IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2009-11-18

owensent to urho00:01
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konttoriowen: thanks00:01
CoreFusion-hmph... too much for me, I hope they will implement support for ads00:01
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konttoriI would also love to have the ad supported version.00:01
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konttoriwell, I can always use my mac, but still.00:02
CoreFusion-owen: can you spare me one :)00:02
owenyeah sure whats your email?00:02
owenonly for  Sweden, Norway, Finland, the UK, France or Spain.00:03
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VDVsxdon't paste email here, the channel is logged, you're risking more spam :P00:03
owenaccording to website00:03
VDVsxowen, yup, can't use it :(00:04
owengmail has good spam filters though00:04
CoreFusion-i was just about to say that :)00:04
CoreFusion-have been using for years and i have had spam in my inbox less than 10 times00:04
Flandrypupnik: I changed the lander discovery font to light green in next uqm version00:05
Flandrythanks for reporting :)00:05
VDVsxCoreFusion-, true, they could use their spam filters in google groups as well, my inbox spam is all from groups :(00:05
konttorinight all!00:05
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javispedroif you every use samba as server on a tablet, ensure you don't get selected as the domain local master.00:08
javispedroor watch your battery burn.00:08
javispedrowell, with smb your battery will burn either way, but still.00:08
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pupnikhow big is the install of server+client, javispedro ?00:08
javispedrohum.. I didn't measure it.00:09
pupnikused to be giant00:09
javispedrowell, the smbd binary is 2.6 MiB00:09
javispedrothis is with -Os00:09
javispedrohere it is. server = 2.8 MiB (.deb compression)00:10
pupnikvery much better00:10
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pupnikjavispedro: tried blitting snes 2x withiut emu running00:15
pupnikjust to test sdl update at 523x384?00:16
pupniki saw some talk about gtk pixbufs etc00:16
lbthas anyone used gnokki with the n900 ?00:16
pupniknever saw fps for standard sdl blits00:16
lbtI asked earlier but I've been out :)00:17
pupniknit i00:17
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pupnikso cool how you can escape out of sdl with tap upper left00:29
* pupnik tries running many things :)00:29
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dmkaehey pupnik00:37
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b-man17~seen xnt1400:38
infobotxnt14 <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 7d 11h 37s ago, saying: 'awesome ;)'.00:38
pupnikdude javispedro 50% system load00:38
pupnikto get video + audio out the door00:38
javispedroah, well..00:38
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pupnikthis needs to become a dialogue again00:39
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pupnikand i am not sure i should be very active in it00:39
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pupnikmight be fun eh?00:41
pupnikapparently i was not nearly enough of a pain in the ass last time00:42
pupnikbtw i am using a > a  b > z  x > x  y > s   also Fn for escape00:43
pupnikcursor keys win over n810 dpad, handily :)  good job there, nokia00:44
javispedrothey do?00:44
javispedrothat's nice to hear.00:44
jaempupnik, definitely00:44
pupnikfor me00:44
jaemthe keyboard is pretty nice once you get used to it00:44
* javispedro wonders how they'll do playing mario kart00:44
CoreFusion-i don't like the dpad on N810...00:44
LiraNunahow's the battery life?00:45
CoreFusion-the center button is too big00:45
jaemmy main annoyance is that there are two buttons under the space key - it's probably necessary, but it always throws me off when touch-typing00:45
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jaemLiraNuna, should get you through a day00:45
LiraNuna"horrible" eh00:45
pupnikbuttons under the space key?00:45
jaemI use it quite heavily, the more so because it's new and shiny, and lasts me about a day - also, it's prerelease, so the retail units may be better00:45
* javispedro sees that only animation actors and remote textures are scaled00:46
javispedroso I'd need to create a new window from SDL... though.00:46
jaempupnik, two actual switches00:46
LiraNunajaem, oh right, some stuff are disabled aren't they?00:46
jaemsometimes it will feel like it's doubleclicked00:46
jaemLiraNuna, not sure00:46
javispedrothis needs more though.00:46
LiraNunaI've heard BT is disabled00:46
jaemLiraNuna, not with mine00:46
LiraNuna(on the preview units)00:46
jaemit's a later model00:46
LiraNunaI see00:46
GeneralAntillesLiraNuna, really early protos.00:46
jaemkeep in mind, though, that I use it heavily, and that it is a computer00:46
pupnikbt works here mostly00:46
LiraNunaGeneralAntilles, I didn't know it changed00:46
GeneralAntillesLiraNuna, most of the bloggers you've seen have gotten them in very roundabout ways.00:47
GeneralAntillesLiraNuna, and their units are REALLY early.00:47
LiraNunaI see00:47
LiraNunawas it software issue?00:47
GeneralAntillesHardware, AFAIK00:47
GeneralAntillesA lot of them have 16GB, too.00:47
LiraNunaah yes00:47
LiraNunaI recall that too00:47
CoreFusion-But that doesn't matter now :)00:47
GeneralAntillesMines from around September and its hardware mostly matches retail.00:47
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jaemGeneralAntilles, mine was borrowed from Nokia at Dev Days, for a project00:48
LiraNunahow about software? can I get a uname -a? :D00:48
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jaemLiraNuna, one sec00:48
GeneralAntillesLinux Nokia-N900-42-11 2.6.28-omap1 #1 PREEMPT Wed Oct 28 15:32:55 EET 2009 armv7l unknown00:49
pupnikwell no need to buy a n900 for performance in sdl games00:49
pupnikslower than n80000:49
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* pupnik salutes00:49
jaemLinux Jelena 2.6.28-omap1 #1 PREEMPT [date] armv7l unknown00:49
javispedropupnik: not surprised (compositor, pulseaudio, ...)00:49
LiraNunaI thought they're gonna use .3100:49
jaemLiraNuna, yes - at least it's fairly recent now00:49
GeneralAntillespupnik, seems like there were some performance fixes in the pipeline.00:50
LiraNuna.28 has a lot of performance regressions00:50
pupnikim going to imagination forums someday with a cart full of trout00:50
pupnikah nice00:50
LiraNuna.27-.29 to be exact00:50
javispedrowell the kernel version is probably not going to change for the whole of the n900 lifetime.00:51
javispedrounless you consider m6 plans..00:51
Flandryslower than N800? oO00:51
* pupnik sad00:51
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pupnikflandry, i can give you patch to make uqm update fullscreen00:51
pupnikbut what for00:52
LiraNuna<pupnik> slower than n80000:52
Flandrywhy would we want to update fullscreen?00:52
pupniklook at that 'top' output under drnoksnes guys00:52
LiraNunaI thought there's HW accel now00:52
GeneralAntillesLiraNuna, specifically for SDL. :)00:52
pupniklira comparing now00:52
javispedropupnik: warning, warning. remember drnoksnes on n900 uses sw scaling.00:52
LiraNunaso SDL does not use HW accel I take it?00:52
GeneralAntillesLiraNuna, and, like I said, I think there are performance fixes in the pipeline.00:53
Flandryafaik no hardware acceleration of anything00:53
LiraNunabut "slower" would still be weird00:53
GeneralAntillesThere's an SDL OpenGL bug on bugzilla.00:53
javispedropupnik: use "none" scaler00:53
LiraNunaas 400MHz -> 600MHz is significant00:53
javispedroOpenGL doesn't help for putting 2D images00:53
LiraNunaespecially on ARM00:53
* LiraNuna wants OpenVG00:53
javispedrowell it's not much significant when the bottleneck is memory bandwidth.00:54
LiraNunaoh, so it's bandwidth problem, not rendering speed00:54
javispedroyeah. we're talking about 2d here.00:54
javispedroputting pixels to screen.00:54
CShadowRunWasn't the N900 supposed to be in shops yesterday?00:55
Flandrystill, wouldn't using a OGL surface for SDL speed that up?00:55
javispedrono, why?00:55
LiraNunaI thought it's 30th Nov00:55
javispedroopengl is not designed for "putting pixels to screen"00:55
CShadowRuni heard 16th, but meh ok :P00:55
LiraNunaI might be wrong too00:55
LiraNunaI mean, that's what newegg says ->
Flandryi guess i'm thinking of a device with video RAM00:56
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ShadowJKStill, lcuk manages to push lots more pixels to screen on n900? :)00:56
javispedroyeah, he uses xv.00:56
CShadowRunwikipedia says it was released on 11th november :S00:56
Flandryit *would* be faster for scaling00:56
pupnikk i was wrong, n900 faster - n8110 hd disabled accurate gfx00:56
CShadowRunI went into a vodafone shop today and asked about the release date, they tried to sell me an Xperia X1, i was like :|00:57
javispedropupnik: accurate gfx having such an impact? which rom you're testing?00:57
CShadowRunAnd i chuckled when they said Windows CE00:57
pupnikn900 1 fps faster - ct00:57
CShadowRunThey told me it was just as capable00:57
jaemCShadowRun, ha!  were they just trying to sell you something else, or were they being stupid?00:57
javispedroct... this reminds me of the mode5 borders bug. baaah00:57
CShadowRunjaem, just trying to sell me something else, they apparently arn't going to be offering the N900 on contract00:58
LiraNunamode5 border bug? GBA?00:58
CShadowRunThey also told me the N97 mini was the same as the N90000:58
javispedroLiraNuna: SNES00:58
pupniklets just have sdl HW surface be something accelerated and non composited00:58
LiraNunaGBA inherited that 'bug' as well00:58
pupnikir i will wind up the whine siren here00:59
LiraNunaMODE5 - double buffered framebuffer 128x96 px 16bit00:59
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javispedroLiraNuna: what you mean by GBA? snezzy or other snes emus on gba? or actual gba hw?00:59
LiraNunaactual GBA HW00:59
javispedronever read of it :P01:00
Flandrywell what does an "accelerated" HW surface mean in SDL then in N900 context01:00
javispedroin SDL means little.01:00
pupniksomething where i blit 400x240 and fill screen without software scaling01:00
javispedroI mean, in current SDL on N900.01:00
pupnikand wiithout copying unnexessary data01:00
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Flandrybecause memory bandwidth is the limiter, right01:01
Flandryand there's no VRAM01:01
javispedrono, because it does not do nothing :)01:01
pupnikthat is the damn proble  description01:01
javispedroexactly :)01:01
LiraNunano texture cache?01:01
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LiraNunaI thought it's OGL ES 2.0, no shader support to scale?01:02
javispedrosetting SDL_HWSURFACE does nothing, that's what I mean.01:02
javispedrobecause ... nothing's implemented.01:02
LiraNunaright, but is it possible?01:02
LiraNuna<Flandry> and there's no VRAM01:03
javispedroof course you can use OGLES 2.001:03
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Flandrybut it is reading/writing to main memory unless it fits in registers01:03
Flandryseems pretty pointless actually01:03
pupnikhmm glsdl01:04
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javispedrobut remember that your color buffer will get converted into a texture and drawn again...01:04
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javispedroby the compositor.01:04
Flandryi hadn't really thought of it in those terms :/01:04
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javispedroand the pandora guys basically said that the powervr sucks at updating textures.01:04
Flandryhow much cache does the GPU have?01:05
javispedro(there's this new nokia texture_from_pixmaps which may be faster though)01:05
pupnikjavispedro: i hate how drnok lurches ... damn...01:06
pupniklike a stumbling drunk01:07
pupnikhow about a volume limiter as an nalternative to eq.  konttori is right01:07
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pupnikomething an app could request from dbzs?01:08
javispedrodunno what you mean by lurching...01:08
pupnikslow fast slow fast01:09
javispedrodoes that happen with a fixed frameskip?01:10
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javispedroeither way debugging anything without hw is absolutely awful and I don't plan to do it again :)01:13
Flandryyeah i can understand that01:14
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* CoreFusion- listenign to Waldo on spotify, thanks owen!01:15
Flandryi've been looking at info on the SGX 530. Still can't see any info on cache. It must have some cache, right?01:15
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pupnikyour mode7 is awesome javis01:15
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pupnikas fast as normal in ct01:15
javispedroi want to share it back some day...01:15
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javispedroFlandry: why would you be interested in that?01:16
pupnikjavis, i wasnt running fixed but auto01:16
pupnikfixed seemed really strange01:16
javispedropupnik: yeah, but may explain if there's some weirdness caused by it.01:17
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pupnikjavispedro i think fixed 20fps could be doable01:17
javispedropupnik: an interesting thing to test would be killing the compositor (hildon-desktop)01:17
javispedrohowever If you do it "as is" will cause a reboot01:18
pupnikheh good läord01:18
pupnikheh yes?01:18
javispedroand I don't know if that /etc/no_lg_reboots file still works..01:18
pupnikmusic like a bar mityvah band at 3 AM01:19
* javispedro wants to test how omapfb performs... oh... I want free time.01:20
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Flandrybecause the size of the GPU cache is very relevant in a system that is memory bandwidth-limited?01:36
javispedrodepends on how the GPU works.01:36
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derfGPUs are always memory bandwidth-limited.01:36
Flandrynot entirely true, but anyway i was referring to the entire system01:37
javispedrothat's the reason the powervr is tile based..01:38
Flandryso it can be small, hmm yeah01:39
luke-jrFYI: PowerVR SGX == Intel GMA 50001:39
Flandryyou make it sound so dirty01:40
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pupnikjavispedro: how bout adding diagonals to drnoksnes01:42
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javispedroah, yep.01:42
pupnikso i can zse p . del for an i-way pad01:42
pupnikwill work perfectly01:42
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pupnikn900 3-row kbd will make a NICE dual-joystick setup for robotrin and smashtv01:44
pupnikcant wait to show kids how to play that01:44
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Flandryoh man. Smash TV01:48
FlandryI forgot about that one01:48
wiretappedso is the n900 in stores yet?01:48
wiretappedi would like to buy one01:48
wiretapped't heard back on the dev discount thing yet01:48
Flandryi'm excited about Ikari myself :)01:48
GeneralAntilleswiretapped, yeah, you haven't gotten yours yet?01:48
GeneralAntillesEverybody else got theirs.01:49
wiretappedi was a little late replying01:49
wiretappedto the ddp01:49
GeneralAntillesSorry. :P01:49
wiretappedi'm ready to buy one retail01:49
GeneralAntillesDDP is supposedly shipping Friday or next week.01:49
wiretappedand sell it if/when i get the ddp01:49
javispedrowishful thinkiiiiiing01:49
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wiretappedso does anyone know which US retailers are getting them?01:51
* wiretapped wants to walk into a store and buy a mobile device with a preinstalled xterm01:52
GeneralAntillesRumors say Best Buy, maybe.01:52
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wiretappedmaybe i'll just get that instead01:53
GeneralAntilleswiretapped, they took it down, apparently.01:53
GeneralAntillesSo who knows what's what.01:54
GeneralAntillesSupposedly retail units are coming a week or two after pre-order units.01:54
wiretappedi finally got to use one for 15 minutes, at least01:55
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wiretappedit's awesome :)01:55
GeneralAntillesNokia doesn't want any of your nerdy shit on Maemo 5. :P01:55
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pupnikdoes sending audio at 24 or 48khz lower pulseaudio system load during resampling?01:56
wiretappedtheir built-in themes are much less in need of replacing this time01:56
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wiretappedbut somehow i expect that there will be more themes for maemo5 than there were for 4 :)01:56
GeneralAntillesMaemo 4's default was the first theme that wasn't completely horrifying.01:56
GeneralAntillesI'd love to see a Bora Plankton port to Fremantle, though.01:57
wiretappedi'm a bit sad that the sidebar is gone; it was so perfectly suited for LCARS01:58
zaheermmy resolv.conf stopped getting updated on my n900 when i change network etc.01:58
zaheermanyone with any ideas as to how i can get normal behaviour again?01:58
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dmj726hi zaheerm02:15
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dmj726are you available atm?02:15
zaheermdmj726, hi yep02:15
zaheermconnection flaky however02:15
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dmj726I noticed that you're the maintainer of zope.interface02:17
VDVsxzaheerm, btw, are you arranging your BCN flights with Nokia's travel company ?02:17
dmj726What's going on with that?02:17
zaheermVDVsx, yep02:17
zaheermdmj726, in what way?02:17
VDVsxzaheerm, did you already received any reply ?02:18
dmj726I know that it's not on the tablets and the repos say it didn't build02:18
zaheermVDVsx, they sent me an email today saying they reserved x flights for me02:18
zaheermVDVsx, they want a reply from me whether they should confirm them02:18
zaheermdmj726, aah yes02:18
VDVsxzaheerm, when did you send the request ?02:19
zaheermdmj726, i had an issue with the python-van package that it build deps on tracebacking02:19
dmj726It's needed to port this one app I started porting.02:19
VDVsxI didn't heard from them yet, they used to be fast02:19
zaheermVDVsx, last friday02:19
VDVsxzaheerm, ah ok, I sent mine in the weekend02:20
zaheermdmj726, i can provide you a deb if you want02:20
dmj726the deb works?02:20
zaheermdmj726, but it is armel only not x8602:20
dmj726silly question02:20
zaheermdmj726, otherwise you'll have to wait for me to sort it (plan to do it this week)02:20
pupnikheh how do get brackets in n900 xterm? i see no symbols icon02:21
zaheermpress fn sym02:21
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pupnikctrl, tab, esc, pgup, pgdn, minimize/max02:21
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dmj726Send me the deb in case I have time for it.02:22
zaheermpupnik, you only just got your n900?02:22
zaheermdmj726, email address?02:22
dmj726THough I suspect I'll have more time over thanksgiving02:22
pupnikjust got it running again02:22
zaheermdmj726, sent02:24
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dmj726zaheerm: thanks!02:29
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mdaumHello all.  Looking for info on controlling the N900's camera.02:54
mdaumParticularly shutter speed, for example.02:55
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CoreFusion-What about it?02:58
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mdaumWhat API can I use to control it.02:59
CoreFusion-I have no idea, sorry :/02:59
mdaumHow I can get access to events from the "take picture" button.....02:59
mdaumGenerally camera control.02:59
CoreFusion-Have you tried searching the wiki?03:00
mdaumA bit.  There's something called GDigicam03:00
mdaumYes, I've seen that.03:01
mdaumI'm not saying it's not useful.03:01
mdaumGood starting point, but doesn't point me to the deeper info.03:01
mdaumGDigicam has a very similar "hello world!" to the one you just linked03:01
mdaumBoth seem to studiously avoid using the "take picture" button.03:02
CoreFusion-there is a part that talks about "Take photo", is that a different thing?03:02
mdaumEven the camera app provided doesn't provide shutter speed control.03:02
mdaumIt's a hildon button on the touch screen.03:02
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mdaumLabelled "Take photo"03:03
CoreFusion-ok, you are talking about the hw button?03:03
mdaumnot the physical button on the top right of the device03:03
mdaumYah, that's the one I'm talking about.03:03
mdaumIt's nitpicky, but I'm doing research into the way cameras jitter when people take pictures.03:04
CoreFusion-Ok, then I guess you'll just have to wait until there is someone here who knows about that, I can't help you with that03:04
mdaumSo I'd really like them to be doing it the way they usually do.03:04
mdaumThanks for listening :)03:04
CoreFusion-what kind of research?03:04
mdaumComputer vision03:04
derfWhat lab?03:05
mdaumUniversity of Toronto, DGP03:05
CoreFusion-so what are you looking for exactly?03:05
mdaumSee if today's cheap sensors provide enough telemetry to really help deblur shaky images.03:06
CoreFusion-sorry for my bad english but what you mean by telemetry?03:07
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mdaumMeasurements of the physical position and motion of the camera while the shutter is open.03:07
SpeedEvilDeshaking - significantly - isn't really practical due to SNR limits usually.03:07
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SpeedEvilThe camera will - probably - be limited to a full readout in some smallish fraction of a second - IIRC ~1/10th of a second is typical for this class of sensor.03:08
SpeedEvilIt may have a faster 'binned' output mode.03:08
CoreFusion-only 110th??03:09
SpeedEvilCoreFusion-: yes03:09
CoreFusion-And here I was hoping that I wouldn't have to drag my camera with me always..03:10
SpeedEvilThe performance of the camera is not bad - for a phone camera.03:10
SpeedEvilIt really, really suffers if you compare it to a 'real' camera though unfortunately.03:10
CoreFusion-SpeedEvil: Well I'm used to a dslr..03:11
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CoreFusion-I knew it wouldn't compare to it, but for casual photos..03:12
CoreFusion-it doesn't really matter that much03:12
SpeedEvilLook on flickr  for n900 images.03:12
SpeedEvilIt's quite good - for a phone camera.03:12
CoreFusion-I have seen some of them03:12
CoreFusion-And some are good, some are not03:12
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CoreFusion-I think that it's highly affected by the conditions03:13
SpeedEvilBright light is always going to show off most cameras.03:13
mdaumWell 1/10 should be slow enough to see camera shake blur, no?03:15
mdaumOf course the N900 has a CMOS camera, which complicates.03:15
mdaumThe camera app has an "exposure" setting, but it sort of seems to act like gain.03:15
mdaumSpeedEvil: the deblurring works better than you'd think.03:16
pupniki did night oix in amst03:16
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CoreFusion-pupnik: care to share them?03:17
pupnikyiu can see the usual problems with nolise and purple fringing.  exposure was good03:17
pupnikflickr arnim-s03:17
pupniksorry for dupes03:17
SpeedEvilmdaum: Are you counting real images, or are you doing it on simulated noiseless images?03:17
pupnikdear sweer lord03:17
pupnikdown to 1400 cycles with dropouts03:17
pupnikhere we go03:18
mdaumSo far I'm only using synthetic data, because I haven't gotten real telemetry yet.03:18
dmj726I can't tell...has image quality been improving with recent firmware updates?03:18
SpeedEvilmdaum: you've quantised the data - and added noise and blur?03:18
SpeedEvilmdaum: and you've counted the bayer effect?03:18
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mdaumOoh.  What's the bayer effect?03:19
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pupnikwonder if we can ditch or temporarily kill pulseaudio03:19
SpeedEvilBayer is the colour filter matrix in front of the pixels03:19
mdaumHere's one of the recent papers, SpeedEvil: Howdy.  I'm having trouble connecting to a bluetooth sensor from my laptop.  But I have an N900 that it works from.  Here's the hcidump of it working from the N900:  and here is the dump of it *not* working from my laptop:
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SpeedEvilIt is the way black and white sensors fake being colour sensors.03:20
mdaumHere it is:
SpeedEvilWell - a way03:20
pupnikn900 runs dosbox slower than n80003:20
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mdaumAh, I see the bayer effect.03:20
CoreFusion-pupnik: that's odd03:21
mdaumUsually you solve for the blur kernel on the intensity image, and then deblur the color channels in a non-blind way using that kernel.03:21
* SpeedEvil waits till he has a better connection.03:21
mdaumNoise is an issue.  Everyone models it as gaussian, which breaks down for jpeg.03:22
SpeedEvilI'm not sure if the sensor output JPEG - it might03:22
dmj726then don't use jpeg?03:22
mdaumIt can do png03:22
SpeedEvilSome sensors natively output jpeg03:22
SpeedEvilIn at least some modes03:22
CoreFusion-RAW FTW!03:22
dmj726the sensor shouldn't be doing jpeg...that would be silly03:23
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SpeedEvildmj726: nevertheless, it is done sometimes.03:24
mdaumSensor may not do jpeg, but it may be all the user has access to nonetheless.03:24
dmj726I wouldn't care about that on a crappy dumbphone vga camera, but something that has decent optics shouldn't03:24
dmj726I hope the n900 lets us write non-jpeg software03:25
mdaumIt does.  But it's much slower to write back the images.03:25
CoreFusion-mdaum: about that link you put; nice deblurring indeed.. :)03:25
dmj726just because of the bigger file size?03:25
mdaumPretty good, no?  Sadly not my work.03:26
mdaumBut that paper made a splash.03:26
mdaumThat was my guess dmj72603:26
dmj726still would allow for reasonable rate of capturing stills though I hope?03:27
CoreFusion-I send them a msg if I could get that code :) I could try it out on couple of my own pics :)03:27
mdaumIt's matlab code.  Worth trying tho.  I'd love to hear how it works for you.03:27
dmj726very nice debluring03:28
CoreFusion-Yeah I have access to matlab at school03:28
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mdaumNo problem then.03:28
SpeedEvil - camera with inbuilt jpeg03:28
SpeedEvilIt's actually built onto the same chip as the sensor03:29
mdaumHow cool is that?03:29
SpeedEvilit's so that you can do jpeg video without much external heavy lifting03:29
mdaumTen bucks.03:29
CoreFusion-Hmm.. I could get one of those for my robot :D03:30
dmj726ah...well that sounds useful for simple robotics projects03:30
* dmj726 remembers how challenging it was to get a robot to find and calculate position relative to a green light.03:30
SpeedEvilah yes03:30
SpeedEvildmj726: It's not really very. You need to read all the image out in 1/30th of a second or so - so it's not so easy03:31
CoreFusion-haha, lucky me that our robot project was in the end very simple03:31
SpeedEvilThe camera delivers best-in-class, 30 frames per second UXGA-resolution output, for fast image capture, using an on-chip hardware M-JPEG (Motion - Joint Photographic Experts Group) encoder, or 15 fps YUV (Luminance-Bandwidth-Chrominance) output with no compression03:32
dmj7266 weeks is a short time to design and build a 150 lb/78 lb robot03:32
SpeedEvilAll in 8*8*4.5mm03:32
mdaumWe should get a whole bag of those.03:33
CoreFusion-you have a picture of it?03:33
CoreFusion-dmj726: ?03:36
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dmj726When I was in high school I started a FIRST Robotics team...they give you 6 weeks to build a bot.03:37
CoreFusion-do you have a picture of the robot you made?03:38
dmj726let me see if I can find one03:38
CoreFusion- << two pictures of our robot, 1 during building it and 1 in action ;)03:38
CoreFusion-it was remote controlled03:39
mdaumCorefusion: was it for sumo?03:39
CoreFusion-we dominated :P03:40
dmj726it was half remote/half autonomous03:40
CoreFusion-I can look up a video of the match if you want?03:40
mdaumOh yes.03:40
CoreFusion-At our shcool, Metropolia University, Helsinki, Finland03:41
mdaumFinland.  Nokia.  Maemo.  It all becomes clear.03:41
CoreFusion-haha :P03:41
dmj726I found a video clip showing us destroying the tether port03:43
CoreFusion- it's quite big...03:44
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dmj726url fails03:44
CoreFusion-that thing is huge03:44
CoreFusion-let me check03:44
CoreFusion-damn... it looks like they have removed it03:45
dmj726I should mention that our huge spring-loaded ramps had to be removed since they put us 12 pounds over weight.03:46
dmj726...this weight issue somehow never got noticed03:46
mdaumI'm blinded by the lens cap!03:46
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dmj726"CoreFusion-: that thing is huge" which bot were you referring to?03:47
CoreFusion-dmj726: the one you linked in youtube03:47's pretty big03:48
dmj726We were pretty inexperienced that year03:48
dmj726...and our tool selection was limited too.03:48
CoreFusion-did you get the dl started for the video i linked?03:48
dmj726Our bread and butter tool was a reciprocating saw03:49
dmj726yeah...taking a while to download03:50
CoreFusion-It's the school's server so they should have a decent upload03:50
dmj726150 ish KBps03:50
dmj726a match03:51
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CoreFusion-what was the weight limit on those?03:52
dmj726120 pounds03:52
CoreFusion-like I said.. huge :P compared to ours :D03:52
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dmj726I haven't seen yours yet :P03:52
dmj726would you believe that it's hard to keep a robot to 120 pounds?03:53
CoreFusion-haha, depends what it has to do?03:53
dmj726Teams routinely drill holes everywhere possible to shave off 2-3 pounds03:54
dmj726or weld to avoid the extra weight of the nuts and bolts03:54
CoreFusion-what kind of motors did you have to move it around?03:56
CoreFusion-We had two motors from a small srewdriwer :D one had about 3 newtons torque... :D03:57
dmj726the drive system was a pair of 2.5" CIM motors03:58
dmj726there were other motors and the arm was pneumatic03:58
CoreFusion-how much left?03:58
dmj726how many motors left?03:58
CoreFusion-no... the dl03:59
dmj726one minute03:59
dmj726We had several motors that we didn't use though.03:59
dmj726that's a big file you sent there04:00
CoreFusion-yeah that's the video that the media-guys at school worked out of the tournament04:01
dmj726those are the size of the practice tournaments in the preseason04:01
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CoreFusion-thanks :)04:06
dmj726very good acceleration04:06
dmj726which was your bot?04:06
CoreFusion-Well it was the only one to use all 4 wheels, tho everyone had the same 2 motors04:07
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CoreFusion-the red/metallic one04:07
dmj726you made the one with the curved snow plow?04:07
CoreFusion-yeah :D04:07
dmj726It seemed to do nicely04:07
dmj726Our bot couldn't score04:08
CoreFusion-there was 3 competition, 1 was a speedtest along a 5m track, one was a "tunign-show" as in the croud woted for the best looking and then there was that "Robot wars"04:08
dmj726However, we managed to win all but two matches in the qualification rounds04:08
dmj726Turns out our robot was an amazing defense bot04:09
CoreFusion-we aimed to win the wars from the beginning, didn't really bother with the others :P04:09
CoreFusion-we came second in the speed test but that was just bad luck04:09
dmj726one of the matches we didn't win was a 0-0 tie since nobody on our team could score and we managed to prevent the entire other team (which could) from scoring04:10
CoreFusion-there was 3 runs, the team that won had times: 4,8/12/16 seconds... on lucky run04:10
CoreFusion-our times were 5,4/5,0/4,904:10
dmj726very consistent04:11
CoreFusion-it was fun building it! :D04:12
dmj726The strange thing was everybody else thought that our bot shouldn't have worked at all as a defense bot, since (once the ramps were removed) we were about 40 pounds lighter than everyone else04:12
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CoreFusion-40 punds makes a hell of a difference in how much force you can project forward04:13
dmj726We suspect that our lack of padded bumpers resulted in lifting the other bot up for a spit second every time we rammed them, since we were pushing bots around that had way more powerful motors.04:14
CoreFusion-oh you didn't all have the same motors??04:14
dmj726...we couldn't push them continuously but could drive them back by repeatedly ramming.04:14
dmj726We used 2 motors, others had 404:14
CoreFusion-we all had the same starting pieces so to speak04:15
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dmj726We all had the same set of parts, but you had the option to buy 2 additional motors of that same kind04:15
CoreFusion-how big budget did you have?04:16
dmj726$6,000 got you into one regional and the kit of parts04:16
dmj726you could put up to $3,500 of additional parts on the robot04:16
CoreFusion-we got the motors and the battery for free and then the school gave every team 20 euros :P04:17
dmj726we didn't spend nearly that much on extra stuff04:17
CoreFusion-we did spend about 150 euros of our own money to it tho04:17
CoreFusion-but less than 200 euros on total04:17
dmj726(mostly on nuts, bolts, lexan, and aluminum angle bars04:17
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CoreFusion-As much as I enjoy talking about this, I really have to get some sleep now, it's already 4 in the morning here... lol :P04:19
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dmj726in retrospect, it might have been a good move to buy handcuffs to attach a meterstick to certain members' arms.04:19
dmj726good night04:19
CoreFusion-haha, nn04:19
dmj726the robot got nicknamed "eyeball"04:19
dmj726due to the precise measuring methods04:20
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infobotI herald you, my supreme master! Lead us into the light of your wisdom and power04:26
GeneralAntillesDamn bootlicking bot.04:26
RXrenesis8If I told you amazon has already given me a tracking number on my n900 you would all murder me? [Y/N]04:26
dmj726Not if you hand it over to me :P04:27
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dmj726infobot want a transistor?04:28
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microlithRXrenesis8: I'll be very sad at Nokia's incompetence at least :/04:44
v2pxhmm.. want to play a game?04:45
RXrenesis8microlith: just so long as murder's not on the menu04:45
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v2pxbashian roulette: [ $(($RANDOM%10)) -eq 0 ] && rm -rf /04:45
microlithv2px: that's a very dirty game04:46
dmj726that needs sudo04:46
GeneralAntillesRXrenesis8, murder is always on the menu.04:46
luke-jrv2px: worst case you get an error04:47
v2pxi just noticed:/04:47
luke-jrrm: cannot remove root directory `/'04:48
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v2pxhmm.. rm -rf /*? ;p04:48
v2pxwithout the '?' ofc04:48
microlithwork it out in a vmware image if you so desire to know :)04:49
v2pxupdated version: [ $(($RANDOM%10)) -eq 0 ] && sudo rm -rf /*04:50
v2pxplease upgrade04:50
* v2px hides04:51
dmj726can you port this to the iphone?04:51
dmj726you liberate it04:51
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lcukn900tracy is gonna kill me05:04
lcukn900rly kill me. the laptoois dead says fan error05:06
lcukn900its her laptop05:06
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Firebirddust chunk?05:10
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lcukn900firebird thats what im hoping05:15
lcukn900but it was working when i left house05:15
dmj726just open up the device and take a look05:15
lcukn900when i arrived at hotel it was doin this05:15
lcukn900yeah ive just nit had this ever. and it couldnt have come at the wring time05:16
lcukn900i just spent a day n a bit getting it working05:17
lcukn900excuse typing n900 + beer isnt great combination05:18
dmj726use an iphone...made for the mentally impaired05:18
lcukn900but i cant draw with iphone05:19
lcukn900i am more refined and use a pen05:19
dmj726...then get apple to provide a resistive iphone!05:19
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lcukn900i believe the newton was05:20
dmj726now introducing...the newton 3gs05:20
lcukn900i have 3.5g here05:21
dmj726wait, you mean the iphone isn't 3.5 g?05:21
lcukn900and the nokia is more open05:21
lcukn9003.5g network05:21
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lcukn900whatever that means05:21
dmj726I'm far more interested in in the n900 than any apple device05:21
lcukn900it would be interesting to see maemo on apple hw tho05:22
dmj726I'm up for having maemo spread to more hw05:23
lcukn900for that matter. it should be viable on any android hw too05:23
luke-jrlcukn900: that would be true if Android and Maemo were both really open as they advertise05:24
luke-jrbut neither are, so mostly hopeless :p05:24
* lcukn900 would like to see nokia devices come ouy of the box with a choice; maemo or symbian05:24
* luke-jr would prefer to see devices come out of the box blank, with source code and hardware documentation on a CD05:25
lcukn900bah luke, at leat in maemo the toolkit choice is left to the implimentor05:25
luke-jrlcukn900: huh?05:25
luke-jrMaemo is a specific combination of software.05:25
lcukn900android ui = whatever java thing, iphone ui = whatever apple thing, maemo ui = gtk=qt=enlightenment,dos,liq* etc05:27
luke-jrlcukn900: if you changed Maemo from Hildon, it would no longer be Maemo05:28
lcukn900but you can run non hildon apps happily05:29
luke-jryou can? :)05:29
luke-jrlast I checked Maemo abused the RAM too much to make running other apps practical05:29
lcukn900better than any other platform05:30
lcukn900its impossible realistically on other devices05:30
luke-jrKDE 4 + Arora performs better than Maemo :p05:30
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lcukn900kde runs on maemo05:30
lcukn900whats the last gtk app you saw running on iphone05:31
luke-jrI've never seen an iphone period.05:31
luke-jrand I don't see what any of this has to do with putting Maemo on Android devices05:32
lcukn900maemo os on other devices is a good thing05:33
lcukn900most likely will be mer but you get the idea05:33
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antonfhi all, I did not find a way to checkout the source code of maemo in, is maemo source opened currently ?05:53
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luke-jrantonf: Maemo has never been open. Only sub-components thereof are.06:01
luke-jrthose components are scattered06:01
luke-jrNokia-originating ones are probably either on gitorious or maemo garage06:02
antonfsigh, that's breaking GPL06:02
luke-jrantonf: GPL does not infect mere aggregation.06:02
luke-jrNokia is to my knowledge currently in compliance with the GPL.06:03
luke-jrI'm relatively sure they have source packages the same place their binaries are.06:03
luke-jrbut usually when you want source, you want access to the SCM06:03
luke-jrnot sure where you'd find fremantle src pkgs06:05
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antonfluke-jr, ok, understand, thanks.06:12
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microlithsomeone needs to scrub t.m.o with fire06:18
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* CoreFusion- decided to stay up through the night to correct his day-night-rythm...06:39
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sp3000hmm, is it a sign that your stomach doesn't like something when you lose it on the wall07:13
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sp3000I could be mistaken, it might be just jomping for joy07:15
sp3000jumping even07:15
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sp3000how annoying07:15
dmj726What do people think of the chances for adding feautres to the default camera app?07:18
ShadowJKslim :)07:18
dmj726hmm...think it would be better to produce an alternative camera app?07:20
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luke-jrdmj726: so do it07:42
luke-jrit's just v4l2 after all07:42
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dmj726I'm kinda thinking of doing it.07:49
dmj726Though I am a bit concerned about putting my finger in too many pots.07:49
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shuduohi, anyone know where is libprofile-dev's source code or it is not an open source package?08:00
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mfinkleanyone find gdb-server for maemo 5?08:04
mfinkleso I can run it on device08:04
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johnxdmj726, why not adapt one of the maemo4 camera apps?08:05
johnxexample code + mostly written UI = win?08:06
dmj726didn't know those exist08:06
johnxoff the top of my head: "camera" and "gps camera" and "video camera" :)08:06
johnx(not exact names, void where prohibited)08:06
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recalcati__good morning08:12
johnxmornin' recalcati__08:13
recalcati__hi johnx: could be nice, only for testing purspose, using 89ccbd14fe8c0e6b0fefcca2151da28d98088bf5   ?08:13
recalcati__I need linux input event08:13
dmj726just see the one gps-camera08:13
johnxrecalcati__, sorry. I don't understand...08:14
recalcati__I could port linux input event from 4.6 stable to 4.5.2, but, if it is stable enough, I jump to 89ccbd14fe8c0e6b0fefcca2151da28d98088bf508:14
johnxI don't know any Qt, so I don't know08:15
johnxdmj726, here's videocamera:
johnxthis may also be interesting:
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johnxcoming from work today it's readily apparent why open source software has the potential to be better than closed source/proprietary code08:31
fernando_once again open source saved the day?08:31
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johnxnah, it's just that after seeing this PHP someone had written and trying to make a (really!) minor tweak, it was immediately apparent that if this ever got in front of a group of 10 or so people, someone would rewrite it out of pity08:33
dmj726open source saving the day is risking becoming passe to me...since it's becoming an everyday occurence.08:33
dmj726Yeah, I've heard horror stories about the things that happen in closed projects08:33
johnxI know a better way to do the needed task in *bash* than was done in PHP with the assistance of several support libraries08:34
johnxto generalize a bit: if you had 4 different potential email messages to send, each with an HTML version and a text version, would you pull the message in from a .html file on the system? or would you directly assign it to a variable inside the php script itself?08:35
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dmj726How about 400 consecutive if statements?08:53
* RST38h facepalms at PHP coders.08:53
dmj726actually those were in Visual Basic08:54
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johnxRST38h, there's one in particular. :) impressively, he actually makes a much better manager than a programmer and managed to hire two good PHP programmers and get out of the role himself :)08:55
dmj726good for him08:56
johnxgood for me too, who occasionally ends up poking at bugs in the codebase. From what I can tell, the thing I was looking at today is older than our SVN repository08:57
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dmj726I heard stories of coders on proprietary projects hacking around the vcs commit system to avoid code review08:58
RST38hjohnx: That is not surprising08:58
RST38hjohnx: A lot of managers are like that. As long as they are smart enough not to go into technical details deep enough, they are ok08:59
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johnxRST38h, yup. he's also gotten better at programing over the years, and it's crazy to think he was doing the job of our whole IT/development staff on his own for quite a while...but some of that old code is still ... uhm... very creative09:01
johnxdmj726, not much formal review here. that would require specs and someone to spend time reviewing the code09:02
dmj726this was a major project, dealing with a lot of low level system internals09:03
johnxlow level VB? let me guess: did it have inline assembly?09:04
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dmj726Two separate stories.  Apparently the programmer in question ended up destroying their svn in the process.09:04
* dmj726 did the 400 if statements when he was very young.09:05
dmj726...there were also many other horror stories about bad programming practices in this organization.09:06
dmj726...most of which I have never seen in any FOSS project I've been involved in.09:06
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johnxeven when the incentive is there in FOSS projects, there are a lot of eyes looking at code (if the project is big enough)09:07
dmj726Yeah, even the one man projects have a little more incentive to have good code09:09
johnxself imposed deadlines, passion to begin with, pride/embarassment09:09
dmj726I certainly wouldn't open source my earliest code for that reason.09:10
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dmj726Of course my current code is far better :)09:16
johnxI should replace that hunk of php with some bash that does the same thing :>09:16
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lardmanis gst_camerabin in one of the repos somewhere?09:49
lardmanhmm, plugins bad perhaps09:49
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lardmanhmm, pkg-config for gstreamer-0.10 doesn't supply any -L data.....09:59
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lardmanah, I need to choose gstreamer-plugins-bad-0.1010:00
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lardmanaargh, why does pkg-config --libs gstreamer-plugins-bad-0.10 not supply a -L path at all!?10:08
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lardmanhmm, what is the standard method of getting an app to use a library which is apparently not in LD_LIBRARY_PATH?10:22
lardmane.g. one which is in /usr/lib/gstreamer-0.10/10:22
ensishouldnt LD_LIBRARY_PATH address that exactly?10:23
ensii.e. libraries in non-standard locations10:23
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lardmandunno, perhaps10:25
lardmanbut then I'd need to call my binary from a script10:25
lardmanI can't believe all gst apps have this problem, really10:27
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ensiyou  have plugins in this path?10:29
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ensii have done work with gstreamer but it was few years ago already so i've forgotten most of it already which is a shame because Gstreamer is one of the saner frameworks on linux10:29
ensibut iirc you can pass a path to the library when dealing with gstreamer10:29
lardmanyeah all the plugins are installed in that path, with not many symlinked into /use/lib10:31
lardmanso to compiled, curiously, I have to explicitly supply that path to the linker (I think the pkg-config file ought to do that really)10:31
lardmanbut at run time they are not found10:32
ensiwhat are you doing?10:32
ensitry something like10:32
lardmanpackaging up my barcode scanner10:32
ensigst-inspect /opt/mypath/somelib.so10:32
lardmanI know the plugins are valid as I can link against them10:33
lardmanI'm using them rather than writing one10:33
ensiyou link against plugins?10:33
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ensiare you writing an application?10:34
lardmanyes, this is an application10:34
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lardmanwhich uses the camera10:34
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lardmanmorning tekojo10:36
tekojomorning lardman10:36
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tekojoflaky wlan here, apparently threw me out while I was having coffee10:36
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lardmanhmm, so if I start my app from a shell script, so I can alter LD_LIBRARY_PATH so that the gst plugins can be found, does that break the taskbar, etc., as the names in the .desktop file, etc., don't match any more10:43
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tekojolardman what are you trying now?10:44
lardmanjust trying to get mbarcode packaged up and in the repo10:44
lardmanbut not having much luck with it finding the gstreamer plugins10:45
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tekojodo you really need to alter path?10:45
lardmanpreviously I was linking against libgdigicam, but that's apparently not available in the repo and I didn't want to push it myself10:45
lardmantekojo: the plugins live in /usr/lib/gstreamer-0.10/10:45
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tekojolibdigicam not available? need to check up on that (or danielwilms could do that :-)10:47
lardmanit's on the devices, but not visible in any of the repos I can see10:47
lardmanmorning danielwilms10:48
danielwilmsmorning lardman10:48
danielwilmsgive me a moment...I will check that10:48
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danielwilmslardman, right now the binaries gdigicam are not part of the SDK but you could build it with the sources...there is a good chance that we could add the binaries too...I will let you know10:58
ensilardman: but you dont need to link against the plugins, just gst framework :)10:58
danielwilms*could add it to the binaries10:58
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lardmanI've built it from git, but if I want to push mbarcode to extras-devel, I'll need it available somewhere10:58
danielwilmsahh ok10:59
lardmanensi: yeah, but I do need to link against the plugin otherwise I get undefined symbol errors10:59
lardmandanielwilms: is there any reason it's not in the repo? It is on the devices after all11:00
ensilardman: umh, i dont get this. you're writing an application, you cannot (or are not supposed) to access the plugin directly via its internal interface :p11:00
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lardmanensi: hmm, I need to use the photography interface, so I presumed I should link against the camerabin plugin which provides the fn in question. I so also link against the main gstreamer lib as I use that too11:01
rektidewhats hte open source maemo5 called again?11:01
infobotwell, mer is, or on #mer11:01
rektidesome effort to bootstrap maemo using11:01
danielwilmslardman I'm trying to figure out, what the reason is, why it is not in there...might be just a mistake, then we will add it there...11:01
lardmandanielwilms: cool, thanks11:02
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wazdheya all11:06
lardmanhey wazd11:07
alteregofacebook plugin for XBox is a bit naff.11:07
alteregoAnd it's a shame the plugin isn't capable of playuing music whilst you're doing other stuff.11:07
johnxalso naff: they dropped the price used "banned" xboxes through the floor ... but it's also impossible to run homebrew on the consoles those same consoles that have the latest kernel :|11:08
alteregoPoor design :(11:08
alteregojohnx: yeah, that's a bit crap.11:08
alteregoCan you not clone the drives some how?11:08
johnxI think the kernel is in firmware this time11:08
alteregoAh, right.11:08
johnx(also: WTH was I trying to type up there?!)11:09
lardmanjohnx: in rom iirc from mgedmin's post yesterday11:09
dmj726what's the point of a device with no homebrew?11:09
alteregoThat thought did just occur to me, still, I'm happy with my XBox just running as it's supposed to.11:09
alteregoI see little point in turning it into a linux workstation as my workstation is sitting right next to it ^.^11:09
johnxmy wii doesn't have quite the amount of kick I'd like it to have under linux11:09
dmj726particularly one with no homebrew and no networking11:09
lardmanjohnx: did you read that wikipedia article on 17 ways MS went wrong with xbox security?11:09
johnxI'd love to run canola and use a wiimote on a decent tv connected machine11:09
johnxlardman, the first xbox, right?11:10
lardmanyou talking 360?11:10
johnxthey just banned a whole bunch of modded consoles, and apparently they're going used for like $40 USD11:11
lardmanoh wow11:11
lardmanis the mod not reversible then?11:11
johnxthe mod may be reversible, but the banning is not11:11
lardmanah right11:11
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johnxor rather, the circumstances under which you could get around the ban are pretty crazy11:12
dmj726...banning consoles is pretty harsh11:12
dmj726You know what would be a great hack?11:12
dmj726Take all those modded consoles and build a service they could connect to.11:13
alteregoYeah, policing hackers should be by a crack squad of FBI agents :)11:13
lardmanah, look at the time, got to go to work, bbiab11:13
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johnxthe ban I'm fine with, strangely. the not allowing homebrew (even if it means giving up your privilege to connect to live) is more annoying11:14
dmj726...and provide games and so forth that would run on the modded consoles for that network.11:14
johnxyeah, but again: no homebrew11:14
johnxneed that as the first stepping stone. without it, grander dreams are just that11:14
dmj726...not with the default OS11:15
johnxer, wait, so you want to make licensed games that people with modded consoles could buy?11:15
dmj726either buy or get free, probably a mix11:15
dmj726wait a minute...this isn't an original concept11:16
johnxnot 100% sure on this, but doesn't all xbox360 inet multiplayer stuff happen through live?11:16
johnxso, the first step is homebrew11:16
dmj726And I just realized where I got that idea11:16
dmj726It's the xnet11:17
dmj726from Cory Doctorow's little brother.11:17
dmj726that being the title11:17
johnxthere's been lots of similar ideas before as well11:17
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alteregoThe N900 isn't on
dmj726WoG on xbox 360 anyone?11:18
dmj726Can you install Linux on the 360?11:19
johnxdmj726, nope. the summer update blocks homebrew11:19
johnxthat's what I was lamenting earlier :)11:19 you can't even wipe it completely?11:19
johnx"wipe" it?11:20
dmj726overright the OS?11:20
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johnxit keeps the kernel and 1st bootloader in flash ROM, if I understand the situation correctly11:20
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dmj726so it's impossible to overwrite the bootloader?11:21
johnxthere isn't a known method right now that's available even to reasonably competent hackers it seems11:21
johnxeven the old method involved soldering it seems11:22
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dmj726hmm...makes me want the 360 less than I already did.11:29
Stskeepsget a wiimote, a n900 and drnoksnes :P11:29
dmj726would have been nice to get 600,000 potential linux consoles11:29
alteregoI'm trying to think of extra hardware, in relation to the N900, that would make it my ultimate dream device.11:30
alteregoBut even the lack of USB host mode doesn't bother me.11:30
alteregoI'm not sure I can think of anything.11:30
dmj726usb host would be handy on occasion11:30
johnxmy list is surprisingly short as well11:30
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dmj726wouldn't mind slightly larger screen11:30
alteregoI was thinking about an inbuilt projector, but really, I don't think that's a particularly important feature.11:31
dmj726more portrait mode11:31
johnxI wouldn't mind one, but I'm pretty happy in the 3.5" - 4" range11:31
alteregoWell, that's software ;)11:31
Stskeepsi still wonder if the usb host bits (not otg) are cut or not11:31
dmj726projector would be cool, but would drain battery and take up lost of space11:31
alteregoYeah, I think having an external projector, which is easily done now, is the best option.11:31
dmj726I wouldn't want much more than 4"11:31
johnxanyone tried host with 42-11 yet?11:31
tigertbuilt in projector would suck for using the device11:32
tigertyou'd shake the projected pic way too easily11:32
dmj726...yeah separate projector is better11:32
tigertas cool as it would be :)11:33
dmj726component/vga/dvi/inset better display out would be nice.11:33
alteregoYeah, though, about 6 years ago,m when I wasw dreaming of devices like this, my dream device had an inbuilt projector that auto corrected the aspect ratio depending on distance of two of the corners of the projected image, using laser distance measuring equipment :)11:33
alteregoHDMI out would be nice.11:33
dmj726number row for keyboard11:34
Stskeepshdmi is just so huge.. not sure where i would fit it on a n90011:34
alteregodmj726: software? :)11:34
dmj726portrait virt keybd that showed half the screen11:34
alteregoStskeeps: sure, some proprietary connector of course ;)11:34
Stskeepsi wouldn't mind seeing a sdio docking station or something11:35
dmj726yeah, and bundle a special cable with it.11:35
alteregoBut the OMAP in the N900 is perfectly capable of HDMI so I don't understand why they didn't do it, it'd be the killer feature that they've never done before.11:35
alteregoA natural evolution from the bad quality svideo connectivit11:36
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tbfalterego: not sure if the OMAP has the horse power to decode HDMI quality video11:36
tbfbut i am no CPU geek.11:37
alteregoMaybe not, but you can still limit the resolution, sap, 720 or something.11:37
lcukn900hey guys, n810 question.  how do i stop maps from holding screen lit?11:37
dmj726720 would be sweet11:37
alteregoAnything would be better than PAL/NTSC resolution :P11:37
alteregoEspecially when playing "Bounce: Evolution" ;)11:38
johnxalterego, IIRC, the omap3 has one hi-res digital out and one lower res tv-out11:38
alteregoHas anyone started working on any augmented reawlity apps for the N900 yet>?11:38
lcukn900the tvout at 800x480 is pretty damn sweet11:38
alteregojohnx: exactly,11:38
lcukn900is there a digital out on the n900?11:38
dmj726no digital video out11:39
lcukn900so end of discussion lol?11:39
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alteregolcukn900: I was just bringing up a few of my hardware requests ;)11:39
dmj726I don't care about improved resolution output as much as connectivity to computer monitors11:39
lcukn900ahhh i want a flying car n900 version11:39
tbflcukn900: i am also satisfied with the analog output's quality. but well, i still only have an analog tv...11:39
floriangood morning11:39
johnxlcukn900, yeah, hooks up to the LCD :P11:40
alteregoI think HDMI/DVI output would be the only one, and, to me, it's annoying because the device is capable of doing it, I can't see why they didn't just throw it in.11:40
tbf...PAL looks too horrible on LCD tv11:40
tigertStskeeps: hdmi has a mini connector type too11:40
dmj726I don't have an analog tv anymore11:40
dmj726wait...there's on in the corner of the room.11:40
tbfdmj726: poor guy11:40
lcukn900i see my n810 has finally gone dark i can walk now11:40
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alteregoI might buy a beagle board, just to act as a streaming server for the N900 ;)11:40
dmj726...I don't really use the TV in the dorm anymore11:40
tbfdmj726: well, maybe you are watching DVDs, or something :-)11:40
tigertalterego: there are a lot of things that could be "thrown in" but all that requires work and testing and sweat11:40
Stskeepstigert: ah, didn't know that11:41
alteregoMedia renderer I mean ..11:41
dmj726The computer screen is more useful11:41
dmj726...and bigger11:41
tigerteven the tv-out on my N900 is fun and useful11:41
tigertlike for playing videos pulled from youtube11:41
tigertor playing youtube directly of course :)11:42
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dmj726Hmmm...I wonder if one can output to VGA somehow11:42
tigertand for viewing photos etc11:42
dmj726my monitor does have that.11:42
alteregoSo, I'll buy a beagle board, maybe get someone to get me it for Christmas *winks at General Antilles" and build a portable HD capable UPnP media renderer for plugging into HD TV's.11:42
tbftigert: yup.11:42
alteregoThen the N900 can stream to the Beagle and I have what I want ::)11:42
johnxalterego, was thinking along similar lines, but I think it'd be pressed right up the max decoding some high bitrate 1280x720 stuff11:43
lcukn900ewww new feature on nOVER9000 tigert sweat tray just like a george foreman grill11:43
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alteregoPower consumption is becoming a major concern in my house though, laptop+workstation+TV+xbox-36011:44
alteregoI want to cut out the workstation for watching video by using a beagle board and the N90011:44
dmj726...same here...all the old boxen still in service11:44
IcanCUdoes the n900 have a front camera then can be used for video chat on skype or google talk?11:44
alteregoThe XBox is only on when I'm playing it, so I don't realy care about that.11:44
alteregoIcanCU: yes11:44
IcanCUdoes it work well?11:45
alteregoWEcanCU too!11:45
* GeneralAntilles yawns loudly.11:45
alteregoIcanCU: no idea, comparable quality to all the other Nokia front mount cameras I'd imagine.11:45
RST38halterego: disconnect AC, heater, stove, laundry, and dishwasher11:45
GeneralAntillesDamn I hate waking up early for no reason.11:45
GeneralAntillesalterego, why am I buying you a Beagle? :P11:45
RST38halterego: Then you can watch TV in peace =)11:45
alteregoGeneralAntilles: because you love me :)11:45
IcanCUwell i have an e71 but i wouldn't know how to use it11:46
IcanCUnor have i seen it being used11:46
alteregoRST38h: was that a joke about me dying? "TIP" ? ;)11:46
GeneralAntillesalterego, there's no denying that, but you may have to settle for flowers and chocolate. :D11:46
IcanCUthe front camera i mean11:46
alteregoIcanCU: fire up the camera application and get it to switch to the "secondary" camera.11:46
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IcanCUsure but it won't work with skype or google talk11:47
lcukn900damn chan11:47
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IcanCUoh well11:47
alteregoMy life is so painful right now, I'm having to code ActiveX/COM/DirectShow efilters :S11:47
dmj726that sounds awful11:47
alteregoIt's seriously stressing me out.11:47
dmj7263 things I don't want to touch with a ten foot pole11:47
GeneralAntillesAt least you have your health. *g*11:48
alteregoIT's not fun,11:48
alteregoI don't feel healthy ..11:48
johnxalterego, is coding with an 11 foot pole difficult?11:48
alteregoI feel super stressed.11:48
* johnx was always curious11:48
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RST38halterego: Well, at least you will do so watching TV and playing games on your XBox =)11:48
* RST38h cackles11:48
alteregoI might go visit the Dr, no sleep and constantly feeling like shit is not making me particularly productive.11:48
alteregoHeh, yeah.11:48
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dmj726Yeah...why are you using such awful tech?11:49
alteregoWork, why do you think :/11:49
GeneralAntillesSucker for punishment.11:49
alteregoMy job is great, up until this point.11:49
alteregoI'm hoping, they'll adopt my super-duper-gstreamer based camera control system when I've finished developing it.11:52
alteregoThen I don't have to piss around with this crap anymore.11:52
alteregoThat and the demo I'm going to knock up on the N900 ;)11:52
* GeneralAntilles loves all the people who doing Maemo demos at work.11:53
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GeneralAntillesNot enough to get them all Beagle Boards, however. *g*11:54
alteregoHahah :)11:54
alteregoAwww :P11:54
* johnx needs to demo his n900 at work actually11:55
alteregoDo you think they'll do a beagle with the new multi core cortex?11:55
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GeneralAntillesGood question for jkridner11:55
wazdlearn maemo 5 and win n90011:55
GeneralAntillesI'd bet yes, but it's gonna be a while until OMAP4 is at that point.11:56
fralsno screenprotector shipped with the n900 - new dealbreaker?11:56
wazdfrals: sure!11:56
dmj726buy one?11:56
GeneralAntillesWho's seen that 30 Rock episode?11:56
wazdfrals: nokia's so cheap11:56
fralshaha yeah11:56
alteregoWhat? There is a screen protector on the N90011:56
ensitalking about N900, how clean does the screen wipe with the cleaning cloth? At work i only got paper and its greacy as hell11:57
rangealterego: Yeah, a black one.11:57
wazdalterego: it's opaque11:57
alteregoOh ..11:57
alteregoAnd there's no protector under that protector? :)11:57
alteregoLike with the N810?11:57
GeneralAntillesJust buy a Boxwave and be done with it.11:58
dmj726wasn't the n810 one not supposed to be used as such?11:58
GeneralAntillesThe clear plastic was never meant to be used as a protector anyway.11:58
dmj726boxwave? link?11:58
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alteregoI figure, "Who cares, I'm gonna replace it in a year anyway" :P11:58
lardmanso how were the beer last night?11:59
GeneralAntillesNo N900 version out yet11:59
GeneralAntillesBut probably soon.11:59
lardmanoh, no jeremiah :(11:59
dmj726did you see the rubberized shell on ebay?11:59
lardmanwill have to wait till later for my debian challenge :)11:59
dmj7262 pieces11:59
RST38halterego: Depending on how neat your are, you may well ruin it before the year is over =)11:59
dmj726my devices tend to get pressed into service for at least 5 years.12:00
RST38hBesides, scratches are annoying, especially if you use it in places with bright spot lighting12:00
dmj726my current phone is from 2004 :P12:01
alteregoI'm pretty careful,12:01
johnxRST38h, bright lights? like the terrifying daystar?12:02
johnxheh...though actually, not seeing too much of it these days around this area12:02
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danielwilmshey lardman12:03
danielwilmsdev-package should be there now12:03
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RST38hjohnx: weirdly, sunlight does not apply =)12:06
RST38hjohnx: Whatever these nokia guys have done, it manages to hide scratches pretty well in sunlight12:07
johnxworks pretty well under flourescents, except at that "perfect" viewing angle12:07
johnxhasn't bothered me yet, and my n800 hasn't shown unreasonable screen wear either12:08
RST38hjohnx: have got fluorescents right here, right now (bright ones though), scratches do show up12:08
frals didnt know google gave the carrier adsplits :o12:08
johnxfrals, yeah, read that a bit ago. isn't that crazy?12:08
dmj726RST38h: you have scratches already?12:08
RST38hdmj726: yea, a few. It is way less easily scratched than some sites want you to believe12:09
dmj726what did you do to it?12:09
fralsits a pretty good business strategy i guess ^^12:09
RST38hdmj726: But, having said that, steel keys will still do the job12:09
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fralsseeing as the marke is exploding with android phones12:09
RST38hdmj726: Applied nails (using fingers is way unreliable) and the stylus12:09
dmj726so way more scratchable than iThingy or Droid?12:09
dmj726nails scratch it?12:10
GeneralAntillesMaemo needs more exposure12:10
RST38hdmj726: I have not used iPhone for long, and have not seend Droid yet12:10
johnxRST38h, pockets man! your pants should have two of them. categorize your items appropriately: things that scratch, things that can be scratched12:10
RST38hdmj726: not normally12:10
dmj726keys got yours?12:10
GeneralAntillesdmj726, no, nails don't scratch it.12:10
RST38hjohnx: got first scratches that way, bought a pouch12:10
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RST38hdmj726: I suspect sharp nail corners and (in one case) a stylus hit12:11
RST38hdmj726: One small comment about that my-symbian photo on tmo:12:11
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alteregoI made a pouch out of an old wetsuit12:12
RST38hdmj726: When you apply nails to a dirty screen, they leave traces that LOOK like scratches12:12
alteregoNice black neoprene :)12:12
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RST38hurgh..could have just bought a camera pouch12:12
dmj726ah...but those come off12:13
dmj726As long as they don't scratch it, nails will be used on the screen a lot12:13
dmj726You know the idiots who struggle with resistive.12:14
johnxdmj726, roofing nails? or ... ? ;)12:14
dmj726Droid did not respond to my touch for at least the first 30 seconds.12:14
dmj726finger nails ;)12:14
GeneralAntilles10 penny12:14
GeneralAntillesReverse iPhone-finger!12:14
johnxI used my nails on the screen lots. I don't really believe they're made of a harder material than the stylus12:14
dmj726Of course, I've not used either capacitive or resistive much12:15
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dmj726but the finger nail is like a nice, mini stylus12:15
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RST38hdmj726: I still think Nokia should have included the triangular thingy they included with 580012:17
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RST38hdmj726: It is ugly, weird, but useful12:17
dmj726triangular thingly?12:17
GeneralAntillesGuitar pick12:17
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RST38hplextrum or whatever12:17
* GeneralAntilles just uses his fingers.12:18
RST38hthere is a cute latin name for it12:18
bilboed-pior a nail clipper, to sharpen your nails so they act as a stylus :)12:18
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johnxfront camera? what front camera?12:25
GeneralAntillesHow about LED, proximity sensor and ambient light sensor, too?12:26
johnxis the proximity sensor separate from the light sensor?12:26
GeneralAntillesEr, yes?12:26
GeneralAntillesOtherwise there'd be faces all over that damn thing in a dark room. :P12:27
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GeneralAntillesThe proximity is a d-beam.12:27
johnxcool. I have no idea what that means, but cool12:27
dmj726why would they cover the camer?12:27
dmj726that seems incredibly stupid12:28
johnxdmj726, the better question is: why would they cover all that stuff...and leave the other side totally open?12:28
GeneralAntillesjohnx, ever used one of those synths or keyboards with the IR proximity sensor that lets you control distortion/pitch/whatever?12:28
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GeneralAntillesUsually you see them on Rolands12:28
dmj726somebody put it on upside doen?12:28
johnxGeneralAntilles, nope. music production equipment and I keep a good distance ever since the restraining order :|12:28
johnxmy artistic license was revoked. that Geneva convention has teeth man :/12:29
johnxdmj726, except there's a hole for the speaker12:29
GeneralAntillesIt's an IR LED and an IR receiver12:29
dmj726the ebay one seems better thought out12:29
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johnxGeneralAntilles, neat! can we get ranges out of that thing?12:30
dmj726can proximty sensor be used for theramin purposes perhaps12:30
GeneralAntillesI think it may start to see stuff at about the 1" range.12:30
GeneralAntillesYou can use it as a button, though.12:30
johnxit might still be fun for a game12:30
johnxmove your thumb to accelerate/brake, tilt the device to steer12:31
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GeneralAntillesProbably a bit sensitive for that.12:31
johnxan inch is a really good range12:31
GeneralAntillesRST38h, ping?12:31
johnxeven a half inch would be ok I think12:31
* johnx holds his n900 and makes zooming noises12:32
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GeneralAntillesThey use it as the fire button for Quake 3.12:32
johnxdo they involve the camera shutter button?12:33
GeneralAntillesI just wish the mouselook and accelerometer control weren't so broken.12:33
GeneralAntillesWe need to bind that half-press to F11.12:33
johnxyeah, first tablet where I want to rebind lots of stuff12:34
GeneralAntillesHaving a dedicated fullscreen button would make things much nicer.12:34
lardmandanielwilms: a belated thanks for sorting that :)12:35
johnxyup, though I'm actually torn between that and about 3 other functions12:35
crashanddieo/ GeneralAntilles lardman johnx12:35
GeneralAntillesI still can't believe nobody can enlighten us as how to go about rebinding keys in a reasonable fashion.12:35
crashanddiedanielwilms, I've heard quite a lot about you yesterday!12:36
johnxallo crashanddie12:36
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johnxGeneralAntilles, no event in xev. would you mind seeing if you get anything out of one of the eventN entries in /dev/input12:37
crashanddieI want to work for Nokia12:37
crashanddieScrew Australia, have you seen the quality of the birds at Nokia Global Marketing?12:37
crashanddieyesterday was a good evening12:38
johnxcrashanddie, geese? crows? I dunno what kind of birds are in Finland...12:38
crashanddiejohnx, gtfo12:38
wjtthe penguins-with-frickin'-lasers t-shirts are incredibly ugly12:38
crashanddieloads of interesting people, had some very good discussions, people were actually asking for our opinions which was refreshing12:38
crashanddiewjt, yeah, they were12:39
* wjt declined12:39
crashanddiewjt, so did I12:39
crashanddiewjt, did we meet?12:39
wjtthere was a nice big pile of them at the end :)12:39
crashanddieI can't believe how drunk I got12:39
lbtcrashanddie: "this thread useless w/o pics"12:40
crashanddielbt, I got pics12:40
crashanddiebut I would have to upload to flickr n shit12:40
crashanddieand I'm late for work12:40
crashanddieI got two numbers though12:40
* lbt would like to have gone... was supposed to be in Helsinki.... flights cancelled .... grr12:41
crashanddielbt, yeah, SFW, will upload tonight or something12:41
crashanddiewell, not tonight, going out with boss12:41
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johnxdmj726, yeah, and engadget called microb the "best default mobile browser" I believe12:42
dmj726so the n900 is stuck with your choice of the best browsers?12:42
dmj726darm...that's just so unbearable12:42
wjtcrashanddie: hmm, i don't think we did12:43
johnxyeah, and some neat browsers that use webkit as well12:43
lcukn900crash how was you 7am call?12:43
johnxit's pretty much winning by default and having the choice if winning slightly differently if that's your thing12:43
dmj726How is the community going to cope with getting stuck with nice gecko and webkit browsers?12:43
crashanddielcukn900, painful12:43
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* wjt should have badgered lcukn900 to introduce community people :P12:44
RST38hyes, how?12:44
crashanddielcukn900, painful to wake up, call was fine12:44
lcukn900im sat on the floor in the middle of euston station12:44
lcukn900wjt you vanished rly quick12:44
johnxdmj726, I imagine there will be endless threads complaining, until someone manages to figure something out12:44
crashanddielcukn900, did I meet wjt?12:44 get to pick how you win :P12:44
lcukn900great that u came tho :)12:44
* RST38h suddenly got a perfect idea for the N900 advertising campaign in .Ru =)12:44
dmj726People will complain about not having bad browsers12:44
lcukn900dunno seb12:44
wjtlcukn900: christian needed to catch a train in order to get back so that he could fly very early this morning12:45
johnxdmj726, maybe someone should work on that12:45
dmj726RST: do share12:45
RST38hlcuk <-- brought up the idea12:45
lcukn900yeah was a great night12:45
crashanddiewjt, I'm sebastian, Nina introduced me at the beginning, I was the only idiot who didn't talk12:45
RST38hdmj726: It requires knowing the context =)12:45
lcukn900this is so bizarre12:45
wjtcrashanddie: oh, heh :)12:45
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johnxRST38h, O_o....though actually I pretty much called it12:46
lcukn900i ha/e to give my laptop a blowjob when i get home12:46
RST38hjohnx: well it was somewhat obvious, the question is when though12:47
lcukn900it wont boot, after spending 3 days trying to get scratchbox happily on it, i hope a delivery comes soon12:47
StskeepsRST38h: heh, wonder if that will cause some severe slappings12:47
dmj726the rumors are true...Maemo causes the end of the world12:47
RST38hSts: of course it will, mass corporal punishment etc12:47
Stskeepsyes, we get year of the linux on cellphones when the world ends12:47
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johnxMaemo on the LHC in 2012! w00!12:48
KhertanHello !12:48
dmj726Sounds like Maemo will be getting a rather nice slice of the cell phone market12:48
lcukn900maemo everywhere12:48
RST38hTSHIRT: "I was promised the End of the World and all I got is an end of crappy Symbian"12:49
KhertanLHC ? Large Hadron Collider ?12:49
viggiRST38h: :D12:49
johnxStskeeps, if you get a vendor on the hook about a Mer-based touch interface to a large physics experiment, might want to double check for any potential bugs  :)12:49
crashanddieOH, and I managed to take a picture of the N92012:49
crashanddielcukn900, remember that one? Shoved in a corner?12:49
johnxKhertan, you missed context: Maemo replaces Symbian on N series devices by 2012, coinciding with the "end of the world"12:50
lcukn900news to me12:50
Khertanjohnx: ah ok ;.... it s better now :)12:50
Stskeepscrashanddie: running Bora 2010HE? :P12:50
KhertanMaemo replaces Symbian on N series devices by 2012 <<< it s a good news12:50
dmj726good riddance to Symbian12:50
RST38hKhertan: Depends on who you are12:50
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Khertanso will be able to use Maemo on all new nSerie for 12 Months12:51
johnxyeah, none too soon12:51
RST38hKhertan: A lot of N-series folks are probably less than happy right now12:51
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KhertanRST38h: it s good ... as i'm me12:51
lcukn900hi khertan12:51
KhertanN-series folks << there is more than ten ?12:51
Khertanhi lcukn90012:51
dmj726the name was mentioned in my OS class once...the professor made a funny face and there was a sound of disgust in his voice in response12:51
* RST38h sincerely hopes Maemo Devices will not start branching the platform for every new device though12:52
RST38hFor their own good12:52
dmj726Linux did not elicit the same response12:52
wazdhello boring designs! :D12:52
dmj726Keep maemo as Maemo...just add drivers12:52
johnxI love engadget commenters who don't even read the headline12:52
RST38hShould have mentioned iPhone and apply the silver nails while he is dazed12:52
johnxhello wazd ... oh wait :)12:53
wazdjohnx: no, I mean 800x480 touch screens :)12:53
Khertantrolly news :
johnxwazd, Maemo5 should be a lot more scalable than Maemo4 at least12:54
Khertanwebos is a piece of shit12:54
RST38hKhertan: That would be the end of Palm12:54
johnxthere's web os tech that could be interesting12:54
KhertanRST38h: it s already the end :)12:54
RST38hjohnx: No.12:54
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Khertanjohnx: no12:54
johnxpretty similar to Nokia's web runtime, isn't it?12:55
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Khertanjohnx: no12:55
RST38hjohnx: HTML-based desktops have been around for years, none of them caught up12:55
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johnxah, nevermind then :)12:55
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wazdhtml os? no  way :D12:55
johnxat least they have interesting designs12:55
RST38hjohnx: I do not think web runtime is the same, it is much more limited in scope12:55
Khertanjohnx: the nokia webruntime is well writed12:55
johnxwazd, that's web os :)12:55
dmj726what the heck is a webruntime?12:55
RST38hjohnx: yea, the idea is interesting12:55
Khertanjohnx: not the palm one12:55
RST38hjohnx: but the only widely used implementation is iGoogle12:55
RST38hjohnx: web runtime is more like that windows desktop enhancements where you write widgets in js12:56
Khertandmj726: a dummy browser with proprietary api to call some hardware directly12:56
dmj726‘Maemo Select’, the current community-portal for Maemo applications, will initially run alongside Nokia’s Ovi store, which is due to launch for the N900 via a software update next month.  However, in the longer term it too will be retired leaving only the Ovi Store as the official Nokia source for free and paid applications promoted on Symbian and Maemo devices.12:56
lcukn900its a spider on a train12:56
dmj726this worries me12:56
Khertandmj726:  ?12:56
RST38hUnless Ovi Store dies before they phase Maemo Select out12:56
dmj726I don't want to be forced to use the ovi store for my FOSS12:56
Khertandmj726: where did you get this troll ?12:56
johnxdmj726, yeah. me too :/12:56
wazdwatching now some stuff on TV bout fake money12:57
dmj726found that via slashgear12:57
Khertandmj726: look like a fake rumors12:57
johnxwazd, some guy here printed $7 million with an ink jet printer on news print12:57
dmj726looks like this might be the source of the 2012 switch12:57
wazdI remember when I came to the bank to pay for appartments, gave the girl 1k rubles, she checked it under UV rays and revealed big fat BRIBE label :D12:58
Stskeepsnah.. TMO is the source12:58
Stskeepswazd: and you got arrested? :P12:58
Khertandmj726: everybody talk about 2012, but don't know12:58
wazdStskeeps: no, cause I was loling :D12:59
Khertandmj726: this is true for predicted disaster, but also for nokia :)12:59
johnxKhertan, the guy at reallymobile claims the source is the N900 london meet-up12:59
johnxtime will tell if it's true12:59
* RST38h wants an E-series Maemo device =)12:59
Khertanjohnx: yep he claim12:59
Khertanjohnx: but we will see :)12:59
glass_johnx: maemo related folk have been saying this year+3 for dropping symbian for few years in few places now12:59
RST38hwazd: So, who bribed you? =)12:59
johnxglass_, first I heard it, but I figured it was coming13:00
glass_and "n-series" is just a naming convention13:00
GeneralAntillesI have to laugh at Engadget calling S60 5th "mature"13:00
RST38hwazd: Has military fallen THAT low now? =)13:00
GeneralAntilles"Geriatric" is the word they're looking for.13:00
glass_johnx: i heard it circa 3 years ago first :D13:00
johnxglass_, yeah sounds like splitting the current N to become X for symbian and N for Maemo13:00
* lcukn900 is still on the floor13:00
lcukn900online as it happens13:00
RST38hjohnx: yea, that looks like the plan13:01
johnxlcukn900, can you confirm it then?13:01
lcukn900confirm what13:01
lcukn900i deny everything13:01
lcukn900i wasnt there13:01
* GeneralAntilles really hates Engadget.13:01
lcukn900and i was on a different chan and until xchat is fixed i cannot scrollbakc13:02
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dmj726perhaps maemo select will disappear and extras will be featured prominently?13:02
johnxGeneralAntilles, but their commenters are priceless. the troll/honest-comment ratio is beyond any theoretical maximum I've ever seen13:02
johnxI mean, on the latest nokia/maemo/symbian story, one guy didn't even *read* the *headline* he was commenting on13:03
lcukn900general, you hate everything13:03
lcukn900what do you like about maemo etc13:03
johnxhow do people like that not get lost inside their own house?13:03
GeneralAntilleslcukn900, hardly.13:03
johnxlcukn900, so where are you on the floor of?13:04
glass_johnx: maybe they do get lost inside their own house, thus they're online pretty much13:04
lcukn900euston station concourse13:04
lcukn900waiting to find platform number13:04
johnxglass_, until that fateful day when they stick a fork into a wall socket?13:04
TomaszDanyone has any idea how to get the AC3 codec onto the N900 so that the media player supports it? I'm getting kind of tired having to transcode audio to MP313:04
lcukn900i keep wanting to stand at the front and get everyone to smile13:05
lcukn900so i can take a pic13:05
johnxlcukn900, ok, stop what you're doing, go to the london N900 meetup, and ask the guys there if they're dropping symbian for maemo on the N series by 201213:05
lcukn900they are all looking the right way13:05
lcukn900johnx i ws at the meetup13:05
glass_johnx: bbq-fork is easier to stick in13:05
glass_regular forks are hard :\13:06
lcukn900and it makes no sense to drop symbian13:06
johnxglass_, I think we need to have outlets designed to accept forks more easily...13:06
lcukn900seriously why is that even a consideration?  i would however love for nokia devices to choose os when you open the box13:06
lcukn900bbl platform 213:07
johnxalright, so then you heard differently than this other guy who claims to have been at the meetup and says that Nokia announced they were dropping symbian on Nseries13:07
dmj726hmm...I wonder if we might see the current "linux" smartphone OSes become more gnu-like in order to decrease fragmentation/marketshare issues13:07
johnxGNU-like? hmm?13:07
johnxyou mean more interoperable?13:08
dmj726easier for app developers by way of becoming like say...debian13:08
glass_lcukn900: maemo in it's current state couldn't work as os for majority of current n-series devices13:08
dmj726(or insert desktop distro here)13:08
johnxdmj726, no. they're moving away from that13:08
* GeneralAntilles thinks he can actually swing the Barcelona weekend.13:09
lcukn900glass yet13:09
johnxdmj726, Maemo4 was more desktop-like than Maemo5 in a lot of ways13:09
dmj726...not just refering to nokia13:09
johnxdmj726, android won't. limo won't13:09
dmj726(and I'm not talking ui here)13:09
johnxweb os is so far away from desktop linux it's not worth considering13:10
glass_lcukn900: what i could believe is that there's plans to use maemo more in high end, but n-series doesn't mean high end13:10
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danielwilmscrashanddie come??13:10
danielwilmscrashanddie sorry for the late reply :) had lunch ;)13:11
wjtlcukn900: a first-run screen to choose between Symbian and Maemo?13:11
johnxandroid doesn't even use the same libc as maemo or desktop linux. who knows about web os at all. and as for limo, their previous examples were pretty locked down and also limited market. maybe that will change, but I don't really believe it13:12
GeneralAntillesLiMo is scary.13:12
dmj726just trying to figure out how the smartphone market will trend with all these competitors13:12
dmj726why scary?13:12
johnxs/scary/pathetic/ maybe?13:13
glass_joke likely pathetic13:13
GeneralAntillesjohnx, mostly pathetic, yeah.13:13
GeneralAntillesBut talk about leveraging Linux for evil.13:13
johnxor maybe scary like a sack of body parts in a paper bag13:13
dmj726what's evil about it?13:13
johnxheh. this is like the opposite of leverage13:13
GeneralAntillesdmj726, take Android, but 100 times worse.13:14
johnxthis is like building a lever and hitting yourself with it while telling people what an awesome time you're having13:14
GeneralAntillesPay-to-play open source abuse.13:14
dmj726so Maemo >> LiMo13:14
glass_dmj726: if you got no access to anything, what fun is it that it runs linux?13:14
dmj726not very...FOSS doesn't help me much with my TV set13:15
johnxabout as much fun as a sony COM1/COM2 :)13:15
glass_could run rtos or ericcson os or whatever and it would be just as useful for th euser13:15
johnxmy initial reaction against the GPL3 was that it was pretty over-the-top anti-corporate...but I'm beginning to change my tune a little bit13:15
johnxnot fully decided, but it's certainly an interesting debate13:16
dmj726RMS can sometimes be scarily precient13:16
johnxand sometimes just scarily anti-social :)13:17
johnxreally hard to figure out what's happening on which day13:17
GeneralAntillesjohnx, it'd be nice if respecting the spirit of things were more popular. ;)13:17
lcukn900howtohack tab complete on xchat13:18
johnxGeneralAntilles, yeah. then we'd all be using BSD and Mac OS X would be a free layer that sat on top13:18
lcukn900on n90013:18
dmj726webos apps vs linux apps for palm's OS?...strange13:18
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lcukn900mmmm blt13:20
lcukn900i even had pineapple strawberry n yogurt breakfast13:20
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* GeneralAntilles can't even begin to imagine what Nokia would do with Palm.13:21
johnxGeneralAntilles, keep their designers, and get some people making sure that webkit behaves well13:22
LynoureI'd love Nokia buying Palm13:22
johnxand also: free "wireless" charger with every Nokia phone :)13:22
* GeneralAntilles wonders what kind of $$$ numbers are involved.13:22
fralsMake pretty little babies!13:22
* Lynoure is in process of moving from Palm Treo 650 to N90013:23
GeneralAntillesThey're just buying them for their Folio.13:23
lcukn900are they buying them? or is this a little rumour?13:23
dmj726How about use that billion in cash for anti-patent lobbying?13:23
* GeneralAntilles wants more Maemo devices.13:24
dmj726would solve the entire patent portfolio issue and nobody else is going to spend that much lobbying against them13:24
lcukn900backwards train is odd13:24
lcukn900im gonna spend 2 hours reversing13:25
derfdmj726: Nobody is interested in solving that problem for their competitors.13:25
ShadowJK"First regional Maemo Developer Days starting in Copenhagen in 2 hours." <- eh?13:25
lcukn900its a long day lol13:25
johnxderf, except Microsoft :)13:25
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dmj726hehe...just saying it could end up being a better option than buying palm for their patents...not that it would be done13:26
dmj726M$ isn't in the patent ending mindset13:26
johnxdmj726, oh, it definitely is13:26
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dmj726M$ wants to end patents?13:27
johnxsoftware patents at least13:27
dmj726software patents I mean13:27
dmj726I'll be glad to join M$ in the fight against software patents.13:27
Shapeshifterisn't this rumour based on the fact that they want to buy "Plum"13:28
Shapeshifterwhich has nothing to do with Palm.13:28
dmj726i think it is13:28
ShapeshifterAnd as such is a stupid rumour.13:28
johnxdmj726, can't find my source...starting to doubt my memory now :/13:28
fralsWhats "plum"? :P13:28
dmj726Gates was against them in the early 90s.13:28
fralsExcept the fruit.. ;P13:29
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derfBecause he didn't have any.13:29
Veggendm: that was before he had his own portfolio built up.13:29
VeggenNow, he's big into patent fud himself.13:29 he's the established player13:30
ShapeshifterPlum is
Shapeshifter and here's that nokia bought them.13:30
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fralsAh, thanks13:31
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johnxwow. this is really weird. I swear I heard MS come out against software patents at some point. probably when they were being sued13:41
johnxobviously I took it to mean more than it actually did13:41
dmj726this is the same company brandishing them at us13:42
johnxyeah, but they have lots of money to lose too13:42
johnxthey're the cash cow that every little patent troll comes after13:43
dmj726and a big portfolio that lets them crosslicense13:43
johnxnot always13:43
dmj726of course there are the trolls13:43
johnxpatent trolls aren't interested in cross-licensing. they don't do anything except sue13:43
johnxeasy to avoid patents when that's all you do13:43
Shapeshifterm$ recently patented sudo13:45
ShapeshifterI found that hilarious.13:45
dmj726that'll hold up in court13:45
dmj726even when they mention user's still just gksudo13:45
dmj726wait...hasn't linux had that for years?13:46
gnutonlooks that Ms sudo works different from our sudo.13:46
dmj726it works shittier and is called UAC13:46
Shapeshifter"Oh, good grief! This concept goes back way past BSD, back to the mainframe days. (See, for example, the XDS Sigma 7 UTS Reference manual (1971), Appendix B, the listing for monitor error code 09, subcode 00: "The user privilege level was not high enough to allow issuing a direct device OPEN".)"13:46
Shapeshifterthe concept has been around for decades.13:46
ShapeshifterAnd now m$ "invented" it13:46
dmj726...I was referring to just the gksudo bits13:47
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dmj726that said...sudo is so old it's not even patentable13:47
gnutongoshawkATPoliMi: Pol MI.. Politecnico di Milano?13:47
Shapeshiftergksudo has been written around 1980, yes.13:47
goshawkATPoliMignuton: yes13:47
gnutongoshawkATPoliMi: :D Nice to see anther italian here :D13:47
goshawkATPoliMi:) room T0.1 right now ;)13:48
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* Shapeshifter wants a UK key layout not this lame QWERTZ keyboard with just two arrow keys. Will use the UK mapping anyway.13:55
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JaffaMorning, all13:55
dmj7262 arrow keys?13:55
lardmanhi Jaffa13:55
ShapeshifterMoin, moin.13:55
Termanagood morning Jaffa13:56
Shapeshifterdmj726: most of europe will have only left and right, no up and down.13:56
dmj726heh...that sucks13:56
Shapeshifterisntead there will be buttons for é and the likes.13:56
lardmanJaffa: I hear you lot were out on the lash last night?13:56
dmj726would make emulators and games harder13:56
lbthi Jaffa13:56
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Shapeshifterdmj726: that's why many will probably use a UK/US layout.13:56
dmj726yeah...and games could theoretically just pretend that the changed keys are arrows13:57
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dmj726I suppose Europeans in countries with more characters than English has are used to switching layouts?13:57
Shapeshifterdmj726: well sure, the keyboard is the same, just the layout is different13:57
Shapeshifterdmj726: well usually there are enough keys on a keyboard to use our own layouts. I use the Swiss-german layout all the time.13:58
dmj726I did find the keyboards in Spain much better for writing Spanish than the US ones13:58
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Shapeshifterbut on an n900 I can gladly do without keys for äöü and such.13:58
dmj726(that statement should not be controversial)13:59
Jaffalardman: There was *some* lashage, indeed.13:59
dmj726I've heard that programmers like English keyboards.13:59
lardmanJaffa: Just realised I could probably have made it, had I realised, as my wife is in London today14:00
lardmanah well14:00
kirmadmj726: switching whole keyboard layouts or just minor reinterpretation of layouts for things like games?14:00
tbfShapeshifter: press Fn+Ctrl, in the popup select a combining char from third row. finally press the letter14:00
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kirmaI certainly would say that switching layouts, especially to unmarked ones, is not something that regular users do "natively"14:00
tbfShapeshifter: "u gives you ü14:01
dmj726how about for games...will this phase regular users?14:01
Shapeshiftertbf: well, I'd xmodmap some fn+something key to ¨ so that typing ¨u will give me ü like on a normal keyboard.14:01
tbfdmj726: ^^14:01
kirmaoh well, people might be better to adapt different keyboard variants on specific devices, though.14:01
Shapeshifterand I don't need é è and à.14:01
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tbfShapeshifter: all "André" you know will be pissed :-D14:02
dmj726I've seen keys that change their labels depending on the orientation of the device and the application.14:02
kirmamuch bigger issue than the keyboard layout in my opinion, regarding games, is that there's no really practical key input on the device at all (at least d-pad), and the situation is reasonably similar on most other devices too14:03
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kirmasomething like two keys on each side of keyboard plus accelerator control seems most reasonable in the case of n900 to me14:03
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kirmaor single-finger tapping and some acceleration sensor work on the screen only14:04
Termanadmj726: Isn't that done with E-Ink? I think I've seen it done on a Motorola mobile phone...14:04
Shapeshifterkirma: someone had the clever idea of putting a "dpad" on the screen in the lower right corner. I think that could work well with many emulators at least as these often don't use the widescreen layout so there will be space on the left and right anway.14:04
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dmj726no if only there were a way to add a dpad and a few buttons14:04
kirmashapeshifter: might work.14:05
dmj726yeah e ink14:05
ShadowJKEven in maemo4 there are games that depend on a specific keyboard layouts..14:05
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Shapeshifter here's the link to the idea14:06
lardmanlunch time!14:06
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ShapeshifterI like the first picture idea.14:06
kirmaexcept for pure portable game consoles, devices have always huge compromises when it comes to gameplay. I don't think there is a single device that's really good at that now in the market... there's just good bullshitting14:06
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kirmayep, some sort of very small bt controller would solve things.14:07
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dmj726actually it would be interesting to see a controller that the n900 sits inside14:08
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dmj726making it look sorta like a psp14:08
dmj726it would have buttons/dpad on either side14:08
dmj726If you pair 2 n900's you get a very fast Nintendo DS :P14:09
kirmatheoretically not a bad idea, just very model-specific stuff to implement14:09
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dmj726yeah...perhaps make it to fit most 3.5 inch phones?14:09
kirmaphone-specific frame that would host universal BT HID device with battery...14:10
dmj726you could probably make something that would work with n900, iphone, and Droid14:10
kirmait might be hard to make "universal" also "studry"14:10
ShapeshifterMeh. I think I'll still just carry along my PSP for gaming.14:10
dmj726providing there was bt support on those14:10
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crashanddie_Pictures from last night:
* dmj726 has not had a portable game thing since the gameboy color14:11
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Shapeshifterthe PSP is pretty cool. Though I don't have time for gaming anyway so I haven't used it for months already.14:11
dmj726that you lcuk?14:11
dmj726Gaming is something that I do occasionally14:12
dmj726I've spent more time making games than playing them of late14:12
* kirma has had no portable game thingie (specifically for games!) since mickey-mouse-collects-eggs kind of monochrome LCD display thing with game-specific shapes on screen :)14:12
kirmathat'd be portable in comparison to any of things mentioned14:13
kirmaalthough very eighties-style...14:13
dmj726does an eee pc with soduku count?14:13
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dmj726what if it has blender?14:16
Shapeshifterthe n900 has a blender? ;)14:18
dmj726eee pc14:18
Shapeshifterthe eee pc has a blender? How are the smoothies?14:18
dmj726...I can confirm the usability of blender at 800x480 (on desktop)14:18
dmj726erm...kinda warm...theblender is the cpu fan14:19
dmj726fits nicely in the pocket though14:21
alteregoThe only portable game thingy I've had is the N8xx ^.^14:22
alteregoActually, I had a Psion Series 314:22
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alteregoThat had a game I was pretty addicted too, can't remember the name though14:23
alteregoI think it was called "Bounce" ... Which is interesting.14:23
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dmj726i can imagine n900 as a good gaming handheld14:28
GAN900I miss the GameBoy Pocket.14:29
GAN900Wish it had a dpad14:30
dmj726I had the color variant of the gboy pocket14:30
GAN900fdheycjxvm qasgnowkl.14:30
GAN900Interesting, somehow got a return out of that.14:30
GAN900That was my silly little "How many simultaneous keypresses does this thing handle?" test.14:32
dmj726the n900?14:32
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kirmaon-screen dpad without multitouch is problematic unless one starts to half-guess effects of multiple pressure points of specific combinations on the sensor14:33
* GAN900 <-14:33
kirmait *can* work to some extent, mmaybe.14:34
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Shapeshifterkirma: nah I think it would work well, of course only if that's the only thing on-screen. The rest would still need to be on the keyboard.14:35
kirmad-pad *plus* A/B buttons, you know?14:35
dmj726yeah dpad usually doesn't do 2 directions at once14:35
kirmaor whatever14:35
dmj726but combining d pad with a and b would be an issue14:36
kirmaactually, it wouldn't be necessarily an huge issue... it would just require good placement of "buttons" and somewhat more intelligent processing of the data14:36
kirmaif there are only two pressure points at the same time on the display, the read result is something on line between those14:37
kirmaif lines are properly enough separable and user action not too wizardric, I think it could be figured out14:38
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danielwilmscrashanddie_ hmmm...still curious :))14:38
dmj726I'd personally like a number of simple 3D games that take nice advantage of the hardware14:39
dmj726(in addition to classics like card games, chess, soduku etc14:39
kirmaI'd personally like C64 games if controls are made bearable ;)14:39
dmj726and a simple RTS would be awesome14:40
kirmatouchscreen A/B + accelerator direction might work too14:40
kirmaacceleration sensor even14:40
dmj726you would of course want to have the accelerator be changeable to keys in the event of bumpy roads14:41
kirmatheoretically one could use IR proximity sensor as one input outside touchscreen14:43
kirmabut that might be harder to attach and force-ignore on other parts of the software14:44
dmj726With Tux Freedom and Alnix Vax14:44
mzzI don't see how you could make touchscreen a/b + d-pad work without putting a and b inconveniently far apart14:45
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kirmamzz: yes, that's a challenge14:45
mzzkirma: not so much "a challenge" as "impossible" unless you can make some assumptions about your input, I think.14:45
dmj726one at a time14:46
Shapeshifterno, as I said, without multitouch that is pretty damn impossible. Only the d-pad would go onscreen, the rest needs to stay on the keyboard14:46
ShapeshifterI don't see a problem with that.14:46
kirmapressure level is supposedly also readable from input?14:46
mzzyou probably could mostly do it if you assume the d-pad and the a/b buttons don't change simultaneously14:46
mzzand I lie, still wouldn't quite work: I don't think you could detect whether a+right just changed into b+right or a+left14:47
dmj726the puns weren't too subtle were they?14:47
mzzerr, that example's broken, but you get the idea14:47
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kirmafrom raw sensor data, one might be able to work out things, but preprocessed, filtered data would probably be way too mangled to serve much purpose in such hackery14:48
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CoreFusion-Hmm.. one operator (here in finland) is stating that nokia has told them that the operator can start delivering N900's at friday the 4 of december, I believe this is the case for others too14:52
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lardmanah! still no Jeremiah, where is he?14:53
kirmanokia flagship store would start selling 27 of november, and preorder deliveries start on 20 of november14:53
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CoreFusion-kirma: yes, i'm aware of that, as nokia earlier has stated, those that preordered from them will get the devices first :)14:54
kirmasomehow I'm a pessimist about getting the device on friday, going to lose that weekend anyway ;)14:54
CoreFusion-you ordered directly from nokia?14:54
kirmathey could really have started on thursday, thus making express deliveries actually deliver before weekend...14:54
lardmanhmm, seems the addition of gdigicam hasn't solved my linking problems....14:54
CoreFusion-I ordered from Saunalahti14:55
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lardmanRight boys & girls, I need some linker advice, from people who use gstreamer14:55
RST38hOh, shit, the "Nokia will ditch Symbian for Maemo" thing is all over the news now14:55
dmj726it's not like that would be big news or anything14:56
RST38hlardman: if you mean ld, ask. If you mean some gstreamer feature, no idea14:56
zaheerm-lplardman, what's up14:56
lardmanIf I want to link against one of the gst plugins (as well as the main libgstreamer), should I need to manually supply a linker path (-L) or should it come from pkg-config?14:56
zaheerm-lplardman, don't link to a plugin :)14:56
lardmanas it doesn't14:56
zaheerm-lplardman, why do you want to link to a plugin?14:57
lardmanhow do I use a function supplied by the plugin then?14:57
zaheerm-lpwhat functions are you talking about?14:57
RST38hlardman: AFAIK plugins do not have .pc files so -L it is\14:57
lardmanI need to use the gst_photography functions defined in camerabin14:57
zaheerm-lpthat is different14:57
lardmanRST38h: some do actually, but none of their output contains -L stuff14:57
zaheerm-lplet me tell you the answer, give me a sec14:57
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GAN900Apparently the N97 mini uses Maemo 514:59
dmj726you're joking14:59
lardmanguess someone got their reporting wires crossed14:59
zaheerm-lplardman, pkg-config -L gstreamer-plugins-bad-0.1014:59
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lardmanzaheerm-lp: unknown option14:59
GAN900dmj726, dumbass bloggers. ;)15:00
lardmanpkg-config --libs-only-L gstreamer-plugins-bad-0.10 ??15:00
lardmanthat gives an empty string though15:00 it doesn't15:00
lardmandmj726: really?15:01
zaheerm-lplardman, pkg-config --libs gstreamer-plugins-bad-0.1015:01
zaheerm-lp-pthread -lgstphotography-0.10 -lgstbase-0.10 -lgstreamer-0.10 -lgobject-2.0 -lgmodule-2.0 -lgthread-2.0 -lrt -lxml2 -lglib-2.015:01
GAN900dmj726, yeah, no shit.15:01
dmj726if they hadn't mentioned the n900 right next to it and used the word "and" I would have thought it a type15:01
lardmanzaheerm-lp: hmm, sure I tried that, hang on let me see15:02
zaheerm-lplardman, i did this in my scratchbox15:02
lardmanzaheerm-lp: ah, wunderbar, worked as planned. Doh! on my part15:03
zaheerm-lplardman, no worries15:03
JaffaGAN900: I got a frantic SMS from Peter about this this morning15:03
zaheerm-lpJaffa, who was his source? :)15:03
lbtheh... what happened?15:03
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Jaffazaheerm-lp: No idea.15:04
dmj726what did Peter have to say?15:05
lbtI saw, wondered if you knew what had been said15:05
JaffaThere wasn't any announcement about anything in that article (Symbian future or Ovi Store being the only mechanism); nor during the Q&A15:06
kirmatoo much free beer to nokia folks? ;)15:07
lbtOK ta15:07
JaffaEither it's mostly made up by misunderstanding comments during a chat with someone; or it's all true15:07
JaffaOr it's all made up15:07
glass_it's the sort of thing that comes up when mobile people go to a pub15:07
Robot101Jaffa: doesn't that cover all possibilities?15:08
* lbt pushes the boundaries of tristate15:08
zaheerm-lpor it is a little bit speculation with a lot of feeding by someone there15:08
Robot101it could've been a plant from Android^WiPhone^WLimo^WPalm^WBadu!! ;)15:08
lbtyeah, but that sms was "frantic"15:08
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* lbt looks for the "send frantically" button on the maemo UI15:09
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* lbt finds it right next to the MMS button15:09
dmj726Everyone knows that Peter only uses an iphone.15:09
JaffaAn iPhone running Maemo 615:10
* lbt waits for an iBorg15:10
lbtOh, wait, that would be 7-of-915:10
dmj726already released...people just havent figured it out yet15:10
StskeepsJaffa: seems like the source of the articles i'd say15:11
dmj726there will be metallic tendrils coming out of the devices where the stylus should have been!15:11
alteregoNokia wont drop Symbian for a long time yet.15:11
kirmathe Nseries rumor makes sense, but it doesn't really mean that it would be factually verifiable stuff this time15:12
kirmaespecially the 2012 timeframe is more than just barely believable15:12
alteregoThe man years of 3rd party developers since S60's debut is pretty insane, and non-one has really adopted Qt, which is the only real migration path.15:12
suihkulokkiThere is a HUGE difference between "dropping from n-series" and "dropping completly" :P15:12
glass_i would find it hard for nokia to actually know for sure what os they're going to ship in what named os in 201215:12
suihkulokkin-series is just a marketing term (observe the freshly launched x-series)15:12
Stskeepssuihkulokki: the further away from the source the more convuluted the message gets :P15:13
alteregoglass_: you say that, but Maemo has been incubating and moving along their agenda for at least 5 years?15:13
Stskeepsespecially since it says symbian going to E-series15:13
glass_alterego: yes, but as i've said before i've listened to "they'll drop symbian in favor of maemo" for 3 years15:13
kirmaQt move on Symbian should really be done by 201215:13
kirmahell, it should be done to considerable extent already late 201015:13
alterego"...  from the entire ‘top end’ N-Series range of handsets ..."15:14
alteregoThat's exactly what they've been sxaying all along.15:14
glass_alterego: usually the commenter/comments not taking into account anything, like what kind of devices and what hw and how cheap they're supposed to be or etc..15:14
alteregoExpect to see maemo on the new N97 like flagship high-end devices,15:14
glass_well doh, n90015:14
alteregoDon't expect it on N8X series or N7X series devices.15:15
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alteregoBut there's really no difference there to what they've always been saying.15:15
glass_they're still doing a a lot of xxxx-number models too15:15
aolI don't think there will be symbian on the nokia flagships ever again15:15
aolsad reality, time to learn new platforms15:16
glass_it's not that sad15:16
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dmj726I think there would be a lot of complaints if Nokia followed up the n900 with a symbian device15:16
aolno, because symbian is crap... but sad because I know symbian so well :D15:16
alteregoYes there will aol, but the kinds of devices that the N95 were and the N97 is, will more than likely be geared toward Maemo, as they're supposed to be the most powerful handsets.15:16
aolalterego: I said flagship15:17
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dmj726Just think though...lots of people know the new OS already!15:17
alteregoflagship for a product line ..15:17
aolflagship meaning N95, N96, N97... :)15:17
alteregoYEah, one line :P15:17
kirmasymbian itself isn't crap if the top of the S60 stack is replaced with well-thought-out Qt and it's pushed to higher-middle segment phones15:17
alteregoOr, "liner" if we're talking ships ;)15:17
GuySoft_nokiahi all, does anyone know what web browser macuco gmail client uses?15:17
aolI guess there will be s60 flagship ... but who knows what is S40 flagship right now? or S30? yes, NO ONE CARES ! :D15:17
alteregoS30 and S40 don't exist.15:18
glass_kirma: i see it pushing to cheapos, where maemo doesn't have much place15:18
dmj726flagship is not the word to use for those15:18
glass_s40 exists15:18
alteregoNot anymore :P15:18
alteregoYeah, my mistake,15:18
aolkirma: symbian is efficient and fast but the API's kill creativity like nothing else15:18
alteregoS40 is still alive ^.^15:18
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alteregoSo why is my N96 so god awefully slow? :P15:18
aolkirma: it's sad fact that symbian is over engineered to death15:18
RST38haol: There is no problem adding standard POSIX APIs on top of Symbian15:18
glass_alterego: 'cause n96 blows ;D15:18
RST38haol: Combine that with Qt and you have got a decent little OS15:19
alteregoRST38h: OpenC :)15:19
kirmawell, anything below high-end smartphones is much muddier to separate from each other... but the "cheapos" are really ones with monochrome screen and sold for 20 euros or so in africa15:19
glass_alterego: n97 could be said to be less powerful than n95 too15:19
alteregoThey've already done that.15:19
RST38halterego: still no main() though?15:19
alteregoThey use glib/gobject in OpenC too.15:19
aolRST38h: yeah good job implementing Open C++, it is awfully buggy and slow :(15:19
dmj726how about replacing the symbian kernel with Linux and the Symbian userspace with Debian?15:19
glass_you could've had main() for ages in symbian15:19
alteregoRST38h: yeah, you can write apps with 'main'15:19
glass_not that it's too useful though15:19
kirmaS40 might replace S30 and new Qt-based Symbian replace S4015:19
RST38hglass: Well that is different main() :)15:19
aolRST38h: I'm not saying theres no good in symbian, but the implementation and execution has always been awful15:19
RST38hglass: But yes, sincle Symbian 9.1 (S60e3)15:19
kirmapotentially even S40 might adapt Qt for internal development (I think it should be a goal, only problem is if it's possible)15:20
aolthe api's buggy and non existent documentation15:20
aolI just wish would have happened 2-3 years ago15:20
glass_RST38h: well, before that too.   but to what good? most apps need ui not convinient to do from console exe15:20
aolnow its too late15:20
RST38hglass: And the UI is a freaking abomination15:20
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suihkulokkikirma google for qt and S4015:21
RST38hglass: Ok, Eikon was still relatively sane, but Nokia broke it and added Avkon which is crazy15:21
RST38hglass: [notice: isn't this what Nokia is doing to GTK+ in Maemo5? ;)]15:21
glass_RST38h: yeh they're so crap that most people that end up writing decent looking dynamic stuff just end up doing their own drawing15:21
kirmasuihkulokki: oh yeah... haven't really been looking at the situation so intensely lately, I think I were pretty certain things going that direction around midsummer last year...15:22
glass_dos was fun :\15:22
RST38h"i have a ds and love the game big brain acamedy. it allows you to play against someone with a ds even if they dont have the game. Is the n900 capable of this on blue tooth wifi." -- kryptoniankid17, Sep 200915:23
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suihkulokkiglass_: like on nokia 911015:23
* RST38h facepalms15:23
alteregoSo, anyone working on a GPS-fueled, google-streetview, augmented reality app for maemo yet?15:23
alteregoOh, + using video camera :)15:23
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alteregos/video camera/camera/15:23
infobotalterego meant: Oh, + using camera :)15:24
* RST38h has got a hypothesis on why gnuite has not released Maemo Mapper yet15:24
StskeepsRST38h: he isn't developing on it at all15:24
RST38hHe may be working on the official Google Maps for Maemo ;))15:24
Stskeepsit's another guy15:24
RST38hSts: ?15:24
Stskeepscheck commit logs for maemo mapper15:25
GuySoft_nokiahi all, does anyone know what web browser macuco gmail client uses?15:25
GuySoft_nokia..sorry for reposting, but it was missed aparently15:26
aolnokias mistake with S60 was not to throw away AVKON when they did binary break between 2nd/3rd15:26
alteregoGuySoft_nokia: "My application is a little webkit browser made in Qt that identifies itself as iPhone’s Safari"15:26
aolthen it continued to obsolete itself15:26
alteregoGuySoft_nokia: read the website next time.15:26
RST38hSts: Of course he is not! He is working on the secret internal Google app for Maemo! =)15:26
StskeepsAlberto Mardegan15:27
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lardmanhow do I refresh my icons?15:29
GuySoft_nokiaalterego, it seems not to behave as other webkit browsers out there. I was expecting it to be something speific15:30
GuySoft_nokiaits faster than midori15:30
alteregoI like this libchamplain stuff.15:31
lardmanalterego: where's your source code?15:31
alteregolardman: for what? :P15:32
lardmanalterego: macuco15:32
alteregolardman: it's not my project :P15:32
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lardmanah sorry, that was a quote :)15:32
lardmanspeaking of libchamplain, anyone fancy doing some more hildonisation on emerillon?15:32
alteregoYEs, I'd never even heard of macucu until he mentioned it.15:32
lardmanI quite like the idea of an embedded browser, for map type things....15:33
alteregoWhat's the current state of emerillon for maemo?15:33
lardmanah, that source is here anyway:
lardmanalterego: it runs ;)15:34
lardmanmenus need hildonisation15:34
alteregoOh, so you've just compiled it?15:34
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lardmannah it's been in the repo for a week or so15:34
alteregoAh, someone else compiled it :)15:34
lardmanno I did15:34
alteregoHah, okay.15:35
lardmanjust taking issue with the "just" in your statement :)15:35
alteregoI dunno, I'm scared to push any more Gtk development seeing as it'll be redundant in a year.15:35
Stskeepsnah, not redundant, just not preinstalled on device. for most cases, it would still exist15:35
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lardmanI have a plan for the menus, but haven't got round to implementing it yet15:35
alteregoNow, libchamplain on Qt might be interesting.15:35
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alteregoOh, it depends on Gdk :/15:36
derfRST38h: gnuite is in the Google black hole now. You'll never hear from him again.15:36
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RST38hderf: But the information about him will stay there forever!15:37
alteregoWhat does KDE have for geolocation infrastructure?15:38
lardmanor is that glib based?15:39
alteregoDoes the flash plugin on the N900 have access to the camera?15:39
lardmananyone know how to refresh the icons?15:39
alteregoIt's based :)15:39
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alteregoActually, scrap that, can't get GPS info from flash.15:40
* alterego sighs15:40
Stskeepsnot even with a bridge to the location extension? :P15:40
* lardman too, extras builder is not letting me through to step 215:40
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* lardman again curses the way mbarcode locks up when you try to close a dialog15:45
alteregoAnyone looked into getting application popularity statistics for iphone and seeing what we need to get 'em?15:46
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aola few fart apps maybe15:46
alteregoI'm being serious15:47
glass_make every app phone-home15:47
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fernando_someone needs to harvest the data from and make a app15:49
fernando_same for recipe sites15:49
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rzrhi can tell me in where can i found command "maemo-bootstrap" ? dpkg -S $(which maemo-bootstrap)15:49
Stskeepsthere's a maemo-bootstrap? :P15:49
Stskeepsfor what purpose? :P15:49
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alteregoI wonder if he's getting confused with debian-boostrap15:49
rzrStskeeps: i am wondering :)15:49
rzr  # /tmp/ 70: maemo-rootstrap: not found15:50
Stskeepsyou mean rootstrap15:50
alteregoOh, rootstrap! :)15:50
Stskeepsrzr: that's part of sb2 i think15:50
reedcan anybody familiar with explain why Funambol is listed as a proprietary component?15:51
alteregoWell, looks like games are most important to iphone users.15:51
Stskeepsreed: well, funambol exists as closed source licensing too15:52
vesafacebook chat plugin. that's what we need.15:53
fernando_but yeah, @ aol, to see examples of dumb almost useless applications app store lovers like15:53
alteregoThey have that from pidgin15:53
alterego~for pidgin15:53
reedalterego: I know, I just wonder ... I'll ask Funambol too15:53
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fernando_also doesn't telepathy-purple do that?15:53
TomaszDcan anyone check something for me? Put a whole day event for the 3rd December this year and see if it gets displayed in the calendar desktop widget15:53
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alteregoThough, people don't market these things.15:54
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alteregoAt least, we don't. I mean, we've had facebook-chat for libpurple for ages, it's not a new thing.15:54
alteregoSo why would we get excited about it? :)15:54
SpeedEvil - check out later in the article :)15:55
SpeedEvil(not n900 related)15:55
vesahmm purple. i'm quite sure there's nothing like that in maemo-extras15:56
vesanope, nothing =/15:56
alteregovesa: it was in testing last time I checked.15:56
alteregoOr maybe extras-devel15:56
vesaah ok. so it's coming. sweet =)15:56
alteregoIt's a pidgin thing.15:56
lbtJaffa: do you know about syncing contacts then.... :)15:57
* vesa has no idea what a pidgin is15:57
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* lbt was looking at syncevolution last night15:57
lbtvesa: pidgin is an im client15:58
Shapeshiftersharks carrying lasers.15:58
wjtalterego, vesa: we've got the pidgin-facebookchat plugin working with the built-in messaging stuff15:58
vesanow that's something to get exited about imo =)15:58
wjtalterego, vesa: but we needed to fix some bugs in a telepathy library first; not sure if that's made it into a public release15:59
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SpeedEvilI would be a lot more excited with pidgin if it worked in split mode.15:59
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lbtwjt: you're a contacts person aren't you?15:59
SpeedEvilAs in I can set it up on some server somewhere, and connect to it remotely.15:59
SpeedEvilRather than falling offline whenever I lose signal.15:59
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Jaffalbt: oh, were you?16:01
Jaffalbt: I want syncevolution for calendars :)16:01
lbtdidn't get far... also looked at obex16:02
wjtJaffa: oh, i meant to come say hi yesterday; hermes is *sweet*16:02
wjtlbt: i'm a telepathy person, not contacts per se16:02
lbtJaffa: me too...16:02
lbtwjt: close enough16:02
Robot101we should, like, finish this and blog it with a video of how to set it up and install it16:02
wjti have a contacts person next door i can shout at... :P16:02
Robot101not many collaborans on planet maemo though16:02
wjtRobot101: yes... we can't until the new tp-glib is out publicly16:03
* lbt is looking for the right approach to get contact/cal sync to linux desktop16:03
wjtbarisione: hey, you should speak to lbt!16:03
Robot101can maemo extras upgrade "system" software?16:03
lbtRobot101: X-Fade will do that in a jiffy16:03
lbtwhen he's back16:03
Robot101lbt: which, the video and blogging bits? :)16:03
Robot101don't want Pidgin listed as the "crown jewel" on again :P16:04
lbtlink to planet-maemo16:04
barisionewjt, lbt: syncing contacts between linux and n900?16:04
lbtbarisione: yes16:04
* lbt looked at gnokii, syncevolution, obex last night16:05
lbtgot somewhere with all of them16:05
lbtbut none 'worked'16:05
lbtwondered if anyone had a sane strategy16:05
barisionesadly we have sync with outlook, but not with evo...16:05
lbt(gnokii sounds wrong)16:05
barisionetbh I don't know how all the syncing apps work16:05
lbtbarisione: yes, is that compatible with obex?16:06
vesabetween hermes and friendstatus is there any way to update messenger 'status updates' to your phone?16:06
vesaskype statuses seem to work fine, only have 1 friend on skype tho =P16:06
lbtit's really sad that a linux phone won't talk to linux apps :(16:06
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lbtespecially since it has syncml16:06
lbtbut not over tcp AFAIUI16:06
barisionelbt: there are 2 separate sync things on the n900 from what I know, the one used with other nokia phones (that should be syncml) and exchange16:07
lbtso syncevolution does syncml over usb16:07
lbtbarisione: makes sense16:07
barisionebut I work on the addressbook and those apps are on top (and closed source) so I don't know how they work exactly16:07
lbtwould it make sense to write an open syncml client on the libcontacts base?16:08
barisionedid you try using the transfer & sync app via bluetooth with linux?16:10
barisionewhat does it do?16:10
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lbtnot bluetooth, just usb16:11
lbtusb via obex_client recognises it16:11
lbtand sees multiple profiles16:11
lbtsyncml and pc suite16:12
lbtbut doesn't negotiate the link16:12
lbtI wasn't sure if authentication was needed16:12
lbtit's hard to diagnose config bugs with zarro docs16:12
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Stskeepswb qwerty1216:14
qwerty12Thanks, Stskeeps16:14
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lopzhi ;)16:20
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RST38hRobot: what is wrong with pidgin?16:23
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wjtRST38h: hey, let's ignore the well-integrated IM support in Maemo and add an application that looks kind of out of place16:25
Shapeshiftermhhh, there's no irssi for the n900 yet, right?16:27
cosmothe well-integrated im support sucks even more than pidgin in irc16:28
Robot101RST38h: we've been working for 4 years, with Nokia, on Telepathy, an IM framework designed to allow the installation of 3rd party protocol plugins with totally native integration into the device Contacts, Conversations and Call16:28
Robot101cosmo: multi-user chat is being worked on16:28
aepShapeshifter: why would it have to be ported at all?16:28
Shapeshifteraep: I'm guessing it already exists for arm?16:28
cosmoRobot101: that would be nice. for fremantle?16:28
aepShapeshifter: its C.  just recompile16:29
Robot101cosmo: yeah, a later software update16:29
timeless_mbpalterego: flash was blocked from camera access.16:29
timeless_mbpbut it could get gps via the js bridge + the gps extension16:29
RST38hRobot: So?16:29
cosmoRobot101: excellent! make it good :-)16:29
RST38hRobot: Pidgin is still pretty comfortable16:29
RST38hRobot: Maybe integrating it with Maemo IM framework is a more constructive idea?16:30
Shapeshifteraep: I meant more like a package in extras16:30
Robot101RST38h: we have - there's a Telepathy backend which uses the protocol plugins from Pidgin...16:30
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RST38hRobot: No, vice versa16:31
RST38hRobot: Using plugins from Pidgin while denying Pidgin right to live is not very nice :)16:31
Robot101RST38h: the point is, if there's going to be a big "GET PIDGIN" advert on, why don't we all just give up and go home? I'd rather the Nokia sponsored site promoted the technologies Nokia has been sponsoring, so at least its consistent and not a gigantic "f**k you" to their own developers who worked on designing and implementing the built-in stuff16:31
aepShapeshifter: ah.16:31
RST38hRobot: What I meant though is accessing Maemo IM through Pidgin UI16:31
toggles_wkill the rat with wings16:32
RST38hRobot: Ok, I will give you my personal view on that16:32
RST38hRobot: As far as I am concerned, current Maemo IM is incomplete16:32
ShapeshifterRST38h: what's missing?16:33
RST38hRobot: Pidgin fills some holes left open in your implementation16:33
Robot101the UI for conversations and contacts etc is designed for the device, wedging pidgin on top of that is just going to be bizzare16:33
Robot101if at all possible16:33
RST38hShapeshifter: Cannot lookup details on a previously unknown guy who sent you a message16:33
ShapeshifterRST38h: you get messages from unknown guys?16:33
glass_who doesn't16:33
Robot101that's a known issue and planned to be fixed, I think16:33
cosmojust make the maemo ui better than pidgin and people start using it16:33
RST38hShapeshifter: ICQ users who were offline at the moment they were added are left as UINs (no nicks no data)16:33
glass_"hey, intrested in cheap glassware?"16:34
RST38hShapeshifter: Yes, sometimes16:34
Robot101pidgin doesn't use e-d-s or telepathy or any of the underlying stuff, you can't just "make it use the framework"16:34
RST38hShapeshifter: IRC plugin is disfunctional and the chatroom mode is not even implemented16:34
Robot101barisione: ^^ when does eds-backend-tp retrieve aliases?16:34
Shapeshiftermh. I don't really seem to care about these. but I guess it's fixable in their IM thingy, and I find it looks damn well sexy.16:34
RST38hRobot: Well, can't you write some kind of pidgin plugin that connects to telepathy rater than directy to services?16:34
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Robot101RST38h: IRC is planned to be fixed too16:34
Shapeshifterirssi is for IRC:16:34
Robot101well, at least to have a chatroom mode in the UI16:35
RST38hRobot101: Well, at least process /msgs :)16:35
Robot101these are all little tweak/polish things, not throw away 2+ years work.16:35
RST38hShapeshifter: No way to exchange files via any of the services (Skype, ICQ, IRC, etc)16:35
ShapeshifterRST38h: I see.16:35
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RST38hRobot: They may feel like zsmall things to you, but to normal users who are used to them they may be show stoppers16:35
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ShapeshifterI see the problem.16:36
Stskeepssend files is annoying, yeah16:36
Stskeepssharing plugin for contacts could be useful16:36
RST38hRobot: Ironically, I absolutely LOVE N900's integrated unified IM :)16:36
RST38hRobot: Just wish it were complete with features people normally expect from IM16:36
alteregoDoes telepahy not have file transfer ability?16:36
barisioneRST38h: I don't know how ICQ work as I didn't use it for centuries and I have no friends there16:36
RST38hRobot: I.e. stuff like ICQ Online Chess can burn in Hell :)16:36
barisioneRST38h: but what you are describing could be due to a bug I'm fixing now16:36
ShapeshifterWell. Any of these protocolls should be killed anyway and all people should be forced to use jabber >.>16:37
RST38hbarisione: Well, it is regional16:37
qwerty12RST38h: s/Online Chess//16:37
Robot101alterego: it does, we're going to implement a UI for it16:37
alteregoShapeshifter: what about facebook chat ;)16:37
RST38hShapeshifter: distopia =)16:37
Shapeshifterarghhhhhh facebook chat DIE DIE16:37
Shapeshifterwhat an abomination16:37
barisioneRST38h: it was very popular in italy before they had the service not working properly for italians for months16:37
Robot101there are always rumours about facebook chat being secretly XMPP and them turning it on one day16:37
barisioneRST38h: and everybody switched to MSN16:37
Robot101but, the problem with facebook chat on the device before that is that it will *kill* battery16:38
Robot101it makes a new HTTP connection every 30 seconds16:38
Robot101crappy ajax hacks16:38
ShapeshifterI'm lucky no one really uses it here. People here like skype a lot.16:38
Shapeshifterwhich I hate because pidgin doesn't do it.16:38
ShapeshifterAnd skype for linux stinks16:38
alteregoI don't use facebook chat much.16:38
alteregoI use MSN mostly.16:38
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suihkulokkiShapeshifter: N900 does skype chat well16:39
timeless_mbphey, does someone here have an n900 w/ the official emmc image?16:39
* Corsac waits for nov 2816:39
Shapeshiftersuihkulokki: yep.16:41
* timeless_mbp pokes16:41
* mgedmin has a n900 and an official emmc image, but a n900 with the official emmc image16:41
* timeless_mbp tries to parse that16:42
* timeless_mbp keeps trying16:42
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RST38hbarisione: What is MSN? Something having to deal with Microsoft Office Communicator? =)16:43
Shapeshifterhow does the n900 support skype anyway?16:43
ShapeshifterI mean, technically16:43
SpeedEvilskype-sourced binary isn't it/16:43
ShapeshifterThe IM, you said its telepathy? does telepathy use the skype binary?16:44
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Shapeshifterwith skype fully running in the background, just like with the pidgin hack plugin?16:44
suihkulokkiRST38h: office communicator is different, it is supported by pidgin-sipe16:45
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ShapeshifterAnyway I find it awful that skype doesn't even own the sources to its own protocol. How weak.16:45
timeless_mbpShapeshifter: hrm16:46
Shapeshifterwhy did ebay do that.16:46
timeless_mbpyou mean that you find it awful that Nokia doesn't own the patents for all the Cellular bits?16:46
Shapeshiftermorons. buying the app but not the source16:46
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timeless_mbpand no16:46
timeless_mbpit isn't a matter of source16:46
timeless_mbpit's a matter of licensing16:46
Shapeshiftertimeless_mbp: mh? in the beginning, the protocol and the skype app were developed by the same guy.16:46
Shapeshifterbut he only sold the app16:47
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Shapeshiftertimeless_mbp: well okay, licensing. But why would anyone agree to that?16:47
RST38hsuihkulokki Somehow, I prefer to stay with ICQ, although it is definitely evil16:47
Shapeshifterhe's evil.16:47
RST38hsuihkulokki: But I do not want to have multiple evils in my contacts, one is enough16:47
timeless_mbpShapeshifter: people agree to all sorts of things16:47
timeless_mbpFlandry: you're out of memory?16:48
zashis there xmpp and/or jingle support?16:48
javispedronot jingle afaik16:48
Flandrypaging to disk, brb16:48
Robot101jingle? yes16:48
Robot101the N800 was the first device to support jingle ever :)16:48
Shapeshifterbut this is bad for everyone. Except the guy owning the protocol. But it's stopping everything. I bet by now skype would have somewhat opened it's protocol if it could. Imagine other people writing skype clients for free and skype earning more bucks because people use their services even without using their client16:49
javispedroah, forgot about audio, sorry.16:49
ShapeshifterIt's so stupid.16:49
Robot101video, well, lets see :)16:49
* RST38h moos at javispedro16:49
timeless_mbpsomeone w/ an n900?16:49
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RST38hShapeshifter: I spoke to people reverse engineering Skype16:49
RST38hShapeshifter: You do not really want to know what it does.16:50
ShapeshifterRST38h: >.>16:50
Shapeshiftersending all my mail to them, or what16:50
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RST38hShapeshifter: Actually, if you knew, you would probably remove it as a security risk16:50
Shapeshifternot this, but I've heard some evil stuff.16:50
ShapeshifterRST38h: well, tell me.16:50
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zashkillall skype16:51
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RST38hShapeshifter: Gives Skype a lot of control over your machine, if Skype decides it wants the control16:51
ShapeshifterRST38h: I noticed that, sometimes when it crashes I can't kill it anymore even though it's not <defunct>16:51
Shapeshifterin any case it doesn't obey SIGKILL even though it should16:51
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javispedrothat sounds like a kernel driver issue16:52
zashRST38h: shitcraps?16:53
SpeedEvilSkypes fundamental problem is that it's a binary, with an undocumented protocol that is expected to punch through firewalls.16:53
ccookeSpeedEvil: punching through firewalls is trivial.16:53
javispedroand acts as a p2p protocol, which only adds to the injury16:53
SpeedEvilThis means that a trojan exploiting holes in the skype client could gain _wide_ acceptance.16:53
* Shapeshifter is reading
Shapeshiftermhh. long link.16:53
RST38hSpeedEvil: According to what I heard, Skype itself IS a trojan16:54 !16:54
RST38hSpeedEvil: Just not being actively used by the company16:54
SpeedEvilccooke: Sure - but being expected to in the normal course of operations isn't.16:54
ccookeSpeedEvil: um. it's pretty much essential for a voip client, tbh.16:54
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lbtif SIP wasn't so crap then Skype would have some competition....16:55
ccookeand I'd happily accept it from most IM clients, too16:55
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SpeedEvilccooke: Having a binary only undocumented client however is not.16:56
ccookeSpeedEvil: quite.16:56
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ccookeSpeedEvil: it's the only serious difference with skype, anyway - we know the protocol of every other IM/voip system16:57
SpeedEvilMy problem isn't even the undocumented protocol, it's the remote code execution possibilities on bugs.16:57
SpeedEvilDo I trust skype not to do the trojan thing - maybe.16:57
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SpeedEvilDo I trust them to write 100% bug-free code - well no.16:57
ccookeSpeedEvil: to be honest, they're no worse than any other client.16:58
timeless_mbpSpeedEvil: err16:59
StskeepsRST38h: russian mafia and getting ahead in lucrative business by grabbing documents? ;)16:59
ccookeevery single IM client might have remote execution bugs. There's nothing seriously different about skype's implementation that creates greater risk other than the obscurity of closed source.16:59
timeless_mbpyou realize that Skype's code is audited occasionally, right?16:59
SpeedEvilccooke: widespread distribution.16:59
timeless_mbpdo you trust Nokia's code?16:59
SpeedEviltimeless_mbp: I diddn't actually, no.16:59
ccookeSpeedEvil: no, not really. AIM, yahoo, etc have similar distribution17:00
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* timeless_mbp is pretty sure skype's code has been at times17:00
RST38hSts: Baltic mafia =)17:00
* lbt glances at scratchboxisms and othe hacks in maemo packages17:00
RST38hSts: I remember Skype being a .EE-based company or something17:00
ccooketimeless_mbp: been what?17:00
zashRST38h: .se?17:01
pupnik_RST38h: did you catch the new hints about performance from kontto yesterday?  heaphone jack?  1000hz filter?17:01
javispedroparanoidly talking about what closed source code REALLY does? time to call RMS!17:01
RST38hpupnik: Yea, cute =)17:01
RST38hpupnik: Not something I can do anything about17:01
ShapeshifterI think the easiest way of "reverse engineering" the protocol and binary is to go to his house and force it out of him 24 style ;)17:01
pupnik_i dont see an option to disable in /etc/17:01
RST38hpupnik: But at least he is saying compositing support is in the latest hildon-desktop in git17:01
javispedroand on the sdk17:02
pupnik_for sdl?17:02
RST38hpupnik: i.e. compositing that we can use at app level to created scaled display surfaces for emulators17:02
javispedroI tried yesterday17:02
pupnik_very good of them to have prioritised that17:02
RST38hShapeshifter: That method is known as thermorectal cryptoanalysis17:02
javispedronote though that the only way  I know to use it is creating another x11 window17:02
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RST38hjavis: Which is wrong17:02
RST38hAnd here is konttori =)17:03
javispedrowhich is rather ... hard in SDL and probably will require editing the actual librayr.17:03
javispedrohi konttori17:03
pupnik_this is the sort of thing that one person needs to write once, and the rest of uss cut and paste :)17:03
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javispedrokonttori: tested your code snippet on sdk yesterday, worked well.17:04
RST38hjavis: I guess Xv wuld be the right place to do this17:04
konttorijavispedro: great to hear that.17:04
javispedrokonttori: even though I couldn't find a way to use it without creating a new X11 window17:04
konttorijavispedro: did you test with also sdl window?17:04
RST38hjavis: I would prefer /dev/db0 FBIO_SET?SCREENINFO but that would be selfish :)17:04
RST38hjavis, konttori: gentlemen, can I have that code snippet? =)17:06
RST38hor a reference to it?17:06
javispedrokonttori: i have to check if sdl is using an extra x11 window for the actual framebuffer, but if it's not, it would not look pretty if I just make the parent window send the actual scale messages17:07
javispedroRST38h: wait a bit, looking up17:07
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javispedroRST38h: looks scary ( Cairo _is_ scary ;) ) but the actual scaling stuff is simple17:09
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RST38hjavis: Thanks17:10
tbfjavispedro: actually cairo is pretty nice if you got how it works17:10
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RST38hjavis: Actually, it looks ok17:11
RST38hjavis: Looks like a special GTK widget, basically, that lets you scale the contents17:11
javispedrothat's the idea17:11
RST38hjavis: I do not see XWindow there though17:11
javispedrohildonanimationactor wraps it17:11
RST38hjavis: Ah! But that is ok17:12
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RST38hGtk wraps all kinds of XWindows, as long as I do not see them I am ok17:12
javispedroand then uses xatoms as a pseudoipc system to command hildon-desktop17:12
RST38hjavis: I am really ok with that as long as it is hidden17:13
RST38hjavis: The problem I see though is that it cannot be used with /dev/fb017:13
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RST38hjavis: So, at the end, using this for full screen may be more expensive than CPU based scaling to fb017:13
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javispedrobut of course, some people want to be composited ;)17:14
javispedroin which case uploading the least amount of information to the powervr and letting it work its way works17:14
RST38hit will probably work better than GtkImage + CPU scaling17:15
RST38hWill have to test17:15
javispedroand of course the vr lets you do nearest filters and all that stuff for free17:15
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timeless_mbpso no one here is willing to admit to possession of an n900?17:17
javispedroyes, you got me!17:17
w00t_I'd admit to it, unfortunately, I don't have one yet ;-)17:17
javispedrodamn me!17:17
RST38hjavis: I do my own nearest filters ;)17:18
timeless_mbpjavispedro: can you follow these steps?17:18
timeless_mbp1. open task launcher17:18
RST38hjavis: And blizzard did alntialiasing too ;)17:18
timeless_mbp2. open "More..."17:18
timeless_mbp3. open File Manager17:18
javispedrono, I was lying :)17:18
* timeless_mbp grumbles17:18
timeless_mbpsomeone, anyone,?17:18
javispedrobut hey, if you think the same happens on diablo..17:18
fragmenttimeless_mbp: I have one17:18
lbtooh, it has a file mgr17:18
timeless_mbp4. Open "Documents"17:19
timeless_mbp5. Open "User Guides"17:19
aSIMULAterhi timeless17:19
lbt4, FAIL17:19
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timeless_mbphi aSIMULAter17:19
lbtit says <hostname>17:19
timeless_mbphrm 3.5. Open n90017:19
* lbt notes that the file mgr calls my device by name despite the dhcp "we're too anal to name the device" bug17:20
lbttimeless_mbp: looking at guides17:20
timeless_mbp6. Open the User_Guide_English_index.html17:20
lbtguides just vanished17:20
* lbt strokes screen17:21
timeless_mbp7. scroll down to "Manage time"17:21
RST38h"Afghan minister allegedly bribed" (C)WashPost17:21
* lbt has german guide ... eek17:21
timeless_mbp8. tap that17:21
RST38hIs that news? =)17:21
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timeless_mbpRST38h: that it's reported is news17:21
timeless_mbp9. switch back to file manager17:22
timeless_mbp10. Open User_Guide_English-US_index.html17:22
timeless_mbp11. scroll down to "Manage time"17:22
timeless_mbp12. tap that17:22
timeless_mbp-- i believe you should have 3 windows open (file manager, browser[manage time], browser[manage time])17:23
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timeless_mbp-- what's the last line of text on your screen in those browser windows?17:23
lbtwell, the 1st one has "view the calendar" (but I had to enable the status bar to allow a task switch)17:24
timeless_mbp-- to the peanut gallery, this depends on the default font size lbt is using (Small, Medium, Large)17:24
fragmentwhen browser in full screen?17:24
lbt2nd same17:24
timeless_mbpok. please compare that line again.17:24
lbtadd and edit events17:25
timeless_mbpor that line17:25
lbtyep, same on both17:25
fragmentwith and without .17:25
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timeless_mbpfragment: aha!17:25
* timeless_mbp waits for lbt to catch up17:25
lbtyep, the browser views are the same17:26
timeless_mbpfragment was saying that the views aren't /quite/ the same17:26
lbtif  'small' then "view the calendar"17:26
timeless_mbp(i believe)17:26
lbtif fullscreen then "add and edit events"17:26
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fragment"View the calendar" vs "View the calendar."17:26
lcuk2thanks crashanddie17:27
VDVsxplease test and vote :
* VDVsx wants it in Extras :p17:27
* lbt notes that "User Guide" is bloody well buried!17:27
timeless_mbplbt: good thing too!17:27
zaheerm-lplook at top article on
dnearylbt: Hello?17:27
lbtdneary: hi17:27
timeless_mbpgiven the errors visible at the first screen of this page :)17:27
RST38hVDVsx: Tonight, ok?17:27
dnearyWhich user guide? Buried how?17:27
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VDVsxRST38h, :)17:28
lbttimeless_mbp: I did note the instructions seemed wrong17:28
lbtdneary: on-device17:28
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VDVsxzaheerm-lp, yup, someone dropped the bomb yesterday, you was there probably :P17:29
RST38hBtw, what is geotoad?17:29
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dnearylbt: Ah17:29
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RST38hVDVsx: Someone at Maemo Devices will get punished over this =)17:29
dnearyDon't care about that.17:29
dnearyVDVsx, Will you be in Barcelona?17:30
VDVsxdneary, think so:)17:30
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zaheerm-lpVDVsx, no i am in barcelona :)17:30
Flandrycould use some testing there too. It's been in testing for over a week with only one vote17:30
dnearyWill you be joining in the docs session for part of Saturday?17:30
* zaheerm-lp is in barcelona 3 times in 4 weeks :)17:30
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lbttimeless_mbp: done?17:30
VDVsxdneary, dunno, depends on the UX activities17:31
dnearyI'll try to drag you in for a while (in the morning maybe)17:31
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lbtdneary: did you ever get syncevolution working?17:31
lbtover usb?17:31
dnearylbt: In a limited way17:32
dnearySyncs often fail17:32
dnearyOver IP17:32
lbtto a linux desktop?17:32
VDVsxzaheerm-lp, great, we're counting on you for the best bars/night places ,hihihi17:32
dnearyTo Google Calendar and gmail17:32
zaheerm-lpVDVsx, i don't drink :P17:32
zaheerm-lpVDVsx, but foodwise i have a few recommendations17:32
* lbt wanted an open solution ;)17:32
VDVsxzaheerm-lp, that's not a valid excuse ;)17:32
VDVsxI'm kidding ;)17:33
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zaheerm-lplbt, easy, we ask google to free the code for calendar and gmail and their deps :)17:34
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lbtzaheerm-lp: should be easier than getting an open contact sync out of Nokia .... mutter17:35
zaheerm-lplbt, lol17:36
* lbt goes to research curses to aim at Nokia17:36
zaheerm-lpwho told them to do syncml just over bt/usb17:36
Shapeshifterwho does syncml over bt/usb?17:37
* ccooke finds the video of somoene using a palm pre to cut cheese17:38
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ccookelbt: what did they do this time?17:38
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zashccooke: 1up it by building a cheese-slicer? into the n910!17:39
lbtsyncml won't talk to linux17:39
ccookezash: no thanks17:39
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ccookelbt: ah. It never did, really17:39
lbtI can sync my linux phone to exchange...17:39
Shapeshifterlbt: I thought the n900 only does exchange.17:39
lbtNo, it's just the N90017:39
ccookesyncml has never had a reliable, working implementation on linux17:39
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lbtmost wince phones (syncml) will sync to linux desktops...17:40
lbtccooke: flakey and crap would be an improvement on nowt17:40
ccookeI've tried with four phones and another two or three devices..17:40
ccookelbt: ah.17:40
ccookelbt: hmm. Proxy time :-)17:40
Khertanlbt: most wince phone can delete your contact with syncml on linux desktop17:40
* lbt wonders if the contacts 'backup' may be a place to start...17:41
Khertanbut i ll not call this a sync17:41
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lbtKhertan as it stands I can't get *anything*  from the  device to the desktop17:42
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Khertanlbt ? really ?17:42
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lbtany suggestions?17:42
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lbtgnokii - nope via usb or AT17:43
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lbtsyncml via syncevolution 0.9 ... recognise, no connect17:43
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lbtobex - similar17:43
lbtnot tried bluetooth yet17:43
lbthell, it won't talk to my old 3110 - which would talk to gnokii17:44
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ccookelbt: odd.17:45
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Khertanlbt gnoki on your desktop linux17:46
Khertanit s works17:46
lbtit's pretty crap but yes17:46
lbtI got an ldif out of my 311017:46
lbtwhich was all I needed17:47
Khertani ve sync my 6500s directly by bluetooth with the n90017:47
lbt*nod* my 3110 is probably too old/simple17:47
reedStskeeps: it seems that Nokia licensed Funambol c++ sdk and decided to re-license it as non-free in Maemo517:47
RST38hPromoting VGBA 3.6.7-1 to testing17:47
ccookePerhaps our own version of syncml would be better than trusting the Nokia one.17:47
Khertanbut i understand that it s works only if the 6500s have a sim card :)17:47
RST38hWhoever wants it in Extras, TEST AND VOTE17:47
ccookeit's a reasonably standard protocol, after all.17:47
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reedccooke: Funambol is syncml, server and a few clietns17:48
Jaffawjt: thanks :)17:49
amit_usualHi can some one tell me what has python-gpsbt been replaced by in maemo5 for gps17:49
lizardoamit_usual: there is no replacement for it yet :(17:50
konttorijavispedro: RST38h: Ideally you guys should be able to just set the XAtoms and have thus any window scaled (no need to be gtk)17:50
lizardoamit_usual: the GPS API has changed by the liblocation one, and there are no bindings for it yet17:50
amit_usualany planned soon17:50
javispedrokonttori: but afaik (from reading hildonanimationactor docs) scaled windows need a parent window17:51
RST38hkonttori: Are you sure XAtoms is the right way to do it?17:51
* RST38h admits he has never used XAtoms for anything17:51
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Stskeepsreed: well that's the conditions of dual license projects..17:52
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reedStskeeps: sure; no question about that ... I'm simply wondering why Nokia did not release its modifications: old proprietary habits or something else?17:54
Stskeepsreed: there's the factor you forget about.. time17:54
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reedStskeeps: time goes into the 'something else' category ... perfectly reasonable17:54
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Stskeepsreed: it takes time to pass things through legal check so17:55
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microlithyay, now where's my shipping notice18:00
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lizardoamit_usual: I am not aware of any short term plans yet, but there is an open bug on it : , also see , maybe it might work for you18:08
povbotBug 5748: Add bindings to liblocation18:08
povbotBug 5748: Add bindings to liblocation18:08
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VDVsxoh, the new firmware plays nice with my router, no need to disable power saving anymore :D18:09
javispedroyeah, the corresponding bug report was marked as fixed :)18:10
zaheermVDVsx, what was it doing before with your router?18:10
RST38hthat is censored.18:10
VDVsxzaheerm, with power saving enabled, the connection was always dropping18:10
zaheermVDVsx, also....have you noticed resolv.conf not updating with the new firmware on connection to wifi?18:11
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VDVsxzaheerm, nop18:11
zaheermi want to know what the rules for when it updates resolv.conf are18:11
qwerty12zaheerm: It's not meant to update; dnsmasq is running a reason18:11
RST38h"There's a rounding-error bug in the camera driver's autofocus routine (which uses a timestamp) that causes autofocus to behave poorly on a 24.5-day cycle. That is, it'll work for 24.5 days, then have poor performance for 24.5 days, then work again."18:11
zaheermmine i am having to edit whenever i move18:11
RST38hDon't you just LOVE Android? =)18:11
zaheermqwerty12, so how can i debug that?18:11
zaheermRST38h, lol18:12
VDVsxRST38h, great bug :P18:12
qwerty12zaheerm: No idea, "nameserver" has always worked for me18:12
zaheermqwerty12, aah so resolv.conf doesn't change ever?18:12
qwerty12Nope :)18:13
zaheermexplains it!18:13
VDVsxRST38h, almost at the same level as the Zune 'dates' bug18:13
zaheermso the first time i changed it, it must have been that the dns server was borked18:13
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lardmananyone know how to enable macro mode on the N900 using gst_photography_*() calls?18:15
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RST38hVDVsx: Well, it is like the famous moon phase bug of yore18:19
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VDVsxRST38h, dunno that one o_0, but seems neat :P18:19
zaheermlardman, that's the api18:20
zaheermlardman, GST_PHOTOGRAPHY_SCENE_MODE_CLOSEUP for macro mode18:20
lardmanah, that's the one18:21
* lardman wonders what's wrong with the standard "macro" term...? ;)18:21
suihkulokkiRST38h: that's 2^31 msec =)18:22
zaheermno worries, i've never used or had any influence with the api :)18:22
javispedromoon phase bug! interesting :)18:23
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suihkulokkiRST38h: there was a infamous "click to focus stops working after 49 days" in wmaker that took years to find =)18:24
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SpeedEvilsuihkulokki: And openoffice won't print on tuesdays.18:25
Stskeepsbetter than mondays18:25
* lbt plugs printer into N900 to test.... oh, wait...18:25
Shapeshifterwhat's this "MPD" everyone refers to on the forums?18:27
Shapeshifterit's not mpd, that's for use...18:27
SpeedEvilMobile Phones Direct18:27
infobotShapeshifter meant: it's not mpd, that's for sure...18:27
* Pavlov_ wonders where in the US is actually shipping n900s18:27
greenflyPavlov_: according to the press release it looked like it would start in "flagship" stores in certain major cities18:27
SpeedEvil redirects htere now18:28
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Pavlov_could be NY and Chicago18:28
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Pavlov_ill see if i can convince someone in NY to go check it out18:29
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ShapeshifterI don't really see why everyone's so on edge because the phone is a bit late18:30
CoreFusion-indeed.. and it's not even that late from what was told18:30
* CoreFusion- going to make something to eat...18:30
ccookeShapeshifter: because it might all turn out to have been a cruel lie and there really *is* no n900. The summit was a lie - we were all hypnotised.18:30
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fabriceHi all, anyone knows if pngenc in gstreamer is available for diablo? I can't find it in any package18:30
ccookeAll the pre-releases were faked by marketing people. It's *actually* a psychology experiment.18:31
lardmanccooke: and I'm hypnotically listening to music on mine18:31
ccookelardman: no, you're a plant.18:32
ccookeso are half the people here. It's all a Conspiracy, see18:32
Shapeshifterand Nokia is actually called hypnokia18:33
zaheerm-lplardman, out of curiosity what app you making that uses the photography api?18:33
lardmanbarcode scanner18:33
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lardmanI needed autofocus and for the N900 I really need macro mode too18:33
zaheerm-lplardman, aah ok do you know that ensonic (Stefan Kost) has been working on barcode gst elements etc.18:34
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lardmanI almost pushed it to extras-devel at lunch time, but it failed to build, which is good as the dialogs are still locking it up18:34
lardmanyes, I saw his gst element18:34
lardmanonly issue atm is that I have to use both zbar (which he uses) and also libsmtx18:34
lardmanlibdmtx even18:34
zaheerm-lplardman, i talked to him at GSoC mentor summit where we were the Gst mentors present18:34
zaheerm-lplardman, libdmtx is for different barcodes?18:35
lardmancool, I met him last year in Berlin18:35
fabricelardman, is the gst element pngenc available on the n900 ?18:35
lardmanyeah, zbar does 1D and Qr (thanks derf ;)) and libdmtx does datamatrix18:35
lardmanfabrice: no idea, sorry18:35
zaheerm-lpfabrice, yes18:35
fabricezaheerm-lp, just asking because on my N810/Diablo I can't find it18:36
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zaheerm-lpfabrice, you probably need to package up a gst-plugins-good-png with just the png elements18:36
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fabricezaheerm-lp, you mean it's not part of a standard package in a repo ?18:37
zaheerm-lpfabrice, i guess, it is in maemo518:37
fabriceok thanks18:37
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ShapeshifterI like this forum post:18:49
ShapeshifterSo now the N900 has been "shipped", has "landed" and is "available". What are the next steps between "available" and "in my freaking hands"?18:49
nomisheh  :)18:49
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StskeepsShapeshifter: ???, obviously18:50
zaheerm-lpShapeshifter, you pay the shop some money :P18:50
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zaheerm-lpaah lol didn't see the "i like this forum post:" part18:51
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Stskeepsdoes anyone know if libicd-network-dummy exists for fremantle?18:52
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javispedrothe package does.18:52
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Shapeshifterdamn, norwegian sound good18:58
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ShapeshifterI only understand about every 20th word, but it sounds brilliant18:58
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zaheerm-lpqwerty12, thx! i figured out that the place where i first noticed the problem seems not to provide valid dns servers to the n900 on dhcp19:00
VDVsxjavispedro, RST38h your emus are in the nokia N900 extravaganza videos :P19:00
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Anwarboy11has anyone got a retail version on the n900 yet?19:01
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zaheerm-lpAnwarboy11, i'm guessing many will tomorrow19:01
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qwerty12zaheerm-lp: :)19:02
zaheerm-lpAnwarboy11, it is for sale in nokia flagship store, london tomorrow19:02
Anwarboy11any nes from Mobilephones direct?19:02
javispedroVDVsx: ta!19:02
StskeepsVDVsx: you are referring to Maemo summit Travel page, not the barcelona one19:02
Stskeepszaheerm-lp: they retracted that though19:02
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VDVsxStskeeps, ups19:02
Anwarboy11i orderd from mpd, havnt even recieved an email to confirm dispatch19:02
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zaheerm-lpAnwarboy11, your only option is to speak to them directly19:03
VDVsxStskeeps, thanks19:03
Anwarboy11ive tried phoning , never ever get a line through19:04
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VDVsx"They should include PS3,Xbox360 & Nintendo Wii emulators!!!" @youtube comment19:04
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mikkovHas anybody got bluetooth pan working?19:05
qwerty12VDVsx: It's YouTube, go figure...19:05
zaheerm-lpVDVsx, you have edited wiki wrong, Tuesday is not 3/12 :)19:05
* VDVsx thinks that 90% of the people that comments on youtube is a bit retard19:05
zaheerm-lpVDVsx, Thursday is :)19:05
VDVsxzaheerm-lp, grrr19:05
* qwerty12 still maintains that the world's retards adopt the comment section on YouTube as a second home19:05
zaheerm-lpfirst home is the long threads on t.m.o about shipping? :)19:06
qwerty12Ooh, good point19:06
VDVsxzaheerm-lp, fixed, thanks :)19:07
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CoreFusion-VDVsx: Is BlueMaemo ready for N900?19:11
lardmansounds dodgy every time ;)19:12
VDVsxCoreFusion-, nop, the new UI is now finished yet :(19:12
qwerty12lardman: Maemo, not "Movie" ;)19:12
VDVsxCoreFusion-, but I'll send a working version to -devel today or tomorrow19:12
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fabricecan anyone with a N900 tell me if the this works : gst-launch v4l2src num-buffers=1 ! video/x-raw-rgb,width=640,height=480,framerate=8/1 ! ffmpegcolorspace ! videoscale ! video/x-raw-yuv, width=320, height=240 ! jpegenc ! filesink location=test.jpg19:13
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zaheerm-lpfabrice, v4l2camsrc is preferred to v4l2src19:14
CoreFusion-VDVsx: Sounds good, I can help testing it out once I get my N90019:14
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fabricezaheerm, ok. Does it capture a frame as expected ?19:15
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zaheermfabrice, not sure will test later...19:15
VDVsxCoreFusion-, Thanks, actually I some testers with MAC OS or PS3 :)19:15
fabricezaheerm, thanks.19:15
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zaheermlooking at pipeline, why are you requesting 640x480 from the camera and not allowing any res?19:15
zaheermor why not ask for 320x240 ?19:16
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CutMeOwnThroatqwerty12, also bear in mind
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fabricezaheerm, just because this is waht works on my N810 and I'm a gstreamer rookie ;)19:16
lardman8,1 won't work19:17
qwerty12CutMeOwnThroat: Hehe19:17
lardman8/1 even19:17
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CutMeOwnThroatqwerty12, the really funny thing seems to be this:
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CoreFusion-VDVsx: Unfortunately I use windoes systems: Win7 / XP (I did think for a brief moment if I dare to put that here :P)19:18
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qwerty12CutMeOwnThroat: I'm looking at - sounds perfect!19:18
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VDVsxCoreFusion-, should work fine with Win :)19:20
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VDVsxqwerty12, lol, good luck with that19:21
lcukCutMeOwnThroat, qwerty12
CutMeOwnThroatqwerty12, that's missing the use of "u" "r" "ur" etc. ... and anyway - if it's filtering away all comments, you could just as well not have looked at them...19:21
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qwerty12CutMeOwnThroat: That's the plan :)19:22
VDVsxlcuk, that's very annoying in some site (eg. endgaget)19:22
infobotVDVsx meant: lcuk, that's very annoying in some sites (eg. endgaget)19:23
qwerty12lcuk: Heh, I don't mind "First!", TBH. Although, I do see its pointlessness...19:23
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CutMeOwnThroatlcuk, but... that's a totally different phenomenon19:25
CutMeOwnThroatbut I do see it'd get old pretty soon if people read things and reacted to each other, wrote insightful comments...19:25
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CutMeOwnThroatso "thank god that doesn't happen because we have youtube"?19:29
CutMeOwnThroatactually considering how forums turn people into morons, you really get a good chuckle out of enders game19:30
CutMeOwnThroatbut that was already in another xkcd19:30
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GiantTalkingCowI've never understood why xkcd is popular, to be honest.19:32
Myrttiyou has faile dthen19:33
Myrttixkcd ♥19:33
MyrttiJoanna ♥19:33
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GiantTalkingCowThe thing is that no one's acted like that on IRC for at least 10 years. WoW, maybe.19:38
Myrttiweird that - I used to get that almost once a month, now that I've quit almost all my irc channels, less19:39
GiantTalkingCowReally? Which network?19:39
* SpeedEvil ponders an ironic comment.19:39
GiantTalkingCowLet's hear it.19:40
SpeedEvilNaah. It'd be udderly tasteless.19:40
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hrwargh.. it is week since Nokia locked cash on my card and still no shipment...19:55
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CoreFusion-where do you live?19:56
lardmanhi hrw19:56
javispedrothey're not shipping DDP units yet. just grabbing the money it seems..19:56
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hrwjavispedro: ddp19:57
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wazdWindows 7 installation on ASUS notebook causes big red ERROR! sign. Fail.19:57
CoreFusion-tell me more19:58
javispedroyeah, not news :)19:58
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hrwwin7... none of my laptops is good enough for it. no disk space20:01
GiantTalkingCowIt's not worthwhile. Actually, Windows hasn't been for years now.20:01
CoreFusion-Win7 is actually quite good20:02
CoreFusion-it's what vista was supposed to be20:02
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GiantTalkingCowIt has a horrible UI designed by monkeys and not enough new features to justify it for desktop use.20:02
hrwCoreFusion-: I have xp home on one lap and xp pro on other20:03
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hrwCoreFusion-: xph one has just 40GB disc...20:03
lardmanhmm, just consumed a whole packet of Pringles, lucky the wife's not here yet to tell me off20:03
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lardmanyay! sorted my dialog problems :)20:05 eating Pringles?20:05
lardmanit helped :)20:05
lardmannah, had to go async20:06
SpeedEvilasync pringles?20:06
lardmaneating while typing20:06
SpeedEvilOnce you pop, you can stop for variable periods?20:06
lardmanno, unfortunately the period length is capped at about 5s20:07
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lardmanso for 90 pringles, you have less than 10min20:07
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* SpeedEvil is eating diet food.20:08
lardmangreen things?20:08
SpeedEvilRoast pork, cabbage, potatos, gravy and applesauce.20:08
lardmanasynchronously too from the looks of it, or do you have a wipe clean kb?20:09
SpeedEvilWith a mini pork pie to start.20:09
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SpeedEvil(I however have lost ~5Kg last month.20:09
SpeedEvilAnd the portion is about half of what I'd usually have.20:09
SpeedEvilA barcode aware diet app would be so cool20:10
lardmanyeah, I'm thinking about cutting back and filling the gap with alcohol20:10
GiantTalkingCowYou know, it's funny... with all sorts of ridiculously fatty foods being popular in the US, the non-dessert pie has never caught on here.20:11
lcuklardman, setup a positive pressure keyboard to keep the crumbs and stuff out20:11
lcukyou might have to wear gloves to code tho cos it will be cold.20:11
lcukat least you can play air hockey with your pen when you are bored20:11
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SpeedEvillcuk: md5sum /dev/zero - problem solved20:12
lardmanhmm, good to see Garage is as quick as ever ;)20:12
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lardmanis the autobuilder broken?20:13
qwerty12lardman: No, it just knew you were about to upload to it20:14
lardmanI'm getting lots of pkg-config errors20:14
lardmanor rather I got earlier today20:14
lardmanI'll try again and see if the pringles have helped20:15
qwerty12lardman: Hint: Build-Depends is there to be updated...20:16
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lardmansounds  like nasty debianisation stuff20:16
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lardmanoh, I need to add those things in there, balls20:17
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lardmanbut really, hildon-1, I can't need a Build-Depends on that can I?20:19
* microlith cheers as all of the holds nokia posted against his account have fallen off20:19
qwerty12^ lardman20:20
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lardmanthis is the problem with guis, too many annoying deps!20:20
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dnearylardman: GUIs, or Debian.20:23
dnearyTake your pick :)20:24
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dnearyReminds me of a joke20:24
lardmandneary: well debian is bad, but if guis can be avoided that is good ;)20:24
dnearyHow do you confuse a Kerryman?20:24
lardmanI don't know20:24
dnearyShow him three shovels, and tell him to take his pick20:24
lardmandneary: how're things?20:24
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dnearyWell, obviously, sense of humour is OK :)20:25
dnearyBusy enough20:25
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dnearyGetting ready for Barcelona20:25
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lardmanI'd love to come but have work stuff on20:25
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dnearyYou should submit mbarcode for suggestions20:25
dnearywe'll send you a report :)20:25
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lardmanshould try to get it into extras-devel first though :p20:26
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ccookeAnyone used a BT keyboard with an n900 yet?20:28
ccooke(and had it work)20:28
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viqccooke: there was some report of someone doing that, yes20:30
ccookeviq: all I've been able to find is someone who got it to work... for letters. No numbers, no task switching...20:31
javispedrothank god it was not something NSFW.20:31
SpeedEviljavispedro: vompletely worksafe20:32
pupnik_javispedro: diagonals ;)20:33
javispedrowork work work20:33
pupnik_also maybe i make a screenshot of one kbd layout20:33
pupnik_showing how it could be used20:34
pupnik_javispedro: do right handed people prefer dpad on  left or right?20:34
viqccooke: well, you didn't specify value of $work ;)20:34
pupnik_right, right?20:34
javispedroi don't have a specific preference. actually, I'm more used to it being on the left.20:35
pupnik_my left thumb has a callous that wilÃl take years to fade20:35
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pupnik_anyway, controls with arrows is nice for some things, impossible for ithers20:37
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aSIMULAterhrm...i got my n900 for my personal use but it has a finnish kb layout20:40
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aSIMULAteranyone know if the german physical keyboard is the same as the dutch english20:40
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aSIMULAteri just can't live without the up and left arrow keys...20:40
aSIMULAterand i could do without the åöä20:40
ShapeshifteraSIMULAter: you can just use a different layout20:41
aSIMULAterwell i know this but i don't like it20:41
ShapeshifterI'll have the same problem.20:41
Shapeshifterafaik only the keyboards where the language doesn't feature any special characters will have the 4-way arrows20:42
Shapeshifterfrench, italian, german, all these have only two arrows20:42
aSIMULAterso german too20:42
Shapeshifterthere might be aftermarket keyboards...20:42
qwerty12_N810aSIMULAter: Learn Finnish and then you will stop thinking those keys are useless20:43
timeless_mbpaSIMULAter: only english-dutch have 4 arrows20:44
timeless_mbpaSIMULAter: i know a bunch of people who want finnish keylayouts20:44
timeless_mbpfind one and trade w/ them :)20:44
aSIMULAterhaluatko että puhuu suomea kaikkille?20:44
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aSIMULAteri can always get öåä via the on screen special character dialog20:45
Shapeshifterwhy dutch?20:45
Shapeshifterdutch doesn't feature any special characters?20:45
javispedroiirc polish has 4 arrows too.20:45
pupnik_omg javispedro orig snes dpad is on left -- ookay20:45
Shapeshiftermh, odd, as polish also has special characters20:45
Shapeshifterł for example20:46
aSIMULAtertimeless: who wants to trade? and WHY :P20:46
Shapeshifteror was that the only one..20:46
timeless_mbpaSIMULAter: well, i think most of them don't have devices at all :)20:46
aSIMULAteroh those ppl :P20:46
Shapeshifteryou can still swap pre-orders :P20:46
aSIMULAteri'm just bummed, this is my very own n900 u know20:46
aSIMULAtermy speechial one20:46
aSIMULAteri like the kb layout of all my other devices20:47
timeless_mbpmine has been on loan for a while now20:47
* qwerty12_N810 throws aSIMULAter a screwdriver20:47
aSIMULAtercan that be done? swap kbs?20:48
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aSIMULAterok well, my husband will take my finnish kb layout and he'll buy a device from teh UK20:48
aSIMULAterso yay20:48
lardmanhow is that maemo-version package supposed to work?20:48
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hardaker2anyone have an opinion on the best vnc server for windows?20:49
lardmansome-fremantle-only-package | maemo-version<=4.020:49
Shapeshifterhardaker2: tightvnc or ultravnc20:50
hardaker2SS: thanks.20:50
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hardaker2tightvnc had the first google hit ;-)20:50
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hardaker2but I prefer real opinions20:50
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* RST38h moos thoughtfully20:52
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RST38hHello, aSIMULAter20:52
aSIMULAterhi RST38h! :D20:52
javispedrowb rst20:54
RST38hheya javis20:54
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aSIMULAterRST38h are u going to ux meets code in barcelona?20:55
timeless_mbpaSIMULAter: yes20:55
RST38haSIMULAter: not really: I am out of vacation days this year + not exactly flush with money20:56
aSIMULAtertimeless u're going?20:57
aSIMULAterRST38h: :/20:57
Shapeshifterlol.... youtube comments are the best20:57
VDVsxRST38h, saw your emus in Nokia's video ?20:57
RST38hVDVsx: No, have they got there already?20:58
VDVsxRST38h, 1 sec20:58
Shapeshifterreally, some people must be really frustrated with their lives for them to write so much hateful stuff20:58
aSIMULAterwhat like 4chan trolls? :P20:58
RST38hShapeshifter: Two words: NO SEX.20:58
Shapeshifterwell, 4chan really is like a zoo of trolls20:58
RST38hBTW, I promised to test Mad Bomber, right? Installing20:59
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qwerty12_N810Extras-devel being a shitpile for anyone else?21:01
RST38hVDVsx: Hm, that looks like MG and iNES21:01
RST38hqwerty: Worksforme21:01
javispedrothere's a clear shot from speccy too21:02
VDVsxRST38h, but they have 'all' in the desktop21:02
RST38hBut it is clear that the guy does not know how to use it21:02
* RST38h has to do docs page similar to EmuSymbian/21:02
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RST38hVDVsx: Mad Bomber works fine, although level numbers look somehow weird21:04
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qwerty12_N810RST38h: Oh, sorry, I was too vague there: Is updating it working for you?21:04
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_|Nix|_Hey! What's up with this: "Failed to fetch  No Hash entry in Release file /var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_extras-devel_dists_fremantle_Release"21:04
qwerty12_N810_|Nix|_ answered my question :)21:05
RST38hah, that one21:05
timeless_mbp_|Nix|_: extras-devel has been dying a lot lately21:05
_|Nix|_qwerty12_N810: Can you answer mine?21:05
_|Nix|_It breaks HAM ...21:05
timeless_mbpmy understanding is that they're waiting for new hardware to save them21:05
_|Nix|_I can't see my installed packages ...21:05
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timeless_mbpyou can't see installed pacakges?21:06
qwerty12_N810_|Nix|_: Extras-devel has a race condition when importing new packages which causes it to mess up. The result? Well, you've already seen it21:06
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infobottimeless_mbp meant: you can't see installed packages?21:06
qwerty12_N810So it sometimes works, and sometimes does not :)21:06
_|Nix|_qwerty12_N810: Gah ...21:06
timeless_mbpand it fails often enough :)21:06
_|Nix|_Alright ... I guess I have my answer :/21:06
qwerty12_N810New servers are really needed. Much of is already going to shit21:07
Shapeshifteronce the n900 is out, I'm betting the "press" like engadget or so, will bash on for being too slow21:08
javispedrooh, come on. give the 770 a bit of resting21:08
timeless_mbpShapeshifter: i thought the n900 was out21:08
RST38hShapeshifter: small fish, compared to lack of capacitive touch screen, MMS, etc21:08
javispedrono portrait...21:09
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Shapeshiftermeh, but it's something for people to nag about21:09
Shapeshifterfor _everyone_ to nag about.21:09
Shapeshifterunlike MMS, which is wanted by a fraction of users.21:09
XisdibikI am so happy MMS is NOT included21:10
Xisdibiknow my sister cant spam my phone with MMS texts21:10
RST38hIf you want to maximize the activity in your blog, you should claim stuff that looks intelligent AND corresponds to what 99% of your readers think21:10
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RST38hThen you get resonance with your readers and more hits =)21:10
RST38hSo, MMS and no-capacitive, and other stuff is perfect for that21:11
VDVsxXisdibik, hehe21:12
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XisdibikShapeshifter, for the people who purchased n900's  its probably a small fraction,  but for the number of phone users in general, id say its not such a small fraction that want MMS,  especially for the US market, where most people still send picture texts instead of email. (why i dont know)21:13
dmj726I don't know many who send picture texts21:13
dmj726...not many who email either though21:13
Xisdibikdmj726, my sister sends enough to count for like half of the US population :/21:13
Xisdibikshe sends roughly 10,000 MMS's a month21:14
qwerty12_N810Xisdibik: I bet most just want it to say "My phone can send MMSes!"21:14
Xisdibik(not all to me)21:14
dmj726Actually I don't even text21:14
aSIMULAter10k wow21:14
dmj726THat's ridiculous21:14
Xisdibikyea 10k, if im lucky i send like 200-300 in a month21:14
javispedroyour telco's ceo comes to visit your sister regularly?21:14
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javispedroand thank her, watch her health....21:15
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Xisdibikjavispedro, he does not, sprint doesnt care about its customers21:15
aSIMULAterhow many of those mms are multiple sent to the same person by her cat or dog by accident stepping on the send button21:15
dmj726A web browser and a dataplan would change my habits though21:15
Xisdibikjavispedro, and hes making the same amount on her than anyone else, she she pays for unlimited texting21:15
ShapeshifterXisdibik: uhm, she sends an MMS every 4 minutes of her life?21:15
Shapeshifter4.32 to be precise?21:15
XisdibikaSIMULAter, none,  but she does send the same MMS to multiple people21:16
RST38hhow much is her bill?21:16
dmj726I would actually get kinda pissed at someone who sent me multiple mms messages a day21:16
XisdibikRST38h, like less than 100 a month21:16
RST38hdo people still talk to her?21:16
XisdibikRST38h, my mom does :P21:16
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* javispedro can't believe FN is actually trying to teach people to use sbox!21:17
javispedroand autotools! OMG!21:17
RST38hnot people, commercial symbian developers21:17
Stskeepsto which sbox is actually considered sane21:18
RST38hwell, I remember scanning the forums there21:18
RST38hseen lots and lots of Indian guys who programmed j2me all their (short?) lives until the client asked them to do something for S6021:19
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RST38hso they go to FN and they are
qwerty12_N810RST38h: Seen -developers lately?21:19
RST38hqwerty: What? Same crap?21:19
RST38hqwerty: Our friend sarower found -developers?21:20
qwerty12_N810RST38h: Not sarower, but just look at some of the questions being asked...21:20
javispedro-developers' was invaded already?21:20
RST38hqwerty: Actually I have seen the same in Android forums when it was just released21:20
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RST38hqwerty: Quiet Indians/Chinese politely asking how they are supposed to code a video decoder21:21
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RST38hqwerty: At some point, Google started moderating all such messages away because they all wanted native code option21:21
qwerty12_N810Heh, figures..21:22
javispedrooh, the thing's not even released and the glib version it uses is already outdated :)21:22
RST38hthat tells more about glib...21:22
Stskeepsmaemo glib has always been outdated21:22
Stskeepsthey're catching up nicely though21:22
Shapeshifteris there some way of running fennec or the "maemo browser" or whatever you call it in scratchbox?21:22
javispedroyes. even though why would you want it?21:23
qwerty12_N810Shapeshifter: The browser shipped with the N900 can be installed with "fakeroot apt-get install maemo-apps maemo-binaries" (after adding the nokia-binaries repo, of course)21:23
qwerty12_N810Unless you really do mean Fennec21:24
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Shapeshifterjavispedro: I'm thinking of trying out twaeltis google maps adaptation and see what I could hack along. Could do it without scratchbox and everything, but it would be nice to try it in the maemo browser.21:24
Shapeshifterqwerty12_N810: thanks.21:24
qwerty12_N810My shitty experiences with Fennec on the N800 and N810 have scarred me for life so I daren't try it on the N90021:24
* Stskeeps watches yet another cross-compiler compilation go past21:24
Shapeshifterqwerty12_N810: but isn't the maemo browser very similar to fennec?21:25
* lcuk aims at the compilation whizzing past and pulls the trigger21:25
lardmanhmm, my n810 is not wanting to boot21:25
ShapeshifterE: Couldn't find package maemo-apps21:25
* javispedro watches the compilation die and stskeeps lose hair21:25
GeneralAntillesand nokia-binaries21:25
* lardman heads for a power supply again21:26
qwerty12_N810Shapeshifter: I would say "no", but I'm not in any position to compare21:26
qwerty12_N810Er, yeah21:26
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Stskeepslardman: you didn't flash zimage did you? :P21:27
javispedrothat would be very evil and immoral21:27
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lardmanStskeeps: nah, just looks like the battery is too flat, not got round to looking at that yet21:27
VDVsxGeneralAntilles, you've your documents this time ? :P21:28
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GeneralAntillesVDVsx, hell yeah!21:28
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GeneralAntillesI still needs to talk zerojay into coming, but if not I'll probably want to room with you.21:29
GeneralAntillesJaffa's passed many of the cabal's secrets on to you, but I've still got a few I never passed to him. *eg*21:30
dnearyRevdKathy's coming too21:31
Shapeshiftermhh, I didn't even know it was possible to install the nokia apps in scratchbox21:31
Shapeshifterneat. Got a look at the calendar, already liking it.21:31
VDVsxdneary, btw, did you approach ossinpena (or something like that)21:31
lardmanyay! using a proper charger it's booted, ~lart crappy phone chargers21:31
dnearyVDVsx, Yeah, ossipena and smarsh21:31
* lardman goes back to cooking21:31
dnearyBoth unabailable21:31
VDVsxdneary, :)21:32
dnearyGone! Wish Ireland good luck21:32
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javispedroI call the N810 resell syndrome. So you buy the N900 thinking to someday sell the N810, and it suddenly just fails.21:32
VDVsxdneary, good luck21:32
VDVsxdneary, now wish the same for me :P21:32
qwerty12_N810VDVsx: Bad luck21:32
javispedroAverage luck ;)21:33
lpotterjavispedro: its jealousy21:33
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VDVsxour coach is a asshole, but I think we'll pass :P21:33
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javispedrogoogle's going to use connman in google chrome os21:35
javispedro(and clutter...)21:35
VDVsxjavispedro, because of the name, I bet :P21:35
qwerty12_N810Google Chrome OS sounds like a joke, even21:35
javispedroit'll be their pet linux distro, using a bit more of the usual gnu userspace.21:36
petterihopefully they provide nice arm port of the chrome browser so we get it also runnin on the n900 :)21:36
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dmj726I'm not really excited about chrome21:38
Xisdibikpetteri, only if they trade us by making a nice desktop version of Modest,  available for Windows aswell as Linux, and ill throw in OSX as a requirement to appease the apple fanatics ;D21:38
luke-jrpetteri: pfft, Chrome is nothing special21:38
dmj726...Chrome OS seems kinda pointless when you have Ubuntu21:39
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dmj726The Chrome browser is nice even though I don't use it.21:39
qwerty12_N900Jesus, I hate using Modest on the N900; I'll be fucked if I ever use it on a desktop21:39
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dmj726It makes the Firefox devs try harder21:39
luke-jrChrome is fail21:39
luke-jrFirefox is fail too :)21:39
dmj726and you use what now?21:40
luke-jrKonqueror21:40 there a maemo port of that?21:40
luke-jrdoubt it.21:40
luke-jrpart of KDE21:40
Xisdibikluke-jr, are you using a KDE distro of linux then?21:41
luke-jrXisdibik: I'm using my own OS built on the Gentoo meta-distro21:41
Xisdibikluke-jr, running KDE? :P21:42
luke-jrthough on my N810, I use Arora instead of Konqueror21:42
Xisdibikdoes your N810 have KDE installed on it?21:42
mavhcchrome is designed to be the OS, can kill and restart tabs instead of apps, see tab ram/cpu usage instead of apps, etc21:42
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luke-jryes, my N810 runs Gentoo with KDE 4.321:42
timeless_mbpaSIMULAter: i've got a coworker with an official english layout21:42
timeless_mbpwho will gladly swap with you for your finnish layout21:43
lbtooh... "Ordnance Survey maps to go free online"
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SpeedEvillbt: that may not - quite - mean what you might at first think.21:43
Xisdibikluke-jr, wow you have it running on your N810, impressive,  what do you use for your standard desktop or laptop or netbook (depending on what u got)21:43
lbtjust reading... :)21:43
mavhclbt: +"some"21:43
SpeedEvillbt: There are all sorts of possible get-outs. For example 'free' raster maps, that you can't cache, or derive data from.21:43
SpeedEvillbt: Are you in the UK?21:44
luke-jrXisdibik: same.21:44
SpeedEvillbt: Consulatation come december - remember to participate.21:44
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lbt"down to a scale of 1:10,000"21:44
* lbt wonders what the scale of the curve of a circle is...21:45
SpeedEvillbt: OS _really_ doesn't want to do this - the government is pressing them - it goes 180 degrees against their previous position.21:45
lbtmaybe enforced jaggies in the render ;)21:45
SpeedEvillbt: 1cm=100m21:45
mavhcit's either free or it's too annoying to bother with21:46
SpeedEvilmavhc: Ideally, it's free enough to import en-mass into openstreetmap.21:46
SpeedEvilAnd then tidy it up and add stuff.21:46
lbtSpeedEvil: <grin>   'twas a philosophical question.... the scale of vector data is meaningless21:46
SpeedEvillbt: ah21:46
SpeedEvilI came up with about 6 ways they could do it that would make that impossible, while sticking to the letter of the announcement.21:47
lbtI've followed it lightly for years...21:47
mavhcdon't let them know21:47
lbtI fully expect it to fail dismally21:48
SpeedEvillbt: also - 1:10000 may or may not be an invention of that report21:48
lbtso long as OSM find a way to rip it21:48
SpeedEvillbt: well - lacking that - we're currently scanning 1958 maps21:48
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SpeedEvilWhich actually are quite good.21:48
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lbtSpeedEvil: well, mobile GPS crowd are beginning to get it... rally us in December21:49
luke-jrlbt: the scale is meaningless, but the accuracy is not21:49
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lbtluke-jr: *nod* only sensible interpretation ... "the artefacts normally represented on a 1:10,000 scale render"21:50
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SpeedEvilThe more subtle effects of this are that it frees up _lots_ of other data.21:52
SpeedEvilFor example - I recently requested from my local council map data on their public toilets.21:52
SpeedEvilThey responded that this information is partially derived from OS data - so that I can't use it without an OS license.21:53
SpeedEvilSame with data on rights of ways, and house plans.21:53
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mavhcwhat do other countries do? do they have government map makers?21:55
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SpeedEvilIt depends21:56
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SpeedEvilThe US for example - pretty much gives the raw data out free.21:56
luke-jrthey do?21:56
SpeedEvilThey vary from this extreme - to the UKs extreme, which is that everyone needs to pay for maps, even governmental bodies.21:56
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SpeedEvilActually - china would be the extreme - non-governmental map making is illegal.21:57
SpeedEvilluke-jr: yes.21:57
pwnguinwell, tiger is kinda junk21:58
pwnguinits a good start21:58
pwnguinbut dont go trying to navigate turn by turn with it21:58
SpeedEvilpwnguin: I fixed up much of the southern part of Colorado Springs.21:59
SpeedEvilpwnguin: (for OSM)21:59
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SpeedEvilSome of the errors are _wierd_21:59
pwnguindid we talk in #osm?22:00
* cosmo hates autobuilder22:00
pwnguini vaguely recall showing someone from col springs a tiger modifications layout22:00
cosmoi think i'll just make my own repository..22:00
pwnguinanyways, i wonder if its possible to automate the annotation of OSM with gps traces22:01
SpeedEvilTIGER data has wackiness like being topologically correct in terms of roads - roads don't cross - but so inaccurately surveyed that transforming from the TIGER map to match ariel imagery is more akin to doing a jigsaw, than actual simple rectification.22:01
SpeedEvilpwnguin: It's a hard problem.22:01
pwnguinmy dad did some census work a few months ago22:01
pwnguinSpeedEvil: i suspect its hard but solvable, and that google did it via ridefinder22:02
SpeedEvilpwnguin: Perhaps.22:02
pwnguinyou know22:03
RST38hSamsung is sponsoring Enlightenment22:03
pwnguinthe n900 has wifi and gps built in22:03
pwnguinwardriving app22:03
* RST38h wonders why22:03
luke-jrdoes it actually work? :p22:03
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luke-jrpwnguin: I use my N810 primarily for wardriving on the rare occasion the GPS works22:04
SpeedEvilpwnguin: And camera. It makes an interesting OSM platform - it'd only be more idreal if it had a compass in it.22:04
pwnguinRST38h: i think samsung's making a mobile linux platform of their own22:04
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SpeedEvilpwnguin: Well - a compass, and a laser rangefinder.22:04
pwnguinand a gigantic ball22:04
pwnguinwhat's the range finder for?22:05
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RST38hpwguin: I am just not sure Enlightenment is what they are going to use there22:05
RST38hSounds more like something for their netbooks22:05
pwnguinRST38h: perhaps they figure its a market differentiator22:05
pwnguinnobody else touches e22:05
SpeedEvilpwnguin: Point the laser at something, get the exact range, the compass tells you where it is WRT the GPS.22:05
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StskeepsRST38h: raster works there22:05
SpeedEvilpwnguin: Means you can stand in one spot, and map the surrounding kilometer or so.22:05
SpeedEvilpwnguin: Without walking to each feature, or using ariel imagery.22:06
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pwnguinSpeedEvil: you have a flash22:08
pwnguinyou could fake it22:08
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pwnguinanyways, i need to reorder via dell22:10
pwnguinif they take my coupon22:10
Venomrushdell still doing the n900?22:10
Venomrushthought it got taken down22:10
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RST38hSts: raster works for samsung?!?22:11
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SpeedEvilpwnguin: Not easily, unless the flash can be PWMd a lot faster than I suspect.22:11
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SpeedEvilpwnguin: Plus, you'd need to integrate over a lot of frames, and I suspect the clocks are not good enough to be jitter-free over the required periods.22:12
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StskeepsRST38h: afaik22:14
StskeepsRST38h: feel free to ask him, hangs out in #mer at times :P22:14
RST38hSts: Weird =)22:14
* RST38h wonders what would Raster do for Samsung22:14
Stskeepslimo related stuff i think22:14
Stskeepsand not driving limos22:14
fernando_rasterizing vectors for the samsung marketing dept.22:15
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Stskeepsyour n900 blew up in your face, penguinbait?22:17
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fernando_join #mer22:17
qwerty12_N810It's a trap22:17
fernando_/ is the worst part to mistype in an irc command22:19
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pupnik_ Flandry new user testing uqm - tons of feedback22:22
pupnik_great stuff22:23
pupnik_ /join #uqmfeed22:23
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* GeneralAntilles wonders if anybody has picked an N900 up from a flagship store.22:25
w00t_they un-released them in the uk at least, GeneralAntilles :)22:25
timelesswoot: eh?22:26
timelessanyone near chicago, il?22:26
w00t_timeless: assuming that was me (zero zero, not oh oh), they announced they were going to be selling them today on twitter/facebook, then changed their minds today, and removed both announcements22:26
fernando_plan to check the flagship store this weekend or so22:26
fernando_(not that I can buy it right now, but yeah)22:27
timelessfernando: cool22:27
Shapeshifterdid you lot notice the konami code on facebook? I just realised that they could pull off some quite clever statistical research with this kind of thing. They would be dumb if they didn't! You could easily track who enters the code where, and see how such information distributes over facebook, and how fast! It's ingenious.22:27
ShapeshifterI'd love to look at the data.22:27
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timelesswoot, :(22:27
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timelessi can see the difference fwiw, but typing from an n900 doesn't mean that i want to express it22:28
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GeneralAntillesWe really need to bind a tab.22:28
timelessdown with hardware keyboards!22:29
derfWorks great in irssi.22:29
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timelessdoes the ukeyboard team irc?22:29
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wirelessdreamertimeless: i'm in chicago, but i'm waiting to get one from amazon for $510 instead of $65022:32
w00t_timeless: ah, you're forgiven then ;)22:33
courmischheck, $650 is already dirt cheap compared to 650€ here22:33
wirelessdreamer$510 is still really expensive to the wife22:33
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Venomrushhere in the UK, people are getting it for 30% off retail price22:34
Venomrushretail price here is £50022:34
timelesswireless: ahp, she'll just have to take it out of your hide22:34
* microlith wonders if amazon orders will be filled before nokiaUSA preorders22:34
toggles_wwirelessdreamer: sell your wii, makes it $300 ;-)22:35
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timelessspeaking of uk22:36
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timelessi'm planning to be stranded there on 12/3122:36
Anprhello guys22:36
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timelessanyone have suggestions?22:36
lcukyeah, dont be22:36
toggles_wtimeless: burough markets for lunch22:36
lcuktoggles_w, o_O22:37
Anpri wanted to ask about this new update for n900 which was released reasently22:37
timelesslcuk: aww g, thanks22:37
Anprdo you know what exactly did they update ?22:37
lcuklol which part of uk you in22:37
qwerty12_N900timeless: Don't speak in that foreign language that you call English22:37
Milo-But I like Engrish22:37
timelesslcuk: 8md expect to use a train to move to whichever place people recommend22:37
qwerty12_N900Milo: It's worse: He speaks American "English"22:38
timelesshrm, Fn-fail22:38
SpeedEvilVenomrush: ~50%22:38
Milo-ah, I see where the problem might have occured.22:38
Anprguys ?22:38
timelessanpr: so22:38
lcukproblem with new year is it depends on your own taste22:38
lcukand whether the weather works22:38
timelessyou're comparing the summit prerelease with sales, right?22:39
Robot101timeless: new year is big in Edinburgh, fireworks, street parties, pubs open very late, etc.22:39
timelesskinda pointless22:39
Robot101also scotland is cool22:39
Robot101weather not great :)22:39
Anprtimeless i just wondered that did they update22:39
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timelessanpr: i'd expect virtually everything22:39
JaffaVenomrush: aha, you're here :)22:39
timelessperhaps not the kernel22:39
qwerty12_N900Oh, Generalantilles, I've got an FBReader that works with the volume keys, if you want it. I needed a CHM viewer.22:39
Anprso it could mean that they could be almost ready to stock n900 ?22:40
timelessalthough that's supposed to be in one of these releases22:40
suihkulokkihrmh, the telepathy-extras* and account-extras* packages need more userfriendly names22:40
timelessanpr: the image we offered is the official sales imagbe22:40
infobottimeless meant: anpr: the image we offered is the official sales image22:40
Robot101timeless: central london at new year is just too much for me, I found. everywhere is totally totally rammed full, streets and streets of people, mounted police, strange one-way crowd control, can't get anywhere to see fireworks along the river unless you go there from like 12pm onwards22:40
Robot101suihkulokki: suggestions gratefully accepted :)22:40
Anprwhich image do mean ?22:40
Anprdo you mean* ?22:40
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N900, !!!22:41
timeless42-11 i think22:41
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N900, that'd make my week.22:41
Robot101Anpr: the new upgrade, is the one which is being shopped... they started going out on sale last tuesday22:41
Jaffaqwerty12_N900: cool. Can you unfullscreen it? Using Conny's toggle button would be cool22:41
infobotRobot101 meant: Anpr: the new upgrade, is the one which is being shipped... they started going out on sale last tuesday22:41
timelessactually, that probably has cgroups, which means even the kernel changes22:41
AnprRobot101 which country do you have in mind ?22:41
Anpri am just confused..22:42
timelessrobot: poke me w/ the deb names when i get home22:42
Anpri've so many different topics and reports in internet..22:42
qwerty12_N900Jaffa: I have no intentions on "Fremantleizing" it (not for me to do), but I do require, at least, working volume keys within the app :)22:42
Robot101timeless: cgroups policy leaves a little to be desired... :(22:42
timelessanpr: we(Nokia) officially started selling last week or whatever22:42
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timelessrobot: cgroups is better than no cgroups22:42
timelessmy image is presummit and i can miss calls22:43
timeless.query anpr22:43
Robot101timeless: yes, but it was half-baked to push into the sales image IMO22:43
GeneralAntillesJaffa, I bound F to fullscreen and R to rotate.22:43
timelessit was required22:43
GeneralAntillesRobot101, Telepathy Haze. The the short description should tell you what services it provides.22:43
JaffaGeneralAntilles: ah, cool22:43
Jaffaqwerty12_N900: well, the author's not showing much intention AFAICT22:44
GeneralAntillesCan somebody @Nokia go hit Misha?22:44
Robot101timeless: yes, but it could've been done differently/better22:44
qwerty12_N900Jaffa: Quim should go smack him. He's a Nokia employee, and FBReader is on the Stars program22:44
JaffaGeneralAntilles: Any thoughts on "Maemo Weekly News" (aka "someone else read tmo so I don't have to")22:45
JaffaOh, he's a Nokian?22:45
GeneralAntillesJaffa, love it, that's approximately where I tried to go with the Highlights.22:45
GeneralAntillesBut it's too much work for one person.22:45
JaffaGeneralAntilles: agreed22:45
GeneralAntillesMishaS, yeah.22:45
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JaffaGeneralAntilles: I disagree with VDVsx that anyone should be able to contribute directly, although suggesting stuff makes sense22:46
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N900, this of course means I may not have to kill myself.22:47
qwerty12_N900Glad to hear it =)22:47
PaulFertserHey folks :) I've a question wrt deblet. After compiling 2.6.30 with proper framebuffer console support and hardcoded (i assume there's no way to patch the bootloader's cmdline so i had to patch the kernel to ignore that ATAG) compiled-in cmdline i'm still unable to get Debian working :( The X doesn't start, hell with it, it can be fixed but the device turns itself off after ~65 seconds. I assume that's RETU watchdog but how should it be properly handle22:48
PaulFertser... I tried apt-get install watchdog and ensured i have RETU_WD compiled in but the result is the same. Any suggestions? :)22:48
VDVsxJaffa, I don't meant to say directly, my idea was also suggest stuff, but in a very easy way22:48
lbtPaulFertser: deblet... is that still alive?22:48
StskeepsPaulFertser: deblet died over a year ago22:48
StskeepsPaulFertser: i am interested in how much is working with 2.6.30 though22:49
PaulFertserStskeeps: i want to run debian natively.22:49
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lbtPaulFertser: do you care about strictly Debian22:49
PaulFertserStskeeps: and i can't tell you the answer since the device just powers itself off :(22:49
lbtor is pretty much raw ubuntu OK ?22:49
PaulFertserlbt: not really, i care to not run maemo.22:49
lbtyou need Mer :)22:49
StskeepsPaulFertser: use a flasher and enable rd mode, disable watchdogs22:49
suihkulokkiPaulFertser: there are multiple watchdogs on the n8x022:49
JaffaVDVsx: ah cool. If collection is mostly done by multiple peeps posting on a single Twitter account, suggestions could be an @... to it22:49
VDVsxGeneralAntilles, are you sure ? is that the guy helping Quim ?22:49
PaulFertserStskeeps: disabled wd's except for retu.22:50
PaulFertsersuihkulokki: indeed.22:50
GeneralAntillesVDVsx, am I sure about what?22:50
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PaulFertsersuihkulokki: but i got no schematics and no description :(22:50
StskeepsPaulFertser: well disable retu rd too :P22:50
VDVsxGeneralAntilles, mishas22:50
Stskeepser, wd22:50
suihkulokkiPaulFertser: have you tried asking linux-omap mailing list?22:50
* Jaffa 'll take the idea to blog, -community and tmo tomorrow22:50
PaulFertserStskeeps: tried that, turns off even faster.22:50
GeneralAntillesVDVsx, there's always the chance he may have moved on, but he was with Nokia last time I checked.22:50
PaulFertsersuihkulokki: nope, but i tried googling extensively :)22:51
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VDVsxGeneralAntilles, if I recall correctly he's from the same company as andre__22:51
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PaulFertserBTW, i'm really disappointed with Nokia, too many obstacles for everything... :(22:51
suihkulokkiPaulFertser: try asking, there are people on there omap kernel list who at least have run the n800 with mainlinish kernels22:51
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GeneralAntillesFor "everything"?22:52
PaulFertserAny news about N900 host-mode? Is it really never ever anyhow working? Or just an external power needed or what?22:52
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StskeepsPaulFertser: are you booting straight to SD?22:52
Stskeepsor through initfs22:52
PaulFertsersuihkulokki: i'm not running mainline, i'm running omap kernel from their repo, just like described in the popular blog post.22:53
PaulFertserStskeeps: straight to SD. debugging initfs scripts is too much trouble without proper console :(22:53
VDVsxGeneralAntilles, I'm right:
VDVsxGeneralAntilles, so maybe andre__ can help you on that :P22:54
timeless_mbpso, people who were privmsg'ing me22:54
timeless_mbpplease switch to here.22:54
timeless_mbpa few notes...22:54
timeless_mbpNokia is a business. Microsoft is a business.22:54
GeneralAntillesVDVsx, er, wrong person.22:54
qwerty12_N900VDVsx: mikhas != MishaS22:54
timeless_mbpNokia gave out device loans to roughly 300 people who it invited to Maemo Summit22:54
timeless_mbpMicrosoft gave out free lightweight laptop to i don't know how many people22:54
timeless_mbpwho came to the PDC this week (?)22:55
timeless_mbpnow those people paid to attend, but i'm sure the laptop is worth it22:55
VDVsxGeneralAntilles, ah, sorry, I asked you if is the guy helping Quim :P22:55
GeneralAntillesVDVsx, I missed the context.22:55
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: happen to know how to do something at usb hotplug in osol? need to cat a file to /dev/printers/0 at it showing up22:55
PaulFertsertimeless_mbp: probably you know any definitive info about N900 usb host mode? Can you please share?22:55
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VDVsxGeneralAntilles, ah that's the FBreader dev righ ?22:55
timeless_mbpStskeeps: sorry, nope22:55
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timeless_mbpPaulFertser: i work on software, specifically the web browser22:56
timeless_mbpanyway microsoft is greedy22:56
PaulFertsertimeless_mbp: ah, ok. I thought that's just so much important that everybody who can knows about that. Sorry for bothering.22:56
timeless_mbpwhy would a business give away laptops?22:56
timeless_mbpbecause it was giving them away to developers who will write cool software22:56
CShadowRunI assume that maemo updates itself? (Maybe even with apt?)22:57
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timeless_mbpand that software will run on microsoft's platform and it will drive sales22:57
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timeless_mbpCShadowRun: maemo tells you when updates are available22:57
timeless_mbpyou choose to update or not22:57
timeless_mbpyou can micromanage to some extent22:57
CShadowRunShiney, is it apt? :D22:57
timeless_mbpjust as you can with windows22:57
PaulFertsersuihkulokki: so do you know anything particular about the retu watchdog? Does it reboot or power off the device? Are there any other watchdogs that do power off?22:57
timeless_mbpit's apt w/ slightly different rules22:57
timeless_mbpanyway... Nokia is also greedy22:57
CShadowRunslightly different rules?22:57
timeless_mbpwe give away loaner devices to people who we hope will develop software for *our* platform22:58
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timeless_mbpand thus drive sales for *our* platform22:58
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Anprguys i know it will be a silly question, but i'm just a simple user, i don't know anything about programming and etc.. i just wanted to ask how the things is going with n900 and what's your opinion of it. I just found that n900 could be a great device for communications like skype and etc22:58
timeless_mbpbusiness do things because there's a business case for doing it.22:58
timeless_mbpAnpr: skype integration is awesome22:58
timeless_mbpbut a word of warning:22:58
timeless_mbproaming in foreign countries can be expensive22:58
PaulFertserAnpr: imho communications withi skype can't be great. I think nokia is doing the wrong thing offering skype support :(22:58
timeless_mbpand VoIP will *not* save you22:58
* timeless_mbp got an incredibly high phone bill recently22:59
suihkulokkiPaulFertser: I think the all reboot.. if you are experiencing poweroff it might be due to overheating (if you have no power managment at all)22:59
CShadowRunAnpr although i don't own one, it looks like it does all that stuff out of the box, and i know WINE is porting to the ARM architecture, so before long, you may be able to run Skype 4 for Windows on the N900 if you wanted, which would be fun22:59
timeless_mbpCShadowRun: um22:59
timeless_mbpwine is wine-arm22:59
CShadowRunthey already did it?22:59
PaulFertsersuihkulokki: overheating of what? And can it be felt by holding the device in hands? I did and i felt nothing bad.22:59
timeless_mbpi doubt skype4-arm-wince is something you can find lying around22:59
Anprhmm timeless i am from United Kingdom and i think it's possible to get free mobile internet for 5quid per month23:00
CShadowRuntimeless, nah you'd run the windows version under wine23:00
CShadowRuni've done it on ubuntu, it nearly works :P23:00
timeless_mbpCShadowRun: um...23:00
* timeless_mbp ponders23:00
Anprso if you call from you n900 to another skype is it free ?23:00
timeless_mbpis there a faq for this?23:00
timeless_mbpi think i've explained it before23:00
timeless_mbpAnpr: plus data carrier costs23:00
suihkulokkiPaulFertser: not neccesarily felt on hand23:00
SpeedEvilAnpr: only if you have an existing contract - 5/mp23:00
timeless_mbpskype is skype23:01
timeless_mbpthe plans don't change because the hardware changes23:01
timeless_mbpskype to 1800/0800 is also free23:01
PaulFertsersuihkulokki: so what part can be overheated at all and how does it manage to calm instantly (since i'm able to boot it again without a delay)?23:01
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* timeless_mbp ponders23:01
CShadowRunhaha lots of pondering23:02
timeless_mbpCShadowRun: are you familiar w/ russian or turkish?23:02
* PaulFertser ponders whenever he hears about the fucking proprietary spying shitty skype and official support for that :(23:02
CShadowRunjust english :(23:02
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* CShadowRun hates skype too23:02
timeless_mbpoh, ok, how about miles and yards?23:02
qwerty12_N900timeless_mbp: Would being able to say "bitch" in Russian count?23:02
CShadowRunI try and keep to SIP when possible :D23:03
timeless_mbpqwerty12_N900: not even close23:03
PaulFertsertimeless_mbp: i know russian fyi23:03
timeless_mbpPaulFertser: this is for an explanation, if the target doesn't understand the space, i can't use it23:03
CShadowRuntimeless_mbp you never said why you can't run skype 4 under wine on the N900 :P23:03
timeless_mbpCShadowRun: do you know about miles and yards?23:03
suihkulokkiPaulFertser: no idea, I just remember someone complaining of such issues23:03
timeless_mbpok, so... you probably have some yard sticks lying around23:04
PaulFertsertimeless_mbp: do you need any translation or what? ;)23:04
SpeedEvilCShadowRun: wine+qemu23:04
timeless_mbpPaulFertser: no. listen.23:04
timeless_mbpin the country where i currently live, we have these strange sticks that can measure to roughly a foot23:04
timeless_mbpbut sadly there are no markings for inches23:04
suihkulokkirandom uneducated guess: perhaps it just thinks it's overheating23:04
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timeless_mbpCShadowRun: your stick *probably* can measure inches and centimeters/millimeters23:04
timeless_mbpbut you could probably also get a stick which can only measure inches/feet/yards23:05
CShadowRuntimeless_mbp yea in uk we usually use cm/mm23:05
timeless_mbpoh brother.23:05
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CShadowRunwhy are you asking? :S23:05
timeless_mbpwell, you can imagine that such a stick could exist, right?23:05
* qwerty12_N900 's stick can measure lots of inches23:05
CShadowRunof course23:05
* qwerty12_N900 hides23:05
timeless_mbpimagine someone gives you instructions for building a house23:05
timeless_mbpand they give you the instructions in inches23:05
timeless_mbpin addition to giving you the instructions in inches23:06
timeless_mbpthe instructions include things like "use the prefabricated tile"23:06
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timeless_mbpwine is a way to solve the problem of the prefabricated tile23:07
timeless_mbpbut it won't solve the problem that your instructions were in inches instead of cm23:07
lardmanbut it will stop you caring ;)23:07
CShadowRunI just went and read it on the mailing list, wine doesn't do processor emulation23:07
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CShadowRunSo you need to get qemu involved23:07
CShadowRunis that what your trying to tell me? :P23:07
CShadowRunok so qemu+dsl+wine = skype 4 on n90023:08
* lardman sees lots of curly errors23:08
* RST38h sighs23:08
* RST38h sighs a lot lately23:08
timeless_mbpCShadowRun: you planning to run out of memory?23:08
CShadowRuntimeless_mbp the N900 has less than 16mb of memory?23:08
timeless_mbpnote that if you use qemu you could use wine-w32 instead of wine-arm23:08
PaulFertsertimeless_mbp: was that all your long explanation just to tell us x86 is not arm???23:08
GeneralAntillesThe Skype codecs are also quite heavy.23:08
timeless_mbpand in fact, i'd almost *expect* you to use wine-w32 instead of wine-arm23:09
CShadowRunyea, wine-arm won't do it23:09
timeless_mbpso the existence of wine-arm doesn't help you an iota23:09
timeless_mbpPaulFertser: just CShadowRun23:09
timeless_mbpfor you i'd have used something else23:09
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timeless_mbpi'd have to go find the language variant which uses Latin instead of Cyrillic23:09
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CShadowRuntimeless_mbp i was just saying it would be possible, i didn't say it would be practical :P23:10
PaulFertsertimeless_mbp: it's obvious wine can't help run x86 binary on arm without any explanations...23:10
timeless_mbpPaulFertser: CShadowRun didn't seem to get it23:10
CShadowRuni do get it?23:10
timeless_mbpyou do _now_23:10
timeless_mbpbut when i kept saying <no>, you didn't seem to23:11
PaulFertserCome on, can anyone please tell me where can i find anybody who understands n810 on low-level enough to help me diagnose "powering off" problem?23:12
GeneralAntillesI wouldn't bother with Deblet, personally.23:13
GeneralAntillesMer is a much better option.23:13
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PaulFertserGeneralAntilles: does it run with new kernel?23:13
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lardmanah, the wonders of being able to ssh into a device over wifi23:15
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PaulFertserThe new kernel matters just because i need to use an external cardreader to read CF (a necessity since it's the format used by a professional tacheometer) and .21 just doesn't cut it.23:16
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PaulFertserhellwolf-n810: hey, could you please tell me what kernel version do you use?23:21
PaulFertserGeneralAntilles: and btw, can Mer just use Debian repositories for all non-system-specific stuff?23:22
Stskeepsit uses ubuntu stuff yeah23:23
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PaulFertserStskeeps: what makes anyone choose ubuntu over debian? I thought that ubuntu is mostly an inferior debian fork aimed to adding useless stuff and removing some useful.23:24
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* GeneralAntilles groans23:24
StskeepsPaulFertser: in this particular case? armv5 vs armv4, and upstart support in debian when we started was horrible23:24
Stskeeps(yes, it wasn't a matter of it looking shiny)23:24
PaulFertserStskeeps: sounds somewhat reasonable, i agree. But the distro policy makes me feel sick...23:25
* lcuk passes paul a bucket23:26
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lcukhey there ciroip \o23:26
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ciroipbuonasera signor lcuk23:29
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* Klowner pokes amazon with a pointy stick23:31
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PaulFertserStskeeps: so, could you please tell me the status of mer compatibility with recent kernels?23:32
SpeedEvilKlowner: Your pointy stick got delivered?23:32
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StskeepsPaulFertser: frankly i'm not sure - i guess on n8x0 we've been lucky that we had DSME for the watchdogs to do the dirty work for us. luke-jr might have some ideas23:34
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Lorthirkciroip: italian?23:34
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KlownerSpeedEvil: yep, now just waiting on the N90023:34
Klownerfree super saver shipping on pointy sticks though, which is nice23:35
RST38hN900s are being delayed by 3 months23:35
Klownerto what? March?23:35
RST38hNokia shipped the entire first batch to Nicaragua, to replace failing OLPCs.23:35
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Klowneraw man23:35
StskeepsRST38h: :twitch:23:36
ciroipLorthirk: si23:36
Klownerspoiled little nicaraguin brats23:36
Lorthirkme too, but i think we should speak english here :)23:36
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PaulFertserStskeeps: if only i knew more details about the watchdogs...23:37
Stskeepsdsme code is published, that kicks them23:38
PaulFertserTo really diagnose the problem i'd probably need to know about every particular watchdog and its effect on the system. :|23:39
GeneralAntillesThere are 323:40
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GeneralAntillesOne for when important system processes die, one for when the system goes into 100% CPU mode for too long and one for something else.23:40
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PaulFertserGeneralAntilles: I've heard about it but it's not exactly telling anything about their timeouts, effect on the system and the way they're connected to the SoC. :(23:41
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GeneralAntillesWhy not just disable them all and move on?23:42
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N900, it doesn't work.23:44
qwerty12_N900Generalantilles: Works here23:44
PaulFertserGeneralAntilles: i've read one blog post about the retu watchdog and it says it can't be effectively disabled, it reboot the system unconditionally after ~60 seconds if you try.23:45
GeneralAntillesPaulFertser, then go look at the DSME code to see how to kick it.23:45
PaulFertserGeneralAntilles: ok, thanks for the pointer.23:46
GeneralAntillesPaulFertser, Stskeeps pointed that one out a while ago.23:46
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GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N900, you're such an evil tease.23:47
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PaulFertserGeneralAntilles: i know, i just felt obliged to say something nice to you ;)23:47
Anprwho is from UK here ? =]23:48
PaulFertserBecause it'd be strange if i blamed you for the lack of schematics and the datasheets.23:48