IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2009-11-16

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RST38hYou mean Modest?00:00
Anideland then yeah configure modest to use nokia messaging00:00
AnidelI've configured NM to sync few more folders.. but they are not appearing in Modest :/00:00
Corsacmight make sense to try Anjal on n90000:01
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Corsacmaybe he can keep up a bit more on the load00:01
Shapeshifteruhm, the n900 has IR right?00:02
Anidelrst38h :p00:02
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RST38hCorsac: Evolution alone will take all the space available at /00:03
Anidelshapeshifter indeed it has it00:03
CorsacRST38h: but eds is already there, isn't it?00:04
CorsacRST38h: and Anjal is not evolution (though it seems to require some libs from it :/ )00:04
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ShapeshifterHum. So, is there an app already available to use the n900 as a remote control for the PC and stuff over IR?00:04
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RST38hCorsac: SSite says it is UI on top of evolution00:05
Anidelshapeshifter well very few PCs have IR do they?00:05
CorsacRST38h: on top of evolution-data-server00:05
Corsacit /supposed/ to be targeting netbooks00:05
Corsacthough I wasn't really convinced, tbh00:05
ShapeshifterAnidel: mhh, I have. Well, and my HTPC has. but in any case, is there some IR software?00:06
Shapeshifterany software? I can't imagine what else to do with IR these days.00:06
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Anidelthere's IRRECO that's using it00:06
Firebirdhrm, is the N900 IR send only?00:07
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AnidelI only know it's not Irda compatible00:08
Firebirdif its send and recieve there's a possibility it could be used like a button similar to the proximity sensor00:09
javispedroRST38h: prepare to sigh
qwerty12_N900RST38h: Have you promoted the latest VGBA? I tried it, and was impressed with the update (thanks!). One request, however: Please allow the user to cancel the accelerometer calibration dialog in the next update00:10
ShapeshifterI wonder why they even included IR00:10
RST38hqwerty: No, have not promoted it yet. The dialog should be cancellable by clicking outside00:10
ShapeshifterWas it like "humm, there's some space left in that corner we can't fill with something else." "We still have a box of IR leds"00:11
RST38hqwerty: if it does not, simply lay the tablet onto a flat surface :)00:11
RST38hqwerty: also, cancelling the main settings dialog will discard all changes including accel calibration00:11
qwerty12_N900RST38h: Not cancelling when I click outside00:12
RST38hjavispedro: seen this already, let 'em...00:12
qwerty12_N900RST38h: Noted =)00:12
RST38hqwerty: Something is wrong with my code then =(00:12
RST38hjavispedro: I do not think any of these Oct2009ers fully understand the actual size of controls they are proposing =)00:13
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lcukOct09er actually doesnt sound like such a bad thing.00:14
javispedrothe HD2 thread is fantastic00:15
RST38hin theory, yes. in practice things do not always work out the same way though00:15
lcukRST38h, the best part is the fact they can deduce all this from a screenshot!00:15
lcuki might release a version of liqbase operating at exactly the right size and scale as it appears on n90000:16
RST38hWell, it is not like they have got real devices yet :((00:16
javispedroI think that's the key00:16
javispedrostop people who don't have devices yet from posting! :)00:16
* javispedro hides 00:17
* RST38h sighs now00:17
* zerojay applauds00:17
qwerty12_N900javispedro: OK, stop posting ;P00:17
* lcuk wedges a piece of card into something00:18
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javispedroqwerty12_N900: I didn't exactly mention "which" device you have to own ;)00:18
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RST38hAnother 5 "votes" for AlmostTI00:20
qwerty12_N900javispedro: True, true. I like your posts, anyway...00:20
* lcuk gives up and uses a ball of tissue instead00:20
lcukRST38h, woo!00:20
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lcukpeople are playing with it00:20
RST38hAll made in one minute00:20
lcukthe power of maemo.org00:21
qwerty12_N900lcuk: Not -testing votes...00:21
RST38hSo, no, I do not think people are playing with it00:21
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Anidelhow come ? my fantastic super easy wonderful app just got 5 in 6 days... grrr00:21
lcukdoes thumbs occur just as "fast" as -testing?00:21
Anidelah not -testing ones..00:21
lcukcos i can happily see people click click clicking00:21
AnidelI do get several in one shot sometimes..00:21
RST38hAnidel: Either it is a bug or somebody systematically votes down a bunch of apps00:22
RST38hI have got several dozen for AlmostTI alone00:22
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qwerty12_N900RST38h: Actually, that's probably another factor regarding Midgard's slowness... Someone is downvoting apps rapidly, and we get e-mails telling us of that...00:22
Anidelrst38h: no idea... and I don't know why people are downloading it NOW and not before.. Maemo Select effect?00:22
lcuklol @ self perpectuating thing.  you complain people vote it down, people go to your link to test whether its voting you down00:22
RST38hqwerty: You can't downvote rapidly, have to change your IP address00:23
RST38hAnidel: Doubt it00:23
RST38hBut may be00:23
qwerty12_N900RST38h: If it isn't a bug, this guy is managing well :)00:23
zerojayI'm getting a ton of those e-mail votes as well.00:23
lcukdo you have to be a unique uesr to vote down?00:23
RST38hlcuk: Naaah, it does not work this simply00:23
* javispedro notes that both samba 3.0.22 as avail on diablo extras and samba 3.0.23c as avail on nokia repos have glaring security holes00:23
lcukhow often can i vote your apps down?00:23
Anidelyeah but you don't deserve them :D I do :P00:23
RST38hqwerty: Yea, probably running a bot00:23
lcuki get loads of upvotes for liqbase :D00:24
RST38hlcuk: Is there any way to see the list of votes?00:24
lcukmail history00:24
RST38hbut it does not say whether they are up or down00:24
RST38hor who voted00:24
Anideldon't think threre's a way00:25
qwerty12_N900Why is anonymous voting allowed in the first place, anyway? Just like you have to be signed in to vote for apps in -testing00:27
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javispedroiirc supposedly anonymous voting was removed00:27
qwerty12_N900javispedro: Not according to the daily e-mails I've been getting...00:28
mikkov__bug #619200:28
povbotBug Bots are voting in Maemo Select?00:28
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javispedrothe idea of googlebot voting amuses me00:29
javispedrocan one emit a vote with just GET requests?00:30
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mikkov__in Maemo Select I think you can00:31
lcukjavispedro, i really hope not00:32
lcukor rather mikkov_00:33
javispedrooh, wow00:33
javispedroand lol again00:34
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qwerty12_N900Way to go, Nokia00:34
lcukand, the game begins00:34
lcuk16million get00:34
AnidelI don't need it... my super app is super cool already :p00:34
RST38hoh this is how they do it?00:35
javispedrosorry qwerty00:35
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lcukwhat app is 12200:36
lcukhold on, best be balanced00:36
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javispedroDroid foints00:36
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zerojayMidgard = complete fucking fail.00:36
lcuki want to change something about that url00:36
RST38hLet CNN be balanced00:37
RST38hI will be myself =)00:37
qwerty12_N900lcuk: voteapp.php?rate=1&id=$LIQBASEID00:37
Stskeepsholy crap @ url stuff00:37
RST38hoh yesssss00:37
javispedrovoteapp is for Ovi store apps, rating_gateway seems to be for Extras apps00:37
lcukit would make the oct09er people usefule00:37
zerojayMidgard really helps make Maemo look second-rate with all the problems, shitty floaty bar and this kind of crap.00:37
lcukqwerty12_N900, im not in maemo select00:37
qwerty12_N900lcuk: There, fixed it for you00:37
RST38hNOW I see what is going on00:37
RST38hHere they are, the votes00:37
javispedrothis is clearly googlebot doing it then00:37
* RST38h starts weeping histerically00:38
javispedro"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."00:38
lcukgooglebot wouldnt do it like that surely00:38
Anidelso.. when I get back control of when my app goes to Extras?00:38
RST38hHacked by the Googlebot...00:38
RST38hAnidel: You do not, apparently00:38
RST38hAnidel: In order to keep poor users safe from you00:38
Anidelrst38h I know.. I hate it as much as I hate the app store process00:39
* RST38h still can't push fMSX, Colem, Speccy, and MG into Extras00:39
RST38hNeed 10 votes, and nobody ever votes00:39
lcukserious business00:40
lcukhow do we cure it00:40
Anidel10 votes/ 10 days...00:40
RST38hBTW, this means that the latest updates will stay in -Devel forever00:40
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RST38hlcuk: This has been discussed already, even had a meeting on #maemo-meeting00:40
mikkov__testing activity has gone down lately00:40
lcuknot that00:40
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lcuki mean the silly googlebot00:40
AnidelI know my app works, I know I've applied 1 line change.. why can't I go straight to extras? need something to REMOVE from extras, rather than approve like it is now00:40
AnidelI mean... I want to go thru Testing00:41
Anidelkeep it there for a while and let people test it.. it's really useful00:41
Anidelbut if I KNOW there's nothing to test.. let me push it.00:41
* RST38h will try setting vote to 10 =)00:41
Anidelif someone abuses it, than .. let's work on there.. how to remove that app or so00:41
* javispedro watches RST38h hack m.o just to promote his apps :)00:42
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qwerty12_N900The solution is easy: Get rid of fucking anonymous voting00:42
SpeedEvilOr just vote all the apps back up00:42
lcukthe voting here is different00:42
doc|homelcuk: is the google bot problem one of the bot activating votes?00:42
RST38hrating=99 also works00:42
qwerty12_N900lcuk: They still affect the votes held on maemo.org00:43
lcukdoc|home, thats what rst thinks00:43
lcukqwerty12_N900,  but not testing00:43
Anidelyou guys are hijacking my topic :P00:43
* RST38h goes into "plunder, kill, hump the geese" mode00:43
doc|homelcuk: RST38h forms that alter values on the server should be sent via POST, not GET00:43
Anidel(same as I did :p)00:43
qwerty12_N900RST38h: Does 666 work?00:43
lcukvanity voting != Testing voting00:43
doc|homelcuk: link?00:43
RST38hqwerty: let us try00:43
RST38h666 worked00:44
doc|homelcuk: they need to change the submission of the form to post, not get00:44
javispedronote that right now I don't even know which app that link votes lol00:44
RST38hThey should freaking close this hole00:44
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* javispedro clicks the link a few times more just in case00:44
RST38hpost, get, whatever00:44
RST38hno, 666 does not seem to cause the email00:45
* javispedro waits for something to start testing rate=0 -- DROP TABLE students;00:45
mikkov__search this from google: OK00:46
javispedropoor conboy00:46
beford|n810little bobby tables00:46
javispedroI can see the bug report already -- "Google is voting Maemo applications. Ban them! Evil Android engineers!"00:47
* RST38h guesses all votes since around Nov 10 will have to be nullified00:47
GeneralAntillesRST38h, as I've said several times before. Maemo Select.00:47
* lbt wonders how much funding this is going to eat up00:48
lcukall votes originating from
RST38hNo shit, General...00:48
pupnikRST38h: download Dana Countryman - Cocktails In Space00:48
RST38hBut I kinda didn't expect the hole to be so wide that it gets "hacked" by Googlebot00:48
lcukits not hacked00:48
lcukits a cockup00:49
lcuka wtf00:49
lcukbut not a hack00:49
RST38hsee quotes00:49
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RST38hpupnik: found it at lastfm00:49
millenomionly tangentially maemo-related in that it's part of my Cocotron ARM port, but00:49
millenomianyone know how to do atomic compare-and-swap on ARM?00:50
millenomiand/or where to find MIT-licenceable code to that effect?00:50
RST38hafaik you can't00:50
RST38hbut let us see00:50
millenomiI know glib does it00:50
lcukwhos writing up the bug before we get sidetracked?00:50
mikkov__add comments to bug #619200:51
povbotBug Bots are voting in Maemo Select?00:51
pupnikthat is retro fun00:51
Anidelbtw here were the videos showing the difference in rotation between 41-10 and 42-11 (for Xournal at least):
pupniksome jerk00:51
pupniknice anidel!00:51
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qwerty12_N900Anidel: Oh, I also notice the same behaviour in yerga's StockThis00:52
RST38hmillenomi: does not look like arms have test-and-modify, so sorry00:52
Anidelit's weird how badly it does the rotation now...00:52
mikhaswhat happens if your bug title contains "bug #some_numer"? infinite recursion?00:52
fralspower management, way to intensive to do it like in 41-10! ;+00:52
millenomiRST38h: thanks00:52
Anidelqwerty12: phone app doesn't.. rotates as usual00:52
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Anidelwhat's weird is that I first hide landscape toolbar, ask for rotation then show portrait toolbar00:53
Anidelyou can see it from the video..00:53
AnidelPhone app seems to do the UI adaption while rotating.. don't see it re-adapting00:54
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Anidelah... no... it does re-adapt after rotation.. it's just that's usually fast enough00:55
GeneralAntillesAnidel, you file a bug?00:55
Anidelga: not even sure it's a bug... why in Phone doesn't do that?00:55
Anidelbut yes00:55
AnidelI'll file it...00:55
GeneralAntillesAnidel, at the very least you might be able to get an answer about that.00:55
RST38hok, sleep time00:56
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Anidelnight rst38h00:56
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johnxmorning everyone00:56
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lcukmornin johnx00:59
* lcuk hasnt done anything he meant for this evening00:59
fralsive eaten cake, thats all i set out to do today :D00:59
povbotBug Rotation in 42-11 is not as smooth in 41-10 for some third party apps01:00
povbotBug 6203: Rotation in 42-11 is not as smooth in 41-10 for some third party apps01:00
johnxlcuk, I put up a wiki on my oldest zaurus :D01:00
Anidelwops.. didn't know this :)01:00
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pupnikthe app switching animation is actually clunky under 30% cpu load.01:01
lcukAnidel, dont worry povbot is there to help01:01
lcuktoo many people wtf'ed when simple numbers were used01:01
Anidelwill it fix the issue :p01:01
pupniki want a site just for n900 parties01:02
lcukhave faith :)01:02
lcukwith the n900 theres a party in your pocket every day01:02
* lcuk cant believe he said that01:02
johnxAnidel, so nokia's apps rotate smoothly still?01:02
pupnikit is kind of true01:03
AnidelPhone app does01:03
Anidelthe only one :)01:03
pupniki tried to broadcast some tunes at a party but fm signal was not strong enough01:03
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johnxwhat about the photo viewer?01:03
lcukin windows, there used to be an issue with MDI windows and screen refreshes, and if you kept the window size smaller than the screen you saw an ugly flash before hand01:04
Anidelphoto viewer does not rotate..01:04
Anidelthe picture does01:04
lcukthe fix was in the app and not in the system01:04
pupnikneed to find a nice clear channel for 5 minutes first, then lay n900 next to reciever01:04
lcukpupnik, i find that bizarra01:04
lcukfm tx is cool, i can actually overpower tracy in the car outside01:05
lcukfrom up here01:05
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* lcuk plots to make use of that01:05
SpeedEvilpupnik: did you have headphones in?01:05
dmj7261lcuk: you do much with clutter for liqbase?01:06
pupnikthese things have crappy makeshift antennas and the geröan spectrum is very noisy also.01:06
pupnikno SpeedEvil01:06
pupnikare heaphones used for tx?01:06
lcuknot as yet dmj726101:06
lcukliqbase is designed for n8x0 up01:06
pupnikthe cable...01:06
SpeedEvilpupnik: maybe - unsure01:06
SpeedEvillcuk: any difference with or without heafphones?01:06
lcukdmj7261, tho im not adverse to looking at a new backend01:07
lcuki need to anyway, ive got some technical things which i might try soon01:07
lcukSpeedEvil, no, its tx01:07
lcuknever took headphones01:07
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dmj7261I've just been getting funny GLX errors with it.01:07
johnxif you plugin headphones while trying to do fm tx it will shut down the tx and route sound out of the headphone jack01:07
* Anidel goes to sleep... see you guys01:07
lcukdmj7261, just talk01:08
lcuktheres people who may know here01:08
johnxsomething about controlling transmit power I think01:08
lcukif they have an idea or a ponder they will jump in :P01:08
johnx(FCC regulations or somesuch)01:08
dmj7261I asked last night.01:08
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lcukthen you asked the wrong question or didnt offer enough cake01:08
lcukor ppl were asleep01:09
johnx(or no one who knew was here)01:09
dmj7261hmmm should've offered cake01:09
pupnikit is still nice to have the weak fm tx - for when no cable is handy.  but the 10 cm range makes using device while djing impossible01:09
lcukreally? what sort of cake?01:09
javispedrogetting GLX errors sounds weird01:09
javispedrocause there's no GlX on the device.01:09
dmj7261python[31743]: GLIB WARNING ** ClutterX11 - clutter_x11_disable_event_retrieval should be called before clutter_init01:09
dmj7261then I get python[31769]: GLIB CRITICAL ** CLutterGLX - Unable to make the stage window 0x1e00017 the current GLX drawable01:09
SpeedEvilpupnik: was it a device with an roof-mounted antenna?01:09
SpeedEvilpupnik: that you were going to?01:09
lcukare you on hardware01:10
pupnikall fm recievers01:10
lcukor  in sdk01:10
dmj7261 here's the offending code01:10
SpeedEvilpupnik: Even on a quiet channel?01:10
lcukwheres my cake?01:10
dmj7261it's in scratchbox while I await the device01:10
pupnikmy record for a signaal witholut noise is 30 cm01:10
pupnikafwhat is yours?01:11
pupnikawhat is yours?01:11
johnxdunno honestly. maybe 2m with some moderate static (nothing worse than your average fm station)01:11
lcukupstairs bedroom to car01:11
johnxbut that 2m is passenger seat to the actual car antenna01:12
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johnxmaybe the deck itself is picking it up with an internal antenna? or part of the antenna wiring on the way to the deck is picking it up?01:12
pupnikit is still useful01:12
johnx<- doesn't know his radio stuff very well01:13
pupnikbut you can not use N90p normally on couch and broadcast fm to your stereo01:13
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dmj7261any idea on what might be going wrong?01:13
johnxfor my *own* stereo I'd use A2DP :)01:13
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pupniklets find the people who made a fm transmitter illegal, and shut them up01:13
johnxor maybe the DLNA rendering, or mpd01:13
lcukdmj7261, are you meant to add the clutter stage widget to x11 first perhaps01:14
lcukhave you checked the actual docs on this01:14
dmj7261there's not much good actual documentation for clutter in pygtk01:14
* lcuk nods01:15
dmj7261it seems like I'm getting the stage directly from clutter-gtk though01:15
lcukthe function you commented out cos you couldnt find the ref for it01:16
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lcukyou had removed the clutter_01:16
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javispedroeither way, since this is a pure clutter issue you may ahve better luck in any clutter support channel01:16
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lcukthe error report tells him what to do01:16
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lcukcall disable_event before the _init01:17
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lcukdmj7261, the python lib should pretty much mirror the c lib, if you are looking for refs and you cannot find it in python docs, try the c stuff :)01:18
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dmj7261I just imported clutter and gluttergtk in the wrong order01:27
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lcukhas anyone seen my pen?01:30
johnxI might have seen it once01:31
johnxdo you think you might have left it in Amsterdam or Copenhagen?01:31
javispedroqwerty12_N900: if you already know the sharing dialog protos, wouldn't it make sense to make a community -dev package if nokia refuses?01:31
lcuklol, i left it on my desk here01:31
qwerty12_N900javispedro: I only know the one function signature, and even that was obtained via guesswork01:33
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javispedrobut that's THE function I guess :)01:33
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qwerty12_N900I guess so :p01:34
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dmj7261self.emotion_vars.python = "frustrated"01:44
dmj7261self.emotion_vars.python = "Okay it's actually pretty awesome now that it's working."01:44
johnxso importing cluttergtk second overrides some emotion variables? :D01:44
archebytecan't seem to setup esbox on Ubuntu 9.10.. get a blank dialog after running eclipse and selecting 'OK' from the Choose Workspace dialog..  any ideas?01:45
dmj7261yes, by way of not failing and causing me instant happiness.01:45
luke-jrdmj7261: btw, that is totally not sensible Python code01:46
dmj7261I know01:46
dmj7261you have to admit though, that pseudocode is pretty darn close to Python ;)01:47
ShapeshifterMhhh, is there a set of tools for ash/bash, basically command line tools, to control things in the phone, like toggling 3G or setting the screen brightness and such?01:49
johnxShapeshifter, probably easiest to do that with dbus-send01:50
Shapeshifterjohnx: I see.01:50
johnxhowever, you bring up a good point that it would be neat to have some really thin shell wrappers around those functions that acted like more "classic" linux command line tools01:50
Shapeshifterjohnx: I'll definetly get into that as soon as I have one01:50
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johnxdo you have an n800/n810?01:51
Shapeshifterjohnx: because it would then be a stroll to write small scripts to do things according to other states.01:51
Shapeshifterjohnx: nope.01:51
johnxah, then nevermind01:51
johnxI was just going to say you could get started right away :>01:52
Shapeshifterjohnx: well ;)01:52
ShapeshifterI don't think scratchbox can help, right? Well, I'll read some docs if I find the time01:52
johnxyou can surely do some stuff with dbus-send at least to get an idea of the syntax01:53
johnxlike launching apps, or being notified when something happens01:53
johnxon the listening side, you probably want to look at dbus-monitor01:53
ShapeshifterI already know some dbus-send01:53
Shapeshifterdid some scripting with it earlier.01:53
johnxvery neat01:53
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* GAN900 wishes for just one dinky little patch to fix FBReader. 01:59
johnxthe volume button thing?01:59
johnxyeah. me too01:59
johnxbeen using my n800 for ebooks because of that01:59
GAN900I bound the spacebar02:00
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johnxugh. can't cope with reading landscape02:00
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GAN900which works well enough for paging if you keep the keyboard open slightly.02:00
GAN900No, portrait.02:00
johnxactually, the patch I want is syncable bookmarks02:00
GAN900I'd love to have my reading position synced across multiple devices.02:01
johnxthat's what I mean02:01
johnxthough bookmarks that aren't necessarily the latest place you are in the book would be kinda nice too02:02
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GAN900Meh, I read fiction in FBReader.02:02
GAN900Hi, hrw.02:02
johnxhey hrw02:03
hrwis maemo5 upgradable by "apt-get update;apt-get upgrade" or only total reflash is an option?02:03
johnxhrw, the former: no, the latter: no02:03
w00t_it has a seperate upgrader tool afaik02:03
johnxI guess their graphical apt frontend does something a little different than apt02:03
hrww00t_: NSU is one thing, upgradability is other02:03
w00t_i wasn't talking about NSU, obviously02:04
johnxbut most 3rd party apps can be upgraded safely by apt-get upgrade02:04
hrww00t_: symbian phones use NSU to upgrade FW but some keeps user data (PIM for example) when some do not02:04
qwerty12_N900NSU is total shit, anyway. flasher-3.5 kicks its ass02:04
hrwjohnx: that part I know from os2005/6/7/802:04
johnxhrw, and it's the same for maemo5/n90002:04
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hrwjohnx: sure, but I asked about nokia part of FW not 3rdparty packages02:05
GAN900hrw, SSU02:05
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GAN900or 'Maemo Update' now, I guess.02:05
w00t_SSU it is, I just found it02:05
johnxhrw, and I answered you. nokia stuff: you need to use their graphical tool, not apt-get upgrade -or- you can reflash with flasher3.5 or NSU02:06
GAN900Some confusion over 'graphical tool', I think.02:06
hrwGAN900: thx, so like it is with os2008 then02:06
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Shapeshifterhuh the ti emulator is brilliant02:08
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Shapeshifterin the vid archebyte did, I find it interesting that pulse is using so much CPU. I would actually not mind just having ALSA and no pulse, not having sound in more then one app at a time.02:10
Shapeshifterwhy is pulse using like 16% cpu, just because it's playing back music. Wasn't playing anything else at the time.02:10
GeneralAntilleshrw, mostly, though I think the updates may be coming more regularly.02:11
Shapeshifter this is the video I meant.02:11
ShapeshifterI also don't hear any sound from the youtube video he's playing back.02:11
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hrwanyway still have to wait until nokia will ship device02:13
johnxheh, though even before that we can already confirm that more than one person with a pre-release n900 has made it unbootable (not bricked of course) through an apt-get upgrade ;)02:14
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GeneralAntillesThink that has more to do with Extras-devel, however.02:15
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johnxGeneralAntilles, is that where the kernel update showed up briefly?02:15
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GeneralAntillesThere were some system libs in there, too.02:16
GeneralAntillesI'll run some testing once I have a public FIASCO image.02:16
johnxis there any way to capture the image NSU downloads?02:16
GeneralAntillesProbably, but I think they locked it down after the Symbian stuff kept getting cracked.02:17
johnxI'd know how to do it in linux (by sitting on whatever filehandle it uses to store the file), but I don't know on windows ...02:17
hrwjohnx: use wireshark and try to recreate fetching session02:18
qwerty12_N900johnx: Navifirm02:18
crashanddieI'd like him to come back from that one02:18
GeneralAntillesReligion on Talk?02:18
w00t_..just when you thought it couldn't get worse02:19
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GeneralAntillesIt's almost as bad as when that troll asserted that Texrat and I would very happily fight a religious war in Iraq for Nokia.02:20
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w00t_GeneralAntilles: you *wouldn't*?02:20
* w00t_ is shocked.02:20
crashanddieI'm a gentle troll, my arguments have good basis02:20
pupnikcrashanddie is far from stupid02:20
johnxcan this seal the deal in terms of personal 'ignore thread' button? along with pulling off-topic out of the righ-hand active threads column ... *and* putting threads that have gone off-topic into off-topic?02:21
* GeneralAntilles wasn't asserting crashanddie is an idiot.02:21
GeneralAntillesWell, maybe, but that's not my point. :P02:21
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pupniki think we need maemo dieties02:21
pupniklike 2502:21
crashanddieas in small diets?02:22
pupnikand GAN has to be one02:22
crashanddieor deities?02:22
johnxcrashanddie, not a big fan of counter-trolling (mostly because I don't have the energy for it), but that is some class-A stuff :)02:22
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GeneralAntillesI want my power to be making a loud squealing noise come out of the computer of anyone who irritates me.02:22
crashanddiejohnx, thanks, I'm pretty big on bashing brainless religious people02:22
pupnikdemagogue would be penguinbait02:23
crashanddiejohnx, that being said, as I asserted in the post, I have been brought up as a Christian02:23
pupniki just want to see a real old phart star by ppls names on t.m.o02:23
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, so you're the one behind breaking the fan on my laptop?02:23
johnxcrashanddie, yup. christian or catholic schooling I expect?02:24
crashanddiejohnx, nope, public02:24
GeneralAntillesI love the second bit you quoted, crashanddie.02:24
johnxcrashanddie, interesting. that's a lot of bible study in your free time then02:24
GeneralAntillesI can handle religious types, but you got to love the ones who take it to One True Religion town.02:24
GeneralAntillesI only wish Nostradamus had a dogma.02:25
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, Nostro's dogma was "Just say shit the whole time, you're bound to hit the jackpot once, and then people will go: Oh shite, maybe the old fool was right after all"02:26
crashanddieand stay vague, too02:26
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, just like the Bible?02:26
johnxaka, the consultant's dogma :D02:26
crashanddieI'm a consultant you wanker02:26
* johnx ducks :>02:26
* GeneralAntilles gooses.02:26
johnxI'm a wanker you consultant. Don't drag me down to your level :D02:27
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crashanddiethough, I have to say, Nostradamus was pretty much spot on for 91102:27
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johnxthe bible was more like that campfire activity where you say a couple lines of the story, then pass it on to the next guy02:28
crashanddieactually, just reading it, the version I read before was FUD and re-written02:28
johnxbut in between each "pass" you had to wright it down, let it sit for a couple hundred years, then have it translated a couple times, *then* the next guy could write his part02:29
crashanddiethat's a new mix mate02:29
johnxrong? :)02:29
SpeedEviljohnx: Also - some translations of source material are more official because they were done hundreds of years ago02:30
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SpeedEvil'suffer the little children'02:30
SpeedEvilDoes _not_ mean today what it once meant02:30
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johnxSpeedEvil, yeah, I can't stand my little cousins either. wait, what?02:31
SpeedEvilKing james translation 'Mark 10:14 Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God.1'02:31
SpeedEvilIn this sense it means 'allow'02:31
SpeedEvilOr permit02:31
crashanddiepretty much spot on now still02:32
qwerty12_N900johnx: Then, it meant to throw a rock on them; now, it means to use a flamethrower on them02:32
crashanddie"You nasty little prat, if you don't behave I'll have you suffer church on sunday!"02:32
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johnxqwerty12_N900, ah. thank you professor02:32
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johnxsuffer the little children. suffer them right in the face!02:32
crashanddiejohnx, sounds strangely inviting and compeling02:33
crashanddieand there we go, going the perv route again02:33
johnxit was more along the lines of a punch in the face. anything pervy was on your side of the screen02:34
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crashanddiewow, I have a ratio of 1.46 on TMO02:35
Shapeshifter this one's also brilliant02:35
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crashanddieShapeshifter, you kinda killed the conversation with your turd eating videos02:44
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KlownerI got to touch a N900 today, can't wait to get mine02:58
* Klowner makes squealy noises02:58
MaceN8x0how was it?02:59
Klownerat the nokia store in chicago, the lady at the front of the store said they had none, but I asked again and they had one hidden in a drawer and I got to fiddle with it02:59
Klownerand like, 3 people came in during that time and asked if they had any N900s03:00
johnxthat's crazy03:00
Klownerit was pretty fast, I was impressed by the screen03:01
MaceN8x0Klowner, im in chicago!03:01
Klownerit's quite small, but the resolution is crazy03:01
johnxi'm mostly impressed that 3 other people were looking for one at the same time03:01
MaceN8x0so which store was it?03:01
KlownerMaceN8x0: the one on michigan ave.03:01
johnxI think Nokia might have vastly underestimated how popular this thing would be03:01
KlownerMaceN8x0: they have none for sale, but they might let you see the one if you're real nice03:02
MaceN8x0too downtown for me03:02
GeneralAntillesjohnx, they ALWAYS underestimate EVERYTHING about Maemo.03:03
johnxeh. I bet they were close on the actual numbers for the maemo4 devices. I bet they guessed the dev/user ratio wrong though (underestimating the appeal to users)03:05
GeneralAntillesFrom everything I've heard about that timeframe, I'd disagree.03:06
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GeneralAntillesI think Nokia has consistently underestimated Maemo03:06
GeneralAntillesjohnx, look at the bandwidth fiasco during November 2007.03:06
Klownerthey said they should have them for sale within a couple weeks03:07
johnxno one ever gets bandwidth projections right03:07
Klownerhopefully amazon ships mine before then03:07
GeneralAntillesThen there's statements from Nokia people about sales numbers.03:07
johnxI have a feeling that the underestimation WRT the N900 is going to be of a whole different order of magnitude03:10
GeneralAntillesSure, but I don't believe their estimation has been accurate at any point.03:11
GeneralAntillesWhich is where I disagree with you.03:11
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johnxnah, we probably agree for the most part, just in different words :)03:13
johnxI should have said, "I bet they were *closer* with their n8x0 projections than their n900 projections"03:14
GeneralAntillesI hope the dinosaurs at Nokia die off or retire RSN.03:15
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johnxI really hope to see maemo on some more reasonably priced phones/devices03:16
johnxthat's the biggest thing in my mind03:16
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johnxGeneralAntilles, $250 maybe?03:17
johnx$250 is getting closer to the "poor linux hacker" price range03:18
GeneralAntillesHrm, maybe in a year or two.03:18
GeneralAntillesWhen did the N900 hit $200? Summer 2008 or so?03:18
johnxn800? yeah, summer 2008 I thought03:18
johnxeasy enough to check from forum posts03:19
GeneralAntillesRemoving the accessories from the N900 isn't going to drop the price particularly drastically03:19
johnxah, you mean the IR/FM/WiFi?03:21
GeneralAntillesCan't drop WiFi03:21
GeneralAntillesCellular-only Maemo would be expensive.03:21
johnxyou can do a lot of things when you're not aiming at hackers anymore03:21
GeneralAntillesWiFi isn't THAT expensive, anyway.03:22
johnxwhich, BTW, is a *good* thing (a multi-device strategy I mean)03:22
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johnxnothing is really expensive on its own03:23
johnxexcept maybe the screen...03:23
johnxanyways, all just off-the-wall thoughts. It sounds like they want to keep it high-end for some time to come03:23
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SD69javispedro: ping03:49
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* b-man17 yawns03:58
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Thephilosophereverybody is sleeping ?05:03
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GeneralAntillescrashanddie, ping?06:12
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dmj7261hi zaheerm07:59
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shuduoanyone know where I can download maemo 5 SDK tar ball? i need it for my fedora since no dpkg to install from installer script08:27
shuduogummi: yes, i can see installer script download only after i click "Download the Maemo 5 SDK"08:32
shuduogummi: but i can't find tar ball..08:32
GummiI'm not sure if they provide anything more than this installer script..08:33
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RST38hMhm...christexaport went all religious on tmo08:37
RST38hThe End must be near indeed08:37
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shuduogummi: just found the script provides command line parameter to install sdk by downloading tar ball.. :D thanks08:53
Gummiheh... no prob08:53
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recalcatigood morning, I'm trying to solve an usb mouse problem08:59
recalcatiit is qt related, but in qt embedded mailing list nobody answers to my question08:59
tekojorecalcati what exactly?09:00
recalcatiI mean: qt can manage input event mouse event or not ?09:00
tekojorecalcati, what are you trying to do? Qt does a lot of things09:01
recalcatiI'm getting crazy, because with cat /dev/input/event2 | hexdump I see events.    I did ln -s /dev/input/event2  /dev/mouse09:01
recalcatithen I start strace -e open,read ./deform -qws09:02
tekojoNow how is that related to Qt?09:02
recalcatiso I see it open that device, but, when I move the mouse, I have continuous error09:02
recalcatisomebody told to use tslib with module raw input, but I'm not able to understand if qt is using tslib really, how to increase the verbosity of qt?09:03
mikhasyou are doing something completely wrong I think09:04
mikhasqt widgets provide all the necessary mouse event handlers you need09:04
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recalcatiit is sure, but, I use normally qt with LinuxTp hanldler, and is good, instead from usb mouse I'm not able to make it working09:05
recalcatimikhas: it is not qt-x11 , it is qt on fb09:05
mikhaswell then I have no idea =)09:06
recalcatibut I wrote the input event hanlder for qt on fb for touchscreen events (input event), maybe qt on fb and usb mouse is not a common solution09:07
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lamojolaHow likely is Maemo5 looking for N800?09:31
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dmj7261not at all09:32
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lamojolaSo it's Mer?09:32
dmj7261Maemo 5 has a lot of features that simply can't work on the n80009:32
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dmj7261Mer will work on n80009:32
lamojolaDoes Mer have an SDK?09:32
dmj7261The plan is for Maemo 5 features that will work on n8x0 to be backported09:33
Termanalamojola, don't diss mer by talking down on it. it's bringing maemo 5 to older devices and eventually maemo 6 as well09:33
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dmj7261I don't know.  I don't even have an nxx0.09:33
zchydem_workrecalcati: I guess you can use tslib for getting touchscreen events for Qt/fb?09:33
thomastimjuego de boxeo online
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lamojolaI'm not dissing Maemo5. It's Nokia that I'm laughing at.  Seems they've had a funny way about doing business, using the community, etc.09:34
lamojolaor Mer09:34
lamojolaNot dissing Mer09:34
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lamojolaSerious question here.  Is the CPU from N800 so much different from the proposed N900 that the kernel won't run?09:35
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luke-jrlamojola: proposed N900?09:38
lamojolaOK N900 sorry09:38
luke-jryou mean N800 kernel on N900 or N900 kernel on N800?09:38
lamojolaluke-jr, As an x86 machine, I can reasonably compile the same kernel from a more advanced CPU as long as it stay 32bit, etc.09:39
recalcatizchydem_work: I'm trying , but I'm not able to verify if I'm using really tslib, how to investigate?09:39
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luke-jrlamojola: not really.09:40
luke-jrlamojola: if you compile your kernel for Pentium, it won't boot on a standard i58609:40
recalcatiI have changed /etc/ts.conf as explained in
luke-jrN800 is ARMv6 architecture (think i586); N900 is ARMv7 (think i686)09:40
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dmj7261Does anyone know of a way to make scratchbox use opengl es 2.0?09:40
luke-jrso the N800 kernel will be happy with the N900 CPU, but not vice-versa09:40
recalcatiN900 is ARMv7 , not i68609:41
luke-jrthe bigger problem you will hit is hardware components09:41
recalcatibut is powerful, more more than N80009:41
luke-jrthe N900 kernel will not include support for N8x0 hardware, nor vice-versa09:41
recalcatizchydem_work:  I have changed /etc/ts.conf as explained in
luke-jrall that said, I'm not aware of any reason to run N8x0 kernel on N900 nor the N900 kernel on N8x009:41
luke-jrit's not like they're significantly different in terms of what they provide userland09:42
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lamojolaluke-jr, I see, yet given that, Nokia should be able to provide a new Maemo OS for each older product with a recompile for the specific target architecture. I realize they won't, but I'm asking just the same--seeing if it's physically possible.09:43
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GeneralAntilleslamojola, N800 support is not included in current kernel builds. :)09:45
lamojolaSide question here, what proprietary binaries are left still, and do they have plans to rid those and replace them with opensource?09:45
GeneralAntillesHardware support would need to be ported.09:45
luke-jrlamojola: the userland differs too much09:45
GeneralAntilleslamojola, do you believe Nokia would choose not to provide Maemo 5 for OMAP2 devices if it were easy? :)09:45
GeneralAntilleslamojola, it's a non-trivial endeavor, unfortunately.09:45
luke-jrlamojola: afaik, N900 relies on more proprietary blobs than N810 does.09:45
GeneralAntillesLargely due to the hardware differences between the two platforms.09:46
GeneralAntillesluke-jr, not true.09:46
luke-jrlamojola: supposedly Nokia is getting 3D acceleration drivers for N8x0 for Mer to use09:46
GeneralAntilleslamojola, what you want to look at is Mer.09:46
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: no? I count 2 blobs requires for N81009:46
infobotmethinks mer is, or on #mer09:46
infobotit has been said that mer is, or on #mer09:46
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: N900 has what? battery charger and phone stack at least.09:47
luke-jrI know there were more09:47
GeneralAntillesCellular stack isn't a blob.09:47
lamojolaGeneralAntilles, I foresee Nokia taking off with each new hardware platform, potentially being a predator to a loyal programming community having to buy a new Nokia gadget each time.09:47
GeneralAntillesThe modem is a blackbox.09:47
GeneralAntilleslamojola, then you're clueless. :)09:48
lamojolaGeneralAntilles, enlighten me.09:48
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: everything phone-related on the main CPU is open?09:48
GeneralAntillesNokia's putting a lot of effort into helping Mer.09:48
GeneralAntillesWhich is going to be the upgrade path for existing device owners.09:48
luke-jrlamojola: that's about right, to some degree.09:48
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: Nokia began refusing to fix N810 bugs about a year ago at least09:49
GeneralAntillesThe simple reality is that supporting current owners with an official upgrade isn't economically feasible.09:49
GeneralAntillesMaemo is still a young platform without a lot of manpower behind it.09:49
luke-jrthe simple reality is that Nokia's blobs prevent us current owners from fixing their bugs09:49
recalcatiGeneralAntilles: I remember some eula I had to accept when installing sdk on my pc, but I don't know what are about09:49
GeneralAntillesSo supporting a lot of legacy hardware simply isn't a realistic option.09:49
GeneralAntillesluke-jr, "Nokia's" blobs? :)09:50
GeneralAntillesluke-jr, Nokia doesn't own the blobs.09:50
lamojolaGeneralAntilles, I'd say the Maemo community built this end of Nokia, so I don't see how you give them credit.  Yes, of course they'll seed some resourcing, like seeding capital.  Again, I'm curious, just trying to have a discussion with you folks, but I'm skeptical about this future trend of product "leap frogging".09:50
GeneralAntillesluke-jr, you want them opened, you talk to TI.09:50
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: I have no pull with TI, I bought the hardware from Nokia.09:50
GeneralAntilleslamojola, how long have you been a member of this community?09:50
GeneralAntillesI've been here since very nearly the beginning, and I can tell you that the level of commitment Nokia has shown for this community is quite simply unprecedented in the history of mobile devices.09:51
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luke-jrGeneralAntilles: you know, I have to agree with that.09:52
luke-jrI haven't seen any other vendor do as much as Nokia has.09:52
dmj7261How so?  Can you give a newcomer examples of this commitment?09:52
luke-jrbut it's still insufficient09:52
luke-jrdmj7261: latest example is the 3D accel for N8x009:53
GeneralAntillesYes, there are a lot of things they've done wrong and, no, they're not perfect. I'm usually right out in front of the shouting crowd when they make a misstep, but you have to give credit where credit is due.09:53
dmj7261es 2.0 accel?09:53
lamojolaGeneralAntilles, I don't remember when I registered with Maemo, but I figure I've owned a 770 since the beginning, so how long is that?  Besides, I wouldn't credit duration with any analysis, clever or not.  I'm just taking a look, and as luke-jr said, we have no pull with TI.  Nokia has a choice indeed when going to the draft.  They can choose to put opensource as much as my PC runs 100% opensource.09:53
luke-jrdmj7261: don't know if it's 2.0. whatever the chip supports09:53
dmj72612.0 would be awesome: I'm making a forum topic right now about 3D engine candidates.09:53
luke-jrI never understood the point of the 770. The Zaurus had better hardware years earlier.09:54
GeneralAntillesdmj7261, codewise? Getting the STLC45xx specs for the open WiFi driver on N8x0, getting 3D drivers for N8x0, open sourcing many of their own components, and relicensing others for redistribution.09:54
lamojolaGeneralAntilles, however mobile devices are quite new.  Nokia was one of the first with such thrust, but history doesn't exist much in this arena.  It's too new and with too few competitors.09:54
GeneralAntilleslamojola, the mobile device market doesn't even begin to compare with the PC market. :)09:54
dmj7261You don't have as much opportunity for DIY frankenmobiles09:55
* dmj7261 is using a fairly beefy frankenputer.09:55
GeneralAntillesdmj7261, community wise, two paid-for Maemo Summits, with 100s of people sponsored to attend, several other smaller meetups with more sponsorships09:55
GeneralAntillesLoaner devices for community people09:55
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GeneralAntillesDiscount programs for every device release.09:56
GeneralAntillesFinancing and its 6 paid staff members09:56
GeneralAntillesEmploying additional community-focused positions @ Nokia.09:56
GeneralAntillesdmj7261, oh, and you know TI's recent big moves towards open source?09:57
GeneralAntillesWith OMAP3 especially?09:57
lamojolaGeneralAntilles, I'm not sure what you meant with your last statement to me.  Compare what?09:57
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GeneralAntilleslamojola, you can't bring up the PC market as an argument for why you think mobile devices should be just as open.09:57
GeneralAntilleslamojola, the markets simply don't compare.09:57
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: meetups and loaners do nothing for those of us left out, so.. bad examples :p09:57
dmj7261TI's moves to open source?09:57
GeneralAntilleslamojola, the mobile market is lightyears ahead of where it was just 5 years ago.09:58
luke-jrdiscount programs based on flawed criteria leaves a bad taste, too09:58
GeneralAntilles(In a large part thanks to Nokia's efforts, in fact)09:58
GeneralAntillesdmj7261, OMAP35x, Beagle Board, etc.09:58
GeneralAntillesluke-jr, :shrug:09:58
dmj72615 years ago not one mobile could pass my "Is it like my desktop" criteria09:58
GeneralAntillesluke-jr, you had months of time to code up a karma plug-in for IRC.09:58
GeneralAntillesdmj7261, TI's worlds more open source friendly now than they were when Nokia used the OMAP1 in the 770.09:59
dmj7261That's good.09:59
GeneralAntillesThis is in a BIG way thanks to Nokia's efforts.09:59
mikhasanyone wants some popcorn? I am enjoying this read.09:59
GeneralAntillesluke-jr, don't bring your spitefulness in here, it's not productive.09:59
GeneralAntillesluke-jr, you could've applied to attend the Summit.10:00
lamojolaGeneralAntilles, Again, new, but then again IBM's BIOS was new too till some hacks cracked it, and we have clones, more open.  Everything evolves.  As long as hardware manufactures continue to be in bed with closed-source hardware components our drive becomes that much more cumbersome and delayed at progress.10:00
GeneralAntilleslamojola, Nokia's pushing hard to get vendors to be more open.10:00
GeneralAntilleslamojola, but it's not a process that happens over night.10:00
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: hey, I probably wouldn't be getting one with or without a discount. just pointing out flaws in those arguments :P10:00
mikhaslamojola, I dont think I ever had a truly open PC, whatever that is.10:00
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: and even if everything was paid, I could not have gone to any Summit10:01
GeneralAntilleslamojola, nor is it a process served well by hardline zealotism.10:01
GeneralAntillesluke-jr, what flaws?10:01
GeneralAntillesluke-jr, you think giving out 300 devices at the Summit is not a valid argument to show Nokia supports the community?10:01
luke-jr1. meetups only benefit a small portion of the community10:01
XisdibikGeneralAntilles: they needed to give 301.  300 at summit 1 in the mail to me ;)10:01
GeneralAntilleslamojola, the fact is that Nokia's been working incredibly hard to push your goals with vendors10:01
luke-jr2. criteria-based discounts have an inverse effect when the criteria is bad10:02
GeneralAntilleslamojola, so decrying them for their efforts is pretty low.10:02
dmj7261The N900 doesn't pass the 100% FOSS test.  That said, the more they make FOSS, the more I'll be impressed.10:02
lamojolamikhas, Really?  Most PC (not laptops) don't have a problem.10:02
GeneralAntillesluke-jr, so you think contributors to the Maemo community don't deserve discounts?10:02
GeneralAntillesluke-jr, 400 people is a pretty big chunk of the contributing portion of this community.10:02
mikhaslamojola, so you have an open BIOS, an open wifi card, open GPU? I am impressed, really.10:02
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: I think discount programs need to be done in a way that doesn't leave people out with a bad taste10:03
dmj7261Does it count as free if you don't know how free the BIOS is?10:03
GeneralAntillesluke-jr, and the productive efforts that have come out of the Summits are always impressive.10:03
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GeneralAntillesluke-jr, but you need to separate your spite out here, because it's currently making this discussion highly unproductive.10:03
GeneralAntillesluke-jr, everybody thinks they deserve things.10:03
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: again, this doesn't apply to me personally.10:03
GeneralAntillesluke-jr, you can never make everybody happy.10:03
GeneralAntillesluke-jr, it does.10:03
luke-jrI wouldn't buy one even if I had a discount.10:03
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: Freescale's developer programs seem much more reasonable IMO10:04
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dmj7261I would be much happier and coding happily for Maemo if Nokia gave me a developer discount and a prerelease unit.  I haven't made any finished apps though, so I understand that they wouldn't.10:04
GeneralAntillesAnyway, whatever.10:05
luke-jrnobody can really complain with their methods10:05
GeneralAntillesI've said my piece, take it or leave it.10:05
mikhasthe grass is much greener on the other side, eh?10:05
GeneralAntillesdmj7261, proven contributors always take precedence. :)10:05
luke-jrdmj7261: *and*? you want 2 N900s at discount? :P10:05
dmj7261Shall we compare Nokia's efforts to Apple's?10:05
GeneralAntillesdmj7261, just look at the stick rate for GSoC students to see why giving out free hardware like that doesn't work.10:05
mikhasyes, please10:05
Termanaapple ftw fool10:05
lamojolaGeneralAntilles, I'm not decrying. I'm observing.  Hardware manufactures make choices.  The Asus Eee isn't that much bigger than the 770/8x0, given the removal of the keyboard, ports, LCD, SSD, etc.  Think about it.10:06
Termanalol j/k10:06
mikhasstart, I get more popcorn10:06
luke-jrdmj7261: I think OpenMoko set the standard pretty high on openness? :p10:06
GeneralAntilleslamojola, think about what?10:06
GeneralAntilleslamojola, it's a vastly different hardware platform.10:06
dmj7261I'm a GSoC student.10:06
Termanaget me some mikhas10:06
GeneralAntilleslamojola, fact is, the N900 is the MOST OPEN mainstream cellular device to date.10:06
GeneralAntilleslamojola, think about it.10:06
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: OpenMoko10:06
lamojoladmj7261, you mean
luke-jrmainstream is irrelevant10:06
GeneralAntillesi.e., hardware and software that aren't useless.10:07
GeneralAntillesluke-jr, good troll.10:07
Termanaisn't the droid argueably more open?10:07
luke-jrmainstream just means idiots on the street buy them10:07
luke-jrTermana: is it?10:07
mikhasand it means profit10:07
dmj7261Open source =/= open platform10:07
dmj7261and android has closed apps too.10:07
luke-jrmikhas: if you involve profit, then I want Vendor to pay me per hour for time I spend improving their device's usability :p10:08
Termanaluke-jr, i could be wrong but i was under the impression android is totally open source10:08
dmj7261and likely closed drivers for each phone10:08
luke-jrTermana: yeah, way wrong10:08
mikhassure, move to helsinki =p10:08
dmj7261not sure about the driver thing10:08
luke-jrTermana: but I don't know which of Android and Maemo is more open10:08
XisdibikGeneralAntilles: goodnight :/10:08
dmj7261The totally open android versions would be equivalent to Mer.10:08
luke-jrMaemo is certainly more standards compliant (Qt, X11 compliant)10:08
luke-jrdmj7261: Mer isn't 100% open10:09
dmj7261Maemo wins hands down on open platform10:09
dmj7261what parts are closed?10:09
luke-jrMaemo isn't very open, relatively.10:09
Termanaandroid sucks anyway, but i just thought it was more open. it certainly seems to be more mainstream than maemo10:09
luke-jrdmj7261: Mer requires closed blobs for anything Maemo has closed in areas of hardware support10:09
dmj7261so Mer just has closed drivers?10:09
luke-jrI think.10:09
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Stskeepsluke-jr: :slap: 100 percent open core, may have closed blobs (fw, battery daemons, etc) on some hw.10:10
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dmj7261No closed applications or essential libraries?10:10
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luke-jrStskeeps: core is the driver layer, not DE.10:10
luke-jrdmj7261: afaik, none of those10:10
* Termana slaps Stskeeps for the hell of it - yello10:10
luke-jrdrivers are all I care about being open, really.10:10
Stskeepscore mer is everything non-hw specific :P10:10
dmj7261okay, then that's open in my book.  My desktop uses Nvidia blobs10:10
luke-jrI can rewrite the software layer if need be10:11
Xisdibiksomeone highlight me so i can test something please10:11
luke-jrdmj7261: fail10:11
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luke-jrXisdibik: no10:11
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Xisdibikluke-jr: thanks10:11
dmj7261I don't want to be stuck running metacity in vga mode10:11
lamojolaGeneralAntilles, you asked how long I was in the Maemo community, but I'm just curious if you work for Nokia because it sounds like it.  The point I made by comparing the Asus Eee to the 770/8x0 was in weight alone.  Strip down an Asus Eee (early model), and one nearly has the same with probably more power.10:11
luke-jrdmj7261: vanilla Linux supports ATi and Intel graphics fine10:12
dmj7261If a manufacturer doesn't release the source for their drivers, I expect them to work damn well.10:12
TermanaGA went to bed10:12
Termanai think10:12
Xisdibikhe did as far as i know Termana10:12
dmj7261This computer was built before I was a Linux user...that and Intel needs better performance and ATI needs to step up their FOSS driver efforts.10:13
lamojolamikhas, I'm missing the reference to Helsinski above.10:13
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Termanalamojola lost his man10:14
dmj7261If ATI produces a performance card with top-notch FOSS linux drivers, I'll switch.10:14
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luke-jrdmj7261: as opposed to nVidia who make NO efforts?10:14
luke-jrand require you to infringe on Linux copyrights and run blobs?10:14
lamojoladmj7261, I've been out of the gaming loop for a while, so ATI doesn't have FOSS for the high-end cards?10:15
Termanai guess no one likes jokes in the middle of a flame war10:15
dmj7261If I can reasonably use FOSS for a given task I will.10:15
dmj7261Their 3D support can lag by months in the FOSS drivers10:15
luke-jrI've been using ATi for about a decade with no problems.10:15
sleipnirat least there are some open docs for _some_ of their (ATI) cards10:15
lamojolaTermana, I didn't feel a flame war.  These are some serious concerns.  I don't want to be a consumer puppet for a large corporation, going to the big-kiddie candy store everytime I want to code with my other friends.10:16
GAN900lamojola, I don't work for Nokia. :) I'm a community member and former community council member who served for a year.10:16
Termanaluke-jr, not making your drivers open instead making them blobs doesn't violate any linux copyright10:16
dmj7261Like I said, if they release comparable FOSS drivers near release to Nvidia's, I'd love to go to ATI10:17
GAN900lamojola, if you want to support open source mobile devices, buy the N900. :)10:17
Termanaluke-jr, i think you need to rephase what you said10:17
lamojoladmj7261, Do you know why it's months and not instant?10:17
luke-jrTermana: it does when they're kernel-level10:17
GAN900Then call Nokia Care and tell them why you bought thye N900.10:17
luke-jrLinux only has exceptions to the GPL for userland10:17
dmj7261It takes time for the FOSS people to understand the docs and implement drivers for them.10:17
Termanai don't think adding in a module is necessarily modifying it10:18
Stskeepsmeh, at least the kernel drivers are full oss10:18
Stskeepswhich is a huge step forward10:18
Termanamodifying the kernel that is10:18
luke-jrTermana: Linux is a monolithic kernel. there is no such thing as kernel-land without being derived from Linux itself10:18
dmj7261On the bright side, if Nvidia ever does open source their linux drivers we can expect instant quadros for windows boxen.10:18
luke-jrStskeeps: it makes them legal10:18
luke-jrthey *had* to do that10:19
Termanaluke-jr, so i guess what nokia has done is illegal as well?10:19
XisdibikGAN900: werent you going to sleep? :P10:19
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luke-jrTermana: Nokia's drivers are in userland, at least with N90010:19
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luke-jrTermana: Linux clearly makes exceptions on userland interfaces10:19
lamojolaGAN900, that's such a suggestive statement with no backing.  How does N900 help the other older devices that are quickly becoming toxic waste with Nokia eager to fill the void with a shiny new one, N1000, etc.10:20
GAN900Xisdibik, got a text message from a drunk friend and checked XChat.10:20
dmj7261ATI has a golden opportunity here10:20
GAN900lamojola, we went over this earlier.10:20
* Xisdibik quickly goes and preorders the N100010:20
luke-jrdmj7261: most people buy video cards every N years, not every N months.10:20
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luke-jra few months lag for drivers is no big deal10:20
lamojoladmj7261, Sounds reasonable though, no?10:21
dmj7261I buy every n years as well10:21
GAN900Asking Stskeeps about Nokia and open source.10:21
dmj7261But when I buy it's the current generation10:21
StskeepsGAN900: waking up with nausea and this conversation isn't helping10:21
dmj7261*note* not necessarily the top card, but the current generation10:22
luke-jrdmj7261: that's dumb, seeing as you can get better performance/$ going a few months back10:22
Termanaluke-jr, you'd never own an iphone would you? lmfao10:22
* RST38h moos at Stskeeps and GAN10:22
dmj7261The problem is that ATI can take up to a year to get proper *FOSS* drivers working.10:22
luke-jrTermana: I might, if I could be sure there were open drivers so I could just flash Gentoo on it10:22
StskeepsTermana: luke-jr would probably never own any consumer mobile hardware that he would be happy with..10:22
XisdibikStskeeps: sorry to hear about your nausea :(10:22
* dmj7261 wouldn't want an iturd either10:22
GAN900Stskeeps, hey, I'm pretty sure yo ass is paid to respond to every one of these discussions now. *eg*10:22
* RST38h sighs. ATI. NVidia. Hehe.10:22
lamojolaGAN900, wasn't here, I suppose.10:23
TermanaStskeeps, touche lol10:23
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luke-jriPhone might have a better chance of being 100% free than N81010:23
dmj7261I've mostly had good experiences with intel (Ubuntu 9.04 excepted)10:23
StskeepsGAN900: actually no, but i did forget to get "no licensing discussions with community" in my contract10:23
RST38hGo try using IGD, punks. The drivers are open sourced10:24
RST38hSo you will be fully OSS compliant.10:24
keesjluke-jr: free of free software10:24
luke-jrRST38h: GMA 500 ?10:24
luke-jrRST38h: where?10:24
dmj7261Intel drivers are nice on the FOSS front.10:24
RST38hMy laptop :)10:24
luke-jrRST38h: you have 100% open GMA 500 drivers?10:24
dmj7261...The only problem is graphics performance.10:24
RST38hOf course, it does not perform, but that is not a problem for a true OSS zealot, is it?10:24
luke-jrRST38h: the community wants to talk to you.10:25
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dmj7261They even are starting to release FOSS drivers months ahead of release of the hardware.10:25
luke-jrat least, get the code from you10:25
RST38h"You" as in what?10:25
luke-jrRST38h: you, who claims to have GMA 500 open drivers10:25
Termanaluke-jr is wagging his tail for these gma foss drivers10:25
RST38hI claim to have open drivers for the chipset in my laptop10:25
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Termanagive a dog a bone RST38h10:25
dmj7261SO either ATI with prompt, high quality FOSS drivers or powerful intel chips would be ideal.10:25
luke-jrTermana: GMA 500 is rebranded PowerVR SGX, so would basically mean open 3D for N90010:26
dmj7261Either that or Nvidia going GPL.10:26
RST38hWhich is probably G4510:26
RST38hSo, if you are willing to use G45, there are open drivers10:26
dmj7261...that's the one exception to the intel has good FOSS drivers10:26
Form0there was interesting interview with some nvidia guy explaining why it would be difficult for them to go open source.10:27
* suihkulokki heads to fetch popcorn10:27
dmj7261some dell minis ran afould of that10:27
luke-jrForm0: you mean making up BS excuses10:27
luke-jrsuihkulokki: good idea10:27
dmj7261I tire of this conversation.10:27
RST38hIf you want to use graphics that performs, suck it up and use whatever drivers manufacturer is kind enough to release upon you =)10:27
Form0well yea, of course it's still an excuse, but still :)10:27
dmj7261reason: nvidia drivers on windows and linux share 90 percent of their code10:27
thuxgood conversation for a change10:27
StskeepsGAN900: my tactic is really showing openness by doing instead of arguing constantly :P10:28
Form0And ATI has really stepped up on the linux drivers, seem to get them out better in line with windows10:28
Form0It might get a blow now that AMD lost their main linux manager10:28
Termanaluke-jr, don't you think your all-FOSS atitude is part of the reason for linux not being popular on the desktop?10:28
thuxmust say luke-jr seems to be right10:28
dmj7261My strategy is to favor FOSS wherever possible.10:28
luke-jrTermana: no. once you start including proprietary blobs, it's no longer Linux, and defeats the entire point of it.10:29
* RST38h strategy is to use whatever performs, does not break, and is cheaper10:29
luke-jrmight as well run Windows if you're going to go non-free.10:29
Form0I'm not seeing why everything has to be free..10:29
dmj7261It's not the only variable, but two things being within reasonable, the most open one wins.10:29
Form0You trying to trample developers into second class citizens?10:29
sleipnirTermana: where is your argument. giving up ones beliefs for what... popularity?10:29
* RST38h is kinda surprised why somebody would have a different strategy10:29
dmj7261Free as virtue, not as requirement.10:29
TermanaForm0, the truth is luke-jr is RMS in disguise10:30
luke-jrTermana: RMS tolerates closed source more than me10:30
dmj7261That's a scary statement10:30
* RST38h takes the kettle and the Safeway bag from luke-jr10:30
luke-jrRMS is ok with closed hardware10:30
dmj7261I've seen RMS in shouting matches over Free.10:30
Termanasleipnir, no one says you have to give up beliefs - its about reasonable expectations10:30
luke-jrI merely tolerate it :p10:30
dmj7261luke-jr will make his own Sparc chips in his basement.10:31
sleipnirTermana: then we agree, sometimes you have to live with what you get, but you should never give up pushing that state forward10:31
Form0I don't think closed source is such a baddie.. software patents on the other hand ><10:31
dmj7261I'm not looking at the n900 because it's totally open, but because it's the most open and trending in a good direction.10:32
suihkulokkiI think luke-jrs "iphone has better chances to 100% free software than n8x0" is quite telling10:32
dmj7261Don't get me going on software patents.10:32
luke-jrsuihkulokki: iPhone is s3c6410 SoC, which has completely open documentation for even 3D10:32
RST38hRMS is not ok with vehicle license tags, he says they are invading privacy.10:32
suihkulokkipeople will prefer shiny over free, even so far as reverse engineering the shiny to be free10:33
sleipnirdmj7261: it's not the most open! but it is the (probably) most open _working_ phone ;-)10:33
RST38hSo, do you REALLY want to listen to whatever RMS says?10:33
Termanasleipnir, we are in agreement. however i don't think you'll find luke-jr agreeing to our middle ground10:33
dmj7261I wasn't counting mythical devices.10:33
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sleipnirdmj7261: what's mythical about the freerunner???10:33
* RST38h sighs and goes back to internal bugtracker10:33
Form0Having totally open phones might come into snags with authorities too10:33
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luke-jrTermana: your "middle ground" is merely surrender to me. the "middle ground" of an already "middle ground"10:34
luke-jrthe true middle ground lies in closed hardware+firmware, and open software10:34
Form0botnets of N900s would surely cause mayhem with the phone networks10:34
sleipniras i said, n900 is probably the most open _working_ phone (have non yet, so i don't know)10:34
luke-jrdmj7261: actually, Freerunner software development is still ongoing in the community and now works last I heard10:34
RST38hluke-jr: Sorry, but have you ever developed any drivers or other kernel level stuff?10:34
suihkulokkiintel has free drivers but their hardwares isn't shiny, so people head to nvidia anyway (and choose to whine them not being free)10:35
dmj7261Can I buy a new Freerunner?10:35
luke-jrRST38h: I got Linux to boot on my cable modem, does that count?10:35
RST38hluke-jr: No10:35
dmj7261Will better Freerunners be developed?10:35
luke-jrdmj7261: yes, $250 direct from OpenMoko10:35
RST38hluke-jr: So, no developer?10:35
Termanaluke-jr, i think you'll find that developers have to eat too and you'll never  find your version of middle groun10:35
luke-jrdmj7261: OpenMoko cancelled their latest phone project for a lame Wikipedia reader10:35
dmj7261How does the Freerunner compare to the n900?10:35
luke-jrRST38h: I had to write code to get it to boot ;)10:36
dmj7261...I knew that...and it was my point.10:36
Stskeepsdmj7261: i wanted to kiss my n900, my freerunner i wanted to throw out the window..10:36
RST38hluke-jr: That is not what I asked about though10:36
luke-jrTermana: I am a developer. I know I have to eat.10:36
luke-jrTermana: open source has nothing to do with gratis.10:36
sleipnirdmj7261: you can buy the freerunner still, software development is ongoing... future devices... now it becomes difficult :-)10:36
RST38hluke-jr: So, you have never developed any device drivers?10:36
dmj7261...there's only so much you can improve with software10:36
luke-jrRST38h: not that I can think of10:36
sleipnirdmj7261: i fully agree10:36
RST38hThat explains why you think that you can have "open" software with "closed" hardware10:36
dmj7261I haven't developed any actually useful drivers.10:37
luke-jrStskeeps: I'd take the Freerunner, but the GSM problem is unsolvable :/10:37
dmj7261If OpenMoko looked healthy and competitive, I would be over there right now.10:37
luke-jrRST38h: by closed hardware, I mean its internal workings, not its specifications10:37
dmj7261...but Maemo is far more competitive right now.10:37
sleipnirthe most striking problem of the freerunner is the graphic performance and the battery life10:37
RST38hSo, you would like open hardware as well?10:37
luke-jrdmj7261: check out their community OS... I hear it works with that now10:37
RST38hWell, never gonna happen10:37
dmj7261that = ?10:38
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luke-jrsleipnir: they fixed/worked around the graphics issue10:38
RST38hBecause there is 1.5 billion Chinese10:38
sleipnirluke-jr: no they can't. the problem is in hardware aka the small memory bus10:38
sleipnirall you can do is to switch to QVGA to get a reasonable performance10:38
luke-jrsleipnir: I don't know what the trick was.10:39
dmj7261Nokia does deserve competition on the open platform front.10:39
dmj7261It would make them better.10:39
luke-jrsleipnir: but there was talk earlier yesterday about good framerate or such10:39
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* sleipnir is checking the mailinglist as he owns a FR10:39
dmj7261anyway: Are there any good 3D graphics engines ported to maemo?10:39
luke-jrsleipnir: it was on IRC10:40
luke-jrbleeding edge stuff10:40
sleipnirluke-jr: there is also a mail on the devel list10:40
Ceron^unreal 3 engine ported to maemo!10:40
* sleipnir is reading... sounds good10:40
Ceron^also cryengine 2 will be ported to maemo10:41
luke-jrsleipnir: ah10:41
Stskeepslamojola: re recompile for target - sadly not that easy. we had to seperate out a low of HW specific code. yes, Mer has a SDK. you can develop straight on your x86 -or- ARM device -or- cross-compile from x86 to ARM with OBS.. and yes, product leap frogging has been bad but they are getting better at taking input now with Fremantle/Harmattan.. open replacements are always good when there's a huge amount of people willing to do it and h10:42
Stskeeps... time.. but there isn't in this community.. there is both Mer and community SSU efforts for Nokia N8x0, and even gentoo if you swing that way :P10:42
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sleipnirStskeeps: don't make fun of gentoo ;-P10:43
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luke-jrStskeeps: wanna convince someone to send me a N900 so I get Gentoo working on it?10:44
Stskeepsluke-jr: i have to pay 250 eur like every other developer to get a n900 of my own :P10:44
Stskeepsdeveloper that has karma, that is10:44
luke-jroh well10:45
luke-jryou'd need to get them to buy me service too cuz I ain't paying ripoff GSM US prices :p10:45
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Stskeepsluke-jr: but add yourself to the queue for loaner devices10:45
dmj7261I think it would be good to have tools to write 3D games other than straight OGL ES 210:45
sleipnirStskeeps: where can you do that?10:45
luke-jrStskeeps: I think I did, but I don't care enough to check :p10:46
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* Stskeeps blinks at a recent change to Mer/Nokia Wishlist10:46
Stskeeps"possibility to install to Nokia E90 Communicator (since end of life cycle)"10:47
* lbt has no idea about E90 internals...10:48
Stskeepsit does sound like a sweet mer target but still .. :P10:48
* luke-jr imagines it was added by Stskeeps's new boss... ;)10:48
lbtsounds 'plain' to me ;)10:48
lbtwhich is no bad thing10:49
Stskeepsomap2420, 128mb ram ..10:49
JaffaMorning, all10:50
Stskeepse90, luke-jr10:50
Stskeepsmorning jaffa10:50
lbthi Jaffa10:50
luke-jrStskeeps: so it's a N8x0?10:50
Stskeepsluke-jr: nah, this one has an actual camera10:50
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lbtphone HW would be hard to access10:52
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luke-jrlbt: Stskeeps is an employee now :p10:52
lbtE90 non-Communicator10:52
Stskeepsluke-jr: of yeah10:52
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luke-jrStskeeps: how comes 3D and GPS?10:53
iomarigreetings, is it possible to connect a usb2ehternet device on the nokia n900?10:53
Stskeepsiomari: no USB OTG though some speculate usb host is possible10:53
Stskeepsluke-jr: 3d? good, TI finally answered to some10:53
Stskeepsluke-jr: i'm planning on looking on the GPS stuff in december10:54
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* RST38h meaningfully contributed to the religious tmo thread:
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dmj726I started the above thread to encourage discussion of porting a graphics engine to maemo!10:58
luke-jrdmj726: why not just use GLES directly? -.-;;10:58
RST38hdmj726: So, what is the problem? Download the source code and start coding!10:58
dmj726GLES is a very low level library (reinventing the wheel issue)10:59
luke-jrdmj726: the one 3D game I develop for is raw OpenGL11:00
recalcatiiomari: normally linux easily provide it, check beagleboard, but check also kernel possibilities is maemo11:00
iomarirecalcati: ok thanks.11:00
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alteregoI like the idea of porting the ogre engine, it's a really nice piece of software.11:00
alteregoThough, it's quite a large system.11:00
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dmj726I'm not sure this is really a problem, but getting others involved is a good thing, particularly if they have more 3D graphics experience than me.11:01
alteregoDoes it support ES?11:01
dmj726I think the ES 2.0 is the issue right now with OGRE11:01
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RST38hdmj726: This is not how you involve others. You involve others by doing something yourself11:01
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alteregoApparently it has ES1.0/1.1 support but not 2.011:02 clue how much effort would be required to add 2.0 support11:03
dmj726the iphone folks haven't managed that yet11:03
alteregoI think Horde has 2.0 support.11:03
dmj726Horde might be a good candidate.11:03
dmj726I heard that someone was planning some porting work, but that was a year ago.11:04
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alteregoI like the fact that in the ' Applications/Extras/" thread everyone is still refering to it as " Extras" or "Extras". So even with the name change, are we all still going to call it "extras"?11:15
alteregoThis is going to get quite confusing I think.11:16
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hrwrepo is extras anyway11:16
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alteregoI think " Applications" is a good idea really, because we can juust refer to it as community applications or " Applications" extras does sound a bit bolt-on-ish to me.11:17
iomarirecalcati: Stskeeps I'm just readin up on usb otg. Does this mean I can connect a flash or external usb drive to the n900?11:17
alteregoiomari, the N900 does not have host mode capability11:18
alteregoThis is because (I believe) the charging over USB conflicts with host mode capability, so the hardware is not capable of doing it.11:18
alteregoUnlike the N8XX devices.11:18
iomarialterego: damn.thanks. how about a usb bridge? Does that require ost mode?11:18
Stskeepsiomari: please don't assume that this is possible though. speculation :P11:18
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alteregoI don't know what a "USB Bridge" is :)11:19
iomarialterego: it's like a usb cross cable.11:19
alteregoI think SDIO hacks are the only hardware extensibility we have.11:19
* luke-jr speculates Stskeeps.11:20
alteregoNo, I doubt that'd work.11:20
iomaridamn again :-)11:20
iomarii guess I'm stuck with wifi11:20
hrwor bt11:20
hrwor usbdevicenet11:20
iomaribt? too slow.11:21
luke-jror GSM11:21
iomariwhat the hell is usbdevicenet11:21
luke-jror webcam/LCD11:21
hrwiomari: you connect n900 to desktop and use usb ethernet emulation11:21
hrwinstead of usb mass storage11:21
iomarihrw: connect with wifi?11:22
hrwusb cable11:22
luke-jrUSB Bridge would work if the N900 has client end11:22
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iomarihrw: that's what i meant.that will suffice.11:22
iomariluke-jr: that's even better.thanks11:22
alteregoI don't see what that solves though, it's not going to allow you to connect it to an external drive.11:26
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recalcatiiomari: usb otg means that is you use normal small usb connector the N900 works as an usb gadget, instead if you use mini-A to mini-B usb connector it wokrs as an usb host. Then, if you connect usb to lan interface and have the driver for it , it will work11:26
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iomarirecalcati: interesting. thanks11:27
hrwrecalcati: sure, thats how OTG works. but n900 usb port is not OTG11:27
hrwunless something changed in last days11:27
alteregoI think it's safe to say nothing has changed, because of the power-over-usb charging suppport.11:28
alteregoWhich has not dissapeared :P11:28
dmj726who needs to actually *charge* the device?11:28
hrwrecalcati: so remember: n8x0 has OTG, n900 lacks OTG and only have client usb ;(11:29
dmj726just remove the phone's battery and use an external charger!11:29
alteregoI don't, but then, I don't have a "device" :P11:29
alteregoWhat's the status on N8XX power vr driver support?11:29
recalcatihrw:  ok11:29
recalcatihrw:  but I hope it will have11:29
dmj726It will automatically support OpenGL 3.2.11:30
luke-jrand OpenVR 511:30
Stskeepsalterego: TI is responsive11:30
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alteregoStskeeps: are they available yet?11:31
luke-jrsts go ping11:31
luke-jrTI go pong11:31
Stskeepsalterego: not yet11:31
Stskeepswill be eventually11:31
alterego*grumble* *grumble* :P11:32
alteregoIf I'm not getting an N900 any time soon, it'd be nice to flesh out some of my ideas on the N810 with 3D acceleration. :)11:32
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alteregoI guess I should learn Qt then, if that's the way things are going :(11:34
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dmj726alterego: are you considering getting an n900 and it's the whole shipping thing or are you planning on sticking with n8x0?11:34
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alteregoI'm considering getting one, but when it comes down in price. I didn't get accepted for the device programme and 500 GBP is just too steep.11:35
dmj726I'm on the other side of the pond and need a new phone11:35
alteregoI'ver calculated I can sell my old mobile handsets for half the price, so I'd in theory reclaim some of the expense, but still ...11:35
dmj726Current phone only makes one way phone calls.11:36
dmj726I can hear anyone I call.11:36
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alteregoHah, nice.11:36
alteregoWell, I've got an N96 and an N95 8G11:36
alteregoI can sell both of those for 250 GBP11:36
dmj726Usually, it's "Hello? Hello?..." click11:36
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dmj726I haven't had a Nokia since snake was a new thing for them.11:37
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dmj726Which was before AT&T became Cingular became AT&T11:38
* rmrfchik is confused... n900 or Androiud based?11:40
alteregoOh, I'd never get an Android,11:40
alteregoThe Nokia Maemo platform is a lot more flexible.11:40
tigertrmrfchik: you expect an objective answer here? :)11:40
alteregoI think from a user's perspective though, Android is a powerful contender.11:40
Termanaif you want sexy get the motorola droid if you want functional and part sexy go n90011:40
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dmj726Droid has more apps, n900 has the potential for better apps11:41
rmrfchiktigert: sure no!11:41
dmj726n900 has a better camera11:41
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rmrfchikbut will maemo6 will run on n900?11:42
rmrfchikmaemo5 is dead on born, it's GTK based11:42
dmj726Maemo 5 supports Qt11:42
tigertmaemo5 works fine on n90011:42
Termanasince the droid is sexier, get one if you want to look like a regular consumer. you will be bowed to, like iphone users are11:42
tigertits like not buying a 2009 car because there will be the 2010 model11:43
rmrfchikdmj726: i'm not talking about "supporting". I'm talking about resource usage11:43
tigertthe 2009 model wont stop working on dec 3111:43
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dmj726I don't get the GTK comment?11:43
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Termanarmrfchik, i bet you build your own pcs too right? probably a gamer?11:44
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alteregoI think that was me saying I'm going to have to get familiar with Qt as this seems to be the way things are heading.11:44
rmrfchikTermana: you win11:44
dmj726n900 is definitely good for the DIY crowd11:44
Termanarmrfchik, as soon as you said resource usage i knew11:45
rmrfchikTermana: it's other my side which crys for resources.11:45
Termanafor anyone that doesn't know rmrfchik is complaining about the fact maemo 5 will have to load the qt libraries on top of the gtk ones. like when your using gnome and want to use a kde app11:46
rmrfchikto have 2 GUI libs loaded (ok, mmaped) on the small device isn't good for speed11:46
dmj726android will have to run apps in the java sandbox11:47
rmrfchikTermana: it doesn't matter on desktop, right? it does matter on small device ;)11:47
dmj726...that's one of the bigger things that annoys me about android.11:47
dmj726rmrfchik: I can see that point...more stuff gets pushed to the virtual memory in the case of heavy multitasking11:48
Termanarmrfchik, i'm not arguing where it matters - i was just making sure everyone knew what you were talking  about :P11:48
rmrfchikTermana: stop reading my mind! get out of my head!11:48
dmj726Perhaps someone can test the effects of this?11:48
alteregoMost applicatons, right now, are Gtk+ based, I expect people will be using Qt on N900 in preparation for maemo611:48
Termanaoops sorry bout that *gets out of rmrfchik's head*11:49
alteregoSo, maybe mid-next year, it'll be 50/50 and by the end of next year it'll be 90% Qt :P11:49
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dmj726and then we all get an upgrade on our n900s to maemo 6 :P11:50
alteregoSo expect your device to be slowest in August next year :)11:50
Termanalol people will wonder why their devices are getting slower over time11:50
alteregoWell, now we have an answer :P11:51
rmrfchikram cells becomes more dirty11:51
dmj726No they won't...not the people who are used to windoz at least.11:51's the linux registry, obviously11:51
alteregoI think the speed decrease will be marginal.11:51
dmj726You'll only see a decrease if you're using swap11:52
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MyrttiI suggest you stick to
Myrttino slowing during lifespam11:52
Myrttino memory problem11:52
Myrttiworks a charm.11:53
dmj726makes for a great wii peripheral!11:53
alteregoOh, has anyone ported libwiicd?11:55
alteregoOr whatever it's called :)11:55
alteregolibcwiid ..11:55
alteregoI think I'll do it now.11:55
dmj726wiimote works on n90011:55
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alteregoOh, nice.11:56
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TermanaMyrtti, fail - there is a memory problem. the problem is it has none. lol11:56
dmj726haven't you seen the video of tv out + snes emulator + wiimotes?11:56
dmj726on n90011:56
alteregoNope :P11:56
dmj726google it11:56
alteregoTeehee, screaming baby in the background :)11:58
dmj726neglected by lucky *******with an n90011:58
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Stskeepsmoo johnx12:34
johnxjust got back from work12:35
Stskeepsyou managed to miss the typical oss discussion :P12:35
Ceron^ why get a bugatti when you can have a n90012:35
johnxah. bonus12:35
johnxalso: I'm becoming less impressed with vmware12:35
Termanayello johnx12:36
johnxStskeeps, hint: I just got back from work and it's 2:36AM Monday here :)12:37
Stskeepsjohnx: ah12:37
johnxTermana, allo12:37
Stskeepspoint taken12:37
johnxit was supposed to be a regular maintenance window, but it appears that there is some kind of weird glitch in the vmware network card driver which affects our phone system (all centralized, IP phones, yada yada yada)12:38
Stskeepsah, yeah, i've run into those :P12:38
Termanado you at least get paid overtime johnx? :P12:38
johnxTermana, yup. :)12:38
Stskeepsright, i'll give a cookie to the first guy making clone to SD for n90012:39
* Stskeeps is getting sick of reinstalling broken backups.12:39
Termananot all bad then :P you just need some optimisim and a push in the right direction12:39
Termanapreferably off the building. lol j/k12:40
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johnxTermana, I'd rather have free time than money, actually. or at least, I'd rather have more than time and a half :>12:40
johnxI now have at least another off-hours maintenance window to schedule to swap out the NIC and hope it helps12:41
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Termanawhy not ask for double time and cite medical insanity from stupid ass software as the reason12:42
Termanasay you'll sue them for the induced insanity otherwise! :P lol12:43
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johnxeh, I just want them to give the go-ahead for me to start switching to xen or kvm or (*&#$#ing anything else12:44
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Stskeepsright, rsync -aHx to external sd, plug sd in laptop, make a ubifs out of it.. this ought to work12:45
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johnxtangential: I'm always interested when people all seem to use vaguely different rsync arguments with the goal of accomplishing the same thing12:46
Stskeepsx is the important one here .. don't go across fs limits12:47
johnxah, neat. I use a different trick for that12:47
johnxa bind mount12:47
Stskeepsif you didn't see, btw12:47
johnxflasher images!12:48
Stskeepsand new sdk updates12:48
johnxooooh. not a MAC addr this time :>12:48
Stskeepsah, imei instead12:48
johnxGUI installer for the SDK! wow. step in the right direction at least12:49
johnxI wish they'd push the vmware image more prominently12:49
devmaxjohnx: hmpf? can you post link :D12:49
Stskeepsjohnx: that does point a bit to that they'll ship today12:50
devmaxi don't see any images, where is your source12:50
Stskeeps wtf12:50
johnxdevmax, vmware image? flasher image?12:50
johnxflasher images are here:
devmaxjohnx: thank you12:50
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zaheermcan now update the preproduction n90012:51
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johnxI was hoping for an SSU :(12:51
zaheermthx johnx12:51
Stskeepsand new kernel sources published12:51
* Stskeeps was getting worried12:51
johnxguess it's a good time to reflash and clean up :/12:51
Termanalmao i got kicked from #ubuntu-offtopic12:52
Stskeepsoh, hey12:52
Stskeepsthey published libjpeg6b12:52
johnxactually, no, (&#$ that. it's 3AM here. I should do that tomorrow ...12:52
johnxs/tomorrow/later today/12:52
infobotjohnx meant: actually, no, (&#$ that. it's 3AM here. I should do that later today ...12:52
ccookeMorning, all12:52
devmaxjohnx: can i just put 123456121234560 as IMEI there ? :D12:52
Stskeepsthat's a lot of L3/L4 going to L1/L212:53
Termanamorning ccooke12:53
johnxmornin' ccooke12:53
johnxStskeeps, very cool12:53
Stskeepswtf was this closed source for so long12:53
johnxwhich one?12:54
johnxheh. I'd love to believe there are some insanely cool optimizations12:54
Stskeepsosso-icons as source12:54
ccookeStskeeps: I *think* there were patent issues originally12:54
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hrwfew new questions I have12:55
hrw1. does n900 xserver supports rotation out-of-box with xrandr or not?12:55
Stskeepsjohnx: osso-icons are still limited but at least they are providing a source package12:56
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Stskeepswith a restrictive license12:56
_berto_SDK updated again today ?12:56
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timeless_mbptigert: i'm not buying a 2010 model (it's that time of year) because 2015 models will happen!12:56
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Stskeeps_berto_: yeah12:56
kalikianahrw, you can switch an option whether it's automatic or not12:57
Stskeepswoo, maemoblocks source :P12:57
hrwkalikiana: thx12:57
hrwStskeeps: url?12:57
hrwStskeeps: as I am tired of navigating on and guessing where all is this time12:58
tigerttimeless_mbp: pretty much yeah12:58
johnxhrw, it does. but using the CLI xrandr ... doesn't work as expected :)12:58
hrwjohnx: thx12:58
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hrw~deeplycurse maemo so called admins for crappy sorting of directories on repository.maemo.org12:59
Stskeepsakamai issue probablly12:59
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hrwStskeeps: for me it does not matter where it is kept. it is so I curse them13:00
timeless_mbpStskeeps: err, is my xref out of date already?13:00
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: possibly..13:00
timeless_mbpyou guys all suck13:01
* timeless_mbp curses the world13:01
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: hey, i have to update again in mer too :P13:01
* timeless_mbp ponders13:01
JaffaYay, firmware13:01
johnxhuh. dunno why I didn't think of this earlier: running: ssh -Y johnx@desktop from my n900 and inspecting its X server with xdpyinfo/xev/xset from my desktop :)13:02
hrwbut what is rx-71?13:02
zerojayAnyone else have the problem where sometimes the n900 forgets it's being charged by USB and just drains?13:02
timeless_mbphrw: output from a random generator13:02
johnxhrw, it was mentioned in some kernel drivers. no word from nokia13:02
timeless_mbpin the spirit of 'maemo' itself :)13:02
timeless_mbpwe sometimes generate random bits to see if people will spend months guessing13:03
SpeedEvilWhat is the spirit of maemo? Vodka?13:03
johnxzerojay, I've seen mine never *start* charging13:03
timeless_mbpand then we stop using them13:03
Jaffazerojay: Yes. I believe it's fixed in 42-1113:03
jeremiah2hrw: Deeply curse apt-ftparchive since it is the default. :P13:03
johnxbut I've never seen it start draining after initially charging13:03
timeless_mbphi jeremiah13:04
timeless_mbpwanna write a build script for me? :)13:04
* timeless_mbp doesn't want to write one13:04
jeremiah2I rather have anthrax. :)13:04
jeremiah2How about OBS?13:04
timeless_mbphrm... that could be arranged13:04
jeremiah2All the cool kids are using it.13:04
timeless_mbpdoes obs not use debian/rules ?13:04
timeless_mbpand is obs compatible w/ the maemo repos?13:05
jeremiah2I builds debs13:05
infobotjeremiah2 meant: It builds debs13:05
timeless_mbpyeah, i need a debian/rules file :)13:05
hrw10.5MB kernel diff13:05
timeless_mbpbut i want to have a .deb src to give to the maemo repos13:05
Stskeepshrw: linux-omap is included in that though13:05
hrwStskeeps: I know13:06
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hrwjeremiah2: apt-ftparchive just generate Packages/Sources files.13:06
hrwjeremiah2: webserver exports directories. and this is where @$^@^@@$#! is present13:06
hrwStskeeps: I would prefer them to rather ship 2.6.28 + omap1 + rx51 patch13:07
jeremiah2hrw: No - the repos are automatically organized13:07
zaheermflashing emmc means everything under MyDocs will get erased right?13:07
jeremiah2We don't do any manual moving around of stuff.13:07
jeremiah2We don't do any manual dir naming13:07
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hrwjeremiah2: and you also do not have any sorting in DirectoryIndex part of apache config13:08
Jaffazaheerm: Anything under /home (including MyDocs)13:08
jeremiah2hrw: You are not meant to browse the repos with a web browser.13:08
zaheermJaffa, ok, time to backup :)13:08
timeless_mbpjeremiah: aww, but it's so much fun13:08
timeless_mbpmy web browser is wget13:08
hrwjeremiah2: but I do. and that error was reported long time ago iirc13:08
Stskeepsjeremiah2: yeah, but there's insane people like me as well :P13:08
timeless_mbpjeremiah: you should see the scripts i use13:08
hrwjeremiah2: remember that there is a world outside of maemo13:09
jeremiah2Why don't you guys use something like debmirror?13:09
jeremiah2Or the tools already out there written for this type of thing13:09
jeremiah2There is a world outside of your browser13:09
hrwjeremiah2: I have n810 and 770 working with non-Maemo systems and need some stuff from maemo sources for them13:09
hrwjeremiah2: sure.. and to grab kernel patches I need to debmirror whole maemo/os2008?13:09
jeremiah2hrw: But maemo has to support lots of devices, people and machines.13:09
ccookeHmm. Recommendation is to do a complete reflash on the prerelease n900 and don't restore backup, right?13:10
hrwmaemo and lots of devices.... please, do not make me laugh ok?13:10
jeremiah2So I think you ought to have just a little understanding that we need to provide a plain vanilla environment that works for as many UA's as possible.13:10
hrwjeremiah2: so far maemo has ~5 years and supports 5-6 devices13:10
timeless_mbpjeremiah: =)13:11
jeremiah2so what about the SDK? debian? Ubuntu? Q5?13:11
hrw770, n800, n810, n810we, n900 is 5. 770-128M can be 6th but it was nokia internal13:11
johnxhrw, wait, the question was directory sorting, right? what dir isn't sorted?13:12
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hrwjohnx: it is sorted by date instead of name.13:13
hrwtimeless_mbp: 770 with 128MB ram13:13
johnxI have it sorted by name. I think your akamai mirror is temporarily confused13:13
timeless_mbphrw: was this some third party hack or what?13:13
hrwjeremiah2: what is a problem in enabling FancyIndexes in apache name?13:13
hrwtimeless_mbp: from what I got from in-nokia friends it was internal before n80013:14
hrws/apache name/apache config13:14
dmj726Does the new SDK still have the inverted colors bug?13:14
timeless_mbpyeah, it has another name13:14
tbfhow long does it usually take until an autobuild package shows up on "apt-get update"?13:14
timeless_mbphypothetically :)13:14
hrwjohnx: I have z, libb, libj at the end13:14
timeless_mbpmaemo kernel :(13:15
johnxhrw, ah, didn't look all the way down. most of them are sorted correctly, most of the time13:15
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timeless_mbpStskeeps: so um13:16
timeless_mbpthe repo now has fewer packages13:16
hrw is very old dir and sorted randomly13:16
timeless_mbpclinkc-av-gnomevfs disappeared13:16
timeless_mbpclutter disappeared13:16
timeless_mbpoh no13:17
timeless_mbpreading diffs is hard :)13:17
* timeless_mbp sighs13:17
timeless_mbpstupid diff directionality13:17
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* timeless_mbp sighs13:18
timeless_mbpok, so i only care about things that have changed13:19
timeless_mbpthat's doable...13:19
hrwtimeless_mbp: use midnight commander to travel though diff13:19
* timeless_mbp hates mc13:19
mathiasganyone knows when the N900 gets released?13:19
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jeremiah2mathiasg: What is the N900?13:20
ccookemathiasg: technically it is released. Some people might have it tomorrow, most of the pre-orders will be in the next few days13:20
johnxmathiasg, they delay it 2 months every time someone asks :(13:20
jeremiah2mathiasg: It should be shipping already in certain parst.13:20
Stskeepsjust like the pandora13:20
johnxStskeeps, hey, they have *parts* of the finished case in their hands :D13:21
johnxit was a close thing down to the end13:21
* timeless_mbp grumbles13:21
timeless_mbpok, what the heck did they do to chavo13:21
timeless_mbpit looks like someone changed the checksums on files13:22
timeless_mbpshouldn't files in repos never change?13:22
Stskeepsnah, they can if they get updated13:22
mathiasgjeremiah2, any idea when I can expect it to not be advertised as a pre order though?13:22
dmj726what about updates?13:22
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timeless_mbpStskeeps: shouldn't the version of the package change?13:23
Stskeepstechnically but if its rebuilt..13:23
johnxaaaah, a change without a package version bump. that's poor practice13:23
johnx<- learned that in the early days of mer, IIRC13:24
jeremiah2mathiasg: Where are you located?13:24
timeless_mbpjohnx: it's my practice, but it's evil13:24
mathiasgjeremiah2, UK13:24
timeless_mbpso i like it as long as i'm the only one doing it :)13:24
jeremiah2mathiasg: All I can say is that it should be soon, not sure why your particular vendor is giving you that message.13:25
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jeremiah2In Sweden I have heard it won't be out until December13:25
johnxif you're 100% sure no one downloaded before you did that sneaky "rebuild/update" you're in the clear. just like running a red light with no one around13:25
johnxit's still a bad habit13:25
timeless_mbpit's funny13:25
timeless_mbpin finland people will wait for red lights to change in the middle of nowhere13:26
dmj726can the n900 do ogl es 1.1?13:26
timeless_mbpbut clearly in @nokia, we don't follow that13:26
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: international company :P13:26
timeless_mbpjeremiah: oops, i forgot in my pastebin13:26
timeless_mbpit's kinda important :)13:26
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jeremiah2what be that?13:28
johnxdmj726, can you give me an easy way to check for you?13:28
dmj726I tried googling for it already13:28
timeless_mbpjeremiah: basically i have a set of 4 scripts that convert a Sources file into a sources tree13:28
johnxdmj726, pretend I have an n900. how would I find out?13:28
timeless_mbpone downloads the files listed in Sources(13:28
timeless_mbpone extracts and patches them13:28
timeless_mbpone renames them13:28
timeless_mbpand one kills the evil bits13:28
dmj726I don't have an n90013:29
timeless_mbpwoohoo, expando finished :)13:29
jeremiah2Is it in the same pastebin?13:29
johnxdmj726, that's my point. tell me how I can help you find out if this n900 I'm holding supports gl es 1.1 :)13:29
timeless_mbpit's the one i forgot13:29
Stskeepstheres gles 1.1 libs i think13:30
Stskeepsin sdk13:30
johnxalso, glxinfo is not helpful in this regard :)13:30
* ccooke wonders how many people with prerelease n900s have flashed so far13:31
dmj726look for gles 1.1 headers?13:31
jeremiah2ccooke: I'm about to :)13:31
alteregoHas /anyone/ done any OpenGL ES 2.0 stuff on the N900 yet?13:31
johnxccooke, holding off til tomorrow. I don't want to stay up putting my contacts back on etc, tonight13:31
alteregoIt'd be nice if the wiki section had a bit more information on environment and maybe a really cheap sample.13:32
zaheermccooke, i am rsync-ing my /home :)13:32
ccookejohnx: so you're doing the full from-scratch reflash, then?13:32
ccookezaheerm: ditto ;-)13:32
johnxdmj726, I have: /usr/lib/ but not a GLESv1.so13:32
zaheermccooke, in preparation13:32
johnxccooke, seems most sane13:32
dmj726on the device?13:32
ccookejohnx: yeah.13:32
johnxI'd like to clear out the remnants of some extras-devel/extras-testing stuff in the process13:32
johnxdmj726, no headers on the device13:33
johnx(no headers for *anything* on the device)13:33
timeless_mbpyou could use :)13:33
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dmj726then how do you compile stuff on the device?13:33
* timeless_mbp grumbles13:33
timeless_mbpwhy the heck?13:33
* timeless_mbp curses13:34
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alteregoNFS mounted include directories? :)13:34
timeless_mbpstupid stupid stupid stupid stupid13:34
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johnxdmj726, you either install all the headers from the -dev packages (totally not supported) or you *don't* compile on device13:34
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timeless_mbpand installing all the -dev packages is a terrible idea :)13:34
johnxalterego, might be more sane to mount a microSD as /usr/include13:35
timeless_mbpheck, a symlink from /usr/include to VFAT would be ok13:35
Shapeshiftercrashanddie: and I did so happily, talking to religious people about religious topics is mostly nonsensical and I've come to the conclusion that mockery is the best way of communicating with them.13:35
dmj726so stick to python for on device programming13:35
timeless_mbpunless someone's evil and uses symlinks in /usr/include13:35
alteregoMaybe, I guess it depends on your environment.13:35
* timeless_mbp wonders how evil people are13:35
timeless_mbpif they're evil, make it a symlink to ext3 :)13:35
hrwtimeless_mbp: which happens13:35
timeless_mbphrw: ...13:35
timeless_mbpjeremiah / Stskeeps : what the heck are ?13:36
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hrw12:37 hrw@home:include$ find . -type l|wc 11      11     16013:37
hrw11 symlinks in my /usr/include/ on Debian system13:37
alteregoI think I prefer NFS, as it can integrate with my scratchbox environment.13:38
jeremiah2timeless_mbp: Config files for CDBS?13:38
johnxdmj726, libgles1 seems to be available but not installed by default. that might be your answer :)13:38
* johnx sleeps13:38
timeless_mbpthat's helpful, what's a cdbs, and can i eat it?13:38
jeremiah2CDBS is delicious!13:38
jeremiah2It is Yet Another way to build debian packages13:39
jeremiah2And it is not nice.13:39
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jeremiah2It is not widely used13:39
hrwhej TomaszD13:39
timeless_mbpno kidding13:39
timeless_mbpgiven there are only 10 consumers in
jeremiah2There was a talk at debconf this year about debhelper and its market share, debhelper and dpkg-buildpackage are the most common ways to build packages in debian.13:40
TomaszDhrw, hej.13:40
jeremiah2So you can safely ignore CDBS :P13:40
timeless_mbpyeah, as long as i don't care about sqlite, cairo, atk, libnotify, pango, grep, or glade13:40
jeremiah2Yeah - who cares about them?13:40
* timeless_mbp 13:40
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jeremiah2And grep should not be CDBS . . .13:41
dmj726isn't sqlite necessary for firefox?13:41
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timelesswe have our own copy13:42
timelessand the same fo cairo13:42
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hrwand same for 90% of other libraries?13:43
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timelesswe used to have a copy of pango too13:43
timelesswe *should* have made a copy of libnotify13:44
hrwand make mglibc13:44
hrwand then meglibc for maemo813:45
timelessthose idiots changed their abi w/o bumping soname13:45
TomaszDI have a summit device, should I flash the fiasco image first and then the eMMC or the other way around, how should this be handled?13:45
timelessback up13:45
timelesscopy off device13:45
timelessreflash both13:45
_marcell_TomaszD: fiasco first, then eMMC13:46
timelessdon't bother booting between13:46
TomaszDI have offsite backups :) alright13:46
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Stskeepsso no -R flag13:46
Stskeepsbefore emmc is flashed :P13:46
hrwso backup of whole 32GB is suggested just for system update?13:46
TomaszDno, this is a special case.13:47
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TomaszDno need to reflash the eMMC in the production devices.13:47
hrwand production devices are not yet shipped ;(13:47
TomaszDwell, that's too bad, why don't you start a thread about it on talk.maemo ;)13:48
TomaszDStskeeps, so where should I *not* put the -R flag? when flashing the fiasco image?13:48
hrwTomaszD: please... I am not author of ITT new threads ;D13:49
hrwTomaszD: during 3 years of using maemo devices I did not posted more then 20 posts there probably13:49
TomaszDhrw, I know you, you're the openmoko guy from Poland, right?13:49
hrwTomaszD: no, I am one of first openmoko-gta01 owners in Poland and also my name is in many openmoko related places. but I never worked for openmoko directly13:50
hrwTomaszD: but I also one of those who can enter #openmoko-devel channel13:51
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TomaszDwell, I wanted to get the openmoko, but... I'm glad I didn't actually.13:52
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TomaszDI mean the freerunner13:52
TomaszDok, bbl13:52
hrwTomaszD: I know13:52
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zaheermsomeone should tell nokia: gives not found13:54
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kirmathe situation might be interpreted as an attempt by somebody to update the page... and fail at that :)13:55
Stskeepsgah.. what is the device or resource busy fix for flasher again?13:56
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ccookeHmm. backups done. Time to try reflashing.14:04
jeremiah2What eMMC stand for?14:04
zaheermccooke, good luck14:04
RST38hjeremiah^2: Your builtin memory card14:06
kalikianaStskeeps, sudo modprobe -r cdc_phonet14:07
kirmacalling it a "card" is an overstatement14:07
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tbfstrange, that the packages are not listed as published yet:
jeremiah2RST38h: Thanks14:08
RST38hCrawl/bot voting is now blocked.14:08
RST38hWe're still working with the false votes.14:08
* RST38h still got some before it was blocked though14:09
jeremiah2RST38h: Yeah, we'll have to wait for Xfade to return and look through his code.14:09
alteregoHrm, I need to create a "meta" package for Ruby14:09
RST38hjeremiah: Well, why not delete all votes made since Nov 10?14:09
jeremiah2alterego: Actually, that might be good idea.14:09
jeremiah2RST38h: Seems a bit excessive.14:10
RST38hjeremiah: The snr ratio there is gonna be so high that you can disregard the correct votes14:10
alteregojeremiah2: are you a Ruby user?14:10
Stskeepskalikiana: ?14:10
RST38hjeremiah: Not really: we are talking about 6 days of votes at most14:10
jeremiah2alterego: No, perl user, but I think there are people who would like ruby on the device14:10
* alterego runs the test suite14:10
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RST38hjeremiah: Given how unfrequently people vote, you are not missing many14:10
alteregoYeah, I want to promote it to testing, but I figure having the meta-package now would be a good idea.14:10
jeremiah2RST38h: Removing votes, for nearly any reason, is a bad idea.14:10
alteregoIt's in extras-devel at the moment.14:11
jeremiah2alterego: Cool14:11
RST38hjeremiah: Again, no idea is a bad idea in 100% cases14:11
alteregoI'm going to upload libhildon1-ruby14:11
RST38h(and I do include cannibalism :))14:11
Stskeepswhat was the conclusion on the google bot votes again? :P14:11
RST38hSts: They say they have fixed it14:11
ccookeRight. Flash the OS first, then the MMC - right?14:11
kalikianaStskeeps, "what is the device or resource busy fix for flasher again?"14:11
Stskeepskalikiana: hm, ok14:12
kalikianaThat's what works for me at least14:13
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ccooke(Wait, the emmc is 41-1? I thought this was 42-11. Oh, different versions?)14:13
jeremiah2I'm using 41-114:13
jeremiah2But that is the 'plain vanilla'14:13
jeremiah2There are others for other regions14:14
jeremiah242-11 looks to be for the US14:14
ccookethose aren't the eMMC14:14
jeremiah2Sorry, 42-11.00214:14
kalikianavanilla is not a region. think of it as without flavour14:14
ccookethe "plain vanilla" file is the eMMC. The three region-specific files are the OS14:14
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jeremiah2mce postinstall script failing in SDK14:19
_marcell_jeremiah2: do you have any logs? It works for me, btw.14:22
jeremiah2_marcell_: Not yet, trying to find out why14:24
jeremiah2_marcell_: I think it may be persmissions issues, which I'm trying to solve now. :)14:24
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zaheermok backup complete, going for the flashing14:26
andre__i wonder once again how to call Target Milestones in Bugzilla... "5.0 (1.2009.42-11)" and "5.0 (2.2009.xx-yy)"? or "5.1 (2.2009.xx-yy)"? hmm, hmm, hmm...14:26
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wazdHeya all14:27
lizardois it only me or garage SVN is veeery slow today ?14:27
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lizardoit is taking like 10 min to commit a simple less than one 1KB commit14:28
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Stskeepswazd o/14:28
lizardoseems to be hanging on on some commit hook14:28
RST38hWhere do I get N900 firmware promised by Quim?14:30
RST38hIs there a URL?14:30
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andre__RST38h, i guess - haven't tried myself though14:31
RST38hAhaaa! Thanks!14:31
bedboihi guys, is developer program already closed?14:31
RST38hGot 200 karma points?14:32
bedboijust 5614:34
* Jaffa formulates his "you read tmo so I don't have to" plan a bit more14:34
andre__bedboi, you need 20014:34
andre__to participate14:34
bedboiquite silly, i don't want to spam :)14:35
bedboiso i guess i won't participate14:35
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waz2Damned phone14:35
JaffaI also believe it's closed.14:35
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bedboiok, too busy right now, is there any chance to get a discount for companies wanting to target N* ?14:36
bedboifor _SMALL_ companies :)14:37
* SpeedEvil ponders metalstorm getting a few dozen devices.14:37
Jaffabedboi: Contact Forum Nokia. It has device programmes ongoing for commercial entities14:37 ?14:37
Jaffabedboi: No.
JaffaSign up for an account, and read up on "Commercial entity opportunities"14:38
RST38hbedboi: Let me clarify this14:38
zaheermok flashed....14:38
RST38hbedboi: In order to develop for N900 you do not need any karma. SDK is totally free.14:38
RST38hbedboi: So is documentation. No NDAs, no license agreements, nothing.14:39
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RST38hbedboi: If you hoped for a free or discounted device, it is too late now14:39
RST38hbedboi: To get a discount on N900 you had to have 200 karma14:39
SpeedEvilOr get a 'free' device through a contract.14:39
RST38hbedboi: Having said that, the discount is nice but not drastic, and you are not getting the warranty14:40
JaffaOr be a commercial partner.14:40
timeless_mbpor get one through FN?14:40
SpeedEvilWhich is not actually expensive - where available - comparable to similar phones, maybe cheaper.14:40
RST38hbedboi: So, killing yourself over missing the opportunity is kinda pointless14:40
mikhasor find it at the back of a taxi in amsterdam14:40
bedboiRST38h, i know well.14:40
timeless_mbpmikhas: =)14:40
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bedboiRST38h, i've been in the dev program since n70014:40
timeless_mbpbedboi: a program that never existed?14:41
* timeless_mbp wonders how one measures time from 'undefined'14:41
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bedboii've just been quite silent since n810 due to work :(14:41
timeless_mbp(the first product was the "Nokia 770", not the n700, and not the n770)14:41
RST38hbedboi: Do you have any applications to show ?14:41
bedboitimeless_mbp, quite pointless :)14:41
TomaszDok, so I have the flasher saying Suitable USB device not found, waiting14:42
TomaszDwhich is expected14:42
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TomaszDnow what do I do?14:42
RST38hI.e. if you have been in the developer program since 770, you should have developed something?14:42
bedboii did it :)14:42
RST38hyou did what?14:42
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bedboigpe-sudoku is something i wrote some time ago14:43
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bedboiit is quite stalled due to lack of time and feedback from users14:43
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* timeless_mbp frowns14:44
timeless_mbpso um... about these stupid config_list files14:45
RST38hOh shit, I managed to vote QGil's announcement BOTH up and down14:45
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mikhastime to get rid of your fake accounts, eh?14:45
timeless_mbpRST38h: heh14:46
andre__RST38h, split personality? ;-)14:46
timeless_mbpjeremiah / andre__ so about this stupid cdbs format14:47
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RST38handre: Whatever it is, it happens in Midgard14:50
timeless_mbpthe fact that i have a .tar.gz as the only source thing mostly sucks14:50
timeless_mbpthe question is should those files end up in grep/grep-2.5.1/ or in grep/14:50
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andre__RST38h, also happened to me a few times in the package voting interface14:51
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jeremiah2Should the device constantly be rebooting during flashing?14:52
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alterego1850 tests, 1343378 assertions, 0 failures, 1 errors14:56
mikkov__Did anybody with pre-summit device get the firmware downloaded from tablets-dev?14:57
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alteregoHeh, running an emulator inside another emulator.14:59
mikkov__tablets-dev doesn't accept my IMEI14:59
alteregoI guess if I installed the SNES emulator there'd be a three emulator deep envrionment.14:59
kalikianajeremiah2, it shouldn't. you should see a progress bar on the device, and a lot of text in the console.15:01
jeremiah2kalikiana: Thanks.15:01
jeremiah2That is not what I am seeing.15:01
jeremiah2I wonder if I'm doin' it right.15:02
JaffaBah, I can't get flasher-3.5.exe to work.15:02
JaffaWill have to wait until I get home15:02
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jeremiah2Eeeew - you use Windows? =]15:02
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mikkov__Jaffa: did tablets-dev accept your IMEI code from pre-summit device?15:03
Jaffajeremiah2: At work. I've got it dual-booting to Ubuntu, but Evolution is too much of a pain with Exchange15:03
Jaffamikkov__: It did.15:03
* Jaffa 's is a pre-Nokia World device and it worked fine.15:04
LynoureWhat's  tablets-dev?15:04
mikkov__hmm, I'll try again15:04
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Lynoureor, url, rather...15:04
Lynoureah, lastlog <315:04
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* mikkov__ forgot to remove slashes15:05
Jaffajeremiah2: Actually, there's an Ubuntu box <----- :)15:06
zaheermjeremiah2, i had that after flashing the emmc was over15:06
zaheermjeremiah2, a power cycle of the n900 fixed it15:07
jeremiah2zaheerm: I hope that worked for me too.15:07
jeremiah2What is a good way to check that I have hte updated firmware?15:07
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jeremiah2I'm being lazy now.15:07
timeless_mbpsettings>about product15:08
lardmanah, jeremiah2, perhaps just the man15:08
jeremiah2timeless_mbp: That is too damn easy15:08
lardmananyone know if there's a limit on the size of the source tarball the autobuilder will upload?15:08
timeless_mbpjeremiah2: if you're using my version, it's easier: settings>about :)15:08
timeless_mbp(are you using my version)15:08
timeless_mbpso um...15:08
lardmanI tried to upload a set of files for pocketsphinx and it kept choking, saying tar was having a problem15:08
jeremiah2oh, I'm at 41-1015:08
jeremiah2lardman: Bad tar15:09
jeremiah2timeless_mbp: Think so.15:09
timeless_mbpif it said About, you have my strings :)15:09
jeremiah2lardman: which distro? diablo or fremantle?15:09
jeremiah2timeless_mbp: I saw maemo-chavo in the SDK too15:09
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timeless_mbpjeremiah2: yeah, i can't read diffs very well15:10
timeless_mbpit wasn't a removal, it was an add15:10
jeremiah2who can15:10
timeless_mbpthe newer rev has more copies15:10
zaheermmine says 42-11]15:10
lardmanjeremiah2: fremantle15:10
jeremiah2lardman: Hmmm. That is a newish problem.15:10
timeless_mbpandre__: you're going to love me, i think15:10
lardmanwell the tar.gz is ~22Mb15:10
timeless_mbpi have a bug to file about 'tar'15:10
jeremiah222 megs zipped eh?15:11
lardmanadd to that the .diff and .dsc15:11
jeremiah2what are you uploading? Windows 7?15:11
lardmanit's a beast, all the voice stuff I guess15:11
lardmannah, pocketsphinx15:11
jeremiah2Not a very accurate name.15:11
lardmanI thought we should all have voices15:11
jeremiah2Perhaps 'whole pants sphinx'?15:11
lardmanjeremiah2: wasn't me who wrote it ;)15:11
jeremiah2lardman: I will take a look, perhaps you can post it publically and I can try?15:12
lardmanI think the whole pants/other-underwear sphinx is probably even bigger15:12
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jeremiah2If that fails, I can push it into fremantle by hand15:12
jeremiah2with extreme prejudice15:12
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lardmanjeremiah2: sure, can't just now though, will do so this evening if that's ok?15:12
andre__timeless_mbp, for?15:12
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jeremiah2lardman: Evening sounds great :)15:12
timeless_mbpman tar :)15:12
lardmanit needs optification still, so no major rush15:12
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jeremiah|afklardman: Cool, we'll talk this evening!15:13
lardmansounds good, cheers15:13
timeless_mbp... This  man page was first taken from Debian Linux and has since been loving updated here.15:13
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infobottimeless_mbp meant: ... This  man page was first taken from Debian Linux and has since been lovingly updated here.15:13
timeless_mbpthat's the whole bug, one s/// :)15:13
lardmanso is the new sw better than the last?15:13
lardmanI saw all my bugs coming back to me with the version number changed ;)15:13
* timeless_mbp can't figure out where here is15:13
timeless_mbpREPORTING BUGS15:14
timeless_mbp       Please report bugs via https://bugzilla.redhat.com15:14
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benno2hi, I have an N810 with RX-44_DIABLO_5.2008.43-7_PR_MR0. I tried to install sliderotate:  by typing it in the browser (it worked with older OS2008 versions) but now I just see the contents of the file. any idea ?15:15
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zaheermdneary, hi15:15
timeless_mbpbenno2: save it and then open it from file manager15:15
* lardman wonders if he should file a bug about HFP not working fully in a BMW 730d15:16
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dnearyHi zaheer15:16
lardmanhi dneary15:16
benno2timeless_mbp, thanks. trying now15:16
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dnearyhi lardman15:16
zaheermlardman, a bug has been filed about volkwagen/audio group hfp15:16
zaheermlardman, it may be same bug15:16
dnearyHave you ever experimented with any of the dbus API documenting tools?15:16
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lardmanzaheerm: do you have the bug#?15:16
dneary(or are docs not really your thing? ;))15:16
zaheermlardman, getting it15:16
timeless_mbpthat means the server is broken15:16
lardmanzaheerm: thanks15:17
dnearyThe great thing about people who hate writing docs is that they don't care that much that the docs are bad, as long as they have access to source code15:17
lardmantimeless_mbp: some things work, like dialling a random number, but phone book doesn't15:17
zaheermlardman, #595315:18
povbotBug 5953: no media sounds routed when connected to bluetooth headset in car (only works for phone calls)15:18
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thpdoes anyone know how to flash the final firmware release on a N900 HW rev. 2001?15:18
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TomaszDthp, I'm working on this right now15:19
lardmanhow do you know the hw rev?15:19
zaheermthp, ?15:19
lardmanor rather where is that from?15:19
TomaszDit won't work from there15:19
TomaszDneeds a legacy image15:19
TomaszDI have the same HWID15:19
zaheermmust be a prototype device...15:20
dnearythp, You'll be in Barcelona, I hear?15:22
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thpdneary: yes, you too?15:22
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dnearyLooking that way15:23
KhertanHello everyone !15:23
dnearywe'll be having a docs workshop there too15:23
lardmanhi Khertan15:23
Khertanhi lardman15:23
dnearyIt'd be great if you could stop by - I've heard good things about your efforts to improve developer docs15:23
lardmanKhertan: I was reading on the forum that some people think you've given up on your python todo/etc. apps15:23
thphehe ;) yes, will do. is it on all three days?15:24
Khertan"think you've given up on your python todo/etc. apps"15:24
Khertanwhat you mean ?15:24
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lardmanwell I am looking for a todo app, and was browing the threads, and some chap was saying that as you've not replied to him you've given up15:24
lardmanI'll have to see who it was and which thread15:25
Khertanoh ... really ?15:25
Khertanto be honest i didn't see anymail15:26
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Khertanbut i didn't really read since 5 or 6 months15:27
lardmanKhertan: I don't blame you, quite low SNR now15:27
Khertanas it s always full of troll and people complaining15:27
lardmanhi ssvb15:27
Khertanlardman: yes i know15:27
KhertanSNR ?15:28
ssvbhi lardman15:28
bleaderSignal to Noise Ratio I guess15:28
lardmanyeah, sorry15:28
Khertanah oki :)15:29
bleaderHi by the way, new here :)15:30
* ccooke tries out the release firmware on MfE sync with google15:30
lardmanKhertan: no idea where that thread was, don't worry, but will ping you if I ever find it again15:30
Khertanlardman: yep thanx :)15:30
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* lardman wonders if MaemoPad+ is available for Fremantle?15:31
* AndrewFBlack hates reading t.m.o anymore15:32
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* Khertan same15:33
* RST38h yawns then moos15:33
StskeepsAndrewFBlack: yeah,, hopefully it will be better soon15:33
AndrewFBlack14 pages of posts and I only found 2 worth reading15:33
mgedminAndrewFBlack, urls to those two?15:34
lcukt.m.o is just like any forum, it is what you make it and is upto us to improve it15:34
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* mgedmin want somebody else to read t.m.o and provide concise summaries15:34
Lynouremgedmin: if you'd pay for it...15:34
AndrewFBlackmgedmin, couldn't find them again if i wanted to\15:34
Jaffa mgedmin: Let me forward you an email...15:34
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mgedminLynoure, in karma points only ;)15:34
mgedminyeah, I imagine it would be a thankless job15:35
Jaffamgedmin: You have mail.15:35
AndrewFBlacklcuk, its hard for us to control people making stupid posts (god I'm starting to sound like GeneralAntilles  lol)15:35
mgedmin"Hopefully this shouldn't be too much work" ha ha haaa haa haaa15:36
Jaffamgedmin: Well, people who read tmo already ;-)15:36
Jaffamgedmin: Whereas some people read IRC15:36
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lcukof course, but the topics havent exactly been managed that well.  if theres no1 leading with interesting stuff and having good discussions then it will cycle round15:36
MyrttiIRC isn't any better15:36
Myrttijust less used15:37
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* lcuk puts head back in laptop anyway15:37
andre__mgedmin, ask Nokia to create a community position called "Talkmaster"? :-P15:37
Stskeepsisnt that reggie? :P15:38
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andre__i think reggie has lotsa other stuff to do :-P15:38
lardmanandre__: and equip him with a shotgun?15:38
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andre__no, i prefer a slow death.15:39
lardmanaim for the gut?15:39
timeless_mbptwo golden spons!15:39
infobottimeless_mbp meant: two golden spoonss!15:39
* timeless_mbp gives up15:39
Lynourethere is no golden spoon.15:40
lardman~curse the lack of a heirachical todo app15:40
infobotMay the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, the lack of a heirachical todo app !15:40
Khertana question ... why does there is 3 different firmware for the n900 ?15:41
lcuk* write heirachical todo app15:41
lcuk* * make backend15:41
lcuk* * make ui15:41
lcuk* * * drink wine15:41
lcuk* * test15:41
KhertanMaemo 5 USA variant for Nokia N900 <-> Maemo 5 Middle East and North Africa  <-> Maemo 5 Global release for Nokia N90015:41
mgedminwhere _is_ the firmware for the n900?15:41
Khertanlcuk: hum ... i ve the same ... but with finish pygtkeditor before :)15:42
lardmanlcuk: yeah, but I need one that can have multiple upstream dependencies, and prefereably on that will re-arange the whole tree once a task is done15:42
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lardmanKhertan: perhaps the map stuff on the eMMC>15:42
lardmanKhertan: does mtodo do heirarchies the ?15:43
Khertanlardman: nope :)15:43
* lardman wonders about the spelling of that one15:43
Khertanwith s :)15:43
KhertanmTodos :)15:43
Khertanbecause there is always many todo to do15:43
lardmanhmm, will have to add "write heirachical ToDo" app as a root dep to all the other work then15:43
* timeless_mbp ponders15:43
Khertanlardman: nope ... before : write the source code editor to write the todo apps15:44
tbfthere are no packages in that file15:44
tbfcompare with
suihkulokkijjo: ^15:44
Khertanit s seems that extras devel has been cleaned :)15:45
timeless_mbpprobably a good thing15:45
lardmanhmm, to rebuild against the new SDK?15:45
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tbfKhertan: more seems like a build bot problem. dunno.15:46
jjoI've got nothing to do with extras15:46
Stskeepsout of space?15:47
jjoI did break the sdk repos for a while though ;)15:47
lardmanprobably my attempt to upload pocketsphinx build files ;)15:47
suihkulokkijjo: ok. I just know you asked about Release files and soon after someone complained that they broke ;)15:48
LynoureFlashing again probably wipes all my data again?15:48
LynoureOr has it been done better now?15:49
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Khertanor a bug in the update by the bot15:49
tbfandre__: do you know if some maintenance work was scheduled for extras-devel?15:49
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Khertantbf: ouch ... "boss comming in the room lag" :)15:50
suihkulokkiLynoure: now maemo has "seameless sofware updates" aka apt-get15:50
andre__tbf, according to I assume that jeremiah was looking into it15:50
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mgedminKhertan, thanks!15:50
suihkulokkiLynoure: but you can still flash, and when flashing settings are lost unless backuped first15:50
* mgedmin is a bit surprised not to see that link in the /topic15:50
tbfandre__: what kind of channel is qaiku again?15:51
*** mgedmin changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo | | | Maemo Community Council | | | Maemo-Barcelona Long Weekend - Registrations open - | FIRMWARE IS HERE AT LAST!"15:51
ShapeshifterHas any n900 owner in here tried a cover? Like something like this
*** Disconnected has joined #maemo15:51
Disconnected[Join] 3 Kuru$Luk Ýnsana 5 Kuru$Luk Deqer VerirSen KaLan 2 Kuru$ada Seni Satar.!15:51
Disconnected[Part] kimSe kendini pahaLýdan Satmasýn herkezin indirim günLerini biLiyorum..!!15:51
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tbfandre__: - that's posted three days ago15:51
KhertanShapeshifter: cover is useless i always use it :)15:51
ShapeshifterKhertan: yeah but that's a cover that is always on15:52
Khertanfrom the previous firmware the battery consomption have been greatly improve15:52
Khertani ll check with the final one :)15:52
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Jaffa"To flash the bootloader, you have to supply the X-Loader image"15:52
kirmawhat's the point of such a cover? does it provide real protection if the device is dropped to hard (concrete) floor?15:53
kirmaseems so much a iphoneism to me.15:53
TomaszDJaffa, which HW revision do you have?15:53
kirmamaybe they could sell it pink with encrusted "jewels" :)15:53
ccookeKhertan: you've noticed battery improvements already?15:54
ccookeKhertan: when did you flash?15:54
JaffaTomaszD: Pre-summit15:54
Khertanccooke: one weeks ago15:55
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kirmathe question about protection provided by such a cover wasn't rhetorical, I really wonder about it. how much more than just minor scratch protection such a thing does give?15:56
ccookeKhertan: to 42-11?15:56
Khertannope it was an older one from the week 4215:57
TomaszDkirma, it's designed this way so that when you drop your N900 it doesn't actually break, but just fall into three pieces you can put together again15:58
Khertanflashing in progress :)15:58
tbfjeremiah: any idea what happend to the Release file of extras-devel?15:59
kirmaI've failed to break a single phone until now, but also I guess E90 might be surprisingly ruggerized (it has cracks after dozen drops to asphalt, but works fine...)15:59
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Khertankirma: my 3210 resist to a drop at 160Km on a bike16:00
Khertanbut i ll not try with my n90016:01
pupnik_i can oicture that16:01
kirmawondered about those kelvin-meters16:01
lcuki was wondering more how he cycled up a 160kilometer hill16:01
andre__tbf, yeah. so? :-)16:01
andre__tbf, jeremiah should know16:02
Khertanhum ... 100miles by hour :)16:02
kirmabut still... I sort of find the idea of phone requiring a specific shell to survive ordinary life is odd16:02
kirmaeither it's like a doll to you or it's badly designed (iphone comes to mind on both cases;)16:02
timeless_mbpKhertan: getting a bike up to 160Km above the earth would be a neat trick16:02
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Khertantimeless_mbp: clearly ;)16:03
* timeless_mbp frowns16:03
alteregoYou know hte XmaemoX tag to add to package versions, what's the first X represent?16:03
pupnik_if any of us does it, Khertan will16:03
Khertankirma: you mean like the iphone require a portable climatization ?16:03
timeless_mbpI think the first X is actually from the preceding thing's versioning :)16:03
alteregoYeah, that's what I thought16:04
Stskeepsalterego: a way to be replaced if upstream gets put in16:04
Khertanyouhou ... let s see what s new in the new firmware16:04
kirmaor even like a baby - you dedicate your life to your device so it can stay unscratched and well kept ;)16:04
kirmaN900 cover might be interesting to try if it's cheap enough, though. anyway, accidents happen, phones are replaceable (at least if backups are good) - real babies are not. better concentrate on those things that really can't be replaced. :)16:06
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* mgedmin already managed to scratch his N900 screen16:08
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kirmascreen protector is something I do care to get... likelihood of getting a scratch there, and annoyance caused by one are considerable.16:09
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kirmaI believe a phone shell would otherwise just protect from aesthetic scratches... don't really believe it improves the rigidity on truly brutal drops.16:11
zaheermweird i no longer get my telepathy availability and status in status area16:11
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RST38hGooglebot continues "voting" for Maemo5 apps =(16:12
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RST38hJust got another 7 hits16:12
kirmathose should be really POST form buttons16:13
alteregohyperlinks should never change state :P16:14
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kirmaremember the horror stories of having a web site management tools based on links and robots coming around and deleting the whole web site...16:14
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Stskeepslo qwerty1216:17
qwerty12Hiya, Stskeeps16:17
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Shapeshifterkirma: well I'm not sure how much protection _that_ cover would give, that's why I was asking earlier, but I'm using a cover for my 160gb iPod and I've been using it for two years already and it doesn't have a single scratch. It looks like brand new out of the box.16:19
SpeedEvilyeah - well - looks like16:19
SpeedEvilIt does little for major knocks.16:19
SpeedEvilIt will of course protect the paint.16:19
SpeedEvilDo you care about that though16:19
ShapeshifterSpeedEvil: i think most devices/phones wouldn't break if dropped when protected by a case. The shock/G-forces itself is usually not the problem but the fact that the casing of the device falls apart16:20
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SpeedEvilI tend to lose most devices by sitting on them.16:21
Shapeshifterif you drop the display on a pointy stone that might be different16:21
ShapeshifterSpeedEvil: >.> ouch.16:21
timeless_mbpat 600EUR, i recommend not losing your items that way16:21
SpeedEvilThat'swhyu if my n900 arrives - I'm purchasing accidental damage cover.16:21
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derfI like the "if".16:22
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SpeedEvilderf: I did the stupid discount coupon route.16:22
SpeedEvilSo I'm paying half priceish.16:22
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* timeless_mbp frowns16:22
SpeedEvilhence I'm not 100% sure it will in fact arrive.16:22
SpeedEvilAnd not be cancelled.16:22
ccookeThat's odd.16:23
RST38hNo sign from DDP yet?16:23
eeanI'm trying to run the flash-3.5 on the n900, it keeps saying "Unable to enumerate USB devices!" when I turn the n900 on.16:23
ccookeI must have misread something: I recall qgil saying in the forum that maemo extras was being shipped enabled... but it's not enabled on this firmware image16:23
timeless_mbpeean: um16:23
timeless_mbpare you running the flasher from the XTerminal in the device?16:24
mgedminRST38h, I haven't received any indications that the DDP knows I still exist16:24
eeantimeless_mbp: heh no :)16:24
timeless_mbpbecause the flasher is to be run from your desktop computer...16:24
eeanI know16:24
ccookeeean: I've seen that on a couple of things16:24
RST38hmgedmin: have you ordered?16:24
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timeless_mbpeean: are you su?16:24
mgedminRST38h, yep, last week16:24
eeantimeless_mbp: I said it happens when the device turns on... so it wouldn't work if I was running it on the device. yep I have sudo16:24
ccookeeean: most recently an ubuntu laptop running karmic, but that was a month or more before karmic was released16:24
eeanrunning opensuse 11.1 here16:24
RST38hmgedmin: Well, they at least know of your bank account or credit card16:25
ccookeeean: kernel?16:25
mgedminthey have reserved 251 EUR (from Nokia Italy for some reason)16:25
mgedminmaybe because lt looks like it16:25
eeanLinux wasabi #1 SMP PREEMPT 2009-10-26 15:49:03 +0100 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux16:25
RST38hThey did it from Nokia UK in London for me16:25
timeless_mbpeean: sorry, your sentence has so many failures that i couldn't recover properly16:25
RST38hmgedmin: You may be getting the IT version ;)16:25
Khertanmgedmin: i ve see nothing16:25
mgedminI'm afraid of that, actually16:25
Khertanmgedmin: in my bank account16:26
mgedminKhertan, have you ordered?16:26
ccooke(Hmm. *this* karmic laptop just worked on my n900.)16:26
mgedminor, rather, when?16:26
eeantimeless_mbp: oh heh I see the ambigiousness now :)16:26
Khertanmgedmin: the ddp one yep16:26
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Khertanand i ve confirmation page for paiement ... but no confirmation email ... nothing in bank account ... i 'm just waiting16:27
eeanccooke: karmic probably runs 2.6.31 as well. I have some intrepid laptops in the house, I could just use one of those.16:27
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ccookeeean: karmic *does* run 2.6.31 (2.6.31-14-generic to be precise)16:28
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Lynourehmm, "Invalid FIASCO subimage id (00)"16:29
eeanI also have a windows laptop sitting next to me, but NSU doesn't seem to have the n900 unlike what the wiki says.16:29
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LynoureAnyone got this same error with the Global release?16:30
LynoureI think that's the version I should use, being a Finn.16:30
mgedminKhertan, I still haven't received the promised email that the DDP device is available ;)16:31
Khertanmgedmin: ah yep ... true16:31
Khertanmgedmin: maybe it s the reason for not getting a confirmation when buying it16:32
Khertanmgedmin: not really available16:32
mgedmincould be my spam filters... although I got the email that told me they will email me when the N900 is out16:32
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mgedminI'd be chewing nails and furniture if I didn't have the amsterdam loaner device16:33
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mgedmingoing there (out of my pocket) was the best decision ever16:33
zaheermmgedmin, same16:33
zaheermmgedmin, it was random for me too :)16:34
Khertanmgedmin: me too ... hopefully i got one at amsterdam too :)16:34
ccookeKhertan: you aren't sure?16:34
Khertanccooke: sure of what ?16:34
Stskeepsqwerty12: i'll get you a cookie if you figure out how to hack the dialog that pops up on usb connect16:35
ccookeKhertan: you said "hopefully i got one at amsterdam too"16:35
ccookeKhertan: and I am being mean and pointing out the ambiguity16:35
qwerty12Stskeeps: The dialog is contained in the USB status bar plugin; closed source16:36
* Stskeeps wonders if anyone made n900 send audio over pulseaudio to another host yet16:37
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mgedminStskeeps, I think somebody mentioned doing that here on this channel16:40
mgedminor maybe on planet.maemo.org16:40
tbfStskeeps: does "car radio" count as "another host"?16:40
mgedmintbf, only if you can ssh into your car radio16:41
tbfmgedmin: bah... but... but... in this context? ;-)16:41
Lynoureseems my RX-51_2009SE_1.2009.42-11_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin is also not 161787293 in size but 167796125, bizarre16:42
tbfStskeeps: do you have any actual issues, or do you just ask out of curiosity?16:43
mikhasas if the md5sums on that fw site existed for a reason ...16:43
Stskeepstbf: let's say i want to move music playing on my n900 to my media centre at home for instance16:43
Stskeepsor my media centre to my n90016:43
Lynoureis 161787293 really the right size?16:44
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tbfStskeeps: guess there the best approach is using uPnP16:44
tbfStskeeps: nokia's media player already supports the client role out of the box...16:45
tbfStskeeps: and to feed your media center you could install zeenix' rygel16:45
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* mgedmin does ls -l /mnt/mnt/.documents/User Guides/.en16:45
mikhasagain, check the md5: 24d60d2f091a4f77620f5cc689272153  RX-51_2009SE_1.2009.42-11_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin16:45
mgedmineeek, 128-bit GUIDs as filenames!16:46
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mgedminthis is interesting and unexpected: User_Guide_Lithuanian_index.html16:46
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qwerty12mgedmin, yeah, you must be their only Lithuanian user...16:47
mgedminof a n900, pretty definitely16:48
mgedminthere are a few n8x0s out here16:48
Lynouremikhas: wrong sum... but I cannot figure out whether it is wrong file on the site or something repeatedly going wrong when downloading it.16:48
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RST38hEVERYBODY HIDE: Engadget reviews N90016:49
qwerty12RST38h: "Our verdict: It's no iPhone."16:49
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kirmaprimary feature of a respectable phone is that it has capacitive touchscreen!16:50
RST38hqwerty: As a matter of fact, they are somewhat favorable16:50
kirmaand fruit logo.16:50
RST38hqwerty: They say the browser is the best on the market, iPhone included16:50
RST38hqwerty: They like the CPU. About the UI overal they politely says that it is the best Maemo UI ever.16:50
mikhasyeah, because you can install ad-block for it16:51
kirmasomehow, only one manufacturer seems to fulfill these stringent and rational requirements.16:51
* RST38h reread what he just wrote and counted typos16:51
qwerty12RST38h: s/favorable/favourable/16:51
RST38hqwerty: "they says", yea16:51
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* javispedro reads about something relating engadget, review and n90016:52
qwerty12RST38h: I kinda have mixed feelings about the browser, myself. The gestures and the interface is brilliant, but it's pretty slow at actually updating the screen when going back, for example16:52
RST38hqwerty: but at least I use "aluminium" and "nuclear" =)16:52
RST38hqwerty: Well, it still has to redraw, really16:52
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qwerty12RST38h: Yes, but even the N810 wasn't this slow at doing it :)16:53
mikhasLynoure, my image was downloaded correctly16:53
RST38hN810 was horribly slow16:53
waz1Stupid phone16:53
mgedminqwerty12, pressing backspace on the hw kbd makes it go back a bit faster16:53
RST38hIt just got stuck when scrolling :)16:53
RST38hmoo wazd16:53
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mgedminbut yeah, it usually redownloads instead of showing the cached image16:53
Lynouremikhas: might be some weird vm issue then... will try with a real computer.16:53
waz1Reheya all16:54
mgedminwhich is painful for ajaxy sites with "load more data" buttons16:54
RST38hmgedmin: not really, not inside the same page16:54
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RST38hmgedmin: between pages, yes, it does not cache a lot, for some reaosn16:54
mikhasI dont think it caches at all16:55
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RST38hAnyone tried about:config to change caching policies?16:55
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mikhasI think I could make an easy connection to data plans ...16:55
kirmathe browser should really maintain some sort of minimal "page engine" state even on preceding pages and just freeze activity on them, then show the cached image first and recover the state (including javascript) to give illusion of snappiness16:56
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kirmabut that'd require considerable amount of hacking the browser internals...16:56
RST38hOh, the browser vertical mode is enabled now!!!16:56
* RST38h salivates16:56
Stskeepsin your fw image?16:56
RST38hNo, wrong16:56
RST38hthat is ww4616:56
derfkirma: Not to mention considerable amounts of memory.16:56
kalikianait's a pity it hides the address in portrait mode16:57
mikhasmemory? your data connection is faster than your sd?16:57
kirmaderf: not necessarily, although quite probably so if those pages are something like moronbook16:57
javispedrobah. boring review16:57
javispedroi expected more gore16:57
mgedminthe official preferences let me specify the size of the memory cache; I think I set it to auto16:57
mgedminsometimes it does cache, but very very rarely16:57
RST38hNearly 80 percent of security products fail to perform as intended when first tested and generally require two or more cycles of testing before achieving certification, according to a new ICSA Labs report16:58
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derfRST38h: They get certified that fast?16:59
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RST38hguess so16:59
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RST38hI do not think they ever work though16:59
RST38hnever seen a working one16:59
derfYeah, I think that says more about the certification process than the products.16:59
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RST38hMoo VDVsx17:00
VDVsxhey RST38h :)17:00
RST38hderf: They certify snake oil by requirements specifically drafted to certify snake oil17:01
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RST38hderf: So, nothing surprising17:01
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derfWell, security is mostly a state of mind, anyway. So it seems appropriate to me.17:02
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kirmathere are security products that really do valuable stuff. but there are also attecks that are challenging to detect or prevent unless you have infinite product development resources and infinite amount of appliance computing power.17:03
kirmasome ICSA profiles include pretty tough challenges for the vendors...17:04
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suihkulokkitrouble is managers17:05
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suihkulokkitrouble is managers want black box in their network that makes the net safe17:06
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kirmaany kind of security product can be configured or used incompetently nullifying its security incentive...17:06
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wazdRe-reheya all17:07
kirmawell, almost any kind of device. but the ones that can't be misconfigured are really not the stuff that's usually installed...17:07
* Stskeeps passes wazd a cookie17:07
* wazd Nom-nom-noms17:09
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wazdAny shocking news today?)17:11
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RST38hwazd: 42.-11 firmware is officially out17:12
RST38hwazd: and there is a 45.xx screenshot showing portrait mode microb17:12
Stskeepsor someone who made a portrait browser17:12
Khertannot difficult :)17:12
wazdRST38h: photoshop rulles =)17:13
Stskeepsi mean, wazd could whip that up in photoshop in a matter of minutes..17:13
timeless_mbpandre__: bug 3675 doesn't make sense17:13
povbotBug backup will loop nearly infinitely for directories containing pairs of symlinks that do not point to descendants because backup is following them17:13
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Stskeepswazd: next up: fart app from iphone running on n900 ;)17:14
florianhi bedboi17:14
wazdStskeeps: meheheh)17:14
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RST38hwazd: Actually, I have seen it IRL, so it is not photoshop17:14
andre__timeless_mbp, feel free to comment on that report17:14
wazdStskeeps: who needs fart app when you have liqtorch! :D17:14
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Stskeepstorch the farts?17:15
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wazdStskeeps: eeew)17:15
RST38hliqfart + liqtorch17:15
* RST38h hides17:15
wazdRST38h: cool17:15
qwerty12Fire farts!17:16
StskeepsFarts-on-fire, not Frets-on-fire17:16
kirmaapplication of the fruit kind?17:16
* RST38h goes to to whine17:16
kirmadoes it have stereo sound effects?17:16
wazdFart over FM transmitor17:17
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kirmawith slightly higher transmission power... that would be amusingly useless app enough17:17
Stskeepswazd: connect to insecure bluetooth headsets..17:17
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qwerty12So, law-abiding citizens, who has used their N900 to prank people using the FM transmitter?17:17
kirmaI suppose the fm transmitter effective transmission power (under regulations) is on scale of picowatts, which allows only couple meters of transmission17:18
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wazdkirma: enough for a prank17:19
kirmasort of17:19
RST38hAaaaaannnnd.... The new XTerm bug #6209 !17:19
povbotBug XTerm does not immediately take focus17:19
kirmaone could take a web version of a radio and retransmit it "modified"17:20
StskeepsRST38h: i really wish i could disable address book search17:20
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timeless_mbpRST38h: surely that's a duplicate?17:20
timeless_mbpthere's no obvious bug for it17:21
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qwerty12Stskeeps: rm /usr/bin/osso-addressbook.launch17:22
Stskeepsqwerty12: nah, it is handy at times..17:22
RST38hSts: Addr Book is not to blame here17:23
RST38hSts: XTerm should immediately take focus, it does not for some reason17:23
RST38hAnnnd another one" bug #621017:24
povbotBug GPRS connection not restored after being interrupted17:24
StskeepsRST38h: desktop issue17:24
Stskeepsit happens in other apps too17:24
RST38hSts: oh =(17:24
Stskeepsit's while an app is launching, something is odd17:24
timeless_mbpRST38h: the issue is that desktop is cheating17:24
timeless_mbpit shows a picture of the app17:25
kirmaRST38h: is the GPRS part particularly different from other phones?17:25
timeless_mbpand then runs the app17:25
JaffaStskeeps is right. maemo-launcher doesn't capture keypresses.17:25
kirmaobvious problem testing that in helsinki area is that there are really not so many places where one could lose the connectivity long enough...17:26
Stskeepsbasically when launching an app, it shouldn't allow address book to pop up :P17:26
Stskeepsexcept maybe when typing 1 1 2 ..17:26
kirmametro tunnel isn't enough.17:26
wazd So, DDP is closed?17:26
lcukno Stskeeps you must wait for the console to popup, then type "phone type=emergency location=uk number=999"  why on earth would you need to search when its such a simple command line op :p17:27
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JaffaExtras-testing broken?17:32
andre__Jaffa, Fremantle? Diablo? Means what?17:32
timeless_mbpandre__: you want an alias entry for each failed report?17:33
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Jaffaandre__: There's only one extras-testing; and I'm not going to retype from HAM's error display if it's a known problem :-p17:34
timeless_mbpJaffa: there's a log17:34
timeless_mbpyou can saveas in the log view17:34
andre__timeless_mbp, obviously not.17:34
andre__but i don't want somebody mixing up my aliases.17:34
Jaffatimeless_mbp: Not sure it's showing the error17:34
timeless_mbpandre__: well clearly the first two are failures17:34
timeless_mbpJaffa: if it isn't, please file a bug :)17:35
andre__yes. but that's my business as long as it's punting.17:35
timeless_mbpandre__: alright, suit yourself17:35
* timeless_mbp ponders17:35
timeless_mbpso um...17:35
JaffaSeems to be better now17:35
timeless_mbpi have two directory trees which are nearly identical17:36
timeless_mbpbut not really17:36
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infobottimeless_mbp meant: but not entirely17:36
timeless_mbpmaybe i'll just cheat :)17:37
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timeless_mbpright... so how do i cheat? :)17:40
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ShadowJKkirma, cover phone with hands, put hands+phone between thighs, squeeze for 5 minutes17:41
kirmayou can't force developers to do that :)17:41
ShadowJKfwiw, on S60 the same thing results in every open app using GPRS closing/crashing17:41
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tbfjeremiah: any update on ? thank you.17:41
lbtkirma: force? I thought they loved it that much...17:42
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kirmaalthough it's probably not unfixable on linux side, I suspect considerable portion of the trouble extends to the radio firmware parts or even the network itself17:43
ccookeHm. With the release firmware, my n900 seems to pick up greasy fingerprints more. I hope they fix that in the next release17:43
kirmaespecially if one expects the connections to recover with any sort of grace :)17:43
* ccooke grins17:43
tbfStskeeps: already has a bug report about this instant contact search race condition17:43
kirmacooke :D17:43
tbfStskeeps: go search for it and vote ;-)17:43
kirmadoes the device also feel heavier?17:44
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ccookekirma: no, it's a little lighter. I guess they spent some time working on that.17:44
tbfStskeeps: hmm? that bug shall be fixed already?
povbotBug 5745: Typing in newly opened window brings up contact search17:45
ShadowJKkirma, well, even detecting that the connection is dead and dropping it and creating a new one would be nice17:45
Stskeepsandre__: re 5745 i think that code is in hildon-desktop17:45
Stskeepsand public17:45
Stskeeps(in gitorious)17:46
FlandryHere's a random, apples-to-oranges question: how does the OMAP chipset in the N900 compare with a PIII 900 in "umph"?17:46
Flandryapproximately clock-matched?17:46
ccookeFlandry: wouldn't it be better to compare to something with a similar clock speed?17:46
andre__Stskeeps, oops, you are totally right17:46
andre__Stskeeps, mind to comment and correct me? :)17:47
FlandryOk, vs PIII 400 then17:47
ccookeFlandry: a pIII 900 runs at approximately 900Mhz. The n900's standard high mark is 60017:47
kirmaShadowJK: yep... although more one thinks about the situation, less obvious it becomes how to do it. at least if there's no easy way to probe if the GPRS connection is alive, without causing data transmission...17:47
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lbtccooke: specmarks though ... what can you do in a cycle on x86 vs arm17:50
Andy80hi all17:50
Andy80VDVsx: is it possible to see the list of people registered to the MaeBar event?17:51
* lbt wondered about running a liblocation caching proxy on the device...17:51
ccookelbt: I also wondered about that17:51
Flandryeven a mips too mips would be useful17:51
VDVsxAndy80, atm no17:51
Flandryi guess i'll have to go look17:52
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VDVsxAndy80, need something or just curiosity ?17:52
ccookelbt: integer rate for a lot of things is directly linked to clock rate. I think devices that are designed to run mostly at low clock rates are more clock-speed dependant than desktop devices17:52
ccookenot entirely, but a little17:52
Andy80VDVsx: uhm... both :P just to check if two people I know have registered and curiosity to see how many people registered17:53
ccookebasically, if you're optimising for lowest instruction rate possible you'll often only be using one integer unit at a time, regardless of the number you have17:53
ccookeand at that point, the biggest effects are pipeline speed and Mhz.17:53
infobotccooke meant: and at that point, the biggest effects are pipeline depth and Mhz.17:54
lbtccooke: mmm but pipelining and 'equivalent MHz' crap creeps in...17:54
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kirmaflandry: Cortex-A8 does roughly 2.1 Dhrystone "MIPS" per megahertz if I remember right17:54
VDVsxAndy80, I can check if you want, send me the names in pvt17:54
kirmawhich is integer performance17:54
ccookelbt: yeah17:54
lbt^^ kirma's benchmark is the kind of thing that makes sense :)17:54
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RST38hccooke: independently of all that, once you go into memory, you are screwed though17:55
ccookelbt: comparing architecture to architecture is useless unless they're in basically the same device and running the same software. Anything else is a rough comparison only. As long as you know that, it all works out about right ;-)17:55
ccookelbt:/kirma: yes, quite.17:55
ccookeRST38h: naturally17:55
Flandryyeah i know it would be rough17:56
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ccookeRST38h: of course, where some CPUs have memory controllers built in...17:56
Flandrythat's why i asked :D17:56
kirmait just gives some sort of idea of the scale... basically two integer-oriented pipes are issuing each one instruction per cycle, and the instructions can sometimes pack a bit more than one "dhrystone-sense operation" in one instruction17:56
RST38hccooke: Does not matter, as long as you have got 166MHz top SDRAM clock17:56
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tbfStskeeps: btw, thank you for complaining about 574517:56
ccookeRST38h: it matters... a bit :-)17:57
ccookeenough to give an advantage17:57
RST38hccooke: of course, a lot of cache helps, but ARMs historically did not have that17:57
tbfStskeeps: you helped us to identify the cause for some regression in the PR1.1 image :-D17:57
kirmaI think the NEON vector engine has rate of one ALU op plus one assignment per clock cycle17:57
kirmabut it doesn't support double floats17:57
Flandry"rom what i read TI is claiming 1200 dhrystone MIPS for 600mhz which would place it alongside the PIII at 600mhz"17:57
kirmabut then again, it supports vector formats17:57
RST38hkirma: That is easy to check, there is a paper on all that stuff17:57
Stskeepstbf: ah, cool - rst started :P17:57
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kirmaunderstanding how the fixed pipeline scheduling on Cortex-A8 took quite a while for me to understand17:58
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kirmait's also described on some ARM document, although I really figured it all out from some of these core compact presentations17:59
RST38hkirma, lbt:
derfNobody who cares about performance uses doubles.17:59
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kirmathere are lots of devils on the details that affect real-world performance though18:00
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crashanddie_The battery on my N900 runs out after something like 6 hours18:01
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lardmancrashanddie_: less porn18:02
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crashanddie_lardman: you mean nokia discriminates against master18:02
Flandryso it seems that at least in integer operations, PIII and OMAP are roughly equivalent18:02
qwerty12crashanddie_: no, it's just you they hate18:02
RST38hFlandry: Not really18:02
Flandrythat's not consistent with though, which has P3 at about 35% more18:02
* RST38h shudders every time somebody makes this kind of comparison18:03
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RST38hARM and x86 architectures are so different that you cannot directly compare18:03
Flandryoh come on you pedantic prudes18:03
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lbtFlandry: they are comparable rather than an order of magnitude apart18:03
kirmapractically all non-Thumb ARM instructions can be conditional and ALU instructions can include complex barrel shifter features... which x86 does to some extent too18:03
lbthowever, specifics of performance need to be based on a specific 'real world' benchmark18:04
kirmaand of course the register pressure is smaller on ARM, but then again, modern x86s work around that a lot...18:04
Jaffacrashanddie_: Apparently the latest 42-11 image is "lots better"; but I'll remain to be convinced.18:04
Flandryi always liked ARM assembler better than x8618:05
kirmacache and memory subsystem characteristics and even compiler can affect the performance quite a bit18:05
lbtchances are a PIII and an ARM will be similar (ie within a factor of ~2)18:05
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* mgedmin sighs, reflashing is painful, now I need to make backups18:05
Flandrybut anyway i have intel benchmarks and want to make estimates for N900 perf, so that's close enough, thanks18:05
lardmanFlandry: what are you comparing against?18:06
lbtFlandry: now, comparing a multi-cpu Quad-core Xeon with SSDs to an N900... you'd notice some lag on the N90018:06
lardmanA desktop CPU?18:06
CShadowRunIsn't the N900 supposed to be out today?18:06
lbtCShadowRun: mine's out on my desk18:06
Flandrylooking at MAME bencmarks18:06
CShadowRunlbt in uk18:06
lbtFlandry: aha18:06
CShadowRunit still says preorder on the nokia site18:06
* lbt is in Reading18:06
CShadowRunyou have a prerelease model?18:07
* lbt grins18:07
* lbt takes a photo of a kiwi18:07
* CShadowRun stabs18:07
aquatixpoor kiwi18:08
kirmait's reasonably easy to calculate maximum amount of operations something like Cortex-A8 could perform on optimal conditions, and it's also bearable to do that on any x86 microarchitecture... but most of the time, those numbers don't matter18:08
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lbtCShadowRun: ^^18:10
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aquatixlbt: it's... blurry18:10
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CShadowRunThat kiwi is evil.18:10
aquatixlbt: you sure it isn't a photoshop job?18:10
Jaffacrashanddie_: Happy to meet up ahead of tomorrow for a beer, cos I'll finish work at 6ish and apart from removal of shirt and addition of T-shirt, footloose and fancy free18:10
lbtit's furry, not blurry18:10
aquatixi say it's both, but fair enough18:11
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CShadowRunI'm still pondering if i should get mine on contract or not xD18:11
lardmanwhere are you beering Jaffa?18:11
CShadowRunI probably won't use that much internet or phone lol18:11
* lbt is on Asda PAYG18:11
CShadowRunlbt what's the deal on that?18:11
lbtuse wifi when possible and GPRS on the train18:11
lbtcheap calls18:12
CShadowRunyea, that's mad18:12
CShadowRunI really want something like 2GB a month18:12
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lbtsure - if you can't get wifi then you need that18:12
* aquatix is happy with his flat-fee mobile internet18:12
aquatixnot sure what the max is on that though18:12
* CoreFusion- as well18:12
CShadowRunyea, i will have wifi most of the time18:12
CShadowRunbut when i don't have wifi it needs to be my "main" connection18:12
lbtthere's a wiki page on the various tariffs18:13
CoreFusion-i have 384kbit/s at 9.8euros/month18:13
* aquatix 768kbit/s for 7EUR/month18:13
* aquatix happy camper18:13
CoreFusion-but currently my connection is working at 2mbit/s P18:14
aquatixgenerally only use gprs though18:14
aquatixCoreFusion-: you h4xx0r ;)18:14
CoreFusion-aquatix: hehe, i don't know why it is doing that, but i don't mind :D18:14
CShadowRunlbt yea, problem is they all do something lame18:14
CShadowRunfiltering certain types of traffic, costing too much, or having ridiculously low limits18:14
lbt*nod*18:14 ... of course18:14
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* mgedmin got 512 Mbit/s for 6.5 EUR/month18:15
lbtI agree - hence not using any of them :)18:15
CShadowRunI wouldn't mind PAYG but not at 20p/mb18:15
CShadowRunThat's like 20p for loading one webpae18:15
aquatixmgedmin: lol, i was baffled for a moment there :)18:15
* Khertan got 20Ko/s for 26 Euros by month18:15
lbtit depends...18:15
mgedminnote to self: infobot can't handle actions18:15
Ceron^  fuking heell!18:15
lbtI really don't use it in many places I can't get wifi18:15
aquatixKhertan: ? :/18:16
CShadowRun£5/gb or something would be reasonable lol18:16
mgedminalso, s/6/8/18:16
CoreFusion-lbt: about that list, i have the Saunalahti Mobiililaajakaista, but it says on wiki that all p2p traffic is forbidden, i haven't noticed anything like that :D18:17
Khertanaquatix: yep sfr ... (elle s est pas faire)18:17
mgedminand s/.5/.7/18:17
aquatixKhertan: sounds painful18:17
Khertanaquatix: yep18:17
lbtCoreFusion-: so did you update it?18:17
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Khertanaquatix: sometime i got 2Mb/s ... but ... most of the time only 20ko/s18:17
* lbt slaps CoreFusion- with a wiki-fish18:18
CShadowRunlbt i remember liking the sound of the t-mobile ones, they give you a small amount of bandwith and if you go over they throttle you right?18:18
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* aquatix actually gets the 768Kbit/s when he tries18:18
CoreFusion-lbt: no, jsut wondering that the source is?18:18
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aquatixbut reception at work is not ideal18:18
lbtCoreFusion-: helpful community member :)18:18
aquatixhowever, i've internet there anyway ;)18:18
lbtCShadowRun: I think t-mobile coverage is an issue for me18:18
AndrewFBlackI noticed some people talking about a firmware update on n900 does it require you ot flash your phone or is it in app manager18:19
CShadowRunah :(18:19
lbtno phone/3g at home :(18:19
crashanddie_Jaffa: unless anyone can come up with something I could talk about, I have no clue what to say18:19
aquatixlbt: none at all? ick18:19
CoreFusion-what does FUP mean at the data limit section?18:20
lbtaquatix: too weak18:20
* aquatix has his cellphone as primary phone18:20
aquatixit'd better work at home :)18:20
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CShadowRunlbt t-mobile coverage looks pretty good in kent18:20
CShadowRun(which is really the only place i'm gonna be)18:21
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mgedminexcept that SSU doesn't apply here: the devices we got in Amsterdam don't support SSU since "there are changes required at lower levels of the software stack" (paraphrasing)18:22
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CShadowRunVery good 3g, excellent 2g in my street apparently18:22
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CoreFusion-lbt: i found the reason for that p2p forbidden stuff in wiki... it actually says so in the operators website :D haha, but it's not blocked, just forbidden18:23
AndrewFBlackI didn't get mine from Amsterdam but i would assume mine is the same I'm not sure18:23
aquatixmgedmin: SSU?18:23
mgedminseamless software update18:23
aquatixah right18:23
mgedmin actually18:23
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lbtCoreFusion-:  worth an update then ;)18:27
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CoreFusion-lbt: maybe not... i just hope that they don't make me pay extra for this month as i dl 3gb yesterday alone... :/18:28
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* lbt would cut you off if he ran a mobile data service provider ;)18:30
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Ceron^ <- typical maemo user18:31
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CoreFusion-i only dl'd the vmware workstation trial and the maemo sdk virtual image18:32
CoreFusion-and then the new top gear episode :P18:32
* Jaffa watched that live after Doctor Who :)18:33
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Andy80anyone knows when the Maemo Summit videos will be available?18:33
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* lardman feels happy at removing 150 emails from his inbox18:34
* qwerty12 curses lardman for adding one to his inbox18:35
CoreFusion-hmm.. anyone uses spotify?18:37
aquatixthere's an app for that18:37
* aquatix runs18:37
JaffaCoreFusion-: Once a week or so18:37
CoreFusion-can you send me an invite? :D18:37
JaffaI dunno, can I?18:38
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JaffaCoreFusion-: "I have 0 invitations"18:38
CoreFusion-I don't know :P18:38
LoCusFdoes anyone know if there is a video with the alarm clock on N900 :) ?18:38
Andy80CoreFusion-: it's free... but depend where are you from... for example I can use here in Spain but  cannot when I come back to Italy :)18:39
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CoreFusion-when i got to it says that i have to pay or use an invite18:40
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CoreFusion-Spotify Free18:40
CoreFusion-Requires an invite18:40
Andy80CoreFusion-: where are you from?18:40
Andy80it depends where you connect from18:40
Andy80ok... then it's not available in your country18:41
mgedmindoes reflashing wipe /home?18:41
mikhasnot here18:41
mgedminI extracted the eMMC fiasco image and it seems it only has a single vfat image of the /home/MyDocs partition18:41
qwerty12mgedmin: Only if you flash the eMMC18:41
mgedminqwerty12, ^18:41
mgedminah, okay, interesting18:42
mikhasbut I wouldnt not rely on that =)18:42
Andy80mgedmin: it contains only maps18:42
lbtAndy80: no, I'm pretty disappointed about the summit videos...18:43
lbtsomeone volunteered to edit them but I'd rather see naff raw video than nothing18:43
lbtupload the things somewhere, put som instructions on the wiki and let the community edit them18:44
mikhasoh that could be fun18:45
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mikhas"funniest edit wins"18:45
lbtsure the 'professional' guys screwed up - but come on...18:45
Andy80lbt: it's not so easy... it's Gb and Gb of files :P18:45
lardmanlast time I flashed the emmc it didn't wipe the card, all my mp3s, etc were left there18:45
lbtAndy80: p2p ?18:45
* lbt has Tb and Tb18:45
*** jayabharath has joined #maemo18:46 BitTorrent Tracker18:46
lbtyep - it is exactly what p2p is good at...18:46
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lbtand when we're done it'll be a few Mb18:46
Andy80you have to upload them somewhere, to make them available via torrent...18:46
lbtno you don't18:46
lbtyou have to seed them but that's all18:47
lbtsure it'd take a day or several....18:47
lbtbut we'll be having the next summit at this rate...18:47
* lbt stops ranting now :D18:48
Andy80lbt: please propose this solution to maemo18:48
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Andy80maemo-community mailing list18:48
Andy80and let's see :)18:48
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waz2oh, engadget has reviewed n900. Uber-bias included?)19:03
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KMFDMi would love to help try out apps in extra-testing. if the repo ever successfully loaded19:27
andre__loaded where?19:28
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CutMeOwnThroatonto the truck19:28
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andre__where do you want to bring it?19:29
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JaffaKMFDM: "Unable to load .../repository" error? It went away for me the next time I said "Refresh"19:31
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KMFDMJaffa, i've had that for 2 weeks19:34
KMFDMi've refreshed about 16 times19:34
KMFDMin those 2 weeks19:34
KMFDMi'll be upgrading my firmware sometime this week. I'm hoping that will somehow fix it19:34
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StskeepsKMFDM: i have experienced that when my router was corrupting my DNS requests19:36
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lardmanKhertan: ping19:54
wazdEngadget is so engadget19:55
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greenflywazd: review seemed pretty positive to me19:56
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dmj726Engadget seemed pretty schizophrenic to me.20:02
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RST38hwazd: "such an..." =)20:04
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waz2I bought HD2 hate me gagaga20:07
RST38hShow us the proofpic! =)20:07
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waz2RST38h: damn)20:08
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waz2RST38h: but everything can happen :P20:09
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RST38hyea, although some things are just less probable than others20:10
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waz2RST38h: if hd2 will cost less than n900 - why not?)20:11
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Khertan_n900Hi ! again20:13
RST38hwazd: It will not afaik20:13
Khertan_n900i ve a memory hole ... does there is a way to clone a gtk object in python ?20:14
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Khertan_n900ps : it s amazing to see how battery was improve with the last firmware20:15
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RST38hCould somebody remind me where N900 IMEI is?20:17
waz3RST38h: even if it will cost the same - I'll consider it) Back to20:17
RST38hIt has got a bigger screen, indeed20:17
RST38hBut WinMo is a complete disaster20:17
waz3Back to consumer world :D20:17
RST38hEven in the consumer world, WinMo is horror20:18
Khertan_n900rst38h : parameters -> product info20:18
lardmanKhertan_n900: what's the difference between mtasks and mtodos?20:18
waz3I think android will be available soon20:18
RST38hKhertan: thanks =)20:18
Khertan_n900lardman haha :)20:18
waz3XDA power :)20:18
Khertan_n900lardman : mtasks is a task manager based on priority20:18
Khertan_n900of task20:18
lardmanI'm just looking for some code to bastardise and make into a hierarchical system20:19
Khertan_n900and mtodos on the due dates with an other organization with quick access20:19
Khertan_n900of todo now and todo later20:19
lardmanmtasks has dates too though it looks like?20:19
Khertan_n900lardman : do not based your code on mtasks nor mtodos20:20
Khertan_n900it use a specifics database to store info20:20
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Khertan_n900it s really the wrong way to do it20:20
Khertan_n900yep sqlite20:20
lardmanoh, right, why is that?20:20
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Khertan_n900i ve done a small framework to store taks,events and memo in a vcalendar db file20:21
Khertan_n900it s better20:21
Khertan_n900and i ll base next mtodo release on it20:21
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RST38hFolks, should I download GLOBAL or USA? What is the difference?20:21
lardmanKhertan: hmm ok, not sure how well my plan would fit in vCal, but who knows20:22
lardmanKhertan: I guess custom fields are allowed20:22
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lardmanwhen do you plan to release?20:23
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Khertan_n900maybe for hierarchical tasks/todos it ll be not the best way to use vcal format20:23
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Khertan_n900lardman don t know20:23
Khertan_n900maybe i can give you the current code20:24
lardmanI am wondering how to handle leaf nodes which are attached to more than one tree20:24
* RST38h will got for the GLOBAL release, fuck it all...20:24
* lardman considers using the tree part of GtkTreeView for this20:24
lardmanRST38h: GLOBAL has the real Paris in it ;)20:25
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RST38hlardman: But no Podunk, CT?20:27
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lardmanwell that too I guess ;)20:27
qwerty12RST38h: I'd say that's a feature, looking at the name...20:27
* lardman guesses CT is Conneticutt (or however it's spelled)20:27
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lardmanright, bbl, supper and cooking and washing up and reboot beckons20:28
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Khertan_n900_sorry connection drops20:29
* RST38h idly adding Cancel option to accelerometer calibrator20:29
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Khertan_n900_mine is block on left left left left20:30
Khertan_n900_where is the acceleroeters calibrator ?20:30
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Khertan_n900_and left20:30
RST38hKhertan: Download any of my stuff from -Devel20:30
Khertan_n900_and sometime left20:30
Khertan_n900_:) oki20:30
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RST38hKhertan: And, BTW, can I ask you to vote for MG in -Testing, if you have got an N900 to test it? =)20:31
Khertan_n900_an rst38h package ?20:31
* RST38h needs two more votes20:31
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Khertan_n900_MG ?20:31
RST38hKhertan: In -devel, look for these: VGBA,VGB,iNES,MG,Speccy,fMSX,ColEm20:31
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Khertan_n900_ah ok20:32
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RST38hactually, you can test the -devel version and vote for -testing one, they are essentially the same :)20:32
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RST38hIn related news, "iPhone app debuts for plastic surgery enthusiasts"20:33
Khertan_n900_what is exactly MG ? i didn t see it in testing20:33
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RST38hKhertan: It is a SEGA GameGear/MasterSystem emulator20:34
RST38hKhertan: I think you may know SMS as MegaDrive820:34
RST38hThat was the European name, I guess20:34
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wazdRST38h: megadrive= genesis20:35
Khertan_n900_euh no in france it was master system for the 8bit20:35
Khertan_n900_and megadrive for the 16 bits20:35
RST38hwazd: That is MegaDrive16. The only reason why "16" got lost is because it is so much more popular20:35
wazdRST38h: ah)20:36
RST38hSMS kinda flickered and was gone...20:36
Khertan_n900_and MegaDriveCD for the upgrade20:36
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RST38hYeah, and there was a keyboard for the Genesis too ;)20:36
Khertan_n900_hum i ll try it tommorow when i ll be able to got a rom20:36
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RST38hBTW, SMS had a keyboard and a BASIC too, MG will emulate those20:37
Khertan_n900_anyway someone know to clone / duplicate / copy a gtk.TextBuffer i python20:37
Khertan_n900_as using copy module do not do it20:37
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ShapeshifterIs there already scummvm for the n900?20:40
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CrashedMicrobsorry just got a crash of microb20:40
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Shapeshiftervery cool.20:41
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ShapeshifterLooking forward to playing some day of the tentacle.20:41
Khertan_n900so no answer while i was dropped ?20:41
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zaheermJaffa, awesome your suggestion got python optified in -devel20:44
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vanksiare there any alternative email clients that support exchange than the nokia supplied mfe?20:57
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vanksiand is anyone porting vpnc to maeno 5?20:57
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andre__note though that the package is in extras-devel. it can be highly unstable, kill your device, hence not recommended to end-users until it has reached the Extras repository21:04
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Shapeshiftermhh, by the way: Is there a way to tell the n900 to connect to APs automatically if any are available when unlocking the device?21:09
Shapeshifterand does the "network manager" support execution of commands after or before connecting to the AP?21:09
javispedroit connects to APs automatically always.21:10
Stskeepsjavispedro: were you the wpasupplicant icd guy?21:10
Shapeshiftersimilar to PRE_UP POST_UP PRE_DOWN POST_DOWN in netcfg from arch for those who know it.21:10
javispedroyeah, that one.21:10
Shapeshifterjavispedro: always? can't I turn it off?21:10
Stskeepsjavispedro: think it'd work on fremantle and how much configuration would it require? :P21:10
_berto_when was Maemo-Display-Name first introduced in debian/control ??21:10
ShapeshifterI mean, I probably don't need it to be connected to APs while it's in my pocket.21:10
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Shapeshifteror doesn't it drain the battery really?21:11
javispedroStskeeps: dunno. Hopefully recompile. I was cleaning some of the complexity that is now useless with n900's new wi-fi kmod.21:11
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Stskeepsjavispedro: just pondering cos it might be useful on zoom2 or beagleboard21:11
javispedroicd2 closed though..21:12
Stskeepsyeah, not an issue with this particular port21:12
Stskeeps(icd2 is in nokia-binaries)21:12
javispedroShapeshifter: when I got my N810 I was surprised it would spent all 24h online. Now (10 months after)  I think that a gadget not doing that is useless.21:13
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Shapeshifterjavispedro: okay ^^21:14
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Shapeshifterjavispedro: I was more thinking that for the regular automatic online-checking stuff that the phone does even in my pocket, 3g/edge would be enough21:15
ShapeshifterSpecially when moving there's no point really from wlan.21:15
javispedroStskeeps: well, current version has a dependency on modified wlancond that shouldn't be needed in n900. I can't promise when I'm going to work on it though (but probably soon after I get actual hardware and have to get the device to connect to my uni's network :P )21:16
javispedroShapeshifter: I'm pretty sure WLAN uses less battery.21:16
lopzhi ;)21:16
Stskeepsjavispedro: k21:17
Shapeshiftermhh. I think it would be neat anyway if it was possible to turn off 3G depending on rules, for example when a specific AP is present. If that is not possible I'll probably work on it.21:17
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jeremiah_Looks like Diablo packages should be getting pushed into extras-devel finally.21:17
Shapeshifterbecause at my uni there's wlan everywhere and the ESSID is the same everywhere and it should connect automatically. Then it should turn off 3G21:17
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jeremiah_Garage's diablo monitor most have fallen over.21:17
Stskeepsfound the issue?21:18
jeremiah_Stskeeps: Yeah, I think so.21:18
Stskeepsand it's not caused by a conspiracy from the communist cabal? :P21:18
jeremiah_There was a file holding a pid - and the script checked if the file existed21:18
jeremiah_But not if the pid existed!21:18
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jeremiah_So the pid was gone, but the script kept thinking it was running.21:18
jeremiah_So it wouldn't start, blah blah blah21:18
Stskeepsprobably why yeah21:19
jeremiah_I think things should be working, but I would love someone to check quickly :)21:19
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jeremiah_I would be much obliged.21:19
Stskeepsi'm sure the guys in the t.m.o threads will help21:19
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jeremiah_Stskeeps: heh21:19
jeremiah_They have been very helpful.21:20
jeremiah_So considerate21:20
jeremiah_and thoughtful21:20
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jeremiah_WHY IS MY PACKAGE GOING TO /dev/null!??!?!?ONE!11121:20
qwerty12_N810jeremiah_: That's only their way of saying "I love you"21:20
jeremiah_qwerty12_N810: :)21:21
javispedroWHAT? MY PACKAGE WENT TO /dev/null????21:21
Jaffa_berto_: *ages* ago21:21
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jeremiah_Its a special place we keep for the naughty packages.21:21
jeremiah_If garage is suddenly slow, er, slower, you'll know why.21:22
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Stskeeps /dev/null being full? :P21:22
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Stskeepsi have actually encountered that one21:23
jeremiah_For real?21:23
Stskeepsdeleted /dev/null by accident21:23
Stskeepsthen it keeps on filling up21:23
javispedroand they say is more open than the iphone app store! as open as /dev/null ! ;)21:23
jeremiah_because it was linked to a real space21:23
RST38hOh the horror, the suffering: my N900 is too old for the normal update to 42.1121:23
javispedronot released and too old already.21:24
JaffaRST38h: On fremantle-stars?21:24
qwerty12_N810RST38h: Daniel's e-mail or Navifirm...21:24
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RST38hjavispedro: Your package went to /dev/random and the world entripy ate it!21:24
RST38hJaffa,qwerty: yea, that is what I am doing :)21:24
RST38hBTW, is eMMC image worth updating?21:24
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JaffaRST38h: I've not seen anything massively different yet21:24
* qwerty12_N810 didn't update his eMMC21:25
* Jaffa wouldn't have bothered TBH21:25
qwerty12_N810I have no need for the latest N900 demo video, or the latest User Guide21:25
RST38halthough partitioning may have changed21:25
* Jaffa wonders what wazd means by "absolute disrespect and ignorance" - I only get the "replied to thread" email21:25
JaffaRST38h: Let me SSH into my newly installed SSHable N900 and do a df -h for you21:26
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jeremiah_I didn't update my eMMC either.21:26
jeremiah_And though I flashed my device, it dropped into some crazy cyclical reboots21:26
RST38hdon't you at least have to wipe /opt?21:26
jeremiah_So I wonder if I really updated.21:27
JaffaRST38h: Yeah, ideally you'd have to wipe /opt21:27
JaffaPartitioning looks no different21:27
* Jaffa wishes ssh-server kept its keys as part of the backup, so he didn't have to edit known_hosts on every box now the signature has changed.21:27
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JaffaOh, and /home/user/.ssh21:28
qwerty12_N810Jaffa: We hereby nominate you as our official eMMC flash image tester21:28
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Jaffaqwerty12_N810: What an honour21:30
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Jaffawazd: what's up? saw your "disrespect and ignorance" message (but not read the whole thread)21:31
wazdJaffa: ah, never mind21:32
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wazdJaffa: absolute silence from ddp or quim21:32
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Shapeshifterwazd: what happened21:32
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* timeless_mbp_ looks for tim samoff21:33
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dmj726hey zaheerm21:34
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wazdJaffa: so I'd better quit expecting anything and keep doing things I do best - helping  for fun21:35
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RST38hok, skipping emmc21:37
RST38hwazd: you may order to my US address if you wish21:38
javispedrowouldn't you believe i'm actually learning from the tmo god thread21:38
RST38hwazd: the closest delivery is going to be in January though21:38
qwerty12_N810javispedro: You too?21:38
JaffaOh god, there's a tmo god thread.21:38
wazdRST38h: I can't order anything21:38
JaffaPerhaps one not for the digest ;-)21:38
javispedroJaffa: yes, it's growing as a community!21:39
RST38hwazd: I suspect that if you change address to US, it will work21:39
RST38hjavispedro: learning what?21:39
javispedroRST38h: about the concept of a "masochistic and sadistic" god21:39
RST38hjavispedro: that's not new21:39
javispedrohey, just one post read so far :)21:40
wazdRST38h: I'm sick of trying to get any info what to do, screw it21:40
RST38hjavispedro: Arthur Schopenhauer21:40
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RST38hwazd: Well, just means somebody has to talk to them, somebody they listen to21:41
RST38hwazd: May I suggest talking to tekojo?21:41
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RST38hwazd: Just calmly describe the situation and say that you can supply DPP with a US based address if they do not like .RU address21:42
Klownerooh, $50 rebate!21:42
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timeless_mbpJaffa: ping21:43
timeless_mbpJaffa: did you know that you can hold the shift key on the keyboard while tapping an item in the web browser?21:44
Jaffatimeless_mbp: Oooh. What it does it do?21:44
timeless_mbpit sends a right-ish-click to the content area21:44
timeless_mbpif the content area doesn't trap it, it's a left click21:44
JaffaFood time.21:45
timeless_mbpbut in the main portion of google maps, it does something more useful :)21:45
Shapeshifterwooooo n900 price dropped once more here. I'm now at just 488 Euros for the phone including 1 year of subscription whith 1gb traffic.21:45
* Jaffa found a weird keyboard input bug.21:45
* RST38h still wants Ctrl+Shift+I as an about:config option21:45
RST38hPlease please please21:45
timeless_mbpc-s-i is typically domI21:45
RST38hShapeshifter: is VAT included?21:45
ShapeshifterRST38h: yeah. Well, no "VAT" here, but yes, that's the final subsides price + subscription costs for 12 months.21:46
Jaffatimeless_mbp: 1) 2) Click "Try it out!" on "Asteroid Clone"; 3) Press Enter; 4) Cursor keys scroll page; (5: think how cool it'd be with portrait browsing)21:46
timeless_mbpShapeshifter: is 488eur actually a good deal?21:46
RST38hIt is comparable to the DPP subsudized price21:46
* Klowner gingerly prints out $50 MIR21:46
timeless_mbpJaffa: sp3000 has portrait browsing21:46
Shapeshiftertimeless_mbp: very21:46
* timeless_mbp had it on a device but the device was reflashed and is now on loan21:46
RST38hJaffa: Portrait browsing has been already implemented at the time of the summit21:46
Jaffatimeless_mbp: Anyway, the browser traps the cursor keys and the JS never gets them :-(21:47
RST38hJaffa: Just not enabled in firmwares21:47
timeless_mbpJaffa: switch to interaction mode21:47
JaffaRST38h: Yeah, I know.21:47
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timeless_mbpthat causes the web page to get first swing at keys21:47
Jaffatimeless_mbp: Ah, with the arrow cross thing?21:47
timeless_mbpe.g. for google reader21:47
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JaffaRST38h: QA's a bitch, eh?21:47
RST38hJaffa: UX, not QA21:47
timeless_mbpthey wanted to make sure we removed enough dialogs21:48
timeless_mbpQA was relatively happy w/ it21:48
timeless_mbpmgmt pushed us to get it into Sales21:48
timeless_mbpbut then backed off at the last minute21:48
* RST38h does not quite understand Maemo UX obsession with removing features21:49
qwerty12_N810RST38h: I know... Just look at Bugzilla21:49
RST38hIf making things simpler is the goal, it can be done in a much more intelligent way, with "Advanced" settings21:49
RST38hqwerty: from xterm to filemanager, eh?21:49
Stskeepswaz1: prod21:49
qwerty12_N810RST38h: Yep...21:50
waz1Stskeeps: what?)21:50
Stskeepswaz1: status area on mer, how should it look? what should it contain? :)21:50
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timeless_mbpStskeeps: nothing!21:50
timeless_mbpbut i want a decent screen saver clock21:50
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: that's what it currently does21:50
timeless_mbpone that doesn't use backlight21:50
timeless_mbpbut has *BIG* letters so i can read it21:51
qwerty12_N810timeless_mbp: You're not one of them (UX guy)?21:51
timeless_mbpqwerty12_N810: i'm an engineer21:51
* Stskeeps isn't actually sure what timeless_mbp exactly does21:51
timeless_mbpand i'm abused/ignored like any other consultant21:51
RST38hiPhone 'home' button earrings21:51
timeless_mbpStskeeps: at this point i'm more of a communications guy :)21:51
qwerty12_N810timeless_mbp: Ah, your "nothing!" response had me worried there for a moment21:51
timeless_mbpi'm proofing "web design guidelines"21:51
timeless_mbpand tomorrow i get to try to figure out how 3 other communication channels got garbled21:52
waz1Stskeeps: well, depends on what goal we try to reach. If 100% fremantle copy then solution is obvious)21:52
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* RST38h waits for "/ 100% full" error21:53
timeless_mbpStskeeps: you should support the same api maemo5 does21:53
timeless_mbpbut actually let people hide things21:53
* Jaffa is thinking of trying the optified Python, since it was his damned idea which has been implemented21:53
timeless_mbplike w7 and friends do21:53
Jaffa(thanks lizardo)21:53
timeless_mbpJaffa: heh, good for you21:53
Stskeepswaz1: we can have our own personality though :P21:54
waz1Stskeeps: hmm...21:54
qwerty12_N810Jaffa: I, hating the space Python took, thank both you and lizardo21:54
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timeless_mbpStskeeps: out of the box, i'd say Clock, Alarms, Network, Battery, Bluetooth, GPS, and Presence21:54
timeless_mbpwhich is basically the same set that nokia has21:54
timeless_mbpthe explanations:21:54
timeless_mbpwifi/gprs eat battery21:54
timeless_mbpgps eats batter21:55
infobottimeless_mbp meant: gps eats battery21:55
timeless_mbppresence eats battery21:55
timeless_mbpalarms can hurt your ears21:55
waz1Stskeeps: maybe we can make whole taskbar thinner, while keeping hotspots the same21:55
timeless_mbpbluetooth eats battery and can surprise you21:55
javispedroRST38h: so, this removing features bad habit may come from gnome guys.21:55
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timeless_mbpjavispedro: it doesn't21:55
timeless_mbpthe ui designers are finns from a local uni21:55
timeless_mbpthey don't deal w/ gnomites21:55
RST38hjavispedro: I would blame S6021:55
timeless_mbpand for fremantle none of the (afaik) had anything to do w/ s6021:56
timeless_mbphistorically we had some ui/ux people from s9021:56
RST38hthe new UI surely looks like S60, and the APIs also look like Avkon21:56
qwerty12_N810timeless_mbp: 'cept the icons? =)21:56
timeless_mbpthe artwork for maemo5 is indeed s6021:56
suihkulokkitimeless_mbp: bluetooth also impurifies and saps your bodily fluids?21:56
timeless_mbpqwerty12_N810: bah, give me some time to type won't ya?21:56
timeless_mbpoh, and usb connected21:57
timeless_mbpbasically, i don't think any of the default status components shouldn't be displayed if they're active21:57
timeless_mbp(by default)21:57
timeless_mbpbut if a user wants to, let them hide them21:57
timeless_mbpthe policy for portrait is stricter21:57
timeless_mbpand people should remember my pictures that explain why21:58
timeless_mbp(also syncing when active should appear, again because it can drain battery)21:58
timeless_mbpif anyone here hasn't heard the story of MfE draining battery...21:58
waz1Stskeeps: I'll try to mock something up when I'll reach desktop pc21:58
timeless_mbpbasically if you change your Exchange server password on another system21:58
Stskeepswaz1: sounds good21:59
timeless_mbpthen mail sync would fail to get mail (duh)21:59
timeless_mbpwhen it fails, it tries again21:59
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timeless_mbpwhen it fails, it tries again (again, forever)21:59
timeless_mbpyour device heats up and your battery drains really fast :)21:59
timeless_mbpso knowing that syncing is active is really important! :)21:59
timeless_mbpoh, obviously being in a 'silent' profile should be visible too...22:00
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timeless_mbpsince you want a visual reminder that you'll miss calls if you don't watch your phone22:00
qwerty12_N810timeless_mbp: That's just the secret feature designed for keeping people warm during Helsinki winters22:00
* timeless_mbp has missed calls for days because of this22:00
Shapeshifterand an R for roaming.22:00
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timeless_mbpShapeshifter: not really actually22:00
Stskeepsr&d mode with serial enabled is excellent for keeping your hands warm22:00
timeless_mbpusually you know when you start roaming22:00
timeless_mbpand you don't usually transition between roaming and not roaming22:01
timeless_mbpqwerty12_N810: someone recently figured out the advantage of the n900 over other touch phones22:01
timeless_mbp... it works in the winter in helsinki (or anywhere else in Finland)22:01
timeless_mbp... with gloves on :)22:01
Shapeshiftertimeless_mbp: depending on the phone and options it supports, people at borders of countries struggle with roaming22:01
qwerty12_N810timeless_mbp: *grin*22:01
Shapeshifterand receive bills in the hundrets because of it22:01
lcuki thought that was well known reason for resistive?22:01
timeless_mbpqwerty12_N810: i've loved that feature for over a month :)22:01
timeless_mbplcuk: someone mentioned reading in a forum recently where someone discovered this22:02
lcukit will get rediscovered every year :)22:02
timeless_mbpShapeshifter: the n900 lets you disable data roaming22:02
Shapeshifterhappened here all the time. The provider I worked for now even disabled roaming by default because people living at the border would pick up a romaing signal instead of their own.22:02
* timeless_mbp chuckles22:02
timeless_mbpthere were some stories of people near cruise liners getting billed for super roaming22:02
* microlith boggles at nokia22:02
timeless_mbpbecause the tower on the docked boat was capturing their signal22:02
Shapeshiftertimeless_mbp: yeah but still, same for normal calls. I mean, I don't care, as I don't live at the border and don't do many calls anyway, but I find it a needed feature to see that roaming is enabled22:03
microlithso they were going to cancel my order, but failed at all to notify me of this fact22:03
timeless_mbpShapeshifter: *shrug*22:03
microlithis nokia normally this sloppy with their orders?22:03
timeless_mbpthat's the first thing i'd disable22:03
timeless_mbpmicrolith: sloppy?22:03
timeless_mbpmessy? absolutely22:03
* lcuk curses for some unknown reason22:04
lcuk2 ways to solve it, dig in and muck with apt code, or buy faster broadband22:05
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* CoreFusion- finally got his second monitor to work22:05
timeless_mbplcuk: there's a patch22:05
timeless_mbpCoreFusion-: on your n900?22:06
qwerty12_N810lcuk: 3) Stop downloading porn at the same time22:06
* lcuk nods @ timeless22:06
lcukqwerty12_N810, ummm errr yeahhh well dont leave your server running in the daytime for me to get ti22:06
CoreFusion-timeless_mbp: no :P, on my desktop, still havent got my n90022:06
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* javispedro has neither n900 nor 3d drivers and will be angry.22:06
javispedrofortunately, being busy mitigates it.22:06
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* javispedro ponders learning iphone development...22:09
javispedroI need some OpenGL ES hw to do some schoolshow22:09
javispedroand I could easily "loan" one of those eljobso phones...22:09
dmj726why itoy development?  Why not n900?22:10
timeless_mbpjavispedro: are you practicing Fingrish?22:10
timeless_mbpbecause you want "borrow"22:11
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javispedrowas that the most worrisome grammar error I've made in the latest hours? :) That would mean I'm improving!22:11
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CoreFusion-did you guys read about the google spdy-protocol?22:12
timeless_mbpi heard about it22:12
CoreFusion-to replace http22:12
CoreFusion-interesting stuff22:12
timeless_mbpjavispedro: i've only been around for 45mins22:13
timeless_mbpCoreFusion-: iirc it isn't a replacement22:13
greenflyyeah, reminds me of other companies with significant market shares that have wanted to replace standard protocols with an in-house one22:13
timeless_mbpit's an accelerator for caching22:13
timeless_mbpgreenfly: this isn't quite an in house protocol22:13
timeless_mbpit's a derivative of someone else's proposal22:13
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timeless_mbpand google has almost enough market share to try22:14
timeless_mbpnote that Real made rtsp which kinda worked22:14
timeless_mbpapple pushed things like Bonjour22:14
greenflyoh I have no doubt if anyone can 'encourage' all existing browsers and web servers to adopt a new protocol it will be google22:15
greenflyof course we know that MS won't do it, so then we'll have some nice fragmentation22:15
timeless_mbpit's sufficient for google to get browser vendors to implement it22:15
timeless_mbpsince that can save google bandwidth22:15
timeless_mbpanytime google saves bandwidth, they save money22:15
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greenflysufficient for them22:16
timeless_mbpwell... if you're a company22:16
timeless_mbpand you spend 5 man years on a project22:16
timeless_mbpor 20% of 5 man years on a project22:16
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timeless_mbpso 1 man year22:16
timeless_mbpand you save millions of dollars22:16
timeless_mbphow does that equation sound to you?22:16
timeless_mbpafaiu, most google projects start as teams of 5 or fewer22:16
timeless_mbpand typically in 20% time22:17
lcukthey get over the hump of most projects22:17
javispedrothat you only need 1 person to break HTTP, and 20 years to fix it.22:17
lcukif its gonna fail and not be worthwhile it will be at that stage usually22:17
greenflyI guess I just haven't gathered enough info on it, such as, who controls the protocol code base?22:17
timeless_mbpiirc it's open on google code22:17
greenflywho decides what updates make it in, etc.22:17
timeless_mbpso far i haven't heard of problems w/ their accept system22:18
timeless_mbpmozilla shares breakpad with them22:18
greenflywell mozilla has a vested interest22:18
greenflytheir foundation is heavily funded by google22:18
timeless_mbpin breakpad?22:18
timeless_mbpyou mean getting crash reports?22:18
greenflyin return for the default search engine rights22:18
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timeless_mbpthat has absolutely nothing to do with our use of breakpad22:18
timeless_mbpgoogle doesn't care one way or the other22:18
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timeless_mbpand some people presumably have contributed changes to android22:19
greenflyI'm saying that pointing to mozilla as someone who hasn't had issues cooperating with Google may not be the best example22:19
timeless_mbp(as a Nokian, I can only presume)22:19
CoreFusion-O.o someone using IPv6 already?22:19
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greenflysince the two organizations already cooperate on many levels22:19
timeless_mbpgreenfly: ok, so if nokia manages to cooperate w/ google somewhere, that'd be more impressive?22:19
greenflyyeah, it would be a better example than Mozilla, as Nokia (at least AFAIK) isn't getting major funding from Google22:20
timeless_mbpwe get money for default search in the n900 :)22:20
greenflywhat would be more impressive to me is how they would treat competitors22:20
timeless_mbpgoogle has reached out to microsoft and yahoo at times22:21
timeless_mbpalthough to yahoo it was more to prop them up to avoid ms buying them :)22:21
greenflyeveryone reaches out to everyone to adopt standards they have come up with :)22:21
timeless_mbp(didn't work, but hey)22:21
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timeless_mbpwell... the n800/n810/n900 have google talk (including the branded logo)22:22
timeless_mbpso we had to have some agreement :)22:22
timeless_mbp> Nokia and Google to 0ffer [sic] Google Search to Nokia customers worldwide22:23
timeless_mbp> February 12, 200822:23
* timeless_mbp wonders if Nokia used OCR to write that press release22:23
timeless_mbpit's the ****n title!22:23
greenflyin any case I'm not saying that Google won't partner with companies and work with them well22:24
greenflyI'm just wondering how they will cooperate with patches from competitors22:24
RST38hLet him22:24
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timeless_mbp> Nokia and Google to Offer Google Search to Nokia Customers Worldwide22:27
timeless_mbpthe google press center doesn't use a Zero22:27
timeless_mbpi'm so disappointed in them22:28
timeless_mbphow dare they show us up by not including a typo in their headline!22:28
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timeless_mbpavs: ping22:29
qwerty12_N810...and the wars start22:29
avstimeless_mbp, pong22:30
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* Jaffa was particularly boggled by the "Google" widget included in the sales release. It seems to have a slightly rotating 'g' and basically be a bookmark.22:33
* CoreFusion- is justing surfing around and learned that the speed of sound in titanium is over 4 kilometers per second22:34
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kalikianadid the image come with a few hallucinogenes? :)22:35
timeless_mbpJaffa: yeah, that was odd22:35
qwerty12_N810It's Nokia's awesome replacement for the Search widget in Maemo 422:36
CoreFusion-so if we would build a ring around earths equator made of titanium then it would take 161.3 minutes for a sound go around the earth in that ring22:38
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wazdCoreFusion-: breathe, dude!22:38
RST38hbreathe it out quick22:39
SpeedEvilGraphite fibre would be even faster22:39
* CoreFusion- is taking a breath22:39
SpeedEvil(along the fibre axes.22:39
CoreFusion-do the same for mars and it would tkae 85,9 minutes22:39
RST38hdon't take a breath of whatever you are smoking, you have had enough22:39
CoreFusion-whoa.. or a whopping 1808 minutes for jupiter O.o22:40
CoreFusion-(30.14 hours)22:40
RST38hAt which depth?22:40
wazdMars is smaller than the Earth?)22:40
aepso where is the shell?  is that some sort of hidden entry?22:41
CoreFusion-wazd: yes.. didn't you know that?22:41
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wazdCoreFusion-: never been there :D22:41
ShadowJKHow far to jupiter at lightspeed anyway22:42
qwerty12_N810wazd: Dude, you don't know what you're missing out on22:42
wazdDamn,  that's fail... I really thhought that mars is slightly bigger22:42
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CoreFusion-ShadowJK: 50.45 minutes22:43
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wazdSeriously, oh my... Never  thought I can fail in this :D22:45
CoreFusion-ShadowJK: soryr my mistake, between earth and jupiter, 41.69 minutes22:46
RST38hwazd: BTW
CoreFusion-50.45 is between mars and jupiter22:46
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ShapeshifterI think there's better use for titanium22:47
CoreFusion-could be :P22:47
ShapeshifterLike, making sporks22:47
RST38hwazd: With raw telemetry data included ;)22:47
CoreFusion-indeed, what are they usually made of ?22:47
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wazdRST38h: I have to sell my kidney to view it thru EDGE :D22:48
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CoreFusion-cos titanium is 1.7 times as dense as aluminium22:49
CoreFusion-why didn't they make the casing for n900 out of titanium? :D that would have been so cool :P22:50
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lbtactually it would have been warmer22:51
CoreFusion-a lot22:51
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jaskaPu-238, itd work as a handwarmer in cold winters and as a power source22:52
Shapeshifterand as a source for cancer22:53
CoreFusion-thermal conductivity of titanium is less than one tenth of aluminium22:53
Shapeshifterhow practical22:53
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ShapeshifterIt's soo cool that voyager 1 has power for at least until 202522:54
CoreFusion-isn't it powerder by some kind of nuclear battery? do i remember correctly?22:55
jaskasolar wont work that far away :)22:55
Shapeshifter one of these22:55
CoreFusion-Hah, i'm gonna call nokia and say "I'd like two Radioisotope thermoelectric generator with my N900 please"22:56
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Shapeshifteryeah, with some improvement, that will fit in a backback22:57
Shapeshifterthe generator, not the woman.22:57
aepumm how do you press enter in the emulator?22:58
aepmy actual physical enter key doesnt work at least22:58
javispedroor the Keypad intro.22:59
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aepi dont have that one22:59
Testerhas anyone gotten adblock plus to work correctly ?22:59
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javispedroaep: you don't have ?23:00
GeneralAntillesAh, geneven.23:00
GeneralAntillesCan't even keep from sniping, can you?23:00
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infobotGeneralAntilles meant: Can't ever keep from sniping, can you?23:01
aepjavispedro: nope23:01
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aephm, apt doesnt work at all inside the sdk, does it?23:03
aepis it usuable on the final device?23:03
Stskeepsremember 'fakeroot'? :P23:03
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qwerty12_N810Ha, Reggie brought the smackdown to that religious thread23:04
aepStskeeps: hm yes. but that doesnt do any difference anyway23:04
aepif fakeroot is what i think it is, then it lacks half the nessesary utils to run package scripts23:05
RST38hwazd: ouch.23:05
RST38hwazd: Actually, should be ok over edge, just slow like hell23:05
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RST38hqwerty: So soon?23:06
RST38hqwerty: I have just asked if there is any evidence of plants performing religious rites for the human gods and whether plants practice smoking marijuana to get into the higher consciousness state23:07
CoreFusion-woah, big news -
aepbtw, is it possible to run without hildon-desktop? i fear the 100% cpu usage might drain the battery rather quick23:07
javispedrooh, new sdk23:07
javispedroaep: are you trying to extract any kind of conclusion about the device from looking at the SDK?23:08
aepare you saying i shouldnt? :D23:09
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javispedroon your own, though.23:10
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aepwell i'm trying to find out how hackable it is23:10
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aepi'm not testing how good it is as a consumer device. i dont care anyway23:11
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Shapeshifteraep: well, for _you_ it has Qt.23:12
* GeneralAntilles head -> desk.23:12
GeneralAntillesHey, ho, we've got this new firmware for you!23:12
GeneralAntillesHA! It doesn't work on your device! SUCKER!23:13
janiaep: define hackable?23:14
* javispedro notes the clutter color swap bug hasn't been fixed in sdk yet23:14
javispedroIt's a trap!23:15
Corsacit doesn't work on mine either! though maybe it wasn't intented for a sony ericsson?23:15
aepjani: run it with my favorite non debian distro without gui23:15
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qwerty12_N810Corsac: Just destroy the GDFS, it'll work then...23:16
MilhouseAnyone know why bugs are rarely if ever accepted/assigned in maemo bugzilla? eg. bug 619123:16
povbotBug Wrong character shown for umlaut in media file description23:16
Milhouseta povbot23:17
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Corsacqwerty12_N810: what's the gfds? :)23:17
MilhouseSeems an unusual way to administer bugzilla.23:17
* javispedro watches an entry in the clutter changelog that may be related to anidel's rotation issue23:18
janiaep: with proper kernel i'd bet it would run pretty much anything if "anything" has arm port..23:18
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qwerty12_N810Corsac: Area where theme settings and the like are stored. Been a while since I've messed on my Sony Ericsson, however...23:18
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aepit does- but i'm worried about where the drivers are.  especcialy if i may be forced to run hal23:18
GeneralAntillesMilhouse, because Nokia still sucks.23:19
thomastpanyone here ordered an n900 online and already received it ? trying to figure out if it has actually shipped yet23:19
MilhouseGA: Yeah, that's what I guessed... not sure if it's raising as an issue as a new bug or even in 630, is Mr Klapper about tonight? :)23:19
GeneralAntillesMilhouse, basically our only way in and out of the internal bug tracker is through Andre.23:20
GeneralAntillesSo it's resulted in decreased internal participation in some areas.23:20
* GeneralAntilles finds this part of the bugmaster role a poor bandaid.23:20
MilhouseGA: Bug 630 is as relevant today as it was when I raised it :(23:20
povbotBug Increased Bugzilla transparency - get the developers involved!23:20
GeneralAntillesDamnit, why does Daniel hate me. :(23:20
GeneralAntillesMilhouse, sadly.23:20
MilhouseGA: Andre does a great job but is let down by his colleagues23:21
GeneralAntillesMilhouse, I want to put together a Bugzilla Reportcard still.23:21
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GeneralAntillesTo use to bash Nokians in the face.23:21
* GeneralAntilles sighs.23:21
MilhouseIs one necessary? It should be pretty obvious to everyone that it's a developer free zone.23:22
GeneralAntillesThe whole situation is really terrible.23:22
GeneralAntillesThe internal processes aren't compatible with the external ones23:22
GeneralAntillesso not only do you rarely get answers, but when you do, half the time those answers are dismissive and insulting.23:22
GeneralAntillesMilhouse, probably.23:22
MilhouseI just chuckled at the last comment in bug 6088 - as if we'd have a freaking clue what int-145074 is about.23:22
povbotBug Very low touchscreen sensivitivity in the area near the left edge of the screen23:22
GeneralAntillesMilhouse, it's easier to complain when you can say "Hey, look, this team is kicking your asses at not sucking."23:23
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MilhouseNokia just don't get it, and I suspect they never will.23:23
GeneralAntillesThose "It's to spec, screw off" responses are the worst.23:24
MilhouseTell me about it. :(23:24
GeneralAntillesTwo big problems23:24
GeneralAntillesBig ships turn slowly23:24
GeneralAntillesand S60 people23:24
MilhouseTrouble is, I just don't see it changing.23:24
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MilhouseIt's been 3+ years of "open development" and the bugzilla is still a black hole.23:24
GeneralAntillesThere's not really a viable safe transitional period with the bugzilla stuff.23:25
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GeneralAntillesWhen you have two trackers there's no way one of them isn't going to get neglected.23:25
MilhouseSo kill one of them23:25
MilhouseThere, problem solved.23:25
GeneralAntillesEasier said than done23:25
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microlithhuh, that bit about NokiaUSA cancelling preorders for phone + headset was true23:25
GeneralAntillesNokia is, of course, inclined to kill the public one23:26
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GeneralAntilleswhich we definitely don't want.23:26
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MilhouseGA: Yeah, so nothing gets done.23:26
* GeneralAntilles is needs to shower and will be back in a bit.23:26
MilhouseGA: If they do that, I think they will have lost the plot completely23:26
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aepi think the big boys at nokia are well aware that the foss community is their only chance to survive. i wouldnt worry too much and just continue to poke people around23:30
aepits just the way "community" works for them apparantly..23:30
Milhousethat's what is so frustrating about the current "broken" process23:31
* Stskeeps votes bugtracker for all publically developed stuff gets moved to b.m.o23:31
javispedrowasn't that the plan?23:31
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Milhousenot sure - too much discussion, too little action.23:32
suihkulokkitoo many people wanting ponies in bugzilla so the relevant bugs slip under23:33
Milhouseapart from one or two brave Nokia developers there's hardly any "presence" in b.m.o from anyone official (apart from Andre)23:33
Milhousenobody seems to take responsibility for bugs - if you're lucky they might get fixed in some future release, not that you'll ever know beforehand23:34
Milhouse"Is this now fixed in release x.yyy.zzzz?" is a comment entry in b.m.o - it's ridiculous, doesn't anyone know for sure?????23:35
jeremiah_That is part of the problem with a public / private code base23:35
Milhousethe tracking of defects is haphazzard - a changelog has been promised for years.23:36
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Robot101there is a very strict tracking of defects and requirements with releases, and integration phases, etc23:37
Robot101its just... not with those defects :(23:37
MilhouseRobot: Right, which gives the community the impression they're not really of any interest. So why bother in the long term?23:37
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MilhouseAre we just an annoyance? Sometimes I get that impression23:38
MilhouseA necessary evil, perhaps.23:38
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GeneralAntillesThe whole thing is pretty infuriating23:39
GeneralAntillesand the worst part is people running out of steam and dropping off.23:39
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* GeneralAntilles still doesn't have a freaking FIASCO image.23:40
Stskeepsit's almost midnight in finland..23:40
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MilhouseDo Nokia really want our involvement in detecting, submitting and tracking bugs? I think they should be honest, and if they do they should commit to improving the process as per bug 630 (for starters). If not, just close down b.m.o and be done with it, stop the pretence.23:41
povbotBug Increased Bugzilla transparency - get the developers involved!23:41
MilhouseHmm... maybe this should go on brainstorm - that would be a laugh. :)23:42
TesterMilhouse: some developers do reply23:42
MilhouseYes, you can probably count them on the fingers of one hand though23:42
MilhouseAnd some of them have been public since the early days (particularly Eero)23:42
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Testerthe problem is more like that there are a bunch of things that you dont want to say in public23:44
Tester(or can't)23:44
Milhouseb.m.o could handle that if it was configured correctly.23:45
Testerlike having hidden bugs ?23:45
Testerdidnt Ari said he wanted a single bug tracker ?23:45
Milhousesecurity related bugs, or bugs relating to new products - yes23:45
Testerand well, public bugs are only useful for public releases..23:46
aepi sort of trust nokia to get this fixed the next years. after all they bought trolltech to learn from them how to do open source...23:46
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Testerits more like the trolls learning from nokia23:46
TesterI meant, they didnt even have a public source repo before23:46
MilhouseIf Mozilla can operate in public while keeping security related bugs hidden (until they are fixed) then I see little reason why Nokia can't do the same - the functionality is already there in b.m.o it just needs to be utilised.23:47
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TesterMilhouse: mozilla is a non-profit23:47
aepand now they hang out on irc and have a public tracker.  lots of good things happened :)23:47
Testerthey dont do anything in secret23:47
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MilhouseTester: Yes but responsible for 30 million+ installs23:47
MilhouseWhat has profit/non-profit got to do with it?23:47
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aepthat the point is non technical23:48
Testerwell, mozilla does everything in the open... nok can't do that23:48
MilhouseTester: Security related bugs are not discussed publicly in the Mozilla defect tracker - they're hidden and only available to authorised developers.23:48
aepthey could23:48
Testersecurity is just one thing23:49
aepi don't think they want to. thats a huge step23:49
TesterI think some of them would love it.. and many other nokians thing its jsut a pipe dream23:49
MilhouseTester: Yes, but the point I'm making is that the functionality is present within the Bugzilla defect tracking system to keep bugs private or public, so one defect tracker could be used23:49
aepespeccialy they don't want to discuss new devices in public :D23:49
Milhouseaep: spot on, which is why this pretence should be addressed once and for all.23:49
Milhouseaep: "spot on" in that they don't want to - not that they can't23:50
aepi think i missused the word "they"23:50
janiaep: i think huge step takes many small steps to cover the whole length23:50
aep"they" implies everyone inside nokia thinks alike, which isnt true23:51
ljpwe are borg23:51
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aepthere you are :D23:51
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lbtif I do a backup and then flash, is the backup wiped off the device?23:51
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MilhouseWell, as somsone said or aluded to earlier - they need foss more than foss needs Nokia.23:52
lbtor does the flash not touch the MyDocs area?23:52
Milhouselbt: if the backup is stored on the internal storage, yes.23:52
aepthey know that. i think the prolem is that they still have to learn HOW to do community, not IF23:52
qwerty12_N810lbt: MyDocs only gets touched if you flash the eMMC23:52
Milhouselbt: it will replace the MyDocs area23:52
qwerty12_N810lbt: I did not flash the eMMC, so my backup is still there23:52
qwerty12_N810(after flashing)23:52
* lbt feels this may be worth noting in the Wiki23:52
aepsome devs have been part of foss for ages, some didnt even know it exists23:53
lbtie do a backup *and copy it off the device*23:53
GeneralAntillesManagement really needs to change23:53
aepMilhouse: time will fix this i think, just don't give up :)23:53
Milhouseaep: 4 years and counting.... slow learners I guess! Not sure they have long left, to be honest - they need to get it right sooner than later.23:53
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GeneralAntillesI'd be happy with having product owners who put 30 minutes a week into b.m.o23:53
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aepMilhouse: yeah or the other side of fixed takes effect23:53
TesterGeneralAntilles: management of nok is many order of magnitudes more clueful to foss than at any other mobile company23:53
GeneralAntilleslbt, eMMC flash is not for production devices.23:53
GeneralAntillesTester, sadly that's still not good enough.23:54
lbtGeneralAntilles: OK23:54
GeneralAntillesTester, and that's my trademark argument. :P23:54
MilhouseIt's all very nice knowing that they know what it's all about, the problem is it's not translating into action at the coalface.23:55
* GeneralAntilles wonders where he put his key.23:55
aepand Tester had a good point.  compare it to other mobile phone vendors.23:55
MilhouseYou mean those who are signing up to Android and producing very nice devices without the aggravation of people like us?23:55
aepyup.  prefer that?23:56
SpeedEvilOpenmoko has interesting parallels. Open in some ways, closed in others.23:56
suihkulokkiMilhouse: where do you report bugs agains motorola droid or htc hero?23:56
MilhouseNo of course not, but they don't make any pretence to involve us in the development process. Nokia has done, and has failed. How long can it continue without our involvement? Does it need us?23:56
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aepsuihkulokki: customer support of course!  friendly offshore workers with no clue whatsoever23:57
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GeneralAntillesMilhouse, pfft.23:57
janimilhouse: failed how ? to not fix every bug reported on the bmo ?23:57
GeneralAntillesMilhouse, Android is a joke as far as openness goes.23:57
MilhouseOh sure, not suggesting it wasn't23:57
GeneralAntillesMilhouse, I'd rather have my foot in the door and have a chance of getting it more open than no chance at all.23:57
Stskeepsopen source discussion in the morning, bugtracker discussion in the evening..23:58
GeneralAntillesAlthough the response rate on b.m.o is poor, at least you can file bugs and at least you do get responses sometimes.23:58
Stskeepsi love this community.23:58
Milhousejani: not every bug, but opening up the development process to involve the community more in the bug resolution process. It's a black hole, and despite many promises that hasn't changed in 2 years.23:58
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, I went to Sam's and got 200lbs of troll food for $15.99.23:58
aepMilhouse: well i agree on the promises beeing slightly inapropriate23:59
aepMilhouse: those are suggestions from individuals which have never been on any agenda i guess23:59
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janimilhouse: granted.23:59
aepor the agenda says "take care of the comunity...  someone"23:59
MilhouseGA: You must have the patience of a saint :)23:59

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