IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2009-11-27

kalikianait's as if Microsoft were to sell a washing machine called windows 800:00
DantonicHey anyone here use VNCviewer from an N8X0?00:00
PaulFertserlardman: i do not like the car analogy. Updating software on a computer is easy and free. In the end, n810 is just a general purpose embedded computer, i can't see what makes it so different that one might want to not update it ever.00:00
vasily_pupkinI try00:00
vasily_pupkintotally unusable :]00:00
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lardmanPaulFertser: yes, I agree with you about it being possible, but it's about who provides the labour really00:01
PaulFertserkalikiana: that's Openmoko Inc., not the (TM). The phone devices were called gta01 and gta02 (aka Neo1973 and FreeRunner).00:01
Dantonicjohnx, are you here?00:01
lcukDantonic, yeah00:01
Dantonicoh hi lcuk!00:01
Dantonichey I was wondering... I'm vncing into my ubuntu 9.10 desktop... but from the N800 when I'm viewing the desktop I can click and move the mouse around but the changes do not display in the N80000:02
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Dantonicthe changes happen on the desktop only00:02
kalikianaPaulFertser, maybe their marketing was bad then. I'm not following that closely and what I said is what I understood from the announcements00:02
PaulFertserlardman: that's the difference between what nokia does and what debian and other nice folks do. Nokia aims to support only their current device. Other folks try to support all the devices. Do you choose "happiness for everybody" or "happiness for my customer"? Nokia apparently does the latter.00:02
lcukDantonic, you logged into the same session with your server?00:02
lardmanNokia are a commercial entity though00:02
lardmanwhy would they provide support forever?00:03
PaulFertserBeing commercial doesn't mean they shouldn't try to make everybody happy00:03
lardmanI mean they could do, but the device would then cost quite a lot more00:03
kalikianaPaulFertser, you are a damn idealist :-)00:03
PaulFertserLOL, n900 already costs a fortune.00:03
PaulFertserkalikiana: indeed00:03
Dantoniclcuk, excuse me, I'm pretty new at vnc...  I have a vnc server session setup in ubuntu 9.10 it's the "Vino" built in remote desktop program.  then  I simply log into the desktop's IP from the N80000:03
mikhasPaulFertser, being commercial means exactly that, to choose a target audicene and make them happy00:03
lardmanabsolutely, try, and they are doing so, making it as easy as possible within the constraints of a commercial world, for us to develop the platform00:04
kalikianaPaulFertser, I'm sorry to say that reality doesn't work like that00:04
mikhasonly happy customers are loyal customers etc pp00:04
lcukDantonic, dunno, but linux has many sessions and if your vnc server is connected to the wrong one then it will show its own instance00:04
PaulFertserkalikiana: that's why i prefer to distort reality in my mind to see it the other way :P00:04
Dantoniclcuk, so I have to loginto the session in the server as well? not sure how that works... I thin kvino just sets it up and you just logon no?00:04
w00tand I thought only Steve Jobs had the reality distortion field effect00:04
kalikiana:-P00:04
QuibusI do hope SDL is available for Maemo... but I suppose it is.00:05
lcukDantonic, i dunno  i dont use kvino or anything on linux side yet00:05
Dantoniclcuk, what do you use? do you have Ubuntu? and what vnc server do you use?00:05
Dantoniclcuk, ok00:05
lcuki vnc to windows00:05
lardmanQuibus: it is00:05
Dantonicgotcha00:05
Dantonicwell thank you anyway lcuk00:05
kalikianaQuibus, yep it is00:05
PaulFertsermikhas: being commercial means earning enough money to survive. I think nokia can pretty much afford contributing to the "world" more.00:05
Quibuswe do most platform abstraction via SDL00:05
moo__PaulFertser: n900 is cheaper than iphone (sim free)?00:06
mikhasto survive? no. it means to make as much profit as possible00:06
GAN900moo__, yes.00:06
moo__well, iphone costs super fortune so that's not much :)00:06
GAN900iPhone is about $700 unlocked.00:06
PaulFertsermikhas: then your definition of commercial is a definition of a definetely evil thing. I wouldn't advocate that.00:06
mikhasprofit is evil?00:06
w00twelcome to capitalism, enjoy your stay00:06
mikhasoh dear ...00:06
GAN900mikhas, apparently.00:06
VDVsxGAN900, can you buy one unlocked ?00:06
lcukin some countries yeah00:07
SpeedEvilPaulFertser: If your company is not maximising profits, and is not a privately held one, the shareholders can force the board to change its policy.00:07
GAN900VDVsx, depends on your locale.00:07
PaulFertsermikhas: aiming for as much profit as possible is evil, of course.00:07
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lardmannot really00:07
* qwerty12_N900 gets the Sickle and Hammer out00:07
lcukPaulFertser, depends if its your company or not00:07
PaulFertserSpeedEvil: that means evil shareholders but who advocates evil?00:07
lardmanthough as much profit as possible and needlessly killing daisies would be, yes00:07
crashanddiew00t w00t00:07
GAN900PaulFerster, companies that do that and aren't monopolies quickly go outkof business.00:07
w00tqwerty12_N900: comerade!00:08
lardmantovarish?00:08
crashanddieSpeedEvil, not really, the board can elect a new CEO who is more in line with their view00:08
* qwerty12_N900 shoots w00t with an AK-4700:08
* VDVsx gets his AK-4700:08
lardmanthough the board all all aiming to be chairman, so they probably have the same views anyway00:08
GAN900Capitalism is what got us to the ridiculously high standard of living we enjoy today.00:08
PaulFertserGAN900: i'm not sure, i think usually they find some niche market to survive.00:08
ali1234hmm some voice i don't recognise keeps calling me and i don't know if they're hanging up because they got the wrong number or because n900 phone app is broken :)00:09
GAN900STFU, qwerty12, you poser. :P00:09
crashanddieSpeedEvil, when a privately held company is in really bad shape, usually the board elects someone who will be chairholder and CEO, even though that is quite frowned upon by most employees and unions00:09
qwerty12_N900GAN900: Stop ruining the USSR-tactics re-enactment00:09
w00t:-(00:10
crashanddiethe most common case is that the CEO then becomes a kind of "visionary", but the real pilot is some other VP who gets exec powers00:10
* lcuk goes coding00:10
PaulFertserGAN900: (high standard of living capitalist way) i started to doubt it's what makes humanity better quite some ago00:10
Dantoniclcuk, I guess My problem is a Ubuntu 9.10 bug that has to do with amd64 architecture :( https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vino/+bug/44581300:11
qwerty12_N900w00t: Fine... Some vodka instead?00:11
lardmanI'm afraid I'm a devout anti-left-wingist00:11
w00tqwerty12_N900: now you're talking00:11
* VDVsx wonders why the council chairman doesn't receives thousands of euros like the other chairs :(00:11
w00tqwerty12_N900: double, please00:11
crashanddiequick vote: who is for the complete removal of usenet?00:11
GAN900qwerty12, yeah, well, I actually own one. :P And it's not illegal here.00:11
lardmanVDVsx: how do you know they didn't in the past? ;)00:11
w00tVDVsx: be more assertive!00:11
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: I'm for the complete removal of all web-forums.00:12
lardmanGAN900: you own an AK-47?00:12
PaulFertserSpeedEvil++00:12
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: usenet is far better in many ways.00:12
VDVsxlardman, ahah, that should explain GAN900 's Ferrari00:12
lcukVDVsx, we can get you thousands of euros to be chairs, but you have to be an actual chairperson then00:12
crashanddieSpeedEvil, doesn't answer the question, against I guess?00:12
ShapeshifterI'm for the removal of email.00:12
GAN900VDVsx, I forgot to tell you, Jaffa and I abolished the salary before we left. :P00:12
lardmanand ex-Soviet weapons stash from the sounds of it ;)00:12
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: You can have hundreds of different clients, and if a server goes down, no content is lost00:12
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: not, of course.00:12
GAN900lardman, they're like a dime a dozen here.00:13
lcukcan we just have a nuclear winter on the internet00:13
VDVsxbastards!!! :P00:13
lcukmonths and months without cats00:13
lardmanGAN900: hmm00:13
crashanddieSpeedEvil, I'm a moderator a couple of newsgroups on fr.* hierarchy, the question came up earlier today, though question to be honest00:13
sp3000timeless_mbp: none of what?00:13
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lcukis extras-devel totally vanished00:14
lcukor just badly wounded in a ditch somewhere00:14
crashanddieSpeedEvil, we've seen a *massive* decrease in traffic over the past couple of years. Usually I'd moderate around 20-30 messages a day, with an average of 500 messages a day on the newsgroup I moderate, however these days, we're lucky if we get 5 messages a day that are not spam00:14
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: yes.00:14
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: that's a problem.00:14
lardmanlcuk: less than a c for an Ak....00:14
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: seen the same00:14
PaulFertserlardman: if you do not like John Lennon's songs, what do you like then?00:14
crashanddieSpeedEvil, spam however, seems never to decrease :D00:15
crashanddiePaulFertser, John Lemon00:15
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: usenet never recovered from Sep 93.00:15
crashanddiePaulFertser, I think he would have been a real icon in pop culture if he had a cool name, and I dunno, maybe died tragically00:15
lardmanPaulFertser: difference between the songs and the singer ;)00:15
lcukOct09er :'(00:16
* crashanddie gave away his copy of assassin's creed 2 today00:16
lardmanyou leftie!00:16
lardmanor perhaps lefty00:16
crashanddielardman, feck off, torrie00:16
crashanddie-e00:16
lardmanlol00:17
crashanddieyou troubled my spelling!00:17
pupniklefties arent promoting personal charity00:17
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lardmanthat's the left-wing government's messing with the education system :p00:17
PaulFertserlardman: but really, do not you enjoy when people help each other, doing something good together or whatever, not thinking about the money? It happens all the time in fact, isn't it good?00:17
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lardmanyes, am quite happy about it, but that doesn't blind me to the fact that people still need money00:18
lcukPaulFertser, its great, but if helping others impedes on my ability to feed family00:18
lcuksame for everyone i think00:18
jebbajebthe problem is when you have free/open communities, they get highjacked by idiots who take up everyone's time.00:18
pupnikput food on your family00:18
PaulFertserlardman: they need money indeed but it looks logical that given current consumeristic society many people want more money than they actually need to feel happy.00:18
kalikianaPaulFertser, Call me schizophrenic but I'm an altrusit in my spare time work and still I do contract work for an evil company00:18
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kalikianaSo maybe I should hate myself for half of the day00:19
crashanddiePaulFertser, same old discussion really00:19
lardmanPaulFertser: yeah, that is perhaps true00:19
PaulFertserkalikiana: i do contract work for a stupid company, not really a difference, so i'm on a same boat it seems :)00:19
kalikianaPaulFertser, aaaaha. you admitted it :-)00:19
lardmanI just sit here hating DBus docs00:19
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lcuklol00:20
crashanddiePaulFertser, I've seen people in mozambique or congo who lived in utmost misery compared to our standards, however were a million times happier than most of us will ever be00:20
PaulFertsercrashanddie: same old life, nothing's changing...00:20
lcukyou connected in #dbus yet?00:20
lardmanno00:20
lcukboo00:20
lardmanthey'd shout at me ;)00:20
kalikianadon't go there or we won't see you again00:20
crashanddiePaulFertser, does that mean I'd abandon my lifestyle and go live in a shithole (well, worse than south east london)? Hell no00:20
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lcukof course, but thats half the fun00:20
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lardman /join #dbus, why are your docs so crappy?00:20
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crashanddiehttp://www.flickr.com/photos/slauwers/4136332461/sizes/l/00:21
kalikiana^^ I say 5 minutes. Who bets more than 5 minutes?00:21
crashanddielardman, i'll do that :)00:21
PaulFertsercrashanddie: but it gives you an idea that happiness is not about consuming "goods" advertised on TV, and i think that's an important point many people miss. If they didn't, the world would be a better place to live, i guess.00:21
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lardmanam beginning to think that perhaps DBus signals are not really supposed to carry information00:21
lcukshhh lardman, its not that bad, you might even recognise a few people ;)00:21
qwerty12_N900crashanddie: *cough* .au *cough*. Damn, although I only ever met you once, I'll miss you00:21
lcukicertainly do00:21
crashanddieeveryone in #dbus?00:21
crashanddieReady for the shitstorm?00:21
lardmanno no00:22
crashanddieno no what?00:22
crashanddiekalikiana, you background listener!00:22
kalikianacrashanddie, hihihi00:22
crashanddielardman, not joining?00:22
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lardmanno to abusing dbusites00:22
lardmanah go on then :)00:23
crashanddielardman, too late00:23
crashanddie[22:23] <crashanddie> I just wondered, why on earth are your docs so bloody crappy?00:23
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crashanddielardman, gimme some arguments if they ask questions00:24
lcukcrashanddie, the idea isnt to troll, its to get help for lardman00:24
crashanddiewell I can just say, "The reason for this question is that we got poor old lardman here, the one who just joined the channel, and he's just getting absolutely no where with your shite documentation."00:24
hexaworst way to get help ever...00:25
crashanddieI guess it's a good thing I don't have the maemo hostname then :P00:25
lardmanhmm, not going to be very useful00:25
qwerty12_N900hexa: http://bash.org/?15203700:26
* lardman resigns himself to looking for more examples00:26
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hexaqwerty12_N900, lol I see .. point taken00:27
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lardmanqwerty12_N900: lol00:29
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lardmanlbt: not what you expected ;)00:32
lardmanI think crashanddie has shocked all those poor people into silence00:32
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lardmannot in a good way00:32
AakashPatellolll00:32
lbtwasn't sure if there was any chat - dbus is tricky but the docs are ...... there00:32
lbtI got it working by reading them ...00:33
lardmanyeah, I'm getting there00:33
PaulFertserStskeeps: (your excellent presentation) goals presented seem to be exactly what i assumed nokia should be doing from the very beginning.00:33
lardmanmy crappy docs comment was mainly tongue in cheek00:33
lardmancould do with some more examples really00:34
ali1234i found dbus is a lot easier to deal with in python, when you don't have to worry about glib typing...00:34
QuibusOK, virtual Debian system is installing SDK...00:34
lardmanyeah, I want to use it from Python in the end, but first of all have to put the C stuff in place00:34
ali1234Quibus: why not just grab the already configured virtual sdk image?00:34
StskeepsPaulFertser: thank you, and that's what we try to do i Mer.00:34
Stskeepsin00:34
Quibusali1234: now you tell me00:34
* Stskeeps is really bothered by the amount of people having bricked devices00:35
* lbt thinks the problem is not so much dbus as glib00:35
ali1234Quibus: sorry. and i don't have a link. but i know it exists...00:35
lbtdbus in python or c++ is piss easy ;)00:35
qwerty12_N900Use libdbus, then, and not dbus-glib. *shrug*00:35
lardmanlbt: yeah, well I've already ranted about that this month00:35
lbtStskeeps: Q5/7s? or N900s00:35
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Stskeepslbt: n900s00:35
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lbtI've heard a bit ...00:35
lbtreally bricked or ...00:36
PaulFertserHow can one brick an n900? Isn't there a ROM BL of some kind?00:36
lbtI caught in passing that the flasher seems to let people enter kernel clis00:36
StskeepsPaulFertser: there's cold flashing if you have a flashing jig and warm flashing with NOL00:37
StskeepsO00:37
lardmanactually the problem is Google not pointing me to the right docs00:37
lbtI assumed it was dodgy scripts/bootmenu level and (understandable) user incompetence00:37
ali1234can we has "how to build your own jig" docs please?00:37
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Stskeepslbt: no, this is normal people getting interrupted NSUs flashing00:37
PaulFertserStskeeps: what is flashing jig? JTAG adaptor?00:37
StskeepsPaulFertser: same as on n8x0 as i assume00:38
Stskeepsi00:38
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Stskeepslbt: and end up with unflashable devices00:38
PaulFertserStskeeps: so does n8x0 or n900 boot? Is there a BL mask-programmed in SoC or what? What is running when you use "flasher"?00:39
QuibusRST38h: not sure I should ask, but what is the status of those system ROMs you include with fMSX? Do you have official permission? Or is it something you don't care about?00:39
StskeepsPaulFertser: i only know what happens in generic terms, sorry00:39
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PaulFertserStskeeps: it's a bit ironic how many nokia SW devs are actually reachable by e-mail or even on irc and _no_ hardware devs seem to participate at all.00:40
ljpparticipate in what?00:41
ali1234PaulFertser: depends what you mean by hardware devs.... there are certainly kernel devs on the linux-omap, and they would probably know how the flasher works00:41
StskeepsPaulFertser: keep in mind maemo 'hw' and 'sw' was seperated before00:41
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PaulFertserljp: in helping end-users and userspace developers?00:42
ali1234PaulFertser: i mean bootloader and other low level stuff00:42
StskeepsPaulFertser: there was a discussion on opening flasher and noone really took up the gauntlet in community00:42
PaulFertserali1234: i'm afraid the most interesting question about why n900 lacks usb host is still unanswered there.00:43
StskeepsPaulFertser: USB specification. at least with OTG. connector is removed. USB host is still not sure00:43
PaulFertserStskeeps: why not just release the source? Is it tainted?00:43
PaulFertserStskeeps: you see, even you're not sure about one of the most important hardware parts.00:43
StskeepsPaulFertser: i'm SW, not HW.00:44
Stskeeps:P00:44
Stskeepsas in, my primary area of interest00:44
StskeepsPaulFertser: there's no reason for open sourcing something that's just going to gather dust00:44
PaulFertserStskeeps: yes, but if it was easy for you, you'd have probably asked about the details long time ago.00:44
* lbt has seen Stskeeps and he's definitely SW00:44
w00tI suspect it's a case of not having a reason to ask00:44
w00tgiven that ..he's sw00:45
Stskeepswaste of time that can be better used on open sourcing more relevant things00:45
Stskeeps:P00:45
PaulFertserStskeeps: there's. Probably one day a guy will want to use flasher on his ARM or MIPS or IA64 machine and he'll clean it up.00:45
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lcuklardman, dbus issue.   the order of the args will be filo or fifo wont it00:45
lcukit wont be random (or id not expect it to be)00:45
lardmanPaulFertser: the hw is by definition otg00:45
ali1234reversing the flasher is trivial00:45
PaulFertserStskeeps: flasher seems to be such a small and not really complex app that opensourcing it shouldn't take much manpower, uploading a source tarball is rarely a challenge.00:45
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ShapeshifterI just realised that the n900 has no competition.00:46
lardmanPaulFertser: and the reason afaiu for it not supporting otg host mode is to do with the charging over usb00:46
ali1234but i suspect the flasher doesn't talk to bootloader directly, hence the seemingly "bricked" phones00:46
ShapeshifterIt's made for a specific market, and for that market, there's no other device other then this.00:46
PaulFertserlardman: OMAP SoC yes, but does it have enough additional circuity, e.g. to provide current to external devices?00:46
lardmanlcuk: yeah I'm guessing that's the case00:46
lardmanPaulFertser: I'm not sure it's even wired up to allow it atm00:47
lcukit might be worth assuming one way will work and if it fails invert it00:47
Quibusgood night folks00:47
lardmanlcuk: one will be a string, one an int, so no worries, was just wondering00:47
lardmannight Quibus00:47
PaulFertserlardman: that's the problem. It's like anyone's wondering but nobody knows. That's why i say hw guys are not participating.00:47
lcukyeah i know00:47
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ali1234well, maybe when people actually have purchased their own n900, they will take it apart and just look for themselves, how usb is wired up00:48
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lardmanPaulFertser: well we could always just try it and see00:48
ali1234but i'm not taking this loaner apart00:48
PaulFertserali1234: great plan! and stupid since somebody has schematics for sure, why not just ask them.00:48
ali1234same goes for bootloader console00:48
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ali1234PaulFertser: schematics is really irrelevant. people have reversed more boring hardware with less help from manufacturers before00:49
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PaulFertserali1234: reversing something when you should be able to just ask?00:49
ali1234sure00:50
ali1234being able to ask is the exception not the rule00:50
ali1234and if asking doesn't work, we're no worse off than with any other hardware00:50
ali1234much of which has been figured out anyway00:50
lcukPaulFertser, which maemo device have you got?00:50
StskeepsPaulFertser: did you see the q5 though?00:51
PaulFertserlcuk: my friend's got n810, and i'm a freerunner user.00:51
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Stskeepsthat may actually qualify with your beliefs00:51
lcukahhh00:51
Stskeeps:P00:51
PaulFertserStskeeps: not yet00:51
SpeedEvilI plan to try the USB host thing prolly monday00:52
lcuki tohught you had a device00:52
SpeedEvilif it arrives.00:52
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StskeepsPaulFertser: you should..00:52
AakashPateldoes the chat on maemo support yahoo and facebook?00:52
SpeedEvilSee http://xkcd.com/281/ for more info.00:52
lardmanab: ping00:52
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ali1234SpeedEvil: i already tried manually switching usb to host mode through sysfs... didn't work00:52
PaulFertserlcuk: my friend does. And btw power consumption is mad insane with 2.6.30, is it supposed to be that way or just some .config option missing?00:52
StskeepsPaulFertser: even if it's chinese 'quality', it's one of the most hackable devices i've seen.  :P00:52
ali1234but it might be disabled in the kernel or something00:52
* lardman wonders if ab has his name as a keyword, must come up a lot00:52
StskeepsPaulFertser: they removed CPU frequency scaling for N8x0 didn't they, in oma2?00:53
SpeedEvilInteresting.00:53
Stskeepsomap200:53
StskeepsPaulFertser: also wifi driver doesn't have PSM00:53
SpeedEvilali1234: with external power applied to the USB device?00:53
PaulFertserStskeeps: i'm not following it closely...00:53
ali1234SpeedEvil: no but it should detect the root hub even if nothing is plugged... it didn't00:53
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lcukPaulFertser, power consumption of what? n810? that already gets uptime rated in weeks00:53
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SpeedEvilali1234: ah00:53
lardmanali1234: talking about N900? Root hub is there00:53
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ali1234hmm ok, i did it wrong then00:54
PaulFertserlcuk: yes, on n810 with 2.6.30-rc6-something kernel00:54
SpeedEvilMy n900 is in belgium. (according to UPS)00:54
lcukon n810 with stock00:54
SpeedEvilShipping from Rotterdam apparantly.00:54
lcuki have no idea about a version, whatever the latest stable thing was00:54
lcukthat just worked00:54
ali1234lardman: are you sure though? because you can put omap-ochi into host mode and get a root hub, but with 0 ports...00:54
lcukim not a rice racer v kernels00:54
AakashPatelSpeedEvil, to the US??00:54
PaulFertserlcuk: that works indeed00:54
SpeedEvilAakashPatel: UK00:55
AakashPatelah00:55
ali1234i can't really remember what happened, and i dont have the right cables to test properly...00:55
SpeedEvilAakashPatel: I hope.00:55
AakashPatellol00:55
Oli``Seems unlikely to me but is it possible to plug USB devices into an N900 using some sort of weirdy USB gender switcher?00:55
ali1234Oli``: that's generally the idea, yeah00:55
ali1234Oli``: we don't know yet if it is possible00:55
PaulFertserPlug yes. Use -- noone knows :)00:55
ali1234it doesn't work "out of the box" we know that00:56
Oli``ali1234: whoa USB gener-switchers exist and work?00:56
lardmanali1234: I just saw it the other day while looking at the dmesg output00:56
SpeedEvilOli``: not really00:56
PaulFertserOli``: no00:56
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SpeedEvilOli``: They require the USB port to support host mode00:56
lcukswitching the gender of the plug does not change the messages sent out00:56
lardmanali1234: but certainly check someone else's output to be sure00:56
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kalikianaOli``, on the n810 it worked, but with micro-usb it's not the same00:57
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Oli``Is it a software thing? Ie can it be made to work like that in time?00:57
ali1234lardman: well i successfully got USB host mode working on my htc wizard running linux.... it doesn't officially support OTG or supply power, but works anyway00:57
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kalikianaOli``, that's the unanswered question :)00:57
ali1234lardman: but it has miniusb, i don't have the right cable to try it on n900... or the ability to compile a kernel yet00:57
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PaulFertserBTW, does n900 kernel export battery state via power_supply subsystem like all decent devices do?00:58
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pupnika few days after flashing i now have huge delays entering text into google (and other webform) searches00:59
StskeepsPaulFertser: BME's still around00:59
PaulFertserOr is it the same "we made a plugin to hal, so you now must use a hal-aware app to get the info"?00:59
ali1234it boils down to whether they used an external transceiver or not. you can tell that from looking at kernel source, or just taking the damn thing apart...00:59
lardmanali1234: I thought this was a case of not being wired up, but I was always planning to try and see if it was just a software disable00:59
SpeedEvilali1234: external transciever is vanisingly unlikely.00:59
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SpeedEvilIMO00:59
StskeepsPaulFertser: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Documentation/BME_Protocol may still apply00:59
ali1234lardman: the 5th OTG pin is "not wired up" but you dont need it for host mode01:00
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ali1234lardman: same as on all previous NIT01:00
PaulFertserStskeeps: that's hm unfortunate and doesn't really align with "this time nokia does proper integration with mainline kernel".01:00
* w00t sighs01:00
ali1234if they used an internal transceiver there is no way to block host mode, cos it's the same damn pins01:00
StskeepsPaulFertser: battery management differentation yadda yadda..at least all kernel modules are open source01:00
ali1234now it might be really flaky due to not having the right pull-ups...01:01
ali1234s/an/the/01:01
SpeedEvilali1234: yeah - but that's probably fixable extenrally.01:01
PaulFertserStskeeps: hehe, microkernel with propriatary daemons is not exactly what linux is about :)01:01
SpeedEvilWell - you have root.01:01
lardmanhmm, well my dbus-ified code compiled ok01:01
StskeepsPaulFertser: i'm personally a L4 fan.01:01
SpeedEvilstrace and gdb and friends...01:01
SpeedEvilDoes the BM01:01
PaulFertserStskeeps: i wished i could work at some university on an l4 research...01:01
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StskeepsPaulFertser: my own view is that battery management should be either in kernel space or virtualized outside the kernel.01:03
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StskeepsPaulFertser: reality isn't like this in nokia right now and we'll just have to live with it01:04
Stskeeps:P01:04
SpeedEvilMy own view is that root should be able to do everything but expode the battery.01:04
w00tpsh01:04
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w00twhat if I want to explode my battery? :-)01:04
SpeedEvilThe hardware should enforce 4.2V and 2.5V limits, and leave the rest to open-source drivers.01:04
w00tn900: terrorism edition01:04
PaulFertserSpeedEvil: (explode the battery)01:05
lcukwhats the root command to expode the battery?01:05
PaulFertserSpeedEvil: i've some interesting info for you01:05
* javispedro arrives just in time for late night "is not really oss" show01:05
w00tjavispedro: want some popcorn?01:05
PaulFertserSpeedEvil: http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/battery/PACK950925.pdf01:05
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SpeedEvilw00t: I have no problem with that - but the problem is that 12yo's may be tricked into running crap01:05
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PaulFertserSpeedEvil: read about how it was tested.01:06
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* SpeedEvil is testing some li-ion cells he accidentally charged to 4.3V01:06
SpeedEvil(oops)01:06
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PaulFertserjavispedro: you're too late, anti-capitalism flame is already over here01:06
javispedro:(01:07
DocScrutinizerwho summoned me??01:07
PaulFertserjavispedro: and i've never defended "oss", i'm all about "free software". "oss" is about the technology, "free software" is about living happily helping good people.01:07
PaulFertserDocScrutinizer: Yo :)01:07
javispedroPaulFertser: good, cause it's neither free software nor oss.01:07
PaulFertserDocScrutinizer: i'm trying to bust a myth about exploding LiIon batteries. :)01:08
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DocScrutinizerahh I see. How to explode li-ion cell. My favourite ;-D01:08
SpeedEvilPaulFertser: neat01:08
SpeedEvilPaulFertser: I've exploded them. It's fun!01:09
PaulFertserDocScrutinizer: nokia is still all about "managing batteries is uber-sensitive and hard, we're keeping the stuff proprietary for the sake of your balls".01:09
DocScrutinizersafety requirements for Li-Ion are rather harsh, to get any battery to market01:09
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SpeedEvilManaging batteries for optimal battery life now - that's a slightly harder problem.01:09
DocScrutinizerPaulFertser: lol01:09
SpeedEvilBut not really that hard.01:09
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DocScrutinizerhard enough to make fatalities really rare XD01:10
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DocScrutinizeroops, missed a line01:10
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DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: I think that's more of an issue. Nokia doesn't like to get flooded with warranty requests they have to reject due to "possible mistreatment caused by jacked firmware"01:12
SpeedEvilyeah01:12
DocScrutinizers/jack/hack01:12
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DocScrutinizersee it this way: most mobile device manufs even place humidity sensor patches inside their devices nowadays, and refuse any warranty if you coughed while bat compartment was open01:14
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SpeedEvilOne reason I'm purchasing accidental damage cover for my n900 before it leaves the house.01:15
lardmanhas anyone used phonegap?01:15
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crashanddiewhat the fuck01:24
crashanddiequestion 15 out of 15, for 1 million pounds at wwtbam01:24
crashanddie"A number one followed by one hundred zeros is known by what name?" A Googol, B Megatron, C Gigabit, D Nanomole01:25
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crashanddiethat's like the easiest bloody question ever01:25
Klownerit's quite obvious what is ISN'T01:25
Klowneryay deduction01:25
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crashanddiewell, even that, but Google quite popularised what "Googol" was01:25
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KlownerI dunno, I'm sure a lot of people would be like "hahah, they misspelled google!"01:26
Klowner"google is a search engine, it must be ananomole"01:27
SpeedEvil...01:27
SpeedEvil6.26*10^-17?01:27
lardmanthe wonders of ieee75401:28
javispedro1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001:28
lardmanjavispedro: go for a googolplex01:29
lardmanuse pastebin tho!01:29
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javispedro10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001:30
javispedro000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001:30
javispedro... :)01:30
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lardmanthis then:01:31
lardman    10001:31
lardman  1001:31
lardman1001:31
zash>9k01:32
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SpeedEvilgoogool!01:33
b-man17lol01:33
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type_tlets talk maemo now..01:35
lardmango for it01:35
javispedrowhen is the n900 released?01:36
Macerdamn the girl in V is so damn hot01:36
Macerthe blonde one01:36
Macershe just made the list of 501:36
SpeedEvilhttp://s2.b3ta.com/host/creative/13/1258995948/7up.gif01:36
SpeedEvil:)01:36
type_twhat sizes of manufacurer models of flash are fast?01:37
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AakashPatelHow many nokia employees are in this channel?01:37
type_tthat made no sense.01:37
AakashPatelUh01:38
AakashPatelwhat?01:38
AakashPatelyeah it did01:38
AakashPatelHow many...nokia employees...are in this channel01:38
SpeedEviltype_t: what do you mean01:38
type_tnokia doestn waste time in here this is no Job!01:38
SpeedEviltype_t: many makers produce various fast flashes.01:38
AakashPatelHaha in #android google employees always are there01:38
AakashPatelSo was jsut wondering if its the same here :)01:39
SpeedEviltype_t: or do you mean specific interfaces of flash - like SD or ...01:39
fralsyou know ur at a good pub when someone mistakes a 1 for a 9 and someone exclaims "well, its only one bit difference", right?01:39
w00tthey're likely lurking01:39
SpeedEvilThere is not an official nokia presence here.01:39
javispedroAakashPatel: it's post midnight in finland01:39
w00tbut what he said01:39
type_tyes SpeeEvil and size matters ..ofcourse Size matters if you catch my drift..:p01:39
MacerV is the bomb. :)01:39
Macerawesome show01:39
AakashPateljavispedro, thats a good point01:39
AakashPatellol01:39
AakashPatelMacer, really?01:40
AakashPatellooks stupid to me hah01:40
* javispedro ponders doing something evil, like installing a symbian sdk01:40
AakashPatel(all i've seen is the commericals)01:40
AakashPatelcommercials*01:40
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kalikianaAakashPatel, they are here now and then, but you wouldn't find them wearing a big label :-)01:42
MacerAakashPatel: hell yeah01:42
Macerjust because Laura Vandervoort is so hot haha01:42
AakashPatelkalikiana, haha okay01:42
Macerdamn. there are a lot of hot ass actresses from canada01:42
Maceri think i need to go to ontario01:42
AakashPatelUh01:43
AakashPatelMacer, its boring there01:43
AakashPatelhaha01:43
* kalikiana prefers arses over asses.01:43
Macerhttp://osck.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/itb2-0002.jpg01:43
type_tmodeling is a gateway to pron. yeah .01:43
AakashPatelkalikiana, nice arse01:43
SpeedEviltype_t: Not always.01:43
AakashPatelMacer, holy shit01:44
MacerAakashPatel: good. maybe the hot women future actresses need a bad inner city urban american youth01:44
SpeedEviltype_t: Hypersonic gas dynamic modeling rarely is.01:44
MacerAakashPatel: told you. she's hot man01:44
Macerhaha01:44
SpeedEvilSammich, Stat!01:44
AakashPatelMacer, Got that right o.o01:44
Macermorena baccrain is pretty hot too. she was the prostitute in firefly01:44
Macershe is the V leader in V :)01:44
fralshttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=35204, loving this op01:44
AakashPatelWoah taht chick with the brown hair in the commericals?01:45
Maceryeah01:45
Macershe was the firefly prostitute :)01:45
lcukfrals, hi01:45
AakashPatel:001:45
fralslcuk, hi!01:45
Macerthe dude who was the firefly pilot was in V for a couple of episodes01:45
Maceri think science fiction actors all hang out in the same circles or something01:46
Macerthey are always all on the same shows01:46
Macerlike they move here and there... but you'll always catch one guest appearing almost all the time01:46
type_tshit attracts flies!..01:47
Maceri loved the old V :) classic01:47
type_topss did i write that. yeahhh..01:47
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* SpeedEvil eats a mouse.01:48
crashanddielardman, we get a reply! wooooooooo01:49
fralswishes the obsession with java in his uni would end so he could do some c-programming before graduating :<01:49
frals/me ;o01:49
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crashanddiefrals, java programming is a good skill to have, depending on the industry you're aiming at01:49
lcukfrales, hows mms coming on, are you near point where UX might be considered01:49
AakashPatelmmm java01:49
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lcukor still ironing out technicals01:50
AakashPateli needa learn some C for maemo :/01:50
AakashPatelfrals, you're workin on MMS?01:50
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lardmandoes anyone know if the hildonmime uir handler will automatically open the browser for an http:// link, or will it look at the file at that link?01:50
fralslcuk: well, the techincal *might* be working, depending if this python libs i got is working like i think, then its just the UX left, but i have a feeling it wont work :D01:50
lcuki dont mind it not working01:51
lcukbut theres the maemo long weekend coming up01:51
lcukwhen some of nokias best ux people will be together01:51
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fralsi got the api for wappush from a really kind nokian (and thanks to qgil for mentioning it @ the office)01:51
AakashPatelwhat's UX stand for01:51
lcukand i thought it might be good to hash out some ux concepts01:51
lcukuser experience01:51
fralstrue, i figured there are better projects to put that effort on atm as this mms hasnt progressed as far as other projects01:52
lcukand since folks from conversations ui and other major areas will be tehre01:52
lcukok, if its not ready thats cool01:52
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lardmanfrals: hey, I'm planning on hildon mime sending mms: uris to the mms program what/when ever it appears!01:53
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fralscrashanddie: yes java is quite nice, but while looking for a "graduate work" (not sure of the english term, swedish term is "exjobb", last thing i do before graduating) is all looking for c/c++ ;(01:53
lcuko_O didnt know transmission client was built into ubuntu by default01:54
lcukthats clever01:54
crashanddielcuk, transmission's performance is shit though01:54
crashanddiefrals, the important thing is concepts01:54
lcuki can get my new ikea catalog without installing other stuff01:54
lcukdoesnt look bad performance here01:54
lcukwhats wrong with it?01:54
crashanddiefrals, after that, switching to another language is easy peasy, you just need to learn the syntax, but logic remains the same really01:55
fralsyeah, got plenty of that, had a "dynamic pl" course where we had to learn python/ruby, and its really fast to learn a new language once you got the basics01:55
crashanddielcuk, dunno, just very slow for me01:55
crashanddielcuk, compared to utorrent through wine01:55
lcukmeh, worksforme01:55
javispedrooh01:55
fralslardman: im slightly intoxicated and not a native speaker of english, could you rephrase that? ;-)01:55
javispedroutorrent through wine was deadly slow here :S01:55
fralswhat ive seen (on torrentsites) utorrent+wine >>>> transmission01:56
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lcukanyone want a brew?01:56
SpeedEvilmldonkey works for me01:56
javispedrooh, they're still alive? :)01:56
lcuktorrents depend on more than the client01:56
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crashanddieI had a torrent running through transmission, for 2 weeks it finished 20%01:58
crashanddieswitched it over to uTorrent, finished it in 2 days01:58
fralsanyway thanks for the heads up lcuk but its too far off for worrying about ux atm :)01:58
julianolivercrashanddie: deluge is pretty good i find.01:58
crashanddie(well, it was 18gig, admittedly)01:58
lcukcrashanddie, thats a big ikea catalog? were you getting the entire historical versions?01:59
crashanddielcuk, ?01:59
crashanddielcuk, very big ikea catalog02:00
fralsits common knowledge the only thing you get through torrents is the ikea catalog ;-)02:00
crashanddiemultiple catalogues at once actually02:00
crashanddieI wanted to have the different seasons, see if their product changed a lot over time02:00
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lcuki often find reviewing the first year of catalogs is enough to know if i need to download the other intermediate years02:01
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javispedro"In terms of publishing quantity, the catalogue has surpassed the Bible as the most published work[..."02:02
SpeedEvilIn the beginning was the word. And the word was AllenKey.02:03
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* javispedro reads about IKEA catalog porn and realizes why everybody wants those catalogs so badly02:05
* javispedro notes we now have a spanish thread in tmo02:07
crashanddiejavispedro, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOx9uQ4cuJk02:08
Arkenoihow much does docs2go cost? the "buy" link is broken (epic fail)02:08
fralsi feel sorry for the mfe dev posting on talk and who got overwhelmed with the same question over and over02:09
Arkenoiif it is $10 i'd proably buy it, if it's $50+ it is damn too much for a stupid viewer02:09
espadav8_L_i just read that the n900 isn't going to be released in Oz :(02:09
Arkenoifrals: wow, any news on mfe?02:09
javispedroDataViz is not a cheap company02:09
fralsArkenoi: just reading through http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=3513602:10
kynkyhow do you use function keys in terminal on n900 ?02:10
kynkylike f1 f2 etc02:11
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lardmancan I do strstr(p,'\n')?02:14
julianoliveri wonder what on earth Engadget reviewer Thomas Ricker was referring to when he said: "This Cortex-A8 phone with 32GB of on-board storage is ripe with potential and the perfect holiday gift for grandma as long as she's comfortable dropping into the X Terminal for the occasional "rm -R /home/user/.microfeed" command"02:14
* AakashPatel goes to read a C++ book02:14
lardmanin C02:15
AakashPatelmaemo lets you use C/C++ right?02:15
lardmanyeah02:15
AakashPatelcoolio02:15
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pupnik_kynky: good question for dosbox users too02:15
Arkenoijulianoliver, *lol* exactly02:16
javispedrojulianoliver: engadget review?02:16
Arkenoijulianoliver, it is a wonderful thing but selling it to joe average user is suicide02:16
julianoliverjavispedro: yes. it seems some reviews are enjoying beating up the N900.02:16
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AakashPatelpow pow02:16
julianoliverArkenoi: something of an exaggeration in the above case no?02:16
kynkypupnik_, maybe answer is xmodmap, just was hopingit was something default02:17
javispedropupnik_: if you use my patched dosbox and nokia.sys function keys should be Chr+Q (F1) , Chr+W(F2)...02:17
* julianoliver gets back on with some ARMEL target fun.02:17
kynkychr ?02:17
pupnik_nice javispedro!  will that get into package?02:18
javispedroaw yes, this is n81002:18
pupnik_k02:18
javispedrojulianoliver: if there's a engadget review, I want URL.02:19
* kalikiana wants a modmap for faster accent typing02:19
lardmanhmm, does application manager no longer handle .install as a uri type?02:19
kynkyi chr a special software button on dosbox ?02:19
Arkenoijulianoliver, kind of. but i've already got home file system mounted r/o because of interrupted file operation and reboot. as there is no fsck in startup scripts to handle that, end user solution would be reformat internal memory.. if he even manages to diagnose it properly :-/02:19
javispedrokynky: it is when you use my dosbox build02:20
kalikianakynky, chr is a hardware key on the n81002:20
javispedroah, that.02:20
javispedroignore me and listen to kalikiana :)02:20
kynkyso no easy way other than xmodmap to use f9 key in xterm (its handy in htop)02:21
Arkenoiis there any good (ur just usable) pgp gui frontend for maemo? just for simple operations like encrypt/decrypt file or clipboard?02:21
kalikianakynky, do you need f9 in particular or a certain function?02:21
Arkenois/ur/or/02:21
infobotArkenoi meant: is there any good (or just usable) pgp gui frontend for maemo? just for simple operations like encrypt/decrypt file or clipboard?02:21
kalikianayou can do a lot of things with ctrl + something02:21
kynkykalikiana, its an ncurses app, f9 allows me to kill processes02:22
lardmannight all02:23
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kalikianakynky, might be easier to modify the config then02:23
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julianoliverArkenoi: sorry to hear all that. my N900 has given me no problems at all this last week, short of a fairly poor experience of OVI maps. scratchbox is another thing..02:23
kynkyfor that specific app ?02:23
julianoliver(which is where my axe swings now)02:24
kalikianaif it's just one the app, yeah02:24
julianoliveranyway, night all.02:24
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fralsgnite all o/02:25
Arkenoijulianoliver, just my bad luck, but things like that are expected to be handled without user intervention of that kind. btw there is no by-turn voice assisted navigation yet?02:25
bobbydit's a shame that there are seemingly so many hardware failures02:25
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kynkyi would imagine using f keys could be quite common, but not sure for certain02:25
Oli``Is there a magic dance I can do to get WMV support?02:26
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javispedroyeah, transcoding02:26
kynkymplayer supports some wmv02:26
Arkenoioli: mplayer should do02:26
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monty_wow its busy in here :)02:29
monty_anyone alive ?02:30
javispedroGod is alive. you can find him in tmo.02:30
monty_grin , I was thinking my browser had gone mad and was not displaying the messeges , no probs :)02:31
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monty_worth a try although everyone is quiet , anyone got a remote desktop app working on the n900 with windows as the target machine ?02:33
monty_:)02:33
pupnik_omg this is so awesome.  Fast google map frontend for Maemo!  http://tomch.com/maemaps.html02:34
monty_have you tried it on the n900 ?02:34
monty_does it look good ?02:34
Arkenoilatitude.. i need latitude, that's why i need google maps..02:34
pupnik_it works well, dunno about look good02:35
monty_ark, I hear you, the big issue for me with the n900 is not having google maps application . have allways had this on every phone for years02:35
pupnik_it is so so so much better than std google view.  bookmark it.02:36
kynkyat least n900 can do googe maps via browser ?02:36
pupnik_oh yeah, this is sweet02:37
monty_pupnik, sorry im not following02:37
pupnik_it is a simpler frontend for google maps webpage02:37
pupnik_feels like an app now02:37
Arkenoii've heared there is j2me vm for maemo, anyone tried it?02:38
monty_well its totally different experience with a proper google maps application, street view e.t.c, ark, what do you mean by VM ?02:38
Arkenoimonty: java virtual machine, runtime environment02:39
Arkenoime differs much from se02:39
pupnik_i gotta get started with OSM though.  Do my own neighborhood02:39
monty_"hides behind the sofa at all the tech terms "02:40
Oli``Is there an Open Street Maps application with directions (like Ovi maps, etc) and, for a bonus) with voice directions (like a Tom Tom)?02:40
Oli``Or a map loader so the phone isn't sucking down data all the time?02:41
pupnik_My default map on n900 works without internet connection or downloads02:42
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pupnik_not sure how OSM fetches02:42
Oli``pupnik_: Is that just because it's cached where you are?02:43
pupnik_i drove all over germany and netherlands02:43
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pupnik_if i drove to Waziristan i would probably have to download02:43
Oli``pupnik_: well I'm not sure how you've managed that... Mine takes forever to zoom in because it has to download so much02:44
pupnik_we are talking about n900 default map application?02:44
Oli``yeah02:44
pupnik_it *has* the map data on device02:44
pupnik_disconnect and see02:44
monty_what would be involved in porting a google maps application to the n900 ?02:45
pupnik_find the source02:45
pupnik_step 102:45
pupnik_holy cow - last paper02:45
monty_?02:46
monty_I take it only google could offer this port?02:46
SpeedEvilmonty_: yes. Anyone else would be violating the maps TOS.02:47
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SpeedEvilIf it was a clone.02:47
monty_that would make sence! I doubt google will be doing it in a hurry :(02:47
lcukSpeedEvil, really?02:48
AakashPatelsense*02:48
lcuki couldnt write a web browser that just happened to work really really well on maps.google.com02:48
SpeedEvillcuk: The google maps imagery and stuff has many licence conditions.02:48
lcukand was really crap at other sites02:48
lcuknot my fault tho02:48
lcukstupid c code02:48
ali1234lcuk: i was just thinking the exact same thing...02:48
SpeedEvilI plan on doing some OSM related work on the n90002:49
lcukand you will be rewarded well for it mr speedevil02:49
lcuki was reading up on osm stuff hte other day and hte slippymap implmentation stuff02:50
SpeedEvillcuk: I doubt it regrettably.02:50
lcukwith lookups from coords to tiles and stuff02:50
SpeedEvil(financially anyway)02:50
lcukvery interesting02:50
SpeedEvillcuk: yeah - it's openlayers02:50
lcukyeah i once got kicked from google for a liqbase map tile downloader i wrote02:50
SpeedEvillcuk: To do it 'properly' on a mobile device you'd want a compact binary format for the vectors. Which is not quite trivial.02:50
lcuki panned across 3 states and wondered why i ran out of threads02:51
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lcukSpeedEvil, a compact vector format mmm02:51
lcukmy sketches are compact vectors02:51
SpeedEvilThe XML of the planet is ~100GB IIRC02:51
pupnik_SpeedEvil: can you elaborate this compact binary format02:51
lcuki dont need the planet02:51
lcukpupnik_, its documented02:52
lcukon the osm wiki02:52
pupnik_ah02:52
SpeedEvilpupnik_: I mean - you'd need to write one. There are ideas on the website02:52
lcuki personally want to use the vector maps from the n900 map app02:52
Arkenoiit seems that wifi is much more power consuming than gprs. a bug or something? my AP thinks power saving is on and everything seems to be ok except fast battery drain02:52
lcukdownload using same tool as usual for country02:52
lcukand since the maps are on my personal device make use of them02:52
Oli``pupnik_: thanks for that... ovi maps is so much faster when it's disconnected02:53
mikhasArkenoi, check the advanced settings02:53
SpeedEvillcuk: Reverse engineering map formats can be really annoying02:53
mikhasthe difference between 10mW and 100mW02:53
mikhasadvanced settings of your stored wifi connections, that is02:53
SpeedEvil100mW?02:53
lcukspeedevil you think lots of things are annoying02:53
AakashPatelare the factory maemo img's for the n900 avail for download somewhere/02:54
lcuki think its a challenge02:54
pupnik_Oli``: i haven't noticed a slowdown :(  maybe you are in a superdense city region02:54
SpeedEvillcuk: Yes. It's a challenge - but not fundamentally an interesting one to me.02:54
AakashPatelpupnik_, you get your invite yet?02:54
lcukunderstood02:54
pupnik_haven't checked - ty02:54
mikhasSpeedEvil, yes. you can set wifi connections to use 100mW02:54
lcukwhich would be why if i was gonna start id use the osm ones02:54
Arkenoiyep, power saving is on. will try reduced power, may be this helps02:55
SpeedEvillcuk: Decoding a closed map format that may change at the whim of the vendor, and whos licence terms probably don't permit it...02:55
lcukcos its open and available02:55
lcuk^^02:55
lcuknot planning on it02:55
SpeedEvilmikhas: I don't think that's actually legal in the UK02:55
mikhasheh02:55
lcuki just think its a nice route if it could be made02:55
mikhaswhat *is* legal in the UK?02:55
lcuknothing02:55
mikhasthe more I lurk the more I get the impression it's some kind of a prison island02:55
lcuktheres a loophole for everything02:55
lcukthey can arrest you for the most innocuous tihng02:56
* javispedro is reminded of the first apps that started decoding garmin img maps02:56
monty_grin there are a lot of restrictions on freq in the uk02:56
Oli``pupnik_: isn't not that big a place - I'm on the outskirts of the 49th biggest city in the UK02:56
SpeedEvillcuk: I'm most irritated about the proposal to make it illegal to have a licensed car locked in your garage without insurance. This will cost me 200 quid a year or so.02:56
pupnik_i can confirm that it's kind of dog-slow - trying now online02:57
pupnik_but i don't really mind02:57
Oli``it's just strange02:57
pupnik_i am getting huge lags in browser02:57
pupnik_like everything stops for 10 sec02:57
SpeedEvilpupnik_: swapping?02:57
lcuktry browsing normal sites, prn tends to clog the tubes02:57
pupnik_should really be running this over a network sniffer02:57
SpeedEvilpupnik_: Check the hard disk light. :)02:58
pupnik_oh what a fantastic idea02:58
pupnik_genius02:58
SpeedEvil(or more practically, top)02:58
pupnik_use LED for read/write indicator02:58
SpeedEvilOooh!02:58
SpeedEvilno.02:58
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SpeedEvilVibrator to mirror disk seeks.02:58
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pupnik_hahahahahahahaha02:58
Oli``Woo there's finally an app for sending files over bluetooth in Extras02:58
SpeedEvilCustom disk seek noises02:59
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pupnik_while we're at it, make floppy emulation an option02:59
SpeedEvilOf course!02:59
pupnik_drrrrr-r-r-r- drrrrr-r-r-r drr-r-r-r-r <click!>02:59
lcukusing the haptic feedback thing02:59
lcuki might make an amiga 5 second02:59
pupnik_nice find Oli`` - what's it called02:59
lcukclick.....click.....click02:59
mikhasand same speed of a floppy02:59
mikhasand failure rates!03:00
Maceryou have to love sound in space03:00
mikhasthen you have to use vgacopy on your flash to repair the simulated bad sectors!03:00
pupnik_i still need to fix floppy sounds in the apple emulator03:00
Oli``pupnik_: Petrovich03:00
Macerfloppy sounds?03:00
pupnik_ty03:00
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AakashPatelHow do i add more mem to this scratchbox/xephyr03:01
AakashPatelEverytime i try to go to a web page03:01
AakashPatelit tells me low mem03:01
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crashanddieanyone got a link to the N900 pictures that made the front page of TMO some time ago?03:02
crashanddieerr, front page of maemo.org03:02
jaemAakashPatel, it's not like a VM - AFAIK there is no "memory allocated" to it03:02
AakashPateloh :/03:02
jaemI"m not sure what that error is implying03:02
jaembut probably something else03:02
AakashPatelThen how would I...do stuff03:02
jaem:P03:02
AakashPatelhaha03:02
AakashPatelI see03:02
jaemask around - it's probably some quirk03:02
AakashPatelYeah okay03:02
jaemAakashPatel, I presume the machine you're running it on has sufficient memory?03:03
AakashPateluh its in a ubuntu vm with 768MB of ram03:03
lcukAakashPatel, what tells you you are low on memory03:03
lcukan internal maemo error, or your main machine03:03
AakashPatelMaemo03:03
lcukhave you broken it installing something?03:04
AakashPateluh, i installed the browser :/03:04
Macerblah. still waiting for this crap to copy then i have to scrub again03:04
AakashPatelthats what im tryin to use03:04
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lcukmmm installed the browser?03:05
AakashPatelyeah03:05
lcukits there by default on the public final install?03:05
javispedroit is, nokia-apps.03:05
lcukjust click the gui installer03:05
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lcukand it puts it there03:05
AakashPateloh what? there's a GUI installer?03:06
mikhasAakashPatel, yeah03:06
mikhasit's great03:06
* AakashPatel did it the hard way then :/03:06
mikhasAakashPatel, http://www.forum.nokia.com/Tools_Docs_and_Code/Tools/Platforms/Maemo/03:06
javispedroand it's done in Qt already.03:06
lcukyeah03:06
lcukworks really well :)03:06
javispedroI wonder what they're going to do with all this Gtk+ know-how03:06
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mikhaswell, that is maybe the not-so-great part =p03:06
lcukit seems to just work03:07
lcukso i wouldnt complain03:07
mikhasyup03:07
GAN900Haha, if that joker in the MfE thread things Nokia was given all of the open source code in perfect working condition for "free" he's more clueless about open source, Maemo and Nokia than he could possibly imagine.03:07
mikhasit has very useful links at the end of the installation, too03:07
* GAN900 would love to see that guy boggle over @nokia commit logs.03:07
mikhasAakashPatel, I would recommend to bookmark them all =)03:07
lcukyeah :) i was really impressed the first time i ran through it03:07
AakashPatelMikaT, yeah haha i shall03:07
AakashPatelmikhas, *03:07
pupnik_sad when a forum gets less informative than an irc channel03:08
javispedroGAN900: with someone now advertising the pandora as the solution for "all our problems" what you'd expect :)03:08
pupnik_per unit time spent03:08
mikhasAakashPatel, even if you already installed sbox03:08
mikhasuse the UI installer anyway03:08
mikhasit will update your targets03:08
mikhasor create new ones03:09
mikhas=)03:09
AakashPatelalirghty03:09
mikhasand it maemofies your desktop03:09
AakashPatelinstalling :D03:09
AakashPatel:003:09
mikhasnah, just some shortcuts03:09
AakashPatelmaemofies <<I GOTTA HAVE THAT03:09
AakashPatelhahaha03:09
GAN900javispedro, we need to glass Talk.03:09
javispedrojust glass? I'd prefer to death star ray'd it.03:11
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AakashPatelinstalling :003:13
Macergr03:14
Macerdamnit03:14
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GAN900hehe03:14
GAN900We really should talk about more active moderation.03:14
AakashPatelhaha03:14
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AakashPatellol wtf at this quit message03:15
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mikhasare you laughing about someone's religious believes?03:17
AakashPatelYep, mostly at the way its written03:17
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AakashPatellol03:17
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AakashPatelI'm a harsh man03:18
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pupnik_http://www.syntax-k.de/projekte/sdl-opengl-hq  SDL->OpenGL with HQ2x scaling03:19
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pupnik_maybe god is ceiling cat03:20
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AakashPatelpupnik_, anything is possible lol03:23
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bobbydall I want is to get a unit with working hardware :)03:24
bobbydit's not too much to ask is it?03:24
GAN900~ping03:24
infobot~pong03:24
AakashPatelits $500 to ask03:25
AakashPatelhaha03:25
GAN900Haze is so broken!03:25
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bobbydthat is too much to ask!03:25
bobbyd:)03:25
AakashPatelhaha03:25
GAN900I can't keep a connection for more than 10% of the time. . . .03:25
AakashPatelwhy?03:25
GAN900Woo, Network Error.03:26
AakashPatelo.O03:26
wjtGAN900: please file a bug report, preferably with debug output03:26
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Macerwtf is haze?03:26
* wjt is about to go to bed, so can't help figure out what's going on right now03:26
AakashPatelnight wjt03:27
wjtMacer: the telepathy component which exposes libpurple's protocols03:27
Maceri'm going to have to put tomato on another ddwrt03:27
Macerer.. wrt03:27
Macerlibpurple?03:27
AakashPatelMacer, chat shiz03:27
Macerwhich is used for what?03:27
Maceri know what telepathy is03:27
GAN900wjt, whenever I change connections automatically I can never get reconnected to AIM.03:27
GAN900How do I get debug output?03:27
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GAN900AIM, MSN, Yahoo, etc.03:28
wjtMacer: it's used for getting AIM and MSN and Yahoo! and Gadu-Gadu and … support in the built-in chat apps03:28
wjtGAN900: http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/Debugging03:28
AakashPateldoes the built in app have facebook for a chat option?03:28
AakashPateloh hm maybe ill see after i finish intsalling this SDK03:28
wjtno, but you can (/will be able to, real soon now) use a libpurple plugin to get facebook im via haze03:28
AakashPatelthats awesome03:29
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Arkenoiis there wifi signal mere widget?03:29
Arkenois/mere/meter/03:29
infobotArkenoi meant: is there wifi signal meter widget?03:29
AakashPatelnice bot lol03:30
AakashPatels/bot/lot03:30
AakashPatelOKAY03:30
AakashPateldont work for me03:30
AakashPatelhaha03:30
Macerit took 5 friggin episodes for them to get power to teh ship in sgu03:30
Macerhaha03:30
fernand0you missed the last / :P03:30
AakashPateloh woops03:30
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AakashPatels/bot/lot/03:30
AakashPateleh i  guess i have to say somethign03:31
AakashPatels/somethign/something03:31
AakashPateldammit03:31
fernand0I think it only works on the last sentence03:31
AakashPateli did it again03:31
* Arkenoi does not like SG, too predictable, too many hints in frame etc etc03:31
AakashPatelhaha03:31
fernand0s/think/believe/03:31
infobotfernand0 meant: I believe it only works on the last sentence03:31
AakashPatel...03:31
* AakashPatel is hated by infobot03:31
bobbyddid anyone implement libsipe in Haze?03:31
AakashPateltestr03:32
AakashPatels/testr/test/03:32
infobotAakashPatel meant: test03:32
AakashPatelYay!03:32
bobbydbetty swollocks03:32
bobbyds/betty/sweaty03:33
AakashPatelforgot your last /03:33
bobbyds/betty/sweaty/03:33
infobotbobbyd meant: s/sweaty/sweaty03:33
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GAN900Idiot neighbors stepping all over my WiFi03:34
AakashPatelGAN900, MAC address filter ftw03:35
AakashPatelor do you mean its like raping your signal? lol03:35
bobbydGAN900: if you're getting interference, switch channels03:36
AakashPatelyeah03:36
SpeedEvilMAC address filter does nothing03:36
AakashPatelor make it INTELLIGENT :003:36
GAN900AakashPatel, nah, channelwise.03:36
GAN900Yeah03:36
SpeedEvilTKIP also does not as much as you'd like.03:36
AakashPatelhm03:37
GAN900They've all installed new router and all set them on channels I was already on.03:37
* AakashPatel uses WPA2-AES03:37
AakashPatelall my AP's auto negotiate a free channel :D03:37
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Macerwow03:41
AakashPatelowo03:41
bobbydGAN900: connet to their routers and change their channels03:42
AakashPatelhaha03:43
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bobbydI'm not joking03:48
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bobbydmost people leave the passwords as default03:48
bobbydand if not, you can crack their WEP03:48
rashed2020-s pymaemo included by default in maemo 5?03:48
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Arkenoiis there airsnort/aircrack for n900?03:52
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* GAN900 can't believe his whole family has iPhone's now.03:56
philosopherso finally is does the n900 have 16 m or 65536 color03:57
microlithyou're really surprised?03:57
philosopher?03:57
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AakashPatelhow come these images colors are inverted in the browser scratchbox03:57
pupnik_Best thread on using Omap3's powervr SGX scaler to upscale emulator and game screens to N900 display at 60hz03:58
pupnik_http://www.gp32x.com/board/index.php?/topic/49293-sgx-opengl-es-2-0-application-development-recommendations/03:58
philosopherany one ?03:59
lcukphilosopher, depends on video mode03:59
lcuk"both" is the correct answer04:00
philosopherlcuk care to explain ?04:00
lcuknot really im tired and going to bed lol04:00
lcukshort:   there are different modes the card can support, i for instance have and use YUV 24bit color mode, what the rest of the OS uses I dunno04:01
lcukpupnik_, what res is sdl run in ?04:01
pupnik_800x48004:01
philosopherlcuk: but the screen support 16M color in hardware ?04:01
lcuk8bit? palette? true color? 16bit? 24 bit?04:01
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pupnik_i think it is a 16 bit screen04:02
pupnik_not sure where i read that04:02
philosopheryea cuz source seems to disagree on it04:02
philosophergsmarena say 16M but nokia doesnt mention that04:02
lcukphilosopher, i use truecolor 24bit graphics, they dont appear to be a problem for me, but what the rest of the os uses and whether the pathway is 24bit is unknown by me04:02
lcukbut that wasnt your question04:02
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Robot101maemo 5 generally uses 16-bit RGB04:03
pupnik_the question was whether it had 16m color, and if the screen doesn't support that, the video mode of x doesn't matter lcuk04:03
philosopherlcuk ok .... but i am bot sur eto understand04:03
Robot101it can do 32-bit but its much slower04:03
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pupnik_lcuk, you misunderstood a simple question04:03
philosopherpupnik_: exactly04:03
lcukRobot101, it was at 32bit originally afaik wasnt it04:04
Robot101the screen isn't a limiting factor particularly04:04
Arkenoiis n900 screen multitouch capable if there will be a driver that supports it someday?04:04
pupnik_no multitouch04:04
philosopherRobot101: any source on your info04:04
Robot101philosopher: I employ loads of people who work on the UI framework? :)04:05
* lcuk is one but hasnt come across that layer just yet04:05
Robot101I'm pretty sure the window manager and gtk are all set to 16-bit RGB04:05
Robot101they did look at 32-bit ARGB to allow transparency in certain gtk things04:05
Robot101there's a sapwood (the gtk theme engine) branch for it lying around somewhere, but most gtk wigdets don't /quite/ work with transparent visuals04:06
pupnik_http://forums.internettablettalk.com/showthread.php?p=351213   philosopher here's a thread on the subject04:06
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philosopherRobot101: but in video mode the screen is 16M?04:10
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philosopherRobot101: ?04:14
Robot101not entirely certain - it uses YUV packed colour when doing video, which actually means its still 16 bits per pixel, because it gives more bits to the Y and samples V and U every other pixel...04:15
Robot101but if you unpacked it to RGB, each pixel would be 24 bits04:15
Robot101(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling)04:16
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Arkenoilooks like changing sip registration type to tcp improves wifi standby time significantly04:17
Robot101not a very helpful answer, but basically means it has different detail levels for brightness versus colour04:17
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Robot101Arkenoi: really? interesting...04:18
Arkenoii am not quite sure but appears to behave like that04:18
Arkenoiyesterday i tried it with udp and after 12 hours my battery was almost drained04:19
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Robot101philosopher: sorry if that doesn't answer your question, I don't know what the screen hardware itself can do, just the silicon and the software04:21
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Robot101its never appeared to be an issue for me though, tbh :)04:21
Robot101'night04:22
* Robot101 disappears04:22
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AakashPatelArkenoi, how long do you get on tcp?04:24
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pupnik_Arkenoi: perhaps this could be a topic on talk.maemo.org < Arkenoi> looks like changing sip registration type to tcp improves wifi standby time significantly04:29
pupnik_lol on wired.com, a poster claims:  "Given that an LCD display is made of red, green and blue elements, isn’t it obvious it can’t display millions of colours?  After all, even at 8bits that 256 levels of each - in reality that’s 256+256+256 and not 256*256*256"  http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2007/05/apple_lcd_lawsu/04:30
Arkenoiaakash: about 12 hours already and battery is just about 30% drained04:30
pupnik_oh dear that font is ugly04:31
Arkenoihttps://garage.maemo.org/projects/abiword/ <- will this work on n900?04:31
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pupnik_It worked on N81004:39
pupnik_almost04:39
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GAN900Arkenoi, recompile may be recommended.04:44
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b-man17http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=395055#post395055 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!05:46
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pupnik_apparently there is a way to get a deswizzled texture on powervr MBX.  Not sure if it works on SGX.06:15
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clmntchhello all06:21
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pupnik_hi06:26
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pupnik_so, with N900, once *again* nokia's implementation pushes beyond what TI designed-for06:32
pupnik_But given those limitations good job.06:33
AakashPatelJust ordered my N900 from amazon :006:33
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pupnik_Congrats!06:33
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AakashPatelWonder how long it'll be before it ships lol06:34
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izzoxHi all06:35
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b-man17http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=395102#post395102  apparently people arn´t taking this seriously >:(06:35
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odin_my N900 finally arrived in UK07:50
pupnik_congrats!07:53
pupnik_how do you like it odin_ ?07:53
Arkenoiis easydebian usable on n900 atm?07:54
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odin_its ok so far....  which parts of the software kernel/user-space remain propriety (usable, but as binary blob) and which parts can be recompiled/fixed ?07:57
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odin_I have linux kernel programming experience (as far back as 1995 :) this is finally the device I've been waiting for07:57
odin_but most of the work needed is in user-space07:57
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sulxbleh..still need to wait 7 days =(07:59
Flandryha that's like my software engineer uncle "It's a hardware problem"07:59
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odin_one annoying input problem is lack of <TAB> key ... also the "Sym" key isn't as good as the E61i version08:02
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odin_I would like to map "Left-Shift + Fn" to be <TAB>08:02
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GAN900odin_, there's a couple threads on -developers08:03
odin_the "Sym" function should have the top line of most-recently used and a search function (allowing Unicode input etc...)08:04
GAN900Talk to fanoush or Stskeeps if you want advice on kernel hacking.08:04
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odin_when you say -developers is that a mailing list, sorry I have not read the entire maemo.org website yet :)08:06
GAN900odin_, yeah, maemo-developers mailing list.08:06
odin_does the maemo.org website get looked at by Nokia for their own update ?  trying to understand if the community is completely seperate from the official product08:06
GAN900Also consider -community.08:06
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GAN900odin_, well, Nokia is a member of the community.08:07
GAN900Lots of Nokians floating around.08:07
GAN900(between proper Nokians and contractors there are about two dozen in this channel at any given time)08:08
GAN900Public bugzilla at bugs.maemo.org08:08
GAN900Most code at maemo.gitoreous.org08:08
odin_also what is the virdict on Java support, is that "on the way" ?08:09
Flandryonly if someone hacks it in08:09
odin_I have seen the jamimo/classpath idea but I don't hold out much hope in it08:10
odin_its just too complex to get right soon, needs commercial backing to provide objectives and purpose08:10
GAN900It'd have to be a community effort.08:11
odin_well maybe I speak bad of it too soon, but I know that gcj/classpath just doesn't work on desktop and its for the most popular workstation CPU in the world08:12
RST38hThe verdict on Java support is that nobody needs it. If somebody needed it, he would bring Jalimo to usability.08:20
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Arkenoij2me would be nice08:22
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RST38hmy thoughts exactly, but apparently nobody needs even j2me, badly enough to implement it08:22
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odin_lol its cheaper to use a diff phone with J2ME enabled, like E6x/7x08:31
tigertodin_: out of curiosity, where would you need tab?08:31
tigertexcept for xchat nick completion :)08:31
odin_tigert, browsing form boxes08:31
tigertok08:32
GAN900xterm08:32
tigertxterm has tab08:32
tigertas softkey08:32
GAN900Bleh08:32
tigertin the toolbar08:32
tigertand Ctrl-I works too in terminal08:33
GAN900It's way out of the way08:33
tigertdude08:33
GAN900True08:33
odin_LeftShift+Fn =<TAB> (would work well for me)08:33
tigerteverything is in the way wiht N900, in fingers reach08:33
L0cutusre08:33
tigertits not like "bah, grab mouse.."08:33
GAN900tigert, I have to think about moving my thumb up there.08:33
GAN900Feels like it. :P08:33
tigertI thought the same way before08:34
GAN900Anyway, that still doesn't fix XChat08:34
* RST38h remembers wanting to ask tigert if he is planning an original icon theme for N90008:34
tigertnow after using the device for bunch of months and N810 before that08:34
GAN900Which is probably about 30% of my total usage.08:34
RST38htigert: Any hope?08:34
tigertI think thumb is handy08:34
tigertRST38h: hmm08:34
odin_maybe "Down Arrow" and "Up Arrow" should also tab when in browser, when you are in input text mode08:34
tigertRST38h: one could do a theme from tango icons I guess08:34
GAN900I want Bora Plankto ported to Fremantle.08:34
GAN900+n08:35
tigertodin_: that I agree with08:35
RST38htigert: yea, that is one possibility08:35
tigertRST38h: would look nice too08:35
RST38halthough they may be too complex for the tiny screen08:35
* RST38h checks08:35
tigertthe problem is the silly naming of icons in maemo08:35
tigertbut08:35
tigerttheres the icon-naming-utils in tango08:35
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tigertthat lets you do symlinks08:35
tigertto maintain two namespaces08:35
tigertthats what gnome-icon-theme <--> tango was doing before the new naming was adopted08:36
RST38htigert: can I simply rename all the icons by hand?08:36
RST38hOr does it have some disadvantages?08:37
tigertI guess08:37
tigertbut08:37
tigertI guess icon-naming utils could be useful,08:37
RST38h(the icons look ok btw, should look normal even on n900 display)08:37
tigertsince then any fdo compatible icon theme using the icon naming standard would at those parts work08:37
RST38haha08:37
tigertRST38h: also I need to check if svg icons work on the device08:37
RST38hLooks like there is a .png set for tango08:38
tigerthttp://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/view/svn/general/icon-naming-utils.html08:38
tigertfirst hit from google08:38
tigertI dunno if this is uptodate08:38
tigertbut this thingy might be handy08:38
tigertthere is png too08:38
tigertbut it would be fun to see if svg works, as maemo icon sizes are a bit different08:39
odin_hmm... JDK7 is downloadable in source code :) ... hmm....08:40
* RST38h googles for documents on maemo5 theme creation08:40
odin_wonder if there is a platform independant Java interpreter runtime in there08:40
tigertRST38h: theme or icon theme?08:40
RST38hicon theme, really08:41
RST38hodin: there is, of course08:41
RST38hKVM08:41
RST38hPart of phoneme08:41
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tigertRST38h: it uses mostly the freedesktop.org icon theme stuff, so gnome icon theme mechanism08:42
tigertbut08:42
* RST38h has no idea of the gnome icon theme mechanism either08:42
RST38hShould probably be some tar.gz with the right dir structure inside?08:43
* tigert goes for breakfast, I can poke you with some urls a bit later08:43
tigertyeah08:43
RST38hif possible, yes, thanks in advance =)08:43
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tigertthe widget theme template stuff is fun too if you are artistic minded or adventurous :)08:43
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* RST38h isn't artistic unfortunately, but he can package a bunch of files, no problem there =)08:44
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tigertyea08:44
RST38hwazd may be interested in the templates though08:44
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tigertyea08:44
RST38has long as Nokia *finally* provides him with an n900 in some way (DDP or otherwise)08:44
tigerti wish more people found them and did themes08:44
tigertmayvbe i should blog about them08:44
RST38hposting to tmo Design subforum may help too08:45
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hrwmorning08:45
RST38hehlo hrw08:45
hrwyeah, themes08:45
tigertyeah08:45
hrwone of things which I have on n900 todolist is 'get rid of those ugly S60 Touch icons'08:46
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RST38h<work>08:49
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odin_the touchscreen gestures, is that all handleds by the input framework ?08:57
odin_in the browser if you slide the pointer in from the left side, you get a mouse pointer... is there anything assigned to sliding into view from the right side ?  could this be used to activate scroll bars reliably ?08:58
hrwbye09:00
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odin_hmm sliding in from right and sliding out top, seems to go back in history... I'd prefer to customize it to make starting on left side, moving up then off sliding out the left side to be the "Back" function09:02
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odin_this frees up the right side for a reliable scrollbar function09:03
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tigertleft size has your fancy pointer-hover gesture09:33
tigertits pretty handy on complex-interaction websites09:33
tigertdrag-and-hold finger from left- > you see cursor09:33
tigerthit space to do a mouse click09:33
tigertworks nicely for dropdown menus etc09:33
tigertsince you can hover09:34
odin_yes I like that09:34
tigertits pretty crazy and not obvious to see09:34
tigertthe cursor icon thingy is easier to understand of course09:34
tigertbut you can just drag-and-keep-mousing without pressing the icon09:34
odin_there appears to be a right side slide-in and out through top (does Browser Back) ?09:34
tigertso its nice for quickly doing stuff when you know it09:34
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odin_opps... right side slide-in and down through bottom == Browser Back ?09:35
tigertnot sure if there are more gestures than left and right slide09:35
tigertuse backspace to just go "back" one step09:35
odin_I want this on "start in screen, go up, then slide out left" for "Browser Back"09:35
odin_this is so I can make the right side slide-in be scroll back use09:36
tigertstart in screen  gesture is for panning09:36
tigertbelieve me, the guy who worked on the user interface had almost his brain melt09:36
tigertits pretty complex case09:36
tigertwhen you have kinetic panning as well09:36
tigertthat rules out most of gestures starting from the screen center09:37
tigertbecause you use that to move around09:37
tigertjust yse b09:37
tigerterm09:37
tigertjust use backspace to go back09:37
odin_yes backspace works too09:37
odin_I am aware of that one09:37
tigertyou know ctrl-backspace?09:37
tigertvery handy for fullscreen browser + term09:38
odin_the issue is scroll bar usage on normal widgets09:38
KhertanHi !09:38
odin_slide-in from right and then up or down, I want to operate any scrollbar of any widget09:38
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odin_but at the moment... "slide in (from right to left), then go down (through bottom)" operates "Browser Back"09:40
odin_I want this to "scroll up" but not just browser, also dialog widgets in normal apps09:41
odin_more obvious to me would for browser back is "start in-screen go up, then left (sliding out of screen)"09:41
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odin_a ¬ type of shape09:42
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odin_or even the reverse, "start off-screen, slide in (left to right), then go down (finish in-screen)", like you are pulling the previous page back09:44
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tigertwell09:51
tigertjust drag the list09:52
tigertlike on flickr, theres this "add to group"09:52
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tigertwhich has a scrollable list inside a dropdown menu09:53
tigertyou can just pan the list itself09:53
tigertforget your learned habits and explore how maemo browser works09:54
tigertI think it is pretty OK as a whole09:54
tigertif you would start changing stuff you'd break something else09:54
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odin_well its early days for me, does the i-text virtual bluetooth keyboard work well with it ?09:57
odin_the laser keyboard thing09:57
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odin_my first programming job will be to ensure vnc/putty/rdesktop are all upto the job09:59
tigertshould if that itself works well09:59
tigertwhy do you need putty?10:00
tigertinstall openssh :)10:00
Klowner(windows user)10:00
tigertand theres a terminal10:00
odin_yeah Ive done that10:00
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tigertvnc exists also in the repository10:00
tigertthough I havent used it10:00
odin_yes installed that too, but need to check out that its upto the job10:00
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odin_putty is like a GUI version of ssh client10:01
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odin_openssh client is like a command line ssh client10:01
odin_so unless someone did a good job of the bit in the middle, I'll stick with concept of using putty over openssh-client10:01
tigertwell10:01
tigertits the commandline10:02
tigertwasnt there some ssh-gui thingy for maemo sometime?10:02
odin_then is the terminal window/emulator too-notch ?10:02
tigertits using vte terminal widget10:02
odin_*top-notch10:02
tigertsame as in Gnome linux desktop10:02
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tigerthad no problems with that10:02
tigertinstall ttf-droid package10:02
tigertreboot10:02
tigertand use Droid Sans Mono font for it10:03
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tigertand its better10:03
odin_I have that installed too10:03
tigertthe Courier font we use by default sucks10:03
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tigertdroid sans mono is tech awesome10:03
tigerts/tech//10:03
infobottigert meant: droid sans mono is  awesome10:03
odin_I see "X Terminal" ?10:03
tigertyeah, that10:04
tigertthen install openssh-client10:04
tigertand "ssh foo.com"10:04
tigertworks, but doesnt give you the fancy gui of putty10:04
odin_only 12pts and 16pts big jump around the sizes you want10:04
tigertuse zoom, luke10:04
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vesa<3 n900 + sshfs <310:05
tigertvesa: hmm10:05
tigertvesa: sshfs, how? :)10:05
vesawho needs opengl emulation/simulation/whatever =)10:06
tigertodin_: note that you can also install openssh-server10:06
vesatigert: it's in extras devel10:06
tigertand ssh into your device10:06
odin_zoom in X Terminal ?  (cant see option, rotation gestures dont work, no obvious button for zoom)10:06
tigertvesa: !10:06
odin_yes I have openssh-server installed10:06
tigertodin_: zoom keys10:06
tigertin top of device10:06
tigertthe rocker thingy10:06
vesanot visible in application manager but with apt-get10:06
tigertrotation in terminal do not make much sense10:06
tigertits for keyboard use anyway10:06
tigertvesa: oh10:06
odin_quit with this makes much sense nonsense10:07
tigertvesa: I wish there was dropbox support too10:07
vesawhy its hidden i have no idea. but mounting a server-directory makes on-device testing sooooooo much faster =)10:07
tigertvesa: application manager only shows "User" packages10:07
tigertlike, no libs or other system tools10:07
vesaah, ok10:07
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odin_rotation gestures in X Terminal make a lot of sense to me10:09
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odin_trying to flick zoom in and out all the time with keyboard open is useless10:09
tigertwell,10:10
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tigerthttp://osso-xterm.garage.maemo.org/10:10
tigertget the source and hack away :)10:11
odin_sure will10:11
tigertthose guys should be happy to welcome you into the project10:11
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odin_what is "osso" about ?  Open Source ???10:12
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tigertwell10:13
tigerta relic10:13
Stskeepsodin_: http://wiki.maemo.org/Codenames10:13
tigertour department was called "OSSO" before10:14
tigertlike it says in that wikipage10:14
odin_the N900 I have here, that is Fremantle ?  1.2009.42-11.203.210:16
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tigertyeah10:16
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tigertN900 has fremantle software10:16
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odin_will N900 have Harmattan ?  or will that be a new product ?10:16
Stskeepsodin_: noone really knows. harmattan targets capactive screens10:17
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odin_ok a new device then, like N90110:17
tigertwe cannot speculate future products in public, sorry10:17
abtigert, neither in private :)10:17
tigertyeah :)10:18
tigertgood point, no use privmsging me :)10:18
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* ab yesterday read through v4lcamsrc source code (it is open) to find out CAMSRC_PUBLISH_RAW ;)10:18
odin_lol... I'm not so much interested in PR... I'm not interested in devices I can buy today10:19
odin_lol... I'm not so much interested in PR... I'm _MORE_ interested in devices I can buy today10:19
tigertyeah10:19
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Stskeepsodin_: then that's N90010:19
Stskeeps:P10:19
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odin_Stskeeps, yes it arrived yesterday, I am stamping on it now... the shock test10:19
Stskeepsodin_: it might actually be able to handle that..10:20
Stskeeps:P10:20
odin_no wait....10:20
odin_it didn't10:20
* odin_ cries10:20
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odin_should have left that test until last10:20
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JohnnyLollipopis there any step-by-step tutorial to build maemo on ubuntu 9.04?10:20
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odin_ubuntu host ?10:21
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JohnnyLollipopyes10:21
tigertodin_: N900 can take quite a bit of punishment, but leave testing to the professionals ;)10:21
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StskeepsJohnnyLollipop: you want to build Maemo on top of Ubuntu, or develop apps for Maemo using ubuntu?10:21
odin_I would expect the normal instruction work on any recent linux distro10:21
JohnnyLollipopbuild Maemo on top of Ubuntu10:22
JohnnyLollipopnot just develop apps10:22
odin_the host disto should not matter so much10:22
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StskeepsJohnnyLollipop: so you want put the stack on top of Ubuntu? :P10:22
JohnnyLollipopi found at least hildon-desktop is not synced with Maemo project one's10:22
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StskeepsJohnnyLollipop: you'll want to look into10:22
Stskeeps~mer10:22
infobotrumour has it, mer is http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer, or on #mer10:22
odin_I understand JohnnyLollipop's request is that he wishes to develop using a Ubunto workstation (the host enviromment) but target maemo10:22
Stskeepsand save yourself a lot of insanity10:22
Stskeepsodin_: nah.. it's worse10:23
Stskeeps:P10:23
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StskeepsJohnnyLollipop: the big issue about maemo stack on top of ubuntu is the need to use maemo gtk10:23
JohnnyLollipopso the maemo gtk is not opened?10:23
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tigertno, it is open10:24
Stskeepsit is10:24
tigertbut10:24
tigertubuntu also has gtk10:24
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tigertthey conflict10:24
wazdmuhaha, maemo 5 apps top conquered by me :D10:24
odin_Xnest ?  $LD_LIBRARY_PATH ?10:24
JohnnyLollipopso amazing, this indeed is a big problem10:24
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tigertodin_: scratchbox10:24
tigertodin_: its a sandbox environment the SDK uses10:25
StskeepsJohnnyLollipop: are you involved with the ubuntu effort to bring hildon desktop in? :P10:25
JohnnyLollipopyes10:25
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JohnnyLollipopactually i wan to know how to build a maemo platform from scratch10:25
StskeepsJohnnyLollipop: did you even research first? :P10:25
odin_tigert, I have not installed SDK yet myself, I am on Fedora Core 3 and badly need to upgrade, its scheduled for sometime soon FC1210:25
odin_tigert, once that is done then I set to work10:25
tigertfc12 is out10:25
StskeepsJohnnyLollipop: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/UbuntuLiquid10:26
odin_tigert, been out a week and 3 days10:26
StskeepsJohnnyLollipop: ?10:26
tigertyeah10:26
tigertI know, installed it as vmware machine to try it out10:26
JohnnyLollipopI researched for weeks10:26
tigertodin_: ubuntu is a good env to use the sdk in10:26
tigertthere was some docs for to do it in fedora too10:26
odin_tigert, no the scheduler for sometime soon, is my workstation downtime!  I am too busy to just do it now10:26
JohnnyLollipopi just want to know those packages to make up a maemo platform10:26
tigertbut most of us use ubuntu in house to do stuff10:26
tigertso it might be easier, run it in vmware player or such to hack on the sdk if you want10:27
odin_tigert, I am a Red Hat fan and have been for the 14 years Ive been into linux (although red hat was not around then :)10:27
StskeepsJohnnyLollipop: OK, i recommend you to take a hard look at Mer. we've spent over a year basing Maemo on top of Ubuntu.10:27
tigertodin_: yeah, we all started with slackware, didnt we :)10:27
odin_yup10:27
JohnnyLollipopokay, thanks Stskeeps10:27
tigertodin_: remember the first redhat graphical installer with those weirdo icons? :)10:27
StskeepsJohnnyLollipop: and the main issue you will run into is Maemo GTK+ and fighting with the gtk package maintainers to get a variant10:27
JohnnyLollipopbut is mer the netbook version one?10:28
Stskeepsno, mer is a maemo.org project. ubuntu mobile was based on moblin110:28
tigertodin_: I think it was in RH 4 or 510:28
Stskeepser, ubuntu mid10:28
odin_tigert, nope as I was prolly still using text mode to install.. as GUI installed was kind of new and broken and weird10:29
tigertyea10:29
JaffaMorning, all10:29
StskeepsJohnnyLollipop: your primary mission is to find out how to get maemo gtk+ into ubuntu in some way. rest is fairly trivial :P10:30
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tigertodin_: I started my design career with those :)10:32
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odin_ah so those "weirdo icons" were your fault ?10:33
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tigertyeah ;)10:34
odin_what kind of ARM CPU is it ?  I do not know the history and progression of ARM CPUs.  I see "Cortex-A8" and "OMAP" and "ARM" and still don't understand, I believe "OMAP" to be a TI initiative for System-on-Chip solutions10:35
odin_and maybe "Cortex-A8" to be the ARM design that was license for fabrication to TI/Nokia10:36
mecetigert, odin_, yeah, slackware is where I started too.10:36
mecetigert, how is redhat these days? Haven't used it since the nineties.10:36
odin_so which assembler instruction manual do I download for the exact instruction set implemented ?10:36
tigertI guess people use fedora10:36
tigertits the community side of rh afaik10:37
tigertthey use it as base for red hat enterprise stuff as far as I remember10:37
tigertfedora 12 looked pretty slick10:37
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mecetigert, oh of course..now that you mention it, my secondary work computer has fedora :)10:37
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meceI use mint myself, because I'm lazy :) and debian on my server... and CentOS on work servers.. uh.10:38
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lbtmece: sounds familiar10:39
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mecelbt, it does get confusing. Luckily I don't do much configuring on the servers..10:43
* lbt just assumes that the debian way is the right way and 'fixes' CentOS10:44
lbt<grin>10:44
lbtalias apt='rpm' and all is well10:44
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mecelbt, LOL10:47
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meceNah, I'd still go for Behexen. The new Gorgoroth is better, but feels much 'warmer'. Wormwood on the other hand. Eeeevil!10:50
meceWTF?10:50
odin_ARM Cortex-A8 (r3p1) ???   Processor       : ARMv7 Processor rev 3 (v7l), CPU revision    : 3, CPU variant     : 0x1  ?10:50
* mece looks embarassed10:50
mecesorry about that.10:50
mecemy windows seem to jump focus automagically10:51
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wazd~ping11:06
infobot~pong11:06
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VReMaybe someone is interested to upvote my process "bug" report (for Modest): "Release bug fixes now or soon, not later" :) (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6358). I haven't noticed much discussion on the topic (maybe I missed it). Anyways I think it would be good thing to discuss in general open source (nokia) application release period length.11:09
povbotBug 6358: Release bug fixes now or soon, not later11:09
StskeepsVRe: modest is developed openly11:10
Stskeepsafaik11:10
odin_does the maemo distrubtion have an auto-builder/cruisecontrol QA in place ?11:10
vesaany ideas how many texture units the n900 chip has?11:10
VReStskeeps: yeah, it is but releases follow nokia11:11
StskeepsVRe: you are free to build the package yourself and install it on your device11:12
odin_can't there be multiple tracks  ?11:12
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odin_nightly build from HEAD, integration builds from released fixes, releases builds (milestone/alpha/beta/final)11:13
Stskeepsodin_: each of those would require gpl compliance etc..11:14
VReStskeeps: Of course, or I could pack it and release reModest which will have the fixes which are kept back.. but just saying that sound so stupid11:14
odin_Stskeeps, what do you see as being the GPL compliance issue ?11:14
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odin_Stskeeps, if the entire SCM is open for download, thats what other projects do11:15
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Stskeepsodin_: entire SCM of maemo isn't open :)11:15
odin_Stskeeps, well sure, but those parts are not GPL ?11:16
Stskeepscorrect, but for those that are, if you release a binary image, you have to have all sources ready, 100% legal and all that stuff..11:16
Stskeepsrelease very often is not always easy11:17
Stskeepsinternally in a company, of course11:17
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Stskeepsexternally it's a pandoras box11:17
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odin_Stskeeps, not if the SCM is open, thats all other major corps do11:17
odin_Stskeeps, since there is no such thing as a release11:17
Stskeepsodin_: yes, but not all stuff is developed openly..11:18
Stskeepssome is just tar.gz releases11:18
odin_Stskeeps, there is only what is in SCM, you are not required to release a binary11:18
* Stskeeps ponders idly why he's taking this discussion11:18
odin_Stskeeps, anything that is binary and non-GPL put to one side a minute11:18
Stskeepsthere's a goal of release often in maemo, they'll get there eventually11:19
Stskeepsright now it is not that trivial11:19
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odin_I suppose what I am saying is, if the parts which are binary and non-open-source as handled seperately, it is this part that Nokia should concentrate on speeding up release cycles on11:21
odin_the rest of the stuff can be dealt with externally direct from SCM and the community11:22
Stskeepsodin_: there's independent package releases, in scm.11:22
Stskeepsbut the moment you use those you diverge from SSU11:22
rmrfchikI use portrait orientation on n810 for reading. I heard, n900 works only on landscape (except phone mode). Can I run reader in portrait?11:22
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philn-tphi11:23
KhertanDepends on which "reader" are you talking about11:23
Stskeepsrmrfchik: it's up to each application to implement portrait mode.11:23
Stskeepsrmrfchik: so 3rd party apps can have it easily11:23
Khertanrmrfchik: for example pygtkeditor implement rotation support11:23
Stskeepsit is supported in the syst11:23
philn-tpi forgot my garage account infos... is there some way to request a new password?11:24
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Khertanhum ... i think i make too many call to the regex in pygtkeditor : 18544   76.648    0.004   76.648    0.004 :0(search)11:26
Khertan18544 call :)11:26
tarelerulzis the devices Maemo runs on much different then what android runs ?11:27
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Khertantarelerulz: android isn't a linux :)11:27
zaheermphiln-tp, there'so forgot password option?11:27
zaheermandroid uses the linux kernel11:28
tarelerulzKhertan: Why is not Linux ?11:28
zaheermand very different userspace11:28
philn-tpzaheerm: haven't found it yet.. confused, i am11:28
SaBerKhertan: also that has nothing to do with the HW11:28
zaheermunlike any linux distro11:28
SaBerzaheerm: yeah, it's only the kernel11:28
Khertanhttp://tree.celinuxforum.org/CelfPubWiki/ELCEurope2009Presentations?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=Mythbusters_Android.pdf11:29
tarelerulzLinux is just kernel .  What makes say Ubuntu Linux .11:29
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zaheermtarelerulz, ok let's put it this way, the pn;y thing similar between android and every pther linux distro is the kernel11:30
glass_tarelerulz: take a look at android development. you're pretty much as end user application developer meant to totally ignore that it's linux and just write programs for the java-like vm on it11:30
Khertantarelerulz: yep but too modified kernel to call it "linux"11:30
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zaheermeverything else is different11:30
zaheerms/pn;y/only/11:30
SaBerWasn't the original question about the HW? :)11:30
KhertanSaBer: i don't think11:30
KhertanSaBer: it was :)*11:31
SaBer< tarelerulz> is the devices Maemo runs on much different then what android runs ?11:31
tarelerulzWell, Glass that is good point .11:31
zaheerm<tarelerulz> is the devices Maemo runs on much different then what android runs ?11:31
Khertandevice are quite the same11:31
Khertanin term of specs11:31
zaheermtarelerulz, hardware wise, the closest android device in terms of spec to n900 is the droid11:31
tarelerulzWhat kind of movies does it play ?11:32
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zaheermtarelerulz, i think that's where android fails :)11:32
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zaheermn900 multimedia wise is lightyears ahead of any android device11:33
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tarelerulzandroid only play .mp4  container and mp4 video ,h264 and ac3 audio and mp3 . Which is ok ,but I would not mind something that does more11:33
zaheermyes but it plays them badly11:34
tarelerulzandroid or maemo ?11:34
zaheermandroid11:34
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zaheermtry playing a normal SD h264 video on android11:34
tarelerulzany of you put ogg on Meamo ?11:34
zaheermyes11:34
zaheermogg-support is in Extras11:35
tarelerulzSo it will basic play anything gstream plays ? mp4 , ogg , mkv11:35
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zaheermtarelerulz, to an extent11:36
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tigertthere is a limit on bandwidth the device can crunch11:36
zaheermit's not high powered enough to play h264 or mpeg4 in HD for example11:36
tarelerulzHD goes with out saying11:36
tigertit plays a LOT more than N810 though11:36
zaheermyes so most content will play11:37
tigertlike most youtube mp4's play ok11:37
zaheermmpeg2 is nto dsp optimised so limited res with mpeg211:37
tigertjust not the super-highres HD ones11:37
ali1234because flash plugin currently uses software decoding11:37
tigertyoutube plays fine in the browser though11:37
zaheermali1234, even if it was dsp optimised it wouldn't handle hd youtube clips11:37
tigertits nice fullscreen when commuting :)11:37
odin_ARM Cortex-A8 (r3p1) ???   Processor       : ARMv7 Processor rev 3 (v7l), CPU revision    : 3, CPU variant     : 0x1  ?   is it single core ?  is FPU a co-processor ?  is SIMD/DSP a co-processor ?11:37
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tarelerulzI would have to  lower the res and bitrates of stuff ,but if that is met then it should not matter the format .11:38
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tigerttarelerulz: I used iriverter for example11:38
zaheermtarelerulz, if you're going to transcode to it, i believe transmageddon has an n900 profile11:38
tigertto transcode to lower size11:38
RST38hback11:39
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ali1234well TI disagree with you: "High performance OMAP3430 applications processor that supports up to 720p HD video encode/decode "11:39
tarelerulzWell, it play .mkv ? if so does it support multi-audio and subtitles tracks.  I understand the res and bitrate stuff .11:39
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tigertali1234: the high res limits your bus bandwidth I guess11:40
tigerttarelerulz: apt-get install mplayer to do all the geek shit11:40
johnxtarelerulz, mplayer supports mkv, but could be a little more optimized I think11:40
ali1234youtube "HD" isn't even real HD (yet)11:40
johnxof course :)11:41
johnxjust like 90% of the things labeled HD11:41
ali1234although 720p is supposed to be coming, i bet it's hilariously low bitrate when it arrives11:41
Stskeepsi still wonder how people can claim they're getting HD output from their iphones on composite..11:41
tigertbtw11:41
zaheermtarelerulz, yes mkv is supported with installation of an extra package11:41
johnxI wonder how much bandwidth youtube eats per day11:41
tigertI recommend that Download Youtube MP4 bookmarklet11:41
tigertworks great on N900 too11:41
tarelerulzI understand with supporting more formats is harder . Most device use hardware decoding so that is why they only support mpeg 411:41
zaheermor install zoutube :)11:42
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ali1234i like the canola youtube plugin11:42
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johnxluckily, there's definitely ways for 3rd party stuff to take advantage of native hardware accel though11:42
johnxit's a much better situation than android or WebOS, AFAICT11:43
zaheermyes any app that uses gstreamer automatically has mpeg4, h263, h264 hw optimised11:43
tarelerulzWhat kind of price rang we looking at ? I am in USA11:43
zaheermtheora there is also a dsp optimisation for11:43
johnxzaheerm, so there's a possibility of a mkv-support package, just like the ogg-support package? (if someone does the work I mean)11:44
zaheermjohnx, yes i created the package that did the mkv thing, but yah i should make a package that adds it nicely like ogg-support11:45
johnxtarelerulz, the N900? $450 from dell.com right now it seems11:45
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johnxI didn't even know there was a way to play it in the built-in media player11:45
johnxawesome11:45
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tarelerulzwow 450 is pretty high and for that much it should do all that11:46
johnx(think I missed the first part of the conversation. sorry, if I'm asking questions that were already answered.)11:46
zaheermhttp://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Using_Multimedia_Components/Installing_codecs_for_files_that_don%27t_play_in_Media_Player11:46
johnx$450 unlocked is high?11:46
odin_is the N900 a single core device ?  but support NPTL in user space ?11:46
Stskeepstarelerulz: we had this discussion, a iphone 3gs with 32gb unlocked is 1000 usd11:46
Stskeepsit's fairly cheap considering11:47
zaheermso yah i should create an mkv-support package that deps on the necessary packages and runs the tracker-register-mimetype stuff11:47
zaheermtarelerulz, not many phones are much cheaper than 450$ unlocked...11:47
tarelerulzWhy is all the price for n900 all unlock what does it not come on any network in the USA11:48
zaheermtarelerulz, especially nto ones with the featureset the n900 has11:48
ali1234especially considering the n900 has a camera as good as most compact digitals, and enough storage to replace a DV camcorder11:48
johnxother unlocked omap3430 devices tend to run much higher ...11:48
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johnxtarelerulz, it works with t-mo on 3G and at&t on edge, but yeah, it's not subsidized on any carrier. High upfront cost, but cheaper in the long run11:49
odin_N900 not in the UK yet, because its just too new... Vodafone only released the E72 a week ago (and that was launched in June 2009)11:50
odin_I should have an E72 coming later today (for good measure, since I have been using E61i for just over 2 years now)11:50
odin_but bye bye S60... I expect the E72 will be by last S60 phone :)11:50
tarelerulzSo far N900 looks great . a real Linux on a phone is great.  The gui don't look as slick and android or web os ,but that is small thing11:50
odin_E72 is my backup plan for when I break my N900 ha ha11:51
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johnxthe UI is a matter of taste, but it feels ... better thought out (maybe?) than Android11:52
johnxhaven't had a chance to handle a Pre for more than 30 seconds yet11:52
johnxsome of my favorite UI elements are the things that aren't even parts of the GUI, such as opening the lens cover to launch the camera app11:53
tarelerulzWhy I speak on the gui is on a phone you want something easy and fast to use .  Not something you have to figure out and takes more then 2 seconds to do something new.  it part of functionally not matter of taste for me.  take the iphone its gui works as well as it does make it easy and fast to use .11:53
tigerta good ui doesnt get in the way11:54
tigert</obvious blah> :)11:54
zaheermi like the fremantle ui11:54
* tigert likes it too11:54
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zaheermi prefer it to iphone ui and android ui11:54
tarelerulztigert, That is my point .11:55
SpeedEvilA good GUI lets you do stuff fast when you've had the phone for a week11:55
johnxtarelerulz, yeah, I guess I was saying that "looks slick" is a matter of opinion. In terms doing things quickly, in my experience it beats android and loses to iphone in some things11:55
SpeedEvilHow fast it is when you've had it for a minute is almost irrelevant11:55
tarelerulzTo , me that is one thing android had over looked when it first come out .  It seem to gotten the point by now11:56
tigertwhich? speed?11:56
tarelerulzWork flow11:56
tarelerulznot needing to figure out stuff11:57
johnxtask switching still bugs me on android11:57
suihkulokkitigert: in general it is very likeable.. but it still suffers from too deep menus11:57
Stskeepstarelerulz: there's always a learning curve unless it's windows XP.11:57
Stskeepsand you grew up on that11:57
Stskeepsa quick instruction is acceptable11:57
tarelerulzThat is good point .  To me gui is very important . I don't mean looks ,but how easy something is to control11:57
johnx(or maybe I didn't figure out android in the limited time I had with it)11:58
tigertStskeeps: windows has the worst learning curve ever, its just so common11:58
suihkulokkimy pet example: try to setup a a proxy (and compare it to howto setup a proxy on iphone)11:58
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tigertsuihkulokki: I never had to do that though11:58
johnxactually, a lot of "modern" OSes still lose in my mind compared to PalmOS 3 and 4 in terms of "number of clicks to do some task"11:59
tigertsuihkulokki: the proxy settings are indeed pretty deep hidden11:59
tigertsuihkulokki: but I never had to use them, except for that internal wlan we had to use ages ago in N800 days11:59
RST38hjohnx: That is UI, not the OS12:00
RST38hPalmOS can barely be called an OS =)12:00
johnxtrue enough12:01
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johnxthere were some neat features of the OS though too. The choice of execute in place seemed to work really well for them12:01
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tigertjohnx: a lot of "modern" OSes have a lot more tasks you can do12:01
* RST38h makes a sidenote about Maemo5 task switcher being UX nightmare12:01
suihkulokkitigert: yeah, but 1) company networks where proxy is mandatory are still pretty common 2) as demoed by iphone, a non-deep proxy setting can be done easily12:01
tigertyet you can fit only so many things on screen at once for one-click12:01
tbftarelerulz: ask in the forum if the internal devel themes would be released12:01
tbftarelerulz: some of them where much more glossy and shiny12:01
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tigertsuihkulokki: agreed12:01
RST38htigert: You do know how this is normally handled?12:02
RST38h(or at least how PalmOS design team handled it)12:02
tigertsuihkulokki: but I am just spoiled by the 2Mbit/s 3G12:02
tigertRST38h: ?12:02
tigertRST38h: please explain?12:02
tbftigert: oh, you are here. is there a chance some of the devel themes get released?12:02
johnxsuihkulokki, fire your IT guy :>12:02
RST38htigert: You make a huge list of all the things that you should be able to do with the UI12:02
tigerttbf: I am just poking at that issue12:02
tigerttbf: I realized the layout and theme template is not out :P12:03
johnxmaking a transparent proxy is not rocket science ...12:03
tigertask about that in talk.maemo.org12:03
RST38htigert: You sort them in order of use frequency, use human guinea pigs to measure which ones are more important and how much time each takes12:03
tigertto help the effort :)12:03
* Stskeeps 'd be happy to see hildon-theme-{tools,layout-5,devel} on gitorious12:03
tigertRST38h: yeah12:03
tigertStskeeps: me too12:03
tigertStskeeps: you too poke talk.maemo.org and mail quim12:03
tigertlets make it happen faster :)12:03
tbftigert: i pretty much loved the green theme.12:03
RST38htigert: Then your UX boffins are supposed to create a hierarchical UI design that makes more important/frequent tasks lie on top, hides the rest gracefully12:04
tigertRST38h: yep12:04
RST38htigert: Maemo5 UI apparently has not benefitted from this approach or maybe it has been rushed12:04
tbftigert: Stskeeps: fastest way for getting such a request propagated is a bug report with Quim in CC12:04
RST38htigert: PalmOS has got it perfectly, more or less12:04
tigertRST38h: yep, I dont think maemo is that bad either12:05
tbfthis one came back to my PM within one or two days: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=554912:05
povbotBug 5549: libosso-abook should be open source12:05
johnxRST38h, on maemo there is a difference between running programs and not running programs though12:05
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tigertsure there are deep menus, but like, that proxy setting, I never used it, so it worked ok for my case at least12:05
johnx(for better or worse)12:05
tigert:)12:05
TomaszDextras-devel is broken again :(12:05
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Stskeepstigert: -tools, -layout shouldn't be that big problem, and any problems with -devel would be nullified by the fact kontorri's theme maker has the template already :)12:07
RST38htigert: Well, Maemo5 is not a total loser at UI12:07
tigertStskeeps: and the sdk has the theme12:07
RST38htigert: There are LOTS of worse UIs12:07
tigertStskeeps: it shouldnt be a problem, just a matter of getting it done12:08
tigertStskeeps: thus big demand from the community couldnt hurt :)12:08
RST38htigert: It feels like a step back from Maemo4 UI in terms of utility though =(12:08
tigertRST38h: how so?12:08
tigertRST38h: its a bit step away from stylys for sure12:08
RST38htigert: More hassle to reach the same functions12:08
tigertthus, less can be on screen at once12:08
tigertbut I wouldnt want to use a stylus in a packed tram12:08
RST38htigert: Yea, but my guess is that you could work around the lack of stylus without hiding functionality12:09
julianol1vertarelerulz: have you seen Android on the Droid? it really does look pretty awful. the HTC skins of Android on their phones however, this 'sense' UI are quite well put together though.12:09
tigertbut using thumbs-on-keyboard/screen grip has no problme12:09
johnxabout two or three "face" buttons would go a loooong way to reducing clicks per task12:09
RST38htigert: For example, the list of running apps is now hidden12:09
RST38htigert: Furthermore, the list of available apps is not 1, 2, or 3 clicks away, depending on whether you have running apps and whether your app is "privileged"12:09
RST38htigert: The necessity to know how many times you have to click is a burden to the user12:10
tigertRST38h: if one combined running apps and launcher, that would mean you almost always had to pan to reach what you look for12:10
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RST38htigert: Furthermore, all user apps are now dumped into the same huge pane that you are supposed to finger scroll12:10
tigertRST38h: now it is one extra click to see all running apps12:10
Stskeepstigert: got some CC's i can use on the bug report to hit the right people?12:10
RST38htigert: Yea, I know the reasoning, seen it before12:10
RST38htigert: Just do not think it works out this way :)12:11
johnxRST38h, the source code to the task switcher is there :) Would be really neat if someone did a total UI overhaul ...12:11
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RST38htigert: And my pet peeve is of course false clicks when scrolling12:11
julianol1verthe thing that irritates me a little about using the N900 is accidental clicks, for instance when scrolling a list of contacts or media files. selection should not be so easily mistaken for resistive contact.12:11
julianol1verRST38h: hah, snap12:11
johnxok, so it was a bad idea on my part. come back everyone!12:12
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tigertRST38h: yeah, those are nasty if they happen12:12
tigertRST38h: the filtering + user learning seems to be the only way to help them12:12
RST38htigert: I am pretty much treating current Maemo5 UI as a minefiled: one wrong delay with your finger pressed to the screen, and it starts launching stuff etcv12:12
julianol1veroverall however, i think the UI of the N900 is really good. a low learning curve.12:12
tigertRST38h: panning  itself makes interactions tricky12:12
RST38htigert: Well there is another way to help these problems12:13
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RST38htigert: Check out MediaBox app: the author explicitely SEPARATES scroll-sensitive parts of the screen from touch-sensitive action buttons12:13
tigertStskeeps: claudio maybe12:13
RST38htigert: Of course, MediaBox UI has got a bunch of its own problems, I would never suggest emulating it :)12:13
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tigert:)12:14
johnxRST38h, we could call the scroll area a "scroll bar"12:14
johnxI'm gonna go patent it right now!12:14
RST38htigert: But the idea of scrolling and activation made in different spots of the screen is a good one12:14
RST38hjohnx: Run to the patent office like RIGHT NOW :)12:14
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RST38htigert: And yes, I am well aware of a dozen nokia UX people who will scream "YOu ARE KILLING OUR CONCEPT!" at you if you mention returning to scroll bars12:15
johnxRST38h, just got back. some jerk from some copier manufacture got there before me :| works in some kind of xerox park or something ...12:15
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tigertRST38h: yeah, though that means you need to reserve space for that action click area12:15
RST38htigert: Yea12:15
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tigertRST38h: you dont necessarily need scrollbars, just use panning for part of the screen12:15
tigertbut its still taking space12:16
RST38htigert: But people are asking for the return of scroll bar indicators anyway12:16
tigertwhy?12:16
johnxno, they don't. they need a touchscreen that extends beyond the LCD12:16
RST38htigert: Who knows? Humans are strange.12:16
tigertscroll *indicator* is good and different than scrollbar12:16
RST38htigert: But it still takes space :)12:16
tigertmaemo5 has those on all pannable things12:16
tigertbut it is smaller12:16
tigertsince it is not a interactive thing12:16
RST38htigert: Only they disappear when not scrolling12:16
johnxsmall scroll indicator onscreen, scrolling area to the right and left of the screen12:16
RST38hWhoever came up with this "great" idea...12:16
odin_I like the scrollbar indicator, even if it was an alpha channel overlap on right hand side of area, rather then permanent space12:17
tigertwell, sure you need to learn them the first time12:17
RST38htigert: Anyway, just saying that the current UI definitely needs some work, and maybe from someone who is realistic about user interactions12:17
tigertsure, nothing is perfect :)12:17
suihkulokkithe key problem with disappearing scrollbar is that you might not realize some pannable area actually has more buttons than you see12:18
odin_s/overlap/overlay/  my main gripe is non-consisent understanding of what is "pannable" and what is "scrollable"12:18
RST38htigert: A fe things (like scroll bar disappearing) can be fixed right away, others require redesign12:18
julianol1verodin_: indeed12:18
RST38hs/fe/few12:18
tigertRST38h: but its not like it came out of random shit fet into emacs :)12:18
tigertRST38h: we have UX folks that are pretty good12:18
julianol1vertigert: i met a couple of them last weekend.12:18
tigertits just a complex thing too, and also a big matter of opinion12:18
odin_I just want slide-in from right jesture, to always activate scrolling, slide in from right and move up/down always means to scroll12:18
julianol1verthey seemed very strong on applied research,12:18
RST38htigert: It is not profficiency that I worry about, it is dogmatism :)12:18
tigertand also a matter of opinion12:18
tigertthere is no single "right way" to do things12:19
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johnxtigert, I agree there. no one talks about the parts of the UI that they really like, since the whole point of a good UI is to get out of your way :)12:19
tigertyeah12:19
RST38htigert: I.e. unability to say "ok, this all-scrolling approach does not quite work, let us step away from it here, here, and there"12:19
odin_of course there is tons of stuff that is great12:19
suihkulokkitigert: case example: control panel display popup12:19
suihkulokkis/display/profiles/12:20
julianol1verodin_: what do you think of the current method of getting 'out' of the application menu?12:20
infobotsuihkulokki meant: tigert: case example: control panel profiles popup12:20
RST38htigert: Or "we cannot tell developers to cut down application features just because they make our neww great menus too complex"12:20
RST38htigert: (and you know that THIS has been said)12:20
odin_julianol1ver, application menu, as in the pull down menus, with the fuzzy background area (of the window below) ?12:20
julianol1verthe window below, with web, contacts, email etc.12:21
suihkulokkiRST38h: it is still much better to have the settings in one scrollable area than in a hierarchical menu12:21
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tigertRST38h: browser is one good example where you cannot have deep menus12:22
tigertI mean12:22
tigertwhere you just cannot have six menuitems to live with12:22
odin_julianol1ver, the top left corner button ?12:22
julianol1verit seems to me there is currently no clearly demarcated way to leave that area and go back 'up' to the workspace. you just tap on the top of the screen. this is not good IMHO.12:22
tigertRST38h: I think it has a pretty ok approach with dialog-with-more-menuitems :D12:22
suihkulokkior. like in the case of proxy setting, behind multiple popups, wizard, menus, tabs, and finally in a non-pannable scroll area :P12:22
odin_julianol1ver, yes I see what you mean, does the touch screen work in the outside areas ?  iPhone has a button doesn't it12:23
julianol1verodin_: i think so, yes12:23
TomaszDcan anyone tell my why does "No hash entry in Release file" happen so often for extras-devel12:23
odin_so why not touch the black part to the right or left of the screen ?  left for back and right for forward?12:23
odin_julianol1ver, Im thinking touchscreen only works on the visible screen part and not on the black bits at the side12:24
tigertjulianol1ver: this was one of those decisions, that leaving out the close-button / cancel button made the ui simpler12:24
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tigertjulianol1ver: and user testing showed people had no problem learning the feature of tapping outside the dialog to close it12:24
odin_tigert, yes but the application menu is not a dialog12:25
tigertthat too12:25
odin_tigert, the pull down fuzzy bit, is great12:25
tigertsame thing12:25
tigertI mean the general idea of closing things by tapping on the fuzzy part12:25
odin_tigert, but there is no "outside" in the application menu, unless you spend an extra moment carefully aiming your pointer and hoping it did not activate anything12:25
julianol1vertigert: right. it's more that it's an inconsistency, a logical break somehow. the blurred background click, a kind of zoom-to-focus is great.12:26
odin_tigert, yes the fuzzy part is great12:26
odin_tigert, and when there is no fuzzy part ?12:26
tigertodin_: ?12:26
julianol1vertigert: odin is right. there is no 'outside' in this case though.12:26
tigertwhen?12:26
julianol1vertigert: when you're looking at the window of applications.12:26
tigertyou mean the open apps list?12:26
tigertor what?12:26
sp3000launcher I presume?12:26
julianol1verthere is a slightly larget 'gap' above the icons than at the base.12:27
odin_no the "Web", "Media PLayer" ,etc...12:27
tigertyeah12:27
tigertyou can tap outside any icon12:27
tigerton top there is more space yeah12:27
tigertbut also on left, right or bottom12:27
odin_maybe the launcher just needs the top left corner with a curled arrow to the left  (go back)12:27
julianol1vertigert: hmm.. does the space 'between' icons count as outside?12:27
tigertno :)12:27
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tigertthat wouldnt make sense12:27
julianol1ver;)12:27
lardmanmorning12:28
lardmanquick debian question, using .install files in my debian dir, I'm getting an error like this: dh_install: libzbar0 missing files (/usr/lib/libzbar.so.*), aborting12:28
lardmanwhat should I be looking at?12:28
julianol1vertigert: of course, but the gap between them is almost as large as the gap at the top.. hence the possibility for a logical break.12:28
odin_a button in the top left cornet would not make any sense ?12:28
tigerttop left corner does have a button already12:29
odin_also half the websites loaded into it are down or not yes available12:29
julianol1vertigert: it's not visible here..12:29
tigertit toggles between task switcher and launcher12:29
tigertif you have open apps12:29
tigertno wait12:29
tigertyou are right12:29
tigertits just in the switcher12:29
tigertbut thats the thing12:29
odin_no I mean one that is either visible all the time.... or visible for a moment when you enter the launcher screen and fades away... just so the user knows how to get back12:30
tigertpeople learned to use the "tap on outside to close"12:30
tigertso there is no real need for a button there12:30
RST38hsuihkulokki,tigert: The menu stuff has been discussed here a few times, the #maemo consensus has been (I think) that you should use "filters" as the top level of the app menus12:30
tigert= cleaner ui12:30
tigertless clutter12:30
tigert(heh, pun not intended :))12:30
tigertas the launcher uses "clutter" toolkit ;)12:30
RST38htigert: Funnily, some dialogs cannot be closed by tapping outside =)12:30
tigertRST38h: those are confirmation dialogs12:30
* RST38h hit this problem a few weeks ago, still does not know how to fix it12:30
tigertand yeah, I know12:30
tigertthose dont have "cancel"12:31
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tigertbut you need to do a choice12:31
* lardman thinks it might be the first /12:31
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odin_RST38h,  the user should always have the right to cancel any operation back to some point, if the design of the work flow is such that programming didn't allow that, then the work flow of the task needs to be fixed so it can12:32
sp3000yeah the / is suspicious but I don't really remember my packagings12:32
suihkulokkiRST38h: for example have a pannable area with the common settings and then a checkbox "advanced settings" which adds when checked more settings to the end of pannable list?12:32
Jaffatigert: In particular the MU updates notification has options of "Ignore" or "Continue". What if I want to defer by cancelling?12:32
* julianol1ver hopes this channel is logged.12:32
lardmanI like the application manager installing dialog which can't be closed by tapping outside, but at least has a Cancel button, but it's always greyed out12:33
Jaffajulianol1ver: See th topic12:33
tarelerulzI know maemo is Linux phone so it all about chose and those chose are limitless ,but what about the basic features of a smart phone .  Making phone calls , texting people , Listening to song or two , maybe movies  . Is that all easy and fast to do ?12:34
odin_should the "Nokia System Software Updates" catalog be offline ?12:34
Jaffatarelerulz: Yes.12:34
lardmanif I'm not using CDBS (yay!), how can I get DEB_DH_INSTALL_SOURCEDIR to work?12:34
odin_at https://downloads.maemo.nokia.com/fremantle/20312:34
Jaffatarelerulz: Only big gap is, perhaps, MMS12:35
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tarelerulzIs there  like websites to define all the terms one need to know to understand phones.  What the types of networks (3g) , who makes phones , carries12:36
odin_access denied and hosted by a248.e.akamai.net (guess you are expecting some traffic on it)12:36
julianol1verJaffa: good news12:37
lardmanjeremiah: help!12:37
lardmanah, no qwerty either!12:37
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Jaffatarelerulz: gsmarena.com maybe12:39
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jeremiahlardman: Hi!12:41
lardmanhey12:41
jeremiahlardman: how goes the wonderful world of packaginge?12:42
jeremiah:)12:42
lardmanYou never know, I may have fixed it myself, but probably not12:42
jeremiahKnowing you, I bet you fixed it, but what was _it_?12:42
lardmandh_install by default looks for the files to move in debian/<package name>?12:42
lardmanah, error in dh_install, not being able to find files12:42
jeremiahI'd have to read the code to be certain?12:42
lardmans/in/using12:42
jeremiahBut I can do that now12:42
lardmanwait one, I'll see if this works12:43
jeremiahokay12:43
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lardmanah no, f ailed again12:43
lardman:)12:43
lardmanwill pastebin rules for you12:43
jeremiahdebian/package.install12:43
lardmanhttp://maemo.pastebin.com/m47635d9712:44
jeremiahList the files to install into each package and the directory they should be installed to.12:44
lardmanyeah, I have lots of debian/package-this-that.install files12:44
jeremiahah okay.12:44
lardmanyep, e.g.12:44
lardmanusr/include/zbar/QZBar*.h12:44
lardmanusr/lib/libzbarqt.la12:44
lardmanusr/lib/libzbarqt.a12:44
lardmanusr/lib/libzbarqt.so12:44
lardmanusr/lib/pkgconfig/zbar-qt.pc12:44
lardmanI removed the leading / as some .install files don't seem to use it (working ones)12:44
jeremiahSo you are using dh_install --fail-missing12:45
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jeremiahAnd that is where you are seeing errrors?12:45
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jeremiaherrrrrrors12:45
lardmanI guess so12:45
lardmanthe error is: dh_install: libzbar0 missing files (usr/lib/libzbar.so.*), aborting12:45
lardmanwhich is sort of terminal12:45
jeremiahahah12:45
jeremiahokay12:45
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lardmanwhat is up with the bloody Debian naming scheme?12:46
jeremiahwhat do you mean?12:46
jeremiahheh12:46
lardmanThis lib is version 0.10.0, and so they name the library libzbar.so.o.o.212:46
lardmans/o/012:47
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jeremiahNot sure why, that is a bit curious.12:47
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lardmanmadness12:47
lardmanshall I upload the packages so you can see the whole thing?12:47
jeremiahI suppose.12:47
lardmanyou don't sound so keen... ;)12:48
jeremiahIs this somewhere I can login?12:48
lardmanjust my uni website12:48
lardmanyou can download12:48
jeremiahI just think it might be easier if I go to the packages rather than the packages come to me12:48
jeremiahBut if I can't login to the Uni, I can download12:48
jeremiahno biggie12:48
jeremiahI'll do that.12:48
jeremiahURL me up . . .12:48
lardmanhttp://people.bath.ac.uk/enpsgp/nokia770/temp/12:50
lardmanserves me right for doing someone a favour and building the Qt bindings ;)12:51
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jeremiahah yes, favors always cost. :)12:51
lardmanwell I did want to get rid of the python runtime dep anyway, so I can try killing two birds and missing myself12:52
jeremiahWe are focusing just on the zbar stuff?12:53
jeremiahI don't need to download everything there?12:53
jeremiahlardcode! lulz12:53
lardmanjust zbar, but it builds the deps too12:54
lardmanso you do need to download everything, and add libkitchen-sink too12:54
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lardmans/deps/bindings12:54
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lardmanthough actually the problem is probably generic, so you could try removing all the other build-depends and just try building libzbar012:56
julianoliverlardman: the problem with debian numbering you describe is related, AFAIK, to a discrepancy between the library author's versioning model and Debian's own.12:56
julianoliverDebian will try to keep a logical incremental numbering of *.so in the filesystem.12:56
lardmanjulianoliver: how do I fix it to make it sensible?12:57
lardmani.e. .so.0.10.012:57
julianoliverIMO there should be a *.so and then anything else should be a symlink back to that. in other words, a version 3 would be a mylib.so.3 -> mylib.so12:58
lardmanagreed12:58
julianoliverlardman: i'd ask in the developer channel of #debian though.. i've been packaging for years but only as a hobby, and for my own work.12:58
lardmanah, I'll ask jeremiah :)12:59
julianolivergood idea ;)12:59
jeremiahMe? I am not prepared to wade into the thicket that is .so naming. :)12:59
julianoliverhehe12:59
lardmanwell do you know how to name it the way I want?12:59
jeremiah=]13:00
jeremiahsymlink?13:00
lardmanactually just building is more important atm13:00
jeremiahyeah, one fire at a time.13:00
jeremiahI have the entire dir contents downloaded.13:00
lardmanyeah, is probably the Makefiles have been abused by those nasty debian packagers13:00
lardmanoh, you only needed the zbar* stugg13:00
lardmanff13:00
lardmanI thought you were talking about the building, sorry13:01
jeremiahWhat is zbar?13:01
jeremiahA bar code scanner?13:01
lardmanbarcode scanner backend13:01
lardmanyep13:01
jeremiahcool13:01
lardmanI use it in mbarcode13:01
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jeremiahThere is lots of python in the code13:02
johnxwoo! the proforma guy is gonna release some code for linux I think13:02
jeremiahHow are you going to eliminate that as a depends?13:02
Stskeepsjohnx: mm?13:02
jeremiahoh, all that stuff may just be bindings?13:02
johnxproforma: http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/23/cambridges-proforma-does-3d-scanning-with-any-stationary-webcam/13:02
lardmanjeremiah: the python stuff should be packaged into its own .deb, as it's just a binding13:02
jeremiahyeah, I see that there are lots of other language bindings here13:03
lardmanhappy to have Python as a Build-depends, but previously it was also being pulled in as a runtime dep13:03
jeremiahShouldn't be packaged this way13:03
jeremiahEPACKAGEFAIL13:03
lardmanbut I've changed the control and .install files, to match the debian ones......13:03
jeremiahoh well13:03
lardmanwhy not, what's up with it?13:03
jeremiahWell, should one just create a library and package the bindings separately?13:03
jeremiahThat makes more sense to me.13:03
lardmanisn't that what it does?13:04
jeremiahCould be13:04
jeremiahBut I think they should be physically separate packages.13:04
lardmanthey should be, look at the .install files and the control file13:04
jeremiahBut I don't want to try to build them all in one go13:05
jeremiahbut whatever, I'll try13:05
lardmanoh I see13:05
jeremiahI mean, there are perl bindings here13:05
lardmanwell you could edit the control file to just build Package: libzbar013:05
jeremiahAnd I know that Nokia hacks the perl modules to peices in the device13:05
lardmanPerl?13:05
lardmanhmm, no Perl packages I can see13:05
jeremiahYeah13:05
jeremiahunder zbar-0.10 I see a perl dir13:06
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hrwmorning13:06
lardmanoh yeah13:06
hrw~hail Marcell Lengyel13:06
* infobot bows down to Marcell Lengyel and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!"13:06
lardmannot sure it's even used13:06
lardmanbuilt ok on my Fremantle target until I got to the packaging13:06
lizardolardman: make sure you don't have "${python:Depends}"   on the Depends field if you don't want python on runtime , but just on build time13:06
lizardobrb13:06
lardmanlizardo: will check, thanks13:06
florianhrw: uh?13:07
jeremiahWell, its just hard to diagnose problems if I don't know which of the six dozen packages is failing.13:07
lardmanall of them13:07
lardmanit's a generic problem with dh_install13:07
lardmanit doesn't seem to find the debian/zbar directory into which the files are installed before being packaged13:07
jeremiahoh yeah - that is familiar13:08
lardmandh_install: libzbar0 missing files (usr/lib/libzbar.so.*), aborting13:08
jeremiahthere is a workaround . . .13:08
lardmanso that one, which is the main lib and will avoid you needing to download the deps, should show the problem13:08
lardmanyeah the workaround I have is for CDBS though13:08
lardmanDEB_DH_INSTALL_SOURCEDIR13:08
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lardmanor at least I assume that CDBS does something with that13:09
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jeremiahCDBS is the antichrist, therefor I don't speak with it on a regular basis13:10
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lardmanagreed13:10
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jeremiahIn any case, let me try to build and poke.13:10
lardmanbut what I think I need is a non-CDBS version of that DEB_DH_INSTALL_SOURCEDIR fix13:10
hrwflorian: after long long long time maemo repository directory indexes are sorted alphabetically13:10
julianol2verjohnx: i wonder how well that reconstruction works on non planar volumes.13:10
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lardmanjeremiah: thanks13:11
johnxjulianol2ver, as in curved things?13:11
johnxor a tangle of wires13:11
florianhrw: ah right13:11
johnxwell, hopefully he'll release some code and we can all see for ourselves. I'm really stoked about seeing something like this on an N90013:12
florianhrw: we should try to boost maemo support in oe a little bit13:12
julianol2verjohnx: yes, a face for example with less feature points.13:13
johnxit looks ok on the can13:13
johnxproblem is a face doesn't follow the rigid body transforms they rely on13:13
julianol2verjohnx: i work in natural feature tracking/computer vision and so i too am very curious.13:13
johnxa mask would be an interesting test13:13
SpeedEviljohnx: The inverse would be even more shiny13:14
SpeedEviljohnx: Stationary object, moving camera.13:14
julianol2vermesh generation from delauney triangles isn't necessarily so optimal either. most of those planes should just be a quad. needs an algorithm for face culling.13:14
johnxSpeedEvil, yeah, but they seem to have good reasons for doing things the way they do13:14
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* RST38h moos scornfully13:15
johnxjulianol2ver, sadly, I'm totally underqualified to guess about stuff like this :)13:15
SpeedEviljohnx: I mean hold the n900 up, with both cameras going, and do a slow pan to make a pan, then move a bit around several times to do a 3d scene13:15
julianol2verjohnx: well it's great work. the more the merrier.13:16
johnxSpeedEvil, would definitely be cool, but the way they track feature points is through motion relative to the background it seems13:16
SpeedEviljohnx: Sure - but that works in the case the camera is in motion too13:16
SpeedEviljohnx: as I understand it anyway13:16
SpeedEvilBut the motion would tend to be a lot slower - which may hurt13:17
RST38hGentlemen, are you all talking about that silly iPhone app?13:17
julianol2verSpeedEvil: the issue with the N900 for computer vision is that the camera capture rate is too low. what you describe will produce motion blur and thus bad track data.13:17
johnxRST38h, nah, http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/23/cambridges-proforma-does-3d-scanning-with-any-stationary-webcam/13:17
RST38hkick-iphone-zealot-down-the-stairs-and-watch-him-cradle-his-iphone ?13:17
RST38hjohnx: Ah that one...13:17
SpeedEviljulianol2ver: I was assuming the video camera, and the main camera at the same time.13:17
julianol2verSpeedEvil: nonetheless, it has promise, particularly for Simultaneous Mapping and Tracking with Relocalisation.13:17
TomaszDwoo, ac3-support is now in extras-devel :)13:18
johnxRST38h, he did an interview with some blog and said he was planning to release some code soonish13:18
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SpeedEviljulianol2ver: the video camera produces real-time pointing data, and helps it to register where the photos are13:18
RST38hjohnx: the 3d scanning guy?13:18
johnxRST38h, yeah. pretty keen, huh?13:18
SpeedEvilhttp://mi.eng.cam.ac.uk/~qp202/ - register for more info on the algorithm, and a linux version when it come sout13:18
RST38hjohnx: Well, it has been possible before, but has never been perfect and required LOTS of computing resources13:18
RST38hjohnx: If the guy made it good enough to generate usable 3D models, on a desktop PC, that would be a breakthrough of sorts13:19
johnxit's still not perfect, but making it accessible to people with moderate hardware and releasing some source would be a very interesting development I think13:19
SpeedEvil^realtime13:19
RST38hyea13:20
johnxthe meshes still have some real weirdness, but the object is definitely recognizable13:20
SpeedEvilThe fact that you can see 'oooh - the model's screwed up, it needs more data there' is nice13:20
julianol2verjohnx: that's due to the delauney triangles.. he just needs a pass that does corner finding and then projects quads after he has the 3d corners.13:20
johnxjulianol2ver, sooo, what I'm getting is that you'd be interested to hack on this? :D13:21
SpeedEvilLots of this stuff is 'easy' - if you've read all the papers, and have the maths skills.13:21
julianol2verjohnx: it's easy enough for it to be uninteresting for a clever chap like that to implement ;)13:21
julianol2verjohnx: for sure, if it's open. i'm working on Augmented Reality for Maemo5 atm.. it's a long road though, for ARM. Intel has the computer vision space wrapped up..13:22
hrwflorian: idea is nice, but I wait for device before doing anything related to maemo513:22
jeremiahlardman: Sorry - Tero Kojo contacted me on jabber so just chatting with him a bit . . .13:23
lardmanjeremiah: np13:23
florianhrw: We all wait for the same  :-)13:23
johnxjulianol2ver, very cool. I mainly follow these sorts of things (3D scanning, AR) as an awed user, rather than a dev :)13:24
lardmanwhat does one have to do to promote from extras-devel to testing?13:24
lardmanis there some sort of test, etc., or is it down to me?13:24
julianol2verjohnx: most computer vision, likely including that above, is based on OpenCV. LibCVD offers a bright future though for advanced visual tracking on ARM Cortex A8. we just need more algorithms and high-level abstractions in there to compete with OpenCV.13:24
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julianol2verjohnx: see oxfords PTAM, for instance. this uses LibCVD.13:25
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hrwflorian: ddp?13:25
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florianhrw: yes13:26
johnxanyways, gonna catch some sleep for now. good talking with you julianol2ver13:27
johnx'night all13:27
hrwflorian: when I wrote my last blog post about ddp I did not expected that it becames so popular13:27
lardmannight johnx13:28
julianol2verjohnx: night13:28
tarelerulzWhy can't you get maemo device such as the n900 in the us ? It looks better then both android and webos ?13:30
florianhrw: heh13:31
SpeedEviltarelerulz: you can13:31
SpeedEviltarelerulz: nokia.com13:31
tarelerulzWhy then is every thing I read about unlocked phones ?13:31
SpeedEviltarelerulz: you can get it. It's not subsidised - but you can get it.13:32
tarelerulzIs unlocking the same as rooting and jailbraking ?13:33
glass_if unlocking refers to sim-lock removal, no13:33
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tarelerulzSo, a locked sim-card mean you can't use the phone on other phone networks ?13:34
SpeedEviltarelerulz: yes13:34
SpeedEviltarelerulz: well - a locked phone13:34
SpeedEviltarelerulz: It means replacing the SIM card with one from anotehr network won't work13:35
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florianhrw: I have played with the SDK a little bit too. Tested the Qt integration. Apart from the fact that the installation procedure of the SDK is still a pain like in the early beginning its technically the most interesting platform to develop for.13:36
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VDVsxflorian, you can install it now via a GUI app :)13:37
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florianVDVsx: Ah right, I have seen some menu entry for this in Esbox. Or is there anythign else?13:37
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florianVDVsx: I was testing the Qt instructions which did not cover this yet.13:38
VDVsxflorian, is there a PyQt app that install everything, even Qt, I think13:39
pillarI would be interested in that as well, I am just trying to get Qt development environment setup13:39
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VDVsxnot the last Qt, but the one shipped with the devices13:39
Bleadof4.5.313:39
BleadofI suspect that when 4.6 comes out it'll be released as an update as well. :)13:40
VDVsxit's here: http://www.forum.nokia.com/info/sw.nokia.com/id/c05693a1-265c-4c7f-a389-fc227db4c465/Maemo_5_SDK.html13:40
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pillarI tried to install 4.6 to the device, but it is complaining about some opengl dependencies13:41
hrwflorian: I just took official virtualization image with sdk13:41
VDVsxpillar, works here, without any issue so far13:41
hrwflorian: and after 'apt-get update/upgrade' it even works13:41
odin_it must be christmas already... N900, E72 and 16Gb microSD Class6 all in 24hours13:42
VDVsxpillar, I'm using the packages available at -devel13:42
florianhrw: did you ever see the nice Qt cross compiling instructions using OE to create a toolchain?13:42
* odin_ 's N900 is going offline... for storage updates13:42
hrwflorian: nope13:42
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hrwflorian: but I wrote my first Qt application finally13:43
pillarVDsx weird..13:43
hrwflorian: first from scratch one13:43
florianhrw: http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/09/10/cross-compiling-qtx11/13:43
florianmodern computers seem to be too fast :)13:44
lardmanjeremiah: I'm thinking about dh_install --sourcedir=13:45
pillarthe packages it is complaining are libgles2-sgx-img-dev and opengles-sgx-img-common-dev13:45
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odin_can the web-browser password dialogs be made to work like the password widget (show the character briefly before "*" )13:47
viggidoesn't that kinda beat the purpose of the starthingys?13:47
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odin_well star thingys on a mobile device are kind of pointless... I mean a VDU/LCD/monitor someone can at least see if they stand close enough behind13:48
* RST38h wonders when to expect KOffice for Maemo13:48
odin_wow how did they make 16Gb so small ?13:49
pillarI second the need for the password fields to show the characters for a second before stars13:50
MekRST38h: hopefully shortly after a new official qt is released for maemo...13:50
hrwflorian: nice13:50
odin_pillar, maybe I open my first bug/enh report, I have signed up to everything this morning :)13:51
RST38hMek: any idea of the date?13:51
hrwodin_: report, report - I will have less to report ;)13:51
odin_does the platform have a "secure password storage API" ?13:52
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pillarodin sounds good13:52
odin_one which is locked/encryped to the pin/device lock ?13:52
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MekRST38h: 'soon'...13:52
vasily_pupkinhi13:52
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vasily_pupkinanybody know, how can i toggle preventing black screen?13:53
RST38hyou want to disable screen blanking?13:54
vasily_pupkini want to enable it, when some stupid program don't do it by itself :]13:54
pillarI am hoping that 'soon' will also include integration to QtCreator so that you can run/debug QtApps in scratchbox from the ide13:54
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kalikianavasily_pupkin, it's not something application do by themselves13:56
kalikianait depends on whether you enable or disable it13:56
kalikianaif at all, apps can request to unblank the screen13:56
vasily_pupkinwhen i start digia@scene, mplayer  they disable screen blacking13:57
vasily_pupkinsometimes mplayer not enable it, for example after crash13:57
vasily_pupkinand i run digia@scene, and then close it, and then all ok :]13:57
kalikianathen you should tell the developers to let you disable that13:58
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vasily_pupkinhm. i thought that screen blacking - platform feature13:58
kalikianayes, unless an application says "please don't" :-)13:59
vasily_pupkinem, is there any way manually say - YES, DO IT TO ME? :D14:00
odin_should the URL https://downloads.maemo.nokia.com/fremantle/203 for the "Nokia System Software Updates" catalog be offline, or returning Access Denied to me ?  maybe my phone has wrong URL shipped ?14:01
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lardmanjeremiah: looks to have worked, just need to remove the --fail-missing too otherwise it fails as some docs are not packaged14:03
zaheerm[blatant] i need one more vote for zoutube before it hits the magical 10, anyone fancy testing it? http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/zoutube/0.1-18/14:03
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odin_my 16Gb mem card only has 14.83Gb free ?  must I have VFAT on that ?14:06
jeremiahaha14:07
jeremiahlardman: Good to hear.14:08
jeremiahI just got out of the shower.14:08
odin_jffs2.ko ?  isn't that like the proper one ?14:08
jeremiahSo I haven't been hacking on the package much14:08
lardmanlol14:08
lardmanwaterproof kb14:08
jeremiah:(14:08
jeremiahActually, I know a hacker who used their computer in the shower.14:09
jeremiahThey would type with a toothbrush14:09
Stskeepsn90014:09
Stskeeps?14:09
Stskeeps:P14:09
jeremiahNo, this was a perl hacker.14:09
lardmanI'd get crinkly if I had to debug debianisation problems in the shower14:09
Stskeepsthey shower?14:09
jeremiahThey had to stop, doctor said it was just too much14:09
* jeremiah smacks Stskeeps upside the head14:09
lardmanperl is bad for you14:09
jeremiahperl is the bomb!14:10
jeremiah=]14:10
odin_UBIFS ?14:10
lardmans/the/da14:10
lardmanoh come on Garage14:10
jeremiahgarage?14:10
jeremiahGood luck14:10
lardmanyeah, sloooooooow14:10
jeremiahIt is just a couple of 770's strapped together14:10
lardmanlooks like one has responded :)14:11
jeremiahheh14:11
jpjokelaodin_: I guess you are also comparing GiB againist GB, but of course there's also some filesystem overhead14:11
jeremiahlets hope it is the one with a login to the autobuilder!14:11
lardmanlol, yes indeed14:12
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jpjokelaodin_: Unless you are using latest (or is that out yet?) MacOS X, the OS likely reports size in GiB, while hardware manufacturers use GB to make it "sound bigger"14:12
odin_15558144 mmcblk0, 31264768 mmcblk1 (but it appears to have partitions...) 28315648 mmcblk1p1, 2097152 mmcblk1p2, 786432 mmcblk1p3 from /proc/partitions14:13
jeremiahLatest OS X is Snow Leopard. 10.6.14:13
jpjokelajebbajeb: Does it already display file sizes in GB (and MB, KB etc.) instead of industry standard GiB etc?14:14
jpjokelabah, wrong nick14:14
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zaheermhow can i find out what process keeps waking up the screen?14:14
meceperhaps OS X wants to make stuff look bigger too?14:15
sijksnow leopard uses GB (not GiB)14:17
odin_the extra partitions on the new MMC are they required ?14:17
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lardmanodin_: yes they are14:20
lardmanodin_: spread between the two devices, /home lives in one, /home/MyDocs in another - what else is there?14:21
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odin_no the 16Gb MMC I put into it... not the on-board storage (32Gb)14:21
lardmanah, probably not then14:21
lardmandid it create them?14:21
lardmanI've only got one partition on my card14:22
odin_I have 2Gb /home, 28Gb /home/user/MyDocs and a 14.83Gb /media/mmc114:22
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odin_but the /proc/partitions has: 15558144 mmcblk0, 31264768 mmcblk1 (but it appears to have partitions...) 28315648 mmcblk1p1, 2097152 mmcblk1p2, 786432 mmcblk1p3 from /proc/partitions14:22
odin_its also funny the on-board size appears smaller but maybe sector size is diff ? as /proc/partitions counts sectors14:23
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lardmanwell if only the first partition has been mounted that's fair enough14:23
lardmanbut why are there 3 partitions on the external card?14:23
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odin_yep thats right, I dunno thats how the manufactuer supplied it (Transcend, microSD class 6 !!!)14:23
odin_maybe they are trying to brand me up.. with windows gizmos and shite...14:24
lardmanas you say, perhaps a sector size optimisation?14:24
lardmanit's not one of these cards that can be encrypted is it?14:24
lardmanwhere the first partition is mounted to access the encryption tools, etc14:24
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odin_I do not belive so14:26
lardmanwhat are the sizes from /proc/partitions? MB?14:26
lardmankB even14:26
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odin_ah no... mmc0 is the card I just added and mmc1 is the on-board MMC14:27
lardmanah yes, the wonders of the mmc numbering comes back :)14:28
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odin_thats weird.. and a bug ???  'df' reports /dev/mmcblk0p2 => /home, /dev/mmcblk0p1 => /home/user/MyDocs, /dev/mmcblk1p1 => /media/mmc114:28
lardmananyone with a Diablo sb target infront of them?14:29
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lardmanwhat's the name of the python-dev package?14:29
hrwodin_: it is not a bug14:29
odin_but 'dmesg' reports: mmc0: new high speed SDHC card at address aaaa, mmcblk0: mmc0:aaaa SU16G 14.8 GiB, mmcblk0: p1, ..... mmc1: new high speed MMC card at address 0001, mmcblk1: mmc1:0001 MMC32G 29.8 GiB, mmcblk1: p1 p2 p314:29
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hrwodin_: you used sd/mmc in linux powered device before?14:29
lizardolardman: that's exactly that :)14:29
lardmanhmm, just failed on that for me14:29
lizardolardman: are you on fremantle ?14:30
lardmanhttps://garage.maemo.org/builder/diablo/zbar_0.10-maemo2/armel.root.log.FAILED.txt14:30
odin_hrw, nope not used multiple MMCs in linux before14:30
lardmanyeah atm, but building for diablo too14:30
odin_but 'df' reports one stem and 'dmesg' another, thats just wrong14:30
jpjokelasijk: And I guess Snow Leopard still cannot sort files according to their filesize in Finder? :-)14:30
lizardolardman: ok, in diablo it is another one ... you have to use a "alternative dependency"14:30
lizardolardman: let me check here14:30
hrwodin_: udev probably renames cards14:30
lardmanlizardo: thanks, strange though, I thought that code had worked before14:30
jpjokelaWell it can't display file size anyway, so...14:30
lizardolardman: why do you need python-dev BTW ?14:31
lizardolardman: does you package build a binding ?14:31
lizardopython binding I mean14:31
lardmanyep14:31
odin_hrw, renames "mmcblk0" as "mmcblk1"   and then "mmcblk1" as "mmcblk0" .... that makes no sense14:31
lizardolardman: try  :   Depends:  python-dev | python2.5-dev14:31
lardmanok will do, thanks14:31
lizardolardman: it should work for both Fremantle and Diablo14:32
lardmanlizardo: is python-gtk2-dev also with the 2.5 then?14:32
lizardolardman: yes, same thing : Depends :   python-gtk2-dev | python2.5-gtk2-dev14:33
lardmanyep, thanks14:33
Myrttihere's some friday lolz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ14:33
lizardolardman: ooops , I meant "Build-Depends"14:33
lizardolardman: not  "Depends" :)14:33
lardman:) don't worry, I got that14:34
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lardmanwould anyone really write like that?14:35
lardmansurely all the |\/\?\?|?\/\ would drive you mad?14:36
* lardman refers to Myrtti's YouTube link above14:36
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mikedg-blaumaemo aint laemo!14:37
tbfoh, no: i don't want to upgrade to karmic :-( http://wiki.maemo.org/Building_packages_with_sbdmock14:37
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mikedg-blauhttps://instantrimshot.com14:37
tbfbut seems python-pip only shows up in karmic and requires python2.6 :-(14:38
tbfmami! hilfe!14:38
lardmandrat, built ok for Fremantle and not for Diablo, will have to bump version and upload again14:39
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lardmanso there's maemo-version (iirc), which I use, but is it also possible to test in the rules file and see what version of the autobuilder you're running on14:41
lardmanso that I can e.g. change the Makefile I'm usnig14:42
lardmanor even better, can I check in the Makefile so I can change some defines?14:42
th3_4zaradousnig14:44
lardmans/usnig/using14:44
th3_4zaradoOps error14:44
sijkjpjokela: I need to try that later at home14:45
sijkbut, it's unix, you may use ls :)14:45
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lardmanah /etc/maemo_version14:47
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* Lorthirk wants a girl who speaks leet.14:47
Arkenoihow do i change the alarm clock sound, where is it located?14:47
SpeedEvilLorthirk: speaks?14:48
LorthirkSpeedEvil: the video :)14:48
Lorthirk"I speak leet"14:49
Lorthirk0:5814:49
fralsgoogle sync not working is the new dealbreaker it seems ;D14:49
MyrttiI accidentally whole IRC, is it dangerous?14:50
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Lorthirkfrals: i suspect it's something google-side14:50
Myrttipft. leet. anyone can do that14:50
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hrwfrals: lack of syncing with anything rather14:51
lardmanhmm, so is awk the command to try for me to check whether /etc/maemo-version contains Fremantle?14:51
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jpjokelasijk: At least earlier versions can only show "amount of space used on disk", which of course is the "rounded up" size of the file, which makes sorting of files with "almost same size" not happen, as according to the OS, the size is the same14:55
lopzhi ;=)14:55
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zaheermhttp://news.spong.com/article/19861/Nintendo-Investigates-Nokias-Potential-Copyright-Infringement?via=rss14:58
Stskeepsoh boy..14:58
wazdmmmmmm14:58
adeusif [[ `cat /etc/meamo-version` == *Fremantle* ]] ; then echo "yes"; fi;14:59
wazdguys14:59
wazdhttp://tabletui.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/shot5.png14:59
wazddo you have white background there?14:59
adeuslardman, or you can do something like that14:59
wazdwhere "test white background" is written14:59
wazdaaaaah14:59
wazdstupid me :D14:59
pekujazaheerm: Nintendo probably has a case there14:59
wazdsorry. nm :)14:59
lardmanadeus: thanks :)14:59
adeusgetting rid of the cat is left as a further exercise :)15:01
lardmanhmm15:01
lardmanso that will work in rules15:01
lardmanbut I imagine not in the Makefile itself15:02
julianol2veradeus: if [[ `cat /etc/maemo_version` == *Fremantle* ]] ; then echo "yes"; fi;15:02
julianol2ver^^ 2 typos15:02
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lardman:)15:02
adeusmore exercises then15:02
jpjokelapekuja: But what to do about it? I mean, should Nokia introduce some DRM, that would somehow prevent any Nintendo emulators being ported to N900, but not anything else?15:03
adeuswell my shell takes that in at least15:03
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jpjokelaOf course the question is how "official" that is15:03
julianol2veradeus: '/etc/meamo-version'?15:03
julianol2ver13:55 < adeus> if [[ `cat /etc/meamo-version` == *Fremantle* ]] ; then echo "yes"; fi;15:04
julianol2veranywho. no matter.15:04
jpjokelajulianol2ver: After checking if such file exists in the first place (in case that would fail otherwise)15:04
adeusah15:04
glass_well. ubuntu has for example zsnes in it's repos, no?15:04
jpjokelaglass_: Exactly.15:04
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julianol2verjpjokela: the DRM problem/question is a big one..15:04
adeusI didn't have that file so I naturally it had a typo :)15:04
julianol2verhehe15:04
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adeusI tested with motd15:05
jpjokelajulianol2ver: It's impossible, if the platform would be in any way "open"15:05
lardmanyeah my fault for writing the wrong name15:05
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julianoliverjpjokela: indeed..15:05
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jpjokelaAnd taking that further, linux, windows, MacOS X, BSD, AmigaOS, MorphOS etc. have the same "problem" -  they all can run various nintendo emulators15:06
pekujajpjokela: I don't know. Actually, I thought at first that the potential lawsuit was about using Nintendo's trademarks in their official videos15:06
jpjokelaBut Nintendo hasn't really done much about that15:06
jpjokelaBut somehow now on N900 that is a problem15:06
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jpjokelapekuja: Indeed, if the video is official, then it might be a problem, or not. Just need to prove that the persons indeed legally own the roms, which were played? :)15:07
pekujaor it could be the fact that Nokia promoted the emulator15:07
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pekujajpjokela: well, I'm not sure, I was thinkin the problem would be the use of Nintendo's products to promote Nokia's product, so a possible trademark issue15:08
pekujajpjokela: I do think the video is official15:08
tbfafaik this only builds on software which was known and worked for ages15:08
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julianoliverhmm.. it'd be nice if maemo shipped with libnet.15:08
tbfso it could strike back to nintendo that they tolerated this software so far15:08
pekujaby the way, are the Nintendo emulators even comfy at all to use on N900?15:09
jpjokelapekuja: As long as you use good enough joystick, why not? :P15:09
th3_4zaradoby the way,15:09
pekujaa joystick?15:09
jpjokelaIt has bluetooth, hasn't it?15:09
pekujayeah15:09
pekujaok, so you could use a PS3 or a Wii controller, I guess15:09
tbfjulianoliver: find it's debian package, build it in sb, test it on device, upload it to extras-devel15:09
Arkenoi..and video out15:10
tbfjulianoliver: and promote it to testing once your app is ready15:10
pekujaI'm not sure if there are other Bluetooth gamepads out there15:10
jpjokelapekuja: Yes, and I guess there are other models aswell, but those are probably the 2 most common15:10
pekujaalso, I think having a Bluetooth gamepad kinda ruins the portability of the device15:10
julianolivertbf: i'm on the case!15:10
pekujawon't be playing Mario on a bus15:10
jpjokelapekuja: I am 100% sure, if nothing else, at least "unofficial clone controllers" for the mentioned platforms15:10
lardmanok, so this is no doubt pretty easy, but how do I execute a command in a Makefile, but to set a variable rather than in the rules sections15:10
pekujajpjokela: good point15:11
* Arkenoi played Elite on iNES on e9015:11
pekujait might be nice as a kind of small home console if you're going somewhere with a TV15:11
julianoliverpekuja: this is what Pandora is aiming for, like the GamePark GP2X before that.15:12
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jpjokelaand PSP aswell, although not "aimed" at the homebrew / emulation part of it15:13
tarelerulzDoes http://www.jamendo.com , render right  on a Pre ?  It a free music site . It would be cool to know if you can download songs from it to your phone15:14
pekujajulianoliver: yeah, that's a pretty sweet device15:14
pekujashould be coming out soon...15:14
tarelerulzDoes http://www.jamendo.com , render right  on a n900  ?  It a free music site . It would be cool to know if you can download songs from it to your phone15:14
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tank-mani am irc'ing from my phone and your text scrolled off,  repeat once more, over :)15:16
tbftarelerulz: you get the full firefox experience, so it should work15:16
pekujait's not firefox15:16
pekujait's mozilla15:16
tbfpekuja: some gecko, whatever15:16
pekujaor gecko, I suppose15:16
lardmannice, cat /etc/maemo-version` == *Fremantle* just segfautled sb15:17
tbfpekuja: just would be nice, if there would be some proper API for embedding kinetic scrolling browser into hildon/gtk apps15:17
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tarelerulzYou all should check the site out . it is cool free music site . its creative commons15:20
Stskeepsthe last part made me cringe for some reason15:21
tarelerulzDon't get me wrong there is alot of the music I don't like ,but it all ways good to have new sources15:21
tbftarelerulz: the page renders, downloads work15:21
tarelerulzI find last.fm better15:21
tbftarelerulz: audio preview seems to remain silent15:21
tbftarelerulz: di.f15:22
tbfdi.fm15:22
tarelerulzThat is odd that is pretty big feature15:22
tarelerulzI am rocking Ubuntu 9.10 and firefox 3.5 and it works fine15:23
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odin_zaheerm, lol re: Nintendo-Investigates-Nokias-Potential-Copyright-Infringement next it will be .... Sony-Investigates-Nokias-Potentia-Copyright-Infringement for allowing their device to play music ... here is a utube of a device playing music, but there is a disclaimer that you must provide your own MP3 files15:28
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jpjokelaodin_: Well it's certain that teosto will complain about that and demand money :P15:29
odin_teosto ?  Tiesto ?15:30
odin_unst unst! unst unst!15:30
jpjokelaAh, not from Finland :)15:30
odin_he dutch guy I think15:31
jpjokelaodin_: Well they represent artists and pay royalties to them, and collect media tax from f.ex. CD's, DVD's etc.15:31
ShapeshifterDid anyone of you n900 owning guys and girls try playing a webradio over GSM/3G and know how long it lasts?15:31
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Stskeepsoh, nokia removed the emulator video15:31
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zaheermnot surprised15:32
pekujagood idea15:32
odin_yep I suspect corporate ass-cleaning15:32
viggii've clearly missed something15:32
odin_zaheerm, you don't look very far away from me (Internet wise) lol15:33
tarelerulzWhat games was being played on n900 ?  really if its super mario brothers . its 20 year old game15:33
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zaheermodin_, yah we share the same isp :)15:33
odin_zaheerm, possible even the same city15:33
odin_zaheerm, maybe the same street15:34
zaheermwell i'm in harrow in north west london15:34
jpjokelatarelerulz: Not the latest one, and many of the old ones have been re-released during the recent years15:34
Shapeshiftermaybe you're the same person even.15:34
hrwbye15:34
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zaheermShapeshifter, i used to have a pc i named odin :)15:34
Shapeshifterso odin gained self conciousness and now wants an n900.15:34
zaheermhe's not getting mine :P15:34
odin_yes I am your computer... I am talking to your though the super-web-inter-highway15:34
pekujais there a Maemo developer oriented channel? I thought it was #maemo-dev but that seems to be empty15:35
Shapeshifterodin_: what's the answer to life, the universe and everthing?15:35
zaheermpekuja, there are different channels for each of the frameworks i think15:35
Shapeshifterpekuja: most of the people here are devs.15:35
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odin_Core Dumped15:35
Shapeshifter^^15:35
pekujaShapeshifter: good point I suppose15:36
jpjokelapekuja: Something wrong with our... "orientation"? :P15:36
pekujaShapeshifter: Maemo is pretty developer friendly to begin with.15:36
pekujajpjokela: no problem :-P15:36
tarelerulzShapeshifter , I know they are on the wii . Still is 20 year old game . Not like they are losing tones of money .  Don't get me wrong I see your point .  Plus Linux is so big , You can't control what everyone does with it. That really is not fiar15:36
odin_Core Dumped .... execution stopped at line 42 .... rebooting15:36
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julianoliverShapeshifter: anyway, the answer to your question is "42".15:37
jpjokelatarelerulz: "being actively sold" can make a big difference in a court case15:37
odin_actually I don't know where I am... the GPS doesn't work15:37
julianoliverodin_: hehe, bet me to it ;)15:37
jpjokelaAlthough I don't think this one would go that far15:37
Shapeshiftertarelerulz: I think you meant someone else.15:37
pekujawhat I was mostly wondering if there are any 3D libraries/engines that currently work well on Maemo/N900?15:38
pekujaIt seems like people are working on an OGLES2 backend for Ogre, but that's still a ways off15:38
odin_well the specs say there is some 3D lib/kit already in the platform15:38
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jpjokelatarelerulz: And only the sky is the limit for amounts you can claim you lost due to actions of others15:38
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odin_I think I shall concentrate my community efforts in the terminal/PuTTY/VNC/rdesktop area15:39
Stskeepsodin_: a good rdesktop could be nice, yeah15:40
pekujaodin_: well OpenGL ES 2.0 works of course15:40
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pekujaodin_: but that's low level15:40
jpjokelapekuja: Isn't OpenGL ES2 a 3D library? :P15:40
tarelerulzI see Nintendo's point trying to stop such ,but really I don't think they should go after Ubuntu if I play use emulators and play old nintendo games.  The only way I can see them have anything to say if they add it in the offical repository or something like that .  Ubuntu has all patent stuff if thirdparty repositorys15:40
convultedHello all. If I have a gtk.Image displaying a pixbuf (which has been loaded from a PNG), can I easily draw a rectangle on top of the PNG?15:40
pekujajpjokela: yes, it's true15:41
pekujajpjokela: I was looking for something higher level :-P15:41
jpjokelapekuja: The idea of OpenGL is that you can code any kind of higher level code on top of it :-P15:41
odin_well rdesktop already exists... so it will be just a UI port of it15:41
pekujajpjokela: sure15:42
odin_also... has OpenSSL the library been ported ?15:42
Stskeepsodin_: duh. part of platform15:42
pekujajpjokela: it's a lot more work to roll my own though :-P15:42
odin_well mozilla uses NSPR15:42
tarelerulzSince Maemo is Linux , you guys ever find flash work on 90% of what you try and not on odd site . Like last.fm media player don't work for me at all15:43
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pekujajpjokela: I've been using the commercial Unity game engine lately, which is a really nice and easy to use higher level engine. I need to ease into the lower level stuff ;-)15:43
pekujajpjokela: not that I haven't done lower level code in the past... but expectations change15:44
odin_tarelerulz, does it require flash 10+ ? as I think its flash9 on meamo15:44
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tarelerulzFlash is such an odd thing .  I have 10 and the site don't work right on my computer either . Nice that flash is not open source so not like you can fix it so it could or get real error15:46
odin_dont worry Silverlight is coming !!!!15:46
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tarelerulzSo what is Siverlight ?  I just thought it was something like flash ,but made by someone else15:47
Ceron^http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1259329330817.jpg anyone know this?15:47
convultedAnyone? Does no one use gtk.Image's? :)15:47
odin_tarelerulz, something like it yep... well basically its "flash meets Java"  but in the Microsoft flavor ..... there is JavaFX on the way but thats going to take a while for Sun to mess up15:48
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sayjavahello guys15:49
odin_tarelerulz, so silverlight is tied to DotNET and probably ActiveX at the moment15:49
sayjavai have a question , is QT officially supported on the maemo platform?15:49
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Stskeepssayjava: yes15:50
tarelerulzI understand the tech reason it might be better ,but  One close source company how is that any different from flash . the reason flash sucks is they don't open the source .  It is either it works or it don't . Been dealing with that for 2 years not much changed15:51
sayjavathanks , so I dont have to stick with gtk+ then15:51
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zaheermsilverlight is not tied to activex15:52
Markus23silverlight is not opensource too15:53
Markus23and there are both open source variants of both flash and silverlight15:53
odin_that is correct, silverlight is not completely opern source15:54
odin_much like DotNET is not completely open source15:54
tarelerulzSome open source is better then nothing .15:54
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odin_the same as the N900 firmware it not completely open source15:55
mikedg-blau.nads!15:55
tarelerulzTo you really think MS will be better by use then flash has done ?15:55
mikedg-blaui love .nads15:55
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jpjokelaAnd afaik, all flash "openness" is 2 (probably more?) reverse-engineered open source decoders15:55
odin_tarelerulz, nope, but it will kick adobe's butt some15:55
AakashADP1mikedg-blau woahhh15:55
AakashADP1woee15:55
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odin_the whole point it to encourage commercial competition, thats the only way thing advance forward...15:56
jpjokelaI thought flash was meant to be open sourced long ago, what happened to that?15:56
odin_Java verses DotNET,  Flash verses Silverlight,  iPhone verses Andriod verses Maemo15:56
SpeedEviljpjokela: the format is - sort-of as I understand it open15:56
AakashADP1the topic lies 'scratchbox + xephyr is not an emu, doeny expect browser or term'15:56
SpeedEviljpjokela: however there is no complete open-source implementation15:56
AakashADP1theres a browser if u install the sdk with GUI installer15:56
odin_Adobe prohibited you from making a "decoder" and "player" but you could make "authoring" tools15:57
SpeedEvilodin_: err - no15:57
odin_but they are coming around to a change of heart.... since Silverlight came around15:57
SpeedEvilodin_: look at gnash15:57
mgedminverses is what you have in poems15:57
mgedminversus is the latin word you're looking for15:57
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odin_sure there are a few project emulating parts of the revenged format, but so what....15:58
tarelerulzFlash has all ways ran up my cpu more then it should .  I tried a html 5 video an only 30% cpu .  flash it like 60% for like one pages with video on it .15:58
AakashADP1does maemo browser support html5?15:59
odin_no the word is "verses" and no I am not speaking latin nor italian strangely15:59
evohello, sometimes my virtual keyboard doesn't popup when I highlight the address input field of microb, especially when there're some specials chars in it, is it normal? TIA15:59
lardmanodin_: no, it's actually versus16:00
Stskeepsevo: report it as a bug?16:00
lardmanassuming you mean this line: Java verses DotNET,  Flash verses Silverlight,  iPhone verses Andriod verses Maemo16:00
odin_ah well then 2 verses 1 must be right, LOL16:00
mgedminmy virutal keyboard often fails to pop up when I try to edit my IM status message16:00
AakashADP1vs THE world16:00
lardmanodin_: :)16:00
AakashADP1odin hahah16:00
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sayjava@tareleruz , 60% you must be on windows16:01
evoStskeeps: ok :)16:01
sayjavaon the mac its about 90%16:01
AakashADP1or osx lol16:01
AakashADP1on a good day16:01
tarelerulzI mean I hope flash having other company fighting them , makes them do something better for Linux .  Simple stuff like youtube works fine ,but there are tone of cool sites that use it .  Chat sites , all sorts of stuff and if feature will work is hit or miss .  It lame all ways upgrading your version just to view youtube or anything else16:02
tarelerulzI am Ubuntu 9.10 and 4 gb of ram .16:02
tarelerulzThe part I hate the most you can't fix it .  It just either works or not16:03
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SpeedEvilSound has always been flaky for me in flash.16:03
SpeedEvilIt sometimes works, it sometimes doesn't.16:03
odin_tarelerulz, yes... more Linux paltform coverage and competition is making Adobe rethink their Linux is a 2nd class citizen stratagy16:03
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tarelerulzFlash just flaky on  Linux . Never running into that on windows at all. Everything seems to work16:03
Stskeepswb qwerty1216:04
qwerty12Thank you, Stskeeps16:04
odin_nah I get IE crashing all the time on windows if I leave it open with flash adverts running on a few tabs16:04
Stskeepsqwerty12: petrovich in extras now?16:04
qwerty12Stskeeps: It is indeed, sir16:04
Stskeepsqwerty12: congrats :)16:05
qwerty12Thanks :)16:05
convultedqwerty12: hello! any experience with gtk.Image?16:06
odin_does threading work on maemo ?  no one did answer my how many cores is it ?  1 ?  what is offloaded ?16:06
qwerty12convulted: Hiya, no, sorry, all I've ever done is add one to a button... :\16:07
convultedqwerty12: damn :) thanks anyway16:07
AakashADP1lol16:07
tarelerulzodin_I hope Linux getting more popular make adobe act right .  Like I said I hope html 5 comes out so no one company control the net that much at all.   So Linux , Windows and mac all have the same net16:07
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convultedqwerty12: (you're my idea of a good hacker so i thought it was worth a shot asking you :)16:07
AakashADP1that will be the day16:07
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odin_tarelerulz, I think everyone non-MS is working that way, all MS are doing is being slow to react/fix/update as IE is not a profit center, but this is keeping back users a little bit16:08
jpjokelaFirst thing I do on every single Firefox installation on any system, is "install FlashBlock plugin" :P16:08
qwerty12jpjokela: AdBlock Plus, man!16:09
Stskeepsqwerty12: a .install that contains a SSU repo and a package that adds it as a trusted domain using hildon-application-manager-config, think that would work?16:09
AakashADP1haha16:09
jpjokelaqwerty12: Thought it blocks just ads? And not "non-ad" flash files?16:09
odin_SSU ?16:09
jpjokelaI prefer having none of them open as default16:09
tarelerulzI think for the most part it will happen .  The world seem to becoming more open . I watching business show . alot of the ideas of open source are being used other places .  Maybe the old way of even having an os at all well go south .  I mean if it becomes about the net it might not matter what os you run ,but what browser you run16:09
qwerty12Stskeeps: Yes, but any chance of getting the package in Extras?16:09
odin_~explain SSU16:09
odin_~school-me-bot16:10
AakashADP1pwnd16:10
qwerty12jpjokela: True, true, but sometimes it's hard to tell what is more annoying nowadays :\16:10
qwerty12~SSU16:10
infobotwell, ssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/SSU16:10
Stskeepsqwerty12: doesn't technically have to be16:10
jpjokelaqwerty12: Of course might be the best to have both16:10
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jpjokelaqwerty12: I don't mean adblock wouldn't be nice, I just personally think that flashblock is even more important16:10
qwerty12jpjokela: *nod* - I actually have both installed :)16:11
odin_ha ha... SSU thats a novel concept for the "Linux" platform, ha ha ha16:11
qwerty12Stskeeps: More exposure that way. The update repo would have to be on another repo, certainly, but the "enabler" package would be awesome to have in Extras16:11
jpjokelaqwerty12: And not only block, it makes it easier to download flash files16:11
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qwerty12Alas, I don't see any SWF worth downloading nowadays but then again I hardly play games... :\16:12
Stskeepsqwerty12: so an enabler package would have to add a repo, and add key i guess.. and then it would appear as an update at some point?16:13
AakashADP1same here16:13
Stskeepsonce HAM checks for update16:13
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Stskeeps(and add package domain)16:13
mgedminwhen will HAM be replaced by BACON?16:13
convultedmgedmin: I heard they will will be combined in SANDWICH16:14
jpjokelaHold-And-Modify :P16:14
qwerty12Stskeeps: Yes... I guess we'd also have to manipulate H-A-M's settings a little; does the SSU repo hold the highest trust level there is?16:14
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Stskeepsqwerty12: hmm, checking16:15
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AakashADP1banana splitz16:16
qwerty12A Freenode speciality16:16
Stskeepsqwerty12: 600 should do according to mvo16:16
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qwerty12Stskeeps: For "our" repo? :)16:17
Stskeepsyeah16:17
qwerty12Ah, that's good16:17
* julianoliver has just packaged libnet and ettercap for Maemo516:17
julianolivertesting on N900 now..16:17
Stskeepsqwerty12: should be fairly trivial in a postinst, shouldn't it?16:18
AakashADP1Cool.16:18
qwerty12Stskeeps: For setting the trust level of the community SSU repo? Sure. It's just the editing of other repositories that scared me a little16:19
Stskeepsqwerty12: ah, don't think we need to do that16:19
Stskeepsso we have steps of jeremiah making a signed repo, a extras-devel diablo package for adding SSU16:19
qwerty12My N800 can be a guinea pig - the thing lies unused16:19
AakashADP1Do you guys work for Nokia? Or are just community  contributors?16:20
StskeepsAakashADP1: a big mix16:20
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qwerty12AakashADP1: Community. I like trolling #maeom16:20
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qwerty12#maemo, even. See? :-)16:20
AakashADP1Ah I see :)16:20
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AakashADP1Haha16:20
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StskeepsAakashADP1: users, developers, community, hired community, subcontractors, subsubcontractors, employees16:21
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julianoliverAakashADP1: i'm an independent developer working in computer vision/AR currently targeting Maemo5.16:21
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AakashADP1Nice16:21
odin_with MMC kernel driver, can you force the erasure of flash blocks ?  i.e. "secure delete" ?16:21
julianoliver(also a fan of Maemo5 more generally)16:21
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SpeedEvilodin_: you can never force anything with MMC devices16:22
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odin_"chaddr +s file.dat"16:22
SpeedEvilodin_: they hide the internal flash structure from the kernel16:22
mgedminalso, how can you be sure other block don't contain copies of your sensitive data?16:22
SpeedEvilodin_: encrypt, and throw away the key16:22
odin_so there is just no way to override that ?16:22
zaheermqwerty12, petrovich is really nice, thanks16:22
SpeedEvilodin_: nope16:22
mgedminthe only way to securely delete things is dropping your N900 into a volcano16:22
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odin_does the phone have some non-flash based NVRAM ?16:23
SpeedEvilodin_: The mmc/sd hardware won't let you access individual blocks - and may have moved your data from a failing block16:23
odin_like EEPROM16:23
qwerty12zaheerm: Cool, thanks. Glad to see zoutube got promoted :)16:23
zaheermqwerty12, it did?16:23
qwerty12zaheerm: Hmm, maybe not. But you have 11 votes =)16:23
zaheermit needs one more vote to hit 1016:23
zaheermoh i do?16:23
odin_no I am thinking through "secure password storage API", but need to store some data somewhere which will be erased when the master key changes16:23
AakashADP1EEPROM, havent heard of that word since working with microcontrollers16:23
zaheermqwerty12, cool, so how does it get into extras then? :)16:24
SpeedEvilodin_: RAM?16:24
SpeedEvilodin_: Oh - you mean for the disk key16:24
odin_so yes can encrypt and throw away the key, by using both a password and a random salt, but it needs to be stored somwhere which has "asured erasure"16:24
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SpeedEvilodin_: Or the encryption key used together with the users secret to form the decryption key, but which the user does not know.16:25
qwerty12zaheerm: You should see a promote button on the interface, now. Press it, wait a while (read: Keep F5'ing maemo.org) to see if it appears in the application list, add screenshots and you're done :)16:25
SpeedEvilodin_: It depends.16:25
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odin_yes... 1 sector of flash as a file is the data, this data is always encrypted with a new random session key everytime it is changed, the session key is in the NVRAM/EEPROM along with something that can be used to verify the key (like a CRC check)16:26
SpeedEvilodin_: I think you are guaranteed to never be able to recover 512 bytes that you overwrite through the normal SD/MMC interface16:26
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zaheermqwerty12, it shows 0 out of 10 now when i look at the page :(16:26
SpeedEvilodin_: however - if the user decaps the SD/MMC devices, and reads the flash, they may be able to in some small fraction of cases.16:26
mgedminodin_, the upcoming Maemo security infrastructure has facilities for secure encrypted storage of user data16:27
SpeedEvilodin_: Or if they know the magic incantation per manufacturer to read the flash 'raw' - which possibly exists.16:27
odin_SpeedEvil, I don't understand the "overwrite" and the "never be able to recover", the info needs to be non-volatile and stored (and therefore recoveryable)16:27
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SpeedEvilodin_: If you overwrite a 512 byte sector holding the key.16:27
odin_SpeedEvil, yes sure, they can read the flash raw, but.. if a random session key is used they wont have the session key to decode it16:27
lbtheh .... 2.6.32 kernel contributions....   Nokia241921.6%16:27
zaheermqwerty12, and now back to 11/10 :)16:27
qwerty12zaheerm: Behind a proxy, or something? 'Cause I promise http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/zoutube/0.1-18/ is showing 11 :)16:27
lbtMicrosoft196961.3%16:27
qwerty12zaheerm: Heh16:27
zaheermmust be temporary midgard bug or something16:28
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Shapeshifterlbt: where do you have that list from16:28
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suihkulokkilbt: bleh, contributing under staging/ shouldn't count :P16:29
odin_mgedmin, this "Maemo security infrastrcture" is binary blob of open-source code ?  (can it be audited) ?16:29
SpeedEvilodin_: I mean - wear leveling and fault detection internal to the device may prevent you from erasing blocks if you are willing to go into dissasembly.16:29
AakashADP1yeah zaheerm16:29
AakashADP111/10 :)16:29
SpeedEvilodin_: or rather - if your opponent is willing to dissasemble the device - spending some thousands.16:29
mgedminodin_, IIRC it was going to be open-sourced16:29
lbtShapeshifter: LWN.... subscribe ;)16:29
viqAh, the above conversation strikes a topic that interests me - is there a way for full disk encryption on the N900 ?16:30
mgedminodin_, check http://wiki.maemo.org/MaemoSecurity16:30
odin_SpeedEvil, ok I understand that point... so make the design so it doesn't matter, i.e. a random session key for every change which is stored in "non-volatile and asured erasure memory place"16:30
lbtsuihkulokki: true.... but it's interesting that they *only just* pipped Microsoft16:30
Shapeshifterlbt: mh. never read it.16:30
mgedminits more or less vaporware right now, afaiu16:30
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lbtShapeshifter: I like it a lot16:31
ShapeshifterI'm not much of a reader I admit.16:31
suihkulokkilbt: a codedrop vs fixes and changes in existing code16:31
SpeedEvilodin_: You're far less likely to be able to recover several keys.16:31
lbtsuihkulokki: what would numbers be without spin?16:31
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odin_SpeedEvil, the user provides a key or pass phrase and such, this along with the session key is needed for perform decryption, then to verify all went well a checksum/hash (like 16 bits), this also allows verification of passphrase16:32
SpeedEvilodin_: I would - if I was attempting this - use several 512 byte keys that are XOR'd together or something - as the 'real' key.16:32
SpeedEvilodin_: wiping all of them is almost certain to wipe at least one - even at the lowest level of the device.16:32
odin_SpeedEvil, opps s/16/160/ ^^16:32
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Stskeepshey GA16:33
suihkulokkilbt: same 1.9% still for nokia, but no ms code to see16:33
odin_SpeedEvil, no it does not matter that you can recovery an OLD flash block using a logic analyser directly on the flash chip16:33
odin_SpeedEvil, because you can't recovery the session key used to encrypt it, was was at least 160 bits long itself thats good enoough security16:33
SpeedEvilodin_: If you can recover the session key because that has not been deleted as you thought though.16:34
odin_SpeedEvil, then only thing you can have a hope of recoverying is the current flash block being actively used to contain the data16:34
odin_SpeedEvil, but thats part of my spec... the session key is in an "assured erasure non-volatile ram" location16:34
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Shapeshifterlbt: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/publications/whowriteslinux.pdf found this. probably something similar to what LWM released, I guess.16:34
odin_SpeedEvil, but you only need to find ~40 bytes of space somewhere to do it16:34
Shapeshifterprobably older, nokia only has 0.6 on that lit16:35
Shapeshifterlist16:35
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lbtHey, cool.... #codes *can* be dialed :)     from the cli: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5357#c1716:35
povbotBug 5357: Does not accept GSM (USSD) Codes starting with *#16:35
SpeedEvilodin_: I don't think there is a user-accessible device that simply performs that function, unless you assume that there is no way to read the flash raw - which there may be - manufacturer debug codes from the flash controller driver maker.16:35
SpeedEvilodin_: If you discount that as an attack, then that's fine.16:35
lbtShapeshifter: yes, LWN tracks it on a per-kernel-release basis16:36
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Shapeshifter^^16:36
lbtit's interesting to see how linux is changing in the commercial world16:36
odin_SpeedEvil,  I am presuming that anyone wanting to try to get your information can take physical postession of the device and "try their best" which includes taking it apart and hookig wires upto the flash directly16:36
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SpeedEvilodin_: using one block of SD/mmc, and erasing it that is.16:36
SpeedEvilodin_: Ah. Ok16:36
TomaszDalright, please test my ac3-support package, it's in extras-devel, report back if it can be promoted to testing16:36
sgbirchwhat is the sources.list entry to install n810 programs from extras-testing?16:37
SpeedEvilodin_: In that case, your best bet is probably to spread the key across n blocks, and xor it to make the real key.16:37
zaheermTomaszD, which gstreamer plugin does it provide?16:37
SpeedEvilodin_: Erasing n blocks is likely to erase or overwrite at least one of the key blocks.16:37
TomaszDzaheerm, it provides just the necessary decoding library16:38
TomaszDI believe it's liba5216:38
TomaszDbut I might be wrong about the deps, so I need someone to test on a clean device16:38
zaheermTomaszD, so you need to provide gstreamer0.10-a52dec16:38
odin_SpeedEvil, just seems a wate when just 40bytes of EEPROM Will do... the USB port on the bottom, is it a fully function USB ?  but USB is not peer to peer is it ?16:38
odin_SpeedEvil, i.e. can I attach some kind of credit card reader to it ?16:38
SpeedEvilodin_: no, it is not a host-mode USB16:38
zaheermTomaszD, or add it to an existing packasge16:38
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SpeedEvilodin_: Or at least not simply.16:38
SpeedEvilodin_: Use a 2D barcode.16:39
zaheermqwerty12, where is the page to upload screenshots?16:39
TomaszDzaheerm, there is no such package when you search16:39
SpeedEvilodin_: On a bit of rice paper, and eat the rice paper if you want to destroy it.16:39
zaheermTomaszD, yes but i am willing to make one for you :)16:39
TomaszDzaheerm, what I know is that it works for me, I need reports16:39
odin_SpeedEvil, lol 2D barcodes are "something you have" you still need "something you know" (i.e. a smart card PIN)16:39
TomaszDzaheerm, but is it necessary for anything?16:39
zaheermTomaszD, it works for you in maemo's media player?16:39
TomaszD:)16:39
TomaszDyes16:39
TomaszDI register the mimetype with the package obviously16:40
SpeedEvilodin_: I mean the 2D barcode is the equivalent of the key stored on the device16:40
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TomaszDjust like ogg-support does16:40
SpeedEvilodin_: It is required - along with the user password - to decrypt16:40
zaheermTomaszD, do you have gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg installed?16:40
odin_SpeedEvil, yes the "something you have" component16:40
TomaszDzaheerm, yes16:41
zaheermTomaszD, you have files that are just ac3 or you're talking about files that have ac3 in a container?16:41
qwerty12zaheerm: When it appears on http://maemo.org/; sign in; click the zoutube link; then, in the big floaty grey toolbar, click Page->Edit and the section for uploading screenshots will be at the bottom16:41
zaheermTomaszD, so gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg already provides ffdec_ac3 gstreamer element16:41
SpeedEvilodin_: There even exist secure instantly wipable optical key storage devices. http://www.amazon.co.uk/SecureKey/dp/B000E69YJI16:41
odin_SpeedEvil, it gets a bit blury when you don't separate it from where the data you are protecting is, i.e. you are meant to keep the 3 parts separeted16:41
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TomaszDzaheerm, this just for the latter scenario16:41
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zaheermTomaszD, then you donm't need to register any mimetype16:41
odin_SpeedEvil, how do I audit those ?  if anything I want a bluetooth smart card reader16:42
SpeedEvilodin_: Data - on device - barcode - on neck-chain or ..., PIN - in memory16:42
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odin_SpeedEvil, its really getting away from just having to supply the something you know to the N900 to unlock a keystore16:43
zaheermTomaszD, just by having gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg installed any files you have that contain ac3 that didn't play the audio in the media player will now play, no mimetype registration necessary16:43
SpeedEvilodin_: fair enough.16:43
TomaszDzaheerm, so it just might be better to have a package that depends on gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg that is named "More codecs" or something like that16:44
sgbirchhunting around .. it looks like extras-testing is only maemo5, was that not available on diablo?16:44
odin_SpeedEvil, knowing that is the N900 fell into the wrong hands there is no way to recovery anything, unless they could crack the current key, i.e. they must not be able to use an old password from last week to crack a left-over-mmc block still not yet erased16:44
zaheermTomaszD, yah we should do something like that, a meta package to get as many codecs and containers supported as we can16:44
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SpeedEvilodin_: you're using one-time passwords?16:44
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qwerty12sgbirch: Correct. People could just promote to Extras when the package maintainer (or anyone else, for that matter) wanted it in there for Diablo & Chinook16:45
zaheermTomaszD, so flv, mkv for containers not currently supported by default, and deps on all the gstreamer packages16:45
TomaszDzaheerm, is there a matroska demuxer somewhere there?16:45
Zerojayn900anyone with direct access to the repos awake?16:45
Zerojayn900emergency situation16:45
TomaszDzaheerm, it is not true that you can play video with ac-3 audio without registering the mimetype and just having the ffmpeg package, just tested16:45
sgbirchqwerty12: oh .. ok.  So the process now it devel -> testing -> extras (N900)?16:45
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Zerojayn900x-fade ping16:46
qwerty12sgbirch: Yep :)16:46
StskeepsZerojayn900: x-fade's still on holiday.16:46
Stskeepsjeremiah: ^16:46
zaheermTomaszD, what is the mimetype you are registering?16:46
TomaszDzaheerm, -c Videos -d audio/ac316:46
sgbirchqwerty12: is there a n900 emulator?16:47
TomaszDoops, this is the removal command16:47
TomaszDzaheerm, -c Videos -a audio/ac316:47
TomaszD:)16:47
kalikianasgbirch, you don't need an emulator16:47
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zaheermTomaszD, you have a sample file with ac3 somewhere downloadable ?16:47
kalikianause scratchbox16:47
StskeepsZerojayn900: without having direct access, is it anything i could prod people about?16:47
Zerojayn900anyway to remove my packages from the repos without them?16:47
zaheermtho i could create one easily i guess :)16:47
TomaszDzaheerm, not really, I'm using a bluray rip of a movie, avi with ac3 sound, tells me know that codec unsupported16:47
sgbirchkalikiana: can you run n900 programs on scratchbox?16:47
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SpeedEvilodin_: I want a nice tiny wearable linux box for this function.16:48
TomaszDzaheerm, it's an easy process, I can do it, I already have the base16:48
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zaheermTomaszD, i think it is more that the media daemons need restarting than the mimetype16:48
SpeedEvilodin_: with the ability to dump all keys in hardware16:48
odin_SpeedEvil, well yes/no ... the security problem is "loosing possession of the device, the N900" there should be no way to recovery the data that is protected without knowing the human-passphrase you need to key in.  This includes surviving a recent passphase change, say last week you change passphrase because someone found it out, then it must be impossble to know that later to decode a previous code of the protected block16:48
kalikianasgbirch, yep. except a few things like bluetooth it's like a n900 running on a normal i386 box16:48
zaheermTomaszD, the mimetype is only needed so it appears in the media player under videos section16:48
StskeepsZerojayn900: you got involved in the nintendo mess?16:48
SpeedEvilodin_: I have a tentative design for ~$100 - but that's a bit much.16:48
zaheermTomaszD, and for that it needs just the avi's mimetype16:48
TomaszDzaheerm, no, without it it's not recognised.16:48
zaheermTomaszD, ok i'm going to test it, give me a few minutes :)16:49
Zerojayn900stskeeps is this mess more than just my wallpapers? emulators too?16:49
TomaszDzaheerm, the avi file is recognised by default and indexed, it will not play however, because ac3 is not registered16:49
TomaszDeven if you install the ffmpeg package16:49
SpeedEvilodin_: Ah. You've also then got the problem of someone imaging the device, and brute forcing the keyphrase. So it's got to use quite a lot of CPU16:49
zaheermTomaszD, ok going to test that theory here16:49
StskeepsZerojayn900: i don't think wallpapers was part of it initially16:49
TomaszDzaheerm, ok16:49
odin_oppps. my last words were not very clear.... it must be impossible after a passphrase compromise to be able to use the information to decrypted an older block (which has not been erased yet)16:49
TomaszDI'm going to replace the dependency16:49
StskeepsZerojayn900: it was just about nokia publishing that stuff in their video from conversations.nokia.com (emulator)16:49
SpeedEvilodin_: the multiple xor'd keys are probably good enough - I don't know enought about the exact design of the ewear leveling algorightms to say for absolute certain though.16:50
odin_SpeedEvil,  I dont care about brute forcing my 200bit key, go ahead and do that, thats not in the "security problem domain" trying to be solved16:50
javispedroah, a mess. how cool.16:50
SpeedEvilodin_: the human key16:50
Stskeepsjavispedro: well they pulled the conversations.nokia.com video :P16:50
Zerojayn900and my wallpapers will be too.16:51
javispedroStskeeps: well it always seemed to me that was a bit... adventurous to say the least.16:51
StskeepsZerojayn900: from maemo.org? your choice or forced on you?16:51
odin_SpeedEvil,  I take it as a given that for the lifetime of the data's usefulness a 200bit key is going to be strong enough to not be concerned with brute forcing16:51
StskeepsZerojayn900: but anyway, i think jeremiah might be able to help you out, when he's around16:52
SpeedEvilodin_: you ahve a 200 bit human enterable key?16:52
Robot101Zerojayn900: dude, if nokia needed to stop shipping something off their servers, they'd have deleted it already :P16:52
StskeepsRobot101: there's a big issue in deleting stuff off maemo.org as it shows there's no seperation, though16:52
Robot101thats "legal call big boss call sysadmin types rm" territory16:52
odin_SpeedEvil, what I am trying to protect is a compromised passphrase, which is then changed, but then someone steals the device (knowing its flash based and knowing about wear leveling) and then uses the now learned compromised passphrase to try to decode an OLD version of the protected data block16:53
Zerojayn900robot101 tell that to nokia then.16:53
Robot101Stskeeps: even as an ISP, they have to comply with appropriate copyright law if sent the right legal stuff16:53
Zerojayn900we're scrambling to find someone to do it.16:53
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Robot101if this is a precaution and they're asking folks to do it voluntarily, then I guess its less urgent :)16:54
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odin_SpeedEvil, (200bit key) yes I do, but thats not the real issue here16:54
Robot101(or, they've lost the root password or some relevant person is on vacation :D)16:54
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StskeepsZerojayn900: best thing is really for tero to call jeremiah i guess, since jeremiah isn't answering here16:55
zaheermTomaszD, i have no ac3 mimetype added, my test file plays fine16:55
zaheermTomaszD, it is mpeg4 video, ac3 audio in avi16:55
kalikianaRobot101, if it's precaution, I think it wouldn't be wise to wait for the big admin to enforce it16:55
TomaszDzaheerm, that's cool, so you just installed gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg?16:55
kalikianait's not a nice situation but you probably don't want to start a fight over it16:56
zaheermTomaszD, yep, the mimetype registration is just for containers16:56
Zerojayn900stskeeps yeah, emails went out to both.16:56
Zerojayn900nervous that i could be in shit here.16:56
Robot101kalikiana: sure, I'm just saying if it was a "holy fucking crap" moment, they'd already have pulled the plug until they could find someone with the right access :)16:56
TomaszDzaheerm, does ffmpeg provide the matroska muxer? How can I find out?16:56
Zerojayn900it is a holy crap moment.16:56
TomaszD*demuxer16:56
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zaheermTomaszD, no it is provided by gstreamer0.10-plugins-good-extra i believe16:57
kalikianaRobot101, maybe the one with the plugin took it with him in vacation. so I'm happy they didn't shut it off temporarily16:57
qwerty12Jaffa: ping16:57
Stskeepsandre__: got jeremiah's # anywhere?16:58
zaheermTomaszD, matroska requires the mimetype registration because it is a container so its mimetype is what the gstreamer typefinder will find16:58
andre__Stskeeps, with # you mean.... phone number? or his bug ID? :-P16:59
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Stskeepsandre__: phone number16:59
andre__Stskeeps, no, sorry16:59
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Stskeepsk16:59
TomaszDzaheerm, is there another container that would need registering for the media player? I can work on a metapackage during the weekend16:59
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zaheermTomaszD, well transport stream video/mpegts17:00
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zaheermTomaszD, also gstreamer0.10-flv provides flvdemux and already does the mimetype stuff so you can dep on that in the meta17:01
TomaszDzaheerm, go on, making notes :)17:01
TomaszDso I need gstreamer0.10-plugins-good-extra, gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg, register matroska and the mpeg2 transport stream17:02
TomaszDwhat about rmvb?17:02
TomaszDthat seems popular17:02
zaheermwhat is rmvb?17:02
TomaszDreal media variable bitrate17:02
Ceron^ http://bambuser.com/channel/hessuj/broadcast/34372517:03
TomaszDthere should be a demuxer, my desktop plays them fine with gstreamer17:03
zaheermyah its a variant of the real demuxer17:03
danielwilmshi...ferenc tries to get the file from the extras repo17:03
Stskeepsk17:03
zaheermTomaszD, application/vnd.rn-realmedia is the mimetype17:03
Stskeepsi prodded jeremiah on sms just now :P he's one of those rare people that has his contact details public17:04
TomaszDzaheerm, so uh, this one needs registering, as it's a container, not a file format?17:04
jeremiahhello17:04
Stskeepslo17:04
zaheermTomaszD, yes it needs registering because it's a container not a codec that is not there without a container17:04
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jeremiahIs there something people want to remove?17:04
zaheermTomaszD, however you'll need a package that contains rmdemux, i can work on that17:05
jeremiahClassic gaming wallpapers?17:05
StskeepsZerojayn900, danielwilms: ^17:05
TomaszDfrom devel-extras jeremiah? you have that power? :)17:05
danielwilmsjeremiah...could you take that over from ferenc??17:05
jeremiahI'll remove it. :)17:05
jeremiahsure17:05
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danielwilmsjeremiah...thx17:05
TomaszDjeremiah, please remove ac3-support, it will be superesed with a better solution17:06
qwerty12jeremiah only uses his power for evil purposes17:06
jeremiahIs it diablo or fremantle?17:06
TomaszDfremantle17:06
jeremiahqwerty12: :P17:06
zaheermTomaszD, you can leave it to rot in extras-devel :)17:06
TomaszDzaheerm, nooo! I don't want to see it17:06
sgbirchis the N900 UI developed with Qt or gtk?17:06
RST38hjeremiah: Could you lower the voting threshold already?17:06
zaheermTomaszD, fair enough :)17:06
RST38hjeremiah: Hasn't it been agreed weeks ago?17:06
TomaszDthere is also duplication when it comes to "Recorder" and "Maemo Recorder", the latter one needs to be removed jeremiah17:06
TomaszDin fremantle ^17:07
lardmanwhat we need is the ability to prune our own uploads17:07
qwerty12Hear, hear, lardman17:07
TomaszDalso MaStory superseds a Maemo-branded thing... Maemo something... I forget17:07
zaheermmaemo-wordpy17:08
TomaszDright17:08
TomaszDso maemo-wordpy and maemo recorder need to go17:08
jeremiahOr just need renaming17:08
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kalikianasgbirch, the launcher, switcher and windowing are clutter, the apps are gtk17:08
TomaszDjeremiah, no, they already have their renamed versions in the reop17:08
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TomaszD*repo17:08
jeremiahOh, okay - then I will just remove them17:09
jeremiahWhat is the name of the class gaming wallpaper stuff?17:09
sgbirchkalikiana: ok. I gather N900+1 will be Qt though, is that correct?17:09
jeremiahoh, classic-gaming-wallpaper :P17:09
TomaszDjeremiah, also, this http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/liqcontrolpanel/0.1.2/17:10
TomaszDthe author himself wants it removed :)17:10
kalikianasgbirch, yes, Nokia plans to use Qt primarily and Gtk as a community feature17:10
TomaszDac3-support, maemo-wordpy, maemo-recorder, liqcontrolpanel is the full list I think jeremiah17:10
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javispedroheh, "The Independent" seems to be the first one that got "the mess"'s story.17:13
jeremiahOkay - I have removed the packages and the source from the repos, the Packages file should get updated soon17:13
zaheermthe independent is actually the best paper in the UK17:13
TomaszDjeremiah, thanks17:14
jeremiahSure thing17:14
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qwerty12zaheerm++17:14
qwerty12It's almost certain you won't see it in The Sun...17:14
zaheerm:)17:14
javispedrocause it seems the Mess was started by a UK PR17:15
danielwilmsjeremiah thanks a lot! and have a nice and relaxed weekend now everyone ;)17:15
Stskeepsjavispedro: nah.. there was an article before that i read last night17:15
zaheermthe sun might put a N900 shipping thread transcript :)17:15
qwerty12You too, danielwilms; bye17:15
qwerty12Sounds fitting :p17:15
jeremiahdanielwilms: np, and good advice!17:15
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jeremiahoh qwerty1217:15
jeremiahI want you to volunteer17:16
jeremiahfor a sekkrit project17:16
jeremiahI want to put togther a "Packaging Strike Force"17:16
jeremiahA team to help people package stuff17:16
jeremiahThere won't be much glory, and the work will be hard,17:17
jeremiahBut you'll have that satisfied feeling at the end of the day.17:17
lardmanassuming you don't lose a leg due to enemy action, etc.17:18
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qwerty12But being in #maemo already gives me that warm, fuzzy feeling! :-)17:18
jeremiahThis will be warmer and fuzzier17:18
zaheermhe gets cuddly toys?17:18
jeremiahUmm, no.17:19
jeremiahBut he does get to SAVE THE FREE WORLD17:19
jeremiahby being a member of the Maemo Packaging Team! Or Package Strike Force!17:19
qwerty12That's easy: Take weapon of choice and shoot anyone the FSF hates17:19
zaheermlike nokia? :)17:20
qwerty12Oooh, good point. danielwilms may find his weekend not so nice and relaxing...17:21
jeremiahheh17:21
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wazdOh my god17:22
wazdDDP answered me17:22
Stskeepswow.17:22
javispedrohey, at least a bit of good news :)17:22
lardmandid the clouds part?17:22
Stskeepsand they say "YOU RUSSIAN! YOU BAD! GO AWAY!"?17:22
Stskeeps:P17:22
jeremiahIsn't it spelled OMG?17:22
wazdStskeeps: exactly :D17:22
lardmanthunderbolt?17:22
wazdStskeeps: Please note though!  We are not allowed to ship any devices to Russia.17:22
wazdNOTE THOUGH, BASTARD!17:23
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suihkulokki"plz give us back the land you stole from us in ww2 and we'll give you a n900" :P17:23
qwerty12wazd: Gonna get it shipped to Finland and go there, James Bond style? =)17:23
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wazdqwerty12: gonna capture some more Finlad, like Stalin, bwahahaha!17:23
qwerty12Haha17:24
Stskeepstaking parts of finland, one n900 at a time..17:24
Stskeeps:P17:24
* lardman visualises wazd entering the harbour in a minisub17:24
tekojowazd contact qgil directly, he can do something about it17:24
qwerty12wazd: Go to Karelia and put up a ton of Russian flags :p17:24
RST38hwazd: Shit, just order to some European address. Order to my US address.17:24
RST38hwazd: That will be delayed until January at least though17:24
suihkulokkiorder to guim guils work address and ask him to send it to you when recieving17:25
RST38hwhich probably won't work17:25
* Flandry was going to comment on the N900 and miniusb before rereading that17:25
lardmanlol17:26
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Myrttiqwerty12: funny that, the Mainila shots were about 70 years ago, to day17:28
Myrtti"let's start WW3!"17:28
Myrttioh, it was yesterday17:28
Myrttihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila17:28
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qwerty12Heh, maybe not the wisest of plans, then... :\17:28
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* javispedro laughs at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=39615217:29
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Zerojayn900lol17:30
Zerojayn900worst timing in the world.17:30
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