IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2010-03-27

user_	hi people	00:00
DocScrutinizer51	user_: hi. Any more intelectual stuff to contribute?	00:00
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iBob	i keep reading stuff regarding disabling the unstable testing repos. after installing software from them	00:01
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iBob	its safe to keep them if i dont apt-get upgrade, right?	00:01
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odin_	well it makes sense to release the 1.2 SDK earlier than the N900 images, due to the breaking ABI changes for Qt	00:02
ShadowJK	Well they'd also give you upgrades to software you've already installed, untested upgrades :)	00:02
adalal	hey, anyone know how to get the gps on the n900 to transfer data over bluetooth serial?	00:02
ShadowJK	and it eats diskspace just to have them enabled	00:02
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Corsac	adalal: I think using mini-gpsd should do the trick	00:02
odin_	I can only support this action, so by the time the flashable image is ready there is a change all the application space is too	00:02
user_	i need an information	00:02
lcuk	does that happen	00:02
lcuk	ShadowJK,	00:02
lcuk	if i install app from extras	00:03
lcuk	then enable -devel	00:03
iBob	ShadowJK : i gui package manger shows all the updates but i install them one by one.	00:03
lcuk	and theres a newer/unstable version in -devel	00:03
lcuk	does it offer an upgrade?	00:03
user_	do u know when can we get the PR1.2 update???	00:03
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iBob	the=i*	00:03
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Corsac	user_: when it's ready is the more appropriate answer	00:03
iBob	user_ : when its released.	00:04
user_	yes but when :(	00:04
adalal	Corsac: oh right	00:04
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iBob	user_ : http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=42285	00:05
user_	one more question.... a java me gui for fremantle???	00:05
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user_	valid java me i mean not microemu or demos versions	00:05
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c-s-b-n900	hello docscrutinizer	00:07
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adalal	Corsac: it has missing depencies (bluez-util-test and python2.5-gnome)	00:09
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Corsac	adalal: I have to admit I didn't tested it myself, it was just a random idea	00:10
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adalal	right, can gpsd be transferred over bluetooth?	00:10
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ma3mo	people... one more question... will be possible to add 3g videocall features in the n900? maybe in future? what do you think boput it???	00:10
Corsac	ma3mo: I think it's in PR1.2	00:11
ShadowJK	I doubt it	00:11
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ShadowJK	I think 1.2 will have Google Talk video calls, and that'll be it :P	00:12
ma3mo	corsac its voip call that	00:12
iBob	fuck it, we dont even have such a service here , hehe	00:12
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ma3mo	yes gtalk and more videocall plugins for these servers	00:12
ShadowJK	3G anything is a big task, because 3g is almost everything that internet does, except it's all different and doesn't work on anything else or anywhere else... lots of effort and code to write from scratch	00:12
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iBob	i'd say they should work on getting the menus a smooth as possible	00:13
iBob	not as good as the iphone , but as good as possible :P	00:14
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ma3mo	ok..... no 3g calls... java support??? when???	00:15
* lbt wonders why fremantle doesn't use ntp...		00:15
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DocScrutinizer51	that'd imply "good" being an absolute metric	00:15
ShadowJK	3g voice calls, sure :)	00:15
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Corsac	ShadowJK: I already tried jabber calls, and it worked fine, though video failed	00:15
Corsac	(on 1.1)	00:15
ShadowJK	I doubt anyone will do 3g video calls	00:15
ShadowJK	and java will probably never have a user friendly solution...	00:16
Corsac	ShadowJK: why not?	00:16
ShadowJK	that'd require giving Sun.. err... Oracle lots of money	00:16
ma3mo	what a shame of phone	00:16
Corsac	(if the carrier allows it)	00:16
DocScrutinizer51	ma3mo: stop trolling	00:16
ma3mo	i have i stuck pixel one bright spot on display	00:16
iBob	ma3mo : respect y	00:17
ShadowJK	Corsac, mostly because it's behind some 5000-page spec from the 3g consortium..	00:17
iBob	yourself*!	00:17
Corsac	ShadowJK: eh?	00:17
Corsac	ShadowJK: I meant jabber video call on 3g network	00:17
ma3mo	sorry what isad???	00:17
Corsac	ShadowJK: were you referring to something else?	00:17
ShadowJK	Corsac, jabber is internet	00:18
ShadowJK	Corsac, I was referring to 3g video calls	00:18
ma3mo	shame couse its a shame device	00:18
ma3mo	i m real not a dreamer	00:18
iBob	ma3mo : would you like some apple pie ?	00:18
Corsac	ShadowJK: 3g usually means data, and inet	00:18
DocScrutinizer51	ma3mo: internal QA rules of Nokia require zero pixel-error screen for N900	00:18
Corsac	ShadowJK: but yeah I'm not sure we'll see operator-only video stuff	00:18
ShadowJK	Corsac, yes but I specifically meant 3g video calls	00:18
ShadowJK	not internet video calls using 3g for internet connectivity.	00:18
Corsac	yeah, sorry	00:18
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DocScrutinizer51	ma3mo: so instead of crying here you should either get a error free device, or be a little more constructive	00:20
DocScrutinizer51	maybe both	00:20
ma3mo	i have 1 dead pixel and one bright spot on lcd... no java... no jre... no 3g calls... no irda ftp between devices... no options to take pictures from frontal camera... this is constructive i m real i m talking about this device	00:20
ma3mo	;)	00:21
iBob	well, i enjoy running aircrack wireshark and lighttpd on my mobile phone	00:21
iBob	still has some bugs? yes. do I give a fuck ? no.	00:21
ShadowJK	ma3mo, java, jre, 3g video calls and irda was never part of the N900 specs :)	00:21
ShadowJK	the n900 doesn't even have the hardware for irda	00:22
ma3mo	it has	00:22
ma3mo	it has irda port	00:22
Myrtti	irda? who the fuck uses irda for anything these days? apart from emulating a Logitech harmony	00:22
ma3mo	disassembly and have a look	00:22
DocScrutinizer	ma3mo: no, you're not constructive. We all know there's no java (or we know why you think there isn't), and we know there's no IrDA	00:22
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ShadowJK	ma3mo, it's not irda	00:22
ma3mo	what is it???	00:22
DocScrutinizer	so wtf should we benefit from your wining	00:22
ShadowJK	ma3mo, it's CIR	00:23
ma3mo	shad what is it	00:23
ma3mo	so???	00:23
ShadowJK	ma3mo, if you disassemble the N900 you'll notice that it has 3 IR emitters :)	00:23
ShadowJK	None of them can do irda	00:23
ma3mo	c??? Infra Red??	00:23
iBob	ma3mo has to be one of those windows mobile users!	00:23
DocScrutinizer	ma3mo: and no, it has NO irda port	00:23
ma3mo	noooo	00:23
ma3mo	i was symbian	00:23
iBob	we dont need an irda port!	00:23
ma3mo	wm too	00:23
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ShadowJK	ma3mo, one of the emitters at the top can be used to send signals that control televisions and such... with the right apps installed	00:24
iBob	i wana see you guys port wireshark to wm :P	00:24
Kegetys	I wonder if the proximity sensor could be used to receive IR as well :P	00:24
Myrtti	I wana see you guys spit out uncut diamonds at my command	00:24
Myrtti	plz?	00:24
ma3mo	ummmm	00:25
ma3mo	ok	00:25
ma3mo	got it	00:25
DocScrutinizer	Kegetys: too slow probably	00:25
ma3mo	but java????	00:25
ShadowJK	ma3mo, did you see java support listed on the box?	00:25
ShadowJK	ma3mo, or in the specs?	00:25
ma3mo	nooo i want java :)	00:25
ma3mo	but i see umts	00:26
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DocScrutinizer	ma3mo: if you need java, go and start a project to port it. I mean that's LINUX! you know that OS don't ya?	00:26
iBob	ma3mo : are you sure you dont want some pie ?	00:26
ma3mo	???? they havre to write umts signal	00:26
iBob	lol	00:27
ShadowJK	ma3mo, it does	00:27
DocScrutinizer	ma3mo: please stop acting like a troll	00:27
ma3mo	i dont want appleeeeeeeeeee i get it couse it was with qwerty etc	00:27
iBob	DocScrutinizer : you want him to port java ?	00:27
iBob	suggest that he reads the specs next time.	00:27
DocScrutinizer	nah, not really	00:27
Shapeshifter	oh noes java.	00:28
ma3mo	be real i spent 600 euros for a brick hahahaha	00:28
iBob	DocScrutinizer : no, its ok- he can try. :P	00:28
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iBob	ma3mo : is that in any way our problem ? :P	00:28
Shapeshifter	ma3mo: you DID read the feature list before buying it, right?	00:28
* DocScrutinizer throws a real brick in ma3mo general direction		00:29
ma3mo	i diiiiiid	00:29
ma3mo	i love this device	00:29
iBob	ok then,	00:29
iBob	have a nice day,	00:29
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ds3	Wow... disabling 3G makes a major difference in battery life	00:29
DocScrutinizer	stop trolling	00:29
ma3mo	but it has stupid things inside	00:29
Shapeshifter	ma3mo: and it said "java" and "irda ftp betweent devices" (whatever that exactly is supposed to be)?	00:29
Myrtti	there's plenty of people ready to buy it off your hands if you're not satisfied with it	00:29
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DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: he means obex push	00:30
ma3mo	okkk i stop to troll... can u send me a valid link for java???	00:30
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ds3	anyone remember some of the old bandwidth on demand technologies used with ISDN?	00:30
Myrtti	ma3mo: so when are you going to stop trolling exactly?	00:30
ma3mo	now	00:31
Shapeshifter	ma3mo: java.sun.com?	00:31
Myrtti	coz I didn't see you stop	00:31
ShadowJK	ds3, 3g is bad for IM and such :)	00:31
ma3mo	valid java app for fremantle i mean	00:31
DocScrutinizer	ignore or kick? elections are open	00:31
ShadowJK	There are actually some threads on the forums where people have installed java..	00:31
ds3	ShadowJK: right...	00:31
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ShadowJK	ds3, it's all about the wake ups :)	00:31
Myrtti	DocScrutinizer: aw, but he's so much fun	00:32
ds3	back then, there was ISDN routers that would use the D channesl to main a min. presence then when bandwidth demand goes up, it would add B channels	00:32
DocScrutinizer	k	00:32
ds3	why can't we default to 2.5G/2.0G and switch to 3G as bandwidth demand increases automatically?	00:32
ma3mo	not with microemulator. if i m here its couse i yet read all bout that. i hate microemu is just a demo	00:32
ShadowJK	ds3, I saw some script announced on t.m.o. that promised automatic switch between 2g and 3g :)	00:32
ds3	oooh	00:33
* Arif_ sneezes		00:33
ds3	2.5G actually makes the device usable (from a battery life standpoint)	00:33
ml-mobile	doesn't flipping between 2.XG and 3.XG kill connections?	00:33
Arif_	2.5G is too slow ={	00:33
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DocScrutinizer	ds3: probably mainly because there's no crystal ball to tell future bandwidth demand	00:34
ma3mo	some help???	00:34
Shapeshifter	my provider doesn't even do 2.5G :(	00:34
Shapeshifter	only 2,3 and 3.5	00:34
ds3	DocScrutinizer: that's the same issue with the ISDN stuff and it mostly worked	00:34
* ml-mobile is on 2.5G all the time, damned AT&T		00:34
Arif_	get TMobile!	00:34
ds3	depends on what you are used to... the N800 + tetered 2.5G phone was find for my use so...	00:35
ShadowJK	I don't notice any difference in browsing speed between edge and 3g	00:35
DocScrutinizer	ds3: ISDN connection establishing ois 10 times as fast as a band switch for cellular	00:35
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DocScrutinizer	maybe 100 times as fast	00:35
Myrtti	wohey	00:35
ds3	DocScrutinizer: oh..DOH	00:35
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DocScrutinizer	I mean, while you're at GPRS you don't keep a list of valid UMTS basestations even	00:37
DocScrutinizer	ther's no defined roaming between GSM and UMTS afaik	00:38
ds3	Oh... somehow I thought they were the same stations...akin to how EDGE and GPRS is	00:38
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ShadowJK	I think in dual mode it keeps track of both 2g and 3g stations though?	00:39
DocScrutinizer	nah 3G is an entirely new BTS technology, distinct from GSM	00:39
crashanddie_	hey guys, does MfE now actually work with GMail?	00:39
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: I'm not sure but I'd guess no	00:39
ds3	so based on what you are saying... if I am on a voice call in a 3G area and I travel into a 2.5G area, the call drops?	00:39
crashanddie_	that's how blackberries behave	00:40
ShadowJK	DocScrutinizer, I'd guess yes, because roaming between the two isn't up to the handset itself, and when you move from 3g area to 2g-only area your calls and data packets follow you..	00:40
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ds3	oh my	00:40
DocScrutinizer	at least there's no such thing like a cell handover from 2G to 3G	00:40
ShadowJK	Although when 3g was newly introduced here, most handsets acted broken when going from 3g to 2g or vice versa...	00:41
ds3	so 3G is more like a bolting in a second V8 to get a Yugo to go faster w/removing the original Yugo engine?	00:41
crashanddie_	Vodafone told us that we shouldn't use 3G all the time (If you have 4x4 on your SUV, you don't have it activated the whole time?)	00:41
ShadowJK	Nokia blamed the operator, operator blamed nokia, nokia's left hand blamed nokia's right hand (which then said FU i want a divorce, and became nokia siemens networks)...	00:41
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: sounds about right	00:42
DocScrutinizer	there's no handover criterion in 2G for roaming to 3G. figure	00:42
ShadowJK	But I've definitely maintained IP connectivity driving from 3g to 2g to 3g to 2g to 3g...	00:42
ShadowJK	And dozens of times my E70 has borked on that	00:43
ShadowJK	I can't remember my E75 doing that, and I've only had N900 since December so it's a bit early to tell :)	00:43
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DocScrutinizer	well it doesn't work here	00:44
ds3	makes me wonder more and more on how well the 900 would work in really rural areas	00:44
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ShadowJK	I think I'm in "really rural" area :-)	00:44
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DocScrutinizer	ds3: better than in urban areas, as in rural ones there's no 3G at all	00:44
ShadowJK	the 3g is more sensitive than on E75 atleast	00:44
ds3	how does it acquire a signal? or does it just happying bounce around depending on how you hold your phone?	00:45
ShadowJK	I get 3g signal at 10 kilometres distance from base station :-)	00:45
ShadowJK	ds3, dont hold hand near right side, that's where antenna is	00:45
ShadowJK	or "bottom" in portrait mode	00:45
DocScrutinizer	actually bottom right	00:45
DocScrutinizer	yeah	00:45
ShadowJK	if I keep hand there the N900 instantly loses 3g and switches to the 2g station instead (which is at 400 metres distance instead of 10km for 3g)	00:45
DocScrutinizer	same here	00:46
DocScrutinizer	though both 2G and 3G are max 500m away	00:46
ds3	ShadowJK: and what happens when you keep shifting your hands to cover and on cover that area?	00:47
ShadowJK	uncover?	00:47
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ds3	like if you move your hands over and away from that area	00:47
ShadowJK	Well the signal meter goes up and down, and at some point N900 is like "fuck this I'm going back to the stable strong 2g"	00:47
DocScrutinizer	well here the jump to 2G means connectivity loss	00:47
DocScrutinizer	here==my-provider	00:48
ds3	but let's say you are doing a long TCP transfer..does it get killed or you get into TCP retry hell?	00:48
ShadowJK	on my provider it's seamless	00:48
ShadowJK	ds3, there's a few seconds where no data is moved, then data starts flowing again	00:48
ShadowJK	obviously that's just with my operator, DocScrutinizer has different experience with his operator	00:48
DocScrutinizer	that's a setup issue with carrier's network	00:49
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ShadowJK	My operator is pretty famous for disconnecting connections randomly...	00:49
ShadowJK	My other operator has very solid performance in this regard.. I can stay connected for months nonstop	00:50
DocScrutinizer	see, afaik there's no clear spec how to switch 2G/3G. So carriers take assumptions. Modem builders take assumptions	00:50
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DocScrutinizer	sometimes the match, sometimes :-/	00:50
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SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer, open-source modem fw! :)	00:54
DocScrutinizer	it's almost like in the early day of O2 (viag intercom), back when they used T-Mobile (telekom) for gap fillin. You had to relogin with a different PIN whenever you moved from one coverage area to the other	00:55
ShadowJK	wtf :-)	00:56
DocScrutinizer	yeah!!	00:56
ShadowJK	My operator used to be a full virtual operator... on the website you could click a button to pick which network to use :-)	00:56
ShadowJK	it required powercycle of phone..	00:56
DocScrutinizer	hehe. so same shit	00:56
ShadowJK	It was mostly an academical excercise anyway. The two biggest operators have nearly identical geographical coverage	00:57
* noobmonk3y prods frals		00:58
ShadowJK	Though one of them has slightly more solar/wind powered byous out in the sea and thus greater coverage offshore	00:58
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noobmonk3y	~kick Arif_	01:00
* infobot kicks Arif_		01:00
Arif_	~rape noobmonk3y	01:00
* infobot takes noobmonk3y behind the WallMart and makes a few grunts and screams		01:00
* noobmonk3y squeals with joy		01:01
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* DocScrutinizer kicks infobot		01:01
DocScrutinizer	no more toy for the kids	01:02
noobmonk3y	poor old infobot	01:03
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DocScrutinizer	that's all your fault. Told ya "don't mess with infobot" :-P	01:04
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GAN900	Haha	01:10
GAN900	Dumbass Engadget	01:10
DocScrutinizer	?	01:10
GAN900	"Entelligence" my ass.	01:10
microlith	ain't it?	01:10
GAN900	"Mobile Multitasking is Mostly a Myth"	01:10
microlith	except when it's not	01:10
DocScrutinizer	bah	01:10
DocScrutinizer	and margerine is healthy for you	01:11
GAN900	http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/26/entelligence-mobile-multitasking-is-mostly-a-myth/	01:11
microlith	actually the biggest killer on my N900 is the background processes	01:11
DocScrutinizer	and in five years we jave implanted multimedia	01:11
DocScrutinizer	have even	01:12
microlith	mail daemon always lets you know, via crippling cpu usage, that a message has arrived	01:12
DrGrov	where the hell do these Engagdet people get there shit?	01:12
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GAN900	Engadget has gone so far downhill since Block left.	01:12
GAN900	DrGrov, Apple PR department.	01:12
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DrGrov	GAN900: these god damn fuckers	01:12
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DocScrutinizer	whatever they smoke, please do mankind a favour and exinguish it from earth	01:13
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javispedro	ohnoes talk is down	01:17
javispedro	where i'm going to troll now.	01:18
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DocScrutinizer	pfff, raw horsepower of PC makes multitasking more important there than it is on smartphones. AHUH! o.O	01:22
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: how'd you figure?	01:22
DocScrutinizer	;-P	01:22
DocScrutinizer	don't tell me you're actually using tmo	01:23
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javispedro	I read that on tmo	01:23
DocScrutinizer	lol	01:23
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luke-jr	DocScrutinizer: smartphones are almost always PCs	01:31
DocScrutinizer	don't tell me	01:32
corecode_	so how do i write a python daemon for maemo?	01:32
corecode_	where do i look?	01:32
DocScrutinizer	luke-jr: not my words, qiote of Mr Michael Gartenberg	01:33
DocScrutinizer	Multitasking is far more important on the personal computer -- whose windowed UI and raw horsepower make it not just a luxury but a necessity	01:34
DocScrutinizer	BS	01:34
luke-jr	wtf?	01:34
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luke-jr	tbh, I think desktop WMs need to support SIGSTOP on minimized windows in some cases	01:35
luke-jr	eg, browsers	01:35
luke-jr	even if the app itself sends the SIGSTOP	01:35
corecode_	and then do what?	01:35
luke-jr	SIGCONT when it's restored	01:35
corecode_	how is the WM supposed to find out?	01:35
javispedro	DocScrutinizer: you're reading iPhone fan club blogs now?	01:35
corecode_	ah	01:35
luke-jr	corecode_: the same way 'ps' finds out	01:35
ShadowJK	luke-jr, I used to do that with firefox	01:35
corecode_	luke-jr: running as root? :)	01:35
DocScrutinizer	javispedro: GAN900 lured me in	01:36
luke-jr	corecode_: no	01:36
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javispedro	evil GAN.	01:36
luke-jr	ShadowJK: I still do, sometimes	01:36
corecode_	luke-jr: polling the kernel?	01:36
ShadowJK	luke-jr, but then I bought a quad core computer and 8 gigs of ram.. and now it's barely copying with it, so I'm fine..	01:36
luke-jr	corecode_: when you restore a window, or it needs an update, check if it's suspended and SIGCONT it	01:36
luke-jr	ShadowJK: I should do that :)	01:36
corecode_	luke-jr: can always cont it	01:36
corecode_	doesn't hurt	01:36
luke-jr	sure	01:36
* GAN900 cackles		01:37
corecode_	but what's that good for	01:37
ShadowJK	I tried to sigstop things in maemo4, but it kinda didn't work out that well	01:37
* javispedro tends to CLOSE firefox instead of minimizing it... after a long session it gets way too heavy		01:37
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ShadowJK	far more things than just the app itself hung :)	01:37
luke-jr	corecode_: high-multitasking systems w/o the RAM	01:37
corecode_	shouldn't the software just block if there is nothing happening?	01:37
corecode_	stop doesn't swap out the process	01:37
luke-jr	corecode_: unfortunately, I don't think toolkits are that smart	01:37
GAN900	javispedro, Community forum has come screetching to a halt, so I don't have to read anything.	01:37
luke-jr	STOP prevents it from running	01:37
lcuk	~seen jebba	01:38
ShadowJK	corecode_, yeah well, software is so badly written	01:38
SpeedEvil	stop will lead to swapout under memorhy pressure	01:38
corecode_	but what is it doing?	01:38
infobot	jebba <~jebba@Ploegsma.cwx.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 9d 1h 21m 46s ago, saying: 'i'm sick of this shit. anyway, good luck.'.	01:38
corecode_	ShadowJK: sure	01:38
luke-jr	corecode_: polling crap? "just checking" that it has nothing to do?	01:38
corecode_	then it would run at 100%	01:39
corecode_	surely not	01:39
luke-jr	not necessarily	01:39
luke-jr	there's usually a select loop	01:39
javispedro	firefox? collecting garbage	01:39
javispedro	:)	01:39
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ShadowJK	Well, xchat was checking every second or something if there was stuff to do :)	01:40
luke-jr	I totally agree that software should be written better than that	01:40
luke-jr	but occasionally I simply need firefox :(	01:40
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corecode_	ShadowJK: "stuff"?	01:40
luke-jr	certain libraires cough curl cough make it mandatory	01:41
corecode_	the magic of non-multithreaded and non-callback programming	01:41
luke-jr	libcurl won't do timeouts unless you run its curl_process or whatever every N seconds	01:41
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nthx	hi.just want to say hello from n900 and test if xchat works.. c u	01:41
corecode_	can't you run it blocking?	01:42
javispedro	the wonders of not having a proper timing api until this decade.	01:42
SpeedEvil	nthx, it does.	01:42
luke-jr	I submitted a patch to fix it like a year ago, and they were all too worried about it breaking things :/	01:42
corecode_	javispedro: yea, and no upcalls	01:42
luke-jr	corecode_: no. even if you could, blocking prevents other things from going	01:42
javispedro	... now is when you start going down into the wonderful world of threading...	01:43
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luke-jr	threading+blocking makes things so much easier :)	01:43
corecode_	luke-jr: that's when you create a thread	01:44
luke-jr	wish Linux supported some kind of cooperative multithreading tho	01:44
corecode_	yea	01:44
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corecode_	what's that good for?	01:44
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ptl	wow	01:44
luke-jr	avoiding context switching	01:44
ptl	I had a bug storm here	01:44
luke-jr	think 10000 threads	01:44
ptl	everything went down	01:44
ptl	*a big storm	01:44
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corecode_	luke-jr: you still need to switch contexts	01:44
corecode_	luke-jr: just not preemptively	01:45
luke-jr	corecode_: not exactly	01:45
corecode_	of course	01:45
luke-jr	you only switch threads from the main select loop ;)	01:45
luke-jr	and wait until it's done processing whatever and exits back	01:45
luke-jr	then find another thread to run, or wait for data	01:45
corecode_	and that helps how?	01:45
corecode_	except for only running uniprocessor	01:45
luke-jr	when you have 10000 threads, the savings becomes significant	01:45
corecode_	which savings?	01:46
luke-jr	not context switching needlessly	01:46
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corecode_	why would it switch needlessly	01:46
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corecode_	if there is work, it will have to run	01:46
corecode_	if not, it won't be scheduled	01:46
luke-jr	if thread A is running, there is no benefit to switching to thread B sooner than thread A is done	01:46
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luke-jr	why do people write async code?	01:47
luke-jr	if there was no overhead to context switching, everything would be multithreaded blocking	01:48
luke-jr	cooperative multithreading would be the ease of the latter with the performance of the former	01:48
ds3	luke-jr: aren't you describing old windows with the cooperative multitasking?	01:48
luke-jr	ds3: to an extent	01:49
luke-jr	except that was at an OS level	01:49
corecode_	you can do that these days as well	01:49
corecode_	with priorities	01:49
corecode_	and semaphores or whatever	01:49
luke-jr	priorities only go -19 to 20 :p	01:49
corecode_	no, that's nice levels	01:49
ShadowJK	luke-jr, those are nice levels	01:50
ShadowJK	real priorities go from 0-99 iirc	01:50
luke-jr	which is effectively the same thing	01:50
corecode_	...	01:50
luke-jr	0-99 isn't much when you're talking 10000 threads	01:50
corecode_	thanks for making it clear	01:50
corecode_	you don't really have a lot of threading/scheduler experience, do you	01:50
corecode_	as in "wrote it"	01:50
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luke-jr	in the kernel, no	01:50
corecode_	the big savings you get	01:51
corecode_	from coroutines/userland threading	01:51
corecode_	is reduced stack space in the kernel	01:51
corecode_	that's the big difference	01:51
luke-jr	userland app stacks aren't in the kernel, are they? O.o	01:52
corecode_	context switches are not really a big deal	01:52
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ptl	I think that when PR1.2 is out I'll shout at my N900. It's taking too damn long.	01:52
luke-jr	IIRC to create a new thread, the userland needs to allocate memory for the new stack	01:53
ShadowJK	yawm	01:53
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corecode_	no, luke-jr yes, lazily	01:54
corecode_	that was ambiguous now	01:54
luke-jr	wtf?	01:55
corecode_	:)	01:55
corecode_	userland stack is allocated lazily	01:55
luke-jr	...	01:55
corecode_	kernel stack isn't	01:55
javispedro	those stupid operating systems with 1:1 threads...	01:55
javispedro	;)	01:55
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luke-jr	oh, you mean the kernel keeps a local stack for syscalls?	01:55
corecode_	but cooperative multitasking (1:n threading) also needs a userland stack	01:55
corecode_	yes	01:56
luke-jr	that makes sense I suppose	01:56
luke-jr	whatever the benefit tho, I know avoiding the kernel for the multithreading seems to perform much betters	01:56
corecode_	i doubt that	01:56
corecode_	especially not for multi processor systems	01:56
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* luke-jr ponders		01:57
javispedro	with 10000 threads and 2 cores, I can see luke-jr being right	01:57
corecode_	what?	01:57
corecode_	are they all runnable?	01:57
corecode_	or not	01:57
luke-jr	multiprocessor systems are a slightly different scenario	01:57
corecode_	everythign is multiprocessor	01:57
luke-jr	corecode_: they're all runnable at some point	01:57
corecode_	either already or in 2 years	01:57
luke-jr	corecode_: I don't have a single multicore system	01:57
corecode_	that sucks	01:58
corecode_	i guess	01:58
javispedro	corecode_: same reason you mentioned. on single processor it's faster because it's just less overhead and there's not an extra processor to schedule threads to at all, so using entirely userspace threading works.	01:58
luke-jr	runs fine, except for RAM shortages	01:58
corecode_	javispedro: indeed	01:58
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javispedro	corecode_: with 10000 threads and 2 processors I can see the overhead being greater than 50%	01:58
corecode_	javispedro: but with 2 cpus, you can get a (theoretical) speedup	01:58
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javispedro	and the benefits being much smaller than 50%	01:58
ShadowJK	there was this library that did posix threading without kernel :P	01:58
ShadowJK	it didn't work that well	01:58
corecode_	you mean "all unices"?	01:59
corecode_	:D	01:59
* luke-jr ponders if he could abuse setjmp to do a proof of concept		01:59
luke-jr	actually, I already have a semi-POC	01:59
corecode_	luke-jr: yes, that's what all 1:n threading libs use(d)	01:59
javispedro	userspace threads don't need any more proofs of concept :)	01:59
corecode_	yea, that's 90ies tech	01:59
luke-jr	corecode_: really? the spec for setjmp doesn't make that possible :P	01:59
corecode_	wuh?	02:00
corecode_	set/getcontext	02:00
luke-jr	http://gitorious.org/geneticchat	02:00
luke-jr	actually, nm	02:00
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corecode_	since you also need to preserve the fp state etc	02:00
luke-jr	that's fork vs single-thread	02:00
corecode_	javispedro: i can't see which overheads would build up	02:00
corecode_	javispedro: for any reasonable workload	02:01
javispedro	exactly. 10000 is not a reasonable workload IMHO.	02:01
corecode_	well, let's say we have enough ram for the stacks	02:01
javispedro	probably would be i/o boun	02:01
corecode_	i don't know what the application at hand would be	02:02
javispedro	(each task, ie the only reason I can think for having 10000 threads is serving 10000 i/o requests)	02:02
corecode_	a web server?	02:02
corecode_	10000 chat client connections != 10000 ftp data connections	02:02
corecode_	etc.	02:03
corecode_	but event vs threat has been beaten to death	02:03
corecode_	and i'm on the event side as well	02:03
corecode_	although it makes programming more difficult	02:03
corecode_	now i still didn't find out how the suggested way of writing a daemon for maemo is	02:05
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ptl	by 'event' you mean 'select()'?	02:05
corecode_	no	02:05
corecode_	generic term	02:05
corecode_	usually something superior	02:05
corecode_	like kqueue	02:05
corecode_	or the linux equivalent	02:06
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ptl	ok	02:06
corecode_	select is the worst interface	02:06
javispedro	event queues, of which I'm a fan too	02:06
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corecode_	daemon, anyone?	02:07
corecode_	how do you start them, how should they behave?	02:08
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DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: xchat was updating 'meters' every second afaik	02:10
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ShadowJK	DocScrutinizer, and checking dcc timeout	02:11
ShadowJK	even when no dccs active	02:11
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DocScrutinizer	that's realy genius	02:11
corecode_	heh	02:12
javispedro	well	02:12
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javispedro	a few years ago who would have though you'd have things like no_hz	02:12
javispedro	from all the major platforms only palmos did something like that	02:12
corecode_	no	02:12
corecode_	right	02:12
DocScrutinizer	well, as long as you got to wake up every second anyway, it's probably shorter code / less overhead to simply check, rather than to wind a timed alarm	02:13
corecode_	and it makes code much easier	02:13
corecode_	often	02:13
ptl	I didn't even know kqeue	02:13
ptl	*kqueue	02:13
corecode_	ptl: that's a freebsd thing	02:13
corecode_	don't know the linux equiv	02:13
ptl	yes but it seems that at least two linux libraries support it	02:13
javispedro	workqueue?	02:13
ptl	libev and libevent0	02:13
ptl	Alan Cox said you could use epoll instead of kqueue	02:13
corecode_	epoll	02:14
corecode_	yes	02:14
corecode_	that's it	02:14
javispedro	oops, workqueue is something entirely different	02:14
corecode_	so, nobody developing for maemo here?	02:15
corecode_	am i in the wrong channel?	02:15
ptl	not yet.	02:15
ptl	not yet --> me	02:15
ptl	but there is also #maemo-devel	02:15
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corecode_	aha	02:15
ptl	anyway	02:15
ptl	I forced myself not to developer anything but simple shell scripts until I finish my master degree dissertation's fixes.	02:16
ptl	I am too lazy. :(	02:16
ptl	*not to develop anything	02:16
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corecode_	bleh	02:17
corecode_	doesn't work	02:17
corecode_	just means that you're doing less in total	02:17
corecode_	at least for me	02:17
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ptl	?	02:19
SpeedEvil	corecode_, pay him so he doesn't need to continue study!	02:19
SpeedEvil	or her	02:19
corecode_	if i stall life because i need to finish something	02:19
javispedro	a daemon? I'd first ask if you really, really, really need it	02:19
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javispedro	autospawned d-bus service maybe?	02:19
ptl	oh	02:19
ptl	I am too compulsive, corecode_	02:19
ptl	I can't stop once I start programming anything...	02:19
corecode_	javispedro: i want to download a new backdrop every 5/10 minutes	02:20
ptl	been sick a few times recently because of that	02:20
corecode_	heh	02:20
javispedro	alarmd	02:20
corecode_	# alarmd - daemon process that keeps track of current alarms	02:20
corecode_	that one?	02:20
javispedro	yep	02:20
ptl	I've once lost the whole vacations days due to this obsessive behaviour.	02:20
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corecode_	ah, so not just BEEP BEEP alarm?	02:20
javispedro	yep	02:20
corecode_	but also timers	02:20
corecode_	that wasn't clear from that description	02:21
javispedro	for example, the rss app uses it to refresh stuff every 15 min	02:21
ptl	I simply stood at home, programming.	02:21
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corecode_	ptl: you mean you enjoyed hacking	02:21
ds3	what time base is the alarm system running off of?	02:21
corecode_	how can you call that losing vacation?	02:21
ptl	No, I mean I am kidnapped by it.	02:21
ptl	well	02:21
ptl	I did a good code, even upload to a brazilian site similar to sourceforge	02:21
ptl	a few months later, I went too busy and couldn't update the code or the site on which I used it	02:22
Lynoure	ptl: sounds like coding is not something you want to do for living?	02:22
ptl	and then a few further months and I decided to simply close the site.	02:22
corecode_	so?	02:22
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corecode_	natural evolution of code	02:22
ptl	Lynoure: at that time that was what I did. Today, it's not, I am a support sysadmin at IBM. I earn the same money, but get less obsessed about stuff.	02:23
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ptl	I like programming once in a while, for fun.	02:23
corecode_	javispedro: keeping the process around might mean less power used	02:23
ptl	I do not make it an obligation anymore.	02:23
corecode_	javispedro: because python doesn't have to start all the time	02:23
Lynoure	ptl: the fine line between great motivation and unhealthy strain, I guess.	02:24
gouverneur	re	02:24
javispedro	ah, python...	02:24
corecode_	javispedro: yea, i won't code that in C	02:24
ptl	Lynoure: yeah, I think so...	02:24
corecode_	i think there is nothing wrong with hacking for 15 hours in a 24 hour window	02:25
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Lynoure	corecode_: depends on what else one would need to achieve in that 24h window.	02:25
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corecode_	philosophically, nothing	02:25
corecode_	does that make me a nihilist?	02:26
Lynoure	Throw in 8h of job, and other responsibilities, and suddenly that amount of hours can become a problem.	02:26
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Lynoure	corecode_: mostly just blessed, I think	02:26
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corecode_	i used to do that as student	02:26
crashanddie	Lynoure: 8h of work, 15h of hacking, 1h of sleep. Sounds about right.	02:27
corecode_	what	02:27
corecode_	9 hours of sleep	02:27
crashanddie	statistically speaking, people who sleep 9h every night die younger than those who sleep 6h every night	02:27
corecode_	you must have wrong jobs	02:27
Lynoure	crashanddie: Short term, sure :) I'd add in eating and shower, but that's just me :)	02:28
corecode_	crashanddie: yea, i still challenge that study	02:28
crashanddie	I figure if I only sleep 1h per night, I'll live to be 200	02:28
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ptl	lol	02:28
firestorm	mms on the phone is there any 3rd party app for this.	02:28
corecode_	i think they did some wrong selection towards sick/sleeps long	02:28
ptl	firestorm: fMMS	02:29
ptl	firestorm: it's on extras-devel.	02:29
firestorm	ty.	02:29
ptl	yw	02:29
corecode_	javispedro: i can't find info on alarmd	02:29
crashanddie	corecode_: actually, a few months ago I was doing an average of 15-16h of work on a daily basis, weekends included ;)	02:30
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javispedro	http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Using_Generic_Platform_Components/Alarm_Framework	02:30
corecode_	crashanddie: for money or for fun?	02:30
crashanddie	both	02:30
corecode_	i was searching in the api docs :/	02:30
DocScrutinizer	corecode_: believe me, you'll feel like that :-P	02:30
corecode_	crashanddie: that's the best	02:30
crashanddie	indeed it is	02:30
DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: ^^^	02:30
crashanddie	DocScrutinizer: ?	02:31
DocScrutinizer	crashanddie: you'll feel like 200, even while you're just 45	02:31
crashanddie	haha	02:32
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firestorm	pti as in the app manager?	02:32
ptl	corecode_: there's also the API for libalarm, under here: http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/5.0-final/	02:32
ptl	firestorm: yes, you have to add the extras-devel repository	02:32
corecode_	javispedro: how do you even execute the application on startup?	02:33
firestorm	ah n this may sound dumb how lol	02:33
corecode_	ptl: yes, i had a look at that	02:33
javispedro	corecode_: alarmd is persistent	02:33
corecode_	ah, maybe that's not right then	02:34
corecode_	i need some sort of best effort every 5 minutes	02:34
corecode_	or 10	02:34
corecode_	but how do i ever start an application	02:34
javispedro	does it matter? you can set it up for a 5 minute repeating event without waking up the system	02:35
corecode_	ok	02:35
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corecode_	still, i need to set it up	02:36
corecode_	that means i have to run it	02:36
corecode_	or some other application	02:36
corecode_	i mean obviously i could do that in xterm	02:36
javispedro	or at install time, or as part of a cpanel applet, ...	02:36
corecode_	ok	02:37
corecode_	now i just need to find out how to do that in python	02:37
javispedro	cause it should be configurable, so it'll have a gui.	02:37
corecode_	or shell	02:37
corecode_	actually no	02:37
corecode_	the picture i'm loading only appears every 10 minutes	02:37
corecode_	fixed	02:37
* DocScrutinizer points at alarmed app		02:37
corecode_	DocScrutinizer: hum?	02:37
DocScrutinizer	it's python ;-P	02:37
firestorm	ptl: how do i dot hat :p sorry for the dumb questions it's all new to me, or point me to some where	02:37
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DocScrutinizer	maemo's crond	02:38
ptl	firestorm: http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras	02:38
ptl	firestorm: see the bottom of the pages, extras-testing and extras-devel	02:39
firestorm	ty :)	02:39
firestorm	i see it :)	02:39
firestorm	basically a beta... then	02:39
ptl	yep	02:39
firestorm	i can't belive they make a epic phone but don't do mms :S	02:39
ptl	but there are lots and lots of applications. It's like a russian roulette: one of them will break your phone :P	02:39
firestorm	cool we liikw russians :p	02:40
SpeedEvil	none have broken mine so far	02:40
corecode_	i need a python-alam package?	02:40
corecode_	:/	02:40
firestorm	like even	02:40
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firestorm	do you know if they plan to release a mms app for the phone in a later update as that is annoying	02:40
nthx	ptl: or fill rootfs till u have no space left :/	02:41
lcuk	mmm firestorm ?	02:41
ptl	firestorm: if you search for mms on talk.maemo.org you'll see lots and lots of discussion and whining about it.	02:41
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: phototranslate (or similar) seems to break flashlight	02:41
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ptl	firestorm: basically, they did it for technical and practical (i.e. priorities) reasons.	02:41
firestorm	yer seen it before but it's not good enough	02:41
ptl	I mean, they didn't do it.	02:41
corecode_	javispedro: can't be that everybody installing alarms has to write a C program?	02:41
DocScrutinizer	even though it doesn't work on taking photos itself	02:41
firestorm	it's like take a dummy from a baby	02:42
ptl	nthx: yes, that's one of the things that can 'break' your phone	02:42
DocScrutinizer	well, it looks somewhat 'commercial' ;-P	02:42
javispedro	corecode_: DocScrutinizer was telling you that alarmed, which is an alarmd gui frontend, is written in python...	02:42
DocScrutinizer	probably I'm on his ignorelist XP	02:42
firestorm	lcuk: ?	02:43
corecode_	no	02:43
corecode_	i was more searching for a shell only solution	02:43
corecode_	since i only want to program one repetitive alarm	02:43
DocScrutinizer	corecode_: somebody nagged the author to implement a cmdline interface ;-P	02:44
ptl	you mean you don't want 'cron-like' functionality, only 'at-like'.	02:44
DocScrutinizer	to alarmed	02:44
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ptl	at now +5m...	02:44
corecode_	ptl: cron is good enough	02:44
ptl	*5 minutes	02:44
corecode_	i just want to set it up	02:44
DocScrutinizer	there's no cron on maemo	02:44
ptl	I know	02:44
ptl	that's why I said cron-like	02:44
corecode_	without having to write a c program to do so	02:44
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lcuk	corecode_, setup an alarm or make a daemon autostart?	02:45
corecode_	either	02:45
DocScrutinizer	corecode_: would you evetually consider to give a try to alarmed?	02:45
corecode_	DocScrutinizer: yes, my sdk doesn't seem to have these things yet	02:46
corecode_	the extras repos	02:46
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ptl	are you using python? or do you really need shell, corecode_?	02:47
ptl	because there are binding for python	02:47
ptl	python-alarm - Python bindings for libalarm library	02:47
corecode_	my program is python	02:47
ptl	so just use python-alarm, it's on extras... won't it work the way you want?	02:48
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DocScrutinizer	corecode_: http://paste.debian.net/66069/	02:50
ptl	I don't think it's a good idea to set a dependence on a whole app like alarmed... it's better to use libalarm	02:52
firestorm	any one tried running a mail server on there phones being linux based?	02:52
ptl	also, there are two apps that do the same as alarmed, fcron and some other whose nome I forgot	02:52
ptl	firestorm: now THAT's something that would be difficult to handle. mail servers do not work well with dynamic IPs, also for the cellphone network, usually the IP's are under NAT	02:54
corecode_	so what if i'd simply like to run a daemon on boot? init.d or something else?	02:54
ptl	corecode_: event.d (upstart)	02:54
corecode_	firestorm: to receive or to send?	02:54
ptl	/etc/event.d	02:54
firestorm	i know pti, just thought someone would given it ago lol	02:54
firestorm	both :p	02:54
ptl	the same as ubuntu, but ubuntu used /etc/init directory instead of /etc/event.d	02:54
corecode_	i see i see	02:55
ptl	corecode_: there is the /etc/init.d directory but if you put the scripts there it doesn't work, i.e. they are not started automatically (/etc/rc2.d or whatever)	02:55
ptl	corecode_: there is some package with sysv-something, I didn't test it, maybe it enables sysv compatibility mode for upstart.	02:56
ptl	hmmm	02:57
ptl	no, it's sysvinit-utils and it's nothing to do with sysv init.	02:57
ptl	btw	03:00
ptl	DocScrutinizer: I installed alarmed on my N900, but when I go to it, it shows only the text, and the whole background (with probably with the boxes for entering data) in black.	03:00
ptl	DocScrutinizer: do you know anything about this?	03:01
DocScrutinizer	never seen that	03:01
DocScrutinizer	works like a charm here	03:01
DocScrutinizer	both cmdline and gui	03:01
DocScrutinizer	ask Shapeshifter	03:02
ptl	ok	03:02
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corecode_	wow why is this such an old python version :/	03:04
ptl	DocScrutinizer: http://patola.org/ss.png if you want to take a look though	03:05
ptl	tried with two themes already	03:05
DocScrutinizer	hmm, theme would have been my only guess... sorry	03:06
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DocScrutinizer	as I said, as Shapeshifter - he's the author	03:10
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ptl	Shapeshifter: are you here?	03:12
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ds3	are there binaries for SLiRP on any of the repos?	03:13
ds3	think I've had enough of fighting pnatd	03:13
pupnik	~gronmayer.it	03:14
DocScrutinizer	fighting pnatd? sounds lke fun... until you learn about the missing features	03:14
ptl	[user@n900 user]% apt-cache search slirp	03:15
ptl	[user@n900 user]%	03:15
ptl	no luck	03:15
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DocScrutinizer	ptl: fyi - default theme here	03:18
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DocScrutinizer	though I'd guess alarmed.py is using standard widgets which should be tested and working with all commonly used themes, no?	03:20
ds3	DocScrutinizer: pnatd doesn't dump debugging info and the other end is equally tightlipped	03:20
DocScrutinizer	yo	03:20
DocScrutinizer	lol	03:20
ds3	cross compiling slirp... I know the remote end is fine with a raw pppd so slirp 'should' just drop in and work	03:20
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ptl	hmmm	03:21
ptl	it uses pyside. qt	03:21
ptl	I've seen on the changelog of PR1.2 something about QT not getting the theme colors right.	03:21
ptl	It might be this case.	03:22
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ptl	is there a chance of someone developing a program like this one (math program) for the N900? ---> http://www.spacetime.us/pocketpc/	05:01
ptl	...and don't tell me about recompiling xmaxima / macsyma...	05:01
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crashanddie	you need to recompile xmaxima / macsyma	05:07
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FlavioFerreiraBr	http://wiki.forum.nokia.com/index.php/How_to_get_accelerometer_data_of_N900_using_Qt	05:11
ptl	found something even better, crashanddie	05:11
ptl	kayali	05:11
ptl	it's qt	05:11
ptl	it's pythin	05:11
ptl	*python	05:11
ptl	this seems just the right app	05:12
ptl	it is very much like spacetime.	05:12
ptl	wow.	05:12
ptl	I mean	05:12
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ptl	it uses maxima also	05:13
ptl	but it has a simplified interface	05:13
ptl	easy to port to mobile	05:13
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ptl	oh... it has been abandoned in 2007	05:16
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yigal	are there any other channels on irc for umpc/mids running linux?	06:47
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yigal	other than #mer	06:48
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yigal	well I guess I'll join ##philosophy for the fun of it then, in the mean time that is	06:51
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Andrewfblack	GAN900, Ping	07:30
GAN900	Andrewfblack, pong.	07:31
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Andrewfblack	GAN900, just saw my minimalist theme wont be needed for meego	07:31
cehteh	mhm	07:31
GAN900	Andrewfblack, I just got the Morning Industries version of that lock for Insteon integration, by the way.	07:32
GAN900	Andrewfblack, just ignore him and do it anyway.	07:32
cehteh	is there somewhere a website showing screenshots of all available themes?	07:32
Andrewfblack	GAN900, got it tonight?	07:32
cehteh	imo its a bit unfortunate that theme are just mixed with all other stuff in HAM	07:32
GAN900	Andrewfblack, like some random Intel guy has say	07:33
Andrewfblack	GAN900, If Meego doesn't want a minimalist theme that is fine with me less work for me to do, btw is Reggie not running forums over there, who was that guy btw?	07:33
GAN900	Andrewfblack, day before yesterday	07:33
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GAN900	Switching the whole house to Insteon	07:34
GAN900	Amazing	07:34
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GAN900	Andrewfblack, Reggie's the one with say.	07:34
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GAN900	One of the Intel infra people.	07:34
Andrewfblack	Havn't looked at Insteon yet is it zwave?	07:35
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GAN900	Andrewfblack, no, better	07:51
GAN900	Dual band	07:51
GAN900	RF and powerline	07:51
GAN900	More stuff available.	07:51
Andrewfblack	GAN900, I might take a look at it. I havn't taken the time to install my door lock yet.	07:52
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Andrewfblack	well bed time for me. Later	08:07
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Stskeeps	morning	08:28
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RST38h	moorning Sts	08:29
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Khertan	Hello !	09:15
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Khertan	I got a problem with ham ... can t uninstall MaStory ... required by PyGTKEditor	09:15
Khertan	there is no dep on it	09:16
Khertan	apt-get remove didn t have the same problem	09:16
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crashanddie	Khertan: You are foutu.	09:18
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crashanddie	Khertan: There is no survie possible, give up all espoir of reussite.	09:18
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Khertan	crashanddie: i m not foutu ... but Hildon Application Manager is foutu	09:32
Stskeeps	can't wait till we switch to rpms	09:33
Stskeeps	:P	09:33
Khertan	lol ...	09:35
Khertan	will be worse	09:35
Stskeeps	as far as i can tell, hardly :P	09:36
Stskeeps	(i used debs before, now i kinda like rpms)	09:36
Khertan	how ? really ? as an user and a maintainer?	09:37
Stskeeps	both	09:37
Stskeeps	zypper helps insanity a lot	09:38
Khertan	look like a bit like apt-get for an usert	09:39
Khertan	look like a bit like apt-get for an user	09:39
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Khertan	ok the problem is clearly ham ... mix depandancy between package	09:42
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Khertan	ok will use only apt in cmd line now	09:42
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ds3	wheeeee DUN finally working with a patched up slirp!	09:51
Stskeeps	woo	09:51
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thresh	moroning	10:19
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asj	evening thresh	10:25
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optimus_prime	my name is ninto antok	10:27
optimus_prime	i'm a student interested to participate in gsoc 2010	10:28
optimus_prime	is there anybody who can help me	10:28
Stskeeps	ask your questions :)	10:28
optimus_prime	i have an idea . where can i propose	10:29
optimus_prime	?	10:29
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user_	hi i cannot choose a differemt protocol than aim in pidgin are there alternatives so i can use msn on the n900?	10:33
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Stskeeps	install the pecan msn plugin	10:35
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optimus_prime	?	10:38
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Stskeeps	optimus_prime: wiki.maemo.org is a good start	10:40
optimus_prime	thank you. let me check out	10:42
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Shapeshifter	ptl: I am now ;)	10:56
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Shapeshifter	ptl: and for the next 14 or so hours, mostly	10:57
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noobmonk3y	hhmmmmmmmm	11:02
noobmonk3y	at some point yesterday i saw a screen in hildon with a report "bug button" - looked like a pre-setup solution for bug reporting from an app? or was i imagining things?	11:03
Stskeeps	hildon extras maybe?	11:04
noobmonk3y	thanks Stskeeps - yup! - HeAboutDialog	11:05
noobmonk3y	pity the wiki page doesnt actually explain how to use them though :P	11:06
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noobmonk3y	meh	11:13
noobmonk3y	all in c :(	11:16
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Shapeshifter	Mh. Could someone help me with fixing a bug in my app? It's the frontend to alarmd. Some guy posted an excellent problem report here: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=582996#post582996 Especially the lower part about syncevolution. The problem is: When someone wants to create a custom command for scheduling, it seems like I cannot just give it to libalarm in direct fashion, e.g.: 'action.command = echo "foo" >> /tmp/foo'. i ...	11:18
Shapeshifter	... tried this and it doesn't work, probably (my guess), because of the '>>'. So I thought, I'd wrap stuff in /bin/ash -c '<here>', but this seems to work randomly for people, and randomly not. :\| For example that dude in the post: If he puts his syncevolution command inside my GUI, it comes out like this in alarmd_queue.ini: "action0.exec_command: /bin/ash -c '/opt/syncevolution/sync.py --quiet goosync'" and it does NOT work. ...	11:18
Shapeshifter	... However, if he runs exactly this from the command line, it works.	11:19
Shapeshifter	I just don't get what alarmd expects the exec_command parameter to be. For some commands, it works just putting them there, for me, they work if put int /bin/ash -c '', for some it works if that is changed to /bin/ash without the "-c", and for some commands, it works without any prefix -.-	11:19
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Shapeshifter	mh, the same dude found out that scripts shebanged with /bin/bash don't seem to work if bash is not installed. And I believed it was symlinked to ash >.>	11:32
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Kurppa_	/bin/sh works at least.	11:34
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lbt	ping X-Fade	11:41
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noobmonk3y	~seen vdvsx	11:46
infobot	vdvsx <~Valerio@Maemo/community/council/VDVsx> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 2d 12h 16m 22s ago, saying: 'GeneralAntilles, ehehe, but everybody knows that you're a undercover Nokian :p'.	11:46
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Shapeshifter	tmo: "essential updates on 'realistic wish list': Firewall and Anti-Virus software (especially since maemo is open code?)." lmao.....	12:06
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lcuk	mornin noobmonk3y \o konttori \o	12:10
lcuk	optimus_prime, it would be better to talk in here	12:10
optimus_prime	ya sure	12:11
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lcuk	so you want to take part in gsoc, whats your trouble	12:12
optimus_prime	so i've discussed certain issues with nobmonk3y but i need to know how can i make it into gsoc	12:12
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optimus_prime	i've an idea in mind how can i propose it	12:12
optimus_prime	?	12:12
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lcuk	well theres an ideas page for proposals on the gsoc wiki page, but talking about it here cant hurt either :)	12:14
lcuk	http://wiki.maemo.org/GSoC_2010	12:14
ccooke	Morning, all	12:14
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lcuk	mornin charles	12:15
Raveesh	Optimus Prime: visit the gsoc wiki page, and click on the "Edit" option next to the difficulty level you believe your project belongs to. A page would open showing you an editable region where you'd notice the current projects are present. Have a look at it's structure, and based on the symmetry post your proposal	12:15
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optimus_prime	thanks friend i'm on it	12:17
optimus_prime	how can i find a mentor then?	12:17
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lcuk	well since nobody knows of your project or its merits no mentors have been assigned yet (the projects havent been chosen either	12:18
Raveesh	That is something I'm not sure of myself. It's my first time at GSoC too. I believe the Maemo community people may search for one for you, or you can try to look around, see the current mentors, and search on this IRC as wel	12:18
optimus_prime	well that was helpful indeed	12:20
optimus_prime	i'm tryin to develop a multimedia application in mobiles	12:21
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saltsa_	anyone experienced with modest? Why it has the imap idle disabled even it lefts the tcp connection open?	12:22
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: had a laugh on that ++	12:27
gouverneur	morning btw	12:27
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Shapeshifter	moin moin	12:29
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: I am close to stop laughing on those people	12:30
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: wo bist du denn her	12:30
Shapeshifter	gouverneur: zürich ^^	12:30
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gouverneur	ah da war ich eben erst, meine mutter und meine tante wohnen um zuri	12:31
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gouverneur	seedamm/dietikon	12:31
Shapeshifter	mhhhm	12:32
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gouverneur	your name sounds familiar to me but more from rpg nwn as from knowing you	12:33
Shapeshifter	well I'm not related to any rpg.	12:33
Shapeshifter	also, my nick is not related to star trek, the dnb artist or werwolves.	12:34
gouverneur	is an elite cleric class, you might be a dragon though	12:34
Shapeshifter	ROAR	12:35
gouverneur	hehe	12:35
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* Arif_ throws the 7 dragon balls at Shapeshifter		12:35
Shapeshifter	Arif_: ouch, that hurts, stop throwing stuff at me ^^	12:36
gouverneur	I got an endlevel shapeshifter in nwn and sometime I would find it just useful in real life... a coward cleric running up at a crowded place and puff a 6m red dragon joins the fight	12:36
* Shapeshifter grabs a pencil and throws it in Arif_ general direction		12:36
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Arif_	I didn't wish for a pencil!	12:37
Arif_	={	12:37
gouverneur	Arif_: you dont have to ask for it...	12:37
Arif_	the cartoon lied to me ;(	12:37
gouverneur	^^	12:38
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* Arif_ wishes for a white DSi XL in yourope		12:41
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optimus_prime	hey anybody there?	12:59
nidO	depends	13:00
hd1	optimus_prime: nope	13:00
optimus_prime	hehe	13:00
optimus_prime	wanna ask qstn	13:01
optimus_prime	?	13:01
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Shapeshifter	optimus_prime: on IRC, you're usually supposed to just ask, not ask to ask, and wait for an answer a reasonable amount of time.	13:09
hd1	optimus_prime: don't pm me, mate	13:09
optimus_prime	thanks	13:09
optimus_prime	what are the basic requirements for developing a video based application besides sdk	13:10
optimus_prime	?	13:10
Shapeshifter	optimus_prime: what do you mean by "video based"? like, playing videos?	13:10
optimus_prime	manipulaing it	13:10
Shapeshifter	I'd say knowing/learning gstreamer is a good start regarding maemo.	13:11
optimus_prime	like reversing	13:11
corecode_	seems that updating the wallpaper with gconf only works if you change the filename	13:11
optimus_prime	selecting frames etc	13:11
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Shapeshifter	optimus_prime: gstreamer or ffmpeg	13:11
corecode_	which is silly	13:11
optimus_prime	thanks mate	13:12
corecode_	which is silly	13:12
* Arif_ waits for coreplayer on Moomo 5...		13:12
hd1	blame canada, blame canada	13:12
* hd1 loves south park		13:13
corecode_	anybody have an idea how i can force a reload of the wallpaper?	13:13
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Arif_	hd1, you should read a book! :D	13:13
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hd1	Arif_: nah, I'd rather blame Canada :)	13:16
dan2003	how can i install packages without apt/dpkg re-downlaoding them? they are all already on my system under ${scratchnox}/var/cache/apt/archives/	13:16
Arif_	or write your own :(	13:16
hd1	or something equally silly	13:16
hd1	Arif_: write? I'm illeter8	13:17
Arif_	and on irc? :p	13:17
Arif_	dan2003, apt-get install /where/is/my.file?	13:17
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dan2003	Arif_: will that find dependancies in the same place?	13:18
Arif_	No idea ;D	13:18
Shapeshifter	dan2003: dpkg -i /path/to/file	13:18
hd1	depends on how the dpkg description file is configured	13:18
* Arif_ should stop confusing commands..		13:19
Arif_	={	13:19
hd1	well, apt-get is just a wrapper around dpkg	13:19
Shapeshifter	apt is stupid anyway.	13:19
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hd1	Shapeshifter: are you one of those "real men write their own bootloader" types?	13:19
dan2003	dpkg -i /var/cache/apt/archives/libqt4-maemo5-* seems to have doen the trick	13:20
Shapeshifter	hd1: nope	13:20
Arif_	you can just poke the deb files with filemanager too	13:20
Arif_	;o	13:20
DocScrutinizer	mooo Shapeshifter	13:20
nidO	real men dont write their own bootloaders, they write the whole os on the fly.	13:20
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: moin	13:21
dan2003	in assembly	13:21
dan2003	bootstram from biological memeory	13:21
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: heard the sad story from ptl ?	13:21
Arif_	and the normal user will leech off them?	13:21
hd1	Arif_: if their task is ever completed, yes, that is what they hope anyway	13:22
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: no, what was it about?	13:22
* DocScrutinizer notices a flashing yellow "!"		13:22
Arif_	opensource projects never get completed :p	13:22
DocScrutinizer	http://patola.org/ss.png	13:22
Shapeshifter	I think he doesn't have hilighting enabled in his IRC client. he asked me twice while I was away and I replied but he didn't get the message apparently.	13:23
hd1	Arif_: gcc seems pretty complete to me	13:23
hd1	same with emacs	13:23
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: huh what on earth is that. the background of his text input field isn't white?	13:23
* hd1 goes to bed		13:23
DocScrutinizer	pr1.2?	13:23
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: pr1.2? well that looks like some broken Qt.	13:24
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DocScrutinizer	[2010-03-27 02:20:07] <DocScrutinizer> though I'd guess alarmed.py is using standard widgets which should be tested and working with all commonly used themes, no? [2010-03-27 02:21:40] <ptl> it uses pyside. qt [2010-03-27 02:21:56] <ptl> I've seen on the changelog of PR1.2 something about QT not getting the theme colors right	13:25
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: but why does he have pr1.2? is that an sdk shot?	13:26
* Arif_ also got a yellow !		13:26
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: no idea	13:26
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Arif_	oo	13:27
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: whatever it is, I doubt I can do something about it. it uses Qt, well pyside, yeah. But pyside gets a new and very fresh/different release soon to extras-devel anyway.	13:27
Arif_	picodrive and ukeyboard got updated	13:27
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Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: they already have released Shiboken, but not made a .deb yet for pyside-shiboken.	13:27
dan2003	k, im devleoping qt4.6 in sdk (with pr1.2 update) can i install 4.6 onto device alongside 4.5 or not?	13:27
Shapeshifter	should come out in a few days. this way, alarmed will also lose the libboost dependencies and all that.	13:28
DocScrutinizer	~nuke libboost	13:28
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at libboost ... B☢☢M!		13:28
dan2003	sorry, am developing an qt4.6 app , not qt itself	13:28
Kurppa_	I think it's either 4.5 or 4.6, not both.	13:28
dan2003	so we have to eait for pr1.2 device update b4 able to try on device ? :(	13:29
noobmonk3y	dan2003, yes :D (or in sdk)	13:29
dan2003	as it just seg faults if i try to launcg on device atm	13:29
dan2003	yeah wokrs on desktop	13:29
Arif_	hm	13:29
Arif_	I can't update ukeyboard	13:29
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Arif_	hildon-im-fkb (>=3.9.61-1) is missing	13:30
DocScrutinizer	update of simple-brightness-applet fails due to missing libhildon1(>=2.2.10)	13:32
* DocScrutinizer will refrain from updating anything for a few days		13:32
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BadRobot	hi there	13:33
Arif_	at least I know there's a Turkish virtual keyboard for pr1.2 now....=D	13:33
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ech0dish	anyone know how many devices joikuspot can support? just curious..	13:41
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* RST38h moos distractedly		13:43
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MohammadAG	ech0dish, as much as the Wifi spec allows? (ad-hoc)	13:46
noobmonk3y	lol	13:46
* noobmonk3y w0000ps		13:47
ech0dish	i dont understand why joikuspot doesn't support WPA	13:48
ech0dish	it only has WEP... wtf thats just cheep	13:48
Arif_	it wants to support the Nintendo DS :P	13:49
cos^	WPA would be probably much more difficult to implement and possibly more heavy on cpu?	13:49
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ech0dish	might as well make the password letmein if your going to use WEP...	13:50
Arif_	the N900 probably has a range of 10cm anyway	13:51
ech0dish	has a good range	13:52
ech0dish	i can go far, thats not issue	13:52
noobmonk3y	how far is far? interested as i will be using it next wee k:D	13:52
ech0dish	seems just as good as my d-link wireless g router	13:52
ech0dish	i can use it anywhere in my apartment	13:53
noobmonk3y	yay!	13:53
* Arif_ is too cheap to buy joiku ={		13:53
noobmonk3y	lol	13:53
ech0dish	tested in the bathroom	13:53
Arif_	you need internet in the bathroom?	13:53
ech0dish	yeah with the n900 in the kitchen	13:53
ech0dish	plugged in chargin on the counter	13:53
noobmonk3y	wohooooooooooooooooooooooooo!	13:54
ech0dish	worked great	13:54
ech0dish	streamed perfect youtube vids	13:54
noobmonk3y	healthcheck update stacked windows work!!! (extras-devel)	13:54
Arif_	thats better than I expected!	13:54
Arif_	noobmonk3y, yay! now you need to get people to use it!	13:54
noobmonk3y	hehe 18,000+ downloads :\|	13:54
ech0dish	i have it	13:54
ech0dish	used it to test the front cam	13:55
noobmonk3y	cool :D :D	13:55
Arif_	that's pretty impressive for a platform that has 7 users :P	13:55
noobmonk3y	will be updating that to front video soon too	13:55
noobmonk3y	Arif_, lol!	13:55
ech0dish	arif, can i pm u?	13:55
noobmonk3y	8) - Louis walsh has one lol	13:55
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Arif_	no need to ask...	13:56
LuciusMare	Hi, how much space will the easy debian take?	13:56
LuciusMare	hi Arif	13:56
noobmonk3y	~wink at Arif_	13:56
noobmonk3y	meh	13:56
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noobmonk3y	infobot doesnt love me no more	13:56
noobmonk3y	ech0dish, is there anything else you would like to see in healthcheck? :D - other then better graphics lol	13:57
noobmonk3y	ooo btw - thinking of doing a 3d test in it :D	13:57
nidO	has healthcheck got a proper vibrate test yet>? :D	13:57
Arif_	LuciusMare, itll take about and exactly 2GB	13:57
noobmonk3y	yup :D	13:57
noobmonk3y	nidO, lets you select form some of the built in patterns	13:58
noobmonk3y	from*	13:58
nidO	nice	13:58
noobmonk3y	well the devel version does	13:58
noobmonk3y	got sound tests, led patterns too	13:58
Arif_	(File info for) H:\debian-m5-v3b.img.ext2 (Size) 2.00GB (Created) Wednesday, 24.03.2010 17:24:43 (Modified) Thursday, 25.02.2010 18:43:08 (Attributes) A	13:58
nidO	okay, heres an ideas	13:58
DocScrutinizer	[2010-03-27 12:50:37] <ech0dish> might as well make the password letmein if your going to use WEP... --- ech0dish, ad-hoc is basically just "letmein"	13:58
noobmonk3y	and now just added the ascreen accuracy & keyboard test + dead pixel test :D	13:58
nidO	maybe have healthcheck do a backup check, and warn you if you have no backup / a backup over say a month old	13:59
noobmonk3y	oooo	13:59
noobmonk3y	thats a clever idea :D	13:59
noobmonk3y	assuming backups are all of the same file tpye?	13:59
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noobmonk3y	type?	13:59
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nidO	good question, checking	14:00
noobmonk3y	:D	14:00
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* noobmonk3y brb's - shower		14:00
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DocScrutinizer	noobmonk3y should include a healthcheck for the battery cell :-P	14:01
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* DocScrutinizer also wonders if healthcheck has a notion about the number of bad blocks on NAND		14:03
nidO	okay backup files have no extension, but you cant specify a folder for them so the backups will always be in /home/user/MyDocs/backups or in /backups on the sd card	14:05
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nidO	also rather bizzarely... I cant access sshd on my device while it's charging, anyone seen that? :<	14:06
noobmonk3y	DocScrutinizer, can you explain that a bit more? - mha etc?	14:07
noobmonk3y	ahaaaaa cheers nidO	14:07
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* DocScrutinizer points to backup.metadata		14:15
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DocScrutinizer	nidO: I'm doing this (access ssh while charging) all the time. No problems	14:16
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DocScrutinizer	noobmonk3y: nidO: MyDocs/backups/<backupname>/(*.zip\|backup.metadata)	14:18
Shapeshifter	nidO: you sure you're not just trying the wron IP or something?	14:19
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DocScrutinizer	noobmonk3y: I was halfway kidding. It's not simple task to check cell health. You could try to readout bq27200 values (see http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/battery/bq27k-detail for a few details on bq27xxx chip). You could check voltage drop during enabling a strong consumer (e.g. vibrator, gprs tx, toggle backlight on/off)...	14:24
noobmonk3y	hmmmm not a bad idea though	14:25
noobmonk3y	something i could work on :D	14:25
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SpeedEvil	impedence spectrometry	14:27
SpeedEvil	backlight is a good candidate	14:27
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SpeedEvil	apply a superposed pwm sequence of 0.01,1,10hz	14:28
SpeedEvil	synchronus demod of battery response	14:29
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: that's what I thought, yes	14:29
dan2003	anybody here use mpd?	14:29
dan2003	(im making a clinet for n900) seen an exsiting onw, (cuteMPD) but inmy opinion its to "fiddly", makin gone with nice big easy to use buttons,	14:30
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SpeedEvil	mpd?	14:32
noobmonk3y	mobilephonesdirect in my book lol	14:33
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* noobmonk3y is off, c'yall laters		14:34
* Arif_ wants a DVBService client :P		14:34
FIQ	will PR1.2 break compatibility with older maemo versions?	14:34
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Arif_	ukeyboard is already broken	14:35
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FIQ	ukeyboard doesn't work yea	14:36
FIQ	but.. what's the problem?	14:36
FIQ	breaking compatibilities when the only new thing is some bug fixes and package updates...	14:37
FIQ	seems odd to me	14:37
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Arif_	you can't install the new version on PR1.1.1	14:37
Arif_	=}	14:37
FIQ	i know	14:37
Arif_	which is understandable	14:38
Arif_	as PR1.2 has a new virtual keyboard layout	14:38
FIQ	ah	14:38
FIQ	hm	14:38
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FIQ	but that's not what i mean, i mean, why will the update make the old packages unusable?	14:38
Arif_	lets all boycot PR1.2 if apps don't work	14:38
Arif_	:P	14:38
FIQ	or have i done some major mis-understand? :d	14:39
FIQ	good point	14:39
Arif_	I guess older apps will work...	14:39
Arif_	go install the sdk and try :P	14:39
FIQ	yay, the packagelistupdate is done	14:39
FIQ	took only 5 minutes!	14:40
Arif_	yay!	14:40
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FIQ	hm	14:50
FIQ	you know, the alt+f2 thing at linux desktop	14:51
FIQ	is that feature in hildon?	14:51
Arif_	what does that do?	14:51
FIQ	a text field on the screen	14:52
FIQ	type an application name will launch it	14:52
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Arif_	apparently that feature will be in the menu	14:52
Arif_	in pr1.2	14:52
FIQ	some of them also makes it possible to run bash commands, but that's not required for me	14:53
FIQ	ah, nice	14:53
Arif_	and fınally a way to rearrange ıcons!	14:53
Arif_	alphabeticallly=stupid :D	14:53
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-hubbard.freenode.net- [freenode-info] please register your nickname...don't forget to auto-identify! http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup		16:36
MohammadAG	VDVsx, does a package with broken dependencies get deleted? I uploaded a package into extras-devel and set it to a wrong dependency (fixed it in 0.2-1)	16:37
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VDVsx	MohammadAG, not, afaik	16:37
VDVsx	only if you upload a couple of new versions	16:37
* Stskeeps installs sygic and likes it		16:37
* VDVsx has free ovi maps and likes it :P		16:38
MohammadAG	VDVsx, already uploaded a couple :P	16:39
* Stskeeps doesn't particularly like ovi maps		16:39
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Stskeeps	:P	16:39
Stskeeps	(also, we're going to use this in our car with voice navigation)	16:39
* MohammadAG dislikes the fact that only Google Maps has maps for Israel		16:39
VDVsx	Stskeeps, I'm talking about the real deal, not the n900 version, works pretty well with voice navigation :)	16:40
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GAN900	VDVsx has had ne	16:50
GAN900	enough of the whipping boy post. :P	16:50
DocScrutinizer	heh, wasn't it as pleasant as expected?	16:51
DocScrutinizer	wrong whip I assume :-P	16:51
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* VDVsx crosses GAN900 from his voting list		16:52
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VDVsx	damn, already voted :(	16:53
lcuk	o_O	16:53
* lcuk has big multitouch pc		16:54
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aquatix	lcuk: ?	16:54
lcuk	i just bought a new computer	16:54
VDVsx	lcuk, isn't only a screen ? or has cpu as well ?	16:54
aquatix	a tablet?	16:55
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: I thought you broke your screen in a very unique way ;-)	16:55
aquatix	DocScrutinizer: ghehe	16:55
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lcuk	aquatix, large format monitor for next to me	16:55
lcuk	VDVsx, full machine	16:55
lcuk	allinone	16:55
MohammadAG	HP Touchsmart?	16:55
MohammadAG	oh nvm	16:55
DocScrutinizer	gesture for black, gesture for fading to white	16:56
lcuk	was gonna get one	16:56
lcuk	but was concerned about amd :)	16:56
lcuk	so i got a packard bell onetwo which has intel chip :)	16:56
MohammadAG	Touchsmarts use AMD?	16:56
MohammadAG	facepalm	16:56
lcuk	i think theres different models, the only touchsmarts i saw were amd	16:57
lcuk	they had a hp tablet too	16:57
lcuk	multitouch but my stylus didnt work with it	16:57
lcuk	and i didnt like the stylus they supplied	16:57
lcuk	so i got the packard bell that works with my n900 stylus :)	16:57
* DocScrutinizer wonders how multituch with stylus does work		16:58
DocScrutinizer	lcuk: you'll need 2 N900 ;-P	16:59
lcuk	thats easy :)	16:59
lcuk	i already have that	16:59
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SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer, it's for japan	16:59
VDVsx	lcuk, only 2 ? :p	16:59
lcuk	:)	16:59
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer, 4 styluses	16:59
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: XP	16:59
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lcuk	anyone coming to birmingham tonight?	17:00
VDVsx	no :P	17:00
DocScrutinizer	how to sync to KDE Kontact? anybody?	17:00
ShadowJK	lol?	17:00
DocScrutinizer	k	17:01
VDVsx	DocScrutinizer, did you try to search at Tmo ? I read something about that but can remember where :(	17:01
DocScrutinizer	VDVsx: ok, I'll try the google approach then	17:02
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ShadowJK	oh yeah, I vaguely remember a linux program for syncing now.. it had a very weird name :/	17:05
DocScrutinizer	kitchensync?	17:05
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* MohammadAG likes how Joikuspot doubles as a portable heater		17:05
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* DocScrutinizer wonders if setting N900 on fire would serve same purpose		17:07
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MohammadAG	nah, setting it on fire would kill it for good, Joikuspot just locks the CPU @ 600MHz	17:08
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* DocScrutinizer heard that's also killing it for good ;-P		17:09
MohammadAG	not in this weather :P	17:10
ShadowJK	MohammadAG, it locks it at 600? really?	17:10
ShadowJK	I thought the heat would mostly be because it puts wlan in adhoc mode which has no powersaving at all	17:11
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MohammadAG	well CPU is running at 100% all the time	17:11
MohammadAG	and I'm assuming that's 600	17:11
MohammadAG	ShadowJK, Ad-hoc doesn't raise it as much	17:11
MohammadAG	check top	17:11
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ShadowJK	I havent reid joikuspot... does it fix the kernel issues?	17:12
MohammadAG	hmm it's cooling down	17:12
MohammadAG	which issues?	17:12
ShadowJK	crashing ones :)	17:12
MohammadAG	never crashes for me	17:12
ShadowJK	powertop should give statistics of cpu states anyway..	17:12
MohammadAG	BUT it doesn't work on custom kernels	17:12
MohammadAG	you have to use the stock kernel	17:12
ShadowJK	it comes with a funny kernel module iirc	17:13
MohammadAG	ShadowJK, after 30 second-analysis...	17:13
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ShadowJK	it probably does nat/something in userspace	17:13
MohammadAG	it seems that when the screen is locked, CPU is running at less than 10%	17:13
MohammadAG	but the speedometer they use seems to be raising this, and that happens when the screen is unlocked	17:14
MohammadAG	the kernel module is open source	17:14
ShadowJK	yeah	17:14
ShadowJK	it just passes packets really..	17:15
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MohammadAG	ShadowJK, Xorg uses about +60% when the screen is unlocked	17:16
ShadowJK	lol :)	17:16
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DocScrutinizer	hooray for updating speedometer at 200fps	17:30
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MohammadAG	something's wrong	17:36
MohammadAG	the N900 isn't charging	17:36
MohammadAG	it's charging (as in it says charging) but when I remove the cable it dings	17:37
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ptl	dings?	17:39
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ShadowJK	low battery warning I'd assume	17:42
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MohammadAG	ptl ^	17:42
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ptl	:/	17:43
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mortal	is it possible to install the latest tear on os2008	17:45
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ShadowJK	There's one for maemo5 and there's one for maemo4(os2008), pick the right one	17:46
mortal	where do I find the libwebkit packages	17:46
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ShadowJK	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=28539&highlight=tear+browser	17:53
jatt	it,s safe to use the n900 with the ac adapter connected even if the battery is full?	17:53
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ShadowJK	yes it is	17:54
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MohammadAG	it discharges iirc	17:55
MohammadAG	and then starts recharging when the battery goes down	17:56
jatt	i read in the manual i think tha this could lead to trouble	17:56
MohammadAG	so it doesn't run on AC power	17:56
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MohammadAG	it might waste energy so your bill we be a cent or two higher :P	17:56
El_Angelo	hi	17:58
El_Angelo	any of you found a car charger that works with the n900 ?	17:58
El_Angelo	http://www.hama.de/portal/articleId166923/action2563	17:58
El_Angelo	i bought this one	17:59
El_Angelo	but my nokia ain't charging with it :(	17:59
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mortal	thanks	18:00
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jatt	hmm the applet doesn't show as it is discharging but anyway i think that was the issue written in the manual	18:02
MohammadAG	jatt, it shouldn't	18:04
jatt	it should'nt run on ac power?	18:04
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MohammadAG	No	18:05
ShadowJK	El_Angelo, yes I have the nokia DC-10 car charger. Works fine.	18:07
DocScrutinizer	~tell jatt about batteryfaq	18:07
ShadowJK	El_Angelo, searh tmo for "solution dumb charger"	18:08
ShadowJK	DocScrutinizer, we should write one specific to n900 too :-)	18:08
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dan2003	El_Angelo: i beleive u may need to short the 2 usb signl pins in the charger plug if it refuess to charge	18:08
dan2003	tho the one i got just wokred	18:09
MrCoder	Hi guys, Is it possible to get GTK+2.0 => 2.1.8 on the N900?	18:09
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: most parts of the OM batfaq are generic, not specific to any particular hw platform	18:09
ShadowJK	dan2003, the nokia car charger is obviously microusb charging compliant and "just works"	18:10
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* Noobmonk3y_ waves		18:11
dan2003	ShadowJK: i didnt buy the nokai one, i bought an el-cheapo one from ebay	18:11
ShadowJK	3670mV and 20mAh left the battery meter says.. it fails so hard with the 2400mAh batttery :D	18:11
Noobmonk3y_	ooo two of me, must have left my laptop on	18:11
DocScrutinizer	dan2003: as would any standard 12v->USB adapter	18:11
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Noobmonk3y_	oooo decent batteries exist? :)	18:12
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ShadowJK	noobmonk3y, well it's twice as thick as the original battery	18:13
Noobmonk3y_	ahhhh mugen stylee?	18:13
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jonaskoe1ker	Hi all. Has anyone used the locate package? I'm puzzled: it creates a buncha folders in /usr/{lib,bin} and so forth, but doesn't put any files there. It puts all the files in /opt/maemo/... (e.g. /opt/maemo/usr/bin/gnu/locate)	18:13
jonaskoe1ker	what's up with that?	18:13
Noobmonk3y_	noooo idea	18:14
Noobmonk3y_	space for temp files?	18:14
DocScrutinizer	~optification	18:14
infobot	[optification] a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs	18:14
Ken-Young	jonaskoe1ker, Sounds like bad optification.	18:14
dotCOMmie	is there a good media player for n900 which can play based on directories?	18:14
jonaskoe1ker	ah	18:14
jonaskoe1ker	but wait, shouldn't /opt/.../bin be in my $PATH ... ?	18:15
ShadowJK	noobmonk3y, yes this is the mugen fatbattery	18:15
jonaskoe1ker	and ... why don't people just fix the partitioning? Is that a hairy, sticky process?	18:15
Noobmonk3y_	ahhhh did you get one? my main concern is no cam cover?	18:15
DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: and being twice as thick it should have at least 2.5 times the capacity :-/	18:16
RST38h	jonas: it is a hairy sticky process.	18:16
mortal	is it possible to edit the menus on os2008?	18:16
RST38h	and the details are too hairy for you to understand.	18:16
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ShadowJK	DocScrutinizer, the actualy cell is shorther than the original though	18:17
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ShadowJK	but anyway, small manufacturers like mugen don't have access to the awesome battery factories like the bog boys such as nokia do..	18:17
tybollt	bog boys? :D	18:18
Noobmonk3y_	:)	18:18
ShadowJK	s/bog/big/	18:18
infobot	ShadowJK meant: but anyway, small manufacturers like mugen don't have access to the awesome battery factories like the big boys such as nokia do..	18:18
tybollt	sjk: www.b0g.org :)	18:18
Noobmonk3y_	if only nokia realised they had the technology lol	18:18
ShadowJK	Considering their same-volume battery for N800 had 1200mAh compared to nokia original 1500mAh :)	18:18
jonaskoe1ker	RST38h: really? Hm... I'd figure you'd install a mini-linux which lets you pxe-boot over wifi (pesky wpa2 and so forth) an OS which then fidgets the file systems...	18:19
ShadowJK	(the 1200 was advertised as 1800)	18:19
jonaskoe1ker	RST38h: or something like that	18:19
tybollt	well	18:19
dotCOMmie	Maybe its possible to play all mp3s in a folder with default player? I cant seem to find that option	18:19
jonaskoe1ker	dotCOMmie: I think it's designed to not have it	18:20
Noobmonk3y_	i think you have to vcreate a play list first	18:20
jonaskoe1ker	dotCOMmie: designed by people who think they know what you want	18:20
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dotCOMmie	jonaskoe1ker: is there an alternative music player that can do this?	18:20
tybollt	the thing is - when nokia had made the N900 and everyone realized "shit this bat won't cut it" the normal marketing things is "let's not release an add on bat, instead - let's make the bat for the NEXT GEN device beefier and tout that at launch" ... simple as that	18:20
Noobmonk3y_	dont think so	18:21
dan2003	its not quite that simple, there is a 256Meg nand flash, which ahs the syste on, and a further 32 gig as a eMMC flash, so they cannot just be repartioned	18:21
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dan2003	they are seperate physical mediums	18:21
jonaskoe1ker	dotCOMmie: I don't know if they've been packaged, but mpd and mplayer are what I use on my desk/laptops, and they're _mighty_ fine :)	18:21
ShadowJK	tybollt: well the original battery manages the stated goal of lasting the day for me..	18:21
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dan2003	i am in the process (right now) of writing a mpd client for n900, (i dont like cuteMPD)	18:21
jonaskoe1ker	dan2003: ah, I see	18:21
dotCOMmie	jonaskoe1ker: I use moc(p) on my laptops but.. it would be nice to not have to use a keyboard	18:21
dotCOMmie	I guess mplayer * will have to do for now	18:22
jonaskoe1ker	dotCOMmie: how about "find -type f > playlist.m3u"	18:22
ShadowJK	tybollt, I think the biggest issue is finding out what eats battery, because top is worthless for it, and what eats power and how much is pretty unintuitive to the average developer, let alone user	18:22
dotCOMmie	I organize music by folders and usually play them like that having hundreds of playlist is suboptimal	18:23
dotCOMmie	esp since you wont get hierachy	18:23
ShadowJK	powertop is somewhat usable, but it's still a trial and error of disabling/uninstalling desktop widgets until wakeups go down..	18:23
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jonaskoe1ker	dotCOMmie: well, I meant to create one big hunking playlist	18:24
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jonaskoe1ker	dotCOMmie: then you have some sort of folder locality/clustered-together-ness because of similar (full) file names	18:24
dotCOMmie	jonaskoe1ker: yeah that would work. But its silly there is now file browser in music player	18:25
dotCOMmie	almost every musics player does	18:25
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jonaskoe1ker	dotCOMmie: I agree 100% :)	18:25
jonaskoe1ker	it's rather silly. It's also a poor backend choice for gPodder, because it adds podcasts to my media library ^_^	18:25
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dan2003	i use my zaurus with MPD to play the music and have a home made ui for client, the audio files are hosted by nas on my wifi router, am writing a client for n900 atm, plus use minion firefox plugin from laptop/dekstop	18:26
mortal	wow, tear is very nice	18:26
dan2003	also havea gumstix with audiostix which i plan on setting up with mpd	18:26
dan2003	for the other room	18:26
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dotCOMmie	gumstick have soundcard add ons?	18:26
dan2003	indeed	18:27
dotCOMmie	neat	18:27
dan2003	and wifistix	18:28
dan2003	the 3 stacked up make for one teenie mpd server	18:28
corecode_	any idea why the n900 would say "not charging" when it is on usb?	18:28
corecode_	it is not the nokia cable, but still...	18:28
dotCOMmie	why not just get openwrt compatible router with usb sound card?	18:28
dotCOMmie	it'll only be 10 times larger d:	18:28
dan2003	cos i have this tuff alread ;) i have 2 x asus router with usbhost . (usb audio cabaple) also	18:29
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dan2003	anybody know which repo has libwebkit in ?	18:33
DocScrutinizer	corecode_: it says "not charging" ?	18:34
corecode_	DocScrutinizer: yes	18:34
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corecode_	DocScrutinizer: first "charging" appears	18:34
corecode_	DocScrutinizer: then right after "not charging"	18:34
corecode_	yellow box	18:35
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DocScrutinizer	hmm, wrong voltage maybe	18:35
* RST38h is amazed by how quickly the Chinese design houses have caught up with TI and other big companies		18:35
corecode_	dunno	18:35
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corecode_	now i need a upstart script	18:35
corecode_	and a way to remove my old symlinks	18:36
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corecode_	too bad /tmp is so small	18:36
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MohammadAG	corecode_, tried a different PC?	18:36
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Kurppa_	Not charging means the USB host you have plugged it into, cannot provide enough current to charge the phone.	18:39
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Kurppa_	Standard current for USB is 100mA, if the USB device is not a "supported" device.	18:40
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Kurppa_	500mA if it is a supported device.	18:40
Kurppa_	This means, that if you plug it into a modem for example, and the modem does support reading the device in mass storage mode, you will get 500mA if you have the phone in mass storage mode.	18:40
MohammadAG	BTW the not charging happened to me once and it was a sw bug, a reboot fixed it	18:41
Kurppa_	If the phone is in PC suite mode, you will get 100mA because the phone is not recognised by the modem.	18:41
disco_stu	Kurppa_, cool tip, did not know that, thx :)	18:41
Kurppa_	And will definitely get the "not charging" notification.	18:42
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disco_stu	Kurppa_, i've been wondering why my phone wont charge, even with my notebook's power share activated	18:42
Kurppa_	In a PC that does not have Nokia drivers installed, you will also get "not charging" if you have it in PC suite mode, since the phone is not recognised.	18:42
MohammadAG	noobmonk3y, ping	18:43
DocScrutinizer	Kurppa_: that's partially a question of N900 doing correct ENUM on USB though	18:43
dmj726_n9001	Kurppa: that only applies to windows	18:44
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DocScrutinizer	Kurppa_: the 'supported device" bit is mostly a OTG issue	18:44
Kurppa_	The phone also remembers which mode you had it last in. If you had it on PC suite mode and now you only select "charging only", it will still be advertised to the PC in "pc suite" mode and you will get 100mA.	18:44
Kurppa_	So if it does not charge correctly, plug it into PC, select "mass storage" mode, and then it will charge correctly.	18:44
DocScrutinizer	Kurppa_: ee	18:45
DocScrutinizer	err what?	18:45
Kurppa_	That's how it's supposed to work. It's part of USB specification.	18:45
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Kurppa_	You can google "usb unit load" for a better explanation, I'm crappy at explaining things :-)	18:46
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RST38h	"Ubuntu Will Switch To Base-10 File Size Units In Future Release"	18:47
DocScrutinizer	Kurppa_: any standard USB gadget will do a proper negotiation of allowed VBUS current on ENUM, aiui. The 'known device' bit is a OTG extension where you got no ENUM as there's no master	18:47
RST38h	Is it April 1st already???	18:48
Kurppa_	The AC adapter that came with the phone is different though, and will charge much faster than a PC can. It delivers 900mA or 9 unit load.	18:48
MohammadAG	Ugh I'm downgrading to ubuntu 9.10	18:48
MohammadAG	too many crashes in the beta	18:48
MohammadAG	it feels like windows...	18:48
dmj726_n9001	Rst38h: I'm waiting for base ten x86 cpus.	18:49
El_Angelo	dan2003: which one did you get?	18:49
El_Angelo	car charger that is...	18:49
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ShadowJK	the ac adapter that came with my n900 delivers 1200mA	18:49
Kurppa_	DocScrutinizer: N900 is different then, if I understood you correctly :-)	18:49
DocScrutinizer	Kurppa_: my charger is capable of 1200mA	18:50
dan2003	El_Angelo: uhm - i donno, was a generic one from hong-kong on ebay. I'll pop to car and loko if u want but i doubt itll have anythhing on it to identify it by	18:50
Kurppa_	It's capable of 1200mA, but I think the phone only charges at 900mA if I remember correctly. Good point though, mine was the same, 1200mA.	18:51
RST38h	Mohammad: Is 9.10 safe?	18:52
RST38h	Mohammad: Does it run Scratchbox2?	18:52
Kurppa_	Ubuntu beta has always been crashy. It's still been crashy 2 months after release :-)	18:52
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lardman	afternoon all	18:53
Kurppa_	Hello there.	18:53
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lardman	hi Kurppa_	18:54
RST38h	moo lardman	18:54
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lardman	hey RST38h	18:54
DocScrutinizer	Kurppa_: whenever I plug my N900 to my laptop I see it in lsusb, and it has negotiated the max of 500mA. That's not dependent on g_ether or whatever, or on vendorid being listed in the database file	18:54
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chintu	hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii	18:55
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DocScrutinizer	i stuck?	18:55
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Kurppa_	Alright. I don't know if it's my phone that's just malfunctioning then.	18:55
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Kurppa_	Every time I've had it in PC suite mode and plugged it into a PC without PC suite drivers, it's been saying "not enough juice to charge".	18:56
lardman	so is pr1.2 out yet?	18:56
ShadowJK	battery low warning at 3637mV... fail	18:56
Kurppa_	lardman: not today.	18:56
lardman	lcuk: you about?	18:56
lardman	Kurppa_: I've been out of touch for a couple of weeks, so was just wondering	18:57
Kurppa_	Ah, I see.	18:57
ShadowJK	Kurppa_, iirc if you remove drivers added by pc suite/ovi suite it starts working again.. something like that	18:57
Kurppa_	I've tried on a couple of pristine PC:s. PC suite has never been installed on them. But I do not know if it's just a bug in my phone.	18:58
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ShadowJK	In general that message is displayed when the host pc does not agree to supply power	18:59
Kurppa_	Yes. It has always helped if I get the PC to recognise the device using mass storage mode.	18:59
Kurppa_	There could be a difference in how windows and unix handle it.	19:00
lardman	hmm, I could really do with Google Street view (or similar) with a hook into the land registry house prices so I can walk around and see the price of houses in the vicinity	19:00
TomaszD	anyone knows Gabriel Shulhof?	19:00
Kurppa_	You said you have used lsusb, so I assume you've used linux or another variant of unix.	19:00
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lcuk	lardman, just whats up?	19:00
Kurppa_	I've only tried in win xp and 7.	19:00
lardman	compass would help too, I don't suppose a hidden compass has been discovered in the N900 in the past couple of weeks? ;)	19:00
lcuk	(setting off to birmingham in ~ 5mins	19:00
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lardman	lcuk: Trying to remember the name of that gst source switcher you found for me	19:01
lardman	or a vague date?	19:01
Kurppa_	lardman: it has. And a kitchen sink was found as well.	19:01
lardman	Kurppa_: wonderful ;)	19:01
lcuk	cripes lardman !	19:02
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DocScrutinizer	Kurppa_: connect to laptop, select 'PC Suite', halley:~ # lsusb -v -s 1:4; ->... bmAttributes 0x80	19:02
lardman	lcuk: :)	19:02
DocScrutinizer	(Bus Powered) MaxPower 500mA	19:02
Kurppa_	Yep. Looks good. I think this linux or whatever you're using is a lot smarter than my those windows pc:s I've tried.	19:03
Kurppa_	Minus the my.	19:03
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Kurppa_	I'll try that as well after I find an usb cable to see if it's just a bug in the software I'm using in the phone. Or in the phone itself :-)	19:05
lcuk	lardman, :) check your pm	19:05
DocScrutinizer	yeah, windoze is known to do some weird nasty things to USB	19:05
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jonaskoe1ker	Hi all. How do I proegramatically fiddle with my contacts?	19:05
lardman	lcuk: thanks mate, have a safe trip back home	19:05
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lcuk	will do - i have new toys so will play later	19:06
lardman	jonaskoe1ker: what sort of fiddling?	19:06
Kurppa_	The contacts are probably stored in this sqlite database.. I forget where.	19:06
jonaskoe1ker	several have gotten multiple identical facebook account #s attached to them, I want to remove them all	19:06
lardman	lcuk: will try to catch you later on	19:06
lcuk	\o ttyl	19:06
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lardman	libosso-abook	19:07
DocScrutinizer	Kurppa_: so your explanations might be perfectly correct for MS based USB host systems	19:07
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lardman	jonaskoe1ker: http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_5_api_documentation/	19:07
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Kurppa_	jonaskoe1ker: are you using PR1.2?	19:08
jonaskoe1ker	PR1.2?	19:08
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Kurppa_	Never mind. I just didn't understand correctly.	19:09
lardman	hmm, has sb moved to pr1.2 libs now, so nothing can be installed?	19:09
lardman	or rather s/sb/sb rootfs	19:09
DocScrutinizer	jonaskoe1ker: I found contactinfos pkg yesterday in the repos. It's supposed to provide access to contacts database via dbus. Alas I wasn't able to find a decent API description	19:10
jonaskoe1ker	no sysfs'ish interface?	19:10
DocScrutinizer	nope	19:10
jonaskoe1ker	I mean the g--damn phone runs unix. Everything is a file. Lines of text. That sort of... gah... :\	19:10
DocScrutinizer	it's a clib interface	19:11
lardman	there is code floating about, in fact there's some on my webpage to see which contacts are online	19:11
lardman	you could use something similar and remember the facebook/etc. ids	19:11
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DocScrutinizer	jonaskoe1ker: http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Using_Generic_Platform_Components/Using_Address_Book_API http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/5.0-final/libosso-abook/OssoABookContact.html	19:13
lardman	praise be to the FSM, selector is already available in extras!	19:13
Kurppa_	Selector?	19:14
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lardman	gst input selector element	19:15
Kurppa_	(can't find anything about it on google)	19:15
lardman	http://www.gstreamer.net/data/doc/gstreamer/head/gst-plugins-bad-plugins/html/gst-plugins-bad-plugins-input-selector.html	19:15
lardman	is good, need to have file and video src for barcode pipeline	19:16
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lardman	and having done nothing on this for a month or so, I think I should pull my finger out and get it released	19:16
lardman	though with the autobuilder building for pr 1.2 (afaiu), I may have chosen the wrong time	19:16
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mortal	what do the different wlan power saving levels do on os2008?	19:20
mortal	like if I have the middle one, what will it do?	19:20
mortal	the highest one did not work well	19:20
lardman	use more power	19:21
lardman	;)	19:21
lardman	though some routers don't like the power saving methods it uses, so you have to dial it back	19:21
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lardman	what exactly the methods are, I can't remember	19:22
DocScrutinizer	MUHAHAHA reboot on plugging laptop USB to the device	19:22
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RST38h	so, what rebooted? laptop or the tablet?	19:22
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DocScrutinizer	tablet of course	19:23
DocScrutinizer	:-P	19:23
* RST38h once again notices how slow App Manager is		19:23
lardman	RST38h: is that because it's been updating for the last two weeks? ;)	19:24
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RST38h	lardman: Naah, it is just naturally like that	19:25
RST38h	lardman: Megabytes of repo indices do not help either	19:25
lardman	I think the update strategy could also be improved	19:25
lardman	i.e. do it while the list is still present	19:25
DocScrutinizer	bootcount:3, bootreason:sw_rst	19:26
lardman	and even work out which packages need to be removed/added behind the scenes so there is less waiting around	19:26
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DocScrutinizer	~praise cmdline execution widget	19:27
infobot	All hail cmdline execution widget!	19:27
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DocScrutinizer	tzz, TV takinghead: "sleep faster tonight!"	19:29
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DocScrutinizer	+l	19:31
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DocScrutinizer	is it just me to feel it's kinda silly Nokia not even bothered to create a whatever rudimentary Nokiasuite for Linux Desktop hosts, though the device is Linux?	19:38
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derf	'The video shows that the Predators invented the "slide to unlock" feature circa 1987.'	19:38
Raveesh	Hi all, I've got a question regarding the GSoC. I've put up a project suggestion on the site and it appears in the list, but I wanted to ask if we're required to provide a more "formal" application of sorts, or is it sufficient that the project appears there.	19:38
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N900evil_	DocScrutinizer, it is handy. I've gotten a desktop widget to set the backlight to '2' (very dim) when clikcked.	19:42
Kurppa_	DocScrutinizer: it's not just you..	19:42
Kurppa_	They even have a cross platform GUI toolkit for that.	19:43
Kurppa_	sigh	19:43
DocScrutinizer	heh, I guess it's called Qt?	19:43
Kurppa_	Yes. Yes it is..	19:43
DocScrutinizer	N900evil_: good idea. Found it quite annoying to swing from menu to submenu to subsub quite some times. E.g. for switchin backlight to 'always on'	19:48
RST38h	~	19:49
DocScrutinizer	RST38h: ~~ ?	19:49
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derf	〜	19:50
DocScrutinizer	duh	19:50
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DocScrutinizer	derf: what's‮that	19:52
DocScrutinizer	¿	19:52
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ShadowJK	docscrutinizer: I'd hope we'd get away from the 1990s with special sofware for each device, and support standard protocols ;(	19:55
derf	DocScrutinizer: http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/301c/index.htm	19:55
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range	∾ is the small brother, I guess ...	19:57
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DocScrutinizer	ShadowJK: ack. anyway some 'conduits' might be needed, even while clinging to standards as much as possible. I can live without a Nokia wrapper around xterm ssh, and sftp. But the approach to 'ship with' Windoze support, and forget about Linux, well that's stupid anyway	19:58
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DocScrutinizer	s/Linux/Linux&Mac	20:02
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DocScrutinizer	N900evil: any idea how to set Simple Brightness App to 'keep display on', via cmdline?	20:06
N900evil	nope, sorry.	20:06
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ShadowJK	I thought the windows softwaredidnt work either, atleast people whine about N900 Ovi Suite support all the fucking time	20:07
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Kurppa_	Nope, it doesn't work.	20:09
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RST38h	Ovi Suite is a clusterfuck, has been this way for years	20:09
RST38h	Converting it to Java at some point obviously did not help it any	20:10
Kurppa_	You install PC suite, it doesn't work and says you need to install Ovi suite. Ovi suite removes PC suite when you click OK and starts installing. After it's started up, it says your phone is not supported.	20:10
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Kurppa_	You try to remove Ovi suite to get even some of the functionality back that PC suite had. Ovi suite uninstaller keeps crashing so it can't be uninstalled.	20:11
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Kurppa_	Then you're just screwed.	20:11
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Kurppa_	And you have rebooted your PC about 3 times during all this.	20:12
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RST38h	Why are you forgetting 6-7 background programs it installs on Windows?	20:12
RST38h	That will now run on startup	20:12
Kurppa_	Got to have some daemons. They're nice.	20:13
* DocScrutinizer facepalms		20:14
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dmj726_n900	try ubuntu for charging?	20:16
* dmj726_n900 is half serious		20:16
Kurppa_	VMWare Ubuntu for charging.	20:17
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Shapeshifter	mhh, I just tried sudo reboot and it seems to be working allright. Is this the proper way of rebooting maemo?	20:25
Shapeshifter	and, is it coupled to rootsh being installed?	20:25
Shapeshifter	I'm not sure. someone just asked me how to reboot the device from CLI and I just tried this.	20:25
nidO	should be a perfectly clean way to do it	20:27
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Kurppa_	Beats pulling out the battery.	20:28
nidO	you could just skip a call with shutdown -r now though	20:29
Shapeshifter	nidO: meh :P	20:29
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corecode_	i wonder...	20:34
corecode_	how do i package upstart scripts properly	20:34
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lovelyboy	Hi, I want to embed Python in C app, I added the header file #include <Python.h>. But how to link it with gcc?	20:36
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corecode_	does it work in linux?	20:37
lovelyboy	I think so	20:37
corecode_	can you make sure?	20:38
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jensp	Hey, flash stopped working for me in the microb browser, any idea what I could have messed up?	20:38
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lovelyboy	corecode: not very sure about it, cause I never use Python before. But I wrote a simple helloworld.py to print "Hello, World", and I run" python helloworld.py", it works in scratchbox	20:39
jensp	When I check the Add-ons/Plugins the field is empty.	20:40
timeless_mbp	jensp: that'd be a problem...	20:41
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jensp	timeless_mbp: Any idea how to get it back? Flash doesn't seem to be in the repos.	20:42
timeless_mbp	it isn't	20:42
timeless_mbp	you're not supposed to delete it ;-)	20:42
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timeless_mbp	add-ons/plugins is entirely empty?	20:43
jensp	I didn't do so conciously...	20:43
timeless_mbp	i have 5 things, including 'default plug-in'	20:43
jensp	yep	20:43
timeless_mbp	cat ~/.mozilla/microb/pluginreg.dat	20:45
jensp	timeless_mbp: http://dpaste.com/176760/	20:47
corecode_	lovelyboy: what i'm getting at is, you should try it in linux first before you try it in maemo	20:48
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timeless_mbp	did you do anything stupid lately? :)	20:49
corecode_	hmm	20:50
jensp	timeless_mbp: obviously yes, but I'm not sure what ;) the .mozilla/plugins directory contains the files btw	20:50
corecode_	how do i start upstart tasks from a debian package?	20:50
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timeless_mbp	that file shouldn't be anywhere near that empty	20:51
timeless_mbp	it should be ~48 lines	20:51
timeless_mbp	[re]moving /usr/lib/browser/plugins counts as stupid fwiw :)	20:51
timeless_mbp	ls /usr/lib/browser/plugins	20:51
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jensp	timeless_mbp: http://dpaste.com/ wtf?!	20:52
jensp	woops sry	20:53
jensp	http://dpaste.com/176763/	20:53
hcarrega	llkik	20:53
hcarrega	7 mil carcaças	20:53
MohammadAG	timeless_mbp, shouldn't the files that's empty in his case be regenerated if it was deleted?	20:54
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MohammadAG	s/files/file/	20:55
infobot	MohammadAG meant: timeless_mbp, shouldn't the file that's empty in his case be regenerated if it was deleted?	20:55
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jensp	MohammadAG: I guess it would be if my plugins wouldn't consist of a weird loop of symlinks oO	20:56
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MohammadAG	jensp, I have many symlinks in /usr/lib	20:57
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jensp	MohammadAG: Yeah, but as you can see in my paste http://dpaste.com/176763/ the symlinks are pointing to themselves	20:57
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MohammadAG	jensp, again, I have many symlinks pointing to themselves	20:59
MohammadAG	sec	20:59
jensp	ok... seems weird to me.	20:59
MohammadAG	actually, the browser plugins aren't	20:59
FIQ	i've 98% of my rootfs filled	21:00
corecode_	i don't think maemo is actually using upstart	21:00
corecode_	seriously	21:00
MohammadAG	jensp, http://dpaste.com/176764/	21:00
MohammadAG	FIQ get out of -devel	21:00
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MohammadAG	I think the repository links for -devel should be removed from the wiki	21:01
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corecode_	why?	21:01
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jensp	MohammadAG: thanks, any idea how I could get those files? I just downloaded the latest maemo5 image, I'll see if I can get them extracted from there...	21:02
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MohammadAG	jensp, yes you can get them from the image, extract it using flasher-3.5 and mount the root.jffs2 file	21:03
MohammadAG	the N900 uses ubifs, so you'll need a ubifs enabled kernel on your desktop	21:03
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timeless_mbp	jensp: please figure out how you managed to convince your system to eat those files	21:04
timeless_mbp	that's obviously a bad thing	21:04
timeless_mbp	and someone should promise not to eat them	21:04
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corecode_	euhm	21:04
corecode_	upstart, anybody?	21:05
Kurppa_	Heh. That was actually info I needed at work. Thanks MohammadAG!	21:05
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MohammadAG	lol np :)	21:05
jensp	timeless_mbp: I am, currently looking through my shells history, but I can't find anything suspicious.	21:06
MohammadAG	~ping	21:08
infobot	~pong	21:08
timeless_mbp	jensp: i'm more interested in your package install/update history	21:08
timeless_mbp	i'd be surprised if you personally shot yourself in your leg w/o remembering doing something like it	21:08
timeless_mbp	i mean, it's possible to have serious amnesia after a self inflicted wound	21:08
timeless_mbp	but...	21:08
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DocScrutinizer	timeless_mbp: like drilling a hole into your skull?	21:11
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DocScrutinizer	jensp: you're sure /usr/lib/browser/plugins/ isn't itself just a symlink to ~/.mozilla/plugins ?	21:16
DocScrutinizer	ahh,nevermind. 'disbaled/' has a different timestamp	21:17
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jensp	got it to work with the plugins extracted from the image, thanks everyone	21:25
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DocScrutinizer	timeless: if you'd suggest how to get HAM log via cmdline... A 'history \| grep apt \| pastebinit ' seems simple enough	21:37
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Kurppa_	I hope thdere will be some kind of new battery technology available soon. I've almost emptied the battery 4 times today. :-)	21:42
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Kurppa_	That "5 minutes to full charge" technology that was in the news a couple of years ago would work for me as well.	21:44
DocScrutinizer	Kurppa_: I wonder why you even removed the device from charger at all :-P	21:44
Kurppa_	I'm finnish so I'm chatting from sauna. :-P	21:45
Kurppa_	And the cord is so short..	21:45
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DocScrutinizer	Kurppa_: 5min-charging never will work, thanks to china and EU making usb-charging mandatory. You need >1h to charge a battery over USB, simple because you can't have more than 1A of current on the plugs afaik	21:46
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Kurppa_	Ah, there's some kind of upper cap on the charging current then?	21:47
DocScrutinizer	on the plug current, yes	21:47
Kurppa_	Or is the 1A just a limitation of current li-ion/li-po battery technology.	21:47
Kurppa_	I see. But laws can be changed.	21:48
DocScrutinizer	nope, you can charge LiIon much faster, depending on particular cell technology	21:48
atiti	and 500mah limit for usb :p	21:48
Kurppa_	And I'm sure there will be tech workarounds for laws, when the technology is ready for it.	21:48
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Kurppa_	Yeah. I guess some part of the 1A limit is also because they don't want the mobile phone getting too hot.	21:50
Kurppa_	Would suck if it was burning hot in your pocket after charging.	21:51
DocScrutinizer	nah, that's solvable	21:51
Kurppa_	By a huge heatsink on the side of the phone.	21:52
wazd	charging for a theme is kinda lame	21:52
Kurppa_	Capitalism.	21:52
wazd	charging for actions that are described in details, like theme packaging, is lame^2	21:53
DocScrutinizer	by designing a charger control that has high efficiency, or by completely doing the regulator business in charger rather than in phone (the motorola way iirc)	21:53
wazd	I was talking bout it at the FRUCT conference - OSS is "for fun"	21:54
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wazd	if you don't have fun by doing themes - then don't do it	21:54
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wazd	Arkenoi, do you have some kind of invisibility spell or something? :D	21:56
DocScrutinizer	BS! I'm even paying the neighbor's kid to maw my lawn	21:56
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Kurppa_	I guess for example those RC car chargers do huge currents on those li-ion batteries	21:56
Kurppa_	I wish I had a lawn. I'd go roll on it right now.	21:57
DocScrutinizer	it's described very well how to do it, so is paying for it lame? It's not fun to me, so the lawn shouldn't see mawing at all?	21:57
Kurppa_	Winter. Bah.	21:57
wazd	DocScrutinizer: well, mawing is work	21:58
wazd	DocScrutinizer: charging 10 bucks for clicking 1 button - lame :)	21:59
DocScrutinizer	PAYING 10 bucks is lame	21:59
DocScrutinizer	charging 10 bucks is perfectly ok	21:59
wazd	why?	22:00
DocScrutinizer	need explanation for the obvious?	22:01
wazd	charging old people 100 bucks to, well, check their e-mail is ok? :)	22:01
wazd	yes, please	22:02
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Kurppa_	Asking the price is ok. Paying it is stupid.	22:04
wazd	and btw	22:05
DocScrutinizer	exactly. Unless you got a monopoly	22:05
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Kurppa_	But believe or not, many people make their living by doing just that. Take for example Nokia's Vertu phones ;-)	22:05
wazd	I don't think that use of MADDE to make money is not violating EULA	22:05
DocScrutinizer	wazd: duh. I think you're seriously mistaken here	22:07
wazd	DocScrutinizer: where exactly? :)	22:07
Kurppa_	Morally, conning old people is wrong.	22:09
DocScrutinizer	wazd: with EULA. Please quote	22:09
wazd	DocScrutinizer: well, right now I don't have time to dig thru all that infinite papers, but I'll ask Daniel later	22:11
DocScrutinizer	well I've seen EULAs for compilers forbidding their use by military or in weapon development, but honestly I doubt MADDE would forbid creating commercial packages, that's not exactly what Nokia is after	22:12
* Stskeeps doubts too		22:14
DocScrutinizer	except of course if they possibly plan to have a commercial version of MADDE for companies to pay for it, so they can create their profit	22:14
DocScrutinizer	(see Qt)	22:14
DocScrutinizer	use free MADDE for free products, pay for commercial grade MADDE to create commercial products	22:16
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* DocScrutinizer curses free-as-in-beer mentality		22:18
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DocScrutinizer	"heh, it's just like hitting a button, and I'd do that for fun. So while I don't bother to actually do, how may you dare to charge me for that?!?"	22:19
DocScrutinizer	you should give me a buck so you're allowed to do that fun!	22:20
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javispedro	having fun? I have that patented!	22:22
* SpeedEvil ponders a wonderojus world where you can ask a browser 'dump page related state to swap atomically'		22:23
* SpeedEvil has 6 windows open, and it's getting slow.		22:23
Kurppa_	You can always ask.	22:23
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* DocScrutinizer heard some weeks ago someone patented patenting patent patenting, so your patent is void, javispedro X-P		22:25
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Kurppa_	Phone almost out of battery. Where is my lifeline?	22:29
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Kurppa_	Anybody know if there is an app for adjusting headphones 'gain'?	22:30
Kurppa_	Right now if I use headphones, the incoming call volume is so loud it breaks my ears.	22:31
* DocScrutinizer notices the above scheme resembles to selling a fence to be painted by the meter to eager painters		22:31
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Kurppa_	I have to keep it loud so I can hear from the speakers that the phone ringing. They share the same volume setting.	22:31
DocScrutinizer	'hey, dude, it's FUN'	22:31
jatt	in xchat when i click on a link the maemo browser is not launched how do I configure this?	22:32
SpeedEvil	jatt, wfm	22:32
ptl	~wfm	22:32
infobot	it has been said that wfm is (Wired For Management Baseline) This is an Intel hardware specification that is designed to allow for compliance with easier management of desktop PCs in a networked environment. The specification calls for computers to be compatible with a pre-boot protocol that can be used to update the system or perform other management options. Also, the computer must be compatible with network/desktop management applications.. Works ...	22:32
* ptl wonders how xchat might have a pre-boot protocol that can be used toupdate the system!		22:33
* ptl considers using xchat instead of flasher		22:33
jatt	what is wfm? a command I need to run from the shell?	22:34
ptl	beats me too	22:34
ptl	write the fucking manual?	22:34
luke-jr	WFM = Works For Me	22:34
Kurppa_	Never heard.	22:34
ptl	oh.	22:34
DocScrutinizer	jatt: click and hold	22:34
SpeedEvil	works for me	22:34
luke-jr	in other words, "you are delusional"	22:34
ptl	acronyms!	22:34
luke-jr	or "it's in your head"	22:34
SpeedEvil	naah.	22:35
Kurppa_	WFM on my PC.	22:35
ptl	lemme check it here	22:35
SpeedEvil	just saying it works for me. Not that it might not fail for others.	22:35
jatt	;) ok will try holding a little bit more	22:36
SpeedEvil	do yolu get a dialog on clicking?	22:36
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DocScrutinizer	me? yes	22:36
DocScrutinizer	context menu	22:36
ptl	select it	22:36
ptl	'open link in browser'	22:36
ptl	then microb starts	22:36
ptl	worked ok	22:37
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ptl-n900	yeah, it did	22:37
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ptl-n900	that's all, folks! Test complete.	22:37
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jatt	yes it's working I wasn't holding long enough, thanks guys	22:37
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DocScrutinizer	sure, doing that all the time	22:37
DocScrutinizer	yw	22:37
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Stskeeps	moo wazd2	22:46
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wazd2	Stskeeps: heya :)	22:46
Stskeeps	how's it going?	22:47
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Arkenklo	that's odd, I installed an application and got .2 MB free space in /	22:49
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Kurppa_	You could try apt-get autoremove, but even that has a bug which prevents you from doing it if you have too little space.	22:53
Kurppa_	Free some up soon. I	22:53
Arkenklo	no I mean the free space increased by .2 MB	22:54
Kurppa_	've seen things getting truncated from /etc if there is too little space.	22:54
Kurppa_	Ah.	22:54
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godrik	hi guys	22:54
Arkenklo	which is kinda odd, but I don't complain	22:55
godrik	does anybody know how to get a transparent window/widget ?	22:55
Kurppa_	Well, it's an on-the-fly compressing filesystem. Maybe that has something to do with it. Or maybe HAM did some cleanup.	22:55
godrik	I am writing a home pluging for diablo	22:55
jatt	so do apt-get and ipkg both work on the n900?	22:55
godrik	I ma using a gtktextview but that's not transparent and hide my backgronud	22:55
SpeedEvil	sync will free deleted space	22:56
godrik	any idea ?	22:56
jatt	which is the default package system?	22:56
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wazd2	Stskeeps: well, FRUCT party time is over, back to work :)	22:58
Stskeeps	hehe	23:00
Stskeeps	any interesting events from there?	23:00
GAN900	WTF	23:00
GAN900	Off Topic just went waaay off into left field.	23:00
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Shapeshifter	mh. I feel there's something wrong with how my n900 camera takes pictures in the dark. they're totally green	23:01
Shapeshifter	and the preview isn't. just the picture taken	23:01
Shapeshifter	I tried other white balances but they're all green	23:01
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Shapeshifter	and way too dark. I think it's taking the picture not while the flash is on	23:02
Shapeshifter	exposure is a 0	23:02
joga	hmm..	23:03
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joga	I started the phone app and at the same time opened the keyboard, now I can't click anything on the desktop	23:03
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: aeen that, but seemed to me to be fixed with pr1.1.1	23:03
joga	or, uh, I can click on a contact though	23:04
joga	but no shortcuts or widgets are working	23:04
joga	and things seem to break as I use them, I can access one thing once and then it doesn't open any more until I try again a bit later or something :)	23:05
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joga	is there some process I can kill or something?	23:06
DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: also I can't reproduce the issue here	23:07
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joga	what happens if I kill hildon-home or hildon-desktop, will they restart? :)	23:08
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DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: what I noticed though is: autofocus on <50cm is severely flawed by overexposure, in automatic mode. Works in macro mode	23:08
Kurppa_	Do you guys have the same problem as me? When I take pictures in dark with Camera, the top right corner of the image is bluish because the shiny border around the lens cover is reflecting the flash back to the lens?	23:08
Kurppa_	I'm just wondering if that's a hardware bug, or if it's just my device.	23:08
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Kurppa_	joga: I think hildon-home at least restarts. Killing hildon-desktop might reboot the device.	23:09
DocScrutinizer	Kurppa_: known issue. There's even a bug ticket for it iirc	23:09
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Kurppa_	Not 100 percent sure on the current implementation.	23:10
joga	Kurppa_: ok, let's see :)	23:10
Kurppa_	I see.	23:10
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Shapeshifter	Kurppa_: black marker can fix it	23:10
andre__	Kurppa_, yes. https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8168	23:10
povbot	Bug 8168: N900 photo quality is poor--particulary bad light handling	23:10
Shapeshifter	haven't tried it though as I don't really use the camera that often	23:10
Kurppa_	Yeah, that's what I was thinking.	23:10
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* DocScrutinizer grabs the marker :-)		23:11
Kurppa_	Company phone though. Need to ask if I'm allowed to paint this thing :-)	23:11
joga	Kurppa_: hildon-home restarted and now shortcuts work, but apparently some widgets disappeared too :)	23:11
Kurppa_	Pink.	23:11
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DocScrutinizer	should fix it before it starts to get annoying	23:11
Kurppa_	They will come back.	23:11
Martiini	Does anyone from Nokia Finland ever come here ?? I want to ask them something	23:11
Kurppa_	Just pan the desktop, that might help.	23:11
Kurppa_	Martiini: yes.	23:12
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joga	Kurppa_: nah, they're gone :) but that's ok, maybe they would be there if I rebooted	23:12
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SpeedEvil	!bug 6584	23:12
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6584 GPS geotagged pictures truncate precision of GPS reading (0 decimal places)	23:12
andre__	Martiini: but maybe anyone not from Nokia Finland might also know the answer?	23:12
joga	or knew how to kick it..	23:12
Kurppa_	Yeah, reboot at least fixes things.	23:12
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Martiini	just want to hear from Nokia people if they are going to release something like ... an iPhone with Android	23:14
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joga	why would anyone do that? ;)	23:14
Kurppa_	There are Nokians lurking here, but many that know the answer to your problem might not be reading this channel at 23:14 (11 pm) on a saturday evening.	23:14
Martiini	cause ... n900 isnt even close to iphone .. and .. maemo is not as good as Android	23:14
SpeedEvil	Martiini, what do you mean?	23:14
joga	hehe	23:14
Stskeeps	Martiini: are you a troll? :P	23:14
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Kurppa_	Or might not have the permission to answer that question :-)	23:15
Arkenklo	Martiini: they're not. Sorry to spoil it for ya	23:15
Martiini	I mean .. nokia phones suck and they need to up their game	23:15
ptl	wow.	23:15
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joga	Martiini: how long have you used the n900?	23:15
Martiini	unless they intend to release somethig like .. iphone + android	23:15
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Kurppa_	Martiini: it's been like that for 10 years. Buy the new HTC phone.	23:15
* ptl wonders why is this troll still alive.		23:15
joga	:)	23:16
Martiini	I dont have an n900 and not going to buy one	23:16
Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: how it looks taken with n900: http://stuff.moritzg.ch/20100327_011.jpg (WAY to dark and green), how it looks on the screen, while taking the picture: http://stuff.moritzg.ch/DSC09997.JPG (looks fine) and how it should look (taken with my sony pocket): http://stuff.moritzg.ch/DSC09992.JPG	23:16
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ptl	Martiini: well, goodbye then.	23:16
ptl	Martiini: or did you come here for trolling?	23:16
Shapeshifter	mhhhhhh	23:16
Shapeshifter	I think that's my finger there	23:16
Shapeshifter	>:(	23:16
Kurppa_	I agree with him though. Don't buy it if you don't want to hack your phone.	23:17
Shapeshifter	ah no it isnt	23:17
Shapeshifter	it's my mouse pad.	23:17
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Kurppa_	If you just want a working phone, you can get it for much cheaper :-)	23:17
Shapeshifter	lol I was thinking I was just covering the flash. which would have explained the darkness. But I just redid the picture. it comes out green and dark.	23:17
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Arkenklo	I admire apple for being able to be so incredibly restrained with their products, I wouldn't stand making a product with so much unused potential	23:18
jatt	lol that guy comparing the n900 with the iphone	23:19
joga	Kurppa_: after reboot they weren't back, but I put them back again :)	23:20
Kurppa_	But it was supposed to be the iPhone killer!	23:20
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DocScrutinizer	Shapeshifter: ok, it took another few shots and can confirm now	23:20
Kurppa_	Ah. Reboot always seemed to fix it for me.	23:20
jatt	the ipad?	23:20
DocScrutinizer	at least for macro, but I guess won't change for standard pics	23:21
joga	Kurppa_: maybe if I had rebooted before trying to fix it myself by killing it, it would have worked :)	23:21
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DocScrutinizer	s/it/I	23:21
ptl	note to self: collect troll energy from this Martiini guy and after that go around iphone forums trolling back, spending the energy for the greater good.	23:21
Kurppa_	You'd just be increasing the misery in the world.	23:22
Arkenklo	Martiini: what's your favourite forum?	23:22
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SpeedEvil	4chan, I guess.	23:22
ptl	MSDN	23:22
* SpeedEvil ponders 4chan browser app.		23:23
Arkenklo	message board =/ forum	23:23
Kurppa_	Maye he's a maemo fanatic posing as an apple fanatic and is trying to get a flame war started.	23:23
SpeedEvil	A scrolling desktop feed of /b/	23:23
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Kurppa_	What am I saying.	23:23
ptl	Kurppa_: yeah, maybe he's trying to collect arguments to use elsewhere.	23:23
ptl	like I said... Troll energy	23:24
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Arkenklo	SpeedEvil: or you could just create a forkbomb and get the same battery killing results :D	23:24
ptl	troll energy is what trolltech (now nokia) used to make QT and Maemo.	23:24
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jatt	does the maemo browser catch its results? it looks to me it fetches pages from the net everytime	23:25
DocScrutinizer	incrdible. I haven't noticed any kick msg	23:25
jatt	i mean cache	23:25
jatt	not catch	23:26
dmj726_n9001	there is a cache size limit.	23:26
dmj726_n9001	so yes an no	23:26
dmj726_n9001	you can increase the cache size.	23:26
dmj726_n9001	I've heard the ideal size is 40 MB	23:27
jatt	when i go to the history and select the most recent entry it looks as the page is fetched again	23:27
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Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: I couldn't even find an open bug report for this. I wonder if I should report it.	23:28
DocScrutinizer	green img? sure	23:28
DocScrutinizer	I'll confirm	23:28
DocScrutinizer	you already got good documentation to show	23:29
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DocScrutinizer	tbh without that I never had noticed, as I'm really not in photgraphy that much	23:29
DocScrutinizer	now it's quite annoying	23:29
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Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: I rarely use the camera; for my needs it's waaay too bad. People are really excited about the image quality and it might be good "for a phone" but it's horrible imo. but stuff should at least be visible and bright and not green and dark ;)	23:31
Martiini	ok, so .. to me it seems Android gets more development time than Maemo ...	23:31
Kurppa_	Can you link the bug here when you're done?	23:31
* DocScrutinizer wonders if the flash LEDs' colo temperature is maybe rising on flash, compared to torch mode		23:31
Martiini	so .. Maemo is based on Debian and you can "hack" it like any linux distro .. Anroid and Iphone get more development code	23:31
Martiini	am I right?	23:31
Martiini	Im correct	23:32
Kurppa_	Bingo.	23:32
dmj726_n9001	Andorid and ithing get more dedicated apps	23:32
Arkenklo	Martiini: the first part is correct, the second is irrelevant	23:32
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: ^^^ any thoughts?	23:32
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jatt	the kernel has a development time of nearly decades	23:32
dmj726_n9001	n900 get linux apps in hours/days	23:32
jatt	maemo benefits from this	23:33
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer, not impossible	23:33
DocScrutinizer	""white ballance done in torch mode doesn't fit for flashlight pictures""	23:33
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Martiini	but .. one would not call n900+maemo "A PHONE" .. when you can call an iphone or HTC a "smartphone"	23:35
Martiini	thats what I try to sa	23:35
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: My wild guess would be characteristics of the yellow flourescent change on higher energy pumping blue levels	23:35
dmj726_n9001	Let me know when firefox mobile with flash and ad block plus hits the app store for free.	23:35
Stskeeps	Martiini: talk.maemo.org sounds like a perfect place for oyu	23:35
Stskeeps	:P	23:35
Proteous	I just correct my n900 pictures in photoshop	23:36
Arkenklo	I view it as a computer with phone-like characteristics	23:36
Proteous	the flash sucks, but I rarily have lighting that is any good anyway	23:36
DocScrutinizer	Stskeeps: tmo/off_topic, to be precise	23:36
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luke-jr	Martiini: no.	23:37
DocScrutinizer	don't feed the troll!	23:38
luke-jr	Martiini: Debian and other such "distros" tend to be open source. Maemo is very much closed. Your description fits Mer and possibly MeeGo.	23:38
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Shapeshifter	DocScrutinizer: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9741	23:38
povbot	Bug 9741: Pictures taken with flash have wrong white balancing (green tint) and are too dark.	23:38
Kurppa_	If he's really from estonia, give him some credit. It's getting late there and it takes some dedication to come trolling late on saturday evening.	23:39
Kurppa_	I like the guy/gal already.	23:39
Stskeeps	he can stay if he brings cheap vodka	23:39
Stskeeps	:P	23:39
Stskeeps	;)	23:40
Proteous	heh	23:40
Kurppa_	It's all about the effort.	23:40
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Martiini	luke-jr: so .. maemo should be open source instad? .. you claim maemo is not open source?	23:42
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer, yes, plausible	23:42
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dmj726_n9001	maemo is 80 percent open source...	23:43
dmj726_n9001	not 100 percent	23:43
luke-jr	Martiini: Maemo is not open source. Fact.	23:43
luke-jr	dmj726_n9001: more like 40%	23:43
dmj726_n9001	really?	23:43
luke-jr	at least for N810/Maemo4	23:43
ali1234	even if it was only 1% it's still the 1% that you need to do anything	23:44
dmj726_n9001	I refer to fremantle	23:44
luke-jr	for now, I will need to defer to someone else as far as N900/Maemo5	23:44
luke-jr	ali1234: wrong	23:44
luke-jr	ali1234: it's the useless 1%	23:44
ali1234	luke-jr: you have a way to charge the battery without closed bins?	23:44
Kurppa_	Try getting source codes for any of the maemo 5 apps..	23:44
luke-jr	dmj726_n9001: I've heard Fremantle is more open, and I've heard it's more closed. not sure which is accurate.	23:44
Martiini	well .. whatever ... at least they have got a serious competitor in Android, iphoneOS, windows mobile etc	23:44
luke-jr	ali1234: nope.	23:44
ali1234	well then case in point	23:44
luke-jr	Martiini: where is the serious competitor? :(	23:44
luke-jr	ali1234: my point :p	23:45
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dmj726_n9001	I heard more open...the gui layers of the apps and the drivers are closed.	23:45
wazd2	Stskeeps: well, same marketing dude came again :D	23:45
luke-jr	dmj726_n9001: what's more open then?	23:45
wazd2	Stskeeps: and told that nokia cares bout russian developers and stuff :D	23:45
jatt	martini works for apple?	23:45
Martiini	when Nokia deliver an iPhone style phone with qt5 linux .. I buy one .. most definately	23:45
dmj726_n9001	I think backends stuff	23:46
luke-jr	Martiini: iPhone style = crap	23:46
Shapeshifter	xD	23:46
luke-jr	dmj726_n9001: the drivers are all I care about tbh	23:46
wazd2	Stskeeps: I can feel that care with all my body actually :D	23:46
Shapeshifter	hilarious.	23:46
dmj726_n9001	like the media player backend is open but not the gui	23:46
Shapeshifter	iphone style, as in "can only run one app at a time"	23:46
jacekowski	luke-jr: drivers can be easily reversed	23:46
Martiini	as in design	23:46
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dmj726_n9001	luke-jr...I want more driver open too	23:46
luke-jr	jacekowski: "easily"? no.	23:47
jacekowski	luke-jr: or at least made compatible with other kernels	23:47
ptl	the bad thing about all this is stablishing an iPhone as parameter.	23:47
univac	jacekowski: :o	23:47
ali1234	reversing BME would probably be quite easy, it's usespace isn't it?	23:47
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ptl	it's like windows vs. linux when the parameter is linux. You just can't win.	23:47
luke-jr	jacekowski: we have complete code for a lot of N810 hardware, but it's still expensive to port Linux to it	23:47
ptl	N900 is different. It achieves other purposes.	23:47
ptl	much better purposes.	23:47
luke-jr	ali1234: BME is quite large.	23:47
ptl	and it's open, flexible, hackable.	23:47
jacekowski	it's still a phone	23:47
jacekowski	luke-jr: but that's userland	23:48
ali1234	so? it talks d-bus or whatever, it can be traced	23:48
jacekowski	luke-jr: and can be just moved to different OS easily	23:48
luke-jr	jacekowski: no, I'm referring to driver code	23:48
Stskeeps	wazd2: you're getting thinner? :P	23:48
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luke-jr	jacekowski: "can be just moved" does not justify proprietary	23:48
* Shapeshifter wonders if the n900 will adjust the time tonight.		23:49
luke-jr	Shapeshifter: why would it?	23:49
luke-jr	daylight savings was like 2 weeks ago	23:49
Shapeshifter	luke-jr: because it knows my time zone	23:49
jacekowski	besides, unless i don't know something	23:49
wazd2	Stskeeps: yeah, and loosing hair :D	23:49
Shapeshifter	luke-jr: here it is tonight.	23:49
jacekowski	what's so complicated in BME	23:49
jacekowski	that it's huge	23:49
luke-jr	Shapeshifter: well, if it's half-sane, it uses UTC internally	23:49
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wazd2	Stskeeps: oh, and Forum.Nokia guy was hilarious	23:49
wazd2	Stskeeps: he spent 15 minutes describing all that ddp and stuff	23:50
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luke-jr	jacekowski: probably nothing	23:50
wazd2	Stskeeps: and then Vlad asked "You know that all that ddp magic doesn't actually work in Russia, right?"	23:50
luke-jr	jacekowski: if things were only as large as they needed to be, we could get by with Maemo in 16 MB RAM	23:51
ali1234	ha ha, xorg in 16mb, maybe 15 years ago...	23:51
jacekowski	well it's doing same thing	23:51
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jacekowski	but using more memory	23:51
luke-jr	jacekowski: as memory gets cheaper, it's traded in for development time	23:52
luke-jr	more abstraction, higher-level languages, etc chew up memory	23:52
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luke-jr	I reverse engineered a lot of N8x0 BMEs, but it's still huge :/	23:53
jacekowski	a lot?	23:53
jacekowski	define a lot in your case	23:54
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luke-jr	I forget, lemme look quickly	23:54
jonaskoe1ker	Hi all. I'm using the jabber conversations plugin to be available for facebook chat. Some of my contacts have jabber accounts attached to them, yet don't show as having any online/busy/etc status. How come?	23:54
jonaskoe1ker	And how do I fix this in time O(1) in the number of contacts? :)	23:55
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luke-jr	about 163 functions or so	23:55
jacekowski	and total for n8x0 is?	23:56
Kurppa_	jonaskoe1ker: do you know that they are in fact signed into facebook?	23:56
jonaskoe1ker	Kurppa_: what do you mean? "Do you know that account number ${n} exists?"?	23:56
Kurppa_	And that the account is online?	23:56
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jonaskoe1ker	Kurppa_: I know that every account has _some_ online-ness status	23:57
jonaskoe1ker	Kurppa_: I don't care what it is, I just want to see it in my contacts list	23:57
jonaskoe1ker	Kurppa_: I know that people exist on facebook, because I've befriended them there	23:57
luke-jr	jacekowski: 527	23:58
Kurppa_	I mean that for the account entry to show the facebook chat option, the contact you're trying to chat with must be online.	23:58
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Kurppa_	Maybe I misunderstood you though.	23:58
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jonaskoe1ker	Kurppa_: you might have. I have my facebook friend "Alice" on my contacts list. There's no green circle, nor a white circle with a cross, nor anything else next to her name.	23:59

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