IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2009-11-19

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lcukqwerty12_N900, i had my hands on an actual n900 last night!00:00
* Xisdibik is now jealous of lcuk also00:00
qwerty12_N900lcuk: "actual" being the final thing? =)00:00
* GeneralAntilles really wishes for that white lettering.00:00
realitygapsGeneralAntilles: im downloading the fbreader now, if it scrolls you are going to be in my good books for a very very long time :)00:01
realitygapsGeneralAntilles: and qole of course :)00:01
GeneralAntillesrealitygaps, thank qwerty12.00:01
lcuklol, well one that is marked as n900 yeah00:01
lcuki had to give it back :'(00:01
GeneralAntillesBut wait until he hands over the frickin' libzlib00:01
qwerty12_N90009:57pm <qwerty12_N900> General:
lcukfbreader been updated to scroll?>00:02
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GeneralAntillesqwerty12's just a giant tease.00:02
qwerty12_N900I just needed the effin' volume keys00:02
lcukis libz the backend format library00:02
lcukor the ui front end?00:02
GeneralAntilleslcuk, um, neither?00:02
GeneralAntillesIt's the UI lib00:02
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realitygapsqwerty12: does it scroll? if so you are THE man00:03
lcukfbreader on liqbase o_O00:03
GeneralAntilleslcuk, it's the reason FBReader is so slow.00:03
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lcuknahhh theres many other things trasnpiring against it00:04
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qwerty12_N900realitygaps: No, I did say it only has the volume keys enabled for switching pages. But now that you come to mention it, kinetic would be cool...00:04
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GeneralAntilleslcuk, mostly libzlib, though.00:05
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N900, way too slow for kinetic.00:05
realitygapsqwerty12_N900: thats what i meant tho :) volume scroll00:05
qwerty12_N900Ah, yeah, it does that :)00:05
lcukqwerty12_N900, that was the starting point for liqbase lol00:06
lcukthe proof point00:06
realitygapsqwerty12_N900: does it need the libzlib also?00:06
qwerty12_N900realitygaps: Yeah, and should do it00:07
Xisdibikhey qwerty12_N900 no one who got a loaner was from the San Francisco bay area right?00:07
qwerty12_N900lcuk: Heh, I've just had flashbacks00:07
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lcukleeeeenucks tag00:07
* realitygaps owes qwerty12 a whole bunch of beer!00:08
realitygapsworks great, you have made my phone 10x more useful :)00:08
qwerty12_N900Xisdibik: No idea, actually00:08
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realitygapshave a long train ride to riga on friday was dreading the stylus tap scrolling for the 700 page book im reading :)00:09
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GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N900, aaaah! Brilliant!00:09
GeneralAntillesrealitygaps, you can rebind keys, you know, right?00:09
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GeneralAntillesrealitygaps, F/R fullscreen/rotate and spacebar for paging.00:10
realitygapsGeneralAntilles: yep but the lack of hardware keys made it annoying00:10
realitygapshad space for full screen and R/L for page turns00:10
Xisdibikqwerty12_N900, I had a horrible nightmare last week, except it was real,  I was waiting to transfer from one train to another on my way home from school, and every single person around me had an iphone00:10
Proteouswelcome to my world00:11
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mikhasXisdibik, horrible00:11
qwerty12_N900Xisdibik: Ah, in my college, iPhone is the phone of choice. I just want to cry00:11
Xisdibikqwerty12_N900, same at my school00:11
javispedroApple targets students now.00:12
Xisdibikmy old old phone like 2 phones ago, was an O2 XDA exec, and when the iphone first came out, people would always ask me "is that an iphone" and i would reply "F*** no its not"00:12
GiantTalkingCowWhy cry? Who cares what someone else uses?00:12
lpotter_where I work, everyone has Nokia's00:12
XisdibikGiantTalkingCow, because its sad to see how stupid people are in society/00:12
GiantTalkingCowXisdibik: What about owning an iPhone makes 'em stupid? Most people have limited needs that it addresses.00:13
XisdibikGiantTalkingCow, because there are other phones that do the exact same thing for hte exact same price, but are better?00:13
mikhasmost people want fart apps00:13
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mikhasonly the iphones delives00:13
Xisdibikmikhas, point taken00:13
GiantTalkingCowThere are plenty of other apps out there. Lots of 'em sell well. Like my GF's med school anatomy app, for example. Useful as hell.00:14
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Xisdibikalso GiantTalkingCow most of the people out their dont get the iphone for its functionality, they get it because "its the iphone, i gotta have it to be cool"00:16
realitygapsive had a bunch of people say 'oh, cool iphone' about the n90000:16
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realitygapsthen i pulled out the keyboard :)00:16
GiantTalkingCowXisdibik: That's not what anyone I know who owns one has said.00:16
XisdibikGiantTalkingCow, then your lucky?00:16
GiantTalkingCowOr you're unlucky.00:16
Xisdibiknope, im pretty lucky most of the time, so i doubt it00:17
qwerty12_N900realitygaps: Did they die in shock? Buttons? Lots of them? On a phone? :p00:17
GiantTalkingCowWell, it may be an age thing. How old are you?00:17
XisdibikGiantTalkingCow, could be a location thing as well, where do you live?00:18
GiantTalkingCowNah, can't be that then. I'm only 4 years older and most of my friends are in their 20s or early 30s. Bad luck, I say again.00:18
GiantTalkingCowIn San Francisco, California. West coast of North America.00:18
Xisdibiksame place i am :P00:18
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XisdibikIm downtown as we speak at work :P00:19
Xisdibikmost of the people who buy iphones to be cool are the so cal university students though :P00:19
GiantTalkingCowI have the day off. :)00:19
Xisdibiki have thursday off :)00:19
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Xisdibikare you getting the n900 GiantTalkingCow ?00:19
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realitygapsqwerty12: they asked wow when did apple add a keyboard. they died in shock when i said it wasnt apple00:19
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GiantTalkingCowNo idea, really. I think I'll wait a little while and see how the app support is. That said, I love stuff with a physical keyboard.00:20
realitygapsqwerty12: but one guy was like 'oh my god is that an n900 let me see let me see'00:20
qwerty12_N900realitygaps: "when did apple add a keyboard" - now that just makes me giggle00:20
GeneralAntillesrealitygaps, I've only had iPhone misidentifications twice.00:20
GiantTalkingCowWhat I don't get is why people think that everything is an iPhone. There are like 2 million touchscreen phones out there.00:21
realitygapsGeneralAntilles: ive had it every time but one. mostly on public transport or in clubs/bars00:21
GeneralAntillesGiantTalkingCow, for the same reason lots of people buy them.00:21
GeneralAntillesBecause they're clueless.00:21
GiantTalkingCowIt just occurred to me that the n900 might be a nice platform for emulators. (we were having an old games discussion in another channel)00:22
GiantTalkingCowUnlike the no-keyboard phones, controls are a cinch.00:23
StskeepsGiantTalkingCow: what rock have you been hiding under?00:23
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fralsCeron^: im quite certain thats just the downloaded patch for the game, and avira reporting a false positive00:24
GiantTalkingCowStskeeps: The one were I've been studying for the bar exam for a while, making me not so up to date on all sorts of stuff. I just found out some black guy was elected president last week.00:24
javispedrosee? that means we STILL don't have enough ads about  n900 classic emulators!00:24
XisdibikStskeeps, Granite, why do you ask? ;)00:24
qwerty12_N900javispedro: Add a fart function to DrNokSnes00:24
Xisdibik^ this00:25
tbfi wonder if those classic emulators make much sense, considering the small keys00:25
mavhcevery mp3 player is an ipod, make sense than every keyboardless smartphone is an iphone, and every keyboarded smartphone is a blackberry00:25
GeneralAntillestbf, Wiimote.00:25
realitygapsGiantTalkingCow: some of the emus are nice already, im looking for a bt joypad or something to use them to the max00:25
* javispedro wonders too many things, but enjoys the ride either way00:25
tbfcould not even imagine how to control those emulators with the accelerator00:25
realitygapswas looking at a wiimote but they are pretty pricey00:25
GeneralAntillesmavhc, I see more Moto Qs than Blackberrys00:25
andre__VDVsx, GeneralAntilles: Misha(s): don't know him. Mikhas = My Company.00:26
GeneralAntillesrealitygaps, not that pricey.00:26
javispedroqwerty12_N900: ssht! you're going to remind me that I need to work on it! ;)00:26
GeneralAntillesandre__, still not sure where VDVsx came up with the other guy. :P00:26
XisdibikGeneralAntilles, i am actualy so happy i have a wii when i saw that wiimote video00:26
javispedrowiimote pricey? have you look at how much the n900 costs?00:26
andre__maybe I missed something in the backlog00:26
VDVsxGeneralAntilles, because he's very active in tmo these days, my bad00:27
mavhcGeneralAntilles: people tell me they've bought a blackberry and show me a windows phone00:27
realitygapsthey wanted 45euro for wiimote here in estonia00:27
* qwerty12_N900 ticks Estonia off his list00:27
realitygapsjavispedro: i dont know if i would have been able to afford an n900 right now, was lucky enough to be at the amsterdam summit00:27
GiantTalkingCowrealitygaps: That's overpriced, to say the least.00:27
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GeneralAntillesAh, sucks, it's $35 USD here.00:27
realitygapslucky americans, although i wouldnt give up public transport for cheap tech :) or maybe.,....00:27
GeneralAntillesrealitygaps, regional issue.00:28
realitygapsmaybe it'll be cheaper in berlin, im heading there on the weekend00:28
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Xisdibikso wait GiantTalkingCow are you buying the n900, or just like the platform?00:28
qwerty12_N900javispedro: Yeah, finish adding the shrine to Jobs first...00:28
GiantTalkingCowXisdibik: I don't know at this point.00:28
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GiantTalkingCowWhy is it that I confuse Estonia with Latvia so often? The names sound nothing alike, nor do the capital names.00:29
luke-jrPaulFertser: Linux-OMAP supported N810 at varying degrees until 2.6.30-rc8; after that, support was removed because the code became incompatible00:29
realitygapsGiantTalkingCow: im actually right on the border between the two at the moment00:30
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timeless_mbpluke-jr: it was dropped? heh00:30
realitygapsGiantTalkingCow: i think its since they are both in the baltics perhaps? i confused latvia and linthuania a lot before i visited one of them00:30
luke-jrtimeless_mbp: thankfully Kalle Vallo (sp?) is updating it for mainline, but can only do so off Nokia-paid time -.-00:31
realitygapsqwerty12_N900: you going to post the fbreader to t.m.o? im sure some other people will be ecstatic00:31
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qwerty12_N900realitygaps: Nah, it was just a quick hack00:32
GiantTalkingCowrealitygaps: I suppose. But I know where they are, they sound nothing alike, and what's more the languages are nothing alike. (seeing as Estonian's related to Finnish and Hungarian)00:33
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N900, at least send the patch to their tracker. Maybe it'll spur some real effort for the Stars program.00:33
qwerty12_N900Generalantilles: Can't be arsed to run diff; I just shoved up the tarball on qwerty12.qole.org00:34
qwerty12_N900Generalantilles: What we really need is a way to shock people over the internet...00:34
Stskeepshmm, seems like ChromeOS components have been leaked00:35
realitygapsGiantTalkingCow: they really are nothing alike... I prefer estonia somehow, but ive spent a lot more time here so probably biased00:35
rangeStskeeps: The bling?00:35
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Stskeepsclutter, connman, slim00:36
GiantTalkingCowShocking people over the internet is easy. Tell them that whatever celebrity chick they have a crush on is actually a man. Natalie Portman, for example. Or Jessica Alba.00:36
javispedroconnman, I knew! :)00:36
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realitygapsqwerty12_N900: its just a small hack, but i was trying to get that working for a week on scratchbox already00:36
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Stskeepsmore curiously: tpm-emulator00:36
realitygapsthat fbreader/libz should replace the one in the freemantle repos i think00:36
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N900, I've been saying that for years. :P00:37
Stskeepsgoogle next up on 'evil drm'? :>00:37
GeneralAntillesChrome OS is so pointless.00:37
RST38hqwerty12: As far as I care, dipping people into shit over internet is sufficient, and it is already possible00:38
GeneralAntillesWell, except for harvesting people's data.00:38
realitygapsbut if it has 'google' written on it it will probably gain traction. im shocked how many linux users i know are running chrome00:38
realitygapsand not the iron version00:38
RST38hso what is it? another castrated linux with google chrome on top?00:38
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GiantTalkingCowGeneralAntilles: Why's that?00:39
GeneralAntillesIt's everything you need to make a web browser into an OS.00:39
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javispedrolike, an OS.00:40
StskeepsRST38h: basically00:40
Stskeepsas far as i can tell :P00:40
RST38hSts: umgh.00:40
Stskeepsoh, and -intel video driver00:40
javispedronot as castrated as android though I think.00:40
qwerty12_N900That component list is a joke00:41
Stskeepsqwerty12_N900: yeah, it's of course not complete00:41
qwerty12_N900Man, it's interesting to see what passes as an OS nowadays...00:41
RST38hqwerty: Palm WebOS does00:42
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RST38hok, sleep.00:42
mavhcit's pointless because everyone likes looking after their OS, keeping it secure, updated, etc?00:44
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wazd lol00:49
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Stskeepsthat any idiot could put up something with a CMS was a bad idea..00:52
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* qwerty12_N900 mutters something about the goggles not helping...00:54
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b-man17Stskeeps: almost done with the gui part of the new Mer Installer btw; got a couple of screenshots here: ;)01:02
Stskeepsgood, did you add error checking yet? :P01:02
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b-man17i´m working on it ;)01:03
Stskeepsyou need to test every single possibility :P01:03
Stskeepsand code path01:03
b-man17i know :P01:03
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lardmannight all01:10
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Shapeshiftermh. will there be a way to globally adjust font size?01:12
javispedroI really don't know what people see on the N900 to open so many fansites...01:14
derfIt's a consumer product. This is what consumers do.01:14
javispedroopen fansites and be excited even without exactly knowing what the product does ? :)01:15
javispedroI though that was the case. :)01:15
derfThey've seen advertisements. What more is there to know?01:15
derfAdvertisements would never lie.01:15
Anprheheh :D01:16
AveN900 is *the* nokia product of all times, a true flagship, messiah and whatever01:17
Aveit that doesnt deserve fanboyism, what does01:17
realitygapsmy mates in Am*dam were calling it 'the jesus phone'01:17
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GeneralAntillesVDVsx, ping?01:17
* javispedro was surprised when long time ago I had to tell someone "it won't run his symbian apps" which is something he assumed. his answer? "ah, what a pity. wouldn't you know when it's shipping?"01:18
Aveso, in reality, nobody has a production unit in their hands yet?01:18
VDVsxGeneralAntilles, pong01:19
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realitygapsAve: doesnt look like anyone has one yet01:22
Avethe anticipation seems to be so great its almost derailing earth from the orbit01:22
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GeneralAntillesVDVsx, mind if I room with you?01:22
KlownerI thought the guy that won one at one of the maemo meetup things at one of the nokia stores, or something01:23
VDVsxGeneralAntilles, nop :)01:23
KlownerI got to touch one on Sunday, but I dunno if it was a production unit01:23
* VDVsx is testing the maemo SDK noob edition ;)01:24
qwerty12_N900VDVsx: Ah, good job. They're waiting for feedback from their target audience01:25
GeneralAntillesrealitygaps, except for the cool cats. ;)01:25
VDVsxqwerty12_N900, ehehe01:25
javispedromaemo sdk noob edition? interesting01:25
VDVsxnow anyone can install it, good job nokia01:25
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VDVsxjavispedro, = gui installer01:25
qwerty12_N900Is that the Python script thing?01:25
VDVsxit creates shortcuts and everything01:26
javispedrobut I guess it's the same old evil.01:26
javispedrostill disables vdso01:26
VDVsxqwerty12_N900, yes, PyQt01:26
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VDVsxoh ironic01:26
VDVsxseems that Pyside isn't ready yet01:27
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Klownerstupid amazon and their mistletoe icon, taunting me.. they must want me to eat it and die01:29
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wiretappeddoes anybody here know who some of the independent retailers referred to in that nokia press release are?01:30
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* wiretapped wonders if there is a store in SF where I can buy one01:31
Testerlike amazon ?01:31
Klownerwiretapped: I wandered into the nokia store in Chicago on Sunday and they said "a couple weeks"01:32
Aveholy shit01:32
Avepeople are gonna go mental01:32
Averumors after rumors, someone oughta confirm someething01:33
KlownerI also saw them say "a couple weeks" to at least 3 other people that wandered in during the 15 minutes I was there01:33
Klownerso, I foresee riots in a couple weeks01:33
Avebut do they really nkow01:33
wiretappednewegg's date went from 11/14 to 11/30 at some point a while ago01:34
wiretappedamazon has no date01:34
Klownermy amazon pre order says it'll arrive after Christmas01:34
Klownerwith a cute little mistletoe icon to taunt me01:34
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* wiretapped has had the same LG clamshell since before the Nokia 770 was announced01:35
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* wiretapped is ready for an always-on internet tablet01:36
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wiretappedmore than ready, in fact01:36
Avealways on, if you have charger handy01:36
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wiretappedor a source of usb power...01:36
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* wiretapped has charged his 770 and N800 with a hand crank01:37
KlownerI need one of those01:37
wiretappedit didn't work well01:37
Aveoh dear01:37
Klownerwhat if you pay a toddler to crank it?01:37
Proteousthat's illegal in most contries01:38
wiretappedwhen the device had turned off from low battery... the handcrank was able to boot it up and keep it running, but after ~30 minutes of charging it ran for less than 10 after stopping01:38
wiretappedso, not particularly practical01:38
Aveyou obviously crunk too slowly01:39
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GeneralAntilleswiretapped, need a treadmill.01:41
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AveI have a dwarf hamster, I hooked up a bicycle speedometer to her wheel01:45
Aveshe runs 10 km a night01:45
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Avethink of the possibilities for recharging01:45
mikhasI applaud your scientific approach01:46
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mikhas10km seems a lot01:46
Avemaybe even more01:46
Avethe stupid meter powers off after 4 minute idle01:46
mikhasand you made absolutely sure that the hamster did not hack the speedometer?01:46
Aveyou can never know01:47
Avethere she is, eating a sunflower seed01:47
mikhasshe looks clever ...01:47
AveOR devising a cunning plan to take over the world01:47
VDVsxqwerty12_N900, do you know any workaround to open the 'session bus' in maemo in a app running with sudo permissions ?01:48
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ShapeshifterMh, I just realised that for people not familiar with linux and/or the command line, scratchbox could be quite a pain to set up. A few people are complaining on the forum. I think maemo would benefit quite a bit if the SDK was easier to use. I personally don't care, but I guess it should be on a roadmap of sorts.01:50
derfThat's what the vmware images are for.01:51
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ShadowJKThe last image i tried didn't have anything pre-setup... Though the website referenced in the readme had some instructions on which instructions tell you which instructions to follow01:52
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wiretappedVDVsx: iirc you can set DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS ?01:53
wiretappednot sure if there is another step necessary too01:53
Shapeshifterderf: ah. Are they in some obvious place? People are complaining about lack of clarity. Well, when I was looking for what to do, I came to the "install the SDK on 32-bit debian" wiki article, which worked fine for me01:54
derfShapeshifter: Google?01:54
derfThe Diablo ones were pretty easy to find.01:55
derfNo idea about Fremantle; haven't looked.01:55
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Shapeshifterderf: I'm talking about a non-maemo-regular looking for information. For example, if you google for "maemo 5 skd install" there's a whole lot about the beta SDK with being the first hit, and on that page for example, there's no link saying "HEY the FINAL is out, so ignore this"01:57
Shapeshifterthen one clicks on "Maemo SDK installer" and what he gets is an .sh file to download...01:58
mikhasShapeshifter, ideally there would be some remote virtual boxen that windows users could use, no?01:58
mikhasflashed after each use01:58
ShapeshifterSo, I'd say for your "typical windows iphone programmer" it's quite hard to get the SDK running. There's no straightforward way of knowing.01:58
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Shapeshifteron that page, there's even no reference at all to the final SDK, everything beta, at the right in the menu, only if you go to SDK releases there's a link to the nokia final SDK page01:59
VDVsxwirelessdreamer, that's probably related to the SDK, this is another issue I think02:00
Shapeshifter and here there is _no_ reference at all to the vbox images02:00
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Shapeshifterand this page is referenced on the nokia SDK download page02:00
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* realitygaps reading away on fbreader thanks qwerty12_N900 for fixing the volume scrolling 02:12
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derfVDVsx: I'm pretty sure what wiretapped said was right.02:13
derfOr I've mis-understood your question.02:13
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VDVsxderf, basically if I run the code as user or root it works, but if I run the code as user with sudo permissions it fails to connect to the session bus, but it connects to the system bus02:15
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derfI guess I don't know what you mean by "user with sudo permissions".02:16
VDVsxderf, yeah, maemo is weird, like this "sudo app name" (with the respective sudoers file in place)02:17
derfOkay, that's still running it as root.02:18
derfBut with a fresh environment.02:18
derfYou still need to set that DBUS environment variable.02:18
VDVsxderf, gonna try to export it02:19
derfpid=`ps | grep '/usr/bin/maemo[-]launcher' | awk '{print $1}'`02:19
derfexport DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS=`/bin/grep \^DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS= /proc/$pid/environ | sed -e 's/DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS=//'`02:19
derfdbus-monitor --session02:20
derfsignal sender=org.freedesktop.DBus -> dest=:1.17 path=/org/freedesktop/DBus; interface=org.freedesktop.DBus; member=NameAcquired string ":1.17"02:20
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derfWhereas if I don't do the export first I get02:20
derfdbus-monitor --session02:20
derfprocess 1464: D-Bus library appears to be incorrectly set up;02:20
derf(etc. etc.)02:20
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VDVsxderf, I found a shorter solution in the maemo docs, but can get it to work: eval $(dbus-launch --sh-syntax)02:59
derfUh, that would start a new session.03:01
derfWhich I don't think is what you want.03:01
derfI mean DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS appears to be hard-coded to unix:path=/tmp/session_bus_socket03:02
derfIf you want something "shorter".03:02
derfI was just generalizing what I use on other systems: find a known process that's connected to the session bus and get the address from its environment.03:03
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derfBut as long as it remains hard-coded to that same value, export DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS='unix:path=/tmp/session_bus_socket' should be sufficient.03:04
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VDVsxderf, let me try03:05
VDVsxderf, still getting: "Failed to open connection to session message bus: (null)"  :(03:09
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derfAnd what's the commands you're running?03:09
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VDVsxtried to export the hardcode path, but probably it failed retrieving the path03:11
derfNo, I mean the exact commands.03:11
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VDVsxderf, export DBUS_SESSION_BUS_ADDRESS=unix:abstract=/tmp/dbus-BOe5BcpUpl,guid=11e1360c2e28da0ca65812af0000023b03:14
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derfThat looks like it comes from a desktop, not the device.03:15
VDVsxderf, nop, from here:Nokia-N900-42-11:~#03:16
derfI guess they changed the hard-code path on the N900.03:16
derfWhich is why I gave you the first approach.03:16
derfBut anyway, that's only one command.03:16
derfHow are you running the actual program?03:17
VDVsxsudo app name03:17
VDVsxit's a python script03:17
derfYou're just going export ... ; sudo app name?03:17
VDVsxI did the export inside the app, probably is the cause of the problem03:18
derfNo, it would have to be done inside the app.03:18
derfOr in a wrapper script invoked by sudo.03:18
derfI don't know that export is the correct thing in Python, though.03:19
derfI would expect it to be setenv or something similar.03:19
derfBut I don't really know Python.03:19
VDVsxI'm doing os.system(export ...)03:19
derfYeah, okay, that doesn't actually do anything.03:20
VDVsxso should work as in the shell03:20
derfIt starts a shell with its own environment, in which you set the variable, and then that shell immediately exits.03:20
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derfAnd the parent process (the Python script) is unaffected.03:20
VDVsxbah, so I should use os.putenv03:21
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derfThat sounds promising.03:21
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VDVsxit sets environment variables03:22
Shapeshifterphew.... roaming should get cheaper damn it. A lot cheaper. I get 1GB traffic in my country for 29 bucks, while 1MB of traffic costs 5-15bucks when romaing.03:22
Shapeshifterinsane prices03:22
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VDVsxderf, ah now the error changed, so the var is affected03:25
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derfIf you control the Python script, another simple way to get the right value to it should be to pass it on the command-line.03:29
mzzVDVsx: os.environ probably, actually.03:29
mzzVDVsx: (check the docs, modifying os.environ affects the actual environment too, but calling os.putenv directly doesn't update os.environ, iirc)03:30
derfAnyway, time for me to go.03:30
mzzalso, if this is about sudo: sudo's env stripping is configurable03:30
VDVsxmzz, I know, but putenv is enough in this case, I think03:32
VDVsxmzz, what to do meant by configurable, didn't get it :P03:32
VDVsx*do you03:33
mzzVDVsx: man sudoers, it mentions env03:33
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pupnik_US soldiers, you CAN get out of the army!  Read Ayn Rand and discover why aggression is wrong!  If you learn theÃlessons, you CAN GET OUT of the US Military!!!03:52
GeneralAntillespupnik_, US military is all-volunteer. :P03:52
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dmj726the risks of open source conversation is funny04:11
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GAN900dmj726, didn't you hear? It steals your credit card information and beats your dog.04:47
GiantTalkingCowWhat does?04:47
Klownermy neighbor?04:48
fernando_your neighbor using OO.o?04:48
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dmj726Oh yeah...I'm so worried about the inherent insecurities in Ubuntu and how all the FOSS apps in the repos are going to turn out to be trojans.04:48
GiantTalkingCowI'm worried that Ubuntu is dog slow compared to decent distros, and yet gets the lion's share of media attention despite sorta sucking. Thankfully, tomorrow's Google OS announcement will steal its thunder but good.04:50
fernando_will it?04:50
dmj726um...ChromeOS?...erm :-/04:50
GiantTalkingCowYes, that.04:51
dmj726what's good about it?04:51
fernando_will chrome OS play flash video out of the box? :D04:51
fernando_(kidding lol)04:51
GiantTalkingCowNo one knows. But it's Google branded, meaning it'll have millions of people looking at it no matter what.04:52
GiantTalkingCowIt might even be good.04:52
GeneralAntillesIt's a browser that's pretending to be an OS05:00
GeneralAntillesIt'll be nothing of the sort.05:00
GiantTalkingCowWe'll see soon enough. After all, Windows is a waste of space pretending to be an OS, and that's not stopped people from buying it.05:02
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fernando_microsoft should pull a google and make the next version of windows just IE905:03
fernando_I mean, er...05:03
microlithGiantTalkingCow: if ChromeOS is anything like I expect, it won't. It'll just be Android for PCs.05:04
microlithAlso, ubuntu is great if you don't like futzing around with configs and stuff.05:05
GiantTalkingCowmicrolith: For a lot of people, that'll be great. I wouldn't mind running something like that on a netbook.05:05
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GiantTalkingCowUbuntu is Linux done wrong, imo. Not because I'm against simplification at all, I just think that re-inventing the wheel and then taking years to get it right isn't a good direction for a desktop distro.05:05
realitygapsmicrolith: ubuntu is great when it works, and sucky when it doesnt05:06
GeneralAntillesmicrolith, for the overwhelmingly vast majority of people that's great.05:06
GeneralAntillesIn fact, that's the only optio.n05:06
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GeneralAntillesmicrolith, it'll be less than Android. At least Android has applications.05:06
microlithI wouldn't care to use it for the same reason that I'm after Maemo, that it particularly it's not Java05:06
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microlithGiantTalkingCow: what else was doing what ubuntu does years ago?05:06
realitygapspclinuxos, mandriva, suse?05:07
GiantTalkingCowYears ago? Corel Linux. Like a decade ago.05:07
GiantTalkingCowIt's still one of the most usable Linux distros I've ever tried.05:07
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microlithI spent most of my time battling redhat and gentoo05:09
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GiantTalkingCowFunny as it sounds, I think that Linux for the desktop was in some ways better off years ago, due to the GUIs being slightly more sensible. Now we have stuff like the upcoming Gnome-Shell.05:11
* GiantTalkingCow shudders.05:11
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pupnik_maemo, go home05:15
pupnik_the internet is over05:15
pupnik_secret meeting in south korea05:15
microlithyou beat the end boss?05:15
pupnik_deep packet inspection for copyright holders05:16
fernando_The Man has won05:16
pupnik_we failed05:16
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realitygapsi think nokia will manage to mess it up... they seem to be good cop/bad cop with the community at times05:25
microliththey're not winning fans with the release of the N900 :>05:26
fernando_yet why oh why can't we distance ourselves from them? they're like an abusive husband, and we keep coming back for more05:26
fernando_(wait what)05:26
realitygapsthey had many fans when they were about to release but ppl are getting a bit pissed now...05:26
microlithrealitygaps: I placed my order on sept. 3rd, and between the headset incompatibility and the no-info it's quite annoying05:27
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realitygapsbut no-one else is making even relatively open hackable systems that i would look at05:27
fernando_(2 weeks, people overreact too much)05:27
microliththat said, I'm not gonna stress over it05:27
microlithrealitygaps: very true05:27
realitygapsits worth the wait imho, i love this n900 its what ive been waiting for since the psions and zauruses05:28
GeneralAntillesrealitygaps, a few hundreds of idiots with too much free time are getting "pissed".05:28
realitygapsGeneralAntilles: i think they missed the critical mass point where everyone was talking about the n900 tho05:28
GeneralAntillesIn the large scale of things it's pretty meaningless.05:28
realitygapsalso a bit lame that testing roms arent being pushed to the ppl who will properly test them but kept internal05:29
GeneralAntillesMeh, it wont matter much in the large scale.05:29
GeneralAntillesrealitygaps, that's not a trivial thing to do.05:29
realitygapsGeneralAntilles: probably wont matter that much. but i still dont understand why thats not so trivial05:30
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realitygapsits not like we are noobs or anything05:30
GeneralAntillesrealitygaps, because there's 3rd-party and proprietary software involved.05:30
GeneralAntillesShipping uncertified Flash to consumers isn't an easy thing to do.05:30
fernando_one day, when humanity is long gone, aliens will come to earth, find google data centers, read about our civilization and thing "man, nokia sure pissed off people by delaying this thing for a couple weeks"05:30
realitygapsthats true didnt think about the flash05:30
GeneralAntillesNokia's also got their own first-party stuff.05:31
realitygapsbut week 46 release has flash 10?05:31
GeneralAntillesFlash 10 was announced for next year.05:31
GeneralAntillesEach release has to be certified.05:31
realitygapsexactly, but some ppl have the week 46 rom already05:31
GeneralAntillesPeople with NDA's. :)05:32
GeneralAntillesOr people who know people violating NDAs.05:32
realitygapsah ok, thx for pointing that out05:32
realitygapsi avoid nda's like the plague05:32
GeneralAntillesThen you wont be testing any pre-release firmware for the time being. ;)05:32
realitygapsi guess not. but i never saw a sane NDA :)05:33
realitygapsand surely NDA would prohibit posting screenshots like some ppl have done05:33
realitygapsi just get this feeling sometimes that nokia is playing us all :)05:33
realitygapsbecause they know we are all hooked already05:34
realitygapsat the same time they do cool stuff like the loaners05:34
realitygapsgood cop/bad cop feeling......05:34
realitygapsbut they seem to have their reasons05:34
realitygapsas you've pointed out05:34
GeneralAntillesEr yeah05:37
GeneralAntillesThey aren't playing us05:37
GeneralAntillesThere are just business realities that tend to escape the average open source advocate. :)05:37
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realitygapsits true, once you are deep in the FOSS world you lose sight of business realities and fixate on the freedom i guess05:38
GeneralAntillesand the freedom isn't something big companies with boards, shareholders and lots of employees can just dive right into.05:39
realitygapsvery true05:39
realitygapshonestly they do a better job than sharp did with the zaurus line IMHO, esp. with community05:40
GeneralAntillesNokia blows Sharp out of the water.05:40
GeneralAntillesNokia's behavior is completely unprecedented in this industry.05:41
GeneralAntillesand there's a lot to be said for rewarding behavior you agree with.05:41
realitygapsdefinitely, but in the end it must make sense for them as a business opportunity or they wouldnt be doing it right?05:41
GeneralAntillesOf course05:41
GeneralAntillesand what's wrong with that?05:41
realitygapsnothing :)05:41
GeneralAntillesEverybody ends up winning.05:42
realitygapsi sure hope so05:42
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realitygapsi know that theyve made the devices we were dreaming of, so im on their side for the forseeable future05:42
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realitygapsi wouldnt have thought id have such an open phone in my pocket so soon05:43
realitygapsso kudos to nokia on that for sure05:43
realitygapsi hope its the gamechanger we imagine it to be05:43
realitygapsand thanks GA for the reality check :) as my nick shows sometimes i have gaps in that....05:44
aepnoooo. n900 out of stock D:   damn hype05:45
realitygapsis anyone working on fosdem proposals btw, there are only a few days left....05:46
GeneralAntillesThink there was a thread on maemo-developers.05:46
realitygapsthink that was for - bangalore05:47
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dmj726Bounce Evolution is proprietary, right?06:30
mzamy n900 is on the way!06:30
dmj726mza: yay!06:30
mzawow! someone ported xeyes06:30
* mza twirls finger06:30
dmj726Isn't xeyes like the hello world of X applications?06:31
mzamy n810 is the only "gadget" ive ever gotten that ive used every day since ive gotten it06:31
Testermza: impressive ;)06:31
mzaall i want is caldav06:31
Testerdoes evo on the desktop do it ?06:32
mzaopenvpn has been ported right?06:32
mzai dunno:(06:32
mzadoes it support google calendars?06:33
mzacause that's caldav06:33
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mzai dont see openvpn06:37
mzaon maemo.org06:37
mzais there somewhere i can browse the apt repo?06:37
fernando_(I assume it will work with minimal porting with the N900, but dunno)06:38
dmj726it's in extras-devel06:38
mzayea, that's what i mean, i see it for OS200806:39
mzaand use it on the n81006:39
mzaim really curious about the mail client06:39
mzadmj726, thx, that's cool06:41
mzanow we just need an applet and a user/passwd save;)06:41
mzaavahi! nice06:41
fernando_what we really need is something like
fernando_yes yes (is there one already?)06:42
mzai wish!06:43
mzaopenvpn is better cause you can push routes06:43
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ShadowJKi run openvpn at system level not user level :/06:53
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greenflymza: openvpn /used/ to work before I upgraded the firmware, but now the package can't seem to find the libzlo2-2 package it needs07:20
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* timeless_mbp sighs08:10
timeless_mbpwould someone please remind me to mention to the next finn who talks to me about which stupid character set SMSs use?08:11
aolI'm pretty sure you can write sms in chinese or russian too08:12
`0660_what do the finns tell you about the charsets? :)08:13
`0660_aol, that article does mention unicode sms messages08:13
timeless_mbpaol: not using 160 chars08:14
RST38hMan Spoke Only Klingon to His Son for Three Years08:14
aolall righty :)08:14
timeless_mbpthe key is that :a is one of the privileged single 7bit chars08:14
aolI guess finns originally thought only finns would be using this SMS thing :)08:15
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timeless_mbpa finn supposedly sent the first mobile originated sms...08:16
timeless_mbpbut it wasn't designed by finns at all08:16
timeless_mbpsounds like it was germans/frenchmen08:16
aolI'm in the impression that the modern phones have always had the 140 char limit ...08:17
aol7bit is supposed to have 160char limit08:17
aolso maybe it has been obsoleted quite early08:18
timeless_mbp160 was the final limit :)08:18
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timeless_mbpbut really there are a whole bunch of limits, 70, 140, 160, 67, 133, 15308:21
luke-jrhow about 6bit08:22
* timeless_mbp sighs08:23
timeless_mbpstupid standards08:23
timeless_mbpnowhere does it mention anything about RTL08:23
timeless_mbpso i guess it's shoehorned in08:23
timeless_mbpprobably under the "surprise me" category08:23
luke-jrmaybe it's like IRC RTL08:24
luke-jrif the character set is flagged RTL, the text is considered RTL08:24
luke-jrso Arabic characters cause the line to go RTL08:24
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Venomrushok it's the 19th nov08:28
Venomrushwas told when i called on the 9th that they'll start shipping today..08:28
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Venomrushlet's see what'll happen08:28
timeless_mbpluke-jr: there's no character set flagging in irc08:28
timeless_mbpthat's a myth08:28
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luke-jrtimeless_mbp: the flagging is in the OS or font or something08:29
luke-jrsomewhere the OS knows Arabic is RTL08:29
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timeless_mbpluke-jr: see.... this would almost be ok if the lines in question were pure Arabic08:30
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timeless_mbpand the 'os' for the most part doesn't care at all08:31
timeless_mbpin fact, there really isn't much of an 'os' her08:31
infobottimeless_mbp meant: in fact, theree really isn't much of an 'os' her08:31
timeless_mbpthere's basically shaping, glyph lookup/rendering, and someone doing display08:31
timeless_mbppretty much all of this is done more or less at the application level08:32
timeless_mbpbut things aren't remotely interesting until one mixes an RTL language with an LTR language08:32
timeless_mbpuntil then it falls under the category of "who cares"08:32
timeless_mbponce you mix them, it falls under the category of "surprise me, sounds exciting"08:32
timeless_mbpthis is just so wrong08:35
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RST38h"What's your job" thread is probably the most informative thread on tmo for the last 2 months...08:47
RST38hhello, konttori08:47
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kirmacould it be spiced up by "I'm canceling my preorder" and "but does it have digital compass" messages?08:50
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RST38hkirma: DON'T.08:50
kirmaI don't that's sure :)08:50
RST38hThere are unusually few attempts to hijack it08:51
RST38hProbably does not contain any proper keywords08:51
RST38hMoorning, Myrtti, tekojo08:54
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Myrttithe thread about what's your job is fun, but I'm too boring to write anything to it08:56
johnxMyrtti, what do you do?08:56
RST38hMyrtti: cat herder? =)08:57
PaulFertserluke-jr: i've heard about it, right. But what option is left for an ordinary user? Stock maemo kernel just doesn't work properly with an external card-reader... and too old anyway.08:57
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johnxRST38h, that was an awesome commercial :D08:57
* RST38h pulled that one out of his brain, did not see any commercials08:57
PaulFertserluke-jr: and btw do you probably know about nokia plans wrt properly mainlining n900 support?08:57
johnxyou're missing out. let me find it08:57
Myrttijohnx: software developer for a Finnish company, doing documentation infrastructure atm.08:57
luke-jrPaulFertser: partial08:58
johnxMyrtti, ha! i used to be an english teacher :P nothing to worry about in terms of boring08:58
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Myrttihooray, no spam!08:59
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epa_anyone here with latest firmware (on n900)09:01
johnxepa_, 42-11 here09:01
johnxwhat's up?09:01
*** Flyser has joined #maemo09:01 it just me or are there suddenly a lot of clueless threads basically saying "Make me an app"09:01
epa_johnx: can you verify a 'bug' on calendar software for me?09:01
johnxalright, what are the steps?09:01
johnxdmj726, they come in waves09:01
tekojoepa_ what kind of bug?09:02
RST38hjohnx: Oh. Shit.09:02
epa_open calendar, in monthly view "brush" left it goes one month forward09:02
johnxdmj726, just ask them for $10,000 now and another $10k on completion. tell 'em it's your special rate09:02
epa_johnx: brush left it goes one month back09:02
epa_johnx: select a week09:02
epa_johnx: try same09:02
RST38hjohnx: /me guessed "IBM" but missed09:02
dmj726I can understand the "Let's brainstorm a new community project" but the "I don't know programming, do this for me please." is just too much09:02
epa_johnx: does it work to both directions for you09:02
dmj726not a bad idea09:03
RST38hdmj726: Let's brainstorm thing is no different, really09:03
epa_johnx: I can only go back in weekly view. not forward at all.09:03
RST38hdmj726: Just worded a bit more politely09:03
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johnxepa_, i can go back and forth pretty easily09:03
epa_johnx: ok incorrect. I can go forward, but not the same way I go in montly view09:03
epa_johnx: ok.09:03
dmj726I got some nice UI ideas for the video editing thing that way09:03
tekojoepa_ explain more? what's not the same way?09:04
johnxepa_, I can swipe up/left down/right in month view, but only left and right in week view09:04
epa_tekojo: going back and forth in calendar09:04
tekojohere it works like johnx just said09:04
epa_johnx: you do the movement so that the stylus is outside of the screen and then you just brush left or right?09:05
johnxah, not coming from outside the screen09:05
johnxjust swiping left and right with my finger/fingernail09:05
tekojoAh, start with the stylus/finger in the screen area09:05
epa_johnx: for me going forward in week view works only if I press screen and then wait a bit and then brush09:05
tekojoit only works from outside from left to right09:06
epa_tekojo: not in monthly view09:06
epa_in monthly it works both ways09:06
tekojoTrue :-D09:06
tekojoneed to tell the people who did it09:06
epa_tekojo: ok so 'anomaly' confirmed09:06
PaulFertserluke-jr: could you please elaborate a bit more?09:06
epa_I do not know if it is a bug or a feature :)09:06
johnxor which part is the bug :)09:07
tekojoYes, please open a bug, or if you have, say the number and I'll confirm09:07
epa_johnx: true09:07
luke-jrPaulFertser: Nokia does not to my knowledge plan to release code for all the hardware in the N90009:07
epa_tekojo: I'll try to write it up09:07
PaulFertserluke-jr: i'm talking about the kernel stuff.09:07
tekojonot a feature in calender, only in browser and some other places09:07
luke-jrPaulFertser: the kernel stuff is insufficient to boot09:07
luke-jror at least to use09:07
PaulFertserluke-jr: what exactly is missing? ofono guys promised support for the gsm part.09:08
luke-jrPaulFertser: battery charging09:08
RST38hMaemo5 does not use ofono09:08
PaulFertserRST38h: not yet09:08
PaulFertserRST38h: but Marcel told me they plan to support it.09:08
johnxwow, inside the maemo5 lifespan?09:09
RST38hBut, again, I do not see how releasing the WHOLE source code is so important09:09
tekojoluke-jr for what hardware are you trying to compile the kernel for?09:09
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RST38hPaul: In Maemo6, no doubt?09:09
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luke-jrtekojo: nothing09:09
johnxRST38h, a lot of it's interesting for people with non-Nokia hardware09:09
tekojooh, so you just want to read the code?09:10
PaulFertserluke-jr: i can't really understand how it can be too hard to trigger battery charging given kernel support is present. Even if it's userspace toggling something over gpiolib, it shouldn't be hard to strace the proprietary shit.09:10
johnxPaulFertser, it's a userspace binary-only daemon09:10
RST38hjohnx: some, yes, in order to have a working desktop09:10
luke-jrPaulFertser: IIRC, the hard part is the algorithms09:10
tekojofor battery stuff ask Stskeeps, he knows a lot of how the battery works09:10
johnxRST38h, Nokia's modifications to the userspace part of the SGX OpenGLES2 lib09:11
PaulFertserRST38h: i do not know a thing about maemo* numbering scheme and i do not think distro matters much. Marcel told they'll support n900 gsm modem in several months after the public sale.09:11
RST38hjohnx: Ah09:11
PaulFertserluke-jr: charging LiIon batteries in a sane enough way is not really hard, i do not understand what magic algorithms you're talking about.09:11
luke-jrPaulFertser: me either, Nokia won't give us code09:12
RST38hPaul: iiiiinteresting...09:12
luke-jrand my reverse engineering hasn't gotten that far yet09:12
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PaulFertserRST38h: basically as far as i understood they plan to open ISI library that knows how to communicate with nokia modems over phonet etc. There's already some support in their repo.09:13
johnxPaulFertser, that is very cool news :D09:13
epa_johnx, tekojo: I made a report can you verify it is understandable.
povbotBug 6246: Controlling calendar app is not consistent.09:14
PaulFertserluke-jr: come on, charging LiIon batteries _is_ simple. To charge you use CC-CV unless it reaches the nominal maximum voltage, monitoring the temperature during the process.09:14
XisdibikRST38h: dont you ever sleep! :O09:14
johnxepa_, makes sense to me. and it's definitely weird09:15
PaulFertserluke-jr: but to treat battery gently it's really not recommended to keep it charged over ~75% of capacity, especially if it's in a hot place (near the other components that heat it).09:15
luke-jrPaulFertser: that means pretty much nothing to me :)09:15
PaulFertserluke-jr: after it reached the nominal voltage, the charging should be stopped until it degrades to ~75% again by normal usage discharge.09:15
epa_johnx: makes me start to wonder that maybe nokia does not have consistent 'gesture/input' libray09:15
epa_that it uses for the apps.09:15
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johnxepa_, or if it's just done on a one off basis...09:16
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XisdibikPaulFertser: So in english your saying what?09:16
PaulFertserluke-jr: and that's all. You need to avoid deep discharge. Basically all the rules, i can't understand what "algorithms" you're talking about.09:16
epa_or maybe someone just forgot one gtk hook from there.09:16
PaulFertserXisdibik: wrt ofono or battery charging?09:16
RST38hXisdibik: I hibernate!09:16
Xisdibikbattery charging09:16
XisdibikRST38h: during what season? :p09:16
johnxPaulFertser, it's basically just a matter of either 1) running nokia's binary bme daemon or 2) doing a little reverse engineering to understand the raw values that the kernel space driver is spitting out from entries in /sys09:16
RST38hlike right now09:16
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XisdibikYou certainly dont look suspended to disk09:17
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johnxmost people do (1) when they're running non-maemo distros. some people complain about not having (2) available, but don't care enough to do the research09:17
PaulFertserXisdibik: i can't understand why nokia's binary-shit battery charging daemon is a problem to get a free OS supported on nxxx because battery charging is not inherently complicated and there's strace to track how the binary daemon uses "open" kernel interfaces.09:17
johnxRST38h, ?09:18
RST38hjohnx:Nothing, just piece of a string from the buffer09:18
* RST38h switched to a different laptop09:18
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johnxso anyways, now you have an image to pop into your head whenever someone says "herding cats" :)09:19
PaulFertserXisdibik: i also do not understand why the hell nokia doesn't release the code for that daemon since charging LiIon batteries is not a secret nowadays.09:19
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johnxPaulFertser, something about liability and having to jump through legal hoops inside the company09:20
RST38hjohnx: Have you seen guys creating moving artwork out of sheep with christmas lights?09:20
johnxRST38h, yeah, saw that one. not entirely sure how much of it is real09:20
StskeepsPaulFertser: what nokia is really good at is power saving.. so there might be a lot of IP in it09:21
PaulFertserjohnx: why can't they just "leak" enough info to easily write a replacement? Since when leaking some tiny piece of information that is interesting only for "those not-understanding a thing about business free software extremists" is hard?09:21
RST38hjohnx: Hey I am not sure about the cats either =)09:22
PaulFertserStskeeps: power saving is not about battery charging.09:22
johnxRST38h, well of course WRT to the cats. It's just a mental aid for picturing :)09:22
Stskeepsok, power management09:22
PaulFertserStskeeps: you save power by turning off unused devices and tweaking frequencies/voltages. Shouldn't prevent anybody to charge his battery.09:22
RST38hThe United States and China have agreed to step up discussions on cooperative space exploration09:23
luke-jrStskeeps: I think what PaulFertser is pointing out is that releasing basic usage docs shouldn't be a problem09:23
PaulFertserluke-jr: is my english _that_ bad it needs additional explanations? :(09:23
* RST38h kinda remembers that the battery charging code should be way deeper than the userspace, more on the boot loader level09:23
johnxanyways, there is documentation on *reading* most of the battery related into, IIRC, just not *writing* to those interfaces09:24
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RST38hBecause the device should be able to charge even when it is off (really OFF not asleep)09:24
johnxPaulFertser, probably assuming Stskeeps hasn't read the scrollback, and no your English is just fine :)09:24
Stskeepseither way, i doubt bme is getting opened anytime soon due to a lot of factors.09:24
johnxRST38h, it can charge a bit when off, but you've noticed it always turns on when charging, right?09:25
XisdibikPaulFertser: whats wrong with the daemon09:25
PaulFertserBTW, probably there is somebody can tell about the usb host support on n900, it'd be really nice to finally hear the details if it's really unsupported or just officially unsupported or requires an external power source.09:25
Stskeepswhat -can- happen would be patches to make it work on later kernel if it doesnt work there09:25
RST38hjohnx: yea, but never fully turns on09:25
MyrttiPaulFertser: it's a hardware restriction AFAIK09:25
RST38hjohnx: it basically runs something at the level of the boot loader09:25
StskeepsPaulFertser: otg is out of the picture, but usb host is not sure09:25
johnxRST38h, that "charging" screen is drawn by X1109:25
PaulFertserXisdibik: what's wrong with being a proprietary shit? Hm, i'm not sure i can really explain that in a few words now.09:25
PaulFertserjohnx: thnx :)09:25
luke-jrRST38h: it doesn't charge without Linux running and BME in userland09:25
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Stskeepsluke-jr: it does charge a lil bit in nolo09:26
johnxPaulFertser, did you already read the maemo-devel thread on it? I think that might be the most info anyone has right now09:26
RST38hWell, N810 definitely does not boot linux while charging09:26
PaulFertserMyrtti: more details are needed, the SoC can definetely act as a usb host.09:26
StskeepsPaulFertser: how about we drop the ideology and stick to technical discussion? much more productive.09:26
luke-jrRST38h: it definitely DOES09:26
PaulFertserjohnx: that one talking about usb certification? Doesn't tell a bit to me. :(09:27
RST38hMmm? I can keep it plugged in and it will charge09:27
luke-jrRST38h: with Linux booted09:27
RST38hBut I am not getting Linux until I hold the power button09:27
johnxRST38h, you mean that "battery meter" screen?09:27
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PaulFertserjohnx: in fact it's just ridiculously stupid to trade usb host for fucking USB Logo on a box :-/09:27
johnxput some code early in rcS.d/ and watch it run if you don't believe me09:27
Stskeepsgive me reports on whats broken in N8x0 BME. and no, not being open is not 'broken' in that discussion09:27
luke-jrRST38h: you're not getting Maemo until you hold the power button. Linux is always running.09:27
RST38hjohnx: yea, guess so. whatever it shows when I plug it into power when it is off09:27
* RST38h starts getting it, slowly09:28
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luke-jrStskeeps: it is not trusted.09:28
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johnxRST38h, it doesn't start hildon-desktop, but it is drawing that silly battery meter with X11, unless I'm quite mistaken09:28
johnx(known to happen :) )09:28
RST38hjohnx: Interesting =)09:28
luke-jrjohnx: the boot menu isn't X1109:28
XisdibikPaulFertser: so its just the opensourceness thats the issue, i thought that the daemon was broken or something because you were talking about 75% or some other thing09:29
johnxluke-jr, duh09:29
* RST38h wonders what was Nokia's issue with the 3.5mm power plug09:29
RST38hOr EUs, for that matter09:29
luke-jroh right, forgot the battery charging meter thing was post-menu09:29
Stskeepsluke-jr: its like a dog that hasn't bitten you forever, no reason not to trust it. it works fine for its general purpos09:29
PaulFertserXisdibik: i was explaining how exactly to treat any LiIon battery to get the maximum lifespan. Talking about the algorithm, not the implementation.09:30
johnxPaulFertser, from your point of view (and mine), but from the position of trying to market the phone I guess they went with the logo09:30
luke-jrStskeeps: does it? I'm pretty sure i've pointed out some pretty major bugs before09:30
luke-jrlike that stupid reboot cycle thing09:30
johnxthough I think they might not even be able to claim the interface was "USB" at all09:30
JaffaMorning, all09:30
JaffaGeneralAntilles: belated pong09:30
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PaulFertserXisdibik: and no, i don't care about "opensourceness", i care about the freedom, quite a difference here. And if the daemon is not free you'll have all kind of technical problems too, e.g. when you want to update your libc or there were plenty of troubles on OABI->EABI switch etc.09:31
StskeepsPaulFertser: in that particular case i probably would be able to rebuild stuff. :P09:31
luke-jrStskeeps: unless you're out of a job and Nokia long out of business09:31
johnxPaulFertser, well, we aren't having bme related problems, running ubuntu jaunty/karmic on the N8x0...09:32
Stskeepsluke-jr: reboot loop happens on diablo too.09:32
luke-jrStskeeps: and what if my new optimized ABI is proprietary and not for your eyes?09:32
luke-jrStskeeps: "happens on diablo" somehow makes it less of a bug?09:32
Stskeepsthen you'd be a hypocrite09:32
johnxreboot loop is silly use of watchdog, not anything else. how is that related to the battery?09:33
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luke-jrStskeeps: nope, you're missing the point09:33
Stskeepsno, i'm going back to my coffee09:33
PaulFertserStskeeps: do you mean you have access to the sources? Or know a magic way to do OABI->EABI conversion?09:33
luke-jrjohnx: BME forces teh system to reboot09:33
luke-jrPaulFertser: Stskeeps is an employee09:33
johnxluke-jr, no, we're pragmatists, and you're whining on IRC about something you haven't taken the time to reverse engineer09:33
* RST38h is tired of proprietary vs open-source agrument. Who the hell cares, except for luke-jr?09:33
luke-jrjohnx: I have taken LOTS of time. It's big.09:33
Stskeepsluke-jr: distmaster, yeah09:33
RST38hIt is a gadget. It should work. If Nokia maintains its firmware, Nokia fixes it.09:34
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luke-jrStskeeps: free software is about being able to do what I want with my product. it does not mean the software goes to anyone who wants it.09:34
PaulFertserluke-jr: being a nokia employee doesn't mean an ability to do anything useful i'm afraid. I was amazed to hear that the ALSA developer from Intel can't find out anything about their windows drivers.09:34
RST38hAll the talk about "what happens when Nokia out of business" is not worth a penny, as your device will be out of business long before Nokia09:34
johnxPaulFertser, in this case it really isn't a problem actually. BME runs out of Nokia's initfs, and if you leave it alone you can pivot_root into whatever distro you want09:34
luke-jrRST38h: Nokia *doesn't* fix it.09:34
RST38hluke-jr: But that is a completely different issue09:35
luke-jrRST38h: not really09:35
RST38hTo stay competitive, Nokia is supposed to start fixing it09:35
luke-jrNokia shouldn't have to fix it.09:35
luke-jrThey don't sell it anymore.09:35
RST38hOr face what it is facing now with S6009:35
johnxluke-jr, I highly doubt that most of the reboot-loops were caused by BME09:35
luke-jrjohnx: all of mine are.09:35
johnxluke-jr, doesn't that just mean your battery is dead?09:36
luke-jrminus the having-a-bootmenu-default-that-panics09:36
PaulFertserjohnx: hm, that's a decent hint to why when i boot Debian directly from SD the device just powers off in 65 seconds.09:36
luke-jrjohnx: it means the battery ran down, yes09:36
PaulFertserjohnx: great thanks!!!09:36
luke-jrjohnx: and it occurs when plugged in, preventing it from charging reasonably09:36
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johnxPaulFertser, augh! you missed my huge article on this :)09:36
suihkulokkion x86 laptops you get charging in bios/acpi/embedded controller - all propiertary software you can't change09:36
johnxPaulFertser, I was facing the same thing circa January 2008 or so09:36
johnxyou can also turn off watchdog with the flasher09:37
StskeepsPaulFertser: oh, look at solcas nitboot stuff09:37
luke-jrsuihkulokki: none of which gets in the way of rewriting everything on the system, AFAIK09:37
StskeepsPaulFertser: he ran bme and such under later kernels09:37
luke-jrStskeeps: how about Macer's OpenSolaris? :)09:37
Stskeepsluke-jr: i am a happy opensolaris and freebsd user.09:38
luke-jrBME runs on OpenSolaris?09:38
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suihkulokkiluke-jr: unless you want to change the bios to free software like the coreboot people09:38
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johnxluke-jr, opensolaris supports any of the other hardware on the system?09:38
luke-jrjohnx: it could, if I ported it09:39
johnxluke-jr, great, while you're at it, strace bme09:39
luke-jrjohnx: strace doesn't give me any useful info09:39
johnxit should tell you what it's writing to /sys, yes?09:40
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luke-jrjohnx: I've already decompiled a number of functions in BME by hand09:40
Stskeepsjohnx: it's illegal to encourage people to kill themselves isn't it? ;)09:40
luke-jrjohnx: yay, a bunch of random numbers that mean absolutely nothing to me09:40
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lardmanmorning all09:40
luke-jrStskeeps: I doubt you could be prosecuted across national borders.09:41
johnxluke-jr, people know the meaning of the numbers coming out of the stuff in /sys. there is a battery meter that doesn't use bme at all...09:41
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luke-jrjohnx: I don't. :p09:41
luke-jrand what battery meter is that?09:42
luke-jrthe only thing anywhere close to what you describe is a BME client that just talks to BME09:42
johnxkcbatt I think09:42
johnxreads from retu and tahvo (sp?) directly and interprets the results09:43
johnxmaybe it doesn't help, but I'm just saying people have been down this trail before and gotten somewhere09:43
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RST38hluke-jr: Not selling it anymore is no longer an excuse09:43
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lardmanRST38h: except the chipset is probably still used in some phones09:44
RST38hluke-jr: Both Google and Apple continue supporting older hardware, to a certain degree09:44
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luke-jrjohnx: it's easier to do things like that when it's just a go-between09:44
lardmanah support, thought you were talking about releasing details09:44
luke-jrbut in the case of charging, arbitrary numbers go in, arbitrary numbers go out09:44
RST38hSo, dropping support as soon as you stop selling the device is now considered a disadvantage09:44
johnxluke-jr, have a voltmeter?09:44
* suihkulokki googles kcbatt and interesting:
RST38hlardman: No, just supporting hardware09:44
luke-jrjohnx: somewhere09:45
PaulFertserjohnx: yep, it's damn hard to find any decent info on running proper OS's on n810 :(09:45
johnxget it out, stick the leads between your battery and n800...09:45
lardmanPaulFertser: stick to Diablo or try Mer09:45
johnxPaulFertser, have you heard of mer?09:45
PaulFertserjohnx: lardman: yep, yep.09:45
lardmanwhat do you mean by proper then?09:45
luke-jrlardman: he said proper09:45
lardmanwell gentoo is out then :p09:46
luke-jrproper OS to me means not platform/purpose specific09:46
johnxlardman++ :)09:46
johnxluke-jr, isn't a framebuffer console to purpose specific?09:46
lardmanall well and good, but if your platform is constrained, it seems silly to run an os designed for larger screens, no touchscreen, more memory, storage, etc, etc.09:46
infobotjohnx meant: luke-jr, isn't a framebuffer console too purpose specific?09:46
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PaulFertserluke-jr: what's important for me is to run an OS that follows mainline, and uses the minimum of proprietary stuff. I wanted to run Debian but it's a bit too hard to debug boot issues without the serial console :-/09:47
lardmanPaulFertser: is Debian mainline these days, not 4 years behind? ;)09:47
luke-jrPaulFertser: Gentoo is the best you'll find for that09:47
PaulFertsersuihkulokki: (x86 laptops) DSDT can be changed. And anyway the fact it works like that doesn't mean it's good. E.g. i blame my laptop for killing its battery :-/09:47
lardmanPaulFertser: if by proprietary you mean the apps, then try Mer09:48
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LupuFrom what I've heard Arch would match that description, but I don't have personal experience with it.09:48
PaulFertserluke-jr: what about the kernel stuff?09:48
johnxPaulFertser, I can guide you on that if you want to do it by hand. you'll need a usb cable and a linux desktop09:48
thuxhey experts, ot, how i remove all that apt-get build-dep wine installed ?09:48
lardmanPaulFertser: if by proprietary you mean the underlying sw, then you can also try Mer. But getting rid of all the proprietary stuff will lose funcitonality09:48
luke-jrPaulFertser: Gentoo isn't picky about kernels.09:48
PaulFertserjohnx: :)))09:49
PaulFertserjohnx: i've already patched the kernel to have console output on the FB, i think i'll manage by myself, but thanks for the offer :)09:49
PaulFertserOh, since you're all experts here, can anyone tell me about the cmdline ATAG passed by the bootloader? What is the best way to alter the kernel cmdline?09:50
johnxPaulFertser, you have an N810?09:50
PaulFertserjohnx: my friend has. But he's just a user.09:50
luke-jrPaulFertser: AFAIK, the cmdline needs to be in the kernel.09:50
johnxah, so you're on an N800?09:50
StskeepsPaulFertser: cmdline is usually hardcoded in kernel afaik09:51
PaulFertserjohnx: i need to help him with his specific needs (run QCad and other popular soft, work with external CF cardreader etc).09:51
PaulFertserjohnx: i'm on openmoko freerunner :P09:51
johnxah, fun stuff09:51
PaulFertserStskeeps: i'd say it's not that usual.09:51
lardmanI can't see why you couldn't compile QCad for Diablo09:51
StskeepsPaulFertser: usually = usual on n8x009:51
* luke-jr was so close to buying a Freerunner, but then realized GSM service was exceedingly expensive :/09:51
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johnxwhen I got debian running on the N800 I did it with g_ether and utelnetd since I didn't know the magic to make my usb keyboard work at the time09:52
PaulFertserStskeeps: "On some architectures (EBSA110 and CATS), there is currently no way for the boot loader to pass arguments to the kernel. For these architectures, you should supply some command-line options at build time." I guess it suggests that modern way to do it is to supply it via bootloader with ATAG.09:53
RST38hluke-jr: Freerunner couldn't even make calls out of the box, if I remember correctly09:53
luke-jrRST38h: I couldn't care less about the box.09:54
PaulFertserluke-jr: you didn't lose much, i do not enjoy experience of using a FR. But it is cool for programming and the community is very nice.09:54
luke-jrPaulFertser: even w/ the new stuff that fixes the crap?09:54
PaulFertserThat said, i'm still using it as the only cellphone for about a year by now.09:54
johnxPaulFertser, actually seems like quite a bit of linux-based embedded stuff doesn't get passed it's cmdline from the bootloader09:55
PaulFertserluke-jr: the new stuff is much better.09:55
johnxZaurus, Nxx009:55
PaulFertserlardman: one thing is compiling QCad and everything else you need by yourself, the other is "apt-get install qcad". I'd prefer the latter.09:55
luke-jrmy contact lenses run Gentoo and need cmdline embedded in the kernel...09:55
PaulFertserjohnx: Zaurus is mad old, same about Nxx009:56
lardmanPaulFertser: I see, but then you swap the work of compiling QCad for the work of getting e.g. Debian running on the platform; I think the former would probably be easier09:56
johnxPaulFertser, so, want me to try apt-get install qcad from mer for you?09:57
* Stskeeps wonders if he should be worried he uses a IA-32 Intel Architecture Software Developer's Manual volume to put his flatscreen in the right height09:57
PaulFertserlardman: i really hoped Debian would "just work" on that. Apparently that's not the case and i guess the most nasty problem is nokia's "opensource" policy and unfriendliness towards free software.09:57
PaulFertserjohnx: do not bother, i'll do it myself soon.09:58
lardmanhmm, not sure where you got that opinion?09:58
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Stskeepslardman: anything not free software is obviously unfriendly09:58
PaulFertserlardman: because debian runs on almost all popular hardware that is open enough. Apparently nxx0 is not.09:58
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lardmanPaulFertser: it would certainly run, if someone ported it09:59
StskeepsPaulFertser: at least you can run your own kernel.09:59
lardmanand that's you at this point09:59
johnxthe biggest block I ran into was actually watchdog, which is easily shut off with the flasher09:59
Stskeepsdebian runs fine. we just don't maintain it as it's not worth it :P09:59
Stskeepsyou'll have to use bits in initfs, but so it goes10:00
PaulFertserStskeeps: yep, i can run my own kernel but maemo doesn't work with it. Or i can run something else but it lacks support for the proprietary parts nokia decided to hide without any decent reason.10:00
StskeepsPaulFertser: actually the reason why kernel doesn't work is because some kernel interfaces were changed/removed10:00
PaulFertserStskeeps: yep, now i understand the importance of initfs :(10:00
StskeepsPaulFertser: cos of noone bothering to keep n8x0 kernel support up to date10:00
PaulFertserStskeeps: and the reason for that is that nokia was stupid/selfish enough to not push nxx0 support mainline and use standard kernel interfaces intead of inventing their own.10:01
luke-jralso because Nokia's blobs require kernel bugs :)10:01
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johnxthe reason the latest kernels don't run on the N8x0 with all the features enabled has much less to do with Nokia's open source policy and much more to do with lack of maintenance10:01
StskeepsPaulFertser: there was originally not even sane omap support in mainline..10:01
luke-jrPaulFertser: actually, it's more because initfs uses static /dev instead of udev10:01
Stskeepsless talk, more doing10:02
* Stskeeps goes do work10:02
luke-jrPaulFertser: the only real practical issue with Gentoo and a fairly recent kernel is the GPS blob10:02
johnxPaulFertser, if you run into problems, I can probably get you up into debian in ~30 minutes. If you want to stop by #mer we're happy to have you10:02
Stskeepscurrently working on getting toolchain proper for initfs. that's openness you can actually touch.10:02
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PaulFertserStskeeps: i see it like this: free software for Nokia is a cheap whore, rather than a lover. That's about the attitude.10:03
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lardmanI see it more like this: some things are only available with NDA, therefore they can't be shared; some things add competitive advantage, therefore they aren't shared10:04
StskeepsPaulFertser: not going to bother discussing, sorry. i'm much more of a practical person than running on ideology.10:04
PaulFertserjohnx: the key was the importance of the daemons started from initfs. Thanks again for that :) And yes, quite possibly i'll try mer sooner than later.10:04
zaheerm-lpPaulFertser, heaven knows what it is for Palm/others then :)10:04
StskeepsPaulFertser: no matter your ideology, i will gladly help out in seeing what's up with your boot stuff though10:04
luke-jrlardman: so take from the community and give back only what is worthless10:04
PaulFertserlardman: "competitive advantage" looks more like a myth to me. I've never seen any proof it really helps to hide the code to get that.10:05
johnxabout Nokia/open source: they actually do pay the bills for a ton of people who contribute to open source projects, such as bluez, linux-omap, etc10:05
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lardmanwell stuff like the charging daemon which would provide info about their chipsets, they don't want people ripping off their GUI apps, etc.10:05
johnxthe proof is in the commit logs from (and @collabora and @indt)10:05
PaulFertserStskeeps: ok, thanks a lot to you too :) I hope i'll come next time with more nice words :)10:06
lardmanI don't necessarily agree, but I can see the reasoning and am content10:06
luke-jrjohnx: interesting to note Kalle Valo has to do N8x0 mainlining off work hours10:06
Stskeepsluke-jr: no, he's doing that voluntarily, not 'has to do'10:06
lardmanluke-jr: Well it's not paid for any more as the platform is dead....?10:06
luke-jrStskeeps: but it's not on time he's paid for10:06
luke-jrthat's my point10:06
lardmanI don't get paid to do this either10:06
Stskeepsluke-jr: companies have release schedules, and so it is10:06
PaulFertserjohnx: i know they pay several quite important developers. But not because they support free software, rather because they use it. The same prostitute/lover analogy.10:07
johnxluke-jr, not saying that nokia is perfect, but they catch a much worse rap than they deserve10:07
luke-jrThe company exists for the customers and employees.10:07
luke-jrNot vice-versa.10:07
lardmanno, the company exists for the shareholders10:08
luke-jrI couldn't care less about "the company".10:08
RST38hjohnx: So, have we gone to Conspiracy phase while I was away working?10:08
luke-jrlardman: no, that misconception is why modern companies are so flawed10:08
lardmanhow is it misconceived?10:08
johnxyeah, tired of talking10:08
RST38hlardman is essentially correct10:08
johnxRST38h, nah, just Nokia bashing cause they don't give people the code to grenade their batteries10:09
RST38hPaulFertser: We are all here in pay of Nokia. You should eat the blue pill quick to get back to comfortable reality.10:09
PaulFertserjohnx: if you think a proper LiIon battery is easy to "grenade" (not raw cell, but the whole battery!) you're wrong.10:09
RST38hjohnx: I would not10:09
lardmanreally if someone wanted to and was willing to fry a couple of batteries, they could work out how the hw worked10:09
johnxRST38h, you make it sound like we're not all just one guy with multiple nicks :)10:09
PaulFertserRST38h: i will10:09
RST38hjohnx: Battery charging and powersave code is so...mmmhm...specialized, that it is not of much use to OSS community anyway10:10
PaulFertserlardman: batteries include protection circuits on its own, even old bl-5c does.10:10
RST38hjohnx: Also very sensitive in terms of NDAs with SoC manufacturer (i.e. TI)10:10
RST38hjohnx: Of course we are just one guy, we are the puppets10:11
PaulFertserlardman: and the cases where batteries failed are due to the manufacturing process, that couldn't have been helped by any "specialised" software.10:11
luke-jrN8x0 battery charging has nothing to do with TI10:11
Stskeepsluke-jr: actually there might actually be10:11
Stskeepstwl something10:11
PaulFertserStskeeps: how come?10:11
RST38hjohnx: I suggest we declare Qgil to be the puppet master and spread this information as wide as possible, so the next time he comes here he gets mighty surprised =)10:11
lardmanPaulFertser: I bow to your superior battery wisdom, but we don't actually know if the Nokia batteries has heat cutouts do we?10:12
suihkulokkiluke-jr: which wifi driver do you use on your gentoo-n8x0 ?10:12
johnxRST38h, heh. that poor guy catches so much crap :)10:12
RST38hPaulFertser: Ok, let me put it plainly for you:10:12
luke-jrsuihkulokki: depends on which kernel is booted10:12
PaulFertserRST38h: if you claim the code is useless to everybody anyway, why not just  release it and let others decide if they like it or not?10:12
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RST38hPaulFertser: There are two things in your gadget firmware with which you DO NOT want to mess AT ALL10:12
PaulFertserlardman: no heat cutouts i guess.10:12
RST38hPaulFertser: These are battery charging and clock control10:12
RST38hPaulFertser: the second one may also be known as power save to some people10:13
PaulFertserRST38h: tell me the way to do something nasty with a modern LiIon battery please.10:13
RST38hPaulFertser: Notice that I am not working for Nokia and am in fact talking based on my experience with a different, non-OMAP chip10:13
PaulFertserRST38h: i have some spares so i can afford experimenting.10:13
PaulFertserRST38h: not about raw cell, but about a good battery.10:14
RST38hPaulFertser: The reason why you do not want to mess with them is because what they do heavily depends on the analog circuitry inside your device, the battery type used, etc.10:14
PaulFertserI've read of no report ever about LiIon batteries doing anything nasty because of being mistreated. Only manufacturing deficiencies that are unrelated to the charging software.10:15
RST38hPaulFertser: If people start messing with item #1, they will most likely get dead batteries (not necessarily exploded) and/or dead devices in some cases10:15
PaulFertserRST38h: and _I_ want to know and understand analog circuity inside _my_ device, i think that's a reasonable expectation.10:15
lardmanI don't10:15
RST38hPaulFertser: If people mess with item #2 (power save) they again end up with dead batteries (just over longer period of time) and sometimes with dead SoC chips10:15
lardmando you want to know how the combustion swirl is achieved inside your car engine?10:16
luke-jrlardman: you don't-- by your choice or by someone else telling you no?10:16
PaulFertserRST38h: i got a dead battery in my laptop already, i think if i could control it it would serve me longer.10:16
RST38hPaulFertser: Now, if you would like to understand how battery charging and powersave features work in modern SoCs, I suggest you start with Google and Wikipedia10:16
lardmanluke-jr: You may want something, but it being a reasonable expectation is another matter10:16
PaulFertserlardman: (engine) interesting10:16
RST38hPaulFertser: I am sure this information should be in the open somewhere, just not on the particular SoC (OMAP3)10:16
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luke-jrlardman: it is perfectly reasonable to expect Joe to have no say about what Fred does with Fred's device.10:17
PaulFertserRST38h: how is battery charging related to any SoC?10:17
RST38hPaulFerster: If, after reading up on these subjects, you STILL want to mess with your device, talk to Sts or lardman and they will tell you what they know10:17
Venomrushanyone know why some apps in the repo aren't displaying in App Mgr even after refresh?10:17
PaulFertserRST38h: as to the clocks, there's also an important issue: mainline support.10:17
johnxVenomrush, showing up for other people but not you? or showing up in apt but not the GUI app manager?10:18
RST38hPaulFertser: If all you want to do is bitch about how it is Nokia conspiracy and how "all code should be free", keep in mind that we have heard it many many times here. So you are being boring, not revolutionary10:18
lardmancharging is carried out by a chip10:18
PaulFertserRST38h: kernel interfaces do and will change. And that is for good. Having all dynamic clocking needed for you device upstream helps a lot. And not having it frustrates community developers to no end.10:18
PaulFertserRST38h: (being boring) always is, not a surprise10:18
Venomrushin GUI app mgr10:18
johnxVenomrush, are they in the right "Section:"?10:19
johnx"Section: user/foo" for example10:19
RST38hPaulFerster: Once again: you do not want to mess with clocks and SoC core voltages unless you KNOW wat you are doing10:19
RST38hPaulFertser: In fact, even with an official set of datasheets it is unadvisable10:19
PaulFertserRST38h: but i've read some important stuff about liion batteries. And i've seen schematics. And i'm taking care of pcf50633 driver which charges batteries on our freerunners.10:19
Venomrushnope, not even in any, i 'scanned' throuh All, not there either, Search didn't show up with anything10:19
RST38hPaulFertser: Then your itch to mess with battery charging should be satisfied :)10:20
PaulFertserRST38h: unless i need to run free software on n810, yes.10:20
johnxVenomrush, that's not exactly what I mean. If the section isn't "user/*" then it won't show up10:20
* RST38h has no problems running free software on n81010:21
Venomrushjohnx, i don't quite understand10:21
johnxif it's in the repo, and you tell me the package name I think I could look and tell you10:21
lardmanhmm, anyone here used maemo-version?10:21
lardmanI have, amongst other things: gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad-dev | maemo-version (<5.0)10:22
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lardmanyet on Diablo it's complaining: mbarcode depends on gstreamer0.10-plugins-bad;10:23
johnxVenomrush, from the x terminal, run apt-cache show <your package>10:23
johnxit should say "Section: <something>" if that "<something>" doesn't match "user/*" it won't show up in the application manager10:23
Venomrushjohnx, repo: extras-testing | package: iNES10:23
johnxVenomrush, for maemo4 or maemo5?10:24
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RST38hVenomrush: I am sorry, are you using a real N900?10:24
Venomrushi'm using SDK btw10:24
Venomrushnot real N9010:24
RST38hVenomrush: Then forget about running iNES, AlmostTI, etc10:24
Venomrushany particular reasons?10:25
* RST38h now understands what is going on10:25
RST38hWon't work on the SDK.10:25
Venomrushah, what's the reason?10:25
RST38hThat is the reason :)10:26
VenomrushDoes flash work in SDK?10:26
RST38hWho knows...10:26
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lardmanemulation issue?10:26
* RST38h stopped trying running anything on the SDK after file-open dialog crashed it in Chinook10:26
johnxVenomrush, aaaah, so you're on the X86 target. got it10:27
lardmanyeah, I don;t bother either10:27
RST38hlardman: Well, there are huge chunks of handwritten ARM assembly in my stuff10:27
RST38hlardman: It is banging fb0 like crazy10:27
lardmanyeah, that would be troublesome for the x86 target ;)10:27
Venomrushjohnx, yup i'm on x86 target10:27
RST38hlardman: And the ARM emulation in the SDK is a freaking minefield10:27
Venomrushshould i change?10:27
johnxyeah, I'm positive ines won't compile for x8610:27
lardmanyeah, I've seen that10:27
RST38hVenomrush: You should get a real device.10:27
RST38hjohnx: Well, it will, just not the Maemo version :)10:28
johnxRST38h, right10:28
VenomrushRST38h i pre-ordered since Sept mate..disappointed still haven't receive it10:28
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VenomrushRST38h, not able to get it through DDP too atm10:28
RST38hWell, just wait then10:29
johnxVenomrush, just wait a little longer. the SDK really isn't that great for a lot of things, especially emulators10:29
lardmanwhere is Jeremiah when I need debianisation help!?10:29
RST38hBecause SDK will not get you very far in terms of use. It is for developing apps not for running them10:29
Venomrushthanks guys10:30
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PaulFertserRST38h: btw, if you can give some particular advice or example of ill effects due to messing with clocks/voltages, it'd be very nice of you; it can help me in my future activities. Zaranee spasibo.10:32
RST38hPaulFertser: Well, I can only talk of personal experiences10:33
PaulFertserRST38h: so can you share some?10:33
RST38hPaulFertser: First of all, you have to take into account that your CPU and SDRAM clocks are usually related through a divider10:33
RST38hPaulFertser: And there is only a handful of their combinations, you can't change them at will10:34
PaulFertserRST38h: sure10:34
RST38hPaulFertser: Now, SDRAM chips usually do not go faster than 160MHz or so10:34
RST38hPaulFertser: And even at these frequencies they become flakey10:34
PaulFertserRST38h: PLLs, dividers, different clocking options, maximum frequencies, that's well known.10:35
RST38hPaulFertser: Also, even if you THINK you have got the right clock frequencies, and they are in allowed ranges, other IP blocks included into the SoC may start breaking down, so you have to keep CPU/SDRAM clocks down10:36
PaulFertserAnd btw recent advaces in Linux are making handling of all the constraints, gating option etc much easier than it used to be.10:36
RST38h(in my cases it was the display controller DMA causing memory conflicts)10:36
RST38hMan, this has nothing to do with Linux. Has everything to do with the physics of particular chips. May even differ in behavior from one batch of chips to another.10:37
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RST38hAlso, higher clocks require higher core voltages. Higher core voltages cause exponential grow in power consumption and also add heat10:38
PaulFertserRST38h: i understand that hardware limitations are inevitable. But they become more manageable with a good clocking framework inside the kernel.10:38
RST38hFor example, one of Nokia guys wanred us that we should not keep OMAP3 at top clock rates for long time, as it will physically damage the chip10:38
PaulFertserRST38h: was it true?10:39
johnxno one knows yet :)10:39
RST38hPaulFertser: They become manageable with a good engineer who has access to classified information and tunes your low level firmware before you get to play with your Linux on the device10:39
PaulFertserjohnx: TI should10:39
johnxI'm looking forward to the first person finding out10:39
RST38hPaulFertser: Wanna test it?10:39
johnxPaulFertser, they didn't design the N900's case10:39
suihkulokkiomap3 trm is public and it should have pretty much all clock/pll/divider etc info10:40
RST38hCorrect: this stuff depends on the Soc itself, the place on the board where it is mounted, the heat transfer rates through the case, the analog circuitry, the battery, etc10:40
johnxand the cpufreq code would be a pretty good guide as well, I'd imagine10:40
PaulFertserRST38h: (low level firmware) how is dynamic clocking can be managed then? With the help of the firmware hooks outside the kernel? I didn't think that is considered a good option by the core Linux devs.10:40
RST38hAnd even if it works for you, it may break for 5 people out of a 100 and Nokia still has a support disaster10:41
suihkulokkithere is no firmware :) it's all in the kernel.10:41
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RST38hsuihkulokki: there is still a bootprep of some kind, I reckon?10:41
PaulFertserjohnx: you know how the rumors spread. Probably somebody at nokia tried running at top speed and the case got hot and he told somebody that it shouldn't be done etc.10:42
lardmanyeah the bootloader sets up the hw10:42
RST38hPaulFertser: I do not know. In the SoC I worked with, running EA Linux, it was partially managed by the kernel, and there also was some low level library that kernel used10:42
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RST38hPaulFertser: By all means, get an N900 and try overclocking shit out of it10:42
lardmanPaulFertser: the guy who said it is involved in low level stuff, so I believe what he said10:42
PaulFertserlardman: sets up the initial state. But PLLs and gating is managed on kernel level thereafter.10:42
suihkulokkiRST38h: some stuff is preset in the bootloader and ofcourse there is bootrom to find the boootloader, but it doesn't do anything after the boot10:43
johnxPaulFertser, like I said: I'm looking forward to someone seeing if it's true10:43
johnxeither way, I'm sure I'll enjoy the results :)10:43
RST38hsuihkulokki: Aha, pretty much corresponds to what I have seen with other platforms10:43
suihkulokkieg. it is not like pc where the kernel calls the acpi firmware to do power managment10:43
RST38hsuihkulokki: bootprep sets SDRAM config, initializes clocks and power to some safe configuration, then boots Linux and lets it do the rest10:43
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RST38hAnd the kernel is linked ot a few manufacturer supplied files that do low level stuff10:44
PaulFertserlardman: i hope there's no chance for misunderstanding him? Did he mentioned the temperature? Or what?10:44
lardmanhe didn't say why, just said not to do it10:44
RST38hlardman: my guess is that you also start hitting corner cases at higher frequencies10:45
suihkulokkiRST38h: yeah, but the clocks and sdram config is modified from the kernel all the time as kernel switches the omap3 off whenever nothing is done on the cpu10:45
lardmanI would have assumed thermal, but I guess the SoC has thermal protection, so presumably something else10:45
PaulFertserlardman: sorry, but claims like that doesn't sound credibly. Quite the opposite :(10:45
lardmanwell it's credible in my eyes10:45
RST38hlardman: as in "when memory accesses are x cycles apart, the second access returns garbage"10:45
lardmanRST38h: that won't break the device though, and that's what he said iirc10:46
RST38hlardman: then it must be thermal10:46
johnxlardman, what's the motive for getting up on stage and not telling the truth about that topic?10:46
PaulFertsersuihkulokki: i think it's not calling acpi firmware, it's rather intepreting acpi-scripts.10:46
lardmanI'll just send him an email and ask what the outcome is shall I?10:46
lardmanjohnx: none, I quite agree with you10:46
lardmanjohnx: I didn't suggest that10:46
johnxlardman, sorry. wasn't aimed at you :)10:46
lardmanlol, np10:46
RST38hsuihkulokki: yea, in the kernel I have seen, there was a whole power management framework for that with arrays of settings for each power level10:47
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PaulFertserRST38h: so in the end kernel devs want to mess with clocking ;)10:47
RST38hsuihkulokki: the more or less generic Linux part was responsible for converting these settings to whatever low-level lib understood and calling that lib10:47
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RST38hPaulFertser: to a degree10:48
RST38hPaulFertser: although usually these settings get tuned by the electrical engineer not by linux kernel devs10:48
PaulFertserRST38h: if you say kernel should use a proprietary lib to do that, you're never getting upstream support i guess.10:48
RST38hPaulFertser: you have made a pointless statement10:48
suihkulokkiRST38h: if you mean by lib "clock framework" yes10:49
RST38hThey do not NEED "upstream support" for 3-4 files with functions that midify their own proprietary SoC registers10:49
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RST38hsuihkulokki: in the code I have seen they simply used a few files from their pre-linux platform to do the low level stuff, with the standard linux clock framework calling them10:50
PaulFertserRST38h: they do need upstream support so the user can just git clone a recent bug-fixed feature-full kernel and use it without additional compatibility problems to solve.10:50
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javispedrowhat's up with everyone calling the SDK the "Maemo emulator"?  *sigh*10:51
TheUserPaulFertser: What is "git"? What is "clone"? What is "kernel"?10:51
TheUserPaulFertser: I just want to play a movie on my N900, ok?10:51
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RST38hjavispedro: You should ask Venomrush10:51
suihkulokkiRST38h: the stuff n900 does is all included in the board-rx51* files in the kernel10:52
RST38hjavispedro: He planted that idea :)10:52
javispedroTheUser: what is compatibility? what is problems? waht is bug? what is feature-full? ;)10:52
RST38hjavispedro: Exactly :)10:52
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PaulFertserRST38h: come on, you enjoy using mainline kernel on your laptop, do not you? Would you prefer to go through pains of compiling it with some strange vendor-provided lib every time you want to update the kernel version?10:52
RST38hPaulFertser: No10:52
RST38hPaulFertser: I run WinXP.10:52
RST38hNext question?10:52
javispedroPaulFertser: if that allows me to run nvidiacrappy 3d graphics, I'd consider it.10:53
javispedroin fact, I DO it.10:53
RST38hsuihkulokki: I guess for them it was the result of having a complete platform when they started doing Linux10:53
PaulFertserjavispedro: i'd prefer to lack 3d support altogether. Or use ati or intel cards that have some more sane policy towards good OSs.10:54
RST38hsuihkulokki: Did not want to drop and rewrite everything. But they did stick all those files into a proper platform directory under the Linux src tree :)10:54
javispedroPaulFertser: well congrats. OpenMoko is still on business :)10:54
RST38hPaulFertser: So you should probably stick with Freerunner10:54
RST38hPaulFertser: Even with OpenMoko out of business, the People should be able ot maintain it forever10:54
RST38hIt is OSS!10:55
PaulFertserRST38h: unfortunately it sucks in too many aspects too. :(10:55
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RST38hPaulFertser: BTW, can you make phone calls with it?10:55
PaulFertserRST38h: i use it as my only cellphone for a year now.10:55
PaulFertserRST38h: and yes, i can make and receive phone calls.10:55
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PaulFertserGPRS support is there too. But not EDGE. Not even mentioning 3G.10:55
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RST38hPaulFertser: You know that Soviets already tried technological progress based on sheer enthusiasm once?10:56
javispedroI guess the morning "it's not full OSS" argument is going to become a tradition here.10:57
RST38hPaulFertser: Are you aware of the results?10:57
PaulFertserRST38h: if you're talking about "intensifikatsia" during Gorbachev's times, yes.10:57
RST38hNo, I am talking about the whole encihlada10:57
RST38hES10xx series, SMxxxx series, ES184x (PC clones)10:58
RST38hPocket calcs10:58
PaulFertserRST38h: i drive a soviet car ;)10:58
RST38hA Lada?10:58
PaulFertserRST38h: vaz21013 1200cc 198310:59
PaulFertserAll schematics are available :P10:59
javispedrooh no, no, no, the maemo emulator "concept" is leakinga all over the web :(10:59
PaulFertser(well, in fact no, i do not have schematics for the ingition module)11:00
RST38hPaul: You know that they are still MAKING those?11:00
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lardman Yay!11:00
PaulFertserRST38h: i think AvtoVAZ doesn't produce 2106/7 anymore. They're focused on Chevy Niva, Lada Kalina and some other "modern" shit.11:01
RST38hPaul: In spite of the whole country basically screaming to close the factory, kill all the workers and bury them in a mass grave, and cover the whole place with aslphalt?11:01
javispedroSpanish research! don't trust.11:01
RST38hPaul: 2106/2105/2107/2104 production has now been moved to Chechnya11:01
lardmanjavispedro: well I can trust it if I like the sound of it :)11:01
* RST38h laughs diabolically: no more bombs, now these guys can just produce the mobile capsules of death =)11:01
PaulFertserRST38h: so it's not "they" who are still producing that ancient models.11:01
RST38hPaul: 2109 is no more modern than 210711:02
PaulFertserRST38h: the soviet technological progress was based on military requirements, not on a sheer enthusiasm.11:02
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RST38hPaul: Just in case you wonder, 2170/71/72 is pretty much a 2110 in a slightly restyled body11:02
lardman cool11:02
lardmanhi hrw11:03
RST38hPaul: Let me see... no competition, no profit, no salaries... Must be sheer enthusiasm, right?11:03
PaulFertserRST38h: i think i can compare 2109 and 2107, 2109 is really better. Much better suspension system, better steering etc.11:03
RST38hPaulFertser: Why don't you compare 2109 with a Ford Escort?11:04
PaulFertserRST38h: there was also fear. And competition, even tenders among different organisations.11:04
javispedrooh, there's now a rumour out there which guarantees you're going to receive a free dc-11 (external battery) as compensation for the n900 delay.11:04
lardmanjavispedro: where's all this stuff coming from?11:05
* lardman wonders why no-one has compiled Maemo-mapper for Fremantle11:05
javispedrolardman: (spanish)11:05
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PaulFertserRST38h: have never driven a ford, so unfortunately not. But i can compare with Daewoo Nexia. Basically it's as shitty as my 2101.11:05
Stskeepslardman: crashed last time i tried to use it personally11:05
lardmanStskeeps: is it available somewhere?11:05
Stskeepsin git repo11:05
lardmanah ok11:05
tigertdid gnuite move on or what happened to maemo-mapper development?11:06
* lardman thinks of Ordnance Survey map overlays11:06
lardmantigert: he's working for Google now11:06
* suihkulokki wonders how autovaz has failed to modernize so badly11:06
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tigertlardman: ah11:06
tigertthe black hole of hackers :(11:06
lardmanso I think slight conflict of interest too11:06
tigertthat too yeah11:06
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* javispedro notices the mail the quote looks totally fake11:06
lardmannow that it's a bit later in the morning, has anyone here used maemo-version?11:07
suihkulokkiI mean, china, korea, india and the rest of east europe where at the lada 2101 stage in the '80s too, but the managed to actually keep with times and are now even exporting to europe11:07
javispedrolardman: I use maemo-version but not on build-depends11:07
javispedrowell, I put in in build-depends as is then use the /etc/maemo_version file to conditionally build on debian/rules file11:08
lardmanseems to work for build depends, just not for the installation package11:08
javispedrothe package is not on device11:08
javispedroonly sdk repo11:08
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javispedrooh, cool windows.11:08
lardmanjavispedro: yeah but I guess when the control file is created it should strip out those packages which weren't used?11:09
javispedroa giant popup opened telling me there was a Visual C++ runtime error in firefox.exe11:09
hrwPaulFertser: anyway Lada 210x is Fiat 12411:09
javispedrobut it still works.11:09
hrwdid someone got DDP n900 shipped?11:09
PaulFertsersuihkulokki: russia as a whole is too fucked up, no wonder a big former state-sponsored car manufacturer can't do anything in a decent way.11:09
javispedrolardman: just don't depend on maemo-version, only build-depend11:09
lardmanballs, I see my mistake now11:09
* lardman hides in shame11:10
RST38hPaul: Let us leave bastardized korean opel alone11:10
javispedrowhy I have this feeling that if I click "OK" on the runtime error popup the entire perfectly working firefox will close11:10
RST38hPaul: Compare to a normal contemporary car of the same class11:10
* javispedro clicks11:10
PaulFertserhrw: not exactly. Soviet engineers modified it somewhat. E.g. Fiat 124 has rear disk brakes while 2101 features rear drum brakes. Also many other little features that were actually important at the times, like better and more sturdy suspension to drive on shitty roads etc.11:11
RST38hPaul: Escort, Mazda 323, even Kia11:11
RST38hPaul: And yes, you are allowed to compare to 2110 if you wish11:11
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RST38hPaul: You will immediately see what I mean by non-profit development leading nowhere11:12
* javispedro_ sighs11:12
PaulFertserRST38h: so, what's your point? That avtovaz can't make a decent car? No doubt. But can you offer me a decent alternative to the old Niva? As cheap, as reliable, as small and as suitable for (not so) moderate offroad?11:12
suihkulokkirecent developments: "VAZ has also tried to get into the sportier markets: several Ladas were factory-tuned and given a Momo steering wheel."11:12
RST38hPaul: My point is that you need business competition, with all the "bad" things that flow from it11:12
RST38hPaul: Little Honda HRV works for us here11:13
hrwPaulFertser: sure. Polish guys also improved Fiat 125 during production of Polish Fiat 125p/FSO1500/Polonez11:13
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RST38hsuihkulokki: VAX is a Russian Amtrak.11:13
PaulFertserRST38h: price and offroad qualities are not comparable i think.11:13
RST38hVAZ, sorry11:13
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RST38hPaul: As far as I am concerned, HRV is enough. Neither of them has a frame, and if you want a Russian offroad, get a freaking UAZ11:14
PaulFertserRST38h: i think that the competition should be technical, not business. When the best feature/framework/device is judged on technical merits, not by some illiterate guys who can't even compile a kernel themselves.11:14
RST38hPaul: And deal with Willis GP hardware designed in 1940s11:14
RST38hPaul: Technical merits do not pay for food.11:15
RST38hMoney does.11:15
Stskeepsanyone got a n8x0 handy? does /mnt/initfs/lib/ contain anything with c++?11:15
PaulFertserRST38h: you're talking like it's hard for any educated westerner to get enough food. Come on, it's not about the food. It's about buying useless consumerists things. You do not really need much money for food.11:16
RST38hPaul: Mmmm...///11:16
* RST38h will let educated westerners answer that11:16
lardmanStskeeps: no11:16
lardmanas in *c++* ?11:17
hrwStskeeps: o11:17
hrwStskeeps: no11:17
lardmanmy caviar and champagne for dinner every night makes a fair hole in my pay packet11:18
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PaulFertserRST38h: if you want a "decent" house, car etc, and take loans even for the furniture, then of course you need money. But if you do not value imaginary goodies, you can probably get by doing whatever you like.11:19
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RST38hSo you do not want a decent house? And you do not need a car?11:20
alteregoIt's expensiv even for a not decent house where I live ..11:20
RST38hAnd eating out of garbage bins is fine?11:20
lardmanI guess hand held electronic devices come under the not needed category11:20
RST38hlardman: Freerunner.11:20
hrwRST38h: that useless imitation of devboard?11:21
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PaulFertserRST38h: i live in a flat here. And buying a new flat in Moscow is impossible for an ordinary engineer anyway, so i do not even bother thinking about that. I can buy a more modern car but i do not need it, i can live without a car whatsoever. And i do not need no fucking furniture.11:21
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alteregoCalm down :P11:22
* RST38h bought a flat in Moscow11:22
PaulFertserhrw: that useless device is my only cellphone. And i met quite some nice people and learned a lot while having fun with it. So it's definetely worth it.11:22
RST38hPaul: But we were talking about educated westerners ;)11:22
* lardman heads to work, bbiab11:22
PaulFertserRST38h: tell me russia is not Europe11:22
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Stskeepshrw: k11:23
RST38hPaul: It is Eurasia, the second part is important11:23
hrwPaulFertser: ok, for you it is worth. I have two neo1973 devices and do not remember when list time touched any of them11:23
PaulFertserRST38h: so you mean it's easier to live doing "honest" engineering in russia than in the usa?11:23
PaulFertserhrw: you're on the other level of involvment.11:24
RST38hPaul: I know of very few places in Russia where you can do engineering11:24
RST38hPaul: Most of them are offices of foreign companies11:24
RST38hPaul: Let us count: Sun, Boeing, Intel, Cisco11:24
javispedrotypical tmo thread: is there handwriting avail? qwerty: NO! there's this beta soft you may want to help. tmo user: ah, so THERE IS handwriting.11:24
RST38hjavis: qwerty should stop at NO11:24
PaulFertserRST38h: i do not think i'd like working for corporations11:25
Stskeepsat the moment i'm pondering if PB's hacker forum wasn't a bad idea.11:25
RST38hPaul: who do you work for then?11:25
PaulFertserRST38h: small company that produces UPSes for telephony and other electronical stuff.11:25
aquatixRST38h: :)11:26
PaulFertserRST38h: and btw i could easily live by doing private tutoring, teaching maths/physics/programming or something like that. It's really easy.11:26
RST38hPaul: Yes, but will you be creating something new?11:27
RST38hPaul: Are you creating something new right now?11:27
RST38h<will be back in ~5-10 minutes>11:27
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PaulFertserRST38h: i can make a living working part-time so i have plenty of free time to do whatever i like, including creating something new. And btw even helping fellow openmokoers is important in my opinion.11:28
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hrwheh... when I will finally clean desk..11:29
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PaulFertserHonestly, to me it seems like earning money is overrated, most people get more than they need and yet feel unhappy because they're trapped in a consumerist society.11:33
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hrwPaulFertser: it depends on where you live, do you have family or not and few other things11:33
PaulFertserhrw: indeed. But still. "Nice" car or "nice" bed or other thingks like that is what most engineers have. Meaning they've earned enough to buy things thinking that buying makes one happy.11:35
* aquatix drives a 1996 car and is quite happy11:35
PaulFertserIt's about the life attitude. /me would prefer sleeping on the floor or DIYing a bed rather than buying one.11:37
* aquatix doesn't have the time for DIYing one :(11:38
aquatixof course i can make time11:38
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RST38hPaulFerster: lemme guess: single, no children?11:40
hrwaquatix: I sold my 97 one and drive 2006 one11:41
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aquatixhrw: i might do something similar after next year, which will be an expensive year :)11:42
alteregoRST38h: "single, no children, no job"? :)11:44
RST38halterego: hey, that is unfair he has got a job11:45
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floriangood morning11:45
RST38hI just doubt the desire to sleep on the floor is gonna last through his marriage11:46
alteregoLooks like no-one will get their devices before Christmas :)11:47
javispedroI though the NIH virus only affected corporations, not individuals.11:47
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alteregoIs Deja-Vu a valid source? :)11:47 guy got a release phone for review yesterday ;)11:47
RST38hdepends on the drugs you used11:47
alteregoO, yeah, Americans always win . :(11:47
viqalterego: he's not american11:48
viqCentral Europe.11:48
RST38hmy-symbian fellow is Serbian I think11:48
RST38hor Romanian11:48
viqNope ;)11:48
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suihkulokkiconsidering the symbian "success" in america I find it unlikely a site called "my-symbian" being there =)11:49
viqHe's from (and in) Poland11:49
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alteregoGreat, so the Polish are stealing all the N900's :P11:49
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alteregoI wish I'd gone to Amsterdam instead of Iceland now :(11:49
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viqI wish, it would mean I'd have one ;)11:50
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tbfviq: one, two weeks, and it will have reached shops.11:51
javispedroI seriously expect it to ship this week or next11:51
Stskeeps'Nokia does it again! All attendees of #Maemo Developer Days to get an #N900!!'11:51
alteregoThis week is pretty much over.11:51
Stskeepsdamnit, should have gone to copenhagen11:51
javispedroStskeeps:  want more??11:51
alteregoI don't expect it to ship before mid next week.11:52
javispedrodo you plan to build yourself a home using n900 as bricks or what11:52
tbfviq: seems the boat's tour from korea to the states is quicker, than the tour to europe11:52
tbfviq: ...hmm... when looking at the globe it indeed could be.11:52
RST38hStskeeps: Oh11:52
Stskeepsjavispedro: i turn the n900s back into crazy men and use them as slaves around the house11:52
RST38hStskeeps:What do you need the second one for?11:52
javispedrosee above :)11:53
viqtbf: hehe11:53
alteregoI might buy an extra BL-5J battery.11:53
alteregoThen I can starte at the battery until I get the N90011:53
javispedro content!! freedom of expression! open source!!!! open ended!!!!!!!!!11:53
RST38halterego: ain't you going to get closer with that battery?11:53
RST38hI mean, "stare" does not sound involved enough11:54
hrwhmm. someone here used maemo5sdk virtual image?11:54
* javispedro loves the "menacing but cute" n900 look on the maemoproject ad11:55
javispedroi wonder if sliding the keyboard out and in by itself means the n900 is angry.11:55
RST38h"European Keyboard Layout Protest" thread...yummy11:55
* RST38h gets the popcorn11:55
StskeepsRST38h: cursor keys11:55
hrwalterego: I wish if that would be true... 'Great, so the Polish are stealing all the N900's :P'11:56
RST38hSts: but of course.11:56
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RST38hAre there any old forum members left there?11:57
RST38hAll I see is Sep-Nov 200911:57
Stskeepswaiting for the storm to blow over11:57
RST38hWill it ever though? =(11:57
Stskeepssoon enough..11:57
javispedroeternal september11:57
hrwGuySoft: is it normal that maemo5sdk do not display textinputs/checkboxes?11:58
hrwsorry GuySoft11:58
hrwall: is it normal that maemo5sdk do not display textinputs/checkboxes?11:59
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nnod_is there a zenity type command for maemo 5?11:59
javispedrodunno for gtkcheckboxes, but it displays HildonCheckButtons fine.12:00
Stskeepsseems like some people are getting shipping confirmation12:00
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alteregoDamn Polish :P12:01
hrwalterego: shutup please ;D12:01
javispedrothe fansites are all over it12:01
hrwalterego: I am from Poland and waits over week for DDP device12:01
alteregoDhould have ordered it sooner :P12:02
alterego~Shoulod ..12:02
javispedroyou waited just a week? I'm still waiting!12:02
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hrwjavispedro: I am waiting still12:02
Stskeepsheh, if you think n900 is expensive.. we recently got "multimedia tax" in denmark, which means a tax on internet connected devices. one of the shops that companies use to avoid this tax, charges 1999 usd for a iphone 3gs, - and it is even only borrowed :P12:02
javispedrohrw: clearly, something is wrong12:02
hrwjavispedro: that screenshot is from official maemo5sdk virtualimage12:02
Stskeepshrw: yeah, noone recieved it12:02
hrwjavispedro: question is what..12:02
Stskeepswazd o/12:03
wazdheya all :)12:03
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alteregoHas anyone named their N900 yet?12:03
CoreFusion-hehe, just kidding :P12:04
alteregoI mean crap, what is wrong with my typing today.12:04
PaulFertserRST38h: yep. But i guess i'd need more money if i had children, not if i had a wife.12:04
PaulFertserRST38h: in fact i have 2 jobs. I work part-time as an embedded developer and part-time as a university tutor.12:06
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RST38hPaul: Still, the question remains: are you creating anything new?12:09
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RST38hPaul: Let us say, a guy designing engine blades for the RRJ will see that plane flying and he can point and say: I designed part of that.12:10
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philn-tpinside sbox, trying to connect to my host pulseaudio i get  pulsesink0: Failed to connect: Connection terminated12:11
LynoureRST38h: "new" is a relative term.12:11
RST38hPaul: Can you do something similar?12:11
RST38hLynoure: Well, something that a lot of other people will use12:11
philn-tpi configured host to run PA in daemon mode and copied the pulse cookie in sbox12:11
RST38hSomethignn that did not exist before12:11
LynoureRST38h: those two things are very separate12:12
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RST38hLyonoure: Let us apply an OR here12:12
LynoureOne can create something new that only a small set of people have use for. And many things a lot of people will use are just reinvention and glue.12:12
aquatixand something like that is quite rare12:12
aquatixLynoure: indeed12:13
zaheerm-lpphiln-tp, sounds bad :)12:13
RST38heither case12:13
philn-tpzaheerm-lp: hahaha :)12:13
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zaheerm-lpphiln-tp, you using fremantle, diablo or other target in sbox?12:13
zaheerm-lpphiln-tp, x86 or armel emu in sbox?12:14
philn-tpzaheerm-lp: fremantle, i think12:14
PaulFertserRST38h: nope, i do not create anything really new, just gluing things together like Lynoure says. But i do not think it's important either, to me it's more important to help people, read books, listen to the music etc. Not everyone was born to be a great scientist or an inventor and that's ok.12:15
Tigge>/win 212:15
* Lynoure is currently working on something a lot of people will use. Not new, and plenty of glue. And soon something more new that a tiny group of people will use.12:16
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* javispedro is not working on creating anything12:16
zaheerm-lpphiln-tp, try stracing i think...12:16
philn-tpzaheerm-lp: the PA port mentionned there seems wrong .. or my PA is not correctly listening on tcp12:16
RST38hPaul: Among people working on something like an RRJ or a new Medfield chip or an N900, there is just a few of great inventors12:17
Lynoure(non-surprisingly the latter is for Maemo5 :) )12:17
RST38hPaul:  Yet, they can all point to something in the real world and say "I have helped to build that"12:17
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LynoureI can just point at software and say that... nothing in real world.12:18
RST38hPaul: Returning to the initial topic, there are very few companies in Russia whose employees can say something like that12:18
zaheerm-lpphiln-tp, so yah in sbox i have same problem12:18
RST38hPaul: And most of them are offices of foreign corporations, i.e. "evil"12:18
zaheerm-lpphiln-tp, i have none running inside my sbox, so autoaudiosink will use alsasink which will use the host's pulse's alsa emulation :)12:19
RST38hPaul: And yes, THAT is one of the causes of the brain drain, in addition to lower salaries and generally lower living standards when compared to the West12:19
philn-tpzaheerm-lp: yes but i need to use pulsesink :/12:19
* javispedro wonders if I just traveled to the nineties12:20
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zaheerm-lpphiln-tp, you need to?12:20
philn-tpzaheerm-lp: yes... to debug something12:20
javispedrooh, the N900 has an AMOLED screen! </tmo>12:21
PaulFertserRST38h: if i make a patch that hits mainline and 10k of FR owners use it, that'll be good. I can show it to somebody and boast. But even if i helped a single person with enjoying his device more, that's already an achivement. I think being a good human is more important than being involved in developing something widely deployed.12:21
RST38hPaul: Maybe. But what is the probability of you seeing another guy with a Freerunner on the subway, let us say?12:22
alteregoI'm more interested in making the device do what I want it to do, if people find that useful, then great.12:22
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alteregoIf someone comes up with an idea, something they want it to do and are not capable of doing it, then that's a good place to start too.12:22
epa_anyone here syncing N900 with calendar on their Linux machine?12:22
epa_with any application conbination whatsoever12:23
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javispedrodoes it sync with anything other than windows pc suite?12:23
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alteregoDoes the Mail for Exchange stuff not sync? :)12:23
andre__there are some bugs.12:24
tigertjavispedro: google has Exchange service12:24
tigertit worked fine for google calendar for me12:24
andre__alterego, depends with what you want to sync.12:24
tigertwhat sucks is that it can contain just one sync account at a time it appears12:25
javispedroI guess the sync stuff is mostly open, with the calendar backend being e-d-s?12:25
tigertthus I cannot use it for google and work stuff at the same time12:25
lbt_epa_: keep me in the loop12:25
alteregoN900<->Exchange<->Evolution ^.^12:25
lbt_tried syncvolution12:25
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javispedroalterego: sounds awful and datalossy :P12:25
lbt_and obex12:25
lbt_and gnokii12:26
alteregoI'd personally, probably just rsync the database.12:26
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javispedrobah. I'd like to write an evo sync plugin12:26
lbt_javispedro: *nod*12:26
javispedronoithing that goes through exchange.12:26
PaulFertserRST38h: (probability) it depends. And it doesn't matter actually, imho.12:26
lbt_can we work this into Hermes?12:27
philn-tpzaheerm-lp: maybe my host PA is not compatible with sbox pulsesink :/12:27
CoreFusion-omg... someone asked at t.m.o if n900 will support silverlight...12:27
javispedrohermes? hermes is contacts.12:27
RST38hPaul: But then, you have no idea if people actually use what you have created12:27
epa_I can't use outlook with N900 because device does not have encrypted storage for certificates.12:27
viqSpeaking of syncing, there is free edition of zimbra that claims mobile device sync, I wonder if that would work for nokia12:27
RST38hPaul: So, having more people use your stuff, and having more different people use it, actually helps feeling the feedback12:27
javispedroI guess it's just a matter of writing a sync daemon on n900 using C++ calendar api,12:28
Stskeepsepa_: and passphrase on private key isn't good enough?12:28
javispedrothen a opensync plugin12:28
epa_So I'd have to sync calendar from my linux phone.12:28
javispedroet voilà!12:28
epa_Stskeeps: not for our policy on mobile devices.12:28
Stskeepshave to wait for m6 then12:28
GeneralAntillesCoreFusion-, actually, Microsoft announced something along those lines at some point.12:29
epa_Stskeeps: or m7 m8 .... *sigh*12:29
ccookeGood Morning12:29
viqOh, yeah, speaking of - I wonder if it will be possible to get full disk encryption on n90012:30
viqdm-crypt or the like12:30
PaulFertserRST38h: lots of people gave feedback about poor GPS performance to Nokia. Not that it changed anything. No engineer that actually designed the gps part was involved. No software author was involved. Nobody cared. Read the ticket, it's really that awful. Nokia employees claiming "we checked our code, it's bug free; if you have any questions ask nokia customer care" and proposing to use agps instead.12:30
PaulFertser(talking about n810 here)12:30
Stskeepsthat said, n810 with agps isn't half bad.12:31
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RST38hPaul: That is mainly because the TI5300 chip is AGPS, not GPS and it does not work well without the A-12:31
PaulFertserStskeeps: sure, provided you have the internet access there12:31
javispedroconsidering that the n900 without agps sucks too, I'd even say it's a hw bug.12:31
RST38hPaul: Please note that these evil Nokia employees eventually provided a solution inDiablo12:31
PaulFertserRST38h: i'm not sure that's true, it should work without A as well.12:31
GeneralAntillesChrist, another one, really?12:31
CoreFusion-GeneralAntilles: That is very interesting12:31
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PaulFertserRST38h: a solution == beta AGPS binary daemon?12:31
RST38hPaul: Which you can install from Extras and GPS starts working way better12:32
GeneralAntillesJaffa, was checking if anybody else had the volume rocker working with qwerty12's FBReader.12:32
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GeneralAntillesJaffa, but he provided a libzlib later that made it work.12:32
PaulFertserRST38h: provided you have the internet access at the moment you need the fix. Not exactly common when you're hiking e.g.12:32
RST38hPaul: Why do you think it should work well without the A-?12:32
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ccookeGeneralAntilles: ... a libzlib that makes the volume rocker work?!12:32
RST38hPaul: That is why it is A-12:32
RST38hPaul: But an extra BT GPS receiver will only cost you $50-$6012:33
Flandryuh, because it's a computer12:33
RST38hI have got one, just in case, even before I got N81012:33
javispedroRST38h: no, external BT GPS is closed!12:33
viqRST38h: and lots of battery life12:33
GeneralAntillesEgads, Engadget turned the whole first page into a header.12:33
RST38hjavis: you can't even imagine...12:33
PaulFertserRST38h: i feel false reasoning here. A means it can get ephemeris (and almanac) from the SoC, just that. It doesn't mean it should have poor sensitivity or something.12:33
RST38hviq: ~12 hours non stop12:34
lardmanjavispedro: on Fremantle?12:34
Flandryno respectable computer needs to call home to do arithmetic :P12:34
ccookeGeneralAntilles: wonderful. My ebook reader's screen died last night, so I had to install fbreader on the n900 this morning :-)12:34
RST38hjavis: no power button, no reset, batteries can't be removed12:34
javispedrolardman: talking about the actual receiver ;)12:34
lardmanah ok12:34
SpeedEvilRST38h: no - there are many AGPSs that work just fine when they have no net connection.12:34
RST38hPaul: False reasoning is saying that it "should" work wqithout A- and not backing this up12:34
fubshola, anyone has ever tried to make puredata anywhere running on the n900? having probs with pulseaudio :(12:34
SpeedEvilRST38h: it's not impossible that the GPS device isn't being used optimally.12:34
SpeedEvilRST38h: In that most AGPSs - and all GPS chipsets with AGPS that I've ever seen - can do fixes on their own.12:35
SpeedEvilall hardware GPS chipsets12:35
PaulFertserRST38h: but nokia employees claim their code is literally "bug free". Can that be considered honest?12:35
SpeedEvilThey just take longer.12:35
javispedroand that's the issue here.12:35
javispedrothat without AGPS the damn thing  takes minutes to get a fix.12:35
lardmanPaulFertser: the code probably comes from Ti for the chipset12:35
viqThey can do fix without assist, it just takes couple minutes to half an hour. But if you do try to get a fix not long after not too far from there it's very fast if the data is saved12:36
PaulFertserlardman: so nokia guys can't claim it's bugfree.12:36
PaulFertserlardman: yet they do12:36
lardmantrue, who did?12:36
PaulFertserlardman: let me find the evidence, moment.12:36
SpeedEvillardman: however - the reported fact that there is no daemon for a software GPS, and the device outputs NMEA would indicate that it's not really a driver issue, more a usage issue.12:36
SpeedEvillardman: many AGPSs if you screw up the AGPS data won't actually lock.12:37
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* SpeedEvil checks again for shipping notification.12:38
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javispedroI think it's going to ship real soon now.12:39
zaheerm-lpphiln-tp, you can always try git gst...but i very much doubt that12:39
RST38hPaul: All Nokia employees claim is that they have done all they could12:39
philn-tpzaheerm-lp: i can't do that either :(12:39
RST38hPaul: Yes, ti5300 *can* get a lock in non-assisted mode. It takes 3-10 minutes.12:40
PaulFertserlardman: - The Location team has gone through these issues and doesn't think that12:40
PaulFertserlong timings are caused by bugs in gpsd or the closed components12:40
PaulFertserdeveloped by Nokia.12:40
povbotBug 2878: Very poor satellite acquisition with internal GPS12:40
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Flandryoh yeah12:41
PaulFertserRST38h: is it a documented behaviour?12:41
Flandryreading that made me want to bang my head on the wall12:41
PaulFertserlardman: so if you read the ticket in question you'll see that several _very_ experienced guys asked nokia about details to verify that software bugs do not contribute to it. Nokia ignored the specific questions and proposed agps as well.12:42
RST38hIn assisted mode, it takes 40 seconds to 2 minutes12:42
RST38hPaul: Sorry but how do you know poor acquisition time is caused by gpsd bugs?12:42
PaulFertserFlandry: yeah, i had a similar senstation after reading all the posts there. It was highly disappointing.12:42
javispedrowell, Nokia doesn't employ idiots of that's what you think. I can believe they reviewed the code.12:42
PaulFertserRST38h: how do you know it's not?12:42
RST38hPaul: I do not know either way12:42
PaulFertserjavispedro: i can't believe they claimed it's bug free.12:42
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RST38hBut I have not made any statements about it12:42
RST38hYou did. So how do you know?12:43
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javispedroPaulFertser: they claimed they reviewed the code and didn't find issues. I think that's a pretty sane thing to say.12:43
PaulFertserRST38h: i'm not making statements that their code is buggy. I just say that they were asked to provide details and refused claiming there's no bugs in there.12:43
PaulFertserjavispedro: not when you're asked a specific question like the one posed on the tracker. In fact this particular ticket says a lot about how well nokia "cares" about the customer.12:44
SpeedEvilSimilar long-lock issues without AGPS have been caused on other GPSs by getting the assist data stored slightly wrong.12:44
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javispedrothe assist data is stored fine. the gps gets a lock quickly if you shut it down then power it on after a 5 minute wait12:44
RST38hPaul: They refused because the code is closed12:44
javispedrothe issue is when you try to get a lock when more than three or so days have passed since latest lock12:45
RST38hPaul: Revealing  this code would lead to violation of their NDA and their eventual dismissal12:45
javispedroPaulFertser: so. a bug report is opened about poor performance. Nokia reviews the gpsdriver code and says they do not thing it is a bug there, and believe it's a hw issue. You complain Nokia doesn't care about customers.12:46
RST38hYou really want some poor Nokia sod dismissed just so that you could see gpsd sources?12:46
PaulFertserRST38h: they could reveal the details about how that code works. They could have added debug printfs. They could do a lot without violating NDA. But they ignored the numerous requests to add some debugging. How can you justify that?12:46
RST38hAnd they have actually done some of that12:46
PaulFertserjavispedro: exactly. Why didn't they add some debugging info so everyone can see that's really a HW issue?12:46
RST38hBut they do not HAVE to do it.12:46
PaulFertserRST38h: that's what an honest dev supposed to do.12:47
RST38hThis is not their job to reveal details to you. They have signed their NDAs.12:47
RST38hPaul: Not really. Honest developer is supposed ot do his job well12:47
RST38hTheir job is software development not customer relations12:47
javispedroPaulFertser: probably because TI wants to hide how much work is done on software and a useful debug dump would reveal that.12:48
RST38hNow, if you would like ot claim they made some mistakes in their code, you can12:48
PaulFertserjavispedro: in fact they never confirmed that's a hardware issue!12:48
RST38hBut you cannot require them to disclose stuff to you12:48
RST38hjavis: More likely, they would like to hide their processing algorithms12:48
PaulFertserRST38h: how can one diagnose the problem without any debugging information? It's just impossible. And in the end they neither confirmed nor denied that's a hardware issue.12:49
RST38hjavis: Do not want to create advantage for someone else12:49
RST38hPaul: Have you been asked to diagnose this problem?12:49
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lardmansorry, phone call12:50
PaulFertserRST38h: they said they can't reproduce the problem. So reviewing the code might be not enough. You know that plenty of bugs pass the review and only after being exposed to some particular conditions, the bug surfaces.12:50
PaulFertserRST38h: they never said they reproduced the issue.12:50
PaulFertserSo i claim that without reproducing their review worth nothing.12:50
PaulFertserI think that's a reasonable thing to claim.12:50
javispedroPaulFertser: "The Location team has gone through these issues..."12:51
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lardmanPaulFertser: ok, so I was part of that bug, and that doesn't rule out the possibility that Ti provided a binary blob or perhaps source to perform the calcs12:51
lardmananyway, is nitpicking, the performance is crap12:52
Stskeepsthe most likely issue i've seen is that timezones weren't set up right12:52
PaulFertserjavispedro: i guess Quim Gil could have used "has gone" meaning they evaluated, not reproduced.12:52
SpeedEvilAs to IP - and blobs - someone reported that GPS does not have a daemon when active that uses several percent of CPU12:52
CoreFusion-what performance are you guys taling about, gps+12:52
Stskeepswhich meant the time on device was not right and hence gpsdriver got confused12:52
SpeedEvilWhich would imply there is no significant binary blob on the host side.12:52
RST38hCore: N810 GPS12:53
lardmanhmm, I think we concluded that it probably does though from a disassembly of the code12:53
SpeedEvilplease ignore most of what I've said - I thought it was n900 gps12:53
RST38hCore: PaulFertser is claiming that evil Nokia is hiding gpsd bugs from us12:53
CoreFusion-RST38h: Oh, well that surely is poor12:53
SpeedEvil(that was being discussed)12:53
RST38hBy not making the code open source12:53
lardmanRST38h: not gpsd, gpsdriver12:53
PaulFertserlardman: nobody from nokia admitted that anyway. If it was the case, and nokia honestly told the customers that they have no idea what to do with TI's binary blob, i'd say: good, i see nokia is honest with their customers.12:53
RST38hgpsdriver, ok12:53
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lardmanPaulFertser: well the other explanation is that the aerial is poorly positioned12:54
javispedroi do not think TI gave them a binary blob, but rather source code.12:54
PaulFertserlardman: what i care here is honesty, not performance...12:54
lardmanI don;t know, we should just reverse engineer gpsdriver and then we can look at the raw data12:54
SpeedEviljavispedro: Though not a very similar case, openmoko got handed a binary blob and no source. (but they were only oedering several thousand)12:55
PaulFertserI claim that nokia is dishonest and the way this bug was dealt with confirms that.12:55
Stskeepsheh, dishonesty exists in oss too12:55
PaulFertserSpeedEvil: if you're talking about calypso, that's partially wrong.12:55
lardmanlife's not black and white12:55
SpeedEvilPaulFertser: no - gta01 - hammerhead - gllin12:55
PaulFertserSpeedEvil: OM has part of calypso source and a way to compile it along with blobs.12:55
CoreFusion-PaulFertser: You really expect complete openness from a company that big?12:55
PaulFertserSpeedEvil: ah, ok.12:55
javispedroSpeedEvil: the are certain references in the changelog that they were able to tune certain parameters. I don't know if that means fully source drop but...12:55
javispedros/the are/there are12:55
PaulFertserCoreFusion-: not complete openness. But just being honest on bugtracker.12:56
lardmanjavispedro: yeah accuracy/speed trade-offs iirc12:56
lardmanand 2D vs 3D stuff12:56
StskeepsPaulFertser: big step up they even have one though12:56
SpeedEvillardman: and lock times vs initial lock accuracy12:56
lardmanSpeedEvil: I'm guessing you were right originally and the decoding is done on the arm12:57
javispedroat least on N810.12:57
lardmanI've not looked on the N90012:57
PaulFertserStskeeps: having a bugtracker is a big step? Sounds a bit like a joke. ;)12:57
javispedrowe found Pi as single precision fp constants, etc.12:57
javispedroall stored on the gpsdriver binary12:57
SpeedEvillardman: Unless I don't get a n900, I'm unlikely to get a 81012:58
SpeedEvil(and only then if I can find one cheap)12:58
CoreFusion-I can sell you one :P12:58
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Stskeepsjavispedro: got some specifics on problematic stuff you've found?12:58
SayHisay hi12:58
SpeedEvilCoreFusion-: I want to see if I get rejected for a n900. (voucher stacked - so paid ~50%)12:59
javispedroStskeeps: what you mean?12:59
Stskeepsjavispedro: well, non-fixed stuff in gpsdriver12:59
javispedroStskeeps: i'm not the one complaining :)12:59
alteregoDid anyone else get the impression that they're going to do a discount programme for the next maemo device?12:59
Stskeepsjavispedro: and that's why i'm asking you about constructive information :)12:59
javispedroeven though my gripe with it is long cold fix times12:59
SpeedEvillardman: the most convincing thing to me is the percentage of CPU is more or less identical to that used on the GTA01 openmoko - which had a (largely) software GPS.13:00
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alteregoIs the source available for the auto-builder?13:03
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javispedrothe auto-builder is basically sbox + sdk + sbdmock13:08
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alteregoHas no one ported gtkglext?13:10
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wazdjeez! Is there any option to bring back old Engadget style?13:14
pyhimyswazd: use lynx13:15
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wazdit's so godawful13:16
wazdengadget, not lynx :D13:16
RST38hwazd: Google reader saves the day13:18
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fubsgod damn it... dac blocked13:23
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vesacan i uninstall stuff with dpkg using wildcards?13:26
vesaie. something like dpkg -r blaa*13:26
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adeusof more exactly the shell will expand that *13:27
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adeusdpkg will see a list of the items13:27
lardmanSpeedEvil: ok13:28
vesahmm, it just says 'dkpg: you must specify packages by their own names, not by quoting the names of the files they come in'13:28
lardmanStskeeps: re GPS sw, it's more wondering if they did as good as job as possible on it13:28
vesahmm, changed dir to where there are no debs with that start (filenames) and now it says 'warning: ignoring request to remove blaa* which isn't installed.13:29
lardmanand that does also lead onto opening the code up so we could feed it our own ephemerides13:29
adeusdoh I just read isntall13:29
vesaeven tho listing blaa* gives a long list13:29
vesaah oh =)13:29
Stskeepslardman: luke-jr keeps on suggesting abstracting away the TI code13:30
adeusit should still work13:30
adeusyou need to quote it13:30
lardmanStskeeps: well re-writing yeah would open it, but probably a bit of an involved job - what does SpeedEvil think, it's his field?13:30
adeusdpkg -r ä13:30
adeusdpkg -r '*foo*'13:31
vesanope, doesn't work =/13:31
pyhimysdpkg -r `dpkg -l | grep foo`13:32
adeus..and some cutting to that ;13:33
adeusgoddamn my keyboard lags13:33
vesapyhimys: thank you kind sir. that did it =)13:34
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alteregoCrap, I left my ext HDD with all my maemo stuff at home so I can't upload these new packages to extras-devel :(13:40
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bobbydthe rollout of the n900 is a little bit of a farce now :)13:50
bobbydwhat with the london flagship store tweeting that it was selling them today, then deleting it...13:51
bobbydI mean, the delays were annoying, but why would you announce you were selling something unless you had it in store. I suspect something else is going on13:52
bobbydbut I can't work out what that might me13:52
lardmanGAN900: you about?13:52
alteregoThink I might setup some kind of local repository in my scratchbox installation for all this junk.13:52
Stskeepsbobbyd: yes, plenty of discussions about that on talk.maemo.org13:52
bobbydanyway, I got squeezeplay to work un der the13:53
bobbydbut I think the license means you can't distribute it13:53
bobbydso I suppose the only option would be to downlod the source and compile on each n90013:54
viqOr make "highly unofficial" repo ;)13:54
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kik2k0Is it possible to swith between 3G and WLAN without loosing your connection?13:56
alteregokik2k0: no, not realy.13:56
viqkik2k0: define "connection"13:56
alteregoI was contemplating some kind of screeen for network connections.13:56
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kik2k0viq: like a SSH-session13:56
viqthen no13:56
kik2k0alterego: ok13:56
kik2k0ok, thanks13:57
alteregoI was thinking of implementing a local proxy, that uses autossh to proxy connections to a remote host and maintain state.13:57
CoreFusion-in theory if were to use a loopback address and switch the network connection extremly fast13:57
viqkik2k0: if you want more technical details - your IP would change, so TCP connection would break.13:57
alteregoSo you can move between internet connections and always maintain your open sockets.13:57
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kik2k0viq: yeah, didnt think about that13:58
alteregoIf it's not been built, I think I'll do that, kind of like screen but for network connections.13:59
viqalterego: if you used something like openvpn, maybe that could work13:59
kik2k0would be really nice if it could move between 3G and WLAN like that13:59
alteregoYeah, didn't think about VPN14:00
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viqAnd openvpn has the advantage of not encapsulating tcp in tcp14:00
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alteregoI think I might still develop my SSH SOCKS5 implementation,14:01
alteregoCouple of ruby scripts. no problem :)14:02
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JaffaGeneralAntilles: Ah, rioght14:03
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SpeedEvillardman: rewriting from scratch given full specs is a not-too-horrible job.14:05
SpeedEvillardman: reverse engineering those specs is going to be nasty.14:05
lardmanSpeedEvil: it looked like most of the code was contained in a few functions, which is far nicer than other things I've looked at14:06
lardmanmake it easier to work out how it works anyway14:07
lardmanbut tbh I have better things to do with my time atm14:07
SpeedEvillardman: yeah - the hard parts aren't really the position determination bit.14:07
SpeedEvillardman: Or even the orbital calcs.14:07
SpeedEvillardman: those are all nicely documented and stuff, and not too bad to implement.14:07
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lardmanwell I guess the input and output shouldn't be too bad though14:08
SpeedEvillardman: the nasty part is working out how the radio hardware is driven, what the parameters for it are, and what format the signals come back in14:08
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lardmaneasy enough to find where, just not what14:08
SpeedEvillardman: the recieving part is where the complexity arises - it can be really quite complex to setup the reciever to pick up each satellite.14:09
SpeedEvilEspecially if you want good lock performance.14:09
SpeedEvilTo make an analogy - FM radio is more-or-less a keyboard just entering values. You open it, turn it to the right frequency, and you get data. GPS signal acquisition is more like image processing, picking faeces out of a crowd.14:11
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timeless_mbpGeneralAntilles: you were asking about articles...14:29
timeless_mbp (it doesn't belong on that server, but viper isn't serving atm)14:29
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mzztimeless_mbp: cute14:32
timeless_mbpmzz: thanks14:32
timeless_mbpit needs art14:32
timeless_mbpthe article is old (see comment at top of file for original content)14:32
mzzspeaking of art, I have a .ico file to decipher14:32
timeless_mbpyou do indeed!14:32
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timeless_mbpoom-killer image:
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timeless_mbpmzz: hey, got a picture of the doom for process killing?14:46
* timeless_mbp thinks it's -- psDoom14:46
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timeless_mbpok. art added14:50
timeless_mbpi just need to find out when viper will come back up14:50
timeless_mbpi still have some monkeys which need art iirc14:50
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mzztimeless_mbp: your .ico bug is which is really a two-parter: the ico loader should not throw away the entire ico if it chokes on one of the images in it, and it should actually support png images.14:57
povbotBug 581838: was not found.14:57
mzzI'll see if I can cook up a patch14:57
timeless_mbpfeel free to attach our icon14:57
timeless_mbpit's hardly private with a couple hundred people having copies :)14:58
timeless_mbpand thanks14:58
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mzzno prob, I don't mind this kind of prodding, although I don't know if the gdk-pixbuf patch will be fun14:59
mzzI actually have pure python ico and png file format parsers around for no particularly good reason14:59
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iDialektN900 going to get Global portrait or is that for maemo 6?15:04
timeless_mbpiDialekt: 'global' doesn't make sense for any project15:05
timeless_mbpeach app needs to be designed or augmented to support portrait15:05
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timeless_mbpthe browser should get portrait in the first service release15:06
timeless_mbpand it's likely that a number of other major apps will get portrait mode15:06
RST38h"Many [of the test subjects] lived through the paralyze-unparalyze cycle", report the boffins.15:06
timeless_mbphowever, even though it'd be nice to have a portrait calculator, i wouldn't expect to see it15:06
auenfwouldnt be surprised that maemo 5 doesnt get portrait support for the desktop(s)15:06
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iDialektWhat about certain points of the os itself?15:06
timeless_mbpthe os?15:06
timeless_mbpyou mean X11?15:06
timeless_mbpor dbus?15:06
timeless_mbpor gconf?15:06
timeless_mbpor ... ?15:06
timeless_mbpwhat's an OS?15:06
* iDialekt gets shut down15:07
timeless_mbpi haven't heard of plans to make the switcher rotate15:07
timeless_mbpit's probably doable, and i could be out of the loop15:07
timeless_mbpaSIMULAter would probably know but probably couldn't speak to it unless it was already public knowledge somewhere15:07
timeless_mbpaSIMULAter: speaking of which, visit sp3000 and ask his roommate to trade your device for an English one15:08
iDialektWho's grabbing an n900 anyway!15:08
timeless_mbpswitcher is probably officially "Dashboard"15:08
iDialektAnyone got one? In the USA?15:08
timeless_mbp(like that helps any)15:08
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RST38hiDialekt: nobody has an N900 here. nothing to see.15:09
RST38hbe on your way now.15:09
iDialektRST38h: hush15:10
iDialektauenf: How are you by the way?15:10
auenfnot bad, you?15:10
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mzzgrr, stupid ancient nonextendable file formats that get extended anyway15:11
RST38hSteve Litchfield meets Nokia Ovi15:11
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iDialektPretty good. Seeing as im trying to return to nokia in some shape15:11
RST38hDoes not like it, says the store has too many applications15:12
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ShapeshifterI don't agree with the author of that article.15:16
Shapeshifterchoice is good. If you can't decide that's your problem >.>15:16
auenfhe wants a psion15:16
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RST38hOf course he does15:17
Shapeshifterwho does15:17
RST38hShapeshifter: The problem is not with the choice, it is with the appstore model15:17
RST38hShapeshifter: if you concentrate so much stuff at one spot, it naturally becomes difficult to present to customers and even to search15:18
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ShapeshifterRST38h: possibly. But he suggests radical QA to prevent most app of being released15:18
RST38hIf you just let people write their own stuff and sell it in .sis or .deb form through their web sites, then it is all well spread with google taking care of indexing15:18
timeless_mbpmzz: blah15:19
timeless_mbpico was a container format15:19
RST38hShapeshifter: Which means that he is either trying to look iconoclastic to his reader or he is naturally stupid15:19
timeless_mbpalways has been15:19
timeless_mbpsurely it isn't hard to deal w/15:19
auenfok, i'll create a .sis or .deb that formats all your drives and advertise it as flash support for the iphone15:19
CShadowRunWhat's the deal with maemo and python? I heard that some of it is in python?15:20
RST38hauenf: It is ok. A necessary risk.15:20
auenfnot for the general user15:20
Shapeshifterauenf: "the internet" would quickly find out that your app is BS and people wouldn't install it anymore15:20
RST38hAnd I will not install your .sis file until I read about it and get it from a trusted source (of which can be many)15:20
Shapeshifterit would be all over facebook, your favourite forums and whatever15:20
mzztimeless_mbp: not that bad. The icky bit is that the contained thing doesn't have any magic bytes, so you have to rely on sanity checks (against the header from the container format) to detect unhandled contained icons (which is probably why gdk-pixbuf is failing: you can't really tell if it's a corrupt ico or an unhandled one)15:21
RST38hauenf: And you will end up up to your eyes in fecal matter15:21
RST38hNothing personal, just the way Internet works15:21
timeless_mbpCShadowRun: you can write maemo apps in python15:21
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Shapeshifterauenf: it's been like that for desktop apps for ages.15:22
auenfthats an extreme example, but if you let people host apps anywhere, there is not quality control, a single app could seriously affect the whole device15:22
timeless_mbpauenf: as long as i can call 911 :)15:23
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ShapeshifterRST38h: though I am _clearly_ against a page-by-page single-distribution system. It's the main reason I hate windows - it lacks any kind of package management, and it's what I love about linux (well, most distros). Package management is important, automatic global updates, not per-app notifiers etc.15:23
* auenf creates an app that disables 911 on timeless's phone15:23
auenfalso will disable 112 :P15:23
ShapeshifterA repo systems has some drawbacks but it far outweights single-package installation systems imho.15:24
auenfrestricting only to app stores is one extreme15:25
auenfs/only to app stores/only to one app store/15:25
infobotauenf meant: restricting only to one app store is one extreme15:25
auenfletting installs from anywhere is the other extreme15:26
auenffor a mobile device, more towards the former is better for the general public15:26
Shapeshifterit's okay I think. But there could be for example a community-QA. With a couple of hundret "Trusted users" - like in maemos case for example some of the more popular devs, and additionaly a rating system where a package gets blocked once it receives 5 1-star ratings15:27
auenfmore towards the latter is desired by the 'geeks'15:27
Shapeshifterthe community, "the internet", knows best which apps are good and which are bad.15:27
ShapeshifterQA employees could never cope with the amount of apps that could be developed.15:27
auenfneed more QA employees then15:28
Shapeshifterno, impossible, too expensive15:28
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auenfiirc, everyone in "the community" can be QA for extras15:28
auenfthe current QAers are limited cause of limited number of devices out in the wild15:29
* RST38h always facepalms at people who honestly think they can somehow "QA" every single app on the planet, not to mention collect them all behind a simple 320x240 pixel interface15:30
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RST38hPossibilities for disaster boggle the mind... Starting with the current Fremantle Extras for example15:30
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auenfhmm, fark its still hot here15:33
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konttoriNice, t3 review is out:  "The N900 eschews Symbian for the open-source Maemo 5 OS and despite a few gripes; it’s the best handset Nokia has produced in a long time."15:52
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CoreFusion-it that on the sales-device?15:53
konttoriI would assume so. It's either with the same firmware as the 300 dev devices had, or with the latest15:54
CoreFusion-I like how it starts :D15:54
konttorithere are not so many big differences between those two versions15:54
CoreFusion-The Finns leap back into our affections15:54
viq"Although after 24-hours of moderate calling and texting, WiFi continually on, some browsing and photography, we needed to recharge. Cane the web and you’ll need to carry a charger around with you."15:55
LynoureCoreFusion-: :)15:55
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Lynoureviq: try same with mobile data, and the time is whole lot shorter.15:56
viqLynoure: yeah, just quoting that article15:56
Lynoureviq: yup, understood that, just wanted to share my experiences :)15:57
RST38hkonttori: Compared to quite a few S60 phones, N900 is rock stable even in its current state15:57
viqLynoure: how much battery life do you see on cel network? Or you don't see any yet? ;)15:57
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LynoureI still need to try if it drops my bt headset after 15min even with the newest fw15:58
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Lynoureviq: I try not to keep that on much, because it drains fast. So, never timed it.15:58
* viq nods15:59
LynoureI end up charging mine pretty much nightly.15:59
viqNightly is still nice ;)15:59
LynoureToo fond of walking xmpping =)15:59
SpeedEvil Estimated delivery date: week commencing 23rd November.15:59
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CoreFusion-This could be because we had an early sample16:00
CoreFusion-so not the final unit16:00
Stskeepsw00t_: ^16:01
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andre__I'm looking for a libSDL app that goes fullscreen. Any hints? SO far found only Games that don't go fullscreen anymore because of the problems16:01
* w00t_ looks?16:01
w00t_ah, yes, i got told the 23rd a few days ago16:01
w00t_i'm still very sceptical16:01
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w00t_that's about the 4th date I've had from them so16:02
SpeedEvilw00t_: I _think_ it's the first time the nokia store has actually mentioned a numeric date - rather than 'mid november'16:02
SpeedEvilor whatever16:02
konttoriRST38h: yeah, it's surprisingly good even as a phone16:02
w00t_SpeedEvil: on the site, yes, on the phone, no16:02
CoreFusion-Nokia here in Finland starts delivering pre-orders this friday16:02
w00t_(and via mail)16:02
viqAround here 23rd is also expected date16:02
w00t_but whatever16:02
w00t_if it doesn't come next week, I'll probably cancel16:03
w00t_I've done enough waiting16:03
CoreFusion-and aims to have delivered them during next week, after that other suppliers will follow16:03
w00t_I need a phone that doesn't suck before I go away16:03
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CoreFusion-w00t_: lol16:03
CoreFusion-don't be so childish16:03
w00t_CoreFusion-: i'm not, that's the way it is16:03
w00t_i'm going from the country soon, and i've been dealing with a broken phone for months now16:04
w00t_it's quite simple really, a product might be perfect for what i need, but if it's always available "next week", then it's no good to me16:05
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SpeedEvilJam yesterday, jam tomorrow, but never jam today.16:05
CoreFusion-i just don't get this "always next week"16:05
CoreFusion-how many times has Nokia delayed this product?16:05
w00t_CoreFusion-: according to 0800 331 6021?16:06
w00t_about 4-5 times now16:06
CoreFusion-anything else than official dates announced by Nokia doesn't mean a thing16:06
Lynourew00t_: what will you get after next week?16:06
w00t_they are nokia16:06
CoreFusion-and that's once or twice16:06
w00t_that's the phone line for
CoreFusion-no, phone support is not official dates16:07
w00t_now, if they can't get their story straight, that's a whole other problem16:07
w00t_I really couldn't care less16:07
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zaheerm-lpa friend of mine called the flagship store who had tweeted about today being when they start selling instore, he was told next thursday or friday16:07
w00t_the 23rd is not "official" for the UK either16:07
w00t_there is no press release16:07
w00t_so why is that worth anything more than what I was told on the phone?16:07
viqw00t_: I would expect press release on 23rd16:08
w00t_viq: I'm hoping for one16:08
zaheerm-lpthe release dates have been a farce16:08
CoreFusion-no it hasn't16:08
w00t_I think a lot of people are assuming I'm complaining for the sake of complaining16:08
w00t_don't get me wrong, I'm not16:08
w00t_I'm not really even complaining16:08
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w00t_at this stage I don't care :-)16:08
alteregoIf they had, like, a set date, then I'm sure they'd have queues of people.16:08
alteregoBut this moving target date is ridiculous.16:08
teroHi! Can anyone tell me how to adjust the row height of gtk.TreeView inside hildon.PannableArea()? If I add the treeview to normal gtk.ScrolledWindow, the row height is ok.16:09
w00t_if it comes next week, they get my money, if it doesn't come, I might look into the HD216:09
CoreFusion-well that's your loss16:09
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KhertanHello !!!16:09
alteregoIf you can't wait a few weeks, a month, how ever long. IT just show's you're impatient.16:10
zaheerm-lpalterego, exactly...currently they piss off people who have preordered or are waiting to go to the shops and buy which is pretty sad because it is the best nokia phone for a long time16:10
alteregoSure, we'd all /like/ to have it now.16:10
w00t_alterego: as I said, *I'm leaving the country*16:10
alteregoOh, right, I was on lunch, missed that ;)16:10
w00t_if I'm not here to sign for it, it's shipped back to nokia in 48 hours, and I don't get refunded my shipping16:10
alteregoShould have gone for the free shipping ;)16:11
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w00t_haha, yes16:11
alteregoTo be honest, I don't care, because I don't get paid until next Friday anyway.16:11
w00t_if you exclude the fact that it's not out yet, express shipping ~1.5-2 months after I ordered is a bit amusing16:12
alteregoThe problem I'm going to be faced with, is them running out of stock, which I can see happening.16:12
alteregoThat is amusing, because what's 2 extra days :P16:12
zaheerm-lpalterego, one hopes they are using this delay to ramp up stock levels :)16:12
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alteregoMaybe they're using this delay to count the number of complaints so they know how many to make ;)16:13
w00t_zaheerm-lp: that's a fallacy16:13
CoreFusion-But claims that the release has been a farce are ridiculous16:13
alteregoI heard they didn't make much money the last fy :)16:13
alteregoI didn't get the N810 until miod January.16:13
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alteregoAnd I ordered it Nov, if I remember correctly.16:13
w00t_zaheerm-lp: they may have produced more, but demand going up means more is demanded (until a certain point when people go buy something that's out), meaning they end up overstocked as a result16:13
wazd_meh, I can't even order n75 from :D16:14
zaheerm-lpCoreFusion-, i think announcing that it has shipped helps noone, they should announce the date it is in the nokia stores16:14
w00t_wazd_: did they ever contact you?16:14
w00t_zaheerm-lp: and they did - in the US16:14
w00t_with the slight hitch that uh16:14
w00t_it's not available16:14
CoreFusion-When shipping half way around the globe you expect them to give you a presice date?16:14
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wazd_w00t_: erm, no :)16:14
w00t_wazd_: :/16:15
zaheerm-lpCoreFusion-, they own all the flagship stores, surely like apple they can do a coordinated release right?16:15
alteregoBREAKING NEWS: 4 of the 5 ships that are carrying N900's have sunk whilst on route from Korea :P16:15
w00t_I saw a post on tmo with a good picture for that, alterego16:15
alteregoThe 5th ship arrived safely with it's delivery to Poland.16:15
* alterego chuckles16:16
w00t_should make a nice blog post about it to create yet more media frenzy :-)16:16
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zaheerm-lpyou'd get divers trying to get their hands on them in the pacific16:16
CoreFusion-zaheerm-lp: and delay the delivery on other countries until the one store that is the slowest to get their shipment get it?16:16
alteregoI almost wet myself about the rumour that Nokia were halting Symbian devices.16:16
alteregoPeople are just so retarded sometimes ^.^16:16
PaulFertserCoreFusion-: what is coordinated release for?16:17
w00t_PaulFertser: direct that question to zaheerm-lp16:17
PaulFertserw00t_: you're right, i misread the comment :)16:17
w00t_my own view though is that it stops them being scalped and resold to death online to make cutthroat profits16:17
zaheerm-lpCoreFusion-, seems what they did right? finland to finland or other parts of europe is a pretty quick shopment16:17
CoreFusion-they are not shipping from finland you know?16:18
w00t_zaheerm-lp: they were produced in korea16:18
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zaheerm-lpyes i know they're made in korea16:18
zaheerm-lpwho flashes the firmware just before delivery? the koreans or the finns?16:19
w00t_presumably, it's all done there16:19
w00t_it would be rather inefficient to do it otherwise16:19
PaulFertserBTW, is jtag ~easily accessible on n900?16:20
* CoreFusion- goes to take the dogs out ->16:21
alteregoUrgh, the HD2 is Windows.16:21
zaheerm-lpPaulFertser, i was told it is not too difficult16:21
alteregoWindows trying to look like apple16:21
zaheerm-lpalterego, what were you expecting? :)16:21
w00t_alterego: indeed, but hey, I've been using WM for the past 4 years16:21
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w00t_it's not good, but it's tolerable16:22
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alterego3 days is more tolerable :P16:22
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PaulFertserzaheerm-lp: nice to hear, thanks :)16:23
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w00t_well, hopefully it will happen, like I said16:23
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alterego"480 X 800 WVGA" pahaha16:25
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sp3000that's TVGA :P16:25
mzzmeh, I'm pretty sure I've used a monitor with not many more pixels than that16:26
mzzerr, yeah, that's swapped16:26
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StskeepsPaulFertser: don't think there's jtag on either n900 or n8x016:27
Stskeepsat least wired up16:28
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PaulFertserStskeeps: oh really? that'd be very strange. How do nokia folks debug it on lowlevel then?16:28
Robot101eh, there's all sorts if you have a flashing station thingy which plugs into the pins under the battery16:29
StskeepsPaulFertser: serial? dunno16:30
PaulFertserRobot101: i know there's uart under the battery on n810.16:30
Stskeepsnolo's probably been debugged before final hw anyway16:31
alteregoThose pins are probably jtag16:31
alteregoWell, they're probably two things, jtag and a uart16:31
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Stskeeps for n81016:32
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PaulFertserUART on n810 is nothing new, but some serious work is better done with jtage.16:33
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alteregoIT seems to me, that Nokia get a lot of stress from the maemo community, I've not seen them get this amount of dogging for any symbian devices, but it seems to happen with every Maemo device so far,16:42
alteregoThough, I remember saying this exact thing last time too.16:43
Stskeepsintelligent buyers are scary16:43
PaulFertserBecause maemo community is educated enough to ask for cool and useful features and to require proper attitude.16:43
alteregoI don't know about intelligent, I read, t.m.o sometimes and wonder.16:43
alteregoThere's a laughable thread on the official nokia support forum about a load of unhappy N97 owners saying that Nokia should swap the N97 devices with N900's free of charge.16:44
Stskeepsi think we should delete the shipping threads when things do ship.16:45
Stskeepsthey've gotten too insane.16:45
alteregoIt's pretty old but I Came across it again today.16:45
w00t_the shipping threads are all that's keeping me *sane*16:45
w00t_i suppose this says somethi about my current frame of mind, though..16:45
Venomrusheven the new thread, 'n900 owners' are taking a hit16:46
Venomrushthought i would get some nice comments about the device from real owners16:46
w00t_Venomrush: hey, you're the same as on tmo?16:47
Venomrushw00t_, what's tmo16:48
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w00t_nice to put a name to the posts16:48
w00t_hi :-)16:48
Venomrushhi :)16:48
Venomrushjust started joining the IRC16:48
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lopzhi :\16:54
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kalikianalopz, what's with the sad face today? :)16:56
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* javispedro sighs at yet another mention of "the maemo 5 emulator"17:01
GAN900Time for a new drinking game.17:01
GeneralAntilleslardman, pong?17:02
ccookejavispedro: what's so bad about it?17:02
javispedroccooke: that people ARE making opinions about the platform based on it.17:02
lopzkalikiana, hehe ;)17:03
ccookejavispedro: argh!17:03
GeneralAntillesBrowser bug actually fixed.17:03
javispedronow consider the blue colors bug, that half the applications on extras are missing, that it is actually faster than the device..17:03
GeneralAntillesLet's see if it's really fixed. . . .17:03
lopzkalikiana, No sad face, is rare face:)17:04
javispedrofaster on cpu, while much slower animations if you didn't get 3d acceleration, etc.17:04
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Stskeepsany of you know what OMAP2420 core version the N810 has?17:05
javispedroccooke: and in the latest case I assume the guy is going to use "the emulator" to check for codec support. not realising it is not and emulator and the device uses dsp codecs.17:05
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javispedros/and emulator/an emulator17:06
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Stskeepsjavispedro: guy answered17:08
javispedrogood news :)17:09
* Khertan didn't go anymore to ... too many noise17:09
ccooke... *laugh*17:09
* Khertan did read anymore ... too many blogs with false statements ... 17:09
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javispedroah, planet.17:10
ccookejust had a guy come up to me saying he'd been in a documentation meeting where apparently they were talking about the n900 and griping that I had one ;-)17:10
lardmangood to see meetings are productive in your absence hey?17:10
ccookeit wasn't even anything to do with me :-)17:10
* Khertan hate all this maemo-guru, maemo-expert ... and all others look like blog maintained by people that come from symbian and didn't seeing far away from their neck17:11
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* Khertan prefers the old small maemo community ... without all this whinning people ...17:11
* Khertan can now be qualified as : asocial ....17:12
javispedrohah, welcome to the club!17:12
javispedro</ironic> ;)17:12
zaheerm-lpccooke, i'm sure people at work gripe about me having one too :)17:12
RST38hA private mailing list with device's MAC address as the password?17:13
* Khertan still didn't understand how people can vote thumbs down on guy announcing new program on planet ... or the start delivery of the n900 ....17:13
SpeedEvilqemu target and full emulation would be nice.17:13
SpeedEvilIf it wasn't 5% sped that is.17:13
* RST38h thumbs down all the posts from that goddamn Fennec aggregator17:14
* lardman skips straight to the development section17:14
Stskeepslardman: do you know what version of OMAP2420 sits in N810?17:14
lardmanStskeeps: no, and I'm not sure how one can find out either17:15
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lardmaniirc there's a command to return the DSP version, or I think there is17:15
lardmanbut that's probably not going to tell you what you need to know17:15
Stskeepslardman: guy answered, was on leave yesterday so17:15
lardmanperhaps CPU + DSP versions point to OMAP version?17:15
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lardmanah, so that's important is it?17:16
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Khertanexemple : Maemo 5 final release: firmware and updated SDK <<< the quim gil post ... announcing the availability of the new firmware and final sdk17:16
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Khertanhow can you vote thumb down on that17:17
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Stskeepslardman: heh, just imagine if it turned out the socs we have don't have it17:17
lardmanStskeeps: lol, that would be bad...17:17
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lardmanthough it appears to power up anyway, so I guess not17:17
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lardmanwill we get source for the test fns? Would be good to know what fails17:18
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Stskeepsgiving him access to my n810 atm17:19
KhertanQuestion about hildon.FileCHooserDialog ? i didn't get any icon like in other application when i run one on PyGTKEditor, did i miss something ?17:19
lardmanok cool17:19
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lardmanStskeeps: /me imagines ssh access + webcam to see if the screen does anything :)17:20
Stskeepsthat can be organized, but i'll get him to make the bloody thing initialize first17:20
kalikianaKhertan, what kind of icon?17:22
hrwlooks like Nokia is hiring in Finland17:22
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Khertankalikiana: the small one ... like folder17:22
hrwI got two mails from recruting company - one for device drivers, second for maemo development17:22
lardmanStskeeps: basically he needs to fix the display class stuffv17:23
Khertankalikiana: it s an open chooser dialog17:23
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kalikianaKhertan, here pyGTKEditor doesn't open any dialogue when I do File > Open17:25
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kalikianaor did you modify it?17:25
Khertankalikiana: i'm currently rewriting it from scratch for fremantle17:26
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Khertankalikiana: a preview :
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kalikianaKhertan, while you're at it, please fix the icons :D17:27
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Khertankalikiana: the icons ?17:27
Khertanwhat s the problem with it ?17:28
kalikianaKhertan, they are not themed17:28
* alterego thinks the "Countdown Home Desktop" widget screenshot should have a "Countdown until N900 released" screen shot instead ^.^17:29
Khertanhum ... but it s standart gtk stock icon so they should be17:29
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hrwKhertan: but it is maemo...17:31
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Khertanhrw: if i remember it s still based on gtk ?17:32
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hrwKhertan: patched gtk so I would check maemogtk sources first17:32
Khertanso i didn't understand why this doesnt work17:32
kalikianaKhertan, that's a bug in the platform, but I don't know if it will be fixed at all since there wasn't much response from designers17:32
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Khertankalikiana: and how does we get "Maemo"Stock icon ?17:33
Khertanthere is something somewhere about it ?17:33
Khertanor does should i use directly icon theme file ?17:33
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kalikianaKhertan, I have a little script that creates symbolic links. If it's not fixed in the platform, we'll probably have a package that contains such a script17:34
kalikianaSo far I'm waiting if something happens17:34
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povbotBug 223: Maemo doesn't contain properly themed versions of Gtk stock icons17:35
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kalikianaKhertan, meanwhile you can use GtkIconFactory to map icons17:35
kalikianathat's what I did in my code17:35
kalikianait's C, though17:35
kalikianaif it helps, I can show you the C code17:36
Khertanhum ... i ll try to look if there is binding in py thx17:36
Khertanoh yes ...17:36
* Khertan will be back in 2 minutes17:36
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Khertani m back17:43
Khertani m looking17:43
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GAN900Khertan, spiteful people.17:47
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GAN900lardman, pong?17:47
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KhertanGAN900: ?17:48
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GeneralAntillesKhertan, spiteful people are the people who thumb announcements like that.17:49
GeneralAntilles"But I can't afford an N900. :pout: :click:"17:49
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Stskeepswell, that's one downside to the sw platform being iterative... when next device comes out, old device is a lot cheaper17:50
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KhertanGeneralAntilles: yep but i can't understand that17:51
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GeneralAntillesKhertan, it takes a certain nasty mentality. ;)17:51
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KhertanGeneralAntilles: clearly ... and i don't see it using an open source device or contributing to an open source community17:52
GeneralAntillesSeriously, what was Engadget thinking?17:53
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GeneralAntillesZeigler must be some kind of stupid.17:53
RST38h(everyone run for the hills!)17:54
GiantTalkingCowWhat about Engadget now?17:56
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GeneralAntillesNew theme with the header from hell.17:56
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GeneralAntilles2048x1152 here and I can only see the title of the first article.17:57
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GiantTalkingCowWow, that looks awful. Back to Gizmodo for me, then.17:57
Khertanoh ... i ven't read engadget for a long time ago17:57
Khertanouch ... engadget is really horrible ....17:58
Khertanendgadget :)17:58
RST38hGoogle Reader.17:59
* RST38h never goes directly to Engadget nowadays17:59
GeneralAntillesDamnit, when did it get cold again here? :(17:59
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javispedroHTC HD2... windows... pft.18:09
alteregoYeah, I share an office with a guy who's contemplating either the HD2 or the N90018:10
alteregoFrom his perspective, he's probably better off with the HD218:10
alteregoHis current mobile is Windowsw.18:10
javispedroif you're used to it I guess anything else will deceive you.18:10
zaheerm-lpless risk for him then18:10
alteregoHe's a Microsoft nut18:10
javispedroYou have to be prepared to lose quite a chunk of functionality18:10
* javispedro lost decent PIM app when switching to the N810 from Palm m13018:11
alteregoOf course, he's a coder, and we've done Linux projects together, so it's not completely above him to do some hacking, but I think he'll be one of those people that just expects all of the apps he needs to be available straight away.18:11
javispedrofrom Palm T|X actually, but even the m130 PIM apps are good.18:11
javispedrooh, DDP reserved funds released!18:14
jayabharathAll: On freemantle (Maemo5) N900 -- does the Clutter based UI -- use OpenGLES 1.x or OpenGLES 2.x backend on OMAP3430.. Anyone here knows?18:14
javispedrojayabharath: 218:15
javispedrojayabharath: and it's using non trivial shaders18:15
javispedro(for example, blurring)18:15
javispedroand it's spelled fremantle.18:15
jayabharathjavispedro: Thanks for the quick answer...  (sorry about my spelling :D - my coffee has not yet kicked in)18:16
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hrwjavispedro: when you moved from PalmOS to Maemo you loose pim at all18:20
javispedrohrw: well, I use GPE now.18:20
javispedrobut the tap count is nowhere similar.18:20
javispedrowhich means less appointmens filed -> less organization -> more chaos -> less free time18:21
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Flyserthere is no calendar in maemo 5?18:21
GeneralAntillesThere is.18:21
javispedrothere is.18:21
hrwjavispedro: it is hard to beat palmos pim when it comes to simplicity of use18:22
kurtanwhere did you get that from ?  ofc there is18:22
javispedroFlyser: I'm talking about m418:22
hrwjavispedro: and I still miss Agendus18:22
javispedrohrw: I was a fan of the builtin pim. I didn't need anything more other than hard button -> tap -> start writing for appointment18:22
hrwjavispedro: I used many parts of agendus. more views, colours, icons, linking18:23
javispedrowell, I liked the colors and birthdays features from the extended palm1 apps.18:23
javispedrobut the rest--never used :P18:24
wazd_how many more people will ask for clock widget I wonder :)18:25
* hardaker will miss datebk618:25
Flandryi know huh18:26
wazd_we were making it with fiferboy but his wife brought new Olmsted in this world so the developement is stoped for a while :D18:26
GeneralAntillesDamn fiferboy 2.018:27
wazd_~seen fiferboy18:27
infobotfiferboy <n=fiferboy@Maemo/community/contributor/fiferboy> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 5d 21h 57m 17s ago, saying: 'If qwerty12 doesn't know it, it can't be known'.18:27
Stskeepsso true18:27
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, pish.18:27
Flandryprobably hasn't slept since then18:27
Khertanwazd_: wife bug always delay developpment18:27
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zeevdid anybody hear of smb. getting his N900 already?18:28
Khertansamba ?18:29
GeneralAntilleszeev, are you abbreviating because you're on an N900 keyboard? :P18:29
wazd_Run! he can infect us!18:30
Khertanzeev: just got a pre production one18:30
javispedrohalf this channel has one.18:30
wazd_and another half is me :D18:30
zeevI mean pre ordered one18:30
javispedrowazd_: and me :(18:30
wazd_javispedro: oh?!18:30
wazd_javispedro: how come? I thought you were on the summit18:31
javispedroI wasn't18:31
javispedroI'm on the DDP though18:31
Khertansomeone got an answer / confirmation from the store for the ddp device ?18:31
Khertani ve done the command and checkout ... but no news since, and never see anything on my online bank account18:32
toggles_wcan anyone that has one tell me if mariana will be in my contact list when i get mine?18:32
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Stskeepsheh, people who went to maemo developer days got a free n90018:32
Stskeepsnot a loaner18:32
wazd_Stskeeps: PR > Community :)18:33
KhertanStskeeps: really ?18:34
StskeepsKhertan: yeah, in cph18:34
Khertani ven't didn't hear about this maemo developper day18:34
Stskeepsmy former boss went18:34
Khertanwhat is it ?18:34
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wazd_Stskeeps: so your former boss have his very own n900 and you haven't? :D18:35
wazd_Stskeeps: oh this ridiculous life :D18:35
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Khertanit ll be very hard for next event made by nokia to caught a seat if they loan or offer device everytimes18:37
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hrwI hope that final Polish translation is better then one in SDK :D18:41
Stskeepsdanish one is horrible on device. i switched to english. :P18:41
hrwPolish one has wdgt_va_24h_time and wdgt_va_date_long18:42
zeevso nobody who preordered n900 got one, right?18:42
hrwI am 33 years old, got good education and do not understand those Polish words18:43
hrwzeev: there was rumour that we will get them in 2H201018:43
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ShadowJKzeev, I doubt it :)18:45
ShadowJKbut it's getting nearer now18:45
hrwscratchbox is sick18:45
andre__also to me it looks like Nokia saved money for localization :-/18:45
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andre__hrw, oops, should be
hrwandre__: I refuse posting bugs before testing on device18:46
Flandryhrw: That's the best summary i've yet seen :P18:46
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andre__hrw, i see18:46
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tbfandre__: hrw: yes, nokia got really strange guys for doing the localization18:46
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hrwand I want to shout/kick/makeharm for person which decided to use sbox for maemo18:47
Stskeepslo qwerty1218:47
tbfit's a specialized company, and those guys doing localization pretend to be native speakers18:47
hrwqemu is better then that crap18:47
qwerty12Hiya, Stskeeps18:47
tbfbut people had endless discussions with them over proper terms18:47
hrw10x resolv.conf just in /scratchbox dir...18:48
andre__some German translations I saw were just complete bullshit18:48
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hrwtbf: I know that Nokia refuse to use community translations. We tried to give them Polish translation of Diablo18:48
tbf...unfortunately those strange localization guys are very insistent, so most devs gave up on correcting them18:48
tbfhrw: let's talk with quim again.18:49
Stskeepshrw: harmattan will change that18:49
Stskeepsbig discussions about it and workshop coming up18:49
hrwStskeeps: and will attempt to grab next €€€ from pocket18:49
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javispedrooh nice, because I'm fearing that now that they control the toolkit too it will diverge even more from desktop Linux.18:50
andre__Community translations: Also see
hrwfor me n900 will be device which will show is there a sense on nokia devices18:50
tbfhrw: well. btw: nothing stops you from putting community translations into extras-devel18:50
hrwtbf: they will conflict with system one18:51
tbfhrw: if you give them a higher version number, as done in ubuntu ppas, the extras package will overrule the SSU package18:51
hrwtbf: to next SSU etc18:51
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suihkulokkihrw: have talked to timeless? he has done his own english translation18:51
tbfhrw: yes, that's the price to pay.18:52
hrwsuihkulokki: I know, I looked at his package some time ago18:52
tbfhrw: but i doubt there will be many l10n updates between major updates18:52
hrwtbf: I am not that type of developer18:52
timeless_mbpthere are updates for the first service release18:52
timeless_mbpwhich i haven't dealt with18:52
timeless_mbpi would not bet against additional strings18:52
hrwtbf: will rather stay with english18:52
tbfhrw: create a topic and and find people who help you :-D18:52
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timeless_mbpeven though they're expensive, if they're needed for a feature18:52
Khertanthe last fw update is better in battery drain ... but the modest bug is really annoying18:53
povbotBug 6219: Modest doesn't take care of preferences for automatic update18:53
tbfhrw: let's team up and finally overrule those weird translators nokia bought! :-D18:53
timeless_mbpmy intention is to when i'm feeling a bit better put together a debian/rules file to build this and push it to extras-testing18:53
andre__Khertan, vote, vote ;-)18:53
Khertani'm the opener :)18:54
andre__i know :-P18:54
tbfhrw: for edition the translations we could use one of the zillions web based tools18:54
Khertani ve already vote :)18:54
hrwtbf: I know18:54
hrwanyway now I wait for device to be shipped18:55
Khertanwith this last fw i was hoping we got a preferences for the instant messaging ... and instead of that we lost the one on email :)18:55
tbfhrw: i'd still would over this deal: you get and keep the forum topic running, and i provide technical support18:56
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tbfhell, my spelling!18:56
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hrwtbf: first I want to check state of translation. and then there is TomaszD who is official GNOME translator so he would be better person for that task probably ;d18:56
tbfhrw: you know where to find me ;-)18:57
Stskeeps(who's going to barcelona on behalf of Mer)18:57
hrwStskeeps: GSM conf?18:57
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Stskeepshrw: no, maemo barcelona long weekend18:57
hrwStskeeps: make one in Berlin...18:57
Stskeepsdocumentation, localization, ux/code, etc themes18:57
* hrw wants maemosdk without sbox18:58
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Khertanoh ...19:00
Khertanjust got a nokia store email ...19:00
Khertann900 available on fr store19:01
ccookeKhertan: cancellation? ;-)19:01
Khertan649 Euros19:01
Khertanno we cannot preorder in the fr store19:01
Khertanbut i m still waiting news from the "pseudo" pro nokia forum estore and the ddp19:01
Khertanno news, no answer to email, no confirmation for paiement19:02
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Khertannothing in bank account19:02
Khertandoes some guys get news for the ddp program ?19:02
Khertandid somebody already receive his device ?19:03
Stskeepsdon't think so19:03
TomaszDhrw, hey, what's up?19:03
hrwKhertan: second half of 2010 is latest rumour about ddp19:03
Khertandid you got an confirmation when buying ?19:03
Robot101Khertan: what does forum nokia offer?19:03
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hrwTomaszD: fixing Polish translation probably will need to be done - what do you think?19:03
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KhertanRobot101: nothing than that the way for ddp19:03
TomaszDhrw, fixing where, what?19:04
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Khertanhrw: lol19:04
hrwKhertan: my order is over week old and status did not changed19:04
RST38hHmm...looks like DPP reversed bank transaction19:04
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RST38hSo, no N900 this time? =)19:04
hrwTomaszD: Polish one has wdgt_va_24h_time and wdgt_va_date_long19:04
Khertanhrw: where did you see the statut ?19:04
Stskeepshopefully this means we all get free n900s, RST38h ;p19:04
hrwRST38h: mine was not yet unblocked19:04
hrwKhertan: in eStore19:04
RST38hSts: most miracles I have ever experienced weren't of a good kind...19:05
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hrwI am really starting to 'love' sbox...19:05
Khertanhrw: really ?19:05
hrwSetting up libosso-abook...19:05
hrwYou must be roo to launch this program.19:05
Stskeepsfakeroot apt-get?19:05
Khertanhrw: did you get an email after you have done paiement ?19:05
TomaszDhrw, what are you talking about? which application, official Maemo 5.0 release has missing Polish translations?19:05
timeless_mbptbf: i'm probably going to adapt my package to let people do semi live editing19:05
RST38hFN still shows N900 available for purchase, so I guess they cancelled it19:05
timeless_mbpbecause it seems like a lot of people would like that19:06
hrwTomaszD: in sdk I see those on statusbar instead of time19:06
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TomaszDhrw, well, probably the sdk is broken somehow when it comes to l10n19:06
javispedroah well, another week of "when's the DDP N900 going to ship?" ;)19:06
Kieron_haha ^19:07
Kieron_yo guys19:07
TomaszDhrw, I just found a couple of issues with 5.0 and reported them, some of those issues have already been fixed19:07
TomaszDI would guess that only the standard English engineering strings are included in the sdk19:08
tbftimeless_mbp: shall i change my nick from something matching "to be fair" to something different?19:08
RST38hjavis: So, before or after Christmas? Willing to bet?19:08
Khertanhrw: Oh i found that order link19:08
timeless_mbptbf: i'm too asleep to notice19:08
hrwTomaszD: or jsut older packages. I jsut did upgrade and sbox do not even want to start19:08
timeless_mbpi treat these strings as opaque19:08
Khertanhrw: thx ... no i m sure that the order was registered19:08
timeless_mbpi'm vaguely used to Sir tbl19:08
TomaszDhrw, have not had to deal with the sdk yet, I just installed it yesterday, I suggest you report any issue you find19:09
javispedroRST38h: I'd need it by December 16th, so my bet is December 17th.19:09
hrwTomaszD: I am waiting for device before will report maemo5 bugs19:09
javispedroavid Murphy's Law reader, you see :)19:09
Kieron_any Qt coders here?19:09
Khertanjavispedro: the problem isn't when when when ... but no information / confirmation / answer to email if the order was registered or not19:09
Khertanjavispedro: and in estore it s difficult to found the 'my order' link19:10
RST38hjavis: Why Dec 16 though?19:10
TomaszDhrw, good idea, also check the bugzilla before reporting, some of the issues you might encounter have already been fixed in internal builds19:10
javispedroKhertan: agreed, that's why I am yet to paid.19:10
hrwTomaszD: I know. I use that strange platform since fosdem 200719:10
javispedroRST38h: deadline before I decide to go on code a demo in iphone19:10
hrwTomaszD: and bugs were nearly half of my karma19:10
TomaszDalthough I'm very unhappy that they've ignored one of my suggestions, they call tags "znaczniki" instead of "etykiety"...19:11
TomaszDwhich is really killing me19:11
GeneralAntillesjavispedro, and HD2?19:11
TomaszDbut it's WONTFIX19:11
RST38hjavis: Ehehehe19:11
Khertannow i know that the order is registered  .... just waiting19:11
javispedroGeneralAntilles: unfortunately I can only steal iphones around here ;)19:11
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* RST38h wonders what .ru translation for tags would be19:11
Kieron_I have a question. About to start a coding project, for Maemo5 N900. I want to know whether if I start coding in Qt will it look identical to a normal C Maemo5 app19:12
javispedroGeneralAntilles: this is just a stupid for a stupid schoolwork, I'm not saying I'm going to switch to iphone.19:12
GeneralAntillesYeah, sure, whatever, traitor.19:13
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timeless_mbpGeneralAntilles: did you read 164?19:15
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hrwlovely nokia19:15
javispedrohrw: using the "maemo 5 emulator"?19:16
hrwjavispedro: yep19:16
hrwjavispedro: no emulator - virtualbox image with sdk19:16
javispedrothe don't worry, the spanish localisation is as incomplete19:16
timeless_mbphrw: what are you doing?19:16
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andre__"emulator" instead of "SDK" is so weird19:16
javispedroandre__: agreed.19:16
hrwtimeless_mbp: playing with so called 'maemo 5 sdk' in virtualbox19:16
Kieron_how can i get a web frame in Qt19:17
Khertanin the estore about my ddp n900  order ... i can read the line : Priority:   Critical19:17
timeless_mbphrw: i think you want my Mer l10n packages19:17
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javispedroblame venomrush and his "N900 emulator guide"19:17
Stskeepsjavispedro: he's in here :)19:17
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javispedroah, interesting.19:18
hrwI love nokia i10n ;D19:18
Kieron_Can anyone help me? I was referred here..19:18
hrwsfil_li_size_1kb_99 ;d19:18
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Stskeepshrw: what did you upgrade from?19:18
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hrwStskeeps: - official maemo 5 sdk image19:19
hrwStskeeps: did 'apt-get update;apt-get upgrade;fakeroot dpkg --configure -a' in sbox19:19
Venomrushjavispedro, haha what's wrong with my guide19:20
Venomrushi tried to amend the content and title19:20
Venomrushwont let me19:20
Venomrushcontent yes, title no19:20
Venomrushwhat do you want me to change19:20
Kieron_@javispedro danke :)19:20
Stskeepshrw: hrm, got nokia-binaries token?19:20
hrwStskeeps: one is inside already19:21
Stskeepsweird you don't get translations but ok19:21
javispedroVenomrush: well, make it clear the SDK is a developers thing -- and that it's not a "N900 emulator".19:21
hrwsomeone really need to teach maemo autobuilder about dependencies19:21
hrwStskeeps: I have Polish translation - just not complete19:22
RST38hVenomrush: Calling SDK "emulator" and trying to use it for anything outside development is what is wrong19:22
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Venomrushisn't it true it emulates N900 screen?19:23
hrwVenomrush: it does not19:23
Venomrushhence how i got the term 'emulator'19:23
GeneralAntillesVenomrush, the term is wrong.19:23
GeneralAntillesIt's not an emulator.19:23
javispedroonly the _ARMEL target emulates something, and it does not do that well.19:23
hrwStskeeps: l10n "6.0+r7250+0m5" are installed19:23
serenityi want to zoom in/out in picture viewer. But i found no sliders and circular scrolling doesn't work also19:23
Venomrushwell, i can't edit the title19:23
GeneralAntillesVenomrush, contact a mod.19:24
GeneralAntillessjgadsby or Reggie19:24
Venomrushhow would u like a new title to be?19:24
VenomrushSDK emulator?19:24
javispedro"Maemo SDK 5 Installation Guide"19:24
GeneralAntillesRemove the word emulator completely.19:24
Venomrushokay dokey19:25
javispedroand then i'll even thank you since it seems to have worked succesfully for quite a lot of people. Considering the odds of sbox...19:25
KhertanSoftware Development Guide - Installation and Use Tutorial19:25
Venomrushit does work well actually19:25
Venomrushi installed serveral apps and was able to report serveral bugs19:26
hrwhmm.. so I see it properly - no Jabber? AIM, GaduGadu, GTalk, Groupwise, ICQ, MSN, QQ, Sametime, Yahoo19:26
javispedroVenomrush: testing has to be done on real device.19:26
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serenityanyone an idea about zooming pictures?19:26
GeneralAntilleshrw, install telepathy-extras19:27
javispedroVenomrush: of course, unless you know enough about the target app you can tell apart a bug that would happen in both i386 or armel (like a typo).19:28
Khertanoh ... just remember that google os was presented today ?19:28
Khertanso any news ?19:28
javispedrobut that's not true for the platform apps...19:28
hrwwhen nokia and maemo will learn about Release.gpg?19:28
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javispedrohrw: the first days the fremantle repo was actually signed.19:29
Venomrushok, requested change to -> Maemo SDK 5 Installation Guide on Windows PC19:29
javispedroI don't what happened with that...19:29
Kieron_javispedro: any idea how to 'Hildonize' the GUI from Qt > N900, or does it render automatically19:29
Kieron_sorry im a symbian noob, not used to all this19:29
hrwGeneralAntilles: installed. got one more MSN and Salut19:29
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javispedroKieron_: I'm not a Qt dev, but I guess it does, considering that blog post says there are no "platform specific hacks"19:30
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javispedrowhat's the maemo-qt channel? it's still active?19:30
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hrwargh.. 'Tel. Kom. (pryw.)'... why.... why...19:31
Kieron_javispedro: cheers.19:31
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Venomrushcan i ask about the DDP, i'm thinking of getting a device through DDP to do development work, one retail for personal use19:31
Venomrushgetting the device through DDP is that a loan or a permanent buy? how come i was told i'm only able to keep it for a certain period until January or something, then need to return it19:32
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Venomrushthat's stupid forking out €250 euros and keep the device for only 2 months, does Nokia refund the money once they get the device back?19:32
qwerty12Getting a pre-production loan != the same as getting one from DDP19:33
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qwerty12Furthermore, you were only eligible for the DDP if you had 200 karma when they were selecting people19:34
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hrwmaemo5 calendar is worse then the one which I use on S60 ;(19:34
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hrwtime to write blog post19:35
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javispedrohrw: at least seems better than most of the current ones for diabl19:35
TomaszDhrw, how is it worse?19:35
zaheerm-lpi had 3 when the program got announced, i now have 175...shows 200 was in fact a very fair number19:35
hrwjavispedro: I like gpe calendar19:35
Venomrush200 seems pretty easy to get tbh19:36
Venomrushi only joined for 2 weeks19:36
ShadowJKzaheerm-lp, whoah :)19:36
Venomrushgot 115 already19:36
hrwTomaszD: repeats are worse then in handy calendar - cannot do 'repeat on 3rd Tuesday each month'19:36
zaheerm-lpShadowJK, people keep thanking my t.m.o posts :)19:36
TomaszDok, so that's one feature missing19:36
hrwTomaszD: and lack of timezone support suxx19:36
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javispedroah, features.19:37
javispedrohrw: I kinda hate the tap counts in GPE19:37
TomaszDhrw, well, report these as feature enhancements19:37
Venomrushis the DDP still on for those with 200+?19:37
hrwI have a meeting each Wednesday at 10:00 NYC time.19:37
hrwVenomrush: no, it was one time19:37
ShadowJKheh, my tmo link to isn't working :)19:37
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hrwTomaszD: first device, then bugs19:37
ShadowJKtmo is kinda insane, 2 days and 20 pages of new posts..19:37
* qwerty12 's DDP will go unused19:38
ShadowJKhow come?19:38
hrwqwerty12: it will have a use. similar to the one which some devices here have19:38
hrwqwerty12: it is called 'gathering dust'19:38
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javispedrovery useful.19:39
qwerty12ShadowJK: I already have a loaner for a year, and I believe there's a time limit in which I must order the device and I can't justify spending the money to do so :)19:39
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ShadowJKBut you can always use two19:39
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ShadowJKwhen one gets whacked by the watchdog you pick up the other one and by the time that one gets whacked by the watchdog you resume on the first ;)19:39
qwerty12Actually, I've been really lucky. I've only had one WD reboot with the latest firmware19:39
javispedroah, hardware multitasking ;)19:40
ShadowJKI do that with my N800 and N810.. when the N800 locks up because the browser wants to swapout 150 megabytes of crap, I pickup the N810 and read the IRC backlog ;)19:40
ccooke(mail from mpobilephonesdirect: They'll ship on the 3rd of December. This is actually the first *date* they've given - previously it's been "soon" or "November", etc)19:41
javispedrothe IRC backlog, which has 300k lines and thus causes the browser to hang19:41
qwerty12Oh, BTW, MicroB sucks for reading the IRC backlog19:41
qwerty12It loads the page fine, but the kinetic scrolling19:41
ccookeqwerty12: too slow? too fast?19:42
* javispedro wonders if by 2020 the irc logs main page will have enough day entries to overflow most desktop browsers19:42
qwerty12ccooke: Takes wayyy too long to get to the end19:42
* javispedro misses diablo already19:42
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* ccooke realises his irc client has been logging #ubuntu19:42
qwerty12At which point I say "fuck it" and load up Tear which still has a scrollbar, in addition to kinetic scrolling19:42
ccookeoops. Time to clear that 2 gig logfile :-)19:42
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Venomrushyou're all be glad to hear the title got changed..19:45
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* mgedmin feels bad about not improving irc log views19:48
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* Shapeshifter wants nokia to open up a flagship store in zurich.19:52
Shapeshifterthe swiss are rich suckers, they'll buy lots of phones. There's not even 8'000'000 people in Switzerland, and over 500'000 iphones have already been sold >.>19:53
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Venomrushi'm looking for service manual for the n90019:53
Venomrushlevel 1 to 419:53
Venomrushthey are available but at a cost..19:54
SpeedEvilThey are?19:54
Venomrushanyone already got them they can share?19:54
Shapeshifterany of you n900 owners have tried a screen protector?19:55
Shapeshifteror generally a screen protector on a resistive screen? Is it any good to have one of these?19:56
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Shapeshifteror does touching even get tougher?19:56
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serenityi want to zoom in/out in picture viewer. But i found no sliders and circular scrolling doesn't work also19:57
serenitybug or my fault?19:57
fralsvolume buttons?19:57
serenitydunno, is in scratchbox19:57
serenitybut should be available via touchscreen19:57
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dnearyDumb shit, I am19:58
qwerty12serenity: Try F819:58
dnearyFlashing wipes out any downloads off the MMC card19:58
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GeneralAntillesShapeshifter, I use Boxwave Anti-Glare protectors on most of my devices.19:58
dnearyThe internal one19:58
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Stskeepsemmc does yeah19:58
qwerty12dneary: Only if you flash the eMMC19:58
dnearyI'd downloaded a bunch of stuff :(19:58
GeneralAntillesThey haven't released one for the N900 yet, however.19:59
dnearyAnd was just following the instructions on the list19:59
GeneralAntillesdneary, FIASCO does not.19:59
ShapeshifterGeneralAntilles: I see.19:59
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GeneralAntillesOnly eMMC, which is something you'll never have to flash again.19:59
serenityqwerty12: f8 is what for?19:59
dnearyGeneralAntilles: It does if you go:19:59
dnearysudo ./flasher-3.5 -f -F firmware_image.bin19:59
dnearysudo ./flasher-3.5 -f -F -R emmc_image.bin19:59
serenityis does zooming via f7/f8. Are these the volume buttons?20:00
Venomrushtry martinfields screen protector20:00
Venomrushi've used it on my n9720:00
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Venomrushtheyre well made20:00
qwerty12serenity: Try it? AFAIK, it corresponds (on the N8x0, at least) to volume down (zoom out). I don't have an xev patched to let you use the volume buttons on the N900 to verify this20:00
Venomrushit doesnt have sticky feel20:01
Nitialany experience with zagg invisibleshields?20:01
serenityqwerty12: ah ok, but there is no option via gui it seems20:01
qwerty12serenity: Kinda pointless, when you can use the volume keys20:01
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serenityqwerty12: ok, thanks20:02
GeneralAntillesdneary, yes, it does overwrite the eMMC if you flash the eMMC image.20:02
Venomrush"Nokia Italy has sent delivery confirmation for pre-orders this afternoon 3:30pm CET by mail ... Credit Cards have already been charged accordingly! Yuppieeee!"20:03
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Venomrushhow does italy get it first?20:03
GeneralAntillesNitial, I prefer the Boxwave.20:03
Stskeepsthey bitch more?20:03
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qwerty12Pressure from the Mafia20:03
GeneralAntillesNitial, essentially scratch-proof, unlimited reapplications, good texture, good glare reduction.20:03
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Venomrushdoes Nitial give free replacement?20:04
Venomrushthe only thing i like about invisibleshield is they give free lifetime replacement20:04
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Venomrushyou need to send the old one back to them20:04
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ShapeshifterGeneralAntilles: did you ever notice any difference in sensitivity?20:06
GeneralAntillesShapeshifter, no.20:07
ShapeshifterI'm not used to resistive screens so I'll have to get used to it anyway.20:07
GeneralAntillesShapeshifter, big reduction in smudging, too.20:07
GeneralAntillesJust aim to tap with your fingernails instead of the pads.20:07
Shapeshifteryeah. I'm still growing fingernails20:07
Shapeshifterjust for that.20:07
ShapeshifterI'm thinking about getting these
GeneralAntillesYou don't need a lot of nail.20:08
ShapeshifterGeneralAntilles: I have none ;)20:08
GeneralAntillesIf you chew, that's a problem.20:08
GeneralAntillesBut otherwise. . . .20:08
GeneralAntillesShapeshifter, I strongly recommend the Boxwave.20:08
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lardman|homesome options here for those who don't drink enough milk:
lardman|homeI think #22334726 would be particularly effective :)20:10
lardman|homeoops, chop off the 72620:10
GeneralAntillesJust hire qwerty12 to do your tapping for you.20:11
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* qwerty12 isn't a gigolo...20:11
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GeneralAntillesI hear he also does taping.20:11
lardman|homebut he's trying?20:11
Stskeepshm, chrome os announcement today20:11
Flandrythat's a meaning of "tapping" i'm not familiar with :P20:11
lardman|homelet your imagination run wild ;)20:12
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GAN900Stskeeps, my apathy levels are absurdly high.20:12
StskeepsGAN900: better to know the competition though20:12
Venomrush"nokia have advised that we will receive stock into our nokia retail stores to allow us to dispatch your n900 on the 3rd december."20:13
Venomrushfrom nokia online store UK20:13
Stskeepsthey send it to retail stores first? :P20:13
* GAN900 is really digging having rocker scrolling back in fBReader.20:13
SpeedEvilVenomrush: no such mail for me.20:14
VenomrushSpeedEvil, me neither just copied from the forum20:14
VenomrushSpeedEvil, that guy ordered on the 1st Oct20:14
SpeedEvil20 oct here20:14
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Venomrush21st oct here20:14
Venomrushwe'll probably get it in a few hours20:15
StskeepsVenomrush: ''20:15
ShapeshifterGeneralAntilles: did you ever try any others?20:15
Shapeshifterha! chrome OS.20:15
Venomrushthe email doesn't look too professional20:15
Venomrushlooks like a rush email20:15
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StskeepsVenomrush: nokiaretail looks like a mobilephonesdirect thing20:16
cwong1Does Maemo 5 uses the Matchbox WM?20:16
StskeepsVenomrush: which may differ from
timelessanyone else have ukeyboard offer an update which failed to work?20:18
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VenomrushStskeeps, yes mate, mobilephonesdirect=nokiaretail but !=
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lardman|homeah, the wonders of VB20:21
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kirmain .fi nokia has stated that they start "delivering" tomorrow (unfortunately probably delievered at earliest on monday) for preorders, selling in flagship store next friday and other retailers deliver to customers at earliest friday after that, per contract20:23
Stskeepsoh dear, chrome os is a cloud us20:24
JaffaPretty obvious, really.20:25
Stskeepsyeah :P20:25
JaffaStskeeps: Is there a good writeup?20:25
qwerty12Stskeeps: Surely you did not expect more? I could tell, even by looking at that incomplete component list :)20:26
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Shapeshifterchrome OS is a joke20:26
Stskeepsqwerty12: true20:26
Shapeshifterbut good for linux.20:26
KhertanDépart des entrepôts estimé Vendredi 20 Novembre 2009 <<< Estimated date for sending 20th November 2009 ... tomorrow20:26
ShapeshifterKhertan: wooo20:26
qwerty12Shapeshifter: "OS" makes me crack up.20:26
Shapeshifteryeah :D20:27
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fernando__mahr Posted Nov 19th 2009 1:01PMHighly RankedJudging by Google's other services, Chrome OS should be awesome.20:27
fernando__lol engadget comments20:28
fernando__but lame, was expecting more to be honest :(20:28
Shapeshifterchrome "OS" is probably also made by like 5 people20:29
Shapeshifterso, that's all there is. It's a distro with some google "apps"20:29
Shapeshifterbut all I care it's linux and more people using linux means better/more drivers for everyone.20:29
rangeWhere's my Chrome vim?20:29
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qwerty12Ooh, Fuckin' A, Nokia. People: Please don't forget to umount your N900's eMMC. I just forgot, and I now get a device that is in a reboot loop20:32
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ShadowJKqwerty12, unmount it when?20:32
Shapeshifterqwerty12: what's this eMMC?20:32
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ShadowJKemmc is the 32gig memory chip20:33
qwerty12ShadowJK: When done with it. I forgot to do so20:33
qwerty12Grr, I'd expect weird behaviour when trying to use it, but a reboot loop is uncalled for20:34
Shapeshifterso, when updating the firmware (if that is necessary at some point in the future on a retail device) one needs to umount the eMMC manually once the update is done?20:34
qwerty12Then again, /home's home is on the eMMC20:34
Stskeepsqwerty12: what did you try to do?20:34
qwerty12Stskeeps: Copy a file to it20:35
Khertanlol .... ChromeOS ... is just a web browser ... they want to target NetBook ... the things you use most of the time when you travel... so without connect or slow one ... it s stupid20:35
ShadowJKqwerty12, ...20:35
ShadowJKqwerty12, over usb?20:35
qwerty12Oh, I see I forgot to say I mounted it over USB. Sorry20:35
ccookeSpeedEvil: you'll need X in the kernel :-)20:36
zashcompile firefox right into the kernel20:37
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GeneralAntillesSpeedEvil, lol20:37
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* SpeedEvil remembers back in hte day doing X+browser+kernel+networking on a 1.44 floppy20:39
SpeedEvilthough it was lynx20:39
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Nitiallynx OS20:40
Shapeshifterright. Any clues why nokia decided to push firefox to the n900?20:40
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Shapeshifterand not something webkit?20:40
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Shapeshiftergecko is quite the hog, or at least it's always been on the desktop.20:41
lardman|homelcuk: ping20:41
ShadowJKWhy would the make the switch when they've had it this long :)20:41
ShadowJKand already switched from opera once20:42
ShapeshifterShadowJK: on the n8xx it's already been firefox?20:42
ShadowJKMicroB, like on N90020:42
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Shapeshifterand I read there was "tear" for those, which some people preffered20:42
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ShadowJKI don't know if bundyo has made tear work on N900 yet :)20:42
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qwerty12It's in Extras-devel :)20:43
Shapeshifterwell, I strongly suspect webkit would run much faster on such weak hardware...20:43
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* lardman|home curses his version of VB for not knowing about Short20:43
ShadowJKShapeshifter, it's faster on most things, but extremely slow on some things20:44
Shapeshifterit is?20:44
ShadowJKmicrob is more consistent :P20:44
SpeedEvilI will here note that a couple of years ago I was using FF1.5 on a PII/300 with 800*600 display, and 96M of RAM, and it worked just fine.20:44
Shapeshifterand it's even incorporated in Qt20:44
ShapeshifterSo for nokia it would _now_ be ideal.20:44
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ShadowJKI suspect with tracemonkey, mozilla technology is taking the lead in speed agin20:45
ShadowJKOh, tear's memory use is kinda unpleasant on Maemo420:46
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Shapeshiftertracemonkey is enabled in firefox >3.5 right?20:46
Shapeshifterfrom what I'm reading.20:46
ShapeshifterBut midori and arora are both a lot faster then firefox, at least on my lap top.20:47
LupuIs there any way to expose the OS over USB mass storage on the N900?20:47
ShapeshifterI mean, 4x faster for many pages actually. Both lack features, but the difference in speed is striking.20:47
ShadowJKit's mostly consistently using more memory than microb, and triggering swapin/swapout in tiny bits all the time... microb seems to just have fits of rage when it gobs up a chunk of memory and spits out again, which results in a short stall, after which it resumes full speed... tear's behaviour makes for frequent stalls..20:47
SpeedEvilShapeshifter: yes20:47
ShadowJKLupu, not sanely20:47
SpeedEvilShapeshifter: (tracemonkey)20:47
LupuShadowJK: Your selection of words just got me curious :)20:48
KhertanLupu: use sshfs20:48
Khertanover network20:48
Khertanworks weel20:48
LupuKhertan: The whole point of it would be to fix things if I manage to get a reboot loop20:48
Lupu(they're much too easy to get)20:48
SpeedEvilLupu: there is no seperate 'mount via USB' chip20:49
lardman|homeon n900?20:49
SpeedEvilLupu: it's implemented as a gadget driver20:49
SpeedEvilLupu: it's part of the OS20:49
* Shapeshifter is watching top gear now.20:49
LupuSpeedEvil: True, but it has much lower requirements to boot into mass storage mode when you attach it to USB when the device is turned off20:49
lardman|homekernel still starts20:50
lardman|homeI imagine, same is true for charging20:50
LupuFor example, I managed to get it into a reboot loop by messing with pulseaudio settings.20:50
ShadowJKLupu, well, you'd have to run the OS from somewhere else... and then the OS isn't stored on a  block device, it's on a MTD, so you'd have to find some kernel module to present it as a block device... and then it's jffs2, which doesn't work on block devices, so you'd have to, on the computer side, dump the entire image into your own filesystem, modify it, recreate the image, upload the image, and hope all this bubblegum and jeesusteippi knows how to writ20:50
ShadowJKe it back properly...20:50
LupuAh, and I suppose USB mass storage only works on block devices?20:51
ShadowJKoh sorry it's ubifs not jffs2, but same limitations...20:51
ShadowJKLupu, exactly20:51
LupuAlright, thanks.20:52
ShadowJKa bootmenu + boot from sd thing would probably be more sensible setup if you want the ability to unhose it :)20:53
GAN900Shapeshifter, because WebKit was shit in 2006?20:53
ShadowJKprovided you don't kill it during the installing of bootmenu and stuff..20:53
ShapeshifterGAN900: possibly20:53
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Shapeshifterindeed it was20:53
GAN900Shapeshifter, besides, WebKit and Gecko are pretty close these days.20:53
GAN900Sorry, that was rhetorical.20:53
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KhertanLupu: so yep a boot menu and a second os on the sd will be better20:58
KhertanLupu: else keep near a desktop computer to reflash :)20:58
SpeedEvilOr just support booting over nfs-3g20:58
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realitygapsanyone have any idea how to get sound working in a chroot on n900? the old alsa method doesnt work as maemo seems to use pulse nowadays...20:59
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LupuShadowJK, Khertan: That certainly sounds interesting. Any recommended links on how to get started?21:03
LupuAlthough I'll have to look into it later...21:04
Lupubut thanks in advance21:04
Lupu*AFK* :)21:04
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aephm where did everyone get their n900 from?  i can't find any place shipping it21:08
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SpeedEvilbut - no customers as yet have recieved them.21:08
aepyeah says "preorder"21:08
SpeedEvilOnly ones out there are prerelease and loans21:08
aepthat might explain why people keep telling me the final version has some stuff fixed21:09
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Khertan <<< why i didn't have icon in the hildon.FileChooserDialog ?21:12
sp3000url isn't quite public21:14
sp3000not that I could answer your question, I just click at stuff randomly21:14
qwerty12Khertan: "Hmm. This file is unavailable.There are two possible reasons for this. It's either been deleted from Ovi or made "private" by its owner."21:14
qwerty12Hiya, yerga21:15
Khertanoups ... didn't find any .... public21:15
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Khertanhum don't know how to make it public21:16
qwerty12Upload it elsewhere, then :)21:17
sp3000I think it's per album21:17
kalikianatoli"This page requires an Ovi membership", not nice :)21:17
qwerty12kalikianatoli: Yep... And I had to dig out my Ovi information to get to a page I'm not allowed to look at :)21:17
kalikianatolidouble fail21:17
sp3000yeah, pick an album -> album settings21:18
Khertanqwerty12: yep21:18
yergaHi qwerty1221:18
Khertan <<< why i didn't have icon in the hildon.FileChooserDialog ?21:18
yergaKhertan, I'd say it's a python problem21:18
yergaKhertan, it happens in my applications too21:18
Khertanyerga ? ah sorry didn't see your answer21:18
Khertanok ... something listed in the pymaemo bugs ?21:19
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yergaI haven't seen any bug about it21:19
Khertanok ... i ll create one so :)21:20
yergaok, thanks21:21
lmouraKhertan, a minimal example will be nice :)21:22
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Khertanjust the time to make a minimal example21:22
Khertanlmoura: of course !21:22
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yergathere's a GtkWarning in the terminal output: "GtkWarning: Invalid icon size 0"21:23
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yergabut I don't know if it is the culprit21:23
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wazd_CromeOS revealed, Google insanity confirmed21:24
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kalikianatoliHm... so let's see how long my upload request will take..21:25
ShadowJKit's possibly 5 or 10 years too early :)21:25
yergaqwerty12, I haven't said thanks for bug 5300 yet, so here you are: Thanks!21:25
povbotBug Support sending files via Bluetooth in file manager21:25
wazd_ShadowJK: more like 500-1000 :D21:26
qwerty12yerga: Thanks :)21:26
ShadowJKand 5 years too late, you want to wait for technology to catch up so that there's enough bandwidth to suppirt this kind of thing, but you also want to do it BEFORE turning evil21:26
yergaqwerty12, I have uploaded some docs to GoogleDocs from the filemanager through pixelpipe21:26
wazd_ShadowJK: you really think that cheap affordable fast internet will be everywhere within 5 years? :)21:26
yergaqwerty12, everything worked fine21:26
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ShadowJKwazd_, I'm just going on previous experience of how bandwidth has doubled :)21:27
qwerty12yerga: Awesome. From the File manager, it works fine, but with other apps... :)21:27
wazd_ShadowJK: you in your appartments can have like 1GBit connection :)21:27
wazd_ShadowJK: my connection at the country doubled too. 0*2=0 :D21:27
ShadowJK2003 I had 10 megabytes, 2004 I had 100 megabytes, 2005 or so 64kbit/s unmetered, then it went up to 128kbit/s and 2 years ago to about 256kbit/s.. then another connection came and gave 1mbit/s :)21:29
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povbotBug 6254: FileChooserDialog didn't display files or folders icon21:29
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lmouraKhertan, thanks21:30
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Khertanlmoura: for information : i'm using pymaemo-optify since 2 days and didn't notice lag or bug21:31
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wazd_Stskeeps: how fast mer boots on mature PC btw? :)21:35
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Stskeepswazd_: about as fast as ubuntu 9.0421:35
wazd_I have an idea21:36
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Stskeepsno, 0sec boot isn't sane21:36
wazd_let's boot browser first and then everything else :)21:36
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johnsqJust display a login wallpaper, than is the user happy!21:36
wazd_and google will be screwed :D21:37
moo__isn't palm webOS all about booting the browser? ;P21:37
wazd_moo__: kinda21:37
wazd_Stskeeps: seriously, is it more possible than 0sec boot? :D21:37
Stskeepsof course all sorts of marketing tricks is possible21:38
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wazd_Stskeeps: that's not marketing, it's a nice UX feature21:38
fernando__"it's like chrome... but in os form"21:38
wazd_Stskeeps: user can watch some pron before actual work :D21:38
fernando__next it'll be pog form21:38
fernando__and then the cycle will be complete21:38
VenomrushN900 is available in Italy mainly because 3 sim users there are unaffected. See bug report
Stskeepswazd_: i bet i could sell a mer variant with instant porn access.21:39
VenomrushComment 1021:39
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pwnguinarg. why is the eyes widget so damn popular?21:43
JaffaAnyone know of any success getting a Windows laptop to connect via BT or USB over the N900's data connection?21:43
fernando__eyes are the window to the soul, surely that applies to maemo too21:43
qwerty12fernando__: Eyes Widget is awesome =)21:44
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Shapeshifter"Fast boot: We have improved boot performance by removing a lot of complexity that is normally found in PC firmware"21:46
Shapeshifter_they_ have done it?21:46
Jaffawazd_: Big technical problems, though: what about h/w detection? Difficult to browse wihout a network connection or display...21:46
Shapeshifterthey take quite a lot of cred for what the linux community has made of linux lately.21:46
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fernando__ hmm21:51
fernando__sure is a browser, sure is21:51
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wazd_Jaffa: you think it will take much to boot up display, touchpad/touchscreen and wifi? :)21:52
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Shapeshifter lol from 3:05 what a joke21:52
Jaffawazd_: I think it's not doing much more than that now21:52
Shapeshifter"4 seconds". from what was that supposed to be? looked like a wake up from suspend to me, to a login screen. any linux does that.21:53
Shapeshifterthat was not a boot up. on most machines, even lap tops, you can hardly get by the BIOS is 3 seconds.21:53
Shapeshifterrip off.21:53
wazd_Jaffa: how InstantOn is made then? :)21:54
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courmischJaffa: USB yes. BT is not supported in the sales software21:57
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* Shapeshifter hopes the n900s for switzerland arrived together with the ones for italy in genoa21:58
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Jaffawazd_: Carefully controlling hardware, BIOS and software. i.e. not easily21:58
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Jaffacourmisch: Using PC Suite? Not sure I'll bother withe 32MB download, but handy to know.21:59
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courmischJaffa: it's just a standard USB ACM interface. You can use the Microsoft PPP dialer like in the old days22:03
wazd_Jaffa: well, if you'll consider devices like SmartQ 7 - hardware can't change, so maybe just remember it on the first run and then make no "check"? Sorry if I'm talking stupid :D22:05
ShadowJKI would never install PC Suite or any equivalent thing from other manufacturers..22:05
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ShadowJKWhen did windows gain native bluetooth stack btw? was it late XP or vista? I remember it was easier to "tether" with my phone over bluetooth with the native stack than with any of the non-microsoft stacks :)22:07
qwerty12_N810ShadowJK: XP22:07
* Jaffa has never seen a Windows XP with it, despite it supposedly being in SP222:08
alteregoIt's in SP3 I know that for sure22:08
alteregoAs that's what I'm using a BT dongle in that previously required a shitty driver that didn't work at all.22:08
alteregoNot properly anyway22:08
Jaffawazd_: didn't the question talk in terms of PCs, but yes, that is one trick you can do.22:09
wazd_Jaffa: well, laptops can use this trick too22:09
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ShadowJKVista could connect perfectly to internet over Irda to my previous cellphone too, with 0 extra software :)22:10
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* RST38h moos at wazd22:16
moo__ShadowJK: SP2 added BT support22:17
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CoreFusion-Haha, interesting size-comparison; The first S60 device from Nokia, 7650 vs. N900 -->
qwerty12_N810Bleh, systeminfowidget:
kalikianatolilooks like the least useful package ever :D22:21
* RST38h had 765022:22
lbtkalikianatoli: you've not met scratchbox then?22:22
RST38heven programmed for it22:22
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qwerty12_N810CoreFusion-: But the 7650 could recieve MMSes!22:22
* qwerty12_N810 hides22:23
kalikianatolilbt, I'm actually having fun with it regularly :-/22:23
RST38hqwerty: a way22:23
RST38hit was a seriously buggy phone22:23
qwerty12_N810I can imagine..22:23
CoreFusion-qwerty12_N810: indeed, it is superior to N90022:23
kalikianatolilbt, fun as in "fun" btw, not that you think I somehow like that thing :P22:24
* RST38h hears remote screams from tv, as yeti eats another poor chap22:24
* lbt has become involved in a purification exercise wrt "the box"22:25
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* qwerty12_N810 wonders if the systemwidgetinfo maintainer is around: simply forgot $(DESTDIR) in Makefile22:26
* RST38h puts a random but relevant tmo nickname to a recently eaten chap22:28
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qwerty12_N810RST38h: From which "Why the fuck isn't my N900 here?" thread?22:28
RST38hqwerty: Oh, there is plenty of choice nowadays...22:28
RST38hI am missing our old inpatients dearly22:29
* lardman|home hits the sack22:29
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fernando__like god 2.0, amazon has to deliver the nokia tablets to our moseses 2.0 just in time22:36
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hrw|goneah. one thing22:52
hrw|gonecan someone with recent firmware on n900 do one thing for me?22:53
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hrw|gone'dpkg -l *calendar*plpl'22:54
hrw|gonewhich revision it returns22:54
hrw|goneso Polish translation is OFFICIALLY fucked22:55
hrw|goneas I have same version in sdk22:55
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PaulFertserNokia/trolltech/qt OT: isn't it fun, my friend spent helluva time trying to diagnose ./configure problems with the sources downloaded from just because for whatever reasons all files there have braindamaged CRLF EOLs :( Works fine with "unzip -a" though but it's not exactly easy to guess.23:05
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lbtPaulFertser: use git :)23:06
RST38hwhy are crlfs a problem?23:06
lbtftp is for windoze23:06
PaulFertserRST38h: first of all, #/bin/sh^M is not a valid intepreter.23:06
PaulFertserRST38h: and other stuff like that, try yourself.23:07
RST38hyea, got it23:07
* RST38h kinda expected make to understand crlfs, but #/bin/sh^M thing is fucked23:07
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PaulFertserlbt: (git) well... probably it's the best way but i hoped the devs can find some way to warn users. Not every Qt developer knows how to diagnose such nasty shell scripting problems.23:07
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lbt*nod* - worth mentioning in #qt - it could be a new thing23:09
PaulFertserRST38h: not only the intepreter line causes the problems, after fixing that other more mysterious issues surface.23:10
PaulFertserlbt: ok, will do.23:10
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PaulFertserlbt: they told me it's a feature, not a bug :) windows really needs that and *nix users are supposed to download .tar.gz or .tar.bz223:19
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javispedrowhat? MicroB doesn't allow me to Take over the world?23:20
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lbtPaulFertser: makes sense.... what sane linux user uses ftp ?23:20
javispedrobah. Can't be! I'm always right! I want my N900!23:20
PaulFertserlbt: none of my friends are sane23:20
Shapeshifterwhat a silly questionaire.23:21
SpeedEvilmeh - 'open only to legal residents of the 49 United States'23:21
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javispedrowhat would you expect?23:21
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javispedroif they ask "Does Maemo 5 use Gtk+ or Qt?" 95% would answer Qt23:21
SpeedEvilexpected - but hope crushed.23:22
fernando__First Maemo phone with Raw Computer Power(limit 5 per customer)23:22
fernando__lol newegg23:22
ShapeshifterMh. Maybe it's time to order the n900.23:22
lbtSpeedEvil: open only to legal residents of the 49 United States   ???23:22
* fernando__ entered the sweepstakes, btw :323:22
SpeedEvillbt: the sweepstake23:22
lbtthe survey has a sweepstake?23:22
lbtonly open to the US23:22
SpeedEvilyes - win 3 n90023:22
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fernando__that video is new too, isn't it?23:23
lbtSpeedEvil:the survey sent to -developer ?23:24
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wazd_ <- back to NEXT? :D23:24
* lbt is about to reply-all "Can you confirm that this survey has a sweepstake but us 2nd class, non-US people are not eligible to enter?"23:24
VDVsxoh, 10 packages in the queue :(23:24
VDVsxbusy times23:24
SpeedEvillbt: no23:24
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qwerty12_N810VDVsx: More like a slow autobuilder...23:25
fernando__chromeos uses skydrive? lol23:25
lbtjust checking :)23:25
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VDVsxlbt, worked for me :)23:25
VDVsxwazd_, is that crome OS ?23:26
wazd_VDVsx: yep23:26
lbtQ1 Which country do you live in? A : UK...... error.... must be at least 4 chars....23:27
lbt"The UK"23:27
qwerty12_N810lbt: "We Owned Your Ass"23:27
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GeneralAntillesShapeshifter, surely, and Mozilla didn't make the browser, but a free N900 is a free N900. ;)23:27
lbtqwerty12_N810: "Original and best"23:27
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SpeedEvillbt: The united kingdom of great britain and northern ireland.23:28
fernando__so what is that future crew window on the top left?23:29
fernando__when the task switcher is first shown23:29
javispedrooh, that video is new.23:29
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VDVsx"Normally it takes about 15-30 minutes for the package to be processed." <- Lies :P23:30
fernando__it looks like a star wars game lol23:30
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Nitialdemo created by Future Crew for Assembly '93 demoparty23:32
fernando__ah, thanks23:32
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fernando__(loving the maemo marketing dept. choice in promo video music, btw)23:33
* timeless visits Kamp Cafe23:34
timeless(which closes promptly at 11:30pm)23:34
timelessspeedevil: did you get an n900?23:34
suihkulokkihehe, someone from the scene in the marketing clearly23:35
qwerty12_N810timeless: A picture of the sign, please23:35
timelessum, i don't have maemo recorder23:35
timelessthe waiter person tried to send me to the (intoxicated) bar23:35
timelessthis place is quieter and more comfortable23:36
timelesswhat's my password?23:36
qwerty12_N810A sec...23:36
mzawhere is my device!23:37
qwerty12_N810mza: Next to me23:37
* lbt pets his device23:37
timelessmza: my device is on loan23:37
Shapeshifteryou are all evil.23:37
kynkymza italy and usa are happy i thought23:37
javispedromza: qwerty12_N810 is using it to gather dust23:37
* lbt must write a "purr" app...23:37
timelessit went to the usa w/o me23:37
mzathey said it would ship next week:(23:38
mzawhy is everyone saying it shipped this week?23:38
mzaso frustrating23:38
kynkymza, they always say that23:38
jhpHi everyone. Has anyone in the Netherlands allready received a N900 ?23:38
Shapeshifterjhp: no.23:38
javispedrohas the N900 shipped already?23:38
jhpOr anywhere else in Europe ?23:38
Shapeshifterjhp: nobody has received one.23:38
RST38hjavis: they just cancelled dpp orders23:38
RST38hor, at least, put the money back into accounts23:39
Shapeshifterjust relax.23:39
qwerty12_N810jhp: Man, you should've gone to the Summit...23:39
javispedroRST38h: aaaaah you though you were going to make me have a heart attack, but NO! I read the news previously.23:39
javispedroand also didn't order it, so ...23:39
timelessiirc they had similar problems w/ n800/n810 orders23:39
kynkymza, two definitions of shipping, shipping to resellers, and shipping to ustomer is diff, nokia put an official statement it was released in usa this week, ppl in italy on maemo say there devices are being shipped23:39
mzahave any of the maemo devs started working on on portrait mode?;)23:39
qwerty12_N810timeless: You'd think "third time lucky",  but no...23:39
javispedrosomeone even ordered the n800? how  can someone order something that's not a phone!?!23:40
mzakynky, thx:)23:40
kynkymza, i thought they had23:40
qwerty12_N810mza: If a developer wants it in their app, then yes (for their app)23:40
mzai know they acheived portrait mode on the N81023:40
kynkyaparntly portait version of web browser being worked on23:40
mzathat's so bad assed23:40
kalikianatolimza, I think several Extras apps will support it, but probably only browser and phone from the official apps23:41
mzai can deal with that23:41
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mzaso f'n excited23:41
timelessfwiw, i'm annoyed23:41
kalikianatolithere's an issue with rotation performance, that will hopefully be resolved soon23:41
kynkyexcited and annoyed, lol23:41
jhpSo, basicly it hasn't shipped yet ?23:42
timelessi have an n900 and nokia(usa).com won't offer me pcsuite for it23:42
* Shapeshifter isn't able to work anymore and instead just sits around sipping tea checking the forums every couple of minutes and writing pointless things like this in IRC. Man... I sure hope I'll get the n900 in two weeks time or else I'll fall behind with work.23:42
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kalikianatolitimeless, who needs that anyway? :P23:42
qwerty12_N810timeless: With the PC Suite, one download fits all23:42
Shapeshifterjhp: no it hasn't. I'm guessing the devices are on trucks to distributors by now.23:42
javispedrois there a pc suite for mac either way?23:42
kynkyShapeshifter, set up live feeds :) for that instant update feeling23:42
qwerty12_N810timeless: I was pleasantly surprised to find out it worked when I tried it in September, even23:42
mzaso what's the RCA output like? will it do DVD quality?23:43
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Shapeshifterjhp: with italy already covered as the devices most likely arrived in genoa. just a guess.23:43
kynkymza, if you call 480p dvd quality, then yeah i guess :)23:43
mzathat's not bad at all23:43
ShapeshifterThough... thiking about it, it probably didn't even ship by ship23:43
Shapeshifterthat would've taken too long from korea.23:43
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Shapeshiftertakes like 3 weeks or so from korea to italy.23:43
mikhasmza, actually watching vids on the device is quite enjoyable23:43
kynkyzune does 720p, and creative zii egg phone does 1080p out23:43
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mikhasthe high DPI makes it possible23:44
qwerty12_N810Shapeshifter: FWIW, the N900 pre-prod. model I have is made in Finland23:44
CoreFusion-dvd video is usually 720/704×480 (NTSC) or 720/704×576 (PAL)23:44
kynkythe snes with wiimote on tv is good demo, bounce on tv, quak3 on tv, all on youtube for n90023:44
Shapeshifterqwerty12_N810: I know. But I thought production is going on in asia. Would be a bit odd if it didn't. Especially as the device isn't even that expensive.23:44
javispedrokorea iirc.23:45
kynkyalso n900 will be one of first with flash 10.123:45
lbtqwerty12_N810: mine is just "designed in finland"23:45
mzaim hoping works23:45
CoreFusion-Production models are made in korea23:45
mzathat would be SICK23:45
PaulFertserflash? N900 will support flash? :(((23:45
kynkyit supports flash9.4 already23:45
CoreFusion-Nokia's so called beta production line is in finland23:45
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kalikianatolibtw Khertan, would you also consider removing the "close: yes no" dialogue? it breaks closing from the task switcher23:46
GeneralAntillesPaulFertser, please chill out on the zealotism.23:46
kalikianatolior maybe conditionalize it23:46
qwerty12_N810lbt: Label on this one says "Made in Finland" but that cost me the N900 label in the top-right corner23:46
GeneralAntillesNormal people want to watch movies of other normal people doing stupid shit.23:46
timelesskynky: not a chance of flash 10.123:46
GeneralAntillestimeless, they announced it for next year.23:47
GeneralAntillesIt was the first device they demoed, too.23:47
javispedroyeah, well...23:47
timelessreally? url?23:47
kynkytimeless, already announced i thought, a few days ago, gettig same time as webos iirc23:47
javispedrovmware demoed vmware too.23:47
fernando__they demoed it on an android device wasn't it?23:47
timelessvmware demod vmware for the n80023:47
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timelessbah, no one tells me anything23:47
mzaThe MLB.TV Media Player is built on Adobe Flash Player and requires Flash Player 9.0.11523:47
fernando__(unrelated, but anyone here tried garnet VM on the N900?)23:47
GeneralAntillesYeah, but they didn't announce a release.23:47
GeneralAntillestimeless, they know you'll just try to make their lives more difficult if they do. *eg*23:48
timelessmza: we have something like 9 0 24623:48
mzai hear it chokes playing hulu23:48
timelessgan: was they nokia or adobe?23:48
javispedrothe flash team is not known for their speed (amd64 flash anyone?)23:48
GeneralAntillesmza, my Atom machines can't even play Hulu23:48
PaulFertserGeneralAntilles: it's not about being a zealot. Do you personally consider flash (and especially the way it's used mostly) a good _technology_. Good as _superior_. Not talking about free software/religious aspects.23:48
timelessmza: yeah, i tried hulu when i was stateside, it didn't work23:48
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timelesssome of mtv did though23:49
kynkythe n900 > *23:49
timelessthe guy from mtv was impressed23:49
ShapeshifterPaulFertser: no, it's abysmal. Still, most people need it. Even me. And I hate flash.23:49
GeneralAntillesPaulFertser, I consider it a necessary technology to help sell open source to consumers.23:49
GeneralAntillesand thus make more opensource.23:49
ShapeshifterPaulFertser: there's no discussing flash.23:49
Shapeshifteror the neccessity of it.23:49
mzai wish hulu would create a low quality stream for things23:49
GeneralAntillestimeless, may be this.23:49
kynkyi think most ppl hate flash, but alot need it23:49
mzai think once more mainstream devices get flash, they will23:49
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GeneralAntillesNope, wrong vid23:50
GeneralAntillesWhich one is it. . . .23:50
fernando__nah, they'll probably make a dedicated iphone app and charge for it :D23:50
dmj726yeah...hopefully flash can be replaced with html sooner rather than later23:50
GeneralAntillesAaaah, timeless,
Shapeshifterdmj726: xml rather.23:50
kynkydmj726, blame apple and ms, for why the lag, ie dont support video tag, and apple dont support ogg video iirc23:51
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dmj726most flash can be replaced with html 523:51
Shapeshifterdmj726: ah right. canvas23:51
Shapeshifterit's cool.23:51
dmj726Oh believe me I do blame them23:51
kynkywell most ppl use flash for videos, where flash isnt really needed, it just a bad universal container, and the other main us of flash i see is for ads23:52
realitygapsanyone else getting 'operation failed' a lot with the n900 camera?23:52
Shapeshifterby the way, did people get invited to the maemo summit? Who received a device and who didn't?23:52
dmj726Windows and Mac are the only Operating systems that can't seem to ship with an html 5 / ogg enabled browser23:52
realitygapsShapeshifter: everyone at the summit that didnt work for nokia got one I think23:53
Shapeshifterrealitygaps: so, one could just pop over and get one for a year? >.>23:53
dmj726Even Flash animation shouldn't really be presented with Flash23:53
realitygapsShapeshifter: and it was open invitation anyone could sign up23:53
qwerty12_N810Shapeshifter: 6 months23:53
Shapeshifter6 months.23:53
ShapeshifterI see.23:54
realitygapsShapeshifter, yep - but noone knew that when they signed up for the summit23:54
realitygapsso it was generally serious ppl heading to amsterdam i think23:54
PaulFertserkynky: flv is not flash i think. And it's supported by all modern players, so that's not a problem. Problem is that some think they need to ship shit (skype, flash etc) to the customers or else they won't buy otherwise perfect device.23:54
kynkydmj726, microsofts answer, silverlight, :(23:54
ShapeshifterPaulFertser: which is entirely justified >.>23:54
dmj726silverlight is worse than flash23:55
PaulFertserShapeshifter: probably23:55
kynkyPaulFertser, its just that flash can be easily supported as embedded in browesrs, if i wanted to  i can play flv in mplayer23:55
PaulFertserShapeshifter: but it's too sad to admit23:55
dmj726Sivlerlight works on barely anything I use.23:55
GeneralAntillesPaulFertser, you can't change the world overnight.23:55
GeneralAntillesrealitygaps, although judging by some of the people who got devices there there were some silly ones mixed in, too. ;)23:55
mzai wonder if the device would be powerful enough to transcode flash23:55
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kynkythe linux moonlight port of silverlight is way behind23:55
dmj726an always will be23:56
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javispedromoonlight is not fully oss23:56
dmj726since we can't exactly make it our own without defeating the point of moonlight (compatibility)...same situation as WINE23:56
javispedroso, forget about it on non x86 platforms23:56
*** promulo has joined #maemo23:57 it'll always be catchup...and browser spoofing etc23:57
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kynkywell silverlight is supposed to be used for ui on winmo7, and that targets arm architecture23:57
dmj726kynky: moonlight23:57
kynkydmj726, my bad23:58
dmj726Care to install windows mobile on the n900?23:58
realitygapsGeneralAntilles: hope you werent referring to me :) yes there were a few people who came along to see the summit and got lucky, i know at least one in NL23:58
kynkybut in a way if we get the vm working on n900, then in a way you have silverlight support23:58
GeneralAntillesrealitygaps, no, not you.23:58
GeneralAntillesrealitygaps, blogger types, mostly.23:58
realitygapsGeneralAntilles: yep there were some media types around. but also a couple of randoms who just thought oh-that looks like a cool summit im gonna go as im in NL23:59
kynkydmj726, they got wince working and andrid working on n900 via vm23:59
mzahow long before android is ported?;)23:59
realitygapsGeneralAntilles: some drupal people i met for example23:59
qwerty12_N810realitygaps: How's the BBC iPlayer stuff going? /me has been missing his dose of Eastenders recently...23:59
mzaandroid runs on the N81023:59
mzadont see why it cant be ported to the N90023:59

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