IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2009-12-05

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DocScrutinizer-8hmm, ok. thought I might get away without00:00
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crashanddiehcarrega: sync to gmail, gmail to n90000:00
hcarregaok sir00:00
crashanddiehcarrega: haven't tried it yet00:00
hcarregagonna try00:00
Arkenoicrashanddie, and pray for it not to fail ;-)00:00
crashanddiehcarrega: just got my mac yesterday, but that would be my expected way to do it00:00
BernardVok.. going to flash... pray for me :P00:01
hcarregai got my n900 today mac i have for some years00:01
crashanddieArkenoi: in order to have my corporate agenda to sync with linkedin, I have exchange sync with the blackberry, which syncs with the calendar with gmail, gmail with linkedin, linkedin with tripit00:01
DocScrutinizer-8Stskeeps: aah better. thnx00:02
_JP_crashanddie: or export as CSV and import to N900 works too00:02
meceI have a question. samba. Does it do the samba painlessly? Talking N900 here.00:02
crashanddie_JP_: that's export/import, not sync00:02
Stskeepsmece: it was removed in maemo500:03
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_JP_crashanddie: good point, didnt read you needed sync  ;)00:03
Stskeepsmece: still works with 3rd party probably00:03
Arkenoicrashanddie, :-)) the part which is likely to fail is n900<->google :-(00:03
crashanddieArkenoi: works fine here00:03
Arkenoias there is no direct way, just activesync00:03
Arkenoiand you will probably lose some contact fields00:04
crashanddiehave had contact sync working since I got the device a few months ago now00:04
meceStskeeps, why would it be removed? The sense that makes... is not!00:04
Arkenoisome people report they had sip id's lost from addressbook00:05
Dantonicis xhat available in extras testing?00:05
crashanddieDantonic: no00:05
crashanddiestill in devel00:05
Dantonicoh its in devel00:05
Dantonicanyone using it?00:05
Dantonichow is it?00:05
DocScrutinizer-8odin_: definitley I don't see same line in dmesg of N900 when echo host>foo as I do on N81000:05
Dantonicany issues?00:05
crashanddieDantonic: it crashes when you try to save settings00:05
Stskeepsmece: stl flly accessible with kernel and smblclient and all that stuff..00:05
arachnistDantonic: crashes when you exit preferences00:05
DocScrutinizer-8crashanddie: ^00:05
arachnistDantonic: crashes when opening links00:05
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konttoriDantonic: xchat is pretty good00:05
Dantonicwho's working on it?00:06
konttorisomebody should get it in shape and put to testing00:06
crashanddieDantonic: qwerty1200:06
crashanddieDocScrutinizer-8: yeah, we need to talk to the guy who wrote the app00:06
DocScrutinizer-8fix friggin segfault on xchat00:06
DocScrutinizer-8crashanddie: won't help00:06
Dantonicso is there a way to tell if apps are "optified" or not?00:06
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DantonicI assume a lot of them are just getting ported?00:07
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DocScrutinizer-8the sysfs node is there but  dead00:07
konttoriIf they are in extras, they are optified ;)00:07
crashanddieDocScrutinizer-8: no, I want to understand why he uploaded it if there's no use for it00:07
konttoriand optification is really really really important00:07
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DocScrutinizer-8crashanddie: heh, valid thought00:07
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konttoriSSU needs a lot of free space when the update is big00:07
konttoriwe have been fighting like mad for the past 2 weeks to make the space requirement somehow drop to sane level for the 'big' ssu update00:08
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* w00t still thinks that smaller updates (more frequently) would make just s much sense00:09
RST38hkonttori: any approximate date on the ssu release and what ww will it correspond to?00:09
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konttorican't say a day - even I'm not sure00:09
Dantonickonttori, is optification a difficult task?00:10
RST38hwork week00:10
konttorino it's not.00:10
RST38has in ww4200:10
konttorimore than that ;)00:10
Ceron^is liqbase available for n900, what repo is it in?00:10
konttoriliqbase is in extras-devel00:10
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odin_DocScrutinizer, ok ah well.... (on host mode usb)00:10
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Ceron^can i break my n900 if i allow extras-devel :(00:11
konttoriRST38h: so, read my quote more carefully. past two weeks like mad. tell you anything?00:11
konttori(that the madness is over is one thing)00:11
* w00t thinks it suggests soon00:11
RST38hall riiiight =)00:11
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konttoriwell, you guys have to understand that when something is over, there is still series of testing just to make sure, and certifications to make and so on.00:12
konttoriso, takes time00:12
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* mece understands the toil of making stuff work...00:13
w00tI certainly understand that, but I have no doubts that the process could be streamlined (or at least moved away from mssive updates to smaller updates)00:13
meceso how about that samba?00:13
w00tnight konttori00:13
* frals heads back to the wonderful world of JavaSE00:13
meceanyone has an idea how to get it working?00:13
thomastpanyone know if I can find .dsc files somewhere for mozilla's xulrunner maemo packages ?00:13
thomastpI'd like to get libmozjs so I can package couchdb00:13
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BernardVUPDATE: After flashing the same unsupported chip id00:14
BernardVthis sucks00:14
StskeepsBernardV: report bug, note down the imei somewhere00:15
BernardVDid a bug report00:15
povbot`Bug 6587: wl1251 won't start, unsupported chip id.00:15
Ceron^how to enable extras-devel00:16
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meceCeron^, are you sure you want to go there?00:17
Ceron^well i want to play with liqbase its stable right :l00:17
Ceron^and irssi installed00:17
meceCeron^, you could just dl the package and "dpkg -i" it00:17
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Ceron^that one i assume?00:19
mecewell just add catalogue in app manager. adress: Distribution: fremantle Components: free non-free00:19
odin_lol /usr/bin/eggtimer fails to start00:19
BernardVJust run irssi on a dedicated box and connect with ssh ;)00:20
meceCeron^, or that :D00:20
Ceron^i already do that :D00:20
Ceron^but i need irssi incase homebox fails00:20
Ceron^and i need to come here!00:20
Ceron^also liqbase is what im intrested in :p00:20
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Ceron^lcuk has been advertising his program for decades00:21
Ceron^time to see if its really any fun00:21
Ceron^how to make a shortcut on n900 desktop00:22
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Ceron^that has ssh -l username server.ip.com00:22
Ceron^im tierd to writing it all the time :D00:23
Ceron^i want my irssi open with one click!00:23
BernardVmake an alias in terminal00:23
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fnordianslipor edit .ssh/config00:24
BernardValias ceron='ssh -l ceron server.domain.ext'00:24
Ceron^still i need to open terminal and from there start the "irssi alias"00:24
Ceron^ok, so not possible to put custom links on desktop :P00:25
BernardVDon't know00:26
BernardVGot my phone today00:26
arachnistvim .ssh/config00:27
mecemaybe you could make a shortcut to an application, and then manually edit that shortcut to point at your desired command line00:27
arachnistHost ceron00:27
arachnistUser foo00:27
kalikianaCeron^, you cannot "easily" do it. but you can put .desktop files into /usr/share/applications/hildon if you know how to00:28
kalikianathe format is fairly simple00:28
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mecewtf is wrong with the interwebs today. Everything is slooow. Is it just me?00:31
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arachnistmece: it's just you00:31
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meceI knew it :(00:31
* lardman thinks lcuk's liq-irc with graphics sounds quite cool00:32
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lardmancrashanddie: re Mac book, is it pretty ;)00:32
lardmanderf: I'm afraid I don't currently know much about the dsp bridge interface, but am interested to learn and help if I can00:33
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Xisdibikarachnist: nah, its me too, im only getting 100-120kb/s here at work, i should be getting 400 kb/s00:34
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* w00t just found out his ISP was throttling the hell out of his connection (again) due to spotify, so he moved that to SSH tunnel and now everything is absolutely flying00:37
odinmodin on N900 (with xchat)00:37
BernardVnice odinm00:39
* Xisdibik keeps reading odinm as opium :/00:39
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lardmanlol, just built gnuplot only to find it's already in the repo00:40
* odinm takes another puff on his pipe00:40
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lardmanhow many people here have a2dp headsets?00:41
odin_a2dp ?00:41
lardmanam thinking of compiling a wiki page of caps00:41
lardman~google a2dp00:41
RST38hlardman: one here00:41
lardmanodin_: BT stereo music anyway00:41
arachnist <| lol00:41
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lardmanRST38h: It seems difficult to work out which support more than simply SBC, I was thinking of writing a little app to interogate the headsets and get people to paste the answer into the wiki00:42
Ceron^why does n900 whine about non authorisized ip when trying t00:42
Ceron^to use devle package00:42
lardmanam intereted in hacking some mp3 codec support into bluez a2dp00:42
RST38hlardman: most bt headphones support a2dp now00:43
RST38hlardman: how n900 handles those is a different subject though00:43
lardmanRST38h: yeah, but it's the codec used to transfer the data00:43
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odin_ah the URL handler doesn't work by defaukt... "!opera-remote" ?  what should maemo5 use ?00:43
lardmane.g. SBC is standard and required, mp3, atrac, apt-x, etc are possible00:43
XisdibikRST38h: for the noobies (me) whats A2DP :)00:44
lardmanodin_: mime handler?00:44
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odin_lardman, no to make another browser window spawn to a url... trying "browser"00:44
lardmanXisdibik: a BT profile which allows stereo music listening00:44
lardmanodin_: ah, ok00:44
Xisdibiklardman: ah thats the stereo listening geek talk ;) gotcha00:44
ds3you want A2DP00:44
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lardmanI have a2dp, I want something better than sbc00:45
odin_lardman, not that.. I just want to went a message to dbus to open a browser window..00:45
Ceron^why cant i use extras-devel00:46
lardmanodin_: ah ok00:46
odin_browser.launch  --help ....Segmentation fault  (not that!)00:46
lardmanodin_: take a look at web.c in maemo-barcode, there's some code in there to do that using dbus00:46
ds3are there cheap headphones that support anything besides SBC?00:46
odin_X-Osso-URI-Action-Open ??00:46
lardmands3: well that's why I wanted people to test what they have :)00:47
lardmanSony seem to do so, but the ones do too (at least some) and they are pretty cheap00:47
ds3lardman: donate a N900 and I'll test it against my battery of assorted cheap A2DP devices ;)00:47
ds3got at least 3 different ones00:47
lardmanI'll give it some thought....00:47
ds3all acquired for sub $2500:48
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lardmanwell I know one that does mp3 for £20, but thought some info gathering would be interesting too00:48
ds3in the case of the N series, MP3 would mean syncing up with the DSP, right?00:49
odin_what does /usr/sbin/ do ?00:49
* Arkenoi wonders if makers of bh902 headset are really humans00:49
Arkenoimust be elves or something00:49
lardmands3: no, would be a straight pass through00:49
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BernardVlardman: It's not a cheap one, but a good one: the sennheiser00:49
BernardVPXC 310 BT00:49
ds3lardman: so you just care about playing pre-encoded MP3s?00:49
lardmanArkenoi: do you need pointy ears to use it? ;)00:50
lardmands3: yes00:50
Arkenoilardman: looks like that00:50
ds3ah okay00:50
Arkenoiit does not fit regular human ear at all00:50
lardmands3: if you need to change encoding then Bluez already does that and encodes to sbc00:50
lardmanbut if your music is in mp3 form, why waste the cpu cycles and produce poorer quality sound, etc00:51
ds3someone of us prefer music in OGG/Vorbis format00:51
lardmanwell you're screwed I'm afraid00:51
lardmanunless someone decides to implement a vorbis decoder on the headphones00:51
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lardmanwhat's the bitrate?00:52
ds3either 128 or 25600:52
ds3nothing specatular00:52
lardmanthough actually the processing overhead is probably the big limiting factor here actually00:52
BernardVIf you have ogg support you can play flac if I'm correct00:52
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lardmanwell I'm just talking about hw which contains a decoder for given codecs00:53
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lardmanand those are sbc + optionally mp3, atrac, apt-x00:53
ds3I would nice to move those A2DP devices from the testing pile to the using pile00:53
lardmanI have mp3 music, so is of interest to me00:53
ds3tired of nearly choking myself on the headphone cords00:53
lardmands3: does it not work on an n8x0?00:53
ds3lardman: I decided against trying the A2DP hacks on the N80000:54
lardmanI had hoped to run the tremor -> sbc stuff all on the dsp, but tremor beat me00:54
lardmands3: well it can sound a bit odd, but is not too bad00:54
lardmanon n900 sounds pretty reasonable00:55
ds3lardman: it is the lack of integration that turned me off00:55
lardmanbut mp3 would be better imo00:55
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lardmands3: yeah00:55
ds3ideally, I want to be able to run Maemo mapper and have OGG/Vorbis playing over A2DP00:55
lardmanbut for music is not a big thing - switch headphones on and music comes thro, off and it's out of the speakers, etc00:55
lardmanmusic or instructions?00:56
ds3both ;)00:56
ds3auto muting during instructions00:56
ds3hence the desire for better integration00:56
lardmanwell if you can route via alsa you're ok ;)00:56
ds3the thing is the N800 chokes on music decoding AND maemo mapping (just tracking with GPS)00:57
ds3crossing my fingers that the OMAP3 will keep up00:57
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lardmanah, a bt issue perhaps00:58
ds3no, I was just trying it with a wired headphone and it chokes00:58
ds3maemo mapper lags behind and it resets00:58
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ds3if it matters I am using the maemo media player app00:59
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ds3(with the vorbis codec hack/addition)00:59
lardmantremor didn't take that much cpu iirc00:59
ds3but apparently maemo mapper did unless it was a memory thing01:00
lardmancould be a memory bandwidth issue perhaps..?01:00
ds3donno how I'd test that01:00
ds3I suppose I could rig up a Beagle board01:01
lardmanI ported sbc encoding to the dsp in the hope of lowering the cpu load to allow mplayer to play better movies, in fact it just locked the memory and managed 1fps01:01
ds3actually, now that Maemo5 is out, is there a Mer based on Maemo5 yet with all the A2DP integrations?01:01
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lardmands3: talk to Stskeeps01:02
ds3lardman: is stskeeps the project owner/leader?01:02
lardmanhe's a good chap01:03
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ds3*nod* just thought it was a #maemo thingie, didn't know there was an actual leader01:03
odin_any idea on microb DBus destination name ?01:03
pwnguinhmm. what's the difference between a flattened (device) tree and a list?01:03
lardmanodin_: did you look at my code?01:03
Stskeepsds3, we have whatever bluez jaunty has01:04
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odin_  (no files listed)01:04
ds3Stskeeps: so that means no integration?01:04
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lardmanStskeeps: what about the switching?01:04
ali1234a2dp is notoriously hard to get working on jaunty...01:04
lardmanodin_: svn01:04
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odin_ah yes link at bottom off page01:05
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AakashPatelDoes the bluetooth stack on the N900 support SPP protocal?01:06
Ceron^tobad spotify doesnt support maemo yet :(01:06
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lardmansorry, was trying to nick-complete01:07
lardmanAakashPatel: serial port, should do01:07
lardman~lart little netbook kbs01:07
* infobot shoots little netbook kbs in his sleep01:07
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SpeedEvilIt must - it supports bluetooth GPSs01:08
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AakashPatelawesome thanks lardman01:08
ali1234bluez "supports" everything under the sun. the difficulty is in getting a GUI to actually make use of it.01:09
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ali1234but you can always hack up a little pybluez script to do what you want01:09
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lardman~lart garage for being sooooo slooooooow01:10
* infobot slaps garage upside the head with a wet fish for being sooooo slooooooow01:10
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dmj7261I suspect more server needs to be directed toward garage and the other development oriented parts of maemo.org01:12
lardmanI use load_url, but there's another one iirc which overwrites the current url if a window is open01:12
lardmanlook at open_URL()01:12
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AakashPatelWhat's R&D mode for?01:13
Oli``Anybody know how to get an n900 showing up in banshee as a device I can copy music to? I know I can copy the files over manually but a) that sucks and b) it still sucks01:13
lardmandmj7261: more server for the whole lot I think01:13
lardmanon n900?01:13
dmj7261it's just *far* more noticeable anywhere outside talk.01:13
lardmanmakes your kb flash if there are misbehaving processes ;)01:14
lardmandmj7261: talk is on another server01:14
AakashPatelhaha really?01:14
dmj7261that would explain it.01:14
ali1234Oli``: it should "just work" with the banshee mass storage media player extension01:14
dmj7261I suspect that is going to get hammered as n900 becomes more popular01:15
ali1234Oli``: but it doesn't - i suspect the extension needs to be told that the n900 is a media player or something01:15
lardmanali1234: sorry, I don't know about it01:15
AakashPatelHow can I tell if the device is in R&D mode or not?01:15
lardmandoes the kb flash when the screen goes off?01:15
Oli``ali1234: f-spot (photo gallery software) is trying to take charge because nautilus thinks it has photos on it... It does, in fairness!01:15
ali1234Oli``: that happens because it sees the DCIM folder (probably)01:16
lardmanOli``: that annoys the hell out of me :)01:16
ali1234Oli``: but there's nothing silimar (that i know of) for media players01:16
AakashPatellardman, nope01:16
ali1234maybe if you put an mp3 on there banshee will twig :)01:16
odin_lardman, found it thanks but still no joy01:16
Oli``ali1234: I'll give it a shot01:16
lardmanAakashPatel: you're ok then; also it would give some info about the kernel, etc., at boot time01:16
ali1234if not, file a bug on banshee :)01:17
AakashPatelI see01:17
odin_lardman,  ha... load_url thats what I needed for: dbus-send --session --print-reply /com/nokia/osso_browser/request ""01:18
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lardmanah good :)01:18
AakashPatelwhere can I downlod the images taht factory n900's run?01:18
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RXrenesis8this thing is a lot smaller than I thought it would be. Everyone on the internet must have really small hands :P01:18
odin_lardman, there we go: load_url ""01:19
AakashPatelIs it at all dangerous to go into R&D mode? (sry for all the r&d questions lol)01:19
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lardmanAakashPatel: is this an n900?01:19
mgedminR&D mode could drain the battery faster, I've heard01:20
lardmanto answer, no. Why do you want r&d?01:20
Oli``Has anybody seen my Mp3 player? I can't find it >_<01:20
AakashPatelJust cuz I wanna check it out01:20
lardmandon't do it on n900, the flashing kb will drive you nad01:20
Oli``found it... call off the hounds01:20
Lorthirk`guys, take a look at this01:21
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lardmanmgedmin: yeah, with the kb flashing I imagine it would01:21
jebbajeb1I have the SDK up and running in Fedora 12 64bit x86_64.  Notes here:  ==Installing Maemo 5 SDK on Fedora 12 x86_64==01:21
povbot`Bug 6360: Headset problems01:21
AakashPatelI'll do it for a few mins :P01:21
jebbajeb1   rather01:21
Lorthirk`did i understand correctly?01:21
lardmanAakashPatel: hope you don't have epilepsy ;)01:21
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SpeedEvilWhere might I find powertop - apt-get install powertop comes up blank01:23
lardmanLorthirk: what does that even mean?01:23
greenflyisn't powertop written by Intel?01:23
Lorthirki am not hte one who posted the comment01:23
Lorthirk(i am the next one)01:23
Lorthirkit seems that this guy connected a dvd player to the n900 via the a/v cable01:24
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Lorthirkwondering himself that it didn't playback01:24
lardmanrotfl in fact01:24
ali1234er... no01:24
Ceron^what video player do you guys use on the n90001:25
Ceron^to watch series and stuff01:25
ali1234if you read it carefully, he's saying that when he plugs the a/v cable into his "dvd audi set" (which i take to mean surround system) - the sound keeps coming from the n900 and not the system01:25
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AakashPateloh see what you guys mean01:26
odin_is there such a SOCKS proxy service and library that allows for mobile connectivity roaming by keeping connections open even if the link between the clients and proxy breaks for a small amount of time?01:26
AakashPatelthe edge of the keyboard stays on even when the screen's off01:26
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odin_like WLAN <> GSM handovers?01:26
lardmanali1234: ah, I didn't read it well enough then01:26
ali1234i could be wrong, but that's the only logical intepretation :)01:27
Pavlovanyone know much about how apps start using the desktop files on maemo5?01:29
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Pavlovwe're having this problem where when we run from the desktop while already running we don't pop our window to the front01:29
Oli``ali1234: that worked beautifully btw01:29
lardmannot other than it's linked into the libosso stuff01:29
Pavlovbut works fine if i run from the command line :/01:29
Oli``ali1234: thanks01:29
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lardmanPavlov: dunno, sorry01:30
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Pavlovit sometimes works too, heh01:31
DocScrutinizerlardman: I see a shitload of *.launcher files01:32
DocScrutinizerno idea beyond that01:32
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DocScrutinizersorry s/ lardman / Pavlov01:33
ali1234Pavlov: to have your current running instance pop up when you start a .desktop launcher, you need to implement some dbus magic - or so i heard01:33
Pavlovali1234: hmm01:33
Pavlovwe've got code to look for running app and do the right thing, but not via dbus01:33
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toggles_wlardman: know anything about the motorola s805? i think i'm leaning towars them as they are usb charge where nokia's are pin01:34
Pavlovwonder what magic we'd need01:34
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lardmantoggles_w: afraid not, I have a pair of jabra bt320s01:35
Pavlovali1234: any idea where i'd even look?01:35
DocScrutinizerdbus-send osso-wm tofront myalterego?01:35
lardmanbut am thinking about getting some mp3 supporting ones01:35
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toggles_wlardman: i was hoping you could tell me if they were mp3 ;-)01:36
PavlovDocScrutinizer: mm01:36
gadgetoidfix bluetooth keyboard support kthnx01:36
toggles_weven though i really want ogg as well ;-)01:36
Pavlovi can definitely make our code send dbus commands01:36
ali1234Pavlov: no, sorry. javispedro told me this is one reason why i shouldn't write apps in raw X11 - because i have to handle that myself. apparently if you use higher level libs it's done for you? but i wouldn't know about that :)01:36
lardmantoggles_w: seems to be bloody hard to find out actually01:36
toggles_wyeah, no specs01:36
lardmantoggles_w: well they won't directly decode oggs no matter what01:36
ali1234Pavlov: i'd guess you need to listen for one from the system01:36
mikkov__RST38h: I found working source package for vulture's eye01:37
lardmanbut I was thinking about putting together a test binary to see what codecs are supported and asking people to put the info in the wiki01:37
Pavlovali1234: ah yes01:37
toggles_wlardman: so what the hell do you do with the dongle thing on you jabras? doesn't that piss you off?01:37
toggles_wyeah, i read the stuff in the scroll back about that01:37
Pavlovdbus-monitor is showing a Method "top_application" not being paid attention to01:37
lardmantoggles_w: snap it to my t-shirt01:37
lardmantbh I don't use them that much as the headphone quality is so much better01:38
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ali1234the n900 headphones are the only earbud type headphones i've ever used that don't constantly fall out of my ears01:39
ali1234they're great01:39
* w00t cannot stand in-ear headphones01:39
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gadgetoidhmm i havent touched the earbuds01:40
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lardmanhmm, I didn;t get any! ;01:40
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gadgetoidi war cans01:40
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gadgetoiderr wear01:40
lardmanmust try to stop hiting enter rather than some other char01:40
Macerlegend of the seeker reminds me of 30001:41
Macerthe way they fight01:41
gadgetoidif i lack punctuation its because none of the friggin  keys work on this bt keyboard01:41
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lardmanlol good excuse ;)01:41
gadgetoidgreat excuse    i dont even get caps01:41
gadgetoidthe or numbers01:42
gadgetoidthe n nine hundred is a huge step back from the eight hundred series in some respects01:42
gadgetoidthe stand is a joke01:43
Lorthirk'night pals01:43
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gadgetoidits like the creators never used an neightten01:44
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lardmannight Lorthirk01:45
lardmangadgetoid: stand is silly I agree01:46
gadgetoidi want someone to make a case with a built in stand01:46
ali1234gadgetoid: well, that's probably a good thing. the number one reason i hear why people don't buy a n810 is "it isn't a phone"01:46
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ali1234"i don't want to carry that *and* a phone too"01:47
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gadgetoidyes but theyre all noobs to be fair01:47
ali1234nope, actually they're all linux kernel hackers01:47
gadgetoidthis seems like its got a horrific identity crises01:47
n900evilHello peepski's!01:47
gadgetoidand crippling bluetooth input serves no purpose whatsoever01:47
gadgetoidunless they plan to sell their own external keyboard01:47
n900evil(irssi/dsl fail)01:48
ali1234gadgetoid: i doubt they that on purpose :)01:48
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lardmanis always hard to trade off tho, want something reasonably large to use as pda, but small to carry as phone01:48
n900evilgadgetoid: very broken01:48
gadgetoidali1234 you never can tell01:48
greenflygadgetoid: sounds like you really don't like it. does the retailer you bought it from have a good return policy?01:48
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gadgetoidi love it but i feel my pandora will get more use if it ever turns up01:48
n900evillardman: inflatable tevhnology to the rescue01:49
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greenflygadgetoid: heh, I'm on that waiting list as well01:49
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gadgetoidi bought it from nokia with a 30% discount01:49
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n900evilThe keyboard is not that bad.01:49
gadgetoidand i still have my n81001:49
gadgetoidyeah i should probably just put this bt one away01:50
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greenflymy problem is that I also have a blackberry for work01:50
n900evilgadgetoid: '' 50percent01:50
greenflyso when I switch between the two my instincts go to whichever keyboard I used last01:50
mgedmingadgetoid, during the (brief) use, have you noticed any repeating key problems?01:50
lardmann900evil: kb is good, better than n81001:50
mgedminwith my n800 the bt keyboard would randomly sometimes rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrepeat a key01:50
lardmanI want a Psion 5 sized pda though really for pda stuff01:51
gadgetoidnope mgedmin just most keys not working01:51
greenflymgedmin: I heard someone who had that problem only when they also did bluetooth tethering for internet01:51
ali1234lardman: netwalker01:51
luke-jrlardman: you mean too big for pockets/01:51
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luke-jryeah, netwalker XD01:52
luke-jrshould have Mer ported shortly01:52
gadgetoidi have a three sim too sigh01:52
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lardmanluke-jr: yeah too big for pockets is fine for pda, not for phone thp01:52
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luke-jrlardman: any idea how I can tell if Mer booted?01:52
luke-jrI dont' have video out01:52
lardmanno clue, sory01:53
lardmando you have serial output?01:53
n900evilI've considered a back holser for Netbook :)01:53
luke-jrin theory01:53
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luke-jrn900evil: that is an idea, but too easy for a thief?01:53
n900evilsome sort of rfid rimg01:54
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gadgetoidput the netbook under yer coat01:54
gadgetoidlike blade only with computers01:55
tigertali1234: n900 headphones are also amazingly non-tangling01:56
ali1234hmm i dont find that so much. you have the flat cable ones?01:56
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tigertthe wire wants to stay open01:56
tigerti have also koss sparkplug ones01:56
ali1234i find the rubbery coating is kind of sticky and tangles up a lot :(01:56
tigertand they end up in insane knots01:57
ali1234hmm true, maybe they're not as bad as others01:57
ali1234they still tangle tho01:57
tigertoh, i meant it doesnt get into  knots01:57
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tigertbad wording01:57
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* n900evi1 sighs.01:57
ali1234i guess the "stickyness" does stop it from tightening up01:58
ali1234thus preventing knots01:58
gadgetoidi have to tie the lead on my cans up and find a spare pocket to put it in01:58
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gadgetoidwhats the tv out like01:58
tigertits like tv :)01:59
tigertnot hd01:59
tigertvut still usefu01:59
tigertbut still useful01:59
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tigertdepends on your needs01:59
gadgetoidthe whole ui or just video?01:59
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tigertwhole ui01:59
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tigertfun for videos02:00
mgedminalso, you can use the supplied cable to connect the n900 to big speakers (RCA plugs)02:00
gadgetoidgood point02:00
DocScrutinizerPavlov: maybe that's helpful (esp first comment)
gadgetoidi am gonna dig up my barrel connectors and screen02:01
ali1234actually the video out can be independent of the UI - notice that you dont see the controls of the video player on the tv screen02:01
ali1234that's just some compositing trick though02:01
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mgedminlcuk got two separate pictures at once somehow: one on TV out, one on LCD02:01
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tigertali1234: right02:02
ali1234i found the tv out was kind of blurry compared to the LCD but that's probably just a combination of composite video and TV upscaler ruining it02:02
ali1234for video it is fine02:02
tigertali1234: ye02:02
PavlovDocScrutinizer: it looks like maybe i can use the osso_application_set_top_cb stuff02:03
tigertits not 800x48002:03
tigertbut its still fun02:03
ali1234it could be, in theory. NTSC supports that.02:03
ali1234(it doesn;t specify horizontal resolution)02:03
ali1234it would have to be interlaced though, and then the TV has to deinterlace it = bad02:04
gadgetoidgot a little in car display to test it on02:04
odin_can I move libraries (which were installed into /usr/lib from extra-devel packages) into /home/opt/maemo/usr/lib/ ?  (is all setup to pick them up from there just as well) ?02:04
ali1234odin_: it wasn't last time i checked02:04
ali1234but that was the old firmware02:05
SpeedEvilrootfs                  233224    225536      3408  99% /02:05
odin_SpeedEvil,  ^^^^ my problem too !!02:05
SpeedEvilI guess I should hold off on the app installing for a few moments.02:05
Flandryya think? :D02:05
odin_can I run an apt-get history ?02:06
odin_I want to know which packages I put on in last few hours and then extract each one and take a look at how crap its been packaged02:06
odin_I can then work out which libraries I can  move to /home/opt/maemo/usr/lib/02:06
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odin_infact I see symlinks from /usr/lib/foobar.ext -> /opt/maemo/usr/lib/foobar.ext02:07
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gadgetoidi haven't checked what my app installs are doing yet02:08
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gadgetoidare libs that big a problem osin?02:08
odin_they are brinking your box, they are brinking your box, please continue.... lols02:08
odin_I don't know until I audit the packages02:09
kalikianaodin_, try "odin_ --remember", that should work ;-)02:09
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lardmanhmm, those sharp netwalkers are expensive02:09
tigertif that doesnt, add sudo in front ;)02:09
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lardmanumid m1 is slighly smaller and has less battery life afaict, and is much chea[er02:10
odin_I am already 'root' (is that bad ?  I am ssh into it from a proper linux box)02:10
lardmanodin_: nah, I do that02:10
gadgetoidwoah instant irc on mah little tv02:11
gadgetoidcant read the text but it works02:11
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ali1234lardman: nice, i hadn't seen that02:12
lardmannight tigert02:13
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AakashPatelHow can I dev apps in C++?02:20
AakashPatelfor Maemo 502:21
SpeedEvilAakashPatel: yes.02:21
SpeedEvilAakashPatel: But only if you don't use the letter p.02:21
lardmanre netwalker, not a great review:
luke-jrAakashPatel: why not in Qt?02:21
AakashPatelWell, idk, I was wanting to buuld the protobuf library for maemo02:21
AakashPatelcuz the app I'm making requires it02:21
AakashPatelSpeedEvil, What do you mean?02:22
AakashPatel"But only if you don't use the letter p"02:22
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luke-jrAakashPatel: protobuf is a nightmare IIRC02:24
luke-jrAakashPatel: we switched to it for our game in #Armagetron02:24
AakashPatelThe API is already done02:24
AakashPatelBut we just need to protobuf lib to run on Maemo02:24
AakashPateland its C++02:24
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luke-jrAakashPatel: I'd just build native, so..02:26
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AakashPatelDo i need to do something to the maemo sdk scratchbox env to make it compile c++ apps?02:27
luke-jranyone know how to take a screenshot in Mer from CLI?02:27
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AakashPatelwhats Mer?02:30
infobotwell, mer is, or on #mer02:30
AakashPatel<- maemo n00b02:31
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luke-jrAakashPatel: Mer is a project to try to make an OS out of the open source parts of Mameo02:32
AakashPatelI see02:32
ali1234luke-jr: does it use omapfb? -> fbgrab02:33
luke-jrali1234: no, this isn't an OMAP02:33
ali1234does it use any kind of framebuffer X?02:33
luke-jrI would assume so?02:33
luke-jrit's Mer02:34
ali1234then fbgrab02:34
luke-jr-bash: fbgrab: command not found02:34
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odin_why is /usr/sbin/browserd so damn busy ?  the device has been closed and shutdown for over 5 minutes now02:36
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odin_do gif/flash adverts stop being animated when you minimize the browsers?02:37
kynkyadblock plus, but dont think so02:38
odin_well there is a bloody optimization for them...02:39
w00tand with tht, we wander into the realm of single tasking02:40
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odin_I have webservers which run a load avg like 0.01 when idle02:41
odin_lets see how far it goes down no everyting is closed02:41
AakashPatelerm how do i format an SD in maemo 502:41
jebbajebso i go to build a debian package and there are missing dependencies. I assume i just need to add more to /etc/apt/sources.list to grab them from some debian repo, but which one? I don't want to botch my scratchbox ;)02:42
odin_AakashPatel, Settings -> Memory -> ???02:43
gadgetoidhmm transmission is busted02:44
odin_AakashPatel, /sbin/mkfs.vfat exists but I'm not going to help you use it (for feer of you blanking your main MMC in the unit accidentally)02:45
infobotodin_ meant: AakashPatel, /sbin/mkfs.vfat exists but I'm not going to help you use it (for fear of you blanking your main MMC in the unit accidentally)02:45
AakashPateli see02:45
AakashPatelbleh ill just leave it out02:45
AakashPatelmy old phone stored a bunch of shit pictures from apps on it02:46
AakashPateland it kept showing up in my images app02:46
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lardmannight all02:53
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Ceron^how to transfer phone contacts02:56
Ceron^and messages from symbian to n900 :l02:56
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returnthisCeron^: I just used the sim car02:59
Ceron^that doesnt transfer text messages :l?02:59
sivanghi all03:00
returnthisthere is a transfer option, didn't use it but I imagine it would involve bluetooth03:00
sivangare there any mameo packages for installation on debian based distros ?03:00
sivanginstead of just downloading scratchbox or is it mandatory ?03:00
* sivang is more asking to debianized ways to the SDK03:00
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toggles_wim 2hrs into installing the sdk, 50%.. amazing..03:02
kalikianasivang, in principle you can install hildon libraries on a non-maemo debian03:02
kalikianabut you won't find things like mce there03:02
kalikianaor phone api03:02
kalikianaso I doubt most packages support that03:03
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odin_toggles_w, 2hrs??03:12
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nonversationI'm thinking of buying a maemo, but can't find the answer to a question I have03:20
nonversationthe 3G bands support Tmobile in the usa, correct?03:21
Flandryand yes03:21
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Flandryonly Tmobile for 3G03:21
nonversationwhat about the philippines, on smart or globe?03:21
Flandryno idea sorry03:21
nonversationI dont know if Smart in the philippines uses the same bands as tmobile, or att03:21
nonversationcan't seem to find that info =(03:21
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odin_it is quad band, so why would it not work on a particular network ?03:22
nonversationi know the phone part will work03:22
nonversationthe 3G is my concern03:22
Flandrydoesn't work on AT&T here03:22
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odin_as in I presume the US version works in PH03:22
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Flandryonly Tmobile03:22
Flandryand of course not Verizon03:22
nonversationso you are saying only Tmobile uses that special 3G band, no other carriers use the same ?03:23
nonversationlike smart or globe?03:23
odin_due to network barring ?  not sure to device incapability ?03:23
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nonversationhuh? im confused03:23
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Flandryin the US03:24
Flandrydue to insanity03:24
Flandrythe 3G band is different for AT&T and TMobile03:24
Flandryonly Tmobile's is supported by N90003:24
nonversationsighhh i know this03:24
FlandryVerizon is CDMA so it's completely incompatible03:24
nonversationok let me try to explain again03:25
Flandrythat's the nonsense we live with here odin03:25
nonversationleaving att out of this03:25
nonversationthe N900 uses what umts bands?03:25
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odin_yes I dont like in a part of the world i which that nonsense is allowed03:25
Flandryi don't know, but it's probably on wikipedia03:25
odin_GPRS class A, multislot class 32, maximum speed 107/64.2 kbps (DL/UL) EDGE class A, multislot class 32, maximum speed 296/177.6 kbps (DL/UL) WCDMA 900/1700/2100. Maximum speed PS 384/384 kbps (DL/UL) HSPA 900/1700/2100. Maximum speed PS 10/2 Mbps (DL/UL) WLAN IEEE 802.11b/g03:26
nonversationok now smart in the philippines uses HSPA 210003:27
nonversationmeaning, its possible that 3G would work as well in the philippines via smart03:27
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odin_well i see that in the list :)03:27
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Ceron^how to get | <- sign on n900?03:28
nonversationin what list?03:28
Ceron^in terminal03:28
Ceron^find / |grep03:28
Ceron^i need |03:28
nonversationa list of 3g bands by country03:28
nonversationwold be nice03:28
nonversationactually, Nokia should provide such since they sell in the philippines03:28
jebbajebCeron^: hold ctrl-fn  (blue arrow on left)03:28
odin_you mean by operator by country !03:28
jebbajebah. /me happy.  Up and running getting packages built03:29
nonversationI just need specifics for the 3G bands to see if they would match03:29
nonversationif the N900 can use 3G on more than just tmobile, then its not a complete waste of money03:30
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Ceron^where does03:30
Ceron^Pc suite transfer03:30
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Ceron^data on n900?03:30
Ceron^i cant find the directory jebbajeb w00t ?03:31
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w00tappliction manager just shat itself and deleted all the catlogues03:31
nonversationfound this, but doesn't help me enough
* w00t goes to bed03:32
kurtanCeron^: check this thread out:
Ceron^thx, but another question03:33
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Ceron^i want to transfer music to my device03:33
Ceron^how do i do it :P03:33
nonversationok found this SMART Philippines 02006-05-01May 2006 850/210003:33
nonversationGlobe Philippines 02006-05-01May 2006 210003:33
Ceron^i tried to pc suite and it looks ok but cant find it :(03:33
Ceron^on phone03:33
nonversationand the N900 does not support umts 850?03:34
luke-jrMer have a VNC server? <.<03:34
nonversationmeaning I might not have 3G there =/03:34
odin_nonversation,  not by the looks of it03:34
odin_does anyone operate 3g below 1gz?03:34
nonversationsighh, oh well. I guess that decides that I can't buy it , thanks everyone03:34
nonversationI would not have 3G in the usa, or philippines03:35
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nonversationtmobile coverage is very small, the phone coverage doesn't even work in my area at all03:35
odin_yes have dual network here only 2 have 850/900 (whatever) but I woud thought 3G was not supported on that band03:35
luke-jrnonversation: reminder: n900 is not a phone03:35
Ceron^anyway please answer my question03:35
nonversationcan it make calls ?03:35
nonversationthen its a phone03:35
Flandryof course it's a phone03:36
Ceron^where does Pc Suite -> N900 -> Data03:36
Ceron^get stored?03:36
luke-jrnonversation: my desktop PC can make calls too03:36
Flandryit's just not a great phone03:36
odin_a sec Ceron^03:36
nonversationoh, it has a gsm radio in it?03:36
luke-jrnonversation: nope03:36
nonversationthen its not a phone03:36
luke-jrcan still make calls03:36
nonversationdoesnt matter03:36
luke-jrgsm radio != phone03:36
nonversationfor sure03:36
jebbajebCeron^: what dir?03:36
Ceron^well im trying to transfer data03:36
Ceron^from windows pc to n90003:37
luke-jrand I can probably get a GSM radio USB for it03:37
Ceron^using pc suite03:37
nonversationunless they call it a tablet to get out of having to give it proper 3g fregencies03:37
odin_how u hooked up Ceron^ ?  BT? USB?03:37
nonversationfrequencies i mean03:37
luke-jrnonversation: N900 is called an Internet Tablet, not a phone03:37
Ceron^choosed pc suite03:37
odin_u have tools installed on PC ?03:37
nonversationwhats the difference03:37
auenfwhats not proper about only support 2100/900 :P03:37
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luke-jrnonversation: it is the successor of N810, also an Internet Tablet, WITHOUT a gsm radio03:37
Ceron^i already transfered03:37
nonversationthose bands don't cover much of anywhere03:37
Ceron^files to phone03:37
Ceron^but CANT FIND THEM03:37
odin_a sec Ceron^03:37
luke-jrnonversation: the difference is that an Internet Tablet focusses on web browsing03:37
DocScrutinizer51gsm radio ... tzzz  o.O03:37
nonversationyes the N900 has a gsm radio, thats how you make calls03:38
nonversationsim card03:38
nonversationof course, you know this03:38
auenfyou dont make calls on 3g (unless its voip)03:38
Flandrywe do nobody a favor by pretending the N900 isn't a phone03:38
Flandryit's a cop-out03:38
nonversationyou use data on 3G03:38
nonversationif you are lucky enough to live in one of the places that has these crazy bands03:38
nonversationthat most countries don't use03:39
DocScrutinizer51it has a gsm chipset aka modem03:39
Ceron^nobody can answer my question :P03:39
auenf2100/900 is used in heaps of places03:39
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DocScrutinizer51it also has a fs-tree m radio03:39
nonversationpull up the usa map and check the coverage, its worse than att03:39
DocScrutinizer51FM radio03:39
luke-jrnonversation: N900 makes calls with more than merely GSM03:39
luke-jrGSM is just a new feature03:39
nonversationI believe most of south amercia uses att 3g bands03:40
luke-jrN810 only made calls via SIP, XMPP, or Skype03:40
luke-jrN900 adds GSM03:40
nonversationi know this03:40
luke-jrthen stop being an idiot03:40
auenf2100: europe, asia, korea, japan, australia, nz, brazil03:40
nonversationyeah wikipedia says that03:40
Ceron^stop talking useless stuff and help me :D03:40
auenf900: europe, asia, australia, nz03:40
luke-jrnote I don't disagree with your conclusion that N900 isn't worth buying.03:40
odin_Ceron^, ok I am back03:40
nonversationbut thats not enough info my friend03:40
luke-jrit's only your reasons that suck03:41
Ceron^Pc Suite -> n900 -> Data foldder( where is it located on phone )03:41
auenfthats most of the world there, and the 1700 is obviously for the states ;)03:41
DocScrutinizer51btw it also has UMTS03:41
odin_into /home/user/MyDocs/ ?03:41
nonversationyeah im such an idiot for wanting to spend $600 on a device that can use 3G in my own country and others03:41
auenf3g == umts03:41
DocScrutinizer51UMTS != GSM03:41
nonversationi know, but what you dont understand is03:41
nonversationis not supported03:41
auenf850 is used in not many places03:41
nonversationit appears the philippines uses 850/210003:41
auenfnot compared to 2100/90003:42
nonversationatt uses 85003:42
Arkenoitoo bad nokia abandoned wimax03:42
nonversationI believe brazil uses 85003:42
luke-jralmost nowhere has wimax03:42
Ceron^Pc Suite -> n900 -> Data foldder( where is it located on phone )03:42
luke-jrand iirc it doesn't work with N810 WiMax Edition03:42
nonversationSo if im going to spend close to $600 , it might as well be on something I can use 3G on in multiple countries03:43
nonversationtablet, phone, whatever you care to call it03:43
Ceron^aaw screw it03:43
odin_yes its /home/user/MyDocs/03:43
Ceron^go away if you want to flame the phone03:43
Arkenoiluke: we have it03:43
Ceron^odin_: i transfered 300 megs :\03:43
nonversationyou mean tablet03:43
Ceron^its not there03:43
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Arkenoiin all major cities pretty good coverage03:43
odin_Ceron^, are you logged in with a shell ?03:43
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luke-jrArkenoi: nonsense, I live in a major city and nobody's ever heard of it03:44
Ceron^odin_: i looked from terminal03:44
auenf0 operators in africa and have 85003:44
Arkenoibut yes, it does not work with 810 wimax edition03:44
auenf1 operator in us, asia and australia use 85003:44
auenferr, and brazil03:44
Arkenoiluke-jr, i did not tell is is everywhere wordwide, i am speaking about my country03:44
odin_Ceron^, well mine maps "My Computer\N900 (PC-Suite Mode)\Data" to /home/user/MyDocs/03:44
auenflot more 900's in there than 850s03:45
auenfn900 isnt a mass market device, thats why its not available in all bands03:46
auenfmaemo 6 will most probably be available in all the bands (couple of different hardware versions i'd expect)03:47
auenf<nonversation> So if im going to spend close to $600 , it might as well be on something I can use 3G on in multiple countries <-- 2100 3g network exists on every continent iirc03:48
Ceron^odin_: what codecs does n900 support by default :P03:48
Ceron^odin_: if i want to watch some .mkv file formats or something like that03:48
odin_Ceron^, I found talk of .mkv in a packages from extra-devel repo03:48
DocScrutinizer51nah, it's plain silly to use GSM bands for UMTS. that,s nonstandard and you mustn't moan if it's not supported by a standard chipset and phone03:49
luke-jrif N900 were more open, would it be possible? ;)03:49
odin_does 3G exists below 1Ghz ?03:49
luke-jrdoesn't 3G *mean* above 3 GHz?03:50
DocScrutinizer51not standards03:50
odin_no in the UK AFAIK no operator on the 900MHz networks (there are only 2) support 3G on that band03:50
Arkenoiam i right that gsm bands are used for umts in countries where there is no gsm on that frequencies? say, if there is gsm-900, umts may be 850 etc03:50
odin_all operators support > 1.5GHz bands03:50
odin_that is my understanding anyway, we only have 5 operators all claiming "full national coverage" which is in the main true03:51
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auenfArkenoi, the 900/850 umts bands came about by the operators 'upgrading' the towers instead of rolling out a new network on a new frequency03:52
odin_so UK Vodafone and UK O2 both support 900MHz and some other band like 2100, the other 3 operators only support like 2100 (or whatever >1.5GHz bands we have here)03:52
auenfin australia, telstra had CDMA (not wcdma) on 850, they shut it down and turned it into hsdpa03:52
auenfodin_, voda uk prolly only support 900 as 2100/900, 2100 for down, 900 for up (or other way around)03:53
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auenfif your device only supports 2100, it will do both up and down tho03:53
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odin_auenf, sure... the 900 days are from the first modules and 900 gives better (voice) covereage03:53
infobotodin_ meant: auenf, sure... the 900 days are from the first mobiles and 900 gives better (voice) covereage03:53
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odin_is there no dpkg log of everything installed and when ?04:00
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jebbacool.  maemo-mapper appears to be working well for me for the first time  :)04:05
odin_25Mb used out of 233Mb of rootfs, for /var/lib/dpkg (this is a bit excessive)04:09
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sivangkalikiana: ah, I see, okay04:16
* sivang goes for the scratchbox SDK04:16
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kalikianaodin_, you should use a different cache dir if you use apt on the console04:25
kalikianait doesn't use the same as HAM04:25
kalikiana-o dir::cache=/home/user/MyDocs/apt04:25
kalikianapick a folder of cour choice04:25
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jebbayou'll also have to mkdir a few subdirs to get that command to work04:39
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odin_no i use HAM04:45
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dick-richardsoncan anyone link to the n900 firmware? I get to the 4 dots on boot and it locks05:02
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Venomrushyou need your IMEI05:08
_vickyi was trying to install python for s60 1.9.6 on 6681 using d sis file and i was geting error "file corrupted"05:10
dmj7261symbian has python?05:11
_vickyd nokia site says tat my phone suppors this05:11
_vickycan ny1 plz help05:11
sivangdmj7261: yeah05:11
_vickywat might b wrong05:11
_vickyi have updated d phones firmware05:11
sivangdmj7261: mnot bad support for it at all05:11
dmj7261heh, didn't know that.05:13
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sivangdmj7261: I played with it on my flatmates N95 :)05:13
sivangdmj7261: it was so cool05:13
dmj7261I suppose python support can't really be the killer python feature for the n900 then :P05:14
jebba_vicky: s60 isn't #maemo05:14
sivangdmj7261: not really , it runs beautifully there05:14
sivangdmj7261: I even managed to build and use an ipython05:15
_vickybcoz it was in garage of maemo, so asked here ....05:15
dmj7261I quite liked the n900 python.05:15
sivangdmj7261: during the Nokia Developer Day05:15
dick-richardsonwhat's IMEI?05:16
dmj7261id number for the phone05:17
dick-richardsonahh, that's no problem05:17
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DocScrutinizer51International Mobile Equipment Identifier?05:19
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dick-richardsonhow do you flash the device in 64-bit linux?05:22
dick-richardsonrun a VM?05:22
fernand0a chroot environment should work too05:23
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Arkenoiis 42 still the latest05:23
dick-richardsonlooks like it05:24
hellwolfI screwed /etc/pointercal.default file of my N810, and I can't startup my machine now. how can I restore the file without reflash the system?05:24
dick-richardsonDocScrutinizer51, that's awesome, thank you!05:25
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Arkenoipython was supported quite well on s60, nothing really new05:34
sivangArkenoi: right05:36
dick-richardsonand there we go; anyone tell you guys you're good?05:36
* sivang is wondering about the use of a custom log class in the maemo new gui isntall script05:36
Arkenoiactually killer scripting feature is not python itself but python-dbus ;-)05:37
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sivangArkenoi: although overusing it starts to become sluggish, as exhibited on my netbook with Ubuntu 9.1005:38
* sivang should go back to 8.1005:39
sivangI regret upgrading. The system is much less responsive then it was with 8.1005:39
* sivang should actually build his own kernel05:39
DocScrutinizer-8yeah, with a good listing of dbus methods and properties (right jebba? ;-)05:39
sivangDocScrutinizer-8: are we talking about the same dbus ? :)05:39
DocScrutinizer-8without those python-dbus won't help much05:40
sivangbut this doesn't exist :) I wrote device detection code using it in python with trial and erro :-p05:40
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DocScrutinizer-8yep, exactly my idea05:42
DocScrutinizer-8jebba has a short list of nice calls05:42
sivangthen he should publish them somewhere :)05:42
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Oli``Is there any (good) reason the mail settings screen keeps flashing up at irregular intervals on my n900?05:42
DocScrutinizer-8see URL 20 lines above ;-P05:43
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sivangjebba: right, I'm trying to copy and paste it using my terrible Compaq Mini touchpad :-p05:44
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sivangjebba: :)05:45
sivangjebba: I see we should get a computer janitor for N900 :)05:47
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sivangjebba: re your bricking05:48
sivangjebba: that's something in ubuntu that does cleanup and logs purging and stuff related05:48
sivangjebba: I think it started with a spec of mine, although I can't be sure05:49
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jebbaah ya05:50
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Arkenoiquite common problem with n900 - when answering the call i take it upside down, it is too symmetric06:01
johnxI tend to feel for the buttons, that should be on the "top" (in landscape)06:03
jebbagah, debian vim drives me a bit nuts. How to get it to not automatically do foo~ backup files?   (also / searching in it is real weird too)06:07
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mallochighI have an htc kaiser booting droid, really thought I was going to love it but sipdroid isn't all that great for me. But everything is working well kernel wise now.. so I have zImage and could grab anything thats needed from the filesystem (/lib/modules maybe) to get maemo going.. Does anyone have any ideas, or recommendations before I get started.06:17
mallochighDoes anyone even use the sip client in maemo any good?06:18
DocScrutinizer-8yeah,  /join mer! Stskeeps will love you for that06:19
Arkenoiyes, it is quite good06:19
DocScrutinizer-8#mer even06:19
Arkenoimy sip registar is quite picky and i had no luck with sipdroid06:19
Arkenoiit worked with maemo sip client smoothly out of the box06:19
DocScrutinizer-8sipgate working absolutely flawless here06:20
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Arkenoithe only drawback is there is no UI for selecting codec preference06:21
DocScrutinizer-8even nicely integrated into dialer and phonelog (not dialing from contacts though :-/ )06:21
Arkenoiwhich might be useful if you are going to use sip over edge06:21
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DocScrutinizer-8Arkenoi: heh, didn't notice that. you're right :-)06:21
DocScrutinizer-8maybe we should pester michel deBoer to port twinklephone to maemo06:22
DocScrutinizer-8now with Qt that shouldn't be too hard06:23
DocScrutinizer-8full integration into maemo proprietary crap would be another issue though06:25
DocScrutinizer-8dunno how much of the dialer/contacts/phonelog/etc source is OSS06:26
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jebbai'm trying to build asterisk right now  :)06:50
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DocScrutinizer-8well, asterisk isn't exactly a sip clientt. but for this particular purpose it might be exactly what we need06:53
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jebbait could certainly be used as a sip client too though.  A monster of a sip client.....06:59
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mallochighcool, just came back..07:05
mallochighWish the contacts would dial :/07:07
DocScrutinizer-8hmm, the interfacing to audio and dialer interface isn't *s domain. it's a B2B PBX07:09
luke-jrmallochigh: you realize Maemo isn't open source entirely?07:10
luke-jrmallochigh: your best bet is Mer07:10
DocScrutinizer-8so for here best way to put it to purpose is to use it as a "proxy"07:10
DocScrutinizer-8and interface via SIP from native nokia SIP account07:11
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jebbais mer roughly based on etch as well=?07:12
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mallochighokie thanks for the low down, atleast things are inching towards an open platform.07:14
luke-jrmallochigh: 3D is the big catch07:15
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luke-jrmallochigh: the two embedded 3D chips are PowerVR and Qualcomm07:15
luke-jrneither of which are friendly07:15
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mallochighyeah, the rev-eng on qualcom msm7500b (kaiser) is actually usable.. We have wifi sound and camera, i think gps/bt is close if not operational. I'm guessing another year 6 months and things will be near production quality.. right now its moving to a solid beta.07:24
jebbaOMFG it built (for i386). Now to see if it'll crosscompile07:24
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luke-jrmallochigh: and 3D?07:32
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mallochighSeems like the 3d works..07:34
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mallochighThey had to make thier own drivers for winmo to get the 3d07:34
mallochighI'm pretty sure it works in droid too..07:34
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luke-jrmallochigh: seriously?07:34
mallochighbattery may die, i will come back07:35
mallochighi don't really know where src is but the vogue-android page has the names of atleast 1/4 of the real movers and shakers.. if you search thier nicks towards linux2go (not sure if thats right) or towards kernel repositories you'll find whats avail.07:37
mallochighas far as winmo 3d drivers
mallochighthat seemed to have come about via binary driver hacking from a simular model..07:38
luke-jrthat's nothing then07:38
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jebbaOMFG it built for arm too07:41
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mallochighbut if it works on droid then im sure you could make it work on maemo07:44
mallochigher mer07:44
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luke-jrmallochigh: I can't find any code for that project period07:45
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jebbaConnected to Asterisk currently running on Nokia-N900-42-11 (pid = 3016)07:49
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* jebba goes to sleep.....07:50
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luke-jrmallochigh: downloaded the rootfs, and there is no OpenGL-related library in it07:58
mallochighoh okie.07:59
luke-jrGL is not usually in the kernel07:59
luke-jrkernel just does DRM and such07:59
luke-jrmallochigh: if you can grab a dev, ask them what they mean by GPU working, since there is no GL lib in the rootfs...08:00
mallochighwell then I have no idea.08:00
mallochighI'll do that the next time I see one08:00
rrr__isnt it in the repositories?08:00
mallochighthey used to hang in vogue-android, but I only see dzo and he rarely sppeaks08:01
luke-jrrrr__: what repositories?08:01
luke-jrrrr__: all their source links are dead except the kernel one, and it wouldn't be in there, no08:02
mallochighUpdate(28/04/09): The GPU now works, all the OpenGL apps and games I tried work really well. This is something that WinCE still lacks on MSM7x00 devices.08:02
luke-jrmallochigh: yes, no evidence that is possible08:02
mallochighthat's dzo's work he is in #vogue-android08:02
rrr__libgles2-dev ?08:02
luke-jrrrr__: nope, not even an instance of the word "Vertex"08:02
luke-jrwhich is required for basic GL symbols08:02
mallochighWell don't know what to tell you, maybe its a propietary thing to android? Go bugger dzo. I was just curious to see if I could get maemo via unionfs or the likes.08:03
mallochighGotta get on the homework now.08:03
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crashanddie_mbpyo johnx08:47
johnxmbp? is that new?08:47
crashanddie_mbpyeah, kinda :)08:47
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crashanddie_mbpjohnx: what's new?08:49
johnx...shiny. strangely, I had almost gotten completely tired of Mac hardware (since I work with it all day) until I had to deal with some guy who brought in his windows laptop08:49 hmm. just imaged 21 dell mini 10v's for work last night08:49
johnxalso, it looks like the pandora might finally ship08:50
crashanddie_mbppandora is like doom nuken forever08:50
crashanddie_mbpit will never see the light of day08:50
crashanddie_mbpor the day of light08:51
johnxi dunno. they never actually really *showed* any of the duke nukem stuff they were working on, except for that one craptastic trailer08:51
jiivi was starting to think that about dell-preordered n900s :)08:51
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crashanddie_mbpanyone know where the source code for mbarcode is hosted?08:55
johnxlike the source tarball or the svn/git/cvs/whatever?08:55
johnxdunno about that, but the tarball is here:
crashanddie_mbpI offered to do some dev for lardman, and he took me up on my offer08:57
crashanddie_mbplardman|gone: around?08:57
crashanddie_mbpc'mon! Nearly 7AM on a saturday morning, wake the fuck up!08:57
johnxso are you up early or up late?08:58
crashanddie_mbpit's only 11PM here08:58
crashanddie_mbpjohnx: I'm in california atm08:58
johnxah, right08:58
johnxdidn't I tell you to stop by here?08:58
crashanddie_mbpdidn't I tell you a 800 mile trip isn't fitting my schedule?08:59
johnxyeah, I just didn't accept it as a terribly good reason08:59
johnxbut here's the svn tree anyways:
crashanddie_mbpah, thanks09:00
crashanddie_mbpI never check garage, for some reason or another09:00
* johnx checks google :)09:00
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johnxthere's a video camera app for maemo 5 right?09:01
jiivdoesn't the builtin camera app do video?09:02
* johnx checks09:02
jiivi think i've seen it on youtube.09:02
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johnxhmm...I hope there's source code for that ...09:03
crashanddie_mbpno, there ain't09:03
jiivdunno :(09:03
crashanddie_mbpthat being said, the camera module is in free access09:04
crashanddie_mbpwith a customer kernel we could get access to RAW images!09:04
johnxyeah, should just be a matter of a simple gstreamer pipeline09:04
johnx(to get video at all, not RAW)09:04
johnxI wonder if it has enough guts to record from the front and back camera at the same time :>09:06
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crashanddie_mbpit uses the same data bus to access both cameras09:07
crashanddie_mbpso you can only have one on at any given time09:07
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johnxI can live with that I guess. can just flip back and forth and take a frame out of the front camera every 5 seconds09:08
johnx...I'll need to fab up a windshield mount that still lets the front camera see out the front of the car ...09:09
crashanddie_mbpjohnx: get a real camera09:09
johnxI want data from the accelerometer and gps as well as the cell capabilities09:10
johnxand before you start suggesting a whole bunch of professional gear, price is somewhat of a concern, as is portability/convenience09:11
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crashanddie_mbpjohnx: dmc-lx309:12
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crashanddie_mbpjohnx: you can get it for roughly ~350 if you pick up a good price, it's still a compact -- but for the high end, photo-savvy market, full manual controls + leica lens!09:12
johnxwhich is, AFAICT, missing the gps, accelerometer and GSM modem09:13
crashanddie_mbpit has two accelerometers actually, but that's beside the point09:13
crashanddie_mbpyou want decent photography, go with a decent camera09:13
johnxI want mediocre photography in an all in one package09:13
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johnxin fact, the accuracy of the GPS and accelerometer worry me more :/09:14
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arachnistyou want video from the fron camera?09:16
arachnistmplayer tv://09:16
arachnistit's a simple v4l interface09:16
arachnist(v4l2, to be precise)09:16
johnxah, well that does make it simple :)09:16
arachnistfront as in the 5mpix one09:17
johnxyeah, that's the one I want09:17
johnxthough I'd almost call that "back" :)09:17
johnxI wonder if Nokia's camera app does anything smart in terms of encoding video on the DSP ...09:17
RST38hjohnx: accelerometer is ok09:18
RST38hGPS sucks, probably even more than the one in n81009:19
johnxI thought i heard someone say the front/back direction had less "resolution" than side to side and up and down though09:19
arachnisti wouldn't say it sucks that bad09:19
arachnistin a tram, i got a lock in 20s09:20
arachnistand it followed me all the way back home09:20
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johnxas much as I said that all-in-one would be nice, I could supplant the GPS with a cheapie bt GPS if really necessary09:20
crashanddie_mbpyo z4chh dude!09:22
crashanddie_mbpI love it when functions are properly named09:24
johnxthe important thing is that the GPS track time and video time sync up nicely as well as the recorded accelerometer data09:24
fredrinjohnx: whats your project?09:25
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johnxfredrin, automotive telemetry recording09:26
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johnxkind of a proof of concept: "what information can we get?" then later we'll get to "how can we use this data?" and much later "how can we learn from this data?"09:27
jaem_hey folks09:30
johnxallo jaem_09:30
jiivhi there.09:30
jaem_I'm a bit confused09:31
jaem_Qt's QPoint class has a manhattanLength() function09:31
jaem_which is a one-liner09:31
jaem_however, the QPointF (floating point version) only got that function added in 4.609:32
jaem_...did I mention it's a one-liner? :S09:32
jaem_...this came up because I'm trying to test an app on the N810 that was coded for the N90009:33
jiivi'm not terribly qtish, sorry. :/09:34
jaem_silly Qt09:34
jaem_jiiv, it's not really an issue, just a silly annoyance09:35
jaem_it's easy enough to write my own function, just odd that it's necessary09:35
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RST38hjohnx: accelerometer reports -1000..1000 in each direction09:36
jaem_ johnx what sort of data is this app collecting?09:36
RST38hjohnx: I kinda suspect that the difference in resolution is purely fictional and may be cause by the fact that it is easier to tilt the thing sideways :)09:37
johnxjaem_, as much as possible. at least gps and accelerometer data, and hopefully at least some low quality video out of the 5mp camera09:37
johnxRST38h, cool. with any luck I can get my hands on a "real" (read: single purpose) accelerometer and do some side-by-side testing09:38
johnxthe hardest part may well be recording it in such a way that we can reintegrate it later09:40
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johnxhmmm, mplayer tv:// works, but mencoder tv:// -o foo... fails10:01
johnxs/fails/succeeds with a little more work/10:02
infobotjohnx meant: hmmm, mplayer tv:// works, but mencoder tv:// -o foo... succeeds with a little more work10:02
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johnxlooks like it can handle 15fps video without too much pain10:09
RST38hjohnx: accelerometers vary a lot, depending on the construction. so, I would rather suggest comparing 5-10 N900s to see if the returned values are consistent :)10:10
johnxRST38h, well, if I get my way, that very well might happen :)10:11
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GAN900Morning, #maemo!10:19
jiivhi there.10:19
luke-jrGAN900: Mer is slow w/o hw accel 3D10:20
johnxGAN900, mornin'10:20
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GAN900luke-jr, OK?10:21
luke-jrother than that, my port seems to be getting there10:22
luke-jrneed to get Wifi working10:22
johnxluke-jr, so pretend I work for an insurance company with lots of lobbying power: What kind of data would be most helpful for me to record from your car?10:22
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luke-jrjohnx: if I was speeding, you could decline coverage? <.<10:24
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* DangerMaus yawns10:24
johnxwell, yeah. but I should also decline coverage if you tend to decelerate rapidly (panic braking) often10:24
johnxbut what else? maybe I could record light and/or time readings and see if you drive at night often. that's kind of dangerous too10:25
* RST38h should just decline coverage whenever he likes10:26
johnxc'mon. help me spy on you :D10:26
luke-jrjohnx: driving at night shouldn't void coverage10:26
RST38hjohnx: install a camera and interpret his facial expressions10:26
johnxluke-jr, you're right. I'd just make it more expensive10:26
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GAN900It's official, N900 GPS doesn't work for shit without cellular.10:26
RST38hjohnx: Use a microphone to check if he is swearing when driving10:26
RST38hGAN: No news to me.10:27
RST38hbug 533710:27
povbot`Bug Can't get GPS lock without network connection10:27
jiivjohnx: use a dataplan monitor to determine whether he's web browsing while driving? ;)10:28
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* RST38h wonders if an anal probe can be used to extact any data useful for the insurance company10:29
johnxRST38h, thought about it. might cause people to actually protest the law. out-of-sight, out-of-mind and all that10:29
johnxjiiv, might be good to listen for loud music :>10:29
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jiiv:) arguably an anal probe would be out of sight when in use.10:30
johnxRST38h, my comment was unintentionally timely :D10:30
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johnxmaybe I could plug into whether the windshield wipers were being used. driving in the rain = unsafe10:30
* johnx wonders how much the CAN bus reports...10:30
DantonicN800hey, is it possible to share the 3g connection of the n900 with my n800?10:32
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DantonicN800not working via bluetooth10:32
johnxthere was some post about enabling more BT profiles on the N900. looked at it already?10:33
jiivi think it doesn't work out of the box, but there's a writeup on the wiki or something?10:33
DantonicN800ok i'll look in the wiki10:33
jiivi'd go find it but i'm sleepy and lazy right now :(10:34
johnxI see something about tethering over usb, but I don't know if that would help all that much on the N800 ...10:35
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GAN900Documentation brainstorm, if anybody has any specific issues they'd like addressed let me know and I'll dump them into the discussion.11:04
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divinegodhow do I get gstreamer in maemo to decode using avc1?11:20
* PaulFertser likes how the official reaction on bug 5337 confirms what he said earlier about nokia, same story, different faces, same outcome.11:21
povbot`Bug Can't get GPS lock without network connection11:21
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RST38hwhere is the "official reaction" anyway?11:25
BluesLeeis there a offline reader like evopedia on the n900 abvailable?11:25
BluesLeei should say wikipedia reader11:25
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PaulFertserRST38h: i see none except for Comment #1 from Andre Klapper ( ;)11:28
Stskeepsand that's our bugmaster responding to it11:29
Stskeepsthat's not a official response :P11:29
PaulFertserRST38h: they refused to fix a similar issue on n810 and introduced agps instead. Now some new folks finally understood that agps is not the solution, and nokia keeps silence.11:29
PaulFertserStskeeps: that's my point, no sensible reaction from nokia whatsoever.11:29
StskeepsPaulFertser: there's an internal bug11:30
Arkenoiagps on n810, a tablet with no builtin cellular connectivity? quite weird11:30
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PaulFertserStskeeps: the internal-external bugtracker issue dates back to 2006 iirc and it seems that internal still wins. Well done nokia.11:31
Stskeepsmeh :P11:31
kynkyon winmo , didnt mind the solution of quickgps + real intrnal gps, but nokia doesnt cache the satelites on n900 afaik11:31
StskeepsPaulFertser: i doagree the issue should be fixed though11:31
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PaulFertserArkenoi: exactly. Nokia said well, we checked everything and it's good, if you need faster fix times use our beta-proprietary agps software.11:31
RST38hPaulFertser: I think you have no clear understanding of Nokia's bugfixing process11:32
johnxwould at least be nice to see a "we're looking at it internally. no need to keep confirming it, but please keep voting."11:32
RST38hOr their GPS implementation11:32
PaulFertserStskeeps: i do not care about the issue that much. I care about being nice to the customers. Keeping silence and not admitting the issue is not nice.11:32
kynkywhich works well when you have no cellular signal?11:32
PaulFertserRST38h: indeed. I do not have access to the internal bugtracker. I see from the outside that to anybody who reports a bug the process is very untransparent and frustrating.11:33
RST38hPaulFerster: First of all, Andre Klapper is not really working on Maemo development. He is simply managing the Bugzilla.11:33
RST38hPaulFerster: It is not the internal bugtracker issue, it is the issue with you not willing to understand details11:33
PaulFertserRST38h: i know that already11:33
Stskeepshow about we start a bug how to cache AGPS data?11:33
Stskeepsi mean, it should be possible11:33
Stskeepsor pre-cache11:33
kynkyit is possible11:33
RST38hPaulFertser: Perfect. Then you know that a bugtracker comment from Andre DOES NOT constitute any official reaction from Nokia11:34
kynkyjust not implemented11:34
RST38hStskeeps: the above bug isenough11:34
Stskeepsfor travellers11:34
kynkyprob just easier to pair with external bt dongle, which is annoying11:34
PaulFertserRST38h: the idea is that having an internal bugtracker is mad confusing and frustrating to the outsiders. I can't see why you keep defending this broken process. Moreover there's a special ticket tracking migration to the external bugtracker, it's one of the official goals, dating back to 2006.11:34
StskeepsRST38h: it's weird to me that a normal fix isn't possible11:34
StskeepsPaulFertser:we had this discussion once11:35
Stskeepswhy bother repeating it? :P11:35
RST38hPaulFertser: Furthermore, if you knew what you were talking about, you would take into account that whatever software Nokia implements is limited by the GPS hardware used in N810/N900 (TI53xx chip)11:35
PaulFertserRST38h: yes, that's the problem i outlined before: no official responce from nokia whatsoever about quite an important bug. And it's the second time serious problems with gps arise and it's the same shit nokia does again...11:35
PaulFertserStskeeps: (bother repeating) no idea, RST38h is provoking me ;)11:35
RST38hStskeeps: My guess is that it is impossible without adding a lot of code, and THAT is why they are unwilling to start on it11:35
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redeemanim wondering, is it normal that the N900 swaps nearly all the time?11:36
RST38hPaul: Well, Nokia cannot replace the physical chip11:36
StskeepsRST38h: remember what chip it is i don't think gps530011:36
kynkythey can implement sw solutions11:36
RST38hAnd Maemo software developers are not responsible for hw design anyway11:36
RST38hStskeeps: It is either 5300 or its next incarnation. A moment.11:36
RST38hStskeeps: they both suck royally though11:36
RST38hkynky: they DID implement a sw solution that requires connectivity11:37
StskeepsRST38h: cos this one is 'more open' afaik11:37
johnxredeeman, yup. it's part of what makes it so good at multitasking11:37
PaulFertserRST38h: the chip is quite possibly ok, i suspect that n810 had a faulty library interfacing to it. Nokia refused to get any debug info from the the proprietary library in the open so this claim is neither confirmed nor dismissed.11:37
RST38hStskeeps: I think this one is NaviLink 535011:37
johnxnokia has /proc/sys/vm/swappiness set at 100 (out of 100), which is frankly awesome to me :)11:37
kynkyRST38h, constant connectivity, if they implemented something llike quickgps, you just need initial connectivity11:37
RST38hPaulFertser: "I think" is opinion, not a fact11:38
redeemanjohnx: ah, i was worried for a while there, but won't that do serious wear on the flash?11:38
PaulFertserRST38h: neither a fact that the chip is faulty. Nokia refused to confirm or deny it.11:38
RST38hjohnx: Is it good or bad? =)11:38
RST38hThe chip is not faulty.11:38
StskeepsPaulFertser: class action suits? :P11:38
RST38hJust week. For this particular fact you do not need Nokia's confirmation.11:38
johnxredeeman, I imagine they've stress tested the heck out of it. From my own (strictly anecdotal) experience, I've been swapping to SD cards for 4 years and haven't killed one yet (from swapping)11:38
infobotRST38h meant: Just weak. For this particular fact you do not need Nokia's confirmation.11:38
* brbrbr greet anyone :)11:38
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RST38hTI clearly status that it is an AGPS chip, check the datasheet11:39
kynkyso not gps + agps ?11:39
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PaulFertserRST38h: i'm not sure that explains it. After getting the fix the device keeps it in harsh conditions, that probably confirms that selectivity and other physical properties are good enough.11:39
johnxRST38h, it's pretty cool. the kernel hacker who designed that part of the memory subsystem said that he prefers the behavior with swappiness set to 100, but most distros put it between 40 and 60, and the N8x0 had it at 1 when swap was enabled11:39
RST38hStskeeps: I think the minimal solution will require 2 things11:39
RST38hStskeeps: Both are not hard to do, but Nokians apparently have different priorities from the users11:40
PaulFertserRST38h: AGPS means GPS with A capability, not that A is mandatory for decent performance.11:40
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RST38hPaulFertser: No.11:40
redeemanjohnx: i know about the guy, but i also disagree strongly with his swapping preferences11:40
redeemanjohnx: that guy does not know anything about a proper desktop experience, he would rather trade jerky window movement and such, for somewhat faster kernel compilation11:40
johnxredeeman, you can probably just echo n > /proc/sys/vm/swappiness11:41
redeemanyeah i already did, but it still swaps alot11:41
RST38hStskeeps: One is keeping the last used ephemeris data. Second is that A-GPS UI with the map that lets me select my location manually and downloads new ephemeris over WiFi11:41
johnxredeeman, even with n = 1?11:41
redeemanwith n = 0 :)11:41
PaulFertserRST38h: well, we have u-blox 4 chip on freerunners, it's an AGPS solution. And we observed exactly that: GPS with capability to load ephemeris/almanac from elsewhere to speed up the fix.11:41
RST38hStskeeps: I wonder if the second one can be done with some dbus command...11:41
redeemanjohnx: it seems to use nearly all the ram11:41
StskeepsRST38h: second one should be easy.. n n8x0 it was a gconf setting11:41
RST38hPaulFertser: Ok, continue using your freerunner.11:41
Arkenoie90 gps worked reasonably well without network connectivity, i guess the chip is the same11:41
PaulFertserRST38h: and keeping the last ephemeris data is ~trivial for our ublox4 chip btw.11:42
RST38hBecause N900s have that NaviLink chip and it is lacking11:42
kynkylinux always uses nearly all ram, or appears todo so!11:42
johnxredeeman, well, it shouldn't swap unless it needs to i nthat configuration. how's the responsiveness with n=0, BTW?11:42
redeemanit actaully seemed more responsive, but it has still swapped abit11:42
redeemanjohnx: but swapping is very broken in linux, it will swap even if it doesn't need to11:42
johnxredeeman, broken compared to ...?11:43
redeemanespecially if you have a tmpfs filesystem mounted11:43
RST38hArkenoi: Some forum postings do say that it is the same gps chip as in n81011:43
redeemanjohnx: i don't know of any system where it works, i just know its somehow broken in linux11:43
PaulFertserRST38h: the only evidence supporting the "weakness" of the n810 chip you've provided so far is that it's declared to be AGPS in the datasheet. I'm not sure it's strong enough to justify poor reception of the ephemeris data from the sats.11:43
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RST38hIt is never declared to support GPS in the datasheet, just AGPS11:43
redeemanjohnx: i can give you an example11:44
Stskeeps  btw, seems intersting11:44
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redeemanjohnx: i have a box with 32GB ram, theres about 10GB ram in use, 15GB is used as filesystem cache, that leaves 7GB completely unused, and yet linux decides to swap stuff out, even with swappiness set to 011:44
johnxredeeman, interesting. maybe there's another tuning variable besides swappiness?11:45
wazdStskeeps: aren't you at the event? :)11:45
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redeemanjohnx: theres not, i've been able to find nothing, and neither have other kernel hackers, some even go so far as to deny the problem exists11:46
arachnistredeeman: i didn't happen to notice things like that even with boxes that have 96GB of ram11:46
johnxredeeman, deny that it's a problem or say they can't reproduce it?11:46
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arachnistredeeman: what distro are you using?11:46
Stskeepswazd: no, finishing thesis11:47
redeemanjohnx: andrew morton thinks this is awesome behavior, since it can then quickly use the ram for new things, as swapped things are old!11:47
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PaulFertserRST38h: do you mean the 2-page product bulletin is the datasheet you refer to?11:47
RST38hYea, that "datasheet"11:47
RST38hAnd yes, I hate it as much as the next guy11:47
redeemanarachnist: lots of people can reproduce this, also on less ram, i suggest you try mount a tmpfs, copy 5GB stuff into it, then you'll have your kernel swap like a madman, also, this happens on atleast debian and gentoo, with both vendor and vanilla kernels11:47
johnxredeeman, he actually replied in that way even when people complained about swapping with swappiness==0? or are you putting words in his mouth?11:47
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johnxand, I imagine tmpfs is kind of a different situation than swapping with no tmpfs11:48
redeemanjohnx: i guess theres a slight chance he may have answered something else, but that is his stance, and as such, "bugfixes" that would change his favorate behavior are not really high on his list11:48
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johnxredeeman, so you submitted a patch and it was rejected?11:49
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redeemanno, because i have no idea what goes wrong, or how to fix it, it makes no sense11:49
redeemani am not an expert in the VM system11:49
arachnistredeeman: centos on the 96GB blade here, gentoo on my 8GB desktop. sorry, couldn't reproduce it11:49
PaulFertserRST38h: that bulletin proves nothing imho.11:49
redeemanarachnist: so you never have it swap?11:49
redeemanarachnist, johnx :
redeemansomewhat old screenshot, but valid nonetheless11:50
RST38hPaulFertser: On the contrary, active refusal to mention GPS in that bulletin (as opposed to AGPS) proves that the chip sucks at GPS11:50
arachnistredeeman: unless 24KB swapped-out or so counts11:50
redeemanarachnist: its less than i get, but still enough to display a problem, unless you used alot ram in the past11:50
PaulFertserRST38h: i'd call that claim a speculation ;)11:51
PaulFertserRST38h: with more debug data from the proprietary library it'd become clear if its cheap weakness or not. Alas nokia refused to provide that.11:51
RST38hPaulFertser: Well, you made way more speculative claims than this one11:51
arachnistredeeman: running 7 or 8 vms on an 8GB box counts as a heavy ram use, i guess :>11:52
redeemanarachnist: depends on how much ram they get11:52
redeemanoh, and a brand new from 32GB ram box:
PaulFertserRST38h: probably yes. I'm still waiting for some solid evidence but nobody's interested to provide it.11:52
Arkenoiin most cases AGPS means GPS with optional assisted mode11:53
redeemanarachnist, johnx: as you see, this is not really the behavior one would expect, and in my opinion, extremely wrong11:53
PaulFertserArkenoi: exactly11:53
johnxredeeman, what command is that?11:53
redeemanjohnx: htop11:53
Arkenoihaving that assisted mode mandatory is big surprise for everyone11:53
johnxand what does free say?11:53
redeemanjohnx: free/top confirms the same data, as does /proc/meminfo11:53
RST38hPaulFertser: Why would anyone be willing to provide you with "evidence"? Are you prepared to pay for "evidence"?11:54
Arkenoimy old e90 had agps in specs as well and it run perfectly unassisted, just a bit slower cold start11:54
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johnxredeeman, what's the typical use of your tmpfs filesystems?11:54
redeemanjohnx: the 32GB ram  box doesn't even use a tmpfs right now, and i swappoff/swapon'ed after unmounting it11:55
RST38hArkenoi: If you check tht TI document, you will see that the bastards are very careful to avoid saying GPS11:55
RST38hArkenoi: And THAT is not a good sign11:55
redeemanon my 8GB workstation i use it for compiling packages in11:55
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PaulFertserRST38h: nokia customers've already paid for the devices. And the ticket in question (talking about n810 gps performance problems) gathered enough gps experts to properly evaluate the data. Also providing some debug info is not more than 2-3 hours of volunteer work for the nokia engineer in charge.11:55
Arkenoirst38h: doesn't e90 have ti chip as well? probably even the same one?11:55
johnxredeeman, you ran swapoff/swapon and it immediately filled it with 400MB+?11:56
RST38hArkenoi: Forum postings seem to indicate the same chip as n81011:56
Arkenoithe only situation it showed poor performance was cold fix from moving position11:56
redeemanjohnx: nah, it likes to do it slowly, over a few days11:56
RST38hArkenoi: I have not found more credible data11:56
Arkenoithen it could take 20 minutes or more11:56
redeemanjohnx: but rest assured, at no point does ANYTHING come even close to using full ram, this is basically all the ram it uses, and it doesn't even use it all for disk cache11:56
RST38hPaulFertser: Ok. Could you please tell what you intend to do with that debug info11:56
johnxredeeman, you don't run cron?11:57
RST38hArkenoi: Yea, N810 also had problems with the cold fix from moving position11:57
RST38hArkenoi: Cold fix from stationary took me about 5-7 minutes in Moscow11:57
PaulFertserRST38h: evaluate if that's really the cheap supplying bad/incomplete data or rather the binary processing it is faulty.11:57
RST38hArkenoi: Assisted fix was more like 40 seconds11:58
redeemanjohnx: yes, and the few things that run are simple things like poke a website with curl and such, hardly something that would warrant this11:58
RST38hPaulFertser: And what would you do with that evaluation?11:58
PaulFertserRST38h: if the chip is faulty, so be it, everybody would understand and calm down. If that's software processing data badly, then it is getting fixed and the happy users will get the performance they expect.11:59
RST38hPaulFertser: You have not answered my question11:59
PaulFertserRST38h: what _i_ would do?11:59
johnxredeeman, submit a bug report, ask for an explanation of the behavior. I honestly don't know, but using that much swap with swappiness=0 looks somewhat odd. It is kind of an old kernel though (up for 393 days!) so maybe there were some changes in the kernel since then ;)12:00
RST38hPaulFertser: Ok, some Nokia employee spends 2-3 hours of paid time, dumps some log, and gices it to you. You evaluate the log. What next?12:00
redeemanjohnx: the 8GB ram box uses .31, and that's not so old12:00
RST38hPaulFertser: To be more precise: what advantage should we all expect from you evaluating the log?12:00
RST38hAre you gonna fix it/12:00
PaulFertserRST38h: post the analisys on the bugtracker along with the verdict. Other folks read it and confirm it's bad chip supplying bad data. Or not. If it's not the chip fault, nokia gets one of their paid employees to fix the binary library.12:01
RST38hOk. So you are not going to fix it, just whine some more?12:01
PaulFertserRST38h: how can one fix a bug in a binary library without access to the sources?12:01
johnxredeeman, no idea. I haven't noticed similar behavior without huge memory load, even with swappiness in the 40-60 range12:02
RST38hAnd if you can't fix anything, then there is no use giving you the log.12:02
PaulFertserRST38h: nokia decided not to share the sources, so that means they took the responsibility to fix it whenever bugs found.12:02
RST38hHave you considered that Nokia may be under NDA with TI in respect to 53xx chips?12:02
PaulFertserRST38h: there's. Analising the problem is an important part of the solution process.12:02
RST38hI.e. they CAN'T open that code to you?12:02
redeemanlol, NDA for GPS chip?12:03
PaulFertserRST38h: if they can't, then they should fix the bugs themselves, simple like that.12:03
RST38hYes, what is strange? 53xx datasheets are not publicly available, so they are probably handed out under NDA12:03
PaulFertserRST38h: but they claim the software is not buggy. Without supporting this claim in any sensible way. I simply do not trust them.12:03
* RST38h suddenly understands that he can probably get those datasheets12:03
RST38hPaulFertser: If you claim that YOUR software is not buggy and I do not trust you, what changes?12:04
PaulFertserRST38h: they should either prove the software is ok or fix the bugs, that's their responsibility, customers paid for that already when buying the device.12:04
RST38hBesides, I can easily believe the software is not buggy, it just does not go the extra mile needed for uplink-less GPS12:04
johnxProving there are no bugs? Isn't that like proving there is no god?12:04
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PaulFertserjohnx: posting debug logs would help12:05
RST38hmoo lardman12:05
lardmanhey RST38h12:05
PaulFertserRST38h: it does, n810 is actually able to get a standalone gps fix, just in some conditions it takes surprisingly long.12:06
johnxPaulFertser, just so you know: You're preaching to the choir for the most part. I think everyone here would have either a neutral or positive reaction to that.12:06
DantonicN800is there a way to tell if any of the ap's in 'testing' are optified?12:06
PaulFertserjohnx: so why do they argue instead of agreeing that "nokia sucks"? ;)12:06
johnxPaulFertser, anyways, convincing RST38h that Nokia should give you some debug probably won't cause Nokia to give you the debug logs12:07
lardmanDantonicN800: install and see how much space they take up?12:07
johnxDantonicN800, dpkg-deb -X them to some directory and look at the structure they create12:07
lardmanactually if you download the file, isn't there a command to list the files therein, that would show if there was an opt dir12:07
DantonicN800if i uninstall purge it'll get rid of everything right?12:07
DantonicN800that sounds interesting12:08
johnxor dpkg -L some-package12:08
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johnxPaulFertser, also,
DantonicN800so how do i use it? save it in the directory i want first? then dpkg?12:09
RST38hjohnx: he may also consider that the original gps bug has been filed by myself :)12:09
lardmanjohnx: does it have to be installed for that to work?12:09
PaulFertserjohnx: yeah, one of my favourites, i sometimes feel i'm exactly that stupid guy12:09
johnxlardman, I ... should remember, but I don't. uhm, That is left as an exercise for the reader :)12:10
lardmantake note DantonicN800 :)12:10
PaulFertserjohnx: in fact always was, even when i wasn't using the internet.12:10
johnxPaulFertser, nah, you and RST38h are *both* that guy :)12:10
PaulFertserjohnx: i think RST38h either likes arguing too much or dislikes my opinions too much ;)12:11
PaulFertserThere seems to be something personal in our conversations.12:11
johnxPaulFertser, nope. I think you're digging too deep. :)12:11
PaulFertserjohnx: straight to the source ;)12:12
Stskeepsdid we figure out if they actually cache supl data or not?12:13
lardmanthe chap at the summit said they do, I'm not so sure12:13
PaulFertserStskeeps: they seem to actually cache those.12:13
StskeepsPaulFertser: on n90012:13
lardmanah ok12:13
StskeepsRST38h: fwiw, gps fix when on wifi should work, afaik12:16
RST38hit does, I checked12:17
StskeepsRST38h: not sure if it needs a sim or not though. i think it might12:17
Stskeepsto get local position12:17
RST38hNo SIM, afaik12:17
SpeedEvilIt seems quite a bit slo2wer12:18
SpeedEvilfix from wifi vs fix from net12:18
RST38hof course, there is no coarse fix without cell ervice12:18
Stskeepsso two issues, it doesn't cache SUPL data, and second, you can't pre-cache supl data12:18
SpeedEvilRST38h: which is broken if you haven't moved.12:18
PaulFertserRST38h: "Smallest size: The GPS5300 NaviLink 4.0 solution integrates a complete GPS system into one chip"
RST38hWhat N900 calls "coarse fix" is location by cell tower12:18
RST38hYea, yea, smallest size12:19
SpeedEvilRST38h: I'm unsure about that.12:19
PaulFertserRST38h: "complete GPS system"12:19
SpeedEvilRST38h: as I was getting +-10m inside12:19
RST38hSpeed: with status bar showing "coarse"?12:19
lardmanhmm, who's sampp?12:19
SpeedEvilIIRC, I'll pay more attention next time12:19
RST38hSpeed: sounds unlikely :)12:19
lardmanactually ignore me12:20
RST38hlardman: Only if you start complaining about "Maemo5 emulator" =)12:20
DM_900hmmm... outta stock @ nokiausa didnt tak long12:20
StskeepsRST38h: i think we need to seperate bug report into "consider caching SUPL data" and "allow for pre-caching of SUPL data for travel purposes"12:20
RST38hStskeeps: You know what is gonna happen with those, or need a hint?12:21
PaulFertserStskeeps: and clarify standalone gps capabilities12:21
DM_900Klowner_: got your replacement yet?12:21
StskeepsRST38h: i don't say this without some degree of basis in reality.12:22
RST38hStskeeps: the keyword is "enhancement"12:22
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PaulFertserStskeeps: pre-caching ephemeris doesn't make much sense most of the time since they're valid for 2-4 hours at most. Usefulness of almanac depends on the chip capabilities, the almanac is valid for more than a month so if you just get a fix in advance, you'll have it available providing it's cached properly.12:22
RST38hstskeeps: there are critical bugs, low priority bugs, and below them are enhancements12:22
lardmanRST38h: What, Nintendo!12:22
johnxRST38h, the difference is that Stskeeps can actually drive over to Nokia HQ and slap someone with a frozen trout :)12:22
RST38hjohnx: I doubt that12:23
fredrinPaulFertser: is it not posible to precalculate the positions?12:23
lardmanyes it is12:23
lardmanthough requires some serious number crunching I understood12:23
RST38hStskeeps: Funny thing is, this strategy is not specific to Nokia. We do pretty much the same (enhancement? will do it sometime... in 10-20 years)12:23
fredrinlardman: or a table?12:23
PaulFertserfredrin: ublox provides some agps+ long-living precalculating ephemeris service to their customers, so some advances are possible.12:24
RST38hStskeeps: So, that bug tracker title should clearly indicate that it is a bug and [preferably] human lives were los over it12:24
RST38hlardman: Btw, what happened with that nintendo snafu?12:24
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kynkyno drnoksnes on maemo rep12:25
StskeepsRST38h: no supl cachng isa bug, for sure12:25
Stskeepsfor each gps fix, it will fetch 20kb data12:25
lardmankynde: good12:25
johnxRST38h, that they'd let him in the door with a paper bag that bears an unusual resemblance to a frozen trout?12:25
pekujakynky: there's probably an unofficial package available somewhere12:26
PaulFertserStskeeps: (separating tickets) first of all, the customers should get a clear understanding of the hardware capabilities, i think that's "normal" priority and should be solved first. Second, all available assitance data should be downloaded from the chip and cached before turning it off. Somebody should check if loading old data can in fact harm and take care of that when powering on the chip. That should be the second, probably "enhancement" ticket.12:26
lardmanjohnx: might have to be a multiple attack with frozen kippers then12:26
kynkylike qole ? but it a few versions behind12:26
SpeedEvilBad data certainly harms standalone.12:26
RST38hjohnx: I just doubt it will produce better effect than sacrificing a few rodents to the Tentacled One12:26
fredrinPaulFertser: and mixed with cellid data12:26
SpeedEvilI got no fix when mis-setting the date.12:26
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SpeedEvilWell - not setting it at all12:27
PaulFertserStskeeps: predownloading assistance data should be evaluated separately, probably it won't make any sense given the hardware.12:27
PaulFertserSpeedEvil: i think our u-blox chip just ignores the ephemeris it considers old.12:27
StskeepsPaulFertser: no, but it shouldn't try to get gps data when the data it got last was perfectly valid :P12:27
PaulFertserStskeeps: indeed.12:27
PaulFertserStskeeps: and also the ticket talks about some probably too aggressive high-level PM which should be discussed and fixed separately.12:28
johnxRST38h, point granted. caveat: it will only "produce better effect" if it is videoed and ends up on youtube :)12:28
PaulFertserStskeeps: the sane stratagy wrt gps PM should pe proposed, discussed and implemented.12:28
RST38hjohnx: Even then... :(12:28
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johnxRST38h, Seeing Nokia's CEO chased down the hall by Stskeeps swinging a frozen trout wildly will be hilarious *to me*. Watching someone sacrifice small furry mammals in a tiny pentagram inscribed on the garage floor: not quite as hilarious12:32
SpeedEvilAlso - which navilink is it12:32
PaulFertserSpeedEvil: even that is unknown for n900 :-|12:33
RST38hWell, that one I can confirm relatively easily12:33
RST38hjohnx: Neither sounds exciting to me =(12:33
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DantonicN800man, can't find a way to tether the n800 to the n900. maem-pan accordimg to the wiki?  doesnt explain how to set it up12:35
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Arkenoidantonic, ad hoc wifi?12:35
PaulFertserDantonicN800: if you want to know how to work with bluez4 PAN networking low-level (dbus-calls from command line) style i have some understandable examples.12:36
Arkenoijust connecting it as cellular phone does not work?12:36
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DantonicN800PaulFertser, yeah sure,  i just want to share my 3g with my n80012:38
DantonicN800my dumbphone does it but not the n900 :(12:38
PaulFertserDantonicN800: and later on there's a networking section, i wrote it after actually testing so it should work with any gnu/linux system.12:39
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RST38hN900 is reported to have Navilink 6.012:40
RST38hThat is NL550012:41
RST38hI have tried finding the motherboard pictures, but could not so far12:41
DantonicN800thanks for the links12:41
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DM_900shute sow some hirez ones yesterday12:41
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DM_900but where?12:42
DantonicN800man, this is annoying. :(12:42
RST38hthe disassembly video posted yesterday is not hires12:42
PaulFertserDantonicN800: feel free to ping me if you need any info about working with bluez4 cli style.12:43
nofpumorning all... my n900 keeps restarting itself... I see all sorts of speculation on the forums but cant find anything definitive... any hints? :)12:43
DM_900i thimg i was just going thru gog.e images12:43
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johnxnofpu, have you tried reflashing it?12:43
DantonicN800PaulFertser, i will ty.  i'll checkout the link tomorrow.  3am, gonna turn in.12:43
* VDVsx moos12:44
Stskeepsmoo vdvsx12:44
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* RST38h moos back12:44
* VDVsx is in a workshop about graphics&icons :)12:45
nofpujohnx: not yet... what's the best firmware? im new to maemo but write lots of c++ and Qt so want to hack around a bit :)12:45
johnxnofpu, the best one is the latest one released from Nokia. same one you're on now actually, but it's usually worth a fresh start to see if that might just clear things up12:46
johnx(my suggestion was mostly a "if nothing else works" kind of thing)12:46
RST38hRobert Lamb on tranquilizers in the space station: 'Sure, it hardly makes for a civilized evening aboard ISS, but it beats someone blowing the hatch because they think they saw something crawling on one of the solar panels.'"12:46
johnxhave you installed many applications already?12:46
nofpujohnx: as per not really... but maybe a nasty one @_12:47
* RST38h remembers reading that on the British Navy ships, the whole crew has been permanently kept intoxicated, to prevent rioting12:47
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RST38hI.e. running out of rum was a bigger problem than running out of drinkable water12:48
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johnxnofpu, yup. those would be the instructions to follow. if you've installed stuff from extras-devel or extras-testing, that certainly might be a culprit12:49
johnxHonestly, I've heard of other people having reboot problems right out of the box, but I haven't had the same experience, so I haven't looked into it much12:49
javispedrousing the webclient from  the n810 is awful12:49
johnxthe IRC webclient?12:50
johnxyeah, I could believe that12:50
lardman~curse gsl for not building easily12:51
infobotMay you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, gsl for not building easily !12:51
nofpujohnx: thanks I'll try a reflash... maybe it's firefox  - that's what usually kills my desktop :)12:51
RST38hjavis: No SSH?12:51
nofpufirefox, openssh, load-applet, rootsh, vim... that's all I've installed I think12:51
javispedrono host to ssh into12:52
javispedrobut dont worry12:52
johnxnofpu, heavy flash sites don't always behave the best. If someone told me there was a memory leak in flash, I'd be likely to not doubt them12:52
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javispedroi should pay attention instead of wasting time here =)12:52
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lardmanwhich NaviLink chipset is it then?12:53
nofpuregardless of the restarts, it's still making my G1 jealous12:53
SpeedEvillardman: work it out, fill it in.12:53
lardmanthe N810 has the 5300, i.e. version 4.012:53
SpeedEvilIf the FM transmitter is indeed seperate, it's unlikley to be the 6, including bluetotoh12:54
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lardmanhmm, is there no wiki page listing the hw in each device with links to the spec sheets?12:56
arachnistis there a hack to give unlimited time in the second game mode in bounce? :>12:57
lardmanWe went through the whole list with links when the kernel source came out12:58
lardmanbut was probably in this channel12:58
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DangerMaushmmm no links on this to th emobo pics..12:59
DangerMauswhat box was i on12:59
* DangerMaus bangs head against wall13:00
lardmanSpeedEvil: anyway, my point was going to be that the FM and BT chips are known, I wonder if the NaviLink solution just packages up their existing chips on a package13:01
lardmanin which case it might still be a later NaviLink version13:01
lardmanwhy do we think it's a NaviLink anyway?13:02
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lardmanDo we even know what the GPS binaries are?13:06
lardmanas that's where the info about the N810's one being a 5300 came from13:06
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SpeedEvillardman: it would be very uncommon13:07
SpeedEvillardman: for one chipmaker to package anothers chips13:07
lardmanof course13:07
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DangerMaus  though the images are not high high rez might be able to id comparing to other chip pics13:31
* frals just ordered a sheevaplug to play with until the n900 gets here13:33
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* ccooke watches his wife start setting up her new n900 13:36
ccookewell, putting it together and transferring sim etc13:36
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mececcooke, damn, that's cool. My wife said she'd take one if I pay for it.13:38
arachnistfrals: i have an openrd-client13:39
arachnistfrals: really nice piece of hardware13:39
fralsit looks really neat :)13:39
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mecehave any of you had the problem with the N900 that the im clients have trouble reconnecting after the device has switched from wlan to 3g?13:40
Stskeeps doesnt' look bad either13:40
SpeedEvilmece: what client?13:40
SpeedEvilmece: I know pidgin does on my desktop13:41
SpeedEvil(changing IP)13:41
mecewell telepathy, naturally :P13:41
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meceSkype works well but ovi and gtalk have trouble.13:42
arachnistmece: no problems with jabber/ovi/gtalk here, only skype, sip and gadugadu are causing problems13:42
meceif the ip switch should trigger a logout-login procedure for all the clients I think we'd be in the clear on this one. or does it?13:43
ccookemece: I already pay my wife's contract (it makes things easier)... and she was due an upgrade already13:43
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* SpeedEvil tries no SIM, no wifi GPS lock indoors.13:43
mecehmm.. well I've only done it once, so I can't really say it's a repeating problem.13:43
mececcooke, my wife just bought an N95, and she really likes it. it was cheap too :)13:43
lardmanSpeedEvil: I hope you've stocked up with rations13:44
mecelardman, LOL13:44
meceI'm off. ta.13:44
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ccookeThe whole thing basically cost me an extra £5 a month. Given the n810 has lasted her more than two year, paying an extra £120 over two years seems... a good deal ;-)13:45
SpeedEvillardman: I'm going to try outside - but trying that first would involve getting out of bed.13:46
SpeedEvillardman: oddly, it was reporting high signal on two sats for a moment13:46
SpeedEvilmaybe that was simply the app being confused tho13:46
SpeedEvil22 and 1613:47
lardmanI had the occasional sat signal iirc, but quickly got bored of it13:47
SpeedEvilBut after 30s of sat signals of that strength it should have a time fix, even if not a position fix13:47
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lardmanI've just extracted the rootfs from the N900 update, will mount it and do some searching for the gps binaries13:50
lardmanbut might not be 'till tomorrow13:50
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BluesLeewhere can i find additional codecs for the default media player in n900 (mp4 format)13:55
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DangerMausyeah good question ran into the need14:01
BluesLeeits one from youtube, downloaded via downloadhelper14:02
BluesLeemp4 is a kind of container, right?14:02
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BluesLeea stupid questiona stupid question: how get i su on the terminal app?14:03
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yannjWhat package of QT to install to use QtWidget in scratchbox?14:05
SpeedEvilhmm - it does in fact seem to get an indoor fix - though only after booting outdoors14:09
SpeedEvil(with no cell-assist, and no sim)14:09
StskeepsSpeedEvil: so you just disproved the bug14:11
StskeepsSpeedEvil: maybe it's the antenna then14:11
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Corsachmhm, n810 doesn't usb charge, does it?14:16
SpeedEvilStskeeps: I'm unsure14:16
SpeedEvilStskeeps: It had wifi connection a couple of times.14:16
BluesLeehow do i get root on the n900, what is the default passwort?14:16
arachnistBluesLee: install rootshell package14:17
arachnistBluesLee: you'll be able to "sudo gainroot" after that14:17
SpeedEvilStskeeps: I hadn't killed that properly. And it would only answer the 'will it lock indoors after having a lock previously from net'14:17
BluesLeearachnist: from which repo?14:18
arachnistdon't remember14:19
fluxhmm.. on n900, as I don't have tilde in my keyboard, how do I enter it? the sym-dialog just toggles it, I suppose it works for accented characters..14:19
Stskeepsflux: ~ + space14:19
fluxah, too obious :)14:20
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fluxthr dsme wsy it works on native finnish keyboard (but I use us layout usually)14:20
fluxstskeeps, thanks14:21
BluesLeei should activate the Rd mode via the flash tool which is only available for windos?14:21
StskeepsBluesLee: just instal 'rootsh14:21
divinegodis it possible to install ffmpeg gstreamer plugins?14:22
fluxstskeeps, I suppose you don't have a trick for extending xterm on-screen buttons too, do you?-)14:22
Stskeepsflux: i wish. hack the source?14:23
Stskeepsit's OSS.14:23
arachnisti have ~ on | as on-screen buttons in xterm14:23
arachnistbut i don't remember how i did that14:23
fluxarachnist, on n810 or n900?14:23
arachnistflux: N90014:24
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pekujaany Saunalahti customers here, by the way?14:25
pekujawondering if they've started shipping N900's yet14:25
fluxarachnist, great, thanks! I'll pass the url to other people too :)14:25
pekujaI guess I'll check their forums.14:25
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pekujalooks like they are shipping14:30
pekujahaven't heard about mine yet, but I ordered pretty late14:30
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pekujahoping for next week14:31
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_JP_is SSHFS available yet for N900?14:32
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zemmin extras-testing14:39
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DangerMauswhoa! almost tripped on charging cable///14:43
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Ashenburgis the extras-testing repo ?14:43
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pekujaDangerMaus: living dangerously?14:43
pekujaDangerMaus: unless you have a Mac, perhaps14:43
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DangerMausno no the 90014:43
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StskeepsDangerMaus: you don't want to rip out your usb port14:44
DangerMausgot tangles up in the rats nesst of chargers ect...14:44
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DangerMauslike whats his  name14:44
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DangerMauson the prototype yeasterday14:44
Stskeepslike zerojay's14:45
DangerMausgotta love surfacemount14:45
DangerMauseven though surface mount somethings still need a pin or 2 through the pcb14:45
fnordianslipAre the buggered USB ports happening on the 300 devices or the production models?14:46
DangerMauseven oif just to secure them14:46
DangerMaushe said prototype so prob b4 the 30014:46
fnordiansliptexrat was one of the 300 too14:46
fnordianslipis, rather14:47
DangerMaushe pulled out his too?14:48
fnordianslipunless my brain is failing me, yes14:49
* DangerMaus pats his and offers it some chocolate so his wont fall apart14:49
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SpeedEvilFilling the case with melted chocolate as a strain relief may void your warranty.14:51
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Ashenburguh guys, have there been any issues regarding surfing on wifi? it doesn't load pages after a while14:53
Ashenburgif I d/c and reconnect it works for a little while14:54
fnordianslipsometimes i get a white screen in the browser, which can be kicked into life by scrolling the white page14:54
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DangerMaushavent noticed Ashenburg im only on wifi still as i havent installed a sim yet14:54
DangerMausand the only other isue on wifi is a faulty rauter here than i have to go knck now and then14:55
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Ashenburgcould it be like a powersaving function thats behind it?14:56
StskeepsAshenburg: try to disable power saving and see if it helps14:57
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DangerMauswell we got about 2 months till we'll see if everyones usb port falls off14:59
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fnordianslipDangerMaus: that would be a shame15:01
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DangerMausthat seems to be about when the 2 we know about went15:02
v2pxis xchat from extras-devel usable?15:02
fnordianslipyes, but don't change the settings in the gui15:03
DangerMausnother ever goes to production without something going awry15:03
fnordianslipedit the conf15:03
fnordianslip^ re xchat15:03
v2pxbecause it explodes if i change settings in the gui?15:03
fnordianslipyes (a little)15:03
v2pxokay thanks15:04
Ashenburgpower settings seems to have fixed it, I have much better youtube streaming as well onw15:05
Ashenburgcheers :)15:05
lardmanhmm, don't you just hate it when you loose some code15:06
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fnordiansliplardman: yep.  shouldn't ever happen though15:07
fnordiansliphas it gone, or you just can't find it?15:07
lardmanI've been flipping sb installations15:07
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lardmanand deleted some old ones....15:07
lardmanso fingers crossed I have a copy somewhere15:07
fnordianslipu could try hosting a main mercurial repo on another box, and syncing the sb installs up with that15:08
lardmanis ok now, have all my targets in the same sb15:08
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lardmannot the end of the world, just a python calculator app with plugins that are useful for my work15:09
fnordianslip deepest condolences on your loss15:09
lardmanthanks :)15:10
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lardmananyone know how well the titchy BT dongles work?15:10
fnordiansliplike the barcode thingy15:10
lardmanlike the ones in the SmartQ 715:10
lardmanfnordianslip: thanks15:10
lardmanfnordianslip: I need to move it to Qt and allow plugins15:10
TomaszDgood day15:10
lardmanhi TomaszD15:10
fnordiansliphad a face off with an iphone in the office the other day.15:10
fnordianslipat barcode scanning15:11
lardmanwell their code works better for some things at least15:11
fnordianslipmbarcode scanned more tags, but the iphone app was obviously more rounded15:11
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lardmanoh right, I'm happy now :)15:11
lardmandatamatrix codes are still not good15:12
fnordianslipdon't know much about it, just playing15:12
lardmanthe code is slow, but I've just seen that there seems to be lots of options you can pass it, so it probably needs tuning too15:12
lardmanbut yeah, mbarcode is rough around the edges15:12
lardmanbut I aim to improve it :)15:12
fnordianslipcan it cope with multiple barcodes in view?15:12
lardmanthe backend can, but I think I just return the first one15:13
lardmannot sure how to handle that case in code really15:13
fnordianslipmany things i tried to scan had multiple codes next to each other15:13
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lardmanoh right15:13
fnordianslipwell, a few.  it wasn't a scanning marathon, just a distraction from work for a few mins15:14
lardmanit would be possible to return more than one, but I'm not sure how well that will work with the usecases15:14
DangerMausonce scanned is the reader sposed to get info on the code or you gotta do that monualy still?15:14
StskeepsTomaszD: l10n stuff going well?15:15
lardmanI've disabled the webscraping code as it was segfaulting, and is generally crap as I wrote it in an afternoon15:15
lardmanDangerMaus: Once I move to Qt, someone can write some decent code using e.g. Python15:15
lardmanDangerMaus: 2D barcode contents are generally handled, for non-i-mode stuff, e.g. urls, vcards, sms:, tel:, etc15:16
fnordianslipit identified a metallica CD by name, for me.  that was the best outcome i got.  the iphone app gave some amazon links, but that's just icing on the cake15:16
DangerMauskool i was playing with it yesterday thinking  of the iphone and well... not done yet15:16
lardmanfnordianslip: if you upgrade to the latest version it won't give you the name any more15:16
lardmanjust the barcode15:16
lardmanbut I'm happy to incorporate any webscraping code if anyone's bored15:16
fnordianslipi've not tired the version in devel yet - is it better to upgrade it now?15:16
lardmanor AWS code for that matter15:16
lardmanfnordianslip: 0.0.8?15:17
lardmanhmm, I guess I need to promote it again then, strange15:17
lardmanfnordianslip: no real changes yet, some stuff added that's not working - like being able to open an image file and scan it rather than using the camera15:17
lardmanbut having troubles with GDK15:17
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fnordianslipi have 007 at the mo, having not upgraded when i last checked the state of devel15:18
lardmanI only uploaded it as it fixed a segfault for diablo users which stopped them completelyt15:18
lardmanfnordianslip: stick with than unless you get segfaults from the webscraper15:18
fnordianslipdinosaurs :)15:18
DangerMauslooking for version15:18
fnordianslipmy 800 is sulking somewhere from lack of attention15:19
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DangerMausi dont know whatever was in testing the other dat15:20
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fnordiansliphmm.  trying to build some C++ code in sb that normally builds python bindings, but configure is saying this:15:23
fnordianslipchecking whether python distutils can build an extension module... no15:23
fnordianslipany idea how to ix it?15:24
fnordianslipfix, even15:24
lardmanno, but look in the configure script to see what the check is15:24
VenomrushWorld Cup draw = EASY! (England Algeria Slovenia Yankee) England can joke through to the semis, without Beckham, even the final!15:24
fnordianslipoh no, not the septics, they'll beat us for sure15:25
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andre__Sigh, I want a "No thanks" button in Talk. People like "linuxeventually" send users to -devel without warning. By purpose.15:31
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fnordianslipandre__: +115:31
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Stskeepsandre__: "report ost"15:32
andre__well... what is that for I always wondered?15:33
Stskeepspointing it to moderators15:33
DangerMaustelling the mods to have a look at it15:34
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andre__so i should send the talk threads 35953, 35925 to the moderators. hmm, okay.15:35
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lardmanlet me look15:37
Venomrushwe more mods i reckon as community will growth dramatically over the coming months15:37
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Venomrushthe n900 right now generating at least 20 30 new threads a day15:37
fnordianslipdo we have a working powertop somewhere?15:38
* SpeedEvil wonders that too15:38
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Stskeepsfnordianslip: afaik15:38
RST38hStskeeps: Report button is not for reporting threads you do not agree with15:38
fnordianslipStskeeps: AFAUK, yes or no ?15:39
lardmanandre__: they seem to have edited their posts?15:39
* RST38h installed Fennec and suffered.15:39
lardmanah no, but I will soon edit it15:39
andre__no edits i think15:40
Stskeepsfnordianslip: isn't it just in extras or SDK/tool15:40
andre__it's just dangerouns to send normal people to -devel without warning... but we all know that so i shut up now :)15:40
StskeepsRST38h: no, but if it's harmful posts in the wide perspective..15:40
RST38hStskeeps: Still, that is not the way to deal with them15:40
RST38hPutting a warning in huge letters on top of tmo main page may work better:15:41
fnordianslipStskeeps: only repo i've not got enabled is devel, and apt-cache search doesn't find it15:41
StskeepsRST38h: on the other hand i would like to see tmo return to sanity, which may need some policing as newcomers aren't as well behaved15:41
RST38h"Please, DO NOT enable Extras-Devel unless you are a developer who knows what he is doing. MaemoSDK is NOT an "N900 emulator" and cannot be used as such."15:42
fnordianslipis the package "powertop" or something else?15:42
RST38hOh, add something about red-pill to the above statement15:42
Venomrushdevel was where i got my haze plugin :p15:43
Venomrushif someone asks where u get msn + yahoo etc plugins? id say go to devel :p15:44
Venomrushand get haze15:44
Venomrushas for some apparently reason it's not in extras-testing yet15:44
RST38hStskeeps: tmo is not getting back to sanity, unless these newcomers simply go away.15:45
RST38hStskeeps: No amount of policing will fix that. So, your only hope is their tiny attention span.15:45
fnordianslipor help em all brick their devices so they just go away15:46
v2pxeh.. hm. what is the moobox app? :S15:46
lardmanandre__: let me know if you need/want more15:47
RST38hOh. Shit.15:47
RST38hMy laptop LCD is broken.15:47
fnordianslipDisplays are for wimps15:47
andre__lardman, thanks!15:47
* RST38h wonders what he is gonna do now =(15:48
fnordianslipssh into it15:48
fnordianslipis it bleeding, cracked or just not on at all15:49
RST38happarently cracked15:49
DangerMausRST38h, that a new lappie?15:49
RST38h1 year old15:49
derfHopefully you got a 3 year warranty?15:50
DangerMauspull out the 900 and ssh into it15:50
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RST38hderf: I cannot locate the papers15:52
RST38hThey are probably somewhere around though15:52
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derfAs long as you have the serial #, they should be able to figure it out.15:53
SpeedEvilRST38h: sat on it?15:55
* DangerMaus votes for sat on it15:56
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fnordianslipok the 3 minute silence for RST38h's laptop was up ages ago16:02
arachnistnothing like being able to walk over your own laptop16:03
* arachnist a happy owner of a thinkpad x30016:03
fnordianslipget a toughbook16:03
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Stskeepsb-man17: how's progress on installer?16:05
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b-man17Stskeeps: working on the ununstallation mode16:06
* SpeedEvil lost last two laptops to sat on and trod on.16:06
fnordiansliparachnist: wtf?16:07
Stskeepsb-man17: k, uninstallation is a bit hard but ok :P16:07
* b-man17 is having a hell of a time trying to get esbox to work properly in ubuntu karmic xP16:07
DangerMaushehe  SpeedEvil  the only hting i ever did was drop a lappie down an esculator and fried the hdd16:07
DangerMausand scratched it up16:08
arachnistfnordianslip: don't ask ;>16:08
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fnordiansliparachnist: which one were you?16:08
DangerMausand managed to RMA the hdd16:08
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cosmo_does respond?16:09
arachnistfnordianslip: none16:09
cosmo_i guess it's still running on a 77016:09
cosmo_now it responded but is really slow16:10
cosmo_how do i promote package to extras? the instructions in wiki are not valid:
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b-man17has anyone had this problem before? when i try to open a new python project in esbox i keep getting "org.maemo.esbox.python.project was unable to load class; org.maemo.esbox.internal.python.project.ui.wizard.ESboxPythonProjectWizard" can anyone help with this?16:15
Lynoure says "To avoiding such cases, we create our “.cpp” file in such direction or its sub-folders: /scratchbox/users/maemo/home/maemo/", however, my scratchbox does not have users/maemo, it has users/lynoureDoes that mean there is something wonky with my scratchbox install (used Nokia installer for that) or is that normal16:20
Lynourethat it uses my normal user for that?16:20
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derfLynoure: That's normal AFAIK.16:22
Lynourederf: thanks, I'll proceed then and won't worry about it for now :)16:23
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JinoFixxhi all16:25
JinoFixxmaybe its not the right place but.. i've a n900 and want to add a msn account16:26
JinoFixxskype is there but i can't find msn16:26
BluesLeeJinoFixx: not the right place, why?16:27
derfSo why is Speex in non-free?16:27
StskeepsJinoFixx:, search for msn :)16:27
JinoFixxthanks Stskeeps16:29
JinoFixxhmm my terminal doesnt find apt-get16:29
redeemanJinoFixx: need root16:29
JinoFixxah ok16:29
JinoFixxthere is it16:29
BluesLeeJinoFixx: install rootsh16:29
JinoFixxalready did16:30
BluesLeewhere can i find drnoksnes?16:30
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BluesLeeits not in the extra feeds anymore16:30
odin_does the reflasher have a way or saving the current MMC data from device to PC-host ?16:31
lardmanBluesLee: it's open source sw, you should be able to find the source and build it yourself16:31
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fralshmm.. ... "Why? You work in Nokia on the new firmware? I'm sorry, but what i listed is nothing special, but something the average non-geek user will expect. I'm not a normal user, but i don't request miracles, considering the firmware which the phone is being sold with is roughly already 5 weeks old."16:32
BluesLeelardman: i found it on thanks16:33
JinoFixxanother thing16:33
JinoFixxinstalled and running openarena16:33
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JinoFixxhow to quit it ?16:33
BluesLeeJinoFixx: openarena? from which repo?16:33
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BluesLeecool stuff16:33
fralsthink ctrl backspace or smth should do it16:34
jebbaJinoFixx: does the ctrl-backspace key get you to the taskdesktopthing?16:34
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gn_hello everyone,is any work done on traveller applet?16:36
JinoFixxaccount plugin butterfly is safe?16:37
StskeepsJinoFixx: it has bugs and hence is in extras-devel.16:37
JinoFixxwhat kind of bugs16:38
Stskeepsso it might eat your mother16:38
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lardmangn_: what is it?16:40
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LoCusFany word on iNES on N900?16:43
gn_lardman: the project ideas page(SOC) specifies improving the location based travellerapplet..16:43
StskeepsLoCusF: there was a minor legal crisis16:44
JinoFixxmsn account does not log in16:45
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LoCusFStskeeps: I know but still :)16:45
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lardmangn_: oh right16:45
lardmangn_: not heard of it16:45
gn_has anyone tried with that?16:46
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PaulFertserLOL: "Those fixing bugs don't know when Nokia will release firmware with the fixes."16:47
lardmanwell that's true I imagine16:47
Shapeshifterthere's no urxvt package, right?16:47
Shapeshifterany hints why it might be a bad idea making one? If not, I'll make one as soons as I get my n900.16:48
PaulFertserlardman: but that sounds so utterly nonsense to anyone who spent enough time in the free software world.16:48
cehtehShapeshifter: without the urxvtd it might be bit memory intensive, otherwise i'd like it16:49
Shapeshifterwell urxvtd would of course be part of it. It could be a nice solution for people who use everal terminals at all time.16:49
PaulFertserAnother one: "New features are definitely nothing that developers are allowed to talk about"16:49
cehtehwell try to compile/port it16:50
cehtehi'd prefer it, but i can live with xterm16:50
Shapeshiftercehteh: ah, rxvt-unicode compiles no problem for ARM. I'll do it when I have time16:50
cehtehas long it isnt gnome-terminal :P16:50
StskeepsPaulFertser: if you want to try and change anything, come with constructive and weighted proposals16:50
Stskeepsridicuing nokia gets old :)16:50
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PaulFertserStskeeps: yeah, i know, just can't resist seeing so many weirdest stuff :(16:52
PaulFertserStskeeps: the constructive proposal is the one and still the same: being more open to the community. That's something discussed to death already but i see using e.g. public bugtracking is still optional for nokia devs, etc... Well, nokia's nokia, they still do not understand a thing about a proper community, trying to bend all the good ideas to suit their marketing needs :(16:54
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StskeepsPaulFertser: i don't personally believe in community control of maemo. i do believe in a community distro of it where community decides, and a shared core where we cooperate on and we drag/merge fixes/features from eachother.16:56
PaulFertserStskeeps: if nokia didn't talk so much about the "community" and "open-source" there would be less expectations and hence less frustration. But nokia's playing a dirty game here they talk, they raise expectations, and then they do whatever their marketing decides.16:57
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Stskeepsand a distinct need to keep hardware out of anythng related to the platform SW :P16:58
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Stskeepscos at the end of the day, business decisions is what will drive maemo.16:59
PaulFertserStskeeps: you told that. And that means that the whole "community" thing is a lie given the bigger picture. That's what bothers me most in this maemo thing...17:00
odin_"Operation disabled due to low memory"  is that something to be concerned about ?  I have just RSS reader open and it was trying to open a browser window from it17:00
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StskeepsPaulFertser: that said, on the shared platform things are really opening up. community has been about apps -on top of maemo-17:02
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JinoFixxrdate can be installed?17:03
PaulFertserStskeeps: haha, it's not the community thing. Because then nokia changes the low-level API and voila, all your apps are obsolete and need rewriting in qt pseudo-language. ;)17:03
StskeepsPaulFertser: and that there hasn't been sufficient community interest/collaboration spaces/etc for system development. it's first recently it's started to be more of an issue17:04
PaulFertserStskeeps: community apps on top of maemo is no different to symbian or j2me apps.17:04
odin_PaulFertser, whats the issue ?  its still X11 underneath17:04
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PaulFertserStskeeps: (sufficient interest) given the nokia attitude and urge to control it's no wonder :|17:05
odin_PaulFertser, Nokia are "opening the door" for a chinese firm to copy to basic hardware model, chinese are good a copying they are not very good at coming up with ideas17:05
StskeepsPaulFertser: nah.. it's a bit of that community has no way of strongarming17:05
Stskeepsand that we are a lazy community17:06
PaulFertserodin_: hm, integration? X is everywhere anyway, but you need a system-level, toolkit-level and other-level integration for many nice things to have.17:06
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Stskeepsexpecting nokia to fix things instead of trying to work with other people in commnity to fix them17:06
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Stskeepsthat's why i'm so tired of endless discussions and flames.17:06
jebbaShapeshifter: if you use rxvt-unicode to ssh into your n900, i recommend you also do something like   `echo "export TERM=xterm-color" >> ~/.profile`  to get things working well.17:06
odin_PaulFertser, but Qt is open-source, some chinaman will make similar hardware soon enough, and they do understand the really-big-picture17:06
Shapeshifterjebba: yep17:07
StskeepsPaulFertser: but instead of loking at open source, it's more important to look at governancne.17:07
odin_at the moment I'm trying to fix my root partition before it runs out of space, will that cause the error "Operatoin disable due to low memory" ?17:07
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PaulFertserStskeeps: having more stuff motivates more people to participate. And when you're faced with nasty bme, non-standard ways of monitoring battery and other stuff like that you suddenly became much less motivated. That was up to nokia to form a real community around but they didn't need it.17:07
odin_what is needed now is more hardware devices like mameo platforms but from other manufacurers17:08
StskeepsPaulFertser: blah blah. DSME was requested for years and noone did anytihng about it when it -was- open sourced.17:08
Stskeepssame with the wifi driver17:08
type_tStskeeps . the learning curve is too long..17:09
Stskeepsif you want something open sourced you have to treat it like someone giving their newborn baby into your arms, receive it with grace, nuture it and raise it well17:09
kuskqso i installed supertux. but after i have chosen level and the map is loaded i cant get any further?17:09
odin_and I think these devices will come now, people (from the far east) will see the problems with going the iphone or android routes17:09
jebbageez. I don't know why you are dissing nokia so much. So some devs use their internal bugzilla. They probably do that cuz they've been doing it that way for 10 years and are all set up. But it's still damn open. Show me any huge company that is more open. I mean the freakin bugmaster is lurking this channel for god's sake. And nokia responds directly (and *quickly*) to bug reports.17:10
PaulFertserStskeeps: (opensource) hm, no? You just release the code from the very beginning and that's it.17:10
odin_those people just want to make and sell devices (not software or firmware, thats just a cost to them)17:10
StskeepsPaulFertser: why bothering to open source when it will just gather dust?17:10
odin_what is DSME ?17:10
StskeepsPaulFertser: legal checks are not cheap.17:10
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jebbanokia *does* already have a "real" community too. What is this room? It's the size of #fedora and over half the size of #debian even. There's a  billion posts in talk.m.o.  Thousands of reports in bugzilla. etc.....17:11
Stskeepsjebba: :nod:17:11
PaulFertserStskeeps: it won't. I'm sure if nokia's released all necessary stuff to use n8x0 in a sane way from the beginning, they'd attract a much more clueful and powerful community. But they lost the momentum, so people moved to the beagleboard etc.17:11
StskeepsPaulFertser: and the result of that is stuff like the touch book.. nothing truely impressive17:11
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odin_PaulFertser, the only device I wanted was the N900 to me the N8xx product do not fit any market I know of17:12
PaulFertserStskeeps: beagleboard is impressive17:12
jebbapeople moved to the beagelboard?? haaha17:12
jebbauh huh. BB is cool, but n900 is gogin to have 100x size of beagle community....17:12
StskeepsPaulFertser: most beagle work is still done by professionals17:12
PaulFertserjebba: yes, clueful devs prefer to work on beagleboard.17:12
jebbaplus you can't even get beagle board...17:12
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jebbatotally different purpose than n900 anyway.17:13
StskeepsPaulFertser: anyway, how about less talking and more hacking?17:13
* RST38h moos mournfully17:13
StskeepsPaulFertser: did you talk to the android kernel guy?17:13
RST38hStskeeps: talking is easier and more satisfying =)17:13
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PaulFertserRST38h: exactly17:13
Shapeshifterbeagleboard looks cool17:13
StskeepsRST38h: sigh17:13
odin_can you flash the Nokia image to a beagleboard ?17:14
jebbabeagleboard is cool. Just cant get it. Easier to get an n900....17:14
type_tok lets Talk and Hack at the same time..17:14
odin_or is it only useful for the kernel work ?17:14
odin_I'm getting there folks.. only had the device a week now... still working through simple issues :)17:14
PaulFertserStskeeps: not yet :(17:15
RST38hCome back when you do =)17:15
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StskeepsPaulFertser: right, - i personally don't want to hear another rant until you show you're for a working community instead of a moaning and ranting community :)17:16
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Stskeepsthen you have real issues to rant about17:16
RST38h"Mental-health workers sent to Afghanistan weeks after losing five of their own in Ft. Hood shootings." <=== nothing like WashPost to entertain my at the time of gloom =)17:16
StskeepsBME is closed, that's how reality is right now. does this top you doing anything specifically technically? if yes, let's work towards fixing tthose.17:17
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* Stskeeps wonders if karmic is dropping characters from his keyboard17:17
fredrini can has rant?17:18
Shapeshifterlol but "laptop like performance" is a bit of an overstatement regarding the beagleboard17:18
Shapeshifter10-years-old laptop like performance maybe.17:18
odin_whats so interesting about BME anyway ?  (Battery Monitor something?)17:18
fredrinwtf is beagleboard?17:18
fredrincan you show it off to girls and pick the up?17:18
type_tgood job..17:18
Shapeshifterfredrin: google.17:18
Shapeshifterfredrin: possibly17:18
Shapeshifterif you put it in a golden purse17:19
Shapeshifteror something17:19
andre__beagleboards are not attractive per se. we've got one in the office17:19
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odin_beagleboard it looks to be a PCB with a mini-computer on it, based around ARM and stuff... I can see it useful for kernel development but not much else (as its missing the actual hardware the N900 provides)17:19
Stskeepsodin_: it's a torn in the eye of people who are religiously only into open source. it's the battery charging daemon. nokia have said they don't mind distribution of nokia software to nokia devices, so there's no blocker for them to use it in their alternative OS'es17:19
Stskeepsodin_: so it's really more of a religious issue17:20
odin_Stskeeps, wow a daemon that can charge my batteries ... not need to plug it in anymore ??  ha ha ha17:20
Stskeepsodin_: OK, that -handles- battery charging/management :P17:20
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suihkulokkibefore it was bme and wifi driver being closed17:21
suihkulokkinow wifi is open17:21
andre__the ranting crowd just moves on... :-P17:21
Stskeepsyeah.. :P17:21
odin_Stskeeps, I have no problem with "binary blobs freely distributed" providing they are 1) Regularly maintained, fatal/serious bugfixes can propagate in days 2) they have an open API which is supported and documented17:21
Stskeepsandre__: is an interesting altrenative17:21
ShapeshifterI think it can even play some h.26417:22
suihkulokkibut, wifi being open didn't cause a surge of hackers hacking the wifi driver forward17:22
Stskeepsodin_: i agree, but not so much about days. i can't even promise days in open source :P17:22
suihkulokkiso why did so many people want it open sourced, if they had no intention to modify the code once it was opened?17:22
odin_Stskeeps, there is just the issue of, I want to upgrade my kernel, how do I relink your blob to it to address, i.e. the blob should not hold back kernel releases for the agreed lifecycle of it17:23
Stskeepsodin_: oh, kernel blobs i hate completely. this is a userland blob.17:23
PaulFertsersuihkulokki: to be able to recompile it in a clean way for any distro? To be able to implement kernel-level battery monitoring as per power_supply specs?17:23
odin_Stskeeps, ah but when its open source you can fix it yourself if its really a problem, sure lots of open source has fixes in days17:23
* RST38h sighs17:24
PaulFertsersuihkulokki: and to have a possibility to fix any problems when you actually face them?17:24
StskeepsPaulFertser: why the need to recompile it? why he need to put it in kernel-level? :)17:24
Stskeepsit works. as it should.17:24
jebbai completely agree the BME etc should be free software. Get real.  And the flasher too. I mean WTF? But i doubt it's going to get opened this way.17:24
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PaulFertserStskeeps: recompile to use the libraries you want to use atm. And kernel-level power_supply api is a well-established interface used everywhere except n8x0.17:25
Stskeepsjebba: there was actually a discussion of opening the flasher and asking for technical reasons but noone could really come up with that many..17:25
andre__jebba, good technical instead of religious arguments are more convincing to those people deciding about it...17:25
Stskeepsso the discussion kinda died again17:25
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lardmanPaulFertser: sorry for the late reply, but really you need to try to understand that Nokia are a company, not an open source project17:26
jebbaStskeeps: clearly should be opened though. You should at least concede that... I mean, why not close off everything then?  Cuz you want to leverage the community.  For example, perhaps PaulFertser will spend 5 days watching BME and running powertop or something. He will try different builds etc....17:26
andre__well, it was offered to opensource the flasher. but basically not many people were interested. plus there's been the 0xffffff project already17:26
PaulFertserlardman: then they shouldn't talk so much about the community and openness when in fact they want to control everything instead of collaborating with hackers.17:26
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* w00t dons the asbestos underwear and grabs the popcorn17:26
andre__PaulFertser, do they talk so much about it?17:27
andre__maybe we have different receptions17:27
PaulFertserandre__ [n=andre@Maemo/community/bugmaster/andre]17:27
StskeepsPaulFertser: they would probably be more open if they didn't have to constantly argue :)17:27
PaulFertserStskeeps: lol17:27
* Stskeeps goes back to doing real openness work.17:27
* andre__ off to fix the holes in his pockets. literally.17:28
jebbaConnected to Asterisk currently running on Nokia-N900-42-11 (pid = 3016)17:28
w00twhen i get my popcorn and settle down for entertainment, everyone goes way :(17:28
lardmanPaulFertser: life is not black and white17:28
jebbait's pink and green17:29
PaulFertserandre__: compare nokia's tablets with motorola "linux-based" phones. You'll see the difference. Nokia raises expectations and then gets everything done as would a typical company do.17:29
odin_Stskeeps, the BME issue is one of lion batterys blowing up, causing injury possible death, so its understandable why its not open source17:29
jebbaPaulFertser: where's motorola's channel with lead developers and their bugmaster?17:29
PaulFertserodin_: ok, tell me how to make my nokia bl-5C go off, i'll do an experiment.17:29
lardmanPaulFertser: you sound like a zeolot17:29
andre__PaulFertser, I won't google for motorola now, nope.17:29
StskeepsPaulFertser: you have the freedom to do so even without BME.17:30
andre__vague argument, based on reception...17:30
PaulFertserjebba: that's what i'm talking about, there's community, bugtracker, some open-source apps, etc. But it's still closed as hell.17:30
jebbawhat happens if you don't run the BME anyway?17:30
SpeedEvilodin_: The safety stuff is internal to the battery - at least in the case of explosions. You can make battery longevity poorer17:30
jebba"closed as hell" is quite an overstatement.17:30
lardmanPaulFertser: no it's not17:30
lardmanPaulFertser: you really haven't been paying attention17:30
PaulFertserjebba: i think the device would probably shut off due to some mystic watchdog. At least that's what i got with n810 and debian in 65 seconds.17:30
lardmando you have a device?17:30
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lardmanhave you setup the SDK?17:30
jebbaanyway, i'm gonna muck with asterisk see if i can do a cleaner 1.6 or perhaps rebuild a kernel for kicks  (though I too will barf on the binary blobs in kernel waaaaah)17:31
PaulFertserlardman: my friend has n810. I've used my usual arm toolchain for the kernel compilation. And debian an arm already has gcc etc to compile apps natively (with distcc help it's even not that slow).17:31
Stskeepsjebba: N900? no binary blobs17:31
lardmanPaulFertser: the watchdog having been placed there to stop people running anything other than Nokia's closed os? ;D17:31
jebbaah really. i thought it had some blobs in kernel too. nice to hear.  :)17:31
jebbaso 2.6.32 etc should work with some patches, eh?17:32
PaulFertserlardman: not really, but lacking docs and everything i couldn't understand how to run n810 bme-free.17:32
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jebbaPaulFertser: not to feed you too much, but what distro you run?17:32
lardmanbme is not the same as the watchdog you understand17:33
PaulFertserjebba: on n810?17:33
odin_the kernel can be recompile tho can't it ? if you want you can recompile the kernel that is shipped, you will however need to relink the binary blobs into it (or load as compatible modules), that is my understanding of N900, I have yet to test this theory out17:33
lardmanso you could keep the watchdog fn and use a kicker still17:33
Stskeepsodin_: there are no closed kernel modules in n90017:33
w00todin_: there *are* no kernel blobs17:33
jebbaPaulFertser: on yer laptop/workstation   (and n810 fwiw)17:33
PaulFertserlardman: i understand but somehow they related. n810 has several watchdogs none of which is properly documented. Apparently, 2.6.30 kernel from the omap branch doesn't include the support for one of them. And no, flasher can't disable it.17:33
odin_odin_, so the closed stuff is all in user-space ?17:33
Stskeepsodin_: right17:34
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lardmanPaulFertser: well the fact that 2.6.30 doesn't support it isn't Nokia's fault17:34
PaulFertserjebba: i run gentoo, debian and some hardcore-way upgraded system based on rh9.17:34
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jebbawhere you get your kernel source?17:34
odin_does this closed-stuff access hardware directly ?  or does it do it via a standard kernel API, an api that allows userspace controlled access to hardware busses, like USB etc...17:34
PaulFertserlardman: Hm, no? Proper manufacturers get their patches upstream on time. And no docs probably is a serious fault too.17:35
PaulFertserjebba: kernel.org17:35
StskeepsPaulFertser: then why isn't beagleboard in upstream? :P17:35
odin_for example the X11 servers have traditionally been the only Linux application that accesses hardware directly from user-space17:35
jebbabah! those bums have tons of non-free software in their kernels.17:35
lardmanok, so perhaps Nokia aren't a proper manufacturer, but this is a different argument isn't it17:35
lardmansound like general dissatisfaction with Nokia for whatever reason, try to find justifications without thinking why things might be the way they are17:36
Stskeepsodin_: afaik it accesses them through /dev and such17:36
Stskeepsand ioctls17:36
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PaulFertserlardman: general dissatisfaction, exactly. I so much wanted a decent device but now seeing n810 which runs ancient kernel and some essential blob stuff, and watching how n900 goes along... Yes, i'm frustrated. Being involved in openmoko community for more than a year nokia's "comminity" feels like a distasteful joke to me.17:37
MNX1024Can someone tell me what is the lock code for the N900?17:38
StskeepsMNX1024: 12345 is usual17:38
StskeepsPaulFertser: why aren't you getting a q5/q7 or the likes then? :P17:38
* w00t was thinking that17:38
lardmanPaulFertser: and now you're just calling people like me names? What's wrong with the community?17:38
SpeedEvillardman: nothing - it's the integration with the closed side.17:39
PaulFertserlardman: you seem to not be able to influence nokia enough.17:39
jebbaok. he's on the list.17:39
odin_Stskeeps, then that is fine then, where as X11 memory-maps graphics cards and reads/writes data which causes IO read/writes on bus17:39
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andre__PaulFertser, I think we should all become the presidents of Nokia. That should make it a bit easier to influence Nokia. I'm sorry that the community has not taken over completely yet.17:41
PaulFertserlardman: btw, openmoko community sucks too: too many clueless people in there with unreasonable expectations and inappropriate skills. But the core of the openmoko community is really qualified and sane.17:41
StskeepsPaulFertser: and slowly drifting away, too17:42
andre__Re Openmoko: so, help them if you know how to do better :)17:42
Stskeepsand to say is not qualified or sane is rather impolite17:42
JaffaAf'noon all17:42
andre__that's what open source is about: getting involved.17:42
PaulFertserStskeeps: sorry, i was never good at manners :(17:42
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StskeepsJaffa, popcorn?17:43
lardmanwell you're good and not being good at manners, I'll give you that17:43
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ShapeshifterPaulFertser: I get the feeling that nothing you say makes any real difference or has any point in being said. sorry :|17:43
PaulFertserStskeeps: also i'm rather low-level focused so i can't properly evaluate your high-level achievements.17:43
JaffaStskeeps: Yeah, connect and see PaulFertser involved in a closed-source argument.17:43
StskeepsJaffa: nah, at the moment it's about community influence17:43
lardmanPaulFertser: what is your low level focus out of interest?17:44
SpeedEvilWhere can I set the regulatory domain?17:44
SpeedEvilOf the wifi17:44
PaulFertserlardman: bootloader, kernel, hardware.17:44
lardmanand our work on those is poor I presume?17:44
fluxhmh, how come route add -host ipaddress gw anotheripaddress says route: SIOCADDRT: Network is unreachable, although pinging anotheripaddress works just fine?17:45
w00tJaffa: you arrived just in time then :-)17:45
StskeepsPaulFertser: 'Maemo Community is an open source community developing software around the Maemo platform.17:45
JaffaStskeeps: Ah, good17:45
PaulFertserlardman: i've seen none so far tbh. I've read one page about upstreaming n8x0 kernels on the wiki, done mostly by one volunteer.17:45
fluxI'm trying to setup a vpn to make my ssh connections more persistent in the presense of roaming wlan/3g..17:45
StskeepsPaulFertser: technically, we don't deal with hw, but some of us do17:45
StskeepsPaulFertser: that was a nokia employee, fwiw17:45
PaulFertserStskeeps: i know17:45
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jebbait seems /ignore doesn't work with freenode. "unknown command" odd.   /me fed enough...17:46
PaulFertserStskeeps: as i've said before: i can't see any difference between the symbian community and maemo community, they both fully depend on upstream vendor.17:46
PaulFertserjebba: ignore is client-side17:47
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StskeepsPaulFertser: my mind still boggles how buggy the hw on freerunner was even if it had very skilled hackers and hw people attached17:47
lardman~curse Goertzel17:47
odin_PaulFertser, but as I said before, now Nokia have a good blue print other vendors will create MIPS based Linux portable devices which are compatible17:47
infobotMay you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, Goertzel !17:47
Stskeepsthe same with the user interface17:47
derfJaffa: Do you know who I talk to to find out why Speex is in non-free?17:47
w00tlardman: ouch17:47
PaulFertserodin_: nice news17:47
Stskeepsderf: let me look17:48
JaffaPaulFertser: Who is saying that Maemo doesn't depend on Nokia? And, comparitively, what community we should be in instead?17:48
PaulFertserStskeeps: unfortunately, openmoko-the-company had enough of really clueless stupid TPE engineers involved.17:48
jebbaI see how to ignore a user, but how do you ignore messages directed at a user?  (pidgin in this case)17:48
Jaffaderf: There's a process, which Stskeeps would know better than me, as to request why something is closed and what barriers prevent it from being opened. In this case, I'd guess licensing?17:48
PaulFertserJaffa: i'd be happy to see Debian (and even ubuntu) properly supported on portable devices.17:48
derfSpeex is BSD.17:49
derf(I'm from Xiph.Org, by the way)17:49
Stskeepsderf: if it's bsd it can technically be binary-only :P17:49
Jaffaderf: Ah.17:49
SpeedEviljebba: you can't17:49
JaffaPaulFertser: Supported by whom?17:49
derfStskeeps: Yes, I'm not saying it's _illegal_ to have it in non-free.17:49
PaulFertserJaffa: by the vendor helping the community.17:49
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JaffaPaulFertser: And what are you doing to make it happen? And what does ranting in here do to bring it about?17:50
Stskeepsderf: yeah, i know17:50
w00tPaulFertser: what community?17:50
derfBut it's one of the only free codecs on the DSP, and I was hoping to crib off of it to add more.17:50
derfExcept I can't get the package source.17:50
JaffaI'm not sure anyone is going to argue against "let's have a properly supported full OSS OS on portable devices". People may argue about the practicability and business sense therein, though17:50
Jaffaderf: Ah. Ask on maemo-developers?17:50
PaulFertserw00t: debian/ubuntu/gnome mobile/shr/whatever. But not the other way round when vendor comes up with something and says: we give you hardware and core api, no do the cool apps for our great device.17:50
derfI don't actually need the source for Speex... the stuff I care about is the configuration needed to get it built and deployed on the device.17:50
w00tPaulFertser: the "whatever" is the problem there17:51
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lardmanderf: the omap bridge stuff has build files iirc17:51
lardmanand examples17:52
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w00tPaulFertser: naming names won't make it happen, the community starts with you17:52
RST38hHe is STILL ranting? Umgh.17:52
PaulFertserJaffa: i'm trying to help the openmoko project, that's my favourite so i concentrate my humble abilities on that. In here i'm trying to understand the n8x0 and related stuff better.17:52
w00tPaulFertser: a vendor isn't just going to do things for a "community" that doesn't yet exist17:52
Stskeepsderf: i can't see any good reason why it should be closed17:52
derflardman: Where is that?17:52
RST38hThis isn't #openmoko though...17:52
PaulFertserw00t: proper distros already exist, so i'd expect vendor to help the distro community to make a port. Same stuff as with the kernel. Vendor shouldn't fork the kernel, rather collaborate with upstream to get it supported officially from the start.17:53
* w00t gets bored with this17:53
StskeepsPaulFertser: most of -omap wasn't in upstream and still isn't17:53
lardmanderf: ?17:53
jebbacan we get a #maemo-devel channel?17:53
w00tStskeeps: it's really feeling like this is going around in circles at this point17:54
derflardman: Thanks.17:54
jebbaanything of any quality is getting lost in the noise17:54
lardmannp, let me know if it works as I've not tried it yet17:54
PaulFertserStskeeps: yes, but it's going forward. And there's a proper mailing list and git repo etc. One can actually track the development and take part in.17:54
andre__jebba: just do it. i also go to #maemo-bugs and I'm the only person so far :-P17:54
derfStskeeps: My best guess is that "free" stuff goes through the autobuilder, and the autobuilder isn't set up to build DSP things?17:54
derfBut that's just speculation.17:54
* PaulFertser 's away, sorry for disturbing you folks17:54
Myrttiknitting ♥ perhaps at Christmas time I get to knit a pouch for my N80017:54
RST38hderf: Just commit to non-free then17:54
Stskeepsderf: no, nokia is fine with publishing sources for uncompilable stuff..17:54
Jaffa#maemo-devel is nice and peaceful17:55
RST38hderf: It works, at least as a temporary measure17:55
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derfRST38h: Yes, that's fine when _I_ have something to commit.17:55
derfBut it doesn't get me an example to crib off of!17:55
derfStskeeps: Hah!17:55
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type_tcrib off of ..? are you in a Crib? o017:56
odin_Ive looked over the beagleboard info, and I can't immediately see the benifit to using it (to develop user-space apps), I can certainly understand kernel development benfits17:56
derfodin_: Well, it's probably not a large benefit over a real N900. But until very recently those didn't exist.17:56
Stskeepsderf: i'll put it on my list for discovering what it's about. it's in OSSW, has a bsd license in copyright17:57
type_todin_ << understands .. there is hope..17:57
derfStskeeps: Thanks.17:57
Stskeepsderf: did you check if it's in m.g.o multimedia?17:57
Stskeepsderf: one issue i could see would be that the guy who wrote the patches has left the company17:58
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RST38hLooks like N900 wants a reboot again17:58
derfStskeeps: It doesn't appear to be.17:59
RST38h7 days uptime, got really slow and ICQ no longer connects17:59
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derf7 days?!17:59
derfI can bork the thing in like 7 minutes.17:59
RST38hLast time it was 917:59
RST38hWell, mine does not get borked right away18:00
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w00tderf: we broke one within 3 hours of getting it out of the box, though a reflash fixed it :P18:00
derfIt _really_ did not seem to like the FM radio.18:00
* RST38h wonders if he has to uninstall Pidgin18:00
RST38hNo idea what else may be affecting this18:01
derfAnd seemed none to happy about BT GPS, either.18:01
odin_I have this yellow bar error/warning: "Operation disabled due to low memory"  is this due to memory or disk space?  rootfs is pretty full, only 8Mb free18:01
RST38hprobably disk18:01
odin_I only have RSS reader open, error is when it tried to open browser18:01
jebbathough 8M is "enough" too  hmm18:01
lardmanthat's a rubbish warning if it means disk space18:01
* RST38h wonders if Miranda can connect. Yes, it can.18:02
odin_memory says it only 350MB into swap18:02
JinoFixxi installed http analyzer for maemo firefox 3.5 but the windows isnt appearing18:03
odin_so what is using  up rootfs space to open browser?  what is the best way to tackle my recent extra-devel installs ?  I have a list of the packages... also over 25Mb is in use on the rootfs by the package manager alone?  should I submit a but report, thats like 5% of total diskspace18:03
RST38hChanged ICQ server port to -248736483218:04
derfIt really should link the package archives to /opt (I just linked mine manually).18:04
Stskeepsderf: could you do me a favour and submit a bug report and CC on it?18:04
odin_# du -s /var/lib/dpkg  => "25464   /var/lib/dpkg"18:04
derfStskeeps: Sure thing.18:04
Stskeepsderf: cos it seems a weird weird to be stuck in non-free18:04
Stskeepsweird thing, that is18:04
JinoFixxwhen they will open the ovi maemo store?18:05
Myrttion a day that ends with k18:05
odin_shouldn't all of /var be in /home/opt/maemo/var ??18:05
JinoFixxthe sdk for developers is ready ?18:05
Stskeepsderf: and add contents of changelog.gz (ungzipped) from .deb that diverts from the debian packaging18:06
ShapeshifterIn the n900 under the battery cover, with the camera on the right side, there's a rather large plastig piece to the left of the battery. What is that good for?18:06
ShapeshifterSeems like a waste of precious space.18:06
odin_anyone know if its safe to move /var/lib/dpkg to /home/opt/maemo/var/lib/dpkg  and symlink the dir ?  i.e. there is going to be no file renaming cross-device problems ?18:06
lardmancheck that /var isn't already on that mount point18:07
odin_its not, "df /var" and "df /var/lib/dpkg" both report "/"18:08
MNX1024May someone kindly direct me to a list of N900 short cuts?18:08
RST38hBTW, does Fennec work for anyone here?18:09
RST38hFor me, Fennec is too slow18:09
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MNX1024RST38H: on what device?18:10
infobotodin_ meant: ~test18:10
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jebbawhat is .cleancount in a debian build?18:10
odin_infobot shortcuts is
infobotodin_: okay18:10
odin_infobot gestures is
infobot...but gestures is already something else...18:10
bitcrusherodin_: damn, you beat me to it ;)18:10
jebbaah, may be asterisk specific18:10
* odin_ puts finger up at infobot18:10
MNX1024RST38H: It works for me. The only thing that caused it to crash is gmail, for what ever odd reason, I don't know.18:10
Myrttioh $DEITY, help! I've got Rainbow - I surrender stuck in my head...18:10
MNX1024Thanks a lot odin18:10
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RST38hCan't scroll properly in Fennec - it always gets stuck =(18:11
MNX1024You sure your device is not on full load by any chance while using it?18:12
RST38hIt is always at full load, with Fennec sucking 100% CPU18:13
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MNX1024Well, can't tell you much more. I uninstalled fennec on my N900 because I don't really use it.18:15
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type_t  Hildon (Maemo) fits in "UltraMobile High End Computers"18:15
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MNX1024Especially the fact that I can't get on gmail with it doesn't cut it for me.18:15
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* aquatix wonders how to get Tear to be `default browser' on his n810, so that things like Mauku open links in Tear instead of in microb18:17
MNX1024I just want to know something. I have gstreamer installed. I've just reseted my phone's setting, does that get uninstall?18:17
jeremiahMNX1024: I doubt that resetting your "phone's setting" will remove gstreamer.18:19
jeremiahBut it may depend one what setting it was.18:19
Klowner_Nokia just FINALLY NOW sent an email saying they received my busted N90018:19
Klowner_they've had it since wednesday18:19
MNX1024Ok, thanks for the info.18:20
Klowner_"We are not able to refund your original delivery charges", they better not frickin' charge for delivery of the replacement or I'll hunt them down18:21
* Myrtti gets the popcorn18:22
derfStskeeps: bug 660418:22
povbot`Bug Source for libspeex, libspeexdsp unavailable18:22
MNX1024I have another issue that seem to pop up since the night before yesterday. For some reason when I'm connected to connection, it would disconnect 2-5 minutes later. After that, I can't reconnect unless I restart the device.18:22
Stskeepsderf: thanks18:22
derfYer welcome.18:22
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MNX1024By the way, I'm using T-Mobile US.18:23
Myrttiwhat this channel desperately needs is a disclaimer of "we regret to inform that we can help you mainly with your issues with community supplied software, not with hardware related (shipping, quarantee, soldering etc.) problems..." :-P18:25
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MNX1024So, anyone having the same issue as me?18:26
MyrttiKlowner_: warranty18:26
andre__MNX1024: tried disabling power saving mode completely?18:27
andre__(if this is about wifi)18:27
mtnbkris there an official site/page where I can see achangelog of what is/will be new/fixed in a future update of Maemo on N900?18:28
SpeedEvilodin_: I was surprised to get a lot of space back on a reboot18:28
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andre__mtnbkr, future? no. only for releases that are out already18:28
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MNX1024It's not wifi, it's my 3G connection.18:28
Klowner_Myrtti: I assume that comment was directed at me?18:28
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odin_I am moving /var/lib/dpkg to /home/opt/maemo/var/lib/dpkg now18:29
Mdevessanyone has problems update repositories ?18:29
andre__mtnbkr, but you can query for reports with target milestone "5.0+" set18:29
ccookeAnyone know much about packaging firefox extensions for microb?18:29
andre__Mdevess, means?18:29
mtnbkrandre__: Hmm  would really love to know when/if 802.1x with TTLS/PAP will be avail. ;(18:29
Mdevessscratchbox doesn't update18:29
andre__mtnbkr, bug URL?18:29
* ccooke is having trouble finding the exact details18:29
mtnbkrandre__: thanks I'll check that out18:29
Mdevessthe packages :S18:29
andre__mtnbkr, well, sounds more like a feature request. and those are not announcement at all.18:29
Mdevess0% [Connecting to]18:29
Mdevessi have the correct dns/internet connection18:30
ccookeah, found it!18:30
mtnbkrandre__: heh is there a wishlist page somewhere?  :)18:30
dmj7261bilboed-tp: GAN900: how was the video editing session?18:30
MyrttiKlowner_: no, I've been here for couple of years on and off and it's always needed it, since there's very limited amount of help we can offer with the actual device18:30
odin_SpeedEvil, is that the bug/problem then ?  no automatic/background compactor/reclaimer ?18:30
andre__mtnbkr, well, for application-specific requests there is bugs.maemo.org18:30
andre__mtnbkr, for more general ideas there is maemo brainstorm18:30
Mdevess Temporary failure resolving ''18:30
Myrttisoftware being totally different issue, of course18:30
odin_SpeedEvil, or do programs have unlinked files open?18:31
* RST38h sent an "I am not worthy!" email to Clive Crous18:31
RST38hMaybe he can give some directions on compiling Vulture's Eye...18:31
mtnbkrandre__: OK Cools thanks... I already have a account so that works for me.  Also, it looks like there is already a bug/feature request for EAP + TTLS + PAP :)
povbot`Bug 1635: Eduroam (EAP-TTLS+PAP) WiFi auth18:32
andre__mtnbkr, feel free to vote for it18:32
mtnbkrpovbot`: yep, just found that. Thanks18:32
povbot`mtnbkr: Error: "yep," is not a valid command.18:32
mtnbkrandre__: Thanks for the help.18:33
odin_is there any point in doing a fuller Linux distro for N900 ?  i.e. one where people don't mind a bit more space used for regular gnu tools (and no busy box) ?18:33
Mdevesssolved now :-)18:33
Stskeepsodin_: not really. Mer exists.18:33
Stskeepsi need to finish up the port sometime18:33
odin_I'm just trying to set my "personal software goals"18:33
Stskeepsodin_: mer has a full gnu userspace18:34
infobotmer is probably, or on #mer18:34
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bilboed-tpdmj7261, good investigations18:34
bilboed-tplcuk might be doing a prototype within the next few days18:34
odin_but does it have "nokia N900 space" ?  how does an N900 get converted to Mer ?18:35
Stskeepsodin_: bootmenu :)18:35
ShadowJKdropped my N900 first time today, that's almost a week of no dropping!18:35
ShadowJK(it survived)18:35
dmj7261did you guys get a chance to look at my mockup?18:35
type_tcarpet or wood floor?18:35
ccooke(anyone know how stable/fast the firefox beta is these days?)18:36
odin_ccooke, ask timeless ?18:36
ShadowJKtype_t, window, plastic, aluminium tube, rubber floor18:36
timeless_mbpon what device?18:36
ccookeon the n900 :-)18:36
* timeless_mbp is busy making firefox not crash18:36
timeless_mbpsorry, i don't use it that often18:37
timeless_mbpi'm told it's better than it was18:37
dmj7261bilboed-tp: I'd be curious about what ideas you guys came up with18:37
DangerMausgoods luck on that one18:37
Stskeepsodin_: we're interested in contributors if you want to help work towards a 100% oss userland (with exception of some hw support blobs)18:37
ccooketimeless_mbp: know if it's optified?18:38
timeless_mbpi know they were trying to get that working18:38
odin_Stskeeps, I'm after the N900 device but am happy to spend a Gb of storage on a fuller/normal userland18:38
timeless_mbpit's kinda stupid too18:38
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timeless_mbpbecause gecko supports building/running from anywhere18:38
timeless_mbpso it shouldn't matter where it lives18:38
bilboed-tpdmj7261, everything in one window with fullscreen video18:38
bilboed-tpdmj7261, so... no fancy hyper complex features18:38
TommyBreshey, stupid question but are there any decent maemo blogs out there, not related to the platform itself but rumors of upcoming phones and what not18:39
TommyBresbasically my next phone will either be maemo or android, i have an idea what's coming for android but no clue about maemo18:39
bilboed-tpdmj7261, someone was making slides about it18:39
odin_Stskeeps, I don't want/need everything a full distro offers, just no busy box, a bash shell, etc... creature comforts18:39
odin_Stskeeps, maybe a "busybox-less" upgrade packages can be produced ?18:40
Stskeepsodin_: it's better in maemo5 i think18:40
* TommyBres pokes everyone18:40
dmj7261I was thinking the same thing though with stackable windows to handle things like getting files18:40
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StskeepsTommyBres: seems to be a decent source18:41
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TommyBresStskeeps: yeah i was checking that out, seems it's all focused on the N90018:42
TommyBresare there no other phones rumored to release, ever?18:42
odin_Stskeeps, infact thats what I shall add to my "personal software goals", a "busyboxless" package upgrade, I shall take a look at what Mer offers once I get SDK installed (after I reinstall workstation onto Fedora12)18:42
StskeepsTommyBres: there's rumours of a Maemo6 device which would be OMAP3 and probably capacitive screen due to harmattan needs18:42
TommyBresooh good start18:42
derfodin_: I would certainly love a busybox-replacement package.18:42
StskeepsTommyBres: but N900 is very very capable in itself18:42
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TommyBresyeah but 1) no AT&T 3G, 2) resistive screen, 3) 3 row keyboard18:43
TommyBresthose are the reasons i don't want it18:43
TommyBresi currently have a capacitive screen and a 5 row keyboard, it'd be a huge downgrade in those regards18:43
odin_derf, yes.. I'm trying to understand what I need (and what I think others would like) to contribute something, I also have Java support to look at (as I'm heavily into that in my paid work)18:43
pekujaStskeeps: do resistive screens not work in harmattan winds?18:43
jebbanoob sdk Q:  how do i get the home/end keys to work in SDK?  They just give me "~" key.18:44
Stskeepspekuja: people keep on claiming that. i'm doubtful personally18:44
SpeedEvilodin_: I'm unsure of exactly the cause.18:44
ShadowJKapart from the overloaded keyboard, the keyboard is nice, it took only about 3 days for me to adjust to it... whereas some 4 row keyboards have needed weeks :/18:44
derfodin_: Well, just keep in mind, I think some people looked at replacing pieces of busybox before, and system boot time went up _considerably_.18:44
pekujawell, a capacitive screen doesn't work with gloves :-p18:44
SpeedEvilodin_: I've been doing exactly the wrong thing.18:44
odin_TommyBres, what device do you currently have?   I am somewhat unhappy with the keyboard too18:44
jebbaya, busybox makes diff uninstallable and has a grep without  `grep -w` ...18:44
TommyBresi have an HTC Dream right now18:44
TommyBreswith Android18:44
SpeedEvilodin_: As in installing ~20 apps18:44
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SpeedEvilfrom extras-unstable18:44
SpeedEvilis there a way to get proper find?18:44
derfjebba: grep \\\<word\\\> ?18:45
TommyBresodin_: as for the N900's keyboard, yeah, i really think it's a disgrace... plenty of phones settle for 4 row keyboards, but 3 row? with the spacebar jammed into the bottom row? that's abysmal18:45
pekujaI haven't even got my N900 yet though. dunno if I would really want to use it with gloves on... but maybe in cold weather I'd use it with a sylus18:45
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pekujawhich doesn't work that well with a capacitive screen18:45
Stskeepsi like the n900 keyboard personally18:45
TommyBresi come on IRC on my phone nearly daily, so the keyboard is a big thing for me18:46
jebbaderf: seems to work thx18:46
TommyBrespekuja: well you could get some of those iphone gloves :P18:46
odin_derf, ok bootup time is definately something to be worked on as well, but thats not necessarly a gnu-utils-chain issue18:46
derfYer welcome.18:46
dmj7261bilboed-tp: I posted links to my mockups above18:46
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TommyBresand a capacitive stylus18:46
Stskeepsbootup time of n900 is really good, fwiw.18:46
derfodin_: I'm just saying the change in utils is what caused the difference.18:46
Klowner_Stskeeps: compared to my old blackberry, heck yes18:46
TommyBresi've had my phone since like february and i've never had a time where i was mad the screen was capacitive18:46
odin_does anyone know if the flasher program is 2-way, can I download the current 32Gb flash image to a file (as well as upload and overwrite?)  I want to know if I brink it, must I loose my data ?18:46
Stskeepsodin_: no, it doesn't extract contents of device18:47
ShadowJKn900 bootup time is comparable to my s60 phones..18:47
odin_Stskeeps, is that a valid features request ?  to see why some devices failed ?18:47
valdynodin_: cat should work.18:47
TommyBresandroid's boot is a bit slow, i won't lie, but i don't reboot very often so it's alright18:47
Stskeepsodin_: i'm not sure NOLO is capable of extracting, but hmm18:47
jebbaodin_: you dont' lose your data on reflash (e.g. /home/user)  but you do lose any installed apps since symlinks get broken18:48
pekujaTommyBres: yeah, but then I'd always have to wear those gloves18:48
pekujaTommyBres: and if they get dirty, that could turn nasty18:48
valdynodin_: the flashable device isnt 32gb, thats only 256 iirc18:48
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pekujaTommyBres: a clean stylus might be a better option18:48
Stskeepsodin_: i guess it could prove useful to be able to extract mmc and internal flash contents18:48
KMFDMi personally would never buy a capacitive screen. 4 months of the year where I can't use touch? and wind would rip the stylus out of your hand18:48
TommyBrespekuja: they have capacitive stylii18:48
TommyBresi just have no reason whatsoever for a stylus tbh18:48
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KMFDMplus iphone gloves are 100 euros18:49
TommyBresmost times when an operating system is meant to be used with a resistive screen, they take advantage of having a stylus by making certain things smaller (the "X" to close windows in windows mobile, for example)18:49
odin_the images I just burnt to CDROM are around 161Mb, the reflash images18:49
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KMFDMas if i have that left after buying a smart phone or am going to spend on gloves jsut because it uses an inferior screen technology18:49
SpeedEvilThe stylus is awesome for tetris.18:49
TommyBresbut when an OS is made for finger use (OSX, Android, WebOS) i never feel the need for a stylus18:49
SpeedEvilkiller app18:49
Stskeepsodin_: FWIW, you can emulate that by putting in a external SD card and making a kernel that boots from external SD18:50
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Stskeepsodin_: that could be a cool tool for rescuing data, fwiw18:50
Stskeepsodin_: and then with flasher ask it to load that kenrel18:50
Stskeeps(there's a "don't have to flash, just load the kernel" option)18:51
odin_Stskeeps, where are the instructons for that?  booting from 2nd MMC card (not internal) in priority over internal18:51
w00tI haven't really used the stylus with my n90018:51
pekujado you think Maemo is designed for stylus use?18:51
Stskeepsodin_: it's a CONFIG_CMDLINE18:51
TommyBresew, you didn't mention the rumored N920 has no keyboard18:51
StskeepsTommyBres: that's a fake rumour18:52
Myrttihahahaha N92018:52
Myrttithe best joke ever18:52
TommyBresso where's the rumor you were actually talking about18:52
TommyBresmaemo 6, capacitive screen, etc18:52
fnordianslippersi used the stylus just nowl when running a remote X app over ssh. the menus were a bit small18:52
MyrttiTommyBres: you just said it18:52
StskeepsTommyBres: that's announced roadmap of maemo6 .. they don't do it for no reason18:52
odin_yeah thats gonna be the N911 it has a turbo button18:52
TommyBresMyrtti: someone in here told me there was another phone rumored, they didn't mention it was a joke :P18:53
SpeedEvilTommyBres: There is18:53
Stskeepsodin_: so basically build your own kernel with MMC modules in it, CONFIG_CMDLINE with root=/dev/mmcwhatever18:53
SpeedEvilTommyBres: problem is - no hard info18:53
MyrttiTommyBres: it just isn't "N920#18:53
TommyBresi'm asking, WHEREZ TEH RUMOR18:53
SpeedEvilTommyBres: hte 'n920' stuff diddn't come from a credible source18:53
w00tpekuja: maemo 5? not really18:53
w00tpekuja: i never really have trouble hitting stuff with my finger18:53
StskeepsTommyBres: maemo6 device is second half of 2010 though18:54
w00tpekuja: it almost seems like it reads my mind.18:54
odin_Stskeeps, I have not gotten that far yet... CONFIG_CMDLINE ?  what is that used with ?  NOLO ?  but NOLO is built into the device and everyone says, don't mess with that18:54
TommyBresoh forget that18:54
StskeepsTommyBres: and your n900 will sureley last ill then18:54
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Stskeepsodin_: CONFIG_CMDLINE is in kernel configuration :)18:54
TommyBresjeez, as quickly as android has exploded, maemo seems to be crawling :P18:54
TommyBresStskeeps: i want a decent phone, not an N90018:54
pekujaw00t: woot18:54
StskeepsTommyBres: have to wait then probably18:54
MyrttiTommyBres: that's the fake uncovered. there's no pictures of a device, there's no single document that has everything, there's just a mention of a feature there and another here18:54
TommyBresnah, i'll stick with android18:54
MyrttiTommyBres: have fun18:54
SpeedEvilTommyBres: you diddn't see android at the start18:54
TommyBresMyrtti: thanks18:54
TommyBresSpeedEvil: i didn't?18:55
TommyBresit released october 23rd 2008, and by the end of october there were rumored android phones from motorola, kogan, garmin, samsung...18:55
TommyBresmotorola's came, kogan's was canceled, garmin's is still in the works, and samsung's came18:55
SpeedEvilTommyBres: Or rather - the n900 compares favourably to the exposure I had earlier than 200818:55
StskeepsTommyBres: just because there's different hw it doesn't mean it's not crap :)18:55
Stskeepsthe n900 works for me personally.18:56
TommyBreswell i have a 5 row keyboard and a capacitive screen18:56
TommyBresyou have 3 rows, a spacebar next to the N and B18:56
TommyBresepic. fail. :|18:56
SpeedEvilto oct 200818:56
Stskeepswhich is by the way, very handy for thumb usage18:56
TommyBres3 rows?18:56
SpeedEvilFeel free to go away.18:56
w00tTommyBres: works for me, it might not work for you18:56
odin_Stskeeps, okay but the kernel isn't booted ?  I'm saying if an auxillary MMC card is prepared and plugged in, how do you get the N900 to boot from it?  you can't say use CONFIG_CMDLINE when you compile the kernel, since the issue I'm asking about is getting this (arbitrary) kernel to boot in preference to the internal flash one18:56
w00t(is today troll day, or what?)18:56
TommyBresoh don't worry, i feel free to roam IRC as i please18:56
valdyndoes this channel have a policy against trolls in place?18:56
MyrttiTommyBres: in case you haven't noticed yet, you're trolling18:57
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TommyBresw00t: don't be such a dolt, i came in here to ask about other phones18:57
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TommyBresMyrtti: what i just said to woot, consider the same18:57
StskeepsTommyBres: go try a n900 and then have a proper opinion on it.18:57
w00tTommyBres: rather, I'll just go back to doing something productive18:57
w00tenjoy your stay18:57
MyrttiTommyBres: and we told you what little we know, and you keep ranting about how shit n900 and the rumoured one is, and how great android is. I call it trolling18:57
Stskeepsodin_: right, you can use flasher to load a certain kernel over USB18:57
TommyBresMyrtti: i commented how there's only one phone rumored and that's really weird, comparing to the start of android18:58
StskeepsTommyBres: maemo is mostly a one-vendor thing18:58
TommyBresand then someone else decided to tell ME what i did and didn't see, being the beginning of android18:58
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SpeedEvilTommyBres: the start of android was _NOT_ oct 200818:58
Stskeepsodin_: flasher-3.5 -k zImage -l18:58
TommyBresStskeeps: i know, but it's still open source18:58
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TommyBresSpeedEvil: the release of the first android handset was18:58
odin_Stskeeps, oh... thats not what I want to do :(  I'm thinking that NOLO can run a bootloader, this bootloader works out which kernel to run, etc...18:58
Stskeepsodin_: nah, not possible18:58
w00tmaemo also wasn't even a phone platform until august18:58
TommyBresSpeedEvil: you could argue that the release of maemo wasn't just recently, but the release of the N900 was18:58
Myrttianyway, I've got my knitting and LOTR to do18:59
jebbawoo hoo!  just called my phone and had asterisk answered  :)18:59
* Stskeeps puts TommyBres on ignore and goes do more productive things18:59
TommyBresw00t: android is on netbooks already, what's your point? they're versatile18:59
w00tStskeeps: high five18:59
TommyBresStskeeps: hahah announcing ignores is for 14 year old girls18:59
* Myrtti feels girly18:59
odin_Stskeeps, what happens to the original kernel image when you run that ?  I wish to keep it around, possibly boot up on it next time18:59
TommyBres...and high fiving announced ignores? more 14 year old girls18:59
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Stskeepsodin_: nothing18:59
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* Arkenoi tries to think out a hack to share location via google latitude web client18:59
TommyBresi can't even consider the N900 as having a QWERTY because the spacebar messes up the traditional interface of the keyboard19:00
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odin_Stskeeps, ok, so only thet one-time bootup runs that kernel and that kernel is loadeded over USB ?19:00
Stskeepsodin_: right19:00
frals<3 trolls19:00
StskeepsTommyBres: and so fucking what. if you don't like N900, fuck off. you don't belong in this community.19:00
odin_Stskeeps, ok understand it now, so a bootloader can be developed this way too ?19:00
TommyBres<3 people who call me a troll for disagreeing19:00
TommyBresStskeeps: i love MAEMO, i don't like the N90019:00
TommyBresi don't belong in the MAEMO community because i don't like one phone?19:00
MyrttiTommyBres: then don't buy one19:00
TommyBresMyrtti: i'm not...19:01
Myrttimoving on19:01
TommyBresthat's like if someone came into #android telling me the G1 sucks, i don't give a fuck, get another handset, they're there for the OS, not the phone19:01
w00tcan people please stop feeding the troll? just ignore it and it'll die off19:01
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Myrttiso a duck walks into a bar...19:01
fluxhmph, I just ran out of ptys19:01
TommyBreshey, maybe calling someone a troll will keep them from talking19:01
SpeedEvilI just ran out of potatos.19:02
w00tSpeedEvil: I've got plenty19:02
TommyBreshaha good to know maemo has such a garbage community19:02
TommyBresthat's enough to keep me away, take care little high school girls19:02
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w00ttold you19:02
w00tattention starvation19:02
w00tthey can't stand not being the center of it19:02
Stskeepsflux: yeah, pty limit is a issue :P19:02
odin_flux, how many u using ?19:03
fluxodin_, I actually rebooted already but I don't think it was 'that many'19:03
fluxa few ssh's in. but I had disconnected some from the client end, maybe they were lingering still19:03
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Stskeepsodin_: we already have bootmenu though19:04
odin_Stskeeps, can you " flasher-3.5 -k zBootmenu -l" to test it ?19:04
fluxis there a way to call some script when a network interface goes up? pkill -USR1 openvpn..19:05
Stskeepsodin_: no, it sits as a /sbin/preinit hook19:05
fluxah :), there's /etc/network, do those scripts work?19:05
Stskeepsflux: used to19:05
type_tok you guys need to get back in your cribs ok.. stop fighting..19:06
fluxmaybe I'll just test first19:06
odin_Stskeeps, huh surely that is too late, and can't be a boot menu ?19:06
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Stskeepsodin_: sure it is, just like initrd passes on control19:06
odin_Stskeeps, bootmenu is for selecting the kernel to load (and the params to pass it)19:06
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Stskeepsodin_: yes, and that's not possible19:06
Stskeepsbootmenu on maemo is something that boots a different rootfs19:07
odin_Stskeeps, why is it not possible ?  that is the basis of your claim19:07
fluxthey do work19:07
jebbacool.  Running asterisk 1.4 on n900, calling out to digium's test system, uses about 5% of cpu19:07
Stskeepsodin_: ok, first off, kexec doesn't work. the only way to switch kernels is either by flashing it into NAND or loading over USB.19:07
type_tfor the qwerty issue .. there got to be a way of connect a USB hub and pop a usb Keyboard and thats it..19:08
Stskeepsodin_: what i suggested was a special kernel that when booted, instead of mounting internal NAND rootfs, mounted the external MMC and booted a rescue mode from ther19:08
odin_Stskeeps, I'm saying make a cut-down linux which can barely work MMC/display/keyboard, this can also throw away state and load a kernel from anywhere once done to bootup a real kernel19:09
Stskeepsodin_: yes, but that's what i'm saying is not possible. kexec is broken.19:09
Stskeepsthat's the stuff that can load a new kernel from inside a kernel.19:09
w00tunfixably broken?19:10
type_thacker proof. that is..19:10
odin_Stskeeps, broken as in... has never worked on MIPS arch ?  doesn't work on N900 ?19:10
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Stskeepsodin_: it's ARM, and last i tried it failed to work19:10
Stskeepsit has worked on n8x0 once, but there was a serial console race condition.19:10
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Stskeepshi Stargazers19:14
StargazersAnyone got mafw-lastfm and even made it work?19:14
StargazersOn n900.19:14
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SpeedEvil#1 dealbreaker. Bounce only has two playable levels.19:15
Stskeepshexedit it for more19:15
RST38hStskeeps: I suddenly Understood.19:16
StargazersOr is there any other scrobblers out there what will work on Nokia N900?19:16
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RST38hStskeeps: In order to keep stupid people from using your app, you should simply distribute it as a .deb, outside of any repos!19:16
* RST38h has seen the light!19:16
StskeepsRST38h: didn't work with mer19:17
w00tthat's because you kept whoring it out19:17
RST38hStskeeps: You are getting ridiculous queries on Mer as well?19:17
StskeepsRST38h: well, more of a religious nature :P19:18
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RST38hStskeeps: Ah, this is different!19:18
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Stargazersserpent: Hi19:20
serpentis there a way to compile on the n900?19:20
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w00tStskeeps: frothing of the mouth is not religious, it is a disease19:20
andre__serpent, nope. use the SDK instead.19:21
Stskeepsandre__: terrifyingly enough you might be wrong :P19:21
andre__there probably is a way, sure.19:21
* Stskeeps tries to find the thread19:21
andre__but a complicated one i guess19:21
b-man17serpent: install gcc19:22
* SpeedEvil does first battery rundown test when idle.19:22
Stskeepsserpent: careful though, it's not a typical usage :)19:24
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jebbabootstrap gcc on it...  ;)    possible, but way better to just use SDK....19:24
BluesLeei thought portrait mode is disabled19:24
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serpentandre__: gcc is installed but cant see it on the path19:25
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BluesLeeit seems possible to switch to using a portrait mode app19:25
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fralsportrait mode isnt disabled, just most of the builtin apps doesnt support it19:25
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* frals goes back to java and multicasting19:27
timeless_mbphello jaem_19:27
timeless_mbphello Jaffa19:27
Jaffahi timeless_mbp19:30
* Jaffa is busy working on a presentation about Android (don't ask)19:30
Stskeepsmy condolences19:31
serpentwhich installer should i choose?19:31
serpentgui, scratchbox or sdk?19:32
Stskeepsgui prolly19:32
serpentwhere is the doc about the differences?19:32
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timeless_mbpJaffa: i'm looking for testers as usual :)19:33
Lorthirktesters for what?19:34
jebbaserpent: just go with GUI unless it doesn't work (which it should).  Quick & easy.19:34
w00ttimeless_mbp: what do you need?19:34
timeless_mbpenus1/engb1/clock data fix19:34
* w00t blinks19:35
timeless_mbpbut lemme pull in a clock data update before you guys get started19:35
* w00t makes a 'woosh' noise19:35
timeless_mbpdon't worry, the instructions for installing are easy19:35
timeless_mbpand testing is well...19:35
Jaffatimeless_mbp: Unfortunately, wife's just called!19:36
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serpentjebba: i have a 9" display and the qt window doesnt fit19:37
jebbaserpent: hold down the ALT key and click-drag the window to get to the bottom buttons. It's only a few steps.19:38
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markus__hy everybody19:42
markus__I sucessfully installed the maemo sdk yesterday and could compile a helloworld program19:43
markus__Now I am wondering how I could use kate or any other editor to modify my programs19:43
markus__used nano in the console so far19:43
markus__sorry, if stupid question. Just started to learn it all :-)19:44
jebbamarkus__: from outside of the scratchbox, edit the file19:46
jebbamarkus__: like in my case:  /scratchbox/users/jebba/home/jebba/foo.txt19:46
jebbathen just do the building from within the scratchbox19:46
markus__this works. thanx19:47
odin_ok I moved my /var/lib/dpkg to /home/opt/maemo/var/lib/dpkg  (and wrote a script to help someone else do it)19:49
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odin_after the 25Mb move, I only got another 7Mb of space, I did a "sync" and got another 2Mb back on rootfs.  I did a reboot and now I have 47Mb.19:53
Stskeepsgarbage collection maybe19:54
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Stskeepsand remember it's compressed19:54
odin_any ubifs experts on?  does it not automatically recalc/compact ?  or is the issue some programs using rootfs to open file, which they then delete but hold onto file descriptor?19:54
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woglindestskeep do you know if I can develop with sdk+ for fremantle?19:55
Stskeepswoglinde: -think- you can, but not sure19:55
woglindebecause the rootfs for fremantle is from april or so19:55
woglindeI dont want to switch back ti sb119:56
Stskeepsjust use the newer rootstrap19:56
woglindehm uh?19:56
woglindehm where is it?19:57 somewhre19:57
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woglindehm ah19:58
cehtehodin_: such things are possible with newer filesystems (nilfs, btrfs which i know) .. no experience with ubifs19:58
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RST38hHa ha ha ha ha19:59
RST38hIt is building!19:59
woglinderst what?20:00
woglindehm has the n900 a micro?20:00
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jebbawoglinde: microSD?  yes.  I added additional 16G.20:03
jebbaRST38h: what you building?20:03
woglindejebba no microphone20:03
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jebbaof course it has a microfone (?)20:04
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woglindeI will try to get to compile and work20:05
odin_Stskeeps, just reading up on "UBI" if this works directly on top of flash, the it should be possible to implment "assured rewrite non-volatile memory" as part of a Secutity Storage API ?  you just need to be able to disable Flash Translation Layer and force actions on specific physical flash pages20:06
Stskeepsodin_: out of my league, sorry20:06
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Klowner_jebba: *most* of them have microphones  :(20:07
LoCusFbtw, are there any restrictions on users themselves distributing the binaries of iNES and drnoksnes?20:07
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ShadowJKKlowner_, you still haven't exchanged yours?20:08
jebbaStskeeps answered this in #maemo-devel, but i'll just give it a shot here for kicks. Anyone available to approve uploading to extras-testing (garage).  ping X-Fade  :)20:08
type_t_odin_ not my league but sounds thats a way to implement a storage to flash.20:08
jebbaasterisk fwiw20:08
Klowner_ShadowJK: they haven't replaced it yet, they received it on wednesday and sent me this email this morning
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BluesLeehow do i enter the first supertux level, some knows?20:11
jebbahit enter ?20:11
jebbadown arrow to get to the red dot then hit enter?20:11
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odin_it looks like the "UBI" part is a layer allowing for direct flash page manipulation (or a corrected flash page manipulation, i.e. all the problems are transparently fixed by low level driver) but that fact you can still get at the unfixed view means you can implment security on top of flash20:14
ShadowJKThe N900 has 256MB of OneNAND storage. It's direct flash..20:15
ShadowJKI've only vaguely looked at it, but I think UBI is a FTL (that runs in software on the device), and ubifs is the filesystem used on top of ubi.20:16
odin_security requirements would include, immediate erasure of sensitite blocks, assured rewrite of same block (or rather assured overwrite/erasure of the old data)20:16
cehtehubifs is in the mainline kernel20:16
odin_256Mb is the RAM ?  is it static ram ?   my N900 has 32Gb internal storage, which is said to be flash based (but i never took it apart!)20:16
Stskeepsno, the NAND20:16
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cehtehodin_: the 32GB are eMMC20:17
cehtehplus 256MB nand flash20:17
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odin_plus 256Mb ram ?20:17
ShadowJK256megabytes of SDRAM, 256 megabytes of OneNAND, 32 gigabytes of emmc20:17
odin_ah cool, so if we can nick a page of 256MB nand flash, for secutiry API purposes?20:18
SpeedEvilAnd up to 16G of microSD - at the moment20:18
SpeedEvilodin_: I think you want it at a lower level than is available.20:18
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cehtehi'd avoid touching the nand as much as possible :P20:18
SpeedEvilodin_: I think there is a raw mode, which requires a special driver20:18
ShadowJKYou'd have to modify ubifs in the kernel20:19
SpeedEvilodin_: and doesn't do ECC, or error-checking20:19
cehtehubifs or the ftl should do that20:19
cehtehwell not sure20:19
* fnordianslip has just discovered some kind of kinetic scrolling in xchat on the n90020:20
SpeedEvilthe xterm kinetic scrolls20:20
SpeedEvilas a default20:21
ShadowJKxchat not xterm20:21
odin_Im thinking its a simply request to someone at noika, "Hey a supported Secutiry Storage API would be desirable, but you don't need to you to do everything, just the hardware bit"20:21
* SpeedEvil is tired.20:21
ShadowJKodin_, I suspect the hardware is able to do it20:21
fnordianslipShadowJK: by dragging up/down in the left hand side of the screen until you reach the top/bottom and it continues to scroll up/down20:21
odin_gawd my spelling is getting worse...20:21
ShadowJKfnordianslip, ah20:21
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fnordianslipbeats trying to use the scrollbars20:22
ShadowJKdunno, I can hit the scrollbar with my thumb with >50% reproducability atleast20:22
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* ShadowJK wonders if there's such a security api at all in linux yet20:23
fnordianslipyou must have a pointy thumb20:23
ShadowJKdon't need a pointy thumb20:23
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ShadowJKjust need the center to be on the scrollbar20:23
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fnordiansliphmm. perhaps. i like the draggy thing20:24
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wavelengthsalright, another n900 noob looking for someone to reveal the Truth of telepathy plugins : )20:26
wavelengthsi tried an apt-get of telepathy-haze from extras-testing, and then realized that did absolutely nothing to add the transport to Accounts20:27
wavelengthsany insights?20:27
Stskeepswavelengths: install account-plugin- something that's there20:28
wavelengthsheh, had a feeling that was the case! down to extras-devel then20:28
wazdmmmm, I can buy mac pro case for just 200 bucks, mmm20:28
wavelengthsalright, and if i've got my telepathy-haze installed like an idiot already from extras-testing, i assume i should remove that before the dev build?20:29
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odin_wavelengths, I installed them via the HAM UI and they worked for me20:30
hardakerthere is actually something like telepathy-SOMETHING where SOMETHING is bigbundle, everything, modules, extras, or s...  I can't remember20:30
hardakerit installs everything and is what I did.20:31
wavelengthsyeah, ran across that the other day as well - i'll give that a shot, thanks20:31
hardaker(just looked it up)20:32
oops6_4Hi I have n810 and I want to transfer some file from my computer to n810 I connected the USB data cable the device got connected and I Copy pasted the file in that as normal USB storage device but now I can't able to see that file from the device20:32
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woglindeoops6_4 maybee its under /mnt/mmc220:33
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woglindeafter disconnect the cable20:34
oops6_4woglinde: well I will try and get back 1 min20:34
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Lorthirkoops6_4: you have to disconnect the usb cable as woglinde said20:34
oops6_4Lorthirk: checking20:35
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wavelengthshardaker: had any notable problems with the new plugins?20:35
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hardakernope.  they work fine.  occasionally sometimes they seem to fail to connect.20:36
oops6_4woglinde: hey its there but how do I access it form the file manager20:36
hardakerbut I doubt that's the plugins fault since it happens sometimes from the desktop too.20:36
wavelengthsyeah, sounds about right. i've been using trillian on the windows desktop for ages and it tends to go a bit silly now and again.20:36
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oops6_4I have installed the scratchbox on my system and for QT followed this wiki but while installing qt "apt-get qt4-dev-tools" its giving error "/scratchbox/tools/bin/chown: `messagebus:messagebus': invalid user"20:41
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RST38hI built Vulture's Eye for N900. It works!20:44
Stskeepsnethack? :P20:44
jebbafwiw, i have messagebus user/group in my SDK and i didnt set it up manually20:44
jebbaheh cute20:45
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oops6_4jebba: so can you tall me how do I add messagebus user/group20:46
naxxatoeFirst and foremost, i have to say: thank you guys, its a pleasure to see that there is so much active development already going on, as i know the n900 is only out on the market for 5 days =) - congrats to all of you20:47
Stskeepsnaxxatoe: community has existed since 2005 :) it's first now it has a phone20:48
jebbaoops6_4: useradd/groupadd.   My lines look like this:20:48
woglindehi javis20:48
naxxatoei know but still its really awsome =)20:49
redeemannaxxatoe: you are developing for the N900 aswell?20:49
redeemanin that case, i have a few questions20:49
redeemani have setup my scratchbox and installed qt4 stuff20:49
naxxatoecurrently building a imsi catcher - catcher20:49
jebbaoops6_4: but if those lines arent there, your SDK may not have gotten set up correctly.20:49
redeemanbut the maemo specific stuff is not available20:49
naxxatoei develop on the phone itself20:49
redeemansuch as orientation and such20:49
naxxatoeusing python20:49
oops6_4jebba: ok thanks20:49
naxxatoei am not using the sdk at all, sorry20:49
jebbawhat is this process?  omap2_mcspi   disk?20:51
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javispedrosometimes I have to wonder if there's a hidden force in the universe preventing me from getting a device.....21:03
Stskeepsyou lost one of the 5?21:03
Stskeeps(the raffle)21:03
javispedrobut that was to be expected :)21:04
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jebbaConnected to Asterisk currently running on Nokia-N900-42-11 (pid = 4917)21:05
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bilboedand another evening where every wooshed away to the center of barcelona without informing others21:07
Stskeepsi can pretty much say that lbt and tomaszd probably went to find icecream21:08
javispedrowell, if nobody knows where to go ...21:08
w00tStskeeps: wtf.21:08
bilboedjavispedro, I'm not complaining, means I have no excuses to go out with my gf :)21:08
Stskeepsw00t: weird tradition we've started having21:08
bilboedjavispedro, you live in bcn too, right ?21:08
javispedro(never ask me, i'd say something stupid like a pizza)21:08
* bilboed slaps javispedro 21:09
javispedrobilboed: yep21:09
bilboedOUTRAGE !21:09
* bilboed is more looking at a bodega or something like that21:09
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javispedro(and I actually had pizza already for food, and it wasn't even me who was choosing :P)21:10
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jebbaDocScrutinizer, did you just /msg me? I saw something pop up, but closed the window accidentally, looked like your nick21:11
DocScrutinizernope, not me21:11
jebbaso i have an init.d script which is calling something which wants `getopts`, which is part of bash. Any hints?21:12
timeless_mbpnow, where were my volunteers?21:12
timeless_mbpw00t: you have an n900, right?21:12
javispedroare you still looking for volunteers, or is this something else to test?21:12
w00ttimeless_mbp: yes21:12
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jebbaah, getopts is being called by lsb-base...21:14
lardmanyay, reboot back to Linux time :)21:16
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timeless_mbpjavispedro: if you have an n900, sure :)21:16
* javispedro sighs :)21:17
LoCusF/var/lib/dpkg/info/osso-mission-control.postrm: line 13: /usr/bin/update-desktop-database: No such file or directory <- what on earth is this, the file in question does exist?21:18
LoCusFI get that during removal of osso-mission-control21:19
timeless_mbpask google?21:19
LoCusFtried, no answers this time21:19
javispedrothat file exists on my N81021:19
LoCusFthats is in my SDK21:19
timeless_mbpi get lots of hits for that file21:19
javispedroit exists on my SDK too21:19
javispedrowhich is on my N810 too since... today (I got bored)21:19
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StskeepsLoCusF: i'm not confident nokia packages are tested for removability really21:20
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LoCusFargh, of course then ...21:20
LoCusFdamn, I gotta reinstall the whole thing now21:20
StskeepsSDK? :P21:20
LoCusFany pointers on how to do the reinstall fast :) ?21:20
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jebbais lsb-base installed on the default image?21:23
timeless_mbpLoCusF: virtualization solutions let you snapshot images :)21:24
valdynLoCusF: the debian package management system is documented, just probably not at maemo.org21:24
timeless_mbp(zfs lets you do better)21:24
LoCusFwow there is this cool gui :)21:25
LoCusFtimeless_mbp: yup, already on linux so no problems on that :)21:25
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LoCusFvaldyn: yeah I know21:25
lardmanhow should I remove something in a rules file?21:26
v2n900just hafd my first random reboot on n900 after. having the phone for about 8h :/21:26
valdynlardman: if the answer isnt "with a text editor" then i dont understand the question21:26
lardmanah, rm -f21:26
lardmanvaldyn: sorry, poorly stated question21:26
lardmanhad to remove configure-stamp21:28
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lardmanand rules was occasionally complaining, depending how far it got in the build process before crashing :)21:28
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apolcan somebody tell me how to use the keyboard through Xephyr?21:28
lardmanlibgmp here we come (fingers crossed!)21:28
lardmanapol: press shift ctrl or something to grab it?21:28
lardmansays it on the title bar iirc from the screenies21:29
apollardman: I want it to respond to my key presses21:29
apolthat's all :P21:30
apolmy app is listening to arrows pressed and so on21:30
lardmanoh I see21:30
apoland they're not triggered :S21:30
lardmanno idea then I'm afraid21:30
apolit's ok :P21:31
lardmanah, so you don't necessarily get any keypresses?21:31
apollardman: it works in the open dialog21:31
lardmanin which case make sure you've pressed the magic keys for Xephyr to grab the kb21:31
apollardman: magic keys?21:31
lardmanah, ok, back to square one21:31
* timeless_mbp grumbles21:32
LoCusFI also get errors like this: /var/lib/dpkg/ line 39: /usr/sbin/userdel: No such file or directory21:32
LoCusF/var/lib/dpkg/ line 40: /usr/sbin/groupdel: No such file or directory21:32
LoCusFthats during the reinstallation of the SDK21:32
lardmanis your distro lacking?21:33
LoCusFI don't think so21:34
javispedroapol: are you sure what you're experiencing is something sbox specific and doesn't happen on device?21:34
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apoljavispedro: no21:35
apoljavispedro: i don't have a device, maybe I can try tomorrow21:35
javispedroapol: if it happens on device too, probably you're missing the appropiate window flags21:35
povbot`Bug 6606: No getopts, called by init-functions (lsb-core)21:36
apoljavispedro: do I need specific window flags? XD21:36
javispedrowait, i'm looking for the bug #21:36
apol(I'm using plain qt, porting a desktop app)21:36
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timeless_mbpanyone here know the name of the book that talks about a tiny little country declaring war against the world21:36
timeless_mbpwhere the world surrenders21:36
RST38hbug 666621:36
povbot`Bug was not found.21:36
RST38hAha. Not yet.21:36
timeless_mbpand the poor country is in trouble because of that?21:36
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timeless_mbp(the small country just wanted money)21:36
zemmis there particular straightforward reason why symlinking parts of /usr/.. to 2GB /home on n900 would be total fail? other than the slower mmc21:36
RST38h"Marshal Kim Jong Il Selected Works Individual Works Philosophical Writings and Biography"21:37
zemmi know this has been discussed before but couldn't find answer for if it's totally wrong21:37
RST38hThis one?21:37
* lardman hopes gmp will build this time as the packaging errors happen at the end and the build & test process takes lots of time & cpu21:37
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javispedroapol: didn't find the bug report, but we were discussing that here
lardmanzemm: probably not, as long as it's not umounted when the usb is attached21:38
timeless_mbpzemm: how many reasons do you want?21:38
javispedroapol: basically you can use "xprop" to check if this is the case.21:38
timeless_mbplardman: home isn't usb risky21:38
Stskeepsbug 66621:38
povbot`Bug Problems with Javascript setTimeout function21:38
guestuscan anyone tell me if they think Nokia will allow keyboard layout replacements by servicing?21:38
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lardmantimeless: what other reasons have you tucked away then? :)21:38
timeless_mbpzemm: basically what people did was look for the simplest, fastest, "safest" fix21:38
fnordiansliptimeless_mbp: sounds like the file "the mouse that roared"21:38
zemmwell can it be more bad than bricking with 100% usage on / ?21:38
timeless_mbpfnordianslip: it is21:38
timeless_mbpzemm: anyway21:38
timeless_mbpthe problem is...21:39
timeless_mbpwe're stupid...21:39
zemmyes i know, i wasn't talking about general situation, just for myself :)21:39
timeless_mbp... we use debian21:39
lardmanzemm: well that can always happen no matter hw large your storage21:39
timeless_mbpdebian uses a package management system (dpkg, apt, whatever)21:39
pr0t0typedoes anybody use piiptv ?21:39
timeless_mbpnow, if you have symlinks to a secondary file system21:39
timeless_mbpand if you support a means for reflashing the primary file system21:39
timeless_mbpand files on the secondary system get out of sync because of this reflash21:39
lardmanaaaargh, so close and yet so far21:39
timeless_mbpyou're mostly in deep trouble, because you violated a constraint that dpkg assumed21:39
apoljavispedro: do you know how can I use xprop?21:40
timeless_mbpthat's problem #121:40
timeless_mbp(actually, this problem exists in the /opt hack too)21:40
timeless_mbp(but not as bad)21:40
timeless_mbpmostly, when i tried to move microb to /home, i messed up, and bricked my device21:40
timeless_mbpthen i got tired/distracted, and moved along :)21:40
guestuscan anyone tell me if they think Nokia will allow keyboard layout replacements by servicing?21:41
zemmwell while i didn't fully understand the flashing thing, this was the answer i was looking for ;)21:41
timeless_mbpguestus: call nokia care and ask?21:41
timeless_mbpnokia care is a group distinct from maemo devices21:41
guestusi can't now, it's the weekend :)21:42
guestusjust wondering if it's something they do21:42
zemmmaybe i'll try to manage. 49MB free and don't have all the small packages (<500kb) that i want. those add up in quantities :(21:42
timeless_mbpguestus: schedule a call for monday :)21:42
javispedroapol: use your host's xprop, just set $DISPLAY to point to Xephyr and run xprop, then click on the suspicious window21:42
pr0t0type what streaming formats do work on the n900 ?21:43
apollet's see..21:43
guestussure - as I said, just wondering if it's something they do. surely the N900 is not the first device with a keyboard21:43
pr0t0typei want to stream tv from my pc to the n90021:43
lardmanguestus: well there is the poll about what to put on the kb....21:43
javispedroapol: basically look for "Client accepts input or input focus: True"21:43
timeless_mbpguestus: so, old nokia phones have keypads for which you can buy replacements21:44
timeless_mbpwith alternate layouts21:44
timeless_mbpbut the n900 isn't an old phone21:44
timeless_mbpin theory someone w/ an n810 might have done this21:44
timeless_mbpbut in practice most people don't21:44
guestusthere's websites in china with spare n97 keypads, so I guess it's doable21:44
timeless_mbpbe smart, buy an en[us/gb]/dutch layout21:44
guestusjust wondering if it's doable by Nokia, without opening it up myself21:45
apoljavispedro: shows clicks but not key presses as far as I see21:45
guestusI have a chance to buy one for 200€, but it's with only 2 cursor keys21:45
guestusso it's appealing... :)21:45
kynkypr0t0type, if mplayer works, then i would say you can stream tv from pc to n90021:45
apoljavispedro: well, I'll have to investigate more -.-21:46
javispedroapol: if that hint is set every key press will just go to the focused window, which is usually either xterm or the desktop21:46
javispedros/set/not set21:46
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javispedro(basically the "previous" window you were looking at before launching your app)21:46
apolso maybe I have to set the focus to the window?21:47
yannjtimeless_mbp  : thanks for your answer on
povbot`Bug 6359: Geolocation show the wrong country when more than one country code in cities database21:47
apolit happens right after showing a fullscreen window21:47
apoljavispedro: ^21:47
javispedroapol: you have to set that hint and the window manager should take care of..21:47
javispedroouch. then maybe you're hitting a wm bug?21:47
zemmguestus: you can change the kb layout from settings and get full arrow keys if you don't mind the wrong symbols21:47
guestuszemm: also wondering if the up/down is THAT necessary on the device and if so, do the extra keypresses to get them matter21:48
timeless_mbpyannj: thanks for appreciating it21:48
lardmanare there any bugs against the slide to unlock screen?21:48
yannjtimeless_mbp : do you think I can help in something else?21:48
zemmi have 2 cursor kb and actually just tried to change the settings, seems to work :) but actually, i haven't even missed those21:49
zemm..having owned the thing for one day21:49
guestuszemm: thanks for your insight ;)21:49
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timeless_mbpsp3000, w00t , yannj : let's use #maemo-clock21:49
apollardman: maybe it's a bug, because I get the key presses on the window underneath21:50
pr0t0typekynky that's my problem. mplayer recognizes the url. but it wont stream. can connect to server,but no stream21:50
zemmi remember to have asked that myself from various people and didn't get the answer ;)21:50
lardmanapol: under the slide to unlock screen?21:50
lardmanthat's a whole different bug :)21:50
javispedroapol: you're describing the exact symptoms of what you get when you don't set the "accept focus" hint -- did you check if it's set on your qt window?21:51
lardmananyone want to upload something to the Fremantle builder, do it quick as gmp is about to bring it to its knees21:51
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javispedro(i mean, it's either a maemo-qt bug, a wm bug, or -- still not discarded until it's tested -- xephyr bug)21:52
apoljavispedro: i don't have the whole environment running21:52
apoljust my application21:52
apolmaybe I should start it xD21:52
javispedrorunning without wm is here be dragons :)21:53
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apoljavispedro: when I run it I get a qt error21:55
apoljavispedro: "QGtkStyle was unable to detect the current GTK+ theme."21:55
apolyay xD21:55
javispedrouse " <binary>"21:55
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apoljavispedro: well, now it looks like maemo21:57
redeemanhmm, is it a bug that the return OSD key in xterm doesn't actually do it if you write some text inthere?21:57
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oops6_4hey I am trying to install qt on scratchbox its giving an error "/scratchbox/tools/bin/sh: line 1: /usr/sbin/dpkg-preconfigure: No such file or directory"21:57
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apoljavispedro: i still have the same problem though -.-21:57
javispedrothat's not an error, but a "warning"21:57
javispedroapol: have you used xprop to check for the hint? was it there?21:58
lardman~lart mpfr configure script for not being able to find gmp.h which exists in /usr/include21:59
* infobot frags mpfr configure script with his BFG9000 for not being able to find gmp.h which exists in /usr/include21:59
valdynoops6_4: that should be dpkg-reconfigure, not "preconfigure"21:59
javispedrowell, apt on the sdk tends to complain about missing dpkg-preconfigure from time to time21:59
javispedroup so far it has never halted due to that.21:59
oops6_4valdyn: but that's what the error/warning messages says so how do I change the reconfigure preconfigure22:00
valdynoops6_4: edit the shell script its running22:00
apoljavispedro: << that's the output I get22:01
oops6_4valdyn: I am executing apt-get install libqt4-dev22:01
javispedroapol: so the focusable hint is there. then I basically dunno what's going on.22:02
oops6_4valdyn: the whole trace is
apoljavispedro: thanks anyway :)22:02
javispedrooops6_4: the issue here is messagebus being an invalid user of course22:05
oops6_4javispedro: I have added user messagebus on my host system and alsoe sbox_adduser messagebus22:06
oops6_4what else I have to so here22:06
javispedrosbox_adduser doesn't do what you think it does :)22:07
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javispedrooops6_4: can you do "apt-get --reinstall install dbus"22:08
oops6_4javispedro: hey tried that again some error almost same
javispedrommap permission denied triggers a ring22:10
javispedrorings a bell, I mean :)22:11
javispedroI remember some notes about that issue on the SDK release notes22:11
jebbaya, i tried to install a package in SDK and it complained that only root can adduser ...  but no running root in SDK AFAICT22:11
javispedrojebba: that's what you have fakeroot for22:11
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oops6_4javispedro: what's that means and what to do now22:11
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javispedrooops6_4: google:
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jebbaah duh. thx javispedro22:16
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lardmanDebianisationeration gurus, perk up your ears!22:22
lardmandh_install -plibgmp3-dev -Xgmp-mparam.h build/gmp*.h $(CURDIR)/debian/tmp/usr/include22:22
lardmanseems to install the gmp_arm.h file to debian/tmp/usr/include/22:22
lardmanbut that file is not included in the package22:22
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lardmanany ideas why?22:22
oops6_4javispedro: hey thanks for the link but I tried everything nothings work22:23
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javispedrooops6_4: after trying that mmap fix you'll probably have to reinstall dbus again (or probably the entire sdk..)22:24
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oops6_4javispedro: entire sdk is I can so do I have to 1st uninstall the current one if yes then please tell me how22:25
david__damn how many incorrect sudo password attempts do I get?22:25
javispedrooops6_4: try first reinstalling dbus and see if "mmap: permission denied" still appears.22:26
david__seriously does it lock up after a few?22:26
jebbasudo gainroot       should just do it david__22:26
jebbadavid__:  no22:26
oops6_4javispedro: no its giving the same error22:27
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javispedrothen no need to reinstall since it will fail22:28
oops6_4javispedro: then how do I install libqt4-dev on this can you help22:29
javispedroinstalling qt4-dev is probably not your biggest problem. most probably nothing runs on the armel target.22:29
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david__how do I call "Notes" from the command line to open a conf file?22:32
SpeedEvilwhat is the approved manner for sending a SMS. It can't be the conversation app in the app-menu can it? Or are you supposed to make a desktop link if that's importantt o you?22:34
jyskyother way to do it is just simply start it from contact tha you are sending sms22:35
timeless.. in the browser22:35
lardmanhildonmime with sms: at the start of the url22:36
plr_speed you can just start typing contact name and then choose it and sms22:36
lardmanI use that in mbarcode22:36
simula_does anyone know how to turn off the accelerometer for use with open arena?22:36
david__damn is it just me or what?  Is there  a way to enter the ~ symbol? it won't work22:37
jyskyamyone got multiple google calendars synced with n900 calendar?22:37
lardmantap it twice, or once + space after22:37
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david__ah ty22:37
david__hey apt-get remove --purge <name> will completely remove an app right?22:41
jyskyweird that hw keyboard doesn't have &-charackter22:42
timelessmy, aren't we vindictive?22:42
* SpeedEvil passes jysky some tippex.22:42
jyskyhe. but now i can't have it in any password. i'd liked to have good passwords22:43
david__heh I just purged Xournal, and my rootFS used increased?? wtf22:44
SpeedEvildavid__: I dunno22:45
SpeedEvildavid__: try a reboot22:45
valdynoops6_4: its -preconfigure in this case i think, i dont know why its not there22:45
david__during uninstallation it said:  gtk-update-icon-cache:  Cache file created successfully22:45
david__said that twice22:45
david__what is that?22:45
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david__what should the rootfs size be at before it becomes unstable?22:46
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kynkyis openarena and openarena-data optified? im guessing it is22:47
valdynoops6_4: mind, im really a debian guy and dont know much about maemo, however dpkg-preconfigure should be in the "debconf" package22:47
david__I hate that the terminal doesn't remember commands unless it's in the same windows22:48
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david__SpeedEvil, rootfs went down after reboot22:48
david__down to 74%22:48
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oops6_4valdyn: you mean I should install debconf then try the other stuff is it ?22:50
valdynoops6_4: yea, probably22:50
AakashPatelanyone here good with protobufs?22:51
valdynoops6_4: theres no "real" debian system without debconf, so this is already one point where your setup is significantly different -> see above, i dont know maemo22:51
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oops6_4valdyn: yeah read that but scratch box is kinda deb so we can try22:52
valdynoops6_4: debconf is also "Priority: required", so you dont see an explicit Dependency for that package22:53
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oops6_4valdyn: I tried installing the debconf but again the same -preconfiguration error22:54
valdynoops6_4: Priority: required packages are part of the debian bootstrap -> you may not be able to install debian packages without them already being installed22:54
valdynoops6_4: but you can dpkg -x the package contents22:55
valdynoops6_4: -x just unpacks contents22:55
oops6_4valdyn: but what's the fun in doing that22:56
valdynoops6_4: its not fun, its what debian does22:56
oops6_4valdyn: so you mean get the deb and do dpkg -x <file>.deb is ti ?22:57
valdynoops6_4: im talking about "dpkg -x debconf", once dpkg-preconfigure is there, you can then use dpkg -i debconf*deb22:57
valdynoops6_4: yea, exactly, and repeat for all the stuff needed to use dpkg properly22:58
oops6_4valdyn: ok thanks will try22:58
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valdynoops6_4: once then dpkg works properly you should dpkg -i the stuff you used dpkg -x for in order to make the package database match the files you have in place23:00
oops6_4valdyn: ok thanks will try23:01
SpeedEvilOdd. Rundown test on n900 with wifi and stuff active. Over 4 hours, battery voltage has risen.23:02
SpeedEvilAnd no, it's not plugged in23:02
valdyntemperature changed?23:02
SpeedEvilnope - still ~7C.23:02
fnordianslippershow do you get details of the battery state?23:02
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SpeedEvillshal|grep battery23:03
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valdynor /proc/acpi/ ?23:03
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SpeedEvilno acpi23:03
valdynI see23:03
SpeedEvil1260046584   battery.voltage.current = 4005  (0xfa5)  (int)23:03
SpeedEviland 1260046584   battery.charge_level.percentage = 77  (0x4d)  (int)23:04
hrwSpeedEvil: cat /proc/apm - can you?23:04
SpeedEvilyeah - none23:05
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timeless_mbpStskeeps: we really need to poke zenity to have better sizing behavior23:05
timeless_mbpand to use multiple columns if the items fit23:05
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redeemanhmm, is it a bug that the return OSD key in xterm doesn't actually do it if you write some text inthere?23:07
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fnordianslippersthink its always  been like that. probly a bug though23:08
lardmandoes dh_install move files or just copy them?23:08
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oops6_4valdyn: I tried the trick  to comment in /etc/apt/apt.conf.d/70debconf     given in the
jyskyany way to disable those cheeseheads on conversation?23:09
oops6_4valdyn: so that error gone23:09
oops6_4valdyn: but this is still there
SpeedEvil hal-get-property  --udi /org/freedesktop/Hal/devices/bme --key battery.voltage.current even23:12
lardmanhmm, very confusing, my include file is even in the debian/<pkg name> dir and yet doesn't get installed23:14
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Sargunwhere can I find documentation of the N900's APIs?23:18
jebbaman buisybox instead of bash/coreutils causes lots of agony23:18
jebbaspent the last hour just to realize the problem was because there is no `groups` command....23:19
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oops6_4valdyn: this is the error I am getting always when I start installing Dbus
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derfIs there anyone around that could help with a bugger of an automake problem?23:39
paroneayeaso my new data plan stuff kicked in with t-mobile23:40
paroneayeabut I can't connect to their internet service23:40
derfI am getting23:40
derf/bin/sh: cygpath: command not found23:40
derfI am, of course, not using cygwin. At all. Or any related Windows thing.23:40
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Xisdibikparoneayea: did you get a sim card from them?23:42
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paroneayeaXisdibik: yeah, I am on their phone service and that works fine.23:42
Xisdibikstrange, mine worked fine right from start23:42
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XisdibikI even get signal and data in a spot that doesnt have service apparently :)23:44
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Xisdibikbecause my mothers house is about a block out of their service map.23:45
* SpeedEvil is happy about the ridiculouslygood deal from tmobile(uk)23:47
SpeedEvilpay 20 quid (~32$) and get 6 months internet with 1G/mo fair use.23:48
StargazersN900 hangs again :S23:48
StargazersUI does not respond but I can ssh to it23:48
StargazersAnd when I torate phone the UI will change orientation well23:49
StargazersBut I cannot press anything23:49
valdynStargazers: restart the window manager? i think thats matchbox23:49
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StargazersThat is what I am trying to find :)23:49
woglindehm where do I get the deb-line for libgles2-sgx-img-dev again?23:50
javispedroah, repository?23:50
javispedro*-sgx-* should be in the private nokia repos (-binaries, -apps)23:50
javispedroon the x86 target, libgles2-dev is on extras-devel .23:50
Stargazersvaldyn: Any idea how I can restart it23:50
woglindeif I remember I have subscribe and get a personal deb line23:50
valdynStargazers: that was just a wild guess: but you can try anyway: killall matchbox ( and if that does not give an error ), start it again, run "matchbox"23:51
valdynStargazers: and if killall doesnt exist you need to use "kill <pid>"23:51
StargazersWell there is no process matchbox23:51
StargazersAnd not found in grep in ps23:51
valdynStargazers: bad luck, maybe thats just matchbox in maemo 423:51
StargazersWell, yeah23:51
XisdibikSpeedEvil: that is a good deal23:51
StargazersHmm have to look then what it could be23:52
naxxatoe any good devs around that want to work on a cool piece of software for the n900 with me (i am bad ad graphical stuff and i have a really awsome idea)23:52
StargazersWTF :D23:52
StargazersNow it is rsponding again23:52
StargazersJust wait, wait and wait more23:53
naxxatoelol ;)23:53
StargazersWell now I can continue movie o/23:53
jebbawaz the good idea naxxatoe ?23:53
StargazersThat TV-out rocks too!23:53
StargazersBut thanks for help, see ya! :)23:53
woglindehm ah javis ->
naxxatoebasically a finance/budget management tool23:53
javispedrowoglinde: if you can boot the user interface, you have the nokia repos correctly installed23:54
naxxatoeto track your expenses, the problem with computer based solutions is that they are really uncomfortable to use23:54
naxxatoeand the ones that exist on linux so far are made for ppl with background in accounting23:54
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woglindejavis I use sdk+23:54
naxxatoei have a ueber cool idea on how that should function, and what it needs to look like23:54
javispedroshouldn't matter.23:54
naxxatoeto be easy to use for everyone and still very practial and good23:55
woglindeit matters23:55
woglindebecause fremantle minimal has not this line23:55
woglindebut now its okay23:55
paroneayeaXisdibik: figured out why, called customer service and apparently they hadn't set the "smartphone" field for us in their database23:56
paroneayeaat least, thankfully, that wasn't any additional charge for them to do23:56
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naxxatoejebba: get the idea?23:56
jebba1 sec23:56
jebbaah ya. I'm not so concerned about tracking money tho!  heh.  good luck tho  :)23:57
naxxatoeneather am i, but just because i dont need something really hard, ususally doesnt stop me from building good stuff23:57
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woglindehrms no libmagick++ yet23:58
woglindeokay next debian package23:58
naxxatoeits just that my skills in writing user interfaces suck, vs my skills in high performance computing beeing great, and imagining on how it looks like on paper is great aswell23:58
woglindeto build23:58
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naxxatoefor example, me and a friend built a presentation tool for linux called douf00, userinterface design by me, background magic was half of my thing, and the graphical stuff was his ;)23:59

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