IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2009-11-20

mza	not saying i want android, i hated my G1	00:00
mza	still be neat	00:00
GeneralAntilles	mza, better off porting the JVM	00:00
realitygaps	qwerty12_N810: ive been using it to dl eastenders :) but streaming is a no go so far from my trials. got no place left on the device for an unoptified mplayer either anymore	00:00
GeneralAntilles	Running full Android is entirely pointless.	00:00
simula	heh	00:00
kynky	once the jvm ported, we get lots of potential extras :)	00:00
* timeless chuckles		00:01
* simula is happy with Qt		00:01
timeless	turns out my cousin works for a company which wrote software for the n800/n810	00:01
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, want to join forces	00:01
qwerty12_N810	realitygaps: Heh. :) Maybe try gstreamer-ffmpeg and see if they play in the default media player? :)	00:02
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zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, i can get the streaming working with gstreamer	00:02
jani	kynky: mm i've seen some metions about jamelino or what its called. is that project going forwards ?	00:02
* qwerty12_N810 thanks zaheerm-lp again for gstreamer-ffmpeg		00:02
realitygaps	zaheerm-lp: cool what can i do to enable that?	00:02
zaheerm-lp	my plan for zoutube was to have iplayer support too	00:02
kynky	that in extras-devel ?	00:02
zaheerm-lp	kynky, yah it'll move to extras-testing when i push zoutube there	00:03
timeless	jani: jalimo?	00:03
jani	oh. so its that far already =)	00:03
GeneralAntilles	timeless, just one big happy Maemo family, eh? ;)	00:03
* realitygaps thinks zoutube kicks ass :) but is still on -10 as the later version didnt play videos anymore		00:03
jani	timeless: something like that =)	00:03
kynky	zaheerm-lp, sweet	00:03
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, oh shit, doesn't it?	00:03
realitygaps	zaheerm, actually i think it was the search that didnt work anymore, havent tried in a coupla days	00:03
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, oh i fixed that :)	00:03
realitygaps	zaheerm, oh cool ill grab a newer version then	00:04
dmj726	zaheerm-lp: any progress on zope?	00:04
zaheerm-lp	latest version in extras-devel has that working, i broke it when adding gpodder integration	00:04
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realitygaps	there is gpodder integration?	00:04
mza	stupid question time...	00:04
mza	when you take a picture, does to make a snapping noise?	00:04
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, yep, select the menu on the video list (screen with thumbnails), and it allows you to subscribe to that list with gpodder	00:04
mza	i hate that about my blackberry	00:04
realitygaps	zaheerm, installing from devel right now...	00:05
realitygaps	mza: mine just goes 'operation failed' when i try to take a pic :)	00:05
mza	realitygaps, dont tell me that!	00:05
zaheerm-lp	i am currently working on a nice way to have full screen video and the controls (play/pause + seekbar)	00:05
realitygaps	mza: no-one else seems to have that problem, yet...	00:05
mza	this device is what i've been waiting for, FOREVER	00:05
realitygaps	mza: yeah me too, dont worry it is THAT device :)	00:06
qwerty12_N810	mza: Hehe, I remember patching my Sony Ericsson to remove that, too... But if you're in Silent mode, it doesn't make a noise	00:06
mza	ive been looking for "the perfect device" for soooo long	00:06
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realitygaps	lots of apps dont do sound with silent mode on, like zoutube didnt last time i tried and also the radio	00:06
zaheerm-lp	dmj726, just got back from bcn last night, want to fix it this weekend	00:06
kynky	mza me2	00:06
Anpr	heya	00:06
dmj726	zaheerm...how about being able to swipe in the controls	00:06
Anpr	hello realitygaps	00:06
zaheerm-lp	dmj726, swipe to previous video?	00:06
zaheerm-lp	dmj726, or swipe from bottom to bring controls	00:07
timeless	oh.. does anyone here have a media player that doesn't suck	00:07
dmj726	ok...I have a break next week, so I'm hoping I can port an app that needs zope	00:07
* javispedro remembers oldie palmos where he basically had to HOPE applications wouldn't make sounds when muted		00:07
timeless	my n900 is on loan to someone who used it	00:07
dmj726	swipe to bring in controls	00:07
mza	i really want to make it a business device	00:07
kynky	even though n900 is pretty powerful, dont think alot of reviewers who mark n900 down alot, realise its awesome potential	00:07
* realitygaps trying to get amsn with webcam to work		00:07
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mza	which means, iCal(caldav)	00:07
mza	and push mail	00:07
Dantonic	woah... Amazon just bumped up the price by $50	00:07
Anpr	hey timeless :) how r u ?	00:07
hrw\|gone	http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/2009/11/19/played-a-bit-with-maemo-5-sdk/	00:07
mza	was thinking i might compile my own MTA	00:07
timeless	and he just demod that the movies thing has no useful jumping w/in a movie	00:07
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mza	and run imapd against localhost	00:07
Dantonic	it is now $609 before rebate!	00:08
hrw\|gone	beware nokia maemo team!	00:08
timeless	and when you leave a movie, you can't see which movie you just watched	00:08
hrw\|gone	;D	00:08
* hrw\|gone -> sleep		00:08
kynky	mza, should be eeasy enough to port1 i would have thought	00:08
zaheerm-lp	timeless, useful jumping?	00:08
timeless	which sucks if your movies were all filmed w/ your n900 on the same day	00:08
* javispedro has nearly a gigabyte of iceweasel core dumps (probably all of them caused by libflashplayer.so)		00:08
timeless	zaheerm: "seeking"	00:08
mza	kynky, yea, i wanna try postfix and dovecot:-P use dyndns to deliver mail to my phone	00:08
zaheerm-lp	timeless, the media player has seeking	00:08
mza	prolly sounds crazy	00:08
timeless	zaheerm: the n900 was running the summit release	00:09
timeless	and the movies were recorded w/ the n900 camera app in video mode	00:09
timeless	each time i tried to seek, it just closed the movie	00:09
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javispedro	ah, gstreamer.	00:10
timeless	also, can someone tell me if there's a filed bug for the fact that calendar doesn't have a day picker that shows a molnth view?	00:11
realitygaps	qwerty12_N810: is the fbreader in extras-devel with the volume switch page turn patch?	00:11
zaheerm-lp	timeless, it works fine for me	00:11
timeless	if one wants to setup an event (or recurrence) one doesn't usually want to manually add 7 to the date	00:12
qwerty12_N810	realitygaps: Nope, just the one on qwerty12.qole.org	00:12
timeless	i searched and didn't find a calendar bug, but i'm sick/exhausted	00:12
qwerty12_N810	realitygaps: Not my work, so I can't just upload...	00:12
edgar2	timeless, how do you mean day picker that shows a month view?	00:12
realitygaps	qwerty12_N810: ah, just got offered an update so thought it might be. Read around 400 pages already thanks to that patch :)	00:12
timeless	gan: that movie isn't playing nicely	00:12
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, do you have python code to get iplayer programme details etc.?	00:12
GeneralAntilles	timeless, which?	00:13
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realitygaps	zaheerm-lp: nope ive been running get-iplayer and the cgi web interface in qoles chroot	00:13
timeless	edgar: most calendar apps let you see a grid w/ a month of days	00:13
realitygaps	zaheerm, the easy way not the right way	00:13
timeless	so you can say "ah, a week from friday" by finding friday and clicking the box below it	00:13
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, get-iplayer is perl right?	00:13
realitygaps	yep afaik	00:13
timeless	the calendar app has a month view	00:13
zaheerm-lp	ok so will need a little translation	00:13
timeless	but you can't use that from inside create event	00:14
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, the iphone/ipod touch iplayer videos should be fine with the dsp codecs in gstreamer on the n900	00:14
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zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, so the trick is to figure out the urls and handle the metadata	00:15
realitygaps	zaheerm, i can watch them in the media player (occasionally they crash but could be a bad dl) but no stream....	00:15
realitygaps	zaheerm, i can run it and give you the error if you like	00:15
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, please do	00:15
realitygaps	zaheerm, as the web interface attempts to open the media player... give me a coupla minutes just finishing up testing amsn and chatting with the dev on #amsn	00:16
zaheerm-lp	sure	00:16
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edgar2	i see, you were pointing at the lack overview when deciding the date of an event	00:16
timeless	edgar: again, it's also for picking an end date	00:17
edgar2	yeah, start date and end date	00:17
timeless	if it were obly a one time event thing	00:17
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edgar2	very useful for creating recurring events	00:17
timeless	the ui team could say "oh, just use the month view first"	00:18
timeless	but that's bogus for repeating events	00:18
realitygaps	zaheerm, the gpodder integration is great!	00:18
zaheerm	realitygaps, :)	00:18
timeless	can anyone trigger https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6228 ? i can't	00:18
povbot	Bug 6228: scandinavian letters (å, ä, ö) not recognized when keyboard-creating an event	00:18
edgar2	i filed that one.	00:19
timeless	but i'm using ukeyboard (one ver out of date) and an old os image	00:19
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edgar2	and can reproduce it still	00:21
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edgar2	fw 42-11 on a summit device	00:21
zaheerm	realitygaps, i'm not sure how well gpodder works with youtube atom feeds, but thp suggested adding it to zoutube so yah hopefully it does work well	00:21
timeless	edgar2: recruit confirmation here :)	00:21
qwerty12_N810	VDVsx: I (mis)read that as "MS Researcher" and jumped :p	00:22
VDVsx	qwerty12_N810, heheh	00:22
edgar2	so you're saying you can reproduce the bug 6228 (using the finnish-swedish keyboard layout)?	00:22
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6228 scandinavian letters (å, ä, ö) not recognized when keyboard-creating an event	00:22
realitygaps	zaheerm, ive subscribe to a couple of searches and they seem to been downloading ok	00:22
zaheerm	realitygaps, great	00:22
timeless	i'm saying it worksforme	00:22
VDVsx	qwerty12_N810, fyi MS$ PT loves me :P	00:22
realitygaps	zaheerm, getting iplayer.cgi up and running now	00:22
timeless	i get those chars	00:22
edgar2	even when you start an event?	00:23
qwerty12_N810	VDVsx: Wait until I send them a link to the Community Council Wiki page :p	00:23
edgar2	because that's when i don't. å ä ö gets recognized only after the event window has been created	00:23
VDVsx	qwerty12_N810, the funny thing it that I received a academy prize from them, that was funny :P	00:24
timeless	the nokia store in HEL is remodeling now	00:24
Shapeshifter	mhhh, how sweet is that. I'll be able to use nfs on my n900 right? Just like a real computer? right? right? :D overjoyed of that thought	00:24
edgar2	so note that when the event title is already visible, å ä ö input is ok.	00:24
edgar2	but not before.	00:25
qwerty12_N810	VDVsx: Hehe :P	00:25
realitygaps	zaheerm, any idea what resolution i should try stream at?	00:26
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realitygaps	zaheerm, and flv or mov?	00:27
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, how does it stream it?	00:27
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, over rtmp or http?	00:27
realitygaps	zaheerm, i think over http but im not sure	00:27
zaheerm-lp	the mp4 would be http	00:28
timeless	i think i broke image viewer	00:28
zaheerm-lp	what is streaming it, get_iplayer or bbc?	00:28
javispedro	ls	00:28
VDVsx	-la	00:28
javispedro	oh no, not stupid z-order again	00:28
javispedro	=)	00:28
realitygaps	zaheerm, get_iplayer is streaming it.. actually a browser error /var/tmp could not be saved because an unknown error occurred.	00:28
realitygaps	zaheerm, must have got the mediaplayer error a different way	00:29
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, ok not sure how get_iplayer works...	00:29
realitygaps	zaheerm, get_iplayer has a web pvr interface so im trying to click in the browser to stream it out	00:29
zaheerm-lp	just downloaded it to read	00:29
GeneralAntilles	realitygaps, find yourself a UPnP server?	00:29
* VDVsx suspects that the autobuilder is stuck :(		00:29
realitygaps	zaheerm, im running the get_iplayer.cgi for pvr functions - http://linuxcentre.net/getiplayer/get_iplayer-pvr-manager	00:30
realitygaps	GeneralAntilles: not sure i understand	00:30
zaheerm-lp	there is an n95_wifi iplayer profile	00:30
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GeneralAntilles	realitygaps, you're trying to stream media content to the tablet?	00:31
Shapeshifter	has anyone with an n900 tried running nfs on it and getting files from another box, as well as running the server to see the space on another box?	00:31
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realitygaps	GeneralAntilles: trying to stream live bbc tv (and recorded show streams) from the bbc iplayer website	00:31
realitygaps	zaheerm, using the iplayer.cgi, commands like mplayer -cache 1024 "http://localhost/iplayer?ACTION=stream&PROGTYPES=livetv&PID=<PID>&MODES=flashnormal&OUTTYPE=nnn.flv" should work	00:32
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, ok i see the --stream option that streams it to stdout, having a look at the code	00:32
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zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, so that should work also with gst-launch playbin uri="http://......." too	00:32
GeneralAntilles	realitygaps, ah, nevermind.	00:33
realitygaps	zaheerm, ok ill try that	00:33
zaheerm-lp	actually	00:33
zaheerm-lp	someone wrote a coherence backend for iplayer	00:33
zaheerm-lp	so that is one possibility	00:33
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Venomrush	n900 now available in USA	00:34
Venomrush	pre-orders pick up at flagship stores	00:34
zaheerm-lp	Venomrush, cool	00:34
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Shapeshifter	Venomrush: at least, that's what they say	00:34
Venomrush	Shapeshifter, people already picked theirs up, see http://2.gp/ege	00:35
dmj726	do those iplayer backends work in other countries?	00:35
zaheerm-lp	dmj726, no	00:35
Shapeshifter	Venomrush: no, they say they are going to pick it up, and I don't see any pictures.	00:35
zaheerm-lp	dmj726, they have geoip blocking	00:35
dmj726	n900 have tunneling capabilities?	00:36
SpeedEvil	ssh	00:36
kynky	yep	00:36
Venomrush	Shapeshifter, you'll see it soon enough in an hour or two once they get home..	00:36
kynky	its linux :)	00:36
Shapeshifter	Venomrush: I sure hope so ;)	00:36
qwerty12_N810	dmj726: It's your fault for being so stingy with Hulu	00:36
kynky	can go through a uk based vpn, and ppl from uk can use a usa vpn to get hulu	00:36
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qwerty12_N810	dmj726: So we have to be like that with iPlayer	00:37
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dmj726	Yeah...I never thought the whole geoip blocking made much actual sense.	00:37
zaheerm-lp	openvpn you can use	00:38
zaheerm-lp	iplayer is paid for by our tv licence feeds	00:38
kynky	dmj726, bbc is funded by uk tv license, apparantly some ppl dont think non license payers should get to see the content	00:38
Jaffa	dmj726: They don't claim it's secure; but it's enough to satisfy the rights holders.	00:38
zaheerm-lp	yanks don't pay for it :)	00:38
kynky	bbc has no adverts or product placement	00:39
dmj726	They're only promoting p2p	00:39
Jaffa	kynky: Also, in many cases (Heroes, other imported TV shows, background music etc.) the BBC doesn't have the rights to make them available outside the UK.	00:39
kynky	Jaffa, yep	00:39
Jaffa	dmj726: No, they promote iPlayer (or Hulu, or whatever). That many people can get around it isn't the point.	00:39
zaheerm-lp	Jaffa, btw are you the man behind the xml feeds at bleb ?	00:39
dmj726	note the wording actual sense...not legalese sense	00:39
Jaffa	zaheerm-lp: I am.	00:39
zaheerm-lp	Jaffa, cool, thx for the service!	00:40
Jaffa	dmj726: It makes actual sense, because without it they wouldn't be able to do it.	00:40
Jaffa	zaheerm-lp: np :)	00:40
realitygaps	zaheerm, seem to be getting passed empty streams, im gonna try some other url options	00:40
Jaffa	dmj726: It doesn't make technical sense, but makes legalese and actual sense :)	00:40
kynky	legal world is a whole different kettle of fish to real world	00:41
Jaffa	As is technical world :)	00:41
dmj726	I'm just saying that they're not blocking anyone. Lots of people in the states watch Dr Who...most through the only way they can, which is not iplayer or regular tv	00:41
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, so yah looks like i have a way in python to get the iplayer streams	00:41
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, so will give it a go this weekend	00:42
Jaffa	dmj726: So, what would you suggest? No GeoIP and then a) no one in the UK would be able to watch Heroes on iPlayer and everyone in the world could watch Doctor Who directly?	00:42
realitygaps	zaheerm, probably much easier, the get-iplayer way was just a quick hack	00:42
realitygaps	zaheerm, but i'd still like to figure out why it isnt working :)	00:42
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, mit licenced code too	00:42
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, so do i want to know	00:42
GeneralAntilles	dmj726, Netflix. ;)	00:42
kynky	zaheerm, if your talking about python, maybe you could look a the work of the xbmc iplayer plugin, that wriien in python ? works really well	00:42
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, i am sure we can fix it	00:42
realitygaps	im gonna try the same streams on my laptop to check them b4 gst-launching	00:43
Jaffa	dmj726: There's a difference between a perfect solution and a pragmatic one. They (and Hulu etc.) have gone for the pragmatic one.	00:43
zaheerm-lp	kynky, you have a link to the code, i thought that was a wrapper arounf get-iplayer	00:43
zaheerm-lp	realitygaps, try wget first yah :)	00:43
dmj726	I'm not saying it's possible for them to get around the current legal restrictions	00:43
kynky	zaheerm-lp, i could be wrong but worth checking i guess	00:43
dmj726	but it's still silly	00:43
realitygaps	zaheerm, yep thats my first thing to try	00:43
realitygaps	zaheerm, just all the amsn testing left me out of batteries and cant find the damn usb cable	00:44
dmj726	http://techdirt.com/articles/20091116/1358106957.shtml	00:44
zaheerm-lp	512x288 VP6@512Kbs, 640x360 H.264@800Kbs, 832x468 H.264@1500Kbs & 1280x720 H.264@3200Kbs	00:44
Jaffa	dmj726: I'm not sure I disagree; but changing the business model of the syndicated and worldwide distribution TV industry isn't going to happen overnight (or, probably, that soon).	00:44
zaheerm-lp	are the resolutions available	00:44
kynky	zaheerm-lp, http://code.google.com/p/xbmc-iplayerv2/source/checkout	00:44
zaheerm-lp	Jaffa, or anytime in the next few decades :) i work with the tv companies	00:45
Jaffa	zaheerm-lp: Poor you	00:45
dmj726	the above link is about how hulu has too many competing interests	00:45
Jaffa	zaheerm-lp: Don't suppose you've got any contacts at ITV?	00:45
Stskeeps	as long as ssh tunnels exist, i'm happy with the way how things work :P	00:45
zaheerm-lp	Jaffa, well we stream their content	00:45
Jaffa	zaheerm-lp: Ah, cool	00:45
zaheerm-lp	Jaffa, no, not itv	00:45
zaheerm-lp	Jaffa, mainly spanish media groups	00:45
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* Jaffa bingles bbcredux.com		00:45
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zaheerm-lp	Jaffa, i don't deal directly with them, our sales guys do...but we get all the requirements thrown at us. and i understand their attitudes	00:47
Shapeshifter	I get the feeling that the n900 is quite a success commercially.	00:47
kynky	and n900 not even final :)	00:48
Shapeshifter	I'm surprised so many not-really-geeks are so keen to get a hold of it	00:48
kynky	one more stage to go	00:48
Shapeshifter	Even I'm not 100% convinced by it.	00:48
javispedro	because they don't know what it is.	00:49
kynky	Shapeshifter, the flashy marketing of the droid/hd2/sex10/iphone 3gs has gotten to them	00:49
Shapeshifter	But then again only few things were ever able to convince me.	00:49
Shapeshifter	kynky: I was saying that I'm surprised that so many of them _are_ interested in it.	00:49
zaheerm-lp	kynky, thx for the link, looks promising	00:49
Shapeshifter	even without the marketing	00:49
Shapeshifter	word gor around it's awesome.	00:49
Shapeshifter	*got	00:49
Jaffa	Then again, having played with other platforms recently; I'm actually impressed by Maemo in terms of its competition as well as with its own previous revisions	00:49
javispedro	just read how every day somebody realises something about the n900 and makes a hubbub on tmo about it	00:49
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javispedro	today's dealbreaker: videocalling	00:50
Shapeshifter	javispedro: lol indeed	00:50
edgar2	+1	00:50
kynky	Shapeshifter, oh read it wrong, well n series is sposed to be nokia high end, lots of ppl like nokia, got big market share	00:50
Shapeshifter	mh	00:50
zaheerm-lp	javispedro, tomorrow's 3d holographic projection	00:50
Shapeshifter	I think the droid is really sexy. But android is so boring.	00:51
Shapeshifter	and the keyboard of course is shit.	00:51
zaheerm-lp	android sucks	00:51
fernando__	I wonder how that dude that reviewed maemo a while ago feels abotu the N900...	00:51
CoreFusion-	kynky: N-series is not nokia high-end, it's nokia's multimedia devices-line	00:51
fernando__	(unrelated)	00:51
kynky	droid kb really put me off, miht as well get the sex10 over that, also looks lke verizon have crippled the droid too much in usa	00:51
CoreFusion-	E-series is a another story	00:51
dmj726	CoreFusion-: ...what would be their high end?	00:51
kynky	thought e-series was buisness	00:52
zaheerm-lp	the e series handsets have better build than the n series ones	00:52
kynky	my friend just got e72	00:52
zaheerm-lp	my e71 was and still is a great phone	00:52
CoreFusion-	yes e-siers is business, but business high-end and multimedia high-end are not the same thing	00:52
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Shapeshifter	But still I'd say there are so many things wrong with the n900, and still people seem to like it. But yeah, javispedro's probably right, they don't know what it is.	00:53
CoreFusion-	s/siers/series	00:53
* qwerty12_N810 would take the E90's keyboard over the N900's one anyday =)		00:53
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zaheerm-lp	i'd take the e71's keyboard too	00:53
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zaheerm-lp	but it'd make one huge phone then	00:53
Shapeshifter	I liked the HTC touch pro 2 keyboard.	00:53
Shapeshifter	clicky keys that are far apart.	00:53
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gouverneur	hello...	00:53
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Shapeshifter	if the htc touch pro 2 had android, I'd have bought it at the time it came out.	00:54
javispedro	hi...	00:54
kynky	htc tp2 runs wino so instant fail :) (currently own a htc tp1)	00:54
gouverneur	does anyone know the file location for contacts? I'm just searching the dev stuff but cant find the location	00:54
kynky	my tp1 can run android	00:54
Jaffa	gouverneur: /home/user/.osso_abook/contacts.db IIRC	00:55
kynky	wino=winmo	00:55
Shapeshifter	kynky: yep.	00:55
Jaffa	gouverneur: But don't touch it directly; use the APIs	00:55
gouverneur	I dont want to touch the one on the device, I want to export it and use it for something else (my landline phone does support upload...)	00:56
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Jaffa	gouverneur: You can export one, many or all contacts from the device in Contacts as vCard 2.1 or vCard 3.0	00:57
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gouverneur	in which format is it stored on the device?	00:57
realitygaps_brb	zaheerm, get-iplayer.cgi isnt streaming on my desktop either so its likely not a maemo issue...	00:58
Jaffa	gouverneur: It's Evolution Data Store. A Berkeley DB AFAICT (well, that's what file(1) said ;-))	00:58
gouverneur	ah Evo..	00:58
zaheerm	realitygaps, ok i am getting some success playing with the xbmc iplayer code, so will probably use that as a base	00:58
gouverneur	ok	00:58
gouverneur	thx	00:58
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zaheerm	i think the 640x360 h264 should work on the n900	00:59
realitygaps_brb	zaheerm, once i get a working url on the desktop ill try it on the n900	01:00
gouverneur	why is it so hard to find stuff?	01:00
kynky	zaheerm, when i get n900 will be trying to multimedia development using haskell. think your doing well good multimedia work, hope that iplayer stuff helps.	01:00
zaheerm	realitygaps_brb, ok cool, i'm going to sleep	01:00
realitygaps_brb	zaheerm, sleep well.. ill let you know if i figure anything out	01:01
zaheerm	kynky, using haskell gst bindings?	01:01
zaheerm	realitygaps_brb, thx	01:01
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pnik64	gleetings	01:01
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GeneralAntilles	zaheerm, it does.	01:02
kynky	haskell has ffmpeg bindings, but from what ppl have said using gstreamer could be better because of using the dsp via its plugin architecture, wasnt sure if i could get haskell gst plugins working, but no harm in trying i guess	01:02
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zaheerm-lp	kynky, feel free to ask in #gstreamer	01:02
kynky	will do, but before i do, want to make sure i can get the basics done first on device	01:04
Shapeshifter	mhhhh. if I remove the scratchbox dir there seem to be lots of symlinks to lots of stuff	01:04
Shapeshifter	I can't just rm that. Will something break if I rm that stuff as root?	01:04
Shapeshifter	or... how do I get rid of all that.	01:04
javispedro	did you do /etc/init.d/scratchbox-core stop _before_ starting to rm things?	01:05
javispedro	or sbox_ctl stop	01:05
GeneralAntilles	Shapeshifter, if you just remove the scratchbox dir, bad things will happen.	01:06
GeneralAntilles	Follow the installation instructions.	01:06
Shapeshifter	javispedro: mh, well, I had two scratchbox installations, and I want to remove the old one, which I didn't "sbox_ctl start" for a long time	01:06
GeneralAntilles	Er	01:06
GeneralAntilles	removal instructions	01:06
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Shapeshifter	phew. glad I didn't do that as root.	01:07
Shapeshifter	that would really have sucked I think.	01:08
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Shapeshifter	but there isn't really anything about uninstalling on the wiki. /scratchbox/sbin/sbox_ctl stop - I did that, and then apt-get remove scratchbox-* --purge - which isn't applicable as I don't use apt.	01:09
Shapeshifter	rm -rf /scratchbox	01:09
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Shapeshifter	which I am a bit scared of.	01:09
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* pnik64 want undo key		01:10
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* Shapeshifter is not sure if deleting a symlink just by doing rm will delete the target or just the symlink...		01:11
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: what system are you working on as apt isnt your tool?	01:11
Shapeshifter	gouverneur: archlinux.	01:12
mzz	"rm" will kill the symlink, but be careful to omit the trailing "/" if it is a symlink to a directory.	01:12
gouverneur	will delet the symlink	01:12
Shapeshifter	mzz: what if I do rm -R	01:12
lcukn900	eeeeeeeeeeeeevil deletions. never delete just rename lol	01:12
* qwerty12_N810 waves at lcukn900		01:12
* javispedro has /home in an external partition just for when those paranoid thoughs arise		01:13
Shapeshifter	damn.... I shouldn't have installed scratchbox in my home dir -.-	01:13
javispedro	mount -o remount,ro /home and rm -r everything	01:13
lcukn900	hiya qwerty	01:13
lcukn900	and javis	01:13
javispedro	hi lcuk	01:13
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: pacman -Rn package	01:13
Shapeshifter	javispedro: but where do the scratchbox symlinks point to? They point at just about everything in my system. What, remount,ro and rm? how would I be able to rm from a ro partition?	01:14
gouverneur	is similar to apt with --purge	01:14
javispedro	Shapeshifter: of course, I did not consider you installed sbox to your $HOME	01:14
Shapeshifter	gouverneur: right, I know how to use pacman. but I didn't install the maemo sdk using pacman obviously.	01:14
lcukn900	nuke it from orbit, thats what i almost did	01:14
Shapeshifter	how bothersome.	01:15
javispedro	Shapeshifter: just backup important things and do it. Theoretically it shouldn't erase anything. However, knowing myself, paranoid thoughs can't be removed so easily.	01:15
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lcukn900	just be careful and tell your neighbours before you delete.m	01:16
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* Shapeshifter is scared		01:16
lcukn900	one stray / and their home dirs go too	01:16
Shapeshifter	this is horrible, I don't know what to do xD	01:17
Shapeshifter	hasn't happened to me in a long time	01:17
lcukn900	hey qwerty, i did the underground!	01:17
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: remove is an alias for unlink and wont follow symlinks rmdir on a $symlink/ will give you an error	01:17
lcukn900	lol shapeshifter, do you need a windows disk to reformat :p	01:18
qwerty12_N810	lcukn900: hehe. Stupid District line wasn't running Eastbound this morning	01:18
lcukn900	yikes	01:18
lcukn900	i did about 4 stops. im a pro now	01:18
lcukn900	tho if i ever have to change lines im bolloxd	01:19
Shapeshifter	gouverneur: so, I have the scratchbox dir somewhere in my homefolder. Now if I do rm -R ./scratchbox from its parent dir as root, that wont do anything bad?	01:19
zaheerm-lp	talking about the tube i started an app that showed live depature boards	01:19
zaheerm-lp	s/showed/shows/	01:19
infobot	zaheerm-lp meant: talking about the tube i started an app that shows live depature boards	01:19
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: should not	01:20
lcukn900	i just had a pepermap	01:20
gouverneur	try it if you dont trust	01:20
zaheerm-lp	i like the realtime ability to see realtime when the trains are going to get to the station, so i can choose which station to walk to :)	01:21
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gouverneur	mkdir test\|\|ln -s test/ testdir\|\|touch test/testfile\|\|rm -R ./testdir	01:21
zerojay	http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=382999&postcount=1	01:21
zaheerm-lp	anyways really going to sleep	01:21
gouverneur	f** try && instead of \|\| im to tired	01:21
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Venomrush	any UK users here?	01:22
gouverneur	mkdir test && ln -s test/ testdir && touch test/testfile && rm -rf ./testdir	01:22
Shapeshifter	gouverneur: I understand	01:22
zaheerm-lp	Venomrush, yah but off to sleep	01:22
lcukn900	venom why	01:22
gouverneur	chemist@10:07 PM gwendoline:~$ mkdir test && ln -s test/ testdir && touch test/testfile && rm -rf ./testdir	01:23
Venomrush	apparently they're shipping on the 8th	01:23
gouverneur	chemist@12:22 AM gwendoline:~$ ls test	01:23
Venomrush	opps	01:23
gouverneur	testfile	01:23
Venomrush	3rd	01:23
Shapeshifter	gouverneur: yeah, I tried already.	01:23
Venomrush	i'm out of the country on the 8th	01:23
Shapeshifter	I think I'll backup first though.	01:23
Shapeshifter	kind of a bother because I just want to cp -a myhomedir backupdrive	01:23
gouverneur	;)	01:23
Shapeshifter	but now there's a scratchbox in my homedir. But I think as cp -a also does -d, it should not follow symlinks, right?	01:23
gouverneur	so scared?	01:24
Jaffa	zerojay: Ovi is ridiculous. Hopefully most developers will focus on Extras (once the QA process improvements are implemented)	01:24
Shapeshifter	-d is -d same as --no-dereference --preserve=links	01:24
Shapeshifter	right?	01:24
Shapeshifter	so it will keep the links, but not follow them.	01:24
Shapeshifter	even if I did cp -a.	01:24
gouverneur	yes	01:24
gouverneur	you can even hardlink	01:25
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Shapeshifter	this is like cutting wires on a bomb	01:27
gouverneur	hardlinkin is much faster and you never loose	01:28
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qwerty12_N810	If Nokia can't even get Ovi right, then [Nokia] please stop insulting us with the Ovi store being on the first tier of the menu	01:29
lcukn900	BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM	01:29
qwerty12_N810	+store	01:29
Shapeshifter	lcukn900: I'm still not cutting anything	01:30
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: 30seconds left HURY or you gonna BLOW!	01:30
Shapeshifter	xD	01:30
lcukn900	TOO LATE, EXPLOSION TOOK OUT MY CAPS LOCK KEY	01:30
gouverneur	ln home/ backuphome	01:30
qwerty12_N810	lcukn900: Hold shift	01:30
GAN900	qwerty12, amen.	01:31
javispedro	Shapeshifter: rm -rfv , fingers near ctrl+c and go on for the sake of god.	01:31
gouverneur	javispedro: I second that	01:31
* Shapeshifter is reading about how to use rsync or tar to copy directory trees while exculding specific subdirs		01:31
Shapeshifter	so I can just backup the stuff but ignore the scratchbox dir.	01:32
* gouverneur slaps Shapeshifter with a HARDLINK		01:32
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lcukn900	what does rootsh package do	01:34
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: cd / && ln home/ backuphome && ls backuphome	01:34
gouverneur	lcukn900: gives you root	01:34
lcukn900	no it doesnt	01:34
gouverneur	hmm	01:34
Shapeshifter	gouverneur: but what good is that?	01:34
lcukn900	it sets some flags/setting	01:34
GAN900	zerojay, that'd be hilarious if it weren't so sad	01:34
lcukn900	whic	01:34
GAN900	Nokia is pretty incompetent.	01:35
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: http://www.brunolinux.com/02-The_Terminal/Hardlinks_and_Symlinks.html	01:35
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gouverneur	if you now delete the target the link still holds the nodes on your harddisk	01:36
Shapeshifter	gouverneur: ah I get it. the file will not get deleted before not all references (files) to it have been deleted	01:36
javispedro	I guess Ovi Store being totally and utterly useless was the reason of maemo.org Extras	01:36
Shapeshifter	mh yes.	01:36
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javispedro	s/guess/though	01:36
Shapeshifter	I guess that's pretty safe.	01:36
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gouverneur	Shapeshifter: as long as all links are set so make shure backuphome is containing your home!	01:37
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gouverneur	well do your rm -rf ./Scratchbox in your home ... but this does not prevent you from stuff following your symlinks so doesnt the backup with cp -a	01:38
Shapeshifter	meanwhile, I've decided that scratchbox is evil.	01:39
gouverneur	but as I said remove is an alias for unlink	01:39
gouverneur	yes it eats children and little puppies	01:39
GAN900	Extras was around way before Ovi was even a gleem.	01:39
pnik64	i am happy there is a way to sell apps	01:41
pnik64	whether people make use of it, duno	01:41
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javispedro	yeah, that was badly worded.	01:41
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gouverneur	pnik64: well people cant!	01:42
lcukn900	gan i think ovi even predates windows	01:42
gouverneur	or did that change the last 24hours?	01:42
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pnik64	i can't understand, are these jokes?	01:42
gouverneur	there is still no linux pc-suite	01:42
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lcukn900	ovi wasnt a joke when i encountered it	01:43
qwerty12_N810	lcukn900: One thing is for sure: Your finger got owned by it	01:43
gouverneur	pnik64: no, ovi store rejected a single person as he is no real company	01:43
lcukn900	lol	01:43
lcukn900	ovi rejected me too	01:44
pnik64	what, random person cant sell thru ovi?	01:44
gouverneur	no	01:44
lcukn900	bbiab hunting for food	01:44
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pnik64	oh lol	01:45
pnik64	nevermind	01:45
pnik64	ovi cant release our stuff	01:45
pnik64	they will soon be criminally liable if there's a copyright infringement	01:45
pnik64	again government raises a barrier to entry	01:45
pnik64	you see it in front of you	01:45
CoreFusion-	I think that's Nokia's way to prevent useless software (just take a look at iPhone's app-store)	01:45
qwerty12_N810	Man, looking at the requirements needed for getting a job with Nokia, you'd think that they'd have intelligent people working for them	01:46
pnik64	dumb comment, qwerty12_N810 :)	01:46
gouverneur	thats the people working... not those deciding	01:46
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qwerty12_N810	pnik64: Ovi Store policy. Need I say more?	01:46
gouverneur	thats a huge difference	01:47
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: did it work?	01:47
gouverneur	did it blow?	01:47
Shapeshifter	gouverneur: I'm still reluctant to do anything. I'm cleaning up other parts of my /home first xD	01:47
Shapeshifter	and then I'll rsync excluding the scratchbox dirs.	01:47
gouverneur	lol	01:47
Shapeshifter	When that is backed up, I'll try rm -rf scratchbox as root.	01:48
gouverneur	seems to be the long way but more secure ;)	01:48
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Shapeshifter	gouverneur: yeah. I'd really hate to lose data. Though I have a backup mirrored twice, but it's a few months old	01:49
Shapeshifter	If I do backups, I usually have more then one of them, but I do them not frequently enough :\|	01:49
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Shapeshifter	lol seems a bit like the NYC really got a device. The forums are totally bananas about it.	01:51
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javispedro	ah, hopefully eternal september will end soon then.	01:53
pnik64	heheh	01:53
pnik64	a lot of stuff feels like slow motion now	01:53
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dmj726	I don't think it will end	01:55
dmj726	unless it was like the time when the internet got rid of all the ID10T errors.	01:56
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gouverneur	pnik64: ovi store requires $1M corporate general liability insurance, new post about it...	02:01
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Shapeshifter	http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=383098&postcount=77 lol the internet is a funny place. 188 people in that thread, now wittnessed about one of the very first retail n900 owners (who paid for it)	02:01
pnik64	right, check the recent secret meeting in south korea	02:01
Shapeshifter	I hear fanfares	02:01
Shapeshifter	taataaadaaaa	02:01
javispedro	...	02:02
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pnik64	wow	02:04
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pnik64	nice Shapeshifter	02:04
Shapeshifter	pnik64: that's not me	02:06
Shapeshifter	pnik64: I'm just saying, it's kinda funny that there are almost 200 people hitting F5 or ctrl-r every 10 seconds waiting for some guy in NYC to post a picture of his n900	02:07
pnik64	oh	02:07
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gouverneur	I guess the retailers will ship to monday	02:10
gouverneur	nokia flagship stores isnt realy a retailers address	02:10
nomis	Shapeshifter: what? Where is the page I have to hit F5 on? :)	02:13
Shapeshifter	nomis: posted it above	02:13
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nomis	awesome! ;-P	02:14
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Shapeshifter	yay figured out the rsync command to back up my stuff without touching the scratchbox dirs	02:20
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* timeless_mbp cries		02:22
* timeless_mbp found a couple more stupid xref errors		02:22
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pupnik	after irssi nothing else is fun	02:25
javispedro	ah	02:25
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javispedro	now I know who pnik64 was ;)	02:25
Proteous	irssi ftw	02:26
pupnik	o/	02:26
javispedro	well, going to bed now. hopefully tomorrow oct2009ers will not have overriden tmo main defenses	02:27
Shapeshifter	yay. rm -vR scratchbox and I'm still here	02:27
Shapeshifter	any clues what would happen if I was to move the final sdk scratchbox dir to opt?	02:28
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dmj726	perhaps we need to hide tmo from the normals by only allowing access via ip address	02:28
Shapeshifter	mh. I'll just try cp.	02:28
javispedro	cats and dogs living together.	02:28
dmj726	(not actual suggestion!)	02:29
javispedro	see you	02:29
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dmj726	we want to be found generally speaking	02:29
dmj726	:)	02:29
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Venomrush	forum is going crazy	02:38
Venomrush	guys managed to get n900 posting pic up	02:38
Venomrush	and the swearing cursing nokia starts	02:38
Venomrush	lol	02:38
Venomrush	http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=383145&postcount=95	02:38
GeneralAntilles	Talk is a cesspit.	02:38
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Shapeshifter	mh. how big is scratchbox anyway... seems like it's huge	02:40
Shapeshifter	well... if I cp a symlink, the target wont be copied as well, right?	02:40
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Shapeshifter	but what about a du -sh? does du follow symlinks and add that to the total size?	02:41
GeneralAntilles	It's Maemo + development stuff + documentation + cross compilation stuff	02:41
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GeneralAntilles	So, a couple of gigabytes.	02:41
GeneralAntilles	A large portion of which is docs.	02:41
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kalikianatoli	Shapeshifter, around 2gb is normal, depending on what you install it can be bigger	02:41
kalikianatoli	hm... I think Thunar is trying to fool me: it says my 8gb sbox partition contains 21gb of data	02:42
Shapeshifter	kalikianatoli: well, that's what I'm saying, I think it follows symlinks.	02:43
Shapeshifter	not sure if du -sh does. And even more unsure if cp does follow them. I don't get it.	02:43
Shapeshifter	[1] shapeshifter@Tachychineta> du -sh /home/shapeshifter/stuff/maemofinal	02:43
Shapeshifter	2.5G/home/shapeshifter/stuff/maemofinal	02:43
kalikianatoli	that sounds like a normal size	02:43
Shapeshifter	du -sh /mnt/space/maemo	02:43
Shapeshifter	3.7G/mnt/space/maemo	02:43
kalikianatoli	your value might actually be correct	02:43
kalikianatoli	let me check here	02:44
Shapeshifter	but, the above is during a cp from the first to the second	02:44
Shapeshifter	the cp is still going on	02:44
Shapeshifter	and the target is already 3.7	02:44
Shapeshifter	while the source is 2.5	02:44
kalikianatoli	4,5GB here with du -sh	02:44
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kalikianatoli	iirc a fresh copy of sbox was 1, something gb	02:45
Shapeshifter	this is really weird. I did 'cp -R /home/shapeshifter/stuff/maemofinal /mnt/space/maemo' and now the target has 4.4G while the source has 2.5	02:45
Shapeshifter	I think I should have used cp -a	02:45
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* Shapeshifter tries again with cp -a		02:46
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pupnik	http://europe.nokia.com/search?qt=maemo&GO.y=0&GO.x=0&GO=GO does europe.nokia.com not know maemo?	02:46
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pupnik	what does -a do, archive and de-symlinks?	02:47
pupnik	i am trying to log into the darn sdk page	02:47
Shapeshifter	pupnik: same as -dR --preserve=all	02:47
pupnik	ty i forgot that	02:48
lcukn900	qt=maemo returns no result because maemo=qt+gtk+awesome	02:49
Shapeshifter	lcukn900: lol nice comment in the NYC thread	02:50
GeneralAntilles	pupnik?	02:52
GeneralAntilles	http://tablets-dev.nokia.com ?	02:52
lcukn900	lol	02:53
kalikianatoli	haha, qt=maemo is a nice one	02:55
kalikianatoli	let's start pondering whether the server admin likes qt	02:55
lcukn900	arghhhh greasy chicken fingers on my n900 screen	02:57
* kalikianatoli has nails :P		02:58
Proteous	no one to blame but youself	02:58
GeneralAntilles	Woo, nails!	02:59
Robot101	lcukn900: use the stylus? :)	03:00
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lcukn900	lol robot101 its too late for that	03:02
pupnik	GeneralAntilles: just wanted to log onto some nokia forum anhd ended up there	03:03
pupnik	so i searched for maemo aynd founs zarro	03:03
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pupnik	perhaps that forum is not active	03:04
pupnik	maybe a maemo topic	03:05
pupnik	...	03:05
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pupnik	god bless all good souls who help open source	03:11
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pupnik	newest firmware scrolling is more responsive feeling	03:15
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pupnik	but maybe flick speed was just increased, not actual refresh rate	03:16
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pupnik	i just thought of a way to maybe cheaply implement a notch filter	03:21
pupnik	i dint think ove read it	03:21
lcukn900	pupnik cool. whats a notch filter	03:22
pupnik	would take only a few instructions per sample	03:22
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kalikianatoli	does a notch filter protect the device from scratches?	03:23
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pupnik	audio term, cut out a notch in the frequency response	03:23
pupnik	to counter feedback or case resonances	03:23
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pupnik	heh	03:23
pupnik	well how would you naively reduce response at 300 hz?	03:24
lcukn900	anyone got the viaspy link for tmo	03:24
pupnik	<ot me	03:25
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Ronaldo38741	How do I make the N810's keyboard not auto-capitalize sentences?	03:59
GeneralAntilles	Open the control panel and turn off autocapitalization?	04:00
kalikianatoli	too easy	04:00
Ronaldo38741	Would it be better if I asked a question no-one could answer?	04:00
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kalikianatoli	yes, please. we love the challenge :)	04:02
Ronaldo38741	Which came first, the chicken or the egg?	04:04
Ronaldo38741	In other news, where in the control panel?	04:04
GeneralAntilles	In the application menu?	04:04
Ronaldo38741	"Text input settings" has no sucn option	04:04
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Ronaldo38741	*such	04:04
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GeneralAntilles	It may in one of the dialogs farther down	04:05
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Ronaldo38741	Only one below it is "Panels"	04:05
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GeneralAntilles	Under the dictionaries tab	04:05
GeneralAntilles	Settings	04:05
Ronaldo38741	Dictionaries tab?	04:06
GeneralAntilles	In text input settings	04:06
GeneralAntilles	It may be called something lese	04:06
GeneralAntilles	else	04:06
GeneralAntilles	I have an aftermarket string set.	04:06
GeneralAntilles	But the tab in text input settings that have the dictionaries.	04:06
Ronaldo38741	Ok, thanks	04:07
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thephilosopher	so	04:12
thephilosopher	who got the first n90 ?	04:13
thephilosopher	n900	04:13
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GeneralAntilles	People who got prototypes months and months ago?	04:14
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GeneralAntilles	It's amazing how telepathy-haze can't manage to stay connected to AIM for more than an hour at a time.	04:24
jaska	hazy telepathy	04:26
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aep	can the "end of november" delivery date be trusted?	04:27
aep	actually i already know the answer, it's no.	04:27
GeneralAntilles	aep, well, some people got them at retail.	04:32
GeneralAntilles	Supposedly shipping will start tomorrow or early next week for Nokia pre-orders.	04:32
GeneralAntilles	jaska, just calling it by the package name.	04:32
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thephilosopher	i thnk i am just gonna get a droid	04:34
thephilosopher	droid does lol	04:35
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microlith	that'll be nice	04:37
thephilosopher	?	04:37
aep	"it does lol" ?	04:38
microlith	shipping starting tomorrow or early next week	04:38
thephilosopher	still	04:38
thephilosopher	aep: yep and cofee too	04:38
aep	oh well THAT is a point	04:38
simula_	i just talked to a sales rep from nokia and early pre-order buyers will need to call up nokia sales because there is a problem with the headset	04:38
microlith	simula_: yes, did that the other day myself	04:39
simula_	cool	04:39
aep	the headset? heh. who cares?	04:39
aep	they suck anyway	04:39
simula_	aep... they will hold your order	04:39
aep	i didnt preorder yet	04:39
simula_	ahhh heh	04:39
aep	i'm still not sure where to order. US or UK	04:39
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aep	due to the silly keybaord i cant order a german one anyway	04:39
thephilosopher	US cheaper	04:39
aep	yeah but later too	04:40
thephilosopher	aep: j max 2 weeks	04:40
aep	hmm	04:40
asdm	I know im a newb and i dont wanna piss anyone off so(usally i dont know the rules on asking for help and stuff and people get pissed), how can i ask for some help ?	04:40
thephilosopher	asdm: go head	04:41
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aep	you just do it. like "hello, i have a problem with X doing Y but i expect Z"	04:41
asdm	I have a N770 I enabled usb host mode and installed Carman app and i plugged in the USB OBD reader to the N770 its registers at address5 but i think the porgram only reads bluetooth devices	04:42
aep	and people just answer. its that easy :D	04:42
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thephilosopher	what do you guys think of amazon	04:42
asdm	is there a way i can make the usb look like a bluetooth device to n770, thanks aep	04:42
thephilosopher	will we get the device before janury ?	04:42
aep	asdm: i have no idea. but maybe someone else does. just stick around and reask if no one responds in an hour or so	04:42
asdm	aep: ok, thnx	04:43
aep	thephilosopher: i dunno. would be interested too	04:43
aep	amazon is $50 cheaper	04:43
thephilosopher	actually 150 % cheaper compared to nokiausa	04:44
aep	but 3 months waiting is not worth $50	04:44
aep	lol, huh?	04:44
thephilosopher	?	04:44
aep	it says $600	04:44
aep	and nokiausa says $649	04:44
microlith	my re-ordered preorder totaled just a couple dollars over $600	04:45
aep	err wrong. amazon is $559.99	04:45
thephilosopher	ho yea	04:45
thephilosopher	counted the mail-rebate	04:45
aep	whatever rebate you have, i'm sure its not 150%	04:45
aep	except math in your country works different	04:45
microlith	if it were 150% cheaper, they'd be paying you	04:46
thephilosopher	lol	04:46
thephilosopher	i meant 150 $	04:46
aep	ah lol	04:46
Ronaldo38741	$300 and a N900? Sounds good	04:46
dmj726	http://www.boingboing.net/2009/11/19/breaking-leaked-uk-g.html	04:47
Ronaldo38741	Old news	04:48
aep	heh UK still not done with it?	04:48
aep	weird country	04:48
dmj726	from today...this is miore than 3 strikes	04:48
dmj726	*more	04:48
aep	at least they have sane n900 layouts	04:48
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kalikianatoli	nokiausa reads like nausea, was that intentional? :-]	04:50
aep	heh	04:50
aep	i bet!	04:50
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kalikianatoli	I can only agree about the layout. I'm infinitly happy to have the English layout, even though I needed to adapt to the y/z	04:51
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aep	aww, now that you mention that.. thats something i didnt think of	04:51
aep	maybe i can scratch the labels of and make new ones D:	04:52
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kalikianatoli	For me it was a matter of using it for a while. I mean, almost all keys are somehow different than on a big keyboard	04:53
kalikianatoli	So it's not like that's the one making the difference	04:53
aep	hmh true	04:53
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kalikianatoli	Then again, you can switch the layout in the settings. But I don't know where to get new labels	04:54
aep	from your favorite chinese parts supply	04:55
* aep hides		04:55
kalikianatoli	heh	04:55
aep	thats where i get all my nokia parts from since nokia refuses to sell parts at an acceptable price	04:56
aep	(130€ for a new E51 LCD is ripof. the entire device is just 200)	04:56
kalikianatoli	or you grab them off ebay or another place with broken devices ;)	04:57
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asdm	anyone try shopping at dealextreme ?	04:58
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Guest83958	I get this error everytime I try apt-get update in ARMEL target in scratchbox. /scratchbox/tools/bin/misc_runner: SBOX_CPUTRANSPARENCY_METHOD not set	05:54
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Guest83958	How do I solve the SBOX_CPUTRANSPARENCY_METHOD not set problem? I keep getting that error	06:08
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* RST38h laughs at Ovi thread		07:53
RST38h	People discussing creation of a corporate entity that would let them submit content to Ovi	07:53
RST38h	Nobody is even considering the most logical solution	07:53
derf	We could call this corporate entity "Nokia".	07:54
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derf	If it's not already taken.	07:54
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RST38h	Nokla, yes	07:58
RST38h	Not yet taken although certain Chinese will be offended	07:58
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dmj726	http://www.forum.nokia.com/document/Get_started_with_Maemo_5/ in slide 4 the announcer pronounces GNOME like genome	08:21
RST38h	And?	08:21
dmj726	first time I've heard it pronounced that way...	08:22
dmj726	as in ge as in gene, rather than G as in GNU	08:22
dmj726	or just silent	08:22
RST38h	Maybe nobody told him how it is supposed to sound? =)	08:23
dmj726	normally I don't care that much about silent vs hard g but the soft g could be confusing	08:23
dmj726	her actually	08:23
RST38h	Ahhha, Brin started wearing black turtlenecks Jobs-style	08:23
dmj726	I'm sure that it was a simple mistake of not having been told the pronunciation	08:24
RST38h	And he is using Droid	08:24
RST38h	Somebody send Brin an N900 =)	08:24
luke-jr	dmj726: at least he didn't try to make it silent.	08:25
luke-jr	pretty sure it's explicitly NOT supposed to be silent	08:25
dmj726	yeah, though a silent g would actually be what most native linux users would expect on seeing that word the first time.	08:25
dmj726	/s/linux users/English speakers	08:26
RST38h	dmj726: only if your native language is English	08:26
RST38h	Because when I see "g" I say "g" :)	08:26
pwnguin	guh-nome sounds stupid anyways	08:27
pwnguin	RST38h: avoid french then	08:27
* RST38h managed to follow this advice so far		08:27
dmj726	that's normally true for native speakers but there is an english word gnome that's pronounced nome	08:27
RST38h	"nom", not "nome", right? ;)	08:28
dmj726	yeah	08:28
pwnguin	nom nom	08:28
dmj726	long o	08:28
dmj726	as in Rome	08:28
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RST38h	See what I mean? Absolutely no correspondence between spelling and pronounciation :)	08:28
dmj726	yeah	08:28
pwnguin	throw in an umlaut	08:28
luke-jr	XD	08:28
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dmj726	most English words do follow the rules, but there are tons of exceptions	08:29
RST38h	Every fucking word is pretty much a hieroglyph	08:29
RST38h	dmj726: AmigaOS had that speak: device that read text aloud	08:29
RST38h	dmj726: It used a database of rules. Still read with latino accent though =)	08:30
pwnguin	we have festival	08:30
dmj726	that's because it's your female friend	08:30
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dmj726	...Amiga	08:31
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luke-jr	Festival's default voice kinda sucks	08:40
ShadowJK	would native english speaker hear difference between gnom and genom	08:41
dmj726	gnom being with a hard g?	08:41
dmj726	Native English speakers can easily hear both hard and soft Gs.	08:42
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dmj726	the word gnome, however, generally has a silent g unless it refers to the free software project instead of little dwarfs	08:43
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ShadowJK	Well whether gnom with hard g would be heard as genom	08:48
RST38h	no	08:48
dmj726	nope, very different than genom, which has the soft g	08:48
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microlith	Genom?	08:57
* microlith is assaulted by boomers		08:57
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* CoreFusion- is awake, again		09:01
* CoreFusion- is starting his day with Battle without honor or humanity		09:03
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* microlith tries to recall what that's from		09:04
CoreFusion-	it's the kill bill theme :P	09:04
microlith	ok	09:04
CoreFusion-	I find it refreshing	09:05
microlith	movie soundtracks arne't a large part of my collection	09:05
microlith	aren't*	09:05
CoreFusion-	http://open.spotify.com/track/6Q32Vkucx2qeuVyBd3NiFZ	09:05
CoreFusion-	or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eG2_kpSYxXI	09:06
microlith	heh, ty	09:07
* Khertan is listening Gardian of Asguard		09:08
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dmj726	esbox garage site is down	09:14
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CoreFusion-	Khertan: You mean Guardians of Asgaard?	09:18
Khertan	yes ... :)	09:18
Khertan	just writing it from memory	09:18
CoreFusion-	Not for me :/	09:18
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dmj726	I've decided to try esbox, but am not having luck finding the documentation for it	09:42
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dmj726	nevermind...found via google cache	09:52
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timeless_mbp	:(	09:56
timeless_mbp	my n900 killed itself while i was trying to read mail	09:56
dmj726	:(	09:56
Stskeeps	:(	09:56
Stskeeps	browser or modest? :P	09:57
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dmj726	define kill	09:57
auenf	shotgun, noose or locked itself in the car with a hose from the exhaust into the cabin?	09:57
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dmj726	...what email messages were you subjecting it too?!? =-O	10:01
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Stskeeps	maemo bugtracker would definately make a n900 off itself	10:02
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Jaffa	Morning, all	10:05
Stskeeps	morning jaffa	10:05
Jaffa	Stskeeps: Did you have any thoughts on MWN idea?	10:05
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Stskeeps	Jaffa: reddit for tmo posts and events? :P	10:08
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Khertan	someone know a backup software that work on ubuntu ...	10:14
Khertan	making backup on ftp	10:15
Khertan	i ve try Simple Backup ... but is so simple that backup are unusable	10:15
Myrtti	rsync over ftp	10:16
bigbrovar	Khertan: Lucky backup has both a qt and a gtk frontend http://luckybackup.sourceforge.net/download.html	10:17
bigbrovar	Khertan: and it works really well, although it doesnt support backup over the network ( at least the lasttime i checked )	10:18
Khertan	Myrtti: ... hum ... does rsync really support ftp ... ?	10:18
bigbrovar	Khertan: you can always get round the problem by mounted using nfs to mount ur remote back location	10:19
Khertan	luckybackup <<< doesn't support ftp	10:19
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Myrtti	Khertan: I'd be surprised if it doesn't	10:20
Dieterbe	hi guys. i feel pretty silly, but i can't figure out how to remove a song from the current playlist in the n900 (preproduction) media player (yeah, haven't flashed yet..)	10:20
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Myrtti	though I'd rather chop my left hand off than use ftp if ssh is available	10:21
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Khertan	Myrtti: ssh isn't :)	10:22
dmj726	The Maemo 5 getting started development tutorial is pretty well done (pronunciation aside)	10:22
Myrtti	and if you don't have ssh available, I'd chage host	10:22
Khertan	Myrtti: i m apt-get it ... so i ll try	10:22
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Khertan	Myrtti: it s a special device	10:22
Myrtti	usage of ftp for backups is ...	10:22
dmj726	I could see it being a very good intro for new devs	10:22
Myrtti	cough	10:22
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Khertan	luckybackup have an horrible interface	10:24
Khertan	ouch	10:24
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bigbrovar	Khertan: am sure if you drop some $ in donation. It would help the project .. better still you can also make a mockup, or write you suggestions on what to the developers :)	10:26
Khertan	bigbrovar: or write my own ... and make a port for maemo too	10:26
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rrr__	is there any ftp client on maemo yet?	10:27
bigbrovar	Khertan: yeah that too, although its often better to support an existing project than to start yet another one.. we haev too many orphaned project already	10:27
Stskeeps	rrr__: gftp? :P	10:28
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rrr__	oh hey thanks i must be blind :p	10:29
Khertan	bigbrovar: maybe there is a reason for this orphaned ... because everybody think that is solution is better ... and backup on ftp sucks ... so do not implement it	10:29
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bigbrovar	Khertan: is insecure why not scp .. heck.. buy a dropbox account and be done with it.. I use dropbox to back up my essential config files	10:31
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Khertan	bigbrovar: it s insecure ... right ... this is why it s on a local network "machine"	10:33
Khertan	bigbrovar: it s a small nas ... with four hard drive	10:33
Khertan	but doesn't support rsync over ftp	10:33
Khertan	but doesn't support rsync over ssh	10:34
* RST38h moos at Khertan and Sts		10:34
Khertan	hi RST38h	10:34
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bigbrovar	Khertan: why not mount the remote network drive then use rsync from, there. or you could use backupPC if that is not an over kill	10:35
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Khertan	bigbrovar: because i cannot mount it	10:36
bigbrovar	Khertan: ahh	10:36
Khertan	oh ... fuck ... i can mount it in ftp	10:36
Khertan	lol i ve forgotten that exists	10:36
bigbrovar	Khertan: i was thinking same	10:37
Khertan	i always use mount ssh	10:37
Khertan	i ve forgotten this feature	10:37
Khertan	thx	10:37
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bigbrovar	Khertan: i think dolphin has that feature inbuilt	10:37
asdm	I have a N770 I enabled usb host mode and installed Carman app and i plugged in the USB OBD reader to the N770 its registers at address5 but i think the porgram only reads bluetooth devices	10:37
asdm	is there a way i can make the usb look like a bluetooth device to n770	10:37
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bigbrovar	Khertan: btw are u lucky enough to have a n900 in your possession ?	10:38
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Khertan	bigbrovar: yep	10:39
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hrw	morning	10:40
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bigbrovar	Khertan: first i hate you :p .. second I have been asking this question and no one has been able to answer. How well is the proxy support of the N900. the n810 had very good proxy support when it comes to preinstalled applications ..( with the exception of the IM Chat app which never worked behind a network proxy)	10:41
adeus	considering that all nokia devs are inside a proxy, I'd guess the support is good	10:42
bigbrovar	Khertan: and no 3rd party app worked when you are behind a network proxy. there seem unable to use the system wide proxy settings. and very few had their own inbuilt proxy settings..	10:42
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bigbrovar	adeus: for pre-installed apps yes.. (except the chat applications on the N810 which seems to be an upstream problem, because telepathy as at then did suport http proxy )	10:44
Khertan	and no 3rd party app worked when you are behind a network proxy. <<< it s depends if the dev is a good one ... or made crap code	10:44
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Khertan	bigbrovar: proxy seems to be well supported	10:44
Khertan	as i use one ...	10:44
ShadowJK	it doesn't change for 3rd party apps	10:44
Khertan	ShadowJK: it does ... when the dev use direct socket call :)	10:45
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ShadowJK	I mean, there's not much you can do to make third party apps support it, besides modifying the app	10:45
jsmanrique	hello	10:45
bigbrovar	Khertan: even with 3rd party applicaitons like mauku, canola, mastory (former wordpy) and gpodder ( all this applications and more didnt work on the n810 )	10:45
jsmanrique	anyone has an answer from DDP about what is happenning?	10:46
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Khertan	bigbrovar: it s was working with my n810	10:47
Khertan	not sure for canola	10:47
Khertan	works with my proxy for mauku mastory	10:47
bigbrovar	Khertan: even behind a network proxy? cus afaik i even filed a bug for mauku, and wordpy to support proxy	10:47
Khertan	i ven't try with gpodder	10:47
bigbrovar	Khertan: and canola also doesnt...	10:48
Khertan	Khertan: even behind a network proxy? <<< yep ... it use the one in the network config settings	10:48
Khertan	bigbrovar: for canola i don't know ... i didn't use it	10:48
bigbrovar	Khertan: only pidgin, skype, and xchat did from the apps i tried and there had inbuilt proxy support	10:49
Khertan	strange	10:49
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bigbrovar	the most painful is maemo weather which never worked for me.. and i knew it was the proxy issue	10:50
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Khertan	omweather you mean ?	10:50
lardman\|home	morning	10:50
bigbrovar	Khertan: both gnome and kde ( and even symbian) third party apps works fine using the systemwide proxy settings	10:50
Jaffa	bigbrovar: There's a bug in Maemo where it doesn't expose http_proxy correctly to apps, AFAIK	10:52
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bigbrovar	here is a forum post i made about the issue http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=32814	10:52
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bigbrovar	Jaffa: thanks .. that is a major bug.. any idea if its fixed in maemo5?	10:53
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Jaffa	bigbrovar: Dunno, not tested. Probably should, as it'll impact Python's webbrowser module, which is used by python-facebook, which is used by Hermes.	10:53
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bigbrovar	Jaffa: do you have a link to the bug report?	10:54
Jaffa	bigbrovar: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3712 contains some stuff	10:56
povbot	Bug 3712: RSS reader uses proxy settings even when proxy disabled	10:56
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hrw	maemo5 in 1024x600 looks mixed	10:57
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hrw	some apps looks ok, some bad, some (like Clock) show bugs	10:57
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* timeless_mbp frowns		10:58
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hrw	Calendar crashes like hell with my Joe Average contact...	10:58
hrw	'Birthday calendar does not exist !!' and then crash	10:59
hrw	heh.	10:59
dmj726	hrw: trying to run maemo5 on a netbook?	10:59
hrw	dmj726: no, maemo5 sdk still	10:59
bigbrovar	Jaffa: thanks	10:59
timeless_mbp	hrw: file a bug?	11:00
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timeless_mbp	preferably identify the crash id for it...	11:00
timeless_mbp	or do you not have crash-reporter?	11:00
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hrw	timeless_mbp: device first, then bugs	11:01
timeless_mbp	oh bah	11:02
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hrw	timeless_mbp: I want to be sure that bugs occur also on device	11:02
jaem	timeless_mbp, hi	11:02
timeless_mbp	hello	11:02
* timeless_mbp needs to fix ok/cancel		11:02
jaem	sigh...	11:02
* jaem is registering on the government student loan website		11:02
jaem	their forms are stupid	11:02
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jaem	the ToS agreement form tells you to enter your password and click the "I agree" button	11:03
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jaem	however, if you don't agree, you have to select the "I disagree" radiobutton... and then click "I agree" to submit	11:03
jaem	>)<	11:03
dmj726	You agree to disagree?	11:04
dmj726	:P	11:04
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jaem	maybe	11:04
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timeless_mbp	absolutely!	11:04
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jaem	also, on the "edit your personal information" form, the "best time to call" field defaults to 12am, and doesn't force you to change it before submitting	11:04
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hrw	timeless_mbp: which crash-reporter?	11:05
timeless_mbp	oh nokia-maemo has a crash reporter	11:06
timeless_mbp	which we probably don't ship :)	11:06
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timeless_mbp	it was called nitro in diablo	11:06
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timeless_mbp	now it's "crash-reporter"	11:06
hrw	timeless_mbp: and still nokia internal only?	11:06
timeless_mbp	dunno	11:06
timeless_mbp	ask eero	11:06
hrw	who?	11:07
timeless_mbp	or search to see if it's in extra-*	11:07
hrw	itis	11:07
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hrw	and not installable it is	11:07
timeless_mbp	not installable?	11:07
jaem	hrw, fix your packages, you must... mrrmmm	11:08
jaem	;)	11:08
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timeless_mbp	bah, i should ask sp3000 for help	11:08
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hrw	ok, found why	11:08
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hrw	some packages failed to install in sbox	11:08
hrw	~curse sbox for crappy 'I should be root' handling	11:09
infobot	May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, sbox for crappy 'I should be root' handling !	11:09
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hrw	ok, removed few packages and system is going on	11:13
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suihkulokki	hrw: you mean you didn't use fakeroot and changing uid/gid of files didn't work?	11:13
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hrw	suihkulokki: I refuse to read sbox manuals. as it allows me to use apt-get then I use it	11:15
suihkulokki	you can't "apt-get install" as non-root a pc either	11:15
jaem	what exactly does fakeroot do, anyhow?	11:15
hrw	suihkulokki: on pc I cannot. in sbox I can	11:15
timeless_mbp	http://linux.die.net/man/1/fakeroot	11:16
hrw	suihkulokki: ofcourse some postinstall scripts complain about it but for me it is a bug in a way which sbox works	11:16
jaem	timeless_mbp, heh... yeah	11:16
jaem	that would work - sorry	11:16
suihkulokki	hrw: because inside sbox dirs in /usr /var etc are user writable	11:16
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suihkulokki	ofcourse apt in sbox could be patched to exit if not under fakeroot...	11:17
hrw	suihkulokki: as I do not plan to use maemo5sdk vbox image for development I am fine with totally broken system in it due to 'sbox is not root but tries to behave like one' thing	11:18
* suihkulokki doesnt like sbox but thinks hrw is being a epic whiner atm.		11:18
hrw	suihkulokki: I am atm	11:18
jaem	yay, whining	11:18
RST38h	sb2! sb2!	11:19
alterego	Or you could just alias 'apt-get' to 'fakeroot apt-get' :P	11:20
hrw	http://marcin.juszkiewicz.com.pl/tmp/pic10.jpg is lovely	11:20
suihkulokki	alias "sudo" as "fakeroot" and use it like you'd on a pc =)	11:21
timeless_mbp	alterego: so that apt-get --download-only would do something stupid	11:21
alterego	Heh	11:21
alterego	Okay,	11:21
timeless_mbp	hrw: nice	11:21
alterego	Could write a simple wrapper script	11:21
lardman\|home	curiously I don't need to use fakeroot for anything other than building	11:21
hrw	lardman\|home: fakeroot for building???	11:22
lardman\|home	yeah you know dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot	11:23
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Corsac	hhm, n900 seems to be available on nokia.fr too	11:24
hrw	ah.. building+packaging	11:24
Corsac	but 650€ is really to expensive	11:24
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hrw	lardman\|home: "debuild" is more comfortable	11:24
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lardman\|home	hrw: yeah sorry all combined	11:24
aquatix	Corsac: it's available for 530 EUR here in the netherlands	11:25
aquatix	well, `available'	11:25
hrw	aquatix: 'listed in shop'	11:25
aquatix	indeed	11:25
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hrw	2499 PLN in Poland	11:26
lardman\|home	hmm, my diablo app is non-hildonised (inc the window) I wonder what's gone wrong...?	11:26
hrw	which means ~604€	11:26
Corsac	aquatix: in nokia website or in physical stores?	11:27
aquatix	Corsac: estores	11:27
aquatix	http://tweakers.net/pricewatch/244767/nokia-n900-zwart.html (dutch pricewatch site)	11:27
* konttori loves transmission on n900 (sorry for totally unnecessary comment, just had to shout out loud)		11:27
lardman\|home	does Diablo not have a hildon-style gtk_init()?	11:27
RST38h	ah you pirate =)	11:28
timeless_mbp	ok	11:28
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timeless_mbp	http://mxr.maemo.org/	11:28
timeless_mbp	now has two versions of fremantle	11:28
timeless_mbp	note that fremantle-41 is slightly broken, and i'm not sure i'll try to fix it	11:28
timeless_mbp	fremantle-42 is more interesting anyway	11:28
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RST38h	GIMP to be removed from Ubuntu 10.04	11:29
timeless_mbp	RST38h: it isn't an end user tool	11:29
alterego	:(	11:29
hrw	hm. N900 comes with WH-205 headphones. they have accept call button. does it work with n900?	11:29
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lardman\|home	I didn't get any :(	11:30
alterego	I want to know if my N95/96 media headphones will work with the N900, unlikely I guess.	11:30
lardman\|home	are they the same as came with N8x0?	11:30
jaem	RST38h, oh really?	11:30
jaem	link?	11:30
hrw	lardman\|home: tried to connect HS-47 from n8x0?	11:30
lardman\|home	nah, N95 ones don't workj	11:30
aquatix	RST38h: from default install/cd yes	11:30
lardman\|home	hrw: not sure if I have a working pair anymore	11:30
hrw	alterego: so far they do not	11:30
aquatix	still, i think it's not a good move, as it is a nice demo app	11:30
Jaffa	RST38h: More accurately, what aquatix said.	11:31
alterego	That's a bit rubbish, I like the media controls on those remotes, I use them all the time.	11:31
konttori	RST38h: no.... for downloading carmic coala!	11:31
aquatix	but apparantly not that interesting for the default demographic canonical targets	11:31
konttori	for use on my... n900	11:31
jaem	konttori, "carmic coala"? Is that the non-KDE version? :P	11:31
aquatix	teehee	11:31
hrw	alterego: so do I. I use AD-44 (2.5mm) with my E66	11:31
aquatix	jaem: that's with CDE as default WM	11:32
aquatix	s/WM/DE	11:32
jaem	aquatix, ha	11:32
konttori	RST38h: if they remove gimp from 10.04 will they also finally remove the GIMP toolkit?	11:32
timeless_mbp	konttori: hrm, i think i meant to kick you	11:32
timeless_mbp	konttori: sounds more like an Ubuntu 11 or Ubuntu 12 goal :)	11:33
jaem	gah... stupid website	11:33
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jaem	my cell carrier keeps expiring my account, but not freeing the username	11:33
konttori	would be great. Imho, they should just embrace qt and be done with it	11:33
jaem	so I'm on the fifth username now	11:33
jaem	:/	11:33
jaem	konttori, QIMP?	11:33
konttori	and have ubuntu as the non-cluttered version of kde.	11:33
konttori	lol!	11:33
jaem	didn't somebody try that?	11:33
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hrw	alterego: but if acceptcall button on WH-205/HS-47 works then AD-54 should be doable	11:34
mikhas	the channel for qt trolls is #troll =p	11:34
Khertan	hum ... question ... when i mount a ftp on the desktop with ubuntu ... it s not possible to access it by command line ?	11:34
konttori	jaem: I did mean gnome moving to qt	11:34
jaem	mikhas, good troll or bad troll? :P	11:34
konttori	would be much better if gnome and kde both used just qt	11:34
aquatix	Khertan: you mean through fuse?	11:34
jaem	does Qt Software have a channel?	11:34
aquatix	Khertan: it's mounted in your homedir somewhere	11:34
konttori	and have the two design filosophies for the desktop	11:34
Khertan	aquatix: i don't if it s use fuse anyway	11:34
konttori	#qt	11:35
jaem	right	11:35
jaem	heh	11:35
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Khertan	konttori: it ll be better if kde use gtk	11:35
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Khertan	[10:35] <Khertan> konttori: it ll be better if kde use gtk	11:35
jaem	Khertan, gah! no - don't say that!	11:35
konttori	Khertan: are you serious?	11:35
konttori	qt is far superior to gimp toolkit	11:35
Khertan	konttori: yep ... keep gtk ...	11:35
Khertan	konttori: you think it is ...	11:36
* jaem sniffs		11:36
mikhas	opinions dont make facts	11:36
jaem	is that burning bits?	11:36
Khertan	konttori: but it s your point of view	11:36
* jaem smells flaming bits		11:36
Khertan	konttori: i clearly prefer gkt	11:36
konttori	well, true enough. Anyway, I prefer gnome over kde any day	11:36
Khertan	specially when coding in python	11:36
konttori	but qt and qt c++ are much better dev envs than gobject.	11:36
hrw	use whatever you want.	11:36
konttori	yeah, python and gtk make gtk quite nice to use	11:37
Khertan	konttori: for you ... not for me	11:37
Stskeeps	at least we have sortof freedom on toolkit on maemo5 :P	11:37
Khertan	just a example	11:37
RST38h	konttori: Are you installing karmic koala on your N900 right now? =)	11:37
Khertan	i ve made a ui with glade	11:37
Khertan	i m trying to made the same with qtdesigner	11:37
jaem	Stskeeps, have they made Qt packages for the N900 yet that don't fill up the rootfs :/	11:37
jaem	?	11:38
Khertan	it s just not easy to use	11:38
konttori	RST38h: lol...	11:38
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jaem	I need it installed for a university project, but I don't want to uninstall everything else	11:38
RST38h	konttori: If they remove GTK, GNOME people at Ubuntu may go postal and literally murder our last hope for a Linux desktop =)	11:38
jaem	I think they're not packaged properly	11:38
jaem	RST38h, fair point	11:38
konttori	jaem: qt packages are optified	11:39
konttori	and there is both 4.6 and 4.5 available	11:39
jaem	konttori, really?	11:39
jaem	huh	11:39
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jaem	where is 4.6 available from? -devel?	11:39
konttori	by the way, most of ovi store apps for n900 are qt based	11:40
hrw	btw - which resolution is available on tvout from n900? qpal? qntsc?	11:40
Khertan	[10:39] <konttori> jaem: qt packages are optified <<< are you sure ? last time i fill up the /	11:40
Khertan	konttori: this doesn't make them good :)	11:40
jaem	Khertan, that's what I thought... at least, as of about two days ago	11:40
Khertan	pyside one isn't ...	11:40
kirma	hrw: I understood in general use, it's the native display resolution rescaled	11:41
lardman\|home	how can one debug a .desktop file which isn't starting the app (which starts from the commandline?)	11:41
kirma	specific hardware capabilities would be interesting, certainly	11:41
lardman\|home	and, can I use the same .desktop file on Diablo and Fremantle (i.e. a Fremantle one on Diablo that is)	11:41
konttori	Khertan: pyside isn't optified that's for sure	11:41
konttori	also could be that 4.5 is not either, I thought it is, but not sure	11:42
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Khertan	lardman\|home: pray	11:42
jaem	konttori, sorry to reiterate, but where is 4.6 available from?	11:42
jaem	I kind of need it :P	11:42
lardman\|home	Khertan: that bad? :(	11:42
hrw	kirma: rescaled but to which res...	11:42
Khertan	lardman\|home: there is no way to debug this things ...	11:42
lardman\|home	Khertan: curiously I can't start it from the main menu and from the command line I've lost my hildon window and am back to a normal one	11:43
Khertan	just modif ... try ... pray ... modif ... try ... pray ...	11:43
suihkulokki	jaem: http://maemo.org/packages/source/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_source/qt4-maemo5/4.6.0~git20091118-0maemo1/	11:43
jaem	yay	11:43
lardman\|home	lol	11:43
jaem	thanks	11:43
suihkulokki	jaem: also, #qt-maemo	11:43
jaem	oh right... that reminds me	11:43
jaem	Extras-devel is complaining at me when I try to refresh	11:43
jaem	one sec - I'll grab the error	11:43
alterego	The transition from Gtk to Qt is going to be interesting.	11:43
alterego	I think we're going to lose a lot of valuable applications in the process for quite some time.	11:44
Khertan	[10:44] <alterego> The transition from Gtk to Qt is going to be interesting. <<< nope .... it will not be	11:44
konttori	alterego: well, harmattan will have gtk support still.	11:44
Khertan	i still don't understand why not keeping gtk	11:44
Jaffa	alterego: Most should be OK with carrying on using Gtk; the question is how much will a Gtk app have to change to match whatever new UI comes in	11:44
jaem	error is: "No Hash entry in Release file /var/lib/apt/lists.new/....extras-devel_dists_fremantle_Release"	11:44
Khertan	it s really a bad idea	11:44
konttori	well, DUI is totally new stuff.	11:45
mikhas	alterego, Qt devs will have to rewrite their apps as well =)	11:45
jaem	Khertan, well, they bought Trolltech for a reason...	11:45
Jaffa	Khertan: Every time the screen redraws during rotation the limitations of Gtk are obvioous	11:45
konttori	if you want the eye-candy and the convenience, then you need to do quite a bit of porting even from a qt app.	11:45
alterego	mikhas: They wont have to do a complete rewriite, where as a lot of gnome tech based apps might.	11:45
Khertan	Jaffa: which limitation ?	11:45
alterego	Is this move from Gtk+ to Qt, going to make all the glib stuff redundant aswell?	11:45
jaem	hrm... anyone know what's up with extras-devel? Is it just me?	11:46
konttori	gtktreeview limitations are pretty obvious as well	11:46
konttori	compared to what qt has	11:46
alterego	Will libosso get pushed into a C++ Qt based implementation?	11:46
Jaffa	Khertan: That it doesn't work very well for the kind of thing they're doing with it.	11:46
konttori	glib will stay	11:46
Jaffa	jaem: Not tried recently; I'll turn it on so I can test the optified Python... hang on	11:46
jaem	Jaffa, thanks	11:46
konttori	libosso will probably be deprecated (not sure, but my guess)	11:46
Khertan	konttori: i found the tree view is good ... the qt one ... i ven't yet successfully use it ... too much complex	11:46
RST38h	konttori: Which does not say much about Ovi Store, given its app acceptancepolicies =(	11:46
mikhas	konttori, I dont see where a cellrenderer is limited compared to that data() + delegate hack	11:46
RST38h	konttori: No, seriously, who came up with that crap?	11:47
Khertan	Jaffa: which kind ... it s work well on maemo 5 ...	11:47
konttori	view + model + delegate you mean	11:47
alterego	tbh, I don't really see much point in libosso anyway, it's just a dbus wrapper with some application reigstration crap.	11:47
alterego	It's something extra that we shouldn't really need to worry about.	11:47
konttori	the policies are for symbian app	11:47
konttori	development	11:47
mikhas	no, I meant the direct comparision of the niceties a cellrenderer offers vs. the ugliness that data() + delegate offer	11:47
konttori	sorry, emilia is 'helping' me type better	11:48
* Khertan don't like how interface are think in qt ... but like how it s done in gtk		11:48
lardman\|home	argh, give me my hildon window back you buggers!	11:49
lardman\|home	not talking to anyone in particular	11:49
Khertan	:)	11:49
konttori	policies for ovi store apps will msot likely be different for n900 apps once ovi store is opened	11:50
konttori	but, to be hones, I don't have a clear visibility to the ovi store process, that's just my own guessing	11:50
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tero	could someone tell me why my treeview's row height changes when I put in into hildon.pannablearea instead of gtk.scrolledwindow?	11:51
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tero	on maemo5	11:52
RST38h	tero: I think you want an extra vbox	11:52
* lardman\|home doesn't look forward to debugging Diablo .desktop file this evening		11:53
lardman\|home	bbl	11:53
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RST38h	konttori: Even for Symbian apps, this stuff sounds ridiculous :)	11:53
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konttori	RST38h: it does, but I don't care about symbian apps	11:54
konttori	so, it's all perfectly fine if they shoot themselves in the foot	11:55
konttori	as long as we make it so that we allow also some of you guys to dev apps that you can use to make some income as well	11:55
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kirma	hrw: you might dig up specifics supported by omap3 from this: http://www-s.ti.com/sc/techlit/sprufa4	11:56
konttori	and that cannot happen as long as we have silly policies like that 1 meur insurance	11:56
kirma	heh, 421 pages ;)	11:56
kirma	I believe the hardware could generate "native" resolution signal to tv out easily, but it's just not implemented on software	11:57
kirma	might be nice though	11:57
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timeless_mbp	hrm	11:59
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timeless_mbp	what's the bug # for OK/Cancel in browser?	11:59
kirma	I suppose N900 output is composite video?	11:59
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timeless_mbp	kirma: as opposed to?	11:59
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kirma	s-video	11:59
kirma	supported by OMAP3	12:00
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kirma	oh well. I could check the service manual that I have somewhere...	12:00
gouverneur	kirma: the OMAP3 supports IrDA but we dont know if the Ir device does yet	12:01
timeless_mbp	kirma: there's no video port	12:01
fragment	kirma: composite, cable is included	12:01
gouverneur	kirma: service manual?	12:01
timeless_mbp	there's a 3.5" port which works with a composite out cable	12:01
kirma	fragment: yep, so I thought	12:01
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gouverneur	timeless_mbp: its mm	12:02
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kirma	gouverneur: you know, for service centers diagnosing problems	12:02
timeless_mbp	gouverneur: oops :)	12:02
tero	RST38h: thanks, that fixed the row height.. unfortunately it also broke scrolling using treeview.scroll_to_cell() :/	12:02
timeless_mbp	3.5" screen, 3.5mm jack	12:02
timeless_mbp	so confusing :)	12:02
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timeless_mbp	it didn't sound right when i typed/read it, so thanks for the correction :)	12:03
kirma	timeless_mbp: I suppose it's composite video and mono audio or something?	12:03
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jaem	Jaffa, any word?	12:03
aquatix	timeless_mbp: 3.5' batterypack?	12:03
timeless_mbp	there are 3 cables: red, yellow, white	12:03
gouverneur	kirma: is there a leak in your service center? like FAX or a scanner? ;)	12:03
timeless_mbp	my impression is that it's stereo	12:03
timeless_mbp	s/cables/plugs/ ?	12:03
gouverneur	cinch	12:03
aquatix	timeless_mbp: red and white sound like stereo	12:04
gouverneur	all three and stereo yes	12:04
gouverneur	like the video3 input on your TV	12:04
gouverneur	(most of the time t´his is 3)	12:05
kirma	gouverneur: google for n900 service manual... there's a site that basically sells these things for rather low subscription fee if you're interested. the legality of it is... questionable, but maybe not in the country of origin.	12:05
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timeless_mbp	jaem: so... vibrate	12:05
gouverneur	kirma: you know that just for the sake I should not buy one	12:06
jaem	timeless_mbp, what?	12:06
timeless_mbp	hrm, i think i fixed that already	12:06
jaem	oh right	12:06
jaem	good	12:06
timeless_mbp	and i've fixed Yes/No :)	12:06
jaem	yay	12:06
jaem	do you have to check the no box, and then click yes? XD	12:06
hrw	kirma: I have 3 omap3 boards at desk	12:06
timeless_mbp	bah	12:07
hrw	kirma: and use 1280x800x16 with them	12:07
timeless_mbp	there's a vbox 3.0.12	12:07
kirma	I'd say that service manual isn't particularly useful for anything unless one is addicted to reading technical documents	12:07
timeless_mbp	so... is anyone using mxr.maemo.org/fremantle? :)	12:07
kirma	hrw: I know it's possible, but details about TV out might be different... I suppose the doc I pasted might have some sort of an answer ;)	12:07
hrw	k	12:08
hrw	the worst thing is that this is composite. so PAL 720x576 is probably max what can be done	12:08
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timeless	stskeeps: vbox 3.0.12 killed my mbp	12:09
Stskeeps	timeless: not bad	12:09
timeless	it's chirping	12:10
kirma	"up to 60 megasamples per second" ... speaking of limitations imposed by the plain DAC on TV part	12:10
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Jaffa	jaem: Sorry, had a power cut.	12:11
Khertan	http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/modest/src/gnome/modest-msg-edit-window.c <<< they use gtk source view ?	12:11
jaem	Jaffa, :( oops	12:12
Khertan	???	12:12
jaem	Khertan, O_o	12:12
Khertan	but on n900 it s look like a pannable area	12:12
RST38h	tero: It starts sounding like Avkon.	12:12
Khertan	not a scrolledwindow	12:12
jaem	speaking of, is there really no way to copy text out of Modest's message view window?!	12:12
RST38h	Which is disturbing.	12:12
Jaffa	jaem: extras-devel is working within HAM	12:12
RST38h	jaem: Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V	12:12
jaem	Jaffa, thanks, I'll give it another try	12:13
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jaem	RST38h, but selecting...	12:13
jaem	is there a gesture	12:13
jaem	am I just an idiot?	12:13
RST38h	hmmm...it does not? lemme check	12:13
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Jaffa	jaem: shift & Ctrl+C/Ctrl+V apparently	12:13
gouverneur	kirma: yes it is interessting to know the wireing of the device	12:13
gouverneur	kirma: on which side of open source do you live?	12:13
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jaem	Jaffa, shift+drag?	12:14
jaem	or what?	12:14
hrw	timeless: I use vbox 3.0.12 on my debian	12:14
Jaffa	jaem: Shift+ Cursor keys was what was said in the earlier bug report	12:14
tero	RST38h: I guess the problem is that the pannablearea and treeview inside vbox don't know about each other	12:14
RST38h	Oh shit, it really does not let you mark text!	12:14
Jaffa	That's genious	12:14
timeless_mbp_	hrw: how long have you had 3.0.12?	12:14
Jaffa	s/genious/genius/ coughj	12:14
RST38h	Is there a bug filed for that?	12:14
jaem	RST38h, :P	12:14
jaem	not yet	12:15
jaem	I would, but I'm trying to get a bursary application in, and it's 2:30am	12:15
jaem	do you mind?	12:15
timeless_mbp_	ooh	12:15
timeless_mbp_	there's a beta of 3.1	12:15
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timeless_mbp_	hrw: have you tried the beta?	12:15
RST38h	jaem: Should I file?	12:15
jaem	RST38h, please	12:15
RST38h	ok	12:15
RST38h	tero: Treeview probably does not know how to scroll, it thinks it is shown wholly inside that vbox	12:16
kirma	gouverneur: I'm not quite certain what you refer to, but I'm not related to nokia... home hacker and professionally writing closed source network security running on open source based appliances	12:17
RST38h	tero: If there is a way to translate item id ==> y coordinate in the tree view, you can use that y cooridnate to scroll the vbox	12:17
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timeless_mbp_	RST38h: if you want to select text you have to use reply/forward	12:19
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* RST38h sighs		12:21
RST38h	bug #6258 gentlemen	12:21
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6258 Modest message view does not let user select text	12:21
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mikhas	I think I did select text once	12:21
mikhas	andre__ helped me wit that ...	12:21
mikhas	could it be it's a regression, rather than a new bug?	12:22
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matmo	hi all, sure I saw a post a few weeks back about an exchange programme for N900's handed back from the summit loans. Did I imagine it or can anyone point me to info?	12:22
mikhas	RST38h, https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5033	12:23
povbot	Bug 5033: Select/Copy text withing email is nonintuitive/broken	12:23
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RST38h	mikhas: Ah, so there was a bug for that!	12:24
mikhas	no not exactly	12:24
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mikhas	this one is for "reply to email" mode	12:24
mikhas	yours is for "reading email"	12:24
RST38h	Ok, it is different then	12:24
mikhas	yes, perhaps link to it still	12:24
mikhas	and confirm that you can still select text in reply mode	12:24
RST38h	Althoguh it feels almost like there should be a single bug report for Modest: "Modest does nto work"	12:25
mikhas	=)	12:25
tigert	hey, it sends and receives mail :)	12:25
RST38h	tigert: for some people, yes	12:25
RST38h	tigert: for my pop3 account, it does not	12:25
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tigert	ah	12:26
RST38h	pop3 is broken beyond usable	12:26
mikhas	yes, even without modest =p	12:26
jaem	RST38h, correction: in Diablo modest DidNotWork (TM)... in Fremantle it just has issues	12:26
RST38h	imap kinda works but goes bonkers over large folders (guess the size of gmail folders)	12:26
jaem	in fact, as much as some things like the lack of text selection are stupid, at least it functions, and is reasonably speddy	12:26
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RST38h	jaem: That is a difference between DidNot and DoesNot. I am talking of N900 Modest	12:27
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jaem	Gmail IMAP on Diablo's Modest was completely unusable	12:27
jaem	on the N900 is just has issues	12:27
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jaem	but it works well enough that I bother to use it	12:27
Stskeeps	hmm, anyone noticed location-test-gui in SDK?	12:27
RST38h	jaem: I also use it...Sometimes. Once a week.	12:27
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jaem	RST38h, I use it several times a day	12:27
Jaffa	jaem: It could be better if it made up its mind whether it had to be online or not to show you email; the caching implementation, and updating, is the second biggest annoyance to me after not having an option to put sigs below quotes and have a proper attribution	12:27
jaem	annoying bugs, yes	12:27
jaem	unusable, no - at least, not for me	12:28
RST38h	jaem: You are probably llucky to have your exact use case covered	12:28
jaem	RST38h, probably	12:28
RST38h	jaem: because I cannot use it for pop3	12:28
jaem	but it's still miles better than Diablo's Modest	12:28
jaem	RST38h, :O	12:28
RST38h	And for GMail I sometimes use it, but can't call it pleasant experience	12:28
jaem	okay, I'll rephrase that... when it works, it works reasonably well	12:28
jaem	lol	12:28
jaem	the lack of a "search my inbox of 8000 messages" feature is a bit obtuse	12:29
jaem	:/	12:29
RST38h	SSH + PINE does it for me	12:29
RST38h	Incredibly, lowly PINE will search my 8000-message folders	12:29
aquatix	(al)pine is rather nice	12:30
RST38h	But, of course, this cannot be counted as a victory for Maemo Devices :(	12:30
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jaem	I've finally decided that I do like kinetic scrolling in the terminal... however, has anyone else noticed that the cursor button sometimes doesn't appear? :S	12:31
jaem	I recently noticed it, although it had been nagging in the back of my head for a while, I think	12:31
jaem	I haven't seen it happen recently, but I'll file a bug when I do	12:31
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* jaem has to get working on some Maemo coding this weekend		12:34
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* SpeedEvil batters a maemo cod, and eats it for breakfast.		12:34
jaem	my university project team has to get a demo ready for a high-publicity event, and we're really short on time	12:34
jaem	actually, first we have to demo it to Nokia	12:35
viq	I saw a package of claws-mail, that searches too ;)	12:35
jaem	then, a week and a half later, we have to demo it to a much larger audience	12:35
jaem	sigh	12:35
jaem	not enough time	12:35
jaem	huh	12:35
* SpeedEvil ponders what the project might be.		12:35
SpeedEvil	n900 powered velociraptor?	12:36
jaem	SpeedEvil, I can't say much at the moment	12:36
jaem	close	12:36
jaem	XP	12:36
jaem	just kidding	12:36
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jaem	SpeedEvil, once it's been demoed, I can talk more about it	12:36
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Jaffa	jaem: the cursor button doesn't appear if there's no scrollback	12:36
Jaffa	(e.g. you're using screen)	12:36
jaem	Jaffa, that could be it	12:37
jaem	heh	12:37
jaem	also explains why it was nagging at me	12:37
jaem	Jaffa, apt has no issue with extras-devel, but HAM still complains at me, and refuses to list it	12:37
jaem	odd	12:37
jaem	wait... nvm	12:37
jaem	hrmmmm	12:37
jaem	it says the catalogue failed, but it's listing it now	12:38
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ccooke	Morning, all	12:47
hrw	argh... compiz in ubuntu	12:49
jaem	ccooke, morning	12:49
gouverneur	hrw: argh... ubuntu	12:49
aquatix	yay ubuntu	12:50
aquatix	:P	12:50
Shapeshifter	arch is the best	12:50
aquatix	no, debian!	12:50
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: depends	12:50
jaem	Shapeshifter, +1	12:50
gouverneur	aquatix: depends aswell	12:50
aquatix	ghehe	12:50
Shapeshifter	gouverneur: you could even say "depends" for windows.	12:50
aquatix	to everyone his/her own	12:50
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* aquatix doesn't care		12:50
jaem	gouverneur, true... I can appreciate both, despite not using *buntu on my primary machines	12:50
viq	Slashdot says ubuntu removes gimp as being "too complicated" ;P	12:50
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Shapeshifter	clearly, windows the best.	12:50
Shapeshifter	if you want to play far cry	12:51
gouverneur	I would't install an arch or slack or gentoo onto a 24/7 productive server	12:51
aquatix	viq: only from default install/cd	12:51
jaem	Shapeshifter, viq, yeah - Windows has MSPain!	12:51
jaem	paint*	12:51
jaem	but also pain	12:51
jaem	-snerk-	12:51
tigert	slackware was fun in 1995 :)	12:51
Shapeshifter	mspain, right :)	12:51
tigert	it had the coolest theme for man page colors =)	12:51
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tigert	quite a bit has changed since...	12:51
gouverneur	viq: it is... or do you know some n00b who is able to work with any adobe programs?	12:51
Shapeshifter	gimp ain't that bad	12:52
gouverneur	scribus gimp and so on are known to be for advanced users only	12:52
jaem	gouverneur, it's a pity Paint.NET is... .NET	12:52
jaem	I quite liked it on Windows	12:52
jaem	even if it got a bit fat by the end	12:52
viq	gouverneur: I am not quallified to comment ;)	12:52
tigert	inkscape and gimp has gotten me this far on my professional career :)	12:53
Shapeshifter	real men use imagemagick xD	12:53
tigert	some Adobe stuff every now and then, but I keep returning to inkscape	12:53
jaem	Shapeshifter, real men use a hex editor	12:53
tigert	Shapeshifter: I do that too, but its a bit hard to edit shapes with it :)	12:53
Shapeshifter	jaem: I knew this was next	12:53
gouverneur	gimp isnt bad but its that feature rich that most joes get hit by dialoges they never understand	12:53
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tigert	imagemagick is a resource hog thouhg	12:53
jaem	Shapeshifter, toggle switches and patch cables? :P	12:53
tigert	gouverneur: yeah its not a simple paint app :)	12:53
jaem	Shapeshifter, butterflies?	12:53
Shapeshifter	jaem: exactly.	12:53
tigert	gouverneur: then again, simple tools are there and it is no problem to get started	12:54
* Shapeshifter likes fireworks the most.		12:54
jaem	Shapeshifter, I actually took a class where we had to write ASM on paper, hand-assemble it from the back of a dead-tree reference manual, and type it into RAM on a hex keypad	12:54
jaem	they kept telling us they'd get the computers set up, but they didn't	12:54
jaem	in 8 months	12:54
jaem	>_<	12:54
Shapeshifter	^^	12:54
gouverneur	I use imagemagick for all pictures but for skizzing	12:54
tigert	the N810 theme was done in inkscape, vectors are nice for that stuff since it is easy to edit colors etc later	12:55
jaem	gouverneur, say again?	12:55
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gouverneur	I use imagemagick for all pictures but for skizzing	12:55
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gouverneur	;)	12:55
tigert	and inkscape does a good job in keeping on the pixel grid	12:55
jaem	gouverneur, I meant, "clarify"	12:55
jaem	tigert, true	12:55
timeless_mbp	jaem: doesn't .NET run on Moonlight?	12:55
alterego	Inkscape is probably one of my favorite linux UI apps.	12:55
alterego	~gui apps.	12:55
Shapeshifter	jaem: don't you know skizzing? It's like skiing, but for cool people.	12:55
alterego	timeless_mbp: you mean, moonlight runs on .net :P	12:55
jaem	timeless_mbp, Mono, yes, bt Paint.NET uses MS' proprietary ink extensions	12:56
timeless_mbp	mono moon, moon mono...	12:56
timeless_mbp	'ink'	12:56
jaem	tigert, alterego, check out http://murphyslab.ca/2009/11/07/graphing-with-inkscape/ by a friend of mine	12:56
jaem	interesting read	12:56
timeless_mbp	?	12:56
jaem	timeless_mbp, yeah - inking, as in with a pen	12:56
jaem	or a mouse, if you don't have a tablet	12:56
jaem	but last I checked, Mono had no equivalent libs	12:57
gouverneur	jaem: copy paste resize drawing-simple-things watermark text effects and so on I do with imagemagick if I need to do more than one picture	12:57
lardman	re	12:57
tigert	jaem: wow	12:57
gouverneur	ink I use for vector stuff	12:57
tigert	sweet	12:57
alterego	jaem: that is sweet, thanks :)	12:57
jaem	tigert, alterego, you're welcome, but all the credit goes to my friend	12:58
jaem	oh yeah... I went to Costco today, and scanned for networks on my N900... one of them had the SSID "...a Hidden Network"	12:58
jaem	...I think they missed a crucial point there	12:58
jaem	Fail	12:58
tigert	:)	12:58
alterego	Hahah	12:58
tigert	I once saw "NEIGHBOUR: GET YOUR OWN GODDAMN INTERNET!" -ssid (in finnish of course)	12:58
tigert	that was pretty funny :)	12:59
jaem	tigert, lol...	12:59
jaem	hmm... I was thinking... Evernote + N900 would be awesome for lecture notes	12:59
timeless_mbp	jaem: um	13:00
timeless_mbp	is that really the side?	13:00
Shapeshifter	sometimes when I'm bored I'll take out kismet while on the train to work	13:00
timeless_mbp	er ssid	13:00
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: jaem: if they didnt remove avatars and so form maemo I could show you one of my pics (handmade not computer)	13:00
Shapeshifter	funny essids everywhere	13:00
timeless_mbp	because i think that's my localization's text	13:00
Shapeshifter	like "obama"	13:00
jaem	however, the people that take photos of the lecture notes tend to make a bad reputation by being stupid, and I don't want that stigma	13:00
inz	tigert, reminds me of the old "norwegian virus" -joke	13:00
Shapeshifter	"scheiss windows"	13:00
tigert	inz: ?	13:00
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: da hast du wohl recht	13:00
gouverneur	brb	13:00
inz	tigert, "You have just received a Norwegian virus. Since we are not so technologically advanced in Norway, this is a MANUAL virus. Please delete all the files on your hard disk yourself and send this mail to everyone you know."	13:00
Shapeshifter	gouverneur: was an essid I saw on the way to work ;)	13:01
timeless_mbp	"... a hidden network"	13:01
timeless_mbp	is the string i use	13:01
jaem	timeless_mbp, >_<... I should have guessed	13:01
timeless_mbp	so if H and N are capitalized, then the network really has that name	13:01
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: nice	13:01
tigert	jaem: pen + paper (less geeky and easier to write) + N900 camera to "fax" them to evernote would work	13:01
tigert	or flickr or whatever	13:01
jaem	in fact, I think a friend asked, and it came to mind	13:01
jaem	heh	13:01
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: a-hell-of-a-hotspot is coming along my way	13:01
timeless_mbp	i should see if there are any special characters i can stick into those buttons to highlight "this is SPECIAL"	13:02
Shapeshifter	^^	13:02
jaem	tigert, good point actually... I don't know why that didn't occur to me	13:02
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jaem	but their OCR seems pretty good	13:02
mikhas	my handwriting easily breaks any OCR	13:02
tigert	jaem: I do mindmaps and such usually when taking notes	13:03
tigert	so ocr is kinda pointless	13:03
tigert	so images would work for me	13:03
jaem	tigert, same for a lot of my notes, but the advantage of Evernote is that it stores images, but indexes the text	13:03
jaem	so I could, say, look up some calculus theorem by name, and find the graph	13:03
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tigert	oooh right	13:04
* tigert tries		13:04
jaem	hrm... has anyone tried hooking up a Wacom Bamboo tablet to the N810?	13:04
jaem	I doubt it would have enough current supply	13:04
jaem	but that would be pretty awesome for xournal	13:04
tigert	the touchscreen itself has pressure sensitivity a bit	13:05
jaem	my handwriting's pretty messy, so I have to zoom in way too far to write neatly	13:05
jaem	yeah	13:05
tigert	its much easier to draw on the screen itself when the dpi is high	13:05
jaem	but the panning bugs me	13:05
jaem	mmhmm	13:05
tigert	sure	13:05
jaem	I suppose	13:05
tigert	so write on a paper sheet and photograph it :)	13:05
tigert	less trouble :)	13:05
tigert	snap	13:05
jaem	I was bugging what's-his-name who's working on the Fremantle Xournal port to add some sort of paging ability	13:05
jaem	but with no hardware buttons on the face, that's a bit more awkward	13:06
jaem	a gesture would be nice	13:06
jaem	something that could be done with the hand that's holding the device, while using a stylus with the other	13:06
tigert	two fingers to pan?	13:06
tigert	and one to draw would work	13:06
SpeedEvil	http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270485833257&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fshop.ebay.co.uk%3A80%2F%3F_from%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm38%26_nkw%3D270485833257%26_fvi%3D1&_rdc=1 is clearly the correct solution for doing n900 images.	13:06
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tigert	I guess you could detect something from the touch area size	13:06
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jaem	tigert, writing with your finger?! um... no	13:07
jaem	I meant a paging gesture, as in "do something with your left thumb to slide it right/carriage return on EOL" while writing with your right hand/stylus	13:08
jaem	as long as you're writing within the lines, it could work, and obviously you could turn it off if you're not	13:08
tigert	yeah	13:08
jaem	there was some talk about making it (in the future) be aware of larger units of writing than just strokes	13:09
jaem	e.g. it knows that a group of letter close together is a word, and can add intelligence based on that	13:09
Shapeshifter	mhh. I don't really get why resistive touch screens didn't have multitouch until only recently.	13:11
jaem	Shapeshifter, are those the 5-wire panels?	13:11
SpeedEvil	Shapeshifter: it's more complex to implement.	13:11
jaem	or am I thinking of something else?	13:11
SpeedEvil	Shapeshifter: you've got to basically segment the screen into lots of little screens to do multitouch	13:12
Shapeshifter	I'm still reading on how they actually work	13:12
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jaem	hmm... well, that application is done... my uni has a "work-study" program that allows you to work for a prof to earn some cash	13:13
jaem	only I didn't apply in time for this semester, so the project I mentioned that I'm doing, I'm doing for free	13:14
jaem	I'm hoping to get payed for it next semester :P	13:14
jaem	by the way, sbox allows multiple users, right?	13:14
jaem	that was the impression I was under, but then I was told otherwise... and I haven't had time to look into it	13:14
Stskeeps	yeah	13:15
jaem	Stskeeps, any limitations?	13:15
Stskeeps	well, fakeroot affects all users i guess	13:15
Stskeeps	but i can't recall	13:15
* jaem nods		13:16
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Lorthirk	woah, n900 available on italian nokia shop	13:20
jaem	O_o why does ankiqt have >= deps on two different versions of libqt4-core, as well as = deps on one of them? ...I guess that's why it's in -devel	13:21
jaem	I'm glad the maemo.org team decided to split it into -devel and -testing	13:21
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hrw	Lorthirk: n900 is available in all nokia webshops. except DDP one	13:21
Lorthirk	it was only on preorder until yesterday (always talking about italian...)	13:22
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kirma	hrw: after lots of digging, I conclude that highest tv resolution N900 might be able to output is 944*576 or so (wide-screen square pixel PAL)	13:26
DocScrutinizer	did Nokia care to add a decent voice-control to N900? as Maemo5 has some blobs anyway, I guess Nokia could port the voice control from e.g. N97 as well	13:27
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Jaffa	DocScrutinizer: There is no voice control currently, AFAIK	13:27
DocScrutinizer	:-S	13:28
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DocScrutinizer	thanks for the info anyway, Jaffa	13:28
kirma	err, not quite so. 848x576... mmaybe.	13:28
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hrw	kirma: thx	13:29
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kirma	but achieving that is another thing, although that part of the video hardware is openly documented	13:29
kirma	I assume that 59 MHz clock is available on the chip... just hoping I didn't misinterpret the documentation.	13:30
jaem	kirma, where are you getting the docs from?	13:31
DocScrutinizer	:-) my question	13:31
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kirma	in this specific case, I'm browsing through http://www-s.ti.com/sc/techlit/sprufa4	13:31
kirma	just generic OMAP35x documentation	13:31
jaem	ah, okay	13:31
jaem	is there an overview of the N900 hardware anywhere?	13:32
kirma	service manual has some higher-level information on internal components and service schematics would have specifics, but neither are really public documentation, although widespread once phone is on market	13:34
tbf	jaem: http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/ is not sufficient?	13:34
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jaem	tbf, I meant components, not general specs	13:34
jaem	kirma, figured as much ;)	13:34
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DocScrutinizer	thnx :-)	13:35
kirma	I believe there will be crack-open kind of stuff in relatively short time around the web	13:35
fragment	kirma: are you looking for some specific information or just everything generally?	13:35
jaem	konttori, what is the "transitioncontrol" package for?	13:36
jaem	your pkg description isn't exactly enlightening :P	13:36
Stskeeps	disabling transitions in UI	13:36
Stskeeps	in hildon desktop specifically	13:36
jaem	ah	13:36
konttori	jaem: you can tune the transitions on the device with it	13:36
Stskeeps	ah, yes, tune	13:37
jaem	tune == on/off, or "tune"?	13:37
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konttori	so, you can tune them to be longer, shorter, you have lot's of granularity	13:37
jaem	I was actually surprised at how much eyecandy they packed into the N900 while still making it quite usable	13:37
kirma	fragment: I'm in general curious about things	13:37
jaem	ooh	13:37
* jaem installs it		13:37
jaem	konttori, is that in config in /etc somewheres?	13:37
konttori	it's piss ass badly packaged (transitioncontrol)	13:38
jaem	heh	13:38
konttori	its /usr/share/hidon-desktop/transitions.ini	13:38
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* jaem nods		13:38
jaem	thanks!	13:38
jaem	why is usbcontrol in the fremantle repos? I thought USB host was out entirely... or is it just disabled in software?	13:39
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konttori	well, it doesn't work	13:40
konttori	just happens to be there	13:40
jaem	ah	13:40
konttori	you can force usb to host mode though	13:40
jaem	really?	13:41
jaem	hrmm	13:41
konttori	but not on a running device	13:41
jaem	ah	13:41
jaem	link?	13:41
konttori	yeah. some flasher flag or something like that	13:41
jaem	and how much of a hack is it?	13:41
konttori	no idea on details	13:41
jaem	oh, that	13:41
konttori	just know that it's possible	13:41
jaem	I'm guessing that it theoretically could be made to work without a reboot, then?	13:41
Stskeeps	konttori: thought that was removed.. the question is if device is capable of host or not.. otg is less relevant :P	13:41
jaem	Stskeeps, that's what I was wondering	13:42
Stskeeps	i guess people will find out eventually	13:42
konttori	you can still hack it to host mode afaik	13:42
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jaem	I never actually heard the whole story about that, mainly because of all the noise on the forums	13:42
Stskeeps	yeah	13:42
Stskeeps	they said USB OTG not working, which is obviously not practical, but if host pins still work, is something else	13:42
jaem	hopefully we can... I quite liked being able to just plug a flash key into it	13:42
jaem	and a keyboard would be nice	13:42
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jaem	Stskeeps, hmm	13:42
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Stskeeps	and then there's the whole charging issue	13:42
konttori	bt keyboard is much better.	13:42
konttori	and microsd is much better than usb key	13:43
jaem	what is the difference between OTG, and providing host/device modes separately?	13:43
konttori	port won't anyway have enough juice for proper usb keys	13:43
jaem	aside from the detection part	13:43
konttori	otg is able to switch on the fly. that's it	13:43
RST38h	Apple BT Keyboard still does not work though =(	13:43
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* RST38h sheds a tear at the cold aluminium		13:43
jaem	konttori, on the fly, as in while running, or automatically?	13:43
konttori	how come? someone needs to hack pple bt in!	13:43
konttori	automatically	13:44
jaem	konttori, the N810 will power an OCZ Rally2 flash drive, which IMO is one of the best out there, and probably not easy on power	13:44
jaem	it won't power my Sandisk SD reader, though	13:44
RST38h	konttori: Something is wrong with it :( The bt kbd connection method described at the summit does not work	13:44
jaem	annoyingly enough	13:44
konttori	for read it can probably power it, but not for writing	13:44
RST38h	It is recognized, but does not work	13:44
jaem	konttori, the flash key works fine for oth	13:44
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jaem	but it won't even power up the card reader	13:45
jaem	I use the flash key all the time, actually	13:45
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RST38h	jaem: Seriously though, with 64MB top internal capacity in N900, why do you need a flash key?	13:45
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jaem	RST38h, fair point, and I always have a Nokia USB cable strapped onto my gadget holster (-grin-) anyway, but I do sometimes need to pull a file from a flash key I got from someone else	13:46
RST38h	jaem: I am lazy and thuse use SCP =)	13:47
RST38h	Except for stuff like video of course	13:47
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: where are you from_	13:47
jaem	one reason (although not currently, for me) is that one might potentially want to format most of the device as something other than vfat, in which case Windows computers can't read it	13:47
gouverneur	s/_/?	13:47
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gouverneur	jaem: thats not true!	13:47
jaem	RST38h, that works for a lot of those cases - scp has replaced flash keys for me for the most part, but it doesn't always work	13:47
jaem	for one thing, my uni has blocked ssh in some of the labs	13:48
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jaem	apparently people were torrenting, tunnelled over their file server	13:48
gouverneur	jaem: tunnel over http	13:48
jaem	my uni has a fast pipe	13:48
jaem	gouverneur, yeah, there are ways around it	13:48
jaem	plus they didn't block it on all the computers	13:48
jaem	no idea why - probably they didn't think it through	13:48
jaem	gouverneur, and as for fs's, I meant EXT3 and friends	13:49
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gouverneur	to block ssh internal universities should be punished by some dwarf axe fighter	13:49
jaem	and yes, I know there are drivers for Windows, but the local print shop, etc. isn't going to have that installed	13:49
gouverneur	jaem: me to	13:49
jaem	gouverneur, I fully agree, although they haven't blocked it in Residence	13:49
jaem	...yet	13:49
jaem	there was some talk about blocking everything but ports 80 and 443, rather than actually fixing the horrible network issues	13:50
jaem	of course, you know that means	13:50
jaem	...VPN!	13:50
gouverneur	I just setup some new ntfs partitions to safe the games on because I had a strange feeling with speed and so while gaming from ext3	13:50
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jaem	gouverneur, if you want to know how much our Residence network fails, check out the posts at http://creativemisconfiguration.com/	13:51
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gouverneur	uuuh	13:52
RST38h	Is that the name of your residential network? =)	13:52
jaem	RST38h, what?	13:52
jaem	it's the university residence	13:52
RST38h	Creative Misconfiguration ?	13:52
jaem	provided by a third party, under contratr	13:52
jaem	manditory	13:52
jaem	and full of fail	13:52
jaem	no	13:52
jaem	it's a domain my friend and I grabbed because it was made of Win	13:53
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* RST38h wonders why a university would hire outside help for IT maintenance		13:53
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jaem	RST38h, it's not run through the university	13:53
jaem	they don't want anything to do with Residence internet	13:53
RST38h	University has not got enough of its own CS/IT students to manage it?	13:53
jaem	the campus network is pretty well maintained	13:53
jaem	oh yeah, they do	13:54
jaem	we tried to pitch that to them a few years ago	13:54
jaem	but they didn't go for it	13:54
RST38h	Why waste money on outside fail then?	13:54
jaem	the company's low on money, and Rez is just stingy	13:54
jaem	so nobody fixes anything	13:54
jaem	granted, it's better than it used to be	13:54
RST38h	Using students would still cost less	13:54
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jaem	first year, we payed $30/month for what was supposed to be 1.5Mbps downstream (actually more like dial-up at peak times)	13:55
RST38h	Students is as cheap as you can possibly go, short of managing whole network from China	13:55
jaem	and it usually went out for about a week or so every time exams came up	13:55
RST38h	Can't you create your own network though?	13:55
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jaem	they also did things like putting their logs on the same partition as the DHCP leases... and guess what happened... :/	13:55
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jaem	RST38h, we thought about setting up a rogue mesh :D but it would take far too much hardware, and most of the students are too apathetic to make it work	13:56
jaem	aside from that, not much we can do	13:56
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javispedro	hiyo	13:57
jaem	javispedro, hiya	13:57
feri	ping _marcell_	13:58
RST38h	jaem: You can use existing wires, just disconnect their uplink =)\	13:58
jaem	RST38h, No Comment ;)	13:58
jaem	the sad thing is that they probably have set things up that poorly	13:59
jaem	or almost	13:59
zaheerm	got iplayer stuff all parsed now in python	13:59
* javispedro searches for today's dealbreaker.... will it be "can I install harmattan on it?"		13:59
jaem	javispedro, "will harmattan+1 work on my Zune and sync with iTunes??!!1?"	14:00
jaem	:P	14:00
javispedro	well, place your bets.	14:00
RST38h	jaem: of course it will, just apply drugs	14:01
* jaem bets 5 Internets on what javispedro said		14:01
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lardman	can dbus start an app?	14:02
javispedro	yeah	14:02
RST38h	yes	14:02
javispedro	in fact dbus is the way most apps are launched when tapped on the menu	14:03
lardman	so I could issue a maemo.org.mbarcode.found_barcode message and any app that has registered itself as interested in that will be started and passed the message?	14:03
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RST38h	Hmmm...AlmostTI is now the 2nd in terms of Maemo5 downloads	14:04
wjt	lardman: not exactly	14:04
lardman	am just thinking that I hate webscraping code, and that I should either spin out all the barcode uses to individual apps, or to plugins	14:04
javispedro	lardman: well if the app is down how can it register itself as interested ;)	14:04
wjt	lardman: you can call a method on the service org.maemo.mbarcode, and if it's not running the bus daemon will started	14:04
wjt	s/started/start it/	14:04
infobot	wjt meant: lardman: you can call a method on the service org.maemo.mbarcode, and if it's not running the bus daemon will start it	14:04
lardman	javispedro: exactly my question	14:04
jaem	RST38h, congrats! Just downloaded it	14:04
wjt	infobot: go to hell!	14:04
infobot	go to hell is, like, a song	14:04
lardman	hmm, not quite what I want then	14:04
wjt	but applications can't randomly register to be launched when a message is sent	14:05
javispedro	yeah, your question reminds of the palmos notification framework	14:05
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javispedro	but afaik I don't think there's anything similar on maemo right now..	14:05
* jaem awards RST38h two Internets		14:05
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lardman	well I guess said apps could call maemo.org.notify_me and tell mbarcode their dbus call, then when mbarcode has something for them it can call them?	14:06
lardman	maemo.org.mbarcode.notify_me	14:06
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javispedro	guess so. or even add themselves to a gconf entry	14:06
PaulFertser	lardman: that's called dbus activation i guess	14:06
PaulFertser	lardman: the way they're started	14:06
lardman	what would be the most usual/acceptible way to do this?	14:06
jaem	konttori, blech... you were right when you said that package was packaged poorly :P	14:06
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javispedro	I think adding "interested" services to a gconf entry is not that bad	14:08
lardman	I imagine dbus calls is preferable to plugins, as then something like the calendar app could listen for vcal data from a barcode	14:08
lardman	etc	14:08
javispedro	guess so.	14:08
lardman	I'm open to suggestions here	14:09
lardman	:)	14:09
jaem	okay... what the heck	14:10
javispedro	i assume just opening the vcal with the default registered app is not enough?	14:10
jaem	why does the BT pairing dialog invert the functionality of the -> key?	14:10
lardman	I'm wondering if that will work	14:10
jaem	e.g. letters are 2nd fn	14:10
lardman	javispedro: but yes, that will work for e.g. vCal, vCard? and URLs	14:11
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lardman	javispedro: but other apps might want to handle e.g. MMS: some of the Japanese message formats, or just random 1D EAN/UPC or random 2D datasets	14:11
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jaem	grr... apparently Maemo doesn't allow BT pairing with no key, either	14:13
jaem	to the Bugzilla!	14:14
lardman	so how would one try to open a vCal entry programmatically?	14:18
lardman	some dbus call for the calendar app?	14:19
javispedro	presumably, the file manager opens vcal files?	14:19
lardman	yeah, I'll have to have a look at the source for that, assuming it's open	14:20
javispedro	i'm pretty sure it's a plain dbus call	14:20
javispedro	you can use dbus-monitor	14:20
javispedro	or call qwerty12, he knows	14:20
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lardman	I was wondering if rather than a specific call, there was a call one can make to the handler	14:20
lardman	or perhaps that's what it does	14:20
lardman	I'll have to check and see	14:20
VDVsx	jaem, it's because of the dialog context, normally the BT pin codes are numbers	14:21
jaem	VDVsx, I figured that out, but it's not immediately obvious	14:21
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VDVsx	jaem, true, in maemo4 there's a little bar that indicates that	14:22
jaem	VDVsx, mmhmm	14:22
lardman	libhildonmime	14:23
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VDVsx	jaem, and the 'no pin' option is related to upstream bluez, afaik, no directly Maemo fault	14:24
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jaem	VDVsx, I don't believe so... I know I've paired the wiimote with my old laptop (a year ago), and with my N810	14:25
jaem	and it won't pair with the N900	14:25
konttori	jaem: yeah, I was! and I know it oh so well, but I'm still to lazy to fix it :(	14:25
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jaem	can you confirm that?	14:25
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VDVsx	jaem, that change in bluez4	14:25
VDVsx	*changed	14:25
jaem	konttori, well, at least remove the .DS_store from /usr/share/applications - it conflicts with another poorly packaged app	14:25
jaem	XD	14:25
jaem	VDVsx, changed for the worse?	14:26
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konttori	jaem: that would be the work that I would need to do, and that's what I'm too lazy to do atm	14:26
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konttori	might be a good target for the day though.	14:26
VDVsx	jaem, they've a 'good' explanation for that, can't remember now :P	14:26
lardman	ok, looks like the Mime stuff should be ok, and it's automatically updated from the .desktop files which is nice	14:26
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jaem	VDVsx, is that like their explanation of why they have no API documentation for the 4.x series? ;)	14:27
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VDVsx	jaem, lol, search in docs folder	14:28
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PaulFertser	jaem: they do have documentation in the sources. And they do accept patches that clarify it ;)	14:28
jaem	VDVsx, forgive me if I asked this already (I can't remember), but are we going to see the shiny version of BlueMaemo that wazd was posting about, any time soon?	14:28
jaem	PaulFertser, heh... fair enough	14:28
VDVsx	jaem, a incomplete version is on the builder	14:29
VDVsx	but the builder is stuck :(	14:29
PaulFertser	jaem: it's just mad confusing that bluez3-specific info is all over the internet and their wiki too. But almost all important docs are there in the docs directory in the source tarball and they're understandable enough.	14:29
jaem	VDVsx, kk... I've been waiting... it's so purty	14:29
jaem	PaulFertser, yeah, that had me going for a while... thanks a lot for the tip	14:29
VDVsx	jaem, I'm waiting for more art from wazd, the rest is done	14:30
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jaem	I need to get Bluetooth working for a project in short order, and was dreading it	14:30
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jaem	VDVsx, I figured I'd poke at your code to see how to do the pairing initiation and such :)	14:30
pupnik_	nice	14:31
VDVsx	jaem, in maemo is just a d-bus call	14:31
jaem	VDVsx, awesome	14:31
jaem	that will simplify things	14:31
pupnik_	can the zeemote be integrated?	14:31
jaem	do you have any experience with rfcomm device nodes?	14:31
jaem	specifically, the creation of them?	14:31
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VDVsx	jaem, the api: http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/5.0-final/bluez/	14:31
jaem	I need to bang bits at a sensor board	14:31
jaem	also awesome	14:31
VDVsx	very poor indeed	14:32
VDVsx	jaem, I sec and I'll send you the pairing stuff	14:32
jaem	VDVsx, thanks!	14:32
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VDVsx	jaem, http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Using_Connectivity_Components/Maemo_Connectivity#Bluetooth_DBUS_UI_dialogs	14:32
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VDVsx	use those d-bus calls one shows the list and the other one is a signal that sends the selected device	14:33
jaem	nice	14:33
jaem	I should just stay up until 4am on IRC every day	14:33
PaulFertser	jaem: there're some good (and bad) examples is the tests directory in python.	14:33
jaem	PaulFertser, yeah... most of the decent stuff on the net seems to be Python	14:34
PaulFertser	jaem: (talking about bluez calls)	14:34
VDVsx	jaem, works for maemo4 and 5	14:34
jaem	we don't need to do much, to be honest	14:34
jaem	just pair, create an rfcomm device node, and hand it off to the serial communication code that someone else is writing	14:34
VDVsx	jaem, C stuff is a wat more complex	14:34
jaem	VDVsx, I gathered that	14:34
PaulFertser	jaem: read serial-api.txt for that	14:34
VDVsx	S/wat/way/	14:35
jaem	but C is our only option for this	14:35
jaem	PaulFertser, sure	14:35
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VDVsx	jaem, here are a lot of simple C examples: http://www.btessentials.com/examples/examples.html	14:35
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jaem	VDVsx, S60 BT examples too? Perfect	14:41
jaem	we're planning a port, once we get the Maemo app working	14:41
jaem	yay	14:41
VDVsx	jaem, warning: pyS60 BT stuff is very very bad and very very broken :P	14:42
VDVsx	personal opinion of course ^	14:42
jaem	VDVsx, fair enough, but it may be a starting point	14:42
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jaem	we won't be using Python, in any case	14:42
jaem	too fat for what we're doing	14:42
VDVsx	jaem, ah, so you're safe	14:42
jaem	I'm safe because I'm the Maemo guy - I won't be touching S60 :P	14:42
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jaem	RST38h, getting graphical glitches in ATI85	14:43
jaem	when you try to click out of the "Needs ROM image" banner, it flickers like crazy	14:44
jaem	are you aware of that one?	14:44
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VDVsx	jaem, luck you, every time I look at S60 stuff, I lose year of my live :P	14:47
Stskeeps	oh, wow	14:47
Stskeeps	they open sources osso-applet-screencalibration	14:47
Stskeeps	d	14:47
jaem	Stskeeps, woo!	14:48
jaem	VDVsx, that's the impression I got	14:48
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jaem_n900	just because I can ;)	14:53
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PaulFertser	jaem: does n900 has a more sane (read terminal junkie-friendly) keyboard layout by default?	14:53
jaem_n810	VDVsx, PaulFertser, thanks a lot for your help!	14:54
jaem	PaulFertser, unfortunately, no	14:54
jaem	arguably worse	14:54
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jaem	although that's largely because there are less keys available to remap	14:54
VDVsx	jaem, np :)	14:54
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PaulFertser	jaem: :((( nokia customer "care" at its best	14:55
jaem	however, the keyboard itself is so much better that typing it on it for most tasks is a reasonably pleasant experience	14:55
jaem	PaulFertser, I would have loved a 5-row keyboard, or at least another 4-row, but given that their main target market isn't the terminal-using type, I can't fault them too much	14:55
PaulFertser	jaem: before i actually tried n810 keyboard i thought it's better. But now i'm disappointed, the feedback is too strange.	14:55
jaem	and it is a really nice keyboard	14:55
_berto_	I find it reasonably good for the shell	14:55
_berto_	and I do a lot of ssh	14:55
jaem	wait, you like the N810 keyboard better?!	14:56
jaem	the N900 took a bit of getting used to, but now I can't stand my N810's	14:56
PaulFertser	jaem: i thought n810 keyboard is better than it actually is.	14:56
jaem	plus I can't touch-type on it anymore :P	14:56
jaem	ah	14:56
jaem	well, the N900's keyboard blows it out of the water	14:56
_berto_	I think the n900 keyboard is more pleasant to use	14:56
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jaem	my only annoyance is that they put two switches under the space key, so while it doesn't actually double-press, it sometimes feels like it has, and throws off my touch-typing	14:57
jaem	also, a right-shift would have been nice	14:57
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jaem	the arrow keys are great, thoguh	14:57
jaem	a D-Pad would have been nice, but the N900's arrow keys are a sight better than the N810's D-Pad, in general terms	14:57
jaem	so I'll take what I can get	14:58
PaulFertser	_berto_: on n810 i lack esc, tab, / is not convenient... Also no meta key (and esc is inconvenient)...	14:58
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jaem	that was actually my general impression of the N900 - lots of things that could have been done better/more to my liking, but still a fairly solid device, and a huge step in the right direction	14:58
_berto_	PaulFertser: it's obviously not perfect for the shell, but it's reasonably good	14:58
jaem	PaulFertser, give me a moment - link	14:58
_berto_	I wouldn't expect a thinkpad keyboard on a pocket device :p	14:58
tigert	its pretty sweet compromise	14:59
jaem	PaulFertser, http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?s=d629f515ca9252db8a95e56d06a6f43b&p=314242&postcount=4	14:59
jaem	I use that layout on my N810, and it's much better	14:59
jaem	keep in mind that the "back" key is mapped to Esc	14:59
_berto_	ah yes	14:59
PaulFertser	jaem: lack of usb host is something that i found unacceptable. Also the price. It's so fucking much more than ~$200 you can buy a freerunner for, and freerunner is on the order of magnitude more free.	14:59
_berto_	in the n900 it's a bit more annoying, but still ...	14:59
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jaem	PaulFertser, yeah, and I take your point, but IIRC the Freerunning is nowhere close in terms of hardware specs	15:00
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jaem	the N900 is a beautiful device	15:00
jaem	that said, I can't afford one either	15:00
jaem	I just have mine on extended loan from my prof :P	15:00
jaem	lucky me	15:00
pupnik_	nice	15:01
jaem	while ~$600 is a lot of money, it's also not out of the way for phones of that calibre	15:01
PaulFertser	jaem: indeed. But FR has usb host. And you can connect spi chips or whatever to it. Hackability is superior. Anyway, have a nice day, gtg :) good luck.	15:01
jaem	and this one is better than most	15:01
jaem	PaulFertser, true	15:01
jaem	cheers	15:01
pupnik_	is top of the line pocket computer for 600	15:01
_berto_	well, I have a freerunner	15:01
jaem	pupnik_, yeah, I'm pretty happy :)	15:01
pupnik_	not too much!	15:01
_berto_	and it's apples and oranges	15:01
pupnik_	mhm	15:02
jaem	_berto_, that's the thing	15:02
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jaem	part of me says "that's not a bad price", and the other part says "I could buy a decent desktop for half again as much"	15:02
jaem	but you can't really compare them	15:02
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pupnik_	right, desktop is 9ps	15:02
pupnik_	90s	15:02
_berto_	with the n900 i don't even feel like switching on my laptop when I get home	15:02
jaem	pupnik_, ?	15:02
pupnik_	space bending power in hand is 00s	15:03
jaem	yeah, true	15:03
jaem	I just meant in terms of raw power	15:03
jaem	but no, the N900 is sweet	15:03
jaem	I love being able to use it just like a laptop	15:03
pupnik_	yup	15:03
jaem	the N810 was nice, but deficient in some ways	15:03
jaem	kind of like using a P III for web use	15:04
pupnik_	i notice youtube is comparatively fast vs other flash video sites...	15:04
jaem	doable, but not fun	15:04
jaem	and not always usable for everything	15:04
jaem	the N900 is much more like I'd hoped when I first bought the N810	15:04
jaem	pupnik_, yeah, but the player buttons aren't as responsive as I'd like	15:04
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jaem	also, microB/Maemo Browser has some rough edges	15:05
jaem	case in point, the Addons dialog	15:05
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pupnik_	maybe we can somehow end bloated websites with the new gen portables	15:05
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jaem	oops	15:05
* jaem left the milk out downstairs :O		15:05
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jaem	too bad I'll have to leave the compu--- ...oh wait :P	15:06
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pupnik_	id like those different unneeded blocks, tags, regions	15:06
pupnik_	to be inactive memort and cpuwise	15:06
pupnik_	heh jaem	15:06
jaem_n810	ping	15:06
jaem_n900	ping	15:06
jaem_n900	-grin-	15:07
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tigert	real men use screen and irssi to avoid duplicate irc presence ;)	15:09
jaem_n900	tigert, yeah I know	15:09
jaem_n900	I keep meaning to learn irssi	15:09
jaem_n900	but it's a bit awkward on the N90's kbd	15:09
tigert	the terminal on n900 + openssh is one killer app for lots of things	15:10
jaem_n900	indeed	15:10
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jaem_n900	but all the shortcuts in irssi get a bit painfil	15:10
jaem_n900	I presume you can remap them?	15:10
Jaffa	tigert: Is there a magic way of getting irssi to do nick highlighting wherever your nick appears in text, rather than just '^jaffa: '?	15:10
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Nitial	simply /hilight jaffa	15:13
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Nitial	you need options to make it match only the nick ;)	15:13
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Jaffa	Nitial: And is that persistent? (Not that I restart it often, but...)	15:13
tigert	"^jaffa:" does look like a regexp ;)	15:13
tigert	which matches beginning of line + your nick + colon	15:13
Jaffa	tigert: Yes, because that's the behaviour I see OOtB	15:14
tigert	yeah	15:14
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Nitial	save your config	15:14
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Jaffa	'/save' seemed to do that.	15:14
Jaffa	ta	15:14
tigert	yea default hilight is ^$nick: I guess	15:14
tigert	/layout save saves your windows and query windows and stuff	15:15
tigert	/save saves config	15:15
lardman	hmm, when did javispedro vanish?	15:16
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AndrewFBlack	Is it just me or is there no way to rename a fil on Maemo5 using file manager?	15:25
jaem_n900	andr	15:26
jaem_n810	AndrewFBlack, click and hold	15:26
Jaffa	AndrewFBlack: Tap & hold? There's a menu, but I dunno if it includes "Rename"	15:27
kalikiana	AndrewFBlack, in the context menu	15:27
jaem_n810	yep	15:27
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AndrewFBlack	ok didn't know about that menu I been using regular memu for move and delete so far	15:27
AndrewFBlack	I knew they hadn't removed rename file lol	15:28
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pupnik_	where do i see n900 cpu speed	15:28
kirma	"see" ?	15:29
pupnik_	read	15:29
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pupnik_	numbers	15:29
range	Can't you feel it? :)	15:29
kalikiana	throw it across the room and see how fast it goes :)	15:29
kirma	powertop on console maybe	15:29
range	Probably somewhere in /sys/ as I don't think that you'll have /proc/acpi on that system.	15:29
bleader	no /proc/cpuinfo ?	15:30
bleader	(Haven't a maemo device yet, sorry if this is obviously wrong to everybody :p)	15:30
range	/sys/devices/system/cpu maybe.	15:30
kalikiana	/proc/cpuinfo is there	15:31
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pupnik_	bogomips is 1:1 mhz?	15:32
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bleader	pupnik_: tends to be 2:1MHz on non x86 arch	15:32
bleader	from what I've seen	15:32
pupnik_	reporting 249.96 bogomips atm	15:32
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range	pupnik_: No, bogomips is bogo.	15:33
pupnik_	opÃen shell, 4 progs in bg	15:33
bleader	cat /dev/zero > /dev/null	15:33
range	You can really (no not even then) only compare same CPUs against each other with that.	15:33
range	And I don't think the bogomips value gets updated.	15:33
bleader	true	15:34
range	cpu MHz might if in cpuinfo :)	15:34
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pupnik_	i looked through all of /proc	15:37
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pupnik_	i mean sys	15:37
pupnik_	tryin proc now	15:37
RST38h	moo pupnik	15:38
pupnik_	hi	15:38
pupnik_	nm	15:38
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javispedro	Ovi Store's policy is today's dealbreaker. With nearly 10 pages worth of posts today, definitely.	15:41
jaem	javispedro, aw... I lost	15:41
* jaem gives javispedro the 5 Internets he bet		15:42
jaem	I actually have a textbook with the word "Internets" in its title	15:42
jaem	although it's using the word correctly, and not as a Bushism	15:42
jaem	heh	15:42
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jaem	well, goodnight folks	15:43
jaem	or... well... morning, now	15:43
jaem	>_<	15:43
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javispedro	good night in irc local time	15:44
jaem	UGT? :P	15:44
javispedro	that.	15:44
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Anpr	heya, any news about n900 in uk ?	15:46
bleader	play.com still list it for 30th	15:46
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Anpr	heh	15:47
Anpr	i hear some rumour that it will be in flagship shop in london today	15:47
Anpr	heard	15:47
bleader	yeah I read this too somewhere	15:48
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Lorthirk	great, my n900 is on its way :D	15:49
bleader	it's shown as ready to be sent on french nokia website, haven't check the uk one lately	15:49
Anpr	Lorthirk are u from uk ? :)	15:49
Lorthirk	no Anpr, sorry... i'm from italy	15:49
Anpr	:)	15:49
Anpr	anyway it's cool, because something's going	15:50
Lorthirk	of course	15:50
* SpeedEvil wonders why italy gets it before UK.		15:50
* Anpr wonders as well		15:50
Lorthirk	i read across some italian forums, people has its credit cards billed	15:50
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SpeedEvil	nokia.co.uk store says 'week beginning 32nd november.	15:51
* Lorthirk wonders too, since usually Italy lags behind any others		15:51
SpeedEvil	err	15:51
SpeedEvil	23rd	15:51
bleader	Lorthirk: was it a pre-order ?	15:51
Lorthirk	no bleader	15:51
Anpr	so brithish people do, believe me :D	15:51
Lorthirk	ordered it today	15:51
bleader	on nokia's website ?	15:51
pupnik_	openarena is great, suggest auto-aim in y-axis only!!	15:52
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Lorthirk	yep	15:52
pupnik_	also allow player to quit game!	15:52
Lorthirk	with a gorgeous 20% off	15:52
pupnik_	no tax?	15:52
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bleader	Lorthirk: what's the original price in italy ?	15:53
Lorthirk	no, i had a coupon code	15:53
Lorthirk	599 but everyone's ordering it with a coupon code	15:53
lardman\|home	where's the dbus maestro qwerty?	15:53
Lorthirk	so i got it for 494 express shipping included	15:53
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bleader	Lorthirk: ok, thanks, it's 50 more in france... and I don't have a coupon, so I have to pay 649 euros if I want to order it now...	15:54
Lorthirk	honestly i think it's a f'n great deal :D	15:54
Lorthirk	different prices among europe?	15:54
Lorthirk	that's weird :\	15:54
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bleader	nop, only france	15:54
bleader	taxes and so on	15:54
Lorthirk	that's even more weird	15:54
bleader	yeah france !	15:54
javispedro	RST38h: did you order the DDP one after all?	15:54
Lorthirk	oh, ok	15:54
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Lorthirk	my iphone is starting to cry	15:55
Lorthirk	he knows he'll be replaced soon!	15:55
RST38h	javis: I did, a few weeks ago	15:55
bleader	That's why I lurking on play.com :) (and I would rather get a qwerty keyboard)	15:55
* Lorthirk mwahahahah		15:55
RST38h	javis: They took money from my bank account, then apparently put it back	15:55
RST38h	javis: $370 it was, I think	15:55
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javispedro	RST38h: and that's why I am considering ordering it now :D	15:55
RST38h	javis: You may end up buying two this way ;)))	15:56
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RST38h	javis: I would just keep watching the tmo thread for now	15:56
javispedro	RST38h: no, no, ordering it throught the ddp	15:56
javispedro	I've not done it yet.	15:56
RST38h	javis: Oh you have not ordered it through DDP yet? I guess it will not be bad to order	15:56
lardman\|home	javispedro: sorry I missed your pm	15:56
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javispedro	lardman: np, don't worry.	15:57
* javispedro goes to FN		15:57
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Anpr	now i wonder how do u get this coupon, Lorthirk ?	15:57
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lardman\|home	anyone got a link to how to open an URL using C dbus calls for Diablo?	16:13
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Lorthirk	Anprrr i read it on a forum, it seems it's a sort of "if you order something in november, your next order has 20% off"	16:16
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RST38h	lardman: You want the Tear thread on tmo, it is there	16:17
VDVsx	wazd, ping	16:17
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Stskeeps	not bad at 480$ n900 on amazon	16:18
RST38h	it is quickly getting into the same range as discount	16:20
RST38h	(DDP discount I mean)	16:20
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javispedro	yeah, and they have warranty.	16:20
SpeedEvil	I'm not sure selling without warranty is actually legal in much of the EU	16:22
gouverneur	Stskeeps: over here it doesnt get lower than $735.56 yet	16:22
lardman\|home	RST38h: thanks will take a look	16:22
gouverneur	what was discount for US?	16:22
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hrw	SpeedEvil: DDP ones have warranty. but for one week	16:24
Khertan	hrw: lol	16:25
hrw	anyway they look like vaporware	16:25
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Khertan	i'm not sure that they can do that in Europe ... as waranty must be more than 1 year for any product ... and with rebates too	16:25
SpeedEvil	hrw: yes - that's not actually legal	16:26
javispedro	yeah, you have a point.	16:26
SpeedEvil	(AIUI)	16:26
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SpeedEvil	Even the cooling off period for distance transactions in the UK is longer than that.	16:26
javispedro	IANAL ;)	16:26
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Stskeeps	i'd say DDP may be under another type of contract than typical retail though	16:29
viq	DDP ?	16:29
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javispedro	retail is retail -- im an individual.	16:30
Stskeeps	javispedro: i think some screwup may happen from the fact they're trying out b2b stuff for individuals..	16:31
Stskeeps	:P	16:31
Stskeeps	the whole not charging VAT is weird too :P	16:31
javispedro	that's already happening.	16:31
javispedro	yes.	16:31
Stskeeps	i mean, it makes sense b2b.	16:31
Stskeeps	but to individuals it doesn't	16:31
qwerty12	Stskeeps: Shh! They were trying to keep that quiet...	16:31
Stskeeps	mm	16:31
Stskeeps	:P	16:31
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lardman\|home	RST38h: should I be looking further than the Tear-specific dbus call?	16:33
lardman\|home	I hope so	16:34
javispedro	lardman: you have to do it through dbus? there's another method.	16:34
qwerty12	lardman\|home: If it's a file: hildon-mime	16:34
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lardman\|home	no, I have an URL	16:34
lardman\|home	yeah there's the osso stuff isn't there	16:34
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javispedro	hildon_uri_open and the like	16:35
lardman\|home	that works on Diablo?	16:35
javispedro	yeah	16:36
lardman\|home	any docs for that?	16:36
javispedro	I'd guess so.	16:36
javispedro	https://git.maemo.org/projects/drnoksnes/?p=drnoksnes;a=blob_plain;f=gui/about.c;hb=HEAD	16:36
javispedro	check the cb_url_response function.	16:36
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* javispedro must have copied that from somewhere since there's a unused gerror there.		16:37
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lardman\|home	the wonders of the underdocuemented hildon-mime lib	16:37
lardman\|home	qwerty12: what do you know about opening using MIME when the data is in memory?	16:38
qwerty12	I don't?	16:38
lardman\|home	oh, shame	16:39
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lardman\|home	e.g. I'd like to get the default handler to handle my vCard or iCal data	16:39
lardman\|home	etc	16:39
qwerty12	hildon_mime_open_file() works when you give it a path to a file...	16:40
javispedro	I guess you'll have to write to /tmp	16:41
javispedro	like Modest, doesn't it?	16:41
gouverneur	viq: DDP = Developer Device Program	16:41
lardman\|home	fair enough	16:41
viq	gouverneur: thank you	16:42
kalikiana	lardman\|home, I think you can use GIO for that	16:42
lardman\|home	GIO?	16:42
javispedro	GIO is fremantle only	16:42
qwerty12	kalikiana: Oh, BTW, thank you. You have no idea how long I've wished for a dpkg hook that did gtk-update-icon-cache =)	16:43
gouverneur	german nokia.de announces special deals at the online showroom for Nov. 24th, maybe there is a N900 special available, they did it with the n97, a few days after release there was a special offer available	16:43
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lardman\|home	http://www.giostockings.com/ ?	16:43
lardman\|home	first hit on Google...	16:43
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lardman\|home	more likely this I guess? ;) http://library.gnome.org/devel/gio/stable/	16:44
javispedro	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GIO_(GNOME)	16:44
kalikiana	lardman\|home, I was more thinking of g_app_info_get_default_for_type	16:44
kalikiana	qwerty12, I only learned about that feature recently, but it's quite nice :)	16:44
kalikiana	lardman\|home, yes, that's it	16:45
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lardman\|home	hmm, so my uri could be a string containing the vcard info then?	16:46
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lardman\|home	depends if vcard: is handled I guess	16:47
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kalikiana	lardman\|home, no, you would just query the right application for it	16:48
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kalikiana	unless that application is able to use data:// uris	16:49
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lardman\|home	kalikiana: hmm, so won't add anything over and above using the mime fns then?	16:49
lopz	hi ;/	16:49
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kalikiana	well, hildon_mime doesn't have a way to tell you which application handles what	16:49
kalikiana	so it does add something	16:50
lardman\|home	ah I see	16:50
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lardman\|home	I don't care about the app though, I just want the data handled by whatever is the default	16:50
kalikiana	then write it to a file in /temp	16:50
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Venomrush	3 USIM issue is now fixed it seems.	16:51
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Venomrush	in v2.2009.47-20	16:51
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hrw	Venomrush: and .47-20 will be available in 2010?	16:51
hrw	like it was with n810 bootloader fix when users had to wait months	16:52
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Venomrush	hrw, not sure mate	16:53
Venomrush	do you need any specific permission to gain access to testing firwmares?	16:53
Venomrush	i can't find this information anywhere	16:53
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Andy80	hi all	16:54
hrw	Venomrush: no idea about permissions. but that does not matter for me yet	16:54
Andy80	a friend of mine tried to register to maemo.org, he cannot receive the confirmation email so he cannot login and register for the Maemo Barcelona event... how can we solve this?	16:55
Venomrush	well rather than someone posting out the sim cards to test	16:55
Venomrush	wouldn't it be better to upload it somewhere private for testers	16:55
Venomrush	to confirm and verify the issue	16:55
pupnik_	ahhh chopin	16:55
Venomrush	Andy80, register with different username + email is the quickiest way	16:56
VDVsx	Andy80, it usually takes some time (maemo.org registration)	16:57
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VDVsx	or probably the confirmation email end up in the spam folder	16:58
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hrw	Andy80: and maemo.org is not so fast	16:58
Andy80	already checked spam...	16:59
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RST38h	Venomrush: I think you should take your helpful idea directly to Quim Gil	17:03
RST38h	Surely, he will be delighted to hear about it	17:03
* RST38h cackles		17:03
Venomrush	what's the best way to contact him	17:04
RST38h	Why, by email of course	17:05
Venomrush	I don't have his email	17:05
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RST38h	Should I teach you how to locate it?	17:06
Andy80	Venomrush: I sent him a travelling pigeoun once, but the poor animal died because of too cold, before landing to Helsinki :\	17:06
* qwerty12 sits down for Cyberstalking 101, by RST38h		17:06
Stskeeps	Venomrush: testing fws are normally under NDA and you need some degree of contractual relationship with nokia to get them	17:06
RST38h	Stskeeps: You are spoiling all the fun	17:07
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Venomrush	Stskeeps, that destroys the point of open source OS	17:07
Stskeeps	Venomrush: meh, open source..	17:07
RST38h	Venomrush: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=quim+gil+email	17:07
Stskeeps	Venomrush: it's a valid problematique though, why couldn't testing fw's technically be public	17:07
qwerty12	RST38h: Your class sucks	17:08
RST38h	qwerty: But, incredibly, it finds the needed email =)	17:08
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Stskeeps	(besides a pandoras box of gpl problems to provide source for every single one..)	17:08
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Venomrush	it didn't..	17:09
RST38h	really?	17:09
lardman	re	17:09
RST38h	Venomrush: The very first link is titled "Mailing List Archive: Maemo: quim.gil at nokia"	17:09
ccooke	... Hmm. I wonder how badly Dwarf Fortress would run on the n900 :-)	17:10
ccooke	(Leaving aside the fact that it's clossed source and x86 only for now)	17:10
Venomrush	ah cool	17:11
Venomrush	thought it was a mailing list from him	17:11
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hrw	Venomrush: testing firmwares can for example brick totally device in a way which will require JTAG access. do you have 1.8V jtag at home and know where to connect it in n900?	17:11
RST38h	ccooke: Wait. Somebody finally made a decent 3D roguelike?	17:11
* javispedro 's been billed by ddp		17:11
ccooke	RST38h: you've not heard of Dwarf Fortress?	17:11
javispedro	ah sigh.	17:11
RST38h	Nope	17:11
* RST38h is dull, as you all know		17:11
suihkulokki	RST38h: it is called WoW	17:11
suihkulokki	oh, wait, that is 3D MUD	17:12
hrw	javispedro: billed as 'got cash grabbed from card not just reserved/blocked'?	17:12
RST38h	suihkulokki: WoW is some kind of drugs, afaik	17:12
Venomrush	i wuoldn't mind buying the toolkit if it was available	17:12
ccooke	RST38h: Go read the story of Boatmurdered (which is old, from before DF became 3d... but funny)	17:12
javispedro	hrw: just reserved afai see.	17:12
* suihkulokki wonders why there is seemingly so little free/OSS opengl es code around		17:12
hrw	javispedro: thats normal. mine is at that state since 10 Nov	17:13
kirma	nice. my N900 delivery is in exception state in rotterdam...	17:13
muep__	there aren't many free opengl es implementations around	17:13
suihkulokki	2.0 variant especially	17:13
ccooke	Dwarf Fortress is the most scarily complete simulation game I have ever heard of. It's under heavy and active development, uses text mode in opengl and isn't particularly easy to learn. It's also pretty hard, but seriously well made.	17:13
Stskeeps	suihkulokki: one problematique could be that it evolved from copyrighted example code.. or the fact not many people have encountered gles2 on 'sane' systems :P	17:13
hrw	ccooke: but also it is closed and x86 only	17:13
ccooke	hrw: yes.	17:14
RST38h	suihkulokki: Most desktop people use OpenGL	17:14
ccooke	hrw: however, I'm considering using it over the network with X :-)	17:14
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javispedro	hrw: yeah, I was hoping they wouldn't do it seeing recent news.	17:14
javispedro	not much hw using oglesv2.0 on the wild.	17:15
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hrw	ccooke: that does not change situation. I do not have x86 with good, fast opengl	17:15
javispedro	iphone 3gs --> nobody uses it since it breaks apple dream's of backwards compatibility	17:15
hrw	ccooke: and my x86-64 may lack opengl 32bit libs	17:15
javispedro	pandora --> not released	17:15
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RST38h	javis: There is Symbian	17:16
javispedro	RST38h: does anybody code for symbian? ;)	17:16
adeus	only the mad ones	17:16
RST38h	Dwarf Fortress available for the Mac...hm	17:16
* RST38h laughs satanically		17:16
ccooke	hrw: ah, yes. http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/System_requirements	17:16
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RST38h	javis: [politely] yea, some people do...	17:17
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suihkulokki	javispedro: ah, I thought iphone had gles2 already in the 3g model	17:21
javispedro	well, gles2 is a feature of the SoC not of the baseband.	17:21
suihkulokki	re pandora, did they port any cool game yet we should steal^Wshare from them to extras?	17:22
hrw	suihkulokki: quake1/2? or they are alreaady present?	17:22
javispedro	RST38h: guess you're right, basically symbian was one of the first platforms with v2	17:23
RST38h	Actually, baseband chip is also a SoC	17:23
RST38h	Just a smaller and slower one	17:23
suihkulokki	hrw: Q3A	17:23
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Venomrush	firefox just crashed on me	17:25
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Stskeeps	get a real irc client by now :P	17:25
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Venomrush	hmm nah i prefer to use browser intergrated IRC :p	17:27
Venomrush	it seems Opera one is the best	17:27
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hrw	suihkulokki: in OpenEmbedded we have ioquake3, quake3-pandora-gles	17:34
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iDialekt	Hi	17:50
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Stskeeps	lardman: ping	17:54
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Stskeeps	lardman: mail for you	18:03
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lardman	Stskeeps: got it, thanks	18:08
lardman	Stskeeps: has it changed?	18:08
Stskeeps	i didn't have great success but please test on your end	18:08
lardman	will do	18:08
Stskeeps	i don't believe in my own setups after i opened my n810 so	18:08
Stskeeps	:P	18:08
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t_s_o	hmm, linux has spotty hardware support? http://www.infoworld.com/d/cloud-computing/why-chrome-os-will-fail-big-time-287	18:09
logics	http://www.infoworld.com/d/cloud-computing/why-chrome-os-will-fail-big-time-287	18:09
t_s_o	:P	18:09
logics	oops; "click to select" instead "clicked to paste" :)	18:10
wazd	Reheya all	18:10
* qwerty12 waves at wazd		18:10
zash	History repeats itself, it's the second comming of centralized computing and thinn clients!	18:11
mgedmin	only second?	18:11
suihkulokki	t_s_o: I get a big windows ad when cliking on that. makes wonder who paid for the article :P	18:12
lardman	how are mime types for random files determined?	18:12
t_s_o	zash: i suspect the reason why the first one failed, was that one could not have a always on connection to multiple systems	18:12
t_s_o	suihkulokki: did not see that, but then i have noscript installed...	18:12
lardman	suihkulokki: same here :D	18:12
* suihkulokki clicks on the ad to move more money away from redmond		18:13
zash	t_s_o: and/or that computers became cheep enouch so everyone could have one	18:13
SpeedEvil	zash: At least third	18:13
wazd	Somebody wrote me something	18:13
SpeedEvil	zash: Dumb serial terminals - X terminals	18:13
wazd	A while ago)	18:13
SpeedEvil	Maybe fourth.	18:13
t_s_o	zash: and good enough to run the then interesting apps, like spreadsheets ;)	18:13
SpeedEvil	Batch services where you submitted your program for running on the central computer from a desktop cardpunch	18:13
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t_s_o	i would say that the x terminals basically built on the older telnet/serial terminals, giving them a gui layer...	18:14
lardman	hmm, are there standard libraries which will handle things like mmsto: or vcard: or ical: ?	18:16
lardman	as a URI sort of thing?	18:16
wazd	qwerty12: how's it going with transmission?)	18:17
qwerty12	wazd: It's not, ATM - gonna look on the weekend :\	18:18
wazd	qwerty12: you're gonna be punished! I'm calling Roman :D	18:19
* lardman heads for home to do some mbarcode coding		18:19
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qwerty12	wazd: NOOOO!!! :p	18:19
Shapeshifter	gouverneur: I'm from switzerland.	18:21
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wazd	qwerty12: we'll see your behavoiur after 24 hours of balalayka music!	18:23
qwerty12	letmeoutletmeoutletmeout	18:23
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VDVsx	-testing is down again ? :(	18:24
mmatth	anybody having problems in sbox with gdb crashing when it is reading symbols for libQtGui.so.4 ?	18:25
VDVsx	mmatth, the default one is kinda broken	18:26
pupnik_	should we even bother filing bugs we can't repeat?	18:26
VDVsx	try to compile and use 0.7 version	18:26
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pupnik_	somehow i prefer talking direct to software authors	18:27
VDVsx	S/0.7/7.0/	18:27
mmatth	still feeling my way around with open-source, i should compile & install 0.7 version of gdb? can you give me a quick tip on where to find the source for the 0.7 version?	18:27
adeus	7.0 indeed	18:27
adeus	0.7 is quite old :)	18:28
pupnik_	apt-get source	18:28
VDVsx	adeus, eheh	18:28
pupnik_	if you can't pull in binaries, grab source from debian	18:28
pupnik_	is what i did	18:28
adeus	even the default one hasn't crashed on me though	18:28
mmatth	thanks	18:28
jaska	0.7 would be over 23 years old	18:29
VDVsx	adeus, I've seen a lot of ppl complaining about it	18:29
Klowner	hmm, amazon changed the price again?	18:30
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: where? aunt is in Berner Oberland and mum Oberer Zurisee	18:30
Khertan	no voluntary to port to fremantle a git version which work with garage ?	18:30
pupnik_	oh a real keyboard is such a luxury after a day of thumbs	18:30
Shapeshifter	gouverneur: zürcher oberland ;)	18:31
VDVsx	mmatth, adeus , from the wiki: "Note: Fremantle X86 Gdb crashes. Using gdb 7.0 is recommended. "	18:31
VDVsx	http://wiki.maemo.org/Qt^	18:31
adeus	I've managed to dodge the bullets hen	18:31
adeus	then	18:31
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adeus	..and used the harmattan repos recently :P	18:32
adeus	someone should port valgrind for arm	18:32
gouverneur	Shapeshifter: ;)	18:33
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pupnik_	42-11 "Call With Skype" yields "Incorrect Address" even with a + at beginning of number	18:36
ccooke	pupnik_: have you enabled calling phones?	18:39
ccooke	settings / im and voip accounts / your skyp account / settings	18:39
pupnik_	oh not that i recall	18:39
pupnik_	skype says enabled	18:40
ccooke	right, that's a bug then :-)	18:40
pupnik_	ah enable calling phones is enabled	18:40
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pupnik_	dint see that ty	18:41
pupnik_	maybe my free calls arent activated	18:41
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pupnik_	summit world package appears active	18:42
pupnik_	either bug or bad err message	18:44
pupnik_	tz	18:44
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lardman	re	18:44
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* GeneralAntilles sighs at DDP.		18:50
* GeneralAntilles wonders if Nokia realizes treating contributors like crap is not a good way to encourage future contribution.		18:51
derf	GA: I doubt they realize they're treating them like crap.	18:51
lardman	very very odd, mbarcode on diablo now looks hildonised	18:51
derf	lardman: Oh, so it works on Diablo now?	18:51
Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: well, at least it seems like the DDP experiment with community people didn't work out well so far :P	18:52
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GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, unfortunately we seem to be loosing a lot of good people in the process.	18:52
lardman	derf: yeah sorry been busy decorating	18:52
lardman	derf: but yes, just testing the url open code now	18:53
derf	No worries, I've been pretty busy also.	18:53
lardman	I want to spin off all the data handling to other apps, as I hate writing webscraper code	18:53
kirma	GeneralAntilles: maybe Nokia is trying to compete with Apple	18:53
derf	I don't blame you.	18:53
lardman	plus then I might get a chance to look at the libdmtx code, which is far too slow for my liking	18:53
GeneralAntilles	kirma, hey, Apple just replaced my 5-year-old G5 with a brand new Mac Pro.	18:54
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lardman	and you were still bitching iirc ;)	18:55
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GeneralAntilles	Sure, because it was a pain in the ass, but at least I knew whether I was getting a warranty with it. ;)	18:55
lardman	I know, just pulling your leg	18:56
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GeneralAntilles	Anyway, what Apple does isn't really relevant.	18:56
GeneralAntilles	The fact is, we've got several people threatening to move to other platforms over it.	18:56
GeneralAntilles	This is not the situation that a discount program like that should create.	18:56
lardman	yep, quite	18:56
lardman	hmm, hildon_uri_open() seems to do nothing much on Diablo	18:57
GeneralAntilles	It's the OPPOSITE of the effect we're after, actually.	18:57
JamieBennett	X-Fade: you around?	18:57
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lardman	hey JamieBennett	18:57
JamieBennett	hey lardman	18:57
GeneralAntilles	JamieBennett, he's on vacation.	18:57
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lardman	how's things?	18:57
JamieBennett	:(	18:57
lbt	JamieBennett: ..... videos?	18:58
JamieBennett	yep	18:58
lbt	problems?	18:58
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JamieBennett	need some space to upload Zeeshan's video as I can't convert it here for Vimeo	18:59
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zaheerm	wow is the builder stalled or something	19:01
zaheerm	i can see like 8 apps queued for the fremantle builder	19:01
* lardman wonders if X-Fade left an "only call in an emergency" number... :)		19:01
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lardman	zaheerm: I pushed a package earlier today to Diablo	19:02
qwerty12	Explains it	19:02
JamieBennett	apparently Zeeshan needs the video quick, I have it down to a 55mb .avi but I can't upload to vimeo here (can convert it to the right format it seems) and its 80$ to send it through the post.	19:02
lardman	tho there were loads in the fremantle queue then too	19:02
lardman	qwerty12: :p	19:03
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JamieBennett	Are _any_ Nokia guys (or gals) around now?	19:03
zaheerm	JamieBennett, you can upload to a free dropbox account	19:03
zaheerm	JamieBennett, and share it with zeeshan	19:03
JamieBennett	ah, me goes to look	19:03
lardman	otherwise I can upload to to my (uni) webserver	19:04
JamieBennett	I still need to get it to you though lardman	19:04
lardman	yeah exactly	19:04
zaheerm	lardman, there are packages from 5 hours ago	19:04
lardman	zaheerm: hmm, perhaps qwerty12 was right ;)	19:05
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lardman	has anyone successfully used hildonmime?	19:05
zaheerm	JamieBennett, dropbox give you 2GB free	19:05
lardman	or is that why we all use libosso to access the browser?	19:05
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zaheerm	how do i make python packages make a noarch package rather than an i386/armel one?	19:07
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VDVsx	zaheerm, the builder was kicked a will ago, should be working fine now	19:07
VDVsx	S/will/while/	19:08
zaheerm	VDVsx, it is dying that it needs a will? :)	19:08
VDVsx	but -testing seems down anyway :(	19:08
lardman	probably needs to be put out of it's misery and restarted	19:08
qwerty12	zaheerm: Off the top of my head, Architecture: All and use the binary-indep in rules instead of binary-arch	19:08
lardman	s/it's/its	19:09
lardman	argh, bloody Garage is like molasses too	19:09
andre__	anybody knows a page anywhere that lists the Bluetooth skills of the N900? Like DUN, Object Push, Generic Object Exchange, Serial Port, ...? http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/specifications/ does not	19:10
Stskeeps	andre__: out of curiousity, what bug are you glancing at?	19:10
VDVsx	X-Fade, please come back sooonnnnnn	19:11
qwerty12	VDVsx: Get SuperTux on the case	19:11
andre__	Stskeeps, https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5550	19:11
povbot	Bug 5550: "Not enough memory in target location" when receiving image from Nokia SU-1B using Bluetooth	19:11
VDVsx	andre__, yup forum nokia	19:11
andre__	i think it's invalid (or: not supported)	19:11
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VDVsx	qwerty12, humm ?	19:11
qwerty12	VDVsx: Make Tux find X-Fade and bring him back :p	19:12
VDVsx	lol	19:12
VDVsx	andre__, A2DP, AVRCP, FTP, HFP, HSP, OPP	19:13
VDVsx	from: http://www.forum.nokia.com/devices/N900/	19:13
andre__	ah, found it in the on-device docu too	19:13
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andre__	haha, thanks :)	19:13
* andre__ bookmarks		19:13
lbt	JamieBennett: ping me later...	19:15
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JamieBennett	lbt: trying to upload to youtube as a last resort	19:15
VDVsx	andre__, seems a bug to me, if that 'device' only needs obex stuff	19:15
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andre__	VDVsx, i'm unsure. the webpage for that device does not list the N900	19:16
andre__	as supported	19:16
VDVsx	eheh: "send handwritten MMS messages to a compatible phone or email address"	19:17
Shapeshifter	mhh, invisible shield is now available.	19:17
VDVsx	lol	19:17
Shapeshifter	http://www.zagg.com/invisibleshield/nokia-n900-cases-screen-protectors-covers-skins-shields.php	19:17
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Shapeshifter	for those who care.	19:17
qwerty12	andre__: But if it supports the N800...	19:17
lardman	andre__: what is the device?	19:17
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lardman	oh bug?	19:18
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VDVsx	lardman, http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/accessories/all-accessories/home-and-office/wireless-digital-pens/su-1b	19:18
VDVsx	weird stuff to me :P	19:18
lardman	hmm, cool, send me one and I'll debug ;)	19:18
andre__	qwerty12, but not the N810 (according to that list)	19:19
andre__	lardman, kind of a pen to write, and it sends the data per bluetooth i think	19:19
lardman	yeah, looks sort of cool	19:19
Xisdibik	Good morning Maemoers	19:19
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VDVsx	andre__, if it sends a image, why it needs 3 different BT profiles, lol	19:20
VDVsx	actually 4	19:21
andre__	VDVsx, big shrug :-D	19:21
lardman	hmm, DUN, interesting	19:21
* andre__ going through his bugmail backlog		19:22
Flandry	Still stuck with one vote for testing :/	19:23
dmj7262	has anyone tried the mobile vimeo site on n900?	19:24
wirelessdreamer	dmj7262: n900 choked on hulu when I tried it at the meetup	19:24
VDVsx	Flandry, app ?	19:25
lardman	argh, why can't I get the browser to open an URL on my N810?!	19:25
Flandry	uqm	19:25
dmj7262	nevermind...the mobile site has limited selection apparently	19:25
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abstract3d	HELLO MAEMO! :p	19:26
lardman	qwerty12: can you remember which code you pointed me at long ago?	19:26
qwerty12	lardman: searching for "tablet-browser-interface.h" perhaps	19:27
lardman	ok will try that in a tick	19:27
lardman	thanks btw	19:27
GeneralAntilles	Flandry, does it pause in the background?	19:28
Flandry	yes	19:28
Flandry	i added that	19:28
Flandry	it throttles down all threads and pauses game when it loses focus	19:28
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GeneralAntilles	Anyone else who's tested can vote here: http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/uqm/0.6.7-0maemo/	19:30
lardman	rubbish, I needed a com.lardman. in front of my mbarcode	19:30
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lardman	so the browser is open at least, but not at the right url	19:30
* RST38h moos thoughtfully		19:30
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qwerty12	lardman: It assumes "com.nokia." otherwise, which doesn't work if your service file doesn't have the same...	19:31
lardman	ah I see	19:31
GeneralAntilles	Yeesh, it's like voting by mail.	19:31
lardman	makes some sense now	19:31
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derf	What's wrong with voting by mail?	19:31
RST38h	HELO, qwerty, lardman, derf, General	19:31
derf	RST38h: HI THERE.	19:31
lardman	hi RST38h	19:31
Flandry	yes, thanks GeneralAntilles	19:32
qwerty12	Hiya, RST38h	19:32
GeneralAntilles	derf, I don't have unlimited free time? ;)	19:32
VDVsx	derf, hey, thanks for the help in the other day, with the dbus stuff :)	19:32
derf	VDVsx: Yer welcome. Did you finally get it working?	19:33
VDVsx	derf, yes, actually there's a file with the default session saved:)	19:34
VDVsx	/tmp/session_bus_address.user ^	19:34
qwerty12	VDVsx: Is it too late to mention that prefixing sudo with "run-standalone.sh" will also work?	19:34
Shapeshifter	GeneralAntilles: you're suggesting boxwave. Have you ever compared it to an invisible shield? And, it the boxwave as scratch resitant as the IS?	19:34
VDVsx	qwerty12, in the device ? lol	19:35
qwerty12	VDVsx: Yep :)	19:35
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derf	Hah, apparently so.	19:35
GeneralAntilles	Shapeshifter, friend of mine had one, they're OK, but a pain in the ass to apply and I can't say I care for the texture.	19:36
VDVsx	qwerty12, lol , oh my	19:36
zaheerm	VDVsx, builder still looks stuck	19:36
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VDVsx	qwerty12, now I already have code to grab the session, will try in the next version :P	19:37
hrw	have a nice weekend guys	19:37
qwerty12	Hehe	19:37
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VDVsx	zaheerm, it's slow	19:37
qwerty12	You too, hrw	19:37
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lardman	bye hrw\|gone, you too	19:38
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Shapeshifter	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHde1oYCbXg&feature=related wtf I'll not lend my phone to this guy	19:38
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VDVsx	zaheerm, my package submitted last night was built a while ago, so it's working :P	19:39
Shapeshifter	what a moron.	19:39
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VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, you've a MAC right ?	19:40
GeneralAntilles	Media Access Control?	19:40
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VDVsx	yes	19:41
VDVsx	lol	19:41
VDVsx	no a Mac	19:41
VDVsx	:P	19:41
GeneralAntilles	Yes.	19:41
lardman	balls, why is my callback data now empty	19:41
lardman	rubbish	19:41
* lardman goes to the pub		19:41
lardman	cu all later	19:41
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VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, can you test something from me, it's easy and only take a while	19:42
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GeneralAntilles	VDVsx, what?	19:42
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qwerty12	VDVsx: "only take a while" is not a good way of convincing someone to do something :p	19:42
VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, bluemaemo 3.8 (-testing), you've to remove any previous pairing between the n900 and the Mac	19:43
VDVsx	qwerty12, I know my English sucks :P	19:43
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* GeneralAntilles will bring a phrasebook from the US for VDVsx. :P		19:44
qwerty12	VDVsx: Gah, it's fine; I was just taking the piss :p	19:44
VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, thanks ;)	19:44
VDVsx	lol	19:44
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rrr__	eek!	19:45
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VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, the package is in -devel, my bad	19:46
rrr__	im missing the hildonmm header	19:46
GeneralAntilles	It just keeps getting more complicated. . . .	19:46
VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, be prepared because the UI is unfinished	19:46
VDVsx	:P	19:47
qwerty12	GeneralAntilles: quit yo jibba jabba, fool: http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/dists/fremantle/install/bluemaemo.install	19:47
VDVsx	oh that's new for me o_0	19:48
GeneralAntilles	The Release file is screwed up again.	19:48
Shapeshifter	mh. I think I'll buy accidental insurance for my n900 anyway. If I scratch it too hard, I could just wash it or something, and get a replacement for 30 bucks.	19:48
qwerty12	Ouch	19:48
Shapeshifter	I wonder though if I'd actually do that.	19:48
GeneralAntilles	Shapeshifter, nothing to scratch but the screen, just get a protector. ;)	19:48
VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, ah and I changed the section as you suggested :)	19:49
* VDVsx needs to close some bugs		19:49
GeneralAntilles	lol	19:49
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GeneralAntilles	VDVsx, well, I'll test it as soon as -devel comes back.	19:50
VDVsx	again :(	19:51
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aSIMULAtor	good evening	19:53
VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, is just to see if the connection stuff is working properly with Mac :)	19:53
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VDVsx	aSIMULAtor, hey	19:53
VDVsx	:)	19:53
aSIMULAtor	hello my portugese distant relative	19:53
aSIMULAtor	:P	19:53
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Shapeshifter	lol people on the forums..... "will chrome OS run on the n900?"	19:54
Pavlov	lol	19:54
Shapeshifter	what kind of question is that, and why would people care >.>	19:54
GeneralAntilles	Shapeshifter, same reason they want Android.	19:54
adeus	"yes if you make it to run on it"	19:54
GeneralAntilles	They're silly people.	19:54
adeus	"here is the source, make the necessary adjustments"	19:55
VDVsx	aSIMULAtor, lol	19:55
\|R	well, the more OS choice, the better the platform?	19:55
Shapeshifter	GeneralAntilles: well android at least is a bit more then a crap linux distro.	19:55
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VDVsx	adeus ++	19:55
JamieBennett	sorted, Zeeshan's talk is processing at http://www.blip.tv/file/2875261/	19:55
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* JamieBennett goes back to the discussions		19:55
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GeneralAntilles	Damn incomprehensible Nokia travel agent emails.	19:57
GeneralAntilles	Where's that damn decoder ring. . . .	19:57
VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, I'm receiving a lot of spam from them, about strikes all over Spain, lol	19:58
VDVsx	and also got one warning about ETA , hihih	19:58
GeneralAntilles	Hooray for 9 hour flights.	19:58
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VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, too short :p	19:59
GeneralAntilles	Second leg is 3 hours.	19:59
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Stskeeps	GeneralAntilles: at least you don't have to wait for passport this time	19:59
Stskeeps	:P	19:59
GeneralAntilles	Indeed	19:59
VDVsx	my return trip from SF was 20+ :)	20:01
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VDVsx	ouch they used a steady cam that only filmed half of the projection (@ summit videos) :(	20:02
GeneralAntilles	Steady cam or tripod?	20:03
Stskeeps	the sound is like that on all recordings?	20:03
Stskeeps	could be worse..	20:03
Stskeeps	:P	20:03
VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, something like that, dunno	20:04
VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, where you connection ? London ?	20:04
VDVsx	*your	20:04
GeneralAntilles	VDVsx, assuming it's not one of these. :P http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/public/product_images/altimage/22%2009%202006steadicam_flyer_1.jpg	20:04
GeneralAntilles	JFK	20:04
VDVsx	GeneralAntilles, no the second leg	20:05
GeneralAntilles	Tampa to JFK to Barcelona	20:06
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andre__	summit videos? in public? where?	20:10
GeneralAntilles	http://jamiebennett.blip.tv/posts?view=archive&nsfw=dc	20:11
GeneralAntilles	The Bug Jar lightning talk is good.	20:11
qwerty12	"nsfw=dc"?	20:11
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andre__	uh	20:12
andre__	shweet	20:12
GeneralAntilles	qwerty12, lots and lots of porn. Click the link.	20:12
qwerty12	"Elisator for cow's health analisys - Manrique Lopez" - now this sounds sexy	20:12
qwerty12	Cow? Check. Anal? Check	20:12
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Xisdibik	porn? where?	20:14
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Xisdibik	qwerty12: your missing out on the sheep	20:14
* qwerty12 blames libhildonfm for fucking with his mind		20:15
qwerty12	Heh	20:15
sgbirch	I just called Vodafone to see if I can get a tether plan so I dont have the 500M limit they put on theunlimit plan	20:15
sgbirch	no	20:15
sgbirch	is there a better cell corp for data	20:15
Xisdibik	O2?	20:16
* Xisdibik has no idea, just said it cuzit was in his head		20:16
sgbirch	ok	20:16
sgbirch	Xisdibik: lol	20:16
sgbirch	I have been happy with vodafone .. but they dont seem to like data	20:16
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SpeedEvil	sgbirch: where are you?	20:18
SpeedEvil	sgbirch: uk?	20:18
sgbirch	uk	20:18
SpeedEvil	sgbirch: You on contract ATM?	20:18
sgbirch	but I work in the US . .. so I need a solution for both corps	20:18
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SpeedEvil	ah	20:19
sgbirch	contrect expired in both contries	20:19
sgbirch	vodafone in uk and T-Mobile is usa	20:19
hexa_	hi there small question . could someone point me to some doc about sending/receiving sms on maemo 5 ... can't find it in the dev guide it seems ?	20:19
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SpeedEvil	sgbirch: Do you do normal calls - or just data?	20:21
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sgbirch	normal + data	20:21
andre__	hexa_, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=33597 ?	20:21
hexa_	andre__, thx! :)	20:21
andre__	hexa_, well... just a starting point. don't think it'll cover all you need :-/	20:21
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hexa_	andre__, np that's what I needed	20:22
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wjt	hexa_: i think there's convenience API on the messaging UI to do this	20:23
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SpeedEvil	sgbirch: how many months are you int he UK?	20:24
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sgbirch	6	20:25
hexa_	wjt, humm k I guess I'll have some code reading to do hehe	20:25
sgbirch	oh .. UK .. 3	20:25
wjt	hexa_: hmm, doesn't look like there is	20:25
sgbirch	SpeedEvil: 3	20:25
hexa_	wjt, hehe k np.. It should not be that bad if I can with telepathy	20:26
SpeedEvil	sgbirch: I would be looking at tesco IIRC they offer good value for pay-as-you-go - when you want months of service at a time.	20:26
SpeedEvil	sgbirch: they offer a 'triple your top-up' - which would work well	20:26
sgbirch	cool	20:26
Milo-	andre__ oh my gosh, why did you link to a topic that is so horribly written? capitalizing each word's first letter is just as unbearable as all caps.	20:26
sgbirch	who is the provider though, tesco doesnt have a network	20:26
SpeedEvil	sgbirch: I suspect generally that a contract is not going to work well for you. Dunno.	20:26
RST38h	Milo: And Why Is That?	20:26
andre__	Milo-, I think that two people (and me) told that guy already :)	20:27
SpeedEvil	sgbirch: the provider may not sell that tarrif directly.	20:27
andre__	B0rked Auto-Kapitalization Maybe? Shrug. :-P	20:27
wjt	hexa_: the short version is… find the ring account, get a text channel to the number, send your message, close it up	20:27
Milo-	just bloody annoying	20:27
hexa_	wjt, seems simple enought :)	20:27
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sgbirch	SpeedEvil: I have used contract with both corps but hate them. Want to move to payg	20:29
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sgbirch	SpeedEvil: My kids are on that, it seems much better and cheaper	20:30
sgbirch	SpeedEvil: also seems cheaper to buy a phone	20:30
sgbirch	SpeedEvil: once you compute complete cost	20:30
RST38h	"As revealed by Crunchgear, Jobs recently sent an 11-word email to an longtime Mac developer who had come groveling to the cult leader after being threatened by a band of Apple lawyers."	20:31
SpeedEvil	sgbirch: perhaps.	20:31
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Milo-	can you compile your source code _using_ your n900?	20:31
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RST38h	(this is treated as the Second Coming in the news, of course)	20:31
SpeedEvil	sgbirch: If you're in the UK all the time, tehre are possibly better ways	20:31
SpeedEvil	Milo-: yes	20:31
Milo-	or do you have to develop and compile all code in the SDK?	20:31
qwerty12	lcukn900: Can you compile your source code _using_ your n900?	20:31
SpeedEvil	Milo-: I don't know if there is a pre-prepared package to do that though.	20:31
lcukn900	oooer xchat in extras-dev doesnt like changing the font	20:31
andre__	still xchat quite rocks for the n900, compared to the n810 version :-P	20:32
qwerty12	lcukn900: It's buggy as fuck, better off downgrading at the moment	20:32
Milo-	SpeedEvil okay, because the SDK isn't compatible with amd64 as far as I know :/	20:32
GeneralAntilles	Everybody blame qwerty12!	20:33
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JohnHoe	Who?	20:33
andre__	tss.	20:33
lcukn900	lol qwerty	20:34
lcukn900	no not best off downgrading	20:34
* Shapeshifter just ordered a bl-5j battery from ebay.		20:34
lcukn900	is the bugtracker up and running	20:34
Milo-	kind of annoying if I have to create a 32bit environment just to build my code :(	20:34
Shapeshifter	for 4.60$ I wonder if it is _any_ good at all.	20:34
lcukn900	not just to pressure you, but so folks can help	20:34
GeneralAntilles	Good for blowing up your N900.	20:35
JohnHoe	Shapeshifter: A very lightweight paper weight?	20:35
lcukn900	milo im annoyed about 64bit atm lol	20:35
lcukn900	wanna swap	20:35
lcukn900	i need big fonts	20:35
Milo-	64bit is no problem ._·	20:35
RST38h	Shapeshifter: It will make a good firecracker	20:35
lcukn900	if i edit the config manually does it change	20:35
Milo-	32bit is a problem :(	20:35
JohnHoe	lcukn900: Yessir	20:36
Milo-	I left those days ages ago	20:36
lcukn900	64bit is not comfortable with scratchbox	20:36
lcukn900	or rather makes everything moar tricky	20:36
Shapeshifter	Well, actually, I've read nowhere that cheap batteries really are any risk to anything. I strongly suspect it willget duff mutch quicker, but for 5 bucks...	20:36
Milo-	lcukn900 well that's what I understood	20:36
Shapeshifter	as a backup...	20:36
Milo-	I couldn't get the SDK to work on 64bit	20:37
lcukn900	wheres the file and can sed change kt	20:37
lcukn900	ive got no editor on device	20:37
adeus	I used it for a while	20:37
lcukn900	milo whats needing you in 32bit then	20:37
adeus	some manual labor required but it's possible	20:37
Milo-	huh?	20:38
Milo-	could you re-elaborate?	20:38
Milo-	my inner interpreter failed	20:38
Shapeshifter	and sometimes the cheap aftermarket batteries are actually the same	20:39
Shapeshifter	same OEM supplier as the original.	20:39
ali1234	Shapeshifter: $5 is about what batteries actually cost. it will be posted to you from china of course, even if the seller is local to you.	20:39
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Shapeshifter	ali1234: yeah, hong kong.	20:39
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Sargun	Don't they put the gas gauge in the battery these days?	20:42
Shapeshifter	ali1234: well, it's actually 1 cent at the moment, the rest 4.59$ is shipping.	20:42
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Shapeshifter	apple fans can be quite a bother	20:51
Shapeshifter	they're bots, mostly.	20:51
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PaulFertser	Sargun: do you mean coloumb counter like in gta02?	20:52
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Sargun	PaulFertser, yeah.	20:53
PaulFertser	Sargun: it looks like nokia hardware engineers are just imaginary ghosts, i've never seen one on irc. So there's nobody to answer your question ;)	20:53
PaulFertser	Sargun: you should have stayed with your gta02 ;)	20:53
Sargun	hahaha	20:53
Sargun	PaulFertser, Our GTA02s have an uptime of a year	20:54
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PaulFertser	Sargun: impressing. Can you probably post some kind of a "success story" to the community ML to cheer up the crowd a bit?	20:55
Sargun	Yeah, then we abandoned them because their modems were fried	20:55
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PaulFertser	Sargun: that's even more interesting and important	20:56
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PaulFertser	Sargun: care to elaborate? Probably it's too OT here, i invite you somewhere else.	20:56
Sargun	PaulFertser, Yes, maybe one of these days I'll draft an email	20:56
Sargun	#openmoko-cdevel ?	20:56
mikedep333	hey all, I'm a US customer of AT&T and I am thinking of buying the unlocked N900	20:56
mikedep333	I cannot get a data plan however	20:56
mikedep333	does anyone know if the N900 is usable with wi-fi only?	20:57
Pavlov	it is	20:57
mikedep333	Pavlov, any more details?	20:57
qwerty12_N810	mikedep333: Mine is SIM-less ATM	20:57
PaulFertser	Sargun: yep, whereever you want, probably #openmoko	20:57
kalikiana	mikedep333, you can even use it without any mobile network	20:57
qwerty12_N810	mikedep333: I can still go online and everything	20:57
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qwerty12_N810	(Using Wi-Fi)	20:57
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mikedep333	I had to mess around with my Nokia 5800 XM to make it do mail for exchange only with wi-fi, not with mobile data	20:58
mikedep333	ok, thanks	20:58
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mikedep333	amazon just lowered the price to $480 USD after rebate	20:58
mikedep333	I can't find an another unlocked cortex A8 phone for anywhere near the price	20:58
kalikiana	the mobile network also has a different icon when it asks for a connection if you use a sim for phone only	20:59
kalikiana	ie. you can easily see it	20:59
mikedep333	gotcha	20:59
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mikedep333	amazon doesn't list when they'll ship it. It's shipping December 1st or so in the US, right?	21:01
ali1234	how do i get the GLES 1.1 on to the n900? (i mean libGLES_CM.so)	21:01
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ali1234	libgles1-sgx-img: Depends: opengles-sgx-img-common (= 0.20090218.55.9+0m5) but 0.20090218.55.1+0m5 is to be installed	21:03
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ali1234	heh, that's blocking me from installing ioquake3 too	21:06
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yerga	ali1234, what firmware version do you have?	21:07
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ali1234	not updated yet	21:07
yerga	ali1234, then you should update	21:07
ali1234	i wanted to test ogre3d before updating	21:07
ali1234	because then if i ruin it, well, i'm going to update anyway	21:07
yerga	ali1234, it worked fine here with 42-11	21:08
ali1234	yeah	21:08
ali1234	it doesn't inspire much confidence anyway	21:08
mikedep333	anyone? the N900's US release date?	21:08
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ali1234	i mean are the repos basically going to break every tme there's a firmware update?	21:09
mikedep333	never mind, found it	21:09
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ali1234	and what's the point of using apt anyway if you're going to make monolithic firmware images?	21:10
* Jaffa wonders how much of Children in Need he'll have to watch to see Doctor Who snippet		21:13
andre__	there's also 3rd party software out there	21:13
andre__	ali1234: as it's monolithic images switching to some proprietary stuff instead of apt makes sense? ;-)	21:14
ali1234	so apt is just for 3rd party developers, who are continuously at the whim of nokia to not screw it up by a firmware update?	21:14
PaulFertser	ali1234: and what is the point in assuming nokia wants to use a sane strategy for updates? Once i was told that nokia doesn't target any users that can compile kernels (or know how to use apt-get/apt-cache). It looks very true given the strange hybrid update system they used for Nxx0.	21:14
Jaffa	ali1234: Most updates are shipped via apt, but during pre-production it's easier to ship whole images	21:14
ali1234	because that's how it feels	21:15
andre__	later on-the-fly updates do use apt.	21:15
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andre__	however reflashing with a new image will use less memory IIRC	21:15
woglinde	jo	21:15
Jaffa	ali1234: "continuously at the whim" suggests Nokia are either malicious or secretive. When they know that 3rd party devs make the platform.	21:16
PaulFertser	andre__: what about the "Seamless Software Update"? Is it a sane way to update an apt-based distro in your opinion?	21:17
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woglinde	thats a funny dns	21:17
woglinde	host81-155-227-189.range81-155.btcentralplus.com	21:17
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Shapeshifter	have any of you tried running synergy on the n900?	21:18
ali1234	Shapeshifter: yes i have, it didn't work because of missing x libs	21:18
Shapeshifter	ali1234: mhh. okay.	21:18
andre__	PaulFertser: I simply don't have enough technical knowledge to comment whether it's good or bad. From a user point I think it is quite flawless normally (not: always) and hence nice	21:18
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GAN900	mikedep333, why no data?	21:19
GAN900	It's only $15/mo with a voice plan.	21:19
ali1234	Jaffa: it suggests nothing except the repos are currently broken for anyone who is not running the latest and greatest firmware, and there's no guarantee this won't happen again, perhaps 12 months after release, when the device is in the hands of people who don't know what a firmware update even is.	21:19
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GAN900	ali1234, you're running pre-release software.	21:20
GAN900	Get over it.	21:20
GAN900	Software update notifications appear automatically.	21:20
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PaulFertser	andre__: have you ever used Debian or any other distro? Do they use any strange dirty tricks like that to update the system?	21:20
ali1234	it is a small step from "you're running pre-release software, get over it" to "you're running out of date software, get over it" to "your users are running out of date software, get over it"	21:20
GAN900	All the user has to do is tap a couple of buttons.	21:20
ali1234	actually, software update notifications don't appear automatically for system libraries, which is exactly what is broken in this case	21:21
* GAN900 sighs.		21:21
andre__	installing ioquake also did not work with 47-18 yesterday because of the opengl dep issue	21:21
ali1234	neither do they appear for firmware images	21:21
GAN900	System libs will never be updated without an SSU update beong released.	21:21
ali1234	unless they're 3rd party	21:21
andre__	ali1234, how comes you now that they don't appear?	21:21
andre__	s/now/know	21:21
qwerty12_N810	andre__: Serves you right :-P	21:21
GAN900	and, really, this is and ioq3 packaging issue.	21:21
PaulFertser	GAN900: what is SSU anyway? Why doesn't it come with the usual apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade?	21:22
andre__	qwerty12_N810: hey, i just wanted to play an egoshooter while my g/f was sleeping next to me. quite normal, eh? :-P	21:22
GAN900	It's a metapackage that updates the system software.	21:22
ali1234	andre__: because i set up my own repo, uploaded a system lib to it (which was not marked with an extras/* section as per the guidelines) and then uploaded an updated version, and i was not notified of the update on the device	21:22
GAN900	For a variety of largely legacy reasons.	21:22
ali1234	the only way i could install it was to do it manually with apt-get	21:23
andre__	qwerty12_N810, argh. "first person shooter" i mean. i think only the stupid germans call it "egoshooter"...	21:23
qwerty12_N810	andre__: No, it's totally wrong. To redeem yourself, share the images :p	21:23
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qwerty12_N810	:)	21:23
GAN900	ali1234, that's a good way to break things for your users.	21:23
RST38h	egoshooter sounds better	21:23
ali1234	GAN900: yes it is, isnt it?	21:23
annoia	Which repository do I need to get libpython?	21:23
andre__	qwerty12_N810, i only took one and there's no nudity, so probably not too interesting for you ;-)	21:23
RST38h	btw there is a homebrewn 3d gmame called Egoboo =)	21:23
PaulFertser	GAN900: i thought that all major distros managed to update without using weird unexpected ways, didn't they?	21:23
annoia	It doesn't seem to be in any of the ones I have available	21:23
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* GAN900 can see he's not going to get anywhere in these silly discussions.		21:24
qwerty12_N810	andre__: ROFL! I actually meant firmware images, but sure... :D	21:24
andre__	ali1234: I don't think that overwriting system packages from some weird 3rd party repo should be ever supported by SSU ;-)	21:24
andre__	qwerty12_N810, sure you did, sure. We all believe you... ;-)	21:24
ali1234	andre__: why would i want to overwrite system packages	21:24
andre__	you just stated that.	21:24
andre__	don't know.	21:24
ali1234	as usual, you are not listening to what people are actually saying	21:24
ali1234	consider the case where i package some library which is NOT a system library	21:25
GeneralAntilles	ali1234, hypocrite.	21:25
ali1234	some random library, libfoo	21:25
andre__	ali1234: ah, "as usual". thanks for knowing me so well, dear unknown stranger ;-)	21:25
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ali1234	then, somebody else make a package which uses it	21:25
PaulFertser	GAN900: it's not a discussion. I honestly do not understand. And i assume many other users too. maemo.wiki.org doesn't tell the reasons unfortunately. What should i google to finally get it?	21:25
andre__	ali1234, "<ali1234> andre__: because i set up my own repo, uploaded a system lib to it" and so on.	21:25
GeneralAntilles	PaulFertser, mobile devices are not PCs.	21:25
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ali1234	andre__: i consider a system lib to be any package which begins "lib..."	21:26
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PaulFertser	GeneralAntilles: neither are netbooks	21:26
ali1234	andre__: and NOT necessarily something provided already in the base firmware	21:26
Jaffa	PaulFertser: SSU is, basically, apt-get update && dist-upgrade; but the reason it has extra stuff around it is exactly the same reason Ubuntu has an update-manager	21:26
GeneralAntilles	They're a helluva lot closer than a 770.	21:26
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andre__	ali1234: apart from me not listening, any other personal problems with me, or quotes/URLs so I can try to improve my listening skills? (not kidding here, really interested)	21:26
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hardaker	nokia support SUCKS	21:27
ali1234	so anyway, if i find a security bug in my package, libfoo, and release an updated version, no users will ever be notified of it's existence	21:27
hardaker	(and they lie)	21:27
hardaker	when they said "they're shipping" the other day and you call they say "oh yeah, we're just waiting for fedex to pick them up"	21:27
PaulFertser	Jaffa: ubuntu is not a good example, i'm afraid. When i saw "fail-safe X server" (that is designed specifically to make xorg.conf editing harder) i lost all my hope in that distro.	21:28
hardaker	and keep saying that for days... somehow, I don't think it's fedex	21:28
andre__	hardaker, uhm... which country?	21:28
hardaker	us	21:28
andre__	bad :-/	21:28
Jaffa	PaulFertser: I'm talking technical reasons	21:28
annoia	I'm trying to install the ssh client/server, but I'm missing openssh-client and openssh-server... Where to I get these (and why aren't they in the same repository?!!)	21:29
ali1234	so, as it stands, the existing package management system makes it impossible for 3rd party developers to fix security bugs (or any other kind of bugs) in libraries	21:29
Jaffa	ali1234: There've been a number of discussion as to how to solve that, and there is a workaround. Feel free to participate on maemo-developers and patches to HAM always welcome.	21:29
ali1234	and if you think that is a good idea then there's really no hope for you	21:29
PaulFertser	GeneralAntilles: i can't understand how an update stratagy for a mobile device differs from a PC OS, sorry. I admit i'm somewhat dumb. But probably other users are not very smart as well so it deserves some explanation imho.	21:29
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ali1234	last time i raised this issue the workaround was to force a dependency on the package(s) which use it	21:29
Jaffa	ali1234: "Impossible" is wrong; because there's a trivial (and sub-optimal) workaround of releasing a new version of one piece of software which relies on it with a >= dependency.	21:29
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ali1234	in order for the user to be guaranteed to get the fixed lib, you have to fix every package which uses it	21:30
ali1234	which could be several hundred megabytes of packages	21:30
GeneralAntilles	annoia, http://repository.maemo.org/extras/pool/fremantle/free/o/openssh/	21:30
GeneralAntilles	It's in Extras.	21:30
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PaulFertser	Jaffa: i'm not a ubuntu user so i lack knowledge about its "update manager" but judging by the general ideas of that distro i assume it's quite possibly either solves a non-existant problem or tries to solve a real problem in an utterly wrong way.	21:30
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Jaffa	ali1234: As I said, it's sub-optimal and solutions are welcome	21:31
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annoia	GeneralAntilles - That's pretty weird, as I have extras in my catalogues	21:31
ali1234	the solution is really simple. the solution is not to have a solution. just show all updates whether they have a section or not.	21:31
Jaffa	ali1234: Not very user friendly for the mass-market.	21:32
javispedro	so that the user gets an update availables dialog for "libillumination"?	21:32
ali1234	yes	21:32
javispedro	(sorry for putting that concrete example)	21:32
GeneralAntilles	annoia, Fremantle or Diablo?	21:32
ali1234	or better the user gets "updates available, do you want to install? (y/n)"	21:32
annoia	GeneralAntilles - Fremantle	21:32
GeneralAntilles	annoia, what does apt-get update show?	21:32
GeneralAntilles	apt-get install openssh-server (or -client) shows not found, I presume?	21:33
Jaffa	ali1234: err, that is the notifications dialogue for updates. But, as you say, it only deals with user-facing packages.	21:33
annoia	GeneralAntilles - Actually apt-cache search ssh shows the openssh-client and server...	21:33
ali1234	exactly, and that's the problem	21:33
Jaffa	ali1234: Yes, and your solution isn't compatible with the requirements. So a different solution is needed.	21:33
GeneralAntilles	Ah, apt-get install openssh ?	21:33
ali1234	in that case the requirements are broken	21:34
Jaffa	Software Design 101: if the solution doesn't meet the requirements, it's not a solution.	21:34
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GeneralAntilles	ali1234, that users not be exposed to pages and pages of meaningless gibberish?	21:34
Jaffa	s/meaningless/$& (to them) /	21:34
ali1234	GeneralAntilles: the solution to that is not to show the user what is being installed unless they specifically ask to see it	21:34
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GeneralAntilles	Hey, that's the solution we have now!	21:35
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: No, he means not telling the user what's going to be updated at all	21:35
ali1234	no, the solution we have now is not to update any packages which the user wont "understand"	21:35
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annoia	GeneralAntilles - Could it be that because installing the package removes a different package, the Nokia tool refuses?	21:35
Jaffa	Just that there are updates and it'll take 34.2MB to download	21:35
GeneralAntilles	annoia, installing openssh shouldn't remove anything.	21:35
GeneralAntilles	annoia, can you pastebin the apt log?	21:35
annoia	GeneralAntilles - It removes ssh and mp-fremantle-generic-tr	21:36
GeneralAntilles	ali1234, problem with that is that users often install repositories which will make their systems unbootable if a dist-upgrade is applied.	21:36
ali1234	the problem is "the user doesn't understand about updates for libraries" and the solution we currently have is "lets just not update those libraries" when the correct solution is "lets just update the libraries without telling the user specifically what was updated"	21:36
annoia	GeneralAntilles - Not sure what you're looking for, but I'm fairly well versed in Linux :)	21:36
GeneralAntilles	annoia, this is on the device? 42-11?	21:37
* Jaffa suggests that people who are new to the platform don't panic without seeing things in practice; offer constructive solutions in the right place; and don't rant and insult people who are long standing contributors to the platform		21:37
GeneralAntilles	Jaffa, goodluckwiththat	21:37
annoia	GeneralAntilles - This is on a brand new N900. What does 42-11 refer to?	21:37
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GeneralAntilles	annoia, the software version.	21:37
GeneralAntilles	annoia, retail?	21:37
Jaffa	ali1234: i.e. an implicit meta-package of "Software libraries (342KB)" appearing in HAM?	21:38
ali1234	sure, that would work for me	21:38
annoia	GeneralAntilles - Nokia development loaner	21:38
Jaffa	ali1234: Sounds like it might be a workable idea, however IRC isn't exactly the best feedback and decision system.	21:38
GeneralAntilles	annoia, can you go to control panel -> about and see what the version string is?	21:38
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PaulFertser	Jaffa: the problem is that everyone says: hey, maemo is a nice distro, there's apt to manage your packages, just like in your favourite debian. And then it suddenly appears it's not exactly like that.	21:39
annoia	GeneralAntilles - Ah, yes, 42-11	21:39
GeneralAntilles	annoia, hrm, strange.	21:39
javispedro	PaulFertser: what part of apt is missing?	21:39
GeneralAntilles	And apt-get install openssh-server/client wants to remove things?	21:39
ali1234	and it turns out this is all irrelevant anyway since the gles thing is not related to firmware versions, it's just a bug in the repo	21:39
javispedro	and a known one..	21:40
GeneralAntilles	(annoia, that's the latest release available, by the way. The one they're shipping in retail units.)	21:40
annoia	GeneralAntilles - Yes, the packages I said.	21:40
annoia	GeneralAntilles - Cool. :D	21:40
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woglinde	hm nokia fires 300 people in reasearch	21:41
woglinde	nice	21:41
PaulFertser	javispedro: no apt part is missing. But extra confusing non-apt parts (SSU) are present. And that is just confusing. It's not explained anywhere why this extra mechanism is introduced and how it works. Just very confusing. I think i somewhat can read docs and the code but the page about SSU on the wiki tells about nothing to me. :-/	21:41
GeneralAntilles	annoia, not sure what either package is related to.	21:41
ali1234	also the gui update manage does not work like the way people have used other distros will expect for reasons i spent the last 15 minutes ranting about	21:41
javispedro	PaulFertser: SSU is a meta-package that has strong dependencies on certain versions of system components. like ubuntu-desktop. is that enough?	21:41
javispedro	ali1234: install synaptic	21:42
annoia	GeneralAntilles - Dunno. But it doesn't seem too disastrous to remove ;)	21:42
ali1234	synaptic is not an update notifier	21:42
GeneralAntilles	annoia, at worst you may have to reflash. ;)	21:42
javispedro	ali1234: well install your favourite update notifier.	21:42
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GeneralAntilles	annoia, usually the disastrous removals you can spot when it wants to free about 140MB of installed packages. ;0	21:42
annoia	Hehe	21:42
PaulFertser	javispedro: well... If it was written on the wiki _and_ it was clearly stated how it interacts with apt (e.g. what if i have my own kernel package that is on hold to avoid auto-updating etc), it'd be enough.	21:43
annoia	GeneralAntilles - Ten years of Debian/Ubuntu has taught me to spot those ;)	21:43
javispedro	PaulFertser: easy. if you have your own kernel you're on your own when updating. dist-upgrade, intuition, and good luck.	21:43
ali1234	javispedro: i may have to do that. unfortunately there's no guarantee my users will do that	21:43
PaulFertser	javispedro: hm. Do you agree that SSU is confusing and scary to any Debian administrator even after he reads http://wiki.maemo.org/Seamless_Software_Update ?	21:44
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javispedro	ali1234: so all you want is for users to have updated versions of a lib you need? then yes you'll need a newer version of a user/ package every time.	21:45
javispedro	every time a newer version of the lib shows up.	21:45
javispedro	PaulFertser: no, I don't find it scary. The first thing I did was switch to unlocked. If you know how to recompile and flash your own kernel I'll find it disturbing a metapackage bothering you.	21:46
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ali1234	javispedro: which is bad if i didn't make any user visible package which uses the lib	21:49
PaulFertser	javispedro: it's written on the wiki that installing this package will overwrite my kernel. It's not clear if it will do it or not if the kernel is installed as a proper package and is put on hold. So uncertainty combined with unclear intentions is somewhat bothering.	21:49
javispedro	PaulFertser: "kernel installed as a proper package"? the kernel is not even on a filesystem!	21:50
javispedro	ali1234: and what use is a lib without a user-visible app?	21:50
ali1234	javispedro: you assume that all packages are made by the same person?	21:50
ali1234	the whole point of libraries is multiple packages may use them	21:50
javispedro	ali1234: no. I assume people talking.	21:51
ali1234	well that's not a valid assumption	21:51
PaulFertser	javispedro: i think that the proper way would be to install kernels to the filesystem and to provide a tool like update-alternatives to flash the particular kernel you want.	21:51
javispedro	well then why we're going to have an ITP mailing list.	21:51
ali1234	what if the person who makes the user package has disappeared? hit by a bus?	21:51
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ali1234	at best you have to scramble around for someone else to make an updated package	21:52
javispedro	ali1234: freeze the package forever in memoriam? or take over it? what a hard decision damn it!	21:52
ali1234	of course if you just allow library updates, you don't need to do either	21:52
ali1234	because the existing package would continue to work with the new lib	21:52
javispedro	until you hit a bug in the user/ app and you have to take over the package either way.	21:53
Jaffa	ali1234: Who does the testing in your "multiple people sharing a J. Random Library" world?	21:53
ali1234	and of course it's even worse if multiple packages use the lib	21:53
Jaffa	Maemo doesn't have the release process, the entry requirements or the timescales of Debian.	21:53
Shapeshifter	when making a wallpaper for the n900, is one big wide image needed, or 4 small ones?	21:55
Jaffa	ali1234: Anyway, I quite like the "Software libraries" pseudo-package entry to handle lib upgrades that we got to.	21:55
ali1234	Shapeshifter: 4 small ones	21:55
Shapeshifter	and, isn't it a bit of a waste of ressources to display a 3200x480 picture all the time?	21:55
Shapeshifter	ali1234: I see, thanks.	21:55
Jaffa	ali1234: Outline it on maemo-developers or (and I hate to say this) maemo.org/brainstorm/	21:55
Shapeshifter	any preffered format? png?	21:55
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Shapeshifter	and, can it do SVG?	21:55
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javispedro	preffered format should be pvr.	21:56
javispedro	other than that, png.	21:56
Shapeshifter	javispedro: okay	21:56
javispedro	svg for a fixed resolution is wasteful at best.	21:56
Stskeeps	javispedro: got my mail?	21:56
javispedro	Stskeeps: yep, will read soon.	21:56
javispedro	and thanks.	21:57
Stskeeps	k	21:57
Stskeeps	javispedro: my status of those is a kernel panic but at least it doesn't error out.	21:57
Stskeeps	:P	21:57
javispedro	ouch.	21:57
javispedro	so I better grab the charger.	21:57
* Stskeeps needs a proper upnp media server		21:58
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PaulFertser	What is also strange is that maemo doesn't seem to be widely accepted. All PDAs were using OPIE or GPE, now it's E's Illume or Xfce, lxdm in favour. If maemo is really good why didn't it attract developers who use other (than nokia's) devices like iPAQs, Zauruses etc?	22:00
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javispedro	are you saying we come from a nokia/symbian background?	22:00
GeneralAntilles	Shapeshifter, 4 small ones (and a .desktop if you can swing it) on PR1.0, you can use one large one in PR1.1 (it'll automatically slice it up)	22:01
javispedro	now you have challenged the honor of my family!	22:01
javispedro	;)	22:01
GeneralAntilles	PaulFertser, because Maemo isn't designed to run on different hardware	22:01
Jaffa	PaulFertser: There are lots of ex-devs from those platforms.	22:01
GeneralAntilles	and most of those devices don't have the resources to run Maemo well	22:01
GeneralAntilles	either way, please see Mer.	22:01
GeneralAntilles	~mer	22:01
Stskeeps	PaulFertser: because E/Illume is where mobile distributions go to die	22:01
GeneralAntilles	infobot!	22:02
infobot	somebody said mer was http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer, or on #mer	22:02
javispedro	infobot: ping	22:02
infobot	~pong	22:02
Stskeeps	PaulFertser: besides that, even intel tried to tame Maemo/Hildon and they failed at it	22:02
PaulFertser	GeneralAntilles: linux wasn't designed to run on anything except i386 too.	22:03
Milo-	PaulFertser yet it's 2^63-1 times better as 64bit platform than windwos	22:04
Milo-	windows, even.	22:04
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Jaffa	PaulFertser: And so look at Mer to see where Maemo can go.	22:05
javispedro	mergotchi!	22:05
PaulFertser	Jaffa: i know. But many attempts to actually use Mer on other devices come nowhere for whatever reason...	22:05
Stskeeps	FR doesn't count	22:05
Stskeeps	:P	22:05
PaulFertser	Stskeeps: what does?	22:05
GeneralAntilles	Something that has real hardware.	22:06
Stskeeps	FR was a special case cos we had to deal with armv4t and our stuff wasn't compatible with debian stable :P	22:06
Jaffa	PaulFertser: Where was Linux in terms of platforms and devices a couple of years into its dev?	22:06
PaulFertser	It's also horrifying to see nokia use maemo again instead of mer.	22:06
Stskeeps	(OBS only takes in stable versions)	22:06
Jaffa	PaulFertser: Then you don't understand Maemo, Nokia, mobile devices, consumer electronics or Mer.	22:06
PaulFertser	Jaffa: or life	22:07
Stskeeps	PaulFertser: nah, mer is too immature for that big scale. we happened a little before fremantle first prealpha	22:07
Jaffa	PaulFertser: I've no idea about your life. But when the project leader for Mer doesn't agree, and has now been employed by Nokia to work on it; perhaps you should listen more than lecture? ;-)	22:07
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* RST38h sighs: not the absolute open source argument again		22:07
Stskeeps	Jaffa: for good measure, paid by nokia, not employee. self-employed in own company	22:08
Stskeeps	:P	22:08
* lardman\|afk pokes his head in on the way to another glass of wine and agrees :)		22:08
Jaffa	Stskeeps: Indeed. Even better.	22:08
PaulFertser	RST38h: nope, you mistreat technology advantages for religios ones.	22:08
javispedro	RST38h: yes! BOTH the morning and the afternoon "not enough free" discussion!	22:08
RST38h	Me? Religious advantages?	22:08
javispedro	and the evening, fwiw!	22:08
PaulFertser	RST38h: you see where maemo went: nowhere. It remained a semi-open platform for nokia devices only. Not gaining community acceptance.	22:08
* RST38h hails the Tentacled One, who has definitely claimed another victim just now		22:08
* Jaffa boggles at so much energy being poured into slamming Nokia for imagined or hypothetical problems, whilst totally ignoring the easily documentable current problems which are still ongoing.		22:09
PaulFertser	RST38h: to me it looks like a strong argument against "the way" nokia chooses.	22:09
Stskeeps	PaulFertser: i still believe what people -really- want is Maemo, though.	22:09
Stskeeps	quality mobile platform	22:09
PaulFertser	Stskeeps: if by people you mean "lusers" then probably yes.	22:09
lardman\|afk	most people are lusers really	22:09
Jaffa	PaulFertser: Past tense? When Nokia are launching the most mainstream-focused Maemo device, which has had more commercial interest than any of the prior devices? I think you're smoking something.	22:09
* Stskeeps twitches		22:09
* RST38h does not see why Maemo should "go" somewhere else		22:09
PaulFertser	Stskeeps: if by people you mean fellow developers, then probably you're wrong.	22:09
RST38h	It is a Linux distribution made by Nokia to power Nokia mobile devices	22:10
Shapeshifter	makin a wallpaper I realize just how huge the resolution of that device really is >.>	22:10
Milo-	where is the download link for the latest maemo-sdk? O_o All I see is the 'release notes' :/	22:10
javispedro	PaulFertser: I don't know if you think that Maemo wants to replace Debian... it does not.	22:10
PaulFertser	Jaffa: (smoking something) i wish i did, probably i wouldn't have bothered you with "useless" questions then.	22:10
RST38h	BTW, creating your own Linux distribution is no rocket science, you can always make your own and port it wherever you like	22:10
Jaffa	PaulFertser: You aren't asking questions; you're making statements.	22:10
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PaulFertser	Jaffa: yep, that's my stupid way of asking questions, sorry for that, i'm too used to this habit :(	22:11
Jaffa	Milo-: http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Development_Environment/Maemo_SDK#Installing_SDK	22:11
lardman	well tbh I'd prefer something that just works to hack on, doing e.g. DSP hacking. I want everything else to just work in a luser-like sense	22:11
RST38h	PaulFertser: Now, if you are willing and able to make a Linux distro that will match Maemo functionality on a bunch of other mobile devices (let us say HTC ones) and give it away for free, I am all for it	22:11
RST38h	PaulFertser: Start hacking.	22:11
PaulFertser	RST38h: SHR is about to provide that.	22:12
* Stskeeps twitches again		22:12
lardman	~SHR	22:12
infobot	methinks shr is The Stable Hybrid Release (SHR), intended to be a community driven distribution composed of the FSO and some basic applications, that can be configured to use several different graphical toolkits, for example GTK or EFL. SHR is based on the FSO build. At first, SHR was introduced in order to use the Openmoko2007.2 GTK software in combination with the new FSO, but things have changed.	22:12
RST38h	PaulFertser: If you are just making grand statements about how software is supposed to be free, I suggest you stuff it for now.	22:12
Milo-	Jaffa how come there isn't link to that in the Maemo5-sdk's 'downloads' page?	22:12
PaulFertser	RST38h: but maemo is not. Maemo is semi-open platform to run on nokia devices only.	22:12
Milo-	I would assume that it would be the most logical place for it ._·	22:12
RST38h	Paul: Fine with me.	22:13
Jaffa	Milo-: I found that from http://maemo.org/development/ - Forum Nokia confuses me; hopefully because I'm just not used to it.	22:13
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* RST38h feels comfortable using semi-open platform on Nokia devices		22:13
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RST38h	Are there any problems with that?	22:13
Jaffa	RST38h: +1	22:13
Milo-	https://garage.maemo.org/frs/?group_id=528 I expected it to be _here_	22:13
lardman	hmm, /me remembers why he was cursing the browser opening code	22:13
* lbt_ would would be happier if he could get any contacts onto his flippin phone...		22:14
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Jaffa	And when Nokia help transition bits of it to provide a fully open platform for use on Nokia (and non-Nokia) devices in the form of Mer; I wonder how anyone can complain about the freedom much.	22:14
javispedro	PaulFertser: oh no, not "it's not truly open" again. Do yo thing we don't know that? It's been repeated for the 52405234th time!	22:14
Jaffa	Milo-: I've never seen that before in my life! :-/	22:14
PaulFertser	RST38h: lack of portability, also improper priorities. If some hackers want to use it on other devices, nokia won't probably accept the patches because they'd be conflicting with either their "business stratagy" or their "great future plans".	22:14
* RST38h would actually like ot know how he can mass-edit contacts in Fremantle. Is there a file?		22:14
javispedro	s/thing/think	22:14
RST38h	PaulFertser: Who are these "some hackers" and why should I care?	22:15
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RST38h	PaulFerster: You are some hacker => you care.	22:15
qwerty12_N810	/topic Welcome to #maemo \| http://maemo.org \| http://maemo.nokia.com \| Maemo Community Council http://maemo.org/community/council \| http://mxr.maemo.org \| http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog \| Maemo-Barcelona Long Weekend - Registrations open - http://tinyurl.com/ydv6p62 \| FIRMWARE IS HERE AT LAST! http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php \| No, Maemo is no fully open. No, we could not give a shit; GTFO.	22:15
Jaffa	PaulFertser: Well, there haven't been a large number of patches to Maemo; but mine to Hildon Application Manager were accepted; as were qwerty12's	22:15
javispedro	RST38h: there's an API. the file is either a berkeley db or whatever evolution uses these days.	22:15
Stskeeps	PaulFertser: why bother putting a lot of stuff out publically on gitorious if they don't want patches?	22:15
lbt	oi, Jaffa: leave the trolls alone and make fremantle contacts more open	22:15
Milo-	"Using SDK on X86_64 is not supported" :(	22:15
RST38h	javispedro: Any way to export it, then import back?	22:15
derf	RST38h: This channel sounds more and more like tmo every day.	22:15
javispedro	Milo-, SDK works on amd64 fine.	22:15
RST38h	derf: Well, they filter in	22:15
derf	I had hoped it was safe. I've never read tmo for a reason.	22:16
qwerty12_N810	Jaffa: Hell, the category view in Maemo 5's HAM wouldn't be the same w/out your work	22:16
PaulFertser	lbt: i'm not trolling per se, just trying to understand more about the life by the way of arguing (which is assumed to lead to truth).	22:16
RST38h	javispedro: 'cause I basically need to replace "8" for "+7" in half the numbers	22:16
RST38h	Paul: I do not think you are trying to understand life here	22:16
javispedro	RST38h: dunno, I've never read the actual API itself. I'd guess there should be an easy way to export vcards though.	22:17
PaulFertser	RST38h: well, probably i'm lying to myself but at least i'm being honest.	22:17
RST38h	Proselytizing to the wrong audience, yes, that you do	22:17
RST38h	Paul: Lying to yourself is not being honest	22:17
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PaulFertser	RST38h: if i believe my lies myself, it is.	22:18
Milo-	eww	22:18
Milo-	requires dpkg	22:18
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lbt	PaulFertser: there's a very fine line between debate and ... other things	22:18
RST38h	Paul: You can make yourself believe that the flame does not burn you, but any medic will readily confirm that you get burned	22:18
lbt	and anyway, my personal needs for contact sync take precedence over anything else I care about right now :)	22:19
RST38h	Paul: So, if you would like ot continue being delusional, that is your right. Just do not get us into this	22:19
javispedro	Milo-: yeah, if you don't want to extract the packages somehow you'll have to build from source. dpkg-deb at least should be easily installable.	22:19
RST38h	(besides, most of us probably heard these arguments a zillion times, so you are being boring)	22:20
PaulFertser	RST38h: but i think that is not about delusions. UNIX was a success exactly because it could run on many different architectures. So was the case with Linux, also it's openness contributed.	22:20
Milo-	just dpkg, gentoo doesn't add unnecessary garbage to the packagenames :)	22:20
Milo-	it's not a problem to compile from sources	22:20
javispedro	Milo-: dpkg-deb is an actual application.	22:20
* RST38h sighs again: UNIX has been developed in AT&T labs, paid by big motherfucking Phone Company, for Cthulhu's sake		22:21
Stskeeps	PaulFertser: i don't dispute that having maemo on multiple devices would be good for the platform. that's what we're trying to move Maemo towards using Mer.	22:21
javispedro	Milo-, it definitely is. To build sbox you'll probably need even more debian tools...	22:21
PaulFertser	But it was given away to the universities for free. And it was portable enough.	22:21
RST38h	You think your MGTS is evil? Well, AT&T is like 3 times more evil than that	22:21
Milo-	debian is evil, mkay	22:21
microlith	ebil	22:21
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Jaffa	Milo-: There's a virtual image; or if you isntall Scratchbox you can probably do the rootstraps into it on Gentoo. Dunno, I compiled my own Linux distro once and it wasn't Gentoo ;-)	22:22
PaulFertser	Stskeeps: you're trying. But nokia doesn't seem to really want that or else they've put enough resources long time ago.	22:22
javispedro	Milo-: your problem is installing to Gentoo, not amd64. i'm sure there's some tutorials out there.	22:22
Milo-	javispedro how so ?	22:23
RST38h	Ok. Nokia does not want that. So?	22:23
Milo-	E: CPU transparency method 'qemu-arm-sb' not found.	22:23
PaulFertser	RST38h: so that's the reason "maemo" sucks, i.e. "cool hackers" do not like it for a reason.	22:23
Jaffa	PaulFertser: It's a journey. They're a big company. Maemo is now key to their strategy (and based on where it's come from) and they pay Stskeep to work on Mer and help move Maemo out onto other devices and bring other distros on to their hardware.	22:23
Milo-	whee, next error :)	22:23
RST38h	Paul: Ok, "cool hackers" hate Maemo. Because Maemo sucks them.	22:23
Jaffa	PaulFertser: Trust us, if you really want to learn - and are asking questions by arguing - we know more than you.	22:23
PaulFertser	Jaffa: if it's really the case, that's nice to hear.	22:24
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ali1234	maemo is still better than android	22:24
RST38h	Paul: Why would anyone care?	22:24
ali1234	plenty of that is closed too	22:24
PaulFertser	ali1234: android is not *nix at all, so it's out of the consideration.	22:24
Jaffa	ali1234: Android SDK and dev tools are better; but Maemo is getting there. High hopes for "SDK for Maemo 6 developers" (compared with the "Maemo 6 platform SDK")	22:24
ali1234	of course it is	22:24
microlith	PaulFertser: not in the userspace, no	22:24
PaulFertser	RST38h: if you do not care about the fellow developers, well, i'm ok with that.	22:24
RST38h	PaulFertser: WAIT. STOP	22:25
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javispedro	well yeah, the user space is pretty unixy. it's not gnu though.	22:25
RST38h	PaulFertser: I care about fellow developers. I care about qwerty12, lcuk, VDVsx, javispedro et al	22:25
PaulFertser	javispedro: the libc is not posix-compatible. There's no X. etc.	22:25
microlith	Jaffa: my working knowlege of GTK/QT development is more readily applicable to Maemo development, that's way better than any SDK :)	22:25
RST38h	PaulFertser: I do not care about your 'cool hackers'. As far as I know, nobody cares about them but you =)	22:25
PaulFertser	RST38h: oh, sorry, my english is too bad to express my thoughts properly.	22:25
Jaffa	microlith: True; that's its one BIG plus point :)	22:25
ali1234	Jaffa: i really don't like the android sdk, mainly because of eclipse	22:26
RST38h	Cooling down and thinking logically may help =)	22:26
Jaffa	ali1234: Fair enough; welcome to Maemo ;-)	22:26
javispedro	PaulFertser: linux's libc is not posix either, and I guess you knew that.	22:26
* Jaffa likes Eclipse (for all its faults), but then he works with it on a daily basis		22:26
microlith	iirc, isn't Android using uClibc?	22:26
javispedro	s/linux's libc/glibc	22:26
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PaulFertser	RST38h: by fellow developers i mean all the developers who work with love and passion. And there's plenty of those in the free software "community".	22:27
ali1234	microlith: yes	22:27
javispedro	I think android uses Bionic, at least for user space apps.	22:27
* RST38h takes out obligatory brown bag at the mention of Eclipse		22:27
Jaffa	RST38h: yay! :)	22:27
Milo-	I think I have all the depencies now	22:27
Milo-	lets see..	22:27
* Jaffa goes to have a sit down and a nice cup of tea; and watch FlashForward.		22:27
RST38h	PaulFertser: I can attest for love and passion. I can only observe things people do.	22:27
RST38h	PaulFertser: Now, maybe your loving and passionate developers are really cool, I dunno	22:28
* javispedro hates everyone and has no passion. feel no mercy!		22:28
RST38h	PaulFertser: All I know is that you can't show much stuff they have created	22:28
RST38h	PaulFertser: As for the list I have given above, all I need to do is go to Maemo Downloads and check their stuff	22:28
PaulFertser	RST38h: i think the GNU Project is enough for an evidence.	22:29
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RST38h	Is GNU Project a piece of software?	22:29
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ali1234	hell, maemo-extras is enough evidence	22:29
ali1234	only a very small amount of it was written specifically for maemo	22:29
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PaulFertser	RST38h: it's a project to create a Unix-like OS.	22:29
RST38h	Paul: And when can we see such an OS?	22:30
Proteous	damnit amazon, stop lowering the price of the n900	22:30
RST38h	Proteous: getting close to $370? ;)	22:30
PaulFertser	RST38h: GNU/Linux is here. Unfortunately, Hurd is not exactly successful.	22:30
RST38h	Paul: I know Linux. I do not know GNU/Linux	22:30
PaulFertser	RST38h: hm, strange, what userspace do you use then?	22:31
Shapeshifter	PaulFertser: does it matter	22:31
RST38h	And Linux, as we know it, is only here because huge corporations are paying people to develop its parts.	22:31
Shapeshifter	PaulFertser: no it doesn't.	22:31
Proteous	the magic price where I buy one is higher than that	22:31
RST38h	Paul: Me? I use FreeBSD :)	22:31
ali1234	hahaha i was just about to say "probably bsd"	22:31
GeneralAntilles	javispedro, hate you too. </3 :)	22:32
RST38h	Paul: So, to summarize, "GNU Project" is about putting the GNU tag on somethign other people developed and also developing vaporware for decades	22:32
ali1234	RST38h: please tell me where i can find a huge corporation for the drivers i wrote?	22:32
RST38h	Paul: Should I remind you about AvtoVAZ again? ;)	22:32
PaulFertser	RST38h: i do not thing this claim is backed up by anything.	22:33
RST38h	Paul: Which claim?	22:33
PaulFertser	RST38h: GNU Project is vapourware	22:33
RST38h	Paul: Do I see Hurd being used in the open? No.	22:34
RST38h	Vaporware then.	22:34
PaulFertser	RST38h: Hurd is only the kernel.	22:34
PaulFertser	RST38h: OS is more that that	22:34
RST38h	Do I see Hurd kernel being used in the open? No.	22:35
RST38h	Vaporware again.	22:35
* PaulFertser wonders who's being a troll here		22:35
RST38h	BTW, I see Linux being used	22:35
PaulFertser	;)	22:35
ali1234	this argument is dumb. i want to know where i get my huge-corporation-money please.	22:35
RST38h	But the GNU People page (http://www.gnu.org/people/) does not even mention Linux	22:35
* microlith wonders if RST38h is being serious		22:36
RST38h	microlith: hush ;)	22:36
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* kirma sees his future phone being active and moving around		22:36
kirma	too bad it's not going to move as far as to me before monday :I	22:37
microlith	kirma: not on its own I hope :o	22:37
javispedro	yes, n900 is people!	22:37
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kirma	microlith: UPS tracking...	22:37
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microlith	huh	22:38
microlith	good to see my sept. 3rd preorder is coming up for naught	22:38
kirma	you have evidence of that? :)	22:38
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microlith	what, that I placed it or that it's going nowhere?	22:39
kirma	I'm pretty convinced I'm getting the toy on monday - just slightly disappointed they couldn't have started shipping yesterday, would have made here before weekend.	22:39
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kirma	microlith: ehm, parse error. misread you somehow	22:39
* Shapeshifter is expecting his device mid december.		22:40
microlith	I'd like mine before thursday, four days to play with it would be great	22:40
Shapeshifter	-.-	22:40
RST38h	Shapeshifter: next december?	22:40
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Shapeshifter	RST38h: if all goes well >.>	22:41
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ShadowJK	Well, nokia shop fi sort of half-way charged my cc... I hope that means I get it next friday :)	22:45
frals	glad im a swede, dont have to worry about it shipping anytime soon ;)	22:46
ShadowJK	lol	22:46
kirma	shadowjk: did you receive email about it?	22:47
Shapeshifter	forums being entertaining again, from "nyc now shipping" thread: "Ok guys, just got my phone. Here's what I found out from the Nokia store. he nasty woman at the store is the manager."	22:47
ShadowJK	some of the stores in .fi ships to sweden too :)	22:47
ShadowJK	kirma, nope.	22:47
Shapeshifter	*the	22:47
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kirma	Subject: Nokia Online Kauppa Tilausvahvistus <...>	22:47
frals	yeah ShadowJK, but i recon by the time i can get one from a finnish store it should be like a week until it launches here, hopefully ;-)	22:48
frals	otherwise ill just jump on a tallink boat to helsinki :D	22:48
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qwerty12_N810	Now there's your hardcore N900 fan :p	22:48
ShadowJK	kirma, that's not fair :(	22:48
ShadowJK	how come my visa status says -800 and no order confirmation D:	22:49
kirma	if I were you I'd have called them... already :I	22:49
ShadowJK	lol	22:49
kirma	their phone service is surprisingly helpful, if you ignore the fact they are eager to query names, phone numbers and stuff all the time	22:50
kirma	qwerty12_N810: hardcore fan is the one that jumps from the boat when he figures out it's not available from shop here either	22:51
qwerty12_N810	kirma: Hehe, I stand corrected	22:52
ShadowJK	well, you can take the boat this weekend to figure out it's not available, and then the next weekend again	22:53
ShadowJK	and then the third weekend, because the first two you enjoyed the beer on the all-you-can-eat-and-drink buffet too much	22:54
ShadowJK	and forgot all about buying n900	22:54
kirma	tell me about this "all you can drink" buffet place here, I want there too	22:55
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kirma	oh, on the boat you meant :)	22:55
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ShadowJK	yeah :)	22:57
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hrabbey	Here is a app idea, IF the n900 or other hardware supports it. Have maemo act as a simulated bluetooth headset, allowing pair another cellphone and bluetooth mp3 or maybe a 3rd cellphone and mixing the audio streams together. So can listen to mp3s while still not missing cellphone ringing / tones.	23:03
hrabbey	(Yeah, why bother having another [work] cellphone or another mp3 player... Just cause.)	23:04
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pupnik_	you want to listen to music on the phone, while talking	23:07
pupnik_	next	23:07
kirma	:)	23:07
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hrabbey	And record conversations without knowledge? ... ;-)	23:08
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GeneralAntilles	Could the -testing idiocy on the lists be more petulant and childish?	23:10
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aquatix	hrabbey: now that's a feature i want	23:12
GeneralAntilles	I can't believe the Ovi Store gets first billing and it hasn't even been launched. http://europe.nokia.com/get-support-and-software/product-support/n900/software	23:12
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microlith	they should update their FAQ entry for the N900 regarding MMS	23:13
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wjt	what's the point of the droid fonts being in maemo extras? :)	23:26
GeneralAntilles	wjt, I guess cause they're free and of reasonable quality.	23:27
GeneralAntilles	I don't care for them myself, but to each his own, I suppose.	23:27
wjt	i mean… i can only use them in the text editor, right? I can't make the whole UI use them.	23:28
qwerty12_N810	wjt: Get to hacking the gtkrc of your favourite theme.	23:28
wjt	Now, DejaVu Sans Mono in my terminals, I'm excited about!	23:28
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* wjt mutters about packaging inconsolata		23:29
wjt	qwerty12_N810: a fair point	23:29
Macer	i should try running a vbox in a vbox just to see what happens	23:30
bigbrovar	can anyone here confirm if the inbuilt IM for the N900 supports network proxy .. The one which came with N810 doesnt	23:30
qwerty12_N810	Macer: Have more fun: VNC in VNC	23:30
Macer	qwerty12_N810: going for that mirror in the mirror effect? :)	23:30
wjt	bigbrovar: for xmpp? sadly not :(	23:30
qwerty12_N810	Macer: That's the one :)	23:30
Macer	i'm still trying to figure out what the hell is wrong with zimbra talking to gtalk	23:31
Macer	my n810 seems to randomly disconnect from it also.. it's really starting to irritate me	23:31
Macer	it just seems to lose it after a while of working fine	23:31
bigbrovar	wjt: what!! :( so no gtalk, jabber? :S	23:31
Macer	i'm about to check my vbox settings	23:31
wjt	bigbrovar: no, we still didn't get proxy support, sorry :'(	23:31
* wjt →		23:32
bigbrovar	wjt: what about using other IM plugin like msn, yahoo skype?	23:32
GeneralAntilles	Telepathy extras are available in Extras-devel.	23:32
GeneralAntilles	Skype is built-in.	23:32
Jaffa	wjt: Droid Sans Mono in X Terminal is very nice even at small point sizes	23:33
Macer	wow skype is built in?	23:33
wjt	bigbrovar: the extra ones don't explicitly support proxies, but we could probably hack the telepathy-haze ones up to do so	23:33
wjt	yeah!	23:33
Macer	is it the call forwarding skype? or the real skype?	23:33
wjt	it's the real skype	23:33
Jaffa	GeneralAntilles: Yes, the petulance in -testing is very annoying. All this "they" eugh	23:33
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wjt	with a telepathy connection manager	23:33
Macer	wjt: wow no kidding. that's pretty awesome	23:33
bigbrovar	GeneralAntilles: my question was whether skype supports proxy	23:33
GAN900	I need to put Monaco back on here.	23:33
GAN900	Jaffa, feels like Talk	23:34
GAN900	Jaffa, I guess these people went so long without anybody interfering in their p.	23:34
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GAN900	rocess. . . .	23:34
bigbrovar	wjt: wow this is such a deal breaker for me.. I need proxy support :( ...	23:34
bigbrovar	wjt: seems to be an upstream problem?	23:35
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* lbt kicks N900		23:35
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lbt	stupid communications device with no contacts	23:36
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bigbrovar	bigbrovar: 40% of the strongest point of the phone is the IM integration.. the thought that non of them work behind a network proxy just .. a let down .. I already pre-ordered one ..	23:37
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bigbrovar	wjt: are u awear of plans to fix this bug?	23:37
ali1234	the haze (ie libpurple ones) can do, if you hack the .purple config, probably	23:37
ali1234	even the desktop telepathy client, empathy, does not support proxies	23:38
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bigbrovar	ali1234: yeah I know..	23:38
bigbrovar	ali1234: and am not sure there are plans to fix that anytime soon :(	23:39
Shapeshifter	finished my first n900 wallpaper. It's way from perfect, but I learned something. http://stuff.moritzg.ch/karaExA.png	23:39
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Jaffa	bigbrovar: If the IM doesn't support proxies, I'll vote for the bug if you raise it/point me at it.	23:39
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Shapeshifter	it's panorama so it turns around at the end.	23:39
bigbrovar	Jaffa: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=718	23:40
povbot	Bug 718: Supporting Jabber through proxy	23:40
Shapeshifter	replace A with 1-4 to get 4 images.	23:40
bigbrovar	Jaffa: I already voted for it.. this was a big filed since 770 in 2006	23:41
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ali1234	of course, i need socks proxy, not http, because my mobile provider blocks outgoing IMs whether they are http method or not	23:41
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Jaffa	bigbrovar: Indeed	23:42
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mdaum	Anybody know how to control the shutter speed on an N900?	23:42
ali1234	so i need to run socks on localhost	23:42
ali1234	(voted for it anyway)	23:42
bigbrovar	Jaffa: sad to see it made it to the N900 proxy is very common esp in universities	23:42
mikedep333	Shapeshifter, I eagerly look forward to having a phone with a scrolling home screen like that	23:43
Jaffa	Of course, the term "deal breaker" is bandied around too often. It comes across too much (certainly on tmo) of people saying "if you don't fix this, I won't buy it - and I don't care about your prioritisation process because it's important to me" (of course, here it _is_ important; but it smacks of arrogance now in Maemo circles IMVHO)	23:43
Jaffa	bigbrovar: US universities, I assume you mean.	23:43
bigbrovar	Jaffa: and majority of N900 target audience are students in uni so we should expect a surge in the bug activity in term of votes	23:44
Shapeshifter	mikedep333: I'll make more anime stuff. I haven't even got the phone myself :\|	23:44
ali1234	Jaffa: so we should buy things that don't work?	23:44
javispedro	bigbrovar: get used to it and fix it by yourself. see eduroam.	23:44
Jaffa	ali1234: No	23:44
greenfly	if something is a deal breaker it would probably make sense to confirm whether that particular feature is in place /before/ money is exchanged	23:44
javispedro	s/and/or	23:44
bigbrovar	Jaffa: not just us, and but even most co-operate places	23:44
ali1234	we should just not say anything then?	23:44
bigbrovar	javispedro: ?!	23:44
* VDVsx remembers Darius and his "think tank" o_0		23:44
mikedep333	I'm a university student. my university uses both cisco vpn for wi-fi, and WPA 2 TTLS-EAP PAP	23:45
mikedep333	I don't believe I can do either of those on my nokia 5800 xpressmusic	23:45
Jaffa	ali1234: My point is that on talk.maemo.org there are people registering just to say "Nokia should do $RANDOM, it's a deal breaker for me!". It's become a cliche, and it's become a cliche because the people doing it are arrogant enough to think a) I care; and b) that their one lost sale (which the "for me") bit emphasises is important.	23:45
greenfly	you could always use the cellular data connection	23:45
ali1234	Jaffa: if the number of people doing it is so high then maybe you should care? (or somebody should)	23:46
Jaffa	ali1234: Now, lots of lost sales are going to be important to Nokia; I was trying to explain why "deal breaker" has entered some people in the Maemo community's lexicon under the "drinking game" category	23:46
Jaffa	ali1234: Each person has a separate one	23:46
greenfly	for some people, some particular UI decision is a "deal breaker"	23:46
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greenfly	IMO the difference between the maemo platform and a lot of others is that you actually have a chance to fix your own "dealbreaker" problems	23:47
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javispedro	exactly.	23:47
greenfly	(and without learning Java!)	23:47
javispedro	that's what impressed me about the platform and the single reason I'm still here.	23:47
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qwerty12_N810	javispedro: Not because of the lovely community? sniff	23:48
greenfly	heh	23:48
Jaffa	And I've got into trouble before for trying to explain why one bit of the community thinks something, to someone who takes immediate umbrage, and so I'm not in the mood for it now :-/	23:48
javispedro	qwerty12_N810: I hate you all, I've told you!! ;)	23:49
greenfly	for what it's worth, if your connection allows SSH, you can always set up an SSH tunnel to act as a socks proxy	23:49
qwerty12_N810	Fine: /ignore javispedro	23:49
ali1234	greenfly: you can, but telepathy can't use it	23:49
Jaffa	And, the great thing about the Maemo community this evening (random IRC rantage and -testing petulance aside) is that I'm now put off from doing the complex cross-posting thingy I was going to do; and instead go to bed and read and sleep. This is a Good Thing :)	23:49
Milo-	great	23:49
bigbrovar	Jaffa: any idea if pidgin has been ported to the N900 its usually my saving grace	23:49
greenfly	ali1234: or, if your connection allows something like openVPN, you can set up a tunnel to a network that allows what you need	23:50
greenfly	bigbrovar: yeah there's a package either in -devel or -testing	23:50
ali1234	greenfly: that is exactly what i do (ssh socks proxy) but it only works with pidgin/libpurple and not telepathy/empathy/whatever	23:50
greenfly	no Off The Record support yet, but the main bits are there	23:50
Milo-	sdk-installer fails, if I have scratchbox -service started, tells me to close all scratchbox sessions, and if it's not started, it fails because it has to be started 8D	23:50
greenfly	ali1234: you could set up an openvpn tunnel, perhaps	23:51
greenfly	there's even an applet for it now	23:51
ali1234	greenfly: i could do but that is several times more complicated	23:51
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greenfly	ali1234: well, I agree, the easiest thing is to try to get someone else to set it up :)	23:51
greenfly	but the point is you have options	23:51
Milo-	Check for scratchbox sessions running...	23:51
ali1234	bad ones :(	23:51
Milo-	E: You must close your other scratchbox sessions first	23:51
greenfly	ali1234: perhaps reconsider your purchase if it's a really big problem	23:52
ali1234	oh don't worry, i didn't pay for this thing	23:52
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bigbrovar	greenfly: Jaffa i would have to really on my 3g for IM part. it would be cool to use wireless but hey .. cant have it all :) .. hope the issue is fixed one day	23:52
Milo-	E: Scratchbox user's /dev is not properly set up. Couldn't read /dev/null.	23:52
Milo-	E: Start scratchbox service with 'sudo /scratchbox/sbin/sbox_ctl start'.	23:52
Milo-	8D	23:52
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ali1234	i barely use IM on it anyway, i'm more bothered by the fact that the same problem hits me on the desktop	23:52
Milo-	how am I supposed to install it then? 8D	23:53
Milo-	I can't have scratchbox-service STARTED and STOPPED at the same time 8Dd	23:53
ali1234	but there i can just install pidgin, so meh	23:53
greenfly	I think maemo5 might just be the thing that encourages me to learn python	23:54
ali1234	Milo-: perhaps create /dev/null manually?	23:54
Milo-	I do have /dev/null ._·	23:54
Milo-	but not in scratchbox's place	23:54
bigbrovar	ali1234: yep .. the good ole pidgin always works .. although lacks the integration and awesomeness of the default IM .. having all ur contacts (gtalk, skype etc) in one place	23:55
ali1234	Milo-: there's a different one "inside" scratchbox	23:55
ali1234	bigbrovar: yes, and it sucks on the small screen too	23:55
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greenfly	the integration I'm looking forward to is someone integrating dialcentral (ie. Call from Google Voice) into the main contact list	23:55
bigbrovar	ali1234: but i dont think skype would be affected though ( yeah it sucks.. but at least it works :) )	23:55
ali1234	Milo-: mknod /scratchbox/dev/null c 1 3	23:56
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Milo-	why does it upgrade scratchbox each time	23:57
ali1234	"it?"	23:57
Milo-	the installer..	23:57
ali1234	oh. cos it's just a script?	23:57
Milo-	should check if it's already done	23:58
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ali1234	i think on ubuntu it uses apt to install sbox, so if it's already there, it doesn't do it again	23:58
ali1234	don't know about anything else	23:58
Milo-	scratchbox is in portage too	23:59
ali1234	yeah but god knows which version, or if it will still be the same version tomorrow	23:59
Milo-	oh well	23:59

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