IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2010-03-27

user_hi people00:00
DocScrutinizer51user_: hi. Any more intelectual stuff to contribute?00:00
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iBobi keep reading stuff regarding disabling the unstable testing repos. after installing software from them00:01
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iBobits safe to keep them if i dont apt-get upgrade, right?00:01
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odin_well it makes sense to release the 1.2 SDK earlier than the N900 images, due to the breaking ABI changes for Qt00:02
ShadowJKWell they'd also give you upgrades to software you've already installed, untested upgrades :)00:02
adalalhey, anyone know how to get the gps on the n900 to transfer data over bluetooth serial?00:02
ShadowJKand it eats diskspace just to have them enabled00:02
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Corsacadalal: I think using mini-gpsd should do the trick00:02
odin_I can only support this action, so by the time the flashable image is ready there is a change all the application space is too00:02
user_i need an information00:02
lcukdoes that happen00:02
lcukif i install app from extras00:03
lcukthen enable -devel00:03
iBobShadowJK : i gui package manger shows all the updates but i install them one by one.00:03
lcukand theres a newer/unstable version in -devel00:03
lcukdoes it offer an upgrade?00:03
user_do u know when can we get the PR1.2 update???00:03
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Corsacuser_: when it's ready is the more appropriate answer00:03
iBobuser_ : when its released.00:04
user_yes but when :(00:04
adalalCorsac: oh right00:04
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iBobuser_ :
user_one more question.... a java me gui for fremantle???00:05
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user_valid java me i mean not microemu or demos versions00:05
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c-s-b-n900hello docscrutinizer00:07
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adalalCorsac: it has missing depencies (bluez-util-test and python2.5-gnome)00:09
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Corsacadalal: I have to admit I didn't tested it myself, it was just a random idea00:10
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adalalright, can gpsd be transferred over bluetooth?00:10
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ma3mopeople... one more question... will be possible to add 3g videocall features in the n900? maybe in future? what do you think boput it???00:10
Corsacma3mo: I think it's in PR1.200:11
ShadowJKI doubt it00:11
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ShadowJKI think 1.2 will have Google Talk video calls, and that'll be it :P00:12
ma3mocorsac its voip call that00:12
iBobfuck it, we dont even have such a service here , hehe00:12
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ma3moyes gtalk and more videocall plugins for these servers00:12
ShadowJK3G anything is a big task, because 3g is almost everything that internet does, except it's all different and doesn't work on anything else or anywhere else... lots of effort and code to write from scratch00:12
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iBobi'd say they should work on getting the menus a smooth as possible00:13
iBobnot as good as the iphone , but as good as possible :P00:14
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ma3mook..... no 3g calls... java support??? when???00:15
* lbt wonders why fremantle doesn't use ntp...00:15
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DocScrutinizer51that'd imply "good" being an absolute metric00:15
ShadowJK3g voice calls, sure :)00:15
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CorsacShadowJK: I already tried jabber calls, and it worked fine, though video failed00:15
Corsac(on 1.1)00:15
ShadowJKI doubt anyone will do 3g video calls00:15
ShadowJKand java will probably never have a user friendly solution...00:16
CorsacShadowJK: why not?00:16
ShadowJKthat'd require giving Sun.. err... Oracle lots of money00:16
ma3mowhat a shame of phone00:16
Corsac(if the carrier allows it)00:16
DocScrutinizer51ma3mo: stop trolling00:16
ma3moi have i stuck pixel one bright spot on display00:16
iBobma3mo : respect y00:17
ShadowJKCorsac, mostly because it's behind some 5000-page spec from the 3g consortium..00:17
CorsacShadowJK: eh?00:17
CorsacShadowJK: I meant jabber video call on 3g network00:17
ma3mosorry what isad???00:17
CorsacShadowJK: were you referring to something else?00:17
ShadowJKCorsac, jabber is internet00:18
ShadowJKCorsac, I was referring to 3g video calls00:18
ma3moshame couse its a shame device00:18
ma3moi m real not a dreamer00:18
iBobma3mo : would you like some apple pie ?00:18
CorsacShadowJK: 3g usually means data, and inet00:18
DocScrutinizer51ma3mo: internal QA rules of Nokia require zero pixel-error screen for N90000:18
CorsacShadowJK: but yeah I'm not sure we'll see operator-only video stuff00:18
ShadowJKCorsac, yes but I specifically meant 3g video calls00:18
ShadowJKnot internet video calls using 3g for internet connectivity.00:18
Corsacyeah, sorry00:18
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DocScrutinizer51ma3mo: so instead of crying here you should either get a error free device, or be a little more constructive00:20
DocScrutinizer51maybe both00:20
ma3moi have 1 dead pixel and one bright spot on lcd... no java... no jre... no 3g calls... no irda ftp between devices... no options to take pictures from frontal camera... this is constructive i m real i m talking about this device00:20
iBobwell, i enjoy running aircrack wireshark and lighttpd on my mobile phone00:21
iBobstill has some bugs? yes. do I give a fuck ? no.00:21
ShadowJKma3mo, java, jre, 3g video calls and irda was never part of the N900 specs :)00:21
ShadowJKthe n900 doesn't even have the hardware for irda00:22
ma3moit has00:22
ma3moit has irda port00:22
Myrttiirda? who the fuck uses irda for anything these days? apart from emulating a Logitech harmony00:22
ma3modisassembly and have a look00:22
DocScrutinizerma3mo: no, you're not constructive. We all *know* there's no java (or we know why you think there isn't), and we know there's no IrDA00:22
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ShadowJKma3mo, it's not irda00:22
ma3mowhat is it???00:22
DocScrutinizerso wtf should we benefit from your wining00:22
ShadowJKma3mo, it's CIR00:23
ma3moshad what is it00:23
ShadowJKma3mo, if you disassemble the N900 you'll notice that it has 3 IR emitters :)00:23
ShadowJKNone of them can do irda00:23
ma3moc??? Infra Red??00:23
iBobma3mo has to be one of those windows mobile users!00:23
DocScrutinizerma3mo: and no, it has NO irda port00:23
ma3moi was symbian00:23
iBobwe dont need an irda port!00:23
ma3mowm too00:23
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ShadowJKma3mo, one of the emitters at the top can be used to send signals that control televisions and such... with the right apps installed00:24
iBobi wana see you guys port wireshark to wm :P00:24
KegetysI wonder if the proximity sensor could be used to receive IR as well :P00:24
MyrttiI wana see you guys spit out uncut diamonds at my command00:24
ma3mogot it00:25
DocScrutinizerKegetys: too slow probably00:25
ma3mobut java????00:25
ShadowJKma3mo, did you see java support listed on the box?00:25
ShadowJKma3mo, or in the specs?00:25
ma3monooo i want java :)00:25
ma3mobut i see umts00:26
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DocScrutinizerma3mo: if you need java, go and start a project to port it. I mean that's LINUX! you know that OS don't ya?00:26
iBobma3mo : are you sure you dont want some pie ?00:26
ma3mo???? they havre to write umts signal00:26
ShadowJKma3mo, it does00:27
DocScrutinizerma3mo: please stop acting like a troll00:27
ma3moi dont want appleeeeeeeeeee i get it couse it was with qwerty etc00:27
iBobDocScrutinizer : you want him to port java ?00:27
iBobsuggest that he reads the specs next time.00:27
DocScrutinizernah, not really00:27
Shapeshifteroh noes java.00:28
ma3mobe real i spent 600 euros for a brick hahahaha00:28
iBobDocScrutinizer : no, its ok- he can try. :P00:28
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iBobma3mo : is that in any way our problem ? :P00:28
Shapeshifterma3mo: you DID read the feature list before buying it, right?00:28
* DocScrutinizer throws a real brick in ma3mo general direction00:29
ma3moi diiiiiid00:29
ma3moi love this device00:29
iBobok then,00:29
iBobhave a nice day,00:29
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ds3Wow... disabling 3G makes a major difference in battery life00:29
DocScrutinizer*stop trolling*00:29
ma3mobut it has stupid things inside00:29
Shapeshifterma3mo: and it said "java" and "irda ftp betweent devices" (whatever that exactly is supposed to be)?00:29
Myrttithere's plenty of people ready to buy it off your hands if you're not satisfied with it00:29
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DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: he means obex push00:30
ma3mookkk i stop to troll... can u send me a valid link for java???00:30
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ds3anyone remember some of the old bandwidth on demand technologies used with ISDN?00:30
Myrttima3mo: so when are you going to stop trolling exactly?00:30
Myrtticoz I didn't see you stop00:31
ShadowJKds3, 3g is bad for IM and such :)00:31
ma3movalid java app for fremantle i mean00:31
DocScrutinizerignore or kick? elections are open00:31
ShadowJKThere are actually some threads on the forums where people have installed java..00:31
ds3ShadowJK: right...00:31
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ShadowJKds3, it's all about the wake ups :)00:31
MyrttiDocScrutinizer: aw, but  he's so much fun00:32
ds3back then, there was ISDN routers that would use the D channesl to main a min. presence then when bandwidth demand goes up, it would add B channels00:32
ds3why can't we default to 2.5G/2.0G and switch to 3G as bandwidth demand increases automatically?00:32
ma3monot with microemulator. if i m here its couse i yet read all bout that. i hate microemu is just a demo00:32
ShadowJKds3, I saw some script announced on t.m.o. that promised automatic switch between 2g and 3g :)00:32
* Arif_ sneezes00:33
ds32.5G actually makes the device usable (from a battery life standpoint)00:33
ml-mobiledoesn't flipping between 2.XG and 3.XG kill connections?00:33
Arif_2.5G is too slow ={00:33
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DocScrutinizerds3: probably mainly because there's no crystal ball to tell future bandwidth demand00:34
ma3mosome help???00:34
Shapeshiftermy provider doesn't even do 2.5G :(00:34
Shapeshifteronly 2,3 and 3.500:34
ds3DocScrutinizer: that's the same issue with the ISDN stuff and it mostly worked00:34
* ml-mobile is on 2.5G all the time, damned AT&T00:34
Arif_get TMobile!00:34
ds3depends on what you are used to... the N800 + tetered 2.5G phone was find for my use so...00:35
ShadowJKI don't notice any difference in browsing speed between edge and 3g00:35
DocScrutinizerds3: ISDN connection establishing ois 10 times as fast as a band switch for cellular00:35
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DocScrutinizermaybe 100 times as fast00:35
ds3DocScrutinizer: oh..DOH00:35
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DocScrutinizerI mean, while you're at GPRS you don't keep a list of valid UMTS basestations even00:37
DocScrutinizerther's no defined roaming between GSM and UMTS afaik00:38
ds3Oh... somehow I thought they were the same stations...akin to how EDGE and GPRS is00:38
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ShadowJKI think in dual mode it keeps track of both 2g and 3g stations though?00:39
DocScrutinizernah 3G is an entirely new BTS technology, distinct from GSM00:39
crashanddie_hey guys, does MfE now actually work with GMail?00:39
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: I'm not sure but I'd guess no00:39
ds3so based on what you are saying... if I am on a voice call in a 3G area and I travel into a 2.5G area, the call drops?00:39
crashanddie_that's how blackberries behave00:40
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, I'd guess yes, because roaming between the two isn't up to the handset itself, and when you move from 3g area to 2g-only area your calls and data packets follow you..00:40
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ds3oh my00:40
DocScrutinizerat least there's no such thing like a cell handover from 2G to 3G00:40
ShadowJKAlthough when 3g was newly introduced here, most handsets acted broken when going from 3g to 2g or vice versa...00:41
ds3so 3G is more like a bolting in a second V8 to get a Yugo to go faster w/removing the original Yugo engine?00:41
crashanddie_Vodafone told us that we shouldn't use 3G all the time (If you have 4x4 on your SUV, you don't have it activated the whole time?)00:41
ShadowJKNokia blamed the operator, operator blamed nokia, nokia's left hand blamed nokia's right hand (which then said FU i want a divorce, and became nokia siemens networks)...00:41
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: sounds about right00:42
DocScrutinizerthere's no handover criterion in 2G for roaming to 3G. figure00:42
ShadowJKBut I've definitely maintained IP connectivity driving from 3g to 2g to 3g to 2g to 3g...00:42
ShadowJKAnd dozens of times my E70 has borked on that00:43
ShadowJKI can't remember my E75 doing that, and I've only had N900 since December so it's a bit early to tell :)00:43
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DocScrutinizerwell it doesn't work here00:44
ds3makes me wonder more and more on how well the 900 would work in really rural areas00:44
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ShadowJKI think I'm in "really rural" area :-)00:44
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DocScrutinizerds3: better than in urban areas, as in rural ones there's no 3G at all00:44
ShadowJKthe 3g is more sensitive than on E75 atleast00:44
ds3how does it acquire a signal? or does it just happying bounce around depending on how you hold your phone?00:45
ShadowJKI get 3g signal at 10 kilometres distance from base station :-)00:45
ShadowJKds3, dont hold hand near right side, that's where antenna is00:45
ShadowJKor "bottom" in portrait mode00:45
DocScrutinizeractually bottom right00:45
ShadowJKif I keep hand there the N900 instantly loses 3g and switches to the 2g station instead (which is at 400 metres distance instead of 10km for 3g)00:45
DocScrutinizersame here00:46
DocScrutinizerthough both 2G and 3G are max 500m away00:46
ds3ShadowJK: and what happens when you keep shifting your hands to cover and on cover that area?00:47
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ds3like if you move your hands over and away from that area00:47
ShadowJKWell the signal meter goes up and down, and at some point N900 is like "fuck this I'm going back to the stable strong 2g"00:47
DocScrutinizerwell here the jump to 2G means connectivity loss00:47
ds3but let's say you are doing a long TCP transfer..does it get killed or you get into TCP retry hell?00:48
ShadowJKon my provider it's seamless00:48
ShadowJKds3, there's a few seconds where no data is moved, then data starts flowing again00:48
ShadowJKobviously that's just with my operator, DocScrutinizer has different experience with his operator00:48
DocScrutinizerthat's a setup issue with carrier's network00:49
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ShadowJKMy operator is pretty famous for disconnecting connections randomly...00:49
ShadowJKMy other operator has very solid performance in this regard.. I can stay connected for months nonstop00:50
DocScrutinizersee, afaik there's no clear spec how to switch 2G/3G. So carriers take assumptions. Modem builders take assumptions00:50
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DocScrutinizersometimes the match, sometimes :-/00:50
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SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer, open-source modem fw! :)00:54
DocScrutinizerit's almost like in the early day of O2 (viag intercom), back when they used T-Mobile (telekom) for gap fillin. You had to relogin with a different PIN whenever you moved from one coverage area to the other00:55
ShadowJKwtf :-)00:56
ShadowJKMy operator used to be a full virtual operator... on the website you could click a button to pick which network to use :-)00:56
ShadowJKit required powercycle of phone..00:56
DocScrutinizerhehe. so same shit00:56
ShadowJKIt was mostly an academical excercise anyway. The two biggest operators have nearly identical geographical coverage00:57
* noobmonk3y prods frals00:58
ShadowJKThough one of them has slightly more solar/wind powered byous out in the sea and thus greater coverage offshore00:58
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noobmonk3y~kick Arif_01:00
* infobot kicks Arif_01:00
Arif_~rape noobmonk3y01:00
* infobot takes noobmonk3y behind the WallMart and makes a few grunts and screams01:00
* noobmonk3y squeals with joy01:01
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* DocScrutinizer kicks infobot01:01
DocScrutinizerno more toy for the kids01:02
noobmonk3ypoor old infobot01:03
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DocScrutinizerthat's all your fault. Told ya "don't mess with infobot" :-P01:04
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GAN900Dumbass Engadget01:10
GAN900"Entelligence" my ass.01:10
microlithain't it?01:10
GAN900"Mobile Multitasking is Mostly a Myth"01:10
microlithexcept when it's not01:10
DocScrutinizer bah01:10
DocScrutinizerand margerine is healthy for you01:11
microlithactually the biggest killer on my N900 is the background processes01:11
DocScrutinizerand in five years we jave implanted multimedia01:11
DocScrutinizerhave even01:12
microlithmail daemon always lets you know, via crippling cpu usage, that a message has arrived01:12
DrGrovwhere the hell do these Engagdet people get there shit?01:12
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GAN900Engadget has gone so far downhill since Block left.01:12
GAN900DrGrov, Apple PR department.01:12
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DrGrovGAN900: these god damn fuckers01:12
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DocScrutinizerwhatever they smoke, please do mankind a favour and exinguish it from earth01:13
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javispedroohnoes talk is down01:17
javispedrowhere i'm going to troll now.01:18
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DocScrutinizerpfff, raw horsepower of PC makes multitasking more important there than it is on smartphones. AHUH! o.O01:22
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: how'd you figure?01:22
DocScrutinizerdon't tell me you're actually using tmo01:23
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javispedroI read that on tmo01:23
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luke-jrDocScrutinizer: smartphones are almost always PCs01:31
DocScrutinizerdon't tell me01:32
corecode_so how do i write a python daemon for maemo?01:32
corecode_where do i look?01:32
DocScrutinizerluke-jr: not my words, qiote of Mr Michael Gartenberg01:33
DocScrutinizerMultitasking is far more important on the personal computer -- whose windowed UI and raw horsepower make it not just a luxury but a necessity01:34
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luke-jrtbh, I think desktop WMs need to support SIGSTOP on minimized windows in some cases01:35
luke-jreg, browsers01:35
luke-jreven if the app itself sends the SIGSTOP01:35
corecode_and then do what?01:35
luke-jrSIGCONT when it's restored01:35
corecode_how is the WM supposed to find out?01:35
javispedroDocScrutinizer: you're reading iPhone fan club blogs now?01:35
luke-jrcorecode_: the same way 'ps' finds out01:35
ShadowJKluke-jr, I used to do that with firefox01:35
corecode_luke-jr: running as root? :)01:35
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: GAN900 lured me in01:36
luke-jrcorecode_: no01:36
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javispedroevil GAN.01:36
luke-jrShadowJK: I still do, sometimes01:36
corecode_luke-jr: polling the kernel?01:36
ShadowJKluke-jr, but then I bought a quad core computer and 8 gigs of ram.. and now it's barely copying with it, so I'm fine..01:36
luke-jrcorecode_: when you restore a window, or it needs an update, check if it's suspended and SIGCONT it01:36
luke-jrShadowJK: I should do that :)01:36
corecode_luke-jr: can always cont it01:36
corecode_doesn't hurt01:36
* GAN900 cackles01:37
corecode_but what's that good for01:37
ShadowJKI tried to sigstop things in maemo4, but it kinda didn't work out that well01:37
* javispedro tends to CLOSE firefox instead of minimizing it... after a long session it gets way too heavy 01:37
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ShadowJKfar more things than just the app itself hung :)01:37
luke-jrcorecode_: high-multitasking systems w/o the RAM01:37
corecode_shouldn't the software just block if there is nothing happening?01:37
corecode_stop doesn't swap out the process01:37
luke-jrcorecode_: unfortunately, I don't think toolkits are that smart01:37
GAN900javispedro, Community forum has come screetching to a halt, so I don't have to read anything.01:37
luke-jrSTOP prevents it from running01:37
lcuk~seen jebba01:38
ShadowJKcorecode_, yeah well, software is so badly written01:38
SpeedEvilstop will lead to swapout under memorhy pressure01:38
corecode_but what is it doing?01:38
infobotjebba <> was last seen on IRC in channel #meego, 9d 1h 21m 46s ago, saying: 'i'm sick of this shit. anyway, good luck.'.01:38
corecode_ShadowJK: sure01:38
luke-jrcorecode_: polling crap? "just checking" that it has nothing to do?01:38
corecode_then it would run at 100%01:39
corecode_surely not01:39
luke-jrnot necessarily01:39
luke-jrthere's usually a select loop01:39
javispedrofirefox? collecting garbage01:39
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ShadowJKWell, xchat was checking every second or something if there was stuff to do :)01:40
luke-jrI totally agree that software should be written better than that01:40
luke-jrbut occasionally I simply need firefox :(01:40
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corecode_ShadowJK: "stuff"?01:40
luke-jrcertain libraires *cough curl cough* make it mandatory01:41
corecode_the magic of non-multithreaded and non-callback programming01:41
luke-jrlibcurl won't do timeouts unless you run its curl_process or whatever every N seconds01:41
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nthxhi.just want to say hello from n900 and test if xchat works.. c u01:41
corecode_can't you run it blocking?01:42
javispedrothe wonders of not having a proper timing api until this decade.01:42
SpeedEvilnthx, it does.01:42
luke-jrI submitted a patch to fix it like a year ago, and they were all too worried about it breaking things :/01:42
corecode_javispedro: yea, and no upcalls01:42
luke-jrcorecode_: no. even if you could, blocking prevents other things from going01:42
javispedro... now is when you start going down into the wonderful world of threading...01:43
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luke-jrthreading+blocking makes things so much easier :)01:43
corecode_luke-jr: that's when you create a thread01:44
luke-jrwish Linux supported some kind of cooperative multithreading tho01:44
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corecode_what's that good for?01:44
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luke-jravoiding context switching01:44
ptlI had a bug storm here01:44
luke-jrthink 10000 threads01:44
ptleverything went down01:44
ptl*a big storm01:44
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corecode_luke-jr: you still need to switch contexts01:44
corecode_luke-jr: just not preemptively01:45
luke-jrcorecode_: not exactly01:45
corecode_of course01:45
luke-jryou only switch threads from the main select loop ;)01:45
luke-jrand wait until it's done processing whatever and exits back01:45
luke-jrthen find another thread to run, or wait for data01:45
corecode_and that helps how?01:45
corecode_except for only running uniprocessor01:45
luke-jrwhen you have 10000 threads, the savings becomes significant01:45
corecode_which savings?01:46
luke-jrnot context switching needlessly01:46
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corecode_why would it switch needlessly01:46
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corecode_if there is work, it will have to run01:46
corecode_if not, it won't be scheduled01:46
luke-jrif thread A is running, there is no benefit to switching to thread B sooner than thread A is done01:46
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luke-jrwhy do people write async code?01:47
luke-jrif there was no overhead to context switching, everything would be multithreaded blocking01:48
luke-jrcooperative multithreading would be the ease of the latter with the performance of the former01:48
ds3luke-jr: aren't you describing old windows with the cooperative multitasking?01:48
luke-jrds3: to an extent01:49
luke-jrexcept that was at an OS level01:49
corecode_you can do that these days as well01:49
corecode_with priorities01:49
corecode_and semaphores or whatever01:49
luke-jrpriorities only go -19 to 20 :p01:49
corecode_no, that's nice levels01:49
ShadowJKluke-jr, those are nice levels01:50
ShadowJKreal priorities go from 0-99 iirc01:50
luke-jrwhich is effectively the same thing01:50
luke-jr0-99 isn't much when you're talking 10000 threads01:50
corecode_thanks for making it clear01:50
corecode_you don't really have a lot of threading/scheduler experience, do you01:50
corecode_as in "wrote it"01:50
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luke-jrin the kernel, no01:50
corecode_the big savings you get01:51
corecode_from coroutines/userland threading01:51
corecode_is reduced stack space in the kernel01:51
corecode_that's the big difference01:51
luke-jruserland app stacks aren't in the kernel, are they? O.o01:52
corecode_context switches are not really a big deal01:52
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ptlI think that when PR1.2 is out I'll shout at my N900. It's taking too damn long.01:52
luke-jrIIRC to create a new thread, the userland needs to allocate memory for the new stack01:53
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corecode_no, luke-jr yes, lazily01:54
corecode_that was ambiguous now01:54
corecode_userland stack is allocated lazily01:55
corecode_kernel stack isn't01:55
javispedrothose stupid operating systems with 1:1 threads...01:55
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luke-jroh, you mean the kernel keeps a local stack for syscalls?01:55
corecode_but cooperative multitasking (1:n threading) also needs a userland stack01:55
luke-jrthat makes sense I suppose01:56
luke-jrwhatever the benefit tho, I know avoiding the kernel for the multithreading seems to perform much betters01:56
corecode_i doubt that01:56
corecode_especially not for multi processor systems01:56
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* luke-jr ponders01:57
javispedrowith 10000 threads and 2 cores, I can see luke-jr being right01:57
corecode_are they all runnable?01:57
corecode_or not01:57
luke-jrmultiprocessor systems are a slightly different scenario01:57
corecode_everythign is multiprocessor01:57
luke-jrcorecode_: they're all runnable at some point01:57
corecode_either already or in 2 years01:57
luke-jrcorecode_: I don't have a single multicore system01:57
corecode_that sucks01:58
corecode_i guess01:58
javispedrocorecode_: same reason you mentioned. on single processor it's faster because it's just less overhead and there's not an extra processor to schedule threads to at all, so using entirely userspace threading works.01:58
luke-jrruns fine, except for RAM shortages01:58
corecode_javispedro: indeed01:58
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javispedrocorecode_: with 10000 threads and 2 processors I can see the overhead being greater than 50%01:58
corecode_javispedro: but with 2 cpus, you can get a (theoretical) speedup01:58
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javispedroand the benefits being much smaller than 50%01:58
ShadowJKthere was this library that did posix threading without kernel :P01:58
ShadowJKit didn't work that well01:58
corecode_you mean "all unices"?01:59
* luke-jr ponders if he could abuse setjmp to do a proof of concept01:59
luke-jractually, I already have a semi-POC01:59
corecode_luke-jr: yes, that's what all 1:n threading libs use(d)01:59
javispedrouserspace threads don't need any more proofs of concept :)01:59
corecode_yea, that's 90ies tech01:59
luke-jrcorecode_: really? the spec for setjmp doesn't make that possible :P01:59
luke-jractually, nm02:00
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corecode_since you also need to preserve the fp state etc02:00
luke-jrthat's fork vs single-thread02:00
corecode_javispedro: i can't see which overheads would build up02:00
corecode_javispedro: for any reasonable workload02:01
javispedroexactly. 10000 is not a reasonable workload IMHO.02:01
corecode_well, let's say we have enough ram for the stacks02:01
javispedroprobably would be i/o boun02:01
corecode_i don't know what the application at hand would be02:02
javispedro(each task, ie the only reason I can think for having 10000 threads is serving 10000 i/o requests)02:02
corecode_a web server?02:02
corecode_10000 chat client connections != 10000 ftp data connections02:02
corecode_but event vs threat has been beaten to death02:03
corecode_and i'm on the event side as well02:03
corecode_although it makes programming more difficult02:03
corecode_now i still didn't find out how the suggested way of writing a daemon for maemo is02:05
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ptlby 'event' you mean 'select()'?02:05
corecode_generic term02:05
corecode_usually something superior02:05
corecode_like kqueue02:05
corecode_or the linux equivalent02:06
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corecode_select is the worst interface02:06
javispedroevent queues, of which I'm a fan too02:06
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corecode_daemon, anyone?02:07
corecode_how do you start them, how should they behave?02:08
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: xchat was updating 'meters' every second afaik02:10
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ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, and checking dcc timeout02:11
ShadowJKeven when no dccs active02:11
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DocScrutinizerthat's realy genius02:11
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javispedroa few years ago who would have though you'd have things like no_hz02:12
javispedrofrom all the major platforms only palmos did something like that02:12
DocScrutinizerwell, as long as you got to wake up every second anyway, it's probably shorter code / less overhead to simply check, rather than to wind a timed alarm02:13
corecode_and it makes code much easier02:13
ptlI didn't even know kqeue02:13
corecode_ptl: that's a freebsd thing02:13
corecode_don't know the linux equiv02:13
ptlyes but it seems that at least two linux libraries support it02:13
ptllibev and libevent002:13
ptlAlan Cox said you could use epoll instead of kqueue02:13
corecode_that's it02:14
javispedrooops, workqueue is something entirely different02:14
corecode_so, nobody developing for maemo here?02:15
corecode_am i in the wrong channel?02:15
ptlnot yet.02:15
ptlnot yet --> me02:15
ptlbut there is also #maemo-devel02:15
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ptlI forced myself not to developer anything but simple shell scripts until I finish my master degree dissertation's fixes.02:16
ptlI am too lazy. :(02:16
ptl*not to develop anything02:16
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corecode_doesn't work02:17
corecode_just means that you're doing less in total02:17
corecode_at least for me02:17
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SpeedEvilcorecode_, pay him so he doesn't need to continue study!02:19
SpeedEvilor her02:19
corecode_if i stall life because i need to finish something02:19
javispedroa daemon? I'd first ask if you really, really, really need it02:19
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javispedroautospawned d-bus service maybe?02:19
ptlI am too compulsive, corecode_02:19
ptlI can't stop once I start programming anything...02:19
corecode_javispedro: i want to download a new backdrop every 5/10 minutes02:20
ptlbeen sick a few times recently because of that02:20
corecode_# alarmd - daemon process that keeps track of current alarms02:20
corecode_that one?02:20
ptlI've once lost the whole vacations days due to this obsessive behaviour.02:20
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corecode_ah, so not just BEEP BEEP alarm?02:20
corecode_but also timers02:20
corecode_that wasn't clear from that description02:21
javispedrofor example, the rss app uses it to refresh stuff every 15 min02:21
ptlI simply stood at home, programming.02:21
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corecode_ptl: you mean you enjoyed hacking02:21
ds3what time base is the alarm system running off of?02:21
corecode_how can you call that losing vacation?02:21
ptlNo, I mean I am kidnapped by it.02:21
ptlI did a good code, even upload to a brazilian site similar to sourceforge02:21
ptla few months later, I went too busy and couldn't update the code or the site on which I used it02:22
Lynoureptl: sounds like coding is not something you want to do for living?02:22
ptland then a few further months and I decided to simply close the site.02:22
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corecode_natural evolution of code02:22
ptlLynoure: at that time that was what I did. Today, it's not, I am a support sysadmin at IBM. I earn the same money, but get less obsessed about stuff.02:23
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ptlI like programming once in a while, for fun.02:23
corecode_javispedro: keeping the process around might mean less power used02:23
ptlI do not make it an obligation anymore.02:23
corecode_javispedro: because python doesn't have to start all the time02:23
Lynoureptl: the fine line between great motivation and unhealthy strain, I guess.02:24
javispedroah, python...02:24
corecode_javispedro: yea, i won't code that in C02:24
ptlLynoure: yeah, I think so...02:24
corecode_i think there is nothing wrong with hacking for 15 hours in a 24 hour window02:25
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Lynourecorecode_: depends on what else one would need to achieve in that 24h window.02:25
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corecode_philosophically, nothing02:25
corecode_does that make me a nihilist?02:26
LynoureThrow in 8h of job, and other responsibilities, and suddenly that amount of hours can become a problem.02:26
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Lynourecorecode_: mostly just blessed, I think02:26
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corecode_i used to do that as student02:26
crashanddieLynoure: 8h of work, 15h of hacking, 1h of sleep. Sounds about right.02:27
corecode_9 hours of sleep02:27
crashanddiestatistically speaking, people who sleep 9h every night die younger than those who sleep 6h every night02:27
corecode_you must have wrong jobs02:27
Lynourecrashanddie: Short term, sure :) I'd add in eating and shower, but that's just me :)02:28
corecode_crashanddie: yea, i still challenge that study02:28
crashanddieI figure if I only sleep 1h per night, I'll live to be 20002:28
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firestormmms on the phone is there any 3rd party app for this.02:28
corecode_i think they did some wrong selection towards sick/sleeps long02:28
ptlfirestorm: fMMS02:29
ptlfirestorm: it's on extras-devel.02:29
corecode_javispedro: i can't find info on alarmd02:29
crashanddiecorecode_: actually, a few months ago I was doing an average of 15-16h of work on a daily basis, weekends included ;)02:30
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corecode_crashanddie: for money or for fun?02:30
corecode_i was searching in the api docs :/02:30
DocScrutinizercorecode_: believe me, you'll feel like that :-P02:30
corecode_crashanddie: that's the best02:30
crashanddieindeed it is02:30
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: ^^^02:30
crashanddieDocScrutinizer: ?02:31
DocScrutinizercrashanddie: you'll feel like 200, even while you're just 4502:31
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firestormpti as in the app manager?02:32
ptlcorecode_: there's also the API for libalarm, under here:
ptlfirestorm: yes, you have to add the extras-devel repository02:32
corecode_javispedro: how do you even execute the application on startup?02:33
firestormah n this may sound dumb how lol02:33
corecode_ptl: yes, i had a look at that02:33
javispedrocorecode_: alarmd is persistent02:33
corecode_ah, maybe that's not right then02:34
corecode_i need some sort of best effort every 5 minutes02:34
corecode_or 1002:34
corecode_but how do i ever start an application02:34
javispedrodoes it matter? you can set it up for a 5 minute repeating event without waking up the system02:35
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corecode_still, i need to set it up02:36
corecode_that means i have to run it02:36
corecode_or some other application02:36
corecode_i mean obviously i could do that in xterm02:36
javispedroor at install time, or as part of a cpanel applet, ...02:36
corecode_now i just need to find out how to do that in python02:37
javispedrocause it should be configurable, so it'll have a gui.02:37
corecode_or shell02:37
corecode_actually no02:37
corecode_the picture i'm loading only appears every 10 minutes02:37
* DocScrutinizer points at alarmed app02:37
corecode_DocScrutinizer: hum?02:37
DocScrutinizerit's python ;-P02:37
firestormptl: how do i dot hat :p sorry for the dumb questions it's all new to me, or point me to some where02:37
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DocScrutinizermaemo's crond02:38
ptlfirestorm: see the bottom of the pages, extras-testing and extras-devel02:39
firestormty :)02:39
firestormi see it :)02:39
firestormbasically a beta... then02:39
firestormi can't belive they make a epic phone but don't do mms :S02:39
ptlbut there are lots and lots of applications. It's like a russian roulette: one of them will break your phone :P02:39
firestormcool we liikw russians :p02:40
SpeedEvilnone have broken mine so far02:40
corecode_i need a python-alam package?02:40
firestormlike even02:40
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firestormdo you know if they plan to release a mms app for the phone in a later update as that is annoying02:40
nthxptl: or fill rootfs till u have no space left :/02:41
lcukmmm firestorm ?02:41
ptlfirestorm: if you search for mms on you'll see lots and lots of discussion and whining about it.02:41
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: phototranslate (or similar) seems to break flashlight02:41
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ptlfirestorm: basically, they did it for technical and practical (i.e. priorities) reasons.02:41
firestormyer seen it before but it's not good enough02:41
ptlI mean, they didn't do it.02:41
corecode_javispedro: can't be that everybody installing alarms has to write a C program?02:41
DocScrutinizereven though it doesn't work on taking photos itself02:41
firestormit's like take a dummy from a baby02:42
ptlnthx: yes, that's one of the things that can 'break' your phone02:42
DocScrutinizerwell, it looks somewhat 'commercial' ;-P02:42
javispedrocorecode_: DocScrutinizer was telling you that alarmed, which is an alarmd gui frontend, is written in python...02:42
DocScrutinizerprobably I'm on his ignorelist XP02:42
firestormlcuk: ?02:43
corecode_i was more searching for a shell only solution02:43
corecode_since i only want to program one repetitive alarm02:43
DocScrutinizercorecode_: somebody nagged the author to implement a cmdline interface ;-P02:44
ptlyou mean you don't want 'cron-like' functionality, only 'at-like'.02:44
DocScrutinizerto alarmed02:44
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ptlat now +5m...02:44
corecode_ptl: cron is good enough02:44
ptl*5 minutes02:44
corecode_i just want to set it up02:44
DocScrutinizerthere's no cron on maemo02:44
ptlI know02:44
ptlthat's why I said cron-like02:44
corecode_without having to write a c program to do so02:44
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lcukcorecode_, setup an alarm or make a daemon autostart?02:45
DocScrutinizercorecode_: would you evetually consider to give a try to alarmed?02:45
corecode_DocScrutinizer: yes, my sdk doesn't seem to have these things yet02:46
corecode_the extras repos02:46
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ptlare you using python? or do you really need shell, corecode_?02:47
ptlbecause there are binding for python02:47
ptlpython-alarm - Python bindings for libalarm library02:47
corecode_my program is python02:47
ptlso just use python-alarm, it's on extras... won't it work the way you want?02:48
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ptlI don't think it's a good idea to set a dependence on a whole app like alarmed... it's better to use libalarm02:52
firestormany one tried running a mail server on there phones being linux based?02:52
ptlalso, there are two apps that do the same as alarmed, fcron and some other whose nome I forgot02:52
ptlfirestorm: now THAT's something that would be difficult to handle. mail servers do not work well with dynamic IPs, also for the cellphone network, usually the IP's are under NAT02:54
corecode_so what if i'd simply like to run a daemon on boot?  init.d or something else?02:54
ptlcorecode_: event.d (upstart)02:54
corecode_firestorm: to receive or to send?02:54
firestormi know pti, just thought someone would given it ago lol02:54
firestormboth :p02:54
ptlthe same as ubuntu, but ubuntu used /etc/init directory instead of /etc/event.d02:54
corecode_i see i see02:55
ptlcorecode_: there is the /etc/init.d directory but if you put the scripts there it doesn't work, i.e. they are not started automatically (/etc/rc2.d or whatever)02:55
ptlcorecode_: there is some package with sysv-something, I didn't test it, maybe it enables sysv compatibility mode for upstart.02:56
ptlno, it's sysvinit-utils and it's nothing to do with sysv init.02:57
ptlDocScrutinizer: I installed alarmed on my N900, but when I go to it, it shows only the text, and the whole background (with probably with the boxes for entering data) in black.03:00
ptlDocScrutinizer: do you know anything about this?03:01
DocScrutinizernever seen that03:01
DocScrutinizerworks like a charm here03:01
DocScrutinizerboth cmdline and gui03:01
DocScrutinizerask Shapeshifter03:02
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corecode_wow why is this such an old python version :/03:04
ptlDocScrutinizer: if you want to take a look though03:05
ptltried with two themes already03:05
DocScrutinizerhmm, theme would have been my only guess... sorry03:06
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DocScrutinizeras I said, as Shapeshifter - he's the author03:10
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ptlShapeshifter: are you here?03:12
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ds3are there binaries for SLiRP on any of the repos?03:13
ds3think I've had enough of fighting pnatd03:13
DocScrutinizerfighting pnatd? sounds lke fun... until you learn about the missing features03:14
ptl[user@n900 user]% apt-cache search slirp03:15
ptl[user@n900 user]%03:15
ptlno luck03:15
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DocScrutinizerptl: fyi - default theme here03:18
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DocScrutinizerthough I'd guess is using standard widgets which should be tested and working with all commonly used themes, no?03:20
ds3DocScrutinizer: pnatd doesn't dump debugging info and the other end is equally tightlipped03:20
ds3cross compiling slirp... I know the remote end is fine with a raw pppd so slirp 'should' just drop in and work03:20
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ptlit uses pyside. qt03:21
ptlI've seen on the changelog of PR1.2 something about QT not getting the theme colors right.03:21
ptlIt might be this case.03:22
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ptlis there a chance of someone developing a program like this one (math program) for the N900? --->
ptl...and don't tell me about recompiling xmaxima / macsyma...05:01
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crashanddieyou need to recompile xmaxima / macsyma05:07
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ptlfound something even better, crashanddie05:11
ptlit's qt05:11
ptlit's pythin05:11
ptlthis seems just the right app05:12
ptlit is very much like spacetime.05:12
ptlI mean05:12
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ptlit uses maxima also05:13
ptlbut it has a simplified interface05:13
ptleasy to port to mobile05:13
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ptloh... it has been abandoned in 200705:16
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yigalare there any other channels on irc for umpc/mids running linux?06:47
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yigalother than #mer06:48
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yigalwell I guess I'll join ##philosophy for the fun of it then, in the mean time that is06:51
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AndrewfblackGAN900, Ping07:30
GAN900Andrewfblack, pong.07:31
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AndrewfblackGAN900, just saw my minimalist theme wont be needed for meego07:31
GAN900Andrewfblack, I just got the Morning Industries version of that lock for Insteon integration, by the way.07:32
GAN900Andrewfblack, just ignore him and do it anyway.07:32
cehtehis there somewhere a website showing screenshots of all available themes?07:32
AndrewfblackGAN900, got it tonight?07:32
cehtehimo its a bit unfortunate that theme are just mixed with all other stuff in HAM07:32
GAN900Andrewfblack, like some random Intel guy has say07:33
AndrewfblackGAN900, If Meego doesn't want a minimalist theme that is fine with me less work for me to do, btw is Reggie not running forums over there, who was that guy btw?07:33
GAN900Andrewfblack, day before yesterday07:33
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GAN900Switching the whole house to Insteon07:34
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GAN900Andrewfblack, Reggie's the one with say.07:34
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GAN900One of the Intel infra people.07:34
AndrewfblackHavn't looked at Insteon yet is it zwave?07:35
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GAN900Andrewfblack, no, better07:51
GAN900Dual band07:51
GAN900RF and powerline07:51
GAN900More stuff available.07:51
AndrewfblackGAN900, I might take a look at it.  I havn't taken the time to install my door lock yet.07:52
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Andrewfblackwell bed time for me.  Later08:07
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RST38hmoorning Sts08:29
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KhertanHello !09:15
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KhertanI got a problem with ham ... can t uninstall MaStory ... required by PyGTKEditor09:15
Khertanthere is no dep on it09:16
Khertanapt-get remove didn t have the same problem09:16
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crashanddieKhertan: You are foutu.09:18
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crashanddieKhertan: There is no survie possible, give up all espoir of reussite.09:18
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Khertancrashanddie: i m not foutu ... but Hildon Application Manager is foutu09:32
Stskeepscan't wait till we switch to rpms09:33
Khertanlol ...09:35
Khertanwill be worse09:35
Stskeepsas far as i can tell, hardly :P09:36
Stskeeps(i used debs before, now i kinda like rpms)09:36
Khertanhow ? really ? as an user and a maintainer?09:37
Stskeepszypper helps insanity a lot09:38
Khertanlook like a bit like apt-get for an usert09:39
Khertanlook like a bit like apt-get for an user09:39
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Khertanok the problem is clearly ham ... mix depandancy between package09:42
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Khertanok will use only apt in cmd line now09:42
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ds3wheeeee DUN finally working with a patched up slirp!09:51
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asjevening thresh10:25
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optimus_primemy name is ninto antok10:27
optimus_primei'm a student interested to participate in gsoc 201010:28
optimus_primeis there anybody who can help me10:28
Stskeepsask your questions :)10:28
optimus_primei have an idea . where can i propose10:29
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user_hi i cannot choose a differemt protocol than aim in pidgin are there alternatives so i can use msn on the n900?10:33
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Stskeepsinstall the pecan msn plugin10:35
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Stskeepsoptimus_prime: is a good start10:40
optimus_primethank you. let me check out10:42
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Shapeshifterptl: I am now ;)10:56
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Shapeshifterptl: and for the next 14 or so hours, mostly10:57
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noobmonk3yat some point yesterday i saw a screen in hildon with a report "bug button" - looked like a pre-setup solution for bug reporting from an app? or was i imagining things?11:03
Stskeepshildon extras maybe?11:04
noobmonk3ythanks Stskeeps - yup! - HeAboutDialog11:05
noobmonk3ypity the wiki page doesnt actually explain how to use them though :P11:06
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noobmonk3yall in c :(11:16
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ShapeshifterMh. Could someone help me with fixing a bug in my app? It's the frontend to alarmd. Some guy posted an excellent problem report here: Especially the lower part about syncevolution. The problem is: When someone wants to create a custom command for scheduling, it seems like I cannot just give it to libalarm in direct fashion, e.g.: 'action.command = echo "foo" >> /tmp/foo'. i ...11:18
Shapeshifter... tried this and it doesn't work, probably (my guess), because of the '>>'. So I thought, I'd wrap stuff in /bin/ash -c '<here>', but this seems to work randomly for people, and randomly not. :| For example that dude in the post: If he puts his syncevolution command inside my GUI, it comes out like this in alarmd_queue.ini: "action0.exec_command: /bin/ash -c '/opt/syncevolution/ --quiet goosync'" and it does NOT work. ...11:18
Shapeshifter... However, if he runs exactly this from the command line, it works.11:19
ShapeshifterI just don't get what alarmd expects the exec_command parameter to be. For *some* commands, it works just putting them there, for *me*, they work if put int /bin/ash -c '', for *some* it works if that is changed to /bin/ash without the "-c", and for some commands, it works without any prefix -.-11:19
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Shapeshiftermh, the same dude found out that scripts shebanged with /bin/bash don't seem to work if bash is not installed. And I believed it was symlinked to ash >.>11:32
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Kurppa_ /bin/sh works at least.11:34
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lbtping X-Fade11:41
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noobmonk3y~seen vdvsx11:46
infobotvdvsx <~Valerio@Maemo/community/council/VDVsx> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 2d 12h 16m 22s ago, saying: 'GeneralAntilles, ehehe, but everybody knows that you're a undercover Nokian :p'.11:46
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Shapeshiftertmo: "essential updates on 'realistic wish list': Firewall and Anti-Virus software (especially since maemo is open code?)." lmao.....12:06
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lcukmornin noobmonk3y \o konttori \o12:10
lcukoptimus_prime, it would be better to talk in here12:10
optimus_primeya sure12:11
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lcukso you want to take part in gsoc, whats your trouble12:12
optimus_primeso i've discussed certain issues with nobmonk3y but i need to know how can i make it into gsoc12:12
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optimus_primei've an idea in mind how can i propose it12:12
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lcukwell theres an ideas page for proposals on the gsoc wiki page, but talking about it here cant hurt either :)12:14
ccookeMorning, all12:14
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lcukmornin charles12:15
RaveeshOptimus Prime: visit the gsoc wiki page, and click on the "Edit" option next to the difficulty level you believe your project belongs to. A page would open showing you an editable region where you'd notice the current projects are present. Have a look at it's structure, and based on the symmetry post your proposal12:15
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optimus_primethanks friend i'm on it12:17
optimus_primehow can  i find a mentor then?12:17
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lcukwell since nobody knows of your project or its merits no mentors have been assigned yet (the projects havent been chosen either12:18
RaveeshThat is something I'm not sure of myself. It's my first time at GSoC too. I believe the Maemo community people may search for one for you, or you can try to look around, see the current mentors, and search on this IRC as wel12:18
optimus_primewell that was helpful indeed12:20
optimus_primei'm tryin to develop a multimedia application in mobiles12:21
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saltsa_anyone experienced with modest? Why it has the imap idle disabled even it lefts the tcp connection open?12:22
gouverneurShapeshifter: had a laugh on that ++12:27
gouverneurmorning btw12:27
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Shapeshiftermoin moin12:29
gouverneurShapeshifter: I am close to stop laughing on those people12:30
gouverneurShapeshifter: wo bist du denn her12:30
Shapeshiftergouverneur: zürich ^^12:30
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gouverneurah da war ich eben erst, meine mutter und meine tante wohnen um zuri12:31
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gouverneuryour name sounds familiar to me but more from rpg nwn as from knowing you12:33
Shapeshifterwell I'm not related to any rpg.12:33
Shapeshifteralso, my nick is not related to star trek, the dnb artist or werwolves.12:34
gouverneuris an elite cleric class, you might be a dragon though12:34
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* Arif_ throws the 7 dragon balls at Shapeshifter12:35
ShapeshifterArif_: ouch, that hurts, stop throwing stuff at me ^^12:36
gouverneurI got an endlevel shapeshifter in nwn and sometime I would find it just useful in real life... a coward cleric running up at a crowded place and *puff* a 6m red dragon joins the fight12:36
* Shapeshifter grabs a pencil and throws it in Arif_ general direction12:36
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Arif_I didn't wish for a pencil!12:37
gouverneurArif_: you dont have to ask for it...12:37
Arif_the cartoon lied to me ;(12:37
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* Arif_ wishes for a white DSi XL in yourope12:41
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optimus_primehey anybody there?12:59
hd1optimus_prime: nope13:00
optimus_primewanna ask qstn13:01
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Shapeshifteroptimus_prime: on IRC, you're usually supposed to just ask, not ask to ask, and wait for an answer a reasonable amount of time.13:09
hd1optimus_prime: don't pm me, mate13:09
optimus_primewhat are the basic requirements for developing a video based application besides sdk13:10
Shapeshifteroptimus_prime: what do you mean by "video based"? like, playing videos?13:10
optimus_primemanipulaing it13:10
ShapeshifterI'd say knowing/learning gstreamer is a good start regarding maemo.13:11
optimus_primelike reversing13:11
corecode_seems that updating the wallpaper with gconf only works if you change the filename13:11
optimus_primeselecting frames etc13:11
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Shapeshifteroptimus_prime: gstreamer or ffmpeg13:11
corecode_which is silly13:11
optimus_primethanks mate13:12
corecode_which is silly13:12
* Arif_ waits for coreplayer on Moomo 5...13:12
hd1blame canada, blame canada13:12
* hd1 loves south park13:13
corecode_anybody have an idea how i can force a reload of the wallpaper?13:13
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Arif_hd1, you should read a book! :D13:13
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hd1Arif_: nah, I'd rather blame Canada :)13:16
dan2003how can i install packages without apt/dpkg re-downlaoding them? they are all already on my system under ${scratchnox}/var/cache/apt/archives/13:16
Arif_or write your own :(13:16
hd1or something equally silly13:16
hd1Arif_: write? I'm illeter813:17
Arif_and on irc? :p13:17
Arif_dan2003, apt-get install /where/is/my.file?13:17
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dan2003Arif_: will that find dependancies in the same place?13:18
Arif_No idea ;D13:18
Shapeshifterdan2003: dpkg -i /path/to/file13:18
hd1depends on how the dpkg description file is configured13:18
* Arif_ should stop confusing commands..13:19
hd1well, apt-get is just a wrapper around dpkg13:19
Shapeshifterapt is stupid anyway.13:19
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hd1Shapeshifter: are you one of those "real men write their own bootloader" types?13:19
dan2003dpkg -i /var/cache/apt/archives/libqt4-maemo5-* seems to have doen the trick13:20
Shapeshifterhd1: nope13:20
Arif_you can just poke the deb files with filemanager too13:20
DocScrutinizermooo Shapeshifter13:20
nidOreal men dont write their own bootloaders, they write the whole os on the fly.13:20
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: moin13:21
dan2003in assembly13:21
dan2003bootstram from biological memeory13:21
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: heard the sad story from ptl ?13:21
Arif_and the normal user will leech off them?13:21
hd1Arif_: if their task is ever completed, yes, that is what they hope anyway13:22
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: no, what was it about?13:22
* DocScrutinizer notices a flashing yellow "!"13:22
Arif_opensource projects never get completed :p13:22
ShapeshifterI think he doesn't have hilighting enabled in his IRC client. he asked me twice while I was away and I replied but he didn't get the message apparently.13:23
hd1Arif_: gcc seems pretty complete to me13:23
hd1same with emacs13:23
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: huh what on earth is that. the background of his text input field isn't white?13:23
* hd1 goes to bed13:23
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: pr1.2? well that looks like some broken Qt.13:24
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DocScrutinizer[2010-03-27 02:20:07] <DocScrutinizer> though I'd guess is using standard widgets which should be tested and working with all commonly used themes, no?   [2010-03-27 02:21:40] <ptl> it uses pyside. qt    [2010-03-27 02:21:56] <ptl> I've seen on the changelog of PR1.2 something about QT not getting the theme colors right13:25
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: but why does he have pr1.2? is that an sdk shot?13:26
* Arif_ also got a yellow !13:26
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: no idea13:26
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ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: whatever it is, I doubt I can do something about it. it uses Qt, well pyside, yeah. But pyside gets a new and very fresh/different release soon to extras-devel anyway.13:27
Arif_picodrive and ukeyboard got updated13:27
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ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: they already have released Shiboken, but not made a .deb yet for pyside-shiboken.13:27
dan2003k, im devleoping qt4.6 in sdk (with pr1.2 update) can i install 4.6 onto device alongside 4.5 or not?13:27
Shapeshiftershould come out in a few days. this way, alarmed will also lose the libboost dependencies and all that.13:28
DocScrutinizer~nuke libboost13:28
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at libboost ... B☢☢M!13:28
dan2003sorry, am developing an qt4.6 app , not qt itself13:28
Kurppa_I think it's either 4.5 or 4.6, not both.13:28
dan2003so we have to eait for pr1.2 device update b4 able to try on device ? :(13:29
noobmonk3ydan2003,  yes :D (or in sdk)13:29
dan2003as it just seg faults if i try to launcg on device atm13:29
dan2003yeah wokrs on desktop13:29
Arif_I can't update ukeyboard13:29
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Arif_hildon-im-fkb (>=3.9.61-1) is missing13:30
DocScrutinizerupdate of simple-brightness-applet fails due to missing libhildon1(>=2.2.10)13:32
* DocScrutinizer will refrain from updating anything for a few days13:32
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BadRobothi there13:33
Arif_at least I know there's a Turkish virtual keyboard for pr1.2 now....=D13:33
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ech0dishanyone know how many devices joikuspot can support? just curious..13:41
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* RST38h moos distractedly13:43
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MohammadAGech0dish, as much as the Wifi spec allows? (ad-hoc)13:46
* noobmonk3y w0000ps13:47
ech0dishi dont understand why joikuspot doesn't support WPA13:48
ech0dishit only has WEP... wtf thats just cheep13:48
Arif_it wants to support the Nintendo DS :P13:49
cos^WPA would be probably much more difficult to implement and possibly more heavy on cpu?13:49
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ech0dishmight as well make the password letmein if your going to use WEP...13:50
Arif_the N900 probably has a range of 10cm anyway13:51
ech0dishhas a good range13:52
ech0dishi can go far, thats not issue13:52
noobmonk3yhow far is far? interested as i will be using it next wee k:D13:52
ech0dishseems just as good as my d-link wireless g router13:52
ech0dishi can use it anywhere in my apartment13:53
* Arif_ is too cheap to buy joiku ={13:53
ech0dishtested in the bathroom13:53
Arif_you need internet in the bathroom?13:53
ech0dishyeah with the n900 in the kitchen13:53
ech0dishplugged in chargin on the counter13:53
ech0dishworked great13:54
ech0dishstreamed perfect youtube vids13:54
noobmonk3yhealthcheck update stacked windows work!!! (extras-devel)13:54
Arif_thats better than I expected!13:54
Arif_noobmonk3y, yay! now you need to get people to use it!13:54
noobmonk3yhehe 18,000+ downloads :|13:54
ech0dishi have it13:54
ech0dishused it to test the front cam13:55
noobmonk3ycool :D :D13:55
Arif_that's pretty impressive for a platform that has 7 users :P13:55
noobmonk3ywill be updating that to front video soon too13:55
noobmonk3yArif_,  lol!13:55
ech0disharif, can i pm u?13:55
noobmonk3y8) - Louis walsh has one lol13:55
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Arif_no need to ask...13:56
LuciusMareHi, how much space will the easy debian take?13:56
LuciusMarehi Arif13:56
noobmonk3y~wink at Arif_13:56
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noobmonk3yinfobot doesnt love me no more13:56
noobmonk3yech0dish, is there anything else you would like to see in healthcheck? :D - other then better graphics lol13:57
noobmonk3yooo btw - thinking of doing a 3d test in it :D13:57
nidOhas healthcheck got a proper vibrate test yet>? :D13:57
Arif_LuciusMare, itll take about and exactly 2GB13:57
noobmonk3yyup :D13:57
noobmonk3ynidO, lets you select form some of the built in patterns13:58
noobmonk3ywell the devel version does13:58
noobmonk3ygot sound tests, led patterns too13:58
Arif_(File info for) H:\debian-m5-v3b.img.ext2 (Size) 2.00GB (Created) Wednesday, 24.03.2010 17:24:43 (Modified) Thursday, 25.02.2010 18:43:08 (Attributes) A13:58
nidOokay, heres an ideas13:58
DocScrutinizer[2010-03-27 12:50:37] <ech0dish> might as well make the password letmein if your going to use WEP... --- ech0dish, ad-hoc is basically just "letmein"13:58
noobmonk3yand now just added the ascreen accuracy & keyboard test + dead pixel test :D13:58
nidOmaybe have healthcheck do a backup check, and warn you if you have no backup / a backup over say a month old13:59
noobmonk3ythats a clever idea :D13:59
noobmonk3yassuming backups are all of the same file tpye?13:59
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nidOgood question, checking14:00
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* noobmonk3y brb's - shower14:00
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DocScrutinizernoobmonk3y should include a healthcheck for the battery cell :-P14:01
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* DocScrutinizer also wonders if healthcheck has a notion about the number of bad blocks on NAND14:03
nidOokay backup files have no extension, but you cant specify a folder for them so the backups will always be in /home/user/MyDocs/backups or in /backups on the sd card14:05
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nidOalso rather bizzarely... I cant access sshd on my device while it's charging, anyone seen that? :<14:06
noobmonk3yDocScrutinizer, can you explain that a bit more? - mha etc?14:07
noobmonk3yahaaaaa cheers nidO14:07
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* DocScrutinizer points to backup.metadata14:15
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DocScrutinizernidO: I'm doing this (access ssh while charging) all the time. No problems14:16
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DocScrutinizernoobmonk3y: nidO: MyDocs/backups/<backupname>/(*.zip|backup.metadata)14:18
ShapeshifternidO: you sure you're not just trying the wron IP or something?14:19
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DocScrutinizernoobmonk3y: I was halfway kidding. It's not simple task to check cell health. You could try to readout bq27200 values (see for a few details on bq27xxx chip). You could check voltage drop during enabling a strong consumer (e.g. vibrator, gprs tx, toggle backlight on/off)...14:24
noobmonk3yhmmmm not a bad idea though14:25
noobmonk3ysomething i could work on :D14:25
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SpeedEvilimpedence spectrometry14:27
SpeedEvilbacklight is a good candidate14:27
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SpeedEvilapply a superposed pwm sequence of 0.01,1,10hz14:28
SpeedEvilsynchronus demod of battery response14:29
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: that's what I thought, yes14:29
dan2003anybody here use mpd?14:29
dan2003(im making a clinet for n900) seen an exsiting onw, (cuteMPD) but inmy opinion its to "fiddly", makin gone with nice big easy to use buttons,14:30
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noobmonk3ymobilephonesdirect in my book lol14:33
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* noobmonk3y is off, c'yall laters14:34
* Arif_ wants a DVBService client :P14:34
FIQwill PR1.2 break compatibility with older maemo versions?14:34
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Arif_ukeyboard is already broken14:35
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FIQukeyboard doesn't work yea14:36
FIQbut.. what's the problem?14:36
FIQbreaking compatibilities when the only new thing is some bug fixes and package updates...14:37
FIQseems odd to me14:37
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Arif_you can't install the new version on PR1.1.114:37
FIQi know14:37
Arif_which is understandable14:38
Arif_as PR1.2 has a new virtual keyboard layout14:38
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FIQbut that's not what i mean, i mean, why will the update make the old packages unusable?14:38
Arif_lets all boycot PR1.2 if apps don't work14:38
FIQor have i done some major mis-understand? :d14:39
FIQgood point14:39
Arif_I guess older apps will work...14:39
Arif_go install the sdk and try :P14:39
FIQyay, the packagelistupdate is done14:39
FIQtook only 5 minutes!14:40
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FIQyou know, the alt+f2 thing at linux desktop14:51
FIQis that feature in hildon?14:51
Arif_what does that do?14:51
FIQa text field on the screen14:52
FIQtype an application name will launch it14:52
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Arif_apparently that feature will be in the menu14:52
Arif_in pr1.214:52
FIQsome of them also makes it possible to run bash commands, but that's not required for me14:53
FIQah, nice14:53
Arif_and fınally a way to rearrange ıcons!14:53
Arif_alphabeticallly=stupid :D14:53
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MohammadAGVDVsx, does a package with broken dependencies get deleted? I uploaded a package into extras-devel and set it to a wrong dependency (fixed it in 0.2-1)16:37
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VDVsxMohammadAG, not, afaik16:37
VDVsxonly if you upload a couple of new versions16:37
* Stskeeps installs sygic and likes it16:37
* VDVsx has free ovi maps and likes it :P16:38
MohammadAGVDVsx, already uploaded a couple :P16:39
* Stskeeps doesn't particularly like ovi maps16:39
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Stskeeps(also, we're going to use this in our car with voice navigation)16:39
* MohammadAG dislikes the fact that only Google Maps has maps for Israel16:39
VDVsxStskeeps, I'm talking about the real deal, not the n900 version, works pretty well with voice navigation :)16:40
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GAN900VDVsx has had ne16:50
GAN900enough of the whipping boy post. :P16:50
DocScrutinizerheh, wasn't it as pleasant as expected?16:51
DocScrutinizerwrong whip I assume :-P16:51
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* VDVsx crosses GAN900 from his voting list16:52
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VDVsxdamn, already voted :(16:53
* lcuk has big multitouch pc16:54
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aquatixlcuk: ?16:54
lcuki just bought a new computer16:54
VDVsxlcuk, isn't only a screen ? or has cpu as well ?16:54
aquatixa tablet?16:55
DocScrutinizerlcuk: I thought you broke your screen in a very unique way ;-)16:55
aquatixDocScrutinizer: ghehe16:55
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lcukaquatix, large format monitor for next to me16:55
lcukVDVsx, full machine16:55
MohammadAGHP Touchsmart?16:55
MohammadAGoh nvm16:55
DocScrutinizergesture for black, gesture for fading to white16:56
lcukwas gonna get one16:56
lcukbut was concerned about amd :)16:56
lcukso i got a packard bell onetwo which has intel chip :)16:56
MohammadAGTouchsmarts use AMD?16:56
lcuki think theres different models, the only touchsmarts i saw were amd16:57
lcukthey had a hp tablet too16:57
lcukmultitouch but my stylus didnt work with it16:57
lcukand i didnt like the stylus they supplied16:57
lcukso i got the packard bell that works with my n900 stylus :)16:57
* DocScrutinizer wonders how multituch with stylus does work16:58
DocScrutinizerlcuk: you'll need 2 N900 ;-P16:59
lcukthats easy :)16:59
lcuki already have that16:59
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SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer, it's for japan16:59
VDVsxlcuk, only 2 ? :p16:59
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer, 4 styluses16:59
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: XP16:59
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lcukanyone coming to birmingham tonight?17:00
VDVsxno :P17:00
DocScrutinizerhow to sync to KDE Kontact? anybody?17:00
VDVsxDocScrutinizer, did you try to search at Tmo ? I read something about that but can remember where :(17:01
DocScrutinizerVDVsx: ok, I'll try the google approach then17:02
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ShadowJKoh yeah, I vaguely remember a linux program for syncing now.. it had a very weird name :/17:05
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* MohammadAG likes how Joikuspot doubles as a portable heater17:05
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* DocScrutinizer wonders if setting N900 on fire would serve same purpose17:07
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MohammadAGnah, setting it on fire would kill it for good, Joikuspot just locks the CPU @ 600MHz17:08
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* DocScrutinizer heard that's also killing it for good ;-P17:09
MohammadAGnot in this weather :P17:10
ShadowJKMohammadAG, it locks it at 600? really?17:10
ShadowJKI thought the heat would mostly be because it puts wlan in adhoc mode which has no powersaving at all17:11
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MohammadAGwell CPU is running at 100% all the time17:11
MohammadAGand I'm assuming that's 60017:11
MohammadAGShadowJK, Ad-hoc doesn't raise it as much17:11
MohammadAGcheck top17:11
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ShadowJKI havent reid joikuspot... does it fix the kernel issues?17:12
MohammadAGhmm it's cooling down17:12
MohammadAGwhich issues?17:12
ShadowJKcrashing ones :)17:12
MohammadAGnever crashes for me17:12
ShadowJKpowertop should give statistics of cpu states anyway..17:12
MohammadAGBUT it doesn't work on custom kernels17:12
MohammadAGyou have to use the stock kernel17:12
ShadowJKit comes with a funny kernel module iirc17:13
MohammadAGShadowJK, after 30 second-analysis...17:13
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ShadowJKit probably does nat/something in userspace17:13
MohammadAGit seems that when the screen is locked, CPU is running at less than 10%17:13
MohammadAGbut the speedometer they use seems to be raising this, and that happens when the screen is unlocked17:14
MohammadAGthe kernel module is open source17:14
ShadowJKit just passes packets really..17:15
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MohammadAGShadowJK, Xorg uses about +60% when the screen is unlocked17:16
ShadowJKlol :)17:16
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DocScrutinizerhooray for updating speedometer at 200fps17:30
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MohammadAGsomething's wrong17:36
MohammadAGthe N900 isn't charging17:36
MohammadAGit's charging (as in it says charging) but when I remove the cable it dings17:37
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ShadowJKlow battery warning I'd assume17:42
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MohammadAGptl ^17:42
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mortalis it possible to install the latest tear on os200817:45
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ShadowJKThere's one for maemo5 and there's one for maemo4(os2008), pick the right one17:46
mortalwhere do I find the libwebkit packages17:46
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jattit,s safe to use the n900 with the ac adapter connected even if the battery is full?17:53
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ShadowJKyes it is17:54
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MohammadAGit discharges iirc17:55
MohammadAGand then starts recharging when the battery goes down17:56
jatti read in the manual i think tha this could lead to trouble17:56
MohammadAGso it doesn't run on AC power17:56
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MohammadAGit might waste energy so your bill we be a cent or two higher :P17:56
El_Angeloany of you found a car charger that works with the n900 ?17:58
El_Angeloi bought this one17:59
El_Angelobut my nokia ain't charging with it :(17:59
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jatthmm the applet doesn't show as it is discharging but anyway i think that was the issue written in the manual18:02
MohammadAGjatt, it shouldn't18:04
jattit should'nt run on ac power?18:04
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ShadowJKEl_Angelo, yes I have the nokia DC-10 car charger. Works fine.18:07
DocScrutinizer~tell jatt about batteryfaq18:07
ShadowJKEl_Angelo, searh tmo for "solution dumb charger"18:08
ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, we should write one specific to n900 too :-)18:08
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dan2003El_Angelo: i beleive u may need to short the 2 usb signl pins in the charger plug if it refuess to charge18:08
dan2003tho the one i got just wokred18:09
MrCoderHi guys, Is it possible to get GTK+2.0 => 2.1.8 on the N900?18:09
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: most parts of the OM batfaq are generic, not specific to any particular hw platform18:09
ShadowJKdan2003, the nokia car charger is obviously microusb charging compliant and "just works"18:10
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* Noobmonk3y_ waves18:11
dan2003ShadowJK: i didnt buy the nokai one, i bought an el-cheapo one from ebay18:11
ShadowJK3670mV and 20mAh left the battery meter says.. it fails so hard with the 2400mAh batttery :D18:11
Noobmonk3y_ooo two of me, must have left my laptop on18:11
DocScrutinizerdan2003: as would any standard 12v->USB adapter18:11
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Noobmonk3y_oooo decent batteries exist? :)18:12
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ShadowJKnoobmonk3y, well it's twice as thick as the original battery18:13
Noobmonk3y_ahhhh mugen stylee?18:13
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jonaskoe1kerHi all.  Has anyone used the locate package?  I'm puzzled: it creates a buncha folders in /usr/{lib,bin} and so forth, but doesn't put any files there.  It puts all the files in /opt/maemo/... (e.g. /opt/maemo/usr/bin/gnu/locate)18:13
jonaskoe1kerwhat's up with that?18:13
Noobmonk3y_noooo idea18:14
Noobmonk3y_space for temp files?18:14
infobot[optification] a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the partitioning is FUBAR, or,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs18:14
Ken-Youngjonaskoe1ker, Sounds like bad optification.18:14
dotCOMmieis there a good media player for n900 which can play based on directories?18:14
jonaskoe1kerbut wait, shouldn't /opt/.../bin be in my $PATH ... ?18:15
ShadowJKnoobmonk3y, yes this is the mugen fatbattery18:15
jonaskoe1kerand ... why don't people just fix the partitioning?  Is that a hairy, sticky process?18:15
Noobmonk3y_ahhhh did you get one? my main concern is no cam cover?18:15
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: and being twice as thick it should have at least 2.5 times the capacity :-/18:16
RST38hjonas: it is a hairy sticky process.18:16
mortalis it possible to edit the menus on os2008?18:16
RST38hand the details are too hairy for you to understand.18:16
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ShadowJKDocScrutinizer, the actualy cell is shorther than the original though18:17
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ShadowJKbut anyway, small manufacturers like mugen don't have access to the awesome battery factories like the bog boys such as nokia do..18:17
tybolltbog boys? :D18:18
infobotShadowJK meant: but anyway, small manufacturers like mugen don't have access to the awesome battery factories like the big boys such as nokia do..18:18
tybolltsjk: :)18:18
Noobmonk3y_if only nokia realised they had the technology lol18:18
ShadowJKConsidering their same-volume battery for N800 had 1200mAh compared to nokia original 1500mAh :)18:18
jonaskoe1kerRST38h: really?  Hm... I'd figure you'd install a mini-linux which lets you pxe-boot over wifi (pesky wpa2 and so forth) an OS which then fidgets the file systems...18:19
ShadowJK(the 1200 was advertised as 1800)18:19
jonaskoe1kerRST38h: or something like that18:19
dotCOMmieMaybe its possible to play all mp3s in a folder with default player? I cant seem to find that option18:19
jonaskoe1kerdotCOMmie: I think it's designed to not have it18:20
Noobmonk3y_i think you have to vcreate a play list first18:20
jonaskoe1kerdotCOMmie: designed by people who think they know what you want18:20
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dotCOMmiejonaskoe1ker: is there an alternative music player that can do this?18:20
tybolltthe thing is - when nokia had made the N900 and everyone realized "shit this bat won't cut it" the normal marketing things is "let's not release an add on bat, instead - let's make the bat for the NEXT GEN device beefier and tout that at launch" ... simple as that18:20
Noobmonk3y_dont think so18:21
dan2003its not quite that simple, there is a 256Meg nand flash, which ahs the syste on, and a further 32 gig as a eMMC flash, so they cannot just be repartioned18:21
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dan2003they are seperate physical mediums18:21
jonaskoe1kerdotCOMmie: I don't know if they've been packaged, but mpd and mplayer are what I use on my desk/laptops, and they're _mighty_ fine :)18:21
ShadowJKtybollt: well the original battery manages the stated goal of lasting the day for me..18:21
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dan2003i am in the process (right now) of writing a mpd client for n900, (i dont like cuteMPD)18:21
jonaskoe1kerdan2003: ah, I see18:21
dotCOMmiejonaskoe1ker: I use moc(p) on my laptops but.. it would be nice to not have to use a keyboard18:21
dotCOMmieI guess mplayer * will have to do for now18:22
jonaskoe1kerdotCOMmie: how about "find -type f > playlist.m3u"18:22
ShadowJKtybollt, I think the biggest issue is finding out what eats battery, because top is worthless for it, and what eats power and how much is pretty unintuitive to the average developer, let alone user18:22
dotCOMmieI organize music by folders and usually play them like that having hundreds of playlist is suboptimal18:23
dotCOMmieesp since you wont get hierachy18:23
ShadowJKpowertop is somewhat usable, but it's still a trial and error of disabling/uninstalling desktop widgets until wakeups go down..18:23
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jonaskoe1kerdotCOMmie: well, I meant to create one big hunking playlist18:24
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jonaskoe1kerdotCOMmie: then you have some sort of folder locality/clustered-together-ness because of similar (full) file names18:24
dotCOMmiejonaskoe1ker: yeah that would work. But its silly there is now file browser in music player18:25
dotCOMmiealmost every musics player does18:25
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jonaskoe1kerdotCOMmie: I agree 100% :)18:25
jonaskoe1kerit's rather silly.  It's also a poor backend choice for gPodder, because it adds podcasts to my media library ^_^18:25
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dan2003i use my zaurus with MPD to play the music and have a home made ui for client, the audio files are hosted by nas on my wifi router, am writing a client for n900 atm, plus use minion firefox plugin from laptop/dekstop18:26
mortalwow, tear is very nice18:26
dan2003also havea gumstix with audiostix which i plan on setting up with mpd18:26
dan2003for the other room18:26
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dotCOMmiegumstick have soundcard add ons?18:26
dan2003and wifistix18:28
dan2003the 3 stacked up make for one teenie mpd server18:28
corecode_any idea why the n900 would say "not charging" when it is on usb?18:28
corecode_it is not the nokia cable, but still...18:28
dotCOMmiewhy not just get openwrt compatible router with usb sound card?18:28
dotCOMmieit'll only be 10 times larger d:18:28
dan2003cos i have this tuff alread ;) i have 2 x asus router with usbhost . (usb audio cabaple) also18:29
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dan2003anybody know which repo has libwebkit in ?18:33
DocScrutinizercorecode_: it *says* "not charging" ?18:34
corecode_DocScrutinizer: yes18:34
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corecode_DocScrutinizer: first "charging" appears18:34
corecode_DocScrutinizer: then right after "not charging"18:34
corecode_yellow box18:35
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DocScrutinizerhmm, wrong voltage maybe18:35
* RST38h is amazed by how quickly the Chinese design houses have caught up with TI and other big companies18:35
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corecode_now i need a upstart script18:35
corecode_and a way to remove my old symlinks18:36
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corecode_too bad /tmp is so small18:36
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MohammadAGcorecode_, tried a different PC?18:36
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Kurppa_Not charging means the USB host you have plugged it into, cannot provide enough current to charge the phone.18:39
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Kurppa_Standard current for USB is 100mA, if the USB device is not a "supported" device.18:40
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Kurppa_500mA if it is a supported device.18:40
Kurppa_This means, that if you plug it into a modem for example, and the modem does support reading the device in mass storage mode, you will get 500mA if you have the phone in mass storage mode.18:40
MohammadAGBTW the not charging happened to me once and it was a sw bug, a reboot fixed it18:41
Kurppa_If the phone is in PC suite mode, you will get 100mA because the phone is not recognised by the modem.18:41
disco_stuKurppa_, cool tip, did not know that, thx :)18:41
Kurppa_And will definitely get the "not charging" notification.18:42
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disco_stuKurppa_, i've been wondering why my phone wont charge, even with my notebook's power share activated18:42
Kurppa_In a PC that does not have Nokia drivers installed, you will also get "not charging" if you have it in PC suite mode, since the phone is not recognised.18:42
MohammadAGnoobmonk3y, ping18:43
DocScrutinizerKurppa_: that's partially a question of N900 doing correct ENUM on USB though18:43
dmj726_n9001Kurppa: that only applies to windows18:44
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DocScrutinizerKurppa_: the 'supported device" bit is mostly a OTG issue18:44
Kurppa_The phone also remembers which mode you had it last in. If you had it on PC suite mode and now you only select "charging only", it will still be advertised to the PC in "pc suite" mode and you will get 100mA.18:44
Kurppa_So if it does not charge correctly, plug it into PC, select "mass storage" mode, and then it will charge correctly.18:44
DocScrutinizerKurppa_: ee18:45
DocScrutinizererr what?18:45
Kurppa_That's how it's supposed to work. It's part of USB specification.18:45
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Kurppa_You can google "usb unit load" for a better explanation, I'm crappy at explaining things :-)18:46
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RST38h"Ubuntu Will Switch To Base-10 File Size Units In Future Release"18:47
DocScrutinizerKurppa_: any standard USB gadget will do a proper negotiation of allowed VBUS current on ENUM, aiui. The 'known device' bit is a OTG extension where you got no ENUM as there's no master18:47
RST38hIs it April 1st already???18:48
Kurppa_The AC adapter that came with the phone is different though, and will charge much faster than a PC can. It delivers 900mA or 9 unit load.18:48
MohammadAGUgh I'm downgrading to ubuntu 9.1018:48
MohammadAGtoo many crashes in the beta18:48
MohammadAGit feels like windows...18:48
dmj726_n9001Rst38h: I'm waiting for base ten x86 cpus.18:49
El_Angelodan2003: which one did you get?18:49
El_Angelocar charger that is...18:49
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ShadowJKthe ac adapter that came with  my n900 delivers 1200mA18:49
Kurppa_DocScrutinizer: N900 is different then, if I understood you correctly :-)18:49
DocScrutinizerKurppa_: my charger is capable of 1200mA18:50
dan2003El_Angelo: uhm - i donno, was a generic one from hong-kong on ebay. I'll pop to car and loko if u want but i doubt itll have anythhing on it to identify it by18:50
Kurppa_It's capable of 1200mA, but I think the phone only charges at 900mA if I remember correctly. Good point though, mine was the same, 1200mA.18:51
RST38hMohammad: Is 9.10 safe?18:52
RST38hMohammad: Does it run Scratchbox2?18:52
Kurppa_Ubuntu beta has always been crashy. It's still been crashy 2 months after release :-)18:52
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lardmanafternoon all18:53
Kurppa_Hello there.18:53
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lardmanhi Kurppa_18:54
RST38hmoo lardman18:54
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lardmanhey RST38h18:54
DocScrutinizerKurppa_: whenever I plug my N900 to my laptop I see it in lsusb, and it has negotiated the max of 500mA. That's not dependent on g_ether or whatever, or on vendorid being listed in the database file18:54
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DocScrutinizeri stuck?18:55
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Kurppa_Alright. I don't know if it's my phone that's just malfunctioning then.18:55
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Kurppa_Every time I've had it in PC suite mode and plugged it into a PC without PC suite drivers, it's been saying "not enough juice to charge".18:56
lardmanso is pr1.2 out yet?18:56
ShadowJKbattery low warning at 3637mV... fail18:56
Kurppa_lardman: not today.18:56
lardmanlcuk: you about?18:56
lardmanKurppa_: I've been out of touch for a couple of weeks, so was just wondering18:57
Kurppa_Ah, I see.18:57
ShadowJKKurppa_, iirc if you remove drivers added by pc suite/ovi suite it starts working again.. something like that18:57
Kurppa_I've tried on a couple of pristine PC:s. PC suite has never been installed on them. But I do not know if it's just a bug in my phone.18:58
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ShadowJKIn general that message is displayed when the host pc does not agree to supply power18:59
Kurppa_Yes. It has always helped if I get the PC to recognise the device using mass storage mode.18:59
Kurppa_There could be a difference in how windows and unix handle it.19:00
lardmanhmm, I could really do with Google Street view (or similar) with a hook into the land registry house prices so I can walk around and see the price of houses in the vicinity19:00
TomaszDanyone knows Gabriel Shulhof?19:00
Kurppa_You said you have used lsusb, so I assume you've used linux or another variant of unix.19:00
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lcuklardman, just whats up?19:00
Kurppa_I've only tried in win xp and 7.19:00
lardmancompass would help too, I don't suppose a hidden compass has been discovered in the N900 in the past couple of weeks? ;)19:00
lcuk(setting off to birmingham in ~ 5mins19:00
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lardmanlcuk: Trying to remember the name of that gst source switcher you found for me19:01
lardmanor a vague date?19:01
Kurppa_lardman: it has. And a kitchen sink was found as well.19:01
lardmanKurppa_: wonderful ;)19:01
lcukcripes lardman !19:02
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DocScrutinizerKurppa_: connect to laptop, select 'PC Suite', halley:~ # lsusb -v -s 1:4; ->...     bmAttributes         0x8019:02
lardmanlcuk: :)19:02
DocScrutinizer      (Bus Powered)                                      MaxPower              500mA19:02
Kurppa_Yep. Looks good. I think this linux or whatever you're using is a lot smarter than my those windows pc:s I've tried.19:03
Kurppa_Minus the my.19:03
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Kurppa_I'll try that as well after I find an usb cable to see if it's just a bug in the software I'm using in the phone. Or in the phone itself :-)19:05
lcuklardman, :) check your pm19:05
DocScrutinizeryeah, windoze is known to do some weird nasty things to USB19:05
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jonaskoe1kerHi all.  How do I proegramatically fiddle with my contacts?19:05
lardmanlcuk: thanks mate, have a safe trip back home19:05
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lcukwill do - i have new toys so will play later19:06
lardmanjonaskoe1ker: what sort of fiddling?19:06
Kurppa_The contacts are probably stored in this sqlite database.. I forget where.19:06
jonaskoe1kerseveral have gotten multiple identical facebook account #s attached to them, I want to remove them all19:06
lardmanlcuk: will try to catch you later on19:06
lcuk\o ttyl19:06
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DocScrutinizerKurppa_: so your explanations might be perfectly correct for MS based USB host systems19:07
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Kurppa_jonaskoe1ker: are you using PR1.2?19:08
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Kurppa_Never mind. I just didn't understand correctly.19:09
lardmanhmm, has sb moved to pr1.2 libs now, so nothing can be installed?19:09
lardmanor rather s/sb/sb rootfs19:09
DocScrutinizerjonaskoe1ker: I found contactinfos pkg yesterday in the repos. It's supposed to provide access to contacts database via dbus. Alas I wasn't able to find a decent API description19:10
jonaskoe1kerno sysfs'ish interface?19:10
jonaskoe1kerI mean the g--damn phone runs unix.  Everything is a file.  Lines of text.  That sort of... gah... :\19:10
DocScrutinizerit's a clib interface19:11
lardmanthere is code floating about, in fact there's some on my webpage to see which contacts are online19:11
lardmanyou could use something similar and remember the facebook/etc. ids19:11
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lardmanpraise be to the FSM, selector is already available in extras!19:13
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lardmangst input selector element19:15
Kurppa_(can't find anything about it on google)19:15
lardmanis good, need to have file and video src for barcode pipeline19:16
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lardmanand having done nothing on this for a month or so, I think I should pull my finger out and get it released19:16
lardmanthough with the autobuilder building for pr 1.2 (afaiu),  I may have chosen the wrong time19:16
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mortalwhat do the different wlan power saving levels do on os2008?19:20
mortallike if I have the middle one, what will it do?19:20
mortalthe highest one did not work well19:20
lardmanuse more power19:21
lardmanthough some routers don't like the power saving methods it uses, so you have to dial it back19:21
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lardmanwhat exactly the methods are, I can't remember19:22
DocScrutinizerMUHAHAHA reboot on plugging laptop USB to the device19:22
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RST38hso, what rebooted? laptop or the tablet?19:22
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DocScrutinizertablet of course19:23
* RST38h once again notices how slow App Manager is19:23
lardmanRST38h: is that because it's been updating for the last two weeks? ;)19:24
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RST38hlardman: Naah, it is just naturally like that19:25
RST38hlardman: Megabytes of repo indices do not help either19:25
lardmanI think the update strategy could also be improved19:25
lardmani.e. do it while the list is still present19:25
DocScrutinizerbootcount:3, bootreason:sw_rst19:26
lardmanand even work out which packages need to be removed/added behind the scenes so there is less waiting around19:26
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DocScrutinizer~praise cmdline execution widget19:27
infobotAll hail cmdline execution widget!19:27
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DocScrutinizertzz, TV takinghead: "sleep faster tonight!"19:29
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DocScrutinizeris it just me to feel it's kinda silly Nokia not even bothered to create a whatever rudimentary Nokiasuite for Linux Desktop hosts, though the device is Linux?19:38
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derf'The video shows that the Predators invented the "slide to unlock" feature circa 1987.'19:38
RaveeshHi all, I've got a question regarding the GSoC. I've put up a project suggestion on the site and it appears in the list, but I wanted to ask if we're required to provide a more "formal" application of sorts, or is it sufficient that the project appears there.19:38
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N900evil_DocScrutinizer, it is handy. I've gotten a desktop widget to set the backlight to '2' (very dim) when clikcked.19:42
Kurppa_DocScrutinizer: it's not just you..19:42
Kurppa_They even have a cross platform GUI toolkit for that.19:43
DocScrutinizerheh, I guess it's called Qt?19:43
Kurppa_Yes. Yes it is..19:43
DocScrutinizerN900evil_: good idea. Found it quite annoying to swing from menu to submenu to subsub quite some times. E.g. for switchin backlight to 'always on'19:48
DocScrutinizerRST38h: ~~ ?19:49
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DocScrutinizerderf: what's‮that19:52
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ShadowJKdocscrutinizer: I'd hope we'd get away from the 1990s with special sofware for each device, and support standard protocols ;(19:55
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range∾ is  the small brother, I guess ...19:57
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DocScrutinizerShadowJK: ack. anyway some 'conduits' might be needed, even while clinging to standards as much as possible. I can live without a Nokia wrapper around xterm ssh, and sftp. But the approach to 'ship with' Windoze support, and forget about Linux, well that's stupid anyway19:58
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DocScrutinizerN900evil: any idea how to set Simple Brightness App to 'keep display on', via cmdline?20:06
N900evilnope, sorry.20:06
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ShadowJKI thought the windows softwaredidnt work either, atleast people whine about N900 Ovi Suite support all the fucking time20:07
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Kurppa_Nope, it doesn't work.20:09
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RST38hOvi Suite is a clusterfuck, has been this way for years20:09
RST38hConverting it to Java at some point obviously did not help it any20:10
Kurppa_You install PC suite, it doesn't work and says you need to install Ovi suite. Ovi suite removes PC suite when you click OK and starts installing. After it's started up, it says your phone is not supported.20:10
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Kurppa_You try to remove Ovi suite to get even some of the functionality back that PC suite had. Ovi suite uninstaller keeps crashing so it can't be uninstalled.20:11
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Kurppa_Then you're just screwed.20:11
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Kurppa_And you have rebooted your PC about 3 times during all this.20:12
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RST38hWhy are you forgetting 6-7 background programs it installs on Windows?20:12
RST38hThat will now run on startup20:12
Kurppa_Got to have some daemons. They're nice.20:13
* DocScrutinizer facepalms20:14
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dmj726_n900try ubuntu for charging?20:16
* dmj726_n900 is half serious 20:16
Kurppa_VMWare Ubuntu for charging.20:17
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Shapeshiftermhh, I just tried sudo reboot and it seems to be working allright. Is this the proper way of rebooting maemo?20:25
Shapeshifterand, is it coupled to rootsh being installed?20:25
ShapeshifterI'm not sure. someone just asked me how to reboot the device from CLI and I just tried this.20:25
nidOshould be a perfectly clean way to do it20:27
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Kurppa_Beats pulling out the battery.20:28
nidOyou could just skip a call with shutdown -r now though20:29
ShapeshifternidO: meh :P20:29
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corecode_i wonder...20:34
corecode_how do i package upstart scripts properly20:34
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lovelyboyHi, I want to embed Python in C app, I added the header file #include <Python.h>. But how to link it with gcc?20:36
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corecode_does it work in linux?20:37
lovelyboyI think so20:37
corecode_can you make sure?20:38
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jenspHey, flash stopped working for me in the microb browser, any idea what I could have messed up?20:38
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lovelyboycorecode: not very sure about it, cause I never use Python before. But I wrote a simple to print "Hello, World", and I run" python", it works in scratchbox20:39
jenspWhen I check the Add-ons/Plugins the field is empty.20:40
timeless_mbpjensp: that'd be a problem...20:41
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jensptimeless_mbp: Any idea how to get it back? Flash doesn't seem to be in the repos.20:42
timeless_mbpit isn't20:42
timeless_mbpyou're not supposed to delete it ;-)20:42
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timeless_mbpadd-ons/plugins is entirely empty?20:43
jenspI didn't do so conciously...20:43
timeless_mbpi have 5 things, including 'default plug-in'20:43
timeless_mbpcat ~/.mozilla/microb/pluginreg.dat20:45
corecode_lovelyboy: what i'm getting at is, you should try it in linux first before you try it in maemo20:48
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timeless_mbpdid you do anything stupid lately? :)20:49
jensptimeless_mbp: obviously yes, but I'm not sure what ;) the .mozilla/plugins directory contains the files btw20:50
corecode_how *do* i start upstart tasks from a debian package?20:50
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timeless_mbpthat file shouldn't be anywhere near that empty20:51
timeless_mbpit should be ~48 lines20:51
timeless_mbp[re]moving /usr/lib/browser/plugins counts as stupid fwiw :)20:51
timeless_mbpls /usr/lib/browser/plugins20:51
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jensptimeless_mbp: wtf?!20:52
jenspwoops sry20:53
hcarrega7 mil carcaças20:53
MohammadAGtimeless_mbp, shouldn't the files that's empty in his case be regenerated if it was deleted?20:54
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infobotMohammadAG meant: timeless_mbp, shouldn't the file that's empty in his case be regenerated if it was deleted?20:55
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jenspMohammadAG: I guess it would be if my plugins wouldn't consist of a weird loop of symlinks oO20:56
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MohammadAGjensp, I have many symlinks in /usr/lib20:57
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jenspMohammadAG: Yeah, but as you can see in my paste the symlinks are pointing to themselves20:57
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MohammadAGjensp, again, I have many symlinks pointing to themselves20:59
jenspok... seems weird to me.20:59
MohammadAGactually, the browser plugins aren't20:59
FIQi've 98% of my rootfs filled21:00
corecode_i don't think maemo is actually using upstart21:00
MohammadAGFIQ get out of -devel21:00
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MohammadAGI think the repository links for -devel should be removed from the wiki21:01
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jenspMohammadAG: thanks, any idea how I could get those files? I just downloaded the latest maemo5 image, I'll see if I can get them extracted from there...21:02
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MohammadAGjensp, yes you can get them from the image, extract it using flasher-3.5 and mount the root.jffs2 file21:03
MohammadAGthe N900 uses ubifs, so you'll need a ubifs enabled kernel on your desktop21:03
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timeless_mbpjensp: please figure out how you managed to convince your system to eat those files21:04
timeless_mbpthat's obviously a bad thing21:04
timeless_mbpand someone should promise not to eat them21:04
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corecode_upstart, anybody?21:05
Kurppa_Heh. That was actually info I needed at work. Thanks MohammadAG!21:05
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MohammadAGlol np :)21:05
jensptimeless_mbp: I am, currently looking through my shells history, but I can't find anything suspicious.21:06
timeless_mbpjensp: i'm more interested in your package install/update history21:08
timeless_mbpi'd be surprised if you personally shot yourself in your leg w/o remembering doing something like it21:08
timeless_mbpi mean, it's possible to have serious amnesia after a self inflicted wound21:08
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DocScrutinizertimeless_mbp: like drilling a hole into your skull?21:11
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DocScrutinizerjensp: you're sure /usr/lib/browser/plugins/ isn't itself just a symlink to ~/.mozilla/plugins ?21:16
DocScrutinizerahh,nevermind. 'disbaled/' has a different timestamp21:17
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jenspgot it to work with the plugins extracted from the image, thanks everyone21:25
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DocScrutinizertimeless: if you'd suggest how to get HAM log via cmdline...  A 'history | grep apt | pastebinit ' seems simple enough21:37
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Kurppa_I hope thdere will be some kind of new battery technology available soon. I've almost emptied the battery 4 times today. :-)21:42
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Kurppa_That "5 minutes to full charge" technology that was in the news a couple of years ago would work for me as well.21:44
DocScrutinizerKurppa_: I wonder why you even removed the device from charger at all :-P21:44
Kurppa_I'm finnish so I'm chatting from sauna. :-P21:45
Kurppa_And the cord is so short..21:45
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DocScrutinizerKurppa_: 5min-charging never will work, thanks to china and EU making usb-charging mandatory. You *need* >1h to charge a battery over USB, simple because you can't have more than 1A of current on the plugs afaik21:46
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Kurppa_Ah, there's some kind of upper cap on the charging current then?21:47
DocScrutinizeron the plug current, yes21:47
Kurppa_Or is the 1A just a limitation of current li-ion/li-po battery technology.21:47
Kurppa_I see. But laws can be changed.21:48
DocScrutinizernope, you can charge LiIon much faster, depending on particular cell technology21:48
atitiand 500mah limit for usb :p21:48
Kurppa_And I'm sure there will be tech workarounds for laws, when the technology is ready for it.21:48
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Kurppa_Yeah. I guess some part of the 1A limit is also because they don't want the mobile phone getting too hot.21:50
Kurppa_Would suck if it was burning hot in your pocket after charging.21:51
DocScrutinizernah, that's solvable21:51
Kurppa_By a huge heatsink on the side of the phone.21:52
wazdcharging for a theme is kinda lame21:52
wazdcharging for actions that are described in details, like theme packaging, is lame^221:53
DocScrutinizerby designing a charger control that has high efficiency, or by completely doing the regulator business in charger rather than in phone (the motorola way iirc)21:53
wazdI was talking bout it at the FRUCT conference - OSS is "for fun"21:54
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wazdif you don't have fun by doing themes - then don't do it21:54
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wazdArkenoi, do you have some kind of invisibility spell or something? :D21:56
DocScrutinizerBS! I'm even paying the neighbor's kid to maw my lawn21:56
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Kurppa_I guess for example those RC car chargers do huge currents on those li-ion batteries21:56
Kurppa_I wish I had a lawn. I'd go roll on it right now.21:57
DocScrutinizerit's described very well how to do it, so is paying for it lame? It's not fun to me, so the lawn shouldn't see mawing at all?21:57
Kurppa_Winter. Bah.21:57
wazdDocScrutinizer: well, mawing is work21:58
wazdDocScrutinizer: charging 10 bucks for clicking 1 button - lame :)21:59
DocScrutinizerPAYING 10 bucks is lame21:59
DocScrutinizercharging 10 bucks is perfectly ok21:59
DocScrutinizerneed explanation for the obvious?22:01
wazdcharging old people 100 bucks to, well, check their e-mail is ok? :)22:01
wazdyes, please22:02
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Kurppa_Asking the price is ok. Paying it is stupid.22:04
wazdand btw22:05
DocScrutinizerexactly. Unless you got a monopoly22:05
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Kurppa_But believe or not, many people make their living by doing just that. Take for example Nokia's Vertu phones ;-)22:05
wazdI don't think that use of MADDE to make money is not violating EULA22:05
DocScrutinizerwazd: duh. I think you're seriously mistaken here22:07
wazdDocScrutinizer: where exactly? :)22:07
Kurppa_Morally, conning old people is wrong.22:09
DocScrutinizerwazd: with EULA. Please quote22:09
wazdDocScrutinizer: well, right now I don't have time to dig thru all that infinite papers, but I'll ask Daniel later22:11
DocScrutinizerwell I've seen EULAs for compilers forbidding their use by military or in weapon development, but honestly I doubt MADDE would forbid creating commercial packages, that's not exactly what Nokia is after22:12
* Stskeeps doubts too22:14
DocScrutinizerexcept of course if they possibly plan to have a commercial version of MADDE for companies to pay for it, so they can create their profit22:14
DocScrutinizer(see Qt)22:14
DocScrutinizeruse free MADDE for free products, pay for commercial grade MADDE to create commercial products22:16
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* DocScrutinizer curses free-as-in-beer mentality22:18
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DocScrutinizer"heh, it's just like hitting a button, and I'd do that for fun. So while I don't bother to actually do, how may you dare to charge me for that?!?"22:19
DocScrutinizeryou should give me a buck so you're allowed to do that fun!22:20
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javispedrohaving fun? I have that patented!22:22
* SpeedEvil ponders a wonderojus world where you can ask a browser 'dump page related state to swap atomically'22:23
* SpeedEvil has 6 windows open, and it's getting slow.22:23
Kurppa_You can always ask.22:23
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* DocScrutinizer heard some weeks ago someone patented patenting patent patenting, so your patent is void, javispedro X-P22:25
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Kurppa_Phone almost out of battery. Where is my lifeline?22:29
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Kurppa_Anybody know if there is an app for adjusting headphones 'gain'?22:30
Kurppa_Right now if I use headphones, the incoming call volume is so loud it breaks my ears.22:31
* DocScrutinizer notices the above scheme resembles to selling a fence to be painted by the meter to eager painters22:31
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Kurppa_I have to keep it loud so I can hear from the speakers that the phone ringing. They share the same volume setting.22:31
DocScrutinizer'hey, dude, it's *FUN*'22:31
jattin xchat when i click on a link the maemo browser is not launched how do I configure this?22:32
SpeedEviljatt, wfm22:32
infobotit has been said that wfm is (Wired For Management Baseline) This is an Intel hardware specification that is designed to allow for compliance with easier management of desktop PCs in a networked environment. The specification calls for computers to be compatible with a pre-boot protocol that can be used to update the system or perform other management options. Also, the computer must be compatible with network/desktop management applications..  Works ...22:32
* ptl wonders how xchat might have a pre-boot protocol that can be used toupdate the system!22:33
* ptl considers using xchat instead of flasher22:33
jattwhat is wfm? a command I need to run from the shell?22:34
ptlbeats me too22:34
ptlwrite the fucking manual?22:34
luke-jrWFM = Works For Me22:34
Kurppa_Never heard.22:34
DocScrutinizerjatt: click and hold22:34
SpeedEvilworks for me22:34
luke-jrin other words, "you are delusional"22:34
luke-jror "it's in your head"22:34
Kurppa_WFM on my PC.22:35
ptllemme check it here22:35
SpeedEviljust saying it works for me. Not that it might not fail for others.22:35
jatt;) ok will try holding a little bit more22:36
SpeedEvildo yolu get a dialog on clicking?22:36
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DocScrutinizerme? yes22:36
DocScrutinizercontext menu22:36
ptlselect it22:36
ptl'open link in browser'22:36
ptlthen microb starts22:36
ptlworked ok22:37
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ptl-n900yeah, it did22:37
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ptl-n900that's all, folks! Test complete.22:37
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jattyes it's working I wasn't holding long enough, thanks guys22:37
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DocScrutinizersure, doing that all the time22:37
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Stskeepsmoo wazd222:46
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wazd2Stskeeps: heya :)22:46
Stskeepshow's it going?22:47
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Arkenklothat's odd, I installed an application and got .2 MB free space in /22:49
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Kurppa_You could try apt-get autoremove, but even that has a bug which prevents you from doing it if you have too little space.22:53
Kurppa_Free some up soon. I22:53
Arkenklono I mean the free space increased by .2 MB22:54
Kurppa_'ve seen things getting truncated from /etc if there is too little space.22:54
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godrikhi guys22:54
Arkenklowhich is kinda odd, but I don't complain22:55
godrikdoes anybody know how to get a transparent window/widget ?22:55
Kurppa_Well, it's an on-the-fly compressing filesystem. Maybe that has something to do with it. Or maybe HAM did some cleanup.22:55
godrikI am writing a home pluging for diablo22:55
jattso do apt-get and ipkg both work on the n900?22:55
godrikI ma using a gtktextview but that's not transparent and hide my backgronud22:55
SpeedEvilsync will free deleted space22:56
godrikany idea ?22:56
jattwhich is the default package system?22:56
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wazd2Stskeeps: well, FRUCT party time is over, back to work :)22:58
Stskeepsany interesting events from there?23:00
GAN900Off Topic just went waaay off into left field.23:00
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Shapeshiftermh. I feel there's something wrong with how my n900 camera takes pictures in the dark. they're totally green23:01
Shapeshifterand the preview isn't. just the picture taken23:01
ShapeshifterI tried other white balances but they're all green23:01
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Shapeshifterand way too dark. I think it's taking the picture not while the flash is on23:02
Shapeshifterexposure is a 023:02
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jogaI started the phone app and at the same time opened the keyboard, now I can't click anything on the desktop23:03
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: aeen that, but seemed to me to be fixed with pr1.1.123:03
jogaor, uh, I can click on a contact though23:04
jogabut no shortcuts or widgets are working23:04
jogaand things seem to break as I use them, I can access one thing once and then it doesn't open any more until I try again a bit later or something :)23:05
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jogais there some process I can kill or something?23:06
DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: also I can't reproduce the issue here23:07
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jogawhat happens if I kill hildon-home or hildon-desktop, will they restart? :)23:08
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DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: what I noticed though is: autofocus on <50cm is severely flawed by overexposure, in automatic mode. Works in macro mode23:08
Kurppa_Do you guys have the same problem as me? When I take pictures in dark with Camera, the top right corner of the image is bluish because the shiny border around the lens cover is reflecting the flash back to the lens?23:08
Kurppa_I'm just wondering if that's a hardware bug, or if it's just my device.23:08
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Kurppa_joga: I think hildon-home at least restarts. Killing hildon-desktop might reboot the device.23:09
DocScrutinizerKurppa_: known issue. There's even a bug ticket for it iirc23:09
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Kurppa_Not 100 percent sure on the current implementation.23:10
jogaKurppa_: ok, let's see :)23:10
Kurppa_I see.23:10
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ShapeshifterKurppa_: black marker can fix it23:10
andre__Kurppa_, yes.
povbotBug 8168: N900 photo quality is poor--particulary bad light handling23:10
Shapeshifterhaven't tried it though as I don't really use the camera that often23:10
Kurppa_Yeah, that's what I was thinking.23:10
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* DocScrutinizer grabs the marker :-)23:11
Kurppa_Company phone though. Need to ask if I'm allowed to paint this thing :-)23:11
jogaKurppa_: hildon-home restarted and now shortcuts work, but apparently some widgets disappeared too :)23:11
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DocScrutinizershould fix it *before* it starts to get annoying23:11
Kurppa_They will come back.23:11
MartiiniDoes anyone from Nokia Finland ever come here ?? I want to ask them something23:11
Kurppa_Just pan the desktop, that might help.23:11
Kurppa_Martiini: yes.23:12
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jogaKurppa_: nah, they're gone :) but that's ok, maybe they would be there if I rebooted23:12
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SpeedEvil!bug 658423:12
povbotBug GPS geotagged pictures truncate precision of GPS reading (0 decimal places)23:12
andre__Martiini: but maybe anyone not from Nokia Finland might also know the answer?23:12
jogaor knew how to kick it..23:12
Kurppa_Yeah, reboot at least fixes things.23:12
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Martiinijust want to hear from Nokia people if they are going to release something like ... an iPhone with Android23:14
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jogawhy would anyone do that? ;)23:14
Kurppa_There are Nokians lurking here, but many that know the answer to your problem might not be reading this channel at 23:14 (11 pm) on a saturday evening.23:14
Martiinicause ... n900 isnt even close to iphone .. and .. maemo is not as good as Android23:14
SpeedEvilMartiini, what do you mean?23:14
StskeepsMartiini: are you a troll? :P23:14
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Kurppa_Or might not have the permission to answer that question :-)23:15
ArkenkloMartiini: they're not. Sorry to spoil it for ya23:15
MartiiniI mean .. nokia phones suck and they need to up their game23:15
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jogaMartiini: how long have you used the n900?23:15
Martiiniunless they intend to release somethig like   .. iphone + android23:15
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Kurppa_Martiini: it's been like that for 10 years. Buy the new HTC phone.23:15
* ptl wonders why is this troll still alive.23:15
MartiiniI dont have an n900 and not going to buy one23:16
ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: how it looks taken with n900: (WAY to dark and green), how it looks on the screen, while taking the picture: (looks fine) and how it should look (taken with my sony pocket):
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ptlMartiini: well, goodbye then.23:16
ptlMartiini: or did you come here for trolling?23:16
ShapeshifterI think that's my finger there23:16
Kurppa_I agree with him though. Don't buy it if you don't want to hack your phone.23:17
Shapeshifterah no it isnt23:17
Shapeshifterit's my mouse pad.23:17
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Kurppa_If you just want a working phone, you can get it for much cheaper :-)23:17
Shapeshifterlol I was thinking I was just covering the flash. which would have explained the darkness. But I just redid the picture. it comes out green and dark.23:17
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ArkenkloI admire apple for being able to be so incredibly restrained with their products, I wouldn't stand making a product with so much unused potential23:18
jattlol that guy comparing the n900 with the iphone23:19
jogaKurppa_: after reboot they weren't back, but I put them back again :)23:20
Kurppa_But it was supposed to be the iPhone killer!23:20
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DocScrutinizerShapeshifter: ok, it took another few shots and can confirm now23:20
Kurppa_Ah. Reboot always seemed to fix it for me.23:20
jattthe ipad?23:20
DocScrutinizerat least for macro, but I guess won't change for standard pics23:21
jogaKurppa_: maybe if I had rebooted before trying to fix it myself by killing it, it would have worked :)23:21
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ptlnote to self: collect troll energy from this Martiini guy and after that go around iphone forums trolling back, spending the energy for the greater good.23:21
Kurppa_You'd just be increasing the misery in the world.23:22
ArkenkloMartiini: what's your favourite forum?23:22
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SpeedEvil4chan, I guess.23:22
* SpeedEvil ponders 4chan browser app.23:23
Arkenklomessage board =/ forum23:23
Kurppa_Maye he's a maemo fanatic posing as an apple fanatic and is trying to get a flame war started.23:23
SpeedEvilA scrolling desktop feed of /b/23:23
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Kurppa_What am I saying.23:23
ptlKurppa_: yeah, maybe he's trying to collect arguments to use elsewhere.23:23
ptllike I said... Troll energy23:24
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ArkenkloSpeedEvil: or you could just create a forkbomb and get the same battery killing results :D23:24
ptltroll energy is what trolltech (now nokia) used to make QT and Maemo.23:24
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jattdoes the maemo browser catch its results? it looks to me it fetches pages from the net everytime23:25
DocScrutinizerincrdible. I haven't noticed any kick msg23:25
jatti mean cache23:25
jattnot catch23:26
dmj726_n9001there is a cache size limit.23:26
dmj726_n9001so yes an no23:26
dmj726_n9001you can increase the cache size.23:26
dmj726_n9001I've heard the ideal size is 40 MB23:27
jattwhen i go to the history and select the most recent entry it looks as the page is fetched again23:27
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ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: I couldn't even find an open bug report for this. I wonder if I should report it.23:28
DocScrutinizergreen img? sure23:28
DocScrutinizerI'll confirm23:28
DocScrutinizeryou already got good documentation to show23:29
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DocScrutinizertbh without that I never had noticed, as I'm really not in photgraphy that much23:29
DocScrutinizernow it's quite annoying23:29
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ShapeshifterDocScrutinizer: I rarely use the camera; for my needs it's waaay too bad. People are really excited about the image quality and it might be good "for a phone" but it's horrible imo. but stuff should at least be visible and bright and not green and dark ;)23:31
Martiini ok, so .. to me it seems Android gets more development time than Maemo ...23:31
Kurppa_Can you link the bug here when you're done?23:31
* DocScrutinizer wonders if the flash LEDs' colo temperature is maybe rising on flash, compared to torch mode23:31
Martiiniso .. Maemo is based on Debian and you can "hack" it like any linux distro .. Anroid and Iphone get more development code23:31
Martiiniam I right?23:31
MartiiniIm correct23:32
dmj726_n9001Andorid and ithing get more dedicated apps23:32
ArkenkloMartiini: the first part is correct, the second is irrelevant23:32
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: ^^^ any thoughts?23:32
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jattthe kernel has a development time of nearly decades23:32
dmj726_n9001n900 get linux apps in hours/days23:32
jattmaemo benefits from this23:33
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer, not impossible23:33
DocScrutinizer""white ballance done in torch mode doesn't fit for flashlight pictures""23:33
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Martiinibut .. one would not call n900+maemo "A PHONE" .. when you can call an iphone or HTC a "smartphone"23:35
Martiinithats what I try to sa23:35
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: My wild guess would be characteristics of the yellow flourescent change on higher energy pumping blue levels23:35
dmj726_n9001Let me know when firefox mobile with flash and ad block plus hits the app store for free.23:35
StskeepsMartiini: sounds like a perfect place for oyu23:35
ProteousI just correct my n900 pictures in photoshop23:36
ArkenkloI view it as a computer with phone-like characteristics23:36
Proteousthe flash sucks, but I rarily have lighting that is any good anyway23:36
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: tmo/off_topic, to be precise23:36
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luke-jrMartiini: no.23:37
DocScrutinizerdon't feed the troll!23:38
luke-jrMartiini: Debian and other such "distros" tend to be open source. Maemo is very much closed. Your description fits Mer and possibly MeeGo.23:38
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povbotBug 9741: Pictures taken with flash have wrong white balancing (green tint) and are too dark.23:38
Kurppa_If he's really from estonia, give him some credit. It's getting late there and it takes some dedication to come trolling late on saturday evening.23:39
Kurppa_I like the guy/gal already.23:39
Stskeepshe can stay if he brings cheap vodka23:39
Kurppa_It's all about the effort.23:40
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Martiiniluke-jr: so .. maemo should be open source instad? .. you claim maemo is not open source?23:42
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer, yes, plausible23:42
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dmj726_n9001maemo is 80 percent open source...23:43
dmj726_n9001not 100 percent23:43
luke-jrMartiini: Maemo is not open source. Fact.23:43
luke-jrdmj726_n9001: more like 40%23:43
luke-jrat least for N810/Maemo423:43
ali1234even if it was only 1% it's still the 1% that you need to do anything23:44
dmj726_n9001I refer to fremantle23:44
luke-jrfor now, I will need to defer to someone else as far as N900/Maemo523:44
luke-jrali1234: wrong23:44
luke-jrali1234: it's the useless 1%23:44
ali1234luke-jr: you have a way to charge the battery without closed bins?23:44
Kurppa_Try getting source codes for any of the maemo 5 apps..23:44
luke-jrdmj726_n9001: I've heard Fremantle is more open, and I've heard it's more closed. not sure which is accurate.23:44
Martiiniwell .. whatever ... at least they have got a serious competitor in Android, iphoneOS, windows mobile etc23:44
luke-jrali1234: nope.23:44
ali1234well then case in point23:44
luke-jrMartiini: where is the serious competitor? :(23:44
luke-jrali1234: my point :p23:45
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dmj726_n9001I heard more open...the gui layers of the apps and the drivers are closed.23:45
wazd2Stskeeps: well, same marketing dude came again :D23:45
luke-jrdmj726_n9001: what's more open then?23:45
wazd2Stskeeps: and told that nokia cares bout russian developers and stuff :D23:45
jattmartini works for apple?23:45
Martiiniwhen Nokia deliver an iPhone style phone with qt5 linux .. I buy one .. most definately23:45
dmj726_n9001I think backends stuff23:46
luke-jrMartiini: iPhone style = crap23:46
luke-jrdmj726_n9001: the drivers are all I care about tbh23:46
wazd2Stskeeps: I can feel that care with all my body actually :D23:46
dmj726_n9001like the media player backend is open but not the gui23:46
Shapeshifteriphone style, as in "can only run one app at a time"23:46
jacekowskiluke-jr: drivers can be easily reversed23:46
Martiinias in design23:46
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dmj726_n9001luke-jr...I want more driver open too23:46
luke-jrjacekowski: "easily"? no.23:47
jacekowskiluke-jr: or at least made compatible with other kernels23:47
ptlthe bad thing about all this is stablishing an iPhone as parameter.23:47
univacjacekowski: :o23:47
ali1234reversing BME would probably be quite easy, it's usespace isn't it?23:47
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ptlit's like windows vs. linux when the parameter is linux. You just can't win.23:47
luke-jrjacekowski: we have complete code for a lot of N810 hardware, but it's still expensive to port Linux to it23:47
ptlN900 is different. It achieves other purposes.23:47
ptlmuch better purposes.23:47
luke-jrali1234: BME is quite large.23:47
ptland it's open, flexible, hackable.23:47
jacekowskiit's still a phone23:47
jacekowskiluke-jr: but that's userland23:48
ali1234so? it talks d-bus or whatever, it can be traced23:48
jacekowskiluke-jr: and can be just moved to different OS easily23:48
luke-jrjacekowski: no, I'm referring to driver code23:48
Stskeepswazd2: you're getting thinner? :P23:48
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luke-jrjacekowski: "can be just moved" does not justify proprietary23:48
* Shapeshifter wonders if the n900 will adjust the time tonight.23:49
luke-jrShapeshifter: why would it?23:49
luke-jrdaylight savings was like 2 weeks ago23:49
Shapeshifterluke-jr: because it knows my time zone23:49
jacekowskibesides, unless i don't know something23:49
wazd2Stskeeps: yeah, and loosing hair :D23:49
Shapeshifterluke-jr: here it is tonight.23:49
jacekowskiwhat's so complicated in BME23:49
jacekowskithat it's huge23:49
luke-jrShapeshifter: well, if it's half-sane, it uses UTC internally23:49
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wazd2Stskeeps: oh, and Forum.Nokia guy was hilarious23:49
wazd2Stskeeps: he spent 15 minutes describing all that ddp and stuff23:50
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luke-jrjacekowski: probably nothing23:50
wazd2Stskeeps: and then Vlad asked "You know that all that ddp magic doesn't actually work in Russia, right?"23:50
luke-jrjacekowski: if things were only as large as they needed to be, we could get by with Maemo in 16 MB RAM23:51
ali1234ha ha, xorg in 16mb, maybe 15 years ago...23:51
jacekowskiwell it's doing same thing23:51
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jacekowskibut using more memory23:51
luke-jrjacekowski: as memory gets cheaper, it's traded in for development time23:52
luke-jrmore abstraction, higher-level languages, etc chew up memory23:52
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luke-jrI reverse engineered a lot of N8x0 BMEs, but it's still huge :/23:53
jacekowskia lot?23:53
jacekowskidefine a lot in your case23:54
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luke-jrI forget, lemme look quickly23:54
jonaskoe1kerHi all.  I'm using the jabber conversations plugin to be available for facebook chat.  Some of my contacts have jabber accounts attached to them, yet don't show as having any online/busy/etc status.  How come?23:54
jonaskoe1kerAnd how do I fix this in time O(1) in the number of contacts? :)23:55
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luke-jrabout 163 functions or so23:55
jacekowskiand total for n8x0 is?23:56
Kurppa_jonaskoe1ker: do you know that they are in fact signed into facebook?23:56
jonaskoe1kerKurppa_: what do you mean?  "Do you know that account number ${n} exists?"?23:56
Kurppa_And that the account is online?23:56
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jonaskoe1kerKurppa_: I know that every account has _some_ online-ness status23:57
jonaskoe1kerKurppa_: I don't care what it is, I just want to see it in my contacts list23:57
jonaskoe1kerKurppa_: I know that people exist on facebook, because I've befriended them there23:57
luke-jrjacekowski: 52723:58
Kurppa_I mean that for the account entry to show the facebook chat option, the contact you're trying to chat with must be online.23:58
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Kurppa_Maybe I misunderstood you though.23:58
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jonaskoe1kerKurppa_: you might have.  I have my facebook friend "Alice" on my contacts list.  There's no green circle, nor a white circle with a cross, nor anything else next to her name.23:59

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