IRC log of #maemo for Monday, 2009-11-16

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RST38h	You mean Modest?	00:00
Anidel	and then yeah configure modest to use nokia messaging	00:00
Anidel	I've configured NM to sync few more folders.. but they are not appearing in Modest :/	00:00
RST38h	Well...umgh...Modest...	00:01
Corsac	might make sense to try Anjal on n900	00:01
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Corsac	maybe he can keep up a bit more on the load	00:01
Shapeshifter	uhm, the n900 has IR right?	00:02
Anidel	rst38h :p	00:02
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RST38h	Corsac: Evolution alone will take all the space available at /	00:03
Anidel	shapeshifter indeed it has it	00:03
Corsac	RST38h: but eds is already there, isn't it?	00:04
Corsac	RST38h: and Anjal is not evolution (though it seems to require some libs from it :/ )	00:04
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Shapeshifter	Hum. So, is there an app already available to use the n900 as a remote control for the PC and stuff over IR?	00:04
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RST38h	Corsac: SSite says it is UI on top of evolution	00:05
Anidel	shapeshifter well very few PCs have IR do they?	00:05
Corsac	RST38h: on top of evolution-data-server	00:05
RST38h	hmm	00:05
Corsac	it /supposed/ to be targeting netbooks	00:05
Corsac	though I wasn't really convinced, tbh	00:05
Shapeshifter	Anidel: mhh, I have. Well, and my HTPC has. but in any case, is there some IR software?	00:06
Shapeshifter	any software? I can't imagine what else to do with IR these days.	00:06
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Anidel	there's IRRECO that's using it	00:06
Shapeshifter	mhh	00:07
Firebird	hrm, is the N900 IR send only?	00:07
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Anidel	I only know it's not Irda compatible	00:08
Firebird	if its send and recieve there's a possibility it could be used like a button similar to the proximity sensor	00:09
javispedro	RST38h: prepare to sigh http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=377289#post377289	00:10
qwerty12_N900	RST38h: Have you promoted the latest VGBA? I tried it, and was impressed with the update (thanks!). One request, however: Please allow the user to cancel the accelerometer calibration dialog in the next update	00:10
Shapeshifter	I wonder why they even included IR	00:10
RST38h	qwerty: No, have not promoted it yet. The dialog should be cancellable by clicking outside	00:10
Shapeshifter	Was it like "humm, there's some space left in that corner we can't fill with something else." "We still have a box of IR leds"	00:11
RST38h	qwerty: if it does not, simply lay the tablet onto a flat surface :)	00:11
RST38h	qwerty: also, cancelling the main settings dialog will discard all changes including accel calibration	00:11
qwerty12_N900	RST38h: Not cancelling when I click outside	00:12
RST38h	javispedro: seen this already, let 'em...	00:12
qwerty12_N900	RST38h: Noted =)	00:12
RST38h	qwerty: Something is wrong with my code then =(	00:12
RST38h	javispedro: I do not think any of these Oct2009ers fully understand the actual size of controls they are proposing =)	00:13
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lcuk	Oct09er actually doesnt sound like such a bad thing.	00:14
javispedro	the HD2 thread is fantastic	00:15
RST38h	in theory, yes. in practice things do not always work out the same way though	00:15
lcuk	RST38h, the best part is the fact they can deduce all this from a screenshot!	00:15
lcuk	i might release a version of liqbase operating at exactly the right size and scale as it appears on n900	00:16
RST38h	Well, it is not like they have got real devices yet :((	00:16
javispedro	I think that's the key	00:16
javispedro	stop people who don't have devices yet from posting! :)	00:16
* javispedro hides		00:17
* RST38h sighs now		00:17
* zerojay applauds		00:17
qwerty12_N900	javispedro: OK, stop posting ;P	00:17
* zerojay BURRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRN		00:17
RST38h	Hmmm	00:17
* lcuk wedges a piece of card into something		00:18
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javispedro	qwerty12_N900: I didn't exactly mention "which" device you have to own ;)	00:18
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RST38h	Another 5 "votes" for AlmostTI	00:20
qwerty12_N900	javispedro: True, true. I like your posts, anyway...	00:20
RST38h	hmmm	00:20
* lcuk gives up and uses a ball of tissue instead		00:20
lcuk	RST38h, woo!	00:20
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lcuk	people are playing with it	00:20
RST38h	All made in one minute	00:20
lcuk	the power of maemo.org	00:21
qwerty12_N900	lcuk: Not -testing votes...	00:21
RST38h	So, no, I do not think people are playing with it	00:21
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Anidel	how come ? my fantastic super easy wonderful app just got 5 in 6 days... grrr	00:21
lcuk	does thumbs occur just as "fast" as -testing?	00:21
Anidel	ah not -testing ones..	00:21
lcuk	cos i can happily see people click click clicking	00:21
Anidel	I do get several in one shot sometimes..	00:21
RST38h	Anidel: Either it is a bug or somebody systematically votes down a bunch of apps	00:22
RST38h	I have got several dozen for AlmostTI alone	00:22
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qwerty12_N900	RST38h: Actually, that's probably another factor regarding Midgard's slowness... Someone is downvoting apps rapidly, and we get e-mails telling us of that...	00:22
Anidel	rst38h: no idea... and I don't know why people are downloading it NOW and not before.. Maemo Select effect?	00:22
lcuk	lol @ self perpectuating thing. you complain people vote it down, people go to your link to test whether its voting you down	00:22
lcuk	bingo!	00:22
RST38h	qwerty: You can't downvote rapidly, have to change your IP address	00:23
RST38h	Anidel: Doubt it	00:23
RST38h	But may be	00:23
qwerty12_N900	RST38h: If it isn't a bug, this guy is managing well :)	00:23
zerojay	I'm getting a ton of those e-mail votes as well.	00:23
lcuk	do you have to be a unique uesr to vote down?	00:23
RST38h	lcuk: Naaah, it does not work this simply	00:23
* javispedro notes that both samba 3.0.22 as avail on diablo extras and samba 3.0.23c as avail on nokia repos have glaring security holes		00:23
lcuk	how often can i vote your apps down?	00:23
Anidel	yeah but you don't deserve them :D I do :P	00:23
RST38h	qwerty: Yea, probably running a bot	00:23
lcuk	i get loads of upvotes for liqbase :D	00:24
RST38h	lcuk: Is there any way to see the list of votes?	00:24
lcuk	mail history	00:24
RST38h	but it does not say whether they are up or down	00:24
RST38h	or who voted	00:24
lcuk	dunno	00:24
Anidel	don't think threre's a way	00:25
qwerty12_N900	Why is anonymous voting allowed in the first place, anyway? Just like you have to be signed in to vote for apps in -testing	00:27
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javispedro	iirc supposedly anonymous voting was removed	00:27
qwerty12_N900	javispedro: Not according to the daily e-mails I've been getting...	00:28
mikkov__	bug #6192	00:28
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6192 Bots are voting in Maemo Select?	00:28
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qwerty12_N900	~mikkov++	00:28
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javispedro	lol	00:29
javispedro	the idea of googlebot voting amuses me	00:29
javispedro	can one emit a vote with just GET requests?	00:30
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mikkov__	in Maemo Select I think you can	00:31
lcuk	javispedro, i really hope not	00:32
lcuk	or rather mikkov_	00:33
mikkov__	http://maemo.nokia.com/rating_gateway.php?rating=3&product_title=fring	00:33
javispedro	oh, wow	00:33
javispedro	and lol again	00:34
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qwerty12_N900	facepalm	00:34
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qwerty12_N900	Way to go, Nokia	00:34
lcuk	blink	00:34
lcuk	and, the game begins	00:34
lcuk	16million get	00:34
Anidel	I don't need it... my super app is super cool already :p	00:34
RST38h	oh this is how they do it?	00:35
javispedro	http://maemo.nokia.com/voteapp.php?rate=5&id=122	00:35
javispedro	sorry qwerty	00:35
RST38h	ohmygod	00:35
lcuk	hahahahaha	00:35
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zerojay	Hahaha.	00:36
frals	"ops"	00:36
lcuk	what app is 122	00:36
frals	:D	00:36
lcuk	hold on, best be balanced	00:36
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javispedro	Droid foints	00:36
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zerojay	Midgard = complete fucking fail.	00:36
lcuk	i want to change something about that url	00:36
RST38h	Let CNN be balanced	00:37
javispedro	actually	00:37
RST38h	I will be myself =)	00:37
qwerty12_N900	lcuk: voteapp.php?rate=1&id=$LIQBASEID	00:37
Stskeeps	holy crap @ url stuff	00:37
RST38h	oh yesssss	00:37
javispedro	voteapp is for Ovi store apps, rating_gateway seems to be for Extras apps	00:37
lcuk	it would make the oct09er people usefule	00:37
zerojay	Midgard really helps make Maemo look second-rate with all the problems, shitty floaty bar and this kind of crap.	00:37
lcuk	qwerty12_N900, im not in maemo select	00:37
qwerty12_N900	lcuk: There, fixed it for you	00:37
RST38h	NOW I see what is going on	00:37
RST38h	Here they are, the votes	00:37
javispedro	this is clearly googlebot doing it then	00:37
* RST38h starts weeping histerically		00:38
lcuk	no	00:38
javispedro	"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."	00:38
lcuk	googlebot wouldnt do it like that surely	00:38
Anidel	so.. when I get back control of when my app goes to Extras?	00:38
RST38h	Hacked by the Googlebot...	00:38
RST38h	Anidel: You do not, apparently	00:38
RST38h	Anidel: In order to keep poor users safe from you	00:38
Anidel	rst38h I know.. I hate it as much as I hate the app store process	00:39
* RST38h still can't push fMSX, Colem, Speccy, and MG into Extras		00:39
RST38h	Need 10 votes, and nobody ever votes	00:39
lcuk	ok	00:39
lcuk	serious business	00:40
lcuk	how do we cure it	00:40
Anidel	10 votes/ 10 days...	00:40
RST38h	BTW, this means that the latest updates will stay in -Devel forever	00:40
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RST38h	lcuk: This has been discussed already, even had a meeting on #maemo-meeting	00:40
mikkov__	testing activity has gone down lately	00:40
lcuk	not that	00:40
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lcuk	i mean the silly googlebot	00:40
Anidel	I know my app works, I know I've applied 1 line change.. why can't I go straight to extras? need something to REMOVE from extras, rather than approve like it is now	00:40
Anidel	I mean... I want to go thru Testing	00:41
Anidel	keep it there for a while and let people test it.. it's really useful	00:41
Anidel	but if I KNOW there's nothing to test.. let me push it.	00:41
* RST38h will try setting vote to 10 =)		00:41
Anidel	if someone abuses it, than .. let's work on there.. how to remove that app or so	00:41
* javispedro watches RST38h hack m.o just to promote his apps :)		00:42
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qwerty12_N900	The solution is easy: Get rid of fucking anonymous voting	00:42
SpeedEvil	Or just vote all the apps back up	00:42
lcuk	the voting here is different	00:42
doc\|home	lcuk: is the google bot problem one of the bot activating votes?	00:42
RST38h	rating=99 also works	00:42
qwerty12_N900	lcuk: They still affect the votes held on maemo.org	00:43
lcuk	doc\|home, thats what rst thinks	00:43
lcuk	qwerty12_N900, but not testing	00:43
Anidel	you guys are hijacking my topic :P	00:43
* RST38h goes into "plunder, kill, hump the geese" mode		00:43
doc\|home	lcuk: RST38h forms that alter values on the server should be sent via POST, not GET	00:43
Anidel	(same as I did :p)	00:43
qwerty12_N900	RST38h: Does 666 work?	00:43
lcuk	vanity voting != Testing voting	00:43
doc\|home	lcuk: link?	00:43
RST38h	qwerty: let us try	00:43
lcuk	http://maemo.nokia.com/voteapp.php?rate=5&id=122	00:44
RST38h	666 worked	00:44
doc\|home	lcuk: they need to change the submission of the form to post, not get	00:44
qwerty12_N900	OH GOD STOP HAVING MY E-MAIL ACCOUNT RAPED	00:44
javispedro	note that right now I don't even know which app that link votes lol	00:44
RST38h	They should freaking close this hole	00:44
lcuk	:D	00:44
lcuk	lol	00:44
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* javispedro clicks the link a few times more just in case		00:44
RST38h	post, get, whatever	00:44
lcuk	http://maemo.nokia.com/voteapp.php?rate=5&id=122&qwerty12_is_cool	00:45
RST38h	no, 666 does not seem to cause the email	00:45
* javispedro waits for something to start testing rate=0 -- DROP TABLE students;		00:45
javispedro	s/something/someone	00:45
lcuk	bobby!	00:45
mikkov__	search this from google: site:maemo.nokia.com OK	00:46
javispedro	poor conboy	00:46
beford\|n810	little bobby tables	00:46
javispedro	I can see the bug report already -- "Google is voting Maemo applications. Ban them! Evil Android engineers!"	00:47
* RST38h guesses all votes since around Nov 10 will have to be nullified		00:47
lcuk	no	00:47
RST38h	yes	00:47
GeneralAntilles	RST38h, as I've said several times before. Maemo Select.	00:47
* lbt wonders how much maemo.org funding this is going to eat up		00:48
lcuk	all votes originating from maemo.nokia.com	00:48
RST38h	No shit, General...	00:48
pupnik	RST38h: download Dana Countryman - Cocktails In Space	00:48
RST38h	But I kinda didn't expect the hole to be so wide that it gets "hacked" by Googlebot	00:48
lcuk	its not hacked	00:48
lcuk	its a cockup	00:49
lcuk	a wtf	00:49
lcuk	but not a hack	00:49
RST38h	see quotes	00:49
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millenomi	mmm	00:49
RST38h	pupnik: found it at lastfm	00:49
millenomi	only tangentially maemo-related in that it's part of my Cocotron ARM port, but	00:49
millenomi	anyone know how to do atomic compare-and-swap on ARM?	00:50
millenomi	and/or where to find MIT-licenceable code to that effect?	00:50
RST38h	afaik you can't	00:50
RST38h	but let us see	00:50
millenomi	I know glib does it	00:50
lcuk	whos writing up the bug before we get sidetracked?	00:50
mikkov__	add comments to bug #6192	00:51
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6192 Bots are voting in Maemo Select?	00:51
pupnik	that is retro fun	00:51
pupnik	supposedly	00:51
Anidel	btw here were the videos showing the difference in rotation between 41-10 and 42-11 (for Xournal at least): http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=376953&postcount=209	00:51
pupnik	some jerk	00:51
pupnik	nice anidel!	00:51
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qwerty12_N900	Anidel: Oh, I also notice the same behaviour in yerga's StockThis	00:52
RST38h	millenomi: does not look like arms have test-and-modify, so sorry	00:52
Anidel	it's weird how badly it does the rotation now...	00:52
mikhas	what happens if your bug title contains "bug #some_numer"? infinite recursion?	00:52
frals	power management, way to intensive to do it like in 41-10! ;+	00:52
millenomi	RST38h: thanks	00:52
Anidel	qwerty12: phone app doesn't.. rotates as usual	00:52
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Anidel	what's weird is that I first hide landscape toolbar, ask for rotation then show portrait toolbar	00:53
Anidel	you can see it from the video..	00:53
Anidel	Phone app seems to do the UI adaption while rotating.. don't see it re-adapting	00:54
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Anidel	ah... no... it does re-adapt after rotation.. it's just that's usually fast enough	00:55
GeneralAntilles	Anidel, you file a bug?	00:55
Anidel	ga: not even sure it's a bug... why in Phone doesn't do that?	00:55
Anidel	but yes	00:55
Anidel	I'll file it...	00:55
GeneralAntilles	Anidel, at the very least you might be able to get an answer about that.	00:55
RST38h	ok, sleep time	00:56
Anidel	yup	00:56
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Anidel	night rst38h	00:56
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johnx	morning everyone	00:56
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lcuk	mornin johnx	00:59
* lcuk hasnt done anything he meant for this evening		00:59
frals	ive eaten cake, thats all i set out to do today :D	00:59
Anidel	bug#6203 https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6203	01:00
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6203 Rotation in 42-11 is not as smooth in 41-10 for some third party apps	01:00
povbot	Bug 6203: Rotation in 42-11 is not as smooth in 41-10 for some third party apps	01:00
johnx	lcuk, I put up a wiki on my oldest zaurus :D	01:00
Anidel	wops.. didn't know this :)	01:00
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pupnik	the app switching animation is actually clunky under 30% cpu load.	01:01
lcuk	Anidel, dont worry povbot is there to help	01:01
Anidel	:)	01:01
lcuk	too many people wtf'ed when simple numbers were used	01:01
Anidel	will it fix the issue :p	01:01
pupnik	i want a site just for n900 parties	01:02
lcuk	have faith :)	01:02
lcuk	with the n900 theres a party in your pocket every day	01:02
* lcuk cant believe he said that		01:02
johnx	Anidel, so nokia's apps rotate smoothly still?	01:02
pupnik	it is kind of true	01:03
Anidel	Phone app does	01:03
Anidel	the only one :)	01:03
pupnik	i tried to broadcast some tunes at a party but fm signal was not strong enough	01:03
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johnx	what about the photo viewer?	01:03
lcuk	in windows, there used to be an issue with MDI windows and screen refreshes, and if you kept the window size smaller than the screen you saw an ugly flash before hand	01:04
Anidel	photo viewer does not rotate..	01:04
Anidel	the picture does	01:04
lcuk	the fix was in the app and not in the system	01:04
pupnik	need to find a nice clear channel for 5 minutes first, then lay n900 next to reciever	01:04
lcuk	pupnik, i find that bizarra	01:04
lcuk	bizarre	01:04
lcuk	fm tx is cool, i can actually overpower tracy in the car outside	01:05
lcuk	from up here	01:05
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* lcuk plots to make use of that		01:05
SpeedEvil	pupnik: did you have headphones in?	01:05
dmj7261	lcuk: you do much with clutter for liqbase?	01:06
pupnik	these things have crappy makeshift antennas and the gerÃ¶an spectrum is very noisy also.	01:06
pupnik	no SpeedEvil	01:06
pupnik	are heaphones used for tx?	01:06
lcuk	not as yet dmj7261	01:06
lcuk	liqbase is designed for n8x0 up	01:06
pupnik	the cable...	01:06
dmj7261	ok	01:06
SpeedEvil	pupnik: maybe - unsure	01:06
SpeedEvil	lcuk: any difference with or without heafphones?	01:06
lcuk	dmj7261, tho im not adverse to looking at a new backend	01:07
dmj7261	okay	01:07
lcuk	i need to anyway, ive got some technical things which i might try soon	01:07
lcuk	SpeedEvil, no, its tx	01:07
lcuk	never took headphones	01:07
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dmj7261	I've just been getting funny GLX errors with it.	01:07
SpeedEvil	k	01:07
johnx	if you plugin headphones while trying to do fm tx it will shut down the tx and route sound out of the headphone jack	01:07
* Anidel goes to sleep... see you guys		01:07
lcuk	dmj7261, just talk	01:08
lcuk	theres people who may know here	01:08
johnx	something about controlling transmit power I think	01:08
lcuk	if they have an idea or a ponder they will jump in :P	01:08
johnx	(FCC regulations or somesuch)	01:08
dmj7261	I asked last night.	01:08
dmj7261	silence	01:08
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lcuk	then you asked the wrong question or didnt offer enough cake	01:08
lcuk	or ppl were asleep	01:09
johnx	(or no one who knew was here)	01:09
dmj7261	hmmm should've offered cake	01:09
pupnik	it is still nice to have the weak fm tx - for when no cable is handy. but the 10 cm range makes using device while djing impossible	01:09
lcuk	really? what sort of cake?	01:09
javispedro	getting GLX errors sounds weird	01:09
javispedro	cause there's no GlX on the device.	01:09
dmj7261	python[31743]: GLIB WARNING ** ClutterX11 - clutter_x11_disable_event_retrieval should be called before clutter_init	01:09
dmj7261	then I get python[31769]: GLIB CRITICAL ** CLutterGLX - Unable to make the stage window 0x1e00017 the current GLX drawable	01:09
SpeedEvil	pupnik: was it a device with an roof-mounted antenna?	01:09
SpeedEvil	pupnik: that you were going to?	01:09
lcuk	are you on hardware	01:10
pupnik	all fm recievers	01:10
lcuk	or in sdk	01:10
dmj7261	http://pastebin.com/d28ecbc7d here's the offending code	01:10
SpeedEvil	pupnik: Even on a quiet channel?	01:10
lcuk	wheres my cake?	01:10
dmj7261	it's in scratchbox while I await the device	01:10
pupnik	my record for a signaal witholut noise is 30 cm	01:10
pupnik	afwhat is yours?	01:11
pupnik	awhat is yours?	01:11
johnx	dunno honestly. maybe 2m with some moderate static (nothing worse than your average fm station)	01:11
lcuk	upstairs bedroom to car	01:11
dmj7261	http://armchairgeneralist.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451b39369e20105362b61b9970b-800wi	01:11
johnx	but that 2m is passenger seat to the actual car antenna	01:12
pupnik	ok	01:12
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johnx	maybe the deck itself is picking it up with an internal antenna? or part of the antenna wiring on the way to the deck is picking it up?	01:12
pupnik	it is still useful	01:12
johnx	<- doesn't know his radio stuff very well	01:13
pupnik	but you can not use N90p normally on couch and broadcast fm to your stereo	01:13
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dmj7261	any idea on what might be going wrong?	01:13
johnx	for my own stereo I'd use A2DP :)	01:13
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pupnik	lets find the people who made a fm transmitter illegal, and shut them up	01:13
johnx	or maybe the DLNA rendering, or mpd	01:13
pupnik	ah	01:13
lcuk	dmj7261, are you meant to add the clutter stage widget to x11 first perhaps	01:14
lcuk	have you checked the actual docs on this	01:14
dmj7261	there's not much good actual documentation for clutter in pygtk	01:14
* lcuk nods		01:15
dmj7261	it seems like I'm getting the stage directly from clutter-gtk though	01:15
lcuk	http://www.clutter-project.org/docs/clutter/stable/clutter-X11-Specific-Support.html#clutter-x11-disable-event-retrieval	01:16
lcuk	the function you commented out cos you couldnt find the ref for it	01:16
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lcuk	you had removed the clutter_	01:16
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javispedro	either way, since this is a pure clutter issue you may ahve better luck in any clutter support channel	01:16
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lcuk	the error report tells him what to do	01:16
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lcuk	call disable_event before the _init	01:17
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lcuk	dmj7261, the python lib should pretty much mirror the c lib, if you are looking for refs and you cannot find it in python docs, try the c stuff :)	01:18
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dmj7261	I just imported clutter and gluttergtk in the wrong order	01:27
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lcuk	has anyone seen my pen?	01:30
johnx	I might have seen it once	01:31
johnx	do you think you might have left it in Amsterdam or Copenhagen?	01:31
javispedro	qwerty12_N900: if you already know the sharing dialog protos, wouldn't it make sense to make a community -dev package if nokia refuses?	01:31
lcuk	lol, i left it on my desk here	01:31
qwerty12_N900	javispedro: I only know the one function signature, and even that was obtained via guesswork	01:33
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javispedro	but that's THE function I guess :)	01:33
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qwerty12_N900	I guess so :p	01:34
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dmj7261	self.emotion_vars.python()	01:44
dmj7261	self.emotion_vars.python = "frustrated"	01:44
dmj7261	self.emotion_vars.python = "Okay it's actually pretty awesome now that it's working."	01:44
johnx	so importing cluttergtk second overrides some emotion variables? :D	01:44
archebyte	can't seem to setup esbox on Ubuntu 9.10.. get a blank dialog after running eclipse and selecting 'OK' from the Choose Workspace dialog..http://tinypic.com/r/33jgswn/4 any ideas?	01:45
dmj7261	yes, by way of not failing and causing me instant happiness.	01:45
luke-jr	dmj7261: btw, that is totally not sensible Python code	01:46
dmj7261	I know	01:46
dmj7261	you have to admit though, that pseudocode is pretty darn close to Python ;)	01:47
Shapeshifter	Mhhh, is there a set of tools for ash/bash, basically command line tools, to control things in the phone, like toggling 3G or setting the screen brightness and such?	01:49
johnx	Shapeshifter, probably easiest to do that with dbus-send	01:50
Shapeshifter	johnx: I see.	01:50
johnx	however, you bring up a good point that it would be neat to have some really thin shell wrappers around those functions that acted like more "classic" linux command line tools	01:50
Shapeshifter	johnx: I'll definetly get into that as soon as I have one	01:50
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johnx	do you have an n800/n810?	01:51
Shapeshifter	johnx: because it would then be a stroll to write small scripts to do things according to other states.	01:51
Shapeshifter	johnx: nope.	01:51
johnx	ah, then nevermind	01:51
johnx	I was just going to say you could get started right away :>	01:52
Shapeshifter	johnx: well ;)	01:52
Shapeshifter	I don't think scratchbox can help, right? Well, I'll read some docs if I find the time	01:52
johnx	you can surely do some stuff with dbus-send at least to get an idea of the syntax	01:53
johnx	like launching apps, or being notified when something happens	01:53
johnx	on the listening side, you probably want to look at dbus-monitor	01:53
Shapeshifter	I already know some dbus-send	01:53
Shapeshifter	did some scripting with it earlier.	01:53
johnx	very neat	01:53
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* GAN900 wishes for just one dinky little patch to fix FBReader.		01:59
johnx	the volume button thing?	01:59
johnx	yeah. me too	01:59
johnx	been using my n800 for ebooks because of that	01:59
GAN900	I bound the spacebar	02:00
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johnx	ugh. can't cope with reading landscape	02:00
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GAN900	which works well enough for paging if you keep the keyboard open slightly.	02:00
GAN900	No, portrait.	02:00
johnx	actually, the patch I want is syncable bookmarks	02:00
GAN900	I'd love to have my reading position synced across multiple devices.	02:01
johnx	yes	02:01
johnx	that's what I mean	02:01
johnx	though bookmarks that aren't necessarily the latest place you are in the book would be kinda nice too	02:02
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hrw	hi	02:02
GAN900	Meh, I read fiction in FBReader.	02:02
GAN900	Hi, hrw.	02:02
johnx	hey hrw	02:03
hrw	is maemo5 upgradable by "apt-get update;apt-get upgrade" or only total reflash is an option?	02:03
johnx	hrw, the former: no, the latter: no	02:03
w00t_	it has a seperate upgrader tool afaik	02:03
johnx	I guess their graphical apt frontend does something a little different than apt	02:03
hrw	w00t_: NSU is one thing, upgradability is other	02:03
w00t_	i wasn't talking about NSU, obviously	02:04
johnx	but most 3rd party apps can be upgraded safely by apt-get upgrade	02:04
hrw	w00t_: symbian phones use NSU to upgrade FW but some keeps user data (PIM for example) when some do not	02:04
qwerty12_N900	NSU is total shit, anyway. flasher-3.5 kicks its ass	02:04
hrw	johnx: that part I know from os2005/6/7/8	02:04
johnx	hrw, and it's the same for maemo5/n900	02:04
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hrw	johnx: sure, but I asked about nokia part of FW not 3rdparty packages	02:05
GAN900	hrw, SSU	02:05
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GAN900	or 'Maemo Update' now, I guess.	02:05
w00t_	SSU it is, I just found it	02:05
johnx	hrw, and I answered you. nokia stuff: you need to use their graphical tool, not apt-get upgrade -or- you can reflash with flasher3.5 or NSU	02:06
GAN900	Some confusion over 'graphical tool', I think.	02:06
hrw	GAN900: thx, so like it is with os2008 then	02:06
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Shapeshifter	huh the ti emulator is brilliant	02:08
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Shapeshifter	in the vid archebyte did, I find it interesting that pulse is using so much CPU. I would actually not mind just having ALSA and no pulse, not having sound in more then one app at a time.	02:10
Shapeshifter	why is pulse using like 16% cpu, just because it's playing back music. Wasn't playing anything else at the time.	02:10
GeneralAntilles	hrw, mostly, though I think the updates may be coming more regularly.	02:11
Shapeshifter	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URsNHguzHoI this is the video I meant.	02:11
Shapeshifter	I also don't hear any sound from the youtube video he's playing back.	02:11
hrw	ok	02:12
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hrw	anyway still have to wait until nokia will ship device	02:13
johnx	heh, though even before that we can already confirm that more than one person with a pre-release n900 has made it unbootable (not bricked of course) through an apt-get upgrade ;)	02:14
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GeneralAntilles	Think that has more to do with Extras-devel, however.	02:15
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johnx	GeneralAntilles, is that where the kernel update showed up briefly?	02:15
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GeneralAntilles	There were some system libs in there, too.	02:16
GeneralAntilles	I'll run some testing once I have a public FIASCO image.	02:16
johnx	is there any way to capture the image NSU downloads?	02:16
GeneralAntilles	Probably, but I think they locked it down after the Symbian stuff kept getting cracked.	02:17
johnx	I'd know how to do it in linux (by sitting on whatever filehandle it uses to store the file), but I don't know on windows ...	02:17
hrw	johnx: use wireshark and try to recreate fetching session	02:18
crashanddie	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=377404&posted=1#post377404	02:18
qwerty12_N900	johnx: Navifirm	02:18
crashanddie	I'd like him to come back from that one	02:18
GeneralAntilles	ohgod	02:18
GeneralAntilles	Religion on Talk?	02:18
w00t_	..just when you thought it couldn't get worse	02:19
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GeneralAntilles	It's almost as bad as when that troll asserted that Texrat and I would very happily fight a religious war in Iraq for Nokia.	02:20
crashanddie	hey!	02:20
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w00t_	GeneralAntilles: you wouldn't?	02:20
* w00t_ is shocked.		02:20
crashanddie	I'm a gentle troll, my arguments have good basis	02:20
pupnik	crashanddie is far from stupid	02:20
johnx	can this seal the deal in terms of personal 'ignore thread' button? along with pulling off-topic out of the righ-hand active threads column ... and putting threads that have gone off-topic into off-topic?	02:21
* GeneralAntilles wasn't asserting crashanddie is an idiot.		02:21
GeneralAntilles	Well, maybe, but that's not my point. :P	02:21
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pupnik	i think we need maemo dieties	02:21
pupnik	like 25	02:21
crashanddie	dieties?	02:21
crashanddie	as in small diets?	02:22
GeneralAntilles	Dietees?	02:22
pupnik	and GAN has to be one	02:22
crashanddie	or deities?	02:22
pupnik	demigods	02:22
pupnik	dei	02:22
johnx	crashanddie, not a big fan of counter-trolling (mostly because I don't have the energy for it), but that is some class-A stuff :)	02:22
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Robot101	demagogues?	02:22
johnx	dietess?	02:22
GeneralAntilles	I want my power to be making a loud squealing noise come out of the computer of anyone who irritates me.	02:22
crashanddie	johnx, thanks, I'm pretty big on bashing brainless religious people	02:22
pupnik	demagogue would be penguinbait	02:23
pupnik	jk	02:23
crashanddie	johnx, that being said, as I asserted in the post, I have been brought up as a Christian	02:23
pupnik	:)	02:23
pupnik	i just want to see a real old phart star by ppls names on t.m.o	02:23
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, so you're the one behind breaking the fan on my laptop?	02:23
johnx	crashanddie, yup. christian or catholic schooling I expect?	02:24
crashanddie	johnx, nope, public	02:24
GeneralAntilles	Urg	02:24
GeneralAntilles	I love the second bit you quoted, crashanddie.	02:24
johnx	crashanddie, interesting. that's a lot of bible study in your free time then	02:24
GeneralAntilles	I can handle religious types, but you got to love the ones who take it to One True Religion town.	02:24
GeneralAntilles	I only wish Nostradamus had a dogma.	02:25
crashanddie	GeneralAntilles, Nostro's dogma was "Just say shit the whole time, you're bound to hit the jackpot once, and then people will go: Oh shite, maybe the old fool was right after all"	02:26
crashanddie	and stay vague, too	02:26
GeneralAntilles	crashanddie, just like the Bible?	02:26
johnx	aka, the consultant's dogma :D	02:26
crashanddie	I'm a consultant you wanker	02:26
* johnx ducks :>		02:26
* GeneralAntilles gooses.		02:26
johnx	I'm a wanker you consultant. Don't drag me down to your level :D	02:27
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crashanddie	though, I have to say, Nostradamus was pretty much spot on for 911	02:27
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crashanddie	well	02:28
johnx	the bible was more like that campfire activity where you say a couple lines of the story, then pass it on to the next guy	02:28
crashanddie	actually, just reading it, the version I read before was FUD and re-written	02:28
johnx	but in between each "pass" you had to wright it down, let it sit for a couple hundred years, then have it translated a couple times, then the next guy could write his part	02:29
crashanddie	wright?	02:29
crashanddie	that's a new mix mate	02:29
johnx	rong? :)	02:29
crashanddie	cwite	02:29
SpeedEvil	johnx: Also - some translations of source material are more official because they were done hundreds of years ago	02:30
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SpeedEvil	'suffer the little children'	02:30
SpeedEvil	Does _not_ mean today what it once meant	02:30
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johnx	SpeedEvil, yeah, I can't stand my little cousins either. wait, what?	02:31
SpeedEvil	King james translation 'Mark 10:14 Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God.1'	02:31
SpeedEvil	In this sense it means 'allow'	02:31
SpeedEvil	Or permit	02:31
crashanddie	pretty much spot on now still	02:32
qwerty12_N900	johnx: Then, it meant to throw a rock on them; now, it means to use a flamethrower on them	02:32
crashanddie	"You nasty little prat, if you don't behave I'll have you suffer church on sunday!"	02:32
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johnx	qwerty12_N900, ah. thank you professor	02:32
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johnx	suffer the little children. suffer them right in the face!	02:32
crashanddie	johnx, sounds strangely inviting and compeling	02:33
crashanddie	and there we go, going the perv route again	02:33
johnx	it was more along the lines of a punch in the face. anything pervy was on your side of the screen	02:34
Shapeshifter	right. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CFbwqyZQF0	02:34
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crashanddie	wow, I have a ratio of 1.46 on TMO	02:35
crashanddie	(thanks/posts)	02:35
Shapeshifter	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_G9awnDCmg this one's also brilliant	02:35
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crashanddie	Shapeshifter, you kinda killed the conversation with your turd eating videos	02:44
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Klowner	I got to touch a N900 today, can't wait to get mine	02:58
* Klowner makes squealy noises		02:58
MaceN8x0	how was it?	02:59
Klowner	sexy	02:59
MaceN8x0	fast?	02:59
Klowner	at the nokia store in chicago, the lady at the front of the store said they had none, but I asked again and they had one hidden in a drawer and I got to fiddle with it	02:59
Klowner	and like, 3 people came in during that time and asked if they had any N900s	03:00
johnx	that's crazy	03:00
Klowner	it was pretty fast, I was impressed by the screen	03:01
MaceN8x0	Klowner, im in chicago!	03:01
Klowner	it's quite small, but the resolution is crazy	03:01
johnx	i'm mostly impressed that 3 other people were looking for one at the same time	03:01
MaceN8x0	so which store was it?	03:01
Klowner	MaceN8x0: the one on michigan ave.	03:01
johnx	I think Nokia might have vastly underestimated how popular this thing would be	03:01
Klowner	MaceN8x0: they have none for sale, but they might let you see the one if you're real nice	03:02
MaceN8x0	too downtown for me	03:02
GeneralAntilles	johnx, they ALWAYS underestimate EVERYTHING about Maemo.	03:03
johnx	eh. I bet they were close on the actual numbers for the maemo4 devices. I bet they guessed the dev/user ratio wrong though (underestimating the appeal to users)	03:05
GeneralAntilles	From everything I've heard about that timeframe, I'd disagree.	03:06
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GeneralAntilles	I think Nokia has consistently underestimated Maemo	03:06
GeneralAntilles	johnx, look at the bandwidth fiasco during November 2007.	03:06
Klowner	they said they should have them for sale within a couple weeks	03:07
johnx	no one ever gets bandwidth projections right	03:07
Klowner	hopefully amazon ships mine before then	03:07
GeneralAntilles	Then there's statements from Nokia people about sales numbers.	03:07
johnx	I have a feeling that the underestimation WRT the N900 is going to be of a whole different order of magnitude	03:10
GeneralAntilles	Sure, but I don't believe their estimation has been accurate at any point.	03:11
GeneralAntilles	Which is where I disagree with you.	03:11
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johnx	nah, we probably agree for the most part, just in different words :)	03:13
johnx	I should have said, "I bet they were closer with their n8x0 projections than their n900 projections"	03:14
GeneralAntilles	I hope the dinosaurs at Nokia die off or retire RSN.	03:15
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johnx	I really hope to see maemo on some more reasonably priced phones/devices	03:16
johnx	that's the biggest thing in my mind	03:16
GeneralAntilles	$399?	03:17
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johnx	GeneralAntilles, $250 maybe?	03:17
GeneralAntilles	Ups	03:17
johnx	$250 is getting closer to the "poor linux hacker" price range	03:18
GeneralAntilles	Hrm, maybe in a year or two.	03:18
GeneralAntilles	When did the N900 hit $200? Summer 2008 or so?	03:18
GeneralAntilles	Er	03:18
GeneralAntilles	s/9/8/	03:18
johnx	n800? yeah, summer 2008 I thought	03:18
johnx	easy enough to check from forum posts	03:19
GeneralAntilles	Removing the accessories from the N900 isn't going to drop the price particularly drastically	03:19
johnx	ah, you mean the IR/FM/WiFi?	03:21
GeneralAntilles	Can't drop WiFi	03:21
johnx	...	03:21
GeneralAntilles	Cellular-only Maemo would be expensive.	03:21
johnx	you can do a lot of things when you're not aiming at hackers anymore	03:21
GeneralAntilles	WiFi isn't THAT expensive, anyway.	03:22
johnx	which, BTW, is a good thing (a multi-device strategy I mean)	03:22
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johnx	nothing is really expensive on its own	03:23
johnx	except maybe the screen...	03:23
johnx	anyways, all just off-the-wall thoughts. It sounds like they want to keep it high-end for some time to come	03:23
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SD69	javispedro: ping	03:49
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* b-man17 yawns		03:58
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Thephilosopher	?	05:03
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Thephilosopher	everybody is sleeping ?	05:03
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Thephilosopher	yep	05:05
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MaceN8x0	hm	05:22
beford\|n810	hi	05:24
Thephilosopher	hi	05:26
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GeneralAntilles	crashanddie, ping?	06:12
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dmj7261	hi zaheerm	07:59
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shuduo	anyone know where I can download maemo 5 SDK tar ball? i need it for my fedora since no dpkg to install from installer script	08:27
Gummi	shuduo: http://www.forum.nokia.com/Tools_Docs_and_Code/Tools/Platforms/Maemo/	08:30
shuduo	gummi: yes, i can see installer script download only after i click "Download the Maemo 5 SDK"	08:32
shuduo	gummi: but i can't find tar ball..	08:32
Gummi	ah	08:32
Gummi	I'm not sure if they provide anything more than this installer script..	08:33
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RST38h	Mhm...christexaport went all religious on tmo	08:37
RST38h	The End must be near indeed	08:37
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shuduo	gummi: just found the script provides command line parameter to install sdk by downloading tar ball.. :D thanks	08:53
Gummi	heh... no prob	08:53
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recalcati	good morning, I'm trying to solve an usb mouse problem	08:59
recalcati	it is qt related, but in qt embedded mailing list nobody answers to my question	08:59
tekojo	morning	09:00
tekojo	recalcati what exactly?	09:00
recalcati	I mean: qt can manage input event mouse event or not ?	09:00
tekojo	recalcati, what are you trying to do? Qt does a lot of things	09:01
recalcati	I'm getting crazy, because with cat /dev/input/event2 \| hexdump I see events. I did ln -s /dev/input/event2 /dev/mouse	09:01
recalcati	then I start strace -e open,read ./deform -qws	09:02
tekojo	Now how is that related to Qt?	09:02
recalcati	so I see it open that device, but, when I move the mouse, I have continuous error	09:02
recalcati	somebody told to use tslib with module raw input, but I'm not able to understand if qt is using tslib really, how to increase the verbosity of qt?	09:03
mikhas	you are doing something completely wrong I think	09:04
mikhas	qt widgets provide all the necessary mouse event handlers you need	09:04
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recalcati	it is sure, but, I use normally qt with LinuxTp hanldler, and is good, instead from usb mouse I'm not able to make it working	09:05
recalcati	mikhas: it is not qt-x11 , it is qt on fb	09:05
mikhas	ah	09:06
mikhas	well then I have no idea =)	09:06
recalcati	but I wrote the input event hanlder for qt on fb for touchscreen events (input event), maybe qt on fb and usb mouse is not a common solution	09:07
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adeus	sdas	09:17
adeus	lag	09:17
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lamojola	How likely is Maemo5 looking for N800?	09:31
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dmj7261	not at all	09:32
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lamojola	So it's Mer?	09:32
dmj7261	Maemo 5 has a lot of features that simply can't work on the n800	09:32
lamojola	:)	09:32
lamojola	funny	09:32
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dmj7261	Mer will work on n800	09:32
lamojola	ok	09:32
lamojola	Does Mer have an SDK?	09:32
dmj7261	The plan is for Maemo 5 features that will work on n8x0 to be backported	09:33
Termana	lamojola, don't diss mer by talking down on it. it's bringing maemo 5 to older devices and eventually maemo 6 as well	09:33
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dmj7261	I don't know. I don't even have an nxx0.	09:33
zchydem_work	recalcati: I guess you can use tslib for getting touchscreen events for Qt/fb?	09:33
thomastim	juego de boxeo online http://www.kobox.org/kobox-fande-Nourine.html	09:33
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lamojola	I'm not dissing Maemo5. It's Nokia that I'm laughing at. Seems they've had a funny way about doing business, using the community, etc.	09:34
lamojola	or Mer	09:34
lamojola	Not dissing Mer	09:34
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L0cutus	re	09:35
lamojola	Serious question here. Is the CPU from N800 so much different from the proposed N900 that the kernel won't run?	09:35
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luke-jr	lamojola: proposed N900?	09:38
lamojola	OK N900 sorry	09:38
luke-jr	you mean N800 kernel on N900 or N900 kernel on N800?	09:38
luke-jr	...	09:39
lamojola	luke-jr, As an x86 machine, I can reasonably compile the same kernel from a more advanced CPU as long as it stay 32bit, etc.	09:39
recalcati	zchydem_work: I'm trying , but I'm not able to verify if I'm using really tslib, how to investigate?	09:39
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luke-jr	lamojola: not really.	09:40
luke-jr	lamojola: if you compile your kernel for Pentium, it won't boot on a standard i586	09:40
recalcati	I have changed /etc/ts.conf as explained in http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.6-snapshot/qt-embedded-pointer.html	09:40
luke-jr	N800 is ARMv6 architecture (think i586); N900 is ARMv7 (think i686)	09:40
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dmj7261	Does anyone know of a way to make scratchbox use opengl es 2.0?	09:40
luke-jr	so the N800 kernel will be happy with the N900 CPU, but not vice-versa	09:40
recalcati	N900 is ARMv7 , not i686	09:41
luke-jr	the bigger problem you will hit is hardware components	09:41
recalcati	but is powerful, more more than N800	09:41
luke-jr	the N900 kernel will not include support for N8x0 hardware, nor vice-versa	09:41
recalcati	zchydem_work: I have changed /etc/ts.conf as explained in http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.6-snapshot/qt-embedded-pointer.html	09:41
luke-jr	all that said, I'm not aware of any reason to run N8x0 kernel on N900 nor the N900 kernel on N8x0	09:41
luke-jr	it's not like they're significantly different in terms of what they provide userland	09:42
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lamojola	luke-jr, I see, yet given that, Nokia should be able to provide a new Maemo OS for each older product with a recompile for the specific target architecture. I realize they won't, but I'm asking just the same--seeing if it's physically possible.	09:43
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GeneralAntilles	lamojola, N800 support is not included in current kernel builds. :)	09:45
lamojola	Side question here, what proprietary binaries are left still, and do they have plans to rid those and replace them with opensource?	09:45
GeneralAntilles	Hardware support would need to be ported.	09:45
luke-jr	lamojola: the userland differs too much	09:45
GeneralAntilles	lamojola, do you believe Nokia would choose not to provide Maemo 5 for OMAP2 devices if it were easy? :)	09:45
GeneralAntilles	lamojola, it's a non-trivial endeavor, unfortunately.	09:45
luke-jr	lamojola: afaik, N900 relies on more proprietary blobs than N810 does.	09:45
GeneralAntilles	Largely due to the hardware differences between the two platforms.	09:46
GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, not true.	09:46
luke-jr	lamojola: supposedly Nokia is getting 3D acceleration drivers for N8x0 for Mer to use	09:46
GeneralAntilles	lamojola, what you want to look at is Mer.	09:46
luke-jr	GeneralAntilles: no? I count 2 blobs requires for N810	09:46
GeneralAntilles	~mer.	09:46
infobot	methinks mer is http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer, or on #mer	09:46
GeneralAntilles	~mer	09:46
infobot	it has been said that mer is http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer, or on #mer	09:46
luke-jr	required*	09:46
luke-jr	GeneralAntilles: N900 has what? battery charger and phone stack at least.	09:47
luke-jr	I know there were more	09:47
GeneralAntilles	Cellular stack isn't a blob.	09:47
lamojola	GeneralAntilles, I foresee Nokia taking off with each new hardware platform, potentially being a predator to a loyal programming community having to buy a new Nokia gadget each time.	09:47
GeneralAntilles	The modem is a blackbox.	09:47
GeneralAntilles	lamojola, then you're clueless. :)	09:48
lamojola	GeneralAntilles, enlighten me.	09:48
luke-jr	GeneralAntilles: everything phone-related on the main CPU is open?	09:48
GeneralAntilles	Nokia's putting a lot of effort into helping Mer.	09:48
GeneralAntilles	Which is going to be the upgrade path for existing device owners.	09:48
luke-jr	lamojola: that's about right, to some degree.	09:48
luke-jr	GeneralAntilles: Nokia began refusing to fix N810 bugs about a year ago at least	09:49
GeneralAntilles	The simple reality is that supporting current owners with an official upgrade isn't economically feasible.	09:49
GeneralAntilles	Maemo is still a young platform without a lot of manpower behind it.	09:49
luke-jr	the simple reality is that Nokia's blobs prevent us current owners from fixing their bugs	09:49
recalcati	GeneralAntilles: I remember some eula I had to accept when installing sdk on my pc, but I don't know what are about	09:49
GeneralAntilles	So supporting a lot of legacy hardware simply isn't a realistic option.	09:49
GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, "Nokia's" blobs? :)	09:50
GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, Nokia doesn't own the blobs.	09:50
lamojola	GeneralAntilles, I'd say the Maemo community built this end of Nokia, so I don't see how you give them credit. Yes, of course they'll seed some resourcing, like seeding capital. Again, I'm curious, just trying to have a discussion with you folks, but I'm skeptical about this future trend of product "leap frogging".	09:50
GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, you want them opened, you talk to TI.	09:50
luke-jr	GeneralAntilles: I have no pull with TI, I bought the hardware from Nokia.	09:50
GeneralAntilles	lamojola, how long have you been a member of this community?	09:50
GeneralAntilles	I've been here since very nearly the beginning, and I can tell you that the level of commitment Nokia has shown for this community is quite simply unprecedented in the history of mobile devices.	09:51
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luke-jr	GeneralAntilles: you know, I have to agree with that.	09:52
luke-jr	I haven't seen any other vendor do as much as Nokia has.	09:52
dmj7261	How so? Can you give a newcomer examples of this commitment?	09:52
luke-jr	but it's still insufficient	09:52
luke-jr	dmj7261: latest example is the 3D accel for N8x0	09:53
GeneralAntilles	Yes, there are a lot of things they've done wrong and, no, they're not perfect. I'm usually right out in front of the shouting crowd when they make a misstep, but you have to give credit where credit is due.	09:53
dmj7261	es 2.0 accel?	09:53
lamojola	GeneralAntilles, I don't remember when I registered with Maemo, but I figure I've owned a 770 since the beginning, so how long is that? Besides, I wouldn't credit duration with any analysis, clever or not. I'm just taking a look, and as luke-jr said, we have no pull with TI. Nokia has a choice indeed when going to the draft. They can choose to put opensource as much as my PC runs 100% opensource.	09:53
luke-jr	dmj7261: don't know if it's 2.0. whatever the chip supports	09:53
dmj7261	2.0 would be awesome: I'm making a forum topic right now about 3D engine candidates.	09:53
luke-jr	I never understood the point of the 770. The Zaurus had better hardware years earlier.	09:54
GeneralAntilles	dmj7261, codewise? Getting the STLC45xx specs for the open WiFi driver on N8x0, getting 3D drivers for N8x0, open sourcing many of their own components, and relicensing others for redistribution.	09:54
lamojola	GeneralAntilles, however mobile devices are quite new. Nokia was one of the first with such thrust, but history doesn't exist much in this arena. It's too new and with too few competitors.	09:54
GeneralAntilles	lamojola, the mobile device market doesn't even begin to compare with the PC market. :)	09:54
dmj7261	You don't have as much opportunity for DIY frankenmobiles	09:55
* dmj7261 is using a fairly beefy frankenputer.		09:55
GeneralAntilles	dmj7261, community wise, two paid-for Maemo Summits, with 100s of people sponsored to attend, several other smaller meetups with more sponsorships	09:55
GeneralAntilles	Loaner devices for community people	09:55
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GeneralAntilles	Discount programs for every device release.	09:56
GeneralAntilles	Financing maemo.org and its 6 paid staff members	09:56
GeneralAntilles	Employing additional community-focused positions @ Nokia.	09:56
GeneralAntilles	dmj7261, oh, and you know TI's recent big moves towards open source?	09:57
GeneralAntilles	With OMAP3 especially?	09:57
lamojola	GeneralAntilles, I'm not sure what you meant with your last statement to me. Compare what?	09:57
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GeneralAntilles	lamojola, you can't bring up the PC market as an argument for why you think mobile devices should be just as open.	09:57
GeneralAntilles	lamojola, the markets simply don't compare.	09:57
luke-jr	GeneralAntilles: meetups and loaners do nothing for those of us left out, so.. bad examples :p	09:57
dmj7261	TI's moves to open source?	09:57
GeneralAntilles	lamojola, the mobile market is lightyears ahead of where it was just 5 years ago.	09:58
luke-jr	discount programs based on flawed criteria leaves a bad taste, too	09:58
GeneralAntilles	(In a large part thanks to Nokia's efforts, in fact)	09:58
GeneralAntilles	dmj7261, OMAP35x, Beagle Board, etc.	09:58
GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, :shrug:	09:58
dmj7261	5 years ago not one mobile could pass my "Is it like my desktop" criteria	09:58
GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, you had months of time to code up a karma plug-in for IRC.	09:58
GeneralAntilles	dmj7261, TI's worlds more open source friendly now than they were when Nokia used the OMAP1 in the 770.	09:59
dmj7261	That's good.	09:59
GeneralAntilles	This is in a BIG way thanks to Nokia's efforts.	09:59
mikhas	anyone wants some popcorn? I am enjoying this read.	09:59
GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, don't bring your spitefulness in here, it's not productive.	09:59
GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, you could've applied to attend the Summit.	10:00
lamojola	GeneralAntilles, Again, new, but then again IBM's BIOS was new too till some hacks cracked it, and we have clones, more open. Everything evolves. As long as hardware manufactures continue to be in bed with closed-source hardware components our drive becomes that much more cumbersome and delayed at progress.	10:00
GeneralAntilles	lamojola, Nokia's pushing hard to get vendors to be more open.	10:00
GeneralAntilles	lamojola, but it's not a process that happens over night.	10:00
luke-jr	GeneralAntilles: hey, I probably wouldn't be getting one with or without a discount. just pointing out flaws in those arguments :P	10:00
mikhas	lamojola, I dont think I ever had a truly open PC, whatever that is.	10:00
luke-jr	GeneralAntilles: and even if everything was paid, I could not have gone to any Summit	10:01
GeneralAntilles	lamojola, nor is it a process served well by hardline zealotism.	10:01
GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, what flaws?	10:01
GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, you think giving out 300 devices at the Summit is not a valid argument to show Nokia supports the community?	10:01
luke-jr	1. meetups only benefit a small portion of the community	10:01
Xisdibik	GeneralAntilles: they needed to give 301. 300 at summit 1 in the mail to me ;)	10:01
GeneralAntilles	lamojola, the fact is that Nokia's been working incredibly hard to push your goals with vendors	10:01
luke-jr	2. criteria-based discounts have an inverse effect when the criteria is bad	10:02
GeneralAntilles	lamojola, so decrying them for their efforts is pretty low.	10:02
dmj7261	The N900 doesn't pass the 100% FOSS test. That said, the more they make FOSS, the more I'll be impressed.	10:02
lamojola	mikhas, Really? Most PC (not laptops) don't have a problem.	10:02
GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, so you think contributors to the Maemo community don't deserve discounts?	10:02
GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, 400 people is a pretty big chunk of the contributing portion of this community.	10:02
mikhas	lamojola, so you have an open BIOS, an open wifi card, open GPU? I am impressed, really.	10:02
luke-jr	GeneralAntilles: I think discount programs need to be done in a way that doesn't leave people out with a bad taste	10:03
dmj7261	Does it count as free if you don't know how free the BIOS is?	10:03
GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, and the productive efforts that have come out of the Summits are always impressive.	10:03
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GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, but you need to separate your spite out here, because it's currently making this discussion highly unproductive.	10:03
GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, everybody thinks they deserve things.	10:03
luke-jr	GeneralAntilles: again, this doesn't apply to me personally.	10:03
GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, you can never make everybody happy.	10:03
GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, it does.	10:03
luke-jr	I wouldn't buy one even if I had a discount.	10:03
luke-jr	GeneralAntilles: Freescale's developer programs seem much more reasonable IMO	10:04
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dmj7261	I would be much happier and coding happily for Maemo if Nokia gave me a developer discount and a prerelease unit. I haven't made any finished apps though, so I understand that they wouldn't.	10:04
GeneralAntilles	Anyway, whatever.	10:05
luke-jr	nobody can really complain with their methods	10:05
GeneralAntilles	I've said my piece, take it or leave it.	10:05
mikhas	the grass is much greener on the other side, eh?	10:05
GeneralAntilles	dmj7261, proven contributors always take precedence. :)	10:05
luke-jr	dmj7261: and? you want 2 N900s at discount? :P	10:05
dmj7261	Shall we compare Nokia's efforts to Apple's?	10:05
dmj7261	?	10:05
GeneralAntilles	dmj7261, just look at the stick rate for GSoC students to see why giving out free hardware like that doesn't work.	10:05
mikhas	yes, please	10:05
Termana	apple ftw fool	10:05
lamojola	GeneralAntilles, I'm not decrying. I'm observing. Hardware manufactures make choices. The Asus Eee isn't that much bigger than the 770/8x0, given the removal of the keyboard, ports, LCD, SSD, etc. Think about it.	10:06
Termana	lol j/k	10:06
mikhas	start, I get more popcorn	10:06
luke-jr	dmj7261: I think OpenMoko set the standard pretty high on openness? :p	10:06
GeneralAntilles	lamojola, think about what?	10:06
GeneralAntilles	lamojola, it's a vastly different hardware platform.	10:06
dmj7261	I'm a GSoC student.	10:06
Termana	get me some mikhas	10:06
GeneralAntilles	lamojola, fact is, the N900 is the MOST OPEN mainstream cellular device to date.	10:06
GeneralAntilles	lamojola, think about it.	10:06
luke-jr	GeneralAntilles: OpenMoko	10:06
lamojola	dmj7261, you mean http://www.coreboot.org/Welcome_to_coreboot	10:06
GeneralAntilles	MAINSTREAM	10:06
luke-jr	mainstream is irrelevant	10:06
GeneralAntilles	i.e., hardware and software that aren't useless.	10:07
GeneralAntilles	luke-jr, good troll.	10:07
GeneralAntilles	'night	10:07
Termana	isn't the droid argueably more open?	10:07
luke-jr	mainstream just means idiots on the street buy them	10:07
luke-jr	Termana: is it?	10:07
mikhas	and it means profit	10:07
dmj7261	Open source =/= open platform	10:07
dmj7261	and android has closed apps too.	10:07
luke-jr	mikhas: if you involve profit, then I want Vendor to pay me per hour for time I spend improving their device's usability :p	10:08
Termana	luke-jr, i could be wrong but i was under the impression android is totally open source	10:08
dmj7261	and likely closed drivers for each phone	10:08
luke-jr	Termana: yeah, way wrong	10:08
mikhas	sure, move to helsinki =p	10:08
dmj7261	not sure about the driver thing	10:08
luke-jr	Termana: but I don't know which of Android and Maemo is more open	10:08
Xisdibik	GeneralAntilles: goodnight :/	10:08
dmj7261	The totally open android versions would be equivalent to Mer.	10:08
luke-jr	Maemo is certainly more standards compliant (Qt, X11 compliant)	10:08
luke-jr	dmj7261: Mer isn't 100% open	10:09
dmj7261	Maemo wins hands down on open platform	10:09
dmj7261	what parts are closed?	10:09
luke-jr	Maemo isn't very open, relatively.	10:09
Termana	android sucks anyway, but i just thought it was more open. it certainly seems to be more mainstream than maemo	10:09
luke-jr	dmj7261: Mer requires closed blobs for anything Maemo has closed in areas of hardware support	10:09
dmj7261	so Mer just has closed drivers?	10:09
luke-jr	I think.	10:09
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Stskeeps	luke-jr: :slap: 100 percent open core, may have closed blobs (fw, battery daemons, etc) on some hw.	10:10
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dmj7261	No closed applications or essential libraries?	10:10
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luke-jr	Stskeeps: core is the driver layer, not DE.	10:10
luke-jr	dmj7261: afaik, none of those	10:10
* Termana slaps Stskeeps for the hell of it - yello		10:10
luke-jr	drivers are all I care about being open, really.	10:10
Stskeeps	core mer is everything non-hw specific :P	10:10
dmj7261	okay, then that's open in my book. My desktop uses Nvidia blobs	10:10
luke-jr	I can rewrite the software layer if need be	10:11
Xisdibik	someone highlight me so i can test something please	10:11
luke-jr	dmj7261: fail	10:11
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luke-jr	Xisdibik: no	10:11
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Xisdibik	luke-jr: thanks	10:11
dmj7261	I don't want to be stuck running metacity in vga mode	10:11
lamojola	GeneralAntilles, you asked how long I was in the Maemo community, but I'm just curious if you work for Nokia because it sounds like it. The point I made by comparing the Asus Eee to the 770/8x0 was in weight alone. Strip down an Asus Eee (early model), and one nearly has the same with probably more power.	10:11
luke-jr	dmj7261: vanilla Linux supports ATi and Intel graphics fine	10:12
dmj7261	If a manufacturer doesn't release the source for their drivers, I expect them to work damn well.	10:12
Termana	GA went to bed	10:12
Termana	i think	10:12
Xisdibik	he did as far as i know Termana	10:12
dmj7261	This computer was built before I was a Linux user...that and Intel needs better performance and ATI needs to step up their FOSS driver efforts.	10:13
lamojola	mikhas, I'm missing the reference to Helsinski above.	10:13
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Termana	lamojola lost his man	10:14
Termana	pages	10:14
dmj7261	If ATI produces a performance card with top-notch FOSS linux drivers, I'll switch.	10:14
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luke-jr	dmj7261: as opposed to nVidia who make NO efforts?	10:14
luke-jr	and require you to infringe on Linux copyrights and run blobs?	10:14
lamojola	dmj7261, I've been out of the gaming loop for a while, so ATI doesn't have FOSS for the high-end cards?	10:15
Termana	i guess no one likes jokes in the middle of a flame war	10:15
dmj7261	If I can reasonably use FOSS for a given task I will.	10:15
dmj7261	Their 3D support can lag by months in the FOSS drivers	10:15
luke-jr	I've been using ATi for about a decade with no problems.	10:15
sleipnir	at least there are some open docs for _some_ of their (ATI) cards	10:15
lamojola	Termana, I didn't feel a flame war. These are some serious concerns. I don't want to be a consumer puppet for a large corporation, going to the big-kiddie candy store everytime I want to code with my other friends.	10:16
GAN900	lamojola, I don't work for Nokia. :) I'm a community member and former community council member who served for a year.	10:16
Termana	luke-jr, not making your drivers open instead making them blobs doesn't violate any linux copyright	10:16
dmj7261	Like I said, if they release comparable FOSS drivers near release to Nvidia's, I'd love to go to ATI	10:17
GAN900	lamojola, if you want to support open source mobile devices, buy the N900. :)	10:17
Termana	luke-jr, i think you need to rephase what you said	10:17
lamojola	dmj7261, Do you know why it's months and not instant?	10:17
luke-jr	Termana: it does when they're kernel-level	10:17
GAN900	Then call Nokia Care and tell them why you bought thye N900.	10:17
luke-jr	Linux only has exceptions to the GPL for userland	10:17
dmj7261	It takes time for the FOSS people to understand the docs and implement drivers for them.	10:17
Termana	i don't think adding in a module is necessarily modifying it	10:18
Stskeeps	meh, at least the kernel drivers are full oss	10:18
Stskeeps	which is a huge step forward	10:18
Termana	modifying the kernel that is	10:18
luke-jr	Termana: Linux is a monolithic kernel. there is no such thing as kernel-land without being derived from Linux itself	10:18
dmj7261	On the bright side, if Nvidia ever does open source their linux drivers we can expect instant quadros for windows boxen.	10:18
luke-jr	Stskeeps: it makes them legal	10:18
luke-jr	they had to do that	10:19
Termana	luke-jr, so i guess what nokia has done is illegal as well?	10:19
Xisdibik	GAN900: werent you going to sleep? :P	10:19
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luke-jr	Termana: Nokia's drivers are in userland, at least with N900	10:19
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luke-jr	Termana: Linux clearly makes exceptions on userland interfaces	10:19
lamojola	GAN900, that's such a suggestive statement with no backing. How does N900 help the other older devices that are quickly becoming toxic waste with Nokia eager to fill the void with a shiny new one, N1000, etc.	10:20
GAN900	Xisdibik, got a text message from a drunk friend and checked XChat.	10:20
dmj7261	ATI has a golden opportunity here	10:20
GAN900	lamojola, we went over this earlier.	10:20
GAN900	Mer	10:20
* Xisdibik quickly goes and preorders the N1000		10:20
luke-jr	dmj7261: most people buy video cards every N years, not every N months.	10:20
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luke-jr	a few months lag for drivers is no big deal	10:20
lamojola	dmj7261, Sounds reasonable though, no?	10:21
dmj7261	I buy every n years as well	10:21
GAN900	Asking Stskeeps about Nokia and open source.	10:21
dmj7261	But when I buy it's the current generation	10:21
Stskeeps	GAN900: waking up with nausea and this conversation isn't helping	10:21
dmj7261	note not necessarily the top card, but the current generation	10:22
luke-jr	dmj7261: that's dumb, seeing as you can get better performance/$ going a few months back	10:22
Termana	luke-jr, you'd never own an iphone would you? lmfao	10:22
* RST38h moos at Stskeeps and GAN		10:22
dmj7261	The problem is that ATI can take up to a year to get proper FOSS drivers working.	10:22
luke-jr	Termana: I might, if I could be sure there were open drivers so I could just flash Gentoo on it	10:22
Stskeeps	Termana: luke-jr would probably never own any consumer mobile hardware that he would be happy with..	10:22
Xisdibik	Stskeeps: sorry to hear about your nausea :(	10:22
* dmj7261 wouldn't want an iturd either		10:22
GAN900	Stskeeps, hey, I'm pretty sure yo ass is paid to respond to every one of these discussions now. eg	10:22
* RST38h sighs. ATI. NVidia. Hehe.		10:22
lamojola	GAN900, wasn't here, I suppose.	10:23
Termana	Stskeeps, touche lol	10:23
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luke-jr	iPhone might have a better chance of being 100% free than N810	10:23
dmj7261	I've mostly had good experiences with intel (Ubuntu 9.04 excepted)	10:23
Stskeeps	GAN900: actually no, but i did forget to get "no licensing discussions with community" in my contract	10:23
Stskeeps	:P	10:23
Termana	lol	10:23
RST38h	Go try using IGD, punks. The drivers are open sourced	10:24
RST38h	So you will be fully OSS compliant.	10:24
keesj	luke-jr: free of free software	10:24
luke-jr	RST38h: GMA 500 ?	10:24
luke-jr	RST38h: where?	10:24
dmj7261	Intel drivers are nice on the FOSS front.	10:24
RST38h	My laptop :)	10:24
luke-jr	RST38h: you have 100% open GMA 500 drivers?	10:24
dmj7261	...The only problem is graphics performance.	10:24
RST38h	Of course, it does not perform, but that is not a problem for a true OSS zealot, is it?	10:24
luke-jr	RST38h: the community wants to talk to you.	10:25
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dmj7261	They even are starting to release FOSS drivers months ahead of release of the hardware.	10:25
luke-jr	at least, get the code from you	10:25
RST38h	"You" as in what?	10:25
luke-jr	RST38h: you, who claims to have GMA 500 open drivers	10:25
Termana	luke-jr is wagging his tail for these gma foss drivers	10:25
RST38h	I claim to have open drivers for the chipset in my laptop	10:25
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Termana	give a dog a bone RST38h	10:25
dmj7261	SO either ATI with prompt, high quality FOSS drivers or powerful intel chips would be ideal.	10:25
luke-jr	Termana: GMA 500 is rebranded PowerVR SGX, so would basically mean open 3D for N900	10:26
dmj7261	Either that or Nvidia going GPL.	10:26
RST38h	Which is probably G45	10:26
RST38h	So, if you are willing to use G45, there are open drivers	10:26
dmj7261	...that's the one exception to the intel has good FOSS drivers	10:26
Form0	there was interesting interview with some nvidia guy explaining why it would be difficult for them to go open source.	10:27
* suihkulokki heads to fetch popcorn		10:27
dmj7261	some dell minis ran afould of that	10:27
luke-jr	Form0: you mean making up BS excuses	10:27
luke-jr	suihkulokki: good idea	10:27
dmj7261	I tire of this conversation.	10:27
RST38h	If you want to use graphics that performs, suck it up and use whatever drivers manufacturer is kind enough to release upon you =)	10:27
Form0	well yea, of course it's still an excuse, but still :)	10:27
dmj7261	reason: nvidia drivers on windows and linux share 90 percent of their code	10:27
thux	good conversation for a change	10:27
Stskeeps	GAN900: my tactic is really showing openness by doing instead of arguing constantly :P	10:28
Form0	And ATI has really stepped up on the linux drivers, seem to get them out better in line with windows	10:28
Form0	It might get a blow now that AMD lost their main linux manager	10:28
Termana	luke-jr, don't you think your all-FOSS atitude is part of the reason for linux not being popular on the desktop?	10:28
thux	must say luke-jr seems to be right	10:28
dmj7261	My strategy is to favor FOSS wherever possible.	10:28
luke-jr	Termana: no. once you start including proprietary blobs, it's no longer Linux, and defeats the entire point of it.	10:29
* RST38h strategy is to use whatever performs, does not break, and is cheaper		10:29
luke-jr	might as well run Windows if you're going to go non-free.	10:29
Form0	I'm not seeing why everything has to be free..	10:29
dmj7261	It's not the only variable, but two things being within reasonable, the most open one wins.	10:29
Form0	You trying to trample developers into second class citizens?	10:29
sleipnir	Termana: where is your argument. giving up ones beliefs for what... popularity?	10:29
* RST38h is kinda surprised why somebody would have a different strategy		10:29
dmj7261	Free as virtue, not as requirement.	10:29
Termana	Form0, the truth is luke-jr is RMS in disguise	10:30
Form0	hehe	10:30
luke-jr	Termana: RMS tolerates closed source more than me	10:30
dmj7261	That's a scary statement	10:30
* RST38h takes the kettle and the Safeway bag from luke-jr		10:30
luke-jr	RMS is ok with closed hardware	10:30
dmj7261	I've seen RMS in shouting matches over Free.	10:30
Termana	sleipnir, no one says you have to give up beliefs - its about reasonable expectations	10:30
luke-jr	I merely tolerate it :p	10:30
dmj7261	luke-jr will make his own Sparc chips in his basement.	10:31
sleipnir	Termana: then we agree, sometimes you have to live with what you get, but you should never give up pushing that state forward	10:31
luke-jr	haha	10:31
Form0	I don't think closed source is such a baddie.. software patents on the other hand ><	10:31
dmj7261	I'm not looking at the n900 because it's totally open, but because it's the most open and trending in a good direction.	10:32
suihkulokki	I think luke-jrs "iphone has better chances to 100% free software than n8x0" is quite telling	10:32
dmj7261	Don't get me going on software patents.	10:32
luke-jr	suihkulokki: iPhone is s3c6410 SoC, which has completely open documentation for even 3D	10:32
RST38h	RMS is not ok with vehicle license tags, he says they are invading privacy.	10:32
suihkulokki	people will prefer shiny over free, even so far as reverse engineering the shiny to be free	10:33
sleipnir	dmj7261: it's not the most open! but it is the (probably) most open _working_ phone ;-)	10:33
RST38h	So, do you REALLY want to listen to whatever RMS says?	10:33
Termana	sleipnir, we are in agreement. however i don't think you'll find luke-jr agreeing to our middle ground	10:33
sleipnir	hehe	10:33
dmj7261	I wasn't counting mythical devices.	10:33
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sleipnir	dmj7261: what's mythical about the freerunner???	10:33
* RST38h sighs and goes back to internal bugtracker		10:33
Form0	Having totally open phones might come into snags with authorities too	10:33
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dmj7261	...it's not working and development of the freerunner devices has stalled.	10:34
luke-jr	Termana: your "middle ground" is merely surrender to me. the "middle ground" of an already "middle ground"	10:34
luke-jr	the true middle ground lies in closed hardware+firmware, and open software	10:34
RST38h	<yawn>	10:34
Form0	botnets of N900s would surely cause mayhem with the phone networks	10:34
sleipnir	as i said, n900 is probably the most open _working_ phone (have non yet, so i don't know)	10:34
luke-jr	dmj7261: actually, Freerunner software development is still ongoing in the community and now works last I heard	10:34
RST38h	luke-jr: Sorry, but have you ever developed any drivers or other kernel level stuff?	10:34
suihkulokki	intel has free drivers but their hardwares isn't shiny, so people head to nvidia anyway (and choose to whine them not being free)	10:35
dmj7261	Can I buy a new Freerunner?	10:35
luke-jr	RST38h: I got Linux to boot on my cable modem, does that count?	10:35
RST38h	luke-jr: No	10:35
dmj7261	Will better Freerunners be developed?	10:35
luke-jr	dmj7261: yes, $250 direct from OpenMoko	10:35
RST38h	luke-jr: So, no developer?	10:35
Termana	luke-jr, i think you'll find that developers have to eat too and you'll never find your version of middle groun	10:35
luke-jr	dmj7261: OpenMoko cancelled their latest phone project for a lame Wikipedia reader	10:35
dmj7261	How does the Freerunner compare to the n900?	10:35
Termana	ground*	10:35
luke-jr	RST38h: I had to write code to get it to boot ;)	10:36
dmj7261	...I knew that...and it was my point.	10:36
Stskeeps	dmj7261: i wanted to kiss my n900, my freerunner i wanted to throw out the window..	10:36
Stskeeps	:P	10:36
RST38h	luke-jr: That is not what I asked about though	10:36
luke-jr	Termana: I am a developer. I know I have to eat.	10:36
luke-jr	Termana: open source has nothing to do with gratis.	10:36
sleipnir	dmj7261: you can buy the freerunner still, software development is ongoing... future devices... now it becomes difficult :-)	10:36
RST38h	luke-jr: So, you have never developed any device drivers?	10:36
dmj7261	...there's only so much you can improve with software	10:36
luke-jr	RST38h: not that I can think of	10:36
sleipnir	dmj7261: i fully agree	10:36
RST38h	That explains why you think that you can have "open" software with "closed" hardware	10:36
dmj7261	I haven't developed any actually useful drivers.	10:37
luke-jr	Stskeeps: I'd take the Freerunner, but the GSM problem is unsolvable :/	10:37
dmj7261	If OpenMoko looked healthy and competitive, I would be over there right now.	10:37
luke-jr	RST38h: by closed hardware, I mean its internal workings, not its specifications	10:37
dmj7261	...but Maemo is far more competitive right now.	10:37
sleipnir	the most striking problem of the freerunner is the graphic performance and the battery life	10:37
RST38h	So, you would like open hardware as well?	10:37
luke-jr	dmj7261: check out their community OS... I hear it works with that now	10:37
RST38h	Well, never gonna happen	10:37
dmj7261	that = ?	10:38
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luke-jr	sleipnir: they fixed/worked around the graphics issue	10:38
RST38h	Because there is 1.5 billion Chinese	10:38
sleipnir	luke-jr: no they can't. the problem is in hardware aka the small memory bus	10:38
sleipnir	all you can do is to switch to QVGA to get a reasonable performance	10:38
luke-jr	sleipnir: I don't know what the trick was.	10:39
dmj7261	Nokia does deserve competition on the open platform front.	10:39
dmj7261	It would make them better.	10:39
luke-jr	sleipnir: but there was talk earlier yesterday about good framerate or such	10:39
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* sleipnir is checking the mailinglist as he owns a FR		10:39
dmj7261	anyway: Are there any good 3D graphics engines ported to maemo?	10:39
luke-jr	sleipnir: it was on IRC	10:40
luke-jr	bleeding edge stuff	10:40
sleipnir	luke-jr: there is also a mail on the devel list	10:40
Ceron^	unreal 3 engine ported to maemo!	10:40
* sleipnir is reading... sounds good		10:40
Ceron^	also cryengine 2 will be ported to maemo	10:41
luke-jr	sleipnir: ah	10:41
Stskeeps	lamojola: re recompile for target - sadly not that easy. we had to seperate out a low of HW specific code. yes, Mer has a SDK. you can develop straight on your x86 -or- ARM device -or- cross-compile from x86 to ARM with OBS.. and yes, product leap frogging has been bad but they are getting better at taking input now with Fremantle/Harmattan.. open replacements are always good when there's a huge amount of people willing to do it and h	10:42
Stskeeps	... time.. but there isn't in this community.. there is both Mer and community SSU efforts for Nokia N8x0, and even gentoo if you swing that way :P	10:42
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sleipnir	Stskeeps: don't make fun of gentoo ;-P	10:43
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luke-jr	Stskeeps: wanna convince someone to send me a N900 so I get Gentoo working on it?	10:44
Stskeeps	luke-jr: i have to pay 250 eur like every other developer to get a n900 of my own :P	10:44
Stskeeps	developer that has karma, that is	10:44
luke-jr	oh well	10:45
luke-jr	you'd need to get them to buy me service too cuz I ain't paying ripoff GSM US prices :p	10:45
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Stskeeps	luke-jr: but add yourself to the queue for loaner devices	10:45
dmj7261	I think it would be good to have tools to write 3D games other than straight OGL ES 2	10:45
sleipnir	Stskeeps: where can you do that?	10:45
luke-jr	Stskeeps: I think I did, but I don't care enough to check :p	10:46
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* Stskeeps blinks at a recent change to Mer/Nokia Wishlist		10:46
Stskeeps	"possibility to install to Nokia E90 Communicator (since end of life cycle)"	10:47
luke-jr	lol	10:47
RST38h	yeek	10:47
* lbt has no idea about E90 internals...		10:48
Stskeeps	it does sound like a sweet mer target but still .. :P	10:48
* luke-jr imagines it was added by Stskeeps's new boss... ;)		10:48
lbt	sounds 'plain' to me ;)	10:48
lbt	which is no bad thing	10:49
Stskeeps	omap2420, 128mb ram ..	10:49
luke-jr	?	10:50
Jaffa	Morning, all	10:50
Stskeeps	e90, luke-jr	10:50
Stskeeps	morning jaffa	10:50
lbt	hi Jaffa	10:50
luke-jr	Stskeeps: so it's a N8x0?	10:50
Stskeeps	luke-jr: nah, this one has an actual camera	10:50
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lbt	phone HW would be hard to access	10:52
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luke-jr	lbt: Stskeeps is an employee now :p	10:52
lbt	E90 non-Communicator	10:52
Stskeeps	luke-jr: of maemo.org yeah	10:52
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luke-jr	<.<	10:53
luke-jr	Stskeeps: how comes 3D and GPS?	10:53
iomari	greetings, is it possible to connect a usb2ehternet device on the nokia n900?	10:53
Stskeeps	iomari: no USB OTG though some speculate usb host is possible	10:53
Stskeeps	luke-jr: 3d? good, TI finally answered to some	10:53
Stskeeps	luke-jr: i'm planning on looking on the GPS stuff in december	10:54
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* RST38h meaningfully contributed to the religious tmo thread: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=377690&postcount=31		10:54
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dmj726	http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=377686#post377686	10:56
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dmj726	I started the above thread to encourage discussion of porting a graphics engine to maemo!	10:58
luke-jr	dmj726: why not just use GLES directly? -.-;;	10:58
RST38h	dmj726: So, what is the problem? Download the source code and start coding!	10:58
dmj726	GLES is a very low level library (reinventing the wheel issue)	10:59
luke-jr	dmj726: the one 3D game I develop for is raw OpenGL	11:00
recalcati	iomari: normally linux easily provide it, check beagleboard, but check also kernel possibilities is maemo	11:00
iomari	recalcati: ok thanks.	11:00
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alterego	I like the idea of porting the ogre engine, it's a really nice piece of software.	11:00
alterego	Though, it's quite a large system.	11:00
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dmj726	I'm not sure this is really a problem, but getting others involved is a good thing, particularly if they have more 3D graphics experience than me.	11:01
alterego	Does it support ES?	11:01
dmj726	I think the ES 2.0 is the issue right now with OGRE	11:01
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RST38h	dmj726: This is not how you involve others. You involve others by doing something yourself	11:01
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alterego	Apparently it has ES1.0/1.1 support but not 2.0	11:02
dmj726	yeah...no clue how much effort would be required to add 2.0 support	11:03
dmj726	the iphone folks haven't managed that yet	11:03
alterego	I think Horde has 2.0 support.	11:03
dmj726	Horde might be a good candidate.	11:03
dmj726	I heard that someone was planning some porting work, but that was a year ago.	11:04
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hrw	hi	11:05
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alterego	I like the fact that in the 'maemo.org Applications/Extras/" thread everyone is still refering to it as "maemo.org Extras" or "Extras". So even with the name change, are we all still going to call it "extras"?	11:15
alterego	This is going to get quite confusing I think.	11:16
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hrw	repo is extras anyway	11:16
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alterego	I think "maemo.org Applications" is a good idea really, because we can juust refer to it as community applications or "maemo.org Applications" extras does sound a bit bolt-on-ish to me.	11:17
iomari	recalcati: Stskeeps I'm just readin up on usb otg. Does this mean I can connect a flash or external usb drive to the n900?	11:17
alterego	iomari, the N900 does not have host mode capability	11:18
alterego	This is because (I believe) the charging over USB conflicts with host mode capability, so the hardware is not capable of doing it.	11:18
alterego	Unlike the N8XX devices.	11:18
iomari	alterego: damn.thanks. how about a usb bridge? Does that require ost mode?	11:18
Stskeeps	iomari: please don't assume that this is possible though. speculation :P	11:18
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alterego	I don't know what a "USB Bridge" is :)	11:19
iomari	alterego: it's like a usb cross cable.	11:19
alterego	I think SDIO hacks are the only hardware extensibility we have.	11:19
* luke-jr speculates Stskeeps.		11:20
alterego	No, I doubt that'd work.	11:20
iomari	damn again :-)	11:20
iomari	i guess I'm stuck with wifi	11:20
hrw	or bt	11:20
hrw	or usbdevicenet	11:20
iomari	bt? too slow.	11:21
luke-jr	or GSM	11:21
iomari	what the hell is usbdevicenet	11:21
luke-jr	or webcam/LCD	11:21
hrw	iomari: you connect n900 to desktop and use usb ethernet emulation	11:21
hrw	instead of usb mass storage	11:21
iomari	hrw: connect with wifi?	11:22
hrw	no	11:22
hrw	usb cable	11:22
luke-jr	USB Bridge would work if the N900 has client end	11:22
luke-jr	:p	11:22
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iomari	hrw: that's what i meant.that will suffice.	11:22
iomari	luke-jr: that's even better.thanks	11:22
alterego	I don't see what that solves though, it's not going to allow you to connect it to an external drive.	11:26
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recalcati	iomari: usb otg means that is you use normal small usb connector the N900 works as an usb gadget, instead if you use mini-A to mini-B usb connector it wokrs as an usb host. Then, if you connect usb to lan interface and have the driver for it , it will work	11:26
*** florian_kc is now known as florian		11:27
iomari	recalcati: interesting. thanks	11:27
hrw	recalcati: sure, thats how OTG works. but n900 usb port is not OTG	11:27
hrw	unless something changed in last days	11:27
alterego	I think it's safe to say nothing has changed, because of the power-over-usb charging suppport.	11:28
alterego	Which has not dissapeared :P	11:28
dmj726	who needs to actually charge the device?	11:28
alterego	:)	11:29
hrw	recalcati: so remember: n8x0 has OTG, n900 lacks OTG and only have client usb ;(	11:29
dmj726	just remove the phone's battery and use an external charger!	11:29
alterego	I don't, but then, I don't have a "device" :P	11:29
alterego	What's the status on N8XX power vr driver support?	11:29
recalcati	hrw: ok	11:29
recalcati	hrw: but I hope it will have	11:29
dmj726	It will automatically support OpenGL 3.2.	11:30
alterego	Eh?	11:30
luke-jr	and OpenVR 5	11:30
luke-jr	8)	11:30
Stskeeps	alterego: TI is responsive	11:30
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alterego	Stskeeps: are they available yet?	11:31
luke-jr	sts go ping	11:31
luke-jr	TI go pong	11:31
luke-jr	repeat	11:31
Stskeeps	alterego: not yet	11:31
Stskeeps	will be eventually	11:31
luke-jr	TEH CHIP MONK STRIKES AGAIN	11:32
alterego	grumble grumble :P	11:32
alterego	If I'm not getting an N900 any time soon, it'd be nice to flesh out some of my ideas on the N810 with 3D acceleration. :)	11:32
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alterego	I guess I should learn Qt then, if that's the way things are going :(	11:34
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dmj726	alterego: are you considering getting an n900 and it's the whole shipping thing or are you planning on sticking with n8x0?	11:34
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alterego	I'm considering getting one, but when it comes down in price. I didn't get accepted for the device programme and 500 GBP is just too steep.	11:35
dmj726	I'm on the other side of the pond and need a new phone	11:35
alterego	I'ver calculated I can sell my old mobile handsets for half the price, so I'd in theory reclaim some of the expense, but still ...	11:35
dmj726	Current phone only makes one way phone calls.	11:36
alterego	Heh	11:36
dmj726	I can hear anyone I call.	11:36
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alterego	Hah, nice.	11:36
alterego	Well, I've got an N96 and an N95 8G	11:36
alterego	I can sell both of those for 250 GBP	11:36
dmj726	Usually, it's "Hello? Hello?..." click	11:36
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dmj726	I haven't had a Nokia since snake was a new thing for them.	11:37
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dmj726	Which was before AT&T became Cingular became AT&T	11:38
* rmrfchik is confused... n900 or Androiud based?		11:40
alterego	Oh, I'd never get an Android,	11:40
alterego	The Nokia Maemo platform is a lot more flexible.	11:40
tigert	rmrfchik: you expect an objective answer here? :)	11:40
alterego	I think from a user's perspective though, Android is a powerful contender.	11:40
Termana	if you want sexy get the motorola droid if you want functional and part sexy go n900	11:40
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dmj726	Droid has more apps, n900 has the potential for better apps	11:41
rmrfchik	tigert: sure no!	11:41
dmj726	n900 has a better camera	11:41
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rmrfchik	but will maemo6 will run on n900?	11:42
dmj726	maybe	11:42
rmrfchik	maemo5 is dead on born, it's GTK based	11:42
dmj726	Maemo 5 supports Qt	11:42
tigert	maemo5 works fine on n900	11:42
Termana	since the droid is sexier, get one if you want to look like a regular consumer. you will be bowed to, like iphone users are	11:42
tigert	its like not buying a 2009 car because there will be the 2010 model	11:43
rmrfchik	dmj726: i'm not talking about "supporting". I'm talking about resource usage	11:43
tigert	the 2009 model wont stop working on dec 31	11:43
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dmj726	I don't get the GTK comment?	11:43
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Termana	rmrfchik, i bet you build your own pcs too right? probably a gamer?	11:44
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alterego	I think that was me saying I'm going to have to get familiar with Qt as this seems to be the way things are heading.	11:44
rmrfchik	Termana: you win	11:44
dmj726	n900 is definitely good for the DIY crowd	11:44
Termana	rmrfchik, as soon as you said resource usage i knew	11:45
rmrfchik	Termana: it's other my side which crys for resources.	11:45
Termana	for anyone that doesn't know rmrfchik is complaining about the fact maemo 5 will have to load the qt libraries on top of the gtk ones. like when your using gnome and want to use a kde app	11:46
dmj726	ah	11:46
rmrfchik	to have 2 GUI libs loaded (ok, mmaped) on the small device isn't good for speed	11:46
dmj726	android will have to run apps in the java sandbox	11:47
rmrfchik	Termana: it doesn't matter on desktop, right? it does matter on small device ;)	11:47
dmj726	...that's one of the bigger things that annoys me about android.	11:47
rmrfchik	agree	11:47
dmj726	rmrfchik: I can see that point...more stuff gets pushed to the virtual memory in the case of heavy multitasking	11:48
Termana	rmrfchik, i'm not arguing where it matters - i was just making sure everyone knew what you were talking about :P	11:48
rmrfchik	Termana: stop reading my mind! get out of my head!	11:48
dmj726	Perhaps someone can test the effects of this?	11:48
alterego	Most applicatons, right now, are Gtk+ based, I expect people will be using Qt on N900 in preparation for maemo6	11:48
Termana	oops sorry bout that gets out of rmrfchik's head	11:49
alterego	So, maybe mid-next year, it'll be 50/50 and by the end of next year it'll be 90% Qt :P	11:49
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dmj726	and then we all get an upgrade on our n900s to maemo 6 :P	11:50
alterego	So expect your device to be slowest in August next year :)	11:50
Termana	lol people will wonder why their devices are getting slower over time	11:50
alterego	Well, now we have an answer :P	11:51
rmrfchik	ram cells becomes more dirty	11:51
alterego	Heh	11:51
dmj726	No they won't...not the people who are used to windoz at least.	11:51
dmj726	...it's the linux registry, obviously	11:51
alterego	I think the speed decrease will be marginal.	11:51
dmj726	You'll only see a decrease if you're using swap	11:52
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Myrtti	I suggest you stick to http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dialog.jpg?uselang=en	11:52
Myrtti	no slowing during lifespam	11:52
Myrtti	no memory problem	11:52
Myrtti	s	11:52
Myrtti	works a charm.	11:53
dmj726	makes for a great wii peripheral!	11:53
alterego	Oh, has anyone ported libwiicd?	11:55
alterego	Or whatever it's called :)	11:55
alterego	libcwwd	11:55
alterego	libcwiid ..	11:55
alterego	I think I'll do it now.	11:55
dmj726	wiimote works on n900	11:55
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alterego	Oh, nice.	11:56
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Termana	Myrtti, fail - there is a memory problem. the problem is it has none. lol	11:56
dmj726	haven't you seen the video of tv out + snes emulator + wiimotes?	11:56
dmj726	on n900	11:56
alterego	Nope :P	11:56
dmj726	google it	11:56
alterego	Teeheehee	11:57
alterego	Teehee, screaming baby in the background :)	11:58
dmj726	neglected by lucky *******with an n900	11:58
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johnx	m00f	12:34
Stskeeps	moo johnx	12:34
johnx	just got back from work	12:35
Stskeeps	you managed to miss the typical oss discussion :P	12:35
Ceron^	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtY1GMPfadI why get a bugatti when you can have a n900	12:35
johnx	ah. bonus	12:35
johnx	also: I'm becoming less impressed with vmware	12:35
Stskeeps	mm?	12:36
Termana	yello johnx	12:36
johnx	Stskeeps, hint: I just got back from work and it's 2:36AM Monday here :)	12:37
Stskeeps	johnx: ah	12:37
johnx	Termana, allo	12:37
Stskeeps	point taken	12:37
johnx	it was supposed to be a regular maintenance window, but it appears that there is some kind of weird glitch in the vmware network card driver which affects our phone system (all centralized, IP phones, yada yada yada)	12:38
Stskeeps	ah, yeah, i've run into those :P	12:38
Termana	do you at least get paid overtime johnx? :P	12:38
johnx	Termana, yup. :)	12:38
Stskeeps	right, i'll give a cookie to the first guy making clone to SD for n900	12:39
* Stskeeps is getting sick of reinstalling broken backups.		12:39
Termana	not all bad then :P you just need some optimisim and a push in the right direction	12:39
Termana	preferably off the building. lol j/k	12:40
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johnx	Termana, I'd rather have free time than money, actually. or at least, I'd rather have more than time and a half :>	12:40
johnx	I now have at least another off-hours maintenance window to schedule to swap out the NIC and hope it helps	12:41
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Termana	why not ask for double time and cite medical insanity from stupid ass software as the reason	12:42
Termana	:P	12:42
Termana	say you'll sue them for the induced insanity otherwise! :P lol	12:43
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johnx	eh, I just want them to give the go-ahead for me to start switching to xen or kvm or (*&#$#ing anything else	12:44
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Stskeeps	right, rsync -aHx to external sd, plug sd in laptop, make a ubifs out of it.. this ought to work	12:45
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johnx	tangential: I'm always interested when people all seem to use vaguely different rsync arguments with the goal of accomplishing the same thing	12:46
Stskeeps	x is the important one here .. don't go across fs limits	12:47
johnx	ah, neat. I use a different trick for that	12:47
johnx	a bind mount	12:47
Stskeeps	http://flors.wordpress.com/	12:47
Stskeeps	if you didn't see, btw	12:47
johnx	woo!	12:48
johnx	flasher images!	12:48
Stskeeps	and new sdk updates	12:48
johnx	ooooh. not a MAC addr this time :>	12:48
Stskeeps	ah, imei instead	12:48
johnx	GUI installer for the SDK! wow. step in the right direction at least	12:49
johnx	I wish they'd push the vmware image more prominently	12:49
devmax	johnx: hmpf? can you post link :D	12:49
Stskeeps	johnx: that does point a bit to that they'll ship today	12:50
devmax	i don't see any images, where is your source	12:50
Stskeeps	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BPUbic1-mk&feature=player_embedded wtf	12:50
johnx	devmax, vmware image? flasher image?	12:50
johnx	flasher images are here: http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php	12:50
devmax	johnx: thank you	12:50
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zaheerm	awesome	12:51
zaheerm	can now update the preproduction n900	12:51
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johnx	I was hoping for an SSU :(	12:51
zaheerm	thx johnx	12:51
Stskeeps	and new kernel sources published	12:51
Stskeeps	phew	12:51
* Stskeeps was getting worried		12:51
johnx	guess it's a good time to reflash and clean up :/	12:51
Termana	lmao i got kicked from #ubuntu-offtopic	12:52
Stskeeps	oh, hey	12:52
Stskeeps	they published libjpeg6b	12:52
johnx	actually, no, (&#$ that. it's 3AM here. I should do that tomorrow ...	12:52
johnx	s/tomorrow/later today/	12:52
infobot	johnx meant: actually, no, (&#$ that. it's 3AM here. I should do that later today ...	12:52
ccooke	Morning, all	12:52
devmax	johnx: can i just put 123456121234560 as IMEI there ? :D	12:52
Stskeeps	that's a lot of L3/L4 going to L1/L2	12:53
Termana	morning ccooke	12:53
johnx	mornin' ccooke	12:53
johnx	Stskeeps, very cool	12:53
Stskeeps	wtf was this closed source for so long	12:53
johnx	which one?	12:54
Stskeeps	libjpeg	12:54
Stskeeps	uh..	12:54
johnx	heh. I'd love to believe there are some insanely cool optimizations	12:54
Stskeeps	osso-icons as source	12:54
ccooke	Stskeeps: I think there were patent issues originally	12:54
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hrw	few new questions I have	12:55
hrw	1. does n900 xserver supports rotation out-of-box with xrandr or not?	12:55
Stskeeps	johnx: osso-icons are still limited but at least they are providing a source package	12:56
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Stskeeps	with a restrictive license	12:56
_berto_	SDK updated again today ?	12:56
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timeless_mbp	tigert: i'm not buying a 2010 model (it's that time of year) because 2015 models will happen!	12:56
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Stskeeps	_berto_: yeah	12:56
kalikiana	hrw, you can switch an option whether it's automatic or not	12:57
Stskeeps	woo, maemoblocks source :P	12:57
hrw	kalikiana: thx	12:57
hrw	Stskeeps: url?	12:57
Stskeeps	http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0/free/m/	12:58
hrw	Stskeeps: as I am tired of navigating on repository.maemo.org and guessing where all is this time	12:58
tigert	timeless_mbp: pretty much yeah	12:58
johnx	hrw, it does. but using the CLI xrandr ... doesn't work as expected :)	12:58
hrw	johnx: thx	12:58
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hrw	ARGH...	12:58
hrw	~deeplycurse maemo so called admins for crappy sorting of directories on repository.maemo.org	12:59
Stskeeps	akamai issue probablly	12:59
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hrw	Stskeeps: for me it does not matter where it is kept. it is repository.maemo.org so I curse them	13:00
timeless_mbp	Stskeeps: err, is my xref out of date already?	13:00
Stskeeps	timeless_mbp: possibly..	13:00
Stskeeps	:P	13:00
timeless_mbp	you guys all suck	13:01
* timeless_mbp curses the world		13:01
Stskeeps	timeless_mbp: hey, i have to update again in mer too :P	13:01
* timeless_mbp ponders		13:01
Jaffa	Yay, firmware	13:01
zerojay	Firmware?	13:02
Stskeeps	fiasco	13:02
johnx	huh. dunno why I didn't think of this earlier: running: ssh -Y johnx@desktop from my n900 and inspecting its X server with xdpyinfo/xev/xset from my desktop :)	13:02
Jaffa	zerojay: http://flors.wordpress.com/2009/11/16/maemo-5-final-release-updated-sdk-and-firmware/	13:02
hrw	but what is rx-71?	13:02
zerojay	Anyone else have the problem where sometimes the n900 forgets it's being charged by USB and just drains?	13:02
timeless_mbp	hrw: output from a random generator	13:02
johnx	hrw, it was mentioned in some kernel drivers. no word from nokia	13:02
timeless_mbp	in the spirit of 'maemo' itself :)	13:02
timeless_mbp	we sometimes generate random bits to see if people will spend months guessing	13:03
SpeedEvil	What is the spirit of maemo? Vodka?	13:03
johnx	zerojay, I've seen mine never start charging	13:03
timeless_mbp	and then we stop using them	13:03
Jaffa	zerojay: Yes. I believe it's fixed in 42-11	13:03
jeremiah2	hrw: Deeply curse apt-ftparchive since it is the default. :P	13:03
johnx	but I've never seen it start draining after initially charging	13:03
timeless_mbp	hi jeremiah	13:04
timeless_mbp	wanna write a build script for me? :)	13:04
* timeless_mbp doesn't want to write one		13:04
jeremiah2	I rather have anthrax. :)	13:04
jeremiah2	How about OBS?	13:04
timeless_mbp	hrm... that could be arranged	13:04
jeremiah2	All the cool kids are using it.	13:04
timeless_mbp	does obs not use debian/rules ?	13:04
timeless_mbp	and is obs compatible w/ the maemo repos?	13:05
jeremiah2	I builds debs	13:05
jeremiah2	s/I/It/	13:05
infobot	jeremiah2 meant: It builds debs	13:05
timeless_mbp	yeah, i need a debian/rules file :)	13:05
timeless_mbp	err	13:05
hrw	10.5MB kernel diff	13:05
timeless_mbp	but i want to have a .deb src to give to the maemo repos	13:05
Stskeeps	hrw: linux-omap is included in that though	13:05
hrw	Stskeeps: I know	13:06
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hrw	jeremiah2: apt-ftparchive just generate Packages/Sources files.	13:06
hrw	jeremiah2: webserver exports directories. and this is where @$^@^@@$#! is present	13:06
hrw	Stskeeps: I would prefer them to rather ship 2.6.28 + omap1 + rx51 patch	13:07
jeremiah2	hrw: No - the repos are automatically organized	13:07
zaheerm	flashing emmc means everything under MyDocs will get erased right?	13:07
jeremiah2	We don't do any manual moving around of stuff.	13:07
jeremiah2	We don't do any manual dir naming	13:07
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hrw	jeremiah2: and you also do not have any sorting in DirectoryIndex part of apache config	13:08
Jaffa	zaheerm: Anything under /home (including MyDocs)	13:08
jeremiah2	hrw: You are not meant to browse the repos with a web browser.	13:08
zaheerm	Jaffa, ok, time to backup :)	13:08
timeless_mbp	jeremiah: aww, but it's so much fun	13:08
timeless_mbp	my web browser is wget	13:08
jeremiah2	lol	13:08
hrw	jeremiah2: but I do. and that error was reported long time ago iirc	13:08
Stskeeps	jeremiah2: yeah, but there's insane people like me as well :P	13:08
timeless_mbp	jeremiah: you should see the scripts i use	13:08
hrw	jeremiah2: remember that there is a world outside of maemo	13:09
jeremiah2	Why don't you guys use something like debmirror?	13:09
jeremiah2	Or the tools already out there written for this type of thing	13:09
jeremiah2	There is a world outside of your browser	13:09
hrw	jeremiah2: I have n810 and 770 working with non-Maemo systems and need some stuff from maemo sources for them	13:09
hrw	jeremiah2: sure.. and to grab kernel patches I need to debmirror whole maemo/os2008?	13:09
jeremiah2	hrw: But maemo has to support lots of devices, people and machines.	13:09
ccooke	Hmm. Recommendation is to do a complete reflash on the prerelease n900 and don't restore backup, right?	13:10
hrw	maemo and lots of devices.... please, do not make me laugh ok?	13:10
jeremiah2	So I think you ought to have just a little understanding that we need to provide a plain vanilla environment that works for as many UA's as possible.	13:10
hrw	jeremiah2: so far maemo has ~5 years and supports 5-6 devices	13:10
mgedmin	5-6?	13:11
timeless_mbp	jeremiah: http://pastebin.mozilla.org/684044 =)	13:11
jeremiah2	so what about the SDK? debian? Ubuntu? Q5?	13:11
hrw	770, n800, n810, n810we, n900 is 5. 770-128M can be 6th but it was nokia internal	13:11
timeless_mbp	770-128m?	13:12
johnx	hrw, wait, the question was directory sorting, right? what dir isn't sorted?	13:12
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hrw	johnx: http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0/free/	13:13
hrw	johnx: it is sorted by date instead of name.	13:13
hrw	timeless_mbp: 770 with 128MB ram	13:13
johnx	I have it sorted by name. I think your akamai mirror is temporarily confused	13:13
timeless_mbp	hrw: was this some third party hack or what?	13:13
hrw	jeremiah2: what is a problem in enabling FancyIndexes in apache name?	13:13
hrw	timeless_mbp: from what I got from in-nokia friends it was internal before n800	13:14
hrw	s/apache name/apache config	13:14
timeless_mbp	oh	13:14
dmj726	Does the new SDK still have the inverted colors bug?	13:14
timeless_mbp	yeah, it has another name	13:14
tbf	how long does it usually take until an autobuild package shows up on "apt-get update"?	13:14
timeless_mbp	hypothetically :)	13:14
hrw	johnx: I have z, libb, libj at the end	13:14
timeless_mbp	http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/kernel/	13:14
timeless_mbp	maemo kernel :(	13:15
johnx	hrw, ah, didn't look all the way down. most of them are sorted correctly, most of the time	13:15
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timeless_mbp	Stskeeps: so um	13:16
timeless_mbp	the repo now has fewer packages	13:16
hrw	http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo3.1/free/binary/ is very old dir and sorted randomly	13:16
timeless_mbp	clinkc-av-gnomevfs disappeared	13:16
timeless_mbp	clutter disappeared	13:16
timeless_mbp	oh no	13:17
timeless_mbp	sorry	13:17
timeless_mbp	reading diffs is hard :)	13:17
* timeless_mbp sighs		13:17
timeless_mbp	stupid diff directionality	13:17
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* timeless_mbp sighs		13:18
timeless_mbp	ok, so i only care about things that have changed	13:19
timeless_mbp	that's doable...	13:19
hrw	timeless_mbp: use midnight commander to travel though diff	13:19
timeless_mbp	yuck	13:19
* timeless_mbp hates mc		13:19
mathiasg	anyone knows when the N900 gets released?	13:19
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jeremiah2	mathiasg: What is the N900?	13:20
ccooke	mathiasg: technically it is released. Some people might have it tomorrow, most of the pre-orders will be in the next few days	13:20
johnx	mathiasg, they delay it 2 months every time someone asks :(	13:20
jeremiah2	mathiasg: It should be shipping already in certain parst.	13:20
Stskeeps	just like the pandora	13:20
johnx	Stskeeps, hey, they have parts of the finished case in their hands :D	13:21
johnx	it was a close thing down to the end	13:21
* timeless_mbp grumbles		13:21
timeless_mbp	ok, what the heck did they do to chavo	13:21
timeless_mbp	it looks like someone changed the checksums on files	13:22
timeless_mbp	shouldn't files in repos never change?	13:22
Stskeeps	nah, they can if they get updated	13:22
mathiasg	jeremiah2, any idea when I can expect it to not be advertised as a pre order though?	13:22
dmj726	what about updates?	13:22
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timeless_mbp	http://pastebin.mozilla.org/684045	13:22
timeless_mbp	Stskeeps: shouldn't the version of the package change?	13:23
Stskeeps	technically but if its rebuilt..	13:23
johnx	aaaah, a change without a package version bump. that's poor practice	13:23
johnx	<- learned that in the early days of mer, IIRC	13:24
jeremiah2	mathiasg: Where are you located?	13:24
timeless_mbp	johnx: it's my practice, but it's evil	13:24
mathiasg	jeremiah2, UK	13:24
timeless_mbp	so i like it as long as i'm the only one doing it :)	13:24
jeremiah2	mathiasg: All I can say is that it should be soon, not sure why your particular vendor is giving you that message.	13:25
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jeremiah2	In Sweden I have heard it won't be out until December	13:25
johnx	if you're 100% sure no one downloaded before you did that sneaky "rebuild/update" you're in the clear. just like running a red light with no one around	13:25
johnx	it's still a bad habit	13:25
timeless_mbp	it's funny	13:25
timeless_mbp	in finland people will wait for red lights to change in the middle of nowhere	13:26
dmj726	can the n900 do ogl es 1.1?	13:26
timeless_mbp	but clearly in @nokia, we don't follow that	13:26
Stskeeps	timeless_mbp: international company :P	13:26
timeless_mbp	jeremiah: oops, i forgot expando.pl in my pastebin	13:26
timeless_mbp	it's kinda important :)	13:26
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jeremiah2	expando.pl?	13:27
jeremiah2	what be that?	13:28
johnx	dmj726, can you give me an easy way to check for you?	13:28
dmj726	I tried googling for it already	13:28
timeless_mbp	jeremiah: basically i have a set of 4 scripts that convert a Sources file into a sources tree	13:28
johnx	dmj726, pretend I have an n900. how would I find out?	13:28
timeless_mbp	one downloads the files listed in Sources(	13:28
timeless_mbp	one extracts and patches them	13:28
timeless_mbp	one renames them	13:28
timeless_mbp	and one kills the evil bits	13:28
dmj726	I don't have an n900	13:29
jeremiah2	aha.	13:29
timeless_mbp	woohoo, expando finished :)	13:29
jeremiah2	Is it in the same pastebin?	13:29
johnx	dmj726, that's my point. tell me how I can help you find out if this n900 I'm holding supports gl es 1.1 :)	13:29
timeless_mbp	it's the one i forgot	13:29
dmj726	hmm	13:29
Stskeeps	theres gles 1.1 libs i think	13:30
Stskeeps	in sdk	13:30
johnx	also, glxinfo is not helpful in this regard :)	13:30
jeremiah2	GLXINFOFAIL	13:30
* ccooke wonders how many people with prerelease n900s have flashed so far		13:31
dmj726	look for gles 1.1 headers?	13:31
jeremiah2	ccooke: I'm about to :)	13:31
timeless_mbp	http://pastebin.mozilla.org/684047	13:31
alterego	Has /anyone/ done any OpenGL ES 2.0 stuff on the N900 yet?	13:31
johnx	ccooke, holding off til tomorrow. I don't want to stay up putting my contacts back on etc, tonight	13:31
alterego	It'd be nice if the wiki section had a bit more information on environment and maybe a really cheap sample.	13:32
zaheerm	ccooke, i am rsync-ing my /home :)	13:32
ccooke	johnx: so you're doing the full from-scratch reflash, then?	13:32
ccooke	zaheerm: ditto ;-)	13:32
johnx	dmj726, I have: /usr/lib/libGLESv2.so but not a GLESv1.so	13:32
zaheerm	ccooke, in preparation	13:32
johnx	ccooke, seems most sane	13:32
dmj726	on the device?	13:32
ccooke	johnx: yeah.	13:32
johnx	I'd like to clear out the remnants of some extras-devel/extras-testing stuff in the process	13:32
johnx	dmj726, no headers on the device	13:33
johnx	(no headers for anything on the device)	13:33
dmj726	oh	13:33
timeless_mbp	you could use http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/mesa/ :)	13:33
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dmj726	then how do you compile stuff on the device?	13:33
* timeless_mbp grumbles		13:33
timeless_mbp	why the heck?	13:33
* timeless_mbp curses		13:34
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alterego	NFS mounted include directories? :)	13:34
timeless_mbp	stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid	13:34
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johnx	dmj726, you either install all the headers from the -dev packages (totally not supported) or you don't compile on device	13:34
*** mathiasg is now known as loufoque		13:34
timeless_mbp	and installing all the -dev packages is a terrible idea :)	13:34
dmj726	okay	13:35
johnx	alterego, might be more sane to mount a microSD as /usr/include	13:35
timeless_mbp	heck, a symlink from /usr/include to VFAT would be ok	13:35
Shapeshifter	crashanddie: and I did so happily, talking to religious people about religious topics is mostly nonsensical and I've come to the conclusion that mockery is the best way of communicating with them.	13:35
timeless_mbp	well	13:35
dmj726	so stick to python for on device programming	13:35
timeless_mbp	unless someone's evil and uses symlinks in /usr/include	13:35
alterego	Maybe, I guess it depends on your environment.	13:35
* timeless_mbp wonders how evil people are		13:35
timeless_mbp	if they're evil, make it a symlink to ext3 :)	13:35
hrw	timeless_mbp: which happens	13:35
timeless_mbp	hrw: ...	13:35
timeless_mbp	jeremiah / Stskeeps : what the heck are http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/find?string=cdbs-config_list ?	13:36
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hrw	12:37 hrw@home:include$ find . -type l\|wc 11 11 160	13:37
hrw	11 symlinks in my /usr/include/ on Debian system	13:37
alterego	I think I prefer NFS, as it can integrate with my scratchbox environment.	13:38
jeremiah2	timeless_mbp: Config files for CDBS?	13:38
johnx	dmj726, libgles1 seems to be available but not installed by default. that might be your answer :)	13:38
* johnx sleeps		13:38
timeless_mbp	that's helpful, what's a cdbs, and can i eat it?	13:38
dmj726	okay	13:38
jeremiah2	CDBS is delicious!	13:38
jeremiah2	It is Yet Another way to build debian packages	13:39
jeremiah2	And it is not nice.	13:39
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jeremiah2	It is not widely used	13:39
timeless_mbp	http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/tiff/debian/rules?mark=11-14#10	13:39
hrw	hej TomaszD	13:39
timeless_mbp	no kidding	13:39
timeless_mbp	given there are only 10 consumers in mxr.maemo.org/fremantle	13:39
jeremiah2	There was a talk at debconf this year about debhelper and its market share, debhelper and dpkg-buildpackage are the most common ways to build packages in debian.	13:40
TomaszD	hrw, hej.	13:40
jeremiah2	So you can safely ignore CDBS :P	13:40
timeless_mbp	yeah, as long as i don't care about sqlite, cairo, atk, libnotify, pango, grep, or glade	13:40
jeremiah2	Yeah - who cares about them?	13:40
* timeless_mbp		13:40
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jeremiah2	And grep should not be CDBS . . .	13:41
dmj726	isn't sqlite necessary for firefox?	13:41
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timeless	we have our own copy	13:42
timeless	and the same fo cairo	13:42
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hrw	and same for 90% of other libraries?	13:43
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timeless	we used to have a copy of pango too	13:43
timeless	we should have made a copy of libnotify	13:44
hrw	and make mglibc	13:44
hrw	and then meglibc for maemo8	13:45
timeless	those idiots changed their abi w/o bumping soname	13:45
TomaszD	I have a summit device, should I flash the fiasco image first and then the eMMC or the other way around, how should this be handled?	13:45
timeless	back up	13:45
timeless	copy off device	13:45
timeless	reflash both	13:45
_marcell_	TomaszD: fiasco first, then eMMC	13:46
timeless	don't bother booting between	13:46
TomaszD	I have offsite backups :) alright	13:46
TomaszD	thanks	13:46
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Stskeeps	so no -R flag	13:46
Stskeeps	before emmc is flashed :P	13:46
hrw	so backup of whole 32GB is suggested just for system update?	13:46
TomaszD	no, this is a special case.	13:47
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hrw	ok	13:47
TomaszD	no need to reflash the eMMC in the production devices.	13:47
hrw	and production devices are not yet shipped ;(	13:47
TomaszD	well, that's too bad, why don't you start a thread about it on talk.maemo ;)	13:48
TomaszD	Stskeeps, so where should I not put the -R flag? when flashing the fiasco image?	13:48
Stskeeps	yeah	13:48
TomaszD	ok	13:48
hrw	TomaszD: please... I am not author of ITT new threads ;D	13:49
hrw	TomaszD: during 3 years of using maemo devices I did not posted more then 20 posts there probably	13:49
TomaszD	hrw, I know you, you're the openmoko guy from Poland, right?	13:49
hrw	TomaszD: no, I am one of first openmoko-gta01 owners in Poland and also my name is in many openmoko related places. but I never worked for openmoko directly	13:50
TomaszD	ok	13:51
hrw	TomaszD: but I also one of those who can enter #openmoko-devel channel	13:51
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TomaszD	well, I wanted to get the openmoko, but... I'm glad I didn't actually.	13:52
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TomaszD	I mean the freerunner	13:52
TomaszD	ok, bbl	13:52
hrw	TomaszD: I know	13:52
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zaheerm	someone should tell nokia: http://maemo.nokia.com/n900/ gives not found	13:54
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kirma	the situation might be interpreted as an attempt by somebody to update the page... and fail at that :)	13:55
Stskeeps	gah.. what is the device or resource busy fix for flasher again?	13:56
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ccooke	Hmm. backups done. Time to try reflashing.	14:04
jeremiah2	What eMMC stand for?	14:04
zaheerm	ccooke, good luck	14:04
ccooke	cheers	14:05
RST38h	yahooo	14:05
RST38h	jeremiah^2: Your builtin memory card	14:06
kalikiana	Stskeeps, sudo modprobe -r cdc_phonet	14:07
kirma	calling it a "card" is an overstatement	14:07
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tbf	strange, that the packages are not listed as published yet: http://maemo.org/packages/view/miniature/	14:08
jeremiah2	RST38h: Thanks	14:08
RST38h	Crawl/bot voting is now blocked.	14:08
RST38h	We're still working with the false votes.	14:08
* RST38h still got some before it was blocked though		14:09
jeremiah2	RST38h: Yeah, we'll have to wait for Xfade to return and look through his code.	14:09
alterego	Hrm, I need to create a "meta" package for Ruby	14:09
RST38h	jeremiah: Well, why not delete all votes made since Nov 10?	14:09
jeremiah2	alterego: Actually, that might be good idea.	14:09
jeremiah2	RST38h: Seems a bit excessive.	14:10
RST38h	jeremiah: The snr ratio there is gonna be so high that you can disregard the correct votes	14:10
alterego	jeremiah2: are you a Ruby user?	14:10
jeremiah2	no	14:10
Stskeeps	kalikiana: ?	14:10
alterego	Heh	14:10
RST38h	jeremiah: Not really: we are talking about 6 days of votes at most	14:10
jeremiah2	alterego: No, perl user, but I think there are people who would like ruby on the device	14:10
* alterego runs the test suite		14:10
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RST38h	jeremiah: Given how unfrequently people vote, you are not missing many	14:10
alterego	Yeah, I want to promote it to testing, but I figure having the meta-package now would be a good idea.	14:10
jeremiah2	RST38h: Removing votes, for nearly any reason, is a bad idea.	14:10
alterego	It's in extras-devel at the moment.	14:11
jeremiah2	alterego: Cool	14:11
RST38h	jeremiah: Again, no idea is a bad idea in 100% cases	14:11
alterego	I'm going to upload libhildon1-ruby	14:11
RST38h	(and I do include cannibalism :))	14:11
Stskeeps	what was the conclusion on the google bot votes again? :P	14:11
alterego	tonight	14:11
jeremiah2	heh	14:11
RST38h	Sts: They say they have fixed it	14:11
ccooke	Right. Flash the OS first, then the MMC - right?	14:11
kalikiana	Stskeeps, "what is the device or resource busy fix for flasher again?"	14:11
Stskeeps	kalikiana: hm, ok	14:12
kalikiana	That's what works for me at least	14:13
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ccooke	(Wait, the emmc is 41-1? I thought this was 42-11. Oh, different versions?)	14:13
jeremiah2	I'm using 41-1	14:13
jeremiah2	But that is the 'plain vanilla'	14:13
jeremiah2	There are others for other regions	14:14
jeremiah2	42-11 looks to be for the US	14:14
ccooke	those aren't the eMMC	14:14
jeremiah2	Sorry, 42-11.002	14:14
kalikiana	vanilla is not a region. think of it as without flavour	14:14
ccooke	the "plain vanilla" file is the eMMC. The three region-specific files are the OS	14:14
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jeremiah2	Yup	14:15
jeremiah2	mce postinstall script failing in SDK	14:19
_marcell_	jeremiah2: do you have any logs? It works for me, btw.	14:22
jeremiah2	_marcell_: Not yet, trying to find out why	14:24
jeremiah2	_marcell_: I think it may be persmissions issues, which I'm trying to solve now. :)	14:24
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zaheerm	ok backup complete, going for the flashing	14:26
andre__	i wonder once again how to call Target Milestones in Bugzilla... "5.0 (1.2009.42-11)" and "5.0 (2.2009.xx-yy)"? or "5.1 (2.2009.xx-yy)"? hmm, hmm, hmm...	14:26
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wazd	Heya all	14:27
lizardo	is it only me or garage SVN is veeery slow today ?	14:27
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lizardo	it is taking like 10 min to commit a simple less than one 1KB commit	14:28
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Stskeeps	wazd o/	14:28
lizardo	seems to be hanging on on some commit hook	14:28
RST38h	Where do I get N900 firmware promised by Quim?	14:30
RST38h	Is there a URL?	14:30
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TomaszD	http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php	14:31
andre__	RST38h, i guess http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php - haven't tried myself though	14:31
RST38h	Ahaaa! Thanks!	14:31
bedboi	hi guys, is developer program already closed?	14:31
RST38h	Got 200 karma points?	14:32
bedboi	nope	14:33
bedboi	just 56	14:34
* Jaffa formulates his "you read tmo so I don't have to" plan a bit more		14:34
andre__	bedboi, you need 200	14:34
andre__	to participate	14:34
bedboi	quite silly, i don't want to spam :)	14:35
bedboi	so i guess i won't participate	14:35
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waz2	Damned phone	14:35
Jaffa	I also believe it's closed.	14:35
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bedboi	ok, too busy right now, is there any chance to get a discount for companies wanting to target N* ?	14:36
bedboi	for _SMALL_ companies :)	14:37
* SpeedEvil ponders metalstorm getting a few dozen devices.		14:37
Jaffa	bedboi: Contact Forum Nokia. It has device programmes ongoing for commercial entities	14:37
bedboi	DDP.program@nokia.com ?	14:37
Jaffa	bedboi: No. http://forum.nokia.com/	14:38
Jaffa	Sign up for an account, and read up on "Commercial entity opportunities"	14:38
RST38h	bedboi: Let me clarify this	14:38
zaheerm	ok flashed....	14:38
RST38h	bedboi: In order to develop for N900 you do not need any karma. SDK is totally free.	14:38
RST38h	bedboi: So is documentation. No NDAs, no license agreements, nothing.	14:39
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jeremiah2	RST38h++	14:39
RST38h	bedboi: If you hoped for a free or discounted device, it is too late now	14:39
RST38h	bedboi: To get a discount on N900 you had to have 200 karma	14:39
SpeedEvil	Or get a 'free' device through a contract.	14:39
RST38h	bedboi: Having said that, the discount is nice but not drastic, and you are not getting the warranty	14:40
Jaffa	Or be a commercial partner.	14:40
timeless_mbp	or get one through FN?	14:40
SpeedEvil	Which is not actually expensive - where available - comparable to similar phones, maybe cheaper.	14:40
RST38h	bedboi: So, killing yourself over missing the opportunity is kinda pointless	14:40
mikhas	or find it at the back of a taxi in amsterdam	14:40
bedboi	RST38h, i know well.	14:40
timeless_mbp	mikhas: =)	14:40
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bedboi	RST38h, i've been in the dev program since n700	14:40
timeless_mbp	bedboi: a program that never existed?	14:41
* timeless_mbp wonders how one measures time from 'undefined'		14:41
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bedboi	i've just been quite silent since n810 due to work :(	14:41
timeless_mbp	(the first product was the "Nokia 770", not the n700, and not the n770)	14:41
RST38h	bedboi: Do you have any applications to show ?	14:41
bedboi	timeless_mbp, quite pointless :)	14:41
TomaszD	ok, so I have the flasher saying Suitable USB device not found, waiting	14:42
TomaszD	which is expected	14:42
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TomaszD	now what do I do?	14:42
RST38h	I.e. if you have been in the developer program since 770, you should have developed something?	14:42
bedboi	i did it :)	14:42
RST38h	you did what?	14:42
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bedboi	gpe-sudoku is something i wrote some time ago	14:43
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bedboi	it is quite stalled due to lack of time and feedback from users	14:43
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RST38h	ok	14:44
* timeless_mbp frowns		14:44
timeless_mbp	so um... about these stupid config_list files	14:45
RST38h	Oh shit, I managed to vote QGil's announcement BOTH up and down	14:45
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mikhas	time to get rid of your fake accounts, eh?	14:45
timeless_mbp	RST38h: heh	14:46
andre__	RST38h, split personality? ;-)	14:46
timeless_mbp	jeremiah / andre__ so about this stupid cdbs format	14:47
andre__	context?	14:47
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timeless_mbp	http://mxr.maemo.org/fremantle/source/grep/	14:50
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RST38h	andre: Whatever it is, it happens in Midgard	14:50
timeless_mbp	the fact that i have a .tar.gz as the only source thing mostly sucks	14:50
timeless_mbp	the question is should those files end up in grep/grep-2.5.1/ or in grep/	14:50
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andre__	RST38h, also happened to me a few times in the package voting interface	14:51
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jeremiah2	Should the device constantly be rebooting during flashing?	14:52
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alterego	1850 tests, 1343378 assertions, 0 failures, 1 errors	14:56
mikkov__	Did anybody with pre-summit device get the firmware downloaded from tablets-dev?	14:57
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alterego	Heh, running an emulator inside another emulator.	14:59
mikkov__	tablets-dev doesn't accept my IMEI	14:59
alterego	I guess if I installed the SNES emulator there'd be a three emulator deep envrionment.	14:59
kalikiana	jeremiah2, it shouldn't. you should see a progress bar on the device, and a lot of text in the console.	15:01
jeremiah2	kalikiana: Thanks.	15:01
jeremiah2	That is not what I am seeing.	15:01
jeremiah2	I wonder if I'm doin' it right.	15:02
jeremiah2	heh	15:02
Jaffa	Bah, I can't get flasher-3.5.exe to work.	15:02
Jaffa	Will have to wait until I get home	15:02
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jeremiah2	Eeeew - you use Windows? =]	15:02
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mikkov__	Jaffa: did tablets-dev accept your IMEI code from pre-summit device?	15:03
Jaffa	jeremiah2: At work. I've got it dual-booting to Ubuntu, but Evolution is too much of a pain with Exchange	15:03
Jaffa	mikkov__: It did.	15:03
* Jaffa 's is a pre-Nokia World device and it worked fine.		15:04
Lynoure	What's tablets-dev?	15:04
mikkov__	hmm, I'll try again	15:04
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Lynoure	or, url, rather...	15:04
Lynoure	ah, lastlog <3	15:04
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* mikkov__ forgot to remove slashes		15:05
Jaffa	jeremiah2: Actually, there's an Ubuntu box <----- :)	15:06
zaheerm	jeremiah2, i had that after flashing the emmc was over	15:06
zaheerm	jeremiah2, a power cycle of the n900 fixed it	15:07
jeremiah2	zaheerm: I hope that worked for me too.	15:07
jeremiah2	What is a good way to check that I have hte updated firmware?	15:07
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jeremiah2	I'm being lazy now.	15:07
lardman	morning	15:07
timeless_mbp	settings>about product	15:08
jeremiah2	lardster!	15:08
lardman	ah, jeremiah2, perhaps just the man	15:08
jeremiah2	timeless_mbp: That is too damn easy	15:08
lardman	anyone know if there's a limit on the size of the source tarball the autobuilder will upload?	15:08
timeless_mbp	jeremiah2: if you're using my version, it's easier: settings>about :)	15:08
timeless_mbp	(are you using my version)	15:08
timeless_mbp	so um...	15:08
lardman	I tried to upload a set of files for pocketsphinx and it kept choking, saying tar was having a problem	15:08
jeremiah2	oh, I'm at 41-10	15:08
jeremiah2	lardman: Bad tar	15:09
jeremiah2	timeless_mbp: Think so.	15:09
timeless_mbp	if it said About, you have my strings :)	15:09
jeremiah2	lardman: which distro? diablo or fremantle?	15:09
jeremiah2	timeless_mbp: I saw maemo-chavo in the SDK too	15:09
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timeless_mbp	jeremiah2: yeah, i can't read diffs very well	15:10
timeless_mbp	it wasn't a removal, it was an add	15:10
jeremiah2	who can	15:10
timeless_mbp	the newer rev has more copies	15:10
zaheerm	mine says 42-11]	15:10
lardman	jeremiah2: fremantle	15:10
jeremiah2	lardman: Hmmm. That is a newish problem.	15:10
timeless_mbp	andre__: you're going to love me, i think	15:10
lardman	well the tar.gz is ~22Mb	15:10
timeless_mbp	i have a bug to file about 'tar'	15:10
jeremiah2	ah	15:10
jeremiah2	22 megs zipped eh?	15:11
lardman	add to that the .diff and .dsc	15:11
lardman	yeah	15:11
jeremiah2	what are you uploading? Windows 7?	15:11
lardman	it's a beast, all the voice stuff I guess	15:11
lardman	nah, pocketsphinx	15:11
jeremiah2	aha	15:11
jeremiah2	Not a very accurate name.	15:11
lardman	I thought we should all have voices	15:11
jeremiah2	Perhaps 'whole pants sphinx'?	15:11
lardman	jeremiah2: wasn't me who wrote it ;)	15:11
jeremiah2	lardman: I will take a look, perhaps you can post it publically and I can try?	15:12
lardman	I think the whole pants/other-underwear sphinx is probably even bigger	15:12
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jeremiah2	If that fails, I can push it into fremantle by hand	15:12
jeremiah2	with extreme prejudice	15:12
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lardman	jeremiah2: sure, can't just now though, will do so this evening if that's ok?	15:12
andre__	timeless_mbp, for?	15:12
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jeremiah2	lardman: Evening sounds great :)	15:12
timeless_mbp	man tar :)	15:12
lardman	it needs optification still, so no major rush	15:12
*** jeremiah2 is now known as jeremiah\|afk		15:13
timeless_mbp	BUGS	15:13
timeless_mbp	...	15:13
jeremiah\|afk	lardman: Cool, we'll talk this evening!	15:13
lardman	sounds good, cheers	15:13
timeless_mbp	... This man page was first taken from Debian Linux and has since been loving updated here.	15:13
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timeless_mbp	s/loving/lovingly/	15:13
infobot	timeless_mbp meant: ... This man page was first taken from Debian Linux and has since been lovingly updated here.	15:13
timeless_mbp	that's the whole bug, one s/// :)	15:13
lardman	so is the new sw better than the last?	15:13
lardman	I saw all my bugs coming back to me with the version number changed ;)	15:13
* timeless_mbp can't figure out where here is		15:13
timeless_mbp	REPORTING BUGS	15:14
timeless_mbp	Please report bugs via https://bugzilla.redhat.com	15:14
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benno2	hi, I have an N810 with RX-44_DIABLO_5.2008.43-7_PR_MR0. I tried to install sliderotate: http://mikie.dy.fi/maemo/sliderotate-diablo.install by typing it in the browser (it worked with older OS2008 versions) but now I just see the contents of the file. any idea ?	15:15
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dneary	hi	15:15
zaheerm	dneary, hi	15:15
timeless_mbp	benno2: save it and then open it from file manager	15:15
* lardman wonders if he should file a bug about HFP not working fully in a BMW 730d		15:16
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dneary	Hi zaheer	15:16
lardman	hi dneary	15:16
benno2	timeless_mbp, thanks. trying now	15:16
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dneary	hi lardman	15:16
zaheerm	lardman, a bug has been filed about volkwagen/audio group hfp	15:16
zaheerm	lardman, it may be same bug	15:16
dneary	Have you ever experimented with any of the dbus API documenting tools?	15:16
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lardman	zaheerm: do you have the bug#?	15:16
dneary	(or are docs not really your thing? ;))	15:16
zaheerm	lardman, getting it	15:16
timeless_mbp	that means the server is broken	15:16
lardman	zaheerm: thanks	15:17
dneary	The great thing about people who hate writing docs is that they don't care that much that the docs are bad, as long as they have access to source code	15:17
lardman	timeless_mbp: some things work, like dialling a random number, but phone book doesn't	15:17
zaheerm	lardman, #5953	15:18
lardman	thanks	15:18
zaheerm	or: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5953	15:18
povbot	Bug 5953: no media sounds routed when connected to bluetooth headset in car (only works for phone calls)	15:18
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thp	does anyone know how to flash the final firmware release on a N900 HW rev. 2001?	15:18
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TomaszD	thp, I'm working on this right now	15:19
lardman	how do you know the hw rev?	15:19
zaheerm	thp, http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_firmware#Linux ?	15:19
lardman	or rather where is that from?	15:19
TomaszD	it won't work from there	15:19
TomaszD	needs a legacy image	15:19
TomaszD	I have the same HWID	15:19
zaheerm	must be a prototype device...	15:20
TomaszD	yes.	15:20
dneary	thp, You'll be in Barcelona, I hear?	15:22
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thp	dneary: yes, you too?	15:22
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dneary	Looking that way	15:23
Khertan	Hello everyone !	15:23
dneary	we'll be having a docs workshop there too	15:23
lardman	hi Khertan	15:23
Khertan	hi lardman	15:23
dneary	It'd be great if you could stop by - I've heard good things about your efforts to improve developer docs	15:23
lardman	Khertan: I was reading on the forum that some people think you've given up on your python todo/etc. apps	15:23
thp	hehe ;) yes, will do. is it on all three days?	15:24
Khertan	"think you've given up on your python todo/etc. apps"	15:24
Khertan	what you mean ?	15:24
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lardman	well I am looking for a todo app, and was browing the threads, and some chap was saying that as you've not replied to him you've given up	15:24
lardman	etc	15:24
lardman	I'll have to see who it was and which thread	15:25
Khertan	oh ... really ?	15:25
Khertan	to be honest i didn't see anymail	15:26
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Khertan	but i didn't really read talk.maemo.org since 5 or 6 months	15:27
lardman	Khertan: I don't blame you, quite low SNR now	15:27
Khertan	as it s always full of troll and people complaining	15:27
lardman	hi ssvb	15:27
Khertan	lardman: yes i know	15:27
Khertan	SNR ?	15:28
ssvb	hi lardman	15:28
bleader	Signal to Noise Ratio I guess	15:28
lardman	yeah, sorry	15:28
Khertan	ah oki :)	15:29
Khertan	thx	15:29
bleader	Hi by the way, new here :)	15:30
* ccooke tries out the release firmware on MfE sync with google		15:30
lardman	Khertan: no idea where that thread was, don't worry, but will ping you if I ever find it again	15:30
Khertan	lardman: yep thanx :)	15:30
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* lardman wonders if MaemoPad+ is available for Fremantle?		15:31
* AndrewFBlack hates reading t.m.o anymore		15:32
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* Khertan same		15:33
* RST38h yawns then moos		15:33
Stskeeps	AndrewFBlack: yeah,, hopefully it will be better soon	15:33
AndrewFBlack	14 pages of posts and I only found 2 worth reading	15:33
mgedmin	AndrewFBlack, urls to those two?	15:34
lcuk	t.m.o is just like any forum, it is what you make it and is upto us to improve it	15:34
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* mgedmin want somebody else to read t.m.o and provide concise summaries		15:34
lardman	hmm	15:34
Lynoure	mgedmin: if you'd pay for it...	15:34
AndrewFBlack	mgedmin, couldn't find them again if i wanted to\	15:34
Jaffa	mgedmin: Let me forward you an email...	15:34
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mgedmin	Lynoure, in karma points only ;)	15:34
mgedmin	yeah, I imagine it would be a thankless job	15:35
Jaffa	mgedmin: You have mail.	15:35
AndrewFBlack	lcuk, its hard for us to control people making stupid posts (god I'm starting to sound like GeneralAntilles lol)	15:35
Myrtti	moo	15:36
mgedmin	"Hopefully this shouldn't be too much work" ha ha haaa haa haaa	15:36
mgedmin	sorry	15:36
mgedmin	mfff	15:36
Jaffa	mgedmin: Well, people who read tmo already ;-)	15:36
Jaffa	mgedmin: Whereas some people read IRC	15:36
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lcuk	of course, but the topics havent exactly been managed that well. if theres no1 leading with interesting stuff and having good discussions then it will cycle round	15:36
Myrtti	IRC isn't any better	15:36
Myrtti	just less used	15:37
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* lcuk puts head back in laptop anyway		15:37
andre__	mgedmin, ask Nokia to create a community position called "Talkmaster"? :-P	15:37
Stskeeps	isnt that reggie? :P	15:38
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andre__	i think reggie has lotsa other stuff to do :-P	15:38
lardman	andre__: and equip him with a shotgun?	15:38
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andre__	no, i prefer a slow death.	15:39
Khertan	:)	15:39
lardman	aim for the gut?	15:39
timeless_mbp	two golden spons!	15:39
timeless_mbp	s/on/oons/	15:39
infobot	timeless_mbp meant: two golden spoonss!	15:39
* timeless_mbp gives up		15:39
Lynoure	there is no golden spoon.	15:40
lardman	~curse the lack of a heirachical todo app	15:40
infobot	May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, the lack of a heirachical todo app !	15:40
Khertan	a question ... why does there is 3 different firmware for the n900 ?	15:41
lcuk	todo:	15:41
lcuk	* write heirachical todo app	15:41
lcuk	* * make backend	15:41
lcuk	* * make ui	15:41
lcuk	* * * drink wine	15:41
lcuk	* * test	15:41
Khertan	Maemo 5 USA variant for Nokia N900 <-> Maemo 5 Middle East and North Africa <-> Maemo 5 Global release for Nokia N900	15:41
mgedmin	where _is_ the firmware for the n900?	15:41
Khertan	lcuk: hum ... i ve the same ... but with finish pygtkeditor before :)	15:42
Khertan	mgedmin: http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php	15:42
lardman	lcuk: yeah, but I need one that can have multiple upstream dependencies, and prefereably on that will re-arange the whole tree once a task is done	15:42
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lardman	Khertan: perhaps the map stuff on the eMMC>	15:42
lardman	Khertan: does mtodo do heirarchies the ?	15:43
Khertan	lardman: nope :)	15:43
* lardman wonders about the spelling of that one		15:43
Khertan	with s :)	15:43
Khertan	mTodos :)	15:43
Khertan	because there is always many todo to do	15:43
Khertan	:)	15:43
lardman	hmm, will have to add "write heirachical ToDo" app as a root dep to all the other work then	15:43
* timeless_mbp ponders		15:43
Khertan	lardman: nope ... before : write the source code editor to write the todo apps	15:44
tbf	wtf!?	15:44
tbf	http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/dists/fremantle/Release	15:44
tbf	there are no packages in that file	15:44
mgedmin	woohoo!	15:44
tbf	compare with http://repository.maemo.org/extras/dists/fremantle/Release	15:44
suihkulokki	jjo: ^	15:44
Khertan	it s seems that extras devel has been cleaned :)	15:45
timeless_mbp	probably a good thing	15:45
lardman	hmm, to rebuild against the new SDK?	15:45
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tbf	Khertan: more seems like a build bot problem. dunno.	15:46
jjo	I've got nothing to do with extras	15:46
Stskeeps	out of space?	15:47
jjo	I did break the sdk repos for a while though ;)	15:47
lardman	probably my attempt to upload pocketsphinx build files ;)	15:47
suihkulokki	jjo: ok. I just know you asked about Release files and soon after someone complained that they broke ;)	15:48
Lynoure	Flashing again probably wipes all my data again?	15:48
Lynoure	Or has it been done better now?	15:49
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Khertan	or a bug in the update by the bot	15:49
tbf	andre__: do you know if some maintenance work was scheduled for extras-devel?	15:49
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Khertan	tbf: ouch ... "boss comming in the room lag" :)	15:50
suihkulokki	Lynoure: now maemo has "seameless sofware updates" aka apt-get	15:50
andre__	tbf, according to http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/maemork/ I assume that jeremiah was looking into it	15:50
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mgedmin	Khertan, thanks!	15:50
suihkulokki	Lynoure: but you can still flash, and when flashing settings are lost unless backuped first	15:50
* mgedmin is a bit surprised not to see that link in the /topic		15:50
tbf	andre__: what kind of channel is qaiku again?	15:51
*** mgedmin changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo \| http://maemo.org \| http://maemo.nokia.com \| Maemo Community Council http://maemo.org/community/council \| http://mxr.maemo.org \| http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog \| Maemo-Barcelona Long Weekend - Registrations open - http://tinyurl.com/ydv6p62 \| FIRMWARE IS HERE AT LAST! http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php"		15:51
Shapeshifter	Has any n900 owner in here tried a cover? Like something like this http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180433309677	15:51
*** Disconnected has joined #maemo		15:51
Disconnected	[Join] 3 Kuru$Luk Ýnsana 5 Kuru$Luk Deqer VerirSen KaLan 2 Kuru$ada Seni Satar.!	15:51
Disconnected	[Part] kimSe kendini pahaLýdan Satmasýn herkezin indirim günLerini biLiyorum..!!	15:51
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tbf	andre__: http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/maemork/view/1decff155d2322ccff111de8434898895afb7c5b7c5/ - that's posted three days ago	15:51
Khertan	Shapeshifter: cover is useless i always use it :)	15:51
Shapeshifter	Khertan: yeah but that's a cover that is always on	15:52
Khertan	from the previous firmware the battery consomption have been greatly improve	15:52
Khertan	i ll check with the final one :)	15:52
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Jaffa	"To flash the bootloader, you have to supply the X-Loader image"	15:52
kirma	what's the point of such a cover? does it provide real protection if the device is dropped to hard (concrete) floor?	15:53
kirma	seems so much a iphoneism to me.	15:53
TomaszD	Jaffa, which HW revision do you have?	15:53
kirma	maybe they could sell it pink with encrusted "jewels" :)	15:53
ccooke	Khertan: you've noticed battery improvements already?	15:54
ccooke	Khertan: when did you flash?	15:54
Jaffa	TomaszD: Pre-summit	15:54
Khertan	ccooke: one weeks ago	15:55
Khertan	:)	15:55
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kirma	the question about protection provided by such a cover wasn't rhetorical, I really wonder about it. how much more than just minor scratch protection such a thing does give?	15:56
ccooke	Khertan: to 42-11?	15:56
Khertan	nope it was an older one from the week 42	15:57
TomaszD	kirma, it's designed this way so that when you drop your N900 it doesn't actually break, but just fall into three pieces you can put together again	15:58
Khertan	flashing in progress :)	15:58
tbf	jeremiah: any idea what happend to the Release file of extras-devel?	15:59
tbf	jeremiah: http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/dists/fremantle/Release	15:59
kirma	I've failed to break a single phone until now, but also I guess E90 might be surprisingly ruggerized (it has cracks after dozen drops to asphalt, but works fine...)	15:59
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Khertan	kirma: my 3210 resist to a drop at 160Km on a bike	16:00
Khertan	:)	16:00
Khertan	160km/h	16:00
Khertan	but i ll not try with my n900	16:01
pupnik_	i can oicture that	16:01
pupnik_	lol!	16:01
kirma	wondered about those kelvin-meters	16:01
lcuk	i was wondering more how he cycled up a 160kilometer hill	16:01
Khertan	:)	16:01
Khertan	lol	16:01
andre__	tbf, yeah. so? :-)	16:01
andre__	tbf, jeremiah should know	16:02
Khertan	hum ... 100miles by hour :)	16:02
kirma	but still... I sort of find the idea of phone requiring a specific shell to survive ordinary life is odd	16:02
kirma	either it's like a doll to you or it's badly designed (iphone comes to mind on both cases;)	16:02
timeless_mbp	Khertan: getting a bike up to 160Km above the earth would be a neat trick	16:02
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Khertan	timeless_mbp: clearly ;)	16:03
* timeless_mbp frowns		16:03
alterego	You know hte XmaemoX tag to add to package versions, what's the first X represent?	16:03
pupnik_	if any of us does it, Khertan will	16:03
Khertan	kirma: you mean like the iphone require a portable climatization ?	16:03
timeless_mbp	I think the first X is actually from the preceding thing's versioning :)	16:03
alterego	Yeah, that's what I thought	16:04
Stskeeps	alterego: a way to be replaced if upstream gets put in	16:04
Khertan	youhou ... let s see what s new in the new firmware	16:04
kirma	or even like a baby - you dedicate your life to your device so it can stay unscratched and well kept ;)	16:04
kirma	N900 cover might be interesting to try if it's cheap enough, though. anyway, accidents happen, phones are replaceable (at least if backups are good) - real babies are not. better concentrate on those things that really can't be replaced. :)	16:06
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* mgedmin already managed to scratch his N900 screen		16:08
mgedmin	:/	16:08
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kirma	screen protector is something I do care to get... likelihood of getting a scratch there, and annoyance caused by one are considerable.	16:09
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kirma	I believe a phone shell would otherwise just protect from aesthetic scratches... don't really believe it improves the rigidity on truly brutal drops.	16:11
zaheerm	weird i no longer get my telepathy availability and status in status area	16:11
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RST38h	Googlebot continues "voting" for Maemo5 apps =(	16:12
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RST38h	Just got another 7 hits	16:12
kirma	those should be really POST form buttons	16:13
alterego	Indeed	16:14
alterego	hyperlinks should never change state :P	16:14
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kirma	remember the horror stories of having a web site management tools based on links and robots coming around and deleting the whole web site...	16:14
alterego	Heh	16:15
RST38h	coooool	16:15
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Stskeeps	lo qwerty12	16:17
qwerty12	Hiya, Stskeeps	16:17
hrw	bye	16:17
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lardman	bbiab	16:18
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Shapeshifter	kirma: well I'm not sure how much protection _that_ cover would give, that's why I was asking earlier, but I'm using a cover for my 160gb iPod and I've been using it for two years already and it doesn't have a single scratch. It looks like brand new out of the box.	16:19
SpeedEvil	yeah - well - looks like	16:19
SpeedEvil	It does little for major knocks.	16:19
SpeedEvil	It will of course protect the paint.	16:19
SpeedEvil	Do you care about that though	16:19
Shapeshifter	SpeedEvil: i think most devices/phones wouldn't break if dropped when protected by a case. The shock/G-forces itself is usually not the problem but the fact that the casing of the device falls apart	16:20
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SpeedEvil	I tend to lose most devices by sitting on them.	16:21
Shapeshifter	if you drop the display on a pointy stone that might be different	16:21
Shapeshifter	SpeedEvil: >.> ouch.	16:21
timeless_mbp	at 600EUR, i recommend not losing your items that way	16:21
SpeedEvil	That'swhyu if my n900 arrives - I'm purchasing accidental damage cover.	16:21
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derf	I like the "if".	16:22
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SpeedEvil	derf: I did the stupid discount coupon route.	16:22
SpeedEvil	So I'm paying half priceish.	16:22
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* timeless_mbp frowns		16:22
SpeedEvil	hence I'm not 100% sure it will in fact arrive.	16:22
SpeedEvil	And not be cancelled.	16:22
ccooke	That's odd.	16:23
RST38h	No sign from DDP yet?	16:23
eean	I'm trying to run the flash-3.5 on the n900, it keeps saying "Unable to enumerate USB devices!" when I turn the n900 on.	16:23
ccooke	I must have misread something: I recall qgil saying in the forum that maemo extras was being shipped enabled... but it's not enabled on this firmware image	16:23
timeless_mbp	eean: um	16:23
timeless_mbp	are you running the flasher from the XTerminal in the device?	16:24
mgedmin	RST38h, I haven't received any indications that the DDP knows I still exist	16:24
mikhas	lol	16:24
eean	timeless_mbp: heh no :)	16:24
timeless_mbp	because the flasher is to be run from your desktop computer...	16:24
eean	I know	16:24
ccooke	eean: I've seen that on a couple of things	16:24
RST38h	mgedmin: have you ordered?	16:24
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timeless_mbp	eean: are you su?	16:24
mgedmin	RST38h, yep, last week	16:24
eean	timeless_mbp: I said it happens when the device turns on... so it wouldn't work if I was running it on the device. yep I have sudo	16:24
ccooke	eean: most recently an ubuntu laptop running karmic, but that was a month or more before karmic was released	16:24
eean	running opensuse 11.1 here	16:24
RST38h	mgedmin: Well, they at least know of your bank account or credit card	16:25
ccooke	eean: kernel?	16:25
mgedmin	they have reserved 251 EUR (from Nokia Italy for some reason)	16:25
mgedmin	maybe because lt looks like it	16:25
eean	Linux wasabi 2.6.31.5-0.1-desktop #1 SMP PREEMPT 2009-10-26 15:49:03 +0100 x86_64 x86_64 x86_64 GNU/Linux	16:25
RST38h	They did it from Nokia UK in London for me	16:25
timeless_mbp	eean: sorry, your sentence has so many failures that i couldn't recover properly	16:25
toggles_w	lol	16:25
RST38h	mgedmin: You may be getting the IT version ;)	16:25
Khertan	mgedmin: i ve see nothing	16:25
mgedmin	I'm afraid of that, actually	16:25
Khertan	mgedmin: in my bank account	16:26
mgedmin	Khertan, have you ordered?	16:26
ccooke	(Hmm. this karmic laptop just worked on my n900.)	16:26
mgedmin	or, rather, when?	16:26
eean	timeless_mbp: oh heh I see the ambigiousness now :)	16:26
Khertan	mgedmin: the ddp one yep	16:26
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Khertan	and i ve confirmation page for paiement ... but no confirmation email ... nothing in bank account ... i 'm just waiting	16:27
eean	ccooke: karmic probably runs 2.6.31 as well. I have some intrepid laptops in the house, I could just use one of those.	16:27
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ccooke	eean: karmic does run 2.6.31 (2.6.31-14-generic to be precise)	16:28
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Lynoure	hmm, "Invalid FIASCO subimage id (00)"	16:29
eean	I also have a windows laptop sitting next to me, but NSU doesn't seem to have the n900 unlike what the wiki says.	16:29
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Lynoure	Anyone got this same error with the Global release?	16:30
Lynoure	I think that's the version I should use, being a Finn.	16:30
mgedmin	Khertan, I still haven't received the promised email that the DDP device is available ;)	16:31
Khertan	mgedmin: ah yep ... true	16:31
Khertan	mgedmin: maybe it s the reason for not getting a confirmation when buying it	16:32
Khertan	mgedmin: not really available	16:32
mgedmin	could be my spam filters... although I got the email that told me they will email me when the N900 is out	16:32
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mgedmin	I'd be chewing nails and furniture if I didn't have the amsterdam loaner device	16:33
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mgedmin	going there (out of my pocket) was the best decision ever	16:33
zaheerm	mgedmin, same	16:33
zaheerm	mgedmin, it was random for me too :)	16:34
Khertan	mgedmin: me too ... hopefully i got one at amsterdam too :)	16:34
ccooke	Khertan: you aren't sure?	16:34
Khertan	ccooke: sure of what ?	16:34
Stskeeps	qwerty12: i'll get you a cookie if you figure out how to hack the dialog that pops up on usb connect	16:35
ccooke	Khertan: you said "hopefully i got one at amsterdam too"	16:35
Khertan	:)	16:35
ccooke	Khertan: and I am being mean and pointing out the ambiguity	16:35
Khertan	:)	16:35
qwerty12	Stskeeps: The dialog is contained in the USB status bar plugin; closed source	16:36
Stskeeps	k	16:37
* Stskeeps wonders if anyone made n900 send audio over pulseaudio to another host yet		16:37
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mgedmin	Stskeeps, I think somebody mentioned doing that here on this channel	16:40
mgedmin	or maybe on planet.maemo.org	16:40
tbf	Stskeeps: does "car radio" count as "another host"?	16:40
mgedmin	tbf, only if you can ssh into your car radio	16:41
tbf	mgedmin: bah... but... but... in this context? ;-)	16:41
Lynoure	seems my RX-51_2009SE_1.2009.42-11_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin is also not 161787293 in size but 167796125, bizarre	16:42
tbf	Stskeeps: do you have any actual issues, or do you just ask out of curiosity?	16:43
mikhas	as if the md5sums on that fw site existed for a reason ...	16:43
Stskeeps	tbf: let's say i want to move music playing on my n900 to my media centre at home for instance	16:43
Stskeeps	or my media centre to my n900	16:43
Lynoure	is 161787293 really the right size?	16:44
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tbf	Stskeeps: guess there the best approach is using uPnP	16:44
tbf	Stskeeps: nokia's media player already supports the client role out of the box...	16:45
tbf	Stskeeps: and to feed your media center you could install zeenix' rygel	16:45
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mgedmin	omfg	16:45
* mgedmin does ls -l /mnt/mnt/.documents/User Guides/.en		16:45
mikhas	again, check the md5: 24d60d2f091a4f77620f5cc689272153 RX-51_2009SE_1.2009.42-11_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin	16:45
mgedmin	eeek, 128-bit GUIDs as filenames!	16:46
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mgedmin	this is interesting and unexpected: User_Guide_Lithuanian_index.html	16:46
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qwerty12	mgedmin, yeah, you must be their only Lithuanian user...	16:47
mgedmin	of a n900, pretty definitely	16:48
mgedmin	there are a few n8x0s out here	16:48
Lynoure	mikhas: wrong sum... but I cannot figure out whether it is wrong file on the site or something repeatedly going wrong when downloading it.	16:48
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RST38h	EVERYBODY HIDE: Engadget reviews N900	16:49
qwerty12	RST38h: "Our verdict: It's no iPhone."	16:49
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kirma	primary feature of a respectable phone is that it has capacitive touchscreen!	16:50
RST38h	qwerty: As a matter of fact, they are somewhat favorable	16:50
kirma	and fruit logo.	16:50
RST38h	qwerty: They say the browser is the best on the market, iPhone included	16:50
RST38h	qwerty: They like the CPU. About the UI overal they politely says that it is the best Maemo UI ever.	16:50
mikhas	yeah, because you can install ad-block for it	16:51
kirma	somehow, only one manufacturer seems to fulfill these stringent and rational requirements.	16:51
* RST38h reread what he just wrote and counted typos		16:51
RST38h	Horrible.	16:51
qwerty12	RST38h: s/favorable/favourable/	16:51
RST38h	qwerty: "they says", yea	16:51
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* javispedro reads about something relating engadget, review and n900		16:52
qwerty12	RST38h: I kinda have mixed feelings about the browser, myself. The gestures and the interface is brilliant, but it's pretty slow at actually updating the screen when going back, for example	16:52
RST38h	qwerty: but at least I use "aluminium" and "nuclear" =)	16:52
RST38h	qwerty: Well, it still has to redraw, really	16:52
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qwerty12	RST38h: Yes, but even the N810 wasn't this slow at doing it :)	16:53
mikhas	Lynoure, my image was downloaded correctly	16:53
RST38h	N810 was horribly slow	16:53
waz1	Stupid phone	16:53
mgedmin	qwerty12, pressing backspace on the hw kbd makes it go back a bit faster	16:53
RST38h	It just got stuck when scrolling :)	16:53
RST38h	moo wazd	16:53
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mgedmin	but yeah, it usually redownloads instead of showing the cached image	16:53
Lynoure	mikhas: might be some weird vm issue then... will try with a real computer.	16:53
waz1	Reheya all	16:54
mgedmin	which is painful for ajaxy sites with "load more data" buttons	16:54
RST38h	mgedmin: not really, not inside the same page	16:54
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RST38h	mgedmin: between pages, yes, it does not cache a lot, for some reaosn	16:54
mikhas	I dont think it caches at all	16:55
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RST38h	Anyone tried about:config to change caching policies?	16:55
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mikhas	I think I could make an easy connection to data plans ...	16:55
kirma	the browser should really maintain some sort of minimal "page engine" state even on preceding pages and just freeze activity on them, then show the cached image first and recover the state (including javascript) to give illusion of snappiness	16:56
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kirma	but that'd require considerable amount of hacking the browser internals...	16:56
RST38h	Oh, the browser vertical mode is enabled now!!!	16:56
* RST38h salivates		16:56
Stskeeps	in your fw image?	16:56
RST38h	No, wrong	16:56
RST38h	that is ww46	16:56
derf	kirma: Not to mention considerable amounts of memory.	16:56
kalikiana	it's a pity it hides the address in portrait mode	16:57
mikhas	memory? your data connection is faster than your sd?	16:57
kirma	derf: not necessarily, although quite probably so if those pages are something like moronbook	16:57
javispedro	bah. boring review	16:57
javispedro	i expected more gore	16:57
mgedmin	the official preferences let me specify the size of the memory cache; I think I set it to auto	16:57
mgedmin	sometimes it does cache, but very very rarely	16:57
RST38h	Nearly 80 percent of security products fail to perform as intended when first tested and generally require two or more cycles of testing before achieving certification, according to a new ICSA Labs report	16:58
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derf	RST38h: They get certified that fast?	16:59
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RST38h	guess so	16:59
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RST38h	I do not think they ever work though	16:59
RST38h	never seen a working one	16:59
derf	Yeah, I think that says more about the certification process than the products.	16:59
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RST38h	Moo VDVsx	17:00
VDVsx	hey RST38h :)	17:00
RST38h	derf: They certify snake oil by requirements specifically drafted to certify snake oil	17:01
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RST38h	derf: So, nothing surprising	17:01
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derf	Well, security is mostly a state of mind, anyway. So it seems appropriate to me.	17:02
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kirma	there are security products that really do valuable stuff. but there are also attecks that are challenging to detect or prevent unless you have infinite product development resources and infinite amount of appliance computing power.	17:03
kirma	some ICSA profiles include pretty tough challenges for the vendors...	17:04
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suihkulokki	trouble is managers	17:05
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suihkulokki	trouble is managers want black box in their network that makes the net safe	17:06
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kirma	any kind of security product can be configured or used incompetently nullifying its security incentive...	17:06
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wazd	Re-reheya all	17:07
kirma	well, almost any kind of device. but the ones that can't be misconfigured are really not the stuff that's usually installed...	17:07
* Stskeeps passes wazd a cookie		17:07
* wazd Nom-nom-noms		17:09
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wazd	Any shocking news today?)	17:11
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RST38h	wazd: 42.-11 firmware is officially out	17:12
RST38h	wazd: and there is a 45.xx screenshot showing portrait mode microb	17:12
Stskeeps	or someone who made a portrait browser	17:12
Khertan	:)	17:12
Khertan	not difficult :)	17:12
wazd	RST38h: photoshop rulles =)	17:13
Stskeeps	i mean, wazd could whip that up in photoshop in a matter of minutes..	17:13
timeless_mbp	andre__: bug 3675 doesn't make sense	17:13
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3675 backup will loop nearly infinitely for directories containing pairs of symlinks that do not point to descendants because backup is following them	17:13
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kirma	heh	17:13
Stskeeps	wazd: next up: fart app from iphone running on n900 ;)	17:14
florian	hi bedboi	17:14
wazd	Stskeeps: meheheh)	17:14
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RST38h	wazd: Actually, I have seen it IRL, so it is not photoshop	17:14
andre__	timeless_mbp, feel free to comment on that report	17:14
wazd	Stskeeps: who needs fart app when you have liqtorch! :D	17:14
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Stskeeps	torch the farts?	17:15
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wazd	Stskeeps: eeew)	17:15
RST38h	liqfart + liqtorch	17:15
* RST38h hides		17:15
wazd	RST38h: cool	17:15
qwerty12	Fire farts!	17:16
Stskeeps	Farts-on-fire, not Frets-on-fire	17:16
kirma	application of the fruit kind?	17:16
* RST38h goes to bugs.maemo.org to whine		17:16
kirma	does it have stereo sound effects?	17:16
wazd	Fart over FM transmitor	17:17
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kirma	lol	17:17
zash	7.1!	17:17
kirma	with slightly higher transmission power... that would be amusingly useless app enough	17:17
Stskeeps	wazd: connect to insecure bluetooth headsets..	17:17
Stskeeps	:P	17:17
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qwerty12	So, law-abiding citizens, who has used their N900 to prank people using the FM transmitter?	17:17
kirma	I suppose the fm transmitter effective transmission power (under regulations) is on scale of picowatts, which allows only couple meters of transmission	17:18
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wazd	kirma: enough for a prank	17:19
kirma	sort of	17:19
RST38h	Aaaaaannnnd.... The new XTerm bug #6209 !	17:19
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6209 XTerm does not immediately take focus	17:19
kirma	one could take a web version of a radio and retransmit it "modified"	17:20
Stskeeps	RST38h: i really wish i could disable address book search	17:20
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timeless_mbp	RST38h: surely that's a duplicate?	17:20
timeless_mbp	odd	17:21
timeless_mbp	there's no obvious bug for it	17:21
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qwerty12	Stskeeps: rm /usr/bin/osso-addressbook.launch	17:22
Stskeeps	qwerty12: nah, it is handy at times..	17:22
Stskeeps	:P	17:22
qwerty12	Hehe	17:23
RST38h	Sts: Addr Book is not to blame here	17:23
RST38h	Sts: XTerm should immediately take focus, it does not for some reason	17:23
RST38h	Annnd another one" bug #6210	17:24
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6210 GPRS connection not restored after being interrupted	17:24
Stskeeps	RST38h: desktop issue	17:24
Stskeeps	it happens in other apps too	17:24
RST38h	Sts: oh =(	17:24
Stskeeps	it's while an app is launching, something is odd	17:24
timeless_mbp	RST38h: the issue is that desktop is cheating	17:24
timeless_mbp	it shows a picture of the app	17:25
kirma	RST38h: is the GPRS part particularly different from other phones?	17:25
timeless_mbp	and then runs the app	17:25
Jaffa	Stskeeps is right. maemo-launcher doesn't capture keypresses.	17:25
kirma	obvious problem testing that in helsinki area is that there are really not so many places where one could lose the connectivity long enough...	17:26
Stskeeps	basically when launching an app, it shouldn't allow address book to pop up :P	17:26
Stskeeps	except maybe when typing 1 1 2 ..	17:26
kirma	metro tunnel isn't enough.	17:26
wazd	So, DDP is closed?	17:26
lcuk	no Stskeeps you must wait for the console to popup, then type "phone type=emergency location=uk number=999" why on earth would you need to search when its such a simple command line op :p	17:27
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Jaffa	Extras-testing broken?	17:32
andre__	Jaffa, Fremantle? Diablo? Means what?	17:32
timeless_mbp	andre__: you want an alias entry for each failed report?	17:33
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Jaffa	andre__: There's only one extras-testing; and I'm not going to retype from HAM's error display if it's a known problem :-p	17:34
timeless_mbp	Jaffa: there's a log	17:34
timeless_mbp	you can saveas in the log view	17:34
andre__	timeless_mbp, obviously not.	17:34
andre__	but i don't want somebody mixing up my aliases.	17:34
Jaffa	timeless_mbp: Not sure it's showing the error	17:34
timeless_mbp	andre__: well clearly the first two are failures	17:34
timeless_mbp	Jaffa: if it isn't, please file a bug :)	17:35
andre__	yes. but that's my business as long as it's punting.	17:35
timeless_mbp	andre__: alright, suit yourself	17:35
* timeless_mbp ponders		17:35
timeless_mbp	so um...	17:35
Jaffa	Seems to be better now	17:35
timeless_mbp	i have two directory trees which are nearly identical	17:36
timeless_mbp	but not really	17:36
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timeless_mbp	s/real/entire/	17:36
infobot	timeless_mbp meant: but not entirely	17:36
timeless_mbp	hrm	17:37
timeless_mbp	maybe i'll just cheat :)	17:37
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timeless_mbp	right... so how do i cheat? :)	17:40
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ShadowJK	kirma, cover phone with hands, put hands+phone between thighs, squeeze for 5 minutes	17:41
ShadowJK	;)	17:41
kirma	you can't force developers to do that :)	17:41
ShadowJK	fwiw, on S60 the same thing results in every open app using GPRS closing/crashing	17:41
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tbf	jeremiah: any update on http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/dists/fremantle/Release ? thank you.	17:41
lbt	kirma: force? I thought they loved it that much...	17:42
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kirma	although it's probably not unfixable on linux side, I suspect considerable portion of the trouble extends to the radio firmware parts or even the network itself	17:43
ccooke	Hm. With the release firmware, my n900 seems to pick up greasy fingerprints more. I hope they fix that in the next release	17:43
kirma	especially if one expects the connections to recover with any sort of grace :)	17:43
* ccooke grins		17:43
tbf	Stskeeps: bugs.maemo.org already has a bug report about this instant contact search race condition	17:43
kirma	cooke :D	17:43
tbf	Stskeeps: go search for it and vote ;-)	17:43
kirma	does the device also feel heavier?	17:44
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ccooke	kirma: no, it's a little lighter. I guess they spent some time working on that.	17:44
tbf	Stskeeps: hmm? that bug shall be fixed already? https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5745	17:45
povbot	Bug 5745: Typing in newly opened window brings up contact search	17:45
ShadowJK	kirma, well, even detecting that the connection is dead and dropping it and creating a new one would be nice	17:45
Stskeeps	andre__: re 5745 i think that code is in hildon-desktop	17:45
Stskeeps	and public	17:45
Stskeeps	(in gitorious)	17:46
Flandry	Here's a random, apples-to-oranges question: how does the OMAP chipset in the N900 compare with a PIII 900 in "umph"?	17:46
derf	Poorly.	17:46
Flandry	approximately clock-matched?	17:46
ccooke	Flandry: wouldn't it be better to compare to something with a similar clock speed?	17:46
andre__	Stskeeps, oops, you are totally right	17:46
andre__	Stskeeps, mind to comment and correct me? :)	17:47
Flandry	Ok, vs PIII 400 then	17:47
ccooke	Flandry: a pIII 900 runs at approximately 900Mhz. The n900's standard high mark is 600	17:47
kirma	ShadowJK: yep... although more one thinks about the situation, less obvious it becomes how to do it. at least if there's no easy way to probe if the GPRS connection is alive, without causing data transmission...	17:47
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lbt	ccooke: specmarks though ... what can you do in a cycle on x86 vs arm	17:50
Andy80	hi all	17:50
Andy80	VDVsx: is it possible to see the list of people registered to the MaeBar event?	17:51
* lbt wondered about running a liblocation caching proxy on the device...		17:51
ccooke	lbt: I also wondered about that	17:51
Flandry	even a mips too mips would be useful	17:51
VDVsx	Andy80, atm no	17:51
Flandry	i guess i'll have to go look	17:52
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VDVsx	Andy80, need something or just curiosity ?	17:52
ccooke	lbt: integer rate for a lot of things is directly linked to clock rate. I think devices that are designed to run mostly at low clock rates are more clock-speed dependant than desktop devices	17:52
ccooke	not entirely, but a little	17:52
Andy80	VDVsx: uhm... both :P just to check if two people I know have registered and curiosity to see how many people registered	17:53
ccooke	basically, if you're optimising for lowest instruction rate possible you'll often only be using one integer unit at a time, regardless of the number you have	17:53
ccooke	and at that point, the biggest effects are pipeline speed and Mhz.	17:53
ccooke	s/speed/depth/	17:54
infobot	ccooke meant: and at that point, the biggest effects are pipeline depth and Mhz.	17:54
lbt	ccooke: mmm but pipelining and 'equivalent MHz' crap creeps in...	17:54
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kirma	flandry: Cortex-A8 does roughly 2.1 Dhrystone "MIPS" per megahertz if I remember right	17:54
VDVsx	Andy80, I can check if you want, send me the names in pvt	17:54
kirma	which is integer performance	17:54
ccooke	lbt: yeah	17:54
lbt	^^ kirma's benchmark is the kind of thing that makes sense :)	17:54
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RST38h	ccooke: independently of all that, once you go into memory, you are screwed though	17:55
ccooke	lbt: comparing architecture to architecture is useless unless they're in basically the same device and running the same software. Anything else is a rough comparison only. As long as you know that, it all works out about right ;-)	17:55
ccooke	lbt:/kirma: yes, quite.	17:55
ccooke	RST38h: naturally	17:55
Flandry	yeah i know it would be rough	17:56
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ccooke	RST38h: of course, where some CPUs have memory controllers built in...	17:56
Flandry	that's why i asked :D	17:56
kirma	it just gives some sort of idea of the scale... basically two integer-oriented pipes are issuing each one instruction per cycle, and the instructions can sometimes pack a bit more than one "dhrystone-sense operation" in one instruction	17:56
RST38h	ccooke: Does not matter, as long as you have got 166MHz top SDRAM clock	17:56
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tbf	Stskeeps: btw, thank you for complaining about 5745	17:56
ccooke	RST38h: it matters... a bit :-)	17:57
ccooke	enough to give an advantage	17:57
RST38h	ccooke: of course, a lot of cache helps, but ARMs historically did not have that	17:57
tbf	Stskeeps: you helped us to identify the cause for some regression in the PR1.1 image :-D	17:57
kirma	I think the NEON vector engine has rate of one ALU op plus one assignment per clock cycle	17:57
kirma	but it doesn't support double floats	17:57
Flandry	"rom what i read TI is claiming 1200 dhrystone MIPS for 600mhz which would place it alongside the PIII at 600mhz"	17:57
kirma	but then again, it supports vector formats	17:57
RST38h	kirma: That is easy to check, there is a paper on all that stuff	17:57
Stskeeps	tbf: ah, cool - rst started :P	17:57
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kirma	understanding how the fixed pipeline scheduling on Cortex-A8 took quite a while for me to understand	17:58
kirma	http://www.design-reuse.com/articles/11580/architecture-and-implementation-of-the-arm-cortex-a8-microprocessor.html	17:58
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kirma	it's also described on some ARM document, although I really figured it all out from some of these core compact presentations	17:59
RST38h	kirma, lbt: www.arm.com/miscPDFs/24588.pdf	17:59
derf	Nobody who cares about performance uses doubles.	17:59
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kirma	there are lots of devils on the details that affect real-world performance though	18:00
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crashanddie_	The battery on my N900 runs out after something like 6 hours	18:01
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RST38h	http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/4/2009/11/500x_f.jpg	18:01
lardman	crashanddie_: less porn	18:02
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crashanddie_	lardman: you mean nokia discriminates against master	18:02
Flandry	so it seems that at least in integer operations, PIII and OMAP are roughly equivalent	18:02
crashanddie_	bators?	18:02
qwerty12	crashanddie_: no, it's just you they hate	18:02
RST38h	Flandry: Not really	18:02
Flandry	that's not consistent with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instructions_per_second though, which has P3 at about 35% more	18:02
* RST38h shudders every time somebody makes this kind of comparison		18:03
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RST38h	ARM and x86 architectures are so different that you cannot directly compare	18:03
Flandry	oh come on you pedantic prudes	18:03
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lbt	Flandry: they are comparable rather than an order of magnitude apart	18:03
kirma	practically all non-Thumb ARM instructions can be conditional and ALU instructions can include complex barrel shifter features... which x86 does to some extent too	18:03
lbt	however, specifics of performance need to be based on a specific 'real world' benchmark	18:04
kirma	and of course the register pressure is smaller on ARM, but then again, modern x86s work around that a lot...	18:04
Jaffa	crashanddie_: Apparently the latest 42-11 image is "lots better"; but I'll remain to be convinced.	18:04
Flandry	i always liked ARM assembler better than x86	18:05
kirma	cache and memory subsystem characteristics and even compiler can affect the performance quite a bit	18:05
lbt	chances are a PIII and an ARM will be similar (ie within a factor of ~2)	18:05
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* mgedmin sighs, reflashing is painful, now I need to make backups		18:05
Flandry	but anyway i have intel benchmarks and want to make estimates for N900 perf, so that's close enough, thanks	18:05
lardman	Flandry: what are you comparing against?	18:06
lbt	Flandry: now, comparing a multi-cpu Quad-core Xeon with SSDs to an N900... you'd notice some lag on the N900	18:06
lardman	A desktop CPU?	18:06
CShadowRun	Isn't the N900 supposed to be out today?	18:06
lbt	CShadowRun: mine's out on my desk	18:06
Flandry	looking at MAME bencmarks	18:06
CShadowRun	lbt in uk	18:06
lbt	Flandry: aha	18:06
CShadowRun	it still says preorder on the nokia site	18:06
* lbt is in Reading		18:06
CShadowRun	:o	18:06
CShadowRun	you have a prerelease model?	18:07
* lbt grins		18:07
CShadowRun	hehe	18:07
* lbt takes a photo of a kiwi		18:07
* CShadowRun stabs		18:07
aquatix	poor kiwi	18:08
kirma	it's reasonably easy to calculate maximum amount of operations something like Cortex-A8 could perform on optimal conditions, and it's also bearable to do that on any x86 microarchitecture... but most of the time, those numbers don't matter	18:08
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lbt	http://www.flickr.com/photos/96141280@N00/4108907269/	18:09
lbt	CShadowRun: ^^	18:10
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aquatix	lbt: it's... blurry	18:10
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CShadowRun	That kiwi is evil.	18:10
aquatix	lbt: you sure it isn't a photoshop job?	18:10
Jaffa	crashanddie_: Happy to meet up ahead of tomorrow for a beer, cos I'll finish work at 6ish and apart from removal of shirt and addition of T-shirt, footloose and fancy free	18:10
lbt	it's furry, not blurry	18:10
aquatix	i say it's both, but fair enough	18:11
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CShadowRun	I'm still pondering if i should get mine on contract or not xD	18:11
lardman	where are you beering Jaffa?	18:11
CShadowRun	I probably won't use that much internet or phone lol	18:11
* lbt is on Asda PAYG		18:11
CShadowRun	lbt what's the deal on that?	18:11
lbt	use wifi when possible and GPRS on the train	18:11
lbt	20p/Mb	18:11
lbt	cheap calls	18:12
CShadowRun	yea, that's mad	18:12
CShadowRun	I really want something like 2GB a month	18:12
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lbt	sure - if you can't get wifi then you need that	18:12
* aquatix is happy with his flat-fee mobile internet		18:12
aquatix	not sure what the max is on that though	18:12
* CoreFusion- as well		18:12
CShadowRun	yea, i will have wifi most of the time	18:12
CShadowRun	but when i don't have wifi it needs to be my "main" connection	18:12
lbt	there's a wiki page on the various tariffs	18:13
CoreFusion-	i have 384kbit/s at 9.8euros/month	18:13
* aquatix 768kbit/s for 7EUR/month		18:13
* aquatix happy camper		18:13
CoreFusion-	but currently my connection is working at 2mbit/s P	18:14
aquatix	generally only use gprs though	18:14
lbt	http://wiki.maemo.org/Data_plans	18:14
aquatix	CoreFusion-: you h4xx0r ;)	18:14
CoreFusion-	aquatix: hehe, i don't know why it is doing that, but i don't mind :D	18:14
CShadowRun	lbt yea, problem is they all do something lame	18:14
CShadowRun	filtering certain types of traffic, costing too much, or having ridiculously low limits	18:14
lbt	nod	18:14
Khertan	.fi ... of course	18:14
Khertan	:)	18:14
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* mgedmin got 512 Mbit/s for 6.5 EUR/month		18:15
lbt	I agree - hence not using any of them :)	18:15
mgedmin	s/M/K/	18:15
CShadowRun	I wouldn't mind PAYG but not at 20p/mb	18:15
CShadowRun	That's like 20p for loading one webpae	18:15
CShadowRun	webpage*	18:15
aquatix	mgedmin: lol, i was baffled for a moment there :)	18:15
* Khertan got 20Ko/s for 26 Euros by month		18:15
lbt	it depends...	18:15
mgedmin	note to self: infobot can't handle actions	18:15
Ceron^	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl9u-h_btBo fuking heell!	18:15
lbt	I really don't use it in many places I can't get wifi	18:15
aquatix	Khertan: ? :/	18:16
CShadowRun	£5/gb or something would be reasonable lol	18:16
mgedmin	also, s/6/8/	18:16
CoreFusion-	lbt: about that list, i have the Saunalahti Mobiililaajakaista, but it says on wiki that all p2p traffic is forbidden, i haven't noticed anything like that :D	18:17
Khertan	aquatix: yep sfr ... (elle s est pas faire)	18:17
mgedmin	and s/.5/.7/	18:17
aquatix	Khertan: sounds painful	18:17
Khertan	aquatix: yep	18:17
lbt	CoreFusion-: so did you update it?	18:17
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Khertan	aquatix: sometime i got 2Mb/s ... but ... most of the time only 20ko/s	18:17
* lbt slaps CoreFusion- with a wiki-fish		18:18
CShadowRun	lbt i remember liking the sound of the t-mobile ones, they give you a small amount of bandwith and if you go over they throttle you right?	18:18
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* aquatix actually gets the 768Kbit/s when he tries		18:18
CoreFusion-	lbt: no, jsut wondering that the source is?	18:18
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aquatix	but reception at work is not ideal	18:18
lbt	CoreFusion-: helpful community member :)	18:18
CoreFusion-	that=what*	18:18
aquatix	however, i've internet there anyway ;)	18:18
lbt	CShadowRun: I think t-mobile coverage is an issue for me	18:18
AndrewFBlack	I noticed some people talking about a firmware update on n900 does it require you ot flash your phone or is it in app manager	18:19
CShadowRun	ah :(	18:19
lbt	no phone/3g at home :(	18:19
crashanddie_	Jaffa: unless anyone can come up with something I could talk about, I have no clue what to say	18:19
aquatix	lbt: none at all? ick	18:19
CoreFusion-	what does FUP mean at the data limit section?	18:20
lbt	aquatix: too weak	18:20
* aquatix has his cellphone as primary phone		18:20
aquatix	it'd better work at home :)	18:20
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CShadowRun	lbt t-mobile coverage looks pretty good in kent	18:20
CShadowRun	(which is really the only place i'm gonna be)	18:21
korius	AndrewFBlack: http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_firmware	18:21
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mgedmin	except that SSU doesn't apply here: the devices we got in Amsterdam don't support SSU since "there are changes required at lower levels of the software stack" (paraphrasing)	18:22
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CShadowRun	Very good 3g, excellent 2g in my street apparently	18:22
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CoreFusion-	lbt: i found the reason for that p2p forbidden stuff in wiki... it actually says so in the operators website :D haha, but it's not blocked, just forbidden	18:23
AndrewFBlack	I didn't get mine from Amsterdam but i would assume mine is the same I'm not sure	18:23
aquatix	mgedmin: SSU?	18:23
mgedmin	seamless software update	18:23
aquatix	ah right	18:23
mgedmin	http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_firmware#Seamless_Software_Update actually	18:23
aquatix	check	18:24
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lbt	CoreFusion-: worth an update then ;)	18:27
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CoreFusion-	lbt: maybe not... i just hope that they don't make me pay extra for this month as i dl 3gb yesterday alone... :/	18:28
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* lbt would cut you off if he ran a mobile data service provider ;)		18:30
CoreFusion-	:P	18:31
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Ceron^	http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3d/BarringtonJudge.jpg <- typical maemo user	18:31
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CoreFusion-	i only dl'd the vmware workstation trial and the maemo sdk virtual image	18:32
CoreFusion-	and then the new top gear episode :P	18:32
* Jaffa watched that live after Doctor Who :)		18:33
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Andy80	anyone knows when the Maemo Summit videos will be available?	18:33
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alterego	Heh	18:34
* lardman feels happy at removing 150 emails from his inbox		18:34
* qwerty12 curses lardman for adding one to his inbox		18:35
CoreFusion-	hmm.. anyone uses spotify?	18:37
aquatix	there's an app for that	18:37
* aquatix runs		18:37
Jaffa	CoreFusion-: Once a week or so	18:37
CoreFusion-	can you send me an invite? :D	18:37
Jaffa	I dunno, can I?	18:38
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Jaffa	CoreFusion-: "I have 0 invitations"	18:38
CoreFusion-	I don't know :P	18:38
CoreFusion-	:/	18:38
LoCusF	does anyone know if there is a video with the alarm clock on N900 :) ?	18:38
Andy80	CoreFusion-: it's free... but depend where are you from... for example I can use here in Spain but cannot when I come back to Italy :)	18:39
Andy80	:(	18:39
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CoreFusion-	when i got to spotify.com it says that i have to pay or use an invite	18:40
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CoreFusion-	Spotify Free	18:40
CoreFusion-	Requires an invite	18:40
Andy80	CoreFusion-: where are you from?	18:40
CoreFusion-	finland	18:40
Andy80	it depends where you connect from	18:40
Andy80	ok... then it's not available in your country	18:41
mgedmin	does reflashing wipe /home?	18:41
mikhas	not here	18:41
mgedmin	I extracted the eMMC fiasco image and it seems it only has a single vfat image of the /home/MyDocs partition	18:41
qwerty12	mgedmin: Only if you flash the eMMC	18:41
mgedmin	qwerty12, ^	18:41
mgedmin	ah, okay, interesting	18:42
mikhas	but I wouldnt not rely on that =)	18:42
Andy80	mgedmin: it contains only maps	18:42
mikhas	s/wouldnt/would	18:42
lbt	Andy80: no, I'm pretty disappointed about the summit videos...	18:43
lbt	someone volunteered to edit them but I'd rather see naff raw video than nothing	18:43
lbt	upload the things somewhere, put som instructions on the wiki and let the community edit them	18:44
mikhas	oh that could be fun	18:45
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mikhas	"funniest edit wins"	18:45
lbt	sure the 'professional' guys screwed up - but come on...	18:45
lbt	heh	18:45
Andy80	lbt: it's not so easy... it's Gb and Gb of files :P	18:45
lardman	last time I flashed the emmc it didn't wipe the card, all my mp3s, etc were left there	18:45
lbt	Andy80: p2p ?	18:45
* lbt has Tb and Tb		18:45
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qwerty12	maemo.org BitTorrent Tracker	18:46
lbt	yep - it is exactly what p2p is good at...	18:46
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lbt	and when we're done it'll be a few Mb	18:46
Andy80	you have to upload them somewhere, to make them available via torrent...	18:46
lbt	no you don't	18:46
lbt	you have to seed them but that's all	18:47
lbt	sure it'd take a day or several....	18:47
lbt	but we'll be having the next summit at this rate...	18:47
* lbt stops ranting now :D		18:48
Andy80	lbt: please propose this solution to maemo	18:48
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Andy80	maemo-community mailing list	18:48
Andy80	and let's see :)	18:48
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waz2	oh, engadget has reviewed n900. Uber-bias included?)	19:03
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KMFDM	i would love to help try out apps in extra-testing. if the repo ever successfully loaded	19:27
andre__	loaded where?	19:28
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CutMeOwnThroat	onto the truck	19:28
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andre__	where do you want to bring it?	19:29
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Jaffa	KMFDM: "Unable to load .../repository" error? It went away for me the next time I said "Refresh"	19:31
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KMFDM	Jaffa, i've had that for 2 weeks	19:34
KMFDM	i've refreshed about 16 times	19:34
KMFDM	in those 2 weeks	19:34
KMFDM	i'll be upgrading my firmware sometime this week. I'm hoping that will somehow fix it	19:34
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Stskeeps	KMFDM: i have experienced that when my router was corrupting my DNS requests	19:36
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lardman	Khertan: ping	19:54
wazd	Engadget is so engadget	19:55
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greenfly	wazd: review seemed pretty positive to me	19:56
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dmj726	Engadget seemed pretty schizophrenic to me.	20:02
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RST38h	reMoo	20:04
RST38h	wazd: "such an..." =)	20:04
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waz2	I bought HD2 hate me gagaga	20:07
RST38h	Show us the proofpic! =)	20:07
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waz2	RST38h: damn)	20:08
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RST38h	hehe	20:08
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waz2	RST38h: but everything can happen :P	20:09
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RST38h	yea, although some things are just less probable than others	20:10
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waz2	RST38h: if hd2 will cost less than n900 - why not?)	20:11
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Khertan_n900	Hi ! again	20:13
RST38h	wazd: It will not afaik	20:13
Khertan_n900	i ve a memory hole ... does there is a way to clone a gtk object in python ?	20:14
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Khertan_n900	ps : it s amazing to see how battery was improve with the last firmware	20:15
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RST38h	Could somebody remind me where N900 IMEI is?	20:17
waz3	RST38h: even if it will cost the same - I'll consider it) Back to	20:17
RST38h	It has got a bigger screen, indeed	20:17
RST38h	But WinMo is a complete disaster	20:17
waz3	Back to consumer world :D	20:17
RST38h	Even in the consumer world, WinMo is horror	20:18
Khertan_n900	rst38h : parameters -> product info	20:18
lardman	Khertan_n900: what's the difference between mtasks and mtodos?	20:18
waz3	I think android will be available soon	20:18
RST38h	Khertan: thanks =)	20:18
RST38h	Obvious!	20:18
Khertan_n900	lardman haha :)	20:18
waz3	XDA power :)	20:18
Khertan_n900	lardman : mtasks is a task manager based on priority	20:18
Khertan_n900	of task	20:18
lardman	I'm just looking for some code to bastardise and make into a hierarchical system	20:19
Khertan_n900	and mtodos on the due dates with an other organization with quick access	20:19
Khertan_n900	of todo now and todo later	20:19
lardman	mtasks has dates too though it looks like?	20:19
Khertan_n900	lardman : do not based your code on mtasks nor mtodos	20:20
lardman	lol	20:20
lardman	ok	20:20
Khertan_n900	it use a specifics database to store info	20:20
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lardman	sqlite?	20:20
Khertan_n900	it s really the wrong way to do it	20:20
Khertan_n900	yep sqlite	20:20
lardman	oh, right, why is that?	20:20
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Khertan_n900	i ve done a small framework to store taks,events and memo in a vcalendar db file	20:21
Khertan_n900	it s better	20:21
Khertan_n900	and i ll base next mtodo release on it	20:21
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RST38h	Folks, should I download GLOBAL or USA? What is the difference?	20:21
lardman	Khertan: hmm ok, not sure how well my plan would fit in vCal, but who knows	20:22
lardman	Khertan: I guess custom fields are allowed	20:22
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Khertan_n900	yep	20:22
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lardman	when do you plan to release?	20:23
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Khertan_n900	maybe for hierarchical tasks/todos it ll be not the best way to use vcal format	20:23
lardman	yeah	20:23
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Khertan_n900	lardman don t know	20:23
Khertan_n900	:)	20:23
lardman	np	20:23
Khertan_n900	maybe i can give you the current code	20:24
lardman	I am wondering how to handle leaf nodes which are attached to more than one tree	20:24
* RST38h will got for the GLOBAL release, fuck it all...		20:24
* lardman considers using the tree part of GtkTreeView for this		20:24
lardman	RST38h: GLOBAL has the real Paris in it ;)	20:25
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RST38h	lardman: But no Podunk, CT?	20:27
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lardman	well that too I guess ;)	20:27
qwerty12	RST38h: I'd say that's a feature, looking at the name...	20:27
* lardman guesses CT is Conneticutt (or however it's spelled)		20:27
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lardman	right, bbl, supper and cooking and washing up and reboot beckons	20:28
lardman	:)	20:28
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Khertan_n900_	sorry connection drops	20:29
* RST38h idly adding Cancel option to accelerometer calibrator		20:29
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Khertan_n900_	mine is block on left left left left	20:30
Khertan_n900_	where is the acceleroeters calibrator ?	20:30
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Khertan_n900_	and left	20:30
RST38h	Khertan: Download any of my stuff from -Devel	20:30
Khertan_n900_	and sometime left	20:30
Khertan_n900_	:) oki	20:30
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Khertan_n900_	thx	20:30
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RST38h	Khertan: And, BTW, can I ask you to vote for MG in -Testing, if you have got an N900 to test it? =)	20:31
Khertan_n900_	an rst38h package ?	20:31
* RST38h needs two more votes		20:31
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Khertan_n900_	MG ?	20:31
RST38h	Khertan: In -devel, look for these: VGBA,VGB,iNES,MG,Speccy,fMSX,ColEm	20:31
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Khertan_n900_	ah ok	20:32
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RST38h	actually, you can test the -devel version and vote for -testing one, they are essentially the same :)	20:32
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RST38h	In related news, "iPhone app debuts for plastic surgery enthusiasts"	20:33
Khertan_n900_	what is exactly MG ? i didn t see it in testing	20:33
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RST38h	Khertan: It is a SEGA GameGear/MasterSystem emulator	20:34
Khertan_n900_	oki	20:34
RST38h	Khertan: I think you may know SMS as MegaDrive8	20:34
RST38h	That was the European name, I guess	20:34
Khertan_n900_	yep	20:35
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wazd	RST38h: megadrive= genesis	20:35
Khertan_n900_	euh no in france it was master system for the 8bit	20:35
Khertan_n900_	and megadrive for the 16 bits	20:35
RST38h	wazd: That is MegaDrive16. The only reason why "16" got lost is because it is so much more popular	20:35
wazd	RST38h: ah)	20:36
RST38h	SMS kinda flickered and was gone...	20:36
Khertan_n900_	and MegaDriveCD for the upgrade	20:36
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RST38h	Yeah, and there was a keyboard for the Genesis too ;)	20:36
Khertan_n900_	hum i ll try it tommorow when i ll be able to got a rom	20:36
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RST38h	BTW, SMS had a keyboard and a BASIC too, MG will emulate those	20:37
Khertan_n900_	anyway someone know to clone / duplicate / copy a gtk.TextBuffer i python	20:37
Khertan_n900_	as using copy module do not do it	20:37
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Shapeshifter	Is there already scummvm for the n900?	20:40
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RST38h	yep	20:40
CrashedMicrob	re	20:40
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CrashedMicrob	sorry just got a crash of microb	20:40
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Shapeshifter	cool.	20:41
Shapeshifter	very cool.	20:41
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Shapeshifter	Looking forward to playing some day of the tentacle.	20:41
Khertan_n900	so no answer while i was dropped ?	20:41
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zaheerm	Jaffa, awesome your suggestion got python optified in -devel	20:44
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vanksi	are there any alternative email clients that support exchange than the nokia supplied mfe?	20:57
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vanksi	and is anyone porting vpnc to maeno 5?	20:57
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andre__	vanksi, http://maemo.org/packages/view/vpnc/	21:03
andre__	note though that the package is in extras-devel. it can be highly unstable, kill your device, hence not recommended to end-users until it has reached the Extras repository	21:04
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Shapeshifter	mhh, by the way: Is there a way to tell the n900 to connect to APs automatically if any are available when unlocking the device?	21:09
Shapeshifter	and does the "network manager" support execution of commands after or before connecting to the AP?	21:09
javispedro	it connects to APs automatically always.	21:10
Stskeeps	javispedro: were you the wpasupplicant icd guy?	21:10
Shapeshifter	similar to PRE_UP POST_UP PRE_DOWN POST_DOWN in netcfg from arch for those who know it.	21:10
javispedro	yeah, that one.	21:10
Shapeshifter	javispedro: always? can't I turn it off?	21:10
Stskeeps	javispedro: think it'd work on fremantle and how much configuration would it require? :P	21:10
_berto_	when was Maemo-Display-Name first introduced in debian/control ??	21:10
Shapeshifter	I mean, I probably don't need it to be connected to APs while it's in my pocket.	21:10
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Shapeshifter	or doesn't it drain the battery really?	21:11
javispedro	Stskeeps: dunno. Hopefully recompile. I was cleaning some of the complexity that is now useless with n900's new wi-fi kmod.	21:11
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Stskeeps	javispedro: just pondering cos it might be useful on zoom2 or beagleboard	21:11
javispedro	icd2 closed though..	21:12
Stskeeps	yeah, not an issue with this particular port	21:12
Stskeeps	(icd2 is in nokia-binaries)	21:12
javispedro	Shapeshifter: when I got my N810 I was surprised it would spent all 24h online. Now (10 months after) I think that a gadget not doing that is useless.	21:13
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Shapeshifter	javispedro: okay ^^	21:14
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Shapeshifter	javispedro: I was more thinking that for the regular automatic online-checking stuff that the phone does even in my pocket, 3g/edge would be enough	21:15
Shapeshifter	Specially when moving there's no point really from wlan.	21:15
javispedro	Stskeeps: well, current version has a dependency on modified wlancond that shouldn't be needed in n900. I can't promise when I'm going to work on it though (but probably soon after I get actual hardware and have to get the device to connect to my uni's network :P )	21:16
javispedro	Shapeshifter: I'm pretty sure WLAN uses less battery.	21:16
lopz	hi ;)	21:16
Stskeeps	javispedro: k	21:17
Shapeshifter	mhh. I think it would be neat anyway if it was possible to turn off 3G depending on rules, for example when a specific AP is present. If that is not possible I'll probably work on it.	21:17
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jeremiah_	Looks like Diablo packages should be getting pushed into extras-devel finally.	21:17
Shapeshifter	because at my uni there's wlan everywhere and the ESSID is the same everywhere and it should connect automatically. Then it should turn off 3G	21:17
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jeremiah_	Garage's diablo monitor most have fallen over.	21:17
Stskeeps	found the issue?	21:18
jeremiah_	Stskeeps: Yeah, I think so.	21:18
Stskeeps	and it's not caused by a conspiracy from the communist cabal? :P	21:18
jeremiah_	There was a file holding a pid - and the script checked if the file existed	21:18
jeremiah_	But not if the pid existed!	21:18
Stskeeps	ah	21:18
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jeremiah_	So the pid was gone, but the script kept thinking it was running.	21:18
jeremiah_	So it wouldn't start, blah blah blah	21:18
Stskeeps	probably why yeah	21:19
jeremiah_	I think things should be working, but I would love someone to check quickly :)	21:19
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jeremiah_	I would be much obliged.	21:19
Stskeeps	i'm sure the guys in the t.m.o threads will help	21:19
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jeremiah_	Stskeeps: heh	21:19
Stskeeps	-s	21:20
jeremiah_	They have been very helpful.	21:20
jeremiah_	So considerate	21:20
jeremiah_	and thoughtful	21:20
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jeremiah_	WHY IS MY PACKAGE GOING TO /dev/null!??!?!?ONE!111	21:20
qwerty12_N810	jeremiah_: That's only their way of saying "I love you"	21:20
jeremiah_	qwerty12_N810: :)	21:21
javispedro	WHAT? MY PACKAGE WENT TO /dev/null????	21:21
Jaffa	_berto_: ages ago	21:21
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jeremiah_	Its a special place we keep for the naughty packages.	21:21
jeremiah_	If garage is suddenly slow, er, slower, you'll know why.	21:22
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Stskeeps	/dev/null being full? :P	21:22
jeremiah_	heh	21:22
jeremiah_	exactluy	21:22
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Stskeeps	i have actually encountered that one	21:23
jeremiah_	For real?	21:23
Stskeeps	deleted /dev/null by accident	21:23
jeremiah_	oh	21:23
Stskeeps	then it keeps on filling up	21:23
javispedro	and they say maemo.org is more open than the iphone app store! as open as /dev/null ! ;)	21:23
jeremiah_	because it was linked to a real space	21:23
RST38h	Oh the horror, the suffering: my N900 is too old for the normal update to 42.11	21:23
javispedro	not released and too old already.	21:24
Jaffa	RST38h: On fremantle-stars?	21:24
qwerty12_N810	RST38h: Daniel's e-mail or Navifirm...	21:24
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RST38h	javispedro: Your package went to /dev/random and the world entripy ate it!	21:24
RST38h	Jaffa,qwerty: yea, that is what I am doing :)	21:24
RST38h	BTW, is eMMC image worth updating?	21:24
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Jaffa	RST38h: I've not seen anything massively different yet	21:24
* qwerty12_N810 didn't update his eMMC		21:25
* Jaffa wouldn't have bothered TBH		21:25
qwerty12_N810	I have no need for the latest N900 demo video, or the latest User Guide	21:25
RST38h	true	21:25
RST38h	although partitioning may have changed	21:25
* Jaffa wonders what wazd means by "absolute disrespect and ignorance" - I only get the "replied to thread" email		21:25
Jaffa	RST38h: Let me SSH into my newly installed SSHable N900 and do a df -h for you	21:26
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jeremiah_	I didn't update my eMMC either.	21:26
jeremiah_	And though I flashed my device, it dropped into some crazy cyclical reboots	21:26
RST38h	don't you at least have to wipe /opt?	21:26
jeremiah_	So I wonder if I really updated.	21:27
Jaffa	RST38h: Yeah, ideally you'd have to wipe /opt	21:27
Jaffa	Partitioning looks no different	21:27
* Jaffa wishes ssh-server kept its keys as part of the backup, so he didn't have to edit known_hosts on every box now the signature has changed.		21:27
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Jaffa	Oh, and /home/user/.ssh	21:28
qwerty12_N810	Jaffa: We hereby nominate you as our official eMMC flash image tester	21:28
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aSIMULAter	:P	21:29
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Jaffa	qwerty12_N810: What an honour	21:30
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Jaffa	wazd: what's up? saw your "disrespect and ignorance" message (but not read the whole thread)	21:31
wazd	Jaffa: ah, never mind	21:32
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wazd	Jaffa: absolute silence from ddp or quim	21:32
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Shapeshifter	wazd: what happened	21:32
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* timeless_mbp_ looks for tim samoff		21:33
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dmj726	hey zaheerm	21:34
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wazd	Jaffa: so I'd better quit expecting anything and keep doing things I do best - helping for fun	21:35
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RST38h	ok, skipping emmc	21:37
RST38h	wazd: you may order to my US address if you wish	21:38
javispedro	wouldn't you believe i'm actually learning from the tmo god thread	21:38
RST38h	wazd: the closest delivery is going to be in January though	21:38
qwerty12_N810	javispedro: You too?	21:38
Jaffa	Oh god, there's a tmo god thread.	21:38
wazd	RST38h: I can't order anything	21:38
Jaffa	Perhaps one not for the digest ;-)	21:38
javispedro	Jaffa: yes, it's growing as a community!	21:39
RST38h	wazd: I suspect that if you change address to US, it will work	21:39
RST38h	javispedro: learning what?	21:39
javispedro	RST38h: about the concept of a "masochistic and sadistic" god	21:39
RST38h	javispedro: that's not new	21:39
javispedro	hey, just one post read so far :)	21:40
wazd	RST38h: I'm sick of trying to get any info what to do, screw it	21:40
RST38h	javispedro: Arthur Schopenhauer	21:40
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RST38h	wazd: Well, just means somebody has to talk to them, somebody they listen to	21:41
RST38h	wazd: May I suggest talking to tekojo?	21:41
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RST38h	wazd: Just calmly describe the situation and say that you can supply DPP with a US based address if they do not like .RU address	21:42
Klowner	ooh, $50 rebate!	21:42
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timeless_mbp	Jaffa: ping	21:43
timeless_mbp	Jaffa: did you know that you can hold the shift key on the keyboard while tapping an item in the web browser?	21:44
Jaffa	timeless_mbp: Oooh. What it does it do?	21:44
timeless_mbp	it sends a right-ish-click to the content area	21:44
timeless_mbp	if the content area doesn't trap it, it's a left click	21:44
Jaffa	Interesting.	21:45
Jaffa	Food time.	21:45
timeless_mbp	but in the main portion of google maps, it does something more useful :)	21:45
Shapeshifter	wooooo n900 price dropped once more here. I'm now at just 488 Euros for the phone including 1 year of subscription whith 1gb traffic.	21:45
* Jaffa found a weird keyboard input bug.		21:45
* RST38h still wants Ctrl+Shift+I as an about:config option		21:45
RST38h	Please please please	21:45
timeless_mbp	c-s-i is typically domI	21:45
RST38h	Shapeshifter: is VAT included?	21:45
Shapeshifter	RST38h: yeah. Well, no "VAT" here, but yes, that's the final subsides price + subscription costs for 12 months.	21:46
Shapeshifter	*subsidised	21:46
Jaffa	timeless_mbp: 1) http://www.renderengine.com/demos.php 2) Click "Try it out!" on "Asteroid Clone"; 3) Press Enter; 4) Cursor keys scroll page; (5: think how cool it'd be with portrait browsing)	21:46
timeless_mbp	Shapeshifter: is 488eur actually a good deal?	21:46
RST38h	It is comparable to the DPP subsudized price	21:46
* Klowner gingerly prints out $50 MIR		21:46
timeless_mbp	Jaffa: sp3000 has portrait browsing	21:46
Shapeshifter	timeless_mbp: very	21:46
* timeless_mbp had it on a device but the device was reflashed and is now on loan		21:46
RST38h	Jaffa: Portrait browsing has been already implemented at the time of the summit	21:46
Jaffa	timeless_mbp: Anyway, the browser traps the cursor keys and the JS never gets them :-(	21:47
RST38h	Jaffa: Just not enabled in firmwares	21:47
timeless_mbp	Jaffa: switch to interaction mode	21:47
Jaffa	RST38h: Yeah, I know.	21:47
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timeless_mbp	that causes the web page to get first swing at keys	21:47
Jaffa	timeless_mbp: Ah, with the arrow cross thing?	21:47
timeless_mbp	e.g. for google reader	21:47
Jaffa	Cool	21:47
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Jaffa	RST38h: QA's a bitch, eh?	21:47
RST38h	Jaffa: UX, not QA	21:47
timeless_mbp	UX/mgmt	21:48
timeless_mbp	they wanted to make sure we removed enough dialogs	21:48
timeless_mbp	QA was relatively happy w/ it	21:48
timeless_mbp	mgmt pushed us to get it into Sales	21:48
timeless_mbp	but then backed off at the last minute	21:48
* RST38h does not quite understand Maemo UX obsession with removing features		21:49
qwerty12_N810	RST38h: I know... Just look at Bugzilla	21:49
RST38h	If making things simpler is the goal, it can be done in a much more intelligent way, with "Advanced" settings	21:49
RST38h	qwerty: from xterm to filemanager, eh?	21:49
Stskeeps	waz1: prod	21:49
qwerty12_N810	RST38h: Yep...	21:50
qwerty12_N810	Stupid.	21:50
waz1	Stskeeps: what?)	21:50
Stskeeps	waz1: status area on mer, how should it look? what should it contain? :)	21:50
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timeless_mbp	Stskeeps: nothing!	21:50
timeless_mbp	but i want a decent screen saver clock	21:50
Stskeeps	timeless_mbp: that's what it currently does	21:50
Stskeeps	:P	21:50
timeless_mbp	one that doesn't use backlight	21:50
timeless_mbp	but has BIG letters so i can read it	21:51
qwerty12_N810	timeless_mbp: You're not one of them (UX guy)?	21:51
timeless_mbp	qwerty12_N810: i'm an engineer	21:51
* Stskeeps isn't actually sure what timeless_mbp exactly does		21:51
timeless_mbp	and i'm abused/ignored like any other consultant	21:51
RST38h	iPhone 'home' button earrings	21:51
timeless_mbp	Stskeeps: at this point i'm more of a communications guy :)	21:51
qwerty12_N810	timeless_mbp: Ah, your "nothing!" response had me worried there for a moment	21:51
RST38h	Mhhmmm	21:51
timeless_mbp	i'm proofing "web design guidelines"	21:51
timeless_mbp	and tomorrow i get to try to figure out how 3 other communication channels got garbled	21:52
waz1	Stskeeps: well, depends on what goal we try to reach. If 100% fremantle copy then solution is obvious)	21:52
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* RST38h waits for "/ 100% full" error		21:53
timeless_mbp	Stskeeps: you should support the same api maemo5 does	21:53
timeless_mbp	but actually let people hide things	21:53
* Jaffa is thinking of trying the optified Python, since it was his damned idea which has been implemented		21:53
timeless_mbp	like w7 and friends do	21:53
Jaffa	(thanks lizardo)	21:53
timeless_mbp	Jaffa: heh, good for you	21:53
Stskeeps	waz1: we can have our own personality though :P	21:54
waz1	Stskeeps: hmm...	21:54
qwerty12_N810	Jaffa: I, hating the space Python took, thank both you and lizardo	21:54
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timeless_mbp	Stskeeps: out of the box, i'd say Clock, Alarms, Network, Battery, Bluetooth, GPS, and Presence	21:54
timeless_mbp	which is basically the same set that nokia has	21:54
timeless_mbp	the explanations:	21:54
timeless_mbp	wifi/gprs eat battery	21:54
timeless_mbp	gps eats batter	21:55
timeless_mbp	s/r/ry/	21:55
infobot	timeless_mbp meant: gps eats battery	21:55
timeless_mbp	presence eats battery	21:55
timeless_mbp	alarms can hurt your ears	21:55
waz1	Stskeeps: maybe we can make whole taskbar thinner, while keeping hotspots the same	21:55
timeless_mbp	bluetooth eats battery and can surprise you	21:55
javispedro	RST38h: so, this removing features bad habit may come from gnome guys.	21:55
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timeless_mbp	javispedro: it doesn't	21:55
timeless_mbp	the ui designers are finns from a local uni	21:55
timeless_mbp	they don't deal w/ gnomites	21:55
RST38h	javispedro: I would blame S60	21:55
javispedro	heh	21:56
timeless_mbp	and for fremantle none of the (afaik) had anything to do w/ s60	21:56
timeless_mbp	historically we had some ui/ux people from s90	21:56
RST38h	the new UI surely looks like S60, and the APIs also look like Avkon	21:56
qwerty12_N810	timeless_mbp: 'cept the icons? =)	21:56
timeless_mbp	the artwork for maemo5 is indeed s60	21:56
suihkulokki	timeless_mbp: bluetooth also impurifies and saps your bodily fluids?	21:56
timeless_mbp	qwerty12_N810: bah, give me some time to type won't ya?	21:56
qwerty12_N810	:p	21:56
timeless_mbp	oh, and usb connected	21:57
timeless_mbp	basically, i don't think any of the default status components shouldn't be displayed if they're active	21:57
timeless_mbp	(by default)	21:57
timeless_mbp	but if a user wants to, let them hide them	21:57
timeless_mbp	the policy for portrait is stricter	21:57
timeless_mbp	and people should remember my pictures that explain why	21:58
timeless_mbp	(also syncing when active should appear, again because it can drain battery)	21:58
timeless_mbp	if anyone here hasn't heard the story of MfE draining battery...	21:58
waz1	Stskeeps: I'll try to mock something up when I'll reach desktop pc	21:58
timeless_mbp	basically if you change your Exchange server password on another system	21:58
Stskeeps	waz1: sounds good	21:59
timeless_mbp	then mail sync would fail to get mail (duh)	21:59
timeless_mbp	when it fails, it tries again	21:59
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timeless_mbp	when it fails, it tries again (again, forever)	21:59
timeless_mbp	your device heats up and your battery drains really fast :)	21:59
timeless_mbp	so knowing that syncing is active is really important! :)	21:59
timeless_mbp	oh, obviously being in a 'silent' profile should be visible too...	22:00
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timeless_mbp	since you want a visual reminder that you'll miss calls if you don't watch your phone	22:00
qwerty12_N810	timeless_mbp: That's just the secret feature designed for keeping people warm during Helsinki winters	22:00
* timeless_mbp has missed calls for days because of this		22:00
Shapeshifter	and an R for roaming.	22:00
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timeless_mbp	Shapeshifter: not really actually	22:00
Stskeeps	r&d mode with serial enabled is excellent for keeping your hands warm	22:00
timeless_mbp	usually you know when you start roaming	22:00
timeless_mbp	and you don't usually transition between roaming and not roaming	22:01
timeless_mbp	qwerty12_N810: someone recently figured out the advantage of the n900 over other touch phones	22:01
timeless_mbp	... it works in the winter in helsinki (or anywhere else in Finland)	22:01
timeless_mbp	... with gloves on :)	22:01
Shapeshifter	timeless_mbp: depending on the phone and options it supports, people at borders of countries struggle with roaming	22:01
qwerty12_N810	timeless_mbp: grin	22:01
Shapeshifter	and receive bills in the hundrets because of it	22:01
lcuk	i thought that was well known reason for resistive?	22:01
timeless_mbp	qwerty12_N810: i've loved that feature for over a month :)	22:01
timeless_mbp	lcuk: someone mentioned reading in a forum recently where someone discovered this	22:02
lcuk	it will get rediscovered every year :)	22:02
timeless_mbp	Shapeshifter: the n900 lets you disable data roaming	22:02
Shapeshifter	happened here all the time. The provider I worked for now even disabled roaming by default because people living at the border would pick up a romaing signal instead of their own.	22:02
* timeless_mbp chuckles		22:02
timeless_mbp	there were some stories of people near cruise liners getting billed for super roaming	22:02
* microlith boggles at nokia		22:02
timeless_mbp	because the tower on the docked boat was capturing their signal	22:02
Shapeshifter	timeless_mbp: yeah but still, same for normal calls. I mean, I don't care, as I don't live at the border and don't do many calls anyway, but I find it a needed feature to see that roaming is enabled	22:03
microlith	so they were going to cancel my order, but failed at all to notify me of this fact	22:03
timeless_mbp	Shapeshifter: shrug	22:03
microlith	is nokia normally this sloppy with their orders?	22:03
timeless_mbp	that's the first thing i'd disable	22:03
timeless_mbp	microlith: sloppy?	22:03
timeless_mbp	nah	22:03
timeless_mbp	messy? absolutely	22:03
* lcuk curses https://bugs.launchpad.net/debian/+source/apt/+bug/354972 for some unknown reason		22:04
lcuk	2 ways to solve it, dig in and muck with apt code, or buy faster broadband	22:05
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* CoreFusion- finally got his second monitor to work		22:05
timeless_mbp	lcuk: there's a patch	22:05
timeless_mbp	CoreFusion-: on your n900?	22:06
qwerty12_N810	lcuk: 3) Stop downloading porn at the same time	22:06
* lcuk nods @ timeless		22:06
lcuk	qwerty12_N810, ummm errr yeahhh well dont leave your server running in the daytime for me to get ti	22:06
CoreFusion-	timeless_mbp: no :P, on my desktop, still havent got my n900	22:06
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* javispedro has neither n900 nor 3d drivers and will be angry.		22:06
javispedro	fortunately, being busy mitigates it.	22:06
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* javispedro ponders learning iphone development...		22:09
CoreFusion-	why?	22:09
RST38h	3d?	22:09
javispedro	I need some OpenGL ES hw to do some schoolshow	22:09
javispedro	and I could easily "loan" one of those eljobso phones...	22:09
dmj726	why itoy development? Why not n900?	22:10
timeless_mbp	javispedro: are you practicing Fingrish?	22:10
timeless_mbp	because you want "borrow"	22:11
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javispedro	was that the most worrisome grammar error I've made in the latest hours? :) That would mean I'm improving!	22:11
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CoreFusion-	did you guys read about the google spdy-protocol?	22:12
timeless_mbp	i heard about it	22:12
CoreFusion-	to replace http	22:12
CoreFusion-	interesting stuff	22:12
timeless_mbp	javispedro: i've only been around for 45mins	22:13
timeless_mbp	CoreFusion-: iirc it isn't a replacement	22:13
greenfly	yeah, reminds me of other companies with significant market shares that have wanted to replace standard protocols with an in-house one	22:13
timeless_mbp	it's an accelerator for caching	22:13
timeless_mbp	greenfly: this isn't quite an in house protocol	22:13
timeless_mbp	it's a derivative of someone else's proposal	22:13
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timeless_mbp	and google has almost enough market share to try	22:14
timeless_mbp	note that Real made rtsp which kinda worked	22:14
timeless_mbp	apple pushed things like Bonjour	22:14
greenfly	oh I have no doubt if anyone can 'encourage' all existing browsers and web servers to adopt a new protocol it will be google	22:15
timeless_mbp	actually...	22:15
greenfly	of course we know that MS won't do it, so then we'll have some nice fragmentation	22:15
timeless_mbp	it's sufficient for google to get browser vendors to implement it	22:15
timeless_mbp	since that can save google bandwidth	22:15
timeless_mbp	anytime google saves bandwidth, they save money	22:15
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greenfly	sufficient for them	22:16
timeless_mbp	well... if you're a company	22:16
timeless_mbp	and you spend 5 man years on a project	22:16
timeless_mbp	or 20% of 5 man years on a project	22:16
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timeless_mbp	so 1 man year	22:16
timeless_mbp	and you save millions of dollars	22:16
timeless_mbp	how does that equation sound to you?	22:16
timeless_mbp	afaiu, most google projects start as teams of 5 or fewer	22:16
timeless_mbp	and typically in 20% time	22:17
lcuk	they get over the hump of most projects	22:17
javispedro	that you only need 1 person to break HTTP, and 20 years to fix it.	22:17
lcuk	if its gonna fail and not be worthwhile it will be at that stage usually	22:17
greenfly	I guess I just haven't gathered enough info on it, such as, who controls the protocol code base?	22:17
timeless_mbp	iirc it's open on google code	22:17
greenfly	who decides what updates make it in, etc.	22:17
timeless_mbp	so far i haven't heard of problems w/ their accept system	22:18
timeless_mbp	mozilla shares breakpad with them	22:18
greenfly	well mozilla has a vested interest	22:18
greenfly	their foundation is heavily funded by google	22:18
timeless_mbp	in breakpad?	22:18
timeless_mbp	you mean getting crash reports?	22:18
timeless_mbp	um	22:18
greenfly	in return for the default search engine rights	22:18
greenfly	etc	22:18
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timeless_mbp	that has absolutely nothing to do with our use of breakpad	22:18
timeless_mbp	google doesn't care one way or the other	22:18
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timeless_mbp	and some people presumably have contributed changes to android	22:19
greenfly	I'm saying that pointing to mozilla as someone who hasn't had issues cooperating with Google may not be the best example	22:19
timeless_mbp	(as a Nokian, I can only presume)	22:19
CoreFusion-	O.o someone using IPv6 already?	22:19
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greenfly	since the two organizations already cooperate on many levels	22:19
timeless_mbp	greenfly: ok, so if nokia manages to cooperate w/ google somewhere, that'd be more impressive?	22:19
greenfly	yeah, it would be a better example than Mozilla, as Nokia (at least AFAIK) isn't getting major funding from Google	22:20
timeless_mbp	we get money for default search in the n900 :)	22:20
greenfly	what would be more impressive to me is how they would treat competitors	22:20
timeless_mbp	um	22:20
timeless_mbp	google has reached out to microsoft and yahoo at times	22:21
timeless_mbp	although to yahoo it was more to prop them up to avoid ms buying them :)	22:21
greenfly	everyone reaches out to everyone to adopt standards they have come up with :)	22:21
timeless_mbp	(didn't work, but hey)	22:21
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timeless_mbp	well... the n800/n810/n900 have google talk (including the branded logo)	22:22
timeless_mbp	so we had to have some agreement :)	22:22
timeless_mbp	http://betalabs.nokia.com/blog/2009/09/10/nokia-messaging-im-beta-updated-google-talk-e71-e63	22:22
timeless_mbp	http://www.nokia.com/press/press-releases/showpressrelease?newsid=1190585	22:23
timeless_mbp	> Nokia and Google to 0ffer [sic] Google Search to Nokia customers worldwide	22:23
timeless_mbp	> February 12, 2008	22:23
* timeless_mbp wonders if Nokia used OCR to write that press release		22:23
timeless_mbp	it's the ****n title!	22:23
greenfly	heh	22:23
CoreFusion-	http://news.slashdot.org/story/09/11/16/1631232/Mark-Cubans-Plan-To-Kill-Google	22:24
greenfly	in any case I'm not saying that Google won't partner with companies and work with them well	22:24
greenfly	I'm just wondering how they will cooperate with patches from competitors	22:24
RST38h	Let him	22:24
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timeless_mbp	http://www.google.com/intl/en/press/pressrel/20080212_mobile_nokia.html	22:27
timeless_mbp	> Nokia and Google to Offer Google Search to Nokia Customers Worldwide	22:27
timeless_mbp	the google press center doesn't use a Zero	22:27
timeless_mbp	i'm so disappointed in them	22:28
timeless_mbp	how dare they show us up by not including a typo in their headline!	22:28
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timeless_mbp	avs: ping	22:29
qwerty12_N810	...and the wars start	22:29
avs	timeless_mbp, pong	22:30
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* Jaffa was particularly boggled by the "Google" widget included in the sales release. It seems to have a slightly rotating 'g' and basically be a bookmark.		22:33
Jaffa	Ooooh.	22:33
* CoreFusion- is justing surfing around and learned that the speed of sound in titanium is over 4 kilometers per second		22:34
kalikiana	lol	22:34
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kalikiana	did the image come with a few hallucinogenes? :)	22:35
timeless_mbp	Jaffa: yeah, that was odd	22:35
qwerty12_N810	It's Nokia's awesome replacement for the Search widget in Maemo 4	22:36
CoreFusion-	so if we would build a ring around earths equator made of titanium then it would take 161.3 minutes for a sound go around the earth in that ring	22:38
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wazd	CoreFusion-: breathe, dude!	22:38
RST38h	breathe it out quick	22:39
SpeedEvil	Graphite fibre would be even faster	22:39
* CoreFusion- is taking a breath		22:39
SpeedEvil	(along the fibre axes.	22:39
CoreFusion-	do the same for mars and it would tkae 85,9 minutes	22:39
RST38h	don't take a breath of whatever you are smoking, you have had enough	22:39
CoreFusion-	take*	22:39
CoreFusion-	whoa.. or a whopping 1808 minutes for jupiter O.o	22:40
CoreFusion-	(30.14 hours)	22:40
RST38h	At which depth?	22:40
wazd	Mars is smaller than the Earth?)	22:40
aep	so where is the shell? is that some sort of hidden entry?	22:41
CoreFusion-	wazd: yes.. didn't you know that?	22:41
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CoreFusion-	:P	22:41
wazd	CoreFusion-: never been there :D	22:41
ShadowJK	How far to jupiter at lightspeed anyway	22:42
qwerty12_N810	wazd: Dude, you don't know what you're missing out on	22:42
wazd	Damn, that's fail... I really thhought that mars is slightly bigger	22:42
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wazd	Damn...	22:42
RST38h	heh	22:42
CoreFusion-	ShadowJK: 50.45 minutes	22:43
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wazd	Seriously, oh my... Never thought I can fail in this :D	22:45
CoreFusion-	ShadowJK: soryr my mistake, between earth and jupiter, 41.69 minutes	22:46
RST38h	wazd: BTW http://www.mentallandscape.com/V_Venus.htm	22:46
CoreFusion-	50.45 is between mars and jupiter	22:46
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Shapeshifter	I think there's better use for titanium	22:47
CoreFusion-	could be :P	22:47
Shapeshifter	Like, making sporks	22:47
RST38h	wazd: With raw telemetry data included ;)	22:47
CoreFusion-	indeed, what are they usually made of ?	22:47
CoreFusion-	aluminium?	22:47
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wazd	RST38h: I have to sell my kidney to view it thru EDGE :D	22:48
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CoreFusion-	cos titanium is 1.7 times as dense as aluminium	22:49
CoreFusion-	why didn't they make the casing for n900 out of titanium? :D that would have been so cool :P	22:50
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lbt	actually it would have been warmer	22:51
CoreFusion-	true	22:51
CoreFusion-	a lot	22:51
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jaska	Pu-238, itd work as a handwarmer in cold winters and as a power source	22:52
Shapeshifter	and as a source for cancer	22:53
CoreFusion-	thermal conductivity of titanium is less than one tenth of aluminium	22:53
Shapeshifter	how practical	22:53
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Shapeshifter	It's soo cool that voyager 1 has power for at least until 2025	22:54
CoreFusion-	isn't it powerder by some kind of nuclear battery? do i remember correctly?	22:55
CoreFusion-	powered*	22:55
Shapeshifter	yeah	22:55
jaska	solar wont work that far away :)	22:55
Shapeshifter	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_thermoelectric_generator one of these	22:55
CoreFusion-	Hah, i'm gonna call nokia and say "I'd like two Radioisotope thermoelectric generator with my N900 please"	22:56
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Shapeshifter	yeah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RTG_radiation_measurement.jpg with some improvement, that will fit in a backback	22:57
Shapeshifter	the generator, not the woman.	22:57
Shapeshifter	xD	22:58
aep	umm how do you press enter in the emulator?	22:58
aep	my actual physical enter key doesnt work at least	22:58
Stskeeps	ctrl-m	22:58
Stskeeps	?	22:58
javispedro	..	22:59
javispedro	"emulator"	22:59
aep	yeah.	22:59
aep	thanks	22:59
javispedro	or the Keypad intro.	22:59
javispedro	s/intro/enter	22:59
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aep	i dont have that one	22:59
Tester	has anyone gotten adblock plus to work correctly ?	22:59
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javispedro	aep: you don't have http://www.crestock.com/images/560000-569999/565814-xs.jpg ?	23:00
GeneralAntilles	Ah, geneven.	23:00
GeneralAntilles	Can't even keep from sniping, can you?	23:00
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GeneralAntilles	s/even/ever/	23:01
infobot	GeneralAntilles meant: Can't ever keep from sniping, can you?	23:01
aep	javispedro: nope	23:01
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aep	hm, apt doesnt work at all inside the sdk, does it?	23:03
aep	is it usuable on the final device?	23:03
Stskeeps	remember 'fakeroot'? :P	23:03
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qwerty12_N810	Ha, Reggie brought the smackdown to that religious thread	23:04
aep	Stskeeps: hm yes. but that doesnt do any difference anyway	23:04
aep	if fakeroot is what i think it is, then it lacks half the nessesary utils to run package scripts	23:05
RST38h	wazd: ouch.	23:05
RST38h	wazd: Actually, should be ok over edge, just slow like hell	23:05
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RST38h	qwerty: So soon?	23:06
RST38h	qwerty: I have just asked if there is any evidence of plants performing religious rites for the human gods and whether plants practice smoking marijuana to get into the higher consciousness state	23:07
CoreFusion-	woah, big news - http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1562246/first-programmable-quantum-revealed	23:07
aep	btw, is it possible to run without hildon-desktop? i fear the 100% cpu usage might drain the battery rather quick	23:07
javispedro	oh, new sdk	23:07
javispedro	aep: are you trying to extract any kind of conclusion about the device from looking at the SDK?	23:08
aep	yup	23:08
aep	are you saying i shouldnt? :D	23:09
javispedro	yes.	23:10
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javispedro	on your own, though.	23:10
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aep	well i'm trying to find out how hackable it is	23:10
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aep	i'm not testing how good it is as a consumer device. i dont care anyway	23:11
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Shapeshifter	aep: well, for _you_ it has Qt.	23:12
aep	yey	23:12
* GeneralAntilles head -> desk.		23:12
GeneralAntilles	Hey, ho, we've got this new firmware for you!	23:12
GeneralAntilles	HA! It doesn't work on your device! SUCKER!	23:13
aep	huh	23:13
GeneralAntilles	qwerty12_N810!	23:14
jani	aep: define hackable?	23:14
* javispedro notes the clutter color swap bug hasn't been fixed in sdk yet		23:14
qwerty12_N810	GeneralAntilles!	23:14
javispedro	It's a trap!	23:15
Corsac	it doesn't work on mine either! though maybe it wasn't intented for a sony ericsson?	23:15
aep	jani: run it with my favorite non debian distro without gui	23:15
Corsac	:>	23:15
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qwerty12_N810	Corsac: Just destroy the GDFS, it'll work then...	23:16
Milhouse	Anyone know why bugs are rarely if ever accepted/assigned in maemo bugzilla? eg. bug 6191	23:16
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6191 Wrong character shown for umlaut in media file description	23:16
Milhouse	ta povbot	23:17
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Corsac	qwerty12_N810: what's the gfds? :)	23:17
Milhouse	Seems an unusual way to administer bugzilla.	23:17
* javispedro watches an entry in the clutter changelog that may be related to anidel's rotation issue		23:18
jani	aep: with proper kernel i'd bet it would run pretty much anything if "anything" has arm port..	23:18
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qwerty12_N810	Corsac: Area where theme settings and the like are stored. Been a while since I've messed on my Sony Ericsson, however...	23:18
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aep	it does- but i'm worried about where the drivers are. especcialy if i may be forced to run hal	23:18
GeneralAntilles	Milhouse, because Nokia still sucks.	23:19
thomastp	anyone here ordered an n900 online and already received it ? trying to figure out if it has actually shipped yet	23:19
Milhouse	GA: Yeah, that's what I guessed... not sure if it's raising as an issue as a new bug or even in 630, is Mr Klapper about tonight? :)	23:19
GeneralAntilles	Milhouse, basically our only way in and out of the internal bug tracker is through Andre.	23:20
GeneralAntilles	So it's resulted in decreased internal participation in some areas.	23:20
* GeneralAntilles finds this part of the bugmaster role a poor bandaid.		23:20
Milhouse	GA: Bug 630 is as relevant today as it was when I raised it :(	23:20
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=630 Increased Bugzilla transparency - get the developers involved!	23:20
GeneralAntilles	Damnit, why does Daniel hate me. :(	23:20
GeneralAntilles	Milhouse, sadly.	23:20
Milhouse	GA: Andre does a great job but is let down by his colleagues	23:21
GeneralAntilles	Milhouse, I want to put together a Bugzilla Reportcard still.	23:21
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GeneralAntilles	To use to bash Nokians in the face.	23:21
* GeneralAntilles sighs.		23:21
Milhouse	Is one necessary? It should be pretty obvious to everyone that it's a developer free zone.	23:22
GeneralAntilles	The whole situation is really terrible.	23:22
GeneralAntilles	The internal processes aren't compatible with the external ones	23:22
GeneralAntilles	so not only do you rarely get answers, but when you do, half the time those answers are dismissive and insulting.	23:22
GeneralAntilles	Milhouse, probably.	23:22
Milhouse	I just chuckled at the last comment in bug 6088 - as if we'd have a freaking clue what int-145074 is about.	23:22
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6088 Very low touchscreen sensivitivity in the area near the left edge of the screen	23:22
GeneralAntilles	Milhouse, it's easier to complain when you can say "Hey, look, this team is kicking your asses at not sucking."	23:23
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Milhouse	Nokia just don't get it, and I suspect they never will.	23:23
GeneralAntilles	Those "It's to spec, screw off" responses are the worst.	23:24
Milhouse	Tell me about it. :(	23:24
GeneralAntilles	Two big problems	23:24
GeneralAntilles	Big ships turn slowly	23:24
GeneralAntilles	and S60 people	23:24
Milhouse	Trouble is, I just don't see it changing.	23:24
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Milhouse	It's been 3+ years of "open development" and the bugzilla is still a black hole.	23:24
GeneralAntilles	There's not really a viable safe transitional period with the bugzilla stuff.	23:25
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GeneralAntilles	When you have two trackers there's no way one of them isn't going to get neglected.	23:25
Milhouse	So kill one of them	23:25
Milhouse	There, problem solved.	23:25
GeneralAntilles	Easier said than done	23:25
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microlith	huh, that bit about NokiaUSA cancelling preorders for phone + headset was true	23:25
GeneralAntilles	Nokia is, of course, inclined to kill the public one	23:26
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GeneralAntilles	which we definitely don't want.	23:26
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Milhouse	GA: Yeah, so nothing gets done.	23:26
* GeneralAntilles is needs to shower and will be back in a bit.		23:26
Milhouse	GA: If they do that, I think they will have lost the plot completely	23:26
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aep	i think the big boys at nokia are well aware that the foss community is their only chance to survive. i wouldnt worry too much and just continue to poke people around	23:30
aep	its just the way "community" works for them apparantly..	23:30
Milhouse	that's what is so frustrating about the current "broken" process	23:31
* Stskeeps votes bugtracker for all publically developed stuff gets moved to b.m.o		23:31
javispedro	wasn't that the plan?	23:31
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Milhouse	not sure - too much discussion, too little action.	23:32
suihkulokki	too many people wanting ponies in bugzilla so the relevant bugs slip under	23:33
Milhouse	apart from one or two brave Nokia developers there's hardly any "presence" in b.m.o from anyone official (apart from Andre)	23:33
Milhouse	nobody seems to take responsibility for bugs - if you're lucky they might get fixed in some future release, not that you'll ever know beforehand	23:34
Milhouse	"Is this now fixed in release x.yyy.zzzz?" is a comment entry in b.m.o - it's ridiculous, doesn't anyone know for sure?????	23:35
Milhouse	s/common/comment/	23:35
javispedro	yeah.	23:35
jeremiah_	That is part of the problem with a public / private code base	23:35
Milhouse	the tracking of defects is haphazzard - a changelog has been promised for years.	23:36
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Robot101	there is a very strict tracking of defects and requirements with releases, and integration phases, etc	23:37
Robot101	its just... not with those defects :(	23:37
Milhouse	Robot: Right, which gives the community the impression they're not really of any interest. So why bother in the long term?	23:37
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Milhouse	Are we just an annoyance? Sometimes I get that impression	23:38
Milhouse	A necessary evil, perhaps.	23:38
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GeneralAntilles	The whole thing is pretty infuriating	23:39
GeneralAntilles	and the worst part is people running out of steam and dropping off.	23:39
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* GeneralAntilles still doesn't have a freaking FIASCO image.		23:40
Stskeeps	it's almost midnight in finland..	23:40
Stskeeps	:P	23:40
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Milhouse	Do Nokia really want our involvement in detecting, submitting and tracking bugs? I think they should be honest, and if they do they should commit to improving the process as per bug 630 (for starters). If not, just close down b.m.o and be done with it, stop the pretence.	23:41
povbot	Bug https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=630 Increased Bugzilla transparency - get the developers involved!	23:41
Milhouse	Hmm... maybe this should go on brainstorm - that would be a laugh. :)	23:42
Tester	Milhouse: some developers do reply	23:42
Milhouse	Yes, you can probably count them on the fingers of one hand though	23:42
Milhouse	And some of them have been public since the early days (particularly Eero)	23:42
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Tester	the problem is more like that there are a bunch of things that you dont want to say in public	23:44
Tester	(or can't)	23:44
Milhouse	b.m.o could handle that if it was configured correctly.	23:45
Tester	like having hidden bugs ?	23:45
Tester	didnt Ari said he wanted a single bug tracker ?	23:45
Milhouse	security related bugs, or bugs relating to new products - yes	23:45
Tester	and well, public bugs are only useful for public releases..	23:46
aep	i sort of trust nokia to get this fixed the next years. after all they bought trolltech to learn from them how to do open source...	23:46
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Tester	its more like the trolls learning from nokia	23:46
Tester	I meant, they didnt even have a public source repo before	23:46
aep	yeah	23:47
Milhouse	If Mozilla can operate in public while keeping security related bugs hidden (until they are fixed) then I see little reason why Nokia can't do the same - the functionality is already there in b.m.o it just needs to be utilised.	23:47
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Tester	Milhouse: mozilla is a non-profit	23:47
aep	and now they hang out on irc and have a public tracker. lots of good things happened :)	23:47
Tester	they dont do anything in secret	23:47
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Milhouse	Tester: Yes but responsible for 30 million+ installs	23:47
Milhouse	What has profit/non-profit got to do with it?	23:47
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aep	that the point is non technical	23:48
Tester	well, mozilla does everything in the open... nok can't do that	23:48
Milhouse	Tester: Security related bugs are not discussed publicly in the Mozilla defect tracker - they're hidden and only available to authorised developers.	23:48
aep	they could	23:48
Tester	security is just one thing	23:49
aep	i don't think they want to. thats a huge step	23:49
Tester	I think some of them would love it.. and many other nokians thing its jsut a pipe dream	23:49
Milhouse	Tester: Yes, but the point I'm making is that the functionality is present within the Bugzilla defect tracking system to keep bugs private or public, so one defect tracker could be used	23:49
aep	especcialy they don't want to discuss new devices in public :D	23:49
Milhouse	aep: spot on, which is why this pretence should be addressed once and for all.	23:49
Milhouse	aep: "spot on" in that they don't want to - not that they can't	23:50
aep	i think i missused the word "they"	23:50
jani	aep: i think huge step takes many small steps to cover the whole length	23:50
aep	"they" implies everyone inside nokia thinks alike, which isnt true	23:51
ljp	we are borg	23:51
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aep	there you are :D	23:51
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lbt	if I do a backup and then flash, is the backup wiped off the device?	23:51
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Milhouse	Well, as somsone said or aluded to earlier - they need foss more than foss needs Nokia.	23:52
lbt	or does the flash not touch the MyDocs area?	23:52
Milhouse	lbt: if the backup is stored on the internal storage, yes.	23:52
aep	they know that. i think the prolem is that they still have to learn HOW to do community, not IF	23:52
qwerty12_N810	lbt: MyDocs only gets touched if you flash the eMMC	23:52
Milhouse	lbt: it will replace the MyDocs area	23:52
qwerty12_N810	lbt: I did not flash the eMMC, so my backup is still there	23:52
qwerty12_N810	(after flashing)	23:52
* lbt feels this may be worth noting in the Wiki		23:52
aep	some devs have been part of foss for ages, some didnt even know it exists	23:53
lbt	ie do a backup and copy it off the device	23:53
GeneralAntilles	Management really needs to change	23:53
aep	Milhouse: time will fix this i think, just don't give up :)	23:53
Milhouse	aep: 4 years and counting.... slow learners I guess! Not sure they have long left, to be honest - they need to get it right sooner than later.	23:53
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GeneralAntilles	I'd be happy with having product owners who put 30 minutes a week into b.m.o	23:53
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aep	Milhouse: yeah or the other side of fixed takes effect	23:53
Tester	GeneralAntilles: management of nok is many order of magnitudes more clueful to foss than at any other mobile company	23:53
GeneralAntilles	lbt, eMMC flash is not for production devices.	23:53
GeneralAntilles	Tester, sadly that's still not good enough.	23:54
Milhouse	+1	23:54
lbt	GeneralAntilles: OK	23:54
GeneralAntilles	Tester, and that's my trademark argument. :P	23:54
Milhouse	It's all very nice knowing that they know what it's all about, the problem is it's not translating into action at the coalface.	23:55
* GeneralAntilles wonders where he put his key.		23:55
aep	and Tester had a good point. compare it to other mobile phone vendors.	23:55
Milhouse	You mean those who are signing up to Android and producing very nice devices without the aggravation of people like us?	23:55
aep	yup. prefer that?	23:56
SpeedEvil	Openmoko has interesting parallels. Open in some ways, closed in others.	23:56
suihkulokki	Milhouse: where do you report bugs agains motorola droid or htc hero?	23:56
Milhouse	No of course not, but they don't make any pretence to involve us in the development process. Nokia has done, and has failed. How long can it continue without our involvement? Does it need us?	23:56
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aep	suihkulokki: customer support of course! friendly offshore workers with no clue whatsoever	23:57
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GeneralAntilles	Milhouse, pfft.	23:57
jani	milhouse: failed how ? to not fix every bug reported on the bmo ?	23:57
GeneralAntilles	Milhouse, Android is a joke as far as openness goes.	23:57
Milhouse	Oh sure, not suggesting it wasn't	23:57
GeneralAntilles	Milhouse, I'd rather have my foot in the door and have a chance of getting it more open than no chance at all.	23:57
Stskeeps	open source discussion in the morning, bugtracker discussion in the evening..	23:58
GeneralAntilles	Although the response rate on b.m.o is poor, at least you can file bugs and at least you do get responses sometimes.	23:58
Stskeeps	i love this community.	23:58
Milhouse	jani: not every bug, but opening up the development process to involve the community more in the bug resolution process. It's a black hole, and despite many promises that hasn't changed in 2 years.	23:58
GeneralAntilles	Stskeeps, I went to Sam's and got 200lbs of troll food for $15.99.	23:58
aep	Milhouse: well i agree on the promises beeing slightly inapropriate	23:59
aep	Milhouse: those are suggestions from individuals which have never been on any agenda i guess	23:59
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jani	milhouse: granted.	23:59
aep	or the agenda says "take care of the comunity... someone"	23:59
Milhouse	GA: You must have the patience of a saint :)	23:59

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