IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2010-03-26

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L0NELY-TR0LLoh! my eyes! i forget my eyes!00:06
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L0NELY-TR0LLhere it is :00:06
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L0NELY-TR0LLxe2000 Do you use Windows 2000?00:07
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L0NELY-TR0LLFlyser  Hello! What mean your nickname?00:07
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L0NELY-TR0LLElie Hello!00:08
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C-S-B-N900i am going to kill who ever implemented the n900 power management on wifi.00:11
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javispedronot your wifi ap manufacturer?00:11
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C-S-B-N900maybe them as well.00:15
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xe2000Hi i'm looking for a single conversation time count, on my n900. But i cant finde this. Can anybody help me?00:29
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xe2000similar of S6000:29
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crashanddiexe2000: conversation time count?00:30
SpeedEvilconversation time count?00:30
xe2000call log and sms protocol00:30
crashanddiexe2000: in case you didn't understand it from two people questioning the most fundamental part of your initial message: ELABORATE00:31
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* ptl waiting for xe2000 to elaborate, he's curious00:33
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xe2000i mean for example
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bleeterwell, I'm confused00:35
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ptlme too00:35
ptlI can't see the 'time' in this 'time counter'00:35
irygehey stskeeps, still up?00:35
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sp3000timeless_mbp: there's totally like people on it think there may be an app for that, though I'm not wure if it worked out that well the last time I tried00:35
sp3000the time is hidden in the next level00:35
xe2000hmm sorry i cant find a pic00:35
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sp3000er, s/timeless_mbp: there's totally like people on it/I/00:36
sp3000the keys are like right next to each other00:36
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tremnite all, sweet dreams00:38
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crashanddiexe2000: how about you try to properly explain what you're after00:45
DocScrutinizeryeah, the 'screenshot' is exactly meaningless to me00:46
lcuksome phones used ot have a total talk time screen00:46
crashanddieand then some00:46
lcuktime spent calling out00:46
lcuktime spent inbound calls00:46
lcukmy o2 ice had it00:46
lcukits an old feature00:46
lcukhes given shitty screenshot but i know the metric hes thinking of i think00:47
xe2000lcuk, yes that it00:48
DocScrutinizerlcuk: xe2000: phome -menu -timer ?00:48
xe2000a list of particular calls00:49
DocScrutinizererr what?00:49
SpeedEvilanyone had bt keyb working?00:50
lcukused to be really important when you had 60 minute calltime plans00:51
Lumpio-...I prefer to get a plan where I don't need to worry about minutes or whatnot if I ever need to make a call (which I rarely do)00:51
odin_!seen Venomrush00:51
DocScrutinizerlcuk: xe2000: phone ->menu ->timer  ?!?00:51
lcuk~seen odin_00:51
infobotodin_ is currently on #maemo (22h 40m 43s) #tomcat (22h 40m 43s). Has said a total of 1 messages. Is idling for 15s, last said: '!seen Venomrush'.00:51
odin_~seen Venomrush00:52
infobotvenomrush <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 15d 23h 50m 39s ago, saying: 'to select the other mode'.00:52
SpeedEvilI edited /etc/.../main.conf - and removed input from excluded plugons.00:52
lcukDocScrutinizer, i dont use it but prolly lol00:52
odin_who is this Venomrush, and is he doing something considered useful in the community my the majority of the community?
povbotBug 7919: Add to Contacts (from POP3/Inbox reading mail) offers to add myself00:52
xe2000DocScrutinizer, not the cout of all calls00:52
* lcuk must root around his menus more00:52
DocScrutinizerxe2000: ???00:53
SpeedEvilIt says paired, and pressing a key makes the data light on keyb flash - bu nothing... /dev/input/* does not seem to appear00:53
xe2000 a call log with a single cont of every call00:53
* lcuk never knew the timers screen existed :)00:53
DocScrutinizerhmm, yes. duration of particular calls missing in call history00:53
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xe2000DocScrutinizer, yes00:54
DocScrutinizerxe2000: though all your screenshots aren't to the point00:54
DocScrutinizeras they miss any call duration of particular calls as well00:55
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SpeedEvilAlso - bt icon goes blue when I press...00:55
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xe2000 ist fine, but i can't see: Call DATETIME, DURATION, AMOUNT00:57
SpeedEvilping the maker?00:57
* SpeedEvil tries the last resort of fools, and reboots.00:57
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DocScrutinizerxe2000: heh, I was about to find that one right ATM. you found it :-)00:58
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joker_891anyone knows why this goes directly to my formEdit01:02 = listbox = appuifw.Listbox(ls)01:02 = [(u"Editar",self.formEditar(resultat[listbox.current()]))]01:02
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DocScrutinizerxe2000: possibly the system phonelog doesn't keep this info :-/01:04
SpeedEvilit at least broadcasts dbus events which could be caught in realtime01:05
DocScrutinizermy idea01:05
DocScrutinizeren passant I found dbus-addressbook-bindings :-)01:06
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RobbieABHi, I have just got an N900, and am wondering what I need to do to get it working as a PAN access point. I've tried google with no success, has anyone done this or got any pointers?01:40
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ptlShapeshifter: I am just trying your alarmed application. Is there a wiki page with alarmed scripts and events, like there is for fcron?01:41
ptlRobbieAB: joikuspot and maemo hotspot. Search them on talk.maemo.org01:42
RobbieABjoikuspot is WiFi isn't it?01:43
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javispedroyeah, for PAN you're on your own mostly01:43
RobbieABThat's sort of what I expected.01:43
javispedrotry to do it same way you'd do it on a gnu/linux desktop, and if nothing works, complain01:44
RobbieABUnfortunately, gnome/blueman aren't there :D01:44
MohammadAGCreated a new project, aiming to get an app into at least extras01:44
RobbieABBut yeah, I can take that route. Work out what packages I need, and go down that route. :)01:45
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RobbieABOne of the joys of having started with Gentoo... Common sense doesn't get in the way. :)01:45
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MohammadAG :/01:46
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ptlMohammadAG: LOL01:48
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ptlRobbieAB: Sorry, robbie, I didn't know what you were talking about!01:51
RobbieABDocScrutinizer: Thanks, I found that, but it doesn't seem to be enough to get a PAN Access Point working, sadly. I suspect the N900 is missing other pieces of infrastructure.01:51
RobbieABptl: It's ok, that just means I need to learn how to ask better questions.01:52
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RobbieABIf JoikuSpot works, it may just be that I need to look at what they are using. :D01:52
RobbieABi.e. dhcp servers and the like.01:53
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RobbieABI can get a bnep device on the laptop, but it doesn't seem to be getting an IP address, which is why I suspect dhcp.01:54
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RobbieABAnyway, thank you all, you have been very helpful, and at least I know I'm not missing something obvious. :)01:55
redhaha MohammadAG :)01:56
RobbieABI will start pursuing this seriously this weekend :)01:56
ptljoikuspot does something very intriguing01:57
ptlmasquerade through userspace01:57
ptlI don't have any idea how it does it.01:57
RobbieABWell, ideally, I would want to do the routing in the kernel, as it would be faster.01:58
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RobbieABBut it's not critical, getting it working is more important :)01:58
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ptlit's just that the stock kernel does not have masquerading compiled in01:59
ptlso it can not be enabled by echoing into /proc01:59
RobbieABOh, yuck.01:59
ptl*the stock N900 kernel01:59
RobbieABWell, I'm not *quite* confident enough to try and break the kernel just yet.02:00
ptlqole and some friends found a way to do NAT in userspace too, but it seems it is really slow and unstable yet02:00
ptlthey use something called vde202:00
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ptlI didn't even quite understood what vde2 is.02:01
ptlmuch less how it works02:01
RobbieABWell, I will just have to play around, get something working, and than look at how to improve it.02:01
ptlgood luck!02:01
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RobbieABI have a couple of weeks off work...02:02
RobbieABAnd am motivated.02:02
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RobbieAB€470 for a toy, and if I can't get it working nicely as a really easy 3G modem for the laptop...02:02
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DocScrutinizermaybe it's a bit lame to ask, but can anybody please explain to me where to learn about the dbus methods offered by pkg02:17
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RobbieABRead the code? (Icky way, I know...)02:19
RobbieABAlso, is that project still alive? That page seems kinda out of date02:20
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DocScrutinizeror to be more up to date02:20
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DocScrutinizerI just can't believe the author of that package hasn't included any kind of 'api' documentation - but I fail to spot anything02:23
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TheNewAndyhi, I'm trying to compile pulseaudio (I'm wanting the ladspa plugin)02:24
TheNewAndyI did an apt-get build-dep pulseaudio and an apt-get source pulseaudio02:24
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TheNewAndybut when I go to autogen it, it tells me I need a more recent version of autoconf02:24
TheNewAndy(version 2.6.something).02:25
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TheNewAndyI tried installing it the other night, but the sb_autoconf_wrapper prevents it from being run02:26
TheNewAndyis there a clean way to get this to work?02:26
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javispedroI wouldn't start a maemo journey by rebuilding pulseaudio..02:26
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javispedroTheNewAndy: also, install package pulseaudio-module-extra02:28
javispedroTheAppleMan: it containts ladspa-sink at least02:28
TheNewAndyoh awesome, that is exactly what I wanted :)02:28
eutis there a way i can download an app on my desktop and install it on my tablet via usb?02:28
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Corsachmhm, Jennifer Granick at cansecwest is talking about TI calculators private keys distribution, legal issues and stuff02:48
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Tobarjathis is twice today that my n810 has gotten overwhelmed and rebooted itself. is that normal?03:47
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DocScrutinizerTobarja: mine reboots at random03:47
TobarjaDocScrutinizer thanks... you've vindicated my wife... :-/03:48
DocScrutinizersometimes 5 times a day, sometines none in 50 days03:48
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DocScrutinizeri did what? sorry got no webster at hand, and my English is poor, but I'm quite sure I did nothing to your wife03:49
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Tobarjaha... she was playing with it and it freaked out, stopped responding. when you said yours reboots at random you cleared her of wrongdoing03:52
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DocScrutinizerdunno. I got a wacky charger receptacle, and sometimes I got the idea this is related somehow. But then again I wasn't able to trigger reboots by crazy charger plug action. Anyway this wasn't like that from the beginning, rather it started maybe a year ago, maybe 18 months03:57
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Ken-YoungWithin scratchbox, gdb always segfaults for me, if I pass it a core file to analyze.   Does anyone know what might be causing that?04:04
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GAN900DocScrutinizer, proved her right. Or not wrong.04:05
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ponyofde1thhi, im trying to wipe my nokia n900 before i send it back for an RMA do i flash first with "RX-51_2009SE_3.2010.02-8.002_PR_COMBINED_002_ARM.bin" then with "RX-51_2009SE_1.2009.41-1.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin" ?04:15
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DocScrutinizersounds about right04:17
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leandroalI'm trying to make a svn up and the svn is return the following: SSL handshake failed: Connection reset by peer ( What is going on?04:26
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dotblankIs there a module-ladspa-sink built for PA on the n90005:06
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dotblankit shows the .so file in scratch box05:10
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DocScrutinizer[2010-03-26 01:28:06] <javispedro> TheNewAndy: also, install package pulseaudio-module-extra05:56
DocScrutinizer[2010-03-26 01:28:15] <javispedro> TheAppleMan: it containts ladspa-sink at least05:56
TheNewAndy(poor The AppleMan getting spammed by tab completion :))05:57
* DocScrutinizer is wondering what strange TV-show might have created interest in ladspa05:57
TheNewAndyjavispedro and I are now chatting in #maemo :)05:57
TheNewAndyI'm interested because I'm trying to do a demo of some audio processing at work, and ladspa+pulse is the biggest bang for buck05:58
DocScrutinizererr, what?05:58
DocScrutinizerI wasn't even aware there's a ladspa plugin for friggin PA. For ALSA there's been one since ages06:00
TheNewAndyit is a bit limited (single channel only, can't adjust parameters on the fly)06:00
TheNewAndybut it is great for my purposes (hacking up a demo on multiple platforms really quickly)06:01
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LiraNunawhen my N900 receives a call and plays a custom ringtone, there is a pause when it's finished07:11
LiraNunahow can I make it loop without the pause?07:11
crashanddiePray Baahl and slit the troath of a 12 year old elf virgin07:13
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ponyofde1thhi, how do i mount the hdsd card in linux seems when i enter usb storage mode i only see the internal eMMC07:24
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MiXu-afaik it should mount automatically unless something in the phone is using the mmc all the time07:28
MiXu-in which case it will complain "MMC is in use" or something like that when you plug it in07:29
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acidjazzjust launched my 2nd game
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crashanddie_the next person who promotes his facebook app in here gets banned for life07:46
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Stskeepswork mornings are not the time for my laptop to start running a forced fsck.08:10
Stskeepswhen will linux have ZFS.08:10
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crashanddie_Stskeeps: the same year as the year of the Linux desktop!08:12
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* simula is happy with linux in his pocket08:13
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Stskeepssimula: pocket is fine, it doesn't do forced fscks :P08:18
simuladid you pull the power plug stskeeps?  what forced fsck?08:19
Stskeepssimula: 41 times without a check08:20
Stskeepsyes, i know i can adjust that08:21
Stskeepsbut no, i always shut down nicely08:21
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* RST38h watches the "Screen Colours" thread on tmo. Some people really can't take no for an answer...08:45
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JaffaNooooo... don't look08:48
RST38hThe stupidity level there rises to previously unknown heights08:48
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* Jaffa hasn't had the good fortune to read that thread.08:49
ColdFyrei think i've already seen the stupidest people alive, can't be that bad..08:50
RST38hJaffa: Let us just say they are accusing javispedro of lying "because nokia usa site claims n900 is 16m colors"08:50
JaffaOh dear.08:50
RST38hAnd the nokia usa site obviously cannot be wrong :)08:50
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JaffaMarketing's *always* 100% accurate08:51
ColdFyreahh share the link...08:51
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ColdFyreScreen Colours / Color Depth: 16 million or 65K? <--- that one?08:52
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ColdFyreafter seeing page 1, that must be it08:53
Rabidus 17M;08:54
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RST38hJaffa: So is Wikipedia, although evil javispedro has EDITED it after the fact! Can you believe?08:54
RST38hThe truth was out there and he killed it! Pure horror.08:55
RST38h==> work08:55
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JaffaOh dear.08:57
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StskeepsRST38h: i'm actually not sure if it's a 24bit screen or not09:04
Stskeepsi mean, framebuffer is 16, yes, but there can be reasons for that09:04
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ColdFyrei am positive it's 24 bit09:04
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AdmiralSausagehi! if I flash a fiasco image but not the mmc, what happens to all my apps in /opt?09:41
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ruskie <-- hmm09:46
ruskieAdmiralSausage, those are in /opt which is a symlink to /home which is on the mmc iirc09:46
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AdmiralSausageso from what I understand, the apps will remain on the mmc but won't appear to be installed because there is no symlink to them from /usr/share, and they aren't in the apt db. correct?09:48
ruskieiirc yes09:48
AdmiralSausagedoes that cause probs when you want to reinstall them?09:49
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yigalwhy would that cause problems?09:49
yigalif they are binaries just upgrade, and use the new binary?09:50
AdmiralSausage yigal: because the files will already be there when apt tries to install them?09:50
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yigalif they aren't in the apt db then what's to worry apt about?09:51
yigalif the old stuff works and then the new stuff also works then, no harm no foul?09:52
yigaljust applying basic logic, but I've probably missed something very important09:53
AdmiralSausageso if apt is installing something for the first time, and there are already files in the place it wants to write them, it overwrites them? that is fine but not obvious to me09:53
yigalyes, that is exactly what apt does09:55
yigalas far as I understand, which isn't very much09:55
AdmiralSausageexcellent, that's all the assurance I needed. off to flash then - thanks a lot09:57
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yigalwow that's not very much assurance, but hey glad I could be there for the dude09:58
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yigalgnu chess is so hard I can barely beat its easy game :(10:01
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Shapeshifterhas someone found out how to make VGBA fullscreen?10:02
Stskeepsyigal: the on device one?10:02
yigalah socializing by myself again10:02
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* Stskeeps has heard many stories about that chess game10:02
Shapeshifterptl: there's no wiki page but the first post in the forum thread contains some info, and for the CLI, -h has some info and examples10:04
yigalStskeeps: no just Ubuntu, I use eboard on my n800 to play internet chess, just spraying words10:05
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Unksihmm, my n900 does not indicate if it has low power... is there a way to make it indicate it?10:07
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yigalman I'm almost to the point where I'm willing to get the n900 despite it being "fat", smaller screen, and not as punchy of a cpu as I would want, the fact that it can run the Gimp, LaTeX, GCC, and that it has a resistive screen are almost enough, but not quite for me to make the plunge10:10
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d14ah, wrong window x)10:13
yigalthe fact that some next gen. smart phones will undoubtedly have e-ink/Pixel Qi like screens allowing for about a full day, 24hours, of video usage before recharge, and of course absolutely perfect to read outside, that is the only thing holding me back10:13
d14morning o/10:13
corecode_do we have some sort of application ranking?  like vim has for the scripts?10:13
yigalcorecode_: nice analogy10:14
corecode_you know, the script karma10:14
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yigaljust the fact that you through in vim makes you A+ ok with me10:15
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corecode_that would help me find certain things i a) didn't search for or b) searched for but didn't find10:15
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yigalwhat about just ?10:16
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yigalit at least gives what is being downloaded, but you're right more relavent statistics would be good10:17
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yigalI will never forget how Android has wronged me10:18
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yigaloh ya gnu chess I destroyed you in an easy match10:20
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yigal this is so reasonable10:24
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yigalI hope I haven't been \ignored by everyone my apologies for being so garrulous10:28
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corecode_yigal: the downloads doesn't include the maemo apt repos, does it?10:30
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yigalcorecode_: dude, I'm prehistoric with my n800, as far as I remember it used to?10:32
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corecode_but downloads != magical ratings10:36
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yigalcorecode_: true dat10:37
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TriztCould someone tell me a bit about the gps, as it don't seem to work with in maep and ovi maps it seems to always only be calibrating is a-gps is disabled, when a-gps is enabled the location is off with ~2km and showing that I'm out in the sea and the long/lat don't change when moving. Running HealthCare I get long/lat that change by moving.10:39
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LynoureWhat's your favourite password manager for N900?10:42
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crashanddiemy head10:43
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Lynourecrashanddie: how did you get it running in the device? =)10:44
crashanddiecompiles natively10:45
LynoureBut the upload...10:45
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LynoureMy memory is too poor for ~100 different passwords that do not follow the same pattern, so encrypted manager would be nice. And there are many, I just have trouble choosing before I input a slew of data10:46
corecode_i just copied my passwords from firefox10:46
Lynourecorecode_: to what?10:47
corecode_to microb10:47
corecode_from desktop to n90010:47
LynoureNot just browser passwords.10:47
corecode_ah there are other passwords? :)10:47
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Lynourecorecode_: for recovering sysadmins, yes, long and random ones.10:49
corecode_i don't use passwords on ssh anymore10:49
corecode_and i don't use passwords for physical login10:49
corecode_in other words, i'm trying to get rid of passwords10:50
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KhertanHi !10:50
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Stskeepslo Khertan10:50
Stskeepshow's it going?10:51
Khertanlo Stskeeps10:51
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Khertanbit tired ... too much things to do work10:51
Khertanbit tired ... too much things to do at work10:51
Lynourecorecode_: I'd do too, if there was a way that suited my needs. But not yet.10:51
KhertanStskeeps: and you ?10:51
StskeepsKhertan: same.. got a deadline coming up, testing, hacking, etc10:51
corecode_mm deadlines10:52
Khertanthe deadline is pass from one month here ... and i m just starting the development10:52
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Khertan <- can you see this picture ? (i'm not sure that it s available for everyone)10:54
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jjoKhertan: I can10:55
JaffaMorning, all10:55
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Khertanjjo: thx10:55
Khertanmorning jaffa10:55
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* timeless makes flight to ARN11:14
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* noobmonk3y waves11:41
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* ShadowJK finda a video that crashes the dsp11:46
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ptlbeen following the porn thread on, heh?11:50
gouverneurLynoure: there is only one passwordsafe ui isnt it?11:50
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ShadowJKI wonder how to report such crashes :-)11:51
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ShadowJKit consistently crashes at about 10 minutes in11:51
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X-FadeShadowJK: Is the video freely available on the web?11:53
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ShadowJKsortof, youtube11:53
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X-FadeShadowJK: Are you playing it through flash then?11:53
derfI mean, worse comes to worst, you could use
X-FadeShadowJK: Then the one on youtube is not the file you are playing? :)11:54
ShadowJKgpodder can subscribe to youtube channels and download the 480p h264 baseline version11:54
derfThat ought to get some attention, at least.11:54
X-FadeWell, if you can describe what needs to be done to reproduce the bug every time.11:54
X-FadeThen it would be appreciated, I'm sure.11:55
ShadowJKBut whether youtube-dl and similar get the same file I dunno..11:55
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X-FadeShadowJK: Doesn't matter. If you say it can be downloaded through gpodder an describe all steps, it should be fine.11:55
ShadowJKWell gpodder only sees new files that's in the RSS11:56
ShadowJKso it's too late :)11:56
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ShadowJKI could try MPlayer's sample archive on it I guess :)11:57
ShadowJKand the fuzzer11:58
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RST38hmoo wazd12:16
wazdRST38h: heya :)12:17
wazdRST38h: thank god I'm alive :D12:17
* noobmonk3y w00t's12:17
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RST38hwazd: partied a littl ebit too much yesterday? =)12:18
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wazdRST38h: well, actually no, but was tired like hell :)12:18
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wazdRST38h: crossed moscow like 3 times :)12:18
RST38h2nd act today12:18
RST38hwazd: On foot? =)12:18
wazdRST38h: :D12:18
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wazdRST38h: I'm gonna join you today, but a bit later12:20
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wazdRST38h: Vlad is leaving @ 7PM12:20
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jatthi, could someone explain me briefly what is kinetic scrolling? I bought a nokia n900 and I'm having a hard time scrolling the desktop or in the browser.12:28
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nidOkinetic scrolling = scroll down something really fast then let go and it keeps scrolling for a while12:28
jattit works, but it seems I don't have enough practice12:28
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jattI see12:28
nidOnon kinetic scrolling = it just stops as soon as you let go12:28
jattcould be that my n900 is using no kinetic scrolling? Yesterday I downloaded a maemo upgrade (maemo 5) from February this year I think.12:29
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ptlsomeone just hacked Sygic N900 to use maps from the symbian versions12:30
jattbut before the upgrade it was the same12:30
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noobmonk3yi find kinectic for me works better with the stylus as i have fat thumbs :D12:32
ptlI find everything for me works better with the stylus because my screen gets dirty with fingers...!12:37
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Lynouregouverneur: there is at least Keeppass, pysafe, pyring, password safe12:37
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SpeedEvilI ordered a pack of 10 screen protectors.12:38
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SpeedEvil'blocks' does _bad_ things to your protector.12:38
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ptlYes, I use a screen protector from PDAir, but it costs a lot of money, US$ 1212:38
ptl(for a screen protector)12:39
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ptlnevertheless it's very good and clear12:39
SpeedEvil$3 for 1012:39
SpeedEvilinc free ship12:39
ptlnot the same quality, I suppose12:39
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noobmonk3yi had one and hated it12:40
noobmonk3yripped it off after a week12:40
SpeedEvilmaybe not. I question if the $12 one would not scratch with sand + pointer tho12:40
nidOi dont have a protector on mine12:40
ptlwhen I take it off the N900, it's practically invisible12:40
noobmonk3ywas too rubbery and felt odd when i used it12:40
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noobmonk3ynidO: me neither now......12:40
nidOim happy having a decent looking + feeling screen, and being careful12:41
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jattsooner or later it will scratch :(12:41
ptlSpeedEvil: I don't know, I had some screen protectors on my previous phone and this one is clearly different. Besides being very very very very very very very clear, it adheres without any bubbles to the N900 surface and feels really good to the touch, so I don't fear using my fingers on it anymore12:42
jattlike everything... glasses, clocks, etc.12:42
jattdo you have a link to those screen protectors?12:42
gouverneurLynoure: ok now i get what you mean12:42
nidOmore people need to start using gorilla glass12:42
ptlI'd buy another one anyday12:42
SpeedEvilnigella for expample, I have over 200 scratches where the blocks come.12:42
nidObut tbh if i can get through a year without too badly damaging the screen, ill just replace it12:42
gouverneurnidO: I managed to scratch it with latex12:42
ptljatt: is where I bought my protector, an expensive one... screen clear protector or something like that is its name12:42
Lynouregouverneur: is Password Safe the one you like?12:43
gouverneurnidO: you can barely see the scratch, in normal conditions not visible12:43
ptljatt: but on ebay you buy then a dime a dozen12:43
nidOgouverneur whats that, the n900's screen?12:43
gouverneurLynoure: I use password safe as i just wanted a tool to crypt passwords and have a good overview if needed12:44
gouverneurnidO: yep12:44
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lcuktracy is singing loudly with her ipod in, is there a way i can remotely disable it?12:44
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ptlwhat about pysafe and keepassx?12:44
nidOyeah microscratches like that wont really bother me, i've gotten through 2 months so far without any scratches of any kind whatsoever so even a few tiny almost impossible to see ones wont bother me12:44
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nidOat this rate I should have no problem getting through a year with the screen still in reasonably decent condition, then id rather just replace it with a new one than suffer a screen protector the whole time12:45
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timelesshey tybollt12:46
* SpeedEvil makes a pointer.12:46
timelessthe plane arrived  @arn 10mins before departing hel12:46
ptlsuffer a screen protector?12:46
timelessbut couldn't reach the gate for 10mins12:46
SpeedEvilfrom hedgeprunings.12:47
ptlmine goes really well12:47
timelessand then the idiotic arlanda express rejected my visa card12:47
timelessthe bank machine offers to speak english but doesn't say which button is "enter" or "backspace"12:47
timelessand the ticket machine rejected my third 100 sek bill12:48
timelessso i had to break it at the currency exchange12:48
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timelessbut now i'm waiting for the express to depart :)12:48
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jattwill meego run on my n900? or it won't be supported?12:49
MiXu-jatt: no one knows12:49
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* timeless is trying to remember how to use to find user profiles12:49
jattI see12:49
timelessjatt: totally unannounced12:49
fgs_lcuk: a gunshot should do the trick12:49
timelessbut each time someone asks, i'm killing a fly12:49
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lcukfgs_, :(12:50
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gouverneurjatt: we do not know what meego looks like yet12:54
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ptlwhen will we have ?12:54
Anss|jatt, it should work.12:55
timelesswhen someone wants more headaches12:55
gouverneurptl: afaik its still on testing and as long as the design topics arent closed it wont go public I guess12:55
timelessisn't one headache enought?12:55
infobottimeless meant: isn't one headache enough?12:55
gouverneurtimeless: true12:55
timelesstechnically your question belongs in #meego ;)12:56
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gouverneuram I looking at the wrong page or didn't they fix the auto-connect issues with EAP?12:58
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* timeless drops gprs to save money. later all12:59
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ccookeMorning, all13:02
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karlososhey guys13:08
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SpeedEvilodd. anyone else seen display corruption?13:09
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SpeedEvilthe icons on the app launcher some are broken13:10
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ptldisplay corruption? broken icons? Under what circumstantes?13:11
infobotptl meant: display corruption? broken icons? Under what circumstances?13:11
SpeedEvilscreenshots too13:11
SpeedEviljust normal use13:12
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ptlnot in mine13:13
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ptlthe icons in the app launcher are just not updated when you install an application, it's a known bug, fixed in PR1.213:13
ptlif you reboot they appear13:13
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SpeedEvillike that13:13
ptlno... never seen anything like that on mine13:14
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Lynouregouverneur: thanks. I think I'll give password safe a proper try then first. :) As so far yours is the only recommendation I've gotten.13:20
ptlwhat about pysafe?13:21
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Khertanpysafe ?13:24
Khertanwhat is it ?13:24
KhertanA program to keep your passwords and personal info safe and always available in your hands.13:24
Khertanfound :)13:24
ptlA brazilian developer who also runs an excellent blog about N900 did it. He's currently converting it to qt.13:25
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DassuIs there a way to sync qtirreco with HTPC's lircd.conf file?13:28
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Dassuwell, I guess I should start looking for lirc remote archives for matches with qtirreco archive13:33
Dassutakes forever but what can you do13:33
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atitianyone doing google soc?13:36
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gouverneurLynoure: mmh, it has folders what is a ++ for me, as I like to separate work,banking,websites and so on13:39
gouverneurhrw: bit late for that dont you think?13:39
infoboti heard ugt is Universal Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant.
hrwgouverneur: you never know which timezone I am in..13:40
Lynouregouverneur: yes, could not do without some categories13:40
nidOwoah, whats happened to the testing repo this morningh13:40
gouverneurhrw: I know!13:40
Lynouremornings are quite subjective things :)13:40
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X-FadenidO: ?13:40
hrwgouverneur: I wonder how13:40
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gouverneurhrw: I say morning after I wake up that might be in the afternoon...13:40
nidOX-Fade: well it suddenly seems to be like twice the size it was 6 hours ago, and theres several versions of practically every piece of software in it13:41
X-FadenidO: Ah, oops :)13:41
X-FadenidO: Need to filter the cleaned ones out..13:41
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gouverneurhrw: I know that I never know as long as I do not ask13:41
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X-FadenidO: Should be better now ;)13:44
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X-FadenidO: Didn't filter on the 'old version removed by repository cleaning' status :)13:45
nidOah, much ;)13:45
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X-FadenidO: Thanks for mentioning it.13:47
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nidOon the subject of the repos, what would it realistically take to get a new category added for themes to save them being splattered all over the place..?13:48
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X-FadenidO: The problem is that the AM would need to be changed for that.13:48
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nidOyeah I figured as much :<13:49
X-FadenidO: And that implies adding icon, translation etc etc.13:49
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X-FadeI really wish we thought of that when setting the categories :)13:49
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Ken-YoungDuring the night, an app I have in Extras had a huge increase in downloads over the average it had settled down to over the last few weeks.   Could that mean that some region got the pr1.2 update, and those folks are reloading apps?13:57
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Stskeepsmaybe testers13:58
haltdefordered n900~13:58
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Ken-YoungStskeeps, 1500 downloads in less than 6 hours...13:58
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Stskeepshaltdef: welcome aboard13:58
ptlI think that it someone got the PR1.2 update we'd see him immediately bragging about it on tmo13:58
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X-FadeKen-Young: Did it get mentioned somewhere?13:59
ptlinfobot should have an entry for tmo13:59
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Ken-YoungX-Fade, I'll have too google, and check for that.13:59
nidOwhats the app?13:59
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Ken-YoungnidO, orrery14:00
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X-FadeKen-Young: Did you push a new version?14:00
Ken-YoungX-Fade, Yes, but it is still languishing in QA.   Only six votes so far.14:01
X-FadeYeah, but you got 713 downloads from extras devel yesterday for instance.14:01
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X-FadeKen-Young: For the 3.1.3-1 version14:02
gouverneurKen-Young: for me it was an upgrade shown lately!14:02
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Ken-YoungX-Fade, Oh - I dodn't know that was included in the count!   Thanks X-Fade.   Mystery solved.14:02
X-FadeKen-Young: Yeah it is all repos combined.14:02
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gouverneurah extras not testing...14:02
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Ken-Younggouverneur, Thanks for th info.   I didn't know it would show until it got out of QA.14:03
ptlIf it was night here I'd (re)test orrery immediately14:03
ptlso I could cast my vote14:03
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ptlI remember having some issues with it14:03
Ken-Youngptl, Thanks!14:03
gouverneurKen-Young: have you thought of putting astrologie stuff in it yet?14:03
ptlthis would turn off most skeptics14:03
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Ken-Youngptl, What issues?   Please enter a bugzilla bug if you run across problems, or want new features.14:04
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Ken-Younggouverneur, Uhhhhh, nope!14:04
ptlKen-Young: I do not really remember, I got somewhat lost in its interface. I'll test again anytime, and I'll start from its tutorial. Thanks very much for this very interesting application!14:05
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Ken-Youngptl The new version is more "hildonized" and should be easier to navigate.14:05
gouverneurread it somewhere and was some kind of glad it isnt in the upgrade14:05
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Ken-Younggouverneur, Version 4.0 will make random predictions about your future.14:06
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Ken-Youngand flattering remarks about your personality.14:07
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gouverneurKen-Young: a POV renderengine would be nice14:08
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gouverneurso you can get for example exact coords for a crate on the moon14:08
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gouverneurbut thats way of my league of coding... still trying to get weather simulation on my selfmade globe14:09
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Ken-Younggouverneur, That's a good idea.   I'm planning on adding a page for each planet, and I could add that there, for thouse planets which have a visible surface.14:10
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gouverneurKen-Young: yeah thas what I mean14:11
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ptlAre you an astronomer, Ken-Young?14:11
ptljust curious14:12
gouverneurwhat was the map globe thing called? maybe it has a piece you want to use14:12
Ken-Youngptl Yup.14:13
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gouverneurKen-Young: marble it was14:13
gouverneurthey have mars moon and so on available14:14
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jwittemaanyone here knows how to create a changelog in packageview on ?14:14
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X-Fadejwittema: debian/changelog14:14
Ken-Younggouverneur, One can also show things like the locations of the Mars rovers, moon landers, etc.14:14
jwittemait contains changes, but the don't show up14:14
X-Fadejwittema: It gets parsed from the debian/changelog in your package.14:14
X-Fadejwittema: Which package is yours?14:15
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MiXu-Have you checked how much BatteryGraph consumes battery?14:17
jwittemathe background daemon uses less than 4 seconds cpu time per day14:18
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MiXu-ok, not much then I guess :)14:18
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X-Fadejwittema: Ah, non-free.14:19
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X-Fadejwittema: Not supported, sorry.14:19
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jwittemaah, ok. too bad14:19
X-Fadejwittema: It gets parsed in the builder, from the source package.14:19
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jwittemaand there's no way I manualy can edit this information?14:20
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X-FadeNo, not atm.14:21
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ptland how much memory does it take? (the background daemon)14:21
ptlbatterygraph is not open source?14:21 seems to be having problems this morning, no?14:22
jwittemadon't know how much memory the daemon uses...14:22
jwittemabatterygraph is not open source (but freeware)14:22
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ptlI saw that14:24
ptlthat's weird, because he asks for donations. But why would I donate to a closed-source program?14:25
RurouniJonesBecause if you use it you should ebenefit from improvements to it14:25
jwittematoo show your gratitude and inspire me to improve the program14:26
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Stskeepsjwittema: you speak directly with BME?14:27
jwittemaI subscribe to dbus events14:27
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* ShadowJK wants to speak directly with bq2720014:28
Stskeepsever saw the bme protocol info i reversee engineered?14:28
jwittemahtop shows 1.3% memory uses for the background daemon btw14:28
jwittemastskeeps: no, don't think so14:28
ShadowJKStskeeps, has anyone actually tested if maemo5 bme speaks same protocol?14:28
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ptljwittema: are you the developer? I think you should make it clear that your program is not open source with a license section on your homepage. I've already seem demonstrations of your program, it seem to be of excellent quality, congratulations for that, but I don't see the point in closing the source specially on this case.14:29
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ptljwittema: and even then, by not allowing commercial usage you are forbidding it to be displayed e.g on Nokia showcases, where it would impress the prospective clients...14:30
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ptljwittema: your insights on battery usage could greatly be spreaded to other users/developers if the source were open, and interesting new features could even be added.14:30
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ptlStskeeps: do you have a page for your bme findings?14:31
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* ptl ignored14:40
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wazdwell, FRUCT conference was awesome :)14:45
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thresha lot of people there?14:46
wazdbut it was hard to keep myself not to say "yeeeeeeeaaaaaaah" when Nokia Marketing guy was telling how nokia cares bout developers and stuff14:46
wazdthresh: yeah14:46
juhovhyou should've put on sunglasses and say a punchline before that though14:47
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juhovhthen it would've been C.S.I. Miami14:47
threshwazd: seriously, was anything interesting other than ab's talk?14:48
wazdthresh: lot's of russian community guys there :)14:49
wazdthresh: btw14:49
ptlany practical news for N900 users?14:49
threshwazd: yes i've read his blog post14:50
threshi will probably be there too14:50
wazdthresh: cool :)14:50
threshneed to check if i has his mobile number thouhg14:51
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ptlAm I being read? That's now 3 things I said that got unanswered. Am I being a jerk or is it that noone can read me?14:54
nidOwho said that?14:54
corecode_no you're blue like everybody else14:55
corecode_ptl: i guess nobody knows what to tell you14:56
ptloh, ok.14:56
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ptlBut what means to be blue like everybody else? Is it the color of active nicknames in your IRC client?14:56
corecode_you hash to blue14:57
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: have you tried to speak to bq27200 directly?14:58
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ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, nope14:58
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ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, there's a driver in linux, but I got stuck trying to figure out what/where/how tells the driver that the device exists14:59
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ptlStskeeps: I am googling but can't find your reverse-engineering efforts on it, can you lead me to the page?14:59
ShadowJKAlso, bme is speaking some i2c directly from userspace, but I don't know what device it's speaking with15:00
DocScrutinizerorrery is cool15:00
ptlStskeeps: found your page on but there's no mention of the reverse-engineering of bme15:00
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: unrelated mumbling15:01
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ptlThe orrery program displays the night (and day!)  sky on N900 devices.   It displays constellations, and other astronomical information such as moon phase calendars15:01
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ShadowJKI should strace bme from boot :)15:01
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: just done with processing backscroll15:01
DocScrutinizers/bme/mce ;-)15:02
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ShadowJKptl: maybe15:02
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ShadowJKbut that even says it's not for n90015:02
* ShadowJK is in the middle of first charge of mugen's 2400mAh battery15:03
ptlyou did buy that monster?15:04
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ptlhow does it feel? is it practical to take the phone on the pocket?15:05
ptlNow, would SmartReflex™ work on the mügen power battery?15:05
Lumpio-BME? >_>15:05
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ShadowJKbattery management entity, or something like that15:06
SpeedEvilsmartreflex is a cpu thing15:06
ShadowJKptl: it feels practical for my use15:06
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ptlI'd but it if hadn't already bought a protective case for the N900...15:07
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ptlShadowJK: thanks, but maybe it's not this page, because it doesn't have any change by Stskeeps on the history...15:08
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corecode_SpeedEvil: how's the usb host situation?15:11
corecode_SpeedEvil: you found some loophole in the errata or specs?15:11
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DocScrutinizercorecode_: there's no need for a loophole. We just need the kernel drivers for usb-host protocol, then we should be fine with manually enabled unpowred hostmode (the mode that needs a powered hub or y-cable)15:14
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corecode_no way to power the port?15:15
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SpeedEvilcorecode_, I have regrettably had no time. Spending most of my time digging.
DocScrutinizercorecode_: if we manage to switch on the GAIA chargepump, and the schematics are somewhat wrong on a missing capacitor, we even might get power15:15
FIQi don't think that google is down so... how to kill the web browser?15:16
FIQnot just close some windows15:17
DocScrutinizercorecode_: worst thing to throw stick on our legs is PHY chip not switching between pullup and pulldown resistors15:17
JaffaFIQ: Power menu > close active task?15:17
corecode_SpeedEvil: what are you doing?15:17
corecode_is that house too low or are you filling up the sides15:17
DocScrutinizercorecode_: but that wouldn't be a major showstopper15:17
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corecode_FIQ: xterm + killall browser browserd15:18
corecode_DocScrutinizer: yea that would suck15:18
FIQjaffa: that didn't help at first15:18
FIQdid it 2 times15:18
SpeedEvilcorecode_, I am extedndcing the lawn.15:18
FIQworked now though15:18
DocScrutinizercorecode_: I mean, we got Openmoko Frerunner charging hostmode running, where we seen same problem of pullup/down set wrong15:19
SpeedEvilThere was much unremoved spoil when digging pond.15:19
SpeedEvilFIQ, see dsmetololl15:19
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SpeedEvilFIQ, just killing browserd will trigger reboots.15:20
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: oh? never seen that15:20
corecode_fyi, those fake nokia CA-101 cables from hong kong for $1 work perfectly15:21
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corecode_finally enough micro-usb cables around15:21
SpeedEviljust got my new screen protectors.15:22
corecode_no, serious15:22
SpeedEvilKY screen protectors.15:23
corecode_ah, my screen protector is quite good too15:23
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SpeedEvilthey are _slidy_15:23
corecode_it is that 3m finnish sounding name15:23
corecode_kiiimotsu or so15:23
SpeedEvil(not really)15:23
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corecode_something like that15:23
corecode_SpeedEvil: how come the lawn is on the first floor level?15:24
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corecode_raised lawn?15:24
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corecode_heated from below?15:24
SpeedEvilcorecode_, house built on slope.15:24
corecode_we have that a lot here15:24
corecode_enter 0, exit 12, both "ground floor"15:25
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SpeedEvilcorecode. Only 2m difference.15:25
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ShadowJKbleh, now dsp video decode stopped working alltogether15:26
ShadowJKmore fun stuff in dmesg15:26
SpeedEvilI should be finishing off toiday, but 6c and rain15:26
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SpeedEvilSo am back in bed.15:26
threshwazd: yeah i've found his phone15:26
threshnot sure i'll be there at 7pm though15:26
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ShadowJKbut the most annoying thing is that the media player is failing silently15:27
ShadowJKI want error messages if there's an error!15:27
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wazdthresh: cool, I'm heading there right now to meet Vlad, so we'll be wandering around for a while :)15:27
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* thresh has no idea who Vlad is15:31
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ptlVlad Tepes, of course15:32
ptlaka Vlad The Impaler15:32
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ptlaka Count Dracula.15:32
MiXu-Anyone know if there's a way to easily disable prefetching Ovi Maps in bootup?15:33
MiXu-I don't use it. It's just eating mah memory.15:33
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threshptl: ah so he's now in Moscow, neat!15:34
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MiXu-Oh wait. It's not even prefetched :o15:38
MiXu-Never mind :)15:38
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* noobmonk3y just had steak n chips and is stuffed..........15:42
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noobmonk3ywtf is up with rmt ... like a yoyo!15:43
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Ijanzaheerm i would like to pm you15:50
Ijanis it okay?15:50
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Gizmokid2005is there any way to add a .ics subscription to the N900 calendar? I know you can import events from an ics file, but is there any way to make it an actual subscription so it gets refreshed?15:58
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noobmonk3ysorry Gizmokid2005 - no idea16:01
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Gizmokid2005noobmonk3y: it's not looking promising from what I can really doesn't make sense, you'd think that would be a simple and logical feature to have.16:01
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noobmonk3yhehe, no idea what an ics file is even, but assuming it is a load of apopintments that can be imported to the calendar?16:02
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noobmonk3yif so a sync would just be a deamon checking somewhere for updates?16:02
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Gizmokid2005noobmonk3y: <-- yeah, basically would just be refreshing the ics based on a specific refresh interval16:03
Gizmokid2005would be considering it a "subscription"16:03
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noobmonk3yi would assume it could be done, probably a request thread over at T.M.O?16:05
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Gizmokid2005noobmonk3y: that's what I was thinking, but I figured I'd check to see if maybe I was just dense and missed something that's there...16:05
noobmonk3ylol doesnt sound dense at all :D16:06
Gizmokid2005I just find it hard to believe that with so many people this is such an overlooked "feature"16:07
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threshwazd_e63: now who's Vlad?16:13
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Gizmokid2005noobmonk3y: looks like #6 & 7 are what I'm referring to.16:19
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noobmonk3ywow..... big ol' brainstorm!16:20
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wazd_e63Thresh: omweather admin :)16:22
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prontoi wonder if anyone is porting chromium to the n90016:27
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marcusbWhy all the complexity with /opt and scripts and what not?  Any reason one can't just "mv /usr /home; ln -s /home/usr /usr" ??16:28
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hrwmarcusb: emmc is fscking slow16:29
hrwcompared to onenand flash chip16:30
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AntiXpucT[17:13:12] CTCP VERSION ответ от Skim[n900] []: KVIrc 4.0.0 svn-4222-N900 'Insomnia' 20100125 - build 2010-03-26 12:25:27 UTC - Linux (
AntiXpucT(i've ported KVIrc to N900) :)16:32
hrwAntiXpucT: I do not trust ctcp version16:33
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ccookemarcusb: The other reason is that there are things in /usr needed before /home is available16:34
AntiXpucThrw, then wait some time, while i rebuild it with new paths and optify packages ;)16:35
hrwAntiXpucT: today irc clients allows to set anything16:35
AntiXpucTand i'll give you a links16:35
marcusbccooke: oops16:35
AntiXpucThrw, but i kill 3 days for porting, and i knew, that it is real version ;)16:35
hrwAntiXpucT: client which I normally use is already built for maemo5 but I do not use it16:35
hrwAntiXpucT: 15:33 < hrw> AntiXpucT: I do not trust ctcp version16:37
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hrwIrssi 0.8.14 (20090728) -
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Vratha_i spy on people talking on irc using tcpdump16:42
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corecode_what's that "backup" app people keep talking about16:43
andrewfblackWhat is up with some people taking the same theme changing background change hue and calling it a new theme?16:43
* SpeedEvil dumps on people using tcp.16:43
corecode_oh talking about background16:44
Stskeepsandrewfblack: open source?16:44
Vratha_corecode_: ubuntu one.16:44
petteriuh.. I was hoping fore pr 1.2 today16:44
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corecode_i wanted to use that as background16:44
corecode_Vratha_: is there a readymade app?16:44
andrewfblackStskeeps: I'm not naming a name but their is one theme designer that drives me crasy with his slight mods to the same theme over and over16:44
Vratha_corecode_: on ubuntu there is16:44
Vratha_but i don't use desktop linux16:45
corecode_Vratha_: but people use it for maemo, or so16:45
corecode_also one is suprslo16:45
Vratha_so i haven't used it16:45
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Vratha_don't know about maemo16:45
Vratha_thought you meant generally16:46
andrewfblackcorecode_: what you mean dynamically you want it to move like on website?16:46
corecode_andrewfblack: no, the picture updates every 10 minutes or so16:47
* andrewfblack needs inkscape on his n900 or thumb drive16:47
corecode_problem is also that the screen is too small16:48
corecode_can't fit the 360 deg panorama16:49
corecode_and i'm only using 2 screens16:49
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corecode_anybody set up snowy yet?  ubuntu one notes is quite slow16:50
StskeepsTomaszD: got PLA, ta16:51
andrewfblackcorecode_: Your most likly going to have to wait for PR1.3 I hear we should be getting html backgrounds then and you will be able to do that.  Also their is someone working on a 800x480 widget that will cover up your entire background.  It will let you do animations and stuff.16:51
andrewfblackStskeeps: Bubble Bobble will be in extras tonight16:52
andrewfblackTheme that is16:52
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gameprogramaHey all.16:52
Stskeepscool :)16:52
jattwhich chat program do you use in your n900?16:52
Stskeepsandrewfblack: you did see i update the template right?16:52
jattI use x-chat on my laptop is it available for maemo?16:53
gameprogramaAre there instructions for updating the SDK installation?16:53
Stskeepsjatt: yes16:53
gameprogramaI only see the instructions for installing the SDK from scratch using the GUI installer.16:53
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andrewfblackStskeeps: Yep Thanks16:53
* andrewfblack wishes everyone could see how many PMs he gets a day about theme design16:54
andrewfblackI got several ohh my god I can't build theme PMs when new hildon-theme-layout-5 was updated16:54
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corecode_andrewfblack: no, putting a jpg there would be fine16:55
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gameprogramaAnyone? :(16:57
threshwhere's wazd when you need him16:59
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andre__gameprograma, URL?16:59
threshgameprograma: IIRC SDK are better reinstalled then updated16:59
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gameprogramathresh: That means I'll have to download all of about 1GB or so all over again. :/16:59
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gameprogramaandre__: What URL? The SDK installation instructions?17:00
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MohammadAGgameprograma, my SDK works and it was updated17:00
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MohammadAGandre__, :)17:01
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MohammadAGNeed some help optifying a python source for py2deb17:02
gameprogramaMohammadAG: How carry out the update? Did you use the GUI installer?17:02
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andre__gameprograma: true, not mentioning updating. feel free to file a ticket against Dev Platform > Documentation in bugs.maemo.org17:02
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MohammadAGgameprograma, it doesn't really matter, to update just use apt-get dist-upgrade17:02
gameprogramaGot it.17:02
MohammadAGas fakeroot of course17:02
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TomaszDStskeeps, k, np17:03
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marcusb# apt-get install diff   => "Note, selecting busybox instead of diff." "busybox is already the newest version."   and then: # diff  => -sh: diff: not foun17:04
gameprogramaThanks for the help, guys.17:04
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andre__marcusb, bug 303217:05
povbotBug missing diff utility (required by the GNU Coding Standards)17:05
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mgedminoh, cool17:05
mgedminavahi-daemon also needs that17:05
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hrwmarcusb: thats nokism17:07
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mgedminandre__, are you the one to ask about creating a bugzilla product for avahi in the Maemo Extras category?17:07
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andre__mgedmin, yes, by email:
andre__and bare with me as I just got back from vacation. long backlog :-/17:08
andre__err bear17:08
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gouverneurcan anyone help me with sending an sms via cli?17:10
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gouverneuris there a telepathy interface or something?17:11
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gouverneurlooking in to opt it looks like noone ever follows a guidline (dont know if there is one)17:11
marcusbgeez, they can't fix this diff thing in 2 years?  *grmbl*17:12
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* mgedmin feels no hurry17:13
ShadowJKbattery meter is pretty confused by the mugen battery, even after a discharge-charge cycle..17:14
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corecode_how long does it last now?17:15
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ShadowJKwow, nexus 1 screen res is "fake"17:21
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andrewfblackI just found my new work phone, where I work we only have access to iDEN network so I have always been stuck with really crappy phones.  I just saw the Motorola i1 and even though it wont be replacing my N900 as my primary phone its the best iden phone I have ever seen17:21
nidOCorsac essentially the phone doesnt fully utilise the display's supported resolution17:22
Corsacsounds like fail17:22
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microlithwell no17:24
microlithit does use the display's supported resolution, the display simply isn't RGB on every pixel17:24
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MohammadAGhow long does an invitation into extras-devel take?17:25
ShadowJKAs far as I understand it, it's only 800x480 for green pixels :)17:26
microlithpretty much17:26
noobmonk3yMohammadAG:  Pretty quick during the week, but weekends are slow, did mine sat morning, got it accepted mon morning17:26
MohammadAGnoobmonk3y, oh, so maybe I should stop refreshing my email account :)17:27
noobmonk3ydone manually17:27
noobmonk3yyup ;)17:27
MohammadAGyeah I know lol17:27
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MohammadAGnoobmonk3y, so I just upload the three files and the autobuilder does the rest?17:28
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MohammadAGrebooting into linux17:32
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noobmonk3yand yes MohammadAG - yes you upload one(Changes file) - it checks and then asks you to upload the other two,....17:36
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Gizmokid2005alright, I feel like an idiot, but I can't find this video, or figure out the name of the feature. In Firefox you can swipe right/left to bring up the menus on those sides, (tabs, etc), and I know there's a way to do it in Qt...but I can't think of the name or find the video that showcases this feature....Help???17:38
MohammadAGty noobmonk3y :)17:38
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Guest91702silahkan masuk Guest91702 silahkan chit-chat dimari..17:54
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Guest91702silahkan masuk evo silahkan chit-chat dimari..17:54
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Guest91702silahkan masuk vpoluceno silahkan chit-chat dimari..17:56
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wazd_e63For those who cares:  we're near the monument :)17:57
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ptlwhich monument?17:59
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Myrttiptl: cheesecake18:04
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FIQhm, a question18:07
FIQthe opt-thing-idea18:08
FIQwhy have that?18:08
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rexjackjust one questin how do i restart the musik search in mediaplayer18:10
aquatixMyrtti: the cake is a lie18:10
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corecode_what's the dimensions of the backdrop?18:15
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corecode_i need to cut the image?18:18
AntiXpucTit is kvirc for N90018:20
ptllemme see18:20
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AntiXpucTbut it is not fully usable18:21
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MohammadAGkonttori, ping18:23
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ptlAntiXpucT: why not? what's the problem/18:25
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gouverneurrexjack: search maemo for trackerd18:25
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MyrttiFIQ: you mean optifying?18:25
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aoeuis there a package for the n900 that includes the 'screen' utility?18:25
AntiXpucTptl, widgets size ;)18:26
FIQbtw, why cannot we install .deb packages not coming from a repo?18:26
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greenflyyou can (if they are compiled for ARM) but you have to be careful to not fill up the / partition18:26
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greenflyalso there might be dependencies that you have to pull down manually18:27
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noobmonk3yscreen utility?18:27
FlandryAre there instructions somewhere for updating the SDK?18:27
greenflyhaving packages in repositories solves this as the dependencies are handled18:27
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FIQso KVirc isn't optified?18:27
b0unc3I just upgraded my SDK and now when I copy the bin on my device I get a dependencies problem with libhildon1 ,I think this issue is related with the upgrade, is there any way to fix ?18:27
nidOit may or may not be18:28
aoeunoobmonk3y: yes.
greenflyI've been running irssi from a remote screen session for irc for years18:28
MyrttiFIQ: the optify thing is because the / is quite small partition and you end up filling it unless you install software to other partitions. Filling the / is in general A Bad Idea™ as you prolly know18:28
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MohammadAGwhy is there a New MMS string rtcom-messaging-ui.mo18:28
FIQthen we come to the next thing:18:28
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FIQwhy having a root partition even smaller than the swap?18:29
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nidOlimitation of the size of nand memory chips18:29
achipaFIQ: hardware limit18:29
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FIQbut i would happily spend 10GB of MyDocs to the rootfs (if that would be possible)18:30
ptlaoeu: screen is available in the tools repository18:30
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MohammadAGit should be18:30
nidOtechnically it might be possible by repartitioning18:30
noobmonk3ycheers aoeu  - interesting :D18:30
ptlaoeu: I have it installed and it works perfectly18:30
nidObut youll end up with a device that takes like 5 minutes to boot18:30
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noobmonk3yArif_: You are quiet, this is not normal? ;)18:30
greenflythere /has/ to be a rootfs / opt faq we can point people to18:31
nidOnand = much much much faster than emmc18:31
greenflythis question comes up every day18:31
nidOits in about 50 places in the wiki18:31
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nidOand like 5,000 on the forums18:31
greenflythat's the problem18:31
ptlthere is, greenfly18:31
greenflyptl: then let's use it :)18:31
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FlandryGreat, now could someone point me to the wiki entry on updating SDK? :P18:32
nidOits just apt-get update apt-get dist-upgrade18:32
nidOas fakeroot18:32
FlandryI really borked it when i tried apt-get before :/18:32
MohammadAGFlandry, apt-get dist-upgrade18:32
MohammadAGit doesn't need a wiki18:32
MohammadAGnidO, beat me to it18:33
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MohammadAGFlandry, that borks the N900, not the SDK18:33
Flandrydo you have to disable any repos18:33
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aoeuptl: much appreciated18:33
FlandryI'm speaking past tense from experience lol18:33
FlandryI'll try on the new image18:33
FlandryJust wanted to verify18:33
MohammadAGFlandry, I had all repos enabled18:34
Flandryok thanks18:34
FlandryRead the changes thread, thanks for that18:34
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MohammadAGFlandry, np :)18:34
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aoeunoobmonk3y: welcome to the dark side :)18:35
MohammadAGI repeat, why is there a new MMS string?18:35
Flandrydoes it need to be done in both targets separately?18:35
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corecode_so what do i use to download a file from http?18:36
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corecode_for scripting purposes18:36
corecode_wget doesn't exist18:36
Flandrydepend on it18:36
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MohammadAGFlandry, depends on what you want to do18:38
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MohammadAGif it's for programming, yes, if it's for emulation of the UI, X8618:38
Flandryok, so yes for release18:38
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ptlFlandry: I updated my maemo5 sdk ok, but I have some repositories on it that sometimes fail and it won't proceed if apt return an error.18:39
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ptlFlandry: so to run the maemo5 gui I had to disable these repositories18:39
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ptlFlandry: but the procedure is just that - you run the gui installer for the maemo5 sdk and all goes well18:39
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* noobmonk3y grins slightly evil'y18:40
nidOso how was butlins18:40
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noobmonk3yMohammadAG: New MMS String - as in MMS - as in frals? - possibly something to do with nokia assisting Frals?18:40
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marcusbanybody has native packages for libgles2-sgx-img-dev and opengles-sgx-img-common-dev?  I want a native libqt4-dev18:41
b0unc3guys, anyone get problems using .debs created after the SDK update ?18:41
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dotblankIs there a way to use gpsd?18:48
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MohammadAGnoobmonk3y, wouldn't he have said something about it? And I really doubt it since it doesn't follow MMS specs18:53
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nidOwho knows, nokia on the way to adding it themselves maybe18:55
ptlis there an easy way to use gpsd on your ubuntu and connecting to the GPS on the N900?18:55
noobmonk3yMohammadAG: If it is something to do with pr1.2 he would not be allowed to talk about it18:55
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marcusbis there a calendar app supporting caldavd?18:56
noobmonk3ythere must be a reason it is not there, and in my head if they are not officially creating it, it must be there to support it18:56
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noobmonk3ymarcusb:  dont think so, but no calendar expert18:57
MohammadAGnoobmonk3y, live wallpapers were talked about :)18:57
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noobmonk3yhmm true somethings have been mentioned, but i'm very certain other things have been kept hush hush :D18:57
petteriahh... does live wallpapers work with new sdk18:57
MohammadAGpetteri, I already pinged konttori, he doesn't seem to be ponging, so I'm assuming he's away18:58
* noobmonk3y plays ping pong then goes home ;)18:58
noobmonk3yciao alls18:58
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dotblankwhat repo is bluez-utils-test in?19:02
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mgedmindotblank, try searching on
* MohammadAG wonders why qwerty12 never comes on here anymore :(19:14
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Corsachmhm, still no news of PR1.2?19:14
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dotblankWhat exactly is the purpose of minigpsd?19:15
dotblankdoes it actually use the gps device? or does it connect to an external one19:15
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naxxatoe|mbpdotblank: i wondered the same19:18
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dotblankBecause im trying to use aircrack-ng with it and it has an option to use gpsd19:18
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dotblankmaybe I can modify the source of airodump-ng to add support for liblocation API19:20
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ptldoes GPSd allow remote forwarding of GPS data?19:28
dotblankI think so but I can't seem to find a wrapper for gpsd in maemo19:29
dotblankits been replaced by liblocation19:29
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ptlthere's minigpsd for it19:30
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ptlwould it work?19:30
ptlliblocation reserves the GPS and doesn't allow it to be used?19:30
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gouverneurb0unc3: have you thought of that devices are still !=PR1.2 before you asked that question?19:31
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TheOnehi @all19:39
aziwoqpdhi @one19:39
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TheOnemy new n900 will be deliver tomorrow19:40
TheOneis there a tutorial with first steps?19:40
MohammadAGNoobmonk3y, just got the invitation :)19:40
MohammadAGTheOne, there's a Get started app installed19:41
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Lumpio-Put battery in, push button.19:41
TheOneah cool19:41
MohammadAGand there are hundreds of videos on youtube19:41
b0unc3gouverneur, yes, but so, if I release a deb (builded with pr1.2, since also autobuilder is updated to 1.2) nobody would be able to test it ?19:41
* disco_stu me eclipso.. hasta lueguines19:41
Noobmonk3yMohammadAG, yay19:43
TheOnei am really happy - can't wait to get that device in my fingers ^^19:43
ptlTheOne: there's a quickstart guide with it, but if you really want a manual, you can download the (excellent) manual in PDF format from the Nokia site19:43
TheOneah okay, thx19:43
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TheOnesome of you guys involved with MeeGo?19:44
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Khertanhi !19:45
ptlhello again19:45
ptlTheOne: join #meego19:46
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Khertandoes there is a dvorak keyboard layout available ?19:51
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hrwKhertan: ukeyboard had one iirc19:52
hrwb0unc3: exactly19:52
Khertanhi hrw and thx ... i ll take a look at it19:53
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TheOnecan someone tell me how much internet traffic volume he/she has with the n900 per month?19:56
TheOnemore than 1GB ?19:57
MohammadAGNoobmonk3y, does autobuilder build applications for both i368 and armel?19:58
Noobmonk3yMohammadAG,  yup think so19:59
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Noobmonk3yarmel always takes longer19:59
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* lcuk finds a quiet little patch in the corner and curls up to go to sleep20:00
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Noobmonk3ylcuk, me thinks u will like the next healthcheck :)20:00
Khertanhrw: ukeyboard is only a virtual keyboard not for mapping the n900 keyboard, isn t it ?20:01
lcukdoes it check blood pressure and administer amphetamines?20:01
hrwKhertan: in n810 times it was both20:01
lcukoh, and prescribe those little matchsticks for eyes20:01
Khertanbacon flying to verify lcd dead pixels ?20:01
dmj726_n9001TheOne: it varies hugely from user to user.20:02
lcukmmmmmmmmmmmmmm bacon20:02
lcukthanks Khertan for reminding me of the finer things in life20:02
dmj726_n9001some use a couple hundred mb some use several gb20:02
Khertanhrw: maybe that description isn't clear enought20:02
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Khertanlcu: héhé20:02
Khertanlcuk: héhé20:02
TheOnedmj726_n9001: i know, but i though someone can tell me some numbers20:03
Khertanarg cannot be install package missing :(20:03
dmj726_n9001I think there is a thread in the forums.20:04
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MohammadAGNoobmonk3y, cause it built the i368 and it's getting pushed to extras-devel, but I haven't received anything about the armel version20:05
Noobmonk3ytakes an hour at best recently a few more20:05
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summelcan i install maemo on a touchbook?20:09
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cehtehmer at best20:09
Noobmonk3ywell u can get it on an ipad so why not20:09
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summelewww ipad20:10
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nidOsummel it's already known to run mer20:12
summelhow does mer compare to the maemo on trhe n900?20:12
nidOmaemo support is apparently on the way20:12
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nidOand knowing AI, theyll probably find a way to manage it pretty well20:12
summeli would use meego if it would be better then moblin20:12
nidOI dont really know why you'd want either mer or maemo on a touchbook other than to say "oh look it works"20:13
cehtehwell you cant install nokia binaries on another device, the eula forbids that20:13
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summelnidO: because i love the maemo on the n900 :)20:14
summeland i dont want the ai "os"20:14
nidOthats because its on an n900. on a full touchbook, the main choices, ai os, ubuntu, and love it or hate it, android, are all much better choices20:14
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summeli would rather use gentoo with kde4 then anything else currently availeable :P20:15
nidOgentoo works on it as well20:15
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summelbut compiling takes sooo long :(20:15
summelesp on 600 MhZ >_>20:16
lcukhow on earth did people cope in days before 600mhz processors?20:16
lcuki remember building apps and stuff on 7mhz amiga in c20:16
hrwlcuk: I used AmigaE20:17
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luke-jrsummel: meh, works for me on N81020:17
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luke-jrlcuk: code was less abstracted20:18
luke-jrand compiled faster20:18
lcukabstraction should make code faster20:18
lcukits not like functions are a new thing20:18
luke-jrabstraction just makes everything slower20:18
luke-jrI don't mean functions20:18
luke-jrI mean interfaces independent from implementation20:18
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lcukluke-jr, ?20:21
lcukyou mean like pascal :D20:21
luke-jrI mean APIs ;)20:21
luke-jrforward/backward compat20:21
luke-jralso, I think compilers are a bit faster if you use -O020:22
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tganyone knows what's the current status of qt perl bindings?20:27
tgi've just seen it listed as a gsoc project idea20:27
luke-jrprobably non-existent20:28
MiXu-I don't see why anyone would want to write qt apps in perl =)20:28
MiXu-When there's Python20:29
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* SpeedEvil wonders on qt-awk20:30
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t-tanif you want perl code, just run the python code through an obfuscator :)20:31
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luke-jrMiXu-: because Python sucks?20:34
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MiXu-And Perl doesn't? :)20:35
MiXu-Í've done my share of perl20:35
luke-jrPerl is awesome20:35
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luke-jrbut not meant for GUIs, I admit20:35
MiXu-Perl is awesome to a point20:35
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MiXu-But when you get to a point where you're dealing with thousands of lines of code it stops being cool.20:36
MiXu-For small stuff it's very useful20:36
Kurppa_Hi everybody. Maemo newbie here. :-)20:37
MiXu-Hi Kurppa. Long time no see.20:37
Kurppa_Oh hi. I remember you :-)20:38
* luke-jr finds Perl especially useful for writing compilers20:38
Arif_~rob Noobmonk3y20:39
* infobot strips Noobmonk3y of his nick, title and all rights & privileges and gives them to someone more worthy20:39
* Noobmonk3y farts20:39
Arif_I waz outside :O20:39
* lcuk bottles it and releases it back up Noobmonk3y 20:39
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Venomrushjust updated
redcan't believe i didnt need this earlier20:40
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redbut how on earth do you create a custom group in contacts and apply a different ringtone for those?20:40
MohammadAGNoobmonk3y, one more question, when I have an updated package I just upload it again and it puts it in the same directory right?20:40
Arif_Venomrush, so pr1.2 is out?20:40
Venomrushmore BUGS RESOLVED added20:41
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Venomrushno :\20:41
Arif_nm then :(20:41
Venomrushi didn't say that20:41
hrwVenomrush: I do not like your way of fixing bugs20:41
Venomrushi don't fix bugs..20:41
hrwbug 6933 for example20:41
povbotBug Alarm times are shown wrong20:41
Arif_# 7124 media player loses cover art if song changes while screen is locked20:42
Arif_# eo20:42
Arif_# 7353 RDS station name should not contain album (esp. when its unknown)20:42
redhow important is the full battery before flashing btw?20:42
Venomrushi wasn't able to reproduce it on my end20:42
Venomrushwith my N9720:42
Arif_whats the eo in there?20:42
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Venomrushit got truncated20:43
Arif_what was it originally I wonder..20:43
hrwVenomrush: now try to reproduce it again with test event20:43
Venomrushthen feel free to reopen :)20:43
hrwVenomrush: this time I gave nearly 5 years for nokia to fix it20:43
hrwVenomrush: it is reopened and confirmed20:44
GAN900Ah, nice post from achipa.20:44
Venomrushthink i got most of the stuff from into the PR1.2 wiki20:44
redno contact groups20:45
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redand this was labeled as a business device :)20:45
hrwVenomrush: drop list of pacakges maybe from wiki20:45
hrwVenomrush: or move them to end of page20:45
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hrwVenomrush: most users are interested in new features and fixed bugs rather20:46
Venomrushfrom the version number20:46
Venomrushit seems pr1.2 only contain fixes up until week 920:46
Venomrushso that's first week of march20:46
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hrwI will add new feature which rather no one found before :D20:47
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Venomrushi thought pr1.2 will have live wallpaper20:48
Venomrushapparently not anymore from the sdk20:49
hrwVenomrush: try to make better descriptions in wiki page - check my last changes20:49
SpeedEvilwhat page is this?20:50
MohammadAGwhat else gets talked about other than PR1.2 :)20:50
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hrwArif_: PeeGo?20:51
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Venomrush"* Status area is now reachable in portrait mode"20:52
hrwdo we want bug numbers to be links?20:52
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Venomrushthere is no 'portrait mode' you may want to be specific there20:52
MohammadAGVenomrush, I noticed that, but I thought it was a bug/forced rotation, who confirmed it?20:52
Arif_status area?20:52
MohammadAGArif_, the thing with the clock/availability etc..20:53
hrwVenomrush: run phone app, rotate phone20:53
Arif_yeah, that's so useful to have in portrait mode....20:53
hrwVenomrush: you will have portrait mode right?20:53
MohammadAGArif_, actually, it is20:53
hrwand in PR1.2 you will be able to use status area20:53
Venomrush"* Status area is now reachable in portrait mode" - this makes it sound phone support full portrait mode20:53
Venomrush*sounds like20:53
Venomrushchange it to phont/browser specific20:54
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MohammadAGVenomrush, many apps have portrait support, not just phone/browser20:54
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Venomrushthe 'official' :p20:55
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zaheermblocks :)20:56
* Arif_ wonders if other official apps will ever get portrait20:56
hrwVenomrush: any app can be in portrait mode if is programmed properly20:56
hrwArif_: doubt so20:56
nidOsrsly why would they bother20:56
Arif_I'll buy a Moogo device then :D20:56
Arif_one with real speakers!20:57
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zaheermi doubt they are going to spend the time doing the whole lifecycle UI design -> code to get portrait support for apps on maemo 520:57
SpeedEvil!bug 716020:57
povbotBug Camera app hardcodes and requires FAT partition20:57
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zaheermharmattan will no doubt be where they put effort into getting good portrait uis for apps20:57
MohammadAG<Arif_> one with real speakers!20:57
MohammadAGI think the EU doesn't allow 5800-like speakers20:58
MohammadAGthe same EU that forced us to use microUSBs for charging20:58
Arif_they don't have a regulation about speakers20:58
Arif_only headphones20:58
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TheOneis there a key list for the channel bot?20:59
MohammadAGwhen a package is built, does it automatically get bumped to the latest version?20:59
TheOnefor the infobot21:00
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hrwok, updated page a bit and reformatted21:00
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hrw|gonehave a nice rest of day and weekend21:01
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* lcuk hides behind Noobmonk3y 21:02
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* Arif_ yawns at PR1.221:03
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* MohammadAG hits Arif_ 21:04
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* Arif_ throws search in media palyer at MohammadAG21:04
DocScrutinizer51errr ""filemanager is now able to share *ANY* file...""???21:04
* nidO hates stupid users21:04
nidOany file that it can access yes21:05
Venomrushstill can't see the extensions21:06
DocScrutinizer51so this wording implies a major flaw been fixed while in fact shit remains the same21:06
Venomrushit's not a proper file manager to me without this21:06
Venomrushand changing extensions..21:06
Venomrushcould be a settings like windows explorer to show extensions as an advanced option21:07
nidOhave you tried gpe to see if that shows extensions?21:07
DocScrutinizer51WHF has none if the Nokia devel took a look at his TBP, to get inspiration from finder's "go to" function?21:07
nidOin fact, gpe does show extensions21:07
lcukOMG WTF BBQ?21:07
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MohammadAGVenomrush, well they tried to make it easier and less risky for users to toy with their systems21:08
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MohammadAGsuppose the filemanager showed /21:08
MohammadAG"I found a directory called /usr that contained a ****load files so I deleted it and my N900 doesn't boot up. HELP!!!!!!111!!!!!!!!!!!!! \21:09
MohammadAGI'm disappointed in Nokia with the crap N900"21:09
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DocScrutinizer51MohammadAG: you know how cute finder handles this?21:10
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joppuDelete your system32 to make your computer run faster21:10
DocScrutinizer51MohammadAG: btw user should lack perms to delete system stuff21:11
MohammadAGDocScrutinizer51, knowing nokia, the user would have perms on PR1.0 :p21:11
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* noobmonk3y waves21:11
MohammadAGjoppu, just delete the whole windows directory21:11
noobmonk3yanyone fancy asking what should be a simple python question for me?21:11
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nidOasking it or answering it?21:11
noobmonk3yanswering lol21:12
MohammadAGseems like asking21:12
noobmonk3yself.textBrowser.setText ("text")    ....  sets the text in a textbrowser....21:12
noobmonk3yif i want to add loads of text.... how do i append, so not to create one huuuge line21:12
C-S-B-N900woohoo. maemo just had fit with gpodder.21:12
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noobmonk3ylol C-S-B-N90021:12
* MohammadAG has no idea what that means21:12
MohammadAGnoobmonk3y, could be \?21:12
noobmonk3yerm, i get the new line part21:13
MohammadAGlike in terminal21:13
andrewfblack_would it be wrong to charge people to build their themes for them if they are to lazy to learn to do it them selfs?21:13
noobmonk3ybut thinking more of splitting the line in the coed?21:13
lizardonoobmonk3y: "your " + "long" + "text"     , or put it on some file and use open("file").read()21:13
* Arif_ waits for "share" in media player and falls asleep21:13
MohammadAGandrewfblack_, imo, no, since they can build it alone21:13
lcuknoobmonk3y, coed?21:13
noobmonk3yooo lizardo - good idea21:13
noobmonk3ylcuk - I r Ill21:13
MohammadAGandrewfblack_, basically, xchat do it, Windows version is paid, linux one isn't (and it's open source)21:13
noobmonk3yand can't type but thats usual21:13
lcuki am tired21:13
lcukMilhouse, :D21:14
noobmonk3ylcuk - thats cos u dont sleep21:14
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lcuki cant type either21:14
andrewfblack_MohammadAG: thas true21:14
lcuknoobmonk3y, i sleep occasionally21:14
MohammadAGandrewfblack_, do I get half the income for saying yes? :P21:14
andrewfblack_MohammadAG: lol I don't know if I'll do it but I should lol21:15
* lcuk considers investing in cloning companies21:15
andrewfblack_AndrewFBlack's Theme Build Service lol21:15
lcukbut i need money first21:15
Arif_what company would you clone21:16
lcuki would clone myself21:16
lcukso one of me can sleep21:16
* noobmonk3y eeeeeeks21:16
lcukwhilst the other does job21:16
lcukand another can work on liqbase21:17
MohammadAGandrewfblack_, if you've got the time why not21:17
noobmonk3ytakeway - lol ordered it an hour ago, better go get it!21:17
MohammadAGandrewfblack_, but I can imagine someone doing it for free just to make your service look bad :p21:17
andrewfblack_MohammadAG: the effect will still be the same21:17
* andrewfblack_ has been temped to do some paid themes but is to nice21:18
FIQok, rhe sms/calling features isn't the most interesting thing in the phone, but it really should be a "Respond" button somewhere at a SMS21:18
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DocScrutinizer51damn, 4h of UMTS seriously drained my bat to some 40%21:20
lcukAndrewFBlack, done cleanly with a decent set of correctly sourced materials i dont think anyone would complain at you :)21:20
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lcukyour themes kick ass21:20
MohammadAGanyway to uninstall something that was installed from a file?21:21
MohammadAGFIQ, huh?21:21
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MohammadAGthe SMS feature is the best one I've seen on any device21:21
andrewfblack_lcuk: You talking about my idea to charge people to build their themes or the idea about selling some themes?21:21
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lcukmm both21:23
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lcuksoryr i got distracted looking at laughingstok's photo album21:23
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FIQthe sms21:23
FIQwatching an incoming sms21:24
FIQmissing "respond" button21:24
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FIQonly delete, copy, forward21:24
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C-S-B-N900any reason lirc doesnt start automatically?21:27
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MohammadAGwhat's /dev/pts?21:28
MohammadAGFIQ, err, why do you click on the SMS in the conversation?21:29
MohammadAGjust type in the white box and click the send (enter) button21:29
FIQi didn't?21:29
FIQok, maaaybe i did. :P21:29
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lcukare there any v4l2 examples which people have tested to work with n90021:31
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dottedmagIs there ssh-agent and askpass dialog for Maemo?21:35
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MohammadAGany tmo mods online?21:37
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cehtehtmo mods?21:41
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MohammdAG_noobmonk3y, err, bugtrackers aren't auto created?21:47
ptl<question type="newbie" flavor="troll">Why doesn't maemo support MMS? Why doesn't it have videocall? How about voice guide GPS? When is PR1.2 out? Why doesn't it have a capacitive screen? Why no multitouch? Couldn't it be thinner? How can I assign a ringtone to a contact? How do I do Skype video? How do I run java programs?</question>21:47
ptlDid I leave something out?21:47
|Rtroll are very creative, so something is always left out :P21:48
Kurppa_Why does the battery last so short time?21:48
ptlMaybe we could do a poll, what's your preferred newbie question?21:48
ptlyes, good21:48
MohammdAG_ptl, can we upload porn made on the N900 on tmo?21:48
Kurppa_Why is the UI so slow?21:48
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Kurppa_Why does it leak so much memory?21:48
Kurppa_Why is it so fat?21:49
MohammdAG_why is the N900 called the N900? Why not N850?21:49
ptlleak memory? That does not seem like a newbie question21:49
Kurppa_Ah, sorry.21:49
odin_Why does my (Symbian / iPhone / Andriod) application not work on it ?21:49
ptlthat's ok, we just change the type to "averagely informed user"21:49
Funnyfacemobprobably because they found the GSM/UMTS capabilities significant enough to name it that way21:50
odin_Why does it break when I drop it on the floor ?21:50
Funnyfacemobbut well model numbers never make any sense anyway21:50
Funnyfacemobit's a sales gimmick21:51
Kurppa_Why can't I see the display on sunny weather?21:51
andrewfblack_MohammdAG_: No on the Porn21:51
andrewfblack_< TMO Mod21:51
Kurppa_Why is youtube so slow :(21:51
ptlIs there any way for me to post a poll on
MohammdAG_andrewfblack_, just making fun of the thread on TMO ;)21:51
Funnyfacemobmy nokia 5200 and 6300 are exactly the same devices21:51
ptlso that I can post this21:51
ptlI'm looking some way to do it.21:51
odin_Why isn't there going to be a Meego version for my N900 ?21:52
andrewfblack_MohammdAG_: I was hoping lol did you notice I told him to post a photo of his wife then we would decided if he could post video or not21:52
MohammdAG_haha yeah now I remember, thought you didn't see it ;)21:53
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odin_Where can I get this Angry Bird expansion pack ?   ... When can I get ..... ?21:54
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sivanghi all21:54
sivanghow do I sync all my data from N900 to N97 Mini ?21:54
MohammdAG_andrewfblack_, can you please change the title of [ANNOUNCE]Noor (Quran app) now in extras-devel?21:54
sivanghow does that syncML thingo works ?21:54
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andrewfblack_MohammdAG_: I only Mod Themes and Design Sections talk to edgar2, Flandry about application section21:55
MohammdAG_I'm assuming you just pinged them? :)21:56
andrewfblack_MohammdAG_: don't ask why we don't have global power only Tim does21:56
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MohammdAG_andrewfblack_, I'm not haha, I mod on a PS3 site and we have the same 'limits'21:56
odin_what was the outcome of the meego meeting the other day, unfortunately I had a late night at the data centre, maybe I should track down the recording21:56
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odin_I've been totally out of the loop on anything for the past 2 months, right about the time the announcement came21:57
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Arif_we're still waiting for an useful firmware update :P21:58
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Kurppa_It will probably be a long wait :-)21:58
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andrewfblack_what up GAN90021:59
odin_was that comment to me Arif_ ?  I am on 3.2010.02-8  is this PR1.1.1 ?21:59
Arif_yeah =}21:59
odin_there have not been many software updates in the past 2 months either that I remember....21:59
odin_is there a PR1.1.2 due out ?  with Qt 4.7 is it ?22:00
* Arif_ doesn't know anything about Moogo so won't comment on that =P22:00
GAN900andrewfblack_, installing door sensors and bemoaning the fact that home improvement stores never have what you need.22:00
MohammdAG_wasn't it 4..522:00
Arif_1.2 should have 4.6.222:00
MohammdAG_1.2 has* :)22:00
Arif_there is no 1.2 :P22:00
MohammdAG_there is an SDK22:00
odin_ok its 4.5.3~git20090723-0maemo6+0m5 that is currently on my N90022:01
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andrewfblack_GAN900: of cource not why would they have it22:01
odin_is the new Qt incompatible to be mixed at runtime ?  i.e. why can't 4.5.3 be put in /opt/maemo/lib for legacy apps ?22:01
GAN900andrewfblack_, dunno, silly me.22:01
C-S-Bgmail down for anyone else?22:03
C-S-Bsays its just me at
andrewfblack_My new door locks my wife called thinks I'm a nerd but I know I am
Kurppa_Qt 4.6.2~git20100212-0maemo1 says this thing.22:03
odin_ignoring the problem is memory footprint, I understand the binary linkage incompatibility (although usually thats a major version bump of the DSO version usually /usr/lib/
odin_Kurppa_, what "thing" have you got there then ?22:04
Kurppa_Never mind that.22:05
Kurppa_Just ignore my comments.22:05
odin_I guess you must know for sure its going to be a long wait for PR1.1.222:05
odin_if you have 4.6.2 on your "thing" already LOLs22:06
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adisbladisIs there any way to get your n900 internal storage be something other then vfat?22:07
odin_so mixing Qt 4.5 and 4.6 at runtime is not possible because ?22:07
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adisbladisI want some kind of ext file system but my mkfs.ext2 is failing22:07
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odin_in theory sure, if you don't need Windows/Mac storage support via USB but most people like to keep that feature22:07
odin_you are messing with /dev/mmcblk0p1  (as your peril) ?22:08
Kurppa_If it's running in mass storage mode, I wonder if it's possible to just change eMMC to NTFS.22:08
Kurppa_Then use the custom ntfs-3g kernel module to make N900 also understand the contents.22:08
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odin_then that would really mess up with the N900 own view of it, isn't NTFS still "not ready for production status" in kernel ?22:09
ptlmy eMMC is on ext322:09
Kurppa_I understand there is already some custom kernel package in maemo-devel which provides this ntfs-3g.22:09
ptlI had to modify a couple of init scripts22:09
ptlfor it to work22:09
Kurppa_But it is for PR1.1 kernel.22:09
Kurppa_Can you export it using mass storage mode, so linux can see it?22:10
odin_have you backup up content of  /home/user/MyDocs to /home/foobar, then unmounted it first adisbladis ?  umount /home/user/MyDocs22:10
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adisbladisodin_: Im trying to do it from my pc22:11
adisbladisodin_: Not the phone22:12
ptlKurppa_: Yes, I can, and it automounts and works perfectly under linux22:12
Kurppa_Very nice.22:12
adisbladisIt just destroyed my old vfat partition22:12
odin_but isn't it mounted inside the device already as well as ?22:13
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adisbladisodin_: Nope22:13
adisbladisIt might be the phone trying to automount it as soon as it detects it and therefore freezing?22:13
ptlodin_: when it's in mass storage mode, both MMCs (internal and external, MyDocs and my /media/mmc1) are unmounted in the phone and mounted in my Linux22:14
odin_yes Im not sure of the details of how the /home/user/MyDocs is mounted when your engage mass storage mode22:14
ptlodin_: and when I unplug it, it correctly remounts them in the phone22:14
MohammadAG**** I turned off the N900 while installing a package22:14
odin_ideally there should be an interface that provides a VFAT view of any FS for mass-storage mode22:14
ptlbut as I said, I modified two scripts... mainly /usr/bin/mmc-mount22:14
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MohammadAGhopefully dpkg --configure -a will fix it22:15
ptlMohammadAG: apt-get -f install, then reinstall the package22:15
odin_so the N900 never needs to unmount, I had this convo before in here, this would allow ext3 for on-disc/mmc format but provide VFAT via to USB at the same time22:15
MohammadAGI'll check with dpkg first :)22:15
Kurppa_I hope they will get rid of this rootfs and /home/user hassle.22:16
ptlodin_: my /usr/bin/mmc-mount script is the following:22:17
MohammadAGKurppa_, nokia? how?22:17
ptlit's /usr/sbin/mmc-mount22:17
ptlmount -t vfat -o $3,noauto,nodev,noexec,nosuid,noatime,nodiratime,utf8,uid=29999,shortname=mixed,dmask=000,fmask=0133,rodir "$1" "$2" > /dev/null || mount -o $3,noauto,noatime,nodiratime "$1" "$2" > /dev/null22:17
ptlI just added the part with the "||" and after.22:17
ptlit tries to mount as vfat, if it can't, it tries again with type autodetected.22:18
odin_yes the rootfs issue is a major one as to contributing for me22:18
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odin_i.e. I worked out how much time I would be spending maintaining that issue in order to release packages and then thought about what the reward for it was, when Im sure the next model will have a bigger OneNAND/eMMC22:19
ml-mobileit might have 512M if they've already started22:20
Kurppa_I mean the rootfs in N900 was so small.22:20
odin_remind us of the reasons for root being on the OneNAND, was it performance ?  it has a software based wear-leveler provided by part of UBIFS's infrastructure, but remind me what benefit we get again22:20
cehtehsmall isnt the problem, the way its set up is22:20
Kurppa_They fixed it partly using that /opt, but there are still some problems.22:20
asjodin_: I'm guess it's a very high number of read/write cycles22:21
odin_speed of what ?  read's ?  write's ?22:21
ml-mobileOneNAND is much faster than eMMC22:21
ml-mobilethe thing is connected directly to the CPU as well22:21
odin_and the I/O stats of the FS indicate what life expectancy of the flash ?22:21
odin_so why isn't it used as a cache?  main rootfs on eMMC is loaded into OneNAND22:22
odin_writes back to eMMC are journaled through OneNAND, something like that22:22
odin_the /tmp and such dirs are 100% on OneNAND22:22
asjodin_: eMMC may only have 10,000 writes, I  don't know the part22:23
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ShadowJK"something like that" isn't a viable argument you take to managers :-)22:23
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ShadowJKHopefully LogFS will be ready for the next device, it should have performance almost as good as ubifs on onenand22:24
odin_I thought modern flash was in the order of 100k+22:24
ShadowJK(although logfs author did say it'd be slower on emmc... oh well)22:24
ptlwhat about "something unlike that"?22:24
odin_no the point I am making is22:24
asjodin_: depends on the device22:24
ptlIt would appeal to the NIH Syndrome22:24
ml-mobileSLC nand at higher lithographies22:24
ShadowJKslower than logfs on onenand i mean22:24
ShadowJKml-mobile, the speed thing is not really a SLC vs MLC issue... endurance, yes22:25
odin_the OneNAND resource is a resource, if its purpose it to increase life expectancy and performance because it has a high a access speeds and also high number of erases possible, also maybe at smaller graundlarity22:25
odin_then treat it as such in software, make it a cache/journal for a real logical rootfs which is really back by eMMC22:25
odin_*backed by eMMC, its just that some useful often read/written sector have an alias in OneNAND22:26
ml-mobilesure, but what are you going to use to achieve that?22:26
ShadowJKThere are no such drivers right now22:26
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ml-mobileno shit22:26
ShadowJKI'd rather invest in making one of the nonsucky filesystems ready..22:26
Kurppa_Cost-wise, if the rootfs is situated in eMMC, I don't think they would even add an OneNAND chip there.22:26
odin_well this is the issue... I do not know the commercials on future OneNAND use22:27
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microlithwhy am I typing on my N900 when I can use a real keyboard22:27
odin_are we going to get mode for less money ?  is it likely the next device(s) will use OneNAND, is it here to stay etc...22:27
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microlithOneNAND is here to stay, I suspect22:27
odin_if the next device in 2 years will have a 2Gb OneNAND for the same price point then there is no problem staying as-is22:28
Kurppa_A big priority of a big company is to push production costs down. I guess only future will tell though :-)22:28
MohammadAGhow do I patch a folder (with files and subdirectories) from a .diff file?22:28
microlithodin_: well, the solution for that will be decided in MeeGo22:28
odin_if the next device is also going to have a 256Mb OneNAND because of price/problems/whatever then a solution to the rootfs needs to be found22:28
ShadowJKthe solution is ./configure --prefix=/opt/maemo ;D22:29
microlithI suspect the next defvice will have at least 512M22:29
odin_no I've looked at that22:29
odin_its too costly to maintain from my PoV, I want a regular Unix system single main rootfs logical view22:29
Kurppa_There is still the problem of that 2GB partition. It's too small.22:29
RST38hSteve Jobs and Eric Schmidt Spotted Together Again !22:29
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odin_I'm not going to spend hours doing "optification" for no net benifit22:29
odin_Im sure others will spend that time22:30
microlithodin_: optification is as easy as ShadowJK just said22:30
ShadowJKodin_, you know things like *BSD don't put user installed packages in /usr/*? It's a linuxism really :)22:30
RST38hodin: optification takes <30-40 mins22:30
lcukif only!22:30
RST38hodin: even less if you want to be messy about it22:30
asjinteresting, the OneNAND part I pulled up is listed at "one year retention" after 100k prog/erase cycles22:30
odin_how are you optifying locale's ?22:30
microlithconsider that no other devices have to deal with this issue22:30
asjglad it has error correction built in22:30
ShadowJKmicrolith, uh, they just have "ran out of space :(" instead of "do this to not run out of space"22:31
* lcuk raises a glass to maemo22:31
Kurppa_lcuk: cheers.22:31
* microlith hopes PR1.2 resolves the annoying CPU eating behavior of the background services22:32
Kurppa_Or MeeGo, as they will probably call it.22:32
ShadowJKlol :D22:32
ShadowJKMeeGo instance :)22:32
lcukwhos seen the latest indiana jones movie22:33
microlithugh, don't remind me22:33
lcukand without teasers, is it any good22:33
dotblanklcuk, there are only 3 of them22:33
lcukthe "new" one22:33
Kurppa_I would say it's no good.22:33
ShadowJKAs it is now, you just have to try download something while trying to browse the web.. emmc does not like more than one app accessing it :)22:33
dotblanklcuk, What no one..22:33
dotblanknew one*22:33
Kurppa_Just my subjective opinion.22:33
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odin_why is /usr on OneNAND, really it seems that /tmp /var and such should be there, i.e. putting packages into /usr isn't really the issue22:33
lcuki dunno22:33
lcuktracy has dvd downstairs and we are watching soon22:34
ShadowJKAnd stuff that uses databases is also pretty slow.. It takes something like a second for gpodder to sync its database due to the slow I/O :/22:34
lcuki just want to know if its as good as old ones22:34
Kurppa_ShadowJK: there will be a fix to that. :-)22:34
dotblankIt isnt no indiana jone's I ever heard of22:34
Kurppa_Download I mean.22:34
odin_I must confess I am certainly not at fan of Sun's way, which I guess maybe like BSDs way22:34
lcukShadowJK, i tried doing database work22:34
lcukand got a massive sketch db created22:34
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dotblankdid someone get jack to work?22:34
lcukbut over a threshhold it lost its fluidity22:34
ShadowJKBasically a 4K write on emmc is as costly as a 256k write.. And a database update is a bunch of small writes all over the place..22:35
ShadowJKand while it's doing those writes all reads are blocked..22:35
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lcukShadowJK, ok22:35
ShadowJK(and I assume no filesystem overhead here, which there's tons of)22:36
lcukso if there was a database planned around that sort of limitation22:36
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lcukcould it be fast22:36
Kurppa_Sounds really slow.22:36
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ShadowJKlcuk, yes22:36
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lcukso how would you spec something like that22:36
lcukand is sqlite or similar able to have this engine underneath22:36
ShadowJKJust make it one big journal22:36
ShadowJKdoubt it22:36
lcukim thinking about a regular front end22:36
lcukand a speedy backend22:36
lcukfor compatability22:37
ShadowJKThe "real solution" would be a filesystem aware of the special properties of emmc22:37
odin_anyhow, what is the answer to optification of locale files ?  death by 100 sym-links ?22:37
ShadowJKodin_, iirc entire locale directory gets optified in PR1.2.. but that's just a "rumor" I heard :)22:38
Kurppa_Let's hope the next Maemo version will be designed for that. I know it is now too late for Maemo 5 at least :-)22:38
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lcukbut whoever said up there about speed is likely right22:38
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lcukarent the locales ok to stay where they are22:38
lcukthey are relatively small, required to be fast22:39
lcuki know theres a lot of them22:39
odin_in /usr/share/locale/en_GB/LC_MESSAGES/foobar.mo22:39
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ShadowJKnilfs2 is really speedy on my sheevaplug's attached USB flash drives.. does my "copy 2 gigs of squid spool" test in 16 minutes.. btrfs 46 minutes, ext2/ext3 110 minutes22:39
odin_making them optional would help, i.e. apt/dpkg doesn't seem to support that concept to say my system doesn't need certain locale because I disabled all by the language I want22:40
ShadowJKunfortunately nilfs2 also generates huge amounts of read/write that makes it unsuitable for production use on flash storage imo22:40
odin_what does BSD do with locale then ?22:40
odin_is it glibc based too isn't it ?  or is that just one flavor22:41
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ShadowJKodin_, so on NetBSD everything user installed beyond the base system goes into /usr/pkg22:42
ShadowJKSo presumable locale would end up in /usr/pkg/share/locale22:42
ShadowJKand the binary in /usr/pkg/bin22:42
odin_you mean /usr/pkg is an alternate root like --prefix in GNU autoconf22:42
odin_ok this I alread been doing as /opt/maemo/share/... eetc...22:43
jannegShadowJK: have you tried ext4? that was around factor 5 faster handling gentoo's portage tree. on a traditionell hdd though22:43
ShadowJKjanneg, yeah it was only twice as slow as nilfs2 ;)22:43
ShadowJK30 minutes or so iirc..22:44
jannegfaster sa btrfs22:44
ShadowJKyeah it was faster than btrfs22:44
ShadowJKand I even had btrfs' ssd mode on.. not that it made any difference :P22:44
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odin_ok I have a debhelper- to fix it for optification purpose in maemo22:45
cpasjustesomeone to take my n64 work to continue ?22:46
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odin_so I also do a diff for debhelper-7.0.15 which was requested then it needs to get into the SDK repo I believe to be any use to anyone22:50
DocScrutinizer51microlith: odin_: Kurppa_: oneNAND is a part of the OMAP SoC aiui. This is very unlikely to change, as TI had to produce a customized SoC for Nokia22:50
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ShadowJKI thought the RAM and onenand was in same PoP ontop of omap3 soc22:51
odin_DocScrutinizer51, yes understood on that, my question was over the future.. as in is it getting cheaper? how fast?  how long to double size?  how long to be 4Gb which is large enough for a flat rootfs layout22:51
DocScrutinizer51that's what I say22:51
SpeedEvilShadowJK, the onenand is soldered onto the omap - which also has solme internal Ram and flash22:52
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SpeedEvilor I may be misreading stuff22:52
odin_why is swap space on eMMC when OneNAND has massive speed and erase potential ?22:52
ShadowJKiirc beagle has/had same 256ram/256nand configuration too22:53
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ShadowJKodin_, linux doesn't know how to swap on nand22:53
DocScrutinizer51odin_: you,re more likely to see a system booting from eMMC, rather than 2GB nand22:53
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Kurppa_OneNAND was too small to house wwap space anyway.22:53
odin_well there is also the issue of 1Gb swap in N900 configuration and OneNAND total size22:53
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ShadowJKWell, there's a driver that emulates emmc ontop of nand, but the end result is something even slower than the emmc :)22:53
ShadowJKI had this idea for a loop driver to run ontop of emmc to make swap faster.. but alas I'm no kernel coder :)22:54
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* SpeedEvil ponders going to sleep.22:55
Kurppa_I'll do the same. Night folks :-)22:55
odin_is it midnight there?  gnite those off22:56
DocScrutinizer51basically /boot should be a partiton on Nand and be mounted to / on eMMC22:56
odin_well yes the whole boot loader and the resources I agree but for N900 24Mb should give it plenty22:57
odin_how much space on /var and /tmp do you need at runtime?22:57
ShadowJKdepends on whether you have extras-devel enabled or not :D22:57
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odin_nice and scalable engineering22:58
ShadowJKWe didn't even have optification in maemo4 :)22:58
* ShadowJK didn't run out of space on / either22:58
RST38hbut we did have data-on-mmc22:58
ShadowJKso I dunno what you guys are doing ;)22:59
ShadowJKRST38h, yeah, but ~ was still on nand too22:59
ShadowJKnow /home is on emmc22:59
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odin_so 128Mb for writable parts of the FS /var /tmp etc... that leaves 104Mb of OneNAND to use for rootfs journal / performance read-cache from rootfs backed pages23:02
odin_I believe EXT3/4 outsource their journal support, so its possible to write a journal specific device driver, such as a journal to OneNAND or UBIFS partition23:03
ShadowJKI'd want to experiment with putting a gigantic ext3/ext4 journal on emmc.. and unwind it when device is idle..23:04
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ShadowJKthe journal due to its very nature should operate shitloads faster on emmc than the actual filesystem itself :-)23:04
ShadowJKSo you'd want it reversed... if the sizes of the devices were reversed too, of course :(23:05
odin_why gigantic ? ext3 is designed to cope with a lot of dirty block on journal but not yet flushed?23:05
c-s-b-n900wl1251: ERROR Power save entry failed, giving up23:06
odin_I dont understand you logic, to me you want your journal read/write speed to be fast and you want it on media which can take the erase battering over the lifetime of the device23:06
c-s-b-n900this is a pain...23:06
MiXu-anyone installed the crash reporter?23:06
MiXu-it's complaining about missing packages23:06
odin_you want journal read/write fast because all data updates are pushed through it, you also want something to cancel out redundant journal updates when its flushed23:07
odin_and there is no pressure to flush it fast unless you are running out of journal room23:07
ShadowJKodin_, I want the journal to be big because writing to journal is (presumably) entirely sequential, which is fast on emmc23:07
odin_MiXu-, yes I have crash reporter installed, what is hte missing packages?23:07
odin_ShadowJK, only if you write out 256MB at a time, but OneNAND granduality is much smaller isn't it ?23:08
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odin_ShadowJK, presumable solid state does not care for random or sequential writes the issue is the page blockage the lack of pipeline23:08
ShadowJKIt does care23:09
odin_opps yes my magnitude a little off there well corrected23:09
MiXu-odin: libhildon1, libosso1, and a few others23:09
ShadowJKBasically on emmc, a random 4k write gets translated by the emmc internally to a 256k read-modify-erase-write cycle23:09
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odin_so you are going to hold onto 256Kb of dirty data in memory to optimised the write to journal... but we want it in persistent storage ASAP.. so the data is safe23:09
odin_MiXu-, which version of crash reporter are you trying to install ?  what is your N900 software version ?23:10
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ShadowJKIt's the "erase" function which has 256k granularity, writing onto an erased block can usually be done in 4k chunks23:10
ShadowJKSo doing several 4k writes sequentially is much faster than 4k random writes23:11
odin_ShadowJK, yes and OneNAND page granduality is much smaller, in the order of 4Kb is it not (been a few months since I looked)23:11
MiXu-odin_: I have PR1.1.1 and the reporter is 1.29-0m523:11
ShadowJKWell you have the same erase size granularity, I'd think, but you can manage it directly yourself23:11
ShadowJKAnd take advantage of half-erased blocks, etc23:11
odin_ShadowJK, I thought page grandulaity was a hardware limitation, large pages in eMCC and small in OneNAND by hardware design23:11
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ShadowJKWell the FTL part of emmc effectively makes it 256k for everything23:12
odin_MiXu-, I have 1.27+0m5 installed myself can you not go back a version, its possible internal nokia guys have released a crash reporter for PR1.1.2 since it is a development repo after all23:12
ShadowJKBut with onenand you don't have a braindead FTL, the FTL is in the kernel, and in the case of ubifs, it's very clever23:13
ShadowJKYou know those awesome Intel X-25M SSD drives?23:13
odin_MiXu-, "apt-get install crash-reporter=1.27+0m5"  I think23:13
ShadowJKThey have an ARM processor in it, and some 64megs of RAM to do the "clever" stuff that makes random writes fast and not stutter :)23:14
odin_X-25M nope23:14
ShadowJKand the ram isn't for caching23:14
odin_well it sounds good but no use for the mobile market23:14
ShadowJKIt's easiest if you think of flash as a tape recorder when you write to it, and as RAM when you read from it ;p23:15
odin_but I still don't get your big ext journal to eMMC, the file system isn't designed for huge journals and putting the write page wear on eMMC is just one thing that needs to be aboived?23:15
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ShadowJKwrite wear is overrated I think23:16
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odin_eMMC = slow performance read/write, big granularity, low max write/erase per segment23:16
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odin_OneNAND = fast performance read/write, fine/small granularity, high max write/erase per segment23:17
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MiXu-odin_: it worked. thanks :)23:17
odin_no contest where an ext3/ext4 journal should go23:17
ShadowJKThe way I've abused my flash drives.. if wear was an actual concern they'd be dead by now :)23:17
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ShadowJKconstant 3megabytes/sec write for ~2 months now, still alive :P23:18
odin_Im supprised they are not like slow dynamic RAM, needing a "refresh" within some many days/months to stay alive23:18
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ml-mobileflash is getting to that point23:19
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odin_does linux kernel have any logic to optimize journal playback? for example, data blocks that have been overwritten multiple times23:19
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ShadowJKnot sure :)23:19
odin_would show up in an uncommitted journal.. we only want perform a single write at the end, and optimize out the previous ones23:20
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ShadowJKodin_, the idea about having big journal is that when you use the device, writes go to journal sequentially, which makes it fast and low-latency.. then when it's idle it could play back the journal and do all the slow high-latency random writes :)23:20
odin_what I'm trying to get at is OneNAND is ideal for that, to take the hits reducing the load on the eMMC all the kernel needs to track is the device/block of the dirty data in the journal23:21
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odin_well take the example of a "directory" or "inode" page, this must get hit multiple times as a normal file grows23:21
ShadowJKunder heavy random write load I've seen emmc take 500msec PER REQUEST, the user complains about "choppy" graphics on screen, then the I/O queue grows to some 10 seconds in length and the user complains the device hangs :)23:21
odin_so does Linux kernel already optimize out the multiple writes to the same sector(s) or merge them into 256Kb page chunks possible with scatter-gather scheme to fire to eMMC23:22
odin_ok thats a kernel IO scheduling issue23:22
odin_what is the read performance issue from eMMC, does a 1Kb read happen any faster than a 64Kb read ?23:24
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ShadowJKyou'd want to try teach the kernel that a 4k write request is as costly as a 256k write request, or almost as costly as 64 4k writes in a row.. and for it to scale the length of it's i/o queue based on maximum time instead..23:24
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odin_yes you can in the IO scheduler, its pluggable the strategy, it also deals with reordering and regrouping IO requests23:25
ShadowJKI think it's slightly faster23:25
ShadowJKmmc command overhead becomes the main factor which makes small reads slower than big reads23:25
odin_so it can make the same IO request within the same 256Kb chunk be groups together23:25
ShadowJKit's still 4 orders of magnitude faster than writing, of course :)23:25
odin_even if they were submitted to the IO subsystem out-of-order with request in between23:25
odin_ok so there is no real issue with 4Kb reads from eMMC for the purpose of page-faults ?23:26
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ShadowJKthe nilfs2 filesystem is a "Log structured" filesystem.. it just writes the log of stuff that happens... so it's written sequentially.. almost like a tape drive.. that's why it's so fast in my test.. and since random reads don't suffer too much on emmc, it's even fast for reading it back too..23:27
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ShadowJKin "normal" benchmarks it excells on write performance on harddrives too, but falls flat down when it comes time to read :)23:27
odin_or maybe some applications like X11 server and other important system components can be aliased in OneNAND23:27
GAN900What was Nokia thinking with that stupid location selection dialog23:27
GAN900So confusing23:27
ShadowJKYes, as long as there are no outstanding writes blocking the queue, page-faulting from emmc is just happy happy joy joy23:28
ShadowJKI'd like to see a dedicated emmc for OS or swap for this reason :)23:28
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ShadowJKIt might mean the removal of microsd slot though..23:28
odin_well reads are usually given priority over writes, because everything blocks when a read blocks but a write is usually buffer cache being flushed async23:28
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ShadowJKyeah.. though once you've been feeding writes to the emmc for awhile, they start taking .5 sec each, so even if you prioritize reads you still have awful latency23:29
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DocScrutinizer51ShadowJK: the FTL doesn,t know of such thing like "half-empty blocks", at least not for non-fat fs23:29
odin_I don't get that metric, after a while, 500ms per write23:29
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, I was referring to ubi(fs) there23:29
DocScrutinizer51ooh k23:30
odin_I can understand the silicon FTL is it, it doing extra/other work around our I/O23:30
odin_is this what you are claiming23:31
ShadowJKodin_, dunno what casuses it, but the svctm value in iostat grows to about 500 or so after awhile :)23:31
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ShadowJKand await to 500023:31
ShadowJKunder heavy io23:31
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odin_but thats not the case we're trying to optimize23:31
odin_heavy io is "heavy io", journal is full, data is being pushed out and causing back pressure to block writes at the application23:32
ShadowJKAnyway, for me the solution is called LogFS :)23:32
ShadowJKand in case logfs turns out to be crap, nilfs2 :D23:32
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ShadowJK <- talk by logfs author on the nature of flash and logfs' garbage collection algorithm :)23:33
odin_the main case is normal usage patterns, bootup, background stuff going on, system idling and then being used for a short time and so on23:33
ShadowJKit's a good presentation :)23:33
lcukcan someone confirm, does it really take >2 mins for a crackberry to boot?23:34
lcukor isthat just older ones23:35
DocScrutinizer51~weather EDDN23:35
odin_but you seems to be solving some kind of write issue ?  and I don't see that being so important for a mobile device, it is important for loading up maybe via USB or internet with content but this is not a often used case, unlike say a database server23:35
odin_~seen me23:35
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ShadowJKodin_, well loading up via usb is pretty minimal load23:35
ShadowJKodin_, the biggest annoyances come from database loads ;)23:36
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ShadowJKand there are a ton of them23:36
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DocScrutinizer51~weather EDDN23:36
infobotNuernberg, Germany; (EDDN) 49-30N 011-03E 318M; last updated: 2010.03.26 2120 UTC; Dew Point: 41 F (5 C); Pressure (altimeter): 29.83 in. Hg (1010 hPa); Relative Humidity: 87%; Sky conditions: overcast; Temperature: 44 F (7 C); Visibility: greater than 7 mile(s); Weather: Light rain; Wind: from the W (260 degrees) at 12 MPH (10 KT)23:36
ShadowJKmedia player/tracker, gpodder, conversations, email... some of the things I use :)23:36
DocScrutinizer51that's bitter23:36
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ShadowJKlike I said earlier, deleting a file in gpodder is a 1.5 sec operation due to the database update :)23:37
DrGrovGood evening23:37
odin_ShadowJK, but that is a software issue, for expecting "Winchester disk performance" metric, 512byte sectors, seek time, an IO queue23:37
ShadowJKIt's not even writing that much, about 1600 bytes..23:37
odin_ShadowJK, solvable by using a journal based file format on top of a general purpose FS23:37
ShadowJKthe fdatasync() takes the most time :)23:38
lcukdoes it take 1..5 seconds to just delete a file?23:38
lcukor a few23:38
ShadowJKone point five23:38
odin_ShadowJK, I think that is one issue ext4 tried to address, but another issue is do you really need to use fdatasync() ?23:38
ShadowJKplus minus point five ;D23:38
lcukwhat, every file takes 1.5s?23:38
DrGrovI managed to figure out one cool thing today23:39
ShadowJKlcuk, i think mass delete is somewhat faster23:39
lcukim on about a specific file23:39
lcukor something23:39
ShadowJKselecting 5 files for download, between tapping download and the UI responding again is like 5 seconds23:39
ShadowJKodin_, i'm glad there was fdatasync there, gpodder db survived crash :)23:40
lcukor to rename files23:40
lcukor something23:40
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ShadowJKlcuk, it's slow because gpodder updates its own database to remove the file23:41
odin_ShadowJK, ah I remember now the issue with fdatasync() was block allocation on ext323:41
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ShadowJKodin_, i think it translates into sync() ;)23:41
odin_ShadowJK, if a database pre-allocated new pages for data in the file, then the fdatasync() is faster since there is no requirement to find a new block to allocate23:41
lcukof course it does shadow23:41
lcuki wonder just whats happening23:41
lcukcos dont most databases not fold up the space23:42
lcukwhen you delete records23:42
odin_ShadowJK, this is a software design issue that can be fixed/improved by extending the file length when the system is more idle23:42
DrGrovI found some extra themes in some other repository, not any of the default ones. How can I access this repo and download the themes?23:42
DrGrovOr add it somehow into the repo list?23:42
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ShadowJKodin_, ok, next issue, when downloading files from internet there's increased latency using apps ;)23:43
odin_ShadowJK, over wireless or 3G/GSM/GPRS ?23:43
ShadowJKthe page faults take longer to complete from emmc, swap is slower, etc :/23:43
DocScrutinizer51DrGrov: add the repo to HAM catalogs23:43
SpeedEvilor when the tracker runs23:43
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ShadowJKodin_, HSPA 5Mbit/s23:43
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DrGrovDocScrutinizer51: aha, so how exactly do I know how to add it?23:43
DrGrovDocScrutinizer51: HAM catalogs you mean in the Package Manager?23:44
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DrGrovDocScrutinizer51: ok, so I can manually put other repos there? Oh, I didn't know that. Thanks :)23:44
odin_ShadowJK, when you say downloading... do you mean browsing or saving a file to eMMC ?23:44
ShadowJKsaving files23:44
iBobis w51-1 (PR1.1) the latest firmware update ?23:44
odin_ShadowJK, does the download rate exceed the eMMC max-write speed rate ?23:44
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DrGrovDocScrutinizer51: so, can I then later on remove it so it doesn't interfer with the default repos?23:46
iBoband is nokia going to keep providing updates after the release meego?23:46
DocScrutinizer51DrGrov: depending on how well the site is done, klicking a link on a website might suffice to add repo and install app23:46
odin_what IO scheduler is in use in the stock kernel ?  how does it manage the priority of a page-fault-in verses the download disk-write-out23:46
DocScrutinizer51DrGrov: yes23:46
DrGrovDocScrutinizer51: so I can go to that webpage as well and install from there?23:47
odin_certainly under my scheme all writes to eMMC from the ext3 journal now on the OneNAND would be 256Kb wide, which would achieve maximum write performance ?23:47
pwnguinman. i really need my banshee generated playlist =(23:47
DocScrutinizer51DrGrov: depends23:47
DrGrovDocScrutinizer51: now just the problem I can't install the damn theme. Can't find it in and the downloads section23:47
odin_but there is still a priority allocated in the kernel paging system and IO system there may even be things to tweak on that23:48
DocScrutinizer51DrGrov: hmm, I can't find it either :-P23:49
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odin_where are you writing too ?  VFAT /home/user/MyDocs ?23:50
DrGrovDocScrutinizer51: damn! :)23:50
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DrGrovDocScrutinizer51: nah, I will get it some other day. I have the default Nseries blue which is absolutely beautiful23:50
DocScrutinizer51damn theme: not found23:51
DrGrovDocScrutinizer51: lol23:51
iBobtheres this update called maemo 5 3.2010.02-823:51
ShadowJKodin_, yes23:51
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iBobis this an upgrade for the OS ?23:52
odin_of course the issue with my scheme is that it only affects ext3 performance, so VFAT is not affected.. however if I go back to my original intent for OneNAND to be a cache, there is no reason not to journal the entire eMMC over UBIFS partition but provide an specific interface for ext3 usage as well23:52
iBobi already installed Maemo 5/PR1.1 , do i need to installed this one also ?23:52
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odin_FWIW there would be no need for UBIFS compression support since that is not a goal here, mainly to nick the page write counters23:54
lcukiBob, that update 3.2010.02-8 is a minor update to prepare for ovi store stuff afaik.23:55
lcukits not the pr1.2 you may have heard about more recently23:55
lcukits 1.1.123:55
iBobi have not heard if the pr1.223:56
lcukwell thats all good then :p23:56
iBobi've read some stuff that seem to hint that nokia isnt going to be providing updates23:56
iBobbecause of the deleopment of meego23:56
lcuk(i only mentioned it because this last week the pr1.2 sdk was released, but its not a flashable image)23:56
lcukwell :) the hints are wrong23:57
DocScrutinizer51iBob: that's nonsense23:57
lcuktheres fully documented lists around of the massive number of fixes and changes in the pr1.2 :)23:57
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tremnite all, sweet dreams23:57
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