IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2010-05-10

timeless_mbpmapping gtk onto qt is a waste00:00
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: but - for example - I'm not holding my breath for a qt-gnuplot - say00:00
luke-jrRobot101: Maemo has always had parts of KDE!00:00
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luke-jreven Maemo 4 had Telepathy00:00
Robot101nothing in KDE actually uses Telepathy yet - we're working on it...00:01
* DocScrutinizer51 prays gconf will die on moving to qt00:01
luke-jrRobot101: but Telepathy itself is a KDE project00:01
Robot101luke-jr: heh00:01
Robot101luke-jr: you do realise I started the Telepathy project, right?00:02
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luke-jrRobot101: nope :P00:02
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Robot101luke-jr: yeah, so, er, it's not a KDE project. sorry about that. :)00:02
DocScrutinizer51probably such a compatibility lib should have some nagging built in (or get a 30day quarantine penalty) so devels move to qt eventually00:03
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luke-jrwas always hosted on KDE sites as far as I rememer00:03
* DocScrutinizer51 prays gconf will die on moving to qt00:03
Robot101luke-jr: it's always been hosted on as far as I remember00:03
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luke-jrhmm, maybe I'm thinking about something else :/00:03
Robot101Decibel? that was a KDE project based on Telepathy but it never got any apps in KDE to use it either, and its kinda dead now.00:05
ManoftheSeawhat's Telepathy?00:05
Robot101ManoftheSea: real-time communication framework, it's what the N900 uses to make cellular calls, SMS, skype, google talk, etc00:05
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DocScrutinizer51mindreading ;-P00:06
ManoftheSeathanks, doc00:06
ManoftheSeaThat's what makes it difficult to google00:06
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Robot101hardly, it's the 2nd hit...!00:06
* ManoftheSea fails, then.00:06
luke-jrRobot101: yeah, that might be it00:07
ManoftheSeaI admit, I asked before trying.00:07
ManoftheSeaSorry, sorry everyone.00:07
Robot101luke-jr: yeah, maemo never used that00:07
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luke-jrRobot101: gotta admit I never saw *much* purpose to Decibal/Telepathy :)00:08
Robot101ManoftheSea: but yeah, Maemo RTCOMM is based on Telepathy00:08
genewitch1how do I add a feed to osso-rss-feed-reader that doesn't end in .rss?00:08
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luke-jrRobot101: I am of the XMPP-only-or-die mindset :)00:08
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Robot101yeah, XMPP gateways being so helpful for placing cellular calls...? :P00:08
Robot101we wrote an XMPP gateway that uses telepathy actually00:08
Robot101but it's at a very early stage00:08
luke-jrRobot101: I would *never* use a cellular by itself00:08
Robot101even with XMPP, it doesn't solve the problem of sharing a connection between multiple programs00:09
luke-jrI would setup a call with my PBX directly (probably over SSH) and get my phone to understand what the call was00:09
Robot101yeah you're not a normal user00:09
luke-jrnormal users just get WinMo00:09
Robot101telepathy is for doing almost exactly what the N900 does, sharing your IM server connections between contacts, presence, call and conversation UIs00:09
luke-jrXMPP doesn't need that, since you can have unlimited connections00:10
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Robot101yeah, on a mobile device, that's not actually a good idea00:11
Robot101even with just XMPP then Telepathy acts as a local demuxer00:11
Robot101and, I think XMPP priorities stink for choosing where your messages go, really00:11
Robot101so connecting multiple times just makes life worse00:11
Robot101and yeah, I do like XMPP a lot, it's the best supported protocol in Telepathy, and we've worked a lot on Jingle calling and added video support and all sorts00:12
Robot101but it's not perfect, and it's not the solution to all problems00:12
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Robot101the xmpp roster is the most insane and broken part of the protocol, it's the most scary part of all telepathy code, just 100s of lines of insanity :(00:13
DocScrutinizeranyway telepathy dbus interface sucks like almost each and every dbus interface does00:13
Robot101and then google came and broke it even more00:13
Robot101DocScrutinizer: actually we're pretty good at writing dbus interfaces now, you can route an incoming call to the UI with two d-bus messages now00:13
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Robot101DocScrutinizer: we just need to delete the rest of the API which is inefficient...00:13
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ShapeshifterI wonder what was wrong with dcop00:14
DocScrutinizerand write some decent manpage? :-P00:14
Robot101yeah, that would help - the client libraries are getting more docs, and we have a telepathy book now00:14
Robot101so we're working on it00:14
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: aiui dcop and dbus are almost identical00:14
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: but dcop seemed so much easier to understand and work with00:14
Robot101dcop was just not possible for GNOME because it relies on qt object serialisation00:14
Shapeshiftermeh gnome00:15
Shapeshifterditch that.00:15
DocScrutinizerfsck g*00:15
DocScrutinizer~nuke gconf00:15
Robot101the whole point of d-bus was to link gnome and kde shit together :P00:15
* infobot takes two shots to the head and crumples to the ground, lifeless.00:15
Robot101and gconf is bad, gnome know that - they just replaced it too00:15
* infobot starts crying and hides from docscrutinizer in the darkest corner of the room. :(00:15
Shapeshifterbut why does dbus-send have such a silly syntax where you repeat the same thing 3 times?00:16
Robot101oh, that just sucks00:16
DocScrutinizerand friggin skype used dbus-1 while nobody else had support for the obsolete crap00:16
Shapeshifterand where searching is a pita00:16
Robot101the qdbus tool is much better00:16
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Robot101don't get me wrong, I don't love d-bus at all, but it did enable a lot of good stuff00:17
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: mdbus2 -i ftw00:17
Robot101it's just a shame that it got 90% written and then everyone just gave up on making it good00:17
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: thanks00:17
MohammadAG_dbus ftl :P00:17
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Robot101I might organise a d-bus hackfest this autumn00:17
Robot101with the linux foundation stuff in boston00:18
Robot101plumbers / linuxcon00:18
ManoftheSeahmm, I recognize that I don't have a clue...00:18
lbtRobot101: a dbus docfest would be a good start00:18
* DocScrutinizer suggests burning d-bus in a fire 20m high there on that hackfest00:19
Robot101DocScrutinizer: that'd be great, then we can go and rewrite all of the software that's been written using it!00:19
lbtmaking python dbus talk to C dbus talk to perl dbus talk to c++/libsigc dbus talk to Qt dbus...00:19
DocScrutinizerfucking dbus still seems to have that annoying bug whith async or whatever, occasionally dropping msgs00:19
Robot101the best way to achieve success is to keep rewriting everything from scratch - this open source lark has it all wrong. code re-use just means you use other people's less good code...00:19
lbtsome 'best practice' docs00:19
MohammadAG_Robot101, aww you'd do that? Thanks guys00:20
* lbt likes dbus...00:20
Robot101I don't mind it, it could be faster, and libdbus is a bit of a shame00:20
* MohammadAG_ hates it, deeply, about as much as the iPhone00:20
Robot101and qdbus is, er, kinda unmaintained which is awkward00:20
lbtRobot101: but that's just implementation :)00:20
MohammadAG_(otoh if I could understand it, I might start to like it)00:20
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Robot101lbt: yeah, conceptually it's a lot better than the practice00:21
Robot101lbt: thankfully it's not too hard to implement - glib now has its own implementation... gvariant is the dbus data structures and gdbus marshals/unmarshals messages using it00:22
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Robot101MohammadAG_: might help you understand it :)00:22
DocScrutinizerif dbus came with a policy that NO APPLICATION EVER gets away without introspection or without a decent manpage incl a dbus-send example of every method...00:22
lbthmm 2006...00:23
* DocScrutinizer burrrps00:23
Robot101oh the introspection is upsetting00:23
SpeedEvilNo. The lack of docs - which introspection is a shitty implementation of - is upsetting00:24
* lbt wonders if Robot101 is talking about python or Robot101's life...00:24
Robot101lbt: haha, no the whole XML introspection thing in d-bus, is very upsetting00:25
Robot101dbus-glib is upsetting too00:25
Shapeshifterso. everything about dbus is upsetting.00:25
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Robot101the implementations... the wire protocol is tolerable, and the concept is excellent00:25
lbtShapeshifter: apart from the basic design + principles00:25
Robot101given it enables such wonderous things as telepathy00:25
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* DocScrutinizer mumbles CORBA00:26
Shapeshifterwell. the gstreamer basic design and principles are also win. still, gstreamer is pure horror.00:26
Robot101and hal^Wudev00:26
ManoftheSeasource and sink?00:26
lbtDocScrutinizer: nah, we should all switch to Qpid
DocScrutinizeractually gstreamer is something I could love eventually00:27
DocScrutinizereven though it starts with a 'g'00:28
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: have you written something using it?00:28
ShapeshifterI nearly lost my mind. And #gstreamer is the most unfriendly and unhelpful place I've ever visited.00:28
DocScrutinizergstreamer for me looks like a cmdline toolset00:28
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Shapeshifterstuff just doesn't work, the docs are horrible, and debugging is a pain.00:29
DocScrutinizerif it's yet another alternative to PA, then nuke it together with the other useless crap pretending to enable audio/media processing00:29
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infobotextra, extra, read all about it, pa is PAY ATTENTION!!!!!00:30
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infobotyes master, I'll STFU00:30
DocScrutinizerPulse Audio00:30
ShapeshifterI admit I haven't tried libav as an alternative because I was already to deep into the project using gstreamer, but from the glimpse I got it seemed much nicer.00:30
Robot101oh its one of those /pre-existing/ pieces of software?00:31
Robot101it must suck then, best to start over00:31
budfivepulseaudio is great!00:31
Shapeshifterpulseaudio is stupid00:31
DocScrutinizer/kick budfive00:31
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Robot101everyone who wrote all of the software in existence was an idiot, and did such a bad job of solving such simple problems00:31
lbtoss rulez00:31
* Shapeshifter shouts "OSS forever"00:31
Robot101all the code out there is just cruft, we should start over00:32
budfivei have a server with the speakers connected to it, running pulse. various laptops redirect their output to the server00:32
lbtShapeshifter: latency00:32
* Robot101 joins DocScrutinizer's new replacement for everything project00:32
budfiveto the laptop the pulse server looks like any alsa device00:32
lbtRobot101: MeeGo then?00:32
budfiveworks great00:32
Robot101lbt: zing!00:32
ManoftheSeaum...  this looks like a religious argument00:32
lbtnah, ManoftheSea, we just don't have whisky00:32
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timeless_mbpfrals: hey, can you change fMMS's Configuration dialog to use Maemo5 instead of Maemo4 input fields?00:33
timeless_mbpand move the 'Advanced' button to above 'Save'00:33
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DocScrutinizerRobot101: I DO NOT WANT REPLACEMENTS! take all your replacements and eat it! There's been decent IPC before dbus, and my desktop audio has lags of >60sec(!!!), guess since when... right, since last update introduced PA00:34
Robot101there is no precursor to pulseaudio that solves the same problem space00:35
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budfiveDocScrutinizer: if you're not sending audio over the network you really shouldn't be using pulse. that's a heavy extra layer of crap for not much benefit then00:35
DocScrutinizerohnoes. Yeah I can't live without err, what? Ahyes without audio-over-network and hotswitching audiocards00:35
DocScrutinizerDid I miss any advantages of PA over ALSA?00:36
Robot101DocScrutinizer: N900 hot switches between loudspeaker, earpiece, headset and bluetooth00:36
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Robot101there's a reason both palm and nokia chose pulseaudio for their devices...00:36
tremnite all, sweet dreams00:36
DocScrutinizerRobot101: for N900 I not yet made up my mind00:36
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ManoftheSeaand fm00:36
Robot101even desktops hot-switch with bluetooth and USB devices too00:37
Robot101anyway, 'night00:37
* lbt would like pa for home AV systems00:37
lbtnight Robot101 :)00:37
DocScrutinizerbut I guess you don't need hotswitching. A splitting of the stream to 3 sinks, each with a softvol, that might do the trick as well00:37
lbtinteresting stuff BTW ...00:37
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DocScrutinizerRobot101: (for the reason part) maybe the reason was: ALL distros got PA now, just because somebody was realy loud about it?00:38
wall[e]done last night!00:39
wall[e]no clothes, just body00:39
* DocScrutinizer gives a steaming shit on a desktop PC hotswitching to BT - with a 60sec lag00:40
MohammadAG_ImportError: No module named wnck <-- any ideas00:40
ShadowJKpa is crap, but the alternatives are worse00:40
DocScrutinizerthe alternatives have even steeper learning curve00:41
ShadowJKwell that too00:41
DocScrutinizerand are even worse documented00:41
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DocScrutinizerbut there's abolutely nothing wrong with ALSA the software00:41
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DocScrutinizerit just works00:41
wall[e]any tool i can use to adjust hsv and level?00:41
lioriDocScrutinizer: ALSA being linux-only?00:41
DocScrutinizerdunno, who cares?00:42
ShadowJKWell, dmix never ever worked as good as pulseaudio does for me00:42
lbtwall[e]: gimp?00:42
ShadowJKoften every alsa-using app would just hang/halt due to dmix :)00:42
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: then you had a crappy setup00:42
wall[e]lbt, anything on n900, sorry.00:42
wall[e]gimp is ported?00:43
lbtdoubt it00:43
Shapeshifterwhat good would it be. you can run it in easy debian but of course it's slow and stuff00:43
ShadowJKmind, alsa's pulse plugin seems to have many of the bugs alsa's dmix plugin has.. enormous latency coupled with nonexistant/wrong/crap buffer fill and delay reporting..00:43
wall[e]DocScrutinizer, I think they ported graphic magick00:43
wall[e]I can't find the deb00:43
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: that's not correct00:44
Robot101alsa doesn't do the same as pulseaudio. what learning curve does pulseaudio have when you have a UI like ?00:44
wall[e]it was for old system00:44
wall[e]those devices before n90000:44
DocScrutinizerto all my knowlede these are issues *introduced* by PA00:44
wall[e]graphicmagicks was a clone00:44
DocScrutinizernot heratage of dmix00:44
wall[e]er fork00:44
ShadowJKI'm not saying it's a heritage00:44
ShadowJKbut the same issues are there00:45
wall[e]i installed sdk just to port it to n900 before someone ruin my box00:45
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wall[e]anyone with good mood can port graphicmagick for me then it would be nice00:45
Robot101ie pick a sound card, set the speakers, receive audio.00:45
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DocScrutinizerRobot101: I *hate* ALSA as it has NO docs that gained the name "doc" - but honestly it has all I ever needed, and it just works00:46
wall[e]it's very important for n900 artists, i think.00:46
Robot101DocScrutinizer: so, you're not the target user either00:46
DocScrutinizerPA otoh never(!) worked for me00:46
BCMMwhat is the connection between graphicmagick and imagemagick?00:46
Robot101DocScrutinizer: as you a) know what alsa is, b) looked for docs00:46
DocScrutinizerRobot101: ack, granted00:47
Robot101DocScrutinizer: there are literally millions of people who use ubuntu or fedora or RHEL or whatever, and pulseaudio works fine for them00:47
ShadowJKIf you output direct to audio device with alsa, it works beautifully.. but that's a bit inadeuate on modern desktop :)00:47
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Robot101remember to pick your rants well, or you might come across as uninformed. :P00:47
* ShadowJK is still suffering from pulseaudio pausing bug despite using a version where it's supposedly fixed00:47
Robot101d-bus replacing corba, now that's something we could have a good discussion about00:47
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: you can create whatever audio plugin stack you need, while opening a ALSA device00:48
Robot101like, was it just a political decision to keep kde folks happy...00:48
Robot101but, another day00:48
* Robot101 really sleeps now00:48
ShadowJKand I get periodic buffer underrun in the form of crackling, no atter what priority I run pulseaudio00:48
DocScrutinizerno need to output 'directlly'00:48
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ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, for me the only thing that actually works without issues is alsa direct, or pulseaudio -> alsa00:49
ShadowJKalsa -> alsa plugins -> ??? -> audio device, too buggy to be usable00:49
zashRobot101: where is that surround ui hidden?00:50
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wall[e]ok, i guess i'll install sdk again on my home box00:50
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: never had any issues, except of understanding how to use it correctly00:50
DocScrutinizeronce set up correctly it worked like a charm every time00:50
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DocScrutinizer(well, since alsa0.98 maybe)00:51
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ShadowJKI want to know how to set it up so that it doesn't add 2 second granularity to delay measurements00:51
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DocScrutinizererr, if you need delay *measurements* then probably PA is the right thing for you. ALSA is just happy with delivering a guaranteed max delay you can config as you like within the limits of your hardware00:53
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ShadowJKlike, when using alsa output plugin/device/whatever 'default', like repeatedly requesting amount of audio in output buffer says "2000ms" for about 3 seconds and then it says 0 and xrun00:53
DocScrutinizerdefault is a very fuzzy thing in ALSA. Depends on your distro, your particular hardware, dunno what00:54
DocScrutinizerand I admit most distros come with a ALSA config that's suboptimal at best00:55
ShadowJKbut alsa direct to device gives the expected results, where if you request the delay every 10ms, you get answers that are smaller each and every time, and answers that decrement at almost 10ms per request00:55
ShadowJK(almost, because system and audio clocks aren't synchronized)00:56
DocScrutinizerand how should they00:56
DocScrutinizerif they were you'd not even need a ringbuffer00:56
ShadowJKI did not say they should be.00:57
DocScrutinizernot to mention interrupts and thresholds00:57
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: odds are alsa default is a PA plugin since years now00:58
DocScrutinizeraplay -v /dev/urandom is your friend00:58
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DocScrutinizeras are aplay -l and aplay -L00:58
ShadowJKAtleast using pulseaudio directly doesn't kill audio delay granularity and usefulness :)00:59
DocScrutinizerwell I curse PA 50 times every day, as it killed my desktop audio, after 8 years of flawless operation under ALSA01:00
DocScrutinizereach time I close a window, or hit left cursor in xterm once to often01:03
DocScrutinizerand the audio for that comes 2 minutes later01:03
DocScrutinizeror 5sec later01:03
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DocScrutinizeror 2 days later (no kidding)01:03
ShadowJKhah, sounds like alsa using apps on my desktop :P01:03
ShadowJKwhen dmix decided to hang everything and then later when I kill the right app, the others get unwedged :P01:04
DocScrutinizeralsa default is guaranteed to be a plugin based on PA nowadays01:04
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lcukdoes pyqt work on the 8x0?01:05
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: then you probably missed to config the device in a way to create unique dmix handles by adding the process number to the handle base integer01:06
DocScrutinizeror you actually used PA and didn't recognize it01:06
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ShadowJKno this was before PA01:07
wall[e]is it bad to turn off touch screen vibration?01:07
ShadowJKwhy would it be bad..01:07
DocScrutinizeryou are sure about the date PA crept in to your system?01:07
wall[e]will make the panel got scratch easier?01:07
wall[e]like you won't know if you press too hard01:08
DocScrutinizerwall[e]: suuuure -nah why should it?01:08
wall[e]can't paint properly with that turn on01:08
DocScrutinizerthat's what the switch is for ;-)01:08
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ShadowJKyes, I know when PA came, because all movie players stopped working, and music playing apps stopped hanging..01:09
wall[e]i guess i need a widget01:09
DocScrutinizerwall[e]: profiles are your friend01:09
DocScrutinizercheck tweakr01:10
wall[e]DocScrutinizer, ah, i installed tweakr but i didn't know it allow more profiles01:10
DocScrutinizerhooray, 10 minutes past 0:0001:10
wall[e]you guys probably have seen that01:10
wall[e]it's creativetone playing with mypaint on n900 i think it's very cool01:10
DocScrutinizerwar is over ;-P01:11
wall[e]rtorrent rocks!01:12
wall[e]now i need a step by step partitioning guide.01:13
* wall[e] feels silly01:14
wall[e]just doesn't want to do something wrong :P01:14
wall[e](for a person who occasionally fix linux kernel)01:15
SpeedEvilI 'simply' tarred up mydocs, and stuck the tgz on /home01:16
SpeedEvilDeleted and recreated the mydocs partition.01:16
wall[e]good idea!01:16
SpeedEvilas a 4G partition01:16
SpeedEvilmkdosfs'd it01:16
SpeedEvilthen made a 28G remainder partition01:16
SpeedEviland made that ext301:17
wall[e]must store it on a different machine though, now i used 20gb01:17
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wall[e]ok, thanks, let's do it01:18
Arkenoii see usb hostmode enthusiasts are not going to give up. that's good, maybe someday they get it working01:18
wall[e]i guess i didn't need doc but inspiration :S01:19
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lcukwall[e], very nice :) (mypaint vid)01:20
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DocScrutinizerArkenoi: you're kidding??01:21
wall[e]lcuk, yeh, did you check the mypaint thread? creative tone and possibly me have some arts there :)01:21
wall[e]and more others01:21
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lcuknot yet i havent01:21
DocScrutinizerArkenoi: we're just days, maybe hours away from a fully working hostmode iimplementation01:21
lcukit would be good if the forum could make a page showing all the art/photos in a thread01:21
lcukie minimal comment breaks and just gallery page01:22
ArkenoiDocScrutinizer, i hope it is true01:22
DocScrutinizerArkenoi: basically hostmode IS THERE already01:22
DocScrutinizersee today's post of egoshin01:22
lcuki wonder if theres a plugin for hte forum software to do it01:22
DocScrutinizerand my answer clearly stating that01:23
lcukof how easy it would be to make01:23
wall[e]i think so01:23
wall[e]already plugins01:23
lcukwall[e], if you could find one and post it on the forum as an idea?01:24
lcuksee if its feasible :)01:24
wall[e]60 usd?01:25
wall[e]bot wrote by the guy who made vb01:25
wall[e]n/m that link01:25
wall[e]i confuse vbulletin with ybulletin01:26
wall[e]ok, it's vbulletin01:26
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lcukwall[e], thats a bit more than i was thinking (not money, the features lol) i just thought show all photos ;)01:27
lcuknot making an entire subforum01:28
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Maceri just went through a ton of crap just to get my zimbra stats working properly01:31
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Macerat least the battery life in kubuntu on this macbook is a lot better now that i realized i had it set to the wrong cpu settings01:32
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wall[e]what does pi/14 means for rotation?01:34
wall[e]why 14?01:34
lcukwall[e], sometimes more context helps, its a fraction?01:35
wall[e]command == 'RotateRight': self.tdw.rotate(+2*math.pi/14) is the rotation code in MyPaint01:36
lcukright, its just the stepsize they use?01:36
wall[e]i don't know, why they use 1401:36
wall[e]like i should rotate 15 degree01:36
lcukyou are right, they should have used 1301:37
asjWrkwell is it degrees or radians?01:37
lcukwall[e], what on earth does it matter?01:37
lcukits an arbritary figure - change it if you dont like it, but expect users who use it to shout01:37
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wall[e]the rotation of canvas in mypaint01:37
wall[e]i wonder if there's some maths behind this or they just invent the number01:38
lcuk"i need to rotate it a bit"01:38
wall[e]15 is also a bit, it isn't even configurable01:38
lcukthey are dividing by whole circle, it just rotates01:38
asjWrk28 steps in a full rotation? or just under 2 rotations a second at 60fps? <shrug>01:38
lcukits a nonesense01:39
lcuka folly figure01:39
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lcukdisregard or your mind will explode01:39
wall[e]i guess01:39
wall[e]i am not alone!01:39
lcuki have such figures in the early liqbubbles thing im playing with01:39
lcukon desktop it runs too fast01:39
lcukon 900 its just about right01:40
asjWrklcuk: where's the turbo button when you need it?01:41
lcukasjWrk :) this test code is the first ive written in python01:41
lcukit needs converting to c or c++01:41
asjWrklcuk: python, say no more ;)01:42
lcukto be as fast as liqbase01:42
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SpeedEvilArgh. /me should sometimes listen to the voices.01:46
Gh0stynice nice, autodisconnect application rulez :)01:46
SpeedEvilI thought a while ago 'You should really investigate that 'boot other OSs stub' for putting a simple rescue script in it that let you ssh in.01:47
Gh0styDocScrutinizer: think it was you who mentioned there was somewhere a list of bluetooth earphones on the wiki ... just looked a bit around but can't find it :(01:47
SpeedEvilIOW - I bootlooped it.01:47
DocScrutinizermaybe I mentioned it, but I can't remember if I actually seen it or just heard somebody talk about it01:48
infobotfrom memory, flashing is
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: congrats01:48
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: hope it was for a good reason01:49
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SpeedEvilI was editing rcS-late - or whatever it's called.01:49
SpeedEvilI was making my working hacks to the system to mount /home/user/data/ - 'pretty'.01:49
SpeedEvilA fatal mistake!01:49
DocScrutinizernah, the missing rescue system is the fatal mistake -of Nokia though01:50
* lcuk looks at SpeedEvil sideways01:50
* DocScrutinizer yawns01:51
DocScrutinizerdamn, aging a year a day makes you feel tired ;-P01:51
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SpeedEvilCombined is just rootfs + kernel?01:55
SpeedEvilNot mmc too?01:55
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DocScrutinizernope, no eMMC01:55
DocScrutinizeralso you can specify what to flash and what not to flash01:55
SpeedEvilI assume there isn't a way to copy the / off the device?01:56
SpeedEvilwith the flasher01:56
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DocScrutinizernope :-(01:56
DocScrutinizernot AFAIK01:56
DocScrutinizerFAIL!!! nokia hear me? FAAAAAAIIIIIL01:56
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: try -U/-D for upload/download, like for OM-flasher ;-P01:57
DocScrutinizerif only NOLO had a way to boot from uSD... :-/01:58
DocScrutinizeror to redirect rootfs to somewhere else01:59
MohammadAG_can't you back up from Mer?01:59
SpeedEvilIn principle01:59
DocScrutinizerprolly yes. but how to boot mer?01:59
MohammadAG_install bootmenu to flash the initfs02:00
b-man|laptopif only NOLO was open source - then we could multiboot kernels :)02:00
MohammadAG_(to show a bootloader at bootup)02:00
lcukMohammadAG_, requires preplanning02:00
DocScrutinizerneeds botmenu -> edit /fs02:00
SpeedEvilI suppose I could use the flasher to pass a commandline saying rootfs=/dev/mmcblk102:00
MohammadAG_lcuk, oh, didn't notice he borked the device02:00
lcukthere is a window in the boot sequence which Stskeeps put in for pr1.102:00
SpeedEvillcuk: however - it requires a script already on the device02:00
lcukbut that even requires a file to be placed there prior to breakage02:00
MohammadAG_(should've been @ me but wth, blame lcuk for everything)02:01
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: that would be great02:01
lcukconsider what functionality would be required and the skills needed to implement a rescue core based on it?02:01
lcukget it into extras?02:01
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lcukthats a first viable step?02:01
SpeedEvillcuk: well - not really02:02
MohammadAG_or they could open up flasher02:02
SpeedEvillcuk: extras doesn't help at all02:02
MohammadAG_(nvm, that won't happen in the near future)02:02
lcukSpeedEvil, for a first step it does02:02
lcukwrite it02:02
DocScrutinizerlcuk: go ahead!02:02
SpeedEvillcuk: the ideal would be a small rescue image that you can copy to a mmc02:02
lcukno DocScrutinizer i have other things to consider02:02
SpeedEvillcuk: and use flasher to boot a kernel that boots that02:02
lcukSpeedEvil, difficult02:02
SpeedEvillcuk: why?02:02
lcuknot all users use command line flasher02:03
SpeedEvillcuk: meh02:03
lcukim thinking an oh crap my machine is dead moment for a regular user02:03
SpeedEvilI don't care about them!02:03
SpeedEvilI care aobut me!02:03
MohammadAG_not all users break their devices :)02:03
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: think that's exactly what I said, no?02:03
Gizmokid2005I stupidly encrypted my backup that I made before I reflashed...and now most of my applications didn't there any way that I can decrypt the backup file on my n900 to get the /Root/var/lib/hildon-application-manager/packages.backup file extracted so I can reinstall?02:03
MohammadAG_it's a regular zip file02:03
lcukabsolutely MohammadAG_02:03
Gizmokid2005MohammadAG_: not when it's encrypted02:03
MohammadAG_decrypt it02:03
SpeedEvilGizmokid2005: you know the password?02:04
Gizmokid2005it extracts to an
Gizmokid2005I do SpeedEvil, I just can't seem to figure out how to decrypt it on my computer02:04
Gizmokid2005to just view the file.02:04
MohammadAG_how'd you encript it?02:04
b-man|laptopMohammadAG_: - too bad it only works with the N770, N800, and N81002:04
Gizmokid2005I don't want my N900 to try to restore it, I just want to decrypt it so I can view the file02:04
Gizmokid2005with the Backup utility02:04
MohammadAG_b-man|laptop, omg?02:05
Gizmokid2005and I know the password, and I know the file I want...but I can't get it to open once I get the file to my laptop (since it's pw protected)...02:05
asjWrkGizmokid2005: run file <filename> perhaps it'll clue you in on the crypto tool02:05
* Arkenoi wonders if there will ever be decent DtG release, the initial one just sucks02:06
b-man|laptopMohammadAG_: it partially works with the N900 ;)02:06
b-man|laptopMohammadAG_: it can do fw dumps - but can't flash yet02:06
DocScrutinizerb-man|laptop: partially as in 'flashes half of the kernel and half of the rootfs"?02:07
MohammadAG_fw dumps?02:07
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: ^^^ dumps!02:07
b-man|laptopfirmware dumps; ie extract the 1st and 2nd bootloaders02:07
DocScrutinizerfrom WHERE?02:07
b-man|laptopor anything else02:07
b-man|laptopfrom the NAND xD02:07
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DocScrutinizerfrom flike or from device?02:08
b-man|laptopfrom the device xD02:08
MohammadAG_device, if it's a dump02:08
DocScrutinizerfrom NAND!! SpeedEvil !!!!!02:08
MohammadAG_lol that's why I was asking02:08
MohammadAG_I wonder if SpeedEvil hit enter02:09
Gizmokid2005asjWrk: on what?02:09
MohammadAG_hope he forgets the sudo02:09
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asjWrkGizmokid2005: the crypted backup file02:09
MohammadAG_<DocScrutinizer> from NAND!! SpeedEvil !!!!!02:09
Gizmokid2005asjWrk: I know, but on the N900?02:09
asjWrkGizmokid2005: no on your desktop linux machine02:10
SpeedEvilBut even if that works - how could I mount a ubifs image?02:10
Gizmokid2005asjWrk: running it on OSX02:10
MohammadAG_SpeedEvil, with a ubifs enabled kernel02:10
Gizmokid2005I may try to pull it apart with 7-zip on my windows box though..02:10
b-man|laptopor a ubifs kernel module02:10
SpeedEvilMohammadAG_: ubifs is not a block device fs02:10
asjWrkGizmokid2005: oh well, your sol02:10
SpeedEvilMohammadAG_: it's a NAND fs. My laptop has no NAND02:10
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MohammadAG_infobot, ubifs is
infobotMohammadAG_: okay02:11
MohammadAG_SpeedEvil, that ^02:11
Gizmokid2005so there's no way to just get the out of the encrypted backup file?02:11
Gizmokid2005at /all/?02:11
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DocScrutinizerGizmokid2005: try with a decent unzipper tol, whatever there might be available on macOS02:12
DocScrutinizertool even02:12
DocScrutinizeror unzip on N900, with unzip02:12
Gizmokid2005I've tried it with both the built-in utility and StuffIt Expander02:12
Gizmokid2005will that actually work?02:12
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DocScrutinizernever tried02:12
MohammadAG_Gizmokid2005, what do you want to do exactly?02:13
Gizmokid2005worth a shot I suppose02:13
Jiri-Anyone can help me with Ovi map loader with n900? says all the time waiting for phone!02:13
MohammadAG_the restored decrypted file should be in /var/lib/hildon-application-manager/packages.backup02:13
Gizmokid2005MohammadAG_: I just want the packages.backup file out of my latest backup, since my N900 didn't seem to want to install nearly /any/ of my applications I had installed.02:13
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG_: he created a backup with backup tool on N900 and gave it a password02:13
MohammadAG_Gizmokid2005, restore backup and cat the file above02:13
Gizmokid2005MohammadAG_: checking02:13
asjWrkMohammadAG_: the N900 backup utility can create an encrypted backup file, he wants to decrypt it himself02:13
MohammadAG_DocScrutinizer, yeah I got that part ;)02:13
MohammadAG_I got that part too02:13
MohammadAG_(aren't they the same :P)02:14
asjWrkMohammadAG_: but he has useless operating systems and can't02:14
MohammadAG_asjWrk, but his N900 should have it decrypted as /var/lib/hildon-application-manager/packages.backup02:14
MohammadAG_I doubt HAM handles decryption02:14
MohammadAG_(which would be stupid tbh)02:14
asjWrkMohammadAG_: yeah but <shrug> :)02:15
DocScrutinizerGizmokid2005: errr, do I get that right you're talking about apt's database file?02:15
MohammadAG_DocScrutinizer, HAM file02:15
Gizmokid2005MohammadAG_: it seems to be there...Hmm, my backup file doesn't really seem to have everything...IE - I KNOW I had witter installed, but it's not in the list...02:15
Gizmokid2005DocScrutinizer: MohammadAG_'s idea seems to be what I want02:15
MohammadAG_Gizmokid2005, are you sure you restored the right backup?02:15
asjWrkwitter is pretty bad, tyou don't really want it ;)02:15
Gizmokid2005I only have 2...02:15
Gizmokid2005asjWrk: :P I do though :D02:15
Gizmokid2005an encrypted and an unencrypted backup02:15
asjWrkGizmokid2005: your phone agrees with me02:15
Gizmokid2005LOL asedeno_work02:15
Gizmokid2005** asjWrk02:16
MohammadAG_no idea why it wasn't backed up, it should be in user/02:16
Gizmokid2005eh, oh well.02:16
asjWrkjust's not that hard02:16
Gizmokid2005I haven't changed much since my last backup02:16
DocScrutinizerI don't get it now... Why don't you just restore the applications from backup tool??02:16
MohammadAG_DocScrutinizer, read my suggestion 10+ lines up :P02:16
Gizmokid2005I know asjWrk, but that's not the only thing missing...but I can't place exactly what all wasn't reinstalled (besides the extra protocol plugins ( a few of them)), but like I'd get told, if I need it, and it's not there, it probably wasn't reinstalled...02:16
Gizmokid2005DocScrutinizer: I tried...but it seems to have missed a lot02:17
Gizmokid2005whether that actually be the fault of the backup or not...I"m not really sure.02:17
MohammadAG_<MohammadAG_> asjWrk, but his N900 should have it decrypted (Edit: by the backup tool) as /var/lib/hildon-application-manager/packages.backup02:17
DocScrutinizerthen something is borked and extracting any file manually won't help out of that02:17
Gizmokid2005MohammadAG_: is right, the timestamp is 1837 locally which is correct I do believe.02:17
asjWrkMohammadAG_: I'm wondering if he's restoring after having installed the fake PR1.2 and deps are screwed up02:17
Gizmokid2005never installed PR1.202:17
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MohammadAG_asjWrk, it doesn't backup version apps02:18
MohammadAG_the backup tool02:18
MohammadAG_not sure about 1.2 though02:18
Gizmokid2005I was reflashing 1.1.1 becuase I've had some weird issues with it (going slow, not taking calls, random reboots (twice) etc.)02:18
ohwhymeanyone get jagged alliance 2 to work?02:18
asjWrkMohammadAG_: I'm thinking couldn't satisfy qt deps02:18
Gizmokid2005my phone was 1.1 then OTA updated to
MohammadAG_asjWrk, well witter is pygtk afaik02:18
asjWrkMohammadAG_: yeah, sadly02:18
Gizmokid2005the extra protocol plugins wouldn't reinstall due to some "upstart-job" but I found the answer to that.02:19
Gizmokid2005I'll just pull the older unencrypted backup and check the apps from that02:19
Gizmokid2005thanks for the help guys :) I can manually reinstall the apps, that doesn't bother me. I've been meaning to clean out the dead weight anyways...02:19
MohammadAG_sample .backup file
MohammadAG_yeah, my backups are epic02:20
Jiri-Please help me with ovi map loader.. n900, win7 saying all the time waiting for phones02:20
DocScrutinizerGizmokid2005: you considered taking a peep at HAM's installation log?02:20
MohammadAG_119 applications02:20
Gizmokid2005MohammadAG_: I was close to that, 101 last I knew...02:20
SpeedEvilMohammadAG_: You do  know that they're not pokemon?02:20
Gizmokid2005DocScrutinizer: never heard of no?02:20
MohammadAG_Gizmokid2005, that was after a cleanup02:20
MohammadAG_SpeedEvil, I almost choked xD02:20
Gizmokid2005haha MohammadAG_, so was mine :P02:21
MohammadAG_they were 156 :)02:21
MohammadAG_my bad, 11602:22
MohammadAG_I counted the xml crap02:22
Gizmokid2005137 in my late april backup02:22
Gizmokid2005I only paid for ONE app for my phone02:23
Gizmokid2005Line 3802:23
MohammadAG_or joikuspot02:23
* MohammadAG_ checks02:23
Gizmokid2005Nope, each time I went to buy the extra levels, they weren't in the Ovi store because of their issues.02:23
MohammadAG_got them using apt-get02:23
Gizmokid2005and I only bought that because I"m lazy, but I LOVE the app, can't go wrong for $3.7502:23
MohammadAG_then paid later on when they appeared02:24
Gizmokid2005MohammadAG_: yeah, I didn't catch them either time...and last time I looked they STILL weren't there.02:24
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maddleranyone ecperiencing SIM registration error in here?02:42
Scifi_Hi, how long does it take to receive the invite to upload to extras-devel?02:44
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MohammadAG_a day or two02:44
MohammadAG_could be less on non-weekend days02:44
Scifi_MohammadAG_: Oh ok, thanks. I requested yesterday02:44
MohammadAG_sunday, most probably no one even checked them02:45
Scifi_I thought so. But I am too eager with this being my first app and all :)02:46
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zlimvosi feel like a retard.. cant find the external card i just inserted on my n900... where is that folder? nothing under /mnt02:49
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Scifi_zlimvos: tried /media ?02:50
kynkySpeedEvils way is best02:50
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timeless_mbpmaddler: i've hit it once or twice02:51
timeless_mbp(out of perhaps a thousand boots)02:51
zlimvosthanx both i think its just too late and i cant think. the /media/mmc1 folder is empty. i guess ill have to manual mount it02:51
zlimvosill look it up tomorrow, ty all and gnight for europeans02:52
MohammadAG_did you close the battery cover?02:53
MohammadAG_is it vfat?02:53
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zlimvoshmmm it could be ntfs..02:53
kynkythere is ntfs3g02:53
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zlimvosi see kernel-module-ntfs in appman i guess i need that02:54
timeless_mbpzlimvos: dmesg02:54
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timeless_mbpit should at least give you a hint about why it didn't load02:55
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zlimvosnice timeless thanx for helping me remember my linux whereabouts02:57
timeless_mbpyou can also install sysklogd if you're so inclined02:58
zlimvosbad thing dmesg is quite happy with my mmc and recognized it02:58
* timeless_mbp would be inclined to just mount it w/ a normal computer02:58
timeless_mbpzlimvos: what did it say about it?02:58
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timeless_mbpdmesg is your kernel's output about whatever02:58
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zlimvosat the end new high speed SDHC card at address d5502:59
zlimvosmmcb1k1:mmc0:d555 SU08G 7.60GiB02:59
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zlimvoslet me add the ntfs support from the reps03:00
timeless_mbphrm, i was hoping it'd be more talkative03:00
timeless_mbpoh well :)03:00
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zlimvosi hope its just the file system as suggested. but dmesg is fun!03:01
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zlimvosok maybe my last question, any idea how can i re-initiate the mmc recognition process without physically removing it and reinserting it?03:03
SpeedEvilremove and replace the back cover03:04
zlimvosok ty again. mor tomorrow im off gnights03:08
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Termanagood morning03:39
timeless_mbpnot really03:41
* timeless_mbp cancels travel plans03:41
asjWrktimeless_mbp: ?03:41
timeless_mbpi counted an my chickens before an egg was laid03:41
timeless_mbpand it isn't going to be laid, so it won't hatch, and i won't be flying03:42
* GeneralAntilles complains about application announcements that aren't quotable.03:42
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asjWrktimeless_mbp: at least it won't be roten03:43
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wall[e]anyone has problem flickr setting crash all the time?03:46
maddlerwall[e]: let me try03:47
wall[e]i remove my flickr acct and add it back03:48
wall[e]didn't help, removing the flickr and reinstall didn't help03:48
wall[e]wonder if there's a config file i can remove03:48
maddlerworking fine here03:49
SpeedEvilhow does a setting crash?03:49
wall[e]internal error03:49
wall[e]i guess reflash03:50
wall[e]do you know if sharing use python services some how?03:51
wall[e]i wonder if installing of mypaint from testing cause that03:52
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wall[e]er devl03:55
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wall[e]hmm no it's something to do in dbus level04:00
wall[e]sharing-accountstore.c 516 sharing_account_store_add_account Last added id exists: 1504:01
wall[e]process 2478: arguments to dbus_bus_request_name() were incorrect, assertion "_dbus_check_is_valid_bus_name (name)" failed in file dbus-bus.c line 1070.04:01
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Pekuja_is there any info on when PR 1.2 will be out?04:02
wall[e]see topic04:02
MohammadAG_read the topic04:02
* wall[e] scores 1:004:02
MohammadAG_[04:02:21:02S] <MohammadAG_> read the topic04:02
MohammadAG_[04:02:21:02S] <wall[e]> see topic04:02
* MohammadAG_ scores 1:104:02
asjWrkwall[e]: you can't score till the /kick04:02
MohammadAG_same MS04:02
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MohammadAG_ /kick asjWrk *scores*04:03
asjWrkMohammadAG_: hehe, you love me to much ;)04:03
MohammadAG_/kickban asjWrk no i don't :P04:03
* asjWrk feels the love :)04:04
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* MohammadAG_ feels awkward...04:04
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povbotBug 10089: Cannot create Flickr sharing account: "Internal error. Application 'Settings' closed."04:06
wall[e]no luck04:06
Pekuja_wall[e]: well the topic doesn't really tell, but I guess there's no info then04:06
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wall[e]i've heard they have bug to fix04:07
wall[e]so it must be late04:07
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caoticMis there any alternative application for the n900 to access installed applications ?04:08
DocScrutinizerPekuja_: which part of "NO PR1.2 YET, askers will get kicked" was unclear?04:09
wall[e]i can backup-reflash and get everything back right?04:09
Pekuja_DocScrutinizer: I did not ask *for* PR1.2. I asked *about* it.04:09
wall[e]yeh that was in a thin gray line04:10
DocScrutinizerhmm, ok. But Nokia *never* announces any release dates04:10
MohammadAG_we did not specify what you could or could not ask04:10
Pekuja_MohammadAG_: then perhaps everybody who asks any question should be kicked?04:10
MohammadAG_DocScrutinizer, change topic to PR1.2* will get kicked?04:11
MohammadAG_Pekuja_, we're not that strict...04:11
MohammadAG_otherwise you'd be gone :P04:11
DocScrutinizer¿ rotated by 180° triggers auto-kickban ;-P04:11
wall[e]looks like espanol04:11
* MohammadAG_ demands a kick04:11
MohammadAG_I'll sue if I don't get it04:12
MohammadAG_it's a right!04:12
Pekuja_I assumed the topic meant that you can't ask for the illegaly leaked files04:12
wall[e]sounds like foot fetishism04:12
MohammadAG_LOL perv04:13
* wall[e] hides.04:13
wall[e]Pekuja_, oh, i think that assumption make a lot of sense to me04:14
wall[e]i'd assume like that too, thinking about it.04:14
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Macerit sucks having been in the USMC and watching the pacific because i already know john basilone dies04:14
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* MohammadAG_ kicks wall[e] 04:15
DocScrutinizererr aha04:15
* wall[e] rolls away.04:15
infobot:), DocScrutinizer04:15
infobotthanks, MohammadAG_04:16
Macerin the movie he dies wrong though. he was actually killed by shrapnel04:16
MohammadAG_does it get overweight if we keep doing that?04:16
Macerer.. show04:16
DocScrutinizerseems she's suffering from that already04:16
MohammadAG_ooh, a she?04:17
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DocScrutinizer~attack MohammadAG_04:17
MohammadAG_never knew bots were she-s04:17
* MohammadAG_ laughs as the command fails04:17
DocScrutinizer~ignore MohammadAG_04:17
MohammadAG_~unignore MohammadAG_04:17
MohammadAG_yep, she's overweight04:17
infobotDocScrutinizer meant: blarrg04:17
MohammadAG_~nuke DocScrutinizer04:18
MohammadAG_that too04:18
MohammadAG_think she's out of missiles04:18
Dassueh... has the "save link as" feature been removed from microb?04:18
Dassudoesn't seem to be working for me04:18
DocScrutinizerI think she experienced a lobotomy04:18
infobotI feel different somehow.04:19
*** njsf_ has joined #maemo04:19
infobotSince Fri Apr 30 19:47:02 2010, there have been 66 modifications, 458 questions, 0 dunnos, 0 morons and 280 commands.  I have been awake for 9d 5h 32m 30s this session, and currently reference 0 factoids.  I'm using about 41976 kB of memory. With 0 active forks. Process time user/system 22972.96/633.33 child 0.17/0.0904:19
* GeneralAntilles guesses konttori is not the person to talk to about pushing Fremantle issues anymore.04:20
* GeneralAntilles guesses Fremantle is more stillborn now that he suspected.04:20
DassuMohammadAG_: it appears that with mp3's the "save link as" is not present O_o04:20
MohammadAG_unlobotomy <--?04:21
infobotrumour has it, flashing is
Dassujesus, why would they do that04:21
Dassuguess I have to limit mp3's from mplayer plugin04:22
SpeedEvildownloading a podcast in the browser gave me the option to dave it or play it in media player.04:24
MohammadAG_~lart DocScrutinizer04:24
* infobot declares DocScrutinizer a moron04:24
SpeedEvilBut in media player, I can't tell it to get it all, as I'm going to be going out of coverage04:24
SpeedEvilwhich is annoying04:24
MohammadAG_DocScrutinizer, maybe she went corrupt?04:24
DocScrutinizerseems like, yes04:24
jacekowskihave anybody tried to create iphone emulator for maemo?04:25
MohammadAG_Caught signal 11 (Segmentation fault). Server aborting04:25
SpeedEviljacekowski: I tried.04:25
DocScrutinizerholiday on Maggie's Farm04:25
SpeedEviljacekowski: It turns out wishing really hard doesn't make it true.04:25
DocScrutinizershe doesn't talk to me at all now, in private query :-S04:25
jacekowskimaybe somebody else tried harder?04:25
jacekowskii spent last couple hours coding04:26
jacekowskiand i've got something that resembles linker04:26
SpeedEvilIphone or android would be interesting.04:26
jacekowskibut then i saw iphone sdk04:26
SpeedEvilIs palm emulator there?04:26
jacekowskiand it's huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge04:26
SpeedEvilold palm that is04:26
DocScrutinizer[2010-05-10 03:21:06] <DocScrutinizer> status04:26
DocScrutinizer[2010-05-10 03:21:06] <infobot> Since Fri Apr 30 19:47:02 2010, there have been 66 modifications, 458 questions, 0 dunnos, 0 morons and 282 commands.  I have been awake for 9d 5h 34m 4s this session, and currently reference 0 factoids.  I'm using about 41976 kB of memory. With 0 active forks. Process time user/system 22975.07/633.36 child 0.17/0.0904:26
DassuSpeedEvil: yes, that happens if you dont have a mplayer plugin but with mplayer plugin mp3's are oppened with mplayer-plugin. I guess telling it not to play mp3's is to best option04:26
DocScrutinizer[2010-05-10 03:22:50] <DocScrutinizer> factstats total04:27
DocScrutinizer[2010-05-10 03:23:37] <DocScrutinizer> total04:27
SpeedEviljacekowski: like wine - you only really need to do the common calls04:27
SpeedEvilDassu: ah04:27
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: not really04:27
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: iphone definition of basic is different than mine04:27
MohammadAG_DocScrutinizer, currently reference 0 factoids04:27
SpeedEvilCommonly used calls I mean.04:27
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG_: yes :-004:27
SpeedEvilIf no app uses them...04:27
MohammadAG_DocScrutinizer, no restore thing?04:28
jacekowskiSpeedEvil: the problem is that just hello world uses like 100 different calls04:28
infobotjoerg is probably a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko, usually known as DocScrutinizer04:28
SpeedEviljacekowski: Impressive.04:28
DocScrutinizer~factinfo joerg04:28
infobotjoerg -- created by jOERG <> at Thu Oct 23 12:00:02 2008 (563 days); it has been requested 23 times, last by DocScrutinizer, 14s ago; it has been locked by jOERG.04:28
jacekowskicocoa hello world i mean04:28
jacekowskiconsole hello world would be simpler04:28
* SpeedEvil ponders cocoa.04:28
* SpeedEvil gets up to get some.04:29
jacekowskiand i'm just wondering if somebody who has mac and is able to install iphone sdk to give me little bit of help04:29
MohammadAG_~Ubuntu MohammadAG_04:29
dotblank~factinfo dotblank04:29
infobotdotblank: there's no such factoid as dotblank04:29
MohammadAG_~Ubuntu MohammadAG_04:29
MohammadAG_~factinfo Ubuntu04:29
infobotubuntu -- last modified at Tue Oct 25 18:33:34 2005 by sinplomo; it has been requested 2 times, last by pcj at Fri Nov 21 10:46:58 2008.04:29
jacekowskigood night04:30
jacekowskitime to sleep04:30
DocScrutinizershe's sick04:30
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infobotNot on your life cowboy :(, or are you using Window$?04:30
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MohammadAG_why is that a factoid...04:31
MohammadAG_~wtf MohammadAG_04:31
DocScrutinizerk, I know how to kill her04:31
infobotGee...  I don't know what MohammadAG_ means...04:31
MohammadAG_~wtf lol04:31
infobotLOL: laughing out loud04:31
MohammadAG_that might come handy04:31
omarwhat's going on in here04:31
omarplaying w/chat bots?04:32
MohammadAG_DocScrutinizer, ctrl+c :P04:32
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infobotI'm on 17 channels: #debian/921, #openmoko-cdevel/95, ##guleague/13, ##ducleague/11, #webos-internals/4, ##bz-inc/4, ##icf/3, #asterisk/2, #oe/2, #maemo/1, #utah/1, #meego/1, #elinux/1, ##pxe/1, #tomcat/1, #bzflag/004:36
infoboti've cached 1061 users, 1035 unique users, distributed over 17 channels.04:36
infobotI'm on 19 channels: #debian/921, #openmoko-cdevel/95, ##kierra/20, ##guleague/13, #debian-bots/13, ##ducleague/11, #webos-internals/4, ##bz-inc/4, ##icf/3, #asterisk/2, #oe/2, #maemo/1, #utah/1, #meego/1, #elinux/1, ##pxe/1, #tomcat/1, #bzflag/004:36
infoboti've cached 1094 users, 1051 unique users, distributed over 19 channels.04:36
Macerwonder if there are any zimbra apps for maemo04:36
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG_: confess!! YOU rebooted her04:37
rasterDocScrutinizer: docz!04:38
MohammadAG_:O how'd you know?!04:38
DocScrutinizermoin raster04:38
DocScrutinizer~attack MohammadAG_04:38
rasterhow goes?04:39
* MohammadAG_ is off04:40
MohammadAG_Night all04:40
DocScrutinizersince today I pay half price at the public pool04:40
DocScrutinizernight MohammadAG_04:40
MohammadAG_oh the 16800 seconds passed?04:40
MohammadAG_Happy bday DocScrutinizer :)04:40
rasterDocScrutinizer: that's proof. you ARE old now :)04:40
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TermanaDocScrutinizer, your birthday today?04:41
DocScrutinizermanaged to get past that annoyance04:41
MohammadAG_the day host mode was announced :P04:42
TermanaWell, happy birthday for yesterday :P Why do you think it was an annoyance? :P04:42
MohammadAG_birthday are exciting, till you reach 1704:43
DocScrutinizergetting one year older in one day... that's clearly an annoyance04:43
infobotI'm on 34 channels: #debian/921, #kde/364, #openmoko-cdevel/95, #htc-linux/83, #curseforge/53, ##kierra/20, #elive/19, #debianppc/13, ##guleague/13, #debian-bots/13, ##ducleague/11, #botpark/9, #arl/8, #linuxpakistan/8, #debian-france/6, #webos-internals/5, #dub/4, ##bz-inc/4, ##icf/3, #gsoc/2, #asterisk/2, #oe/2, #casualti/1, #maemo/1, #utah/1, #meego/1, #wowhead/1, #nslu2-linux/1, #uclibc/1, #elinux/1, ##pxe/1, #tomcat/1, #bzflag/004:46
infoboti've cached 1668 users, 1527 unique users, distributed over 34 channels.04:46
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DocScrutinizergood, she's slow. Will reach the 240 chan in 3 hours or so04:46
MohammadAG_oh, right, night :P04:47
DocScrutinizer~attack MohammadAG_04:48
* MohammadAG_ dies04:48
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DocScrutinizerraster: wondering if I should move to .au ;-)04:49
wall[e]nokia license term for flashing is very confusing04:50
wall[e]also including a ( without a )04:50
wall[e]and a page of string conflicting with previously declared gpl04:51
* wall[e] click accept and move forward.04:51
wall[e]nobody care reading this even themselves!04:52
DocScrutinizerhack the site and replace it by "Nokia owes you 500$ if you click <accept>" :-P04:53
GeneralAntilleswall[e], how does it conflict with the GPL?04:53
wall[e]GeneralAntilles, no, actually they weren't affect04:54
wall[e]like All right reserved never effect gpl context04:54
wall[e]just confusing04:54
wall[e]for non legal04:54
wall[e]stuffs like, this is GPL, and then following by reverse engineering isn't allowed04:55
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SpeedEvilThat does not make the license invalid on its face.04:55
SpeedEvilIt means they are infringing teh copyright of the GPL by using it in an unauthorised manner04:55
SpeedEvilbut having an invalid license doesn't automatically give you any form of license.04:56
wall[e]gpl invalidated the part04:56
rasterDocScrutinizer: you can have our great firewall to play with!04:56
DocScrutinizeroh nice04:56
* DocScrutinizer wonders how Australians keep calm on their Gvmt planning to implement little china04:59
rasterthey don't04:59
rasterbut the govt doesnt give a crap04:59
rasterneither doesw the opposition04:59
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rasterit puts more power in the hands of the govt04:59
DocScrutinizerhmm, so it's riot time05:00
rasterand govt is all about accumulation of power - as that justifies them taking more money05:00
rasteraustralians are not that type05:00
rasterinstead we just bitch05:00
wall[e]anything not effect blender dev would be nice05:00
wall[e]will they have chinese wall around that?05:00
rasterblender dev?05:01
wall[e]a few au are deving blender05:01
wall[e]which is the app i used for living05:01
rasteryou need to read up on it05:01
rasterits not to do with affec ting blender devs05:01
rasterthe firewall is so weak - u can bypass it trivially05:02
rasterthe point is - it's the govt  telling people what they can and cant see05:02
rasterand the list of those things is secret05:02
DocScrutinizerooh nice05:02
DocScrutinizerthey copied the German Idiocy05:02
wall[e]only saw riot part, hehe05:02
rasterand the govt insists on doing this despite in polls something like 95%$ of people polled don't want the filter05:02
rastererr 95%05:02
rasterso regardless of what peolpe want - the govt will do it because they are pandering to special interest groups05:03
rasterand the senator in charge is a bit of a fundamentalist christian himself05:03
rasterits not the govt governing for the people.05:03
DocScrutinizer~nuke fundamentalists05:03
rasterthats plain to see05:03
rasterit's doign whatever the hell it feels like to keep buddies happy05:03
rasterthe firewall wont affetc those smart enough to know there is a bypass05:04
rasterbut it will affect the "unwashed masses"05:04
rasterand thats all the govt needs to be able to use it as a tool to "sway the masses"05:04
DocScrutinizerDNS filter?05:04
wall[e]is tor outlawed?05:05
rastertransparent port 80 proxy05:05
rasterthats all it is05:05
rasterno it isnt05:05
rasterthats why i said05:05
rasterits trivial to get around05:05
rasterits a simple transparent http proxy filter05:05
DocScrutinizertzzz proxy05:05
rastersimply bans specific url's05:05
rasterdoesnt do anything else05:05
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wall[e]we have that here05:06
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wall[e]that works well for the mass though, nobody bother effort to bypass that05:06
rasteryes - idiots. i know05:07
rasterit's more the principle of the matter05:07
rasterthe vast majority of the populatin does not want it05:07
rastera democracy is about governing for the people05:07
rasterbut the govt doesnt give a shit - it will do whatever it likes05:07
rasterthis isnt a "togh measure needed in tough times and of course its unpopular"05:07
rasterits a mechanism for control and accretion of power05:08
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SpeedEvilThe notable feature of accretion disks is the holes at the centre.05:08
DocScrutinizerhow iwll they enforce it?05:08
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DocScrutinizerI mean, probably 95% of providers also don't like it. probably 100%05:09
rasterdo by law. all isp's must implement the filter by law, and they must use the govt supplied blacklist05:09
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rastermost isp's dont liek it or want it05:10
rasterbut they will have to by law implement it05:10
DocScrutinizerjust refuse05:10
DocScrutinizerdo a bad job05:10
DocScrutinizerit's expensive05:10
DocScrutinizerit often fails X-P05:10
Termanaraster, assuming the law even passes through05:10
rasterthat will end up an expensive way to fight it05:11
rasteras they will b e levied with hefty fines05:11
DocScrutinizerI assume Australia got no "Volksbegehren"05:11
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rasterTermana: it will because the govt wants it and the opposition doesnt oppose it05:12
TermanaTheres an election in '11 as well for Australia, I think, so we can just vote someone else that will get rid of it, in.05:12
Termanaraster, I thought the opposition opposed?05:12
rasterDocScrutinizer: we do, but the govt calls a referendum05:13
rasternot the people05:13
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DocScrutinizerwe here in D got a new party based on opposition against such ideas and laws. Got a considerable amount of votes though was just 6 months old05:13
rasterTermana: the opposition won't - they have not opposed the filter - unliek almost everything else the instantly oppose05:13
rasterthere is n alternative05:13
rasterthere is no one to vote for who will oppose it05:13
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TermanaWell, looks like I'll be moving out of Australia. :P Anyone want to go to Sweden, I hear they have great internet speeds and lax laws05:14
wall[e]just wonder, i love this, but do politics allow on #maemo? coz it's banned from tmo05:14
DocScrutinizerpirate party :-D05:15
Termanatmo and #maemo are separate.05:15
rasteri wrote to conroy's office - told him that all he will succeed in doing is braion-draining the nation as those smart enough to realise they are just being shafted and democracy doesn't work, will simply leave05:15
rasterand people who can leave so easily are the most valuable members of society - they bring in the most money, ideas, business etc. etc.05:15
rasterso i'm off05:15
rasterau can wallow in its own mess05:15
Termanaraster, where are you intending to move? :P05:16
rasterlooks like .kr05:16
rasterat least they have fast internets05:16
raster:)05:16 - isn't that South Korea?05:17
DocScrutinizerthought you planned Austria05:17
wall[e]and people are so beautiful05:17
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rasterDocScrutinizer: life takes me many places05:17
wall[e]one nation that people looks best among others05:17
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TermanaJust be careful the North doesn't bomb you05:17
* raster shrugs05:17
rasteri wont stay there forever05:17
* SpeedEvil likes Scotland.05:18
rasteri'll stay until i finally have the perfect linux phone out and working05:18
rasterand well... stay as long as that holds my interest :)05:18
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wall[e]how it's perfect if e isn't running on it?05:18
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* raster hums a little tune05:19
SpeedEvilClearly the perfect linux phone runs slackware/fvwm95.05:19
ljpfvwm95 mobile05:19
Termanayou can have that 'perfect' linux phone - all to yourself :P05:20
TermanaThough, you could probably do that with the n90005:20
SpeedEvilDoes anyone have any numbers as to how slow qemu-x86 would be on n900?05:21
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rasterTermana: n900 is mediocre hw at best05:22
Termanaraster, I merely meant that you could probably use slackware and fvwm95 on the n900, not that it was the perfect hardware :P05:23
* DocScrutinizer finds raster staying at .kr for the rest of his life05:24
rasteryou could05:24
rasterbut why?05:24
Termana<SpeedEvil> Clearly the perfect linux phone runs slackware/fvwm95.05:24
TermanaIt was a joke05:24
wall[e]clearly aster has speedevil in his ignore list05:24
rasterthus "why" :)05:24
rasterno - i dont :)05:25
DocScrutinizerat the time the perfect linux phone is ready for rollout, the goalpost has moved quite a lot05:25
rasteri know it was a joke05:25
rasterDocScrutinizer: i know.05:25
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wall[e]anyphone with resistive touch and run mypaint is a perfect phone05:25
rasterDocScrutinizer: tho for me perfect means "fast enough" and frankly - i already have that hw on my desk05:25
rasterhw-wise its "good enough"05:25
rasterand thats just getting better05:25
rastern900 is sub-par in that dept05:26
Termanaraster, if you consider then n900 mediocre hardware, what do you consider good enough hardware currently, that runs Linux the way the n900 does (not Android) (at least out of box)05:26
Termanathe n900*05:26
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Funnyfacewhat's the problem with the N900 hardware?05:26
Funnyfaceit's great :P05:26
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SpeedEvilraster: What's the problem with the n900 hw?05:27
SpeedEvilraster: I can give niggles.05:27
rastersoftware is the bit i focus on. and for me that means it runs e + efl. x11. is "open" (everyone has different definitions of open and what's acceptable)05:27
rasterwell 1. resistive ts on n900 - fail.05:27
SpeedEvilraster: more RAM would be nice, and some HW decisions are a bit questionable.05:27
SpeedEvilWhy should I care?05:27
rastersorry - resistive is just wrong. it's hopelessly insensitive, can'td do multiple touches.05:27
SpeedEvilIt just works?05:27
TermanaI don't think there is actually ANY other phone, besides Freerunner and the first Openmoko phone, on the market that run a full normal linux stack out of the box05:28
SpeedEvilI agree on the second.05:28
wall[e]capacitive ts on other without pressure sensitivity - fail05:28
Funnyfaceraster: it's sensitive enough :P05:28
rasterlcd - sub-par. amoled thanks. super amoled.05:28
timeless_mbpraster: how's e's support for multitouch?05:28
SpeedEvilI disagree totally on the first05:28
DocScrutinizerraster: it can do mt05:28
rasterFunnyface: use capacitive ts's for a while and you will realise just how bad it is05:28
SpeedEvilThe screen is quite good enough for me.05:28
wall[e]some resistive will do multi touch, just not n900's :(05:28
rastertimeless_mbp: it's there.05:28
SpeedEvilraster: What aspect of the screen is bad?05:29
TermanaAnd I'm not even sure the Freerunner and 1973 can still be brought, let alone the fact I would consider the hardware subpar to the n90005:29
wall[e]but most cap screen are junk for painting05:29
rasterSpeedEvil: iuntil u stick it side by side with a super amoled screen - u dont know what you're missing05:29
rasterblack is not blacxk05:29
wall[e]unless you want junk in return05:29
rasterits grey05:29
Funnyfacethe display is great, great colours, great resolution :P05:29
SpeedEvilTermana: The neo1973 can be bought. I will sell mine for only ONE BILLION DOLLARS!05:29
rastercolours are washed out05:29
timeless_mbpraster: please continue your list past point 1.05:29
rastertimeless_mbp:  already on #205:29
rastercpu is relatively slow05:29
FunnyfaceI can help you add a second point to your list :P05:29
SpeedEvilraster: Fair enough - the screen is arguable. I disagree on ts.05:29
Funnyfaceit lacks some hardware buttons on the front panel05:30
TermanaSpeedEvil, Good luck ever trying to sell it for that :P05:30
rasterthese days - the stuff i have in front of me in raw compute is 2x what the n900 manages05:30
rasterand its only clocking  in at 800mhz05:30
rastermostly because the memory subsystem is better05:30
SpeedEvil2* is not actually that interesting.05:30
rastermuch better05:30
Termanaraster, development boards?05:30
rastergpu-wise it's about 3-4x what the n900 does05:30
SpeedEvilThe harder issue is getting the sw people to do sane stuff.05:30
SpeedEvilraster: and that's apps again.05:30
rasterfull on device in a case05:30
wall[e]DocScrutinizer, can n900's ts and not strontum ts do mt?05:30
rasterprorotype admittedly05:30
timeless_mbpraster: what's the price point?05:31
SpeedEvilraster: Sure - you've got shiny hardware. Needs app-devels to do it.05:31
timeless_mbplast i checked, protos ran somewhere upwards of 6kCUR05:31
rasterno price point05:31
timeless_mbpmost people aren't willing to shell out 6kCUR05:31
wall[e]but i only see mt useful for musicians05:31
timeless_mbpyou're comparing a product which isn't on the market with one that is05:31
rasterits the same hw that is in production devices though05:31
timeless_mbpthis is fair, how?05:31
SpeedEvilWith one that has been for 6 months even05:31
rastertimeless_mbp: scroll back and see where the discussion started05:32
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timeless_mbpsuppose i had a proto on my desk at the office which had better specs05:32
Termanaraster, what hardware are we talking? (cpu etc.)05:32
timeless_mbp(i don't have a desk, so.. it's purely hypothetical)05:32
SpeedEvilI note also that there would be a 'drop in' CPU speed improvement for the n90005:32
Termanawhat SoC rather05:32
DocScrutinizerwall[e]: afaik not05:32
SpeedEvilWith the faster grade of SoC05:32
SpeedEvil(drop-in for nokia)05:32
wall[e]i see thanks05:32
raster<raster> DocScrutinizer: tho for me perfect means "fast enough" and frankly - i already have that hw on my desk05:32
timeless_mbpthe discussion seemed to start with governments and isps and idiots05:32
raster<raster> hw-wise its "good enough"05:33
raster<raster> and thats just getting better05:33
rasterthe hw on my desk inside the prototype is the same thats rolling out in announced products already05:33
rasterthey are shipping soon i think05:33
rastersame as galaxy s and wave05:33
* wall[e] must miss some points05:34
rasterDocScrutinizer said i'd be waiting for the perfect phone forever05:34
rastermy point is - i have hw that is already good enough05:34
rasterand it just gets better05:34
rastern900 is below my expectations05:34
Funnyfacewhat device do you have?05:34
raster(its also horribly bulky - another point iwas going to make)05:34
timeless_mbphe has a product which isn't on the market yet05:34
rasterFunnyface:  prototypes05:34
Funnyfacewell it's an internet tablet :P05:35
SpeedEvilraster: Does your hw have hardware keyb?05:35
wall[e]how about china made phones?05:35
wall[e]those run androids05:35
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timeless_mbpand is comparing it with a product which has been available for ~9months05:35
* wall[e] doesn't like hw kb05:35
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wall[e]hard to press, doesn't support my language05:35
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SpeedEviltimeless: ~6 surely05:35
rasterSpeedEvil: no. and i'm happy enough without it as the screen is sensitive and mt-capable already (and enabled with drivers etc.)05:35
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timeless_mbpSpeedEvil: shrug, 6 months is december05:35
SpeedEviltimeless: 7 maybe05:35
timeless_mbpit was available for show in august05:35
rasterwall[e]: china phones are all 2g (well almost all)05:35
FunnyfaceI like HW keyboard, but regardless of whether people like it or not, it's better to have one there than to not have it05:35
Funnyfacethe N900 has both :P05:35
wall[e]raster, ah I see05:36
rasteralso tend to be very low-spec otherwise too05:36
timeless_mbpi was able to show it to my sister then05:36
SpeedEviltimeless: I was counting from first orders arriving at users05:36
asjWrkthe n900 on screen kb is fairly useless05:36
Funnyfacethere may be situations where touch only is shit05:36
wall[e]yeh better not have them05:36
wall[e]i use them for playing game05:36
rasteranyway - point is. hw is there/. software isn't05:36
rasterbeing worked on05:36
Funnyfacefor example, try playing any games that are not specifically designed for touch or tilting on a touchscreen05:36
Termanaraster, what do you think of Snapdragon SoCs?05:36
rasterneeds to be open enough05:36
SpeedEvilFunnyface: err - no. If you don't use a hw keyboard - it's lots more robust and smaller05:36
wall[e]since mt doesn't work, hw kb is neccessary05:36
rasterTermana: i can't really say. never had one to play with, but what what i read the soc i have here equals the snapdragon or beats it in all departments05:37
rasterexpecially gpu05:37
Funnyfacespeed: well what I mean is that sometimes you'll hear iFans saying "hardware keyboard sucks, so my iPhone is better", the N900 has both :p05:37
rasterits pushing about 2-3x the speed on the gpu side compred to snapdragon05:37
Funnyfaceit's better to have a feature that sucks, than to not have it at all :p05:37
timeless_mbpSpeedEvil: anyway, your metric will delay his proto another couple of months :)05:37
wall[e]hw kb is very slow to type05:38
wall[e]i think05:38
rasterthe n900 hw kbd is nig useless05:38
rasterthey made it too thin05:38
wall[e]only 3 lines05:38
timeless_mbpraster: typically we call that "short"05:38
wall[e]i need 405:38
rasterno space above the top row for fingers to overlap so it makes it hard to type05:38
FunnyfaceI preferred the 4 line keyboard of my old device indeed05:38
timeless_mbpthin is not generally used for that dimension...05:38
rasterthe g1 is massively better in that dept05:39
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SpeedEvilwall[e]: I'm up to 30wpm on it05:39
rasterthe hw kbd on the n900 could probably be thrown out05:39
wall[e]SpeedEvil, how about your onscreen speed?05:39
Funnyfaceanyway it was mostly the OS, and the great display, + decent battery time that made me go for the N90005:39
rasterbut resistive ts limtis the ability to do a good vkbd05:39
timeless_mbpfwiw, w/ pr12, the lack of the fourth row is less of a problem05:39
timeless_mbpand no, i'm not a big fan of the hardware designers for the n90005:39
timeless_mbpwe sadly had no control over the design, it was essentially given to us as is05:40
rastern900 is mediocre05:40
SpeedEvilAnother 1mm of slide would have made the keyoard a fair bit easier05:40
rasternot crap - just mediocre05:40
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wall[e]SpeedEvil, you only type with thumbs?05:40
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SpeedEvilIt's not mediochre. It's black.05:40
SpeedEvilwall[e]: yes05:40
wall[e]ok, thanks05:40
ljpthe whole resistive vs. capacitive debate is subjective05:40
* SpeedEvil can't wait for inductive screens to show up.05:41
SpeedEvilOr memristive.05:41
Funnyfaceactually I think it's good that you need to apply a little force to click :P05:41
wall[e]cap doesn't do pressure sensitivity currently, so it sucks, end of question.05:41
wall[e]oh, with stylus.05:41
rasterljp: any debate like that is05:41
rasterbut what matters is what most people prefer05:41
Funnyfacethat way you can support the phone lightly with your thumb without clicking :p05:41
rasterand statistically capacitive has the votes05:41
ljpmost people have never used a touchscreen05:41
rasteri definitely find cap much better05:41
raster\i can reliably drag shit around with no pressure05:42
DocScrutinizersame here05:42
rasterljp:  if you require all peole in the world to be part of a vote then you're never going to get anywhere05:42
asjWrkcapacitive depends on how it's been setup, they don't have to be ultra sensitive05:42
* SpeedEvil does not get tired exerting a force of several grams on a screen.05:42
rasterasjWrk:  no they dont05:42
rasterbut they CAN be05:42
rasterand invariably are05:42
asjWrkraster: I have 3 here that aren't05:43
rasterand i just throw the thng into my pocket and it stops having the screen touched05:43
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: the contrary - I really like it05:43
rasterand nicely sleeps05:43
rasterwithout getting continual pocket-presses05:43
Termanaraster brings up a good point with the dragging - if you've tried to do this this, on some devices, it plain wont work even with pressure05:43
Termanatried to do this*05:43
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SpeedEvilWorks fine on the n900 for me05:43
rasterTermana: well the cap screen i have is good05:43
rasterits quite sensitive - handles up to 10 touchpoints, though onyl 3 exposed.05:43
SpeedEvilThe whole 'capacitive/resistive' thing is bullshit.05:43
rasterSpeedEvil: i disagree05:44
Termanaraster, mmm works fine for capacitive AFAIK, but not that great on resistive05:44
SpeedEvilThere are bad implementations of both05:44
* SpeedEvil wants SAW.05:44
rasterbut resistive simply cant do things cap can05:44
rasterthe pocket example05:44
wall[e]cap can't do painting as well?05:44
ljpSpeedEvil: agreed. I have a n900 and ipod touch and the difference is negligable, except for multitouch which is a niche function05:44
rasterthat alone imho is worth going for cap05:44
Funnyfacemobhow accurate is cap btw?05:44
asjWrkor the glove thing for example05:44
rasterwall[e]:  of course it can05:44
DocScrutinizerand cap can't do things I like on r-ts05:44
wall[e]raster, pressure sensitive with stylus point?05:45
rasterFunnyfacemob: very.05:45
rasterFunnyfacemob: holding my finger down i can get it to move by 1-2 pixels with a delicate move ofmy finger05:45
rasterand i can control it05:45
Termanaraster, isn't it possible that the warmth from your leg is possible to trigger touchscreen reactions? May not be enough through pants though05:45
raster(and thats 480x800 3.5" screen)05:45
timeless_mbpthe glove example is fairly important in snowstorms :)05:45
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Termana(on capacitive)05:46
Funnyfacemobif I calibrate the screen and pull up the stylus to draw something, it gets pretty much dead on, is capacitive the same?05:46
asjWrkor riding motorcycles05:46
DocScrutinizerraster: but you'll never see the 1..2 pixels you move as the touch is under your fat fingers05:46
rasterwall[e]: u can have capacitive styluses, and pressure sensitivity is normally done as area of touch on cap05:46
GAN900Funnyface, no.05:46
rasterie a finger will deform as it presses harder05:46
rasteri like the fact i dont have  a stylus to worry about05:46
GAN900Capacitive simply isn't as precise05:46
wall[e]raster, but stylus doesn't give area05:46
GAN900accuracy is the wrong word.05:47
wall[e]only finger do05:47
GAN900Capacitive vs resistive really comes down to personal preferences.05:47
wall[e]and when you use finger it isn't as accurate as stylus05:47
rasterDocScrutinizer:  i can tell because i've done measurements.. and i can see by scrolling things too05:47
GAN900Any claim that one tech is better than the other is bullshit05:47
rasterwall[e]: u can have a soft stylus that deforms05:47
GAN900It's only true in certain use cases.05:47
DocScrutinizerraster: you missed my point. you always have a covered touchpoint05:47
wall[e]raster, must build one05:47
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wall[e]not working out of the box05:48
FunnyfacemobI never need the stylus for any of the maemo apps, however with these debian apps that aren't designed for touch, I sometimes use the stylus. it's better than nothing in those cases :P05:48
TermanaOne thing nice about capacitive is it forces you to build a touch friendly interface05:48
DocScrutinizerraster: and I hate hat offset crap05:48
rasterDocScrutinizer: in all cases you do.05:48
rasterewith resisitve and capacitive05:48
GAN900What Nokia needs to do is give their customers a goddamn choice05:48
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rasterif you insist on minimising it - you use a stylus. both types can have styluses05:48
DocScrutinizerno, with r-ts I have a pinpoint touch spot05:48
daniel32708has anyone done a login screen for maemo? or an alternative lock code (maybe letters)?05:48
GAN900Not force one or the other on people who don't want it.05:48
rasterbut capacitive works better in the absence of one05:49
DocScrutinizerby using stylus, nail, whatever05:49
rasterits also more natural05:49
GAN900raster, capacitive is not as precise.05:49
rasterGAN900: there i beg to differ - my actual numbers say it is05:49
DocScrutinizerraster: c-ts can not have a stylus, just sausage05:49
TermanaGAN900, you have an n900 and a Nexus One - what screen do you prefer personally, the n900 resistive or N1 capacitive?05:49
GAN900raster, and "more natural" is about as subjective a statement as it gets.05:49
GAN900Termana, N900 by leaps and bounds05:50
GAN900I've also used all 3 generations of iPhone and the iPad05:50
GAN900Still greatly prefer the N900's touchscreen05:50
rasterGAN900: pointing with a finger vs getign a styulus and writing with it... which one of thses needs to be a learned action?05:50
wall[e]anyway, deform stylus will cover the pixel05:50
Funnyfacemobsomeone actually bought the iPad? :)05:50
GAN900raster, I don't use a stylus05:50
GAN900raster, so your hypothetical situation reveals bias.05:51
rasterand which is done naturally years before you ever manage to learn to use an impliment to point it at things?05:51
TermanaDon't you get tired of that swirl to zoom motion? :P Personally I think thats rather bad, multi touch pinch to zoom feels better. But I guess they worked with what they had05:51
DocScrutinizerraster: I can't use my nails on a c-ts05:51
GAN900Termana, double-tap05:51
GAN900Termana, and pinching is just awkward.05:51
GAN900Termana, besides, multitouch is hardly unique to capacitive.05:51
DocScrutinizerraster: and I get a first hit accuracy of 1mm*3mm this way. Can't ever get that on a c-ts05:52
daniel32708has anyone done a login screen for maemo? or an alternative lock code (maybe letters)?05:52
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rasterDocScrutinizer: good luck with getting that on the bus05:52
rasteror walking down the street05:52
TermanaGAN900, right, I've seen the "trick" resistive multi touch. I don't thats any good either.05:52
DocScrutinizerno problem05:52
Funnyfacemobwell multitouch is a + to capacitive, whether people find it useful or not, its better to have it than to not have it05:52
TermanaNot very useful either05:52
DocScrutinizerbtw I'm rarely on the bus05:52
GAN900Termana, two-touch isn't what I'm talking about.05:52
rasterFunnyfacemob:  mt is requuired if u want a proper vkbd05:52
DocScrutinizerand when I'm I can still touch with my fat(ty) fingers05:53
GAN900Termana, Stantum.05:53
FunnyfacemobI prefer zooming with the +/- hw keys at the side of the phone05:53
GAN900raster, also an interesting claim05:53
rasterDocScrutinizer:  u wont get the accurace05:53
rasteras you, the phone and finger bump about05:53
rasteryour accuracy drops massively05:53
wall[e]Funnyface, pressure sensivity with stylus as well05:53
wall[e]which cap screen doesn't have it05:53
* GAN900 does 60 WPM on the N800's finger keyboard05:53
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DocScrutinizercome visit me, so I'll show you05:53
* GAN900 thinks raster is revealing an awful lot of bias.05:54
rasterDocScrutinizer: sit on a sydney bus and show me :)05:54
TermanaGAN900, yeah ok, there is actual multi touch for resistive - but we're talking about whats actually implemented, I don't think Stantum has been implemented on a marketed device yet05:54
rasterGAN900: when doing a vkbd eventually u will end up pressing 2 keys at once05:54
rasterboth are depressed (u press 1 key, then the next but havent release the first yet)05:54
GAN900Yes, I'm aware of the concept05:54
rasterto handle that proeprly ands not mis-press you need mt.05:54
GAN900Nokia solved this in software05:54
asjWrkraster: I don't think you do05:55
GAN900and not having that doesn't make a un "proper" vkb.05:55
rasterGAN900: where? n90005:55
* GAN900 goes back to reading.05:55
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rasterthere is no vkbd there... so no solution05:55
DocScrutinizerI give a shit on vkbd. that's why I got a N900 with r-ts05:55
asjWrkraster: the argument you make relies on two fingers touching the kb at the same time and releasing at the same time05:56
onefishout of curiosity, have any of you that prefer capacitve screens been using pdas for a longer time?05:56
rasterand n800/80 (os2008 etc.) definitely had zero solution to anything like that05:56
asjWrkraster: which can never happen, so the question is, can you infer key presses with order by using time?05:56
rasterasjWrk: no - i know the solution you are going to propose05:56
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rasterif the point moves suddenly without a release in ebtween you take previous point and extrapolate to guess where the new point may have been05:56
asjWrkraster: there's no guess, you know05:57
rasterhighly problematic to do as that point moves a lot based on varying pressure on the 2 points05:57
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asjWrktoss all the data at that time it's unstable05:57
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asjWrkso you'll see something like Press A----->highly moving press----->Press B05:58
rasteryour other option is to require data to be stable rpreas and release or not for a minimum time to get the next point05:58
rasterand that is generally problematic as its guessing that the ssudden move then stabilisation of point is in fact a new press point05:58
rasterto do it properly you need mt05:58
rasterwithout making bad guesses/losing data05:59
asjWrkyou haven't proven that05:59
DocScrutinizerwe have05:59
rasteryou havent proven the opposite05:59
GAN900raster, Maemo 5 has a vkb05:59
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acidjazzany updates to maemo recently?05:59
GAN900it uses the lift point rather than the touch point for key choice.05:59
DocScrutinizerbut actually, the debate is really far off05:59
rasterGAN900: where is it? as there simply is none on my n900.05:59
Funnyfacemobyou have to enable it in the settings06:00
GAN900raster, settings, close the keyboard, tap a text field06:00
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DocScrutinizerraster: vkbd???06:00
rasterthere is no vkbd setting06:00
wall[e]anyway, is there a way to force vkbd to pop up when the slider is on?06:00
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Funnyfacemobtested it just now out of curiousity.. it covers the whole screen :S06:00
DocScrutinizersure, just close the slide and set focus to textfield06:00
SpeedEvilraster: yes, there is06:01
rasterno vkbd06:01
DocScrutinizerwall[e]: nope, afaik06:01
rasterpress text field06:01
asjWrkraster: I've simply provided an alternative that requires somewhat simplistic data processing, key precess are insanely long and slow events after all06:01
Funnyfacemobworks here, must be your device then :P06:01
DocScrutinizerraster: check you settings -> input06:01
wall[e]DocScrutinizer, :S, just like alt-sym would be nice06:01
ljprasters' n900 is playing a trick on him :)06:02
wall[e]he bought china's clone06:02
asjWrkyou have to turn on the vkb on the n900 it's odd by default06:02
rasterooh there it is06:02
rasterunder input06:02
asjWrkodd is true too, but I meant off06:02
wall[e]check if there are 2 sim sockets and tv06:02
FunnyfacemobI liked how fail my brother's "hiphone" was06:03
DocScrutinizersettings -> text input -> use vkbd (check mark it)06:03
DocScrutinizerraster: ^^^06:03
Funnyfacemobdrained the battery so fast that it came with 2 batteries in the box06:03
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wall[e]i can however, leave the slider 1/10 way and use both vkbd and hwkb at the same time, DocScrutinizer06:04
Funnyfacemoband it could turn photos into a laggy video if you dragged a photo rapidly around06:04
wall[e]but i don't feel so right about that06:04
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rasterthats pretty inaccurate for a fullscreen kbd06:05
DocScrutinizerand WHY the hell would you want to do that??06:05
rasterit doesnt do correction well06:05
wall[e]DocScrutinizer, my hw kb doesn't support thai06:05
* SpeedEvil wonders who might have source for a autocorrecting keyboard.06:05
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wall[e]which can't be implemented on hw kb due to it needs 4 lines06:06
wall[e]but i am thinking of mixing use it with alt-sym short cuts06:06
wall[e]but no character on the panel, so may be a phonetic based is making more sense..06:07
DocScrutinizerI bet there's a way to pop up the vkbd while slider open06:07
wall[e]must look at how ru do it.06:07
wall[e]i don't know how :/06:07
wall[e]but having the slider 1/10 way to open isn't that bad, just.. no light in the dark06:08
DocScrutinizerwell the switching tween vkbd and hwkbd for sure is opensource06:08
Funnyfacemobraster: its a bit about what youre used to as well06:08
wall[e]him something06:08
wall[e]hildron input method framework.06:08
wall[e]didn't have time to dive into that yet06:08
wall[e]i'd want alternative input style widget, like gesture text input06:09
wall[e]i have heard someone done 80wpm06:09
wall[e]was that a joke?06:09
rasterFunnyfacemob: i've done both rs and cs and cs by far feels better, misses many fewer hits, drags better, doesnt pocket-press.06:09
wall[e]good you don't use for painting06:10
DocScrutinizeror writing06:10
wall[e]i know you are good at painting but beat me with a cap ts06:10
DocScrutinizeror just with your nails06:10
rasteri dant write anymore anyway06:11
rastermy handwriting is attrocious06:11
* wall[e] too06:11
wall[e]writing sucks06:11
wall[e]who write?06:11
rasteronly old people do06:11
wall[e]end of the era!06:11
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wall[e]on cap ts?06:12
rasterwith an actual pen and paper06:12
ljpbah! thats so old skool06:12
rastercouldnt do that on any ts06:13
wall[e]i have seen your works since 10 years ago may be when i joined wmaker core dev :P06:13
rasterprobalem is hand always touchsing screen instead of pen06:13
raster(ie hand resting on surface)06:13
rastercap has that prob too06:13
rasterthese days tho - i do it all with mouse and on screen06:13
Funnyfacemobwell you can decrease the res sensitivity I guess :P06:13
wall[e]i put it on the table06:13
rasterfor me drawign with mosue is as natural as a pen06:13
rasterand it has fewer problems :)06:14
wall[e]and part of hand on the floor06:14
rasterwall[e]:  i guess since its small u can do that06:14
rasterbut that drawing is pretty good06:14
raster(the girl)06:14
wall[e]yours too!06:14
rasterthat reminds me06:14
rasteri need to work on my todo list06:14
* DocScrutinizer yawns06:14
wall[e]work time!06:15
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rastergl engine does 90 degree rotates06:15
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rasterwhat else06:15
rasterhmm thats right06:15
rasternested scroller works for key/wheel control06:15
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rasterneed that06:15
rasterthen need to make sliders work in scrollers too06:16
DocScrutinizerbtw my phone has a proximity sensor which prevents unintended touch actions inside pocket much more reliable than any c-ts does by inherent properties ;-P06:16
rasterDocScrutinizer: n900?06:18
DocScrutinizersure, what else06:18
rasterwhere is that sensor?06:18
rasteri dont see it06:18
wall[e]next to speaker06:18
Funnyfacemobnext to the ear speaker06:18
DocScrutinizerupper left corner, next to cam06:19
rasteroh between camera and speaker06:19
wall[e]i thought it was infrared06:19
wall[e]when i tried qirreco06:19
DocScrutinizerand before you ask, no it's not (yet) configurable to do that in all apps06:19
wall[e]and i wonder why it didn't work06:20
DocScrutinizeryes, right06:20
DocScrutinizerwall[e]: IR apperture is next to cam button06:20
Funnyfacemobare there any apps that make use of the front camera yet?06:20
Funnyfacemobother than the mirror app06:20
wall[e]DocScrutinizer, yes, found out a couple days later lol06:20
wall[e]was an idiot06:20
* DocScrutinizer waves06:21
DocScrutinizernight #maemo06:21
* wall[e] waves06:21
Termanagood night DocScrutinizer06:21
wall[e]g'nite, thank you helping us fumbling raster06:21
DocScrutinizerraster and me have more notions in common than we have different ones06:22
DocScrutinizermuuch more06:22
DocScrutinizerjust he has a faible for c-ts, which I don't share06:23
rasterwe disagree on our ts tech06:23
rasterbut thats fine06:23
rasterwe agree on most other things06:23
FunnyfacemobI agree that the n900s hardware may not be the best, but I still think it is good enough, I wouldn't have complained about 128MB RAM or a 450MHz CPU06:25
Funnyfacemobit's fast enough for a device like this :p06:25
TermanaI wonder what all these people that favour resistive are going to do when Nokia goes over to capacitive? :P06:26
asjWrkTermana: cut holes in the end of my gloves?06:26
wall[e]Termana, soon cap will do pressure sensivity06:26
wall[e]i saw a news about that06:26
asjWrkTermana: I'm guessing they may end up with a bit of a mixes bag of phone06:27
Termanawall[e], I think Nokia will be implementing pure capacitive on the Harmattan device06:27
wall[e]Termana, then a bluetooth pen with pressure sensivity is my only hope06:28
TermanaThats probably more speculation than fact though - so either of us could be wrong :P06:28
wall[e]or i'll wait till wacom build cintiq-phone!06:29
wall[e]i plan to use n900 for 5 years06:29
wall[e]before that it was t6806:29
Funnyfacemobhehe my thought when getting the n900 was also "now I probably won't have to get a new device for a few years"06:30
wall[e]is it good for torrenting?06:31
FunnyfacemobI initially thought the same thing when I bought a htc tytn ii, but... I was everything but happy about that device06:31
asjWrkFunnyfacemob: when did you buy it?06:31
wall[e]electricity consuming perspective06:31
wall[e]is it bad to plug charger all the time for torrenting?06:31
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Funnyfacemobno idea, haven't tested it much for that06:31
wall[e]will battery life get down if it has charger pluggged in all the time?06:32
wall[e]will n900 works w/o battery?06:32
Funnyfacemobbut transmission has a warning saying "this app consumes lots of power" when you run it the first time :P06:32
Funnyfacemobasjwrk: hmm...06:33
wall[e]but probably better/lower than my PC right?06:33
Funnyfacemob2-3 months ago maybe06:33
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* wall[e] too06:33
asjWrkFunnyfacemob: so maybe a year ;)06:33
wall[e]my salary is 300 usd monthly, wouldn't afford that in a year06:33
Dassuwall[e]: naw, I dont think so. Using no battery might help but nobdoy wants to do that06:33
wall[e]Dassu, for torrenting while i was sleeping.06:34
wall[e]if that use less electricity than my pc06:34
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Funnyfacemobwell li ion doesn't like to be warm and charged to 100% all the time06:34
wall[e]due to heat generation, it shouldn't06:34
Funnyfacemobthat's the worst storage condition you xan put it in06:35
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Funnyfacemobbut the battery isn't that expensive06:35
wall[e]Funnyfacemob, i guess i can get an expired one just to swap-in for that?06:35
wall[e]if it didn't work w/o any battery?06:35
wall[e]ok, work, need to reflash too06:36
wall[e]good luck for me!06:36
wall[e]first time reflashgin!06:36
FunnyfacemobIve heard it wont work without battery06:36
wall[e]ah too bad06:36
Funnyfacemobbut a bad battery should be fine :P06:37
Funnyfacemobhowever I am not sure if that heat is from the battery06:37
DocScrutinizer51wall[e]: nope. N900 needs bat. And keeping charger connected will not wear bat06:37
Funnyfacemobmight be the radio and cpu06:37
wall[e]DocScrutinizer51, cool! thanks!06:37
Funnyfacemobit won't wear the batt as in "overcharging" it06:38
Funnyfacemobbut generally li ion wears out faster when its warm and fully charged06:38
Funnyfacemobcharger plugged in or not06:38
DocScrutinizer51yes. that's why it's not fully charged most of the time06:39
wall[e]hardware should have something to prevent that automatically?06:39
infoboti guess batteryfaq is
Funnyfacemobroom temp and 60% was the best storage condition if I remember right06:40
DocScrutinizer51nope. 10C06:40
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FunnyfacemobI hope that one day we'll see batteries with a decent capacity that will charge in a few secs06:44
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DocScrutinizer51not over USB :-P06:45
Funnyfacemobwell it'll have to be a separate charger06:45
wall[e]something stick and thrown away06:45
wall[e]likes good old AA06:46
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wall[e]better made of good, so it's good for nature.06:47
wall[e]looks cool.06:48
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: USB4 has a liquid hydrogen line.06:48
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: This does mean that the cables are 8cm thick - but sacrifices have to be made.06:48
DocScrutinizer51cool err cooling?06:49
SpeedEvilNo - fuel cell!06:49
* DocScrutinizer51 wonders if ther's such thing like liquid H206:50
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Funnyfacemobor cooled.. maybe06:51
wall[e]and frozen06:51
SpeedEvilliquid hydrogen exists - it's what the shuttle fuel tank has in it for example06:51
wall[e]wp says 20K..06:53
Funnyfacemobdid you get your drivers license now, speed?06:53
wall[e]will flasher format MyDocs?06:54
FunnyfacemobI think so06:55
* DocScrutinizer51 starts to wonder about SpeedEvil 's nick06:55
SpeedEvilFunnyface: No - funding problems.06:55
wall[e]should I move backup files away?06:55
wall[e]better to it for everything06:56
DocScrutinizer51wall[e]: sure, if you flash emmc06:56
Funnyfacemobyou should hurry up and get it done asap so you dont forget how to drive and have to start all over again like my matw06:56
wall[e]DocScrutinizer, can I flash only the system?06:56
wall[e]without MyDocs06:56
wall[e]ok, thanks06:56
DocScrutinizer51different files even06:56
SpeedEvilFunnyface: Yes, I know. It's not that simple unfortunately.06:57
wall[e]mmm, i guess i'll just backup things06:57
wall[e]just for sure06:57
Funnyfacemobmy device needs a reflash too.. calibration tool is broken06:57
Funnyfacemoband the display is miscalibrated06:58
Funnyfacemobcan't find a solution in the forums other than "reflash"06:58
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FunnyfacemobSpeedEvil: ah well it will be fine one day you see :p06:59
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DocScrutinizer51Funnyfacemob: scan the chan logs for calibration06:59
wall[e]i should have MyDocs under svn06:59
SpeedEvilsvn makes tracker a sad panda.07:00
DocScrutinizer51tracker IS a sad *wombat*07:01
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Funnyfacemobah finally..bochs in the repositories07:06
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wall[e]is that x86 emu?07:06
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wall[e]cool with wine ie will work now07:07
wall[e]or counter strike07:08
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wall[e]anyone make a n900 an ubuntu boot drive?07:09
wall[e]for x8607:09
Funnyfacemobwell bochs is way too slow for that07:10
svanheulencan't say that i have but that sounds like fun07:10
Funnyfacemobit equals somethimg like a 20MHz x8607:10
wall[e]yeh was kidding, but how about simcity 2000?07:10
wall[e]remember simcity 2000?07:11
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wall[e]does dosbox emulate x86?07:11
svanheulenheck yes, i loved that game07:11
wall[e]yeh love lemmings07:12
svanheulenthe first lemmings was the best! the floppy i had it on failed though and i never found another copy07:12
svanheulenit was sad07:12
wall[e]ever play lemmings 3d?07:13
wall[e]i kinda like it. but only play the demo07:13
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wall[e]well, lemmings can turn left-right too, that's all07:13
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wall[e]anyone know if i can get RX-51_2009SE_3.2010.02-8_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin somewhere?07:26
wall[e]that i can wget -c07:26
wall[e]the file is too large for the connection07:27
* SpeedEvil wonders07:27
SpeedEvilno - my dcc is broken07:27
wall[e]may be w3m could help07:28
SpeedEvilI would see if the file could be downloaded with lynx07:28
SpeedEvilset the lynx cookie file to a file07:28
SpeedEviluse the cookie file for wget07:29
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wall[e]hmm thanks07:29
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SpeedEvilor install a download manager for firefox07:30
SpeedEvilhangon - doesn't the normal ff do completion?07:31
wall[e]i don't think so07:31
wall[e]just auto (2) something07:31
SpeedEvilI know 'pause' / 'resume' downloading stops and starts07:32
wall[e]yeh they have that07:32
wall[e]this one i download with ff and it said it's finished07:32
wall[e]at 100M07:32
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wall[e]no idea how to continue it07:32
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wall[e]i also expected some sha-25607:34
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wall[e]bad downloading service!07:35
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kajkoit's quiet here today07:45
rektidetoo quiet . . .07:46
rektidei'm listening to the new crystal castles album on youtube07:48
rektidethats a little less quiet07:48
svanheulenempathy is the best song on that07:49
rektideStskeeps, is mer still going to exist?  or is everyone just moving to meego?07:49
Stskeepsrektide: we're all moving to meego it seems like07:49
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* SpeedEvil hopes the migration goes well.
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manjiriI have been able to configure N900 to connect to my wi-fi network.  Proxy auth is required to connect to internet through this network. I have set proxy server address in the internet connections. When I try to get updates  from applcation manager it says 'Application list partially refreshed. Some catalogues unavailable'. In the application manager log I see : 407 proxy authentication required.08:40
manjiriBrowser asks for proxy user name pwd. App manager doent08:41
manjiriWhere can I set these values?08:41
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RST38hMhm....GPS satellite is out of control08:49
viliny__manjiri: - hope this helps you08:50
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ManjiriI have been able to configure N900 to connect to my wi-fi network.  Proxy auth is required to connect to internet through this network. I have set proxy server address in the internet connections. When I try to get updates  from applcation manager it says 'Application list partially refreshed. Some catalogues unavailable'. In the application manager log I see : 407 proxy authentication required.08:57
ManjiriViliny I chked out the link. Doent work for MAEMO508:58
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Corsachmhm, no fun, I'm stuck in the applications menu ¬¬09:01
Corsac 1083   969 user     R    12128  4.9 97.5 /usr/bin/hildon-desktop09:02
Corsacat least it's not dead09:02
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Stskeepsmorning tekojo09:09
tekojoBack from coffee Stskeeps :P09:09
Stskeepsslowly waking up, kitchen isn't far away09:10
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ManjiriHow does one set proxy user name password for hildon application manager?09:11
StskeepsManjiri: did you set it up in the internet connections?09:11
ManjiriStskeeps: I set the proxy server details in the internet conn09:11
MiXu-I suppose there is no gui way of doing it.09:11
ManjiriMiXu: is there a file I can edit to set this09:12
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StskeepsManjiri: if HAM doesn't support it , it's a bug09:12
ManjiriI need to install rootsh to get root access in order to install apps I am developing.09:13
MiXu-Manjiri: I don't know09:13
* tekojo goes for that coffee09:13
ManjiriMiXu: Thanks anyway09:13
MiXu-You can't take the device to a network that doesn't require proxy username?09:14
MiXu-That would seem like an easy solution to me09:14
ManjiriMiXu: You are right. I have a 24X7 free broadband access that uses the proxy. I wanted to be sure that this will not work before I pay for a connection that doesnt use proxy09:15
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MiXu-I guess proxies that require authentication are quite rare. I've never had to use a username/password for a proxy.09:17
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TigerTaelOne thing which kinda annoys me, is that I'm merging contacts on my N900 but whenever I was SyncEvolution to sync to my google contacts, the merged information isn't updated there. I'm aware that that's probably intentional, but I'd like an option to properly merge contacts.10:09
SafPlusPlusAh... the headaches of linking contact systems...10:12
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* RST38h asks the Tentacled One to own the Gods of Internet10:16
m0sandHi, I'm wondering if anyone else has issues with the media player's shuffling on the N900?  It seems it shuffles once and then follows the same pattern. At least that's what I've experienced with a small set of songs (25-50).10:16
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* achipa_nettop asks the gods of SNAFU (or X-Fade) to take a look at deplib stuff10:17
RST38hGiven that his symbols stuff does not even work under sb2...10:18
achipa_nettopas in, how can depend on three different versions of Qt...10:18
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petterim0sand: it is known bug. Should be fixed in PR1.2 :P
povbotBug 7133: Shuffle all songs often plays a non-random sequence after the first song10:19
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m0sandOk thanks!10:20
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meceoh my.. MyPaint just blew my mind. That is a sweet sweet application. In fact I think it's the sweetest app I have on my N900.10:27
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pupniknice to read that, mece10:32
pupnikany progress on ui?10:33
pupniki notice none of my improvements were used10:33
mecewhat where those? I just installed it the first time, and it turned out to be awesome.10:33
mecepupink, no finger scrolling in brush list.10:33
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TigerTaelOkay guys, I need some sort of software that can import directories of .vcf's, some sort of auto-merge, and then re-export them to .vcf's in a folder. ;P10:39
TigerTaelI guess I could just merge all of them into one big VCF?10:41
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pupnikwhat is a vcf10:42
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pupnikmece... bind all useful stuff to keyboard keys10:42
mecehave you linked that in the thread?10:43
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pupnikit is linked on a t.m.o thread10:45
meceok.. the Mypaint-0.7.1 for fremantle one?10:45
meceI didn't read the whole thing.10:45
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pupnikwill add thanks10:46
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* RST38h is testing a Symbian package on S60e310:48
RST38hSo damn slow... But yes, the phone spent a *week* on and the battery gauge is down 1 (one) bar.10:49
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pupnikwhat model?10:49
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asjI'm guessing an n95?10:49
RST38hN95 is just an overhyped ugly brick10:50
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pupnike70 is sexy10:51
RST38hyep, the best form factor Nokia ever produced10:51
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RST38hok, creating a case for THAT has been somewhat problematic, but otherwise...10:52
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pupniki agree now... as a phone it rules.  but i prefer a tablet / porftrait for two-thumb action10:52
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jacekowskiRST38h: n95 is the best symbian phone10:52
RST38hpupnik: not that they couldn't combine the two...10:53
RST38hjacekowski: yea. right.10:53
asjI think you could made the case for the E9010:53
Surfalet's argue about subjective views :)10:53
RST38hE90 is nice10:54
Surfasounds so much fun10:54
asjwhat other phone can you use to protect yourself from a police night stick?10:54
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RST38hlooks like a hidden gun holster when you are carrying it in your jacket, but cool otherwise10:54
Surfanokia 161010:54
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pupniki would sell body parts for an updated maemo/meego clamshell phone similar to, but smaller than E90, with n900-sized keys in 5 rows10:57
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RST38hpupnik: I heard Chinese will buy some body parts11:03
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Khertan_HomeHi !11:15
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lbthi Khertan_Home....11:18
Khertan_Homehi lbt11:18
lbtKhertan_Home: were you unhappy with the maemo Extras QA process?11:18
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Khertan_Homelbt, yes i didn't like it11:19
Khertan_Homewhy ?11:19
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lbtI'm working through how this will appear when we deploy an OBS for Fremantle/harmattan and meego11:20
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Khertan_Homelbt, hum ... interesting ...11:22
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lbtdid you see my post on planet?11:23
X-FadeDoes not fix Khertan's issue.11:23
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lbtX-Fade: doesn't it?11:23
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Khertan_HomeWhy ?11:23
RST38hOk, whoever is interested, the Symbian version of Speccy is up11:23
X-FadeHe wanted to have his app available for everybody, but without QA.11:23
X-FadeThat is never going to happen.11:24
X-FadeSure, you can have your own repo, but that is what he has now.11:24
RST38hHey, X-Fade, could you solve my issue? :)11:24
lbtI think it's in between X-Fade11:24
Khertan_HomeX-Fade, the problem is n't the QA ... but the actual QA ...11:24
lbtit's on the same infra which means it's reliable insofar as it won't vanish11:24
Khertan_Homeand a PPA ...  is nice11:24
RST38hX-Fade: Your super duper symbols package only works with Squeeze tools and Squeeze tools are not available for SB211:25
X-Fadelbt: He still needs to push to extras, if he wants to have the big audience.11:25
Khertan_Homeit s package builded from source11:25
lbtfully agree11:25
Khertan_HomeX-Fade, i forgot this idea :)11:25
X-FadeRST38h: SB2 uses host tools, rght?11:25
RST38hX-Fade: nOpe.11:25
RST38hIt did once, but not for a long time =(11:25
X-FadeRST38h: Well, SB2 is kind of deprecated it seems.11:25
RST38hBTW, could someone tell me why not being in Extras means less audience?11:26
RST38hX-Fade: Isn't SB2 what Nokia is planning to replace SB1 with?11:26
X-FadeRST38h: End users don't add repos.11:26
X-FadeRST38h: Doesn't look like it.11:26
lbtExtras is at least on the device by default11:26
RST38hX-Fade: But they do not have to, they just need to click on the Install thing on his page, righr?11:26
X-FadeRST38h: SB is dead in MeeGo anyway.11:27
Shapeshifterprivate repositories are a bother11:27
RST38hX-Fade: Well, there seems to be SB2 development going on at Nokia, people respondign to emails etc11:27
lbtI personally don't think PPAs should be a mass-deployment thing11:27
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Khertan_HomeRST38h, this is the reallity ... everyone doesn't add external repository, some reading talk didn't do it due to many warning available everywhere11:27
X-FadeRST38h: Yes, but how would they ever find that .install ;)11:27
lbtI would like them to support a much quicker cycle time11:27
RST38hX-Fade: Web search? TMO announcement? Planet Maemo post?11:27
Khertan_HomeX-Fade, on maemo.org11:28
lbtwith dedicated followers of an application able to subscribe11:28
Khertan_HomeX-Fade, on
X-FadeRST38h: 1% of all users, will probably do that yes.11:28
RST38hX-Fade: I mean, any of these are better than finding your package in a slow-scrolling list of 100+ packages in App Manager11:28
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Khertan_HomeX-Fade, exactly ... but i ll say from my stats 2% :)11:28
lbtwe have the facility to offer something like that11:28
RST38hKhertan: You should market the same way people always marketed their shareware11:29
lbtalthough I'm getting to the point where I need help making the OBS chroot work11:29
X-Fadelbt: I think the 'home' builds have more value as they are linked to the actual repo they can be added to.11:29
RST38hKhertan: Make a web page with a huge install link. Regularly announce at t.m.o and ask bloggers say a word for you in their blogs11:29
X-Fadelbt: And will never get out of date because they can follow updates in the 'parent' repo.11:29
lbtyep... and someone can fork them11:30
lbtno namespace issues11:30
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RST38hKhertan: This is no different from the way it has always been done. I am not sure where the current app store fixation is coming from11:30
* lbt has json-glib building BTW11:30
lbtwhich is the build-dep for conboy11:30
Khertan_HomeRST38h, it ll never come to fremantle ...11:30
RST38hKhertan: what will never come?11:30
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X-FadeIt seems we need to fix mimetypes on the FE, downloads are being served up with weird mime.11:31
Khertan_HomeRST38h, ovi store for selling paid apps11:31
X-Fadelbt: ^^11:31
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lbtyes... have you seen
X-Fadelbt: No, I saw it in the FE overview though.11:32
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lbtso right now I'm having problems making fakeroot-tcp work in chroot11:33
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lbtalso mount --bind doesn't work in qemu11:33
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lbtso I'm adapting base-files to do better tests11:33
X-Fadelbt: Latest qemu?11:33
lbtit's the suse-special qemu11:33
lbtthey're pretty much upstrea,11:34
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TigerTaelWhere are the contacts stored on the N900? SQL/XML/?11:34
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X-Fadelbt: Ok, just though we could ask Riku perhaps.11:35
CorsacTigerTael: sqlite11:35
lbtX-Fade: *nod*11:36
TigerTaelCorsac, does that include IM contact details?11:36
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CorsacI think so, not sure11:36
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RST38hKhertan: Screw Ovi Store11:37
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RST38hKhertan: I have been selling through eSellerate for years, and it worked11:37
RST38hKhertan: All this talk about Ovi Store sounds like some kind of anal fixation to me11:37
Corsacdon't you like anal fixation?11:38
Corsac(you don't have to answer that)11:38
RST38hCorsac: no, I find it unnatural11:38
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RST38hKhertan: People honestly think that Ovi is the *only* way for them to sell their stuff11:38
RST38hKhertan: In spite of Ovi being rather broken, requiring high fees, corporate insurance, and allowing everyone to just steal paid content right from the repos11:39
alteregoIt's not at all when you're a developer like the majority here :P11:39
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Khertan_HomeRST38h, it s more a Visibility Fixation11:42
Khertan_HomeRST38h, no one care test things in non-free maemo repository11:42
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RST38hKhertan: my stuff gets tested11:42
RST38hKhertan: not without some coaxing though11:42
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Khertan_HomeRST38h, i ve lost any hope11:43
RST38hBut yes, this "testing" requirement for Extras has become mostly a political hurdle11:43
achipa_nettop~poke X-Fade11:43
RST38hIt no longer has anything to do with actually testing apps11:43
Khertan_HomeRST38h, i 'm now doing things for myself11:43
X-Fadeachipa_nettop: here11:43
Khertan_Homeif it s usefull for other ... i said ... add my repository to your app manager ...11:44
achipa_nettopX-Fade: is the shlibs thingie supposed to work with Qt libs ?11:44
Khertan_HomeRST38h, and if noone is happy with that ... i answer : do it yourself11:44
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achipa_nettopX-Fade: see
achipa_nettopit managed to depend on 3 different versions of Qt11:44
pupnikqt libs are a mess for me too achipa_nettop11:45
Khertan_HomeRST38h, anyway i didn't care anymore of trying to made my apps available on extras ...11:45
pupnikphototranslate wont run here11:45
X-Fadeachipa_nettop: Yes, and this is bad why?11:45
Khertan_HomeRST38h, i ve made my own repository ... source published on gitorius ... and bugtracker is on
X-Fadeachipa_nettop: They are all >=11:45
achipa_nettopX-Fade: plus, I’m not sure why libqt4-gui (>= 4.5.3~git20090723-0maemo6+0m5) is a missing dependency - that is the one in PR1.111:46
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Khertan_HomeRST38h, and as many claim : it s haven't destroy the maemo community11:46
X-Fadeachipa_nettop: Firmware in the interface is PR1.011:46
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achipa_nettopX-Fade: it is inherently wrong to mix qt versions, especially since in Maemo we’re not binary compatible11:47
X-FadePackages interface views from a PR1.0 pov.11:47
X-Fadeachipa_nettop: It doesn't mix.11:48
RST38hX-Fade: why not update it to 1.1.1?11:48
X-Fadeachipa_nettop: It just says that it needs at least that version.11:48
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X-Fadeachipa_nettop: In practice this will give you only one version anyway.11:48
X-FadeRST38h: Because not all devices can run PR1.1.111:48
achipa_nettopX-Fade: but it’s the wrong version. My app compiles against PR1.0 just fine.11:49
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achipa_nettop(yes, PR1.1 has cool fixes, but they should be API/API compatible)11:49
X-Fadeachipa_nettop: You must be using a symbol which is only in a newer version?11:49
jacekowskii doubt these are compatible11:50
RST38hX-Fade: What devices cannot run PR1.1.1?11:50
jacekowskion linux most update break at least ABI11:50
achipa_nettopachipa_nettop: negative. PR1.1 Qt and PR1.0 Qt are binary compatible, it’s the same API.11:50
jacekowskiand in 90% cases api11:50
X-FadeRST38h: Onces from providers which don't offer PR1.111:50
RST38hDo these actually exist? Who are they?11:51
X-FadeRST38h: Search tmo11:51
achipa_nettopX-Fade: also, the 4.6 dep is bogus. I compile against 4.5 on my scratchbox.11:51
X-Fadeachipa_nettop: This is all because they messed with Qt.11:52
achipa_nettopX-Fade: I know11:52
X-Fadeachipa_nettop: I really feel this is a WONTFIX until PR1.2 is out ;)11:52
Corsacjust do it in GTK+ :p11:52
achipa_nettopCorsac: GTK+ is a big wontfix in itself ;)11:52
RST38hX-Fade: Will this continue even after 1.2 is release?11:52
Khertan_Homeachipa_nettop, but gtk+ works on maemo11:53
X-Fadeachipa_nettop: Qt is not to be used until PR1.2, that is how I feel about it.11:53
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achipa_nettopX-Fade: don’t worry, they’ll break it again, so you’ll feel the same about PR1.3 :) :(11:53
X-FadeAfter PR1.2 release, we can opt to remove the Qt symbols file. So it only builds against the current sdk.11:53
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* RST38h feels something fishy about this whole process11:54
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achipa_nettopX-Fade: okay, so for now I’ll force 4.5 PR1.0 deps and hope for the best...11:55
X-Fadeachipa_nettop: I think that is the best solution, yes.11:55
achipa_nettopKhertan_Home: I tried, I really did, but I never grew to like it. Plus, for some reason, it was a pain to develop simultaneously for Diablo and Fremantle11:56
Khertan_Homeachipa_nettop, just a matter of preferences, as i found it s a pain to use qt for diablo and fremantle, but i ve not problem with gtk/hildon11:57
Khertan_Homebut i didn't know well qt while i know better the gtk framework11:58
achipa_nettopKhertan_Home: yes, I agree there is huge chunk of preference11:59
TomaszDjust got an e-mail back from mapmytracks, once they are done with iphone and android version they will develop an app for the n90012:04
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rcg-workX-Fade: ping12:09
X-Fadercg-work: pong12:09
rcg-workah great :)12:09
pupnikholy cow.  drawn with default sketch app ???
rcg-workX-Fade: i had some problem with importing packages using the autobuilder .. the problem is: i uploaded some packages with apparently wrong bugtracker links etc. .. then i fixed these and reuploaded .. but still shows the old values12:11
X-Fadercg-work: which package?12:11
rcg-workX-Fade: i double checked the control file and it has the correct values12:11
rcg-workX-Fade: icedtea6, ant, and libjline12:12
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X-Fadercg-work: Maybe it has something to do with your description, that doesn't look sane.12:16
rcg-workX-Fade: ah ok, any hint on how to correct this?12:18
X-Fadercg-work: empty line in description should be <space><dot>12:18
X-Fadercg-work: You seem to be using underscores.12:18
rcg-workX-Fade: ok, thanks! i'll try this12:18
rcg-workyes thats what i did12:19
X-Fadercg-work: the bugtracker line itself looks ok, I guess that the parser just bails out before reaching it.12:19
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phellarvicedtea to N900. Nice.12:24
phellarvrcg-work: Does it include browser plugin and webstart?12:25
rcg-workX-Fade: i just checked, ant and libjline do not have empty lines in the description12:25
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X-Fadercg-work: only checked icedtea, let me check the other ones.12:26
rcg-workphellarv: it has javaws .. not sure about the browser plugin12:26
wall[e]firmware download keeps stop at 100m12:27
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wall[e]i don't know what to do12:28
wall[e]f nokia12:28
Surfawall[e], wait couple of hours and try again12:29
wall[e]several times, i tried12:29
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wall[e]and it keeps stopping at 100m12:29
wall[e]and it doesn't allow continue download12:29
Surfamake sure you don't have any non-connectivity repositories in app manager12:29
Surfait may cause that kind of behavior12:30
MohammadAGwhat does that have to do with it...12:30
mecewall[e], did you wait a couple of hours several times?12:30
wall[e]this is firmware download12:30
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wall[e]mece, yes12:30
Surfawall[e], it has everything to do with it, trust me12:30
mecewall[e], which one are you trying to dl?12:30
MohammadAGSurfa, it has nothing to do with it12:31
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rcg-workphellarv: it's the version from http://camswl.com12:31
wall[e]that one12:31
SurfaMohammadAG, sure it does, i can produce situation like that simply by enabling one repo that doesn't answer, some applications download partly and then stop12:31
wall[e]i download this on PC12:32
wall[e]it has nothing to do with repo12:32
MohammadAGSurfa, ...12:32
MohammadAGread what he said12:32
sivangre all12:32
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SurfaMohammadAG, quickly checking backlog didn't give me any hits on that, but now i see the point.. that you could also give and not just give arbitrary "nothing to do with" comments12:33
fralstimeless_mbp: noted!12:33
Surfawall[e], weird anyhow12:33
wall[e]did they have imie built in in each download ?12:33
MohammadAGit's only a cookie12:34
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Surfawall[e], you sure did try download on another pc?12:35
Surfa..or browser..12:35
wall[e]on another pc12:35
wall[e]not from the n90012:35
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Surfawell, it shouldn't make any difference then12:35
Surfai've seen some browser related download issues like that12:36
Surfabut don't know for sure of course12:36
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Surfasure highly regulated network could cause that too.. but i kind of doubt it's nokia-end problem, which it may of course be :)12:38
fralsbah, so annoying browser registers taps when screen is blanked12:38
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mececan someone point me towards a 24" WQXGA monitor?12:38
dnearyJaffa, Ping?12:39
Khertan_Homei ve same problem downloading image from tablet-dev12:39
Corsacmece: google?12:39
Khertan_Homeseem to be cached12:39
wall[e]it  won't have a problem if they provide a proper downloading service12:40
wall[e]like ftp, with one time passwd whatever12:40
Khertan_Homeas i didn't got this problem using a proxy from a other country12:40
timeless_mbpwall[e]: what country are you in?12:40
wall[e]timeless_mbp, thailand12:41
meceCorsac, google is not being helpful12:41
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meceCorsac, they keep throwing 30" at me12:41
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TomaszDthere are no 24'' WQXGA monitors12:41
mecewhy the hell not?!?!12:41
MohammadAGit's a conspiracy12:42
TomaszDthere is a 27'' Dell12:42
timeless_mbpwall[e]: i had no problem downloading it12:42
meceit's annoying, that's what it is.12:42
timeless_mbpit's possible thailand is not an allowed country12:42
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timeless_mbpthere are countries that are blocked12:42
timeless_mbpe.g. Iran12:42
MohammadAGor the akaimi server's down?12:42
mecetimeless_mbp, why?12:42
meceright. politics. *sigh*12:43
timeless_mbpMohammadAG: it's up. i'm using it12:43
TomaszDmece, look at the NEC PA271W or Dell U271112:43
timeless_mbpMohammadAG: akamai is not the kind of thing that generally goes down12:43
X-Fadetimeless_mbp: But then you get a 401 or something like that.12:43
wall[e]timeless_mbp, it is allowed, just it keep stopping at 100mb, but that doesn't matter, they should just allow thing for something like wget -c12:43
TomaszDthere is currently nothing smaller with that res mece12:43
mecewow, that's embarrassing.12:43
MohammadAGyou should be able to do that12:43
timeless_mbpwall[e]: iirc you're cookied12:43
timeless_mbpjust steal the cookie and feed it to wget/curl12:44
mecemy phone and my 8 year old laptop has better resolution than the latest monitors.12:44
MohammadAGyou need the cookie downloaded using wget12:44
MohammadAGtimeless_mbp, beat me to it12:44
timeless_mbpstealing cookies is trivial. javascript:document.cookie12:44
wall[e]well.. i used to do that... let me see12:44
Corsacmece: your phone has better resolution than latest monitors?12:44
timeless_mbpwall[e]: i have 102mb and going12:45
dnearyJaffa, We should probably announce date & time for this meeting tomorrow12:45
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timeless_mbpat what point do you want me to stop?12:45
meceCorsac, well yeah... 3,5 inch, 800x600. translate that to 24"12:45
meceerr480 that is12:45
timeless_mbpif it's breaking somewhere in the middle, it sounds more like a network connectivity problem on your side12:45
timeless_mbpok, i have the entire file12:45
timeless_mbpwhat the heck would i do w/ it?12:45
* timeless_mbp trashes it12:45 for drpped packets12:45
meceCorsac, 1600x1200 on 15"12:45
Corsacmece: ha, better DPI12:46
Corsacmece: the term resolution if often confusing since usually it's used for pixel dimensions :/12:47
timeless_mbpwall[e]: fwiw, it isn't a onetime use token, it's more of a time limited token12:47
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meceCorsac, well dpi then.12:48
wall[e]working on cookies method12:48
wall[e]since i already have 100m12:48
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meceCorsac, I don't want to downgrade. My old 17" crt had better resolution than my current 20".. it's tragic.12:49
slonopotamus~curse autotools12:49
* MohammadAG wonders where microb stores history files12:49
slonopotamus... infobot ?12:49
MohammadAG... is dead12:49
wall[e]oh, i saw md5sum12:49
wall[e]must be blind12:49
RST38hOMG the Tentacled One has taken the infobot!12:50
RST38hBTW, someone has committed MicroEmulator into the extras. Wonder how many of those J2ME games are playable now...12:50
Corsacpurple tentacle?12:51
timeless_mbpRST38h: does it include an npapi plugin? :)12:51
ShadowJKwhat's npapi?12:53
slonopotamusShadowJK, netscape plugin api, i thiink12:54
ShadowJKj2me isn't useful with browsers is it?12:54
ShadowJKdon't you want j2se for that? :)12:54
* RST38h does not want any java for that12:54
slonopotamusyou don't want applets at all usually :)12:54
slonopotamusRST38h, hehe12:55
RST38hespecially given that java is pretty much out as an in-browser engine12:55
RST38hjust needs a few more kicks in the gonads to become completely gone12:55
* slonopotamus has running for 10 minutes already... die, die autotools!12:55
RST38hwhy use autotools if you hate them?12:56
wall[e]cookie didn't help12:56
wall[e]wget -O RX-51_2009SE_3.2010.02-8_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin --no-proxy -c --load-cookies cookies.txt --referer= ""12:56
slonopotamusRST38h, that's not my project12:56
wall[e]something wrong with my wget?12:56
wall[e]98 97 96 ... seconds12:57
wall[e]rapidshare doesn't work for my isp!12:59
wall[e]what a day!12:59
slonopotamusmeh. it detects that it isn't building static libraries but still goes and checks if gcc/g++ -static works...12:59
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PiotrasX-Fade, ping, Can I use any workaround for python build issue ?13:05
X-FadePiotras: You should check what other packages do, nobody else seems to have issues with this?13:06
timeless_mbpwall[e]: where'd you get your cookies.txt from?13:07
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manjiriHow do I install rootsh withput internet access?13:07
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MohammadAGclick the deb13:08
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timeless_mbpwall[e]: did you properly format your cookies.txt file?13:09
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* timeless_mbp wouldn't use cookies.txt13:10
timeless_mbpiirc wget supports commandline cookies13:10
MohammadAGit does13:10
wall[e]timeless, just a single line, separated with ;13:11
wall[e]i tried 4 lines, for all cookies, doesn't work as well13:11
wall[e]oh let me try13:11
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timeless_mbpwall[e]: that's not what cookies.txt looks like13:12
wall[e]ah i see13:13
manjiriMohammadAG: I clicked the deb, it in turn opens the app manager that show options to either uninstall, download or update..?13:13
wall[e]timeless, i'm going to do sqlite one13:13
PiotrasX-Fade, how many python module packages has been built since SDK/builder update?13:14
PiotrasX-Fade, and which ones ? :)13:14
X-Fadepython-qt4 for instance, on 25th of april?13:15
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wall[e]timeless_mbp, MohammadAG working thanks!13:19
wall[e]just use --header "Cookie: blahblah"13:19
wall[e]with one line ; separated13:19
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MohammadAGmanjiri, wait till it says install13:20
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wall[e]anything like alt-tab?13:25
manjiriMohammadAG: I have not enabled the red-pill mode.13:25
PiotrasX-Fade, "unrecognized option `-Qy'", do you think it's something in rules file which triggers this?13:26
X-FadePiotras: Hmm, let me check.13:27
PiotrasX-Fade, in control file: Build-Conflicts: python2.3-dev, python2.313:27
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PiotrasX-Fade, if this is 'Build-Conflicts', why python2.3 headers include is appended to cflags?13:28
manjiriI need to install rootsh to be able to get root access.13:30
PiotrasX-Fade, "-g -O3 -Wall -Wstrict-prototypes -g -O2 -g -Wall -O2"13:30
PiotrasX-Fade, O3 or O2 ? :)13:30
* Piotras believes builder is broken 13:30
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X-FadePiotras: Does it build in a clean PR1.2 sdk ?13:34
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* alterego wonders what the hit count is like on
alteregos/con/com/ :D13:37
PiotrasX-Fade, I do not know, I just upload it using extras assistant13:39
MohammadAG_manjiri, red pill was disabled...13:39
MohammadAG_what FW are you on?13:39
manjiriHow do I figure that out?13:41
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SpeedEvilmanjiri: settings -> about13:42
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SpeedEvilmanjiri: on the device - apps menu13:42
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manjiriGot it: the verison is 2.2009.51-1. So this FW doesnt have Red pill.13:43
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MohammadAG_manjiri, and it doesn't have App Manager installs13:44
manjiriMohammadAG_:  FW - 2.2009.51-113:44
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MohammadAG_update to 3.2010.02-8 then click on the deb13:44
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manjiriHow do I update w/o internet on the device13:45
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manjiriproxy is blocking access to internet13:45
MohammadAG_remove the proxy then13:45
SpeedEvilshould the proxy allow http?13:45
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infobotwell, flashing is
SpeedEvilSee that13:46
SpeedEvilget the latest firmware file for your n900 and region, and flash it13:46
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SpeedEvilalternatively - if you can get access to a computer with the internet.13:47
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* SpeedEvil wonders if anyone knows where his microSD-SD adaptor is.13:49
* SpeedEvil suspects not.13:49
WolfieSpeedEvil: it's in the same place all those lost DVI-VGA adapters go13:49
phellarvSpeedEvil: It ran that way --->13:49
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r0gcas speedEvil can you help me i am novice13:50
SpeedEvilWolfie: I'd be surprised if I have any of those - no DVI in this house!13:50
manjiriSpeedEvil: I have computer with internet access13:50
SpeedEvilr0gcas: Perhaps. Do you have a problem with spreadable cheese?13:50
wall[e]anyone know if you can separate the 3d movie channel with any player?13:50
SpeedEvilr0gcas: Partial differentials?13:50
wall[e]into 2 views separately13:51
wall[e]so i can cross eyed watching13:51
manjiriMy main problem is: where do I specify proxy user and password so that app manager can access internet?13:51
r0gcasno haha, i don't know what are you talking about but suspect you are kjoking13:51
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manjiriI have set server details in internet connections13:51
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SpeedEvilr0gcas: I am attempting to guess your question.13:51
SpeedEvilr0gcas: It may be more efficient if you state what it is, otherwise this could go on for some time.13:52
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r0gcasmy objective is to get running a gtk_helloworld app in a nokia maemo device, the n90013:52
MohammadAG_manjiri, advanced settings?13:53
amigadaver0gcas: you might like
rcg-workX-Fade: did you have a chance to look at the other two packages?13:54
r0gcasi have done that in scratchbox on the pc with xephire13:54
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manjiriMohammad: advanced settings allows one to set just server IP etc, not username or pwd.13:54
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X-Fadercg-work: No, way too fragmented at the moment. Will look at it later.13:54
r0gcasthanks i will look at that13:54
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manjiriMohammad: browser prompts for the account details but app manager silently fails13:54
rcg-workX-Fade: ok, thanks for your efforts anyway :) .. might ask you later on if i'm at home you don't mind ..13:55
manjiriI can see in the app manager log : 407 proxy server auth required13:55
rcg-work*if you don't13:55
MohammadAG_no idea about that one13:56
MohammadAG_try apt-get dist-upgrade?13:56
MohammadAG_oh wait13:56
MohammadAG_no root13:56
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manjiriMohammad: I think one can set the values in /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/00maemo13:57
manjiribut as you said no root13:57
manjiriso no permission13:57
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MohammadAG_manjiri, this might be useful, although it is very dangerous (if you tinker a lot with the bootloader)
MohammadAG_sudo gainroot in the console can be used, without installing anything extra, to gain a root shell.13:57
MohammadAG_then install rootsh and disable R&D mode13:58
MohammadAG_you don't need to reflash, but you need flasher-3.513:58
SpeedEvilIs there a standard place to put n900 related stuff that does not go through the packager?13:58
SpeedEvilFor example - rescue 'disk' images.13:58
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SpeedEvilerr - I mean - not distributed through HAM13:59
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MohammadAG_don't put it in user/ and it shouldn't show up in HAM14:00
manjiriMohammad: Thanks. I will try it out. Can firmware be upgraded offline: download to PC and install on N900?14:00
SpeedEvilMohammadAG: I mean packages which are not meant to be installed in the normal manner on the n900. (as they are not n900 based)14:00
infobotflashing is, like,
SpeedEvilSee that14:01
timeless_mbpmanjiri: keep in mind that flashing is destructive14:02
timeless_mbpwhereas over the air isn't14:02
SpeedEvilYes, I should have mentioned that, sorry.14:02
* timeless_mbp shrugs14:02
timeless_mbpusers getting advice from random people = stupid14:02
SpeedEvilFlashing will wipe a few settings - though it preserves most user data for normal users.14:02
manjiriThanks timeless_mbp n SpeedEvil14:02
timeless_mbpyou could be giving him a virus or stealing his credit card14:02
crashanddietimeless_mbp: wtf?14:03
crashanddietimeless_mbp: this is IRC, the whole point is peer review and trust14:03
MohammadAG_crashanddie, coffee shortage14:03
alteregotimeless_mbp: don't tell him the maaaaaster plan!14:03
SpeedEvilI could? Cool!14:03
SpeedEvilmanjiri: Can you PM me your CC details too.14:03
* SpeedEvil diddn't know this was allowed in the channel.14:03
crashanddieOMFG LOL manjiri type rm -rf / in the console for pr0n lols14:03
MohammadAG_err don't do that lol14:03
alteregoNo, really don't do that ..14:04
r0gcasi have a question please: the only way to get a gtk_helloworld app running on a nokia-maemo device is through a packaging process, isn't there a more simple and straight for way to do that?14:04
MohammadAG_rm -rf /* for better pr0n, crashanddie's method sucks14:04
MohammadAG_<alterego> No, really don't do that .. ^ applies for that too :P14:04
crashanddier0gcas: copy the binaries to the device, execute14:04
alteregoI remember watching a psychology documentary about how when you tell someone not to do something, they will, inevitably do it.14:04
* lcuk2 sees if it works14:05
lcuk2don't kick alterego14:05
alteregoAnd even though I've known what rm -rf * does, for a long time, I have executed that command in rather annoying locations on my filesystem.14:05
r0gcascrashhanddie i tried that but dosen't work dfor me14:05
crashanddiealterego: yeah, don't tell your kids "Don't eat the lovely red fruits from that tree, it will burn very badly"14:05
MohammadAG_<SpeedEvil> MohammadAG: I mean packages which are not meant to be installed in the normal manner on the n900. (as they are not n900 based)14:05
MohammadAG_not following tbh14:05
MohammadAG_and ffs14:05
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MohammadAG_I didn't see his message till now14:06
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SpeedEvilMohammadAG: sorry - n900 related packages that are meant to be installed on other devices. For example, 'rescue disk' mmc images.14:06
SpeedEvilMohammadAG: SD images14:06
MohammadAGdefine other devices14:07
SpeedEvilMohammadAG: Other than the n900.14:07
alteregoCool, new nokia phones (not N900) do encryption?14:07
SpeedEvilnvm - I need to get this working first14:07
alteregoI wonder what the technique is, would be good to port that functionality to maemo.14:08
alterego(encrypted SD cards that is ...)14:08
SpeedEvilalterego: There is a n900 hw crypto driver going to the kernel now14:08
alteregoSpeedEvil: officially?14:09
crashanddiealterego: I have hardware encryption on my N900 :)14:09
SpeedEviland related14:10
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alteregoOh, nice.14:11
alteregoWonder if Nokia will pick that yp.14:11
infobotit has been said that up is the opposite of down14:11
SpeedEvilalterego: Look at the author14:11
alteregoHah, neat, never heard of Dmitri before :)14:12
crashanddieSpeedEvil: OMG It's a commie!14:12
r0gcasi think it lacks in the setting up environment guide a testting gtk_helloworld app in nokia-maemo device part14:12
crashanddiealterego: he's head of SW engineering at Nokia14:12
achipaThe bomb, Dimitri...14:13
alteregocrashanddie: meego/maemo devices? Or actually head of S/W engineering at Nokia? ^.^14:13
crashanddiemy bad, his official title is "Principal SW Engineer"14:14
crashanddieso team lead14:14
alteregoHe's not even a senior s/w engineer then :P14:14
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alterego -- I like this guys home screen14:15
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alteregoI still wish he wouldn't put them in extras though ...14:16
Corsacwhat are the network widgets on top right?14:16
alteregoCorsac: no idea.14:16
alteregoWell, they're shortcuts, not widgets?14:16
alteregoOh wait, they _are_ widgets.14:17
alteregoMy bad14:17
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r0gcasplease anyone knows a document where to find guidance on testting a gtk_helloworld app in the nokia-maemo device without entering on the packaging process stuff? thanks14:18
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sECuREr0gcas: just copy the binary and run it?14:19
r0gcasit doesn't work for me put line 1:syntax error "(" unepected14:20
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sECuREif you use autotools, the binary is in .libs14:20
alteregor0gcas: looks like you're trying to run a binary compiled for the wrong architecture.14:20
alteregor0gcas: are you sure you've compiled it under the ARMEL target in scratchbox?14:21
r0gcasyes first i compiled in x86 target but then i compiled the same source code in arm target with the same compiling instruction. i did well?14:22
lcuk2make clean the build first :)14:23
lcuk2and whatever other magic spells you do to get back to pristine source14:23
sECuREare you using autotools or not?14:23
r0gcasi have to use the same source code and compiling shell instruction as under x86 target?14:24
alteregoThen copy the binary to your N900, and from a console: ./gtk_helloworld14:25
alteregoOr whatever it's called.14:25
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r0gcasno i don't use autotools i think i use 'gcc <file> -Wall ´--cflags --libs...' something like that14:26
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r0gcassECuRe i will try it but i will suspect the same lack of success. but if not i will thank it to you14:28
RST38hAficionados of Facebook punch-up Mafia Wars will no longer be able to deploy pit bulls as part of their arsenal, following intervention by whale-hugging animal rights outfit PETA.14:30
r0gcasthanks too to alterego14:30
alteregor0gcas: np ;)14:31
amigadavepeople for the eating of tasty animals?14:31
* RST38h wonders if using humans in place of pitbulls is ok14:31
* lbt watched CSI last night... people stabbed to death with sound effects, blood and autopsy.... all fine as long as there were no nipples on show and no animals were hurt.14:33
Corsacalterego: seems it's “connectnow”14:33
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alteregoCorsac: ?14:34
TomaszDlbt, watch The Wire and leave that csi bs behind14:35
RST38hA pair of nice beefy lawyers on a leash, fully suited up, muzzled to prevent poisonous saliva from sprinkling around...14:35
RST38hlbt: It is well known that the only tv show worth watching is the DrWho: it does not pretend to reflect reality in any shape or form =)14:35
crashanddieRST38h: except that the new dr who sucks donkey balls14:36
crashanddieRST38h: he looks like a gay teen14:36
petterispartacus blood and sand, that one has it all :)14:36
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* lbt moves his keyboard a little to the right14:36
RST38hcrash: The last three DrWhos all looked gay. Maybe that is because they are gay?14:37
Corsacalterego: the widgets :)14:37
alteregoCorsac: are, okay :) Cool14:37
RST38hAnyway, it does not trouble me in any way.14:37
crashanddieRST38h: chris eckelston and tenant definitely don't look gay14:37
crashanddiewell, tenant maybe a bit14:37
RST38hcrash: Why should it even matter though?14:38
crashanddieI dunno, I don't like the new guy14:38
RST38hcrash: Ok, he is worse than the previous one and the one before him14:38
RST38hcrash: But this may just mean he requires some getting used to14:38
crashanddietenant was a great doctor14:38
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RST38hwe will see...14:39
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marmouteI'm more concerne about the emptyness of the season 5 script at the moment.14:41
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marmoutelast episodes was pretty plot was meaning less. Previous one was a shame.14:42
alteregoI think they've been okay.14:42
alteregotbh, even though Tennant is a brilliant actor, I never realy liked his Dr.14:43
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dnearyX-Fade, Do you know who has root on
dnearyX-Fade, I need to get some docs imported from Jarmo14:43
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JaffaMorning, all14:50
Jaffadneary: pong. what meeting tomorrow?14:50
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dnearyJaffa, The "let's do a sprint meeting to figure out what we should be doing now" meeting14:50
dnearyJaffa, I proposed on talk that it be Tuesday, 15h UTC (our usual time) and no-one said they had any issues with that14:51
sivangwhat's the sprint gonna be about ?14:53
Jaffadneary: I've not seen that post yet; but the involvement of the staff in that thread has been ridiculously light.14:53
sivangis this about the september summit in London ?14:54
Jaffasivang: What September summit in London?14:54
sivangJaffa: There's gonna be something in september I think14:54
Jaffasivang: There's a conference in November in Dublin, if that's what you meant ;-)14:54
sivangJaffa: oh, interesting, is that the one instead of the san fran that was about to take place?14:54
Jaffasivang: And there's Nokia World at some point in September (that's in London, but involvement is usually pretty light)14:54
Jaffadneary: It's not like "I'm busy" is a good excuse when people are wondering whether or not the bills are worth paying ;-/14:55
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sivangJaffa: I took it there's gonna be MeeGo invovlement in the september nokia developer'14:55
sivangJaffa: summit14:55
dnearyJaffa, Indeed, not much response14:56
dnearyEither on the mailing list or in the forum14:56
timeless_mbpJaffa: ooh Dublin? goody, i haven't been there yet14:56
dnearySo I think it's just "set up the meeting, see who's there"14:56
helluhow many maemo developers are there?14:56
dnearyJaffa, I thought it might be better you announcing the meeting, but I can do it14:56
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dnearyNeeds to be done now, really, if we want it in 27 hours14:57
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RST38hlike iso9001?14:57
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SpeedEvil./flasher-3.5 -l -k /home/user/Downloads/zImage-arm-n900 -broot=/dev/mmcblk1p014:58
SpeedEvilThis should load the kernel specified onto the device, and boot it with the flags mentioned?14:58
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ag0nyWhats the required package for icq integration called ?15:00
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Jaffadneary: I'm not going to have a chance before 1900 UTC tonight.15:01
dnearyJaffa, Are you OK with the time?15:02
Jaffadneary: Send it and CC me and/or council@15:02
dnearyI will.15:02
Jaffadneary: What was the time? 27 hours from now?15:02
MohammadAG<SpeedEvil> This should load the kernel specified onto the device, and boot it with the flags mentioned?15:03
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MohammadAGassuming the kernel flag is root=/dev/mmcblk1p015:03
dnearyJaffa, Yeah15:04
MohammadAG(why p0 btw, the first partition is p1)15:04
dneary15h UTC15:04
Jaffadneary: ah, ta :)15:04
Jaffadneary: 1700 CET. Yup, fine with me.15:04
* Jaffa in Stockholm today/tomorrow/Wednesday15:04
dneary1700 CEST15:04
dneary1600 CET15:04
dneary(but since we're in CEST now, that's OK)15:04
dnearyOh - by the way:15:04
slonopotamus_(/me never got the joke with having partitions numbered from 1)15:05
dnearyCan everyone who has a prime minister please step forward? ;)15:05
Jaffadneary: I have a prime minister.15:05
JaffaJust not an elected one ;-)15:05
sivangJaffa: the dublin event is going to be a maemo developer'15:05
sivangJaffa: developer's summit ?15:05
timeless_mbpdneary: what if i have no idea?15:06
SpeedEvilMohammadAG: yes - I worked that out - still nothing though15:06
timeless_mbpdneary: looks like Finland has one15:07
SpeedEvilMohammadAG: thanks15:07
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r0gcashi, i am trying to execute a gtk_helloworld app compiled under armel target into the nokia-maemo device and i can't. what i do is to sotre the binary into MyDocs in the device and exectue it from terminal. the result is a permission denied message15:12
adeusdon't put it there, MyDocs is noexec15:12
viliny__can you get powertop for the n900?15:12
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SpeedEvilyes vil15:13
r0gcaspowertop what is it?15:13
r0gcasah ,sorry15:13
r0gcasadeus, so i15:13
viliny__SpeedEvil: is it available in some convenient location?15:13
petteri /sbin/powertop15:14
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SpeedEvilviliny__: I think ist's in tools repo15:14
SpeedEvilapt-get install powertop15:14
r0gcasadeus, do you know a way a can store the binary outside MyDocs?15:14
SpeedEvilr0gcas: cp15:15
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adeusput it to /home/user15:15
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r0gcasSpeedEvil and adeus, thanks, i will try it15:15
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adeus..and then give it "chmod +x myapp"15:16
adeusif not already15:16
TermanaSpeedEvil, Captain Planet?15:16
TermanaCheddar Cheese?15:16
viliny__ta SpeedEvil15:16
Termanaoh shit15:16
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TermanaI guess Cheese doesn't start with p :P15:16
SpeedEvilTermana: Parmesan does.15:17
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r0gcasi copied it to ~/ (that is , i suppose /home/user) and execute it and that was the message: "/usr/bin/ line 11: /home/user/gtk_helloworld-1: Permission denied""15:19
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r0gcasDo you know what can i do?15:20
SpeedEvilyou've chmodded it?15:20
r0gcaschmod +x??15:20
r0gcasand then execute?15:20
r0gcasi will try15:20
SpeedEvilWell - I assume so15:20
pupnik15:13 <+wli> Heh, "Greeks promise to repay loan with giant horse"15:20
viliny__apt-get didn't find it SpeedEvil15:20
SpeedEvilviliny__: you have to have tools repo enabled15:21
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viliny__yeah most likely SpeedEvil - i'll try to find the information15:21
viliny__thanks again15:21
r0gcasi did it!!!!!!!!!!!!!115:22
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r0gcasthanks a lot guys!!!15:22
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viliny__SpeedEvil: i got extra and extra devel added but can't find info about tool repo15:22
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marsjePeople, what is going on when someone using Firefox on Maemo cannot use the browse button for uploading files with http? Like to attach a file to a mail in webmail?15:23
r0gcasseeyouu next bug time, and many thanks :) bye bye15:24
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marsjeAnyone wants to try?
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adeusmarsje: worked just fine15:28
marsjeadeus: thanks for testing15:28
adeuswith n900/ff15:28
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marsjeadeus: this person has been able to upload stuff from a N900 before, but all of a sudden it stopped working...15:28
marsjeadeus: if I understand correctly the browse button is disabled15:29
X-Fademarsje: Check if javascript is disabled in settings.15:29
adeusthe page has no javascript15:29
marsjeX-Fade: it should not require javascript... it's a simple POST-form15:30
dnearyamigadave, ping?15:30
amigadavedneary: pong15:30
viliny__Thanks SpeedEvil but i can't see the repo mentioned here, just a deb file so far...15:30
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dnearyamigadave, I saw you categorising pages in the flasher docs15:30
amigadavedneary: let me guess, all about to get overwritten? :P15:31
dnearyamigadave, I will be reimporting all those docs this afternoon I hope - so I'm afraid we might lose the changes :}15:31
amigadavealright, i will hold off for now15:31
dnearyX-Fade, Do you have time to help me out this afternoon?15:31
X-Fadedneary: Depends on what it is and how long it takes ;)15:32
dnearyI'm not too keen on writing pages live into the wiki with the docs conversion tools, but I'd like to get Jarmo's docs into today15:32
dnearyI would like to have root run a back-up of the wiki first, and then run the script to install the docs15:32
dnearyI can set everything up, it should just be running the right command line15:32
X-Fadedneary: import it in a local wiki install and export the pages then?15:33
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X-Fadedneary: That is how daniel does it.15:33
dneary(or alternatively, if you know who has root on
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lbtdneary: can't we use some kind of git repo at the backend?15:33
X-Fadedneary: Has nothing to do with root, it lives in a db, right?15:33
lbtallowing merges?15:33
dnearyX-Fade, I guess you didn't pay attention to the maemo-community thread last month when Jarmo gave out to me because I did that?15:33
dnearyX-Fade, There are a collection of things - DB permissions and filesystem permissions15:34
dnearyImages need uploading too15:34
dnearyAnd backing up the wiki doesn't work for an underprivileged user like me15:34
X-Fadedneary: I don't trust Jarmo's tools.15:34
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dnearyCan you say so on the list then, please, because I'm stuck between a rock & a hard place with docs to import15:35
X-FadeSo we better make full backups yes.15:35
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dnearylbt, For what? The wiki?15:35
lbtor as part of the import process15:36
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dnearyX-Fade, There is a back-up script that saves just pages & history15:36
lbtwiki-> files; new docs->files; merge files; files->wiki15:36
dnearyThat's the one I'd like to do. I did a mysqldomp before, but that has a lot more (privileged) information in there too15:36
dnearylbt, Ah, I see what youo're getting at15:37
dnearyX-Fade, So - can I take a ticket & get some of your time later?15:37
dnearyI don't want to interrupt you if you are doing something else15:37
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X-Fadedneary: Always doing multiple things, so don't wait for that ;)15:38
X-Fadedneary: Give me an hour or so, then I will look at it with you.15:38
DocScrutinizer~hail X-Fade15:40
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GAN900infobot is one ungrateful bastard15:40
* DocScrutinizer fetches doctor for ibot15:40
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DocScrutinizer~nuke busybox15:41
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DocScrutinizer~attack GAN90015:41
infobotSince Fri Apr 30 19:47:02 2010, there have been 66 modifications, 474 questions, 0 dunnos, 0 morons and 290 commands.  I have been awake for 9d 16h 54m 35s this session, and currently reference 0 factoids.  I'm using about 41976 kB of memory. With 0 active forks. Process time user/system 23635.28/648.19 child 0.17/0.0915:41
DocScrutinizerand currently reference 0 factoids.  :-O15:41
DocScrutinizer~factinfo joerg15:42
infobotjoerg -- created by jOERG <> at Thu Oct 23 12:00:02 2008 (564 days); it has been requested 23 times, last by DocScrutinizer, 11h 13m 59s ago; it has been locked by jOERG.15:42
Khertan_Home395313153 octets (395 MB) copiés, 1,91903 s, 206 MB/s <<< nice usb stick15:42
marsjeUpload problem solved: turned device off/on :-)15:42
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dnearyX-Fade, OK, see you in an hour15:45
chem|stcrashanddie: I need more rounds!15:46
Khertan_Homehow it s possible that dd 300Mb img on usbstick take less than 1 seconds15:47
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X-FadeKhertan_Home: Type 'sync'15:48
DocScrutinizer~seen timriker15:48
infobottimriker <~timr@bzflag/projectlead/TimRiker> was last seen on IRC in channel #saygus, 2d 15h 19m 30s ago, saying: 'sorry, have to reboot. back in a bit'.15:48
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Khertan_HomeX-Fade, oh ! thx !15:48
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MohammadAGthat's one long reboot15:50
DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: indeed15:50
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DocScrutinizerKhertan_Home: though 300MB in <1s is incredible even for mere buffer2buffer dd15:52
Khertan_Homebut ... now it s syncing since 10 min :)15:53
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DocScrutinizerthat's actually a god sign15:54
Khertan_HomeDocScrutinizer, not so incredible ... i use an ssd and 16Gb of ddr315:54
DocScrutinizerahhh, ok15:54
Khertan_Homebut the usb stick is old usb2 1go slow stick15:54
Khertan_Homeso things seems normal15:54
Khertan_Homei just thanks x-fade ... as i didn't know that was cached15:55
DocScrutinizerthat's why you *always* shalt "remove safely"15:55
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DocScrutinizerbtw buffering probably does a great job to avoid random writes and instead do a nice sequential write, which should please the flash15:59
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DocScrutinizerwell, dd does few randowm writes anyway I guess16:00
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DocScrutinizerhmmm, forgot the inodes16:00
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DocScrutinizerthen otoh odds are this is FAT16:01
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Khertan_Homehum my meego img still not boot16:01
DocScrutinizerKhertan_Home: just because I'm curious - what was that dd?16:02
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Khertan_HomeDocScrutinizer, sudo dd if=/home/khertan/Bureau/meego-0.90-default-201005101239.usbimg bs=4096 of=/dev/sdb16:02
Khertan_HomeDocScrutinizer, ?16:03
DocScrutinizerKhertan_Home: umount /dev/sdb prior to doing that16:03
Khertan_HomeDocScrutinizer, of course :)16:03
DocScrutinizerotherwise fs will bork your freash image16:03
woodong50__n900 have linux ?16:04
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DocScrutinizerwoodong50__: I like coffee?16:04
woodong50__hehe i like beer16:04
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woodong50__i am chatting on iphone16:05
DocScrutinizerKhertan_Home: bs=4096 ?? o.O16:06
Khertan_Homewhat the problem ?16:06
DocScrutinizerKhertan_Home: not that it really matters16:06
DocScrutinizerjust unnecessary slow16:06
woodong50__if there is a chance , i wanna use n90016:07
X-Fadebs=1M :)16:07
DocScrutinizerfor such things I usually use bs=1M16:07
Khertan_Homeyes ... but for obvious reason ... with 1M i always got errors16:07
Khertan_Home(i think this is due to my stick)16:07
DocScrutinizernah, you seen it's buffered anyway16:07
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Khertan_Home(and it s the cmd use by mic-creator)16:08
woodong50__is it possible to make Web server on n90016:08
DocScrutinizerand if it weren't buffered I'd particularly suggest a bs>64k16:08
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Khertan_Homebut i think that if mic creator use speciffically 4096, i think they have a good reason16:09
DocScrutinizerdon't think so, it's just the buffer size16:10
DocScrutinizerof the dd internal buffer16:11
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DocScrutinizerfor machines low on RAM I'd understand a bs<100k16:11
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DocScrutinizerwoodong50__: sure it's 'possible'16:13
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DocScrutinizerwoodong50__: though a server needs two things: fast disk reads and lots of RAM. Both not exactly the strong points of N90016:15
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SpeedEviln900 is very fast at small block reads16:16
DocScrutinizeraah, and of course a good fat network connection would help a lot16:16
SpeedEvilAnd ~10mbytes/s of read is plenty16:16
SpeedEvilFor many servers16:16
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DocScrutinizerc'mon Web(!) server on N900...16:17
* DocScrutinizer muses about netto diskread while N900 starts heavy swapping16:18
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alteregoWhat if you used the N900 to serve HTTP froma mounted NFS store accessed over 3G16:19
ZogGDocScrutinizer, who is the owner of this chan and in the first place? and why admins and mods not here(or at least here but you never know who they are)16:19
DocScrutinizerI'd say there are devices a tenth the price, which do a somewhat better job on webserver16:19
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SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: sure16:20
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ZogGDocScrutinizer yeah - that i know - that's why i asked you16:20
DocScrutinizer/msg chanserv access #maemo list16:20
ZogGis tehre any connection between talk.maemo and irc?16:20
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* Khertan_Home didn't understand the question16:21
kirmaDocScrutinizer: like... sheevaplug, but this one really amazed me regarding the price: ... it's 250 MHz ARM with 32 MB of RAM and ethernet+usb16:21
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DocScrutinizer  ->We strongly suggest that you avoid configuring your channel to "auto-op". Use the chanserv "op" command to obtain channel operator status only when needed. This will help to keep your channel temperature low and reduce conflicts.16:22
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DocScrutinizerZogG: ^^^16:23
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DocScrutinizerZogG: (connection IRC<->tmo) no16:23
X-FadeZogG: I am the Founder for this channel.16:24
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fralskirma: sheeva plug is twice the price and 1.2GHz and 512MB ram? :)16:25
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* crashanddie hands chem|st more rounds16:29
kirmafrals: well, maybe it's twice the price *somewhere*. it's over three times the price at least to be shipped where I live.16:29
kirmaone of those is cheap enough to be purchased on a whim, another not quite so.16:30
ZogGDocScrutinizer, thanx - that makes me happy — like this
ZogGalterego no way, i don't believe you16:32
SpeedEvil --16:32
kirmastill, there are certainly radically more affordable and sensible options available for a small web server than n900. ;)16:32
* frals pets his sheevaplug16:33
* SpeedEvil pets his old laptop.16:33
* kirma waits for his feebleplug to arrive16:33
* lcuk2 sheevas pet his frals16:35
* ZogG ☭16:36
DocScrutinizersheeva plugs his pet16:36
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BCMMZogG: meaningful, or just noticed that IRC does Unicode?16:37
ZogGsheeva sounds like 7 in hebrew =)16:37
ZogGBCMM, what you mean IRC does UTF-8?16:37
ZogGall my system is unicode =)16:38
BCMMZogG: well, in my client, you just did a /me [hammer and sickle]16:38
ZogGBCMM, yeap - that what i wrote16:38
ZogGcompose key - FTW16:38
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ZogGwhere i check compose system wide symbols?16:39
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ZogGhaha nokia again apple again16:41
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ZogGpatent war =)16:41
* MohammadAG is thinking about being a patent lawyer16:43
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MohammadAGthe more infringements the better for me16:44
alteregopedant lawer?16:44
pupnikuseless litigation makes us all poorer16:45
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pupnikread Stephan Kinsella to learn more about why16:45
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alteregopupnik: you think it's useless?16:48
alteregopupnik: if all the other manufacturers have reached an understanding with Nokia's IP why can't Apple do the same?16:48
ZogGalterego pedolaywer16:48
ZogGalterego it's not about understanding, it;s about slowing down companies16:49
ZogGi think patents are evil16:49
ZogGyou want to be first - try to develop the best thing16:49
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SpeedEvilPatents are not.16:49
alteregoI think patents are evil.16:49
alteregoI'm just saying what Apple are doing is illegal.16:50
SpeedEvilPatents that are granted on a basis of rubberstamp are bad.16:50
DocScrutinizerthe way patents are used is completely perverted16:50
ZogGSpeedEvil, depend, the point of patents to defence indi developers from big companies16:50
ZogGbut it wors other way16:50
SpeedEvilFor example - obvious problems that have obvious solutions - but that solution hasn't been applied to the problem before because the problem is new - are evil.16:50
SpeedEvilFor example you can patent painting metal16:51
jacekowskiyou can?16:51
jacekowskigood idea16:51
SpeedEvilbut you can then seperately patent painting ships made of metal16:51
SpeedEvilpainting cars made of metal16:51
ZogGcan i patent masturbation? i would be damn rich16:51
SpeedEvil(well - the above example - of course not)16:51
MecezogG, but how would you enforce?16:51
ZogGi would patent trolling16:51
infobotrumour has it, patent is EVIL16:51
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Mecezogg, fishing?16:52
jacekowskipatent penis shaped dildos16:52
ZogGZogG is awesome guy16:52
DocScrutinizer~ZogG is a loser16:52
infobotokay, DocScrutinizer16:52
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ZogGahhhh =)))))16:52
infobotit has been said that zogg is a loser16:52
ZogGit's unfair16:52
crashanddie~forget ozgg16:52
infoboti didn't have anything called 'ozgg' to forget, crashanddie16:52
crashanddie~forget zogg16:52
MohammadAG~unforget ZogG16:52
infobotcrashanddie: i forgot zogg16:52
infobotMohammadAG: Successfully recovered 'zogg'.  Have fun now.16:52
infoboti heard zogg is a loser16:53
MohammadAG~forget ZogG16:53
infoboti forgot zogg, MohammadAG16:53
MohammadAG~forget ZogG16:53
DocScrutinizerinfobot: no, zogg is a awesome guy16:53
infobotDocScrutinizer: okay16:53
Mecepoor infobot16:53
ZogGcrashanddie, i'm like all these companies we talked before - you can laught at me or say anything you want - but at least i have to be popular =))))16:53
crashanddie~#maemo is a channel filled with a bunch of puerile wankers16:53
infobotokay, crashanddie16:53
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infobot[#maemo] a channel filled with a bunch of puerile wankers16:53
infobotM$ Access is a database. No, really, a database. A real live multi-user... well, ok, not really multi-user, but a database.16:54
infobotsomebody said n900 was a wooden box with stained cans inside16:54
infoboti heard cartman is eating cheesypoofs and is *not* bigboned !, or was it fat?16:54
* MohammadAG downgrades lcuk2 to lcuk16:55
ZogGis lcuk2 cloning himself?16:55
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MohammadAGno, he's just an upgraded version16:55
lcuk2i wish16:55
MohammadAGusing Qt16:55
ZogGif i clone myself - i'll marry myself16:55
ZogGcause i'm the best i can get =))16:56
CorsacI don't think it's authorized16:56
lcuk2crashanddie, best make the #maemo definition proper before you forget16:56
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crashanddie~forget #maemo16:56
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infoboti forgot #maemo, crashanddie16:56
ZogGCorsac it is - there is some place (don't remember where) you can marry anything - even urself16:56
infoboti heard infobot is the most helpful and smartest of all the bots16:56
MohammadAGI wouldn't want to do that... it's kind of weird16:56
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lcuksome guy married a cardboard cutout of himself16:57
* lcuk saw that randomly over the weekend16:57
ZogGMohammadAG, think of that - that you can always understand and hang out with yourself and neverr tired of yourself, you can be a wingman for yourself =)16:57
lcukwhats worse is when your fake you gets more women than you16:57
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ZogGlcuk don't lie - we know it was you16:58
DocScrutinizerI'm always tired of myself, even without a cardboard double16:58
Khertan_HomeYouhou !16:58
crashanddiewell, he won't be sprouting as many stupid crap as most of us here, so lcuk, it's actually quite probable16:58
Khertan_Homei ve found my nokia agreement about loaned device16:58
* lcuk folds up this chan for now anyway16:58
crashanddielcuk: we send more self-disqualifiers out than any other species of humans16:58
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MohammadAGlcuk, /part seems to help16:58
* Corsac folds back16:58
Khertan_Homei didn't understand why noone answering me where was the adress to return it16:58
Khertan_Homenow i 'm a bit late !16:58
crashanddieKhertan_Home: PM16:59
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MohammadAGkeep it :P16:59
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ZogGsay what?16:59
ZogGsend it to me17:00
MohammadAGit's amazing how ppl lose such important addresses and documents17:00
ZogGwhatever it is17:00
Khertan_Homeok ... haven't see the address17:00
MohammadAGi still have my N900 box with those things amazon put to protect it17:00
Khertan_Homein the url17:00
* MohammadAG goes looking for his credit card17:00
alteregoI think his phone might have been an N900 ^.^17:00
Khertan_HomeMohammadAG, i ve the paper ... it s just that my wife do the paper classement17:00
MohammadAGoh, that means it was binned long ago, even if it "wasn't her"17:01
DocScrutinizerKhertan_Home: simply send it to me, I'll PM you my address ;-D17:01
MohammadAGKhertan_Home, don't! He wants to torture it17:01
MohammadAGDave999's "Medea Downloads PR1.2" starring drunk Laughingstok as Chuck Norris along with gerbils (4,547) <-- bah17:02
MohammadAGthink of all the packages that can be uploaded with that wasted space17:02
Khertan_Homecurrently mine is a bit tortured ... it 's running meego :)17:02
MohammadAGKhertan_Home, that's SW torture, a reflash will help.17:03
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DocScrutinizerI'll tortue it on hw level17:03
Khertan_Homeon what doing overclock ?17:03
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, will get it, laugh diabolically and cut it open17:03
Khertan_Homealready done :)17:03
alteregoDid anyone here actually get an N810 wimax?17:03
MohammadAGnope, he'll tear it inside out17:03
DocScrutinizerbeen there, done that17:04
DocScrutinizerneed new ideas :-P17:04
MohammadAG(he'll start with the screen *hears shredding sound*)17:04
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer, what's the tallest building in Germany?17:04
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* DocScrutinizer shrugs17:04
DocScrutinizerN900fly is a bit silly17:05
MohammadAGI wanted photos btw, you misunderstood17:05
nid05 seconds on teh internets says its
DocScrutinizerFFM I guess17:05
achipaX-Fade: Did I break something again ? :)
MohammadAGHost mode + Javelin + building = DocScrutinizer = terrorist :P17:05
ZogGMohammadAG have you bought it from amazon17:06
rangenid0: Internet fail, then. The TV tower in Berlin is taller.17:06
MohammadAGachipa, wait it out, it takes time17:06
alteregofrals: if I ever decided to use MMS, you'd be my god ;)17:06
X-Fadeachipa: No, needs to be imported still.17:06
MohammadAGX-Fade, is there a pattern for the importer?17:07
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alteregoOn the other hand, I might just install it to have the ability to read them if/when someone sends me one17:07
fralsalterego; thanks ;-)17:07
ZogGKhertan_Home why wouldn't you just give it to one of devs (like one was given to nitroid dev)17:07
nid0range, no.17:07
MohammadAG(every 30 minutes or something)17:07
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X-FadeMohammadAG: Runs every 30 mins yes.17:07
ZogGMohammadAG but you prob payed all the extra money on post?17:07
MohammadAGmay I ask when those 30 minutes start?17:07
MohammadAGZogG, you don't wanna know17:07
frals38/08 is when fmms gets imported usually17:07
MohammadAG530 from amazon, 20 bucks shipping, 34% taxes17:08
ZogGMohammadAG, i bought it from someone who bought it like you17:08
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MohammadAGhow much?17:08
X-FadeStarts at 5 and 35, yes.17:08
ZogGhe bought 2 - wanted to sell prob to make extra money - so i got it cheap cause it is sold in israel also after all =)17:08
MohammadAGall in all mine was about 270017:08
MohammadAGnot back in December it wasn't17:09
MohammadAGX-Fade, 5:35?17:09
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ZogGMohammadAG i bought less than 3k shekels17:09
ZogG2900 i think17:09
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ZogGin box - new17:09
X-FadeMohammadAG: :5 and :3517:09
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MohammadAGmeaning 4 minutes ago it imported packages17:09
MohammadAGmake that 517:10
X-FadeMohammadAG: No, it started then.17:10
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MohammadAGhow long does it take?17:10
Gaaphi all17:10
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DocScrutinizerMohammadAG: 40 minutes :-P17:10
X-FadeMohammadAG: A few minutes.17:10
Gaapi got Mer/maemo running on my archos tablet, wifi works but i can't manage it using NetworkManager, do you know where to add the interface name for it?17:11
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MohammadAG#mer might be of more help, but does the archos have closed wifi firmware?17:11
MohammadAGif so copy it from /lib/firmware on the original OS, whatever that is17:11
Gaapi can scan wifi using iwlist17:12
nid0depends which tablet17:12
Gaapbut can't get it working on networkmanager17:12
Gaapi can use wpa_supplicant too17:12
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dnearyX-Fade, Ping?17:16
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X-Fadedneary: pong17:20
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E0xwhat is a : "community OBS" ?17:21
dnearyX-Fade, Hi :)17:21
dnearyOK - there are a few bits & pieces to do...17:21
X-Fadedneary: Let's take this off channel17:22
dnearyX-Fade, Are you on
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dnearyI'll need a minute or two to copy the toolchain packages over...17:23
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DocScrutinizerdneary: you're managing the wiki?17:24
dnearyDocScrutinizer: In a manner of speaking17:24
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DocScrutinizerdneary: the CSS is crap for me sometimes, esp for editing17:24
dnearyDocScrutinizer: I have the means to make some changes, and I'm one of the wiki admins, but I don't have root on the machine, so changing things like CSS isn't that easy :)17:25
MohammadAG~seen noobmonk3y17:25
dnearyDocScrutinizer: You know MediaWiki allows you to specify custom CSS?17:25
infobotnoobmonk3y <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 3d 18h 2m 17s ago, saying: 'lol :P'.17:25
DocScrutinizerI thought as much17:25
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DocScrutinizerdneary: nope17:25
DocScrutinizerdneary: for editing?17:26
DocScrutinizerhmm, so you suggest I'll STFU and get a custom CSS for to work with Konqueror and 1280*768 ? :-D17:27
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SpeedEvilIt's annoying for me - also on 1024x76817:27
X-FadeThose resolutions are so last century.17:27
DocScrutinizerthe 'index' on the right covering a third of the edit-box17:27
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alteregoUrgh, this class is looking like an evil robot, can't wait until I've finished this module and refactor this horrible beast!17:27
dnearyDocScrutinizer: Not at all17:28
dnearyJust making you aware of that possibility17:28
DocScrutinizerX-Fade: my laptop is of 2008 though :-P17:28
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talecan someone please help me with the partition table?17:28
* SpeedEvil also has a 2007/8 laptop17:28
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: Obviously, you bought a wrong one.17:28
SpeedEviltale: What is your problem?17:28
lcukyeah the onl resolution that matters is 800*480 :D17:28
DocScrutinizerX-Fade: not maemo-certified?17:28
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: Mine is from 2008 too, but is 1920x1280 ;)17:28
dnearyDocScrutinizer: Please open bugs for specific formatting issues in the Website product17:28
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DocScrutinizer'website product'? please elaborate17:29
dnearyDocScrutinizer: I have revisiting the CSS as a TODO item, but as I mentioned, it's not me who will be putting it in place. I have, however, documented how a MediaWiki page gets rendered, and there are pointers to the sources for all of these files, and (you guessed it) patches are most welcome :)17:29
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DocScrutinizerdneary: thanks17:31
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pupnikalterego: there is use for some people but i think we can show that such battles are inherently wasteful to economic prosperity17:34
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alteregopupnik: in regards to patent suits between large companies?17:35
alteregoI'm just pro-anti-apple, anything that tarnishes their reputation is good in my books ;)17:35
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pupnikok hey they aint all bad.  at least the os is good17:36
alteregoI want Nokia to win, so people can see that Apple are money theiving bitches :P17:36
pupniki have a lot of respect for the way nokia plays.  that is just increasing over time17:36
pupnikbut there is this thing called the US government.   ...   ....17:37
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alteregoThat's somewhat cruel ...17:39
E0xi find that having google talk and skype account always connected in 3g drain a lot of battery17:39
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E0xanybody have this kind of behavior too ?17:40
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pupnikE0x: it will reconnect more than having them off ... havent seen data17:42
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E0xpupnik: what ?17:42
achipaalterego: I have not decided which one causes more long term damage. What they do to the dog, or what the youtube captions of the dog do to our brains.17:42
pupnikare you travelling from cell to cell much E0x ?17:43
alteregoE0x: continual 3G usage, even if it's just checking facebook will drain battery, might be worth forcing 2G until you need the extra throughput.17:43
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E0xpupnik: oh you mean cell tower reconection17:43
alteregoI found my battery life is considerably lowered when I have a constant 3G connection and I have accounts online ..17:43
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TomaszDyeah, it's no more than a few hours before the battery is flat17:44
E0xalterego: i find a post ( looking for it again ) that is because google and skype protocol do a lot of chat17:44
TomaszDI sure hope PR1.2 improves the situation17:44
E0x( a lot of traffic )17:44
SpeedEvilTomaszD: Unlikely.17:44
SpeedEvilTomaszD: Oh. Well - there are a couple of reasons.17:45
SpeedEvilTomaszD: The bit about 3G using a lot of power when active - little can be done about it.17:45
SpeedEvilTomaszD: It just does - it's not the CPU that's active.17:45
alteregoE0x: like I said, you don't get so much of a hit on 2G, if you explicitly force 2G until you need to use the service properly. That will help substantially.17:45
TomaszDso the telepathy plugins cannot be optimized better?17:45
SpeedEvilTomaszD: Better control of external traffic may be possible17:45
alteregoTomaszD: no.17:45
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alteregoWell, I'll rephrase, yes, more than likely, but the improvements would be miniscule :)17:46
felipectale: what exactly do you want to do?17:46
SpeedEvilTomaszD: The problem with many plugins is that - for example - if you connect to two IRC servers - they will - randomly send 'ping' requests - at - say - 30 second intervals.17:46
E0xalterego: ok17:46
TomaszDso the flaw is only in hardware, as in a battery hungry 3G modem and/or weak battery for purpose17:46
alteregoTomaszD: it's a mixture of everything, but the battery use is the 3G modem yes.17:46
SpeedEvilTomaszD: This means that you get a ping every 15 seconds on average - which will keep the modem in 'high power' mode a large fraction of the time on 3G17:47
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TomaszDso every IM account needs to send some keep-alive packets and if we send them less often we'll get disconnected anyway, yes?17:47
alteregoThis is why I force mine to only use 2G, unless I'm actively using the connection. I might write a daemon that does an auto-switch when it detects a "high" load.17:47
SpeedEvilThe device idle - apart from a 30s ping over 3g - uses the same amount of power as it does active with the screen at mid brightness.17:48
SpeedEvilTomaszD: yes. For some protocols at least.17:48
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SpeedEvilTomaszD: For others, it may be possible to optimise. It also may be possible to use stuff like proxies for example.17:48
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SpeedEvil2G - for comparison purposes - uses one third of the power with a 30s ping17:49
E0xalterego: maybe  a switch when you open "someapps"17:49
E0xlike webbrowser17:49
TigerTaelJust give me a better battery. ;P17:49
TomaszDso in order for this to be a really always-on-data whole day device we need to wait for better 3G modems and better battery technology17:49
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SpeedEvilTomaszD: Proxies can do a lot.17:50
alteregoE0x: My issue is with apps that are always open ;) It wouldn't be to hard to monitor usage, and when it exceeds a point, for say a couple of seconds, it switches to 3G17:50
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alteregoUnfortunately, that switch may affect some connections whilst in process.17:50
TomaszDthe thing is, I like 3G call quality :)17:50
TomaszDI don't want a compromise17:50
alteregoTomaszD: then look at what I've been suggesting :P17:50
SpeedEvilTomaszD: For example - if in the above irc example - the proxy talks to the IRC servers, and only sends you a packet to keep your connection alive - say once every 5 min - or when something actually happens. And it might - for example - batch messages in channels that are not directed to you for 5 min.17:51
SpeedEvilTomaszD: When the screen is off17:51
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TomaszDSpeedEvil, I do understand the concept, but that won't work for skype, and you only need one rogue plugin to fuck up the party17:52
E0xSpeedEvil: that can be done at protocol level i think17:52
SpeedEvilE0x: Sure.17:52
E0xso a improved in the protocol can help too17:52
SpeedEvilE0x: If you write the protocol.17:52
SpeedEvilE0x: Good luck trying to get a powersaving batched IRC protocol rolled out worldwide to all servers.17:52
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E0xSpeedEvil: true but my idea was more17:53
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E0xfor IM protocols17:53
redeemani invented a general purpose IM/Chat protocol17:53
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E0xtelepathy one17:53
redeemandesigned to minimize traffic as much as possible17:53
redeemanand even invented a compression algorithm for it17:53
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luke-jrcompression = more CPU use = more power17:53
luke-jrpacket size isn't as relevant I think17:53
SpeedEvilluke-jr: Err - wrong17:53
redeemanluke-jr: you're mistaken, radio time is what costs17:53
alteregoUnfortunately, you'd probably need a driver for every IM protocol, in which case, why not just use one of those demultiplexing services that do all the IM chat and give you a unified interface...17:54
SpeedEvilredeeman: nope.17:54
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fysabeing awake is what costs.17:54
alteregoAlso, just point your browser to the IRC log if available and hit refresh when you wanna read it :D17:54
luke-jralterego: there's only one worthwhile IM protocol :)17:54
SpeedEvilredeeman: A ping - 64 bytes - over 3g - at 30s intervals - uses 136mA17:54
fysaso use znc17:54
SpeedEvilredeeman: A ping - 8000 bytes at 30s intervals - is not measurably different17:54
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E0xalterego: hmm that can be cool , a jabber account in some public server that have gateway17:54
E0xfor other protocolo17:55
redeemanSpeedEvil: which seems to prove my point?17:55
alteregoThis is why I use screen :D17:55
SpeedEvilredeeman: It's within 5% certainly.17:55
alteregoSSH is very bandwidth friendly when not in use.17:55
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fysaznc + bitlbee is where it's at17:55
SpeedEvilredeeman: Over 3G - 2G is a bit better at powersaving.17:55
redeemanSpeedEvil: the cpu can impossibly use more when awake than 3g17:55
SpeedEvilredeeman: ?17:55
SpeedEvilredeeman: The power usage above is with the screen and the CPU idle.17:56
alteregoThe 3G modem takes more power than the CPU?17:56
redeemanim not sure i trust your data regarding 3g battery usage17:56
Funnyface3g is better if you are to download a large file17:56
SpeedEvilredeeman: Fair enough - this was polling the bq27200 battery managment chip - averaging over a period of 5 minutes the 5s interval measurements.17:56
alteregoFunnyface: that's not the point :P17:56
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Funnyfacebut for just IM and some small web browsing..17:57
SpeedEvilredeeman: With the CPU idle, screen off.17:57
Funnyface2G is way better17:57
E0xjabber server with gateway for google talk and MSN example just need one "still alive ping" so in theory that can help minimize the impact in the 3g not ?17:57
alteregoWeb browsing for me is painful on 2G ...17:57
alteregoIM is fine.17:57
SpeedEvilE0x: It depends on the protocol details.17:57
SpeedEvilE0x: you actually need to look at tcpdumps17:57
E0xi mean you only will need the jabber server still alive ping17:57
E0xand not one for google and msn17:57
SpeedEvilE0x: If the jabber server is acting like a proxy - then yes17:58
E0xyes , the jabber public server act like that17:58
SpeedEvilredeeman: What's your argument with the above numbers?17:58
Corsacdidn't had a chance to trace IM trafic, but it's definitely not doable to have it enabled all day for me17:58
Corsacif I enable my jabber account in the morning, the bat will die before the evening :/17:59
E0xyou create a account , and define the other account ( if the jabber server have that gateway for that protocolo )17:59
Funnyfacefor an active IRC channel you can forget about it, because it keeps re enabling the radio all the time17:59
Funnyfacebut for MSN where you get a message every once in a while it's all good :P17:59
Funnyfaceput the phone next to a stereo so it catches the interference, then join an empty IRC channel, send one message and see how long the radio is active for just for that one message :P18:00
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Funnyfaceanyway, I installed some 2G/3G switcher app which can switch while the data connection is active so it doesn't drop your connection to everything18:01
FunnyfaceI keep it on 2G all the time unless I am going to do something that specifically needs 3G18:02
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alteregoFunnyface: that's exactly what I do, though I'm thinking of automating it to switch when the load is high for more than a few seconds.18:02
alteregoSo I don't have to use the applet anymore.18:02
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Funnyfaceyes, another feature I miss is that it should enable 3G for internet when I receive a phone call18:02
Funnyfacebecause my carrier doesn't support GSM calls and data over the same radio18:03
E0xFunnyface: what app do the switch without data drop ?18:03
FunnyfaceE0x: it was called 2g/3g/dual or something18:03
Funnyfacecan't remember, but if you sort by name it should be near the top18:03
E0xi have that and do the drop of the connection18:03
E0xwhen i do the switch18:03
Funnyfaceit doesn't, it dies for like 6-7 secs18:03
Funnyfacebut it doesn't disconnect you18:04
E0xi will try it18:04
Funnyfacewhen you switch, it doesn't drop you from IRC for example, things just get delayed by a few secs18:04
alteregoFunnyface: that's actually a problem with 2G, 2G only allows voice OR data, not simultaneous. Where as 3G allows both at the same time.18:04
E0xhmm that is a problem18:05
Funnyfacealterego: as far as I know, the N900's GSM radio should allow both18:05
E0xfor me18:05
SpeedEvilFunnyfaceThat depends on ISPs annoyingly18:05
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E0xi can't then allow have my IM connected18:05
E0xin 2g18:05
Funnyfaceyes, what speed said18:05
alteregoE0x: yes you can, it'll just stall whilst you're on the phone :P18:05
FunnyfaceE0x: if it's a short phone call, it will be restored afterwards18:05
E0xoh ok18:05
E0xcool then18:06
Funnyfaceit depends if the break is so long that your TCP connections time out or not18:06
E0xhmm what blackberry does for keep battery consumtion fine and alway have IM connected ?18:07
Surfatcp connection timeouts are insanely long by default.. it's highly unlikely yhat they timeout18:07
E0xor do something like in fly switch ?18:07
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Jiri-CAn some help me with nokia map loader. n900 win718:08
Surfatalking many minutes at tcp level18:08
timeless_mbpJiri-: is it supported?18:08
SpeedEvilSurfa: freenode forex timesout at 240s.18:08
Jiri-timeless_mbp it should be18:08
Jiri-timeless_mbp it allways says "waiting for phones"18:09
SurfaSpeedEvil, sounds typical18:09
SurfaJiri-, it isnt i think18:09
SpeedEvilIt used to be 10 min.18:09
* SpeedEvil preferred 10 min.18:09
SurfaSpeedEvil, most clients will timeout sooner18:10
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cehtehbah .. spamers send spam through ovi to the git ml18:10
timeless_mbpJiri-: why do you think "it should be"?18:11
Jiri-Surfa tämmösen löysin mut ei löytynyt
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Jiri-timeless_mbp surfa. is it anyother way to donwload offline maps to n900 then?18:12
Surfan900 maps is pretty crappy :(18:12
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Jiri-well do yuo know any better navigation system for n900`18:13
FunnyfaceI installed something called Sygic or whatever it was18:13
Surfasygic or so.. what was the name18:13
Funnyfaceturn by turn navigation18:13
Funnyfacebut the maps are lacking there as well18:14
Funnyface+ it's not free18:14
MiXu-You need to install the maps separately for it.18:14
MiXu-THey're in ovi store18:14
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Funnyfacewell, I got them from "another source"18:15
MiXu-I'm not sure what you mean by "lacking"18:15
Funnyfacewell, at my location, it doesn't contain small streets and things like that, only main roads and cities18:16
MiXu-ah, got ya18:16
SpeedEvilFunnyface: Openstreetmap!18:16
SpeedEvilFunnyface: Where are you again, I forgot.18:16
FunnyfaceSpeedEvil: OSM doesn't even have my street on the map :P18:16
SpeedEvilOh no.18:17
MiXu-That's odd18:17
SpeedEvilFunnyface: well - fix it! :) osm2go++18:17
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MiXu-All the Finnish streets and roads that I've needed so far have been there.18:17
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FunnyfaceMiXu-: perhaps you have a different map pack18:18
timeless_mbpi'd pay the 60CUR or whatever and get the other vendor's product18:18
MiXu-I've got the Nordic map pack18:18
timeless_mbpthey probably offer real support among other things18:18
Funnyfacelike, you'll have detailed maps of finland, but only main roads in the rest of europe18:18
Funnyfaceah ok18:18
Jiri-well i just want to have some kind of map whenn going abroad...18:18
MiXu-Bought it for 39,90e18:18
Funnyfacebut well like I said, I got them from.. ahem.. "another source" :P18:18
E0xhope google port the map app for meego a least18:18
Funnyfaceso I guess those maps aren't nordic18:18
povbotBug 10149: CSS for editing renders a messed up page on 1280*76818:18
Jiri-well poland18:19
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Jiri-i try that sygic from "another source" if it better than ovi maps18:19
lcukcan we remove the notice about pr1.2 and instead change it to a generic block on pirated copyright materials18:20
MiXu-imo Sygic is well worth paying for18:21
Jiri-i test it first and then decide after that18:22
fralslcuk: should probably highlight DocScrutinizer for that ;o18:22
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lcuki wasnt aware they had a test version Jiri- would you show me the link to their site where its offered?18:23
Funnyfaceas long as it isn't bogged down with DRM crap and locked to the device's ID etc it might be worth paying for yes18:23
MiXu-Funnyface: There's no DRM18:23
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Funnyfaceand if they allow you to download a binary copy18:23
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Jiri-lcuk i think the "test" version filetype is .torrent18:24
lcukJiri-, do you write your own software?18:25
Jiri-no i don't18:25
Jiri-i use to about 15 year ago but not anymore18:25
MiXu-There is a test version of Sygic18:26
MiXu-It's free for 7 days18:26
Jiri-ok i didn't know that18:26
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lcukMiXu-, from where?18:27
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MiXu-lcuk: ovi store18:28
Funnyfacehmm, which means you can use a tool to reset the trial every week? lol18:29
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MiXu-Doing that would be just teasing yourself.18:29
Funnyfacemy mate is running an "extended trial" of norton antivirus :P18:30
MiXu-Because that's probably not any more legal than just stealing it.18:30
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DocScrutinizerand this chan has a lot of members that earn their living by selling software. You won't gain a lot of friends by suggesting such practice18:32
hrw-udshi people18:33
lcukand since the gpl and most open source is supported by strong copyright laws, even people in the free software crowd will look down upon such practices18:34
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MiXu-I'm proud to say I haven't pirated anything on Maemo. :)18:34
hrw-udsMiXu-: thats because there is nothing to pirate here (maybe except sygic mobile)18:35
alteregoMiXu-: good job :)18:35
MiXu-and joikuspot (which I also bought)18:35
alteregoI don't really have a need for either.18:35
MacDrunkhey hello all18:36
alteregoI'm happy using the USB connector for my internet tethering needs.18:36
MacDrunkim new at this18:36
MacDrunkis hard to program on maemo18:36
MacDrunki like to take some programming courses18:36
MiXu-Learn Qt18:37
DocScrutinizerMacDrunk: there are better platforms to start learning programming, for sure18:37
MacDrunkyea like ????18:37
MacDrunkc++ or so18:37
hrw-udsMacDrunk: write code for desktop. use Qt for it18:37
MiXu-If you wanna code for maemo start from:
MiXu-Write a desktop app and then port it to Maemo.18:38
DocScrutinizerMacDrunk: see, the maemo development tools are not exactly easy to master even for experienced programmers18:39
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ruskiehmm is there a way to specify that a certain mime type should be opened with a diff tool? on the n900 that is naturally...18:40
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DocScrutinizerruskie: would think so18:40
MacDrunkwell first ill take a look at the qt tutorials18:41
MacDrunkthen ill take a basic proggaming course18:41
MacDrunkfirst of all18:41
MacDrunki havent a clue on how to program18:41
MacDrunkso i better start form zero18:42
MiXu-MacDrunk: Qt is a toolkit for C++. So if you can't find a Qt course, take a C++ course.18:42
DocScrutinizerMacDrunk: then by all means avoid looking at qt for now18:42
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DocScrutinizerMacDrunk: and I'd even recommend not to start with C++ either18:42
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alteregoPython+Qt/PySide :)18:43
alteregoNice gentle introduction into programming ...18:43
DocScrutinizeryou might want to start with a 'simple' programming language, like C18:43
alteregoanyhow, I gotta get a bus, later #maemo18:43
hrw-udsor BASIC?18:43
tripzerosimple... lols18:43
hrw-udsDocScrutinizer: C++ is simpler then C18:43
DocScrutinizernooooooo, no basic18:44
DocScrutinizerhrw-uds: LOL18:44
alteregohrw-uds: lies18:44
hrw-udsif you do not touch classes, inheritance but only write functions18:44
* alterego waves18:44
MiXu-My first programming language was Java, but now I wish I had learnt C++ first.18:44
tripzeroi think it's better to start with c++.  c++ can do c too18:44
hrw-udsC forces few things which C++ allows18:44
tripzeroand it can be simple enough18:45
hrw-udslike declaring variables anywhere which is C++ but not C18:45
DocScrutinizertbh I'd like to suggest assembler to everybody, for starting programming18:45
hrw-udsDocScrutinizer: pic16xxx had simple asm18:45
MiXu-DocScrutinizer: To make sure they give up? :D18:45
tripzeroasm forces you to learn how it all works under the hood.  but it sure is painful...18:45
DocScrutinizerno, to get the right approach to what programmin18:45
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DocScrutinizerg is all about18:46
DocScrutinizertripzero: ++18:46
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MiXu-Majority of programmers don't need to know about asm18:46
DocScrutinizerMiXu-: that's a common error18:47
DocScrutinizerleading to absurdities like drivers written in C++ and taking minutes to initialize18:48
tripzeroMajority of programmers also suck18:48
DocScrutinizertripzero: exactly18:48
MiXu-tripzero: True18:48
tripzeroi should know, i'm one of those who suck :P18:48
MiXu-Me too18:48
MiXu-But that's the point. It's ok if majority sucks, as long as there are the experts that can fix things when other's don't know how.18:49
* DocScrutinizer summons raster18:49
MiXu-In a perfect world things would be different of course18:49
E0xi am a perfect world i was a king :D18:50
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tripzeroso... is pr1.2 out yet?18:50
MiXu-But if you look at the most used programming languages: In addition to C and C++ (where it's good if you know asm) there's Java, PHP, Javascript, Python, SQL, Perl, C#... No need for asm afaik.18:51
DocScrutinizerasking for /kick?18:51
tripzeroi just got done battling my phone with the droid over the weekend when I visited my family18:51
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tripzeromy bro thought the front facing camera was cool.  too bad there's no software to use it yet :S18:51
DocScrutinizerMiXu-: ASM isn't about using it in SQL, it's about learning concepts18:52
tripzero...and writing drivers and other low level stuff that you want fast18:52
infoboti heard pr1.2 is not here yet. Stop asking. Read the topic Just stop asking. Read the topic. AND STOP ASKING.  If you ask then release moves by another week, so do not ask.18:53
MiXu-DocScrutinizer: I suppose you can learn those concepts (good programming practices, etc.) even if you don't know about asm?18:53
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MiXu-Of course it never hurts to know what's under the hood. I'm just saying that starting from asm is quite extreme.18:54
ruskiehmm fun... 13.7MB on /18:54
DocScrutinizerMiXu-: you *can* but alas in E.G. C++ nothing is forcing you to learn them, and you'll end with code that's abysmal ugly wrt machine optimization and a number of other aspects18:54
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DocScrutinizerMiXu-: starting from C++ is what I call extreme. Learning about object instantiation while no idea whatsoever about the difference between call-by-ref and call-by-value18:56
lcukMiXu-, raw binary is a bit extreme, assembler teaches you the fundemental building blocks that ALL code is written using no matter the language18:56
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DocScrutinizerlcuk: exactly! thanks mate18:57
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MacDrunkwell later all18:58
MacDrunkim off to look for a programming school18:59
MacDrunkthanks for the advice18:59
MiXu-I see what you guys are saying.18:59
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FunnyfaceI was always recommended to start directly on something like C or C++ instead of a crap language, because it'd be harder to learn C/C++ later after learning the crap one :p19:01
chem|sttripzero: mplayer tv:// -tv device=/dev/video119:01
DocScrutinizerMiXu-: by all means avoid things like garbage collectors, implicit typecasts and esp implicit var declarations in the language you start with19:01
MiXu-Funnyface: Exactly19:01
tripzerochem|st, ehhe, true19:01
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DocScrutinizerso what? You won't tell me assembler is a crap language?19:02
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DocScrutinizerbasic is a crap language19:02
Funnyfaceassembly is probably the least crappy one19:02
chem|sttripzero: many ways how to display front cam, even stream it...19:02
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Funnyfacewhile vb is the most crappy one :p19:02
tripzerochem|st, but not via skype/google voice/talk :(19:02
FunnyfaceMS visual basic19:03
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MiXu-In my books the efficiency of a language also counts. If I write a 1KLOC app in Qt and it'd take me 1000KLOC in asm, I'd say asm is a crap language. But those numbers aren't based on anything. Just an example.19:03
* tripzero writes a stupid "mirror" application19:04
chem|sttripzero: if you come from µ$ you may have a problem but being the kind of people using xserver to have multiple windows on one monitor... is exporting of /dev/video1 to somewhere else just a 30 char cmd-line19:04
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omarhey Docscrutinizer, lcuk I uninstalled the callnotifier and my hildon-status-menu's cpu usage is nearly non existent now. i'm guessing the app kept polling the device every few seconds to check for missed calls and stuff19:04
infobotchem|st meant: tripzero: if you come from µ$ you may have a problem but being the kind of people using xserver to have multiple shells on one monitor... is exporting of /dev/video1 to somewhere else just a 30 char cmd-line19:04
DocScrutinizerthere's three types of devels that are spoiled for life and never will get it right: the scriptkiddies, the vb idiots, and the prolog math nerds19:05
chem|stwell screen is capable of doing things like that aswell...19:06
lcukDocScrutinizer, i spent 10 years as a vb guy19:06
DocScrutinizerC++ is somewhere in between the later 219:06
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lcukbut i never stopped coding like it was c :)19:06
DocScrutinizerlcuk: as long as you touched vb after you finished your programming elementary school, you're not doomed ;-P19:07
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lcukDocScrutinizer, zx spectrum got me into identifying faults, amiga sas c got me into coding19:07
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DocScrutinizerlcuk: :-D19:08
lcuk68k is the nicest flavour of asm ive ever used19:08
lcuklooking at x86 asm made me weep19:08
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dnearyandre__, ping?19:10
andre__dneary, pong19:10
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dnearyandre__, I was wondering, which questions of mine were you thinking of when we talked about a documentation product for bugzilla?19:11
andre__dneary, hmm? you mean my email response to jarmo why I haven't created it yet?19:12
dnearyandre__, Yes, that one19:12
andre__ah. was about the workflow. if you think everything's clear now I can create it this week19:12
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dnearyThe workflow? Ah - you mean when someone goes "New bug" what the title on the next screen should say?19:24
dnearySorry - I need to refresh my memory on this19:24
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andre__dneary, nope, refered more to technical stuff (like copying content). but that seems to be solved now19:26
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crazyhorssIs there a function for camera to take photo in 5 seconds for say a time when  i just want to set the phone on a platform and take a photo including myself19:28
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crazyhorssit's a very simple feature19:29
dnearyandre__, The last thing I can find is "proposed reorganisation of ..."19:29
andre__dneary, I think that's the status currently, yepp19:30
dnearycrazyhorss, I don't know if a way to do it with the N900.19:30
dnearyandre__, Then if we could put that proposal into practice soon, that would be cool19:30
DocScrutinizercrazyhorss: thought same ~12h ago19:30
andre__dneary, ok19:30
dnearyI'd like to start using Bugzilla to track wiki gardening tasks19:30
dnearyRather than trying to maintain a wiki page as a TODO list19:31
dnearyWhich sucks badly19:31
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andre__crazyhorss, ,
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andre__dneary, is that the "wikify useful stuff posted in t.m.o" thread or more general?19:32
dnearycrazyhorss, so, as andre__ says, there's a way to script it, but not using the camera app19:32
dnearyslightly more general19:32
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DocScrutinizer51wow, camera pumps up cpu to 10019:35
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TomaszDhmm, bike gloves made in Pakistan19:37
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PiotrasX-Fade, Anything new wrt python2.3 issue and unrecognized option ?20:06
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DocScrutinizer51anybody herealready had a look into it? how's camera notfied about cam_launch button press?20:17
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DocScrutinizer51dbus? sysfs? direct readout of the SoC GPIO register?20:18
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SpeedEvilI looked on dbus a while back, and diddn't see anything20:18
r0gcashi anybody there? i would need help with scratchbox. what i want is to enter scratchbox specifying the target for compilation before entering.20:18
SpeedEvilI diddn't look at it very closely.20:18
DocScrutinizer51there's a msg on dbus20:18
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alteregoI'm pretty sure it's dbus20:19
DocScrutinizer51reedesktop/Hal/devices/platform_cam_focus; interface=org.freedesktop.Hal.Device; member=Condition      string "ButtonPressed"20:20
SpeedEvilWell - of course the lowest level is fpio20:20
MohammadAG[ 8253.836700] cam_focus (GPIO 68) is now active20:20
SpeedEvilwhat watches the GPUIO and pokes the camera though20:20
SpeedEvilcam_focus is 'half-pressed'20:20
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MohammadAG[ 8268.757873] cam_launch (GPIO 69) is now inactive20:21
SpeedEvilI suppose it's logical that the camera would half-wake on cam_focus - to get ready for the likely shortly upcoming press event20:21
DocScrutinizer51I 'just' want to fake a buttonpress event for cam_GUI ;)20:21
r0gcasi am sorry to interrupt, but i only need to know how to enter scratchbox specifying before the compilation target20:21
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: why?20:21
DocScrutinizer51SpeedEvil: I know20:21
SpeedEvilr0gcas: /me has no clue.20:22
DocScrutinizer51SpeedEvil: timer shoot20:22
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alteregoDocScrutinizer51: would it not be far easier to use gstreamer direcgtly?20:22
DocScrutinizer51should scrutinize camgui's dbus methods - maybe there's shoot?20:23
DocScrutinizer51alterego: for simply operating the cam chip yes20:24
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DocScrutinizer51but I want augmented camgui functionality20:24
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alteregoDocScrutinizer51: what functionality? everything can be done through gstreamer surely?20:25
DocScrutinizer51alterego: and I don't want to reinvent whole camera GUI20:25
SpeedEvilalterego: As I understand it, overlay is hard20:26
alteregooh you want a UI :)20:26
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alteregowell, you could write you own source filter and put it in the camera config file inplace of v4lsrc20:26
alteregoHrm, xevent feedback  wouldn't work though :)20:27
r0gcashi, i am sorry to interrupt, daes anybody happens when wants to change target in scratchbox a message like "first close other scratchbox session" appears? how do you resolve this?20:27
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alteregothink you can specify the sink too though. not sure that helps.20:28
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dmj726It's nice to see tmo filled with [Announce] threads again20:29
DocScrutinizer51alterego: nah, I want the original cam app. just make it shoot a photo20:30
alteregoAre you trying to augment the camera ui?20:30
DocScrutinizer51but keep all the setup, storing etc options20:31
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DocScrutinizer51alterego: exactly20:31
dmj726If you can augment the cam ui, let me know20:31
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alteregoMe too :D20:31
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DocScrutinizer51gdb goes a long way ;-P20:32
DocScrutinizer51as does hexedit20:32
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r0gcastopic: scratchbox. problem: how to change compilation target when a message like 'first close other scratchbox session' appears. can anyone help? please..20:34
DocScrutinizer51is that chinese letter?20:34
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PSWAre you looking to work from home to earn extra cash, just by answering calls?  Check this out.  It's real and eligible!  Feel free to ask any questions.
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andre__DocScrutinizer, can you do the same in #meego with the same guy? :-P20:37
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DocScrutinizersorry, no  +o on #meego20:37
MohammadAG* p :0 staff members GRR20:37
dmj726it's a smiley and a frowny20:37
MohammadAGjoin #freenode and ask that it gets klined20:37
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r0gcaslast try: anyone knows how to enter scratchbox specifying compilation target?20:39
MohammadAGsb-conf select FREMANTLE_X86/ARMEL20:40
DocScrutinizerandre__: MohammadAG: done20:40
r0gcasthanks, but sb-conf select FREMANTLE_X86/ARMEL, you do it when you already are in scratchbox, and sometime happens that when you try this a message appears saying you must close first your actual session in scratchbox, do you know how to resolve this?20:41
MohammadAGsb-menu and hit killall20:42
MohammadAGlast option20:42
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r0gcasyes, it is what i did and worked fine, but now it doesn't work. maybe it is a bug and have to restart20:43
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MohammadAGnever happened to me tbh20:43
MohammadAGkillall always solves it here20:44
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* SpeedEvil sighs at the grammar of spammers.20:44
SpeedEvil'Real and eligable' ?20:44
r0gcasok, thanks for your help MohammadAG, i don't know why this doesn't work now, but i suppose it will work in the future. goodbye and have a nice day20:45
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alteregoDocScrutinizer51: gst-inspect camerabin looks interesting...20:45
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DocScrutinizeralterego: heh :-D what's it showing?20:45
MohammadAGam I going somewhere?20:46
brikhe went somewhere20:46
alteregoDocScrutinizer: lots20:46
Terje_QSqlDatabase: QSQLITE driver not loaded20:46
Terje_QSqlDatabase: available drivers: 20:46
alteregoDocScrutinizer: you can tell it to take a picture.20:47
Terje_Not a good sign not to have any available SQL drivers.20:47
alteregoDocScrutinizer: still probably not what you need though.20:47
DocScrutinizernaw, prolly not20:47
DocScrutinizerinteresting stuff though20:47
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alteregoyeah, if you use it as a sole element, it just shows the camera, but you can use it to tke videos or images :D20:48
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alteregoMaybe I should rewrite camera-ui ;)20:48
SpeedEvilalterego: Plz!20:49
SpeedEvilAlso integrate 'flashlight' into it20:49
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DocScrutinizeralterego: feels like ALSA, somewhat20:50
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alteregoI'd make it far more modular. I might start working on it when I finish my current project. just need a few more days on this one :)20:50
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DocScrutinizeralterego: I'd happily help on reviewing the architecture20:51
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alteregoDocScrutinizer: it's  date ;)20:53
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