IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2010-08-09

mc_teo`	can someone explain what happens when the battery dies	00:01
SpeedEvil	mc_teo`: It goes blibly-boop.	00:01
lcuk	git goes to heaven	00:01
lcuk	-g damn	00:01
SpeedEvil	mc_teo`: DSME tells BME to shutdown. It pops up the banner 'recharge battery' then shuts down.	00:02
lcuk	it moans a few times beforehand	00:02
lcuk	then has a final wail	00:02
mc_teo`	does it not like save a state when battey is like 1% and then load this state on boot?	00:03
mc_teo`	it should	00:03
mc_teo`	imho	00:03
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MohammadAG	mc_teo`, install a framebuffer kernel	00:03
MohammadAG	you'll see it does	00:04
MohammadAG	DSME shuts down the device at bootup	00:04
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mc_teo`	?	00:05
mc_teo`	why would i want the device to shutdown at bootup	00:05
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MohammadAG	cause the batt's empty?	00:05
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achipa	~seen Jaffa	00:06
infobot	jaffa is currently on #maemo #meego. Has said a total of 75 messages. Is idling for 2h 36m 8s, last said: '~flashing'.	00:06
Aranel	[NITdroid question] I cannot get bootloader to work correctly. It only shows an empty entry (which defaults to Maemo it seems) , how I'm going to boot NITdroid with it?	00:07
MohammadAG	Aranel, #nitdroid	00:08
MohammadAG	actually	00:08
MohammadAG	Aranel, #nitdroid-help	00:08
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lcuk	achipa, according to that, jaffa has been flashing for hte last 2 hours	00:09
Aranel	thanks but It seems they're asleep =)	00:09
lcuk	it is entirely feasible he has been arrested	00:09
achipa	lcuk: doesn't sound good, eh ? :)	00:09
lcuk	heh not really	00:10
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trem	nite all, sweet dreams	00:20
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nicholas-x	Flashing cmt-mcusw... Sending request 0x50 failed!	00:26
nicholas-x	Bootloader error log follows:	00:26
nicholas-x	ERROR: Invalid argument for 'cmt'	00:26
nicholas-x	ERROR: Error processing request, stalling	00:26
nicholas-x	ERROR: EP0 STALL sent	00:26
nicholas-x	ERROR: Algo didn't wake up	00:26
nicholas-x	ERROR: Error processing request, stalling	00:26
nicholas-x	ERROR: EP0 STALL sent	00:26
nicholas-x	ERROR: Premature end of control transfer	00:26
nicholas-x	please i need help	00:26
nicholas-x	what have i done wrong?	00:26
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Jaffa	achipa: pong	00:31
Jaffa	lcuk: Was just watching Sherlock	00:31
achipa	Jaffa: I hope reflashing did not take Sherlockian (is that a word?) methods	00:31
nicholas-x	people! please help!	00:32
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achipa	Jaffa: anyway, I think I got kisstester where I wanted to regarding base look/function	00:32
Jaffa	achipa: Once I eliminated the impossible, whatever remained - no matter how unlikely - must be true	00:32
achipa	Jaffa: or, in plain English, "I take patches" is now officially in effect	00:32
Jaffa	achipa: Cool. See my earlier stuff about "Recently installed" (or whatever it's called now) not working for me?	00:32
achipa	did you check the very latest (as in 30 min ago ?)	00:33
Jaffa	achipa: No	00:33
* Jaffa does so		00:33
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Jaffa	achipa: "Already installed" is including some packages, such as Scout, 9x9-sudoku, Blue Sky Theme, Neon Theme that I don't have installed	00:37
achipa	Jaffa: or you THINK you don't have them installed (twilight zone theme playing in background)	00:37
achipa	but granted, you might have stumbled upon a bug on how I parse dpkg output	00:39
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Jaffa	achipa: achipa Don't have them installed: http://pastebin.com/ZrefcJ1n	00:39
achipa	(not sure if that is the right way to go about finding installed packages anyway)	00:39
Jaffa	achipa: The bug wasn't there earlier	00:39
Jaffa	achipa: Simplest way: ls /var/lib/dpkg/*.list	00:40
achipa	Jaffa: that does not include versions	00:40
Jaffa	achipa: Ah, true.	00:40
Jaffa	achipa: Just doing dpkg -l and then manually parsing/grepping /var/lib/apt/lists/*_Packages?	00:41
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Jaffa	achipa: Although dpkg -l truncates, I'm sure there's a way of getting it better	00:41
achipa	jaffa prolly via some dpkg-query stuff	00:42
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* DocScrutinizer51 wonders what happened to nicholas-x		00:42
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Jaffa	achipa: dpkg -l just reads /var/lib/dpkg/status. That looks quickest	00:43
DocScrutinizer51	also what happened to his modem	00:43
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SpeedEvil	It detonated, He hasn't been back.	00:45
achipa	Jaffa: hah, I think I got it, dpkg-query -W	00:45
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Jaffa	achipa: Perfect	00:45
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achipa	Jaffa: any other observations ?	00:46
lbt	hey Jaffa	00:46
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Jaffa	achipa: Does it indicate with green if something's promotable or only red/green depending on your vote?	00:47
Jaffa	lbt: hey!	00:47
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DocScrutinizer51	anyway seems dead (the modem)	00:48
achipa	Jaffa: border color indicates your vote, text color indicates unlock status	00:48
Jaffa	achipa: Ah, cool. Taking into account timescales as well as votes? (And super-testers?) Presumably you go off status in maemo.org/packages?	00:49
lbt	Jaffa: did you get my note earlier.... just wanted to give you an update for mwn	00:49
DocScrutinizer51	anyway seems dead (the modem)	00:49
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lbt	hmm... my desktop must have gone down...	00:50
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Jaffa	lbt: No, I didn't	00:50
lbt	and back :)	00:50
obcecado	hi channel	00:50
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achipa	Jaffa: timescales ? I just scrape, don't try to think too much, kiss principle and all :)	00:50
lbt	we have installed OBS on the OSU boxes	00:50
Jaffa	achipa: i.e. 10 days quarantine	00:50
lbt	tons of disk and fair amount of CPU	00:50
obcecado	after updating kernel-power, my n900 has a reboot cycle (it does not pass nokia screen)	00:50
Jaffa	lbt: oh yeah, cool	00:51
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obcecado	is there any way to fix it ? i tried reflashing following the wiki article, but no luck	00:51
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lbt	I thikn X-Fade and I are waiting for an audit and we need to see what sSO is available	00:51
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lbt	you saw the small rucus that that bug raised?	00:51
Jaffa	Yup	00:51
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lbt	worth mentioning I think	00:51
Jaffa	Wondering if to link to that with a "bah, humbug"	00:52
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achipa	Jaffa: umm... no ? not sure what/why would I include that ?	00:52
lbt	although I think the result will be favourable	00:52
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lbt	I'd like that nailed by the community people ASAP	00:52
achipa	obcecado: what exactly does no luck mean ? reflash went through but still reboots or could not reflash ?	00:52
lbt	it didn't get the attention last time around...	00:52
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obcecado	it does not flash	00:52
Jaffa	achipa: "Unlock status" - if I wanted to use the colour to know whether or not to further test, I would prioritise things which hadn't already been unlocked (or were going to be)	00:52
obcecado	the flasher keeps waiting for device	00:53
lbt	but I think the +ve thing is that we're really making steps on the OBS/autobuilder for fremantle/meego and, one expects, harmattan	00:53
achipa	Jaffa: err... that's the green text color	00:53
lbt	OK .. bed now... up in 6.5 hrs	00:53
lbt	night all	00:53
achipa	Jaffa: (after X-Fade's style of writing karma with green for unlocked packages)	00:53
obcecado	night	00:53
achipa	night	00:53
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obcecado	so, no ideas on what else i could do ?	00:54
Jaffa	achipa: OK, to be sure: what do you mean by "unlocked", promotable by the maintainer OR will be promotable by the maintainer once the quarantine expires?	00:54
obcecado	besides taking the device to a nokia support centre	00:54
achipa	Jaffa: the former	00:54
Jaffa	achipa: OK, and my point - partially - is that perhaps some indication for the latter (apart from reading the number) could be useful	00:55
Jaffa	achipa: But mostly I just wanted to understand without reading the code	00:55
achipa	obcecado: make sure you turned it off	00:56
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achipa	obcecado: and then started the flasher, so it waits for you to turn on the device	00:56
achipa	Jaffa: aha, well, did not want to include too much logic that is not ever certain to have been implemented by niels the same way :)	00:57
DrGrov	Good evening	00:57
achipa	obcecado: pull battery if you can't stop it looping/turning on	00:58
obcecado	should i expect some output when it starts flashing ?	01:00
achipa	obcecado: the flasher should say it's flashing	01:00
achipa	obcecado: though it's fairly quick	01:00
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astruasdh	sometimes my n900 shows no signal, but when I shutdown and power on again, the signal appears. is there any way so solve this or it is a problem in my mobile company?	01:04
Jaffa	achipa: True	01:05
SpeedEvil	same problem astruasdh	01:05
SpeedEvil	I suspect dirty SIM contacts	01:05
obcecado	no good achipa	01:05
obcecado	it does not start flashing	01:05
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astruasdh	SpeedEvil, I had "no sim card" symbol, but I solves it putting a piece of paper netween sim card holder and the battery	01:06
achipa	obcecado: does it say any error or ? make sure you're root	01:06
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obcecado	im running it from windows 64bit (using the boot method to use non signed drivers)	01:07
obcecado	as it refuses to run on my fedora	01:08
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achipa	obcecado: umm... not sure about windows...	01:08
obcecado	well, time to build a liveusb with persistent mode to run that flasher from debian...	01:09
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DocScrutinizer	astruasdh: make sure you properly lock the simcard holder	01:10
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astruasdh	hmmm ok, I'll do that, but I think it is ok	01:12
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DocScrutinizer	obcecado: exactly	01:14
DocScrutinizer	obcecado: then connect cable to PC, remove battery from N900, start flasher, connect cable to N900, insert battery to n900 while holding U key	01:15
DocScrutinizer	though, tbh, I don't see why holding 'u' could ever be flawed by borked kernel or rootfs, as this detection is done by NOLO bootloader, so holding down 'u' prior to powering up should do the trick each day. But there's one gotcha and that's discharged battery. Device doesn't charge when bootlooping, and flashing on flat battery is known to fail	01:19
achipa	Jaffa: hm.... what if you HAD that version installed but have uninstalled it in the meantime ? I'm inclined to show that, too...	01:20
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Cazzzzzzzzzzzo21	NEW MAMEO FUTURE RELATED: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBB8zTdY4NU	01:21
Cazzzzzzzzzzzo21	;)	01:21
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obcecado	DocScrutinizer: i also tried that	01:22
achipa	Jaffa: btw fix for your phantom packages pushed	01:23
DocScrutinizer	obcecado: yeah, but under windoze aiui	01:24
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DocScrutinizer	~seen Cazzzzzzzzzzzo21	01:26
infobot	cazzzzzzzzzzzo21 <~USCHostin@bas3-toronto01-1177778342.dsl.bell.ca> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 4m 56s ago, saying: ';)'.	01:26
DocScrutinizer	id... :-/	01:27
kerio	haha wtf	01:27
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DocScrutinizer	sometimes I wish I was a freenode admin	01:29
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DocScrutinizer	most of the time I'm happy I'm not	01:29
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DocScrutinizer	anyway "there's no way to delay / that trouble coming every day" :-)	01:32
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MohammadAG	<DocScrutinizer> though, tbh, I don't see why holding 'u' could ever be flawed by borked kernel or rootfs, as this detection is done by NOLO bootloader, so holding down 'u' prior to powering up should do the trick each day. But there's one gotcha and that's discharged battery. Device doesn't charge when bootlooping, and flashing on flat battery is known to fail	01:34
MohammadAG	pressing u just forces the device to go into flashing mode, it doesn't need to be done	01:34
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: I know what I've posted	01:35
MohammadAG	just execute + connect N900	01:35
* ieatlint holds u		01:35
kerio	MohammadAG: huh? really?	01:35
kerio	:o	01:35
kerio	ieatlint: uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu	01:35
MohammadAG	NO U	01:35
MohammadAG	anyways	01:35
vldcnst	deja vu about this flashing while battery dead	01:35
vldcnst	:o	01:35
ieatlint	me...	01:35
MohammadAG	2nd, I flashed with the solid yellow light on today, and it was a success	01:35
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: I can do that! just stop bme :-P	01:36
kerio	we need a "c" for charge	01:36
DocScrutinizer	honestly, NOLO should probably always reset solid yellow	01:36
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DocScrutinizer	so if you managed to get NOLO on screen while still yellow solid, there's really something weird going on	01:37
DocScrutinizer	and if you managed to flash without NOLO on screen, then even more	01:38
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DocScrutinizer	solid yellow doesn't mean battery is particularly low, it just means no working system has managed yet to reset the bq24150	01:39
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DocScrutinizer	brother, I got weird ideas...	01:42
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DocScrutinizer	system can be bootloadered (i.e. real boot meaning NOLO is starting) by 3 means: powerbutton, RTC alarm, and VBUS 5V detection. I'm wondering what's going to happen when you power down the system while bq24150 still in boost mode, so the device itself will supply the VBUS 5V	01:44
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG: (pressing 'u') of course pressing/holding 'u' isn't exactly mandatory, but it's a nice help to stop system from running into bootloop, esp when you got problems with connectivity to flashing PC	01:50
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DocScrutinizer	kerio: try it, maybe NOLO has such function since 770	01:51
MohammadAG	<DocScrutinizer> honestly, NOLO should probably always reset solid yellow	01:51
MohammadAG	it didn't	01:51
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DocScrutinizer	weird	01:52
* timeless doesn't remember the 770 having a keyboard :)		01:52
DocScrutinizer	lol	01:52
DocScrutinizer	good point	01:52
MohammadAG	DocScrutinizer, you could try it out for yourself	01:52
MohammadAG	but it involves dd'ing /dev/mtd5	01:52
timeless	where's the fun in that?	01:53
timeless	it sounds like risk+pain	01:53
MohammadAG	kernel panics -> nothing to reset chip	01:53
DocScrutinizer	anyway see http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Subsystems#Keyboard	01:53
DocScrutinizer	2: U has its own row	01:53
MohammadAG	timeless, risk+pain=fun	01:53
MohammadAG	k, maybe not	01:53
timeless	masochist	01:53
DocScrutinizer	~stab MohammadAG	01:54
* infobot runs at MohammadAG with an origami Swiss Army knife, and inflicts a nasty paper cut.		01:54
_trine	risk+pain=disaster	01:54
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_trine	risk+nopain=fun	01:55
timeless	sw ep6 :)	01:56
* timeless seems to recall seeing ep5 this morning		01:56
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* DocScrutinizer pokes jacekowski about other special keys tested in NOLO		01:58
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* MohammadAG51 stabs it again, just to be sure		02:19
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Macer	well. fmms seems to get the job done as far as pics go	04:17
Macer	people still sell n810s for $250?	04:19
Macer	wow	04:19
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DocScrutinizer51	heh, I paid 240EUR	04:40
DocScrutinizer51	for the spare	04:40
Ken-Young	Does anyone (here) know if the N900 is still being manufactured?	04:43
SpeedEvil	Ken-Young: well - it's still being sold.	04:44
SpeedEvil	Ken-Young: It's moderately unlikely they'd have huge stocks.	04:44
Ken-Young	SpeedEvil, yeah, I want to buy one more before stocks dwindle, but I don't know if I should be in a hurry yet.	04:44
SpeedEvil	I really doubt it.	04:45
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Ken-Young	SpeedEvil, You doubt they're still being manufactured?	04:45
Ken-Young	Oh, sorry - I misunderstood.	04:47
zeltak	hya guys..i searched alot but just cant find the info..where do i need to put my aliases? .profile dosent seem to work	04:49
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Ken-Young	zeltak, .profile works for me.	04:50
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Ken-Young	zeltak, Are you using xterm?	04:51
zeltak	Ken-Young: yeah..the default terminal that came with maemo	04:51
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Ken-Young	zeltak, Which directory did you put .profile in?	04:52
zeltak	Ken-Young: home/user/.profile	04:52
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Ken-Young	zeltak, home/user/.profile or /home/user/.profile ?	04:53
zeltak	/home/user/profile	04:53
zeltak	sorry about the mistype :)	04:53
zeltak	here is the current file : http://paste.xinu.at/e1S/	04:53
Ken-Young	zeltak, Who's the owner, and what are the file permissions on .profile ?	04:54
pronto	me	04:54
zeltak	ahh i see the owner is root	04:55
zeltak	wierd it dosent work also in ssh (when i log in as root)	04:55
Ken-Young	zeltak, Try making it user.	04:55
zeltak	k trying it now Ken-Young	04:55
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zeltak	yup workon the n900..wonder why it dosent work with ssh when i log as root..i have alos the same file in /root/.profile	04:58
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Macer	hm	05:03
Macer	application manager seems screwed	05:03
Macer	trying to install nitdroid	05:03
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zeltak	say anyone else having problems with usb connection under linux (where it takes a few tries to get it working in usb mass storage mode)?	05:09
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tank-man	zeltak, i've always used sd card or wifi	05:40
Macer	blah	05:42
default_	zel: sorry.. I don't use it often (about 2 times a month) .. but have not had that problem as of earlier today	05:42
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zeltak	thx default_	06:01
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default_	could be a bad connection	06:05
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Macer	wow	06:41
Macer	nitdroid is awesome	06:42
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Ken-Young	Macer, I'm not familiar with nitdroid, what does it let you do?	07:00
Cabletwitch	Yarp.	07:00
luke-jr	Ken-Young: NITdroid is an Android port to NITs	07:01
Ken-Young	luke-jr, Can you run Android apps with it?	07:02
luke-jr	presumably	07:02
luke-jr	it's Android	07:02
luke-jr	perfect for idiots like Macer who just want a lame phone	07:03
luke-jr	:P	07:03
Ken-Young	Does it run as a Maemo app, or do you have to boot a full Android?	07:03
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Macer	luke-jr: hahahaha	07:17
Macer	yeah. everybody knows only the best and brightest use gentoo on their phones :)	07:17
Macer	i'm booting it back into deadmo5 now :)	07:18
Macer	luke-jr: honest go god. i would care less about maemo dying off if they at least added a portrait mode to the "desktop"	07:19
Macer	and actual built in hid support for bt keyboards like maemo4 had	07:20
luke-jr	Macer: portrait mode is easy	07:21
Macer	a functional portrait mode :-P	07:22
Macer	not that disgusting non-usable hackery that just rotates a non-resizing screen around	07:22
Macer	android handles it nicely	07:22
Macer	as does any other OS than maemo :)	07:22
luke-jr	hmm I see what you mean	07:22
luke-jr	the desktop doesn't really rotate	07:23
Macer	well.. it does "rotate"	07:23
Macer	but you can tell it isn't meant to do that	07:23
luke-jr	but not resize	07:23
Macer	or reposition	07:23
Macer	i just hope that nitdroid figures out a few things. the gsm, gps, and cam is all that is left	07:23
Macer	but i am sure nokia will do whatever it can to prevent it from working in android	07:24
luke-jr	GPS is pretty much a given	07:24
Macer	as they are unwilling to admit their OSes are failures :)	07:24
luke-jr	have someone from NITdroid contact me ;)	07:24
Macer	just go to #nitdroid	07:24
luke-jr	I'm there	07:24
Macer	i'm sure someone there will help you heh	07:24
luke-jr	I don't need help.	07:25
Macer	but the cams and the gps and modem are the last 3 things	07:25
luke-jr	they do.	07:25
luke-jr	I have GPS working on Gentoo 10)%	07:25
luke-jr	100%	07:25
lpotter	quite sure symbian is still the most used/selling phone os	07:25
lpotter	not sure if that means its a failure or not	07:25
Macer	lpotter: yeah i suppose if you include crap phones too ;)	07:25
Macer	people who have their drug dealing burn phones don't care what os it runs	07:25
lpotter	you mean s30 and s40	07:26
Macer	heh. well i am betting that statistic will close up soon enough	07:27
lpotter	then wtf are you doing here? being a troll?	07:27
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Macer	no. i don't care about symbian. maemo is still good. it will just go stale soon enough.	07:28
Macer	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Mobile_devices	07:28
Macer	wow.. 10% for android... why is that statistic so off on the symbian wikipedia entry..maybe it's outdated	07:29
lpotter	says 2010 Q1,. thats fairly outdated	07:30
lpotter	youve been listening to US tech media too much	07:31
Macer	yeah but the symbian entry has q1 of 2010 at 4.7%	07:31
Macer	for android	07:31
lpotter	the graphic says 44%	07:31
Macer	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbian_OS	07:32
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Macer	i was looking at the competition section	07:32
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Macer	Although the share of the global smartphone market dropped from 52.4% in 2008 to 47.2% in 2009	07:33
Macer	wow that is a huge drop in market share	07:33
lpotter	5%?	07:34
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Macer	yes. 5% of a market share is a huge drop	07:35
DocScrutinizer51	Macer: please stop trolling	07:36
lpotter	in that case, apple is hugely more poplular than android	07:36
Macer	well. i'm not but ok. onthe brighter side... the front cam works great in maemo	07:37
lpotter	and synbian is insainly more popular than all	07:37
Macer	i was surprised how well it video chatted :)	07:37
DocScrutinizer51	Macer: please stop trolling	07:38
Macer	er. i wasn't. i was talking about using my n900 front cam for video chatting over skype and gtalk that worked well	07:38
Macer	nokia holds 75% of the chinese market share. wow. doesn't show which operating systems tho.	07:42
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Scifi	Hi, Is autobuilder still down?	08:08
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Jaffa	achipa: Cool, thanks	08:33
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phish3	hey guys, i'm looking to develop an event based application.. I've done my share of android deving and find it does things poorly here - you basically must poll here	08:53
phish3	but I'm wondering how maemo does with sockets being left open over time	08:53
phish3	do they become stale as a result of power saving or anything?	08:53
luke-jr	they might get reset if the network connection changes	08:53
phish3	but so lets say things are pretty stable, when the phone isn't doing anything for a moment or lets say the screen turns off, the sockets are still good?	08:54
phish3	oh and is my application told when the sockets are ... killed?	08:55
phish3	android... they just are stale, you have no way of telling unless you watch for timeouts	08:55
luke-jr	should work just like any other Linux system	08:56
phish3	completely new to maemo so I'm just seeing if it can help for these parts	08:56
luke-jr	ordinary BSD sockets	08:56
phish3	well I get that that's the api	08:56
luke-jr	Maemo doesn't have any custom API nonsense (at least not for sockets)	08:57
luke-jr	it's exactly the same code that would be running on your desktop system	08:57
phish3	hmm, like I said, I get that and that's good	08:57
phish3	I'm just wondering if lets say cell tower changes will propigate up teh stack "like it should"	08:58
luke-jr	or shouldn't.	08:58
phish3	yea	08:58
luke-jr	if I lose cell signal, I don't want my connections reset.	08:58
phish3	yes, good catch	08:58
luke-jr	I want them to try to stick around in case I go back	08:58
luke-jr	when/if it does timeout, I think you'd get an EOF on the socket	08:59
phish3	yes, that's the kind of thing I thought on android	08:59
phish3	instead they hung around :forever:	08:59
luke-jr	well Android isn't Linux	08:59
luke-jr	it's quite a different beast	08:59
phish3	well, it is and isn't :P	08:59
luke-jr	kernel fork aside, Android apps have numeroous layers of abstraction in between	09:00
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luke-jr	it could be running on HURD and nobody would notice	09:00
phish3	rofl	09:00
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phish3	tbh the linuxness of maemo is a great selling point for the people I'm discussing this app with	09:01
phish3	specially wanting to leverage qt app on the desktop being reused on the mobile app	09:01
phish3	just had to make sure the socket stuff would work better	09:01
phish3	*than on android, which it seems it does	09:02
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phish3	btw any updates on n900 successor?	09:03
ieatlint	qt compatibility between a desktop linux system and maemo should be good	09:03
ieatlint	http://doc.qt.nokia.com/qt-maemo-4.6/platform-notes-maemo5.html details the differences	09:03
phish3	that thing is taking its time coming out and its lack of some power disqualifies it from some :ahem: military applications	09:03
ieatlint	worth reading, as there are changes to qt itself beyond the addition of the QMaemo5* classes	09:04
Jucato	ieatlint: +1. I just have one issue: a phonon bug which makes Qt apps not respect the system volume :(	09:04
phish3	oh, interesting	09:04
phish3	hnn, luckily I'm not looking to use sound just yet	09:05
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ieatlint	qsound may not work, but the qaudio* classes do	09:05
phish3	out of context that's pretty odd	09:05
ieatlint	i'd agree :P	09:06
ieatlint	maemo wants you to use gstreamer to play media...	09:06
Jucato	directly in Qt apps using the gstreamer API?	09:07
phish3	directly huh	09:07
Jucato	heh same question :)	09:07
ieatlint	i didn't say that :P	09:07
ieatlint	as to how you accomplish it...	09:07
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ieatlint	also worth noting that if you stick to qt, an app can be written to work on a desktop, in maemo, in meego and in symbian	09:09
ieatlint	not sure i'm the biggest fan of qt or c++ in general, but that is nice	09:09
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Jucato	anyway, the bug was reported and confirmed by other people (but officially still tagged as unconfirmed). sound works anyway. it just doesn't respect system volume (if you set system volume to low, the Qt app will still play full blast)	09:09
Jucato	ieatlint: well, that's the theory :)	09:10
ieatlint	yeah, a theory that so far has proven only about 90% true	09:10
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Jucato	you'd still have to be mindful of the UI of course (form factor and such)	09:11
phish3	even so having c++ and alot of the qt util classes to use is great	09:11
phish3	try reimplementing all your c++ in java for android :/	09:11
* Jucato nods		09:12
ieatlint	i've happily avoided java thus far...	09:12
* Jucato too ... sometimes just because I'm afraid I might like it :D		09:13
phish3	so yea though, has there been any news in the last 3 months for n900 successor?	09:13
Stskeeps	phish3: talk.maemo.org is probably better to search	09:13
* phish3 checks it out		09:13
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Jucato	how about any definitive news on what Maemo 6 will really be? I've been out of the loop for a while so the last thing I heard was that it would be a something ("product"?) of MeeGo.	09:14
phish3	oh yea so if I just bought a n900.. er should I just buy a normal model for development right?	09:15
Jucato	(ironically, again I am getting a Nokia device after it has been "deprecated" ... just like my N810 :)	09:15
ieatlint	Jucato: there is no maemo 6, it will be meego	09:15
phish3	and will it come out of the box with maemo 5 and qt libs are available for that without much mucking around, right?	09:15
Jucato	phish3: I don't think there are any abnormal models :)	09:15
ieatlint	phish3: there is no dev model per se	09:15
phish3	apt-get away or so?	09:16
Jucato	phish3: Qt will be installed by default when you upgrade the firmware to PR 1.2 (latest update)	09:16
ieatlint	an n900 running the current firmware has the qt 4.6.2 libs	09:16
phish3	upgrades automatic or do I have to download stuff to flash and run a special bootloader or something?	09:16
Jucato	I believe it's automatic OTA	09:17
phish3	no root-preventing fiacos?	09:17
ieatlint	not sure about OTA... i used the nokia software update utility, which was just a windows app that is designed for idiots to run	09:17
phish3	that's good, I wasn't looking to foruming around for a day like I often do for android	09:18
ieatlint	getting root on the device doesn't require a hack	09:18
ieatlint	(which is also something to note security-wise)	09:18
phish3	that's mostly good - I don't want the system fighting me if I have to do something more custom than normal	09:19
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frals	software updates are OTA but can be flashed as well if that floats your boat ;)	09:22
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MiXu-	Is there some way to bypass apt-get over https certificate errors?	09:36
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kke	The following NEW packages will be installed:	10:08
kke	libsdl-ttf2.0 libsdl-ttf2.0-0	10:08
kke	trying to overwrite `/usr/lib/libSDL_ttf-2.0.so.0.6.3', which is also in package libsdl-ttf2.0-0	10:08
kke	hmph	10:08
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kke	btw how do i know which PR i have?	10:09
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mece	kke, menu -> settings -> about product	10:10
mece	Version: 10.2010.19-something is pr1.2	10:10
dr34m	anybody ever send a broken nokia back? was wondering about avg time it takes to get it back... waiting 3 weeks now	10:11
dr34m	n900 that is	10:12
kke	mece: ok cool so i got 1.2	10:12
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mece	dr34m, I got mine back in 3 hours. I didn't sen it though. Took it directly to the service people.	10:12
hatake_kakashi	dr34m, not I but have they given you any form of contact?	10:12
kke	dr34m: my e71 was in for over two months and didn't work even then.. (battery still goes out in about 10 minutes)	10:13
dr34m	brrr i brought it back where i bought it and they send to nokia .nl	10:13
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dr34m	kke over 2 months :s	10:14
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mece	~seen qole	10:42
infobot	qole <~qole@Maemo/community/council/qole> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 151d 15h 5m 47s ago, saying: 'Stskeeps, oh that's some great news!'.	10:42
mece	151 days... I guess he'll be back any day now..	10:42
pronto	o=	10:43
mece	:)	10:44
MohammadAG51	~seen Jebba	10:44
infobot	jebba <~jebba@8.20.201.9> was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 28d 6h 21m 32s ago, saying: 'Well, you better wear a helmet around here....'.	10:44
mece	MohammadAG51, I hope qole gets the meego chroot working. Would be nice to fiddle with it a little without having to reboot or anything.. :)	10:44
Stskeeps	we already have a meego chroot though	10:45
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mece	Stskeeps: we do?	10:45
mece	Stskeeps: I haven't been paying attention	10:45
Stskeeps	sec	10:45
* mece waits		10:45
Stskeeps	http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900/Install/chroot	10:45
MohammadAG51	swap images and boot that thing	10:45
MiXu-	dr34m: It's summer so the queues are quite long.	10:46
MiXu-	My gf took her phone to service and was told to expect it back in about a month	10:46
mece	MohammadAG51, well that's what I didn't want to do.	10:46
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mece	I don't feel up to the task of actually installing that chroot. I'll wait for something easy. I think qole is doing just that.	10:48
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frals	:D	11:36
jophish	I might be hallucinating though	11:36
jophish	Just got in from a flight from NJ to the UK	11:36
TermanaN900	he did the mash, he did the n900 buuuton mash	11:36
mece	jophish, well I can't imagine why you would want to mash the keys, but it still shouldn't reboot from that..	11:37
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* MohammadAG51 mashes keys		11:41
* crashanddie mashes MohammadAG51		11:42
MohammadAG51	crashanddie, gtfo	11:42
crashanddie	:(	11:42
MohammadAG51	:p	11:42
crashanddie	But I'm at work, I can't go out	11:42
* DuckBoot makes mashed potatoes		11:42
MohammadAG51	work != IRC	11:42
TermanaN900	when he says mash, does he mean with his fingers or with his mouth?	11:42
crashanddie	TermanaN900: with a spork?	11:42
lcuk	or with a potato masher	11:42
lcuk	Foon	11:43
TermanaN900	if hes mashing it with his mouth, that would make it reboot	11:43
* MohammadAG51 chroots into TermanaN900 and executes rm -rf /* then reboots		11:43
TermanaN900	water damage	11:43
* frals trouts MohammadAG51, irc == work		11:43
Knirch	agreed, irc == work	11:44
MohammadAG51	~frals	11:44
infobot	[frals] a large smelly trout, or the developer of fMMS	11:44
mece	hehehe	11:44
TermanaN900	MohammadAG51, so frals hit you with himself?	11:44
mece	have you guys noticed that the N900 has an incredible microphone?	11:44
MohammadAG51	yes	11:44
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marmoute	and pitiful speaker	11:44
kerio	microphone?	11:45
mece	The best I've ever seen on a phone.	11:45
kerio	:o	11:45
mece	yep	11:45
MohammadAG51	kerio, that hole on the bottom of the device	11:45
TermanaN900	kerio didnt even know it had one	11:45
kerio	ooh, yeah, that phone thingy	11:45
lcuk	yes mece, marmoute no	11:45
MohammadAG51	you know, the one you use to talk on calls	11:45
kerio	never used it	11:45
crashanddie	mece: well, I've heard the quality of the microphone more than I've seen it	11:45
mece	crashanddie, teehee	11:45
TermanaN900	:P	11:45
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mece	kerio, LOL	11:45
mece	The funny thing is that it's much better than my ears when sound is loud.	11:46
TermanaN900	mece, i would assume sound quality of the speaker is limited to what your ear sound quality was	11:47
* MohammadAG51 cloaks frals w/ Maemo/community/trouter/frals		11:47
TermanaN900	but obviously your listening to it another way than your ears to get better quality	11:47
TermanaN900	buttplugs?	11:47
TermanaN900	:P	11:47
mece	TermanaN900, well I meant that if the sound is so loud that my ears can't hear it properly, ie it cracks, the N900 can still record it perfectly clear.	11:47
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BCMM	does the n900 screen tend to scratch in normal use?	11:49
mece	BCMM, it does in my normal use.	11:50
lcuk	BCMM, not really, but its a bit troublesome with my diamond tipped stylus I agree	11:50
mece	BCMM: I've got small kids, so I get dirt everywhere.	11:50
koala_man	mine hasn't scratched yet	11:50
lcuk	tracy keeps her N900 in her handbag and the kids play with it	11:50
BCMM	i've used a screen protector so far, whish is now extensively scratched by the stylus, and i'm wondering whether to replace it	11:50
lcuk	it does have some minor scratches, but nothing like the monster on my n810	11:51
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crashanddie	lcuk: the kids are in her handbag too>	11:51
crashanddie	?	11:51
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frals	crashanddie: where else would you put them when you go out?	11:51
mece	I have one proper scratch and a ton of superficial ones that don't really matter.	11:51
lcuk	no, but explaining keeping something in a hangbag with all assortment of things is not normally the most healthy of places	11:51
BCMM	anyone know of an n900 case that it can be charged in?	11:51
BCMM	the biggest risk is probably when it's kicking around my desk, plugged into the pc	11:52
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BCMM	the rest of the time it can be in the case or alone in a pocket	11:52
lcuk	BCMM, tracy has tried 2 covers for hers	11:53
lcuk	both allowed charging	11:53
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lcuk	she is geting one of those pretty covered cases soon (stick on plastic) so getting best of both	11:53
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mece	BCMM: there's a pretty trick leather case fron nokia that looks cool but is slightly bulky. My boss has that one on his.	11:54
BCMM	i could get a "sock", actually	11:55
BCMM	mece: i have a leather case from nokia, came free	11:55
BCMM	covers the ports	11:55
X-Fade	I use the 770 pouch thingie :)	11:55
BCMM	i kinda want that, but with charging...	11:55
lcuk	heh X-Fade i have a bigger Nokia baggie	11:55
lcuk	with drawstrings too!	11:56
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mece	BCMM: this one I meant: http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/accessories/all-accessories/carrying-and-styling/carrying-cases/nokia-carrying-case-cp-408	11:56
X-Fade	~seen javispedro	11:57
BCMM	also, i'm veggie and kinda don't wanna acquire leather things on purpose	11:57
infobot	javispedro <~javier@Maemo/community/council/javispedro> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 74d 7h 58m 32s ago, saying: 'oh.. aisleriot solitaire with clutter/3D vista-like animations! port port port !'.	11:57
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mece	I got a screenprotector after I started noticing scratches, so I don't have to be so careful, and that's enough for me. The phone is very sturdy as long as you have the screen towards yourself when in a pocket.	11:58
X-Fade	Hmmm I wonder where he went.	11:58
lcuk	X-Fade, gsoc meego	11:58
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crashanddie	DocScrutinizer51: did you get my email from yesterday?	11:58
BCMM	i thought i had minor scratches, but i can't find them now	11:58
mece	BCMM: Dunno if it's real leather.	11:58
Stskeeps	X-Fade: doing some really cool stuff with meegotouch virtual keyboard and gtk	11:59
TermanaN900	I put a screen protector on my n900 after what happened with my n810	11:59
mece	BCMM: you need sunshine to see them properly. The sun comes out and suddenly it's all scratched	11:59
frals	bah, anyone else having trouble getting to http://doc.trolltech.com ?	11:59
BCMM	sometimes the stylus will draw a line through the finger-grease that looks just like a scratch	11:59
mece	Stskeeps: so meego has full gtk?	11:59
Stskeeps	mece: i'd say 'real gtk'	11:59
mece	frals, took about .1 of a second to load that page, so no.	11:59
TermanaN900	the stylus has scratched my n810 screen so badly that when trying to use the stylus on it, it makes a bad blackboard scratchy sound	11:59
mece	Stskeeps: as opposed to hildon?	12:00
Stskeeps	mece: bingo	12:00
Stskeeps	:P	12:00
frals	mece: cheers	12:00
Stskeeps	mece: i did a proof of concept libhildon for 'real gtk'	12:00
Stskeeps	noone has really followed up on it	12:00
mece	Stskeeps: well, the n900 can use real gtk can it not?	12:00
BCMM	mece: heh, i'm not one of the crazies who think fake leather just encourages real leather	12:00
X-Fade	Stskeeps: Yeah, saw that. I wonder why he isn't here though ;)	12:00
mece	BCMM: that's nice :)	12:00
BCMM	leather is a big selling point, so if it doesn't say so, it isn't	12:01
BCMM	mece: how does that thing work? plastic back clips on, whole for cam?	12:02
TermanaN900	i had a red plastic case for mine. took it off because it made the device feel unnatural	12:03
BCMM	yeah, i was mostly looking for the sort of small case that you take it right out of to use	12:03
BCMM	just to keep it safe when charging	12:04
mece	BCMM, ok. no that case has a hole for the camera and for every plug and whatnot. It's very good that way, but it's not something you take it out of easily.	12:04
mece	it has a smooth fabric on the inside of the "lid" very soft and nice.	12:05
lcuk	Stskeeps, links to the gtk experiment please	12:05
Stskeeps	lcuk: planet.maemo.org	12:07
Stskeeps	or which one?	12:07
lcuk	<Stskeeps> mece: i did a proof of concept libhildon for 'real gtk'	12:07
lcuk	<Stskeeps> noone has really followed up on it	12:07
Stskeeps	http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-June/003201.html	12:08
Stskeeps	as well as on gnome-mobile	12:08
lcuk	did you perhaps ping claudio about it after you did it?	12:09
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wazd	Stskeeps: o/	12:10
wazd	hello all :)	12:10
Stskeeps	lo wazd, how's tricks? suffocating?	12:10
wazd	Stskeeps: Well, if I'll open the window - I'll die, if I'll close the window - I'll die :D	12:11
wazd	Stskeeps: that's how Moscow looks now :)	12:11
X-Fade	wazd: Awesome footage though. Post apocalypse like ;)	12:13
wazd	X-Fade: thanks, that's around my countryhouse, not far from Moscow itself :)	12:14
X-Fade	But I can imagine it is not fun to be there right now.	12:14
wazd	X-Fade: looks like some giant zombie movie stage :D	12:14
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X-Fade	Hehe	12:15
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wazd	X-Fade: well, actually yes, I'm laughing more because I'm tired of all that stuff :)	12:15
wazd	X-Fade: Have to keep my windows shut - about 40 degrees in the room now :(	12:16
mece	wazd, where are the photos?	12:16
X-Fade	wazd: I can imagine that that is quite horrible yes.	12:16
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mece	wazd, nasty stuf :/	12:16
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wazd	mece: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=779527&postcount=538	12:17
Brik	28	12:17
achipa	X-Fade: hi there, is there any way I can get a simple way of acquiring the vote/comment URL for the interface ?	12:17
achipa	X-Fade: I would need it for KISStester, it's the only big thing missing...	12:18
lcuk	wazd, whats the smoke from?	12:18
X-Fade	achipa: the rest api?	12:18
achipa	X-Fade: so you CAN vote via rest ?	12:18
mece	hee, important research completed! http://www.cube20.org/	12:18
wazd	lcuk: burning forests around the country	12:18
lcuk	o_O :(	12:18
X-Fade	achipa: No, only comment itself.	12:18
Jucato	hi, is there a way to automatically update the applications menu when I install my (Qt) package? it's installed in /usr/share/icons/hicolor/<size>, but the icon only displays properly in the menu after a restart of the device (the XB-Maemo-Icon-26 part works perfectly though)	12:18
X-Fade	achipa: But for comment listing see: http://maemo.org/packages/api/v1/comments/data/1/450c69a4a68811de965317405429a5f7a5f7/	12:19
Jucato	or should the proper path be /usr/share/icons/hicolor/<size>/hildon/ ?	12:20
mece	hehe "Mordors black mist has also reached Helsinki, thanks."	12:20
wazd	this is even more sad photo - http://s48.radikal.ru/i121/1008/87/89244880cb3c.jpg	12:20
achipa	and how do I get the "450c69a4a68811de965317405429a5f7a5f7" part from the package name ?	12:20
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achipa	X-Fade: ^^	12:20
X-Fade	achipa: That is the guid listed in the package info in the rest api.	12:21
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wazd	and this is moscow right now http://i070.radikal.ru/1008/dd/ef2cfb5cd10c.jpg	12:24
achipa	X-Fade: I'm still bonked in the head, do you have like... docs for that api ? I know just the call for search and now the comments	12:24
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X-Fade	achipa: the search gives you <id>	12:25
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MohammadAG51	Shapeshifter, why didn't you ask X-Fade to take down maemoreactor?	12:26
crashanddie	X-Fade: d'you get my email?	12:26
X-Fade	achipa: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/open-collaboration-services <- OCS api	12:26
X-Fade	crashanddie: Yes, but haven't gotten to it yet.	12:26
achipa	X-Fade: is going through search foolproof wrt to different versions in the repo ?	12:26
crashanddie	X-Fade: yeah take your time, I'd like to get your thoughts and GAN900's before doing anything	12:27
X-Fade	achipa: It should only list most recent versions. If not ping me ;)	12:27
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achipa	X-Fade: sooo... can you tell me what I'm doing wrong: http://maemo.org/packages/api/v1/content/data/?parent=fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel&search=fheroes2	12:34
achipa	and I get the fheroes2-demodata package (even though there is one actually named fheroes2)	12:35
X-Fade	achipa: Hmmm I do see it here: http://maemo.org/packages/api/v1/content/data/?parent=fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel&search=heroes	12:36
X-Fade	achipa: Let me look at the code.	12:36
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X-Fade	achipa: Hmm it searches in title, instead of name ;)	12:38
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achipa	X-Fade: heh, no wonder the results looked kooky	12:38
X-Fade	achipa: Let me fix that now.	12:38
achipa	X-Fade: (Y)	12:39
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X-Fade	achipa: Try now.	12:39
achipa	The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading.	12:40
achipa	errhm	12:40
X-Fade	achipa: flushing cache ;)	12:40
achipa	okay now...	12:40
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X-Fade	achipa: I think I can get a thumbs api implemented today problably.	12:47
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achipa	X-Fade: that would be cool	12:49
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achipa	X-Fade: (as basically that is now only missing piece in KISStester)	12:50
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X-Fade	achipa: I'll probably use this api: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/open-collaboration-services#vote	12:52
Jaffa	achipa: I'm thinking of looking at doing some automated analysis on the checkbox screen, e.g. check /var/lib/dpkg/info/$PACKAGE.list for any /opt entries (or paths handled by python-optify) and showing the bug tracker URL.	12:52
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achipa	Jaffa: excellent - though note that optify is tricky business - it really should be done on the server	12:53
achipa	Jaffa: as it's not really an optification bug if someone messed with one's own paths	12:53
Jaffa	achipa: Perhaps; I don't think KISStester should do any auto-checking, but it can at least do the same heuristic check	12:54
Jaffa	achipa: ...that I'd do when testing a package.	12:54
Jaffa	achipa: i.e. it puts some stuff in /opt, or it's contained within the bind-mounted Python dirs.	12:54
achipa	Jaffa: yeah	12:55
achipa	Jaffa: though I'd probably suggest using something like os.path.realpath to work around symlinks	12:55
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Jaffa	achipa: I'll have a look tonight	12:56
achipa	Jaffa: licensing is a tough thing to check, tho, as appmanager has no concept of it, and docpurge happily kills anything the maintainer might have put in	12:57
achipa	in any case, all help welcome	12:58
achipa	I'll make it packageable/buildable tonight, so as soon as we have the REST stuff in, ship it !	12:58
achipa	Jaffa, X-Fade: just wondering, should maybe the first versions have some sort of safety switch ? so that people unfamiliar with what this is about don't get trigger happy while we're only testing it ?	13:00
achipa	(I already added an are you sure for the thumb to avoid oops-es, but was thinking about something more proactive...)	13:00
X-Fade	achipa: Add a confirm dialog?	13:01
X-Fade	achipa: Or something like that?	13:01
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achipa	X-Fade: yes, you have an areyousure on thumbing, but saying if maybe there should be something else to enable write access (talking about the testing phase - it would not be needed once it's stable enough to go to testing and extras)	13:03
achipa	like 'create a file named rwtesting in MyDocs' or whatever	13:04
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X-Fade	achipa: Maybe don't enable direct voting right away?	13:04
achipa	X-Fade: well we DO need to put it out to people to be able to test if it works :)	13:05
X-Fade	achipa: Sure, but maybe not while testing the tester ;)	13:05
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* MohammadAG wonders why the N900 accepts a BT connection before it asks where to save the file		14:10
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xkr47-DI	hi	14:19
xkr47-DI	I'm trying to sync the calendar with exchange using the built-in exchange sync	14:20
xkr47-DI	after a bunch of minutes of "first time sync" it fails and says there was an error communicating	14:21
xkr47-DI	based on tcp dumps I can see that the phone spontaneously closes the connection 30 seconds after last network activity	14:21
xkr47-DI	so I'm guessing there's a timeout that causes it to fail	14:21
xkr47-DI	I guess our exchange server may just be really slow (it's located in another office overseas)	14:22
frals	there is a thread on talk.maemo.org and a wiki page on maemo.org which have instructions on how to get log files from activesync, might be a starting point :)	14:22
xkr47-DI	yeah I saw, I was just thinking if you know a setting for such a timeout	14:22
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xkr47-DI	a bunch of events flow through and the progress bar progresses about 40%	14:23
xkr47-DI	but then it always disconnects after 30 seconds of "nothing"	14:23
xkr47-DI	but alright, I'll try the syslog	14:23
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nas_	xkr47-DI you do that over WIFI ?	14:35
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Jaffa	achipa: Drop the confirm dialogue and make it go off /home/user/.kisstester-rw file existing	14:45
frals	xkr47-DI: if you have that autodisconnect app it might be interfering if the connection goes down completetly after exactly 30sec	14:49
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achipa	Jaffa: ook	14:50
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xkr47-DI	nas_, usb networking	15:00
xkr47-DI	frals, no autodisconnect on usb	15:00
nas_	ckk	15:01
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kerio	hey, new mobile maps version	15:07
kerio	does someone use it? is it good enough as a satnav?	15:07
DuckBoot	kerio: Ovi Maps?	15:07
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kerio	no, the Sygic one	15:08
DuckBoot	Aaah	15:08
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rmrfchik	hmm, mBarCode don't read datamatrix. Only QR	15:12
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ZogG_N900	hey	15:32
ZogG_N900	sup?	15:32
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kerio	ZogG_N900: depends on your orientation	15:32
ZogG_N900	straight )	15:32
kerio	then... the sky	15:32
kerio	or the roof	15:32
ZogG_N900	is on fire	15:32
kerio	we don't need no water let the motherfucker burn	15:33
ZogG_N900	damn hot here	15:33
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* mece just got a pair of koss PortaPro's for his N900. yay!		15:33
ZogG_N900	koss portawut?	15:33
ZogG_N900	headphones?	15:33
SpeedEvil	I got a Kosh case for my n900. You can't even tell it's a phone now.	15:34
ZogG_N900	meh. n900 is too big anyways on it's own. don't need case	15:34
mece	ZogG_N900: yes.	15:35
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ZogG_N900	mece, control buttons/mic or just headphones?	15:35
ZogG_N900	sorry, on phone, can't google it (	15:35
mece	ZogG_N900: just headphones. Old school, and very good imo.	15:36
ZogG_N900	but is n900 quality is that good, i mean audiocard	15:37
ZogG_N900	or chip	15:37
ZogG_N900	i like to listen to music on it	15:37
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ZogG_N900	but thinking of cowon d2+	15:37
Shapeshifter	MohammadAG51: because there's a new package called "reaction face-off". The maemoreactor package is obsolete. (name change because of the trademark issue)	15:38
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MohammadAG51	Shapeshifter, I asked why you didn't ask him to take it down	15:38
pupnik	http://zx81.zx81.free.fr/serendipity/index.php?/archives/444-Pandora-FishFillets-Fish-Fillets-Next-Generation-for-pandora.html Looks like an improved fish fillets - game port candidate for maemo / n900	15:38
MohammadAG51	i know that you changed names	15:38
Shapeshifter	MohammadAG51: Oh, I DID ;)	15:38
Shapeshifter	I wrote him in here and I wrote him an email	15:38
Shapeshifter	no reaction	15:38
MohammadAG51	hmm	15:38
MohammadAG51	Shapeshifter, btw, prime numbers are incorrect, or i'm a retard	15:39
mece	pupnik: how did you're lady like the weather yesterday?	15:39
Shapeshifter	MohammadAG51: yes they are.	15:39
Shapeshifter	MohammadAG51: I fixed it but I need to update the package	15:39
pupnik	mece: said it was amazing!	15:39
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MohammadAG51	damn you Shapeshifter, you made me lose a game	15:39
Shapeshifter	D	15:40
mece	pupnik, no tent landed on her then?	15:40
Shapeshifter	D:	15:40
ZogG_N900	lol	15:40
ZogG_N900	MohammadAG51, did u get ur bluetooth headphones ?	15:40
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pupnik	no injuries thankfully. she said people had to squat down to prevent being blown-over from the storm gusts	15:40
mece	pupnik, insane...	15:40
MohammadAG51	ZogG_N900, nope	15:40
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ZogG_N900	MohammadAG51, mwahahahah	15:41
DuckBoot	Bluetooth Audio on the N900 is at best choppy. atleast when you're streaming music over wifi.	15:41
ieatlint	weather? what's that?	15:41
mece	pupnik, we had thunderstorms on saturday in stockholm too, but it rained the whole day instead :/ Stuff didn't break though.	15:41
ZogG_N900	ieatlint, it's when it is really f* hot	15:41
Jucato	Weather: that thing people use to make up excuses for delaying or cancelling schedules	15:42
ieatlint	it's been 11-15c here since winter	15:42
ieatlint	when it occasionally dropped as low as maybe 5c... on rare occasion, that is	15:42
ZogG_N900	like u	15:42
SpeedEvil	I was blown out of my shoes by a storm once.	15:43
DuckBoot	Weather: That thing that makes women more attractive, due to less fabric covering vital parts.	15:43
SpeedEvil	I never expected that when I went to see Gladiators being filmed.	15:43
ieatlint	we have fog though, i haven't seen the sun in maybe a week	15:43
ZogG_N900	if u think it isn't enuf use farenhgeit	15:43
MohammadAG51	heh, it's 38C here	15:44
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MohammadAG51	lol DuckBoot	15:46
ieatlint	i was in vegas last weekend actually, 32c low and 45c high	15:46
ieatlint	i have some sympathy... dry heat though	15:46
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SpeedEvil	I'm in Scotland. High of 16C, low of 9 today.	15:47
ieatlint	scotland sounds nice then :P	15:47
DuckBoot	Approx 23c in Oslo today	15:47
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* MohammadAG51 packs and moves to scotland		15:48
MohammadAG51	i miss bad weather	15:48
ieatlint	i don't think it's exceeded 15c here in san francisco for at least a month	15:49
* crashanddie throws a bucket of water on MohammadAG51		15:49
crashanddie	there's your bad weather	15:49
ieatlint	that is, on the western side of sf anyway	15:49
crashanddie	ieatlint: serious? Such bad weather?	15:49
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ieatlint	crashanddie: we don't have weather here	15:49
crashanddie	you just have fog?	15:49
DuckBoot	MohammadAG51: I was in the very northernmost part of Norway earlier this summer - ~24 m/s wind, 3c and rain - Is that bad enough for you?	15:50
ieatlint	exactly	15:50
ieatlint	just fog	15:50
crashanddie	I'm in southern france, high of 38	15:50
ieatlint	summertime means 18c highs, wintertime means 15c highs .. it's a cold summer	15:50
ieatlint	coldest in 40 years	15:50
MohammadAG51	DuckBoot, no	15:50
DuckBoot	;-P	15:50
MohammadAG51	i haven't seen any snow for about 3-4 years	15:51
ieatlint	the only way we know between summer and winter is rain.. it never rains in the summer	15:51
MohammadAG51	well, since CoD4 came out	15:51
DuckBoot	MohammadAG51: I promise you shitloads of snow in the wintertime, and absolutely _no_ sun there for atleast a couple of months.	15:51
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: is that because you never left the house ever since CoD4 came out?	15:51
ieatlint	MohammadAG51: where are you?	15:51
crashanddie	ieatlint: IRL	15:52
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MohammadAG51	crashanddie, LOL no	15:52
ieatlint	haha, yeah, i was about to ask wtf	15:53
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ieatlint	how is it 38c in ireland and 16c in scotland	15:53
MohammadAG51	ieatlint, ireland moves closer to africa	15:53
MohammadAG51	moved*	15:53
ieatlint	i'm going to guess morocco then	15:54
crashanddie	what is the shorthand for your bloody country then?	15:54
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: go outside and chant the hatikvah	15:54
SpeedEvil	38C in ireland sounds unlikely.	15:55
crashanddie	then move to Haifa and get a job you bum	15:55
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crashanddie	ah, IL	15:56
crashanddie	ieatlint: he lives in IL	15:56
MohammadAG51	not in IL atm though	15:56
ieatlint	ah	15:56
crashanddie	you fled?	15:56
MohammadAG51	no, tactics, planning a war	15:56
Stskeeps	going to bomb apple?	15:57
SpeedEvil	IL is not ireland. The religious differences are slightly larger.	15:57
Stskeeps	:P	15:57
ieatlint	i can bomb apple much more easily	15:57
MohammadAG51	Stskeeps, you could say that :p	15:57
crashanddie	ok, so the military excuse for fleeing: you executed a tactical withdrawal?	15:57
MohammadAG51	kind of, we're targetting france atm	15:58
ieatlint	yeah, take care of france for us.. the rest of the western world will thank you	15:58
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: can you wait 3 months?	15:59
MohammadAG51	hmm	15:59
MohammadAG51	maybe, if you give us 10k frogs legs	15:59
MohammadAG51	they make better warheads	15:59
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: after 3 months the probation period is over and I'm entitled to jobloss benefits in case of a war	16:00
MohammadAG51	LOL	16:00
crashanddie	also, anyone who currently resides in a country where the education system isn't better than france's is not allowed to joke about invading it	16:00
MohammadAG51	in that case, no	16:00
ieatlint	bah, france would probably just surrender anyway :P	16:00
crashanddie	err	16:00
crashanddie	healthcare instead of education	16:00
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MohammadAG51	healthcare in IL is almost on par with western countries crashanddie	16:01
crashanddie	for starters, to anyone who lives in the UK and US, France has a healthcare system, and it works :) So there :P	16:01
ieatlint	san francisco has a healthcare system, and it kinda works	16:01
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Stskeeps	and it's not just a guillotine(sp) for every sick person?	16:01
ieatlint	better than the rest of the country, anyway	16:02
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: then again, most western countries aren't on par with France's healthcare ;), so your point is mooot	16:02
MohammadAG51	crashanddie, can't see hoe france's healthcare's better	16:02
MohammadAG51	how*	16:02
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DuckBoot	Norway has a pretty good healthcare.	16:02
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E0x	hello	16:04
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: that's like saying that your car goes as fast as most WWI-era trains.	16:04
crashanddie	ieatlint: also, for the record, the Dutch surrendered before the French did.	16:04
crashanddie	read history books, don't watch TV.	16:04
ieatlint	yeah, well, they didn't have the maginot line to defend them	16:04
ieatlint	:P	16:04
pablo2	In scratchbox , where I find libpthread.so.0?? Packages name !?	16:04
ieatlint	i'm still bitter about vietnam	16:05
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ieatlint	i mostly kid, my bias against france is based on personal experiences	16:05
MohammadAG51	crashanddie, you're not french, why do you like france so much	16:06
ieatlint	people in paris are dicks, and i was stopped by customs while driving into france near lille	16:06
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ieatlint	and well, it resulted in the guy sticking his hands in my pants without warning	16:06
MohammadAG51	wtf	16:06
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: I love the country, I just hate the French	16:06
ieatlint	yeah, i heard good things about the south, especially provence	16:07
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E0x	sorry for the offtopic , but i take some code from the sleeper.py app , exactly the part that do the draw but when i run my program i get some error : http://pastebin.com/wLZjD8ur , this is the code is not finish and is very very dirty and don't do anything yet, just want try the draw first : http://pastebin.com/Xm7Ft8gW	16:10
alterego	Heh, you hate a whole nationality ...	16:10
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: A few quotes from De Gaulle (a general who fled to Britain and then led France through the rebellion against the Nazis, ended up being the first president of the 5th Republic): "How can anyone govern a nation that has two hundred and forty-six different kinds of cheese?" "I have tried to lift France out of the mud. But she will return to her errors and vomitings. I cannot prevent the French from being French." and	16:10
alterego	E0x: None with a capital N not none.	16:11
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E0x	hmm alterego what i dump ass i am	16:13
alterego	dumb with a b not a p :P	16:14
alterego	:D	16:14
E0x	hehe	16:14
E0x	thx	16:14
alterego	bbiab	16:16
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ieatlint	france... a country that strikes so often, it does it at the world cup	16:18
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ieatlint	still, a country known for being arrogant dicks might be better than a country known for being ignorant bigots	16:18
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MohammadAG51	since we're already off topic	16:19
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MohammadAG51	new topic: politics	16:19
* MohammadAG51 runs		16:19
ieatlint	so, nationalism socialism...	16:19
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pupnik	pablo2: should be provided by libc	16:20
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* RST38h moos at wazd evilly		16:23
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wazd	RST38h: hello :) Are you in Mordor or gone to the US? :)	16:23
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RST38h	wazd: Still here, working	16:24
RST38h	wazd: Family left for .BY yesterday	16:24
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wazd	RST38h: good :)	16:24
RST38h	wazd: obligatory pic: http://pit.dirty.ru/lepro/2/2010/08/04/32845-075656-f1fdab3dc282c86c4fbef1f141aacb65.jpg	16:24
wazd	RST38h: yeah-yeah :)	16:25
wazd	RST38h: in fact at my countryhouse it was even worse	16:25
wazd	RST38h: now it's much clearer brw :)	16:26
RST38h	wazd: Just wait until the evening...	16:26
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wazd	RST38h: well, I'm trying to get as much quasi-fresh air into my room as possible right now :)	16:27
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RST38h	wazd: airplane O2 generator is the only answer...	16:28
wazd	RST38h: http://s09.radikal.ru/i182/1008/cc/3965820eabb0.jpg	16:28
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RST38h	wazd: The Mist.	16:29
lcuk	RST38h, one of those thunderstorms near HEL should clear the air somewhat	16:30
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RST38h	lcuk: had thunderstorms here for a month	16:30
RST38h	lcuk: they do nothing	16:30
lcuk	epe	16:31
lcuk	eep	16:31
RST38h	(which actually looks weird, as one would expect things to at least get more wet)	16:31
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DocScrutinizer	for all the "maemo is dead" trolls: >> This has been fixed in package kernel 2.6.28-20103003+0m5 which is part of the internal build version 2010.31-2<< From bug 10808	16:44
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10808 kernel oops on activating heartbeat trigger	16:44
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alterego	DocScrutinizer: yeah, I think the "maemo is dead" clan aren't really interested.	16:51
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DocScrutinizer	yeah, giraffe stage 2	16:52
DocScrutinizer	to 3	16:52
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E0x	nice! my fisrt widget get draw !	16:53
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E0x	now let make it do something	16:53
E0x	:D	16:53
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DocScrutinizer	I should make subtitles (translate to maemo trollish) for the giraffe video	16:53
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GAN900	DocScrutinizer, who cares if it's fixed internally.	16:54
GAN900	If you'll recall there were at least two rounds of Diablo updates that never made it out of the pipeline.	16:55
DocScrutinizer	actually nobody. But quite evidently the assumption maemo development is abandoned is quite wrong	16:55
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lcuk	100% totally wrong	16:58
GAN900	Hehe	16:59
GAN900	Well, we'll see	16:59
GAN900	I've been bitten by optimism too many times before.	16:59
Termana	So now you refrain from any at all	16:59
Termana	Just saying	16:59
Termana	:P	17:00
lcuk	jees GAN900 did anything break?	17:00
lcuk	DocScrutinizer, have you seen how the live background support is coming on?	17:00
lcuk	vlad has managed to create the whole new control panel as well as a core set of cool new live items	17:01
lcuk	even a video one :D	17:01
DocScrutinizer	eeew, please don't	17:01
lcuk	tis uber cool	17:01
GAN900	Termana, yep.	17:01
lcuk	:p	17:01
luke-jr	[08:55:11] <GAN900> If you'll recall there were at least two rounds of Diablo updates that never made it out of the pipeline.	17:01
luke-jr	GAN900: as in, stuff we still don't have?	17:01
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: bat killer	17:02
GAN900	Termana, call it burnout. Or perhaps burnout prevention.	17:02
lcuk	sure DocScrutinizer	17:02
GAN900	luke-jr, yep	17:02
luke-jr	-.-	17:02
lcuk	but theres many people who leave devices on desks during daytime etc	17:02
lcuk	whilst hacking on main computer with device sat charging	17:02
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Dassu	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=47371 can somebody explain me the benifits of this? :\|	17:02
Dassu	Geez	17:02
GAN900	luke-jr, the community SSU project is working on releasing at least some of them.	17:03
Dassu	"I'm using over 9000 apps so I need to have all shortcuts on my dekstopzzsa"	17:03
lcuk	Dassu, sure, some people are unhappy with only 4	17:03
luke-jr	I think 5 would be nice	17:03
Dassu	I was unhappy with 4 but because it was way too may	17:03
Dassu	2 is eough	17:03
lcuk	and its entirely feasible to have whole homescreen for contacts and another for shortcuts and another for xyz etc	17:03
luke-jr	I have 20 on my desktop	17:03
Dassu	I have like 5	17:03
lcuk	"2 is enough...FOR YOU"	17:03
Termana	I just use 1	17:04
Dassu	"FOR ME"	17:04
Dassu	Well, it is for everyone	17:04
Termana	and it has 2 rows of 4 icons	17:04
Dassu	people just fill their screes with shortcuts they dont eve use	17:04
Termana	and a bookmark on each side	17:04
lcuk	Dassu, and?	17:04
GAN900	Sadly it's about two years too late for most people to care.	17:04
lcuk	they might have a use for them	17:04
lcuk	you dont - deal	17:04
Dassu	...	17:05
Dassu	it is faster to search it from the menu then	17:05
Dassu	2 clicks	17:05
lcuk	for you	17:05
Dassu	dsadsa	17:05
luke-jr	Dassu: desktop isn't for shortcuts, n00b	17:05
DocScrutinizer	never restrict users by introducing random arbitrary limits! If anybody wants 100, give her 100	17:05
GAN900	TEHO	17:05
Dassu	"Her"	17:05
Dassu	Oh it is women now	17:05
Dassu	NOw I c	17:05
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Dassu	NO help then	17:05
DocScrutinizer	~attack Dassu	17:06
* infobot grabs a pen, screams like she's possessed, and begins chasing Dassu		17:06
GAN900	DocScrutinizer, don't use PC pronouns.	17:06
GAN900	DocScrutinizer, or we'll have to ban you.	17:07
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DocScrutinizer	GAN900: I will stop that, just for they are NOT PC, at least the notion I use them :-)	17:07
DocScrutinizer	never restrict users by introducing random arbitrary limits! If anybody wants 100, give them 100	17:07
luke-jr	'them' is plural	17:08
GAN900	luke-jr, STFU	17:08
GAN900	"they" and "them" are acceptable for singular gender-neutral pronouns.	17:08
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luke-jr	no	17:09
luke-jr	English has enough ambiguity without such abuse :P	17:10
luke-jr	'em' is a perfectly good singular gender-neutral pronoun here	17:10
GAN900	I think European speakers just like pissing off native speakers with PC pronouns.	17:10
DocScrutinizer	k, have fun. /me off for coffee (and popcorn?)	17:10
luke-jr	Europeans don't speak natively?	17:10
GAN900	luke-jr, so you prefer he or she?	17:10
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GAN900	luke-jr, not English.	17:10
Lynoure	GAN900: can I use "she" if I ever write something relevant? :)	17:11
luke-jr	GAN900: I prefer e	17:11
luke-jr	or he	17:11
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Lynoure	I prefer 'hän' but that's wrong language	17:11
GAN900	Lynoure, is the person the pronoun is refering to actually a person, and female? :P	17:12
Lynoure	GAN900: possibly. If 'them' is ruled out, I think defaulting for one's own gender is pretty sane.	17:12
luke-jr	women/she/her are a subset of men/he/him after all	17:12
luke-jr	but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun works if less ambiguous terms are required	17:13
DocScrutinizer	s/men/man(kind)/	17:13
GAN900	Lynoure, them is proper and acceptable	17:13
GAN900	Despite luke-jr's grammar natzism.	17:14
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GAN900	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun#Modern_English	17:14
DocScrutinizer	grammar tonalism?	17:14
Lynoure	I like how many RPG books use 'she' and 'he', one for the gamer, one for the gamemaster	17:14
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luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: Spivak has widespread use	17:15
Lynoure	That actually squeezes some usefulness out of there being two different words.	17:15
DocScrutinizer	sounds like a Czech Military	17:15
DocScrutinizer	or something I don't wanna eat	17:16
lcuk	did this whole brainfart occur because someone used "her" ? hwy the big hangups?	17:16
DocScrutinizer	lol	17:17
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lcuk	why ^	17:17
Lynoure	lcuk: you don't want my speculation on that =)	17:17
lcuk	not really, i think DocScrutinizer's original point was much more worthwhile rather than bikeshedding about it ;)	17:18
DocScrutinizer	well, I said 'give her 100' imagine what had happend, had I said "give her 50" :-D	17:18
Lynoure	DocScrutinizer: hee.	17:18
DocScrutinizer	~50$	17:18
DocScrutinizer	infobot: WAKE UP!	17:18
* infobot throws a barrel-full of ice water on UP! and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!"		17:18
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DocScrutinizer	:-/	17:19
luke-jr	lol	17:19
luke-jr	infobot: wake TiagoTiago	17:19
* infobot throws a barrel-full of ice water on TiagoTiago and shouts "GOOD MORNING!!!!"		17:19
TiagoTiago	hi	17:19
GAN900	DocScrutinizer, anyway, now you're more informed about a stupid issue than you were 5 minutes ago.	17:21
TiagoTiago	Can any of you help me with http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=60019 please?	17:22
DocScrutinizer	yeah, my morning was so funny, even with tmo, I had no time yet for my coffee :-P	17:22
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GAN900	Coffee is bad for you.	17:24
DocScrutinizer	nah, TiagoTiago is bad for me	17:24
TiagoTiago	lol	17:24
E0x	hmm	17:25
DocScrutinizer	commenting on threads without reading the original post	17:25
E0x	how i can change the current desktop	17:25
E0x	?	17:25
E0x	i try changing the gconf key	17:25
E0x	but not work , i mean it get change at gconf but not visual	17:25
TiagoTiago	click on the backgorund then on the gear that appear and then on the gear on the top left corner to see the menu	17:26
E0x	i am trying do a widget that jump to N desktop when you preset the number of it	17:26
TiagoTiago	oh	17:26
TiagoTiago	not what i thought you were talking about	17:26
E0x	like a pager	17:26
E0x	def set_view_key(self, view): client = gconf.client_get_default() client.set_int('/apps/osso/hildon-desktop/views/current', view)	17:27
E0x	set_view_key(number)	17:27
E0x	do the change it gconf	17:27
E0x	but not get apply	17:27
E0x	in the desktop	17:27
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DocScrutinizer	GAN900: though you're probably right, nevertheless I don't want to hear it. Your not my medical doctor :-) let's talk about OC instead :-P	17:29
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GAN900	DocScrutinizer, don't do that either!	17:30
DocScrutinizer	why? is adrenaline even worse than coffee?	17:30
* GAN900 wonders if last-gen Mac Pros will be cheap.		17:31
GAN900	With longterm abuse, yes. :P	17:31
DocScrutinizer	heh, I'm not an adrenaline junky	17:31
TiagoTiago	Can any of you help me with http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=60019 please?	17:31
DocScrutinizer	sure	17:32
DocScrutinizer	~spell http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=60019	17:32
infobot	only one word of alphabetic characters supported	17:32
TiagoTiago	lol	17:33
korhojoa	~spell tornado	17:33
infobot	'tornado' may be spelled correctly	17:33
TiagoTiago	~read http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=60019	17:33
* DocScrutinizer just had a weird idea of povbot maybe could do tmo topic expansion the same way it does for tracker ticket numbers		17:33
TiagoTiago	balls	17:33
korhojoa	when people post thread urls, it replies with the thread title?	17:34
TiagoTiago	that would be usefull	17:34
korhojoa	does it post the title of websites otherwise?	17:34
korhojoa	because that's pretty darn handy	17:34
TiagoTiago	better if it also quoted the firsr post	17:34
DocScrutinizer	bug 10808	17:34
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10808 kernel oops on activating heartbeat trigger	17:34
korhojoa	i know a few irc channels that have bots that do that, it really makes it easier to know what you're clicking on	17:34
korhojoa	that is handy	17:35
TiagoTiago	~google http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=60019	17:35
TiagoTiago	balls	17:35
DocScrutinizer	TiagoTiago: sure not better, as bot will get banned for spamming then	17:36
TiagoTiago	the thread is about the issue i'm having with the browsr refreshing cdrtain pages over and over again	17:36
DocScrutinizer	TiagoTiago: you're googling for a URL... :-S What's the expected result of ~google? another URL?	17:37
TiagoTiago	hm, i didn't thought about that, yeah, many threads got lenghty first posts	17:37
TiagoTiago	perhaps it would show the title of the page and an excerpt?	17:38
TiagoTiago	i mean, Google	17:38
DocScrutinizer	everything >5 short lines is considered flooding here	17:39
TiagoTiago	for the first result given the search terms, be it an url or kregu.ar keywords	17:39
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TiagoTiago	regular*	17:40
DocScrutinizer	me browses to kregu.ar, and drops a greeting not to Werner Almesberger in BUE while doing so	17:40
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DocScrutinizer	note*	17:41
TiagoTiago	gah! lol i remembered thee naeme of the browser wrongg, completly wrong	17:41
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TiagoTiago	lool, itms hard to type fast on the N900 without silly typos xP	17:42
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* DocScrutinizer registers kregu.ar doman		17:42
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johnsq	Hi	17:42
johnsq	Hi	17:42
TiagoTiago	hihi	17:42
MohammadAG51	TiagoTiago, i get 59 WPM adjusted (w/o typos) on the N900	17:43
DocScrutinizer	hi hihi	17:43
MohammadAG51	w/ typos i get 68 or so	17:43
DocScrutinizer	djjk dakjdah dakjhd sdkjhda skjh sök skjhs skhsh dkiorqh sdjh	17:43
DocScrutinizer	156	17:43
MohammadAG51	sometimes, even ops spam and need a kick :p	17:43
*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer		17:44
TiagoTiago	hm, weird, i got the yellow notificarion but the msg is missing in the chat history :\	17:44
*** DocScrutinizer was kicked by DocScrutinizer (WTF?!)		17:44
MohammadAG51	ty	17:44
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MohammadAG51	wb	17:44
DocScrutinizer	:-D	17:44
TiagoTiago	ah, nvm, it was just colored differemtly	17:45
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DocScrutinizer	nah, now it gets silly on http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=60014&page=3	17:48
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DocScrutinizer	yellow notification??	17:49
DocScrutinizer	are you guys all using pre-summit devices? the ones with "red and blue led swapped" bug?	17:50
TiagoTiago	sent the URL via skype to my desktop, can't browse talk.maemo threads on the device ebcause of the issue i'm having	17:50
TiagoTiago	nomis, i mean the yellow card in the dashboard	17:51
kerio	if i don't have a receipt, do i get warranty right now?	17:51
kerio	from nokia	17:51
DocScrutinizer	depends on the shop, I guess	17:52
DocScrutinizer	basically, as the device is not possible to be older than 2 years...	17:52
kerio	oh, then ok	17:52
kerio	yeah, the law says i have 2 years	17:53
frals	atleast in .se i dont know any shop who would take your device and send it off unless you have a receipt showing you bought it there, but dunno how nokia care handles it	17:53
DocScrutinizer	but then you might have to prove you bought it in a country where 2 years warranty apply at all	17:53
kerio	i think nokia knows	17:54
DocScrutinizer	frals: nope, it's supposed to be irrelevant in which shop you bought the device. Every Nokia care center shall accept return for repair	17:55
kerio	and yeah, it's only nokia for me - i bought it used	17:55
X-Fade	Hmm is warranty transferable?	17:55
DocScrutinizer	usually yes	17:55
frals	DocScrutinizer: alright, never had to use warranty for any of my nokia devices so... :D	17:55
kerio	huh?	17:55
kerio	it's by-device	17:55
X-Fade	Warranty is a contract between buyer and seller iirc.	17:56
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kerio	will i get a substitution for the device?	17:56
frals	X-Fade: afaik in sweden it depends, some allow it to pass to second buyer or such, but ianal so	17:56
DocScrutinizer	X-Fade: though you're basically right, the contract is transferrable, and usually not even bound to name of original customer	17:56
TiagoTiago	perhaps if you talk directly witth Nokia and do not mention where you got it?	17:57
X-Fade	I'd say, don't mention the bought used part ;)	17:57
kerio	that's what i'll do :D	17:57
kerio	it should be a eu device anyway	17:57
DocScrutinizer	say it's been a gift	17:58
kerio	the limits on the fmtx ui are 107.9/88.1	17:58
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TiagoTiago	are there any variations in the hardware of the N900 across the world?	17:58
DocScrutinizer	nope	17:58
X-Fade	Yes	17:58
DocScrutinizer	??	17:58
X-Fade	Hw keyboard?	17:59
DocScrutinizer	arrrgh	17:59
frals	:D	17:59
kerio	oh yeah it's definetely an IT device	17:59
kerio	whew	17:59
TiagoTiago	oh, right, ok other than localized keys, any difference?	17:59
DocScrutinizer	nope	17:59
X-Fade	yes	17:59
kerio	lol	17:59
DocScrutinizer	charger that comes with it	17:59
DocScrutinizer	and sticker placed in battery bay	18:00
MohammadAG51	and fmtx state	18:00
DocScrutinizer	that's not hw	18:00
kerio	can't you override that by sw?	18:00
kerio	is 87.5/108 the hw limit?	18:00
X-Fade	Hardware tends to change also a bit over time.	18:00
MohammadAG51	hm, right	18:00
MohammadAG51	kerio, no, kernel module limit	18:00
kerio	what's the hw limit?	18:01
DocScrutinizer	over time yes, over localization no	18:01
kerio	and is the module opensourced?	18:01
MohammadAG51	all modules are	18:01
MohammadAG51	kerio, you can edit limits	18:01
DocScrutinizer	heard the new devices use glue to harden the micro USB	18:01
MohammadAG51	you'll have to use something other than the GUI	18:01
kerio	ooh i'm getting one of those	18:01
kerio	the wallcharger doesn't always work	18:02
TiagoTiago	if i installed the powerkernel would the fmtx limitations from what came with the device still be there or does it set it to a common value?	18:02
kerio	and the screen is scratched	18:02
kerio	TiagoTiago: it's mostly a ui problem	18:02
MohammadAG51	TiagoTiago, afaik fmtx state is in cal	18:02
kerio	with v4l-ctl you can go 87.5-108	18:02
romen	do you think it is possible to have the keyboard changed in a nokia center?	18:02
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG51: correct	18:02
kerio	romen: probably not	18:03
MohammadAG51	so the GUI will only show values for the region set in cal	18:03
kerio	but you can change your layout	18:03
MohammadAG51	fmtx-faker helps	18:03
TiagoTiago	It would be pretty awesome if Nokia had a warranty like NSD (makers of the Powerball) offers	18:03
DocScrutinizer	romen: most likely yes	18:03
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MohammadAG51	romen, changing the keymat is piss easy	18:03
DocScrutinizer	romen: I changed it myself though	18:03
DocScrutinizer	yep	18:03
MohammadAG51	two screws, then pry it	18:03
DocScrutinizer	yep	18:03
MohammadAG51	i did with the screen & device on	18:03
kerio	TiagoTiago: like?	18:03
romen	MohammadAG51, I'm quite scared of opening it xD	18:04
MohammadAG51	it's not opening the whole device :)	18:04
DocScrutinizer	romen: you're not exactly "opening" it	18:04
MohammadAG51	oh, for the record, i just turned 17, so i'm not an engineer or something	18:04
DocScrutinizer	it's the two torx screws under keyboard	18:04
kerio	MohammadAG51: does it replace the fmtxd?	18:05
kerio	because i have jacekowski's	18:05
MohammadAG51	kerio, no, it reports a different region	18:05
TiagoTiago	Worldwide, lifetime waranty, if you prove you got one made by them they will send you replacement parts no questions asked	18:05
MohammadAG51	instead of the one in cal	18:05
MohammadAG51	kerio, so you can use both	18:05
kerio	neat	18:05
GAN900	MohammadAG51, nor a grammarian, apparently. :P	18:06
romen	DocScrutinizer, the two on the bottom of the rear side (bottom left and bottom right corners)?	18:06
DocScrutinizer	yep	18:06
DocScrutinizer	the other 4 are Phillips	18:06
MohammadAG51	GAN900, err? :p	18:06
MohammadAG51	PH0 afaik	18:06
MohammadAG51	the torx screws are T6 i think	18:07
romen	DocScrutinizer, and where can I find spare parts?	18:07
DocScrutinizer	that's the hard part	18:07
TiagoTiago	as many times as you need	18:07
MohammadAG51	spare parts for what?	18:07
MohammadAG51	i used the same screws	18:07
MohammadAG51	disassembled it 4 times	18:07
DocScrutinizer	http://www.klc.fi/fin/tuotteet/Nokia-Varaosat-N900?page=1	18:07
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TiagoTiago	NSD rocks! :D	18:08
DocScrutinizer	http://www.saremi-mobilfunk.de/	18:08
romen	MohammadAG51, I have a N900 with finnish keyboard (as I'm living here and bought it here) but as I'm not a finnish/swedish speaker (even less a writer!!) the localized keyboard is quite uncomfortable	18:08
DocScrutinizer	romen: ^^^	18:09
MohammadAG51	esp the arrows,	18:09
DocScrutinizer	saremi is where I got my QWERTY	18:09
kerio	MohammadAG51: fmtx-faker did jack shit	18:10
kerio	._.	18:10
romen	MohammadAG51, right, especially the arrows xD	18:10
MohammadAG51	kerio, reboot	18:10
kerio	hmm... is there a way for nokia to check for past overclock?	18:10
kerio	MohammadAG51: i did	18:10
romen	DocScrutinizer, I'm checking thos 2, thanks!	18:10
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MohammadAG51	kerio, set region	18:11
kerio	romen: if you need help on keyboard remapping ask here	18:11
* GAN900 has dark spots on his screen. :(		18:11
TiagoTiago	:(	18:11
Stskeeps	GAN900: stop spilling coffee on it	18:12
DocScrutinizer	romen: inserting the new keymat is a bit tricky, as you need to do it both keymat and frame same time, but it definitely works	18:12
kerio	MohammadAG51: how do i do that?	18:12
MohammadAG51	fmtx-faker-tool --help	18:12
romen	kerio, the thing is that as also the US N900 keymap is not really "standard" (due to size) just changing the keymap wouldn't be enough for me, as I would get crazy in looking for blue keys and the rightmost part of the keyboard would be completely different	18:12
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TiagoTiago	did you use a magnifying glass to read tiny text in a sunny day?	18:13
DocScrutinizer	romen: so you're quite out of options then	18:13
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GAN900	Stskeeps, must be somebody else, I don't drin coffee.	18:14
Stskeeps	GAN900: it's the rot from talk.maemo.org seeping into your n900 then	18:14
MohammadAG51	replace keymat + layout and you're done	18:14
GAN900	Could be that	18:14
romen	MohammadAG51, how hard is that?	18:14
DocScrutinizer	GAN900: dark spots on LCD ts are a known problem	18:15
GAN900	Either way, it's going back to Nokia in a month.	18:15
frals	romen: the solution is obviously to learn swedish so you can use the keyboard properly... ;-)	18:15
DocScrutinizer	caused by too much force applied	18:15
romen	replacing keymat+frame?	18:15
* GAN900 wonders if they'll do another proto round.		18:15
DocScrutinizer	romen: only keymat	18:15
TiagoTiago	does the screen got tiny lenses that would focus the sunlight and burn stuff inside?	18:15
DocScrutinizer	romen: http://www.saremi-mobilfunk.de/product_info.php/info/p4575_Original-Nokia-N900-Keypad-QWERTY--english-.html	18:16
kerio	MohammadAG51: even with other/50 i get the usual restriction	18:16
romen	frals, yeah maybe, but still I will not use the Å, Ö, Ä keys very often I don't have so many sedish/finnish correspondants xD	18:16
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romen	(not to speak about the arrows xD)	18:17
frals	åäö is the shit ;-)	18:17
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romen	DocScrutinizer, my german is somewhere near my finnish/swedish, do they ship to finland?	18:18
DocScrutinizer	dunno, but probably yes	18:18
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TiagoTiago	is that your finnish?	18:20
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romen	DocScrutinizer, thanks! Anyway I will try to ask to some Nokia center near here if it is possible to change the keyboard through them, as I guess that with shipping costs to Finland the price will grow considerably	18:20
romen	TiagoTiago, my finnish, swedish and german are all around a level of 0 xD	18:21
romen	(among many other languages, unfortunately)	18:21
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TiagoTiago	could you get the parts from somthing like ebay and have the service tcenter assemble it for you?	18:22
E0x	hmm look like the desktop switching can get done via dbus , where i can find reference of maemo dbus ?	18:22
kerio	if you bribe them, sure	18:22
kerio	dbus-monitor	18:22
kerio	:)	18:22
TiagoTiago	:\	18:22
DocScrutinizer	romen: I'd say any Nokia center is supposed to perform this perfectly legitimate request	18:22
romen	TiagoTiago, do yuo think it would be even remotely possible?? In Italy (I'm Italian) they would be quite rude if I ask them to replace the keyboard of my device with a spare part provided by myself	18:23
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romen	well actually in my home town I've always had troubles with the only nokia (nad other brands) care center	18:24
TiagoTiago	if the spare part is made by the same brand and intended to be used with that device, what would they have against it?	18:24
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DocScrutinizer	romen: will your car repair shop be happy when you come for a oil swap and bring your own oil?	18:25
romen	TiagoTiago, that they cannot (over)charge you for it, therefore they will be surely able to come up with some (apparently to them) good reason to refuse it (and there will be nobody to complain with if you think the reason is not valid at all)	18:26
romen	DocScrutinizer, luckily I don't yet own a car: so many troubles, expenses and taxes xD	18:27
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TiagoTiago	what if you offer to pay them the equivalent to the profit they would have if you bought an equivalent part from them?	18:27
kerio	as i said, bribe them	18:28
TiagoTiago	ah	18:28
DocScrutinizer	TiagoTiago: won't fly, as they are liable for the quality of the work, and you might bring a component with hidden defect	18:28
TiagoTiago	i see	18:28
romen	TiagoTiago, they would not admit that the real reason is that they would overcharge you for the spare part in addition to the workload for exchange the parts xD, kerio's solution is more fashionable in Italy xD	18:29
kerio	romen: IT_it here	18:29
kerio	sadly	18:29
TiagoTiago	it's a warranty voiding procedure?	18:29
DocScrutinizer	well, maybe if you come and just ask to help you do the swap, then they might do it on a different legal base	18:29
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romen	DocScrutinizer, that would be one way to start a good "bribing" approach	18:30
DocScrutinizer	yep	18:30
TiagoTiago	does your lens cover make a litle noise whenyou shake your N900 a bit?	18:31
DocScrutinizer	not here	18:31
mirf	mine does	18:32
mirf	but I think tis' actaully the stand	18:32
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TiagoTiago	hm, might be	18:32
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mirf	yeah the noise changes when I open the stand	18:32
mirf	its' a lot more loose	18:32
romen	anyway before buying it from germany and try to do it myself I'll ask here in Finland if they can "regularly" do it and how much will I be charged, they are usually so kind here in Finland xD	18:32
TiagoTiago	indeed it changes	18:33
TiagoTiago	lol, thanx for pointing it out :)	18:33
DocScrutinizer	romen: tell them you asked on Nokia technical support forum and it's just 2 screws and 10min of work, so they don't charge you for a complete disassembly of device	18:34
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TiagoTiago	hm, but if i hold it still the noise doesn't go away....	18:34
romen	TiagoTiago, here too, there is something moving and making some noise on shaking near the cover lens, but it does not stop when I hold with fingers the stand and the lens cover...	18:35
DocScrutinizer	lens cover is notorious to have... issues	18:36
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romen	TiagoTiago, and the little "shaking" noise was there since I unboxed it, is not something recent	18:36
DocScrutinizer	seems they even reworked the slider design	18:37
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TiagoTiago	ok, I think i've figured it out, it's the memory hard holder	18:37
romen	exactly	18:38
romen	I figure it right now xD	18:38
romen	*figured	18:38
TiagoTiago	card*	18:38
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DocScrutinizer	noobs, did you think about taking off the backlid and shaking it without the whole phone attached to it :-D	18:39
romen	DocScrutinizer, only now xD	18:39
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romen	that's how I figured it out (well, 5 months is not so long to coming out with this brilliant idea xD)	18:39
TiagoTiago	lol, i took of the lid and shook the phone xD	18:39
romen	TiagoTiago, my card holder is still empty, what about yours? does it make noise even with a memory card inside?	18:40
DocScrutinizer	no, doesn't	18:40
TiagoTiago	though i guess that is not all that dumb considering we had just noticed that holding the parts on the lid still didn't stop the noise	18:41
TiagoTiago	i don't have a card to put there yet :/	18:41
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DocScrutinizer	maybe you get a 1GB for free, when you get your next grocery shopping	18:42
TiagoTiago	are they that cheap over there?	18:43
DocScrutinizer	I guess they're 3 bucks if you can find any	18:43
DocScrutinizer	not checked	18:43
TiagoTiago	hm	18:43
TiagoTiago	are the cards the N900 use also victim of the pandemy of falsified mass storage devices like how it has been going on with Kingston pendrives?	18:45
pcfe	is your empty internal card holder in the open or locked position (as per the writing on the holder)	18:45
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TiagoTiago	it make noise unlocked, but locking still doesn't kill the noise	18:46
TiagoTiago	more noise*	18:46
TiagoTiago	damn batery sucking progs	18:47
pcfe	considering the price of cards thes days, if it bothers you, buy a small one	18:48
DocScrutinizer	TiagoTiago: (falsified) yes, there are falsified uSD, see http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=918. 1GB sandisk are 5.50, not 3.00	18:48
pcfe	as to false cards, my N900 did not come with a card IIRC, anyway, when buying just be sure to buy from a reputable source and not from the low end of the price range	18:48
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pcfe	then, when you have it, write it full of verifiable data and read the data back plus verify	18:49
DocScrutinizer	EUR	18:49
pcfe	say, for example an ISO image of some Linux distro (big file and comes with a md5 or sha checksum file	18:49
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romen	TiagoTiago, what do you mean with "pandemy of falsified mass storage devices"?	18:51
DocScrutinizer	dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/mmcblk1 count=1 bs=<size of card>; (well maybe count 1000, and size-of-card/1000) then do a md5sum	18:51
TiagoTiago	damn, just about 2 hours and almost 80% of charge used :\	18:51
TiagoTiago	yeah, a disease that has spreead all over the world	18:52
* DocScrutinizer wonders if N900 might sufer same uSD Vdd shortcircuit issue on empty holder, that's been found on Freerunner		18:52
MohammadAG51	doesn't the accelerometer support taps?	18:52
DocScrutinizer	yes	18:52
DocScrutinizer	even doubletaps	18:53
MohammadAG51	and isn't the accel always on?	18:53
DocScrutinizer	maybe	18:53
TiagoTiago	we could use that for mouse clicks and the touch screen for mouse hovering! :D	18:53
MohammadAG51	cool, then my post is half right	18:53
MohammadAG51	the other half i'll need to check	18:53
TiagoTiago	dunno about batttery consumption though	18:54
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SpeedEvil	The accel is not always on.	18:55
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SpeedEvil	However.	18:55
SpeedEvil	The 'tap' mode uses _lots_ less power than pollin it	18:55
DocScrutinizer	lis302 is reasonably modest with power. It's connected to Vdd2_8, so 'always on'	18:55
SpeedEvil	By always on, I mean enabled	18:55
DocScrutinizer	mhm, that's a sw issue though	18:55
SpeedEvil	tap mode just generates an interrupt on tap.	18:55
DocScrutinizer	yep	18:55
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SpeedEvil	As far as I'm aware there is nothing to handle this though, so it gets ignored as it's not exposed to software.	18:56
DocScrutinizer	honestly g-meter is never supposed to be polled	18:56
DocScrutinizer	if kernel driver does polling, then that's abysmal wrong and BAD(tm)	18:57
SpeedEvil	Well - it's not really	18:57
celesteh	how often does maep update it's maps? I'd like it to re-download once a week or once a month.	18:57
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DocScrutinizer	usually you have it in differential mode, and trigger on any kind of movement	18:57
SpeedEvil	celesteh: The openstreetmap servers are at their limit.	18:57
SpeedEvil	celesteh: they're running on donated bandwidth, and are pretty much pinning it.	18:57
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SpeedEvil	celesteh: In most places, there is not significant editing going on that would make updating much more than a couple of months worthwhile.	18:58
SpeedEvil	http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tile_usage_policy	18:58
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tobis87	Hi! Has anyone done nmon http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/aix/library/au-analyze_aix/ for the n900?	19:03
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SpeedEvil	It'	19:04
SpeedEvil	s a binary.	19:04
SpeedEvil	There is no source.	19:05
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SpeedEvil	So no, it can't work.	19:05
pupnik	bundyo never chats does he	19:05
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TiagoTiago\|AFK	gonna go eat, be back in a bit	19:06
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tobis87	SpeedEvil: Did you mean me? There is source: http://packages.ubuntu.com/lucid/nmon, and it only needs libncurses5-dev dependency. So I may be even able to compile it on the device. (gcc -o nmon lmon12f.c -Wall -D JFS -D GETUSER -D LARGEMEM -D DEBIAN -lncurses)	19:13
kerio	i read that as "nom"	19:14
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SpeedEvil	tobis87: I couldn't see any link to the source	19:14
SpeedEvil	Is there actual source anywhere?	19:14
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tobis87	tobis87: http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/pool/universe/n/nmon/nmon_12f+debian.orig.tar.gz	19:15
tobis87	argh I meant SpeedEvil:	19:15
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celesteh	SpeedEvil: I use open cycle maps, and my area (london) is in the midst of ading new cycle routes and other infrastructure for bikes	19:16
celesteh	SpeedEvil: I should donate to the OSM project, though	19:16
SpeedEvil	cehteh: ah - fair enough. london is better mapped	19:16
SpeedEvil	celesteh:	19:17
SpeedEvil	celesteh: I don't off-hand know how you'd convince maep to redownload periodically though.	19:17
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SpeedEvil	tobis87: http://www.mauve.plus.com/nmon - seems to work	19:19
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SpeedEvil	Though it's badly written.	19:19
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SpeedEvil	(coredumps with no proc)	19:19
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kerio	is maep better than mappero?	19:20
SpeedEvil	dunno.	19:20
joga	maep is nice and simple in comparison	19:20
joga	mappero is a bit weird imo	19:20
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joga	it can do more though	19:21
ShadowJK	instead of reloading it'd be nice if there existed sensible way to check if it has been modifiedvupdated	19:21
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SpeedEvil	ShadowJK: yes, I'm unsure if there is a nice way to do that with OSM/opencyclemap tiles	19:21
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tobis87	SpeedEvil: Thanks, I will try it but I found that the source from debian is newer. I will try compiling it	19:26
SpeedEvil	tobis87: that was the compiled version from the tarball you linked	19:26
tobis87	SpeedEvil: Yes, I know thank you for that. At first I thought it would be hard to compile it, but since it is only one file, I will try it myself.	19:28
SpeedEvil	looks like an interesting tool.	19:29
SpeedEvil	A proper package would be useful.	19:29
tobis87	SpeedEvil: Yes this is my problem, I would do it. But I can't get going with scratchbox. I don't have problems backporting the newest firefox to the my oldest Ubuntu machines (7.10). But I fail miserably with working inside a vm.	19:31
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celesteh	I used to use Maemo Mapper with my n800 and it was birlliant, but the new version seems really unfinished	19:36
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TiagoTiago	well, i'm heading off, cya	19:41
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johnsq	Hi	19:52
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Finnish	How is Meego compared to Maemo on Nokia N900?	20:27
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Stskeeps	maemo's a consumer OS, meego's not atm	20:28
Stskeeps	:P	20:28
Finnish	Ah, ok	20:28
pronto	to me meego seems likes its for idiots(majority of people) and maemo is for linux nerds	20:28
Finnish	Buahahaa	20:29
pronto	but i've only used meego on a usb boot on my netbook	20:29
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MiXu-	Maemo does feel like an OS designed for linux nerds	20:30
MiXu-	It's like ubuntu but on a phoen.	20:30
pronto	O_o	20:30
pronto	that dont make sense	20:30
pronto	considing ubuntu is not for linux nerds	20:31
MiXu-	Ubuntu is for linux nerds. Don't get me started. :D	20:31
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MiXu-	If you use linux you are a linux nerd D:	20:31
pronto	uubuntu is for people who still want windows but also want linux	20:31
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MiXu-	Ubuntu is way too difficult for anyone who's not "computer literate"	20:31
pronto	that can be debated	20:32
MiXu-	Sure everything is ok if the only thing you do is use OoO and Firefox.	20:32
MiXu-	But people just don't understand why some stuff won't work on ubuntu.	20:32
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alterego	Windows is also pretty dificult for people that are not computer literate ..	20:33
alterego	As with pretty much any computer OS	20:33
PhonicUK	MiXu, most comp illiterates/semi literates i show ubuntu to find it easier than windows	20:33
PhonicUK	mostly because apps are organized by category	20:34
alterego	PhonicUK: I think it's easier too ...	20:34
MiXu-	PhonicUK: The UI is pretty easy yes	20:34
MiXu-	And the window manager is nice and flashy	20:34
pronto	ubuntu is like the retarded dog in a wolf pack	20:34
PhonicUK	and all apps are managed in the package manager	20:34
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MiXu-	PhonicUK: "all" meaning the ones community provides	20:34
Jartza	even my mom uses ubuntu	20:35
GAN900	PhonicUK, my limited testing backs that up.	20:35
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Jartza	but she was always in problems with windows	20:35
PhonicUK	which provides almost everything the average user needs	20:35
Jartza	she's Really computer-illiterate	20:35
PhonicUK	all the essentials	20:35
MiXu-	Then John from Hickville buys Adobe Photoshop to edit his family photos and is surprised that it won't work.	20:35
GAN900	The only sticking point tends to be specialized stuff for Windows. Accounting, photo editing, PIM, etc.	20:35
MiXu-	John takes his pc to service to have it fixed, and they install windows.	20:35
PhonicUK	if hes buying photoshop just to edit family photos, hes got other problems	20:36
Jartza	that happens too, yes.	20:36
MiXu-	PhonicUK: Yes. Not understanding shit about IT.	20:36
MiXu-	And that's 85% of population	20:36
Jartza	but I don't think that's too common. would happen with mac as well, if it was.	20:36
MiXu-	Jartza: There's photoshop for mac	20:36
PhonicUK	pre install gimp and getting a gimp book is what i do	20:36
MiXu-	But you do have a point	20:36
luke-jr	MiXu-: troll	20:37
Jartza	MiXu-: sure, but if you just go and buy "photoshop", they most propably just sell you a windows version :)	20:37
luke-jr	alterego is correct	20:37
GAN900	MiXu-, who buys Photoshop?	20:37
luke-jr	KDE is far easier to use than Windows	20:37
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MiXu-	luke-jr: Yes, I am in a trolly mood today. But I'm saying Ubuntu is still way too difficult for majority of people, as people tend to be totally clueless when it comes to IT.	20:37
PhonicUK	all you need to explain is that they shouldnt buy any software and only use the package manager	20:37
wazd	oh crap, here comes the smoke again :(	20:38
luke-jr	MiXu-: Ubuntu sucks. A fair comparison is Kubuntu.	20:38
Jartza	my mom thinks meego was much messier and harder-to-use than ubuntu :)	20:38
Jartza	I tried meego on her laptop	20:38
PhonicUK	Ubuntu is only hard if yoju are too used to the windows ecosystem	20:38
PhonicUK	sdent from my n900	20:38
MiXu-	I just read about a study today that stated that young people aren't actually computer literate. Many young kids don't even know how to google efficiently.	20:38
wazd	RST38h: looks and smells like you were right :(	20:38
PhonicUK	most people just type their question into google as plain english	20:39
luke-jr	PhonicUK: for the most part, that's the only way to do it…	20:39
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alterego	MiXu-: abundantly apparent when you read some of the questions in #linux .. even in here.	20:40
MiXu-	Yep :)	20:40
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E0x	not python-xlib in maemo 5 ?	20:41
E0x	i saw the package is available in Diablo	20:41
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*** ChanServ sets mode: +o DocScrutinizer		21:12
*** DocScrutinizer sets mode: +f ##overflow		21:12
*** DocScrutinizer sets mode: +j 3:20		21:12
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DocScrutinizer	[notice] channel has been set to join-throttling with forward. For join events exceeding a rate of 3 joins in 20 seconds, users are forwarded to ##overflow	21:15
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DocScrutinizer	if you encounter any recurring problems with this setting, please drop a note to any of the chanops (/msg chanserv access #maemo list)	21:17
chadi	does purging an app clear its settings from /home ?	21:18
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DocScrutinizer	nope, usually not	21:18
DocScrutinizer	though depends on particular app pkg	21:19
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chadi	aptitude... then what is the difference between remove and purge?	21:19
mortini	remove just removes it's package, but generally leaves some junk behind	21:19
mortini	purge removes said junk	21:19
chem\|st	purge will remove config files installed with the package	21:20
mortini	like, a config file that's in that path	21:20
mortini	er, pacakge.	21:20
chem\|st	usally the ones in home are not installed but created once a user starts the app	21:20
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chadi	umm ok ty	21:23
DocScrutinizer	as apt can't now about that fact, it depends what package maintained decided to do on postremove script. Best practice is to keep those files	21:23
DocScrutinizer	know*	21:23
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chadi	and any idea where hermes stores its configuration files?	21:23
DocScrutinizer	just a generic idea: use strace hermes, and check for the file handles opened	21:24
chem\|st	2nd	21:25
chadi	DocScrutinizer: "strace hermes" in a terminal? That doesn't seem to work.	21:25
chem\|st	oh hell I still am 12mA above a real deep sleep...	21:25
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DocScrutinizer	sorry, no idea what hermes is at all, so can't give better advice, except RTFM	21:26
chadi	DocScrutinizer: I mean, the strace command is not found..	21:27
DocScrutinizer	aaah, it's in tools	21:27
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chadi	okay	21:28
DocScrutinizer	http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5	21:28
mortini	chadi: dpkg -L	21:28
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mortini	gives a listing from the pkg anyways	21:28
chem\|st	chadi: it is a damn phone... all stuff for debugging and such most devel must be installed from terminal...	21:29
chadi	chem\|st: no problem at all :-)	21:30
chem\|st	good! ;)	21:30
chem\|st	just wanted to make captain obvious happy, you will find some stuff provided in "tools" and some other in "extras-devel"	21:31
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tobis87	To find the packages which only have been removed, but no purged, you cold just do "dpkg -l \| grep ^rc"	21:46
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ShadowJK	gah	21:47
ShadowJK	I've had my N900 since November, and never encountered the bug where it gets stuck saying "Media format not supported" at everything	21:48
ShadowJK	and now it has happened twice in two days :/	21:48
ShadowJK	grrr	21:48
pronto	:O	21:48
* pronto hands ShadowJK a cookie		21:48
* ShadowJK can't figure out how to fix it		21:49
* DocScrutinizer blames ShadowJK for OC... err, nah		21:49
ShadowJK	very often I get this bug where it just does nothing	21:49
ShadowJK	restarting mafw-gst something usually fixes that	21:49
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ShadowJK	but it's not working for this issue :-)	21:49
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pronto	have you tried turning it on and off again?	21:50
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pupnik	super YAAY THANK YOU Tom Tanner for 'locate' package	21:51
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: added some mangled media file? The hw accel is known to blow chunks on oddly encoded media files, and won't recover from that until reboot	21:51
ShadowJK	I have too much stuff open	21:51
ShadowJK	I'd rather spend some time figuring out how to recover than spend half an hour on a power cycle each time it happens	21:51
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ShadowJK	nope, not afaik	21:51
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ShadowJK	It happens in the middle when I've paused and want to resume	21:52
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DocScrutinizer	odd	21:52
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DocScrutinizer	and nothing in dmesg I presume	21:53
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BCMM	half an hour for a power cycle?	21:53
ShadowJK	Well I need to copy/paste stuff from browser into notes, save that, copy paste it back to browser afterwards and so on...	21:55
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BCMM	but yeah, it would be useful to be able to reset the dsp from software	22:02
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kthomas_vh	very useful :)	22:03
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BCMM	is it theoretically possible?	22:03
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pupnik	skaven is a fantastic mod composer	22:05
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ilius	During flashing N900, is it possible to change rootfs to 27 GB memory?	22:12
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ilius	i have flasher-3.5 but i can not find any option for this	22:13
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kerio	ilius: rootfs is on the internal flash, not the eMMC	22:14
kerio	you can resize home in spite of MyDocs	22:15
kerio	(home also holds /opt)	22:15
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ilius	size of root partition is not really enough and not compatible with these much packages in meamo repo!!	22:17
ilius	how can i increase it?	22:17
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ilius	kerio: what do you mean "home also holds /opt" ? /opt is part of rootfs (mounted in /) and /home is in a separate device	22:18
jacekowski	no it's not	22:19
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kerio	/opt is binded to /home/opt/	22:20
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ilius	whats the size of home? (my n900 can boot up right now)	22:21
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ilius	most of application files will be installed to /usr, then i want to move /usr (or the root itself) to 27 GB device	22:22
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TiagoTiago	hi	22:24
TiagoTiago	microB keeps refreshing over and over again in some sites, what can i do to fix this?	22:25
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kerio	ilius: most of the application files will be installed in /opt/, because of how the programs are packetized	22:26
ilius	kerio: how can i move /usr (or the root itself) to 27 GB device? this is my question!	22:26
kerio	don't know if it's possible	22:26
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DocScrutinizer	ilius: if you don't know how to 'mount\|less', you probably shouldn't worry about all that	22:27
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TiagoTiago	isn't it just a matter of messing with the partitions of the 32 GB internal flash drive?	22:28
ilius	DocScrutinizer: yes i know that, but i was not deeped into it, and /opt was not matter for me	22:28
crashanddie	ilius: you can't	22:28
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ilius	:'(	22:28
DocScrutinizer	if you want to move /usr out of /, the you need to make sure it's monted early enough during boot, as maemo managed to mess up system configuration by mandatory use of some commands living in /usr/(s)bin ;-(	22:29
kerio	DocScrutinizer: let's just move / to the eMMC	22:29
kerio	:D	22:29
DocScrutinizer	or you fix that flaw/bug, by moving the corresponding commands to /(s)bin where they belong	22:30
TiagoTiago	Doesn't the file system allows for trivcking the os into reading/writing stuff in a different place than it thinks they are?	22:30
ilius	DocScrutinizer: it seems that /usr is needed before even any statup script go to run	22:30
ShadowJK	If there's a package in extras that uses much space on /, it's a bug that should be reported	22:30
Bactius	I'm confused. If I have a problem with the LED-pattern, should I describe it at maemo talk forums?	22:31
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: let's face it: optification is a bug on top of a bug	22:31
DocScrutinizer	~optification	22:31
infobot	optification is, like, a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs	22:31
Bactius	And under which category?	22:31
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ShadowJK	DocScrutinizer, I would just have had PREFIX=/opt/maemo/ , and called it /usr/pkg/ instead of /opt/whatever ;p	22:32
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TiagoTiago	somthing lieke symlinking the folder to another folder in the other parititon? (i don't know what i'm talking about, do i?)	22:34
ShadowJK	No I mean no symlinks	22:35
DocScrutinizer	TiagoTiago: you start to have a slight idea about what you're talking of	22:35
DocScrutinizer	TiagoTiago: but here it's done by bindmount	22:35
chem\|st	TiagoTiago: try again ;)	22:35
DocScrutinizer	not by symlinks	22:35
TiagoTiago	cool! :)	22:35
ShadowJK	right now stuff is compiled with PREFIX=/usr, and installed to /usr, then moved to /opt/whatever and symlinked from /usr	22:36
chem\|st	TiagoTiago: like matrix... there is no spoon	22:36
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: incredibly stupid botch	22:36
chem\|st	ShadowJK: did not undertand the initial though on that	22:36
TiagoTiago	indeed	22:36
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TiagoTiago	i can feel there is no spoon, but i still see the shiny silverware instead of raining green code	22:37
chem\|st	TiagoTiago: wrong pills my friend, wrong pills	22:38
TiagoTiago	lol	22:38
DocScrutinizer	lol	22:38
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chem\|st	just be aware of the truth... everything is a file	22:39
ShadowJK	hopefully with MeeGo we get new enough kernel that btrfs or logfs works, so we can sanely have / on a big emmc	22:39
DocScrutinizer	with uBoot on NAND ;-D	22:39
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kerio	i want DumbOS on the NAND and meego on the emmc	22:40
DocScrutinizer	DumbOS==maemo :-D	22:40
jacekowski	well, somebody would have to find enough time to port nand driver to work with uboot	22:41
DocScrutinizer	meego on eMMC seems feasible right now	22:41
DocScrutinizer	orly?	22:41
jacekowski	and we can get uboot to work	22:41
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: how's OM FR uBoot doing it then?	22:41
jacekowski	and replace nolo	22:41
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: OM FR have different nand	22:42
jacekowski	well, controlled differently	22:42
DocScrutinizer	why replace NOLO? it chainloads uBoot happily	22:42
TiagoTiago	is there somewhere i can see a roadmap-like thing for opening up Maemo & company?	22:42
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: where would you store kernel then?	22:42
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: hmm?	22:42
jacekowski	get rid of 2nd stage nolo	22:42
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: it's not like uBoot takes 127MB	22:43
jacekowski	and shove uboot there	22:43
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jacekowski	and then kernel can stay where it is at the moment	22:43
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DocScrutinizer	find the private key to sign it, and we'll all be thankful	22:43
jacekowski	2nd stage bootloader is not signed	22:44
jacekowski	only 1st stage bootloader is	22:44
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jacekowski	2nd stage is only checksummed	22:44
DocScrutinizer	uhuh	22:44
TiagoTiago	Has anyone managed to replace the firmware with a bootloader and thenload Maemo and anythingnelse people managed to maeke compatible with the device from less firm storage areas?	22:44
DocScrutinizer	well, seems you need to discuss that with Stskeeps and maybe timeless	22:44
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DocScrutinizer	they both disagree	22:45
DocScrutinizer	aiui	22:45
kerio	dumbos should run the phone to call by dialing numbers and to receive	22:45
jacekowski	1st. there is only one signature for nolo	22:45
jacekowski	2nd. no signature checking in 1st stage bootloader	22:46
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jacekowski	i'll try to replace 2nd stage nolo tomorrow	22:47
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TiagoTiago	why was it decided to make the os be firmer than plain software?	22:47
* DocScrutinizer writes a condolence card, to be prepared - just in case		22:47
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: i've already wiped mtd	22:47
jacekowski	well, part of it	22:48
jacekowski	mtd0	22:48
jacekowski	the one with bootloader	22:48
koala_man	why am I getting a 302 Found "error" on the maemo repos?	22:48
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jacekowski	phone can be booted from usb using flasher and then nolo can be flashed	22:48
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jacekowski	so cat /dev/zero > /dev/mtd0 is safe	22:49
* RST38bis suddenly found another use for n900		22:49
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: great initiative on USB host mode	22:49
DocScrutinizer	jacekowski: anyway since there's absolutely no documentation about whole the bootprocess (that I'm aware of), I have not the slightest idea what you are talking about with 1. stage 2. stage and all that foo	22:49
DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: huh?	22:49
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jacekowski	1st stage - nolo x-loader	22:49
jacekowski	MLO on beagle board	22:49
jacekowski	2nd stage - real bootloader, uBoot, NoloScnd	22:50
RST38bis	N900 has much lower...eh..thermal profile than a laptop, so it is usable at 35oC with all windows closed	22:50
crashanddie	DocScrutinizer: deciding to release the binaries	22:50
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RST38bis	Got smaller screen of course, but still better than getting boiled alive	22:51
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DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: ooh that old thing, well it's kinda funny how I posted a "I'm considering that" previously and then MohammadAG51 "decided" on it. Anyway I got the feeling the way it's coming along now users again will get it completely wrong	22:52
MohammadAG51	DocScrutinizer, we discussed it here on IRC	22:53
jacekowski	DocScrutinizer: it goes like that - omap boot rom -> read 1st stage bootloader -> verify signature -> run it or shutdown or boot from usb -> 2nd stage bootloader -> kernel	22:53
crashanddie	DocScrutinizer: Well, having more people trying to reproduce it can only bring good things -- as long as you guys filter out the "doesn't work, sux" comments	22:53
MohammadAG51	DocScrutinizer, and we all know the status of the project atm	22:54
DocScrutinizer	not exactly. Filtering of sux is easy, it's the false positives that really tend to ruin your day	22:55
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG51: I'm not so sure "we all know"	22:55
MohammadAG51	it's stalled, now we all know	22:55
crashanddie	DocScrutinizer: then you need to find a way to easily filter out the false positives	22:55
crashanddie	MohammadAG51: depending on your definition of "we", "we" already knew	22:56
DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: that's as impossible as filtering out trolls at server level	22:56
DocScrutinizer	depending on your definition of "stall" you seem to miss quite a few details	22:56
crashanddie	DocScrutinizer: not if you ask for technical details (dmesg, amongst others), and fdisk information	22:57
DocScrutinizer	that's exactly the points that are going to ruin your day	22:57
* RST38bis feels like he is missing on a personal conflicts of sorts		22:57
RST38bis	once again, what is the matter?	22:58
DocScrutinizer	RST38bis: ???	22:58
pupnik	i have taken a n900 into a sauna briefly	22:58
MohammadAG51	RST38bis, nothing personal, normal discussion	22:58
RST38bis	hmm ok	22:58
MohammadAG51	pupnik, i put mine in a fridge once	22:58
RST38bis	pupnik: is it still alive?	22:59
TiagoTiago	mine feels warm all over after charging for a while somtimes	22:59
pupnik	no RST38bis but the killer was different	22:59
DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG51: maybe you noticed new users in #mhd, maybe you also read maemo_developers_device_queue wiki	23:00
MohammadAG51	I did	23:00
DocScrutinizer	and then we need to clearly know WHAT we are hoping to get from a mass deployment of a definitely borked kernel, for mere test purposes, and we need to publish that, and we need to give users the means to accomplish on gathering that info	23:01
RST38bis	pupnik: poor n900...	23:01
RST38bis	Doc: massive suffering of tmo lemmings, what else?	23:02
RST38bis	Isn't it a worthy goal?	23:02
pupnik	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrmIutAOooA Alright lastnight finland had VERY strange weather - stormfront at Hietanieme beach	23:02
DocScrutinizer	RST38bis: exactly - except hostmode devels drownng in the crap torrent	23:02
RST38bis	of course	23:02
* RST38bis does suspect few people really need the host mode though		23:03
TiagoTiago	microB keeps refreshing some pages, mostly unusablr, any idea how i can fix this?	23:03
kerio	i still want the hostmode :(	23:03
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crashanddie	RST38bis: well, host mode was just fun	23:04
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crashanddie	RST38bis: you're not a true NIT convert until you've seen johnx setup a complete desktop system with only his n800 as computer in a couple of minutes	23:04
chem\|st	kerio: even my notebook uses less power than my n900 so get off with stuff using power...	23:05
RST38bis	hmm... yes I can appreciate that but prefer bt peripherals	23:05
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DocScrutinizer	at least one thing is for sure: publishing a hostmode test kernel prematurely, without proper announcement about what it is exactly, what we expect it to do and not to do, and especially without giving users one-click solutions to create proper reports, we will waste a big chance as no noob-user will give it a second try just for us comin along like "duh, we forgot: please do #a lsusb, #a dmesg>logfile, #a foo bar..."	23:06
kerio	noob-users? on my N900?	23:08
chem\|st	crashanddie: my management was going uweeeee when I plugged it to the beamer and used an bt-pen for presentation	23:08
RST38bis	have you thought of integrating changes into titan's kernel?	23:08
MohammadAG51	RST38bis, I suggested it, but it might conflict while testing	23:08
DocScrutinizer	hthey woll com ebitching at us for 2 weeks, then ask for a working kernel and otherwise turn a way from it	23:08
MohammadAG51	hmm, I like the idea of something logging dmesg + usb statemachine	23:08
crashanddie	chem\|st: yeah, I did a few presentations using the N900's TV output too	23:09
mord	pupnik: it /was/ rather scary	23:09
* ShadowJK has lost a DVB box so far		23:09
TiagoTiago	how does the main camera handles running behind a visible light filter (like a couple of layers of overexposed phpotographic film) ?	23:09
chem\|st	crashanddie: the office's equipment is quiet low so tv out is fair enough ;)	23:09
ShadowJK	wasn'r qucik enough to unplug it when thuderatorm appeared :)	23:09
RST38bis	well at least that huge gaping asshole of a storm did not stay	23:10
DocScrutinizer	mord: see? we need to know what we want to ASK before we deploy a kernel for users to give us the ANSWER	23:11
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DocScrutinizer	MohammadAG51: ^^^	23:11
DocScrutinizer	sorry mord ETAB	23:11
mord	DocScrutinizer: np	23:11
TiagoTiago	is there another channel for getting help with misbehaving default progs on the N900?	23:13
pupnik	chem\|st: you not being stupid makes me wonder what you mean about 'notebook uses less power than n900'	23:13
DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: you also seen red areas bleeding out to the right, on TV out?	23:13
DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: like chan tabs in red on xchat illegible	23:14
crashanddie	DocScrutinizer: can't say I have	23:14
DocScrutinizer	maybe just my TV	23:14
crashanddie	DocScrutinizer: I only used pictures generated from PPT	23:14
TiagoTiago	you should try on a different device	23:15
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RST38bis	Doc: for a variety of reasons you wont get good tv output from N900	23:15
DocScrutinizer	RST38bis: I'm aware	23:15
* lcuk has variable experience with tvout		23:15
DocScrutinizer	but that particular effect is kinda bug	23:16
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RST38bis	naah	23:16
RST38bis	red/blue bleeding is standard when trying to show high contrast digital picture on tv	23:16
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DocScrutinizer	mhm, ack	23:17
RST38bis	and you have got a pal tv right?	23:17
DocScrutinizer	so the contrast too high on my TV	23:17
DocScrutinizer	yep	23:17
TiagoTiago	got any test pic that would make that effeect obvious i can have?	23:17
RST38bis	yea if you can lower it do	23:17
RST38bis	or you can try lowering it with resistors	23:18
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DocScrutinizer	well it's probably the sensitivity of AV-in of TV that's mismatched to N900	23:18
DocScrutinizer	yep, exactly	23:18
RST38bis	resistors.	23:18
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TiagoTiago	i haven't noticed any artifacts in my tv while display the tv-out from my N900 so far	23:20
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tobis87	DocScrutinizer: Could you not just make this experimental kernel dependend on a script which runs in the background. And this script would query all informations you would need and send these if the wifi would be connected? I don't like the idea, since it is how mirco$oft would do it, but it may be neccacery for the noobs.	23:20
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TiagoTiago	i mean, other than the stretching due to brightenss and thefuvked up tops scanlines; but those issues are of the TV hardware itself, any input will have them	23:22
TiagoTiago	fucked up*	23:22
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RST38bis	not quite	23:23
DocScrutinizer	tobis87: sure we could - just we didn't discuss THAT yet	23:23
RST38bis	digital sources tend to generate high contrast output with higher resolution than tv can handle	23:23
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TiagoTiago	hm, i've just switched it to pal and it's a mess	23:24
RST38bis	this causes all kinds of artefacts, especially if this analog output is shown at digital tv panel	23:24
DocScrutinizer	(TV-out) http://share.ovi.com/media/joerg900.public/joerg900.10054	23:24
tobis87	DocScrutinizer: This just came to my mind, I think they did something like this for ubuntu as well, I remember uninstalling it was first thing I did.	23:25
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TiagoTiago	gonna try hooking up directly to the TV insteada going thru the VCR to see if gets any better	23:25
pupnik	does X11 have temporal dithering?	23:26
TiagoTiago	damn fatass CRT with plugs only in the behind :/	23:27
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DocScrutinizer	pupnik: ?? only with >200fps?	23:28
pupnik	DocScrutinizer: i dislike banding, my eyes seem to be very sensitive to it	23:29
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DocScrutinizer	you mean that rainbow thing seen on colorwheel projectors?	23:30
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TiagoTiago	curious, my TV doesn't even show colors with PAL directly pluggrd.....	23:32
DocScrutinizer	maybe it's not a PAL device? :-D	23:32
TiagoTiago	like with 16 bit gradients?	23:32
TiagoTiago	it acepts NTSC, PAL-M and -N	23:33
DocScrutinizer	hmm, but probably does no good job on autodetect	23:33
TiagoTiago	which PAL does the N900 sends?	23:34
DocScrutinizer	seems you'll need to kick it to PAL	23:34
RST38bis	pal-m	23:34
TiagoTiago	set it manually to each format, still black and white, with some of the grays waving moire patterrns	23:35
RST38bis	hmmm, xchat does not run browser on url click	23:35
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kerio	RST38bis: url hold	23:36
TiagoTiago	it also got some dashes just above the screen (the TV is 4:3) on the top left side	23:36
DocScrutinizer	RST38bis: click&hold	23:38
TiagoTiago	also for some reason it seems to wobble side to side kinda like how when the degaussers are running, but not as strong and no rainbowing	23:38
RST38bis	ah! thanks!	23:38
TiagoTiago	i need a new TV :\	23:39
chem\|st	TiagoTiago: I don't even own one...	23:39
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TiagoTiago	a program to gerate images that got patterrns like those ties and suits that flicker colored moire patterns would be fun	23:40
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TiagoTiago	generate*	23:40
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TiagoTiago	hm, now i'm getting the same issue with pal via the VCR...	23:42
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kerio	oh ffs my vibra is stuck again	23:54
kerio	i really need to send it to repairs :(	23:55
TiagoTiago	be back in a bit	23:56
* TiagoTiago is away: I'm busy		23:56
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