IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2010-03-03

Shapeshifter	I mean, I also see it's the name of the file, some sort of revision maybe, a date and his name... but why?	00:00
GeneralAntilles	javispedro, the maemo.org logo in there is a bit ironic.	00:00
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javispedro	GeneralAntilles: the entire ad is weird.	00:01
v13	Shapeshifter: It's from the svn. just ignore it. it's useful for knowing what revision is this file from.	00:01
javispedro	I wonder what it tries to .. symbolize.	00:01
GeneralAntilles	javispedro, apparently Mozilla employees are all moles?	00:01
spider_	Firefox is still too slow compared to MicroB	00:01
javispedro	GeneralAntilles: I understood the opposite: that all Nokia employees (and maemo.org) are moles, working underground for the only Mozilla employee.	00:01
Shapeshifter	v13: I see	00:02
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v13	Shapeshifter: fwiw, it says: setup.py revision 2266 changes 2010-02-21 19:33:27Z by v13	00:02
GeneralAntilles	javispedro, who only does QA? :D	00:02
pupnik	zoutube also cannot accept youtube urls directly	00:03
javispedro	heh, if his paws allow him to do qa :)	00:03
Shapeshifter	v13: mhh	00:03
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SpeedEvil	Firefox is often faster than microb I find	00:04
SpeedEvil	even usually, on slower networks	00:04
GeneralAntilles	javispedro, I bet they work great on the capacitive N900+1. :rolleyes:	00:04
* javispedro wonders where is the maemo.org underground mole base		00:04
javispedro	in Finland for sure, since it's all snowy >:)	00:04
spider_	SpeedEvil: really? faster than MicroB?	00:04
SpeedEvil	spider_: yes.	00:05
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SpeedEvil	spider_: forex ~20%-30% faster at painting www.ebay.com www.slashdot.com	00:05
SpeedEvil	spider_: especially if you kill microb first	00:05
spider_	mmhh...maybe downloading webpages...but opening windows, options and so on I found it slower	00:05
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GeneralAntilles	Only because the Gecko is newer.	00:06
SpeedEvil	spider_: perhaps - in some ways. Tabs is a great speedup for me	00:06
GeneralAntilles	PR1.2 may catch up.	00:06
spider_	yeah, I agree	00:06
Shapeshifter	uhm	00:06
SpeedEvil	The task manager blows in general - which is the larger problem	00:06
GeneralAntilles	Fennec has a newer, faster engine, MicroB has the faster native UI.	00:06
SpeedEvil	you can't flip between windows.	00:06
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GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, somebody has a patched h-d running around somewhere.	00:07
GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, do you have the camera key/proximity daemon installed?	00:07
SpeedEvil	GeneralAntilles: yes. camkeyd IIRC	00:07
Shapeshifter	so, in which repo is this firefox. I can't seem to find it	00:08
matthew-	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_JxD0l2uPo	00:08
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GeneralAntilles	Shapeshifter, Ovi Store :rolleyes:	00:09
GeneralAntilles	Because the Mozilla people are lazy bastards.	00:09
Shapeshifter	pff	00:09
Shapeshifter	:3	00:09
GeneralAntilles	Shapeshifter, seriously.	00:09
javispedro	I guess Nokia may have played a part in this.	00:10
GeneralAntilles	They couldn't be bothered to fix their packaging so they decided to distribute through the Ovi Store.	00:10
Shapeshifter	the firefox people should get their whole app structure sorted anyway	00:10
GeneralAntilles	Indeed	00:10
Shapeshifter	what a mess.	00:10
* Shapeshifter is only waiting for chromium to get a frontend to no-script like features (which have finally been implemented for a couple of weeks) to switch away from that lazy fox		00:11
Shapeshifter	(on the desktop)	00:11
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pupnik	what is better than microb Shapeshifter ?	00:12
lcuk	thanks matthew- :)	00:12
lcuk	is there a maemo tunes radio station :p	00:12
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pupnik	with javacrap pausing it doesnt chew much cpu usually	00:12
Arif_	anyone know if you can tell KMPlayer to play a file with a shortcut?	00:13
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Shapeshifter	pupnik: mh? I meant, on the desktop, where I'm using firefox, I'm waiting for chromium to get a wee bit better to switch. on the n900, I'm using microb. I don't find it that bad. Tad slow really	00:13
Shapeshifter	which is to be expected	00:14
* n00bmonk3y blinks		00:15
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javispedro	you all need to play a bit with a n810.	00:20
javispedro	if you say "microb is slow".	00:20
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* javispedro wonders which wikipedia admin allowed http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture#PS3_Date_Controversy		00:22
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Stskeeps	wtf	00:24
Shapeshifter	javispedro: guess so. It's still like 5-50 times slower then anything I have on my lap top. I'd still say mobile computing sucks big time. The n900 is actually my first mobile on contract that does more then just SMS...	00:25
pupnik	heh true javispedro	00:25
Shapeshifter	it's pretty decent. Actually, I love it :D Still, it's relatively bad. Or, far away of what I'd like to have	00:25
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ClaesBas	Does anybody here know howto get ÅÄÖ to work (UTF-8) with OpenSSH from the N900 to "screen:ed irssi"?	00:27
v13	javispedro: that article is not locked in any way, so there was no need for "allowing". You can change it yourself :)	00:27
nid0	the n900's browsing experience is the first i've found that stands up against my archos imt (which is really nice to browse with), so things are at least going in the right direction	00:27
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javispedro	v13: if I delete the entire paragraph (which is the only real solution) the only thing I'm going to create is a flame war.	00:28
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javispedro	s/paragraph/section	00:28
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nid0	I saved you the trouble.	00:29
javispedro	speaking about flames, piracy thread in tmo.	00:29
Arif_	lol	00:29
v13	javispedro: I believe it is ok if you delete it and move it in the "discussion" page	00:30
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javispedro	nid0: well, thanks :D	00:30
Arif_	piracy is bad 'mkay	00:30
Arif_	=P	00:30
luke-jr	yes, please do not kill innocent people while you raid their ships at high seas	00:30
luke-jr	:(	00:30
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javispedro	ah, the entire article's been trolled now	00:32
luke-jr	javispedro: why not allow it?	00:32
javispedro	luke-jr: did you really read it?	00:32
luke-jr	javispedro: yeah	00:33
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luke-jr	it gets slightly off-topic, but other than that...	00:33
javispedro	"sligthly"?	00:33
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luke-jr	wait	00:33
luke-jr	PS3	00:33
luke-jr	that isn't ARM...	00:33
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Xisdibik	Heya everyone	00:36
Arif_	hai	00:36
Xisdibik	hows everyone today?	00:36
Arif_	productive	00:36
Arif_	I saved myself a lot of time today :P	00:36
pupnik	http://www.pygame.org/project-Barbie+Seahorse+Adventures-406-.html nice side scroller in pygame	00:37
Xisdibik	Barbie	00:37
Xisdibik	sounds scary	00:37
Arif_	yes	00:37
Arif_	port it to maemo!	00:37
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Xisdibik	Arif_: ive been productive today at work too, its 2:30 and im finally eating lunch. Wish i didnt have to be productive today though as its my birthday.	00:38
Arif_	oh	00:38
Arif_	I don't work	00:38
Arif_	oh sorry to hear you got old ;(	00:38
Arif_	er	00:38
Xisdibik	heh	00:38
Xisdibik	25 isnt that old!	00:38
SpeedEvil	Xisdibik: yes it is.	00:38
Arif_	wow	00:38
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Arif_	I'm not even 20!	00:38
Xisdibik	heh	00:38
Xisdibik	you young whippersnappers!	00:39
Arif_	there you go	00:39
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Xisdibik	why i remember when i was young, we had to walk 20 miles in the snow, with no shoes, just to get to school	00:39
Arif_	good luck finding snow in .nl	00:39
Xisdibik	heh	00:39
Xisdibik	good luck finding snow in Berkeley California :P	00:40
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Xisdibik	theres snow here about once every 50 years	00:40
Arif_	I walk 100m to the bus stop	00:40
Arif_	that's far too :(	00:40
Xisdibik	I drive for about 1.5 miles to a subway station	00:40
Xisdibik	and then take the subway for 30-45 minutes to work	00:40
Arif_	I take the bus for 45 minutes	00:40
Arif_	then the metro for 10 minutes	00:40
Arif_	to go to school ;(	00:40
Arif_	damn uni :P	00:41
Arif_	it should be closer!	00:41
v13	pytowerdefense ???	00:41
SpeedEvil	Arif_: Live in a toilet.	00:41
Xisdibik	to get to school i drive to the subway station, then take the subway for 1 hour, and then take a school shuttle for 15 minutes	00:41
Xisdibik	:)	00:41
v13	ok.. that's a good one for n900 most probably :)	00:41
Arif_	shuttle?	00:41
Xisdibik	like a bus, but it only stops at the subway station, and the school	00:41
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Arif_	aw	00:42
v13	(that one: http://www.pygame.org/project-PyTowerDefense-1332-.html)	00:42
Arif_	I was imagining you flying around the moon	00:42
pupnik	i think we have a towerdefense clone, no v13 ?	00:42
v13	?	00:42
v13	which is that ?	00:42
* v13 slow		00:42
* Xisdibik fast		00:42
Xisdibik	I would love to seen Bloons Tower Defense 1-4 ported to Maemo	00:43
Arif_	I'd like to see all games ported	00:43
Arif_	you can never have enough games	00:43
Xisdibik	i could do without Hello Kitty Island Adventure	00:44
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Arif_	pff	00:44
Arif_	hello kitty is cute :D	00:44
luke-jr	Arif_: I'll port Armagetron if you get me a N900 ;p	00:44
Xisdibik	I prefer Totoro	00:44
Xisdibik	luke-jr: u still dont have one yet?	00:44
luke-jr	Xisdibik: nope	00:44
Arif_	luke-jr, it took me 2 months to get my own	00:44
Xisdibik	luke-jr: cant you second mortgage your soul to the devil for one?	00:44
pupnik	impressive number of pygame projects	00:45
luke-jr	Xisdibik: not worth it	00:45
nid0	sure it is	00:45
Arif_	at the end I gave up	00:45
Arif_	and got one 2nd hand	00:45
Arif_	:P	00:45
nid0	took me about 2 months to get as well thanks to shitty o2 being shit :<	00:45
luke-jr	why get a device with 256 MB RAM when devices with 1 GB RAM are coming out?	00:46
pupnik	v13: i seem to recall a thread on t.m.o	00:46
luke-jr	especially when it's such a steep price	00:46
Arif_	because they run javadroid?	00:46
luke-jr	Arif_: and?	00:46
Xisdibik	luke-jr: because i want you to port Armagetron to it so i can play	00:46
nid0	I hear amount of ram === the only thing needed to make a good phone?	00:46
nid0	owait.	00:46
Arif_	they don't like streaming video :*	00:46
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luke-jr	Arif_: I would only tolerate Maemo to port Armagetron for you. after that, Maemo gets wiped	00:46
Arif_	lol	00:46
matthew-	uh my n900 is kinda not usable w/o external headphones or smth	00:46
luke-jr	nid0: nope, but it's a big factor; also, I don't want a phone	00:46
matthew-	:(	00:47
matthew-	sad	00:47
nid0	phone speaker dead?	00:47
Arif_	matthew-, because the speakers suck?	00:47
luke-jr	matthew-: I hear Nokia fixes speakers w/ warranty	00:47
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luke-jr	nid0: in any case, RAM is basically the only good thing I see in N900	00:48
javispedro	RAM?	00:48
javispedro	I was going to say that RAM is the worst part of it..	00:48
luke-jr	javispedro: yeah, RAM	00:48
Arif_	I don't need 1GB of RAM to stream TV shows =P	00:49
luke-jr	Arif_: and TV shows are useless	00:49
Arif_	what I do need is a bigger screen	00:49
nid0	hd2 is the phone to get then if you want screen size	00:49
luke-jr	Arif_: exactly my point	00:49
luke-jr	N900 screen < N900 RAM	00:49
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javispedro	well, that is true too :)	00:49
Arif_	I don't want crashdows mobile	00:49
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luke-jr	nid0: I want at minimum 512 MB RAM, 4" screen, USABLE keyboard, etc	00:49
nid0	dont fail at using it and winmo doesnt crash	00:49
luke-jr	Arif_: learn to port Linux	00:50
microlith	nid0: you shouldn't need to be careful with an OS for it to not crash	00:50
Arif_	maybe I'll get a WP7 phone	00:50
Arif_	when they port coreplayer	00:50
nid0	and you dont need to be careful with winmo, you have to utterly fail at it	00:50
luke-jr	I hope Nexus Two is decent	00:50
Arif_	coreplayer was so awesome ;(	00:50
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javispedro	it will still be capacitive and use android	00:50
luke-jr	javispedro: if it's actually free software for hw support, better than Maemo	00:51
microlith	fat chance of that	00:51
javispedro	oh, who knows.	00:51
nid0	even my girlfriend's been able to use her hd2 for almost 3 months without so much as a blip from it, and shes the kind of person who technology just tends to break around	00:51
microlith	android has all the same hardware support issues maemo has	00:51
luke-jr	speaking of which, anyone ever confirm N1's actual software status?	00:51
luke-jr	microlith: Android in general, yes. Google's own phone... no?	00:52
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microlith	luke-jr: google isn't special, it's just an HTC phone with google's logo	00:52
javispedro	luke-jr: interesting topic nevertheless. if you ever create a report, please post it somewhere :)	00:52
luke-jr	microlith: but Google set the requirements	00:52
microlith	means nothing	00:52
microlith	they spec'd it	00:52
luke-jr	microlith: means quite a bit, from what I see.	00:52
GeneralAntilles	microlith, +3	00:52
microlith	they can't say "all the drivers will be open" and I suspect they don't care	00:53
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luke-jr	Google required users to be able to root it with a documented method	00:53
microlith	for the N1, yes	00:53
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microlith	but that doesn't mean -anything- with respect to drivers	00:53
Arif_	are there any external media players for android?	00:53
Xisdibik	heya GeneralAntilles	00:53
Arif_	-external +3rd party	00:54
Xisdibik	how goes things?	00:54
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GeneralAntilles	Xisdibik, having a nice glass of Cabernet Sauvignon and playing Forza 3.	00:55
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Arkenoi	No need to port Tower Defence if we were able to get flash mouse events working properly	00:56
javispedro	hah.	00:57
Arif_	nah	00:57
Arif_	flash is too batteryeatingish	00:58
lardman	night all	00:58
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pupnik	agree with Arif_	01:00
SpeedEvil	The people doing gnash should see if they can get energy efficiency grants.	01:01
SpeedEvil	Cutting flash power use by half has to be worth several powerstations	01:01
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Vanadis__	how do i manually execute the media player database update	01:03
Vanadis__	?	01:03
SpeedEvil	guillotine.	01:03
SpeedEvil	Or firing squad.	01:03
Vanadis__	-.-	01:03
Corsac	mpf	01:04
xorAxAx	how do i turn on the mouse pointer?	01:04
xorAxAx	i need it for x2x	01:04
SpeedEvil	killing and restarting the tracker daemon should do it - but it has a watchdog - so it will reboot youre device	01:04
Corsac	ca certificates list is weird	01:04
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javispedro	Vanadis__: tracker-processes -r then start media player.	01:04
Corsac	timeless_mbp2: do you know where the ca list comes from? (is it the standard nss list, for example?)	01:04
Vanadis__	kthx	01:04
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Corsac	seems that the list isn't up to date	01:07
n00bmonk3y	hmmm anyone a pyqt person? :D - i R Need help!	01:07
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v13	bb	01:10
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Xisdibik	GeneralAntilles: sounds like your having fun, im leaving work 15 minutes early (cuz its mah birthday), and going home to dishes and homework :/	01:15
SpeedEvil	Xisdibik: Have fun!	01:15
Xisdibik	SpeedEvil: thanks :D	01:16
SpeedEvil	Xisdibik: Put some good tunes on, and wash to the beat.	01:16
Xisdibik	heh	01:16
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Xisdibik	yea	01:16
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Arif_	anyone know if you can hide icons from the menu?	01:16
trem	nite all, sweet dreams	01:16
burchr	GeneralAntilles: oh dear.. :P	01:17
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GeneralAntilles	burchr, hmm?	01:17
burchr	GeneralAntilles: just saw the ML thread	01:17
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GeneralAntilles	burchr, yeah, fun.	01:17
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* n00bmonk3y grumbles...... Grrrrr PyQt Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr		01:20
w00t	n00bmonk3y: what's up?	01:20
n00bmonk3y	pyqt smells of poo....... want the detail? lol	01:20
n00bmonk3y	all i want is a message box.... (with no buttons)... just like hildon note, but they dont seem to exist in simple ways in qt :(	01:21
n00bmonk3y	so it pops up, whilst loading then goes.......	01:21
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n00bmonk3y	or pops up for a second after loading and sys loaded for a second	01:21
n00bmonk3y	i dont see the point in forcing someone to press when i just want to let them know it is done...	01:22
SpeedEvil	make one massive button	01:22
n00bmonk3y	lol ;)	01:22
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n00bmonk3y	would work better then nothing :)	01:22
SpeedEvil	and pop it down after 1s anyway	01:22
acidjazz	when do the nokia nazi zeppelins come across the lands sending out zaps bricking our n900's forcing us to purchase x86 intel n1000's	01:22
n00bmonk3y	just bugs me, hildon and gtk have answers... qt doesnt and thats the 1 we are getting stuck with :(	01:23
n00bmonk3y	ok, tis also the one i started learning, so self inflicted	01:23
* n00bmonk3y slaps lcuck		01:23
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* n00bmonk3y slaps lcuk, after spelling it correctly		01:24
wiretapped	acidjazz: last thursday	01:24
Vanadis__	good night everyone	01:24
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w00t	you probably want a QMaemo5InformationBox	01:24
* n00bmonk3y raises an eyebrow		01:24
w00t	but I don't think PyQt will wrap that yet, as it's a Maemo specific class, and Qt 4.6+ only	01:24
n00bmonk3y	hmmm so wont work?	01:25
n00bmonk3y	i mean, now in my normall app :(	01:25
w00t	PySide will probably wrap it, but PySide isn't as mature as PyQt. I don't know if PyQt plan to wrap stuff like that - you'd need to ask them.	01:25
w00t	http://qt.nokia.com/doc/qt-maemo-4.6/qmaemo5informationbox.html	01:25
n00bmonk3y	ooo but looking at it, yes!!!	01:25
n00bmonk3y	i want i want!	01:25
n00bmonk3y	cheers woot :( - looks perfect, but still no answer for the now :(	01:26
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w00t	no, but you know who to ask :)	01:26
* w00t wanders off to bed, as it's late		01:26
n00bmonk3y	hehe :)	01:26
n00bmonk3y	true i think	01:26
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n00bmonk3y	do i?	01:26
n00bmonk3y	lol nite!	01:26
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n00bmonk3y	anyway where is qwery and lcuk	01:27
n00bmonk3y	qwerty*	01:27
GeneralAntilles	qwerty12's disappeared.	01:27
SpeedEvil	he's gone for the operation.	01:27
SpeedEvil	He's gonna be azerty when he gets back.	01:27
arachnist	eww. he could at least end up as dvorak	01:28
* arachnist knows how to type on dvorak)		01:28
n00bmonk3y	lols	01:28
arachnist	:>	01:28
n00bmonk3y	i still need to learn how to type lol	01:28
zash	arachnist: :D	01:28
SpeedEvil	I have given up learning to properly type.	01:28
SpeedEvil	I'm at the stage wherre I can go 40wpm under the covers, which is fine for me.	01:29
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SpeedEvil	I want another keyboard though - with a trackpoint.	01:29
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pupnik	SpeedEvil: im still lovin my spacesaver II	01:31
SpeedEvil	http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/IBM-ENHANCED-KEYBOARD-WITH-TRACKPOINT-II-92G7461_W0QQitemZ290292972127QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCA_Mice_Trackballs?hash=item4396cf3a5f would be my ideal keyboard.	01:32
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GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/	01:32
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n00bmonk3y	hmmmm assuming you cant use pyside and pyqt at the same time?	01:34
SpeedEvil	GeneralAntilles: won't ship to me. Also the usb one has stupid extra keys.	01:34
n00bmonk3y	so this makes me more annoyed, hildon, gtk and pyside have an answer, and effing pyqt cant do it....	01:35
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GeneralAntilles	SpeedEvil, ah, too bad.	01:36
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kinetik	is it possible to change (or append to) the kernel boot command line on the n900?	01:39
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pupnik	>the guruguru board will be sweet	01:40
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pupnik	good q kinetik	01:40
kinetik	alternatively, knowing safe start/end memory addresses for the cmemk kernel module with the default kernel would be awesome	01:42
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kinetik	or a way to pass a bc-cat allocated buffer to the dsp for writing so that the machine doesn't crash :-)	01:43
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kinetik	would i be better asking in #maemo-devel?	01:44
derf	I would ask felipec, but it doesn't look like he's here now.	01:44
kinetik	good idea	01:45
derf	It _is_ after midnight in Finland.	01:45
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Lumpio-	Isn't that when people are most active?	01:47
SpeedEvil	Does he turn into a pumpkin after midnight?	01:47
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mmarc__	hello, guys, I've modified /etc/sudoers badly, and now root mode is unavailable due to corrupted sudoers file. Could you please help to recover? What is update-sudeors? Seems like I have not got it...	02:26
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arachnist	mmarc__: install openssh server	02:30
mmarc__	I've got it	02:30
arachnist	mmarc__: it should permit root logins and ask you for a root password when installing	02:30
Arkenoi	unpacking easydebian image takes more that 3 hours :-/	02:31
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mmarc__	how could I install anything if app manager won't work with corrupted sudoers?	02:32
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mmarc__	typing root in ssh session returns	02:32
mmarc__	>>> sudoers file: syntax error, line 75 <<<	02:32
mmarc__	sudo: parse error in /etc/sudoers near line 75	02:32
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mmarc__	arachnist: sorry, unclear, could you please explain	02:34
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SpeedEvil	mmarc__: In the absence of anyuone with better ideas - if you can't become root - you can't fix it.	02:35
SpeedEvil	You're gonna need to flash.	02:35
SpeedEvil	At least if you can't install stuff too	02:35
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mmarc__	and what is update-sudoers?	02:36
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Flandry	greetings maemoans	02:36
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mmarc__	I also have opened Xterminal on N900, but I cannot type to it due to some reason, probably, after vimming	02:41
mmarc__	*I also have opened ROOT Xterminal on N900, but I cannot type to it due to some reason, probably, after vimming	02:41
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mmarc__	any guide or howto for refalsh??	02:48
mmarc__	found	02:49
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mmarc__	another question: any chance to access apt-like repository for maemo? Everything I've succeeded with is installable only through app manager gui.	02:57
mgregsond	mmarc__: Maemo runs apt.	02:57
GeneralAntilles	mmarc__, the application manager is just an apt front-end. . . .	02:57
mgregsond	mmarc__: That thing just...	02:57
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mgregsond	mmarc__: nvm, he beat me to it.	02:57
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mmarc__	That's not so for me, I can't install anything with apt-get, it cannot find packages...	02:59
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cehteh	be careful with manual apt ... it easily fills up your root partition	03:00
mmarc__	Is anybody maintaining custom repos?	03:00
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cehteh	some do	03:00
GeneralAntilles	mmarc__, Extras provides you with just about everything you need.	03:01
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GeneralAntilles	apt-get works just fine here.	03:01
GeneralAntilles	The packages you're looking for simply may not exist.	03:01
mmarc__	how, for example, with midnight commander? Can't find it.	03:01
mgregsond	mmarc__: Huh? apt-cache search	03:01
mmarc__	also I tried apt-get install dosbox, that was not found, but it definitely exist	03:02
mgregsond	mmarc__: What package are you trying to install?	03:02
mmarc__	dosbox, foe example	03:02
mgregsond	mmarc__: Ok, have you enabled the repository that dosbox is in?	03:02
mmarc__	Ugh, probably not, it's unclear how it operates repositories...	03:04
mgregsond	mmarc__: It's apt.	03:04
mgregsond	mmarc__: It operates repositories in the usual apt manner.	03:04
mmarc__	okay, I'll try again after reflash, thanks!	03:04
cehteh	well .. with some fairy dust .. by nokia	03:04
mgregsond	cehteh: Okay, there's extra cruft, but the core is apt. It just does magic to make pretty pictures.	03:05
mmarc__	another thing to ask is what's the propetiary crap are we forced instead of openoffice?	03:05
mmarc__	Docs2go or something like that	03:05
cehteh	and not to fill up the rootfs .. and being able to distributed payware	03:05
mgregsond	mmarc__: Openoffice is MASSIVE.	03:05
mgregsond	cehteh: Oh? It can handle payware?	03:05
lcuk	am i the only person scared to even breath on a device being flashed?	03:06
mmarc__	so, what?	03:06
cehteh	ovi store?	03:06
mgregsond	cehteh: How? How do they stop you from just cp the .deb?	03:06
cehteh	dunno how it works	03:06
mgregsond	cehteh: Ok, but dpkg could handle downloadable binaries.	03:06
* lcuk has done it from day 1 of flashing pc bios		03:06
cehteh	mgregsond: maybe https and client certs .. i dont know	03:06
mgregsond	lcuk: I'm terrified of touching anything. I like to leave the room. Wont even play loud music. ;)	03:06
lcuk	:D	03:06
mgregsond	cehteh: Interesting.	03:06
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mgregsond	cehteh: I'll have to track down proper info on this.	03:07
cehteh	try to install something from ovi store and figure out .. i have no idea how thats implemented	03:07
GeneralAntilles	lcuk, the danger period for flashing is fractions of a second long.	03:07
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mmarc__	okay, except openoffice, there is abiword, for example. But why this 2Go crap?	03:07
mgregsond	cehteh: Ovistore just looked lame...	03:07
GeneralAntilles	NOLO is about 8KB last item I checked	03:07
lcuk	GeneralAntilles, dont say danger period lol	03:07
GeneralAntilles	Flashing goes at about 5-8MB/sec	03:07
lcuk	its just flashing in general	03:08
lcuk	i stop everything im doing on all machines for a few moments	03:08
mgregsond	mmarc__: I haven't used it, so I don't know how well it actually works.	03:08
mgregsond	mmarc__: There is nothing stopping you from porting/building an armel package for abiword...	03:08
lcuk	there has been nothing stopping many from doing same, afaik qole had it running nicely inside his chroot, whether the extra effort to get it direct in maemo is worth it is another matter (i might be wrong about actual word processor)	03:09
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cehteh	hey texlive is packaged and emacs too (externally).. i doubt thats smaller then openoffice :)	03:10
mgregsond	cehteh: Seriously?	03:10
lcuk	im thinking mainly about ui changes required	03:10
mgregsond	cehteh: OpenOffice is enormous.	03:10
cehteh	texlive is massive	03:10
cehteh	(when you install all bells and whistles)	03:11
uhsf	Pelikon's MorphPad is what the N900 keyboard should've been.	03:11
lcuk	uhsf, that morphpad is neat :) extremely innovative use of masking	03:12
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cehteh	anyone here likes packaging for maemo? ... i think i hack a notification light blinker on battery low later but i dont have interest in packaging it	03:13
cehteh	abi word is packaged too btw .. never used it	03:13
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cehteh	After this operation, 123MB of additional disk space will be used.	03:15
cehteh	EgS: You don't have enough free space in /var/cache/apt/archives/.	03:15
cehteh	... texlive	03:15
mgregsond	cehteh: That pissed me off when archives ran out of space.	03:16
mgregsond	cehteh: I don't mind packaging your shit up if you've got everything else done.	03:16
cehteh	thats what the app updater cares for .. using some other temp dir	03:17
Arkenoi	2go "crap" is way faster and works with non-native document formats way better	03:17
mgregsond	cehteh: Actually... the app updater ran out of space.	03:17
cehteh	heh	03:17
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mgregsond	cehteh: I had to work around it by updating from the command line and forcing it to cache in MyDocs.	03:17
cehteh	well the partitioning .. or rather mounts are fuba	03:18
mgregsond	cehteh: Totally.	03:18
mgregsond	cehteh: It feels like the disk layout and partitioning schemes were designed by an untrained ape on cocaine.	03:18
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cehteh	i saied that serveral times :P	03:19
mgregsond	cehteh: Do you by any chance know what package provides the messaging stack?	03:20
cehteh	messaging stack?	03:20
mgregsond	cehteh: dbus/telepathy/empathy/...	03:20
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cehteh	no	03:21
mmarc__	any other good console client available?	03:21
mgregsond	Ah, I'll look it up later..	03:21
cehteh	maybe all in 'mamemo5'	03:21
mgregsond	mmarc__: huh?	03:21
mgregsond	cehteh: This is a virtual for many others yes?	03:21
mmarc__	instead of Xterminal	03:21
cehteh	dunno	03:21
cehteh	mmarc__: not that i know, why?	03:21
mgregsond	mmarc__: Have you considered purchasing an actual computer?	03:21
cehteh	ssh :)	03:22
mgregsond	cehteh: That's my favourite.	03:22
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cehteh	well and the osso-xterm is ok when you have to work on the device .. whats the problem	03:22
mgregsond	mmarc__: Again, it's running X, you could probably get gnome-terminal running if you want.	03:22
mmarc__	cmon, guys, I justwant black background, I won't be blind before 50 years old watching white windows all the time!	03:23
cehteh	someone once wanted to package rxvt-unicode	03:23
mgregsond	cehteh: Epic. Any idea how big it wound up being?	03:23
cehteh	but i think any non hildonized terminal would be worse than the osso-xterm	03:23
cehteh	dunno	03:23
Arkenoi	unpacking easydebian image - almost 4 hours and still working	03:23
mgregsond	mmarc__: Hmm, interesting proposal.	03:24
cehteh	mmarc__: that can be configured	03:24
mgregsond	cehteh: In osso-xterm?	03:24
mgregsond	cehteh: How?	03:24
mmarc__	where?	03:25
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cehteh	font config	03:25
mgregsond	cehteh: Ah, one is bg one is fg?	03:25
cehteh	..	03:25
mgregsond	cehteh: They show up as unlabeled grey squares for me.	03:26
mgregsond	cehteh: Totally not clear what they do.	03:26
cehteh	oh come one	03:26
mgregsond	cehteh: I didn't test them out. ;)	03:26
mmarc__	for me too	03:26
mgregsond	mmarc__: Ok, so the left one is the fg, the right one is the bg.	03:27
mgregsond	mmarc__: Unless I've forgotten the outcome of my experiment and it's the other way around. ;)	03:27
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mmarc__	hey! It works! Cehteh, thanks, you know, what is behing that gray squares!	03:28
mmarc__	hm, I need a maemo happiness desktop applet	03:29
mmarc__	my eyes are saying thanks	03:29
mgregsond	cehteh: lol, alright fine, I should have tried them	03:29
mgregsond	cehteh: Still, UI fail for not making things immediately clear.	03:29
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mmarc__	also I have two technical questions	03:38
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mmarc__	1) is N900's ARM multicore?	03:38
mmarc__	2) what maemo apps benefit from dsp circuit?	03:39
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GeneralAntilles	Video playback	03:39
mmarc__	propiteary?	03:39
mmarc__	propietry?	03:39
mgregsond	mmarc__: I doubt that the processor is multicore.	03:40
cehteh	for some definition of multicore .. dunno if the other cores are arm .. its not SMP there is only one main core	03:40
GeneralAntilles	Well, there are several cores on the SoC	03:40
cehteh	the dsp, gpu are some cores and the broadband chipset itself is prolly 2-3 cores	03:41
mmarc__	i.e. is this video playback source closed	03:41
GeneralAntilles	Cellular is not on the OMAP, however.	03:41
cehteh	all are not available for direct programming, DSP to some extent iirc	03:41
GeneralAntilles	mmarc__, which part?	03:41
GeneralAntilles	mmarc__, the backend is MAFW	03:41
mmarc__	dsp part	03:41
GeneralAntilles	Which plugs into GStreamer	03:41
GeneralAntilles	Dunno if the DSP codec is open	03:41
GeneralAntilles	Depends on which video codec we're talking about, probably.	03:42
mmarc__	okay, anything else except video uses dsp?	03:42
cehteh	mplayer doesnt use the dsp for example	03:42
mmarc__	well, reasonable	03:42
GeneralAntilles	There's some various 3rd-party stuff	03:42
cehteh	the camera and some voice codecs for speech/telephony afaik	03:42
mmarc__	skype maybe?	03:43
GeneralAntilles	Camera has its own core.	03:43
GeneralAntilles	ISP	03:43
cehteh	really .. ok ... one core more	03:43
cehteh	mmarc__: generally speakin you can only access and programm on the main cpu	03:44
GeneralAntilles	cehteh, http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbuproductcontent.tsp?contentId=14649&navigationId=12643&templateId=6123	03:44
Arkenoi	i still miss "phone-as-separate-hardware-thing" approach from old communicators	03:44
cehteh	Arkenoi: it is	03:44
GeneralAntilles	Cellular chipset isn't in the OMAP.	03:44
cehteh	well and hosts the GPS	03:44
Arkenoi	well, we need a responsive UI to answer a call	03:45
cehteh	ah ok	03:45
Arkenoi	and it is not always possible while cpu is heavy loaded	03:45
mgregsond	Arkenoi: That needs to be fixed yes.	03:45
cehteh	yes all its io goes through the main os	03:45
mgregsond	Some of the apps or daemons generate high load.	03:45
cehteh	but actually i like it this way more .. i have already bad feeling about the gps in the broadband chipset	03:45
mgregsond	I've seen pulse spike up pretty badly.	03:45
sar3th	a propos pulse	03:46
sar3th	is it possible to configure pulse so that the left channel of the output is louder than the right one (for the headset)	03:46
sar3th	because my headset is borked, and i don't want to send it in yet ;)	03:46
cehteh	lol	03:47
cehteh	sure your ears arent borked?	03:47
GeneralAntilles	cehteh, GPS isn't is the cellular chipset is it?	03:47
cehteh	well it should be possible .. somewhere in the settings in /etc	03:47
GeneralAntilles	Cellular is Nokia, GPS is TI. . . .	03:47
sar3th	cehteh: yes	03:47
sar3th	to ensure, i switched the things you put in ear	03:47
sar3th	how do you call them >_>	03:48
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sar3th	well anyway, it's NOT just in my mind :P	03:48
cehteh	huh nokia makes its own chipsets? i thought thats ti too .. but i am quite sure that the gps is attached there .. dunno if that are just io connections to some rather dumb gps or its integrated in the chisept	03:48
cehteh	but it is not accessible directly from the main core	03:49
SpeedEvil	/*-----------------------------------------------------------------////////////////////////////////////////////////////////	03:49
SpeedEvil	-	03:49
sar3th	SpeedEvil: /flushq	03:50
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mmarc__	http://maemos.ru/2010/01/19/abiword-na-n900-word-dlya-maemo-os/	03:50
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, Nokia makes its own chipsets. ;)	03:51
GeneralAntilles	That's the piece of hardware Nokia is bringing to the MeeGo party.	03:52
sar3th	how about pulse audio help?	03:52
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* Arkenoi wishes there will be full dtg someday.		03:52
GeneralAntilles	Kernel sources point to a WiLink 6.0 or 7.0 solution for N900+1.	03:52
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mgregsond	GeneralAntilles: What's the plan for the MeeGo thing anyways?	03:53
GeneralAntilles	mgregsond, hell if I know. ;)	03:53
mgregsond	GeneralAntilles: One OS to suck on all platforms? ;)	03:54
* Xisdibik points at GeneralAntilles's horns. Yes... Hell... you do know!		03:54
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mmarc__	hey, why Maemo Extra reports Unable to find expected entry user/binary-armel/ ... malformed release file	03:57
mmarc__	?	03:57
mgregsond	mmarc__: What's the URL you fed in?	03:58
mmarc__	http://repository.maemo.org/extrasemI	03:58
mmarc__	http://repository.maemo.org/extras	03:58
mgregsond	mmarc__: And the other settings?	03:59
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Arkenoi	what is the size of the unpacked debian-m5-v3b.img.ext2 ? could anyone check please? i'd like to know how much is left..	03:59
mmarc__	oh, the components field was incorrect, my bad	04:00
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Pillum	i hate it when games are just designed for the us keyboard layout	04:03
javispedro	... and they don't have configurable bindings.	04:04
Pillum	yeah!	04:04
sar3th	yeah!	04:05
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Pillum	mmhhhh......I ♥ peanut butter	04:06
Pillum	its so delicious	04:06
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orbarron	hello all: I just downloaded osso-applet-screencalibration-l10n-zhhk --> is there a way to run this? and where is it installed?	04:17
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cehteh	orbarron: normally thats part of the settings .. that package above is only some localization for ot	04:17
cehteh	it	04:17
orbarron	so I am missing for setting apps...	04:18
* orbarron has one off environment		04:18
orbarron	is there a way to get the calibration app?	04:18
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cehteh	eh?	04:19
orbarron	cehteh: my environment does not have this calibration tool in settings. even if it did I am not sure I can access is since my touch is way off	04:19
mgregsond	orbarron: Have you restarted the app in question to get it to use the new settings?	04:20
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cehteh	orbarron: it should be on a stock device .. makes me wonder if its not there	04:20
* orbarron believes it should have it... but for some reason it is missing		04:21
* orbarron so wondering if it is possible to just get this app.		04:21
microlith	the calibration tool is under the settings app	04:22
* orbarron wonder if settings app is available?		04:22
uhsf	it's cool that nokia ovi music store is drm-free. one more + for me to appreciate my n900. now if they could sell .ogg and .flac i could even buy music online one day, who knows	04:24
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orbarron	how about this one: hildon-im-plugin-base-settings	04:25
cehteh	there is a music store?	04:25
mmarc_	After I set up user and root passwords, app manager now shows empty repos list, reporting in log the apt worker has exited. What might be the issue?	04:25
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sar3th	uhsf: i agree about the flac part :D	04:26
sar3th	and if the flac support was fixed, it'd be awesome, too	04:27
mmarc_	Oh, and niw it is ok, strange...	04:27
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KEROLiUKAS	http://pastehtml.com/view/5tk78lb.html is this page down or just me?	04:44
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sar3th	have the advanced music format support packages STILL not been fixed? D:	04:51
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trip0	anyone know if video chat works with skype on the\n900?	05:16
microlith	I think that's scheduled for the next big update	05:17
trip0	awesome	05:18
luke-jr	Skype should be banned from the internet :P	05:26
Xisdibik	luke-jr: nevar	05:29
luke-jr	Xisdibik: Skype sucks	05:29
Xisdibik	luke-jr: not for me	05:29
luke-jr	I meant objectively ;P	05:29
Xisdibik	;P	05:29
Xisdibik	without skype my mom and nephew wouldnt be able to webchat	05:29
luke-jr	why not?	05:30
Xisdibik	because my mom and my sister are totally not tech savvy enough to use something else?	05:30
luke-jr	why do you need to use Skype if you're not tech savvy?	05:30
Xisdibik	because its just a simple install thats very simple to use	05:30
Xisdibik	its also handy that you can call real telephones if need be	05:31
luke-jr	and they're too stupid to use Gizmo or Google Talk?	05:33
luke-jr	or any of the many other simple standards-compliant clients?	05:33
Xisdibik	Google Talk requires a gmail account	05:34
Xisdibik	which my mom and sister dont have	05:34
luke-jr	but can easily get	05:35
Xisdibik	Gizmo they dont know anything about	05:35
Xisdibik	also	05:35
luke-jr	same went for Skype before they learned about it	05:35
GAN900	Gizmo > Skype	05:35
Xisdibik	I personally feel skype's sound and video quality are good (given a good connection)	05:35
Xisdibik	I personally havnt used Gizmo, so i cant agree or disagree	05:36
Xisdibik	but given that i have about 180 people on my skype list	05:36
GAN900	It's Skype, but with open codecs. :P	05:36
Xisdibik	i cant give it up :p	05:36
Xisdibik	I'm the type of person that filled up their AIM account back when it had limits	05:36
zerojay	GAN900: As someone that's used both for years, Skype sounds MUCH better than Gizmo and has less latency.	05:39
zerojay	That said, I hate using it.	05:39
GAN900	zerojay, at the cost of your Freedom. eg	05:39
Xisdibik	Skype in linux has alot of issues though	05:39
Xisdibik	so if your comparing skype linux to gizmo that could be why	05:40
Xisdibik	alot of my skyping is from the windows version	05:40
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kimitake	Hi	07:41
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Venomrush	hi	07:43
kimitake	I have a question for Bugtracker location	07:43
kimitake	I just added XSBC-Bugtracker: to debian/control file and uploaded the package to auto builder	07:44
kimitake	pkg was built correctly but maemo.org/packages page still shows "Warning: This package does not have the required bugtracker link specified!"	07:45
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kimitake	OK, I found the solution.	08:01
kimitake	need to locate it after Standards-Version: (before Package: )	08:02
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timeless_mbp2	Corsac: it's supposed to be the NSS list, however ownership is stolen by another group inside nokia, it's possible they doctor the list	08:11
RST38h	Oh noooo, another media framework	08:13
* RST38h can't stop facepalming lately		08:14
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Corsac	timeless_mbp2: mhh, ok	08:49
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Stskeeps	morning	09:04
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Stskeeps	DocScrutinizer: ping	09:08
aspidites	Stskeeps: pong?	09:08
Stskeeps	you're not DS :P	09:08
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Corsac	timeless_mbp2: any idea where they are kept?	09:09
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timeless_mbp2	they're kept by 'maemosec-certman'	09:10
Corsac	hmhm, there are multiple cert8.db ><	09:11
timeless_mbp2	they aren't kept by gecko	09:12
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timeless_mbp2	they're maintained by maemosec-certman	09:12
timeless_mbp2	at least, in general	09:12
Corsac	in .mozilla/{fennec,rtcom,nokia-maps,microb}, in .modest and .osso	09:13
timeless_mbp2	osso/tutorial presumably	09:13
timeless_mbp2	fennec is a gecko; nokia-maps, microb, tutorial are microb consumers	09:14
Corsac	except the microb and fennec ones, they are identical	09:14
Corsac	so I guess maemosec-certman copies them there	09:14
timeless_mbp2	err	09:14
timeless_mbp2	that's not how it's supposed to work	09:15
Corsac	oh?	09:15
Corsac	(I mean, when they are modified)	09:15
timeless_mbp2	iirc cert8 is basically your private add certs	09:15
Corsac	ha yes maybe	09:15
timeless_mbp2	presumably you haven't added any to fennec	09:15
timeless_mbp2	so you're comparing a pair of empties	09:15
Corsac	how is called the CA file then?	09:15
timeless_mbp2	as i said, it's not stored in microb, it's managed by maemosec-certman	09:16
timeless_mbp2	and if you don't pay attention, i will slap you silly	09:16
timeless_mbp2	rtcom and modest use nss directly	09:16
Corsac	yeah but nss uses a cache anyway	09:16
* tybollt hides :(		09:17
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Corsac	and it seems to use a different cache for every apps	09:17
Corsac	(like in the desktop though)	09:17
timeless_mbp2	not a cache...	09:17
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Corsac	well, a private copy	09:18
Corsac	since the original one comes directly from nss sources, afair	09:18
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timeless_mbp2	well, err, that's totally not how it works	09:18
timeless_mbp2	but you're free to think about it wrongly if you like :)	09:18
Corsac	I'm kind-of asking you how it works :)	09:18
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timeless_mbp2	nss sources include sources for a library that provides certificates	09:19
timeless_mbp2	your app can choose not to ship that library	09:19
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timeless_mbp2	or you can replace it later	09:19
timeless_mbp2	but as it's a library, it's readonly	09:19
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timeless_mbp2	so other changes are stored elsewhere	09:19
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timeless_mbp2	microb doesn't ship that library	09:19
timeless_mbp2	instead it talks to maemosec-certman	09:19
timeless_mbp2	which means you should stop asking me	09:19
timeless_mbp2	and start asking it	09:19
timeless_mbp2	is that unclear?	09:20
timeless_mbp2	i'm only responsible for gecko/upstream	09:20
* tybollt hiding under desk now... :-(		09:20
Corsac	timeless_mbp2: ok, thanks	09:20
* Corsac looks at tybollt		09:20
timeless_mbp2	maemosec-certman is not an upstream component, which should be fairly obvious...	09:20
Corsac	maemosec-certman-common-ca looks like a good candidate	09:21
timeless_mbp2	that's roughly the nss database repackaged :)	09:21
timeless_mbp2	plus whatever totally unapproved changes they may have made :/	09:21
timeless_mbp2	btw, what are you actually trying to do?	09:21
timeless_mbp2	certificates are managed in the control panel	09:22
Corsac	timeless_mbp2: get the original list of CA so I can open a bug asking for inclusion of the missing one(s)	09:22
Corsac	timeless_mbp2: I noticed some CA (which are in nss) weren't in certman	09:22
Corsac	so I had to add them	09:22
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timeless_mbp2	ah	09:24
timeless_mbp2	well, don't really do that	09:25
timeless_mbp2	just find the latest bug in bmo that updated the nss database	09:25
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timeless_mbp2	and file a bug in bugs.maemo asking them to update to match that update	09:25
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timeless_mbp2	why should you have to do the homework?	09:25
timeless_mbp2	the database was imported many months ago, and like most things is almost certainly not maintained	09:25
timeless_mbp2	anyway, the guy who owns maemosec-certman actually is responsive in bugs.maemo	09:27
timeless_mbp2	he's not a bad guy, he just has a sucky job	09:27
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Corsac	timeless_mbp2: seems that there are independant bugs in b.moz.o for each CA inclusion, so it might just be best to just ask for a sync to the latest version	09:31
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timeless_mbp2	isn't that what i said?	09:32
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Corsac	well, you said to look for a bug in bmo, which won't exist	09:33
timeless_mbp2	bmo=bugzilla.mozilla.org	09:33
timeless_mbp2	since the file is atomic for a branch, and there are bugs which control all changes to the vcs	09:33
timeless_mbp2	there will be one bug which was the last bug to trigger an update to that file	09:34
timeless_mbp2	probably the best thing about maemo=>meego is that bmo will be less ambiguous, because bugs.maemo will become bmc :)	09:34
Corsac	:)	09:35
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Corsac	grmbl, there's no maemosec product?	09:40
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pupnik_	"OMweather requires reboot" what kind of evil crap is that?	09:56
tybollt	heh yeah I raised an eyebrow about that as well	09:59
swc\|666	evilness	09:59
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swc\|666	"Please reboot to complete rootkit initialization" is the one that got me concerned	10:00
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tybollt	swc\|666: ;)	10:00
swc\|666	:p	10:00
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swc\|666	imean srsly.. who really does code audits / QA for devel/testing type apps u know ;)	10:01
swc\|666	especially for the poor fools on xda-devs	10:01
tybollt	but seriously now, of course a weather application needs a kernel module to raise privs and to accept incoming connections on low ports and to delete random fileson your FS etc	10:01
timeless_mbp2	swc\|666: isn't that your job? :)	10:01
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swc\|666	</rant> ;)	10:02
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lucent	swc\|666: oh the OMWeather messages ?	10:02
lucent	that struck me as totally freaky weird.	10:02
lucent	it even comes up with a "You Must Check This Box to Agree"	10:02
swc\|666	lucent, nono, i was just extrapolating mindlessly on the OMWeather issue	10:02
lucent	oh yeah	10:03
swc\|666	in that ballpark*	10:03
lucent	I'm serious about my experience though, it asked me to confirm that I would swear on a bible to reboot after install	10:03
lucent	something like this	10:03
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lucent	what could it possibly need that requires a reboot?	10:03
swc\|666	point being most if not 99.9% of smartphone users really don't take into consideration malware	10:03
tybollt	shrug	10:03
tybollt	the installer has the "Yeah, right." box for agreeing to install stuff... that's so utterly... ugh blasphemy :)	10:04
swc\|666	heh	10:05
swc\|666	and (i'm lazy) who wrote OMWeather btw?	10:05
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tybollt	"wrote"? it is updated like each and every day	10:05
swc\|666	heh	10:06
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pupnik_	timeless_mbp2: is there a microb hack or config to open a link in a background window (not taking focus)? That way i could keep reading while the new thing loads...	10:23
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timeless_mbp2	pupnik_: afaiu the window manager sucks	10:24
swc\|666	+1	10:25
timeless_mbp2	i've recently triggered similar issues from a number of other apps	10:25
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timeless_mbp2	so at this point, i'm going to say that even if we bothered to try, the window manager would thwart us	10:25
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pupnik_	gotcha, thanks	10:25
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* timeless_mbp2 tries to turn on an n900		10:26
* swc\|666 tries to buy an n1000		10:26
timeless_mbp2	pupnik_: anyway, the public bug says that there's progress on something	10:26
pupnik_	most annoying in that department is app manager stealing focus from xterm / irssi after "application successfully installed". i would prefer to only be notified if application was NOT successfully installed.	10:27
timeless_mbp2	that's nothing :)	10:27
jaska	t1000	10:27
timeless_mbp2	try using app manager's restore applications feature	10:27
tybollt	I don't agree w/ tat	10:27
timeless_mbp2	it bothers me many many many times	10:27
timeless_mbp2	i can't go out for coffee	10:27
tybollt	timeless_mbp2: it ha one?	10:28
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timeless_mbp2	tybollt: open backup, create a backup, only check 'application list' or whatever	10:28
timeless_mbp2	then restore that backup	10:28
tybollt	ah ok	10:28
timeless_mbp2	then open application manager	10:28
timeless_mbp2	there's an extra menu for it	10:28
timeless_mbp2	s/menu/menu item/	10:28
infobot	timeless_mbp2 meant: there's an extra menu item for it	10:28
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timeless_mbp2	couldn't retrieve ip address from network. wep key may be wrong. select network?	10:29
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tybollt	'may'?	10:30
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timeless_mbp2	tybollt: well, i don't think i'm using 'wep'	10:30
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timeless_mbp2	so "that message may be totally confused"	10:30
timeless_mbp2	the fact that it didn't tell me _which_ network it had issues w/ didn't help matters	10:30
* timeless_mbp2 ponders		10:31
timeless_mbp2	Last sync ... Failed	10:31
timeless_mbp2	… Invalid Exchange Server host address	10:31
timeless_mbp2	in English: DNS lookup failed	10:31
timeless_mbp2	can someone please suggest a replacement for 'Invalid....' ?	10:31
tybollt	what is wrong with "DNS lookup failed"?	10:32
marmoute	unknown	10:32
tybollt	or	10:32
timeless_mbp2	tybollt: well	10:33
tybollt	"Couldn't resolve hostname"	10:33
tybollt	or	10:33
timeless_mbp2	you're assuming someone configured a hostname	10:33
tybollt	"You're a user so I hate you!"	10:33
timeless_mbp2	it's possible i wrote '126.0.0.1'	10:33
timeless_mbp2	instead of '127.0.0.1'	10:33
tybollt	(granted the last one is probably lesser appropriate?)	10:33
timeless_mbp2	i'll have to check to see if that triggers this error	10:33
pyhimys	Cannot connect to 'foo.bar.baz';	10:33
timeless_mbp2	the problem is that as a user...	10:33
* timeless_mbp2 rummages around trying to find a 'user' hat		10:34
tybollt	timless: "Couldn't resolve hostname"	10:34
* timeless_mbp2 is sure there's one somewhere		10:34
timeless_mbp2	… as a user … i don't know what other errors are available	10:34
marmoute	timeless_mbp2: one the head of you voodoo dolls maybe ?	10:35
timeless_mbp2	tybollt: i think 'Couldn't find Exchange Server' might work	10:35
timeless_mbp2	marmoute: probably buried in someone else's closet	10:35
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tybollt	timeless_mbp2: fair enough, me likey	10:35
* timeless_mbp2 cries		10:37
timeless_mbp2	my .ssh directory isn't here	10:37
* timeless_mbp2 wonders where it is		10:37
tybollt	...	10:37
swc\|666	exchange ftfl	10:38
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* timeless_mbp2 tries to figure out what the heck a syncing status of 'Stopped' means		10:41
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timeless_mbp2	ok	10:42
timeless_mbp2	afaict this message is reserved for cases where dns lookups fail	10:42
* johnx wants to stab malware writers ...		10:43
* swc\|666 wants to stab facebook users		10:43
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johnx	in terms of negative social impact on the internet, I think virus writers still win ;)	10:45
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lucent	"old school" virus writers tended to their own clique	10:47
crashanddie	spam	10:47
lucent	it was anti-social but it wasn't loner stuff	10:47
crashanddie	Malware makes you visit websites, discover online-communities to erradicate the issue	10:48
crashanddie	Nobody gets together to show off their spam	10:48
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johnx	I'm thinking more the effect it has that casual internet users can never know what to trust	10:48
crashanddie	There are no spam-boards, where spammers give each other tips and tricks	10:48
lucent	o_O	10:48
johnx	crashanddie, spamusement.com	10:48
lucent	are you trolling?	10:48
auenf	some malware also claims to be virus/spyware scanners that find loads of crap to try and get money out of you	10:48
crashanddie	lucent: who are you asking?	10:49
tybollt	there are however plenty enough of corporate interest to backup spam	10:49
lucent	spam creators have their own exclusive club of message boards for techniques	10:49
johnx	auenf, and that's exactly what I spent the last couple hours digging off my dad's computer ...	10:49
lucent	it's the opposite of what you said now	10:49
auenf	johnx, malwarebytes is your friend	10:49
auenf	as is the bleepingcomputer site	10:49
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auenf	johnx, which name did it go by this time?	10:50
johnx	auenf, the thing actually hooked into the windows .exe loader, preventing malwarebytes from loading	10:50
crashanddie	lucent: oh really? Never came across one. However often came across "virus author" boards (well, more sk than anything else, come to think of it)	10:50
crashanddie	lucent: my bad then	10:50
auenf	some of them are full of typo's ;)	10:50
johnx	auenf, it's the new(ish) "antivirus 2010 XP"	10:50
crashanddie	lucent: I would never have thought that spammers (who inherently are trying to sell crap, thus don't like competition) would exchange tips and provide how-tos	10:51
auenf	johnx, yea, blocks exe's and similar from loading (not .com) and a proxy so if you surf anywhere, you goto the 'scanners' results only	10:51
lucent	crashanddie: there's only illegal and grey-market attempts at monetizing (what I refer to as "old school") virus writing plans	10:51
lucent	crashanddie: there's implicitly legal (Thanks CAN-SPAM act!) efforts to make a buck off spam	10:51
lucent	I mean, follow the money is what I'm saying here.	10:51
johnx	auenf, yeah, and I'll be the first to admit, dealing with windows viruses and malware is not my specialty	10:51
johnx	in this case, command.com was my friend :D	10:51
auenf	http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/virus-removal/remove-antivirus-2010	10:52
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tybollt	it is a long standing known fact that virus writers are being financed by the anti-viiri companies	10:52
edheldil	is it?	10:52
lucent	tybollt: I've seen proof of this too	10:52
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auenf	anyway, time for me to go out...	10:53
tybollt	lucent: not surprising	10:53
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johnx	I wouldn't totally discount it, but I have a feeling it's through a million layers of abstraction (aka money laundering)	10:53
johnx	'later auenf	10:53
tybollt	johnx: of course	10:53
edheldil	lucent: any verifiable sources for that claim? And I am not speaking about some chinese AV shops	10:53
lucent	virus writer groups back-in-the-day where 3 of the dozen core writers end up in jail, one or two suddenly have indemity and new jobs at security firms that suddenly acquire anti-virus programming shops	10:53
tybollt	johnx: also number accounts in switzerland	10:53
johnx	I long for the mid-90's when viruses were 1) pranks or 2) movie plots	10:54
lucent	edheldil: I've heard about this from some folks I know personally that used to be in the "scene", that's not exactly verifiable info though	10:54
lucent	edheldil: I've also seen articles in print which I don't have the motivation to go find for you, but I think they're not difficult to find if you are that curious	10:55
tybollt	anyway	10:55
edheldil	I think that, human personality being what it is, there's enough coders writing virii for free	10:55
tybollt	launching these theories makes people call you "tinfoil-hat"	10:55
tybollt	so...	10:55
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Shrik3	botnets are the way virus writers earn nowadays	10:56
lucent	the overwhelming majority (in my observation and friendship with said folks) is that virus writers do it for a psychological need to be a more clever bastard than anyone has ever been before them.	10:56
Shrik3	very few viruses are satisfied with an ambulance running across the screen like in the old days	10:56
Shrik3	you need to build a botnet and start selling it for ddos attacks and spamming	10:57
lucent	...and they accomplish that without ever releasing their virus to the wild, for the most part.	10:57
lucent	the botnet concept has really changed the scene	10:57
edheldil	lucent: I doubt that. That would not give the satisfaction that it REally Works (tm)	10:57
lucent	edheldil: doesn't have to work, just needs to be more clever than anything else out there.	10:58
edheldil	botnets are different thing, of course :)	10:58
tybollt	it's not really	10:58
tybollt	it's all based on how easily exploitable windows is	10:58
lucent	botnet brought corporate interest	10:58
edheldil	exactly	10:59
edheldil	they are real weapons of mass destruction	10:59
johnx	tybollt, nah, more based on how easily exploitable humans are	10:59
lucent	tybollt: if I may counter-point, I'm in the camp of thinking as johnx says, windows is !@#$ irrelevent	11:00
tybollt	I agree entirely	11:00
lucent	in fact I look at windows as a hinderance on the spread of effective malware	11:00
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edheldil	lucent: nah, they are a nice monoculture waiting to be swept with one bug.	11:01
lucent	no objections there ;)	11:01
edheldil	enhanced with the admin privs most users have	11:01
johnx	though really those aren't necessary	11:02
edheldil	no, but help to hide the malware in computer	11:02
johnx	the most common one I've seen lately is the "fake AV" deal, where all it needs to do is social engineer you into giving away your credit card. no admin privileges needed there	11:02
johnx	so it runs a systray applet and writes to HKEY_CURRENT_USER to put a hook in preventing .exe's it doesn't like from running	11:03
edheldil	they also install keyloggers etc., though	11:03
johnx	pretty sure that part of the registry doesn't need admin privileges... (though I'm honestly [blessedly] not an expert on Windows)	11:04
edheldil	is not it what normal AVs do as well? :-)	11:04
johnx	heh. true enough	11:04
lucent	johnx: I used to write from Win32 API calls and stuff, which bafflingly are callable from within Microsoft Excel's macro editor...	11:05
johnx	the thing that depresses me is that the most innocent and trusting people are the ones who need to become paranoid and constantly doubt themselves	11:05
lucent	johnx: write NOPs to the password check routine insta-admin	11:05
lucent	from visual basic script!	11:05
johnx	I wouldn't be surprised if my dad had gotten this from a document sent to him by a colleague	11:06
lucent	I mean you can do anything. It's just like any OS out there, even Linux	11:06
lucent	or Maemo	11:06
johnx	and I really don't see any good solutions ...	11:07
lucent	WINE is an interesting approach	11:07
edheldil	?	11:07
lucent	though I've seen devs joke about virus compatibility as a goal	11:07
johnx	to getting windows viruses working on linux? :P	11:07
lucent	yah it is only a joke that WINE will eventually be complete enough that the problem of malware will need to be addressed	11:08
edheldil	you are aware that windows apps running under linux can execute linux syscalls, right?	11:08
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lucent	edheldil: sure	11:10
marmoute	edheldil: with priviliedge ?	11:10
edheldil	with the privileges the wine is running	11:11
lucent	the focus of the jest is on common made-for-windows native malware	11:11
johnx	sooo, what's the answer here? how do we fix the world without taking the iphone approach?	11:11
lucent	until made-for-WINE malware becomes commonplace, ...	11:11
lucent	johnx: sign the jesus out of everything with crypto	11:12
johnx	lucent, how does the end-user know who to trust?	11:12
edheldil	and I have heard about some "spam-everybody-in-addressbook" malware accidentally executed under wine years ago	11:12
lucent	and publicly shame people when they suck and make mistakes	11:12
lucent	johnx: tribunals! and executions	11:12
johnx	the end users or the virus writers?	11:12
edheldil	nuclear weapons ;-)	11:13
lucent	I recommend 3 days in the stocks for forwarding email including my address admidst hundreds of others in the CC field	11:13
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lucent	along with a twice-daily recietal of the origin of Blind Carbon Copy and its uses	11:13
lcuk	i would rather not get junk mail like that ;)	11:14
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johnx	so yeah, no good answers, huh?	11:15
johnx	c'mon, where are my simple answers to complex questions? :D	11:15
nid0	whats even worse is when dumbasses on that cc list start using reply-to-all for their inane discussions about the inane original email	11:15
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lucent	johnx: you suppose I am joking about the executions...	11:15
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johnx	lucent, I don't think that really solves my complaint about "malware makes innocent/trusting users into paranoids"	11:16
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lucent	johnx: malware is based on demand, believe it or not malware exists because the public at large believes it exists and expects it	11:17
lucent	the existance of crap that gets in your way has become a "norm" for the average user that must grudgingly interact with their many hundred dollar machine	11:18
johnx	I'd like to politely disagree	11:18
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lucent	if it works perfectly then they will find flaws that don't exist.	11:18
lucent	I've seen this in action. What's your counter-point?	11:18
johnx	only empirical evidence	11:18
ssvb	tybollt: having worked for an antivirus company, I must say that there is an overwhelming amount of viruses and malware done by bad guys already so that it makes no sense to 'finance' or 'encourage' those bad guys even theoretically	11:19
edheldil	malware exists because there is incentive in writing it. More now when the incentive is financial	11:19
johnx	I admit, I've met some very "needy" users, who are never happy	11:19
lucent	ssvb: only if the malware disables your competitor's product from operation ?	11:19
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johnx	but I don't think anyone wants this kind of uncertainty in their day-to-day computing experience	11:19
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lucent	johnx: loosely, I've held 30-40 clients in my past experience as a small business and home user computer technician	11:20
lucent	not for any major firm like Geek Squad, this is me and my friends who are in business together	11:21
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johnx	and your clients asked how they could ensure a constant supply of malware?	11:22
lucent	at least HALF (definitely more but I don't have an exact figure) expect that interaction with a computer will lead to some kind of failure that impedes their work flow, and they fail to mention it because "everyone has this kind of problem, right? virus?"	11:22
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MOUD	Hey all	11:23
johnx	that's a problem of expectations	11:23
johnx	hey MOUD	11:23
nid0	in fairness half of the "finding flaws that dont exist" (probably way more than half, in fact) is simply down to "i dont know how to use this properly so will assume it's broken" which is better than admitting their own limitations.	11:23
ssvb	lucent: this also does not stand ground, malware writers try to disable all the popular antiviruses in one way or another without discriminating anyone :)	11:23
lucent	ssvb: :)	11:23
johnx	lucent, people used to expect that cars would break down on a regular basis. heck, people used to be ok with taking months of enduring scurvy to cross the pacific	11:23
MOUD	I never used Voice SMS, is it possible on N900? If so, how do I do it?	11:23
edheldil	nid0: if the user interface is unintuitive, you could argue it IS broken :)	11:24
lucent	MOUD: not familiar with voice SMS	11:24
MOUD	hello johnx	11:24
nid0	pebkac isnt limited to unintuitive interfaces	11:24
johnx	MOUD, is that like sending some kind of voice recording?	11:24
MOUD	lucent: no problem, maybe someone else is :)	11:24
lucent	MOUD: is that multi-media SMS with sound?	11:24
MOUD	johnx,. lucent: I think so	11:24
nid0	people send messages these days with voice recordings?	11:25
johnx	then the answer is "probably it's not supported officially right now" on the N900	11:25
nid0	.....kind of like a phone call but slower?	11:26
MOUD	nid0: It can be sent from mobile to mobile, or email, or landline	11:27
lucent	nid0: that is similar to my reaction	11:27
nid0	well other than the "to email" bit, you know you can make phone calls from mobile to mobile, or landline, right?	11:27
_\|Nix\|_	timeless_mbp2: You around?	11:28
lucent	if the content of your Voice SMS is going to be "DELIVER THE MONEY OR THE _____ DIES"	11:28
lucent	I might suggest other methods.	11:28
MOUD	Here's a definition for voice sms (from a website):	11:28
MOUD	Voice SMS is, simply put, the ability to leave a voice message for someone without	11:28
MOUD	ringing their handset. It’s similar to SMS and MMS in that it involves one-way	11:28
MOUD	communication. It’s similar to voicemail in that a voice message is sent for someone	11:28
MOUD	to hear when they want to access it, but it’s different in that it’s an intentional voice	11:28
MOUD	message.	11:28
MOUD	sorry, didn't mean to.	11:28
RST38h	Hehe, someone else is finally getting the idea: http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/item/11221_The_application_store_dilema_o.php	11:29
RST38h	A catharsis of sorts=)	11:29
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nid0	well, if thats what you want to do as a workaround you could always record your clip and email it to the recipient	11:29
johnx	MOUD, they're just giving you a hard time. The answer is that a 3rd party app called fmms is probably the closest thing we have. It's the only way to send MMS at all right now.	11:29
nid0	or install fmms and use that, but it's in devel	11:29
MOUD	I heard that fmms can only send images but I'll give a try	11:30
RST38h	moo johnx	11:30
johnx	m00f RST38h	11:30
johnx	interesting article. saw it on planet but skipped it over	11:30
* johnx reads		11:30
zaheerm	If you’re an Android dev and you have an app in the Market with at least 3.5 stars across 5,000 downloads, Google will soon be sending out a new phone as part of its “Device Seeding Program.”	11:30
MOUD	nid0: I want to try from my mobile to a landline	11:31
lucent	MOUD: similar function can be had by using Google Voice linked to your mobile number	11:31
nid0	there are landlines that can receive mms's?	11:31
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nid0	my landline phone can send/receive texts, but I wouldnt have thought any would be complex enough to process mms's..	11:31
RST38h	johnx: This stuff has been known since Handango times	11:31
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johnx	ah, the palm days :)	11:32
MOUD	lucent: yes, I just read that while googling. I'll try later with a friend of mine, both of us have n900	11:32
RST38h	johnx: So, not sure why so many people bought into all the hype, for so long	11:32
johnx	RST38h, all that's old is new again :)	11:32
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lucent	MOUD: wish I could comment by experience - my mobile 'net connection is only 2.5G (EDGE)	11:32
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lucent	no 3G for Jackson WY	11:32
lucent	iPod users love to brag about their 3G with AT&T	11:33
tybollt	ipod now has a 3G radio???	11:33
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lucent	whatever it's called, iPhone	11:34
MOUD	lucent: no problem. I also heard that Voice SMS is somewhat cheaper than MMS (depending where you live) so I wanted to give a try.	11:34
johnx	tybollt, yup. they call it the "iphone" but it'll never take off. trust me	11:34
lucent	I suffer from that use of the first big concept to label all concepts thereafter	11:34
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johnx	then you should be calling it the MPman :D	11:35
tybollt	johnx: then surely you ought to be calling it "the newton" :)	11:37
johnx	or windows for pen computers? :)	11:39
johnx	s/ters/ting/	11:40
infobot	johnx meant: or windows for pen computing? :)	11:40
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tybollt	does the n900 support RNDIS?	11:48
mgedmin	what's that?	11:49
Stskeeps	yes, g_ether	11:49
* mgedmin idly remarks that g_ether.ko doesn't exist on a N900, but g_nokia.ko provides USB network connectivity		11:50
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wazd_e63	Heya maemo	12:12
alterego	IS there a linux desktop way of installing maps to the map cache?	12:13
Stskeeps	jaffa had a guide?	12:14
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Stskeeps	lo wazd_e63	12:14
alterego	I'll havea look.	12:14
alterego	Ah, perfect, thanks Stskeeps :)	12:15
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Khertan	Helloall!	12:20
Khertan	VectorMine 1.0.5 is waiting yout	12:21
Khertan	your vote in extras-testing	12:21
alterego	What does it do? :P	12:21
pupnik_	fun asteroids style game	12:22
Khertan	http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_non-free_armel/vectormine/1.0.5-1/	12:22
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Khertan	alterego_ : it s a clone of MineStorm for Vet	12:23
Khertan	alterego_ : it s a clone of MineStorm for Vectrex	12:23
m33go	hi people i need a help. i want to create a *.sh tah run this command line ""root	12:23
pupnik_	Khertan: what did you change?	12:23
Khertan	fix icon bug	12:23
Khertan	add sound off option	12:24
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Khertan	and reduce sound of thruster	12:24
m33go	hi people i need a help. i want to create a *.sh tah run this command line >> root cd /media/mmc1/ export http_proxy=10.128.201.76:80 wget -c -r link	12:24
lucent	vector monitor game emulations never look quite like they should on LCD	12:24
m33go	can you help me?	12:24
* lucent notes that's an opinion only		12:24
Khertan	lucent : yep of course ... but VectorMine have color :) no need to put sticker on your n900 screen	12:25
lucent	haha	12:25
pupnik_	the high dpi on N900 makes it very close. you want brighter corners for overlap "d flickering?	12:25
m33go	can you help me???? thanks	12:25
Khertan	lucent : yep i haven t add flickering option too	12:26
m33go	hi people i need a help. i want to create a *.sh tah run this command line >> root cd /media/mmc1/ export http_proxy=10.128.201.76:80 wget -c -r link	12:26
pupnik_	m33go: why use root?	12:26
m33go	root? its the same without it	12:27
m33go	but i need a sh script	12:27
pupnik_	i havent used wget with http proxy, but just make the script executeable and take $1 or $@ for cmdline param	12:30
m33go	example?	12:30
m33go	make an example i dont know nothing bout sh	12:31
lindi-	wget -r as root sounds scary :)	12:31
lucent	I found this video helpful to explain what MineStorm is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbGRkdHPqlc	12:31
lindi-	http://iki.fi/lindi/wgettrap.poc is an old proof-of-concept against wget -r	12:32
m33go	people.... i just want to create a script that works like this cd /media/mmc1/ export http_proxy= #insert a valid proxy format PROXY:PORT and press enter	12:34
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m33go	people.... i just want to create a script that works like this cd /media/mmc1/ export http_proxy= #insert a valid proxy format PROXY:PORT and press enter... wget -c -r #insert a valid url link and press enter... no more	12:35
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pupnik_	wasnt there a way to specify detination dir with wget -o /media/mmcq/bla ?	12:35
cehteh	whats the problem?	12:35
m33go	the problem is that i dont know sh script	12:35
pupnik_	i think you want to look at && to seperate multiple commands m33go	12:35
pupnik_	cd /foo && do_something	12:36
m33go	i dont know nothing about sh scripts	12:36
pupnik_	i dont know enough to give an error free line	12:37
m33go	can u help me to create a sh file?	12:37
villager	sh script is easy... you already know the commands you want to run (cd, export, wget), put them into a file, voila, you got a sh script	12:37
m33go	villager.... it doesnt work	12:38
m33go	i did it	12:38
villager	did you make it executable?	12:38
m33go	i made it like .sh	12:38
villager	actually executable might not work without the shebang... alternatively, you can start it by typing "sh yourscript.sh"	12:38
pupnik_	chmod u+x script.sh	12:38
m33go	when i digit ./name.sh it makes errors	12:38
m33go	umm ok	12:39
m33go	i'll try again	12:39
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pupnik_	and seperate commands with newlines or &&	12:39
villager	"sh ./yourscript.sh" perhaps	12:39
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m33go	what can i use to make understand to choose a dir or not?	12:40
m33go	a command line like if.... or.... then...	12:40
villager	there's one, but you probably need to login to a real linux to see the docs	12:41
pupnik_	bleh. off 2 hospital - ttyl	12:41
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m33go	example.... #press 1 to download on MMC press 2 to downllad on MyDocs press 3 to make it custom...	12:42
m33go	how can i make a command line like that?	12:42
villager	that is more advanced shell programming I guess	12:42
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villager	it can be done but you have to learn a bunch of commands and how to use them together	12:43
m33go	my god.....	12:43
m33go	too hard to study?	12:43
villager	not really, but you might spend a few hours on it	12:44
villager	if you're a total newbie	12:44
m33go	:) thanks a lot i'm a new new newbie	12:44
m33go	very new hahahaha :D	12:44
villager	you might want to find examples	12:45
m33go	but i'm scary about variables	12:45
m33go	it's too hard	12:45
m33go	i hate variables my god	12:46
villager	you probably won't be able to do it without variables	12:46
villager	variables aren't that hard anyway	12:46
villager	they're convenient	12:47
m33go	i know. but i dont know how to calculate a range of bytes to allocate on it	12:48
villager	the user's response would probably go into a variable, then your if or case statements would check that variable	12:48
m33go	this is too hard for me.	12:48
villager	this isn't C... you don't need to allocate a range of bytes for variables in sh	12:48
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m33go	really?	12:49
m33go	:D	12:49
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m33go	thank u soo much	12:51
m33go	have a nice day people	12:51
m33go	thanks for helping me	12:51
tank-man	check out perl after bash :)	12:52
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corecode	anybody have a trick to switch IM accounts to "away" after some time?	13:10
MiXu-	That would be nice.	13:11
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MiXu-	Or on second thought... You're always carrying the N900 around anyway, right?	13:12
MiXu-	So technically you're not away :)	13:12
corecode	at night i am away	13:12
MiXu-	Oooh, I misnunderstood you then	13:13
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MiXu-	I thought you meant a timeout	13:13
corecode	yea, something	13:14
corecode	i dunno	13:14
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corecode	maybe also a combination	13:14
ptl	stratagus post was removed from talk.maemo.org??	13:14
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cehteh	corecode: i had some idea about a daemon which does intelligent profile switching and xorAxAx started implementing it ... dwimd	13:17
corecode	dwimd?	13:17
cehteh	check it out, it basically works iirc, had no time try yet	13:17
Khertan	http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_non-free_armel/vectormine/1.0.5-1/ <--- still require your vote !	13:17
xorAxAx	the environment sensing gestalt optimizer	13:17
xorAxAx	its in extras-devel, corecode	13:17
cehteh	hi xorAxAx	13:17
xorAxAx	hi cehteh	13:18
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corecode	what is vectormine?	13:19
cehteh	game?	13:20
corecode	bah	13:20
cehteh	hehe	13:20
corecode	what's up with people and games	13:20
cehteh	yeah .. i want serious apps	13:20
cehteh	well .. emacs works :P	13:20
corecode	app manager doesn't show down-pinned apps?	13:21
corecode	meh.	13:21
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cehteh	instead my todays hack is tagged dangerous, not useful -- pfft n00bs	13:21
corecode	which hack	13:22
SpeedEvil	todays hack?	13:22
corecode	and where do you publish them	13:22
corecode	and now, dwimd?	13:23
corecode	how do i use it	13:23
corecode	there is no man command	13:23
cehteh	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=46363	13:23
cehteh	i admit its really a hack, but works	13:23
SpeedEvil	Anyone used the debian chroot thingy?	13:24
SpeedEvil	how do I get keyb working in lxde	13:24
Hoxzer	I guews the eternal loop isn't very good for battery	13:25
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corecode	why?	13:25
SpeedEvil	It only loops once per dbus event	13:25
corecode	once per captured event	13:25
corecode	oh course dbus will itself process many events	13:25
corecode	xorAxAx: any docs available?	13:26
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xorAxAx	corecode: yes, the README file	13:26
xorAxAx	corecode: which is under /etc/dwimd	13:26
SpeedEvil	cehteh: I'd like a noise.	13:26
SpeedEvil	cehteh: an earth-shattering kaboom by preference.	13:27
xorAxAx	alternatively, you can read it here: http://hg.alexanderweb.de/dwimd-main/file/7d806ddfbaa9/README.txt	13:27
SpeedEvil	cehteh: but a plaintive beep would work too	13:27
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SpeedEvil	And yes, I could trivially add that.	13:27
cehteh	SpeedEvil: i dont understand why there is no difference between annoying systems sounds and important things	13:27
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cehteh	SpeedEvil: it beeps when you turn system sounds on	13:27
cehteh	in profile	13:27
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cehteh	bit then it makes swooosh, wiiimp, brrrrzz, ggrlgl ... and such noises too	13:28
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cehteh	i hate that	13:28
DocScrutinizer	hehe	13:30
corecode	xorAxAx: do you also have a problem that the wifi doesn't automatically switch to eduroam?	13:31
xorAxAx	corecode: yes	13:31
xorAxAx	corecode: also it cannot switch because it needs a cert passphrase	13:32
corecode	oh?	13:32
xorAxAx	but if i remove the passphrase, the cert is invalid	13:32
corecode	i don't need that here	13:32
xorAxAx	(in my case)	13:32
corecode	on_stand?	13:32
corecode	haha	13:32
corecode	cute!	13:32
xorAxAx	yeah, i like that rule :-)	13:32
corecode	thanks, that's a clever thing	13:32
xorAxAx	presentation mode	13:32
MiXu-	Hmm. Is there a way to change internet connectivity on N900 to sort of "on demand, but disable when no traffic"?	13:32
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corecode	why would you vote for silent at uni?	13:33
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MiXu-	So that it would connect automatically to check email, and whatnot, but would turn internet connection off afterwards.	13:33
corecode	is there access to the proximity sensor?	13:33
xorAxAx	corecode: because there are lectures and meetings running	13:33
DocScrutinizer	MiXu-: There's no such thing like "on demand"	13:33
xorAxAx	corecode: i havent written a proximity sensor yet, no. but feel free :)	13:33
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MiXu-	DocScrutinizer: Hmm. That's a bit disappointing, since symbian phones can do it.	13:33
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corecode	vibration obviously only makes sense in the pocket	13:34
MiXu-	And it has a significant effect on the battery life	13:34
DocScrutinizer	MiXu-: please read chan logs. We had that very topic 2 days ago (or 3)	13:34
SpeedEvil	there is something in extras I think to turn that off	13:34
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MiXu-	DocScrutinizer: Ok, thanks	13:34
corecode	xorAxAx: you should package the sample config	13:34
corecode	xorAxAx: seems you're not using gps for location sensing	13:35
DocScrutinizer	MiXu-: bottom line: Even when we'd implement such nonsense, it had no effect whatsoever on battery life	13:35
xorAxAx	the code supports gps but it needs too much energy, corecode	13:35
corecode	yea	13:35
corecode	that was my concern	13:35
corecode	is it possible to use cell information only?	13:35
xorAxAx	yes, if you modify the code	13:35
corecode	xorAxAx: how do you hack on the code?	13:36
xorAxAx	if you want to use dwimd, i suggest a hg clone	13:36
corecode	will do, just what's the most efficient process	13:36
xorAxAx	http://hg.alexanderweb.de/dwimd-main/	13:36
corecode	hack on desktop, build package, load on phone?	13:36
corecode	ssh into phone, hack on phone?	13:37
xorAxAx	hack on the desktop, commit push	13:37
xorAxAx	or hack on the phone, commit push	13:37
xorAxAx	or hack on the desktop, scp file	13:37
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MiXu-	DocScrutinizer: Active vs. inactive packet data has around 1mA difference if I recall right.	13:38
cehteh	sshfs even easier	13:38
cehteh	i mount the build dir of the sdk on the phone and then can try things directly	13:38
xorAxAx	yeah, that works as well	13:39
cehteh	there is also sbsh scratchboxshell, but i dont care sshfs is much easier	13:39
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: that depends.	13:39
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: with some cell networks and use-cases - the phone can be recamping quite often	13:40
corecode	could you guys who worked with that already maybe document it in rough terms in the wiki?	13:40
DocScrutinizer	MiXu-: If you're talking about GPRS - you'll need to run a full DHCP registering for each time you crank up the "connectivity". So even if that 1mA figure is correct, it won't buy you anything, as the increased data traffic for DHCP will eat up all the savings	13:40
cehteh	no .. i work in my self-cooked way, bit raw like a good steak	13:40
corecode	xorAxAx: auto-secure device could be nice too	13:41
corecode	cehteh: that's good	13:41
MiXu-	DocScrutinizer: Ok, that's a good point. I can accept that. :)	13:41
cehteh	i also plan to setup a chroot with the sdk on the device	13:41
corecode	cehteh: any best practice is good to know	13:41
DocScrutinizer	SpeedEvil: recamping only accounts for GPRS if you do not keep any normal GSM connectivity during that	13:41
xorAxAx	corecode: yeah, based on location for example	13:41
xorAxAx	corecode: come to #dwimd if you are interested	13:41
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: maybe - it seems to recamp for me lots more often with an idle GPRS connection.	13:42
SpeedEvil	DocScrutinizer: or maybe I'm measuring wrong	13:42
MiXu-	So actually what would be needed is a change in the protocols :)	13:42
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MiXu-	Or static IP:s for mobile devices, or something.	13:42
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cehteh	hehe we all want our own v6 ip on the n900 right? right!	13:45
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koala_man	right!	13:46
SpeedEvil	v8	13:46
cehteh	ping -f when on vacation .. that will be fun	13:46
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SpeedEvil	static IP, combined with some sort of cryptokey would be good	13:47
SpeedEvil	So the router only accepted signed packets	13:47
cehteh	i got my openvpn very well working now	13:47
cehteh	to home currently .. but considering to put another node my server as gateway	13:47
cehteh	that would allow such stunts	13:47
SpeedEvil	cehteh: yeah - that works too.	13:48
SpeedEvil	But the option to only allow signed packets would be lovely.	13:48
cehteh	thats ipsec :)	13:48
SpeedEvil	And solve completely DDOS issues	13:48
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cehteh	bit pita to setup isnt it	13:49
cehteh	nah it wont	13:49
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SpeedEvil	well - to the extent that the routers knowing your public key can drop packets mis-signed	13:49
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cehteh	validating signatures costs, getting signatures would be all to simple	13:49
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cehteh	routers cant handle that	13:49
SpeedEvil	They should.	13:49
SpeedEvil	And yes, I know there is probably no standard to do this.	13:50
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* cehteh would like some RST packet alike which is respected already by routers voluntary		13:50
SpeedEvil	?	13:51
cehteh	when i say "i dont want packets from X" in a ack packet which goes the route back, every router on that way should drop that route (make a negative entry for some time)	13:51
SpeedEvil	ah	13:51
SpeedEvil	that would sort-of help in some cases yes.	13:52
SpeedEvil	not ddos though	13:52
cehteh	needs to be spoof-proof of course	13:52
SpeedEvil	well - not the worst ddos	13:52
SpeedEvil	there was someone over on ##linux a while back getting ddos'd by a quarter of a million hosts	13:52
SpeedEvil	sending a http connection request every hour or so	13:53
cehteh	in theory even for massive ddos, with the objective to reduce the ddos considerably	13:53
SpeedEvil	yeah - but you can't have long banlists	13:53
cehteh	if you can do that then ddosing becomes less interesting too and may die out	13:53
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cehteh	yeah this should be voluntary routers only accept it as long they have resouces	13:54
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cehteh	but since everyone suffers from ddos even the backbone providers already which are not primary target it might be appealing	13:54
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cehteh	but there is no such technology yet and i am sure there are a lot things i didnt thought of	13:55
SpeedEvil	packet signing would approach it from the other side.	13:55
edheldil	like recognizing legitimate and ddos traffic. If you just filter out, you create ddos on yourself	13:56
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cehteh	packet signing will only work when you know your communication partner or some trusted authority which issues certificates	13:57
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SpeedEvil	yes.	13:57
cehteh	look at the crap ssl usability and what it costs to get certs and how many authorities you never heard of are preinstalled in your browser	13:58
cehteh	and how much usefule (cacert) are not there yet	13:58
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cehteh	it will make private/community/peer2peer communiation much harder	13:58
cehteh	not everyone wants to buy a certificate and is then left behind	13:59
SpeedEvil	In principle p2p could be done by you passing a key along with the search request	13:59
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cehteh	and anonymity networks will also suffer	13:59
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cehteh	imo that opens a can of worms	13:59
edheldil	since ddos botnets use zombie comps, packet signing would not help you much	14:00
SpeedEvil	you're already passing the IP with the search request	14:00
SpeedEvil	edheldil: sure it will.	14:00
SpeedEvil	edheldil: it means that a random packet sent to your IP doesn't get tehre	14:00
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edheldil	that would require that everybody and everything uses certs	14:01
SpeedEvil	yes.	14:01
edheldil	and as soon as you can get to some device, you can send out worm disabling the cert check (unless TPM)	14:03
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jo-erlend	I have a widget on my n900, called Conversations. It displays an envelope with 5 (8) and a "speech bouble" with 1 (49). What do these mean? I've opened sms inbox and email inbox and I can't find any unread messages.	14:05
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Cervajz	Hi guys	14:06
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Cervajz	Is it possible to repair .tmp_video.mp4 file? My N900 switched off during recording and I would like get a part of the record at least. Thank you	14:09
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SpeedEvil	Cervajz: Does mplayer play it?	14:11
Cervajz	SpeedEvil: I dont't test it, because I am on Windows workstation right now. I will try it at home. But VLC doesn't.	14:12
asj__	there's mplayer for windows	14:12
Funnyface	why did it just turn off? out of battery or some other issue?	14:12
SpeedEvil	Cervajz: is the file the right size?	14:12
Cervajz	Funnyface: Yes, out of battery	14:12
SpeedEvil	Cervajz: how large is it?	14:12
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Cervajz	SpeedEvil: It has 250 MB, I think it is ok	14:12
SpeedEvil	Cervajz: also - file a bug.	14:12
Cervajz	proper size	14:12
SpeedEvil	Cervajz: you should not be left with a broken recording if it went down 'cleanly'	14:13
SpeedEvil	~bug	14:13
infobot	well, bug is n: A son of a glitch. An error in design or programming in hardware or software. Effects range from cosmetic errors to system crash and loss of data. See also Feature.	14:13
SpeedEvil	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtcSYPjJbgg	14:13
SpeedEvil	err	14:13
SpeedEvil	I've no idea what that is	14:13
SpeedEvil	https://bugs.maemo.org/index.cgi	14:14
SpeedEvil	I meant	14:14
nid0	first one indicates you're a monty python fan.	14:14
SpeedEvil	Ah. It was in another channel. I was suggesting a punishment for female pickpockets. After someone commented that you can't just punch them coz they're girls.	14:15
Cervajz	Let me check mplayer in windows	14:15
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t_s_o	ok, why is maemo planet recycling 2 year old blogs?	14:17
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Cervajz	http://pastebin.com/vQqMnzyc	14:20
Cervajz	So, mplayer doesn't replay this file :(	14:20
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SpeedEvil	Ok - does mplayer -forceindex do anything?	14:21
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mmarc__	hi, what do we have apout grep, looks like it is installed already, but when trying apt-get install grep, it wannts to remove numerous package. With existing /bin/grep the source configure issue is "checking for grep that handles long lines and -e... configure: error: no acceptable grep could be found in /bin:/usr/xpg4/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/xpg4/bin" - have you seen this?	14:22
Cervajz	SpeedEvil: Unknown parameter	14:22
SpeedEvil	-forceidx	14:24
SpeedEvil	oops	14:24
X-Fade	SpeedEvil: Doesn't that read the entire file first?	14:24
SpeedEvil	mmarc__: there is gnu-grep in the repos.	14:24
SpeedEvil	X-Fade: yes	14:24
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mmarc__	SpeedEvil: I've seen grep-gnu, but what repository is it from?	14:25
SpeedEvil	It's in extras-testing at teh moment I think	14:25
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SpeedEvil	http://maemo.org/packages/view/grep-gnu/	14:26
Cervajz	SpeedEvil: Same error like "pastebin"	14:26
SpeedEvil	Cervajz: is this a video you can easily share, or private?	14:26
mmarc__	SpeedEvil: repository url is http://repository.maemo.org/extras ?	14:26
SpeedEvil	People over on #mplayer may have more clues	14:26
SpeedEvil	mmarc__: don't recall ATM	14:27
mmarc__	pard me?	14:27
lcuk	Cervajz, copy file to desktop and diagnose from there. it is seemingly corrupt	14:27
SpeedEvil	mmarc__: I don't think it's in extras - maybe extras-devel - or extras-testing	14:27
X-Fade	mmarc__: The grep you are using probably comes from busybox.	14:27
Cervajz	SpeedEvil: I can share it :) It is form concert of Imogen Heap	14:27
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Cervajz	from*	14:27
mmarc__	yup, looks so	14:27
SpeedEvil	Cervajz: I would also see if the same happens when you truncate a good file	14:27
SpeedEvil	Cervajz: people from #mplayer may or may not have a clue	14:28
lcuk	on desktop check if file is filled with 0's	14:28
SpeedEvil	that too	14:28
lcuk	SpeedEvil, this isnt mplayer fault	14:28
SpeedEvil	lcuk: I'm not saying it is	14:28
lcuk	afaik its a corrupt video Cervajz is trying to use	14:28
SpeedEvil	lcuk: I'm saying they may have a clue on rescuing corrupt videos.	14:28
SpeedEvil	For example - sometimes you can recover streams by prepending or appending bits from files with similar encodings.	14:29
Cervajz	It is not filled by 0 (in hexa view)	14:29
SpeedEvil	There are several possibilities.	14:29
SpeedEvil	mplayer/the viewer cannot play the file without the trailer or header filled in as the recorder would normally do at the end of recording.	14:30
nid0	heh good old microsoft	14:30
SpeedEvil	The file data has not been properly allocated, and the data you are seeing in the file isn't 'real' data - just garbage off teh disk.	14:30
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nid0	win7 rc1 auto shutdowns as of this month can be fooled by such complexity as winding the system's date back.	14:30
SpeedEvil	Actually - that's only two	14:31
Cervajz	SpeedEvil: I think, that the right one is first one	14:31
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SpeedEvil	possibly.	14:32
SpeedEvil	I'd try first truncating the file.	14:32
SpeedEvil	A known good file that is	14:32
SpeedEvil	then running battery out again	14:32
SpeedEvil	and see if you get the same reaction	14:32
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Chiku	does gmail talk work for you?	14:38
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Cervajz	SpeedEvil: Okay, I'll do some experiments at home.	14:38
Cervajz	Thank you	14:38
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SpeedEvil	good luck	14:39
SpeedEvil	But submit a bug	14:39
SpeedEvil	if the shutdown was clean - that's a bug - as the video recorder should have finished off the file.	14:39
SpeedEvil	If the shutdown was not clean - that's also a bug - as it should have shutdown cleanly	14:40
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Jaffa	Morning, all	14:43
SpeedEvil	Norming	14:44
* Jaffa wonders if sjgadsby will accept jeremiah's nomination.		14:45
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red	http://www.greenpeace.org/international/campaigns/toxics/electronics/how-the-companies-line-up	14:46
red	:)	14:46
SpeedEvil	ass-hats.	14:47
SpeedEvil	Largely.	14:47
dazo	Anyone seen this one? http://lwn.net/SubscriberLink/376793/e005a4364bf44c5d/ .... "Apple's patent attack"	14:48
derf	You shouldn't repost subscriber links in a public forum. They're meant for sharing with individuals.	14:49
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dazo	derf: ahh ... didn't know	14:49
dazo	derf: thx for the info!	14:50
Shrik3	red: greenpeace counts promises to do better in the score	14:51
Shrik3	which is bullshit	14:51
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SpeedEvil	And the toxic content of stuff is largely irrelevant in many cases.	14:53
SpeedEvil	If you employ a worker making mobile phones.	14:53
SpeedEvil	You have to count a portion of whole emissions of that worker against the phones.	14:53
SpeedEvil	From the fertiliser used for their food, to their holiday on a plane.	14:54
nid0	tbh the whole apple filing is as much bullshit as almost every other software patent spat	14:54
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Funnyface	SpeedEvil: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=553658#post553658 :P	14:56
Shrik3	that's just basic american patent procedure	14:56
Shrik3	they dig out every single obvious patent they have and throw them at the opponent	14:56
Shrik3	and see what sticks	14:56
Shrik3	then the opponent does the same	14:56
Shrik3	lawyers get rich, nothing really happens	14:56
tybollt	yeah	14:57
Lumpio-	This is why we should forget about America	14:57
tybollt	there's always a settlement out of court in the end	14:57
Lumpio-	Move development to a more civilized country	14:57
tybollt	if however one of the parties haven't gone bancrupt by thern	14:57
SpeedEvil	Funnyface: err - what?	14:57
Funnyface	just some silly thread I found :P	14:57
Shrik3	there really haven't been that many high profile patent losses	14:58
Funnyface	thought maybe you'd like it as you have knowledge in both subjects.. :P	14:58
Shrik3	sony's vibration patent is the only one that comes to my mind	14:58
tybollt	?	14:58
tybollt	sony owns the dildo patent? :)	14:59
Shrik3	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immersion_v._Sony	14:59
Funnyface	oh and err I am in the wrong channel too..	14:59
SpeedEvil	solar charget 100mm*50mm will in desert sun - intercept about 7.5W of sunlight. About 15% best-case of that can be converted into electricity. So about 1W	14:59
Shrik3	ps3 didn't have dualshock at first because, according to sony, "it didn't fit in the controller with sixaxis detection"	14:59
Shrik3	the real reason was their patent dispute with immersion	14:59
Shrik3	after that cleared - surprise - the vibration components suddenly fit inside the controller =)	15:00
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Chiku	ok gmail video works for wifi	15:01
Khertan	http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_non-free_armel/vectormine/1.0.5-1/ <--- still require your vote !	15:01
SpeedEvil	Funnyface: 1W will charge the n900 - if not being used - in about 4h.	15:02
tybollt	Khertan: you may stop spamming that now...	15:02
tybollt	really	15:02
SpeedEvil	Funnyface: that's in the desert sun. But it will also overheat it.	15:02
tybollt	it's getting annoying since I suppose it is just a script	15:02
Khertan	tybollt: yep ... really :) it was not post to the right windows	15:02
Khertan	no it s not a script	15:02
tybollt	oh well :)	15:02
Khertan	but a arrow up	15:02
Khertan	ctrl-c	15:02
Khertan	shift tab	15:03
Khertan	ctrl-v	15:03
Funnyface	SpeedEvil: yes, I think it is pretty much a useless idea, + most of those people are probably clueless about the power you can expect from the panel, and how much the device uses :P	15:03
Khertan	but ... the ctrl was missing in the ctrl-shift-tab shortcut	15:03
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tybollt	=)	15:03
Funnyface	however when we get these thin film cells that can be integrated into clothes and such, maybe they'll sell coats with a charger plug in the pocket :D	15:03
SpeedEvil	In more normal climates - it might charge if left all summer day	15:04
Khertan	so the result was posting it again ... instead of posting it to an other firefox tabs :) sorry for the noise	15:04
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tybollt	Khertan: no harm done :)	15:05
X-Fade	Khertan: Spammer ;)	15:05
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Khertan	X-Fade: at least you haven't see my other project yet ...	15:06
Khertan	bluespam ... a proximity bluetooth spammer :)	15:06
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DocScrutinizer	Khertan: HAH, that's you	15:09
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Khertan	DocScrutinizer: i'm not the only one who done that ... but i ve one that use a n810 to spam :)	15:10
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Khertan	hum talk.maemo.org ... is slow	15:13
Khertan	and doesn't answer ...	15:13
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Khertan	next time it was when pr1.1 was available :)	15:13
Khertan	maybe a good sign	15:13
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DocScrutinizer	probably the cleaning team accitentally hit one of the screens of the 770 server farm	15:15
tybollt	770 server farm?	15:15
pupnik	RST38h: i cant really find anything unworkable with nethack / vultures eye and N900 keyboard. don't recall all commands though.	15:15
Khertan	oh ? really there is more than one 770 ?	15:15
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tybollt	Nokia N770 server farm?	15:16
tybollt	Uhm	15:16
Khertan	you mean they use 3 770 for hosting maemo ?	15:16
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Khertan	:)	15:16
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DocScrutinizer	nah they expanded it to 50 recently	15:16
mmarc__	SpeedEvil: thanks, but how now can I switch from busybox's grep onto grep-gnu? configure seems still trying to use busybox's grep	15:16
pupnik	maemo.org speed has been okay for me at least lately	15:17
Khertan	stupid but required ... as other are stupid too	15:19
Khertan	oupss ... wrong windows	15:19
DocScrutinizer	again?	15:20
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* Khertan should clean is keyboard ... ctrl key isn't working all the time		15:20
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Meego	hi... can u help me? i need to create a key press value to change direcory on biash shell script	15:21
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tybollt	biash?	15:22
Meego	something like press 1 to mmc	15:22
tybollt	who you calling a biatch?	15:22
Meego	bash sorry	15:22
tybollt	;-)	15:22
tybollt	just kidding	15:22
Khertan	... hum ... there is more and more Meego ... M33GO m33g0 m3eGo nick here	15:22
Meego	funny	15:22
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tybollt	Khertan: /nick meeto :)	15:23
Meego	meego we hope bout it	15:23
Meego	can u help me?	15:23
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tybollt	can you elaborate on what you need to do?	15:24
tybollt	changing dir is accomplished by the "cd" command followed by a path	15:24
Meego	i need a code script that pressing 1 works like cd /media/mmc1/ pressing 2 others...	15:25
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Meego	i know. but i have to create a valute with an echo.	15:26
tybollt	ah	15:26
tybollt	while readline	15:26
timeless_mbp2	_\|Nix\|_: sorry, i'm around now...	15:26
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tybollt	is the typical bashism for that Meego	15:26
Meego	an example?	15:26
tybollt	Meego: the bash man page has plenty IIRC	15:26
tybollt	or the googles	15:26
Meego	please... i m creating a maemo application	15:27
tybollt	timeless_mbp2: what will it cost me to bribe an N900 nookla person to change "Yeah, right" to something else? :S	15:27
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timeless_mbp2	tybollt: 'yeah, right' is only in my en_US locale...	15:28
timeless_mbp2	the en_GB locale uses something else	15:28
timeless_mbp2	if you don't like yeah, right, you can use en_GB :)	15:28
tybollt	timeless_mbp2: You want me to change to .fi, don't you? :P	15:28
tybollt	but fair enough then	15:28
chr83	hi everybody! i followed the irc link on maemo.org. i'm interested in buying the n900 but i have questions for which i couldn't find answers, maybe some of you can help	15:29
Meego	we can	15:29
Meego	i ve it	15:29
tybollt	timeless_mbp2: when it boots back up ... will it be "Very well then, jolly ol chap"?	15:29
Meego	i m chatting with it	15:29
chr83	thanks. s, from what i gathered, it is quite possible that maego 6 / meego won't run on the n900, right?	15:30
timeless_mbp2	tybollt: sadly it's slightly more business like, i don't remember precisely	15:30
timeless_mbp2	do you really dislike yeah, right?	15:30
mmarc__	do we have glib-2.0 on maemo?	15:30
timeless_mbp2	mmarc__: http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/find?string=glib.*debian/control ?	15:30
Meego	maemo 5? i check	15:30
Shrik3	chr83: no one really knows if it will run or not	15:30
tybollt	timeless_mbp2: I die a little inside everytime I see it. But I don't want to be a nerd and file a bug report just for you to go all WON'TFIX on me :):)	15:31
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timeless_mbp2	mmarc__: http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/glib2.0/debian/changelog	15:31
chr83	yes, what i wonder is this: if/when nokia stops updating the n900, is maemo open enough that the community / the devs can still fix bugs and add features, or is this only possible with nokia's blessing?	15:32
Meego	we have on fremantle libglib2.0-0	15:32
Stskeeps	chr83: my role is to help community do things in that area	15:33
timeless_mbp2	chr83: you don't mean fix features and add bugs? :)	15:33
Stskeeps	and blessing can mean a lot of things :)	15:33
DocScrutinizer	Stskeeps: :-)	15:33
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Meego	someone can help me with bash shell script?	15:34
tybollt	timeless_mbp2: thanks, the UK_en is way way less nausiating, although far from perfect.	15:34
chr83	so it's possible? i'm worried having a no-longer officially supported device which still has bugs and missing features a year from now - and that the core of the maemo community will be focusing on meego and newer devices	15:34
mmarc__	timeless_mbp2: thanks	15:35
lcuk	meego use a proper nickname like everybody else	15:35
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lcuk	well that solves that problem	15:35
tybollt	awww =)	15:35
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timeless_mbp2	chr83: roughly, you can update modest independently of nokia	15:35
timeless_mbp2	as long as you can get translation strings for new features	15:36
lcuk	and theres a metric tonne of code on gitorious now	15:36
timeless_mbp2	you can get firefox for mobile from mozilla.org	15:36
lcuk	all the desktop and gtk stuff and lots of things	15:36
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timeless_mbp2	you can add additional codecs (or improved ones) for mafw via gstreamer	15:36
timeless_mbp2	roughly speaking, you have a debian derivative with a slightly strange base	15:36
timeless_mbp2	but if there's a third party with a decent mobile ui, you can probably get their app for your n900 and use it and rely on their maintenance cycle	15:37
lcuk	we just had a patch from community for tracker	15:37
chr83	i heard the drivers are not open source is that true?	15:37
SpeedEvil	chr83: no	15:37
SpeedEvil	chr83: at least not for most	15:37
Stskeeps	chr83: all kernel modules are open source	15:37
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SpeedEvil	yes, that	15:38
Stskeeps	and kernel itself	15:38
Stskeeps	there is an exception to some userland bits which are closed (3d libs, battery management) but they aren't a problem if you aren't too idealistic and focus on the goal instead	15:38
koala_man	chr83: maemo has several blobs, but you can install other os like Mer	15:38
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lcuk	and of course you can do whatever you want to replace the closed components whilst keeping the os	15:39
chr83	those community patches - do they get incorporated into the official nokia updates or is there some community website with patches to download or something ?	15:39
Stskeeps	they occasionally get included	15:40
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lcuk	chr83, i can confirm that community patches do get integrated when they are reported and documented and managed correctly and have a real effect (ie fixing real bugs)	15:40
lcuk	"i made a patch to replace os with android" probably wont get in ;)	15:41
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lcuk	but something like "my album art is borked but i found out why" has a much better chance	15:41
lcuk	Stskeeps, didnt one of your patches get merged in recently	15:42
chr83	great. one real world end-user example: it's possible that there will be skype videocalls with the front cam even after nokia stopped updateing7supporting the n900?	15:42
lcuk	you blogged about it	15:42
lcuk	when community start offering patches for skype then they can be looked at	15:42
lcuk	but last i heard there was no community of developers	15:43
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X-Fade	chr83: Skype is a wrong example as that is a closed source application.	15:43
Stskeeps	lcuk: yeah, but for some purposes my patches aren't community	15:43
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chr83	right	15:44
lcuk	not now i agree but wasnt that done before you were upgraded	15:44
Stskeeps	jesus, it's snowing a lot outside	15:44
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Stskeeps	lcuk: think some may have	15:44
mmarc__	configure: error: S-Lang library version 2.0 or newer not found	15:44
mmarc__	slang1/slang1a seems to be not the right thing. Maybe we need slang2? Does it exist?	15:44
lcuk	chr83, there is also the case that all the upstream modifications that go in	15:44
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chr83	another speculation which oyu guys probably can make much better informed guesses about: if maemo6/meego really won't be supported on the n900 - do you think the majority of devs will move onto newer devices, leaving the n900 behind?	15:47
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SpeedEvil	At some point, devs move.	15:47
SpeedEvil	Devs move with the users - prettymuch	15:48
Andrewfblack	Stskeeps: Should I bug you this week?	15:48
chr83	you know the n900 is quite expensive so i have to convince myself it's a good decision ;)	15:48
SpeedEvil	developing for a platform with 0 users is boring.	15:48
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ptl	really, guys, what made us very insecure about our N900s are these vague responses	15:48
Stskeeps	go read my post	15:48
Stskeeps	:P	15:48
Stskeeps	and the FUD thread	15:48
ptl	I consider this very negative... More feedback should be given to prospective devs/users	15:48
X-Fade	People tend to follow the new things anyway. But that said, harmattan hardware is announced to use omap3 too.	15:49
X-Fade	So there isn't a cpu generation change.	15:49
t_s_o	it also depends on what kind of project the dev is working on, and how it can benefit from new hardware or platform	15:49
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dazo	chr83: it is a good buy ... expensive, yes ... but it's one of the best devices I've ever had ... I dropped Nokia after 7650 ... had two SE K700i and K800i .... but N900 is just awesome!	15:49
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ptl	Why can't we have definitive responses? It seems we're just being deceived. Go out and say: "Nor maemo 6 neiter Meego will run on N900. You'll have to buy a new device. Updates will stop at the end of the year."	15:50
mmarc__	slang2 exists in maemo5 tree, but not clear, what repository it belongs to. Do you know?	15:50
ptl	Or say "Yes, we'll help you run Maemo 6 on the N900 but it will be unofficial, since we can't guarantee the update"	15:50
ptl	either way, please, don't say generic stuff like 'developers move with the users'	15:50
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dazo	chr83: the device could have parts which would be more open, to be idealistic .... but the platform itself seems to be open enough .... and which other platforms gives you the power to format your own phone into a non-bootable state, requiring reflashing? And you can even reflash it yourself ....	15:51
Andrewfblack	Stskeeps: which post?	15:51
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SpeedEvil	ptl: Sorry - it's a fact.	15:51
ptl	the platform is open, but it seems to not be following linus' kernel tree, either	15:51
SpeedEvil	ptl: If users stop using devices - so will devs.	15:51
Stskeeps	Andrewfblack: ah, wasn't to you :) was about the worrying one	15:51
SpeedEvil	ptl: Point to one thing with an active development community and no users.	15:52
t_s_o	ptl: its the age old story of marketing vs engineering. the former trives on vagueness, the latter on exactness	15:52
dazo	chr83: I don't think you'll regret getting an N900 .... it will always be a better device next week .... but I see my N900 to last for at least 18-24 more months :)	15:52
Andrewfblack	Stskeeps: ok	15:52
ptl	SpeedEvil: let's say I am tired of Nokia (and Moblin, and Meego, and Maemo personnel) non-responses... They don't help, and I'd rather know with anticipation if I should invest more in this platform or not.	15:52
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SpeedEvil	ptl: Look at the current state of mer	15:53
X-Fade	ptl: uses linux-omap, pretty well known tree.	15:53
SpeedEvil	http://www.maemonokian900.com/maemo-news/dual-booting-mer-on-nokia-n900/	15:53
t_s_o	and also, never talk about the upcoming product while the existing product its going to replace is in the shelfs, as that can kill the sales of the existing device	15:53
SpeedEvil	At some point largescale support for the n900 will go away - as users migrate to other devices.	15:53
ptl	X-Fade: that's not true, even the touchscreen driver was taken off the linux-omap tree after 2.6.29 from what I've read on the mailing lists	15:53
tybollt	t_s_o: that why they announced meego NOW? :):):)	15:54
SpeedEvil	Largescale community support I mean.	15:54
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t_s_o	tybollt: thats a platform, not a hardware product	15:54
Stskeeps	ptl: it was re-introduced actually	15:54
Stskeeps	just not merged yet	15:54
tybollt	t_s_o: tell that to hundreds of thousands of N900 nerds out there...	15:54
t_s_o	tybollt: and they have been clear that existing software will be able to run on meego	15:54
ptl	* PR1.0, PR1.0.1 or PR1.1 on your N900 ---> not PR 1.1.1?	15:55
t_s_o	tybollt: nerds should know the difference, the joes with a lust for bling however...	15:55
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chr83	in my opinion the official "we don't know" answer about meego on n900 means pretty much "no"... but i don't even have to have the newest os generation, i just don't want a device which won't be updated any more maybe a year from now and then still has bugs nad misses features - that's why i wonder how strong the community really is an dhow open the n900 really is...	15:56
X-Fade	Remember now that development is standardizing on Qt, we can always recompile apps for Maemo 5 etc.	15:56
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toggles_w	chr83: once nokia stops you move to Mer	15:57
X-Fade	chr83: No phone will ever be without bugs. And always missing the latest features.	15:57
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nid0	the "we dont know" is the only answer youll get until/unless nokia physically have a finalised working running copy of meego running on a production n900. even saying "maybe" would open massive tins of legal worms if they ended up not being able to deliver for any reason.	15:57
chr83	of course. but take the iphone for example, it may be far from perfect, but you can still get the newest os version for the oldest over 2 yeaqr old device	15:57
koala_man	even if all official n900 updates stopped today, I'd still buy it again	15:57
X-Fade	And nobody knows what MeeGo really is, so until then nobody can promise you anything.	15:58
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chr83	yeah i don't need a meego promise, i actually don't acre about the newest os or anything, i just want something which will not be forgotten in the 18 month timeframe	15:59
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DocScrutinizer	chr83: so what will that 'newest os version' buy you?	15:59
SpeedEvil	18 months - I think it's safe to say that there will be a community distribution worstcase.	16:00
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SpeedEvil	36 months - support on that will probably be dropping away.	16:00
SpeedEvil	And much over that, you risk drivers dropping out of the kernel due to not being maintained.	16:00
ptl	Are you liable for these schedules? :P	16:00
SpeedEvil	Of course not.	16:00
ptl	lol	16:00
SpeedEvil	Based on prior experience with community hardware.	16:00
nid0	we're gonna come at you with pitchforks if you're wrong.	16:01
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SpeedEvil	For $5000, I would attempt to make sure drivers stay in the mainline kernel for 5 years.	16:02
SpeedEvil	Otherwise - ...	16:02
chr83	docscrutinizer: i don't know and as i said i don't need the newest os generation, i just want to make sure that hings like better gmail support in the email client (i heard it's really slow if you have a lot of messages) will be available	16:02
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nid0	then you're better going with an iphone, crystal ball doesnt know whether nokia will rewrite the email client	16:03
chr83	i alreday have a 3gs but i need a new toy ;)	16:04
SpeedEvil	modest is opensource.	16:04
SpeedEvil	You can add shit if you want, or convince people to.	16:04
DocScrutinizer	chr83: let me put it this way: I fnokia needs 12months or more to provide this functionality you're missing, and there was no way to work around that with FOSS apps, then you probably should return your device	16:04
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X-Fade	DocScrutinizer: You shouldn't even have bought it then.	16:05
sar3th	chr83: i use gmail/imap with a huge load of mails, it's pretty fast	16:05
nid0	tbh though the point is more that adding enough to modest to make it anything better than modest effectively means rewriting it.	16:05
X-Fade	DocScrutinizer: You should buy it if it does for you what you want it to do.	16:05
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DocScrutinizer	X-Fade: there's no way to tell, other than buy and test ;-P	16:05
chr83	sar3th: so that has been fixed? good :)	16:05
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sar3th	i haven't tested with normal pop and not much mails though	16:06
nid0	its pretty quick at handling imap folders for me as well, but its actual functionality's chronically limited	16:06
nid0	and pop is still bugged until pr1.2 at least	16:06
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timeless_mbp2	does anyone here know anything about 'gnome-mount' ?	16:07
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DocScrutinizer	X-Fade: still for things like dialler not accepting USSD codes, or frontcam quality borked, I'd always be willing to give Nokia a chance to fix that. Not in 18 months though. That's been my rationale behind the advice to chr83	16:09
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DocScrutinizer	actually there's very few such basic flaws I'm aware of	16:09
DocScrutinizer	and seems Nokia is willing to fix them in reasonable timeframe	16:10
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nid0	well there's basically ussd codes, frontcam, ovi connectivity, and arguably mms	16:11
ptl	very few?	16:11
* timeless_mbp2 is confused		16:11
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ptl	ovi maps is too crude, no support for videocalls and mms, no LEAP on wifi, no dialpad shortcuts, no landscape mode, just to recall from memory	16:12
ptl	they are not few	16:12
ptl	at least admit they are more than a few.	16:13
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ptl	many of them are even	16:13
ptl	many of them are even 'wontfix' bugs... like the LEAP support	16:13
sar3th	LEAP?	16:13
SpeedEvil	ptl: and many users don't care about those	16:14
nid0	no portrait mode is arguable at best, this is a device that's obviously designed to be used in landscape for anything other than talking on the phone, if that's a major problem for a user it can easily be chalked up to buying the wrong device.	16:14
ptl	Yes, a wireless authentication protocol used by about 50% of big businesses.	16:14
timeless_mbp2	ptl: 'dialpad shortcuts'?	16:14
sar3th	oh oky	16:14
timeless_mbp2	you can stick a call X onto your home screen	16:14
timeless_mbp2	what do you mean 'no landscape mode'?	16:14
chr83	oh another thing, is there samba / cifs client and server support available? ported from regular debian i guess?	16:15
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ptl	timeless_mbp2: I know... but that's not the same (I agree this one is a minor issue)	16:15
timeless_mbp2	99% of apps support landscape	16:15
ptl	timeless_mbp2: you can't press the shortcut and start calling, you first have to select call or sms	16:15
DocScrutinizer	ptl: so wtf stops you from implementing this LEAP for your device?	16:15
nid0	timeless_mbp2, i suspect he meant no portrait mode	16:15
ptl	DocScrutinizer: it's a patented authentication scheme, I can't program by myself	16:15
timeless_mbp2	iirc Blocks is the only app that doesn't support landscape	16:15
timeless_mbp2	nid0: then he better spell it right	16:15
ptl	nid0: yes, thanks for correcting me	16:15
DocScrutinizer	ptl: so probably can't Nokia	16:15
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timeless_mbp2	portrait support is being slowly added to apps	16:16
timeless_mbp2	a bunch of other apps get portrait in 1.2	16:16
timeless_mbp2	urho is writing the major release notes for that now	16:16
ptl	I agree that system apps are getting portrair mode support	16:16
timeless_mbp2	video call is coming for gtalk in 1.2	16:16
timeless_mbp2	mms is available from a third party	16:16
timeless_mbp2	(today)	16:17
ptl	but wasn't the system itself supposed to facilitate it?	16:17
timeless_mbp2	but mms was never a promised feature	16:17
ptl	1.2 is going out today?	16:17
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DocScrutinizer	exactly	16:17
timeless_mbp2	and complaining about something we never promised is incredibly stupid	16:17
timeless_mbp2	the same applies to leap	16:17
mikkov	isn't video call for gtalk working already?	16:17
ptl	I don't even use MMS	16:17
timeless_mbp2	ptl: most people don't waste time writing release notes 10 months in advance	16:17
ptl	but I am acknowledging that it is a feature that users might want	16:17
timeless_mbp2	too much time for things to change	16:17
timeless_mbp2	so it should mean we're talking about <8 weeks :)	16:17
timeless_mbp2	(maybe <10 weeks?)	16:17
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DocScrutinizer	ptl: might want is BS. It's not a promised feature	16:18
timeless_mbp2	users want ~the moon and the stars in the sky, i swear~	16:18
timeless_mbp2	http://www.lyrics007.com/All-4-One%20Lyrics/I%20Swear%20Lyrics.html	16:18
tybollt	I still consider it a flaw	16:18
tybollt	no mms is a flaw	16:18
timeless_mbp2	no mms is not a flaw	16:18
ptl	DocScrutinizer: there are some expectations you get even if the producer didn't promise, because they are present in old phones. MMS, videocall are some example	16:19
ptl	*examples	16:19
tybollt	timeless_mbp2: it is	16:19
timeless_mbp2	the kernel we're using can't support mms properly	16:19
tybollt	timeless_mbp2: it was in the iphone it is in the n900.	16:19
ptl	can't support?	16:19
timeless_mbp2	so trying to implement it would just have resulted in people complaining about it not working	16:19
tybollt	timeless_mbp2: fair enough	16:19
arachnist	mms? i find it hardly useful, since we have "share via service" on the n900	16:19
ptl	isn't MMS a application-space-feature?	16:19
timeless_mbp2	ptl: the mms network violates certain rules about ip numbering	16:19
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timeless_mbp2	no	16:19
tybollt	timeless_mbp2: My point is I'm not a disgruntled kid talking about promises. :-)	16:19
ptl	oh	16:19
timeless_mbp2	because it violates ip address routing	16:19
arachnist	ptl: not entierly. it needs a separate network connection	16:19
arachnist	ptl: and what timeless_mbp2 said	16:20
timeless_mbp2	which means you need a hacked networking stack to make it work properly	16:20
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timeless_mbp2	symbian happens to have such a stack	16:20
timeless_mbp2	i'm not quite sure how apple does it	16:20
timeless_mbp2	(symbian uses iirc a deprecated portion of the ipv6 scheme for mms, which is a clever hack, but it's a hack)	16:21
timeless_mbp2	a later version of the linux kernel has some support for this disaster, fwiw	16:21
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timeless_mbp2	but it still requires some interesting machinations	16:21
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timeless_mbp2	because an app that's run as a user is supposed to inherit networking from its parent	16:21
tybollt	timeless_mbp2: now you're just showing off mate. You know the rest of us have no clue :P	16:21
arachnist	tybollt: i have a clue.	16:21
frals	bottom line, dont use mms if you can help it	16:21
Terje2	timeless, Symbian supports IP namespaces: different connections have different IP namespaces. Same thing is coming to Linux.	16:22
timeless_mbp2	tybollt: sadly i've listened to people describing the problem	16:22
timeless_mbp2	Terje1: they used a portion of the ipv6 stuff to do it iirc	16:22
tybollt	arachnist: mea culpa	16:22
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tybollt	frals: you may not have a choice (receiving mms)	16:22
timeless_mbp2	Terje2: i'm not sure exactly how the linux stuff is going to be implemented	16:22
timeless_mbp2	but my impression is that the security portion makes the linux story sad	16:23
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timeless_mbp2	roughly it should mean that you have to create a daemon on the other side of the ip namespace stack so that your normal app started by a normal app can use the wrong ip namespace	16:23
DocScrutinizer	tybollt: please bear in mind there's other phones out there which don't know to mss	16:23
DocScrutinizer	mms	16:23
Terje2	timeless, I disagree, they did it "the correct way". You don't need IPv6 hacks if you consider the network interface name to be part of the IP address. Same thing is going into Linux kernel.	16:23
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timeless_mbp2	'network interface name to be part of the ip address'?	16:24
* timeless_mbp2 sighs		16:24
tybollt	DocScrutinizer: those phones are then by the same standards: flawed	16:24
timeless_mbp2	trying to deal with Finglish is too complicated	16:24
timeless_mbp2	or Fingrish	16:24
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* timeless_mbp2 goes off to write a letter to Nokia House		16:25
Terje2	timeless, I guess end of discussion.	16:25
timeless_mbp2	Terje2: yep	16:25
timeless_mbp2	come back when you can express yourself :(	16:25
DocScrutinizer	tybollt: huh? how's a 8 year old 6210 flawed when it simply has no display or cam or whatever to handle multimedia content at all	16:25
tybollt	meh	16:25
timeless_mbp2	DocScrutinizer++	16:25
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Terje2	timeless, I did.	16:26
DocScrutinizer	tybollt: same applies for the 15bucks phone you buy at your local store next week	16:26
* tybollt hope to $DEITY doc didn't just compare a 6210 to a N900...		16:26
timeless_mbp2	Terje2: _clearly_	16:26
timeless_mbp2	and _understandably_	16:26
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timeless_mbp2	fwiw, a good example of Fingrish is here: http://conversations.nokia.com/2010/03/02/nokia-c5-unveiled/	16:27
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timeless_mbp2	> It also comes packing free walk and drive navigation courtesy of Ovi Maps and is ready for messaging with Nokia Messaging built in.	16:27
DocScrutinizer	tybollt: I just say nobody can expect an MMS sent to you is really making it to your display. So you always got an alternative to recieving MMS	16:27
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timeless_mbp2	tybollt: how's that line? :)	16:28
DocScrutinizer	tybollt: it's by no means a mandatory feature	16:28
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