IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2009-10-25

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ccookepupnik: There you go.00:10
crashanddieo/ ccooke00:10
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crashanddiepupnik, what's with the landscape?00:10
qwerty12_N810ccooke: I can't "thank" your post :\00:11
qwerty12_N810Ah, there we have it00:12
ccookeqwerty12_N810: oh? Odd.00:12
JackBeSlowThere is an app I want to create for the n900. However I don't have one yet and I would prefer not to wait to get started on the dev work. Would you suggest that I create it for the earlier devices (I have a 770) or just create the whole thing in scratchbox. The thing is I wanted to use some of the new tools available in maemo 5...00:13
ccookeJackBeSlow: for that, I'd suggest scratchbox as the best option00:13
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qwerty12_N810JackBeSlow: The Maemo 5 SDK is actually pretty decent00:13
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JackBeSlowFigured that, now I have to figure out how to setup the GUI part of scratchbox. and install the new SDK00:14
* w00t makes impatient noises00:14
qwerty12_N810You can, optionally, get things like the web browser installed00:14
JackBeSlowOk, thanks00:14
RST38hok, first attempt at optification...00:14
w00ti'm considering getting an 810 while i want for the 900 to be released to sate my gadget lust00:14
ccookeThe n810 is still a great device.00:15
w00toh, i've no doubt00:15
w00tthough i wouldn't have a lot of use for it00:15
qwerty12_N810Maemo 5 SDK: The poor man's N90000:16
ccooke... although I admit that I've not touched mine since day 2 of the Summit00:16
w00tapart from tinkering and playing00:16
w00tyeah, that's exactly what will happen once my order ships.. it's just a matter of when >:(00:16
JackBeSloww00t, but the n900 can do pretty much everything the n810 can, so it gets obsolete quick.00:16
ccookeI am quite tempted to try to cannibalise mine00:16
SpeedEvilccooke: for/00:17
Stskeepsexcept for usb otg00:17
JackBeSlowI mean you only have about a month or two to wait..00:17
w00tStskeeps: overrated anyway00:17
javispedrosigh. Mer = Poor man's Maemo for tmoers.00:17
w00tJackBeSlow: hahaha00:17
w00tyou haven't seen me over the past month00:17
ccookeSpeedEvil: casemod. Steampunk. Would probably take me a year or two, but it'd be fun.00:17
qwerty12_N810Hiya, javispedro00:17
javispedrohi qwerty12_N81000:17
zashccooke: :O00:17
w00tI've been spending every waking moment scouring the internet for any news, videos, photos, reviews, or talk about the n90000:17
qwerty12_N810javispedro: Turned into a skeleton, yet? :p00:17
SpeedEvilccooke: nice brass case?00:17
javispedroMostly. I am crying.00:18
w00tand hyperventilating each time it looks like it'll ship later00:18
ccookeSpeedEvil: a little wood, too00:18
javispedro(cutting onions lol)00:18
JackBeSlowDude I get it, I have a 770 but the last month I have been scouring the web for every new mention of the n900, new apps, different uses, problems, dimensions etc.00:18
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* ccooke wonders when Shapeways will be able to print brass...00:18
SpeedEviljavispedro: I have a tip for that.00:18
SpeedEvilccooke: they can do metal00:18
JackBeSlowJust to satiate my gadget lust until mine arrives.00:18
SpeedEvilccooke: look at some of the recent options00:18
ccookeSpeedEvil: I know :-)00:19
SpeedEviljavispedro: Close your eyes while cutting00:19
ccookeOOh, they do have bronze now!00:19
ccookethat would do the job00:19
javispedroand hope for the best!00:19
SpeedEviljavispedro: It means that the spray of onion juice as you cut doesn't go in your eyes.00:19
zashw00t: put links you find on a page with ads and make millions from me!00:19
Stskeepsjavispedro: poor man's maemo.. i like that00:19
SpeedEviljavispedro: no - prepare the onion, set the knife up to cut, then close your eyes, and slice the rest of the onion carefully with your eyes shut.00:20
qwerty12_N810w00t: You can have pictures of me using mine, if you wish ;P00:20
* Stskeeps comes from poor family00:20
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w00tqwerty12_N810: i'm going to cry myself to sleep.00:20
w00tlbt: old, old, old, *old* news00:21
w00tsaw that less than 30 minutes after it was posted00:21
w00t(and cried.)00:21
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lbtw00t: I know... I'm just being mean00:21
MrGoosewasnt that because nokia decided to fix some problems?00:21
w00tas far as I know, yes00:21
w00tStskeeps: pfft. no need to downmarket it00:22
SpeedEvilThey're porting an OS designed for the resolution and CPU speed to it.00:22
SpeedEvilWindows 95.00:22
MrGoosewell then rest assured that you will have a few less reasons to bitch once you get it :)00:22
w00twhile I'm fine with the delay (despite all my prior talk), trust me, I'd not be bitching00:22
w00tI'm fine with things going wrong, myself, because it gives me something to tinker with00:23
w00tI do understand I'm certainly in the minority though :p00:23
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w00thi Dantonic00:24
Dantonicw00t w00t!00:24
w00tthat's my name, don't wear it out :-)00:24
Dantonichow's it going?00:25
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Dantonicdo you have an N900?00:25
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w00twe were just discussing that00:25
MrGoosew00t: Oh Im not insulting you. Im just assuming that everyone bitches afterwards00:25
w00tMrGoose: hehe, yeah. I know how it'd be..00:26
DantonicMrGoose do you have one?00:26
MrGooseDantonic: no and I probably wont get one00:26
MrGooseas tempting as it is00:26
DantonicI C00:26
ccookeDantonic: Some of us have them, but all of those are pre-release00:26
qwerty12_N810MrGoose: Afterwards? Check some of the posts from people who got a loaned one at the Summit...00:26
Dantonicya I know00:26
w00tqwerty12_N810: hahah00:26
lbtis there a maemo vpn manager? One that will setup an ssh vpn00:26
w00tqwerty12_N810: i've not actually seen too much of that..00:27
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MrGoosebecause I have too many gadgets right now00:27
w00tperhaps i've been looking in the wrong place00:27
DantonicI need one asap! the wait is wearing me out!00:27
w00tDantonic: yeah, I'd say that sums a lot of people up :p00:28
w00tbut, patience00:28
w00tit can only get more awesome while we wait00:28
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qwerty12_N810Except for the Summit-goers, and some others...00:28
Dantonichehe yeah it'd be great if it came out in 2 weeks with portrait mode00:28
Dantonicalthough they said by christmas time right?00:28
w00t(I think.)00:28
DantonicI think qgil said that00:29
w00tI really, really doubt there will be any drastic change (like portrait mode) before launch00:29
Dantonicyeah I know00:29
qwerty12_N810Portrait mode in the browser00:29
w00tit would require too much additional testing time, let alone anything else00:29
Dantonicjust dreaming00:29
dmj7261easter egg!00:29
qwerty12_N810Bug the developer of your favourite app if you wish to see it elsewhere.00:30
w00tqwerty12_N810: but, but, i want portrait mode in my video player00:30
Dantonictomorrow they announce Project Black? anyone heard anything else about it?00:30
SpeedEvildmj7261: the case is really made form chocolate00:30
Dantonicdid they say the 25th?00:30
Dantonicor Monday idk00:31
Dantonicwonder what that'll be00:31
SpeedEvilthe 26th00:31
SpeedEvilMonday that is.00:31
qwerty12_N810w00t: Ah... I've read that is unsupported, with no plans on changing that...00:31
Dantonicare you guys in the US?00:32
Dantonicany of you?00:32
dmj7261I am00:32
w00tqwerty12_N810: yeah, I was joking00:32
qwerty12_N810Mediabox guy got his app to rotate; video did not :)00:32
qwerty12_N810Ah, sorry :)00:32
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Dantonicdmj7261, do you have tmobile currently?00:32
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dmj7261no, verizon at the moment00:32
Dantonicare you getting N900+tmobile soon?00:33
dmj7261which has shit phone selection00:33
toggles_1Dantonic: i did up until a few months back00:33
dmj7261I hope so.00:33
qwerty12_N810Dantonic: I'm using it on T-Mobile UK...00:33
dmj7261I'm not sure whether I'm going to get a data plan or not though00:34
Dantonicwell I'm on Tmobile US... I wonder when N900 will come out for sale with them00:34
Dantonichopeuflly we find out in 2 days00:34
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w00tqwerty12_N810: personally I don't think portrait mode has a lot of use, I think that (as usual) people like to complain :-)00:34
dmj7261One would be nice, but I have wifi in almost any building I'm likely to be in 80-90% of the time00:34
pupnik_  <<<< Carl Craig - My Machines (genius)00:34
DantonicI already have a data plan and tether to the N80000:35
qwerty12_N810w00t: I agree wholly with that. In the few apps that do support it, I've only used it a few times :)00:35
dmj7261It would mostly be useful on long car rides and at restaurants during university breaks.00:35
DantonicI use the 3g often, especially when I'm driving... lol that's bad00:36
DantonicDon't Drive and Browse!00:36
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qwerty12_N810Dantonic's Twitter: "yeh ima bout 2 crash kthxbye"00:37
DantonicI have the N800 mounted on my left right next to the steering wheel, so I Don't have to take my hand off of the wheel to touch it!00:37
Dantonicso in essence I'm always aware... somewhat00:37
Dantonicwith periferal vision if I'm looking at the device I can still see the road or cars breaking00:37
Dantonicno acidents yet00:37
* Dantonic crosses fingers00:37
Dantonicqwerty12_N810, you konw I've never used twitter00:38
qwerty12_N810I didn't know. What, you think I *ahem* stalk you?00:39
Dantonichey stupid question about Diablo.  How do you change the system's font size? or font type for that matter? is that possible?00:39
qwerty12_N810Dantonic: Edit the theme's gtkrc and matchbox.xml and change the sizes to your heart's content00:40
Dantonic* Received a CTCP VERSION from freenode-connect00:40
Dantonicwhat does that mean? are you trying to hack me qwerty12_N810 ?00:40
qwerty12_N810It means w00t is00:40
w00tthat's a freenode utility, nothing to be concerned about00:40
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Dantonicsure w00t I believe you00:41
w00t <-- :p00:41
Dantonicoh I was kidding thanks tho00:41
JackBeSlowWell if you can get hacked through your irc connection... you sorta deserve it.00:41
dmj7261irc as root shell?00:42
Dantonicyou know was just trying to figure out how to use openvpn... Never used it before not even sure about what it does exactly...00:42
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bmidgley2hey, my homebrew linux wifi access point works in every way except the n810 can't get https pages through it00:43
bmidgley2very strange00:43
* javispedro likees Windows 95 theme but would prefer Windows 3.11 theme. More finger friendly.00:43
bmidgley2anyone seen this kind of misbehaving?00:43
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SpeedEvilbmidgley: are you forwarding http?00:44
SpeedEvilbmidgley: or just all tcp/ip00:44
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Dantonic"<qwerty12_N810> Dantonic: Edit the theme's gtkrc and matchbox.xml and change the sizes to your heart's content"   where are these located?00:45
* qwerty12_N810 forces javispedro to run Microsoft Bob on his tablet00:45
dmj7261now with more clippy!00:45
qwerty12_N810Dantonic: /usr/share/themes/<theme>/gtk-2.0/ (IIRC)00:45
Dantonickk ty00:46
qwerty12_N810<theme> being, obviously, the theme you wish to modify00:46
bmidgley2SpeedEvil, no http proxy or anything, just plain NAT for all network access00:46
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Dantonichey what's the command in linux to search for a file or directory in the system?00:46
bmidgley2Dantonic locate00:46
Dantonicie if I wanted to search for those files?00:46
xnt14hmm, why doesn't this work? probably something stupid...any ideas?
zashdmj7261: yes, grep /dev/sd* ! it's awesome00:47
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pupnik_   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   this is it!  this !   haaahahaha hahahahahaha00:47
pupnik_tyurn it upppppppppppppp00:47
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zashDantonic: also, there is find, more powerful but more time consuming00:48
Dantonicok thanks00:48
xnt14zash, umm, that looks dangerous lol00:48
xnt14directly grepping the sd* block dev files?00:48
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xnt14Dantonic, how about locate?00:49
zashxnt14: unless you run it as root it shouldn't be dangerous00:49
xnt14zash, oh ok lol00:49
SpeedEvilOk - I've found the maemo-eats posts on flickr.00:49
zashxnt14: with some luck you can find deleted files that way00:49
xnt14will that work on ext4?00:50
SpeedEvilnow where is the optical calorie recognition and integration into a diet planner?00:50
Dantonicso trying to leafpad gtkrc, I get process 6857: D-Bus library appears to be incorrectly set up; failed to read machine uuid: Failed to open etc etc...00:50
xnt14musicbot: KOTOKO: Shooting Star00:51
qwerty12_N810Dantonic: Prefix "leafpad" with ""00:52
Dantonicqwerty12_N810, not sure what that means you mean just enter the command " leafpad gtkrc"00:53
qwerty12_N810Erm, yeah00:53
Dantonicok just making sure00:53
DantonicI suck at linux sorry00:53
Dantonicso what does that do?00:53
crashanddieinteresting, R&D position for mobile apps at Nokia Calif00:53
* qwerty12_N810 uses Windows...00:53
xnt14Linux & BSD > Windows XP, Vista, 700:54
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qwerty12_N810Dantonic: In essence, allows you to run leafpad as root :-)00:54
Dantonicwell if I had done sudo gainroot that is not the same?00:55
Synergy6Random item A > Random item B00:56
Synergy6I'm so 133700:56
xnt14Dantonic, It still needs access to hildon-desktop etc, I may be wrong, qwerty is the master of maemo internals xD00:56
Dantonicall right thanks00:56
xnt14np ;)00:56
qwerty12_N810Dantonic: Oh, I phrased that badly... You need to find a way of being root first (sudo gainroot) but will let you run leafpad as root (you saw what happens when you tried w/out it)00:57
DantonicI see00:57
Dantonicya I was already root when I tried the first time...00:57
Dantonicso although I was root I had to force leafpad to run as root00:58
Dantonicso I can use with any other program?00:58
Dantonichmm lots of Osso font options...00:59
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DantonicSystemFont, EmpSystemFont TItleFont ButtonFont SmallFont LargeFont :P01:00
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pupnik - Psykosonik - I am God01:05
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sin18does anyone know the correct/new url format for google street (maemo mapper) ?01:07
crashanddiepupnik, lol at HD video for a song01:10
SpeedEvilHD video can add lots to certain songs.01:10
pupnikhno song is cheesy01:14
pupnikbut imo01:14
pupnikand thiughtful01:14
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Flandryhow do i escape echo '$@' in a bash script so that the output still contains $@?01:42
Flandrydoesn't work01:43
crashanddieshow code01:43
Flandry        echo 'exec "/opt/games/uqm" "--contentdir=/opt/share/games/uqm" "\$@"' >> ./debian/uqm/usr/games/uqm01:44
crashanddieecho 'exec "/opt/games/uqm" "--contentdir=/opt/share/games/uqm" "\$@"'01:45
crashanddieecho 'exec "/opt/games/uqm" "--contentdir=/opt/share/games/uqm" "$@"' <-- works for me01:46
zashecho 'echo "\$@" ' | sh01:46
crashanddiezash, the important bit is that he already has '' around the ""01:46
Flandryi tried with and without the backslash01:47
Flandrywtf i'll just use a file lol01:47
crashanddieFlandry, hang on, which shell is this using?01:47
zashbut, how do you use $* without spaces messing things up?01:47
Corsacor just concatenate01:47
Flandrysorry, it's make01:47
Flandryit's in the rules file01:47
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Corsacecho "echo ""$""@"01:48
Corsacfor example01:48
Corsac(quick and dirty)01:48
Flandryseparate them eh01:48
Flandrygood idea01:48
Flandryoh man01:50
Flandrydoesn't that leave me with an extra echo?01:50
crashanddie"an extra echo"?01:50
crashanddiethis isn't a cave mate01:50
Flandryoh typo01:50
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Flandrythere *is* an extra echo that way01:54
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FirebirdIs there a Maemo5 qt guide somewhere? I can't get a dialog to open again after closing it :/01:55
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sp3000Flandry: $$@ in make02:01
sp3000google gnu-make-dollar for ref02:02
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SpeedEvilA way to make the n900 reliable at high CPU clock?
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FirebirdSpeedEvil, the was more of a overvoltage issue I thought02:09
* lcuk found out the n900 is capable of dual screen operation02:11
tekonivellcuk: bliss02:12
ccookelcuk: oh?02:12
lcuknormal RGB/x11 operation on the device screen, whilst YUV Overlay goes out over the tvout02:12
ccookelcuk: oh, lovely!02:12
lcukyeah!really nicely too02:12
ccookeI want to see something using that!02:12
lcuki did my presentation and whilst i was setting it up i alt-tabbed (ctrl-del) and liqbase carried on running02:13
Firebirdblarg, anyone know if a click outside of a dialog box just destroys it instead of hiding it?02:13
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lcukwell my presentation works properly from it now02:13
lcuki even managed to test more tv out stuff02:13
lcukand it was my device which was at fault at the summit02:13
SpeedEvilFirebird: yes - it wasn't really about that - but it was an amusing (to me) link02:14
lcukbut it works for tv out here and worked for tv out on other projectors02:14
SpeedEvillcuk: neat!02:14
lcukyeah tis02:14
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lcukbtw, who wrote supertux02:14
* SpeedEvil wonders how flexible the display hardware is.02:14
lcukcos it runs so nicely02:15
* lcuk played on the train home02:15
lcukit needs promoting if itsn ot already02:15
Flandryi always thought it sprang, fully formed, from Linus' head02:15
lcukprobably did02:15
SpeedEvil     Contact via IRC:, #supertux - lcuk02:15
* timeless_mbp looks for someone w/ an n900 and some time02:16
lcukthanks SpeedEvil i just went and thanked them02:16
lcukhow much time - timeless02:17
Flandrysp3000: that did the trick02:17
ccooketimeless_mbp: what do you need?02:17
timeless_mbpi need two screen shots02:17
* SpeedEvil ponders a tiny RF modulator and transmitter.02:17
SpeedEvil(for TV transmission)02:18
timeless_mbpone of the sharing accounts pane (with 0 accounts)02:18
timeless_mbpone of the voip accounts pane (with 0 accounts)02:18
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timeless_mbpoh, you can't use my translation!02:18
lcukSpeedEvil, increase speed of this hardware hack02:19
lcukwireless tv out would make presentations much easier02:19
lcukits a godsend to do presentations directly from device02:19
lcukand felt SO good saying "you cant really do it on the low res iphone02:19
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SpeedEvillcuk: unfortunately, it's not legal I think for me to make them.02:20
crashanddiewhy the fuck is there no text-editor on the NIT?02:20
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crashanddieI just want to create a bash script02:20
lcukpygtkeditor then02:20
lcuknot on by default02:21
timeless_mbpccooke: so, is that doable?02:21
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ccooketimeless_mbp: I can do that tomorrow, but not today (I'm actually waiting for a call that'll probably come on VOIP ATM)02:24
ccooketimeless_mbp: I think I can do the sharing accounts one right now, though02:24
timeless_mbpmy bet is getting sharing is much easier than getting voip :)02:24
timeless_mbpbut i'll take it02:25
timeless_mbpsomeone has to be willing to offer voip02:25
* timeless_mbp pokes virtualbox-w7-windbg02:25
ccookeActually, there isn't a "voip" account listing02:25
timeless_mbp(it's supposed to explain why someone else's gecko crashed)02:25
timeless_mbpum..., in settings02:25
timeless_mbpwhatever is to the right of sharing02:26
ccooketimeless_mbp: I mean: It's not specifically a voip one. Account configuration is for all IM and VOIP accounts02:26
timeless_mbpyeah.. sure02:26
timeless_mbpplease don't expect me to remember the official terms for things i've translated :)02:26
timeless_mbpwhich at this point is just about every string in the entire product :)02:26
ccookeSorry :-)02:26
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ccooke... does it have to be a screenshot, by the way? It would be a terrible waste of bandwidth, at least in the case of the sharing one.02:27
timeless_mbpi need two02:27
timeless_mbpwe're taking the death by a thousand paper cuts approach to managing ui designers02:28
timeless_mbpthey're proud of their works02:28
timeless_mbpi want to explain that they shouldn't be02:28
timeless_mbpthe screen shots are .png02:28
timeless_mbpi think it does some compression...02:28
crashanddieBUT PNG IS OPEN!02:28
crashanddieJPEG IS THE EVIL02:28
timeless_mbpyeah, we should use .3gp or something02:29
ccookeOkay, got screenshots of that. Gimme a sec.02:29
timeless_mbptarga :)02:29
SpeedEvilFree at last! Free at last, thank god, GIF is free at last.02:29
javispedrostill 256 color only.  fork it!02:30
javispedroGIF+ "cause, we admit, GIF was cool"02:30
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lcukplease write all images in planar amiga LBM IFF format02:31
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ccookeOkay, just for this, you're getting the screenshot converted to ascii art, with metadata for lossless reconversion. In an ar archive.02:32
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SpeedEvilumm.. Because of an order from the United States International Trade Commission, BGA-packaged product lines and part numbers indicated here currently are not available from Freescale for import or sale in the United States prior to September 2010 : Indicated by the Icon (  )02:32
SpeedEviljavispedro: I wish the lossy gif codec was open02:32
lcukccooke, :D sweet02:32
SpeedEviljavispedro: that was funky02:32
ccooketimeless_mbp: Here you go:
timeless_mbpcan someone please get me the pair?02:34
timeless_mbpccooke: for the record: en-us or en-gb?02:34
ccooketimeless_mbp: let me know if you haven't got the other tomorrow.02:34
ccooketimeless_mbp: Should be GB02:35
ccookeah, yes. "English (UK)"02:35
lcuktimeless, got you the pair02:36
timeless_mbphit me :)02:36
javispedroSpeedEvil: heh
javispedrolossy zlib :P02:36
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lcukoooh size of the buttons changes02:37
lcuki thought dialogs were standard02:37
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lcuktimeless, those ok for you02:45
SpeedEviljavispedro: I hadn't seen that before02:46
SpeedEviljavispedro: intersting02:46
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timeless_mbplcuk: thanks02:52
timeless_mbplcuk: isn't that pair of dialogs impressive?02:52
lcuki wouldnt have noticed until the pics are side by side02:53
lcuki suppose because of the differing text you had to consider translation differently too02:53
timeless_mbphow many bugs can you spot?02:53
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lcukdepends what you term by bugs - inconsistencies 302:56
timeless_mbplist please:02:56
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lcuksize of button changes - that was immediate02:56
timeless_mbpin fact, if you can name all 3, you're welcome to file the bug02:56
lcuklocation of the No accounts created02:57
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timeless_mbpdeath by a thousand *distributed* papercuts :)02:57
lcukformatting differences of the same message02:57
timeless_mbpok, you collected them all. here's your cookie:02:57
timeless_mbpactually, i think you missed one02:57
timeless_mbplemme check02:57
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lcukheight of the dialog02:57
lcukbut that is based on content02:57
lcukso that might actually change02:57
lcukthat is context specific02:58
timeless_mbpit's still absolutely stupid02:58
timeless_mbpthe context is a *list*02:58
timeless_mbpanyway, i'd recommend listing it w/ a note that you're aware there *might* be a valid excuse for such an oddity02:58
lcukso you get different amount of data on what should be self similar screens02:58
* Firebird stabs QT for maemo to death02:58
timeless_mbpanyway, please collect your bug :)02:58
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timeless_mbpfwiw, there's also a horizontal alignment issue02:59
timeless_mbpactually, on that i'm really not certain02:59
timeless_mbpbut i suspect there is :)02:59
lcukill try and write it up carefully in a few02:59
timeless_mbpfwiw, most of these are fixed in my translation :)03:00
lcuki need to shower first03:00
timeless_mbpthe dialogs made you dirty?03:00
* timeless_mbp is sorry03:00
* lcuk did just get back after 3 hours on a train with roudy drunken footballers03:00
lcukday at barcamp03:00
* lcuk wanted to stay the night03:00
lcuktomorrows sessions looked wicked03:00
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SpeedEvillcuk: annoyingly... The chips that would have been easy to use for this seem to have been discontinued in 2005 or so03:03
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lcukSpeedEvil, the drive towards digital leaves many technologies lacking03:03
lcuki remember tv senders being reasonably cheap in the late 90s03:03
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lcukthen they vanished and replaced with 100s of quids worth of super crap03:04
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SpeedEvillcuk: where does the 3.5mm jack come out?03:06
timeless_mbpSpeedEvil: on the n900, if there's a place that's right, and a place 180deg from right03:07
timeless_mbpyou can be sure, it'll be at the place 180deg from right03:07
timeless_mbpusb on top, audio jack on bottom03:08
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lcukusb on left hand side03:08
lcukvideo out on right hand side03:08
lcukif you charge and have headphones, the n900 is like an inline remote03:08
SpeedEvillcuk: VHF TV modulators still seem available...03:09
* SpeedEvil may look some more later.03:09
lcuklol - as long as its not like the old style Amiga RF modulator!03:09
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SpeedEvillcuk: well - the first chips I've found want 250mW of power - which implies a non-trivial battery03:12
lcuki would be happy with a presentation pack which sat under the whole device itself03:12
lcukif it gave 1hr or so of wireless tv from device it would work03:13
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SpeedEvilwould a video sender like device work?03:15
SpeedEvilwith a plug-in to the TV?03:16
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lcukSpeedEvil, probably03:16
lcuki really liked using n900 to present from03:16
lcukand was super impressed by the double res screen03:17
SpeedEvilI could make the reciever really small, and sell replacement ones to careless people.03:17
lcukshow movie in projector, and have remote control on screen :)03:17
lcukthe recv could be a k box the size of the tardis03:18
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Firebirdsuccess!! even though I didn't change anything....03:27
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crashanddiewhat's the command to launch quake?03:36
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SpeedEvilAh - I love practical encouragement with diet programs.03:47
SpeedEvilYou could burn off the 1,400 calories from this Tesco Value Cooking Bacon 500g in a variety of ways:03:47
SpeedEvil   Baling Hay for 110 minutes03:47
SpeedEvil   Ice Fishing - sitting for 439 minutes03:47
tbf(that's f-contacts)03:48
Stskeepstbf, cool03:48
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timeless_mbpplease upload your pictures to bugzilla03:08
timeless_mbpthen people can use 'view all'03:09
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lcuktimeless, ok03:12
* lcuk has never added attachment to it03:12
timeless_mbpgood job :)03:12
lcuklookin at it, you are right03:13
lcuki would make similar boobs in my code :)03:13
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Firebird more progress...04:00
lcukFirebird, way cool :)04:01
Firebirdthanks, only thing I hate about qt-hildon is that everything is almost pitch black.. unlike the slate/grey color in native hildon apps04:04
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BBNSFirebird: playable on N900? =p04:07
FirebirdBBNS, uhh.... soon!04:09
* BBNS cheers Firebird04:09
lcukhahaa bbigras04:10
BBNSlcuk: =P btw you tested the camera api i told you last week yet?04:10
lcuknot had much time, but its in my stack. i want the viewfinder mode - the current whole frame is not realtime enough for acceptable use04:11
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lcukie next time i do camera stuff04:11
lcuki have been making packages and things and going to barcamp this last week04:11
BBNSlcuk: it's within the same source anyway, you could switch mode.04:11
lcuk3 modes work :)04:11
lcukor should do based on your insight :)04:12
BBNSby default is viewfinder mode04:12
BBNSand then still-image mode / video mode04:12
BBNSyou could inspect v4l2camsrc. it's a property.04:12
lcukthe amount of drag and bend on the image is much more than the live viewfinder04:12
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BBNSdepends on your pipeline. if you dump the v4l2camsrc directly to xvimagesink,04:13
BBNSthat's the same thing as live viewfinder.04:13
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BBNSbut, if you have longer pipeline then i am not sure.04:13
BBNSsince buffers will be copied.04:14
lcuki have the minimal pipeline as you describe i believe04:14
lcukits the same pipeline as on the 81004:14
BBNSi don't have ffmpegcolor though04:14
lcukbut the frames coming back have noticable more slowscan warping04:14
BBNSi convert yuy2 to rgb via shader, and render to texture directly.04:14
lcukturn off the camera from app04:14
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lcukopen real camera app04:15
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lcukand they are not scanwarped04:15
lcukwhich is at the camera end04:15
BBNSi noticed that too.04:15
lcukrather than in the pipeline04:15
lcukhence i think somehow its in the fullscan mode04:15
BBNSalso i noticed there was some noise.04:15
lcukalways noise :)04:15
BBNShmm ... let me know if you have any idea how to turn it off.04:16
lcukcameras are noiser04:16
lcukthe 810 was too04:16
lcukyeah BBNS im gonna stick my head back in it04:16
lcuki really need it for something04:16
BBNSi believe real cam app uses the same source.04:16
BBNSbut i don't know how it has been tuned.04:16
BBNS=) please let me know if you have any discovery.04:16
BBNSi am curious too.04:17
* b-man17 sighs04:19
lcukive lost the pic04:21
lcuka pic04:21
derfI don't think the N810's camera could properly be called "noisy".04:24
derfIt was noisy in the same way that an analog TV station that's off the air is "noisy".04:25
lcuki thought all a/d image sensors had similar noise04:26
lcukreducing that noise is part of the post processing04:27
solarionspam: "Autumn Special -3 coffees for $3" I don't think this is a good deal04:27
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derflcuk: All sensors have noise. Most of them try to compensate by receiving more than one photon.04:28
lcukyeah, slowing the refresh rate satursates each pixel more and has better stability04:28
lcukupto a point04:29
derfWell, too long and you get motion blur, etc.04:29
lcukslow it too much and you blue yeah04:29
derfBut some people also like to use a bigger sensor.04:29
derfThose are your basic two options: more surface area or more time.04:30
* lcuk nods04:30
derfYou're never going to have a "good" camera in a mobile phone, just because of size issues.04:30
lcukyeah so you work with what you have04:30
derfBut the N810's camera went way beyond "bad".04:30
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lcukthe accelerometer is very noisey too04:31
derf$100,000 accelerometers are noisy.04:31
derfMeasuring a 2nd derivative is always going to be noisy.04:31
lcukyeah, but in just the same way you can try to tame the accelerometer, you can attempt similar with each pixel04:31
derfYes, there are millions of denoising algorithms.04:32
lcukbut then on a mobile device we are constrained by cpu power reqs04:32
derfIf I ever get an N900, I'd like to try some of Monty's complex wavelet denoising.04:32
lcukit would be nice to offer the plugin api to allow this kind of experimentation04:33
derfThere've been some recent advances in TV denoising, too.04:33
lcukat source using the raw data before it gets to jpeg04:33
lcukyeah, even tho on tv they are having different issues04:33
derf(where TV = total variation)04:33
lcukits less noise now and more compression artifacts04:34
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derfTV is a particular type of norm (e.g., the sum of the gradient magnitudes).04:35
derfRequires an iterative numerical algorithm to minimize, but there was a new dual algorithm developed in 2004 that's actually pretty fast.04:35
derfIt also traditionally has problems with banding, but there's a solution to that problem, now, too.04:36
* lcuk nods04:36
lcukwork ongoin in many areas :)04:36
lcuki have to sleep tho04:37
lcukhad a long day carrying heavy laptop and projector round barcamp!04:37
derfI've got code that implements most of this.04:37
derfI'm curious how hard it would be to get running in a reasonable amount of time on the device.04:37
lcuki gave presentation direct from n900 :)04:37
lcukas i shouldv at the summit04:37
lcukme too derf04:37
derfBut... so many things to do.04:38
lcukin the case of the camera, its a matter of checking the cpu cost of the functions04:38
derfWell, and also looking into DSP/NEON optimizations.04:38
lcukits like appollo 13 :D04:38
lcuksame thing04:38
lcuksee whats acceptable time wise04:38
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lcukwork out what can be done in that time04:38
derfAll of this stuff is floating point.04:38
derfThe ARM11's fpu was atrociously slow.04:39
derfDon't know if Cortex A8's will be better.04:39
lcukmessy and consuming04:39
lcukperhaps there would be a way to use pixelshaders :)04:39
derfRight, if the PowerVR chip is powerful enough, this stuff is very GPU-friendly.04:39
* lcuk nods04:39
lcukderf, then if the pvr still isnt powerful enough on its own whilst also doing the normal graphics stuff, maybe the compositing can be removed.  the camera ui does livei n the yuv plane afaik04:41
lcukand isnt composited04:42
lcukbut the subsystem may still be busy04:42
lcuksleep time, gnite derf BBNS \o04:43
solarionderf: a fellow numerical monkey!04:44
solarionderf: what univ you at?04:44
solarionlcuk: n804:44
lcuknite solarion04:44
derfsolarion: I graduated.04:45
solarionderf: postdocing?04:45
derfThey pay better :).04:45
* solarion is postdocing. :(04:45
solarionwhere at?04:45
derfA small defense contractor.04:45
BBNSnight, lcuk!04:45
solarionah, cool04:45
solarionbet you guys could figure out some interesting uses for n900s. :)04:46
solarionderf: what do you work in?04:47
solarionengineering of some sort?04:47
derfOf some sort, yes.04:47
derfI do a lot of things.04:47
solarionsounds like fun. :)04:47
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solarionis good to hear from other numerical calculators. :)04:48
derfComputer vision, machine learning/pattern recognition, OCR, general image/video processing, compression, hyperspectral, GPU programming, numerical algorithms, parallel/distributed computing...04:49
pupnikderf what is probability of cell phones being able to translate signs and menus soon04:54
pupnikcomputationally i think it s idoable04:54
pupnikanother thing is some general voice assist - at least for common commands04:55
solarionderf: sounds like *lots* of fun. :)04:55
pupnikdoesn't need to be fluid recognition04:55
pupnikyeah fun04:56
pupnikdude is making money creating useless products to kill people with money forced out of taxpayer pockets at gunpoint04:56
solarionnot that you're bitter or anything04:57
pupnikno, just pointing it out04:57
pupnikmost people don't realize this04:57
pupnikmilitary spending is a waste of money04:57
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derfpupnik: Our systems are sensors, they don't kill anyone.04:58
derfThey help make sure our military kills the _right_ people.04:58
derfAnd Lord knows they need all the help they can get.04:58
solarionpupnik: clearly. I mean, bad guys would stop existing if we just sniffed enough pixie dust and thought of a wonderful thought04:59
solarionsee also smart bombs vs, say, WWII05:00
* solarion also gets funded by DoD yet is unrelated to developing weapons05:00
* solarion does fundamental science, and DoD is one of the few places funding that05:01
solarionDoE started getting into it a little, but far and away DoD is the biggest TMK05:01
solarionI think second is NSF, although the allocations are different05:01
solarionthey may be similar, come to think of it05:01
solarionregardless, most people never realize *that* either05:02
derfsolarion: NIH.05:02
solarionderf: I don't do bio05:02
* solarion is in solid state physics05:02
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derfSure, I'm just saying, they fund a lot of fundamental science.05:02
solarionis very true05:03
derfIncluding me, at one point.05:03
solarionthey might fund me if I can figure out how to tie in bio, or else develop a special sort of sensor05:03
solarionhas to be pretty specialized05:03
solarionsadly, industry just ain't funding fundamental research anymore05:04
derfYeah, I don't build the sensors, I just do the processing.05:04
solariongone are the days of bell labs and things05:04
derfFortunately, math is math.05:04
pupniki'm fairly familiar with science from the public health side and national grants05:04
derfThe same math I used for medical image analysis applies to the sensors the DoD is using.05:04
solarionI'd not even desing the sensor; I'd develop the principles underlying the sensor, and predict how to tune the device perhaps05:04
pupnikfine, you just write the counting machines for the jews heading to the gas chambers05:05
derfpupnik: Yes, that's me.05:05
solarionpupnik: you've just Godwinned yourself. :)05:05
pupnikworking for government is pure evil05:05
derfI'd rather be taking their money than giving it to them.05:05
pupnikas long as we're OT05:05
pupnikthere's a good point :)05:05
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pupnik(btw been there, done that too)05:06
derfAnyway, I'll go tell my dad all those years he spent working for the Coast Guard were evil.05:06
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derfHe should have just let all the Hatian boat people drown.05:06
pupnikyeah my point was mainly that military tech doesn't produce consumer products05:06
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derfAnd let all the drug smugglers bring their drugs here.05:06
pupnikoh yes government is evil for enforcing blockades05:07
pupnikbut you'll have to think about that one too05:07
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derfSay what you want about the "war on drugs", but I don't see how it's bad to seize massive quantities of cocaine at sea.05:08
pupnikhow about cars05:08
doc|homederf: that's what was said about prohibition05:08
derfI don't think the Coast Guard seizes many cars.05:08
pupnikor pistacios05:08
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pupnikyou could kill someone with pistacios05:09
pupnikif you cared enough05:09
dmj7261pistachio allergies?05:10
derfUh huh. I guess they must be just like cocaine, then.05:10
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pupnikright.  quantity x of pistacios makes person happy.  quantity n*x makes them dead.  or handicapped.05:22
pupnikoh and by the way ban n900s05:23
pupnikbecause clearly we do not need them for your spartan society05:23
pupnikbtw do we have any volunteers for pistacio-boarding?05:24
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derfpupnik: I don't think you're going to bring anyone to your side of the argument by being ridiculous.05:25
pupnikmaybe i can drive them from yours by revealing how ridiculous it is05:26
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pupnikbut i do skip ahead in the argument chain05:27
pupnikthat is a fault05:27
derfIf you can't tell the difference between pistacios and cocaine, I'm not holding out much hope for you.05:27
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pupnikhave you tried both, derf?05:34
derfNo, I haven't.05:34
derfI also don't need to try jumping off a bridge to know that it might be harmful.05:34
pupnikyou are imagining a qualitative difference where there is only a quantitative one05:35
derfI didn't say the difference was qualitative.05:35
derfI just said they were different.05:35
derfIf the difference is purely quantitative, it is rather substantial.05:36
pupnikah ok so your policy advocacy is not based on right and wrong and the nature of things, but some utilitarian ideal of social engineering05:36
derfI'm not sure I've advocated a policy.05:36
pupnikcoast guard interdictions05:36
derfI understand the arguments for drug legalization, and I'm sympathetic to the reports from the Netherlands, Portugal, etc., that suggest regulating it instead reduces crime, usage, and many other things.05:37
derfWhether it is legal and regulated or illegal, somebody is going to have to deal with smuggling.05:37
derfAnd on the open seas, that somebody is the Coast Guard.05:38
pupnikmaybe we could wrap this up?  i would just ask that you look for employment opportunities in voluntary services, not forced ones05:38
derfAbsolutely no one is arguing with a straight face that it should be completely unregulated.05:38
pupniksorry many are now advocating just that05:39
derfI don't recall being forced into this job.05:39
derfpupnik: I think you are confused.05:39
pupnikif you are working for defense, your pay is derived from coerced taxes05:39
pupniki.e. not voluntary services05:39
pupnikthat was all i wanted to mention05:39
derfOkay. I think everyone knows how government works.05:40
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lubomirshort question aboit the Nokia N900 btw maemo 505:42
lubomiris it possible to use the phone as an mobile acces point?05:43
lubomirto share the internet connection05:43
pupnikgood question05:43
derfAlso, as long as we're talking about "voluntary", I thought this was hilarious:
pupniki have read on wiki that the stock kernel does not support NAT lubomir - this may be a problem for that but i'm not sure.05:44
lubomirNAT = netfilter?05:44
pupnikwell maybe a userspace proxy would work05:45
pupnikgood question, anyone know answers?05:45
lubomirbecause on android i must enable netfilter in the kernel to get that functionality05:45
pupniklubomir: network address translation05:45
lubomirand how is the battery live?05:45
pupniki just was looking and found that wiki page05:46
pupnikvery very dependent on software use lubomir05:46
luke-jrpupnik: NAT is an ugly hack anyway05:46
pupnikbut i think maemo apps might be more power saving than android05:46
luke-jrjust setup IPv605:46
derfluke-jr: Tell that to half the internet.05:46
pupnikluke-jr: anybody using their n900 for dun networking?05:46
derfProbably far more than half at this point.05:46
lubomiri know that battery live is software dependent. i mean when using browser for ~20minutes a day, telephone 2 minutes and write the one or other sms05:48
lubomirhow long does it run?05:48
pupnikmaybe there are threads on  my few days use was fairly heavy interaction and i needed to charge after a morning's use05:48
lubomirpupnik, so on heavy load -> 24hours?05:49
pupnikcontinuous use by me was maybe 605:49
pupnikoccasional checking of webpages probably > 4805:49
lubomiri never reached 48hours with my android phone :D05:50
pupnikreally, maemo sleeps well05:50
lubomironly if disable umts and never touch it05:50
lubomirwhat kernel version?05:51
pupnikdunno - whatever on the summit prototypeds05:51
lubomirso not final?05:51
pupniki don't know what they're doing with final flashing05:52
lubomiris there a git or so for selfcompiling and putting on phone?05:52
pupnikhow would they ship them without the OS already flashed by now - i dunno05:52
pupnikthe OS?05:52
pupnikmuch is open-source but not all05:53
pupniksee the mer project for a full open-source implementation05:53
luke-jrlubomir: N900, like its predecessor models, is closed05:53
luke-jrpupnik: Mer is not full open either05:53
lubomirfor example you can find the opensource part of android for free05:53
pupnikoh mer includes some driver blobs luke-jr ?05:54
Stskeepsluke-jr: oi, thats not right05:54
luke-jrMer for Nxx0 is not open ;)05:54
lubomirit seems like i have to sell my android phone in future...05:54
Stskeepsmer core is open and we dont yet put out images with evil bits in them.05:54
* pupnik grumbles05:54
pupnikopen enough for me really05:54
lubomirand thats a special one...05:54
luke-jrStskeeps: only because you can't05:54
luke-jrlubomir: why?05:55
pupnikand i'm pretty open-sourcey05:55
lubomiri was one of ~6 people in germany who get that 4free05:55
lubomirand was the official tester05:55
Stskeepsluke-jr: and the idea is to always provide open images without the bits.05:55
pupnikbut come on, nokia has agreements and stuff.  apis.05:55
luke-jrStskeeps: but those images won't work on Nxx0 yet05:55
luke-jrpupnik: not for the battery05:55
Stskeepsluke-jr: sure they will. flash only rootfs05:55
Stskeepsso, in this case, shut the fuck up.05:55
luke-jrStskeeps: then you at least lose GPS for N81005:56
Stskeepsour images are still open source05:56
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ali1234there is NO fully working, fully open source phone. period.05:57
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luke-jrali1234: yet... :/05:57
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Macerwow. maemo5 looks absolutely awesome in the vids05:58
lubomirwhat N900 have(and i want/need) what my android doesn have: flash, gpu-chip, faster cpu, more ram,better display resolution, carl-zeiss cam, realy high video resolution (i have now 320*240),...05:58
microlithlubomir: what phone is it?05:58
lubomirah, and eAAC+ support, i dont have at the moment05:58
luke-jrlubomir: wtf device lacks flash?05:58
lubomiryea, only 1 or 2 androud phones have flash05:59
luke-jrI doubt that.05:59
luke-jrwhat do they put the OS on?05:59
microlithI think he means high flash capacity05:59
luke-jrmicrolith: that's what SD cards are for05:59
Stskeepsluke-jr: if you keep persisting mer isnt open source, do me a favour and leave #mer. you shouldnt be in channels against your own semi religious belief.06:00
lubomirmicrolith, samsung galaxy. oled screen, 7,2down, 5,76up(THAT doesnt have the N900 ... :-(  ), and so on06:00
derfI think he means a Flash player in the browser.06:00
Macerwell... doesn't n900 use ssd?06:00
Macerand not just an internal sd?06:00
microlithderf: you're probably right -_-06:00
luke-jrMacer: SD is SSD06:00
Macerssd has higher r/w06:01
microliththe N900 uses an internal eMMC chip06:01
derfThough, unlike the iPhone, apparently Android will eventually ship that.06:01
luke-jrMacer: and no, afaik, N900 is the same as N810 in that respect-- NAND + SD06:01
Macersd = secure disk06:01
Macerssd = solid state drive06:01
luke-jrderf: Flash is crap06:01
luke-jrMacer: SD = SecureDigital flash06:01
derfluke-jr: I don't disagree.06:01
Maceroh .. well whatever :)06:01
luke-jrMacer: which is a Solid State Disk06:01
Macerwith slower io06:01
Macerdependent on the reader i suppose but nonetheless.. ssd can go faster06:02
luke-jrafaik all SSD have slow IO06:02
* Macer looks at the intel ssd06:02
luke-jrat least for their blocklayer emulation06:02
* microlith senses mixed terminology...06:02
Maceri don't know. seems to give much faster write speed and amazingly fast read and access time06:02
Maceras opposed to 6MB/s :)06:02
Macerso i am sure the technology is slightly different06:02
luke-jrdo SATA SSD support raw NAND/NOR access?06:03
luke-jrMacer: I think the bus is just faster06:03
microlithall raw flash access is hidden behind a controller with custom logic06:03
Macerluke-jr: then the question stands do they use sd or ssd?06:03
microlithand no SSD uses NOR for primary data storage06:03
lubomircan i find somewhere the realy techincal specs of the N900?06:03
Macerthey are not the same if they use a different bus :) i mean the storage tech is but the access tech isn't06:03
Macerso what does the n900 use?06:04
microlithN900 uses eMMC06:04
Macermicrolith: for its "1GB" of memory?06:04
microlithfor its 32GB06:04
luke-jrMacer: they use SD, a kind of SSD06:04
lubomirwhat is that 768mb ? is it swap on the eMMC?06:05
Maceri thought n900 uses a swap in order to give it "1GB" of memory using ssd tech for better speeds06:05
microlithit does06:05
microlithit has 256MB of physical ram06:05
Macer256M physical and 768 swap06:05
microlithand a 768MB swap partition on the eMMC card06:05
Macerwhat are the speeds on the swap?06:05
luke-jrMacer: that swap comes out of the 32 GB eMMC06:05
lubomiri have to recompile my kernel on my android for swap...06:05
Macerwhat are the speeds for their eMMC?06:06
* luke-jr personally thinks advertising swap as "memory", at least that much, is false advertising06:06
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lubomirdoes anywhone know where i could find the realy technical data of the N900?06:06
lubomirluke-jr, yea, real ram is always better06:06
luke-jrlubomir: my N810 at least can't handle swapping even 2x its own RAM06:07
luke-jryet N900 advertises swap of 3x06:07
luke-jrhas anyone even tested if it's possible to use it all?06:07
lubomirhm, when noone know where to find the real technical data - for example what wlan-chipset is there build in?06:08
microlithlubomir: I suspect we won't know until it's out and someone like iFixit does a teardown06:09
luke-jrStskeeps could probably answer06:09
lubomirahm, what does lspci say?06:09
microliththat said, I suspect it's probably lots of TI chips06:09
Stskeepslubomir: wl1251 i think06:09
Stskeepsthere is a dmesg published somewhere06:09
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luke-jrlubomir: keep in mind most people don't have N900s :p06:10
lubomirargh. i hate TI...06:10
Macerluke-jr: false advertising is ai saying the touchbook can last 12 hours and not having proper pm so it lasts for 706:11
luke-jrI mean, I don't especially like TI either, but afaik WiFi hasn't been a problem06:11
lubomirclosed source06:11
Macerfor that i might as well just use my aspire106:11
Stskeepslubomir: open driver06:11
Macerwhich is 5x faster and lasts just as long06:11
Stskeepsgo look in kernel, its there06:11
luke-jrMacer: or Nokia saying the N810 can last a month, and it really only handling about 3 hours06:11
microlithMacer: speaking of aspire ones, would you know of any place that sells replacement parts for those things?06:11
Macerluke-jr: i disagree06:11
RurouniJonesHmm, I read on some #maemo logfiles found via google that people are considering porting the Quassel-client to the N900 with an altered interface. Can anyone confirm / deny / provide info?06:11
luke-jrlubomir: afaik, all Nokia's handhelds have open drivers for wifi06:11
lubomirStskeeps, what kernel? offical one?06:11
Maceri have had my n810 last a very long time in lower power modes06:11
Stskeepslubomir: yeah06:12
luke-jrRurouniJones: I run Quassel on my N81006:12
Macerand it usually lasts quite a bit of time in use actually06:12
luke-jrMacer: a month?06:12
Maceri'd put my n810 at around 6 hours of use06:12
lubomir*quickly run make menuconfig*06:12
RurouniJoneslubomir: But does it have a customized interface for a small screen?06:12
Macerluke-jr: probably not that long, but i have had it last well over 2 weeks if i don' ttouch it06:12
luke-jrRurouniJones: the problems are GPS, battery, FM radio, and GSM afaik06:12
Macerand that is using the internal sd as its boot drive so i am sure that probably uses a bit more power06:12
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Macermaybe the internal flash is a bit more optimized for it but i never ran it for long off the internal flash06:13
luke-jrMacer: 2 weeks is 50%. 7 hours vs 12 hours is almost 60%06:13
lubomiryea, cool, CONFIG_WL12XX06:13
Macerluke-jr: but the speed loss of the touchbook isn't worth it06:13
Macerit is incredibly slow :)06:13
Macermostly because i am running desktop OSes on it06:13
Stskeepsgive it to me :P06:14
MacerStskeeps: i might some day in the near future tbh06:14
Macerlet me get my n900 first ;)06:14
luke-jrMacer: get me a N900 too?06:14
Maceryou're paying for the shipping this time tho :-P06:14
lubomirit seems like the N900 is what the android never was for me...06:14
Macerandroid is a total let down06:15
luke-jrmy i.MX515 proposal was accepted06:15
Macersome of the newer roms are pretty good but overall it totally blows :)06:15
luke-jrwonder why they didn't email me06:15
lubomirMacer, its sooooo slow06:15
Macerbecause they took your idea as its own06:15
luke-jrStskeeps: guess I have a new toy to port Mer to06:15
Macerlubomir: JF 1.51 isn't too bad06:15
Maceri know hero roms were very slow but have gotten better06:15
lubomirMacer, there is no JF for galaxy :P06:15
Macereverybody seems to be going towards the cyanogen ones nowadays06:15
Macerlubomir: not familiar what kind of hardware it has06:16
Maceri have a G106:16
luke-jrand an opportunity to build my own handheld..06:16
Stskeepsluke-jr: mm, fwd to please06:16
luke-jrStskeeps: fwd what?06:16
Maceranyways. i am 2 steps shy of preordering an n900 but i'll wait06:16
Maceri preordered a touchbook and am disappointed.. hopefully i can find an os that doesn't suck for it :)06:17
Macerat the least.. something that i can stick it to the wall with06:17
Macerand not use the kb attachment06:17
Stskeepswell your proposal and such06:17
luke-jrStskeeps: see link06:17
luke-jrthere's no emails to fwd yet06:18
Stskeepsor just mentioning it in public06:18
lubomirthanks @ all. i go to bad now. see ya06:18
Stskeepson the lists06:18
Stskeeps.log helps06:18
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Stskeepsluke-jr: congrats, now please dont make us ashamed of you :)06:19
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`Macedamn this n900 looks awesome06:40
RurouniJonesSomeone with skills needs to write a Japanese Hand-writing recognition program using Tomoe ( as the engine06:46
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RurouniJonesOr hildonize the main app...hmmmm06:46
microlithRurouniJones: if anyone starts up a project to do so, I'm game :)06:52
RurouniJonesHehe, I am actually looking at a few handwriting recognition engines. Looks like Zinnia would be good for the N90006:52
RurouniJones - This is an AJAXy site using Tomoe06:53
* RurouniJones continues his plan to turn the N900 into a Japanese learning app06:56
RurouniJonesright, back to the simple quiz :p06:56
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`Macenow i have to buy a new ssl cert06:57
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RurouniJonesDesign question. I have a and a When a new question is displayed should I A) Called the gui code to get the data and create the question widgets from or B) Collect the quiz data and create the wigets from within a function?07:07
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BBNSmmmm Mac Tethering on N900:
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keesjlcuk: did you submit a push n900 project?08:03
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dmj7261another nice thing about phones like the n900, no need for things like the Datapilot to add custom ringtones or backup contacts.08:37
dmj7261contacts are just a copyable file in home folder, right?08:38
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timeless_mbpfor backup?08:43
timeless_mbpi'm not sure if it's one file or closer to 1008:45
timeless_mbpbut custom ringtones...08:45
timeless_mbpwe don't support per contact ring tones :(08:45
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dmj7261by custom, I mean things like:
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dmj7261things that I wrote08:50
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RST38hmoo wazd09:31
wazdRST38h: heya09:32
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microlithcan we get a ban on that?10:21
RurouniJonesCould do with a bit of design help if anyone is free:
*** ad-n770 has joined #maemo10:26, and So far all is good10:26
RurouniJonesgui starts, displays a question etc10:26
RurouniJonescrap, BRB10:28
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* lardman wonders if the upgrade to Ubuntu 9.04 was a mistake10:29
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dmj7261...why 9.04?10:29 the way 9.10 is pretty excellent10:29
lardmanthat's the latest non-Beta afaiu10:29
lardmanah, perhaps that's the one then, let me check10:29
dmj7261you just upgraded?10:29
lardmanbusy summer, and it was all working, so I left it be10:30
dmj72619.10 is RC right now10:30
dmj7261I've been using it since beta, never installed 9.0410:30
dmj7261too many problems10:30
lardmanyeah, I get random hard lockups10:31
dmj72619.10's biggest problem in my book is the touchpad defaults10:31
lardmanno problem for a desktop machine then for me10:31
dmj7261(the exact opposite of what they should be)10:31
dmj7261none whatsoever.10:31
dmj7261the other big problem is bland default wallpaper10:32
dmj7261and the lack of pidgin10:32
dmj7261empathy doesn't do off-the-record messaging.10:32
RST38hheya lardman10:32
lardmanhi RST38h10:32
RST38hAnyone know what /usr/lib/locale-archive file is?10:33
RST38hAnd can I delete it?10:33
RurouniJonesOk back. so with regards to the program linked above. All the code is being used to init the program and draw the screen for the first time (and connect the buttons). My quesiton is how I should go about handling actual program logic now. coming from RubyOnRails I am thinking MVC, classes are the model. class is the controller ang class is the view.10:33
lardmanhmm, so how to I do the upgrade to 9.10-* then?10:33
dmj7261are  you wanting to upgrade or install fresh?10:33
lardmandmj7261: upgrade10:33
dmj7261should be instructions for that10:33
RurouniJonesMy question is how I should handle things like displaying a new question. My thinking is that I should use johote to do the logic. But how do I pass a referance of the gui class that is created when the app first starts up?10:34
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lardmanis Karmic 9.10?10:34
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dmj7261I did a clean install, since I didn't feel like subjecting my machines to a 3rd upgrade10:34
lardmandmj7261: apparently all I need do is: gksudo update-manager -d10:34
dmj7261that sounds right10:35
* lardman considers loosing another whole day sorting out upgrade issues10:35
dmj7261boots fast too.10:35
* lardman considers that he already looses a fair few hours a day doing reboots to recover from hard lockups10:35
dmj7261...faster than 8.04 and 8.1010:35
RST38hOh shit what did I do =)10:35
dmj7261yeah, don't put up with hard lockups10:36
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lardmanright time to upgrade, bbl, hopefully ;)10:42
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timeless_mbpdoes anyone know where 41-10 is?10:56
timeless_mbpsuihkulokki: all i can find is something similar to 41-1010:56
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* timeless_mbp pokes suihkulokki 11:03
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timeless_mbpwow, bug 4955 sucks11:04
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epa_how does one call emergency calls with N900 if it is in "Lock mode" and asks device pin to open itself?11:35
qwerty12_N810Just put the emergency call number as the pin and a new button appears11:36
TomaszDyou can bypass pin check11:36
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wazd_reheya all11:47
RurouniJonesAre there any maemo developer forums?11:47
RurouniJonesMaemo5 specific would be nice11:48
lirinow that TI are releasing drivers would that mean that flash perforamce on the tablet will increase?11:48
wazd_RurouniJones: not really, but we have annual cave meetings :D11:48
RurouniJonesHrmm, bit of a bugger.11:49
achipa_i1ssiliri: flash doesn't use powervr acceleration anyway, so my guess is no11:51
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epa_qwerty12_N810: ok thanks. seems to be same with N90012:09
epa_I was thinking it would be nice to have some way to be able to call designated ICE numbers as well.12:09
epa_it is pointless to have ICE contact in a phone if no one can call it when something happens.12:10
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epa_what would be the correct forum to discuss about those issues?12:14
epa_brainstorming page?12:14
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wazd_ hehe12:26
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* SpeedEvil stabs patent examiners.12:29
SpeedEvilpressure sensitive multitouch is a _trivial_ extension over multitouch.12:29
SpeedEvilIt's _completely_ obvious that you might want it12:29
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SpeedEvil(and there are only a few ways, all with prior art you might detect pressure12:30
zerojayN900can someone do me a favor and just close down the maemo-community mailing list?12:30
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zerojayN900it's clearly a useless piece of shit.12:31
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SpeedEvilI assume nobody knows the gory details of the TV-out port?13:41
SpeedEvilI got to wondering if it is capable of - if you feed it a fake framebuffer, and lie a lot, it's possible to use it a generic high-speed out. Specifically for dvb-t13:41
SpeedEvil(with a modulator)13:42
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ShapeshifterSpeedEvil: huh, is it digital?13:42
SpeedEvilShapeshifter: no - the noral output is analog composite.13:44
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SpeedEvilBut in principle, if you can generate the dvb-t signal fast enough, the bandwidth is no higher than dvb-t -  It needs fed through a RF modulator to make a proper signal of course13:45
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* timeless_mbp solved a few string conflicts13:47
SpeedEvilShapeshifter: see - for wackiness13:47
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paperclip1timeless_mbp: How's Mer localization coming on?13:51
timeless_mbpit's mostly on hold unless someone tells me there's something specific i need to do for it13:51
timeless_mbpif there are strings that are missing/need help, a bug can be filed on me in, i'm very bugmail driven13:52
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* timeless_mbp goes back to responding to a bugmail13:52
timeless_mbppaperclip1: after i finish this bugmail, i am going to try to finish a l10n merge and then incorporate ~20 string fixes13:52
timeless_mbp(collected from 5-10 people -- yay)13:52
paperclip1timeless_mbp: Thanks.13:53
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timeless_mbpin case people are curious, i myself can't find any sign of the 41-10 flash14:14
timeless_mbpso, the ability for us to generally distribute it might be a lot harder than it would seem :)14:14
qwerty12_N810I wouldn't say that...14:14
timeless_mbpwhy not?14:14
timeless_mbpi tried, i couldn't find it14:15
timeless_mbpit might say that i'm an idiot, or don't know where to look14:15
timeless_mbpor maybe it's well hidden14:15
timeless_mbpi looked in the obvious place, and it wasn't there :)14:15
qwerty12_N810Because even I have it, given to us by Nokia to update the loaners given before the Summit14:15
timeless_mbpcan i have it? :)14:16
timeless_mbp(you probably shouldn't share it actually)14:16
qwerty12_N810You answered your own question :)14:16
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timeless_mbpqwerty12_N810: what i find amusing is that it's not one of the builds we can update the devices *we* were given14:18
timeless_mbpso, we can't easily run the same firmware you guys have :o14:18
timeless_mbpi'm sure there's some way to get it,... but, it isn't as easy as picking any normal build that we normally would pick14:18
qwerty12_N810Bleh, you're probably running 45-99 by now14:18
timeless_mbpi'm running 37, 39, and 4114:19
timeless_mbpi just upgraded one device from 37 to 4114:19
timeless_mbppeople at the summit met my devices running 37 and 3914:19
timeless_mbpthe devices we were given (which happened *after* the summit) were running 3714:19
MrGoosew00t: my sympathies are with you14:20
w00tMrGoose: hmm?14:20
MrGoosebet its going to be december14:24
w00tpersonally, I doubt it14:24
w00tit'd kinda be shooting the christmas sales (or what's left of them) in the ass14:24
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w00tbbiab, cleaning time14:25
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timeless_mbpoh right14:53
timeless_mbpcould people w/ n900s please hunt down WPS routers?14:54
timeless_mbpplease try to connect to them w/ your n90014:54
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timeless_mbpif you have any problems, please please record the make/model and file a bug w/ detailed steps and notes. (plus screen captures)14:54
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timeless_mbpi'm having trouble w/ one and i know it's a relatively rough edge, as at this time they're relatively rare in terms of general deployment14:55
timeless_mbpalthough i was in one place where there were at least half a dozen14:55
timeless_mbpso their uptake is very fast, but it wasn't really around during our dev cycle14:55
* timeless_mbp sighs14:57
* timeless_mbp shakes head14:57
* timeless_mbp smacks head against a brick wall14:57
lcukwhats the wall done to you?14:58
timeless_mbpit's comforting me after reading nokia strings14:59
SpeedEvil _wacky_15:00
* timeless_mbp objects to the engb output15:08
* qwerty12_N810 objects to timeless_mbp15:09
timeless_mbpoverruled :)15:09
* timeless_mbp frowns15:10
ShadowJKwhat's WPS?15:10
timeless_mbpWiFi Protected Setup15:11
timeless_mbpit's basically push-button wifi pairing15:11
timeless_mbpif you've used Bluetooth 2.1 pairing, it's similar15:11
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GAN900ShadowJK, that AOSS shit.15:11
GAN900That's on most Nintendo and Buffalo products.15:12
ShadowJKI haven't figured out how to pair anything on bluetooth since BlueZ 4 came15:12
timeless_mbpthe first image there15:12
ShadowJKthe tools stopped working at that point iirc15:12
timeless_mbpbasically instead of you having to pick a number or, having the computer generate a number15:12
timeless_mbpand then you having to enter it on the other device15:13
timeless_mbpthe devices both agree on a number, and show it on both sides15:13
timeless_mbp(at least in bluetooth 2.1)15:13
timeless_mbpyou then merely confirm "yep, they have the same number"15:13
timeless_mbpno typing required15:13
timeless_mbpWPS is similar15:13
timeless_mbpit can be pushbutton based15:13
timeless_mbpe.g. you start to connect your device, you push a button on the router, you tell your device "continue"15:14
timeless_mbpa temporary "trust the device you're talking to *now*" mode15:14
timeless_mbpthe idea w/ all of these things is that if you're physically close and can touch both devices w/in limited time T, you're trustworthy15:15
timeless_mbpit's similar to wifi basestations where the password is written on the top :)15:16
timeless_mbpnote that i've had really bad luck trying to use WPS15:16
timeless_mbpso i can't really speak from "it works"15:16
timeless_mbpi think i've had it work in exactly 1 / 5 attempts *EVER*15:16
* timeless_mbp hasn't met many touchable WPS devices15:17
ShadowJKMy linksys has a button called "Secure Easy Setup". Apparently it requires the CD that came with it. I'm not stupid enough to insert discs that comes with hardware into computers.15:17
timeless_mbpbut at this point 99% of the WiFi stations sold include them15:17
timeless_mbpthat might be wps15:17
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timeless_mbpsadly, it isn't15:17
ifreqnot sure bout the 99% part15:18
ShadowJKYeah I was going to say they've had it since 2002 or so and are still selling the same model :)15:18
timeless_mbpifreq: i was at a computer um... hrm... second hand shook in Kiev15:18
timeless_mbpmost of the devices sold *there* had it15:18
timeless_mbpand i could buy just about anything there, from the past 2 decades15:18
timeless_mbp(maybe even 3 decades)15:18
ifreqive used many products and only buffalo had it15:18
ifreqor do dlink, linksys, apple airport have it?15:19
ifreqi dunno about some not well know model/manufacturer15:19
GAN900My WRT320N has it.15:19
ifreqhavent seen it on zyxell yet15:19
ifreqGAN900: well im sure 99& is not the right percent value :)15:20
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* timeless_mbp sighs15:20
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* timeless_mbp kicks the wifi alliance15:20
timeless_mbptheir web site sucks15:20
timeless_mbpso linksys definitely has it15:21
ShadowJKhm, looking at verkkokauppa, the 3 top selling models don't have it, but the fourth one has it :)15:21
timeless_mbpas do netgear and dlink15:22
timeless_mbpShadowJK: finns are stupid :)15:22
ifreqShadowJK: it doesnt make it 99%15:22
ifreq99 is almost like all15:22
timeless_mbpifreq: i'm the one making the 99% claim15:22
timeless_mbpnot ShadowJK15:22
timeless_mbpsmc has it15:22
timeless_mbpeven belkin has it15:22
ifreqtimeless_mbp: yeh but i wasn answering to ShadowJK15:22
ShadowJKyou were15:22
* timeless_mbp insults ifreq 's irc client for him15:23
timeless_mbpthere are 9 zyxel's w/ wps15:23
ifreqyes. io commented to you of verkkokauppa comment15:23
timeless_mbpaccording to my second url :)15:23
ShadowJKSecond most sold AP on verkkokauppa has WDS support though :)15:23
ifreqhow many xyzel wifi aps is around15:23
timeless_mbpthat's assuming isn't broken15:23
timeless_mbpZyXEL NBG-417N - wireless router15:24
timeless_mbpdefinitely has it15:24
ifreqtimeless_mbp: and what makes finns stupid? :)15:24
timeless_mbpifreq: they'll buy anything15:24
timeless_mbpand they don't return anything15:24
ifreqyeh and you buy nokia15:24
timeless_mbp= SHEEP15:24
ifreqso whos the stupid one15:24
ifreqor leenox, irssi etc15:24
timeless_mbpbuy nokia?15:24
timeless_mbpi work for nokia15:24
ifreqfinns definitely are stupid15:24
timeless_mbpif you mean i was stupid to take a job @ nokia, you're right15:24
timeless_mbpbut at this point, i'm kinda in sales15:25
ifreqah why do you work for fin company? :P15:25
timeless_mbpi have an n900 out on loan to someone, who's likely to buy one in a while15:25
timeless_mbp(if management ever lets them get to stores...)15:25
* ifreq is using airport extreme as wifi ap. no wds (thought no need)15:25
timeless_mbpit's P not D15:25
ShadowJKtimeless_mbp, people not returning stuff is kinda amazing, considering how easy it's been made15:26
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timeless_mbpShadowJK: heh15:26
ShadowJKBut atleast my parents have this strange notion that returning a product would always end up in days of arguing with the salesperson15:26
timeless_mbpwhat amuses me is that most finns aren't even sure if they cn return stuff15:26
infobottimeless_mbp meant: what amuses me is that most finns aren't even sure if they can return stuff15:26
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ShadowJKheck, if you buy something online or through mailorder, you can return it for FREE within 14 days, "no questions asked", and shipping back costs you nothing.15:27
timeless_mbposx definitely has wps support15:28
timeless_mbpmy guess is that the next version of apple's basestation will15:28
fralsthats pretty neat when i bought my lcd (before pretty much all vendors started with 0 dead pixel policy), just order it online and return if there were dead pixels <315:28
ifreqmakes me wonder why buy stuff you need to return (unless its broken). I usually look for item one or month months and check about quality etc.15:29
timeless_mbp> Apple's AirPort Extreme Base Station with 802.11n that shipped in February includes WPS, but not under that name; it requires an 802.11n adapter and Mac OS X to negotiate via WPS.15:29
ShadowJKa search on verkkokauppa finds <18 APs with WPS, out of >100 models15:29
ifreqbad habit to make ideas and buy stuff in a flash15:29
ShadowJKeven so..15:30
ShadowJKThe cheapest quality control is the one you push onto your customers :)15:30
timeless_mbpso it looks like airport extreme /kinda/ has it15:30
timeless_mbpShadowJK: finns will buy anything15:30
timeless_mbpwhy shouldn't verokauppa sell its old stock?15:30
timeless_mbpfwiw, i've been told amusing anecdotes about how Milk is sold in finnland15:31
ShadowJKVerkkokauppa itself is having "new" ones made that cost 19.90 and have no WPS :)15:31
ShadowJKand people are buying them15:31
timeless_mbpthe claim is that it's first stocked in one store15:31
timeless_mbpand when they get old, they're transfered to other stores :)15:31
ifreqShadowJK: 19.90 wifi ap is great btw. it works "OK" and fit regular ppl needs15:32
ifreqShadowJK: havent even bugged out :)15:32
timeless_mbpifreq: more like "wan-party device"15:32
timeless_mbpuse once15:32
timeless_mbpthrow away15:33
timeless_mbpor give away as a party gift15:33
ShadowJKYeah. I bought a similar but different brand cheap-o-AP a year or two ago. It has about 4X better reach than the 4 times more expensive Linksys I have :)15:33
ifreqits ok for ppl who dont need special req15:33
ifreqtimeless_mbp: well i gave it as a gift15:33
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ifreqtimeless_mbp: as he didnt have any ap atm15:33
* timeless_mbp nods15:33
ifreqso it was better than nuttin15:33
timeless_mbpsp3000 did something similar15:33
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timeless_mbpanyway... enough bashing of consumerism (or absolute lack thereof) in finland15:34
timeless_mbplet's bash finnish English!15:34
ifreqgotta pack up my stuff, my "driver" is coming and giving me a ride to next town15:34
ifreqso cyas :)15:34
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timeless_mbp"driver"? is it a she? :)15:34
ifreqnope, my gf's cousins dad15:34
ShadowJKThe trick to buying milk is to stick in your head far into the fridge and get milk from the back, which has almost 6 days before expiry!15:34
ShadowJKthe oldest is in front :)15:34
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ifreqbeats the travel by train thought15:34
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ifreqgot my suit and stuff with me.. so sux to carry them around15:35
* timeless_mbp shrugs15:35
SpeedEvilShadowJK: the trick to buying milk is to say 'meh - UHT has gotten a hell of a lot better than it was'15:35
timeless_mbpi traveled through eastern Europe w/ a suit carrier15:35
* SpeedEvil has 2 months milk in the cupboard15:35
timeless_mbpSpeedEvil: heh15:35
ShadowJKUHT is kinda costly :)15:35
SpeedEvilShadowJK: not here15:36
SpeedEviltescos it's the same price15:36
timeless_mbpthe trick to buying milk is to have your guests buy it on the way up :)15:36
timeless_mbpthey buy what they need, and drink it15:36
ShadowJKiirc it was double cost here last time I checked..15:36
timeless_mbpthe other trick is getting them to empty your fridge/trash on their way out :)15:36
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* timeless_mbp sighs15:39
ShadowJKyou never got started on the bashing finglish thing15:39
timeless_mbpoh, i'm doing it now15:40
timeless_mbpthat's why i'm sighing15:40
SpeedEvilShadowJK: actually - looking - it's 63p/l vs 66 for fresh milk.15:40
ShadowJKafter sighing comes drinking, but unfortunately you can only get lager15:41
timeless_mbpi can't afford to drink. i live in Finland, it'd kill me15:41
timeless_mbp(And my wallet)15:41
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lcukbrew your own!15:41
* SpeedEvil was about to suggest that.15:41
timeless_mbpi want to keep my liver15:41
* SpeedEvil doesn't drink at all. (alcohols)15:42
* timeless_mbp neither15:42
SpeedEvilWell - that's not _quite_ true.15:42
SpeedEvilLiqueur chocolates.15:42
timeless_mbpliqueur desserts ?15:43
SpeedEvilLittle expensive chocolates, which sometimes have alcohol in their ingredients15:43
timeless_mbp(where the alcohol is cooked away)15:43
SpeedEvilin the gooey filling15:43
timeless_mbpi know, i'm suggesting another case15:43
* SpeedEvil sighs. 15:43
* SpeedEvil is concentrating too much on food ATM - dieting.15:44
SpeedEvil~1kg/week so far15:44
SpeedEvil-1kg, to be specific.15:44
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ShadowJKSounds like alot15:44
SpeedEvilI want to lose ~15-20.15:44
* timeless_mbp should do that15:45
SpeedEviltimeless: doing that too.15:45
SpeedEvilIt's to partially pay for my n900 too.15:45
timeless_mbpaSIMULAtur is supposed to show me frizbee golf somewhere around here15:45
timeless_mbpthere's eCoach once you get it :)15:45
SpeedEvilI suggested last night we need optical calorie recognition, for the maemo eats project.15:45
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ShadowJKHow does it pay for n900?15:46
timeless_mbpbuying less means instant savings15:46
SpeedEvilShadowJK: halves spending on food15:46
ShadowJKOh right15:46
timeless_mbpi spend 25 EUR a day on meals15:46
derfThat's insane.15:46
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timeless_mbpfor one month, that's what, ~500 EUR ?15:47
* ShadowJK is probably at 10 per day15:47
SpeedEvilI've recently been spending only 4-5 quid on food/day - but still - halving that is not inconsiderable15:47
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timeless_mbpwell, the meal @works is roughly 7 EUR15:47
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timeless_mbpthe dinner is roughly 9-15 EUR15:47
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timeless_mbpmy meals on saturday night and sunday are typically more expensive15:48
* timeless_mbp doesn't cook15:48
SpeedEvilCooking is fun!15:48
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SpeedEvilAnd quick - if you do it right. Slow cooking a _huge_ pot of stuff, and freezing most of it immediately.15:48
SpeedEvilWhip something out, bang in refrigerator.15:48
derfI spend roughly $40/week on groceries and probably less than that on eating out.15:48
lcuk€25 a day is a lot for one person!15:48
SpeedEvilbang in microwave15:48
derfAnd I don't cook, either.15:49
derfI could cut that down a _lot_, if I had to.15:49
timeless_mbpin the US, i was living on ~$20/week iirc in philadelphia15:49
timeless_mbpkraft macaroni and cheese + milk + orange juice15:49
timeless_mbpi could have cut the tropicana oj if i really needed to15:50
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derfI'm not sure I'd recommend that, though.15:50
timeless_mbpi had bagged salads too15:50
timeless_mbpor just lettuce leafs15:50
lcukwith free meat sometimes if small creatures remained15:50
timeless_mbpit was probably healthier than what i get here15:50
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timeless_mbp(which is pretty sad any way you look at it)15:51
timeless_mbplcuk: not kosher15:51
derfRemind me not to move there.15:51
derfWherever you are.15:52
timeless_mbpnote that helsinki has a higher base cost for all food elements15:52
timeless_mbpwith the exception, *possibly* of strawberries and cloudberries15:52
lcukand mushrooms15:52
timeless_mbpand only for a very small growing season15:52
timeless_mbplcuk: poisonous? :)15:52
ShadowJKCloudberries :-)15:52
tbfindeed. food is quite expensive in HEL15:52
lcuktimeless, ask aSIMULAtur about that part15:52
timeless_mbphrm, i think she's mentioned it actually15:53
tbfwell, but not half as nuts as flat rents15:53
* timeless_mbp shrugs15:53
timeless_mbpi think in downtown that's around 900 EUR/mo15:54
timeless_mbpi'm not sure, i bought15:54
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timeless_mbpit was worth it15:54
tbftimeless_mbp: yes, seems buying is the only sane thing you can do in HEL15:54
timeless_mbpit is15:55
timeless_mbpbut you have to do it when you arrive15:55
timeless_mbpevery year you wait hurts your ability to buy15:55
timeless_mbpbecause pay does not rise wrt housing value15:55
* timeless_mbp has met people who have been here for a couple of years, and they're mostly screwed15:55
tbftimeless_mbp: yup15:56
timeless_mbpn.b. i'm not saying value rises very fast15:56
timeless_mbpi'm saying that salaries rise much slower! :)15:56
timeless_mbpparse failure:15:56
timeless_mbpan ad for 'korean free economic zones'15:56
timeless_mbpanyone want to try parsing that? :)15:57
tbftimeless_mbp: takes a while to understand you have to buy, went you come from some country where you usually rent because it's much cheaper15:57
* timeless_mbp nods15:57
lcukareas in korea where free trading is permitted, or areas of the world where there are no koreans15:57
timeless_mbppoor Poles15:57
timeless_mbplcuk: they meant the former15:58
timeless_mbptoo bad the latter is the default parsing15:58
timeless_mbpthe really sad thing...15:58
timeless_mbpthey paid a native speaker to read it15:58
timeless_mbpthey should have paid him to tell them to pick something else15:58
tbfadd berlin: here you get 200 m² for 900 EUR15:58
* timeless_mbp ndos15:59
timeless_mbpwe lost a coworker recently because he got a job in berlin15:59
timeless_mbphe's definitely buying15:59
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timeless_mbpok. stupid question16:00
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timeless_mbpif i call HAM "Add/Remove"16:01
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timeless_mbpis there any reason i shouldn't say "Adding (x)" and "Removing (y)" ?16:01
timeless_mbptoday we use "Installing" and "Uninstalling"16:01
SpeedEvilI think you should simplify the language. Adding and unadding.16:02
* SpeedEvil read 1984.16:02
timeless_mbpSpeedEvil: um...16:02
timeless_mbpnokia tried that16:02
derfThe latter seems plusgood to me.16:02
timeless_mbppeople w/ an n900 can see '%d undone tasks'16:02
timeless_mbpon their home screen by default...16:03
* timeless_mbp grinds teeth16:03
* timeless_mbp finds a nice brick wall and bangs head repeatedly16:03
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jeremiahI vote for Adding and Removing.16:07
timeless_mbpit shall be so16:07
* jeremiah passes timeless_mbp a helmet to make the banging a little more comfortable.16:08
SpeedEviltimeless: yeah16:08
timeless_mbpmetal or bicycle?16:08
jeremiahOne of those mulit-purpose things16:08
jeremiahYou can use it skiing or biking. :)16:08
jeremiahMUAHHAHAHAH AHHAH . . . (more evil laughter)16:09
* timeless_mbp pokes thp 16:09
timeless_mbpthp: css really isn't that hard16:09
timeless_mbpsurely you could try to diff the default theme against the nasa theme and try to improve them?16:10
timeless_mbpi mean...16:10
jeremiahThe syntax of CSS isn't hard, the way it works in various browsers is hard16:10
timeless_mbpcss in gecko for pages really isn't very hard16:10
timeless_mbpthere's typically a page specific to a ui element16:11
timeless_mbpthp: if i told you which css file to edit, would that help?16:11
timeless_mbpjeremiah: i'm going to replace "Updating {pkg} {ver}" with "{pkg} ({ver})"16:12
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timeless_mbpi think the fact that we're not add/remove-ing should make the update case clear16:13
timeless_mbpand given that pkg versions can be incredibly long, i want every single character i can get16:13
* timeless_mbp kicks git/svn versions in deb packaging16:13
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jeremiahtimeless_mbp: Sounds good~16:18
timeless_mbpok, i'll be back in a while16:18
jeremiahkarma timeless_mbp16:19
jeremiahkarma ~timeless_mbp16:19
jeremiah~karma timeless_mbp16:19
infobottimeless_mbp has karma of 116:19
jeremiah~karma jeremiah16:19
infobotjeremiah has neutral karma16:19
jeremiahGoddamn infobot16:19
jeremiahAwww. :)16:20
jeremiahI like you lcuk16:20
jeremiahKarma wars!16:20
lcukits an antiwar tho16:20
lcukjeremiah, have you ever been to a barcamp?16:20
lbtlcuk: how is/was it16:20
lcukwas really cool16:21
lcukpeople from all different backgrounds and specialties16:21
jeremiahWhat was it?16:21
lcuki spoke with a couple of your workmates16:21
jeremiahAnd is there a URL16:21
jeremiahIf it ain't on the internet, it don't exist.16:21
lcukwas in the IBM offices16:21
lcuk2 day event, started yesterday, i wish i was still there now16:22
lcukthe n900 went down a storm16:22
jeremiahI am sure16:22
lcukbest part was being able to say "nope, the iphone wont do that"16:22
lcukas i was preparing presentation using device itself16:23
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qwerty12_N810jeremiah is looking at his iPhone and wants to dock karma off you, lcuk, for that comment16:24
* jeremiah wonders how qwerty12_N810 even knows I have one.16:25
wazd_In fact I'm sure that noone here is familliar with iPhone homebrew stuff :)16:25
wazd_Who knows what is held there :)16:25
jeremiahwazd_: You mean jailbreaking?16:26
qwerty12_N810jeremiah: You told us, in #maemo! :p16:26
wazd_jeremiah: yep16:26
jeremiahqwerty12_N810: I know.16:26
lcukthis reminded me sooooo much of something im working on ;)16:26
jeremiahCydia is the bomb - apt-get for the iPhone16:26
jeremiahdebian everywhere16:26
w00tand yet, it still sucks16:27
* w00t giggles16:27
jeremiahinfobot, slap w00t.16:27
* infobot slaps w00t., keep your grubby fingers to yourself!16:27
w00toh come on.16:27
w00twe know it's true!16:27
w00thow's sunday for everyone, anyway?16:28
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jeremiahInfobot giveth, infobot taketh away.16:28
jeremiahI am having a pleasant Sunday wasting my time with you lot! :)16:28
* w00t nods16:28
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Meizirkkiinfobot, where did you go?16:28
infobotto hell and back. Saddam says "hi".16:28
w00twhat better way to spend a day ;)16:28
jeremiahAnd trying to make sure the pyside stuff is in the repos.16:28
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lbtwhen you could be packaging OBS ;)16:28
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lcuki am splitting out the calendar into standalone app today :)16:29
* w00t is staring at code and wishing it'd just fix itself16:29
lcukwhats up16:30
lcuki was trying to work out how to package on device again last night16:30
w00tjust got back to integrating libmatchbox2 into qtablet/qmantle.. painful process16:30
Stskeepslcuk: using that guys rootstrap16:30
jeremiahlcuk: But what is the advantage of packaging on the device?16:31
jeremiahIts just so much slower.16:31
lcukno its not16:31
jeremiahI know that if you do that you know exactly the dependencies.16:31
lcuki get to test accelerometer and camera and all the normal device stuff16:31
jeremiahWhich is definitely cool16:31
w00tit is a bit more convenient, less farting around16:31
qwerty12_N810lcuk: Just do it in Scratchbox, FFS. When it comes to the autobuilder, you'll find it much nicer16:31
jeremiahI think qwerty12_N810 is right.16:31
lcuki have windows :)16:32
lcukand the damned VM doesnt sit right16:32
jeremiahVirtualBox is your friend.16:32
lbtdoes vbox work on windows?16:33
lcukits a system inside a system inside a system16:33
* lbt has no windows boxes now16:33
lcukim happy building natively16:33
lbtlcuk: so?16:33
jeremiahYou asking me? I have no windows boxen16:33
lcukmy apps arent large16:33
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lcukits not slow16:33
jeremiahI don't even know what windows is.16:33
lbtyou suggested it...16:33
lcukits easy on the mind16:33
jeremiahAnd I don't know why they call Windows 7 'Karmic Koala'16:33
* lbt realises that liqbase doesn't have nested windows16:34
lbtlight dawns16:34
lcuklbt, its fully recursive :D16:34
lbtlcuk isn't recursive16:34
lbtno lisp clearly16:34
lcukbesides, i cant test liqbase on vm16:34
Corsac your mom is recursive16:34
lcukthey dont support yuv from my experience16:34
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jeremiahpyside installs on the fremantle SDK16:37
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lcukjeremiah, which repo is it in16:48
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jeremiahextras-devel fremantle16:48
jeremiahand extras-devel diablo16:49
wazd_lbt: Sun VBox works fine16:49
wazd_lbt: Pre emu uses it in fact :)16:49
jeremiahSun? What is Sun? Oh maybe you mean Oracle. :P16:49
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lbtwazd_: ta - probably a more open suggestion for windows users who want a vm mgr16:49
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wazd_lbt: well, at least it's free :D16:51
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`Macezimbra just totally pissed me off16:53
`Macei don't know what the hell happened but wow is 6.0.x broken16:53
`Maceyou would think going from a major rev to a newer one would have been more of a fix.. but zimbra seems more broken than anything else16:53
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GAN900On the subject of Sun, I saw a talk about MariaDB at FLS yesterday.17:06
GAN900Looked quite interesting.17:06
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dirk2Anybody here attended Ameet Suri's (TI) talk at maemo summit? There is some rumor that he talked about porting Maemo5 to BeagleBoard
Stskeepsit is in progress17:51
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Stskeepssome SGX issues17:51
Stskeepsupdates will be on omappedia17:51
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dirk2Stskeeps: Any web/wiki/mail pages about this?17:51
* dirk2 looks17:51
dirk2Stskeeps: ?17:52
Stskeepswe have an issue with beagle kernel not having a DSS patch that seems to be only in nokia kernel17:53
Stskeepsso nokias patched sgx module doesnt work17:53
dirk2Stskeeps: Do use Beagle open embedded kernel?17:54
dirk2Stskeeps: So a non-published (nokia-) DSS patch is missing?17:54
Stskeepsit is published but not in patch form. dss217:55
dirk2Stskeeps: Wouldn't it be easy to add it then in patch form? We could ask Beagle people17:55
Stskeepsyes, if we had the patch17:56
dirk2Stskeeps: sorry, it is puplished but we don't have it?17:56
Stskeepsdirk2, it is in the nokia code dump of their kernel. trying to track the git commit in nokia trees.17:57
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Stskeepsso we can patch beagle and zoom2 kernel src17:57
dirk2Stskeeps: Ah, ok, it has to be extracted from a complete kernel drop then (?)17:58
Stskeepsyeah, and that is what is difficult. so we try to find it in patch form.17:59
dirk2Stskeeps: ok, understood.17:59
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dirk2Stskeeps: Who are the people working on this project? Which e.g. mailing list are they using? Or is it done TI intern?18:00
Stskeepsdirk2, it is a bit of a collaborative effort. no mailing list, just talks :P18:01
Stskeepsi updated the rootfs generation personally.18:02
Stskeepsand tried to make sgx module from nokia work on oe kernel18:02
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Stskeepswhat is your interest?18:03
dirk2I tried and it is somehow outdated.18:04
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dirk2I then heard the rumor about new porting efforts and couldn't find any status18:04
zeevHi, is the release date of N900 known?18:04
Stskeepswe are at stage that it boots, sgx fails to initialize. with maemo5.0 binaries.18:05
SpeedEvilzeev: not to mortal men.18:05
dirk2Stskeeps: Maybe I could help with some testing, or at least asking questions ;)18:05
SpeedEvilThe elves may know it.18:05
zeev:) ok18:05
Stskeepsdirk2, i hope there is more news next week.18:06
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dirk2Stskeeps: Where to check for these news? Will have recent status?18:06
dirk2Stskeeps: Great! Thanks! Good luck18:06
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vasily_pupkinanybody know, how can i manually invoke maemo vkbd?18:13
suihkulokkivasily_pupkin: I don't remember exactly how, but osso-xterm has code to do that18:14
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jeremiahyuck, core dumps in sbox18:17
timelessoops, wrong window18:19
timelessisn't that normal?18:19
timeless-> jeremiah18:20
jeremiahI suppose18:20
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* timeless happens to like when make crashes18:21
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jeremiahokay, since when does doing a `apt-get remove` change the ownership of /etc/sudoers?18:27
thorbjornapt-get remove could do anything. :)18:27
timelessif there's an update-suoers call18:27
timelessmy packages have them18:27
jeremiahWhy would you call update-sudoers?18:28
timelesswho became the owner?18:28
jeremiahWell, the call failed, so I dunno18:28
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* Stskeeps wonders who made focus of text fields in microb and looks for his garlic and wooden stake18:28
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timelessi add/remove a file in /etc/sudoers.d/18:28
vasily_pupkinosso-xterm uses vte18:28
jeremiahoughtn't you do it differently?18:29
vasily_pupkinand emacs uses Stollman Dark Art18:29
timelessdifferently how?18:29
jeremiahI mean just change owner or chown18:29
vasily_pupkinno wai.. ^_^18:29
jeremiahor become root?18:29
timelesswell, afaik no one should ever do anything other than calling update-sudoers18:29
jeremiahoh really?18:29
timelessi'm not sure how that would ruin ownership18:29
jeremiahIs that maemo policy?18:30
timelessi could be wrong18:30
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jeremiahI'm not saying you are18:30
jeremiahI am just wondering what the scoop is.18:30
timelessit seemed to be The Way (tm)18:30
jeremiahI don't think I am getting these bugs from your software anyway, but from something else18:30
suihkulokkisomeone is trying to install a backdoor?18:30
jeremiahI think the mafw-dbus-* is a wee bit buggy18:30
timelesswouldn't shock me18:31
timelessi think i crashed it an hour ago :)18:31
* Stskeeps wonders if debs exist for tear for fremantle.18:31
qwerty12_N810Stskeeps: extras-devel.18:32
timelessbtw, i tried to install fmradio18:32
timelessit didn't work18:32
jeremiahStskeeps: I thought I just saw lbt say he had built some tear debs on OBS18:32
timelessdo i need black magic?18:32
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Proteousblack wizard needs food badly18:33
Stskeepsqwerty12_N810: webkit not installable according to apt-get18:33
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* timeless is eating chinese w/ chopsticks18:33
qwerty12_N810It installed here18:33
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timelesshrm, it's working here w/ 39, i failed w/ 37 on python reqs18:34
Stskeepswhy on earth doesnt apt-cache search show libwebkit..18:35
qwerty12_N810Stskeeps: non-free?18:36
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lardmanevening all18:36
vasily_pupkinanybody had success with building ruby/JIT?18:36
w00tStskeeps: as far as I know it's perfectly free18:36
lardmanhey jeremiah18:36
qwerty12_N810w00t: Scratchbox problems18:37
jeremiahI install ruby thusly: apt-get install perl18:37
w00tqwerty12_N810: hmm?18:37
jeremiah</religious war>18:37
vasily_pupkinbut cool boys from metasploit make perl=>ruby rotation18:37
jeremiahMmmm, metasploit18:38
* timeless was going to guess that as a tribute to microb they had named it libgtkkitweb18:38
vasily_pupkinand this stuff is veeeerryyyyyy sloooooooooooow18:38
timelessbut non-free is also a good gecko tribute18:38
Stskeepsw00t, non-free = no src package18:38
qwerty12_N810w00t: Bundyo, the maintainer of WebKit for Maemo, couldn't get it built under Scratchbox. The autobuilder for uploading packages into free, uses scratchbox. non-free allows direct uploads of debs (with source) so he had to upload it there18:38
timelessnon-free = builders/sbox suck18:39
* w00t sets scratchbox on fire18:39
jeremiahWe need a repo that is called scratchbox-fail18:39
timelessget in line ;)18:39
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jeremiahpffft! Mine is already just a heap of glowing coals.18:39
w00tgod it's cold today.18:40
* jeremiah pours more napalm on fire18:40
timelessoh brother18:40
timelessfmradio requires headphones?18:40
Stskeepslike on n80018:40
jeremiahno, please say that isn't so18:40
timelessis the fmradio app guy online?18:41
SpeedEvilit needs an antenna alas.18:41
timelesshis english is bad18:41
timelessso if he doesn't pong, he will be translated18:41
SpeedEvilAlmost certainly - the reception without an antenna will be very, very bad unless you're in an unusually strong sitnal area18:41
timelessand i just watched the Bones episode about translated18:41
lardmanhmm, anyone else noticed that libgdigicam isn't available in any of the repos?18:42
* timeless wonders how many people here got the reference or went to ask google18:43
lardmanat least none of the ones I've got working in sb18:43
lardmanhmm, seems to build ok, which is a good sign18:44
timelesswhat should it do?18:46
lardmanwell, building is a good thing18:46
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lardmanI'd just thought there might be a package in one of the repos, rather than build your own from git18:47
lardmanbut np18:47
timelesswhat should it do?18:48
lbtqwerty12_N810: webkit from extras was one of my test compiles in the accel/cross-gcc .... built last night on OBS18:48
lbtprolly an old version libwebkit-1.0-1_1.0-svn41137-13mer318:49
qwerty12_N810lbt: further proof that Scratchbox is an abomination :(18:49
lardmanyay, it built, /me celebrates by finding a glass of wine18:49
lcukright in front of you where it normally lives :P18:49
lcukinfact, just reach over to the cask18:49
lardmannah, that one's empty ;18:49
timelessyou don't get wine of the month?18:50
timelessor does that arrive later this week :?18:51
lbtwhine of the month is the N00 shipping date18:51
Ceron^doesnt the n900 auto-rotate work yet?18:51
Ceron^what about virtual keyboard :o18:51
Ceron^those didnt work at altparty18:51
timelessceron: very few apps do it18:52
lbtShopper does18:52
timelessa couple more will in an update18:52
lbtcourse it's not released yet18:52
timelessbrowser does internally18:52
lbtbrowser is so good it rotates twice!18:52
timelessyeah, if we wait long enough, browser could in FCS :)18:52
jeremiahCannot even stop the friggin' scratchbox!18:52
timelessjeremiah: feature18:53
lbtjeremiah: the sooner we package OBS... the sooner we kill sbox18:53
jeremiahkill Kill KILL!18:53
qwerty12_N810typedef GdkColor GdkColour; bliss....18:53
* lbt says "optify"18:53
jeremiahGreat. Now I have to rm -rf /scratchbox18:53
* timeless slaps qwerty18:53
lbtand watches jeremiah18:53
jeremiahand re-install18:53
timelessjeremiah: um18:54
* jeremiah beats scratchbox with a rake18:54
timelessdo yourself a favor18:54
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Proteoushah, the volume on the flash video player on the bbc site goes up to 11 :)18:54
timelesscreate users: sbox-arm, sbox-x8618:54
timelesschange their uid and homedir to yours18:54
timelessuse sbox-adduser18:55
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* lardman considers how much nicer Ubuntu 9.10 is than 9.4 (and 8.4 LTS)18:55
jeremiahwell, maybe18:55
timelessthen you can have multiple scratchboxes at the same time18:55
jeremiahtimeless: Yeah, I'll try that.18:55
jeremiahlardman: Do you think it is nicer? It looks nicer18:55
timelesslardman: do you have an n900:18:55
jeremiahI put it on my Acer One, but I might switch.18:56
lardmanyeah looks nicer18:56
qwerty12_N810jeremiah: :O18:56
lardmanhasn't locked up hard yet, unlike 9.418:56
achipa_irssia quickie - is there a way to (temporarily) disable the cam app from popping up on cover open ?18:56
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jeremiaheeebuntu is Switching to debian and I want to use that.18:56
lardmanachipa_irssi, I'm interested in being able to choose a different app to auto-open18:56
qwerty12_N810achipa_irssi: rm /usr/bin/camera-ui.launch...18:57
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* timeless slaps qwerty18:57
lardmannice one qwerty12_N810 :)18:57
timelessthat's a bit forceful..18:57
achipa_irssiqwerty12_N810: that would be SLIGHLTY overaggressive :)18:57
lardmandoes something call that?18:58
qwerty12_N810Technically, it would work... :p18:58
qwerty12_N810ke-recv, probably18:58
Stskeepshmm, segfault of tear18:58
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* Stskeeps wonders if his hw is broken18:58
achipa_irssithought maybe something as an an elegant 'thank you I'll take it from here' dbus msg or sorts :)18:59
uhsfSince my media player was stolen yesterday I took the decision to buy a n900 when it comes out.18:59
Stskeepswelcome in the queue18:59
lardmanachipa_irssi, may well be possible. Email the maemo-devel list, I'll be interested in the answer too18:59
achipa_irssilardman: ok19:00
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* achipa_irssi feels like a spokesperson - everybody asks him to write to the lists19:00
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timelessfrom memory, there was a way in n8x019:00
timelesscheck gconf first..19:01
qwerty12_N810There was a GConf key, somewhere; change its service name (for N8X0)19:01
timelessnow you can be a spelunker too19:01
qwerty12_N810Hmm, don't think that same GConf key has any effect for N900: it lists the VoIP app...19:02
lardmandoes the GDK_BUTTON_PRESS_MASK event mask result in a "clicked" event?19:04
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derflardman: Is your barcode code still supposed to compile for the N8x0?19:04
lardmanfor a GtkDrawingarea19:04
lardmanderf, should do, but not tried since I split it into separate machine specific files19:04
derfNo package 'libosso-abook-1.0' found19:05
lardmanyeah, I need to make some changes19:05
derfI've got osso-addressbook-1.019:05
lardmanI've put zbar back as the backend19:05
lardmanprobably need to do another push19:05
lardmanand alter some of the Makefile stuff19:05
timelessso.. does Martin Grimme irc?19:06
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lardmanderf: are you busting to try it, or can you wait till tomorrow - I'll sort out the N8x0 build stuff this evening19:06
derflardman: I can wait.19:07
derfI have no shortage of other things I should be doing.19:07
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lardmannp, will push my changes this evening, and make sure it builds for both machines19:07
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* RST38h moos at lardman and derf19:09
* timeless pokes lotto with a fork19:09
timelesswhat are you and why the spam?19:09
lardmanmooo :)19:09
* RST38h has optified ATI85, fMSX, and Speccy. What is new in this internet tube?19:09
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lcukhas anyone tried cloning fremantle to mmc19:10
Stskeepsmm, me19:11
lcukhow well did it work19:11
lcukwith the /top issue19:11
timelessfremantle shouldn't really care19:11
lardmanand thoughts on what GDK_EVENT_MASK I require to produce a "clicked" signal on a GtkDrawingArea?19:12
lcukno, but cloning must also clone the opt area19:12
timeless/opt as a symlink is an fs detail19:12
Stskeepslcuk, as expected.. rming the symlink would help19:12
Stskeepsand copying opt manually19:12
derflardman: GDK_BUTTON_PRESS_MASK19:12
lcukok, its just a few more steps but feasible. cool19:14
lcukStskeeps, i dont suppose you made notes whilst you did it ?19:16
Stskeepslcuk, have to wait for final sw to finish bootmenu19:16
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Stskeepsthen its a matter of adding an item and rsyncing over the fs19:17
achipa_irssilardman: it's not clicked, but 'button-press-event'19:17
derfRight, that too.19:18
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timelessisn't there a package that "owns" /opt?19:21
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lardmanah ok, thanks chaps19:23
derfThere's a separate event for button releases, too.19:24
timelessjeremiah: ping19:24
timelessif i have a package foo19:24
derf(with a separate event mask)19:24
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timelessthat owns a symlink /var/stupid => /tmp/stupid19:25
timelessand the use converts /var/stupid into a directory19:25
timelesswhat happens when the user updates my package to foo-1.1?19:25
crashanddietimeless, the symlink creation will fail19:26
crashanddietimeless, and the application will attempt to use the contents of the /var/stupid directory19:26
timelessthe package will safely update?19:26
crashanddieI don't know19:27
timelessthat's the interesting part :)19:27
crashanddieDon't know enough about dpkg to know if it atomically checks the execution state of every operation19:27
timelessyou could test ;)19:27
crashanddietimeless, if you want it to work19:27
* timeless is finishing dinner19:27
timelessthe package in question is base-files19:28
crashanddietimeless, you might as well just put a test, to see if the symlink already exists or directory for that matter19:28
crashanddietimeless, you're asking the question, you have the opportunity to test it yourself, so just do it19:28
timelesssomeone should figure out the answer before they do a fremantle to mmc thing19:28
crashanddietimeless, don't expect others to take care of your shit19:28
timelessnot my shit19:28
wazd_just curious, anybody got the reply from yet? :)19:28
ali1234crashanddie: 1. trying this test on base-files is extremely likely to brick the device19:28
timelesssomeone else suggested flattening19:29
ali1234crashanddie: 2. putting in a test against every file in the package to check if it is a symlink is retarded19:29
crashanddieali1234, why every file in the package?19:29
achipa_irssiwazd_: yes, there were some replies on t.m.o.19:29
timelessi'm suggesting someone should test before they go about converting19:29
ali1234crashanddie: because any file may or may not have been converted to a symlink by the users19:29
timelessthe brick state could easily appear much later19:29
ali1234therefor you'd have to put a check for every file in every package19:30
crashanddiehow about just tell people not to do that? Or at least, explain it wouldn't be supported?19:30
crashanddiejust check the main directory, and act on that. If people want to change single files, it's their problem to keep it maintained19:30
timelessconverting rootfs to mmc isn't supported?19:31
wazd_achipa_irssi: thx19:31
lcuktimeless, Stskeeps said he has done it19:31
timelessvery helpful19:31
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lcukso if its feasible and runs19:31
timelessbut we haven't shipped an updated base-files package19:31
lcukthen we can just wait19:31
timelessthe question is whether the device would fail in some way if that happened19:32
* lcuk nods19:32
lcuki was concerned for the same thing19:32
ali1234rootfs on sd should not create any extra symlinks anyway19:32
timelessjust because you can freeze state doesn't mean you can migrate safely19:32
wazd_jeez, 16:9 display in portrait mode is absolutely sick :D19:32
timelesswe're talking about replacing one symlink w/ a dir19:33
wazd_not sure if anyone in the world uses it like that :)19:33
timelessi just don't know how apt would handle that case when it updates the owning package19:33
ali1234there is no reason at all to do it19:33
timelesswazd: details?19:33
ali1234just keep the symlink...19:33
timelessali: eh?19:33
ali1234and everything will be fine19:34
ali1234timeless: you're talking about not having /opt on a different filesystem19:34
ali1234timeless: well you can keep /home/opt and keep /opt as a symlink to that, even if they're on the same fs19:34
FlyserIs it possible to "rescue" a n900 if the kernel refuses to boot?19:34
ali1234therefore no reason to get rid of the symlink19:34
ali1234nothing will change19:34
timelessi guess you could keep that symlink...19:34
Flyseror boot from µSD?19:34
timelessok :)19:34
RST38hwazd: So, you actually tried it in portrait mode? =) (moo)19:35
wazd_RST38h: yeah19:35
wazd_RST38h: It's way too tall :)19:36
timelessflyser: technically yes19:36
timelessif you have a super ceret hypothetical jig19:36
RST38hwazd: You just haven't got a large enough pdf :)19:36
timelessyou can ask the bootloader to load an arbitrary kernel19:36
Flysertimeless: by using the debug ports under the battery?19:37
timelessin practice, there are to my knowledge no public images19:37
timelessflyser: hypothetically19:37
Flyserokay ...19:37
Flyseris there a known solution for n8x0 devices?19:37
timelessthere are images of mer that can boot from mmc19:38
timelessfor n8x019:38
lcukali1234, sharing /opt between 2 different booting systems will cause problems with switching etc19:38
RST38h  <=== Oh, the Tentacled One, I know their lrd does not grant wishes like that, but YOU MAY!19:38
timelessand the flasher for all of them can enable mmc booting19:38
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RST38hhey avdvsx19:38
ali1234lcuk: i never said anything about sharing it19:38
Flysertimeless: great. thanks for the information :-)19:38
wazd_VDVsx: heya19:38
timelesssomeday mer will boot the n90019:39
timelessnot sure when19:39
VDVsxhey RST38h & wazd_ :)19:39
* lcuk waves at VDVsx 19:39
pupnikis nokia polishing up software and somehow going to mass flash biolt devices just before shipping?19:39
wazd_RST38h: I have a drool worthy present for you :D19:39
VDVsxlcuk, google is the perfect company for you, they have a tons of bacon here ;)19:40
Stskeepstimeless: runs already19:40
w00tStskeeps: i'd bloody hope so, otherwise i'm going to cry when i try dualbooting mine when(if?) i ever get it19:41
lcuki filled in dietary requirements for barcamp as "bacon"19:41
lcukbut they didn't oblige :(19:41
lcukthe food was lovely tho!19:41
lcukthats not cooked19:42
timelessless grease?19:42
lcuktake it off and put it under the grill (and post more pics whilst waiting :D)19:42
RST38hwazd: drooooooooooooooooo....ooool19:43
timelessit's presumably softer and more form fitting this way..19:43
lcukindeed it is timeless but its not exactly edible19:44
pupniki have seen a squidbra19:44
w00twhy on earth would anyone use a http accelerator for a bra19:44
timelessi presume that would be rather uncomfortable19:45
* VDVsx is in a session about multimedia/drm/codecs :)19:45
pupnikcool where what19:45
wazd_RST38h: but it's really hard to move head up and down due to large screen size19:45
pupnikbtw we dont have videos of most 2009 summit talks.  i made a couple but it would be best if we had the audio from the board19:46
pupnikmixer - the microphones19:46
pupnikim  sometimes the geek that makes sure that happens19:47
timelesswhy didn't you this time ;?19:47
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pupniki saw folks with real cameras filming19:48
timelessprops ;)19:48
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pupnikill volunteer next time19:48
timelessso, i'm still collecting string feedback..19:50
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timelesshey, do .desktop files support passing args to prograsms?19:51
infobottimeless meant: hey, do .desktop files support passing args to programs?19:51
RST38hwazd: get glasses, move the screen away =)19:52
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epa_can anyone verify what happens in their N900 when one presses with left thumb keys 'swde' and right thumb 'i'19:54
ali1234looks like zoom out19:55
lcukthe same that happens when you press keys anyway19:56
epa_ali1234: so it's in photo application?19:56
lcukyou get contacts search19:56
epa_because I get volume down19:56
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lcukahh if you are in an app19:56
lcukthat might be different19:56
epa_lcuk: yes it goes to contact search when you press 'swed'19:56
epa_but when you after that press 'i' I get volume down19:56
epa_really wierd 'shortcut'19:57
lcukpress other keys too19:57
lcukthe contacts search does multipresses19:57
lcukcontacts search doesnt bob up from the dashboard19:57
* lcuk files bug19:57
pupnikcan n810 playback vimeo?19:58
lardmanderf: thanks, saw that one, just wondered if I could get a "clicked" event, like e.g. from a button19:58
lardmanbut the button-press-event should be fine19:58
epa_also 'aqsw' + 'io' gives volume down19:59
epa_I think there might be some 'bug' in keyboard handling19:59
derflardman: No, you can't.20:00
derf"clicked" is a complex interaction.20:00
epa_I think it must be a bug since I can't find 'volume up' from anywhere in such combination20:00
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lcukepa_, multitouch keypresses! :D20:04
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uhsfmaemo doesn't feature multitouch20:05
Proteousit's a hidden feature20:05
Proteousto unlock it you have to press up up down down left right left right a b b a20:05
uhsfthat's not true20:05
Proteousbut watch out because in maemo2 that makes your ship blow up20:05
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Proteouswait, what are we talking about again?20:06
pupnikpicodrive kind of works if anyone has gumption20:07
uhsfi don't really know what multitouch features are anyway it seems so overhyped20:08
lcukmultitouch on a large format display is natural20:09
lcukon small devices its contrived20:09
derfMan, kids these days don't even know the Konami code.20:09
ProteousI know, it's sad20:09
Proteousmy jokes are all worthless on the new generation20:10
crashanddiederf, because it was released 25 years ago and only in north america20:10
* qwerty12_N810 finds it a more fun exercise remembering the GTA cheat codes, instead20:10
Proteousdamnit, now I feel old20:10
derfProteous: It's okay, you got it wrong.20:10
Proteouswhat about the doom cheat codes20:10
Proteoustoo many left rights?20:10
crashanddieProteous, that being said, it's the cheat code in half life 220:10
derfIt's just b a, not a b b a.20:11
Proteousah, mixing it up with the code for ikari warriors20:11
derfI forgive you.20:11
Proteousikari warriors extra lives code was just a b b a...20:12
Proteouswhat a bugtastic game that was20:12
RST38hIkari Warriors...yes, you can play it on the tablet20:13
Proteousthe challenge with that game (since you could have as many extra lives as you want) was to see if you could finish the game before the bugeness grew to an unplayable amount20:13
fralsiddqd idkfa ;o20:13
crashanddieecho "Get off my lawn!" > Proteous20:14
derfI always liked "gabbagabbahey".20:15
RST38hcthulhu fhtagn20:15
crashanddienext he's going to sing us the mov bx,ax song20:16
RST38hcrashanddie: ldmia r13!,{r0,r3,r5,r7,r8,r11,r15} !20:20
timeless_mbpcan someone try to trigger full screen video @ ?20:20
RST38hor even ldmiacc20:20
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Firebird:o, doesn't work20:23
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epa_are people getting "C++ compiler cannot create executables" when running ./configure in scratchbox?20:27
epa_something is not at it's rightful place or something?20:28
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derfMost likely an invalid flag passed to the compiler.20:29
derfE.g., an intel-specific flag in the arm target, or vice versa.20:29
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lcukepa_, i saw that with someone the other night20:34
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lardmanderf: ok, thanks20:36
dirk2Stskeeps: Which oe recipe you are using for Maemo beagle kernel? I want to check which patches are used by this recipe. 2.6.31? ?20:39
Stskeepsdirk2: sorry, i am in .dk and my desktop is in .pl20:39
Stskeepsi tried 2.6.28 to match with nokia kernel20:40
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uhsfi needed a n900 now so badly, the delay bugs me.20:42
dirk2Stskeeps: Hmm, uses other DSS2 patches than 2.6.31 recipe ...20:42
w00tuhsf: welcome to the club, enjoy your stay :-)20:43
timeless_mbpfwiw, there are a couple hundred spare n900s floating around20:44
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* w00t shakes fist20:45
__twhich wifi standards are supported by the n90020:45
Stskeepsdirk2, got one that contains omap_dispc_set_plane_ba0?20:45
timeless_mbpb/g ?20:45
dmj7261N900 is not exactly the perfect device for avoiding envvy20:45
__ti am going to setup a videostreaming wireless network for next saturday.20:46
dirk2Stskeeps: As file name or function name inside the patch?20:46
__tare there any videostreaming solutions suggested besides qik.20:46
Stskeepsdirk2: function20:46
timeless_mbpthe n900 has some support for WPS20:46
timeless_mbpbut i've had little luck getting it to work20:46
* dirk2 doesn't have all the patches on his disk, but looks in an other oe clone20:47
Stskeepsdirk2, thanks for helping20:48
dirk2Stskeeps: In my recipes/linux directory I have no patch which contains omap_dispc_set_plane*20:49
dirk2Stskeeps: But as mentioned, I don't have an original oe clone20:49
dirk2Stskeeps: Just an overo one, not sure what is different there20:49
dirk2Stskeeps: Is omap_dispc_set_plane_ba0() the missing function?20:50
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Stskeepsone of them20:50
Stskeepswish i had my workspace here20:50
* dirk2 scans omap-linux mailing list archive for omap_dispc_set_plane_ba0, without success20:51
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dirk2Stskeeps: Do you have somewhere a list of what is missing?20:54
dirk2Ah, and anybody with a link to the Maemo5 Nokia kernel sources?20:55
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dirk2Stskeeps: Hmm, what's the best one to look at? The diff.gz    ?20:58
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wazd_will you guys be upset if I'll finish all my current stuff and quit maemo developing?20:58
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Stskeepswazd_: :( definately. but food first, oss later21:00
b-man17can anyone help me with this?:
lbtwazd_: you bored? Fancy making a logo for "Linux Raid" ?  better than this :
wazd_Stskeeps: well, that's not so much bout food21:00
wazd_Stskeeps: it's about fun21:00
dirk2Stskeeps: Have you tried to apply Beagle patches to stuff from ?21:00
Stskeepswazd_: yeah.. that is always a factor21:01
wazd_Stskeeps: and btw, I didn't mean Mer :)21:01
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Stskeepswazd_: i sincerely believe you should be paid for your good work21:02
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Stskeepsif a hobby isnt fun, you should atleast be ;p21:03
Stskeepsdirk2: i think that func is just exporting _dispc_set_plane_ba0 as a symbol21:03
Stskeepslemme see21:03
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wazd_Stskeeps: well, it was fun when I was developing for M421:04
wazd_Stskeeps: and now it looks more like pain in the ass for me, so I'm a bit tired21:04
Stskeepsbut with no n900 it isnt cos you have to wait to see the effect?21:04
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dirk2Stskeeps: I mean take the Nokia kernel and make it work with (some additional?) patches on Beagle, and not taking the Beagle kernel and trying to make it Nokia compatible. That is, ignoring the kernel build by OE for Beagle.21:05
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Stskeepsdirk2: didnt try the opposite yet, no21:07
Stskeepsbut that might be worth it21:07
dirk2Stskeeps: This would mean: Nokia kernel + patches (not taking the dss patches, as they should be in that kernel already)21:07
Stskeepsworth a try maybe21:07
Stskeepsi think i tried but i am not a good kernel hacker :P21:08
dirk2Stskeeps: and then taking the Beagle defconfig and merging the Nokia display config into it21:08
Stskeepsthe issue is solving this issue for beagle, zoom2 etc21:09
wazd_lbt: is that a real logo? :D21:10
lbtstunning isn't it !21:10
lbtI'm so proud of that21:11
Stskeepswazd_: soon enough you can help with m5 with your n8x0 :P21:11
lbtminutes of hard slog!21:11
wazd_lbt: yeah, I'm actually trying to locte my ejected brain right now :D21:12
Stskeepsdirk2, could you try that direction maybe? could be good progress21:12
lbtlook, the concept is sound!21:12
Stskeepsjust a building kernel and seeing what breaks21:13
wazd_Stskeeps: I'd rather prefer to focus on Mer21:13
Stskeepswazd_: :nod:21:13
w00twho wouldn't21:13
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* Stskeeps passes wazd_ a cookie21:14
w00twhere's mine?21:14
* wazd_ nom-nom-noms21:14
* lbt fixes Mer:Devel21:14
w00t../lib/ undefined symbol: _ZTVN7qtablet17FuckingToolButtonE21:14
Stskeepswazd_: meet w00t, he is writing a qtablet based wm mimicing fremantle desktop21:14
* w00t wonders what he broke21:14
lbtglib2.0 just built21:14
Stskeepslbt, that was quick21:14
lbtfor armv5el21:14
CorsacStskeeps: did you see my question on #mer about the 0.17testing? :)21:15
StskeepsCorsac: nop21:15
wazd_Stskeeps: w00t: oh, nice job :) I was skeptical bout it though, don't remember why exactly :)21:15
w00twazd_: i'm still sceptical about it, and i'm writing it ;)21:16
w00tbut we'll see21:16
w00tit might work out21:16
Stskeepswazd_: we have a bunch of guys interested in low res hildon/mer.. something you can make concepts on? android refugees21:16
Stskeeps320x480 and 640x48021:17
wazd_Stskeeps: tamagochi style :)21:17
w00tthat is rather low res21:17
Stskeepswazd_: yeah21:17
Stskeepsbut possible21:18
w00twrong w21:18
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Stskeepswazd_: and hildon on e-ink touch devices21:18
wazd_Stskeeps: well, my UI concepts was optimized for 640x480 (Loox)21:18
Stskeepswazd, so you have the chance to be ui hero of new devices ;)21:20
wazd_Stskeeps: heh21:20
Stskeeps320x480 is just small though..21:21
wazd_Stskeeps: nobody takes me serious so I'm not so sure bout that path of my destiny :D21:21
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wazd_Stskeeps: 320x240 is small :)21:21
Stskeepswazd_: you just lack a cape and latex suit, like superheroes21:22
wazd_Stskeeps: who told you that I don't have latex suit? :D21:22
Stskeepswazd_: after seeing you on fb i shouldnt have questioned you :P21:23
Stskeepswazd_: adding #mer to autojoin is a good start :)21:24
Stskeepsa lot of discussions where in the middle i realize you are missing21:24
* w00t agrees21:24
lcuk320*240 isnt small21:25
lcukit would run really well21:25
* lcuk can see a 320*240 watch concept working well :)21:27
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Stskeepsmer on touchscreen watch21:28
* timeless_mbp ponders21:29
lcukyeah if oyu can get your ui down it would work21:29
timeless_mbpanyone here familiar w/ internet radio?21:29
timeless_mbplike, what format does the media player support? :)21:29
timeless_mbpand can someone suggest a url to a supported station which isn't included in the default list?21:29
lcukStskeeps, bluetooth to your phone but have it as a remote display21:29
lcukrun on a low power arm21:29
lcuk:D heh21:29
lcukno need for heavy stuff21:30
Stskeepslcuk, maemo sideshow21:30
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lcukhaving said that, wazd ive got a lighter here.  im still waiting for the build instructions to get mer running on it21:30
bmidgleySpeedEvil... fwiw, my homebrew access point works after switching from an rt73pci to ath5k card21:31
bmidgleyhttps is very responsive now21:31
Stskeepsits what you smoke with it that gives the mer experience21:31
lcukStskeeps, i am comfortable thinking in loq resolution, remember liq* stuff natively "just works" at whatever, and right now on my screen there are many things showing at around 128*12821:31
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SpeedEvilbmidgley dd21:33
* timeless_mbp sighs21:35
* timeless_mbp posts a bug in something21:35
* timeless_mbp wonders why no one complained21:35
lcukwhich bug?21:36
* timeless_mbp cries21:36
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timeless_mbpmy translation has a word or three missing21:36
lcuki posted another bug!21:36
timeless_mbpin a message that i'm sure was too long for anyone to read21:36
lcuk :D21:37
lcukwhether or not it was a bug, i will just post things now as i spot them, i remembered my login finally21:38
lcukthere was a talk yesterday at barcamp about perfect bug reporting and monitoring and stuff21:38
SpeedEvilWell - perfect bug reporting will never be achieved.21:39
* lcuk will find its title and see if i can find some info21:39
lcukbut getting the best possible21:39
SpeedEvilbecause a perfect bug report always comes with a patch.21:39
lcukthat implies the build system is on the device for the end user to rebuild and test themselves21:39
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lcukbut on the whole in maemo at least that doesnt happen21:40
lcuktho i keep wanting the live designer to be in liqbase21:40
wazdlcuk: lighter is for newbies, I have installed Mer on a box of matches :D21:42
lcuko_O natural21:42
SpeedEvilWe need to port this to arm lcuk
lirihey, after installing the n810 over the air software updates it overwrites some boot stuff and I'm losing the bootloader (as my OS is cloned to the internal flash and that's what I'm using)21:42
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lcukSpeedEvil, :) amazing!21:43
lcuki wonder how fast tcc would be on maemo21:43
liriI remember having to deal with this before (in a previous update) but I don't remember what was it21:43
lcukrealtime c compilation for liq* would be cool21:43
lcuksystem detects source files changed, produces new objects and links them and reinserts live21:43
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vasily_pupkinoh shi21:44
lcukwazd, its feasible to use the lighter as a fuelcell, with matches, you would need a mini furnace or you would burn the machine every boot21:44
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ali1234"compile and run a typical Linux kernel in less than 15 seconds on a 2.4 GHz Pentium 4" i call bullshit21:48
johnxI call "who cares"21:48
lcukali1234, tinycc is 10x faster21:48
ali1234i have a 2.8ghz pentium 4 and it takes half an hour to compile an x86 kernel21:48
lcukhi johnx21:48
johnxhey lcuk21:48
johnxanyways, you can compile it pretty fast if you have the source in a ramfs and use ccache21:48
ali1234lcuk: it would need to be 120x faster to get anywhere enar that21:49
lcukjohnx, someone posted a response to me pining for dynamic realtime recompilation of code21:49
* qwerty12_N810 waves at johnx 21:49
lcukali1234, wouldnt know, and which version/featureset of the kernel are you meaning21:49
ali1234this machine can't even link a kernel in 15 seconds21:49
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johnxhey qwerty12_N81021:49
ali1234and using ccache? well, if i start out with a binary kernel, then my compiler can compile it in 0 seconds21:50
lcukthe easiest is to simply download it and try it21:50
ali1234(my compiler is cat)21:50
pupnikheh vmware sdk is sloow on p3 @ 850mhz21:50
lcukits small21:50
lcukISO image demonstation: tccboot.iso (5.9 MB).21:50
lcukpupnik, vmware is slow on supercomputers21:50
SpeedEvilali1234: it's not linking at all21:52
SpeedEvilali1234: it compiles to RAM21:52
lcukbtw, fabrice bellard is the guy that did tinygl and other optimized things21:52
SpeedEvillcuk: ffmpeg too21:52
* lcuk nods21:52
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lcukhe has shown he knows what hes on about21:53
lcukand if he says 15seconds for a kernel ill choose to believe him lol21:53
lcukSpeedEvil, qemu too21:54
SpeedEvillcuk: he's only involved - I don't think he started that21:54
pupnikoh dear, sdk says ALERT! /dev/disk/by-uuid/3d18734-blah does not exist.  dropping to a shell!21:55
lcukCopyright © 2005-2008 Fabrice Bellard. All rights reserved.21:55
lcukQEMU is a trademark of Fabrice Bellard.21:55
SpeedEvillcuk: oh21:55
pupnik(initramfs) init 321:55
pupnik/bin/sh: init: not found21:56
ali1234lcuk: i agree, if it was anyone else i wouldn't believe it21:56
SpeedEvilpupnik: This is why you have a little rescue tools partition on ramdisk21:56
ali1234but i still have to see it21:56
lcukgrab the iso and let us know21:56
Stskeepspupnik: what on earth are you trying to do21:57
ali1234i guess it could just be the case that gcc is bloated and slow21:57
SpeedEvilali1234: and does lots of optimisations.21:57
ali1234SpeedEvil: yet the end result is still slower than just about any other compiler...21:58
lcukali1234, distinguished and flexible21:58
johnxso, anyone with an n900: have you run into a problem where the "second level" (more) apps screen doesn't scroll any more?21:58
lcukali1234, theres no other compiler that can work across the board and build as many things as gcc21:59
lcuk(i believe)21:59
johnxit happened right after I installed bounce, and I still have plenty of space on all partitions21:59
pupnikbooting sdk Stskeeps :)  somehow vmware player is munged21:59
lcukits the fractint of the compiler world21:59
pupnikneed to put it on faster machine anyway21:59
pupniklol @ lcuk21:59
lcukstone soup group would be proud21:59
vasily_pupkinyeah, gcc is bullshit21:59
pupnikjohnx: yes many people21:59
vasily_pupkinbut it is all that we have22:00
qwerty12_N810johnx: yep, quite a few of us have come across that. quick "fix": killall hildon-desktop22:00
pupnikjohnx: i was trying to find what caused it - is there a bugreport?22:00
lcukqwerty12_N810, non technical user fix tho is just reboot22:00
lcukisnt it?22:00
* lcuk is thinking about having to explain this to worried people if it ever happens at production22:01
johnxpupnik, not that I found with a quick search22:01
qwerty12_N810lcuk: Sure, but why reboot? :)22:01
lcukkillall is root isnt it22:01
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qwerty12_N810Nah, it works as user; hildon-desktop gets respawned22:01
lcukto cure the problem, open the "hildon" map in q3, and frag the desktop combatants22:02
pupnikif this is not on and i file one, can i get help if i screw up the entry?22:02
Corsaczombies still respawn22:02
pupnikor can someone with experience do it22:02
lcukpupnik, if its wrong it will be changed22:03
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lcukjust be clear and concise in what you describe22:03
lcukso people will understand22:03
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ali1234about none scrolling menus, just turning it off and turning it on again works22:03
ali1234and that's pretty easy to do even if not optimal22:04
ali1234so that 15 second kernel compile has been running for three minutes now22:04
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qwerty12_N810ali1234: You missed the little disclaimer: *15 seconds for everybody except ali123422:05
pupnik  is this useful?22:06
ali1234finished in just over 4 moniytes22:06
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ali1234doesn't even contain a o or a y22:06
* VDVsx is acquiring tactics for tmo in the "Advanced Trolling + Best Practices" session :P22:08
johnxVDVsx, I'm up against the other t-mo :)22:08
timeless_mbppupnik: so...22:08
timeless_mbpthere's a bug where you can get the main menu stuck22:08
lcuktimeless, relating to your scrollbar thing22:08
timeless_mbpand have the More menu scroll over the main menu22:09
lcukim searching for scroll related bugs to see if others have reported22:09
timeless_mbplcuk: well22:09
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timeless_mbpwe've filed it for browser, camera, and profiles22:09
timeless_mbpthat's a pretty good start22:09
lcukyeah and theres this one22:10
timeless_mbpi'm all in favor of death by a thousand papercuts22:10
lcukand andre knows they are there22:10
lcukso when he sees them he will tie em together somehow22:10
timeless_mbphildon-widgets is open source, right?22:11
pupnikBug#:    5787 added22:11
timeless_mbpcan someone please just fix it?22:11
* lcuk grrrrs @ pan/select hidden ui22:11
lcukwhich bit timeless ?22:11
timeless_mbpthe one we're talking about22:11
timeless_mbpwhere showing a widget doesn't result in the scrollbars painting22:11
lcukahh the entire full system scrollbars thing22:11
timeless_mbpinstead you can only see them when the widget is first created/overflowed22:11
timeless_mbpi'm not necessarily asking for them to always be visible22:12
timeless_mbpalthough, if you want to fix something else22:12
lcuki did this lot in liqbase and found just a transparent solid always available one works22:12
timeless_mbpmaking it be translucent (like the browser content area) instead of opaque when they're "hidden" would be great too22:12
* lcuk nods22:12
timeless_mbpanyway, i'll send you 50 EUR today via paypal if you fix it in a package i can install22:13
GeneralAntillesGoddamn there's a lot of highlights on here.22:13
lcukcant do base gtk package replacement can you?22:13
timeless_mbpyou can ask around, i really do pay22:13
timeless_mbpoh, i can do anything :)22:13
lcuki knowe you can22:13
lcukbut a normal package cant22:13
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lcukand fixing it for you is selfish22:13
timeless_mbpwe'll package a replaces/diverges or something22:14
lcukwell if a patch can be made22:14
lcukit would be better to put it into bug22:14
timeless_mbpthat too22:14
lcukand get it included by default surely22:14
timeless_mbpbut i want people to use it22:14
timeless_mbpgetting it included by default involves22:14
lcukhitting the gtk guys on the head quickly22:14
johnxGeneralAntilles, mornin' (hiltes)22:14
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: how did the FLS go then?22:14
GeneralAntillesAnything worth catching up on the scrollback for?22:15
GeneralAntillesThat's really a fun show.22:15
GeneralAntillesLOTS of interest in the N90022:15
timeless_mbpit's not the gtk guy's fault22:15
timeless_mbphe's following orders22:15
GeneralAntillesSaw a half-dozen Freerunners22:15
* lcuk nods22:15
GeneralAntillesLots of 770 owners with them in drawers. :(22:15
GeneralAntillesjohnx, I think I converted a bunch of Android people.22:16
timeless_mbppupnik: you bricked your n900?22:16
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johnxI think I accidentally converted a totally uninterested palm pre user22:17
johnx"you just slide the thing and it opens the camera! wow!"22:17
johnx"where do I tap to make it take a photo?" "there's a real shutter button" "wow!"22:17
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lcukjohnx, i head similar things22:17
timeless_mbppupnik: how bricked, and do you want to try to do something about it?22:17
lcuk"youre giving your presentation from the phone?"22:18
lcukeven better22:18
lcukgood job you are the translation specialist22:18
pupnikhave a lot to do this week timeless_mbp - but i'd like to get-in some bugreporting too22:18
lcukand why im a coder :D22:18
GeneralAntillesThe whole "x and real desktop toolkits" thing really carried weight with the Android hackers.22:18
crashanddieJaffa, ping22:18
lcukGeneralAntilles, i offered android people something - come to n900 and bring your framework22:19
GeneralAntillesHad one of those weird "Reality, meet Internet." moments with a friend of pupnik's.22:19
* VDVsx -> best troll tool - :D22:19
johnxyeah. the iphone users seem strangely happy with having to quit all applications to be logged into IM...22:19
johnxfor some I'm sure it's because they don't care, but for some it seems like this ascetic way of life ...22:20
* GeneralAntilles did a bad job of noting names.22:20
lcuktimeless, you evil witch22:21
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: consider blogging experiences22:22
johnxccooke, allo22:23
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, will do.22:24
GeneralAntillesThough I neglected taking any pictures.22:24
GeneralAntillesMostly because I didn't want to advertise having an N900 there. ;)22:25
* GeneralAntilles needs a blag, actually.22:25
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qwerty12_N810GeneralAntilles: You should've invited freejazz to the event22:25
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N810, I'm always down for a fight. :P22:26
qwerty12_N810Hehe :p22:26
VDVsxGeneralAntilles, what's the problem about advertise the n900 ? :P22:26
Stskeepsat a horde of linux users, he would be at risk of it being overdrooled22:27
* VDVsx is doing it all the time this weekend, because almost anyone knows what is maemo :(22:27
GeneralAntillesVDVsx, didn't really want to see "Nokia demos N900 prototype at Florida Linux Show!" on Engadget.22:27
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VDVsxGeneralAntilles, ah ok ;)22:27
GeneralAntillesI actually had it on the table in front of me for most of the show.22:28
VDVsxStskeeps, I'm with a "horde of linux" dev's :)22:28
GeneralAntillesIt was interesting to see some people eye it.22:28
GeneralAntillesA couple of people would sort of drift off during the conversation as their eyes locked on.22:29
GeneralAntillesI suspect that may be vaguely similar to what many women experience. *g*22:29
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* qwerty12_N810 is still not sure why Nokia decided to make the N900's keyboard lights go horny when in RD-Mode :\22:31
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RST38hqwerty: easy22:34
RST38hqwerty: they needed some indicators of device activity when it is locked22:34
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, ping?22:34
timeless_mbpgan: lol22:34
RST38hqwerty: the kbd LEDs are normally off when the device is locked22:34
timeless_mbpqwerty12_N810: the lights let you see if power saving is working properly22:34
RST38hqwerty: So, it is logical to reuse these LEDs for the sleep status22:34
timeless_mbpwhich is actually very important22:35
qwerty12_N810Good point. I'm just gonna have to deal with it all night, now :\22:35
timeless_mbpyou could disable rd-mode22:36
timeless_mbpwhy is it on?22:36
* timeless_mbp never uses it22:36
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qwerty12_N810Playing with the operator name plugin and I managed to make hildon-desktop segfault a few times, so I need to keep "no-lifeguard-reset" on22:36
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N810, hey, when you start screwing with shit expect things to become less than convenient. :D22:37
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, pong22:37
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, decide on a Mac yet? :P22:37
crashanddiewill see after the US22:37
qwerty12_N810GeneralAntilles: But I could use my N800 and N810 quite normally in RD-Mode :p22:38
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, I'll probably go for the iMac 27" i722:38
qwerty12_N810No weird lights there...22:38
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, that's what I'd recommend.22:38
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, and get a 11 or 12" hackintosh22:38
GeneralAntillesJust 'cause the 4-core Mac Pros have rather . . . large margins right now.22:38
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, Mini 10v, probably.22:38
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, yeah, will see when I need one22:39
timeless_mbpiirc the lights are controllable by writing over some bit in /proc22:39
GeneralAntillesWell supported22:39
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crashanddiewell, no support, it just works :P22:39
GeneralAntillesNetbook Installer:
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, I can't get the apple financing though here in the UK22:40
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, isn't it cheaper to go with your bank and/or credit card company?22:40
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, so I'll just get a new CC and pay it off in 3 months no interest or something22:40
qwerty12_N810timeless_mbp: You're awesome. Looked through /sbin/preinit and saw the correct line. Thanks!22:40
johnxthe 10v works amazingly with ubuntu as well22:41
crashanddiejohnx, this is an apple discussion, please don't pollute it with fake unices22:41
johnxjust saying it's a good hardware choice even if you realize you're using the wrong OS on it :>22:42
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, I could probably pay it off in one month looking at the state of my bank account, but that would mean no new place to live, and actually, weird is it may sound here, a new place to live is actual a higher priority than a new computer :P22:42
crashanddiejohnx, there is no "wrong OS222:42
crashanddieinteresting typo22:42
GeneralAntillesjohnx, hehe.22:42
crashanddie"wrong OS"22:43
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, psh, new computer is always more important. :P22:43
crashanddieGeneralAntilles, not when you have my landlord it ain;t22:43
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crashanddieok, imout22:43
johnxcrashanddie, hurd22:43
crashanddieo/ lardman22:43
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johnx'later crashanddie22:43
crashanddiejohnx, hurd what?22:44
crashanddiedidn't hear anything22:44
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GeneralAntillesI got ambushed by a man with a camera and a microphone at the show.22:44
johnxcrashanddie, did he smack you with a tripod?22:44
infobotjohnx meant: GeneralAntilles, did he smack you with a tripod?22:44
GeneralAntillesThen while I was giving the little Mer/ spiel there was some weird looking Asian dude standing there staring intently at me.22:44
johnx<- moar coffee22:45
crashanddieanyway, off for biking, ++22:45
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johnxhave fun22:45
crashanddiebtw, did the time change in the US?22:45
johnxnot yet I think22:45
crashanddieoh ffs22:45
crashanddieworst week to fly to the US: when hours change in Europe, but not in the US22:46
VDVsxcrashanddie, nop, will change around Halloween afaik (end of the month)22:46
crashanddieVDVsx, thanks22:46
GeneralAntilles"This site has not bee tested for compatibility with the browser you are using ("omniweb"). It generally should still work, but you may encounter problems. For full compatibility, please consider installing Firefox"22:46
crashanddieanyway, bb22:46
GeneralAntillesThis on the video guy's site22:46
GeneralAntillesHe gave me a 5 minute lecture on why I should be using ogg theora22:46
GeneralAntillesAfter I asked him if he was going to put it on YouTube.22:47
pupnikcan you summarize?22:47
johnxGeneralAntilles, wait, the slashdot roblimo?22:47
GeneralAntillesRob Miller?22:48
johnxdurrr, dunno?22:48
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Stskeepsdidnt you run into slashdot guys too, johnx?22:48
johnxyeah, and soon after that /. started working better on webkit browsers :>22:49
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GeneralAntillesHe came back around later sans-camera and seemed pretty interested in Mer.22:50
GeneralAntillesClient restart, still no scrollback limited implemented. . . .22:50
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GeneralAntillesOh, and:22:51
* GeneralAntilles shoots lbt out of a cannon.22:51
* lcuk quickly sets up a net to catch lbt22:51
* w00t claps22:51
lcukmer would not build properly if it wasnt for his diligence22:51
* lbt opens his N900 keyboard and discover something remarkable22:52
timeless_mbplights out?22:52
lcukbacon grill working and nicely warming keyboard?22:52
lbtvery aerodynamic these things22:52
* lbt soars22:52
lcukthey tile well too22:52
fiferboyx-fade: ping?22:52
lcukespecially with the keyboard out22:52
lbtGeneralAntilles: ?? more CamelCase ??22:53
* lbt notes the irony in GeneralAntilles' nick22:53
GeneralAntilleslbt, just revenge for scrollback. :P22:53
* lbt has about 10 lines of memory22:54
lbtbut believes he deserves it ;)22:54
lcukwhos used etherpad22:56
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lardmanbelated hi crashanddie22:59
lardmanrubbish connection23:00
anidelmy n900 was stuck in portrait mode.. wanna see screenshots of the desktop and task switcher in portrait mode? :)23:00
qwerty12_N810anidel: Next on Engadget: "Aha! The N900 does support portrait mode!"...23:01
lcukyeah anidel23:02
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GeneralAntillesHaha, right, Stskeeps we got the N800 stuck in portrait mode twice.23:05
GeneralAntillesIt was rotated with adv backlight and we couldn't get it back out because the applet was off screen.23:06
Stskeepsin 0.16?23:06
* timeless_mbp sighs23:07
timeless_mbpGeneralAntilles: youch23:07
timeless_mbpGeneralAntilles: you need a desktop applet at the top left corner :)23:07
GeneralAntillesYeah, 0.1623:08
johnxanyone ever had an sd card actually just come apart?23:12
pupnik__hmm 32GB microsd not in stores here23:13
SpeedEviljohnx: only with a good excuse.23:13
SpeedEvil(I was hitting it with a chisel at the time)23:13
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johnxit was actually in one of those stupid little plastic cases, in my backpack23:14
johnxbut I guess it got pressure applied on the wrong axis23:14
epa_anyone seen description on what input3 gives out?23:14
lcukwhat is the context23:14
epa_it seems to give 16 bytes23:15
lcuk16 bytes from where23:15
johnxlcuk, another dimension23:15
epa_Nokia-N900-41-10:/dev/input# /root/hexdump < event323:15
lcukaccording to google its acceleromet or wacom23:17
lcukor synaptics thingy23:17
epa_it is touchscreen23:17
epa_not accel23:17
epa_just trying to figure out what the bytes mean23:17
johnxlcuk, input3 is arbitrary23:17
johnxit'll be different on different systems23:18
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lcukits touchscreen data23:18
lcukcat it23:18
lcukthen it will sit idle23:18
epa_johnx: on N900 it seems to be touchscreen (at least at the moment)23:18
lcuktouch the screen and ti will flow23:18
epa_I'm hexdumping it and would like to know what the bytes are23:18
lcukinteresting all the same :)23:19
lcuksince thats global23:19
* lcuk makes sketches out of it23:19
lcukepa_, it really cant be that tricky to decode23:20
epa_probably aint23:21
epa_was just thinnking f someone did it already23:21
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epa_first 2 bytes seem to be some sort of timestamp23:22
lcuki think /dev/input/ts is mapped to same23:22
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epa_like 0035fc0 b427 4ae4 32ea 0004 0003 0018 00a8 000023:25
Stskeepsepa, evdev is standardized afaik23:25
Stskeepsthere is a struct def for it23:26
epa_Stskeeps: excellent. I'll have a look at evdev sources23:26
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lcuk11 upgraded, 9 newly installed, 302 to remove and 111 not upgraded.23:29
lcukNeed to get 4836kB of archives.23:29
lcukAfter this operation, 129MB disk space will be freed.23:29
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lcuki think i should decline that option23:30
qwerty12_N810Declining is for the weak23:30
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pupnik__does anybody have a graph of phone units sold against their price?23:33
johnxlcuk, tablet or desktop?23:33
pupnik__i am curious what pricepoint maemo needs to hit to become mainstream23:33
lcukjohnx, tablet23:34
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SpeedEvilpupnik: ebay!23:34
johnxpupnik, here's the pricepoint: subsidized23:34
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pupnik"According to a latest survey conducted by the United Nations, sixty percent of people in the world are now using mobile phones, at the subscription rate of 4.1 billion per year."23:38
johnxand imagine all of them being a little linux computer :D23:39
pupniki'm imagining 10%23:39
pupnikgovt regulations have basically split the US from rest of world mobile-wise23:40
johnxpupnik, nah. the US is coming around23:41
johnxverizon and sprint will be on GSM by the time 4G is rolling out23:41
johnxthe frequencies will still be stupid, but that's a lot less of an issue than CDMA vs GSM23:42
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lcukqwerty12_N810, "skynet" on your mobile :P23:44
lcukwhich is your normal provider23:44
lcuki can see the similarities23:44
qwerty12_N810I mean T-Mobile UK, not T-Mobile US...23:45
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pupnikwow 1.086 euros per GBP.  cheap shopping in uk atm.23:46
code177I tell you what23:47
code177(also, hi everyone)23:47
lcukhi code16623:47
code177actually nevermind23:47
code177i had a fever all weekend23:47
code177it's sucked23:47
code177BUT get this23:47
code177(sorry to interject in your conversation)23:47
code177(also i'm british, bet you guys didnt know that)23:48
code177i had a dream whilst i was feverish and in the dream i figured out how to use threads in python23:48
code177and then I tried it when I woke up, and it worked!23:48
lcuktracy says i code in my sleep too23:48
qwerty12_N810code177: Haha, BBC had an article on experiences like that23:49
code177it's weird23:49
code177I wonder how long my brain had been trying to figure that one out23:49
code177like 3 or 4 days23:49
lcuksleep time is when we have a chance to digest and organise the input of the day23:49
lcukand when its boiled down sometimes it makes sense23:49
lcukhehe code177 some things take much longer than that to come out23:49
lcukit all depends how long your stack it23:50
code177i guess so yeah23:50
code177ok, also I have a question for you guys23:50
lcuksorry, we closed 5 minutes ago23:50
code177not a coding question, incidentally, a UI concept question23:50
lcukwhilst you were gasbagging23:50
code177one where you get to be imaginative and stuff23:50
lcukhes typing a long thing23:51
code177I've been racking my brains over the best way to display the wallpaper window (when you select a wallpaper thumb, obvs it goes to the wallpaper window), and it's become a bit more complex than I would have thought23:51
code177at the moment i've got it so it's got the wallpaper title as the window title, which is great, and then a toolbar which has icons for about, rate, and save23:52
code177and then I was thinking mayb putting the wallpaper in the middle.23:52
code177what about wallpapers with more than 1 desktop?23:52
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code177i was thinking i could do thumbs again, and then have them go fullscreen when you tap them23:53
code177but then what if you have only one or two desktops23:53
code177then you have all this blank empty space23:53
code177you could scale them to fit, but then i'd need to output more wallpaper images because you cant just scale them down, loading up 4 fullsize wallpapers to scale into thumbnails is stupid23:53
lcukcode177, you havent seen the tiling algorythm in liqbase :)23:53
lcuki dont know how to access it, but every image stored on the machine is eaten by tracker23:54
code177lcuk: show me how to use liqbase in python and we'll talk :P23:54
lcukand has a thumbnail generated23:54
lcukmaybe multiple actually23:54
code177generating the thumbnails isn't the hard bit, it's dealing with the load times23:54
lcukhence use existing thumbnails23:54
code177at the moment i have to run a "Getting Thumbnails" progress bar to cache the thumbnails for a category23:55
code177because gtk doesnt support inline loading23:55
lcuki know how slow this whole process is23:55
code177so you have to get them all first T_T23:55
code177it works well though23:55
lcukeven a threaded process is sluggish23:55
code177well fortunately you only have to do it once per new thumbnail23:56
code177cause im caching them23:56
code177but still23:56
code177means the first time you hit landscapes and skies it takes like23:56
lcukif you are using gtk23:57
lcukseriously look at tracker23:57
lcukit has this functionality built in and indexes itself23:57
code177like 15 seconds23:57
lcukand builds thumbs23:57
lcukif it has the api it will be benficial23:57
lcukfollow that23:58
lcukit might be that tracker pushes to thumbaniler which sounds reasonable actually23:58
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lcukthats the explanation i read about it i think23:59

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