IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2010-08-10

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pupnikso did I miss any lasting substitute for pulseaudio?00:10
pupnikNO.  NO NONONO -00:11
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crashanddieTiagoTiago: please deactivate your away script00:24
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mc_teoi live in ireland00:26
mc_teowhich means none of the major websites have any of the barcodes in their dbs00:26
mc_teoso i have to like search for a while to get something that actually works in mbarcode00:27
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DocScrutinizerpupnik: hehehe :-S00:28
DocScrutinizerpupnik: also a 'fan' of PA?00:28
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pupnik 1642  1571 user     R    16824  6.8 42.7 /usr/bin/gemrb00:29
pupnik  780     1 pulse    R <   3792  1.5 35.6 /usr/bin/pulseaudio --system --high-priority00:29
pupnikend. of. story.00:29
TiagoTiagosorry 'bout the away msgs , it was on by dwefault on X-chat and i hadn' noticed it yet u.u00:30
DocScrutinizerisn't it amazing how Poettering and redhat managed to shove that crap down everybody's throat, just for no good reason?00:30
crashanddieTiagoTiago: use /away if you want, just make sure it doesn't pollute the channels you're in00:31
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pupnikDocScrutinizer: that's the worst i've ever seen on any game on N90000:33
DocScrutinizerallegedly PA was starting to do everything much better than ALSA (which has been managed by Suse/Novel ever since - nooo, surely didn't matter), and now we got another layer of soundserver over ALSA card interfaces, and the only two things it actually gave us which ALSA doesn't are audio-over-IP and hotswitching of devices00:33
pupnikneed to completely replace both openal and bypass pulse00:33
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ShadowJKI did wonder, when pulseaudio used too much CPU on my desktop, how they'd make it work on a limited cpu..00:34
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DocScrutinizerthe only two *useful* things, but then it also introduces all kinds of borkedness like the CPU usage and forcing a new audio API onto every app00:34
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, arguably it also gave an API with comprehendable documentation ;p00:35
ShadowJKmost alsa apps remain buggy until they become so popular an alsa dev has to come add the voodoo to fix them00:35
DocScrutinizerwell, maybe the documentation of ALSA could be better, but that could have been done00:35
pupnikit might be fixable performance-wise00:35
pupnikbut a few things are atrocious, like the behavior when underruns occur00:36
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pupniktime to go kill a mewling kitten or two00:36
pupnikheh, cheers nox00:36
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: admittedly we had a long way to go until we considered ALSA working correctly, on twinklephone, but then I don't see PA is *any* better wrt that00:37
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ShadowJKmy experience with alsa and underruns has been that it does something like: turn up volume to max, play burst of noise, corrupt all delay measurements00:37
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ShadowJKpulseaudio on the other hand seems to just hang and not kill my ears :-)00:38
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: not reproducible here, at least since ALSA 1.0.1 or somesuch00:39
DocScrutinizer0.98 had a few nasty bugs still00:39
ShadowJKI never used alsa when it was 0.x00:40
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DocScrutinizeranyway, I don't get it how you need to discard and rewrite from scratch a whole framework, just because you are too lazy to study the docs and sources. PA is no % better than ALSA00:42
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DocScrutinizerok, there are bugs in ALSA? fix then!!00:43
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DocScrutinizerno docs? write them!00:43
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DocScrutinizerbtw ->
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DocScrutinizerI agree that's not great, but then otoh how many projects have a really better doc?00:45
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chem|stDocScrutinizer: as you mention it... I had this wierd behaviour of low sound in earspeaker, once I just touched all controls and now it seems to be loud enough to hear someone...00:45
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smharis there a way to enter text using handwritting in N900?00:48
chem|stsound behaviour seems to be random sometimes and even with PA niced all the way up there is still something having a hickup down left00:48
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chem|stsmhar: garnettVM00:48
chem|stsmhar: nevermind just kidding...00:48
SpeedEvilchem|st: there is a fix to pulseaudio00:49
chem|stsmhar: for chinese only afaik (please tell me wrong)00:49
smharchem|st, you got me high for just a little00:49
SpeedEvilchem|st: to prevent skipping00:49
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SpeedEvilchem|st: however - it's not public00:49
MohammadAG51PR1.3, i wonder when that is00:50
chem|stSpeedEvil: the skipping isn't the problem it is to have no sound or scrambled00:50
chem|stwell if the no sound means it skips then well...00:50
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chem|stI still dont get why the drivers are so closed up... still00:52
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TiagoTiagoare we gonna have Swype onthe N900?00:52
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: btw I don't get what delay measurements you refer to. If you use a ring buffer with two segments of length N then you know the playback shall be off by N<delay<2N - as long as no plugins used. For plugin delay I dunno if there's any concept at all to deal with them, but they are supposed to be small enough not to matter00:54
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chem|stTiagoTiago: is swype available for nitdroid? then yes if not I doubt it00:58
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trumeeSpeedEvil, will tha PA fix overcome the sip bug #10388?01:00
povbotBug Choppy audio in SIP conversation, WLAN power save problem?01:00
lcukpupAssembly results look uber cool01:00
lcukdigging through the js1k stuff01:00
lcukdamn pupnik left01:00
TiagoTiagowhy isn't voltage used to measure battery charge while recharging?01:00
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: also buffer underruns clearly will playback the old content of the other end of the ringbuffer. I don't see how they could start to act up, change volume and playback random noise01:01
trumeeit seems that bug is not a sip issue rather a PA/alsa issue01:01 is cool as are lots of the others01:01
SpeedEvil1dunno trumee01:02
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trumeeSpeedEvil, is that fix on maemo bugzilla?01:03
SpeedEvilwas something about choppy audio01:03
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SpeedEvilan internal fix with a note that nokia does not say when it will release releases at the end01:03
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trumeehmm. quick search doesnt reveal it01:04
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: why should it?01:05
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TiagoTiagoI'm looking at the graph from BatteryGraph and it gives a decent approximation of the amount of charge in the battery and it is the only readout that contimues to be updated while the charger is plugged01:09
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DocScrutinizerthat internal fix and "don't publish any source before binary hits the endusers' devices" policy - just to avoid happening again their competitors roll out a device like pre with stuff Nokia "invented" and not yet shipped - that's actually so annoying... no words for that01:11
trumeeSpeedEvil, search on PA and fixed doesnt bring up that bug01:12
TiagoTiagowell, "annoyning" is a word....01:12
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TiagoTiagoat least if spelled correctly01:13
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: LiIon charging is way more complex than you seem to think. Yet basically it's stupid simple to charge, just to analyze state is a bit more complex01:14
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TiagoTiagolike i said, the lines in the graph make sense01:14
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DocScrutinizeryou *think* they do01:15
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DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: so complain with author of that batterygraph app? I'm not using it and I see no such problems anywhere01:20
TiagoTiagounless they try to use the "great minds think alike" excuse/kiss-assery01:20
TiagoTiagowhat problem?01:20
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DocScrutinizeryour problem01:20
TiagoTiagowhat's my problem?01:20
DocScrutinizeryeah what's your problem??01:20
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DocScrutinizerwhich brings us back to [2010-08-10 00:05:17] <DocScrutinizer> TiagoTiago: why should it?01:21
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SpeedEviltrumee: It doesn't.01:21
SpeedEviltrumee: I don't remember which component it was on, it wasn't on media playeer.01:22
SpeedEvilwasn't on pulseaudio01:22
SpeedEvilmaybe media01:22
trumeeSpeedEvil, hmm.01:22
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MohammadAG51PA fix?01:23
TiagoTiagoWell, other means to measure battery charge while charging doesn't seem to work, the battery icon oin the status bar for exaple doesn't inform anything about the current battery charge other than it's going up01:23
trumeeSpeedEvil, media and fixed brings up 233 bugs01:23
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MohammadAG51bug 719001:24
povbotBug music stutters while multi-tasking, especially browsing web01:24
trumeeMohammadAG51, yeah. any idea which one is that?01:24
MohammadAG51faster than a bot01:24
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trumeeMohammadAG51, thanks for pointing that out01:27
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tybolltecoach users?01:28
tybolltw/ the symbian app similar to ecoach you get altitude measurements as well - guess ecoach doesn't extract that from the gps?01:29
tybolltare there other better apps for this?01:29
lcuktybollt, contact sampo, he is very receptive to feedback01:30
SpeedEvilyes, that one MohammadAG5101:30
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alturiaktybollt: it does, altough not very accurate. gps recorder is quite nice, too. they both have their use.01:31
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TiagoTiagois it possible to filter The GPS coordinates before sending them to programs reading them, somthing like an average of the last few N positions weigthed by precision:01:33
TiagoTiagoweighted by their precisions*01:35
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SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: why?01:37
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: contains some GPS accuracy info01:37
SpeedEvilI have not yet extracted noise info01:37
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TiagoTiagoi left mapero running over nigth by the window and the track recorded when i woke up was filled with spikes hundred of meters away forom the center position01:38
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SpeedEvilWindows can be opaque.01:39
SpeedEvilSome energy saving windows have coatings that block GPS01:39
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TiagoTiagothe other day driving around the track recorded appeared to be the path of someonee playing GTA, with a tank blasting thru buildings01:40
TiagoTiagolike on that movie ( i think it was a 007 one) with the tank doing powerslides and demolishimg brick walls01:42
SpeedEvilSame with cars01:42
SpeedEvilsome block GPS01:42
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BCMM_it would be nice if applications that can leave a track could be configured to leave a gap where the error is above a specified amount01:43
TiagoTiagothe point is, with a filtering like i suggested, i expect the coordinates programs get would  appear much closer to reality01:43
alturiaksame for ecoach, it only polls every two seconds - and sometimes, the position is way off, leaving a nasty spike in the track01:43
BCMM_if i'm walking about in town with maep running, it leaves spiky patterns on the trace every time i go into a building01:44
SpeedEvilalso - you need a decent signal if you're expecting it to do dynamics01:44
SpeedEvilBCMM: you can.01:44
TiagoTiagoif the coordinate has a precision of hundreds of meters it would have very little weight01:44
alturiakeven in the field, without anything blocking gps ;-)01:44
SpeedEvilBCMM: though only with grep01:44
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TiagoTiagospikes would be significantly reduced and made closer to more accurate emeasurements01:46
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TiagoTiagoat least if the algorithm works as i expect01:47
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: The GPS outputs confidence figures.01:47
SpeedEvilYou can use those.01:47
SpeedEvilMuch stuff does not.01:47
SpeedEvilThis is a bug on behalf of the apps.01:47
TiagoTiagomany do show the circle of where you might be, but they still have the coordinate umtouvhed01:48
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TiagoTiagothey are aware of the estimated error margin, they just don't do much about it01:49
SpeedEvilthey can't.01:49
TiagoTiagowith my algorithm they might01:50
SpeedEvilOr rather - they can't magically guess what is the position is.01:50
SpeedEvilI'm actually 1/4 through coding a software GPS in assembler for stm32.01:50
TiagoTiagomy algorithm should help them make a more accurate guess about the real position01:51
SpeedEvilWhat algorithm - sorry - I missed that.01:51
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TiagoTiagocurrent position = average of N previous positions weigthed by their respective precisions01:52
TiagoTiago = average of current position and the last N positions*01:53
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Robot101yeah the reporting location in your status had loads of fun bugs there01:55
TiagoTiagoif it works as i expect it to, it shloud reducee significcanrtly the imprecision spikes in thee recorded track keeping the points closer to the real coordinates01:55
SpeedEvilThat works but only if you know it's static01:55
cehtehnote that every averaging also induces latency01:55
Robot101if the accuracy plummets and the position goes miles away, but your previous position was within the tolerance, and more accurate, it makes more sense not to jump your position around01:55
TiagoTiagoshloud work for moving measuremens as well, might need to also weight by how recent each prwvious measwuremnt is01:56
SpeedEvilThere is also the issue that most apps don't get the difference between GPS and cell positioning.01:56
cehtehdoesnt i have a 'precision' for each measurement?01:56
SpeedEvilcell positioning can be hundreds of km out01:56
SpeedEvilyes, it does01:56
TiagoTiagowhat is the precision reported for cell towers?01:56
Robot101yeah, the jumping from GPS to cell positioning would make people jump cities on their IM status depending if they had GPS or not01:56
SpeedEvilthough there is proabbly a better link to liblocation01:56
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cehtehso you can include that in your averaging .. if accuracy drops AND the position is farer of than with the current speed would be possible then just drop it or average it .. but if accuracy is high give a higher preference to the current measurement and dont put much weight into averaging previous positions01:57
cehtehthere is this 'jspeed' applet which is pretty unuseable because it doesnt make any averaging btw ..01:59
TiagoTiagoi' not saying my algorithm is perfect, but i expect it to work much better than raw coordinates except in worse case scenarios (where it probably wouldn't be worst than raw measurements in terms of how wrong it can get)01:59
cehtehdoes liblocation really provide raw data? i expect its already a bit corrected and averaged in the gps02:00
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cehtehfirmware stack or whatever works there02:00
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TiagoTiagois that what mappero uses?02:01
cehtehno idea02:01
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TiagoTiagothere is a tiny nic the smooth part of the "arm" of my glasses gthat goes behind my left ear, barelly noticeable but it's gradually scraping the skin there :(02:03
BCMM_TiagoTiago: you could cover it with a tiny amount of nail varnish02:04
TiagoTiagohm, that sounds like it might work, thanx :)02:04
BCMM_nail varnish has a multitude of good uses02:05
SpeedEvilcehteh: It does not.02:07
BCMM_or you could use tape, since glasses with sticky tape on them earn you geek points02:07
SpeedEvilcehteh: Raw data in this case would mean raw psuedoranges - which are the raw relative doppler rates to the satellites.02:08
TiagoTiagohow those military things work qith GPS, balls cooking powerdull antennas?02:08
SpeedEvilcehteh: It does not provide that.02:08
TiagoTiagodamn typos02:08
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SpeedEvilcehteh: It provides position only, and information about the errors on that position.02:08
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SpeedEvil(well - velociry and error velocity too)02:09
SpeedEvilAlso sats and their signals.02:09
SpeedEvilBut no more detailed information that would let you usefully postprocess the signal.02:09
TiagoTiagoisn't actually signal/noise ratio?02:09
SpeedEvilI have a couple of days of data that I need to analyse.02:09
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: No, it's really horribly more complex than that.02:10
TiagoTiagoisn't it*02:10
BCMM_TiagoTiago: which military things?02:10
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: It's 'basically' the error dispersion found by the kalman filter that's inside the GPS.02:10
TiagoTiagodrones, bomb disposal bots, those darpa driverless racers etc02:10
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BCMM_TiagoTiago: there are certain types of GPS signals that are used only by the US mil, and iirc the workings of some of them are secret02:11
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: Each sat broadcasts its timestamp. The GPS takes the known orbits, the timestamps, and works out a position from these.02:11
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TiagoTiagoi thought they let civilians use GPS to the full centimeter precision02:11
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: If there are 4 sats, you can work out an unambiguous 3D position. (if they are in the right place)02:11
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: If there are 5 sats however - the errors won't quite match up, and you cannot 'solve' the position to a point - it comes out as a probability.02:12
SpeedEvilIf you ignore any satellite you get a different solution.02:12
TiagoTiagowouldn't 3 sats be enough to get a position on earth and a position in earth's orbit?02:12
SpeedEvilno, you need time too.02:12
BCMM_TiagoTiago: i believe they subsequently got even better military signals02:12
SpeedEvil3 sats give a 2d fix.02:12
SpeedEvilWith WAAS/EGNOS/... you get a ~2m error.02:13
BCMM_TiagoTiago: - hopelessly vague, i'm afraid02:13
TiagoTiagodistance from e points should be enough for two possible 3d coordinates02:13
SpeedEvilWith local differential GPS - which costs lots - you get centimetric.02:13
TiagoTiago3 points*02:13
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: you don't have a perfect time.02:14
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: so you need 4 for a 3d fix02:14
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: yep, that unawareness-of-precision thing in most apps is rather annoying. Fahrplan for example gave me wrong schedule for my bus, as it picked the station from a raw-position that libloc delivered 4s after switching on, and the station was off 1500m02:14
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SpeedEvilAnd the m-code docs are published in _lots_ more detail than that.02:15
SpeedEvilIt's 'just' the key which is secret.02:15
DocScrutinizerwell, thank god it's been raining cats and dogs02:15
BCMM_is it possible for an application that doesn't know about precision to be given the cell-tower location?02:16
SpeedEvilOr rather.02:16
TiagoTiagotime between the signal sent and you getting it gives you distance, kmowing the position of the 3 emiters and your distsnce to the  should let you calculate 2 possible positions02:16
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: you don't know the local time though02:16
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: Being one microsecond off in your local time gets you a position error of 300m.02:17
BCMM_(i presume that when i see 0 sats and my location is given as a stationary point that is not where i am with an error of many hundreds of meters, that position is the cell tower i'm connected to, right?)02:17
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: So you have to solve for time.02:17
SpeedEvilBCMM: yes02:17
TiagoTiagowell, up to the precision of the devicem's internal clock02:17
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: which is perhaps accurate to a microsecond a second - best case.02:17
BCMM_on a sorta-related thing, any advances on setting the n900's clock from GPS?02:18
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: The local clock - without lock to the satellites - is no better than around 100ppm.02:18
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BCMM_last i heard, it basically didn't work02:18
SpeedEvilBCMM: it is not meant to.02:18
povbotBug 10163: GPS does not automatically set time of device.02:19
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: So you have to also solve for time, to get an accurate position. Hence 3 sats = 2d fix, 4 sats = 3d02:19
TiagoTiagoisn't there some sort of phase detection or even differences in the signal reeceived that would let you measure time with more p.recision than the devices clock's?02:20
BCMM_so when you set it to automatically update the time, how is it supposed to do it? NTP? something in one of the GSM protocols?02:20
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: try to stop speed of light with a stopwatch ;-)02:20
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BCMM_ah, bug says GSM - so if it doesn't work for me, it's probably my network's fault?02:21
DocScrutinizerinternal clock is off by seconds rather than microseconds, and microseconds is quite sufficiently inaccurate a granularity even02:21
lcukDocScrutinizer, cannot stop it, but I can send it on a U turn02:21
DocScrutinizerlcuk: I *knew* you'd say that :-D02:21
TiagoTiagothe fourth is to calibrate the time imprecision?02:22
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DocScrutinizerthe fourth is the clock02:22
DocScrutinizer*IS* even02:22
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SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: yes02:23
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: well - no02:23
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: All four are used to derive both the local time, and a position.02:23
DocScrutinizerto be precise, you get just ratiometric values for distance to 4 sats first02:23
* lcuk likes answers like that02:23
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: one is not used as a clock02:23
DocScrutinizerit's jsut when you finally decided your exact position then you can get microsecond accurate time from sats02:24
lcukthe results from each sat allows cross referencing between them02:24
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SpeedEvilIn 'reality' all of the differential ranges and range-rates of the satellites are thrown together in a kalman filter, which spits out position/velocity/uncertainty values.02:24
* lcuk considered this sort of algorithm for positioning n900s using sound o_O02:25
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TiagoTiagoplease elaborate02:25
DocScrutinizerdistance to 1.sat=1.0, to 2nd=1.0000235, to 3rd=0.94598, to 4th=1.10023402:25
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SpeedEvil - read that.02:25
DocScrutinizerthis together with pos of the 4 sat gives you your pos02:26
SpeedEvilYou don't get distances, you get psuedoranges.02:26
TiagoTiagoi mean the audio GPS thing02:26
SpeedEvilThe satellites all broadcast the current time.02:26
SpeedEvilah - right02:26
SpeedEvilSonar should be quite possible in a limited form02:26
lcukTiagoTiago, just part of doing this  it was one of a few algorithms I looked at02:27
lcukSpeedEvil, how often is timestamp transmitted?02:28
lcukor is that the signal itself02:28
SpeedEvillcuk: the simple answer to that is 'once every 30s'02:28
lcukfair enough02:28
SpeedEvillcuk: this is somewhat misleading, as this is how often it transmits an actual time.02:28
SpeedEvillcuk: however - there are implied timestamps by the format of the signal at 1/1024th of a second, 1/50th of a second, and also smaller intervals.02:29
DocScrutinizerthe signal is phaselocked to time though02:29
SpeedEviloh - 6s too02:29
SpeedEvil6s data packets, one of 5 has a timestamp in, transmitted at 50bps, with each bit repeated 20 times.02:30
lcukand I am guessing doppler is taken into account on the recv, but I will read the rest of the posting you did02:30
SpeedEvillcuk: basically, yes. Doppler, and yourvelocity + satvelocity02:30
SpeedEvilAnd local clock drift02:30
lcukit doesn't know your vel02:30
DocScrutinizerbasically doppler is one of the obstacles why you need so high effort to really receive the sats02:31
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lcukthe bigger obstacle literally is buildings and reflections02:31
SpeedEvillcuk: It does not generate every position from scratch. It uses the current estimate of position to work out the time, and fresh position info from the changes in signal.02:31
SpeedEvilAnd multipath adds fun.02:31
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SpeedEvilBasically you can ignore any 'late' reflections, if you do things carefully, without much affecting the ignal.02:32
TiagoTiagohm, GPS signal bounces, i hadn't thought about that before, interesting issue02:32
SpeedEvillcuk: Multipath that is shorter than 1us is 'simply' ignored.02:32
SpeedEvillcuk: It can - with more smarts be used to augment the signal, and improve lock.02:33
DocScrutinizerI'm frequently 'mirrored' inside a building with high wall in front of me, rather than correct pos outside02:33
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TiagoTiagodoes the N900 uses the bounces for enhacement?02:33
DocScrutinizerjust when a less tall building is behind me though02:34
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: Essentially nothing is known about the algorithms of the n900 gps02:34
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DocScrutinizerso most of 'visible' sky is by refexion on that high building02:34
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lcukdoes your position actually show reflected?02:35
* lcuk rarely attempts gps other than in car02:35
DocScrutinizerincl reversal of velocity and direction02:36
DocScrutinizerwell not velocity02:36
DocScrutinizerbut movement vector and change of pos, so02:36
infobotThe key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT", "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED",  "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119.02:36
TiagoTiagois the GPS code just a binary blob or a firmware running separatedly in the GPS chip itself?02:37
SpeedEvilIt's inside the cellmo02:38
DocScrutinizeror maybe even in rapuyama02:38
DocScrutinizerthough the ds of the gps chip itself suggests there's not much in rapuyama done for calculation of GPS02:39
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DocScrutinizerposiibly A(gps)02:39
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SpeedEvilI diddn't see one.02:40
DocScrutinizerhmm, poroduct blabla sheet02:40
SpeedEvilI don't think I saw that.02:40
DocScrutinizer"low workload, siutable even for weak AP systems" bla bla bla02:41
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TiagoTiago_damn router keeps crashing and needing to be booted :(02:43
DocScrutinizerhmm, on re-reading it, it's not exactly mentioned02:46
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TiagoTiago_I wonder if it's actually someone attacking it from the internet02:47
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TiagoTiago_did i  miss anything while my connection was down?02:50
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DocScrutinizerwell, it says 'one-chip-solution to bring GPS to any cellphone" (OWTTE), that makes me think there's no blob on rapuyama02:51
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DocScrutinizerI nevertheless wonder what's that "Software GPS Engine"02:53
DocScrutinizerblock sitting outside everything02:53
SpeedEvilschematic says I2C02:54
SpeedEvilIt's like neo1973 I guess02:54
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SpeedEviland n81002:54
SpeedEvilthe GPS chip is a softradio. It handles all of the hard-realtime, and correlators.02:55
SpeedEvilAnd RF frontendy stuff.02:55
SpeedEvilThe CPU is left with position calculation, and configuring all of these to scan for sats based on 'stuff'.02:55
SpeedEvilThe GPS chip has no idea at all of position, only PRNs and relative samplerates02:56
DocScrutinizermaybe, maybe not. IIRC it's same chip like in N810 though, and there we know about the driver being a big bad blob, no?02:56
TiagoTiago_soft radio? does this means programs can use it for other purposes?02:56
DocScrutinizeryes, like creating a general spectrogram of GPS band02:57
TiagoTiago_do want02:57
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago_: No.02:58
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago_: It means in principle it can be flexibly configured to recieve GPS signals.02:58
DocScrutinizerit's as much a softradio as is the radio inside the broadcom BT chip02:58
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago_: but you can't do this, as it's connected to teh cellmo02:58
DocScrutinizerexactly, and I guess that's why AGPS over WLAN doesn't fly. Not even if your position is guessed correctly to the .001 lon/lat02:59
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DocScrutinizersimply because there's no way at all to talk to the GPS from outside to substitute the celltower based assist03:00
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TiagoTiago_is it closed due to legislations, money or what?03:01
DocScrutinizer'A' living in his own little autistic rapuyama world03:01
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SpeedEvilTiagoTiago_: lack of spec to open it, and lack of desire03:02
DocScrutinizerit is closed due to design is not containing any chromium03:02
TiagoTiago_do you know of a program that shows where the satellites are in the sky in real tiime?03:02
SpeedEvilI forget which app it was though03:03
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TiagoTiago_can you find out with less work than it would take me?03:03
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DocScrutinizertangoGPS on FR, and the winmo app on Omnia900003:03
DocScrutinizerthe one was correct when looking down on it, the other when holding it up to the sky :-P03:04
TiagoTiago_FR is Fremantle?03:04
TiagoTiago_anym for the N900?03:05
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SpeedEvilI vaguely recall it was ecoach03:05
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DocScrutinizerheh, maybe...03:06
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: what was the prog to delete the stored pickle (alm/eph)?03:07
DocScrutinizerI wouldn't feel surprised to find strace showing it only talks to modem03:07
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DocScrutinizerthat's be a really good explanation why they came not up with a "rm /etc/foo/bar" line03:08
TiagoTiago_ seems interesting03:09
DocScrutinizerno it isn't03:09
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: it was in one of the GPS slow to lock sets.03:09
SpeedEvilerr bugs03:09
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago_: THIS is interesting:
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: ooh attachment, I see03:10
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DocScrutinizerwell, now for some walk and maybe test GPS a little :-D03:10
smharfinally, scout now searches notes and company as well.. I am happy :-)03:11
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TiagoTiago_smhar what does it say about his power level?03:15
SpeedEvil1DocScrutinizer: do you have lcuk's app?03:16
SpeedEvil1or do I mean luke-jrs.03:16
SpeedEvil1The GPS hardware logger03:16
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SpeedEvilah yes03:22
luke-jrSpeedEvil: now have GPRS/UMTS + GPS working on Gentoo… :D03:22
SpeedEvilyou mean on the phone?03:22
luke-jron N90003:23
TiagoTiagoHow can figure out why  microB keeps refreshing some pages making it unusablea?03:23
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TiagoTiagohelp please?03:26
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DocScrutinizerswitch off js03:30
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SpeedEvilany particular pages?03:32
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: that's a nice .c file, but I don't think I can't live on without compiling it right away03:32
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* GeneralAntilles yawns03:32
DocScrutinizermoo GeneralAntilles03:32
TiagoTiago and threads in talk.maemo.org03:33
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: it's nice in that it gives all of the data theGPS emits.I don't think I've seen a comparable logger03:33
DocScrutinizererrm, location test gui?03:33
DocScrutinizeror whatever it's called03:33
SpeedEvilhmm, true maybe03:33
TiagoTiagoSpeedEvil , and threads in for example03:36
SpeedEvilI diddddn't realise that was an answer03:37
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pupnikhere's an idea: next device -- support hardware mixing03:39
pupnikcat /proc/asound/pcm03:39
pupnik00-00: AIC34 tlv320aic3x-I2S-0 :  : playback 1 : capture 103:39
TiagoTiagodisabling JS doesn't seem to help :/03:40
SpeedEvilpastebin seems to work for me03:41
MohammadAG51on the N900? wfm03:41
DocScrutinizerpupnik: ??03:41
TiagoTiagoyeah, it's somthing on my device, other people tried it and told me it worked for them03:42
MohammadAG51rm /home/user/.mozilla/microb/prefs*03:42
MohammadAG51then restart all browser instances03:42
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TiagoTiagoi'll not loose boorkmarks, addressbar history, memorized passwords nor anything like that, will i?03:44
MohammadAG51only preferences03:45
pupnikDocScrutinizer: screw bluetooth headsets :)03:45
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DocScrutinizerpupnik: I don't get a word03:46
MohammadAG51neither do I03:47
smharTiagoTiago, what power level?03:48
pupnik00-00: emu10k1 : ADC Capture/Standard PCM Playback : playback 32 : capture 103:51
pupnik00-00: trident_dx_nx : Trident 4DWave : playback 32 : capture 103:52
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TiagoTiagois there a bug with leaving microB loading a page in the backgorund?03:56
TiagoTiagogah, even keeps refrshing now Dx03:57
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luke-jrDocScrutinizer: I'll have you know I got GPRS/UMTS and GPS working on Gentoo before Tonal and Spivak!03:58
TiagoTiagoneither disabling JS nor rm'ing the browser prefs made any difference :(03:58
TiagoTiagowhat could be causing this?03:59
pupnikwhat is the problem TiagoTiago04:01
luke-jrhe's been spamming it in here for a while now04:01
luke-jrsome crappy sites do some auto-refresh thing in microB04:01
TiagoTiagomicroB keeps refreshing some pages :(04:01
TiagoTiagoinckuding threads on talk.maemo.org04:02
pupniknever seen that, no idea as to cause04:03
luke-jrTiagoTiago: maybe some lame plugin?04:05
TiagoTiago"Redirection limit for this URL exceeded.  Unable to load the requested page.  This may be caused by cookies that are blocked."04:06
pupnikall soundcards should feature multichannel ADC/DAC with analog, digitally controled mixing :)04:06
TiagoTiagodoes that tell anything about the underlying issue?04:06
luke-jrpupnik: why?04:06
pupniksounds like somebody is doing backflips TiagoTiago04:07
TiagoTiagocookies are allowed btw04:07
pupnikdoes not sound like default behavior04:08
pupnik  there's a good mixer04:09
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Mr_Nobupronto you silver spoon up yourself asshole how you doing :)04:10
TiagoTiagono addons other than the ones that came with it04:12
pupnikmaybe this is the problem
TiagoTiagonothing like this on my desktop machine ( it's running WinXP though)04:14
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: OMG please reboot the fckng thing04:15
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TiagoTiagothe N900? This issue has been going on for swveral reboots already04:15
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DocScrutinizerthen seems you installed some crap04:16
DocScrutinizeror a virus did that for you04:16
TiagoTiagoperhaps, but i can't think of anyting that i installed that would be messing with microB04:17
TiagoTiagohow can i diagnose this in further details?04:18
DocScrutinizerno idea04:19
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DocScrutinizerask timeless04:19
TiagoTiagois he around right now?04:20
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TiagoTiagobtw, i get no issues when i try the sme pages with iceweasel04:20
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DocScrutinizerbut you can't remeber installing ANY app that _might_ interfere with html at large04:22
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luke-jrTiagoTiago: btw iceweasel would be messign with microB04:23
TiagoTiagothings were working for a long time after i installed Iceweasel04:23
TiagoTiagoreally? who was the genius that decided to make one program fuck up anlother one instead of leaving it alone and doing itms own thing?.04:24
pupnikDocScrutinizer: looking at /var/lib/pulse-nokia i see a lot of params that *might* be tweakable for better performance04:24
* DocScrutinizer shrugs and finally takes his walk04:24
pupnikor am i just praying to ....04:25
pupnikttyl maybe04:25
DocScrutinizerpupnik: interesting :-)04:25
DocScrutinizercya l8r04:25
pupnikgrep xprot /var/lib/pulse-nokia/*04:26
pupnikfor e.g.04:27
pupnikyeah ttyl04:27
TiagoTiagowhy would Iceweasel be messing with microB?04:27
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SpeedEviliceweasel cannot mess with microb04:31
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SpeedEvilthey are installed on different /'s04:31
TiagoTiagohm, Iceweasel isn't listed to uninstall, i think it came with EasyDeb04:32
MohammadAG51yes, that's a chroot, with settings stored in /.debian04:32
TiagoTiagosomeone here told me it was messing it up, the likelly cause of my issue with microB continuosly refreshing some pages04:33
SpeedEvilI don't think luke-jr is right about that.04:34
luke-jrjust a possibility04:34
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* TiagoTiago sights04:36
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pupniksight, then pull trigger slowly04:38
pupnik  cat vs bunny04:38
TiagoTiagobunnies are much more badassy@than most people expect04:39
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TiagoTiagoi've seen themfight off things like venomous snakes04:40
pupnikyeah but ... chickens break up rabbit fight
cehtehnever trust bunnies
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TiagoTiagoaw fuck, youtube is anlother page that keeps refrshing Dx04:41
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TiagoTiagois there a way i can see a log of what microB is thinking when it keeps refreshing a page?04:44
SpeedEvildon't think so04:44
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TiagoTiagohow about the page source code as microB sees it?04:47
TiagoTiagoohwhyme, and the http headers too if possible04:47
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MohammadAG51TiagoTiago, i suggest rejoining in about 6 hours04:47
MohammadAG51timeless should be here by then04:47
TiagoTiagoi'll try to be here again when timeless is, thanx04:49
Jucato"timeless should be here by that time" ...04:50
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pupnik  ASCII Portal on OpenPandora... is badass05:00
Jucatolol that is cool!05:05
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cehtehehh where to get this ascii-portal?05:10
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cehtehfound it05:11
TiagoTiagothe official site has binaries for x86 and sourcecode05:12
pupnikTwo fullsize SD slots05:13
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DocScrutinizernow that's quite interesting. While netmon didn't see any change in Cell-ID, the location test on ACWP (no sats) had a quite decent idea of my changing location. Even though it jumped to rather interesting addresses that didn't look to me like BTS tower locations but nevertheless fixed to a certain street and house05:15
DocScrutinizerthen when cell-ID actually changed, the location didn't05:16
SpeedEvilI've been assuming it's reading location that the network tells it somehow05:16
SpeedEvilI haven't gone into details though05:16
DocScrutinizerwell, when location and BTS are completely unrelated wrt to changing their values...05:18
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DocScrutinizerand the locations - tbh - looked to me like it were of higher probability for me to usually be there or been there before05:19
DocScrutinizermaybe the A database is filled with neighbour-cell | GPS tupels I previously produced05:20
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DocScrutinizeror netmon is simply buggy05:21
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DocScrutinizerit locked quite several times, and I restarted it frequently. But maybe it still didn't get the changes in BTS Cell-ID for some reason. At least for me it seemed like there were rather few - too few - cell handovers05:23
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SpeedEvilnetmon has crashed several times for me05:24
TiagoTiagowhy didn't they make the stylus' profile assymetrical so you wouldn't be able to insert it almost all the qway in only to realise it's backwards?05:26
SpeedEvilBackwards means you can easily pull it out05:26
DocScrutinizerthat's a feature05:26
TiagoTiagoi've never had any difivulty pulling it out from the "locked" position....05:27
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DocScrutinizerfile a bug ticket05:28
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: It's harder to pull out with love.05:29
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TiagoTiagowell, if it actuslly helps some people i would feel bad asking it to stop helping them....05:29
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luke-jrTiagoTiago: I need to use nails to pull it out of locked05:29
TiagoTiagoah, hm *nods*05:29
TiagoTiagoi haven't tried using the N900 with gloves yet05:30
luke-jrthe only stylus that I haven't seen a need to invert on occasion was once again my C76005:31
luke-jrits stylus sticks out past the case05:31
luke-jrand it's round, so you can just rotate if you stick it in wrong05:31
TiagoTiagosomeone should make gloves with fingernails for precise tapping in cold weather (and mincreased easiness of pulling out things like the stylus)05:31
luke-jr(almost automatic to me)05:31
luke-jrTiagoTiago: us men don't usually have long nails in the first place05:31
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: it's not easy05:32
SpeedEvilTiagoTiago: As the fingernails are attached quite firmly to the finger.05:32
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DocScrutinizertipless gloves05:32
SpeedEvilIt's really hard to do that with gloves - unless they're tight enough to stop circulation.05:32
MacerTiagoTiago: don't they use like.. sausages in japan?05:32
DocScrutinizerexisting since dunno when05:32
SpeedEvilthat too.05:33
Macerfrozen sausages or something?05:33
TiagoTiagoi've just clipped my nails the other day and they still work just fine for precoision tapping and poking the dinks to pull out the stylus etc05:33
Maceri miss the stylus on screen kb :(05:33
Macerthe peckboard was nice to have sometimes on the n8x005:33
Macerfuck it's hot05:34
DocScrutinizerrevisionist - anti-fingerfiendly-party05:34
MacerDocScrutinizer: haha05:34
Macermaemo was best before it went all thumbs ;)05:34
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DocScrutinizerarguably a point05:36
DocScrutinizerbut then there was D-pad05:36
TiagoTiagonailpoking still works quite well, and the N900 got a builtin stylus for when you need one05:36
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DocScrutinizerwell, that's not the UI-paradigma anymore05:37
DocScrutinizernext device will be without D-pad, kbd, and stylus05:37
DocScrutinizerand that's been it for me then05:38
TiagoTiagoan analog nub would be great05:38
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SpeedEvilI want atrackpoint,yes.05:39
TiagoTiagohom, would touch tecnology work on non-flat surfaces?05:39
SpeedEvilIhave  lapto, andan external keyboard withtackpoint. Works for me.05:39
DocScrutinizeroptical mouse, upside down05:39
SpeedEvilI also need to vacuum my keyboard05:39
DocScrutinizerc-ts yes. r-ts no05:40
TiagoTiago@little glass nub with pressure sensitive touch technology would fit well with the lack of  moving parts while dtill providing an analog nub05:40
TiagoTiagoa little*05:40
TiagoTiagothat thing would probably scratch like hell though05:41
DocScrutinizerthough with oil separator technology they probably could even build spherical r-ts05:43
TiagoTiagowhar does "r-ts" stands for?05:43
DocScrutinizerbut honestly - who'd want to get such crap?05:43
DocScrutinizerresistive touchscreen05:44
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TiagoTiagoaren't there multitouch resistives?05:44
DocScrutinizeryes there are05:45
TiagoTiagocapcitive doesn't work well with gloves and nails, do they?05:45
TiagoTiagothen why people insist capacitive is better?05:46
DocScrutinizerit's allegedly smoother to operate, or somesuch05:47
TiagoTiagofruit induced missdirected hype?05:47
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TiagoTiagoi see05:47
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SpeedEvilI love apple.05:47
SpeedEvilI have 4 trees.05:47
luke-jrpersonally, I'd be annoyed if I couldn't wipe my screen w/o triggering touches05:48
* DocScrutinizer wipes away a tear shed for the forgotten bananas in my fridge05:48
TiagoTiagodon't  bananas go black in the fridge?05:49
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: ACK05:49
DocScrutinizeryep they did05:49
SpeedEvilI typically keep them in the cupboard for around a month05:49
SpeedEvilwell - 3 weeks05:49
SpeedEvilAS long as you don't bang them - they keep well05:50
TiagoTiagoand once they go black, they don't come back05:50
SpeedEvilAfter about 3 weeks they stop getting sweeter though, and go overripe.05:50
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* luke-jr notes black bananas aren't bad05:55
* DocScrutinizer notes jazz is not dead05:56
DocScrutinizerit just smells funny05:57
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SpeedEvilYeah. If they haven't been bruised, they are fine.06:00
SpeedEvilI'm shopping infrequently ATM.06:00
SpeedEvilAnd hence get about 8Kg of banannas at a time.06:01
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luke-jrdid that big black ant I squished seriously just try to bite me?06:01
TiagoTiagogoing down fighting06:02
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luke-jrso I just tore apart my 802.11b CompactFlash card…06:05
luke-jrsilly me thinking I could make it smaller :/06:05
kwtmI see that DocScrutinizer, who set this channel topic, is connected with OpenMoko.  Is OpenMoko connected with Maemo?  Or is it a separate system?06:09
DocScrutinizernothing in common (well except that linux tag maybe)06:09
SpeedEvilopenmoko is completely unrelated.06:10
kwtmOk that's what I thought.06:10
Ken-YoungThe channel has become a harbor for Openmoko refugees.06:10
kwtmDo they have papers or are they illegal refugees, waiting to be deported back to OpenMokoLand?06:11
Ken-YoungWe'll be tortures by the agents of G.L.A.M.O.06:11
ieatlintdude, don't even say glamo06:12
infobotKen-Young meant: We'll be tortured by the agents of G.L.A.M.O.06:12
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DocScrutinizeropenmoko land has been split in two halves, and the one I were living at got nuked off the earth06:12
ieatlintopenmoko was a test to see how much people could flake06:12
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kwtmWell, I'm glad Maemo has been around for a while, but I understand that now we're just waiting for the Next Best Thing (Meego) Which Hasn't Happened Yet.06:13
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TermanaN900hey hey06:14
DocScrutinizersome are whaiting. But they won't have as much fun as those who just joy away with maemo06:14
DocScrutinizerI'm not waiting for the pudding while about to eat the fish06:15
TiagoTiagoWhy does the N900 makes the keypress sound when i switch to the VNC client window in Windows that is conencted to it?06:15
kwtmI hope that means Maemo will be around for a while.  I just want something that I can move files onto, without needing special apps (iPhone) or special formats (PalmOS) just to read.  I would have gotten the Palm Pre (which I think ran Linux?) but that phone doesn't even take a SIM card, so that got shot down...06:15
TiagoTiagoactually it sounds like the screen tap sound not the keypress sound06:15
Ken-Youngkwtm, I thought a GSM version of the Pre had been released in Europe.   Am I wrong?06:16
TiagoTiagoeven if i switch to the window with alt-tab instead of clicking on it06:16
* DocScrutinizer hands medal for master of questions to TiagoTiago06:16
kwtmKen-Young: I didn't know that.  I guess I could have gotten the Palm Pre, then, although I don't live in Europe.  The way they tie phones to cell service providers here is ridiculous.06:17
TiagoTiagoi hope i'm not being unpleasant with my curiosities o.o06:17
DocScrutinizeractually I got a highlight regex to color in red every post of TiagoTiago that does not end in a "?"06:17
TiagoTiagodoes this bypasses it?06:18
TiagoTiagohm, didn't paste right06:18
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: you even answer your own questions :-D great06:19
TiagoTiagotoo bad it doesn't happen all the time :,/06:19
DocScrutinizerwhen it's the screentap sound then probably it's triggered by an X event06:20
TiagoTiagohm, typing too fast via VNC doesn't work all that well somtimes06:20
DocScrutinizerkwtm: you're better off with N90006:21
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DocScrutinizerkwtm: and yes, maemo won't vanish this year, and probably not next as well06:21
kwtmDocScrutinizer: I agree.  But do you remember how mine kept crashing with the infinite boot-up sequence ("Forever Dots") and then I returned it and bought a new one?  And then that one kept crashing?06:21
TiagoTiagobig desktop keyboard that i don't have to carry the weight does have it's benefits :)06:22
kwtmTiagoTiago might remember it too--you answered one of my questions on the forum.06:22
kwtmSo... I returned the second N900 too, for a refund.  Guess what?06:22
kwtmI bought a third one.06:23
TiagoTiagoSame glitch?06:23
kwtmNow, if that's not dedication to the N900, I don't know what is.  I haven't even been able to really USE my N900 yet...06:23
TiagoTiagopoor thing06:23
DocScrutinizerkwtm: there's some reports about users that got really bad luck and had two bummers in a row06:24
TiagoTiagoperhaps it's all fromt he same botched batch06:24
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TiagoTiagoall stocked in the service center06:24
kwtmI seem to be narrowing in on the problem.  I have a theory that would explain all the salient points, including why I'm the only one with this error...06:24
TiagoTiagorelative air humidity?06:24
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kwtmTiagoTiago: Good theory; that's why I made sure I bought mine over the Internet, whereas the first two were stocked at a local store.06:24
TiagoTiagoi see06:25
kwtmI think it's a software problem, not hardware, since there are THREE different N900's with the same problem.06:25
luke-jrmy C760 won't power on anymore, even with AC06:25
kwtmMy best theory so far is that the N900 invokes the ash shell on bootup, and it runs "~/.profile".06:25
luke-jrkwtm: uh, duh?06:26
DocScrutinizersensible approach06:26
kwtmI'm trying to remember if "~/.profile" is run on every invocation or only on interactive shell...06:26
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DocScrutinizerhmm, probably is somewhere on line 4956 of man ash06:27
kwtm"~/.profile" does not exist by default, but I created one.  It contains one line.  If that file is causing the error, it might explain why no one else has encountered it.06:28
DocScrutinizeralso it's messybox err busybox, which doesn't exactly help06:28
kwtmIt's because I am SOOooo 1337 that I am capable of crashing the N900!!!  Yeah, that's it!!  I'm so 1337 that I can even crash it without me knowing why!06:28
TiagoTiagoit's instinctive :P06:29
TermanaN900if you were that 1337 youd know why your crashing it06:29
kwtmOkay, maybe I'm not so 1337.  Maybe I'm just 1336.06:29
DocScrutinizeranyway messing with system boot shouldn't hinder a clean reinstall of rootfs that should fix al kinds of bugs of that class06:30
DocScrutinizerno need to swap device06:31
kwtmDocScrutinizer: Yeah... problem is, if I can fiddle with it and cause it to nearly-brick requiring a reflash, then the phone is unusable until I get back to a place where I have access to my laptop.06:31
kwtmSo, I'm really REALLY hoping I can prove that it's my ~/.profile, which would let me use and rely on the N900...06:31
TiagoTiagosomeone should a release a reflashing device powered by a few AA batteries you just pull it out of your pocket, stick it in and let it do it's thing06:31
DocScrutinizerguess what we'll call that thing06:32
kwtmWell, in my opinion, it should have been built-in to the N900 (or at least reflash it to a recovery mode where you can do nothing but make phone calls --at least then I'd have a phone to use06:32
DocScrutinizerN900 with hostmode :-P06:32
TermanaN900luke-jr, how did you get gprs working in Gentoo?06:32
luke-jrTermanaN900: ofono06:33
DocScrutinizerkwtm: seems such recovery mode is already available06:33
TiagoTiagosome sort of phone + console basic firmware for on device debricking would be quite the thing06:33
luke-jrkwtm: I'm so 1337 that I just cut myself (blood flowing fast!) ripping metal apart06:33
kwtmDocScrutinizer: Oh?  Do tell!  I actually don't mind a crashing phone but I do mind if I can't reboot it while on one of my transpacific flights.06:34
TermanaN900luke-jr, hmm did you pull the latest git head? version .25 doesnt seem to play nice with the modem06:34
DocScrutinizerit's called boot menu06:34
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kwtmluke-jr: Sorry, we finished with that hoke 5 minutes ago.06:34
luke-jrTermanaN900: plus a patch sent to the ofono ML today06:34
kwtmluke-jr: s/hoke/joke/06:35
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TiagoTiagointeresting, with VNC right and middle clicking work just fine in Iceweasel06:36
luke-jrTiagoTiago: of course?06:38
TiagoTiagothey could have removed the assignments for those buttons isince the device doesn't have them06:39
TiagoTiagohm, i can also send F-keys, nice06:39
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luke-jrTiagoTiago: my N900 has a rightclick06:40
TiagoTiagoit does/06:41
TiagoTiagois it acessible with the hardware keys/buttons in the device?06:42
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luke-jrtap and hold06:42
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luke-jronce again I work a miracle06:43
luke-jrmy CompactWLAN card wasn't working anymore06:43
luke-jrso I tore it apart and scotch-taped it back together06:43
luke-jrnow my C760 can get online again06:43
TiagoTiagooooh, i wasn't aware that was actually mapped to a different input instead of just being a functionality with the main button, thanx for the info :D06:45
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luke-jrsad fact: I haven't touched the software on my C760 in like 3 or 4 years, and it's running 2.6.23, newer than N810's latest working 2.6.21…06:45
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luke-jrbuilt 2.6.23 for C760 Nov 4 200706:46
TiagoTiagois there a middle click trick somewhere too?V06:47
luke-jrjust do a left click at the same time as a right click06:47
TiagoTiagoWhat is it/06:47
TiagoTiagobut there are no two buttons, it's the same one for left and right click.....06:48
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luke-jrTiagoTiago: nevertheless, that is how to do it06:56
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DocScrutinizer:-P hehehe06:57
TiagoTiagothat's like how the headless mule breathes fire out of her nostrils?06:57
DocScrutinizerTiagoTiago: btw it's completely useless to try and fool my statistics with things like \/06:59
TiagoTiagowhen i type too fast via VNC the shift key and the /? key seem to have the start and end  loose synchrony07:00
DocScrutinizerwill get accounted as even two question posts :-D07:00
TiagoTiagoi was meaning for it to come out a ? but it didn't for some reason07:00
TiagoTiagoi wasn't trying to bypass your filter at all07:01
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* DocScrutinizer wonders if you couldn't assign shift-rightclick to MMB07:03
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luke-jrDocScrutinizer: maybe with XInput 207:04
TiagoTiagohm, interesting, even though the  ? and the / are different keys on the N900 hardware, via VNC they are the same like on the desktop keyboard, responding the same way to shift being held07:04
TiagoTiagolol, where did the : come from?07:04
luke-jrTiagoTiago: … you don't know what abstraction means, do you?07:04
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TiagoTiagoi'm trying to understand who is deciding whether to type a / or a ?07:05
TiagoTiagothat was just tapping on the key and on shift without trying to have any synch in the tappings07:06
DocScrutinizerhope it's your brain. If not then there's something odd going on07:06
TiagoTiagowhere the fuck does the  : come from?07:06
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TiagoTiagomodifier+right click = middle click sounds like a great idea07:10
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luke-jrTiagoTiago: well, Shift-period is ':'07:12
luke-jrFn-period is '?'07:12
luke-jrat least on my N90007:12
TiagoTiagoso it is mixing the desktop keyboard with the N900 keyboard?07:13
TiagoTiagowhat is making it Fn instead of shift?V07:13
TiagoTiagoi wonder where those V are comming from07:13
TiagoTiagocool, different question marks07:13
luke-jr'V' is '/' minus Fn plus Shift07:13
TiagoTiagohm, interesting07:14
TiagoTiagotapping on shift fast somtimes produces Fn somehow07:14
luke-jrFn is above Shift07:15
TiagoTiagobut i'm taping on my desktop keyboard07:17
luke-jrhow do you figure btw?07:18
luke-jronly '?' and '/' require Fn07:18
luke-jrand presumably you're hitting those keys07:18
TiagoTiagohm, the  Fn is lagging07:18
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TiagoTiagoso intead of typing the characters themselves, it is pressing the hardware keyboard combination required to produce the character07:22
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luke-jrVNC tends to do stupid things :/07:23
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TiagoTiagois there some way to tunnel thru the mobile operator GPRS/3G/whatever connections without triggering chargers in a per byte plan/07:26
TiagoTiagoi went to the store today to investigate getting a data plan, it's ultrajeous how much they charge and the stuff they make to make you pay even more just to have the connection avaible07:30
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luke-jrTiagoTiago: sounds liek you live in the USA07:31
TiagoTiagonope, Brazil07:31
TiagoTiagopeople are worried about the scandal that will happen when the olypics and world cup come here and all the gringos gend up having to sell their moms to pay their mobile bills07:32
luke-jrTiagoTiago: you could try tunnelling over DNS without data service07:36
luke-jrbut over here that just got my domain blocked07:36
Ken-YoungT-Mobile USA charges $15/MByte in Europe, with no upper limit!07:36
luke-jrKen-Young: that's an utter ripoff07:36
Ken-Youngluke-jr, Yup, absolutely incredible.07:36
TiagoTiagohow can i set it up on the N900?07:37
TiagoTiagoalso, can i set it up so only the program i choose will use that connection so if they do charge it i can have more control?07:37
luke-jrTiagoTiago: no point, as it uses bandwidth even if idle07:40
luke-jrit would use probably at least 2x as much when in use, too07:41
TiagoTiagothe tunnel?V07:41
TiagoTiagoI mean, the tunnel will keep using sending and receiving data even while iddle?07:42
TiagoTiagono more conservative tunneling method?07:42
TiagoTiagothere is no*07:43
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DocScrutinizerKen-Young: get a PAYG card, they offer quite reasonable dataplans as an option07:53
DocScrutinizersuch like 10..20EUR / month for a limit of 5GB07:54
DocScrutinizeror 2GB07:54
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Shaan7I had the power kernel installed, tried to upgrade to the new version today. There were some dependency issues and the device has fallen into a reboot loop. Any other way or I have to reflash?07:57
DocScrutinizerKen-Young: make sure to activate the dataplan option *prior* to configuring your GPRS APN - some of the carriers allow access via same APN without dataplan, but then charge is similar to what you mentioned :-D07:57
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DocScrutinizerreflash kernel07:58
DocScrutinizerif that doesn't help, reflash whole COMBINED fiasco image07:58
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DocScrutinizeryou *could* try R&D mode, but I doubt that will lead anywhere, as even without bootloop - what you gonna do?07:59
DocScrutinizeranyway whatever you do, make sure you don't deplete your battery to a point where flashing becomes impossible. Bootlooping devices don't charge08:01
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TiagoTiagohm, the chick in the mobile company store told me it's not possible to have the same number in more than one chip, but what about cloning?08:04
TiagoTiagowith physical acess tot he chip and being the mobile company, shouldn't it be easy to clone a simcard?08:05
Macerfor them yes08:05
Macerrealistically they can do it no problem08:05
Macerbut it is company policy that they don't08:05
Macerfor whatever reason08:05
TiagoTiagowhy would they not want to do it?V08:05
Maceri tried the same thing .. i actually called up tmob to get it cloned :)08:05
Macerwho knows.08:05
Macerso people would be forced to get a 2nd number? :)08:05
Maceri looked for ways to do it but never found a real solution08:06
TiagoTiagoit wouldn't harm the network would it?08:06
Macerwell. i think if both sims are detected at the same time08:06
Maceryour acct gets disabled08:06
TiagoTiagothat would be bad08:06
Maceryeah :)08:06
DocScrutinizerthere's dual card and there's twin card08:07
DocScrutinizerboth perfectly normal offers of several carriers08:07
MacerDocScrutinizer: not from tmob ;)08:07
Maceri bet any chinese corner store can do it08:07
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TiagoTiagois there any phreaking tools avaible for the N900 that are not just CLI?08:11
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Macerbusiness multisim? :)08:11
Macerthat probably requires some outrageous overpriced business lease08:12
cehtehhaha GUI and phreaking .. c'mon08:12
Macerplus it's .de ;)08:12
DocScrutinizerMacer: please stop stating negatives as if you knew everything, while you in fact got no clue08:13
TiagoTiagowell, they did have a dialpad isntead of just poking wires together in the old days08:13
MacerDocScrutinizer: i'm just saying that for some reason or another it might be relative to europe08:13
Macerall i know is when i called tmobile they said they don't do it08:13
DocScrutinizerMacer: I think a called you on "please stop trolling" just yesterday08:14
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Macerand that is what i specifically asked for08:14
kwtmThis sounds like an interesting conversation, but how do I stop being away?08:14
Maceruhm. i'm not. why is it when people disagree with you it is automatically trolling? i called tmobile and they said they wouldn't do it. maybe they do it in europe for whatever reason but unfortunately that is not the case as far as i know08:14
kwtmOk.  Now, let's see what you said in the past 5 miniutes...08:14
DocScrutinizerMacer: It's not about disagreeing with any*body* - it's about disagreeing with the *facts*08:15
Macernow if you are able to show me a t-mobile site that says it is available in the US then by all means i'm open ears.. but considering i can't read .de the page you posted is irrelevant08:15
DocScrutinizerMacer: and learn to use google, they got a really somewhat working translation service08:16
Macerwhy? i don't live in .de08:16
TiagoTiagoyahoo somtimes does a better job, somtimes worse, but machine translation always sucks08:17
Macerbut i have been using google to see if they have the same service in the US and so far no luck08:17
kwtmMacer: Are you specifically referring to Tmobile in a certain country, like the USA, then?08:17
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Macerkwtm: yes ;)08:17
kwtmThx Macer.  I ask because I am also using Tmobile USA.08:17
RST38hIsn't the USA the only place that matters?08:18
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* RST38h finds a tree and climbs it, just in case.08:18
TiagoTiagodepends on the point of view08:18
kwtmRST38h: I just explained why I asked about Tmobile USA specifically.08:18
kwtmSo Tmobile USA said don't put the same number in more than one SIM?08:18
DocScrutinizerand I don't live in your country, and yet I got t-mo here and they offer twin err multisim. So your statement t-mo doesn't is false. And I don't like to discuss this topic further with you, you've been warned 3 times now to stop that negativism08:18
kwtmI've been thinking about doing that, actually, so thanks for the info.08:18
Macerkwtm: yeah. i noticed that. which is why i told you what i have discovered in my attempt to do so08:18
RST38hkwtm: AFAIK, if you insist, they will08:18
RST38hkwtm: And if they do not, you can always "lose" your current SIM.08:19
MacerRST38h: when i called it was like i was asking for a murder contract ;)08:19
cehtehconsidering the bad reputation the german telekom and tmobile has here in germany, i am only wondering how worse all the other US phone companies must be08:19
TiagoTiagowon't they block the old sim when they give you a new one?08:19
kwtmRST38h: Oh, you found that Tmobile USA was able to put the same number on two different SIMs, then?08:19
RST38hMacer: Isn't that always like this nowadays, when you call customer service in the US?08:19
kwtmBecause I did exactly that, and as TiagoTiago noted, they block the old SIM.08:19
Macerfair point ;)08:20
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: chill down, I don't see any difference in Macer's behaviour than what he has always done, even before you had ops in here. he's always been a bit of a joker/sarcastic git.08:20
RST38hkwtm: There is no technical problem with issuing two sims for the same account08:20
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MacerStskeeps: :) i just hate .de08:20
* Macer hides08:20
TiagoTiagoalso, don't report it as stolen, they might add the IMEI of the device using it tot he international blacklist08:20
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: yes, but it's just been too much the last few days08:20
RST38hkwtm: And the billing will be ok08:20
kwtmRST38h: I can neither agree nor disagree with you since I have no technical basis for going either way.  I just wanted to see what Tmobile would do with a new SIM that has is set to the same number as the old SIM.08:20
kwtmSo I think we're talking about two different things here.08:21
MacerDocScrutinizer: might be stress related08:21
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: on a sidenote, when did you sleep last? thought i saw you at midday yesterday :P08:21
RST38hkwtm: So, my guess is that the problem is with US TMobile being assholes, very typical for phone companies and US companies in general08:21
MacerRST38h: sure is08:21
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: the general mood is going down every day in this chan, and it's those statements that catalyse it08:21
DocScrutinizerI never sleep08:22
Macersleep is a crutch ;)08:22
RST38hkwtm: Russian MTS or Beeline will also issue you a second SIM card, in case you want to use it in a GPRS modem or something08:22
kwtmRST38h: While that may or may not be true, it doesn't seem relevant to Macer's info, which is that Tmobile USA seems to have a policy of not doing it (not letting the old SIM retain the phone number when setting assigning a number to the new SIM).08:22
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: i would point out other factors than that stuff (like people generally being abusive to eachother, including ops towards normal members)08:22
RST38hkwtm: So, absolutely no technical problem there08:22
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: as well as a general community decline08:22
kwtmRST38h: Well, that will be useful to know if I am using Russian MTS or Beeline.08:22
MacerRST38h: have you ever tried the chinese method of sim cloning?08:22
Macerwith the cloning kits?08:23
Stskeepsand get some sleep, no sleep causes paranoia :P08:23
RST38hMacer: Naah, no need to08:23
TiagoTiagois there a way i can fake the IMEI of my N900 to see if my operator respects the international blacklist without risking having the true IMEI added tot he blacklist or any other permanent harm?08:23
Maceroh :/08:23
RST38hBut it probably won't work on every sim08:23
* Stskeeps goes get coffee08:23
MacerUSA... money before freedom08:23
RST38hkwtm: There is an alternative method that should work with US TMobile08:23
RST38hMacer: Not money, PROFIT08:23
MacerRST38h: i don't think it does. i know there are quite a few that it doesn't work with08:23
MacerRST38h: hahaha... fair point again ;)08:23
RST38hMacer: And even that nowadays appears to be supplanted by ISSUES08:23
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: I'm far from paranoia :-D08:24
kwtmRST38h: I'm sure there are ways to do it.  But it's still useful information to me that Macer has asked Tmobile USA and Tmobile USA says don't do it.08:24
MacerRST38h: well. i'm sure t-mobile usa threw the patriot act in there somewhere08:24
RST38hkwtm: Get a family plan. They will issue you multiple SIMs, all connected to the same account08:24
RST38hkwtm: The SIMs will have separate phone numbers, but I hope it is ok08:24
Macersaying terrorists are plotting a hostile action through the use of cloned sims to hide their whereabouts08:24
Macerkwtm: there's always skype to maintain the same number08:25
kwtmRST38h: Very interesting suggestion.  Out of curiosity, are you using Tmobile USA?  (Are you in the USA?  That should have been my first question, sorry, so two questions for you.)08:25
TiagoTiagoterrorists are textign each other with their blackberries, didn't you hear?08:25
DocScrutinizerMacer: RST38h: cloning sims with clonekit works with oooold cards only for all I know08:25
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RST38hkwtm: I am not in the USA right now, but I go there often enough08:25
Macer" none have been encountered before."08:26
MacerTSA guards are horrible08:26
RST38hMacer: [spoiler: anal probes at the end]08:26
Maceri think it is simply terrorist ignorance that prevents new attacks08:26
Macerbecause terrorsts believe the disgusting fat sloth of a tsa unarmed security guard counts as actual security08:26
TiagoTiagoblackberries are a threat to national security08:26
kwtmRST38h: I ask because I have a family plan, exactly as you suggest.  Were you able to get a family plan from Tmobile USA, or do you just use Tmobile USA for roaming and use whatever plan it is in your home country?08:27
Macerwhen it's really just some overweight person who had a friend that got them a job from being a midnight security guard at a strip mall in the ghetto08:27
Macersooner or later there's going to be some sick that busts out an n900 and starts shooting people with the death ray and the tsa guys are going to be the first to go with their iron on badges simply because they look like they hold a position of authority08:28
RST38hkwtm: Using a tmobile account when in the US08:28
TiagoTiagoboost the fmtx power and fry everyone's nuts08:28
RST38hMacer: But only after Nokia enabled the deathray with PR1.308:28
Macerwell with the advent of meego.....?08:28
Macerlooks like no death ray for me :(08:29
DocScrutinizerbtw, FWIW multisim works by individual SIM cards with their own unique IMSI, and it's just the "DNS" in carrier's network that routes same number to all three08:29
* RST38h doubts IMSI can be overwritten at all: that would be a security nightmare08:29
DocScrutinizerif you use SIM with same IMSI then always the one that registered last is used, the others are 'disconnected'08:29
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spinningcompassI'm looking for someone who has successfully compiled PyPy w/ Maemo "Diablo".08:30
MacerDocScrutinizer: then phones need to be made with external sim ports ;)08:30
RST38hok, time to go.08:30
kwtmRST38h: Okay.  I will ask Tmobile whether I can have two SIM cards with the same number, and say that someone else was able to do it.  Maybe that will enable me to do it. I do have two SIMs from Tmobile that had the same number at different times, but the old one was deactivated.08:30
Macerkwtm: i hated taking my sim out too08:30
Maceri wish i could have avoided it. it became too much of a hassle and i just use the n900 now and sold the g108:31
Stskeepsspinningcompass: funny fact, i actually did manage that like 2-3 years ago08:31
Stskeepsspinningcompass: when i started playing with n800 initially08:31
spinningcompassStskeeps: Please tell me you kept a copy. (prays) :)08:31
TiagoTiagomy mobile operator didn't fall for the "gimme cheap stuff or i'll go to the competitor" trick :(08:31
kwtmMacer: Funny you say that about external ports.  With my Treo650 I was able to take out the SIM any time, but with the N900 I need to take out the battery first and then reboot.08:31
Stskeepsspinningcompass: no, i left that job :P08:31
Macerkwtm: that's most phones08:31
Maceri suppose because phone manufactureres don't want people just ripping out sims and losing them08:32
Maceri'm sure the majority of people don't even know what the sim is ;)08:32
kwtmMacer: Really?  I guess Palm did have something going for it.  But it's as if the software division of Palm said, "Hey, Palm hardware is pretty good.  Let's compensate by making sucky software."08:32
Macerthey have webos nowadays don't they? :)08:33
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Maceri've never tried it but i heard it's not too bad.. .but trying to name a new os after a 1990s trend... :)08:33
kwtmMacer: Yeah, I decided not even to go there.  It's like, finally, Palm 3.5 has a community large enough for critical mass, and then they said, "Let's make a new Palm OS 5 that is not compatible with anything, and then force the community to run Palm 3.5 programs through an emulator!  I mean, what could go wrong?  It's not like we have competition or anything!"08:34
luke-jrT-Mobile US only has PAYG data plans for their Hiptop devices, which basically requires spoofing IMSI or whatever08:34
Stskeepsspinningcompass: can i ask what exactly you need it for?08:34
Macerah well. time to get some sleep. night.08:35
kwtmMacer: And then, later, "Uhh, customers, can you come back, please?  We'll even make a Linux based OS!  Although we'll tie it to a phone provider that doesn't even use SIM cards so you can't use your Palm Pre's overseas, but other than that it's a very good system that we're going to make Real Soon Now!"08:35
spinningcompassStskeeps: I've written a program to run on Windows, Mac, Linux, and the Nokia N810 (which also runs Linux, after a fashion). I'm looking to speed up the program on the Nokia.08:35
kwtmDuhh... the reason I keep coming back to the N900 is because it runs Linux, so long after it becomes obsolete it's still useful to me.  Hah!08:35
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kwtmThat's why I still love my Sharp Zaurus 5600. :)08:36
kwtmAnyway, I'm going to go reflash my N900 for the nth time.  I think I've finally figured out the problem with my infinite boot.08:37
Stskeepsspinningcompass: i still maintain you should look into building it on for example meego netbook and then it'd be portable to other handset instances..08:38
luke-jrkwtm: I think you're dreaming08:38
spinningcompassStskeeps: That's an interesting idea.08:39
wazdoooh, they've actually did it at alst :)
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Stskeepsspinningcompass: cos the toolchain in diablo is just way too bad for pypy08:42
spinningcompassStskeeps: "Way too bad" --- meaning defective or excessively groovy?08:42
Stskeepsspinningcompass: defective in terms of building anything modern08:42
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spinningcompassThe fact that there's a "howto" on that describes the step-by-step process of building PyPy for Maemo, tells me that PyPy *can* be built on Maemo. It doesn't mean it can be built on the Diablo edition, which might (by now) be too outdated to cope with PyPy (or anything else non-trivial).08:45
Stskeepsspinningcompass: or used to be able to, or n900 ..08:46
TiagoTiagois the a a "panic button" i can click to shut down all network activity instantly,so  ican test some stuff with mobile internet and if i notice?08:46
spinningcompassstskeeps: Indeed. Perhaps I should buy an N900, use Fremantle (which *can* build PyPy --- I tried, even though I don't have a PDA to run it on) and be happy :)08:46
TiagoTiagoah, nvm, offline mode :)08:46
TiagoTiagoduh! :P08:46
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TiagoTiagohave you ever heard of a trick to get free internet where you use the MMS conection instead of the regular one?08:53
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TiagoTiagoit can't be this simple09:16
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TiagoTiagotrying somthing i read on the internet that suposedly woudl gimme free internet09:18
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TiagoTiagoi'mn confused now09:18
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TiagoTiagoi tried pinging google and it worked, now it isn't working09:18
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meceTiagoTiago, I guess the MMS connection has a data cap, would be logical, since the mms' are limited size.09:20
TiagoTiagono, it's dead, not connecting anymore, not sure exactly what happened09:20
meceTiagoTiago, heh09:20
TiagoTiagoI wonder if it matters that the signal went from 3G to 2.509:22
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TiagoTiagoyep, now 3G is back it conected09:23
TiagoTiagoso far no charge, but they somtimes take a few minutes to charge09:24
TiagoTiagocrap, there goes my money09:24
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TiagoTiago lost a couple of dollars just for loading Google's homepage09:25
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TiagoTiagolol, i'm even getting 3.5 signal Xp09:25
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TiagoTiagolets see if i can setup DNS tunneling and if they will charge for it09:27
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TiagoTiagoI wasn't aware we had 3.5g network over here09:31
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spinningcompassTiagoTiago: It's halfway between the Verizon store and the Spring store. :)09:36
spinningcompasser, Sprint. Never mind. I'll stop trying to be funny; brb09:36
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jophishlcuk, I wasn't hallucinating about the keys powering off the phone09:46
jophishIf I press the g and h keys at the same time, the phone powers off09:47
jophishif I press any key and then the e key shortly after that, it powers off09:47
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jophishIf I open and close the keyboard 2 times, it shuts down09:47
jophishIt isn't a clean shutdown though. It's as if the power has just been cut. The screen goes out line by line, the same as powering off an old game boy09:48
jophishThis happened a few weeks ago with another n90009:49
jophishThe usb port fell out of that one, and I was charging the battery using a regular lipo charger09:49
SpeedEvilSome people the n900 simply seems to hate.09:50
jophishThat phone was replaced with this one, the only thing that is the same is the battery and sim card09:50
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jophishneedless to say, this makes the phone very hard to use09:51
jophishSpeedEvil, no kidding09:51
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jophishI have reflashed the phone already, although I don't believe that this is software related, as I can power it off the very moment it boots09:52
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jophishin fact09:53
jophishWith the G-H kill combination depressed, I can't even power it on at all09:53
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jophishI can't find anything remotely similar with google09:55
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SpeedEvilI would have guessed at water damage from the symptoms09:58
jophishExactly what I thought with the first one09:58
jophishbut I figured that if I was replacing it from the faulty usb port, the problem would be solved09:58
Tiagotiagodo you know of a tuotiral to set up a Windows machine as the target for DNS tunneling ?09:58
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