17:51
rasterlcuk:  one thing i despise about it even when its "right for your display" is the color fringing17:51
RST38hWorse than the normal EL-lit LCDs17:51
rasteryou introduce colorisation where there was no color before17:51
rasterand it irks me something wicked17:51
rasterRST38h: dunno - my tv @ home is defintiely nicer than my previous el-backlight one17:52
rasterand boy is it thin and light17:52
rastereven tho it got bigger from 42 ->46"17:53
rasterits even nicer than it ever was before17:53
RST38hraster: yep, that is true17:53
raster"it depends" i guess17:53
RST38hraster: But all three LED-lit computer displays I have seen pale (literally) when compared with the old IBM's EL-lit display17:53
rasterbut i do think the marketing gimmick of "led screens" is annyoing17:53
rasteraas its "led backlight with lcd front filter"17:53
RST38hraster: yep17:54
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RST38hraster: But that would be ok, if they looked better17:54
rfflcuk: does give you a 404?17:54
RST38hraster: Another weird effects: when looking at the HP LED-lit display through glasses, all the window edges have red double-edge17:54
RST38hraster: I first thought it is the display itself, but then took the glasses off - and it is gone17:55
rasteri havent got an led pc monitor to judge by17:55
rasterbut my tv looks awesome :)17:55
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RST38hraster: Both LED-lit laptop screens I have look ok (just pale)17:55
RST38hraster: better than a CRT tv? ;)17:55
rasterhell yeah17:56
RST38hraster: weird17:56
GAN900RST38h, odd, what prescription?17:56
rasteri'll be happy to never see another crt again17:57
RST38hGAN900_ -5/-517:57
RST38hraster: Got an EL-lit LCD TV and an ancient Goldstar (!) CRT17:57
RST38hraster: Freaking CRT has got a better color.17:58
GAN900RST38h, pretty decent.17:58
RST38hGAN: You should try it for yourself, in BestBuy or something17:58
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GAN900The LED-lit Apple IPSes I've seen all look better.17:58
RST38hGAN: Look for a 24" or so LED_lit HP display17:58
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RST38hGAN: If you do not see it, then it must be the lense covering or something17:59
lcukrff, not sure I was thinking about the info rather than a .install file - the sdk is not technically designed for on device use however it does work.  you will have to dig17:59
GAN900RST38h, yeah, haven't seen any TN LED panels yet.17:59
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RST38hmoo wazd18:00
rffyeah, maybe i can just create my own install file18:00
pupnikraster: only a few LED backlights are actually a fine individually steerable matrix - iirc, the rest are sidelit18:01
lcukrff, using an install file is fruitless18:01
lcuksince you cannot install the command line apps for the sdk using HAM18:01
RST38hpupnik: Sidelit will look like real shit on any decently sized display18:01
RST38hpupnik: So, I would still believe those 12"+ LED-lit displays are backlit18:02
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pupniki have no idea where i read that - maybe it's all wrong18:02
RST38hpupnik: Extreme example of sidelit was the original GBA18:02
RST38hpupnik: Less extreme examples are N8x0 and Symbian phones18:02
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pupnikvery happy with the n900 display: just need either more battery or less drain18:04
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Pincyanyone here playing ja2?18:04
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Pincyhow do i aim and shoot...? when i hold the cursor over an enemy, it stays a hand18:06
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rfflcuk: i'm running into major dependency issues. i can't install build-essential because it depends on libc6-dev, libc6, gcc, g++, etc. and I don't see libc6 listed in the repository.18:06
rffah, it is listed under the gcc package18:09
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RST38hpupnik: Yea, N900 display is very decent. But it is small enough to bse sidelit18:10
rffhm, no it isn't.  It must be somewhere else.18:10
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rffit's under glibc18:12
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svuorelaa/win 3418:14
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rffi'm getting an issue where libstdc++6-dev cannot be installed because it depends on g++-3.4 and g++-3.4 cannot be installed because it depends on libstdc++6-dev, what gives?18:34
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Munkiiihello... i have a n900 browser based problem...18:36
SpeedEvilMunkiii: ?18:36
Munkiiia webpage isn't loading fully/properley for me18:36
SpeedEvilwhich one?18:36
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Munkiiican somebody go on facebook and search for "situare"18:36
SpeedEvildon't have facebook.18:36
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Munkiiisomebody in here must do?18:38
tobis87Wow, Aes, sha1 and md5 acceleration drivers for omap2 are now available:
tobis87Would they work on the n900 as well?18:38
SpeedEvilyes - I noted they were going into kernel.18:38
SpeedEvila while back.18:39
tobis87Yes but the aes driver is new.18:39
SpeedEvilThere is a hardware hash unit - are the others accellerated asm?18:39
SpeedEvilor other functional units than the CPU?18:39
Munkiiihow do u change my text colour using Xchat?18:40
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SpeedEvilI think it picks it up from the theme - I'm unsure.18:41
rffah ha, you have to install them simultaneously18:41
SpeedEvilactually - no18:41
SpeedEvilsettings->preferences -> colors18:41
SpeedEvilin xchat18:42
Munkiiii'm in that... but can't see which one changes the colour of my messages18:42
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tobis87The only asm, I found in the aes driver is "* prevent OCP bus error (SRESP) (...) __asm__ __volatile__("nop"); "18:44
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Venemotobis87: about the driver: and
SpeedEvilOh - right - hardware AES18:48
SpeedEvildiddn't know that18:48
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tobis87Venemo: Sorry, but I only see information about a MBX/3D driver.18:49
SpeedEvilI want mergemem.18:50
SpeedEvilwhich hardware hashers would make easier18:51
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tobis87Does the n900 also have hardware aes support? And if it does, is it possible to adopt the driver?18:51
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SpeedEviltobis87: Well - that comment in the code seems to imply so18:52
tobis87SpeedEvil: So do you think it would be possible to backport the aes driver for the n900 kernel? The sha1 and md5 driver would be hard, because 2.6.28 does not support shash which the new driver depends on.18:54
SpeedEvilI don't see why not18:54
SpeedEvilIt's obviously possible.18:54
SpeedEvilI have absolutely no idea how much work it would be.18:54
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tobis87SpeedEvil: latest mergemem files are from 1999?!:-D18:56
SpeedEvilSee also
SpeedEvilAnd note the date18:59
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tobis87SpeedEvil: I don't know but does linux not already do memory sharing, by supplying libc for example as a readonly libary in memory which is shared between all processes?19:06
n900evilstartmtwo bashes19:08
n900evilthey init lots of 'new" data that is really the same.19:08
GAN900Engadget now takes weeks to load more than the first story on the page in MicroB.19:09
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Munkiiicolor test...19:15
Munkiiicolor test...19:15
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tobis87SpeedEvil: The first problem regarding the aes driver is, that there are missing includes, do you think I can replace <plat/cpu.h> and <plat/dma.h> with <mach/cpu.h> and <mach/dma.h>?19:30
SpeedEviltobis87: Hang on - let me get my kernel reference.19:31
SpeedEvilIt says 'Outlook unclear, ask again later'.19:31
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KhertanHi someone can explain me why my feed content isn't display on
Khertanit s look ok when i look at the feed directly :
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Venemo~seen lcuk19:36
infobotlcuk is currently on #maemo (4h 59m 31s) #meego (4h 59m 31s). Has said a total of 228 messages. Is idling for 1h 34m 38s, last said: 'since you cannot install the command line apps for the sdk using HAM'.19:36
Khertanhu ... just notice that there is pymaemo in gitorious but also harmattan  python19:36
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VenemoKhertan: yeah, interesting stuff going on on gitorious19:37
tobis87SpeedEvil: I have successful buld omap-aes.ko, next to go omap-sham.ko, replacing it with mach worked, but I'm not sure if it is correct. But I can only modify the modules, the stuff which has to go into the kernel has to do someone else, since i can only compile on the device.19:37
KhertanVenemo, interesting but strange too ... why 2 projects19:37
Khertanok maybe the maemo name in meego :)19:38
VenemoKhertan: if you look at there are already some stuff from Harmattan19:38
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KhertanVenemo, yeah ... i see it :)19:39
VenemoStskeeps, ping19:39
Khertanpython 2.6 at least for meego :)19:39
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StskeepsVenemo: zzz19:39
VenemoStskeeps: just read your analysis on
Khertanpyside is in gitorious too19:40
VenemoStskeeps: can I ask what is the 40% closed component in hildon-desktop?19:40
tobis87SpeedEvil: Exactly what I thought, omap-sham will cause troubles. The shash stuff is missing. -> implicit declaration of function crypto_shash_blocksize ...19:40
VenemoStskeeps: interestingly, you wrote that 40% of hildon-desktop comes from L7, I'm curious which part is it?19:42
StskeepsVenemo: sec19:42
Stskeepskeep in mind 40% is amount of source packages19:42
Stskeepsclick the 40%19:42
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VenemoStskeeps: ah... hm.19:43
KhertanL7 ?19:44
VenemoStskeeps: do we know what do these things do?19:44
VenemoKhertan: read that page19:44
VenemoKhertan: L7: Not published except on device and SSU repositories19:44
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VenemoKhertan: this is a study about the openness of Maemo19:45
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VenemoKhertan: according to this, only 43% of the packages are open on the N90019:45
Khertanother 100% :)19:45
Khertanyep ... it s look like a nice description, listing ...19:47
VenemoKhertan: it is quite informative, yes19:47
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VenemoStskeeps: after some googling of the two closed packages, these are no big deal19:49
Stskeepsthey're translations19:49
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VenemoStskeeps: no19:51
GAN900Venemo, and despite numerous protestations to the contrary, it's likely never to improve.19:51
Khertanit s strange to see that modest depends on closed package19:51
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VenemoStskeeps: they are not translations
VenemoKhertan: I guess this is in order to keep people from messing with it19:53
Khertanhum ... more than it is actually ?19:53
VenemoI must admit that this is very cleverly thought out. The closed dependencies are there to prevent using it anywhere outside of Maemo (I guess)19:54
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StskeepsVenemo: ah, customizations19:57
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Khertanso anyone know how maemo planet works ?19:59
Khertani still didn't understand why my feed aren't display well20:00
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GAN900Khertan, get X-Fade to look at you RSS.20:08
KhertanGAN900, oh ... I ll bother X-Fade again :)20:09
KhertanGAN900, oh ... I ll borring X-Fade again :)20:09
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GAN900Hey, why else is he here? ;)20:09
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slonopotamuserr... does logic look completely broken only to me?20:21
povbotBug 5549: libosso-abook should be open source20:21
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SpeedEvilNot at all.20:22
slonopotamus"we won't develop it anymore -> we won't give you a chance to develop"20:23
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SpeedEvilIf you start out with the point of view 'Do we want people developing this'20:23
slonopotamusSpeedEvil: what would they lose?20:24
Khertanthere is a little logic20:25
Khertanthat i didn't caution20:25
Khertanbut qgil explain it in a talk post20:25
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slonopotamus(to be honest, i don't care about libosso-abook)20:26
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slonopotamusbut reasoning just seems to be broken20:27
Venemoslonopotamus: well, it is broken20:27
Venemoslonopotamus: but I actually agree with you20:27
Venemoslonopotamus: why don't you express your opinion in a comment there?20:28
slonopotamusVenemo: it's useless20:28
slonopotamusKhertan: throwing tarball at ppl is an option too.20:29
Venemoslonopotamus: agreed20:29
Khertanit s not really an option for them20:30
Venemoslonopotamus: but... after we will have a working MeeGo on the N900, this and similar stuff will no longer be an issue20:30
slonopotamusKhertan: we would never see quake engines opensourced if Id Software followed that logic20:30
Khertanas they want to not do just open source code ... but open source dev20:30
slonopotamusKhertan: id opened them _because_ they no longer used them20:30
Khertanslonopotamus, i didn't say i agree ... i'm not the guy to convince :)20:31
Khertanlook at vectormine ... it s now gpl :)20:31
slonopotamusKhertan: id software loses nothing, community is happy, john carmac is a hero, etc :)20:31
pupnikawesome Khertan20:31
pupnikjust needs a Space Duel mod now20:32
Khertanslonopotamus, he was already an hero before :)20:32
slonopotamusKhertan: nokia fails to do opensource dev. look at qt.20:32
Khertanpupnik, héhé ... if you code the bt communication :)20:32
Khertanslonopotamus, ? what s the problem with qt ?20:32
Venemoslonopotamus: please elaborate :)20:33
Khertan <<< 4 votes needed to reach extras :)20:33
pupnikvectormine (v. 1.0.7-1) correct for n810?20:34
slonopotamusKhertan: afair i saw a post on planet maemo, will try to find again20:34
Khertanhum 1.0.7-1 is the non-free20:34
Khertanpupnik, and for n810 it ll failed as i use the n900 accellerometers20:34
Khertanbut can be replace by keys20:35
Khertan <<< the source20:35
pupnikok that's np20:35
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slonopotamusKhertan: first one
slonopotamusKhertan: 1 min, had another link20:37
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keriodo you know if there's a sudoku for n90020:38
lcukmultiple versions20:39
Venemokerio: I use EightyOne, but there are more20:40
_0x47Hi all! If you had some source code from subversion and would package it into a .deb, would you keep the .svn directories inside to be able to update the sources and easily repackage it?20:40
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kerioi was thinking of making another sudoku application for maemo20:41
kerioam i an idiot?20:41
kerioi mean, regarding this20:41
lcuk_0x47, you mean pushing the hidden svn meta info in the source uploaded to extras{devel|testing} etc?20:41
_0x47lcuk: yes, indeed20:41
lcukthen, no do not include it20:41
_0x47ok, thanks! :)20:42
lcukfor one thing, doesn't it save your password ;)20:42
_0x47lcuk: public access, but good point20:42
slonopotamuslcuk: no, it's in ~/.subversion20:42
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slonopotamusKhertan: ahha, found it.
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Khertanslonopotamus, it s not really so bad ... just need some improvments ...20:45
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slonopotamusKhertan: it's just pretending to be open :)20:47
Venemoslonopotamus: they still have to learn how to do open source development properly, that's all20:47
Khertanit's open ... they just need some time to change things20:48
slonopotamusVenemo: look at openoffice and sun jdk. they have same issues as nokia and are not going to fix them20:49
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slonopotamuswell, openoffice is even worse since it accepts commits only if you give copyrights to sun/oracle :)20:50
infobotslonopotamus meant: well, openoffice is even worse since it accepts patches only if you give copyrights to sun/oracle :)20:50
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Venemoslonopotamus: well then, Nokia is already learning20:51
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Venemoslonopotamus: actually, with contribution Hildon to GNOME, they already did some very nice open source efforts20:51
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Venemoslonopotamus: contribution => contributing20:52
Venemojohnsq: Hello!20:52
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Khertanhum ... someone know where is the meego handset image for n900 ... i would like to install it to try some python qt apps20:57
Khertanoups wrong chan20:57
someonewhat was the name of that bluesnafting program for maemo/n900 ?20:57
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pupnikKhertan: you think it would be possible to run dhcp over bluetooth?20:59
Khertannone idea20:59
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SpeedEvilslonopotamus: They are trying to 'manage' the community, much as they would in-house coders.21:00
SpeedEvilFor in-house coders, it's quite valid to say 'no, you can't work on that, work on this'.21:01
SpeedEvilAnd this gets the effort, not that.21:01
SpeedEvilFor opensource community, this doesn't quite work.21:01
SpeedEvilAs people may want to work on stuff that does not fit your preconcieved framework.21:01
SpeedEvilWhich can get really embarrasing if the 'old clunky' interface gets extended in a nice fashion and performs better in all aspects than the 'bright shiny new' one.21:02
SpeedEvilThis can be avoided by not opensourcing the old clunky one.21:02
kerioSpeedEvil: heh ._.21:03
kerioreally, someone should break in the nokia hq and post all the source to wikileaks21:03
keriofrom the CEO's workstation21:03
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Khertankerio, did you really think CEO has source ... they just manage team :)21:04
kerioKhertan: i think the CEO definetely *has* access to the source21:05
Khertani doubt21:06
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Khertanin my company i prefer to not let him break somethings21:06
kerioKhertan: i wasn't talking about commit access21:07
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* Venemo agrees with RST38h21:38
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lardmanevening all21:40
lardman~lart Debian naming21:40
* infobot nukes Debian naming with a single large nuke21:40
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lardmanI wasted a couple of hours trying to compile python-qt-blah, thinking that was PythonQT, but no, it was in fact PyQT21:40
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lardmanhey crashanddie21:42
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lardmanah, that affect again ;)21:42
lardmans/affect/effect oops21:42
RST38hheya lardman21:43
lardmanhi RST38h21:43
Venemolardman: hey21:43
lardmanhi Venemo21:43
lardmananything exciting going on this weekend in maemo-land?21:43
Venemonot really21:43
lardmanam considering whether to try to package PythonQT, but think I might wait till tomorrow21:44
Venemolardman: perhaps check this out:
lardmanhmm, interesting21:45
alteregoVenemo: played much with QML?21:45
lardmanI was thinking that disabling the UI effects should be included in that control panel applet21:45
Venemoalterego: not yet21:46
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lardmanKhertan: you about? thanks for your thoughts with the code but it was the wrong one21:47
lardmanKhertan: I've now compiled PythonQT successfully, will package and push to the repo tomorrow fwiw21:48
lardmanand on that note, I'm going to head to watch a DVD, cu chaps tomorrow21:48
lcukn900lardman there was a load of discussion about how to package up hacks21:48
lardmanlcukn900: hacks?21:48
lcukn900yeah console tridcks nut i have to go21:49
lardmanwas simply the wrong code yesterday, my fault (and Debian's naming scheme)21:49
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lardmanwas PyQT rather than PythonQT21:49
lardmanthe wonders of unambiguous naming ;)21:49
lardmananyway, will catch you all tomorrow :)21:50
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Guest68862can someone tell me what was the software named that can bluesnarf other bluetooth enabled phones?22:05
Guest68862it was for n900/maemo22:05
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delirusanyone have exerience with internet over usb on an n900?22:07
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lcukdelirus, you mean using the n900 as a modem for your laptop, or getting internet through main computer into your n90022:17
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keriodelirus: both are equally valid options for "internet over usb on a n900"22:23
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delirusah, I mean getting internet to my n900 through usb22:26
Venemogoodbye everyone :)22:26
Venemogood night22:26
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deliruswas just wondering if anyone had any problems in the process of doing it22:27
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keriodelirus: hmm, there's a wiki page on that22:27
delirusah, can I get a link?22:27
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Snark1994Um, hiya people... Quick question about contacts - does anyone know an easy way to access Number/Contact-name pairings from Python? (ie. using the number +447891234567, check whose name I have that registered to in my contacts list)22:31
Snark1994I've found lib-abook, but that's a C library22:31
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Snark1994and I was wondering if there was a way to access them without going through that22:31
* unixSnob just read a page claiming GPG only works for signatures on maemo22:33
unixSnobis that true?22:33
unixSnobno crypto apps?22:34
unixSnobno secure email?22:34
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keriohuh? why would it only work for signatures?22:38
kerioit's a cpu22:39
kerioit calculates things22:39
unixSnobkerio: see
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unixSnobmaemo may be crippled to stay thin22:40
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unixSnobnot sure what else it would be22:40
fluxwell, if that's the case, then it's likely because signature verification has been the only systme requirement for gpg22:40
fluxI suppose otherwise it wouldn't even be bundled22:41
fluxnothing prevents you from putting in your own GPG if you wish22:41
unixSnobdd-wrt is missing some hash algorithms because they're too heavy for an underpowered cpu.. could be the same thing22:41
flux(AFAIK the mail program doesn't support encryption, though, but its source is available as well ;-))22:41
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unixSnobflux: these algorithms are compiled into GPG.. it wouldn't be trivial to just add an algorithm22:42
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fluxunixsnob, it's a console app. I believe it _would_ be trivial to take the standard gnupg and build it in scratchbox and package it etc. or just copy the binary.22:42
fluxunixsnob, it's not like it uses any special hardware for encryption22:42
unixSnobpossible.. but not trivial for a user.. users don't expect to have to work with a scratchpad22:43
unixSnobit's not even trivial to install a scratchpad22:43
fluxwell, users don't except to drop into xterm to run gpg..22:43
hrwsomeone know why packages from testing are not promoted automatically to extras when maintainter gets email that it can be done?22:43
unixSnobI had to do quite a bit of work to get a scratchpad going22:43
fluxit apperas there there's something like gnupg2 available in the repositories22:44
unixSnobi'll check it out22:44
hrwcause mdbus2 2.0.0-4 was in testing and got all to be promoted to extras but in meantime I pushed 2.0.2 ver to devel (forgot to testing)22:44
fluxunixsnob, in addition, there's openssl command line tool, which can be used for encryption/decryption as well22:45
unixSnobopenssl wouldn't help me.. I want to be able to decrypt gpg messages22:46
unixSnobfolks could probably really use this capability in the middle east22:47
keriounixSnob: write a package then22:47
muellis3how would I create a new 3G connection? I need to be able to connect to different APNs.22:47
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unixSnobwhere India and saudi arabia are now snooping on Blackberry IMs22:47
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keriounixSnob: install fAPN22:53
kerioand expect weirdness if you enable autoconnect22:53
keriohehe, maemo's package names rule22:53
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unixSnobkerio: i don't quite follow..  looks like a GSM app, correct?  Are you saying it will install public key crypto?22:57
keriono, wait, confused the usernames22:57
keriomuellisoft: install fAPN22:57
kerioand expect weirdness if you enable autoconnect22:57
keriounixSnob: you compile your own public key crypto!22:57
keriohow can you be sure it works, otherwise?22:57
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unixSnobi just trust that everyone else has looked at it22:58
muellisofthm kerio. So can I not simply have multilpe GSM/UMTS based connections? Like with WiFi?22:58
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unixSnoband i hope everyone else isn't counting on the same thing22:58
kerioMuelli: you can, but maemo software is not meant to support multiple APNs22:58
kerioso the autoconnect won't work properly22:59
kerioapart from that, it should work fine22:59
Muellikerio: you mean multiple GSM/UMTS connections? Because a connection cannot have multiple APNs.23:04
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Muellikerio: how would I create a new cellular connection then?23:06
kerioinstall fAPN23:06
kerio(really, who picks those names)23:06
luke-jrMuelli: you'll only be able to have one connection active at a time in Maemo tho23:07
Muellihm. I hoped I could do that without installing 3rd party tools23:07
Muelliluke-jr: sure. I'm fine with that.23:08
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luke-jrhmm, maybe my N810 battery really IS fried… booted Maemo for the first time in months, and it isn't charging there either23:44
deltadoes anyone have a paper on getting N900 to work as a usb modem on windows 7?23:44
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_llll_google joikuspot23:45
oneili need help , i follwed this link thru the maemo platform23:46
oneilanyone here?23:46
_llll_you should follow the usual etiquette23:46
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_llll_ie do not ask "is anyone here", or "can anyone help", or "does anyone know about...?" just ask what you want to ask23:47
LiraNunahey guys, is it possible to run maemo5 on other architectures?23:47
LiraNunas/architectures/ARM devices.23:47
SpeedEvilLiraNuna: In principle yes.23:48
oneilsorr6 about appologies23:48
SpeedEvilIn practrice, not really.23:48
SpeedEvilMaemo 5 has large binary blobs.23:48
SpeedEvilWhich can'rt be recompiled on arbitrary platrforms.23:48
LiraNunawhat about a device with similar hardware?23:48
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LiraNunaDroid 2 with Maemo would make my pants wet23:49
SpeedEvilI vaguely recall people trying to get it to boot on beagleboard, whihc is quite similar23:49
delta_llll_: I don't want a wireless hotspot running on my phone, thanks.23:49
SpeedEvilI would not expect the phone to work23:49
keriodelta: hmm23:52
kerioinstall nokia pc suite, click on "connect"?23:52
lcukdelta, n900 as usb modem works flawlessly in ubuntu, I am not sure about windows though, sorry23:53
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* timeless frowns23:54
timelessanyone here use Skype to make 800 calls?23:54
nox-hmm would this help delta?
kerio800 calls?23:55
timelessi'm having trouble using the dialpad to log into a certain service23:55
LiraNunatimeless, I don't really count, but I don't think I made 800 calls23:55
keriothat's a lot of calls23:55
lcuktimeless, Update: This offer has now ended, unfortunately. However, you can still make cheap calls to the USA, or check out our subscriptions for even better value for regular callers.23:56
timelesshrm, wrong hit23:56
timelesstry that one?23:56
lcukyou are timeless, I didn't know you are a timelord!23:56
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lcukthats 200523:56
CarnequeHey all, can you run apache server yet on the N900?23:56
oneilHow can i rectify this- when  i tried to download the kmplayer my n900 prompts that@i nee this application package-xsltproc23:57
lcuktimeless, which countries have you tried using to call23:58
timelessi've used it for usa and uk23:58
timelessit's been around for the usa for a long time23:59
timelessthat's apparently the global announce instead of the original announce23:59
lcuki think the uk tollfree numbers all changed to 0800023:59
timelessit's actually the most important skype feature23:59

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