IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2010-03-03

ShapeshifterI mean, I also see it's the name of the file, some sort of revision maybe, a date and his name... but why?00:00
GeneralAntillesjavispedro, the logo in there is a bit ironic.00:00
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javispedroGeneralAntilles: the entire ad is weird.00:01
v13Shapeshifter: It's from the svn. just ignore it. it's useful for knowing what revision is this file from.00:01
javispedroI wonder what it tries to .. symbolize.00:01
GeneralAntillesjavispedro, apparently Mozilla employees are all moles?00:01
spider_Firefox is still too slow compared to MicroB00:01
javispedroGeneralAntilles: I understood the opposite: that all Nokia employees (and are moles, working underground for the only Mozilla employee.00:01
Shapeshifterv13: I see00:02
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v13Shapeshifter: fwiw, it says: revision 2266 changes 2010-02-21 19:33:27Z by v1300:02
GeneralAntillesjavispedro, who only does QA? :D00:02
pupnikzoutube also cannot accept youtube urls directly00:03
javispedroheh, if his paws allow him to do qa :)00:03
Shapeshifterv13: mhh00:03
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SpeedEvilFirefox is often faster than microb I find00:04
SpeedEvileven usually, on slower networks00:04
GeneralAntillesjavispedro, I bet they work great on the capacitive N900+1. :rolleyes:00:04
* javispedro wonders where is the underground mole base00:04
javispedroin Finland for sure, since it's all snowy >:)00:04
spider_SpeedEvil: really? faster than MicroB?00:04
SpeedEvilspider_: yes.00:05
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SpeedEvilspider_: forex ~20%-30% faster at painting www.slashdot.com00:05
SpeedEvilspider_: especially if you kill microb first00:05
spider_mmhh...maybe downloading webpages...but opening windows, options and so on I found it slower00:05
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GeneralAntillesOnly because the Gecko is newer.00:06
SpeedEvilspider_: perhaps - in some ways. Tabs is a great speedup for me00:06
GeneralAntillesPR1.2 may catch up.00:06
spider_yeah, I agree00:06
SpeedEvilThe task manager blows in general - which is the larger problem00:06
GeneralAntillesFennec has a newer, faster engine, MicroB has the faster native UI.00:06
SpeedEvilyou can't flip between windows.00:06
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GeneralAntillesSpeedEvil, somebody has a patched h-d running around somewhere.00:07
GeneralAntillesSpeedEvil, do you have the camera key/proximity daemon installed?00:07
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: yes. camkeyd IIRC00:07
Shapeshifterso, in which repo is this firefox. I can't seem to find it00:08
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GeneralAntillesShapeshifter, Ovi Store :rolleyes:00:09
GeneralAntillesBecause the Mozilla people are lazy bastards.00:09
GeneralAntillesShapeshifter, seriously.00:09
javispedroI guess Nokia may have played a part in this.00:10
GeneralAntillesThey couldn't be bothered to fix their packaging so they decided to distribute through the Ovi Store.00:10
Shapeshifterthe firefox people should get their whole app structure sorted anyway00:10
Shapeshifterwhat a mess.00:10
* Shapeshifter is only waiting for chromium to get a frontend to no-script like features (which have finally been implemented for a couple of weeks) to switch away from that lazy fox00:11
Shapeshifter(on the desktop)00:11
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pupnikwhat is better than microb Shapeshifter ?00:12
lcukthanks matthew- :)00:12
lcukis there a maemo tunes radio station :p00:12
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pupnikwith javacrap pausing it doesnt chew much cpu usually00:12
Arif_anyone know if you can tell KMPlayer to play a file with a shortcut?00:13
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Shapeshifterpupnik: mh? I meant, on the desktop, where I'm using firefox, I'm waiting for chromium to get a wee bit better to switch. on the n900, I'm using microb. I don't find it that bad. Tad slow really00:13
Shapeshifterwhich is to be expected00:14
* n00bmonk3y blinks00:15
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javispedroyou all need to play a bit with a n810.00:20
javispedroif you say "microb is slow".00:20
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* javispedro wonders which wikipedia admin allowed
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Shapeshifterjavispedro: guess so. It's still like 5-50 times slower then anything I have on my lap top. I'd still say mobile computing sucks big time. The n900 is actually my first mobile on contract that does more then just SMS...00:25
pupnikheh true javispedro00:25
Shapeshifterit's pretty decent. Actually, I love it :D Still, it's relatively bad. Or, far away of what I'd like to have00:25
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ClaesBasDoes anybody here know howto get ÅÄÖ to work (UTF-8) with OpenSSH from the N900 to "screen:ed irssi"?00:27
v13javispedro: that article is not locked in any way, so there was no need for "allowing". You can change it yourself :)00:27
nid0the n900's browsing experience is the first i've found that stands up against my archos imt (which is really nice to browse with), so things are at least going in the right direction00:27
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javispedrov13: if I delete the entire paragraph (which is the only real solution) the only thing I'm going to create is a flame war.00:28
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nid0I saved you the trouble.00:29
javispedrospeaking about flames, piracy thread in tmo.00:29
v13javispedro: I believe it is ok if you delete it and move it in the "discussion" page00:30
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javispedronid0: well, thanks :D00:30
Arif_piracy is bad 'mkay00:30
luke-jryes, please do not kill innocent people while you raid their ships at high seas00:30
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javispedroah, the entire article's been trolled now00:32
luke-jrjavispedro: why not allow it?00:32
javispedroluke-jr: did you really read it?00:32
luke-jrjavispedro: yeah00:33
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luke-jrit gets slightly off-topic, but other than that...00:33
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luke-jrthat isn't ARM...00:33
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XisdibikHeya everyone00:36
Xisdibikhows everyone today?00:36
Arif_I saved myself a lot of time today :P00:36
pupnik   nice side scroller in pygame00:37
Xisdibiksounds scary00:37
Arif_port it to maemo!00:37
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XisdibikArif_: ive been productive today at work too, its 2:30 and im finally eating lunch.  Wish i didnt have to be productive today though as its my birthday.00:38
Arif_I don't work00:38
Arif_oh sorry to hear you got old ;(00:38
Xisdibik25 isnt that old!00:38
SpeedEvilXisdibik: yes it is.00:38
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Arif_I'm not even 20!00:38
Xisdibikyou young whippersnappers!00:39
Arif_there you go00:39
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Xisdibikwhy i remember when i was young, we had to walk 20 miles in the snow, with no shoes, just to get to school00:39
Arif_good luck finding snow in .nl00:39
Xisdibikgood luck finding snow in Berkeley California :P00:40
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Xisdibiktheres snow here about once every 50 years00:40
Arif_I walk 100m to the bus stop00:40
Arif_that's far too :(00:40
XisdibikI drive for about 1.5 miles to a subway station00:40
Xisdibikand then take the subway for 30-45 minutes to work00:40
Arif_I take the bus for 45 minutes00:40
Arif_then the metro for 10 minutes00:40
Arif_to go to school ;(00:40
Arif_damn uni :P00:41
Arif_it should be closer!00:41
v13pytowerdefense ???00:41
SpeedEvilArif_: Live in a toilet.00:41
Xisdibikto get to school i drive to the subway station, then take the subway for 1 hour, and then take a school shuttle for 15 minutes00:41
v13ok.. that's a good one for n900 most probably :)00:41
Xisdibiklike a bus,  but it only stops at the subway station, and the school00:41
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v13(that one:
Arif_I was imagining you flying around the moon00:42
pupniki think we have a towerdefense clone, no v13 ?00:42
v13which is that ?00:42
* v13 slow00:42
* Xisdibik fast00:42
XisdibikI would love to seen Bloons Tower Defense 1-4 ported to Maemo00:43
Arif_I'd like to see all games ported00:43
Arif_you can never have enough games00:43
Xisdibiki could do without Hello Kitty Island Adventure00:44
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Arif_hello kitty is cute :D00:44
luke-jrArif_: I'll port Armagetron if you get me a N900 ;p00:44
XisdibikI prefer Totoro00:44
Xisdibikluke-jr: u still dont have one yet?00:44
luke-jrXisdibik: nope00:44
Arif_luke-jr, it took me 2 months to get my own00:44
Xisdibikluke-jr: cant you second mortgage your soul to the devil for one?00:44
pupnikimpressive number of pygame projects00:45
luke-jrXisdibik: not worth it00:45
nid0sure it is00:45
Arif_at the end I gave up00:45
Arif_and got one 2nd hand00:45
nid0took me about 2 months to get as well thanks to shitty o2 being shit :<00:45
luke-jrwhy get a device with 256 MB RAM when devices with 1 GB RAM are coming out?00:46
pupnikv13: i seem to recall a thread on t.m.o00:46
luke-jrespecially when it's such a steep price00:46
Arif_because they run javadroid?00:46
luke-jrArif_: and?00:46
Xisdibikluke-jr: because i want you to port Armagetron to it so i can play00:46
nid0I hear amount of ram === the only thing needed to make a good phone?00:46
Arif_they don't like streaming video :*00:46
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luke-jrArif_: I would only tolerate Maemo to port Armagetron for you. after that, Maemo gets wiped00:46
matthew-uh my n900 is kinda not usable w/o external headphones or smth00:46
luke-jrnid0: nope, but it's a big factor; also, I don't want a phone00:46
nid0phone speaker dead?00:47
Arif_matthew-, because the speakers suck?00:47
luke-jrmatthew-: I hear Nokia fixes speakers w/ warranty00:47
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luke-jrnid0: in any case, RAM is basically the only good thing I see in N90000:48
javispedroI was going to say that RAM is the worst part of it..00:48
luke-jrjavispedro: yeah, RAM00:48
Arif_I don't need 1GB of RAM to stream TV shows =P00:49
luke-jrArif_: and TV shows are useless00:49
Arif_what I do need is a bigger screen00:49
nid0hd2 is the phone to get then if you want screen size00:49
luke-jrArif_: exactly my point00:49
luke-jrN900 screen < N900 RAM00:49
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javispedrowell, that is true too :)00:49
Arif_I don't want crashdows mobile00:49
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luke-jrnid0: I want at minimum 512 MB RAM, 4" screen, USABLE keyboard, etc00:49
nid0dont fail at using it and winmo doesnt crash00:49
luke-jrArif_: learn to port Linux00:50
microlithnid0: you shouldn't need to be careful with an OS for it to not crash00:50
Arif_maybe I'll get a WP7 phone00:50
Arif_when they port coreplayer00:50
nid0and you dont need to be careful with winmo, you have to utterly fail at it00:50
luke-jrI hope Nexus Two is decent00:50
Arif_coreplayer was so awesome ;(00:50
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javispedroit will still be capacitive and use android00:50
luke-jrjavispedro: if it's actually free software for hw support, better than Maemo00:51
microlithfat chance of that00:51
javispedrooh, who knows.00:51
nid0even my girlfriend's been able to use her hd2 for almost 3 months without so much as a blip from it, and shes the kind of person who technology just tends to break around00:51
microlithandroid has all the same hardware support issues maemo has00:51
luke-jrspeaking of which, anyone ever confirm N1's actual software status?00:51
luke-jrmicrolith: Android in general, yes. Google's own phone... no?00:52
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microlithluke-jr: google isn't special, it's just an HTC phone with google's logo00:52
javispedroluke-jr: interesting topic nevertheless. if you ever create a report, please post it somewhere :)00:52
luke-jrmicrolith: but Google set the requirements00:52
microlithmeans nothing00:52
microliththey spec'd it00:52
luke-jrmicrolith: means quite a bit, from what I see.00:52
GeneralAntillesmicrolith, +300:52
microliththey can't say "all the drivers will be open" and I suspect they don't care00:53
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luke-jrGoogle required users to be able to root it with a documented method00:53
microlithfor the N1, yes00:53
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microlithbut that doesn't mean -anything- with respect to drivers00:53
Arif_are there any external media players for android?00:53
Xisdibikheya GeneralAntilles00:53
Arif_-external +3rd party00:54
Xisdibikhow goes things?00:54
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GeneralAntillesXisdibik, having a nice glass of Cabernet Sauvignon and playing Forza 3.00:55
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ArkenoiNo need to port Tower Defence if we were able to get flash mouse events working properly00:56
Arif_flash is too batteryeatingish00:58
lardmannight all00:58
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pupnikagree with Arif_01:00
SpeedEvilThe people doing gnash should see if they can get energy efficiency grants.01:01
SpeedEvilCutting flash power use by half has to be worth several powerstations01:01
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Vanadis__how do i manually execute the media player database update01:03
SpeedEvilOr firing squad.01:03
xorAxAxhow do i turn on the mouse pointer?01:04
xorAxAxi need it for x2x01:04
SpeedEvilkilling and restarting the tracker daemon should do it - but it has a watchdog - so it will reboot youre device01:04
Corsacca certificates list is weird01:04
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javispedroVanadis__: tracker-processes -r then start media player.01:04
Corsactimeless_mbp2: do you know where the ca list comes from? (is it the standard nss list, for example?)01:04
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Corsacseems that the list isn't up to date01:07
n00bmonk3yhmmm anyone a pyqt person? :D - i R Need help!01:07
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XisdibikGeneralAntilles: sounds like your having fun, im leaving work 15 minutes early (cuz its mah birthday), and going home to dishes and homework :/01:15
SpeedEvilXisdibik: Have fun!01:15
XisdibikSpeedEvil: thanks :D01:16
SpeedEvilXisdibik: Put some good tunes on, and wash to the beat.01:16
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Arif_anyone know if you can hide icons from the menu?01:16
tremnite all, sweet dreams01:16
burchrGeneralAntilles: oh dear.. :P01:17
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GeneralAntillesburchr, hmm?01:17
burchrGeneralAntilles: just saw the ML thread01:17
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GeneralAntillesburchr, yeah, fun.01:17
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* n00bmonk3y grumbles...... Grrrrr PyQt Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr01:20
w00tn00bmonk3y: what's up?01:20
n00bmonk3ypyqt smells of poo....... want the detail? lol01:20
n00bmonk3yall i want is a message box.... (with no buttons)... just like hildon note, but they dont seem to exist in simple ways in qt :(01:21
n00bmonk3yso it pops up, whilst loading then goes.......01:21
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n00bmonk3yor pops up for a second after loading and sys loaded for a second01:21
n00bmonk3yi dont see the point in forcing someone to press when i just want to let them know it is done...01:22
SpeedEvilmake one massive button01:22
n00bmonk3ylol ;)01:22
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n00bmonk3ywould work better then nothing :)01:22
SpeedEviland pop it down after 1s anyway01:22
acidjazzwhen do the nokia nazi zeppelins come across the lands sending out zaps bricking our n900's forcing us to purchase x86 intel n1000's01:22
n00bmonk3yjust bugs me, hildon and gtk have answers... qt doesnt and thats the 1 we are getting stuck with :(01:23
n00bmonk3yok, tis also the one i started learning, so self inflicted01:23
* n00bmonk3y slaps lcuck01:23
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* n00bmonk3y slaps lcuk, after spelling it correctly01:24
wiretappedacidjazz: last thursday01:24
Vanadis__good night everyone01:24
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w00tyou probably want a QMaemo5InformationBox01:24
* n00bmonk3y raises an eyebrow01:24
w00tbut I don't think PyQt will wrap that yet, as it's a Maemo specific class, and Qt 4.6+ only01:24
n00bmonk3yhmmm so wont work?01:25
n00bmonk3yi mean, now in my normall app :(01:25
w00tPySide will probably wrap it, but PySide isn't as mature as PyQt. I don't know if PyQt plan to wrap stuff like that - you'd need to ask them.01:25
n00bmonk3yooo but looking at it, yes!!!01:25
n00bmonk3yi want i want!01:25
n00bmonk3ycheers woot :( - looks perfect, but still no answer for the now :(01:26
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w00tno, but you know who to ask :)01:26
* w00t wanders off to bed, as it's late01:26
n00bmonk3yhehe :)01:26
n00bmonk3ytrue i think01:26
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n00bmonk3ydo i?01:26
n00bmonk3ylol nite!01:26
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n00bmonk3yanyway where is qwery and lcuk01:27
GeneralAntillesqwerty12's disappeared.01:27
SpeedEvilhe's gone for the operation.01:27
SpeedEvilHe's gonna be azerty when he gets back.01:27
arachnisteww. he could at least end up as dvorak01:28
* arachnist knows how to type on dvorak)01:28
n00bmonk3yi still need to learn how to type lol01:28
zasharachnist: :D01:28
SpeedEvilI have given up learning to properly type.01:28
SpeedEvilI'm at the stage wherre I can go 40wpm under the covers, which is fine for me.01:29
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SpeedEvilI want another keyboard though - with a trackpoint.01:29
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pupnikSpeedEvil: im still lovin my spacesaver II01:31
SpeedEvil would be my ideal keyboard.01:32
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n00bmonk3yhmmmm assuming you cant use pyside and pyqt at the same time?01:34
SpeedEvilGeneralAntilles: won't ship to me. Also the usb one has stupid extra keys.01:34
n00bmonk3yso this makes me more annoyed, hildon, gtk and pyside have an answer, and effing pyqt cant do it....01:35
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GeneralAntillesSpeedEvil, ah, too bad.01:36
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kinetikis it possible to change (or append to) the kernel boot command line on the n900?01:39
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pupnik>the guruguru board will be sweet01:40
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pupnikgood q kinetik01:40
kinetikalternatively, knowing safe start/end memory addresses for the cmemk kernel module with the default kernel would be awesome01:42
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kinetikor a way to pass a bc-cat allocated buffer to the dsp for writing so that the machine doesn't crash :-)01:43
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kinetikwould i be better asking in #maemo-devel?01:44
derfI would ask felipec, but it doesn't look like he's here now.01:44
kinetikgood idea01:45
derfIt _is_ after midnight in Finland.01:45
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Lumpio-Isn't that when people are most active?01:47
SpeedEvilDoes he turn into a pumpkin after midnight?01:47
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mmarc__hello, guys, I've modified /etc/sudoers badly, and now root mode is unavailable due to corrupted sudoers file. Could you please help to recover? What is update-sudeors? Seems like I have not got it...02:26
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arachnistmmarc__: install openssh server02:30
mmarc__I've got it02:30
arachnistmmarc__: it should permit root logins and ask you for a root password when installing02:30
Arkenoiunpacking easydebian image takes more that 3 hours :-/02:31
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mmarc__how could I install anything if app manager won't work with corrupted sudoers?02:32
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mmarc__typing root in ssh session returns02:32
mmarc__>>> sudoers file: syntax error, line 75 <<<02:32
mmarc__sudo: parse error in /etc/sudoers near line 7502:32
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mmarc__arachnist: sorry, unclear, could you please explain02:34
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SpeedEvilmmarc__: In the absence of anyuone with better ideas - if you can't become root - you can't fix it.02:35
SpeedEvilYou're gonna need to flash.02:35
SpeedEvilAt least if you can't install stuff too02:35
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mmarc__and what is update-sudoers?02:36
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Flandrygreetings maemoans02:36
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mmarc__I also have opened Xterminal on N900, but I cannot type to it due to some reason, probably, after vimming02:41
mmarc__*I also have opened ROOT Xterminal on N900, but I cannot type to it due to some reason, probably, after vimming02:41
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mmarc__any guide or howto for refalsh??02:48
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mmarc__another question: any chance to access apt-like repository for maemo? Everything I've succeeded with is installable only through app manager gui.02:57
mgregsondmmarc__: Maemo runs apt.02:57
GeneralAntillesmmarc__, the application manager is just an apt front-end. . . .02:57
mgregsondmmarc__: That thing just...02:57
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mgregsondmmarc__: nvm, he beat me to it.02:57
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mmarc__That's not so for me, I can't install anything with apt-get, it cannot find packages...02:59
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cehtehbe careful with manual apt ... it easily fills up your root partition03:00
mmarc__Is anybody maintaining custom repos?03:00
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cehtehsome do03:00
GeneralAntillesmmarc__, Extras provides you with just about everything you need.03:01
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GeneralAntillesapt-get works just fine here.03:01
GeneralAntillesThe packages you're looking for simply may not exist.03:01
mmarc__how, for example, with midnight commander? Can't find it.03:01
mgregsondmmarc__: Huh?  apt-cache search03:01
mmarc__also I tried apt-get install dosbox, that was not found, but it definitely exist03:02
mgregsondmmarc__: What package are you trying to install?03:02
mmarc__dosbox, foe example03:02
mgregsondmmarc__: Ok, have you enabled the repository that dosbox is in?03:02
mmarc__Ugh, probably not, it's unclear how it operates repositories...03:04
mgregsondmmarc__: It's apt.03:04
mgregsondmmarc__: It operates repositories in the usual apt manner.03:04
mmarc__okay, I'll try again after reflash, thanks!03:04
cehtehwell .. with some fairy dust .. by nokia03:04
mgregsondcehteh: Okay, there's extra cruft, but the core is apt.  It just does magic to make pretty pictures.03:05
mmarc__another thing to ask is what's the propetiary crap are we forced instead of openoffice?03:05
mmarc__Docs2go or something like that03:05
cehtehand not to fill up the rootfs .. and being able to distributed payware03:05
mgregsondmmarc__: Openoffice is MASSIVE.03:05
mgregsondcehteh: Oh?  It can handle payware?03:05
lcukam i the only person scared to even breath on a device being flashed?03:06
mmarc__so, what?03:06
cehtehovi store?03:06
mgregsondcehteh: How?  How do they stop you from just cp the .deb?03:06
cehtehdunno how it works03:06
mgregsondcehteh: Ok, but dpkg could handle downloadable binaries.03:06
* lcuk has done it from day 1 of flashing pc bios03:06
cehtehmgregsond: maybe https and client certs .. i dont know03:06
mgregsondlcuk: I'm terrified of touching anything.  I like to leave the room.  Wont even play loud music.  ;)03:06
mgregsondcehteh: Interesting.03:06
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mgregsondcehteh: I'll have to track down proper info on this.03:07
cehtehtry to install something from ovi store and figure out .. i have no idea how thats implemented03:07
GeneralAntilleslcuk, the danger period for flashing is fractions of a second long.03:07
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mmarc__okay, except openoffice, there is abiword, for example. But why this 2Go crap?03:07
mgregsondcehteh: Ovistore just looked lame...03:07
GeneralAntillesNOLO is about 8KB last item I checked03:07
lcukGeneralAntilles, dont say danger period lol03:07
GeneralAntillesFlashing goes at about 5-8MB/sec03:07
lcukits just flashing in general03:08
lcuki stop everything im doing on all machines for a few moments03:08
mgregsondmmarc__: I haven't used it, so I don't know how well it actually works.03:08
mgregsondmmarc__: There is nothing stopping you from porting/building an armel package for abiword...03:08
lcukthere has been nothing stopping many from doing same, afaik qole had it running nicely inside his chroot, whether the extra effort to get it direct in maemo is worth it is another matter (i might be wrong about actual word processor)03:09
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cehtehhey texlive is packaged and emacs too (externally).. i doubt thats smaller then openoffice :)03:10
mgregsondcehteh: Seriously?03:10
lcukim thinking mainly about ui changes required03:10
mgregsondcehteh: OpenOffice is enormous.03:10
cehtehtexlive is massive03:10
cehteh(when you install all bells and whistles)03:11
uhsfPelikon's MorphPad is what the N900 keyboard should've been.03:11
lcukuhsf, that morphpad is neat :) extremely innovative use of masking03:12
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cehtehanyone here likes packaging for maemo? ... i think i hack a notification light blinker on battery low later but i dont have interest in packaging it03:13
cehtehabi word is packaged too btw .. never used it03:13
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cehtehAfter this operation, 123MB of additional disk space will be used.03:15
cehtehEgS: You don't have enough free space in /var/cache/apt/archives/.03:15
cehteh... texlive03:15
mgregsondcehteh: That pissed me off when archives ran out of space.03:16
mgregsondcehteh: I don't mind packaging your shit up if you've got everything else done.03:16
cehtehthats what the app updater cares for .. using some other temp dir03:17
Arkenoi2go "crap" is way faster and works with non-native document formats way better03:17
mgregsondcehteh: Actually...  the app updater ran out of space.03:17
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mgregsondcehteh: I had to work around it by updating from the command line and forcing it to cache in MyDocs.03:17
cehtehwell the partitioning .. or rather mounts are fuba03:18
mgregsondcehteh: Totally.03:18
mgregsondcehteh: It feels like the disk layout and partitioning schemes were designed by an untrained ape on cocaine.03:18
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cehtehi saied that serveral times :P03:19
mgregsondcehteh: Do you by any chance know what package provides the messaging stack?03:20
cehtehmessaging stack?03:20
mgregsondcehteh: dbus/telepathy/empathy/...03:20
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mmarc__any other good console client available?03:21
mgregsondAh, I'll look it up later..03:21
cehtehmaybe all in 'mamemo5'03:21
mgregsondmmarc__: huh?03:21
mgregsondcehteh: This is a virtual for many others yes?03:21
mmarc__instead of Xterminal03:21
cehtehmmarc__: not that i know, why?03:21
mgregsondmmarc__: Have you considered purchasing an actual computer?03:21
cehtehssh :)03:22
mgregsondcehteh: That's my favourite.03:22
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cehtehwell and the osso-xterm is ok when you have to work on the device .. whats the problem03:22
mgregsondmmarc__: Again, it's running X, you could probably get gnome-terminal running if you want.03:22
mmarc__cmon, guys, I justwant black background, I won't be blind before 50 years old watching white windows all the time!03:23
cehtehsomeone once wanted to package rxvt-unicode03:23
mgregsondcehteh: Epic.  Any idea how big it wound up being?03:23
cehtehbut i think any non hildonized terminal would be worse than the osso-xterm03:23
Arkenoiunpacking easydebian image - almost 4 hours and still working03:23
mgregsondmmarc__: Hmm, interesting proposal.03:24
cehtehmmarc__: that can be configured03:24
mgregsondcehteh: In osso-xterm?03:24
mgregsondcehteh: How?03:24
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cehtehfont config03:25
mgregsondcehteh: Ah, one is bg one is fg?03:25
mgregsondcehteh: They show up as unlabeled grey squares for me.03:26
mgregsondcehteh: Totally not clear what they do.03:26
cehtehoh come one03:26
mgregsondcehteh: I didn't test them out.  ;)03:26
mmarc__for me too03:26
mgregsondmmarc__: Ok, so the left one is the fg, the right one is the bg.03:27
mgregsondmmarc__: Unless I've forgotten the outcome of my experiment and it's the other way around. ;)03:27
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mmarc__hey! It works! Cehteh, thanks, you know, what is behing that gray squares!03:28
mmarc__hm, I need a maemo happiness desktop applet03:29
mmarc__my eyes are saying thanks03:29
mgregsondcehteh: lol, alright fine, I should have tried them03:29
mgregsondcehteh: Still, UI fail for not making things immediately clear.03:29
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mmarc__also I have two technical questions03:38
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mmarc__1) is N900's ARM multicore?03:38
mmarc__2) what maemo apps benefit from dsp circuit?03:39
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GeneralAntillesVideo playback03:39
mgregsondmmarc__: I doubt that the processor is multicore.03:40
cehtehfor some definition of multicore .. dunno if the other cores are arm .. its not SMP there is only one main core03:40
GeneralAntillesWell, there are several cores on the SoC03:40
cehtehthe dsp, gpu are some cores and the broadband chipset itself is prolly 2-3 cores03:41
mmarc__i.e. is this video playback source closed03:41
GeneralAntillesCellular is not on the OMAP, however.03:41
cehtehall are not available for direct programming, DSP to some extent iirc03:41
GeneralAntillesmmarc__, which part?03:41
GeneralAntillesmmarc__, the backend is MAFW03:41
mmarc__dsp part03:41
GeneralAntillesWhich plugs into GStreamer03:41
GeneralAntillesDunno if the DSP codec is open03:41
GeneralAntillesDepends on which video codec we're talking about, probably.03:42
mmarc__okay, anything else except video uses dsp?03:42
cehtehmplayer doesnt use the dsp for example03:42
mmarc__well, reasonable03:42
GeneralAntillesThere's some various 3rd-party stuff03:42
cehtehthe camera and some voice codecs for speech/telephony afaik03:42
mmarc__skype maybe?03:43
GeneralAntillesCamera has its own core.03:43
cehtehreally .. ok ... one core more03:43
cehtehmmarc__: generally speakin you can only access and programm on the main cpu03:44
Arkenoii still miss "phone-as-separate-hardware-thing" approach from old communicators03:44
cehtehArkenoi: it is03:44
GeneralAntillesCellular chipset isn't in the OMAP.03:44
cehtehwell and hosts the GPS03:44
Arkenoiwell, we need a responsive UI to answer a call03:45
cehtehah ok03:45
Arkenoiand it is not always possible while cpu is heavy loaded03:45
mgregsondArkenoi: That needs to be fixed yes.03:45
cehtehyes all its io goes through the main os03:45
mgregsondSome of the apps or daemons generate high load.03:45
cehtehbut actually i like it this way more .. i have already bad feeling about the gps in the broadband chipset03:45
mgregsondI've seen pulse spike up pretty badly.03:45
sar3tha propos pulse03:46
sar3this it possible to configure pulse so that the left channel of the output is louder than the right one (for the headset)03:46
sar3thbecause my headset is borked, and i don't want to send it in yet ;)03:46
cehtehsure your ears arent borked?03:47
GeneralAntillescehteh, GPS isn't is the cellular chipset is it?03:47
cehtehwell it should be possible .. somewhere in the settings in /etc03:47
GeneralAntillesCellular is Nokia, GPS is TI. . . .03:47
sar3thcehteh: yes03:47
sar3thto ensure, i switched the things you put in ear03:47
sar3thhow do you call them >_>03:48
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sar3thwell anyway, it's NOT just in my mind :P03:48
cehtehhuh nokia makes its own chipsets? i thought thats ti too .. but i am quite sure that the gps is attached there .. dunno if that are just io connections to some rather dumb gps or its integrated in the chisept03:48
cehtehbut it is not accessible directly from the main core03:49
sar3thSpeedEvil: /flushq03:50
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GeneralAntillesYeah, Nokia makes its own chipsets. ;)03:51
GeneralAntillesThat's the piece of hardware Nokia is bringing to the MeeGo party.03:52
sar3thhow about pulse audio help?03:52
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* Arkenoi wishes there will be full dtg someday. 03:52
GeneralAntillesKernel sources point to a WiLink 6.0 or 7.0 solution for N900+1.03:52
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mgregsondGeneralAntilles: What's the plan for the MeeGo thing anyways?03:53
GeneralAntillesmgregsond, hell if I know. ;)03:53
mgregsondGeneralAntilles: One OS to suck on all platforms? ;)03:54
* Xisdibik points at GeneralAntilles's horns. Yes... Hell... you do know!03:54
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mmarc__hey, why Maemo Extra reports Unable to find expected entry user/binary-armel/ ... malformed release file03:57
mgregsondmmarc__: What's the URL you fed in?03:58
mgregsondmmarc__: And the other settings?03:59
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Arkenoiwhat is the size of the unpacked debian-m5-v3b.img.ext2 ? could anyone check please? i'd like to know how much is left..03:59
mmarc__oh, the components field was incorrect, my bad04:00
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Pillumi hate it when games are just designed for the us keyboard layout04:03
javispedro... and they don't have configurable bindings.04:04
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Pillummmhhhh......I ♥ peanut butter04:06
Pillumits so delicious04:06
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orbarronhello all: I just downloaded osso-applet-screencalibration-l10n-zhhk --> is there a way to run this? and where is it installed?04:17
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cehtehorbarron: normally thats part of the settings .. that package above is only some localization for ot04:17
orbarronso I am missing for setting apps...04:18
* orbarron has one off environment04:18
orbarronis there a way to get the calibration app?04:18
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orbarroncehteh: my environment does not have this calibration tool in settings. even if it did I am not sure I can access is since my touch is way off04:19
mgregsondorbarron: Have you restarted the app in question to get it to use the new settings?04:20
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cehtehorbarron: it should be on a stock device .. makes me wonder if its not there04:20
* orbarron believes it should have it... but for some reason it is missing04:21
* orbarron so wondering if it is possible to just get this app.04:21
microliththe calibration tool is under the settings app04:22
* orbarron wonder if settings app is available?04:22
uhsfit's cool that nokia ovi music store is drm-free. one more + for me to appreciate my n900. now if they could sell .ogg and .flac i could even buy music online one day, who knows04:24
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orbarronhow about this one: hildon-im-plugin-base-settings04:25
cehtehthere is a music store?04:25
mmarc_After I set up user and root passwords, app manager now shows empty repos list, reporting in log the apt worker has exited. What might be the issue?04:25
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sar3thuhsf: i agree about the flac part :D04:26
sar3thand if the flac support was fixed, it'd be awesome, too04:27
mmarc_Oh, and niw it is ok, strange...04:27
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KEROLiUKAS is this page down or just me?04:44
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sar3thhave the advanced music format support packages STILL not been fixed? D:04:51
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trip0anyone know if video chat works with skype on the\n900?05:16
microlithI think that's scheduled for the next big update05:17
luke-jrSkype should be banned from the internet :P05:26
Xisdibikluke-jr: nevar05:29
luke-jrXisdibik: Skype sucks05:29
Xisdibikluke-jr: not for me05:29
luke-jrI meant objectively ;P05:29
Xisdibikwithout skype my mom and nephew wouldnt be able to webchat05:29
luke-jrwhy not?05:30
Xisdibikbecause my mom and my sister are totally not tech savvy enough to use something else?05:30
luke-jrwhy do you need to use Skype if you're not tech savvy?05:30
Xisdibikbecause its just a simple install thats very simple to use05:30
Xisdibikits also handy that you can call real telephones if need be05:31
luke-jrand they're too stupid to use Gizmo or Google Talk?05:33
luke-jror any of the many other simple standards-compliant clients?05:33
XisdibikGoogle Talk requires a gmail account05:34
Xisdibikwhich my mom and sister dont have05:34
luke-jrbut can easily get05:35
XisdibikGizmo they dont know anything about05:35
luke-jrsame went for Skype before they learned about it05:35
GAN900Gizmo > Skype05:35
XisdibikI personally feel skype's sound and video quality are good (given a good connection)05:35
XisdibikI personally havnt used Gizmo, so i cant agree or disagree05:36
Xisdibikbut given that i have about 180 people on my skype list05:36
GAN900It's Skype, but with open codecs. :P05:36
Xisdibiki cant give it up :p05:36
XisdibikI'm the type of person that filled up their AIM account back when it had limits05:36
zerojayGAN900: As someone that's used both for years, Skype sounds *MUCH* better than Gizmo and has less latency.05:39
zerojayThat said, I hate using it.05:39
GAN900zerojay, at the cost of your Freedom. *eg*05:39
XisdibikSkype in linux has alot of issues though05:39
Xisdibikso if your comparing skype linux to gizmo that could be why05:40
Xisdibikalot of my skyping is from the windows version05:40
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cehtehyou are here already06:14
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kimitakeI have a question for Bugtracker location07:43
kimitakeI just added XSBC-Bugtracker: to debian/control file and uploaded the package to auto builder07:44
kimitakepkg was built correctly but page still shows "Warning: This package does not have the required bugtracker link specified!"07:45
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kimitakeOK, I found the solution.08:01
kimitakeneed to locate it after Standards-Version: (before Package: )08:02
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timeless_mbp2Corsac: it's supposed to be the NSS list, however ownership is stolen by another group inside nokia, it's possible they doctor the list08:11
RST38hOh noooo, another media framework08:13
* RST38h can't stop facepalming lately08:14
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Corsactimeless_mbp2: mhh, ok08:49
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StskeepsDocScrutinizer: ping09:08
aspiditesStskeeps: pong?09:08
Stskeepsyou're not DS :P09:08
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Corsactimeless_mbp2: any idea where they are kept?09:09
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timeless_mbp2they're kept by 'maemosec-certman'09:10
Corsachmhm, there are multiple cert8.db ><09:11
timeless_mbp2they aren't kept by gecko09:12
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timeless_mbp2they're maintained by maemosec-certman09:12
timeless_mbp2at least, in general09:12
Corsacin .mozilla/{fennec,rtcom,nokia-maps,microb}, in .modest and .osso09:13
timeless_mbp2osso/tutorial presumably09:13
timeless_mbp2fennec is a gecko; nokia-maps, microb, tutorial are microb consumers09:14
Corsacexcept the microb and fennec ones, they are identical09:14
Corsacso I guess maemosec-certman copies them there09:14
timeless_mbp2that's not how it's supposed to work09:15
Corsac(I mean, when they are modified)09:15
timeless_mbp2iirc cert8 is basically your private add certs09:15
Corsacha yes maybe09:15
timeless_mbp2presumably you haven't added any to fennec09:15
timeless_mbp2so you're comparing a pair of empties09:15
Corsachow is called the CA file then?09:15
timeless_mbp2as i said, it's not stored in microb, it's managed by maemosec-certman09:16
timeless_mbp2and if you don't pay attention, i will slap you silly09:16
timeless_mbp2rtcom and modest use nss directly09:16
Corsacyeah but nss uses a cache anyway09:16
* tybollt hides :(09:17
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Corsacand it seems to use a different cache for every apps09:17
Corsac(like in the desktop though)09:17
timeless_mbp2not a cache...09:17
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Corsacwell, a private copy09:18
Corsacsince the original one comes directly from nss sources, afair09:18
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timeless_mbp2well, err, that's totally not how it works09:18
timeless_mbp2but you're free to think about it wrongly if you like :)09:18
CorsacI'm kind-of asking you how it works :)09:18
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timeless_mbp2nss sources include sources for a library that provides certificates09:19
timeless_mbp2your app can choose not to ship that library09:19
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timeless_mbp2or you can replace it later09:19
timeless_mbp2but as it's a library, it's readonly09:19
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timeless_mbp2so other changes are stored elsewhere09:19
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timeless_mbp2microb doesn't ship that library09:19
timeless_mbp2instead it talks to maemosec-certman09:19
timeless_mbp2which means you should *stop* asking me09:19
timeless_mbp2and start asking *it*09:19
timeless_mbp2is that unclear?09:20
timeless_mbp2i'm only responsible for gecko/upstream09:20
* tybollt hiding under desk now... :-(09:20
Corsactimeless_mbp2: ok, thanks09:20
* Corsac looks at tybollt 09:20
timeless_mbp2maemosec-certman is not an upstream component, which should be fairly obvious...09:20
Corsacmaemosec-certman-common-ca looks like a good candidate09:21
timeless_mbp2that's roughly the nss database repackaged :)09:21
timeless_mbp2plus whatever totally unapproved changes they may have made :/09:21
timeless_mbp2btw, what are you actually trying to do?09:21
timeless_mbp2certificates are managed in the control panel09:22
Corsactimeless_mbp2: get the original list of CA so I can open a bug asking for inclusion of the missing one(s)09:22
Corsactimeless_mbp2: I noticed some CA (which are in nss) weren't in certman09:22
Corsacso I had to add them09:22
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timeless_mbp2well, don't really do that09:25
timeless_mbp2just find the latest bug in bmo that updated the nss database09:25
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timeless_mbp2and file a bug in bugs.maemo asking them to update to match *that* update09:25
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timeless_mbp2why should you have to do the homework?09:25
timeless_mbp2the database was imported many months ago, and like most things is almost certainly not maintained09:25
timeless_mbp2anyway, the guy who owns maemosec-certman actually is responsive in bugs.maemo09:27
timeless_mbp2he's not a bad guy, he just has a sucky job09:27
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Corsactimeless_mbp2: seems that there are independant bugs in b.moz.o for each CA inclusion, so it might just be best to just ask for a sync to the latest version09:31
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timeless_mbp2isn't that what i said?09:32
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Corsacwell, you said to look for a bug in bmo, which won't exist09:33
timeless_mbp2since the file is atomic for a branch, and there are bugs which control all changes to the vcs09:33
timeless_mbp2there will be one bug which was the last bug to trigger an update to that file09:34
timeless_mbp2probably the best thing about maemo=>meego is that bmo will be less ambiguous, because bugs.maemo will become bmc :)09:34
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Corsacgrmbl, there's no maemosec product?09:40
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pupnik_"OMweather requires reboot"  what kind of evil crap is that?09:56
tybolltheh yeah I raised an eyebrow about that as well09:59
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swc|666"Please reboot to complete rootkit initialization" is the one that got me concerned10:00
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tybolltswc|666: ;)10:00
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swc|666imean srsly.. who really does code audits / QA for devel/testing type apps u know ;)10:01
swc|666especially for the poor fools on xda-devs10:01
tybolltbut seriously now, of course a weather application needs a kernel module to raise privs and to accept incoming connections on low ports and to delete random fileson your FS etc10:01
timeless_mbp2swc|666: isn't that your job? :)10:01
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swc|666</rant> ;)10:02
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lucentswc|666: oh the OMWeather messages ?10:02
lucentthat struck me as totally freaky weird.10:02
lucentit even comes up with a "You Must Check This Box to Agree"10:02
swc|666lucent, nono, i was just extrapolating mindlessly on the OMWeather issue10:02
lucentoh yeah10:03
swc|666in that ballpark*10:03
lucentI'm serious about my experience though, it asked me to confirm that I would swear on a bible to reboot after install10:03
lucentsomething like this10:03
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lucentwhat could it possibly need that requires a reboot?10:03
swc|666point being most if not 99.9% of smartphone users really don't take into consideration malware10:03
tybolltthe installer has the "Yeah, right." box for agreeing to install stuff... that's so utterly... ugh blasphemy :)10:04
swc|666and (i'm lazy) who wrote OMWeather btw?10:05
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tybollt"wrote"? it is updated like each and every day10:05
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pupnik_timeless_mbp2: is there a microb hack or config to open a link in a background window (not taking focus)?  That way i could keep reading while the new thing loads...10:23
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timeless_mbp2pupnik_: afaiu the window manager sucks10:24
timeless_mbp2i've recently triggered similar issues from a number of other apps10:25
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timeless_mbp2so at this point, i'm going to say that even if we bothered to try, the window manager would thwart us10:25
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pupnik_gotcha, thanks10:25
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* timeless_mbp2 tries to turn on an n90010:26
* swc|666 tries to buy an n100010:26
timeless_mbp2pupnik_: anyway, the public bug says that there's progress on something10:26
pupnik_most annoying in that department is app manager stealing focus from xterm / irssi after "application successfully installed".  i would prefer to only be notified if application was NOT successfully installed.10:27
timeless_mbp2that's nothing :)10:27
timeless_mbp2try using app manager's restore applications feature10:27
tybolltI don't agree w/ tat10:27
timeless_mbp2it bothers me many many many times10:27
timeless_mbp2i can't go out for coffee10:27
tybollttimeless_mbp2: it ha one?10:28
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timeless_mbp2tybollt: open backup, create a backup, only check 'application list' or whatever10:28
timeless_mbp2then restore that backup10:28
tybolltah ok10:28
timeless_mbp2then open application manager10:28
timeless_mbp2there's an extra menu for it10:28
timeless_mbp2s/menu/menu item/10:28
infobottimeless_mbp2 meant: there's an extra menu item for it10:28
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timeless_mbp2couldn't retrieve ip address from network. wep key may be wrong. select network?10:29
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timeless_mbp2tybollt: well, i don't think i'm using 'wep'10:30
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timeless_mbp2so "that message may be totally confused"10:30
timeless_mbp2the fact that it didn't tell me _which_ network it had issues w/ didn't help matters10:30
* timeless_mbp2 ponders10:31
timeless_mbp2Last sync ... Failed10:31
timeless_mbp2… Invalid Exchange Server host address10:31
timeless_mbp2in English: DNS lookup failed10:31
timeless_mbp2can someone please suggest a replacement for 'Invalid....' ?10:31
tybolltwhat is wrong with "DNS lookup failed"?10:32
timeless_mbp2tybollt: well10:33
tybollt"Couldn't resolve hostname"10:33
timeless_mbp2you're assuming someone configured a hostname10:33
tybollt"You're a user so I hate you!"10:33
timeless_mbp2it's possible i wrote ''10:33
timeless_mbp2instead of ''10:33
tybollt(granted the last one is probably lesser appropriate?)10:33
timeless_mbp2i'll have to check to see if that triggers this error10:33
pyhimysCannot connect to '';10:33
timeless_mbp2the problem is that as a user...10:33
* timeless_mbp2 rummages around trying to find a 'user' hat 10:34
tybollttimless: "Couldn't resolve hostname"10:34
* timeless_mbp2 is sure there's one somewhere10:34
timeless_mbp2… as a user … i don't know what other errors are available10:34
marmoutetimeless_mbp2: one the head of you voodoo dolls maybe ?10:35
timeless_mbp2tybollt: i think 'Couldn't find Exchange Server' might work10:35
timeless_mbp2marmoute: probably buried in someone else's closet10:35
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tybollttimeless_mbp2: fair enough, me likey10:35
* timeless_mbp2 cries10:37
timeless_mbp2my .ssh directory isn't here10:37
* timeless_mbp2 wonders where it is10:37
swc|666exchange ftfl10:38
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* timeless_mbp2 tries to figure out what the heck a syncing status of 'Stopped' means10:41
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timeless_mbp2afaict this message is reserved for cases where dns lookups fail10:42
* johnx wants to stab malware writers ...10:43
* swc|666 wants to stab facebook users10:43
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johnxin terms of negative social impact on the internet, I think virus writers still win ;)10:45
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lucent"old school" virus writers tended to their own clique10:47
lucentit was anti-social but it wasn't loner stuff10:47
crashanddieMalware makes you visit websites, discover online-communities to erradicate the issue10:48
crashanddieNobody gets together to show off their spam10:48
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johnxI'm thinking more the effect it has that casual internet users can never know what to trust10:48
crashanddieThere are no spam-boards, where spammers give each other tips and tricks10:48
johnxcrashanddie, spamusement.com10:48
lucentare you trolling?10:48
auenfsome malware also claims to be virus/spyware scanners that find loads of crap to try and get money out of you10:48
crashanddielucent: who are you asking?10:49
tybolltthere are however plenty enough of corporate interest to backup spam10:49
lucentspam creators have their own exclusive club of message boards for techniques10:49
johnxauenf, and that's exactly what I spent the last couple hours digging off my dad's computer ...10:49
lucentit's the opposite of what you said now10:49
auenfjohnx, malwarebytes is your friend10:49
auenfas is the bleepingcomputer site10:49
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auenfjohnx, which name did it go by this time?10:50
johnxauenf, the thing actually hooked into the windows .exe loader, preventing malwarebytes from loading10:50
crashanddielucent: oh really? Never came across one. However often came across "virus author" boards (well, more sk than anything else, come to think of it)10:50
crashanddielucent: my bad then10:50
auenfsome of them are full of typo's ;)10:50
johnxauenf, it's the new(ish) "antivirus 2010 XP"10:50
crashanddielucent: I would never have thought that spammers (who inherently are trying to sell crap, thus don't like competition) would exchange tips and provide how-tos10:51
auenfjohnx, yea, blocks exe's and similar from loading (not .com) and a proxy so if you surf anywhere, you goto the 'scanners' results only10:51
lucentcrashanddie: there's only illegal and grey-market attempts at monetizing (what I refer to as "old school") virus writing plans10:51
lucentcrashanddie: there's implicitly legal (Thanks CAN-SPAM act!) efforts to make a buck off spam10:51
lucentI mean, follow the money is what I'm saying here.10:51
johnxauenf, yeah, and I'll be the first to admit, dealing with windows viruses and malware is not my specialty10:51
johnxin this case, was my friend :D10:51
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tybolltit is a long standing known fact that virus writers are being financed by the anti-viiri companies10:52
edheldilis it?10:52
lucenttybollt: I've seen proof of this too10:52
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auenfanyway, time for me to go out...10:53
tybolltlucent: not surprising10:53
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johnxI wouldn't totally discount it, but I have a feeling it's through a million layers of abstraction (aka money laundering)10:53
johnx'later auenf10:53
tybolltjohnx: of course10:53
edheldillucent:  any verifiable sources for that claim? And I am not speaking about some chinese AV shops10:53
lucentvirus writer groups back-in-the-day where 3 of the dozen core writers end up in jail, one or two suddenly have indemity and new jobs at security firms that suddenly acquire anti-virus programming shops10:53
tybolltjohnx: also number accounts in switzerland10:53
johnxI long for the mid-90's when viruses were 1) pranks or 2) movie plots10:54
lucentedheldil: I've heard about this from some folks I know personally that used to be in the "scene", that's not exactly verifiable info though10:54
lucentedheldil: I've also seen articles in print which I don't have the motivation to go find for you, but I think they're not difficult to find if you are that curious10:55
edheldilI think that, human personality being what it is, there's enough coders writing virii for free10:55
tybolltlaunching these theories makes people call you "tinfoil-hat"10:55
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Shrik3botnets are the way virus writers earn nowadays10:56
lucentthe overwhelming majority (in my observation and friendship with said folks) is that virus writers do it for a psychological need to be a more clever bastard than anyone has ever been before them.10:56
Shrik3very few viruses are satisfied with an ambulance running across the screen like in the old days10:56
Shrik3you need to build a botnet and start selling it for ddos attacks and spamming10:57
lucent...and they accomplish that without ever releasing their virus to the wild, for the most part.10:57
lucentthe botnet concept has really changed the scene10:57
edheldillucent:  I doubt that. That would not give the satisfaction that it REally Works (tm)10:57
lucentedheldil: doesn't have to work, just needs to be more clever than anything else out there.10:58
edheldilbotnets are different thing, of course :)10:58
tybolltit's not really10:58
tybolltit's all based on how easily exploitable windows is10:58
lucentbotnet brought corporate interest10:58
edheldilthey are real weapons of mass destruction10:59
johnxtybollt, nah, more based on how easily exploitable humans are10:59
lucenttybollt: if I may counter-point, I'm in the camp of thinking as johnx says, windows is !@#$ irrelevent11:00
tybolltI agree entirely11:00
lucentin fact I look at windows as a hinderance on the spread of effective malware11:00
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edheldillucent:  nah, they are a nice monoculture waiting to be swept with one bug.11:01
lucentno objections there ;)11:01
edheldilenhanced with the admin privs most users have11:01
johnxthough really those aren't necessary11:02
edheldilno, but help to hide the malware in computer11:02
johnxthe most common one I've seen lately is the "fake AV" deal, where all it needs to do is social engineer you into giving away your credit card. no admin privileges needed there11:02
johnxso it runs a systray applet and writes to HKEY_CURRENT_USER to put a hook in preventing .exe's it doesn't like from running11:03
edheldilthey also install keyloggers etc., though11:03
johnxpretty sure that part of the registry doesn't need admin privileges... (though I'm honestly [blessedly] not an expert on Windows)11:04
edheldilis not it what normal AVs do as well? :-)11:04
johnxheh. true enough11:04
lucentjohnx: I used to write from Win32 API calls and stuff, which bafflingly are callable from within Microsoft Excel's macro editor...11:05
johnxthe thing that depresses me is that the most innocent and trusting people are the ones who need to become paranoid and constantly doubt themselves11:05
lucentjohnx: write NOPs to the password check routine insta-admin11:05
lucentfrom visual basic script!11:05
johnxI wouldn't be surprised if my dad had gotten this from a document sent to him by a colleague11:06
lucentI mean you can do anything. It's just like any OS out there, even Linux11:06
lucentor Maemo11:06
johnxand I really don't see any good solutions ...11:07
lucentWINE is an interesting approach11:07
lucentthough I've seen devs joke about virus compatibility as a goal11:07
johnxto getting windows viruses working on linux? :P11:07
lucentyah it is only a joke that WINE will eventually be complete enough that the problem of malware will need to be addressed11:08
edheldilyou are aware that windows apps running under linux can execute linux syscalls, right?11:08
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lucentedheldil: sure11:10
marmouteedheldil: with priviliedge ?11:10
edheldilwith the privileges the wine is running11:11
lucentthe focus of the jest is on common made-for-windows native malware11:11
johnxsooo, what's the answer here? how do we fix the world without taking the iphone approach?11:11
lucentuntil made-for-WINE malware becomes commonplace, ...11:11
lucentjohnx: sign the jesus out of everything with crypto11:12
johnxlucent, how does the end-user know who to trust?11:12
edheldiland I have heard about some "spam-everybody-in-addressbook" malware accidentally executed under wine years ago11:12
lucentand publicly shame people when they suck and make mistakes11:12
lucentjohnx: tribunals!  and executions11:12
johnxthe end users or the virus writers?11:12
edheldilnuclear weapons ;-)11:13
lucentI recommend 3 days in the stocks for forwarding email including my address admidst hundreds of others in the CC field11:13
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lucentalong with a twice-daily recietal of the origin of Blind Carbon Copy and its uses11:13
lcuki would rather not get junk mail like that ;)11:14
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johnxso yeah, no good answers, huh?11:15
johnxc'mon, where are my simple answers to complex questions? :D11:15
nid0whats even worse is when dumbasses on that cc list start using reply-to-all for their inane discussions about the inane original email11:15
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lucentjohnx: you suppose I am joking about the executions...11:15
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johnxlucent, I don't think that really solves my complaint about "malware makes innocent/trusting users into paranoids"11:16
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lucentjohnx: malware is based on demand, believe it or not malware exists because the public at large believes it exists and expects it11:17
lucentthe existance of crap that gets in your way has become a "norm" for the average user that must grudgingly interact with their many hundred dollar machine11:18
johnxI'd like to politely disagree11:18
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lucentif it works perfectly then they will find flaws that don't exist.11:18
lucentI've seen this in action. What's your counter-point?11:18
johnxonly empirical evidence11:18
ssvbtybollt: having worked for an antivirus company, I must say that there is an overwhelming amount of viruses and malware done by bad guys already so that it makes no sense to 'finance' or 'encourage' those bad guys even theoretically11:19
edheldilmalware exists because there is incentive in writing it. More now when the incentive is financial11:19
johnxI admit, I've met some very "needy" users, who are never happy11:19
lucentssvb: only if the malware disables your competitor's product from operation ?11:19
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johnxbut I don't think anyone wants this kind of uncertainty in their day-to-day computing experience11:19
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lucentjohnx: loosely, I've held 30-40 clients in my past experience as a small business and home user computer technician11:20
lucentnot for any major firm like Geek Squad, this is me and my friends who are in business together11:21
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johnxand your clients asked how they could ensure a constant supply of malware?11:22
lucentat least HALF (definitely more but I don't have an exact figure) expect that interaction with a computer will lead to some kind of failure that impedes their work flow, and they fail to mention it because "everyone has this kind of problem, right?  virus?"11:22
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MOUDHey all11:23
johnxthat's a problem of expectations11:23
johnxhey MOUD11:23
nid0in fairness half of the "finding flaws that dont exist" (probably way more than half, in fact) is simply down to "i dont know how to use this properly so will assume it's broken" which is better than admitting their own limitations.11:23
ssvblucent: this also does not stand ground, malware writers try to disable all the popular antiviruses in one way or another without discriminating anyone :)11:23
lucentssvb: :)11:23
johnxlucent, people used to expect that cars would break down on a regular basis. heck, people used to be ok with taking months of enduring scurvy to cross the pacific11:23
MOUDI never used Voice SMS, is it possible on N900? If so, how do I do it?11:23
edheldilnid0:  if the user interface is unintuitive, you could argue it IS broken :)11:24
lucentMOUD: not familiar with voice SMS11:24
MOUDhello johnx11:24
nid0pebkac isnt limited to unintuitive interfaces11:24
johnxMOUD, is that like sending some kind of voice recording?11:24
MOUDlucent: no problem, maybe someone else is :)11:24
lucentMOUD: is that multi-media SMS with sound?11:24
MOUDjohnx,. lucent: I think so11:24
nid0people send messages these days with voice recordings?11:25
johnxthen the answer is "probably it's not supported officially right now" on the N90011:25
nid0.....kind of like a phone call but slower?11:26
MOUDnid0: It can be sent from mobile to mobile, or email, or landline11:27
lucentnid0: that is similar to my reaction11:27
nid0well other than the "to email" bit, you know you can make phone calls from mobile to mobile, or landline, right?11:27
_|Nix|_timeless_mbp2: You around?11:28
lucentif the content of your Voice SMS is going to be "DELIVER THE MONEY OR THE _____ DIES"11:28
lucentI might suggest other methods.11:28
MOUDHere's a definition for voice sms (from a website):11:28
MOUDVoice SMS is, simply put, the ability to leave a voice message for someone without11:28
MOUDringing their handset. It’s similar to SMS and MMS in that it involves one-way11:28
MOUDcommunication. It’s similar to voicemail in that a voice message is sent for someone11:28
MOUDto hear when they want to access it, but it’s different in that it’s an intentional voice11:28
MOUDsorry, didn't mean to.11:28
RST38hHehe, someone else is finally getting the idea:
RST38hA catharsis of sorts=)11:29
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nid0well, if thats what you want to do as a workaround you could always record your clip and email it to the recipient11:29
johnxMOUD, they're just giving you a hard time. The answer is that a 3rd party app called fmms is probably the closest thing we have. It's the only way to send MMS at all right now.11:29
nid0or install fmms and use that, but it's in devel11:29
MOUDI heard that fmms can only send images but I'll give a try11:30
RST38hmoo johnx11:30
johnxm00f RST38h11:30
johnxinteresting article. saw it on planet but skipped it over11:30
* johnx reads11:30
zaheermIf you’re an Android dev and you have an app in the Market with at least 3.5 stars across 5,000 downloads, Google will soon be sending out a new phone as part of its “Device Seeding Program.”11:30
MOUDnid0: I want to try from my mobile to a landline11:31
lucentMOUD: similar function can be had by using Google Voice linked to your mobile number11:31
nid0there are landlines that can receive mms's?11:31
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nid0my landline phone can send/receive texts, but I wouldnt have thought any would be complex enough to process mms's..11:31
RST38hjohnx: This stuff has been known since Handango times11:31
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johnxah, the palm days :)11:32
MOUDlucent: yes, I just read that while googling. I'll try later with a friend of mine, both of us have n90011:32
RST38hjohnx: So, not sure why so many people bought into all the hype, for so long11:32
johnxRST38h, all that's old is new again :)11:32
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lucentMOUD: wish I could comment by experience - my mobile 'net connection is only 2.5G (EDGE)11:32
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lucentno 3G for Jackson WY11:32
lucentiPod users love to brag about their 3G with AT&T11:33
tybolltipod now has a 3G radio???11:33
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lucentwhatever it's called, iPhone11:34
MOUDlucent: no problem. I also heard that Voice SMS is somewhat cheaper than MMS (depending where you live) so I wanted to give a try.11:34
johnxtybollt, yup. they call it the "iphone" but it'll never take off. trust me11:34
lucentI suffer from that use of the first big concept to label all concepts thereafter11:34
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johnxthen you should be calling it the MPman :D11:35
tybolltjohnx: then surely you ought to be calling it "the newton" :)11:37
johnxor windows for pen computers? :)11:39
infobotjohnx meant: or windows for pen computing? :)11:40
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tybolltdoes the n900 support RNDIS?11:48
mgedminwhat's that?11:49
Stskeepsyes, g_ether11:49
* mgedmin idly remarks that g_ether.ko doesn't exist on a N900, but g_nokia.ko provides USB network connectivity11:50
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wazd_e63Heya maemo12:12
alteregoIS there a linux desktop way of installing maps to the map cache?12:13
Stskeepsjaffa had a guide?12:14
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Stskeepslo wazd_e6312:14
alteregoI'll havea look.12:14
alteregoAh, perfect, thanks Stskeeps  :)12:15
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KhertanVectorMine 1.0.5 is waiting yout12:21
Khertanyour vote in extras-testing12:21
alteregoWhat does it do? :P12:21
pupnik_fun asteroids style game12:22
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Khertanalterego_ : it s a clone of MineStorm for Vet12:23
Khertanalterego_ : it s a clone of MineStorm for Vectrex12:23
m33gohi people i need a help. i want to create a *.sh tah run this command line ""root12:23
pupnik_Khertan: what did you change?12:23
Khertanfix icon bug12:23
Khertanadd sound off option12:24
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Khertanand reduce sound of thruster12:24
m33gohi people i need a help. i want to create a *.sh tah run this command line >> root cd /media/mmc1/ export http_proxy= wget -c -r link12:24
lucentvector monitor game emulations never look quite like they should on LCD12:24
m33gocan you help me?12:24
* lucent notes that's an opinion only12:24
Khertanlucent : yep of course ... but VectorMine have color :) no need to put sticker on your n900 screen12:25
pupnik_the high dpi on N900 makes it very close.  you want brighter corners for overlap "d flickering?12:25
m33gocan you help me???? thanks12:25
Khertanlucent : yep i haven t add flickering option too12:26
m33gohi people i need a help. i want to create a *.sh tah run this command line >> root cd /media/mmc1/ export http_proxy= wget -c -r link12:26
pupnik_m33go: why use root?12:26
m33goroot? its the same without it12:27
m33gobut i need a sh script12:27
pupnik_i havent used wget with http proxy, but just make the script executeable and take $1 or $@ for cmdline param12:30
m33gomake an example i dont know nothing bout sh12:31
lindi-wget -r as root sounds scary :)12:31
lucentI found this video helpful to explain what MineStorm is
lindi- is an old proof-of-concept against wget -r12:32
m33gopeople.... i just want to create a script that works like this cd /media/mmc1/ export http_proxy= #insert a valid proxy format PROXY:PORT and press enter12:34
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m33gopeople.... i just want to create a script that works like this cd /media/mmc1/ export http_proxy= #insert a valid proxy format PROXY:PORT and press enter... wget -c -r #insert a valid url link and press enter... no more12:35
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pupnik_wasnt there a way to specify detination dir with wget -o /media/mmcq/bla ?12:35
cehtehwhats the problem?12:35
m33gothe problem is that i dont know sh script12:35
pupnik_i think you want to look at && to seperate multiple commands m33go12:35
pupnik_cd /foo && do_something12:36
m33goi dont know nothing about sh scripts12:36
pupnik_i dont know enough to give an error free line12:37
m33gocan u help me to create  a sh file?12:37
villagersh script is easy... you already know the commands you want to run (cd, export, wget), put them into a file, voila, you got a sh script12:37
m33govillager.... it doesnt work12:38
m33goi did it12:38
villagerdid you make it executable?12:38
m33goi made it like .sh12:38
villageractually executable might not work without the shebang... alternatively, you can start it by typing "sh"12:38
pupnik_chmod u+x script.sh12:38
m33gowhen i digit ./ it makes errors12:38
m33goumm ok12:39
m33goi'll try again12:39
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pupnik_and seperate commands with newlines or &&12:39
villager"sh ./" perhaps12:39
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m33gowhat can i use to make understand to choose a dir or not?12:40
m33goa command line like if.... or.... then...12:40
villagerthere's one, but you probably need to login to a real linux to see the docs12:41
pupnik_bleh. off 2 hospital - ttyl12:41
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m33goexample.... #press 1 to download on MMC press 2 to downllad on MyDocs press 3 to make it custom...12:42
m33gohow can i make a command line like that?12:42
villagerthat is more advanced shell programming I guess12:42
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villagerit can be done but you have to learn a bunch of commands and how to use them together12:43
m33gomy god.....12:43
m33gotoo hard to study?12:43
villagernot really, but you might spend a few hours on it12:44
villagerif you're a total newbie12:44
m33go:) thanks a lot i'm a new new newbie12:44
m33govery new hahahaha :D12:44
villageryou might want to find examples12:45
m33gobut i'm scary about variables12:45
m33goit's too hard12:45
m33goi hate variables my god12:46
villageryou probably won't be able to do it without variables12:46
villagervariables aren't that hard anyway12:46
villagerthey're convenient12:47
m33goi know. but i dont know how to calculate a range of bytes to allocate on it12:48
villagerthe user's response would probably go into a variable, then your if or case statements would check that variable12:48
m33gothis is too hard for me.12:48
villagerthis isn't C... you don't need to allocate a range of bytes for variables in sh12:48
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m33gothank u soo much12:51
m33gohave a nice day people12:51
m33gothanks for helping me12:51
tank-mancheck out perl after bash :)12:52
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corecodeanybody have a trick to switch IM accounts to "away" after some time?13:10
MiXu-That would be nice.13:11
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MiXu-Or on second thought... You're always carrying the N900 around anyway, right?13:12
MiXu-So technically you're not away :)13:12
corecodeat night i am away13:12
MiXu-Oooh, I misnunderstood you then13:13
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MiXu-I thought you meant a timeout13:13
corecodeyea, something13:14
corecodei dunno13:14
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corecodemaybe also a combination13:14
ptlstratagus post was removed from
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cehtehcorecode: i had some idea about a daemon which does intelligent profile switching and xorAxAx started implementing it ... dwimd13:17
cehtehcheck it out, it basically works iirc, had no time try yet13:17
Khertan <--- still require your vote !13:17
xorAxAxthe environment sensing gestalt optimizer13:17
xorAxAxits in extras-devel, corecode13:17
cehtehhi xorAxAx13:17
xorAxAxhi cehteh13:18
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corecodewhat is vectormine?13:19
corecodewhat's up with people and games13:20
cehtehyeah .. i want serious apps13:20
cehtehwell .. emacs works :P13:20
corecodeapp manager doesn't show down-pinned apps?13:21
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cehtehinstead my todays hack is tagged dangerous, not useful -- pfft n00bs13:21
corecodewhich hack13:22
SpeedEviltodays hack?13:22
corecodeand where do you publish them13:22
corecodeand now, dwimd?13:23
corecodehow do i use it13:23
corecodethere is no man command13:23
cehtehi admit its really a hack, but works13:23
SpeedEvilAnyone used the debian chroot thingy?13:24
SpeedEvilhow do I get keyb working in lxde13:24
HoxzerI guews the eternal loop isn't very good for battery13:25
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SpeedEvilIt only loops once per dbus event13:25
corecodeonce per captured event13:25
corecodeoh course dbus will itself process many events13:25
corecodexorAxAx: any docs available?13:26
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xorAxAxcorecode: yes, the README file13:26
xorAxAxcorecode: which is under /etc/dwimd13:26
SpeedEvilcehteh: I'd like a noise.13:26
SpeedEvilcehteh: an earth-shattering kaboom by preference.13:27
xorAxAxalternatively, you can read it here:
SpeedEvilcehteh: but a plaintive beep would work too13:27
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SpeedEvilAnd yes, I could trivially add that.13:27
cehtehSpeedEvil: i dont understand why there is no difference between annoying systems sounds and important things13:27
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cehtehSpeedEvil: it beeps when you turn system sounds on13:27
cehtehin profile13:27
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cehtehbit then it makes swooosh, wiiimp, brrrrzz, ggrlgl ... and such noises too13:28
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cehtehi hate that13:28
corecodexorAxAx: do you also have a problem that the wifi doesn't automatically switch to eduroam?13:31
xorAxAxcorecode: yes13:31
xorAxAxcorecode: also it cannot switch because it needs a cert passphrase13:32
xorAxAxbut if i remove the passphrase, the cert is invalid13:32
corecodei don't need that here13:32
xorAxAx(in my case)13:32
xorAxAxyeah, i like that rule :-)13:32
corecodethanks, that's a clever thing13:32
xorAxAxpresentation mode13:32
MiXu-Hmm. Is there a way to change internet connectivity on N900 to sort of "on demand, but disable when no traffic"?13:32
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corecodewhy would you vote for silent at uni?13:33
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MiXu-So that it would connect automatically to check email, and whatnot, but would turn internet connection off afterwards.13:33
corecodeis there access to the proximity sensor?13:33
xorAxAxcorecode: because there are lectures and meetings running13:33
DocScrutinizerMiXu-: There's no such thing like "on demand"13:33
xorAxAxcorecode: i havent written a proximity sensor yet, no. but feel free :)13:33
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MiXu-DocScrutinizer: Hmm. That's a bit disappointing, since symbian phones can do it.13:33
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corecodevibration obviously only makes sense in the pocket13:34
MiXu-And it has a significant effect on the battery life13:34
DocScrutinizerMiXu-: please read chan logs. We had that very topic 2 days ago (or 3)13:34
SpeedEvilthere is something in extras I think to turn that off13:34
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MiXu-DocScrutinizer: Ok, thanks13:34
corecodexorAxAx: you should package the sample config13:34
corecodexorAxAx: seems you're not using gps for location sensing13:35
DocScrutinizerMiXu-: bottom line: Even when we'd implement such nonsense, it had no effect whatsoever on battery life13:35
xorAxAxthe code supports gps but it needs too much energy, corecode13:35
corecodethat was my concern13:35
corecodeis it possible to use cell information only?13:35
xorAxAxyes, if you modify the code13:35
corecodexorAxAx: how do you hack on the code?13:36
xorAxAxif you want to use dwimd, i suggest a hg clone13:36
corecodewill do, just what's the most efficient process13:36
corecodehack on desktop, build package, load on phone?13:36
corecodessh into phone, hack on phone?13:37
xorAxAxhack on the desktop, commit push13:37
xorAxAxor hack on the phone, commit push13:37
xorAxAxor hack on the desktop, scp file13:37
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MiXu-DocScrutinizer: Active vs. inactive packet data has around 1mA difference if I recall right.13:38
cehtehsshfs even easier13:38
cehtehi mount the build dir of the sdk on the phone and then can try things directly13:38
xorAxAxyeah, that works as well13:39
cehtehthere is also sbsh   scratchboxshell, but i dont care sshfs is much easier13:39
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: that depends.13:39
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: with some cell networks and use-cases - the phone can be recamping quite often13:40
corecodecould you guys who worked with that already maybe document it in rough terms in the wiki?13:40
DocScrutinizerMiXu-: If you're talking about GPRS - you'll need to run a full DHCP registering for each time you crank up the "connectivity". So even if that 1mA figure is correct, it won't buy you anything, as the increased data traffic for DHCP will eat up all the savings13:40
cehtehno .. i work in my self-cooked way, bit raw like a good steak13:40
corecodexorAxAx: auto-secure device could be nice too13:41
corecodecehteh: that's good13:41
MiXu-DocScrutinizer: Ok, that's a good point. I can accept that. :)13:41
cehtehi also plan to setup a chroot with the sdk on the device13:41
corecodecehteh: any best practice is good to know13:41
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: recamping only accounts for GPRS if you do not keep any normal GSM connectivity during that13:41
xorAxAxcorecode: yeah, based on location for example13:41
xorAxAxcorecode: come to #dwimd if you are interested13:41
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: maybe - it seems to recamp for me lots more often with an idle GPRS connection.13:42
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: or maybe I'm measuring wrong13:42
MiXu-So actually what would be needed is a change in the protocols :)13:42
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MiXu-Or static IP:s for mobile devices, or something.13:42
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cehtehhehe we all want our own v6 ip on the n900 right? right!13:45
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cehtehping -f when on vacation .. that will be fun13:46
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SpeedEvilstatic IP, combined with some sort of cryptokey would be good13:47
SpeedEvilSo the router only accepted signed packets13:47
cehtehi got my openvpn very well working now13:47
cehtehto home currently .. but considering to put another node my server as gateway13:47
cehtehthat would allow such stunts13:47
SpeedEvilcehteh: yeah - that works too.13:48
SpeedEvilBut the option to only allow signed packets would be lovely.13:48
cehtehthats ipsec :)13:48
SpeedEvilAnd solve completely DDOS issues13:48
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cehtehbit pita to setup isnt it13:49
cehtehnah it wont13:49
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SpeedEvilwell - to the extent that the routers knowing your public key can drop packets mis-signed13:49
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cehtehvalidating signatures costs, getting signatures would be all to simple13:49
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cehtehrouters cant handle that13:49
SpeedEvilThey should.13:49
SpeedEvilAnd yes, I know there is probably no standard to do this.13:50
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* cehteh would like some RST packet alike which is respected already by routers voluntary13:50
cehtehwhen i say "i dont want packets from X" in a ack packet which goes the route back, every router on that way should drop that route (make a negative entry for some time)13:51
SpeedEvilthat would sort-of help in some cases yes.13:52
SpeedEvilnot ddos though13:52
cehtehneeds to be spoof-proof of course13:52
SpeedEvilwell - not the worst ddos13:52
SpeedEvilthere was someone over on ##linux a while back getting ddos'd by a quarter of a million hosts13:52
SpeedEvilsending a http connection request every hour or so13:53
cehtehin theory even for massive ddos, with the objective to reduce the ddos considerably13:53
SpeedEvilyeah - but you can't have long banlists13:53
cehtehif you can do that then ddosing becomes less interesting too and may die out13:53
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cehtehyeah this should be voluntary routers only accept it as long they have resouces13:54
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cehtehbut since everyone suffers from ddos even the backbone providers already which are not primary target it might be appealing13:54
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cehtehbut there is no such technology yet and i am sure there are a lot things i didnt thought of13:55
SpeedEvilpacket signing would approach it from the other side.13:55
edheldillike recognizing legitimate and ddos traffic. If you just filter out, you create ddos on yourself13:56
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cehtehpacket signing will only work when you know your communication partner or some trusted authority which issues certificates13:57
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cehtehlook at the crap ssl usability and what it costs to get certs and how many authorities you never heard of are preinstalled in your browser13:58
cehtehand how much usefule (cacert) are not there yet13:58
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cehtehit will make private/community/peer2peer communiation much harder13:58
cehtehnot everyone wants to buy a certificate and is then left behind13:59
SpeedEvilIn principle p2p could be done by you passing a key along with the search request13:59
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cehtehand anonymity networks will also suffer13:59
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cehtehimo that opens a can of worms13:59
edheldilsince ddos botnets use zombie comps, packet signing would not help you much14:00
SpeedEvilyou're already passing the IP with the search request14:00
SpeedEviledheldil: sure it will.14:00
SpeedEviledheldil: it means that a random packet sent to your IP doesn't get tehre14:00
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edheldilthat would require that everybody and everything uses certs14:01
edheldiland as soon as you can get to some device, you can send out worm disabling the cert check (unless TPM)14:03
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jo-erlendI have a widget on my n900, called Conversations. It displays an envelope with 5 (8) and a "speech bouble" with 1 (49). What do these mean? I've opened sms inbox and email inbox and I can't find any unread messages.14:05
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CervajzHi guys14:06
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Cervajz Is it possible to repair .tmp_video.mp4 file? My N900 switched off during recording and I would like get a part of the record at least.  Thank you14:09
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SpeedEvilCervajz: Does mplayer play it?14:11
CervajzSpeedEvil: I dont't test it, because I am on Windows workstation right now. I will try it at home. But VLC doesn't.14:12
asj__there's mplayer for windows14:12
Funnyfacewhy did it just turn off? out of battery or some other issue?14:12
SpeedEvilCervajz: is the file the right size?14:12
CervajzFunnyface: Yes, out of battery14:12
SpeedEvilCervajz: how large is it?14:12
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CervajzSpeedEvil: It has 250 MB, I think it is ok14:12
SpeedEvilCervajz: also - file a bug.14:12
Cervajzproper size14:12
SpeedEvilCervajz: you should not be left with a broken recording if it went down 'cleanly'14:13
infobotwell, bug is n: A son of a glitch. An error in design or programming in hardware or software. Effects range from cosmetic errors to system crash and loss of data. See also Feature.14:13
SpeedEvilI've no idea what that is14:13
SpeedEvilI meant14:14
nid0first one indicates you're a monty python fan.14:14
SpeedEvilAh. It was in another channel. I was suggesting  a punishment for female pickpockets. After someone commented that you can't just punch them coz they're girls.14:15
CervajzLet me check mplayer in windows14:15
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t_s_ook, why is maemo planet recycling 2 year old blogs?14:17
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CervajzSo, mplayer doesn't replay this file :(14:20
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SpeedEvilOk - does mplayer -forceindex do anything?14:21
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mmarc__hi, what do we have apout grep, looks like it is installed already, but when trying apt-get install grep, it wannts to remove numerous package. With existing /bin/grep the source configure issue is "checking for grep that handles long lines and -e... configure: error: no acceptable grep could be found in /bin:/usr/xpg4/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/xpg4/bin" - have you seen this?14:22
CervajzSpeedEvil: Unknown parameter14:22
X-FadeSpeedEvil: Doesn't that read the entire file first?14:24
SpeedEvilmmarc__: there is gnu-grep in the repos.14:24
SpeedEvilX-Fade: yes14:24
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mmarc__SpeedEvil: I've seen grep-gnu, but what repository is it from?14:25
SpeedEvilIt's in extras-testing at teh moment I think14:25
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CervajzSpeedEvil: Same error like "pastebin"14:26
SpeedEvilCervajz: is this a video you can easily share, or private?14:26
mmarc__SpeedEvil: repository url is ?14:26
SpeedEvilPeople over on #mplayer may have more clues14:26
SpeedEvilmmarc__: don't recall ATM14:27
mmarc__pard me?14:27
lcukCervajz, copy file to desktop and diagnose from there.  it is seemingly corrupt14:27
SpeedEvilmmarc__: I don't think it's in extras - maybe extras-devel - or extras-testing14:27
X-Fademmarc__: The grep you are using probably comes from busybox.14:27
CervajzSpeedEvil: I can share it :) It is form concert of Imogen Heap14:27
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mmarc__yup, looks so14:27
SpeedEvilCervajz: I would also see if the same happens when you truncate a good file14:27
SpeedEvilCervajz: people from #mplayer may or may not have a clue14:28
lcukon desktop check if file is filled with 0's14:28
SpeedEvilthat too14:28
lcukSpeedEvil, this isnt mplayer fault14:28
SpeedEvillcuk: I'm not saying it is14:28
lcukafaik its a corrupt video Cervajz is trying to use14:28
SpeedEvillcuk: I'm saying they may have a clue on rescuing corrupt videos.14:28
SpeedEvilFor example - sometimes you can recover streams by prepending or appending bits from files with similar encodings.14:29
CervajzIt is not filled by 0 (in hexa view)14:29
SpeedEvilThere are several possibilities.14:29
SpeedEvilmplayer/the viewer cannot play the file without the trailer or header filled in as the recorder would normally do at the end of recording.14:30
nid0heh good old microsoft14:30
SpeedEvilThe file data has not been properly allocated, and the data you are seeing in the file isn't 'real' data - just garbage off teh disk.14:30
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nid0win7 rc1 auto shutdowns as of this month can be fooled by such complexity as winding the system's date back.14:30
SpeedEvilActually - that's only two14:31
CervajzSpeedEvil: I think, that the right one is first one14:31
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SpeedEvilI'd try first truncating the file.14:32
SpeedEvilA known good file that is14:32
SpeedEvilthen running battery out again14:32
SpeedEviland see if you get the same reaction14:32
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Chikudoes gmail talk work for you?14:38
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CervajzSpeedEvil: Okay, I'll do some experiments at home.14:38
CervajzThank you14:38
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SpeedEvilgood luck14:39
SpeedEvilBut submit a bug14:39
SpeedEvilif the shutdown was clean - that's a bug - as the video recorder should have finished off the file.14:39
SpeedEvilIf the shutdown was not clean - that's also a bug - as it should have shutdown cleanly14:40
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JaffaMorning, all14:43
* Jaffa wonders if sjgadsby will accept jeremiah's nomination.14:45
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dazoAnyone seen this one? .... "Apple's patent attack"14:48
derfYou shouldn't repost subscriber links in a public forum. They're meant for sharing with individuals.14:49
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dazoderf:  ahh ... didn't know14:49
dazoderf:  thx for the info!14:50
Shrik3red: greenpeace counts promises to do better in the score14:51
Shrik3which is bullshit14:51
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SpeedEvilAnd the toxic content of stuff is largely irrelevant in many cases.14:53
SpeedEvilIf you employ a worker making mobile phones.14:53
SpeedEvilYou have to count a portion of whole emissions of that worker against the phones.14:53
SpeedEvilFrom the fertiliser used for their food, to their holiday on a plane.14:54
nid0tbh the whole apple filing is as much bullshit as almost every other software patent spat14:54
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FunnyfaceSpeedEvil: :P14:56
Shrik3that's just basic american patent procedure14:56
Shrik3they dig out every single obvious patent they have and throw them at the opponent14:56
Shrik3and see what sticks14:56
Shrik3then the opponent does the same14:56
Shrik3lawyers get rich, nothing really happens14:56
Lumpio-This is why we should forget about America14:57
tybolltthere's always a settlement out of court in the end14:57
Lumpio-Move development to a more civilized country14:57
tybolltif however one of the parties haven't gone bancrupt by thern14:57
SpeedEvilFunnyface: err - what?14:57
Funnyfacejust some silly thread I found :P14:57
Shrik3there really haven't been that many high profile patent losses14:58
Funnyfacethought maybe you'd like it as you have knowledge in both subjects.. :P14:58
Shrik3sony's vibration patent is the only one that comes to my mind14:58
tybolltsony owns the dildo patent? :)14:59
Funnyfaceoh and err I am in the wrong channel too..14:59
SpeedEvilsolar charget 100mm*50mm will in desert sun - intercept about 7.5W of sunlight. About 15% best-case of that can be converted into electricity. So about 1W14:59
Shrik3ps3 didn't have dualshock at first because, according to sony, "it didn't fit in the controller with sixaxis detection"14:59
Shrik3the real reason was their patent dispute with immersion14:59
Shrik3after that cleared - surprise - the vibration components suddenly fit inside the controller =)15:00
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Chikuok gmail video works for wifi15:01
Khertan <--- still require your vote !15:01
SpeedEvilFunnyface: 1W will charge the n900 - if not being used - in about 4h.15:02
tybolltKhertan: you may stop spamming that now...15:02
SpeedEvilFunnyface: that's in the desert sun. But it will also overheat it.15:02
tybolltit's getting annoying since I suppose it is just a script15:02
Khertantybollt: yep ... really :) it was not post to the right windows15:02
Khertanno it s not a script15:02
tybolltoh well :)15:02
Khertanbut a arrow up15:02
Khertanshift tab15:03
FunnyfaceSpeedEvil: yes, I think it is pretty much a useless idea, + most of those people are probably clueless about the power you can expect from the panel, and how much the device uses :P15:03
Khertanbut ... the ctrl was missing in the ctrl-shift-tab shortcut15:03
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Funnyfacehowever when we get these thin film cells that can be integrated into clothes and such, maybe they'll sell coats with a charger plug in the pocket :D15:03
SpeedEvilIn more normal climates - it might charge if left all summer day15:04
Khertanso the result was posting it again ... instead of posting it to an other firefox tabs :) sorry for the noise15:04
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tybolltKhertan: no harm done :)15:05
X-FadeKhertan: Spammer ;)15:05
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KhertanX-Fade: at least you haven't see my other project yet ...15:06
Khertanbluespam ... a proximity bluetooth spammer :)15:06
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DocScrutinizerKhertan: HAH, that's you15:09
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KhertanDocScrutinizer: i'm not the only one who done that ... but i ve one that use a n810 to spam :)15:10
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Khertanhum ... is slow15:13
Khertanand doesn't answer ...15:13
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Khertannext time it was when pr1.1 was available :)15:13
Khertanmaybe a good sign15:13
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DocScrutinizerprobably the cleaning team accitentally hit one of the screens of the 770 server farm15:15
tybollt770 server farm?15:15
pupnikRST38h: i cant really find anything unworkable with nethack / vultures eye and N900 keyboard.  don't recall all commands though.15:15
Khertanoh ? really there is more than one 770 ?15:15
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tybolltNokia N770 server farm?15:16
Khertanyou mean they use 3 770 for hosting maemo ?15:16
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DocScrutinizernah they expanded it to 50 recently15:16
mmarc__SpeedEvil: thanks, but how now can I switch from busybox's grep onto grep-gnu? configure seems still trying to use busybox's grep15:16 speed has been okay for me at least lately15:17
Khertanstupid but required ... as other are stupid too15:19
Khertanoupss ... wrong windows15:19
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* Khertan should clean is keyboard ... ctrl key isn't working all the time15:20
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Meegohi... can u help me? i need to create a key press value to change direcory on biash shell script15:21
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Meegosomething like press 1 to mmc15:22
tybolltwho you calling a biatch?15:22
Meegobash sorry15:22
tybolltjust kidding15:22
Khertan... hum ...  there is more and more Meego ... M33GO m33g0 m3eGo nick here15:22
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tybolltKhertan: /nick meeto :)15:23
Meegomeego we hope bout it15:23
Meegocan u help me?15:23
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tybolltcan you elaborate on what you need to do?15:24
tybolltchanging dir is accomplished by the "cd" command followed by a path15:24
Meegoi need  a code script that pressing 1 works like cd /media/mmc1/ pressing 2 others...15:25
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Meegoi know. but i have to create a valute with an echo.15:26
tybolltwhile readline15:26
timeless_mbp2_|Nix|_: sorry, i'm around now...15:26
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tybolltis the typical bashism for that Meego15:26
Meegoan example?15:26
tybolltMeego: the bash man page has plenty IIRC15:26
tybolltor the googles15:26
Meegoplease... i m creating a maemo application15:27
tybollttimeless_mbp2: what will it cost me to bribe an N900 nookla person to change "Yeah, right" to something else? :S15:27
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timeless_mbp2tybollt: 'yeah, right' is only in my en_US locale...15:28
timeless_mbp2the en_GB locale uses something else15:28
timeless_mbp2if you don't like yeah, right, you can use en_GB :)15:28
tybollttimeless_mbp2: You want me to change to .fi, don't you? :P15:28
tybolltbut fair enough then15:28
chr83hi everybody! i followed the irc link on i'm interested in buying the n900 but i have questions for which i couldn't find answers, maybe some of you can help15:29
Meegowe can15:29
Meegoi ve it15:29
tybollttimeless_mbp2: when it boots back up ... will it be "Very well then, jolly ol chap"?15:29
Meegoi m chatting with it15:29
chr83thanks. s, from what i gathered, it is quite possible that maego 6 / meego won't run on the n900, right?15:30
timeless_mbp2tybollt: sadly it's slightly more business like, i don't remember precisely15:30
timeless_mbp2do you really dislike yeah, right?15:30
mmarc__do we have glib-2.0 on maemo?15:30
timeless_mbp2mmarc__:*debian/control ?15:30
Meegomaemo 5? i check15:30
Shrik3chr83: no one really knows if it will run or not15:30
tybollttimeless_mbp2: I die a little inside everytime I see it. But I don't want to be a nerd and file a bug report just for you to go all WON'TFIX on me :):)15:31
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chr83yes, what i wonder is this: if/when nokia stops updating the n900, is maemo open enough that the community / the devs can still fix bugs and add features, or is this only possible with nokia's blessing?15:32
Meegowe have on fremantle libglib2.0-015:32
Stskeepschr83: my role is to help community do things in that area15:33
timeless_mbp2chr83: you don't mean fix features and add bugs? :)15:33
Stskeepsand blessing can mean a lot of things :)15:33
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: :-)15:33
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Meegosomeone can help me with bash shell script?15:34
tybollttimeless_mbp2: thanks, the UK_en is way way less nausiating, although far from perfect.15:34
chr83so it's possible? i'm worried having a no-longer officially supported device which still has bugs and missing features a year from now - and that the core of the maemo community will be focusing on meego and newer devices15:34
mmarc__timeless_mbp2: thanks15:35
lcukmeego use a proper nickname like everybody else15:35
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lcukwell that solves that problem15:35
tybolltawww =)15:35
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timeless_mbp2chr83: roughly, you can update modest independently of nokia15:35
timeless_mbp2as long as you can get translation strings for new features15:36
lcukand theres a metric tonne of code on gitorious now15:36
timeless_mbp2you can get firefox for mobile from mozilla.org15:36
lcukall the desktop and gtk stuff and lots of things15:36
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timeless_mbp2you can add additional codecs (or improved ones) for mafw via gstreamer15:36
timeless_mbp2roughly speaking, you have a debian derivative with a slightly strange base15:36
timeless_mbp2but if there's a third party with a decent mobile ui, you can probably get their app for your n900 and use it and rely on their maintenance cycle15:37
lcukwe just had a patch from community for tracker15:37
chr83i heard the drivers are not open source is that true?15:37
SpeedEvilchr83: no15:37
SpeedEvilchr83: at least not for most15:37
Stskeepschr83: all kernel modules are open source15:37
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SpeedEvilyes, that15:38
Stskeepsand kernel itself15:38
Stskeepsthere is an exception to some userland bits which are closed (3d libs, battery management) but they aren't a problem if you aren't too idealistic and focus on the goal instead15:38
koala_manchr83: maemo has several blobs, but you can install other os like Mer15:38
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lcukand of course you can do whatever you want to replace the closed components whilst keeping the os15:39
chr83those community patches - do they get incorporated into the official nokia updates or is there some community website with patches to download or something ?15:39
Stskeepsthey occasionally get included15:40
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lcukchr83, i can confirm that community patches do get integrated when they are reported and documented and managed correctly and have a real effect (ie fixing real bugs)15:40
lcuk"i made a patch to replace os with android" probably wont get in ;)15:41
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lcukbut something like "my album art is borked but i found out why" has a much better chance15:41
lcukStskeeps, didnt one of your patches get merged in recently15:42
chr83great. one real world end-user example: it's possible that there will be skype videocalls with the front cam even after nokia stopped updateing7supporting the n900?15:42
lcukyou blogged about it15:42
lcukwhen community start offering patches for skype then they can be looked at15:42
lcukbut last i heard there was no community of developers15:43
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X-Fadechr83: Skype is a wrong example as that is a closed source application.15:43
Stskeepslcuk: yeah, but for some purposes my patches aren't community15:43
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lcuknot now i agree but wasnt that done before you were upgraded15:44
Stskeepsjesus, it's snowing a lot outside15:44
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Stskeepslcuk: think some may have15:44
mmarc__configure: error: S-Lang library version 2.0 or newer not found15:44
mmarc__slang1/slang1a seems to be not the right thing. Maybe we need slang2? Does it exist?15:44
lcukchr83, there is also the case that all the upstream modifications that go in15:44
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chr83another speculation which oyu guys probably can make much better informed guesses about: if maemo6/meego really won't be supported on the n900 - do you think the majority of devs will move onto newer devices, leaving the n900 behind?15:47
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SpeedEvilAt some point, devs move.15:47
SpeedEvilDevs move with the users - prettymuch15:48
AndrewfblackStskeeps: Should I bug you this week?15:48
chr83you know the n900 is quite expensive so i have to convince myself it's a good decision ;)15:48
SpeedEvildeveloping for a platform with 0 users is boring.15:48
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ptlreally, guys, what made us very insecure about our N900s are these vague responses15:48
Stskeepsgo read my post15:48
Stskeepsand the FUD thread15:48
ptlI consider this very negative... More feedback should be given to prospective devs/users15:48
X-FadePeople tend to follow the new things anyway. But that said, harmattan hardware is announced to use omap3 too.15:49
X-FadeSo there isn't a cpu generation change.15:49
t_s_oit also depends on what kind of project the dev is working on, and how it can benefit from new hardware or platform15:49
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dazochr83:  it is a good buy ... expensive, yes ... but it's one of the best devices I've ever had ... I dropped Nokia after 7650 ... had two SE K700i and K800i .... but N900 is just awesome!15:49
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ptlWhy can't we have definitive responses? It seems we're just being deceived. Go out and say: "Nor maemo 6 neiter Meego will run on N900. You'll have to buy a new device. Updates will stop at the end of the year."15:50
mmarc__slang2 exists in maemo5 tree, but not clear, what repository it belongs to. Do you know?15:50
ptlOr say "Yes, we'll help you run Maemo 6 on the N900 but it will be unofficial, since we can't guarantee the update"15:50
ptleither way, please, don't say generic stuff like 'developers move with the users'15:50
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dazochr83:  the device could have parts which would be more open, to be idealistic .... but the platform itself seems to be open enough .... and which other platforms gives you the power to format your own phone into a non-bootable state, requiring reflashing?  And you can even reflash it yourself ....15:51
AndrewfblackStskeeps: which post?15:51
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SpeedEvilptl: Sorry - it's a fact.15:51
ptlthe platform is open, but it seems to not be following linus' kernel tree, either15:51
SpeedEvilptl: If users stop using devices - so will devs.15:51
StskeepsAndrewfblack: ah, wasn't to you :) was about the worrying one15:51
SpeedEvilptl: Point to one thing with an active development community and no users.15:52
t_s_optl: its the age old story of marketing vs engineering. the former trives on vagueness, the latter on exactness15:52
dazochr83:  I don't think you'll regret getting an N900 .... it will always be a better device next week .... but I see my N900 to last for at least 18-24 more months :)15:52
AndrewfblackStskeeps: ok15:52
ptlSpeedEvil: let's say I am tired of Nokia (and Moblin, and Meego, and Maemo personnel) non-responses... They don't help, and I'd rather know with anticipation if I should invest more in this platform or not.15:52
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SpeedEvilptl: Look at the current state of mer15:53
X-Fadeptl: uses linux-omap, pretty well known tree.15:53
t_s_oand also, never talk about the upcoming product while the existing product its going to replace is in the shelfs, as that can kill the sales of the existing device15:53
SpeedEvilAt some point largescale support for the n900 will go away - as users migrate to other devices.15:53
ptlX-Fade: that's not true, even the touchscreen driver was taken off the linux-omap tree after 2.6.29 from what I've read on the mailing lists15:53
tybolltt_s_o: that why they announced meego NOW? :):):)15:54
SpeedEvilLargescale community support I mean.15:54
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t_s_otybollt: thats a platform, not a hardware product15:54
Stskeepsptl: it was re-introduced actually15:54
Stskeepsjust not merged yet15:54
tybolltt_s_o: tell that to hundreds of thousands of N900 nerds out there...15:54
t_s_otybollt: and they have been clear that existing software will be able to run on meego15:54
ptl* PR1.0, PR1.0.1 or PR1.1 on your N900 ---> not PR 1.1.1?15:55
t_s_otybollt: nerds should know the difference, the joes with a lust for bling however...15:55
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chr83in my opinion the official "we don't know" answer about meego on n900 means pretty much "no"... but i don't even have to have the newest os generation, i just don't want a device which won't be updated any more maybe a year from now and then still has bugs nad misses features - that's why i wonder how strong the community really is an dhow open the n900 really is...15:56
X-FadeRemember now that development is standardizing on Qt, we can always recompile apps for Maemo 5 etc.15:56
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toggles_wchr83: once nokia stops you move to Mer15:57
X-Fadechr83: No phone will ever be without bugs. And always missing the latest features.15:57
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nid0the "we dont know" is the only answer youll get until/unless nokia physically have a finalised working running copy of meego running on a production n900. even saying "maybe" would open massive tins of legal worms if they ended up not being able to deliver for any reason.15:57
chr83of course. but take the iphone for example, it may be far from perfect, but you can still get the newest os version for the oldest over 2 yeaqr old device15:57
koala_maneven if all official n900 updates stopped today, I'd still buy it again15:57
X-FadeAnd nobody knows what MeeGo really is, so until then nobody can promise you anything.15:58
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chr83yeah i don't need a meego promise, i actually don't acre about the newest os or anything, i just want something which will not be forgotten in the 18 month timeframe15:59
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DocScrutinizerchr83: so what will that 'newest os version' buy you?15:59
SpeedEvil18 months - I think it's safe to say that there will be a community distribution worstcase.16:00
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SpeedEvil36 months - support on that will probably be dropping away.16:00
SpeedEvilAnd much over that, you risk drivers dropping out of the kernel due to not being maintained.16:00
ptlAre you liable for these schedules? :P16:00
SpeedEvilOf course not.16:00
SpeedEvilBased on prior experience with community hardware.16:00
nid0we're gonna come at you with pitchforks if you're wrong.16:01
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SpeedEvilFor $5000, I would attempt to make sure drivers stay in the mainline kernel for 5 years.16:02
SpeedEvilOtherwise - ...16:02
chr83docscrutinizer: i don't know and as i said i don't need the newest os generation, i just want to make sure that hings like better gmail support in the email client (i heard it's really slow if you have a lot of messages) will be available16:02
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nid0then you're better going with an iphone, crystal ball doesnt know whether nokia will rewrite the email client16:03
chr83i alreday have a 3gs but  i need a new toy ;)16:04
SpeedEvilmodest is opensource.16:04
SpeedEvilYou can add shit if you want, or convince people to.16:04
DocScrutinizerchr83: let me put it this way: I fnokia needs 12months or more to provide this functionality you're missing, and there was no way to work around that with FOSS apps, then you probably should return your device16:04
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X-FadeDocScrutinizer: You shouldn't even have bought it then.16:05
sar3thchr83: i use gmail/imap with a huge load of mails, it's pretty fast16:05
nid0tbh though the point is more that adding enough to modest to make it anything better than modest effectively means rewriting it.16:05
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: You should buy it if it does for you what you want it to do.16:05
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DocScrutinizerX-Fade: there's no way to tell, other than buy and test ;-P16:05
chr83sar3th: so that has been fixed? good :)16:05
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sar3thi haven't tested with normal pop and not much mails though16:06
nid0its pretty quick at handling imap folders for me as well, but its actual functionality's chronically limited16:06
nid0and pop is still bugged until pr1.2 at least16:06
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timeless_mbp2does anyone here know anything about 'gnome-mount' ?16:07
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DocScrutinizerX-Fade: still for things like dialler not accepting USSD codes, or frontcam quality borked, I'd always be willing to give Nokia a chance to fix that. Not in 18 months though. That's been my rationale behind the advice to chr8316:09
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DocScrutinizeractually there's very few such basic flaws I'm aware of16:09
DocScrutinizerand seems Nokia is willing to fix them in reasonable timeframe16:10
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nid0well there's basically ussd codes, frontcam, ovi connectivity, and arguably mms16:11
ptlvery few?16:11
* timeless_mbp2 is confused16:11
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ptlovi maps is too crude, no support for videocalls and mms, no LEAP on wifi, no dialpad shortcuts, no landscape mode, just to recall from memory16:12
ptlthey are not few16:12
ptlat least admit they are more than a few.16:13
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ptlmany of them are even16:13
ptlmany of them are even 'wontfix' bugs... like the LEAP support16:13
SpeedEvilptl: and many users don't care about those16:14
nid0no portrait mode is arguable at best, this is a device that's obviously designed to be used in landscape for anything other than talking on the phone, if that's a major problem for a user it can easily be chalked up to buying the wrong device.16:14
ptlYes, a wireless authentication protocol used by about 50% of big businesses.16:14
timeless_mbp2ptl: 'dialpad shortcuts'?16:14
sar3thoh oky16:14
timeless_mbp2you can stick a call X onto your home screen16:14
timeless_mbp2what do you mean 'no landscape mode'?16:14
chr83oh another thing, is there samba / cifs client and server support available? ported from regular debian i guess?16:15
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ptltimeless_mbp2: I know... but that's not the same (I agree this one is a minor issue)16:15
timeless_mbp299% of apps support landscape16:15
ptltimeless_mbp2: you can't press the shortcut and start calling, you first have to select call or sms16:15
DocScrutinizerptl: so wtf stops you from implementing this LEAP for your device?16:15
nid0timeless_mbp2, i suspect he meant no portrait mode16:15
ptlDocScrutinizer: it's a patented authentication scheme, I can't program by myself16:15
timeless_mbp2iirc Blocks is the only app that doesn't support landscape16:15
timeless_mbp2nid0: then he better spell it right16:15
ptlnid0: yes, thanks for correcting me16:15
DocScrutinizerptl: so probably can't Nokia16:15
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timeless_mbp2portrait support is being slowly added to apps16:16
timeless_mbp2a bunch of other apps get portrait in 1.216:16
timeless_mbp2urho is writing the major release notes for that now16:16
ptlI agree that system apps are getting portrair mode support16:16
timeless_mbp2video call is coming for gtalk in 1.216:16
timeless_mbp2mms is available from a third party16:16
ptlbut wasn't the system itself supposed to facilitate it?16:17
timeless_mbp2but mms was never a promised feature16:17
ptl1.2 is going out today?16:17
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timeless_mbp2and complaining about something we never promised is incredibly stupid16:17
timeless_mbp2the same applies to leap16:17
mikkovisn't video call for gtalk working already?16:17
ptlI don't even use MMS16:17
timeless_mbp2ptl: most people don't waste time writing release notes 10 months in advance16:17
ptlbut I am acknowledging that it is a feature that users might want16:17
timeless_mbp2too much time for things to change16:17
timeless_mbp2so it should mean we're talking about <8 weeks :)16:17
timeless_mbp2(maybe <10 weeks?)16:17
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DocScrutinizerptl: might want is BS. It's not a promised feature16:18
timeless_mbp2users want ~the moon and the stars in the sky, i swear~16:18
tybolltI still consider it a flaw16:18
tybolltno mms is a flaw16:18
timeless_mbp2no mms is not a flaw16:18
ptlDocScrutinizer: there are some expectations you get even if the producer didn't promise, because they are present in old phones. MMS, videocall are some example16:19
tybollttimeless_mbp2: it is16:19
timeless_mbp2the kernel we're using can't support mms properly16:19
tybollttimeless_mbp2: it was in the iphone it is in the n900.16:19
ptlcan't support?16:19
timeless_mbp2so trying to implement it would just have resulted in people complaining about it not working16:19
tybollttimeless_mbp2: fair enough16:19
arachnistmms? i find it hardly useful, since we have "share via service" on the n90016:19
ptlisn't MMS a application-space-feature?16:19
timeless_mbp2ptl: the mms network violates certain rules about ip numbering16:19
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tybollttimeless_mbp2: My point is I'm not a disgruntled kid talking about promises. :-)16:19
timeless_mbp2because it violates ip address routing16:19
arachnistptl: not entierly. it needs a separate network connection16:19
arachnistptl: and what timeless_mbp2 said16:20
timeless_mbp2which means you need a hacked networking stack to make it work properly16:20
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timeless_mbp2symbian happens to have such a stack16:20
timeless_mbp2i'm not quite sure how apple does it16:20
timeless_mbp2(symbian uses iirc a deprecated portion of the ipv6 scheme for mms, which is a clever hack, but it's a hack)16:21
timeless_mbp2a later version of the linux kernel has some support for this disaster, fwiw16:21
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timeless_mbp2but it still requires some interesting machinations16:21
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timeless_mbp2because an app that's run as a user is supposed to inherit networking from its parent16:21
tybollttimeless_mbp2: now you're just showing off mate. You know the rest of us have no clue :P16:21
arachnisttybollt: i have a clue.16:21
fralsbottom line, dont use mms if you can help it16:21
Terje2timeless, Symbian supports IP namespaces: different connections have different IP namespaces. Same thing is coming to Linux.16:22
timeless_mbp2tybollt: sadly i've listened to people describing the problem16:22
timeless_mbp2Terje1: they used a portion of the ipv6 stuff to do it  iirc16:22
tybolltarachnist: mea culpa16:22
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tybolltfrals: you may not have a choice (receiving mms)16:22
timeless_mbp2Terje2: i'm not sure exactly how the linux stuff is going to be implemented16:22
timeless_mbp2but my impression is that the security portion makes the linux story sad16:23
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timeless_mbp2roughly it should mean that you have to create a daemon on the other side of the ip namespace stack so that your normal app started by a normal app can use the wrong ip namespace16:23
DocScrutinizertybollt: please bear in mind there's other phones out there which don't know to mss16:23
Terje2timeless, I disagree, they did it "the correct way". You don't need IPv6 hacks if you consider the network interface name to be part of the IP address. Same thing is going into Linux kernel.16:23
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timeless_mbp2'network interface name to be part of the ip address'?16:24
* timeless_mbp2 sighs16:24
tybolltDocScrutinizer: those phones are then by the same standards: flawed16:24
timeless_mbp2trying to deal with Finglish is too complicated16:24
timeless_mbp2or Fingrish16:24
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* timeless_mbp2 goes off to write a letter to Nokia House16:25
Terje2timeless, I guess end of discussion.16:25
timeless_mbp2Terje2: yep16:25
timeless_mbp2come back when you can express yourself :(16:25
DocScrutinizertybollt: huh? how's a 8 year old 6210 flawed when it simply has no display or cam or whatever to handle multimedia content at all16:25
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Terje2timeless, I did.16:26
DocScrutinizertybollt: same applies for the 15bucks phone you buy at your local store next week16:26
* tybollt hope to $DEITY doc didn't just compare a 6210 to a N900...16:26
timeless_mbp2Terje2: _clearly_16:26
timeless_mbp2and _understandably_16:26
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timeless_mbp2fwiw, a good example of Fingrish is here:
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timeless_mbp2> It also comes packing free walk and drive navigation courtesy of Ovi Maps and is ready for messaging with Nokia Messaging built in.16:27
DocScrutinizertybollt: I just say nobody can expect an MMS sent to you is really making it to your display. So you always got an alternative to recieving MMS16:27
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timeless_mbp2tybollt: how's that line? :)16:28
DocScrutinizertybollt: it's by no means a mandatory feature16:28
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