IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2010-02-12

Shapeshiftermak89k: for python I recommend the official tutorial ( and I don't know any pyside tuts as I learned using qt with pyqt, but I'm guessing pyside is rather similar. A nice pyqt tutorial is here:
mak89kShapeshifter: awesome thanks a lot!!! :)00:01
Shapeshifterand I'd say for Qt just stick to the C++ API docs, I'd say the Qt API is superb00:02
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ShapeshifterMh. No curl in the repos :(00:07
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port21Wondering if anyone can help me with a youtube problem on the n900 :)00:08
SpeedEvilport21: What problem?00:09
port21Basically, ive seen on youtube how people have access youtube and its displayed how it would display on a desktop, but i cant get it to come out of mobile view00:09
pupnikbtw, mytube works great on PC if you don't want to install flash00:09
SpeedEvilAlso. Woo! Angrybirds all 21 level 1 and 2  ***.00:09
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port21tfor some reason im stuck with the mobile view stylesheet00:09
port21SpeedEvil, you got any ideas?00:10
SpeedEvilport21: what do you mean 'mobile view stylesheet'00:10
SpeedEvilI'd try clearing any cookies?00:10
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jaemmmm... cookies00:11
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sandmanpoert21: could it have been with another browser? (i am a noob on n900)00:11
port21ive tried clearing cookies, ive tried it with the n900 built in browser and firefox on there too00:12
jaemport21, I"m not aware of a mobile page for Youtube.  Is there one, are are you just referring to CSS layout modifications?00:12
jaeme.g. removing sidebars, etc.00:12 i think if the url00:12
jaemand it redirects you to there?00:13
port21even if i click to change to destop00:13
jaemmaybe that's new00:13
jaemI've found some sites that don't know what to do with the Maemo 5 browser, because it reports itself as a desktop-class browser on a mobile device00:13
port21pretty lame if it is00:13
jaemsome sites get confused00:13
jaemcan you try with Tear?00:13
jaemTear lets you set the useragent string to anything you want, say, desktop Firefox00:14
jaemyeah, it's another browser which isn't stable for the N900 yet00:14
jaembut it works more or less, and it would allow you to check a few things00:14
port21nice. i'll check it out00:14
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jaemport21, do you know how to change useragent strings?00:15
port21cant say i do00:15
GeneralAntillesJaffa, you need to con some more sub-editors. :P00:15
jophishwhat conditions must be met in order for MyDocs to show up in any standard save dialog, or file manager. Or better yet, is there any way in which I can get /home/user to show up in them (apart from with a symbolic link on the external card.00:15
port21 it seems on the videos of people showing off their n900, theyre using the builtin browser to view youtube, and it appears in desktop mode, but mine keeps throwing me back to mobile view00:15
sandmanport21: if you write "about:config" in firefox you could change the useragent00:15
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simuladoes anyone know of a tutorial for packaging a simple Qt project into a .deb?  x86 to start with... working my way to arm00:16
jaemport21, it's in the Tear options.  Essentially, a useragent string is what the browser sends with web requests to identify itself and/or the device00:16
greenflythere's also a package in either testing or devel that lets you change useragent easily00:16
jaemthat's how sites know if you're using a dumbphone, an iPhone, or a real phone00:16
jaemor a desktop00:16
jaemgreenfly, I vaguely thought I'd heard of that00:16
port21yeah, i got ya, ive used it before. :)00:16
jaemthat might be worth trying first, port2100:16
jaemsimula, Debian packaging specifically, or Maemo's guidelines?00:17
jaemalso, which language is your app in?00:17
simulajaem, i was thinking generic debian to start with... c++00:17
port21jaem, what am i looking for in about:config?00:17
jaemsimula, well, there are some tutorials, and I'll try to find one, but you'll want to read up one the actual Guidelines, too00:18
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sandmanport21: write useragent00:18
jaemDebian has theirs, and Maemo has a slightly modified set of Guidelines on top of it, IIRC00:18
port21jaem, no results for useragent00:18
jaemsimula, as for ARM, if you're using Qt, and nothing weird, then it shouldn't be much work to cross-compile00:18
jaemport21, this is in microB, or whatever they call the stock browser these days?00:19
jaemsimula, give me a sec00:19
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simulajaem... i'm working my way through the "Debian New Maintainers' Guide", but it's relatively slow going00:19
jaemyeah, Debian packaging is quite pedantic, unfortunately00:19
jaembe glad you're not doing RPMs00:19
simulaheh :)00:19
jaemme, I like my Arch packages... nice and simple, no frills, and quick to write and test00:20
port21got 4 results from useragent, im assuming useragent.vendor is what im after?00:20
jaemport21, I'll check00:20
port21thats the only one that mentions maemo and N90000:20
lcukjaem, can say the same about debian once you understand it00:20
sandmanport21: strange.. when i write it shows "general.useragent.extra.firefox" and is set for "Firefox/3.6" on my Ubuntu machine00:21
jaemhmm, it looks like FF breaks the string down into pieces00:21
port21it sasandman, jaem told me to use the stock browser00:21
jaemlcuk, oh, probably, but I still would argue that's it's more pedantic00:21
sandmanport21: ahh ok00:21
jaemport21, well, you can try Tear or something else - I was just advising you try what you have first00:21
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port21i googled around and couldnt find anyone else having the same problem00:22
port21tis odd00:22
jaemcan you paste (or pastebin, if it's long) what shows up for a query of "useragent" in about:config00:22
jaemI'll doublecheck with a couple of browsers now00:22
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jaemsimula, looks decent00:22
jaemI think that's what I used originally00:22
jaemI'm not sure how up to date it is, though00:22
port21jaem, it says "Firefox/3.5 Maemo Browser 1.5.6 RX-51 N900"00:23
jaemport21, out of curiousity, are you logged into Google/Youtube when you're visiting this page?00:23
simulaok, thanks jaem, i appreciate the help00:23
lcuksimula, lots of people take an existing package thats similar and hack from there00:23
port21jame, ive tried both, clearing cookies between tries00:23
jaemlcuk, good point00:23
simulai'm considering that lcuk :)00:23
lcukits not hte best approach00:23
lcukbut along with your reading00:23
lcukit might help00:23
jaemlcuk, isn't there also a command to autogenerate a skeleton set of buildscripts?00:24
lcukyeah lol00:24
lcuki cant remember tho00:24, the Olympic torch went through my campus this morning... it made me late for my exam00:24
lcuki have a clicky button inside visual basic to do that for me00:24
simulajaem, i think it's dh_make00:24
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jaemand all it was was a guy running with a burning stick :P  The sponsors put on a better show00:24
jaemstill neat, though00:24
jaemsimula, sounds about right00:24
* lcuk ponders ogl liqbase00:25
jaemport21, hmm... worksforme in the stock browser00:26
port21thats so weird00:28
port21so you get the full desktop experience?00:28
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port21scroll to the bottom to mobile and click that, and you'll see howi see it.00:28
jaemport21, up00:28
jaemsure, give me a sec00:28
port21i click on a video, and it opens up my media player to play it fullscreen, thats nice, but i want in browser viewing00:28
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port21jaem, are you using firefox or the maemo browser that came with the phone?00:29
jaemthe stock browser00:29
jaemI'll try it with Tear momentarily00:29
jaemI don't have Firefox installld00:29
port21ive tried with the stock browser and firefox00:29
port21both same result00:29
port21i doubt tear would be any different?00:29
jaemprobably not, but I'm curious00:30
jaemthat really is odd00:30
jaemwhen did this start?00:30
port21since i got the phone 2 days ago00:30
sandmanmaybe if he delete everything but "Firefox/3.5"?00:31
jaemthat might be worth trying, actually00:31
SpeedEvilport21: odd. Does it do it over wifi and cell?00:31
jaemSpeedEvil, I was just going to ask that00:31
port21yeah. same result00:31
jaemgiven the site, I wouldn't be surprised if some carriers might think of messing with your requests00:31
SpeedEvilport21: is this a generic n900 - or is it bought theough an opeatror?00:31
jaemto save bandwidth00:31
jaemit would be evil, but it wouldn't surprise me00:32
port21bought through vodafone.00:32
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port21gah, i was afraid of that, lol00:32
SpeedEvilI would next try flashing it to the stock firmware00:32
* jaem nods00:32
SpeedEvilDoes it have any explicit branding / vodafone apps?00:32
jaemand if it suddenly magically works, then go raise heck about it00:32
jaemthat sort of thing isn't cool, if that's what they're doing00:33
Shapeshifterif I delete ICQ (or other IM protocol) contacts from the n900 contacts list, will they get deleted from the ICQ,... servers?00:33
port21rather frustrating cos i sign out of my youtube account and it says "this page does not have a mobile version, view desktop version?", then i tap it and it takes me back to the home page in mobile version.00:33
jaemseriously, though, if they're messing with your web requests, make noise about it00:33
port21no, its just a normal n900 just on contract00:33
SpeedEvilwhat does settings->about list as the softwareve reiosn?00:34
port21in the phones settings or browser settings?00:35
sandmancould it be a filter vodafone are using for mobile devices?00:35
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SpeedEvilsandman: he/she said it did it on mobile and fixed line00:35
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port21maemo 500:36
qolejaem, I'm considering going to see the torch come thru my campus tonight... Not worth it?00:36
jaemqole, unless there's more fanfare than there was up on the hill, I wouldn't say it's worth going anywhere00:36
SpeedEvilmy version is 51-1.203.200:36
jaemif you live nearby, then it might be worth it just to say you saw it00:36
jaembut as I said, it really comes down to a guy running past with a burning stick00:37
port21any way to force an update? thats how i updated my old t mobile G100:37
port21hell, i'll run pas your campus with a burning stick :D sounds like fun.00:37
SpeedEvil205.1 would seem to be more recent00:37
jaemwhen does it go through at YouBeeSee?00:37
jaemer... UBC00:37
port21oh, would also like to mention by the way that im in the UK. =P00:38
port21not sure how that might effect it, but its a possibility00:38
jaemport21, it'd be a long run00:38
jaemand yes, I know you're in the UK, thanks to the Wonders of Technology00:38
port21lol, that wasnt in reference to the torch, more my problem00:38
jaemwell, it would affect both matters00:39
port21yeah dude, wasnt sure if you'd seen.00:39
port21pay me the same amount as the olypic dude and i'll run across water to ya00:39
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jaemhmm, well, there was another carrier in the UK that was doing evil things to save bandwidth, so I don't suppose it's out of the question00:39
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jaemI forget who, but they got some bad press a year or so ago when they proxied all images through a server running high-level GIF compression00:40
jaemit was painful, from the pictures I saw00:40
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jaemand that was the basis of their ad campaign saying that they had the fastest Internet service on their phones00:40
SpeedEvilIs there any way to get a textual output of all package versions?00:41
SpeedEvilapt-cache somehow?00:41
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jaemSpeedEvil, you'd want dpkg-query, and yes probably00:41
jaemoh wait00:41
jaemall installed, or in the repos?00:41
SpeedEvilI meant on the phone00:41
jaeminstalled, then?00:42
SpeedEvilso we could compare port21's versions with the normal00:42
jaemyou'd have to use dpkg-query00:42
port21jaem, yeah, i think that was T mobile.00:42
jaemand I always forget the switches, because they were non-obvious00:42
jaemport21, I think I heard of something different, but it also sounds like something T-Mo would pull00:42
jaem...when they're not suing bloggers over colour schemes00:42
port21actally, it could be vodafone, theyve been going crazy with advertising lately about their internet speeds ;/00:43
SpeedEvilport21: dpkg-query -l >out00:43
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SpeedEvilthen pastebin or copy out somewhere public might be interesting00:43
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port212 secs, restarting phone.00:43
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jophishwhat conditions must be met in order for MyDocs to show up in any standard save dialog, or file manager. Or better yet, is there any way in which I can get /home/user to show up in them (apart from with a symbolic link on the external card.00:43
jaemSpeedEvil, do the carriers have their own repos for custom things, then, or does Nokia host them?00:43
jaemor do they just not update things...00:43
SpeedEviljaem: I have no idea.00:43
SpeedEviljaem: The version on port21s phone is later than on mine00:44
SpeedEvilor apparantly00:44
jaemhmm... I'm wondering because it might affect the versioning00:44
SpeedEvilyeah - true00:44
jaemSpeedEvil, I think that's a version suffix, similar to n.n.n-xmaemoy00:44
SpeedEvilsounds not implausible00:44
port21SpeedEvil, it might, in that case, be carrier specific firmware00:44
jaemthe last part probably isn't set by Nokia, at least not in the same sense00:44
jaemport21, that's my guess00:45
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jaemthe suffix doesn't fit with Nokia's usual versioning scheme, as far as I've seen00:45
jaemI'm going to grab some lunch, but I'll be around - poke me if you figure out anything, please00:46
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jon1012ui-wise, on maemo, what is the best way to represent tabs ?00:46
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jaemjon1012, hmm... it's not a common UI element00:46
jaemdid you check the HIG?00:46
jon1012and I don't find anything like that00:47
jaemdid it disallow them, or just not mention them?00:47
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wazdwho wants to test an iTheme for maemo 5? :P00:47
jon1012just not mention and somehow tell its discouraged00:47
jon1012wazd: itheme ?00:47
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jaemwazd, I would, but I'd have to burn my phone afterward :P00:47
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jon1012my problem : user can do a search for places (bars/restaurants) in an area... and I want to let the user switch betwen map and listing views00:48
wazdjaem: don't forget to take a shower :D00:48
jaemjon1012, would the normal "stacked window" approach be unsuitable?00:48
jaemas in the mail client00:48
jon1012jaem: yeah :(00:48
jon1012jaem: as there is search, then place view00:48
wazdjaem: I actually can't take a screenshots, as you remember, so I ask to test somebody in the crowd :D00:48
jon1012but search can be either map or listing00:48
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wazdjon1012: iPhone theme for maemo5 :)00:48
jaemwazd, fire me a linnk, and I'll see what I can do00:48
jon1012wazd: lol why not00:49
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jon1012wazd: could be fun to test00:49
jaemjon1012, is this in Qt or GTK?00:49
port21Hmm. this is odd. im gonna go do a bit of googling. i'll be back soon :)00:49
port21thanks for your help so far guys00:49
jaemhmm... okay, I'm not familiar with GTK, so I can't suggest specific widgets00:49
jaemport21, no problem - good luck00:50
jon1012let me show screenshots of what I mean00:50
wazdjaem: I hope the link will be ready in like 30 minutes00:50
jaemjon1012, sure, that would be good00:50
port21chers mate00:50
jon1012wazd: when you have I would test too00:50
jaemwazd, okay - I may be gone at that point, and my scrollback isn't set up properly, so PM me with it just in case, please00:50
wazdjon1012: good00:50
wazdjaem: sure00:50
jon1012this is the listing search result :
jon1012this is the map search result :
jon1012both views can lead once a place has been selected to this stackable view :
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jon1012(I tried to keep the ui look as native as possible)00:52
jaemright... I see your issue00:53
jaemare you designing this for Maemo, or porting?00:53
jon1012designing for maemo00:53
jon1012(the main website is done in python and I have a connector class for distant mvc thourgh json already in python too)00:53
jon1012(so making this in pygtk isn't that hard :))00:53
jaemTabs are ugly and not phone-ish, to be sure.00:54
jaemFailing any HIG mentions, you could always try something tabbish00:54
jaemsuch as having a bar on the left side of the map that slides the other page across when clicked00:55
jaemand vice-versa00:55
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jaemI've seen UI's like that, and I think it would fit better00:55
jaembut for Maemo, I'm not sure00:55
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jaemI mean, it would probably be usable, and look better than normal tabs, but it isn't really something that I've seen on Maemo yet00:55
jaemwazd, any opinions?00:55
jacekowskii'm just wondering00:56
jaemjon1012, do you know what I mean?00:56
jacekowskiif tomtom is running linux on ARM00:56
jon1012jaem: not really00:56
jacekowskihow complicated it would be to run it on n90000:56
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jaemjon1012, you know those old mini tabbed binders that quick reference guides for computers and such came in?00:57
jaemactually, never mind with that00:57
jaemone sec00:57
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jaemI'm not sure where I've seen it, but they sometimes will put a vertical bar on the side of a content pane that represents another "page", or some such00:58
jaemand you click it, and that page comes to the top, slides across, flips, or whatever00:58
jon1012btw, I'll probably release a big chunk of that app (minus the specific connector for my website network) as open source00:58
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jaemand the other view minimizes to a bar on the opposite side00:59
jaemjon1012, yay, thanks!00:59
wazdshots look clean :)00:59
jaemyeah, you've done a good job, from what I can see00:59
jaemwazd, do you understand what I'm trying to express?00:59
jaemor am I just crazy?00:59
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GeneralAntillesfrals, ping?01:00
wazdjaem: It's 2 AM here, don't expect much :D01:00
fralsGeneralAntilles: pong01:00
jaemwazd, ha, sure01:00
jon1012(btw, is python with qt enoguh stable to use today on n900 apps ?)01:01
jon1012(or is it better to stick with gtk ?)01:01
jaemjon1012, I'm not sure.  Qt 4.6 technically isn't stable yet, but it should be soon that I wouldn't rule it out01:01
jaemas for the Python bindings, I have no idea01:02
jaemsoon enough*01:02
jaemword is that it will be "supported" in the next PR version01:02
jaembut I don't know for sure01:02
jon1012hehe ok01:02
SpeedEvil,1000001991,40022669,00.htm - interesting. (chip and pin broken)01:02
jon1012I'll stick to gtk for now, I know gtk a lot, so I guess it's better until maemo 6 :)01:02
jefferaithis might be of interest to people here:
luke-jrgtk = fail01:02
jon1012gtk = good :) but won't be the default in the future, that's why I start to look at qt :(01:03
jaemjon1012, well, no, Qt is in late beta now01:03
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jaemthe N900 will be an officially supported platform quite soon (they said Q1 sometime originally), and is already quite usable01:03
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jaemwe've been using it for a research project at my university since October01:04
simulai'm so excited about qt-creator / madde integration and 4.6 on the phone :)01:04
jon1012so, anybody has an idea of gtk widget for my selector problem ? :)01:05
jefferaisimula: apparently there's still some cmake problem, narf01:05
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simulahehe :)  hopefully it gets fixed soon jefferai01:06
jon1012(well, selector/tab/ etc)01:06
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nomisjon1012: I missed the original question, what is the problem?01:06
jon1012I have a search result view, that can be of two types, either result list or map01:07
jon1012and when you select a place on one of those views, it opens a stackablewindow with the place you selected01:07
jon1012thing is, is there an equivalent for tab to switch between the view types01:07
jon1012(23:51:39) jon1012: this is the listing search result :
jon1012(23:51:39) jon1012: this is the map search result :
jon1012(23:51:39) jon1012: both views can lead once a place has been selected to this stackable view :
simulajeffarai... does it sound like cmake bugs are the only thing holding back qt-creator madde integration?  if so, that's great!01:08
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jefferaiwell, no01:09
jefferaiqmake certainly works with qt-creator/madde01:09
jefferaibut if you're like me, and working on porting bits of KDE programs over01:09
jefferaiyou want cmake01:09
nomisjon1012: you actually could use a notebook and place the tabs on the side.01:09
jon1012nomis: yeah, but it's not recommended by HIG01:10
Shapeshiftermhh, no lftp in the repos.01:10
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nomisjon1012: Ok, I am not an expert on the HIG  :)01:10
jaemjefferai, what are you porting now?01:11
jaemI thought I recognized your nick :)01:11
jefferaijaem: I'm going to hold off on saying anything yet01:11
Shapeshiftermhh, I don't see anything providing "ftp" either. What package contains a simple small cli (scriptable) ftp client?01:11
jefferaiuntil I figure out how much of it is at all possible01:11
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jaemjefferai, ah, fair enough01:11
jaemwas it you that did the initial KOffice, etc. on the N810, or something else?01:12
jaemI can't remember01:12
jefferaiI didn't have a n81001:12
simulaif i have a dependency in a .deb package for qt 4.6 or greater and 4.6 doesn't exist in any repo, how do i handle that?  should i put those libs into my deb?01:12
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luke-jrsimula: you're aware you can't just use a .deb from one OS and install it in a different OS?01:13
simulaluke-jr... what OS specific things besides arch do i have to worry about luke-jr?01:14
luke-jrsimula: ABIs, library versions, etc01:16
luke-jrfor embedded architectures like ARM, also stuff like optimizations01:16
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jaemyay! X Bailed for no apparent reason01:17
simulaso luke-jr, i was expecting to handle the library version with Depends: qt (>= 4.6), but i hadn't thought of the ABI being different because of what compiler it was compiled with01:18
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luke-jr#GNU is terrible01:20
tripzeroyou are terrible01:20
jaemluke-jr, is that anything GNU?01:20
luke-jrjaem: haha01:21
luke-jrseriously though, the oper there has a huge bug in his logic program01:21
Shapeshifterdoes someone know how to silence ncftpput?01:21
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Shapeshifterthere's no quiet switch or anything01:21
tripzerowell, if i go in there trying to explain to them why the bsd license is more free, i'd come to the conclusion that its terrible too01:21
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luke-jrtripzero: nah01:22
luke-jrtripzero: I was just pointing out that FSF approved a non-free license.01:22
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jaemluke-jr, that's impossible01:23
simulawhat license?01:23
gouverneurno news I had to day.. just recognized that EU Swift negotiations are canceld!01:23
luke-jr"SIL Open Font License 1.1"01:23
jaemif Stallman's cool with it, then it is Free.  Or are you saying you're more rabid than rms? ;)01:23
luke-jrjaem: Stallman has no authority01:24
gouverneurno US MI will be granted access directly01:24
jaemluke-jr, it was a jest01:24
luke-jrhe's just a figurehead01:24
luke-jrSIL forbids selling01:24
tripzeroi thought he was a harry monkey01:24
jaemluke-jr, I know, I wasn't actually wanting to get into it01:24
jaemtripzero, naw01:24
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jaemtripzero, actually never mind... his Google Images ranking for "unix beard" has climbed back up01:25's based esr now01:25
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redso whats hot at maemo? :)01:25
redbeeen busy for a while so gotta catch up01:25
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jon1012jaem: I'll try to use visually grouped toggle buttons in the search bar at bottom...01:26
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jon1012One saying "List" and the other saying "Map"01:26
jaemjon1012, that might work01:26
jon1012I'll try to see how it is visually...01:26
jaemif you do a mock-up or screenie, I wouldn't mind seeing it01:26
jon1012I'll add it right now and do a screenie01:26
jaemred, didn't you hear?  The new N100000 has come out01:27
jaemeverything else is obselete01:27
luke-jrI got the N100000 with 4 GB RAM :)01:27
jaem...and yes, that was an arbitrary amount of key-mashed trailing 0's01:27
jaemhmm... Google ads for the query "unix beard"01:28
jaemdo I click on the HP-UX one, or the Braun Shaver one01:28
jaemdecisions, decisions01:28
jaem"Which path will YOU choose"01:28
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Shapeshifterthe desktop command execution widget is one of the best things that happened to my desktop.01:33
tripzeroheh, wrong window.  m == an alias for make -j5 :P01:33
jaemsudo passwd01:33
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wazdjaem: package is baking now01:34
wazdjaem: it's now a weird combination of Marina and an iPhone, but some elements should look fine :)01:35
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* jaem smells the oven01:35
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wazdanyway, converting process is much faster than creating :)01:36
jon1012visually grouped toggle buttons aren't implemented in defaulttheme01:36
jon1012(both buttons have all rounder corners)01:37
jon1012(giving no clue they are a one-or-other chooser)01:37
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jon1012this is what the widget ui spec says: "Implemented with the GtkToggleButton class using hildon_gtk_toggle_button_new(). Visually grouped toggle buttons are packed inside a GtkHBox with homogeneous set to TRUE and spacing set to 0."01:37
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ShadowJKI used Ovi Maps for turn by turn navigation today01:52
ShadowJKunfortunately it was on my symbian phone :-(01:52
wazdShadowJK: and survived? :D01:52
* ShadowJK had to drive extra to go get it01:52
ShadowJKwazd, barely01:53
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ShadowJKIt's pretty the opposite of tomtom01:53
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ShadowJKtomtom is highly allergic to small roads.. the kinds that were covered by 60cm snow today01:53
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ShadowJKand ovi seems to love those01:53
* ShadowJK just drove until it suggested a big road01:53
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jacekowskithat depends on settings01:55
wazdShadowJK: maybe you've used "ped. mode"?01:55
Shapeshifterdoes someone know which package contains less?01:55
Shapeshifterthe app, "less".01:55
jaemShadowJK, if it's allergic to small roads, see if the symptoms improve while driving off of downed bridges, or unbuilt freeways01:55
jaemI hear that works01:55
N900evilapt get install less01:56
jaemN900evil, that's called remove01:56
ShadowJKless is in sdk tools repo01:56
jaemapt-get install more!01:56
ShapeshifterN900evil: thanks. apt-cache search's behavior of listing everything even remotely related to what you search for is still confusing me01:56
ShadowJKwazd, jacekowski: it wasn't in pedestrian mode.. it even had "fastest", not "shortest" selected..01:56
N900eviloh - it's in the tools repo01:56
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b-man17vjoin #xceleo02:01
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jon1012this is what it does02:02
jon1012not that good :(02:02
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offender_feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces feces02:06
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GeneralAntillesWhat lame spam.02:07
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redeemanbut far less annoying than 10 bots pasting till they timeout02:07
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wazdand everyone02:09
jaemthanks, wazd02:10
jaemI'll take a look, but I have to run to a meeting, so I'll catch you later02:10
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wazdjaem: sure, thanks02:10
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jon1012wooho I've found a good way ! using hildon.CheckButton... very poorly documented but does the job :)02:20
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wazdjon1012: ^ :)02:21
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jon1012someone knows if there is a glade plugin for hildon widgets ?02:26
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GeneralAntilleslol . . . apologist salary02:31
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* SpeedEvil finds bonnie in repo02:35
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* SpeedEvil ponders responses to bugs about not supporting multiple screen-sizes.02:53
* SpeedEvil is exporting stuff to his laptop.02:53
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ShadowJKI just noticed03:06
ShadowJKmy N900 has newer kernel than my workstation03:06
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SpeedEvilRunning bonnie and mplayer to send the video camera image to my laptop over wifi seems to make something rather upset.03:07
SpeedEvil[48805.234405] omap-iommu omap-iommu.1: iommu_fault_handler: da:0000c000 pgd:cfe8c000 *pgd:8fea8001 pte:cfea8030 *pte:0000000003:08
SpeedEvil[48805.266967] omap-iommu omap-iommu.1: omap2_iommu_fault_isr:  da:0000c000 translation fault03:08
SpeedEvilspamming logs03:08
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Mouseyholy kernel unhappinesses, batman03:10
* Mousey suspects contention03:10
SpeedEvilIt is a slightly unusual workload for a mobile phone.03:10
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Mouseyi consider it a computer.. shaped like a phone03:10
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SpeedEvilIt may have been running nokia maps and displaying it on my laptop which did it though.03:11
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* SpeedEvil wonders why text rendering on fbreader is a couple of orders of magnitude slower when rotated03:21
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AethaerynHow is Maemo pronounced? "May-mo"?03:38
WZhangma-emo thats how i do it03:39
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GeneralAntillesAethaeryn, my-eh-mo more or less.03:42
GeneralAntillesmay-mo is mostly "wrong" (assuming pronouncing a made up word can really be considered correct or incorrect)03:42
GeneralAntillesSpanish - Maria gets you a pretty close approximation03:44
GeneralAntillesFinnish - Sanna is good, too.03:44
SpeedEvilTake the linux approach03:44
GeneralAntilles(maybe better)03:44
SpeedEvilhow did the originator pronounce it.03:45
AethaerynGeneralAntilles: I guess it's the English-speaking mentality... We tend to try to make one sound out of multiple vowels03:45
Aethaerynthis words like "aisle"03:45
AethaerynNot "a-isle"03:45
AethaerynGeneralAntilles: Though I don't think anyone knows how to pronounce Maemo... was reading Engadget comments and everyone had a different pronunciation03:46
GeneralAntillesAethaeryn, it was generated by pwgen.03:46
GeneralAntillesSo there, arguably, isn't a "correct" pronunciation.03:46
GeneralAntillesHowever the guy who generated it is Spanish and Nokia is Finnish03:46
GeneralAntillesand Spanish and Finnish generally agree on the pronunciation03:47
GeneralAntillesSo, my-eh-mo03:47
GeneralAntilles(very weak middle sylable)03:47
jf-pronounced ma-e-mo03:48
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AethaerynGeneralAntilles: I guess I wasn't too far off, then.03:54
AethaerynMy-eh-mo is May-mo if you put the two vowels together like I assumed03:55
GeneralAntillesNot. :P03:55
GeneralAntillesmay != my03:56
AethaerynSay My-eh fast enough... and you get something kinda like May03:56
GeneralAntillesYeah, but may-mo isn't really right. :P03:56
ShadowJKmy idea: "ma" as in your mom, e as in "eh?", "mo" again as in your mom03:58
ShadowJKwith a nick like 'kamui' I'd think pronuncing arbitrary sequences of syllables would be easy ;-)04:00
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Kamuiwell that would depend on the language from wihich the name is based wouldnt it ShadowJK04:01
ShadowJKyeah :)04:01
ShadowJKIf we assume finns made the name... the finnish language is spelled phonetically with latin alphabet04:02
Kamuibut i hear a lot of ka-moo-eee04:02
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AethaerynKamui: That's dangerously close to pronouncing it as "My-emo"04:03
Kamuilol my emo04:04
Kamuimae mo04:04
Kamuiis what i say04:04
Kamuiand i stand by it04:04
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Kamuioff topic. i need a better pdf reader or a comic reader that does pdf format04:06
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Kamuipdf reader wont quite do fullscreen zoom04:06
matthew-isnt it mimo ?04:06
Kamuiand while xournal works too its slow and annotates04:07
GeneralAntillesmatthew-, er, no?04:07
GeneralAntillesmy-eh-mo is approximately the real pronunciation.04:07
matthew-well it would make sense ;-)04:07
GeneralAntillesFinnish - Sanna04:07
GeneralAntillesType "Maemo" into the box.04:07
Kamuimeamo would make sense04:07
matthew-i know finnish04:07
Kamuii dont know finnish04:07
Kamuibut it dont work in engrish04:08
gouverneurdamn this charging bug drives me mad04:09
Kamuiae in english would be a hard A sound04:09
Kamuinow that its settled04:09
SpeedEvilKamui: it's annoying, yes04:09
crashanddieMy EMO04:10
Kamuipdf reader with full screen zoom?04:10
SpeedEvilKamui: submit a bug04:10
SpeedEvilKamui: that - and you can't do 180.1% zoom04:10
SpeedEvil(for example04:10
crashanddien900 is optimized for MySpace, and it runs My-Emo software, wooooohooooooooo04:10
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Kamuipr1.1 really fixed the touchscreen keyboard.  i can thumb it really much faster than i could with 1.004:16
SpeedEvilI haven't noticed any differemce, but I don't use it that much. What are the changes?04:17
GeneralAntillesSpeedEvil, they disabled gestures04:18
GeneralAntillesIn favor of iPhone-like functionality.04:18
GeneralAntillesMy speed dropped by about 30%04:18
GeneralAntillesI hate it.04:18
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Kamuilol i dont use gestures04:20
Kamuii just mean its more accurate04:20
Kamuibefore speed tapping would spell out random shit04:21
Kamuibut now its much much better04:21
GeneralAntillesBecause you didn't lift your other thumb fast enough.04:21
GeneralAntillesIt aint multitouch.04:21
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Kamuinot the case at all04:21
konfooanyone know if the jquery touch devs are at least looking at the n900 for a device profile?04:21
Kamuibut maybe a video demo is in order04:21
GeneralAntillesKamui, if you're getting gibberish it is.04:21
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GeneralAntillesPR1.1 uses the final position of the tap to select the character, not the initial one.04:22
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KamuiGeneralAntilles: it wasnt gibberish as much as i was hitting the wrong letters04:22
GeneralAntillesPR1.0 you could tap a character and swipe left/right/up/down to delete and shift04:22
Kamuieven though i wasnt04:22
Kamuirecalibrating didnt help04:22
GeneralAntillesYes, because your first thumb was still on the screen.04:23
GeneralAntillesMeaning you'd end up with at pouch point between the two actual touch points.04:23
Kamuiif i was getting middle keys i would buy that04:23
Kamuihitting any key almost always resulted in the key to the right and down04:23
Kamuimaybe i just adjusted the way i use it04:24
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Kamuidoesnt really matter now, it works better for me, a lot better04:24
Kamuikey deadzones might have been adjusted, who knows04:24
Kamuitouchscreen driver could have been improved04:25
Kamuimaybe i was typing too fast04:25
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ShadowJKthat voice synth is good04:29
ShadowJKbtw, they also fixed tx calibration in pr1.1 I think04:29
ShadowJKit was definitely broken before04:29
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Kamuii was right04:52
Kamuii rock04:53
Kamuiespeak v synth?04:53
Kamuicause its awesome04:53
Kamuieven if its brittish04:53
Kamuii want to write a python script for xchat to use that04:53
Kamuihavent gotten around to trying to get the python module on the n90004:54
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Kamuihas to be compiled iirc04:54
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crashanddieKamui: please don't use return as a punctuation sign04:55
crashanddieN900evil: because we are intelligent beings and we should be able with a sentence longer than 3 words?04:56
ShadowJKNah I meant the one that GeneralAntilles pasted... the finnish synth is awesome04:56
crashanddies/ble /ble to cope /04:56
infobotcrashanddie meant: N900evil: because we are intelligent beings and we should be able to cope with a sentence longer than 3 words?04:56
Kamuiill write long paragraphs from now on sorry. just guess i got carried away talking tomyself and as usual someone got mad. man i screwed up. but you have to admit, espeak is cool, i love it, works quite well on the n900 but not on my desktop. i wonder why...04:57
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crashanddiedrama queen much?04:57
zerojayQuestion... if I placed a grid over the N900 screen and wanted to be able to accurately choose any by the touch of a finger.. what would you say should be the maximum size of each square in the grid?04:57
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Kamuimoderately bored, i shant flood anymore04:58
crashanddiefor using "shan't"04:58
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zerojaycrashanddie: Nice response to silvermountain, btw. lol04:59
crashanddiezerojay: 6 in width, 4 in height04:59
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zerojaycrashanddie: 6x4 pixels each square?05:00
crashanddie6 squares by 4 squares total05:00
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zerojayYeah, that's definitely not going to work when I need at least 20x20.05:00
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crashanddiezerojay: depends what you're trying to do05:00
zerojayCreating a game based on a grid.05:00
crashanddiezerojay: just try it05:01
zerojayYeah, I think I will.05:01
crashanddiezerojay: show an image on screen, draw the grid dynamically, and highlight the squares you tap05:01
crashanddieand just look up to which point you can select a specific point in the image accurately05:02
zerojayYeah, I think I'm going to have to do a series of tests at different sizes to see how it works.05:02
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GeneralAntillescrashanddie, silvermountain is such a prick.05:05
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GeneralAntillescrashanddie, good show. :P05:06
SpeedEvilA skilled or an idiotic gloved finger05:07
* N900evil goes to watch southpark episode on finger glove.05:08
acidjazzfinger glove?05:09
ShadowJKis "shan't" timeless-certified use of english?..05:10
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DocScrutinizercrashanddie: try to hit the crosshairs and see which radius the dots are05:17
DocScrutinizerthen calculate (aka draw) the outer square05:17
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crashanddieShadowJK: timeless isn't a good writer05:20
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crashanddieShadowJK: he speaks american, hence his English is already flawed to begin with05:20
crashanddieShadowJK: he asked me to tag my blog as being "en-GB"05:20
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lucentmultiplayer "Hearts" card game for N900?05:21
crashanddielol... silvermountain is sending hatemail in PM05:22
lucentoi.  people do odd things05:23
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lucentbtw fellow N900 owners, how difficult is it to set up a network connection over Bluetooth between N900 and Ubuntu laptop?05:25
Lumpio-Doesn't you laptop have wifi?05:25
lucentI want to do windows filesharing and see my shares on the laptop, but the laptop wifi must not be bothered05:25
lucentLumpio-: don't want to muck about with wifi settings05:25
lucentDocScrutinizer: have you used PAN for a network link with Ubuntu?  I tried for 10 minutes to research and do this, the result was not very progressive05:26
lucentlooking for some advice now05:26
lucentoh hm, it's not in a package repo05:27
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crashanddiezerojay: some other mod deleted my response to silvermountain :(05:29
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Proteousyou must get him back05:34
DocScrutinizerlucent: aah this one even better:
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lucentDocScrutinizer: bless your heart, thank you for the help05:35
lucentI'm confused, where is my Documents folder on the N900 filesystm05:38
lucentam looking in /home/user/MyDocs it is not there apparently05:38's hidden05:38
Lumpio-Infact all the built-in directories are hidden for some bizarre reason05:38
kamuistandard linux05:38
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kamuiall .files/directories are hidden from a standard listing05:39
kamuitry ls -a to see them05:39
lucentoh huh05:39
lucentgot you there, I understand now05:39
Lumpio-Why are they hidden in the first place05:39
lucentthough it confuses me greatly - know why this is?05:39
kamuiagain, standard linux convention05:39
kamui.files tend to be config files05:39
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kamuistuff you dont' necessarily want/need to see05:39
kamuiand stuff you dont' want to accidentally fuck up in mass file operations05:40
kamuiso they are implicitly ignored in all mass operations05:40
kamuieasy to get used to.05:40
kamuiwhat doesn't make sense though05:40
kamuiis that it sits on a fat32 partition05:40
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Lumpio-But .documents are something I definitely would like to see05:41
Lumpio-Hiding them makes no sense IMO05:41
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kamuiwhy they hid THOSE directories is a myster05:41
lucentnaming them dot-something on fat32 is nonsense05:41
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, lol. . . .05:41
kamuiim just telling you why its hidden05:41
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, PLEASE ban him.05:42
kamuinot WHY they hid them05:42
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GeneralAntillescrashanddie, he's an idiotic little troll.05:42
Lumpio-I know how Linux works ¬_¬05:42
lucentit's interesting that Linux is a viable kernel for mobile computing devices vs. say FreeBSD or something05:43
lucent(not related to previous remarks)05:43
Proteousdont' start that troll topic :P05:43
kamuiwho's trolling05:43
lucentI just heard this wonderful FLOSS weekly interview, Randal Schwartz interviewed self-proclaimed "FreeBSD Girl"05:43
Proteousno one, move along :P05:43
kamuitrollin' for gussy05:43
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lucentokay I'll get to the point, I'm impressed with the organic / chaotic way that Linux development happens05:44
lucentit's just fascinating.05:44
Proteouskamui, emoticons are signposts for sarcasm05:44
lucenthey guys, does it matter which user I effectively am when I do 'gconftool-2' ?05:46
lucentcan I be root is that any different outcome than just being user?05:46
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Proteousyou can try it and find out05:48
Proteouslet us know05:48
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ShadowJKThe reason they're hidden is that the File Manager translates them05:49
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DocScrutinizeryeah, as some product managers at Nokia thought it's *less* confusing to name /home/user/MyDocs "N900" in fileselector of gui apps. And /home/user/MyDocs/.documents "Documentos" or whatever matches your LOCALE05:51
GeneralAntilleskamui, silvermountain. He's an old troll.05:52
Proteousmanagers are brilliant05:52
Proteouseveryone should be working under at least 3 managers for the benefit fo all05:53
lucentthat's not a bad idea, at least now that I've heard it explained in context05:53
DocScrutinizereven worse is the fact you got no (sane) means to access *any* files outside MyDocs or uSD card05:53
DocScrutinizerin GUI selector05:54
ShadowJKI don't have an issue with the restricted file manager really05:54
SpeedEvilme neither05:54
lucentDocScrutinizer: that bit me hard when I tried to use a Qt app "KeePassX"05:54
ShadowJKAtleast you don't have to pay extra to get access to files outside the user friendly zone05:54
SpeedEvilbut making the names confusing is broken05:54
lucentDocScrutinizer: I had to launch it from commandline05:54
DocScrutinizerShadowJK: actually you have. When you're a app developer that has to write his own fileselector to allow user to "send arbitrary files over BT" (petrovich) for example05:56
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ShadowJKNo I mean I as a user don't have to pay 25euro for some "PowerUser filemanager" crapware05:57
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crashanddieGeneralAntilles: I wish06:02
crashanddieGeneralAntilles: sadly, I'm not a fully trusted mod06:02
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, :eyeroll:06:02
crashanddieGeneralAntilles: I'd get my rights removed right away if I tried anything of the sorts06:03
crashanddieGeneralAntilles: plus, you only become a supermod when your each 500 posts, bla bla bla06:03
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GeneralAntillescrashanddie, where is that written down?06:03
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, get elected for Council and bring the place down. :P06:03
crashanddieGeneralAntilles: in a PM from Reggie?06:03
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GeneralAntillesThat should be documented on the wiki. . .06:03
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lucentwell I've veered off-topic, stumped how to share internet connection over bluetooth from Ubuntu06:11
lucentrunning Ubuntu Karmic here in case one of you fine peoples knows the answer and pity me a clue how to do it :)06:12
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Tobacan the diablo apt sources be added to the n900 without causing problems?06:59
Proteousdoubt it07:02
crashanddieToba: no07:06
crashanddieToba: a few apps might run07:07
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Tobajust wondering if i could get pysqlite running without having to try too hard07:10
Tobabut i don't want to mess up my n900 in the pursuit of lazyness07:11
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|Ris it normal to have the n900 ring super loudly while on silent profile? and not with the selected ringtone for that matter? (even in non-silent actually)07:21
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|RI'm sure i've installed something stupid but with 110+ shortcuts, it's going to be hard to figure out ...  :P07:21
gouverneur|R: doing what while that?07:21
gouverneurlisten to music?07:21
MiXu-I've never seen it do that07:22
|Rthe phone is just there, charged, on the charger.07:22
|Rwhen i get called over SIP at home, (it's on wifi connecter to asterisk) it goes super loudly into a generic ring07:22
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gouverneurno not normal07:23
|Ranyway, SIP is borked until PR1.2 (#6936).. i may flash when that comes out, i'll test it tomorrow and see, i'd wake up people at this hour if i tested hehe  :/07:24
DocScrutinizerbug 693607:25
povbot`Bug Caller voice gets minced after some time when taking call via SIP07:25
|Rfacebook gets XMPP support, this is going to be a mess... when will they add email?07:27
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MiXu-|R: I don't care if it'll be a mess. It's a killer feature \o/07:33
MiXu-I'll be able to be logged in to facebook 24/7 ;)07:34
|Rand i'll be able to never login to it on the web actually haha ;)07:35
konfoois it just me or is the n900 camera a total pile07:35
MiXu-What's wrong?07:35
|R(I only have a stalker account, everything at off, and you still can't hide fan of !)07:35
konfoofocus is always @ infinity07:36
konfooeven after doing a set on it07:36
MiXu-Haven't seen that problem.07:36
konfoo like that07:37
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GeneralAntilleskonfoo, you realize the shutter has a half-step, right?07:37
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GeneralAntillesThen you're either doing it wrong or there's something wrong with your device.07:37
konfooits doing it on two devices07:38
konfooit seems to randomly set itself to infinity07:38
konfoois the camera using a center point for focus or a matrix?07:38
GeneralAntillesWell, we know it works for some people. ;)
GeneralAntillesThus the bracket. . . .07:39
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konfoowell, my dslrs have brackets as well07:39
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konfoobut you can still set them to matrix07:39
GeneralAntillesSure, but the N900 isn't a DSLR. :)07:39
konfoodid i say it was07:39
MiXu-wtf just happened07:39
MiXu-My N900 got completely stuck.07:40
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crashanddiekonfoo: take a chill pill07:41
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crashanddiekonfoo: the camera will certainly get better -- technically speaking we have free access to it07:42
derfDo we?07:42
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derfCan we fix the horrible "noise reduction" it does?07:43
MiXu-Bah. Had to reboot.07:44
villagernoise reduction? what noise reduction?07:44
MiXu-All (cheap) digital cameras do noise reduction07:44
villagerI don't see noise-free images from my n90007:45
crashanddieguys, we're talking about a seriously small sensor07:45
MiXu-villager: It doesn't mean it would be noise free.07:45
crashanddieso as soon as we go over ISO200, you're going to have huge amounts of noise07:45
|Ranyone finished hex-a-hop? :P07:45
crashanddiewe need to be able to set the shutter speed, and lower the ISO07:46
* ShadowJK always wondered if you could make a fake-longshutterspeed by taking several pictures and adding them together07:46
crashanddieShadowJK: nha, but you can do HDR07:46
angasuleany word on a possible N910? :-)07:46
MiXu-But you can change the iso in the stock camera already?07:46
crashanddieMiXu-: yeah, think so07:47
ShadowJKdoesn't multiple exposures add up to a long exposure :-/07:47
MiXu-angasule: Nokia has promised the next Maemo device in 2010.07:47
derfI'm not complaining that the sensor has noise. I know the sensor has noise.07:47
derfBut when you look at stuff like this:
angasuleMiXu-: cool, thanks for the info :-D07:47
angasuleMiXu-: N900 + magnetometer would be neat07:47
derfThat's not sensor noise. That's some horrible attempt to clean up the noise gone horribly awry.07:48
|Rbiggest fail...07:48
MiXu-derf: eww07:48
GeneralAntillesderf, note that the noise reduction has been tweaked since September. :)07:48
derfGeneralAntilles: Sure, that's just a URL I had handy.07:48
derfMy images still look like that, though.07:48
crashanddieShadowJK: no, with proper HDR software you get very balanced pictures, nothing is overexposed07:48
ShadowJKcrashanddie, I meant it from the point of  view of two 100ms exposures adding up like a single 200ms exposure ;)07:49
ShadowJKbut it probably adds noise07:49
villagercrashanddie: shutter speed, would that be the exposure setting?07:49
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GeneralAntillesThat example sucks.07:53
GeneralAntillesThey'd've been better off just taking real pictures.07:53
tigertgpodder cannot stream episodes anymore07:56
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GeneralAntillesThe comments on LWN about the security talk are funny.07:57
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tigertmediaplayer says "cannot find mediafile"07:57
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* RST38h moos at all the presentr07:58
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* RST38h managed to screw up the media player yesterday BTW07:58
RST38hGave it an H264 encoded video, it said "cannot play" and then could not play any other video, even previously playable ones07:58
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RST38hHardkilling a bunch of gst processes seems to have cured it but still07:59
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ShadowJKdid this start after pr1.1? I forget08:00
MiXu-No, it's been there for a while.08:00
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villagerhmm, so (since nobody's explaining it), I'm guessing that shutter speed is the exposure control, and that ISO is the gain control of the sensor?08:03
MiXu-There's no actual shutter, is there :P08:04
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villagerit would have to be the digital equivalent... which, in my guess, is exposure08:05
MiXu-yeah, I think so08:06
RST38hShadowJK: I heard of this happening before 1.108:07
RST38hShadowJK: And yes it still happens now08:07
RST38hMiXu: Know the bug number for this?08:08
RST38hah finally a use for laser weaponry:
MiXu-RST38h: It's a known issue08:10
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Tobacreative nick08:11
PhonoN900good evening, all08:11
RST38hMiXu: Just wondering if anyone is working on it...08:11
crashanddie_RST38h: yeah, had that happen here as well08:13
crashanddie_RST38h: don't know what I tried to play, but suddenly even MP3 wouldn't go08:13
crashanddie_RST38h: had to reboot the device08:13
MiXu-RST38h: I think so yes. I can't go into details.08:13
RST38hMiXu: thanks =)08:14
crashanddie_bloody hell, noobmonkey is such a twat08:14
RST38hcrashanddie: Killing gst* processes appears to fix it, but a normal user would have to reboot indeed08:14
RST38hMeanwhile in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts:
crashanddie_he'll go at great lengths to put enormous emounts of sarcasm in his posts, but won't bother adding a link to actually make it useful08:15
crashanddie_RST38h: feck off, I'm not a "normal user"08:15
crashanddie_RST38h: the only thing you did was force a re-read of the available codecs -- list that got corrupted due to a stack overflow when opening mp4 files with a specific codec08:16
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RST38hcrashanddie: same list that is hardcoded?=08:18
RST38hmoorning konttori08:19
villagerRST38h: under what circumstances does it happen? maybe I have a similar problem... I reported my problem the bug tracker but not sure I really have a test case08:20
crashanddie_ShadowJK: <-- the pictures on the left and right extremities are the originals, the middle image is the HDR one08:21
* PhonoN900 still has not found a "view", in xchat, that allows me to see who is currently in the channel. Any suggestions?08:21
villagerI can mess up the media player by playing 128K WMA over mms/rtsp or something and then losing the connection08:22
villagerthen I gotta reboot08:22
MiXu-I has Facebook chat over XMPP!08:23
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villagerI has Facebook-free device, even better08:24
RST38hvillager: usually a h264-encoded video it cant play08:25
RST38hphonon900: pull left edge08:25
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villagerRST38h: okay, maybe not same issue then... I'm just playing audio, and works for a while...08:26
PhonoN900RST38h: Awesome awesome stuff. Thanks for that08:27
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ShadowJKvillager, is there a bug report?08:33
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villagerShadowJK: what, for my problem?08:33
LuciusMarehi, i might have a way how to make a n900 communicate with some electrical circuit... What about the jack and sound tones? You know, you can connect to the internet with telephone and tones... The sound frequency can be like voltage, we just need something that will translate the sound signal to electrical impulses...? Is it a stupid idea?08:33
villagerShadowJK: I reported mine as #866108:34
pwnguinLuciusMare: thats basically how the fm reciever works08:34
pwnguinexcept instead of passing that on to an audio output, you'd do further processing and whatnot08:35
pwnguinLuciusMare: ive been considering that approach for my own ir detector08:36
villagerthe n900 doesn't really connect to the internet with tones though...08:36
LuciusMareno no no, i meant like controlling servos, or somewhat08:36
pwnguins/ir detector/arduino08:37
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LuciusMareoh, so you understood me, i just wasnt sure08:37
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villagerpresumably you can assert a DC input/output on the sound chip that drives the headphone jack to give a signal, instead of necessarily using external circuitry to convert AC tones08:38
LuciusMarewell, after i get my arduino, i will definitely try that ^^08:38
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pwnguinLuciusMare: keep me posted ;)08:38
LuciusMareyes, of course, but no need to power the circuit from n900 anyway08:38
LuciusMareso thanks guys, gtg, bye08:39
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pwnguini gotta say i like these jumper wires08:40
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pwnguinthey're stranded copper soldered to solid core terminals08:41
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crashanddie_wow, how fascinating, a picture of wires and a led08:48
crashanddie_that's not something you see every day08:48
pwnguini have a video of it where the led changes color :P08:50
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crashanddie_pwnguin: your life must be thrilling08:52
pwnguinsome days08:52
RST38hbadly lit, discolored picture of wires and a led made by a cell phone08:52
* RST38h giggles satanically08:53
* thresh waves08:53
pwnguinbadly lit, yes. noisy, yes. cell phone yes08:54
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MiXu-Someone needs to write a software that can be used to mass merge contacts08:59
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MiXu-Would be a nice feature in Hermes08:59
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RST38hpwnguin: tiny little sensors often lose color saturation in bad lighting conditions09:00
RST38hpwnguin: Which is eactly what we see :)09:00
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RST38hSomeone needs to write a software that can be used for replacing every freaking 8 in my contacts with the proper +7 =)09:01
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threshdo cell operators still report incoming numbers with 8?09:01
RST38h(and yes, I tried editing vcards database)09:01
RST38hthresh: I have got a really old address book.09:01
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threshincoming calls from cell phones are +7 here, while those that were done with cable phones are reported with 809:02
RST38hthresh: As I said, a lot of my contacts are from 2001 or even a bit earlier09:03
threshyeah, i was mumbling on a side matter, not really related to yours09:03
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RST38hOh weird...N900 lost networking. Like, totally lost networking09:09
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RST38hLooks like DHCP client has died09:10
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tigertRST38h: perl -pi -e "s/8/+7/g" addressbook-export-file ? :)09:18
tigertwith proper regexp of course09:18
tigertthen reimport?09:18
RST38htigert: Yes but won't I get multiple contacts after reimport?09:23
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* RST38h is kinda afraid of reimport =)09:23
RST38h==> work09:23
DocScrutinizer(the +7 vs 8 thing)09:26
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tigertRST38h: erase all before reimport?09:30
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LantiziaMorning :)10:02
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timeless_mbpanyone here remember the name of the company which offers MfE support?10:05
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yakovI've converted mwv to mp4 using ffmpeg with default options only set smaller size. my resulting file is about 100M10:12
yakovand it takes ages to open in media player10:12
yakovi did not wait until it start playing10:13
yakovmight it be that i need to specify baseline coding for mp4?10:13
yakovare there any peculiarities10:14
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ifreqtry with handbrake and some n900 preset users made for it10:16
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Shrik3still better than a stylus10:25
Shrik3since you can eat it when you're done =)10:26
Shrik3and 100% biodegradable10:26
MiXu-Makes using iPhone 100% more fun10:26
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rmrfchik mode, the user cannot run DRM-protected software purchased from the Ovi Store or play music bought from the Nokia Comes With Music store...10:51
rmrfchikwho cares about Music store now?10:51
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X-Fadermrfchik: And then you can probably also not play games like Angrybirds anymore.10:52
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asj_I'm not so worried about the kernel, but the access control will kill the platform10:54
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asj_"So the main goal of Nokia's engineers was to create a lightweight system on top of existing Linux security mechanisms, while having to make the smallest possible change to existing applications. The Maemo 6 security system starts from the principle of least privilege: every application should be able to access only a limited set of needed resources"10:54
rmrfchikX-Fade: you mean, games I bought. Who cares now to buy games?10:54
asj_basically, Symbian Capabilities meets Maemo10:55
X-Fadermrfchik: No, also gratis games.10:55
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X-Fadermrfchik: Free as in no charge.10:55
Stskeepsasj_: what i've seen of it, it is really a security framework i would want on my PC as well.10:55
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rmrfchikmaemo will not able to run j2me?10:55
Stskeepsand i'm paranoid about this kind of stuff normally.10:55
asj_Stskeeps: you ever worked with symbian?10:55
crashanddiermrfchik: don't be thick10:55
rmrfchiki am10:56
Stskeepsasj_: briefly, and nothing of this reminds me of symbian capab in implementation.10:56
crashanddiermrfchik: of course j2me will work on maemo 610:56
X-Fadeasj_: In symbian capablities were awarded per developer. Now it is per repository.10:56
rmrfchikcrashanddie: so, why in opensource mode i will not able to run free games?10:56
asj_Stskeeps: sure, look at this line "but components like cellular functionality or location information will be on that list. The former should be protected because misuse could harm the device, while the latter should be protected because misuse could cause harm to the user."  -- until recently location was not on the list of 5 self grantable privs,that only change 8mo ago.10:57
X-Fadeasj_: So as long as Extras has the capabilities, we can assign them to your app.10:57
rhenzIve got problems to ping (or ssh) to my N900. It works only if I start a shell on my N900 and ping some other host10:57
Stskeepsasj_: you can edit your own security policy.10:57
crashanddiermrfchik: the writer of the article did a pretty poor job at understanding the principle10:57
*** tekojo has quit IRC10:57 the open mode, which gives them the capability to define their own security policy.10:59
asj_X-Fade: and wihch capabilities will the extra's repo have? ReadUsrData, WriteUserData, Location, NetworkServices? :)10:59
rmrfchikif I get .jar I will able to run it. will i?10:59
crashanddiermrfchik: stop thinking about bleending jar files10:59
crashanddiermrfchik: who gives a damn about jar files?10:59
Stskeepsasj_: my best argument for the need for this stuff is the fact it is probably possible for a random extras app to explode your battery or overwrite my NOLO.10:59
X-Fadeasj_: The idea is to have most, yes.10:59
asj_X-Fade: that's not most11:00
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X-Fadeasj_: No, but also cell etc.11:00
crashanddiermrfchik: my understanding is that people who run the Open system will be able to run any kernel/OS they want. At least this is how Elena has been explaining it to me. If you choose to opt in on the Nokia kernel, you will get all the tools and utilities needed to use DRM-protected content, or install DRM protected apps11:00
crashanddiermrfchik: if however, you choose to run another OS, there is no guarantee (alas, from Nokia) that the software and content will work; unless the OS/kernel implements the required packages to read it11:01
rmrfchikso, who cares about DRM protected apps now?11:01
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Stskeepsrmrfchik: DRM is just a sideeffect. it's what attracts most people's eyes to the thing, but the good thing is really in the framework itself.11:01
asj_Stskeeps: and you do have a point there, but the same argument can be made about linux for the last 18 years11:01
rmrfchikI considered to buy something. But not now. Now i think to dump maemo in favor of android.11:01
X-Fadermrfchik: It depends on what is being done with the default apps though.11:01
crashanddiermrfchik: android has exactly the same thing11:02
Stskeepsasj_: linux wasn't exactly made for mobile devices that are more promiscious than a slutty american girl getting introduced to european drinking..11:02
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crashanddiermrfchik: are you the same troll as yesterday?11:02
rmrfchiki different one11:02
crashanddiebut still a troll, thanks for admitting it11:02
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asj_Stskeeps: no, it's made to be on the front line of the internet with 4 billion infected windows machines knockking on the door ;)11:03
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rmrfchikcrashanddie: sure. being a troll allows me to get info11:03
rmrfchikcrashanddie: android is the same thing but it don't pretend to be open11:03
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crashanddiermrfchik: I'll say the same as yesterday: You do *not* understand the principle, you do *not* understand the consequences, and you definitely don't *understand* the basic advantages. If you can't look past the most obvious points11:03
crashanddiethen how about you just sod off?11:04
crashanddielearn to think, for crying out loud11:04
Stskeepsrmrfchik: how is open anything but being able to run your own kernel, disable drm, use the chip to your own advantage? :P11:04
rmrfchikcrashanddie: oh, c'mon. My point is such: maemo6 will open doors for DRM-lovely developers, so they will start to write stuff for maemo611:04
crashanddiermrfchik: and?11:04
asj_X-Fade: btw, symbian has 20 different capabilities, or which just to use an example Qt uses 19 ;)11:05
rmrfchikand this stuff will not run on maemo511:05
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crashanddiermrfchik: and?11:05
rmrfchikso, why the hell I need maemo5? i don't. so, dump it.11:05
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X-Fadeasj_: We should get all relevant ones.11:05
asj_so any OSS project with a scope similar to Qt is basically dead on symbian if it weren't owned by Nokia11:05
crashanddiermrfchik: you don't, but we use it, so fuck off?11:05
rmrfchikI pretty sure, opensource mode will have a lot ot restrictions11:05
Stskeepsrmrfchik: like what?11:05
X-Fadeasj_: Be assured I'm taking to the right people already.11:06
rmrfchikStskeeps: unsupported API11:06
rmrfchiku'll see it ;)11:06
crashanddiermrfchik: such as?11:06
rmrfchikopengl/es, motion senser, u name it11:06
rmrfchikor GPS11:06
crashanddiermrfchik: that has nothing to do with the TPM11:06
rmrfchik"sorry, GPS driver is avail only in DRM mode"11:06
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crashanddiermrfchik: I'm working on a bloody prototype you idiot, we're miles away from there11:07
rmrfchikcrashanddie: being a troll, I don't fuck you. be some polite.11:07
X-Fadecrashanddie: tone it down a bit please ;)11:07
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Stskeepsrmrfchik: my main argument against that happening is that well, if you can run your own kernel, how on earth are they going to limit your access..11:08
rmrfchikif platform allow to be controlled by vendor -- be sure, they will control it11:08
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X-Fadecrashanddie: I'm trying to keep it a at least a PG rating ;)11:09
rmrfchikStskeeps: heh, n810 has 3d hardware. where the fuck is driver? Ah... it closed.11:09
asj_ -- a good link for symbian capabilities if anyone is interested.  To write a screen saver for the OLED N85 I had you required: LocalService,ReadUserData,WriteUserData,PowerMgmt,ReadDeviceData,WriteDeviceData,SwEvent,NetworkControl or something like that.11:09
X-Fadermrfchik: heh, now you are talking to the right person :)11:09
rmrfchikStskeeps: you think maemo6 hw will be opened for your kernel?11:09
Stskeepsrmrfchik: not true. open source kernel driver, closed source lib (waiting for upload to TI extranet)11:09
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Stskeepsrmrfchik: maemo5 kernel is fully open source.11:09
rmrfchikwaiting... I rember old days with zaurus. When some usefull soft comes to it, zaurus was dead.11:10
crashanddiermrfchik: you do realise that people are running ubuntu on the N900, right?11:10
rmrfchikStskeeps: and what about hardware? maemo6 will run on it's own pjone11:10
X-Fadeasj_: Capabilities will be detected automatically in the SDK.11:10
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rmrfchikcrashanddie: with maemo5, which IS os11:10
X-Fadeasj_: No need to request anything manually.11:10
rmrfchikopensource, I mean11:11
crashanddiermrfchik: you're wrong on quite a few points, I'm sad to say11:11
rmrfchikshow me11:11
pupnikanything new/interesting announced in scrollback? :|11:11
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rmrfchikpupnik: no, just screaming11:11
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rmrfchikok, I have to go now. be the peace with you, guys ;) (will troll a bit later)11:12
crashanddiermrfchik: basically, each device has its own keys, having access to the keys enables you to run and play games and music that you bought from the Ovi store. In order to have access to the keys, you need to authenticate to the HSM, and the only way to do that is by running an authorised kernel.11:13
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asj_X-Fade: right, I saw that, but presumably is the repo doesn't provide it your app doesn't get compiled and added.  So let's see extras doesn't qualifiy for location since you can report nasty things to google/stalk your gf, etc.  No one writes gps enabled apps anymore.  More realistic is ReadDeviceData where you try and read /proc to override the camera button to provide tast swithing.  Sorry not allowed.  Or you want access to the system dbus.11:13
asj_bzzt rejected.11:13
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Stskeepsasj_: best way to ask about intentions is to go talk to the people implementing it.11:14
pupnikbut you can load kernel modules into an authorised kernel, right crashanddie ?11:14
Stskeepsthey're -very- reasonable people.11:14
X-Fadeasj_: Yes, simple things like that should really not happen.11:14
crashanddiepupnik: sure11:14
Stskeepsasj_: and they are out in the open and taking questions11:14
crashanddiepupnik: well, if you have a personalised OS/kernel from a network operator, they might limit you11:14
X-Fadeasj_: Only very high level capabilities might be an issue.11:14
crashanddiepupnik: however a stock Nokia device that you paid in full should be fine11:14
Stskeepscrashanddie: loading kernel modules is a bit of an attack vector though, for a DRM kernel :P11:15
crashanddieStskeeps: not really11:15
asj_X-Fade: you think they learnt from symbian caps? ;)11:15
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crashanddieStskeeps: the most important stuff happens in hardware, not software, so whatever accesses the hardware is irrelevant11:15
Stskeepscrashanddie: intercepting encrypt/decrypt requests? :)11:15
X-Fadeasj_: Look like they take a more minimal approach this time.11:15
asj_Stskeeps: tell me the right people, I'll email them as well :)11:15
Stskeepsasj_: hang on for finding the current threads11:16
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crashanddieStskeeps: not entirely convinced by that argument. I yet have to see a smartcard be compromised through software11:17
Stskeepscrashanddie: fair enough11:17
crashanddieStskeeps: plus, don't forget that Aegis will limit what is able to happen, so they could full well prevent anything but specific memory bits to access the HSM, if required11:17
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crashanddieX-Fade: I do realise the channel should be PG, but my patience grows thin with these kind of idiots11:18
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asj_Stskeeps: thanks :)11:20
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Stskeepsasj_: one very important thing i've had to learn about maemoians within nokia is the fact that maemo started as a research project and still has this open spirit. i've caught myself thinking them more 'evil' and 'calculating' than they were and being positively surprised.11:22
asj_Stskeeps: it's not the maemoans that I'm worried about11:22
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asj_heya jose_manrique11:43
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jose_manriquehas anybody tried  a 2.6.31 kernel in an n900?11:48
asj_I would love too, but I can't turn off DRM ;)11:52
* asj_ stops trolling11:52
pupnikmytube runs great on pc.  lets me see the youtubes without installing flash11:52
pekujawhat does it use instead?11:53
pupniki think it should go into debian upstream.11:54
Corsacdebian already has multiple youtube downloads, epiphany/firefox extension etc.11:55
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Corsac apt-cache search youtube | wc -l11:55
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pupnikso what12:10
pupnik"How can so much stupidity fit in one head? I think Seagate or WesternDigital should study such compression techniques."12:10
pupniknone of them do what mytube does12:10
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JaffaMorning, all12:13
pupnikwhich is: let you search, browse and download youtubes with previews from a gui12:13
JaffaGeneralAntilles: Indeed. More volunteers all round would be good (and some of the ones we've got are fairly quiet in terms of contributions)12:13
dovIs there any package for installing less(1) on maemo?12:14
cehtehin devel12:15
cehteh(or tools? .. forgot, but i have it installed for sure)12:15
dovcehteh: Ok, I'll have a look again, though I thought I checked it already.12:16
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dov(It's a tough name to search for...)12:17
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cehtehwoops its even in the main repo by now?12:17
dovHm... "apt-cache search less | grep less" doesn't find it.12:18
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LuciusMareHi, what is /usr/sbin/anim-shower for?12:29
Stskeepsold tool i think12:29
LuciusMareno animated showers? :(12:30
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dovxev in x11-utils is broken. It doesn't take keyboard focus to the xev window.12:33
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asj_Error: Can't open display: :112:35
Stskeeps <- Mer 0.17 with 3d acceleration on N90012:36
dovIn what directory is the Contact DB stored? I still haven't sync'd my phone.12:36
asj_Stskeeps: cool12:37
X-FadeStskeeps: Nice.12:37
X-FadeStskeeps: Nice Sith look going on btw in the reflection :)12:38
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StskeepsX-Fade: yeah :P12:38
* asj_ doesn't understand hoodies ;)12:38
Stskeepsit's cold here.12:39
X-Fadewearing one now too.12:39
asj_Stskeeps: where are you?12:39
Stskeepsasj_: poland.12:39
threshhoodies are cool12:39
asj_Stskeeps: ah, you guys have had a rough winter there too?12:40
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Stskeepsasj_: -25 C and a lot of snow12:40
Stskeeps(well, not right now -25 C but earlier)12:40
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asj_Stskeeps: well it12:41
asj_Stskeeps: well it's +25c here ;)12:41
X-FadeOh how nice would it be to have that here. Can't wait for the summer.12:42
asj_it'll be there soon enough12:43
Stskeepseh, people reporting that they received Pandoras in the mail? :P12:45
pekujaI think they've sent them out to some developers12:46
pekuja@Craigix sez: "Another batch of Pandoras made from the last case samples shipped to devs today."12:47
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pekujaasj_: a handheld gaming device12:48
pekujaasj_: open source, Linux-based, hardware based on Beagle Board, I think12:48
asj_thanks fragment12:49
fragment"same" hardware as in N90012:49
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asj_wow, that makes the n900 look non brick like ;)12:49
Myrttiomg ugly12:50
Stskeepstruely designed by engineers12:50
asj_look where the space bar is ;)12:50
RST38hWhat? Pandora shipping already? Or have the founders been finally arrested for fraud?12:51
pekujait is basically made for engineers12:52
pekujaRST38h: not yet12:52
* RST38h facepalms slightly12:52
pekujaRST38h: probably after Chinese new year12:52
RST38hDesigned by engineers, for engineers, to be produced by engineers, and sold by engineers to engineers, but not for very long12:52
pekujathe design is pretty nuts12:53
RST38hpekuja: there is no design12:53
RST38hit is a used soap box with some buttons, spraypainter black12:54
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pekujait's like they had a meeting: "ok, which features should we put in?" "all of them"12:54
pekujayeah, well I basically mean the feature set12:54
RST38hwell, Maemo Devices also seem to have had a meeting like that, but it did not lead to a used soap box12:54
pekujait's like they just put everything in it that they could possibly think of12:54
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ruskiestill wouldn't mind having one ;)13:00
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Tronxpossible to manually create the deb file?13:04
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Tronxthe applications is just one executable.13:05
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Tronxpupnik_ : ok, thx for answering this question above, how about this one -- how exactly ? ;)13:06
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BluesLeefelipe`: ping13:09
pupnik_why do you want to make a deb13:09
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Tronxpupnik_ : to be able to add a shortcut to it to the desktop13:11
* satmd had more funny ideas: lock the n900 so an alarm goes off when disconnected from usb13:11
Tronxthe command exec  widget is giving me lots of problems13:11
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satmdI just lack the free time currently13:12
pupnik_a .deb is an ar archive containing control, data.13:12
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pupnik_extract an existing deb with ar command13:13
Tronxpupnik_ : found a good article, let me read it and i'll come back to you if all else fails.13:14
BluesLeedoes someone use an msn plugin here?13:15
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ifreqmsn pecan13:16
MiXu-I use the pecan also, but not on daily basis.13:16
BluesLeei installed msn pecan yesterday13:17
BluesLeeand my battery was completely drained this morning13:17
MiXu-BluesLee: It's because of the MSN protocol13:17
MiXu-It's shit for mobile use13:17
ifreqyeah dont use it 24/713:17
ifreqsamew with facebook widget13:18
ifreqit polls continuously13:18
BluesLeehehe, i used it 5 minutes, just to test it13:18
BluesLeei turned off wifi13:18
ifreqso no wonder you ran out of batt13:18
ifreqsure your gprs/edge/3g wasnt on?13:18
BluesLeeand i was sure that it shutdown the device13:18
BluesLeeifreq: sure13:18
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ruskieuse jabber and use a msn transport... let the server handle the nasty protocols ;)13:18
ifreqor did it left you with msn trying to connect into mtework13:19
MiXu-Battery-eye is a nice piece of software for checking the power consumption.13:19
ifreqi disablw msn account when i dont use it13:19
MiXu-me too13:19
BluesLeeMiXu-: yes, i checke it with battery-eye (great tool)13:19
MiXu-I just wish it updated itself :)13:19
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BluesLeedo you use the latest version from testing?13:20
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BluesLeemaybe i retry it13:20
ifreqjust disable acc when no use13:20
BluesLeeoki doki, i forgot that, nevertheless when going offline with wifi it shouldnt do anything13:21
jacekowskiMiXu-: it only shows battery level13:21
jacekowskiMiXu-: not power consumption13:21
MiXu-jacekowski: I know13:21
Tronxok doesnt really seem to make sense13:21
MiXu-But it's pretty easy to look at the graph and figure out the consumption as well.13:22
MiXu-It would be easy to derive the consumption from the readings it gets, so maybe in the next version :)13:22
jacekowskinot really13:23
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jacekowskibattery isn't linear13:23
jacekowskiand it's not accurate enough13:23
jacekowskiesspecialy with GSM working13:23
Tronxpupnik_ : i've extracted a deb file a moment ago and just found the files that needed to be extracted, in the form of /usr/bin/file ...13:23
jacekowskias it transmists 8 times per second with full 2W power13:23
Tronxis it that simple ?13:23
jacekowskiyou need something really fast for it13:23
pupnik_extracted with what Tronx13:23
pupnik_ar or dpkg13:24
ptlHow do I use the PC Suite Mode when connected to a Linux laptop?13:24
Tronxsome tool i found called anytoiso13:24
Tronxwindows applications.13:24
asj_ptl: ifconfig usb0 <ip>13:24
pupnik_learn to use ar13:24
MiXu-jacekowski: It doesn't have to be accurate. Average consumption is good enough for me.13:25
GEROINHi linuxoids!13:25
ptlasj_: oh, it's just a point-to-point network connection? Anyway, what I meant was, what program do I use to synchronize contacts, todos and so on?13:25
MiXu-I've done power measuring stuff and it's not even possible to make accurate measurements by software.13:25
asj_ptl: it does more than that13:25
cos^i'm changing operator and i've inserted the new operator's sim. Is it normal that N900 says "Sim card registration failed"?13:25
MiXu-You need separate hardware for that.13:26
cos^the new sim _should_ work by now13:26
MiXu-cos^: Yes. Your new sim doesn't work yet.13:26
X-Fadecos^: Then the sim is not activated yet.13:26
ptlasj_: what does it do, which software do I use?13:26
asj_ptl: Nokia PC Suite13:26
pupnik_Tronx: see this
ptlfor Linux?13:26
cos^ok.. maybe i'll just wait and keep rebooting13:26
ptlI am on a Linux laptop13:26
ptlI don't even have Windows13:27
asj_ptl: that excersize is left to the student13:27
Tronxok thx13:27
X-Fadecos^: I think it tries automatically. No need to reboot.13:27
ptlasj_: I am asking the answer to that exercise ;)13:27
ptlgnokii, maybe?13:27
BluesLeeMiXu-: is there also an irc plugin for conversations?13:27
asj_ptl: you'll have to use something like mfe or syncml13:27
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ptlBluesLee: there is, I didn't use it yet, but you can download that plugin13:28
ptl[patola@ubuntola bittornado]% apt-cache search mfe13:28
ptlvdmfec - recover lost blocks using Forward Error Correction13:28
ptlmfe? couldn't find it13:28
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ptlwhat's mfe, asj_ ?13:32
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asj_ptl: mail for exchange13:32
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ptlmail for exchange? On Linux?13:32
asj_maybe there's a linux client?13:32
asj_you can sync to google via nueva sync then back to linux easy enough13:33
ptlI am a complete alien to the windows world13:33
ptlhaven't used it for years13:33
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ptlI'll remap my keyboard13:35
alteregoevolution can sync with exchange servers.13:35
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ptlI know but I haven't used evolution for about 3 years, and I never used exchange sync13:37
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crashanddiehey BluesLee13:38
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crashanddieBluesLee: why does your nickname seem familiar? (and don't say martial arts)13:38
BluesLeehey crashanddie, ho r u?13:38
StskeepsX-Fade: btw, doesn't seem to work13:39
crashanddieStskeeps: it's a conspiracy13:39
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X-FadeStskeeps: Hmm let me check.13:39
BluesLeecrashanddie: i am not sure but you tried to convince me that i should call nokia support after removing the "useless" mac os directory in /home:-)13:40
BluesLeeor was it someone else?13:40
crashanddieI told you to call nokia support?13:40
crashanddiedoubt it, however I do remember something about mac os, so may have been part of the conversation13:41
X-FadeStskeeps: Works fine from the logs? Check your gmail?13:41
StskeepsX-Fade: hmm, got that one13:41
* Stskeeps tests something13:41
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BluesLeecrashanddie: i was wrong, that was someone else ... but we discussed something in the past, i dont remember what13:42
BluesLeedoes someone knows the app iqnotes?13:44
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BluesLeeor qtdiary?13:44
BluesLeei miss something like that, hierachical notes app and a diary app13:45
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Hrwwiqnotes... old qtopia times13:48
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hrwBluesLee: try Conboy. it is not hierarchical but linkable notes13:49
BluesLeehrw: your name remembers of a guy in poland13:49
hrwBluesLee: /whois hrw13:49
BluesLeehrw: ahh ... i was formerly known as malik (zaurus times)13:50
BluesLeehrw: i wrote as message in your blog concerning the lack of a good gps app13:51
hrwI know13:51
BluesLeehrw: if navit would be more stable it would be my first choice13:51
BluesLeeits much more usable on the neo freerunner13:52
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hrwBluesLee: please... do not mention openmoko devices... I have 2x neo1973 and do not like any13:55
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mikhas1973 ... they are pretty old then13:56
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hrwmikhas: I got them 3 years ago or sth like that. I was part of 'so called' Phase0 developers13:56
BluesLeehrw: i will give away my zaurus sl3100 tomorrow, good old times13:57
hrwnever had 3100. I had 5500 (gave to Thomas Kunze for 2.6 porting), c760 (got as donation, still have). for some time I also had 5600, 6000L, 3000 which were OpenEmbedded project devices.13:58
hrwbest combo would be c760 with sl-6000l screen13:58
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BluesLeethe screen of the tosa was really great13:59
BluesLeeand it was great as a gameboy replacement14:00
BluesLeenevertheless, the n900 is the device of our choice and the best so far14:01
hrweach device has own lacks14:03
hrwnokia tablets lack accessible serial port which was great to have in Zaurus14:03
hrwok, have to go - bb in ~1h14:04
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jacekowskihrw|gone: why you would need serial port in it?14:08
jacekowskihrw|gone: use can use usb->serial converter in n800 and n81014:08
jacekowskihrw|gone: and it will probably be possible in n900 in future14:09
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X-Fadezerojay: ping?14:21
VDVsxcrashanddie, ping14:23
crashanddieVDVsx: pong14:23
X-FadeVDVsx: Bugtracker and description checks deployed.14:24
VDVsxcrashanddie, merge request: and
VDVsxX-Fade, cool :)14:24
VDVsxcrashanddie, one of the disadvantages of being available on irc :D14:25
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crashanddieVDVsx: You have reached the automated reply bot for "crashanddie", who is not available at the moment. Please leave a /msg after the beep.14:25
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RoazielUmm, can anyone tell me if ScummVM and DRNokSnes can be installed on N900 and if they're stable?14:28
crashanddieRoaziel: yes and yes14:28
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VDVsxcrashanddie, thanks :)14:29
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VDVsxX-Fade, cool: "Warning: This package does not have the required bugtracker link specified!" ;)14:33
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RoazielAny instruction manual I can read for installing ScummVM and DRNokSnes on N900? :P14:40
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VDVsxRoaziel, these apps are in Extras-devel repository at least14:42
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pupnik_Roaziel: gaming threads have extensive discussions on those programs14:46
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Roazielextras-devel ? :S.. but they crashanddie said they were stable. Are Extra-devel apps usually umm, waiting to be confirmed as stable?14:57
satmddevel -> testing -> stable14:59
satmddepending on the willing of risking breakage, willing of testing or the no-risk option14:59
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pupnik_Are there any 3rd party batteries superior to the Nokia BP-5L for N900?15:04
pupnik_besides the double sized mugen15:04
jacekowskinokia one is the best15:04
jacekowskiit's just about physical limit of battery15:05
anunakinI need some help on scratchbox and maemo 5 sdk, I cant install base-passwd package because a  error on update-passwd15:05
ifreqi use atom power15:05
xtifreq: everyone does15:05
jacekowskii'm using diesel power15:06
jacekowski( no mains electricity for 3rd day already )15:06
ifreqnuclears ftw15:06
matthew-I use fusion.15:07
jacekowskidiesel ftw15:07
ifreqalso sacrifying virgins helps15:07
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SpeedEvil np: Prodigy - Diesel power.15:08
lcukpupnik, i saw something about an extended battery15:10
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X-FadeA second battery doubles the capacity :) That is how I do it when I go away to somewhere where I don't have power for a really long time.15:12
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pupnik_ok i buy originals then15:13
matthew-ifreq: p-11B cycle FTW!15:13
X-Fadepupnik_: Just put a few in your bag ;) They are so light, you don't notice it.15:13
pupnik_yeah and i lost one :)15:14
threshbag? what's that?15:14
pupnik_or maybe it is in a pocket somewhere :)15:14
X-Fadepupnik_: yeah, light also has it's downsides.15:14
X-Fadethresh: Or pocket. Together with your keys :D15:14
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pupnik_wow +5 insightful15:15
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prontoyay my second n900 should be here on monday15:20
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prontomy first one broke15:23
prontothe usb port came out when i was unplugging it15:23
prontoyeah -.-15:23
jacekowskifree repair?15:24
prontofree replace15:24
pronto<3 newegg15:24
prontoeven if sometimes they're not the cheapest , its worth it for the custommer support15:25
prontothough when i orginnally bought it, dell was the only cheaper place selling the n90015:25
pupnik_some intrepid hacker should find a 3rd party lcd that can attach to the n900 board15:26
MiXu-Why? :)15:27
pupnik_so we can maked little n900 netbooks as hobbyists15:27
prontothat would be awesome15:27
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pupnik_maybe for n900 push15:29
Arifwhere is the call log hidden on the N90015:30
MiXu-in the phone application15:30
* Arif looks15:31
* Arif still thinks S60 style15:31
MiXu-There's only one thing I miss from S60. Sportstracker.15:32
ArifI miss some media player features15:32
Stskeepse-coach? :P15:32
Ariflike when I press back in now playing15:32
Arifthe currently playing song was selected15:32
MiXu-Stskeeps: eCoach doesn't have a nice web portal to complement it.15:33
X-FadeMiXu-: yet...15:33
MiXu-In many other ways eCoach is better15:33
Markus23I think too that eCoach is great15:34
Markus23had no problem with it so far, and use it a lot15:34
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hrwjacekowski: I do not want to have device->serial but serial->device15:34
hrwjacekowski: it is very useful thing when you develop new kernel or distribution for device15:34
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ptlthat is VERY disappointing. :(15:35
ptlI just found out that Maemo 6 will have a drm-enabled mode15:35
MiXu-Anyone checked if it's possible to import existing (sportstracker) workouts to eCoach?15:36
X-Fadeptl: Almost 6 months know now, old news?15:36
ptlX-Fade: old news but I didn't know until now15:36
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ruskieptl, apparently it will be optional though15:36
ArifDRM is made for your convenience!15:36
Arif.....or so they say15:36
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ptlit will, but the mere option will enable drm-drones to buy the phone and bully the market into it15:36
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X-FadeWhat is the easiest way to extract the changelog from a .deb package?15:37
cehtehwho likes capacitative displays? :)15:37
Stskeepsdpkg-deb -e15:37
ruskieX-Fade, wasn't there a dpkg option to display it?15:37
Stskeepsptl, it will also give you open mode, too :P15:37
ruskieptl, how will they bully if nobody bothers buying the stuff?15:37
hrwX-Fade: use mc (midnight commander) to view inside?15:38
keesjhrw: the serial certainly is placed behind thbatterye15:38
ptlis there a PDF reader for n900 that has cinetic scrolling like the native one but remembers the pages you were on when you closed the program?15:38
hrwX-Fade: or "dpkg --extract file.deb ."15:38
hrwkeesj: sure, and require soldering thin wires to make it fit under battery or making some kind of jig to have battery on cables15:39
keesji did a sweet hack once for that15:39
ruskieptl, hmmm I take it evnice doesn't do it?15:39
ruskieStskeeps, that vid was a bit speed increased wasn't it?15:40
keesjperhaps we  should try to request such adapters15:40
hrwkeesj: the problem is that I lack 600€ to get another n900 in case something will get fried15:40
Stskeepsruskie: what vid?15:40
prontowait, ptl drm mode? :s   source?15:40
Stskeepsthe one with the acceleration ? no15:40
X-Fadehrw: I just want to only have the changelog file ;)15:40
ruskielooked like that to me15:40
keesjproblematic indeed15:40
ptlruskie: I installed evince on my emulated N900 and it doesn't do cinetic scrolling there15:40
ptlpronto: yes, that's very bad15:41
prontothhats evil15:41
Stskeepssigh, will you drm naysayers look into the actual technology15:41
Shrik3cehteh: 1) 100% biodegradable 2) cheaper than a stylus =)15:41
prontothough, i've never had an issue with drm...since nothing i own has drm xD15:41
ruskieStskeeps, if it restricts it's pointless :)15:42
cehtehShrik3: but dont bite in your finger accidentally15:42
hrwX-Fade: dpkg-deb --fsys-tarfile file.deb | your script which will get just changelog from tar archive15:42
Stskeepsruskie: if you can write your own security policy, how does it restrict? :P15:42
hrwptl: emulated n900? tell me more15:43
ruskieptl, hmm it does do scrooling... might be somewhat kinetic but yeah it's not like in the address book or others15:43
ruskieStskeeps, true15:43
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ptlhrw: scratchbox15:44
ptlhrw: It's all on the maemo 5 sdk installation guide15:44
hrwptl: it is not emulation15:44
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ptlbut you got the idesa15:44
hrwptl: it is just part of maemo5 running on x8615:44
Stskeepsruskie: then again, presenting this stuff at FOSDEM is kinda ball-sy15:45
ptlwine is also not an emulator, but it's close enough for most people... :)15:45
hrwptl: I have n800 REAL emulator in qemu - thats emulation15:45
Stskeepsit's like waving a red cloth in front of people15:45
ptlYeah, I tried running the armel target in scratchbox15:45
X-FadeStskeeps: But the code is out in the open now.15:45
ptlit doesn't work for Xephyr15:45
ptlmost things dump core.15:46
StskeepsX-Fade: all of it?15:46
ptlso I guess the "real" emulation part is flaky15:46
hrwptl: I am not talking of sbox running some binaries15:46
X-FadeStskeeps: No idea, but there is code in gitorious now.15:46
StskeepsX-Fade: just libcreds2 :P15:46
hrwptl: you can use qemu to run n800 emulation and use Diablo/Chinook/Poky/anything as system15:46
X-FadeStskeeps: Well watch that space, or something like tha ;)15:46
X-FadeHmm I really have packetloss on my keyboard.15:47
StskeepsX-Fade: yeah :P15:47
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keesji liked fosdem saw many n900 devices but no real developer interest in maemo15:47
ptlanything includes fremantle?15:47
hrwkeesj: indeed - n900 was at big amount15:47
hrwptl: give me fremantle for n8x015:48
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keesjthe ofono talk was followed by only a handfull of people15:48
hrwI had other talks at that time15:48
hrwmore interesting ones ;D15:48
keesj... see ....15:49
Stskeepskeesj: open something sadly doesn't always mean that people will contribute15:49
ptlare you guys bitter about N900? I feel like you don't likeit15:49
Stskeepsi'm not bitter, i use it every day. :P15:49 (FSO) stuff was nice15:49
hrwptl: I use it every day as a phone and complain even more often15:50
keesjbut compared to the maemo event really not much15:50
Myrttiptl: developers have always things to complain about15:50
Myrttiptl: don't let it muddle your perception15:50
hrwMyrtti: users too ;(15:50
ptlI was a developer15:50
Myrttihrw: developers usually have more issues15:50
* hrw is more user then developer on maemo5 platform. but more advanced user then n00b15:50
Corsacn900 is not a phone anyway15:51
ptlwell, I'm still sort of a developer, but my job is an Unix System Administrator now15:51
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hrwCorsac: it is good device with crap software15:51
ptlI bought the n900 because that would be the first phone I'd be able to program for.15:51
mikhasI think it is the other way around, hrw =)15:51
ptlI also see it as the other way around15:51
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keesjas embedded engineer if find the n900 an amazing platform to play with15:52
LinuxCodeyou should be glad there is a N90015:52
Veggencrap software? What is, isn't bad.15:52
* LinuxCode has been waiting years for a device thats running a proper linux distro and has 3g and fits in the pocket15:52
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hrwptl: I have 2 openmoko devices15:52
Veggengranted, there's not the selection as for the iPhone. But things have a potential.15:52
ArifI find it a great toy, too15:52
hrwmikhas: hw is nice from my point of view. software has many bugs which will remain not fixed15:53
LinuxCodehrw, are you the project lead for maemo ?15:53
LinuxCodeand that is why you know they wont get fixed ?15:53
hrwLinuxCode: 'fixed in harmattan', 'wontfix for fremantle' - heard that too many times now15:54
pupnik_hrw is pretty accurate there.  but "many" is subjective15:54
LinuxCodeI see that daily in Fedora too15:54
LinuxCodeso ?15:54
ptlLinuxCode: me to15:54
Arifas long as they fix the bug I entered today15:54
hrwLinuxCode: browser is hildonized nicely. but go to page which has expired ssl certificate and you will get ugly page - wontfix by nokia15:55
LinuxCodeif it says wont fix, for the most part people provide no useful information15:55
ptlLEAP support is 'wontfix' :(15:55
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ptlI need LEAP support so badly.15:55
fralss/ugly/default mozilla/15:55
LinuxCodeptl, LEAP is proprietary15:56
hrwfrals: sure, but it remains not hildon style so ugly15:56
LinuxCodetell cisco to change the license15:56
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LinuxCodenow you see why people say "wontfix"15:57
LinuxCodenot a bug...15:57
hrwbug #6933 is a bug15:58
povbot`Bug Alarm times are shown wrong15:58
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hrwbug #8549 is a bug15:58
povbot`Bug Skype call/chat to offline contacts ends with wrong text note15:58
hrwbug #7788 is a bug15:58
povbot`Bug emoticons are displayed in chat view but messages list do not shows them15:58
hrwetc etc etc15:58
ptlLinuxCode: well, n900 has proprietary code in it. Instead of worrying about DRM in maemo 6, why can't they do something useful when you need to go proprietary?15:59
hrwlack of folder subscription in email client is a bug which hits badly on hundreds of imap folders15:59
ptlwhat's the best way to use gmail in n900 if you have thousands of unread messages?15:59
Shrik3read the damn messages?-)16:00
Myrttihth, hand16:00
Shrik3or set up a filter so your inbox won't get flooded16:00
keesji a all for the maemo security model(what i understand of it)16:00
ptlI tried it on the emula... ooops, sorry, scratchbox environment compiled for x86 and it was slow as hell16:00
hrwbug #72127 is other annoying bug16:00
povbot`Bug was not found.16:00
ptlthere's a maemo 4 client called macuco16:00
ptlbut it isn't ported to the N900 yet16:00
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ptlit's just a webkit browser widget that identifies itself as iPhone and then handles the screen properly16:01
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ptlon gmail16:01
keesjother companies I know are doing a worse job16:02
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keesjhorrible job and the maemo security sounds doable16:03
keesji think they miss good runtime protection of processes16:03
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ptlyou saying that there's a real need for drm?16:05
ptldrm is different from security16:05
Stskeepsptl: drm is just a side effect, main focus is on on-device security16:05
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Shrik3drm is the way you get commercial software on devices16:06
ptlthat's my point, it does not need to be a side-effect16:06
ptlyou can get on-device security without drm16:06
keesjindeed i think there is a good need for booth16:06
Shrik3ptl: how?16:06
Stskeepsptl: sure, and that's what open mode is also for - making your own security policy16:06
Shrik3or we might just have different definitions of "DRM"16:06
ptljust apply standard security measures. like, say, firewall, permissions, capabilities, good programming practices, process protection and so on16:07
keesjsecurity first but second help developers sell sofware to make a viable place is a good goal IMHO16:07
X-FadeThere are 2 things. There is going to be platform security and drm support.16:07
pupnik_not being able to use ussd is a catastrophe for german providers16:07
ptlwhat's ussd?16:08
Shrik3ptl: and that would stop piracy how?16:08
ptloh, you said security.16:08
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pupnik_being able to manage the prepaid account requires this menu system which uses # ans *16:08
ptlsecurity does not really concern unauthorized use of copyrighted software.16:08
doubleukayzerojay: hey, I've used your flash blocker for a day and it's been working well, thanks!16:09
keesjptl device security is different. go watch the maemo security presentation and come back when you reaaly know what you are talking about16:09
ptlkeesj: ok, what's the URL?16:09
keesjgoogle for it!16:09
ptlbut I may find the wrong one. Assure I am in the right direction. :)16:09
keesji a on my n90016:09
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ptlor at least say the site, that decreases the chance of mistake.,16:10
pupnik_user security is different from content/software provider security ptl16:10
pupnik_they want to secure their apps from copying16:10
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X-Fadepupnik_: yes, but there is a lot more.16:10
ptlthat's sooooo 1999.16:10
VDVsxis some more maemo6 code already out ? other someone made a mistake at -devel ML ? :)16:11
X-Fadepupnik_: Allowing apps to encrypt their data, checking capabilities of an app. Making sure nobody else messes with your own app.16:11
StskeepsVDVsx: i assume he's getting spanked with birc leaves in public at the moment as punishment16:11
keesjthe main thing is that YOU also dont want every stupid app that you download to be able to read youperswonal data16:11
pupnik_ty X-Fade16:11
ptl<flame>So, DRM is really an enabled for immorality and immoral software?</flame>16:11
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keesjsecurity is developed on gitorious16:11
Stskeepsor for hiding your porn website history from your wife16:12
Stskeepsdepending on perspective16:12
VDVsxStskeeps, ehehe, not a big deal, I think16:12
nid0thats what microb needs, inprivate!16:12
ptlkeesj: but that's fine-grained access that can be implemented using capabilities and no DRM at all, isn't it?16:12
X-FadeOr securing your phonebook, local files.16:12
Stskeepsptl: capabilities are notoriously broken in that regard :P16:12
Stskeepsdbus security is an interesting thing, too16:12
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ptlso, let's say dbus security. Ok, so we got a solution. Then why DRM?16:13
keesjwe are talking about security not drm. drm is the side effecg that one app can hide the data from the other apps16:13
ptlDRM is bad in all cases, in my opinion. You don't have an organization that's deemed to stop dbus security, do you?16:13
X-Fadeptl: You really need to read the slides.16:13
ptlThe guys from Defective by Design know better16:13
Stskeepsptl: you need to read all the Q&A stuff and slides16:13
ptlX-Fade: I am keen to...16:13
keesjdbus only work on user security so.....16:13
X-Fadeptl: they are on slideshare.16:14
Stskeepsptl: DRM is a side effect to a security framework. security framework makes it possible, but you don't need DRM to use security framework.16:14
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keesjthey added security to the dbusdaemon to support theire security model.16:14
crashanddieI love how people complain, and when you point out they should've been just a tad more patient, suddenly you're the bad guy for implying they were impatient...16:15
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ptlis that the URL?
ptlthere is another for maemo 6 specifically16:15
Stskeepsthis one is most recent16:16
X-Fadeptl: maemo 5 has no platform security ;)16:16
X-Fadeptl: So ...16:16
crashanddieX-Fade: sure it has plenty of security... You can... Oh wait16:16
X-Fadecrashanddie: user / root, that is about it :)16:17
Stskeepsruskie: why did you think the video is speed up btw? it's actually how fast it goes :)16:17
crashanddieX-Fade: at least the passwords aren't stored in unencrypted text files... oh wait16:17
ptlX-Fade: so that's why it's am fabulous platform16:17
ptlX-Fade: why made it worse on purpose?16:17
pupnik_god damn these carriers.  sucking my money and blocking service16:18
X-Fadeptl: Wait until some app causes your phonebill to be $10000,-16:18
crashanddieptl: it's not worse16:18
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ptlX-Fade: you make it sound like open-source is insecure...16:18
crashanddieX-Fade: nou dat is echt een Hollandse manier om een getal te schrijven ;) met ",-" op het einde16:19
Stskeepsptl: the current problems are people complaining their IM passwords are plain text, for instance16:19
ptlbecause that's what's being compared here16:19
Stskeepsthis could be fixed with security framework16:19
X-Fadeptl: It can be. Just like closed source can be.16:19
ruskieStskeeps, your hand movements seem faster than I would expect16:19
SpeedEvilSome aspects of it.16:19
X-Fadeptl: I just would like to know about it.16:19
Stskeepsruskie: i have really fast and creepy hands16:19
SpeedEvilA comprehensive security framework that doesn't get in the way is hard.16:19
X-Fadecrashanddie: yeah yeah, dutchman is creeping up sometimes.16:20
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ArifI've been thinking16:20
ptlX-Fade: it can, but not by itself, it's not mandatory, and you are using it in contrast with being able to store encrypted passwords16:20
derfIf it doesn't get in the way, it's not security.16:20
Arifa battery and signal indicator on the "slide to unlock" screen would be nice16:20
SpeedEvilAnd that doesn't impact performance much16:20
ptlbut does16:20
Stskeepseither way16:20
crashanddieX-Fade: I'm afraid it never really leaves ya16:20
Stskeepsshould we let them release examples of use and the source before we condemn them to death? :P16:20
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Stskeepslet practice speak for itself16:21
crashanddieX-Fade: at some point you might convince people you're south african, but that's about as good as it'll get16:21
ptlwell, but it is the practive speaking for itself16:21
ptldrm has been there for years16:21
ptland I haven't recalled seeing a single good case for it.16:21
X-Fadecrashanddie: I can pull off a belgian quite nicely though ;)16:21
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ptlit's all about disabling legitimate rights.16:22
sivangdo we have phone switch for Fremantle ?16:22
sivang(sorry about the abrupt entrance)16:22
Stskeepsptl: or protecting your content16:22
sivang(and hi to all)16:22
ptlusing the badly named "piracy" as a lame excuse16:22
sivangtimeless: still here?16:22
X-Fadeptl: Most of this security is really not about drm at all.16:23
lbtwhat does (#) mean?16:23
ptlX-Fade: so keep the non-drm part! Why the open source guys can't get the secure part?16:23
Stskeepsptl: sure they can16:23
Stskeepsptl: that's the point16:23
lbtlike \o/ ?16:23
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X-Fadeptl: It is just like SELinux in a lot of respects.16:23
Stskeepsptl: if you don't want DRM, you're more than free to not have it16:23
Stskeepsand use the security framework for your own abilities16:24
dnearyamigadave, Ping?16:24
keesji don't think tere are many examples of good but open security applied to the phone usage senario16:24
X-Fadeptl: And there is a drm component too. But that part sets of red flags so that you can't think clearly anymore ;)16:24
SpeedEvilptl: I want to give my child the phone - to amuse them in the car. I trust them to not throw it out the window. I do not trust them to not go looking for porn.16:24
ptlStskeeps: can I choose to not have DRM and have the rest of the security framework? I am reading the presentation and it doesn't seem possible16:24
keesji did not look at palm pre yet so i don't know what they did16:24
Stskeepsptl: yes16:24
X-Fadeptl: Yes, you can.16:24
X-Fadeptl: In open mode, the device key for the drm part is not available. So drm doesn't work.16:25
amigadavedneary: pong16:25
w00t <- hahaha.16:25
X-Fadeptl: But you still have the platform security, only now you can specify the policies.16:25
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ptl*this choice16:26
ptlwell, I have to say it's not as bad as I thought then, but I still think having this choise is not good, because the proprietary software industry will bully the viability of this future device being closed-source, copyrighted and patented material only, and again the open-source programmers will have to play catch...16:26
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timeless_mbpsmaug: before i forget, the answer to who improves modest is: you, it's 100% opensource @ modest.garage.maemo.org16:28
timeless_mbpNokia doesn't micro manage the project, and if there are improvements in modest, then they should appear in future versions released by nokia16:28
X-Fadeptl: It being a phone brings some resposibilities for us too. Not giving users a high phonebill or making sure your facebook password isn't uploaded is crucial.16:28
timeless_mbpsorry for the terrible delay16:28
timeless_mbpthe only mail related things which aren't opensource are MfE/pcsuite/nokia messaging, which are just sync / provider plugins16:29
ptlX-Fade: agree on that16:29
ptlX-Fade: disagree on drm16:29
keesjso the biggest problem (for me) is that it will be nokia who in the end will say if your application is allowed to access the phone functionality and i reaaly hope (but dont thing so) the phone can be used in insecure mode16:29
ptlagree on aegis security model16:29
ptlon encrypted passwords and such16:29
Stskeepsptl: one example that actually did happen was the FM radio causing the microphone not to work and hence disrupting emergency calls etc.. which points to the need for security within the OS16:29
X-Fadeptl: But you can just boot your own kernel and not use it.16:30
Stskeepsright now, an installed app has access to everything16:30
cpasjusteis there a package size limit when installing with hildon package manager ?16:30
X-FadeI still think we need to have a discussion on the 'killswitch' too.16:30
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ptlbut look16:30
X-FadeShould the community be able to kill a obviously broken app.16:31
ptlthis security model is about: YOU deciding whether or not the software makes some stuff or not16:31
X-FadeOr warn the user in some way.16:31
ptlbut DRM is the opposite: the SOFTWARE deciding for you how you use your device16:31
SpeedEvilptl: no it's not.16:31
SpeedEvilptl: you can use DRM under the users control to enforce their wishes.16:31
RST38hpt1 is right16:31
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RST38hDRM decides for me on the use of BitTorrent16:32
X-FadeRST38h: Which will still work in Maemo 6.16:32
X-FadeRST38h: So options enough.16:32
RST38hhopefully :)16:32
Stskeepsptl, in implementation DRM is about keeping cryptographic keys secret and content secret16:32
SpeedEvilptl: I don't want the wallpaper with moving boobs according to the accellerometer to have access to the phone. This can be done with the aid of DRM16:32
RST38hSpeed: Can't16:33
X-FadeSpeedEvil: No, that is done with platform security.16:33
RST38hSpeed: All DRM can do is prevent you form fondling those boobs16:33
ptlStskeeps: I know, it shares a lot with standard security, it overlaps indeed. But the bad part is what it is used for, and it's for limitting you, not your software.16:33
X-FadeSpeedEvil: Not drm.16:33
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Stskeepsptl: of course, and if you're liberal, you choose a mode where the DRM doesn't work16:33
Stskeepsat least you have the choice16:33
Stskeepsthe challenge is to avoid anything but the DRM getting broken when you switch modes.16:33
Stskeepsand that's where it will be interesting to see nokia's policy on it16:34
ptlIf software providers bully the usability of the device for the DRM-only mode, you have no practical choice16:34
ptlthat's my point16:34
Stskeepsptl, agreed, policy is a discussion point16:34
ptlsoftware providers and their sheep users16:34
smaugtimeless_mbp: hah. Sorry, just now I'm busy enough with some other open source project :)16:35
timeless_mbpsmaug: yeah, i know the feeling16:35
Stskeepsptl: but either way, it's up to you if you want to let the application restrict your use further.16:35
timeless_mbpi'm currently adding more projects16:35
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timeless_mbpi'm poking hudson, symbian, xerces16:35
timeless_mbpi need to poke sqlite again16:35
timeless_mbpsdwilsh promised to help me16:35
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crashanddietimeless: xerces? Java or Cpp?16:35
Stskeepsptl: but yes, intended policy will be interesting to see.16:36
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Stskeepsi'd like to hear how shut down DRM mode truely is.16:36
timeless_mbpcrashanddie: why?16:36
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crashanddietimeless_mbp: I ported the initial version of xerces-cpp to Maemo16:37
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Stskeepsptl, but i think we can all agree on that the proposed security framework is not evil and it enables choice instead of taking it away from you unless you agree to16:37
crashanddietimeless_mbp: sent back a few bugfixes to mainstream so that it would compile (nearly) out of the box16:37
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Stskeeps(and that content providers/etc can choose to not let you have their content if it's not securely treated)16:38
timeless_mbpcrashanddie: i'd appreciate any help to get that committed16:38
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timeless_mbpcrashanddie: check out the patch size :)16:38
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crashanddieVDVsx: unban the guy later today, k?16:39
keesjso lack of focus for maemo on fosdem worries me. if maemo is not interesting for linux people we have a big problem. can we expect the interest to grow?16:40
Myrtticrashanddie: +b *!*jansimon@*$##fix_your_connection16:40
crashanddietimeless_mbp: page isn't loading -- wifi is crap16:40
VDVsxcrashanddie, there's a better way to ban in these situation16:40
VDVsxexactly what Myrtti said :)16:40
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crashanddieMyrtti: he's not having a problem with his connection, he's DCC'ing16:40
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crashanddieas soon as he's done downloading pr0n, he will be stable again16:41
lcukkeesj, lack of interest?16:41
lcukdid oyu see how many n900s there was?16:41
keesjdevice yes many16:41
lcukno actually crashanddie i meant "you"16:41
crashanddieoh, now that I think of it, I saw my first N900 in the wild here in Brisbane16:41
Myrtticrashanddie: that has happened with non-dccing people after the new ircd because they've joined too many channels without enough time between the /joins. it's not necessarily dcc.16:42
keesjand at my work i now have two collegues with devices16:42
Myrtti(or because their irc clients have been shite)16:42
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crashanddieMyrtti: will that send him to a specific channel?16:42
Myrttianyway, I need to leave for the weekend forced labour camp16:42
Myrtticrashanddie: yes, to the one after the $ sign16:42
crashanddieMyrtti: k16:43
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lcukkeesj, we did not have a focused booth tho, there were presentations given wrt to16:43
lcuki see what you mean now i think16:43
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lcukisnt linuxtag coming up again16:43
mgedminah, so that's why xchat delays every channel join on startup by about 1s16:43
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Myrttiwoops indeed16:44
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crashanddiesorry 'bout that16:44
keesjit's all because of qgil not comming16:44
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Myrttiyeah, now that he's banned from here, he stopped excess flooding himself out and his connection is stabler16:44
Myrttifrom looking at #mer16:45
crashanddieMyrtti: so maybe it was a DCC...16:45
Myrttior just because it was 537 nicks less or something16:46
MyrttiI'm not completely certain about the little details, but that is usually what happens, when they're blocked from a fairly big channel16:46
crashanddieI still have trouble seeing #maemo has a "fairly big channel16:47
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ptlStskeeps: I was away. Yes, I agree wholeheartedly on that16:48
cehtehuhm .. ovi maps is da suck ...16:49
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crashanddieI wonder if we could do a "No moaning day"16:49
cehtehtried to route for biking, choosen 'by foot' .. gives: cant calculate pedestrian routes longer than 50km16:49
crashanddiecehteh: which is reasonable?16:49
lcukcrashanddie, mmm 15th biggest out of 5000 channels and has more users than #freenode itself \o/ meh16:50
crashanddielcuk: serious? Wow16:50
nid0if you're biking, whats wrong with "by car"?16:50
lcukits got ~ same number of users as #c16:50
crashanddienid0: because he's a plonker who's afraid of driving on the motorway :P16:50
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lcukits hardly small and "fairly big channel" would seem to be accurate16:51
nid0im sure there must be an exclude motorways option, even ovi cant be that bad?16:51
crashanddiereminds me, when I was driving down from Australia Zoo the other day, I saw a biker go at roughly 50kph16:51
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nid0k the marketing emails from nokia about winning a trip to paris are getting annoying now :<16:52
cehtehnid0: bike routes differ much from car routes here16:52
nid0they know I own an n900, it's right next to the advert for the holiday :(16:52
crashanddiecehteh: I'm pretty sure bike routes differ much from pedestrian routes as well16:53
cehtehyeah .. neither matches16:53
cehtehbut pedestrian usually matches better16:53
crashanddiecehteh: unless you really want the nice gravel, the stairs and the angry pedestrians16:53
cehtehi hope mamemo mapper makes some progress :/16:53
cehtehdownloading maps and so on16:54
crashanddiecehteh: I'm not aware of any website that offers bike-trails16:54
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crashanddieat least, not in a google maps/queriable maps format16:54
crashanddiecehteh: btw, who needs a map to cycle, anyhoo?16:55
crashanddiecehteh: just get on yer bike and go, anywhere16:55
hrwcehteh: so far there is no usable navigation app for maemo516:55
cehtehwell .. in summer i sometimes bike overnight, having a map and gps is some good thing then16:55
crashanddielcuk: what do you think of the "no-moan day" idea? Achievable?16:56
cehtehand otherwise i sometimes choose bike to reach something ...16:56
lcukive been working, where was this discussed16:56
cehtehlike going to conferences or so16:56
crashanddiecehteh: even when I do overnights, I just use the GPS to see where I'm at, and which direction I need to follow. After that road signs or bicycle paths usually lead the way16:57
cehtehwell some time ago (before n900) i had only gps without maps16:57
crashanddieit's impossible to follow turn-by-turn on a bike anyway16:57
lcukcrashanddie, when the commonwelth games game to uk (i think), there were a cycling team from some random country16:57
cehtehthats a bit pita when you find yourself in a dead end at night16:57
lcukwho got cautioned for cycling up the motorway16:58
cehtehi dont want turn by turn16:58
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Veggenlcuk: heh, I remember when I got a new gps, and tested it in Paris, when my sister picked me up...16:59
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VeggenIt kept telling me "do a U-turn", which I relayted to my sister....16:59
* hrw wants TomTom like app for maemo5. same features I mean16:59
Veggen"No way", she said. This is correct.16:59
* jon1012 wants turn by turn on his n90016:59
Veggenwe got to where we were going - she was, after all, living there :) And then I checked the settings. Seems I had told it I was going by bike, so what it *did* tell me, was "turn around and get off the highway, you idiot!"17:00
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hrwjon1012: and voice selection and offline poi?17:00
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jon1012why not... but turn by turn would be a good start17:01
crashanddieVeggen: yeah, like once you're on the motorway, turning around in the middle of it is better than going further...17:01
hrwjon1012: maemo7 will have first attempt at it I heard17:01
doubleukayhm whiel we're on this topic - does anyone's n900 show that they're moving (~2km/h) when they're actually stationary?17:01
jon1012hrw: but maemo 7 wont run on my n90017:01
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hrwjon1012: who knows what future will bring17:02
nid0the speedo app on mine sometimes insists its doing 1mph while sitting on my desk, closing/reopening the app often clears that tho17:02
jon1012hrw: since nokia wants n900 buyers to fuck themselves with17:02
VDVsxwow maemo 7, what about maemo6 ? :D17:02
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Veggendoubleukay: not unusual.17:02
lcuknid0, desk on a gradient?17:02
lcuki made my gps tell me i was travelling at 70mph before now :)17:03
cehtehhehe .. i wonder what nokias plans are with maemo6 when all devs have an n900 :)17:03
lcukby spinning it round my head17:03
doubleukayVeggen: ok thanks for affirming17:03
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VeggenIt's common for GPSes, as they are not accurate enough, really. So it will have a different position than last calculation, which it interpret the only way it can: movement.17:03
doubleukayVeggen: don't they use doppler shift to measure speed?17:04
doubleukayI'm not sure how, but my recreational garmin puts me at zero speed when I'm stationary17:05
sandmanSoo.. there. Now i have ordered a N900 as the community looks wounderful. I have a question thugh. Is there or are it possible by script to close everything except telephone function to save battery? Or is there alredy a dist like that? Or is that something plausable to make?17:05
hrwdoubleukay: but garmin is in gps business since beginning. nokia is not so long17:05
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hrwcehteh: by 'all devs' you mean 'in-nokia devs', 'community devs' or 'all devs'?17:06
cehtehcommunity of course17:06
pupnik_sandman mu17:06
lcuksandman, its not ususally the idling daemons that cause the battery drain17:06
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lcukits high demand apps17:06
pupnik_"mu" unasks the question17:06
sandmanok, so there is little point making something like that?17:07
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RST38h"When will Symbian compile?"17:08
* RST38h is too tired to facepalm17:08
Myrtti"will it blend"17:08
Myrtti"YES IT BLENDS!"17:08
doubleukayahh.. I went to my balcony where it could see more birds, and now it shows 0.06m/s +- which is more reasonable17:08
cehtehsandman: only for daemons which behave badly .. but you dont want them in first place17:09
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hrwcehteh: why they would have to worry about them? users will buy next phone because marketing will be aggressive enough. some devs will follow crowd sooner or later17:09
cehtehusually things just go into wait for something to go and dont need power then17:09
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cehtehif you configure it that it polls email, rss or whatever it wakes up of course .. but thats you who wanted it this way17:09
hrwcehteh: nokia forgets about previous model when new one is released - check 770/n800(n810(we))/n90017:09
Veggen"balcony"...mmmm, I'm longing for the time when it's not filled with snow ;)17:10
crashanddieVeggen: I'd wish my balcony wasn't at 32 degrees17:10
cehtehhrw: lets wait and see, nokia may forget, but community may stay a bit longer with n900 because not everyone can afford a new device every half year17:10
sandmanok, so it's better to keep away from big apps. No point in making something that don't improve. Thanks for the insight ;)17:12
cehtehmy vague guesses would be that a predcessor to the n900 will be less interesting for geeks but more mainstream/waf17:12
cehtehsandman: not the size matters, programmers knowledge does17:13
sandmanhehe.. yeah and conky ;)17:13
cehtehconky east battery by itself17:13
cehtehtop -d 30017:14
sandmanyeah, you are true17:14
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tigertthe battery life with built in apps and just cellular online is pretty ok17:14
tigertbattery eye is a nice app17:15
tigertdraws a graph which shows consumption well17:15
sandmanahh.. there is a program. cool17:15
tigertlikely consumes a bit by itself of course17:15
pupnik_i see offers for bp-5l batterym from 7 to 30 euro.  what should a REAL nokia bp-5l cost?17:15
tigertbut it has a bg process that records stuff17:15
cehtehand battery eye draws battery by itself too .. but well .. looks ok so far17:15
RST38hpupnik: the more real, the more expensive =)17:16
RST38h30 euro is the most real of 'em all17:16
cehtehiirc i seen original for as cheap as 34 Eur17:16
tigertthe n900 built in sw is pretty well tuned for good batterylife17:16
RST38hThe 7 euro one is made of vapor and feces17:16
RST38h===> home17:16
hrwpupnik_: go to nokia store and check how much they want17:16
tigertits the active use that drops cpu from sleep mode that eats juice really fast :/17:17
pupnik_argh BL-5J17:17
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hrwI was surprised when saw that n900 battery is smaller then e66 one but has bigger capacity.17:17
tigertbatteryeye also makes a nice steeeeep slope when you keep 3G online :S17:17
* cehteh waits for a standard sized higher capacity battery17:18
nid0conversely, the n900 battery is about the same size as the e90 battery and with lower capacity :(17:18
doubleukaycehteh: o17:19
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doubleukaycehteh: I'm ordering that one, it should arrive in a few weeks17:19
cehtehdoubleukay: install battery-eye and report17:19
cehtehi bet it will be crap17:19
doubleukayoh wait, sorry it's the $20 one I'm ordering17:19
cehtehheh ok17:19
doubleukaywhich is still dubiously cheap17:19
cehtehmaybe the first charge gets 1200mah but these decay quite fast17:20
sandmanis there a list or something on app battery consumption? Like a recommended type of list17:21
cehtehwith a device like the n900 where you charge 1-2 times a day bad batteries will wear out really fast17:21
cehtehsandman: just dont care unless you have some really bad app, battery life is ok and if you disable 'normal' behaving apps the savings will be minute17:22
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X-Fadecehteh: more than once a day? What are you doing? :)17:22
cehtehwho cares if its 15hrs or 15:30 hrs of normal usage?17:23
pupnik_could a 11 euro bl-5j be real?17:23
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X-Fadepupnik_: probably not.17:23
cehtehX-Fade: when heavily playing, video, games, network and so on17:23
doubleukayis there a way to disabling 3.5G while leaving 3G enabled?17:23
X-Fadecehteh: Yeah, that is the 'first week' effect ;)17:24
pupnik_lots of fraudulent sellers on then17:24
X-Fadecehteh: First week the battery doesn't last because you try everyting.17:24
cehtehactually i keep mine in the charger when sitting stationary, not too good for the battery either, but i dont care and i have a full battery when leaving the house17:24
X-Fadecehteh: It actually discharges when green led is on.17:24
cehtehi know17:24
cehtehbesides this green led is yellow blinking here :P17:25
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cehtehmodded mci.ini17:25
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redwould be nice to be able to create a schedule for battery charging17:28
cehtehhehe .. want a 100's pack17:28
redso it would begin at 4am instead of being full at around 1am and keep discharging thru night :p17:28
redffs, gimme an alarm clock where I can't shut it off with random finger on screen17:29
redswipe to deactivate :)17:29
X-Fadered: turn device upside down.17:29
lcukred, math puzzles17:29
lcukor something similar17:29
redX-Fade: it's not enough17:30
nid0gimme an alarm clock I can change the monstrously annoying tune for :(17:30
redI already set 3 alarms per morning and just two days ago I slept too late again17:30
cehtehmhm maybe i should really buy such a cheap battery for home use and use the original when being on the road17:30
redgoogle alcometer for phone alarm17:30
lcukred, i have 3 alarm clocks17:30
X-Fadered: Don't put it next to your bed then.17:30
hrwnid0: maemo5 one is not enough?17:31
redonly place I can charge it in my bedroom is bedsid sadly17:31
lcuknid0, you can change the tone17:31
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lcukone of mine plays James: ring the bells17:31
lcukthe other is the default17:31
lcukred, do you set the alarms every morning, or have you a recurring one17:32
lcuknight ^17:32
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nid0ah handy, somehow id missed that option to set the tone when I last looked. no easy way to disable the vibrate though :(17:33
lcukthe vibrate is useful17:33
lcuki have been woken in the past by the virbate from it being in another room17:34
nid0the vibrate's far too powerful/piercing for me though, I hate waking up abruptly and the damn vibrate on the alarm does exactly that before the tone even starts playing17:34
redlcuk: I set them every night since my time to wake up differs 1-2 hours daily17:34
lcukred how curious17:34
redand my gf confirmed that she heard em ring and saw me shut them off and thought i was just snoozing :)17:34
lcukluckily tho it remembers all times17:34
redi have no recollection ^17:34
lcukand you just tick them17:34
cehtehnid0: you can configure it17:35
lcukred thats a reasonable suggestion17:35
cehteh /etc/mce/mce.ini17:35
nid0a method of doing so through the ui would be handy though, iv had a play with mce but havent found any confirmation on how to disable it entirely17:35
redwhat is a reasonable suggestion?17:35
redthe swipe to deactivate?17:35
nid0id just comment the line out but for all I know thatll brick the thing if it expects the value to be there17:35
redi think its quite a must :)17:35
cehtehjust remove it from the list17:35
redolder nokia touch screen phones had it too17:36
cehtehi disabled vibration for incoming emails completely17:36
lcukred, yeah - i have to swuint when i want to snooze it too17:36
nid0ah handy to know they are fully removable then17:36
lcukto make sure i dont accidentally the whole thing17:36
cehtehwell and some gui config app for mce would be nice17:36
redI'd actually like the idea of turning the phone upside down to go into snooze -- and swipe to deactivate alarm.17:37
lcuktoo easy to miss17:37
lcukif the cats knock my phone off in the night17:37
redIf the phone is face down, then turning it the correct way around would put another snooze17:37
lcukit might be facedown17:37
redit would start ringing no matter the position, but turning it on the opposite side while alarm plays would activate snooze17:37
nid0well, could easily work on turning it over, not having it facedown specifically17:37
jacekowskito be honest - the best idea of deactivate would be something requiring to read what it wants to do17:37
redtrue though17:38
redlike the google e-mail alcometer :)17:38
lcukred so you pick it up to check whether its the one you HAVE to get up at17:38
redsimple mathematical calculation17:38
jacekowskibecause otherwise you will just start sleeping again17:38
lcukand alarm disables17:38
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Stskeepslo javispedro17:38
redlcuk: you understood wrong, lemme rephrase17:38
lcukhi javispedro17:38
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lcukjacekowski, lol i read lots of things whilst sleeping17:39
lcukmissus said i talk about code :$17:39
redlcuk: Turning the phone 180 degrees would stop the alarm and activate snooze. To DISABLE the alarm you'd have to swipe the screen.17:39
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lcukred but sometimes i just want to see if its the one where i can snooze it, or put up with its noise for another couple of minutes17:39
jacekowskilcuk: but reading something and acting on it will require you to wake up properly17:39
lcukjacekowski, nahhh17:39
redHa :) oh well17:39
redthey could be preferences.17:39
lcukbest alarm ever is when tracy whispers in my ear "why is your computer making an odd noise"17:40
redJust saying I'd be happier any way -- if only shutting the alarm off wasn't this easy.17:40
jacekowskishow us naked photo of her17:40
lcukjust a minute17:40
cehteh  ...17:40
Guest_55926    hello  17:41
Guest_55926  anyone at home??17:41
ifreqyeh just arrived @home17:41
javispedrowazd: ping17:41
Guest_55926  why all you guys only use boring b & w fonts???17:42
crashanddieGuest_55926: because if you use colours you'll be banned faster than you can imagine?17:42
redrofl at that helicopter17:42
Guest_55926  is there any reason for this17:42
StskeepsGuest_55926: because colors make kittens cry17:42
Guest_55926  i see17:42
redbecause colors are for hilights and channel modes :)17:42
nid0colors + irc = reason for punching faces via tcp/ip to exist17:42
* Myrtti kisses mode +c17:43
redmode +C ftw :)17:43
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crashanddieanyone want to see purty colours?17:43
sivangso any news on phone switcher for Maemo ? :)17:43
crashanddie/mode -c?17:43
Guest_55926  crashanddie yes17:43
Guest_55926  can you see mine @ crashanddie17:43
Myrtticrashanddie: we've got enough trolls already17:43
sivangif not, what owuld be required to port it from symbian ?17:44
lcukjacekowski, its an old one, and a bit blurry but shes showing off her stuff, you can see right inside
sivangI am willing to do the work if I can get the source.17:44
crashanddieGuest_55926: how about you get on topic, and stop discussing colours?17:44
sivanglcuk: ohhh nice17:44
crashanddieGuest_55926: please don't PM me17:44
Myrttisivang: source of what?17:44
Myrttisource of phone switcher? OLOLOLOLOL17:45
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Myrttimore brandy17:45
sivangMyrtti: yeah17:45
Stskeepssivang: what's a phone switcher? :P17:45
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sivangStskeeps: something that takes all your stuff from another phone and merges it in an intelligent way to the new one.17:45
sivangStskeeps: very cool gizmo to work with 2 or n Symbianish boxes17:45
* Myrtti has heard of this new thing called syncml17:45
sivangsyncml ?17:46
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Guest_55926  :)17:46
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sivangMyrtti: I prefer silva palinka17:46
doubleukaylcuk: did you gut the computer on the left for its optical drives? ;)17:46
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Guest_55926ACTION  hey u forgot me lol17:46
crashanddieanyone have any objections for the removal?17:47
lcukdoubleukay, that was ancient actually, afaik i had to do a double bypass operation for its FLOPPY drive!17:47
Guest_55926  no17:47
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Guest_55926  is ok by me too :)17:47
crashanddiefair enough, if you're asking for it17:47
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sivangthis time he saw it coming17:47
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Guest_55926  lol17:48
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sivangban them and that's it17:48
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Guest_55926  he heee17:48
X-Fadecrashanddie: go for it.17:48
Guest_55926  lol17:48
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Myrtticrashanddie: what client are you using?17:49
crashanddiea fail client17:49
villagercrashanddie: your first ban said 55 instead of 559....17:49
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Myrtticrashanddie: xchat, irssi?17:49
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crashanddieno colloquy17:50
crashanddiebut I'm about to change17:50
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Myrttiright, failclient then17:50
crashanddiewill take care of it tomorrow17:50
sivangnbody ever uses IRSSI anymore ?17:50
crashanddieMyrtti: it works for just talking, not channel management17:50
X-Fadecrashanddie: Isn't it tomorrow already there? :)17:50
crashanddieX-Fade: well, 2AM, yeah17:50
* lcuk giggles @ lbt17:50
crashanddieanyway, cyas17:50
Myrtticrashanddie: your slip is showing though17:51
Myrtticrashanddie: are you going to leave it like that?17:51
X-Fadedrop the ops though ;)17:51
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crashanddieyeah, I'll disconnect in a second, later17:51
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Myrttisivang: have used since 2002 and see no reason to use others17:53
X-Fadesivang: irrsi works fine for me.17:53
MyrttiI should update the themes I've got at irssi/themes17:54
pupnik_Nokia-N900-51-1:~# mv /usr/share/tutorial-applet/ /opt/ && ln -s /opt/tutorial-applet /usr/share/tutorial-applet17:54
pupnik_Myrtti: add espeak support to irssi17:54
Myrttipupnik_: sorry, I do only themes and alias packs17:54
pupnik_boo :)17:55
ptlsivang: I use it17:55
javispedromoo pupnik17:55
lcukpupnik, have a look at this:
pupnik_lcuk: away from pc - you are working on a list of things that can be safely moved?17:57
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javispedroseems so.17:58
lcukyes, and an extra par of eyes on things might be good17:58
Stskeepsexcellent, the DRM thread is turning into a GPLv3 discussion17:58
lcukthat project is just first test17:58
lcukive got it on my machines :)17:58
MyrttiStskeeps: wonderful ;-)17:58
lcukconf file has a list17:58
MyrttiStskeeps: zealots about that I can go and laugh about?17:58
StskeepsMyrtti: not yet, but i'm preparing popcorn17:58
* Myrtti brings the booze17:58
pupnik_i cannot safely test due to cracked usb connector17:58
javispedroI would just gzip some stuff into the ubifs that after a reflash would be expanded to /opt17:59
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hrwlcuk: idea is nice - how much space you got?17:59
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javispedrocracked usb connector :S18:00
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javispedrowell, mine's now without a functional left speaker and with the keyboard slighlty cracked. I can't really say it's a well-built device.18:01
lcukhrw quite a lot i think that gained me about 25mb, it was a few weeks ago and ive had lots in head since,  mvo has started looking at a similar method for the default optify18:01
pupnik_howd you break the keyboard?18:01
javispedropupnik: I didn't. A Nokia care employee did :(18:01
hrwlcuk: add /var/cache/apt/ and /var/lib/apt/ to the list18:01
hrwlcuk: /var/lib/apt/ is 25MB here18:02
sivangcool, so is it only for maemo or is it croos platform symbian/linux ?18:02
hrwbut I have it on /home/user/MyDocs/.apt/var-lib-apt/18:02
lcuki think those are catered for themselves, or should be.  hrw the idea is its kinda configured at the moment for investigation18:02
lcuktheres a load more folkders that could potentially be done18:03
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X-Fadehrw: That will help in space, but also slow it down a bit.18:03
hrwX-Fade: how often you install apps?18:03
X-Fadehrw: Well, I'm a special case ;) But just saying.18:04
javispedrobtw X-Fade, did you look at ?18:04
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javispedroI don't know why it thinks maemo-installer-utils is missing :S18:05
X-Fadejavispedro: Can you point me to the package which should provide it?18:05
DocScrutinizerX-Fade: (slow down) are there any semi-official resilts on speed difference between NAND and eMMC?18:05
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: Yes18:05
DocScrutinizerX-Fade: any pointer to toss over?=18:05
X-FadeDocScrutinizer: That and it reads from compressed fs vs noncompressed.18:06
javispedroDocScrutinizer: on tmo someone ran bonnie++18:06
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X-Fadejavispedro: compressed vs non-compressed may give more difference.18:06
X-Fadejavispedro: As these repo files compress quite well.18:07
javispedroX-Fade: agreed18:07
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DocScrutinizerjavispedro: hmm maybe that's sufficient for google. thanks18:07
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wazdjavispedro: PONG18:07
wazdcaps :(18:08
javispedrowazd: (reading logs) vulture's eye for diablo should install to internal card (/media/mmc2) by default18:08
pupnik_X-Fade: any hope to speedup the apt-worker or reduce how often HAM calls it?18:08
X-Fadepupnik_: Don't look at me.18:08
wazdjavispedro: well, it says that it's out of the memory :(18:08
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javispedrowazd: ouch. Can you install it frm apt-get? Maybe this is the app mgr free space check.18:09
wazdjavispedro: no, actually it starts installation and then cancels it18:10
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hrwbye all18:13
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wizkoderhy everybody18:13
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wizkoderJust got the graphical "hello world" running. I am happy :-)18:13
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* sivang high fives wizkoder 18:15
sivangwizkoder: GTK / py ?18:15
wizkoderYes, the gtk one18:15
X-Fadejavispedro: provides is stored correctly, need to find out why it isn't found/used.18:16
wizkoderHeard its a pain in the ass to deplay python based programs18:16
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javispedroX-Fade: I can file a bug if you want to leave it for later18:17
javispedroX-Fade: fwiw, the dependency is also a Pre-Dependency. (as suggested by the packaging guide!)18:17
X-Fadejavispedro: Yeah, please do so. It seems to be bug I need to trace, not an easy fix.18:17
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javispedrowazd: I've just installed it on my recently-reflashed N810 and it installs to /media/mmc2 (no symlinks; the package unpacks directly to the card) -- on / it just puts a 2MiB binary.18:20
javispedroouch, he's away18:20
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mtnbkranyone know of any work being done on allowing different notification sounds depending on who the SMS (or IM) is from?   I'd LOVE to know if the incoming SMS I am getting is from my monitoring server (and is important) or just a text from a friend without having to actually check18:27
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mashiaramtnkbr you could make a simple dbus listener in python that recognized your network monitoring messages (all sms/im/etc are handled via telepathy dbus) and plays awoogaawooga sounds18:29
mashiarain addition to the default notification...18:29
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jacekowskii've seen nagios thingy for n90018:30
X-Fademashiara: There is a nagios widget aswell.18:30
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X-Fademtnbkr: ^^18:30
jacekowskiso it contacts nagios on server and gets all important informations out of it18:31
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mtnbkrmashiara: Hmmm... Not a python programmer :(   Maybe I can get my programmer friend to step away from ruby long enough to code something for my N900 in python. :)18:34
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RST38hKobo Deluxe is in Extras... YEAAAAH!18:35
mashiaraalso if your network monitoring is nagios (or nagios based, many are) see Xfades comment18:35
Corsacwhat's kobo deluxe?18:35
mtnbkrjacekowski: I am using Xymon (used to be hobbit) and I am currently just sending customized emals alerts from a script to (or whatever that address is)18:35
mgedminan addictive game18:35
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RST38hCorsac: open source version of Bosconian18:36
dl9pfcrashanddie: whats the issue ?18:36
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mashiaramtnbkr: python is easy if you have any idea of how to program OO languages18:38
CorsacRST38h: I don't know bosconian either, tbh :)18:39
villagerpython can also be used as a procedural language, if you don't like OO... but that might lose some of its power18:40
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mtnbkrmashiara: Time is my main issue.  last "programming" I ever did was Turbo ascal in '89-'90 thn a little C++, and now just bash shell scritps etc. :)18:40
RST38hCorsac: google.18:40
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vanadismobileis there any application like dataplan monitor, just for wlan?18:42
mashiaramtnbkr: well starting with python is easy too :) the DBUS itself is rather simple and I would suppose telepathy has better documentation than IcD2 (for which I basically had to reverse engineer the working way to achieve certain things)18:42
mashiaraIcD2 = Internet-connection Daemon (version 2)18:43
villageryou're supposed to use python-conic to access icd218:43
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villagerof course I didn't because python-conic didn't actually work, maybe they've fixed it though18:43
mashiaraold habits dies hard18:43
mashiaraused icd1 via dbus too (on n770,n8x0)18:44
villagerI just looked at the libconic sources to figure out what to do though18:44
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mashiaraalso the dbus approach works, after you figure out that the documentation is subtly wrong in a few places18:45
mashiaraand the interface in general has weird C-isms in it18:45
mashiarapassing connection names as ByteArrays, null-terminitated even18:46
mashiaraWTF is wrong with dbus.String ?18:46
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RST38hIs extras-development screwed up again?18:49
ShadowJKisn't it always?18:49
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RST38hWell, it has got its good days and bad days18:49
X-FadeRST38h: What's up?18:49
RST38hX-Fade: like always, fails to refresh index18:49
* RST38h will get the exact message in a moment18:50
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X-FadeRST38h: I don't see a problem?18:51
RST38hX-Fade: It got scared of you and refreshed properly this time =)18:51
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RST38hAre you wearing a screwdriver in your pocket? =)18:52
Toba_or are you just happy to see me18:52
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DocScrutinizerRST38h: nah, that's me ;-)18:53
RST38hhmmm... kobo does not start with an icon18:55
RST38hand it seems to hang from the command line =(18:56
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Shapeshifterhow can I copy text in x-terminal and then paste it in vim? without middleclick or shift-insert Im clueless19:09
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mgedminShapeshifter, try "+p or "*p in vim19:11
X-FadeShapeshifter: click on arrow icon, select text, click on top to copy and later paste?19:11
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Shapeshifterah i didnt know about the top menu, thanks19:12
inzMilo, feeling helpful?-)19:12
inzMilo, :0dG is of course the real vi way19:13
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inzErm, :0 of course requires enter19:13
satmd:0 :)19:13
Milo-ggdG should be enough19:13
inzYeah, but gg is vim specific ;)19:14
Milo-but you might have to do ggdG$19:14
Milo-vi is weak19:14
Milo-vim is nice19:14
Milo-I am hopeless with vi19:15
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inzMilo, so you're weak, no vi ;)19:15
inzI actually suck with vi too, but I think that spending some (quality ;) time with vi would make one more efficient19:16
Milo-I was introduced to vim before vi, so I learnt to use vim19:16
inzIn vim it's too easy to use inefficient things ;)19:16
lbtvim is a kind of poisonous bleach liquid here in the UK...19:17
Milo-the host which I used had alias vi="vim"19:17
lbtsounds reasonable19:17
Myrttilbt: not cif?19:17
w00tlbt: how dare you19:17
lbtmy undersink cupboard is quite old :D19:17
derfI think if you run vim as vi, it starts vim in vi-compatibility mode.19:17
w00tnobody insults my vim, and lives19:17
* lbt never logs in as nobody19:18
lbtbut he might now :)19:18
lbtRST38h: never mind, size isn't supposed to matter19:19
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* lbt looks at his rather splendid emacs and smirks19:19
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nezsup #maemo19:20
lbtnez: just emacs vs vi again19:20
RST38hemacs is dangerous19:20
lbtso is gcc19:21
nezvi is the one true editor (TM)19:21
RST38hit uses AI language and may change your code while you are not watching19:21
ifreqthere shall be no else19:21
lbtRST38h: for the better19:21
RST38hnez: you mean, ed does not satisfy you?19:21
derfImpossible. RST38h's code is perfect.19:21
lbtemacs is running in the bg19:21
tripzeroed is the defacto editor19:22
RST38hat least, it is better than some weird ai can ever make it =019:22
nezactually I think we can all agree that nano is better than all other editors </sarcasm>19:22
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derfI've never actually read any of your code.19:22
nezRST38h: I prefer to just cat my code directly into the compiler19:22
* RST38h agrees with nez19:22
mgedminfor values of "all other editors" being equal to "pico"19:22
derfOr joe.19:22
RST38hnano is even better than pico!19:22
mgedminor notepad19:22
lbtdamn mgedmin beat me19:22
tripzeroreal mean edit by physically manipulating the heads on the magnetic storage drive.  only girls use editors19:22
RST38hjoe is weird. tried using it but never could get used to it19:23
neznotepad doesn't even interpret the unix linebreaks19:23
mgedmintripzero, oh no, you set up the scene for the emacs camp to pull out M-x butterfly again!19:23
villagerI use joe19:23
lbtmy emacs is already flapping19:23
tripzerovillager, i use jo-mamma19:23
* mgedmin wonders if there's anybody on this channel who hasn't seen yet19:23
villagerjoe is probably easier to get used to if you've ever used that ancient ms-dos word processor, wordstar19:24
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* mgedmin once wrote his own advanced MS-DOS text editor19:25
* mgedmin later discovered vim and never went back19:25
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RST38hmgedmin: I am sure the first guy in that xkcd strip was continuing typing away in nano all that time =)19:27
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nezvim > vi19:28
nez[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D19:28 irc is being weird19:28
mgedminis that what vi prints when you hold down the left arrow key?19:28
nezmgedmin: yeah19:28
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nezI wonder if there is an IRC plugin for emacs19:30
villagerI bet it is a favorite extreme sport to type your name into vi in command mode19:30
lbtof course19:30
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SpeedEvilI just get 'an'19:30
nezSpeedEvil: is your name... ian?19:31
frals~curse MMS19:31
infobotMay you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, MMS !19:31
nezfrals: not as bad as being a Window ME admin19:32
nez~wtf afaik19:33
infobotAFAIK: as far as I know19:33
nezinfobot: sweet19:33
infobotmethinks sweet is a great girl?19:33
tripzeroinfobot: lick19:34
mgedminlevel 45 in kobodeluxe is hard...19:35
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SpeedEvilnez: indeed.19:37
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RST38hmgedmin: can you start it from the app launcher?19:40
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mgedminno, playing it on my laptop19:40
RST38hoh ok19:40
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LuciusMarehi, the xterm cant be set to width of "standard" 80, only to 79, is it known?19:40
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Shapeshiftercan I get the gprs transfer counter numbers from the commandline?19:43
cehtehthere is *some* api for that .. maybe dbus19:44
mgedminShapeshifter, you're right!  I never noticed!19:44
mgedminbut if you shrink the font you can get e.g. 98 columns19:44
mashiarashepshifter "ifconfig grps0" ?19:45
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mgedminought to be enough for everybody19:45
Shapeshiftermashiara: nah, ifconfig doesnt provide the info19:45
fralsShapeshifter: theres a gconf key for that, dunno exact path thou19:46
Shapeshifterfrals: thanks19:46
fralsif you check the source of personal-data-monitor you should be able to find it19:46
cehtehShapeshifter: there is this "Data Plan Monitor" app .. use the source luke19:46
mashiarayou mean total or sesison counts ?19:46
fralsor data plan monitor or what the name is ;)19:46
Shapeshiftermashiara: total for a month19:46
* mashiara was thinking of the byte counts for the session...19:46
cehtehyeah i dont know the exact name either19:46
Shapeshifteryeah ill look at the source19:46
mashiara /system/osso/connectivity/network_type/GPRS/gprs_rx_bytes19:47
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mashiara /system/osso/connectivity/network_type/GPRS/gprs_tx_bytes19:47
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* mashiara has a full XML dump of his gconf tree always at hand19:48
mashiarafastest way to locate key names if you have ideas of what to search for19:48
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Shapeshiftermashiara: thanks :)19:49
mashiarabe aware though that I have no idea if/when these keys are reset19:49
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RST38hOMG, they did release Barbie the Computer Engineer19:54
* RST38h will have nightmares now19:54
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Lumpio-Can I disable automatic mail fetching for a certain account?20:01
Lumpio-I have a few accounts for important mail and then some for less-than-important mail20:02
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Lumpio-I'd like to get notifications for the important mail, but having my phone go off everytime someone posts on a mailing list is a bit excessive20:02
pupnik_multiple accounts dude20:03
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Lumpio-...I have multiple accounts20:04
Lumpio-But I can't really find a way to configure notification/fetch settings separately for each account20:04
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Lumpio-At least from the GUI, is it hidden away in some file? The documentation for the built-in apps tends to be somewhat scarce20:05
Shapeshifterfunny, dbus-send --help doesn't work20:06
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pupnik_Lumpio-: send bugreports to a webmail then20:16
Lumpio-So... I guess there's no way to use the built-in mail stuff with this20:17
Lumpio-Luckily my not-so-important account is gmail, so I guess I could use the browser for it20:17
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sandmanShapeshifter: but man dbus-send works?20:27
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moo__nice someone seems to be working on quassel port.20:31
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* GeneralAntilles bangs head on desk @ Joiku.20:48
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GeneralAntillesAll these damn Symbian developers.20:50
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RST38hWhat about them? Refuse to die?20:55
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GeneralAntillesRST38h, they keep opening their own damn repos.20:56
GeneralAntillesIt's the bad old days all over again.20:56
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pupnik_repos? repos? tar xzvf!21:07
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GeneralAntillesX-Fade, I expect we'll be needing to revive that wiki page. . . .21:08
MohammadAGis there any way to make a .deb file that copies certain files to /opt/<dir>?21:12
RST38hGeneral: Well, the Extras promotions are still kafkian hell, so I cannot blame them21:12
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* RST38h finally found how to configure snap-to-grid feature in hildon desktop21:14
RST38hThe step of 10 pixels seems to work the best (default is 4)21:14
mashiaraMohammedAG: sure, do it in postinstall21:14
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dracflamlocRST38h, how?21:21
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GeneralAntillesRST38h, they didn't even attempt, it.21:27
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mashiaraof course it still is very much beta and can cause device reboots etc21:28
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mashiarabut (as I noted in the thread) doesn't extras require source packages ?21:29
mashiarafor not using Ovi they have no excuse once the thing is stable enough to pass QA21:29
GeneralAntillesmashiara, only free.21:29
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mashiaraah ok, for some reason I was under the mistaken impression that extras would be the "hippie haven" and binary-only needs to go through Ovi21:31
Stskeepsnah, we have non-free21:31
GeneralAntillesWe'd just be shooting ourselves in the foot since Ovi charges crazy fees for distribution21:31
GeneralAntillesbesides, Ovi is a very recent invention21:31
GeneralAntillesExtras has been around since the 770.21:31
RST38hGeneral: Dont forget Maemo Select too21:32
GeneralAntillesRST38h, that's not actually a repository.21:32
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ShadowJKNew users generally use and don't know about extras :/21:33
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GeneralAntillesShadowJK, it's enabled out of the box.21:33
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mashiaraAlso has these nice big green buttons pointing to the .install files21:34
RST38hHmm...once in a while, Gizmodo publishes something useful21:34
RST38hGeneral: Yea, but a distribution channel still21:35
GeneralAntillesRST38h, it's a web portal.21:35
GeneralAntillesWeird, Darwinia is on 360 Arcade.21:35
RST38hGeneral: So is Downloads :)21:35
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RST38hAnd...well...Ovi too :)21:35
ShadowJKGeneralAntilles, which works if they know about app manager :)21:35
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ShadowJKMaemo Select has its place21:36
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GeneralAntillesRST38h, Ovi is a repository.21:36
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medoanyone here know anything aout a video calling app?21:40
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ptldoes anyone know what file do I edit in busybox for setting up shell environment variables? like .bashrc in bash21:55
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dracflamlocRST38h, how did you get the snap to grid configured?21:58
RST38hthere is an ini file21:59
ptlStskeeps: I tried .profile and it worked, but I'd prefer something like .ashrc... anyway there is a directory .profiled that has some stuff in it, like custom.ini, do you know what they're for? they're full of #'s22:00
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Stskeepsptl: see how busybox does it.. but .profile is a good bet22:00
ptlyes, .profile worked22:01
ptlI googled it...22:01
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ptlnow let's install QuakeIII...22:04
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MohammadAGwhat's the best site for uploads?22:05
MohammadAGWanted to upload the modified source for an app22:05
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RST38hMohammad: YouTube! =)22:11
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pwnguinok, so here's a fun problem22:47
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pwnguini recorded things with recaller22:48
pwnguinbut they're too quiet22:48
pwnguinit stores in .aac and i cant for the life of me get any linux tools to handle it properly22:49
ptlwhat do you mean by too quiet?22:49
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pwnguinits quiet. i can hear the speaker barely22:49
ptlI'll try it myself sometime22:50
pwnguinwell this was an adhoc unintended use22:50
pwnguinsomeone was giving a LUG lecture22:51
pwnguinso i wanted to audio record it.22:51
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ptlbut isn't it meant to record phone conversations?22:51
ptlor is it a general audio recorder?22:51
pwnguinit just records what's on th emic22:51
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pwnguinand other stuff probably22:52
ptlbut that said, it will not record the other people talking?22:52
pwnguinim sure it records the remote party if you have one22:52
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satmdthe terminal should allow "alsamixer -c0"22:54
pupnik_government is the bigmouth idiots from your high-school student council22:54
satmdyou can control volumes there (more detailed as on the gui)22:54
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bigonI've a bug to report against libcurl22:57
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bigonwich component is that?22:57
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mashiarabigon in maemo bugzilla ?22:59
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ptllibcurl? I use libcurl in my ubuntu23:00
ptlit's nice to program with it23:00
mashiarasystem software I would think23:00
bigonI've installed syncevolution on my n900 and it fails to connect because of the hostname of my server has AAAA records23:00
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mashiarahowever the good question is if libcurl is shipping with the maemo platform or not23:01
mashiara(it's likely that it is, but not impossible that it isn't)23:02
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mashiaraand if it's not part of the default package then you should probably file the bug against syncevolution directly and ask that they link against a libcurl that has your bug fixed23:02
satmdI wonder if there's a workaround23:03
mashiaraif the latest libcurl itself still has this bug I recommend filing it upstream and then adding a maemo enhancement pointing to the upstream bug basically saying "when this is fixed please get it downstream asap"23:03
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bigonIt will be for tomorrow then23:05
mashiaraor you could ask the syncevolution guys for their opinion23:05
bigondoes anybody know the guy how made the port?23:05
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satmdtry adding ipv4 = 1 to ~/.curlrc23:06
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hardakergrrr....  scratchbox failing to compile against libraries already available.23:07
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bigonsatmd: thx23:07
bigonbut that still a bug :)23:07
mashiarathough tuning the config should be easy in postinstall23:08
* satmd prefers getting ipv6 because23:08
mashiara -> -> email address can be found23:08
satmd.. my guess is that curl was built with ipv6 support, but the adress family is not (yet?) supported on maemo23:09
bigonsatmd: I would prefere Ipv6 support too :)23:09
satmdbigon: but since connectivity tools are not ready for this yet, that'll be a mid-term goal at best23:09
satmdat least to see it builtin23:10
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bigonsatmd: so what should I do? contact syncevolution guys?23:10
satmdno, I'd rather blame the curl build itself23:11
satmdpackaging/build mistake23:11
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satmd$ LANG=C LC_ALL=C curl -v23:13
bigonipv4=1 in .curlrc doesn't seems to work23:13
satmd*   Trying 2001:200:0:8002:203:47ff:fea5:3085... Network is unreachable23:13
satmd*   Trying connected23:13
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bigonI blamed curl because of
satmdthat's the rfc defined behaviour on systems with correct stacks23:13
satmdcan you retry my test above?23:14
satmdon the n900?23:14
jacekowskii've got problem with FM transmitter in N90023:15
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jacekowskibasicaly i have problem finding any free frequency in UK23:15
bigonmmm only the lib on my n900 not the exec23:15
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bigonwell and of course on scratchbox it work because Ive ipv6 connectivity23:19
bigonwell it will be for tomorrow23:19
satmdsyncevolution on the terminal... any messages of use?23:20
bigonthe same than here : "CurlTransport Failure: couldn't connect to host"23:20
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bigonI really need to go now23:21
satmdwell, ok, see you later23:22
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satmdthe site just confirms my assumptions23:23
satmdipv6-build on non-ipv6 kernel23:24
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ml-mobilethis is why I like how iTunes maintains a database of file paths and metadata23:39
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* ml-mobile waits for the media player to settle down23:39
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frals~curse MMS23:44
infobotMay the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, MMS !23:44
dracflamlocwhat formats for ringtones does the n900 support23:47
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jacekowskiall of them23:47
jacekowskiand if it doesn't then you can always write some code for it23:47
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ShadowJKit does not support "all of them"23:52
dracflamlocmp3? ogg?23:52
ShadowJKmp3 and possibly ogg23:52
ShadowJKno midi, no polyphonic23:52
ShadowJKno per-caller ringtones23:53
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dracflamloceh i never used those23:59
dracflamlocbut i do like midi ringtones23:59

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