| kalikiana | it's as if Microsoft were to sell a washing machine called windows 8 | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Dantonic | Hey anyone here use VNCviewer from an N8X0? | 00:00 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: i do not like the car analogy. Updating software on a computer is easy and free. In the end, n810 is just a general purpose embedded computer, i can't see what makes it so different that one might want to not update it ever. | 00:00 |
| vasily_pupkin | I try | 00:00 |
| vasily_pupkin | totally unusable :] | 00:00 |
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| lardman | PaulFertser: yes, I agree with you about it being possible, but it's about who provides the labour really | 00:01 |
| PaulFertser | kalikiana: that's Openmoko Inc., not the (TM). The phone devices were called gta01 and gta02 (aka Neo1973 and FreeRunner). | 00:01 |
| Dantonic | johnx, are you here? | 00:01 |
| lcuk | Dantonic, yeah | 00:01 |
| Dantonic | oh hi lcuk! | 00:01 |
| Dantonic | hey I was wondering... I'm vncing into my ubuntu 9.10 desktop... but from the N800 when I'm viewing the desktop I can click and move the mouse around but the changes do not display in the N800 | 00:02 |
| *** dolphin has quit IRC | 00:02 | |
| Dantonic | the changes happen on the desktop only | 00:02 |
| kalikiana | PaulFertser, maybe their marketing was bad then. I'm not following that closely and what I said is what I understood from the announcements | 00:02 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: that's the difference between what nokia does and what debian and other nice folks do. Nokia aims to support only their current device. Other folks try to support all the devices. Do you choose "happiness for everybody" or "happiness for my customer"? Nokia apparently does the latter. | 00:02 |
| lcuk | Dantonic, you logged into the same session with your server? | 00:02 |
| lardman | Nokia are a commercial entity though | 00:02 |
| lardman | why would they provide support forever? | 00:03 |
| PaulFertser | Being commercial doesn't mean they shouldn't try to make everybody happy | 00:03 |
| lardman | I mean they could do, but the device would then cost quite a lot more | 00:03 |
| kalikiana | PaulFertser, you are a damn idealist :-) | 00:03 |
| PaulFertser | LOL, n900 already costs a fortune. | 00:03 |
| PaulFertser | kalikiana: indeed | 00:03 |
| Dantonic | lcuk, excuse me, I'm pretty new at vnc... I have a vnc server session setup in ubuntu 9.10 it's the "Vino" built in remote desktop program. then I simply log into the desktop's IP from the N800 | 00:03 |
| mikhas | PaulFertser, being commercial means exactly that, to choose a target audicene and make them happy | 00:03 |
| lardman | absolutely, try, and they are doing so, making it as easy as possible within the constraints of a commercial world, for us to develop the platform | 00:04 |
| kalikiana | PaulFertser, I'm sorry to say that reality doesn't work like that | 00:04 |
| mikhas | only happy customers are loyal customers etc pp | 00:04 |
| lcuk | Dantonic, dunno, but linux has many sessions and if your vnc server is connected to the wrong one then it will show its own instance | 00:04 |
| PaulFertser | kalikiana: that's why i prefer to distort reality in my mind to see it the other way :P | 00:04 |
| Dantonic | lcuk, so I have to loginto the session in the server as well? not sure how that works... I thin kvino just sets it up and you just logon no? | 00:04 |
| w00t | and I thought only Steve Jobs had the reality distortion field effect | 00:04 |
| kalikiana | :-P | 00:04 |
| Quibus | I do hope SDL is available for Maemo... but I suppose it is. | 00:05 |
| lcuk | Dantonic, i dunno i dont use kvino or anything on linux side yet | 00:05 |
| Dantonic | lcuk, what do you use? do you have Ubuntu? and what vnc server do you use? | 00:05 |
| Dantonic | lcuk, ok | 00:05 |
| lcuk | i vnc to windows | 00:05 |
| lardman | Quibus: it is | 00:05 |
| Dantonic | gotcha | 00:05 |
| Dantonic | well thank you anyway lcuk | 00:05 |
| kalikiana | Quibus, yep it is | 00:05 |
| PaulFertser | mikhas: being commercial means earning enough money to survive. I think nokia can pretty much afford contributing to the "world" more. | 00:05 |
| Quibus | we do most platform abstraction via SDL | 00:05 |
| moo__ | PaulFertser: n900 is cheaper than iphone (sim free)? | 00:06 |
| mikhas | to survive? no. it means to make as much profit as possible | 00:06 |
| GAN900 | moo__, yes. | 00:06 |
| moo__ | well, iphone costs super fortune so that's not much :) | 00:06 |
| GAN900 | iPhone is about $700 unlocked. | 00:06 |
| PaulFertser | mikhas: then your definition of commercial is a definition of a definetely evil thing. I wouldn't advocate that. | 00:06 |
| mikhas | profit is evil? | 00:06 |
| w00t | welcome to capitalism, enjoy your stay | 00:06 |
| mikhas | oh dear ... | 00:06 |
| GAN900 | mikhas, apparently. | 00:06 |
| VDVsx | GAN900, can you buy one unlocked ? | 00:06 |
| lcuk | in some countries yeah | 00:07 |
| SpeedEvil | PaulFertser: If your company is not maximising profits, and is not a privately held one, the shareholders can force the board to change its policy. | 00:07 |
| GAN900 | VDVsx, depends on your locale. | 00:07 |
| PaulFertser | mikhas: aiming for as much profit as possible is evil, of course. | 00:07 |
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| lardman | not really | 00:07 |
| * qwerty12_N900 gets the Sickle and Hammer out | 00:07 | |
| lcuk | PaulFertser, depends if its your company or not | 00:07 |
| PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: that means evil shareholders but who advocates evil? | 00:07 |
| lardman | though as much profit as possible and needlessly killing daisies would be, yes | 00:07 |
| crashanddie | w00t w00t | 00:07 |
| GAN900 | PaulFerster, companies that do that and aren't monopolies quickly go outkof business. | 00:07 |
| w00t | qwerty12_N900: comerade! | 00:08 |
| lardman | tovarish? | 00:08 |
| crashanddie | SpeedEvil, not really, the board can elect a new CEO who is more in line with their view | 00:08 |
| * qwerty12_N900 shoots w00t with an AK-47 | 00:08 | |
| * VDVsx gets his AK-47 | 00:08 | |
| lardman | though the board all all aiming to be chairman, so they probably have the same views anyway | 00:08 |
| GAN900 | Capitalism is what got us to the ridiculously high standard of living we enjoy today. | 00:08 |
| PaulFertser | GAN900: i'm not sure, i think usually they find some niche market to survive. | 00:08 |
| ali1234 | hmm some voice i don't recognise keeps calling me and i don't know if they're hanging up because they got the wrong number or because n900 phone app is broken :) | 00:09 |
| GAN900 | STFU, qwerty12, you poser. :P | 00:09 |
| crashanddie | SpeedEvil, when a privately held company is in really bad shape, usually the board elects someone who will be chairholder and CEO, even though that is quite frowned upon by most employees and unions | 00:09 |
| qwerty12_N900 | GAN900: Stop ruining the USSR-tactics re-enactment | 00:09 |
| w00t | :-( | 00:10 |
| crashanddie | the most common case is that the CEO then becomes a kind of "visionary", but the real pilot is some other VP who gets exec powers | 00:10 |
| * lcuk goes coding | 00:10 | |
| PaulFertser | GAN900: (high standard of living capitalist way) i started to doubt it's what makes humanity better quite some ago | 00:10 |
| Dantonic | lcuk, I guess My problem is a Ubuntu 9.10 bug that has to do with amd64 architecture :( https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/vino/+bug/445813 | 00:11 |
| qwerty12_N900 | w00t: Fine... Some vodka instead? | 00:11 |
| lardman | I'm afraid I'm a devout anti-left-wingist | 00:11 |
| w00t | qwerty12_N900: now you're talking | 00:11 |
| * VDVsx wonders why the council chairman doesn't receives thousands of euros like the other chairs :( | 00:11 | |
| w00t | qwerty12_N900: double, please | 00:11 |
| crashanddie | quick vote: who is for the complete removal of usenet? | 00:11 |
| GAN900 | qwerty12, yeah, well, I actually own one. :P And it's not illegal here. | 00:11 |
| lardman | VDVsx: how do you know they didn't in the past? ;) | 00:11 |
| w00t | VDVsx: be more assertive! | 00:11 |
| SpeedEvil | crashanddie: I'm for the complete removal of all web-forums. | 00:12 |
| lardman | GAN900: you own an AK-47? | 00:12 |
| PaulFertser | SpeedEvil++ | 00:12 |
| SpeedEvil | crashanddie: usenet is far better in many ways. | 00:12 |
| VDVsx | lardman, ahah, that should explain GAN900 's Ferrari | 00:12 |
| lcuk | VDVsx, we can get you thousands of euros to be chairs, but you have to be an actual chairperson then | 00:12 |
| crashanddie | SpeedEvil, doesn't answer the question, against I guess? | 00:12 |
| Shapeshifter | I'm for the removal of email. | 00:12 |
| GAN900 | VDVsx, I forgot to tell you, Jaffa and I abolished the salary before we left. :P | 00:12 |
| lardman | and ex-Soviet weapons stash from the sounds of it ;) | 00:12 |
| SpeedEvil | crashanddie: You can have hundreds of different clients, and if a server goes down, no content is lost | 00:12 |
| SpeedEvil | crashanddie: not, of course. | 00:12 |
| GAN900 | lardman, they're like a dime a dozen here. | 00:13 |
| lcuk | can we just have a nuclear winter on the internet | 00:13 |
| VDVsx | bastards!!! :P | 00:13 |
| lcuk | months and months without cats | 00:13 |
| lardman | GAN900: hmm | 00:13 |
| crashanddie | SpeedEvil, I'm a moderator a couple of newsgroups on fr.* hierarchy, the question came up earlier today, though question to be honest | 00:13 |
| sp3000 | timeless_mbp: none of what? | 00:13 |
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| lcuk | is extras-devel totally vanished | 00:14 |
| lcuk | or just badly wounded in a ditch somewhere | 00:14 |
| crashanddie | SpeedEvil, we've seen a *massive* decrease in traffic over the past couple of years. Usually I'd moderate around 20-30 messages a day, with an average of 500 messages a day on the newsgroup I moderate, however these days, we're lucky if we get 5 messages a day that are not spam | 00:14 |
| SpeedEvil | crashanddie: yes. | 00:14 |
| SpeedEvil | crashanddie: that's a problem. | 00:14 |
| lardman | lcuk: less than a c for an Ak.... | 00:14 |
| SpeedEvil | crashanddie: seen the same | 00:14 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: if you do not like John Lennon's songs, what do you like then? | 00:14 |
| crashanddie | SpeedEvil, spam however, seems never to decrease :D | 00:15 |
| crashanddie | PaulFertser, John Lemon | 00:15 |
| SpeedEvil | crashanddie: usenet never recovered from Sep 93. | 00:15 |
| crashanddie | PaulFertser, I think he would have been a real icon in pop culture if he had a cool name, and I dunno, maybe died tragically | 00:15 |
| lardman | PaulFertser: difference between the songs and the singer ;) | 00:15 |
| lcuk | Oct09er :'( | 00:16 |
| * crashanddie gave away his copy of assassin's creed 2 today | 00:16 | |
| lardman | you leftie! | 00:16 |
| lardman | or perhaps lefty | 00:16 |
| crashanddie | lardman, feck off, torrie | 00:16 |
| crashanddie | -e | 00:16 |
| lardman | lol | 00:17 |
| crashanddie | you troubled my spelling! | 00:17 |
| pupnik | lefties arent promoting personal charity | 00:17 |
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| lardman | that's the left-wing government's messing with the education system :p | 00:17 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: but really, do not you enjoy when people help each other, doing something good together or whatever, not thinking about the money? It happens all the time in fact, isn't it good? | 00:17 |
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| lardman | yes, am quite happy about it, but that doesn't blind me to the fact that people still need money | 00:18 |
| lcuk | PaulFertser, its great, but if helping others impedes on my ability to feed family | 00:18 |
| lcuk | same for everyone i think | 00:18 |
| jebbajeb | the problem is when you have free/open communities, they get highjacked by idiots who take up everyone's time. | 00:18 |
| pupnik | put food on your family | 00:18 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: they need money indeed but it looks logical that given current consumeristic society many people want more money than they actually need to feel happy. | 00:18 |
| kalikiana | PaulFertser, Call me schizophrenic but I'm an altrusit in my spare time work and still I do contract work for an evil company | 00:18 |
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| kalikiana | So maybe I should hate myself for half of the day | 00:19 |
| crashanddie | PaulFertser, same old discussion really | 00:19 |
| lardman | PaulFertser: yeah, that is perhaps true | 00:19 |
| PaulFertser | kalikiana: i do contract work for a stupid company, not really a difference, so i'm on a same boat it seems :) | 00:19 |
| kalikiana | PaulFertser, aaaaha. you admitted it :-) | 00:19 |
| lardman | I just sit here hating DBus docs | 00:19 |
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| lcuk | lol | 00:20 |
| crashanddie | PaulFertser, I've seen people in mozambique or congo who lived in utmost misery compared to our standards, however were a million times happier than most of us will ever be | 00:20 |
| PaulFertser | crashanddie: same old life, nothing's changing... | 00:20 |
| lcuk | you connected in #dbus yet? | 00:20 |
| lardman | no | 00:20 |
| lcuk | boo | 00:20 |
| lardman | they'd shout at me ;) | 00:20 |
| kalikiana | don't go there or we won't see you again | 00:20 |
| crashanddie | PaulFertser, does that mean I'd abandon my lifestyle and go live in a shithole (well, worse than south east london)? Hell no | 00:20 |
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| lcuk | of course, but thats half the fun | 00:20 |
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| lardman | /join #dbus, why are your docs so crappy? | 00:20 |
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| crashanddie | http://www.flickr.com/photos/slauwers/4136332461/sizes/l/ | 00:21 |
| kalikiana | ^^ I say 5 minutes. Who bets more than 5 minutes? | 00:21 |
| crashanddie | lardman, i'll do that :) | 00:21 |
| PaulFertser | crashanddie: but it gives you an idea that happiness is not about consuming "goods" advertised on TV, and i think that's an important point many people miss. If they didn't, the world would be a better place to live, i guess. | 00:21 |
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| lardman | am beginning to think that perhaps DBus signals are not really supposed to carry information | 00:21 |
| lcuk | shhh lardman, its not that bad, you might even recognise a few people ;) | 00:21 |
| qwerty12_N900 | crashanddie: *cough* .au *cough*. Damn, although I only ever met you once, I'll miss you | 00:21 |
| lcuk | icertainly do | 00:21 |
| crashanddie | everyone in #dbus? | 00:21 |
| crashanddie | Ready for the shitstorm? | 00:21 |
| lardman | no no | 00:22 |
| crashanddie | no no what? | 00:22 |
| crashanddie | kalikiana, you background listener! | 00:22 |
| kalikiana | crashanddie, hihihi | 00:22 |
| crashanddie | lardman, not joining? | 00:22 |
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| lardman | no to abusing dbusites | 00:22 |
| lardman | ah go on then :) | 00:23 |
| crashanddie | lardman, too late | 00:23 |
| crashanddie | [22:23] <crashanddie> I just wondered, why on earth are your docs so bloody crappy? | 00:23 |
| crashanddie | [22:23] * lardman (n=simon@Maemo/community/contributor/lardman) has joined #dbus | 00:23 |
| crashanddie | lardman, gimme some arguments if they ask questions | 00:24 |
| lcuk | crashanddie, the idea isnt to troll, its to get help for lardman | 00:24 |
| crashanddie | well I can just say, "The reason for this question is that we got poor old lardman here, the one who just joined the channel, and he's just getting absolutely no where with your shite documentation." | 00:24 |
| hexa | worst way to get help ever... | 00:25 |
| crashanddie | I guess it's a good thing I don't have the maemo hostname then :P | 00:25 |
| lardman | hmm, not going to be very useful | 00:25 |
| qwerty12_N900 | hexa: http://bash.org/?152037 | 00:26 |
| * lardman resigns himself to looking for more examples | 00:26 | |
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| hexa | qwerty12_N900, lol I see .. point taken | 00:27 |
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| lardman | qwerty12_N900: lol | 00:29 |
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| lardman | lbt: not what you expected ;) | 00:32 |
| lardman | I think crashanddie has shocked all those poor people into silence | 00:32 |
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| lardman | not in a good way | 00:32 |
| AakashPatel | lolll | 00:32 |
| lbt | wasn't sure if there was any chat - dbus is tricky but the docs are ...... there | 00:32 |
| lbt | I got it working by reading them ... | 00:33 |
| lardman | yeah, I'm getting there | 00:33 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: (your excellent presentation) goals presented seem to be exactly what i assumed nokia should be doing from the very beginning. | 00:33 |
| lardman | my crappy docs comment was mainly tongue in cheek | 00:33 |
| lardman | could do with some more examples really | 00:34 |
| ali1234 | i found dbus is a lot easier to deal with in python, when you don't have to worry about glib typing... | 00:34 |
| Quibus | OK, virtual Debian system is installing SDK... | 00:34 |
| lardman | yeah, I want to use it from Python in the end, but first of all have to put the C stuff in place | 00:34 |
| ali1234 | Quibus: why not just grab the already configured virtual sdk image? | 00:34 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: thank you, and that's what we try to do i Mer. | 00:34 |
| Stskeeps | in | 00:34 |
| Quibus | ali1234: now you tell me | 00:34 |
| * Stskeeps is really bothered by the amount of people having bricked devices | 00:35 | |
| * lbt thinks the problem is not so much dbus as glib | 00:35 | |
| ali1234 | Quibus: sorry. and i don't have a link. but i know it exists... | 00:35 |
| lbt | dbus in python or c++ is piss easy ;) | 00:35 |
| qwerty12_N900 | Use libdbus, then, and not dbus-glib. *shrug* | 00:35 |
| lardman | lbt: yeah, well I've already ranted about that this month | 00:35 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: Q5/7s? or N900s | 00:35 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt: n900s | 00:35 |
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| lbt | I've heard a bit ... | 00:35 |
| lbt | really bricked or ... | 00:36 |
| PaulFertser | How can one brick an n900? Isn't there a ROM BL of some kind? | 00:36 |
| lbt | I caught in passing that the flasher seems to let people enter kernel clis | 00:36 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: there's cold flashing if you have a flashing jig and warm flashing with NOL | 00:37 |
| Stskeeps | O | 00:37 |
| lardman | actually the problem is Google not pointing me to the right docs | 00:37 |
| lbt | I assumed it was dodgy scripts/bootmenu level and (understandable) user incompetence | 00:37 |
| ali1234 | can we has "how to build your own jig" docs please? | 00:37 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt: no, this is normal people getting interrupted NSUs flashing | 00:37 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: what is flashing jig? JTAG adaptor? | 00:37 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: same as on n8x0 as i assume | 00:38 |
| Stskeeps | i | 00:38 |
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| Stskeeps | lbt: and end up with unflashable devices | 00:38 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: so does n8x0 or n900 boot? Is there a BL mask-programmed in SoC or what? What is running when you use "flasher"? | 00:39 |
| Quibus | RST38h: not sure I should ask, but what is the status of those system ROMs you include with fMSX? Do you have official permission? Or is it something you don't care about? | 00:39 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: i only know what happens in generic terms, sorry | 00:39 |
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| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: it's a bit ironic how many nokia SW devs are actually reachable by e-mail or even on irc and _no_ hardware devs seem to participate at all. | 00:40 |
| ljp | participate in what? | 00:41 |
| ali1234 | PaulFertser: depends what you mean by hardware devs.... there are certainly kernel devs on the linux-omap, and they would probably know how the flasher works | 00:41 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: keep in mind maemo 'hw' and 'sw' was seperated before | 00:41 |
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| PaulFertser | ljp: in helping end-users and userspace developers? | 00:42 |
| ali1234 | PaulFertser: i mean bootloader and other low level stuff | 00:42 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: there was a discussion on opening flasher and noone really took up the gauntlet in community | 00:42 |
| PaulFertser | ali1234: i'm afraid the most interesting question about why n900 lacks usb host is still unanswered there. | 00:43 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: USB specification. at least with OTG. connector is removed. USB host is still not sure | 00:43 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: why not just release the source? Is it tainted? | 00:43 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: you see, even you're not sure about one of the most important hardware parts. | 00:43 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: i'm SW, not HW. | 00:44 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 00:44 |
| Stskeeps | as in, my primary area of interest | 00:44 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: there's no reason for open sourcing something that's just going to gather dust | 00:44 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: yes, but if it was easy for you, you'd have probably asked about the details long time ago. | 00:44 |
| * lbt has seen Stskeeps and he's definitely SW | 00:44 | |
| w00t | I suspect it's a case of not having a reason to ask | 00:44 |
| w00t | given that ..he's sw | 00:45 |
| Stskeeps | waste of time that can be better used on open sourcing more relevant things | 00:45 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 00:45 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: there's. Probably one day a guy will want to use flasher on his ARM or MIPS or IA64 machine and he'll clean it up. | 00:45 |
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| lcuk | lardman, dbus issue. the order of the args will be filo or fifo wont it | 00:45 |
| lcuk | it wont be random (or id not expect it to be) | 00:45 |
| lardman | PaulFertser: the hw is by definition otg | 00:45 |
| ali1234 | reversing the flasher is trivial | 00:45 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: flasher seems to be such a small and not really complex app that opensourcing it shouldn't take much manpower, uploading a source tarball is rarely a challenge. | 00:45 |
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| Shapeshifter | I just realised that the n900 has no competition. | 00:46 |
| lardman | PaulFertser: and the reason afaiu for it not supporting otg host mode is to do with the charging over usb | 00:46 |
| ali1234 | but i suspect the flasher doesn't talk to bootloader directly, hence the seemingly "bricked" phones | 00:46 |
| Shapeshifter | It's made for a specific market, and for that market, there's no other device other then this. | 00:46 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: OMAP SoC yes, but does it have enough additional circuity, e.g. to provide current to external devices? | 00:46 |
| lardman | lcuk: yeah I'm guessing that's the case | 00:46 |
| lardman | PaulFertser: I'm not sure it's even wired up to allow it atm | 00:47 |
| lcuk | it might be worth assuming one way will work and if it fails invert it | 00:47 |
| Quibus | good night folks | 00:47 |
| lardman | lcuk: one will be a string, one an int, so no worries, was just wondering | 00:47 |
| lardman | night Quibus | 00:47 |
| PaulFertser | lardman: that's the problem. It's like anyone's wondering but nobody knows. That's why i say hw guys are not participating. | 00:47 |
| lcuk | yeah i know | 00:47 |
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| ali1234 | well, maybe when people actually have purchased their own n900, they will take it apart and just look for themselves, how usb is wired up | 00:48 |
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| lardman | PaulFertser: well we could always just try it and see | 00:48 |
| ali1234 | but i'm not taking this loaner apart | 00:48 |
| PaulFertser | ali1234: great plan! and stupid since somebody has schematics for sure, why not just ask them. | 00:48 |
| ali1234 | same goes for bootloader console | 00:48 |
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| ali1234 | PaulFertser: schematics is really irrelevant. people have reversed more boring hardware with less help from manufacturers before | 00:49 |
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| PaulFertser | ali1234: reversing something when you should be able to just ask? | 00:49 |
| ali1234 | sure | 00:50 |
| ali1234 | being able to ask is the exception not the rule | 00:50 |
| ali1234 | and if asking doesn't work, we're no worse off than with any other hardware | 00:50 |
| ali1234 | much of which has been figured out anyway | 00:50 |
| lcuk | PaulFertser, which maemo device have you got? | 00:50 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: did you see the q5 though? | 00:51 |
| PaulFertser | lcuk: my friend's got n810, and i'm a freerunner user. | 00:51 |
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| Stskeeps | that may actually qualify with your beliefs | 00:51 |
| lcuk | ahhh | 00:51 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 00:51 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: not yet | 00:51 |
| SpeedEvil | I plan to try the USB host thing prolly monday | 00:52 |
| lcuk | i tohught you had a device | 00:52 |
| SpeedEvil | if it arrives. | 00:52 |
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| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: you should.. | 00:52 |
| AakashPatel | does the chat on maemo support yahoo and facebook? | 00:52 |
| SpeedEvil | See http://xkcd.com/281/ for more info. | 00:52 |
| lardman | ab: ping | 00:52 |
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| ali1234 | SpeedEvil: i already tried manually switching usb to host mode through sysfs... didn't work | 00:52 |
| PaulFertser | lcuk: my friend does. And btw power consumption is mad insane with 2.6.30, is it supposed to be that way or just some .config option missing? | 00:52 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: even if it's chinese 'quality', it's one of the most hackable devices i've seen. :P | 00:52 |
| ali1234 | but it might be disabled in the kernel or something | 00:52 |
| * lardman wonders if ab has his name as a keyword, must come up a lot | 00:52 | |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: they removed CPU frequency scaling for N8x0 didn't they, in oma2? | 00:53 |
| SpeedEvil | Interesting. | 00:53 |
| Stskeeps | omap2 | 00:53 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: also wifi driver doesn't have PSM | 00:53 |
| SpeedEvil | ali1234: with external power applied to the USB device? | 00:53 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: i'm not following it closely... | 00:53 |
| ali1234 | SpeedEvil: no but it should detect the root hub even if nothing is plugged... it didn't | 00:53 |
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| lcuk | PaulFertser, power consumption of what? n810? that already gets uptime rated in weeks | 00:53 |
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| SpeedEvil | ali1234: ah | 00:53 |
| lardman | ali1234: talking about N900? Root hub is there | 00:53 |
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| ali1234 | hmm ok, i did it wrong then | 00:54 |
| PaulFertser | lcuk: yes, on n810 with 2.6.30-rc6-something kernel | 00:54 |
| SpeedEvil | My n900 is in belgium. (according to UPS) | 00:54 |
| lcuk | on n810 with stock | 00:54 |
| SpeedEvil | Shipping from Rotterdam apparantly. | 00:54 |
| lcuk | i have no idea about a version, whatever the latest stable thing was | 00:54 |
| lcuk | that just worked | 00:54 |
| ali1234 | lardman: are you sure though? because you can put omap-ochi into host mode and get a root hub, but with 0 ports... | 00:54 |
| lcuk | im not a rice racer v kernels | 00:54 |
| AakashPatel | SpeedEvil, to the US?? | 00:54 |
| PaulFertser | lcuk: that works indeed | 00:54 |
| SpeedEvil | AakashPatel: UK | 00:55 |
| AakashPatel | ah | 00:55 |
| ali1234 | i can't really remember what happened, and i dont have the right cables to test properly... | 00:55 |
| SpeedEvil | AakashPatel: I hope. | 00:55 |
| AakashPatel | lol | 00:55 |
| Oli`` | Seems unlikely to me but is it possible to plug USB devices into an N900 using some sort of weirdy USB gender switcher? | 00:55 |
| ali1234 | Oli``: that's generally the idea, yeah | 00:55 |
| ali1234 | Oli``: we don't know yet if it is possible | 00:55 |
| PaulFertser | Plug yes. Use -- noone knows :) | 00:55 |
| ali1234 | it doesn't work "out of the box" we know that | 00:56 |
| Oli`` | ali1234: whoa USB gener-switchers exist and work? | 00:56 |
| lardman | ali1234: I just saw it the other day while looking at the dmesg output | 00:56 |
| SpeedEvil | Oli``: not really | 00:56 |
| PaulFertser | Oli``: no | 00:56 |
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| SpeedEvil | Oli``: They require the USB port to support host mode | 00:56 |
| lcuk | switching the gender of the plug does not change the messages sent out | 00:56 |
| lardman | ali1234: but certainly check someone else's output to be sure | 00:56 |
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| kalikiana | Oli``, on the n810 it worked, but with micro-usb it's not the same | 00:57 |
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| Oli`` | Is it a software thing? Ie can it be made to work like that in time? | 00:57 |
| ali1234 | lardman: well i successfully got USB host mode working on my htc wizard running linux.... it doesn't officially support OTG or supply power, but works anyway | 00:57 |
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| kalikiana | Oli``, that's the unanswered question :) | 00:57 |
| ali1234 | lardman: but it has miniusb, i don't have the right cable to try it on n900... or the ability to compile a kernel yet | 00:57 |
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| PaulFertser | BTW, does n900 kernel export battery state via power_supply subsystem like all decent devices do? | 00:58 |
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| pupnik | a few days after flashing i now have huge delays entering text into google (and other webform) searches | 00:59 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: BME's still around | 00:59 |
| PaulFertser | Or is it the same "we made a plugin to hal, so you now must use a hal-aware app to get the info"? | 00:59 |
| ali1234 | it boils down to whether they used an external transceiver or not. you can tell that from looking at kernel source, or just taking the damn thing apart... | 00:59 |
| lardman | ali1234: I thought this was a case of not being wired up, but I was always planning to try and see if it was just a software disable | 00:59 |
| SpeedEvil | ali1234: external transciever is vanisingly unlikely. | 00:59 |
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| SpeedEvil | IMO | 00:59 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Documentation/BME_Protocol may still apply | 00:59 |
| ali1234 | lardman: the 5th OTG pin is "not wired up" but you dont need it for host mode | 01:00 |
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| ali1234 | lardman: same as on all previous NIT | 01:00 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: that's hm unfortunate and doesn't really align with "this time nokia does proper integration with mainline kernel". | 01:00 |
| * w00t sighs | 01:00 | |
| ali1234 | if they used an internal transceiver there is no way to block host mode, cos it's the same damn pins | 01:00 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: battery management differentation yadda yadda..at least all kernel modules are open source | 01:00 |
| ali1234 | now it might be really flaky due to not having the right pull-ups... | 01:01 |
| ali1234 | s/an/the/ | 01:01 |
| SpeedEvil | ali1234: yeah - but that's probably fixable extenrally. | 01:01 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: hehe, microkernel with propriatary daemons is not exactly what linux is about :) | 01:01 |
| SpeedEvil | Well - you have root. | 01:01 |
| lardman | hmm, well my dbus-ified code compiled ok | 01:01 |
| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: i'm personally a L4 fan. | 01:01 |
| SpeedEvil | strace and gdb and friends... | 01:01 |
| SpeedEvil | Does the BM | 01:01 |
| PaulFertser | Stskeeps: i wished i could work at some university on an l4 research... | 01:01 |
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| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: my own view is that battery management should be either in kernel space or virtualized outside the kernel. | 01:03 |
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| Stskeeps | PaulFertser: reality isn't like this in nokia right now and we'll just have to live with it | 01:04 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 01:04 |
| SpeedEvil | My own view is that root should be able to do everything but expode the battery. | 01:04 |
| w00t | psh | 01:04 |
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| w00t | what if I want to explode my battery? :-) | 01:04 |
| SpeedEvil | The hardware should enforce 4.2V and 2.5V limits, and leave the rest to open-source drivers. | 01:04 |
| w00t | n900: terrorism edition | 01:04 |
| PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: (explode the battery) | 01:05 |
| lcuk | whats the root command to expode the battery? | 01:05 |
| PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: i've some interesting info for you | 01:05 |
| * javispedro arrives just in time for late night "is not really oss" show | 01:05 | |
| w00t | javispedro: want some popcorn? | 01:05 |
| PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/battery/PACK950925.pdf | 01:05 |
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| SpeedEvil | w00t: I have no problem with that - but the problem is that 12yo's may be tricked into running crap | 01:05 |
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| PaulFertser | SpeedEvil: read about how it was tested. | 01:06 |
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| * SpeedEvil is testing some li-ion cells he accidentally charged to 4.3V | 01:06 | |
| SpeedEvil | (oops) | 01:06 |
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| PaulFertser | javispedro: you're too late, anti-capitalism flame is already over here | 01:06 |
| javispedro | :( | 01:07 |
| DocScrutinizer | who summoned me?? | 01:07 |
| PaulFertser | javispedro: and i've never defended "oss", i'm all about "free software". "oss" is about the technology, "free software" is about living happily helping good people. | 01:07 |
| PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: Yo :) | 01:07 |
| javispedro | PaulFertser: good, cause it's neither free software nor oss. | 01:07 |
| PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: i'm trying to bust a myth about exploding LiIon batteries. :) | 01:08 |
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| DocScrutinizer | ahh I see. How to explode li-ion cell. My favourite ;-D | 01:08 |
| SpeedEvil | PaulFertser: neat | 01:08 |
| SpeedEvil | PaulFertser: I've exploded them. It's fun! | 01:09 |
| PaulFertser | DocScrutinizer: nokia is still all about "managing batteries is uber-sensitive and hard, we're keeping the stuff proprietary for the sake of your balls". | 01:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | safety requirements for Li-Ion are rather harsh, to get any battery to market | 01:09 |
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| SpeedEvil | Managing batteries for optimal battery life now - that's a slightly harder problem. | 01:09 |
| DocScrutinizer | PaulFertser: lol | 01:09 |
| SpeedEvil | But not really that hard. | 01:09 |
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| DocScrutinizer | hard enough to make fatalities really rare XD | 01:10 |
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| DocScrutinizer | oops, missed a line | 01:10 |
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| DocScrutinizer | SpeedEvil: I think that's more of an issue. Nokia doesn't like to get flooded with warranty requests they have to reject due to "possible mistreatment caused by jacked firmware" | 01:12 |
| SpeedEvil | yeah | 01:12 |
| DocScrutinizer | s/jack/hack | 01:12 |
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| DocScrutinizer | see it this way: most mobile device manufs even place humidity sensor patches inside their devices nowadays, and refuse any warranty if you coughed while bat compartment was open | 01:14 |
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| SpeedEvil | One reason I'm purchasing accidental damage cover for my n900 before it leaves the house. | 01:15 |
| lardman | has anyone used phonegap? | 01:15 |
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| crashanddie | what the fuck | 01:24 |
| crashanddie | question 15 out of 15, for 1 million pounds at wwtbam | 01:24 |
| crashanddie | "A number one followed by one hundred zeros is known by what name?" A Googol, B Megatron, C Gigabit, D Nanomole | 01:25 |
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| crashanddie | that's like the easiest bloody question ever | 01:25 |
| Klowner | it's quite obvious what is ISN'T | 01:25 |
| Klowner | yay deduction | 01:25 |
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| crashanddie | well, even that, but Google quite popularised what "Googol" was | 01:25 |
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| Klowner | I dunno, I'm sure a lot of people would be like "hahah, they misspelled google!" | 01:26 |
| Klowner | "google is a search engine, it must be ananomole" | 01:27 |
| SpeedEvil | ... | 01:27 |
| SpeedEvil | 6.26*10^-17? | 01:27 |
| lardman | the wonders of ieee754 | 01:28 |
| javispedro | 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 | 01:28 |
| lardman | javispedro: go for a googolplex | 01:29 |
| lardman | use pastebin tho! | 01:29 |
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| javispedro | 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 | 01:30 |
| javispedro | 0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 | 01:30 |
| javispedro | ... :) | 01:30 |
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| lardman | this then: | 01:31 |
| lardman | 100 | 01:31 |
| lardman | 10 | 01:31 |
| lardman | 10 | 01:31 |
| zash | >9k | 01:32 |
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| SpeedEvil | googool! | 01:33 |
| b-man17 | lol | 01:33 |
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| type_t | lets talk maemo now.. | 01:35 |
| lardman | go for it | 01:35 |
| javispedro | when is the n900 released? | 01:36 |
| Macer | damn the girl in V is so damn hot | 01:36 |
| Macer | the blonde one | 01:36 |
| Macer | she just made the list of 5 | 01:36 |
| SpeedEvil | http://s2.b3ta.com/host/creative/13/1258995948/7up.gif | 01:36 |
| SpeedEvil | :) | 01:36 |
| type_t | what sizes of manufacurer models of flash are fast? | 01:37 |
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| AakashPatel | How many nokia employees are in this channel? | 01:37 |
| type_t | that made no sense. | 01:37 |
| AakashPatel | Uh | 01:38 |
| AakashPatel | what? | 01:38 |
| AakashPatel | yeah it did | 01:38 |
| AakashPatel | How many...nokia employees...are in this channel | 01:38 |
| SpeedEvil | type_t: what do you mean | 01:38 |
| type_t | nokia doestn waste time in here this is no Job! | 01:38 |
| SpeedEvil | type_t: many makers produce various fast flashes. | 01:38 |
| AakashPatel | Haha in #android google employees always are there | 01:38 |
| AakashPatel | So was jsut wondering if its the same here :) | 01:39 |
| SpeedEvil | type_t: or do you mean specific interfaces of flash - like SD or ... | 01:39 |
| frals | you know ur at a good pub when someone mistakes a 1 for a 9 and someone exclaims "well, its only one bit difference", right? | 01:39 |
| w00t | they're likely lurking | 01:39 |
| SpeedEvil | There is not an official nokia presence here. | 01:39 |
| javispedro | AakashPatel: it's post midnight in finland | 01:39 |
| w00t | but what he said | 01:39 |
| type_t | yes SpeeEvil and size matters ..ofcourse Size matters if you catch my drift..:p | 01:39 |
| Macer | V is the bomb. :) | 01:39 |
| Macer | awesome show | 01:39 |
| AakashPatel | javispedro, thats a good point | 01:39 |
| AakashPatel | lol | 01:39 |
| AakashPatel | Macer, really? | 01:40 |
| AakashPatel | looks stupid to me hah | 01:40 |
| * javispedro ponders doing something evil, like installing a symbian sdk | 01:40 | |
| AakashPatel | (all i've seen is the commericals) | 01:40 |
| AakashPatel | commercials* | 01:40 |
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| kalikiana | AakashPatel, they are here now and then, but you wouldn't find them wearing a big label :-) | 01:42 |
| Macer | AakashPatel: hell yeah | 01:42 |
| Macer | just because Laura Vandervoort is so hot haha | 01:42 |
| AakashPatel | kalikiana, haha okay | 01:42 |
| Macer | damn. there are a lot of hot ass actresses from canada | 01:42 |
| Macer | i think i need to go to ontario | 01:42 |
| AakashPatel | Uh | 01:43 |
| AakashPatel | Macer, its boring there | 01:43 |
| AakashPatel | haha | 01:43 |
| * kalikiana prefers arses over asses. | 01:43 | |
| Macer | http://osck.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/itb2-0002.jpg | 01:43 |
| type_t | modeling is a gateway to pron. yeah . | 01:43 |
| AakashPatel | kalikiana, nice arse | 01:43 |
| SpeedEvil | type_t: Not always. | 01:43 |
| AakashPatel | Macer, holy shit | 01:44 |
| Macer | AakashPatel: good. maybe the hot women future actresses need a bad inner city urban american youth | 01:44 |
| SpeedEvil | type_t: Hypersonic gas dynamic modeling rarely is. | 01:44 |
| Macer | AakashPatel: told you. she's hot man | 01:44 |
| Macer | haha | 01:44 |
| SpeedEvil | Sammich, Stat! | 01:44 |
| AakashPatel | Macer, Got that right o.o | 01:44 |
| Macer | morena baccrain is pretty hot too. she was the prostitute in firefly | 01:44 |
| Macer | she is the V leader in V :) | 01:44 |
| frals | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=35204, loving this op | 01:44 |
| AakashPatel | Woah taht chick with the brown hair in the commericals? | 01:45 |
| Macer | yeah | 01:45 |
| Macer | she was the firefly prostitute :) | 01:45 |
| lcuk | frals, hi | 01:45 |
| AakashPatel | :0 | 01:45 |
| frals | lcuk, hi! | 01:45 |
| Macer | the dude who was the firefly pilot was in V for a couple of episodes | 01:45 |
| Macer | i think science fiction actors all hang out in the same circles or something | 01:46 |
| Macer | they are always all on the same shows | 01:46 |
| Macer | like they move here and there... but you'll always catch one guest appearing almost all the time | 01:46 |
| type_t | shit attracts flies!.. | 01:47 |
| Macer | i loved the old V :) classic | 01:47 |
| type_t | opss did i write that. yeahhh.. | 01:47 |
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| * SpeedEvil eats a mouse. | 01:48 | |
| crashanddie | lardman, we get a reply! wooooooooo | 01:49 |
| frals | wishes the obsession with java in his uni would end so he could do some c-programming before graduating :< | 01:49 |
| frals | /me ;o | 01:49 |
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| crashanddie | frals, java programming is a good skill to have, depending on the industry you're aiming at | 01:49 |
| lcuk | frales, hows mms coming on, are you near point where UX might be considered | 01:49 |
| AakashPatel | mmm java | 01:49 |
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| lcuk | or still ironing out technicals | 01:50 |
| AakashPatel | i needa learn some C for maemo :/ | 01:50 |
| AakashPatel | frals, you're workin on MMS? | 01:50 |
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| lardman | does anyone know if the hildonmime uir handler will automatically open the browser for an http:// link, or will it look at the file at that link? | 01:50 |
| frals | lcuk: well, the techincal *might* be working, depending if this python libs i got is working like i think, then its just the UX left, but i have a feeling it wont work :D | 01:50 |
| lcuk | i dont mind it not working | 01:51 |
| lcuk | but theres the maemo long weekend coming up | 01:51 |
| lcuk | when some of nokias best ux people will be together | 01:51 |
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| frals | i got the api for wappush from a really kind nokian (and thanks to qgil for mentioning it @ the office) | 01:51 |
| AakashPatel | what's UX stand for | 01:51 |
| lcuk | and i thought it might be good to hash out some ux concepts | 01:51 |
| lcuk | user experience | 01:51 |
| frals | true, i figured there are better projects to put that effort on atm as this mms hasnt progressed as far as other projects | 01:52 |
| lcuk | and since folks from conversations ui and other major areas will be tehre | 01:52 |
| lcuk | ok, if its not ready thats cool | 01:52 |
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| lardman | frals: hey, I'm planning on hildon mime sending mms: uris to the mms program what/when ever it appears! | 01:53 |
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| frals | crashanddie: yes java is quite nice, but while looking for a "graduate work" (not sure of the english term, swedish term is "exjobb", last thing i do before graduating) is all looking for c/c++ ;( | 01:53 |
| lcuk | o_O didnt know transmission client was built into ubuntu by default | 01:54 |
| lcuk | thats clever | 01:54 |
| crashanddie | lcuk, transmission's performance is shit though | 01:54 |
| crashanddie | frals, the important thing is concepts | 01:54 |
| lcuk | i can get my new ikea catalog without installing other stuff | 01:54 |
| lcuk | doesnt look bad performance here | 01:54 |
| lcuk | whats wrong with it? | 01:54 |
| crashanddie | frals, after that, switching to another language is easy peasy, you just need to learn the syntax, but logic remains the same really | 01:55 |
| frals | yeah, got plenty of that, had a "dynamic pl" course where we had to learn python/ruby, and its really fast to learn a new language once you got the basics | 01:55 |
| crashanddie | lcuk, dunno, just very slow for me | 01:55 |
| crashanddie | lcuk, compared to utorrent through wine | 01:55 |
| lcuk | meh, worksforme | 01:55 |
| javispedro | oh | 01:55 |
| frals | lardman: im slightly intoxicated and not a native speaker of english, could you rephrase that? ;-) | 01:55 |
| javispedro | utorrent through wine was deadly slow here :S | 01:55 |
| frals | what ive seen (on torrentsites) utorrent+wine >>>> transmission | 01:56 |
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| lcuk | anyone want a brew? | 01:56 |
| SpeedEvil | mldonkey works for me | 01:56 |
| javispedro | oh, they're still alive? :) | 01:56 |
| lcuk | torrents depend on more than the client | 01:56 |
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| crashanddie | I had a torrent running through transmission, for 2 weeks it finished 20% | 01:58 |
| crashanddie | switched it over to uTorrent, finished it in 2 days | 01:58 |
| frals | anyway thanks for the heads up lcuk but its too far off for worrying about ux atm :) | 01:58 |
| julianoliver | crashanddie: deluge is pretty good i find. | 01:58 |
| crashanddie | (well, it was 18gig, admittedly) | 01:58 |
| lcuk | crashanddie, thats a big ikea catalog? were you getting the entire historical versions? | 01:59 |
| crashanddie | lcuk, ? | 01:59 |
| crashanddie | lcuk, very big ikea catalog | 02:00 |
| frals | its common knowledge the only thing you get through torrents is the ikea catalog ;-) | 02:00 |
| crashanddie | multiple catalogues at once actually | 02:00 |
| crashanddie | I wanted to have the different seasons, see if their product changed a lot over time | 02:00 |
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| lcuk | i often find reviewing the first year of catalogs is enough to know if i need to download the other intermediate years | 02:01 |
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| javispedro | "In terms of publishing quantity, the catalogue has surpassed the Bible as the most published work[..." | 02:02 |
| SpeedEvil | In the beginning was the word. And the word was AllenKey. | 02:03 |
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| * javispedro reads about IKEA catalog porn and realizes why everybody wants those catalogs so badly | 02:05 | |
| * javispedro notes we now have a spanish thread in tmo | 02:07 | |
| crashanddie | javispedro, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOx9uQ4cuJk | 02:08 |
| Arkenoi | how much does docs2go cost? the "buy" link is broken (epic fail) | 02:08 |
| frals | i feel sorry for the mfe dev posting on talk and who got overwhelmed with the same question over and over | 02:09 |
| Arkenoi | if it is $10 i'd proably buy it, if it's $50+ it is damn too much for a stupid viewer | 02:09 |
| espadav8_L_ | i just read that the n900 isn't going to be released in Oz :( | 02:09 |
| Arkenoi | frals: wow, any news on mfe? | 02:09 |
| javispedro | DataViz is not a cheap company | 02:09 |
| frals | Arkenoi: just reading through http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=35136 | 02:10 |
| kynky | how do you use function keys in terminal on n900 ? | 02:10 |
| kynky | like f1 f2 etc | 02:11 |
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| lardman | can I do strstr(p,'\n')? | 02:14 |
| julianoliver | i wonder what on earth Engadget reviewer Thomas Ricker was referring to when he said: "This Cortex-A8 phone with 32GB of on-board storage is ripe with potential and the perfect holiday gift for grandma as long as she's comfortable dropping into the X Terminal for the occasional "rm -R /home/user/.microfeed" command" | 02:14 |
| * AakashPatel goes to read a C++ book | 02:14 | |
| lardman | in C | 02:15 |
| AakashPatel | maemo lets you use C/C++ right? | 02:15 |
| lardman | yeah | 02:15 |
| AakashPatel | coolio | 02:15 |
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| pupnik_ | kynky: good question for dosbox users too | 02:15 |
| Arkenoi | julianoliver, *lol* exactly | 02:16 |
| javispedro | julianoliver: engadget review? | 02:16 |
| Arkenoi | julianoliver, it is a wonderful thing but selling it to joe average user is suicide | 02:16 |
| julianoliver | javispedro: yes. it seems some reviews are enjoying beating up the N900. | 02:16 |
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| AakashPatel | pow pow | 02:16 |
| julianoliver | Arkenoi: something of an exaggeration in the above case no? | 02:16 |
| kynky | pupnik_, maybe answer is xmodmap, just was hopingit was something default | 02:17 |
| javispedro | pupnik_: if you use my patched dosbox and nokia.sys function keys should be Chr+Q (F1) , Chr+W(F2)... | 02:17 |
| * julianoliver gets back on with some ARMEL target fun. | 02:17 | |
| kynky | chr ? | 02:17 |
| pupnik_ | nice javispedro! will that get into package? | 02:18 |
| javispedro | aw yes, this is n810 | 02:18 |
| pupnik_ | k | 02:18 |
| javispedro | julianoliver: if there's a engadget review, I want URL. | 02:19 |
| * kalikiana wants a modmap for faster accent typing | 02:19 | |
| lardman | hmm, does application manager no longer handle .install as a uri type? | 02:19 |
| kynky | i chr a special software button on dosbox ? | 02:19 |
| Arkenoi | julianoliver, kind of. but i've already got home file system mounted r/o because of interrupted file operation and reboot. as there is no fsck in startup scripts to handle that, end user solution would be reformat internal memory.. if he even manages to diagnose it properly :-/ | 02:19 |
| javispedro | kynky: it is when you use my dosbox build | 02:20 |
| kalikiana | kynky, chr is a hardware key on the n810 | 02:20 |
| javispedro | ah, that. | 02:20 |
| javispedro | ignore me and listen to kalikiana :) | 02:20 |
| kynky | so no easy way other than xmodmap to use f9 key in xterm (its handy in htop) | 02:21 |
| Arkenoi | is there any good (ur just usable) pgp gui frontend for maemo? just for simple operations like encrypt/decrypt file or clipboard? | 02:21 |
| kalikiana | kynky, do you need f9 in particular or a certain function? | 02:21 |
| Arkenoi | s/ur/or/ | 02:21 |
| infobot | Arkenoi meant: is there any good (or just usable) pgp gui frontend for maemo? just for simple operations like encrypt/decrypt file or clipboard? | 02:21 |
| kalikiana | you can do a lot of things with ctrl + something | 02:21 |
| kynky | kalikiana, its an ncurses app, f9 allows me to kill processes | 02:22 |
| lardman | night all | 02:23 |
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| kalikiana | kynky, might be easier to modify the config then | 02:23 |
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| julianoliver | Arkenoi: sorry to hear all that. my N900 has given me no problems at all this last week, short of a fairly poor experience of OVI maps. scratchbox is another thing.. | 02:23 |
| kynky | for that specific app ? | 02:23 |
| julianoliver | (which is where my axe swings now) | 02:24 |
| kalikiana | if it's just one the app, yeah | 02:24 |
| julianoliver | anyway, night all. | 02:24 |
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| frals | gnite all o/ | 02:25 |
| Arkenoi | julianoliver, just my bad luck, but things like that are expected to be handled without user intervention of that kind. btw there is no by-turn voice assisted navigation yet? | 02:25 |
| bobbyd | it's a shame that there are seemingly so many hardware failures | 02:25 |
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| kynky | i would imagine using f keys could be quite common, but not sure for certain | 02:25 |
| Oli`` | Is there a magic dance I can do to get WMV support? | 02:26 |
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| javispedro | yeah, transcoding | 02:26 |
| kynky | mplayer supports some wmv | 02:26 |
| Arkenoi | oli: mplayer should do | 02:26 |
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| monty_ | wow its busy in here :) | 02:29 |
| monty_ | anyone alive ? | 02:30 |
| javispedro | God is alive. you can find him in tmo. | 02:30 |
| monty_ | grin , I was thinking my browser had gone mad and was not displaying the messeges , no probs :) | 02:31 |
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| monty_ | worth a try although everyone is quiet , anyone got a remote desktop app working on the n900 with windows as the target machine ? | 02:33 |
| monty_ | :) | 02:33 |
| pupnik_ | omg this is so awesome. Fast google map frontend for Maemo! http://tomch.com/maemaps.html | 02:34 |
| monty_ | have you tried it on the n900 ? | 02:34 |
| monty_ | does it look good ? | 02:34 |
| Arkenoi | latitude.. i need latitude, that's why i need google maps.. | 02:34 |
| pupnik_ | it works well, dunno about look good | 02:35 |
| monty_ | ark, I hear you, the big issue for me with the n900 is not having google maps application . have allways had this on every phone for years | 02:35 |
| pupnik_ | it is so so so much better than std google view. bookmark it. | 02:36 |
| kynky | at least n900 can do googe maps via browser ? | 02:36 |
| pupnik_ | oh yeah, this is sweet | 02:37 |
| monty_ | pupnik, sorry im not following | 02:37 |
| pupnik_ | it is a simpler frontend for google maps webpage | 02:37 |
| pupnik_ | feels like an app now | 02:37 |
| Arkenoi | i've heared there is j2me vm for maemo, anyone tried it? | 02:38 |
| monty_ | well its totally different experience with a proper google maps application, street view e.t.c, ark, what do you mean by VM ? | 02:38 |
| Arkenoi | monty: java virtual machine, runtime environment | 02:39 |
| Arkenoi | me differs much from se | 02:39 |
| pupnik_ | i gotta get started with OSM though. Do my own neighborhood | 02:39 |
| monty_ | "hides behind the sofa at all the tech terms " | 02:40 |
| Oli`` | Is there an Open Street Maps application with directions (like Ovi maps, etc) and, for a bonus) with voice directions (like a Tom Tom)? | 02:40 |
| Oli`` | Or a map loader so the phone isn't sucking down data all the time? | 02:41 |
| pupnik_ | My default map on n900 works without internet connection or downloads | 02:42 |
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| pupnik_ | not sure how OSM fetches | 02:42 |
| Oli`` | pupnik_: Is that just because it's cached where you are? | 02:43 |
| pupnik_ | i drove all over germany and netherlands | 02:43 |
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| pupnik_ | if i drove to Waziristan i would probably have to download | 02:43 |
| Oli`` | pupnik_: well I'm not sure how you've managed that... Mine takes forever to zoom in because it has to download so much | 02:44 |
| pupnik_ | we are talking about n900 default map application? | 02:44 |
| Oli`` | yeah | 02:44 |
| pupnik_ | it *has* the map data on device | 02:44 |
| pupnik_ | disconnect and see | 02:44 |
| monty_ | what would be involved in porting a google maps application to the n900 ? | 02:45 |
| pupnik_ | find the source | 02:45 |
| pupnik_ | step 1 | 02:45 |
| pupnik_ | holy cow - last paper | 02:45 |
| monty_ | ? | 02:46 |
| monty_ | I take it only google could offer this port? | 02:46 |
| SpeedEvil | monty_: yes. Anyone else would be violating the maps TOS. | 02:47 |
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| SpeedEvil | If it was a clone. | 02:47 |
| monty_ | that would make sence! I doubt google will be doing it in a hurry :( | 02:47 |
| lcuk | SpeedEvil, really? | 02:48 |
| AakashPatel | sense* | 02:48 |
| lcuk | i couldnt write a web browser that just happened to work really really well on maps.google.com | 02:48 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: The google maps imagery and stuff has many licence conditions. | 02:48 |
| lcuk | and was really crap at other sites | 02:48 |
| lcuk | not my fault tho | 02:48 |
| lcuk | stupid c code | 02:48 |
| ali1234 | lcuk: i was just thinking the exact same thing... | 02:48 |
| SpeedEvil | I plan on doing some OSM related work on the n900 | 02:49 |
| lcuk | and you will be rewarded well for it mr speedevil | 02:49 |
| lcuk | i was reading up on osm stuff hte other day and hte slippymap implmentation stuff | 02:50 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: I doubt it regrettably. | 02:50 |
| lcuk | with lookups from coords to tiles and stuff | 02:50 |
| SpeedEvil | (financially anyway) | 02:50 |
| lcuk | very interesting | 02:50 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: yeah - it's openlayers | 02:50 |
| lcuk | yeah i once got kicked from google for a liqbase map tile downloader i wrote | 02:50 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: To do it 'properly' on a mobile device you'd want a compact binary format for the vectors. Which is not quite trivial. | 02:50 |
| lcuk | i panned across 3 states and wondered why i ran out of threads | 02:51 |
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| lcuk | SpeedEvil, a compact vector format mmm | 02:51 |
| lcuk | my sketches are compact vectors | 02:51 |
| SpeedEvil | The XML of the planet is ~100GB IIRC | 02:51 |
| pupnik_ | SpeedEvil: can you elaborate this compact binary format | 02:51 |
| lcuk | i dont need the planet | 02:51 |
| lcuk | pupnik_, its documented | 02:52 |
| lcuk | on the osm wiki | 02:52 |
| pupnik_ | ah | 02:52 |
| SpeedEvil | pupnik_: I mean - you'd need to write one. There are ideas on the website | 02:52 |
| lcuk | i personally want to use the vector maps from the n900 map app | 02:52 |
| Arkenoi | it seems that wifi is much more power consuming than gprs. a bug or something? my AP thinks power saving is on and everything seems to be ok except fast battery drain | 02:52 |
| lcuk | download using same tool as usual for country | 02:52 |
| lcuk | and since the maps are on my personal device make use of them | 02:52 |
| Oli`` | pupnik_: thanks for that... ovi maps is so much faster when it's disconnected | 02:53 |
| mikhas | Arkenoi, check the advanced settings | 02:53 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: Reverse engineering map formats can be really annoying | 02:53 |
| mikhas | the difference between 10mW and 100mW | 02:53 |
| mikhas | advanced settings of your stored wifi connections, that is | 02:53 |
| SpeedEvil | 100mW? | 02:53 |
| lcuk | speedevil you think lots of things are annoying | 02:53 |
| AakashPatel | are the factory maemo img's for the n900 avail for download somewhere/ | 02:54 |
| lcuk | i think its a challenge | 02:54 |
| pupnik_ | Oli``: i haven't noticed a slowdown :( maybe you are in a superdense city region | 02:54 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: Yes. It's a challenge - but not fundamentally an interesting one to me. | 02:54 |
| AakashPatel | pupnik_, you get your invite yet? | 02:54 |
| lcuk | understood | 02:54 |
| pupnik_ | haven't checked - ty | 02:54 |
| mikhas | SpeedEvil, yes. you can set wifi connections to use 100mW | 02:54 |
| lcuk | which would be why if i was gonna start id use the osm ones | 02:54 |
| Arkenoi | yep, power saving is on. will try reduced power, may be this helps | 02:55 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: Decoding a closed map format that may change at the whim of the vendor, and whos licence terms probably don't permit it... | 02:55 |
| lcuk | cos its open and available | 02:55 |
| lcuk | ^^ | 02:55 |
| lcuk | not planning on it | 02:55 |
| SpeedEvil | mikhas: I don't think that's actually legal in the UK | 02:55 |
| mikhas | heh | 02:55 |
| lcuk | i just think its a nice route if it could be made | 02:55 |
| mikhas | what *is* legal in the UK? | 02:55 |
| lcuk | nothing | 02:55 |
| mikhas | the more I lurk the more I get the impression it's some kind of a prison island | 02:55 |
| lcuk | theres a loophole for everything | 02:55 |
| lcuk | they can arrest you for the most innocuous tihng | 02:56 |
| * javispedro is reminded of the first apps that started decoding garmin img maps | 02:56 | |
| monty_ | grin there are a lot of restrictions on freq in the uk | 02:56 |
| Oli`` | pupnik_: isn't not that big a place - I'm on the outskirts of the 49th biggest city in the UK | 02:56 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: I'm most irritated about the proposal to make it illegal to have a licensed car locked in your garage without insurance. This will cost me 200 quid a year or so. | 02:56 |
| pupnik_ | i can confirm that it's kind of dog-slow - trying now online | 02:57 |
| pupnik_ | but i don't really mind | 02:57 |
| Oli`` | it's just strange | 02:57 |
| pupnik_ | i am getting huge lags in browser | 02:57 |
| pupnik_ | like everything stops for 10 sec | 02:57 |
| SpeedEvil | pupnik_: swapping? | 02:57 |
| lcuk | try browsing normal sites, prn tends to clog the tubes | 02:57 |
| pupnik_ | should really be running this over a network sniffer | 02:57 |
| SpeedEvil | pupnik_: Check the hard disk light. :) | 02:58 |
| pupnik_ | oh what a fantastic idea | 02:58 |
| pupnik_ | genius | 02:58 |
| SpeedEvil | (or more practically, top) | 02:58 |
| pupnik_ | use LED for read/write indicator | 02:58 |
| SpeedEvil | Oooh! | 02:58 |
| SpeedEvil | no. | 02:58 |
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| SpeedEvil | Vibrator to mirror disk seeks. | 02:58 |
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| pupnik_ | hahahahahahahaha | 02:58 |
| Oli`` | Woo there's finally an app for sending files over bluetooth in Extras | 02:58 |
| SpeedEvil | Custom disk seek noises | 02:59 |
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| pupnik_ | while we're at it, make floppy emulation an option | 02:59 |
| SpeedEvil | Of course! | 02:59 |
| pupnik_ | drrrrr-r-r-r- drrrrr-r-r-r drr-r-r-r-r <click!> | 02:59 |
| lcuk | using the haptic feedback thing | 02:59 |
| lcuk | i might make an amiga 5 second | 02:59 |
| pupnik_ | nice find Oli`` - what's it called | 02:59 |
| lcuk | click.....click.....click | 02:59 |
| mikhas | and same speed of a floppy | 02:59 |
| mikhas | and failure rates! | 03:00 |
| Macer | you have to love sound in space | 03:00 |
| mikhas | then you have to use vgacopy on your flash to repair the simulated bad sectors! | 03:00 |
| pupnik_ | i still need to fix floppy sounds in the apple emulator | 03:00 |
| Oli`` | pupnik_: Petrovich | 03:00 |
| Macer | floppy sounds? | 03:00 |
| pupnik_ | ty | 03:00 |
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| AakashPatel | How do i add more mem to this scratchbox/xephyr | 03:01 |
| AakashPatel | Everytime i try to go to a web page | 03:01 |
| AakashPatel | it tells me low mem | 03:01 |
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| crashanddie | anyone got a link to the N900 pictures that made the front page of TMO some time ago? | 03:02 |
| crashanddie | err, front page of maemo.org | 03:02 |
| jaem | AakashPatel, it's not like a VM - AFAIK there is no "memory allocated" to it | 03:02 |
| AakashPatel | oh :/ | 03:02 |
| jaem | I"m not sure what that error is implying | 03:02 |
| jaem | but probably something else | 03:02 |
| AakashPatel | Then how would I...do stuff | 03:02 |
| jaem | :P | 03:02 |
| AakashPatel | haha | 03:02 |
| AakashPatel | I see | 03:02 |
| jaem | ask around - it's probably some quirk | 03:02 |
| AakashPatel | Yeah okay | 03:02 |
| jaem | AakashPatel, I presume the machine you're running it on has sufficient memory? | 03:03 |
| AakashPatel | uh its in a ubuntu vm with 768MB of ram | 03:03 |
| lcuk | AakashPatel, what tells you you are low on memory | 03:03 |
| lcuk | an internal maemo error, or your main machine | 03:03 |
| AakashPatel | Maemo | 03:03 |
| lcuk | have you broken it installing something? | 03:04 |
| AakashPatel | uh, i installed the browser :/ | 03:04 |
| Macer | blah. still waiting for this crap to copy then i have to scrub again | 03:04 |
| AakashPatel | thats what im tryin to use | 03:04 |
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| lcuk | mmm installed the browser? | 03:05 |
| AakashPatel | yeah | 03:05 |
| lcuk | its there by default on the public final install? | 03:05 |
| javispedro | it is, nokia-apps. | 03:05 |
| lcuk | just click the gui installer | 03:05 |
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| lcuk | and it puts it there | 03:05 |
| AakashPatel | oh what? there's a GUI installer? | 03:06 |
| mikhas | AakashPatel, yeah | 03:06 |
| mikhas | it's great | 03:06 |
| * AakashPatel did it the hard way then :/ | 03:06 | |
| mikhas | AakashPatel, http://www.forum.nokia.com/Tools_Docs_and_Code/Tools/Platforms/Maemo/ | 03:06 |
| javispedro | and it's done in Qt already. | 03:06 |
| lcuk | yeah | 03:06 |
| lcuk | works really well :) | 03:06 |
| javispedro | I wonder what they're going to do with all this Gtk+ know-how | 03:06 |
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| mikhas | well, that is maybe the not-so-great part =p | 03:06 |
| lcuk | it seems to just work | 03:07 |
| lcuk | so i wouldnt complain | 03:07 |
| mikhas | yup | 03:07 |
| GAN900 | Haha, if that joker in the MfE thread things Nokia was given all of the open source code in perfect working condition for "free" he's more clueless about open source, Maemo and Nokia than he could possibly imagine. | 03:07 |
| mikhas | it has very useful links at the end of the installation, too | 03:07 |
| * GAN900 would love to see that guy boggle over @nokia commit logs. | 03:07 | |
| mikhas | AakashPatel, I would recommend to bookmark them all =) | 03:07 |
| lcuk | yeah :) i was really impressed the first time i ran through it | 03:07 |
| AakashPatel | MikaT, yeah haha i shall | 03:07 |
| AakashPatel | mikhas, * | 03:07 |
| pupnik_ | sad when a forum gets less informative than an irc channel | 03:08 |
| javispedro | GAN900: with someone now advertising the pandora as the solution for "all our problems" what you'd expect :) | 03:08 |
| pupnik_ | per unit time spent | 03:08 |
| mikhas | AakashPatel, even if you already installed sbox | 03:08 |
| mikhas | use the UI installer anyway | 03:08 |
| mikhas | it will update your targets | 03:08 |
| mikhas | or create new ones | 03:09 |
| mikhas | =) | 03:09 |
| AakashPatel | alirghty | 03:09 |
| mikhas | and it maemofies your desktop | 03:09 |
| AakashPatel | installing :D | 03:09 |
| AakashPatel | :0 | 03:09 |
| mikhas | nah, just some shortcuts | 03:09 |
| AakashPatel | maemofies <<I GOTTA HAVE THAT | 03:09 |
| AakashPatel | hahaha | 03:09 |
| GAN900 | javispedro, we need to glass Talk. | 03:09 |
| javispedro | just glass? I'd prefer to death star ray'd it. | 03:11 |
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| AakashPatel | installing :0 | 03:13 |
| Macer | gr | 03:14 |
| Macer | damnit | 03:14 |
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| GAN900 | hehe | 03:14 |
| GAN900 | We really should talk about more active moderation. | 03:14 |
| AakashPatel | haha | 03:14 |
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| AakashPatel | lol wtf at this quit message | 03:15 |
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| mikhas | are you laughing about someone's religious believes? | 03:17 |
| AakashPatel | Yep, mostly at the way its written | 03:17 |
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| AakashPatel | lol | 03:17 |
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| AakashPatel | I'm a harsh man | 03:18 |
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| pupnik_ | http://www.syntax-k.de/projekte/sdl-opengl-hq SDL->OpenGL with HQ2x scaling | 03:19 |
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| pupnik_ | maybe god is ceiling cat | 03:20 |
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| AakashPatel | pupnik_, anything is possible lol | 03:23 |
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| bobbyd | all I want is to get a unit with working hardware :) | 03:24 |
| bobbyd | it's not too much to ask is it? | 03:24 |
| GAN900 | ~ping | 03:24 |
| infobot | ~pong | 03:24 |
| AakashPatel | its $500 to ask | 03:25 |
| AakashPatel | haha | 03:25 |
| GAN900 | Haze is so broken! | 03:25 |
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| bobbyd | that is too much to ask! | 03:25 |
| bobbyd | :) | 03:25 |
| AakashPatel | haha | 03:25 |
| GAN900 | I can't keep a connection for more than 10% of the time. . . . | 03:25 |
| AakashPatel | why? | 03:25 |
| GAN900 | Woo, Network Error. | 03:26 |
| AakashPatel | o.O | 03:26 |
| wjt | GAN900: please file a bug report, preferably with debug output | 03:26 |
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| Macer | wtf is haze? | 03:26 |
| * wjt is about to go to bed, so can't help figure out what's going on right now | 03:26 | |
| AakashPatel | night wjt | 03:27 |
| wjt | Macer: the telepathy component which exposes libpurple's protocols | 03:27 |
| Macer | i'm going to have to put tomato on another ddwrt | 03:27 |
| Macer | er.. wrt | 03:27 |
| Macer | libpurple? | 03:27 |
| AakashPatel | Macer, chat shiz | 03:27 |
| Macer | which is used for what? | 03:27 |
| Macer | i know what telepathy is | 03:27 |
| GAN900 | wjt, whenever I change connections automatically I can never get reconnected to AIM. | 03:27 |
| GAN900 | How do I get debug output? | 03:27 |
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| GAN900 | AIM, MSN, Yahoo, etc. | 03:28 |
| wjt | Macer: it's used for getting AIM and MSN and Yahoo! and Gadu-Gadu and … support in the built-in chat apps | 03:28 |
| wjt | GAN900: http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/Debugging | 03:28 |
| AakashPatel | does the built in app have facebook for a chat option? | 03:28 |
| AakashPatel | oh hm maybe ill see after i finish intsalling this SDK | 03:28 |
| wjt | no, but you can (/will be able to, real soon now) use a libpurple plugin to get facebook im via haze | 03:28 |
| AakashPatel | thats awesome | 03:29 |
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| Arkenoi | is there wifi signal mere widget? | 03:29 |
| Arkenoi | s/mere/meter/ | 03:29 |
| infobot | Arkenoi meant: is there wifi signal meter widget? | 03:29 |
| AakashPatel | nice bot lol | 03:30 |
| AakashPatel | s/bot/lot | 03:30 |
| AakashPatel | OKAY | 03:30 |
| AakashPatel | dont work for me | 03:30 |
| AakashPatel | haha | 03:30 |
| Macer | it took 5 friggin episodes for them to get power to teh ship in sgu | 03:30 |
| Macer | haha | 03:30 |
| fernand0 | you missed the last / :P | 03:30 |
| AakashPatel | oh woops | 03:30 |
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| AakashPatel | s/bot/lot/ | 03:30 |
| AakashPatel | eh i guess i have to say somethign | 03:31 |
| AakashPatel | s/somethign/something | 03:31 |
| AakashPatel | dammit | 03:31 |
| fernand0 | I think it only works on the last sentence | 03:31 |
| AakashPatel | i did it again | 03:31 |
| * Arkenoi does not like SG, too predictable, too many hints in frame etc etc | 03:31 | |
| AakashPatel | haha | 03:31 |
| fernand0 | s/think/believe/ | 03:31 |
| infobot | fernand0 meant: I believe it only works on the last sentence | 03:31 |
| AakashPatel | ... | 03:31 |
| * AakashPatel is hated by infobot | 03:31 | |
| bobbyd | did anyone implement libsipe in Haze? | 03:31 |
| AakashPatel | testr | 03:32 |
| AakashPatel | s/testr/test/ | 03:32 |
| infobot | AakashPatel meant: test | 03:32 |
| AakashPatel | Yay! | 03:32 |
| bobbyd | betty swollocks | 03:32 |
| bobbyd | s/betty/sweaty | 03:33 |
| AakashPatel | forgot your last / | 03:33 |
| bobbyd | s/betty/sweaty/ | 03:33 |
| infobot | bobbyd meant: s/sweaty/sweaty | 03:33 |
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| GAN900 | Idiot neighbors stepping all over my WiFi | 03:34 |
| AakashPatel | GAN900, MAC address filter ftw | 03:35 |
| AakashPatel | or do you mean its like raping your signal? lol | 03:35 |
| bobbyd | GAN900: if you're getting interference, switch channels | 03:36 |
| AakashPatel | yeah | 03:36 |
| SpeedEvil | MAC address filter does nothing | 03:36 |
| AakashPatel | or make it INTELLIGENT :0 | 03:36 |
| GAN900 | AakashPatel, nah, channelwise. | 03:36 |
| GAN900 | Yeah | 03:36 |
| SpeedEvil | TKIP also does not as much as you'd like. | 03:36 |
| AakashPatel | hm | 03:37 |
| GAN900 | They've all installed new router and all set them on channels I was already on. | 03:37 |
| * AakashPatel uses WPA2-AES | 03:37 | |
| AakashPatel | all my AP's auto negotiate a free channel :D | 03:37 |
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| Macer | wow | 03:41 |
| AakashPatel | owo | 03:41 |
| bobbyd | GAN900: connet to their routers and change their channels | 03:42 |
| AakashPatel | haha | 03:43 |
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| bobbyd | I'm not joking | 03:48 |
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| bobbyd | most people leave the passwords as default | 03:48 |
| bobbyd | and if not, you can crack their WEP | 03:48 |
| rashed2020 | -s pymaemo included by default in maemo 5? | 03:48 |
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| Arkenoi | is there airsnort/aircrack for n900? | 03:52 |
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| * GAN900 can't believe his whole family has iPhone's now. | 03:56 | |
| philosopher | so finally is does the n900 have 16 m or 65536 color | 03:57 |
| microlith | you're really surprised? | 03:57 |
| philosopher | ? | 03:57 |
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| AakashPatel | how come these images colors are inverted in the browser scratchbox | 03:57 |
| pupnik_ | Best thread on using Omap3's powervr SGX scaler to upscale emulator and game screens to N900 display at 60hz | 03:58 |
| pupnik_ | http://www.gp32x.com/board/index.php?/topic/49293-sgx-opengl-es-2-0-application-development-recommendations/ | 03:58 |
| philosopher | any one ? | 03:59 |
| lcuk | philosopher, depends on video mode | 03:59 |
| lcuk | "both" is the correct answer | 04:00 |
| philosopher | lcuk care to explain ? | 04:00 |
| lcuk | not really im tired and going to bed lol | 04:00 |
| lcuk | short: there are different modes the card can support, i for instance have and use YUV 24bit color mode, what the rest of the OS uses I dunno | 04:01 |
| lcuk | pupnik_, what res is sdl run in ? | 04:01 |
| pupnik_ | 800x480 | 04:01 |
| philosopher | lcuk: but the screen support 16M color in hardware ? | 04:01 |
| lcuk | 8bit? palette? true color? 16bit? 24 bit? | 04:01 |
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| pupnik_ | i think it is a 16 bit screen | 04:02 |
| pupnik_ | not sure where i read that | 04:02 |
| philosopher | yea cuz source seems to disagree on it | 04:02 |
| philosopher | gsmarena say 16M but nokia doesnt mention that | 04:02 |
| lcuk | philosopher, i use truecolor 24bit graphics, they dont appear to be a problem for me, but what the rest of the os uses and whether the pathway is 24bit is unknown by me | 04:02 |
| lcuk | but that wasnt your question | 04:02 |
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| Robot101 | maemo 5 generally uses 16-bit RGB | 04:03 |
| pupnik_ | the question was whether it had 16m color, and if the screen doesn't support that, the video mode of x doesn't matter lcuk | 04:03 |
| philosopher | lcuk ok .... but i am bot sur eto understand | 04:03 |
| Robot101 | it can do 32-bit but its much slower | 04:03 |
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| pupnik_ | lcuk, you misunderstood a simple question | 04:03 |
| philosopher | pupnik_: exactly | 04:03 |
| lcuk | Robot101, it was at 32bit originally afaik wasnt it | 04:04 |
| Robot101 | the screen isn't a limiting factor particularly | 04:04 |
| Arkenoi | is n900 screen multitouch capable if there will be a driver that supports it someday? | 04:04 |
| pupnik_ | no multitouch | 04:04 |
| philosopher | Robot101: any source on your info | 04:04 |
| Robot101 | philosopher: I employ loads of people who work on the UI framework? :) | 04:05 |
| * lcuk is one but hasnt come across that layer just yet | 04:05 | |
| Robot101 | I'm pretty sure the window manager and gtk are all set to 16-bit RGB | 04:05 |
| Robot101 | they did look at 32-bit ARGB to allow transparency in certain gtk things | 04:05 |
| Robot101 | there's a sapwood (the gtk theme engine) branch for it lying around somewhere, but most gtk wigdets don't /quite/ work with transparent visuals | 04:06 |
| pupnik_ | http://forums.internettablettalk.com/showthread.php?p=351213 philosopher here's a thread on the subject | 04:06 |
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| philosopher | Robot101: but in video mode the screen is 16M? | 04:10 |
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| philosopher | Robot101: ? | 04:14 |
| Robot101 | not entirely certain - it uses YUV packed colour when doing video, which actually means its still 16 bits per pixel, because it gives more bits to the Y and samples V and U every other pixel... | 04:15 |
| Robot101 | but if you unpacked it to RGB, each pixel would be 24 bits | 04:15 |
| Robot101 | (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling) | 04:16 |
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| Arkenoi | looks like changing sip registration type to tcp improves wifi standby time significantly | 04:17 |
| Robot101 | not a very helpful answer, but basically means it has different detail levels for brightness versus colour | 04:17 |
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| Robot101 | Arkenoi: really? interesting... | 04:18 |
| Arkenoi | i am not quite sure but appears to behave like that | 04:18 |
| Arkenoi | yesterday i tried it with udp and after 12 hours my battery was almost drained | 04:19 |
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| Robot101 | philosopher: sorry if that doesn't answer your question, I don't know what the screen hardware itself can do, just the silicon and the software | 04:21 |
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| Robot101 | its never appeared to be an issue for me though, tbh :) | 04:21 |
| Robot101 | 'night | 04:22 |
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| AakashPatel | Arkenoi, how long do you get on tcp? | 04:24 |
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| pupnik_ | Arkenoi: perhaps this could be a topic on talk.maemo.org < Arkenoi> looks like changing sip registration type to tcp improves wifi standby time significantly | 04:29 |
| pupnik_ | lol on wired.com, a poster claims: "Given that an LCD display is made of red, green and blue elements, isn’t it obvious it can’t display millions of colours? After all, even at 8bits that 256 levels of each - in reality that’s 256+256+256 and not 256*256*256" http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2007/05/apple_lcd_lawsu/ | 04:30 |
| Arkenoi | aakash: about 12 hours already and battery is just about 30% drained | 04:30 |
| pupnik_ | oh dear that font is ugly | 04:31 |
| Arkenoi | https://garage.maemo.org/projects/abiword/ <- will this work on n900? | 04:31 |
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| pupnik_ | It worked on N810 | 04:39 |
| pupnik_ | almost | 04:39 |
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| GAN900 | Arkenoi, recompile may be recommended. | 04:44 |
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| b-man17 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=395055#post395055 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | 05:46 |
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| pupnik_ | apparently there is a way to get a deswizzled texture on powervr MBX. Not sure if it works on SGX. | 06:15 |
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| clmntch | hello all | 06:21 |
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| pupnik_ | hi | 06:26 |
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| pupnik_ | so, with N900, once *again* nokia's implementation pushes beyond what TI designed-for | 06:32 |
| pupnik_ | But given those limitations good job. | 06:33 |
| AakashPatel | Just ordered my N900 from amazon :0 | 06:33 |
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| pupnik_ | Congrats! | 06:33 |
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| AakashPatel | Wonder how long it'll be before it ships lol | 06:34 |
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| izzox | Hi all | 06:35 |
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| b-man17 | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=395102#post395102 apparently people arn´t taking this seriously >:( | 06:35 |
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| odin_ | my N900 finally arrived in UK | 07:50 |
| pupnik_ | congrats! | 07:53 |
| pupnik_ | how do you like it odin_ ? | 07:53 |
| Arkenoi | is easydebian usable on n900 atm? | 07:54 |
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| odin_ | its ok so far.... which parts of the software kernel/user-space remain propriety (usable, but as binary blob) and which parts can be recompiled/fixed ? | 07:57 |
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| odin_ | I have linux kernel programming experience (as far back as 1995 :) this is finally the device I've been waiting for | 07:57 |
| odin_ | but most of the work needed is in user-space | 07:57 |
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| sulx | bleh..still need to wait 7 days =( | 07:59 |
| Flandry | ha that's like my software engineer uncle "It's a hardware problem" | 07:59 |
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| odin_ | one annoying input problem is lack of <TAB> key ... also the "Sym" key isn't as good as the E61i version | 08:02 |
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| odin_ | I would like to map "Left-Shift + Fn" to be <TAB> | 08:02 |
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| GAN900 | odin_, there's a couple threads on -developers | 08:03 |
| odin_ | the "Sym" function should have the top line of most-recently used and a search function (allowing Unicode input etc...) | 08:04 |
| GAN900 | Talk to fanoush or Stskeeps if you want advice on kernel hacking. | 08:04 |
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| odin_ | when you say -developers is that a mailing list, sorry I have not read the entire maemo.org website yet :) | 08:06 |
| GAN900 | odin_, yeah, maemo-developers mailing list. | 08:06 |
| odin_ | does the maemo.org website get looked at by Nokia for their own update ? trying to understand if the community is completely seperate from the official product | 08:06 |
| GAN900 | Also consider -community. | 08:06 |
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| GAN900 | odin_, well, Nokia is a member of the community. | 08:07 |
| GAN900 | Lots of Nokians floating around. | 08:07 |
| GAN900 | (between proper Nokians and contractors there are about two dozen in this channel at any given time) | 08:08 |
| GAN900 | Public bugzilla at bugs.maemo.org | 08:08 |
| GAN900 | Most code at maemo.gitoreous.org | 08:08 |
| odin_ | also what is the virdict on Java support, is that "on the way" ? | 08:09 |
| Flandry | only if someone hacks it in | 08:09 |
| odin_ | I have seen the jamimo/classpath idea but I don't hold out much hope in it | 08:10 |
| odin_ | its just too complex to get right soon, needs commercial backing to provide objectives and purpose | 08:10 |
| GAN900 | It'd have to be a community effort. | 08:11 |
| odin_ | well maybe I speak bad of it too soon, but I know that gcj/classpath just doesn't work on desktop and its for the most popular workstation CPU in the world | 08:12 |
| RST38h | The verdict on Java support is that nobody needs it. If somebody needed it, he would bring Jalimo to usability. | 08:20 |
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| Arkenoi | j2me would be nice | 08:22 |
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| RST38h | my thoughts exactly, but apparently nobody needs even j2me, badly enough to implement it | 08:22 |
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| odin_ | lol its cheaper to use a diff phone with J2ME enabled, like E6x/7x | 08:31 |
| tigert | odin_: out of curiosity, where would you need tab? | 08:31 |
| tigert | except for xchat nick completion :) | 08:31 |
| odin_ | tigert, browsing form boxes | 08:31 |
| tigert | ok | 08:32 |
| GAN900 | xterm | 08:32 |
| tigert | xterm has tab | 08:32 |
| tigert | as softkey | 08:32 |
| GAN900 | Bleh | 08:32 |
| tigert | in the toolbar | 08:32 |
| tigert | and Ctrl-I works too in terminal | 08:33 |
| GAN900 | It's way out of the way | 08:33 |
| tigert | dude | 08:33 |
| GAN900 | True | 08:33 |
| odin_ | LeftShift+Fn =<TAB> (would work well for me) | 08:33 |
| tigert | everything is in the way wiht N900, in fingers reach | 08:33 |
| L0cutus | re | 08:33 |
| tigert | its not like "bah, grab mouse.." | 08:33 |
| GAN900 | tigert, I have to think about moving my thumb up there. | 08:33 |
| GAN900 | Feels like it. :P | 08:33 |
| tigert | I thought the same way before | 08:34 |
| GAN900 | Anyway, that still doesn't fix XChat | 08:34 |
| * RST38h remembers wanting to ask tigert if he is planning an original icon theme for N900 | 08:34 | |
| tigert | now after using the device for bunch of months and N810 before that | 08:34 |
| GAN900 | Which is probably about 30% of my total usage. | 08:34 |
| RST38h | tigert: Any hope? | 08:34 |
| tigert | I think thumb is handy | 08:34 |
| tigert | RST38h: hmm | 08:34 |
| odin_ | maybe "Down Arrow" and "Up Arrow" should also tab when in browser, when you are in input text mode | 08:34 |
| tigert | RST38h: one could do a theme from tango icons I guess | 08:34 |
| GAN900 | I want Bora Plankto ported to Fremantle. | 08:34 |
| GAN900 | +n | 08:35 |
| tigert | odin_: that I agree with | 08:35 |
| RST38h | tigert: yea, that is one possibility | 08:35 |
| tigert | RST38h: would look nice too | 08:35 |
| RST38h | although they may be too complex for the tiny screen | 08:35 |
| * RST38h checks | 08:35 | |
| tigert | the problem is the silly naming of icons in maemo | 08:35 |
| tigert | but | 08:35 |
| tigert | theres the icon-naming-utils in tango | 08:35 |
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| tigert | that lets you do symlinks | 08:35 |
| tigert | to maintain two namespaces | 08:35 |
| tigert | thats what gnome-icon-theme <--> tango was doing before the new naming was adopted | 08:36 |
| RST38h | tigert: can I simply rename all the icons by hand? | 08:36 |
| RST38h | Or does it have some disadvantages? | 08:37 |
| tigert | I guess | 08:37 |
| tigert | but | 08:37 |
| tigert | I guess icon-naming utils could be useful, | 08:37 |
| RST38h | (the icons look ok btw, should look normal even on n900 display) | 08:37 |
| tigert | since then any fdo compatible icon theme using the icon naming standard would at those parts work | 08:37 |
| RST38h | aha | 08:37 |
| tigert | RST38h: also I need to check if svg icons work on the device | 08:37 |
| RST38h | Looks like there is a .png set for tango | 08:38 |
| tigert | http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/blfs/view/svn/general/icon-naming-utils.html | 08:38 |
| tigert | first hit from google | 08:38 |
| tigert | I dunno if this is uptodate | 08:38 |
| tigert | but this thingy might be handy | 08:38 |
| tigert | there is png too | 08:38 |
| tigert | but it would be fun to see if svg works, as maemo icon sizes are a bit different | 08:39 |
| odin_ | hmm... JDK7 is downloadable in source code :) ... hmm.... | 08:40 |
| * RST38h googles for documents on maemo5 theme creation | 08:40 | |
| odin_ | wonder if there is a platform independant Java interpreter runtime in there | 08:40 |
| tigert | RST38h: theme or icon theme? | 08:40 |
| RST38h | icon theme, really | 08:41 |
| RST38h | odin: there is, of course | 08:41 |
| RST38h | KVM | 08:41 |
| RST38h | Part of phoneme | 08:41 |
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| tigert | RST38h: it uses mostly the freedesktop.org icon theme stuff, so gnome icon theme mechanism | 08:42 |
| tigert | but | 08:42 |
| * RST38h has no idea of the gnome icon theme mechanism either | 08:42 | |
| RST38h | Should probably be some tar.gz with the right dir structure inside? | 08:43 |
| * tigert goes for breakfast, I can poke you with some urls a bit later | 08:43 | |
| tigert | yeah | 08:43 |
| RST38h | if possible, yes, thanks in advance =) | 08:43 |
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| tigert | the widget theme template stuff is fun too if you are artistic minded or adventurous :) | 08:43 |
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| * RST38h isn't artistic unfortunately, but he can package a bunch of files, no problem there =) | 08:44 | |
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| tigert | yea | 08:44 |
| RST38h | wazd may be interested in the templates though | 08:44 |
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| tigert | yea | 08:44 |
| RST38h | as long as Nokia *finally* provides him with an n900 in some way (DDP or otherwise) | 08:44 |
| tigert | i wish more people found them and did themes | 08:44 |
| tigert | mayvbe i should blog about them | 08:44 |
| RST38h | posting to tmo Design subforum may help too | 08:45 |
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| hrw | morning | 08:45 |
| RST38h | ehlo hrw | 08:45 |
| hrw | yeah, themes | 08:45 |
| tigert | yeah | 08:45 |
| hrw | one of things which I have on n900 todolist is 'get rid of those ugly S60 Touch icons' | 08:46 |
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| RST38h | <work> | 08:49 |
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| odin_ | the touchscreen gestures, is that all handleds by the input framework ? | 08:57 |
| odin_ | in the browser if you slide the pointer in from the left side, you get a mouse pointer... is there anything assigned to sliding into view from the right side ? could this be used to activate scroll bars reliably ? | 08:58 |
| hrw | bye | 09:00 |
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| odin_ | hmm sliding in from right and sliding out top, seems to go back in history... I'd prefer to customize it to make starting on left side, moving up then off sliding out the left side to be the "Back" function | 09:02 |
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| odin_ | this frees up the right side for a reliable scrollbar function | 09:03 |
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| tigert | left size has your fancy pointer-hover gesture | 09:33 |
| tigert | its pretty handy on complex-interaction websites | 09:33 |
| tigert | drag-and-hold finger from left- > you see cursor | 09:33 |
| tigert | hit space to do a mouse click | 09:33 |
| tigert | works nicely for dropdown menus etc | 09:33 |
| tigert | since you can hover | 09:34 |
| odin_ | yes I like that | 09:34 |
| tigert | its pretty crazy and not obvious to see | 09:34 |
| tigert | the cursor icon thingy is easier to understand of course | 09:34 |
| tigert | but you can just drag-and-keep-mousing without pressing the icon | 09:34 |
| odin_ | there appears to be a right side slide-in and out through top (does Browser Back) ? | 09:34 |
| tigert | so its nice for quickly doing stuff when you know it | 09:34 |
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| odin_ | opps... right side slide-in and down through bottom == Browser Back ? | 09:35 |
| tigert | not sure if there are more gestures than left and right slide | 09:35 |
| tigert | use backspace to just go "back" one step | 09:35 |
| odin_ | I want this on "start in screen, go up, then slide out left" for "Browser Back" | 09:35 |
| odin_ | this is so I can make the right side slide-in be scroll back use | 09:36 |
| tigert | start in screen gesture is for panning | 09:36 |
| tigert | believe me, the guy who worked on the user interface had almost his brain melt | 09:36 |
| tigert | its pretty complex case | 09:36 |
| tigert | when you have kinetic panning as well | 09:36 |
| tigert | that rules out most of gestures starting from the screen center | 09:37 |
| tigert | because you use that to move around | 09:37 |
| tigert | just yse b | 09:37 |
| tigert | erm | 09:37 |
| tigert | just use backspace to go back | 09:37 |
| odin_ | yes backspace works too | 09:37 |
| odin_ | I am aware of that one | 09:37 |
| tigert | you know ctrl-backspace? | 09:37 |
| tigert | very handy for fullscreen browser + term | 09:38 |
| odin_ | the issue is scroll bar usage on normal widgets | 09:38 |
| Khertan | Hi ! | 09:38 |
| odin_ | slide-in from right and then up or down, I want to operate any scrollbar of any widget | 09:38 |
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| odin_ | but at the moment... "slide in (from right to left), then go down (through bottom)" operates "Browser Back" | 09:40 |
| odin_ | I want this to "scroll up" but not just browser, also dialog widgets in normal apps | 09:41 |
| odin_ | more obvious to me would for browser back is "start in-screen go up, then left (sliding out of screen)" | 09:41 |
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| odin_ | a ¬ type of shape | 09:42 |
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| odin_ | or even the reverse, "start off-screen, slide in (left to right), then go down (finish in-screen)", like you are pulling the previous page back | 09:44 |
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| tigert | well | 09:51 |
| tigert | just drag the list | 09:52 |
| tigert | like on flickr, theres this "add to group" | 09:52 |
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| tigert | which has a scrollable list inside a dropdown menu | 09:53 |
| tigert | you can just pan the list itself | 09:53 |
| tigert | forget your learned habits and explore how maemo browser works | 09:54 |
| tigert | I think it is pretty OK as a whole | 09:54 |
| tigert | if you would start changing stuff you'd break something else | 09:54 |
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| odin_ | well its early days for me, does the i-text virtual bluetooth keyboard work well with it ? | 09:57 |
| odin_ | the laser keyboard thing | 09:57 |
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| odin_ | my first programming job will be to ensure vnc/putty/rdesktop are all upto the job | 09:59 |
| tigert | should if that itself works well | 09:59 |
| tigert | why do you need putty? | 10:00 |
| tigert | install openssh :) | 10:00 |
| Klowner | (windows user) | 10:00 |
| tigert | and theres a terminal | 10:00 |
| odin_ | yeah Ive done that | 10:00 |
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| tigert | vnc exists also in the repository | 10:00 |
| tigert | though I havent used it | 10:00 |
| odin_ | yes installed that too, but need to check out that its upto the job | 10:00 |
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| odin_ | putty is like a GUI version of ssh client | 10:01 |
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| odin_ | openssh client is like a command line ssh client | 10:01 |
| odin_ | so unless someone did a good job of the bit in the middle, I'll stick with concept of using putty over openssh-client | 10:01 |
| tigert | well | 10:01 |
| tigert | its the commandline | 10:02 |
| tigert | wasnt there some ssh-gui thingy for maemo sometime? | 10:02 |
| odin_ | then is the terminal window/emulator too-notch ? | 10:02 |
| tigert | its using vte terminal widget | 10:02 |
| odin_ | *top-notch | 10:02 |
| tigert | same as in Gnome linux desktop | 10:02 |
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| tigert | had no problems with that | 10:02 |
| tigert | install ttf-droid package | 10:02 |
| tigert | reboot | 10:02 |
| tigert | and use Droid Sans Mono font for it | 10:03 |
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| tigert | and its better | 10:03 |
| odin_ | I have that installed too | 10:03 |
| tigert | the Courier font we use by default sucks | 10:03 |
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| tigert | droid sans mono is tech awesome | 10:03 |
| tigert | s/tech// | 10:03 |
| infobot | tigert meant: droid sans mono is awesome | 10:03 |
| odin_ | I see "X Terminal" ? | 10:03 |
| tigert | yeah, that | 10:04 |
| tigert | then install openssh-client | 10:04 |
| tigert | and "ssh foo.com" | 10:04 |
| tigert | works, but doesnt give you the fancy gui of putty | 10:04 |
| odin_ | only 12pts and 16pts big jump around the sizes you want | 10:04 |
| tigert | use zoom, luke | 10:04 |
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| vesa | <3 n900 + sshfs <3 | 10:05 |
| tigert | vesa: hmm | 10:05 |
| tigert | vesa: sshfs, how? :) | 10:05 |
| vesa | who needs opengl emulation/simulation/whatever =) | 10:06 |
| tigert | odin_: note that you can also install openssh-server | 10:06 |
| vesa | tigert: it's in extras devel | 10:06 |
| tigert | and ssh into your device | 10:06 |
| odin_ | zoom in X Terminal ? (cant see option, rotation gestures dont work, no obvious button for zoom) | 10:06 |
| tigert | vesa: ! | 10:06 |
| odin_ | yes I have openssh-server installed | 10:06 |
| tigert | odin_: zoom keys | 10:06 |
| tigert | in top of device | 10:06 |
| tigert | the rocker thingy | 10:06 |
| vesa | not visible in application manager but with apt-get | 10:06 |
| tigert | rotation in terminal do not make much sense | 10:06 |
| tigert | its for keyboard use anyway | 10:06 |
| tigert | vesa: oh | 10:06 |
| odin_ | quit with this makes much sense nonsense | 10:07 |
| tigert | vesa: I wish there was dropbox support too | 10:07 |
| vesa | why its hidden i have no idea. but mounting a server-directory makes on-device testing sooooooo much faster =) | 10:07 |
| tigert | vesa: application manager only shows "User" packages | 10:07 |
| tigert | like, no libs or other system tools | 10:07 |
| vesa | ah, ok | 10:07 |
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| odin_ | rotation gestures in X Terminal make a lot of sense to me | 10:09 |
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| odin_ | trying to flick zoom in and out all the time with keyboard open is useless | 10:09 |
| tigert | well, | 10:10 |
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| tigert | http://osso-xterm.garage.maemo.org/ | 10:10 |
| tigert | get the source and hack away :) | 10:11 |
| odin_ | sure will | 10:11 |
| tigert | those guys should be happy to welcome you into the project | 10:11 |
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| odin_ | what is "osso" about ? Open Source ??? | 10:12 |
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| tigert | well | 10:13 |
| tigert | a relic | 10:13 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: http://wiki.maemo.org/Codenames | 10:13 |
| tigert | our department was called "OSSO" before | 10:14 |
| tigert | like it says in that wikipage | 10:14 |
| odin_ | the N900 I have here, that is Fremantle ? 1.2009.42-11.203.2 | 10:16 |
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| tigert | yeah | 10:16 |
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| tigert | N900 has fremantle software | 10:16 |
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| odin_ | will N900 have Harmattan ? or will that be a new product ? | 10:16 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: noone really knows. harmattan targets capactive screens | 10:17 |
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| odin_ | ok a new device then, like N901 | 10:17 |
| tigert | we cannot speculate future products in public, sorry | 10:17 |
| ab | tigert, neither in private :) | 10:17 |
| tigert | yeah :) | 10:18 |
| tigert | good point, no use privmsging me :) | 10:18 |
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| * ab yesterday read through v4lcamsrc source code (it is open) to find out CAMSRC_PUBLISH_RAW ;) | 10:18 | |
| odin_ | lol... I'm not so much interested in PR... I'm not interested in devices I can buy today | 10:19 |
| odin_ | lol... I'm not so much interested in PR... I'm _MORE_ interested in devices I can buy today | 10:19 |
| tigert | yeah | 10:19 |
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| Stskeeps | odin_: then that's N900 | 10:19 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 10:19 |
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| odin_ | Stskeeps, yes it arrived yesterday, I am stamping on it now... the shock test | 10:19 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: it might actually be able to handle that.. | 10:20 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 10:20 |
| odin_ | no wait.... | 10:20 |
| odin_ | it didn't | 10:20 |
| * odin_ cries | 10:20 | |
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| odin_ | should have left that test until last | 10:20 |
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| JohnnyLollipop | is there any step-by-step tutorial to build maemo on ubuntu 9.04? | 10:20 |
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| odin_ | ubuntu host ? | 10:21 |
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| JohnnyLollipop | yes | 10:21 |
| tigert | odin_: N900 can take quite a bit of punishment, but leave testing to the professionals ;) | 10:21 |
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| Stskeeps | JohnnyLollipop: you want to build Maemo on top of Ubuntu, or develop apps for Maemo using ubuntu? | 10:21 |
| odin_ | I would expect the normal instruction work on any recent linux distro | 10:21 |
| JohnnyLollipop | build Maemo on top of Ubuntu | 10:22 |
| JohnnyLollipop | not just develop apps | 10:22 |
| odin_ | the host disto should not matter so much | 10:22 |
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| Stskeeps | JohnnyLollipop: so you want put the stack on top of Ubuntu? :P | 10:22 |
| JohnnyLollipop | i found at least hildon-desktop is not synced with Maemo project one's | 10:22 |
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| Stskeeps | JohnnyLollipop: you'll want to look into | 10:22 |
| Stskeeps | ~mer | 10:22 |
| infobot | rumour has it, mer is http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer, or on #mer | 10:22 |
| odin_ | I understand JohnnyLollipop's request is that he wishes to develop using a Ubunto workstation (the host enviromment) but target maemo | 10:22 |
| Stskeeps | and save yourself a lot of insanity | 10:22 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: nah.. it's worse | 10:23 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 10:23 |
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| Stskeeps | JohnnyLollipop: the big issue about maemo stack on top of ubuntu is the need to use maemo gtk | 10:23 |
| JohnnyLollipop | so the maemo gtk is not opened? | 10:23 |
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| tigert | no, it is open | 10:24 |
| Stskeeps | it is | 10:24 |
| tigert | but | 10:24 |
| tigert | ubuntu also has gtk | 10:24 |
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| tigert | they conflict | 10:24 |
| wazd | muhaha, maemo 5 apps top conquered by me :D | 10:24 |
| odin_ | Xnest ? $LD_LIBRARY_PATH ? | 10:24 |
| JohnnyLollipop | so amazing, this indeed is a big problem | 10:24 |
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| tigert | odin_: scratchbox | 10:24 |
| tigert | odin_: its a sandbox environment the SDK uses | 10:25 |
| Stskeeps | JohnnyLollipop: are you involved with the ubuntu effort to bring hildon desktop in? :P | 10:25 |
| JohnnyLollipop | yes | 10:25 |
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| JohnnyLollipop | actually i wan to know how to build a maemo platform from scratch | 10:25 |
| Stskeeps | JohnnyLollipop: did you even research first? :P | 10:25 |
| odin_ | tigert, I have not installed SDK yet myself, I am on Fedora Core 3 and badly need to upgrade, its scheduled for sometime soon FC12 | 10:25 |
| odin_ | tigert, once that is done then I set to work | 10:25 |
| tigert | fc12 is out | 10:25 |
| Stskeeps | JohnnyLollipop: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileTeam/UbuntuLiquid | 10:26 |
| odin_ | tigert, been out a week and 3 days | 10:26 |
| Stskeeps | JohnnyLollipop: ? | 10:26 |
| tigert | yeah | 10:26 |
| tigert | I know, installed it as vmware machine to try it out | 10:26 |
| JohnnyLollipop | I researched for weeks | 10:26 |
| tigert | odin_: ubuntu is a good env to use the sdk in | 10:26 |
| tigert | there was some docs for to do it in fedora too | 10:26 |
| odin_ | tigert, no the scheduler for sometime soon, is my workstation downtime! I am too busy to just do it now | 10:26 |
| JohnnyLollipop | i just want to know those packages to make up a maemo platform | 10:26 |
| tigert | but most of us use ubuntu in house to do stuff | 10:26 |
| tigert | so it might be easier, run it in vmware player or such to hack on the sdk if you want | 10:27 |
| odin_ | tigert, I am a Red Hat fan and have been for the 14 years Ive been into linux (although red hat was not around then :) | 10:27 |
| Stskeeps | JohnnyLollipop: OK, i recommend you to take a hard look at Mer. we've spent over a year basing Maemo on top of Ubuntu. | 10:27 |
| tigert | odin_: yeah, we all started with slackware, didnt we :) | 10:27 |
| odin_ | yup | 10:27 |
| JohnnyLollipop | okay, thanks Stskeeps | 10:27 |
| tigert | odin_: remember the first redhat graphical installer with those weirdo icons? :) | 10:27 |
| Stskeeps | JohnnyLollipop: and the main issue you will run into is Maemo GTK+ and fighting with the gtk package maintainers to get a variant | 10:27 |
| JohnnyLollipop | but is mer the netbook version one? | 10:28 |
| Stskeeps | no, mer is a maemo.org project. ubuntu mobile was based on moblin1 | 10:28 |
| tigert | odin_: I think it was in RH 4 or 5 | 10:28 |
| Stskeeps | er, ubuntu mid | 10:28 |
| odin_ | tigert, nope as I was prolly still using text mode to install.. as GUI installed was kind of new and broken and weird | 10:29 |
| tigert | yea | 10:29 |
| Jaffa | Morning, all | 10:29 |
| Stskeeps | JohnnyLollipop: your primary mission is to find out how to get maemo gtk+ into ubuntu in some way. rest is fairly trivial :P | 10:30 |
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| tigert | odin_: I started my design career with those :) | 10:32 |
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| odin_ | ah so those "weirdo icons" were your fault ? | 10:33 |
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| tigert | yeah ;) | 10:34 |
| odin_ | what kind of ARM CPU is it ? I do not know the history and progression of ARM CPUs. I see "Cortex-A8" and "OMAP" and "ARM" and still don't understand, I believe "OMAP" to be a TI initiative for System-on-Chip solutions | 10:35 |
| odin_ | and maybe "Cortex-A8" to be the ARM design that was license for fabrication to TI/Nokia | 10:36 |
| mece | tigert, odin_, yeah, slackware is where I started too. | 10:36 |
| mece | tigert, how is redhat these days? Haven't used it since the nineties. | 10:36 |
| odin_ | so which assembler instruction manual do I download for the exact instruction set implemented ? | 10:36 |
| tigert | I guess people use fedora | 10:36 |
| tigert | its the community side of rh afaik | 10:37 |
| tigert | they use it as base for red hat enterprise stuff as far as I remember | 10:37 |
| tigert | fedora 12 looked pretty slick | 10:37 |
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| mece | tigert, oh of course..now that you mention it, my secondary work computer has fedora :) | 10:37 |
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| mece | I use mint myself, because I'm lazy :) and debian on my server... and CentOS on work servers.. uh. | 10:38 |
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| lbt | mece: sounds familiar | 10:39 |
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| mece | lbt, it does get confusing. Luckily I don't do much configuring on the servers.. | 10:43 |
| * lbt just assumes that the debian way is the right way and 'fixes' CentOS | 10:44 | |
| lbt | <grin> | 10:44 |
| lbt | alias apt='rpm' and all is well | 10:44 |
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| mece | lbt, LOL | 10:47 |
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| mece | Nah, I'd still go for Behexen. The new Gorgoroth is better, but feels much 'warmer'. Wormwood on the other hand. Eeeevil! | 10:50 |
| mece | WTF? | 10:50 |
| odin_ | ARM Cortex-A8 (r3p1) ??? Processor : ARMv7 Processor rev 3 (v7l), CPU revision : 3, CPU variant : 0x1 ? | 10:50 |
| * mece looks embarassed | 10:50 | |
| mece | sorry about that. | 10:50 |
| mece | my windows seem to jump focus automagically | 10:51 |
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| wazd | ~ping | 11:06 |
| infobot | ~pong | 11:06 |
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| VRe | Maybe someone is interested to upvote my process "bug" report (for Modest): "Release bug fixes now or soon, not later" :) (https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6358). I haven't noticed much discussion on the topic (maybe I missed it). Anyways I think it would be good thing to discuss in general open source (nokia) application release period length. | 11:09 |
| povbot | Bug 6358: Release bug fixes now or soon, not later | 11:09 |
| Stskeeps | VRe: modest is developed openly | 11:10 |
| Stskeeps | afaik | 11:10 |
| odin_ | does the maemo distrubtion have an auto-builder/cruisecontrol QA in place ? | 11:10 |
| vesa | any ideas how many texture units the n900 chip has? | 11:10 |
| VRe | Stskeeps: yeah, it is but releases follow nokia | 11:11 |
| Stskeeps | VRe: you are free to build the package yourself and install it on your device | 11:12 |
| odin_ | can't there be multiple tracks ? | 11:12 |
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| odin_ | nightly build from HEAD, integration builds from released fixes, releases builds (milestone/alpha/beta/final) | 11:13 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: each of those would require gpl compliance etc.. | 11:14 |
| VRe | Stskeeps: Of course, or I could pack it and release reModest which will have the fixes which are kept back.. but just saying that sound so stupid | 11:14 |
| odin_ | Stskeeps, what do you see as being the GPL compliance issue ? | 11:14 |
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| odin_ | Stskeeps, if the entire SCM is open for download, thats what other projects do | 11:15 |
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| Stskeeps | odin_: entire SCM of maemo isn't open :) | 11:15 |
| odin_ | Stskeeps, well sure, but those parts are not GPL ? | 11:16 |
| Stskeeps | correct, but for those that are, if you release a binary image, you have to have all sources ready, 100% legal and all that stuff.. | 11:16 |
| Stskeeps | release very often is not always easy | 11:17 |
| Stskeeps | internally in a company, of course | 11:17 |
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| Stskeeps | externally it's a pandoras box | 11:17 |
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| odin_ | Stskeeps, not if the SCM is open, thats all other major corps do | 11:17 |
| odin_ | Stskeeps, since there is no such thing as a release | 11:17 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: yes, but not all stuff is developed openly.. | 11:18 |
| Stskeeps | some is just tar.gz releases | 11:18 |
| odin_ | Stskeeps, there is only what is in SCM, you are not required to release a binary | 11:18 |
| * Stskeeps ponders idly why he's taking this discussion | 11:18 | |
| odin_ | Stskeeps, anything that is binary and non-GPL put to one side a minute | 11:18 |
| Stskeeps | there's a goal of release often in maemo, they'll get there eventually | 11:19 |
| Stskeeps | right now it is not that trivial | 11:19 |
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| odin_ | I suppose what I am saying is, if the parts which are binary and non-open-source as handled seperately, it is this part that Nokia should concentrate on speeding up release cycles on | 11:21 |
| odin_ | the rest of the stuff can be dealt with externally direct from SCM and the community | 11:22 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: there's independent package releases, in scm. | 11:22 |
| Stskeeps | but the moment you use those you diverge from SSU | 11:22 |
| rmrfchik | I use portrait orientation on n810 for reading. I heard, n900 works only on landscape (except phone mode). Can I run reader in portrait? | 11:22 |
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| philn-tp | hi | 11:23 |
| Khertan | Depends on which "reader" are you talking about | 11:23 |
| Stskeeps | rmrfchik: it's up to each application to implement portrait mode. | 11:23 |
| Stskeeps | rmrfchik: so 3rd party apps can have it easily | 11:23 |
| Khertan | rmrfchik: for example pygtkeditor implement rotation support | 11:23 |
| Stskeeps | it is supported in the syst | 11:23 |
| philn-tp | i forgot my garage account infos... is there some way to request a new password? | 11:24 |
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| Khertan | hum ... i think i make too many call to the regex in pygtkeditor : 18544 76.648 0.004 76.648 0.004 :0(search) | 11:26 |
| Khertan | 18544 call :) | 11:26 |
| tarelerulz | is the devices Maemo runs on much different then what android runs ? | 11:27 |
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| Khertan | tarelerulz: android isn't a linux :) | 11:27 |
| zaheerm | philn-tp, there'so forgot password option? | 11:27 |
| zaheerm | android uses the linux kernel | 11:28 |
| tarelerulz | Khertan: Why is not Linux ? | 11:28 |
| zaheerm | and very different userspace | 11:28 |
| philn-tp | zaheerm: haven't found it yet.. confused, i am | 11:28 |
| SaBer | Khertan: also that has nothing to do with the HW | 11:28 |
| zaheerm | unlike any linux distro | 11:28 |
| SaBer | zaheerm: yeah, it's only the kernel | 11:28 |
| Khertan | http://tree.celinuxforum.org/CelfPubWiki/ELCEurope2009Presentations?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=Mythbusters_Android.pdf | 11:29 |
| tarelerulz | Linux is just kernel . What makes say Ubuntu Linux . | 11:29 |
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| zaheerm | tarelerulz, ok let's put it this way, the pn;y thing similar between android and every pther linux distro is the kernel | 11:30 |
| glass_ | tarelerulz: take a look at android development. you're pretty much as end user application developer meant to totally ignore that it's linux and just write programs for the java-like vm on it | 11:30 |
| Khertan | tarelerulz: yep but too modified kernel to call it "linux" | 11:30 |
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| zaheerm | everything else is different | 11:30 |
| zaheerm | s/pn;y/only/ | 11:30 |
| SaBer | Wasn't the original question about the HW? :) | 11:30 |
| Khertan | SaBer: i don't think | 11:30 |
| Khertan | SaBer: it was :)* | 11:31 |
| SaBer | < tarelerulz> is the devices Maemo runs on much different then what android runs ? | 11:31 |
| tarelerulz | Well, Glass that is good point . | 11:31 |
| zaheerm | <tarelerulz> is the devices Maemo runs on much different then what android runs ? | 11:31 |
| Khertan | device are quite the same | 11:31 |
| Khertan | in term of specs | 11:31 |
| zaheerm | tarelerulz, hardware wise, the closest android device in terms of spec to n900 is the droid | 11:31 |
| tarelerulz | What kind of movies does it play ? | 11:32 |
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| zaheerm | tarelerulz, i think that's where android fails :) | 11:32 |
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| zaheerm | n900 multimedia wise is lightyears ahead of any android device | 11:33 |
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| tarelerulz | android only play .mp4 container and mp4 video ,h264 and ac3 audio and mp3 . Which is ok ,but I would not mind something that does more | 11:33 |
| zaheerm | yes but it plays them badly | 11:34 |
| tarelerulz | android or maemo ? | 11:34 |
| zaheerm | android | 11:34 |
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| zaheerm | try playing a normal SD h264 video on android | 11:34 |
| tarelerulz | any of you put ogg on Meamo ? | 11:34 |
| zaheerm | yes | 11:34 |
| zaheerm | ogg-support is in Extras | 11:35 |
| tarelerulz | So it will basic play anything gstream plays ? mp4 , ogg , mkv | 11:35 |
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| zaheerm | tarelerulz, to an extent | 11:36 |
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| tigert | there is a limit on bandwidth the device can crunch | 11:36 |
| zaheerm | it's not high powered enough to play h264 or mpeg4 in HD for example | 11:36 |
| tarelerulz | HD goes with out saying | 11:36 |
| tigert | it plays a LOT more than N810 though | 11:36 |
| zaheerm | yes so most content will play | 11:37 |
| tigert | like most youtube mp4's play ok | 11:37 |
| zaheerm | mpeg2 is nto dsp optimised so limited res with mpeg2 | 11:37 |
| tigert | just not the super-highres HD ones | 11:37 |
| ali1234 | because flash plugin currently uses software decoding | 11:37 |
| tigert | youtube plays fine in the browser though | 11:37 |
| zaheerm | ali1234, even if it was dsp optimised it wouldn't handle hd youtube clips | 11:37 |
| tigert | its nice fullscreen when commuting :) | 11:37 |
| odin_ | ARM Cortex-A8 (r3p1) ??? Processor : ARMv7 Processor rev 3 (v7l), CPU revision : 3, CPU variant : 0x1 ? is it single core ? is FPU a co-processor ? is SIMD/DSP a co-processor ? | 11:37 |
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| tarelerulz | I would have to lower the res and bitrates of stuff ,but if that is met then it should not matter the format . | 11:38 |
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| tigert | tarelerulz: I used iriverter for example | 11:38 |
| zaheerm | tarelerulz, if you're going to transcode to it, i believe transmageddon has an n900 profile | 11:38 |
| tigert | to transcode to lower size | 11:38 |
| RST38h | back | 11:39 |
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| ali1234 | well TI disagree with you: "High performance OMAP3430 applications processor that supports up to 720p HD video encode/decode " | 11:39 |
| tarelerulz | Well, it play .mkv ? if so does it support multi-audio and subtitles tracks. I understand the res and bitrate stuff . | 11:39 |
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| tigert | ali1234: the high res limits your bus bandwidth I guess | 11:40 |
| tigert | tarelerulz: apt-get install mplayer to do all the geek shit | 11:40 |
| johnx | tarelerulz, mplayer supports mkv, but could be a little more optimized I think | 11:40 |
| ali1234 | youtube "HD" isn't even real HD (yet) | 11:40 |
| johnx | of course :) | 11:41 |
| johnx | just like 90% of the things labeled HD | 11:41 |
| ali1234 | although 720p is supposed to be coming, i bet it's hilariously low bitrate when it arrives | 11:41 |
| Stskeeps | i still wonder how people can claim they're getting HD output from their iphones on composite.. | 11:41 |
| tigert | btw | 11:41 |
| zaheerm | tarelerulz, yes mkv is supported with installation of an extra package | 11:41 |
| johnx | I wonder how much bandwidth youtube eats per day | 11:41 |
| tigert | I recommend that Download Youtube MP4 bookmarklet | 11:41 |
| tigert | works great on N900 too | 11:41 |
| tarelerulz | I understand with supporting more formats is harder . Most device use hardware decoding so that is why they only support mpeg 4 | 11:41 |
| zaheerm | or install zoutube :) | 11:42 |
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| ali1234 | i like the canola youtube plugin | 11:42 |
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| johnx | luckily, there's definitely ways for 3rd party stuff to take advantage of native hardware accel though | 11:42 |
| johnx | it's a much better situation than android or WebOS, AFAICT | 11:43 |
| zaheerm | yes any app that uses gstreamer automatically has mpeg4, h263, h264 hw optimised | 11:43 |
| tarelerulz | What kind of price rang we looking at ? I am in USA | 11:43 |
| zaheerm | theora there is also a dsp optimisation for | 11:43 |
| johnx | zaheerm, so there's a possibility of a mkv-support package, just like the ogg-support package? (if someone does the work I mean) | 11:44 |
| zaheerm | johnx, yes i created the package that did the mkv thing, but yah i should make a package that adds it nicely like ogg-support | 11:45 |
| johnx | tarelerulz, the N900? $450 from dell.com right now it seems | 11:45 |
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| johnx | I didn't even know there was a way to play it in the built-in media player | 11:45 |
| johnx | awesome | 11:45 |
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| tarelerulz | wow 450 is pretty high and for that much it should do all that | 11:46 |
| johnx | (think I missed the first part of the conversation. sorry, if I'm asking questions that were already answered.) | 11:46 |
| zaheerm | http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Using_Multimedia_Components/Installing_codecs_for_files_that_don%27t_play_in_Media_Player | 11:46 |
| johnx | $450 unlocked is high? | 11:46 |
| odin_ | is the N900 a single core device ? but support NPTL in user space ? | 11:46 |
| Stskeeps | tarelerulz: we had this discussion, a iphone 3gs with 32gb unlocked is 1000 usd | 11:46 |
| Stskeeps | it's fairly cheap considering | 11:47 |
| zaheerm | so yah i should create an mkv-support package that deps on the necessary packages and runs the tracker-register-mimetype stuff | 11:47 |
| zaheerm | tarelerulz, not many phones are much cheaper than 450$ unlocked... | 11:47 |
| tarelerulz | Why is all the price for n900 all unlock what does it not come on any network in the USA | 11:48 |
| zaheerm | tarelerulz, especially nto ones with the featureset the n900 has | 11:48 |
| ali1234 | especially considering the n900 has a camera as good as most compact digitals, and enough storage to replace a DV camcorder | 11:48 |
| johnx | other unlocked omap3430 devices tend to run much higher ... | 11:48 |
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| johnx | tarelerulz, it works with t-mo on 3G and at&t on edge, but yeah, it's not subsidized on any carrier. High upfront cost, but cheaper in the long run | 11:49 |
| odin_ | N900 not in the UK yet, because its just too new... Vodafone only released the E72 a week ago (and that was launched in June 2009) | 11:50 |
| odin_ | I should have an E72 coming later today (for good measure, since I have been using E61i for just over 2 years now) | 11:50 |
| odin_ | but bye bye S60... I expect the E72 will be by last S60 phone :) | 11:50 |
| tarelerulz | So far N900 looks great . a real Linux on a phone is great. The gui don't look as slick and android or web os ,but that is small thing | 11:50 |
| odin_ | E72 is my backup plan for when I break my N900 ha ha | 11:51 |
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| johnx | the UI is a matter of taste, but it feels ... better thought out (maybe?) than Android | 11:52 |
| johnx | haven't had a chance to handle a Pre for more than 30 seconds yet | 11:52 |
| johnx | some of my favorite UI elements are the things that aren't even parts of the GUI, such as opening the lens cover to launch the camera app | 11:53 |
| tarelerulz | Why I speak on the gui is on a phone you want something easy and fast to use . Not something you have to figure out and takes more then 2 seconds to do something new. it part of functionally not matter of taste for me. take the iphone its gui works as well as it does make it easy and fast to use . | 11:53 |
| tigert | a good ui doesnt get in the way | 11:54 |
| tigert | </obvious blah> :) | 11:54 |
| zaheerm | i like the fremantle ui | 11:54 |
| * tigert likes it too | 11:54 | |
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| zaheerm | i prefer it to iphone ui and android ui | 11:54 |
| tarelerulz | tigert, That is my point . | 11:55 |
| SpeedEvil | A good GUI lets you do stuff fast when you've had the phone for a week | 11:55 |
| johnx | tarelerulz, yeah, I guess I was saying that "looks slick" is a matter of opinion. In terms doing things quickly, in my experience it beats android and loses to iphone in some things | 11:55 |
| SpeedEvil | How fast it is when you've had it for a minute is almost irrelevant | 11:55 |
| tarelerulz | To , me that is one thing android had over looked when it first come out . It seem to gotten the point by now | 11:56 |
| tigert | which? speed? | 11:56 |
| tarelerulz | Work flow | 11:56 |
| tarelerulz | not needing to figure out stuff | 11:57 |
| johnx | task switching still bugs me on android | 11:57 |
| suihkulokki | tigert: in general it is very likeable.. but it still suffers from too deep menus | 11:57 |
| Stskeeps | tarelerulz: there's always a learning curve unless it's windows XP. | 11:57 |
| Stskeeps | and you grew up on that | 11:57 |
| Stskeeps | a quick instruction is acceptable | 11:57 |
| tarelerulz | That is good point . To me gui is very important . I don't mean looks ,but how easy something is to control | 11:57 |
| johnx | (or maybe I didn't figure out android in the limited time I had with it) | 11:58 |
| tigert | Stskeeps: windows has the worst learning curve ever, its just so common | 11:58 |
| suihkulokki | my pet example: try to setup a a proxy (and compare it to howto setup a proxy on iphone) | 11:58 |
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| tigert | suihkulokki: I never had to do that though | 11:58 |
| johnx | actually, a lot of "modern" OSes still lose in my mind compared to PalmOS 3 and 4 in terms of "number of clicks to do some task" | 11:59 |
| tigert | suihkulokki: the proxy settings are indeed pretty deep hidden | 11:59 |
| tigert | suihkulokki: but I never had to use them, except for that internal wlan we had to use ages ago in N800 days | 11:59 |
| RST38h | johnx: That is UI, not the OS | 12:00 |
| RST38h | PalmOS can barely be called an OS =) | 12:00 |
| johnx | true enough | 12:01 |
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| johnx | there were some neat features of the OS though too. The choice of execute in place seemed to work really well for them | 12:01 |
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| tigert | johnx: a lot of "modern" OSes have a lot more tasks you can do | 12:01 |
| * RST38h makes a sidenote about Maemo5 task switcher being UX nightmare | 12:01 | |
| suihkulokki | tigert: yeah, but 1) company networks where proxy is mandatory are still pretty common 2) as demoed by iphone, a non-deep proxy setting can be done easily | 12:01 |
| tigert | yet you can fit only so many things on screen at once for one-click | 12:01 |
| tbf | tarelerulz: ask in the forum if the internal devel themes would be released | 12:01 |
| tbf | tarelerulz: some of them where much more glossy and shiny | 12:01 |
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| tigert | suihkulokki: agreed | 12:01 |
| RST38h | tigert: You do know how this is normally handled? | 12:02 |
| RST38h | (or at least how PalmOS design team handled it) | 12:02 |
| tigert | suihkulokki: but I am just spoiled by the 2Mbit/s 3G | 12:02 |
| tigert | RST38h: ? | 12:02 |
| tigert | RST38h: please explain? | 12:02 |
| tbf | tigert: oh, you are here. is there a chance some of the devel themes get released? | 12:02 |
| johnx | suihkulokki, fire your IT guy :> | 12:02 |
| RST38h | tigert: You make a huge list of all the things that you should be able to do with the UI | 12:02 |
| tigert | tbf: I am just poking at that issue | 12:02 |
| tigert | tbf: I realized the layout and theme template is not out :P | 12:03 |
| johnx | making a transparent proxy is not rocket science ... | 12:03 |
| tigert | ask about that in talk.maemo.org | 12:03 |
| RST38h | tigert: You sort them in order of use frequency, use human guinea pigs to measure which ones are more important and how much time each takes | 12:03 |
| tigert | to help the effort :) | 12:03 |
| * Stskeeps 'd be happy to see hildon-theme-{tools,layout-5,devel} on gitorious | 12:03 | |
| tigert | RST38h: yeah | 12:03 |
| tigert | Stskeeps: me too | 12:03 |
| tigert | Stskeeps: you too poke talk.maemo.org and mail quim | 12:03 |
| tigert | lets make it happen faster :) | 12:03 |
| tbf | tigert: i pretty much loved the green theme. | 12:03 |
| RST38h | tigert: Then your UX boffins are supposed to create a hierarchical UI design that makes more important/frequent tasks lie on top, hides the rest gracefully | 12:04 |
| tigert | RST38h: yep | 12:04 |
| RST38h | tigert: Maemo5 UI apparently has not benefitted from this approach or maybe it has been rushed | 12:04 |
| tbf | tigert: Stskeeps: fastest way for getting such a request propagated is a bug report with Quim in CC | 12:04 |
| RST38h | tigert: PalmOS has got it perfectly, more or less | 12:04 |
| tigert | RST38h: yep, I dont think maemo is that bad either | 12:05 |
| tbf | this one came back to my PM within one or two days: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5549 | 12:05 |
| povbot | Bug 5549: libosso-abook should be open source | 12:05 |
| johnx | RST38h, on maemo there is a difference between running programs and not running programs though | 12:05 |
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| tigert | sure there are deep menus, but like, that proxy setting, I never used it, so it worked ok for my case at least | 12:05 |
| johnx | (for better or worse) | 12:05 |
| tigert | :) | 12:05 |
| TomaszD | extras-devel is broken again :( | 12:05 |
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| Stskeeps | tigert: -tools, -layout shouldn't be that big problem, and any problems with -devel would be nullified by the fact kontorri's theme maker has the template already :) | 12:07 |
| RST38h | tigert: Well, Maemo5 is not a total loser at UI | 12:07 |
| tigert | Stskeeps: and the sdk has the theme | 12:07 |
| RST38h | tigert: There are LOTS of worse UIs | 12:07 |
| tigert | Stskeeps: it shouldnt be a problem, just a matter of getting it done | 12:08 |
| tigert | Stskeeps: thus big demand from the community couldnt hurt :) | 12:08 |
| RST38h | tigert: It feels like a step back from Maemo4 UI in terms of utility though =( | 12:08 |
| tigert | RST38h: how so? | 12:08 |
| tigert | RST38h: its a bit step away from stylys for sure | 12:08 |
| RST38h | tigert: More hassle to reach the same functions | 12:08 |
| tigert | thus, less can be on screen at once | 12:08 |
| tigert | but I wouldnt want to use a stylus in a packed tram | 12:08 |
| RST38h | tigert: Yea, but my guess is that you could work around the lack of stylus without hiding functionality | 12:09 |
| julianol1ver | tarelerulz: have you seen Android on the Droid? it really does look pretty awful. the HTC skins of Android on their phones however, this 'sense' UI are quite well put together though. | 12:09 |
| tigert | but using thumbs-on-keyboard/screen grip has no problme | 12:09 |
| johnx | about two or three "face" buttons would go a loooong way to reducing clicks per task | 12:09 |
| RST38h | tigert: For example, the list of running apps is now hidden | 12:09 |
| RST38h | tigert: Furthermore, the list of available apps is not 1, 2, or 3 clicks away, depending on whether you have running apps and whether your app is "privileged" | 12:09 |
| RST38h | tigert: The necessity to know how many times you have to click is a burden to the user | 12:10 |
| tigert | RST38h: if one combined running apps and launcher, that would mean you almost always had to pan to reach what you look for | 12:10 |
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| RST38h | tigert: Furthermore, all user apps are now dumped into the same huge pane that you are supposed to finger scroll | 12:10 |
| tigert | RST38h: now it is one extra click to see all running apps | 12:10 |
| Stskeeps | tigert: got some CC's i can use on the bug report to hit the right people? | 12:10 |
| RST38h | tigert: Yea, I know the reasoning, seen it before | 12:10 |
| RST38h | tigert: Just do not think it works out this way :) | 12:11 |
| johnx | RST38h, the source code to the task switcher is there :) Would be really neat if someone did a total UI overhaul ... | 12:11 |
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| RST38h | tigert: And my pet peeve is of course false clicks when scrolling | 12:11 |
| julianol1ver | the thing that irritates me a little about using the N900 is accidental clicks, for instance when scrolling a list of contacts or media files. selection should not be so easily mistaken for resistive contact. | 12:11 |
| julianol1ver | RST38h: hah, snap | 12:11 |
| johnx | ok, so it was a bad idea on my part. come back everyone! | 12:12 |
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| tigert | RST38h: yeah, those are nasty if they happen | 12:12 |
| tigert | RST38h: the filtering + user learning seems to be the only way to help them | 12:12 |
| RST38h | tigert: I am pretty much treating current Maemo5 UI as a minefiled: one wrong delay with your finger pressed to the screen, and it starts launching stuff etcv | 12:12 |
| julianol1ver | overall however, i think the UI of the N900 is really good. a low learning curve. | 12:12 |
| tigert | RST38h: panning itself makes interactions tricky | 12:12 |
| RST38h | tigert: Well there is another way to help these problems | 12:13 |
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| RST38h | tigert: Check out MediaBox app: the author explicitely SEPARATES scroll-sensitive parts of the screen from touch-sensitive action buttons | 12:13 |
| tigert | Stskeeps: claudio maybe | 12:13 |
| RST38h | tigert: Of course, MediaBox UI has got a bunch of its own problems, I would never suggest emulating it :) | 12:13 |
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| tigert | :) | 12:14 |
| johnx | RST38h, we could call the scroll area a "scroll bar" | 12:14 |
| johnx | I'm gonna go patent it right now! | 12:14 |
| RST38h | tigert: But the idea of scrolling and activation made in different spots of the screen is a good one | 12:14 |
| RST38h | johnx: Run to the patent office like RIGHT NOW :) | 12:14 |
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| RST38h | tigert: And yes, I am well aware of a dozen nokia UX people who will scream "YOu ARE KILLING OUR CONCEPT!" at you if you mention returning to scroll bars | 12:15 |
| johnx | RST38h, just got back. some jerk from some copier manufacture got there before me :| works in some kind of xerox park or something ... | 12:15 |
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| tigert | RST38h: yeah, though that means you need to reserve space for that action click area | 12:15 |
| RST38h | tigert: Yea | 12:15 |
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| tigert | RST38h: you dont necessarily need scrollbars, just use panning for part of the screen | 12:15 |
| tigert | but its still taking space | 12:16 |
| RST38h | tigert: But people are asking for the return of scroll bar indicators anyway | 12:16 |
| tigert | why? | 12:16 |
| johnx | no, they don't. they need a touchscreen that extends beyond the LCD | 12:16 |
| RST38h | tigert: Who knows? Humans are strange. | 12:16 |
| tigert | scroll *indicator* is good and different than scrollbar | 12:16 |
| RST38h | tigert: But it still takes space :) | 12:16 |
| tigert | maemo5 has those on all pannable things | 12:16 |
| tigert | but it is smaller | 12:16 |
| tigert | since it is not a interactive thing | 12:16 |
| RST38h | tigert: Only they disappear when not scrolling | 12:16 |
| johnx | small scroll indicator onscreen, scrolling area to the right and left of the screen | 12:16 |
| RST38h | Whoever came up with this "great" idea... | 12:16 |
| odin_ | I like the scrollbar indicator, even if it was an alpha channel overlap on right hand side of area, rather then permanent space | 12:17 |
| tigert | well, sure you need to learn them the first time | 12:17 |
| RST38h | tigert: Anyway, just saying that the current UI definitely needs some work, and maybe from someone who is realistic about user interactions | 12:17 |
| tigert | sure, nothing is perfect :) | 12:17 |
| suihkulokki | the key problem with disappearing scrollbar is that you might not realize some pannable area actually has more buttons than you see | 12:18 |
| odin_ | s/overlap/overlay/ my main gripe is non-consisent understanding of what is "pannable" and what is "scrollable" | 12:18 |
| RST38h | tigert: A fe things (like scroll bar disappearing) can be fixed right away, others require redesign | 12:18 |
| julianol1ver | odin_: indeed | 12:18 |
| RST38h | s/fe/few | 12:18 |
| tigert | RST38h: but its not like it came out of random shit fet into emacs :) | 12:18 |
| tigert | RST38h: we have UX folks that are pretty good | 12:18 |
| julianol1ver | tigert: i met a couple of them last weekend. | 12:18 |
| tigert | its just a complex thing too, and also a big matter of opinion | 12:18 |
| odin_ | I just want slide-in from right jesture, to always activate scrolling, slide in from right and move up/down always means to scroll | 12:18 |
| julianol1ver | they seemed very strong on applied research, | 12:18 |
| RST38h | tigert: It is not profficiency that I worry about, it is dogmatism :) | 12:18 |
| tigert | and also a matter of opinion | 12:18 |
| tigert | there is no single "right way" to do things | 12:19 |
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| johnx | tigert, I agree there. no one talks about the parts of the UI that they really like, since the whole point of a good UI is to get out of your way :) | 12:19 |
| tigert | yeah | 12:19 |
| RST38h | tigert: I.e. unability to say "ok, this all-scrolling approach does not quite work, let us step away from it here, here, and there" | 12:19 |
| odin_ | of course there is tons of stuff that is great | 12:19 |
| suihkulokki | tigert: case example: control panel display popup | 12:19 |
| suihkulokki | s/display/profiles/ | 12:20 |
| julianol1ver | odin_: what do you think of the current method of getting 'out' of the application menu? | 12:20 |
| infobot | suihkulokki meant: tigert: case example: control panel profiles popup | 12:20 |
| RST38h | tigert: Or "we cannot tell developers to cut down application features just because they make our neww great menus too complex" | 12:20 |
| RST38h | tigert: (and you know that THIS has been said) | 12:20 |
| odin_ | julianol1ver, application menu, as in the pull down menus, with the fuzzy background area (of the window below) ? | 12:20 |
| julianol1ver | the window below, with web, contacts, email etc. | 12:21 |
| suihkulokki | RST38h: it is still much better to have the settings in one scrollable area than in a hierarchical menu | 12:21 |
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| tigert | RST38h: browser is one good example where you cannot have deep menus | 12:22 |
| tigert | I mean | 12:22 |
| tigert | where you just cannot have six menuitems to live with | 12:22 |
| odin_ | julianol1ver, the top left corner button ? | 12:22 |
| julianol1ver | it seems to me there is currently no clearly demarcated way to leave that area and go back 'up' to the workspace. you just tap on the top of the screen. this is not good IMHO. | 12:22 |
| tigert | RST38h: I think it has a pretty ok approach with dialog-with-more-menuitems :D | 12:22 |
| suihkulokki | or. like in the case of proxy setting, behind multiple popups, wizard, menus, tabs, and finally in a non-pannable scroll area :P | 12:22 |
| odin_ | julianol1ver, yes I see what you mean, does the touch screen work in the outside areas ? iPhone has a button doesn't it | 12:23 |
| julianol1ver | odin_: i think so, yes | 12:23 |
| TomaszD | can anyone tell my why does "No hash entry in Release file" happen so often for extras-devel | 12:23 |
| odin_ | so why not touch the black part to the right or left of the screen ? left for back and right for forward? | 12:23 |
| odin_ | julianol1ver, Im thinking touchscreen only works on the visible screen part and not on the black bits at the side | 12:24 |
| tigert | julianol1ver: this was one of those decisions, that leaving out the close-button / cancel button made the ui simpler | 12:24 |
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| tigert | julianol1ver: and user testing showed people had no problem learning the feature of tapping outside the dialog to close it | 12:24 |
| odin_ | tigert, yes but the application menu is not a dialog | 12:25 |
| tigert | that too | 12:25 |
| odin_ | tigert, the pull down fuzzy bit, is great | 12:25 |
| tigert | same thing | 12:25 |
| tigert | I mean the general idea of closing things by tapping on the fuzzy part | 12:25 |
| odin_ | tigert, but there is no "outside" in the application menu, unless you spend an extra moment carefully aiming your pointer and hoping it did not activate anything | 12:25 |
| julianol1ver | tigert: right. it's more that it's an inconsistency, a logical break somehow. the blurred background click, a kind of zoom-to-focus is great. | 12:26 |
| odin_ | tigert, yes the fuzzy part is great | 12:26 |
| odin_ | tigert, and when there is no fuzzy part ? | 12:26 |
| tigert | odin_: ? | 12:26 |
| julianol1ver | tigert: odin is right. there is no 'outside' in this case though. | 12:26 |
| tigert | when? | 12:26 |
| julianol1ver | tigert: when you're looking at the window of applications. | 12:26 |
| tigert | you mean the open apps list? | 12:26 |
| tigert | or what? | 12:26 |
| sp3000 | launcher I presume? | 12:26 |
| julianol1ver | there is a slightly larget 'gap' above the icons than at the base. | 12:27 |
| odin_ | no the "Web", "Media PLayer" ,etc... | 12:27 |
| tigert | yeah | 12:27 |
| tigert | you can tap outside any icon | 12:27 |
| tigert | on top there is more space yeah | 12:27 |
| tigert | but also on left, right or bottom | 12:27 |
| odin_ | maybe the launcher just needs the top left corner with a curled arrow to the left (go back) | 12:27 |
| julianol1ver | tigert: hmm.. does the space 'between' icons count as outside? | 12:27 |
| tigert | no :) | 12:27 |
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| tigert | that wouldnt make sense | 12:27 |
| julianol1ver | ;) | 12:27 |
| lardman | morning | 12:28 |
| lardman | quick debian question, using .install files in my debian dir, I'm getting an error like this: dh_install: libzbar0 missing files (/usr/lib/libzbar.so.*), aborting | 12:28 |
| lardman | what should I be looking at? | 12:28 |
| julianol1ver | tigert: of course, but the gap between them is almost as large as the gap at the top.. hence the possibility for a logical break. | 12:28 |
| odin_ | a button in the top left cornet would not make any sense ? | 12:28 |
| tigert | top left corner does have a button already | 12:29 |
| odin_ | also half the websites loaded into it are down or not yes available | 12:29 |
| julianol1ver | tigert: it's not visible here.. | 12:29 |
| tigert | it toggles between task switcher and launcher | 12:29 |
| tigert | if you have open apps | 12:29 |
| tigert | no wait | 12:29 |
| tigert | you are right | 12:29 |
| tigert | its just in the switcher | 12:29 |
| tigert | but thats the thing | 12:29 |
| odin_ | no I mean one that is either visible all the time.... or visible for a moment when you enter the launcher screen and fades away... just so the user knows how to get back | 12:30 |
| tigert | people learned to use the "tap on outside to close" | 12:30 |
| tigert | so there is no real need for a button there | 12:30 |
| RST38h | suihkulokki,tigert: The menu stuff has been discussed here a few times, the #maemo consensus has been (I think) that you should use "filters" as the top level of the app menus | 12:30 |
| tigert | = cleaner ui | 12:30 |
| tigert | less clutter | 12:30 |
| tigert | (heh, pun not intended :)) | 12:30 |
| tigert | as the launcher uses "clutter" toolkit ;) | 12:30 |
| RST38h | tigert: Funnily, some dialogs cannot be closed by tapping outside =) | 12:30 |
| tigert | RST38h: those are confirmation dialogs | 12:30 |
| * RST38h hit this problem a few weeks ago, still does not know how to fix it | 12:30 | |
| tigert | and yeah, I know | 12:30 |
| tigert | those dont have "cancel" | 12:31 |
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| tigert | but you need to do a choice | 12:31 |
| * lardman thinks it might be the first / | 12:31 | |
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| odin_ | RST38h, the user should always have the right to cancel any operation back to some point, if the design of the work flow is such that programming didn't allow that, then the work flow of the task needs to be fixed so it can | 12:32 |
| sp3000 | yeah the / is suspicious but I don't really remember my packagings | 12:32 |
| suihkulokki | RST38h: for example have a pannable area with the common settings and then a checkbox "advanced settings" which adds when checked more settings to the end of pannable list? | 12:32 |
| Jaffa | tigert: In particular the MU updates notification has options of "Ignore" or "Continue". What if I want to defer by cancelling? | 12:32 |
| * julianol1ver hopes this channel is logged. | 12:32 | |
| lardman | I like the application manager installing dialog which can't be closed by tapping outside, but at least has a Cancel button, but it's always greyed out | 12:33 |
| Jaffa | julianol1ver: See th topic | 12:33 |
| tarelerulz | I know maemo is Linux phone so it all about chose and those chose are limitless ,but what about the basic features of a smart phone . Making phone calls , texting people , Listening to song or two , maybe movies . Is that all easy and fast to do ? | 12:34 |
| odin_ | should the "Nokia System Software Updates" catalog be offline ? | 12:34 |
| Jaffa | tarelerulz: Yes. | 12:34 |
| lardman | if I'm not using CDBS (yay!), how can I get DEB_DH_INSTALL_SOURCEDIR to work? | 12:34 |
| odin_ | at https://downloads.maemo.nokia.com/fremantle/203 | 12:34 |
| Jaffa | tarelerulz: Only big gap is, perhaps, MMS | 12:35 |
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| tarelerulz | Is there like websites to define all the terms one need to know to understand phones. What the types of networks (3g) , who makes phones , carries | 12:36 |
| odin_ | access denied and hosted by a248.e.akamai.net (guess you are expecting some traffic on it) | 12:36 |
| julianol1ver | Jaffa: good news | 12:37 |
| lardman | jeremiah: help! | 12:37 |
| lardman | ah, no qwerty either! | 12:37 |
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| Jaffa | tarelerulz: gsmarena.com maybe | 12:39 |
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| jeremiah | lardman: Hi! | 12:41 |
| lardman | hey | 12:41 |
| jeremiah | lardman: how goes the wonderful world of packaginge? | 12:42 |
| jeremiah | :) | 12:42 |
| lardman | You never know, I may have fixed it myself, but probably not | 12:42 |
| jeremiah | Knowing you, I bet you fixed it, but what was _it_? | 12:42 |
| lardman | dh_install by default looks for the files to move in debian/<package name>? | 12:42 |
| lardman | ah, error in dh_install, not being able to find files | 12:42 |
| jeremiah | I'd have to read the code to be certain? | 12:42 |
| lardman | s/in/using | 12:42 |
| jeremiah | But I can do that now | 12:42 |
| lardman | wait one, I'll see if this works | 12:43 |
| jeremiah | okay | 12:43 |
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| lardman | ah no, f ailed again | 12:43 |
| lardman | :) | 12:43 |
| lardman | will pastebin rules for you | 12:43 |
| jeremiah | debian/package.install | 12:43 |
| lardman | http://maemo.pastebin.com/m47635d97 | 12:44 |
| jeremiah | List the files to install into each package and the directory they should be installed to. | 12:44 |
| lardman | yeah, I have lots of debian/package-this-that.install files | 12:44 |
| jeremiah | ah okay. | 12:44 |
| lardman | yep, e.g. | 12:44 |
| lardman | usr/include/zbar/QZBar*.h | 12:44 |
| lardman | usr/lib/libzbarqt.la | 12:44 |
| lardman | usr/lib/libzbarqt.a | 12:44 |
| lardman | usr/lib/libzbarqt.so | 12:44 |
| lardman | usr/lib/pkgconfig/zbar-qt.pc | 12:44 |
| lardman | I removed the leading / as some .install files don't seem to use it (working ones) | 12:44 |
| jeremiah | So you are using dh_install --fail-missing | 12:45 |
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| jeremiah | And that is where you are seeing errrors? | 12:45 |
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| jeremiah | errrrrrors | 12:45 |
| lardman | I guess so | 12:45 |
| lardman | the error is: dh_install: libzbar0 missing files (usr/lib/libzbar.so.*), aborting | 12:45 |
| lardman | which is sort of terminal | 12:45 |
| jeremiah | ahah | 12:45 |
| jeremiah | okay | 12:45 |
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| lardman | what is up with the bloody Debian naming scheme? | 12:46 |
| jeremiah | what do you mean? | 12:46 |
| jeremiah | heh | 12:46 |
| lardman | This lib is version 0.10.0, and so they name the library libzbar.so.o.o.2 | 12:46 |
| lardman | s/o/0 | 12:47 |
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| jeremiah | Not sure why, that is a bit curious. | 12:47 |
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| lardman | madness | 12:47 |
| lardman | shall I upload the packages so you can see the whole thing? | 12:47 |
| jeremiah | I suppose. | 12:47 |
| lardman | you don't sound so keen... ;) | 12:48 |
| jeremiah | Is this somewhere I can login? | 12:48 |
| lardman | just my uni website | 12:48 |
| lardman | you can download | 12:48 |
| jeremiah | I just think it might be easier if I go to the packages rather than the packages come to me | 12:48 |
| jeremiah | But if I can't login to the Uni, I can download | 12:48 |
| jeremiah | no biggie | 12:48 |
| jeremiah | I'll do that. | 12:48 |
| jeremiah | URL me up . . . | 12:48 |
| lardman | http://people.bath.ac.uk/enpsgp/nokia770/temp/ | 12:50 |
| lardman | serves me right for doing someone a favour and building the Qt bindings ;) | 12:51 |
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| jeremiah | ah yes, favors always cost. :) | 12:51 |
| lardman | well I did want to get rid of the python runtime dep anyway, so I can try killing two birds and missing myself | 12:52 |
| jeremiah | We are focusing just on the zbar stuff? | 12:53 |
| jeremiah | I don't need to download everything there? | 12:53 |
| jeremiah | lardcode! lulz | 12:53 |
| lardman | just zbar, but it builds the deps too | 12:54 |
| lardman | so you do need to download everything, and add libkitchen-sink too | 12:54 |
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| lardman | s/deps/bindings | 12:54 |
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| lardman | though actually the problem is probably generic, so you could try removing all the other build-depends and just try building libzbar0 | 12:56 |
| julianoliver | lardman: the problem with debian numbering you describe is related, AFAIK, to a discrepancy between the library author's versioning model and Debian's own. | 12:56 |
| julianoliver | Debian will try to keep a logical incremental numbering of *.so in the filesystem. | 12:56 |
| lardman | julianoliver: how do I fix it to make it sensible? | 12:57 |
| lardman | i.e. .so.0.10.0 | 12:57 |
| julianoliver | IMO there should be a *.so and then anything else should be a symlink back to that. in other words, a version 3 would be a mylib.so.3 -> mylib.so | 12:58 |
| lardman | agreed | 12:58 |
| julianoliver | lardman: i'd ask in the developer channel of #debian though.. i've been packaging for years but only as a hobby, and for my own work. | 12:58 |
| lardman | ah, I'll ask jeremiah :) | 12:59 |
| julianoliver | good idea ;) | 12:59 |
| jeremiah | Me? I am not prepared to wade into the thicket that is .so naming. :) | 12:59 |
| julianoliver | hehe | 12:59 |
| lardman | well do you know how to name it the way I want? | 12:59 |
| jeremiah | =] | 13:00 |
| jeremiah | symlink? | 13:00 |
| lardman | actually just building is more important atm | 13:00 |
| jeremiah | yeah, one fire at a time. | 13:00 |
| jeremiah | I have the entire dir contents downloaded. | 13:00 |
| lardman | yeah, is probably the Makefiles have been abused by those nasty debian packagers | 13:00 |
| lardman | oh, you only needed the zbar* stugg | 13:00 |
| lardman | ff | 13:00 |
| lardman | I thought you were talking about the building, sorry | 13:01 |
| jeremiah | What is zbar? | 13:01 |
| jeremiah | A bar code scanner? | 13:01 |
| lardman | barcode scanner backend | 13:01 |
| lardman | yep | 13:01 |
| jeremiah | cool | 13:01 |
| lardman | I use it in mbarcode | 13:01 |
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| jeremiah | There is lots of python in the code | 13:02 |
| johnx | woo! the proforma guy is gonna release some code for linux I think | 13:02 |
| jeremiah | How are you going to eliminate that as a depends? | 13:02 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: mm? | 13:02 |
| jeremiah | oh, all that stuff may just be bindings? | 13:02 |
| johnx | proforma: http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/23/cambridges-proforma-does-3d-scanning-with-any-stationary-webcam/ | 13:02 |
| lardman | jeremiah: the python stuff should be packaged into its own .deb, as it's just a binding | 13:02 |
| jeremiah | yeah, I see that there are lots of other language bindings here | 13:03 |
| lardman | happy to have Python as a Build-depends, but previously it was also being pulled in as a runtime dep | 13:03 |
| jeremiah | Shouldn't be packaged this way | 13:03 |
| jeremiah | EPACKAGEFAIL | 13:03 |
| lardman | but I've changed the control and .install files, to match the debian ones...... | 13:03 |
| jeremiah | oh well | 13:03 |
| lardman | why not, what's up with it? | 13:03 |
| jeremiah | Well, should one just create a library and package the bindings separately? | 13:03 |
| jeremiah | That makes more sense to me. | 13:03 |
| lardman | isn't that what it does? | 13:04 |
| jeremiah | Could be | 13:04 |
| jeremiah | But I think they should be physically separate packages. | 13:04 |
| lardman | they should be, look at the .install files and the control file | 13:04 |
| jeremiah | But I don't want to try to build them all in one go | 13:05 |
| jeremiah | but whatever, I'll try | 13:05 |
| lardman | oh I see | 13:05 |
| jeremiah | I mean, there are perl bindings here | 13:05 |
| lardman | well you could edit the control file to just build Package: libzbar0 | 13:05 |
| jeremiah | And I know that Nokia hacks the perl modules to peices in the device | 13:05 |
| lardman | Perl? | 13:05 |
| lardman | hmm, no Perl packages I can see | 13:05 |
| jeremiah | Yeah | 13:05 |
| jeremiah | under zbar-0.10 I see a perl dir | 13:06 |
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| hrw | morning | 13:06 |
| lardman | oh yeah | 13:06 |
| hrw | ~hail Marcell Lengyel | 13:06 |
| * infobot bows down to Marcell Lengyel and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" | 13:06 | |
| lardman | not sure it's even used | 13:06 |
| lardman | built ok on my Fremantle target until I got to the packaging | 13:06 |
| lizardo | lardman: make sure you don't have "${python:Depends}" on the Depends field if you don't want python on runtime , but just on build time | 13:06 |
| lizardo | brb | 13:06 |
| lardman | lizardo: will check, thanks | 13:06 |
| florian | hrw: uh? | 13:07 |
| jeremiah | Well, its just hard to diagnose problems if I don't know which of the six dozen packages is failing. | 13:07 |
| lardman | all of them | 13:07 |
| lardman | it's a generic problem with dh_install | 13:07 |
| lardman | it doesn't seem to find the debian/zbar directory into which the files are installed before being packaged | 13:07 |
| jeremiah | oh yeah - that is familiar | 13:08 |
| lardman | dh_install: libzbar0 missing files (usr/lib/libzbar.so.*), aborting | 13:08 |
| jeremiah | there is a workaround . . . | 13:08 |
| lardman | so that one, which is the main lib and will avoid you needing to download the deps, should show the problem | 13:08 |
| lardman | yeah the workaround I have is for CDBS though | 13:08 |
| lardman | DEB_DH_INSTALL_SOURCEDIR | 13:08 |
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| lardman | or at least I assume that CDBS does something with that | 13:09 |
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| jeremiah | CDBS is the antichrist, therefor I don't speak with it on a regular basis | 13:10 |
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| lardman | agreed | 13:10 |
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| jeremiah | In any case, let me try to build and poke. | 13:10 |
| lardman | but what I think I need is a non-CDBS version of that DEB_DH_INSTALL_SOURCEDIR fix | 13:10 |
| hrw | florian: after long long long time maemo repository directory indexes are sorted alphabetically | 13:10 |
| julianol2ver | johnx: i wonder how well that reconstruction works on non planar volumes. | 13:10 |
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| lardman | jeremiah: thanks | 13:11 |
| johnx | julianol2ver, as in curved things? | 13:11 |
| johnx | or a tangle of wires | 13:11 |
| florian | hrw: ah right | 13:11 |
| johnx | well, hopefully he'll release some code and we can all see for ourselves. I'm really stoked about seeing something like this on an N900 | 13:12 |
| florian | hrw: we should try to boost maemo support in oe a little bit | 13:12 |
| julianol2ver | johnx: yes, a face for example with less feature points. | 13:13 |
| johnx | it looks ok on the can | 13:13 |
| johnx | problem is a face doesn't follow the rigid body transforms they rely on | 13:13 |
| julianol2ver | johnx: i work in natural feature tracking/computer vision and so i too am very curious. | 13:13 |
| johnx | a mask would be an interesting test | 13:13 |
| SpeedEvil | johnx: The inverse would be even more shiny | 13:14 |
| SpeedEvil | johnx: Stationary object, moving camera. | 13:14 |
| julianol2ver | mesh generation from delauney triangles isn't necessarily so optimal either. most of those planes should just be a quad. needs an algorithm for face culling. | 13:14 |
| johnx | SpeedEvil, yeah, but they seem to have good reasons for doing things the way they do | 13:14 |
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| * RST38h moos scornfully | 13:15 | |
| johnx | julianol2ver, sadly, I'm totally underqualified to guess about stuff like this :) | 13:15 |
| SpeedEvil | johnx: I mean hold the n900 up, with both cameras going, and do a slow pan to make a pan, then move a bit around several times to do a 3d scene | 13:15 |
| julianol2ver | johnx: well it's great work. the more the merrier. | 13:16 |
| johnx | SpeedEvil, would definitely be cool, but the way they track feature points is through motion relative to the background it seems | 13:16 |
| SpeedEvil | johnx: Sure - but that works in the case the camera is in motion too | 13:16 |
| SpeedEvil | johnx: as I understand it anyway | 13:16 |
| SpeedEvil | But the motion would tend to be a lot slower - which may hurt | 13:17 |
| RST38h | Gentlemen, are you all talking about that silly iPhone app? | 13:17 |
| julianol2ver | SpeedEvil: the issue with the N900 for computer vision is that the camera capture rate is too low. what you describe will produce motion blur and thus bad track data. | 13:17 |
| johnx | RST38h, nah, http://www.engadget.com/2009/11/23/cambridges-proforma-does-3d-scanning-with-any-stationary-webcam/ | 13:17 |
| RST38h | kick-iphone-zealot-down-the-stairs-and-watch-him-cradle-his-iphone ? | 13:17 |
| RST38h | johnx: Ah that one... | 13:17 |
| SpeedEvil | julianol2ver: I was assuming the video camera, and the main camera at the same time. | 13:17 |
| julianol2ver | SpeedEvil: nonetheless, it has promise, particularly for Simultaneous Mapping and Tracking with Relocalisation. | 13:17 |
| TomaszD | woo, ac3-support is now in extras-devel :) | 13:18 |
| johnx | RST38h, he did an interview with some blog and said he was planning to release some code soonish | 13:18 |
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| SpeedEvil | julianol2ver: the video camera produces real-time pointing data, and helps it to register where the photos are | 13:18 |
| RST38h | johnx: the 3d scanning guy? | 13:18 |
| johnx | RST38h, yeah. pretty keen, huh? | 13:18 |
| SpeedEvil | http://mi.eng.cam.ac.uk/~qp202/ - register for more info on the algorithm, and a linux version when it come sout | 13:18 |
| RST38h | johnx: Well, it has been possible before, but has never been perfect and required LOTS of computing resources | 13:18 |
| RST38h | johnx: If the guy made it good enough to generate usable 3D models, on a desktop PC, that would be a breakthrough of sorts | 13:19 |
| johnx | it's still not perfect, but making it accessible to people with moderate hardware and releasing some source would be a very interesting development I think | 13:19 |
| SpeedEvil | ^realtime | 13:19 |
| RST38h | yea | 13:20 |
| johnx | the meshes still have some real weirdness, but the object is definitely recognizable | 13:20 |
| SpeedEvil | The fact that you can see 'oooh - the model's screwed up, it needs more data there' is nice | 13:20 |
| julianol2ver | johnx: that's due to the delauney triangles.. he just needs a pass that does corner finding and then projects quads after he has the 3d corners. | 13:20 |
| johnx | julianol2ver, sooo, what I'm getting is that you'd be interested to hack on this? :D | 13:21 |
| SpeedEvil | Lots of this stuff is 'easy' - if you've read all the papers, and have the maths skills. | 13:21 |
| julianol2ver | johnx: it's easy enough for it to be uninteresting for a clever chap like that to implement ;) | 13:21 |
| julianol2ver | johnx: for sure, if it's open. i'm working on Augmented Reality for Maemo5 atm.. it's a long road though, for ARM. Intel has the computer vision space wrapped up.. | 13:22 |
| hrw | florian: idea is nice, but I wait for device before doing anything related to maemo5 | 13:22 |
| jeremiah | lardman: Sorry - Tero Kojo contacted me on jabber so just chatting with him a bit . . . | 13:23 |
| lardman | jeremiah: np | 13:23 |
| florian | hrw: We all wait for the same :-) | 13:23 |
| johnx | julianol2ver, very cool. I mainly follow these sorts of things (3D scanning, AR) as an awed user, rather than a dev :) | 13:24 |
| lardman | what does one have to do to promote from extras-devel to testing? | 13:24 |
| lardman | is there some sort of test, etc., or is it down to me? | 13:24 |
| julianol2ver | johnx: most computer vision, likely including that above, is based on OpenCV. LibCVD offers a bright future though for advanced visual tracking on ARM Cortex A8. we just need more algorithms and high-level abstractions in there to compete with OpenCV. | 13:24 |
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| julianol2ver | johnx: see oxfords PTAM, for instance. this uses LibCVD. | 13:25 |
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| hrw | florian: ddp? | 13:25 |
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| florian | hrw: yes | 13:26 |
| johnx | anyways, gonna catch some sleep for now. good talking with you julianol2ver | 13:27 |
| johnx | 'night all | 13:27 |
| hrw | florian: when I wrote my last blog post about ddp I did not expected that it becames so popular | 13:27 |
| lardman | night johnx | 13:28 |
| julianol2ver | johnx: night | 13:28 |
| tarelerulz | Why can't you get maemo device such as the n900 in the us ? It looks better then both android and webos ? | 13:30 |
| florian | hrw: heh | 13:31 |
| SpeedEvil | tarelerulz: you can | 13:31 |
| SpeedEvil | tarelerulz: nokia.com | 13:31 |
| tarelerulz | Why then is every thing I read about unlocked phones ? | 13:31 |
| SpeedEvil | tarelerulz: you can get it. It's not subsidised - but you can get it. | 13:32 |
| tarelerulz | Is unlocking the same as rooting and jailbraking ? | 13:33 |
| glass_ | if unlocking refers to sim-lock removal, no | 13:33 |
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| tarelerulz | So, a locked sim-card mean you can't use the phone on other phone networks ? | 13:34 |
| SpeedEvil | tarelerulz: yes | 13:34 |
| SpeedEvil | tarelerulz: well - a locked phone | 13:34 |
| SpeedEvil | tarelerulz: It means replacing the SIM card with one from anotehr network won't work | 13:35 |
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| florian | hrw: I have played with the SDK a little bit too. Tested the Qt integration. Apart from the fact that the installation procedure of the SDK is still a pain like in the early beginning its technically the most interesting platform to develop for. | 13:36 |
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| VDVsx | florian, you can install it now via a GUI app :) | 13:37 |
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| florian | VDVsx: Ah right, I have seen some menu entry for this in Esbox. Or is there anythign else? | 13:37 |
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| florian | VDVsx: I was testing the Qt instructions which did not cover this yet. | 13:38 |
| VDVsx | florian, is there a PyQt app that install everything, even Qt, I think | 13:39 |
| pillar | I would be interested in that as well, I am just trying to get Qt development environment setup | 13:39 |
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| VDVsx | not the last Qt, but the one shipped with the devices | 13:39 |
| Bleadof | 4.5.3 | 13:39 |
| Bleadof | I suspect that when 4.6 comes out it'll be released as an update as well. :) | 13:40 |
| VDVsx | it's here: http://www.forum.nokia.com/info/sw.nokia.com/id/c05693a1-265c-4c7f-a389-fc227db4c465/Maemo_5_SDK.html | 13:40 |
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| pillar | I tried to install 4.6 to the device, but it is complaining about some opengl dependencies | 13:41 |
| hrw | florian: I just took official virtualization image with sdk | 13:41 |
| VDVsx | pillar, works here, without any issue so far | 13:41 |
| hrw | florian: and after 'apt-get update/upgrade' it even works | 13:41 |
| odin_ | it must be christmas already... N900, E72 and 16Gb microSD Class6 all in 24hours | 13:42 |
| VDVsx | pillar, I'm using the packages available at -devel | 13:42 |
| florian | hrw: did you ever see the nice Qt cross compiling instructions using OE to create a toolchain? | 13:42 |
| * odin_ 's N900 is going offline... for storage updates | 13:42 | |
| hrw | florian: nope | 13:42 |
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| hrw | florian: but I wrote my first Qt application finally | 13:43 |
| pillar | VDsx weird.. | 13:43 |
| hrw | florian: first from scratch one | 13:43 |
| florian | hrw: http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/09/10/cross-compiling-qtx11/ | 13:43 |
| florian | modern computers seem to be too fast :) | 13:44 |
| lardman | jeremiah: I'm thinking about dh_install --sourcedir= | 13:45 |
| pillar | the packages it is complaining are libgles2-sgx-img-dev and opengles-sgx-img-common-dev | 13:45 |
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| odin_ | can the web-browser password dialogs be made to work like the password widget (show the character briefly before "*" ) | 13:47 |
| viggi | doesn't that kinda beat the purpose of the starthingys? | 13:47 |
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| odin_ | well star thingys on a mobile device are kind of pointless... I mean a VDU/LCD/monitor someone can at least see if they stand close enough behind | 13:48 |
| * RST38h wonders when to expect KOffice for Maemo | 13:48 | |
| odin_ | wow how did they make 16Gb so small ? | 13:49 |
| pillar | I second the need for the password fields to show the characters for a second before stars | 13:50 |
| Mek | RST38h: hopefully shortly after a new official qt is released for maemo... | 13:50 |
| hrw | florian: nice | 13:50 |
| odin_ | pillar, maybe I open my first bug/enh report, I have signed up to everything this morning :) | 13:51 |
| RST38h | Mek: any idea of the date? | 13:51 |
| hrw | odin_: report, report - I will have less to report ;) | 13:51 |
| odin_ | does the platform have a "secure password storage API" ? | 13:52 |
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| pillar | odin sounds good | 13:52 |
| odin_ | one which is locked/encryped to the pin/device lock ? | 13:52 |
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| Mek | RST38h: 'soon'... | 13:52 |
| vasily_pupkin | hi | 13:52 |
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| vasily_pupkin | anybody know, how can i toggle preventing black screen? | 13:53 |
| RST38h | you want to disable screen blanking? | 13:54 |
| vasily_pupkin | i want to enable it, when some stupid program don't do it by itself :] | 13:54 |
| pillar | I am hoping that 'soon' will also include integration to QtCreator so that you can run/debug QtApps in scratchbox from the ide | 13:54 |
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| kalikiana | vasily_pupkin, it's not something application do by themselves | 13:56 |
| kalikiana | it depends on whether you enable or disable it | 13:56 |
| kalikiana | if at all, apps can request to unblank the screen | 13:56 |
| vasily_pupkin | when i start digia@scene, mplayer they disable screen blacking | 13:57 |
| vasily_pupkin | sometimes mplayer not enable it, for example after crash | 13:57 |
| vasily_pupkin | and i run digia@scene, and then close it, and then all ok :] | 13:57 |
| kalikiana | then you should tell the developers to let you disable that | 13:58 |
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| vasily_pupkin | hm. i thought that screen blacking - platform feature | 13:58 |
| kalikiana | yes, unless an application says "please don't" :-) | 13:59 |
| vasily_pupkin | em, is there any way manually say - YES, DO IT TO ME? :D | 14:00 |
| odin_ | should the URL https://downloads.maemo.nokia.com/fremantle/203 for the "Nokia System Software Updates" catalog be offline, or returning Access Denied to me ? maybe my phone has wrong URL shipped ? | 14:01 |
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| lardman | jeremiah: looks to have worked, just need to remove the --fail-missing too otherwise it fails as some docs are not packaged | 14:03 |
| zaheerm | [blatant] i need one more vote for zoutube before it hits the magical 10, anyone fancy testing it? http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/zoutube/0.1-18/ | 14:03 |
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| odin_ | my 16Gb mem card only has 14.83Gb free ? must I have VFAT on that ? | 14:06 |
| jeremiah | aha | 14:07 |
| jeremiah | lardman: Good to hear. | 14:08 |
| jeremiah | I just got out of the shower. | 14:08 |
| odin_ | jffs2.ko ? isn't that like the proper one ? | 14:08 |
| jeremiah | So I haven't been hacking on the package much | 14:08 |
| lardman | lol | 14:08 |
| lardman | waterproof kb | 14:08 |
| jeremiah | :( | 14:08 |
| jeremiah | Actually, I know a hacker who used their computer in the shower. | 14:09 |
| jeremiah | They would type with a toothbrush | 14:09 |
| Stskeeps | n900 | 14:09 |
| Stskeeps | ? | 14:09 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 14:09 |
| jeremiah | No, this was a perl hacker. | 14:09 |
| lardman | I'd get crinkly if I had to debug debianisation problems in the shower | 14:09 |
| Stskeeps | they shower? | 14:09 |
| jeremiah | They had to stop, doctor said it was just too much | 14:09 |
| * jeremiah smacks Stskeeps upside the head | 14:09 | |
| lardman | perl is bad for you | 14:09 |
| jeremiah | perl is the bomb! | 14:10 |
| jeremiah | =] | 14:10 |
| odin_ | UBIFS ? | 14:10 |
| lardman | s/the/da | 14:10 |
| lardman | oh come on Garage | 14:10 |
| jeremiah | garage? | 14:10 |
| jeremiah | Good luck | 14:10 |
| lardman | yeah, sloooooooow | 14:10 |
| jeremiah | It is just a couple of 770's strapped together | 14:10 |
| lardman | looks like one has responded :) | 14:11 |
| jeremiah | heh | 14:11 |
| jpjokela | odin_: I guess you are also comparing GiB againist GB, but of course there's also some filesystem overhead | 14:11 |
| jeremiah | lets hope it is the one with a login to the autobuilder! | 14:11 |
| lardman | lol, yes indeed | 14:12 |
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| jpjokela | odin_: Unless you are using latest (or is that out yet?) MacOS X, the OS likely reports size in GiB, while hardware manufacturers use GB to make it "sound bigger" | 14:12 |
| odin_ | 15558144 mmcblk0, 31264768 mmcblk1 (but it appears to have partitions...) 28315648 mmcblk1p1, 2097152 mmcblk1p2, 786432 mmcblk1p3 from /proc/partitions | 14:13 |
| jeremiah | Latest OS X is Snow Leopard. 10.6. | 14:13 |
| jpjokela | jebbajeb: Does it already display file sizes in GB (and MB, KB etc.) instead of industry standard GiB etc? | 14:14 |
| jpjokela | bah, wrong nick | 14:14 |
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| zaheerm | how can i find out what process keeps waking up the screen? | 14:14 |
| mece | perhaps OS X wants to make stuff look bigger too? | 14:15 |
| sijk | snow leopard uses GB (not GiB) | 14:17 |
| odin_ | the extra partitions on the new MMC are they required ? | 14:17 |
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| lardman | odin_: yes they are | 14:20 |
| lardman | odin_: spread between the two devices, /home lives in one, /home/MyDocs in another - what else is there? | 14:21 |
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| odin_ | no the 16Gb MMC I put into it... not the on-board storage (32Gb) | 14:21 |
| lardman | ah, probably not then | 14:21 |
| lardman | did it create them? | 14:21 |
| lardman | I've only got one partition on my card | 14:22 |
| odin_ | I have 2Gb /home, 28Gb /home/user/MyDocs and a 14.83Gb /media/mmc1 | 14:22 |
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| odin_ | but the /proc/partitions has: 15558144 mmcblk0, 31264768 mmcblk1 (but it appears to have partitions...) 28315648 mmcblk1p1, 2097152 mmcblk1p2, 786432 mmcblk1p3 from /proc/partitions | 14:22 |
| odin_ | its also funny the on-board size appears smaller but maybe sector size is diff ? as /proc/partitions counts sectors | 14:23 |
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| lardman | well if only the first partition has been mounted that's fair enough | 14:23 |
| lardman | but why are there 3 partitions on the external card? | 14:23 |
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| odin_ | yep thats right, I dunno thats how the manufactuer supplied it (Transcend, microSD class 6 !!!) | 14:23 |
| odin_ | maybe they are trying to brand me up.. with windows gizmos and shite... | 14:24 |
| lardman | as you say, perhaps a sector size optimisation? | 14:24 |
| lardman | it's not one of these cards that can be encrypted is it? | 14:24 |
| lardman | where the first partition is mounted to access the encryption tools, etc | 14:24 |
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| odin_ | I do not belive so | 14:26 |
| lardman | what are the sizes from /proc/partitions? MB? | 14:26 |
| lardman | kB even | 14:26 |
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| odin_ | ah no... mmc0 is the card I just added and mmc1 is the on-board MMC | 14:27 |
| lardman | ah yes, the wonders of the mmc numbering comes back :) | 14:28 |
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| odin_ | thats weird.. and a bug ??? 'df' reports /dev/mmcblk0p2 => /home, /dev/mmcblk0p1 => /home/user/MyDocs, /dev/mmcblk1p1 => /media/mmc1 | 14:28 |
| lardman | anyone with a Diablo sb target infront of them? | 14:29 |
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| lardman | what's the name of the python-dev package? | 14:29 |
| hrw | odin_: it is not a bug | 14:29 |
| odin_ | but 'dmesg' reports: mmc0: new high speed SDHC card at address aaaa, mmcblk0: mmc0:aaaa SU16G 14.8 GiB, mmcblk0: p1, ..... mmc1: new high speed MMC card at address 0001, mmcblk1: mmc1:0001 MMC32G 29.8 GiB, mmcblk1: p1 p2 p3 | 14:29 |
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| hrw | odin_: you used sd/mmc in linux powered device before? | 14:29 |
| lizardo | lardman: that's exactly that :) | 14:29 |
| lardman | hmm, just failed on that for me | 14:29 |
| lizardo | lardman: are you on fremantle ? | 14:30 |
| lardman | https://garage.maemo.org/builder/diablo/zbar_0.10-maemo2/armel.root.log.FAILED.txt | 14:30 |
| odin_ | hrw, nope not used multiple MMCs in linux before | 14:30 |
| lardman | yeah atm, but building for diablo too | 14:30 |
| odin_ | but 'df' reports one stem and 'dmesg' another, thats just wrong | 14:30 |
| jpjokela | sijk: And I guess Snow Leopard still cannot sort files according to their filesize in Finder? :-) | 14:30 |
| lizardo | lardman: ok, in diablo it is another one ... you have to use a "alternative dependency" | 14:30 |
| lizardo | lardman: let me check here | 14:30 |
| hrw | odin_: udev probably renames cards | 14:30 |
| lardman | lizardo: thanks, strange though, I thought that code had worked before | 14:30 |
| jpjokela | Well it can't display file size anyway, so... | 14:30 |
| lizardo | lardman: why do you need python-dev BTW ? | 14:31 |
| lizardo | lardman: does you package build a binding ? | 14:31 |
| lizardo | python binding I mean | 14:31 |
| lardman | yep | 14:31 |
| odin_ | hrw, renames "mmcblk0" as "mmcblk1" and then "mmcblk1" as "mmcblk0" .... that makes no sense | 14:31 |
| lizardo | lardman: try : Depends: python-dev | python2.5-dev | 14:31 |
| lardman | ok will do, thanks | 14:31 |
| lizardo | lardman: it should work for both Fremantle and Diablo | 14:32 |
| lardman | lizardo: is python-gtk2-dev also with the 2.5 then? | 14:32 |
| lizardo | lardman: yes, same thing : Depends : python-gtk2-dev | python2.5-gtk2-dev | 14:33 |
| lardman | yep, thanks | 14:33 |
| Myrtti | here's some friday lolz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2rGTXHvPCQ | 14:33 |
| lizardo | lardman: ooops , I meant "Build-Depends" | 14:33 |
| lizardo | lardman: not "Depends" :) | 14:33 |
| lardman | :) don't worry, I got that | 14:34 |
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| lardman | would anyone really write like that? | 14:35 |
| lardman | surely all the |\/\?\?|?\/\ would drive you mad? | 14:36 |
| * lardman refers to Myrtti's YouTube link above | 14:36 | |
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| mikedg-blau | maemo aint laemo! | 14:37 |
| tbf | oh, no: i don't want to upgrade to karmic :-( http://wiki.maemo.org/Building_packages_with_sbdmock | 14:37 |
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| mikedg-blau | https://instantrimshot.com | 14:37 |
| tbf | but seems python-pip only shows up in karmic and requires python2.6 :-( | 14:38 |
| tbf | mami! hilfe! | 14:38 |
| lardman | drat, built ok for Fremantle and not for Diablo, will have to bump version and upload again | 14:39 |
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| lardman | so there's maemo-version (iirc), which I use, but is it also possible to test in the rules file and see what version of the autobuilder you're running on | 14:41 |
| lardman | so that I can e.g. change the Makefile I'm usnig | 14:42 |
| lardman | or even better, can I check in the Makefile so I can change some defines? | 14:42 |
| th3_4zarado | usnig | 14:44 |
| lardman | s/usnig/using | 14:44 |
| th3_4zarado | Ops error | 14:44 |
| sijk | jpjokela: I need to try that later at home | 14:45 |
| sijk | but, it's unix, you may use ls :) | 14:45 |
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| lardman | ah /etc/maemo_version | 14:47 |
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| * Lorthirk wants a girl who speaks leet. | 14:47 | |
| Arkenoi | how do i change the alarm clock sound, where is it located? | 14:47 |
| SpeedEvil | Lorthirk: speaks? | 14:48 |
| Lorthirk | SpeedEvil: the video :) | 14:48 |
| Lorthirk | "I speak leet" | 14:49 |
| Lorthirk | 0:58 | 14:49 |
| frals | google sync not working is the new dealbreaker it seems ;D | 14:49 |
| Myrtti | I accidentally whole IRC, is it dangerous? | 14:50 |
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| Lorthirk | frals: i suspect it's something google-side | 14:50 |
| Myrtti | pft. leet. anyone can do that | 14:50 |
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| hrw | frals: lack of syncing with anything rather | 14:51 |
| lardman | hmm, so is awk the command to try for me to check whether /etc/maemo-version contains Fremantle? | 14:51 |
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| jpjokela | sijk: At least earlier versions can only show "amount of space used on disk", which of course is the "rounded up" size of the file, which makes sorting of files with "almost same size" not happen, as according to the OS, the size is the same | 14:55 |
| lopz | hi ;=) | 14:55 |
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| zaheerm | http://news.spong.com/article/19861/Nintendo-Investigates-Nokias-Potential-Copyright-Infringement?via=rss | 14:58 |
| Stskeeps | oh boy.. | 14:58 |
| wazd | mmmmmm | 14:58 |
| adeus | if [[ `cat /etc/meamo-version` == *Fremantle* ]] ; then echo "yes"; fi; | 14:59 |
| wazd | guys | 14:59 |
| wazd | http://tabletui.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/shot5.png | 14:59 |
| wazd | do you have white background there? | 14:59 |
| adeus | lardman, or you can do something like that | 14:59 |
| wazd | where "test white background" is written | 14:59 |
| wazd | aaaaah | 14:59 |
| wazd | stupid me :D | 14:59 |
| pekuja | zaheerm: Nintendo probably has a case there | 14:59 |
| wazd | sorry. nm :) | 14:59 |
| lardman | adeus: thanks :) | 14:59 |
| adeus | getting rid of the cat is left as a further exercise :) | 15:01 |
| lardman | hmm | 15:01 |
| lardman | so that will work in rules | 15:01 |
| lardman | but I imagine not in the Makefile itself | 15:02 |
| julianol2ver | adeus: if [[ `cat /etc/maemo_version` == *Fremantle* ]] ; then echo "yes"; fi; | 15:02 |
| julianol2ver | ^^ 2 typos | 15:02 |
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| lardman | :) | 15:02 |
| adeus | more exercises then | 15:02 |
| jpjokela | pekuja: But what to do about it? I mean, should Nokia introduce some DRM, that would somehow prevent any Nintendo emulators being ported to N900, but not anything else? | 15:03 |
| adeus | well my shell takes that in at least | 15:03 |
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| jpjokela | Of course the question is how "official" that is | 15:03 |
| julianol2ver | adeus: '/etc/meamo-version'? | 15:03 |
| julianol2ver | 13:55 < adeus> if [[ `cat /etc/meamo-version` == *Fremantle* ]] ; then echo "yes"; fi; | 15:04 |
| julianol2ver | anywho. no matter. | 15:04 |
| jpjokela | julianol2ver: After checking if such file exists in the first place (in case that would fail otherwise) | 15:04 |
| adeus | ah | 15:04 |
| glass_ | well. ubuntu has for example zsnes in it's repos, no? | 15:04 |
| jpjokela | glass_: Exactly. | 15:04 |
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| julianol2ver | jpjokela: the DRM problem/question is a big one.. | 15:04 |
| adeus | I didn't have that file so I naturally it had a typo :) | 15:04 |
| julianol2ver | hehe | 15:04 |
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| adeus | I tested with motd | 15:05 |
| jpjokela | julianol2ver: It's impossible, if the platform would be in any way "open" | 15:05 |
| lardman | yeah my fault for writing the wrong name | 15:05 |
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| julianoliver | jpjokela: indeed.. | 15:05 |
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| jpjokela | And taking that further, linux, windows, MacOS X, BSD, AmigaOS, MorphOS etc. have the same "problem" - they all can run various nintendo emulators | 15:06 |
| pekuja | jpjokela: I don't know. Actually, I thought at first that the potential lawsuit was about using Nintendo's trademarks in their official videos | 15:06 |
| jpjokela | But Nintendo hasn't really done much about that | 15:06 |
| jpjokela | But somehow now on N900 that is a problem | 15:06 |
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| jpjokela | pekuja: Indeed, if the video is official, then it might be a problem, or not. Just need to prove that the persons indeed legally own the roms, which were played? :) | 15:07 |
| pekuja | or it could be the fact that Nokia promoted the emulator | 15:07 |
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| pekuja | jpjokela: well, I'm not sure, I was thinkin the problem would be the use of Nintendo's products to promote Nokia's product, so a possible trademark issue | 15:08 |
| pekuja | jpjokela: I do think the video is official | 15:08 |
| tbf | afaik this only builds on software which was known and worked for ages | 15:08 |
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| julianoliver | hmm.. it'd be nice if maemo shipped with libnet. | 15:08 |
| tbf | so it could strike back to nintendo that they tolerated this software so far | 15:08 |
| pekuja | by the way, are the Nintendo emulators even comfy at all to use on N900? | 15:09 |
| jpjokela | pekuja: As long as you use good enough joystick, why not? :P | 15:09 |
| th3_4zarado | by the way, | 15:09 |
| pekuja | a joystick? | 15:09 |
| jpjokela | It has bluetooth, hasn't it? | 15:09 |
| pekuja | yeah | 15:09 |
| pekuja | ok, so you could use a PS3 or a Wii controller, I guess | 15:09 |
| tbf | julianoliver: find it's debian package, build it in sb, test it on device, upload it to extras-devel | 15:09 |
| Arkenoi | ..and video out | 15:10 |
| tbf | julianoliver: and promote it to testing once your app is ready | 15:10 |
| pekuja | I'm not sure if there are other Bluetooth gamepads out there | 15:10 |
| jpjokela | pekuja: Yes, and I guess there are other models aswell, but those are probably the 2 most common | 15:10 |
| pekuja | also, I think having a Bluetooth gamepad kinda ruins the portability of the device | 15:10 |
| julianoliver | tbf: i'm on the case! | 15:10 |
| pekuja | won't be playing Mario on a bus | 15:10 |
| jpjokela | pekuja: I am 100% sure, if nothing else, at least "unofficial clone controllers" for the mentioned platforms | 15:10 |
| lardman | ok, so this is no doubt pretty easy, but how do I execute a command in a Makefile, but to set a variable rather than in the rules sections | 15:10 |
| pekuja | jpjokela: good point | 15:11 |
| * Arkenoi played Elite on iNES on e90 | 15:11 | |
| pekuja | it might be nice as a kind of small home console if you're going somewhere with a TV | 15:11 |
| julianoliver | pekuja: this is what Pandora is aiming for, like the GamePark GP2X before that. | 15:12 |
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| jpjokela | and PSP aswell, although not "aimed" at the homebrew / emulation part of it | 15:13 |
| tarelerulz | Does http://www.jamendo.com , render right on a Pre ? It a free music site . It would be cool to know if you can download songs from it to your phone | 15:14 |
| pekuja | julianoliver: yeah, that's a pretty sweet device | 15:14 |
| pekuja | should be coming out soon... | 15:14 |
| tarelerulz | Does http://www.jamendo.com , render right on a n900 ? It a free music site . It would be cool to know if you can download songs from it to your phone | 15:14 |
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| tank-man | i am irc'ing from my phone and your text scrolled off, repeat once more, over :) | 15:16 |
| tbf | tarelerulz: you get the full firefox experience, so it should work | 15:16 |
| pekuja | it's not firefox | 15:16 |
| pekuja | it's mozilla | 15:16 |
| tbf | pekuja: some gecko, whatever | 15:16 |
| pekuja | or gecko, I suppose | 15:16 |
| lardman | nice, cat /etc/maemo-version` == *Fremantle* just segfautled sb | 15:17 |
| tbf | pekuja: just would be nice, if there would be some proper API for embedding kinetic scrolling browser into hildon/gtk apps | 15:17 |
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| tarelerulz | You all should check the site out . it is cool free music site . its creative commons | 15:20 |
| Stskeeps | the last part made me cringe for some reason | 15:21 |
| tarelerulz | Don't get me wrong there is alot of the music I don't like ,but it all ways good to have new sources | 15:21 |
| tbf | tarelerulz: the page renders, downloads work | 15:21 |
| tarelerulz | I find last.fm better | 15:21 |
| tbf | tarelerulz: audio preview seems to remain silent | 15:21 |
| tbf | tarelerulz: di.f | 15:22 |
| tbf | di.fm | 15:22 |
| tarelerulz | That is odd that is pretty big feature | 15:22 |
| tarelerulz | I am rocking Ubuntu 9.10 and firefox 3.5 and it works fine | 15:23 |
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| odin_ | zaheerm, lol re: Nintendo-Investigates-Nokias-Potential-Copyright-Infringement next it will be .... Sony-Investigates-Nokias-Potentia-Copyright-Infringement for allowing their device to play music ... here is a utube of a device playing music, but there is a disclaimer that you must provide your own MP3 files | 15:28 |
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| jpjokela | odin_: Well it's certain that teosto will complain about that and demand money :P | 15:29 |
| odin_ | teosto ? Tiesto ? | 15:30 |
| odin_ | unst unst! unst unst! | 15:30 |
| jpjokela | Ah, not from Finland :) | 15:30 |
| odin_ | he dutch guy I think | 15:31 |
| jpjokela | odin_: Well they represent artists and pay royalties to them, and collect media tax from f.ex. CD's, DVD's etc. | 15:31 |
| Shapeshifter | Did anyone of you n900 owning guys and girls try playing a webradio over GSM/3G and know how long it lasts? | 15:31 |
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| Stskeeps | oh, nokia removed the emulator video | 15:31 |
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| zaheerm | not surprised | 15:32 |
| pekuja | good idea | 15:32 |
| odin_ | yep I suspect corporate ass-cleaning | 15:32 |
| viggi | i've clearly missed something | 15:32 |
| odin_ | zaheerm, you don't look very far away from me (Internet wise) lol | 15:33 |
| tarelerulz | What games was being played on n900 ? really if its super mario brothers . its 20 year old game | 15:33 |
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| zaheerm | odin_, yah we share the same isp :) | 15:33 |
| odin_ | zaheerm, possible even the same city | 15:33 |
| odin_ | zaheerm, maybe the same street | 15:34 |
| zaheerm | well i'm in harrow in north west london | 15:34 |
| jpjokela | tarelerulz: Not the latest one, and many of the old ones have been re-released during the recent years | 15:34 |
| Shapeshifter | maybe you're the same person even. | 15:34 |
| hrw | bye | 15:34 |
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| zaheerm | Shapeshifter, i used to have a pc i named odin :) | 15:34 |
| Shapeshifter | so odin gained self conciousness and now wants an n900. | 15:34 |
| zaheerm | he's not getting mine :P | 15:34 |
| odin_ | yes I am your computer... I am talking to your though the super-web-inter-highway | 15:34 |
| pekuja | is there a Maemo developer oriented channel? I thought it was #maemo-dev but that seems to be empty | 15:35 |
| Shapeshifter | odin_: what's the answer to life, the universe and everthing? | 15:35 |
| zaheerm | pekuja, there are different channels for each of the frameworks i think | 15:35 |
| Shapeshifter | pekuja: most of the people here are devs. | 15:35 |
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| odin_ | Core Dumped | 15:35 |
| Shapeshifter | ^^ | 15:35 |
| pekuja | Shapeshifter: good point I suppose | 15:36 |
| jpjokela | pekuja: Something wrong with our... "orientation"? :P | 15:36 |
| pekuja | Shapeshifter: Maemo is pretty developer friendly to begin with. | 15:36 |
| pekuja | jpjokela: no problem :-P | 15:36 |
| tarelerulz | Shapeshifter , I know they are on the wii . Still is 20 year old game . Not like they are losing tones of money . Don't get me wrong I see your point . Plus Linux is so big , You can't control what everyone does with it. That really is not fiar | 15:36 |
| odin_ | Core Dumped .... execution stopped at line 42 .... rebooting | 15:36 |
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| julianoliver | Shapeshifter: anyway, the answer to your question is "42". | 15:37 |
| jpjokela | tarelerulz: "being actively sold" can make a big difference in a court case | 15:37 |
| odin_ | actually I don't know where I am... the GPS doesn't work | 15:37 |
| julianoliver | odin_: hehe, bet me to it ;) | 15:37 |
| jpjokela | Although I don't think this one would go that far | 15:37 |
| Shapeshifter | tarelerulz: I think you meant someone else. | 15:37 |
| pekuja | what I was mostly wondering if there are any 3D libraries/engines that currently work well on Maemo/N900? | 15:38 |
| pekuja | It seems like people are working on an OGLES2 backend for Ogre, but that's still a ways off | 15:38 |
| odin_ | well the specs say there is some 3D lib/kit already in the platform | 15:38 |
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| jpjokela | tarelerulz: And only the sky is the limit for amounts you can claim you lost due to actions of others | 15:38 |
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| odin_ | I think I shall concentrate my community efforts in the terminal/PuTTY/VNC/rdesktop area | 15:39 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: a good rdesktop could be nice, yeah | 15:40 |
| pekuja | odin_: well OpenGL ES 2.0 works of course | 15:40 |
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| pekuja | odin_: but that's low level | 15:40 |
| jpjokela | pekuja: Isn't OpenGL ES2 a 3D library? :P | 15:40 |
| tarelerulz | I see Nintendo's point trying to stop such ,but really I don't think they should go after Ubuntu if I play use emulators and play old nintendo games. The only way I can see them have anything to say if they add it in the offical repository or something like that . Ubuntu has all patent stuff if thirdparty repositorys | 15:40 |
| convulted | Hello all. If I have a gtk.Image displaying a pixbuf (which has been loaded from a PNG), can I easily draw a rectangle on top of the PNG? | 15:40 |
| pekuja | jpjokela: yes, it's true | 15:41 |
| pekuja | jpjokela: I was looking for something higher level :-P | 15:41 |
| jpjokela | pekuja: The idea of OpenGL is that you can code any kind of higher level code on top of it :-P | 15:41 |
| odin_ | well rdesktop already exists... so it will be just a UI port of it | 15:41 |
| pekuja | jpjokela: sure | 15:42 |
| odin_ | also... has OpenSSL the library been ported ? | 15:42 |
| Stskeeps | odin_: duh. part of platform | 15:42 |
| pekuja | jpjokela: it's a lot more work to roll my own though :-P | 15:42 |
| odin_ | well mozilla uses NSPR | 15:42 |
| tarelerulz | Since Maemo is Linux , you guys ever find flash work on 90% of what you try and not on odd site . Like last.fm media player don't work for me at all | 15:43 |
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| pekuja | jpjokela: I've been using the commercial Unity game engine lately, which is a really nice and easy to use higher level engine. I need to ease into the lower level stuff ;-) | 15:43 |
| pekuja | jpjokela: not that I haven't done lower level code in the past... but expectations change | 15:44 |
| odin_ | tarelerulz, does it require flash 10+ ? as I think its flash9 on meamo | 15:44 |
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| tarelerulz | Flash is such an odd thing . I have 10 and the site don't work right on my computer either . Nice that flash is not open source so not like you can fix it so it could or get real error | 15:46 |
| odin_ | dont worry Silverlight is coming !!!! | 15:46 |
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| tarelerulz | So what is Siverlight ? I just thought it was something like flash ,but made by someone else | 15:47 |
| Ceron^ | http://img.4chan.org/b/src/1259329330817.jpg anyone know this? | 15:47 |
| convulted | Anyone? Does no one use gtk.Image's? :) | 15:47 |
| odin_ | tarelerulz, something like it yep... well basically its "flash meets Java" but in the Microsoft flavor ..... there is JavaFX on the way but thats going to take a while for Sun to mess up | 15:48 |
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| sayjava | hello guys | 15:49 |
| odin_ | tarelerulz, so silverlight is tied to DotNET and probably ActiveX at the moment | 15:49 |
| sayjava | i have a question , is QT officially supported on the maemo platform? | 15:49 |
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| Stskeeps | sayjava: yes | 15:50 |
| tarelerulz | I understand the tech reason it might be better ,but One close source company how is that any different from flash . the reason flash sucks is they don't open the source . It is either it works or it don't . Been dealing with that for 2 years not much changed | 15:51 |
| sayjava | thanks , so I dont have to stick with gtk+ then | 15:51 |
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| zaheerm | silverlight is not tied to activex | 15:52 |
| Markus23 | silverlight is not opensource too | 15:53 |
| Markus23 | and there are both open source variants of both flash and silverlight | 15:53 |
| odin_ | that is correct, silverlight is not completely opern source | 15:54 |
| odin_ | much like DotNET is not completely open source | 15:54 |
| tarelerulz | Some open source is better then nothing . | 15:54 |
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| odin_ | the same as the N900 firmware it not completely open source | 15:55 |
| mikedg-blau | .nads! | 15:55 |
| tarelerulz | To you really think MS will be better by use then flash has done ? | 15:55 |
| mikedg-blau | i love .nads | 15:55 |
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| jpjokela | And afaik, all flash "openness" is 2 (probably more?) reverse-engineered open source decoders | 15:55 |
| odin_ | tarelerulz, nope, but it will kick adobe's butt some | 15:55 |
| AakashADP1 | mikedg-blau woahhh | 15:55 |
| AakashADP1 | woee | 15:55 |
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| odin_ | the whole point it to encourage commercial competition, thats the only way thing advance forward... | 15:56 |
| jpjokela | I thought flash was meant to be open sourced long ago, what happened to that? | 15:56 |
| odin_ | Java verses DotNET, Flash verses Silverlight, iPhone verses Andriod verses Maemo | 15:56 |
| SpeedEvil | jpjokela: the format is - sort-of as I understand it open | 15:56 |
| AakashADP1 | the topic lies 'scratchbox + xephyr is not an emu, doeny expect browser or term' | 15:56 |
| SpeedEvil | jpjokela: however there is no complete open-source implementation | 15:56 |
| AakashADP1 | theres a browser if u install the sdk with GUI installer | 15:56 |
| odin_ | Adobe prohibited you from making a "decoder" and "player" but you could make "authoring" tools | 15:57 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: err - no | 15:57 |
| odin_ | but they are coming around to a change of heart.... since Silverlight came around | 15:57 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: look at gnash | 15:57 |
| mgedmin | verses is what you have in poems | 15:57 |
| mgedmin | versus is the latin word you're looking for | 15:57 |
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| odin_ | sure there are a few project emulating parts of the revenged format, but so what.... | 15:58 |
| tarelerulz | Flash has all ways ran up my cpu more then it should . I tried a html 5 video an only 30% cpu . flash it like 60% for like one pages with video on it . | 15:58 |
| AakashADP1 | does maemo browser support html5? | 15:59 |
| odin_ | no the word is "verses" and no I am not speaking latin nor italian strangely | 15:59 |
| evo | hello, sometimes my virtual keyboard doesn't popup when I highlight the address input field of microb, especially when there're some specials chars in it, is it normal? TIA | 15:59 |
| lardman | odin_: no, it's actually versus | 16:00 |
| Stskeeps | evo: report it as a bug? | 16:00 |
| lardman | assuming you mean this line: Java verses DotNET, Flash verses Silverlight, iPhone verses Andriod verses Maemo | 16:00 |
| odin_ | ah well then 2 verses 1 must be right, LOL | 16:00 |
| mgedmin | my virutal keyboard often fails to pop up when I try to edit my IM status message | 16:00 |
| AakashADP1 | vs THE world | 16:00 |
| lardman | odin_: :) | 16:00 |
| AakashADP1 | odin hahah | 16:00 |
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| sayjava | @tareleruz , 60% you must be on windows | 16:01 |
| evo | Stskeeps: ok :) | 16:01 |
| sayjava | on the mac its about 90% | 16:01 |
| AakashADP1 | or osx lol | 16:01 |
| AakashADP1 | on a good day | 16:01 |
| tarelerulz | I mean I hope flash having other company fighting them , makes them do something better for Linux . Simple stuff like youtube works fine ,but there are tone of cool sites that use it . Chat sites , all sorts of stuff and if feature will work is hit or miss . It lame all ways upgrading your version just to view youtube or anything else | 16:02 |
| tarelerulz | I am Ubuntu 9.10 and 4 gb of ram . | 16:02 |
| tarelerulz | The part I hate the most you can't fix it . It just either works or not | 16:03 |
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| SpeedEvil | Sound has always been flaky for me in flash. | 16:03 |
| SpeedEvil | It sometimes works, it sometimes doesn't. | 16:03 |
| odin_ | tarelerulz, yes... more Linux paltform coverage and competition is making Adobe rethink their Linux is a 2nd class citizen stratagy | 16:03 |
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| tarelerulz | Flash just flaky on Linux . Never running into that on windows at all. Everything seems to work | 16:03 |
| Stskeeps | wb qwerty12 | 16:04 |
| qwerty12 | Thank you, Stskeeps | 16:04 |
| odin_ | nah I get IE crashing all the time on windows if I leave it open with flash adverts running on a few tabs | 16:04 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12: petrovich in extras now? | 16:04 |
| qwerty12 | Stskeeps: It is indeed, sir | 16:04 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12: congrats :) | 16:05 |
| qwerty12 | Thanks :) | 16:05 |
| convulted | qwerty12: hello! any experience with gtk.Image? | 16:06 |
| odin_ | does threading work on maemo ? no one did answer my how many cores is it ? 1 ? what is offloaded ? | 16:06 |
| qwerty12 | convulted: Hiya, no, sorry, all I've ever done is add one to a button... :\ | 16:07 |
| convulted | qwerty12: damn :) thanks anyway | 16:07 |
| AakashADP1 | lol | 16:07 |
| tarelerulz | odin_I hope Linux getting more popular make adobe act right . Like I said I hope html 5 comes out so no one company control the net that much at all. So Linux , Windows and mac all have the same net | 16:07 |
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| convulted | qwerty12: (you're my idea of a good hacker so i thought it was worth a shot asking you :) | 16:07 |
| AakashADP1 | that will be the day | 16:07 |
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| odin_ | tarelerulz, I think everyone non-MS is working that way, all MS are doing is being slow to react/fix/update as IE is not a profit center, but this is keeping back users a little bit | 16:08 |
| jpjokela | First thing I do on every single Firefox installation on any system, is "install FlashBlock plugin" :P | 16:08 |
| qwerty12 | jpjokela: AdBlock Plus, man! | 16:09 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12: a .install that contains a SSU repo and a package that adds it as a trusted domain using hildon-application-manager-config, think that would work? | 16:09 |
| AakashADP1 | haha | 16:09 |
| jpjokela | qwerty12: Thought it blocks just ads? And not "non-ad" flash files? | 16:09 |
| odin_ | SSU ? | 16:09 |
| jpjokela | I prefer having none of them open as default | 16:09 |
| tarelerulz | I think for the most part it will happen . The world seem to becoming more open . I watching business show . alot of the ideas of open source are being used other places . Maybe the old way of even having an os at all well go south . I mean if it becomes about the net it might not matter what os you run ,but what browser you run | 16:09 |
| qwerty12 | Stskeeps: Yes, but any chance of getting the package in Extras? | 16:09 |
| odin_ | ~explain SSU | 16:09 |
| odin_ | ~school-me-bot | 16:10 |
| AakashADP1 | pwnd | 16:10 |
| qwerty12 | jpjokela: True, true, but sometimes it's hard to tell what is more annoying nowadays :\ | 16:10 |
| qwerty12 | ~SSU | 16:10 |
| infobot | well, ssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/SSU | 16:10 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12: doesn't technically have to be | 16:10 |
| jpjokela | qwerty12: Of course might be the best to have both | 16:10 |
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| jpjokela | qwerty12: I don't mean adblock wouldn't be nice, I just personally think that flashblock is even more important | 16:10 |
| qwerty12 | jpjokela: *nod* - I actually have both installed :) | 16:11 |
| odin_ | ha ha... SSU thats a novel concept for the "Linux" platform, ha ha ha | 16:11 |
| qwerty12 | Stskeeps: More exposure that way. The update repo would have to be on another repo, certainly, but the "enabler" package would be awesome to have in Extras | 16:11 |
| jpjokela | qwerty12: And not only block, it makes it easier to download flash files | 16:11 |
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| qwerty12 | Alas, I don't see any SWF worth downloading nowadays but then again I hardly play games... :\ | 16:12 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12: so an enabler package would have to add a repo, and add key i guess.. and then it would appear as an update at some point? | 16:13 |
| AakashADP1 | same here | 16:13 |
| Stskeeps | once HAM checks for update | 16:13 |
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| Stskeeps | (and add package domain) | 16:13 |
| mgedmin | when will HAM be replaced by BACON? | 16:13 |
| convulted | mgedmin: I heard they will will be combined in SANDWICH | 16:14 |
| jpjokela | Hold-And-Modify :P | 16:14 |
| qwerty12 | Stskeeps: Yes... I guess we'd also have to manipulate H-A-M's settings a little; does the SSU repo hold the highest trust level there is? | 16:14 |
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| Stskeeps | qwerty12: hmm, checking | 16:15 |
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| AakashADP1 | banana splitz | 16:16 |
| qwerty12 | A Freenode speciality | 16:16 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12: 600 should do according to mvo | 16:16 |
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| qwerty12 | Stskeeps: For "our" repo? :) | 16:17 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 16:17 |
| qwerty12 | Ah, that's good | 16:17 |
| * julianoliver has just packaged libnet and ettercap for Maemo5 | 16:17 | |
| julianoliver | testing on N900 now.. | 16:17 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12: should be fairly trivial in a postinst, shouldn't it? | 16:18 |
| AakashADP1 | Cool. | 16:18 |
| qwerty12 | Stskeeps: For setting the trust level of the community SSU repo? Sure. It's just the editing of other repositories that scared me a little | 16:19 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12: ah, don't think we need to do that | 16:19 |
| Stskeeps | so we have steps of jeremiah making a signed repo, a extras-devel diablo package for adding SSU | 16:19 |
| qwerty12 | My N800 can be a guinea pig - the thing lies unused | 16:19 |
| AakashADP1 | Do you guys work for Nokia? Or are just community contributors? | 16:20 |
| Stskeeps | AakashADP1: a big mix | 16:20 |
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| qwerty12 | AakashADP1: Community. I like trolling #maeom | 16:20 |
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| qwerty12 | #maemo, even. See? :-) | 16:20 |
| AakashADP1 | Ah I see :) | 16:20 |
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| AakashADP1 | Haha | 16:20 |
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| Stskeeps | AakashADP1: users, developers, community, hired community, subcontractors, subsubcontractors, employees | 16:21 |
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| julianoliver | AakashADP1: i'm an independent developer working in computer vision/AR currently targeting Maemo5. | 16:21 |
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| AakashADP1 | Nice | 16:21 |
| odin_ | with MMC kernel driver, can you force the erasure of flash blocks ? i.e. "secure delete" ? | 16:21 |
| julianoliver | (also a fan of Maemo5 more generally) | 16:21 |
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| SpeedEvil | odin_: you can never force anything with MMC devices | 16:22 |
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| odin_ | "chaddr +s file.dat" | 16:22 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: they hide the internal flash structure from the kernel | 16:22 |
| mgedmin | also, how can you be sure other block don't contain copies of your sensitive data? | 16:22 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: encrypt, and throw away the key | 16:22 |
| odin_ | so there is just no way to override that ? | 16:22 |
| zaheerm | qwerty12, petrovich is really nice, thanks | 16:22 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: nope | 16:22 |
| mgedmin | the only way to securely delete things is dropping your N900 into a volcano | 16:22 |
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| odin_ | does the phone have some non-flash based NVRAM ? | 16:23 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: The mmc/sd hardware won't let you access individual blocks - and may have moved your data from a failing block | 16:23 |
| odin_ | like EEPROM | 16:23 |
| qwerty12 | zaheerm: Cool, thanks. Glad to see zoutube got promoted :) | 16:23 |
| zaheerm | qwerty12, it did? | 16:23 |
| qwerty12 | zaheerm: Hmm, maybe not. But you have 11 votes =) | 16:23 |
| zaheerm | it needs one more vote to hit 10 | 16:23 |
| zaheerm | oh i do? | 16:23 |
| odin_ | no I am thinking through "secure password storage API", but need to store some data somewhere which will be erased when the master key changes | 16:23 |
| AakashADP1 | EEPROM, havent heard of that word since working with microcontrollers | 16:23 |
| zaheerm | qwerty12, cool, so how does it get into extras then? :) | 16:24 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: RAM? | 16:24 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: Oh - you mean for the disk key | 16:24 |
| odin_ | so yes can encrypt and throw away the key, by using both a password and a random salt, but it needs to be stored somwhere which has "asured erasure" | 16:24 |
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| SpeedEvil | odin_: Or the encryption key used together with the users secret to form the decryption key, but which the user does not know. | 16:25 |
| qwerty12 | zaheerm: You should see a promote button on the interface, now. Press it, wait a while (read: Keep F5'ing maemo.org) to see if it appears in the application list, add screenshots and you're done :) | 16:25 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: It depends. | 16:25 |
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| odin_ | yes... 1 sector of flash as a file is the data, this data is always encrypted with a new random session key everytime it is changed, the session key is in the NVRAM/EEPROM along with something that can be used to verify the key (like a CRC check) | 16:26 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: I think you are guaranteed to never be able to recover 512 bytes that you overwrite through the normal SD/MMC interface | 16:26 |
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| zaheerm | qwerty12, it shows 0 out of 10 now when i look at the page :( | 16:26 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: however - if the user decaps the SD/MMC devices, and reads the flash, they may be able to in some small fraction of cases. | 16:26 |
| mgedmin | odin_, the upcoming Maemo security infrastructure has facilities for secure encrypted storage of user data | 16:27 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: Or if they know the magic incantation per manufacturer to read the flash 'raw' - which possibly exists. | 16:27 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, I don't understand the "overwrite" and the "never be able to recover", the info needs to be non-volatile and stored (and therefore recoveryable) | 16:27 |
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| SpeedEvil | odin_: If you overwrite a 512 byte sector holding the key. | 16:27 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, yes sure, they can read the flash raw, but.. if a random session key is used they wont have the session key to decode it | 16:27 |
| lbt | heh .... 2.6.32 kernel contributions.... Nokia241921.6% | 16:27 |
| zaheerm | qwerty12, and now back to 11/10 :) | 16:27 |
| qwerty12 | zaheerm: Behind a proxy, or something? 'Cause I promise http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/zoutube/0.1-18/ is showing 11 :) | 16:27 |
| lbt | Microsoft196961.3% | 16:27 |
| qwerty12 | zaheerm: Heh | 16:27 |
| zaheerm | must be temporary midgard bug or something | 16:28 |
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| Shapeshifter | lbt: where do you have that list from | 16:28 |
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| suihkulokki | lbt: bleh, contributing under staging/ shouldn't count :P | 16:29 |
| odin_ | mgedmin, this "Maemo security infrastrcture" is binary blob of open-source code ? (can it be audited) ? | 16:29 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: I mean - wear leveling and fault detection internal to the device may prevent you from erasing blocks if you are willing to go into dissasembly. | 16:29 |
| AakashADP1 | yeah zaheerm | 16:29 |
| AakashADP1 | 11/10 :) | 16:29 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: or rather - if your opponent is willing to dissasemble the device - spending some thousands. | 16:29 |
| mgedmin | odin_, IIRC it was going to be open-sourced | 16:29 |
| lbt | Shapeshifter: LWN.... subscribe ;) | 16:29 |
| viq | Ah, the above conversation strikes a topic that interests me - is there a way for full disk encryption on the N900 ? | 16:30 |
| mgedmin | odin_, check http://wiki.maemo.org/MaemoSecurity | 16:30 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, ok I understand that point... so make the design so it doesn't matter, i.e. a random session key for every change which is stored in "non-volatile and asured erasure memory place" | 16:30 |
| lbt | suihkulokki: true.... but it's interesting that they *only just* pipped Microsoft | 16:30 |
| Shapeshifter | lbt: mh. never read it. | 16:30 |
| mgedmin | its more or less vaporware right now, afaiu | 16:30 |
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| lbt | Shapeshifter: I like it a lot | 16:31 |
| Shapeshifter | I'm not much of a reader I admit. | 16:31 |
| suihkulokki | lbt: a codedrop vs fixes and changes in existing code | 16:31 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: You're far less likely to be able to recover several keys. | 16:31 |
| lbt | suihkulokki: what would numbers be without spin? | 16:31 |
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| odin_ | SpeedEvil, the user provides a key or pass phrase and such, this along with the session key is needed for perform decryption, then to verify all went well a checksum/hash (like 16 bits), this also allows verification of passphrase | 16:32 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: I would - if I was attempting this - use several 512 byte keys that are XOR'd together or something - as the 'real' key. | 16:32 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: wiping all of them is almost certain to wipe at least one - even at the lowest level of the device. | 16:32 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, opps s/16/160/ ^^ | 16:32 |
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| Stskeeps | hey GA | 16:33 |
| suihkulokki | lbt: same 1.9% still for nokia, but no ms code to see | 16:33 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, no it does not matter that you can recovery an OLD flash block using a logic analyser directly on the flash chip | 16:33 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, because you can't recovery the session key used to encrypt it, was was at least 160 bits long itself thats good enoough security | 16:33 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: If you can recover the session key because that has not been deleted as you thought though. | 16:34 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, then only thing you can have a hope of recoverying is the current flash block being actively used to contain the data | 16:34 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, but thats part of my spec... the session key is in an "assured erasure non-volatile ram" location | 16:34 |
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| Shapeshifter | lbt: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/publications/whowriteslinux.pdf found this. probably something similar to what LWM released, I guess. | 16:34 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, but you only need to find ~40 bytes of space somewhere to do it | 16:34 |
| Shapeshifter | probably older, nokia only has 0.6 on that lit | 16:35 |
| Shapeshifter | list | 16:35 |
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| lbt | Hey, cool.... #codes *can* be dialed :) from the cli: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5357#c17 | 16:35 |
| povbot | Bug 5357: Does not accept GSM (USSD) Codes starting with *# | 16:35 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: I don't think there is a user-accessible device that simply performs that function, unless you assume that there is no way to read the flash raw - which there may be - manufacturer debug codes from the flash controller driver maker. | 16:35 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: If you discount that as an attack, then that's fine. | 16:35 |
| lbt | Shapeshifter: yes, LWN tracks it on a per-kernel-release basis | 16:36 |
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| Shapeshifter | ^^ | 16:36 |
| lbt | it's interesting to see how linux is changing in the commercial world | 16:36 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, I am presuming that anyone wanting to try to get your information can take physical postession of the device and "try their best" which includes taking it apart and hookig wires upto the flash directly | 16:36 |
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| SpeedEvil | odin_: using one block of SD/mmc, and erasing it that is. | 16:36 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: Ah. Ok | 16:36 |
| TomaszD | alright, please test my ac3-support package, it's in extras-devel, report back if it can be promoted to testing | 16:36 |
| sgbirch | what is the sources.list entry to install n810 programs from extras-testing? | 16:37 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: In that case, your best bet is probably to spread the key across n blocks, and xor it to make the real key. | 16:37 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, which gstreamer plugin does it provide? | 16:37 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: Erasing n blocks is likely to erase or overwrite at least one of the key blocks. | 16:37 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, it provides just the necessary decoding library | 16:38 |
| TomaszD | I believe it's liba52 | 16:38 |
| TomaszD | but I might be wrong about the deps, so I need someone to test on a clean device | 16:38 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, so you need to provide gstreamer0.10-a52dec | 16:38 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, just seems a wate when just 40bytes of EEPROM Will do... the USB port on the bottom, is it a fully function USB ? but USB is not peer to peer is it ? | 16:38 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, i.e. can I attach some kind of credit card reader to it ? | 16:38 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: no, it is not a host-mode USB | 16:38 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, or add it to an existing packasge | 16:38 |
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| SpeedEvil | odin_: Or at least not simply. | 16:38 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: Use a 2D barcode. | 16:39 |
| zaheerm | qwerty12, where is the page to upload screenshots? | 16:39 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, there is no such package when you search | 16:39 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: On a bit of rice paper, and eat the rice paper if you want to destroy it. | 16:39 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, yes but i am willing to make one for you :) | 16:39 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, what I know is that it works for me, I need reports | 16:39 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, lol 2D barcodes are "something you have" you still need "something you know" (i.e. a smart card PIN) | 16:39 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, but is it necessary for anything? | 16:39 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, it works for you in maemo's media player? | 16:39 |
| TomaszD | :) | 16:39 |
| TomaszD | yes | 16:39 |
| TomaszD | I register the mimetype with the package obviously | 16:40 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: I mean the 2D barcode is the equivalent of the key stored on the device | 16:40 |
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| TomaszD | just like ogg-support does | 16:40 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: It is required - along with the user password - to decrypt | 16:40 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, do you have gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg installed? | 16:40 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, yes the "something you have" component | 16:40 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, yes | 16:41 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, you have files that are just ac3 or you're talking about files that have ac3 in a container? | 16:41 |
| qwerty12 | zaheerm: When it appears on http://maemo.org/; sign in; click the zoutube link; then, in the big floaty grey toolbar, click Page->Edit and the section for uploading screenshots will be at the bottom | 16:41 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, so gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg already provides ffdec_ac3 gstreamer element | 16:41 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: There even exist secure instantly wipable optical key storage devices. http://www.amazon.co.uk/SecureKey/dp/B000E69YJI | 16:41 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, it gets a bit blury when you don't separate it from where the data you are protecting is, i.e. you are meant to keep the 3 parts separeted | 16:41 |
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| TomaszD | zaheerm, this just for the latter scenario | 16:41 |
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| zaheerm | TomaszD, then you donm't need to register any mimetype | 16:41 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, how do I audit those ? if anything I want a bluetooth smart card reader | 16:42 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: Data - on device - barcode - on neck-chain or ..., PIN - in memory | 16:42 |
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| odin_ | SpeedEvil, its really getting away from just having to supply the something you know to the N900 to unlock a keystore | 16:43 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, just by having gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg installed any files you have that contain ac3 that didn't play the audio in the media player will now play, no mimetype registration necessary | 16:43 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: fair enough. | 16:43 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, so it just might be better to have a package that depends on gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg that is named "More codecs" or something like that | 16:44 |
| sgbirch | hunting around .. it looks like extras-testing is only maemo5, was that not available on diablo? | 16:44 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, knowing that is the N900 fell into the wrong hands there is no way to recovery anything, unless they could crack the current key, i.e. they must not be able to use an old password from last week to crack a left-over-mmc block still not yet erased | 16:44 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, yah we should do something like that, a meta package to get as many codecs and containers supported as we can | 16:44 |
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| SpeedEvil | odin_: you're using one-time passwords? | 16:44 |
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| qwerty12 | sgbirch: Correct. People could just promote to Extras when the package maintainer (or anyone else, for that matter) wanted it in there for Diablo & Chinook | 16:45 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, so flv, mkv for containers not currently supported by default, and deps on all the gstreamer packages | 16:45 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, is there a matroska demuxer somewhere there? | 16:45 |
| Zerojayn900 | anyone with direct access to the repos awake? | 16:45 |
| Zerojayn900 | emergency situation | 16:45 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, it is not true that you can play video with ac-3 audio without registering the mimetype and just having the ffmpeg package, just tested | 16:45 |
| sgbirch | qwerty12: oh .. ok. So the process now it devel -> testing -> extras (N900)? | 16:45 |
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| Zerojayn900 | x-fade ping | 16:46 |
| qwerty12 | sgbirch: Yep :) | 16:46 |
| Stskeeps | Zerojayn900: x-fade's still on holiday. | 16:46 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah: ^ | 16:46 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, what is the mimetype you are registering? | 16:46 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, -c Videos -d audio/ac3 | 16:46 |
| sgbirch | qwerty12: is there a n900 emulator? | 16:47 |
| TomaszD | oops, this is the removal command | 16:47 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, -c Videos -a audio/ac3 | 16:47 |
| TomaszD | :) | 16:47 |
| kalikiana | sgbirch, you don't need an emulator | 16:47 |
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| zaheerm | TomaszD, you have a sample file with ac3 somewhere downloadable ? | 16:47 |
| kalikiana | use scratchbox | 16:47 |
| Stskeeps | Zerojayn900: without having direct access, is it anything i could prod people about? | 16:47 |
| Zerojayn900 | anyway to remove my packages from the repos without them? | 16:47 |
| zaheerm | tho i could create one easily i guess :) | 16:47 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, not really, I'm using a bluray rip of a movie, avi with ac3 sound, tells me know that codec unsupported | 16:47 |
| sgbirch | kalikiana: can you run n900 programs on scratchbox? | 16:47 |
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| SpeedEvil | odin_: I want a nice tiny wearable linux box for this function. | 16:48 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, it's an easy process, I can do it, I already have the base | 16:48 |
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| zaheerm | TomaszD, i think it is more that the media daemons need restarting than the mimetype | 16:48 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: with the ability to dump all keys in hardware | 16:48 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, well yes/no ... the security problem is "loosing possession of the device, the N900" there should be no way to recovery the data that is protected without knowing the human-passphrase you need to key in. This includes surviving a recent passphase change, say last week you change passphrase because someone found it out, then it must be impossble to know that later to decode a previous code of the protected block | 16:48 |
| kalikiana | sgbirch, yep. except a few things like bluetooth it's like a n900 running on a normal i386 box | 16:48 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, the mimetype is only needed so it appears in the media player under videos section | 16:48 |
| Stskeeps | Zerojayn900: you got involved in the nintendo mess? | 16:48 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: I have a tentative design for ~$100 - but that's a bit much. | 16:48 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, and for that it needs just the avi's mimetype | 16:48 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, no, without it it's not recognised. | 16:48 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, ok i'm going to test it, give me a few minutes :) | 16:49 |
| Zerojayn900 | stskeeps is this mess more than just my wallpapers? emulators too? | 16:49 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, the avi file is recognised by default and indexed, it will not play however, because ac3 is not registered | 16:49 |
| TomaszD | even if you install the ffmpeg package | 16:49 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: Ah. You've also then got the problem of someone imaging the device, and brute forcing the keyphrase. So it's got to use quite a lot of CPU | 16:49 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, ok going to test that theory here | 16:49 |
| Stskeeps | Zerojayn900: i don't think wallpapers was part of it initially | 16:49 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, ok | 16:49 |
| odin_ | oppps. my last words were not very clear.... it must be impossible after a passphrase compromise to be able to use the information to decrypted an older block (which has not been erased yet) | 16:49 |
| TomaszD | I'm going to replace the dependency | 16:49 |
| Stskeeps | Zerojayn900: it was just about nokia publishing that stuff in their video from conversations.nokia.com (emulator) | 16:49 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: the multiple xor'd keys are probably good enough - I don't know enought about the exact design of the ewear leveling algorightms to say for absolute certain though. | 16:50 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, I dont care about brute forcing my 200bit key, go ahead and do that, thats not in the "security problem domain" trying to be solved | 16:50 |
| javispedro | ah, a mess. how cool. | 16:50 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: the human key | 16:50 |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: well they pulled the conversations.nokia.com video :P | 16:50 |
| Zerojayn900 | and my wallpapers will be too. | 16:51 |
| javispedro | Stskeeps: well it always seemed to me that was a bit... adventurous to say the least. | 16:51 |
| Stskeeps | Zerojayn900: from maemo.org? your choice or forced on you? | 16:51 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, I take it as a given that for the lifetime of the data's usefulness a 200bit key is going to be strong enough to not be concerned with brute forcing | 16:51 |
| Stskeeps | Zerojayn900: but anyway, i think jeremiah might be able to help you out, when he's around | 16:52 |
| SpeedEvil | odin_: you ahve a 200 bit human enterable key? | 16:52 |
| Robot101 | Zerojayn900: dude, if nokia needed to stop shipping something off their servers, they'd have deleted it already :P | 16:52 |
| Stskeeps | Robot101: there's a big issue in deleting stuff off maemo.org as it shows there's no seperation, though | 16:52 |
| Robot101 | thats "legal call big boss call sysadmin types rm" territory | 16:52 |
| odin_ | SpeedEvil, what I am trying to protect is a compromised passphrase, which is then changed, but then someone steals the device (knowing its flash based and knowing about wear leveling) and then uses the now learned compromised passphrase to try to decode an OLD version of the protected data block | 16:53 |
| Zerojayn900 | robot101 tell that to nokia then. | 16:53 |
| Robot101 | Stskeeps: even as an ISP, they have to comply with appropriate copyright law if sent the right legal stuff | 16:53 |
| Zerojayn900 | we're scrambling to find someone to do it. | 16:53 |
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| Robot101 | if this is a precaution and they're asking folks to do it voluntarily, then I guess its less urgent :) | 16:54 |
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| odin_ | SpeedEvil, (200bit key) yes I do, but thats not the real issue here | 16:54 |
| Robot101 | (or, they've lost the root password or some relevant person is on vacation :D) | 16:54 |
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| Stskeeps | Zerojayn900: best thing is really for tero to call jeremiah i guess, since jeremiah isn't answering here | 16:55 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, i have no ac3 mimetype added, my test file plays fine | 16:55 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, it is mpeg4 video, ac3 audio in avi | 16:55 |
| kalikiana | Robot101, if it's precaution, I think it wouldn't be wise to wait for the big admin to enforce it | 16:55 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, that's cool, so you just installed gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg? | 16:55 |
| kalikiana | it's not a nice situation but you probably don't want to start a fight over it | 16:56 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, yep, the mimetype registration is just for containers | 16:56 |
| Zerojayn900 | stskeeps yeah, emails went out to both. | 16:56 |
| Zerojayn900 | nervous that i could be in shit here. | 16:56 |
| Robot101 | kalikiana: sure, I'm just saying if it was a "holy fucking crap" moment, they'd already have pulled the plug until they could find someone with the right access :) | 16:56 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, does ffmpeg provide the matroska muxer? How can I find out? | 16:56 |
| Zerojayn900 | it is a holy crap moment. | 16:56 |
| TomaszD | *demuxer | 16:56 |
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| zaheerm | TomaszD, no it is provided by gstreamer0.10-plugins-good-extra i believe | 16:57 |
| kalikiana | Robot101, maybe the one with the plugin took it with him in vacation. so I'm happy they didn't shut it off temporarily | 16:57 |
| qwerty12 | Jaffa: ping | 16:57 |
| Stskeeps | andre__: got jeremiah's # anywhere? | 16:58 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, matroska requires the mimetype registration because it is a container so its mimetype is what the gstreamer typefinder will find | 16:58 |
| andre__ | Stskeeps, with # you mean.... phone number? or his bug ID? :-P | 16:59 |
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| Stskeeps | andre__: phone number | 16:59 |
| andre__ | Stskeeps, no, sorry | 16:59 |
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| Stskeeps | k | 16:59 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, is there another container that would need registering for the media player? I can work on a metapackage during the weekend | 16:59 |
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| zaheerm | TomaszD, well transport stream video/mpegts | 17:00 |
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| zaheerm | TomaszD, also gstreamer0.10-flv provides flvdemux and already does the mimetype stuff so you can dep on that in the meta | 17:01 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, go on, making notes :) | 17:01 |
| TomaszD | so I need gstreamer0.10-plugins-good-extra, gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg, register matroska and the mpeg2 transport stream | 17:02 |
| TomaszD | what about rmvb? | 17:02 |
| TomaszD | that seems popular | 17:02 |
| zaheerm | what is rmvb? | 17:02 |
| TomaszD | real media variable bitrate | 17:02 |
| Ceron^ | http://bambuser.com/channel/hessuj/broadcast/343725 | 17:03 |
| TomaszD | there should be a demuxer, my desktop plays them fine with gstreamer | 17:03 |
| zaheerm | yah its a variant of the real demuxer | 17:03 |
| danielwilms | hi...ferenc tries to get the file from the extras repo | 17:03 |
| Stskeeps | k | 17:03 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, application/vnd.rn-realmedia is the mimetype | 17:03 |
| Stskeeps | i prodded jeremiah on sms just now :P he's one of those rare people that has his contact details public | 17:04 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, so uh, this one needs registering, as it's a container, not a file format? | 17:04 |
| jeremiah | hello | 17:04 |
| Stskeeps | lo | 17:04 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, yes it needs registering because it's a container not a codec that is not there without a container | 17:04 |
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| jeremiah | Is there something people want to remove? | 17:04 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, however you'll need a package that contains rmdemux, i can work on that | 17:05 |
| jeremiah | Classic gaming wallpapers? | 17:05 |
| Stskeeps | Zerojayn900, danielwilms: ^ | 17:05 |
| TomaszD | from devel-extras jeremiah? you have that power? :) | 17:05 |
| danielwilms | jeremiah...could you take that over from ferenc?? | 17:05 |
| jeremiah | I'll remove it. :) | 17:05 |
| jeremiah | sure | 17:05 |
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| danielwilms | jeremiah...thx | 17:05 |
| TomaszD | jeremiah, please remove ac3-support, it will be superesed with a better solution | 17:06 |
| qwerty12 | jeremiah only uses his power for evil purposes | 17:06 |
| jeremiah | Is it diablo or fremantle? | 17:06 |
| TomaszD | fremantle | 17:06 |
| jeremiah | qwerty12: :P | 17:06 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, you can leave it to rot in extras-devel :) | 17:06 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, nooo! I don't want to see it | 17:06 |
| sgbirch | is the N900 UI developed with Qt or gtk? | 17:06 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: Could you lower the voting threshold already? | 17:06 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, fair enough :) | 17:06 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: Hasn't it been agreed weeks ago? | 17:06 |
| TomaszD | there is also duplication when it comes to "Recorder" and "Maemo Recorder", the latter one needs to be removed jeremiah | 17:06 |
| TomaszD | in fremantle ^ | 17:07 |
| lardman | what we need is the ability to prune our own uploads | 17:07 |
| qwerty12 | Hear, hear, lardman | 17:07 |
| TomaszD | also MaStory superseds a Maemo-branded thing... Maemo something... I forget | 17:07 |
| zaheerm | maemo-wordpy | 17:08 |
| TomaszD | right | 17:08 |
| TomaszD | so maemo-wordpy and maemo recorder need to go | 17:08 |
| jeremiah | Or just need renaming | 17:08 |
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| kalikiana | sgbirch, the launcher, switcher and windowing are clutter, the apps are gtk | 17:08 |
| TomaszD | jeremiah, no, they already have their renamed versions in the reop | 17:08 |
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| TomaszD | *repo | 17:08 |
| jeremiah | Oh, okay - then I will just remove them | 17:09 |
| jeremiah | What is the name of the class gaming wallpaper stuff? | 17:09 |
| sgbirch | kalikiana: ok. I gather N900+1 will be Qt though, is that correct? | 17:09 |
| jeremiah | oh, classic-gaming-wallpaper :P | 17:09 |
| TomaszD | jeremiah, also, this http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/liqcontrolpanel/0.1.2/ | 17:10 |
| TomaszD | the author himself wants it removed :) | 17:10 |
| kalikiana | sgbirch, yes, Nokia plans to use Qt primarily and Gtk as a community feature | 17:10 |
| TomaszD | ac3-support, maemo-wordpy, maemo-recorder, liqcontrolpanel is the full list I think jeremiah | 17:10 |
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| javispedro | heh, "The Independent" seems to be the first one that got "the mess"'s story. | 17:13 |
| jeremiah | Okay - I have removed the packages and the source from the repos, the Packages file should get updated soon | 17:13 |
| zaheerm | the independent is actually the best paper in the UK | 17:13 |
| TomaszD | jeremiah, thanks | 17:14 |
| jeremiah | Sure thing | 17:14 |
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| qwerty12 | zaheerm++ | 17:14 |
| qwerty12 | It's almost certain you won't see it in The Sun... | 17:14 |
| zaheerm | :) | 17:14 |
| javispedro | cause it seems the Mess was started by a UK PR | 17:15 |
| danielwilms | jeremiah thanks a lot! and have a nice and relaxed weekend now everyone ;) | 17:15 |
| Stskeeps | javispedro: nah.. there was an article before that i read last night | 17:15 |
| zaheerm | the sun might put a N900 shipping thread transcript :) | 17:15 |
| qwerty12 | You too, danielwilms; bye | 17:15 |
| qwerty12 | Sounds fitting :p | 17:15 |
| jeremiah | danielwilms: np, and good advice! | 17:15 |
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| jeremiah | oh qwerty12 | 17:15 |
| jeremiah | I want you to volunteer | 17:16 |
| jeremiah | for a sekkrit project | 17:16 |
| jeremiah | I want to put togther a "Packaging Strike Force" | 17:16 |
| jeremiah | A team to help people package stuff | 17:16 |
| jeremiah | There won't be much glory, and the work will be hard, | 17:17 |
| jeremiah | But you'll have that satisfied feeling at the end of the day. | 17:17 |
| lardman | assuming you don't lose a leg due to enemy action, etc. | 17:18 |
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| qwerty12 | But being in #maemo already gives me that warm, fuzzy feeling! :-) | 17:18 |
| jeremiah | This will be warmer and fuzzier | 17:18 |
| zaheerm | he gets cuddly toys? | 17:18 |
| jeremiah | Umm, no. | 17:19 |
| jeremiah | But he does get to SAVE THE FREE WORLD | 17:19 |
| jeremiah | by being a member of the Maemo Packaging Team! Or Package Strike Force! | 17:19 |
| qwerty12 | That's easy: Take weapon of choice and shoot anyone the FSF hates | 17:19 |
| zaheerm | like nokia? :) | 17:20 |
| qwerty12 | Oooh, good point. danielwilms may find his weekend not so nice and relaxing... | 17:21 |
| jeremiah | heh | 17:21 |
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| wazd | Oh my god | 17:22 |
| wazd | DDP answered me | 17:22 |
| Stskeeps | wow. | 17:22 |
| javispedro | hey, at least a bit of good news :) | 17:22 |
| lardman | did the clouds part? | 17:22 |
| Stskeeps | and they say "YOU RUSSIAN! YOU BAD! GO AWAY!"? | 17:22 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:22 |
| jeremiah | Isn't it spelled OMG? | 17:22 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: exactly :D | 17:22 |
| lardman | thunderbolt? | 17:22 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: Please note though! We are not allowed to ship any devices to Russia. | 17:22 |
| wazd | NOTE THOUGH, BASTARD! | 17:23 |
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| suihkulokki | "plz give us back the land you stole from us in ww2 and we'll give you a n900" :P | 17:23 |
| qwerty12 | wazd: Gonna get it shipped to Finland and go there, James Bond style? =) | 17:23 |
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| wazd | qwerty12: gonna capture some more Finlad, like Stalin, bwahahaha! | 17:23 |
| qwerty12 | Haha | 17:24 |
| Stskeeps | taking parts of finland, one n900 at a time.. | 17:24 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:24 |
| * lardman visualises wazd entering the harbour in a minisub | 17:24 | |
| tekojo | wazd contact qgil directly, he can do something about it | 17:24 |
| qwerty12 | wazd: Go to Karelia and put up a ton of Russian flags :p | 17:24 |
| RST38h | wazd: Shit, just order to some European address. Order to my US address. | 17:24 |
| RST38h | wazd: That will be delayed until January at least though | 17:24 |
| suihkulokki | order to guim guils work address and ask him to send it to you when recieving | 17:25 |
| RST38h | which probably won't work | 17:25 |
| * Flandry was going to comment on the N900 and miniusb before rereading that | 17:25 | |
| lardman | lol | 17:26 |
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| Myrtti | qwerty12: funny that, the Mainila shots were about 70 years ago, to day | 17:28 |
| Myrtti | "let's start WW3!" | 17:28 |
| Myrtti | oh, it was yesterday | 17:28 |
| Myrtti | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila | 17:28 |
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| qwerty12 | Heh, maybe not the wisest of plans, then... :\ | 17:28 |
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| * javispedro laughs at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=396152 | 17:29 | |
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| Zerojayn900 | lol | 17:30 |
| Zerojayn900 | worst timing in the world. | 17:30 |
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| Stskeeps | Zerojayn900: hope you won't get into any trouble over this issue. i love the wallpapers personally :P | 17:34 |
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| Stskeeps | right, split hell. | 17:35 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:35 |
| javispedro | ah, damn splits. | 17:35 |
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| Stskeeps | indeed | 17:38 |
| javispedro | " a bit noisy" pfft. | 17:39 |
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| RST38h | mhm | 17:41 |
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| * julianol1ver notes that his armel builds of libnet and ettercap work just fine on the N900 | 17:42 | |
| julianol1ver | now for libcvd.. | 17:42 |
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| RST38h | moo, Nix | 17:42 |
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| AakashADP1 | yo | 17:44 |
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| Stskeeps | wb VDVsx | 17:48 |
| VDVsx | Stskeeps, thanks :) | 17:48 |
| ertl | hi, I feel a bit stupid about asking it, but how is vkb supposed to work for url input field of microb? It works great for input forms, but it appears like 1 on 10 tries when I want to write an URL ... any hint? thanks | 17:48 |
| Stskeeps | ertl: what device? | 17:49 |
| ertl | n900 | 17:49 |
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| Stskeeps | using stylus or thumb? | 17:49 |
| ertl | using both | 17:50 |
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| VDVsx | ouch! | 17:50 |
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| asyik | hello | 17:51 |
| javispedro | ouch? :) | 17:51 |
| Stskeeps | ertl: actually i didn't try it out that hard | 17:51 |
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| AakashADP1 | hey | 17:51 |
| wazd | Well... | 17:51 |
| wazd | PC shows blank again | 17:51 |
| Stskeeps | wazd: video card issue? | 17:51 |
| ertl | when I tap the whole URL is selected, but then nothing happens | 17:52 |
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| wazd | Stskeeps: well... | 17:52 |
| Lorthirk | anyone can help me in finding some clues for this bug? https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6360 | 17:52 |
| povbot | Bug 6360: Headset problems | 17:52 |
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| Stskeeps | heh, reading about sending packages to russia | 17:55 |
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| Stskeeps | man, that looks like a mess.. | 17:55 |
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| wazd | Fuck! | 17:56 |
| wazd | STUPID ME | 17:56 |
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| Stskeeps | the cable fell out? | 17:56 |
| wazd | I forgot too check 12V cable properly | 17:56 |
| wazd | It was half-out | 17:57 |
| wazd | Damn... | 17:57 |
| Stskeeps | so it works again? | 17:57 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 17:57 |
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| wazd | Looks like | 17:57 |
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| wazd | But first time I'm sure it was bios | 17:58 |
| wazd | Or sabotage :D | 17:58 |
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| wazd_ | mehehe, I have floppy drive shown in My Computer :D\ | 18:02 |
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| mgedmin | and I have a CD/DVD Drive as well as cdrom0 in my Computer in nautilus | 18:03 |
| mgedmin | at least the floppy is finally gone | 18:03 |
| wazd_ | mgedmin: I forgot to disable it in new bios :) | 18:03 |
| wazd_ | Stskeeps: what you have read bout shipping to russia? :) | 18:04 |
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| Stskeeps | wazd_: something along the lines "if you want to ship something valuable, consider it gone" | 18:05 |
| qwerty12 | The Mafia want insurance money | 18:05 |
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| javispedro | well, ship him 1000 n900s and hope one of them arrives. | 18:06 |
| wazd_ | Stskeeps: well, that's not completely true | 18:07 |
| wazd_ | Stskeeps: I've successfuly received 2 shiny HP's in one package | 18:07 |
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| wazd_ | Stskeeps: brand new | 18:07 |
| Stskeeps | harry potter books aren't valuable ;) | 18:08 |
| * kalikiana grins | 18:08 | |
| wazd_ | Stskeeps: In russia you can buy a car for one!11 | 18:08 |
| wazd_ | sts :D | 18:08 |
| mgedmin | a car for a harry potter book? awesome! | 18:08 |
| qwerty12 | Stskeeps: But you can make a nice fire by lighting up the entire set! | 18:08 |
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| wazd_ | You just have to use ExpressMail or any kind of mail with tracking number | 18:09 |
| Flandry | heh fire | 18:09 |
| javispedro | I actually can believe a HP book being more valuable than a windows mobile gadget. | 18:09 |
| mgedmin | burn some heretics, right? | 18:09 |
| javispedro | ;) | 18:09 |
| mgedmin | gah, javispedro, don't make me think Hewlett-Packard is making netbooks now | 18:09 |
| Stskeeps | wazd_: do you plan of moving out of russia when you have your passport :P | 18:10 |
| wazd_ | mgedmin: I have one :D | 18:10 |
| Stskeeps | ? | 18:10 |
| Flandry | everyone sells netbooks | 18:10 |
| wazd_ | Stskeeps: If I'll have somewhere to go - sure :D | 18:10 |
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| Flandry | all made by foxconn or something though, probably :P | 18:10 |
| qwerty12 | wazd: Kazakhstan? | 18:10 |
| wazd_ | qwerty12: FFFffffuuuuu :) | 18:11 |
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| qwerty12 | wazd_: You said "somewhere" :P | 18:11 |
| jeremiah | qwerty12: Is that where you used to live? | 18:11 |
| qwerty12 | Anyway, according to Borat, they only hate the Uzbeks; not the Russians | 18:11 |
| jeremiah | qwerty is like a traditional Kazakh name. | 18:12 |
| jeremiah | Qwerty, Borat, you know. | 18:12 |
| Flandry | oh man, first wikipedia, now Borat | 18:12 |
| qwerty12 | Hehe | 18:12 |
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| jeremiah | High Five! | 18:13 |
| Jaffa | qwerty12: pong | 18:14 |
| qwerty12 | Jaffa: Are there any plans to get pH5's patch to Vala's hildon-1.vapi in Vala 0.7.8? | 18:15 |
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| lcukn900 | fscking virgin | 18:18 |
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| Stskeeps | mm? | 18:18 |
| qwerty12 | lcukn900: The DPI shit? | 18:18 |
| * lcukn900 hates typing virgin service status | 18:18 | |
| lardman | Jaffa: there was a patch too for the .vapi file for librest iirc | 18:18 |
| lcukn900 | im on bastard hold | 18:18 |
| lcukn900 | qwerty dpi? | 18:18 |
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| lcukn900 | can i use n900 3g as modem? | 18:19 |
| lcukn900 | for laptop | 18:19 |
| Stskeeps | afaik | 18:19 |
| Stskeeps | with pc suite | 18:19 |
| qwerty12 | lcukn900: Virgin want to use the Deep Packet Inspection shit to see what you're downloading. I told you Virgin was shit | 18:19 |
| lcukn900 | linux | 18:19 |
| lcukn900 | qwerty no my net has been flaky all day | 18:20 |
| frals | "PeterMaemo Forum Nokia and Maemo Marketing busy next week presenting developer opportunities next week in Paris, Mountain View, Stockholm and Barcelona" - anyone heard anything more about this? | 18:20 |
| range | Barcelona is the UX thingy, I guess. | 18:20 |
| lcukn900 | and mt desktop reacted strangly earlier just as i connecyed it blew up totally | 18:20 |
| lcukn900 | now i know why | 18:20 |
| lcukn900 | i didnt think dpi was in just yet | 18:21 |
| lcukn900 | i read about it last night | 18:21 |
| Jaffa | qwerty12: The patches for libhildon are supposed to be included; but apparently they haven't made it into the build (despite the files being patched by mud). | 18:21 |
| Jaffa | lardman: Is that Bundyo's? | 18:22 |
| dmj726 | http://anidel.blogspot.com/2009/10/n900-as-modem-for-ubuntu-910.html | 18:22 |
| qwerty12 | Jaffa: Evidently. | 18:22 |
| mgedmin | lcukn900, yes, you can use n900 as a 3g modem with linux, if you connect it with the usb cable in pc suite mode | 18:22 |
| mgedmin | network-manager autodetects it as a 3g usb modem iirc | 18:22 |
| lardman | Jaffa: no I don't think so, though someone on here | 18:22 |
| dmj726 | lcukn900: There's the tutorial for it | 18:22 |
| mgedmin | (1) plug in (2) click on 'connect' (3) done | 18:22 |
| lardman | Jaffa: he may not have submitted a patch of course.... | 18:22 |
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| mgedmin | well, maybe (2) is a bit more complicated | 18:23 |
| lardman | it was the name of the file, to match the lib I pushed to extras | 18:23 |
| lardman | Jaffa: will let you know | 18:23 |
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| lardman | bbiab | 18:23 |
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| Zerojayn900 | RST38h ping | 18:25 |
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| lcukn900 | virgin just told me net wont b back till 1130 | 18:27 |
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| tank-man | is it down cause they are installing deep packing inspection software? | 18:29 |
| * lbt shoots Aniello for giving so little information using so many bytes of image data... | 18:30 | |
| ShadowJK_ | My N900 arrived... and I can't play with it because I have to go to a company christmas party :-( | 18:30 |
| adeus | choices | 18:30 |
| ShadowJK_ | The courier left it with my father who was around... he asked "What have you ordered from holland? hash seeds?" | 18:31 |
| ShadowJK_ | :-/ | 18:31 |
| glass_ | "boohoo" | 18:31 |
| Robot101 | the N900 is way more addictive :) | 18:31 |
| qwerty12 | ShadowJK_: Take the N900 and charger with you =) | 18:31 |
| ShadowJK_ | nah | 18:31 |
| * lbt emails ShadowJK_'s dad and tips him the drug squad are coming | 18:31 | |
| ShadowJK_ | I'm too afraid of touching it before I get a screen protector | 18:32 |
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| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK_: Cling-film works | 18:32 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK_: not well - but it protects it. | 18:32 |
| qwerty12 | Screen protectors are for the weak! I never used one on the N800 and now its screen is rather shitty... | 18:32 |
| lbt | ShadowJK_: screen protector is not a problem :) | 18:32 |
| lbt | just take a polishing cloth with you | 18:32 |
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| lbt | no-one thinks I'm strange when I sit in my chair and polish my phone | 18:33 |
| lbt | at least no-one says anything | 18:33 |
| lcukn900 | they do | 18:33 |
| lcukn900 | lol | 18:33 |
| adeus | do you laugh frantically while you're doing it | 18:34 |
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| wazd | daaaamn | 18:39 |
| SpeedEvil | ? | 18:39 |
| wazd | windows profile corrupted | 18:39 |
| SpeedEvil | I've successfully avoided that for a decade. | 18:40 |
| wazd | Can I just work for a bit without local Armageddons please... | 18:40 |
| lcukn900 | lol wazd join the club ive got no net either | 18:40 |
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| wazd | SpeedEvil: I wonder why the hell it happens from time to time | 18:43 |
| SpeedEvil | wazd: I should really get up to speed with recent windows. | 18:43 |
| SpeedEvil | But then I need to sort out my drains too. | 18:43 |
| lcukn900 | recent windows are made of glass | 18:44 |
| Stskeeps | wazd: you could install linux, use gimp, but i would be afraid your brilliant designs would suffer :P | 18:44 |
| qwerty12 | But there's no fun in pirating Linux stuff | 18:44 |
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| qwerty12 | TomaszD: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=396345 | 18:45 |
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| lcukn900 | how on earth did we survive before internet | 18:45 |
| SpeedEvil | lcukn900: books | 18:46 |
| TomaszD | qwerty12, oh god... | 18:46 |
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| qwerty12 | TomaszD: Now try removing it :p | 18:47 |
| Shirase | hi everybody | 18:47 |
| tekonivel | any finns around? (onkos suomalaisia paikalla?) | 18:47 |
| lcukn900 | books isnt too bad with source material | 18:47 |
| TomaszD | qwerty12, it's removed from the repo now | 18:47 |
| adeus | tekonivel, there are always finns around | 18:48 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, it's ok reply saying this package will be superceded | 18:48 |
| tekonivel | i kind of hoped to get mail from Nokia today... | 18:48 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, just did | 18:48 |
| qwerty12 | TomaszD: Heh. This makes the post even more interesting - can we say it's a Nokia conspiracy? | 18:48 |
| tekonivel | that the N900 would be available for ppl with pre-orders | 18:48 |
| qwerty12 | Damn | 18:48 |
| tekonivel | that didn't happen thought :( | 18:48 |
| zaheerm | TomaszD, also make sure you obsolete ac3-support with your new package | 18:48 |
| Shirase | could I install maemo in the lg viewty? | 18:48 |
| TomaszD | qwerty12, I'm sure people will start talking regardless of us trolling the thread | 18:48 |
| TomaszD | zaheerm, noted | 18:48 |
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| GAN900 | Trouble? Wallpapers? What's going down? | 18:50 |
| tekonivel | the nokia flagship store kind of said N900 might be available today | 18:51 |
| tekonivel | (in Finland i mean) | 18:51 |
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| qwerty12 | GAN900: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=395916 | 18:51 |
| TomaszD | alright, bbl | 18:51 |
| SpeedEvil | np: The Proclaimers - 500 miles (from my n900). | 18:52 |
| SpeedEvil | UPS say it's in Barking. | 18:52 |
| ShadowJK_ | lbt wrt scratches not smudges :) | 18:53 |
| * qwerty12 passed Barking on the train, twice | 18:53 | |
| GAN900 | Oh screw Nintendo. | 18:53 |
| javispedro | GAN900: of course the someone panicked and shit is all over the place. | 18:53 |
| GAN900 | They're turning into freaking Sony | 18:53 |
| javispedro | s/the/then | 18:53 |
| GAN900 | First 4.2 then this | 18:53 |
| lardman | SpeedEvil: you walking then? ;) | 18:54 |
| javispedro | but heh, can't complain. I actually expected this since engadget pulled the story.... | 18:54 |
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| qwerty12 | This all makes for good publicity | 18:55 |
| javispedro | panicking does not though -- so better be quiet for noe. | 18:55 |
| lbt | ShadowJK_: actually I'm pretty paranoid about that too. I had a screenie on the N800 and haven't bothered on the N900. I do make sure my pockets have no coins though... | 18:56 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: naah. | 18:56 |
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| SpeedEvil | lardman: I think I'll wait for it. | 18:56 |
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| Klowner | hmm, cancel my $541 amazon order for a $613 nokiausa order (and hopefully use he $50 rebate)? decisions. | 19:00 |
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| lardman | anyone seen lots of syntax errors in the v4l2 header files caused by some missing package? Diablo target | 19:02 |
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| lardman | balls, bloody Qt stuff won't build for Diablo now | 19:04 |
| lardman | /usr/bin/moc-qt4 -Iqt -DQT_SHARED -I/usr/include/qt4 -I/usr/include/qt4/QtCore -I/usr/include/qt4/QtGui -I./include qt/QZBarThread.h -o qt/moc_QZBarThread.cpp | 19:04 |
| lardman | qemu: uncaught target signal 4 (Illegal instruction) - exiting | 19:04 |
| adeus | always fun | 19:04 |
| adeus | compiling for arm? | 19:05 |
| Stskeeps | lardman: use a newer sb? | 19:06 |
| Stskeeps | err | 19:06 |
| Stskeeps | qemu | 19:06 |
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| wazd_ | aaaw, all my FF bookmarks are gone :( | 19:08 |
| lardman | hmm, guess so | 19:08 |
| Ceron^ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4MwTvtyrUQ lool | 19:09 |
| SpeedEvil | wazd_: :/ | 19:09 |
| lardman | are there any instructions for upgrading Diablo qemu? | 19:10 |
| javispedro | changing the target settings | 19:10 |
| Ceron^ | check that video | 19:10 |
| Stskeeps | lardman: install .deb for the new one and adjust target? | 19:10 |
| lardman | is it installed under /scratchbox? | 19:10 |
| javispedro | if you have fremantle sdk you can use qemu-arm-sb | 19:10 |
| javispedro | (i mean, both of them) | 19:10 |
| javispedro | both SDKs | 19:11 |
| lardman | in the same sb? | 19:11 |
| javispedro | yep | 19:11 |
| lardman | that would be easier than my current /scratchbox symlinking dance | 19:11 |
| lardman | any instructions for that? | 19:11 |
| javispedro | I added the sbox repo to my apt sources and installed packages required by SDK (mostly intuition and guessing by looking at the manual instructions) | 19:12 |
| javispedro | then followed the manual instructions for both | 19:12 |
| lardman | make a new target first I guess? | 19:12 |
| lardman | then do you need the rootfs too? | 19:12 |
| javispedro | the manual SDK Install instructions talk about that | 19:13 |
| javispedro | s/talk about/guide you through | 19:13 |
| lardman | ok | 19:13 |
| javispedro | i managed to have bora, diablo, fremantle and gregale sdks with that. | 19:13 |
| * lardman begins to wish he had never volunteered to update zbar | 19:13 | |
| SpeedEvil | Anyone else got a n900 coming with UPS? | 19:13 |
| SpeedEvil | They think it weighs 100g. | 19:13 |
| qwerty12 | lardman: Moderator powers... | 19:13 |
| * SpeedEvil wonders if they just don't care about weighing accurately. | 19:14 | |
| lardman | true | 19:14 |
| lardman | :) | 19:14 |
| Stskeeps | SpeedEvil: it's a N900 box. | 19:14 |
| Stskeeps | without N900 inside. | 19:14 |
| javispedro | not even rocks inside? :( | 19:14 |
| qwerty12 | Maybe it has a Pocket PC inside, to bring the weight up... | 19:14 |
| javispedro | or harry potter books. | 19:15 |
| javispedro | or ikea catalogues. | 19:15 |
| SpeedEvil | :) | 19:15 |
| SpeedEvil | Some rocks I would be happy with. | 19:15 |
| qwerty12 | Gah, I hate you all. | 19:15 |
| SpeedEvil | Diamonds, sapphires, ... | 19:15 |
| SpeedEvil | 30 tons of gravel. | 19:16 |
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| t_s_o | seems that N900 will bomb, because it makes for a poor phone, no matter how good a pocket computer it may be... | 19:30 |
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| Stskeeps | we'll see | 19:31 |
| pekuja | t_s_o: do you think iPhone is a good phone? | 19:31 |
| t_s_o | pekuja: i think iphone is a massive marketing machine... | 19:32 |
| pekuja | t_s_o: and what's wrong with N900 as a phone? (I don't have one yet, so I can't tell) | 19:32 |
| Markus23 | a friend of mine (mac fan) is complaining about massive issues of iphone as phone | 19:33 |
| t_s_o | ok, its not a personal opinion, just a observation made based on the blogs and stuff made so far by people outside of the maemo community... | 19:33 |
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| Markus23 | are there any problem with the phone or sms functionality? | 19:33 |
| pekuja | t_s_o: oh... um... so it's not your opinion, but of some other people that haven't used an N900 either? | 19:34 |
| t_s_o | they seem to go n900 = nokia = phone, and then cry havoc over the phone features (or lack of them) | 19:34 |
| Lorthirk | n900 as phone is at least as good to the iphone 3g when it came out, imho | 19:34 |
| pekuja | Lorthirk: that was a year and a half ago though | 19:34 |
| Markus23 | t_s_o: thought n900 even has conference features, which features are missing? | 19:34 |
| t_s_o | Lorthirk: sadly, they mostly compare it with iphone 3g (or 3gs) as its now... | 19:34 |
| pekuja | expectations have risen | 19:35 |
| javispedro | I have to agree with t_s_o. A lot of people buy/preorder the N900 and they don't know what they're getting -- but one thing's for sure: it's not what they expect. | 19:35 |
| Lorthirk | pekuja: ok, but n900 has been on the market for 4 days | 19:35 |
| pekuja | anyways, I do think N900 still needs portrait mode to be a nice phone | 19:35 |
| pekuja | but it seems like that's in the works | 19:35 |
| pekuja | I'm sure the community will make it happen if Nokia doesn't | 19:35 |
| javispedro | this is specially evident in pre-existent Nokia fansites. | 19:35 |
| Lorthirk | t_s_o: it's comparing with iphone that i've chosen n900 :) | 19:35 |
| Markus23 | javispedro: do you really think people are spending 600eur with at least looking what it is? | 19:35 |
| pekuja | which is what's cool about N900 :-P | 19:35 |
| qwerty12 | Multiple profile support always makes me laugh. I have no need for it, personally, but it is a feature found in most phones and Nokia really do not have an excuse for leaving it out | 19:36 |
| javispedro | Markus23: yes. | 19:36 |
| pekuja | qwerty12: you mean like silent profile, outdoors profile, etc? | 19:36 |
| Mozillion | it is time to unpack my n900 :D | 19:36 |
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| zaheerm | Mozillion, enjoy! | 19:37 |
| Markus23 | I thought there were 2 profiles? | 19:37 |
| Markus23 | don't know a use for a profile other then silent or normal :-) | 19:37 |
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| mgedmin | a "flight mode" profile is sometimes useful | 19:37 |
| javispedro | Markus23: some of them don't even realize they won't be able to run Symbian apps. I've answered a few emails about this. | 19:37 |
| qwerty12 | pekuja: Yep. It has only two profiles: Silent and General. You can play with profiled's ini files to add new ones, but 1) who's gonna be arsed to do that and 2) You won't be able to choose it from the GUI | 19:37 |
| mgedmin | but n900 has an orthogonal setting for that | 19:37 |
| Lorthirk | Mozillion: could you please check that N900 recognizes correctly the WH-205 headset? | 19:37 |
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| javispedro | (nor Java apps for the matter) | 19:37 |
| Markus23 | mgedmin: what stops you from using silent mode and stop all connections? | 19:38 |
| pekuja | Silent and General is pretty much all anyone uses | 19:38 |
| * mgedmin sometimes wishes "vibrate off" in silent profile also turned off haptic feedback | 19:38 | |
| Mozillion | Lorthirk: is that included? | 19:38 |
| Lorthirk | of course, the headset :) | 19:38 |
| Mozillion | hrm.. the box feels rather light | 19:38 |
| Markus23 | qwerty12: if you can do it with ini files it is easy to write a gui supporting it... | 19:38 |
| Lorthirk | i'm really having hard times with that | 19:38 |
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| Markus23 | but not sure if there is any demand for it? | 19:39 |
| qwerty12 | Markus23: True, but you'd lose the integration | 19:39 |
| pekuja | I suppose some people might use a separate Outdoor setting for when they want a really loud ring tone | 19:39 |
| Lorthirk | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=35161 and https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6360 | 19:39 |
| povbot | Bug 6360: Headset problems | 19:39 |
| Markus23 | Are the profiles the only thing missing? | 19:39 |
| pekuja | vibrate on and completely silent are useful settings though | 19:39 |
| lardman | javispedro: so I need to install the diablo toolchain then I guess? | 19:40 |
| zaheerm | so how can i tell which app or process keeps turning on my display when idle? | 19:40 |
| javispedro | lardman: yep | 19:40 |
| lardman | or do I need to install everything bar sb itself? | 19:40 |
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| lardman | devkits, etc? | 19:40 |
| javispedro | lardman: if you install everything you'll waste disk space | 19:40 |
| javispedro | but that's about it | 19:40 |
| javispedro | (AFAIK, cause I did not install everything but cherry picked) | 19:41 |
| lardman | well I can't install scratchbox-core_1.0.11_i386.deb can I as it will overwrite the Fremantle version | 19:41 |
| javispedro | no, just use the latest version | 19:41 |
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| Markus23 | ok, if only profiles are missing i am relieved :-) | 19:42 |
| javispedro | for example, I have the following toolchains: cs2005q3.2-glibc-arm cs2005q3.2-glibc-i386 cs2005q3.2-glibc2.5-arm cs2005q3.2-glibc2.5-i386 cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm6 cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm7 cs2007q3-glibc2.5-i486 host-gcc | 19:42 |
| Markus23 | is there any n* using symbian? | 19:42 |
| javispedro | n97? | 19:42 |
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| zaheerm | Markus23, all the Ns except N800, n810, n810 WE, n900 | 19:43 |
| Markus23 | ohh ok, that might be confusing then | 19:43 |
| pekuja | Markus23: most Nseries devices are Symbian | 19:43 |
| Markus23 | but the people also manged not to buy N810 :-) | 19:43 |
| Markus23 | and the ads say that it has a phone and not symbian... | 19:44 |
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| javispedro | Markus23: most asked question about the N810: "is it a phone?" even though it says it's not nearly everywhere | 19:44 |
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| Markus23 | in fact I find the ads relatively clear that it is using linux, but maybe I am to sensitive on that | 19:45 |
| t_s_o | javispedro: and thats mostly because in the public mind nokia == phone... | 19:45 |
| pekuja | they had an N810 product placement in the Fantastic Four movie, and even in that one Mr. Fantastic reiterated that it's not a phone :-D | 19:45 |
| javispedro | t_s_o, exactly. | 19:45 |
| javispedro | pekuja: oh! | 19:45 |
| t_s_o | pekuja: i recall mr fantastic toying a 770 with a custom gui, but i do not recall a N810... | 19:45 |
| Markus23 | however with n900 nokia tries to fulfill which is in the public mind :-) | 19:46 |
| javispedro | people don't know what linux/symbian is | 19:46 |
| tigert | it is not a phone :) | 19:46 |
| javispedro | they just know what Nokia is. | 19:46 |
| qwerty12 | Best film I ever saw a tablet in was Harold and Kumar go to gitmo, featuring the 770 | 19:46 |
| javispedro | and sometimes hardly. | 19:46 |
| javispedro | "Nokia 770: "Rise of the Silver Surfer" Gadget" | 19:47 |
| javispedro | this is all I could found ;) | 19:47 |
| tigert | or, phones today are pretty different than a few years ago :) | 19:47 |
| t_s_o | was there not a claim that the 770 showed up in die hard 4.0? | 19:47 |
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| ShadowJK_ | hah.. 20 minutes with n900 and wlan stops working... came back after a reboot though | 19:47 |
| Markus23 | some know that s60 suck (but they might not know its symbianos) :-) | 19:47 |
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| t_s_o | Markus23: because they have been told it sucks, or from personal experience? | 19:48 |
| javispedro | they don't even know it's the same as what their older phone used, but They Changed It Now Sucks | 19:48 |
| Markus23 | t_s_o: I only know one - but with personal experience | 19:48 |
| t_s_o | javispedro: more like, its not like that "other" phone, so now it sucks... | 19:48 |
| pekuja | t_s_o: ok, I remembered wrong. a Maemo tablet anyways | 19:49 |
| lardman | are there manual install instructions for the fremantle SDK? | 19:49 |
| javispedro | there were at least... lemme check | 19:49 |
| Markus23 | I think n900 is more clearly that it does not use the same interface | 19:49 |
| lardman | javispedro: more questions, sorry | 19:49 |
| Markus23 | but maybe people expect otherwise... | 19:50 |
| javispedro | don't mind | 19:50 |
| lardman | javispedro: am just looking to set up the target, and the Diablo stuff says to issue: sb-conf setup DIABLO_ARMEL -c cs2005q3.2-glibc2.5-arm -d perl:debian-etch:maemo3-tools:cputransp -t qemu-arm-0.8.2-sb2 | 19:50 |
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| javispedro | yep | 19:50 |
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| lardman | I guess I want a different qemu, but just wondering about the middle stuff, whether I should install the Diablo ones or use the Fremantle ones | 19:50 |
| javispedro | devkits and toolchain? keep on using diablo's | 19:50 |
| lardman | ok, so I need to install those too then | 19:51 |
| javispedro | if you use fremantle toolchain and c++ you'll run into issues when deploying to device | 19:51 |
| lardman | toolchain fine | 19:51 |
| javispedro | c might work | 19:51 |
| lardman | oh... | 19:51 |
| lardman | ah well, waste of time then | 19:51 |
| javispedro | well, at least I run into issues :) | 19:51 |
| lardman | yeah new GCC | 19:51 |
| lardman | ok, will stop now then | 19:51 |
| lardman | thanks for the help anyway | 19:51 |
| javispedro | but the newer emu should work | 19:51 |
| javispedro | lardman: try it anyways | 19:51 |
| lardman | ah ok | 19:51 |
| adeus | scratchbox sucks big time in that respect | 19:52 |
| lardman | so you reckon to install the devkits too? | 19:52 |
| adeus | makes you answer questions you don't know the answer to, and only one works | 19:52 |
| javispedro | the idea is to install nearly all scratcbox-* .debs (save for those not required by ANY sdk) | 19:52 |
| javispedro | and then setup each sdk target as usual | 19:52 |
| lardman | ok, will try installing those ones too and see what happens :) | 19:53 |
| javispedro | with same settings as the ones the automated installer would set | 19:53 |
| mikhas | the UI installer doesnt require such questions IIRC | 19:53 |
| lardman | ~lart Qt, in a good way | 19:53 |
| * infobot burns Qt, in a good way to a crisp with a laser | 19:53 | |
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| javispedro | then you can play with using diablo sdk with fremantle compiler, or diablo sdk with fremantle qemu, etc. | 19:53 |
| lardman | mikhas: yeah, but I'm installing inside a Fremantle installation | 19:53 |
| mikhas | ah | 19:53 |
| lardman | and because of Qt, hence the ~lart | 19:53 |
| javispedro | the issue I had was with C++ destructors and pthread's cancellation, so it was very specific. | 19:53 |
| adeus | sbox2 didn't have the questions, but the only problem with it was that it didn't work at all | 19:54 |
| lardman | what do devkits do/provide? | 19:54 |
| javispedro | tools, native tools. | 19:54 |
| lardman | and can I actually install two different versions of the doctool devkit for example? | 19:55 |
| lardman | doctools even | 19:55 |
| javispedro | just install the latest | 19:55 |
| zaheerm | lol for all that want browser rotation: http://antimatter15.com/misc/rotatedgooglecss3.html | 19:55 |
| javispedro | it's not like it changed much. | 19:55 |
| lardman | in which case I should also use the latest of everything | 19:55 |
| lardman | what about devkit-maemo3? | 19:55 |
| javispedro | not required by the fremantle sdk iirc | 19:56 |
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| lardman | but used by the Diablo one? | 19:56 |
| lardman | so I should install? | 19:56 |
| javispedro | yep | 19:56 |
| lardman | k | 19:57 |
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| lardman | ok more questions! :) | 19:59 |
| lardman | what's the name of qemu, that I pass to sb-conf? | 19:59 |
| javispedro | which target? I can tell you the defaults | 19:59 |
| lardman | or do you use the menu and it can see what is available? | 20:00 |
| javispedro | feel free to experiment :) | 20:00 |
| adeus | use the menu | 20:00 |
| lardman | diablo_armel | 20:00 |
| javispedro | qemu-arm-0.8.2-sb2 diablos' default | 20:00 |
| lardman | yeah, but we want the new version of qemu now | 20:00 |
| adeus | take that one :P | 20:00 |
| lardman | no, no point, I already have a working Diablo sb install, I just need one that uses the new sb | 20:01 |
| lardman | s/sb/qemu | 20:01 |
| lardman | I'll try the menu | 20:01 |
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| javispedro | the fremantle one is qemu-arm-sb | 20:01 |
| javispedro | but then you have to remove the cputransp toolkit and add the qemu one | 20:02 |
| javispedro | s/toolkit/devkit | 20:02 |
| lardman | hmm | 20:03 |
| lardman | ok, we'll see what happens hey ;) | 20:03 |
| * adeus sees the future where lardman asks about mysterious illegal instruction crashes | 20:04 | |
| lardman | that's why I'm doing this! :) | 20:04 |
| javispedro | actually, that's what we're trying to avoid by using a more recent qemu | 20:04 |
| javispedro | even though of course the proper solution is qt native devkit :D | 20:05 |
| javispedro | we need a devkit repo | 20:05 |
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| lardman | hmm, should I install files to the target? | 20:06 |
| lardman | not sure I've ever seen that question before | 20:06 |
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| javispedro | you probably did on the initial target setup | 20:06 |
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| lardman | fair enough | 20:06 |
| lardman | I'll say yes and go for libc + related, passwd, group, mtab, etc., devkit files, gdb, strace | 20:07 |
| lardman | sound ok? | 20:07 |
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| javispedro | actually I never managed to break a target by installing files, so go ahead :) | 20:07 |
| lardman | :) | 20:07 |
| lardman | no time like the present ;) | 20:07 |
| lardman | so does my home directory stay the same all the time? | 20:08 |
| javispedro | yep | 20:09 |
| lardman | ah ok | 20:09 |
| lardman | I've never used the x86 target so had no idea | 20:09 |
| javispedro | this means some of the older sdks will refuse to show the GUI unless you clean some files in ~ | 20:09 |
| lardman | no matter to me | 20:09 |
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| adeus | of course the good thing about sbox is that whatever you do you can always restart | 20:11 |
| lardman | just wastes loads of time though | 20:12 |
| javispedro | yeah | 20:12 |
| javispedro | some day I'll just tar the whole /sbox folder | 20:12 |
| javispedro | and what's worse is that building sbox takes EVEN longer | 20:12 |
| adeus | I do that often :P | 20:12 |
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| javispedro | which is something I need to do to keep updated while having my randomized vdso support patch... | 20:13 |
| lardman | right, think I'm getting there, slowly, just install some deps then I can try the build again | 20:14 |
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| * lardman goes to do the washing up and get more wine :) | 20:14 | |
| javispedro | of course check if the new qemu runs any binary at all :) | 20:14 |
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| jjmarin | Is the source of the Calender avalaible ? | 20:15 |
| Stskeeps | no, closed | 20:16 |
| Stskeeps | libical is open but that's about it | 20:17 |
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| Flandry | what does it actually mean when a bug gets assigned an alias? | 20:18 |
| jjmarin | Stskeeps: thanks for the info ! :) | 20:19 |
| Stskeeps | beginning with int-? | 20:19 |
| Flandry | yes | 20:19 |
| Stskeeps | Flandry: means a internal nokia bug exists with that topic | 20:19 |
| Flandry | Ok... | 20:20 |
| Flandry | Independent from the public tracker report? | 20:20 |
| Stskeeps | it is usually a good thing, means that your bug is taken seriously | 20:20 |
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| Flandry | ok, thanks | 20:21 |
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| javispedro | wazd: do you still use that IRC client that ignores PMs ? ;) | 20:27 |
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| lardman | hm, diablo has dep problems with python2.5-gtk2-dev | 20:28 |
| lardman | what's the fix incantation, dpkg something? | 20:29 |
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| * kalikiana didn't get a FAILED yet, maybe finally the control file is correct | 20:32 | |
| * kalikiana prays to the FSM. | 20:32 | |
| Flandry | pupnik: What key are you using to call up the menu in UQM? Someone reported that the new default <shift> only works in hyperspace. | 20:32 |
| * lardman raises a meatball | 20:33 | |
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| lardman | hmm: | 20:37 |
| lardman | Setting up libqt4-dev (4.5.2-1maemo2) ... | 20:37 |
| lardman | Setting up qemu-arm-cvs-m as cpu transparency method... | 20:37 |
| lardman | sb-conf: No such CPU-transparency method: 'qemu-arm-cvs-m'. | 20:37 |
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| javispedro | uh, qt postinst changes sbox target settings? | 20:38 |
| lardman | apparently | 20:38 |
| lardman | Diablo version | 20:38 |
| lcukn900 | urg | 20:38 |
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| javispedro | dunno where arm-cvs-m comes from... | 20:39 |
| lcukn900 | this is gonna be the slowestnight ever | 20:39 |
| lardman | gnuton is the man in question | 20:39 |
| lardman | GNUton-BNC: ping | 20:40 |
| lardman | certainly for Qt dev ;) | 20:40 |
| lcukn900 | javis what settings does it mung with | 20:40 |
| lcukn900 | and how does it change system | 20:41 |
| javispedro | it seems to change the cpu transparency method, see above | 20:41 |
| * lardman decides to move on | 20:41 | |
| lcukn900 | wasnt here | 20:41 |
| lcukn900 | cannot see above | 20:42 |
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| lardman | I've wasted enough time on this | 20:42 |
| lardman | ah, hang on | 20:42 |
| lcukn900 | evil setting | 20:42 |
| javispedro | ah, sory sb-conf: No such CPU-transparency method: 'qemu-arm-cvs-m'. | 20:42 |
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| javispedro | <lardman> Setting up libqt4-dev (4.5.2-1maemo2) ... | 20:42 |
| javispedro | <lardman> Setting up qemu-arm-cvs-m as cpu transparency method... | 20:42 |
| javispedro | <lardman> sb-conf: No such CPU-transparency method: 'qemu-arm-cvs-m'. | 20:42 |
| abby | hello all ! | 20:42 |
| lardman | Setting up libqt4-dev (4.5.2-1maemo2) ... | 20:42 |
| lardman | Setting up qemu-arm-cvs-m as cpu transparency method... | 20:42 |
| lardman | sb-conf: No such CPU-transparency method: 'qemu-arm-cvs-m'. | 20:42 |
| lardman | Perhaps you forgot to select the devkit which includes it. | 20:42 |
| lardman | ah, too late :) | 20:42 |
| javispedro | but I don't know which one is | 20:42 |
| javispedro | heh :) | 20:43 |
| adeus | using the cvs version has always been a certain option for fail | 20:43 |
| lardman | well I guess that was required as qemu was breaking | 20:43 |
| abby | i am a maltese student ... and i nees help on software methodology | 20:43 |
| abby | can anyone ghelp pls ? | 20:43 |
| javispedro | lardman: found it, it comes with cputransp devkit | 20:43 |
| javispedro | so maybe you have to uncheck the qemu devkit again, add the cputransp devkit and reinstall qt | 20:44 |
| javispedro | and see what it does | 20:44 |
| lardman | argh! | 20:44 |
| lardman | and I'd almost given up there! ;) | 20:44 |
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| lardman | was happily going to move onto doing something useful | 20:44 |
| javispedro | sounds like a time sink indeed :) | 20:44 |
| LuciusMare | ooh | 20:44 |
| LuciusMare | hello | 20:44 |
| lardman | abby: well you can only ask | 20:44 |
| LuciusMare | I didn't expect this #channel so big | 20:45 |
| lardman | LuciusMare: well all turned up as we knew you were coming ;) | 20:45 |
| Stskeeps | LuciusMare: big community | 20:45 |
| LuciusMare | Stskeeps: yes,i see | 20:45 |
| LuciusMare | #android has only about 100 more | 20:46 |
| LuciusMare | hm | 20:46 |
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| abby | i was woundering if you could tell me Benefits of using a standard methodology | 20:47 |
| Flandry | maybe time for a maemo-dev :P | 20:47 |
| lardman | abby: I've no clue what that is | 20:47 |
| lardman | Flandry: well it us the devs who are speaking shit most of the time, so would just make the users' channel dull ;) | 20:48 |
| Flandry | i know ;) | 20:48 |
| lardman | heh | 20:48 |
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| abby | ok np thanks any ways | 20:48 |
| javispedro | lardman: we could call in tmo users and let them repeatedly ask if it's shipped yet. | 20:48 |
| Flandry | but we could send random arrivals there | 20:48 |
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| lcukn900 | i like the idea of a users chat channel | 20:49 |
| lcukn900 | or 20 | 20:49 |
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| lardman | you want to talk to users?! | 20:49 |
| lcukn900 | no | 20:49 |
| lardman | :) | 20:50 |
| lcukn900 | but they generate their own noise | 20:50 |
| SpeedEvil | I've suggested a youtube channel before. | 20:50 |
| lcukn900 | as long as they are using nxx0 to do itkwhat do we mind | 20:50 |
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| lcukn900 | i want to be a user :) | 20:50 |
| lardman | javispedro: nah, just installed the standard cputranp stuff and it doesn't want to work | 20:51 |
| lcukn900 | just have a lark around | 20:51 |
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| LuciusMare | I don't want to start something bad,but i have to ask - i want to play with my phone a bit,but i heard that maemo is only better in web browsing and pdf wieving,for other things,android is better - What should I choose? | 20:51 |
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| lcukn900 | up2u | 20:51 |
| lcukn900 | maemo is better. | 20:51 |
| lardman | hmm, /me wonders what abby expected there....? | 20:51 |
| Flandry | been too long since my courses on the topic to have any clue | 20:52 |
| Mozillion | pff.. it has considerable trouble to get an IP address on my wlan | 20:52 |
| lcukn900 | my desktop is withering away at lack of internwt | 20:53 |
| LuciusMare | Okay,thanks | 20:53 |
| lcukn900 | i found out today i have a screensaver enabled lol | 20:53 |
| lcukn900 | ive never seen it b4 | 20:53 |
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| LuciusMare | And,I want to try how does Maemo look at n900,is there something like an emulator,or something?I heard i have to use the SDK but didn't find anything about it | 20:53 |
| Mozillion | using the SDK works | 20:54 |
| Mozillion | it's quite complete | 20:54 |
| lcukn900 | maemo sdk gui | 20:54 |
| lardman | hmm, I've just stepped back in time to debhelper version 4, what have you made me do javispedro!? | 20:54 |
| lcukn900 | search google for that | 20:54 |
| Flandry | the version in sb is pretty old | 20:54 |
| LuciusMare | lcukn900: google "maemo sdk emulator" ? | 20:55 |
| lcukn900 | no | 20:55 |
| lcukn900 | maemo sdk gui | 20:55 |
| lardman | hmm, perhaps I should apt-get upgrade | 20:55 |
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| javispedro | lardman: actually, debhelper should come from devkits... | 20:55 |
| lcukn900 | it should hit the install instructions for gui sdk | 20:55 |
| lardman | tbh I have no idea :) | 20:55 |
| lcukn900 | on a linux bos its a single file install and gives nice complete system | 20:56 |
| * lardman goes back to symlink madness | 20:56 | |
| lcukn900 | you dont normally have sdk trouble simon | 20:57 |
| lardman | actually before I do, what version do you chaps have? | 20:57 |
| * lardman wonders why he's trying to save this patient..... | 20:57 | |
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| * RST38h moos evilly | 20:58 | |
| lcukn900 | hey rst | 20:58 |
| * RST38h ehlos lcuk, lardman, and javispedro | 20:59 | |
| javispedro | definitely it's time to moo evilly :) | 20:59 |
| kalikiana | lardman, please add an icon to emerillon, it's hard to identify on my homescreen otherwise :-P | 20:59 |
| lardman | kalikiana: lol | 20:59 |
| javispedro | hi RST38h | 20:59 |
| lardman | ok, did I even package it? | 21:00 |
| kalikiana | was it not you? | 21:00 |
| lardman | I did yes, ok, will sort it out | 21:00 |
| * kalikiana checks | 21:00 | |
| lardman | yeah was me | 21:00 |
| lcukn900 | "not charging insufficient power" | 21:00 |
| kalikiana | hehe | 21:00 |
| lardman | just didn't know if I just stuck a tarball up | 21:00 |
| lcukn900 | great moar trouble | 21:00 |
| lardman | has been a long week or two | 21:00 |
| RST38h | javispedro: "Death. Desolation. Plastic forks." ? | 21:00 |
| * lcukn900 sits with wazd | 21:00 | |
| lardman | kalikiana: I'm still planning to sort those menus out... | 21:01 |
| javispedro | RST38h: something like that | 21:01 |
| LuciusMare | Um,what is a rootstrap? "Default rootstrap has not been set. Please, specify rootstrap name" | 21:03 |
| lardman | basically the fs you see within sb | 21:03 |
| RST38h | javispedro: "Maemo Council suddenly finds out why we need third party repos" =) | 21:04 |
| LuciusMare | lardman: oh,and how do i set it -where do i put it?I didn't find it in man | 21:04 |
| kalikiana | LuciusMare, a rootstrap is an archive of an existing file tree, quite simply. you need something to start with | 21:04 |
| LuciusMare | kalikiana: oh | 21:05 |
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| LuciusMare | kalikiana: so first, maemo-sdk install ... ? | 21:05 |
| lardman | LuciusMare: you doing an sdk installation? | 21:05 |
| LuciusMare | lardman: i guess so | 21:05 |
| LuciusMare | lardman: i want how will maemo look on the phone,an "emulator" | 21:05 |
| LuciusMare | *i want to know how... | 21:05 |
| lardman | follow the instructions then | 21:05 |
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| javispedro | there's no emulator. | 21:06 |
| lardman | there should be a nice graphical setup script | 21:06 |
| javispedro | if you want to see how it'll look check some screenshots :D | 21:06 |
| LuciusMare | javispedro: er,i mean... | 21:06 |
| lardman | javispedro: what does it look like in the SDK out of interest? | 21:06 |
| LuciusMare | To TEST how it will look :) | 21:06 |
| kalikiana | lardman, just like on the device | 21:06 |
| LuciusMare | lardman: the only thing i got is this: http://maemo-sdk.garage.maemo.org/maemo-sdk.html | 21:07 |
| lardman | kalikiana: ah, fair enough | 21:07 |
| LuciusMare | and there are no instructions | 21:07 |
| lardman | I need more cores | 21:07 |
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| javispedro | lardman: it has the device theme and some of the device apps, but that's about it. | 21:08 |
| LuciusMare | Could anyone point me to instructions how to run the maemo? :( | 21:08 |
| javispedro | and it's ORANGEEEEEEEe | 21:08 |
| lardman | LuciusMare: hang on, am looking for the SDK installtion instructions | 21:09 |
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| javispedro | LuciusMare: there's no emulator. consider that. the SDK is mostly for development and depending on what you want to try you're going to be severely disappointed. | 21:09 |
| LuciusMare | javispedro: you told me so,i mean | 21:10 |
| LuciusMare | 19:53 < LuciusMare> And,I want to try how does Maemo look at n900,is there something like an emulator,or something?I heard i have to use the SDK but didn't find anything about it | 21:10 |
| LuciusMare | 19:54 < Mozillion> using the SDK works | 21:10 |
| LuciusMare | 19:54 < Mozillion> it's quite complete | 21:10 |
| LuciusMare | so,i can't test how it will look on n900? | 21:11 |
| javispedro | test what? | 21:11 |
| Mozillion | right | 21:11 |
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| Mozillion | well... I installed it under Linux | 21:11 |
| kalikiana | LuciusMare, it will look like that, just don't be surprised if, for example, bluetooth and gsm doesn't work | 21:11 |
| Mozillion | right | 21:11 |
| javispedro | or sound, or animations are not fluid, or.. | 21:11 |
| Mozillion | but they main GUI becomes clear | 21:11 |
| javispedro | or the colors are weird, | 21:11 |
| lardman | http://www.forum.nokia.com/Tools_Docs_and_Code/Tools/Platforms/Maemo/ fwiw | 21:11 |
| Mozillion | uhhuh | 21:11 |
| LuciusMare | er | 21:11 |
| javispedro | or NO applications install at all. | 21:11 |
| LuciusMare | I wont actually expect it to call | 21:12 |
| LuciusMare | Just... | 21:12 |
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| javispedro | or things hang, or the control panel is missing applets, or ... | 21:12 |
| lardman | I guess this is not good...?: dpkg-gencontrol: warning: unknown substitution variable ${binary:Version} | 21:12 |
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| lardman | jeremiah: hey :) | 21:13 |
| RST38h | some field is missing | 21:13 |
| lardman | where from tho? | 21:13 |
| LuciusMare | lardman: did you find it already? | 21:13 |
| lardman | see above | 21:13 |
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| lardman | sounds like a debhelper version issue to me, as it used to work and now it doesn't and I've apparently changed debhelper version | 21:14 |
| javispedro | do you have etch devkit? | 21:14 |
| lardman | I think sp | 21:14 |
| lardman | so | 21:14 |
| javispedro | fwiw, this is diablo_armel target | 21:15 |
| javispedro | Compiler: cs2005q3.2-glibc2.5-arm | 21:15 |
| javispedro | Devkits: debian-etch cputransp maemo3-tools perl | 21:15 |
| javispedro | CPU-transparency: /scratchbox/devkits/cputransp/bin/qemu-arm-0.8.2-sb2 | 21:15 |
| lardman | ah no, have sarge | 21:15 |
| javispedro | ah :) | 21:15 |
| lardman | is that before or after? | 21:15 |
| lardman | before I guess? | 21:16 |
| javispedro | sarge is older, yes | 21:16 |
| lardman | hmm, any ideas how I update that then? | 21:16 |
| javispedro | deselect sarge and check etch? | 21:16 |
| lardman | where though? | 21:16 |
| javispedro | in the target setup | 21:16 |
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| javispedro | if you don't have debian-etch there you'll need to get the corresponding .deb | 21:17 |
| lardman | ooo, lots of options! | 21:17 |
| * javispedro is now seriously considering if the guy asking for roms in tmo NOW when both his thread and the "Nintendo suing" thread are topmost is a) dumb b) the nintendo copyright czar trying to lure someone | 21:18 | |
| lardman | quick, someone generate some very large binary files for him to download.... :) | 21:19 |
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| * lardman heads for food | 21:19 | |
| luke-jr | be sure they contain valid ROM headers | 21:19 |
| luke-jr | ideally generate valid ARM code too | 21:20 |
| RST38h | javispedro: Dumb. In fact, we are now gonna get a lot of those, as "owning" Maemo emulators has become "eleet" | 21:20 |
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| javispedro | :) | 21:21 |
| javispedro | well, you have to look on the bright side, now you don't have to pass extras QA =) | 21:21 |
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| jeremiah | lardman: Halooo! | 21:22 |
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| jeremiah | etch is after | 21:25 |
| *** mavhk has joined #maemo | 21:25 | |
| cooldj | exits new app for maemo | 21:25 |
| cooldj | 4 | 21:25 |
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| gameprograma | Hey all. | 21:43 |
| Stskeeps | heya | 21:43 |
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| gameprograma | I'm currently installing the Maemo 5 SDK. | 21:44 |
| gameprograma | Do I need to install the Qt4 SDK if I want to developer Qt apps or is it already included? | 21:44 |
| gameprograma | *developer | 21:44 |
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| gameprograma | *develop | 21:44 |
| Stskeeps | i think installable with fakeroot apt-get but i may be wrong | 21:45 |
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| gameprograma | Okay, thanks. | 21:46 |
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| wazd_ | Nintendo's new piracy tsar takes on Nokia | 21:52 |
| wazd_ | now javis screwed :D | 21:52 |
| jeremiah | I got their piracy tsar right here | 21:52 |
| wazd_ | oh and RST38h :D | 21:53 |
| wazd_ | and me since I've drawn icons for all of them :D | 21:54 |
| wazd_ | we're all screwed :) | 21:54 |
| derf | I thought the Russians deposed the tsars. | 21:54 |
| derf | I'm sure RST38h doesn't give a damn. | 21:54 |
| Ceron^ | http://seiscoffee.webs.com/House-M.D.jpg | 21:54 |
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| wazd_ | SWell, if seriously, emulators doesn't violate any laws | 21:55 |
| wazd_ | roms - yes, emus - nope | 21:56 |
| wrapster | can anyone please tell me how i can start writing python apps then porting it to maemo? | 21:56 |
| derf | You underestimate corporate lawyers. | 21:56 |
| derf | There's a thing called "contributory infringement". | 21:56 |
| qwerty12_N900 | No, but Nintendo may be curious to find out where the ROMs played at the Helsinki meetup were downloaded from... | 21:56 |
| wrapster | any links that i can follow? | 21:56 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12_N900: don't give them ammo | 21:57 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 21:57 |
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| jeremiah | Stskeeps: Thanks for pointing out that URL - I removed it, it shouldn't work now. | 21:57 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah: ah - you found the culprit? | 21:57 |
| qwerty12_N900 | Stskeeps: Meh, it's common knowledge: The thing was streamed, FFS | 21:57 |
| jeremiah | Yeah, I hadn't synced that repo | 21:57 |
| jeremiah | Bad me | 21:58 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah: woops | 21:58 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12_N900: woops | 21:58 |
| jeremiah | heh | 21:58 |
| jeremiah | woops | 21:58 |
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| jeremiah | wrapster: Yeah, there is a bunch of good documentation | 21:59 |
| jeremiah | wrapster: How strong a python programmer are you? | 21:59 |
| wrapster | 6 on 10 | 21:59 |
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| jeremiah | okay, cool | 21:59 |
| RST38h | heya wazd | 21:59 |
| wrapster | jeremiah: but was out of touch for a while... | 21:59 |
| wazd_ | Serious Sam HD, cmon, download faster! | 21:59 |
| jeremiah | You want to do Qt stuff? | 22:00 |
| wazd_ | RST38h: hey :) | 22:00 |
| lcuk | wazd_, are your problems cured | 22:00 |
| jeremiah | By that I mean creating windows etc. | 22:00 |
| lcuk | my virgin tube is back up and running | 22:00 |
| wazd_ | lcuk: yep | 22:00 |
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| Ceron^ | http://scitedaily.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/building-3d-models-on-the-fly-using-a-webcam/ | 22:00 |
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| Ceron^ | http://www.futilitycloset.com/2008/07/09/applied-math/ | 22:00 |
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| wrapster | jeremiah: yeah i have an app in mind as of now and want to start off right away.. qt stuff for it will definitely be benificial... and im planning on doing it as well.. but first would like to look at the docs... | 22:01 |
| florian | re | 22:01 |
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| wrapster | jeremiah: could you please put across the link? | 22:01 |
| jeremiah | wrapster: Cool, sounds good. | 22:01 |
| jeremiah | wrapster: Let me get you a couple links | 22:01 |
| jeremiah | http://maemo.org/development/ | 22:01 |
| jeremiah | ^^ Dev portal | 22:01 |
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| jeremiah | https://wiki.maemo.org/Qt4_Hildon | 22:02 |
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| wrapster | jeremiah: ok.. page doesnt seem to be opening..lol | 22:02 |
| jeremiah | ^^ Qt Hildon | 22:02 |
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| jeremiah | wrapster: Well, we mirror the web site with a Content Delivery network | 22:03 |
| *** mavhk has quit IRC | 22:03 | |
| jeremiah | So if it is slow - blame them! =] | 22:03 |
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| jeremiah | The web site is going to get some more dedicated hardware, it is kinda slow at the moment. | 22:04 |
| wrapster | jeremiah: yeah i had already visited this site.. | 22:04 |
| jeremiah | https://wiki.maemo.org/Qt4_Hildon | 22:04 |
| jeremiah | ^^ Qt Hildon | 22:04 |
| jeremiah | Did you visit that? | 22:04 |
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| wrapster | looked at code eg also.. they are all shell scripsts and makefils.. | 22:04 |
| wrapster | how about python stuff? | 22:04 |
| jeremiah | You want to know about the python language? | 22:05 |
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| jeremiah | http://python.org | 22:05 |
| wrapster | jeremiah: no no.. | 22:05 |
| wrapster | that i know... lol.. | 22:05 |
| jeremiah | okay - then you'll have to be a tad more specific | 22:06 |
| crashanddie | wrapster, or is it spelling you want to know more about? | 22:06 |
| wrapster | i was trying to see if there were any specific way of programming in python for maemo, specifically. | 22:07 |
| jeremiah | No. Just use the bindings to Qt | 22:07 |
| lcuk | yeah, python for maemo does not work with tab characters | 22:07 |
| wrapster | never touched maemo thats the reason asking | 22:07 |
| jeremiah | And do regular python fu | 22:07 |
| lcuk | you have to use unicode 0x3483 to indent your files | 22:07 |
| wrapster | ok cool.. thanks | 22:07 |
| jeremiah | lcuk: You have to use unicode 0x3457 to ident your brain. | 22:08 |
| lcuk | damn | 22:08 |
| lcuk | i knew it was for something | 22:08 |
| wrapster | jeremiah: thanks.. | 22:08 |
| lcuk | wrapster python works really well :) | 22:08 |
| jeremiah | wrapster: Sure thing! | 22:09 |
| jeremiah | heh | 22:09 |
| wrapster | lcuk: great then... if not for my snail paced net conn, i would have downloaded the scratchbox and started working.. damn... | 22:09 |
| wrapster | should wait for another 3 hrs i guess :( | 22:09 |
| lcuk | you got a device yet? | 22:10 |
| * Hydroxide greets jeremiah and * | 22:10 | |
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| Hydroxide | lcuk: hehe, you actually made me curious whether unicode had any indentation-specific characters ... gucharmap revealed your jig :) | 22:13 |
| lcuk | what is char 3457 then? | 22:13 |
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| lcuk | or 3483 | 22:14 |
| Hydroxide | luke-jr: they're both CJK unified ideographs | 22:14 |
| Hydroxide | lcuk: meant for you ^^ | 22:14 |
| Hydroxide | lcuk: i.e., asian characters | 22:14 |
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| * lcuk indents himself | 22:15 | |
| AakashPatel | lol | 22:16 |
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| Hydroxide | → lcuk | 22:17 |
| Hydroxide | → → Hydroxide | 22:18 |
| Hydroxide | :) | 22:18 |
| lcuk | is that the char i chose randomly? | 22:18 |
| Hydroxide | no | 22:18 |
| SpeedEvil | ✈ | 22:18 |
| lcuk | damn | 22:18 |
| lcuk | that wouldv been spooky | 22:18 |
| Hydroxide | the one I gave was U+2192 | 22:18 |
| Hydroxide | RIGHTWARDS ARROW | 22:18 |
| Hydroxide | (yes the official names are in caps) | 22:18 |
| Hydroxide | with spaces around itr | 22:18 |
| Hydroxide | -r | 22:19 |
| Proteous | UPWARDS ARROW!!! | 22:19 |
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| *** melmoth_ is now known as melmoth | 22:20 | |
| SpeedEvil | Unicode is fun. | 22:20 |
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| Hydroxide | yep. | 22:22 |
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| lcuk | wow http://scitedaily.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/building-3d-models-on-the-fly-using-a-webcam/ | 22:27 |
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| lcuk | i want that on n900 | 22:27 |
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| derf | That stuff has been real-time since 2005. | 22:29 |
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| SpeedEvil | lcuk: I want the inverse. Stationary object, and moving camera | 22:31 |
| AakashPatel | Haha. | 22:31 |
| lcuk | crime scene room layouts? | 22:31 |
| lcuk | it needs spline patches to do curved surfaces. 3d boob models ftw! | 22:31 |
| derf | SpeedEvil: They're equivalent. | 22:32 |
| AakashPatel | lcuk: Now that makes my n900 worth all the money | 22:32 |
| AakashPatel | haha | 22:32 |
| tbf | [2009-11-27 21:31:15] DEBUG: trying to overwrite `/opt', which is also in package base-files | 22:32 |
| derf | You just can't do background subtraction automatically. | 22:32 |
| Stskeeps | tbf: uhoh. :P | 22:32 |
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| lcuk | "content creation" :D | 22:32 |
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| tbf | how do i tell sbdmock to get along with this? | 22:32 |
| lcuk | click, zoom, expand | 22:32 |
| Klowner | anyone know where to find that $50 mail-in rebate thinger for the N900? | 22:32 |
| lcuk | more | 22:32 |
| lcuk | bigger | 22:32 |
| lcuk | pan out | 22:32 |
| lcuk | ok, zoom more! | 22:32 |
| AakashPatel | hahaha | 22:33 |
| tbf | Stskeeps: when building manually i could just remove the symlink, tinker, whatever | 22:33 |
| lcuk | "omg loook at the size of them things" | 22:33 |
| qwerty12_N900 | lcuk: Wow, your face! | 22:33 |
| lcuk | "thats no moon | 22:33 |
| AakashPatel | lcuk: To bad no multitouch! haha | 22:33 |
| tbf | Stskeeps: do you have an idea? | 22:33 |
| lcuk | sod the multitouch, we have corkscrew | 22:33 |
| lbt | err, yeah | 22:33 |
| Arkenoi | mix of scrollbars and finger slip scrolling makes me confused. is there any style guide on that? | 22:33 |
| SpeedEvil | derf: yes - they almost are equivalent. | 22:34 |
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| AakashPatel | wazzat? | 22:34 |
| AakashPatel | oh | 22:34 |
| AakashPatel | haha i see | 22:34 |
| * lbt played with corkscrew and gave it the finger | 22:34 | |
| Stskeeps | tbf: where is the error from? | 22:34 |
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| Stskeeps | ah, sbdmock | 22:34 |
| tbf | Stskeeps: yup | 22:34 |
| * Stskeeps backs off slowly | 22:34 | |
| clmntch | j0 | 22:34 |
| lcuk | lol lbt | 22:34 |
| lcuk | its useful in some situations | 22:34 |
| AakashPatel | 'some' | 22:34 |
| clmntch | hello | 22:34 |
| lbt | mmm | 22:35 |
| AakashPatel | yo clmntch | 22:35 |
| Myrtti | I accidentally the whole N900. Is it dangerous | 22:35 |
| lcuk | eating breakfast with only a stylus in hand | 22:35 |
| * lbt smells gimmick | 22:35 | |
| lcuk | its extremely responsive | 22:35 |
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| lbt | Myrtti: "ate" ? | 22:35 |
| AakashPatel | Myrtti: Engrish? | 22:35 |
| lcuk | the only real tim e i browse hte web | 22:35 |
| qwerty12_N900 | tbf: Look at the maemo-developers' archives: This problem was found and fixed for the autobuilder | 22:35 |
| * lcuk huggles Myrtti | 22:35 | |
| Myrtti | http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/i-accidentally | 22:35 |
| lcuk | hiya :D havent seen you in a while | 22:35 |
| AakashPatel | Haha lcuk have you been drinking? | 22:35 |
| lcuk | Myrtti, the whole thing? | 22:36 |
| lbt | careful lcuk she's got an N900 insider | 22:36 |
| tbf | qwerty12_N900: ah, sbdmock is the real stuff? the aweome! | 22:36 |
| lcuk | no AakashPatel | 22:36 |
| Quibus | hi | 22:36 |
| lcuk | ive just had no internet all day | 22:36 |
| Myrtti | lcuk: the whole thing | 22:36 |
| Quibus | so, I setup the SDK... now how do I compile my app? | 22:36 |
| AakashPatel | The "huggles" part got me | 22:36 |
| AakashPatel | omg no nets for a day? | 22:36 |
| AakashPatel | :0 | 22:36 |
| * Myrtti huggles lcuk back | 22:36 | |
| Myrtti | AakashPatel: you get no huggles | 22:36 |
| AakashPatel | :( | 22:37 |
| * AakashPatel huggles himself | 22:37 | |
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| AakashPatel | hm we should have an offtopic channel | 22:38 |
| lcuk | why | 22:38 |
| Stskeeps | bacon | 22:38 |
| Stskeeps | ! | 22:38 |
| lcuk | we sometimes stop if real people need to ask questions | 22:38 |
| * Stskeeps had a really delicious bacon pizza today | 22:38 | |
| AakashPatel | Idk, jsut to talk about whatever | 22:39 |
| AakashPatel | and keep this place...maemo filled? lol | 22:39 |
| * lbt had bacon and avacado | 22:39 | |
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| Stskeeps | AakashPatel: many people do maemo as work, so bacon discussion in the evening | 22:39 |
| lcuk | mmmm maemo bacon | 22:39 |
| lcuk | maemo isnt maemo without bacon | 22:39 |
| lbt | do they have bacon in spain? | 22:39 |
| AakashPatel | hah okay | 22:39 |
| AakashPatel | pretty sure they do | 22:39 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: yes, i think i had some when i was at debconf | 22:40 |
| w00t | bacon isn't bacon without maemo, lcuk | 22:40 |
| lbt | good | 22:40 |
| * lbt aims to extend the weekend to include bacon experience | 22:40 | |
| AakashPatel | lol why is bacon so important? | 22:40 |
| * AakashPatel must have missed something | 22:41 | |
| lbt | AakashPatel: !!!! | 22:41 |
| AakashPatel | I mean in maemo | 22:41 |
| AakashPatel | lol | 22:41 |
| Stskeeps | AakashPatel: http://xkcd.com/418/ | 22:41 |
| Quibus | is htere a tutorial how to use the scratchbox and stuff to compile an app for Maemo, if you know how to do it under Debian? | 22:41 |
| Myrtti | http://knowyourmeme.com/i/378/original/800px-Motivational93.png | 22:41 |
| Stskeeps | this is symbolism of maemo openness. it's open, like bacon. | 22:41 |
| AakashPatel | Haha I see | 22:41 |
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| Stskeeps | Quibus: dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -b.. | 22:42 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:42 |
| w00t | mmm, open maemo bacon. | 22:42 |
| lcuk | open like a pig | 22:42 |
| AakashPatel | haha | 22:42 |
| w00t | I'm now left wondering | 22:42 |
| clmntch | mmmmmmmm, bacon | 22:42 |
| w00t | if when I get my n900 if I can make it overheat so I can cook bacon on it. | 22:42 |
| * AakashPatel hasn't had any in...a few months :0 | 22:42 | |
| lcuk | w00t, sure | 22:43 |
| Quibus | Stskeeps: thanks :P | 22:43 |
| lcuk | the n810 was released with a bacon grill | 22:43 |
| AakashPatel | w00t: calculate pi on it | 22:43 |
| lcuk | just put a rasher on the keyboard | 22:43 |
| lbt | Quibus: http://maemo.org/development/ | 22:43 |
| lcuk | it even has one of those driptrays | 22:43 |
| Quibus | For now, it seems just compiling in that scratchbox env seems to be the idea | 22:43 |
| w00t | lcuk: awesome. | 22:43 |
| Quibus | lbt: been there, but it's either too basic or too advanced | 22:43 |
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| lbt | have you got the SDK up? | 22:43 |
| Quibus | yep | 22:44 |
| Quibus | I'm checking out the code under the scratchbox env now | 22:44 |
| lbt | *nod* | 22:44 |
| lbt | does "mount --bind" make sense? | 22:44 |
| Quibus | lbt: in the scratchbox? | 22:44 |
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| lbt | to it ... to allow the sbox to share with your normal dev env | 22:45 |
| * AakashPatel goes to play with maemo in scrachbox more | 22:45 | |
| lbt | I do : mount --bind /maemo /scratchbox/users/david/maemo/ | 22:45 |
| Quibus | lbt: the code isn't that big, so I guess it doesn't really need to be shared | 22:45 |
| lbt | sure | 22:45 |
| Quibus | lbt: is the idea that the x86 env is for local testing and the armel env is to compile for the actual target? | 22:46 |
| lbt | yes | 22:46 |
| Quibus | OK | 22:46 |
| Quibus | code is there | 22:47 |
| Quibus | So, I can just pretend to be under normal Debian-like OS and try to compile? | 22:47 |
| lcuk | lbt | 22:47 |
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| lcuk | symlink from outside in | 22:47 |
| lcuk | from outside scratchbox i setup sshfs | 22:48 |
| lcuk | but its the same thing | 22:48 |
| lbt | much heavier though | 22:48 |
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| lbt | mount --bind is superfast | 22:48 |
| lcuk | for me yeah, i did it with just code folders before | 22:48 |
| * lcuk nods | 22:48 | |
| Quibus | hmm, it seems Python is ancient in that SDK env | 22:49 |
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| lbt | heh | 22:49 |
| Quibus | can it be updated? | 22:49 |
| Quibus | 2.3 is too old for our build system | 22:49 |
| Quibus | (it's a custom build system written mostly in Python) | 22:49 |
| * lbt not a python expert.... but 'no' | 22:49 | |
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| Quibus | arf | 22:50 |
| lbt | at least not without implications | 22:50 |
| Quibus | oh | 22:50 |
| lbt | I mean... it's OSS | 22:50 |
| Quibus | apt-cache search reveals python 2.5 | 22:50 |
| lbt | it's a bit weird | 22:50 |
| kalikiana | a custom build system? were you bored? | 22:51 |
| lbt | you're running in scratchbox | 22:51 |
| Stskeeps | Quibus: use /usr/bin/python2.6 or the likes | 22:51 |
| Quibus | kalikiana: I wasn't responsible for it :-) | 22:51 |
| Quibus | It does use make as well | 22:51 |
| * lbt doesn't use SDK much ;) | 22:51 | |
| kalikiana | stop, stop, it's becoming even wierder :-P | 22:52 |
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| Quibus | kalikiana: it can do nice tricks though. | 22:52 |
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| kalikiana | like turning your brain into mush? | 22:53 |
| Quibus | like doing a static build by downloading, patching and compiling all deps | 22:53 |
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| Quibus | hmm, no libsdl ttf available? | 22:55 |
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| Quibus | are extra repositories available? | 22:56 |
| lbt | no | 22:56 |
| Stskeeps | Quibus: check if extras-devel has it | 22:56 |
| lcuk | that shouldnt be missing | 22:56 |
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| lcuk | im sure i used that on day1 | 22:56 |
| lbt | strictly forbidden ;) | 22:56 |
| Quibus | extras-devel is a category like 'free' and 'non-free'? | 22:57 |
| qwerty12_N900 | It was always in extras-devel, even for Diablo & Chinook | 22:57 |
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| Stskeeps | Quibus: it's stuff extra to the SDK | 22:57 |
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| qwerty12_N900 | Fremantle is no exception: http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/s/sdl-ttf2.0/ | 22:57 |
| qwerty12_N900 | Quibus: http://repository.maemo.org/ has all the details | 22:58 |
| Quibus | what line to add to the sources.list? | 22:58 |
| Quibus | ah | 22:58 |
| Quibus | thanks | 22:58 |
| Quibus | it's not a problem to have an app depending on extras-devel, I suppose? | 22:59 |
| lbt | it is if you want it in extras | 22:59 |
| qwerty12_N900 | Libraries in extras-devel will get promoted with your app | 23:00 |
| lbt | qwerty12_N900: don't they need a maintainer? | 23:00 |
| Quibus | qwerty12_N900: meaning? | 23:00 |
| wazd_ | http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=386826&postcount=127 why for god sake this reminds me Santa Barbara? :D | 23:00 |
| lbt | there was a discussion about that a few weeks back | 23:00 |
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| Quibus | damn, no libsdl-ttf in extras-devel either | 23:01 |
| Quibus | oh, my bad | 23:01 |
| Quibus | it's there | 23:01 |
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| qwerty12_N900 | lbt: No idea, but while it has been discussed, it's already been happening... | 23:02 |
| Quibus | OK, deps installed | 23:02 |
| lbt | heh OK | 23:02 |
| Quibus | Compiling | 23:02 |
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| lcuk | qwerty, but you cannot be promoted to extras | 23:02 |
| lcuk | you are missing some dependencies | 23:02 |
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| Quibus | so, when the build is done for the x86 target in the scratchbox, how does one proceed to test it as if it's running on the device? | 23:06 |
| lbt | read the devel bits about Xephyr | 23:07 |
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| Quibus | I've tried it, and it worked | 23:07 |
| Quibus | Where can I read how to get my app 'on' it? | 23:07 |
| kalikiana | set the DISPLAY | 23:08 |
| kalikiana | ie. export DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:2 | 23:08 |
| Quibus | Yeah, that part worked | 23:08 |
| Quibus | Gives me a nice basic Maemo run time env... but I have no idea how to get my app 'on' it :-) | 23:09 |
| lbt | ./myapp | 23:10 |
| Quibus | hmm | 23:10 |
| Quibus | Let's just try that when compilation is done (almsot now) | 23:10 |
| Quibus | OK done | 23:12 |
| crashanddie | ~ping | 23:12 |
| infobot | ~pong | 23:12 |
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| AakashPatel | lbt: what if its a command line app | 23:12 |
| AakashPatel | will it output in the term? | 23:12 |
| lbt | yes | 23:12 |
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| melmoth | Quibus: run-standalone.sh ./myapps | 23:13 |
| Quibus | hmm | 23:13 |
| Quibus | yesterday it worked, now it segfaults | 23:13 |
| qwerty12_N900 | GeneralAntilles: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=396767#post396767 - go on, sort 'im out | 23:13 |
| Quibus | the af-sb-init.sh start | 23:14 |
| AakashPatel | i had that happen to me | 23:14 |
| AakashPatel | i restarted my comp and it worked | 23:14 |
| Quibus | shoot, forgot to start Xephyr itself :S | 23:15 |
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| Quibus | still segfaulting | 23:16 |
| GAN900 | RST38h, were your Nintendo emulators taken down from maemo.org? | 23:17 |
| Quibus | /usr/bin/af-sb-init.sh: line 302: 7933 Segmentation fault /usr/bin/hildon-status-menu | 23:17 |
| clmntch | sounds like yer in the ARMTEL env | 23:17 |
| Quibus | no, was in x86 all the time | 23:18 |
| clmntch | hrm | 23:18 |
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| lcuk | i need a stand for my n900 | 23:22 |
| lcuk | a usable pokeable dock style stand | 23:22 |
| * lcuk gets the chisel out | 23:22 | |
| RST38h | GAN: Probably, I have not checked yet | 23:22 |
| Myrtti | lcuk: http://www.mobilefun.co.uk/desk-genie-non-slip-charging-desk-stand-p22432.htm | 23:22 |
| pillar | my n900 didn't alert that the battery was getting empty while on the phone | 23:23 |
| pillar | it just died | 23:23 |
| Hydroxide | lcuk: beyond the built-in kickstand? it does seem less useful than expected, indeed | 23:23 |
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| GAN900 | RST38h, with your permission and by whom? | 23:24 |
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| RST38h | GAN: Tero asked if he can take them down, I said yes | 23:24 |
| GAN900 | OK | 23:25 |
| GAN900 | Christ what a bunch of stupid BS | 23:25 |
| RST38h | Well, weren't you the one saying that we do not need any third party repos? :) | 23:26 |
| Myrtti | irony detected ;-) | 23:27 |
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| Quibus | wtf, for some reason my Debian VM suddenly boots with 720x400 resolution! | 23:28 |
| Stskeeps | TV out? | 23:28 |
| Quibus | Stskeeps: I just rebooted, then it didn't boot with fsck complaining about superblocks with a timestamp in the future. Then i corrected that and rebooted and now this. | 23:29 |
| GAN900 | RST38h, I'm not sure I agree with Nokia's legal department dictation content on maemo.org like that. | 23:29 |
| lcuk | Myrtti Hydroxide, thats cool, but im used to these, http://liqbase.net/crate_n810.JPG | 23:29 |
| crashanddie | GAN900, what's up? | 23:29 |
| GAN900 | RST38h, you're the guy that sells these things, what legal ground is Nokia standing on here? | 23:29 |
| lcuk | and now i have n900, its not quite right http://liqbase.net/crate_n900.JPG | 23:29 |
| GAN900 | crashanddie, removing Nintendo emulators from maemo.org | 23:30 |
| crashanddie | oh | 23:30 |
| crashanddie | well, they're paying for the hosting right? | 23:30 |
| lcuk | pillar, ouch! | 23:30 |
| GAN900 | I definitely think we need a policy for this stuff. | 23:30 |
| Stskeeps | GAN900: maemo.org isn't a seperate legal entity so fwiw, they're protecting us and i doubt they did it happily | 23:30 |
| crashanddie | so they're legally responsible for the content on there... I don't know what the legal status of emulators is, but it's probably a cover-our-asses jerk reaction | 23:31 |
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| crashanddie | which we can no doubt reverse with a proper discussion | 23:31 |
| Stskeeps | (that i personally think maemo.org should be a legal entity is something else) | 23:31 |
| pillar | lcuk it took me a while to understand what happened, for a minute I was afraid that something broke when it was able to boot up to Nokia screen and then died again | 23:32 |
| crashanddie | Well, we did talk about creating a Maemo office in London... | 23:32 |
| GAN900 | Stskeeps, that was actually the impression I was under based on the discussions from last year. . . . | 23:32 |
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| GAN900 | Can somebody with some background in these issues create a thread on -community? | 23:33 |
| RST38h | GAN: Well, emulators themselves do not appear to infringe on any IP but their use may | 23:33 |
| GAN900 | At the very least, packages shouldn't be disappearing from maemo.org without a peep. | 23:33 |
| Stskeeps | GAN900: instead of attacking nokia i think the focus should be on what to do next time a DMCA complaint comes in | 23:33 |
| RST38h | GAN: So, I suspect those highly public demos Nokia guys have done at nokiablogs weren't very wise | 23:33 |
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| GAN900 | RST38h, bittorrent clients fall under the same definition. | 23:34 |
| Stskeeps | GAN900: and they didn't remove things without asking first, it seems like. | 23:34 |
| GAN900 | Stskeeps, not attacking anybody. | 23:34 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: that is true.. it was a little too daring | 23:35 |
| GAN900 | Stskeeps, just trying to figure out what's happening here, what our status is and how we can better handle it in the future. | 23:35 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: They should have at least used a pd game | 23:35 |
| lcuk | this shitstorm is not that they exist, nor that they exist for maemo.org, as RST38h rightfully and carefully points out he never supplies roms with anyof his emus. that part isnt for discussion, if the emus are temporarily offline whilst things are sorted out i say just let it happen and there isnt much to discuss right now | 23:35 |
| * RST38h yawns | 23:36 | |
| * w00t thinks lcuk sounds sane, really | 23:36 | |
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| crashanddie | for once | 23:36 |
| crashanddie | :P | 23:36 |
| Hydroxide | I don't think nokia needs to make any huge public statement if they take it down with the advance permission of the uploader. though I do hope it gets sorted out and the emus re-added | 23:36 |
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| RST38h | This story is getting way too much publicity. Things will end up with tenfold more kiddiez using those emulators on Maemo now. And this is NOT good for anybody | 23:37 |
| Quibus | OK, once you have started the "simulator" whilst having forgotten to start Xephyr first, there's no way you will be able to start it properly if you haven't rebooted. Probably killing those dbus procs might avoid it though | 23:37 |
| qwerty12_N900 | RST38h: You've been writing emulators for years now; have you ever recieved any legal complaints or the like? | 23:37 |
| Hydroxide | even debian distributes emulators, and debian doesn't take many legal risks | 23:37 |
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| RST38h | qwerty: About my own stuff? No. About stuff that some people placed at their servers and there was some of my files? Yes. | 23:37 |
| w00t | Hydroxide: yet I'm quite sure they'd yank them, at least temporarily, if legal complaints got sent their way, and I don't think anyone would be blaming them really | 23:38 |
| RST38h | qwerty: I simply directed Nintendo guys to the appropriate sysadmin. | 23:38 |
| qwerty12_N900 | Makes sense. | 23:38 |
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| Hydroxide | w00t: it would be good to define the procedure in advance, yes. just noting that isn't what happened here. | 23:38 |
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| crashanddie | ~ping | 23:40 |
| infobot | ~pong | 23:40 |
| GAN900 | I think we really need Nokia to not be liable for maemo.org. | 23:40 |
| Quibus | OK, I just ran my app and it appears on the Xephyr display :-) | 23:40 |
| Quibus | cool | 23:40 |
| Stskeeps | GAN900: the problem is then, who is.. :P | 23:40 |
| * AakashADP1 is | 23:41 | |
| AakashADP1 | :0 | 23:41 |
| * w00t votes Stskeeps | 23:41 | |
| SpeedEvil | GAN900: Problem is that nokia will - for obvious reasons - want control of the software site. | 23:41 |
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| crashanddie | something.... or someone.. | 23:41 |
| qwerty12_N900 | Stskeeps: You're the Distmaster. Why do you think that role was invented? ;) | 23:41 |
| w00t | SpeedEvil: I don't think it's really fair to put words in their mouth | 23:41 |
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| Stskeeps | qwerty12_N900: disastermaster, thank you very much | 23:41 |
| w00t | Stskeeps: fitting title, then | 23:41 |
| Quibus | melmoth: run-standalone doesn't show my app, but if I just run it with the proper DISPLAY set, it shows up | 23:41 |
| Stskeeps | SpeedEvil: err.. doubt it | 23:41 |
| Stskeeps | SpeedEvil: open source projects are either on gitorious or on garage.maemo.org | 23:42 |
| RST38h | GAN: Extras = Maemo Select | 23:42 |
| AakashADP1 | whats the issue being discussed? | 23:42 |
| hexa | is there a way to run parts of the application stack on scratchbox like telepathy mission control for example or the whole stack if possible... ? or if I want to do it I need to recompile it all .. ? | 23:42 |
| RST38h | GAN: So, can't claim that no liability thing | 23:42 |
| * AakashADP1 missed it | 23:42 | |
| Quibus | hmm, after a while, it does show up | 23:42 |
| lcuk | i keep seeing localized app distribution. passed only in person. | 23:43 |
| crashanddie | Quibus, IRC isn't twitter | 23:43 |
| Quibus | crashanddie: I apologize, I'm just enthusiastic about getting something working :-) | 23:43 |
| lcuk | crashanddie, i use it as such | 23:43 |
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| crashanddie | lcuk, my apologies, God, you must be right, O creator of the universe. We shall all follow your example, for you make the right decisions and know what is best | 23:44 |
| vasily_pupkin | anybody use nx with n810? | 23:44 |
| lcuk | of course crashanddie thanks | 23:44 |
| lcuk | you can carry on now | 23:44 |
| crashanddie | anytime, my Lord | 23:44 |
| qwerty12_N900 | He comes from bloody Manchester! | 23:44 |
| qwerty12_N900 | I ain't following him :p | 23:45 |
| AakashADP1 | haha | 23:45 |
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| Hydroxide | Stskeeps: did you say earlier that you were at debconf this year? so was I, but I don't think we met. | 23:47 |
| GAN900 | RST38h, Maemo Select has a filter. | 23:47 |
| GAN900 | RST38h, it's not everything in Extras. | 23:48 |
| * lcuk has beer | 23:48 | |
| * lcuk offers a £7 pint to crashanddie | 23:48 | |
| Stskeeps | Hydroxide: did a BoF in that awfully hot room on Mer | 23:48 |
| * lcuk gets qwerty12_N900 a glass of vimto | 23:48 | |
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| * crashanddie has a beer | 23:48 | |
| * lcuk offers convulted a beer | 23:49 | |
| qwerty12_N900 | lcuk: Coke and we have a deal | 23:49 |
| lcuk | GeneralAntilles, do you want a miller light? | 23:49 |
| crashanddie | budweiser light | 23:49 |
| Flandry | Quibus: you don't have to reboot, just run the shutdown and then start it again | 23:49 |
| * lcuk gets qwerty12_N900 a bag of coke | 23:49 | |
| * convulted drinks his beer and buys another round | 23:49 | |
| Quibus | Flandry: 'the shutdown'? | 23:49 |
| Hydroxide | Stskeeps: ah, great. wearing my DebConf10 local team lead hat, I think I can assure you that all of the venue rooms next year will be a nicer temperature :) | 23:49 |
| qwerty12_N900 | lcuk: Thanks. :) I take that Manchester comment back | 23:50 |
| Flandry | f-sb-init.sh stop | 23:50 |
| convulted | (Apologies to anyone who was here a few hours ago...) Can anyone help me with drawing on a pixbuf and/or gtk.Image? | 23:50 |
| Stskeeps | Hydroxide: hopefully.. :P probably not going next year though | 23:50 |
| Hydroxide | Stskeeps: ah well :/ | 23:50 |
| lcuk | convulted, gulp | 23:50 |
| lcuk | whats happening wrong | 23:50 |
| w00t | Hydroxide: kidnap him | 23:50 |
| lcuk | and which lang | 23:50 |
| qwerty12_N900 | Stskeeps: Don't they serve free cheese at the DebConf events? | 23:50 |
| lcuk | cos theres more than one way to skin a cat in maemo | 23:50 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12_N900: ...... | 23:50 |
| lcuk | as you know | 23:50 |
| qwerty12_N900 | Stskeeps: :D | 23:51 |
| lcuk | oooh yeah, i never offered Stskeeps a carlsberg | 23:51 |
| Hydroxide | Stskeeps: we're hosting it at Columbia University in main academic buildings, so I think they have the temperature control down | 23:51 |
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| Hydroxide | qwerty12_N900: indeed, a cheese and wine party is traditional :) | 23:51 |
| crashanddie | Hydroxide, it's a uni, there is no heating | 23:51 |
| qwerty12_N900 | Hydroxide: Stskeeps'll be glad to hear that :) | 23:51 |
| lcuk | Hydroxide, qwerty likes to whine | 23:51 |
| Stskeeps | Hydroxide: heh, in .dk, academic buildings often don't have AC. state owned - hence no AC | 23:51 |
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| Flandry | here it's either an inferno or fridge | 23:51 |
| *** AndChat| is now known as AakashADP1 | 23:52 | |
| Flandry | usually an inferno in the winter unfortunately | 23:52 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, but you are in denmark - does it actually get warm enough to need ac? | 23:52 |
| Hydroxide | Stskeeps: and yet, this being the US, they have a different attitude toward that :) | 23:52 |
| Stskeeps | lcuk: occasionally | 23:52 |
| lcuk | lol i can see why its not needed most of the time | 23:52 |
| Hydroxide | Stskeeps: actually, the conference housing people are even putting AC window units in those residence hall rooms we're using which don't already have AC | 23:52 |
| lcuk | its heaters | 23:52 |
| * RST38h wouldn't be able to live through his studies without AC | 23:52 | |
| RST38h | Not in MD | 23:52 |
| Hydroxide | so everyone should have sufficient temperature control indoors, even despite the conference occurring in August | 23:53 |
| Flandry | went to dupont in summer a couple years ago and it was indeed warm | 23:53 |
| lcuk | where are you now RST38h | 23:53 |
| RST38h | In fact, we had to rig the AC to continue working, when university turned it down "for power saving" | 23:53 |
| lcuk | apart from in hiding | 23:53 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Not anywhere that requires AC :) | 23:53 |
| lcuk | cool | 23:54 |
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| GAN900 | lcuk, got any cranberry juice? | 23:54 |
| lcuk | no, but theres some warm prune juice on the side | 23:54 |
| lcuk | i think qwerty spat in it tho | 23:55 |
| *** NGNUton-B is now known as gnuton | 23:55 | |
| qwerty12_N900 | After finding lcuk jerked off in it | 23:55 |
| lcuk | :( | 23:55 |
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| lcuk | twas once, why do you have to keep mentioning that | 23:56 |
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