IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2010-07-05

Macerguess i have to do the pause and play thing00:00
dotblankI played that breakout game clone00:01
dotblankruns really really well00:01
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keriohow did they come up with *that* name?00:01
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dotblankbut yea this game is fun00:04
dotblankso much stuff going on the screen00:04
dotblankvery intense00:04
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jogaI've found that some rpg like lufia II with drnoksnes is excellent entertainment with the n900, you can just put it to background when needed and it doesn't require speed :)00:05
joga(or awkwardness of the keyboard, like in super mario or such where you constantly have to press multiple keys etc)00:06
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dotblankarrow keys plus z and x work well00:07
dotblankbut thats about it00:07
Maceramazing that th world is still infatuatted with break out00:07
Maceri was more concerned with games like quake3 :)00:08
Macerwhich runs very well on the n90000:08
Macerit would be interesting to get a mouse+kb going and to hook it up to the tv00:08
MohammadAG51breakout? where?00:08
kerioi thought they already did00:09
Macerkerio: yeah?00:09
Maceri know getting a bt keyboard to work on it totally sucks00:09
Macerand the bug is irrelevant if you file it :)00:09
MohammadAG51disable touch screen, pair bt keyboard and mouse00:09
MohammadAG51just make a package that would sed the configuration file00:09
MohammadAG51if you cba to do it manually00:09
MacerMohammadAG51: i want maemo4 type bluetooth keyboard support :-P00:10
MohammadAG51Macer, mind shedding a light on me? never had a maemo 4 device00:10
dotblanktechnoballz is awesome00:10
dotblankcan't get past the first boss00:10
MohammadAG51or a chinook one00:10
Macerin the configuration/settings app00:10
Maceryou can add a bluetooth keyboard incredibly easily00:10
MohammadAG51so bt support got downgraded00:11
Macerdirect support yes00:11
Macerit regressed00:11
Macerto get a bt keyboard working in m5 you have to edit a config file00:11
Macerand add keymaps00:11
Macerall of which maemo4 didd without so much hassle00:12
Macermaemo4 even had my su8w listed :)00:12
Maceron my n810 running maemo 4 all i had to do was go to settings.. and pick my bt keyboard that i paired up to it just as easily00:12
Macerbut then again... i had cups too :)00:13
Macerwhere is PB00:13
Macerhe would make good things :)00:13
Macerhe had a whole kde pkg for the n8x0 :)00:14
MohammadAG51so, fremantle was a downgrade?00:14
Macerother than the gles.. yes :)00:15
Macermaemo4 had more functionality00:15
Macerwell.. other than gles and the phone part00:15
Macerand i suppose the cam too ifyou're into that sort of thing00:16
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ruxpin"This APT has Super Cow Powers." << wtf?? :)00:22
ruxpinwithin scratchbox00:23
luke-jrI think all apts have super cow powers00:23
ruxpinoh yeah, same message on my N900 :)))00:23
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ruxpinnever noticed before but yes, same on my ARM debian :)00:24
MohammadAG51doesn't the iPhone do that too?00:24
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keriowell, not the iphone 400:25
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ruxpiniPhone has apt-get?00:25
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kerioif you jailbreak it00:25
kerioCydia is a graphical apt frontend00:26
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lardmanevening chaps00:27
MohammadAG51evening lardman00:27
lardmanhey MohammadAG5100:27
kerioruxpin: telesphoreo is based on apt00:28
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Maceri seriously think that tmob cuts off internet connections on purpose00:33
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keriowires ftw00:33
kerioradio sucks00:34
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GeneralAntillescrashanddie, ping?00:43
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nadley_i have a problem I installed mymenu from extra-testing but now since I removed it my menu is broke :s00:47
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MohammadAGdefine "broke"00:47
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nadley_MohammadAG: some apps are missing my shorcut to app manager won't work00:49
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nadley_MohammadAG: any idea ?00:54
MohammadAGremove, it should get regenerated, problem is idk where is it00:54
MohammadAGcd /usr/share && find -name hildon.menu00:54
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nadley_MohammadAG: I find anything00:58
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nadley_but I find it in my home00:59
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MohammadAGnot sure where it's stored, I just know it was needed by ApMefo or sth01:00
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nadley_yes I delete it it regenerate the menu but I have no shortcut to appmanager01:01
Maceri sure wish the stand on this thing did the double click thing01:02
MohammadAGas root in terminal apt-get --reinstall  install hildon-application-manager01:02
keriois there a way to edit the menu with an interface that doesn't suck?01:06
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crashanddieDoes "Working at Nokia" qualify as being an interface?01:07
NadleyMohammadAG : I did it but nothing new :s01:08
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crashanddieJaffa: ping01:10
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Jaffacrashanddie: pong01:12
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GAN900Goodness EDGE is slow01:14
SpeedEvilNot as slow as GPRS01:14
GAN900After I upgraded to 3G, I swore I would never use EDGE again01:15
GAN900Then Nokia screwed me over.01:15
Macerno tmobile?01:15
kerio3G is an update? oh boy01:15
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Macerit is kind of odd they chose the tmob for the n90001:15
Macerwonder why01:15
Maceri guess because of the G1 success?01:16
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GAN900Macer, supposedly they were gonna have a subsidy01:16
GAN900But that, apparently, never panned out01:17
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GAN900So they just screwed the majority of their US customers.01:17
GAN900Macer, and, no, I'm on a family plan with 3 iPhones. . . .01:17
Maceri doubt the majority01:19
* Nadley broke his now the apps menu is dead :d01:19
Macerthere are still n9x for att01:19
Macerstill a pretty good phone01:19
Maceri just so happened to be with tmob01:19
Maceri hate the fact that all they think about is att01:19
Macerwhen att is so damn disgusting01:19
Macerget your amily all n900s and swap so tey don't turn into apple monkeys01:20
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GAN900Majority of US GSM users are on AT&T01:22
GAN900VAST majority01:22
Macerand the vast majority of att customers have iphones and wouldn't even know what an n900 was if you told them01:23
Macersorry but that's the sad fact :)... n900s are niche01:23
Macerand maybe 1% of that market would use a phone that doesn't go into portrait mode01:23
Macerand costs the same as a new iphone01:23
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Macerbecause devs are working on making a small computer and avoiding the fact that an n900 is now a phone and should act as one01:24
Macerit's not some internet tablet toy that only 10000 people bought :)01:24
asjt-mobile is 30.8mil, att is 71.3m sprint is 51.9m and verizon 67.2m01:25
Macerit is a phone that only 1000 people bought because they were too busy debating over not adding features because they wanted to stay true to an internet tablet instead of realizing it isn't anymore but a phone with a ton of potential01:25
Macerlost potential as it seems :)01:25
Maceri mean don't get me wrong.. i love my n900 but i can't see the cattle using it and understanding what it can really do01:25
asj(I don't understand how sprint has so many customers)01:26
Macer4G ;)01:26
Macerand i'm sure those statistics cound prepay phones which it shouldn't01:26
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Macerthat is roughly 190million ... there are 250million adults capable of buying phones and roughly 200million underage children. if you are counting customers then they would all have to be adults.. there is no way that high of a percentage have cell phones01:28
GAN900asj, Nextel01:28
asjMacer: 2 phones, work/home01:28
GAN900Macer, the vast majority of AT&T customers own featurephones.01:28
asjMacer: US population is 300mil, not 45001:29
* Nadley need to reflash :s01:29
Ken-Youngasj He's counting illegals too.01:29
asjKen-Young: then he's watching too much Fox01:29
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Ken-Youngasj Well put!01:30
crashanddieGAN900: get back on your desktop01:30
Macerok so 122 million adults01:30
Macerthat can be "customers"01:30
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Macerwhat is it.. about 65% over 18?01:31
SpeedEvilWon't somebody think of the children!01:31
asjMacer: this can only increase though, in our household we have 5 sims01:31
SpeedEvilWhen was the last time you saw a 5yo without a phone.01:31
Macerchildren can't sign contracts01:32
asjand there's only 2 of us, imagin if we had kids :)01:32
* SpeedEvil has maybe ... 8?01:32
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SpeedEvil(SIMs, not kids)01:32
MacerSpeedEvil: you scared me when you said maybe :)01:32
SpeedEvilI think most have expired by now01:32
asjSpeedEvil: this is active01:32
Nadleygood night guys01:33
Macerthey have to be counting prepay phones01:33
Nadleysee you01:33
SpeedEvilOnly I think 3 active01:33
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Macerespecially with today's unemployment rates :)01:33
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Macereither that or they are counting accounts in default as well.. those numbers are way too high01:33
Macerdon't tell the shareholders01:33
asjMacer: if you're unemployed the cell is probably the last thing you'll get rid of (though going prepaid might be smart, ok it would be smart for a lot of people)01:33
Maceri'm sure they find all types of ways to bloat their numbers01:33
Macerasj: i pay like 65/month for my n900 ;)01:34
Macerthe same phone with att would be like 11001:34
* SpeedEvil pays 3.01:34
* SpeedEvil is cheap.01:34
* ShadowJK pays about 1201:34
Maceri remember when i had my n95 and they said it would be an additioal $50 to tether.. they were nuts01:34
Macerthen they told me their shit network wasn't the reason my $600 n95 was dropping the internet connection01:35
asjwhen we were in the US I always used prepaid, it was $15-30/mo.  Most it was data, very little voice01:35
Macerso i put my sim in their shitty razr01:35
Macersame problems everywhere in chicago01:35
Macertmobiel just seems to work :) unless i have a really bad signal.. but that is kind of rare except where i was earlier01:35
Macerit is cheaper too.. and i'm not under contract anymore so i can threaten cancellation01:36
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Macerah well.. anyways. i have to go ahead and figure out what else needs to be done to this artigo. at one point i was going to use my n810 as a server but i couldn't find it01:36
Macerthat would be low powered :)01:37
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GAN900crashanddie, but it's all the way upstairs. :(01:44
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lardmannight chaps01:53
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crashanddielardman|gone: night lardy01:58
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tremnite all, sweet dreams02:17
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orangeyhello all!02:31
orangeyboo to the topic : )02:31
orangeythough i must admit it's sooo beautiful the way they play02:32
orangeyI have a question02:32
orangeyI have "2.5g" on my n90002:32
orangeyvia an EDGE network in Canada02:32
FauxFauxTHE EDGE02:32
orangeyI'm trying to use VOIP through it, but am not really having success02:33
orangeyam I wasting my time here, or is this a question of optimization?02:33
orangeyi.e., picking codecs, etc.02:33
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orangey1aaand back : )02:44
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orangey1so, any thoughts on SIP via EDGE?02:44
pupnikwhat is your throughput up/down orangey102:45
orangey1you mean via
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pupnikwhatever you can do for a speed test02:45
orangeyabout 300 / 10002:46
pupnikthat should give you a set of usable codecs02:46
orangeykilobits, that is02:46
orangeybut, for example, I see that g729 claims it's <10kb/s02:47
pupnikso you want a codec that can do 10kB/s effective02:47
orangeyis g729 kilo*bit* or byte?02:47
orangeyI thought it was 10 kilobit02:47
orangeyyeah. 8 kilobits per second is what it says when I'm looking02:48
pupnikgood luck.  worked for me with some help on the provider side02:48
orangeyI'm actually not sure how to even know which codec is being used for a call02:48
orangeyoh yeah?02:48
orangeywith edge speeds?02:48
pupniki don't know what codec was used02:48
pupniknever tried02:48
orangeywhat's your setup?02:49
pupnikit's gone unfortunately02:49
asjI've done sip over edge and the main problem was latency, it's >300ms, and very audible02:49
orangeyasj: Latency is a surmountable problem for me02:49
orangeythe main issue is that I hear almost nothing of the other person (very choppy) and they hear absolutely nothing of me02:49
asjorangey: ok, and jitter is through the roof too02:50
asjthere's only so much you can do02:50
orangeywhat is jitter?02:50
orangeyis that the robotic quality?02:50
orangeyasj: what's your setup?02:51
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asjorangey: jitter is change in latency so if one packet takes 500ms and the next takes 750ms you have 250ms of jitter02:51
MohammadAGquite enjoyable :P
asjorangey:  I don't have a setup that works over edge, it's not useable02:52
orangeyasj: ah02:52
orangeyasj: in that case, what have you tried? Have you played with codecs?02:52
orangeyasj: also, what cell provider?02:52
asjorangey: yes I played with codecs, it was att02:53
orangeyasj: *sigh*02:55
asjworks ok over 3g ;)02:55
orangeythe most frustrating part is actually that my provider has sublime 3g speeds on different bands02:55
orangeyasj: you switched providers?02:55
asjand countries02:55
orangeyi'm contemplating either getting another phone to tether02:55
orangeyasj: where are you now02:55
orangeyor getting a motorola droid 202:56
orangeywhich appears the same phone save for android02:56
orangeyit appears that my provider doesn't give g72902:57
asjthen switch phones, <shrug>02:57
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Venemohi guys!02:58
orangeyasj: you think a cheap tether phone would be too much hassle?02:58
asjtoo much of a pain for me02:58
Venemodoes anyone know why the behaviour of the keyboard changed in PR 1.2 when I remap some Fn key combinations?02:59
orangeyhmm. time to see if this works well with 72902:59
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orangey(I'm using a different voip provider to test 729)02:59
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pytherappmefo is a fantastic app03:13
orangeyis there such a thing as a cell modem that I can use to extend the 3g reach of my n900 so I can pick up more networks and such?03:14
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orangeyhmm. interesting..03:18
orangeythis might be the solution for now!03:18
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Termanagood morning03:31
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GAN900Don't you hate dysnomia?04:19
GAN900General you04:20
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obsidiethhas anyone installed a zagg invisible shield on the n900?05:20
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GAN900I wish Nokia would proof Ovi Store item descriptions.05:27
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WormFoodis it normal for the N800 to power on when the battery is inserted? It seems my power button isn't working, and every time I insert the battery, it turns on. I don't remember it acting this way in the past. I've taken it apart, and disconnected the switches, and it still powers on (which leads me to believe it isn't the switch at fault, but something on the motherboard.05:28
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mortinihm, i think i like firefox on maemo a bit more than opera05:29
WormFoodmy N800 has been working well for the last 2 1/2 years, but last time I go to use it, it has every piece of nokia equipment I own has problems. I take my N85 back to them under warranty, and they refuse to fix it.....never again will I buy a nokia product.05:30
WormFoodThe only reason I bought my N800 was to use as a SIP I guess I'll just go buy a SIP phone, since the N800 quit working right.05:32
crashanddieWormFood: what problems do you appear to have with the n800?05:35
WormFoodit acts like the power button is constantly pressed05:35
WormFoodcan't turn it on, or off, or unlock it....when I insert the battery, it just powers on05:35
crashanddieWormFood: that's usually an easy fix. You can use precision (flat) screwdrivers, and use one that is slightly bigger and file it off05:35
crashanddiekeep filing until you have the right size for the star screws05:36
WormFoodand I disconnected all the buttons from the motherboard, and it STILL acts that way, which leads me to believe it is something on the motherboard05:36
crashanddiethere are repair manuals all over the internet05:36
TermanaCan someone that has an n810 and an n900 tell me what the size difference is?05:36
WormFoodI have the disassembly instructions, and the schematics05:36
* WormFood is an electronics tech05:36
crashanddieTermana: about 3/4 inch05:36
WormFoodcrashanddie, file off what? what are you talking about?05:37
Termanacrashanddie, so its around about the same size05:37
crashanddieTermana: no, smaller05:37
WormFoodthe power button isn't being pressed05:37
crashanddieWormFood: sorry, most people need instructions on how to unscrew the screws05:37
WormFoodI have the T6 torx05:37
WormFoodI have a whole set of those tiny torx and other weird bits05:38
crashanddieI'm sure you're proud05:38
WormFoodit is just a kit of stuff I bought for working on crap like this05:38
WormFoodnothing to be proud of :P05:38
SpeedEvilwhat do you mean by 'the button isn't being pressed' ?05:38
crashanddieSo you disconnected everything, but it's still autobooting?05:38
ssvbWormFood: there is also 'force-power-key' R&D flag, it would be a good idea to check what R&D flags are set for your device05:38
Termanacrashanddie, would it be fair to say with both of them closed, the n900 would fit about on top of the screen of an n810, a bit over?05:39
WormFoodcorrect crashanddie, even with the buttons disconnected05:39
WormFoodSpeedEvil, the switches are disconnected....the power button isn't stuck or being pressed, but still powers on05:39
crashanddieTermana: don't have both right here to check, but that's how I remember it anyway05:39
crashanddieTermana: pretty sure it fits in height, maybe not width05:40
WormFoodssvb, I have not changed any R&D flags. I'm aware of them (but forgot about them 'till you mentioned it) was working, but yesterday when I go to use, it is dead...I recharge the battery, and now the power button does not work (can't even unlock the screen or power it off)05:40
crashanddieTermana: get out your pixel measuring tape:
WormFoodssvb, would the force-power-key flag being set cause it to act the way I describe? (I sorta doubt it, but maybe)05:41
crashanddieWormFood: R&D flags can only be set by the flasher process as far as I can tell05:42
crashanddie(translation: they wouldn't change through normal operation of the device)05:42
WormFoodI wonder if somehow the firmware was corrupted (I seriously doubt it)05:42
ssvbWormFood: can't say for all the symptoms, but it triggers turning on the device on inserting the battery for sure05:42
crashanddiedoubt it too, however, when is the last time you flashed, and which repos are you running?05:43
WormFoodthat is what I was thinking too crashanddie05:43
WormFoodI'm running os2008, and last time I flashed it was probably 1 1/2 years ago05:43
WormFoodmaybe a little longer.05:43
WormFoodlast time I flashed it was shortly after OS2008 was made available05:44
crashanddiewell, you won't lose massive amounts of data, and I'm fairly sure that the latest OS2008 update is more recent than 1.5 years ago.
LiraNunawhoever sent me to #maemo-devel was surely playing a sick joke05:45
LiraNunathe channel isn't active at all05:45
crashanddieLiraNuna: he probably meant #maemo-devil05:46
LiraNunaQt on N900 is a joke, all I am experiencing is problems and non-working modules05:46
crashanddiePyQt or PySide?05:47
LiraNunaC++ Qt05:47
LiraNunatrying to download a file using QNetworkAccessManager and the app just hangs there05:48
WormFoodI can't find the last firmware I used. Probably got deleted or locked up on a dvd somewhere, but for sure I'm not running the latest05:48
WormFoodI'm download speed to China is pretty fast.....usually it is very slow (40 meg nvidia drivers were estimated to take 1 hour to download...I downloaded it to my server, then to my machine in 1 minute)05:50
GAN900Any German speakers want to do me a favor and summarize this for mwkn? ?05:51
GAN900pupnik? DocScrutinizer?05:51
WormFoodGAN900, did you try google translate? Sometimes it is good for a laugh05:52
WormFoodare there better schematics for the N800 than what i've been able to find. Page 5 of the schematics floating around on the Internet is too blurry to read05:53
GAN900WormFood, good thought.05:53
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GAN900Any German speakers want to do me a favor
GAN900Should be ^05:53
mortiniGAN900: not a german speaker, but what do you want?05:54
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mortinichrome auto-translate is nice05:54
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GAN900mortini, summarizing it for mwkn05:54
GAN900and falling asleep in the process, so my higher cognitive functions are shutting down. :P05:55
mortiniah, ok05:55
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crashanddieGAN900: I'm still awake, why aren't you?06:00
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WormFoodare the buttons on the N800 not on the schematics? I've looked everywhere for at least 20 minutes, and STILL can't find them. Am I overlooking them or are they just not there?06:01
GAN900crashanddie, because I'm employed. *g*06:02
GAN900WormFood, no idea, sorry.06:03
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crashanddieWormFood: not there (at least, on the n810 schems)06:03
WormFoodfigures :(06:03
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DocScrutinizerGAN900: sorry I'm sleeping06:07
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DocScrutinizerGAN900: c-base is a cool location. I wonder why they don't offer the page in English06:09
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GAN900Aye, the first Summit was there.06:20
GAN900I'd love to seem OpenMoko try a round two using MeeGo.06:24
GAN900Random brain-to-channel dump warning. :P06:28
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DocScrutinizer51lol, idiot spamming #freenode. Chosen the right channel :-P06:30
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DocScrutinizerGAN900: OM the Inc. won't do anything - at least with phones and MeeGo06:37
DocScrutinizerGAN900: AIUI OM is zombie or completely dead06:37
GAN900Wiki readers for everyone!06:37
DocScrutinizerthere's OM the community of course06:37
WormFoodyeah, I just checked it...and my N800 is the newest firmware --> Version of 'sw-release': RX-34+RX-44+RX-48_DIABLO_5.2008.43-7_PR_MR0     ----     The device is in production mode06:38
* WormFood sighs06:38
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DocScrutinizerGAN900: even WR I've seen with different brand label recently - dunno what's going on there06:38
GAN900But it'd be nice to see a hardware platform that has features that aren't driven my Nokia's marketing and market research temas06:38
WormFoodI know updating the firmware won't help, but I'll try it anyways.06:38
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GAN900But sans the naivety of OpenPandora06:40
DocScrutinizerthere won't be any OM hw platform that comes any way near what N900 is right now06:40
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DocScrutinizerand tbh OpenPandora isn't really that much more naive than my company was, at least to me it seems so06:41
GAN900I'm just tired of Nokia making these things less and less appealing to me with each generation.06:43
DocScrutinizerGAN900: you might want to follow on what qi-hardware is doing06:43
GAN900If only everything else weren't A. Crap or B. Proprietary crap.06:44
DocScrutinizerGAN900:  http://www.nanonote.cc06:44
dotblankanyone have a pandora?06:45
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: Ben is A. Crap06:46
WormFoodyep, just as I expected....reflashing it does not help :(06:46
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DocScrutinizerWormFood: you got URL to schem? Maybe erratic behaviour is due to flat backup battery?06:50
WormFoodhold on a sec DocScrutinizer, and I'll see if I can find them again. I don't think there is a backup battery in it.06:51
DocScrutinizerWormFood: (I never owned a N800, so no schematics here fot that device)06:51
DocScrutinizerWormFood: It doesn't have a RTC?? o.O06:51
WormFoodyeah, but I don't think it has a backup battery06:52
DocScrutinizerWormFood: usually you got a bupbat to keep RTC running, and also to make states of PMU statemachine persistent06:52
dotblank222.2 mb for wesnoth is insane06:52
WormFoodN770, N800 and N810 schematics there06:53
WormFoodand service manuals for N800 and N81006:53
DocScrutinizerWormFood: If butbat is flat, then PMU statemachine will enter reset state oninserting main battery06:53
WormFoodif it uses anything, it is probably a supercap06:54
WormFoodinterestingly, now it seems to power off with the power button, but not power on06:54
GAN900There is a backup battery.06:56
WormFoodwhere it is GAN900?06:56
WormFoodif there is one, then it is not user accessible06:56
GAN900You'll have to take it apart, I believe.06:57
GAN900Which isn't too hard on the N800.06:57
WormFoodI did take it apart. If there is a battery, it is not a normal formfactor06:57
DocScrutinizerWormFood: Vback, page2, directly under xtal and (5)06:59
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WormFoodthen it is a supercap07:00
WormFoodoh, no07:00
WormFoodyou're right07:00
WormFoodI see it on the schematics now07:00
WormFoodat first glance it looked like a cap, but I see it is a single cell battery07:01
WormFoodbut where it is physically?07:03
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DocScrutinizereasy to spot, it's always a silver button07:05
DocScrutinizerrather large07:05
WormFoodlook at the picture on page 807:06
DocScrutinizerusually at a PCB edge07:06
WormFoodyeah, I know what it usually looks like, and where it usually is....but I don't see it.07:06
DocScrutinizernext to USB07:06
DocScrutinizerleft side07:07
DocScrutinizerhmm, <30s to spot it. Not bad :-P07:08
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WormFoodyou're right, that does look like the battery07:11
WormFoodthe tab on it threw me off....I was looking for something round :P07:12
WormFoodand it does appear to be corroded too....I wonder where I can find a replacement for it07:12
WormFoodI have to go to 华强北 (hua qiang bei) tomorrow...I'm 99.9% sure I can find one there with enough leg work07:13
WormFoodnow I need to buy a decent temp control solder iron, or pay someone a few bucks to replace it for is so close to the sd card slot, I'd rather do it myself.07:14
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WormFoodis that the part number of the battery, or the nokia N800 part number?07:14
DocScrutinizerNokia part #07:14
WormFoodthat is what I figured....but I need the normal part number to find a replacement.07:15
WormFoodI hate to bring my N800 with me, but it shouldn't be too hard to do07:15
WormFoodI wonder why the schematics shows it as a single cell (looking like a cap), when it must be at least a double cell (because of the voltage)07:15
DocScrutinizeras usual, Nokia doesn't see any need for real partnames in their schematics >:-( it's named '2.8/3.3V'07:16
DocScrutinizerit's a LiIon cell, and that's a single cell special backup chemistry07:17
DocScrutinizerso -> 2.8/3.3V07:17
DocScrutinizerit's quite standard07:17
WormFoodlooks like 2.6/3.3 to me, but those schematics are not clear07:18
DocScrutinizerok, 2.6 maybe07:18
WormFoodI was thinking even the button cells (3v) are double cell07:18
DocScrutinizerthat's such a blurry crap, my tired eyeballs fail to see07:18
WormFoodyeah, it is tiring on my eyeballs too07:18
WormFoodand page 5 really fucks with me.07:19
WormFoodI'm 1/2 tempted to go to 华强北 today, and find it, but I need to pick up a laptop tomorrow to get a new motherboard for too07:19
DocScrutinizeryeah, that's real crap07:19
WormFoodvery frustrating07:19
WormFoodI scanned in the schematics for one of my ham radios (very old, like late 1970s model), and I went out of my way to make sure I got the best scan I could, so I could share it with others07:20
DocScrutinizerjust use a CR1505 or whatever, and solder a spring so you can clip it in07:20
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WormFoodthere isn't enough room07:20
WormFoodI know, it looks like there is, but the case (which they don't show) does not have enough space in that area07:21
DocScrutinizerhmm, I got a 5 dozen bupbat here, but presumably all are dead meanwhile07:21
DocScrutinizerfor OM GTA0107:21
DocScrutinizerlooks identical07:21
WormFoodmaybe it does have enough space...kinda hard to see07:21
WormFoodever heard of "hua qiang bei"?07:21
WormFoodit is a location07:22
WormFoodshenzhen, china07:22
DocScrutinizernever been in Shenzen07:22
WormFoodI've been living here for almost 2 1/2'd love it07:22
luke-jrI can't imagine I would tolerate going to China for any reason07:22
WormFoodthat area is jam packed with computers and electronics07:22
DocScrutinizerbeen in Taipei. There's also a nice district for electronics07:22
WormFoodthe place I will go is 3 or 4 buildings, called 华强电子世界 (hua qiang electronics world)....they literally have everything07:23
luke-jrWormFood: gears?07:24
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WormFoodsure, for electronics type CD players and VCRs07:24
luke-jrgears are gears07:24
luke-jrhow about for pendulums?07:24
luke-jrpendulums are cool07:24
WormFoodnow I need to learn the word in mandarin for "battery"07:24
luke-jrWormFood: 'hoike'07:25
* RST38h moos07:25
luke-jrnot sure the written character07:25
DocScrutinizeryay. Thank God in TPE everybody knows English07:25
WormFoodwhy thank god for that? :P07:25
RST38hLarge, sharpened pendulums, yesss07:25
WormFoodno luke-jr, that is not mandarin07:25
luke-jrWormFood: aww, you figured me out too easily!07:25
WormFoodit should start with 电07:26
luke-jrI admit, I made it up on the spot07:26
WormFoodit looks like it07:26
WormFoodif you said "dian____" I'd probably believe you07:26
DocScrutinizerWormFood: as otherwise I still would try to find the things I had to buy there, or find my way out of the district07:26
WormFoodI usually don't have too much problem, even tho my mandarin skills are minimal07:26
WormFoodI can ask for the price, and I understand numbers, and I can ask for a receipt07:27
luke-jrbut do you understand TONAL numbers???07:27
RST38hluke: The ones produced by a phone? =)07:28
WormFoodI got a WRT54GS V1 router here, with 8m flash, and 32m ram....and the ram went bad....I was able to buy new RAM chips for 8 RMB (about $1.15 USD) each....then paid someone 20 RMB (about $3 USD) to replace them for me.....07:28
luke-jr... no07:28
WormFoodthose are dual tonal number07:28
WormFoodDTMF = Dual Tone Multi-Frequency ;)07:28
luke-jryou both fail07:28
WormFoodluke-jr, what are you talking about07:28
luke-jrtonal as in the number ton07:28
luke-jras oppposed to decimal07:28
DocScrutinizerno that's tonage07:29
WormFoodDocScrutinizer, thanks a lot for your help finding that battery. I was looking for the wrong have sharp, experienced eyes07:29
WormFoodwrong thing*07:29
DocScrutinizeryou're welcome07:29
WormFoodThis is a little outside of my area of expertise. I don't have to deal with these types of batteries too much....I was expecting something bigger, and more rounded07:29
WormFoodI used to repair 2-way radios years ago....I was very good with that stuff.07:30
WormFoodluke-jr, nobody uses that in the real world07:30
luke-jrWormFood: I do!07:31
WormFoodfor dealing with what?07:31
RST38hluke-jr is an open source fanatic, WormFood, he uses weird things07:31
luke-jrRST38h: free software, not open source!07:31
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RST38hprobably uses Linux too07:32
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DocScrutinizertanal system07:32
DocScrutinizermix of total and...07:32
DocScrutinizerinvented by somebody who *really* got bored07:32
DocScrutinizerafter he had finished learnng inuktitut and cherokee07:32
luke-jrJohn Nystrom was a famous engineer!07:32
* ShadowJK would have assumed teh backup battery is a Lithium battery without the -Ion07:32
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WormFoodBattery is 电池 Diànchí07:36
WormFoodweird....the 2nd character means "pond"....literally "electric pond" (sorta makes sense in a chinese way)07:37
luke-jrmakes sense in an English way too IMO07:38
zashHah, cool07:39
luke-jrpool of electricity07:39
asjI wonder if resevoir might be a better translation?07:40
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: maybe - I'm not familiar with the exact type of cell chemistry they use for those exotic critters07:42
WormFoodactually, google translate says "pond, reservoir, stall" dictionary also says "pool"07:42
WormFoodbut many times a reservoir is a pond/ asj, you're right I thinks07:43
WormFoodif you say the tones wrong, it could come out as "electric eats/food"07:43
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Izzehanyone here got PS3 controller working and know how to connect it without keymaps?07:46
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DocScrutinizeryummy, need to get my 5kWh electric breakfast :-P07:52
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RST38hShadowJK: - the PC backup battery is shown on top07:55
RST38hWorks pretty much the same as a standard watch battery, but produces twice the voltage07:56
DocScrutinizerthese are primary cells07:56
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RST38h"Unused lithium batteries provide a convenient source of lithium metal for use as a reducing agent in methamphetamine labs. Some jurisdictions have passed laws to restrict lithium battery sales..."08:00
LiraNunaanyone care to test my new tech demo?
LiraNunaneed internet connection and it will create a directory called 'cache'08:02
LiraNunaif anyone can tell me why the touch screen is so slow (drawing speeds are awesome) will be much appriciated08:02
RST38hdoing a lot of data exchange with the mmc?08:03
LiraNunaif any of you are concerned about malicious code, n900-google-maps08:03
LiraNunaRST38h, nope, just drawing and reading touchscreen08:04
LiraNunadata is in GPU08:04
LiraNunadrawing speed seems fast, I believe the touchscreen is having hard time catching up08:05
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RST38hwhere is the cache/ ?08:06
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LiraNunait'll create it in the same dir it's on08:07
LiraNunaassuming you have write access08:07
RST38h"The rankings in the books category of the US iTunes store features 40 out of 50 apps by the same app developer, Thuat Nguyen. What's more concerning is that it seems individuals' iTunes accounts have been hacked to make mass purchases of that one developer's apps."08:11
RST38hLovely, lovely08:11
LiraNunaRST38h, any clue on the touchscreen issue?08:11
* RST38h bets the "developer" has "borrowed" his books from the Gutenberg project08:11
RST38hLiraNuna: my guess is that you are running it off mmc08:12
LiraNunait doesn't do any file system I/O08:12
RST38hLiraNuna: or it is allocating huge blocks of memory causing swapping to the mmc08:12
RST38hok, can I see your event loop?08:12
LiraNunahandled by Qt08:12
RST38hCould you show the even loop at your side?08:13
Milo- ::paintGL() ?08:13
LiraNunanot mcuh to it08:13
RST38hLiraNuna: measure time your paintGL() takes08:14
LiraNunaon it08:14
RST38hby inserting gettimeofday()08:14
Milo-or by using qtestlib and place all of the code inside "QBENCHMARK { }" -block08:15
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LiraNunalibQtTest is not available on the N900?08:20
Milo-oh yeah08:20
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asjit's probably just not packaged by default08:22
LiraNuna/home/user/n900-google-maps: error while loading shared libraries: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory08:22
RST38hLiraNuna: gettimeofday().08:23
Milo-gettimeofday gives better performance anyways08:23
RST38hLiraNuna: Forget the funny Qt crap.08:23
Milo-using qtestlib is just the cute way of doing it08:24
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zashHow is facebook info stored in the addr-book?08:26
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LiraNunathe speed veries08:29
LiraNunaam I doing it right?08:30
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ljsdofuynsdfufuhis there a way to tell your SIP phone number from the client?08:31
ljsdofuynsdfufuhnot that I can't look it up with the provider,  but I'd be surprised if it can't be seen08:32
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luke-jroh: there is no inherent correlation between dialed extensions and SIP accounts08:33
luke-jrso your "phone number" could be different for every call08:33
luke-jrtherefore, it is impossible for N900 to tell you that information08:33
RST38hliranuna: no08:33
RST38hliranuna: you have to account the usec difference as well08:33
LiraNunaI never used gettimeofday for benchmark08:34
RST38hliranuna: and you probably also want to print the time that passes between paintGL() calls, to see how long painting takes relative to the rest08:34
RST38hgettimeofday is not a benchmark, it simply reads system clock08:34
slonopotamusluke-jr: calling via xmpp at 3am is a bad habit08:34
LiraNunaI understand08:34
RST38hAll right, time to go to work08:35
slonopotamus(leaving sound enabled too)08:35
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LiraNunathis confirms what I thought09:01
LiraNunatouchscreen polling is slow09:01
asjdo you really have to poll the screen?09:03
asjor if you have to, can you push it off into a thread09:03
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LiraNunaasj, where's the 'development' forums?09:10
LiraNunaoh nv09:10
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fralsbaaah neeed coffeeeeee09:39
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zashfrals: do make -C kitchen coffee09:40
keriowatch out if you use optimizations09:41
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D-Iivil_WorkGood morning!09:46
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D-Iivil_WorkGreat... boss is on vacation and he left a "small" to-do list on my desk. First task: rip and convert these 32 DVDs to proper format. Deadline: today10:22
psycho_oreosask him for a raise when he comes back ;)10:23
D-Iivil_WorkI wish I had more than seven hours to complete the task... or if the material were already at least in any_other_format than DVD. Takes ages to rip that pile :D10:23
* D-Iivil_Work gets some coffee before doing anything10:23
psycho_oreosnot if you have those automated robotic arms that would automate the tasks more10:23
D-Iivil_Workpsycho_oreos, luckily I have three _powerfull_ machines to do this job with, but still.10:24
psycho_oreosones that push the drive door so that it opens, and an arm to grab the disc, put it onto a spindle and grab another one from the other spindle, put it into the drive and make the door close10:24
D-Iivil_WorkHeh :P10:24
psycho_oreoslol you need those robotic arms, they ease off the work very easily10:24
psycho_oreosI don't know what they're called, but they're part of the professional copy/remastering tools10:25
keriopsycho_oreos: don't you have 32 drives?10:25
psycho_oreosrip them on one machine and farm off the work on the other machines so it'll convert in no time10:26
psycho_oreoskerio, 32 virtual drives, yes :)10:26
keriothose are the best kind of drives!10:26
kerionot sure if they'll help you though10:26
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psycho_oreosthey won't help D-Iivil_Work's case :) but like I said, one of those robotic thingys.. I'll google for it10:26
D-Iivil_WorkOh great. Just great. The contents of the DVD's are in one goddamn mpeg2 -file. That means I have to manually split the contents into separate files also. Fuck fuck fuck.10:27
ohI should change my name from 'oh'10:27
kerioat least you don't have to rip them10:28
keriodo you?10:28
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D-Iivil_Workkerio, sure I do.10:28
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kerioD-Iivil_Work: oh, an unsplit video dvd?10:28
D-Iivil_WorkThe case is: I have a pile of music videos delivered on 32 DVDs. Each DVD has ~20 videos or more. And at least three first discs are authorized in the way that every video is bounced into same goddamn file.10:28
keriothat... makes no sense10:29
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D-Iivil_Workkerio, well.. never ever underestimate the stupidity of a client who wants his material distributed and has no knowledge on computers or anything.10:29
keriotell your boss you couldn't do it10:30
keriobecause of...10:30
kerioincompatible bit-registration operators10:30
D-Iivil_Workkerio, the client made a "custom" dvd's where he delivers the stuff.10:30
fralstimeless_mbp: ping10:30
keriopsycho_oreos: that's awesome10:30
D-Iivil_WorkWell, the deadline is impossible :D10:30
D-Iivil_WorkSo I might just take a first break right now and think this through...10:31
fralstimeless_mbp: did you setup mxr for meego?10:32
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timeless_mbppart way10:32
timeless_mbpthe index is still not glued together10:32
* timeless_mbp should glue it10:32
timeless_mbp(and it isn't cron'd to update)10:33
fralsalright, cheers10:33
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timeless_mbp-rw-rw-r-- 1 timeless timeless 1.6G Feb 20 20:46
timeless_mbpscary, isn't it?10:35
keriowhat's that?10:36
timeless_mbpthe database behind a cross reference10:36
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kerioi have video files bigger than that10:37
timeless_mbp-rw-rw-r--+ 1 timeless pg922508 1.1G 2009-11-20 02:25 fremantle-20091116/xref10:37
timeless_mbpyeah, but video files are supposed to be big10:37
timeless_mbpcross references are usually not very big10:37
keriowell, it depends on what they're cross-referencing10:38
timeless_mbp-rw-r--r-- 1 timeless timeless 66M Jul  5 03:48 /data/mxr-data/mozilla-central/xref10:38
timeless_mbpthat's a typical cross reference database10:38
timeless_mbpthe fremantle/moblin databases are … a tad bigger10:38
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* timeless_mbp tries to remember where the pieces for the meego db live10:39
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timeless_mbpis my estimated size for the meego db10:40
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timeless_mbp(that's assuming one can sum databases to get a useful result)10:40
timeless_mbpjust the corresponding filedatabase for meego is bigger than mozilla-central's identifier database :o10:41
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D-Iivil_WorkX-Fade, ping10:54
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D-Iivil_Work~seen X-Fade10:56
infobotx-fade is currently on #maemo #meego, last said: 'Sure, let's see.'.10:56
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D-Iivil_WorkSince X-Fade is somewhere away from keyboard, is there someone else who knows about repos?11:03
nidOdepends what you ned to know about em?11:03
D-Iivil_WorkWell, two guestions: why I can't see promote to extras link here:
D-Iivil_WorkPackage has 25 + votes and the three days quarantee has passed a while ago.11:04
nidOquarantine is 10 days11:04
nidOunless that's been altered recently11:04
D-Iivil_WorkAnd secondly, why is the package description being overwritten by devel-version of the package (???)11:04
D-Iivil_WorknidO, ok. That explains it. I recalled it was three days.11:05
D-Iivil_WorkThe description is overwritten also for the extras-version of the package (it shows the description of the devel-version when browsin
nidOprobably a package interface bug, that one will have to be taken up with x-fade11:06
nidOhave you checked whether the description's also wrong when you view the package in ham?11:07
D-Iivil_WorknidO, pretty annoying bug since the extras version shows now completely wrong information on the description and is confusing the users (I'm gettin email from users that are asking where the hell is the features that are mentioned in the description) :-D11:07
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D-Iivil_WorknidO, will check that. Have to uninstall the package and disable devel first... plaah :D11:08
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Venemogood morning11:24
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crashanddiethe TMO hamster is having a hard time with all the reporting, apparentluy12:10
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timeless_mbp(Pass 4) identifier 2763600 [kernel-2.6.33] of 419 / 963 files...12:15
* timeless_mbp should change 'files' to 'databases'12:15
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Venemois there anyone here who is affiliated with the Hildon Extras project?12:18
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thpJaffa: Reginald Stadlbauer != Founder of ITT ;) reggie's profile is at
thpJaffa: maybe you or someone else can change this link + name on the current issue12:27
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crashanddiechem|st: you could've at least waited until i got a few thanks for the mobile internet thread :(12:34
crashanddiechem|st: err, VoIP/mobile calls thread... Why did you move it back to OT?12:35
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MohammadAGX-Fade, ping :/12:44
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D-Iivil_WorkMohammadAG, _o/13:08
MohammadAGo hai13:08
FIQmy battery has started to say it's low when it's not13:10
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FIQi take off the back, and it doesn't sit in the battery-area at all13:11
FIQ(it goes off almost just when holding it upside-down13:11
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dotblankSo I saw the thread about using your own voice for a navigation app13:12
dotblankthen I couldn't help but think what if morgan freeman did this13:13
dotblankso on a whim I did a google search13:13
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keriodotblank: with what? ovi maps?13:14
kerioi thought it didn't support voice instructions13:14
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kakashi_I actually flashed my n900 yesterday and now it is not detecting the Sim Card13:18
kakashi_what might be the problem?13:18
kakashi_any idea?13:18
kakashi_or is it harware related?13:18
nidOdid you flash to an older firmware?13:18
kakashi_I tried all13:18
kakashi_I flashed it into the latest one13:19
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kakashi_as well as the older one13:19
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kakashi_but it doesn't seem to recognize the sim card13:19
mikki-kunkakashi_: maybe the sim-contacts are a lil oxidised or something... you tried putting it in several times?13:19
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kakashi_mikki-kun, yes, I did try putting it lots of times13:19
kakashi_what should I use to clean the surface of the sim-contacts?13:20
timeless_mbpdotblank: awesome youtube link :)13:20
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mikki-kunhm... maybe trying the sim in another phone and another sim in the n900 could be 'helpful' in determining where the problem could be13:20
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timeless_mbpkakashi_: did you try a different phone?13:21
kakashi_yes, the sim works on the other phone13:21
kakashi_and it used to work till yesterday on n90013:21
PupnikE71e71 is more readable in sunlight for some reasonn .. Transflective contrast seems higher than n90013:21
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kakashi_any ideas ? is it a firmware error?13:24
timeless_mbpi'd assume it's the contacts...13:24
kakashi_what is the right way of flashing ? eMMC and then rootfs or rootfs and eMMC, I am not rebooting in the middle, so I thought both are the same13:24
MohammadAGsame if you don't reboot in between13:25
MohammadAGpreferably eMMC then rootfs13:25
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kakashi_hmm... anyways, is there something that I can use to clean the contacts myself?13:26
timeless_mbpthe n900 comes w/ a user guide13:26
kakashi_I used the tissue paper till now13:26
timeless_mbpyou could check to see if this is covered...13:26
kakashi_it does?13:27
kakashi_I mean I got the n900 w/o user guide13:27
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D-Iivil_WorkIs there a "softer" way to reload hildon-home than just doing "killall hildon-home"?13:28
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D-Iivil_WorkBecause the default theme selector does that but I cannot figure out how it does it.13:28
D-Iivil_Work(killing hildon-home causes python widgets to disappear and they have to be manually re-added)13:28
timeless_mbpkakashi_: it's electronic13:29
timeless_mbpopen file manager13:29
timeless_mbpit should be in documents > user guide or something13:29
kerioD-Iivil_Work: probably some dbus message?13:30
timeless_mbpthere's also a tiny pamphlet that comes w/ the n90013:30
timeless_mbpnot sure what's in it13:30
timeless_mbpbut since you own your n900, you should consider checking them before you attack it :)13:30
D-Iivil_Workkerio, I was thinking that too. Is there a way to monitor the dbus and find out what the theme selector does when changing theme?13:30
kakashi_I am right now on linux, I tried using PC-Suit on windows 7 and it was not able to detect n900 through PC Mode13:30
timeless_mbpD-Iivil_Work: dbus-monitor is easy...13:30
jogauser guides? meh :)13:30
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keriojust ask here your dumb questions13:31
kerioeventually, someone will answer13:31
D-Iivil_Worktimeless_mbp, guidance would be highly appreciated  ;)13:31
timeless_mbpD-Iivil_Work: lmgtfy.com13:31
jogamost user guides don't answer dumb questions anyway13:31
D-Iivil_Worktimeless_mbp, yeah.13:31
kerioD-Iivil_Work: dbus-monitor > log13:32
keriothen just do it13:32
keriothen open the log and see what's the message13:32
timeless_mbptechnically there are two main buses, the system one and the user one13:32
timeless_mbpbut i'd hope you only care about the default bus13:32
keriotimeless_mbp: worst case scenario, he can just run it as root and catch everything13:32
kerio(that does catch everything, doesn't it?13:32
timeless_mbpi don't think so13:32
keriogaah mismatched parenthesis)13:32
timeless_mbpi think the buses are distinct by name, not by owner13:33
timeless_mbpwell, they might be distinct by user too, but...13:33
* timeless_mbp ponders13:33
* timeless_mbp shrugs13:33
timeless_mbpmaybe you have to be root to monitor the system bus13:33
timeless_mbpbut yeah, sudo su isn't that hard :)13:33
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D-Iivil_Worktimeless_mbp, heh, I was using wrong search terms:
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D-Iivil_Worktimeless_mbp, thanks :)13:34
* timeless_mbp sighs13:36
timeless_mbpMem:   1740944k total,  1722920k used,    18024k free,    38432k buffers13:36
chem|stcrashanddie: is it about maemo or NITs or
timeless_mbp17291 timeless  18   0 88076  83m 2380 D 10.4  4.9  16:22.06 perl13:36
* timeless_mbp is probably running out of memory13:36
chem|stcrashanddie: or corresponding?13:36
crashanddiechem|st: it's about VoIP, which is still one of the main usages of the NITs13:37
infobotcrashanddie meant: chem|st: it's about VoIP, which is still one of the main us of the NITs13:37
D-Iivil_WorkNoup.. nothing intresting in dbus -log regarding theme changing :-/13:38
chem|stwell voip is one of the uses... but thats about voip plans and off-topic is not rant or useless it is just not on topic13:38
crashanddiechem|st: I just figure if we allow threads about Nokia's financial numbers in General, we might also leave informative posts about VoIPs13:38
chem|stthere is a serious missunderstanding in off-topic afait13:38
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crashanddieWell, I would like to see a garbage section13:40
crashanddieso that off topic can be useful13:40
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crashanddiebecause at the moment, having off topic not show up in the active threads, and not being able to thank means that you're wasting time trying to be helpful13:41
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chem|stcrashanddie: thats my point, lots of off-topic is garbage and not even worth off-topic13:42
chem|stbut off-topic is most of the time answered somewhere else in www so it is ok with me to have no postcount or thanks for that as lmgtfy would bring the same answers13:43
crashanddieonly because we're breeding that13:44
crashanddieas much as general, n900 and maemo 5 forums are also 90% LMGTFY-worthy13:45
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crashanddieheh, finally had a slashdot post that had the nice "Read the rest of this comment" link13:52
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kakashi_I don't get this! heh! till now I had problems with the sim card detection on my n900, I kept flashing and finally when I flashed with RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.19-1.004_PR_COMBINED_004_ARM.bin it detects the simcard13:56
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kakashi_how is this possible13:56
MohammadAGcoincidence possibly13:57
MohammadAGmy SIM card's contacts are fu**ed up, I just have a 1mm paper on the sim top13:57
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MohammadAGget a sim card replacement13:59
MohammadAGyou didn't really have to flash it13:59
kakashi_weird, I tried the older versions of the rootfs images and I couldn't connect to PC-Suite13:59
kakashi_though, I use linux mostly on my system, I installed windows 7 for PC-Suite and that too was a fail :-|14:00
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kakashi_let me again revert to windows 7 and check if the PC-Suite functionality works14:01
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MohammadAGdamn it's quiet in here today14:13
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lcukMohammadAG, monday morning14:13
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mikki-kun*playing his music louder*14:14
mikki-kunbetter? ;)14:14
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fralsMohammadAG: its july, half the world is on vacation!14:15
MohammadAGI thought #maemo is from the other half14:15
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lcukmikki-kun, what are you listening to?14:16
lcukand is it alterego whos made music choice over IM - it needs irc ;)14:17
mikki-kunfrals: does that stop people from going online with their n900s via 3g? ;)14:17
mikki-kunSamsas Traum - DerDieDas \ Weena Morloch14:17
fralsmikki-kun: depending on location, yes most likely ;-)14:17
mikki-kunlcuk: i have also other stuff here lying around...14:19
lcukthats ok, you can keep it over there14:19
mikki-kunyou know it?14:19
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mikki-kuni mean "do you know samsas traum?" ^^''' damn, that was really bad engrish from me14:21
fralsbah charging this logitech wireless mouse while using it was a bad idea14:21
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MohammadAGfrals, mice? pfft, use trouts14:22
chem|stcrashanddie: as I said... I move 20+ threads each time I open tmo, I guess inbetween there are 25+ more which are in the wrong place, do the math...14:23
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* D-Iivil_Work bangs his head against the wall14:29
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mikki-kunD-Iivil_Work: take some ibuprofen afterwards, kills the headache14:31
D-Iivil_Workmikki-kun, I think only thing that's gonna help is a 9mm ibuprofen made of metal14:31
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mikki-kunhave fun chewing on that one... gives you toothache as well =p14:32
D-Iivil_Workmikki-kun, I wasn't gonna take that myself. I'll pass it to one of our customers...14:32
mikki-kunahhhh, what's he asking special for? new physicsengine in RL?14:33
mikki-kunor better, a windows which doesn't crash? :D14:33
D-Iivil_Workmikki-kun, noup... just fails on delivering the material in any human readable format and making us (=me) doing plenty of unnecessary job.14:34
mikki-kunhm, those people generally are annoying like hell14:36
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mikki-kunmahhh, that's as well annoying as hell -.- stupid servers seems to be down -.-14:39
D-Iivil_Workmikki-kun, so you can put your legs on the table and grab a coffee since you cannot do anything while servers are down? ;)14:40
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mikki-kuntrying again, maybe the server lost my session14:40
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mikki-kunthat is just so not cool :( i need to search for a room and the server of the site which lists them isn't playing fair... :(14:42
kwtmHi. Need some advice on "extras-devel" and how to stay safe.14:42
mikki-kunkwtm: hm, what kind of advice are you specifically looking for?14:42
kwtmIf there is a package on "extras-devel" which is known to be safe (or which I trust), then do I understand correctly that I can enable extras-devel, install the package, and then disable extras-devel again?14:43
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kwtmThat is, the danger of extras-devel is that I try to do updates with that repository enabled, and Maemo thinks there are cool updates to my existing packages which are in fact not-quite-tested buggy replacements for the stable versions, correct?14:43
kwtmIf I do not update while extras-devel is enabled, I stay safe?14:43
kwtm(I am asking because I really REALLY want to install mc 'midnight commander' while avoiding a crash)14:44
mikki-kunhm, though installing a package maybe relies on dependancies which are marked as instable and are therefore updated...14:44
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MohammadAGInstall it, it's safe14:44
kwtmMohammadAG: Thanks for the vote of confidence.  But... I can't find mc on extras-devel.  Did it get promoted to extras-testing?14:44
mikki-kunbut generally extras-devel is pretty "stable"14:45
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kwtmmikki-kun: Good point.  I guess I should look at the dependencies...14:45
MohammadAGeven if I promoted it, it'd stay in -devel14:45
lcukkwtm, its in devel for a reason, if you think its safe after your testing then please contact the developer so it can be poshed further towards main extras14:45
mikki-kuni have it enabled per default so in case i see some really nasty bugs i can report that14:45
lcukso others dont have to have this discussion14:45
MohammadAGlcuk, it's in devel cause I cba to push it into testing14:46
MohammadAGlame reason, I know, but the QA is a pita tbh14:46
kwtmlcuk: Well, I don't think I have enough to make any difference, but it sounds like from MohammadAG that some packages are quite stable but would stay in devel --is that what you meant, MohammadAG?14:46
lcukMohammadAG, \@14:46
kwtmAh, I see.14:46
lcukMohammadAG, push through the pain barrier and try14:46
* lcuk will also try soon too :)14:47
lcuktho i have NFI how to optify liqbase ;)14:47
kwtmMeanwhile, a more newbie-ish question --having enabled extras-devel (by accident, actually), I see lots of juicy apps listed in App Manager --but can I read more details in a web page, the way I can see the extras apps in ""?14:47
* lcuk smiles cos liqbase should run happily on n81014:47
MohammadAGlcuk, no f'ing idea? :P14:48
kwtmFor example, MohammadAG you just gave me the web page for mc --how did you find it?  How can I find the web page for the other apps?14:48
MohammadAGlcuk, call maemo-optify in debian/rules14:48
lcukMohammadAG, no its actually something maemo-optify-boottime could deal with but im just adding the one folder to /opt :)14:48
lcuk/usr/share/liqbase will go into opt14:48
lcukand everything under liqbase should then be nicely optified14:49
* lcuk does have a plan for it 14:49
MohammadAGmaemo-optify would've been easier14:49
lcuknot really14:49
kwtmlcuk: Thank you.  Will be useful.14:49
lcukbecause thats app level14:49
lcukand i have many apps14:49
lcukand its just a brainfart14:49
MohammadAGoh, right14:49
MohammadAGI forgot14:49
* MohammadAG nods14:49
kwtmOne other app I'd like your opinion on whether it's stable, and I14:49
lcukdo it once, and its solved14:49
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D-Iivil_WorkPIZZA TIME!14:49
kwtmOne other app I'd like your opinion on whether it's stable, and I'll be happy: is PyQt for Maemo ok to install?14:50
lcukkwtm, people do not usually install pyqt on its own :p14:50
lcukbut theres many apps using it14:50
lcukhealthcheck is one such app14:50
lcukwhich also serves as a nice python/qt example of how to read system information14:51
kwtmlcuk: Well, I'm hoping to write some quick & dirty apps with it just for myself.  Is that the wrong package?14:51
MohammadAGhealthcheck has more comments than the IRC log for yesterday14:51
kwtmI learned Python but not PyGTK --I'd rather invest my time in learning Qt if I can.14:51
lcukkwtm, sure have a play if you feel comfy there14:51
lcuknothing blocking you byeond the usual "im a developer let me at -devel stuff"14:52
lcukso fight the grue, file bugs and patches if things are noticed and have fun14:52
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kwtmMohammadAG: Thank you for maintaining MC for Maemo.  It still doesn't show up on App Manager or "View All Packages" (ie.  Can I download the package directly from the mc web page you gave?14:53
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kwtmCan I do something like "sudo dpkg -i mc-armel-whateverfilename"?14:53
MohammadAGyes, but you'll need to sort out deps on your own14:53
MohammadAGsudo apt-get install mc <-- much easier14:53
JaffaMorning, all14:53
MohammadAGmorning Jaffa14:53
Jaffathp: Ah, yes - that happened before14:53
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kwtmMohammadAG: apt-get install will sort out deps?  How come it's not in the repository any more?  I read some forum comments and some people were saying that mc was there but no longer?  Anyway, will try now on my n90014:54
Jaffathp: Fixed14:54
MohammadAGit is there, I'm sure of that14:54
MohammadAGanyways, uploading new version to push it into -testing14:54
MohammadAGlcuk, happy?14:54
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lcukthanks MohammadAG, of course im happy!14:55
kwtmAww, *CRUMM*, I'm not putting in the right sudo password.14:55
kwtmIf I installed OpenSSH server and set the root password, that's the password I should use to sudo, right?14:56
lcukthis is a file select dooferbob, its been automagically used in landscape and portrait, does it look usable still in portrait mode14:56
lcukkwtm, no14:56
lcukopenssh is not sudo14:56
MohammadAGdoes sudo even work without tweaking it?14:56
lcuk:) to login as root on your tablet if you havent installed rootsh14:56
lcukssh root@localhost14:57
* MohammadAG uses localhost for scp14:57
MohammadAGprogress bars ftw14:57
kwtmOh, wait, you're right --if "user" does sudo, then it's "user"14:57
kwtmOh, wait, you're right --if "user" does sudo, then it's "user"'s password that I have to type.14:57
Venemohi guys14:57
kwtm(Sorry, I keep hitting <Enter> instead of apostrophe.)  But how do I know what user's password is?  I never set one.14:58
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MohammadAGno one knows it14:58
D-Iivil_WorkJohn Nokia knows it for sure!14:58
kwtmSo I have to ssh root@localhost, change user's password, and then put that password in?14:58
D-Iivil_WorkOr Chuck Norris14:58
Venemoif I create a .c file in which I have #include <hildon/hildon.h> (and nothing else), it gives me 4 errors about HildonUIMode and HildonGtkInputMode not being declared14:58
MohammadAGor just run it as root14:58
Venemodoes anyone have an idea about what I'm doing wrong?14:59
kwtmMohammadAG: Run as root --true.  Will try to stay with sudo since my Kubuntu uses that, which will make porting my scripts easier.14:59
D-Iivil_Workkwtm, I guess you need to add sudoers for your scripts to be able to use sudo -command before scripts.14:59
D-Iivil_Work(that's what I was told to do=15:00
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kwtmD-Iivil_Work: Does that mean I add "user" to the group "admin"/"sudoers"/something?  Or is "sudoers" a command I need to run?15:02
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D-Iivil_Workkwtm, hold on15:02
kwtmholding on now ... since I seem to have forgotten my root password as well. :P  Looking it up...15:03
D-Iivil_Workkwtm, you need to place a asdflkjasdf.sudoers -file under /etc/sudoers.d15:03
D-Iivil_WorkAnd that asdfjkl.sudoers -file must include this: user ALL = NOPASSWD: /path/to/yoursrcipt15:04
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D-Iivil_Workkwtm, and then run "update-sudoers" -command in xterm with root priviledges15:04
D-Iivil_WorkAfter that you can run your script with sudo -command15:04
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kwtmD-Iivil_Work: Thank you for all that info.15:06
MohammadAGD-Iivil_Work, he's not using a script15:06
D-Iivil_WorkMohammadAG, okay.15:06
D-Iivil_Workkwtm, then forget everything I just said :D15:06
MohammadAGadding a lot of stuff to sudoers is a bit of a security risk15:06
D-Iivil_WorkMohammadAG, he was talking about testing his scripts so I assumed it's script we're talking about :-(15:07
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* D-Iivil_Work wipes the sweat from his forehead. 24 DVDs ripped, splitted and converted, eight to go.15:08
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norayrhello people15:11
kwtmHi.  I think I'm back --laptop's battery decided go to from 19% to 5% in 30 seconds and the computer shut down on me.15:11
norayrprobably you know about kernel rotatoin support described here
kwtmAnyway, D-Iivil_Work: I *am* putting this in a script, so your info is useful.  (I've decided to put everything in a script so I can easily reproduce the work when my n900 crashes again.)15:12
norayrso, installation described by reflashing the device.15:12
D-Iivil_Workkwtm, thank MohammadAG since he just guided me how to do the sudoers stuff. I15:12
norayri have problem with it as I use copied maemo on another partiotion15:12
norayrand never use the one which is on JFFS15:13
norayrand so15:13
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norayrso i wonder15:13
norayranyone heard of an option15:13
kwtmThanks, MohammadAG.  And now a sort of dumb question.  For some reason it's not taking the root password that I put in when I installed OpenSSH Client+Server.  Can I reset the password by uninstalling, then reinstalling OpenSSH Client+Server?15:13
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norayrhowto install rotation kernel module15:13
norayrwithout it15:13
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MohammadAGkwtm, install rootsh, purge openssh-server then reinstall it15:14
norayri mean without reflashing. is it possible to recompile kernel myself? or just get kernel headers and compile the module against them?15:14
kwtmMohammadAG: Was just about to ask if rootsh was a better option.  Ok, will do so now.15:14
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* kwtm spent the last 5 minutes scrolling through the apps list to get to R (for "rootsh") and has a sore thumb.15:16
zashkwtm: did you try pressing the R key?15:16
D-Iivil_Workkwtm, why don't you just start typing the name of the app...15:17
D-Iivil_Workzash beat me to it :P15:17
kwtmHmm, strange, the installation process of "rootsh" did not involve me setting the root password ... wonder how I'll gain root.  Anyway, will uninstall OpenSSH and then reinstall.  (That's the same as purge and reinstall, right?)15:17
kwtmWhat, typing the name of the app will seek to the app?  I tried that already.  I wish that feature were in place.15:18
D-Iivil_Workkwtm, you'll get root priviledges by typing this into xterm after installing rootsh: sudo gainroot15:18
D-Iivil_Workkwtm, after that you're root and everything you launch from that terminal session are ran as root15:18
kwtmOh, wow!  I'm root.  That makes it easy.15:18
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kwtmThen apt-get install mc, I guess... will save "sudo" later...15:19
D-Iivil_Workkwtm, you realize you need to be root before running mc or you won't be able to browse through "root" folders ;)15:19
kwtmD-Iivil_Work: Do I have to be root before running mc to browse through user's directories?  ("directories"!  Not "folders" --that's for MS Windows GUI people)15:20
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ham5its a single user os15:21
kwtmI mainly want mc so I can send files over Fish/SSh without having to type the exactly correct pathname --ie. use mc to browse.  I hope that feature is included.15:21
fralshmpf, lots of twitterhate on my hello kitty pillow :(15:21
D-Iivil_Workkwtm, noup.15:21
kwtmham5: By "user" I mean the single user, who is named "user".15:21
kwtmD-Iivil_Work: Ohh.... I have to be root just to run mc at all?15:21
D-Iivil_Workkwtm, no you don't have to.15:21
norayrppl, sorry for asking again: anyone heard where to get sources of kernel rotation support module for OS200815:21
D-Iivil_Workkwtm, if you run mc as user you'll be able to browse only user's directories and files.15:22
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kwtmD-Iivil_Work: That's all I need.  I just want to send files over the network and have a decent directory browser.15:22
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kwtmUh oh.  I'm running mc now (thanks for all the help to all of you, btw) and ... how do I get function keys on the keyboard?15:23
D-Iivil_Workkwtm, okay then :) I find mc pretty difficult to use with touchscreen though. So I'll just do everything from command line.15:23
kwtmI can't even select the F10 button to quit!15:23
kwtmD-Iivil_Work: As I mentioned, I'm using mc as a replacement for scp, so I don't have to memorize the exactly correct pathname on the server computer to retrieve a file.15:24
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kwtmEspecially when half the characters in the filename need to be typed on the Symbols virtual keyboard.15:24
kwtmMohammadAG: Help!  How do I get function keys to use mc on the n900?15:25
MohammadAGkwtm, you can use the on screen buttons15:25
MohammadAGI'd rather use terminal15:25
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kwtmOh!!! THe touchscreen works!  I thought this was like the console variety which ignores my mouse.15:26
kwtmOkay, I was able to figure out that Esc-9 is the same as F9.  This will let me take away the top menu bar and bottom key bar and get more screen real estate for the actual mc panels.15:26
kwtmHmm... insert.  Where's the insert key for selecting... <mumble mumble>15:28
lcukfrals, you deserve a ribbing for hello kitty pillow - unless its on mrs frals side of the bed15:28
kwtmMohammadAG: I'd rather use terminal, too ... unless I have to retrieve a file from the server and don't know the exact name.15:28
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fralslcuk: it is15:29
lcukthen its all good!15:30
lcukglad you are settling in :)15:30
fralsaye me too, tis great to have a home again15:30
kwtmfrals: Should we believe you about which side of the bed the pillow is on? :)15:30
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fralskwtm: ;)15:30
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fralslcuk: only downside is eta for home inet conn is 3 weeks >_<15:30
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fralsand not a single wlan in range of my apartment that is open/wep :(15:31
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lcukfrals, not the end of the world, you work at nokia! you should use the time to test some gigabit 7g wireless neural connect internet technology15:31
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kwtmWhoa, wait, what??  Frals works at nokia?  In the n900 department, hopefully?15:32
fralsjust waiting for my cell operator to yell at me for using obscene amount of data on phone15:32
lcukfrals when they do complain just say you were ircing in #maemo :p15:32
fralslcuk: :D15:33
lcukmy god kylie gets better and better everytime she performs15:33
kwtmOh, no, n900 is slowing down again.  It looks like it's going to crash soon.15:33
keriowhy can't i push "y" at apt-get's prompt?15:33
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fralsvideocalling to the mrs frals over skype isnt to friendly on the data usage :p15:33
keriouse wifi15:34
kerioaircrack works15:34
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lcukewwww id rather pay for legit connection than send data over a hacked stream15:34
keriomaybe in a couple fo years, but sure15:34
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MohammadAGaircrack works to decrypt the key, does it work for dumping packets or injecting crap?15:34
fralshence me using 3g :p15:34
kwtmIsn't the ETA to cracking wpa2 somewhat longer than the wait before getting your broadband installed?15:34
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kerioMohammadAG: monitor mode works15:35
kerioand packed injecting works too, as i've been told15:35
MohammadAGneeds a patch afaik15:35
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kerioi think you just need kernel-power15:35
fralslcuk: yeah, im sticking to 3g ;)15:35
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keriohey, the "mouse" works in mc15:35
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kwtmkerio: Oh, you like mc, too, hmm?  I just installed it myself.15:36
kerioi installed it after hearing that from you, actually15:38
kerio(mc *is* awesome)15:38
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kwtmHmm... well, this time I managed to enter my password but there has been a suspiciously long delay (still ongoing) while I'm waiting for it to read in the remote directory...15:39
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fralsfor the record, easystroke is friggin awesome15:42
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lcukfrals, on desktop or 90015:43
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pupnikyou could have a screen that rotates 90 degrees to reveal a one-handed e71 style keyboard15:44
MohammadAGkerio, just tried aircrack15:44
pupnikthat might look too weird eh15:44
MohammadAGit fails on the first step15:44
MohammadAGno iw15:44
lcukpupnik, ive seen some mobile designs similar afaik15:44
kerioairodump-ng correctly sets monitor mode here15:44
fralslcuk: on desktop15:44
* lcuk nods15:44
lcuktry it on n900 ;)15:44
MohammadAGkerio, and airmon-ng?15:45
* pupnik just rubbed what smells like bee-wax all over a table15:45
pupniki think i should have done a preserving oil first15:45
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: 1.2 is flashing modem with new incompatible firmware (kakashi)15:45
kwtmfrals: easystroke is what, exactly?  Text input by gesture?15:45
fralslcuk: hehe, might actually try that.. could be awesome!15:46
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, hmm?15:46
kwtmBlast it, mc is not accepting my password to log in remotely.  I'll have to get a private/public key pair. :P15:46
fralskwtm: anything with gestures pretty much15:46
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MohammadAGbah, cba to crack my own network, I know my password15:46
kwtmfrals: Not found in extras-devel.  Worthwhile hunting down?15:46
X-FadeSometimes you really wonder what the **** is going on with version dependencies:15:47
X-FadeSetting up libqt4-dev (4.6.2~git20100401-0maemo1+0m5) ...15:47
X-FadeUnable to satisfy build-deps: libqt4-dev (>= 4.6.2)15:47
fralsdont think its available for n900, im using it on my desktop ubuntu15:47
lcukX-Fade, ~ is backwards version isnt it?15:47
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: kakashi went back to older fiasko, after flashing to Pr1.2, so his modem will fail due to modem firmware of 1.2 breaks 1.1.115:47
lcukam i mad for recalling something like that with the weird parsing order15:47
kwtmfrals: Oh.  You mean using gestures on your desktop? You're gesturing with your mouse, then? It's not for me, then.15:47
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D-Iivil_WorkX-Fade, you have a minute?15:48
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, oh, I know that, how old was that conversation though?15:48
fralskwtm: yes15:48
DocScrutinizerthis morning15:48
X-Fadelcuk: Well, it should resolve the plain part first, iirc.15:48
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X-FadeD-Iivil_Work: Sure15:48
lcukX-Fade, i understand, but the ~ after 2 makes it <215:49
D-Iivil_WorkX-Fade, can you explain me why is package description taken from devel version of the package to the extras-version?15:49
lcukor something odd15:49
MohammadAGlcuk, hasn't the version always been like that?15:49
X-FadeD-Iivil_Work: It asumes newest version is best.15:49
D-Iivil_WorkX-Fade, I mean, if you look here: that description is not from the extras-version. It's taken from devel version which has a lot more functionality than extras-version and ofcource I have written those features in the description field..15:50
MohammadAGD-Iivil_Work, the one in HAM should be fine15:50
X-FadeD-Iivil_Work: Yes, it takes everything from the most recent version.15:50
D-Iivil_WorkX-Fade, what's the point of that? That makes sense inside one repo, but when spread to all repos and not following the versions that's very confusing.15:51
X-FadeThat was a design decision, made sense back then ;)15:51
D-Iivil_WorkX-Fade, it would be ok if it took it from most recent extras-version.15:51
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D-Iivil_WorkX-Fade, how much beer was involved in that meeting? :D15:51
MohammadAGX-Fade, do you mind reversing my f up? :)15:51
X-FadeWill change at some point in the future though, it is not a trivial fix though.15:51
lcuk"The lexical comparison is a comparison of ASCII values modified so that all the letters sort earlier than all the non-letters and so that a tilde sorts before anything, even the end of a part. "15:52
D-Iivil_WorkX-Fade, it even seems to take the package name from devel version :-/ I mean the user friendly name set in control -file...15:52
MohammadAGX-Fade, and
X-FadeD-Iivil_Work: Everything, even icons etc.15:53
MohammadAGI should've changed the source name15:53
X-FadeIt is just the way the db schema is designed.15:53
D-Iivil_WorkX-Fade, that seems stupid since they_are_completely_separate_repos aren't they? :D15:53
MohammadAGA user who tries to install the kernel will see an error15:53
MohammadAGthat it is provided by a different package15:53
nidOD-Iivil_Work they are, but from a design point of view the idea is that they feed into each other15:54
X-FadeMohammadAG: You should not have uploaded kernel at all yes.15:54
D-Iivil_WorkX-Fade, anyways, just though letting you know. But since it's already under your knowledge then I guess I have nothing else to ask :P15:54
X-FadeMohammadAG: I guess there was even a warning in your build log mail?>15:54
MohammadAGX-Fade, yeah, I noticed it yesterday in the SDK and today on device15:54
D-Iivil_WorkGotta go now. Cya guys later.15:54
MohammadAGnot that I remember, sec15:54
X-FadeMohammadAG: Shall I remove it?15:54
MohammadAGX-Fade, please :)15:55
MohammadAGI'll rebuild it with a different name15:55
X-FadeMohammadAG: yeah, look at kernel-power for instance.15:55
MohammadAGX-Fade, anything on perl-modules? frozen-bubble got -4 cause the package is missing :)15:55
MohammadAGX-Fade, already figured it out :)15:55
norayrheeeeeeeeeeey, peeeeeeeeople. any tip about installing portrait mode kernel module on OS2008?15:56
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norayrwithout reflashing the device, as I run maemo from the different partiotion15:56
norayrhow to do it by reflashing is described here
lcuknorayr, enjoying your n800? :)15:57
norayryep, my n810 :)15:57
norayrand i use opera15:58
* lcuk should really build latest liqbase on it15:58
norayrwhich supports rotation id kernel module is installed15:58
norayri can compile it from sources, i have gcc on the tables15:58
norayrjust where to find them...15:58
norayrand whether module source is open15:58
nidOheh, ebay shill bidder fined 5 grand and ordered to do 250 hours community service15:58
lcuknorayr, i believe the rotation code is open15:59
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norayrthats great. however no link in the mentioned wiki articel16:00
lcuknorayr, have you tried
* lcuk thanks jott once again16:01
norayrlet me take a look :)16:01
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norayrthey use flasher for installation... again. i'll try to find any source link from there16:03
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lcuknorayr, lots of people happily rotated n8x0 using jotts code, i think a later update and some bitrot have occured, if you do get it working and the instructions have changed could you please try to update the wiki with later info16:05
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mirfey up pupnik_16:05
pupnik_hi mirf16:06
norayrlcuk: sure, necessarily :)16:06
pupnik_congratulations to finland for winning the world Wife-Carrying Championship!16:06
lcuklol pupnik_ i saw that and giggled16:06
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mikki-kunpupnik_: wanna post a link?16:16
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mikki-kunohhh, soory XD didn't expect to hl somebody w00t_ ^^'''16:16
mikki-kuni kinda grew accustomed to use that ^^16:17
mikki-kunbtw, you reflected a lil about how you came to maemo, right16:17
mikki-kunwas nice reading that :)16:17
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MohammadAGX-Fade, you forgot the binaries,
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mintshi all16:26
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GAN900I wonder if we've driven all of the MeeGo people away from mwkn yet.16:34
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kwtmYea! Successfully used mc to browse remote computer and retrieve file!  Much handier than scp.  Thanks to MohammadAG and D-Iivil_Work and lcuk for all the help.16:35
kwtmAm going to sleep now (4 hours late).16:36
lcuk:) kwtm good game!16:36
MohammadAGheh, night kwek16:36
MohammadAGsorry kwek, night kwtm16:36
* MohammadAG stabs his tab key16:36
kwekgood night16:36
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E0xwhat exactly do the "IDEAL" config in kernerl-power-user16:50
E0xwhat what is the default clock ?16:50
E0x( stock kernel )16:50
keriowhat what16:51
kerioin the butt16:51
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GAN900E0x, 600MHz.17:07
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E0xGAN900: so , "IDEAL" is just default17:09
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ohwhymehmm i just formatted emmc and i get a not enough memory to restore a abckup :O17:10
kerioideal overclocks it17:10
FIQthere's smth wrong w/my battery17:11
E0xkerio: ?17:11
E0xkerio: what do ideal ?17:11
keriooverclocks it17:11
E0xto ?17:11
keriodon't remember17:11
FIQit states that it's low but i charge it17:11
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toggles_wFIQ: are you using the genuine charger?17:33
FIQi don't know what genuine means in english (not my first language)17:33
FIQbut i use the one that came with the phone17:34
FIQso i guess i use the "right" one17:34
toggles_wok, then you should be good, some of the 3rd party ones don't produce enough current17:34
FIQE0x, ty17:34
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FIQsome days ago my battery didn't wanted to be used at all. I opened the back and it didn't sat in the place hard at all17:36
FIQit almost fell of when i held the phone so the battery was upside-down17:36
FIQnot atm, but could it be related?17:36
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pupnik_i noticed that my n810 refuses to *charge* from a car-charger (nokia or other brands), but it will draw power from one17:39
E0xFIQ: i think you can buy a replacement17:40
E0xbut not sure17:40
E0xgoogle for it17:40
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E0xor go directly to nokia website17:40
FIQE0x, well, not sure if it's the battery or the place that the battery is supposed to be in17:40
FIQ(as it didn't sit well in it yesterday)17:40
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E0xFIQ: then maybe you want take you device to some nokia store17:41
E0xand get a check17:41
FIQnow this text appeared:17:41
FIQ"Don't charging" ("Laddar inte" @sv)17:41
FIQe0x, guess so17:41
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DocScrutinizerFIQ: unplug and replug the charger USB plug, please17:50
DocScrutinizercheck notifications, qoute them here17:51
fatalhey... have hardware rev 2001 (note: not 2101).... trying to flash the image, but apparently I need some super-secret recepie to do so... anyone got any hints on this?17:51
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FIQ<DocScrutinizer> FIQ: unplug and replug the charger USB plug, please17:52
DocScrutinizerfatal: nobody knows he super-secret receipe - it's super-secret17:52
FIQthe usb charger you mean?17:52
DocScrutinizerFIQ: sure17:52
FIQbecause i've no access to computer here and until friday17:52
DocScrutinizerFIQ: the wallcharger has a USB plug, no? please unplug it from N900, then replug it17:53
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FIQah, you mean that17:53
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FIQit said "Take off the charger from the wall to save energy" - "Charging"17:54
DocScrutinizerlooks good17:54
DocScrutinizerFIQ: please open xterm, and enter 'lshal|grep percent'17:54
FIQ  battery.charge_level.percentage = 0  (0x0)  (int)17:55
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FIQthat didn't looked good to me17:55
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* lcuk turns over and tries to sleep17:56
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fatalDocScrutinizer: supposedly this is the super-secret recepie:
DocScrutinizerFIQ: lshal|grep battery17:57
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DocScrutinizerFIQ: check for "battery.rechargeable.is_charging = true"17:57
rcgdoes anyone have an idea how to avoid that is being send on dbus?17:57
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rcgprogrammatically i have to add ;)17:58
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DocScrutinizerbattery.voltage.current = 418817:58
FIQ battery.rechargeable.is_charging = true  (bool)17:58
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jacekowskircg: execve("killall","-9","mce");17:59
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DocScrutinizerjacekowski: WTF?18:00
rcgjacekowski: well this looks a little brutal to me18:00
DocScrutinizerrcg: your question is a little confusing18:01
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: that was C solution to his problem18:01
DocScrutinizerrcg: probably that isn't what you really want to do18:01
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: not the best one, but it would work18:01
FIQdocscruntinizer, should tha tpercentage meter keep itself at 0?18:01
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: BS18:01
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jacekowskiwhich part?18:01
DocScrutinizerFIQ: it should *eventually* rise18:01
DocScrutinizerFIQ: please check voltage as supposed some lines above18:02
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rcgDocScrutinizer: well, i know this sounds kinda strange ... reason is that drnoksnes stops any game on receiving that signal .. which of course makes perfect sense18:02
FIQ battery.voltage.current = 3428  (0xd64)  (int)18:02
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DocScrutinizerjacekowski: the "reboot on mce-kill" part18:02
jacekowskihmm, i forgot about that18:03
DocScrutinizerFIQ: this value should rise more noticeably18:03
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DocScrutinizerjust takes 60s longer18:03
keriostop mce18:03
rcgmy problem is that e.g. when using zeecontrol, the xtest events used by zeecontrol are not taken as user input .. hence the system will "shutdown" after the selected time period18:03
FIQoh, it has been there since my first grep (that was 7mins ago) on battery info18:04
FIQbut maybe i should just wait a bit more18:04
DocScrutinizerrcg: so it's probably a *much* better idea to generate events, rather than to filter/block one event18:04
rcgi can programmatically keep the display on .. so the problem remains that drnoksnes pauses the game on receiving the inactivity signal and the events caused by zeecontrol seem no to influence the inactivity counter18:04
rcgDocScrutinizer: yeah, i am looking for some event that basically "resets" the inactivity timer18:05
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pupnik_  not a bad app idea for N90018:06
DocScrutinizerrcg: try e.g.
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tybolltoh blimey18:07
DocScrutinizerrcg: I'm not sure it resets the inactivity timer you got the problem with. But basically the bug is somewhere in your existing code, which fails to generate the correct events, rather than to reset a timer the brute force way18:07
tybolltmy phone just spontaneously rebooted18:07
tybolltbattery is full18:08
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DocScrutinizertybollt: I've seen that happening once18:08
FIQthat has happened to me twice18:08
tybolltDocScrutinizer: fair enough - so I shouldn't assume I'm pwned then ;)18:08
DocScrutinizerread out /proc/bootreason18:08
FIQboth times when i played with m64p18:08
tybolltalso - please pardon my french.,.. bit upset over here... ;)18:09
rcgDocScrutinizer: a sweet .. dbus-send-unlock seems to do the trick18:09
rcgthanks for the tip :)18:09
FIQmust say that the os/phone is pretty stable with only two randomreboots18:09
FIQsince feb18:09
tybolltDocScrutinizer: sw_rst - so "software reset", what'd that mean? panic()?18:10
nidOthe only "random reboot" i've has was a few weeks ago when the phone decided to spontaneously drain battery charge at like 20x it's normal idle rate overnight and flatten in like 3 hours then shut down :<18:10
DocScrutinizerprobably means some software intentionally rebooted the device18:10
jacekowskinidO: i had same thing today18:11
nidOI had installed arapp the same day which I initially pegged as the possible cause, but I havent had it happen since despite reinstalling the software18:11
tybolltcoulda been omweather I suppose - seeing as I never comply w/ its "you have to prommise to reboot"  - no SRSLY we mean it, reboot! "Hey, you didn't reboot yet"18:11
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DocScrutinizermight have been dsme on detecting a 'hanging' process. The hanging process might have been caused by swapping, or high cpu load, or whatever18:12
nidOI only have weatherbug installed atm, got rid of omweather a while ago to conserve power a bit18:12
nidOreally nice weather app in ovi18:12
tybolltnidO: so it's omweather that is sucking the juice off of my device then? I've serious battery problems...18:13
nidOnot specifically, but getting rid of it was basically just one less running widget on my desktop18:13
DocScrutinizerI mean, just check it, with powertop18:13
ShadowJKFIQ: is this N900?18:13
nidOI dont really need weather forecasts so urgently as to need a widget available all the time so just ditched omweather completely and replaced with weatherbug18:13
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nidOand got a slight battery life improvement as a result18:14
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tybolltnidO: 's it look fancier than om?18:14
nidOyeah, has streaming video weather forecasts and info built right into it too18:14
ShadowJKfiq: out of interest, what does 'hal-device bme|grep' (without the '' quotes) say?18:15
tybolltIono - I don't particularely care to be perfectly honest but missus love peeking at my mobile to get the forecast ;)18:15
nidOi usually just peek at my missus', her hd2 displays weather better than any widget the n900 will ever get :p18:15
tybollt(now if I could only remember to stash those sms convo's from the mistress away ;)18:15
tybolltnidO: I gave missus an android thing last week to try and remedy this... what weather apps is there of rit?18:16
tybolltfor it?18:16
nidOwell the hd2 is 1) a winmo phone and 2) has htc's sense ui which includes a weather display splashed across the whole of the home screen18:17
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ShadowJKtybollt: /var/lib/dsme for stats on restarts and resets, iirc18:17
nidOfor a non-htc android, id imagine there's gotta be loads of decent weather software though18:17
tybolltsjk: ty18:17
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tybolltnidO: I know shit about android so would appreciate tips - however I know crashie will prob ably lay down the law on me soon if I continue this OT ranting ;)18:18
ShadowJKstats/lifeguard_resets probably18:18
jacekowskicamera-ui - 4518:19
jacekowskisystemui 1018:19
FIQ<ShadowJK> fiq: out of interest, what does 'hal-device bme|grep' (without the '' quotes) say?18:19
ShadowJKis that _restarts or _resets?18:19
* FIQ checks18:19
nidOtybollt: weatherbug has an android app as well, no idea if it includes any kind of homescreen widget though18:20
tybolltsjk: low numbers on average and then ... "camera-ui: 21" W-T-F? :)18:20
FIQ = 1297  (0x511)  (int)18:20
ShadowJKHm, that looks fine18:20
ShadowJK(at fiq)18:20
tybolltso it's normal for the cammy to regularely kill  phone? Awwww...18:21
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DocScrutinizertybollt: I guess that's the number of process restarts, but dsme doesn't restart whole system on a process single restart. Usually processes are configured in a way they are restarted multiple times until finally dsme gives up and restarts whole phone18:24
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tybolltfair enough18:25
DocScrutinizertybollt: see dsmetool --help  and -t18:26
keriocan i access the microsd when connecting the n900 to a computer with the usb cable?18:26
kerio(in storage mode, i mean)18:26
DocScrutinizertybollt: -c --max-count=N                Restart process only maximum N times                                   in defined period of time                                   (the default is 10 times in 60 s)18:26
tybolltdoc: So we could still conclude my phone had a serious booboo then18:27
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DocScrutinizerhmm, dunno if it's in the specs of cam-ui to occasionally block/quit and need a single restart18:28
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DocScrutinizertybollt: see, I heard of a SE phone some time ago, that regularly schedules a system boot every 24h :-P18:29
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WormFoodwhat does "cold flash" do? I can't figure out what exactly it does. ("cold flash" is not descriptive if you have no idea what it is supposed to do)18:30
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DocScrutinizerWormFood: unclear. Needed when NOLO bootloader is broken. Probably some JTAG fixture involved18:31
WormFoodI'm not sure what I need to do, now that I've replaced my backup battery18:31
DocScrutinizerboot and feel happy?18:32
WormFoodwhen I power it off, it just reboots, and when I boot with the external memory card, it says it is corrupt...but if I pop it out, and back in, it works fine18:32
DocScrutinizergive the backup battery a good while to charge18:32
WormFoodit still boots as soon as I insert the (main) battery18:32
WormFoodyeah, I just got home, and I'm charging it now.18:32
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WormFoodhopefully everything will be ok.18:32
floydiannhey all =)18:33
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GAN900fatal, you need a LEGACY image.18:34
GAN900fatal, or change your hw-revision using the flasher18:34
DocScrutinizerWormFood: (cold flash) some of the NIT oldtimers should know better - e.g. qwerty1218:34
GAN900But that could be bad18:34
GAN900E0x / kerio, anything higher than 600 is extremely likely to severely reduce the life expectancy of your device. As 600MHz already has certain risks there, it's considered ideal. :)18:35
GAN900DocScrutinizer, why are we cold flashing?18:36
WormFoodI was asking about it18:36
WormFoodI replaced the backup battery in my N800, and not sure what I need to do to make everything work right again.18:36
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GAN900Well, cold flashing is for when NOLO is trashed and can't do it.18:37
DocScrutinizeras in "expected lifetime with 500MHz max = >20 years. With 600MHz = 5 yeras. with 700MHz = 1 year" something along that idea18:37
GAN900If it's booting, NOLO isn't trashed.18:37
tybolltDocScrutinizer: hoopla :S18:38
WormFoodok...I suspected I didn't need to cold flash, but not sure, as I've never had the backup battery run dead before18:38
* tybollt is bit suprised at how utterly unusable Ovi store is :-o18:38
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FIQi've always got the insight that Ovi suck18:39
FIQnever used it more than for downloading bounce18:39
FIQand Fx18:39
DocScrutinizerWormFood: it's not uncommon for the devices to be shipped from fab with flat bupbat18:40
DocScrutinizerWormFood: so recovery from flat bupbat should be painless18:40
WormFoodwell, I'm still getting the same symptoms as before....charging now...I'm inpatient, I want it to work right NOW! :P18:41
DocScrutinizerbackup battery18:41
DocScrutinizerwell, odds are you still got another bug as well18:42
WormFoodI couldn't imagine what else could be wrong with it.18:43
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DocScrutinizerNokia ruined my powerswitch when they fixed another hw bug18:43
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DocScrutinizerI'm not sure whether it's the switch spring, or a solder joint18:44
DocScrutinizerthe way Nokia built the switches and buttons (the industry standard way) there's nothing keeping excessipe pressure force away from the flimpsy SMT switch18:45
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IkarusDocScrutinizer: you'd wish they'd use the mechanical equivilent of clamping diodes :)18:46
DocScrutinizersome lever for the plastic button to stop it after some 0.5mm, and keep actuall switch out of range of that and operate it with a spring18:47
DocScrutinizercould all be done wih a minimally improved mold for the plastic parts18:48
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DocScrutinizerWormFood: does your powerswitch still have a clear click when pressed18:53
DocScrutinizerdo you feel the pressue point when it switches over?18:53
WormFoodno, it does nothing on the software...of course, I feel it click when I press it18:54
WormFoodI used to get the menu that asks what I want to do, such as power off, or lock it, but now it just reboots18:54
DocScrutinizerthat's good. It's probably not the switch spring then18:54
fatalGAN900: thanks, changed hw rev... worked fine.18:55
DocScrutinizerit reboots as oon as you press power button?18:55
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chem|stDocScrutinizer: that would be a fail setup then and not the switch18:55
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DocScrutinizerI seem to remember settings for that in /etc/mce/mce.cfg18:56
DocScrutinizermight be same in diablo18:56
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DocScrutinizerthere's also some magic for power-on behaviour in flasher R&D-flags or sth. like 'force-poweron=yes" means device boots up when you insert battery18:58
DocScrutinizer(please look up the correct wording by yourself, I guess I'm close at best)18:58
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MiXu-It's called "auto power" iirc19:01
MiXu-at least in some context19:01
cancHi, is this the right place if I want to ask about N900 hardware issues ?19:02
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MiXu-This or talk.maemo.org19:02
MiXu-What's the issue?19:02
cancso, here my trouble : the battery seems to be down, and I can't power the n900 anymore19:03
DocScrutinizerwhat's the exact symptoms?19:03
cancok, from the start19:03
DocScrutinizeryeah, please19:03
MiXu-canc: Put it in a charger and don't touch it for 30 minutes. Then try to start.19:03
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cancthis morning it was down19:03
DocScrutinizerMiXu-: wait! let us hear the full story19:03
cancafter plugin it, the screen did show the logo, then nothing19:04
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cancI've put it on charge until the ornage light did blink19:04
DocScrutinizerwith backlight or gey on white?19:04
DocScrutinizerok blinking yellow is a good sign19:04
cancI've managed to have it running a few minutes19:05
cancand then it shut down again19:05
DocScrutinizeryour charger is too weak, and/or you have some power hog running on your system19:05
cancknow the light stay fixed orange and I can't have it on again19:05
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konttoricanc: you could also try charging the battery with e.g. n810 (if you have one)19:06
cancI've installed the application to monitor the battery life19:06
cancno, I don't have one19:06
DocScrutinizerlet it stay solid orange for 30min. then unplug and replug the wallcharger USB plug19:06
cancso, you agree, it's the battery that's flat ?19:06
MiXu-Not necessarily anything wrong with it. Just let it charge for good 30 minutes and see what happens. Don't try to start it during that time.19:07
DocScrutinizersteady orange is emergency recovery charge mode. it will charge your cell for 30 min, then stop19:07
cancdo I have a way of knowing if the battery is charged ?19:08
DocScrutinizerafter 30 min, unplug the charger and replug, to start charging again. eventually it will enter normal blinking charge mode19:08
DocScrutinizerlet it charge then until green19:08
cancso, what I've read on the forum is true, letting the battery fully discharge is "bad" ?19:08
DocScrutinizeruse wall charger by all means! never try to charge in emergency mode via USB host PC19:09
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cancok, it is on wall charger19:09
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DocScrutinizeryes, you should avoid to discharge it completely19:09
DocScrutinizerusually this won't happen, as system shuts down before cell is flat19:09
cancok, note for the future me19:09
DocScrutinizerif however you try to reboot several times, you might tease your luck19:10
kerioheh, mappero wants to download 1479542782 maps19:10
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DocScrutinizerso general advice: if system shuts down, do NOT try to reboot it. Hook it to wallcharger instead and wait until it's considerably charged19:11
cancrebooting to much is bad ?19:11
MiXu-No problem in rebooting, but if the battery gets too empty, it's a pain to get back up, as you now see. :)19:11
chem|stcanc: your device may shutdown but don't try to start it several times without recharging the bat first, keeps you out of trouble as it will never run out dead then (keep in mind that the battery will die if you keep it uncharged for a descent period)19:12
DocScrutinizercanc: rebooting can not check for flat battery in the first millisecond. It will inevitably drain your cell further until it decides the cell is too weak already, and shuts down again19:12
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DocScrutinizerso yes, several reboots are bad, if your battery is flat19:13
keriohey, openstreet is good19:13
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cancok, so fixed orange light mean : emergency power mode19:14
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keriodoes anyone use mappero here?19:14
chem|stkerio: canc yes19:14
keriohow do i download maps?19:14
cancthanks a lot :)19:14
chem|stkerio: you mean for offline? there wont be routing offline19:15
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DocScrutinizercanc: exactly it means the battery is too weak to boot the system, and the battery management chip tries to recover some capacity to the point where the system can reboot and start decent charging19:15
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cancso, is there a way to monitor the battery state ?19:16
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cancI mean, the N900 was plugged all night long19:16
kerioso it's useless as a standalone GPS, if you have to go through points with no data19:17
chem|stcanc: in this state no, for normal usage batteryEye19:17
DocScrutinizercanc: due to safety considerations this emergency recover charge mode will persist only 32 minutes. If cell isn't sufficiently recovered after that, you need to retsart the process19:17
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chem|stkerio: you may download all tiles from a dialog in mappero but doing it for a large are will do no good!19:17
DocScrutinizercanc: N900 has annoying habit to not always detect charger. So you can run down battery even while hooked up to charger19:17
DocScrutinizercanc: you always should check if it is actually signalling it's charging19:18
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cancDocScrutinizer: so, if after somes tries, the battery is overheating and still not loaded, it could mean that it is broken19:18
cancDocScrutinizer: ok, I had this sensation about the charger not charging :)19:18
chem|stDocScrutinizer: never had that but PC-USB with 500mA was not enough at some point ;)19:18
ShadowJKIf it gets hot in emergency charge mode, something is very wrong19:19
DocScrutinizeryes, actually19:19
cancthis afternoon, it was really hot19:19
DocScrutinizerprobably the cell is broken. Might happen if you drop it hard19:19
keriochem|st: how do other navigation programs do that then?19:19
canc... Does a little rain when on motorcycle count as "dropping hard" ? ...19:20
DocScrutinizercanc: try the emergency recover charge like described above. Keep an eye on  it. If it gets hot, remove battery and visit your Nokia care center19:21
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: how's the open charging coming?19:21
* Stskeeps just returned home19:21
SpeedEvilOpen charging is trivial.19:21
SpeedEvilIntegrating it with the rest of the stack is less so.19:22
cancDocScrutinizer: thanks, I'll do as you say19:22
DocScrutinizerstill sitting over some scripts and pondering details. My impression was meego isn't that much interested in a quick & dirty solution19:22
Stskeepsbetter to have a proper solution you can QA19:22
* ShadowJK is charging without bme right now19:22
chem|stkerio: static maps data with one lvl of detail, rendered for different levels19:23
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DocScrutinizerI'm doing that frequently, as do ShadowJK and SpeedEvil - it's a silly oneliner19:23
ShadowJKIn maemo5 we don't know how to talk to dsme, pulseaudio, and everything else that bme extends its tentacles19:23
chem|stkerio: and europe is about +2GB for any device19:23
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: did you figure out temperature checks?19:23
SpeedEvilStskeeps: In some ways that isn't interesting.19:23
DocScrutinizerthere are two temp sensors on mainboard, one on GAYA and one on GAZOO19:24
DocScrutinizercalled battemp both19:24
SpeedEvilStskeeps: Derate charge from 20-50C linearly, and turn off if >70C or so19:24
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ShadowJKalso bq27200 has one. I'm using that for temperature throttling myself19:24
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DocScrutinizerthe bq27200 isn't thermally coupled to the battery as closely. Dunno about the other two though :-P19:25
ShadowJKMy script manages to stay at 2-3C of target even with a very braindead simple method19:25
ShadowJKYeah but bq27200 seems to be in a very thermally active area ;p19:25
DocScrutinizersure :-P19:26
keriohow about we just pester nokia with the source for the bme?19:26
Stskeepswell, package up a C program doing charging, make it testable somehow - write testcases, .. write a devicekit-power (i think) plugin for battery level reading19:26
DocScrutinizera lot of nice power hog chip next to it19:26
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Stskeepsit's always easier to relate to something that people can test and actually try out19:26
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ShadowJKI've seen bme happily charge at max power when bq27200 has read 60C19:27
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: for sure I won't write a C program for that shit19:27
Stskeepsintegrating it into maemo is going to be hell19:27
ShadowJKSo I set my own throttle at 5019:27
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: i'm thinking oom situations where a script might not be good (multiple processes..)19:27
slonopotamuswhat the heck are you doing, guys?19:27
DocScrutinizerslonopotamus: just replace bme19:27
ShadowJKIf I had spare time I could do a C version :)19:28
Stskeepsgot a wiki on instructions?19:28
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: (jr)bme is low inportance really. Nothing bad will happen when it gets killed or jsut reniced to oblivion19:28
ShadowJKI mostly write it in bash script whnever I have a few minutes spare time :)19:29
DocScrutinizeryep, exactly19:29
* ShadowJK hasn't found optified gcc and libc-dev yet ;@19:29
DocScrutinizermuch better for this purpose19:29
lcukthere isnt one ShadowJK19:29
lcukits sdk - tho i wonder how many votes a bug would need19:30
DocScrutinizerI mean jrbme is doing next to nothing, on a time sheduled basis of like every 5 seconds19:30
DocScrutinizera script is perfect for this19:30
ShadowJKOh yeah, that's the nice thing about N900's battery hardware, if software dies the hw reverts to failsafe defaults19:30
keriowhy do we need a software then19:30
DocScrutinizerand I couldn't care less about hlad-addon-bme19:30
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: exactly19:31
Stskeepsanything HAL is useless anyway19:31
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ShadowJKkerio: because the failsafe only charges battery to 40% or so19:31
DocScrutinizeras it's also foolproof19:31
DocScrutinizeror let's call it err... failsafe :-D19:32
Arkenoinow i know what is that dirt collecting screen border made for19:32
ShadowJKand the failsafe shutdown can potentially corrupt filesystems19:32
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kerioShadowJK: journaling19:32
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* Stskeeps doesn't understand if you do have a working charging, why not package it up and release..19:32
DocScrutinizerhmm, shouldn't. This should be a function of TWL4030 lovolt threshold that does a shutdown -h now19:33
ShadowJKkerio: journaling is fine on harddrives, but flash is so unpredictable in what random chunks of data you'll lose all over19:33
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: because we need to care about 2*3*4*5 permutations for niche cases, like PC host which refuses to enum, etc19:33
Arkenoimy n900 slipped from my pocket while i was running for a train, fell screen down and slided the stone floor several meters19:34
Arkenoinot a single scratch ;-)19:34
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: sounds like it needs to be more than a shellscript then19:34
kerioStskeeps: it just needs *more* shell scripts19:34
DocScrutinizerwhy would a shellscript be incapable to handle several cases?19:35
Stskeepstraditionally it needs a boatload of external dependancies and is not foolproof19:35
kerio"For instance, how do i make my n900 charge his battery without the bme? The answer... use a shell script."19:35
ShadowJKstskeeps: what's missinfrom mine: Charger insertion/removal detection, charger restart handling after fault, charger restart decision and handling after full charge.. and usb as doc mentioned19:35
kerio"And if that don't work... use more shell script."19:35
* slonopotamus wonders why not brainfuck or whitespace19:35
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DocScrutinizerStskeeps: for now we are dealng with exactly one case: charging from wallcharger, on a system that we know almost all about its current state19:35
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ShadowJKParticulary for the charger insertion/removal I think I'll move to C19:36
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: fair enough19:36
DocScrutinizerfor kevents etc19:36
ShadowJKoh also todo: low battery alarm/ shutdown19:37
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DocScrutinizerbut for now I don't see the need19:37
slonopotamusDocScrutinizer: shutdowns suck, yep19:37
DocScrutinizerall this can be checked for POC in a script. Then we may move to Python, C, whatever19:37
keriodo you think a bug in the "Nokia Nseries" theme's wallpapers will be accepted?19:38
ShadowJKWe also need to discuss full-charge behaviour. Do we restart charger at 90-95% or do we float down to something less than 4.2?19:38
lcukso this bme code - it has to be lunar spec i gather - same sort of review as the software used to fly space ships?19:38
kerioShadowJK: macbooks only start the charge when at 95% or less19:38
chem|stslonopotamus: had my device +6hours at 0% charge lvl wifi on...19:38
DocScrutinizeryes, that's another question. Probably only Nokia or the user can decide19:38
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: as for now bme is doing both, plus a third even more weird thing, and at least one of the 3 is a bug in bme19:39
chem|stShadowJK: that would mean my device would never stop charging... 92%-96% is state after full charge19:39
lcukbattery manufacturers at the far end of the chain would need to inform about the preferred condition of their batteries wouldnt they19:39
lcukDocScrutinizer, ShadowJK can you identify which battery it is?19:39
ShadowJKchem: that's just a side-effect of how it's measured19:40
DocScrutinizerlcuk: err what? We can check if the cell has correct BSI value (a resistor)19:40
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ShadowJKchem: I'd use the bq27200 measurements that reset to 100% on full charge detection19:40
SpeedEvilMy logic on charging goes like this.19:41
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chem|stShadowJK: side effect means that it doesnt reach the mA nor voltage ever again...19:41
SpeedEvilIt is 'safe' to charge the battery to 4.2V, then leave it on a shelf for a few months.19:41
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SpeedEvilIt must similarly be safe to charge the battery to 4.2V, then float the battery at 0 average current for a few months19:41
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SpeedEvilEven though there are instantaneous spikes up or down.19:42
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ShadowJKchemist: When bme's meter says 92-96%, bq27200 says 100% and that's what I'd use19:42
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: you'll watch the battery voltage drop to considerably lower level, without any discharge, after stopping charging at 4.219:42
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SpeedEvilI know.19:42
kerioi don't get what's wrong with the current bme, btw19:43
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: and due to the spikes you can't tell for sure when your avrg zero current in/out is reached19:43
SpeedEvilUnfortunately, you can't read the charge counter at 'full'19:43
DocScrutinizerhmm, not sure19:44
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ShadowJKlcuk: it's a user convenience vs battery longevity issue. We can instruct the charger to maintain full charge after reaching full, but this can potentially reduce the longevity of the battery, or, we can monitor battery after fullcharge, and instruct charger to begin chargong at 90-95% or something.19:44
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DocScrutinizerI think I've seen it increasing on GTA02 battery, for some 100mAh after it switched to 100%19:44
lcukShadowJK, how does bme do it currently19:45
SpeedEvilI mean - you'd really want - once it measures 'full' - to keep the charge at this level.19:45
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: we won't 'instruct' - bq24150 does that in hardware19:45
ShadowJKlcuk: as doc said, a combination of both, and a third wtf-is-this-shit bug mode19:45
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: tbh I don't19:45
SpeedEvilI meah - rather - you want once it measures full - to make it so there is no net current in or out of the battery19:46
kerioSpeedEvil: remove the battery!19:46
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ShadowJKSpeedEvil: i dont think we can accomplish that the way stuff is wired19:47
ShadowJKSo I'd favor microcycling over floating19:47
lcukDocScrutinizer, SpeedEvil, Stskeeps - we know bme is closed source.  has anyone asked for a flowchart/block diagram of its intended operation flow?  not quite the same thing and more like a spec for people to work from and discuss19:47
keriowhat's the rationale behind not giving us the source code? i mean, wtf19:48
DocScrutinizer51lcuk: I did19:48
lcukkerio, fires, explosions etc - justified in bmes case19:49
SpeedEvilPeople over on #thinkpad have reported great results with keeping the battery charged only to 90%19:49
DocScrutinizer51kerio: IP of outsource contractors aiui19:49
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keriolcuk: justified because...19:49
SpeedEvilAs in battery longevity several times better.19:49
SpeedEvilkerio: Sort-of19:49
ShadowJKSpeedEvil: Yep19:49
kerio*not* giving us the source could lead to that19:50
SpeedEvilkerio: The battery charger can be configured to charge the battery to 4.3V19:50
DocScrutinizer51lcuk: thjat's an urban legend and FUD19:50
lcukDocScrutinizer51, did you get any answer back?19:50
SpeedEvilkerio: Rather than the normal safe limit of 4.219:50
lcukok DocScrutinizer51 it may be FUD19:50
kerioSpeedEvil: who cares19:50
kerioif the user wants to do it... good for him19:50
lcukbut im happy to let it remain19:50
SpeedEvilkerio: It's a percieved problem apparantly.19:50
SpeedEvilkerio: And it's not the user19:50
SpeedEvilkerio: It's for example - someone installs an app in extras, that does it, for example, and a million phones catch fire.19:51
DocScrutinizer51lcuk: 'we're looking into it' 'we come back to you evetually' 'there are legal issues'19:51
SpeedEvil(though they won't actually catch fire, very likely)19:51
ShadowJKProviding a battery longeviy option with jrbme would be nice :)19:51
lcukDocScrutinizer51, if nokia had some engineering class apprentices in who needed to learn could produce such a document from the existing code and use it as part of their tuition ;)19:51
lcukand nokia and everyone gets a proper outlined spec about just what bme is and is not doing19:52
ShadowJKlcuk: on one hand the more we discover about bme the more disgusted I get and the less I want to know :)19:52
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DocScrutinizer51lcuk: even the requirement specs are considered to have legal issues19:52
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lcukDocScrutinizer51, thats fine, but discussing it now could make it happen even internally19:53
lcukit would be better if even under nda such documents could be available - it might remove the fud assoc with the component19:53
SpeedEvilHAs it instead been asked how to replace BME?19:53
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SpeedEvillcuk: All components - hardware - in this area have docs19:54
SpeedEvil(well - apart from the battery)19:54
ShadowJKSpeedEvil: btw on N8x0 after full charge and device being idle/standby, bme lets the battery go down the 90% point and keeps it at 87-90% :)19:54
ShadowJKI haven't seen maemo5 bme do this19:54
SpeedEvilShadowJK: that's probably sane, yeah19:54
ShadowJKThat longevity strategy is more than negated by the Polymer battery and pulse charging, though19:55
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* ShadowJK ponders asking mugen for something datasheet-like..19:57
pupnik_e71 is great for battery life19:58
DocScrutinizer51we should ask Nokia for a *decent* engineering Datasheet for BL-5J - incl recommended keep charged strategy and safety limits for e.g. temperature19:59
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DocScrutinizer51Imeam we don't even *want* to know what bme does. We are quite able to figure what it *should* do if we get battery datasheet20:01
pupnik_for some value of $we :)20:01
FIQthe Qt SDK is only capable of compiling things using Qt i guess?20:05
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FIQand not things that use for example fpc20:05
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alteregoI'm erm, liking Qt custom widgets :)20:22
alteregoMy app is starting to look s00per smooth :)20:23
SpCombQSS is also pretty magic20:24
SpCombtake away the margins, put in some gradient backgrounds, tweak the borders a little, and your normal widgets look totally different20:25
kerioi don't get why you guys are so against the official bme20:26
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SpCombthat's a different question20:26
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kerioit does what it's supposed to do, and it's under warranty20:27
luke-jrkerio: it's proprietary20:28
luke-jrWindows Mobile does what it's supposed to do, too20:29
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luke-jrwhy don't you just get a WinMo device?20:29
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keriobecause windows mobile sucks balls20:30
kynkywhat is winmo supposed todo ?20:30
luke-jrkerio: so does BME20:30
pupnik_i haven't seen the case that BME is anything less than good20:31
luke-jrpupnik_: the onus is on you to prove that20:31
luke-jrproprietary software is by default presumed malicious20:31
ShadowJKkerio: oh we want opensource replacement for meego and luke's gentoo ;p20:31
pupnik_how do you propose to write and test something that doesn't damage batteries?20:32
kerioluke-jr: of course20:33
kerioso run it in a chroot jail!20:33
luke-jrkerio: as if chroot makes things safe20:33
keriorun it in a VM20:33
luke-jreven if we jail BME enough to only do its job, it can still explode the battery ;)20:34
keriowell, that's under warranty20:34
ShadowJKpupnik: The conditons are: Battery voltage must stay above 2.5 and below 4.2. We can measure this from the fuel gauge chip20:34
luke-jr... if it was in a VM, it could only charge an emulated battery :p20:34
luke-jrkerio: you're assuming best-case scenario still20:34
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: could you ask Nokia for a comprehensive technical/engineering datasheet for N900 battery? Including recommended charging strategy (usually CC/CV with certain current/voltage limits and a allowed temp range is specified for that), ABS MAX ratings, expected lifetime, suggested keep-charged strategy, impedance... etc etc20:34
luke-jrkerio: think I, Robot and Nokia taking over the world20:34
kerioluke-jr: well, we can just remove the battery in that case20:34
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luke-jrkerio: N900 won't run without it20:35
keriohuh... that's the point20:35
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keriowe must stop the n900 insurrection20:35
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: stop telling BS. We CAN *NOT* explode the battery! PERIOD!20:35
luke-jrno, the point is to freely use a device we own20:35
ShadowJKluke-jr: actually DocScrutinizer ran his N900 without battery, on charger power for 30ish minutes20:35
luke-jrDocScrutinizer: not even on N810?20:36
kerioyeah, not having *full* specs for a supposedly "open" device kinda sucks20:36
keriobut meh20:36
kerionokia is doing what it can, in this patent-ridden world20:36
luke-jrNokia is doing what they feel they "have to" to appeal to us20:36
luke-jrcompromising won't get us anywhere ;)20:36
pupnik_ridden is correct.  being rode by lawyers.  we, the beasts.20:37
luke-jrkerio: nothing stops Nokia from using other parts20:37
ShadowJKOn N8x0 you can, as far as I understand the undocumented hw, dump all current from dc adapter into battery indefinitely. This would make it pregnant atleast, and if the failsafe inside the battery fails, there's a risk it would vent with flame20:37
pupnik_or to put a sharper point to it, by legislators20:37
luke-jrkerio: think of this point: Nokia's tablets are the *only* devices that require a blob charger20:37
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luke-jrevery other device, even ones that the company only supports WinMo, can charge without a blob20:38
ShadowJKN900's charger chip can not be programmed to dump infinite amounts of power into the battery, so you'd need a hammer to make it explode20:38
Mecewtf is a blob?20:38
luke-jrMece: proprietary software20:38
keriowell, there *is* the failsafe charging circuit20:39
luke-jr'blob' is to 'proprietary software', what 'trojan' is to 'remote control software'20:39
Mecewhich ones don't have proprietary charging bits then?20:39
ShadowJKn8x0 requires blob charging, N900 doesn't ;D20:40
luke-jrMece: NITs are the only ones that have blobs20:40
luke-jrI have never seen such blobs in *any* other device20:40
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Stskeepsheh. check archos20:40
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: as in other devices the OS is one hige blob by definition :-P20:40
ShadowJKEven if the hw was documented, I'm not sure I'd want to write charger for it..20:40
kerioShadowJK: what? we can't make the battery explode?20:40
luke-jrStskeeps: I know the former Archos lead developer... can't say I'd be surprised :/20:41
kerioand this is supposed to be an "open" phone?20:41
mikki-kunluke-jr: what is a "blob charger"?20:41
mikki-kunarghs, sorry20:41
luke-jrkerio: it's not, it's supposed to be a "Linux" phone AFAIK20:41
mikki-kunoverlooked that short answer kinda >.<20:41
kerioit definetely runs on linux20:41
luke-jrkerio: I question that20:41
kerioluke-jr: uname20:42
luke-jrat least for N8x0, Linux proper never has booted on them20:42
luke-jrNokia is getting better in that area though20:42
luke-jrso not worth fighting over20:42
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luke-jrkerio: it's a kernel derived from Linux20:42
Meceluke-jr, so... you're saying that if I buy myself a, lets say HTC HD2, the stuff handling the charging is open source?20:42
mikki-kunluke-jr: par defintion it is the linux-kernel from what i see20:43
luke-jrMece: if it has a working Linux OS at all20:43
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: you've noticed my question to you?20:43
ShadowJKkerio: Well we don't have specs on the battery (and people shove random ebay batteries into their devices anyway), but every similar battery's datasheet I've read have been safety tested to not explode, vent or deform at the maximum amount of evil we could do by abusing the charger chip20:43
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: noting20:43
luke-jrmikki-kun: per definition, the Linux kernel is from :)20:43
mikki-kunluke-jr: actually it is from linus torvalds =p20:43
StskeepsDocScrutinizer: nothing will happen in july at least, vacations etc20:43
jacekowskithat dsme watchdog thingy20:43
jacekowskidoes it work like a proper watchdog20:43
Stskeepsnow it does20:44
jacekowskior does it only check if app is running?20:44
luke-jrmikki-kun: my point is that Linus Torvalds has never released a kernel capable of running N8x0 or N900 to date20:44
keriojacekowski: you mean, barking at enemies?20:44
ShadowJKkerio: however, we could probably make a battery useless in a few months20:44
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kerioShadowJK: still not enough :|20:44
jacekowskii mean kill -SIGSTOP `pidof bme-RX-51`20:44
mikki-kunhm... sure he is responsible for the kernel which was used... he wrote the core of it... and i think that core is still in it20:44
kerioi want the phone to *explode* in a nuclear mushroom20:44
jacekowskinot bme20:44
luke-jrmikki-kun: fork of Linux != Linux20:44
kerioso i can use it as a frag grenade20:45
mikki-kunkerio: won't frag much though...20:45
luke-jrmikki-kun: N8x0 owners are seeing the practical differences now20:45
Meceluke-jr, ok.. so if only the NITs have proprietary charging software, what device doesn't have?20:45
luke-jrMece: I know my Zaurus SL-C760 doesn't20:45
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: don't get your question - if it even was a question20:45
ShadowJKkerio: even with N8x0 it'd take hours to reach criticality, and it'd be highly unpredictable ;D20:45
mikki-kunluke-jr: can i read that somewhere?20:45
luke-jrMece: it had a ton of blobs originally, but charging wasn't one of them20:45
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: how clever is that watchdog in dsme20:45
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: 47320:46
luke-jrmikki-kun: it is manifest in the impracticality to use any current OS on N8x0 devices20:46
kerioShadowJK: apt-get install linux-frag-grenade20:46
jacekowskithat's different20:46
jacekowskiit's ussualy 4220:46
luke-jrmikki-kun: here's a summary of the porting Linux to N8x0:
Stskeepsluke-jr: saw my 2.6.35rc3 patches before i went on vacatiojn?20:46
mikki-kunluke-jr: will read that one20:46
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: that's jr cleverness scale20:46
luke-jrStskeeps: not eyt20:47
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DocScrutinizerjacekowski: dsme rates at 473 there20:47
RST38hmoo all20:47
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lcukyo RST38h \o20:47
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DocScrutinizerjacekowski: if you want to know how dsme decides to restart a process: I don't know20:48
jacekowskii was thinking about SIGSTOPping runaway processes20:48
DocScrutinizersuffices to reboot via dsme usually20:49
jacekowskiwell process would still be in process list20:49
jacekowskijust descheduled20:49
DocScrutinizerso probably dsme isn't just watching if a process terminated, but also might check if it's running correctly20:49
jacekowskiand SIGCONT would restart it20:50
Meceluke-jr, I guess I just don't know about the devices :)20:50
DocScrutinizeryes, I can do this with bme for example. But after 60s system reboots when bme is sigstopped20:50
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: then otoh bme links to some dsmelib20:51
DocScrutinizerso maybe it has dedicated 'watchdog' functions in dsme that are used by bme20:51
Meceuu gotta head. ta.20:52
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keriois there an easy way to install meego on the n900 as of now?20:53
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luke-jrkerio: yes, but I doubt it's usable20:54
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keriomeh, i just want to try it20:54
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jo-erlendthere is a miniapplication called tsomething like "conversations". it shows me sms. it displays 43 (483). what does that mean?20:55
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mirr0rit means 43 different contacts20:56
mirr0rand a total of 483 messages20:56
_llll_yeah, whoever decided that was sensible thing to show?20:57
_llll_why not just "unread"?20:57
mirr0ryou will see the new messages appear in the widget instantly20:58
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keriois there documentation for bootmenu-n900 somewhere?20:58
mirr0ryea, google20:59
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jo-erlendah. thanks.20:59
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jacekowski.text:0000D0F4                 MOV     R2, #0x1021:06
jacekowski.text:0000D108                 ADD     R2, R2, #0x4F021:06
jacekowskigcc created that sort of code21:06
lcukright jacekowski did you enable any sort of optimisation flags?21:07
jacekowskithat's BME21:07
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lcukno, thats batman21:07
jacekowskiwell, that r2 value was used21:09
jacekowskibut i'm sort of surprised by gcc just using add instead of mov21:09
jacekowskiesspecialy considering that mov is faster21:09
lcukperhaps the opcode in question can only take one 16bit constant21:09
jacekowskiall ARM opcodes are 32bit21:09
jacekowskiand it can take 0x050021:10
lcukall arm ops all the time are 32b?21:10
lcukand does a 32bit open code imply that you can use more than 16b of it for constants?21:10
lcuk(op code)21:10
jacekowskinot always21:10
RST38hlcuk: yes21:10
RST38hjacekowski: it is doing the right thing21:11
lcukRST38h, cool21:11
RST38hjacekowski: basically, it has a choice of add and orr and it is taking add21:11
lcukhow much space can be set aside for coonstants ?21:11
RST38hlcuk: 8 bits, shifted by any amount21:11
jacekowskidepends on particular instruction21:11
RST38hlcuk: Hence are two instructions21:11
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RST38hlcuk: to load a single constant that does not fit 8bit shifted21:11
lcukRST38h, ok, so - the arm 32bit opcodes can fit an 8bit constant21:12
lcukwhich cant be shifted to wherever21:12
lcukbut basically21:12
RST38hlcuk: correct21:12
RST38hwell it can be shifted21:12
RST38hbut it is still going to be 8 bits21:12
jacekowskiRST38h: in mov to register constant is bigger21:13
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RST38hi.e. 0x4F000 and 0x4F are ok but 0x14F is not21:13
RST38hjacekowski: sorry. no21:13
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RST38hBut 0x500 satisfies the 8bit rule. Could you pastebin the whole fragment? Between the mov and add?21:14
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jacekowskiand thing is that mov is faster as it can be satisfied by read from cache21:16
jacekowskiwithout read from register21:16
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RST38hjacekowski: Well it is doinf the right thing21:17
luke-jrjacekowski: would you like my ARM decompiling tools? :P21:17
RST38hjacekowski: MOV is not faster than add21:17
RST38hsame on arm21:17
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ajf_hello, im trying to use mutt in a screen session over ssh in the terminal on my n900, pressing the return button it says key not bound21:18
jacekowskitimewise it's not21:18
ajf_but it works anywhere else, noticed similar behavior in vi command mode21:18
jacekowskibut things like that break out of order executions21:18
ajf_something to do with newlines?21:18
jacekowskibecause it's creating dependencies where it's not required21:18
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luke-jrajf_: more likely, it is a keypad Enter21:19
luke-jrajf_: see if it works on a normal kb with that key21:19
ArkenoiSo why h264 high profile 480p is too much for n900? Is h264 generally more cpu consuming than other codecs?21:20
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luke-jrArkenoi: heck yes21:20
luke-jrArkenoi: even my desktop PC can't handle h264 unless I tweak it21:20
luke-jrbut then, it's not usually 480p either21:21
Arkenoithen what's the point of using it, why is it so popular? I do not see big compression or picture quality advantage there.21:21
ajf_a normal keyboard (not sure what else that would be) on the n900 or my fedora laptop? that works fine21:21
luke-jrajf_: a keyboard with two Enter keys21:21
luke-jrajf_: try both of them on it21:21
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ShadowJKhigh profile is like 30% gain over baseline profile iirc21:24
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ArkenoiShadowJK, compression gain?21:26
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RST38hjacekowski: timewise, mov and add take exactly the same the way they are used in your fragment21:29
RST38hjacekowski: the only situation where you would get a stall is if you shift by a register R and that register R has been modified by the previous instruction21:29
* DocScrutinizer wonders why the hell Nokia decided to have KP-Enter instead of return on return key of hw-kbd21:29
RST38hDoc: because they are evil21:30
lcukDocScrutinizer, because n8x0 and 770 use proper return in their DPAD centre21:30
lcuki believe anyway21:31
RST38hYes, FJC indeed21:31
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DocScrutinizerAnd what exactly where the muy importante aps that would break if we fix that shit NOW?21:32
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RST38hAll the command line apps produced by Nokia? =)21:33
DocScrutinizerdidn't know there are any21:33
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* RST38h wonders if he should order the laptop today or wait until tomorrow, when he can do it through a US based proxy21:37
Venemohi all21:37
FlyserRST38h: are you talking about a http proxy or a real person?21:38
RST38hhttp of course21:38
RST38hwhy would I need a real person?21:38
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Flyserto order a laptop that is not available outside of the US21:39
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luke-jrFlyser: I've never seen that21:40
jacekowskihmmmm, it looks like i've got not up to date header files21:40
luke-jrit's always other countries that require you be local to order21:40
jacekowskias i'm missing couple states21:40
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Flyseractually I want to order a specific model that is US-only. there seems to be no way to order it here in germany21:40
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luke-jrwell, Germany sucks. so I can't say I'm surprised21:41
luke-jranywhere else, I imagine you could just order from a US retailer online and have it shipped to you21:41
Flyserhow does germany suck? and how is that related to notebooks?21:41
luke-jrFlyser: many many ways21:41
luke-jrFlyser: but then, if I discuss it with you, you might be liable for talking about it!21:41
FlyserI doubt21:42
b-manwoot!! i got a minimal debian sid system running on my N90021:43
luke-jrFlyser: I seem to recall a recent article about some old guy getting arrested for having a recording of Hitler as his ringtone21:43
luke-jrFlyser: not to mention the mandatory brainwashing21:43
DocScrutinizer51I agree Germany sucks - it's too obediant to USA insane demands21:43
Flyserwhat do you mean by "mandatory brainwashing"21:44
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luke-jrFlyser: you probably call it "schools"21:44
Flyserso how did my school brainwash me?21:44
VenemoIs there anyone here from the Hildon-Extras project?21:45
luke-jrFlyser: that's what "schools" do21:45
Flyseroh so your point is that schools shouldn't be mandatory21:45
luke-jrFlyser: nor norm21:45
DocScrutinizer51yeah anupright US citizen insists in his right to stay uneducated like a cup of cornflakes. That's for sure evil in Germany21:45
luke-jrschools became mandatory in Germany under the Nazis ;)21:46
FlyserDocScrutinizer51: I couldn't say it any better :D21:46
Flyserso? they also introduced "mothers day"21:46
luke-jrbasically all national-run schools brainwash, not educate21:46
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Flyserso you never went to school?21:48
b-man~ping MohammadAG5121:48
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infobotpong MohammadAG5121:48
luke-jrFlyser: when I was younger, I did21:48
luke-jrI also wasted a year in college21:48
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Flyserand how did they try to brainwash you? what were the things you were told to believe, but aren't true?21:49
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DocScrutinizer51luke-jr: (brainwash) they succeed in that only with pupils that really need that kind of tratment21:49
luke-jrFlyser: true or not is irrelevant21:51
Flyserokay. so your definition of brainwashing also includes "teaching facts"?21:51
ptlpoints of view21:51
ptlare not "facts" per se21:51
luke-jr1 : a forcible indoctrination to induce someone to give up basic political, social, or religious beliefs and attitudes and to accept contrasting regimented ideas21:51
luke-jr2 : persuasion by propaganda or salesmanship21:51
DocScrutinizer51luke-jr: for a large fraction of us Europeans schools are a place to learn withstand all kind of brainwash, so we don't e.g elect G.W. Bush for even a 2nd period21:52
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luke-jrDocScrutinizer51: I'm all for USA bashing, but it could be worse-- it could be UK or Germany!21:52
crashanddiethat's enough everyone21:53
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FlyserActually I prefer 12 years of education over a few more available notebook models. You are right. That is enough ;)21:54
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luke-jreducation would teach one to learn, not just force memorization of proposed "facts"21:56
FlyserThat is what I did at school :)21:56
jacekowskiwell, there are some reforms that HAVE to be done but nobody will do it21:56
jacekowskischool should be public in a way that everybody have a chance regardless of background21:56
jacekowskibut if somebody is just stupid then GTFO21:57
crashanddieguys, ##politics21:57
jacekowskiat the moment people that are not interested at all are mixed with everybody else21:57
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jacekowskiand we pretend that everybody should get education21:58
crashanddiejacekowski: stfu, please21:58
luke-jrit's a duty of parents to educate their children. ##education for more :)21:58
crashanddieluke-jr: thanks21:58
jacekowski#pepsi, ask for more21:58
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crashanddieluke-jr: does that channel actually exist?21:58
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luke-jrcrashanddie: it does now21:58
|Rgreat phone started rebooting in loop...21:59
luke-jrcrashanddie: soemone else has it registered, but it's otherwise empty21:59
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timeless_mbpcould someone in .fi please help explain what the SubTV Starwars trooper ads are about?22:07
nas_is there any way to make full screen easydebian applications ? I mean to hide the time / status / title bar  ...22:09
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Kegetysthe what ads?22:09
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mikki-kunKegetys: advertisments22:12
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KegetysI know what an ad is22:13
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timeless_mbpthere are ads w/ storm troopers22:23
timeless_mbpthey sometimes look like your average "will work for food" homeless people22:23
timeless_mbpbut the text is in finnish, and they're wearing storm trooper uniforms22:23
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Wolfietimeless_mbp: ep1 played last weekend22:24
Wolfieyesterday, actually, iirc22:24
Wolfieperhaps they show 1-6 during the following weekends?22:24
Wolfiewell, ep2 will air next sunday, too... i see a pattern22:25
timeless_mbpyes it did22:25
timeless_mbpbut is that what the ads were for?22:25
timeless_mbpit seems like overkill22:25
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timeless_mbpthere's a different set of ads that lists the schedule for the ep1/ep2s22:25
timeless_mbpi've seen those too22:25
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Wolfietimeless_mbp: hardly overkill if they aim to sell plenty of expensive ad time22:26
Wolfieduring the films, that is22:27
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timeless_mbpw00t_: fwiw, you can just use 'timeless' if you want to credit me :)22:28
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w00t_tab completion: making my life easier since before I remember22:28
FIQsome time ago, i managed to broke the bash icon somehow. Could someone point me to the xterm.desktop file?22:30
* timeless_mbp spots a normal SWep2 ad22:30
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keriothe bash icon?22:31
FIQthe xterm one22:32
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DrGrovGood evening everyone22:34
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kerioi still can't swap my shell btw :(22:35
lcukkerio, was it you stuck with the wrong one and not able to reboot incase?22:35
lcukdid you reboot since if so?22:35
kerioyeah, i did22:35
keriothen i reflashed :322:35
FIQisn't it just editing /etc/passwd?22:36
kerioyeah, but you shouldn't do that22:36
* FIQ did it and uses bash as default shell for a long time22:36
FIQwhat could go wrong?22:36
kerioi also changed root's shell22:36
kerioso... yeah22:36
FIQ*10 mins later*22:36
keriotry rebooting!22:37
FIQ"omg, i need reflash!"22:37
kerioand post your /etc/shells if you have it22:37
FIQi've rebooted several times22:37
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FIQit was months ago22:37
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FIQcat: can't open '/etc/shells': No such file or directory22:38
FIQguess not22:38
kerioroot's shell is still /bin/sh though, right?22:38
FIQonly edited that one22:39
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kerioif i need to reflash i'm going to be *so* pissed22:45
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keriowhat checks does gainroot do?22:47
keriocan i just tell sudo to give user all commands with no password?22:48
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* D-Iivil is enjoying the insomnia :]22:50
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Macerdamn i hope some more work goes into mobilehotspot22:54
Macer:) it works but damn is it flakey22:54
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* timeless_mbp sighs23:04
timeless_mbpyou'd think the guys working on Symbian advertising Qt would know how to spell Qt23:04
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alteregoJust noticed an interesting bug23:04
* timeless_mbp sighs23:04
SpeedEvilalterego: Does it involve the complete conversion of the n900 to energy, and an approximately 10 megaton resultant blast?23:04
* timeless_mbp kicks oreilly23:04
alteregoSpeedEvil: no23:05
SpeedEvilboring then.23:05
alteregoWhen you've got a full screen app, and you go to the dashboard/task-switcher, the top of the application isn't viewable, because it incorrectly replaces the status bar that isn't there with the window title.23:05
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kerioeven worse is that xchat doesn't understand clicks on *that* part of the screen when in fullscreen mode23:06
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oKtosiTeQuick question; is there a way to have popup menus appear to the left of the stylus? I find the default behaviour on my N900 quite irritating, since I'm right-handed, and menus consistently appear underneath my finger, where I obviously can not read them.23:20
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SpCombpassword change time23:23
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SpCombalmost :)23:24
Triztwhich keys did you have to press to take a screenshot of the current screen? timeless_mbp ?23:27
FIQnice load test23:27
FIQaMSN was coming up with the idea of opening like 100 windows about contact adding23:28
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FIQdunno why23:28
FIQwas forced to "killall amsn"23:28
FIQsuprised that the phone survived23:28
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Triztfound it23:29
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threshupstart: PreDepends: sysvinit-utils (>= 2.86.ds1-23) or busybox (>= but it is not going to be installed23:31
* infobot mooooooooo! I am cow, hear me moo, I weigh twice as much as you. I am cow, eating grass, methane gas comes out my ass23:31
thresham i the only one having that ?23:31
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oKtosiTeI just spoke to a friend who said the popup menus already appear under his finger on the N810. I would think something this elementary would have been fixed ages ago...23:35
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mneptoki'm a bit cinfused about whether MeeGo will be made available as a supported platform for N900 users23:36
Robot101supported? no. reference platform for developers, most likely.23:36
mneptoki'm reading conflicting reports. some so Nokia is relegating N900 users to continued use of Maemo, others say the N900 is a reference platform for MeeGo.23:36
Robot101there is no relegation, Maemo is what the N900 was sold with23:37
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mneptokwell, i got my N900 last week, and while it's a great phone, it has some major issues.23:37
oKtosiTemneptok, like?23:38
mneptokthings that it seems the average user would want to work seamlessly, and do not. e.g. syncing mail, contacts and claendars from Google.23:38
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Robot101you can use nuevasync to sync with google23:39
mneptokMfE will only sync my calendar. otherwise the process just times out. an initial contact sync worked, now it utterly fails.23:39
Robot101or syncevo, if google offers syncml?23:39
Robot101the MfE stuff is only very marginally compatible with google23:39
mneptokNuevaSync is a commercial, pay-for product, no?23:40
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mneptokan Android phone will do this without me having to shell out extra money above and beyond the handset cost23:40
LuciusMareHi, where are the file (picture) thumbnails stored?23:40
Robot101take your N900 back and enjoy life then :)23:41
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Robot101maemo is not unsupported23:41
Robot101we have quite a lot of people working on it with nokia still23:41
mneptoki think that's hardly the answer Nokia would want to give customers.23:41
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Robot101well, I'm not Nokia - if I was I wouldn't have wasted the past 18+ months rewriting huge chunks of the platform with subtly different technology while the market moved on around me :P23:42
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Robot101anyway I believe you can make google sync work using syncml for contacts23:43
Robot101which is free23:43
kerioRobot101: yeah23:44
keriothat's what MfE does23:44
Robot101no it's not, MfE is Microsoft's proprietary ActiveSync protocol23:44
keriooh right23:44
Robot101Google and MfE's implementations are pretty untested against each other and compatibility is quite marginal/unreliable23:45
kerioyou need a syncml-through-http client though23:45
keriothere's one in the repos23:45
mneptokGoogle's SyncML instructions only reference Symbian for N-series phones.23:45
Robot101you can install SyncEvolution on the N900 and use SyncML very reliably23:45
kerioyeah, that one23:45
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Robot101mneptok: SyncEvo is 3rd-party23:45
Robot101but I use it, it works really wekk23:45
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mneptokso is Nokia actually selling a hpne that will use MeeGo in any supported sense?23:46
mneptok(damn these mitts)23:47
kerioRobot101: does it sync IM informations?23:47
jacekowskinot at the moment23:47
kerioand do they work afterwards?23:47
Robot101kerio: no, it demerges contacts, because the contacts team didn't listen to me... :P23:47
jacekowskibut they will release meego device soon23:47
oKtosiTeRobot101, thanks for the heads up, will give that a go myself.23:47
kerioRobot101: wtf23:48
kerioit's unusable then23:48
Robot101kerio: only if they change23:48
Robot101kerio: and I have a contacts merger button23:48
kerioi have too23:48
mneptokso a month after the first release of MeeGo is made public i buy Nokia's flagship smartphone, but it won't actually ever run MeeGo23:48
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Robot101I'm trying to convince one of our guys to fix the sync stuff23:48
keriomneptok: yup23:48
mneptokthat's incredibly poor form, IMO23:48
kerioRobot101: wait, you work for nokia?23:48
Robot101kerio: Collabora, subcontractor23:49
Robot101kerio: the guy who sits behind me wrote the contact merger23:49
keriotell the contact team they made a crappy job23:49
kerioand tell barisione i want to suck his dick23:50
Stskeepsoi, behave23:50
kerio(you know, metaphorically)23:50
mneptokRobot101: to get SyncEvo do i have to enable a new repo, or .... ?23:50
Robot101kerio: well, barisione was on the contacts team too, but it wasn't all us, so we can take the credit for the good parts and blame others for the faults :D23:50
mneptoknm, found the wiki page23:51
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Robot101but in this case, i specifically told them only to make backreferences from the master contacts to the IM contacts as an optimisation/cache, and not to rely on them23:51
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Robot101and someone who joined the team later changed it23:52
* lcuk likes the merger and all the hard optimisations barisione and the guys have been doing23:52
Robot101yeah the merger is <323:52
lcukits a shame the ops in here arent as attentive23:52
mneptokyou know, syncing contacts, calendars and mail from Google is like *basic* functionality for a smartphone in 2010. the fact that it is labyrinthine to the point of being impossible on Nokia's best smartphone offering is indefensible.23:53
alteregoThe lack of information on the Navilinik GPS in the N900 is outstanding ..23:53
alteregoI just want to know how many channels it has :(23:53
Stskeepsalterego: it sits behind the cellmo23:53
alteregoYeah, I know that (which is f*cking strange)23:53
Robot101mneptok: look, seriously. our job is not to defend Nokia's decisions. this is a community working with what there is, and you have that. so if you don't like it, find another group of people to bitch about Nokia with.23:53
alteregoThough I imagine it means that Nokia can control our GPS' without us knowing :P23:53
Robot101mneptok: people here will help you but not if you're just consistently hostile and have nothing more productive to say other than, Nokia should know better.23:54
Robot101yes, maybe they should, but nobody here can do more about it than they already are, nor speak for Nokia with any more authority than you.23:54
kerioRobot101: well, to be fair, Nokia *should* know better23:54
mneptokRobot101: i'm not being hostile. i'm giving my feedback as an average user (not a mobile dev).23:54
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Robot101MeeGo might well work on the N900, but if you made 10s of products a year, would /you/ commit to supporting all new platforms on all old devices? the next Nokia MeeGo device is not going to be 100% MeeGo either, so how many do you want them to port and test and certify MeeGo with exactly?23:55
Robot101note, it costs /at least/ hundreds of thousands to test and certify a handset with its software stack23:55
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kerioRobot101: well, releasing a full source code would certainly help the community23:56
Robot101it could easily be more money than they made selling N900s yet23:56
Robot101kerio: and is also very very expensive23:56
kerio100 developers < 100000 developers23:56
mneptokRobot101: i would expect that Nokia would choose to support MeeGo on the flagship device they are shipping at the time of the 1.0 release.23:56
Robot101mneptok: handsets take longer than that to develop23:56
StskeepsRobot101: about certification.. i wonder if meego could do something like a certification on 1.1, which people can base their own certifications off23:56
StskeepsRobot101: not sure how it works23:56
Robot101the next platform is "MeeGo-Harmattan" which is closer to Maemo 6 than MeeGo23:56
Robot101MeeGo announcements so far are about an open source (ish) project23:57
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Robot101not a commercial phone platform23:57
Robot101wait for the device announcements if you want that23:57
Robot101and, sorry for snapping at you, but I'm getting a bit fed up with people giving such unmitigated shit to Nokia23:58
Robot101(not just you)23:58
mneptokwell, IMO this is mitigated sh*t ;)23:59
Robot101I run a company dealing with a lot of the commercial realities of open source, lawyers, contracts, etc etc23:59
jacekowskikerio: full source is not going to help a lot23:59
Robot101and I have /some/ appreciation of the forces that Nokia is underh ere23:59
jacekowskikerio: only 1% of total users will ever bother to write a line of code23:59
Robot101but there is a group of people that would rant and moan at Nokia for not open sourcing and announcing their platform early enough etc23:59
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