IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2010-06-09

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jacekowskican anybody send me a copy of n8x0 bme?00:01
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meceDuckboot == phellarv? OIC.00:03
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GAN900DocScrutinizer, ping?00:05
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Duckbootmece: Correct00:09
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mecegood to know :D00:09
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luke-jrjacekowski: no00:10
luke-jrjacekowski: also, N800 and N810 have different BMEs00:10
jacekowskii know that00:11
luke-jrin any case, nobody can legally send you a copy00:11
jacekowskithat's why i'm asking for it00:11
jacekowskiand i don't care about legally00:11
luke-jryou own a device?00:11
luke-jrjust get it from Nokia, legally00:12
jacekowskii own n90000:12
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wazdjoppu: around? :)00:13
SpeedEvilbme is _utterly_ different AIUI00:13
luke-jrjacekowski: then I guess it's up to you to make the case that infringement on Nokia's BME copyright has no damages00:13
* luke-jr ponders00:14
Wolfiea community driven app store would be great, as long as the whole community _doesn't_ have a say on how stuff works00:14
luke-jron another hand, I'm not aware of any reason I couldn't share my N810's MAC address either00:14
luke-jrbut I don't really want Nokia to block me from their downloads00:14
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Wolfiebut that's only my 0.02e00:14
luke-jrWolfie: why?00:15
_llll_isnt that what extras is for Wolfie ?00:15
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Wolfieluke-jr: design by committee isn't one of the most acclaimed ways to do things, don't you agree00:15
Wolfiethe bikeshed problem, etc...00:15
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luke-jrWolfie: so everyone makes branches and some central developer(s) decide what to merge00:15
Wolfieluke-jr: um... are we talking about the same thing?00:16
luke-jrif someone doesn't like it, they fork00:16
Wolfieor have I just misunderstood it00:16
Wolfiei'm talking about this
luke-jror do you mean the vetting process?00:16
jacekowskiforks are painfull00:17
Wolfiesorry for being a 15mins late ;)00:17
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jacekowskipeople tends to create lots of them00:17
jacekowskieach with different features00:17
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jacekowskiand incompatible00:17
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jacekowskiso you don't get one full program00:17
pupnikarthur "two sheds" jackson00:17
jacekowskiyou get pieces00:17
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Duckbootjacekowski: merging them are more painful.00:17
SpeedEvilThen you gegt sporks.00:17
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Duckbootsvn merge = spork?00:18
luke-jrsvn merge is very good nowadays00:18
DuckbootUnknown command: 'spoon'00:19
jacekowski/usr/lib/ ? that's for alarms?00:19
SpeedEvilcalendar, I thought?00:20
luke-jrlibcal reads/writes the private settings area00:20
luke-jrlike password, MAC address, etc00:20
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SpeedEvilI've just been trying to document the hw though. ah00:20
jacekowskiwell, it was looking like that00:21
jacekowskibut i found piece of code that was using cal_ calls to do allarms00:21
Duckbootjacekowski: Probably treats alarms like calendar entries with a notification.00:22
jacekowskii suppose nobody knows what's under BME-PMM-BLOCK01?00:25
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Duckbootjacekowski: Hmm - If I'm not on the wrong field - The alarm is a special kind of Calendar entry type "alarm".00:26
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DuckbootLong time since I coded C.00:28
tremnite all, sweet dreams00:29
DuckbootBah - Gotta hang some clothes for drying00:29
MohammadAG51your app just pulled in a troutload of dependencies00:30
MohammadAG51don't do it again, please00:30
* noobmonk3y grins00:30
MohammadAG51python 4.7.300:30
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joppuwazd: sure00:31
wazdjoppu: hey there :)00:32
crashanddiefind what's wrong with this comment:
joppuso what's up?00:32
crashanddie"It's not a crime, it's a crime"00:32
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wazdjoppu: have you discovered anything bout strange fields in theme template, 4 big squares on the right to the accept/reject buttons00:33
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wazdjoppu: they appeared in 1.2 template00:33
ManoftheSeaHow to link gpg to the email client, so I can send encrypted mail?00:34
joppubut the 6 or so boxes in one of the vkeyboard areas are the new virtual keyboard buttons00:34
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joppuare they email widged backgrounds?00:35
wazdjoppu: maybe they're e-mail widget backgrounds but I doubt it, sice it's still skinned with marina made for pre 1.200:37
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joppuI bet it's the email widget, I think I read a changelog on gitorious00:38
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lbthow do I do a screenshot on the N90000:39
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lbtaha... now, how do I do a portrait one? over ssh I guess... but I can't find a command)00:40
crashanddieMohammadAG51: around?00:43
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MohammadAG51crashanddie, no00:44
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pigeonhmm, that n900 dual sim thing sure is weird...00:45
MohammadAG51crashanddie, sup?00:45
crashanddieMohammadAG51: PM00:45
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jacekowskiany info on /sys/devices/platform/musb_hdrc/suspend content?00:47
[[[paul]]]lbt: i think cpu meter applet has a delayed screenshot function, you can press it and then have 20 seconds to get phone into portrait and press the camera key to take the screenshot00:48
lbt[paul]: OK, I'll look at that ... ta00:48
jacekowskiyou can take screenshot with some weird keyboard shortcut00:48
[[[paul]]]but not in portrait, because keyboard is closed :)00:49
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DrGrovHow can I find this theme?
[[[paul]]]lbt: specifically it is "load-applet" package00:51
[[[paul]]]just tried and it took portrait screenshot with success :)00:51
DrGrovI don't seem to find it in the repos even though I've looked throughly...00:52
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pigeonDrGrov: it's in extra-devel and extra-testing00:54
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Duckbootjacekowski: musb_hdrc/suspend - Dunno really - But seems to have something to do with OTG and sending suspend signals to OTG-devices?00:54
DocScrutinizer[paul]: (not in portrait) you need really skinny fingers ;-P00:55
lbtyeah... and it does it itself in C/gtk by gdk_pixbuf_get_from_drawable(root_window) ... so no simple call to a dbus service. And the key combo doesn't show up on dbus-monitor either00:56
DocScrutinizerfsck your nick, \[\[\[paul\]\]\]00:56
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DocScrutinizernobody will care to talk to you00:57
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wazdjoppu: interesting :)00:58
joppuoh nice, someone went ahead to rape my work01:00
* infobot gives[paul] a good seeing to01:01
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lbtjoppu: that would be called "open source"... not "rape" :)01:01
joppuDid I release my work under permissive lisence?01:02
lbtis it on Extras-devel?01:02
DocScrutinizeryeah I know it's *my* client01:02
lbtDocScrutinizer: mine too01:02
DocScrutinizerstill such nickname is a brainfuck01:03
lbtjoppu: seriously... is it not a permissive license? If not you must remove it from Extras-devel and it would be polite to tell fms before he spends more time on it.01:04
joppuhe could still have, like, asked before doing such a thing01:04
lbtwell :)01:04
joppuyou can't apply software lisences to artwork really01:04
lbthe's renamed it and credited the original from what I see ...01:04
orospakrHi! I'm looking for the procedure for building Maemo 5 for the N900 from source (and possibly dropping the proprietary components back in as required, GLES drivers etc.).  I'm thinking of buying the Nokia N900 hardware, but being able to "make world" would be really useful.01:05
lbtMaemo is a place where we build on each others work...01:05
joppuAnd I didn't release it under creative commons, did I?01:05
orospakrI've been browsing the project wiki and haven't really found what I'm looking for yet.01:05
lbtdunno... I just asked you01:05
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lbtorospakr: see MeeGo N90001:05
orospakrlbt, hmm, MeeGo, as I understand it, is rather different from Maemo.01:06
lbtit is...01:06
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lbtbut realistically your goal is not do-able01:06
lbtit is very much what Mer wanted to do01:06
joppuIf he is such a wizard with themes, he could probably make his own from scratch rather that basing it off other people's work01:07
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joppuI'm only bitching about this because you don't do stuff like this behind my back01:07
lbtjoppu: in the OSS world we tend to support and assist each other... building off your work is a compliment01:07
DocScrutinizerlbt: he wants a 'hello world'01:08
DocScrutinizerlbt: even custom kernels are feasible01:08
lbtDocScrutinizer: "make world" :)01:08
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lbtie a bare-metal build of Fremantle01:08
lbtI got a fair way towards that on the OBS01:08
lbtby grabbing all the released source01:08
lbtbut never got as far as installing it anywhere01:09
lbtand frankly unless it's a "just because" project01:09
lbtit would be much more productive to do MeeGo ARM01:09
joppuand why the heck is the package credited under my name? It's not like I'd use such crappy colors for theme components...01:09
joppuSomeone might get the wrong idea01:09
joppuas if it's like supported by me01:10
DocScrutinizerlbt: ack01:10
ShadowJKorospakr, Maemo 5 isn't entirely open source. Also I don't think we know how Nokia does "make world". Maybe they just build every package, in the SDK, manually? :P01:10
orospakrjoppu, lbt is right. that's why Free Software is useful.  Stuff doesn't work the way you want it to? Change it. And that process repeats so ad infinitum.  Someone spending their time to improve something you made really is a complement.01:10
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orospakrlbt, meego isn't really as interesting to me. not really keen on RPM and the MeeGo UI.  Maemo is much more interesting.  And it *is* ostensibly Free Software...01:11
orospakrjoppu, that said, people should honour the license that people put on things they release.01:11
lbtorospakr: sure... like I said... if you want to contribute to "the future" then MeeGo ... if you want to do your own thing then Maemo ;)01:11
lbt(and I'm sitting here on Debian)01:12
lbtnot liking the whole rpm/spec thing01:12
lbtbut doing it anyway :)01:12
orospakrlbt, well, "the future" is just a proposal.  if there's code out there now that does what I want, then I should probably use and work on that.01:13
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lbtsure... just pointing out that you're not the first... I spent 6 months of my life 12hrsx7 working on exactly that.01:13
DocScrutinizerorospakr: and aiui a lot of the closed-source binaries/blobs can't be 'just installed', they come with the image01:14
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orospakrDocScrutinizer, huh.  What do the percentage figures mean?01:14
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DocScrutinizerlines of code? dunno, see footnote01:14
lbtorospakr: what it means is that you'll need to replace huge swathes of maemo closed stuff to get anywhere01:15
orospakrin a word, fail.01:15
orospakrthat is too bad. :(01:15
lbtheh... not even close to a fail01:15
joppumore like a disgrace. do I really need to stamp a huge cc-nd lisence to stop people from stealing my work?01:15
lbtwork like that encouraged a completely different % breakdown in MeeGo01:16
lbtjoppu: yes01:16
lbtaround here we share by default01:16
lbtsorry but that's how we are01:16
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orospakrjoppu, sadly, I wouldn't use such a theme.01:17
lbtjoppu: frankly if I was fms I'd be pissed off at you01:17
* microlith watches trackerd go high cpu usage while on battery01:17
lbtfor not making it clear that you were not sharing and his work is going to be wasted01:17
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lbtclearly he's not here joppu so go and say something on that pmo post if you want anything done about it. It's just a shame you feel that way. :)01:19
microlithjoppu: horrible thieves. You should file a lawsuit01:19
DocScrutinizerorospakr: develop for (CAL area, etc).. Those abilities are hard to quantify. Looks bad on paper in numbers, but great if you look into it. (Carsten Munk)01:19
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joppubut serously, you can't apply software lisences to artwork. I'd be happy if someone would fix up my messy non-optimized code, but messing with someones artistic view is a whole different thing01:21
DocScrutinizerCC isn't about software01:22
* noobmonk3y is cream crackered01:22
noobmonk3ynights alls :) :)01:22
orospakrDocScrutinizer, perhaps.  The Radio interface stuff being nonfree is one of the more problematic pieces, I think.01:22
DocScrutinizerhmm, sometimes01:22
orospakrjoppu, how so? both CC and free software licenses make specific provision for preserving the integrity of the original work; the person who modified it can't pass of their changes as yours.01:23
DocScrutinizerthough you got pnatd to talk AT to the modem01:23
infobotorospakr meant: joppu, how so? both CC and free sofftware licenses make specific provision for preserving the integrity of the original work; the person who modified it can't pass of their changes as yours.01:23
orospakrer, heh. nevermind my broken regex.01:23
DuckbootUpdated the "Appstore"-thread - - Discuss.01:23
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joppuI just sent today a full svg template of one of my themes to a person because he asked nicely01:24
orospakroh god, App Stores are the worst distribution antipattern since the invention of "setup.exe".01:24
orospakrapt-get and repository please, thanks.01:24
joppuBut you don't do this under by damn back01:24
Duckbootorospakr: Well - for you and me and some others that is the best way, but not for the casual user.01:25
orospakrjoppu, er.  If I had to contact the original author for permission to modify some component out there in the community, no work could get done.01:25
orospakranyway, if you don't want to contribute to a community, then don't.01:26
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orospakrDuckboot, that's just a matter of UI.  In some senses an App Store and a repository are the same idea. Just that the non-free section might have a payment interface in front of it.01:26
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asjif you made a community app store you would have to call it like "window" in finish, or NotATurd in finish...01:27
Duckbootorospakr: Yes - Correct, and the casual user wants that easy-access UI.01:27
orospakrDuckboot, :)01:27
orospakrI believe Maemo already has that part.  I very much like the definite process for submitting community packages.01:28
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Duckbootorospakr: Me too, but we're getting a smaller and smaller community. I was bitching like hell when the internet got commercial, and not some special thing for researchers and student in universities - But then I saw the benefits in the sheer growth01:30
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orospakrbeing commercial is not an inherently bad thing -- code for money is great. artificial barriers, however, are not. free software doesn't preclude getting paid for the work.01:31
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Duckbootorospakr: I agree again, but there are no good solutions for making money out of free software atm (imho).01:33
orospakrhuh? I disagree.  Lots of people are paid to work on free software. customers just want to spend money to make stuff work.01:33
Duckbootorospakr: A business model is of course getting paid for upgrades and service plans, but that do not aply to Cellphones and Netbooks.01:34
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DuckbootI work in a company which is based on free software, but those models are not easily transferred to end-user apps and shiny things01:35
joppuI find it rather ironic how fms likes to release his emulators as closed source binary blobs...01:36
jacekowskihave anybody tried if alarms work on switched off phone01:36
DuckbootMass consumer markets are more like "Fire and forget".01:36
jacekowski( as they used to on old 5110 and 3210 )01:36
orospakrDuckboot, which, by the way, is one of the biggest issues I have with the so-called "consumer" market.01:36
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jacekowskiorospakr: but free spftware means that lot of code that just shouldn't see light of the day is used by millions of people01:37
orospakrjacekowski, huh?01:37
jacekowskiorospakr: i found very interesting thing in BME couple days ago01:37
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Duckbootorospakr: Well - I do not believe I can change the people (I'm old and disillusioned).01:38
Duckbootorospakr: Your average joe is stupid, and just wants something new and shiny for his phone.01:38
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lbtDuckboot: more "ignorant" (and often "selfish") than stupid01:40
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* orospakr is taking account of the list of proprietary components. Seems like (GL driver aside, gave up on those years ago), a free build of Maemo 5 would lack the stock browser, contacts (I don't even see why that piece is non-free. Don't they use Telepathy?), all of the network UI, cellular/3G support (RIL missing), some small bits of nokia value-add (osso backup, facebook, whatever), some status bar plugins, the theme artwork.01:40
lbtyou need a fair amount of insight to really get why OSS and open standards and stuff are good for society as a whole01:40
lbtorospakr: and would be called "Mer"01:41
pexior losing a game of monopoly01:42
orospakrHere's the thing; I wouldn't mind running a few proprietary bits, but I want to choose to use them specifically.  Take CyanogenMod for Android; it's a custom build of the Android Open Source trees. The few proprietary components that are important are dragged in by a shell script.01:42
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lbtorospakr: uh huh... and we (Mer) got permission from Nokia to do that...01:42
Duckbootlbt: Ignorant is the most describing word, yes.01:42
orospakrlbt, neat. darn shame that meego seems to have killed it. :(01:43
lbtDuckboot: and don't forget... in a nice way01:43
Duckbootlbt: Ofc ;-P01:43
Duckbootlbt: I would not dare to be an elitist.01:43
lbtorospakr: Meego didn't kill it.... Mer (we like to think) helped Nokia see the light with MeeGo01:43
lbtDuckboot: yeah... that survives until you meet the morons in person ;)01:44
Duckbootlbt: Hahaha01:44
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orospakrDid Mer ever merge freemantle and touch the N900?01:44
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lbtorospakr: yup... and Nokia hired me and Stskeeps. He's working on the MeeGo on N900 and I'm working on build systems01:46
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Duckbootlbt: Then make sure crosscompiling to Maemoe is easypeasy then ;-P01:47
Duckboots/Maemoe/Maemo - Damn - I'm getting tired01:47
lbtDuckboot: the community OBS will be able to target MeeGo and Fremantle with the same tarball... good enough?01:48
orospakrlbt, okay. maybe a more meaningful question for me to ask is where MeeGo's UI stuff will go.  I quite like what I've seen of Maemo's UI.  Moblin seems to be little more than a web-tablet.01:48
Duckbootlbt: It's a start.01:48
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lbtorospakr: that's because meego as released is moblin based... you haven't seen the handheld UI yet01:48
lbtwhich will be derived from Maemo/Qt01:48
orospakraha! that sounds more promising.01:48
Duckbootlbt: You've seen it?01:49
lbtjust open discussion including last TSG01:49
orospakrlbt, where is the git repository?01:49
lbtorospakr: google... but gitorious and see wiki.meego.com01:49
lbtorospakr: frankly it's still a mess01:49
orospakrfair enough!01:50
DocScrutinizerjavispedro for president01:50
lbtbut I continue to believe that is because many of those involved don't really know how to be open01:50
lbtbut they're trying01:50
DuckbootDocScrutinizer: Hmm?01:50
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orospakrlbt, actually sounds rather promising. :)01:53
lbtorospakr: glad you think so....01:54
lbtit's been frustrating but we're getting somewhere01:54
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orospakrlbt, question is, to what degree will hardware manufacturers use MeeGo as a base to build entirely locked down environments shot through with non-free gunk? I guess time will tell on that one. :)01:56
lbtit's a worry01:56
orospakras long as MeeGo stands well on its own, that hopefully will be minimized a bit.01:57
lbtand the aegis security framework brings even more control01:57
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lbttied in with TPM01:57
lbtbut... it's an open-source TPM01:57
flailingmonkeymmm, the sweet poison01:58
orospakrsounds interesting!01:58
orospakrhm, drilling down into the repository list on gitorious is proving tricky.01:58
lbtit is ....
orospakrhm, much potential for evil there.01:59
orospakrthe answer there really is to buy devices from manufacturers directly, and not let the telco be the customer.02:00
flailingmonkeyindeed, but that can't compete with the subsidies02:00
DuckbootBlargh - My ISP has DNS-problems - time to go to bed then. Nighty night.02:01
toresbeDuckboot: ngt, you too? :)02:02
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lbtwhat price freedom?02:03
toresbewell, that saved me a router reboot.02:03
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orospakrlbt, seems like doc on this is sketchy right now. how does the MeeGo build system work? Can you give me the quick introduction?02:08
orospakraha, missed those somehow.02:09
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lbtnp they're newish and not cross-linked too well yet02:10
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orospakrso, the OpenSUSE build service. eeeenteresting.  can it be used without a web browser?02:13
lbtoh yes02:13
lbtyou can still follow the tutorial for the Mer/Build02:14
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lbtworth doing02:14
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orospakrIt seems like there will ultimately be a single instance of OBS that people in the community will generally use, although there's nothing to preclude one from spinning up their own.  Much like any other distro, I suppose!02:15
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orospakrIs "" or similar alive yet?02:15
lbtI'm building it02:15
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lbtit's mainly up02:15
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lbtit'll be invite-only to a few old-hands to get it ready over the next week02:16
orospakrlbt, wow, seems like I've popped my head in just as things are getting interesting. neat.\02:16
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lbtyup.... we're seeing quite a lot of activity at the moment... new future for Maemo, more open, more toys... can't be bad02:17
orospakrsounds good!02:17
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lbt*nod* .... see why I said about meego now :)02:19
flailingmonkeyalso more griefers02:19
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orospakrincidentally... I happen to have a prerelease device here with a working Linux port, intended for Android.  Manuf. wants to get different things running on it at some point.  I wonder when I should start looking into bringing up a MeeGo image on it.02:19
orospakrI wonder how device ports are going to work from a build perspective.02:19
zappaohh, I just jumped in and lbt's statements got me exicited for something but I don't know what.  I'll wait and see.02:19
orospakrs/are going to//02:20
infobotorospakr meant: I wonder how device ports  work from a build perspective.02:20
lbtorospakr: well, 2 approaches... community and official02:20
lbtcommunity... talk to me and Stskeeps02:20
lbtofficial... I'd start with Stskeeps but I can find out02:21
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orospakrlbt, ah, I see what you mean.  I'll go with community (ie., technical) for now.  This would just be me poking at things on my own time.02:22
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lbtOK, try #mer to start with and #meego02:22
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flailingmonkeyis jrbme still in planning, or has that work actually started up?02:27
SpeedEvilI think in plannign stages.02:28
luke-jrlbt: #meego-arm IIRC02:29
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pupnikflailingmonkey deserves an award for funniest nickname02:31
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pupnikmaybe a prize named *after* him?  to be awarded once a week to the t.m.o. poster who spazzes out with greatest drama?02:33
* flailingmonkey graciously accepts02:33
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flailingmonkeyGeneralAntilles has been having a nervous breakdown :-(02:34
lbtnight all02:36
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SpeedEvilI think a prize aimed at him would be funnier.02:37
* SpeedEvil gets the prize coconut.02:37
* SpeedEvil loads the trebuchet.02:38
* flailingmonkey puts on my helmet02:39
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pupnikfetcher le vache!02:40
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* flailingmonkey starts building a wooden rabbit02:41
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pupnikflailingmonkey: have you seen Monkey Drummer:
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SpeedEvilflailingmonkey: remember to varnish the wooden rabbit well.02:43
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crashanddieamazing, so many tools, and not even a philips screwdriver:
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flailingmonkeypupnik, thats awesome02:46
crashanddiepupnik & flailingmonkey: happy dreams:
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ShadowJKwtf is wrong with wiki.maemo search?02:57
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ShadowJKsurely "gps" should give some results02:58
SpeedEvilI think the word 'everything' covers it02:58
SpeedEvilN900 Hardware GPS02:58
SpeedEvilhas some pointers02:58
flailingmonkeygoogle + works03:00
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crashanddiesome people are mental03:21
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SpeedEvilInsanely awesome.03:24
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SpeedEvil even03:28
SpeedEvilyeah - I keep forgetting google makes URLs srupildy long03:29
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asjof course the guy wears suspenders03:33
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pigeonis there a status applet to show the date on the status bar?03:42
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pigeonguess not...03:52
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SpeedEvilThere is an application to replace the operator name03:55
SpeedEvilI don't know if you can add cron to that and flip it at midnight03:56
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pigeonheh yeah, i'm using that operator name thing too03:59
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thunderfestAny know off hand how tall in pixels the tile bar is in Maemo 504:08
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vldcnst45px, I believe04:11
thunderfestvldcnst, thanks04:12
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pigeondoes anyone know what is the package name for this app?
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trip900whats up with the extras devel repo in 1.2?05:47
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PolarFoxpigeon: irreco-widget ?06:15
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pigeonPolarFox: is it on your repo? it's not here with mine06:17
pigeonthere are a lot of irreco-*, but not widget06:18
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PolarFoxI think I saw it today.. my phone is... well.. somewhere.. But it might be in extras-devel still ..06:19
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Macerhow goes meefail?06:30
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Maceranybody know of any bbs software for linux that uses an ssh daemon?06:39
cehtehyou can prolly put ssh in front of any bbs system, just make it the shell for the ssh logins06:42
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asjor just make the bbs the users login shell...06:43
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ljsdofuynsdfufuhbuying a used n900 tomorrow - any tips for what to watch for?07:15
ljsdofuynsdfufuhhow do I know it is the most complete model (fm radio et al)07:16
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arachnistljsdofuynsdfufuh: there is only one model, unless you're buying it in china/hong kong, india or some other country that has awkward rules for cell phones07:19
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ljsdofuynsdfufuhnope - 'merica07:24
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cehtehthere are some cheap china plagiates which look quite similar but are in no way n900's07:26
cehtehdiffernt os, complete different features07:26
cehtehotherwise there is only one model, only the keyboard mat differs07:26
cehteh(local keys)07:26
Chiku|dcwat is the PR number for next firmware?07:26
cehtehthe rest is all software07:26
Chiku|dcPR 1.2.1 ?07:26
cehtehwill there be a next firmware? :)07:27
Chiku|dchow they will fixed bugs?07:27
cehtehdo they?07:27
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* cehteh doesnt really trust nokia :P07:28
cehtehsince the successor meego phone is on the way ...07:28
luke-jrwhich sounds like it sucks07:28
cehtehi think with 1.2 its usable now, the rest i can do by myself except the closed source bugs07:29
cehtehi still hope nokia will care for the device a little more, but i have some doubts07:29
luke-jrhistory says not07:29
cehtehanyways i can live with it as is now07:30
luke-jrhonestly, I couldn't care less for Maemo/MeeGo07:30
luke-jrbut Nokia's closedness prevents most anything else07:30
luke-jrbasically, I have no loyalty to Nokia :)07:30
luke-jrwhoever makes the best (hardware-wise and open-wise) device wins07:30
luke-jrif it turns out to be Nokia, good for them; if not, oh well07:31
cehtehonly happend to be nokia by coincidence this time .. next time it might be someone else07:31
ljsdofuynsdfufuhcehteh, what would you check before buying a used n900?07:31
ljsdofuynsdfufuhanything in terms of software?07:31
ljsdofuynsdfufuhor accessories?07:31
cehtehwhile i still expect that my device will last some yeats07:31
cehtehljsdofuynsdfufuh: dunno, except for the oblivious things, mechanically ok, scratches, dead pixels, slider07:32
cehtehthere are dead pixels sometimes even in new devices, you have to check if you can live with it07:33
ljsdofuynsdfufuhthe slider is what on the n900?07:33
cehtehbattery? .. its replaceable anyways so even if there is a almost dead or 3rd party battery it wont be a problem07:33
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cehtehthe keyboard slideout mechanics07:34
ljsdofuynsdfufuhoh, so is the bat expensive?07:34
cehteh10-20 Eur in europe, not that expensive07:34
cehteh(original, really recommended)07:34
cehtehthere are cheap $3 batteries but these have no much charge and die soon07:34
ljsdofuynsdfufuhokay, and I guess I'll just reload/upgrade the software after I purchase it anyway07:34
pupnikoriginal is around 30 in retaul07:35
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cehtehfrom nokia07:35
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cehtehbut you get original for 17Eur or so here07:35
cehtehyou should check the usb socket .. if its bended or loose then dont buy07:35
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cehtehalso the lens lid comes off on some devices, the black cap is just glued on the blue plastic part07:36
cehteheasily fixable, unless its already damaged or the tiny spring there got lost07:36
ljsdofuynsdfufuhI think I've seen n900s in diff colors and crap - it is supposed to be all black right?07:37
cehtehreally beware that you dont get a china plagiate07:37
ljsdofuynsdfufuhI guess I should be able to tell by.....07:37
cehtehsome look quite exactly the same07:37
ljsdofuynsdfufuhlike running firefox07:37
ljsdofuynsdfufuhthat shit would be hard to fake07:37
cehtehyeah the display res is way lower, usuall those have dual-sim and a very different os07:38
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ljsdofuynsdfufuhdual sim would be cool to have on it actually07:38
cehtehbut that wont be a n90007:38
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cehtehsome devices had problem with reboots07:39
cehtehbut thats rather hard to check07:39
cehtehand i think PR1.2 fixed that anyways07:40
pupnikn901 with 5" screen07:40
ljsdofuynsdfufuhah, so no model # to check for the reboot problem?07:40
cehtehthere are some hardware revisions but its not clear how they relate07:40
ljsdofuynsdfufuhI'll probably have fun reinstalling the OS anyway being a linux slut07:40
cehtehyeah you prolly want to flash the device completely to wipe any stuff out the former owner put on it07:41
cehtehmust not be locked too07:41
ljsdofuynsdfufuhi dont think n900 can be locked07:41
cehtehhas nokia a imei datatabase of stolen devices?07:41
cehtehit can07:42
ljsdofuynsdfufuhnokia didn't allow any providers to brand it07:42
cehtehlocked i mean pin for the user07:42
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cehtehnot simplock07:42
ljsdofuynsdfufuhoh, like OS password07:42
cehtehyes kindof that07:42
ljsdofuynsdfufuhwell, if i can use it then it shouldnt have it i guess07:42
cehtehafter a reboot :)07:43
cehtehdo a full boot cycle to check, insert your sim too and check if it works07:43
cehtehotherwise i think there is not really much you can do as short test07:43
pupnikgood advice07:43
cehtehthere is the healthcheck app you may install and test serveral things07:44
ljsdofuynsdfufuhI'm not going to have a sim before purchasing it07:44
ljsdofuynsdfufuhis the healthcheck app from the apt installer?07:44
cehtehcant you borrow a sim from a friend or so for a test? .. from the same carrier you intend to use?07:44
cehtehyou can check for dead pixels (by color screens), test sound, led, vibrator and such07:45
ljsdofuynsdfufuhhmm, it is possible07:45
cehtehbut its really not an exhaustive in depth test07:45
ljsdofuynsdfufuhI'm thrilled at how much more helpful you all are than the android community07:45
cehtehi admit you can hardly do an in depth test when buying it07:45
cehtehwell .. watch out for scratches on the screen, the resistive screen is a plastic foil, not glass07:46
cehtehand get a screen protector if you dont plan to be super-careful with it07:46
ljsdofuynsdfufuhyou all use those crazy shock protective cases with your n900s?07:46
cehtehi build my own :)07:47
ljsdofuynsdfufuhany pics?07:47
ljsdofuynsdfufuhdon't the screen protectors diminish touch screen effectiveness?07:47
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cehtehnot noticeable07:50
ljsdofuynsdfufuhdid your n900 come with 32gig microsd?07:50
arachnistnope, it has ~30G of usable internal storage07:51
arachnistbut usually doesn't come with a microsd07:52
cehtehthe package originally contains: usb cable, av-cable, crappy earbuds, cleaning cloth, charger, usb-charge adapter for old nokia chargers07:53
Stskeepsjoppu: all themes derived from the theme templates are CC BY SA, so yours has to be too07:54
cehtehno wrist strap, no microsd07:54
cehtehbut a used device might be equipped slightly differently07:54
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cehtehwell you should be sure the usb cabel and the charger are included at least07:54
Stskeepsjoppu: same right that gave you ability to alter and make themes has to be passed on to others07:55
cehteh(anything should be available as 3rd party)07:55
Stskeepsjoppu: go shout at rst38h for not fixing the package though07:55
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cehtehis there a pages somewhere where the available themes are previewable with screenshots?07:57
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cehtehsince the themes are rather big i dont want to install tons of them just to choose07:57
cehteh(imo themes should have their own category on HAM anyways)07:58
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Maceri installed the enhanced kernel08:05
Macerdoes it have the ability to use the conservative governor?08:06
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Macerright now it's set to ondemand08:06
Maceri thought ondemand steps up faster than conservative08:06
Macercpu goes up to 1150? :)08:07
* Macer pictures melting his n900 at 1.1GHz08:07
Maceri wouldn't mind bumping up the freq to like 85008:08
Macerthat sounds reasonable :)08:09
Macerwith a conservative governor08:09
Macerso it doesn't go straight to 850 like ondemand does08:09
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viszyou prefer melting it with 850 MHz?-)08:12
Maceryou're right08:12
Maceri should go for broke :)08:12
Macermaybe i can stick a smal fan and vent system in it08:13
visznow there's an idea =)08:13
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Maceror i can just stick it in a copper enclosure08:13
Macermake the entire phone copper minus teh screen08:13
Macerand keep it out of my pocket08:13
Macerand use the case as a heatsink while it runs at 1.1GHz08:14
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Maceractually.. for now i am just trying to figure out how to use kernel-config to change the governor08:14
Macerbut i have to find out what governors are in the enhanced kernel08:14
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Macerah. got it08:18
Maceri'm curious as to whether or not a conservative gov will work better on the battery life while providing the same performance08:18
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Macerit seems like my phone always runs at 600MHz :)08:20
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cehtehwhen playing music its at 35% 250mhz here .. i rather would like to enable the 125Mhz for that08:33
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fluxcehteh, have you tried forcing the MHz to 125 in that case?09:07
flux(by setting max frequency to 125 during playing)09:07
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cehtehflux: i have the nokia kernel still09:08
fluxwell, installing a new kernel is just an apt-get away09:08
DocScrutinizerTADAAA, found first hardware BUG in N900 :-D09:09
DocScrutinizeryou can kill SoC GPIO5509:09
fluxhm :)09:09
DocScrutinizerby applying Vbat via LP552309:09
fluxdo to tell nokia, I'm sure they'll fix it for the next hw revision 8)09:10
DocScrutinizerINT output of LP5523, when used as GPO (sw controlled), switches properties from pulldown to totem-pole09:10
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cehtehflux: i am burned .. some time ago my only/first try to do so got me the only broken kernel from t-tan :)09:11
cehtehhad to reflash then..09:11
cehtehwell i eventually will try next time when i have some spare time and be bored enough09:11
fluxcehteh, not a big deal, reflashing, though09:11
cehtehyes it is09:11
DocScrutinizerwhich means it's feeding Vbat+ to SoC GPIO55, when '1'09:11
cehtehbecause i have to restore a shitload other customizations09:12
fluxcehteh, no, if you flash just the kernel09:12
cehtehwell next time09:12
cehtehDocScrutinizer: that means you can fry the device in software?09:13
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cehtehnice one, package it09:13
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cehtehn900fry     try at your own risk09:14
DocScrutinizerbasically, though I don't expect tooooo worse thing happen when a totem-pole with Vhigh of Vbat is feeding a SoC GPIO09:14
cehtehremember the people who tried a unpatched 2.6.32 kernel which almost made their device melt?09:14
cehtehwell thats another case, but still :)09:15
Stskeepsfwiw, i did not have my device melt in .3309:15
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DocScrutinizeryou almost always can force two GPIO of two chips to output-fight each other09:15
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cehtehStskeeps: iirc some nokia patches went into .33 so that might explain that09:16
DocScrutinizers/to /two /09:16
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: you almost always can force two GPIO of two chips two output-fight each other09:16
DocScrutinizererr, scratch that s/09:16
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Stskeepsmorn wazd09:17
cehtehStskeeps: but note that the cpu voltage is controlled by the kernel itself :)09:17
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wazdStskeeps: moo :)09:18
wazdhello people :)09:18
DocScrutinizeranyway, that GPIO_55 has a pullup to VIO_1.8, and Vbat may be 4.209:18
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DocScrutinizerso I'd say, it's STRONGLY DISCOURAGED to drive LP5523 INT output under software control09:20
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DocScrutinizer51reg 0x3B, bit2 MUST be 009:24
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Lazy^Hello, how i can remove my operator-data-connection settings... it allows me delete wlan ect.. but not the operator settings..10:06
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DocScrutinizer51no (simple) way10:07
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DocScrutinizer51set AP name to some faulty value10:08
DuckbootLazy^: fAPN might help you - I'm not sure, but it's worth a try.10:08
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Lazy^Duckboot: noup, i can delete mms settings =)10:11
Lazy^from fAPN10:11
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DuckbootLazy^: Ok - Then I don't know ;-P10:13
Lazy^It's Operator GPRS settings, and i want to delete it so i can get new settings from operator10:13
DuckbootLazy^: Edit you old settings - That's atleast what I did when I changed Operator.10:13
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Lazy^Duckboot: yes i can edit it.. no prob.. but when i'm trying to determine that n900 is allowed to connect to it automatically, it's not on the list10:14
DocScrutinizer51afaik N900 can not 'receive new settings via SMS'10:14
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DuckbootDocScrutinizer51: It can - I tried it with setting my phone to Nokia E75, and getting my operator to send me an SMS with settings - It worked for me.10:15
DocScrutinizererr, mhm10:16
DocScrutinizeriirc it didn't work for me with PR1.010:17
DocScrutinizermaybe they fixed the SMS app10:17
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DocScrutinizerbut then probably it also will overwrite old settings, so still no reason to delete the connection10:18
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jacekowskiwell, doesn't n900 support multiple connections?10:22
jacekowskiand it selects them based on operator10:22
jacekowski( that's how it worked for me )10:23
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DocScrutinizer51jacekowski: that'd be nice10:26
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jacekowskiwell, i swapped sims o2/plusgsm/t-mobile and i had gprs straight away10:26
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DocScrutinizer51hmm, should better be bound to actual network the modem registerd to. You might be roaming10:29
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DocScrutinizer51anyway, I got the problem I want to use different APN settings with same carrier. Seems this isnMt supported - have to edit10:30
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Surfawhat is the scenario for not using "internet" apn?10:32
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psycho_oreosany of you tried timing how long does it take to charge up the N900 battery assuming from empty level using USB2 dedicated port?10:33
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DocScrutinizer51psycho_oreos: 3:30 with charger10:34
DocScrutinizer51maybe +1h for standard usb host PC10:34
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psycho_oreosDocScrutinizer51, thanks, might have to re-organise my schedule.. I bricked my phone for the first time on the way to work today and I'm assuming its flat due to excessive reboots during the day in a bid to hopefully see that it will still boot10:35
noobmonk3yDocScrutinizer, 3:30? 2:15 here?!10:35
DocScrutinizer51manual says 3:30 iirc10:36
noobmonk3yhmmm just checked battery eye, its between 2:15 and 2:45 on mine10:36
noobmonk3ythats from about 3% to 97% but then my device doesnt go above 97 lol10:36
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DocScrutinizer51noobmonk3y: yeah, and last 3% take another 1h10:37
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noobmonk3yhahaha :)10:38
noobmonk3ydamn that last 3% :(10:38
DocScrutinizer51no haha10:38
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DocScrutinizer51logical consequence of CC/CV charging10:39
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DocScrutinizer51const current / const voltage10:40
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DocScrutinizer51you might even say it *never* reaches 10010:43
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DocScrutinizer51so you simply have to stop charging at some point and say 'that's 100 for me now'10:44
mecehey is there a way to get the file picking dialogues and file manager to display the whole filenames?10:46
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infobotmece meant: hey is there a way to get the file picking dialogs and file manager to display the whole filenames?10:46
DocScrutinizer51maybe indicator says 'charging complete' at 97, but Nokia's figure of 3:30 is for 99.910:46
DocScrutinizer51mece: no10:47
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DocScrutinizer51which is a PITA10:47
meceDocScrutinizer51, grr argh! no kidding! Gaddammit!10:48
mecethere must be a hack.10:48
solrizeso the 900 has usb host after all?  what if i want to run a power hungry device, is the simplest way to add a powered hub?10:48
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DocScrutinizer51it's a .so lib I guess.  You might hack that10:48
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fralsmece: check -dev mailing list10:49
fralstopic was up yesterday10:49
DocScrutinizer51solrize: not yet, we're still working on it. And yes10:49
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mecefrals, hmm. I'm on that, but didn't get any mails. I think.10:50
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fralsoh nvm10:50
fralsbug #43010:50
povbotBug Show and edit filename extensions10:50
fralsmy bad :)10:50
DocScrutinizer51mece: I got me a bindmount of / to MyDocs/myroot/10:51
DocScrutinizer51another one for /home10:51
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dnaumovwhat software options do I have if I want to turn my n900 into a wlan ap?10:54
DocScrutinizer51bah, extensions - that's yet another issue where not even bindmount will help :-S10:54
dnaumovis there anything besides joikuspot?10:54
Duckbootdnaumov: There is some software called Hotspot (or something like that)10:54
Duckbootdnaumov: I didn't get it to work - but some have.10:55
mecehey, filemanager is open source!10:56
dnaumovalso I am a bit confused regarding how WifiEye works, why does it seem to require to be connected to some WLAN connection before it can tell me about all the WLAN networks in the vicinity?10:56
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meceok so would it be a difficult fix to fork and modify filepicker and filemanager to make things show up?10:59
meceerr extensions show up is what I means10:59
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* DocScrutinizer51 takes microsoft and android and beats Nokia with it down the street of Unix11:01
DocScrutinizer51aah. forgot: in PR1.3 we'll get drive letters, starting at 'C:'11:02
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plastunhello! How to get selected item when I clicked on TouchSelector?11:05
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meceok.. the removing of extensions is done in hildon-file-system-model.c11:19
mecein the function hildon_file_system_model_new_item11:20
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spyrohey guys11:22
spyroI've been doing a lot of work to bring hardware accelerated 3D to qemu11:22
spyroI almost have things working, and I can boot maemo / meego on it11:22
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DocScrutinizer51mece: patch it and share the fixed version :-D11:23
spyrobut I appear to have run into a bug that googling shows has struck the maemo community before11:23
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spyroClutterX11-WARNING **: Failed to get XImage of pixmap: 200704, removing11:23
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chem|stmoaning 211:24
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spyrohas anyone fixed this?11:24
meceDocScrutinizer51, I was thinking I'd just compile and put it on my N900 :P11:24
spyro'cos if so, I suspect  this is the last remaining bug before maemo / moblin / meego can make use of qemu + hard3D11:24
meceDocScrutinizer, could we fork this and put it in extras?11:25
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meceas a replacement..11:25
DocScrutinizer51mece: why not?11:25
meceyeah.. why not.. I have no idea how to actually do it, but it would be logical for community to make own versions of the open stuff that we don't like.11:26
spyroanyone at all?11:26
spyrodamn, I wish lcuk was about :/11:27
mecesorry spyro, wasn't paying attention.. what's that?11:27
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spyroI've been working on qemu hardware 3D accel11:27
spyromostly so meego can boot on qemu11:27
spyrobut it also affects moblin and maemo11:28
spyroI'm seeing this error from clutter now that I've fixed a number of its other 'issues'11:28
mecespyro, cool.11:28
spyroFailed to get XImage of pixmap <foo>, removing11:28
mecespyro, hmm I get lots of those in scratchbox11:28
spyroyeah for me it all works great now, but as soon as those messages appear, it loses its ability to read the window contents and it just displays garbage11:29
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chem|stany nokians here? got bug10559 reproduced somehow and you might be interested11:30
spyroIt looks like no-one cares about the software TFP fallback path, which is very sad :-(11:30
crashanddiebug 1055911:30
povbotBug CPU +0.2 load constantly11:30
meceok, so what happens if I upload my magical version of libhildonfm to extras-devel? would it come up as an update?11:31
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chem|stdarn still wrong there its CPU +1.1 load constantly now11:31
mecebug #1055911:32
spyrochem|st: whats showing in top thats using CPU ?11:32
mecealready there.11:32
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mecepovbot is slow today..11:32
povbotmece: Error: "is" is not a valid command.11:32
chem|stmece: regarding normal ways yes11:32
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chem|stspyro: nothing relay all things but top are in S state...11:32
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spyrowhat about tasks waiting for IO11:33
spyroload being up isnt only about cpu usage11:33
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chem|stthat the system load doesnt drop in seconds from 1.2 back to 0.2 is normal but this is now the second time and its not droping for hours11:33
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chem|stspyro: CPU:  0.7% usr  1.5% sys  0.0% nice 97.6% idle  0.0% io  0.0% irq  0.0% softirq11:34
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spyrothat does seema bit odd.11:35
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chem|stsys is variing between 2.5 and 3.5% now11:36
spyrochem|st: constantly ?11:37
chem|stlook at the picture attached to the bug11:38
spyrochem|st: load is the number of processes waiting for io in a given period, so it can be quite high even with low CPU usage11:38
chem|stthought load is something like all together11:39
chem|sthow do I find out what is waiting?11:39
spyrowell, thats the classical definition. I dunno if linux does something odd...11:39
chem|stspyro: I guess not ;)11:39
spyrohelp me out... that graph has no scale and only a couple of legends11:40
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meceso.. any council members around?11:40
chem|stfor load the first horizontal line is 1 the second 2, load is the purple11:40
chem|stdotted lines ar .511:41
spyrook so load is the purple.11:42
chem|stso at this graph somwhere at 1.2-1.311:43
spyrolooks like when the load was 1.x the CPU was very busy (voltage sucked quite low)11:44
chem|ston the current graph something is producing +2 with peaks to 3.5 in the first 2 hours and the voltage gets sucked down decreasing a lot faster than just before11:45
chem|sti get the other pic ready11:45
spyroyou could try getting a commandline and killing processes until the load drops off :)11:46
spyrosee if its anything identifiable11:46
chem|stlast time I started stopped fmtx via desktop widget11:47
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chem|stI dont want to stop it until I realy know what is causing it11:47
jacekowskiprobably xorg11:47
spyrochem|st: I cant think of a good way of locating the task if its not showing any noticeable CPU or IOWAIT usage11:47
jacekowskithing is that it will be higher when you look at it11:48
jacekowskiloadavg on dyntick systems is messed up11:48
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spyrojacekowski: very true - esp. if the desktop is composited (it is on maemo isnt it?) as X will spend a lot of time IOWAITing on the GPU11:48
jacekowskiit isn't11:48
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spyrojacekowski: well the bug seems more likely :)11:49
spyrojacekowski: wasnt the loadavg bug fixed like a year ago ?11:49
jacekowskijust take a look at phone taken from iddle11:49
jacekowski1 minute average can reach over 111:49
jacekowskibut 5 and 15 minute average is under 0.111:49
chem|stspyro: new picture uploaded11:50
spyrochem|st: jacekowski's explanation seems quite plausible...11:50
jacekowskithing is that frequency should be adjusted to keep loadavg as high as possible11:50
jacekowskiwithout causing any interactivity loss11:50
jacekowskibut then you have run-to-idle strategy11:51
jacekowskiwhich is run at full speed and go to 0Hz idle as fast as possible11:51
chem|stjacekowski: Load average: 2.88 2.73 1.8611:52
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jacekowskiquite normal11:52
chem|stwas 1.2 1.2 1.2 before11:52
jacekowski 10:52:26 up 7 days, 20:19,  3 users,  load average: 0.11, 0.10, 0.0811:52
jacekowskibut that's server11:52
jacekowskiwith 4x2.8GHz cpu11:52
chem|stjacekowski: thats not normal!11:52
jacekowskichem|st: it is11:52
jacekowskichem|st: you don't understand how loadavg works11:53
jacekowskiit's amount of processes waiting for cpu11:53
wazd_n900guys, anyone faced 2 minute stop in media player with 1.2 fw?11:53
chem|stjacekowski: that it is stuck for hours at 1.2 even after a reboot?11:53
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jacekowskichem|st: take a look at ps output11:54
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chem|stlooking for what?11:54
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jacekowskiyou would have to get proper ps11:55
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jacekowskinot busybox one11:55
mmarc__I'm trying to install the maemo-sdk freemanntle rootstrap, but it gives unknown url that seems to be outdated. How can I update its internal information?11:55
jacekowskiand you would get cpu consumption of each process11:55
chem|stjacekowski: the loadavg hits 1.2 constantly and the battery gets drained faster and you call it normal you are kidding?11:55
jacekowskidefine faster11:56
chem|styou mean cpu time11:56
jacekowski( n900 only lasts couple hours )11:56
chem|stjacekowski: have a look at the pic and stop telling random BS!11:56
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chem|stn900 doesnt last only hours11:57
jacekowskiwhich pic?11:57
meceok... let's see if I can build libhildonfm11:57
jacekowskiwell, everybody will tell you that n900 doesn't last more than a day11:57
haltdef_wish that mugen battery wasn't fucked11:58
jacekowskichem|st: you see, that's a problem11:58
jacekowskichem|st: batterygraph uses resources as well11:58
chem|stjacekowski: well mine does as you see at the pic11:58
crashanddiedamn, even the chinese are showing us how to "fight the power"11:58
crashanddie"A Chinese farmer has declared war on property developers who want his land, building a cannon out of a wheelbarrow and pipes and firing rockets at would-be eviction teams"11:58
hajIt's all about a distributing charger-cables everywhere you normally go... :)11:58
jacekowskithat's a problem11:58
mecebleh.. my scratchbox hildon is too old apparently11:58
jacekowskichem|st: have you tried looking at top/cpu time/something?11:59
chem|stjacekowski: can you please stop telling me off on that! I know batterygraph threats every 5 seconds11:59
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chem|stuptime 4 days 19:17 -> xorg 19h; hildon-desktop 7h; bme_RX.. 6h; pulse 4h;12:01
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spyro*nukes the kernel*12:01
spyrojacekowski: good point with wanting to scale the CPU clock for intweractive perf. too12:02
spyroalthough it seems unlikely that anything on the systems would want to behave quite like hes seeing12:03
chem|stbatterygraph 8'12:03
spyrochem|st: unless its heinously badly written it shouldnt be causing much CPU load. how often does it poll the status ?12:05
* DocScrutinizer51 mv batterygraph batterydrain12:06
DocScrutinizer51old story12:06
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meceI get a "Makefile: 526 - Missing separator. Stop."12:09
meceSo what does that mean?12:09
mecethe Makefile line looks like this:12:10
chem|stspyro: 8 minutes cpu time in close to 4 days 19h isnt much...12:10
mece@ENABLE_GTK_DOC_FALSE@@echo "*** gtk-doc must be installed and enabled in order to make dist"12:10
mmarc__Bootstrapper installer asks: GUI start up command for 'freemantle5.0-10_i386'? - What to answer?12:10
spyrochem|st: probably not that then :)12:10
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chem|stDocScrutinizer51: I am monitoring my batterydrain for month now and batterygraph did no significant change to that yet12:11
mecehmm it's a tab problem apparently.12:12
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RST38hBatteryGraph did not affect me as well12:14
mmarc__hey, guys, how do you install freemantle rootstrap??12:14
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Tachikomahi - does anyone here use the MobileHotspot tool on his n900? I juust wonder if i need to set the ip adress on the laptop connecting to the device manually or if there is supposed to be some dhcp service? I found tons of documentation on what to do on the n900 side but nothing on the setup of the connecte machine. I can connect to the mobilehospot ad-hoc network (at least according to iwconfig on the laptop) but do not get any ip adress ...12:15
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fluxtachikoma, the project page suggests reading the configuration keys from the source :)12:25
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fluxin any case, atleast n900 has dnsmasq available, so it should be able to use that for serving DHCP12:26
mmarc__guys, I really wonder if there exists a newer version of sdk installation guide, than
BCMMTachikoma: i have used mobilehotspot, it basically just works12:26
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TachikomaBCMM: so no need to manually configure the IP on the connected laptop?12:26
chem|stspyro: the imapd on the server I am here got 98h in 5.5days...12:26
BCMMTachikoma: i don't think so12:26
BCMMi didn't look at how it works12:27
BCMMbut my machine seemed to get assigned an address12:27
TachikomaI have the suspicion that the problem is with this networkmanager thing on the laptop, not with mobilehotspot12:27
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spyrochem|st: yeah doesnt look like the battery load app. sorry, I'm out of ideas.12:27
spyrochem|st: try killing stuff :)12:27
TachikomaBCMM: thanks a lot, then i will first look into network manager and try using thintgs with ifconfig directly12:27
dnearyX-Fade, ping?12:27
chem|stI wait for an answer at the bug report12:27
spyrogood luck :)12:28
mmarc__thanks a lot for your help!12:29
chem|stspyro: my xserver at home has 8h with 22days uptime but I guess thats nothing to compare with12:29
chem|stspyro: whats your cputime on xorg?12:30
* lcuk spies a spyro 12:30
lcukello dude12:30
spyrochem|st: thats not really useful to know (and I just rebooted)12:30
spyrochem|st: depending on what you're doing X can use anything from no CPU to 100%.12:31
chem|stanyone with uptime +2days?12:31
spyrochem|st: my fileserver has uptime +400 days, but no X :)12:31
spyroUPS FTW! :)12:31
Tachikomaok - it does just work with a macbook as client. So I guess my problem is with network manager and nothing on the n900 :)12:31
Tachikomathe usual experience ...12:32
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chem|stspyro: at home I whatch tv movies play 3d games (wine helps...)12:32
chem|stspyro: ;) yes!12:32
chem|stspyro: I had to boot after a couple of hours fallout12:33
ShapeshifterIs there nm, strings or objdump somewhere in the repos?12:34
ShapeshifterCan't find any of them.12:34
chem|stbut as my firewall is "kill'em all and let god sort them out" the wake on lan stopped working for some reason12:34
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mmarc__kalikiana: Linux msiwind 2.6.32-22-generic12:41
mmarc__kalikiana: 32-bit12:41
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kalikianammarc__, try "echo 0 | sudo tee /proc/sys/vm/vdso_enabled"12:41
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mmarc__kalikiana: works now, thanks a lot!12:43
kalikianayou're welcome12:43
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Stskeepsjoppu: it's difficult to say it's not a deriative though as it was used as basis for your work, including the packaging and such13:07
psycho_oreoson PR1.2 firmware, is it possible under applications manager to select more than one items to install?13:08
Stskeepsjoppu: as i said before, same rights that you have to make your own theme based on the theming information is passed on and should be passed on13:09
Stskeeps is pretty clear :P13:09
Stskeepseither way, this isn't my battle - just stating the situation13:10
joppuyou can't compare code and art licenses13:10
jopputhe hildin-theme-tool stuff should be licensed under GPL or something13:11
joppuI was under impression that just the graphic stuff was under CC13:11
Stskeepscan you -honestly- say that your png's and svgs are not in one way or the other built on the template svgs and pngs?13:11
Stskeepseven if 'code'/scripts was GPL licensed, it'd be same situation13:12
joppuI can say that13:12
SpeedEvilMuch stuff is pretty generically computer13:13
Tachikomagraphics based on templates? I have a hard time understanding what that means. I assumed that graphics are drawn or sketched13:13
Stskeepshow? placements of theme elements and everything are pretty static13:13
Tachikomabut maybe i missunderstand something ...13:13
SpeedEvilNobody uses a picture of a file (tool) to denote a file in the UI13:13
joppuwell the placements are an another thing13:14
jopputhe whole problem isn't that I don't want people to modify my themes, the problem is that I feel offended by the fact that somebody is "fixing" my artistic choices13:16
Stskeepsright, the social part of it13:16
Stskeepsit is their right though, just as it was given to you to modify and build a theme cos of wanting a different theme than nokia ones :/13:17
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joppubut I'm not "fixing" the nokia ones, I'm building ones of my own13:18
Tachikomajoppu: which theme is from you?13:19
Stskeepsthere's not really a difference, a modification is a modification13:19
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TachikomaI just ask as i tried some and was not yet able to find a single one i liked13:19
Stskeepseither way, , ie, all the .rc stuff, , template + coordinates png - so, licensing is pretty clear. i believe the kontorri theme maker ones has a similar license13:20
Stskeepsso, it is cc by sa 2.5 or 3.0 depending where you look.13:20
Tachikomaand is there a page where one could see screenshot of available themes? I took screenshot of the ones i tried already to but them on a blog but was wondering if that already exists?13:21
joppuTachikoma: tt's carbon. some others I can recommend is the array by me and then there's marina by wazd and of course D-livil's stuff (there's tons of those)13:21
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Tachikomajoppu: mh, i guess i already tried some of them. I'd like to have some brighter theme, but most are dark and the brighter ones i found were not that nice13:22
jopputhat's kinda incomplete though13:22
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Tachikomawow, thanks a lot for the link13:22
Tachikomawas unable to find that by myself13:22
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jopputhe problem is that Nokia has decided the create the template in a way that makes black-on-white themes kinda impossible13:23
Tachikomai see13:23
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* Stskeeps had a similar situation of his irc daemon software being used by a bunch of white pride people, which i didn't like at all, but the same thing that protects me against someone filing a lawsuit against me for randomly revoking the license to my code is the same freedom they have.13:24
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crashanddieStskeeps: change the default of future versions to a big black body builder13:25
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crashanddiedefault theme.13:25
Stskeepscrashanddie: meh, long ago13:26
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BCMMStskeeps: so add a backdoor and take over their server :)13:29
StskeepsBCMM: naah. no need to do illegal things cos you disagree with people13:30
joppuwoah nice URL13:30
Stskeepsjoppu: well, you can do that, but you can't stop the use13:31
BCMMStskeeps: not entirely serious, of course13:31
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BCMMlooking at that themes page, what is the relationship between matrix and melody?13:36
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joppumatrix is melody with changed backgrounds13:40
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BCMMwow, the tmo thread should really mention that13:41
BCMMhmm, it suggests that the matrix theme adds green progress bars too13:41
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BCMMbother, i had already decided i wanted to use something pretty much like Matrix without the silly backgrounds13:41
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joppuI think I have already expressed my concern about changing a few backgrounds adding a fancy name and calling it a theme13:42
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BCMMis there a page somewhere listing boot videos people have made?13:46
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* RST38h moos at the moon13:50
RST38hEHLO joppu, sorry for pissing you off so unexpectedly =)13:50
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misc--hello - I was wondering if it's possible to read sms message directly via a terminal, or ssh?13:53
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* SpeedEvil suffers a parity error.13:55
mecemisc-, yes.13:55
* SpeedEvil tries to recover.13:56
* crashanddie pairs SpeedEvil with his bluetooth headset13:56
misc--ah, how do you do that?13:56
crashanddiemisc--: you can query a sqlite database that contains all the events13:56
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misc--do you know where the sqlite db stored?13:58
crashanddiemisc--: I wrote a small python app that interacts with the SMS's DB13:58
crashanddieshoudl give you an idea13:58
misc--ah good stuff, thanks a lot13:58
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joppuspeaking of themes14:05
jopputhere's a great example of a "theme"14:05
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BCMMdo i need to turn off the n900 to insert a micro-sd?14:16
Stskeepsno, but back panel needs to be on14:17
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BCMMStskeeps: ah, that would explain why it was taking so much force to insert14:18
BCMMi must've been trying to push it through a couple of mm of hard plastic14:18
SpeedEvilI did that first too.14:19
MiXu-_There's a magnet in the cover that tells the phone whether the cover is on or not.14:19
SpeedEvilI had to use a hammer.14:19
MiXu-_If the cover is not there, the microsd will be unmounted14:19
BCMMMiXu-_: the n900 knows if the cover is on?14:19
BCMMthere needs to be a list somewhere of environmental sensors the n900 does not have14:20
BCMM(starting with rotation)14:20
BCMMwhat happens if you take the case off and it cannot unmount the sd?14:20
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BCMMbah, how does this work? does it slot into the cover like the sim, or do you put it on the contacts then close it?14:21
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SpeedEvilslots in14:21
Khertan1Hi !14:21
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SpeedEvilyou push the microSD cover opposite to the direction of the arrow14:21
SpeedEvilit then unlocks14:22
SpeedEvilflip it up14:22
SpeedEvilput microsd in14:22
SpeedEvilinto the steel bit14:22
SpeedEvilit then flips back down, and you slide it into lock14:22
BCMMah, looks like the problem is that this is not actually a microsd card14:23
BCMMSpeedEvil: so it works just like the sim cover then/14:23
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BCMMofftopic, but what is about the size of a microsd but rectangular (with a few notches)14:24
BCMM(it came out of a Sony phone)14:24
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jaskasony reeks of those proprietary memory sticks? maybe "memory stick micro"?14:25
BCMMmemory stick micro; when will sandisk tire of inventing types of memory card?14:25
jaskaits sonys own format14:25
BCMMlooks like sandisk makes them though14:26
BCMMkinda assumed SD from the sandisk name14:26
BCMMoh well, bluetooth time14:26
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BCMMdoes the n900 do OBEX File Transfer Profile?14:33
BCMM(i mean, as teh PC)14:33
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SpeedEvilIs that the 'browse other phones fss' thing?14:35
BCMMi'm trying to get everything off my girlfriend's phone, (which she plans to replace) - this is basically contacts and photos14:35
SpeedEvilno - as I understand it.14:35
BCMMthere has to be a better way that accepting the files, one at a time14:35
BCMMSpeedEvil: what is fss?14:35
BCMMoh, filesystems14:35
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BCMMi have no bluetooth on my pc14:36
BCMMbut when i had a bluetooth laptop, i was able to see directories on hte old phone using obex14:36
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BCMMthe n900 won't do that?14:36
SpeedEvilAs I understand it no, not with the default software.14:37
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SpeedEvilIt is certainly possible with the hardware14:37
BCMMand there isn't a package to do that yet14:37
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BCMMATM she it just sitting there pressing accept... accept... accept...14:37
ForeignI`m Turkey.14:37
BCMM(her phone, for some reason, has a "send all my photos one at a time over bluetooth" feature)14:37
BCMMshe seems surprisingly happy about that actually14:38
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BCMMForeign: the entire country?14:40
MiXu-_Big man14:40
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BCMMwas that a fortune, or directed at me?14:41
mecejoppu, what's this about themes now?14:41
MiXu-_I was wondering about the same thing14:41
MiXu-_Or maybe he meant to say he's a turkey14:42
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mecejoppu, those other "themes" are only there to make your theme look more awesome14:42
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BCMMMiXu-_: probably meant "Turkish"14:44
MiXu-_Sure :)14:44
meceoh right. nvr mind.14:47
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HazzHey guys14:49
HazzI just have a little question please14:49
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Hazzin the updates section, if i update the phone to the latest Maemo OS, does that remove any data from the phone? like sms, contacts and photos14:49
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Hazzi have nokia n900 sorry didnt mention that14:50
MiXu-_But it's good to have a backup just in case14:50
crashanddieHazz: there's only one phone that runs Maemo14:50
MiXu-_Put it on a memorycard or a pc14:50
Hazzhow to backup ?14:50
crashanddieHazz: backup application14:50
MiXu-_There's backup built in14:51
Hazzwhere can i reach that ?14:51
vldcnstApplication list14:52
MiXu-_If you have something older than PR1.2 it's under "More..."14:53
alterego~seen MohammadAG14:53
chem|st"safe" icon called "Backup"14:53
infobotmohammadag <~MohammadA@> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 20h 41m 13s ago, saying: 'SpeedEvil, not sure, it just popped up while using ssh'.14:54
alteregoDamnit, I fail at bot commanding.14:54
alteregoOh, no I didn't :D14:54
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alteregoDamnit ..14:54
alteregoWhat's my t.m.o user page?14:55
Hazzthanks a lot guys14:55
alteregoHopw do I get it?14:55
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alteregoBecause it doesn't look like it's registered my forum posts ..14:56
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alteregoHrm, maybe it's just taking time to register or something, because I got the url right ... :/14:58
DocScrutinizeralterego: about:blank15:00
alteregoDocScrutinizer: :P15:00
alteregoI like my list of Handhelds, makes me look like a right Fanboi: "Nokia N900, Nokia N810, Nokia N800, Nokia 770, Nokia N96, Nokia N95 8G"15:00
mece~seen GeneralAntilles15:00
infobotgeneralantilles is currently on #maemo (1d 10h 6m 35s) #meego (1d 10h 6m 35s). Has said a total of 91 messages. Is idling for 19h 38m, last said: 'alterego, you, too, can not be socialist.'.15:00
alteregoWould be about me wouldn't it :D15:00
SpeedEvil~seen SpeedEvil15:01
infobotspeedevil is currently on #maemo (59m 28s) #openmoko (59m 28s) #edev (59m 28s). Has said a total of 18 messages. Is idling for 1s, last said: '~seen SpeedEvil'.15:01
vldcnst18 messages? that can't be right15:01
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mecealterego, I've got N-Gage and N900. What does that make me?15:01
alteregomece: erm .. I don't want to say :P15:01
inzmece, the original sidetalk N-Gage?15:01
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meceN-Gage + frodo = awesome.15:01
DocScrutinizervldcnst: why not count them, so you know for sure. I mean it's just 1h15:01
meceinz, of course. not the shitty excuse that came later.15:02
SpeedEvilvldcnst: probably since I relogged this morning15:02
DocScrutinizermorning?  (59m 28s)15:02
vldcnstoh, its only this session15:02
DocScrutinizervldcnst: since birth then?15:03
vldcnstthat "total" is misleading15:03
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alteregoHas anyone else linked their talk with their profile?15:03
DocScrutinizerwhy? isn't it the total of all chan you're in with infobot?15:04
alterego(yes, I'm trying to be a karma whore)15:04
DocScrutinizeralterego: lo15:04
alteregoDocScrutinizer: how long did it take to register? I thought it was refreshed every night or summink ..15:04
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DocScrutinizerworked after a week15:04
* mece has enabled viewing of file extensions.15:04
alteregoOh, right :)15:04
alteregoFair enough :D15:05
DocScrutinizerbtw karma seems is recalculated every 4..7 days, maybe once a week actually15:05
alteregoOh, ghey :D15:06
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alteregoNot sure if it's still going to be used though, by Nokia.15:06
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alteregoI'd imagine with MeeGo, they're going to need to account for Moblin devs too, or some such.15:06
meceok, so.. on this new and improved file manager file picker and all that. what should we do with audio files for example?15:06
alteregoAnd I completely missed the N900 DDP, I didn't even know it was happening.15:06
DocScrutinizerfor last council elections it has been used15:06
meceoriginally track title is shown with artist below. With my new and pimped version you only see filename.15:07
DocScrutinizermece: :-)))15:07
mecewas thinking something like filename first and then artist - title. What do you think?15:07
SpeedEvil- how many lines people have in my logs15:07
SpeedEvilSince ~oct15:08
DocScrutinizermece: that's just fine for me15:08
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DocScrutinizer(not showing anything I mean)15:08
DocScrutinizerit's a file manager15:08
SpeedEvilIn maemo that is.15:08
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DocScrutinizerfor such "useless" info I gather there's a "file details" menu entry15:09
meceDocscrutinizer, ok. Well that means it's done. Should I create my own version number for this?15:09
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crashanddieGeneralAntilles: also: (finally an adblock that allows safari to run in 64bit)15:09
DocScrutinizermece: could it learn to show full pathname as well?15:10
GAN900crashanddie, OmniWeb!15:10
meceDocScrutinizer, you mean to start from / instead of MyDocs?15:10
meceor just the whole thing..15:10
meceI dunno. Haven't looked at that yet.15:10
meceI'll just make this one first.15:10
SpeedEvilcuteexplorer is ok15:10
LynoureIt kind of annoys me that user's home is a different place than MyDocs15:11
SpeedEvilThere are good reasons for that.15:11
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SpeedEvilBasically, mydocs has to be vfat, and to go away when it's plugged in as mass storage15:11
DocScrutinizerit annoys me Nokia is optimizing a linux OS for M$-users15:11
SpeedEvilSo it can't be _too_ crucial15:11
SpeedEvilIt's not MS15:11
SpeedEvilit's essentially optimising for everything other than linux desktops/laptops15:12
SpeedEvilwhich is probably fair.15:12
SpeedEvilMany printers can take a mass storage device and read pictures off it.15:12
SpeedEvilBut only if it's in vfat15:12
DocScrutinizerit's idiocy15:12
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DocScrutinizereven osX has a ^G in their filemanager - whatever it's called. "go to:" /etc, ->voila15:13
LynoureSpeedEvil: The part that annoys me is that as the result many app developers (me to until recently) think that ~ is a good place for files... but it's not.15:14
infobotLynoure meant: SpeedEvil: The part that annoys me is that as the result many app developers (me too until recently) think that ~ is a good place for files... but it's not.15:14
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: and we're not talking bout VFAT here15:14
DocScrutinizerit's about HFM and every bit that uses fileselector15:14
SpeedEvil~ is a good place for small files15:15
SpeedEvilI was commenting on Lynoures comment15:15
SpeedEviland explaining the reasons for that.15:15
LynoureSpeedEvil: not really, makes it hard to backup them elsewhere15:15
SpeedEvilDoesn't rsync work just as well on home?15:15
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DocScrutinizeryeah sorry, s/we/me/15:15
* SpeedEvil fails to see the problem.15:15
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LynoureSpeedEvil: sure, over the network it's not a problem, just over the usb15:16
crashanddieGAN900: safari scores 100 in the acid 3 test ;)15:16
SpeedEvilA 'right' way would be to use the nice shiny tracker database to populate a virtual vfat filesystem.15:16
crashanddieGAN900: omniweb a poor 2015:17
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SpeedEvilAs the USB is plugged in15:17
LynoureSpeedEvil: that would indeed be nice.15:17
DocScrutinizerLynoure: as SpeedEvil elaborated, having your $HOME on vfat would break your functionality as long as phone is plugged to a host using mass storage15:17
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SpeedEvilDoing that right is hard though.15:17
SpeedEvilAnd involves some not quite trivial new code.15:18
LynoureDocScrutinizer: I did understand his explanation.15:18
SpeedEvil :)15:20
SpeedEvilWebsite fail.15:20
sx0nSpeedEvil, populate fs from tracker?15:21
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SpeedEvilsx0n: yes.15:21
LynoureDocScrutinizer: just a bit frustrated with some data being in ~ and some in MyDocs. I have not yet looked at what the default backup app backs up to the vfat, if it also sweeps ~ (excluding MyDocs) there, that's less of an annoyance, but I suspect it does not.15:21
SpeedEvilsx0n: On plugin to USB as mass storage, you read the tracker database for files, and the make a virtual filesystem which you export to the PC/printer/...15:22
SpeedEvilsx0n: This decouples the underlying filesystem from the exported one.15:22
sx0nshallow copy?15:23
SpeedEvil(to do this right, you would need all sorts of twiddles. For example, you would need tracker to be always up to date, so it might need kernel hooks. You'd also need to make read-only any files. And deal with files that are open being modified by the vfat side.)15:24
SpeedEvilAlso - if on vfat side, user takes a file, and moves it around in the directories, what happens gets messy.15:25
DocScrutinizerwhy tracker? if you're able to create a virtual block oriented fs from logical files, then why not simply take the *real* files, maybe even starting at /15:25
SpeedEvilBecause then you would need to run find /mydocs at insert-time15:25
SpeedEvilwith potentially tens or hundreds of thousands of files.15:25
E0xmorning vietnan !!15:25
DocScrutinizerseems no diff to using tracker for it15:26
meceok so...15:26
mecelet's see now.15:26
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: find / may take about 10 mins before completing15:26
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sx0nSpeedEvil, sounds almost misuse of things :) i would suppose that there is easier ways to do that somehow15:27
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: that's nothing, compared to the cpu workload to create virtual blocks and a virtual FAT from that list of files15:27
mecehow is that apt-get trick where you specify which version you want?15:27
sx0nSpeedEvil, afaik tracker is about up-to-date, at least it gets notifications of files inserted15:28
mecesomething like apt-get install thingamagic=1.3.415:28
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: it's really not - that's damn trivial. You run through the file list allocating x blocks in the FAT for each file, as you don't care about fragmentation.15:28
DocScrutinizerif only it were so simple ;-P15:29
SpeedEvilThat part of it is.15:29
SpeedEvilThe harder part is the locking.15:29
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DocScrutinizeryou need directory structures, need to handle sparse files, dunno what15:30
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SpeedEvilyou don't need sparse files15:31
DocScrutinizeryour task is definitely > mkfs.vfat15:31
SpeedEvilAs fat doesn't do that.15:32
DocScrutinizerbut your source fs might do that15:32
SpeedEvilYou don't care.15:32
SpeedEvilYou build the FS as if the sparse files are real.15:32
SpeedEvilThis does raise obvious issues though15:32
SpeedEvilThere are edge cases all over.15:32
SpeedEvilPerformance isn't really one though15:32
DocScrutinizerexactly, not even for a silly "find / >somewhere"15:34
SpeedEviltime find /home/user/data/ |wc15:35
SpeedEvilreal3m 11.76s15:35
SpeedEvil   442877    454965  3538285215:35
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DocScrutinizeras quite obviously without a *real* filehandle, just with the crappy info from tracker, you won't lift it anyway15:35
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lardmanhi chaps15:36
SpeedEvilI'm assuming tracker info is somewhat updated, and made complete with kernel hooks.15:36
* DocScrutinizer shrugs15:36
* lardman gets round to reading about the new i-thingie15:36
* lardman likes the sound of gyros + accelerometers + digital compass, Nokia take note of the exciting possibilities15:36
SpeedEvilDoes it vibrate?15:37
lardmanI imagine so15:37
SpeedEvilPractically - integrated digital compasses have only really just come onto the market15:37
RST38hOnly when Steve Jobs is around15:37
meceDocScrutinizer, ok building arm version. Man I'm a little bit excited actually :)15:37
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, yes, I care because I browse Acid3 every day. :P15:37
GeneralAntillesmece, what?15:37
meceGeneralAntilles, it was nothing.15:38
meceGeneralAntilles, or did you wonder what I was building?15:38
GeneralAntillesmece, just wondering if you needed anything. ;)15:38
meceGeneralAntilles, ok, no. I just saw crashanddie mention you and I was wondering if you were around at all :)15:38
alteregoOh, I like the iPhone 4 launch, fail first time :D15:39
mecealterego, what failed?15:39
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GeneralAntillescrashanddie, also: Damn your lies.
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lardmanyuck, Apple! ;)15:40
mecealterego, lol15:41
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sx0ngood response time15:41
GeneralAntillesHrm, N9.15:41
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mecehey nice, there's a N900 link below that apple fail!15:42
alteregoThis one is much better:
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DocScrutinizermece: with an amizing one sentence of info15:44
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meceDocScrutinizer, there is a video though.15:44
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DocScrutinizerno time for such nonsense like videos15:45
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meceok apparently my arm target was not up to date. all updated and now I'm really building :)15:50
cehtehmhm .. there is no fax solution for the n900 .. and mobile phones in general?15:50
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crashanddieGeneralAntilles: I thought you didn't browse the acid test?15:51
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crashanddiecehteh: fax?15:53
meceshould I create a garage project for hildon filemanager community edition?15:53
cehtehjust thinking :) .. imaging you could send/receive faxes on your smartphone15:54
cehtehmy newton had that!15:54
cehteh15 years ago!!15:54
crashanddieno it shouldn;'t15:54
crashanddiefax is a dead technology15:54
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crashanddieemail is recognised as having the same legal standing as fax15:54
cehtehhere in germany its quit much used still15:54
* Stskeeps decides to wear his 'Fixed in Fremantle' tshirt today15:54
crashanddieyeah.. but germans...15:54
cehtehnot by me i have no fax device, the only thing i ever used for faxing was my newton15:55
meceStskeeps, :D15:55
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Stskeepsvery handy tshirt if you want to be spotted in a crowd15:55
crashanddiecehteh: my ISP offers a free fax service. Special number that is my "fax" number, and I get a PDF version of the faxes I receive per email15:55
crashanddiecehteh: same thing, I can email PDFs to a special email account, and it faxes them for me15:55
cehtehah .. well i could set such up too i guess, not that i really need it now, but if it would be build in i'd use it15:56
cehteh(once or two times in a lifetime :P)15:56
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GAN900crashanddie, well, we still can't have you spreading false information around. :P15:57
meceStskeeps, kinda like my "Satanic Warmaster" t-shirt then :)15:58
Stskeepsmece: i'm waiting for the MeeGo tshirts :P15:59
meceStskeeps, fixed in meego?15:59
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Tachikomafax is definatly not dead here16:01
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crashanddieGAN900: has so, false information?16:01
RST38hStskeeps: You want some with the Intel logo? =)16:01
Termanabackstreetmerch... this sounds like a reliable place to buy at16:01
crashanddieGAN900: your screenshot just confirmed what I said16:01
Tachikomait's pretty common, and it's much easier to get paperwork to someone than mail often is. Govermental agencies are not yet able to handle documents that are sent by mail while they absolutly accept documents that were sent by fax16:02
StskeepsRST38h: if theres16:02
Stskeeps's a nokia logo too, maybe16:02
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meceok, let's see if my phone implodes with the customized filemanager. installing...16:02
Tachikomai know because i do not have fasx and had to use it several times already this year, alternatively i would have had to send a snailmail16:02
meceit is a GO!16:03
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RST38hOMG, N900 has become unbearably slow16:04
Dassuhtop is your friend16:04
SpeedEvilRST38h: overclock it.16:04
mecewait, I spoke too soon.. need reboot. or restart of something anyway. doing reboot.16:04
RST38hhtop does not tell me anything useful16:04
SpeedEvilapt-get install sysstats16:04
SpeedEvilRST38h: powertop too16:05
RST38hwhat are sysstats?16:05
DassuOverlocking is not recomended since power consumption is directly related to the CPU frequency16:05
Tachikomais iostat in systats?16:05
SpeedEvilsystats are the root package of iostats16:05
meceDassu, I believe that was a joke.16:05
SpeedEvilIt was.16:05
Tachikomaoki, i ned that16:05
RST38hah I see16:05
SpeedEvilI assume RST38h has a clue.16:05
Dassumece: No it is not :|16:05
meceDassu, I meant SpeedEvil's comments.16:05
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alterego960-by-640 pixel in the new iPhone16:08
alteregoI was expecting more ..16:08
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alteregoI thought, I might be wrong, but I thought they said, four times the pixels per inch16:08
RST38hIt is still the same 3.6" screen though16:08
alteregoThat doesn't sound like 4x ..16:08
RST38hme wants 4.3"16:08
achipaX-Fade,how did our hoop friend get imported again ?
Corsacthey doubled the resolution in both directions16:09
alteregoAh, okay16:09
achipaalterego: four times as much pixels16:09
alteregoYeah, I was just trying to find the original iPhone resolution but couldn't.16:10
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SpeedEvilArgh. I think there is a major bug in the auto-update application code.16:10
achipaalterego: though I am not at all sure if it's not some magic-pixel-tech cheat thingy, a la AMOLED16:10
SpeedEvilI just got a notification of 4 apps to update - and fmms wasn't in there.16:10
alteregoAh, 320x480?16:10
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achipaalterego: yes. Though 960x640 could be a funky RGB layout 640x48016:13
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mgedminstereo 640x480 ;)16:13
achipamgedmin: no, as in 2 component pixels, counted separately for marketing purposes16:13
TermanaI think you'll find there is no tricks being played here, like was/is played with AMOLED screens.16:14
achipaI think I'll wait to see the actual hardware :)16:14
meceso the outcome was almost as i wanted.16:15
alteregoHrm ..16:15
mecenow I can see filename extensions on for example txt files and png/jpg etc. can you see those in the regular file manager?16:16
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Trewasmece: not for .txt or .jpg files at least16:19
mecealterego, the resolution makes sense, since otherwise they'd have trouble with the old apps. to simply double the pixels is very simple.16:19
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meceTrewas, thank you very much.16:19
alteregomece: I'm not saying it doesn't make sense.16:20
alteregoI'm sure the screen will look brilliant.16:20
SpeedEvilI question if simply integer rounding isn't as good.16:20
alteregoI just think the name is a bit misleading.16:20
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SpeedEvilCan the user actually tell the difference at 285dpi16:20
SpeedEvilMaybe just16:20
meceSpeedEvil, I think it looks about as sharp as the N900. Moar pixels is always nice though imo.16:21
alteregoWht's the N900 dpi?16:21
GAN900achipa, no trickery.16:22
GAN900achipa, IPS.16:22
SpeedEvilIt's about that too16:22
GAN900crashanddie, how so?16:22
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achipaooh, lookie lookie, new Nokia Qt SDK !16:25
meceoo nice.16:26
mecehey.. the maemo5.0 repository. is that supposed to be activated?16:26
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mecetalking about
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GAN900Nokia REALLY better have something better planned for Harmattan16:29
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GAN900WVGA and OMAP3 will be so far behind the times come fall.16:30
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alteregoI think WVGA is fine.16:30
* MohammadAG51 suggests a 1GHz OMAP316:31
achipaOMAP3 1ghz is catch-up at best, considering it has to last through at least 201116:31
alteregoMohammadAG51: you rang last night? Still having issues with the IM status updater?16:31
MohammadAG51hmm, I think i had a Q16:31
MohammadAG51i forgot anyways :)16:32
achipaand 2011 is likely the year of OMAP4 and dual core snapdragons16:32
MohammadAG51dual core is overrated16:32
MohammadAG51especially in mobiles16:32
RST38hindeed, few applications can make use of dual cores16:32
RST38hthe memory is the bottleneck anyways16:32
achipafor android/iphone style multitasking, yes, but maemo/meego ? not so much16:32
GAN900Cortex A9 or you're a generation behind.16:32
RST38hachipa: A question16:33
MohammadAG51what CPU does the N8 use?16:33
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RST38hachipa: When your N900 is stuck and unresponsive, what do you think is the problem? Lack of CPU performance?16:33
achipaMohammadAG51: ARM11 fossil with broadcom DSP for video16:33
IkarusRST38h: eMMC being shit slow :)16:33
achipaRST38h: I know, I know, we swap around16:34
MohammadAG51achipa, isn't that the N97-kind16:34
RST38hachipa: Exactly. And you can have 8 cores if you want. It will not change a thing.16:34
Ikarusmore memory would make more difference then a faster clock16:34
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MohammadAG51RST38h, ssh and check top16:34
RST38hMore memory. Faster memory.16:34
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RST38hMohammad: top stays pretty low all that time.16:34
achipaRST38h: the thing is that I DO expect more memory and faster swap to be available16:34
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GAN900These things go hand-in-hand with a generational upgrade.16:35
RST38hachipa: And once you have those (if only), you may not even notice that you need more CPU16:35
RST38hachipa: because 600MHz-1GHz CortexA8 is really *enough* for most mobile things16:35
MohammadAG51for now at least16:35
RST38hBut in order to make more use of the CPU power, you need bigger screen and bigger battery and better input facilities first16:36
MohammadAG51i expect an i7 in a Maemo 7 device in 3 years :)16:36
achipaslightly less braindead software would help, too16:36
RST38hOtherwise, it makes no difference is the keyhole you are looking through is lit with a 40W bulb or a 500W bukb16:36
MohammadAG51with a 1GP camera16:36
b-man|laptopno, 1TP16:37
alteregoIn built 1080p projector :)16:37
RST38hMohammad: Are you expecting to move to Antarctic then?16:37
MohammadAG511080p will be old16:37
MohammadAG51QFHD ftw16:37
alteregoMohammadAG51: in a phone? :P16:37
RST38hMohammad: Because that thing will
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MohammadAG51RST38h, well16:37
b-man|laptopwith a TP you could read a sign from 100 miles away lol16:37
alteregoRST38h: It'll be nitrogen cooled obviously :D16:38
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MohammadAG51the poles should be molten16:38
alteregoAnyhow, I'm off bbl16:38
RST38halterego: Ah, don't tell me where he is gonna "house" the pump...16:38
kryptt\j wicket16:38
MohammadAG51RST38h, he can't, it's a family channel16:38
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* RST38h really just wants a bigger screen and longer battery. Nokia can keep CortexA8 in there, or even use that ARM11 fossil16:39
* b-man|laptop would be happy with more ram16:40
RST38hA 1GHz ARM11 with 500MHz memory will run circles around the Cortex16:40
RST38hAh, shit, you can just use ARM9 there :)16:40
* MohammadAG51 would be happy with MW2 support16:40
Termana<RST38h> indeed, few applications can make use of dual cores <-- are you trying to say this "few apps can use it because they aren't written that way" or "few apps can use it because it provides little benefit"16:41
Tachikomawhat is the speed differentce between eMMC and a micro SD card? I'd expect the microSD to be slower, but frm my expereince with n800 i know that i might be wrong. There the two sd cards i had both were faster than the internal memory16:41
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GAN900RST38h, if it's available to be used, it'll be used.16:42
GAN900Stuff like that sounds like saying 1GB will be all you'll ever need for a desktop HD in 1994.16:42
GAN900The web is getting more complicated every day16:43
GAN900That's the biggest thing that needs keeping up with.16:43
TermanaBecause if your saying they can't use it because they weren't written with multi-cores in mind (threading etc.) - this is a native app issue. Android apps will (should) automatically take advantage of it.16:43
RST38hTermana: few apps solve problems that can be split over two cores16:43
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RST38hGAN900: Oh, no, I am not repeating certain Gates' words :)16:43
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RST38hGAN900: Merely saying that CPU is not a bottleneck in these ARM-based systems. Once the memory bottleneck is more or less resolved, CPU may become the next bottleneck16:44
RST38hGAN900: And it is good that you have mentioned the web: your web browser need memory (more of it, faster of it) way more than it needs CPU16:45
achipaRST38h: except if you talk about the unholy Flash16:45
RST38hachipa: Same with flash16:45
achipaRST38h: how so ? It's a separate process. You don't want it to bog down the browser.16:46
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GAN900RST38h, I think we need both16:46
GAN900and the faster memory is generally going to be tied with newer CPUs.16:47
chem|stkilled my fox on my desktop yesterday... eating up 1.2GB mem and 2.4GB swap16:47
GAN900Tachikoma, I think it depends on what you're doing.16:47
achipaRST38h: nobody says you should stick an OMAP4 in there with 256MB of RAM16:47
chem|stand I bet it was flash ads killing it16:47
b-man|laptopchem|st: how many tabs did you have open? lol16:48
achipachem|st: what ? no flashblock ? :)16:48
GAN900and with the multitasking these things generally do, dual core will be useful.16:48
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chem|stwith flash about 3 or 4, and 20 others16:48
chem|stachipa: I cant block flash on a 100% flash site...16:48
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TachikomaGAN900: how does the speed of some storage medium get influenzed by what one does?16:49
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chem|stfreshly started with those 20-30 tabs it eats 500MB ram and no swap16:49
b-man|laptopthe most tabs i've ever had open was about 65 lol16:49
Tachikomai mean, of course, there is throughput and access time and different factors, but they should be the same no matter if i open the kernel or some video file16:49
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achipaRST38h: plus, do not underestimate the parallelism Qt can provide under the hood - that's something you get for free16:50
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chem|stI got this tab-toolkit and have up to 6 rows open with 15 tabs each16:50
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achipa(esp with QGraphicsView or signal/event heavy stuff)16:50
chem|sthow do it put it to the side of the screen btw16:51
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fiferboyGAN900: Rays got their offense going last night16:53
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lcukn900apt-get install novacaine16:55
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ptlW: Unable to locate package novacaine16:57
GAN900fiferboy, you aren't kidding.16:57
lcukn900ptl damn typo16:57
lcukn900apt-get install novocaine16:57
GAN900Hooray for a Peña grand slam16:57
fiferboyGAN900: I told you the Jays were what they needed16:58
ptlW: Unable to locate package novocaine16:58
ptlwhat is this package all about?16:58
GAN900Tachikoma, random read/write, sequetial read/write, block size, etc.16:58
lcukn900they are apt-get remove purging a tooth16:58
GAN900Tachikoma, different flash types handle these with different degrees of competency.16:59
achipawell, at least "Create apps for early adopters" clears things about mainstreaming...16:59
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* GAN900 wonders how dumbed-down Harmattan will be.17:00
GAN900Between capacitive insanity and that whole "mainstream" silliness.17:00
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TermanaJust as an aside re: the flash (on desktop) discussion just above17:00
TermanaFlash regularly locks up my machine and/or slows it right down17:01
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TermanaI have to drop to a terminal and manually kill it17:01
lcukn900or just wait till its scanned17:01
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achipaheh, N97 got filed under smartphones17:02
GAN900achipa, hilarious.17:02
fluxhmm, has anyone noticed this? 1) start playing a network music stream on media player 2) stop it 3) switch from 3g to wlan or vice versa 4) music starts playing by itself17:02
Termanalcukn900, scanned? by what? It just sits there no matter what. I can close my browser completely off and half an hour come back and find flash still running.17:03
flux(pr1.2-feature I just noticed)17:03
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flux(and I'm wondering if there's a bug for that)17:03
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* frals is slightly lost17:04
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SpeedEvilflux: there is a bug for that17:05
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SpeedEvilPlease Stand By...17:05
E0xhmm when i am playing music and the screen is locked i press the power button to check the time and the player get pause for a few seconds , somebody experience this too ?17:05
crashanddieGAN900: if it scored a 100, then at one point it scored 2017:05
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SpeedEvilE0x: stopped - or was it just lagging?17:06
fluxspeedevil, I think I found it17:06
povbotBug 10536: Media Player starts to play music with no user intervention17:06
fluxspeedevil, 1053617:06
E0xSpeedEvil: stopped17:06
SpeedEvil also17:06
povbotBug 6907: Media Player widget suddenly starts music after Phone call ends17:06
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GAN900crashanddie, that sounds like one those white trash jokes I hear every so often. . . .17:06
pexicontext-aware music player!17:07
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E0xSpeedEvil: do happe to you ?17:07
crashanddieGAN900: har har17:07
Tachikomagibts schon location aware profile manager?17:07
fluxspeedevil, I think 6907 is possible a special case of 10536.. I can repeat it now easily 10536 easily, while 6907 apparently isn't easily reprodusible17:07
SpeedEvilE0x: no.17:07
Tachikomais there already  location aware profile manager?17:08
E0xSpeedEvil: you have power kernel ?17:08
SpeedEvilE0x: no.17:08
SpeedEvilE0x: Well - have in the sense that I have a deb somewhere17:08
E0xi mean using it17:08
pexiTachikoma, you should propably turn to steve for that kind of high level innovations :)17:09
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SpeedEvilI have used it - I'm using stock 1.2 ATM17:09
E0xme too17:09
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crashanddieTachikoma: only english please17:11
crashanddieTachikoma: especially when your sentence contains as many english words as german17:11
lardmanmakes it easier for the non-multi-linguists ;)17:12
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Tachikomacrashanddie: i already wrote the sentence again in english, didn't i?17:17
* timeless_mbp kicks andre17:18
timeless_mbpandre__: if you want us to use the bug tracker17:18
timeless_mbpthen you have to let bugs die17:18
timeless_mbpotherwise, forget it17:18
timeless_mbpa bug which is marked as fixed in a release can't be reopened17:18
timeless_mbpit needs a new bug <period>17:18
Maceri think refit broke my hd in my macbook17:18
Macerthe drive is good but i cant wipe it or reinitialize it17:19
andre__timeless_mbp, disagree17:19
timeless_mbpwell, forget about us using it17:19
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timeless_mbpyou can't redact release notes17:19
timeless_mbponce you've published them, they're published17:19
timeless_mbpwe do not need just five bugs17:19
timeless_mbp'1 browser crashes'17:19
timeless_mbp'2 browser is slow'17:20
timeless_mbp'3 browser ui sucks17:20
timeless_mbp'4 browser input methods are broken17:20
timeless_mbp'5 browser should do something else17:20
timeless_mbpwe could keep reopening those 5 bugs forever17:20
timeless_mbpbut that doesn't make them good bugs17:20
timeless_mbpif a bug is 'fixed' in that code has changed in order to 'fix' it17:20
timeless_mbpthen a new bug needs to exist to track a new code fix17:20
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crashanddieTachikoma: just saying17:20
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Tachikomacrashanddie: yeah, i just mixed channels up, am aware of that :)17:21
fralshow much is a ticket for helsinki metro?17:21
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timeless_mbpfrals: ~2eur?17:21
timeless_mbpwalking is cheaper :)17:22
fralscba to walk from this hotel to centre17:22
timeless_mbpwhere are you and where are you going?17:22
fralsholiday inn helsinki west17:22
fralsgoing -> centre:ish17:22
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fralsor, if i dont go to sleep :p17:22
timeless_mbpa tram is ~1.80 EUR17:22
andre__timeless_mbp, ok, I'll forget about you. np17:23
timeless_mbpbut to take the "direct" tram, you need to walk to radison  seeside17:23
infobottimeless_mbp meant: but to take the "direct" tram, you need to walk to radison  seaside17:23
timeless_mbpthe tram where you are would work if you transfer when you meet the 317:24
timeless_mbpbut it saves you 20eurocents :)17:24
timeless_mbpthe walk is ~15mins17:24
timeless_mbpthrough "scenic" helsinki :)17:24
fralsi have a feeling ill see enough of helsinki in the coming weeks that i can safely take the metro now ;)17:25
timeless_mbpthey get jaded so fast17:27
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GAN900timeless_mbp, interesting position.17:32
* GAN900 had always just reopened in the past.17:32
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GAN900andre__, hey, with as many regressions as Nokia ships it'll make everybody look better.17:34
GAN900We get more bugs filed17:34
GAN900Nokia gets to pad out their numbers with pretend fixes.17:34
GAN900It's a win-win.17:34
GAN900timeless_mbp, if you don't want this to be an issue, doing a better job testing or stop marking bugs pretend FIXED, eh? :P17:35
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Stskeepsscary, just saw someone with a debian tshirt17:41
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CorsacI often saw ones17:41
GAN900Stskeeps, weird.17:41
Corsacsometime including myself ¬¬17:42
* GAN900 wears his MeeGo every so often.17:42
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timeless_mbpGAN900: so17:44
timeless_mbpi'm pretty sure it was *fixed*17:44
timeless_mbpand that the system people broke the api later17:44
alteregoI say someone with an ubuntu messenger bag yesterday, that was quite sweet. :D17:44
timeless_mbpthat's not our fault17:44
infobotalterego meant: I saw someone with an ubuntu messenger bag yesterday, that was quite sweet. :D17:44
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GAN900timeless_mbp, well, that sounds like a new bug, then.17:46
ShadowJKTo bug reporters it's only a new bug if the reporters too see it in the fixed state at some point :-)17:46
* GAN900 's screen clicks when you press near the Nokia logo.17:47
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ShadowJKOne thing that's good in Ovi Maps is the search17:48
timeless_mbpGAN900: my screen just always clicks :)17:48
alteregoGAN900: 'ine vibrates :P17:48
timeless_mbpand that was my point...17:49
ShadowJKSygic's search is so fragile it needs local knowledge to work :/17:49
timeless_mbpShadowJK: are you sending feedback to sygic?17:50
crashanddieGAN900: I found a way to get in everywhere :D17:50
ShadowJKtimeless_mbp, I did in their own thread before they realized tmo is a wasteland :)17:51
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timeless_mbpShadowJK: heh17:51
timeless_mbpyou should know better!17:51
timeless_mbpsend your feedback through their system17:52
GAN900alterego / timeless_mbp, vibrating being different than the peizo-plate like clicking I get when I press it.17:52
timeless_mbpGAN900: my n900 is off :)17:52
GAN900ShadowJK, Ovi's search is amazingly useless.17:52
timeless_mbpor has the screen locked17:52
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ShadowJKGAN900, it works wonderfully I think17:52
Tachikomatimeless_mbp: is there anything about OVi not amazingly useless?17:53
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ShadowJKLike, you can enter the address all on one line, and it figures out what you mean17:53
timeless_mbpTachikoma: there's stuff that's amazingly amusing17:53
timeless_mbpdoes that count?17:53
Tachikomatimeless_mbp: ok, that is true17:53
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alteregoGAN900: I've noticed that there's GSM interferrence during my phone calls unless I apply pressure to the top side with the power button. I think it might be realted to a drop not so long ago :H17:53
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Tachikomai met some ovi marketing people in the city the other week17:53
alteregoat least, I don't remember it happening prior to that.17:53
ShadowJKSygic wants you to enter street address, street number, city, town (and you get 0 results if you don't know that city means region or town means village, or if you don't know what random entity is entered into the village field in their database)17:54
GAN900ShadowJK, I can't find anything I search for by name.17:54
Tachikomawhen i asked about ovi and n900 they were suddenly very quiet17:54
alteregonot sure if it warrants insurance use though.17:54
timeless_mbpTachikoma: heh17:54
ShadowJKLike, I had problems finding my own address in Sygic, I basically had to bruteforce try combinations of my address, and things that I wouldn't normally put in my address, before it found it17:55
GAN900crashanddie, you look like a homeless person in that picture. :P17:55
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ShadowJKand Ovi Maps is just.. I put in the street name and it says oh there are two streets like that in the world, did you mean this one or that one17:55
crashanddieGAN900: yeah, just a quick try17:55
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crashanddieGAN900: not much better than your avatar, though17:55
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GAN900crashanddie, :D17:56
* GAN900 needs to update his avatar.17:56
alteregoi actually quite like Nokia Maps on the N90017:56
digitalstimulusooh navigation.  I used to have the map application that came with n810 until they evaporated, now I have found navit.  Anyone know of a different program for n810 / Diablo?17:57
alteregoEspecially now it remembers which view I prefer (night mode).17:57
Tachikomathe update with 1.2 however broke the roouting with ovi maps on n900 for me17:57
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alteregoTachikoma: really? works fine for me, flash or ota update?17:57
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digitalstimulusor does anyone know if it is possible to access the n810 GPS receiver through USB?17:58
Tachikomai click on the route icon, then i get one field saying "your gps location" as point A and can enter something in the next field as point B. Then it searches and once it found B, the first entry "Your GPS location is gone" and what was supposed to be the end point i wnat to got to now the starting point ...17:58
Tachikomaalterego: ota, afterwards flashed.17:59
Tachikomaboth, emmc and root17:59
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Tachikomait's just totally weird17:59
alteregohow so?17:59
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Tachikomawell, the starting point is there and set to my gps location until i add something i want to go to18:01
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alteregomaybe there's a problem between the N900 and what ever is directly behind you :P I have to admit, it took me a couple of times to get routing to work properly.18:02
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crashanddieGAN900: for $74 you can get a lifetime press card from the International Freelance Photographer Organisation...18:02
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toresbefor less than a dollar you can print your own, which is rarely confirmed.18:03
toresbeOftentimes, an L lens is enough in itself.18:04
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lardmanah, the wonders of Windows, reboot time, bbl18:04
crashanddietoresbe: nope, it ain't18:04
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crashanddietoresbe: at least, not where I live18:05
GAN900toresbe, the press card sounds cheaper. :P18:05
toresbecrashanddie: that contradicts my experience, at least18:05
crashanddietoresbe: do you live where I do?18:05
toresbeI don't know. Do you live in Norway?18:05
crashanddienope, so mileage may vary18:05
toresbecrashanddie: One time I got away by just attaching one of those flash holder things for cameras without hot shoes.18:05
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toresbeThat embiggened the camera enough to get me into a movie set.18:06
crashanddietoresbe: france is extremely anal on photography laws, though yes, big lens usually means they take you seriously18:06
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crashanddiewhich goes to show how clueless people are about photography as a whole18:07
toresbeHeh. i liked this dialog box.18:07
toresbe"No stream founds in file, cannot proceed." <Denial> <Acceptance>18:07
toresbeboth quit the program. :)18:07
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MohammadAGRX-51how the hell is my nick in use...18:13
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pupnik_  nice18:14
Termanacross-channel link posting faggatry detected18:15
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FauxFauxDoes anyone actually know what this freemantle/ssu/205 repo is (that my device shipped with), as apposed to the /mc0?18:28
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styleHi, How can I set my n900 to connect mobile internet automatically?18:30
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SpeedEvilstyle: hmm. Aha18:36
GAN900style, in the connection settings.18:37
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styleit just says "no saved available networks" and then I've to choose it manually. before PR1.2 update it worked automatically :/18:37
emcHi, I've seen you can upload maemo apps to the OVI store. Is it also possible to upload ringtones/videos and wallpapers to the OVI store?18:37
SpeedEvilstyle: Go to settings in the app menu. Then internet connections. Select 'connet automatically'18:37
SpeedEvilSelect 't-mobile internet' or whatever18:37
styleSpeedEvil: ah! thanks dude!18:38
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SpeedEvilemc: yes - at least it was - there were wallpapers.18:38
BCMMdoes the n900 do 802.11n?18:39
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emcSpeedEvil: this option seems to be gone.18:40
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SpeedEvilnot without
SpeedEvil(which would be silly)18:41
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BCMM"There is currently no text in this page"18:42
SpeedEvilemc: what option?18:42
* SpeedEvil knows little of the ovi store.18:42
BCMMprobably because that wiki doesn't use /wiki/18:42
BCMMi thought as of last week stuff was rather more advanced than that page suggests?18:45
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Tachikomai really like that n900 has support for usb host mode. After everyone said it will never appear :)18:45
SpeedEvilIt's not there yet.18:46
SpeedEvilA dedicated team of people is trying various approaches.18:46
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SpeedEvilIt'll with luck - be user-ready in a few weeks.18:46
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TachikomaSpeedEvil: i don;t really ned it, i just like the way things go on n90018:47
Tachikomai had it with n800 and never used it beside for testing ...18:48
Tachikomaoh wait - no, i actually used18:48
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TachikomaI connected a sisusb vga adapter and was able to connect my n800 to a monitor :) Well - but i also just tested that though ...18:49
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Tachikomaoh - and is it true that skype video phoning does not work between n900 and n800 - or is this my problem only again18:50
andre__Skype video is supported on N800? that would be news to me18:51
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DocScrutinizerBCMM: last week's stuff was missleading as people thought the one success story on a testing kernel badly patched to death was already the real thing. Mohammad's success was first working hostmode for a special usb memstick, without any special adapters or kickstart PC, so it basically was a POC for the HW. We now know it *can* be done. But there's still a lot of work until it works "like on a linux"19:01
* FauxFaux can't get enough free space on / to do anything. /o\19:01
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BCMMDocScrutinizer: i didn't think it was gonna be in extras tomorrow - i just thought that knowing it was definitely possible was new19:02
BCMMDocScrutinizer: "special" memstick?19:03
andre__FauxFaux, ?19:03
DocScrutinizernot really. We seen hostmode working with kickstart PC (egoshin's method) for quite some time19:03
FauxFauxandre__: I think I've tried everything.19:03
DocScrutinizerBCMM: one particular menstick19:03
BCMMoh, specific19:03
DocScrutinizerBCMM: it doesn't work with arbitrary brands19:03
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DocScrutinizerseems with most memsticks the controller enters a suspend state which it can't get out anymore19:08
DocScrutinizerdue to the patched-dead kernel plus script doing something wrong19:08
DocScrutinizerwe're working on a clean implementation19:09
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BCMMDocScrutinizer: just looked at the tmo thread - yeah, it kinda got kicked to death with "hurry up" and "can i have a copy"19:11
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MohammadAGX-Fade, ping19:12
dr34manybody use n900 with pc software? i tried pc suite from nokia and ovi suite somehow it wont really recognize the phone to sync with pc or import contacts etc. or create a backup19:12
DocScrutinizerso we moved on to "somewhere else" ;-)19:12
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MohammadAGX-Fade, could you take down the USBcontrol package? it's quite useless and it's causing a lot of spam on the forums19:12
BCMMDocScrutinizer: i guess the n900 is getting attention from a lot of people who aren't really familiar with open-source19:13
MohammadAGi.e trolls19:13
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BCMMMohammadAG: that too, but also people who just aren't used to developers being on the same forum as them19:13
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BCMMi mean, i'm pretty excited about hostmode, but i'm trying not to harrass the people developing it19:14
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MohammadAGI'm pretty excited my device "has a positive defect" :P19:14
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: your USB memstick is the device19:14
DocScrutinizerwith the 'defect'19:15
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, worked with 3 mem sticks19:15
BCMMbut i've posted to the bugzillas of i dunno how many places, and more or less know when information is useful and when ti isn#t19:15
BCMMMohammadAG: defect being the n900 hardware having hostmode although it shouldn't, or what?19:15
MohammadAGcool, inverting xchat colours make it terminal-y19:15
MohammadAGBCMM, idk, t-tan just says it's defective cause hostmode worksforme19:15
MohammadAGI took my F-F adapter to copy some file for someone19:16
BCMMMohammadAG: your specific n900, you mean?19:16
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: then it's probably a timing issue19:16
MohammadAGit failed on the first attempt, worked on the second19:16
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, yes, it is a timing issue19:16
MohammadAGwhich isn't really helpful19:16
MohammadAGBCMM, not sure, but I doubt it's really a defect19:17
DocScrutinizeranyway, we'll get rid of those timing issues, once the kernel doesn't need any more special timing to enter hostmode19:17
MohammadAGI only get negative defects19:17
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DocScrutinizeranyway this gets too technical for here, let's take it "somewhere else" please, MohammadAG19:18
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MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, heh19:18
MOUDHey all19:18
Mecein c, is it else if or elseif?19:18
DocScrutinizeryeah I know I started it19:18
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DocScrutinizerelse { if... I'd guess19:20
MOUDI want to overclock my phone. What is the highest speed it can reach?19:20
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BCMMMece: two seperate statements19:20
SpeedEvilDepends if you've got a large fan or not.19:20
Mecek, thanks.19:20
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BCMMMOUD: depends how good your throw is19:20
BCMMoverclocking won't make a great deal of difference though19:20
MOUDi dont want to open or add a fan to it19:20
frosty`BCMM: lol @ throw19:21
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DocScrutinizerMOUD: 3h to burnout is fastest speed you reach doom19:21
Meceok thanks.19:21
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MOUDDocScrutinizer: 3h?19:21
infobot"OK, listen up.  This is your CPU."  apt drops the CPU into a hot frying pan.  "This is your CPU on overclocking.  Any questions?"19:21
MohammadAGyes, is it scrambled?19:22
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MOUDi dont know what you are talking about. :/19:22
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SpeedEvilOverclocking the CPU may compromise its reliaility.19:22
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MohammadAGas well as its lifetime19:22
DocScrutinizerMOUD: We are talking about OVERCLOCKING IS BAD AND SILLY19:22
SpeedEvilThe manufacture warrantes the CPU anyway for only 20000 hours - 80 days - at full speed.19:23
BCMMfrosty`: heh, i wonder which is more likely to ruin your phone - overclocking, or that program that encourages you to throw it in the air...19:23
BCMMMece: afaik, it is syntactically and practically just nesting the conditionals19:23
BCMM(i am a C sorta-newbie though)19:23
frosty`BCMM: put the two together for a good time19:23
MOUDBCMM: i think it;s the app :P19:23
DocScrutinizerwhere full speed is what? 600?19:23
frosty`MOUD: i think you might be wrong :)19:23
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MOUDfrosty`: what if u throw it and somebody spooks you? ;)19:24
Tachikomais there already a project for on n900?19:24
SpeedEvil, it can perform almost real-time decoding on most current PCs19:25
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jacekowskiMOUD: some people managed to get it to almost 1GHz19:26
SpeedEvilThe n900 is around 30 times slower than your average PC19:26
jacekowskinot that slow19:26
DocScrutinizerI got it to 5GHz19:26
SpeedEviljacekowski: yes, that slow.19:26
SpeedEviljacekowski: Kernel compile takes 3h on n900. Around 8 mins on my laptop19:26
MOUDjacekowski: I know but I want to know if someone has reached a higher speed without any modification on the phone19:27
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: around 3 minutes on my server19:27
jacekowskiMOUD: that was without mods19:27
BCMM_SpeedEvil: in CPU speed, yes - but a lot of stuff one does on the PC is slowed down mostly by HDD seek time19:27
jaskaiirc kernel compile took ~2 minutes in 200419:27
SpeedEvilBCMM: true.19:27
SpeedEvilBCMM: but a voice recogniser is pretty much purely a compute task19:27
MohammadAG<DocScrutinizer> I got it to 5GHz19:27
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MOUDjacekowski: i see19:27
MohammadAGpfft, I got it to 1THz19:28
solrizehard disks on pc's for any seek intensive stuff is pretty obsolete19:28
solrizedisks are tape (bulk storage)19:28
BCMM_SpeedEvil: i was lagging out when that was posted, i guess - need a new adsl router, or need to turn mobilehotspot back on and annoy t-mobile19:28
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solrizesystem programs etc = SSD's19:28
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: only with a flux compensator and a migration filter19:28
jacekowskisolrize: SSDs are slow19:28
Tachikomajacekowski: what exactly does "mod" mean in relation to n900. I saw threads on talk that ask people to show their mods but did not read them. Is that just standing for "modification" or is it something more specific19:28
SpeedEvilRAM FTW.19:28
jacekowskisolrize: and wear quite fast for any real use19:28
BCMM_anyway, compiling sources just happens to be almost totally CPU-bound, in my experience19:28
solrizenah, not any more, they fixed that19:28
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, also needed a mugwarmer19:28
jacekowskisolrize: you can't fix that19:28
SpeedEvilBCMM_: Well - not really even on n900.19:28
MohammadAGSpeedEvil, sigh, if only you can write to RAM19:29
jacekowskisolrize: they added better wear leveling into them19:29
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: at 1THz the device itself warms mugs nicely19:29
SpeedEvilBCMM_: make -j4 is actually significantly faster than make -j1 on n90019:29
BCMM_SpeedEvil: hmm?19:29
TachikomaDocScrutinizer: with some labambaregulator you can go even higher19:29
BCMM_SpeedEvil: why is that?19:29
jacekowskisolrize: but ssd can't take as much writes as any HDD19:29
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SpeedEvilBCMM_: I would imagine it's a fair number of small file writes.19:29
jacekowskisolrize: and 15k RPM hdd is faster anyways19:29
BCMM_SpeedEvil: yes, but why does -j4 help with that?19:29
solrizeyeah but when you do the math it's enough for practical purposes19:30
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MOUDnow... changing my topic... Yesterday I installed Zoutube and a few hours later there was an update for it but I didnt like. Is there a way to "downgrade" (is it a word?) the program?19:30
SpeedEvilBCMM_: It makes it run 4 compiles at once.19:30
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BCMM_SpeedEvil: yes, but why does that help?19:30
jacekowskiwell, you are supposed to use -j<num_cores+1>19:30
jacekowskiBCMM_: load all cores19:30
SpeedEvilBCMM_: So that when one stalls on IO, the other job that's not stalled kicks in.19:30
valdynsome ssd are slow maybe19:30
BCMM_SpeedEvil: i was gonna say, is -j4 also faster than -j2?19:30
DocScrutinizerBCMM_: concurrent CPU and IO19:31
solrizessd's can saturate sata 1 and maybe sata 2, and of course you can raid them just like hdd's19:31
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BCMM_ah, that makes sense19:31
SpeedEvilBCMM_: Very marginally, yes19:31
jacekowskisolrize: sata 2 can do 3GBit/s19:31
jacekowskisolrize: find me ssd that can do 1/3rd of that19:31
BCMM_i suppose compiling a single module works something like: read stuff in, process; write19:31
BCMM_such that having something else read while the other is processing helps?19:31
jacekowskisolrize: sequential read19:31
SpeedEvilBCMM_: sort-of.19:31
DocScrutinizerBCMM_: exactly19:31
solrizejacekowski, the cheap intel x25m my laptop is faster than that19:32
jacekowskisolrize: and flash slows down with age19:32
SpeedEvilBCMM_: there may be 4 or 5 source files, and link stages going on19:32
BCMM_hmm, that would probably be less true on a hard disk, since sometimes two would try and read at once, and seek time would happen19:32
SpeedEvilBCMM_: yeah - flash means that read seeks are out of the picture.19:32
BCMM_anyway, compilation is still mostly cpu-dependant19:32
BCMM_(otherwise stuff like distcc would perform terribly)19:32
greenflyjacekowski: can any sata 2 drives actually push 3gbit/s?19:33
solrizeflash is a huge speedup on this laptop, of course it replaced a laptop hdd and not a server raid system19:33
BCMM_i want a desktop ssd19:33
SpeedEvilBCMM_: Indeed - which is a good comparison to another task that's seek dependant - like the original question was asked about - voice recognition19:33
jacekowskigreenfly: no19:33
greenflyhaving official support for a certain amount of bandwidth doesn't mean you can actually push the data that fast19:33
greenflyso it's more or less irrelevant19:33
BCMM_i'm pretty sure there are some things i do both on my desktop and on the n900 that are faster on the phone19:33
valdynBCMM_: sure, seeks19:33
solrizei love my ssd19:34
greenflywhere SSDs would come in handy is the situation with your kernel compilation where you'd like to do other things with your computer at the same time19:34
SpeedEvilBCMM_: Yes. General computing without much IO, that are not sped up by the DSP are not one.19:34
jacekowskigreenfly: that's why you have cache19:34
SpeedEvilBCMM_: Which pretty much describes voice recognition.19:34
BCMM_SpeedEvil: yeah, i've gone all offtopic because i wasn't actually in here when the voice recognition was mentioned, sorry19:34
greenflyjacekowski: for which? saturating the bandwidth or random seeks?19:34
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jacekowskigreenfly: additional 4G of ram costs half of ssd19:35
jacekowskigreenfly: yes19:35
greenflyjacekowski: yeah, file cache works great for files you've already read19:35
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jacekowskigreenfly: read ahead19:35
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jacekowskigreenfly: + delayed writes19:35
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BCMM_i'd like to see some kind of system to use a small SSD like a persistent version of caching in ram19:35
greenflybut doesn't help you when the system boots or you do something new19:35
jacekowskiBCMM_: tam can push 4-5Gbytes/s19:36
jacekowskiBCMM_: ram*19:36
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jacekowskiwell, i had a lot of ssds here19:36
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BCMM_jacekowski: for large numbers of small reads (like starting most software), actual read speed surely has negligible impact compared to HDD seek times?19:37
jacekowskiall tested with OpenPerformanceTest.icf19:37
[DarkGUNMAN]has anyone here had any luck with dbus-switchboard and changing the rtsp association?19:37
jacekowskiBCMM_: that's why you defragment19:37
solrize  x25e raid benchmark19:38
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BCMM_jacekowski: defragmentation won't put all the libraries and resources a program loads in a nice line on the disk :)19:38
greenflydefrag also won't figure out which two programs are going to hammer the disks for different data at the same time19:39
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SpeedEvilBCMM_: It will if you do it right19:39
solrizethese days on a server i'd even think of putting the system files and /tmp on a large ramdisk19:39
greenflynot to mention I thought we were talking about Linux in here. defrag is archaic19:39
BCMM_SpeedEvil: how can one do it right, especially if other programs use a different combination of libraries including some of the same?19:39
greenflya modern file system shouldn't need it19:39
valdynsolrize: because you think you can be wiser than the kernel heuristics?19:39
BCMM_greenfly: there are still ways to cause fragmentation19:39
greenflysolrize: creating your own ramdisk is an overclocker kid thing, kernel knows best19:40
greenflyBCMM_: oh certainly, but it's relatively minimal in a decent modern file system19:40
BCMM_solrize: if you had sufficient RAM, they would tend towards being cached anyway19:40
SpeedEvilBCMM_: You can fragment it just right so that boot is a mostly linear read19:40
BCMM_SpeedEvil: has anybody actually done that?19:40
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SpeedEvilI recall some people saying they'd done tests of hacked-together tools.19:41
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SpeedEvilIt's not really hard to do19:41
solrizei don't think that's right, the kernel doesn't know that /tmp is a temporary file system.  if it's on a hard disk, anything that you write to /tmp will eventually actually get written to disk so that it won't be lost if the system loses power.  the kernel doesn't realize that it's ok for /tmp to be wiped on reboot19:41
valdynits also not as useful as one might think19:41
SpeedEvilyou start out with an instrumented kernel that spits out all files opened say19:41
SpeedEvilvaldyn: It will speed up boot. It won't speed up much else.19:41
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valdynSpeedEvil: yea, but not by much19:41
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SpeedEvilDepends - with a well planned parallel boot starrt - possibly not19:42
solrizeand the kernel heuristics aren't that great for normal paging either, because the kernel doesn't know which pages are likely to be accessed again a long time later19:42
jacekowskisolrize: well, on lot of systems /tmp is mounted as tmpfs19:42
solrizei guess that can help19:43
greenflysolrize: the point is that any file you open, the kernel stores in RAM. on Linux the kernel keeps files in RAM if it can. Over time free RAM gets close to zero due to this19:43
greenflyso creating a ramdisk is redundant19:43
jacekowskigreenfly: linux filesystems do fragment as well19:43
GAN900Hey, look, a book on MeeGo dev.19:43
greenflybecause the kernel knows better than you do, which files should stay in RAM19:43
solrizegreenfly, that's the thing, the kernel caches EVERYTHING instead of only caching what needs to be cached19:43
greenflyjacekowski: did I say they don't?19:43
solrizeand so the important stuff gets evicted by stuff that won't actually be accessed again19:44
SpeedEvilsolrize: But throwing away that cache is almost free19:44
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solrizeno it's not because then you have to re-read the stuff that got flushed19:44
jacekowskisolrize: nope19:44
greenflysolrize: eventually things that aren't accessed are replaced by new things that are. again, it would still know better than you would, and be able to react faster to the changing system19:44
jacekowskisolrize: kernel does a lot more with caching19:44
jacekowskisolrize: than just lru19:44
valdynsolrize: youre not the first one with this idea, its been tested for a decade at least, and its not showing benefit19:44
greenflyso creating a ramdisk in this day and age to cache things is redundant and in a way could hurt your performance19:45
valdynsolrize: for a decade just on linux19:45
SpeedEvilgreenfly: You're assuming that it can know. For example - play a 1G mediafile, and it will cache it all and flush your cache19:45
jonne|reconnecteis there a way to put the n900 in standby/sleep or something?19:45
SpeedEvilI think there is a advise_reading_once or something19:45
greenflySpeedEvil: are you doing to store your media files in a ramdisk?19:45
SpeedEviljonne|reconnecte: why19:45
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: 1G sequential read will not flush cache19:45
greenflyer, s/doing/going/19:45
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SpeedEvilI know it did in the past19:45
solrizeit does seem to do that19:45
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: it might mess up buffers little bit19:45
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: but dentry and inode cache will stay intact19:46
solrizei know when i do large file transfers it eats all the ram19:46
jonne|reconnectebooting takes ages, and i'm going somewhere where i won't be able to charge it often19:46
fralso/ VDVsx19:46
SpeedEviljonne|reconnecte: With it normally setup, you should get ~140 hours charge.19:46
jacekowskisolrize: if you have free ram it will use it19:46
SpeedEviljonne|reconnecte: If you don't touch it.19:46
MOUDwhere can I download the version before the latest version of Zoutube?19:46
greenflyanyway, even in that scenario, how is sequestering off a large segment of your RAM and storing files in that ramdisk better than having all that extra RAM available for the kernel cache?19:46
jacekowskisolrize: but policy for dropping buffers and caches is different19:46
VDVsxhey frals19:46
SpeedEviljonne|reconnecte: yes19:46
jonne|reconnecteit's dead in a day for me19:46
jonne|reconnectebut then again, i can't resist using it19:46
SpeedEviljonne|reconnecte: that is with GSM on, and logged into a wifi network, responding to pings.19:47
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jacekowskigreenfly: you can cause infinite delay for write for temp files19:47
greenflybut anyway I thought the whole ramdisk / kernel cache issue was well understood by now19:47
solrizejacek, ok, so suppose that i open a browser, look at some web pages, close the browser, and do a large file copy.  what happens to the pages that had been cached for the now-closed browser?19:47
SpeedEviljonne|reconnecte: get and run powertop. Over ssh19:47
solrizejacekowski, sorry, autocomplete fail ;)19:47
jonne|reconnectei powertop in the maemo repo's?19:47
SpeedEviljonne|reconnecte: this gives you an idea of what's running in the background.19:47
jacekowskisolrize: well, that's browser cache19:47
jacekowskisolrize: not kernel cache19:47
BCMM_what greenfly said - leave the ram free for caching, the stuff will end up in ram anyway19:47
solrizeno, i mean the pages of the browser program segment itself are cached19:47
jacekowskisolrize: stuff from web is never cached by anything except browser19:47
BCMM_if you really need to influence it, have some script read it all into cache at boot19:48
solrizei don't mean caching stuff from the web, i mean caching the browser itself!!!19:48
jacekowskisolrize: 1 - shared libs19:48
SpeedEvil jonne|reconnecte - no.19:48
jacekowskithat will stay in cache19:48
valdynsolrize: browsers use their own caching, that does not just get swapped out because you copied a file19:48
solrizewhy would the shared libs stay in cache after the browser is closed?19:48
SpeedEviljonne|reconnecte: Also - anything that polls over gsm ever is expensive. As is scanning for wireless networks.19:48
greenflysolrize: we are talking about the kernel file cache. the browser binary and any other files it would load, would likely stay cached in RAM provided you had the free RAM to do it19:48
BCMM_solrize: files that have been read stay in cache until there is no room for them19:48
jacekowskisolrize: there are 3 kinds of caches19:49
solrizegreenfly, right, but you do a large file copy that eats all the free ram19:49
jacekowskisolrize: and with some filesystems 419:49
greenflysolrize: because the kernel realizes if it has the free RAM to cache them, why delete them?19:49
jonne|reconnecteso putting it in offline mode when not using it should be great?19:49
SpeedEviljonne|reconnecte: yes.19:49
jacekowskisolrize: dentry, inode, buffers19:49
solrizegreenfly, because something else wants the ram!19:49
jonne|reconnecteand i guess turning off apps19:49
SpeedEviljonne|reconnecte: Unless you've got something that is draining the battery Some widgets are not as idle as they should be.19:49
greenflysolrize: so in your situation, you'd set aside 1GB of RAM that your scenario of a file copy now couldn't use19:49
greenflyso you just stole 1GB of RAM from your system in the hopes that you actually know what files are accessed the most by the system19:49
solrizegreenfly, right, and that is a real world situation that happens all the time19:49
solrizegreenfly, right, and in fact i often DO know what files are accessed the most19:50
jacekowskigreenfly: red the fucking code of memory manager19:50
greenflyagain, it'd be better to give the kernel that 1GB instead of your ramdisk19:50
jacekowskigreenfly: instead of babbling about something you know nothing about19:50
greenfly. . .19:50
solrizegreenfly, i ran a search engine and the only way to get it to perorm tolerably was to "cat index* > /dev/null" a few times an hour, so i had a cron job for that19:51
jacekowskiand i'm going home19:51
valdynthe question is if browser startup is even limited by disk speed19:51
solrizebecause the kernel kept flushing it otherwise19:51
greenflyjacekowski: nice ad-hom19:52
jacekowskiflush is done as soon as possible19:52
Kegetyssurely you _can_ know more than the kernel of future file use, but such cases are rare and not "typical"19:52
jacekowskiso flush might occur 1s after write() call from app19:52
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jacekowskiagain - there is difference between flush and drop19:52
jonne|reconnectehmm, that powertop output looks different than the one that comes with ubuntu19:52
jonne|reconnectenot sure how to interpret it19:53
jacekowskijonne|reconnecte: it's different powertop19:53
jacekowskijonne|reconnecte: ubuntu powertop is intel powertop19:53
Kegetysif you (do work)(watch a bunch of movies)(do work again) then the movie caching can push all your work stuff off the cache and it needs to be read again, and the caching doesnt necessarily help with the movies at all since its mostly just sequential read19:53
IkarusKegetys: erm, actually the caching can help19:53
Tachikoma"oh - and is it true that skype video phoning does not work between n900 and n800 - or is this my problem only again" - sorry i mixed it up - i meant googletalk ...19:53
Ikarusit will allow the HDD (eMMC) to suspend19:53
jonne|reconnectei'll put it in pastebin19:54
* satmd just noticed that rtcom does not use maemo's certificate manager but hardcoded /usr/lib/ssl/certs19:54
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jonne|reconnecte -> this is my powertop output19:55
Kegetysof course the caching can help with the movie watching and no caching would likely result in an awful experience, but the point is that having the kernel cache big parts of movie files will mean your work files wont necessarily be in the cache anymore and need to be re-read19:55
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jonne|reconnecteso C4 is like 'idle' proc or something?19:55
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Kegetyssince there is no way for the kernel to know that you are going to return to work after watching those movies (vista attempts to do that too though with superfetch)19:56
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jonne|reconnecteno, wait19:56
valdynKegetys: work files are typically not cached, but in ram19:56
valdynKegetys: they would have to be swapped out, not dropped19:56
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valdynKegetys: and when you swap out is tunable and beside that you can just not use swap19:57
Kegetyswhat are "work files" that are not cached?19:57
Kegetysand where are they cached if not in ram?19:57
valdynKegetys: yea, thats bad wording from me19:58
valdynKegetys: files that are loaded by the application19:58
solrizeexample 1) i open a browser (takes 10 seconds to read in all files/libs from hard disk), close it, and immediately re-open.  the re-open takes 0.1 seconds because of the cache19:58
valdynKegetys: those are not "cached", but "malloced"19:58
solrize2) i open browser, close it, do a kernel compile (takes 10 minutes), and re-open browser.  now all the cached browser pages have been dropped, so it takes (nearly) 10 seconds again19:58
Kegetysif an app freads fileA, then another app reads fileB. how can the kernel know you are going to return to the app that read fileA a hour later and keep that file in the cache when fileB is being read right now?19:59
valdynKegetys: thats that file is read, its not cached19:59
zashyou can do `echo 3 | sudo tee /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches`19:59
valdynKegetys: its loaded into ram by the app, in storage collected with malloc, thats not the same as cache19:59
Kegetysuh... I'm talkign about the OS cache20:00
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valdynKegetys: or as example, if I load a (huge) text document into my editor, then that file is *not* just cached, its loaded explicitely20:01
Kegetysif you had fileA in a ramdisk, reading fileB could not remove it from there. so therefore it could be beneficial in that case, however as said it is not typical20:01
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solrizeit's extremely typical though20:08
solrizeand even if the kernel really does know better, it's still worse :)20:08
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solrizei.e. say browser is in cache and browser is closed.  compile kernel for 30 minutes, then re-open browser (10 seconds), elapsed time 30:1020:09
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solrizeversus: lock browser in ramdisk, so kernel compile takes 32 minutes due to having less available ram, then re-open browser (0.1 sec).  elapsed time: 32:00.1, slower in total because kernel is "smart"20:10
solrizebut really, second example is preferable from user point of view20:10
solrizehalf hour compile = go get lunch, 30 minutes and 32 minutes are the same thing20:10
solrizebut 0.1 sec to open a browser vs 10 sec is a 100x slowdown20:10
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Kegetyssmartest thing in that case would be to not close the browser though ;)20:11
Tachikomaandre__: sorry, as mentioned before, i was wondering about googletalk video between n800 and n900. I get some unsupported codec error on n800 and was wondering if that is supposed to be that way.20:11
solrizeKegetys, no i don't think so, its pages still get paged out20:11
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solrizeanyway with the ssd the browser opens fast enough even when not cached :)   hard disks almost seem intolerable20:12
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Shapeshiftermhh. google navigation is now available here as an android app. has anyone heard of an api?20:19
Shapeshifterlike, europe20:20
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Shapeshifteroh and canada apparently20:20
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SpeedEvilIt's not sold as an API service for the simple reason it's to promote android20:21
Shapeshifterimo that is by far the most awesome feature on android. Hope there's away to port it.20:21
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ShapeshifterI guessed :)20:21
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Shapeshifterit's brilliant imo.20:21
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MeceEcho... echo... cho... o...  ...20:48
GAN900Mece, shhhh, we're napping.20:49
Meceoh, sorry. I didn't realize.20:49
* Mece walks around quietly20:49
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* MohammadAG changes into a ninja and kills Mece, silently20:53
* marmoute ears something20:54
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solrizewhat does it do?  is it like google maps?  (re google navigation)21:05
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* MohammadAG checks calendar21:13
MohammadAGnope, it's a wednesday21:13
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luke-jrhttp://➽.ws/흑  <-- big USB21:16
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frosty`haha, how did you find that luke-jr?21:17
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luke-jrfrosty`: someone posted it in another channel21:17
meceanyone who know c around?21:18
solrizemece yes i'm sure lots of ppl here know c ;)21:18
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MohammadAGyeah, I met it once, it shot me in the foot21:19
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meceMohammadAG, indeed.21:19
frosty`still recovering, MohammadAG?21:19
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MohammadAGfrosty`, nope, I just threw it out the window21:21
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solrizemece did you have a question?21:31
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mecesolarize, well I have a g_string_append(text, something) and I would like something to be " / ", I put just that there but it didn't work out. now I have gchar *spacer and spacer = " / " and then g_string_append(text, spacer)21:33
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mecesolarize, at least it compiles... :)21:36
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RST38hBack. Finally.21:42
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solrizei don't know what g_string_append does, that sounds more like a maemo lib thing than a c question.  but it sounds like you don't really understand C pointers?21:42
solrizeok, it's a gnome func21:43
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solrizeok, gchar is a typedef for char21:43
solrizeyou should be able to say g_string_append(text, " / ")21:44
solrizewhere text is already a GString21:44
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FauxFauxOne suspects reflashing would be easier had I not lost my usb cable. >.<21:53
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MohammadAGSyslogs, only present to fill your /22:00
MohammadAGNokia-N900:/var/log# du -h22:00
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BCMM_MohammadAG: what logs do you have?22:04
BCMM_i have practically nothing there, and couldn't find my ssh logs22:04
BCMM_(i will confess i was too lazy to look at teh config files and find out if it was actually logging and to where)22:04
MohammadAGyou don't have syslogd installed22:04
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mmarc__a strange error here:22:06
mmarc__dpkg: dependency problems prevent configuration of maemo-core-runtime:22:06
mmarc__ maemo-core-runtime depends on sudo; however:22:06
mmarc__  Package sudo is not configured yet.22:06
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MohammadAG(and most probably on Ubuntu 10.04)22:07
mmarc__Yes, I use Maemo SDK 5 installer on lucid.22:07
mmarc__They got unscrewed?..22:07
infobotrumour has it, maemosdk is
MohammadAGfollow the 10.04 fix there22:08
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MohammadAG to be more precise22:09
mmarc__do you mean echo "vm.mmap_min_addr = 0" >> /etc/sysctl.conf ?22:11
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MohammadAGAdded it to the known issues22:12
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MohammadAGthat page needs a troubleshooting section22:12
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mmarc__Sorry, I happen to bypass it because I've execued python installer22:12
MohammadAGYeah, I know what you mean22:12
MohammadAGthe scripts need updating22:13
MohammadAGand Ubuntu needs a kick in the arse22:13
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MohammadAGbasically, it's not your fault22:13
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Shapeshiftersolrize: it's like free guided navigation + streetview22:14
Shapeshiftersolrize: which means augmented reality22:14
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solrizeoh neat22:17
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mmarc__MohammadAG, thank you22:23
MohammadAGnp :)22:23
MohammadAGthanks the original post if you want22:24
MohammadAGit's not my method :)22:24
MohammadAGthis one
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* infobot mooooooooo! I am cow, hear me moo, I weigh twice as much as you. I am cow, eating grass, methane gas comes out my ass22:50
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Mece_'ello ello22:52
Mece_do you think this is an ok way to display music files in filemanager:
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frosty`Mece_: can you make the second line a smaller font?22:54
Mece_not really.22:56
mmarc__can we put files transparently to scratchbox from the host system?22:56
Mece_frosty, well possibly, but that's a totally different matter.22:56
Mece_err.. yes22:57
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Mece_mmarc_ do you mean access and manipulate them from host?22:57
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mmarc__Mece_: yeah, I've got a source code tar ball to take into scratchbox for compilation,22:58
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Mece_mmarc_,  /scratchbox/users/username/home/username/  replace username with, you guessed it, your username.22:59
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mmarc__Mece_: cool, thanks! It is now compiling...23:05
mmarc__So, what about plain OpenGL apps? Do they work out-of-box on maemo?23:05
mmarc__No GTK, as far as I know23:05
noobmonk3yEvvvvvvvvening alls23:06
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mmarc__Is that correct, that porting OpenGL 2.0 apps to OpenGL ES is not neccessary?23:08
lcukmmarc__, well since opengles requires fragment shaders23:09
lcukif your original gl2 code uses exclusively fragment shaders and the specific subset that gles caters for you are good to go23:09
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mmarc__lcuk: well, I've got OpenGL 1.1-compatible code, I think. No shaders at all.23:10
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lcukso makr your own mind up :)23:11
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jacekowskimmarc__: there are things that opengl have and gles don't23:12
mmarc__lcuk: I'm not very familiar with it, unfortunately, but there is a normal thing to expect backward compatibility. Your answer sounds so tricky, that it makes me to think ES is not compatible with 1.1/2.0 at all!23:12
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jacekowskimmarc__: just try to compile it23:13
jacekowskimmarc__: it isn't23:13
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jacekowskimmarc__: GLES is a subset of GL23:13
mmarc__oh, i see... ok, let try! :)23:13
lcukmmarc__, where did you hear backwards compatability was normal?23:13
jacekowskilcuk: everybody seems to pretend that it is23:13
mmarc__yeah =)23:13
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jacekowskiamd and intel was waiting 30 years to add 8 registers to cpus23:14
MacerBusyBox v1.10.2 (Debian built-in shell (ash)23:14
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jacekowskiand they had to add 32 more bits as well23:14
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Mecemy phone rebooted. perhaps my new filemanager isn't that stable.23:19
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lucentI've had a spurious reboot with PR1.2 also23:19
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lucentI think it was after installing a lot of new software and not rebooting23:20
Mecelucent. well this was when I opened filemanager and scrolled down fast right after the list became visible.23:21
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Mecehmm. can't seem to recrete.23:22
infobotMece meant: hmm. can't seem to recreate.23:22
Meceanyone wanna try the modified filemanager?23:23
lucentah.  I'm signed into IRC today searching for more information about the Maemo port of KeePassX23:23
lucentit's become unusable with the latest update23:24
lucentglad the update happened, but the UI is just garbage23:24
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Meceactually it's the library that the filemanager and file chooser uses that is modified.23:24
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Aarihello boys23:24
xDaReaperxanyone tried out USB host mode yet ?23:25
Meceoh well. I'm out. tataa.23:25
Aarithe N900 dont have enough power for usb hosting23:25
lucentxDaReaperx: I suspect that's a common question here23:25
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MeceMohammadAG LOL23:25
xDaReaperxoh lol23:25
xDaReaperxso does it actually work ?23:26
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lucentI think it was premature to have post an article saying that it "works"23:26
MeceMohammadAG, what have you hosted on your usb?23:26
SpeedEvillucent: yes.23:26
Aariit dont work23:26
xDaReaperxhmm ok23:26
Meceaari is wrong.23:26
SpeedEvilAari: The n900 has 200mA23:26
xDaReaperxi didn't find the article though even after i googled23:26
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xDaReaperxso it makes sense23:26
SpeedEvilAari: That is quite enough power for most keyboards, mice, some flash drives.23:26
SpeedEvilAnd you can plug it into a hub.23:27
SpeedEvilxDaReaperx: It's really not ready yet.23:27
Meceok really gonna go now though.23:27
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MohammadAGMece, a javelin23:27
SpeedEvilWe're at the 'works for some people, not for others, with some peripherals, not others' stage.23:27
MohammadAGand I'm not afraid to use it23:27
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Aariyea but you have to fuck around with convertor cables and all that shit23:28
lucentSpeedEvil: note, that state is where rockbox devs exist perpetually.23:28
MohammadAGwhich is quite annoying23:28
SpeedEvillucent: It's getting there - there is progress being made.23:29
lucentit's good work ^_^23:29
* SpeedEvil is also wondering how to optimise mp3 playback time.23:29
lucentSpeedEvil: the 50kusd Nokia competition does not apply to USB host mode in a novel application, does it?23:30
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lucentwould be nifty!23:30
SpeedEvillucent: The closing date is too close23:30
SpeedEvilIt's unlikely to be got working by that time23:30
MohammadAGlucent, pretty doubtful23:30
SpeedEvilit's a couple of days time isn't it?23:30
MohammadAGSpeedEvil, it's a hack that screws over certs23:30
MohammadAGeven if we got it to work23:30
SpeedEvilMohammadAG: that too, perhaps.23:30
MohammadAGI doubt we're entitled to enter23:31
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lucentoh hai it is the 12th of june deadline, too bad23:31
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Aariwhy is everybody getting a h423:31
SpeedEvila what?23:31
Aariwhy is everybody getting a hardon over usb host?23:31
SpeedEvilAari: It's useful for some people.23:31
* lucent facepalms23:31
SpeedEvilIf you don't find it so, simply ignore it.23:32
MohammadAGAari, it's the most useful feature for me23:32
Aaribut is it practical?23:32
MohammadAGtoday I tried it out and copied a 2GB file over to a flash for a mate23:32
SpeedEvilAari: You take a F-F adaptor. You take the stock cable. You plug a USB device in. It just works.23:32
MohammadAGoh and guess what, it didn't ra** my battery - much23:32
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Aariso adaptor is necessary then?23:33
Kegetysdoes it (or would it) work with an OTG cable?23:33
SpeedEvilThe F-F adaptor is needed. But this is $3 from ebay23:33
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MohammadAGSpeedEvil, 1.50 shipped!23:33
SpeedEvilWell - the goal is to get it working with the stock cable.23:33
SpeedEvilMohammadAG: oh - sorry. :)23:33
Kegetysok... well I have both ;)23:33
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noobmonk3ydarn laptop gave up the ghost on me23:34
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lucentugh, headache.  I have my passwords stored in keepassx on my N900, since updating keepassx it does not have a usable UI, to log in to bug tracker and submit bug ticket for that I need password from keepassx23:34
Aarithe thing is my external Western Digital 500GB drive has a mini usb not micro, how the hell will it work then?23:34
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noobmonk3yAari, Mini to micro usb converter?23:35
SpeedEvilAari: You take the normal cable for the n900. PLug that into a F-F adaptor. Plug the cable you normally use to plug in your hard drive to your computer to the adaptor. Job done.23:35
Aariyea and loss of speed with convertor23:35
SpeedEvilNo loss of speed.23:35
lcukAari, then make a custom cable23:35
vldcnstIt's digital.23:35
lcuknot exactly a roadblock23:36
lcukmonster gold plated usb cables23:36
lucentuse gold plated contacts for best performance23:36
greenflyno, that's why you need the gold plated cables :)23:36
lucentagh! beat me to it23:36
greenflybah me too23:36
Aarithis would be freaking is it now working properly?23:36
* lcuk types using a keyboard with gold plated cables23:36
Kegetysand make sure to plug the f-f adaptor the right way so the arrow goes from the hard drive to the n90023:36
greenflybut you want sharper 1s and rounder 0s, without gold you don't get that23:36
lcukthe speed and accuracy shines through :D23:36
frosty`haha lcuk23:36
BCMM_there are microusb male to usb female adaptors23:36
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BCMM_presumably they would let you plug things in without a load of extra cable23:37
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Aarithis is fucking exciting this usb host shit23:37
BCMM_lcuk: i actually have a gold-plated usb cable - was cheapest easilly available at the time23:37
lcukwould platinum be faster than gold?23:37
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lucentgreenfly: I can definitely tell the difference, the gold plated connection allows a much tighter datastage in the upper transfer rates23:37
xDaReaperxwont all of this eat up the battery ?23:37
lcukand squarer oneses23:37
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BCMM_(gold plating costs practically nothing)23:37
MohammadAGthat's better23:38
lcukBCMM_, dont tell my missus23:38
MohammadAGxDaReaperx, not a lot, as much as 3G (C) SpeedEvil23:38
lcukshe would want gold plated everything23:38
greenflylucent: sweeeeet, do your 128kbps MP3s sound better after they are transferred over it?23:38
BCMM_lcuk: was buying stuff from a catalog that actually sells cheap components, and they charged the same for stainless steel and gold-plated stainless steel crocodile clips23:39
BCMM_(both of which were about 50p)23:39
Kegetyswell the gold plating is useful, it just doesnt make the signal any better23:39
vldcnstAari: this is what you need:
lcuki only buy cuban crocodile clips23:39
lucentgreenfly: yes, but I think that has more to do with the lepoard wood isolation disks I've glued to my laptop to minimize rotational transfer from the harddisk onto the signal path23:39
BCMM_the amount of gold used is negligible - a few atoms thick maybe?23:40
* lucent wins, takes a bow23:40
SpeedEvilxDaReaperx: It uses around - for a typical keyboard of the order of 15% of battery per hour.23:40
Kegetysthe purpose is to prevent oxidisation(spelling?) as far as I know23:40
BCMM_yeah, it doesn't corrode23:40
xDaReaperxhmm 15 % is okay23:40
BCMM_gold is very conductive, but that doesn't matter if it's just teh connectors23:40
lcukBCMM_, you dont know what a crocodile clip is till you have had one hand pressed in a forge by nubile amazonian virgin warriors23:40
MohammadAG15-20%, 2.3GB file, 20 minutes to copy23:40
BCMM_now, a cable made of braided gold would probably actually allow longer USB cables than copper23:41
BCMM_but that would actually cost money23:41
lcukand actually be poor23:41
vldcnstBCMM_: it does actually, because thats where you have losses, at the connectors23:41
lcuksince gold isnt very strong23:41
dima202is there a voltage controller on that card?23:41
MohammadAGmake an alloy23:41
BCMM_lcuk: i shoulda got gold-plated actually - i actually did corrode a crocodile clip when i was a kid23:41
Kegetysafaik. usb cable has a limit on the cable lengths due to some timing issues as well, so just a better cable doesnt necessarily help23:41
Aariso it takes that long to copy files then? fuck that's too long man!23:41
BCMM_by passing current through salt water23:41
mmarc__E: Couldn't find package libgles2-sgx-img-dev23:41
MohammadAGAari, it's powered using the N900 itself, and it's a damn 2GB file23:42
mmarc__- hm where is it?..23:42
MohammadAGmmarc__, added the Nokia binaries link?23:42
Aariyea but still23:42
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BCMM_wonder if the gold-plating wears off regularly-used connectors?23:42
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BCMM_i mean, it's very thin and gold is quite soft23:42
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MohammadAGAari, I'm sure a self powered hub would allow better speeds23:43
MohammadAGplus I was using scp (over localhost)23:43
MohammadAGto see progress23:43
Aarigold plated aint worth the shit man, trust me23:43
lcukgold plated toilet roll is worth quite a lot actually23:44
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SpeedEvilhub should not actually affect speed at all23:44
lucentI think we're being trolled at this point, Gentlemen.23:44
lcuknice soft gold, the flecks dont hurt your skin23:44
Aaribeing trolled?23:44
lcuklucent, trolling is a art23:44
BCMM_gold plating is worthwhile in some specific situations23:44
MohammadAGSpeedEvil, well, doesn't drawing both data + power lower speeds?23:44
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SpeedEvilMohammadAG: no, not at all23:44
BCMM_like environments taht cause rapid corrosion, or selling overpriced crap to audiophiles23:44
SpeedEvilMohammadAG: completely seperate wires.23:44
MohammadAGSpeedEvil, well, I guess it applies to optical devices only23:45
SpeedEvilMohammadAG: the change is just - for example - the same as going from min->max brightness23:45
MohammadAG(or devices that spin up)23:45
lucentgold plating is used most famously on the contacts for Automobile "airbag" sensors23:45
SpeedEvilSorry - not following.23:45
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lucentextreme hazard applications23:46
MohammadAGSpeedEvil, my HDD gets higher speeds when connected to AC power23:46
lcukof christ lucent shush, they will start stealing car steering wheels next23:46
Aarioverall i see some benefits to usb hosting but theres too much fucking around right now23:46
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lcukMohammadAG, then you have specific technology to deal23:46
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lcukmost drives arent variable speed afaik?23:47
lcukthis aint no cd burner23:47
MohammadAGlcuk, right, but if it's powered using the laptop only it is slower23:47
lucentlcuk: you know that platinum is being stolen from catalytic converters on vehicles?   vehicle runs fine one day, park it in shady neighborhood, suddenly it is missing an exhaust system and runs poorly the next day23:47
mmarc__MohammadAG: no, it's in place: deb fremantle/4bc37c7c77ebe90177c050 nokia-binaries23:47
lcuklucent, thats because theres a big tonne of the stuff in a large honeycomb structure23:48
lcukbut most people saying "omg the cat has been stolen"23:48
lcukprobably just lost it on the i9623:48
lucentyep.   unlikley that steering column would be stolen to recover so little gold23:48
MohammadAGmmarc__, you are NOT allowed to post that23:48
mmarc__pard me?23:48
MohammadAGyou accepted an agreement23:48
MohammadAGthe "Token" is for personal use only and may not be further distributed or disclosed23:48
mmarc__I'm not posting my token, certainly :)23:49
BCMM_dunno about the rest of the world, but in the UK people steal copper23:49
MohammadAGthat's a token23:49
mmarc__no, my token is different, I've changed it23:49
lcukBCMM_, yeah of course23:49
BCMM_occasionally someone electrocutes themselves trying to take copper from railway power lines23:49
lcukat the sorts of levels these things become rewarding they are done23:49
lucentmmarc__: just don'23:49
lucentjust don't do it23:49
MohammadAGmmarc__, it's still a token23:49
lucentyou obviously understand what you're doing by posting that here23:49
lucentso stop and take a breather, read that agreement again23:49
lucentdon't make trouble for us23:50
MohammadAGI doubt Nokia will check logs anyways23:50
* lcuk looks over at however many .fi people are on the chan list23:51
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lcukit was an accident :P23:52
mmarc__so, binaries repository is in list, but "E: Couldn't find package opengles-sgx-img-common-dev"23:52
mmarc__that's strange23:52
lucentin list and you apt-get update ?23:52
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mmarc__sure! many times23:53
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lcukmmarc__, what does apt-cache search openglex come up with23:53
lcukopengles *23:53
MohammadAG[sbox-FREMANTLE_ARMEL: ~] > apt-cache search opengles-sgx-img-common-dev23:53
MohammadAGopengles-sgx-img-common-dev - PowerVR SGX support development files23:53
mmarc__once again "fakeroot apt-get update" and nothing changes...23:53
mmarc__hmm, no fakeroot?23:53
mmarc__Hit fremantle/.../nokia-binaries Packages23:54
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mmarc__"apt-cache search opengles-sgx-img-common-dev" returns nothing for me :(23:55
lcuki didnt ask you to try that23:55
* mmarc__ has a feeling this anger is for nothing - I've just tried a search too23:57
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ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: ohlol. one day I don't look and the usb host mode threads go up in flames ^^23:59
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mmarc__here you go the maemo forum where the same token is written:
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: we got much nicer pubs now :-D23:59

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