IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2009-11-21

Milo-	great, got further...	00:00
Milo-	ERROR: Scratchbox is not properly set up!	00:00
Milo-	E: Scratchbox command 'sb-conf setup' returned error 0.	00:00
Milo-	8D	00:00
Milo-	ERROR: Not allowed to run this as root!	00:01
Milo-	ah, no wonder	00:01
Milo-	but the installer is required to be run as a root	00:01
VDVsx	who said that the portrait more ins't in all apps: http://share.ovi.com/album/yerga.Maemo5portraitb	00:02
VDVsx	hihi	00:02
pupnik_	anybody got a zeemote ?	00:03
woglinde	bye	00:03
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qwerty12_N810	VDVsx: Have you had any requests to make BlueMaemo support portrait mode? :p	00:03
VDVsx	qwerty12_N810, not yet	00:04
GeneralAntilles	BlueMaemo doesn't support portrait?	00:04
GeneralAntilles	Deal breaker!	00:04
VDVsx	qwerty12_N810, but some profiles will have portrait at least	00:04
microlith	onoes	00:04
VDVsx	:P	00:04
VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, BlueMaemo will be the next think tank :P	00:05
RST38h	BlueMaemo also does not send MMSes	00:05
RST38h	Not gonna succeed without MMSes, no...	00:05
qwerty12_N810	RST38h: WTF	00:05
RST38h	what? 8)	00:06
GeneralAntilles	NOK1A SUX	00:06
qwerty12_N810	VDVsx: I want a refund, now!	00:06
microlith	what do you mean I can't send low rez images at an inflated price?!	00:06
Milo-	how am I supposed to run /opt/scratchbox/tools/bin/sb-conf ?	00:06
VDVsx	qwerty12_N810, sorry you are not eligible for a refund :P	00:07
Milo-	as root it says it can't be ran as root	00:07
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GeneralAntilles	qwerty12_N810, in fact, if you want to send it back you gotta pay. :P	00:07
Milo-	and as regular user, it says no permissions, even though it's chmodded properly :D	00:07
qwerty12_N810	VDVsx: Gah, you Ageist :p	00:07
hexa	for a new app should I use gtk/hildon or QT ? dev guide seems to point to hildon/gtk.. but i'm confused with qt being maybe the future on maemo ?	00:08
VDVsx	hexa, do you know both ?	00:09
hexa	VDVsx, got more exp with glib but never really touched gtk.. so I guess neither..	00:09
hexa	VDVsx, but I don't want to recode my gui in a year...	00:10
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VDVsx	hexa, IMHO Qt isn't ready yet for maemo5, there's some limitations, so you've to choose :D	00:10
hexa	VDVsx, humm any doc on those limitations somewhere?	00:12
Milo-	seriously? how is this supposed to be run as regular user?	00:12
Milo-	Traceback (most recent call last):	00:12
Milo-	File "/opt/scratchbox/tools/bin/sb-conf", line 10, in <module>	00:12
Milo-	os.execv(chroot,[chroot,p.basename(sys.argv[0])]+sys.argv[1:])	00:12
Milo-	OSError: [Errno 13] Permission denied	00:12
VDVsx	hexa, probably, 1 sec	00:12
Milo-	it makes a system call to chroot, which can only be accessed as root	00:13
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lbt	Milo-: you do know how sbox works?	00:13
Milo-	yes, creates a chrooted environment	00:13
lbt	intercepting system calls etc	00:13
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Milo-	it's a sandbox, sort of	00:13
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lbt	allowing it to divert calls to binaries of it's own choosing	00:13
Milo-	lbt but I cannot install it, since it doesn't let me run the command as regular user	00:14
Milo-	and it can't be ran us root	00:14
lbt	playing fakeroot-like games	00:14
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lbt	nod	00:14
VDVsx	hexa, some here: http://wiki.maemo.org/Qt4_Hildon/Qt_Hildon_Widgets	00:14
lbt	it's a very complex system.... not 'just an application'	00:14
hexa	VDVsx, great thx :) I'll take a look	00:15
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lbt	you need to install it as the devs intended...	00:15
VDVsx	hexa, there's probably more and some of the stuff there is already outdated since last maemo-Qt release	00:15
hexa	VDVsx, yeah it's ok I'll search some more myself.. just wanted to get the feeling of the devs here...	00:15
VDVsx	hexa, but if you have doubts, the people at #qt-maemo can help for sure	00:15
hexa	VDVsx, thx :)	00:15
hexa	VDVsx, ho good to know :)	00:16
lbt	hexa: for me.... Qt	00:16
lbt	but it isn't quite ready	00:16
lbt	OTOH if you're learning... it'll be ready by the time your first app is ready for extras	00:16
hexa	lbt, :) that's kinda was I was wondering :) so we're taling like 6 months not 2 years...	00:17
Macer	damn. charlzie theron looks horrible in monster	00:17
lbt	less	00:17
Macer	those crazy make up artists can do anything	00:17
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hexa	lbt, k :) even better ,, I don't think I'll make it in less then 4..	00:18
lbt	my guess is <3 months before Qt apps will be accepted into extras	00:18
Macer	is like	00:18
Macer	the n900 out yet? :)	00:18
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hexa	lbt, nice :) I'll really consider it then	00:19
lbt	hexa: I'm not even sure that you can't put Qt in extras today. Core Qt is on the shipping image	00:19
* lbt must push Shopper		00:19
Mek	with a beta qt4.6 in extras-devel promoting stuff without also promiting that qt4.6 beta would be hard though... :)	00:19
hexa	lbt, but regardless of the distribution... the point is will I be able to do something comparable to hildon /gtk.. in like 3-6 months with qt..	00:20
lbt	Mek: yes, I'm not up to date... :)	00:20
lbt	hexa: you can do that already	00:20
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lbt	or do you mean personal learning curve	00:20
hexa	lbt, nah I meant qt status... nice :)	00:21
lbt	Qt status is pretty much 1st class already	00:21
hexa	guess I'll go qt then :)	00:21
TomaszD	lbt looks like we'll meet again	00:21
ali1234	how does the n900 backup tool work for "application list?" does it just save the list, and then install them again using apt?	00:21
lbt	:)	00:21
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lbt	ali1234: think so...	00:22
lbt	TomaszD: I'm not accepted yet	00:22
ali1234	is it gonna break when my custom repo is not available?	00:22
hexa	lbt, is there still something like a liscence to pay to do qt apps or something or is it all free now btw ? .. /me a bit out of date on it..	00:22
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lbt	ali1234: yes	00:22
ali1234	i guess i'll find out in a minute...	00:22
lbt	hexa: all LGPL	00:22
TomaszD	lbt, but anyone can come, you're talking about sponsorship?	00:22
tKMFDM	ali1234, i also makea repo list	00:22
hexa	lbt, k :)	00:22
lbt	TomaszD: yes	00:22
tKMFDM	i thought	00:22
tKMFDM	or not	00:22
ali1234	i think i'll just start again anyway	00:23
lbt	ali1234: :)	00:23
ali1234	does anyone know of a program for winmob which adds bluetooth contact sync without doing it one vcard at a time?	00:23
* lbt hasn't flashed yet as I wanted to sync my contacts		00:23
TomaszD	lbt still got your Mer business card somewhere lol	00:23
lbt	TomaszD: framed I hope!	00:23
ali1234	i don't have anything to sync contacts with except my winmob phone which doesn't support contact syncing with anything but outlook, which i dont have	00:24
TomaszD	of course, and bathed in golden leafs	00:24
lbt	heh	00:24
lbt	we should find a printer to setup to do them for team members	00:24
TomaszD	anyways, I'll be contacting you once I get there to look for ice cream	00:25
lbt	<grin> I look forward to it	00:25
TomaszD	and kebab	00:25
TomaszD	it's gonna be great. I wonder why Stskeeps isn't coming :P	00:26
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GeneralAntilles	Indeed	00:27
GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps!	00:27
TomaszD	he's asleep	00:27
lbt	TomaszD: have to ask him ... maybe time?	00:27
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lbt	right	00:27
TomaszD	and I should be sleeping too, I've got a rally to attend to tomorrow	00:27
* lbt needs sleep		00:27
TomaszD	gotta wake up at 5 :(	00:28
lbt	heh g'night all	00:28
* lcukn900 really needs sleep		00:28
lcukn900	gnite lbt	00:28
* lbt leaves machine building		00:28
TomaszD	gnite all	00:28
lbt	night lcukn900	00:28
qwerty12_N810	lcuk: So, instead, you come on IRC? =)	00:28
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* lcukn900 is gonna write a scratchbox bible		00:30
lcukn900	and nail that sucka once and forall	00:30
pupnik_	mmh should be a nice night to try wlan	00:32
javispedro	The Scratchbox bible in one sentence: you prayed the wrong god.	00:32
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lcukn900	wlan works great. i even found out last night ive got a great dongle with master mode	00:33
lcukn900	lol javis	00:33
* qwerty12_N810 notes to never buy books authored by javispedro... they are anything but value for money		00:34
VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, did you tried the app ? :D	00:34
javispedro	qwerty12_N810: not my book! not my book! I'm just reviewing someone else's.	00:34
qwerty12_N810	OK, OK, I take that back :p	00:34
javispedro	thanks.	00:35
* javispedro writes a book about android fonts and ensures qwerty12_N810 will get a copy.		00:35
derf	qwerty12_N810: What are you talking about. The full text of his book was published online for free.	00:35
* lcukn900 would buy javiss book "opengl into the vertex"		00:35
qwerty12_N810	derf: Lemme just go and put on my "Dunce" hat...	00:36
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lcukn900	id vote for android font book	00:37
GeneralAntilles	VDVsx, refreshing. . . .	00:37
qwerty12_N810	javispedro: It must have "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog"	00:38
GeneralAntilles	VDVsx, repository is still trashed.	00:38
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javispedro	The lazy dog jumps over the quick brown fox, ok.	00:39
VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, works here	00:39
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VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, ups, actually doesn't work :p	00:40
GeneralAntilles	Akamai	00:40
qwerty12_N810	Someone should upload a "make-the-fucking-repository-work" package and dch -i each time it messes up	00:41
javispedro	the fact that's not standard debian would be tomorrow's dealbreaker	00:41
SpeedEvil	I want slackware on my phone personally.	00:43
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javispedro	I want Haiku. Which IRC channel do I invade?	00:43
javispedro	other than this one, of course :)	00:43
pupnik_	hm	00:44
pupnik_	howdo i quit openarena?	00:44
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* lcukn900 is pullin up home. bbl o/		00:46
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javispedro	bye lcuk	00:48
javispedro	ouch.	00:48
uhsf	have you seen the nokia n900 ad, i thought it was weird but kinda cool	00:50
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uhsf	i hate engadget so much, they always have to piss on everything linux and they're just retarded apple sellouts	00:56
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Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: not coming cos of thesis	01:08
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GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, blah blah blah.	01:12
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GeneralAntilles	RXrenesis8!	01:19
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RXrenesis8	mwah!	01:20
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javispedro	Dear Nokia, Please also include a pony with the N900, or else I'm not going to buy it.	01:38
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uhsf	unless they ever make an unlocked gsm n900 it's still just another suck phone	01:40
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greenfly	uhsf: ? the n900 is gsm and is unlocked	01:42
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uhsf	anyway it's not available in canada	01:42
GeneralAntilles	uhsf, er, yeah, what greenfly said.	01:42
GeneralAntilles	It's not really available anywhere, yet.	01:42
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GeneralAntilles	Except for two flagship stores in the US.	01:43
ds3	are list prices available for the US (legit, nongraymarket)?	01:43
lcuk	javispedro, including a piny would make the box a bit bigger and require additional FCC checks and air holes and stuff	01:43
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javispedro	dealbreaker!	01:43
greenfly	lcuk: too bad, if Nokia doesn't include it, they will be out a few hundred bucks	01:43
greenfly	which will take down their entire global operation	01:44
uhsf	everywhere it's like nokia n900 now shipping to america. give me a f* break usa doen't mean america	01:44
GeneralAntilles	ds3, $649 direct from Nokia.	01:45
GeneralAntilles	ds3, Amazon has it for $479.99 with a $50 register-for-Ovi mail-in-rebate.	01:45
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wiretapped	n900 does include a pony, rtfm n00b	01:45
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GeneralAntilles	uhsf, nobody said "america".	01:45
GeneralAntilles	uhsf, and it's not SHIPPING here.	01:45
wiretapped	I've used two n900's now	01:46
wiretapped	still don't know where i'm buying mine	01:46
greenfly	the n900 is barely available in the flagship cities in the US, much less those states and definitely not in the rest of the US	01:46
GeneralAntilles	uhsf, the two flagship stores in the US, apparently, got about 200 units apiece and have started selling them to people on the waitlist.	01:46
GeneralAntilles	uhsf, so either chill out or leave.	01:46
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GeneralAntilles	Hey, ho, it worked!	01:47
microlith	hey I think this place just got better	01:47
* GeneralAntilles puts the banhammer back up on the mantle.		01:47
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ds3	GA: thanks.	01:47
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GeneralAntilles	ds3, you ought to rip out the internals for your infernal machine. :P	01:48
javispedro	this is not helping my chances of getting a DDP pony!	01:48
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GeneralAntilles	wiretapped, you aren't going to DDP, by the way?	01:48
asdm	I have a N770 I enabled usb host mode and installed Carman app and i plugged in the USB OBD reader to the N770 its registers at address5 but i think the porgram only reads bluetooth devices	01:49
asdm	is there a way i can make the usb look like a bluetooth device to n770	01:49
wiretapped	I'd like to get the DDP	01:49
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wiretapped	but i haven't got a reply	01:49
wiretapped	just got the first mail saying i qualified	01:49
GeneralAntilles	wiretapped, you check the eStore?	01:50
GeneralAntilles	I didn't get any email, either, but the N900 suddenly appeared on the website.	01:50
wiretapped	just when i signed up	01:50
wiretapped	oh	01:50
wiretapped	hmm	01:50
wiretapped	checking now	01:50
GeneralAntilles	https://pro.forum.nokia.com/productList.do	01:50
Milo-	hmm, http://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=327217 I'm getting exactly the same error, but I don't have vdso enabled in my kernel and therefore vdso cannot be disabled by echoing..	01:51
GeneralAntilles	lol, N75 for €240.54 or N900 for €250.	01:51
wiretapped	nope, N75 is the only device available to me there :(	01:51
GeneralAntilles	Hrm	01:51
GeneralAntilles	logged in?	01:51
wiretapped	yeah	01:51
GeneralAntilles	Try reloading a couple time.	01:51
Milo-	and even though the date is from nearly 2 years ago, I'm trying to install maemo5-sdk, and that fails with exactly the same message	01:51
Milo-	any help?	01:51
GeneralAntilles	You Forum Nokia matches your maemo.org username, presumably?	01:51
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javispedro	Milo-, you don't have vdso? are you exactly sure?	01:52
javispedro	s/vdso/randomized vdso	01:52
wiretapped	no my maemo.org username is just my first name and that was already taken, so my forum nokia name is my email address (same email used for maemo.org)	01:52
Milo-	searched kernel and it says VDSO=n	01:52
GeneralAntilles	wiretapped, and when you emailed the DDP address you indicated such?	01:52
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wiretapped	yeah	01:53
Milo-	I assume it's "Compat VDSO support"	01:53
GeneralAntilles	Hrm, odd.	01:53
ds3	GA: if the 3G modem is unlock....	01:53
Milo-	and that I have disabled	01:53
GeneralAntilles	Well, I'd suggest emailing them again.	01:53
Milo-	oh	01:53
GeneralAntilles	ds3, unlocked as in the carrier subsidy definition or not-a-blackbox definition?	01:54
Milo-	glibc adds randomized VDSO	01:54
Milo-	did not know that	01:54
ds3	what is annoying is almost every ~4" screen device with a fast ARM has at least one fatal flaw :(	01:54
javispedro	Milo-: Compat VDSO support is exactly what you need to _enable_	01:54
ds3	GA: subsidy lock	01:54
GeneralAntilles	ds3, they don't sell it subsidized through any carrier in the US as of yet.	01:54
GeneralAntilles	So, yes, it's unlocked.	01:54
Milo-	javispedro oh, I thought I needed to _disable_ it :o	01:54
ds3	Oh	01:54
RXrenesis8	€250, that's only $370... wow	01:54
GeneralAntilles	(At that $479.99 price, by the way)	01:54
ds3	the sales guy at the TMO store hints they may pickup the N900	01:55
Milo-	javispedro I need to enable it so I can disable it? :)	01:55
javispedro	Milo-: disable randomized vdso (which is what compat vdso does)	01:55
Milo-	ah	01:55
GeneralAntilles	ds3, so the rumors say, but I'm guessing that'll be next year some point.	01:55
GeneralAntilles	ds3, for now they're all free and clear. ;)	01:55
javispedro	Milo-: did you build sbox?	01:55
Milo-	yes	01:55
Milo-	login fails	01:55
GeneralAntilles	RXrenesis8, you can get cool discounts, too, when you become a cool cat. :P http://maemo.org/profile/list/	01:55
ds3	GA: problem is, my N800 is on its last legs and I need a hand held device	01:55
ds3	so if I get one, it will not be torn apart	01:55
javispedro	Milo-: in which case you may want to patch sbox's used glibc with	01:55
GeneralAntilles	ds3, get two! :P	01:56
javispedro	Milo-: http://lists.scratchbox.org/pipermail/scratchbox-devel/2009-August/000457.html	01:56
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ds3	GA: the other thing is the TMO guys won't tell me a straight story on if my current dataplan SIM will work	01:56
GeneralAntilles	ds3, well, as an N800 owner from day 1, I can nothing but recommend the N900.	01:56
GeneralAntilles	(been using it since September on AT&T)	01:56
GeneralAntilles	ds3, Web'n'Walk?	01:56
ds3	GA: does it have the 2 SD slots i.e. is it crippled like the N810?	01:56
GeneralAntilles	1 microSD slot	01:56
GeneralAntilles	But it has 32GB built-in	01:56
pupnik_	anybody see what cpu load pulse audio typically takes for speaker playback - always 17-18%?	01:57
GeneralAntilles	So not as bad as it seems.	01:57
ds3	oh 32G...how much of that 32G is usable?	01:57
GeneralAntilles	2GB is used for application installation space, 768MB for swap and the rest is free.	01:57
ds3	is it like the 2G inside the 810? where 80%+ is used from day one	01:57
Milo-	javispedro is that a patch to glibc or the scratchbox-toolchain-*-glibc?	01:57
pupnik_	i just figured one could implement a 0.5ms delay to get a 1000hz notch filter	01:57
GeneralAntilles	Well, um, there'll be some number of cached Ovi Maps maps in there, too.	01:57
GeneralAntilles	But those can be removed.	01:57
pupnik_	or maybe an inverted qms delay	01:57
pupnik_	1ms	01:57
javispedro	Milo-: scratchbox-core/libs.	01:57
javispedro	not any of the toolchains.	01:58
javispedro	basically search for rtld.c somewhere in the sbox "core" tarball and patch that	01:58
ds3	if I can get 16G free, I can tolerate it	01:58
pupnik_	start filming video and watch it fill up	01:59
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pupnik_	the video isnt as wavy as with cheap phones, quite nice	01:59
GeneralAntilles	ds3, I think the maps will be in the 500MB-1.5GB range.	02:00
GeneralAntilles	ds3, it depends on region, though. That'd be my bet for US.	02:00
ds3	fill up? surely, it has a real time compression through the DSP, right? :D	02:00
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ds3	GA: I was very disappointed at their demo maps; this is to the point where I much rather use maemo-mapper anyday	02:01
GeneralAntilles	Maemo Mapper's being ported to Clutter	02:01
GeneralAntilles	So it should be much friendlier on the N900.	02:01
ds3	is the GSM module data only or did they bring out the mic and speaker so it can be used as a speaker phone?	02:02
GeneralAntilles	Ovi Maps on the N900 sucks.	02:02
GeneralAntilles	It's a cellphone.	02:02
ds3	I am happy with the current Maemo mapper	02:02
GeneralAntilles	Earpiece and everything.	02:02
ds3	well... except for its choking on huge track files	02:02
GeneralAntilles	Yeah	02:02
ds3	OHHHHHHH	02:02
Milo-	javispedro gah, gentoo provides binary packages only, so I guess I'll start this building from scratch ._·	02:02
GeneralAntilles	Hardware will help with that.	02:02
GeneralAntilles	ds3, which rock and where? :P	02:02
javispedro	Milo-: don't understimate the task of building sbox.	02:02
ds3	rock?	02:02
GeneralAntilles	Have you been hiding under. ;)	02:03
Milo-	javispedro well it seems like I will have to build it :)	02:03
Milo-	only binaries available through portage	02:03
javispedro	good luck.	02:03
GeneralAntilles	If you've got a data plan appended to your voice plan with T-Mobile right now it should work fine.	02:03
ds3	some big chunk in the easter island :D	02:03
ds3	I got a data plan but no voice plan	02:03
Pavlov	anyone made a google maps app for n900 yet?	02:03
GeneralAntilles	Ah	02:03
Milo-	javispedro simply turning on the VDSO in kernel would fix this though?	02:03
Pavlov	one that doesn't take 15 minutes to start?	02:03
GeneralAntilles	It should work fine	02:03
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GeneralAntilles	since you can just drop them SIM in	02:04
ds3	can I export the EDGE/GPRS/3G/etc via the WiFi?	02:04
GeneralAntilles	and they don't have any real way to know what device you're using.	02:04
javispedro	Milo-: again, turning on compat VDSO == disabling randomizing VDSO	02:04
javispedro	yes.	02:04
GeneralAntilles	Not out of the box, but sure, that's something that can be setup easily enough	02:04
* lcuk burns vdso32=0 with fire		02:04
ds3	GA: some TMO folks say I have to get a new plan for the 3G stuff and other says I am all set	02:04
hardaker	Pavlov: an open street maps app existed for the n8xx devices, which would be better (IMHO) if that would get improvement. needs routing though.	02:04
GeneralAntilles	and I'm sure somebody will make a script or a nice utility to do it soon.	02:04
DrIDK	Is there any tutorial to install and make the hello word application with QT4 on the maemo5 SDK ?	02:04
ds3	GA: can it at least tether over BT?	02:04
Milo-	well, boot and retry	02:04
Pavlov	i mostly just want traffic and address searching	02:04
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ds3	the problem is will they be able to get the WiLink firmware to run the N900 in a mix AP/Client mode	02:05
GeneralAntilles	ds3, not out of the box, but it's pretty trivial to setup. http://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_Unsupported_Bluetooth_profiles	02:05
* lcuk just wants a helicopter		02:05
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javispedro	Dear Nokia. Please provide me a helicopter with my N900 or else you will lose quite a large chunk of the smartphone market.	02:05
ds3	GA: did they bring out the S-Video or HDMI ports?	02:05
GeneralAntilles	The 3.5mm jack is A/V	02:06
GeneralAntilles	So, composite.	02:06
lcuk	does the pony require travel sickness pills?	02:06
GeneralAntilles	But it's the best looking composite I've ever seen.	02:06
ds3	WHOA	02:06
ds3	:)~~~~~~~	02:06
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ds3	it is a shame the Pico DLP doesn't support composite out of the box	02:06
lcuk	ds3, video out is absolutely stunning	02:06
andre__	hmm, helicopters... icecream machine would be cooler though.	02:06
GeneralAntilles	ds3, VGBA looks really good on composite.	02:06
lcuk	bacon grill is enough for me	02:06
* microlith wonders if he could borrow the reflow station at work to break out the dvi signals...		02:06
lcuk	not exactly an end user friendly modification	02:07
ds3	GA: I was looking for a portable way of getting a larger screen for the few rare cases I need it...i.e. show pictures at a camp site	02:07
javispedro	icecream! dealbreaker!!	02:07
* lcuk usd to do smt repair		02:07
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ds3	it doesn't ahve to look good... Beagle Board composite quality is acceptable ;)	02:07
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lcuk	ds3, ive had it on portable projectors	02:08
microlith	lcuk: 'course not, considering it'd require creation of a shim pcb to reroute those signals without altering the existing ones :>	02:08
lcuk	adhoc kitty teasing device (he chased tux around the wall!	02:08
ds3	lcuk: it depends... if you have a PicoDLP on hand....	02:08
lcuk	why take a picodlp	02:09
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lcuk	dont you carry a 32" tv in your pocket?	02:09
ds3	uh...err	02:09
lcuk	you could pimp your camper van	02:10
microlith	lcuk: the creases get distracting after a while...	02:10
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ds3	I like the Pico? :D	02:10
lcuk	is that a pico in your pocket or are you just cold?	02:10
ds3	heheh it doesn't get THAT hot ;)	02:11
* ds3 hides the dual opterons		02:11
lcuk	heh	02:12
* lcuk downloads new ubuntu		02:12
ds3	anyone tried running the gvm on the N900?	02:12
lcuk	whats gvm	02:13
ds3	Garnet Virtual Machine	02:13
lcuk	not me then	02:13
ds3	the Palm emulator from Access that is in Beta on the older devices	02:13
javispedro	qwerty12_N810 did.	02:13
ds3	was it painful to install?	02:13
ds3	the N900 seems like the ideal thing to replace the N800 tetering to a Treo	02:14
ds3	but for legacy reasons, I need the palm stuff	02:14
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javispedro	three words: keep the palm.	02:15
ds3	why?	02:15
ds3	don't trust garnet?	02:15
javispedro	don't.	02:16
ds3	overall, I am happy with the GVM	02:16
javispedro	well, if it works already for you...	02:16
ds3	I just need the datebook/todo list/memo things	02:17
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javispedro	try them on your n800 before jumping.	02:17
ds3	I did; it is just the expiration part that has me irked	02:17
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GeneralAntilles	ds3, Maemo 5 has calendar and todo.	02:19
GeneralAntilles	They're not perfect, but they're workable.	02:19
ds3	is it like the Gnome/KDE stuff?	02:19
ds3	I have yet to find something that is as useable as the Palm stuff	02:19
GeneralAntilles	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzdxID_mSlU	02:19
javispedro	ds3: good luck...	02:20
GeneralAntilles	Actually, all of these videos are pretty useful: http://www.youtube.com/user/Maemo5UITeam	02:20
ds3	can't look at them at the moment	02:20
Milo-	javispedro thank you :) the shell at least seems to work now	02:21
GeneralAntilles	Overview looks like this http://wiki.maemo.org/images/thumb/1/15/Calendar.png/500px-Calendar.png	02:21
simula	the vga out over video is sweet looking	02:21
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ds3	VGA out?!	02:22
anprrrrr	hello guys	02:22
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GeneralAntilles	Damn that Jon Reece!	02:23
ds3	GA: btw, the clear plastic version (less the buttons) is available for sale now	02:23
GeneralAntilles	Ha, awesome.	02:24
GeneralAntilles	Where?	02:24
anprrrrr	anyone from the UK ?	02:24
ds3	specialcomp but they been slow with listing the unit	02:24
GeneralAntilles	anprrrrr, lots of folks.	02:24
anprrrrr	any news ?	02:24
ds3	got to mail them	02:24
ds3	I also have them but I am mostly sold out (this is before listing it)	02:25
GeneralAntilles	Worst part is the lowres LCD. :(	02:25
ds3	nod working on fixing that	02:25
GeneralAntilles	Wish the N810 LCDs were readily available at a reasonable price.	02:25
ds3	other paying projects has been preempting a 800x480 version	02:25
pupnik_	i never know whether to use MyDocs or MyDocs/.documents (which is annoying)	02:27
ds3	with the higher speed of the 900, has anyone gotten a HP48 emulator working at a reasonable speed yet?	02:28
ds3	i.e. x48	02:28
pupnik_	ty GeneralAntilles for uiteam link	02:28
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* lardman goes to bed		02:28
lardman	night all	02:28
javispedro	nite	02:28
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GeneralAntilles	ds3, haven't noticed if anybody's uploaded one.	02:29
GeneralAntilles	ds3, Almost TI85 works like a charm, though. ;)	02:29
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ds3	well... I kind of like the stack	02:29
ds3	it is like having an adding tape machine	02:29
ds3	what puzzles me is the HP48 emulator works fine on a PXA270 device (Treo) but it chokes on the OMAP2 N800	02:30
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Dantonic	man where is the N900!!!! where is it??! AAAAAAAAH	02:31
javispedro	in tmo.	02:31
* GeneralAntilles throws a wet towel over Dantonic.		02:31
Dantonic	omg so tired of waiting :P	02:32
microlith	such antsy people	02:32
Dantonic	now my order on amazon says I have to wait until after December 25th!!!	02:32
ds3	If everything people say is true, there is no point in getting an Archos 5 and reflashing it	02:32
GeneralAntilles	Dantonic, next week seems to the current favorite.	02:32
Dantonic	I hope so	02:32
Dantonic	I'm debating re-ordering it to get the extra $50 rebate from nokia	02:32
GeneralAntilles	Dantonic, my bet is that you'll be able to get it anyway.	02:33
Dantonic	I'm on the phone with amazon right now actually.. on hold	02:33
ds3	does the N900 use the microUSB charger a-la N810 or the standard Nokia chargers?	02:33
GeneralAntilles	ds3, microUSB	02:33
ds3	SIGH	02:33
GeneralAntilles	The N810 used the standard Nokia charger, though.	02:33
javispedro	what rock and where?	02:33
GeneralAntilles	Yeah, sigh indeed.	02:33
Dantonic	I've heard that no matter when the pre-orders are placed, they will all be shipped together	02:33
GeneralAntilles	ds3, too many idiots whining for USB charging. . . .	02:34
ds3	GA: I just want a way to charge it in the car... I just found a high current car charger a few months ago	02:34
GeneralAntilles	ds3, for the Nokia?	02:34
ds3	so it'd be back to inverter + AC charger	02:34
ds3	GA: yes... I found a 12V charger that works as well as the AC charger	02:34
pupnik_	waiting for n900 until after christmas would really hurt, sorry Dantonic	02:35
GeneralAntilles	ds3, the box includes an adapter that'll adapt both of the old style Nokia chargers to microUSB.	02:35
Dantonic	ya thanks pupnik_ I appreciate that	02:35
GeneralAntilles	I doubt very much Amazon's estimate is much good.	02:35
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pupnik_	usb charging even if trickle is very nice - n900 comes with adapter to let you charge n900 with standard nokia charger also	02:36
Dantonic	I just really expected to have it by now... hopefully next week	02:36
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pupnik_	however it appears we had the choice of usb charging OR host mode, which is a bit of a pickle	02:37
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GeneralAntilles	Be nice if they'd put 2 USB ports on.	02:37
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GeneralAntilles	ds3, oh, also, the camera kicks ass.	02:39
ds3	we lost host mode?!	02:39
ds3	ggrrrrrrr	02:39
ds3	it may be rarely used but being able to get to a CDROM or a thumbdrive in those rare occasions is nice	02:40
GAN900	Well, we lost OTG	02:40
GAN900	Host mode may still be an option.	02:40
ds3	for us 800 users, we never had OTG	02:40
ds3	esp. since the mode pin wasn't brought out	02:41
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pupnik_	aha ty for the clarification	02:42
pupnik_	playing openarena / quake3 with accelerometers is not something to let a drunk person do with your n900	02:43
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pupnik_	i found it slightly dizzying sober	02:43
GAN900	ds3, OTG worked here.	02:45
GAN900	ds3, I bought one of the adaptors from jolouis.	02:45
GAN900	pupnik_, sensitivity and mouselook really need work.	02:46
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pupnik_	it is surprisingly workable	02:47
pupnik_	and fun	02:47
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wiretapped	does the n900 have a compass?	02:48
* wiretapped just read some conflicting answers on that		02:48
GeneralAntilles	No	02:49
GeneralAntilles	People on the internet are just idiots.	02:49
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wiretapped	There is a comment at http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/discussions/board/message?board.id=smartphones&message.id=163007 about a video where "a Nokia representative mentions a digital compass in N900"	02:50
wiretapped	but the video has been removed by the user who posted it	02:50
wiretapped	but you're sure?	02:50
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type_t	hola	02:54
wiretapped	i mean, you probably didn't think your n800 had an fm radio ;)	02:55
javispedro	there's no digital compass.	02:55
Shapeshifter	javispedro: can software fix that? xD (joking)	02:55
Shapeshifter	I'm infected by the forum level of questions	02:56
javispedro	no, but brainwashing can	02:56
Shapeshifter	ahhh right	02:56
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type_t	may be a sun dial might help..	02:56
Shapeshifter	you can put the n900 in a bowl with water and it will adjust pointing north	02:57
wiretapped	is there an analog compass? =p	02:57
GeneralAntilles	wiretapped, it's not anywhere apparent.	02:57
Shapeshifter	you can use the n900 though to call someone to ask them where north is.	02:58
Shapeshifter	hope that is a useful workaround.	02:58
type_t	but we can think of code to get it to strap a GPS position and find its direction of travel.	02:58
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pwnguin	as long as you only turn with a radius of 10 meters	02:59
DrIDK	How Can I install qt4-devel and play with it ? on maemo sdk freemantle ?	03:00
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type_t	what type of compression packed is qt4 .deb ?	03:11
GeneralAntilles	Compression?	03:11
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javispedro	type_t: gzip, but I guess that doesn't answer your question.	03:13
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type_t	ha ok i see you you know .. i unpack .deb packages with 7zipmanager on windows and i get tar after first unpack control.tar and data.tar so ..	03:15
javispedro	why are you doing that?	03:15
ali1234	type_t: the files that get installed in the fs are in data.tar	03:16
ali1234	which is not compressed, it's a tar file	03:17
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RXrenesis8	1. Look at your watch; is it before or after noon?	03:22
RXrenesis8	2. if you answered "before" the sun is over the eastern sky, if you answered "after, the sun is over the western sky.	03:23
RXrenesis8	3. ^ compass	03:23
ali1234	what if its cloudy.............	03:23
ali1234	or exactly noon?	03:23
RXrenesis8	you should not be outside when it is cloudy, people get UV burns from that. and everyone knows that from 12:00 02:00 is siesta time	03:24
RXrenesis8	PROBLEMS SOVED OKAY?!	03:24
ds3	apparently the vikies had a special stone to solve teh cloudy case	03:25
ali1234	what if its night time?	03:25
GeneralAntilles	blah blah blah military training	03:25
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ds3	polaris	03:25
ali1234	what if its night time and cloudy and you lost your watch and n900?	03:26
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ds3	up the stream w/o a paddle	03:27
Proteous	ali1234 was eaten by a grue	03:28
javispedro	knowing you, if you lost your n900, you're not outside at night time and cloudy.	03:36
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GeneralAntilles	SSH can usually confirm if it's in the building at least. ;)	03:38
javispedro	ouch. every time the clocks on CPUs speed up, engadget finds a way to slow their site.	03:38
GeneralAntilles	Indeed	03:38
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javispedro	man.	03:39
lcuk	microsoft has the same inverse performance function	03:39
javispedro	if it it brings my desktop to a halt.	03:39
ds3	Firefox!	03:39
javispedro	I can't even begin to imagine how it'll perform in _any_ embedded device.	03:39
jaem	good morning	03:39
ds3	you got it all wrong... an embedded device is a pallet sized device that us embedded into the ground	03:40
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ds3	;)	03:40
GeneralAntilles	javispedro, it works OKish on the N900.	03:40
GeneralAntilles	Fine once it's loaded, anyway.	03:40
jaem	did you folks see this? http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=NzcxNQ	03:41
javispedro	same as my desktop, but there's a quite noticeable pause where everything hangs for 10-15 seconds	03:41
jaem	also, http://www.bada.com/	03:41
javispedro	while loading.	03:41
jaem	looks interesting	03:41
GeneralAntilles	jaem, it's Samsung.	03:41
jaem	GeneralAntilles, yes, your point?	03:41
GeneralAntilles	They've got no text padding on the left on MicroB.	03:42
GeneralAntilles	jaem, they're a LiMo backer.	03:42
jaem	GeneralAntilles, ah	03:42
GeneralAntilles	LiMo is evil	03:42
jaem	they're calling this an "open mobile platform"... I take it it's not as open as they'd like to make it sound?	03:42
javispedro	ah, and Nokia is even going to sponsor yet another engadget show!	03:43
GAN900	jaem, who the hell knows.	03:43
GAN900	There's no real info available.	03:43
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GAN900	javispedro, it's like a beaten spouse.	03:44
GAN900	They just keep going back for more.	03:44
GAN900	Hell, they're just entrenching Engadget more since now if they changed their tune they'd be "sellouts".	03:45
javispedro	basically.	03:45
* GAN900 is excited about Barcelona.		03:45
javispedro	I don't know what to expect...	03:46
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ds3	open mobile platform? isn't that basically a peice of plywood on a snow slope?	03:47
jaem	ds3, that's a sled	03:47
jaem	easy to confuse	03:47
jaem	and no, not SLED	03:47
ds3	surely... it is open, mobile, and a platform :D	03:47
ds3	did you not just make such claims?	03:48
jaem	ds3, find me a sled that I can get a root shell on, and I might be interested	03:48
microlith	also, engadget's new layout burns the eyes	03:48
ds3	nothing stopping you from hollowing out a burl and putting it on there	03:48
jaem	ds3, -grin-	03:49
pupnik_	N900 multitasking is fantastic - 12 windows, one a paused sdl game, no system load	03:49
jaem	pupnik_, I know :D	03:49
jaem	it's great	03:49
* microlith shakes a tiny fist at Nokia		03:50
VDVsx	GAN900, Limo is a deal breaker, everybody knows that :P	03:50
pupnik_	this zeemote library by mr harbaum is great - we need a hack to control x pointer with zeemote	03:50
jaem	is the zeemote a specific product?	03:51
pupnik_	control N900 for presentations and games	03:51
jaem	or just the name of the driver?	03:51
pupnik_	yes, cheap bt controller	03:51
jaem	ah, neat	03:51
jaem	how cheap?	03:51
pupnik_	great and very unobtrusive	03:51
pupnik_	12-18 eu here	03:51
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pupnik_	but where is no joystick kernel module so maybe we could cheat and pretend it is a wacom pad	03:52
pupnik_	?	03:52
javispedro	this is something we need to agree on someday	03:53
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pupnik_	brainstorm on t.m.o?	03:53
javispedro	some common joystick interface -- of course the usual linux one would be preferable, but dunno.	03:53
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pupnik_	javis can you send me drnoksnes with zeemote support ?	03:53
pupnik_	@ javispedro	03:53
pupnik_	have no way to test real ergonomics	03:54
javispedro	pupnik_: can you build drnoksnes itself?	03:54
pupnik_	sure	03:55
javispedro	pupnik_: then get https://garage.maemo.org/tracker/download.php/1014/3791/4618/633/drnoksnes_zeemote.patch	03:55
pupnik_	just not setup	03:55
javispedro	if you want me to build you'll need to ping me tomorrow -- too asleep now.	03:55
pupnik_	maybe it takes me a week before compiles work	03:55
pupnik_	k	03:55
pupnik_	i get going	03:55
pupnik_	ty	03:56
pupnik_	i am still kind of in awe at n900	03:56
javispedro	your reports about it being usable for gaming are comforting, truly.	03:57
pupnik_	heh	03:57
* CoreFusion- realized that he has to get a wiimote before N900 arrives...		03:57
GAN900	VDVsx, drink!	03:57
VDVsx	glup!	03:58
* javispedro remembers he needs to poke tmo about the 3d drivers and make attila drink		03:58
pupnik_	i would feel silly bringing a wiimote with the N900 - zeemote fits one hand, in pocket	03:58
javispedro	agreed pupnik_	03:58
GAN900	javispedro, hopefully not lots of riotus Maemo people if the N900 doesn't ship in time. ;)	03:58
CoreFusion-	zeemote?	03:58
javispedro	GAN900: riots are inevitable at this point ;)	03:59
pupnik_	yeah just got zeemote paired with n900 - it looks great	03:59
GAN900	pupnik_, friend of mine plays emus on the bus with Wiimote in one hand and N800 in the other.	03:59
pupnik_	will get dosbox zeemote jozstick FOR SURE	03:59
javispedro	that's why we need to agree on something.	03:59
javispedro	libzeemote requires libhildon	03:59
javispedro	adding on drnoksnes ... ok	04:00
javispedro	adding on every other SDL app ... :(	04:00
pupnik_	yep	04:00
pupnik_	quim sees it	04:00
pupnik_	so brainstorm i think	04:00
CoreFusion-	Nah, I'd rather get Wiimote	04:00
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javispedro	pupnik_: ta!	04:01
javispedro	I might even fill a candidate solution for that bstorm item...	04:01
jaem	lol @ http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/11/stabbing_people.html	04:01
pupnik_	k will try to get drnok and dosbox built first	04:02
javispedro	np	04:02
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CoreFusion-	jaem: wtf?	04:05
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ali1234	heh, i forgot how annoying autocomplete and autocaps are	04:06
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BBNS	mmmm shipping madness!	04:35
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pupnik_	if you want to see a sdl game done right, check out "Ur-Quan Masters" UQM	04:45
pupnik_	upper left click paises game and returns to app overview	04:46
pupnik_	pauses	04:46
jaem	does anyone have any experience with using minigpsd's advanced features on the N810?	04:46
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jaem	specifically, I'm wondering how difficult it is to serve up GPS info to an external host over Wifi/BT	04:47
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lcuk	pupnik_, dashboard	04:50
pupnik_	ah ty	04:50
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pupnik_	zeesteroids isnt a bad test either	05:14
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* GeneralAntilles stabs Perl to death.		05:23
GeneralAntilles	Installing Perl dependencies makes me want to kill myself.	05:23
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mzz	heh, I don't normally feel that strongly about it	05:25
GeneralAntilles	One stupid little mobi2html script is sucking my lifeblood away.	05:25
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pupnik_	i know dep tree mudbog GeneralAntilles	05:28
pupnik_	very well	05:28
pupnik_	days on end	05:28
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pupnik_	PID PPID USER STAT RSS %MEM %CPU COMMAND	06:40
pupnik_	715 1 pulse S < 3552 1.4 25.4 /usr/bin/pulseaudio --system --high-priority	06:40
pupnik_	mp3 playback	06:40
pupnik_	i bet we can improve on that	06:41
pupnik_	e.g. only activate eq at high volume	06:41
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ShadowJK	flash is pretty terrible, it pegs my Q9550 CPU at 100% and then it starts skipping video :)	07:46
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pupnik_	been chatting on n900, occasional surfing, and frequent mp3 playback for 10 hours	07:57
pupnik_	been chatting on n900, occasional surfing, and frequent mp3 playback for 10 hours on one charge	07:57
pupnik_	there	07:57
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pupnik_	just hookung up charger because i dont want to drain to warning point	07:58
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microlith	pupnik_: not bad for heavy activity	08:04
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pupnik_	not heavi - xterm leaves cpu at idle	08:05
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pupnik_	only drains really wifi and screen	08:05
pupnik_	continuous surfing of evil sites maybe 4 hours	08:06
pupnik_	5.	08:06
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microlith	pupnik_: oh, that's nice	08:35
* microlith shakes a tiny fist at Nokia		08:35
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RST38h	<yawn>	09:16
RST38h	EHLO ALL	09:16
qwerty12	Grr, you just made me yawn. Morning, RST38h	09:17
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RST38h	The military's suicide rate among active-duty soldiers was about 20 per 100,000, nearly double the national U.S. rate of 11.1 suicides per 100,000 people, as reported by CDCP	10:15
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genewitch	anyone selling an n900?	10:16
genewitch	:-)	10:16
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genewitch	i can pre-order one from amazon for $479 after rebates, but i don't need the unlocked one i don't think	10:18
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`0660_	:P	10:24
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RXrenesis8	unlocked will be cheaper over time	10:27
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pekuja	might be, but you still need to pay for service separately	10:38
genewitch	RXrenesis8: yeah but i don't need one and i'm willing to spend the $580 now	10:38
genewitch	tmobile is the only us carrier with 3g	10:39
genewitch	for it	10:39
genewitch	so why bother getting an unlocked one	10:39
pekuja	to stick it to the man?	10:39
genewitch	i live in a huge t-mobile market	10:39
genewitch	oh	10:39
genewitch	yeah	10:39
genewitch	i mean for me personally.	10:40
pekuja	;-)	10:40
bigbrovar	genewitch: am tempted to go with amazon too for that price, my current pre-order is with Newegg, but the $80+ extra bucks can be used for a 16gb card + bluetooth headset	10:40
genewitch	i can see a huge draw for it over an iphone in non-3g markets	10:40
bigbrovar	although i get to loose my standing in the line	10:40
genewitch	i've read reports that amazon won't ship it till after christmas	10:40
genewitch	I sorta wanted one, you know, now	10:40
genewitch	and froogle had a bunch a couple of weeks ago, now they're all pre-orders	10:41
pekuja	how much is a SIM-locked N900 in the US?	10:41
genewitch	no idea, that's what i am trying to find out	10:41
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bigbrovar	genewitch: well I think they are just being over permissmistic. ( or I hope )	10:41
pekuja	does anyone carry it?	10:41
genewitch	I know there are people who had the locked ones for sale 2 weeks ago	10:41
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genewitch	pekuja: only online that i've found	10:42
pekuja	I think carriers might be shying away from it because of the VoIP capabilities	10:42
genewitch	if i buy it with my paypal card i save a percent	10:42
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genewitch	pekuja: has nothing to do with the carriers, it's the radio	10:42
pekuja	the radio?	10:43
genewitch	the radio is incompatible with every US carrier except T-Mobile, and that's just a fluke, T-Mobile happened to buy that spectrum for 4+ billion dollars	10:43
genewitch	yeah	10:43
pekuja	ah I see	10:43
pekuja	so T-Mobile is the only carrier you could even use it on?	10:43
genewitch	at&t	10:43
genewitch	at 2G speeds	10:43
genewitch	T-Mobile for 3G	10:43
pekuja	well yeah	10:44
genewitch	in the US that's it	10:44
pekuja	what's the maximum for 2G?	10:44
genewitch	under 200kbit	10:44
pekuja	yeah	10:44
genewitch	n900's max 3g speed is 10.1 mbit	10:44
genewitch	at least on tmobile's service	10:44
pekuja	so there are no SIM-locked N900's available in the US	10:45
genewitch	pekuja: not in stores, only online	10:45
genewitch	i've been asking for weeks, everyone looks it up and says no	10:45
pekuja	so who has it online?	10:45
pekuja	I'm looking at T-Mobile's site and they don't have it	10:45
genewitch	I don't know, i can't remember the sites i saw it on	10:45
genewitch	the sites i saw it on weren't cellular providers, they were like cellphone stores	10:45
pekuja	ok	10:46
pekuja	and they sell SIM-locked phones too?	10:46
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genewitch	yeah they sold blackberries and androids and whatever	10:48
pekuja	ok	10:48
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pekuja	the market is different there I guess.	10:48
pekuja	we have a very different market here in Finland probably because selling a phone with a contract was illegal for a long time	10:49
genewitch	ah	10:49
genewitch	we can do stuff without contracts here	10:49
genewitch	you just have to pay full price	10:49
pekuja	yeah	10:49
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pekuja	but I mean the culture is different	10:50
genewitch	and verizon wants you to pay a deposit anyhow	10:50
pekuja	people are more willing to pay full price	10:50
genewitch	well in the US it's more like people with good credit can get away with cheap phones and contracts	10:51
pekuja	and most of the contract deals aren't such where you are forced to pay for an expensive contract you don't need	10:51
genewitch	yeah	10:51
genewitch	the n900 is gunna cost me $70 a month to use	10:51
genewitch	i shouldn't ever go over my minutes cause i have voip lines coming out of every orifice	10:52
pekuja	even the iPhone you can get for around 20 euros a month with a two year contract	10:52
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genewitch	that's dirt cheap	10:52
pekuja	yeah	10:53
genewitch	that's also $70 here	10:53
pekuja	you basically just pay for the phone, and the contract is cheap	10:53
genewitch	wait, though that might be the same	10:53
pekuja	20 euros is around $30	10:53
genewitch	nah it'd be 47 euros	10:53
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genewitch	do the iphones get 3g speed and unlimited data usage?	10:54
pekuja	no, but you can upgrade your contract to get that	10:54
genewitch	cause that's the perk for iphones in the USA. they're one of the few phones that both get unlimited bandwidth and can use more than the carriers cap you at	10:54
genewitch	the other one is android, but that's $10 more a month	10:54
pekuja	you can get an unlimited data plan at 384kbps for about 10 euros a month	10:55
genewitch	that's really slow though	10:55
genewitch	iphones here get 800-1200kbits	10:55
pekuja	for 1M it's 20 euros a month	10:55
aquatix	morning all	10:55
genewitch	that's cool	10:55
genewitch	pekuja: how much does a locked n900 cost where you are?	10:56
pekuja	I don't think they sell locked ones here	10:56
genewitch	well whatever, the standard n900	10:56
genewitch	how much does it cost	10:56
pekuja	I think even the ones from carriers are unlocked	10:56
pekuja	it's about 600 euros	10:56
genewitch	ouuuch	10:56
genewitch	that's double what i am going to pay	10:57
pekuja	yeah, that's close to $900	10:57
aquatix	hm, here in the Netherlands it's listed in online stores starting at 530	10:57
genewitch	530 euros is still a lot	10:57
aquatix	true	10:57
aquatix	but damn, it's some package :)	10:57
genewitch	i'm looking for less than 350 euros	10:57
pekuja	yeah I think the cheapest deals here are about 540 euros	10:57
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genewitch	grrrrr	10:58
genewitch	i really want one, i guess i'll have to just wait and use my n800 for EVERYTHING until i get it.	10:58
pekuja	480 usd on Amazon, right?	10:58
aquatix	for less than 350 EUR, you might better look at an android phone or an n8x0 tablet	10:58
aquatix	depending on what you want	10:58
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genewitch	pekuja: $520 with $50 mail in rebate	10:58
pekuja	ok, so $470	10:59
genewitch	yeah thereabouts	10:59
pekuja	genewitch: do you have to pay taxes on top of that or is it tax-free?	10:59
genewitch	well it depends. technically you have to pay taxes but amazon won't charge them.	10:59
pekuja	an important thing to notice when comparing European and US prices is that European prices usually include taxes	10:59
pekuja	the Amazon deal is still really good though	11:00
genewitch	pekuja: in general, buying stuff online is tax free at the point of sale. you're supposed to claim the tax at the end of the year, but no one does.	11:00
pekuja	ah, I see	11:00
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pekuja	aquatix: are N810's still available?	11:01
genewitch	not in stores	11:01
genewitch	on ebay, yes	11:01
pekuja	yeah	11:01
genewitch	for over $300, usually	11:01
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pekuja	I remember looking at them a while back... they were pretty cheap before they stopped selling them	11:01
genewitch	i guess you can use them in Baltimore on a 4G network	11:01
pekuja	should had bought one :-P	11:01
genewitch	i'm not going to bother pre-ordering the phone	11:03
genewitch	i'll just wait till it comes out and everyone has one that wants one then i'll buy one. so maybe have one in january?	11:04
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genewitch	i had my hopes up to get it next week but i guess that's a ruined dream :'(	11:04
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pekuja	:-/	11:04
genewitch	anyhow it's late here so i am going to go to sleep	11:04
pekuja	good night	11:04
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aquatix	genewitch: nn	11:05
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dbk	hello	12:44
*** dbk is now known as mtnman		12:44
mtnman	hello	12:46
mtnman	anybody home?	12:49
sijk	maybe	12:51
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mtnman	maybe not?	12:52
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mtnman	hello	12:57
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range	.oO ( hello ... echo ... )	13:05
mtnman	elho	13:05
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lardman	hey chaps	13:57
Stskeeps	heya	13:57
lbt	o/ lardman	13:57
lardman	I've got a curious problem, am trying to pass a string from my dialog constructor fn to the dialog callback handler, but it vanishes en-route	13:57
lardman	how are things lbt ?	13:57
lbt	busy :)	13:58
lbt	which is good	13:58
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lardman	good good :)	13:59
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lbt	you?	14:00
lardman	day job busy, but it's the weekend so now am debugging mbarcode busy :)	14:00
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lardman	~curse Nautilus for still having rubbish sftp:// support	14:04
infobot	May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, Nautilus for still having rubbish sftp:// support !	14:04
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lardman	hmm, very odd, I've no clue why my string in vanishing	14:05
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lardman	hmm, I wonder if it's being freed somewhere else... The wonders of threading	14:07
RST38h	do you have any reasons to use dynamic memory allocation?	14:08
RST38h	as opposed to just declaring that data on top?	14:08
lardman	Yeah, I can't know what the barcode will contain	14:08
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RST38h	but does it have a limited length?	14:09
lardman	probably not	14:09
lardman	and in fact I am using a char array that the decoder passes me	14:09
RST38h	oh...	14:09
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lardman	also the fact that the lookups may take a while, means that the threads need to have a copy of the data, etc	14:09
RST38h	messy,	14:10
lardman	yeah	14:10
lardman	nice, that's sorted it	14:10
lardman	school boy error - had to move from a blocking dialog to a async one, and forgot where the string was being freed	14:11
* RST38h wonders if the lemmings are gonna leave tmo once they all get their n900s		14:12
* lardman has nearly given up looking there		14:12
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* lardman goes back to pondering how to not have to handle every payload type		14:14
lardman	has anyone else had troubles with .desktop files from Fremantle not working on Diablo?	14:19
lardman	or service files for that matter?	14:19
* RST38h has not tried yet		14:21
RST38h	But I am using the same files without changes	14:21
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lardman	hmm, perhaps it's something in the Fremantle one too then, not checked that yet	14:22
lardman	do you know about svn?	14:22
RST38h	a bit, not a lot	14:22
lardman	svn: Commit failed (details follow):	14:22
lardman	svn: File or directory 'debian/changelog' is out of date; try updating	14:23
lardman	svn: The version resource does not correspond to the resource within the transaction. Either the requested version resource is out of date (needs to be updated), or the requested version resource is newer than the transaction root (restart the commit).	14:23
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lardman	I've updated the file from outside the tree, bad I know	14:23
lardman	can I force it to update?	14:23
lardman	commit even	14:23
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RST38h	ah I know this one	14:23
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RST38h	the "right" way to fix this is to update your tree fro the repository	14:24
lardman	yeah, but that's out of date now	14:24
RST38h	so that whatever changes were made to that file by someone else will be merged into your local copy	14:24
RST38h	then you can commit	14:24
RST38h	ok, then do this	14:25
lardman	I made the changes from a different checkout actually	14:25
RST38h	Move your file away. Update. Copy your file back. Commit.	14:25
lardman	damn	14:25
lardman	ah well	14:25
RST38h	that will fix it	14:25
RST38h	if you are absolutely sure you are not gonna keep any changes fro the svn copy	14:26
lardman	hmm, actually if you do svn update it flags the file and you can select "mf" to choose your file as the correct one	14:27
lardman	thanks for the pointer	14:27
lardman	anyway fixed now, I hope ;)	14:28
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lardman	strange how svn update doesn't overwrite new changes to files	14:28
lardman	my misunderstanding of how it works	14:28
RST38h	hmm...a chemist reports that the famous Anarchist's Cookbook is full of wrong recipes =)	14:29
lardman	lol	14:29
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RST38h	Almost like someone saving himself time tracking all the idiots down, so that he could just regularly go over hospital records in search of characteristic injuries =)	14:30
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lardman	:)	14:31
lardman	In .desktop files, what does Version refer to? I seem to remember seeing this on the ml in a thread about whether it's the app version or the file format	14:32
RST38h	that is for control files I think. Verifying	14:32
RST38h	Ok, in .desktop file, that is YOUR app version	14:33
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lardman	really?	14:33
lardman	oh ok	14:33
RST38h	In control file, there is this: Standards-Version: 3.6.1	14:33
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lardman	perhaps that's why it doesn't work	14:33
RST38h	THAT is the control file version	14:33
lardman	ok cool	14:33
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mord	been comparing diablo and 0.16 and for some reason fennec simply flies on 0.16	14:38
mord	:)	14:38
mord	(n810)	14:38
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mord	erm. wrong channel, this. so sorry	14:39
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VDVsx	damn, is -devel still down or I broke something ? :)	15:00
KMFDM	VDVsx, i've been unable to connect to -devel	15:01
KMFDM	for 3 weeks with my phone	15:01
KMFDM	strangely my pc can load the file my phone claims it can't load perfectly fine	15:02
RST38h	wrong app manager config?	15:02
KMFDM	RST38h, the config is correct. I checked it several times and also tried completely re-entering it	15:02
KMFDM	testing also doesn't work	15:02
VDVsx	RST38h, humm, I got this: W: Failed to fetch http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/dists/fremantle/Release No Hash entry in Release file /var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_extras-devel_dists_fremantle_Release	15:02
VDVsx	KMFDM, -testing works here	15:03
VDVsx	-extras too	15:03
KMFDM	-extras works for me	15:03
RST38h	ah	15:03
KMFDM	but -devel and -testing don't	15:03
RST38h	Somebody explained why -devel gets this problem a whle ago	15:03
RST38h	Stskeeps, I think	15:04
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Stskeeps	no, jeremiah?	15:04
RST38h	maybe....	15:04
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RST38h	it is a problem with the repository indeed	15:04
VDVsx	bahh	15:05
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VDVsx	wow 75p from the Maemo long weekend .. and counting :)	15:07
VDVsx	mini-summit :D	15:07
lcuk	finnish winter holiday	15:08
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lcuk	mornin VDVsx	15:09
VDVsx	lcuk, hhihi	15:09
VDVsx	lcuk, morning lcuk	15:09
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lbt	Don't bother handling malloc returns null, just quit ... http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.audio.jackit/19998	15:21
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pupnik	N900 battery is fine for all-day use if you dont keep a cpu hog running	16:47
pupnik	imo	16:47
javispedro	pupnik: did you try a stress test with 100% cpu usage?	16:48
pupnik	nope	16:49
sgbirch	Jaffa: I have always been confused by Forum Nokia, not to mention maemo version numbers/names	16:49
sgbirch	Jaffa: But I do so love Nokia's Linux products	16:50
pupnik	javispedro: now that i ave external charger i may keep a spare battery with me if i am gone all day	16:50
javispedro	yeah... sigh.	16:50
pupnik	fastest discharge i had was about 5 hours	16:51
javispedro	I will try some powersaving settings ... like maxxing cpufreq at 330 Mhz or the like	16:51
pupnik	you might be able to get it down to three :)	16:52
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javispedro	s/maxxing/capping	16:52
sgbirch	pupnik: While I wait for th n900 I am using an HP6509 (wm5), 5 hours is a dream on that	16:52
javispedro	3 hours is what I was told.	16:52
pupnik	oh just wlan no cell sgbirch	16:52
javispedro	with full stress testing	16:53
pupnik	just screen wlan and cpu	16:53
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sgbirch	javispedro: 3 hours with everything turned on?	16:53
pupnik	meh i am interested in my own use profile. and N900 handles xterm/screen at idle speed	16:53
javispedro	sgbirch: or at least 100% cpu usage	16:54
pupnik	three sounds right	16:54
pupnik	those 10 hours i had a paused sdl game using no cpu	16:54
javispedro	and thus the reason I'll probably underclock it.	16:54
sgbirch	javispedro: that isnt bad .. 3 with the processor spinning	16:55
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javispedro	pupnik: sdl apps paused tick a 10Hz clock	16:55
javispedro	which drains battery	16:55
pupnik	ah	16:55
sgbirch	javispedro: I have been very impressed with my n810, it sips power	16:55
javispedro	10Hz or 10KHz, I don't remember ;P	16:55
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pupnik	javispedro - it is real cool that pause feature - know how it is done?	16:56
pupnik	hopefully 10 hz	16:56
pupnik	uqm source should have it	16:56
javispedro	pupnik: no, sdl has no pause feature .. but SDL_WaitEvent does tick	16:57
javispedro	so the only way to pause sanely is block on d-bus or the like	16:57
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pupnik	i believe unix has SIGSUSP ?	16:58
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javispedro	yeah	16:59
javispedro	but it's hard to SIGCONT with a keypress then	16:59
javispedro	unless you have a daemon doing that	16:59
javispedro	iirc it was requested sometime to send SIGSUSP to processes by system	16:59
javispedro	when idle.	16:59
pupnik	well the windowmanager process stll runs	16:59
pupnik	that should be susp and cont ing, no?	17:00
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javispedro	it could do that, as I was saying, it was requested	17:00
pupnik	cool	17:01
javispedro	but I don't even remember the bug # ...	17:01
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pupnik	however uqm does it is good enuf	17:01
sgbirch	The wait for the n900 is killing me ..	17:02
javispedro	so now someone just affirmed Mario Kart runs at 40fps in the G1	17:03
javispedro	even though tit sucks (less than 10fps) on all youtube videos	17:03
lcuk	what does it run at on the n900	17:03
javispedro	probably just a bit better than n810 -- 20fps or the like	17:03
* javispedro sighs		17:03
javispedro	I wonder where could I find a G1 owner around there ...	17:04
javispedro	s/there/here	17:06
pupnik	what is g1? android?	17:06
pupnik	n900? 20 maybe	17:07
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javispedro	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQkAKKRUFbg	17:07
javispedro	i don't what's the frameskip on that	17:08
javispedro	but my n810 plays it a bit faster than that _without_ frameskip	17:08
pupnik	the problems with n900 are a hardware fault (speaker response) fixed in software eq	17:08
pupnik	whick takes 15-25 percent cpu	17:08
javispedro	so, horrible.	17:09
pupnik	and no scaled blits costing another 15@percent or more	17:09
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javispedro	pupnik: are you sure it's eq and not resampling?	17:09
pupnik	both together	17:09
javispedro	make drnok output at 44100 or 48000 and measure	17:09
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pupnik	maybe we could temp disable expensive pulseaudio and cheaply stream to dac	17:09
javispedro	or go back to using dsp for audio	17:10
pupnik	or just the app bypass it	17:10
javispedro	i don't know who decided against that...	17:10
javispedro	bypassing pulseaudio -- here by dragons	17:10
pupnik	we just must limit the volume	17:10
javispedro	s/by/be	17:10
pupnik	heh	17:10
javispedro	probably uses the ALSA device 100% of the time	17:10
javispedro	not to mention who knows what's the ALSA interface this time.	17:11
javispedro	but iirc I read it is more sane than n810 since they're not using dsp anymore	17:11
pupnik	k	17:11
pupnik	internal rate IS 48k	17:12
pupnik	pulse	17:12
pupnik	see /etc/pulse*	17:12
javispedro	idonthaveann900 ;)	17:13
javispedro	well, and how's cpu usage at 48kHz?	17:13
felipec	I'm not sure if it makes sens to bypass pulseaudio	17:15
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pupnik	felipec: we have an audio subsystem consuming 15-25 percent cpu	17:21
felipec	pupnik: when you use speakers	17:22
pupnik	i dont mind becoming unpopular to make this an issue	17:22
pupnik	yes	17:22
SpeedEvil	pulseaudio is insanity.	17:22
SpeedEvil	At least resamplingwise.	17:22
felipec	pupnik: which are crappy and will fry if you use then 100% all the time	17:22
pupnik	so allow high perf apps to play at low volume	17:23
pupnik	without bottleneck	17:23
SpeedEvil	A patch that adjusts the DAC frequency if there is no sound playing would be good.	17:23
pupnik	two modes	17:23
pupnik	no	17:23
SpeedEvil	So if there isn't sound playing, and a sound source starts at 48KHz - it clocks the DAC to 48KHz	17:24
javispedro	no, I can easily make the emu render at 48kHz and seems that doesn't cause cpu usage to drop	17:24
felipec	pupnik: you can do that by issuing the ALSA ioctls I guess	17:24
pupnik	one mode where app generates 48khz and disablesm resampling and eq	17:24
SpeedEvil	Sample format conversion? though that should not sanely do that.	17:24
felipec	pupnik: if you send 48khz there's no resampling	17:25
javispedro	it's more easy for the emu to do conversion -- think it knows about the spc700 it is emulating.	17:25
felipec	and you can manually disable the equalizer I think	17:25
javispedro	and not everything is sampled sound at that level.	17:25
pupnik	felipec: that would be the app level solution!	17:26
javispedro	if you can manually disable eq, wouldn't speakers fry as said?	17:26
SpeedEvil	Generally not, you'll worst-case get distortion.	17:27
pupnik	lower volume	17:27
felipec	javispedro: that's not the equalizer, that's x-prot, different filter	17:27
Flandry	"generally not"	17:27
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pupnik	limit emulator voloume to 50 percent for all i care :)	17:27
javispedro	so it's x-prot the one pupnik finds using CPU -- not eq	17:28
javispedro	cause why would eq be enabled then	17:28
pupnik	ahh a googlable term surfaces! :)	17:28
toggles_w	hmm... according to this, http://www.logicbuy.com/deals/newegg-black-friday-deals-and-coupons/16737.aspx that would make the n900 $504-ish, plus $50 rebated, down to $450?	17:28
pupnik	wow	17:29
SpeedEvil	toggles_w: Interesting.	17:29
SpeedEvil	toggles_w: that's ~ what I paid in the UK after all the rebates	17:29
toggles_w	i wonder if the 10% off will negate the rebate though...	17:29
SpeedEvil	(though they have not as of yet taken any payment)	17:29
toggles_w	still, if amazon hasn't shipped mine, i might cancel and try the newegg deal ;-)	17:30
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SpeedEvil	Order both, ebay one.	17:30
toggles_w	LOL	17:30
felipec	pupnik: how big are the buffers you are pushing to pulse	17:30
_berto_	guys, has anyone tried to change numeric values in the about:config window in the n900 ?	17:31
pupnik	ask javispedro felipec	17:32
javispedro	felipec: small	17:32
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javispedro	around 512 2*16 bit samples.	17:33
felipec	javispedro: well, the bigger the buffers, the better the performance	17:33
javispedro	that was not the case with esd -- empirically tested.	17:33
javispedro	probably because of dsp	17:34
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javispedro	which limited buffer size to something around PAGE_SIZE	17:34
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javispedro	pupnik: so try bigger buffer sizes (arg "-b 512", "-b 1024", etc.)	17:34
VDVsx	does anyone knows what is the default lib used in maemo5 to parse conf files (ini-like) ?	17:35
javispedro	VDVsx: glib has some of that stuff	17:35
pupnik	and my app will pad-out samples to 48k	17:35
javispedro	VDVsx: GKeyFile	17:35
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felipec	javispedro: the problem is the locking required between pulse threads and pushing buffers around	17:36
VDVsx	javispedro, do you know if it preserves the comments in the files ?	17:36
javispedro	VDVsx: no, I never tried it.. :P	17:36
felipec	javispedro: last time I tried 128k worked fine	17:37
_berto_	can anyone try to change any numeric value in about:config ?	17:37
javispedro	pupnik: you could make a plot with buffer size vs pa cpu usage ;)	17:37
VDVsx	javispedro, yes it preserves, thanks ;)	17:38
pupnik	i cant fix these problems	17:39
javispedro	note though that higher buffer sizes will distort -- that's something I'm considering to workaround	17:39
pupnik	i tried	17:39
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VDVsx	_berto_, in the browser ?	17:39
_berto_	VDVsx: yes	17:39
_berto_	VDVsx: I can't change any numeric setting	17:39
VDVsx	_berto_, let me try here	17:40
_berto_	VDVsx: thanks	17:40
pupnik	javispedro: that distortion is a bug	17:40
javispedro	not a bug, but rather a // TODO ;)	17:40
pupnik	right	17:40
pupnik	or wontfix	17:40
javispedro	but the CPU usage measures should be good.	17:40
javispedro	if buffer size does help much an easy workaround is to just buffer in my app after rendering	17:41
javispedro	instead of sending every rendered buffer to pa	17:41
VDVsx	_berto_, confirmed (42-11)	17:42
_berto_	VDVsx: you mean you can't either? :)	17:42
pupnik	ahh	17:42
VDVsx	the dialog does nothing	17:42
_berto_	okay	17:42
_berto_	the funny thing is that i haven't seen anything in bugzilla	17:42
_berto_	but there are other bugs about the browser config	17:42
VDVsx	but I can change the booleans at least	17:42
_berto_	it can't be that no one noticed this before	17:42
_berto_	yes, and strings too	17:42
_berto_	i'll report it anyway	17:43
VDVsx	_berto_, yeah the dialog for ints is different	17:43
_berto_	yes	17:43
_berto_	VDVsx: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6270	17:48
povbot	Bug 6270: Can't modify numeric settings in about:config	17:48
_berto_	ok, reported, I'm leaving now	17:49
_berto_	see you	17:49
VDVsx	bye	17:49
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lopz	hi ;]	18:03
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RST38h	'The Apple store called and informed me that due to the computer having been used in a house where there was smoking, [the warranty has been voided] and they refuse to work on the machine "due to health risks of second hand smoke,"' wrote one customer	18:08
RST38h	Cute	18:09
javispedro	oh, hi RST38h	18:09
pekuja	second hand smoke from a laptop that has been used in a smoking household?	18:09
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mikhas	well, PCs from a smokers smell terrible	18:10
luke-jr	RST38h: sounds about right, at least as far as voiding the warranty	18:10
luke-jr	presumably they apply it equally, and don't honour warrantys if cat hairs are found eitehr	18:11
pekuja	smell is one thing, but second hand smoke?	18:11
mikhas	that one I dont know, sounds wrong to me.	18:11
mikhas	there are all kind of unhealthy things in a PC	18:11
luke-jr	yeah, but smoke/cat hair can damage it	18:12
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DocScrutinizer	actually I never seen a PC damaged by smoke	18:17
RST38h	luke: or just reserve the right to refuse servicing any computer with explanation "your pc is disgusting"	18:17
javispedro	there are horror stories all around the www about pcs literally "filled" with smoke or greas	18:18
DocScrutinizer	RST38h: XD	18:18
RST38h	yea, they look pretty bad on the inside, cheaper to throw away	18:18
javispedro	I can believe some conscious techie refuse working on it.	18:18
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mikhas	so the solution is to require the customer to clean up the computer, voiding the warranty while doing so =)	18:21
* RST38h figures what he is gonna do to "Droid and Android gaming irony" thread participants		18:22
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javispedro	please kill me :)	18:22
RST38h	javis: So far it looks like Kaa talking to Bandar-logs	18:23
Flandry	i haven't visited that one since yesterday	18:24
Flandry	i thought i was on Engadget	18:24
javispedro	I still think the "older" one was worse.	18:24
javispedro	the one where someone registered and shown us he had "13 emulators" avail for N900.	18:24
javispedro	that's even before rst pushed his apps to -stable	18:25
alterego	Is there somethig wrong with extras devel?	18:25
RST38h	Ah, Wiki is sometimes SO true: "Their foolish and chattering ways are illustrated by their slogan: We are great. We are free. We are wonderful. We are the most wonderful people in all the jungle! We all say so, and so it must be true.. Bandar-log communicate almost entirely through the repetition of other animals' speech."	18:25
Flandry	it's hosted on maemo servers...	18:25
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javispedro	though the whole Java argument is useless on that thread, since from what I've understood by quickly analyizing some droid emus only sound has to go through Java.	18:29
javispedro	(by quickly I mean may be inexact)	18:29
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RST38h	javis: But of course. Only it does not matter to them	18:29
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thux	many of here wonders should they buy iphone 3 g s or n900, which one has better hardware? price seems to be close	18:34
RST38h	3gs of course	18:34
javispedro	yes.	18:34
alterego	Yeah, iPhone, why even ask.	18:35
blimey3k	3GS if you want a phone phone	18:35
* alterego chuckles		18:35
* javispedro sighs		18:35
thux	ok good to know, i don't know specs of either one	18:35
alterego	Why don't you go to #iphone and ask their opinion	18:35
thux	is here #iphone channel?	18:36
RST38h	of course	18:36
* andre__ takes a look under his bed if he still has those huge blinking irony markers		18:36
RST38h	Just not on this server I guess	18:36
thux	seems so	18:36
javispedro	there's even a haskell-iphone channel :P	18:36
alterego	Heh	18:36
RST38h	andre: is there a rocket engine too?	18:37
thux	#iphone ##iphone Forwarding to another channel	18:37
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andre__	RST38h, I can't talk about this here in public, sorry	18:37
mikhas	clever guys, a hidden channel!	18:37
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RST38h	mikhas: hidden stuff must be mighty cool!	18:38
javispedro	just look at the topic	18:38
javispedro	:)	18:38
mikhas	=)	18:38
RST38h	"Instead of replacing the St. Louis Zoo's deceased polar bears with live ones, zoo officials put robots up in their place."	18:38
sp3000	as long as they support mauling, s'ok	18:39
RST38h	sp3000: the article says not YET.	18:39
sp3000	awww. feature regression.	18:39
javispedro	is it 2020 already? the world went mad and I didn't notice because I've gone mad already?	18:40
RST38h	Well, maybe the eyes light up, just like in the movies....	18:40
javispedro	and they shoot lasers	18:40
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RST38h	javis: Satan got hired by The Onion, and he is working on their news.	18:40
sp3000	that's still just a workaround	18:41
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RST38h	javis: No other news outlet hired him, all said he was too hmm... different	18:41
SpeedEvil	RST38h: pictures - http://www.theoland.com/media/bear_sculptures/GM_Bears/Squid_500sq.jpg	18:42
RST38h	SpeedEvil: Oh! An idol!	18:42
* lardman\|home wonders where the other XChat client is located		18:42
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lardman	ah, here it is	18:42
lbt	SpeedEvil: send it to Bruce Schneier	18:43
RST38h	SpeedEvil: http://community.livejournal.com/detskiy_dvor/ (all commentaries are in Russian, but you really do not need 'em)	18:44
javispedro	blackra1n, pwnage, redsn0w, ultrasn0w -- are they hacking a phone or a night club?	18:44
thux	seems that iphone only got 256mb ram, ain't n900 have more?	18:44
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Stskeeps	256mb ram, 768mb swap	18:44
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Flandry	you got to be kidding. Satan has been on Fox news for years	18:44
RST38h	Flandry: too dull for the Satan. I suspect that was Jesus.	18:45
Flandry	I'd like to think He'd do a better job, but maybe that's just me :P	18:45
RST38h	SpeedEvil: Actually, the best-of is here: http://community.livejournal.com/practical_chaos/923.html (it will save you some browsing)	18:45
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RST38h	Flandry: The key point is that whatever news Satan puts into print, come into reality. That is why Him working for The Onion is so scary =)	18:46
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thux	arm cortex a8 600mhz not bad what n900 got?	18:46
javispedro	same.	18:46
Flandry	ah, i saw that Twilgiht Zone episode too	18:46
suihkulokki	/last http	18:47
suihkulokki	garr	18:47
javispedro	I can't watch ONN videos!	18:48
javispedro	level 1 emergency -- time to mkfs /	18:48
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RST38h	Flandry: I think it was based either one someone's short story or on a retro urban legend	18:49
SpeedEvil	http://www.theonion.com/content/video/anonymous_philanthropist_donates	18:49
RST38h	yeeek	18:50
javispedro	SpeedEvil: that's exactly the video I'm trying to watch!!	18:50
javispedro	and I can't! I can't!	18:50
javispedro	damn Flash.	18:50
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* javispedro launches all the browsers on his system		18:50
Flandry	sure, but Twilght Zone is the cannonical source, even if retrospectively	18:51
RST38h	yea, guess so	18:51
* Flandry thinks it should be, anyway		18:51
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lardman	hmm, is Garage working for you chaps?	19:10
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RST38h	worked a few hours ago	19:11
lardman	worked 10min ago, but not now	19:11
RST38h	pupnik spoiled all the fun =(	19:11
RST38h	too serious	19:11
lardman	ah, just veeeerrrryyyy slow	19:12
RST38h	Bug #5300 got into internal bugzilla. Sweet	19:13
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5300 Support sending files via Bluetooth in file manager	19:13
javispedro	RST38h: actually, the fun is starting for me -- since the a320 is a console I tried.	19:15
javispedro	it was on par with N810 -- and he's saying it's full speed.	19:15
RST38h	javis: he does not understand what he is saying	19:16
RST38h	not worth arguing there, although trolling poor lemming all the way to the cliff may be fun	19:16
lardman	what's the a320?	19:17
lardman	large aircraft to me	19:17
javispedro	arm11, 500ish Mhz iirc.	19:17
lardman	pda?	19:17
javispedro	yeah	19:17
javispedro	console	19:17
javispedro	well I was wrong	19:18
lardman	Dingoo	19:18
javispedro	not arm11	19:18
RST38h	A Chinese console	19:18
javispedro	but MIPS	19:18
RST38h	Anything with MIPS will suck by definition	19:18
lardman	small screen too	19:18
RST38h	(I can explain why, but it is somewhat involved)	19:18
lardman	go on :)	19:18
RST38h	Well, MIPS instruction set has been made by academics, so even although it is RISC, it is incredibly inefficient	19:19
RST38h	For example, VGBA binary size hits 1MB on MIPS	19:19
lardman	they made the inefficient microcode?	19:19
RST38h	Also, the stack frames are huge	19:20
lardman	or poor design/instruction choice?	19:20
RST38h	No, they designed inefficient instruction set	19:20
lardman	ah ok	19:20
RST38h	That does not well express what people want to do	19:20
RST38h	It is a freaking university project, not a production design	19:20
lardman	:)	19:21
RST38h	So, on expensive workstations, these problems are offset by huge caches and fast memory	19:21
RST38h	But once you cut down the caches and use normal consumer grade 133MHz SDRAM (or mDDR), the performance goes straight to hell	19:22
lardman	so why was it adopted then?	19:22
RST38h	The design is free, it is cheap to produce, so lots of Chinese make and use it	19:22
RST38h	And for low performance uses, it works well enough. I have one of those Chinese systems on my desk	19:23
lardman	ok	19:23
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RST38h	ICNexus, MIPS chip, runs Linux, starts X11/XFCE on its little 640x460 screen	19:23
RST38h	Runs fine, has even gone Xine compiled for it, but waaaaay slow	19:23
RST38h	s/gone/got	19:23
RST38h	When comparing it to ARM instruction set, you can clearly see that the designers were fixing shortcomings of the MIPS design, and largely succeeded	19:24
javispedro	from what I read it doesn't run linux but a custom kernel, I though otherwise.	19:24
javispedro	which may explain why it reached high performance with such low specs	19:25
RST38h	javis: Doesn't matter, at the end it runs binary code, and does it slowly	19:25
lardman	hmm, how are these supposed to work?: http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/5.0-final/hildon/hildon-Additions-to-GTK+.html#HildonPortraitFlags	19:25
javispedro	conny discovered it.	19:25
javispedro	you may want to search for his -developers post	19:26
lardman	ok	19:26
RST38h	lardman: SUPPORT will tell wm that your window can be rotated	19:26
javispedro	iirc he made a wiki entry, but I don't remember where.	19:26
RST38h	REQUEST will tell wm that you do not suppor tlandscape at all	19:26
lardman	yeah, but from the wording it looks like I can only choose one or the other, not both	19:26
qwerty12	http://wiki.maemo.org/Using_Fremantle_Widgets#Portrait_Mode	19:26
RST38h	why choose both?	19:26
javispedro	qwerty12++ :)	19:26
lardman	well because my app will be able to support both	19:26
RST38h	semantically, choosing both makes no sense	19:27
RST38h	lardman: Both morientations? that is SUPPORT	19:27
javispedro	"That means that to get a rotated desktop all visible windows must have the HILDON_PORTRAIT_MODE_SUPPORT flag set to 1 and at least one of them must have the HILDON_PORTRAIT_MODE_REQUEST flag set to true."	19:27
lardman	RST38h: that's what I thought, but the wording indicates that that will stick it there	19:28
lardman	ah well, I'll just set it and see what happens	19:28
lardman	qwerty12: thanks for the link btw :)	19:28
RST38h	javis: sounds weird	19:29
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javispedro	the weird thing is that the wm doesn't "request" portrait when rotated	19:29
javispedro	other than that, it's mostly what you explained.	19:29
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lardman	so this should work? hildon_gtk_window_set_portrait_flags(*window, HILDON_PORTRAIT_MODE_SUPPORT);	19:29
javispedro	it's up to individual apps to request portrait when required.	19:29
lardman	ignore the odd *window stuff	19:30
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javispedro	the autorotating stuff should be a candidate for libhildonextras	19:30
RST38h	It is all messed up :(	19:31
* RST38h would expect WM simply resize his windows on rotation		19:32
javispedro	heh I was right it the a320 used linux	19:32
javispedro	the guy says the linux one goes faster than the custom kernel one.	19:32
RST38h	javis: Ah, forget him, go for the sharper guy =)	19:32
RST38h	That one is funnier	19:33
javispedro	I tried the linux one or so the owner said me.	19:33
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RST38h	does it play GBA games at full speed based on sw emulation alone then? :)	19:34
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javispedro	it plays them "like ZSNES".	19:34
javispedro	..	19:34
SpeedEvil	I thought it just transported large numbers of people over large distances quite fast.	19:34
luke-jr	my GameBoy Advance plays GBA games at full speed :)	19:34
* luke-jr runs		19:34
javispedro	my guess is that the dingoo's custom kernel one is snes9x while the "linux" one is drpocketsnes (as usual).	19:35
javispedro	so no surprises.	19:35
lardman	actually iirc the a320 does use Linux	19:35
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lardman	as I've seen in the inflight entertainment system crash	19:36
lardman	;)	19:36
javispedro	post that to tmo just to confuse them ;)	19:36
lardman	lol yeah	19:36
javispedro	well I can't outcompete "it feels like ZSNES" so end of discussion.	19:37
RST38h	lardman: I have seen it start X11	19:39
RST38h	lardman: with the X cursor and all	19:40
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lardman	yeah, sounds about right	19:40
lardman	bbiab	19:40
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javispedro	RST38h: oh, cmon. I can think of one workload where Java is faster than C.	19:53
crashanddie	javispedro, development?	19:53
javispedro	bah, that's subjective.	19:53
crashanddie	javispedro, segfaults?	19:53
javispedro	not really.	19:54
javispedro	but	19:54
javispedro	the equivalent of	19:54
javispedro	const int max = A_LOT; for (int i = 0; i < max; i++) { void * m = malloc(60); } should be faster on Java.	19:54
javispedro	;)	19:54
crashanddie	that is, until you reach the VM heap maximum	19:55
crashanddie	at which point if would just fail	19:55
crashanddie	it would**	19:55
javispedro	well the C version would fail then too.	19:55
jaska	iirc you cant even change the heap maximum runtime :\|	19:55
crashanddie	excepted C doesn't have a heap ;)	19:55
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crashanddie	jaska, you can, actually	19:55
javispedro	the c library does.	19:55
crashanddie	javispedro, it does?	19:56
javispedro	malloc / free	19:56
javispedro	that's a heap.	19:56
javispedro	not garbage collected of course, but a heap.	19:56
jaska	crashanddie: o.O, last time i looked i didnt figure out how to	19:56
jaska	then again im no java guy	19:56
crashanddie	javispedro, what I meant was: the Java VM has a pre-allocated chunk of memory	19:58
crashanddie	javispedro, so memory assignment is just an internal process, whereas C needs to "ask" it from the OS	19:58
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javispedro	well If that's the case it is a limitation of the VM, not anything perse.	19:59
javispedro	maybe because changing heap size at runtime on a generational gc is hard.	19:59
javispedro	s/hard/complex	19:59
javispedro	but shouldn't...	19:59
javispedro	hum..	20:00
javispedro	cometothinkofit	20:00
javispedro	java can change the heap size at runtime!	20:00
javispedro	I mean, the sun JVM does. There's a min and max settings.	20:00
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RST38h	javis: ohmygodrunforthehills	20:02
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* RST38h remembers how KVM creates a new heap in each function		20:02
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RST38h	And destroys it at exit, apparently as the last ditch attempt to control memory leaks	20:03
* lcukn900 waves from kebab shop		20:03
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RST38h	moo lcuk	20:03
RST38h	happy kebab time =)	20:03
javispedro	well, my own stupid VM's "new" func is implemented as "void *p = stackP; stackP += request; return p" ;)	20:04
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javispedro	er.. stackP is a stupid name here but you get the idea	20:04
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javispedro	and malloc performance is everything! I will rule the world!	20:05
* javispedro hides		20:05
RST38h	javis: you remember that test that showed Java being faster than C++?	20:07
Proteous	pics or it didn't happen...	20:07
javispedro	RST38h: which one?	20:07
RST38h	by as much as 30%	20:07
Proteous	maybe 30% or more	20:08
javispedro	cause there's like a hundred of them... (there's quite a lot of academics that want to put java back on supercomputing centers...)	20:08
RST38h	javis: Well, they basically took a few web-bound applications, programmed them in Java and C++ (similar code) and showed how Java was 30% faster	20:08
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javispedro	"web-bound"?	20:08
javispedro	heh.	20:08
RST38h	javis: Closer examination revealed that these apps did a lot of memory allocations (strings! web is all about strings)	20:08
javispedro	there's also an interesting point where the sun jvm performs well	20:09
RST38h	javis: And GCC memory allocator just hasn't been tuned well enough. Java memory allocator obviously was	20:09
lcukn900	rst happens everywhere	20:09
javispedro	runtime inlining -- don't understimate it specially when gcc doesn't use intercompilation unit optimizations	20:09
RST38h	lcuk: Not everywhere can you get rights to claim that "java is faster than c++" though :)	20:10
RST38h	javis: does nothing to those new's and delete's	20:10
RST38h	javis: Using memory pools does help though, but it is usually application-specific approach	20:10
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RST38h	javis: But forget all that, in GCC they all end up with malloc()s	20:11
RST38h	Or did, anyway	20:11
javispedro	yeah, but sometimes makes the jvm perform much better in smaller benchmarks -- until you add -fwhole-program to the C program flags	20:11
Flandry	man i love this channel	20:11
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javispedro	Flandry: it IS lovely :)	20:12
RST38h	javis: Dunno, frankly I have not seen that happen ever.	20:12
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RST38h	javis: I did see Java applet crash Linux once though =)	20:12
Proteous	I have never not seen it not happen sometimes	20:12
javispedro	heh	20:13
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RST38h	Four more votes needed for Speccy	20:15
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kkito	hello	20:16
javispedro	RST38h: i've seen it happen specially in non-serious benchmarks. Cause every C++ serious benchmarks doesn't abuse virtual functions where performance is required etc.	20:16
kkito	i am programming a videogame for n900	20:16
RST38h	javis: virtual functions impact is somewhat overrated :)	20:16
kkito	i have problems capturing the X event keys	20:16
kkito	i am able to capture mouse press, mouse motion, but no even keyboard key press	20:16
kkito	do you know why?	20:17
javispedro	what toolkit are you using, kkito?	20:17
javispedro	gtk+, qt, sdl, or bare x11?	20:17
kkito	javispedro, i am using Xlib	20:17
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javispedro	interesting. can you see if your keypresses go to a background app?	20:17
RST38h	javis: STL is probably worst offender performance wise, because it implicitely uses dynamic memory allocation	20:17
adeus	should it matter?	20:18
RST38h	javis: Then exception handling	20:18
adeus	if you're monitoring the xevent loop	20:18
kkito	javispedro, yes, the contact list	20:18
javispedro	I mean, if while your application is topmost keypresses go to a background window	20:18
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javispedro	that means your app is not requesting the input focus, which the fremantle wm seems to care about.	20:18
qwerty12	kkito: http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/developers/55127?page=last	20:18
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Flandry	ah yes, it's time for my daily RFT (request for testers): http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/uqm/0.6.7-0maemo/	20:18
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javispedro	https://bugs.maemo.org/attachment.cgi?id=1526&action=view	20:19
javispedro	Input focus, as I though :)	20:19
Flandry	hmm are they really sticking to the demand that all apps have a bugchecker id	20:19
kkito	javispedro, when i press th "a" key (for example), then the contact list window open ups	20:20
Flandry	last discussion i saw of that, it was a discouraged encouragement	20:20
qwerty12	kkito: Again, http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/maemo/developers/55127?page=last	20:20
javispedro	kkito: yeah, that's the input focus problem. look at qwerty12's link and https://bugs.maemo.org/attachment.cgi?id=1526&action=view	20:20
* qwerty12 can't believe they still haven't applied that patch...		20:21
kkito	ok, i am goint to take look, thx to all!	20:21
qwerty12	Been a while since I filed it	20:21
javispedro	it should be in upstream doesn't it?	20:22
* qwerty12 has no idea about xev's upstream =)		20:23
javispedro	i guess xorg	20:23
qwerty12	xev on the N900 gave me problems so, naturally, I just uploaded that patch to Maemo's bugtracker	20:24
javispedro	yes yes, that's good enough.	20:24
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kkito	javispedro, do you know the bug number of the last patch?	20:25
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qwerty12_N810	bug 5987	20:25
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5987 xev does not catch keypresses on N900	20:25
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tigert	i think on Home, theres something that grabs kbd events to do the quick contact search / phonecall popup	20:41
Proteous	I caught a keypress once, just about broke my net.	20:41
tigert	maybe that interferes	20:41
tigert	maybe theres a way to make it work, I'd ask on the mailing list -dunno if this has been discussed before	20:42
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qwerty12_N810	RST38h: I lack the motivation, and - since it uses libhildonfm2 - I can't see how it would be any better :)	20:55
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RST38h	qwerty: ah =)	20:56
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Jaffa	Ev'ning	21:36
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pupnik	nes emu runs 200+ fps internally	21:38
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RST38h	moo pupnik	21:40
zerojay	which one?	21:42
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RST38h	"Has Sci-Fi Run Out of Steam?" (C)Slashdot	21:51
Flandry	hmm	21:51
RST38h	(no, idiots, you are just growing out of your favorite sysadmin scifi genres)	21:51
`0660_	:)	21:52
Flandry	ha	21:52
Flandry	well i think the problem is that the achievable has been narrowed leaving only the unachievable	21:53
Flandry	look at Poul Anderson's later work	21:53
RST38h	You are missing the point ;)	21:53
Flandry	it was all more or less hard science fiction, and always came to the conclusion that human space travel is a doomed endeavor	21:54
Flandry	so the ability of sci fi to motivate and inspire has been reduced by our achievement of the majority of the inspiring bits	21:54
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RST38h	Like any other literature, good scifi is about people, not about technology or science	21:54
Flandry	that's neither here nor there by the criterion of the article	21:55
RST38h	So, if you concetrate solely on technology (and all these slashdotters appear to be cyberpunk fans) then you sooner or later run out of steam	21:55
Flandry	Boat of a Million Years is a great example of this	21:56
RST38h	Haven't read it, but there are multiple good examples	21:56
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RST38h	They are just more complex than another cyberpunk book about the "cyberspace"	21:56
Flandry	it doesn't concentrate on technology, but on the effect that advancement has on humankind	21:57
RST38h	Well, stuff by Dan Simmons is all like that	21:57
javispedro	if I read another book where cyberspace is the premise i'm going to puke	21:57
Flandry	the human spirit as it were	21:57
RST38h	Some of it is seriously hallucinogenic	21:57
Flandry	i never got into those actually	21:57
Flandry	haven't even read snow crash	21:57
RST38h	Try them	21:57
Flandry	meh	21:57
* RST38h also have not read Snow Crash. Tried but was turned off		21:57
crashanddie	god Assassin's Creed II is a good game	21:58
RST38h	China Mieville also writes decent stuff, not sure what drugs he is on though	21:58
lardman\|afk	crashanddie: really?	21:58
crashanddie	lardman\|afk, yeah, I love it	21:58
lardman\|afk	crashanddie: last one was rather repetitive	21:58
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crashanddie	lardman\|afk, got it yesterday evening, played 12 hours straight	21:58
lardman	bloody hell	21:59
Flandry	i like sci fi as an ensign of the human spirit, not an exploration of alternative realities/lifestyles	21:59
* microlith ponders an on-device answering machine for the N900		21:59
crashanddie	lardman, they added a monetary system which really changes the whole game	21:59
lardman	I bought CoD Modern Warfare 2 the other day	21:59
Flandry	Heinlein walked the line usually	21:59
lardman	nice game	21:59
crashanddie	lardman, yeah, got that too	21:59
crashanddie	lardman, solo is too short though	21:59
crashanddie	lardman, PS3 or xbox?	21:59
lardman	PC	21:59
crashanddie	damn	22:00
lardman	I need an nVidia 260 or higher for work, so should make the graphics even better :)	22:00
crashanddie	lardman, so basically, in AC2, there's one city that you can invest in, so that for example, you upgrade the bank, a few stores and build a brothel, and suddenly the whole city changes, everything looks a lot nicer	22:00
Flandry	heheh the brothel really spruces things up eh?	22:01
crashanddie	lardman, after that, it brings you a steady income, and now that I've upgraded everything in the city, it basically pays for all my skills upgrades	22:01
lardman	oh right, you can invest money?	22:01
lardman	what about game play though?	22:01
lardman	I didn't much like the fighting in the last one, plus the endless repetition of the missions was boring	22:01
* Chani worries		22:01
crashanddie	because when you steal from people, it makes you "known" from the guards, and there's posters of you and stuff	22:01
crashanddie	lardman, well, fighting is pretty much the same, even though there's a lot of variation in the actions you can do	22:02
Chani	so I woke up this morning because my n900 made a funny noise. it's plugged into my laptop but still had the orange charging light. it wasn't responding.	22:02
crashanddie	that being said, because you've got that much more items at your disposition, you don't actually have to fight	22:02
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crashanddie	just shoot a smoke bomb and run away, dive into the water and swim under water to escape, hire a militia on the fly to stop the guards, etc	22:02
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crashanddie	you can also hire some thiefs or hos to distract the guards while you slip through undetected	22:03
Chani	I held down the power button until it turned off... then I tried to turn it back on... I get five dots bouncing back and forth for a coule of seconds, hten the screen goes blank but there's still a blue glow from hte corner light, hten nothing	22:03
Chani	I can see a faint nokia logo on hte screen...	22:04
crashanddie	Chani, pull the usb cable	22:04
crashanddie	Chani, pull the battery	22:04
CoreFusion-	Chani: take the battery off for a while	22:04
Chani	aw crud, it's so hard to get at the battery...	22:04
RST38h	Flandry : can't say much of human spirit	22:05
crashanddie	no it's not	22:05
mikhas	Chani, use a credit card	22:05
crashanddie	Chani, this is a N900, not an iPhone, getting the battery out isn't hard, in comparison	22:05
* Chani pulls it out		22:05
Chani	crashanddie: oh?	22:05
RST38h	Flandry : but the details of the setting (i.e. the alternativeness of reality etc) are kinda arbitrary in good sci fi	22:05
GeneralAntilles	lardman, yeah, 1 was repetitive but the story kept me in through the end.	22:05
* Chani got to play with an iphone for a minute once. it was weird.		22:05
RST38h	Flandry: can be a freaking fairy land with unicorns for all I care :)	22:06
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles & lardman: also, now you don't need to get the viewpoints, investigate or beat someone up, and then kill the guy	22:06
GeneralAntilles	lardman, too bad about PC. My friends and I have been reeking havoc on the 360. ;)	22:06
Flandry	sure	22:06
GeneralAntilles	crashanddie, that's nice.	22:06
lardman	GeneralAntilles, crashanddie: I need to go back and continue it really	22:06
RST38h	ok, away	22:06
GeneralAntilles	The viewpoints, while cinematic, got incredibly, stupidly repetitive after a very short time.	22:06
lardman	GeneralAntilles, crashanddie: It's pretty crap that these cross-platform games don't allow cross-platform multiplayer	22:07
GeneralAntilles	lol	22:07
GeneralAntilles	It makes sense, though	22:07
GeneralAntilles	PC players would completely dominate the console players.	22:07
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles & lardman: the game doesn't care about the viewpoints really, you just don't have a map if you don't... even though you still see all the interest points relative to your missions, you just don't see what's around ya	22:07
lardman	GeneralAntilles: why?	22:07
crashanddie	lardman, because keyboard and mouse rocks the casbah?	22:07
GeneralAntilles	lardman, because two joysticks do not a mouse and keyboard make.	22:07
lardman	indeed, so why buy a console I ask myself ;)	22:08
Flandry	indeed	22:08
GeneralAntilles	Price, convenienc	22:08
crashanddie	lardman, because it's a helluva lot cheaper?	22:08
Flandry	i never have	22:08
GeneralAntilles	and social stuff.	22:08
lardman	is it cheaper?	22:08
Flandry	i need a comp anyway	22:08
crashanddie	I paid £250 for the PS3, with 2 games	22:08
GeneralAntilles	An Xbox 360 is $200.	22:08
lardman	I guess so, depends if you need a PC for work or not	22:08
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Chani	:/ now it just doesn't want to turn on.	22:08
crashanddie	lardman, and that's the new one, the slim	22:08
GeneralAntilles	No screwing around with drivers, network cards or running out of hard drive space.	22:08
lardman	yeah fair enough	22:08
GeneralAntilles	Just get online and play	22:08
crashanddie	lardman, plus i get BBC iPlayer in HD on it, bluray, and what not (and also, no cheating bastards)	22:09
GeneralAntilles	Plus, all of my friends have 360s.	22:09
GeneralAntilles	Very few of them have gaming-capable PCs.	22:09
* lardman wonders when a coop Aliens vs Marines game will come out...?		22:09
Chani	I get a solid yellow light if I plug in the usb	22:09
GeneralAntilles	lardman, Gears of War?	22:09
lardman	We used to play at work/uni	22:09
lardman	no like real Aliens	22:09
sp3000	Chani: use a charger	22:09
sp3000	for a few minutes	22:09
Chani	sp3000: the usb charger is my only chargere	22:09
crashanddie	Chani, leave it be for a couple of minutes	22:10
lardman	there was supposed to be a coop game coming out where you (or us, our group) could play the Marines, were rather looking forward to that	22:10
GeneralAntilles	lardman, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliens:_Colonial_Marines perhaps?	22:10
Chani	poor little thing...	22:10
crashanddie	lardman, like an evo of AvP?	22:10
lardman	crashanddie: yeah	22:10
lardman	GeneralAntilles: sounds about right	22:10
GeneralAntilles	I love coop campaign games.	22:10
lardman	we mod'ed AvP, but wasn't great for coop	22:10
crashanddie	AvP was awesome though	22:10
crashanddie	3 marines, 1 queen, 20 hours of fun	22:11
GeneralAntilles	lardman, have you tried Tremulous?	22:11
Chani	ooh! picked it up and it vibrated and the light started pulsing. :)	22:11
crashanddie	anyway, getting back to the game	22:11
crashanddie	Chani, that's what she said	22:11
lardman	GeneralAntilles: nope	22:11
Chani	hehehe	22:11
GeneralAntilles	lardman, do.	22:11
crashanddie	oh, and lardman	22:11
lardman	ah, I've heard of it, read about it	22:12
crashanddie	why buy a console? Because it's easier to convince the spouse that you're spending the money on something "everyone will use"	22:12
lardman	now I see the screenie	22:12
lardman	lol	22:12
lardman	well mine wants a wii	22:12
lardman	I think	22:12
GeneralAntilles	Ought to buy one and find out. :P	22:13
* lardman thinks back to the afternoons of Multiplayer Far Cry and Doom3		22:13
lardman	GeneralAntilles: money doesn't grow on trees ;p	22:13
GeneralAntilles	lardman, oh? Sucks for you, then. :P	22:13
lardman	lol	22:13
* GeneralAntilles waited in line in sub-freezing weather to get a Wii.		22:14
qwerty12_N810	lardman: No, but they're easily softmodded, so you can - ahem - get back the money	22:14
GeneralAntilles	lol	22:14
GeneralAntilles	qwerty12_N810, bad person.	22:14
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lardman	the big problem with the wii, the way I see it, is that you should just go out and play the sport you are playing on it, rather than risking your living room furntiure	22:15
GeneralAntilles	But USB loading really does reduce load times.	22:15
crashanddie	lardman, oh, and another reason to buy AC2: Leonardo Da Vincin	22:15
crashanddie	-n	22:15
GeneralAntilles	and it's much nicer not having to rifle through CD cases.	22:15
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GeneralAntilles	lardman, Wii Sports is only a small part of the Wii's appeal. ;)	22:15
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GeneralAntilles	Zelda and Mario are in there, too.	22:15
crashanddie	lardman, wii sports is fun with multiple people, it really can be super fun, for any kind of group age	22:15
GeneralAntilles	(Super Mario Bros Wii is absolutely amazing)	22:15
crashanddie	(no surprise there that they sold 50 million units)	22:15
* lardman thinks of real sports being super fun, etc., etc		22:15
lardman	:)	22:16
crashanddie	lardman, yeah, but how many of your mates come round for a beer or dinner and you then go, "let's go play some tennis, you brought your racket with?"	22:16
lardman	not many, true	22:16
crashanddie	It's not about playing the sport	22:16
crashanddie	it's about having fun	22:16
crashanddie	same as when you play a video game where you mass murder 300 civilians, it really isn't something you'd do because you're bored on a saturday afternoon	22:17
crashanddie	(MW2)	22:17
lardman	true	22:17
lardman	well, probably depends on what you have available	22:17
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lardman	so, wii probably the best bet for "fun" gaming, rather than serious, which I'd do on the PC anyway	22:18
lardman	?	22:18
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GeneralAntilles	crashanddie, you don't mass murder anybody.	22:19
GeneralAntilles	crashanddie, I fired all of 50 rounds in that mission and none of them were at civilians.	22:19
GeneralAntilles	lardman, generally speaking.	22:19
GeneralAntilles	lardman, although it has its share of serious stuff, too.	22:19
lardman	going back OT for a moment, can I disable an edit/entry widget so I can select and copy from it,. but not edit it?	22:19
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, talking about playing online, I mass murder everyone <-- leet playa	22:19
GeneralAntilles	crashanddie, ha, sure.	22:19
lardman	GeneralAntilles: just thinking of the wife really, and I'll doubtless play it too :)	22:19
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, jk, I destroyed those headless chicken in the airport	22:19
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lardman	any sword/stick fighting games?	22:20
* lardman doesn't do that enough in the real world		22:20
GeneralAntilles	crashanddie, by the way, everybody's a "leet playa" in their own eyes. :P	22:20
GeneralAntilles	Just ask qwerty12.	22:20
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, Actually, I used to be pretty good at CS back in the day	22:22
qwerty12_N810	lardman: http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/5.0-final/gtk/GtkEditable.html#gtk-editable-set-editable	22:22
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, was in ATR, top10 FR, went to the CPL in 2002 (won't say my ranking though)	22:22
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, but now, I really don't play "for da frags" anymore, I just want to enjoy myself	22:23
qwerty12_N810	Too much info =)	22:23
lardman	qwerty12_N810: thanks, missed that	22:23
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GeneralAntilles	crashanddie, as long as I'm maintaining a positive KDR I'm good. ;)	22:25
GeneralAntilles	Got some dead-weight friends to compensate for.	22:26
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, I'm not even pos in MW2	22:26
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lardman	what's KDR?	22:26
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lardman	Kills to Death ratio?	22:26
GeneralAntilles	Yeah	22:26
GeneralAntilles	Hovering around 1.5 here.	22:26
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lardman	http://wiki.maemo.org/Using_Fremantle_Widgets#Portrait_Mode is confusing	22:28
lardman	is the recommended method to listen for the orientation messages, or the screen size change ones?	22:28
GeneralAntilles	Finnglish!	22:29
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qwerty12_N810	GeneralAntilles: camelCase!	22:29
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philosopher	do you guys think maemo need a beter sdk/develloping platform to attract more coders ?	22:29
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GeneralAntilles	philosopher, yes.	22:29
lcuk	yes	22:29
philosopher	and is there work on that from nokia ?	22:29
lcuk	well, not in some ways	22:30
philosopher	maybe a higher language than c/c++	22:30
GeneralAntilles	philosopher, that's not the answer.	22:30
lcuk	the language isnt the problem	22:30
GeneralAntilles	Something that ins't obnoxious and irritating to install and use	22:30
qwerty12_N810	philosopher: ATM, I think Maemo needs an app store that has not had its policies designed by an idiot	22:30
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GeneralAntilles	and actually supports a number of platforms.	22:30
lcuk	the current nice gui sdk installs cleanly now with minimum of fuss	22:30
GeneralAntilles	qwerty12_N810, s/idiot/team of lawyers/	22:30
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philosopher	actually the sdk doesnt work for me	22:31
lardman	the issue there is that they've not bothered to change the rules isn't it?	22:31
GeneralAntilles	Grab the VM	22:31
qwerty12_N810	GeneralAntilles: When I have to admit Apple has done it better, it makes me cry inside :)	22:31
lardman	philosopher: how so?	22:31
philosopher	but what i meant is that it seems that android and iphone Os avec better developent env than maemo	22:32
GeneralAntilles	qwerty12_N810, Apple often does things better.	22:32
lcuk	better is subjective	22:32
GeneralAntilles	The compromises you have to make for it though are often disagreeable.	22:32
philosopher	lardman: just hang-up every time i try using firefox	22:32
lardman	inside scratchbox?	22:32
lcuk	you can build everything in the current sdk	22:32
philosopher	yes	22:32
philosopher	with vmwre and ubuntu	22:32
lardman	philosopher: well that's not really what it's for	22:32
philosopher	lardman: really ? i missed something then	22:33
lardman	have you cross-compiled firefox for the device?	22:33
lardman	and are now trying to run it from within sb?	22:33
lardman	which target? armel or x86?	22:33
* lcuk grabs bottle of wine and offers to folks		22:34
lardman	yes please!	22:34
lardman	:)	22:34
* lcuk nods		22:34
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* lcuk pours glass to the brim and necks it		22:34
philosopher	armel	22:34
lardman	armel emulation has issues	22:34
philosopher	but i thought the sdk contain already a ready image of maemo ?	22:34
lardman	best to test on device really	22:35
lardman	not afaiu anyway	22:35
philosopher	GeneralAntilles: compromise ?	22:35
lcuk	philosopher, it contains a close enough version	22:35
lcuk	with web browser and apps	22:35
lcuk	on your x86 machine i believe you are still best running the x86 target	22:35
GeneralAntilles	philosopher, you loose freedom for a functional ecosystem.	22:35
philosopher	GeneralAntilles: functional ecosystem ?	22:36
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lcuk	functional ecosystem?	22:36
qwerty12_N810	functional ecosystem?	22:36
* lardman goes for more wine ;)		22:38
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* Shapeshifter is standing in front of the NYC flagship store.		22:38
andre__	wine! good idea...	22:38
Shapeshifter	....on google street view	22:39
lcuk	Shapeshifter, excellent are you buying?	22:39
lcuk	doh!	22:39
Shapeshifter	xD	22:39
Shapeshifter	there's a huge UPS van blocking the view.	22:39
lcuk	n900 delivery?	22:40
* qwerty12_N810 is sitting in his house, on his sofa, watching the Shit Factor, with his N810 and N900 in his hands		22:40
philosopher	GeneralAntilles: ?	22:40
philosopher	so anyone think nokia need to adopt like mono or java as an offical languages ?	22:41
Shapeshifter	there's a loot of taxis in NYC	22:42
microlith	philosopher: no, very much no	22:42
philosopher	really ?	22:42
philosopher	purist ?	22:42
qwerty12_N810	philosopher: Just you?	22:42
philosopher	not just asking actually i am a c/c++ develloper	22:43
philosopher	but most app develloper dont like c/c++	22:43
lcuk	adopting a new language would be a massive undertaking and would require a substantial retooling whilst also making sure the underlying framework still existed: for reference look at the move to qt	22:43
luke-jr	philosopher: Mono/Java suck	22:44
philosopher	luke-jr: is trolling ?	22:44
lardman	good lord, X-Factor is the biggest pile of bollocks I've ever had the misfortune to walk in and watch a couple of minutes of while pouring myself a glass of wine	22:44
luke-jr	the real world works in C and such	22:44
lcuk	hey luke-jr you see ms opened up the mini .net framework under apache license?	22:44
luke-jr	lcuk: like I care?	22:44
lcuk	or micro/nano or whatever its called	22:44
philosopher	lcuk: good point but isnt that really neccessary to get the kind of cusual developer that meamo needs ?	22:45
lcuk	its open source tho	22:45
luke-jr	so?	22:45
luke-jr	it's still .NET :p	22:45
* lardman likes C		22:45
lcuk	philosopher, readup on python	22:45
philosopher	luke-jr: you are making pointless argument...	22:45
lcuk	casual devs can use that, less causal ones will stick with cobol or lisp	22:45
lardman	nah, assembly	22:45
qwerty12_N810	lardman: I thought you were a MATLAB guy? :)	22:46
lcuk	matlab is c++ isnt it	22:46
lardman	yeah for most stuff, but when I have to write something fast I turn back to old school C or FORTRAN	22:46
qwerty12_N810	Heh	22:46
lardman	and MATLAB's pretty quick actually, C is only 2x as fast	22:47
* lcuk adores C, detests the boilerplate and padding around the useful parts		22:47
philosopher	actually the .net compact is not opensource	22:47
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lcuk	i never said compact	22:47
lardman	sounds like something with a mirror + sponge in it	22:48
lardman	s/sponge/poof	22:48
philosopher	lcuk: was talking about mono ?	22:48
philosopher	so if i understand you guys think that c++/c is the languages needs	22:49
lcuk	no, i was talking about the .net micro framework used in embedded systems (like the MS clock) its a minimal super tight .net implementation	22:49
lcuk	and looks supercool tbh	22:49
lardman	philosopher: no, Python or similar would be better to get people programming really	22:50
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philosopher	lcuk: but pointless when your platform have an oss	22:50
philosopher	lardman: hummm maybe	22:50
lardman	well, something simple, and Python is reasonably so	22:51
philosopher	i ll give it a try never programmed in python	22:51
lcuk	philosopher, you rightly pointed out java/monoetc. i like the language of .net	22:51
lardman	that's because you've had the misfortune to program for Windows recently ;)	22:51
philosopher	lol	22:52
philosopher	lardman: have try c# and .net dev env ?	22:52
lcuk	you told us you enjoyed it	22:52
lcuk	you came in chan every night happy as larry	22:52
lcuk	"ohhh look i got to build a form today!"	22:52
lardman	oi, stop tarnishing my good name!	22:52
lardman	I did have to embrace VB (6) once again the other day though	22:52
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lcuk	see	22:53
lcuk	hi javis	22:53
* lcuk gets back to scratchbox anyway		22:53
qwerty12_N810	lcuk: You? Scratchbox?	22:53
lardman	so I guess it's comparatively better ;)	22:53
lcuk	:) yes	22:53
javispedro	hi lcuk	22:54
philosopher	so what should i download to start mamoe dev ?	22:54
frogger	does someone can give me a hint how to get the selected text in the GtkEntry widget ?	22:55
frogger	does someone can give me a hint how to get the selected text in the GtkEntry widget ?	22:55
javispedro	philosopher: the SDK	22:55
lardman	philosopher: what do you want to program?	22:55
lardman	philosopher: what sort of apps?	22:55
philosopher	lardman: no clue just testing how the dev env is	22:55
lardman	I see	22:56
lardman	well you could do Python on-device, or anywhere else you wanted, as long as you test on device	22:57
lcuk	philosopher, http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Final_SDK_Installation	22:57
lcuk	if you are in linux	22:57
philosopher	dont i need a set library for biding ?	22:58
* javispedro actually likes sbox		22:58
javispedro	then the only other embedded toolchain I've used is the oldie palmos one, so...	22:58
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lardman	philosopher: Python in interpreted	22:58
lardman	s/in/is	22:58
philosopher	lcuk: that what i did , but i thought someone said that the sdk wasnt for develloping ?	22:58
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lcuk	its a TLA, (S)oftware (D)evelopment (K)it	22:59
lcuk	you decide	22:59
philosopher	lardman: yes... that why i beileve that maemo could rely on it for heavy development	22:59
lardman	it's slower than C/C++ though, and the bindings are not all present	23:00
javispedro	considering on of the complais of android is the fact everything is interpreted...	23:00
javispedro	s/on/one	23:00
javispedro	s/complais/complaints	23:00
philosopher	lcuk ok now i am confuse ....	23:00
lcuk	its java isnt it	23:00
javispedro	I was surprised when I found the android sdk contains an actual emulator	23:00
javispedro	being java I though they would just ship a x86 dalvik	23:00
philosopher	i said that the sdk didnt work for me and hangup anytime i use firefox in the scratchbox	23:01
* timeless_mbp sighs		23:01
javispedro	firefox in the scratchbox?	23:01
timeless_mbp	so... are people using mxr.maemo.org yet?	23:01
timeless_mbp	javispedro: fwiw, that will definitely fail soon if it doesn't yet	23:01
philosopher	javispedro: yes	23:01
timeless_mbp	firefox jit requires armvSomething	23:01
timeless_mbp	and last i checked qemu's armv support was lame	23:01
javispedro	timeless: I used it a bit a few days ago, search for some clutter or hildon-desktop related stuff iirc. worked fine.	23:02
timeless_mbp	javispedro: =)	23:02
timeless_mbp	please advertise it	23:02
GeneralAntilles	philosopher, dear god no Java.	23:02
timeless_mbp	it can save people a lot of time/trouble	23:02
timeless_mbp	and it can certainly save me a lot of frustration	23:02
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javispedro	agreed, a pretty useful tool.	23:03
crashanddie	javispedro, Android supports native C	23:03
javispedro	philosopher: why do you want to run firefox in scratchbox? or do you mean the "Maemo Browser"?	23:03
philosopher	javispedro: yea maemo browser i meant	23:03
GeneralAntilles	Newegg claimed Mozilla developed the Maemo 5 browser.	23:04
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: You sound like RST38h	23:04
javispedro	crashanddie: I know, but this shows Google cares about people using native C.	23:04
lcuk	timeless, how best to advertise. we know of it and use it on random intervals as developers, and when someone is asking code related questions we can guide them there	23:04
Jaffa	crashanddie: Does it have direct access to any useful libraries, or do you have to go back up to Java and down again?	23:04
* timeless_mbp shrugs		23:04
javispedro	else why they would ship an slow as molasses emulator when a quick x86 dalvik would've done a much better job?	23:05
timeless_mbp	GeneralAntilles: wah	23:05
crashanddie	Jaffa, nha, you actually get some useful libraries	23:05
philosopher	GeneralAntilles: why not java ?	23:05
Jaffa	crashanddie: ah, cool.	23:05
javispedro	Jaffa: at least you can output to fb0 without going back to Java. Sound's another story.	23:05
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, as official platform language, though?	23:05
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, support is fine, but turning the platform into Android is not a direction I want to see things go in.	23:06
crashanddie	Jaffa, I've seen DMA, file access, and some low-level devices interaction, so I'm guessing it really depends on how well you manage to convince them to give you access really	23:06
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: Official; don't mind. And I can see why Nokia wants to focus on Qt (with C++) as the official (with WRT) language.	23:06
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: And it won't anytime soon.	23:06
Jaffa	Something of the same quality of PyMaemo but in Java would be nice, though.	23:07
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, clearly, but what I was responding to is important context here. :P	23:07
lcuk	wrt runs javascript doesnt it grin	23:07
crashanddie	Jaffa, are you going to work with C++ and Qt to have fun after coming back from work?	23:07
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: There's a lot of scrollback to read ;-)	23:07
Jaffa	crashanddie: I think I might be focussing on the Python/Qt route a bit more ;-)	23:07
crashanddie	guys, should I go for pizza, quarter pounder or anything else (not inspired on food)	23:07
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, then probably not worth continuing to discuss the subject.	23:07
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: I agreed with you <shrug/>	23:08
Jaffa	crashanddie: pizza	23:08
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GeneralAntilles	crashanddie, pizza.	23:08
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GeneralAntilles	crashanddie, unless you're talking about a quality burger.	23:08
VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, don't forget my request :P	23:08
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, not really	23:09
crashanddie	but pizzas are shit in the UK	23:09
lcuk	crashanddie, i second pizza	23:09
GeneralAntilles	VDVsx, what's your request?	23:09
lcuk	agreed, but burgers are worse	23:09
GeneralAntilles	Sucks to be you guys.	23:09
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, no it doesn;t	23:09
* GeneralAntilles can find both excellent pizzas and excellent burgers within 5 minutes of here.		23:09
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, i'll be in aus soon, so fuck UK pizzas xD	23:09
VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, test my app with MAC OS :)	23:10
qwerty12_N810	crashanddie: He's just pissed at Florida having shit 3G	23:10
lcuk	3g, how old	23:10
crashanddie	qwerty12_N810, and moskitos	23:10
lcuk	i have 3.5g here	23:10
RST38h	General: how about French crepes though?	23:10
crashanddie	qwerty12_N810, and swamps	23:10
crashanddie	qwerty12_N810, and no decent clubs or city	23:10
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crashanddie	qwerty12_N810, and no decent university	23:10
lardman	crashanddie: no more pizzas for you mate, pies + sauce	23:10
andre_	"i have 3.5g here" sounds like 3,5 grams of some drugs to me	23:10
lcuk	qwerty can you have the phone G rating, and up it to 6 or 7 G ?	23:11
qwerty12_N810	lcuk: Precisely! They don't even have that!	23:11
qwerty12_N810	crashanddie: Hehe	23:11
lcuk	lol andre_ well what i just said makes it sound worse	23:11
VDVsx	anyone with a PS3 and a N900 that can test something for me ? :P	23:11
crashanddie	lardman, didn't catch the sense of that	23:11
lardman	you ever been to Australia?	23:12
crashanddie	lardman, do you mean "I need to only eat pies + sauce to remind me of the horrendous UK eating habits, or because that's what I'll be getting foreva"	23:12
lardman	tho there are lots of Italian and Greek restaurants of course	23:12
qwerty12_N810	lcuk: Meh, I keep mine in 2G :p	23:12
GeneralAntilles	VDVsx, oh, right, that.	23:12
lardman	well that's all you'll be getting	23:12
lardman	:)	23:12
crashanddie	interesting	23:12
VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, not a rush ;)	23:12
qwerty12_N810	Ha	23:12
crashanddie	lardman, nope, never been there xD	23:12
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lardman	pies + sauce are good though, staple, especially if you head down to the footie	23:13
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GeneralAntilles	RST38h, good question, never looked.	23:13
lardman	hmm, all this talk of pies and sauce has made /me hungry	23:15
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crashanddie	Hahaha	23:15
qwerty12_N810	lardman: With some wine, of course?	23:15
crashanddie	Just checked my bank statement	23:15
crashanddie	Last week I complained that some website charged too much for the use of the credit card	23:15
lardman	qwerty12_N810: no, at the footie would have to be some beer	23:15
crashanddie	they just refunded 20p	23:16
asdm	I need some help getting a usb device Elm327 to work with N770 and Carman running in host mode	23:16
qwerty12_N810	crashanddie: Treat yourself: Buy 20 sherbets	23:16
crashanddie	qwerty12_N810, a sherbet is 1p?#	23:16
qwerty12_N810	crashanddie: Round here, yeah :p	23:17
lardman	how old are you qwerty12_N810, sound like you're from the 50s!	23:17
lardman	back in my day a sherbet was 1/2d	23:17
lardman	etc	23:17
crashanddie	qwerty12_N810, dude, you realise that when they go through the defrosting process of a freezer, that is not the recommended way of making sherbet?	23:17
javispedro	hmm.. crepes...	23:17
crashanddie	qwerty12_N810, oh, and btw, the actual spelling is sorbet	23:17
lardman	no	23:17
lardman	different thing	23:17
qwerty12_N810	crashanddie: Gah, who said sweets were good for you anyway? :)	23:18
crashanddie	Sherbet, an American term for a frozen dessert like sorbet, but containing a small amount of dairy.	23:18
lardman	what do the Yanks know?	23:18
lardman	they call trousers pants	23:18
GeneralAntilles	Ah, bugzilla hate.	23:18
GeneralAntilles	Gotta love Talk.	23:18
lardman	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherbet_%28powder%29	23:18
lardman	that's the real deal, sherbet	23:18
javispedro	oh, the sun's java vs android's java discussion is still ongoing.	23:19
crashanddie	lardman, oh	23:19
* lardman heads for the bottle again		23:19
lardman	:)	23:19
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GeneralAntilles	andre_, I'd've slaughtered people in that thread by now.	23:19
qwerty12_N810	Quote (C) Internet Tough Guy	23:20
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andre_	GeneralAntilles, no, why? I'm patient (some people call it stubborn though)	23:21
crashanddie	andre_, being certain that you're right and "waiting for people to join your line of thinking" isn't patience	23:22
GeneralAntilles	andre_, irrational, unconstructive people irritate me.	23:22
derf	GeneralAntilles: You'd better stay off the internet, then.	23:22
genewitch	RST38h: you mentioned earlier something about lemmings leaving tmo when they got their n900s; what did you mean? is tmo t-mobile?	23:23
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GeneralAntilles	derf, Talk, anyway.	23:23
GeneralAntilles	talk.maemo.org	23:23
genewitch	Oh	23:23
asdm	rfcomm -i ohci5 listen 0 1	23:23
asdm	<- can this code tell bluetooth config files to use USB device as a bluetooth connection >?	23:23
genewitch	i just want an n900. i can't stand having to wait this long for something that i should have been able to get a week ago	23:23
andre_	crashanddie, thanks :-D	23:23
GeneralAntilles	andre_, bug #6272. Off to a fine start, I see.	23:23
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6272 User-friendliness fail	23:23
GeneralAntilles	andre_, somebody didn't read the bug writing guidelines, I see.	23:24
RST38h	genewitch: talk.maemo.org	23:24
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andre_	i'll wait until monday to triage that	23:24
andre_	want some cool rantings first ;-)	23:24
genewitch	RST38h: oh. i see. lemmings.	23:24
RST38h	General: BTW, I found a relevant quote	23:25
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ShadowJK	genewitch, where does your "should" and a week ago come from? :-)	23:25
RST38h	General: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandar-log	23:25
RST38h	General: check it out	23:25
GeneralAntilles	RST38h, ahaha, that's awesome.	23:26
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VDVsx	andre_, that reminds me that I've something for you :P	23:26
RST38h	General: Anyone familiar? =)	23:26
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andre_	VDVsx, chocolate? yum yum	23:30
zerojay	GeneralAntilles: Link me to this bugzilla hate thread.	23:31
GeneralAntilles	zerojay, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=34878	23:31
GeneralAntilles	Go forth and destrooooy!	23:31
andre_	hell yeah	23:32
zerojay	Hahaha.. I think krisse is just trolling at this point.	23:32
javispedro	I have to wonder how can 4 pages of posts be written in something as plain as the bugzilla bug entry form?	23:33
javispedro	in a single day!	23:33
qwerty12_N810	zerojay: lol, of course. This was the guy who thought Nokia needed to bring out Netbooks with Maemo on 'em...	23:33
GeneralAntilles	krisse's a woman. ;)	23:34
qwerty12_N810	s/guy/lady/	23:34
infobot	qwerty12_N810 meant: zerojay: lol, of course. This was the lady who thought Nokia needed to bring out Netbooks with Maemo on 'em...	23:34
zerojay	"asks for more information than the user needs to give"? She doesn't have a clue how bug tracking works. Providing all the information possible is important because while the user may not see why some piece of info is important, the developer might.	23:35
andre_	feel free to comment :-P	23:35
zerojay	Ooooh, believe me - I plan on it.	23:35
GeneralAntilles	lol, zerojay's gonna be the grump in my place.	23:36
sp3000	generally, forums can be a fine place to discuss bugs for people who can't handle bugzillas	23:36
sp3000	I'm sure some accommodations between them can be made but in the general case I think it's asking for magic	23:37
GeneralAntilles	sp3000, we've had lots of people volunteer to transcribe bugs reported on the forums into useful bugs for bugzilla	23:37
GeneralAntilles	but, much like the people who volunteered to do the same for the wiki, nothing ever came of it.	23:37
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andre_	true	23:37
* Jaffa 's read tmo :-(		23:37
qwerty12_N810	Bad Jaffa	23:38
zerojay	It's also hard to do that when the bugs mentioned on the forums are nothing but vague "it doesn't work" all the time.	23:38
Jaffa	I even tried to limit it to a selection of threads in Community, Development and Applications.	23:38
sp3000	zerojay: yeah, but forums can be more convenient for the prodding	23:39
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GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, junkie.	23:40
qwerty12_N810	Jaffa: Block it on your router, and donate £1 to [charity of your choosing] everytime you try to go on it	23:40
Jaffa	qwerty12_N810: We're going to buy Peter Kay's DVD single of his all-star animated coolness for Children in Need.	23:40
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: I'd closed it until your Bugzilla hate thread	23:40
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GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, muahaha!	23:43
Jaffa	Cut me off, man!	23:43
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zerojay	I've barely been on talk in the last week or so and shit like that makes me feel like I haven't missed much.	23:44
Jaffa	zerojay: I only realy went back to post http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=34888	23:45
Jaffa	my "someone-else read tmo, so I don't have to" idea.	23:45
zerojay	Yeah, I think I saw you say something about it on twitter.	23:45
Jaffa	yeah	23:45
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Jaffa	and -community, and pmo. Spammer <= me	23:46
* Jaffa offs to watch a West Wing.		23:46
GeneralAntilles	Why do people want to distribute OSS through Ovi?	23:49
GeneralAntilles	What qgil seems to be suggesting is that Extras is going to take a rather severe back seat.	23:49
qwerty12_N810	GeneralAntilles: With Nokia blatently promoting the Store more?	23:50
GeneralAntilles	Especially sad since it DOESN'T EVEN WORK	23:50
lbt	GeneralAntilles: I do	23:50
lbt	I want to sell Shopper on ovi	23:50
lbt	the plebs will love it and pay me	23:51
asdm	Anyone ever get N770 And CarMAn to work with USB ELM 327 ?	23:51
lbt	sorry, customers	23:51
lbt	and I am dead serious BTW	23:51
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* Stskeeps should look into corporate liability insurance		23:56
andre_	Stskeeps, also thought about that a year ago. But I can't remember whether I signed a contract or not :)	23:57
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Stskeeps	andre_: were you employed or own company?	23:59
Stskeeps	(forgot)	23:59

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