IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2010-03-01

Ilamuser_Stskeeps: yes it is a N90000:00
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Ian--Ilamuser_: seems more like the usb port to me :/00:00
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Ilamuser_cehteh: when you turn it on normally it will boot to the desktop. When you turn it off and insert a usb cable it will turn on, not progress to booting, but not show a usb icon. The white-led flashes twice and then a green led flashes then it reboots and repeats.00:01
cehtehthats strange00:02
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Ilamuser_lan: yes the battery was fully charged in another phone before attempting anything. i also tried turning off the phone, removing the battery, inserting the usb-cable, and then reinserting the battery. Apparently this can help in some cases but it didn't fix the problem.00:03
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pupnik_what does flasher say after inserting cable and powering on?00:05
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Ilamuser_It just keeps waiting indefinitely for a usb device.00:06
Stskeeps64-bit windows?00:07
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Ilamuser_I'm running 32-bit linux.00:08
Stskeepssudo flasher-3.5? mine works with "plug in usb both sides, plug in battery"00:10
Stskeepsand flashing starts after that00:10
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Ilamuser_Yes. It looks like I'll have to send it back to nokia for repair.00:11
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Ilamuser_I am a sad panda [:{]. Thanks for the help.00:12
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cehtehDocScrutinizer: ext3 is much slower, but at least the space benefit remains00:14
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DocScrutinizer51and did you move /usr or/and /var now?00:15
cehtehno just MyDocs00:16
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cehtehworked with ext4 like a charm until this evening when there was a kernel update which broke it :P00:16
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Ian--people how does your n900 battery last? on normal usage mine averages 8hours - wifi is off but i have 3G data connection this normal? i have the latest firmware00:16
cehtehi think i stay with standard kernel ..00:17
DocScrutinizer51Ian--: that's normal00:17
cehtehlan--: depends quite much on the usage and config .. but that looks ok00:17
DocScrutinizer513G is a power hog00:17
cehtehput it in gsm mode if you can do00:18
Ian--well i could but then some sites take longer to load00:18
cehtehmeans no data / voice in parallel .. and only low bandwidth00:18
cehtehotherwise put it in 3G mode but not in dual mode .. switching costs extra00:18
cehtehbut if you only want it always on for irc and email then gsm is the best bet00:19
DocScrutinizer51those friggin schematics.pdf was fine on evince on my desktop. N900 says "need password" - wtf?00:19
Ian--ye i noticed that dual takes more00:19
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DocScrutinizer51cehteh: Ian--: switching is happening rarely and shouldn't take any noticeable percentage of a upstream connection00:21
cehtehDocScrutinizer: here at my home it switches quite much00:22
Ian--ye i'm in the same situation DocScrutinizer one room it's 2g another it's 300:22
cehtehand others reported that too that switching costs a lot of power ... prolly because of additional cpu and handshakes with the cell tower00:23
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DocScrutinizer51the most important thing is to keep upstream data volume low, and by all means bundle pacets to more seldomly sending larger bunches of data00:23
pupnik_the 2g/3g mode selection applet is nice00:24
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DocScrutinizer51cehteh: if it handshakes each  time then frequent switching of course eats bat00:24
DocScrutinizer51pupnik_: yep00:24
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cehtehlooks to me like it handshakes every switch between 2g/3g00:24
autoguycebit expo has some kind of opensource theme. anyone know if theres any maemo activities?00:25
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DocScrutinizer51also be aware TCP makes an ACK go upstream for each received packet00:25
fnordianslipDocScrutinizer: not entirely accurate - the window opens up00:27
DocScrutinizer51fnordianslip: sorry?00:27
fnordianslipthe TCP window gets bigger, so each packet doesn't need acking00:28
nid0cant immediately find a bugreport on this and still looking into the exact circumstances more, but is anyone aware of a bug where trying to play an unsupported video file in the media player produces an error as normal, but then playing one that is supported afterwards just doesnt play, until the device is rebooted?00:28
DocScrutinizer51hm ok00:28
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fnordianslipnid0: i've seen that issue. not sure if there is a bug reported though00:29
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SpeedEvilnid0: I've heard of that happening before. I have no detaisl00:30
nid0ill put together proper details on the codecs used and stick up a bug report then00:31
lcuknid0, for such a thing, if possible find an example video00:31
lcukit always helps if something becomes routinely reproducable00:31
n00bmonk3ylol i love that burgerface app/game :D00:32
nid0yeah ill have to encode some others, the actual videos causing it are full length movies - I can easily encode some much smaller files with the same codecs tho00:32
n00bmonk3ywhat great idea :)00:32
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SpeedEvilIs mbarcode coring for others recently?00:32
V13nid0 ping00:33
cehteh.. so ext3:00:33
nid0im here00:33
cehteh.. vs fat00:33
V13nid0: all those: used to make media-player stuck with PR1.000:33
cehtehif you want to save half of the space, use ext300:33
SpeedEvilfat doesn't do holes00:34
cehtehif you want double speed, use ext400:34
V13I haven't tried them with PR1.100:34
DocScrutinizer51SpeedEvil: (bork vid play) shouldn't restart of some fsckng daemon suffice? rather than reboot00:34
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V13hm.. not with P1.0 but with the original fw... Haven't tried with PR1.0 either, but it should be the same00:34
cehtehSpeedEvil: yeah prolly and some other things00:34
nid0any idea on the codecs used? the file that causes the "invalid codec" error is an h.264 mp4, fair enough that the media player cant play it, but it then bombs out on an avi encoded with divx - the file loads, but then just sits at 0:00 doing nothing, pressing play again causes the little dots to go back and forward then return to the first blank frame not moving00:35
DocScrutinizer51how to spot sparse files?00:35
nid0then restarting the device lets the divx avi play fine00:35
fnordianslipnid0:  confirmed here00:36
nid0im just getting some small videos encoded with the same formats and ill put up a bugreporty00:36
cehtehDocScrutinizer: without a decent 'du' not easy on the n900 :)00:36
V13nid0: yes.. that was the case with all those files too.00:36
nid0did a bugreport exist for that do you know?00:36
nid0i've had a quick look but its a rather vague problem to track down in bugzilla00:37
V13i believe that i've seen that somewhere.. not sure00:37
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DocScrutinizer51cehteh: I,d guess there are other ways than du to tell if a file is sparse00:37
V13e.g this: ?
povbotBug 5949: H264 ipod 16:9 video doesn't playback on N900 maemo media player00:38
DocScrutinizer51cehteh: decent find e.g.?00:38
cehtehhehe ..00:38
nid0ah he's mentioned the issue as "Once you try to playback a file on the meamo player that fails, you need to00:38
nid0reboot the phone in order to get *any* video file to playback again.  Writing00:38
nid0that up as a separate bug.00:38
nid0oops, spam sorry00:38
DocScrutinizer51apt-get install findutils00:38
V13that's bug 5948 ?00:39
povbotBug N900 needs to be rebooted if media player fails to play video (h264dec)00:39
nid0and they closed it as worksforme - ill open another one with example videos00:39
DocScrutinizer51nid0: reopen the old ticket!00:40
V135948 is closed as fixed00:40
cehtehyes find should be able to do that00:40
DocScrutinizer51V13: so what. can't you reopen?00:40
nid0it links back quite a way00:41
nid05948 is closed as fixed due to 682300:41
nid0which lists it being fixed in an internal build00:41
V13I haven't test that with PR1.1 so.. no.. I won't reopen it. If nid0 does the test he can reopen it.00:41
nid0so hopefully 1.2 \o/00:41
DocScrutinizer51I thought 'fixed' tickets should get haspatch+testing, until eventually community reports a real fix00:43
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nid0that 6823 bug is rather vague, but 5948 is exactly what i'm seeing specific to h.264 profiles failing to play and has been linked as fixed due to the fix in 682300:43
DocScrutinizer51no way a ticket should be closed because of an unreleased internal fw version seen some patches00:44
nid0sorry bad wording, they arent closed but resolved00:44
DocScrutinizer51resolved!=testing , no?00:45
nid0though yeah frankly they could do with a qa category or similar and only actually mark bugs as resolved+fixed once the update fixing it is made public00:45
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nid0rather than setting them as resolved while it's still internal only, then closing it after it's public and tested00:46
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iPeter-Is there any way to use handsfree what is coming on N900 box to change current track to next?00:48
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arachnistiPeter-: no. the n900 doesn't support changing tracks via standard headphones00:51
arachnistiPeter-: bluetooth ones work, provided they support avrcp00:51
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jacekowskiarachnist: ?00:52
arachnistjacekowski: ?00:52
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jacekowskiarachnist: nvm00:52
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jacekowskiarachnist: it's you!!!00:52
arachnistwell, yes. it's me00:52
* satmd checks the barcode on the neck00:52
satmdyes yes he is00:52
pupnik_where is the /tmp folder for the n900 browser youtubes?00:54
DocScrutinizer51well, I think that's kinda bug mediaplayer doesn't support at least pause/play via wired hp-button00:54
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iPeter-arachnist: Okay, thanks. Getting annyoed to grab my phone from poket if there comes crap music :/00:54
arachnistiPeter-: well, don't put crap music on your device00:55
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satmdhm... remapping the volume buttons... an option?00:55
iPeter-dunno, maybe.00:55
iPeter-Damn. newest ovisuite wont work with the N900. On the Nokia's page it is listed as supported device.00:55
iPeter-satmd: Is it possible to remap it so they work only when plugged handfree?00:57
* DocScrutinizer51 installs evince. Mumbes "password protected... PFFF"00:57
jacekowskiarachnist: i knew it sounds kinda familiar00:57
satmduhm, I can't tell, I just came up with that idea00:57
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satmdhm, maybe that would be interesting to the person maintaining headphoned00:58
jacekowskibtw. have anybody managed to use fmtx as handsfree?00:59
DocScrutinizer51iPeter-: I don't think remapping ov volume(!)keys for skip fwd/back is a good idea - for a mediaplayer00:59
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DocScrutinizer51best you can get is play/pause with short press of hs-holdbutton. And any other function (skip to next?) for long press01:02
iPeter-DocScrutinizer51: Well, i dont use em when headphoned so.. why wouldnt it be. Still its not so good idea, i got a leather case, so pressing those buttons is kinda hard.01:03
iPeter-DocScrutinizer51: Yeah, that would be good but there aint any plugin for it?01:03
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DocScrutinizer51sorry can,t follow. please rephrase01:03
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iPeter-It would be good to have skip to next track from handsfree of hs-holdbutton.01:05
DocScrutinizer51anyway for holdbutton to work you need micbias voltage enabled. Means you probably need alsa/gstreamer/whatever to open the hs-mic01:05
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DocScrutinizer51mayb mediaplayer even would support it if only micbias would be enabled01:06
javispedrobah, anyone knows where the list of autojoin channels is in x-chat?01:07
javispedrofor a week I nearly forgot about the entire meego thingie01:07
* DocScrutinizer51 makes a mental postit note to check recorder with holdbutton01:07
DocScrutinizer51javispedro: in network01:08
javispedromakes sense :(01:08
javispedroDocScrutinizer: thanks.01:09
N900evilmenu xchat network list edit then connecting (2)01:10
javispedroyes, my brain needed to be remembered that it's a per-network setting.01:11
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tremnite all, sweet dreams01:13
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pupnik_cu trem01:16
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DocScrutinizer51Stskeeps: SpeedEvil: seen the batgauge N1130?01:28
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DocScrutinizer51seems there's no reason the batcharge guestimeater is doing such a crappy job01:29
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djkrikkeIt looks like mail for exchange or the other built in mail client don't actually 'ask' for connections01:41
djkrikkeif not connected to edge or wifi, they just don't get mail01:41
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DocScrutinizer51djkrikke: either N900 is connected to a network, or it's not. You can't expect mailer app to crank up a connection on it's own guess whenevr it thinks it needs01:47
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ali1234why not?01:48
pupnik_i want a good T.O.M.E roguelike on tablets01:49
pupnik_but the gfx needs redoing01:49
bnhwDo I need to specify _HILDON_NON_COMPOSITED_WINDOW for SDL windows?01:49
pupnik_got about 300 hours invested into that01:50
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bnhwjavispedro: I assume that applies to pygame too?01:51
javispedrobnhw: yes01:51
DocScrutinizer51djkrikke: either N900 is connected to a network, or it's not. You can't expect mailer app to crank up a connection on it's own guess whenevr it thinks it needs01:51
bnhwRight, okay, thanks. I might need to rethink the application then; I'm only getting a few fps.01:51
javispedroyou should fullscreen it the proper way, btw.01:52
javispedroif it's using the sdl fullscreening calls it's all OK.01:52
javispedrosince those were patched in maemo sdl.01:52
djkrikkeDocScrutinizer, on my previous devices it did01:53
djkrikkethe e71 just disconnects from edge when there's no activity, and checks mail each 30 minutes by connecting01:53
djkrikkethat's a huge advantage for battery life01:53
javispedronot sure about that.01:53
DocScrutinizer51djkrikke: nonsense01:54
djkrikkeok, why is that nonsense?01:54
bnhwjavispedro: Yeah, I'm going fullscreen the SDL-way. It's more likely to be all these floating-point calcs.01:54
ali1234windows mobile does the same thing01:54
cehtehconnectiing itself .. as in handshaking needs more power than a idle connection01:54
DocScrutinizer51there's no such disconnect from GPRS the way you suggest01:54
javispedrobnhw: yes, python was compiled with thumb and no vfp at all (on diablo at least, I never checked fremantle build options)01:54
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javispedrobnhw: as you can guess that sucks for fp01:54
javispedro(but check if that still keeps true for fremantle, though)01:55
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djkrikkeHmm, so an always connected gprs/wifi is better then checking each 30 minutes?01:55
javispedroalways connected wifi -- sure.01:55
javispedrodunno about gprs.01:55
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DocScrutinizer51djkrikke: yes01:56
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djkrikkethat's interesting01:56
nid0always connected wifi will = faster battery drain, disabling it either manually (wifi switcher in -testing) or automatically (autodisconnect in -devel) when not in use will give you battery improvements01:57
javispedronot if you're going to wake the thing every 30 minutes.01:57
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nid0well wifi switcher wont let even you poll automatically at least, but manually reenabling wifi whenever it's needed, even frequently, still gives me a massive power saving01:58
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javispedrowith my current beacon period and dtim settings, it's been 48h with wi-fi and still 60% battery on the N900. I hope I can beat the 1 week mark the N810 had :D01:59
DocScrutinizer51and for GPRS it's even "send a pop every 30min" vs "send login auth DHCP etc, then send POP3 every 30"01:59
djkrikkewhat is your beacon and dtim configuration javispedro?01:59
javispedrotesting with the usual 100ms, but DTIM=502:00
nid0i only just top 48h even with wifi disabled fully 95% of the time :<02:00
djkrikkeIve got the same problem nid002:00
djkrikkeoh wel..."problem"02:00
jacekowskimy n900 lasts for a day02:01
jacekowskiwhen i'm at work02:01
jacekowskias there is almost no signal there02:01
nid0im in a full signal area with 3g disabled anyway here, and manage about 24 hours with wifi on and idle :p02:02
jacekowskibesides, how much skype uses?02:02
javispedroIf I don't touch it anymore mine will get 3 and around 8 hours with wifi (interpolation)02:02
jacekowskibecause i don't really need it02:02
djkrikkeGonna try the device tomorrow with wifi, but I think that's the same I'll get nid0, based on my experiences this weekend02:02
jacekowskiand i could disable it02:03
djkrikkejacekowski, a friend of mine is always online on skype02:03
djkrikkehe doesn't notice a drain or something02:03
javispedroskype is one of the most heavy from the builtin plugins02:03
javispedrobut the heavieast plugins are still any of the non-nokia02:03
jacekowskixmpp is builtin?02:04
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jacekowskixmpp <-> skype transport02:04
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javispedrowith voice?02:04
djkrikkejavispedro, you used skype already?02:04
djkrikkefor calling02:05
javispedroyes, I'm using it.02:05
djkrikkeeven on edge it works really well02:05
javispedroit does random activity on network02:05
javispedrothus being heavy on the battery02:05
djkrikkebut I lost 20% batt when calling for half an hour02:05
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: then don't use skype.It's a HOG02:05
djkrikkeso that's killing :D02:05
javispedroI always mean idle.02:05
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javispedroI'm depressed with the active usage battery life on the N900.02:05
javispedroit just doesn't cut it.02:05
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javispedrobut idle seems to be fine.02:06
djkrikkeit's too much technology javispedro02:06
djkrikkeand too bad batteries02:06
javispedroand a smaller battery.02:06
jacekowskipower management sucks a lot02:06
nid0I really dont understand the reason for the weedy battery tbh02:06
jacekowskiit's not aggresive enough02:06
djkrikkeI guess I'm gonna buy a second battery in the future02:06
djkrikkeit's just doesn't feel right to remove the back cover each day02:06
djkrikkelooks like its going to brake every moment :x02:06
nid0the 1500mah battery in my e90 is the same volume as the n900's, and thats a 3 and a half year old design :<02:07
jacekowskinid0: what's a voltage on that battery?02:07
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nid03.7v same as the n90002:07
jacekowskibecause comparing mAh without knowledge of voltage is useless02:07
jacekowskiwell, that sucks then02:08
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: please make suggestions how to improve power management02:08
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: i would play with screen backlight settings02:08
javispedrooh, you can play as you want02:08
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: because most bright one is too bright02:08
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jacekowskiand second from top is too dark02:08
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: you're free to do that anytime02:09
javispedroone of my tests was limit cpufreq to 500Mhz, but didn't do much.02:09
javispedroa session with drnoksnes quickly empties a battery.02:09
jacekowskikeep processor at lower frequency02:09
jacekowskiand deschedlue apps that are in background02:09
javispedrothat's what I did.02:09
DocScrutinizerjavispedro: that's contraproductive02:09
javispedroDocScrutinizer: not sure.02:10
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javispedrobefore calling "race to idle" note my usecase.02:10
* GAN900 hopes crashanddie is publishing mwkn tomorrow.02:10
GAN900javispedro, race to idle!02:10
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pupnik_all the fun things i like to drain faster than the 81002:11
pupnik_but the speed is nice02:11
jacekowskibecause it looks like there is a lot of apps that are running in background, using processor cycles02:11
jacekowskiwhile there is no real need for it02:12
javispedrojacekowski: as I said, idle time is fine.02:12
cehtehthen these are bad programmed02:12
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: we don't want a windows2.0 kind of Monotasking02:12
DocScrutinizercehteh: exactly02:13
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jacekowskiand xorg is kinda heavy02:13
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shamusone roge demon can kill a battery fast02:13
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javispedrothe app that most appears in my charts when idle is .. skype... and it even does random network activity (p2p on a mobile device, genius!)02:14
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: you bet I want xchat to continue logging this chan, even while I'm checking sth in a xterm02:14
cehtehwell bit better userland support for fuzzy timers and devel educatio wold be nice02:14
shamusand when you have severla workign in tandom dam02:14
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: but it could be woken up only when it recieves some data02:14
jacekowskibut that's a problem with irc02:14
jacekowskiand pings there02:14
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: any sane app works exactly this way02:15
cehtehjacekowski: xchat does that already well02:15
cehtehskype is a pig02:15
djkrikkewill xchat use a lot of battery while being idle?02:15
DocScrutinizerpile o shit02:15
cehtehdjkrikke: no02:15
shamusi thugnt it did on the dilblo?02:16
DocScrutinizerI had xchat idle on 4 chan for 24h via wlan with one batcharge02:16
djkrikkeright, and what else was running on the phone?02:16
djkrikkeor was it just xchat02:16
DocScrutinizerdjkrikke: talking to me?02:16
javispedroit did not use much battery on diablo02:17
jacekowskii would have to compare idle idle battery usage vs normal usage idle02:17
djkrikkeDocScrutinizer: yes02:17
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cehtehi have xchat on 4 networks and 30 chans or so and barely notice it02:17
javispedrothe first versions were awfull on fremantle.02:17
cehtehof course recent xchat got some tweaks .. any you dont want to enable lag'o'meters and other crap02:17
jacekowskiwell, i run my irssi on screen on my server02:17
jacekowski 01:17:47 up 409 days, 20:53,  2 users,  load average: 0.46, 0.66, 0.6402:17
DocScrutinizerdjkrikke: well I had a short visit to youtube during that 24h. And some 10h of dim backlight and actively chatting in xchat02:17
jacekowskiand just get notifications via jabber when somebody highlights me02:17
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djkrikkeDocScrutinizer: I see02:18
djkrikkebut gotta go, it's getting late02:18
pupnik_#nethack has 260 users....02:18
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jacekowskijust wondering if using on screen keyboard instead of hardware one ( keyboard backlight ) would help02:18
DocScrutinizerdjkrikke: and of course mailer fetched every 10 minutes02:18
cehteh... i restored a backup (apllication list) but decided not to restore some apps02:19
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cehtehnow these stick in ham forever waiting to be reinstalled .. how can i purge that list?02:19
nid0badly need local subscription settings for imap folders tbh :(02:19
cehtehuse claws02:19
cehtehmodest support for imap is suboptimal02:19
DocScrutinizermodest is suboptimal02:20
jacekowskiclaws support MfE?02:20
cehtehi use it, but dont let it poll the mailbox02:20
jacekowskiactive sync02:20
cehtehwe talking about imap02:20
jacekowskiand i'm asking related question02:20
jacekowskifrom the other side02:21
DocScrutinizertbh I never cared about exchange02:21
jacekowskii can use MfE only for my contacts and calendar02:21
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jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: i use zimbra02:21
cehtehso how can i purge the apps-to-be-restored list?02:22
nid0is claws actually available for fremantle?02:22
DocScrutinizeryou know it's so er... redmondish02:22
shamusi use thunderbird on deshtop02:23
DocScrutinizernid0: [2010-03-01 01:19:45] <cehteh> use claws02:23
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* cehteh thinks about a notification plugin like for xchat for claws too :P02:24
DocScrutinizernid0: guess that implies it's available02:24
cehtehyes but not hildonized .. bit fiddly to sue02:24
nid0okay ill elaborate on my question... "I cant find claws being available for fremantle, it's not in the repo and only listed on both the claws site and as being available for upto os2008 - help?"02:24
nid0ill give the os2008 version a crack and see if it's usable even with the interface then, ta02:25
cehteh *** 3.7.3-1maemo4 002:25
cehteh        500 fremantle/free Packages02:25
jacekowski`0660: 11~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~02:25
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: I tried to see if I could find it by googling hte signal names - but nothing. Assuming it's of course present.02:26
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: that is not a final schematic02:26
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: err, context?02:26
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DocScrutinizeraaah, gaia02:26
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SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: no - the charge chip02:27
DocScrutinizerI guess it's part of the OMAP34xx chipset02:27
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: gaia is the twl403002:27
DocScrutinizerooh the charge chip02:27
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: you checked the BQ27xxx et al crap?02:28
SpeedEvilI recall finding no references to a charge monitoring chip on going through the bme source02:29
SpeedEviljust gaia adcs02:30
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: chargegauge prolly closed source02:32
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: seen any reference to the test pads?02:32
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DocScrutinizeror they left it out completely, due to rushing sw to shipping ? ;-P02:33
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: not exactly02:33
SpeedEvilThis is not the final rev. Forex - USB is wrong02:33
DocScrutinizerhow is it wrong, how do you tell?02:33
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: it says a/b02:34
DocScrutinizeryep, noticed that02:35
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: and wires the ID line to gaia.02:35
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: also the test pads on the back are wrong02:35
DocScrutinizerso why do you think ID isn't wired to gaia02:36
SpeedEvilCheck page 17 against the device back02:36
SpeedEvilBecause there is no ID pin02:36
pupnik_whoever ported "telnet" thx02:36
SpeedEvilin a microb jack02:36
* DocScrutinizer graps the big torch02:36
DocScrutinizerand loupe02:36
DocScrutinizerit *clearly* has FIVE pins02:37
SpeedEvil But look at J2000 on the page 17. With battery on right, it's the bottom left of the four groups of test pads.02:37
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SpeedEvilThe diagram has 5 pads, the device 6, and the arrangment differs02:38
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DocScrutinizerNo doubt that's not the final MP schem02:38
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DocScrutinizerIf only I had a decent flatbed scanner and a top notch camera for macro shots02:40
DocScrutinizerI'd rip the device right away02:40
V13you're still looking for the usb host thing or just exploring ?02:40
SpeedEvilAlso the components round the SD card are wrong02:40
SpeedEvilV13: both02:41
DocScrutinizerstill hoping to get usb hostmode, yes02:41
V13is there *any* reason to believe that usb-host can be achieved? despite what insiders say?02:41
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DocScrutinizeryes there is: the "insiders are of poor EE knowledge02:42
SpeedEvilV13: the reason is basically all the reasons that have been raised why it can't work seem to be flawed.02:42
DocScrutinizeror exactly zero EE knowledge02:42
V13hm..  so you're trying to find *how* it is disabled ?02:42
DocScrutinizerthat's easy02:42
SpeedEvilIt's seeming likely at this point that it's not enabled.02:42
SpeedEvilRather than disabled.02:42
DocScrutinizerkernel module obviously missing02:42
jo-erlendany sync gurus? I had an N95 which I synced against Funambol. Now, I have an N900 and I want to get the data back. I also want to sync against my Evolution on some laptops and a desktop. How do I go about getting this? N900 doesn't support Funambol for sync.02:43
V13i don't think so02:43
SpeedEvilAnd with the right software to handle the enabling, it should 'just work'.02:43
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: ack02:43
DocScrutinizerthat's how I get those non-final schem as well02:44
V13before n90 was released, at that huge usb-otg thread, the first argument was that to get usb certification it needed not to be able to both charge from usb and provide power at the same time because it would be able to use two different cables for the same port, which was not acceptable for certification.02:44
V13do i remember wrong ?02:44
jacekowskiwell that's not really true02:44
SpeedEvilThat was after launch.02:44
jacekowskibecause you can provide and draw power02:44
jacekowskibut that would require more circuitry inside02:44
V13no no..02:45
DocScrutinizerthat's exactly the type of hearsay you get from those "insiders"02:45
V13they said it already did that. but the disabled it to get the certification02:45
jacekowskii think neo1973 does02:45
V13they said the h/w was capable of doing so02:45
SpeedEvilV13: I've gone and read the emails in detail - and it doesn't quite say that.02:45
* V13 searches02:45
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: wrong, and wrong02:45
SpeedEvilneo can't supply USB power02:46
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: neo FR does support charging and powered host mode. And it provides hostmode while charging02:46
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DocScrutinizernoe1973 can't02:46
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V13this one:
jacekowskiAvailable power in host mode is the full maximum of 500mA according to USB-specifications on the Neo FreeRunner, and no power is available in host mode on the Neo 1973. If your USB device respects USB-standards and consumes not more than 500mA, you may connect it directly to your Neo FreeRunner.02:47
V13"One of them being that the certification with A connector can be passed02:47
V13 only if full functionality is provided by the SW."02:47
V13"In this case I propose that complaints are directed to the USB02:47
V13 consortium. I have really come to doubt that it's actually protecting02:47
V13 the consumers' interests in nowadays scenario."02:47
jacekowskifreerunner can provide power02:47
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: why you're quoting me? :-P02:47
V13"Add to that several HW bugs that were discovered during the development02:47
V13 and needed workarounds."02:47
SpeedEvilV13: that can be read as we diddn't put on the A connector02:47
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* V13 doesn't insist02:48
SpeedEvilV13: the workarounds mentioned are related to charger detection AIUI, and are not directly related.02:48
SpeedEvilThe basic fundamental is.02:49
DocScrutinizeryeah, USB2.0-carger-supplement is a bitch02:49
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: what i've done to you02:49
SpeedEvilThe USB PHY chip has two wires that go to the USB data port. These are the D+ and D- pins.02:49
SpeedEvilThey support - through internal configuration of the PHY chip - USB host mode and USB device mode.02:50
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: you quoted my statement on Neo FreeRunner hostmode and power :-D02:50
DocScrutinizerfrom om wiki02:50
SpeedEvilThere are no external components required between the PHY chip and the USB socket.02:50
DocScrutinizerjacekowski: thanks! :-D02:50
jacekowskiDocScrutinizer: btw. why nokia cares about usb certification?02:51
SpeedEvilThe USB PHY chip can be switched into 'host' or 'device' mode - well really it's lower level than this, it doesn't know.02:51
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DocScrutinizerthat's a really good question02:51
V13it's easy02:51
V13(a) to be able to say "usb" and be to conform with the E.U. rule about usb charging02:51
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: it's probably not following the agreement to do USB chargers if it's not USB certified.02:51
V13else it would be a proprietary connector02:52
DocScrutinizeroooh yes02:52
DocScrutinizer~lart China02:52
* infobot hits China with an anvil and laughs with a contralto voice ... Haha Ha HA Ha02:52
DocScrutinizer~lart EU02:52
* infobot readies the nuke launcher and fires some rounds at EU02:52
SpeedEvilI wish a better connector than microb had been picked.02:52
V13the 1.000.000 euros question is: what will the next one have ?02:53
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: see your own reasoning02:53
jacekowskithey could do same trick as atmel did with i2c02:53
jacekowskiand call it spi02:53
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer by whoever was stanardising on a connector I mean02:53
jacekowskiand i'm going at 01:00 to sleep - again02:53
jacekowskigood night everybody02:54
V13it's 02.54 here...02:54
* V13 leaves too02:54
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: aaah I C02:54
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Lumpio-I just realized that the browser and the USB port are called the same02:54
DocScrutinizernight sleepers02:54
Lumpio-This is a conspiracy02:54
SpeedEvilLumpio-: A conspiracy of the microbes!02:55
DocScrutinizernot exactly. the receptacle is a micro-B at best02:55
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DocScrutinizerand next one calling it microb will get spammed by me with packets full of BGA chips - have fun with the black guys02:56
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SpeedEvilmicrob usb port!02:57
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* SpeedEvil wants to practice his soldering.02:57
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: you're off the list - they are after you already :-P02:57
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DocScrutinizernevertheless if you want a handfull of those crunchy buggers, just query me02:58
DocScrutinizergot a bagfull - literally02:59
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cehtehDocScrutinizer: micro usb sockets?03:04
DocScrutinizerBGA chips and similar crap03:04
cehtehheh ok03:04
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cehtehbtw did you figured out how/where it mounts the uSD? .. otherwise i grep that out03:05
cehtehgoing for ext3 there too03:05
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DocScrutinizer/media/card iirc03:07
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cehtehi meant the scripts which do that03:07
cehtehwell i figure out by myself03:07
DocScrutinizernah, not yet03:07
DocScrutinizergrep is your friend ;-)03:07
cehtehand in a while i can do the 'du' game over my mp3 collection .. i am sure there are no sparse files03:07
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cehtehrsyncing right now03:07
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DocScrutinizerYeah I wouldn't see how such a fraking amount of sparse space could creep in to a mp3 files collection03:10
cehtehwell .. thousands of small map tiles are actual an important use-case for me .. saving 60% space is important .. but i have no idea how they become sparse too, jpg and png is compressed03:12
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DocScrutinizerther's little use for files with holes as well03:12
DocScrutinizeron tiles03:12
cehtehi dont care to find the exact cause out, io speed sux already .. maybe one of the next nights03:12
cehtehmaybe there is some biggier sqlite db .. but hum ...03:13
cehteheven that shouldnt be that sparse .. i really dont know03:13
cehtehwill see with the mp3's later, still copying, that takes some time03:13
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sobczykhi, why I can't select multiple photos in picasa with shift?03:16
cehtehmissing feature at best03:16
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sobczykand why I can't find firefox in app manager, I have extras-devel03:22
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GAN900Depressing Modest quoting.03:24
DocScrutinizerGAN900: ??03:25
GAN900DocScrutinizer, was going to reply to an email on here, but Modest's useless quoting put me off.03:26
DocScrutinizeraah yes :-S03:26
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DocScrutinizerheh, Haiti, now Chile. Is it just me or are those quakes getting more frequent and harder ?03:28
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DocScrutinizer(not as OT as it might sound - I'm sure there's a lot of usefull apps that could get their own "emergency management" category03:30
cehtehmaybe just coincidence03:31
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cehtehmy wifes parents send some pics ... cracks in the walls, tumbled furniture03:32
cehteh... from valparaiso03:32
DocScrutinizerSanFran, the impacts home in03:33
cehtehwell nothing *really* dramatic happend ...03:33
sobczykfix for no firefox in manager, anyone?03:34
cehtehthe richterscale is logarithmic .. meaning the chile earthquake was almost 100 times as strong as the one in haiti ...03:34
cehtehlooking at that they are really lucky (or better say they where prepared) that nothing worse happend03:34
cehtehof course its worse enough still03:35
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cehtehSanFran is very high on the big earthquake list .. looking at history, the next big bang there is overdue already03:38
cehteheveryone knows that it *will* happen .. just not when03:38
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DocScrutinizerheh, if Nokia were more alert and smart, they'd throw together navit, tangogps (with online location tracking), xchat (with option for hardcoded hidden channel passwords), (video) conferencing, and a few http bookmarks and other usefull stuff -  then flash that to a 1000 N900 and supply to all the emergency response and rescue teams worldwide03:59
DocScrutinizerthe ones in action04:00
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booleani would like to clear up some space on my N800 ( runnign maemo 5 ), is there a way to see what apps are dependant on what libs?04:08
booleani figure some apps install libs but do not remove them when uninstalled ...04:08
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ptlwould it be possible to use to play a different tune, instead of blocking the call?04:10
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DocScrutinizerboolean: maemo5 on N800?04:14
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DocScrutinizerptl: I wasn't aware of callblocker. :-D The main problem I expect you'll face is to change the ringtone "on the fly". Maybe you could kill the process playing the original ringtone, then launch a player for your customized one. Stopping this one in the right moment is probably very difficult though04:18
booleanhmm.. interesting ..04:19
booleanone of the software tools ( advanced-power ) notes that it is 5,204:19
booleanbetter yet ... 5.2008.43-704:20
DocScrutinizerptl: I did a little investigating on this some weeks ago. Alas I couldn't fins any dbus msg that looked like ringtone-related04:20
booleani believe tis the latest -> fremantle04:20
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rasterboolean:  thats not maemo504:21
* DocScrutinizer cranks up installer/updater on N81004:21
rasterwell not the maemo5 thats on n90004:21
DocScrutinizermoin rasterman04:21
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rasterlast i knew the n800 fw images were all os200804:22
rasterDocScrutinizer:  'avo :)04:22
booleanNokia-N800-43-7:/etc#cat osso_software_version04:22
booleanso nope .. not fremantle04:23
DocScrutinizerDiablo != Fremantle04:23
arachnistraster: some were os2007, afair. at least that's what it originally came with04:23
booleanyup .. just klewed in :)04:23
DocScrutinizerseems to me like diablo seen no updates neither OS nor apps, for at least 6 months04:26
booleandunno ... i haven't played with my device for a long time04:26
booleanhell I only discovered the FM radio ability the other day :P04:26
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booleanthen again .. what is with all the Maemo 5 on the main page of
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DocScrutinizerI'm pretty sure the 810 doen't have any04:28
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rasterarachnist:  originally - yes, and 2008 updates got u.. 2008...04:28
rasteri havent heard of any maemo5 for n800/81004:28
DocScrutinizerboolean: maemo5 aka Fremantle is N900 (for now)04:28
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DocScrutinizerboolean: seems nokia has no plans to backport Fremantle to devices<90004:30
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DocScrutinizerthis might change ith meego04:30
booleanwell there seems to be something to do with diable being version 5 otherwise i would not have that version mentioned in the /etc/osso_software_version04:30
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DocScrutinizeroh well, don't ask me about those version numbers04:31
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booleanheh ...04:32
cehtehmhm there is some io congestion problem04:32
booleanok then what about dependancies?04:32
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booleanok packageview might do the trick ... sorta04:39
ptlDocScrutinizer: sorry, I was taking a bath. Yeah, I expect to find that, a dbus message that could allow me to change the ringtone on-the-fly. :(04:39
ptl*I expected04:40
cehtehmaybe gconf .. but on the fly .. maybe not04:42
cehtehi was also thinking about hooking music into the alarm clock04:42
booleancehteh: i thought the default clock applet does that already04:43
cehtehat least i didnt found out without tweaks04:43
cehtehuhm 78% iowait .. has this emmc high latency ...04:45
cehtehbetter dont ask -- its mmc/sd after all :/04:45
booleankewl .. what tool did u use to get that ?04:45
cehtehdoesnt top show that already? .. its somewhere in proc too04:46
cehtehi use iostat04:46
booleanand here I was thinkign along the lines of sar or vmstat04:47
cehteh /proc/stat has the counters .. you have to calculate percentage04:48
DocScrutinizercehteh: go on, finally check if there's a go or a no-go on /home/usr/ and /home/var. You're used to flashing your device now ;-P04:49
cehteh /home is already ext3 so whats the problem04:49
cehtehand no, i dont want to flash again04:49
DocScrutinizerthe problem is /usr on /04:50
DocScrutinizerand /var04:50
cehtehwell i can copy that over and bind-mount it04:50
cehtehbut that makes not that much sense .. thats something nokia should have done and spare us all the optify stuff04:50
cehtehnow its already fuba .. fixing that here wont help much04:51
DocScrutinizerit'll help with all the non-optifiable stuff, like cmdline tools etc04:51
cehtehi rather wonder why io becomes so congested04:51
cehtehrsync starts very fast (cough) 5-7mb sec  the device follows that04:52
cehtehand then it drops down to 500k/sec after some time and the device becomes sluggish04:52
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cehtehand the io on the device becomes even worse04:52
cehtehi ctrl-z then wait for it to recover and continue04:53
DocScrutinizerbuffers run out. So bufferd inodes need to be written to flash04:53
cehtehmemory pressure is not very high .. lots of free memory04:53
cehteh echo 1 >/proc/sys/vm/vfs_cache_pressure04:54
cehteh   lets see04:54
DocScrutinizerwon't help when some io-scheduler decides not to use that free space04:54
DocScrutinizernoatime might help a lot (dunno if you mounted everything noatime)04:55
cehtehactually i run systems with vfs_cache_pressure = 1 often .. but that usually needs enough ram04:55
cehtehof course04:55
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cehtehwell commit=600 ... but it should flush the log when its full anyways04:56
cehtehvfs_cache_pressure didnt improved it04:57
cehtehi set it to 200 .. since no much ram and reading from flash should be not too slow (but well this is sd ...)04:58
cehtehwell and this affects only bulk writes which rarely happen04:58
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cehtehmhm yes the commit interval fixes it .. starts slower but sustains the speed05:00
cehtehhey ext4 was much faster than ext305:01
DocScrutinizerhmm, obviously a tradeoff between fast bursts and somewhat lower but constant sustainable performance05:02
cehtehwell the main idea was to wear (and fragment) the mmc less ..05:03
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cehtehi once made a CF card based system with a friend where we tuned laptop mode up to 1 week .. means it only written to flash when something wanted to sync or things got really tight05:04
DocScrutinizererr, with ext4?05:04
cehtehnah that was long ago ext2 or ext305:04
DocScrutinizer(the main idea)05:05
cehtehwith ext4 you have to increase the commit interval as well .. and you have to know the consequences :)05:05
cehteh$ du -s /media/mmc1/Music MyDocs/Music05:06
cehteh6599552 /media/mmc1/Music05:06
cehteh6589060 MyDocs/Music05:06
cehtehhey look ext3 needs little more space05:06
cehtehstill wondering about the case with the map tiles05:07
* DocScrutinizer ponders kooking a sync to backlid (aka hotswap detector) switch. Being a battery powered device there's really few that can make it cease operation inadvertedly05:08
* cehteh looks now where this mount stuff hides05:10
arachnistunder the bed. it's afraid of monsters05:15
DocScrutinizercehteh: you know, if you can detect the oonly possible way to kill the system (bat removal) in advance, you can sync and set commit interval to 50ms. When backlid in place you can go back to hours of commit time05:15
cehtehwell .. you remove the bat for a reset when the system/kernel is stuck anyways05:17
cehtehat least i do05:17
cehtehso prolly the sync wont find its way05:17
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DocScrutinizerthen it's pointless anyway. But for normal operation you don't need to bother about sudden power failure05:18
DocScrutinizermuch less than even for a server without UPS05:18
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booleancehteh: u symlinked /media/mmc1/Music to MyDocs/Music ?05:20
cehtehif you would be a nokia engineer you would earn some good karma for implementing this .. if you are a community member who does this only on his own device and otherwise knows the results of a battery removal this would mean its pointless too05:20
cehtehboolean: no copied05:20
cehtehwant to reformat the uSD05:21
booleanahh ..05:21
cehtehTemporary failure resolving ''05:21
cehtehapt-get install host05:21
cehteh... thinkin ... damnit :P05:22
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DocScrutinizercehteh: (pointless) agree :-D05:22
DocScrutinizercehteh: I'm not a *Nokia* engineer (yet?)05:23
cehtehi'd really wish the kernel and base system guys would show up here sometimes05:23
DocScrutinizercehteh: nevertheless you spotted my profession quite to the point05:23
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cehtehmhm time for reboot05:25
cehtehor .. lets restart the vpn ...05:25
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anotnacanyone know best media manager to use for tagging music and art, i've tried a couple but it just ignores my hours of effort i've put and shows like before, it can be pc or n900 i just need something05:27
tank-mani use amarok  on pc05:28
tank-manand easytag to fill tags05:28
anotnacis easytag pc too?05:29
tank-manamarok also fills/edits tags05:31 is an alias for
cehteh.. i suspected it05:32
anotnacthanks tank-man i'll give them a try05:32
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DocScrutinizercehteh: yep. that's no secret though05:33
cehtehjust wondering why its sometimes so unreliable .. akamai ought to be reliable05:34
DocScrutinizerduh, yeah05:35
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Andrewfblackis auto builder down?05:36
cehtehheh ... seems more than that is down05:36
cehtehand i forgotten to install sshfs05:36
Andrewfblackdoc how would you check to see if autobuilder was donw on that site its not a website05:37
DocScrutinizerhmm yes05:38
cehtehAn error occurred while processing your request.05:38
cehtehReference #97.5dee9c3e.1267414685.64f1f45f05:38
cehteh.. thanks :)05:38
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crashanddieGeneralAntilles: ping05:39
cehteh  81B/s .. yay i get some bytes :)05:40
crashanddieGeneralAntilles: ping me ASAP, only 2h20 left before next issue goes live05:41
dracflamlochey guys, anyone tried running crawl on n900?05:42
dracflamlocit says the terminal isnt large enough05:43
dracflamlocany way to increase the cols/lines05:43
DocScrutinizertmo down05:43
DocScrutinizeror maybe not05:44
cehtehtmo is up for me05:44
cehtehbut i want the repos!05:45
DocScrutinizeruse jebba's mirror?05:47
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sheepbatreduce the font size, dracflamloc ?05:47
sheepbatuse the zoom/volume buttons05:47
sheepbator use the terminal app's menu05:47
pupnik_time.  keeps flowing like a river....05:49
* dracflamloc smacks self05:51
cehtehDocScrutinizer: take a look at etc/rc1.d/K30ke-recv & friends .. dsme handles the mounting05:52
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DocScrutinizercehteh: errhem, let's look at that05:54
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cehtehetc/init.d/ke-recv  actuall05:54
cehtehnothing to see here, move along05:54
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crashanddieI love it when admins put files in your home directory, that you'll need to execute specific scripts05:56
crashanddiebut they only test with their own credentials, and gently forget to give you rights to access the files :)05:56
crashanddiecat: ~/.required-file: Permission denied05:57
crashanddiewoohoo \o/05:57
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DocScrutinizercrashanddie: LOL06:04
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DocScrutinizercrashanddie: is it root:users 710  maybe?06:05
crashanddieDocScrutinizer: nha, username:users 70006:05
crashanddie710 I would've been able to read it06:05
cehtehexactly .. message "Speicherkarte beschädigt" ... pff06:07
cehtehOS defect i'd say06:07
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cehtehi wonder if the ke-recv does anything else important except usb connection detection and backlid .. lets see what happens when i stop it06:09
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crashanddiecehteh: isn't  it just saying "memory card damaged" ?06:13
crashanddiecehteh: format and go?06:13
cehtehi formatted it to ext3 and be happy06:13
crashanddieso where exactly does it give this error?06:14
cehtehprolly at boot (didnt tried) and when you remove and reapply the backlid06:14
cehtehas yellow banner06:14
cehtehi stopped this nagging daemon now .. lets see06:15
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crashanddieit's hardly a lid -- more like a cover06:15
cehtehok .. i discoverd a daemon i dont need :P06:16
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PavelAre there any text editors on N900 or in the extras that can open files outside of MyDocs?06:21
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cehtehfrom terminal and as root you can access anything06:21
cehtehi have nano and emacs installed06:22
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Pavelcehteh: Installed from where?06:22
cehtehemacs from external .. and nano is in some repo .. devel perhaps06:22
cehteharrgs xchat...06:23
PavelAlso, does anyone know why /var/lib/gconf and all its contents are world-readable and writable?06:23
cehtehwell google for n900 emacs06:23
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cehtehwho cares .. this is a single user device06:23
luke-jrcehteh: and that is why Maemo fails06:24
cehtehwell ..06:24
cehtehthere are so much other things i would have to fixed first06:24
luke-jrbad logic :D06:24
PavelThat is true, but the problem is that if attackers can exploit a flaw in a program that runs as any user whatsoever, they can mess with the configuration however they want.06:25
crashanddiejust type "sudo gainroot"06:25
crashanddieand mess with any configuration you want06:25
pupnik_or "root"06:25
crashanddiehell, it takes under 20s to pick up your phone, open the terminal and type rm -fr /06:26
sar3thi love that06:26
sar3thctrl+shift+x ftw06:26
luke-jrcrashanddie: that won't do much damage06:26
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crashanddieluke-jr: it'll kill your bootloader for one06:26
PavelAn exploit can often read or overwrite a file without being able to execute arbitrary code.06:26
jo-erlenddoes anyone know if there are any table stands I can buy for my N900 if I want to use it as a camera?06:27
crashanddieeither stop pasting wikipedia, or say things that are related to the conversation, thanks06:27
ShadowJKoh great, my n900 is sometimes not recognizing charger now :)06:28
luke-jrcrashanddie: why would it?06:28
PavelAnd the odd thing is, gconfd-2 actually runs as root, so there is no need for the directory to be accessible to anyone else.06:28
crashanddieluke-jr: ?06:28
cehtehcrashanddie: yes exactly .. but to protect it against such stuff it needs more06:28
luke-jrcrashanddie: non-root can't kill the bootloader06:28
cehtehi dont care if somone deletes the system stuff on my phone because it can be reinstalled06:28
luke-jrcrashanddie: and that's assuming BusyBox rm is less sane than GNU rm and actually accepts / as a target06:28
crashanddieluke-jr: did you miss my point about sudo gainroot?06:28
cehtehbut my personal data will be always accessible to 'user'06:29
luke-jrcrashanddie: that adds up to over 20s06:29
crashanddieluke-jr: GNU rm takes /* as a parameter, woopdidoo06:29
crashanddieluke-jr: want to do a typing contest ;)?06:29
luke-jrcrashanddie: yeah. I'd rm a file named '*' in /06:29
DocScrutinizercehteh: ""FAT32, the data took 3.1GB. On ext2, it took 2.5GB""
crashanddieluke-jr: I suggest you try it, you'd be surprised06:30
luke-jrcrashanddie: if 'rm /*' does anything else, then it is the exact same thing as 'rm /bin /boot /dev /etc /home /lib /media /mnt /opt /proc /root /sbin /sys /tmp /usr /var'06:30
cehtehDocScrutinizer: i am finished, all ext3 now .. doing backup and then kick out this ke-recv daemon (update-rc.d .. remove)06:30
luke-jrcrashanddie: why would someone special-case the latter? :)06:30
luke-jrI suppose it might be sane to refuse to rm anything if any target contains a procfs06:31
cehtehcrashanddie: a fingerprint reader would be nice on a phone, not perfectly secure but you are mostly aware when somone gained access, either by missing a finger or ther brutality06:31
luke-jrcehteh: fingerprint readers are trivial to fool06:32
cehtehi dont like typing passwords in public places that can be easily spied06:32
crashanddiecehteh: biometrics is inherently broken by design06:32
cehtehnah .. they have some use ... but are overrated06:32
luke-jrcehteh: find a better method.06:32
luke-jrsuch as the webcam06:32
cehtehas long you are in control AND you are aware that this is not a perfect method its ok06:32
crashanddiecehteh: then use secure tokens -- one piece of information you know, and one piece of information you have. If either goes missing, no problem.06:33
cehtehfor example i use the fingerprint reader on my lattop to unlock 'sudo' ... since i often demo things to people and dont want to enter passwords in front of their eyes06:33
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crashanddieif both go missing, you do have a problem -- but then again the process would be to kill the credential as soon as one goes missing06:33
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crashanddiecehteh: which means that just by taking your glass, dusting off your laptop or area around the fingerprint scanner I can get access to sudo06:34
luke-jrcehteh: also, I bet the N900 has a mic06:34
cehtehfor a device like the n900 a fingerprint reader would imo already being an advantage over touchscreen the passcode06:34
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crashanddiepublic information should not be for authentication06:35
crashanddiecehteh: it may be your opinion, but you'd be wrong06:35
luke-jrcrashanddie: easier than that, IIRC06:35
cehtehcrashanddie: there are different demands for authentication06:35
luke-jrcrashanddie: just put jello over your finger and press :)06:35
luke-jrcehteh: use voice or facial recognition06:36
crashanddiecehteh: no, there's not. We need to stop thinking of biometrics as a form of authentication, no matter how strong or weak your needs are06:36
cehtehentering a password is easier spyable even from distance with a hd cam than getting access to the hardware and find and copy a usable fingerprint .. at least thats the case for my laptop06:36
crashanddiethat includes fingerprints, iris, voice, behavioural, dna, etc06:36
jo-erlendI don't like the single user philosophy of Maemo. Even if the device is only supposed to be used by a single person (why is that, btw), it would make sense to use a sane configuration.06:36
luke-jrcehteh: you don't even need a fingerprint06:36
cehtehvoice or facial is as strong as fingerprints or maybe less .. neither is perfect06:37
luke-jrcehteh: far stronger06:37
crashanddieluke-jr: not really06:37
cehtehcrashanddie: i agree when it comes to authentication for very important or public things .. like passports, banking and so on06:37
crashanddiegod damn it06:37
crashanddiecehteh: read what the fuck I'm saying06:37
jo-erlendhey come on... Go write an EEG PAM-module instead of complaining on irc :)06:38
jo-erlendEEG is  very secure. :)06:38
cehtehyeah .. this laptop is *my* device .. i dont care about what you think how i should protect MY device06:38
Paveljo-erlend: I find myself increasingly agreeing with you...06:38
luke-jrjo-erlend: not really06:38
cehtehits my data, my responsibility ..06:38
crashanddiecehteh: *no* biometrics should be used for any kind of authentication. Whether it's your granny's vista computer, your laptop, or FBI underwear. Use it for identification -- sure.06:39
cehtehif you would demand me to use my fingerprint for anything else i would reject06:39
jo-erlendluke-jr, not really? Elaborate please.06:39
luke-jrcrashanddie: don't use it for ID either06:39
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crashanddieluke-jr: it's fine for ID06:39
luke-jrjo-erlend: crashanddie: you assume an identity is tied to a human person06:40
cehtehcrashanddie: sorry you are wrong .. you have absolutely no reason and right to give me advice for my personal things there06:40
jo-erlendluke-jr, are you trying to tell me that my mind doesn't belong to my person?06:40
cehtehand in lack of better alternatives (in usability) i feel comfortable with it06:40
luke-jrjo-erlend: I'm trying to say that users do not always tie directly to humans :P06:41
Paveljo-erlend: Regarding Maemo design decisions, that is.06:41
crashanddiecehteh: are you a security expert?06:41
jo-erlendPavel, I got that.06:41
cehtehcrashanddie: other thnigs on my laptop like the harddisk encryption dont use fingerprints06:41
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jo-erlendluke-jr, then you're saying that EEG shouldn't be used to identify a non-human user? :)06:41
cehtehcrashanddie: i dont need to be a security expert for my personal responsibilities06:42
Paveljo-erlend: Other things, I'd have to think about.06:42
cehtehif i decide to leave my house open its my decision06:42
cehtehthats completely unrelated to security06:42
luke-jrjo-erlend: I'm saying that human entities should be able to get a new identity on demand. :)06:42
crashanddiecehteh: I'm talking about you you self-omnibulated goon06:42
cehtehits my personal freedom how i manage my personal space06:42
jo-erlendluke-jr, really? Isn't that what we call being schizofrenic? :)06:43
crashanddiecehteh: I'm talking on a general level, "it is wrong for the industry, TV and movies to believe that biometrics are any good"06:43
cehtehi dont say you must use fingerprints to authenticate yourself06:43
luke-jrjo-erlend: more like multiple personality disorder, but that's at a different level of abstraction :)06:43
cehtehcrashanddie: i quite much agree with that06:43
luke-jrjo-erlend: think anonymity06:43
jo-erlendluke-jr, why would you like to become a different human being in order to use your phone?06:43
luke-jrjo-erlend: I wasn't specifically referring to phone.06:44
crashanddiecehteh: that was my only point, sorry if I didn't shoot it across more clearly06:44
cehtehif people dont have control about how they manage their own security and are forced to things which might be non optional then its bad06:44
cehtehbut look at the n900 .. how do you authenticate to the device currently06:44
crashanddieyou don't?06:45
jo-erlendluke-jr, anonymity? Why would you want that? Good encryption makes sure nobody can get to your files and since your brain patterns would change if you were forced, using EEG would protect you from that as well. :)06:45
crashanddieI mean, whether it's an N900 or another phone (except for blackberries), there's hardly authentication required06:45
crashanddiejo-erlend: only temporarily06:45
jo-erlendcrashanddie, how is that?06:45
luke-jrjo-erlend: only for a limited subset of 'forced'06:45
crashanddiejo-erlend: the whole point about encryption is that you're putting a temporary lock on it. You know that the lock will be broken in due time, however accept the risks06:46
cehtehwhy except blackberries .. i do the same with my n900 what others to with their blackberries06:46
crashanddiecehteh: nha, blackberries have better security than the N90006:46
jo-erlendcrashanddie, if someone puts a gun to your head and sais: «Calm down and think happy thoughts!»... Would you be able to?06:46
cehtehi am considering encryption for the data and some strong authentication .. but i didnt found a good way yet06:46
crashanddiejo-erlend: I don't see the connection06:46
crashanddiecehteh: I'm working on SA06:47
jo-erlendcrashanddie, right. You should try to be more spesific.06:47
crashanddiejo-erlend: wtf?06:47
pupnik_i should encrypt old hard drives and send them to random .uk agencies06:47
cehtehcrashanddie: in what way?06:47
crashanddiejo-erlend: you're the one talking about putting a gun to my head... I was just commenting on the fact that encryption is inherently a time-based lock06:47
jo-erlendcrashanddie, I thought you were talking about the identification, not the encryption.06:47
luke-jrjo-erlend: "force" includes trickery06:48
jo-erlendluke-jr, pardon?06:48
crashanddiecehteh: providing a security hardware chip to the N90006:48
luke-jrjo-erlend: you can be tricked into decrypting data while someone is monitoring, in theory :)06:49
cehtehhuh? tpm like?06:49
crashanddiecehteh: something like that06:49
jo-erlendluke-jr, of course. In theory, I could become an astronaut and go live on mars...06:49
cehtehwell the problem is still usability06:49
crashanddiejo-erlend: again, it really depends what you're trying to protect. If the thing is so important that people would be willing to pull out a gun, and even go over the murder-line just to get to the data, you should've have been relying just on encryption06:49
jo-erlendluke-jr, your operating system shouldn't deny you the freedom to get fooled.06:50
luke-jrjo-erlend: just saying... you're not immune to ALL force06:50
jo-erlendluke-jr, still, it's far more secure than using a fingerprint. :)06:51
PavelActually, designing a system as explicitly single-user does confer some advantages, if you take advantage of it. You can, for example, get many of the benefits of SELinux without much of the complexity.06:51
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cehtehcrashanddie: at best such a chip can authenticate the device and provide key material for content on it .. but the user interface is the culprit .. how do you authenticate againt the device in a secure way in public places ..06:51
luke-jrjo-erlend: just makes the criminals focus on social engineering06:51
luke-jrwhich is the worst kind06:51
cehtehand how do you ensure that this authentication just last as long you are using the device for this task06:52
crashanddiecehteh: you should probably read on about two-factor authentication06:52
jo-erlendluke-jr, social engineering is much more expensive to buy though.06:52
cehtehi do that with my laptop .. but its inconvinient for a phone like device06:52
crashanddiecehteh: no it isn't06:52
cehtehto be seen06:53
crashanddieI guess you'll have to wait and see :)06:53
PavelSo, if, say, gconfd gets its own user, as does the web browser, (using suid) one could try to minimize the consequences of applications being compromised.06:53
cehtehcrashanddie: do you have a non-spyable way to enter some knowledge/key into the device?06:54
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* Pavel has half a mind to chmod -R o-x /var/lib/gconf to see what happens, since gconfd-2 runs as root, anyway.06:54
jo-erlendwhy is it so natural to assume that an N900 will only be used by one person?06:54
crashanddiecehteh: partially :)06:54
cehtehfor my laptop i dont need to authenticate that often, i can just hide and enter a passphrase06:54
crashanddiecehteh: what if I told you that the information you enter on the device isn't relevant to the attack?06:54
rasterfor every effort in "securing" the system there is a way to get around it... and it invariably adds pain for the user06:55
jo-erlendseems like a perfect multi-user tool to me.06:55
cehtehbut for a phone i consider this highly inconvinient06:55
crashanddieraster: yes, but the gain in pain doesn't increase as the gain in security. So for a little extra pain, you get a lot more security06:55
crashanddiecehteh: stop thinking like a laptop user :)06:55
cehtehwell in some way it will be relevant even if its onle otp06:55
rastercrashanddie: invariably most people are adverse to ANY pain06:55
cehtehyeah .. i wait and see06:55
Paveljo-erlend: I agree in principle. In practice, I can accept that limitation.06:55
jo-erlendPavel, why?06:56
crashanddiecehteh: nothing to do with OTP in this case06:56
cehtehotp was just an example06:56
rasterso any move that doesnt decrease painf rom where it is now is a bad move (ie its very unpopular and will have people just run screaming from your platform/app/device)06:56
Paveljo-erlend: Because it does need to function as a cell phone too...06:56
jo-erlendPavel, and..?06:56
rasteras long as you do it "just for me" - well you gave yourself that pain06:56
Paveljo-erlend: And the assumption may make some tasks easier.06:57
jo-erlendlike being the IT-administrator of the company?06:57
Paveljo-erlend: That said, I would love to see all of a user's configuration being stored in the home directory.06:57
Paveljo-erlend: No idea.06:58
crashanddieraster: there are a number of use-cases where we remove an unnecessary pain, make it more convenient for the user, and provide much better security06:59
jo-erlendPavel, for laptops and desktops, I've always felt it necessary to have one or more admin users, and then add unprivileged users to actually do stuff. If I had a company with a few hundred N900s, I think I'd prefer it if each user had his own user name, instead of sharing.06:59
cehteh.. lets see :)06:59
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* DocScrutinizer points to a modified form of captchas, like e.g 500 pictures with people known and unknown, and you tap the known ones07:00
DocScrutinizereacht time you use another picture07:00
crashanddieraster: on a normal desktop/laptop for example, using SSO which ties in to smartcard authentication can provide *huge* benefits. The passwords are dynamically managed and stored in a central repository, after being encrypted by the user credentials on the smartcard. The user doesn't even know what the credentials are (for Oracle, Outlook, etc)07:00
jo-erlendbut of course, from Nokias perspective, that just means that people should not ever share their computers, but the company should buy one for all personell who'd ever need to use one.07:00
cehtehDocScrutinizer: yeah there are some of this things .. show pets .. or whatever07:00
Paveljo-erlend: I agree. And, indeed, although Nokia calls it a "tablet", they still think of it as a cell phone.07:00
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crashanddieraster: if the user doesn't authenticate using his smartcard, he doesn't have access to his passwords -- neither do any attackers07:01
crashanddieraster: instead of having to manage, change, remember a dozen passwords (which usually are the same, or {basePassword}{month}07:01
Paveljo-erlend: One can imagine a "wireless tablet pool" the way a company might have a "laptop pool" for off-site tasks.07:01
cehtehi still dunno if that scales and wont be exploitable07:01
cehtehor rather i am quite sure it fails on that when it gets serious07:02
jo-erlendPavel, right.07:02
crashanddiecehteh: are you talking about my security or Pavel's?07:02
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cehtehabout DocScrutinizer' comment07:02
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DocScrutinizercehteh: if you lock on first fail, it's quite reliable07:02
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crashanddieraster: finally, the direct benefit is that there is only one single PIN to manage from a user's perspective, and it doesn't even need to be changed, just needs to have a specific complexity and then it can remain the same for the lifetime of the card (typically 2 to 5 years)07:03
cehtehyes but setting this up requires some pain .. the user has to supply a dozen or more photos of his family, pets, friends or whatever to a new device07:03
rastercrashanddie: still provides you a single point of failure - compromise the uzsers master passowrd + get card and presto. all passowrds compromised07:03
crashanddieraster: it's not a *single* point of failure07:04
cehtehand some things are guessable .. not for a accidental finder of the device but for a attacker targeting you07:04
crashanddieraster: you need the card AND the code07:04
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jo-erlendPavel, especially with new mobile broadband connections. You could use some centralized storage of users and data so that all users really could pick up an available N900 and use it as if it were a private one.07:04
cehtehfor my laptop i use a usb stick with a key on it and passphrase ..07:04
cehtehplus, the key on the usb stick is regenerated on each login .. so copies will be invalidated07:05
crashanddieraster: if you go to work and left your card at home, the good procedure that most of our customers implement is to immediately suspend that card, and issue a temporary card for that user -- once the user comes back with his real card, the card is unsuspended and the temporary card is recycled07:05
Paveljo-erlend: Well, Nokia missed an opportunity, then.07:05
crashanddieraster: if however the user loses his card, a simple phone call and all the credentials are frozen07:05
DocScrutinizercehteh: yes, but the simpler it looks, the easier any atacker will fail on a first easyminded try. Then device locks, and you need a realpassword to unlock07:05
cehtehDocScrutinizer: yes07:06
rastercrashanddie: getting the card is easy - its physical. steal it.07:06
cehtehmight be useful to some extent07:06
crashanddieraster: where do you live?07:06
rastergetting the code - simply video tape it being entered, watch it, or otherwise extort it out of a user07:06
rasteras users invariably forget passwords and write them on yellow stick-notes07:06
crashanddieraster: only if they have to manage tons of different passwords07:06
cehtehDocScrutinizer: the other question is how/when to unlock the device .. because you dont want constantly tapping some secrets in07:07
rasterdoes ti matter where i live? :)07:07
crashanddieraster: if it's something you type every single time you unlock your workstation, you tend to remember it07:07
cehtehbut it can be stolen or lost almost anytime07:07
crashanddieraster: yeah, because if you're in the right spot I can challenge you to steal one of my company's cards07:07
rastercrashanddie: and all u need to do is now compromise the workstation - trojan, virus etc. and bobs your uncle07:07
rasteras there is a 1 time password entry to unlock the other passwords07:07
rasteryou may as well just have 1 password for everything07:07
cehtehsome rfid or bluetooth precence would be nice for that07:07
crashanddieraster: you're oz right?07:07
cehtehas soon the device it farer aeay than some meters it locks for example07:08
crashanddieraster: whereabouts? I'm in QLD atm07:08
rasterbut a smart card wont helpu with a phone07:08
crashanddieraster: actually it will07:08
rasterand the statement is still true - invariably more security comes with more pain07:08
rastermore thigns to lug around (smartcards)07:08
rastermore things to lose07:09
rastermore thnigs to forget07:09
rasteretc. etc.07:09
crashanddieraster: less passwords to maintain07:09
rasterwhy maintain so many?07:09
crashanddie1 PIN + card versus 12 to 14 passwords07:09
rasteri only maintain 207:09
crashanddie(average in corp/gov)07:09
rasterwhy have so many07:09
rasterset them to be the same07:09
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rasteras effectively thats hwat u have with a smartcard07:09
crashanddieraster: so someone sniffs your password once and has access to your whole system07:09
rastercompromise that 1 pw and all are compromised07:09
crashanddieraster: so that's even easier than without a password, my point exactly07:10
cehtehimo passwords are among the worst ways to do auhtentication07:10
crashanddienow, gtfo and call me when you need a real security expert ;) www.actividentity.com07:10
cehtehthey are reasonable secure when done right .. but the usability has all kinds dark corners07:10
rastercehteh: having to type the fuckers in all the time is a pita07:11
rasterso int he end firefox ends up just rememebring them all for me07:11
rasterhell i have up with gdm login and passwords07:11
rastertoo much of a pita07:11
cehtehyeah same here, i consider websites (except a few like banking) rather unimportant07:12
rasterif u've physically gotten to my machine to try and log in - u already have too much access anyway07:12
cehtehi use uuids copy/paste when i have to register somewhere and let firefor remember them07:12
raster(reboot and tell grub to boot with init = /bin/bash or whatever07:12
rasteric an then go ps locking grub and thenbios can fix that07:12
cehtehwell my harddisk is encrypted07:12
raster(boot from another device - i have it set to boot off cd/dvd/usb storage if available anyway)07:12
rasterand so on07:12
rasterthe chain u havew to secure.. is a PAIN07:12
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cehtehand the laptop locks when i close the lid .. and i do that always when i leave it07:13
rasterso why pretend - may as well just boot in to my user and be done with it07:13
rastercehteh: can take hdd out :)07:13
rasterbut if u encyprt $HOME - thats pretty good07:13
cehtehencrypted i saied07:13
rasterstill is a pain tho07:13
cehtehits not07:13
PavelThe question I am interested in at the moment is how hard is it to compromise an N900 without direct physical access.07:13
cehtehfor me this is the ideal compromise07:13
rasterif i can get to your hdd - i can comproise your kernel and get your decrypt key for $HOME07:14
rasterPavel: by an attack or via trojans?07:14
cehtehPavel: that likely depends very much on what the user has running/installed07:14
raster(ie try and find an open/buggy service or kernel bug on tcp etc.)?07:14
cehtehi dont want to know all the flaws skype has07:14
rasteror u are more thinking buffer overflows via web browser etc.?07:14
cehtehplus microb07:15
cehtehand tons of community coded communication apps .. jabber, irc, whatever07:15
Pavelcehteh: Indeed.07:15
rastermy bet is that there are tonnes of flaws07:16
rasterthe vast majority - undiscovered.07:16
rasterin any sufficiently complex set of softywre - u will have bugs, and some of those will be "exploitable"07:16
cehtehi discovered a few days ago that ovi chat already makes suspicious connections07:16
Pavelcehteh: I was thinking those over and above a PC with a Debian installation and a comparable set of applications (a web browser, a Skype client, IM software, etc.).07:16
rasterthe question is - where are they and how many hoops do you - or the user, have to jump thru?07:16
DocScrutinizerraster: hw-pw-cryped HDD and pw in BIOS is reasonably safe07:16
cehtehDocScrutinizer: i trust open source kernel encryption more07:17
PavelDocScrutinizer: Depends on the threat model.07:17
rasterDocScrutinizer:  for full hdd - yes. but for $HOME - that'd be done via the kernel - thus its trappable if the kernel can be compromised07:17
cehtehwell treat model ..07:17
rasterand if u have access to the machine for just long enouhg07:17
Pavelraster: Or your keyboard.07:17
cehtehno one knows if ibm has some master key for example07:17
DocScrutinizerraster: I said HW-pw-crypted hdd07:17
rasterunscrew,. take out hdd, mount, put in fcompromised kernel, stick back in laptop, presto.07:17
cehtehgiven to the fbi07:18
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rasterDocScrutinizer:  pw needs to be provided via the kernel if its $HOME07:18
rasterDocScrutinizer:  as cehteh said - he encrypts $HOME07:18
rastervia kernel level encryption07:18
PavelAny thoughts?07:18
DocScrutinizerI wasn't refering to cehteh07:18
cehtehexactly ... you can already have a hacked bios with a key sniffer07:18
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cehtehDocScrutinizer: hence i argue against hw encryption07:19
cehtehthere is a level of trust involved i dont have .. it doesnt give me any gain07:19
rasterDocScrutinizer: kernel can modify bios - patch it. compromisable.07:19
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DocScrutinizerraster: of course if you're second one after any malware, you're busted any day07:20
cehtehagainst some causual thief just using linux would already enough :P07:20
rasteru'd need a full chain with signed kernel to begint o make it secure07:20
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rastercehteh:  for a casual thief - you're fine07:20
rasterfor somehow who knows his shit and wants your data... it's theirs= to have.07:20
DocScrutinizera virus could have infected the bios flasher I use to JTAG a new bios on a fresh machine07:21
cehtehwell i make it hard :) .. well what was this xkcd .. moment07:21
DocScrutinizera virus could have infected Intel's chip designing tools07:21
PavelThat is, about the relative insecurity against an automated or semi-automated remote attack of an N900 compared to a Debian PC which is always on and connected to the Internet, with Skype, a web browser, IM, etc. installed and used regularly.07:22
rastercehteh:  hahahahahahaha - so true07:22
cehtehi have at least some level of plausible denyability .. when i manage to destroy the usb token with the key no one can retrieve the data07:22
rasterPavel: i'd say your n900 is more secure.07:23
cehtehand it really comes to plausible deniablity (and the recognition thereof)07:23
PavelDocScrutinizer: To be fair, I wouldn't call such a thing a "virus" --- it would have to be a highly specialized attack, rather than a general-purpose self-reproducing code.07:23
Pavelraster: Interesting. Why?07:23
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rasterPavel: arm vs x8607:24
DocScrutinizerPavel: much smaller target base07:25
PavelThat doesn't make that much of a difference, since the malware only has to be written once.07:25
PavelThat said, I am just guessing.07:26
DocScrutinizeryep, but risk = # of vulnerabilities * # of attacks07:26
rasterPavel: the n900 will be  more secure because07:27
cehtehtest vpn07:27
raster1. its running fewer services than most debian pc's.07:27
cehtehwhat a lag,but works07:27
cehtehdid you nmap the n900 what ports are open?07:28
DocScrutinizercehteh: I did07:28
DocScrutinizernuttin found07:28
raster2. it's not x86 - th vast majority of explots and attacks are aimed at x866 - they are targetted as finding a flaw and baing able to insert some code - like actual binary that will jump off and run something/do something. the virtua writers/attackers are all focused on x86 - they mostly dont care or worry about arm. also they'd havfe to learn arm opcodes to d the same - and a small eprcentage of them may know arm - but its small compared to07:28
rasterthe mass of them knowing x8607:28
rasterso by sheer numbers - you're more secure as there are frankly fewer attacks - if any.07:28
arachnistmy n900 has 22 and 80 open07:28
cehtehwell there are some iphone viri07:29
rastercehteh:  they do exist07:29
cehteharachnist: both intentional i guess07:29
rasterits not a matter of 'can it happen' its "is it likely to happen"07:29
arachnistcehteh: yes07:29
arachnistPavel: http07:29
cehtehand udp?07:29
Pavelarachnist: I know. But why?07:29
ptlDocScrutinizer: I was looking at the dbus methods and properties and saw that on org.maemo.Playback there are many properties on each stream, namely State, pid and such. For changing the alarm, couldn't you just add a hook to org.maemo.Playback, check when it's the phone application (by pid) that is calling it, check if it is an alarm ring, change just the wav/mp3 file on-the-fly if the number belongs to a set, and get on with that?07:29
ptlDocScrutinizer: I mean, for the alarms by contact stuff07:29
PavelAlso, AFAIK most actual exploits nowadays involve vulnerabilities in client software the victim runs.07:30
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rasterarachnist:  whats on port 80?07:30
PavelAnd N900 has an old version of flash *shudder*.07:30
rasternothing on my n900 on port 8007:30
cehtehhas root a password?07:31
cehtehhere not .. only key auth07:31
PavelQuick question --- is there a way to become root if gainroot is not installed?07:31
ptlyes, rootme, isn't it?07:31
ptlPavel: by openssh07:32
cehtehor R&D mode07:32
arachnistraster: lighttpd here07:32
rasterarachnist: welkl thats definitely not a default setup :)07:32
cehtehbut all require some things to install or tweak07:32
rasteru've added that later yourself07:32
PavelWhat if SSH server is not installed, and R&D mode is disabled?07:33
raster'tcp port 53 is open on n90007:33
ptlwell, what if the screen is broken and the battery is off the device?07:33
rasterodd - its running a n open dns server there07:33
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rasterthat shoul dbe local only07:33
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ptlPavel: you enable R&D mode! easy07:33
Pavelptl: I was describing the software configuration of a typical user.07:33
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arachnistPavel: i sync photos and music over it (webdav)07:34
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Pavelptl: I am willing to bet that majority of even the rather geeky N900 demographic does not have SSH serve installed.07:34
cehtehgrr server still down07:34
rasterPavel: btw those exploits almost always rely on... x86 code to bve executed07:34
rastersure - there may be ones that inject java bytecode07:34
rasteror flash bytecode into buffers etc.07:34
rasterbut they will be much rarer07:34
DocScrutinizerdamn, lost connection after [2010-03-01 06:29:50] <ptl> DocScrutinizer: I mean, for the alarms by contact stuff07:35
Pavelraster: Attackers adapt.07:35
* cehteh would like to add some password for gainroot .. 07:35
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Pavelraster: Is the ARM architecture inherently less vulnerable to these things?07:35
DocScrutinizerptl: you can't change on the fly. You are not dbusd07:35
DocScrutinizerbut maybe you can finish the first ringtone and immediately issue your own07:35
Pavelcehteh: Can't you edit sudoers to do that?07:35
DocScrutinizerptl: but, as I mentioned before, I did a dbus-monitor (-s) and scrutinized each line of both logs of a inbound call, and I'm quite sure I've not seen any call to any *.playback07:35
rasterPavel:  they do - but u asked if the debian pc vs n900 .. which is more secure given a typical set of usage - n900 is - by far.07:35
cehtehPavel: yep07:35
rasteryes - attackers can adapt07:35
rasterbut they havent07:35
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ptlDocScrutinizer: oh, I was just going to do that. :(07:35
rasterand they wont until it becomes worth their while07:35
rasterthats why windows is where all the action is07:35
Pavelraster: How would you know if they did?07:36
rasterwindows is the vast majority os and thus its what they attack07:36
ptlPavel: this is about an exploit getting root access?07:36
rasterPavel: the same way u'd know they did for your pc07:36
Pavelraster: Fair enough. Let's hope this approach --- of being secure because the architecture/OS combination you use is used by so few --- is so obscure --- works. We'll call it "security through obscurity". :P07:37
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rasterPavel: it does work07:37
rasterits not ABSOLUTE security07:37
rasterthere is no such thing give any sufficiently complex bit of software07:37
rasterthere is only relative security07:37
Pavelraster: I was referring specifically to the x86/ARM divide.07:37
rasterthe more obscure u are the lower the chance that u will be attacked - successfully.07:38
PavelThe reason I am so interested in this issue is that I am trying to decide whether I can trust the device to store my passwords.07:38
rasterif u are asking "is the n900 100% absolutely secure" the answer is no07:38
rasterneither is the debian pc07:38
DocScrutinizeranyway it worked for Mac, it worked for linux. And both are much larger target base07:38
rasteror a host of os's and machines07:38
DocScrutinizerthan N90007:39
rasterits all about the relative risk07:39
rasterand the n900 will have a lower relative sick to a debian pc07:39
Pavelraster: Right. The question is about their relative vulnerabilities: what makes one more vulnerable or less vulnerable than the other.07:39
rasterits a cat and mosue game07:39
rasteror game of attrition07:39
rasterif everyone uses the same os on the same hw07:40
Pavelraster: For example, a world-writable system-wide configuration directory might help an attacker, should one decide to attack...07:40
rasterwell.. attackers have an easy job07:40
rastertarget 1 thing only07:40
rasterthe more combinations of os + architecture the more work they have07:40
rasterso either they will spplit that effort evenly over everything07:40
rasteror relatively based on attack success probability07:40
rasterattackers dont have unlimited resource07:41
rasterif u simply "strain" their resources - they will be less successful07:41
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rasterPavel: yes. it may help them07:41
rasterbut.. if an attacker is targetting you and gets into a process run as your user id... game over man. game over.07:42
DocScrutinizerrisk = # of vulnerabilities * # of attacks07:42
rastergive me that acces - and i have access to your display. access to your display (x) means your arse is mine.07:42
rasteryou are so owned.07:42
rasterthe question is.. if they get that far - actually compromise your application successfully - they likely then have targetted this attack for an n90007:43
PavelI am seeing 53 TCP open on mine...07:43
rasterand i'd say bets are all off if they get that far as they will use whatever local weakness they know of07:43
rasterand u'll have lots of them07:43
StskeepsPavel: dnsmasq07:43
rasterPavel:  yeah. dns. nodd. as imentioned above07:43
rasterit shouldnt be listening externally07:43
rasterjust on the local loopback07:43
rasteri'd say thats a configuration oversight07:44
PavelThat was nmap localhost.07:45
PavelSo that's OK.07:45
Pavelnmap from outside shows port 1042, which nmap from within doesn't.07:46
* DocScrutinizer suggests netstat -tupla --- faster07:47
cehteh#53 is dnsmasq07:47
cehtehDocScrutinizer: fail beezybox has no -p07:47
DocScrutinizerfail - I don't use messybox07:48
cehtehwell for real embedded things it might make sense ..07:48
DocScrutinizerbtw busybox is suid root usually :-P07:48
cehtehbut hey the n900 is markteted as internet tablet07:48
DocScrutinizernow if THAT'S no security issue XP07:48
cehtehwell tell me when you at nokia and fix the partitioning stuff ... then we can look forward a real gnu userland07:49
DocScrutinizerI'm EE. Ranting about system stuff is mere hobby ;-)07:50
PavelThat's odd... 1042 is closed a few minutes later.07:50
cehtehand my n900 work now nice .. even after reboot07:50
cehtehPavel: skype?07:50
Pavelcehteh: Probably.07:51
Pavelcehteh: Everything else is pure client.07:51
cehtehovi chat does very strange things btw07:51
cehtehand since ovi share never worked for me i am considering to ditch that crap07:51
Pavelcehteh: What's Ovi Chat?07:52
cehtehhaha i dont even know .. some chat service you get with an ovi account07:52
cehtehnever used it and i have no contacts there07:52
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cehtehi just wanted to try the photo upload things but that failed too07:53
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cehtehi really want a sftp sharing plugin to upload to my server07:53
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DocScrutinizeryeah, you can even /msg other ovi users, if you know their address etc07:53
cehtehbut well i prolly just mount it with sshfs07:53
Pavelcehteh: Ah.07:54
cehtehDocScrutinizer: you have an ovi account?07:54
crashanddieGeneralAntilles: I have to build the issue, don't have access to twitter so it'll be light07:54
cehtehdid picture sharing ever worked for you and am i to stupid to use it?07:54
DocScrutinizerthat is, I had07:54
DocScrutinizerdunno if I killed it07:54
DocScrutinizer(oic share) once it kinda worked, yeah07:55
cehtehalways crashes here07:55
DocScrutinizerthough it was a hell to find the public URL where that crap went to07:55
ShadowJKpicture sharing over internet or over 3g? :P07:56
* Pavel created his a few days ago to try Firefox from the Ovi store.07:56
ShadowJKthe 3g variant isn't supported07:56
cehtehyep sharing plugin for sftp/scp would be so much nicer07:56
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cehtehShadowJK: wlan07:56
DocScrutinizereeeek, it's even active07:57
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DocScrutinizercehteh: it's possible (abd rather simple?) to write own plugins for share services07:59
cehtehi wait for someone doing that :P07:59
cehtehi am not gtk/gui programmer08:00
crashanddieGeneralAntilles: so that went nicely to shit... can't write to www dir08:00
DocScrutinizercehteh: I guess it's a number of short config files08:00
cehtehnope its really code to write with a library api08:00
cehtehbut not terribly complicated08:00
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cehtehi may try someday08:01
PavelBy the way, I've been trying to figure something out. There is a /home/user/.gnupg that comes on a fresh N900. The directory is owned by root (not user) and contains only one file: trustdb.gpg . Does anybody have any idea what it's there for and what it does?08:01
DocScrutinizergiven the idiotic "chroot" to MyDocs, I give a shit about integrated share services08:01
cehtehPavel: did you installed claws or gpg extensions for modest?08:02
DocScrutinizeruser menu script for mc, so much more versatile08:02
Pavelcehteh: No, I didn't. Like I said, I first noticed it on a fresh install, a month ago.08:02
cehtehah i have that too08:03
Pavelcehteh: Also, it's owned by the root, not user.08:03
StskeepsPavel: app manager08:04
cehtehyeah prolly installed on a fresh device .. trusting nokia, the fbi and the mossad08:04
DocScrutinizersigned pkgs08:04
cehtehactually its empty08:04
cehtehare package on maemo signed?08:04
PavelDocScrutinizer: The thing is, there is a different place for the keys used to sign Debian packages.08:05
Pavelcehteh: I hope to any deities that might exist that they are...08:05
cehtehwell look at that file its a empty db08:05
Pavelcehteh: Is it an empty file?08:05
PavelMine wasn't.08:06
cehtehlooks like a empty db, not empty file08:06
Pavelcehteh: Ah.08:06
Pavelcehteh: How do you show contents of trustdb?08:06
cehtehheader and some null bytes08:06
cehtehi just used less :)08:06
DocScrutinizerwhat else08:06
DocScrutinizerthe *real* less08:06
cehtehhd, gpg,08:06
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cehtehyes the real less08:07
ali1234hexdump -C08:07
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DocScrutinizerif less can't do it, use mc ;-)08:07
cehtehi dont need hexdump to recognize null-bytes :P08:07
cehtehheh i dont use mc08:08
DocScrutinizerif mc can't do it, it's not worth to be done at all08:08
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PavelWell, it gets in the way of the user's GPG.08:08
Stskeepsfile a bug?08:09
PavelIt's owned by root, so the user can't overwrite it.08:09
DocScrutinizeroh yeah, if we got a buck for a bug filed08:09
PavelThe one time they actually care about privileges.08:09
PavelBy the way, the bugs for the bits written by Nokia go to, right?08:10
DocScrutinizeryou ain't seen nothing yet08:10
cehteh LESSBINFMT='*k%x' less /home/user/.gnupg/trustdb.gpg08:10
cehteheeek :)08:10
PavelDocScrutinizer: Eh?08:10
DocScrutinizercheck out SHR (Openmoko system)08:11
Pavelcehteh: Eh?08:11
StskeepsPavel: right08:11
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cehtehtry it :)08:11
Stskeepsand extras stuff08:11
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* Pavel doesn't have less installed.08:11
cehtehon some other comp then08:12
DocScrutinizercehteh: hehehe08:13
dracflamlocmikkov, you around?08:13
ali1234i don't have any trustdb.gpg...08:14
PavelDocScrutinizer: What's SHR?08:14
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PavelOK, in what rubric am I supposed to report that?
cehtehdamn .. 1. march .. no time for my april project08:16
StskeepsPavel: Security, possibly08:16
crashanddieMaemo Weekly News: 1 March 2010 is up. Get it now at http://www.mwkn.net08:16
Pavelali1234: Interesting. So nothing in /home/user/.gnupg/ ?08:16
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PavelIs BugZilla account distinct from the Garage account?08:18
Stskeepsyes, sadly08:19
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DocScrutinizerPavel: system software08:22
DocScrutinizerStskeeps: no security ?08:23
PavelBy the way, does anyone _not_ have root-owned /home/user/.gnupg/ on their N900?08:23
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cehtehyes i do :P08:23
cehteheh wrong .. i have08:24
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Pavelali1234: Can you take a look?08:25
DocScrutinizerPavel: I confirm08:25
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* Pavel wonders if maybe they got rid of it in more recent devices.08:26
DocScrutinizernah, my firmware is as recent as it gets08:26
* DocScrutinizer wonders if ali1234 missed the dot08:27
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PavelDocScrutinizer: Sure, but a firmware upgrade wouldn't delete that directory if it was there before the upgrade.08:30
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DocScrutinizernot if you need to reflash08:30
cehtehPavel: i flashed pr1.1.1 earlier today08:30
cehtehah halt .. thats mmc .. forget08:30
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DocScrutinizerso it's quite possible, yes08:31
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cehtehjust forget about it .. chown user it .. or remove / backup it or whatever08:31
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* DocScrutinizer wonders...08:32
DocScrutinizerno ~root/.gnupg08:32
DocScrutinizergrrr, I need MOAAR SPACE on rootfs. I want my findutils and dunno what else08:34
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mollyringwaldhey guys, anyone here know how to get vnc online with ssh? having a coupla problems08:35
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MiXu-I've done it. What's your problem?08:36
cehtehDocScrutinizer: copy /usr to /home and do a late bind-mount there08:37
mollyringwaldreading through the guide on the forums and i'm absolutely sure this is simple as anything but i can't do the last two things. i'll copy/paste the tasks in question:08:37
mollyringwaldCopy and rename the public key from the N900 (/home/user/.ssh/ to C:\Program Files\freeSSHd\fred on the PC (the same name as you used for the user you created earlier, with no file extension).08:37
mollyringwaldOn the N900:08:37
mollyringwaldCreate a configuration file /home/user/.ssh/config (to simplify the connection strings):08:37
DocScrutinizercehteh: hehe, exactly what I thought this minute08:37
Termana_n810DocScrutinizer, use a space spreader. Why would they sell you space spreader if you couldn't spread the space.08:38
MiXu-mollyringwald: So your SSH connection doesn't work? Have you tried it without the public key?08:38
DocScrutinizerTermana_n810: nah, I don't like the colors they come08:38
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MiXu-Just plain old ssh to N900. Does that work?08:39
Termana_n810... the whole room stopped for a second there at my poor joke08:39
rasterhmmm yay for broken egl08:41
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rasterwho do i get to grumble at about broken egl on maemo?08:41
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* raster prepares his pistol08:41
cehtehE ...08:42
Termana_n810DocScrutinizer, don't think too hard08:43
rasterdo egl. indeed08:44
rasterDocScrutinizer: egl indeed08:44
rastergles comes with egl.08:44
rasteras opposed to glx08:44
DocScrutinizerthought all starting with E is yours ;-P08:44
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rasterthey stole it damnit!08:45
t-tanDocScrutinizer: install findutils-gnu08:45
cehtehuhm .. dont tell me that evince is a 'e' project :P08:45
* raster 0wnz E!08:45
DocScrutinizert-tan: aha. Why?08:45
rastermy letter damnit.. mine!08:45
rastercehteh:  it isnt08:46
t-tanDocScrutinizer: it takes zero rootfs space08:46
cehtehwell i was sure ... :P08:46
DocScrutinizert-tan: how that?08:46
cehtehi dont believe08:46
DocScrutinizerme neither08:46
Termana_n810raster - All your E are belong to US08:47
t-tanDocScrutinizer: it's optified (approx. zero :)08:47
rasterTermana_n810:  damned stright!08:47
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DocScrutinizerdamn, If I need to check each basically non-maemo pkg for whether it's optified or not...08:47
DocScrutinizert-tan: how comes findutils is optified??08:48
t-tanDocScrutinizer: findutils-gnu and the other *-gnu packages are built for the device08:49
cehtehDocScrutinizer: since i have ext3 everywhere now i can finally make a full chroot including sdk and whatever i like08:49
cehtehno optify and other crap :)08:49
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DocScrutinizerI'd be more than happy with moving /usr and /var to eMMC08:50
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cehtehyeah try it tell me .. i dont want to reflash :)08:51
tybolltcehteh: how do you mount your device via usb?08:51
cehtehtybollt: i dont08:51
t-tanin the Moebian project we're working on a Maemo fork that is bootable from eMMC/SD and has no opt problem08:51
tybolltt-tan: Has Xenu approved of that?08:52
Termana_n810Moebian? is jebba involved?08:52
StskeepsTermana_n810: hah, good one08:52
t-tanapparently it's not so easy. Mobile + Debian = Moebian08:52
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cehtehi mean its reall not that hard to do partitioning right .. i wonder how nokia could failed so hars08:53
DocScrutinizercehteh: you bet I'll do later this day08:53
DocScrutinizerIroN900:~# du -sx /var /usr08:53
DocScrutinizer71464   /var08:53
DocScrutinizer290360  /usr08:53
Stskeepst-tan: will you beat me if i tell you fanoush did clone-to-SD already? :P08:53
t-tancehteh: partitioning was not the only thing the did wrong...08:53
t-tanStskeeps: i'll only beat you if you don't give me some link :D08:54
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t-tanfor someone who is familiar with the Maemo boot process and internals it should be trivial. I'm not yet08:55
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DocScrutinizercehteh: another "that's not a bug, that's a feature" I guess08:56
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Stskeepst-tan: you are aware that you're in high risk of going completely mad by digging into it too much? :)08:57
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jebbat-tan: maemo boot is closed in many parts...08:57
Stskeepspreinit being closed is a bit of a clusterfuck, yes08:58
Termana_n810Stskeeps - look who showed up - I told you he was involved! :P08:58
povbotBug 7019: Release source code of "getbootstate"08:58
Stskeepsbut actually /mnt/initfs/linuxrc was of same license in the paste08:58
Stskeepsthat everyone ignored the license is another thin08:58
t-tanStskeeps: those are pretty much the same steps I used but it didn't work08:59
t-tanyes, I'm not trying to dig to deep. my therapist will stop me ;-)08:59
mollyringwalddoes anyone else have any idea about vnc by way of ssh? i feel like the kid who forgot to bring their floaties to their swimming lesson08:59
cehteheither my gps got a fix indoors or is back ... whats more unlikely?09:00
MiXu-mollyringwald: You're not in the vnc-part at all yet. It's just basic SSH'ing and SCP.09:00
t-tanStskeeps: thanks for the links, anyway. I'll try it again09:01
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povbotBug 9331: Root-owned /home/user/.gnupg directory in fresh installation obstructs GPG.09:04
t-tanStskeeps: is there any documentation about the bootprocess except for ?09:11
Stskeepst-tan: we used to have some for diablo but fremantle is fairly new land09:12
Stskeepsit basically goes preinit -> upstart09:12
Stskeepsand then read event.d from there09:12
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mollyringwaldokay, simpler question: how do i copy a file from /home/user/.ssh to my pc?09:14
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mollyringwaldoh, i should have prefaced that by saying that i don't know anything about anything!09:16
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jebbamollyringwald: email the file then  :)09:17
t-tanStskeeps: thx. during boot I see that preinit tries mkdir -p mnt/initfs on the ro rootfs and fails. is that normal or do i have to create mnt/initfs myself09:17
t-tanmollyringwald: how do you know? :)09:17
Stskeepst-tan: you should create mnt/initfs yourself09:17
mollyringwaldt-tan: instinct09:18
t-tanStskeeps: that could explain a lot. thx.09:19
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Stskeepst-tan: maemo demands 'rw' rootfs fwiw09:19
tybolltuh why would you not have RW rootfs on a device like the 900?09:20
t-tanStskeeps: I know. I remount rw manually in rcS. I wonder where and when Maemo on NAND does it?09:20
Stskeepstybollt: it doesn't, ubifs is mounted rw initially09:20
Stskeepsat least on n90009:20
Stskeepser, t-tan09:20
t-tanduring boot / is ro initially on normal Linux09:21
DocScrutinizermollyringwald: you should be able to use scp, if you have a password for root on N900. installing ssh packet includes a password setting iirc09:21
Stskeepsyes, but this isn't normal windows09:21
Stskeepser, linux09:21
Stskeepsand hence why therapy is a needed luxury when dealing with maemo :)09:21
tybolltlinux isn't normal, mind ;P09:21
t-tanMaemo is totally abnormal09:21
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mollyringwalddocscrutinizer it probably helps that i have no idea what scp is :P09:22
DocScrutinizeryou have a linux system on your PC?09:22
mollyringwaldno, windows xp09:22
t-tanan eccentric Linux distro for normal people...09:22
DocScrutinizerget putty09:23
meceyah putty works09:23
mecealso.. ps on N900. It's tripped to the bone?09:23
mecestripped even09:23
jebbamollyringwald: just plug your device into your computer via USB and you can access the files on it.09:23
jebbaor email it, like i mentioned above09:24
mollyringwaldjebba i know that but the folder in question isn't displayed in file manager or windows explorer09:24
mollyringwaldalright, got putty open09:24
mecemollyringvald, you could just copy the file to MyDocs first. Then plug it in.09:24
jebbawell, it's gotta be *somewhere* in the file manager, if its somewhere on the device i would think (but havent used gui filemanager on maemo much)09:24
DocScrutinizermollyringwald: with putty you should be able to use scp-alike command to copy files to root@n90009:25
Stskeepswinscp as well09:25
DocScrutinizermollyringwald: or from N90009:25
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DocScrutinizerno idea abot windoof, Stskeeps ;-P09:26
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mollyringwaldwhere do i enter this command?09:26
DocScrutinizerwasn't so keen to suggest cygwin09:26
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DocScrutinizerputty comes with an icon to click afaik09:27
DocScrutinizermollyringwald: winscp you probably need cmd for09:28
jebbaI'm not sure how you plan to help mollyringwald scp a file they can't find in the file manager, but have fun,09:28
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mollyringwaldoh i've got the program open, it has a configuration window i just have no idea what to do with said window09:28
cehtehjust close it, cant be important :P09:29
DocScrutinizersorry, I can't help any further. No windows here09:29
mollyringwaldman, i can't believe locating a file is so difficult09:30
DocScrutinizerlet's try this:09:30
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DocScrutinizeron n900 in a terminal, enter 'root'09:31
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ZogGis here any developers - the search on site is terrible09:32
PavelZogG: Last I looked, it was downright broken.09:32
DocScrutinizermollyringwald: sorry, enter 'exit'09:32
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ZogGPavel it's working over site but not whole one09:33
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ZogGi can't search thru brainstorm09:33
DocScrutinizermollyringwald: enter 'cp /home/user/.ssh/ /home/user/MyDocs/.documents'09:33
PavelZogG: Oh. Well, in that case, it used to be even worse. ;)09:33
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DocScrutinizermollyringwald: enter 'cp /home/user/.ssh/ /home/user/MyDocs/.documents/'09:34
cehtehno sshfs for windows? :)09:34
t-tanStskeeps: boot output looks better now. but it hangs at progression dots09:34
cehtehno for me :/ still09:34
mollyringwaldthere it is!09:34
mollyringwaldthank you :)09:35
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ZogGwhat you say about it - first of all i'm terrible at discribing problems and english is not my native language as you see - can you understand this -
DocScrutinizermollyringwald: now hook n900 to pc via usb cable, and select mass storage from menu on n90009:35
Stskeepst-tan: did you fix the mount /home issue?09:35
mollyringwaldi can cover the rest :)09:35
mollyringwaldi was just having issues with locating the file09:35
mollyringwaldi'm not completely useless, i swear!09:35
tybolltZogG: you're missing an m in yout nickname. :)09:36
t-tanStskeeps: that was the first thing it did after copying09:36
ZogGtybollt i don't thin so =)09:36
DocScrutinizermollyringwald: fine :-)09:36
ZogGtybollt, but how is an idea itself?09:36
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t-tanStskeeps: if I hold the power button for reboot, I can see error log for a brief moment. I should take a picture09:36
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DocScrutinizercehteh: why don't you use jebba's repo?09:39
cehtehhas he a mirror?09:39
DocScrutinizercehteh: /topic ;-)09:40
DocScrutinizer~hail jebba09:41
* infobot bows down to jebba and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!"09:41
cehtehmaybe i should mirror it too .. i guess it wont be that big, few GB at worst09:42
DocScrutinizercehteh: check legal issues first09:43
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cehtehits only 'free' so ?09:44
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DocScrutinizernot sure. Best ask jebba09:44
cehtehwill do09:44
cehtehmaybe we can even setup some round-robin dns09:44
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DocScrutinizeryeeew, sophisticated shit09:45
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mollyringwaldwhen i run "ssh" in x terminal it tells me connection refused, any idea what i might have done wrong?09:47
DocScrutinizeryou'd need to keep the repos in sync *all* time09:47
DocScrutinizerssh user@keflex.ath.cx09:47
t-tanplease setup more mirrors, reprepro config is here
DocScrutinizerbut actually I guess you got wrong URL09:48
mollyringwaldit's the dns i made with dyndns09:49
DocScrutinizerdyndns? so I assume you're behind a router/NAT09:49
DocScrutinizerhehe - fun09:49
mollyringwaldnot really!09:49
DocScrutinizeryou need to open up a port forwarding in your NAT09:50
mollyringwaldi did, for port 52209:50
mollyringwaldwhich is what i've set up in the config file09:50
DocScrutinizeryour external port probably is different?09:50
DocScrutinizeror is it 522 as well?09:50
mollyringwaldhow would i check?09:51
cehtehDocScrutinizer: since he provides rsync that shoulldnt be a problem09:51
lucentcan N900 wifi be used as a WPA encrypted hotspot?09:51
lucentnot ad-hoc09:51
DocScrutinizermollyringwald: your external port 522 is unresponsive09:52
cehteht-tan: i am speaking about mirror on a internet server, not on the device09:52
mollyringwaldhrm, that sucks. how do i fix it up?09:52
t-tancehteh: me too09:52
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cehtehah only that headline .. the wiki is a bit confusing09:53
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cehtehErr fremantle Release.gpg09:54
cehteh  The HTTP server sent an invalid reply header [IP: 80]09:54
DocScrutinizermollyringwald: that's hard to tell. check your router/nat setup09:54
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mollyringwaldpfportchecker says 522 is open, not sure if that counts for anything09:54
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DocScrutinizeryou need to map <external-port> -> <IP-of-your-PC>:<internal-port-on-your-PC>09:55
mollyringwaldah, you've lost me!09:55
cehtehyay .. rootfs 100%09:56
DocScrutinizermollyringwald: you got an internal IP (or name) of your PC.09:56
mollyringwaldas in does my pc have a static ip? if so, yeah it does09:57
DocScrutinizermollyringwald: on your router/NAT you need a port forward from external port (522?) to that specific machine (by name or IP), to the particular port of ssh (usually 22 if you haven't changed it in your PC's ssh config)09:58
mollyringwaldchanged it to 52209:58
tybolltheh joikuspot is ... an interesting app09:58
DocScrutinizeron your PC?09:58
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DocScrutinizerok the probably you want to forward external port-522 to internal-IP:52209:59
mollyringwaldi'm pretty sure i've done that, i followed the instructions on portforwarding10:00
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DocScrutinizerusually NAT config GUI offers convenient ways to enter these 3 values10:00
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DocScrutinizerwell then I guess your PC isn't running any ssh service atm10:01
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DocScrutinizermollyringwald: the correct incantation would be "ssh -p 522"10:02
DocScrutinizermollyringwald: from any machine *not* on your LAN10:02
DocScrutinizermollyringwald: i.e. somewhere else in global net10:03
mollyringwaldtrying now, switched to packet data10:03
ZogGis there any way to add search thru brainstorm?10:03
DocScrutinizermollyringwald: if your N900 is on WIFI of that same router, it probably won't work10:03
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DocScrutinizermollyringwald: depends on your router10:04
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DocScrutinizermollyringwald: you checked a possibly existing firewall of your router?10:06
DocScrutinizerwhat router is that?10:06
mollyringwaldnetcomm nb5plus4w10:07
DocScrutinizererhm. no idea10:07
DocScrutinizerif your router has a firewall, you need to open up that port forward there10:07
ZogGso noone said if my brainstorm proposal is understandable enuf - anyone has a free minute to look thru it?10:07
mollyringwaldwould turning off firewall solve the problem?10:09
tybollttry it10:09
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DocScrutinizermollyringwald: yes10:10
DocScrutinizerif it's that problem10:10
DocScrutinizermollyringwald: heh!!10:11
DocScrutinizermollyringwald: you opened up external port 2210:11
mollyringwaldaw man10:11
mollyringwaldi'm clever10:11
DocScrutinizerwell, it 'worked'. so just fix that port forward and you're almost there10:12
mollyringwaldit doesn't make any sense though, i just took a look at the rule i applied10:13
mollyringwaldProtocolPort StartPort EndPort Map10:13
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mollyringwaldso what am i changing?10:14
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JaffaCan someone do a sanity check in a real browser? microb isn't showing the "Read more" links on
DocScrutinizerlooks good10:14
DocScrutinizerexcept the missing spaces10:14
DocScrutinizerand you don't need UDP, but nevermind10:14
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mollyringwaldmissing spaces?10:15
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DocScrutinizerwell that 52252252210:15
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DocScrutinizeranyway, on external port 22 (standard for ssh) it works. Now you fix that port forward, and you're done. And I'm off now, got to get breakfast10:17
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mollyringwaldalright, thanks for all the help :)10:17
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DocScrutinizerjust left a "greeting" in your logfile ;-)10:19
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cehteh sshfs -o nonempty /media/mmc1/DCIM11:43
cehteh.. klick ..
cehtehwohoo :)11:43
jacekowskiit will fail when you lose connection11:43
jacekowskithat's why i like gallery2 plugin11:44
cehtehwell i can route that through my vpn .. then it will stay alive11:44
cehtehand there is -o reconnect11:44
jacekowskiit will time out when you lose your connection11:44
cehtehnope ssh with the right options doesnt time out11:45
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jacekowskieverything times out11:45
jacekowskiand ssh can do nothing about it11:45
jacekowskiip_conntrack_tcp_timeout_established i /proc/sys/net........11:46
jacekowskieven that will time out without traffic11:46
mgedmincehteh, what are the right options?11:47
mgedminI never had much luck with sshfs reconnecting11:47
cehtehmhm ok .. but well ssh has keepalives, i have static ip at home vpn tolerates some connection loss as long buffers dont overrun ... or maybe even then it just blocks11:48
cehtehanyways just made this a funny test11:48
mgedminall keepalives do is make the ssh connection die sooner when your router craps out for a few seconds ;)11:48
mgedminfor me anyway :(11:48
cehtehmgedmin: depends on your connectivity .. batchmode, keepalive and so11:48
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RST38hmoo ab11:56
abre *11:56
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Shapeshifterdoes anyone else have problems with the ICQ telepathy plugin? i cant connect for days. though its the same with pidgin on my laptop. did icq change their protocol again...12:08
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hrwI think that years passed since icq was sane protocol12:08
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Shapeshifteri guess this is a good moment to get rid of it12:11
meceShapeshifter, I've given up on ICQ. Only reason I hung on to it for so long was because they were the first.12:11
zashhrw: OSCAR was sane? or do you mean relative?12:12
Shapeshifteri still have a few contacts who seem to use it exclusively.12:12
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Arif_people still use iCQ12:13
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Shapeshifterthey dont know any better12:13
zashmake them switch to XMPP12:13
* Arif_ throws MSN at zash12:14
* zash hits MSN back att Arif_ with spectrum12:15
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* Arif_ sellsit12:15
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edheldilzash:  actually here in CZ is ICQ so popular it's used almost exclusively12:17
* Arif_ sends some new technology to murrica12:17
mecegah..! why the frak does not this config file recognize SDL_mixer?12:19
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* mece tries without sound, since the autoconf doesn't recognize SDL_mixer as installed.12:26
Milo-aww, no telnet client for n90012:27
benbrownno netcat?12:27
meceMilo-, apt-get telnet12:28
benbrownnetcat is like telnet but awesome12:28
Milo-mece tried but no sugar12:28
meceMilo-, works for me.12:28
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meceprobly in devel or something.12:29
Milo-I don't use devel12:29
Milo-benbrown no netcat, socat can be found though12:30
DocScrutinizerMilo-: I swear I seen a telnet client in HAM this morning12:30
cehtehme too .. and server12:30
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meceis there a particular reason why gnet-2.0 package is not in the repos?12:34
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meceoh well.. seems to build fine at least.12:36
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auenfhmm, whats available for the n810 so i can capture data from a serial port from the attached usb device?12:40
auenfand also to work out what port the usb device has installed12:40
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cehtehRST38h: do you know if the window title is customizeable in xchat12:52
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lcukauenf, urg, not sure.  lbt may know, because afaik he was testing some sort of microcontrolled plugged into usb12:54
lcukages ago12:55
auenfhmm, a_wait_bcon12:55
auenfeven when its connected and powering this device12:55
auenfdoes that mean it hasnt detected a device?12:55
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lucentauenf: does N810 have host USB ?12:57
aboyerab: ping12:58
auenfof course n810 has host usb12:58
lucentI really like the which I own12:58
lucentit sounds silly that I would go to trouble of buying a special USB and serial converter like that... but I did. It works very well.12:59
lucentI can't say if it works better than another type...  most of the USB-serial converters work without trouble in my experience13:00
auenfim trying to determin if this reader will work as straight usb13:00
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DocScrutinizercehteh: sure. You just need to recompile after that13:05
cehtehits a bit redundant and i cant see the channel name13:07
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cehtehmaybe i make it configureable if it isnt already13:07
lucentwhile I'm here, any of you familiar with Qt in Maemo?  I have trouble with the keepassx port, the text fields are too small for the height of the fonts13:08
lucentis that possible to work-around with a theme rc ?13:09
lucentthe text fields inside keepassx are N-height but they should be N*2-height13:09
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lovelyboyif I want to use OpenCV in my project for maemo, where should I install the library? there is only the instruction for intalling opencv in linux, but i got no idea about how to  use it in scratchbox13:30
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timeless_mbpscratchbox should be transparent13:32
timeless_mbpyou would install it the same way you'd normally install it13:32
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timeless_mbpminus issues about optification13:33
meceping pupnik13:35
mececd ..13:36
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lovelyboyso I could intall the opencv package under any direction in linux? and I could use it through pkg-config in scrathbox?13:44
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benbrownif it has a .pc file yeah13:45
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aboyerlucent: you can ask in #qt-maemo13:47
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benbrowntho if it's not available on the device itself you'll need to build the library too13:47
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aboyeris there a way to extract the raw data buffers (GstBuffer) from a video stream when using gdigicam?13:56
tybollttimeless: Hi, Can you please check under the table cloth in the canteen? I think 1.2 is lost, we need to find it.13:56
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tybolltping timeless13:57
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mecetybollt, you just missed him14:07
meceping, pupnik14:08
TomaszDStskeeps, sold my n810 for 530 PLN, am still surprised I got that much14:14
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mango-has anyone used QDBusConnection for catching incoming sms messages?14:22
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jebbalovelyboy: i dont see that opencv has been built for maemo14:32
jacekowskithat could be good thing14:33
jacekowskiuse it to focus on faces while making photos14:33
pupnikhi mece14:33
jacekowskitonikitoo: 530PLN is like a nothing14:33
tonikitoo? :)14:34
lovelyboyjebba: But I found something like this:
hrwTomaszD: nice price14:34
mecepupnik, I was wondering how you threw the Glib::Error i saw you mention in a irc log.14:34
meceI did this: std::auto_ptr<Glib::Error> ex; balbhabl(asdf, asdf, ex)14:34
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mecepupnik, eg. solved.14:34
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mecesome version is different from what this source wants, so I need to run through the whole thing and add std::auto_ptr<Glib::Error> ex; to everything. Bleh!14:35
* mgedmin remembers only one thing about std::auto_ptr -- a strong suggestion to never use it14:36
mecemgedmin, but when it'14:37
meces required14:37
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pupniki must have done the old "delete what i dont need or understand" mece14:38
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raster3 bugs already filed on opengl-es on n900.. and counting14:44
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jacekowskidoes anybody have sylpheed claws screenshot on n900?14:49
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mecedaaaaamns.. Why oh why is there no consistency here? or am I missing something. apparently Gtk::Dialog::<whatever> requires a std::auto_ptr<Glib::Error> at the end, which it apparently doesn't need on whatever this is normally compiled.14:51
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rasteryay c++!14:51
* raster hides14:51
rasterc ftw.14:51
rastergtkmm is not going to help u14:52
rasterjust get in the way14:52
rasteruse the c api for gtk14:52
jacekowskiuse qt14:52
jacekowskidon't touch that gtk crap14:52
mecedude, I'm not writing a program. I'm compiling14:52
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* raster makes signs of warding14:52
* SpeedEvil wonders if a newer schematic will leak.14:52
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tybolltoh lovely14:54
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tybolltlet's have us a religious war over c vs c++14:54
* raster grumbles about scratchbox and ending up having a different machine per sb sdk he has installed14:54
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rastertybollt:  AWESOME!14:54
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tybollthell I'll throw in cobol and lisp and we'll make it a day?14:54
* raster brings out the morning star and popcorn14:54
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tybolltraster: :D14:54
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rastertybollt:  nah. c and c++ can happily entertain me for hours14:54
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jaskai wonder if there are Xlib bindings for cobol14:55
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w00tjaska: .. dude, i'm trying to *eat*14:55
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jaskaor perhaps motif/cobol14:56
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meceok.. now I'm getting annoyed.14:56
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RST38hkill someone!14:56
mecehmm.. naah.14:56
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tybolltmece: Wasn14:56
tybolltmece: Wasn't me, I swear14:56
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RST38hkonttori: moo14:57
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RST38hGentlemen (and ladies) could you look at bug #9192 and comment or vote14:59
povbotBug Media Player applet stops working after a while14:59
RST38h('cause I am damn tired of having to restart media player applet every few hours)15:00
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meceso apparently Glibmm in maemo5 does not have property_pixbuf()15:01
hrwiirc it is duplicate15:01
* mece sighs15:01
tybolltRST38h: 1.2, hmmm?15:01
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RST38htybollt: bugzilla still says unconfirmed15:02
pillar_RST38h: voted15:03
hrwbug #9199 someone?15:03
povbotBug Message list shows incorrect entries15:03
tybolltRST38h: :-&15:04
hrwor bug #898915:04
povbotBug number -> name decoding for sms should only be decoded from phone number fields of contacts15:04
RST38hpillar: thanks15:04
pillar_RST38h: np, it's an annoying bug15:05
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ivan4thBTW, concerning Lisps: I think I'll finally publish clisp-2.48+ fremantle .debs today. Fixed FFI+shared libraries issue15:07
pupnik++ ivan4th15:08
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ivan4thlibffcall for fremantle will stay as a fork for some time I think though. The maintainers seem to be somewhat afraid of my maemo-related patches there (gcc-related trickery etc.)15:09
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qgilN900please have a look at
fluxsoo, is there a program to trigger any action when I plug in/take off a cable to/from the line out?15:21
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fluxheadphone daemon apparently does some part of that, but I'd like to play-on-insert and stop-on-removal15:23
StskeepsqgilN900: FUD's a good term for it, or community psychosis :)15:23
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qgilN900by FUD I mean the original meaning of the acronym, yes15:24
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rasterqgilN900: you should get the biz nokians to say whats uyp with meego and n90015:26
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rasteras such until u do - rumors will fly and be rife - and you cant do much about it15:26
qgilN900need to go, let's discuss15:26
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arachnista clear message saying "yes, there will be meego/harmattan for the n900" would shut up most, if not all, of the naysayers15:27
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satmdeven a 'we intend to try to make it available to n900' would help the situation15:28
jebbawell, meego should be pretty open, so it should be runnable on the n90015:28
jebbaexcept the battery ;)15:28
Stskeepssatmd: and if they don't do it, shareholders can sue their pants off15:29
jebbaIn fact, it will probably run on there before a released device  ;)15:29
arachnistjebba: why the battery exception?15:29
ShadowJKhuh, did someone make text bigger on tmo minimalist? *sigh*15:29
jebbaarachnist: because that is closed source, so can't port it to meego (for instance. There's a few more)15:29
hrwI think that for nokia the cheapest option is to do not say anything so community will get angry and work on adding n900 to be unofficially supported15:29
ShadowJKoh, atleast minimalist dark is almost as small as the normal15:30
satmdStskeeps: I doubt that, given the vagueness of this statement ... "we try, but don't complain if we don't succeed"15:31
* ShadowJK wonders how come "minimalist" is gigantic15:31
tybolltthis is linux shadow...15:32
SpeedEvilhrw: don't forget leaking schematics to mae it easier.15:32
hrwSpeedEvil: to tell the truth I do not care about schematics availability15:33
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hrwSpeedEvil: I have schematics for 770, n800, n810, few developer boards which I have but never made use of them15:34
SpeedEvilyeah - it's - largely - unimportant.15:34
SpeedEvilat least once you've got a running kernel and drivers15:34
SpeedEvilIt\'s only when you want to add features that are missing that it can be handy15:35
arachnistif it wasn't for schematics availability, i wouldn't have both of the GbE ports on my other arm toy available15:35
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hrwarachnist: which one?15:44
arachnisthrw: openrd-client.15:45
arachnisthrw: one of the early kernel patches had a bad address under which the phy for the second GbE was supposed to be available, but thanks to schematics the correct number could be figured out15:46
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hrwopenrd-client is nice15:52
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arachnistwell, i use it as a router, so having both of the network interfaces working is rather important for me15:54
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pupnikhow do i grab an already cached zoutube file?  this re-download is lame15:58
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* MohammadAG thinks it's stupid to have a leap 'year' problem on the 1st of March15:59
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auenfits a 'lack of a leap year' problem right?16:00
auenfmy watch kept telling me it was the 29th all day16:00
auenfstupid analog thing16:00
auenfif i didnt change it, it would have said tomorrow was the 30th16:00
MohammadAGauenf, at least your watch works ;)
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Corsachhmh, how can anything think we're a leap year :)16:02
auenfits an even year ;)16:02
auenfand it ends in a 016:02
auenfand the first two digits of the year is divisible by 416:02
MohammadAGCorsac, all fat PS3s stopped working on the 28th-1st of March16:02
tybolltMohammadAG: fix was to ... ?16:03
MohammadAGlook at your PS3 till it's fixed16:03
nid0isnt one yet16:03
MohammadAGpulled the ethernet cable before I switched mine on, and it seems to be working fine, what worries me is that I'm curious so I might plug it any second16:03
MohammadAGtybollt, date was reset to 31/12/1999, and trophies went corrupt16:04
tybolltMohammadAG: :S16:04
tybolltMohammadAG: zune ol over again16:04
viukkisand we all remember what playstations were like in 199916:04
MohammadAGyep lol16:04
MohammadAGthe 2008 problem16:05
MohammadAGbut you have to sign in to get it, I'm not affected (yet)16:05
tybollthow incredibly ... ugh16:05
Corsacauenf: “even” year isn't exactly enough :)16:05
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jacekowski14:50 <marienz> you've give me no indication you're going to contribute positively on the channel16:07
jacekowskinot that16:07
jacekowski14:51 <jacekowski> and you're right16:07
jacekowskianybody can try if that crashes microB?16:07
MiXu-Crashes firefox at least :D16:08
Corsacdoesn't crash midori :)16:08
marienzno crash in firefox 3.6 here16:08
tybolltOTOH everythign else crashes midori16:09
MiXu-I have FF 3.6 and it crashed16:09
marienzjacekowski: thanks for mentioning up front that it tries to crash the browser this time around16:09
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jacekowskimarienz: you are everywhere16:10
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arachnist <| lol16:10
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* GAN900 yawns16:12
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benbrownFF 3.6 on debian here, no crash16:14
MohammadAGcrashed on FF 3.6 - Windows16:15
hrwjacekowski: "XML Parsing Error:" on Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv: Gecko/20100228 Namoroka/3.6.2pre16:15
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benbrownMicroB crashes after a few seconds16:18
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MohammadAGI noticed that if microB is started up and a site is opened, it doesn't start loading it directly16:19
DjkrikkeHi guys, when Im on wlan and I get out of range, maemo doesnt automatically switch to gprs. is this normal?16:20
MohammadAGmine switches automatically, check your settings16:20
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benbrownHas anyone had that 'usb port falling out' issue? Is it just pre-production models?16:21
MohammadAGMenu > Settings > Internet Connection > set it to connect automatically to any access point16:21
MohammadAGbenbrown, mostly, yes16:21
Djkrikkesorry I wasnt detailed enough. I mean it doesnt switch for mail and exchange. mail doesnt initiate a connection16:22
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GAN900Jaffa, you're never going to be free. :P16:23
GAN900crashanddie, usuk16:23
crashanddieGAN900: sorry?16:23
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GAN900crashanddie, hi. :)16:23
crashanddieGAN900: I didn't have the twitter credentials, wasn't anything I could've done16:24
crashanddieGAN900: be happy the bloody issue came online16:24
crashanddieplus you were offline, so any editing from that point would've been moot too16:24
GAN900crashanddie, yes, yes, thank you, seb. :P16:24
crashanddieoh fuck off16:24
DjkrikkemohammadAG: does mail initiate a connection on your device?16:25
MohammadAGModest? Yeah16:26
hrwmodest... I hope it will die16:26
Djkrikkeis it push or fetch mail?16:26
hrwfetch only - idle support is disabled in maemo16:27
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MohammadAGIt's push here16:27
Djkrikkehrw, what do you mean with idle support?16:27
MohammadAG(Nokia Messaging)16:27
hrwDjkrikke: IMAP IDLE16:28
Djkrikkeso if you are disconnected, nokia messaging brings back the connection?16:28
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MohammadAGDjkrikke, yes, it does get annoying sometimes16:29
hrwmaemo17^Wmeego2031 will finally merge modest with nokia messaging to give people only one email component16:29
tybolltDjkrikke: yes - that's why crackberries + iphones are sold w/ dataplans16:29
derfhrw: Which still doesn't work?16:30
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hrwderf: did I said something about working component?16:30
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derfhrw: Just so long as we're clear.16:30
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MohammadAGbattery went flat in less than 2 hours today16:32
MohammadAGI like bricks, I'm ordering an extended battery16:33
lcukX-Fade ping16:33
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Cascade-MsnBot [Freezer] [MassAdder] [And More] Add '' to your contact list for FREE access!16:44
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GAN900MohammadAG, what the hell were you doing?16:47
GAN900Playing Flash games over 3G while watching Finding Nemo?16:47
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pupniki wish we could lower flash cpu consumption16:50
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vanadismobilepupnik, how about using html5?16:51
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vanadismobileflash is the dark side of the force16:52
pupniki got friends streaming their stuff on ustream16:52
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pupnikactually managing at 65 pct cpu atm16:53
pupnikbut i gotta keep the charger in or it chews battery16:53
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pupnikanybody know some server software that will remux ustream to a reasonable format?16:54
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ptlDocScrutinizer: when you used dbus-monitor to try and find the message that plays the ring sound, did you use the system dbus or the session dbus? I just noticed that uses the system bus, but I monitored the session bus and it also sends a message to org.freedesktop.Telepathy.Client.CallUI with an object /org/freedesktop/Telepathy/Connection/ring/tel/ring/incoming<number> that has some data, like the number of the phone calling17:00
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hrwptl: apt-get install mdbus2 - easier tool to use then dbus-monitor/dbus-send17:04
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jo-erlendcan someone help me add the correct repository to get qtify from "the user/multimedia section"?17:06
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jo-erlend <---17:06
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matthew-Anyone got problems with the phone speaker in n900?17:07
matthew-going dead quiet?17:07
matthew-etc... ?17:08
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Arif_matthew-, yes. it sucks :P17:17
matthew-so it's not just my phone?17:17
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Arif_do you mean the loudpseakers17:18
matthew-no no17:18
Arif_or the one on the screen17:18
matthew-the one on the screen17:18
Arif_nope works fine ;P17:18
matthew-ah ok17:18
matthew-shit then ;d17:18
matthew-its only me lol17:18
Arif_the speakers on the other hand...17:18
matthew-the speaker works brilliant for me lol17:19
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Arif_you must have a different phone then :P17:19
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nid0matthew- - there have been reports on tmo about the phone speaker going dead quiet17:21
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nid0it's apparently a hardware problem with a crappy dodgy connection between the audio chip and speaker, apparently a nokia care centre should be able to sort it for you in pretty short order17:21
matthew-nid0: you mean the 'phone' little speaker?17:21
matthew-ive got my phone insured, so17:22
matthew-thinking of jsut dropping it on the flor and ordering new one17:22
nid0well its a warranty fix, its apparently just that the connector's a bit weak and sometimes breaks away17:22
nid0= you end up with a speaker that goes really quiet now and then17:22
SpeedEvilThe GPS antenna, FM antenna, earpiece, and some other bits are connected by spring connectors17:22
matthew-nid0: ah ok17:22
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iPeter-Is there spotify app for N900 - Maemo 5? Does it work on free account?17:33
xtnone works with free account17:33
iPeter-:<, Okay thanks for information.17:34
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mtdwhat's the maemo 5 deb package that provides the version number in "About Product", again?17:34
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MohammadAGtybollt, do you have a PS3?17:36
thomasvsis there a way to verify that all files in the package database are actually on disk ?17:37
MohammadAGmtd, osso-product-info?17:37
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jo-erlendis this where that damn spam comes from onjoin?17:37
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mtdMohammadAG: IIRC it has "mr0" in the name, but that's all I can recall :(17:38
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* mtd 's about product shows 2009.44-1 but apt and HAM claim there are no updates.17:39
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MohammadAGmtd, mp-fremantle-generic-pr?17:41
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mtdMohammadAG: ahh sounds familiar! thanks17:42
MohammadAGanyone got an E: Handler Silently Failed when they try to install any ovi app from terminal?17:42
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* Arif_ throws PR1.2 in the middle of the channel17:44
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* luke-jr takes out his katana and slices PR1.2 in 503.1 pieces17:44
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mtdMohammadAG: mp-fremantle-generic-pr seems not to exist, but mp-fremantle-203-pr does.17:45
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* mtd wonders if my sources.list.d is broken17:45
MohammadAGmtd, depends on which variant you have installed17:45
* Arif_ gets 503.1 phones and installs each piece on a phone17:45
lovelyboy_still dont know how to use opencv in scratchbox17:45
MohammadAGI have the gobal firmware, that seems to be the UK one (-203)17:45
lovelyboy_i could install opencv package in linux, and pkg-config could find opencv in the list17:46
RST38hWHAT? PR1.2 is out?17:46
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zaheermRST38h, ?17:46
lovelyboy_but in scratchbox, pkg-config cant find opencv17:47
MohammadAGRST38h, who? what? where? why? :p17:47
Arif_RST38h, no17:47
Arif_but I can make you one if you like17:47
lovelyboy_anything i need to do?17:47
Arif_it'll run Windows phone 717:47
MohammadAGArif_, can you change the architecture to x86 while you're at it? :p17:47
mtdMohammadAG: ah, ok...makes sense for me.17:47
Arif_I'll try :P17:47
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MohammadAGif you want beta testers I'm here Arif_ :p17:48
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ptlis there a good augmented reality app for the N900?17:48
Arif_ptl, the N900 isn't real17:48
nid0there's a nifty demonstration one in the works17:48
nid0doesnt actually do anything functional that I can see tho17:48
ptlI've seen this nifty demonstration17:49
ptlbut I want an app to impress my friends :P17:49
pupnikgpodder repeatedly marks my played podcasts as unplayed17:49
Arif_I want the faster bluetooth technology on the N90017:50
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nid0I want a powermat battery :(17:50
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* Arif_ offers nid0 a mugen battery :P17:51
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Arif_for only $150+shipping!17:52
MohammadAG<Arif_> I want the faster bluetooth technology on the N90017:52
MohammadAGx86 should make it faster :P17:52
MohammadAGcause x86 is higher than A817:52
bderenorcainehi there. i am having a small problem with my n900 and was wondering if there was someone here who could help me17:52
bderenorcainei need to install libsdl-haa17:52
bderenorcainebut i cant find it17:52
Arif_apt-get libsdl-haa?17:53
bderenorcainei already added all extras repositories17:53
bderenorcainedoesnt work17:53
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Arif_google a deb and install that?17:53
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bderenorcainegoogle search for "libsdl-haa" yielded exactly one result and that was an irc log where someone said its in the "extras" repository17:54
bderenorcainebut as i have already said,  i already added all three17:54
Arif_I still haven't gotten qtirrecco to work17:55
Arif_if there's only one result17:55
Arif_maybe its called something else17:55
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bderenorcaineif i remove the quotes around libsdl-haa oder google libsdl and haa separately, i only get references to either libsdl or haa, but never on the same page. i have no idea how else it could be called17:58
bderenorcainebut i have a deb that depends on this17:58
Arif_that's odd17:58
nid0qtirecco doesnt work properly for me either :<17:58
Arif_stop using debs that depend on unfindable dependancies :P17:58
bderenorcainegreat, thanks17:59
nid0found I had to manually cp one of it's config files elsewhere and even then most remote profiles just seem to do nothing :\17:59
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Arif_maybe that's why it's in devel18:00
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AndrewFBlack_funny n900 browser wont access files on localhost if your running a webserver on n900 but not connected to a network18:04
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vanadismobilewhat about the other browsers?18:05
aquatixAndrewfblack: does it have a 'localhost' loopback then?18:06
aquatixand if you try
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AndrewFBlack_127.0.0.1 works18:07
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aquatixyou can try adding 'localhost' to the hosts file18:08
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LinuxCodestupid onjoin bots18:09
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* lcuk drops a bucket of mouldy herrings on LinuxCode 18:10
* LinuxCode dies in smelly fish junk18:10
pupniki believe our cpumem applet does not show battery drain by phone radio18:12
* Arif_ needs a new phone18:12
pupnikjust raked a couple hours, took one photo and shared it to flickr and ran about 2.5 hours of podcasts... battery down to 20 ,ct again18:13
pupnikfrom an indicated 95 pct18:14
* w00t headdesks18:14
w00tI just spent an hour wondering why my n900 isn't notifying me about email anymore18:14
Arif_you're not connected to the internet?18:14
w00tthen I remembered that I changed most of my filters to not dump stuff in my inbox, to avoid cluttering it and driving me crazy18:14
w00t(mailing lists etc.)18:14
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Arif_that'll work too18:14
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Arif_pupnik, I unplugged my phone yesterday18:15
Arif_set an alarm18:15
Arif_listened to 3 hours of internet radio18:15
Arif_and it's down 2 blocks18:15
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pupnikwhat program do you play stream with arif18:16
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aquatixw00t: :)18:17
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Arif_media player sucks at radio18:17
w00taquatix: you have no idea how happy yet frustrated that made me :P18:18
Arif_it goes to different channels every few minutes :P18:18
luke-jrArif_: which KMPlayer? the mplayer wrapper, or the illegal Windows media player18:18
Arif_the one from extras :P18:19
luke-jroh, #maemo18:19
Arif_oh great18:20
Arif_I can't wait for new firmware now18:20
Arif_apparently my search bug is fixed18:20
* Arif_ goes to Nokia HQ with a torch and fork18:21
zashArif_: do you want to borrow my pitchfork?18:21
* Hydroxide prefers pitchspoons18:22
Arif_I'll get you a €25 Ovi Store voucher on the way18:22
aquatixpitchknifes ftw18:22
Arif_you can use them as soon as Ovi gets any apps to buy18:22
* zash goes digging in some hay18:22
* lcuk believes developers work better when not threatened with pitchsporks18:23
* javispedro notes that deadlines alone are already enough threating for most developers, no need for pitchsporks18:23
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* Arif_ pokes lcuk with the pitchrollingpin18:24
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Arif_write a fat app for n90018:24
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lcuki prefer slim apps tyvm18:24
aquatixhmmm, sporks18:24
aquatixanyway, gone home18:25
Arif_Ovi store should have 100000 burp apps :(18:25
mgedmindeadlines make this nice whooshing sound when they fly by...18:25
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zashArif_: over 9000 isn't enouch?18:25
aquatixmgedmin: i love that sound18:25
mgedminyou and Douglas Adams18:25
Arif_zash, no18:26
aquatixmgedmin: i love Douglas Adams18:26
Arif_apple doesn't think so at least :D18:26
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nid0tbh ovi just needs one, angry birds level pack :<18:27
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* Arif_ sells nid0 the level pack for €2,9818:30
nid0please do :<18:30
matthew-And still no firmware updte for UK users of n90018:31
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matthew-that's stupid18:31
nid0ditch uk firmware, reflash global18:31
matthew-yeah will have to18:31
matthew-thou will have to backup atc..18:31
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ShadowJKdid you call nokia care and ask where the fw update is? :)18:32
Arif_Why's the UK so special it has its own firmware?18:33
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zaheermwe have a different keyboard ;)18:33
* ShadowJK threw out the idea on tmo that uk users could organize and have a call-nokia-care-and-ask-for-update day18:34
nid0ShadowJK, nokia care's response is it didnt come because of a "technical problem"18:34
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nid0funnily enough seems to be the same technical problem thats caused nokia to delay uk variant firmware updates on practically all of their phones for the past several years by timespans ranging from hours to forever18:34
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Arif_maybe they couldn't figure out how to get the ovi maps car icon to drive on the left side of the road18:34
javispedrodoes ovi maps have a car icon?18:35
Arif_the s60 one does18:35
Arif_haven't tried ovi on N90018:35
ShadowJKit might be im route settings18:35
javispedroI'm not sure the n900 ovi maps has maps.18:35
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nid0afaik driving on the left-right is built into the map not the software? :p18:36
javispedroah ok, I should leave ovi maps ranting for the pros.18:36
Arif_there's not much to rant18:36
ShadowJKthe idea behind calling nokia care is to provide feedback so that nokia eventually wakes up and stops considering the variants system a good thing18:36
Arif_since there's not much to use in the first place :P18:36
javispedrotouché :)18:36
tripzeroso hmmm. no maemo calculator?18:37
nid0ShadowJK, nokia have been getting blasted by their uk users for years over not releasing uk updates promptly/ever18:37
Arif_the media player is another story18:37
ShadowJKnid0: probably just on forums and blogs, which aren't read by the right people :D18:37
nid0still no uk release of v22.007 for e72's18:37
lcukjavispedro, ordered gles book and done some more investigations :)18:37
nid0worldwide variant was released on 12th of january.18:37
javispedrolcuk: good18:38
javispedrocan't wait to see what you'll do with gles :)18:38
* lcuk nods18:38
Arif_yay for product code changing \o/18:38
javispedrobtw, can't you flash the international image in uk phones? just curious18:39
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nid0at least the n900 is a step in the right direction in that a product code doesnt need changing.18:39
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SpeedEviljavispedro: yes, most can.18:39
* SpeedEvil can't as he's taking part in a trial.18:39
SpeedEvil(well, a survey)18:39
javispedropolitical impediments18:39
Arif_I'm running Win7 6418:39
Arif_I can't use the flasher18:39
nid0use xp mode, or a virtual machine18:39
Arif_I dont' have a UK phone18:39
Arif_SpeedEvil is sending all his data to Nokia!18:40
SpeedEvilThough it's anonamised supposedly.18:40
MiXu-Does flasher work in a virtual machine? I kinda doubt it.18:40
javispedrobehold !18:40
nid0it works fine.18:40
javispedroMaemo needs one of those, it's shipping microb!18:41
SpeedEvilI've yet to dig through and find if they are properly salting phonenumbers before sending themthough18:41
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MiXu-At least it didn't work in VMWare way back when I tried it18:41
SpeedEvilmd5sum phonenumbers = fail18:41
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, is it anonymized if you're the only one18:41
nid0it worked fine for me in both xp mode and virtualbox installs of ubuntu and xp18:41
Arif_I've never heard of half those browsers18:41
MiXu-Ok, good to know.18:41
SpeedEvilShadowJK: it does not send clear phonenumbers, but encrypts or hashes. I haven't investigatedwhich.18:42
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* javispedro demands a wizard for building build=x86_64 host=arm-gnueabi target=i386 binutils debian packages18:45
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ShadowJKHm, so minimalist dark is "16 Arial", and minimalist light is "xx-large Arial"18:46
ShadowJKI'm sure they were the same size before18:46
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* timeless_mbp is always on the lookout for oom!19:10
lbtmy wife is mean19:11
Corsacout of memory :)19:11
Arif_she took your N900?19:11
lbtapparently if I have time to rewrite my expenses spreadsheet using SQL then I've got time to clean the cooker... :(19:11
Arif_does she know what sql is19:11
v13she's got a point :)19:11
lbtoh yes19:11
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lbtI know.... annoying isn't it19:12
Arif_does she know how much you spend :P19:12
lbtshe runs the finances...19:12
Arif_then why are YOU making a spreadsheet19:12
lbtI get an allowance19:12
Arif_go do something useful19:12
lbtit's more fun than cleaning the cooker19:12
Arif_like cleaning the cooker19:13
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Arif_you get allowance from your wife?19:13
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lbtif I'm good19:13
Arif_how long did it take you to gather money for the N90019:13
lbtsummit freebie :)19:14
* Arif_ likes that word19:14
timeless_mbplbt: transporation?19:14
infobottimeless_mbp meant: lbt: transportation?19:14
lbtheh .... don't mention that to her :)19:14
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Arif_I live like 10km from where that summit19:15
lbtshoulda come...19:15
lbtnext time eh?19:15
Arif_I wouldn't get af ree phone :P19:16
lbtwe're starting to plan for sept 201019:16
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TomaszDlbt, any locations in particular?19:16
lbtTomaszD: up for suggestions atm19:16
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javispedrotmo seems to like Canada.19:16
lcuklbt, mrs lbt is very shrewd, you should complain that you cannot risk your poor hands by doing that sort of work.   (then duck/run as appropriate)19:17
lbtgood point mate... I'll try that19:17
* pupnik notes "photos" doesnt do .gif anims19:17
lcukits been nice knowing you!19:17
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Arif_I'd give you some advice too but I'm not married yet :P19:18
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Arif_you should just buy a new oven!19:19
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lcukapt-get uninstall oven-grime19:20
nid0apt-get autoclean19:20
nid0more appropriate, surely19:20
Arif_you need to update 40 dependancies19:20
TomaszDCanada... this means an 8 hour flight at least, I barely handled 3hrs to Barcelona19:20
Arif_and downgrade 6019:20
Arif_and you're missing 1219:20
Arif_have fun finding them manually :D19:21
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SpeedEvilTomaszD: go by ship.19:24
GAN900TomaszD, 3 hours? :P19:24
* GAN900 was in the air for at least 20 all told.19:24
SpeedEvillbt: self-cleaningoven.19:24
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GAN900Canada sounds good to me.19:26
Shapeshifterkeyboard bezel is coming off. Will return it as soon as the shop has a replacement in stock. Doesn't seem to be a common problem19:26
zaheermGAN900, where did you fly from?19:26
GAN900We've had two in Europe, time for another location.19:26
GAN900zaheerm, Tampa, Florida19:26
GAN900zaheerm, had to drive 4.5 hours to the airport first, tool19:26
zaheermGAN900, 20 hours seems a lot when there are direct flights to parts of the USA from barcelona...19:26
GAN900Friday was tough.19:27
GAN900zaheerm, sure, New York. :P19:27
GAN900So 3 or so to JFK then about 7 to BCN19:27
Arif_I vote for Istanbul19:27
GAN900zaheerm, the US is a big goddamn place. :P19:28
zaheermyah istanbul is an awesome city19:28
zaheermGAN900, i know i've been many times19:28
zaheermthe 20 hours was a return trip, then..i was thinking one way 20 hours is a lot of time to be in the air19:28
tripzerodid someone say "trip"?19:28
ponyofdeathhi guys, anyone know how i can insert pause into my dial string? , doesnt seem to work19:29
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bigbrovarI guys I woman just got the N900 (I dont know who advised her to) and now she is having issues using the ussd codes with her phone. I am trying to help her by using the ussd-widget but I cant figure out how it works.. any help?19:37
wormsxullait looks like the n900 is for real men (c) :p19:39
Arif_add the widget19:39
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Arif_and go to the settings19:39
Arif_enter a number19:39
Arif_and press it?19:39
WestSorry can I ask you something about the eMMC flashing of a N900?19:40
WestI really need your help19:40
ShadowJKwhat about it?19:40
WestI've been up all night trying to find a way to flash this tablet and clear its internal memory19:41
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konttoriJaffa: good post about the extras distribution change19:41
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Westand I always get this waiting thing19:41
Westand that theres no suitable device19:42
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mgedminWest, that's normal19:42
mgedmindid you try turning the N900 of and then plugging it into USB?19:42
infobotmgedmin meant: did you try turning the N900 off and then plugging it into USB?19:43
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Westyes I did that19:43
mgedminif you do that while flasher is waiting, everything else should Just Work19:43
Westthats the first thing i did to be honest19:43
bigbrovarArif_: I tried that and it just gave an error msg :(19:43
mgedminit did for me when I flashed the rootfs and then the eMMC19:43
bigbrovarit just said error19:43
Arif_tell her to wait for a new fw19:43
mgedminsome people also suggest holding down some key19:43
mgedminI forget which -- 'u' perhaps?19:43
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Westmaybe this will help...  I was trying to clear my micoSD with disk utility19:44
ShadowJKu, yeah19:44
Westand I hit the device by accident19:44
Westcleared it19:44
Westnow its just a mass storage formatted in FAT19:44
bigbrovarArif_: my ussd for checking balance for my carrier is *556#  I entered that as value to the Ussd Number field and it didnt seem to work :(19:45
bigbrovarArif_: i cant seem to find any user friendly documentation on the issue19:45
Arif_blame the creator :P19:45
Westso everytime I plug it in19:45
konttoriby the way, pr1.2 also impoves ussd support to some degree19:45
Arif_there IS no ussd support19:46
konttoriwell, improves in the sense that it adds partial, but not full support19:46
bigbrovarI blame Nokia for missing out on such a basic functionality in the first place.. the creator of the Ussd was just trying to help out19:46
GAN900konttori, post?19:46
Arif_will it say "Not supported" instead of "invalid number"?19:46
ShadowJKWest, is the flashing utility running when you plug in USB cable?19:46
konttorilol. It'll be more than that.19:47
javispedro"the creator of the ussd codes was just trying to help out" -- nice quote heh :)19:47
Westyes and i hold down u when i plug it in19:47
konttorinot that I care myself, as I never use ussd, so, that's why I don't remember the level of 'partial' either19:47
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ShadowJKWest, what OS are you running the flashing utility on?19:47
ShadowJKkonttori, maybe it's send-only without receive? :P19:47
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Westwindows vista19:48
konttorioh, get real ;)19:48
mgedminWest, have you ever flashed anything successfully?19:48
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Westyea i flashed with the other .bin file19:48
Westi just can't get this eMMC19:49
bigbrovarkonttori: well good for you.. lots of people use it.. especially many on pay as you go.. I have learned to live with it.. but its just pisses me when I see a poor average user suffer for the lack of such a basic functionality19:49
pupnikkonttori: do you have a spare n900 you could to use some battery rundown tests using mplayer driving the kernel alsa sound device directly?  i can give you the command line (bypassing P,A)19:49
infoboti heard flashing is
konttorisure, I agree. And I just wanted to voice out that there has been work to that end.19:49
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Westif it helps...  its stuck on the second circle of when its normally loads up19:50
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Westlike the loading animation19:50
pupnikit would be most useful if you did it using the same files as the other tests19:51
Westit just stays there forever19:51
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WestI just don't know what to do19:52
WestI just don't know what to do19:52
lcukwest, when i do flashing, i take battery out, plug in the usb cable (direct, no hub), start flasher and when it says "waiting for device" i plug in the battery19:52
GAN900Follow the instructions on the wiki?19:52
Westi'll try that lcuk19:53
Westand gan900...  seriously...  I've been there all night19:53
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GAN900How about Nokia just makes a freaking announcement about N900 support. . . .19:54
konttoriah, I digged now the details of the USSD support. Fremantle will only support unstructured supplementary services as the 'supported' level. There is a way to enable the rest as well.19:54
GAN900If you don't want people to complain then don't make them operate in a vacuum. . . .19:54
ShadowJKvacuum sucks19:54
javispedrooh, they made an announcement. they said "no".19:55
GAN900konttori, which post about Extras?19:55
GAN900All of the FUD seems to be coming from Nokia.19:55
javispedrothen again I'm not sure about he knew what he was talking about (or more appropiately, to WHOM he was talking to, and the large amount of pitchforks they had)19:55
GAN900They really don't seem to care about poisoning communities, however.19:55
konttoriGAN900: what are you talking about?19:56
pupnikjavispedro: ever play secret maryo world ?19:56
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javispedropupnik: nope, but seen it19:57
konttorihumm... so, what's the fud of meego?19:57
West<lcuk>so tried the battery in thing and it still gives me the "no suitable" thing19:57
lcukbah, are you using a hub19:57
Westdefine hub?19:57
Westcuz i don't think so19:58
javispedroWest: you said you were able to flash the rootfs/normal fw but not the emmc?19:58
Westyea thats it javi19:58
ShadowJKkonttori: People are still running around like headless chickens (and haven't stopped panicing  to have time to sift through blogs/tmo) after the initial " will be closed!!! Everybody join quick!" press release ;)19:58
konttoriit's pretty simple. considering n900 will have qt4.6 in pr1.2 along with the declarative support, and will get common web runtime support as well as qt mobility in summer(ish) release, it will be meego compliant in the way devices should.19:58
javispedroWest: since you only "erased" the MyDocs partition just reflashing the normal fw should work.19:58
konttoriwhat? Who said that site will be closed?19:58
WestI wish that were true javi...  but the phone still just shows up as a random mass storage unit19:59
Westno files...  nothing19:59
Westthe device that is19:59
javispedroit does not boot.19:59
Westit does19:59
ShadowJKkonttori, that's how normal people read the marketing-language in the press release, unfortunately19:59
Westits boots, starts up20:00
javispedroWest: ah, so you're asking for the default MyDocs files then?20:00
konttorianyway, maemo 5 will be perfectly viable development device for meego stuff. And should be able to run also meego stuff (except multitouch - which I still think is only a gimmick for everything else, but virtual kb)20:00
Westi guess so20:00
Westtrue factory reset i guess20:00
Westand i want to clear the contacts, calender...  everything20:00
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javispedromaybe flasher has some "if (fiasco image matches connected device) { } else { keep on searching device }" logic?20:01
ShadowJKkonttori, I wonder if I filed a RFE for t.m.o. to have a shortcut button to post a "don't panic" message in big friendly letters, would reggie implement it? :)20:02
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Westnot to mention that OVI suite doesn't recognise it20:02
Westnor does NSU20:02
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javispedroShadowJK: tell qgil to end all his posts with that :)20:02
lcukwest try a different usb plug20:02
konttorilol ShadowJK !20:02
GAN900konttori, problem is, there are a lot of issues with the base system that are starting to be marked for Harmattan.20:02
Westand it doesn't recognise the 32GB as a drive20:03
Westthese are all the issues i'm having20:03
konttoriGAN900: mobility API is there to abstract the differences20:03
GAN900konttori, so API application compatibility is really not what people are concerned about20:03
GAN900It's a red herring20:03
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konttorithe idea is that for most app developers it abstracts even the difference of developing for S60 or maemo20:03
konttoriGAN900: the what?20:03
RST38hmoo, javispedro, lcuk, konttori, GAN20:03
javispedro... but you still have to package it for s60, maemo, (and in the future) meego!20:04
lcukhey RST38h \o20:04
javispedromoo RST38h20:04
GAN900konttori, people don't care about API compatibility20:04
konttorijavispedro: sure. except if you make a web runtime app.20:04
RST38hGAN: I do.20:04
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TomaszDFinnish friends came by to visit, second day in a row of drinking, wish me luck...20:04
lcukjavispedro, easy  way round that, installation direct from git repository :D20:04
RST38hGAN: And yes, out of purely practical reasons20:04
konttoriGAN900: so, you mean then ABI compatibility?20:04
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GAN900konttori, they care about having the new features in Harmattan on N90020:04
andrewfblack_What about Theme Devs we have to learn a whole new thing everytime UI changes I say programmers have it easy :)20:05
* microlith boggles as modest cripples his N90020:05
konttorihumm... so... that would be the kind of issue I won't touch on a public forum with a ten foot pole.20:05
javispedrono one wants to touch it :)20:05
lcukAndrewfblack, nahhh if you think its bad modifying your themes, think about the hard dedicated work we put in every single day to find new ways to break them!20:05
konttoriI am pretty open about many things, but not when it comes to harmattan20:05
andrewfblack_lcuk: better not be finding ways to break them :)20:06
konttoriI can tell you that it may or may not happen. That's the extend of it.20:06
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GAN900konttori, so a lot of handwaving about API compatibility really doesn't make anybody feel better about Nokia turning the N900 in another 770.20:07
lcukAndrewfblack, jesting of course dude20:07
javispedroand tbh tmo easily makes an enormous fuss about it too quickly.20:07
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andrewfblack_lcuk: I know just messing with you20:07
GAN900konttori, not asking you to say anything on it.20:07
konttoriGAN900:  humm... yeah, I won't comment as you guessed.20:07
* andrewfblack_ is still looking for more programmers to help with his theme customization program...
GAN900konttori, just hoping you understand why people are upset and why Qt 4.6 is not really a be-all end-all answer to the FUD. :)20:08
Westso i tried all 4 of my USB ports20:08
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Westall the same product20:08
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GAN900Somebody really needs to corner a responsible party and beat a straight answer out of them.20:09
WestI even took a screen shot of where i get to20:09
GAN900The poison the business people continually inject into the community is getting out of hand.20:09
konttoriGAN900: I still don't understand.20:09
Westplease...  i've been up all night..20:09
lcukWest, go on, post screenie20:10
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lcukyou shouldv come and tried before20:10
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lcukbtw, what happens if you powerup and plug usb in - does it start chargingask for the mode "mass storage/pc suite"20:10
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Westwell I did20:10
lcukpics tho20:11
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GAN900konttori, there are a lot of issues in Fremantle and a lot of fixes for them as well as new things in Harmattam20:12
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konttorisure. And we are working like mad in improving fremantle as much as possible20:13
Westone sec20:13
* javispedro has recently filed two b.m.o bugs to backport some trivial tracker fixes from harmattan20:13
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GAN900konttori, so when somebody says "Will we get Harmattan on N900?" and somebody answers "Well, we have API compatibility." that's not an answer20:14
* lcuk gives javispedro a round of applause20:14
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konttoriGAN900: I didn't hear the question right then the first time20:14
* javispedro is happy because two bugs he also not-so-recently filed were fixed in pr1.2 :)20:14
konttoriif I had, I would have answered directly: no comment20:14
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konttorijavispedro: that's good to hear. even though, bugzilla is still not the one we are actively looking at. We have been having so much internally known issues that we have still focused mostly on those. We plan to switch direction in a weeks time20:15
GAN900konttori, but that's the answer a lot of Nokia people have been bringing20:15
konttoriso, immediately when pr1.2 is solid. (yeah, it still needs work)20:15
GAN900konttori, so this is addressing Quim's post on tmo.20:16
GAN900Really, though, I don't care much anymore.20:16
iPeter-Hey, could someone clear to me this: Does there come anymore updates to maemo 5?20:16
* RST38h actually thanked Quim's post, but doubts it will make any difference =(20:16
Westsorry for the delay20:16
RST38hiPeter: yes.20:17
Westhad some trouble with the account20:17
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lcukwhich post RST38h20:17
Weston maemo.org20:17
Westthe thread is called N900 Internal Memory Corrupted by Mac. Please Help20:17
West"N900 Internal Memory Corrupted by Mac. Please Help"20:17
GAN900Nokia doesn't want me as a customer, so I don't see much reason to invest time.20:17
GAN900RST38h, I didn't.20:17
iPeter-RST38h: So that meego wont mess it up? Do you know is there coming some bigger update soon, since lastest was only 16.2mb20:17
lcukWest, did you know the internet allows these things called hyperlinks20:18
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RST38hiPteter: You are asking too much20:18
WestI forgot20:18
GAN900RST38h, he should spend less time trying to reason with TMO and more time explaining to the business people why they're idiot.20:18
iPeter-RST38h: Ofc i'am :D20:18
RST38hGAN: I am tired explaining to business people why they are idiots =(20:18
RST38hGAN: Does not work. Even a working example of Apple *and* Google supporting their past customers does not fucking work.20:19
Westbut my lack of knowledge asside20:19
Westthere it is20:19
konttorijavispedro: yeh. We'll definitely merge those patches20:19
Westso please please PLEASe give me a hand20:19
WestI can only hide so much rum in my coffee =P20:20
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GAN900RST38h, so Nokia and I go our separate ways and the whole world weeps for what might've been. :rolleyes:20:20
javispedrokonttori: ta! :)20:20
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konttorijavispedro: but cannot do it for pr1.2 anymore :(20:20
Westplease help me figure out whats going on with my phone20:21
WestN900 Internal Memory Corrupted by Mac. Please Help20:21
Westthats where it is20:21
* GAN900 loves Ari's neverending streams of non-answers.20:21
Weston the site20:21
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javispedrokonttori: np, since tracker is oss20:23
konttoriGAN900: has he said something new?20:23
GAN900konttori, the talk link I posted.20:24
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lcukwest, give me a link to the thread you seem to be having so much trouble with20:24
GAN900Er, Ari I was just speaking generally20:24
konttorijavispedro: yeah. would make sense to take the new tracker to fremantle as well.20:24
WestN900 Internal Memory Corrupted by Mac. Please Help20:24
konttoriit's so much cleaner design.20:24
konttoriwe basically tore it apart for the 0.7 branch. I'm really happy how it turned out.20:25
konttori(for the harmattan version)20:25
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konttoriGAN900: ah, yeah, indeed, ari isn't commenting on that thread20:25
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lcukWest, the device is identified20:26
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lcukits just not doing its stuff beyond that20:26
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Westidentified *stupidest question ever*20:27
Westi don't understand the context20:27
lcuk"Found device RX-51, hardware revision 2101" is in the log you posted20:27
lcukit then goes on to do further things20:27
microlithIt sees the N900, but the "Suitable USB device not found, waiting" message is confusing20:27
WestI know but even while i've been talking to you...  its still there20:28
lcuki know, but this is a different issue than not just finding the device20:28
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microlithdoes the flasher handle the eMMC via the linux Mass storage export mode?20:28
lcukhow long ago did you flash your main firmware20:28
Westlast night20:28
lcukcan you just confirm again that that still happens20:29
lcukso we can be 100% sure that the usb connection "works"20:29
lcukand that this problem is something else20:29
GAN900konttori, wish somebody on the business end would.20:29
* pupnik wonders who will first wear out rx-51 kbd20:29
pupnikthumbs are cleaner now lcuk - we will see20:30
ShadowJKpupnik, I heard someone had already worn off the symbols20:30
Westok i'll do that and shout when its done20:30
lcukok west20:30
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ShadowJKGAN900, maybe someone needs to say "Hey guys you might've guessed but some time ago we formed a new team to sit in the Nokia basement and tinker on a new future operating system, and we decided to go hang out with nerds in Intel's basement and going to work with them to make this new awesome MeeGo thing. The usual Maemo 5 team will of course continue working as before at polishing and making Maemo 5 perfect, and we're also going to make it MeeGo compatibl20:33
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Westit still says my device memory card is still corrupted20:35
javispedroShadowJK: your plain fails to account that: people want the NEW, LATEST thing no matter what.20:35
ShadowJKyeah I guess20:35
javispedrothere's only one real solution: not to say a thing.20:35
RST38hjavis: not necessarily20:35
javispedrowhich is something I don't like.20:35
lcukWest, thats not what i asked.  did it connect to usb, flash ok, then boot properly to a new cleanly flashed device20:35
lcukone step at a time20:36
Westok my appologise20:36
* frals runs around in panic screaming "gitorious is down"20:36
ShadowJKjavispedro, there's also the repeated feeling of abandonment, people think nokia abandoned all maemo work ;)20:36
* RST38h will own a decent pair of headphones for the first time in his life20:36
ShadowJKRST38h, oh?20:36
RST38hWondering how it will feel =)20:36
ShadowJKprobably "oh... :/"20:36
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wiretapped'simply saying "Please don't talk about our embarrassing lack of communication" doesn't actually solve the problem'20:36
RST38hShadowJK: as in disappointment? :)20:36
ShadowJKRST38h, what headphones?20:37
javispedrosame question I wanted to ask :)20:37
RST38hwiretapped: Actually, there is no need for communication here20:37
lcukRST38h, just think, now you will be able to hear the defects in the mp3 + compressed bt stream + bad singers etc20:37
RST38hShadowJK: BH90520:37
lcuksometimes having better is not good :D20:37
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RST38hlcuk: Naah I am tone deaf =)20:37
GAN900ShadowJK, problem is, the Maemo 5 team is mostly with the nerds in the basement.20:37
wiretappedRST38h: where? on the issue of the N900's future?!20:37
lcuklol RST38h i thought i was blind until i saw porn in hd20:37
ShadowJKGAN900, yeah sure, but that makes them the more awesomer20:37
lcuknow i wish i was20:38
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RST38hwirtetapped: All you need to do is create a credible record of supporting existing devices20:38
wiretappedRST38h: right. which they've done the exact opposite of.20:38
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RST38hwiretapped: Once you do that (like Apple or Google did), people will stop wondering whether their gadget world will end the moment a new gadget is introduced20:38
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RST38hPuff! PR problem gone!20:38
wiretappedso, the safe bet is on them not supporting the N900. and if they would just communicate that that is the case, we could all stfu and move on20:38
GAN900I hate that Nokia decides to put the emergency brakes on all of their current community inertia with each update.20:38
ShadowJKRST38h, I haven't heard, but I thought the a2dp SBC encoding disqualified all bluetooth solutions from being "decent"20:39
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RST38hlcuk: Porn in HD probably looks uncomfortable20:39
javispedroRST38h: I miss the "but don't actually support existing devices" part.20:39
Westits completed with no problems lcuk20:39
lcukyes as i bet mp3s through bluetooth sound on excellent headphones20:39
ShadowJKand active noise cancelation.. ew :/20:39
lcukok west20:39
* Arif_ burps20:39
lcukso you are not having usb problems20:39
RST38hShadowJK: Dunno, I tried BH504 at the Nokia flagship store, with X620:39
lcukyou are having eMMC problems20:40
RST38hShadowJK: They are very decent20:40
lcukthanks for confirming20:40
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* lcuk now moves to next thing20:40
Westthank you for your time btw20:40
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RST38hShadowJK: So, I guess things should work reasonably well, at least for MP3s20:40
ShadowJKRST38h, admit it, you only want them because marina has them20:40
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javispedroif it's anything near cheap I'll get them.20:41
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RST38hShadowJK: Also BH905 has optional wires and the noise cancellation is optional too20:41
lcukok West now, where did you get the instructions for flashing the emmc and what documentation are you following (use those hyperlink things and be specific please)20:41
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Arif_use wired headphones?20:41
RST38hjavis: Amazon offers them for $200, reasonably cheap20:41
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RST38hShadowJK: Who is Marina? =)20:41
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Arif_200 for headphones?20:41
* Arif_ runs away20:41
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fzfq3m_can somebody tell me what pluging should I use to have Facebook integrated with my contacts and conversations??20:41
Westhere it is lcuk:20:41
RST38hArif: List price is [[prepare] $40020:41
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Arif_I got my N900 for 40020:42
RST38hArif: Street price is $300.20:42
* javispedro runs away too. first looks at its current $5 headphones, then keeps running.20:42
ShadowJKArif_, yeah certainly they wont be as awesome as Sennheiser's Orpheus headphones at $10,000 :P20:42
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iPeter-Is there any application (plugin) to get desktop icons on same line, like "snap to grid" or something.20:42
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RST38hiPeter: Tweakr20:42
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Arif_ShadowJK if you have too much money my bank account is always open for donations20:43
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RST38hShadowJK: Oh.20:44
Westis that ok?20:44
ShadowJKWest, I was reading that earlier and noticed the instructions had two lines that said "Insert USB CAble" or similar... thought htat was odd :)20:44
Arif_I got these :P20:44
lcukyes west, just confirming all the bits20:44
* frals bashes head against the desk20:45
Westonce again...  thank you for your time lcuk20:45
ShadowJKArif_, cool, balanced armature20:45
fralsgot a bug report "hey my message list isnt scrolling"20:45
fralsturns out, it does scroll, but appearently not as smooth as the list in addressbook... >-<20:45
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lcukwest how did you get it into this state in the first place20:45
lcukcos people dont normally need to reflash the emmc much20:46
Arif_ShadowJK, you put them on weird though20:46
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lcukfrals, im afraid javispedro is right20:46
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Arif_oh and I don't know what armature means :blush:20:46
ShadowJKArif_, well it's not normal speaker tech20:47
ShadowJKArif_, looks like they're designed to have the wire loop around the ear?20:47
fralslcuk: :(20:47
javispedrolcuk: actually I was in tmo mode :), but hey, we know you're the local smoothness expert :)20:47
* Arif_ thinks they sound pretty good20:48
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fralsneed to dump python at some point to make it smooooooooooooooooooth ;<20:48
RST38hIn-ear headphones suck though20:48
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RST38hfrals: There is no better time than RIGHT NOW20:48
Arif_RST38h, normal ones fall out of my ears all the time20:48
lcukyo ucan still use python, but emcapusalte the whole thing inside a single function inline optimized asm blob20:48
RST38hfrals: And drop python from that app for sending #xxxx* numbers too20:48
Westpluged my n900 into my macbook pro.  I was using disk utility to try and work out a reading problem I was having with the microSD.  Clicked the wrong device.  Set the format to FAT (MS-DOS) and formatted the phone memory.  Noticing my error...  I canceled the format quickly.  but the bar was already 1/8th of the way through by the time i clicked it.20:49
RST38hArif: I can say the same about in-ears =(20:49
fralslol lcuk20:49
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* Jaffa unfoods.20:49
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ShadowJKNormal ones could be okay for me if I could make them stay in ear, and make them stay pushed against the earcanal so that sound doesn't leak out20:49
fralsRST38h: that stuff isnt mine at least ;D20:49
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iPeter-RST38h: Thanks alot of the tip, (:20:49
RST38hfrals: Ah, good reason to copy it though =)20:49
lcukWest, that sounds like an intelligent thing to do20:50
Arif_RST38h, they only fit well with the biggest piece thingies20:50
* Arif_ has big ears20:50
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* Arif_ has big everything :P20:50
* javispedro ponders why his amazon's "personalized" front page is full of unlocked n90020:50
Arif_maybe that's why I can't use the N900 keyboard properly :hmmm:20:50
lcukwest in the device itself (unplug everytihng take out memory card)20:50
Westunquestionably...  and hence i come to the ones that know more then me20:50
lcukwhat actually works20:50
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Arif_javispedro, there are locked N900s?20:51
iPeter-Is there any way to disable that when you open lens cover, camera app starts?20:51
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javispedroArif_: dunno, but that does prevent from from using the "unlocked" word.20:51
javispedros/does prevent/does not prevent, s/from from/from20:51
Arif_did you buy one?20:51
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javispedrogod no.20:52
Westtook the memory card out20:52
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fralsfuckin hell20:53
fralsnot too pleased with ubuntu right now20:53
fralsplugged in ethernet cable and touchpad stopped working20:53
javispedroclearly, a wizard did it.20:54
Arif_only on Linux!20:54
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Wizzupnot quite20:54
WizzupHappens to me a lot on windows too20:54
* ShadowJK blames NotWorkManager20:54
Arif_there is such a manager?20:55
ShadowJKI call it NotworkManager, because that's what it usually does on my computers20:55
LinuxCodeShadowJK, whats wrong with NM ?20:55
LinuxCodeworks very well in Fedora20:56
Arif_wind00s ftw20:56
ShadowJKCan you tell me how to make it not overwrite /etc/resolv.conf with crap? Or alternatively, how to make it write the crap I want there?20:56
Westyou still there?20:57
javispedro<overkill>use selinux to prevent it from writing the file </overkill>20:57
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ShadowJK<lcuk> what actually works20:58
Arif_why does windows setup always prompt you to restart with every install20:58
ShadowJKalthough I don't think formatting the vfat partition would have that much of an impact on the entire emmc device from a flashing point of view... but who knows :/20:58
ShadowJKI mean, /home is still intact even after that, right..20:59
lcukwest, open file manager20:59
javispedroShadowJK: that's what I'm thinking too.20:59
lcukand see whats listed (without your good mmc still plugged in20:59
lcuklongtap on the possibly corrupted item and see if you can format it from there20:59
West"no files/folders20:59
Westliterally nothing except that21:00
lcukok, i cant do anything more from gui :$21:00
lcukand i know nothing about how to try reformatting from console21:00
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lcukyou have goosed your mydocs by reformatting it in your mac21:01
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lcukor partially21:01
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javispedroso you think it's failing to boot in mmc flash mode because the mydocs partition is weirdly hosed?21:01
lcukim not sure21:01
ShadowJKI don't know why it would care21:01
lcukbut we confirmed usb "works"21:01
lcukwe confirmed the device is seen21:01
lcukwe know it boots21:02
javispedroShadowJK: i'm used to stuff like that from palm devices at least.21:02
lcukthe problem does appear to manifest when entering boot mode21:02
javispedrobugs like those were ... awfully common.21:02
lcukerr flash mode21:02
javispedroif you want to flash the MyDocs partition21:02
javispedrosomething like that21:02
javispedrorootsh mkfatfs /dev/mmcblk0p2 would work21:03
ShadowJKmkfs.vfat ?21:03
javispedrosymlink to mkfatfs iirc.21:03
* javispedro just shut down the n900 minutes ago and now has to boot it back :(21:04
Arif_why would you shut it off21:04
ShadowJKmkdosfs, but executing it as mkfs.vfat tells it to create a vfat file system21:04
javispedrothere's no actual difference21:05
javispedrofrom a formatting app PoV21:05
Westok so theres nothing i can do?21:05
fralsso flashing was pretty easy when you used linux instead of win7 x6421:05
* javispedro bangs head21:05
Westso theres nothing  at all>?21:06
arachnisteverything is easy if you use linux instead of windows21:06
arachnistexcept for gaming, maybe21:06
javispedrobtw the actual partition is /dev/mmcblk0p121:06
lcukactually i like windows so i can see outside without getting cold21:06
lcuki tried having linux up behind my curtains but it didnt keep the rain out21:07
javispedrolcuk: so should I give the guy cmd line MyDocs partitions formatting instructions?21:07
fralslol lcuk21:07
lcukwell since i wouldnt understand them either i dont think it will do much good21:08
lcuksince you have already formatted iwtht mac21:08
lcukwhat happens if you plug it in again21:08
lcukdoes it give option to format still?21:08
javispedrooh, it's (relatively) easy. just install rootsh from app mgr, type "rootsh mkfatfs /dev/mmcblk0p1"21:09
lcuk"just" is a big step for some people21:09
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ShadowJKmkdosfs not mkfatfs21:11
javispedroah, thanks ShadowJK21:12
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* ShadowJK 'd use mkfs.vfat anyway21:12
javispedrovfat vs fat is nearly the same. the only thing that matters here is 16 vs 32.21:12
javispedrobut since this is just temporary to get it to reflash (I hope)21:13
pupniki wonder if we could get more security from a chrooted browser?21:14
shinkamuiyou gem of gems21:14
pupniksorry if that is funny21:15
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Westis there maybe something i can do in xterminal?21:18
javispedroWest: for now I suggest you repeat the process in disk utility,21:18
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javispedroand let it finish formatting.21:18
Westok i'll try21:18
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javispedro(then try again to reflash the emmc if you want to get the builtin content)21:19
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pupnikwas thing of bsd jails actually, forgot how different linux chroot is21:20
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MaikBHey guys.  I'm running the scratchbox maemo SDK on my x86_64 ArchLinux box and inside a Ubuntu i686 via VirtualBox.  I try to use gdbserver with FREMANTLE_ARMEL, but gdbserver tells me ...21:23
MaikBgdbserver :1234 ./a.out21:23
MaikBwaitpid: No child processes.21:23
MaikBis this a known issue?21:23
ptldoes anyone know where cynaest saves the IMDB files?21:23
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javispedrowhy would you want to use gdbserver _inside_ scratchbox?21:24
MaikBbecause gdb says...21:24
MaikB gdb ./a.out ...21:25
MaikBStarting program: /home/maik/a.out21:25
MaikBDon't know how to run.  Try "help target".21:25
javispedrodon't use the armel target to debug21:25
javispedroeither use the x86 target or a real device21:25
javispedro(on a real device you can run gdbserver)21:25
MaikBI've done this, it works fine, but I wondered if this is a know issue, because google didn't know about this21:27
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javispedrothe armel target is emulated21:27
lcukwest did you try formatting from your mac21:28
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lcukyes there are terminal commands but i dont know them21:28
Westits going through right now21:28
lcukits formatting?21:28
Weston a side note...  is the vanilla eMMC file an image?21:29
lcukis it formatting?21:29
javispedroa "FIASCO" image, yes.21:29
Westok one sec21:29
Westmight have an idea21:29
javispedrobut it needs a bit of work to extract the fat filesystem from it (if it's doable)21:29
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* lcuk goes nom since west wont answer a question ;)21:30
Westand yes it did21:31
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lcukwest when its finished then does your device come operational again21:33
Westit didn't21:34
hrwsomeone know why OGG Vorbis is still totally ignored by anything on maemo5? I even have 'extra decoders' 'ogg vorbis support' etc installed but tracker (after reset of its database) does not index ogg music files21:34
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javispedrohrw: try /usr/lib/tracker/tracker-extract -v3 -f your_music_file.ogg21:35
javispedroand see what happens and why it's not using the gst plugin to parse it21:35
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hrwjavispedro: log of extract is empty21:37
javispedrohm.. that shouldn't log, but print to stdout.21:38
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javispedroah sorry21:38
javispedromissed a space between "v" and "3"21:38
javispedroso tracker is doing its job :S21:40
javispedroyou even have the vorbis plugin which is not part of the nokia tracker (my guess is that ogg support is packaging it)21:41
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hrwsure, but mediaplayer still does not list file21:41
MaikBhm, are by any chance files in MyDocs not executable?21:43
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MaikBchmod +x seems to have no effect21:43
hrwMaikB: this is vfat...21:43
javispedroMyDocs is both mounted noexec and a VFAT filesystem.21:43
SpeedEvilNo, THIS IS SPARTA!21:43
MaikBjavispedro: thx!21:43
hrwjavispedro: looks like during night I need to reencode ~1GB of oggs to mpegaudio just to make nokia crap recognize music as music21:44
hrw~curse nokia so called developers21:44
infobotMay the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, nokia so called developers !21:44
RST38hhrw: Shouldn't have used Ogg in the first place21:44
javispedrohrw: dunno, I already reencoded my library to aac.21:44
* RST38h cackles evilly21:44
SpeedEvilhrw: at least you can do that overnight on the phone :)21:44
MaikBSo Nokia has to pay M$ for using FAT, like TomTom and Amazon21:44
RST38hjavis: mp3->aac is pretty useless =)21:44
hrwRST38h: oggs works fine on my desktop or on my s60 phone21:45
hrwonly maemo (os2005/6/8/m5) have problems with it21:45
javispedros60 with 3rd party player I guess21:45
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hrwbut it is discharded now so cant confirm for sure21:46
MaikBhm, I use ogg all the time on my n900 via some extra package I installed but can't remember the name of it21:46
javispedro(apt name)21:46
MaikBthats it21:46
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MaikBI use apt-(get|cache) most of the time instead of the Prog-Manager21:47
hrwogg-support 1.0.6~rc1 installed21:47
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MaikBhrw, dpkg -l *ogg* gives me
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hrwMaikB: same21:50
javispedrofwiw, did you restart?21:51
pupnikis there a linux/gtk paste buffer with a preview and multiline history we could port?21:51
hrwjavispedro: I installed ogg-support long time ago21:53
SpeedEvilpupnik: that could share automagically over 'tinternet.21:53
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MaikBjavispedro: Just for the record, the problem I wanted to debug seems on ARMEL scratchbox only. The program runs fine on the device and sbox-X86.  So I guess I should only sb-ARMEL only for compiling21:55
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pupnikSpeedEvil: i do not understand.  I would sometimes like to repaste a url i pasted hours earlier21:56
konttoripupnik: isn't there already such an toolbar widget?21:56
konttoriI have faint recollection of seeing something like that on maemo.21:56
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SpeedEvilpupnik: I mean - it might be nice if you had a shared clip between phone and destop21:56
hrwMaikB: armel sbox do not have working x11 system so console+building only21:57
konttoriSpeedEvil: synergy can share cliboard between device and desktop. (and kb and mouse)21:57
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RST38hkonttori,pupnik: Such widget exists, for Maemo421:59
* RST38h has not seen it for Maemo521:59
MaikBhrw, I had another problem.  I play with a programming language called falcon ( A dynamic language which allows i.e. UTF8 identifiers for variables and a bunch for programming paradigms). There is so gui involved, but the testing suite just stucks on sbox-ARMEL21:59
MaikBhrw, I wanted to debug this, but the problem went away when running in on the device22:00
MaikBthat was the full story, bro :D22:00
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RST38hElite blogger, with admiring readers:
hrwok, so ogg->mp3 or ogg->aac?22:01
hrwwhich you suggest?22:01
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RST38haac if you have space to spare, mp3 otherwise22:01
MaikBhm, does the N900 have an hardware MP3 and ACC decoder?22:01
SpeedEvilMaikB: no22:01
RST38hor find stuff in the original mp322:01
SpeedEvilMaikB: ithasa DSP, which can  do that.22:02
SpeedEvilMaikB: or much else.22:02
hrwRST38h: I have original CDs22:02
hrw-rwxrw-r-- 1 hrw hrw  1649723 03-01 21:01 01.aac22:02
hrw-rw-r--r-- 1 hrw hrw  2716700 02-02 12:19 01. Waltz in C sharp minor_cis-moll_en ut di?se mineur, Op.64 No.2.ogg22:02
MaikBSpeedEvil: Ah, so accelerated ( thus battery life saving ) for ogg can be implemented?22:02
MaikBis it?22:02
lucasssh udd22:02
hrwmp3 is a bit smaller22:03
SpeedEvilMaikB: any hw accellerated codec can be implemented.22:03
RST38hhrw: Ok. Then forget the ogg.22:03
RST38hhrw: Go with mp3.22:03
SpeedEvilFindingthe implementor...22:03
RST38hhrw: Only encode into aac if you are planning on destroying the original CDs22:04
konttoriRST38h: ah, that's probably it then. Well, should be pretty easy to port22:04
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RST38hkonttori: not sure: the desktop intgration APIs have changed a lot22:04
hrwSystem plików         rozm. użyte dost. %uż. zamont. na22:05
hrw                      1,4T  747G  559G  58% /home/hrw/mounts/sheevaplug22:05
arachnistbtw, has anyone of you changed hostname of your n900? i did, but i'm not sure if there aren't some unexpected consequences22:05
hrwRST38h: 560GB still free22:05
hrwarachnist: in worst situation it will go into rebootloop22:05
MiXu-Why would you want to change it22:05
hrwkonttori: nasty question can I?22:05
hrwmy n900 uses n900-42.11 as hostname22:06
fralsarachnist: ive changed hostname on mine and it seems to work fine22:06
arachnistMiXu-: because "N900-whatever" doesn't look so personalized22:06
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konttorihrw: yeah?22:06
hrwkonttori: any date for pr1.2? iirc you said 'this week' 2 weeks ago22:06
timeless_mbpi just picked up an eee70122:06
arachnisthrw: try unsetting LC_ALL/LANG before pasting things next time. i do understand everything there, but most of people here don't22:06
timeless_mbpi'm looking for suggestions for os's for it22:06
konttoriwell, no dates, as a policy. but I can sure tell that it's not this week22:06
MiXu-arachnist: Yeah, but no one but you generally sees it :)22:06
RST38hhrw: hey not before the media player applet is fixed =)22:06
timeless_mbpi'd like to run moblin if possible, but if someone knows of an image for Mer or something, i'm open :)22:06
konttoriI would be surprised if we finish it this week22:06
arachnisttimeless_mbp: well, it has the same screen resolution as the 700/N800/N810/N90022:07
arachnisttimeless_mbp: not like i'm suggesting anything ;)22:07
RST38hkonttori: I am almost inclined to say that the awesome LED Editor app should be merged into Maemo5 LED Settings =)22:07
konttoriand it has pretty decent (as mobile devices go) 3d accelerator22:07
hrwarachnist: df output is standard ;)22:08
hrwRST38h: I do not care about it ;)22:08
konttorihumm.. led editor? never seen that.22:08
* konttori fetches his device22:08
hrwkonttori: led-pattern-editor22:08
RST38hkonttori: Install it (from the System group)22:08
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: might have a funny Mer^2 image for you to play with - it's basically debian5.0 with fremantle x86 stuffed on top22:08
MaikBDo you guys build .deb's for testing stuff on your device or just copy it over to /home/user/foobar ?22:09
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HukkaJust copy22:09
timeless_mbpStskeeps: hit me22:09
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Stskeepstimeless_mbp: zipping up and uploading22:10
timeless_mbpStskeeps: bonus points if it's something i can safely add to an existing n900 mmc :)22:10
hrwMaikB: depends22:10
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Stskeepstimeless_mbp: currently x86 only :P22:10
* timeless_mbp doesn't really have lots of random usb volumes available22:10
timeless_mbpStskeeps: i don't want to boot my n900 from it22:10
* konttori had just flashed a latest and greatest and needs to restore backup (and all applications with it) before continuing.22:10
timeless_mbpi want to use my n900 as the storage host for the eeepc :)22:10
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: ah22:11
ptlfound it, cinaest uses .cache/cinaest for the databases!22:11
timeless_mbpit's probably by far my largest usb stick :)22:11
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hrwA=$PWD;for dir in *;do cd "$dir";for song in *.ogg;do SONG2=`basename "$song" .ogg`.aac; ffmpeg -i "$song" -ab 128k "$SONG2";done;cd "$A";done22:13
hrwsimple ;D22:14
wolf^konttori, 3d accelerator in n900 kinda sucks when accelerating 2d gfx (ortho projection, lots of blending, etc)22:14
wolf^konttori, I especially liked the remarks about not using "discard" in shaders in the spec ;)22:14
Arif_will we have to wait for rebuilds for all apps in PR1.2 now?22:14
konttorihmm... ortho projection should not be an issue in speed afaik.22:15
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SpeedEvilhrw: for dir in */22:15
zashhrw: ${song%.ogg}.aac22:15
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konttoribut sure, blending comes with penalty22:15
wolf^konttori, the speed advantage is due to the tiling engine and rendering only the surface that's on the top (ie. closest to camera)22:16
hrwzash: $song has spaces inside and this way works22:16
hrwSpeedEvil: there are only dirs there22:16
wolf^konttori, using blending, or discard, forces everything to be rendered22:16
hrwzash: but thx for hint22:16
zashhrw: "${song%.ogg}.aac"22:16
konttoriwolf^: well, the whole visible zbuffer22:16
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wolf^konttori, I don't think so22:17
konttoriwolf^: anyway, sgx isn't exactly desktop level accelerator.22:17
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wolf^konttori, what if you have a solid box with rounded alpha-channel corners22:18
wolf^konttori, as a one texture22:18
wolf^konttori, in software I can just memcpy the solid blocks22:18
wolf^konttori, I don't think that the povervr can do the same and it's doing blending for all of the texture22:18
wolf^effectively rendering something that will be never seen22:18
hrwzash: I am impressed that it works even with busybox sh22:19
konttoriyeah, 3d acceleration has it's perks and cons22:19
konttori(for 2d that is)22:19
zashhrw: how much bash specific stuff does it have?22:20
wolf^konttori, good thing that n900 is excellent when it comes to the software rendering performence with xlib22:20
* timeless_mbp sighs22:20
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konttoriyeah. for example qml is usually just as fast software rendered as it is opengl accelerated.22:21
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konttoriwolf^: what are you working on?22:22
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wolf^konttori, I have a simple test, two parallax scroll layers, quite big sprite, and some triangle rasterizer-based sprites22:22
wolf^konttori, it's 30 fps software and 20 fps hardware22:22
wolf^konttori, sorry, can't tell22:22
wolf^konttori, games ;)22:22
mgedminfor years now I've been reading about Cairo optimization and how their hardware-accelerated backend almost reached the speed of the pure software implementation22:23
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hrwkonttori: kudos for
konttorihrw: thanks. I really hope I find some time tomorrow to get it started.22:24
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konttoriwolf^: hmm.. that should be running faster hw accelerated than what you are describing22:26
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Gnomehello. can you please help me install the Transmission bittorrent client for my N900?22:26
MaikBDoes somebody have experience with QPainter performance when used with a QGLWidget?22:27
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MaikBI'm thinking about using this instead of SDL22:27
wolf^konttori, my software blitter is really optimized :)22:27
konttoriah, but still, the 20 fps sounds odd. Are you running in full screen+22:28
konttori(and thus non-composited)22:28
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qgilhi, is working reliably for you? I'm able to load pages only at times22:30
konttoriMaikB: you might want to also ask on #qt-maemo22:30
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konttoriqgil: yeah, works well22:30
Stskeepsno issues here22:30
w00tevenin' qgil22:30
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MaikBkonttori: ah, didn't there is such a thing22:30
konttoriqgil: how about doing
w00tevenin' konttori, Stskeeps, others, too :)22:31
fralsevening w00t o/22:31
w00they frals! how goes?22:31
konttoriwe could make a plan for at least the 2 releases already now with the highlights onto the roadmap22:31
fralsall good here, you?22:31
qgilweird, I can connect to this chat but then it seems the access point or something is not being reliable at all with browser (my laptop, my N900 and my partner's laptop...)22:31
w00tabsolutely fantastic22:31
w00ttoday is a good day :)22:32
qgilprecisely tonight with the N900 FUD thread running...  :)22:32
* hrw -> out22:32
fralsindeed, just installed my new hd5850 ;D22:32
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konttorithere is a fud thread? (or do you mean the one you started?)22:32
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w00tkonttori: roadmap is a great idea, and I much appreciate your committing to follow it up22:32
hrwkonttori: you forgot? qgil is master of fud22:32
hrwjoking of course22:33
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qgilkonttori: the one I started and wanted to start addressing tonight22:33
MaikBI just don't get why the people are so worried about their N900 being left behind my MeeGo.  Its another Linux distribution,yes, but most of the program should just run fine be recompiling them,22:33
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konttoriah, then I know what you mean. And that link I posted ( ) is related to that22:33
MaikBOr did I miss something important?  Will they stop maintaining kernel drivers or something?22:33
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qgilkonttori: I could read your post and even thank you, now waiting for the next WWW connection cut22:34
qgilkonttori & co, do you think it's worth starting that wiki page even if the 1M$ question won't be answered there?22:35
timeless_mbpqgil: hey22:36
timeless_mbpworks great in the browser, even in portrait mode :)22:36
w00tqgil: your threads attract an impressive amount of attention :)22:36
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timeless_mbpMaikB: to be fair, nokia's record of supporting old products is hardly stellar22:36
timeless_mbpand linux kernel is fairly aggressive about ditching modules which lack live maintainers22:37
w00tqgil: yes, I do - because even if it ends out with "meego isn't available" (something I find unlikely tbh, there's few technical reasons if any that will be the case), it might help allay fears that n900 is abandoned in any form :P22:37
konttoriqgil: yeah, I was planning to try to allocate at least an hour tomorrow for it in case I get go ahead (this kind of thing I would want to clear with you and esko and possibly peter)22:37
timeless_mbp(c.f. android for a recent example, or older nokia devices for slightly less recent examples)22:37
* timeless_mbp busy waits on Stskeeps22:37
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* frals converts timeless_mbp to a monitor instead22:38
timeless_mbpfrals: well, i'm also polling some other things22:38
timeless_mbp scrub: scrub in progress, 92.83% done, 0h17m to go22:38
timeless_mbperrors: 419 data errors, use '-v' for a list22:38
timeless_mbpthat's my old hdd22:39
MaikBtimeless_mbp: If read the stories about this.  I guess Google decided to stick to an particular kernel version and thus have no interest in maintaining it in upstream22:39
timeless_mbpit's a bit unhappy :(22:39
timeless_mbpMaikB: it hardly matters22:39
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timeless_mbpmost vendors as vendors do not have infinite time to work upstream22:39
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timeless_mbpnokia has used a handful of kernel versions <<1022:39
pupnikhrw is ffmpeg lower cpu use than mplayer -q?22:39
MaikBtimeless_mbp: nobody does, but the deal is to take and give22:39
* timeless_mbp ponders22:40
MaikBhowever, I guess the kernel does well without android contributions22:40
timeless_mbpthe classic expression is 'give and take' ...22:40
pupnikI want a directory based superlowbatteryuse media player for toolbar22:40
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MaikBtimeless_mbp: The thing that needs love is Xorg.  Fortunately Intel invest money and time into it.22:41
pupnikand i think the time is starting wednesday22:41
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timeless_mbpStskeeps: hrm, how do i feed that to my eeepc?22:41
* timeless_mbp downloads22:42
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Stskeepsuploading a tar.gz too now22:42
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meceneed some help with a c++ problem with gtkmm.22:43
luke-jrStskeeps: what's the point? :p22:43
Stskeepsluke-jr: N8x0 backport since gentoo has failed to deliver a usable mobile experience ;p22:43
meceanyone have some skills in that area?22:44
RST38h"Note: "More..." application menu will be remove in PR1.2"22:44
RST38hoh yeaaaah22:44
luke-jrStskeeps: doesn't sound like a backport at all from that post. and Gentoo's inability to deliver is totally Nokia's fault :P22:44
mgedminwhat will happen them?22:44
mgedminone large scrollable menu?22:44
mecemgedmin, yep22:44
RST38h+ folders I guess22:44
meceoo nice.22:44
meceno c++ coders here?22:45
RST38hfolder functionality has been there already just not enabled22:45
Stskeepsluke-jr: fremantle is armv7 based :/22:45
Stskeepsluke-jr: hence the need to do it like this22:45
Stskeepsi really need to recompile things22:45
timeless_mbpRST38h: no folders22:45
timeless_mbpcatorize can give you folders22:45
timeless_mbpbut the system doesn't really support them22:45
luke-jrStskeeps: relevance?22:45
timeless_mbpunless konttori got them to fix the bugs i showed him22:45
luke-jrI mean trying to make Hildon "look like" N90022:46
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Stskeepsluke-jr: the important part is the WM things22:46
luke-jr*why* :p22:46
* timeless_mbp wonders what the latest catorize update did22:46
mecebaah I'm just gonna blurt out my problem and see if anyone bites.22:46
Stskeepsluke-jr: cos there's still a vocal n8x0 community22:46
konttoritimeless_mbp: yeah, bugs are known, but not important enough for pr1.2 anymore (sorry all) to justify changes. If the schedule changes, then surely, we can push those in22:47
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timeless_mbpkonttori: fine w/ me22:47
timeless_mbpjust noting it22:47
meceSo I have a gdk::pixmap and I need to add that thing to a Gtk::Image. Problem is that the existing code uses image->property_pixmap() = pixmap_name22:47
mecebut that doesn't work in maemo.22:47
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timeless_mbpRST38h: oh, catorize uses folder icons22:48
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timeless_mbpit's not that they aren't possible22:48
meceso the proper way to do it would be to use image->set(pixmap, mask)22:48
mecebut where the hell do I get a mask?22:48
timeless_mbpit's that the pr1.2 system will not usefully support folders22:48
mecemust I make a new bitmap from scratch to do this?22:48
konttoritimeless_mbp: well, that's debateable. Folders work just fine. You just cannot reorganize within (or amongst) folders.22:49
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konttoriit's not trivial to fix properly, so I decided that we won't put effot to it.22:49
timeless_mbpfor 1.2 or post? :)22:49
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konttorias the categorization by itself helps the issue a lot22:49
* timeless_mbp nods22:49
konttoriwell, post we can entertain all sorts of ideas22:49
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timeless_mbpi'm kinda surprised that it'd be so complicated to support though...22:50
timeless_mbpit seems to me that you should have a per directory file and a list of items for the current directory22:50
konttoriand if we allow reordering within, then people will start asking for amongst. Then you start wanting to be able to create new.22:50
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timeless_mbpyeah well22:50
konttoriand considering that pr1.2 model went away from folders to a flat list, it makes most sense to not to concentrate on the needs of the few (no matter how much we like them).22:51
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maromaderhi guys22:51
konttoriin any case the reordering makes the flat list very useful.22:51
mecekonttori, good point. Besides the community solutions work just fine.22:51
timeless_mbpStskeeps: so, Mer^2 is 'debian', not 'debian 64', right?22:51
asj_and an app already exist to put everything in folders if you want22:51
konttoriI almost never need to scroll the list anymore22:51
konttoribut now, night all!22:51
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Stskeepstimeless_mbp: debian x86 aye22:52
* mece waves22:52
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SpeedEvilA reorderable flat list would actually be nicest for me.22:52
meceSpeedEvil, I guess you're in luck then :)22:52
* RST38h actually prefers folders, one level of them22:52
RST38hcurrent scrollable plane feels like a minefield, too easy to accidentally start an app22:52
SpeedEvilI never find that.22:53
SpeedEvilI have problems sometimes missing apps22:53
SpeedEvilEspecially when my fingers are numb, or wearing gloves.22:53
pupniksame SpeedEvil22:55
RST38huse nails, nails work22:55
* RST38h had a few awkward moments with x6 yesterday: nails DID NOT work22:55
SpeedEvilNot so well in gloves.22:55
lcukRST38h, how is the x6?22:56
lcukdidnt know you had one22:56
RST38hlcuk: a slicker version of 5800, generally not worth the extra money22:56
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lcukfair enough22:56
* lcuk goes hacking22:56
RST38hlcuk: I played with one at nokia flagship store22:57
asj_it's capacitive atleast not?22:57
RST38hdo not have it22:57
RST38hasj: it is, but I do not see how resistive 5800 is worse22:57
* lcuk hid in nokia store last week22:57
lcuksome people dont22:57
lcukusing the side of my finger (as i do on n900)22:57
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lcukthe iphone is same responsiveness22:57
asj_RST38h: the hope would be the slightest touch would activate it22:57
lcukthe joggler has awful capacitive22:58
RST38hasj: minefield.22:58
asj_of course symbian isn't multitouch, but I'm torn on multitouch so I don't care22:58
meceWoo! got it.22:58
mece(just define empty bitmap, doh)22:59
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mecelcuk, it's pretty funny how you learn to use the screen. I had some trouble working my friends iphone the other day23:02
RST38hpr.1.1+ seems to have fixed bug #556623:02
povbotBug Video playback controls disappear when paused23:02
mecelcuk, somehow iphone want's a larger area of contact, while n900 wants a small area.23:03
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: .tar.gz instead of uploaded23:03
maromaderanybody knows how can I see album art in media player when it's in separate files, like 'album/cover.jpg'? I restarted tracker and cleaned it's database, but still there are no covers...23:03
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lcukmece, for whatever reason the side of my finger is where i have settled23:04
lcukand its skin enough to be iphone23:04
lcukand precise enough for normal use23:05
lcukwith n90023:05
mecelcuk, same for me, but my nail sticks out a little on my right hand index finger, so iphone doesn't work for me that way.23:05
lcukin liqbase the n900 pwns iphone for scrolling smoothness23:05
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timeless_mbpStskeeps: ok, what do i do w/ the .tar.gz? :)23:08
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Stskeepstimeless_mbp: installation guide has something for booting it on x8623:12
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timeless_mbpStskeeps: um, ok23:13
timeless_mbp scrub: scrub completed with 419 errors on Mon Mar  1 22:56:46 201023:13
Shapeshiftermece: "somehow"? it's a capacitive screen23:13
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timeless_mbpStskeeps: ?23:21
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* timeless_mbp tries
* timeless_mbp frowns23:22
timeless_mbpi don't want to convert my n900 into a brick23:23
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prontoyes you do!!23:24
prontobricks are so fun ^_^23:24
pupniki still think the summit giveway of n900s was stupid23:24
pupniklook how few recipints did anything useful23:25
felipecwhat's the week nr of PR 1.1.1?23:26
timeless_mbpfelipec: it's in bugzilla23:26
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timeless_mbpthe item above 'future' in 'target'23:27
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felipecah 02-823:27
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timeless_mbpthe 8 is not a week number :)23:29
felipectimeless_mbp: nope... how would you call 02-8?23:29
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timeless_mbpa sequence of four characters with no meaning? :)23:32
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javispedroCC = @CC@ \n HOSTCC = @CC@23:33
timeless_mbpfelipec: without a year and major version and probably a product, you have just that23:34
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hardakerwhat's the version reported by a 1.1.1 device?23:37
timeless_mbpit should be the whole string23:37
hardakerno, it's usually like 2.2009.51-1.00223:38
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hardakerwhich is my current one, but I'm pretty sure it's 1.123:38
hardakerand I need to flash it since the OTA failed a while back due to lack of disk space.23:38
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timeless_mbpok, the whole parenthetical23:38
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timeless_mbpi.e. 3.2010.02-823:38
hardakerAh, thanks.23:39
timeless_mbpand making me type that is rude23:39
hardakerdid it help the battery drain issue?23:39
timeless_mbpplease don't make me do that again. it hurts my hand23:39
hardakeryeah...  why the device can't report "1.1.1" is beyond me.23:39
timeless_mbpbecause that's not a remotely useful number?23:39
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timeless_mbp1.1.1 fwiw fixed a *very* limited set of bugs23:39
timeless_mbpthe logs for this channel point to the list of fixes23:39
hardakeryep.  though I have the desire to fix battery drain issues ;-)23:40
timeless_mbpif your bug isn't listed there, or doesn't specifically have the ™ i've indicated, then it isn't fixed23:40
timeless_mbpand you're wasting my time by not doing some homework23:40
timeless_mbp… fixed in that version ...23:40
hardakerWell, then let me stop wasting your time.  And you should stop wasting your own time answering questions you don't want to answer!23:40
* timeless_mbp goes back to yelling at someone else23:41
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maemodoes anyone know when will the next update be released?23:43
timeless_mbpit hasn't been determined23:43
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timeless_mbpand even if it were, nokia doesn't announce dates23:44
maemodo you know whether it solves the video calling prob. or not?23:44
timeless_mbp'the video calling prob.'?23:44
timeless_mbpdo you have a url?23:44
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timeless_mbpis 'prob.' 'probably'?23:44
djkrikkeis there a max charge after the n900 has been charged once? I charged it with the adapter, used it until it had 88% remaining, and it won't charge again23:45
ptlthe video calling problem23:45
maemoprob. = problem23:45
ptlthe sentence makes more sense this way23:45
timeless_mbp'the' implies they're precisely only one such whatever23:45
timeless_mbpif there isn't a bug, then you need to ensure there's a bug23:45
timeless_mbpif there's a bug, then you need to reference it23:45
timeless_mbpif there's a bug, you could even follow its progress!23:45
timeless_mbpand you wouldn't need to ask here....23:45
javispedrothe wrong part here is clearly considering that there's only a SINGLE bug!23:46
* javispedro hides23:46
maemoim asking because i don't know if thhere's a bug23:46
maemoor not23:46
timeless_mbpjavispedro: definitely one of the problems23:46
timeless_mbpsurely you could take the effort to go look?23:46
timeless_mbpyou found irc...23:46
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maemono bugs about it23:49
maemohowcan i open a bug23:49
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* timeless_mbp ponders23:50
timeless_mbphow precisely did you search for bugs?23:51
timeless_mbphere's what i did23:51
timeless_mbp1. i got a web browser23:51
maemoi followed the link you gave me23:51
timeless_mbp2. i used it to load
timeless_mbp3. i clicked advanced23:51
maemo wrote video call in the query23:51
maemoi looked at the results23:51
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timeless_mbp4. i clicked 'maemo official applications'23:51
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timeless_mbp5. i clicked 'chat & call & sms'23:51
maemoony two had these words23:51
maemobut not about next update23:51
timeless_mbp6. i entered 'video' in the summary field23:51
timeless_mbp7. i clicked 'search'23:52
timeless_mbpthat gave me bug 5218 among others23:52
povbotBug Voice/video call N900 to N810 doesn't work at all23:52
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timeless_mbpfwiw, following your steps, 5218 is in the list23:54
timeless_mbp(so are 199 others, but it's there)23:54
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maemoi followed what you said23:56
maemobut the resulted bugs doesn't talk about the video call as a defective problem in n9023:57
maemobut it talks about it as a shrtage between n900 & g. talk,  n900 & n81023:57
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maemoany help here?23:58
timeless_mbpmaemo: what do you mean 'defective problem'?23:59
timeless_mbp5218 and 6548 clearly indicate that video call isn't supported _yet_23:59

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