IRC log of #maemo for Tuesday, 2009-10-20

luke-jrtimeless_mbp: I'd be glad to test PIM for you ;p00:00
Ceron^does anyone know if google is actually makinga a maemo compatible version :o00:00
Ceron^of there gmaps software00:00
Ceron^or google earth00:00
luke-jrwhy would they?00:00
luke-jrthey compete with Maemo00:01
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mgedminwtf? ping is perfect, yet ssh keeps dropping.  iwconfig says power management is off. wtf?00:01
ali1234same reason they made one for windows mobile?00:01
SpeedEvilmgedmin: is your IP changing?00:01
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* crashanddie killed the audio out on his laptop :(00:03
crashanddieso now I'm wondering if I should get an iMac or an external sound card00:04
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lcuklive in silence00:05
crashanddieno can do00:05
* JamieBennett loves my iMac :P00:05
crashanddieJamieBennett, third person fail00:05
JamieBennett:P There is more that one of me in here00:05
crashanddiemy still doesn't make sense00:06
lcuktake your damn pills00:06
JamieBennettthan00:06
* lbt wonders if people buy iMacs as socially acceptable ways to demonstrate submissive behaviour....00:06
lbtkinda like wearing shackles in public.... but white00:06
JamieBennettlbt: no a way to edit video acceptably00:06
crashanddielbt, nope, we just buy the suckers cuz they're cool, work well, and look pretty00:06
lcukbitesized chunks are better than a bit massive all in one presentation arent they00:06
lbtavidemux00:07
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crashanddiewould it be possible to export my laptop sound to the n810/n900?00:07
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lbtpulseaudio?00:07
kynkycrashanddie, yep00:07
lcukcrashanddie, if you can find out how it would be cool00:07
JamieBennetttalking of video, the guy who emailed me about last years coverage, man, this years by a 'professional company' is ...00:07
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SpeedEvilcrashanddie: broken screen laptop on ebay, swap00:08
crashanddieI did it once00:08
JamieBennett(the summit)00:08
crashanddieSpeedEvil, it's the sound, not the screen00:08
lcukwhats broke00:08
lbtis the video up?00:08
lcukis it just crackly00:08
lcukor totally gone00:08
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: yes, and if you swap the screen over, ...00:08
crashanddieSpeedEvil, and if I swap the screen over, I still have no sound00:08
* SpeedEvil sighs.00:08
crashanddiescreen doesn't produce sound, IIRC00:08
ali1234crashanddie: if you swapped the screen over you'd have a broken screen *and* no sound00:09
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: ebay for a laptop with a broken screen, but the same model.00:09
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: Swap screens over.00:09
crashanddieali1234, aaaah, makes sense now00:09
ali1234and a working screen, and a laptop with working screen and no sound00:09
kynkyif you drop screen from height, it can make sound00:09
lcukcrashanddie, whats actually happened to sound00:09
crashanddieSpeedEvil, it's just a sound connector, and you want me to replace the whole box?00:09
crashanddieSpeedEvil, talk about recycling00:09
ali1234i mean... well you get it00:09
lcukand if its totally off, how do you know its not just software00:09
SpeedEvilkynky: unless you have the visual bell option on.00:09
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kynkylol00:09
SpeedEvilOr just resolder the phone connector00:09
crashanddielcuk, opened up the laptop earlier00:09
SpeedEvil(If it's that)00:10
lcukyeah i open mine up normally too00:10
crashanddielcuk, this morning, in a hurry, long cables, clumsy feet00:10
lcukcant use it without it open00:10
lcukahh you dropped it00:10
crashanddieyanked, green thingy is split in half (inside the laptop)00:10
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: can you solder?00:10
crashanddieSpeedEvil, electronics degree ;)00:10
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: can you solder?00:10
ali1234green thingy?00:10
ali1234i don't think they sell those at RS00:11
crashanddieali1234, output jack00:11
* SpeedEvil bemoans the quality of practical work in electronic degrees.00:11
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: there are relatively few pinouts and sizes for headphone jacks00:11
crashanddieSpeedEvil, stop thinking you're a godsend to humanity, yes, some people have the same skills as you do00:11
SpeedEvilSo it's generally not too hard to find a matching00:11
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: And I wasn't being serious.00:11
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acidjazzwow00:12
kynkycrashanddie, did you do any soldering in electronics degree ? matlab had a good electronics package00:12
crashanddieproblem is, even though I can solder, this laptop apparently is unable to be opened completely without breaking off some plastic bits around the hinges00:12
SpeedEvilunless you've managed to pull out some tracks, which can happen with SMD jacks. :/00:12
acidjazzstoked on the size of this channel :)00:12
* SpeedEvil hugs laptops with actual dissasembly manuals.00:12
crashanddieSpeedEvil, it's what I'm suspecting, there's a nasty cut on the mobo00:12
acidjazz<- ordered his n900 last week on amazon00:12
crashanddieacidjazz, congrats, you'll have it after xmas00:13
acidjazzso is the ship date still not known?00:13
acidjazzcrashanddie: lol00:13
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: I take it you've googled for dissasembly info?00:13
crashanddieSpeedEvil, yup00:13
acidjazzcrashhanddie; should i have ordered it from nokia.com ?00:13
crashanddieSpeedEvil, samsung r55, didn't find anything interesting00:13
crashanddieacidjazz, I dunno, but you could start by using tab or making an effort when spelling my nickname00:13
SpeedEvilcrashanddie: is that a netbook - pre-netbook?00:13
JamieBennettControversial but is anyone declining their developer offer?00:13
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crashanddieali1234, exhibit a why the nickname parsing would be fail00:13
crashanddieJamieBennett, which one?00:14
acidjazzcrashanddie: so you just basically think it wont ship anywhere near their estimated date00:14
kynkyu can get nokia n900 for £310 sim free from nokia store00:14
SpeedEvilJamieBennett: In the UK it's actually not cheaper to take it up. (unless you have to keep your existing phone contract for some reason)00:14
crashanddieacidjazz, dunno, I'm just a troll pissed off because of his lack of sound, don't mind me00:14
SpeedEvilkynky: 310? From nokia?00:14
acidjazzkynky: in the US? u lie00:14
JamieBennettcrashanddie the one that offers the n900 for a 'cheaper phone'00:14
kynkyim in uk00:15
crashanddieJamieBennett, I'm not in the conversation00:15
SpeedEvilkynky: nokia.co.uk has it at 49900:15
kynkyw00t, http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=351329&postcount=132600:15
ali1234crashanddie: i don't see it00:15
kynkywith discount codes it goes to £31000:15
crashanddie[22:13] <acidjazz> crashhanddie; should i have ordered it from nokia.com ?00:15
JamieBennettSeems very expensive compared to the 99$/£ that is was before00:15
ali1234so you want to measure when people talk about other people?00:15
luke-jrPandora is cheaper and more open ;)00:15
SpeedEvilkynky: ah - I see00:15
crashanddieali1234, nvmd00:16
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acidjazzTentative delivery date: November 2009.00:16
acidjazzUS site says end of October00:16
kynkyi ordered mine a few hours ago, w00t ordered 3 a few hours ago, on same deal, told my friend at work, he ordered 1 too00:16
absoluteI dunno, i saw that post on the "did your n900 ship today?" thread about getting all the discount codes, but when they listed the price in pounds, i figured it wasn't worth much to me, just kept my amazon usa order00:16
acidjazzlooks like a scam00:17
SpeedEvilkynky: damn, that is cheap00:17
kynkymobilephonesdirect (which do sim free and contract deals) say end of october00:17
acidjazzabsolute: i have an amazon usa order as well00:17
aSIMULAturi should order mine too00:17
acidjazzi dont really care too much to save money i just want the phone now! :)00:17
aSIMULAturme too!00:17
SpeedEvilkynky: what would be killer would be if you could apply that discount, and get a kickback off the contract too00:17
kynkySpeedEvil, i wasnt gonna get1, heard some1 here say discount codes, was straight onto google00:18
qwerty12_N810aSIMULAtor: You don't get to keep your current one? :\00:18
aSIMULAturhehe yeah i do00:18
qwerty12_N810Ah, lol00:18
aSIMULAturi'm just screwing around00:18
qwerty12_N810:p00:18
crashanddielmao00:18
crashanddielcuk, I posted an answer to my question a year and a half ago: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=1905900:18
timeless_mbpaSIMULAtor: so00:18
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timeless_mbpyou wanted a tool to deal w/ string hunting, right?00:18
aSIMULAturdid i?00:19
aSIMULAturok where is it00:19
kynkySpeedEvil, nothing stoppig you from say getting a contract for 18months with free n97, and then sell n97 on ebay00:19
crashanddietalk about brainfuck00:19
aSIMULAturi still haven't downloaded what u told me to download00:19
SpeedEvilkynky: hmm.00:19
aSIMULAturare u going to work tomorrow timeless00:19
timeless_mbpyep00:19
SpeedEvilkynky: problem with that route is phones are the number one thing fraudsters are going for on ebay00:19
timeless_mbpyou haven't downloaded it?!00:19
qwerty12_N810timeless_mbp: Send it my way, too; if I'm to fix Zenity, something that actually uses it would help :)00:19
aSIMULAturstop by my desk help me with this string download thing cause i lost the info when i reconnected shell/irc here00:20
aSIMULAturno i haven't00:20
aSIMULAturdon't killl me!00:20
kynkySpeedEvil, yeah heard that too, but wanna sell my touch pro on ebay, otherwise will have to sell on cex or phonebank etc00:20
aSIMULAturwhy not just..throw the touch pro somewhere00:20
aSIMULAturlike out the window00:20
aSIMULAturor00:20
aSIMULAturat a stupid person00:21
kynkylol00:21
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aSIMULAturthey're big phones00:21
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timeless_mbpaSIMULAtur: so, install the package now :)00:21
kynkybout same size as n90000:21
aSIMULAturis it? for some reason the n900 seems so much smaller00:22
aSIMULAturi guess cause it's more awesomenerrenrnssess00:22
timeless_mbpaSIMULAtur / qwerty12_N810 : the last item in the dialog lets you do string work00:22
timeless_mbpplease note that it takes a really long time to build the database00:22
timeless_mbpso don't be surprised once you ask for Advanced options that it spins for a long time before you get the next screen00:22
timeless_mbponce you're there though, you can do lots of things ... just don't cancel out of the main menu :)00:23
aSIMULAturwell i'm going to download this tomorrow, timestamp noted00:23
aSIMULAturcause it's time for sleep00:23
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aSIMULAturtimeless: do u sleep?00:24
timeless_mbpgood night00:24
timeless_mbpyes, between 2am and 10am or so :)00:24
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ifreqhttp://europe.nokia.com/microsites/discount-twitter00:24
aSIMULAturhow do u manage00:24
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timeless_mbpthat's 8hrs!00:24
aSIMULAturactually now that i think of it00:25
aSIMULAturu get more sleep than i do :P00:25
timeless_mbpheh00:25
aSIMULAturi average 6.5-7 hrs00:25
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aSIMULAturok then...good nite see you later00:26
GeneralAntillesWhy do I suddenly have two Others in h-a-m?00:26
timeless_mbpGeneralAntilles: is this my strings?00:26
GeneralAntillestimeless_mbp, no, haven't touched the strings since you gave me the tar package.00:26
timeless_mbpah00:26
timeless_mbpi've switched to having an almost proper package00:27
GeneralAntillesWhere is it?00:27
acidjazzso how is the maemo sdk? is it solid and easy to install/get into ?00:28
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kynkyit supports a lot of languages00:29
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mgedminhey! out amsterdam image has kernel 2.6.28-20094102+0m5, the maemo 5 sdk has kernel sources for 2.6.28-20093908+0m500:29
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qwerty12_N810mgedmin: The SDK repo is way out of date00:29
mgedminthat probably explains why my iptable_nat.ko gets the symbol version mismatch00:30
mgedminso where do I get the right kernel sources?00:30
mgedminplease don't tell me to send a written request to nokia00:30
qwerty12_N810Good question...00:30
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pupnik_i find no flasher images yet00:31
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GeneralAntillesHaven't been released yet.00:33
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* mgedmin sighs00:33
crashanddie_esd hack doesn't work on n900 :(00:34
ali1234just hack the module versioning00:34
ali1234i doubt anything got changed in netfilter00:34
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crashanddie_can't be bothered00:34
crashanddie_will just do it on the n81000:34
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lcuk2crashanddie, thats cos esd isnt on n900 i dont think00:37
crashanddie_lcuk, probably pulseaudio interfering00:37
crashanddie_lcuk2, but even after killing pulseaudio, esd doesn't take over00:37
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paulo_ouriquesid like to know how hildon-application-manager lists the instaled applications.00:39
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timeless_mbppaulo_ouriques: it's open source00:40
timeless_mbpyou could read it00:40
paulo_ouriquesi think that is not with dpkg00:40
timeless_mbppaulo_ouriques: do you want maemo4 or maemo5 ?00:40
lcuk2paulo_ouriques, my guess, it makes a virtual list and tells gtk to draw them00:40
Macergodfather 1 is great00:40
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paulo_ouriqueshow i do it with ssh?00:41
mgedminmy Internet Connection Sharing thread on maemo-users@ resembles a monologue00:42
crashanddie_paulo_ouriques, do you want the installed applications or available ones?00:42
absolutepaulo_ouriques: it is simplyl a frontend for apt and dpkg00:42
paulo_ouriquesinstalled00:42
absoluteit uses them00:42
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mgedmincrashanddie_: why would you want to replace pulseaudio with esd?00:42
crashanddie_paulo_ouriques, dpkg -l?00:42
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timeless_mbpmgedmin: old obsolete technology is great :!00:42
Macerhaha00:43
crashanddie_paulo_ouriques, dpkg --get-selection00:43
crashanddie_paulo_ouriques, dpkg --get-selections00:43
mgedminfor more human-friendly output dpkg -l00:43
crashanddie_mgedmin, you're late :P00:43
mgedminfor more human-friendly output that doesn't truncate package names arbitrarily, dpkg -l|cat00:43
absolutewhy pipe it into cat?00:43
crashanddie_absolute, try it00:43
timeless_mbpdpkg will do sizing to terminal width otherwise00:44
mgedminabsolute: because dpkg checks if stdout is a tty and if so truncates it to fit $COLUMNS00:44
timeless_mbpwhich is usually annoying00:44
absoluteooooooh ok00:44
absolutethat makes sense00:44
absolutethat's a neat trick00:44
absolutei'mma remember that00:44
* mgedmin has this little alias list-installed-packages=dpkg-query -W --showformat '${STATUS} ${PACKAGE}=${VERSION}\n'|grep ' installed '|cut -d ' ' -f 4-00:44
qwerty12_N810That is useful indeed, thanks mgedmin00:45
mgedminneeds dpkg-query which comes from I don't remember where00:45
mgedminI use it to compare package versions on two different machines00:45
mgedminfor more casual use the =${VERSION} ought to be omitted00:45
paulo_ouriquesbut using dpkg  -- get-selection i have all of installed app, and i want only the hildon-application-manager list.00:46
mgedminpaulo_ouriques: filter those that are from section: user/*00:46
crashanddie_paulo_ouriques, it's based on the user/ section00:46
mgedminyou could do that with dpkg-query, I suppose00:46
* qwerty12_N810 begins installing libgtk2.0-dev on the N900. Yay for the device having newer components than the SDK!00:47
paulo_ouriqueshow i filter it?00:47
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* mgedmin sighs at the incredible disk-grinding slowness of dpkg -S00:47
mgedminoh, cool, dpkg-query is part of dpkg00:47
mgedminI thought it was some perl addon00:48
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lardmanevening all00:48
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crashanddie_o/ lardman00:49
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mgedminhere goes ...00:50
lardmanhey crashanddie_, how's Python?00:50
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mgedminif I suddenly drop off irc (after the obligatory 5 minute timeout), means insmod iptable_nat.ko b0rked my device00:50
* lardman covers his ears and wonders what mgedmin is doing....00:50
lcuk2hey lardman \o00:51
lardmanah :)00:51
lardmanhi lcuk200:51
mgedminyay Unknown symbol in module00:51
crashanddie_lardman, going00:51
lcuk2hows you today00:51
mgedminnow all I need is to figure out the right order00:51
lardmanlcuk2: good, done some exercise, now drinking wine00:51
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guysoft42how can you switch modes in sb2? it keeps saying: SB2: apt-get wrapper: Operation denied in this mode (devel)00:52
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qwerty12_N810guysoft42: See why I prefer SB1? :)00:52
guysoft42qwerty12_N810, yes yes, i know00:52
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guysoft42qwerty12_N810, i think its with -m00:52
lcuk2lardman, wine is good00:54
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mgedmin_okay, this particular kernel panic was my fault00:57
zerojayN900heh00:58
lardmanhi zerojayN90000:58
paulo_ouriquesHow i filter the output of dpkg --get-selections to user/*?00:59
lardmangrep the output?00:59
paulo_ouriquesyos00:59
paulo_ouriques*yes01:00
mgedmin_--selections doesn't show sections01:00
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mgedmin_dpkg-query is a better choice01:00
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mgedmin_paulo_ouriques: read the manual page of dpkg-query and craft the appropriate query01:00
mgedmin_match on status being installed and on section starting with user/01:00
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* qwerty12_N810 points out that maemo-list-user-packages exists for exactly that purpose01:00
absoluteie "man dpkg-query"01:01
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* lardman wonders where he got a second N810/N900 cable from01:01
paulo_ouriquesi'll be do it, thanks.01:01
mgedmin_qwerty12_N810: bingo!01:01
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mgedmin_but does it show available or installed packages?01:02
mgedmin_installed, looks like01:02
qwerty12_N810It's a script, go edit it :p01:02
lardmanhey qwerty12_N810, how are you?01:02
absolutehehe, i don't like relying too heavily on distro-specific stuff personally01:02
mgedmin_and it does use dpkg-query, proving that I was right by suggesting that tool01:02
absolutebut definitely worth checking out the commands in the script01:03
absoluteto know how to do it across distros01:03
qwerty12_N810Hiya, lardman, I'm good thanks, how about you?01:03
mgedmin_hey, absolute, the "user/" prefix for sections *is* distro-specific stuff01:03
mgedmin_only maemo does that01:03
mgedmin_afaik01:03
lardmanqwerty12_N810: not bad thanks01:03
absoluteyeah, i suppose that part is true01:04
qwerty12_N810Gotten libdmtx in -devel yet?01:04
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absolutei just mean, its advantageous to understand the underlying commands because that can be re-used elsewhere01:05
lardmanqwerty12_N810: I think so, should be there now01:06
mgedmin_that's a good attitude to have01:06
qwerty12_N810lardman: Cool, get lardcode there and you'll save RST38h from banging his head :p01:07
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lardmanqwerty12_N810: will do, am just splitting the code up into diablo/N8x0 and fremantle/n900 specific so I can add the libgdigicam and fremantle ui stuff01:08
lardmanwithout too many #ifdefs that is01:08
qwerty12_N810Is libgdigicam even in the SDK repository? I saw it on gitorious, at least...01:09
crashanddie_anyone know if promiscuous mode is supported on maemo5?01:09
crashanddie_or well, the driver for wifi in the n900?01:09
mgedmin_master mode isn't01:09
lcuk:D01:09
lardmanqwerty12_N810: no idea, bridges and crossing when we get to them come to mind ;)01:10
lcuklardman, did you see the 3 streams available for the camera01:10
pupnik_wut01:10
zerojayN900lardman: hey01:10
pupnik_show01:10
lardmancrashanddie_: yeah, write a maemo version of driftnet :)01:10
qwerty12_N810lardman: Good strategy...01:10
lcukviewfinder, cam, movie01:10
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mgedmin_fyi apt-cache search libgdigicam finds 0 results in the fremantle sdk01:10
lardmanlcuk: yep thanks01:10
qwerty12_N810Thanks, mgedmin_01:10
lcuklardman, so that means we are taking full res pics at the moment01:11
lardmanfor whoever organises the next summit, have a PC running driftnet somewhere, would be cool :)01:11
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lcukwhich explains the difference between rendering on barcode and rendering on the viewfinder01:11
lardmanlcuk: yeah, but I use a caps to scale them down01:11
mgedmin_heh lardman01:11
lardman:)01:11
zerojayN900driftnet?01:11
qwerty12_N810lardman: With someone accessing goatse?01:11
crashanddie_lardman, driftnet is lame :P01:11
lardman~google ;)01:11
lcuklardman, yeah - but the viewfinder is more realtime oriented01:12
lardmancrashanddie_: but your app will be better.... ;p01:12
lcukwithout scaling back down01:12
lardmanlcuk: yep, would make more sense to use that01:12
lcuknote the difference in refresh rate and wobblyness01:12
crashanddie_lardman, I'll make renderman proud01:12
* mgedmin_ is keeping his n900 pretty warm01:12
lardman:)01:12
lardmanmgedmin_: wifi power saving off...?01:13
lardmankeep the whole room warm that way01:13
mgedmin_charger on + lots of usage01:13
mgedmin_and yeah, the room could use some heating01:13
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absoluteI hear foreplay works well if you're looking for promiscuous mode :-x01:14
lardmanbada-boom!01:14
lcukmgedmin_, play videos of a warm open fire01:14
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mgedmin_extensions/libipt_string.c:208: error: 'struct xt_string_info' has no member named 'invert'01:15
mgedmin_no iptables userspace for me :(01:15
mgedmin_defeated at both fronts :(01:16
mgedmin_will have to get my internet fix through five dirty socks ...01:16
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* lardman is slightly concerned for mgedmin_01:17
ali1234mgedmin_: i suggest using socks proxy over openssh01:18
* qwerty12_N810 's router problems pale in comparison01:18
* w00t seriously cannot wait.01:18
mgedmin_ali1234: helloo? how do you think I'm talking to you here?01:18
ali1234well there you go :)01:18
mgedmin_socks suck01:18
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mgedmin_the LD_PRELOAD based wrapper doesn't work in scratchbox for one01:18
mgedmin_I have to apt-get --print-uris, then wget them to the right places01:19
mgedmin_pain01:19
mgedmin_not to mention reconfiguring the browser every time I switch nets01:19
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ali1234well, that's scratchbox's fault01:19
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smackpotathow much were the developer discounted n900's01:23
GAN900$37001:24
pupnik_ty for that apt-get --print-uris tip01:24
GAN9000r around €300 for more European countries.01:24
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crashanddie_GAN900, more european than the US?01:25
ali1234mgedmin_: why don't you use pc suite mode on usb?01:25
crashanddie_GAN900, isn't that like the article about obama being the most european president ever, and obama being the least european president ever?01:25
mgedmin_ali1234: cables are for hobos01:25
mgedmin_as one of my facebook friends recently said to me01:26
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crashanddie_mgedmin_, wireless is for cancer01:27
mgedmin_yummy01:27
mgedmin_get on the internet while keeping your coffee warm at the same time!01:27
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zerojayYou won't believe how many bums I see with a trail of Cat5 behind them.01:28
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lardmanI'm rather hungry, rather fancy some bacon01:29
lcuki had to give the cats bacon01:29
lcukwe had no catfood and i was afraid they would start gnawing on my leg in the night01:29
lardmanwhat a waste01:29
lardman!01:29
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lardmanI'd have shot them instead of wasting bacon01:30
lardmanbut I don't like cats01:30
lardmanand I do like bacon01:30
lardmanso I may alienate some people here now :)01:30
lcukhaha01:30
lcukyou could even make little rashers out of the cats themselves :O01:30
* mgedmin_ likes cats and thinks bacon is inedible01:31
* lcuk has 3 cats :)01:31
lcukand likes to live01:31
lcukso it was either me or the bacon01:31
lardmanlol01:31
lardmanhmm, no bacon in the fridge, am tucking into a nearly out-of-date bag of "wild rocket"01:32
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lcuklardman, as long as its not turned to mush it cant be out of date01:32
lcukjust start worrying when it starts growing again01:32
lardman70g "wild rocket" ~= 1x sniff of bacon01:32
lardmanyeah growing and turning purple01:33
lcukhah01:33
pupnik_http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php01:33
pupnik_404!01:33
pupnik_:)01:33
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pupnik_what is wild rocket anyway01:34
SpeedEvilHMM01:34
zerojayAnyone out there agree with my assessment? - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=33131&goto=newpost01:34
* SpeedEvil notices that on some cashback websites, the first year of a phone is actually free, with 1G of phone per month, and moderate (300 mins) per month01:35
lardmanpupnik: peppery type of salad leaf01:35
SpeedEvil(uk)01:35
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SpeedEvilIsn't rocket a cultivar - it's not a naturally occuring lettuce?01:35
kynkySpeedEvil, for n900? where ?01:36
mgedmin_tcl/tk on a n810? not a good idea01:36
ifreqhas anyone counted how many ppl will brick their phones @1st week after official release01:36
ifreq:-)01:36
lardmanSpeedEvil: no idea01:36
lardmanmgedmin_: what the compiling it?01:37
SpeedEvilkynky: no - but01:37
mgedmin_^ zerojay's link01:37
zerojaymgedmin_: tcl/tk is a bad idea in ANY case anyways.01:37
SpeedEvilkynky: http://www.onecompare.com/buy-a-mobile-phone/best-mobile-phone-deals.asp?skn=moneysavingexpert&SearchID=1220181&manufacturer=&model= - I don't know if this works for you01:37
SpeedEvilkynky: I selected a nokia 1208 - with the assumption that I'd pick it on ebay01:37
SpeedEvilkynky: sell it01:37
kynkyzerojay, tk is nice01:38
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ali1234tkinter has the least dependencies of any python gui library01:38
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lardmanand features....?01:38
SpeedEvilkynky: Combi £25 plus web n walk promo 12 Month Contract - and you get most of the line rental back in 5 equal cheques.01:39
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ali1234features wise it is very basic, that also makes it easy to learn01:39
kynkysweet, just make sure you dont get caught out01:39
SpeedEvilkynky: that's the big problem, yes01:39
* mgedmin_ wonders about the size of people who bash tcl/tk but love git01:39
* mgedmin_ also wonders about their views on gitk01:40
pupnik_hahaha @ zerojay 's link01:40
hardaker2I hate tcl/Tk and think the world should be moving to wxwidgets or, failing that, qt/gtk but i also think that gitk could use a serious UI improvement.  It *looks* like it's written in Tk ;-)01:41
kynkytk supports native widgets now, and is only official toolkit for ruby, and tk support is there for practically every language, and works with lots of OSes01:41
zerojayI wouldn't wish tcl/tk on my worst enemy.01:41
ali1234wxwidgets is horrible horrible programming environment01:41
hardaker2ali1234: It's, um, odd...01:41
hardaker2but I wouldn't say horrible.01:41
w00tzerojay: because i'm in a bit of a meta mood, thanks for the thanks!01:41
ali1234qt is odd. qx is horrible.01:41
w00t;)01:41
hardaker2it takes a bit of getting used to, but once you are I actually think it's ok.01:41
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kynkyfltk2 looks good01:42
hardaker2I'm always amazed at how impossible people make GUI languages.  Have you ever seen one that doesn't suck?01:42
kynkybut gtk and qt are the big201:42
ali1234tkinter doesn't suck, but that might be just cos of python hiding all the suckyness01:42
w00teverything has rough edges, hardaker201:42
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ali1234but yeah, most gui toolkits are a nightmare01:43
zerojayAll those smaller UI languages just end up being horrible dependency hells with random amounts of breakage.01:43
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hardaker2w00t: no, it more has to do by design.  by design they're a pain to use.01:43
w00tit's also important to realise that different people have different needs and workflows01:43
w00tnah01:43
w00tnobody sets out to make something a pain in the ass :p01:43
w00twell, unless they are masochists01:43
kynkyif ui was easy, lots of ppl would be out of job, but now a big push to webapps at the mo01:43
hardaker2for 99% of the GUI stuff you need you shouldn't have to learn what a packer even is.  It should be the default to be able to create simple windows.01:43
w00thardaker2: the UI doesn't know that you want stuff top left aligned with the button on the right hand side of the textbox01:44
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w00tyou need to tell it that01:44
w00tbut declarative UI (for example) or qt creator makes that process a lot easier anyway01:44
hardaker2actually, the web shows you that it's simplicity in language is what has helped it the most.  <form> <input type="..."></input>.  *that* is how simple everything should be in it's default form.01:45
* lcuk is pleased i finally found the proper way to show liqbase engine01:45
kynkyglade? althoughive never used it01:45
crashanddie_lol https://www.google.com/voice/fm/04807385505702370642/AHwOX_CFSs6rxsKN6d5wEznZyECtNntLn-O39x8W0KU3lE7CrAXz1IOHsoIn1Ir2q0xuWyAQpl1ssu6vW3Zfbx19y_0omVoyu-eJ5icOdpiSj2okVIYghiJdCsBX0KTaS425DnP6BVw5g2PhNCKiRa2d5FXytb59BA01:45
w00thardaker2: http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2009/05/13/qt-declarative-ui/01:45
ali1234hardaker2: that's where xml dialogs come into it01:45
* lcuk uses visual basic to create form layouts on maemo01:45
lardmanphew, managed to split code up01:45
w00tlcuk: never tried creator?01:46
w00tit's pretty easy after a few minutes of adapting01:46
lcukw00t, creator doesnt help me today01:46
lcukit WILL01:46
w00thm01:46
kynkyhardaker2, i just hate the javascript, and browser inconsistencies, but jquery does help01:46
w00twhy?01:46
lcukbut it just doesnt now01:46
hardaker2w00t: interesting.  Though, it should be the default not the extension :-)01:46
lcukok, look at this01:46
lcukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hGUKICDeok01:46
w00thardaker2: it's new, give it time01:46
lcukthe presentation i fly through01:46
hardaker2kynky: I hear ya on the JS issues and stuff...01:46
lcukis just a visual basic project01:46
w00tlcuk: cheating! :P01:47
lcukno01:47
lcukno cheating01:47
mgedmin_oh yay a toolkit flame01:47
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lcuk100% dynamic load and use01:47
lcukreads .vbp01:47
w00tI'm yanking your chain anyway ;)01:47
lcukreads the .frm01:47
w00tmgedmin_: that was a flame?01:47
lcukshows em01:47
w00tmy god, where have you been for the real flamewars01:48
w00t:P01:48
* hardaker2 puts down the very small match.01:48
kynkyi do agree with zerojay , tcl is crazy :)01:48
* w00t mentions that emacs sucks and casually wanders off01:48
lcukw00t, have you seen the recursion on the engine ;)01:48
* lardman whips out some bottles and rags01:48
lcukand the speed01:48
zerojayIn the past, people used to get stuck in wells.01:50
zerojayToday, people get stuck in... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCHteZnFA3E01:50
lcukw00t, i would like to make a qt widget using liqcell as its core ;)01:50
w00tit'd be quite possible from looking at the video01:50
w00tscale items in a graphicsscene01:51
w00tI was playing with similar tricks earlier for qmantle's appswitcher too01:51
lcukwhy scale?01:51
lcukthe same widget might be shown on screen at any one time in more than one size01:51
w00tsure, and I'm sure you can do that01:51
w00tbut you do already have the issue of going from having a huge overview of different bits and pieces to zooming in on one widget, yes?01:52
lcukno01:52
lcukno scaling going on01:52
w00tuh01:52
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w00tso you're not zooming in to look at the widget?01:52
lcukthe engine just says "render you (800,480)   into this space here   (100,100)01:52
w00tthat's exactly what scaling is01:52
lcukand it just always does the best it can01:53
lcukit doesnt scale the widget01:53
lcukit just draws it as required01:53
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lcukno cos scaling implied resize signals01:53
w00tno, it doesn't01:54
w00tit's the graphical item you're scaling01:54
w00tnot the widget01:54
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w00ti gotta run off to bed anyhow01:54
w00twork tomorrow :-(01:54
lcuk:(01:55
* lcuk wishes he was too01:55
lcukgnite01:55
w00thit me up tomorrow, we can talk more then01:55
* lcuk nods01:55
lcukthis works well on 8x001:55
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b-man17hay xnt14 :)02:07
xnt14hi :)02:07
b-man17http://b-man.xceleo.org/images/fremantle :)02:08
Firebirdhurray02:08
pupnik_???02:08
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pupnik_nice b-man1702:09
b-man17thanks :)02:09
xnt14awesome :)02:09
b-man17i still need to figure out how i can add/delete items :(02:09
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pupnik_somehow my experiments replacing bootsplash on n810 failed02:10
pupnik_i would see it for an instant before desktop02:10
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Andrilmmmm n810 talk :)02:19
* lcuk likes n81002:22
Xisdibikb-man17: did you make that?02:23
b-man17yu02:25
b-man17*yup02:25
b-man17(it´s still in early development)02:26
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Xisdibiklooks nice02:29
lcuknice b-man17 :)02:29
lcukgreat start02:29
lcukhave you posted on tmo?02:30
b-man17tmo?02:30
Xisdibiktmobile02:30
lcukim sure people will jump on board02:30
lcuktheres a lot of interest in the bootsplash02:30
lcuktalk.maemo.org02:30
lcukthey will help you to fill in the blanks02:30
b-man17yup :)02:30
lcukthread?02:30
* b-man17 grabs the link...02:30
lcuk:)02:30
b-man17http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=3300002:31
b-man17:)02:31
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lcukb-man17, great stuff :D02:34
b-man17thanks :D02:34
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b-man17lcuk: btw, is the source for http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r8JJkDv7hw&feature=related publicly available?02:37
lcuki believe it is02:37
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lcukthe controller is already available had been for ages02:37
Xisdibikb-man17: how long is a bootsplash usually?02:38
lcukas long as the video02:38
lcukjust dont be silly02:38
lcukwe dont know if theres any way to interupt it02:38
lcukactually b-man17 ....02:39
lcukmight be an idea to put an upper limit just on filesize02:39
lcukto prevent that02:39
lcukno point in opening full vid02:39
b-man17true02:39
lcukjust to stop random "oops i have to play a dvd before booting"02:39
b-man17lol02:39
lcukwould be interesting ploy from the media executives in hollywood02:40
lcuk"omg they HAVE to watch it now!!!!02:40
pupnik_hmm02:41
pupnik_we could do virtual graffitti02:41
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pupnik_agps + orientation and device learns orientation of a wall02:41
b-man17lcuk: the avi´s arn´t any longer than this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuBHDnpSFE0 ;)02:41
pupnik_you could leave messages for people scrawled on fridges, desktops, walls02:41
pupnik_and they would have to hold device up to it to read it02:41
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ali1234except n900 doesn't have a compass02:42
b-man17gps can fit that (kinda)02:42
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absoluteclose enough :)02:42
lcukpupnik, cheap enough to just but simple n800/smartq devices up and use liqbase02:42
absoluteif you really need a compass, you're not gonna be relying on a phone anyways02:42
lcukput02:43
absoluteI'm buying a military surplus lensatic compass on friday :)02:43
Xisdibiklcuk, yea i understand its any length you want (unless he puts a filesize cap)02:43
Xisdibikbut like how long is the generic nokia one <<< doesnt have a Nxxx02:43
ali1234not long02:44
b-man17absolute: nice02:44
ali1234but i have to wonder if i replace it with a 1 frame video, will it boot quicker? (like that longstanding bug with kde startup sound)02:44
absolutemilitary surplus is good for random outdoorsy things02:45
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lcukali1234, it may do02:45
lcukjust disable all02:45
lcukwill be better02:45
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lcukif the device can avoid reading and rendering that video - it will obviously finish all its tasks quicker than if it was working02:45
ali1234obviously02:45
lcukwhether the boot will appear to be quicker is another matter02:46
ali1234but does it even play it asynchronously?02:46
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lcukor whether it will just sit idle expecting something02:46
lcukdunno02:46
ali1234or does it stop doing everything else for the duration of that clip?02:46
lcukit might be at a point in the normal boot sequence where theres a pause anyway02:46
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* lcuk shrugs02:46
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ali1234there's never a pause when booting on arm, at least there should not be02:47
* b-man17 gives in and and posts another GTK related question on talk.maemo.org ><02:47
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b-man17(still trying to figure out how to add/remove elements)02:48
b-man17in a selection02:49
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lardmannight all02:55
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* luke-jr learned something new today:02:56
luke-jrUSA does not have SIM cards period :/02:56
ieiperiod?02:57
absolutewtf?02:57
absolutesays who02:57
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absoluteunless this is a fake sim card, you've been lied to02:58
luke-jrthe one place I'd expect to carry them, WalMart, has none02:58
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absolutemy phone definitely has a sim card in it... i got this one from cingular before at&t bought them out02:59
luke-jreverything I thought was a SIM card was just a piece of plastic with an "activation code" on it03:00
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absolutehehe, prepaid phone cards03:03
zashSIM-cards is a GSM thing03:03
zashthat lets you auth against a GSM network, and it has some storage for contacts03:04
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lcukluke-jr, hi03:05
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absolutezash: i understand, but what luke-jr was looking at in the wal-mart were likely pre-paid phone cards03:08
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GAN900zerojay, remembered tonight!03:09
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Xisdibiki didnt GAN90003:13
Xisdibikwhats happening tonight?03:13
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GAN900I remembered to photograph my dinner for Maemo EATS! on Flickr.03:16
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luke-jrlcuk: hi03:20
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RobertH[AU]yay i have octave compiling on the sdk right now :)03:28
RobertH[AU]is the wiki the best place to document how i installed it for others?03:30
zerojayGAN900: Me too. :D03:31
zerojayluke-jr: US definitely has SIM cards.03:31
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luke-jrzerojay: where?03:35
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zerojayluke-jr: Almost any phone company will sell you one for $25.03:36
luke-jrwtf?03:36
luke-jrwhy would you pay for a SIM card?03:36
zerojayYou're the one that wants one, so you tell me.03:36
luke-jrisn't it just a piece of plastic with a bit of electronics that enables them to sell you minutes?03:37
zerojayYep.03:37
luke-jrI was expecting to walk into WalMart, pick up a SIM card, and load $5 onto it.03:37
zerojayMy company had to pay $30/SIM for them... and we had maybe 40 of them... 20 of them were active... I think we paid something like $10k per month.03:37
luke-jrwtf03:38
zerojayWe were doing something like 30GB of data per card.03:38
zerojayI'm not talking about company phones but phones and SIMs we used for QA on our cell phone games.03:39
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till-o2 germany offers up to four prepaid sim cards for free03:49
till-and provides one month free umts03:49
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SpeedEvilIt'd be so nice if you could use multiple SIMs04:11
dotblankyou have tmo and at&t?04:12
SpeedEvilI'm in the UK - one provider offers free skype and MSN04:14
SpeedEvilAnd so on04:14
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pupnik__i only need OTG data occasionally04:22
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pupnikmoo04:48
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code177yo05:59
code177I have a pygtk question which is driving me crazy. if i have an iconview full of thumbnails, how the hell do i make it so when you click on one, it calls a function and passes the relevent data06:01
code177i feel like i06:01
code177have tried everything06:01
code177the closest I've gotten is calling iconview.connect("button-press-event", self.function, userdata)06:01
code177but all that does is send the userdata from the last thumbnail appended >.<06:02
code177so. does anyone have any ideas06:02
code177?06:02
pupnikmaybe06:02
code177okay...06:04
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lcukcode177, http://zetcode.com/tutorials/pygtktutorial/advancedwidgets/06:05
lcuklooks like a great example06:05
* code177 reads06:06
lcuko_O maybe not06:07
lcukthat does multiselect06:07
lcukand doesnt try to identify click06:07
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code177hmm06:09
code177all i need to do is call a function with the thumbnail id06:09
pupnikmaybe pygtk is incomplete?06:09
code177who knew that would be so difficult06:09
pupnikhttp://tablets-dev.nokia.com/nokia_N900.php  meh :(06:10
code177can you put an eventbox in a liststore?06:11
code177oh nevermind. then i'd be back to square one06:12
code177hmmm06:12
lcukwhay are you trying to do06:13
lcukie what icons etc06:13
lcukmaybe there is an alternative06:13
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code177well I'm building this wallpaper manager that runs off n900wallpapers.com, right06:13
code177so i have my thumbnails in an iconview as pixbufs06:14
lcukthe one b-man and co are hacking at06:14
code177hmm?06:14
code177so in order to get to the window for individual wallpaper i'm going to need the id06:15
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code177also, who's hacking at what now?06:15
lcukhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=3300006:16
lcukhad to find the thread06:16
lcuki think you guys are together06:16
lcukif not, you should be :P06:17
lcukahhh wallpaprts06:17
code177ya lol06:17
lcukand startup screens!06:17
lcukstill06:17
code177!06:17
code177yes06:17
lcukdont double up on code06:17
code177eventually the two will come together im sure06:17
lcukits basically the same thing06:17
lcuktalk about how each other are implementing it and share ideas06:17
lcukand make the best of both06:17
lcukhave you seen the liqbase image selector?06:18
code177well.. looking at what they're up to it seems pretty different at the moment06:18
code177aside from selecting images..06:18
code177nope.. should i?06:18
lcukhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjDEvXueO0I06:18
lcukthis is the graffiti wall06:19
lcukill find a bit with image select in ;)06:19
code177ooh yeah06:19
code177i saw that earlier06:19
code177anyhow, this doesn't solve my initial issue ;)06:20
lcukhehe i know06:20
code177this should be really simple06:20
code177i think i must be missing something06:20
lcukwhats the actual iconview class called06:20
lcukis it just iconview06:20
code177yeah06:21
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code177model = gtkListStore(gtk.gdk.Pixbuf)06:21
code177gallery = gtk.IconView(model)06:21
code177with some model.append in between06:21
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BBNSello ello06:23
BBNSlooks like 'N900 shipping' thread is gonna burst.06:24
microlithprobably06:24
microlithwhat with almost doubling its post count in less than a week06:24
BBNSsooon .... ya shall be granted!06:25
pupniki'm surprised t.m.o has gotten so many users06:26
pupnikthat is nice06:26
lcukIn the on_item_activated() method, we react to an event, which is generated, when we click on a icon from the icon view widget.06:26
pupnikwell 'so many' is subjective06:26
lcukhttp://zetcode.com/tutorials/pygtktutorial/advancedwidgets/06:26
lcuksame page as before06:26
lcukit was there06:26
lcukjust hiding06:26
lcukcode177, ^06:27
code177yeah i'm staring at that right now, coincidentally06:27
microlithpupnik: N900 is pretty big, its announcement came at just the right time06:27
code177what i dont get:06:27
lcuklol06:27
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code177are path and isDir setting from each individual icon, or somewhere else?06:28
microliththere's still no equivalent GSM android phone that I'm aware of06:28
code177i'm not seeing it06:28
code177maybe i've been staring at the screen too long06:28
lcukperhaps you have06:28
lcuki know i have06:28
BBNSmicrolith, i can't imagine myself writing shader code on droid. =P06:28
pupniki think the device is pretty much as close to perfect as i'd hoped-for06:29
SolarionBBNS: can you write shader code on n900?06:29
BBNSSolarion, yep06:29
Solarionw00t06:29
* code177 keeps staring06:29
SolarionBBNS: I want flops, dangit06:29
* Solarion flogs the DSP06:29
BBNSSolarion, you can write DSP code too. that's a bit hacky.06:29
code177lcuk: "   self.store.append([fl, self.dirIcon, True])" - what's going on here?06:30
* lcuk offers code177 some bacon06:30
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Solarionhacky wrt what?06:30
lcuki dunno06:30
code177hmm06:30
lcuki dont write gtk06:30
Solarionlcuk: push button?06:30
* code177 looks up .append again06:30
code177lcuk: aw. I've only been writing it for.. 2 days06:30
lcukreceive bacon06:30
Solarionlcuk: :)06:30
SolarionBBNS: is likely less hacky than trying to do GPGPU with shader code (though I'd dearly love to try....)06:30
SolarionDSP + shader = win?06:31
BBNSSolarion, GPGPU on N900 is easy.06:31
Solarionoh?06:31
pupnikfolding@pocket06:31
dmj7261What do people think about the WoG thing?06:31
SolarionDANGITIWANTONESOBADLYNOW06:31
BBNSSolarion, DSP i am not sure. you could use OpenMax or Gstreamer dsp plug-in06:31
dmj7261Solarion: join the club06:32
SolarionBBNS: there's an interface into it06:32
Solariondmj7261: I don't get discount. :(06:32
SolarionI have crappy pay06:32
dmj7261I don't get the discount either.06:32
Solarionhopefully it'll come bundled with some carrier.06:32
BBNSi don't have discount too. =P don't be sad.06:32
microlithpupnik: brings new meaning to the phrase "hot pocket"06:32
* pupnik lets the slave drop peeled grapes into his mouth as he fondles the n90006:32
Solariondmj7261: let us commiserate06:32
code177lol06:32
SolarionBBNS: bah, you probably get paid decently06:32
dmj7261It looks like the one phone I've been looking for for years06:32
SolarionBBNS: do you have link on gpgpu/n900?06:33
dmj7261iphone (and more and more) android rubbed me wrong06:33
clearycan anyone comment on it's depth?06:33
BBNSSolarion, nope. but you could port some shaders to it.06:33
pupnikwhat was it about android, dmj7261 ?06:33
dmj7261never had either, but the restrictions were unacceptable06:33
pupnikk06:33
* Solarion calculates the band stucture of InGaAs with pseudopotentials on hs imaginary n90006:33
clearyit's roughly 2x fatter than an E71, I'm worried how that sits in your pocket06:33
dmj7261It wasn't as Linuxy as my Ubuntu06:33
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pupniksmelled wrong to me so i didn't even wander close06:34
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SolarionBBNS: tmk, shaders aren't identical to GPGPU06:34
Solarionthey can be hacked into it, but they're not the same06:34
* Solarion hasn't actually misused shaders for this, however, so this is hearsay06:34
SolarionI need to blather less and do more06:34
GeneralAntillesIs it just me, or does every thread ChristExaport participate in devolve into endless bickering?06:34
BBNSSolarion, it's possible. at least I have wrote some DSP code based on shaders.06:34
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SolarionBBNS: link?06:34
pupnikthere are nice n-body simulations of the big-bang done on gpus (youtube etc)06:35
SolarionIs there gonna be an OpenCL ES? :)06:35
BBNSSolarion, no link. just my small toy.06:35
Solarionaww06:35
Solarioncan I play with your toy?06:35
SolarionI promise to not not break it.06:35
pupnikthe NeXT did fractal rendering on the motorola 56k dsp back around 199206:35
Solarionprobably06:36
Solarionthere's good stuff out there06:36
BBNSSolarion, i don't have it. but you can check "SIFT on GPU" http://www.cs.unc.edu/~ccwu/siftgpu/06:36
SolarionBBNS: what resource would you recommend to learn OGL ES?06:36
* Solarion got the OGL 2 Book (Orange?) back a few years ago06:36
BBNSI learned from PowerVR SDK.06:37
BBNSthere is a OGL ES2 book (purple)06:37
BBNSbut there are some errors in the book.06:37
BBNSsome codes never compiled correctly.06:37
Solarionhmm06:38
SolarionIs PowerVR SDK generally available?06:38
lcukits included in the maemo sdk06:38
BBNSyeah, there is one specific for maemo too.06:38
lcukruns in software on your pc06:38
lcukand same code on hardware on your device06:38
Solarionah, cool06:39
lcuk:) theres a virtual image i think even06:39
* Solarion has the maemo sdk going06:39
BBNShttp://www.imgtec.com/powervr/insider/sdk/KhronosOpenGLES2xSGX.asp06:39
lcukyeah, its lookin quite good, not sure on any performance levels06:39
SolarionI just gotta figure out how to get the hardware. :(06:39
lcuki barely touch the 3d06:39
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BBNSperformance is decent i said.06:39
lcuki know on the device its sweet06:40
microlithSolarion: sit back and wait like the rest of us :)06:40
Solarionmicrolith: I need cash too06:40
microlithwell, I guess longer then :)06:40
* lcuk looks for his stylus06:40
Solarionmaybe I can go to the next loaner-hardware group06:40
Solariongonna wait quite a while. :(06:40
BBNSSolarion, write an app and impress the community then you will get discount. =P06:41
lcukSolarion, are you near any of the nokia main stores?06:41
lcukif so, write an app that will knock our socks off and go show it at one of the parties on real hardware :D06:41
Solarionlcuk: probably not06:42
lcukhaha06:42
lcukwhat did you want the 3d for then06:42
Solarionlcuk: gpgpu06:42
SolarionBBNS: I have app, but it sucks (yet)06:42
Solarionit shall soon suck less06:43
lcukwhat does it do06:43
Solarionlcuk: it displays semiconductor material information in a 2D plot of property x vs y06:43
SolarionI'll include a sample file to help people get it at least run and dipslaying stuff06:43
lcukis that all gpgpu can do?06:44
Solarionvery useful if you're working in semiconductors. :)06:44
lcukcould i use it in liqbase06:44
SolarionNo, GPGPU isn't needed06:44
lcukto do extra fluid dynamics calcs06:44
lcukstill use cpu for rendering06:44
SolarionGPGPU would be used for small-scale computations (say, for instance, the band diagram of a material)06:44
lcukpowervr for the dynamics06:44
lcukhave you seen liqflow?06:44
Solarionnope06:45
* Solarion does solid state06:45
Solarionah, time's up. Gotta go06:45
Solarionat least cox fixed our network connection. Down with squirrels!!06:45
* Solarion &06:45
BBNSciao06:45
Solarion(seriously, we need fewer tree rats in the world)06:45
lcukSolarion, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rEZxWjVvGo#t=5m18s lol06:46
lcukdamn you goin - i would like that with more particles06:46
lcukif i could do the fluid dynamics itself on gpu, it could be quite interesting06:47
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pupnik"06:49
pupnikAt the moment, I can't say much about the secondary (front-facing) camera other than it is there and offers VGA (640x480) resolution for both stills and videos (in H.263 format). "06:49
pupnikhttp://my-symbian.com/other/preview_n900.php?page=406:49
pupnikheh06:49
code177\o/06:50
code177success!06:50
code177it's really obvious06:51
code177lol06:51
lcukhaha06:52
code177here's teh solution:06:54
code177model = gtk.ListStore(str, gtk.gdk.Pixbuf) # str is going to be our id field06:54
code177model.append([item['id'], pixbuf_data]) # add to list..06:54
code177gallery = gtk.IconView(model) # make it into an icon view06:54
code177gallery.connect('selection-changed', self.selectThumb, model) # add signal thingy06:54
code177def selectThumb(self, icon_view, model=None):06:54
code177selected = icon_view.get_selected_items()06:54
code177i = selected[0][0]06:54
code177self.awesomeFunction(model[i][0]) # passes id to our function (opens new window)06:54
code177done!06:54
xnt14quit sleep................................xDD06:56
xnt14err06:56
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xnt14damn, I meant to type '/quit06:56
code177heh06:56
xnt14'*'06:56
xnt14:P06:56
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acidjazzany update on the n900's shipping?07:03
* lcuk sleeps07:03
pupnikthere's a highly cogent, brief and informative thread on it on t.m.o07:04
pupnikor wait, not.07:04
acidjazzwhats t.m.o. ?07:04
pupnikgnite lcuk07:04
pupniktalk.maemo.org07:04
acidjazzthe maemo forum?07:04
acidjazzthe "did your n900 ship today" one? thats turned into nonsense hasnt it?07:04
pupniki have the scotti bros acid jazz compilation from 1992 i think07:04
pupnikor 9107:04
pupniklol yes07:04
acidjazznice pupnik07:05
code177damn07:05
code177you guys really went to down on that gigaom.com "review"07:05
code177lol07:05
code177*went to town07:05
code177( http://gigaom.com/2009/10/19/nokia-n900/ )07:06
pupnikcan you translate that to old person talk?07:06
pupnikheh nm07:06
code177lol07:06
acidjazzthe gigaom review was written by an apple fanatik07:06
pupnikty - i would like to see their opinions07:06
acidjazzwho really wanted a nokia iphone07:06
acidjazzSo how does it stack up against the iPhone 3GS? It is a heavier and thicker and missing the sleekness of the Apple device.07:07
acidjazzhow does it stack up against hte iphone? its not a freaking iphone!07:07
acidjazzits got a keyboard!07:07
acidjazzill translate this too :07:07
acidjazzI am not a great fan of the resistive screen technologies and it is no surprise that I found interacting with the phone via touchscreen extremely painfully. Maybe it is my brain, wired to look for an iPhone like functionality, but N900.s touch features are extremely challenging07:07
acidjazzhere he's saying how the n900 is not an iphone07:08
acidjazzand was expecting it to transform into an iphone while playing w/ it07:08
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acidjazzand he has reported that it is still not an iphone nor has it transformed into an iphone while writing his review07:08
code177tbf all his review did is remind me how much i dont want an iphone07:08
acidjazzexactly07:08
code177and really impressed upon me the "toy" aspect of the iphone07:08
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pupnikhe certainly missed most of the points where n900 absolutely stomps iphone07:09
code177i have an ipod touch and it's easily the best bit of tech i've bought in years.. but c'mon. iphone/touch  and n900 are very different animals07:09
pupnikthat hires n900 intro video has absolutely blown everyone away who has seen it on that screen07:09
pupnik10 pixels per millimeter...07:09
zerojayOm Malik is borderline retarded.07:10
zerojayHe spends most of the review saying "it's amazing!" and then 6/10?07:10
pupnikwithin minutes i was making use of the multitasking07:10
pupnik...07:10
pupnikcompletely different workflow07:11
* code177 wishes he had an n90007:11
zerojayHe says almost nothing negative at all but it's clear he worships his iphone.07:11
* code177 is saving his pennies07:11
acidjazzwill amazon have nokia ship it to us? or route through an amazon warehouse?07:12
zerojayI've never heard of that before.07:14
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* dmj7261 is worried about abusing the multitasking ability of the web browser07:20
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zerojaydmj7261: There's nothing to worry about at all then.07:21
dmj7261I've abused this horribly on my netbook.07:21
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acidjazzwhat opening 100000 windows?07:22
dmj7261By the way you can run Ubuntu (with compiz)with several pidgin long conversations, a dozen large open office documents, and around a hundred tabs in firefox on a netbook with 1GB ram07:23
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dmj7261That's not my typical number of tabs but I have used that many before07:23
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zerojayI don't know why anyone would want more than a few tabs open in Firefox at a time anyways.07:23
dmj7261Short term bookmarks.  I'm hoping that I won't carry over those habits to the n90007:24
SolarionI end up having a bunch of tabs open07:24
SolarionVarious threads that I've just left hanging until I get a chance to get back to 'em07:25
Solarionn807:25
zerojayI don't think I've ever gone past 8.07:25
dmj7261That's what I do to.07:25
Proteous8? amature07:26
Proteouswhen the tabs on my tab bar get to small I just open up a new window07:26
zerojayOnly ever active in maybe 3 at a time. If I have 8 its just because I've been lazy about closing them.07:27
Proteousit's like a breadcrumb trail07:27
Proteousyou get to some far off land and are like, "WTF how did I get here and how do I get home."07:27
dmj7261Yeah, i tend to have multiple pages branch off from a single page, which I open in new tabs07:27
Proteousand how do I find it again!07:27
zerojayIsn't that what your browser history is for?07:27
Proteousboom, tab trail07:27
Proteousbrowser history is evil07:28
zerojayI think people do shit like that because they just don't realize there are better ways to do things.07:28
dmj7261Just think, now you can do this on a phone!07:28
Proteous!!!07:28
* Proteous explodes07:28
Proteousi'd be happy with a phone that loads webpages in a reasonable time...07:28
zerojayIt does.07:29
dmj7261In all seriousness I probably won't.  That's what my netbook is for.07:29
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pupniknetbook keyboard is more annoying than thumbboard07:29
pupnikback on the A30 here and it is like butter07:30
dmj7261I've typed 50,000 word docs on my netbook, it's comfortable.07:30
dmj7261I'm hoping I'll be able to type well on a thumbboard too.07:30
dmj7261I've never had a phone with qwerty.07:31
* dmj7261 has been turning his nose up at phones for too long.07:32
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pupnikso how is dosbox on n90007:37
tigertworks, but you cannot type :)07:37
tigertlast i tried07:38
pupniki haven't bought a phone yet07:38
pupnikheh ok07:38
tigertbut it ran atleast07:38
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pupnikdo you know the cpu cache info?07:38
tigertnow that developers have devices its likely to improve07:38
pupniki think omap2420 had 16kb data and inst07:38
tigertno, sorry07:38
pupnikiB07:39
tigertwait07:39
pupnikdo you think i should beg for a signed image or wait for the official one07:39
tigert /proc/cpuinfo doesnt say07:39
tigertsigned image?07:39
pupnikwell some folks can get issued individual images under NDA for flashing n900s07:40
tigertah07:40
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code177ok guys07:41
pupnikdo you know if flasher can instruct kernel to boot into console?07:41
tigertno07:41
tigertafaik07:41
code177http://www.mobile-review.com/review/image/nokia/rx51-n900/scr/scr33.jpg <-- anyone know how to get a list to look like this?  (disregarding the images)07:41
pupnikwould be useful07:41
pupnikwith pygtk i assume07:42
code177well that much I have..07:42
tigerttheres serial console but it needs hw07:42
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cotigaohi, does n900 use alsa?07:44
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Stskeepsuses pulseaudio for sure--which alsa can output to?07:46
truother way around.07:47
Stskeepswell both goes.. pulse has dsp plugins i guess07:48
cotigaoStskeeps, i was just wondering if it using the TI's  DASF audio system?07:48
cotigaois it?07:50
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GeneralAntillesAlright, timeless_mbp, pretty sure I'm passing you on Bugzilla reported next karma recalc. :P08:00
tigertmorning, too08:06
code177GeneralAntilles: I don't suppose _you_ know how that list is made, by any chance?08:06
RST38hmourning indeed08:07
GeneralAntillesWhich list?08:07
code177http://www.mobile-review.com/review/image/nokia/rx51-n900/scr/scr33.jpg08:07
RST38hit is described at the site08:07
RST38hdo you mean karma or the screenshot?08:07
GeneralAntillesCodewise or?08:07
code177Yeah - I've been trying to figure this out for a couple of days now.  It doesn't appear to be a treeview with 2 columns, if it is, the styling info is... hard to find.08:08
GeneralAntillesOh, dunno.08:08
code177balls =/08:08
Stskeepsmorning GA08:09
code177Thanks anyway08:09
RST38hcode: it can be owner-drawn08:09
* code177 scratches beard08:09
code177RST38h: I'm afraid youll have to be more specific. I'm new at this whole app development thing :)08:10
RST38hmost toolkits let you draw each list item mnaually08:10
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RST38hwhere you get a callback with rectangle and draw your list entry in that rectangle, in your own code08:11
RST38hthis may be one of these cases08:11
code177Ah. I'm using Python+GTK08:11
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code177Thing is, this type of list seems to be all over the screenshots08:11
code177so i'm figuring there must be some consistency here08:12
code177and therefore there's a specific way of doing this08:12
RST38hjust one place in the system - web bookmarks08:12
code177i'm trying to find some more good example screenshots08:14
tigertask on devel mailing list?08:14
tigertand wait a bit08:14
tigertmaybe the master layout guide has something08:14
* GeneralAntilles likes his blank flickr titles and wishes the sharing plugin would stop insisting on screwing with them.08:15
* RST38h would just like a picasa plugin08:15
tigertGeneralAntilles: you weirdo :)08:16
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GeneralAntillestigert, some things just don't need titling.08:16
tigertheh08:16
code177http://www.mobile-review.com/review/image/nokia/maemo5/scr/themes/themes4.jpg08:16
GeneralAntillesIn those cases, 1857[14357_109512384712847a.jpg isn't any better. ;)08:16
code177http://www.mobile-review.com/review/image/nokia/maemo5/scr/contacts/cont08.jpg <- the phone has it too08:17
code177sorry, contacts08:17
code177and the opposite way: http://www.mobile-review.com/review/image/nokia/maemo5/scr/contacts/cont04.jpg08:17
tigertdarn08:17
GeneralAntillescode177, well, you should be able to grab the theme picker source somewhere.08:17
tigertmissed my next tram by ten seconds08:17
Stskeepswhile typing on the n900 while walking? ;)08:18
* GeneralAntilles hasn't gotten the knack of that yet.08:18
tigertStskeeps: yeah08:18
tigertcommuting is good time for irc08:18
tigertand for listening to soma.fm :)08:19
GeneralAntillesI did learn that children under 21 are no longer allowed in the movie theater downtown after 10 PM when I nearly tripped over the sign, however.08:19
tigerthehehe08:19
tigertnew things you literally bump into! :)08:19
code177GeneralAntilles: Any idea where?08:19
tigert2 mins for tram, luckily08:19
GeneralAntillesThey replaced the arcade with a bar to try to increase business and stay bankruptcy. <_<08:20
tigertcode177: found master layout guide yet?08:20
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tigertcode177: I'll search the wiki too, hold a bit08:20
RST38hGeneral: next year they will have a strip joint there.08:20
* code177 looks08:21
GeneralAntillescode177, maybe here: http://repository.maemo.org/pool/fremantle/free/h/hildon-desktop/08:21
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GeneralAntillesThey'd do better business if they put a McDonalds in.08:21
Stskeepstigert: i rather liked that your tram stops say when the trams are coming08:22
code177Master Layout guide only has design specs =/08:23
code177GeneralAntilles: Yup, hd-theme.c is in there..08:24
code177problem is I don't know C :)08:24
tigertStskeeps: yea its nice08:24
* code177 peruses08:24
tigertcode177: http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide08:25
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: so true08:25
tigertcode177: still looking for that correct section08:25
dmj7261GeneralAntilles: They should've put in a Nokia store :P08:26
code177bah, this file is telling me nothing :(08:26
luke-jrcode177: md5sum it and you'll get a few octets, at least!08:26
* GeneralAntilles doesn't want to argue with a Google employee about Android.08:26
tigertcode177: but, wisget spec and style guide08:26
tigertare the places to starrt from08:26
code177tigert: I checked those, couldn't find anything =/08:27
dmj7261Who knows, maybe the Google employee is a maemo fan.08:27
tigertcode177: yea08:27
* tigert wishes those were in wiki08:27
tigertlinkable08:27
code177Well, there's hd-decor-button.c08:28
code177this is a little more promising08:28
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tigerthmm08:30
GAN900It's time for Talk to implement more agressive thread locking.08:30
code177I wish they were as concerned about telling us how to make these widgets as they are telling us about when the different margin constants should be used08:30
tigertyou want to do the list like in app manager?08:30
GAN900dmj7261, he is, but he's apparently been blinded by Android.08:30
code177knowing when to use HILDON_MARGIN_DOUBLE is useless to me if I have nothing to use it on08:30
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GAN900Android doesn't offer a cure to the fragmentation that's been holding mobile Linux back for years.08:31
GAN900It just perpetuates it.08:31
* code177 flails08:32
thuxGAN900: what fragmentation?08:32
luke-jrthux: support gets hacked together in a branch and never cleaned up for merging to mainline08:33
thuxah08:33
thuxI have hope open gsm drivers to come up now when linux in gsm08:34
thuxlike open wlan drivers came08:34
GAN900thux, notice that there's nothing approaching a standardized mobile Linux platform.08:34
tigertcode177: so tou want a list picker?08:34
tigertthats hildon touch selector, hold on08:34
thuxGAN900: ok i see08:34
GAN900You have Android, webOS, LiMo, Angstrom, Archos, Motorola, etc, etc08:35
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luke-jrGAN900: nor desktop08:35
luke-jrGAN900: that's not a problem08:35
GAN900All going in wildly different directions.08:35
code177Well i dont need to be able to select things, i need them to work as function calls08:35
luke-jrthe problem is the vendors08:35
* code177 looks up hildontouchselector08:35
GAN900luke-jr it's a helluva lot closer.08:35
luke-jrGAN900: not really08:36
luke-jrthere's numerous WMs08:36
GAN900At least you can depend on having X, usually.08:36
luke-jrok, true08:36
luke-jrbut most embedded have X too08:36
luke-jrthese days08:36
GAN900No they don't08:36
luke-jrmost means over 50%08:36
luke-jrso yes08:36
tigertcode177: but you wqant a list in a dialog to select stuff, or what?08:36
luke-jrwhen there's a display involved anyhow08:36
GAN900Android, nope, webOS, nope, LiMo, nope.08:36
luke-jrAndroid doesn't use X?08:37
tigertthats Hildon Touch Selector08:37
tigertin api ref08:37
code177well i dont want it in a dialog08:37
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code177lol08:37
microlithluke-jr: no, custom thinger08:37
luke-jr-.-08:37
code177i just want a list to select! T-T08:37
GAN900luke-jr, you always act like you know this shit then it always turns out you don't.08:37
code177that does look like it though08:37
GAN900Try approaching things with a little less predetermined certainty.08:38
luke-jrGAN900: more like "Google sucks, but they couldn't possibly suck bad enough to try to reinvent X"08:38
luke-jrguess they can08:38
luke-jr:/08:38
* luke-jr is too optimistic?08:38
GAN900thux, all of this means wasted development effort and platform lockin08:38
thuxok08:38
GAN900Since you can't easily port code from one platform to another.08:38
code177crap. touch selector popups up a dialogy sort of box08:39
tigertyes08:39
tigertthats the idea08:39
tigertyou want just the list?08:39
GAN900This is why I get so bothered when I see Android trumpeted as an open platform.08:39
code177just the list08:39
code177lol08:39
GAN900Because open is more than just code.08:39
luke-jrnot really.08:40
thuxbut ain't open phone software will make manufacturers to same situation than pc manufacturers are?08:40
luke-jrif it's open, you're free to port things08:40
GAN900and Android is just sucking valuable development time away from platforms that might offer promise in the long term.08:40
luke-jrthux: there is no open phone software.08:40
GAN900luke-jr, governance.08:40
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GAN900thux, just generic hardware vendors?08:41
GAN900Good!08:41
thuxyes08:41
tigertcode177: just the list is list08:41
luke-jrthux: there is OpenMoko, which failed. and even then it didn't run free on the phone itself.08:41
tigertcode177: sect 5.2 on widget spec08:41
tigertHildon Touch List08:41
thuxnokia would get less profit if hardware vendor08:41
GAN900Mer using Maemo technologies is a platform that could offer that unification.08:41
GAN900thux, good! That means cheaper electronics for consumers.08:42
thuxtrue08:42
thuxbut they probably try to avoid it08:42
luke-jrthux: I personally disagree. I only pay for hardware. They could make a larger profit (from me) by not wasting time writing it.08:42
GAN900A unified platform benefits two people: small manufacturers and consumers.08:43
GAN900As I'm not Nokia, I'd like to see me benefit.08:43
* luke-jr notes the FCC kinda locks out small manufacturers08:43
GAN900-ish08:44
GAN900Smaller08:44
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luke-jr?08:44
GAN900Big business likes the FCC because it helps enforce monopolies.08:44
code177tigert: I'm not finding the reference for it08:44
GAN900Smaller relative to behemoths like Nokia.08:45
GAN900i.e., SmartQ08:45
Stskeepsi'm not 100% sure sq is actually FCC approved08:45
luke-jrSmartQ hasn't put out a phone yet AFAIK08:45
luke-jrnon-phones don't need FCC approval08:45
luke-jror so OpenPandora seems to think08:45
Stskeepswifi? :P08:45
Stskeepswell openpandora ...08:45
luke-jrthey're about to ship w/o FCC08:46
GAN900If a Chinese manufacturer comes out with a similar hardware experience with the same software at a much lower price, then Nokia will have to lower prices to compete.08:46
tigertcode177: hm? in develpe guide link i pasted08:46
thuxcould one make own gsm phone? can you buy all parts?08:46
GAN900WiFi? Bluetooth? They need FCC.08:46
code177ah yeah08:46
tigertcode177: in the forum nokia section08:46
tigertcode177: widget spec link08:46
code177i wonde rhow all this translates into python08:46
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luke-jrGAN900: OpenPandora thinks not. see their blog08:46
tigertunfortunately its a pdf08:46
GAN900thux, yes.08:47
code177ok.. if it's in here.. then it must be in the hildon reference somewhere08:47
luke-jrthux: make? possibly; operate? not w/o FCC approval08:47
thuxok08:47
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GAN900thux, unless you buy a blockbox gsm modem that has approval.08:48
thuxso we will not see home build phones like we have home build pc08:48
luke-jrGAN900: that's because the "blockbox" is itself a complete phone08:49
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code177tigert: thanks for your help! I'm going to look through the reference tomorrow morning and see if i can figure out how it works08:49
GAN900Stupid Fremantle text input.08:49
code177and now i'm going to sleep08:49
code177night all!08:49
tigertcode177: pymaemo.garage.maemo.org might have some?08:49
GAN900luke-jr, right.08:49
tigertcode177: good luck08:53
tigertif you dont figure it out, ask on the devel list for more pointers08:53
timeless_mbpcode177: so... having watched the bookmarks ui dev change it, that's basically rows with boxes08:59
timeless_mbproughly08:59
timeless_mbpit's not interesting, and it isn't owner drawn08:59
timeless_mbptrees fwiw, are incredibly expensive08:59
timeless_mbpso it's probably a list instead08:59
timeless_mbpoh, and sadly, it has an obscene amount of padding floating around09:03
timeless_mbpwhich is why we were playing in the first place09:03
* timeless_mbp curses tigert and all of his friends ;-)09:03
* timeless_mbp takes a moment to laugh at someone who wrote a string09:05
timeless_mbp"%d tasks undone"09:05
timeless_mbpyeah, that's a clever string... ... ...09:05
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tigerttimeless_mbp: padding exists for the days you actually use it with fingers09:09
tigertwhich is, every day :)09:10
tigertunless you think its some PDA09:10
tigertand try to use it with the stylus09:10
tigert(which I lost in april or so and havent missed09:10
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tigert)09:10
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Mouseyampache09:12
Mouseyoops09:12
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timeless_mbppadding isn't as useful when rows are finger tall and tapping anywhere selects them09:16
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tigertwhat do you mean?09:17
tigertwhat padding are you talking about?09:18
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timeless_mbpthe horizontal padding to the left of the thumbnail in bookmarks09:24
timeless_mbpand the horizontal padding at the right edge of bookmarks09:24
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timeless_mbpn.b. this is mostly an issue for portrait mode09:25
* timeless_mbp won't fight about landscape09:25
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dmj7261I found the blender thread amusing.09:26
timeless_mbpfunny or depressing?09:27
* timeless_mbp frowns09:27
dmj7261My suitemates and I had been joking about how that was exactly the kind of desktop app not to port.09:27
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dmj7261Is thee keyboard ui open?09:28
Corsachmhm, during the “optification” pre-talks, did someone asked debian people (especially dpkg and policy people) about it? I know that too much people involved clutters the debates, but they would have had quite some ideas about what's possible to do with the tools. Seeing the maemo-optify stuff scares me a little, I have to admit :/09:29
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suihkulokkidmj7261: the keyboard ui is open whenever you slide it it out09:32
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dmj7261no the on screen keyboard09:33
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Stskeepsdmj7261: there's some pretty good virtual example keyboards09:34
timeless_mbpsuihkulokki: open tends to mean open source09:35
timeless_mbpin that context09:36
timeless_mbpCorsac: so...09:36
dmj7261yeah,as incanI make improvements to it.09:36
timeless_mbpthe optification talks came very late09:36
timeless_mbpdmj7261: the ui is pluggable09:36
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timeless_mbpso you can replace the keyboard09:36
dmj7261oh good09:36
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Corsactimeless_mbp: yeah I don't want to (re)open the pandora's pox, I seem to recall it was a bit painfull (and god, I'm subscribed to debian-devel, I know that kind of threads :)09:43
MeizirkkiHow can i change my Maemo wiki account password?09:43
timeless_mbpCorsac: mostly opt was because they eventually realized "oh no, people will run out of space installing basic apps"09:43
timeless_mbpMeizirkki: is that your garage password?09:44
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Meizirkkiyes, i think09:44
Corsactimeless_mbp: tbh my initial impression was “why not mounting usr from the 32G card”09:44
Corsacbut I didn't read the thread09:45
timeless_mbpCorsac: i tried09:45
timeless_mbpi bricked a device trying09:45
Corsacduh09:45
timeless_mbpthe short answer is that the 32g volume mounts too late09:45
timeless_mbpat least assuming i didn't screw something up in my attempt09:45
Lupubricked? can't you flash it?09:46
timeless_mbpoh, not technically bricked09:46
timeless_mbpyeah we reflashed it09:46
timeless_mbpbut it didn't boot properly09:46
LupuAlright.09:46
timeless_mbpso effectively a brick09:46
Corsachmhm, I know there are ongoing discussions about deprecating supporting /usr not on the same volume as /, but I didn't know it was already problematic09:46
LupuBricked means undecoverable :)09:46
timeless_mbpLupu: yeah yeah09:47
Corsacyeah but for an user it's the same09:47
timeless_mbpbut "broke" doesn't sound anywhere near as exciting09:47
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Lupuhehe09:47
Corsacit's not really part of a good user experience :)09:47
LupuI'd say 'rolled down stairs and over the neighbors dog' sounds even more exciting, but...09:47
timeless_mbpthis is finland09:47
timeless_mbpwe rarely notice we have neighbors09:47
LupuGood answer. :)09:48
timeless_mbpand you'd want a possessive somewhere09:48
timeless_mbpunless neighbors is a breed09:48
Corsactimeless_mbp: and mounting /opt from the card wasn't possible?09:48
Corsac(instead of using a symlink)09:48
dmj7261Corsac: your n900 is broke?09:48
Corsacdmj7261: my n900 doesn't exist09:48
Corsac:)09:48
LupuI couldn't decided if it was singular or plural(neighbor's vs neighbors'), but I guess the latter would be even more exciting.09:48
Lupus/decided/decide/09:49
infobotLupu meant: I couldn't decide if it was singular or plural(neighbor's vs neighbors'), but I guess the latter would be even more exciting.09:49
dmj7261I meant timeless_mbp09:49
timeless_mbpLupu: in finland, most people live alone ;-)09:49
Corsacdmj7261: I'm just trying to answer some questions about optify with my debian experience, and I know that replacing a folder by a symlink is not really something we usually do, especially with so much packages involved :)09:49
timeless_mbpdmj7261: 'my n900 broke' is so passive09:49
timeless_mbpyou make it sound like there's no blame involved09:49
timeless_mbpor that i owned it09:49
Corsac“i threw my n900 in the stairs”09:50
timeless_mbpmore like i borrowed someone else's and broke it for them, then returned it09:50
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timeless_mbpCorsac: s/in/down/ || s/in the stairs/into the stairwell/09:50
dmj7261And reflashing doesn't fix those sorts of issues?09:50
timeless_mbpit did09:50
LupuIs there really a grammar natzi bot in here?09:51
timeless_mbpwhich is why they were right that i abused the verb '[to]brick'09:51
dmj7261oh okay, "bricked" sounds like you fryed the chips09:51
timeless_mbpLupu: there are really a number of people who benefit from corrections to English09:51
Corsacdefinitely09:51
dmj7261hail grammar?09:51
Luputimeless_mbp: Yeah, but it should be a little more forgiving before morning coffee...09:52
timeless_mbpfryed s/fryed/fried/09:52
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Corsac(I'm even fine with french grammar nazis, so I really don't have problems with english grammar ones)09:52
timeless_mbpLupu: it's nearly 10am09:52
LupuExactly!09:52
timeless_mbp...09:52
Corsacit's nearly 9!09:52
* timeless_mbp looks for the "make me breakfast" button09:52
* timeless_mbp can't find it on the n900 keypad09:53
Stskeepswww.pizza.fi?09:53
timeless_mbppizza is not breakfast09:53
dmj7261it's nearly 2!09:53
timeless_mbpwww.east.fi09:53
timeless_mbperr09:53
timeless_mbpwww.eat.fi09:53
LupuIt's not a button, but a command: http://xkcd.com/149/09:53
timeless_mbpclearly i type east much more often than eat09:53
dmj7261why is it that firefox gives me good things when I type in "crap"?09:54
Corsacbecause firefox sucks09:54
timeless_mbpdmj7261: turn off safe search?09:55
dmj7261no, it just gives me Cory Doctorow's blog when I type "crap"09:55
dmj7261I just find it amusing09:56
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dragornisn't his blog 'craphound'?10:02
wazdmornin maemo10:02
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Stskeepsmorning wazd10:02
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mgedminmy n900 is very slow10:08
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timeless_mbpmgedmin: i presume i don't want to ask what you did to it10:13
mgedminnothing!10:13
mgedminafaict it's swapping10:13
mgedminthe largest process is browserd at 20 megs rss10:14
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mgedminless than 200 megs of swap space used10:14
mgedminokay, it's fast again10:15
mgedminthe apparent slowness, I wildly guess, was the task switcher ui code being swapped out10:15
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mgedminit is irritating when you tap on an app thumbnail and nothing happens10:15
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mgedminso you keep tapping until something happens, and that takes maybe 10 seconds10:16
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tigertmgedmin: you got lotsa stuff running?10:28
tigertor is browser being slow?10:28
mgedminnope, one xterm, one browser window10:29
mgedmina few applets10:29
tigertweird indeed10:29
dmj7261what applets/web page?10:29
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mgedminapplets: facebook, personal gprs monitor, personal ip address, load-applet, brightness applet, pc connectivity applet10:29
mgedminweb page: google reader10:29
mgedmin(mobile version)10:29
tigertcould be javascript10:29
mgedminprobably is10:30
mgedminyesterday was worse10:30
tigerttry lite.facebook.com btw10:30
tigert<310:30
tigertit rocks10:30
mgedminthen I realized I kept a background window running a very javascript-heavy app10:30
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mgedminthat brings my desktop firefox down on its knees10:30
mgedminhmm10:30
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dmj7261hopefully microB will be updated to 3.5 sometime10:30
suihkulokkidmj7261: try typing "about:" in microB10:31
vesatbh try rebooting. i've had problems with weird slowdowns after crashes that get fixed with a reboot10:32
timeless_mbpdmj7261: um10:32
timeless_mbpwe're not going to 3.510:32
dmj7261I don't have an n90010:32
timeless_mbpwe're moving to a 3.6 relative10:32
dmj7261ah10:32
dmj7261so long as it goes to a faster version10:33
timeless_mbpwe're somewhere roughly newer than 3.510:33
timeless_mbpbut sadly, not a safe point10:33
dmj72613.0 wass very slow10:33
timeless_mbpatm, we're blocked because the idiots @ nokia maps decided to use a plugin api that was deprecated before Firefox 1.0 was released10:33
dmj7261??10:34
timeless_mbpmozilla.org finally removed that api post 3.510:34
dmj7261ah10:34
timeless_mbpkinda a problem for updating to the version we want10:34
qwerty12_N810timeless_mbp: Update anyway, Ovi Maps sucks10:34
timeless_mbpsince it means maps doesn't work at all10:34
timeless_mbpqwerty12_N810: this isn't ovi maps, it's nokia maps: )10:35
mgedminthere's an interesting failure mode where web pages stop reacting to clicks10:35
timeless_mbp(please don't ask me what the difference is)10:35
dmj7261Couldn't maps be fixed?10:35
cosmohey, maemo 5's idle plugin _does_ support sending messages10:35
tigerttimeless_mbp: you still scale the microb logo in the about page :)10:35
qwerty12_N810timeless_mbp: Ah, well, I haven't come across Nokia Maps :p10:35
timeless_mbptigert: um10:35
cosmosomeone said yesterday that it can't10:35
* timeless_mbp grumbles10:36
timeless_mbptigert: so...10:36
timeless_mbplast night i turned on an n90010:36
tigerttimeless_mbp: minor issue :)10:36
timeless_mbpthis morning i turned to it, and discovered that it was at the "pin please screen"10:36
tigerttimeless_mbp: i keep seeing a freezing url bar lately :/10:36
Xisdibiktimeless: i wish i turned on a n900 last night10:36
Xisdibik;(10:36
timeless_mbptigert: so... please explain the scaling10:37
qwerty12_N810Xisdibik: Instead, you get to hear about me and some 300+ other people using their N900s!10:37
timeless_mbpare you saying the size of the picture doesn't match the size of the html container?10:37
Xisdibiki know, its like a wetdream... only a nightmare10:37
tigerttimeless_mbp: looks like the logo image is blurry10:37
tigertand also the about page renders it in different size that it is10:38
tigertso yes it seems10:38
timeless_mbptigert: load about:logo10:38
tigertyeah10:38
timeless_mbpthat'll show you the native size10:38
timeless_mbpactually10:38
mgedminso, with only one app running (xterm), should my memory usage be 240 megs of ram + 120 megs of swap?10:38
mgedminshame that busybox free doesn't show the size of the cache10:39
timeless_mbpif you're lazy, you can "Save Page" and then check the source :)10:39
tigertsee how the letters are distorted in about page10:39
timeless_mbptigert: so..10:39
timeless_mbpit's hard to know if that's because the image has the wrong bits10:40
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timeless_mbpor if it's because the page happens to get an unfortunate zoom level10:40
mgedmintop says cache is 35 megs10:40
tigertwrong bits?10:40
tigertthe zoom might be the issue10:40
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tigertactually10:41
tigertactually10:41
tigertzooming it is not10:41
tigertsince zooming doesnt change it10:41
tigertbut its a minor issu10:41
tigerte10:41
* RST38h moos10:41
tigertmost people never see about:10:41
* mgedmin feeds RST38h some grass10:41
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RST38hTHAT grass or just grass?10:42
timeless_mbptigert: ok10:42
timeless_mbpthe html file has <img height=10510:42
timeless_mbpsince the image is 115 px tall10:43
timeless_mbpthat's indeed incredibly stupid :)10:43
timeless_mbpgood catch10:43
timeless_mbpis there a bug filed?10:43
Passeliin maemo 5, is there way to ask user if he/she wants to delete application data also?10:43
Passeliwhen removing application10:43
RST38hin postrm...10:43
timeless_mbpPasseli: in short, no10:43
timeless_mbpbecause you don't necessarily have X11 when an app is removed10:44
RST38hPasseli: that is how timeless usually says "you are not supposed to"10:44
timeless_mbpso trying to use X11 will cause removal to do bad things if it isn't present10:44
RST38hPasseli: But you can, if you are careful10:44
timeless_mbpyeah, you can, but, odds are you'll get it wrong10:44
RST38hAlso, you always have X11, you just may not be able to physically click the screen (when removing app over ssh connection remotely)10:45
timeless_mbpwhat linux should have is a way for apps to register their data file paths10:45
Passeliwe used maemo-confirm-text in diablo at postrm, but it works differently in maemo 510:45
timeless_mbpRST38h: not true10:45
RST38hPasseli: If you can avoid it, please do avoid it10:45
timeless_mbpit's possible for X11 to not be running10:45
JaffaMorning, all10:46
timeless_mbphi Jaffa10:46
PasseliRST38h: so is the current policy to leave app data on device when removing app thru app manager?10:46
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timeless_mbpPasseli: a better approach is to create a special package which is labeled as {My Application Data}10:46
timeless_mbpwhere the description makes it clear that it's the user's actual created content10:47
timeless_mbpif the user chooses to remove *that* package, so be it :)10:47
mgedminI've never seen that approach done anywhere by anyone10:47
* timeless_mbp neither10:48
mgedminmost apps just leave data as is10:48
timeless_mbpbut it's better than a dialog :)10:48
mgedminif the data lives in a user-accessible directory (i.e. under MyDocs), then the user can delete it herself10:48
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mgedminI've seen some debian packages ask *on installation time* whether application data should be purged when you remove the package10:51
RST38hPasseli: I think most apps do not remove user data when you demove them with dpkg -r, but remove all the data when you do dpkg -P (purge)10:51
mgedminI can't say I liked that approach10:51
timeless_mbpoh that makes sense10:51
RST38hPasseli: As far as I know, App Manager does -r but not -P10:51
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timeless_mbpsince the user has no idea if they like the data they're creating at that point10:51
mgedmin"um, I dunno... ask me when I actually have some data"10:51
timeless_mbpand won't remember by the time they go to remove i10:51
timeless_mbpt10:51
timeless_mbpmgedmin++10:51
RST38hPasseli: So, it feels appropriate (although somewhat wrong) not to remove user data, if you can't show the dialog10:52
RST38hPasseli: But provide a way to purge it with dpkg -P10:52
* timeless_mbp frowns10:52
timeless_mbpdoes hildon-<something> support .desktop files under ~ ?10:53
* timeless_mbp assumes hildon gets that wrong too10:53
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Mouseyand with that...11:03
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mgedminRST38h: dpkg --purge is for configuration files, not for app data11:29
mihuHm, how long does it usually take to create a bugzilla account on maemor.org?11:29
RST38hmgedminL: Oh. But doesn't ~/.appname count as a config file?11:30
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mgedminno, only files under /etc11:32
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matmohi all. How can I check karma points without visiting every page in profiles?11:33
matmo(my points)11:33
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frals~karma11:34
infobotfrals has neutral karma11:34
Stskeepsmaemo.org/profile/view/username?11:34
X-Fadematmo: https://maemo.org/profile/view/11:34
fralswrong one i guess ;D11:34
matmoX-Fade: error 404 on that page11:34
X-Fadematmo: With your username at the end.11:34
matmook, one sec11:34
X-FadeOr just click on your name in the top right corner ;)11:35
matmogot it but "karma" not listed11:35
mgedminI think matmo wants https://maemo.org/profile/list/11:36
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matmohmmm, how can I be a member for 2 yrs and have no karma? Rhetorical question, I must have missed something somewhere. Drat. Double drat considering nearly everything I do is Maemo related (just not very public)11:39
mgedminmatmo: have you linked your email addresses etc. in your garage profile?11:40
mgedmins/garage/maemo.org/11:40
infobotmgedmin meant: matmo: have you linked your email addresses etc. in your maemo.org profile?11:40
matmoprobably not :-( Oh well, have to wait until prices fall within the range I can afford/ justify. Thanks for replies.11:41
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vivainioanyone using finger scrolling w/ qt on diablo?11:48
vivainioI'm trying to make this happen with QTextBrowser, with bad results11:48
vivainioshould it work in emulator also?11:49
matmolol, I am linked-in, karma: 67, bad boy!11:51
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RST38hmatmo: Start a few t.m.o threads about how N900 is worse than iPhone, and you are in business!11:53
mihuAh, spamfilter ate my the bugzilla registration mail. Never mind...11:55
tbfRST38h: matmo: i am sure nokia's product designers will listen carefully ;-)11:55
matmoRST38h: ha, haaa... nope, couldn't do that, never even held one and I would feel like a hypocrite. I just have to accept the fact I missed the boat. A few days weeping and I will recover :-)11:57
tbfmatmo: next device, next chance :-D11:57
tbfmatmo: but now start blogging, and spaming in talk.maemo.org :-D11:58
mgedminmatmo: start fixing apps in extras!11:58
mgedmincan karma be traded?  I'd give a lot for working iptables in fremantle11:58
tbftoo bad that garage commits don't give karma.11:59
JaffaYay! Hermes is creating "birthday-only" contacts now. (Optionally)11:59
tbfbut guess that's to prevent from nokian's and contractors gaining karma11:59
Jaffatbf: Nokians and contractors can get karma.11:59
RST38hWell Nokians still gain shitloads of karma12:00
RST38hSo, that is not the reason12:00
Jaffatbf: Garage project activity *did* earn karma in the past.12:00
tbfJaffa: yes, but they should not get by their day job12:00
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Stskeepswhy not? :P12:00
JaffaIt could be either a) I'm misremembering; b) it's broken12:00
tbfStskeeps: cause we paid for commiting stuff to garage?12:00
SpeedEvilmatmo: there is a way to reduce sticker shock to ~360 for those in the UK - see 'haff''s post on maemo.org12:00
tbf*we get12:00
matmotbf: I will plan ahead for the N1000 :-)12:01
* RST38h is looking at the new Atom-based phone proto12:01
matmoSpeedEvil: thank for the tip, I will check it out.12:01
mgedminSpeedEvil: you know these things, what are they called, URLs?12:01
RST38hRendered of course, not the real thing :)12:01
RST38hLooks like a cross of iPhone and N90012:02
SpeedEvilmgedmin: my browser crashed12:03
mgedminouch12:03
SpeedEvilmgedmin: So ratehre than wait the couple of minutes it'll take to restart, at which time matmo may have wandered off...12:04
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SpeedEvil http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31561&page=14 - a couple of posts back12:05
mgedminchromium: I'm not afraid to close my last browser window any more12:08
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tigerthmm12:10
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SpeedEvilyeah - well 200ish tabs open, and it was oomkilling on startup12:11
matmoSpeedEvil: thanks for the link, very useful. I also find prices tend to fall off after a month or two so I will resist the urge for as long as I can ;-)12:12
timeless_mbptbf: so...12:13
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timeless_mbprewarding nokians for committing publicly12:13
timeless_mbpinstead of committing privately12:13
SpeedEvilI don't think they're going to fall _that_ far.12:13
timeless_mbpis probably valualbe12:13
SpeedEvil(but it may not work)12:14
timeless_mbpthat said, i don't think nokians generally eat slots from people12:14
timeless_mbpe.g. nokians were not sponsored to maemo summit by maemo.org12:14
timeless_mbp(speaking as someone who was not paid by nokia or maemo.org to go...)12:14
timeless_mbpnokians were not supposed to take devices from the 300 pile there either12:14
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timeless_mbpand nokians generally can purchase devices internally, so if there's a pool of purchasable devices on a first come first serve basis, it's unlikely nokians will eat from it12:15
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timeless_mbpabout the only things we consume are tshirts and chocolate12:15
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timeless_mbp(and there wasn't much in the way of chocolate)12:15
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JaffaAnd most Nokians aren't committing to garage.maemo.org in their day jobs12:17
Jaffa*and* there's obviously not an enormous skew to Nokians given that the front page has *way* more community peeps than Nokians12:17
* timeless_mbp nods12:18
timeless_mbpi remember quim and i from the top list12:18
timeless_mbpi don't remember many others12:18
timeless_mbpin fact, we're the only 2 in the top set12:19
timeless_mbpmy karma is from filing bugs, and i would have filed them whether or not i worked for nokia12:19
tbftimeless_mbp: hmm. that's actually a good point.12:19
timeless_mbpi have a whole bunch of other bugs i need to file too12:19
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RST38hThe list: http://maemo.org/profile/list/12:20
timeless_mbp2, 1, 1, 2, 1, 112:21
timeless_mbpnice pattern, i wonder how long it repeats :)12:21
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timeless_mbpamusingly, we aren't particularly consistent about our employer's spelling12:21
RST38hLots of Nokia contractors there too12:21
timeless_mbpNokia, Nokia Oyj, Nokia Corporation12:21
timeless_mbpthe contractor case is more interesting12:21
timeless_mbpbut...12:22
timeless_mbpgiven that nokia generally prevents contractors from admitting they exist12:22
timeless_mbpyou really don't want to discourage contractor involvement12:22
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timeless_mbpand contractors often don't get rewarded by nokia/their employer w/ a final product12:22
timeless_mbpand given that they aren't cheap, and that they've probably put quite a lot of effort into it12:23
RST38hNokia Rubber Products12:23
* mgedmin rethinks his plans to become a nokia contractor12:23
timeless_mbpnot letting them have a chance to pick one up is mean12:23
timeless_mbpmgedmin: i've never contracted for nokia12:23
timeless_mbpso i could be wrong12:23
timeless_mbpbut i do know of one case were we specially arranged for a contractor who was leaving us to get a device, because he wasn't going to otherwise12:23
* RST38h will happily disregard lack of freebies when the hourly rate is right12:23
* timeless_mbp underlines leaving12:24
timeless_mbpclearly the rate wasn't good enough :/12:24
timeless_mbp(in this case, he took a job @nokia itself, so...)12:24
timeless_mbpactually12:25
timeless_mbpa couple of people aren't listing their employer12:25
guysoft42i just got xvnc4viewer debian package compiled in maemo. i need to tweak a few things in the rules and it should be uploadable12:25
timeless_mbpi believe nix_nix is a nokian12:25
wazdRST38h: heya12:25
guysoft42qwerty12_N810, is there a procedure how to upload new source packages to exrtas?12:25
timeless_mbpguysoft42: historically we've had vnc packages12:25
timeless_mbphave you looked to see what happened to their maintainers?12:26
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Jaffaguysoft42: http://wiki.maemo.org/Uploading_to_Extras12:26
timeless_mbp(not saying that you shouldn't do it, just...)12:26
CorsacDisponibilité: En stock chez notre fournisseur - 10 Jours12:26
Corsacwoouh12:26
timeless_mbpCorsac: we're shipping our product?12:26
Corsac€554,99 though12:26
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guysoft42timeless, ist a separate vnc package. its not the same source.. and i like it, its much faster and lighter than the one currently avilable12:26
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Corsactimeless_mbp: expansys supplier has it12:27
timeless_mbpguysoft42: ok :)12:27
RST38hHurrah12:27
guysoft42i can run it at the moment without packaging.. its usable and nice12:27
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guysoft42the only thing missing is a fullscreen button, but its not mandatory.12:27
guysoft42Jaffa, thanks, ill view it12:27
mgedminfullscreen-turn-off button is more of a necessity, as I've discovered12:28
timeless_mbpmgedmin: as long as ctrl-backspace works :)12:28
mgedminfbreader has 'fullscreen' available from the (diablo 4 style) menus, but once you're fullscreen, you can't access them12:28
RST38hwazd: EHLO!12:28
timeless_mbpmgedmin: the hardware menu key doesn't work?12:29
mgedmindunno, I'll tell you once I solder one on12:29
RST38hmgedmin: That is because it has not yet been adapted for Fremantle12:29
mgedminsudo apt-get install hardware-menu-key12:29
wazdI wonder if Nokia will do something stylish with maemo12:29
timeless_mbpmgedmin: oh12:29
mgedminwazd: you mean maemo 5 isn't stylish enough for you?12:29
timeless_mbpyou mean using the maemo 4 fbreader on maemo 512:29
* timeless_mbp missed that12:30
* guysoft42 sent an invitation request to the admins12:30
wazdmgedmin: I\rquote m talking bout hardware :)12:30
guysoft42are they by any chance ehre?12:30
mgedmintimeless_mbp: yes, since it hasn't been properly fremantleized yet12:30
guysoft42here*12:30
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timeless_mbpmgedmin: does ctrl-backspace work? :)12:30
mgedminhardware-wise the n900 is quite stylish, when compared to previous attempts12:30
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RST38hwazd: You mean the current Maemo5 is not stylish enough?12:30
wazd'12:30
mgedminbut without the preconditioning yeah, it's not exactly a piece of art12:30
wazdcool :)12:30
mgedmintimeless_mbp: yes, ctrl-backspace does work just fine12:31
wazdRST38h: well, maemo 5 can have some tweaks for sure, but I'm talking bout hardware12:31
RST38hwazd: You mean they should make it look even more like iPhone? :)12:31
wazdRST38h: look at 6700 for example, that's a peice of art :)12:31
* mgedmin likes the 660012:31
wazdRST38h: No, Nokia can make outstanding products that doesn't look boring12:32
mgedminthe only nokia phone that's actually pretty12:32
timeless_mbpthere was a company that was going to ship a shiny product and eventually use maemo512:32
timeless_mbpanyone remember it?12:32
timeless_mbpi'd suggest buying theirs if you want shiny12:32
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chrittoI'm having a problem where apt-get update is hanging, trying to connect to repository.maemo.org (both inside and outside of scratchbox). Could this be my own problem, or could the server be down?12:33
wazdRST38h: touchphone design is a tough experience, since you just have screen and the border12:33
rmtSo - what's the fastest scripting language (to start up) with a GUI on Maemo?12:34
rmtI'm thinking that maybe LuaGTK may be a good bet.12:35
RST38hwazd: I am more concerned about holding it horizontally, it is uncomfortable12:35
timeless_mbprmt: zenity12:35
rmttimeless, Yeah, but a little limited. :-P12:35
mgedminick12:35
timeless_mbprmt: i'd go w/ a little buggy12:35
* mgedmin is kinda partial to Python12:35
timeless_mbpand hopefully qwerty12_N810 will fix that for me :)12:35
mgedminhm, maybe I should try creating a small python maemo 5 app and blog about it, raeddit-style12:36
rmtLove Python, but the startup for GUI apps is a bit slow.12:36
mgedminvala?12:36
rmtMight be possible to speed it up, of course..12:37
mgedminthere are some hacks, eg. python-launcher is one name I've heard and plan to investigate some day...12:37
rmtVala's great.. using it already.. but not a scripting language.12:37
SpeedEvilassembler12:37
mgedminwhy is "scripting language" a requirement?12:37
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mgedminI'd think you'd want a high-level language so you could program and not get bogged in all the irrelevant details12:37
rmtMaybe a pre-linked python+gtk executable..12:38
wazdRST38h: oh12:38
mgedminprototype in python, when you find a good design rewrite in c/vala12:38
wazdRST38h: I thought it's good to just lock it with thumb12:39
RST38hwazd: considering using a lanyard, may be easier that way12:39
wazdRST38h: since there are no buttons on the front12:39
tigerthmm12:39
RST38hwazd: you leave fingerprints and obscure the picture12:39
rmtmgedmin, Did that for my image viewer.. worked very well..12:39
* tigert wonders how browsers think someone is "mobile device"?12:39
mgedminawesome12:39
RST38hwazd: Also, both your hands are tied up that way12:39
tigertlike google now uses the mobile search version for N90012:39
suihkulokkitigert: "nokia" in User-agent?12:40
tigertis it just by comparing some list of user agent strings?12:40
RST38htigert: user-agent12:40
tigertthere is no "nokia" there12:40
tigertI realized12:40
rmtSo - scripting language requirement is that I'd like to be able to download+run code (with human security measures at this point)..12:40
tigertit just says "Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux armv7l; en-US; rv:1.9.2a1pre) Gecko/20091012 Firefox/3.5 Maemo Browser 1.5.4.1 RX-51 N900"12:40
suihkulokkimmh ok12:40
wazdRST38h: well, anyway, n900 has pretty spartan look :)12:40
ifreqtigert: well what about maemo as keyword?12:40
tigertbut is there some other method to tell "I'm a mobile browser"?12:40
tigertperhaps12:41
suihkulokkitigert: I think the google default search ends up in the mobile search because the bookmark is linked to there, not because of autodetect12:41
tigertits also funny that google uses an usefully large font in N90012:41
RST38hwazd: It looks exactly like an iPhone, with plastic top, no Button, and twice thicked because of keyboard12:41
tigertwhile its tiny on other phones or by viewing the mobile version with desktop browser12:41
mgedminwell, not exactly like12:42
RST38htigert: Someone at Google has got an N900, no doubt12:42
tigertRST38h: thats what I figured12:42
tigertbecause its sweet12:42
wazdRST38h: it looks like any touchscreen phone)12:42
RST38htigert: Now, if these guys fixed mobile GMail...12:42
* tigert wonders when website design starts to take DPI into account12:42
wazdRST38h: screen on the front :D12:42
RST38hwazd: Yes, all touch screen phones look like iPhone nowadays12:42
tigertthat would be sweet12:42
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wazdRST38h: iphone is not unique in it's look12:42
tigertRST38h: yeah, mobile-anything is in 99% of cases just way too spartan and small for N90012:42
mgedmingoogle reader mobile edition has funky css problems if you use large fonts in microb12:43
RST38hwazd: At least Steve Jobs was smart enough not to include blue LED illumination this time, or we would have REALLY garish phones everywhere12:43
tigerteven for N800/81012:43
mgedminthey tile their icons in a larger image, which shows up very clearly12:43
* tigert wonders if user css would work in microb12:43
RST38hmgedmin: Actually, I feel absolutely fine with Google mobile apps12:43
RST38hmgedmin: Just the right size12:43
suihkulokkiwell, if you want to have a tiny phone with a large touchscreen, you don't have many options on making how the phone will look like12:43
RST38hSorry, that was to tigert12:43
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wazdRST38h: place d-pad instead of button - voi la, it's one of thousand WinMo PPCs before the iphone12:43
tigertthe feature sets are just way spartan12:44
RST38htigert: GMail is only problematic because it *insists* on 240x320 screen size and resizes itself to that12:44
wazdRST38h: like Jam for example12:44
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RST38hwazd: You need way more space for dpad12:44
* mgedmin hates how mobile google reader has no 'like' button12:44
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tigertmobile google search has nice large fonts12:44
* tigert wonders if it is microb hack or google doing this12:44
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RST38hGoogle most likely12:45
wazdRST38h: anyway, iphone is not the first phone with large screen on the front :)12:45
RST38hit is the one everyone copies12:45
mgedminapple does good design12:45
tigertmost mobile versions of sites just assume no javascript, no fun stuff, and small fonts12:46
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tigertwhile the font / clickable element size is the real problem12:46
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tigerteverything works fine, but its just way small in N90012:46
wazdRST38h: you're exagerating :)12:47
tigert"Gmail unfortunately doesnt work in HTML Web Browser device" ??12:48
wazdRST38h: look at the HTC lineup for example12:48
tigertwtf is this just weird translation to finnish or what? :)12:48
wazdRST38h: they have pretty recognizable look12:48
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X-Fadeyerga: ping?12:49
RST38hwazd: And they also look suspiciously like Chinese-copied iPhones =)12:49
wazdRST38h: no they don't :)12:49
RST38hSome don't, true12:49
wazdRST38h: http://blog.phoneslimited.co.uk/files/2009/02/htc-touch-diamond2.jpg12:49
wazdRST38h: http://www.ubergizmo.com/photos/2009/2/htc-touch-pro-2_468.jpg12:50
yergaX-Fade, pong12:51
mgedminthe first one doesn't look all bad, but the os logo in the top-left corner spoils everything12:51
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RST38hwazd: Well, Pro2 looks like a fat iPhone with keyboard12:51
RST38hWhich ironically also describes N900 :)12:51
X-Fadeyerga: So you do see the screenshot widget, but not the buttons?12:51
RST38hDiamond looks different, yes12:52
wazdRST38h: am c'mon :)12:52
yergaX-Fade, I see the two entries for the title and name12:52
wazdRST38h: that's because of screen on the front? :)12:52
yergaX-Fade, but don't the buttons12:52
yergaX-Fade, I have screenshots if you want them12:52
yergaX-Fade, is working in other sections Maemo4, etc.12:53
RST38hwazd: Huge screen, no controls, smooth border around the screen, made of slightly different material12:53
X-Fadeyerga: It is problably a permissions issue. Let me play with that a bit ;)12:53
RST38hrounded corners12:53
yergaX-Fade, ok thanks, not very important problem anyway ;-)12:53
mgedminthe slight bevel around the n900's screen slightly irritates me12:53
wazdRST38h: there are controls on the bottom12:53
X-Fadeyerga: It is!12:53
RST38hwazd: The Button? ;)12:53
mgedminI wish the front surface was totally flat12:53
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wazdRST38h: every single PDA has border around the screen :)12:54
RST38hoh it has got a slider!12:54
RST38hwazd: I will answer in one image: http://dailymobile.se/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/htc-touch-pro2-vs-iphone-3g-01.jpg12:55
RST38hSide view: http://dailymobile.se/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/htc-touch-pro2-vs-iphone-3g-06.jpg12:55
mgedminone of them looks fat12:55
wazdRST38h: and? :)12:55
mgedminyuck12:55
timeless_mbphey12:55
RST38hwazd: Doesn't the left one look like a chinese knockoff of the right one?12:55
X-Fadeyerga: better now?12:55
timeless_mbpis it fn-left to trigger up in regions w/o a hardware up key?12:55
wazdRST38h: absolutely not12:56
RST38hMmm...12:56
tigerttimeless_mbp: something like that12:56
tigerthavent seen a .fi version yet12:56
RST38hMaybe I just have no artistic taste at all12:56
wazdRST38h: 2 different devices with slight similarities12:56
wazdRST38h: like flush screen and... that's all12:56
RST38hBecause to me it looks exactly like a Chinese knockoff of the iPhone12:56
RST38hwazd: rounded corners, flush screen, accented border, controls underneath, same size even12:57
mgedmintimeless_mbp:     key <DOWN>{ type[Group1] = "PC_FN_LEVEL2", symbols[Group1] = [Left,Up] };12:57
mgedmin    key <RGHT>{ type[Group1] = "PC_FN_LEVEL2", symbols[Group1] = [Right,Down] };12:58
mgedminthat should answer your question12:58
timeless_mbpmgedmin: i just changed my hardware keyboard using Text Input to Suomi12:58
wazdRST38h: controls underneath? :D12:58
timeless_mbpempirical testing is easier :)12:58
wazdRST38h: are you kidding? :D12:58
mgedminit's from /usr/share/X11/xkb/symbols/nokia_vndr/rx-5112:58
timeless_mbpthe answer is yes, fn is the modifier12:58
timeless_mbpstupid question12:58
mgedminwhich is a pathname I might want to remember later12:58
RST38hwazd: ok ok I give up :)12:58
timeless_mbpwhere the heck do the keyboard layout names live?12:58
timeless_mbpmgedmin: heh12:58
mgedminhm, /etc/X11/xkb/base.xml maybe?12:59
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wazdRST38h: rounded corners aswell :)12:59
timeless_mbpmgedmin: no12:59
RST38hwazd: hey, I insist on rounded corners being a feature, many HTC phones do not have these12:59
timeless_mbpthe ui shows "English, Nederlands" or something12:59
mgedminthe FreeRunner wins on rounded corners13:00
timeless_mbpbut the xml file uses SLASHes instead of COMMAs13:00
wazdRST38h: yeah, but lots of them had before the iphone13:00
RST38hmgedmin: You have not seen Palm Pre, have you?13:00
mgedminno13:00
yergaX-Fade, the same result13:00
RST38hcheck out the images on the net13:00
X-Fadeyerga: Ok, i'll try to debug this..13:00
mgedminit's not as round as the freerunner13:00
RST38hwazd: BTW, can you point to any pre-iPhone device that looks the same?13:00
yergaX-Fade, ok, thanks!13:01
wazdRST38h: HTC Touch?13:01
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RST38hnope, the original touch looks very differently13:01
RST38hmore like an hPaq really13:02
wazdRST38h: flush screen, rounded corners, controls underneath :D13:02
yergaX-Fade, sorry, it's working in Chrome now, let me clear the cache in Firefox and see13:03
wazdRST38h: I'm not telling that none of the existing phones are copying iPhone, but seriously, most of them don't :)13:03
X-Fadeyerga: it is working now, but there is indeed a bug.13:04
tbfguess you don't have much options for the front of a pure touch screen phone13:04
tbfusers expect you to maximize the touch screen size13:04
mgedminwell, you could put spikes on it13:04
gomiamor.13:04
mgedminwin on originality13:04
mgedminlose on usability and lawsuits13:04
wazdRST38h: they can take some of the usefull trends but no ripping13:04
tbfmgedmin: actually some researchers did something like that13:04
tbfmgedmin: they put microscopic spikes on touch screens to hide fingerprints13:05
timeless_mbptbf: did it work?13:05
tbfmgedmin: the spikes are small enough to make the screen still look glossy13:05
RST38hwazd: it is easier to rip and borrow some of iphone popularity this way13:05
tbfmgedmin: but they are random enough to cloak finger prints13:06
tbftimeless_mbp: according to a news i've read yesterday: yes.13:06
wazdRST38h: I'd rather seriously see some hybrid of E-series design and a touchphone13:06
tbftimeless_mbp: if those guys got a patent, they will be rich, i guess13:06
timeless_mbpdepends on whether people are willing to pay :)13:07
timeless_mbpif all the big companies choose not to buy it :)13:07
RST38hwazd: E70-Touch! :)13:07
tbftimeless_mbp: then some garage company will bring it and become rich :-D13:08
wazdRST38h: hehe :)13:08
timeless_mbpMaemo Garage? :)13:08
tbf:-)13:08
yergaX-Fade, working in Firefox too, thanks!13:08
X-Fadeyerga: Yeah, but this is because I opened up everything ;)13:09
X-Fadeyerga: So it is going to stop working again when I close that.13:09
yergaX-Fade, ah, ok13:09
X-Fadeyerga: But do upload your screenshots, while you can ;)13:10
yergaX-Fade, then I'll let the bug open13:10
wazdRST38h: btw, E70 is a good example of my statement that nokia isn't afraid to make some crazy stuff :)13:10
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yergaX-Fade, ok, you can close the door now, thanks13:13
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Ronaldo38741Is there a better twitter client for the N810 than mauku?13:18
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nnodRonaldo38741: wget?13:23
Ronaldo38741wget13:23
Ronaldo38741The FTP/HTTP downloader?13:23
nnodyeah, you can post form data with it. sorry, it was more of a joke than a legitimate suggestion.13:25
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zerojayHas anyone been able to install mafw-lastfm 0.2-1? Seems broken to me.13:34
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timeless_mbpoh nice13:37
timeless_mbpthe idiots compiled the string right into a .so13:37
* timeless_mbp curses13:37
timeless_mbpok13:38
timeless_mbpwell um13:38
* timeless_mbp sighs13:38
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Ceron^$ apt-cache search boobs13:42
Ceron^liboobs-1-4 - GObject based interface to system-tools-backends - shared library13:42
Ceron^boobs in the repository :o13:42
ifreqboobs in the library13:42
ifreq:P13:42
SpeedEvilNokia 16 GB microSDHC Card MU-44  £75.00 '13:43
Ceron^cheap!13:44
SpeedEvilIs this a 100Mbyte/s card? :)13:44
SpeedEvilOr made of solid osmium?13:44
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Ceron^why buy a nokias own version :p13:44
SpeedEvilYes - I was pointing that out13:44
timeless_mbpCorsac: it helps pay our salaries13:45
rangeCan you preorder that?13:45
timeless_mbpvery very important13:45
SpeedEvil(75 quid = $120 or so)13:45
zerojayWho said boobs?13:45
* zerojay perks up.13:45
SpeedEviltimeless: I bought a 3310, just the other decade!13:45
Arkenklozerojay: liboobs13:45
timeless_mbpSpeedEvil: yeah, see, that so doesn't help13:45
timeless_mbpplease upgrade to buying nokia products annually13:46
timeless_mbpotherwise, you aren't contributing to our annual expenses13:46
SpeedEvilI'm currently in the process of checkout with the n90013:46
SpeedEvilHowever - I expect the order to be cancelled.13:46
SpeedEvilAs I'm abusing discount codes.13:46
timeless_mbphow?13:46
Ceron^http://www.verkkokauppa.com/popups/prodinfo.php?id=2007113:46
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Ceron^SpeedEvil: you ordering from that cashback site?13:47
SpeedEviltimeless: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=351254&postcount=12513:47
ArkenkloI wonder if you stack multiple procentual discounts, if nokia actually sends you money13:47
SpeedEvilCeron^: I am.13:47
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Ceron^SpeedEvil: where are you from?13:48
Ceron^what land13:48
SpeedEvilArkenklo: a n900 + battery = 321.8013:48
SpeedEvilscotland13:48
Ceron^...13:48
SpeedEvilArkenklo: (plus 49.99 cashback)13:48
Ceron^that has to be troll13:48
SpeedEvilwell - it's on my shopping cart, at that figure13:48
Ceron^seriously theyr making a loss on that13:48
SpeedEvilIf they decline it, they decline it.13:49
SpeedEvilBut there is no way I can afford 49913:49
zerojayWhat cashback site?13:49
Ceron^check SpeedEvils link13:49
SpeedEvilsee the above mammo link - topcashback13:49
Ceron^zerojay:13:49
Ceron^does that link work for ppl13:49
SpeedEvilmammo?13:49
Arkenklodoes using this cashback thing involve sending money to anyone in eccess of nokiaG13:49
Ceron^who live in finland :D?13:49
Arkenklo?13:49
vesame =)13:49
SpeedEvilMy keyboard is segueing into the 'boobs' thread.13:50
Ceron^vesa: did you order13:50
SpeedEvilArkenklo: no13:50
Ceron^from cashback=?13:50
ArkenkloI live in sweden, but finland is only a formality13:50
Arkenkloit's actually all sweden13:50
Stskeepshttp://www.maemoproject.com13:50
vesanope =/13:50
Stskeepswhat on earth is that13:50
SpeedEvilI don't know if these deals are available outside the UK, I suspect so.13:50
SpeedEvilgoogle nokia cashback yourcountry I guess13:50
Ceron^its pretty suspicious13:50
Ceron^:(13:50
zerojayStskeeps: wtf13:50
SpeedEvilCeron^: cashback sites do actually exist, and work.13:51
Arkenkloin sweden there's a visa-card you can get that gives you a lowest-price guarantee13:51
* Stskeeps wonders what marketing is up to13:51
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w00tStskeeps: o.O13:51
Arkenkloso if you buy say an n900 for a load ass of money, while it's avaliable cheaper from somewhere else, the _bank_ gives you the difference back13:51
ifreqi would think that here in fi phones should be cheap... but nouuuu same pricing or mayb even more13:51
ifreq:-P13:51
SpeedEvil(and worst-case, I can excersize my rights under the distance selling act to return it)13:51
RST38hStskeeps: more mushrooms!13:51
ifreqn900 here cost 580-6xx euros13:52
Stskeepsview source is even weirder :P13:52
ArkenkloSpeedEvil: yes, but how do you know you'll get your money back?13:52
w00tyeah, I saw13:52
Ceron^ifreq: yeh it sucks13:52
SpeedEvilArkenklo: the websites actually do give people their money back - they are paid by nokia13:52
SpeedEvilArkenklo: and if they do not, I can cancel the contract and return the n90013:52
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ifreqCeron^: no logic on that to be honest :/13:53
ArkenkloSpeedEvil: I beliave you, but I can't figure out how someone can profit on that13:53
VDVsxX-Fade, ping13:53
Arkenklobelieve13:53
Ceron^im abit angry if that cashbacksite works13:54
Ceron^its really unfair :P13:54
RurouniJonesAre N900s available now in the US non-contract?13:54
RurouniJonesI have an unexpected opportunity13:54
SpeedEvilArkenklo: nokia offers cashback to third parties for driving custom to their site13:55
SpeedEvilRurouniJones: you can pre-order13:55
RurouniJonesBugger, no good.13:55
ArkenkloRurouniJones: they're not available anywhere13:55
Stskeepsw00t: up for faking entry into the competition? lp13:55
Stskeeps;p13:55
w00tStskeeps: ...haha13:55
RurouniJonesWhat is the release date?13:55
SpeedEvilRurouniJones: likely a week or two till you can get it13:55
w00tStskeeps: gmta!13:55
ArkenkloRurouniJones: end of this monch13:56
zerojayNokia doesn't do release dates.13:56
Arkenklomonth13:56
Stskeepshttp://maemoproject.com/ is even weirder13:56
RurouniJonesDouble Bugger13:56
Ceron^when is maemo.org going to show os200913:56
SpeedEvilzerojay: But if they did, they'd be the finest release dates in the world.13:56
Ceron^top downloads13:56
_berto_after some hours the combo box in the browser stopped working, has anyone noticed the same problem?13:56
zerojaySpeedEvil: pffft.13:56
VDVsx"Send us your contact info and win N900 or BH-95 headset"lol13:56
SpeedEvil_berto_: combo breaker?13:56
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_berto_SpeedEvil: uh ?13:57
zerojay_berto_: nope.13:57
Arkenklo_berto_: lrn2intrnt13:57
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_berto_i hit the problem a couple of times, but I don't know if there's a deterministic way to reproduce it13:58
SpeedEvilsorry13:58
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* RST38h moos at VDVsx14:01
* VDVsx moo00s back14:02
SpeedEviloops. sales terms and conditions. '9. Title to products and license to software Nokia retains full legal title to products until it has received all amounts due on the ordered products in full. '14:02
RST38hSounds reasonable, albeit redundant14:05
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SpeedEvilSure - however - they can't retain license to GPL products.14:06
SpeedEvilOh.14:06
SpeedEvilUnless they never ship until they are paid.14:06
SpeedEvilWhich I suppose isn't impossible.14:06
RST38hThe statement does not say to which products nokia retains title14:10
RST38hand license14:10
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RST38hSo, the GPLed stuff inside the tablets may well stay GPLed. Of course this has no practical importance :)14:11
SpeedEvilNo.14:11
matmolater duds14:12
matmos/duds/dudes :-)14:12
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mgedminso, my N900 totally oomed at me over lunch14:13
mgedminI had an xterm, modest and two browser windows open14:13
mgedminafter staring at the task switcher screen for 10 minutes I gave up and turned it off14:13
Stskeepsdisable flash?14:13
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Arkenklomgedmin: what, it froze?14:15
zerojaymgedmin: After hearing how you're fucking around with kernel modules, I'm not surprised. I NEVER have these problems.14:15
mgedminso, with htop how do you change the sort order?14:18
mgedminthere's no F6 key on my n90014:18
X-Fademgedmin: esc - 6 ?14:18
mgedminthat's a midnight commander special14:18
mgedminhtop doesn't handle that, I checked14:19
* mgedmin remarks, for reference, that after a fresh boot the n900 eats 119 megs of ram and 0 swap14:19
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hrwmorning14:19
* mgedmin now has memory usage of 152 megs of ram + 42 megs of swap -- after listening to a mp3 or two and running xterm with htop14:19
mgedmincurse avahi14:20
mgedminfor not starting up on boot14:21
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mgedminum, is hildon-status-menu supposed to eat 109M just 5 minutes after boot, or did I discover my memory leak?14:23
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ShadowJKvsz/vsize is a useless measure :)14:24
ShadowJKI think in htop you can just tap the things in xterm14:24
ShadowJKthe menu items at the bottom I mean14:24
mgedminneed a stylus or smaller fingers then14:25
hrwbtw - n900 do not have any button on screen part?14:25
ShadowJKyeah but n900 comes with stylus, right14:25
X-Fadehrw: quake uses the proximity sensor for that ;)14:25
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hrwX-Fade: I do not care about quake - I got used to back/home buttons on n81014:26
X-Fadehrw: Ah, those are all done on the touchscreen now.14:26
X-FadeJust swipe in from the right.14:26
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X-FadeAnd home is just long press on the top left icon.14:27
hrwX-Fade: but how do they work in app which is fullscreen?14:27
ShadowJKoh right, mouse contorl in htop doesn't work through screen..14:27
mgedminyet another way in which screen sucks14:27
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hrwand are there any infos when portrait mode will be available?14:28
mgedminhrw, ctrl+backspace or unfullscreen the app14:28
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SpeedEvilAny progress on if you can recieve IR in any form?14:28
hrwmgedmin: ok14:29
jeremiahYeah, sometimes screen gets in the way14:29
jeremiahI don't like what it does to emacs key bindings for example14:29
* ShadowJK ran out of ptys on his n81014:29
ShadowJKit does something to emacs keybindings?14:29
mgedminthere are only 4 ptys14:29
X-Fadehrw: portrait was announced for this year.14:29
hrwX-Fade: cool14:29
mgedmin"portrait in web browser, hopefully for christmas"14:29
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hrwX-Fade: n900 is phone for me, not tablet14:30
mgedminI don't think any other app will get support for portrait14:30
jeremiahShadowJK: Well, screen hears Ctrl-a as a command, which in emacs is 'go to beginning of line'14:30
* ShadowJK notes the absence of a mention WHICH christmas :D14:30
mgedminjeremiah: I changed screen's prefix to ctrl-b14:30
jeremiahscreen thinks it means 'wait for a command'14:30
ShadowJKah14:30
X-Fadehrw: Most extras apps already support portrait btw ;)14:30
mgedminthe only ctrl-letter that I'm not already using14:30
mgedminmost?14:30
mgedminoptimistic14:30
mgedminsome, yes14:30
jeremiahmgedmin: I tried that once and didn't get it to work - your screen fu is stronger than mine obviously.14:30
SpeedEvilchristmas?14:30
SpeedEvilOooh!14:30
ShadowJKyou need ^a a then?14:30
* SpeedEvil wants a port of http://dropmix.xs4all.nl/rick/Xsnow/14:30
jeremiahShadowJK: I think that means something to screen too14:31
mgedminjeremiah: http://pastey.net/12684414:31
mgedminmakes screen *almost* usable14:31
jeremiahmgedmin: Thanks!14:31
jeremiahSpeedEvil: That is pretty awesome.14:31
jeremiahSnow!14:31
ShadowJK^a^a does, ^a a  seems to suggest according to screen's help that the app would get ^a14:32
ShadowJKforget about xsnow, what about xanthill? ;)14:32
mgedminxsnow doesn't work well with composited desktops, I think14:32
jeremiahShadowJK: Thanks. :)14:32
ShadowJKTHat's a bloody impressive piece of software too, written before Linux even existed, and compiles fine on Linux today14:32
ShadowJKor well, it compiled fine last time I checked, in 2003-ish..14:32
jeremiahLooks like everyone's screen fu is stronger than mine. :/14:32
SpeedEvilShadowJK: It's very simple and yet fun.14:33
chritto_I love how the screenshot on the website shows him running Netscape :)14:33
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SpeedEvilQty/Description: 1 / Nokia N900 (SKU# 002P1Q2) Qty/Description: 1 / Nokia Battery BL-5J (SKU# 02711B5)14:34
SpeedEvilOrder total: £ 321.8014:34
SpeedEvil:)14:34
SpeedEvil(confirmation email)14:34
SpeedEvilNow to see if they honor it.14:35
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* timeless grumbles14:36
RurouniJonesAre there any hardware differences between the US, EU and UK (If there is a specific one) versions of the N900? Just keyboard layout?14:36
jeremiahSpeedEvil: So a new N900 and a battery for 321 Euros? Good deal14:36
SpeedEviljeremiah: pounds14:37
SpeedEviljeremiah: but there is 49.99 cashback on that too14:37
jeremiahSorry, that is a pounds symbol14:37
jeremiahright14:37
jeremiahI am thick.14:37
fralsstill a good deal ^^14:37
jeremiahStill a good deal indeed14:37
SpeedEvilYes - but it may not be approved.14:37
SpeedEvilBut - if it's much more expensive, I can't afford it - so why not.14:37
ShadowJKRurouniJones, there's no "EU" version14:37
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RurouniJonesOk ok, so is there a hardware difference between US and non US versions that will be sold in Europe?14:38
nnodhttp://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2269114:38
nnodN900 battery, $3.72!14:38
chritto_good luck SpeedEvil :)14:38
RST38hnnod: Chinese made?14:38
ShadowJKnnod, I hope you've insured your N900 against idiocy :)14:39
nnodi bought a similar one for the N810, and they have about 1/3 the capacity of the official ones14:39
ShadowJKlol14:39
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mgedminbut do they cost 1/3 the price?14:39
RurouniJonesHoly hell, there are a lot of iPhone ripoffs on that site judging by the thumbnails :)14:40
ShadowJKI wouldn't call them ripoffs14:40
nnodShadowJK: true, especially since one of the cheap N810 batteries I bought started smoking in my N810. the back panel was hot to touch and burned my finger. luckily there was no permanent damage apart from a burnt smell that still persists14:40
ShadowJKThey run windows mobile is something even worse, and come with non-iphone features like java and memory cards..14:40
SpeedEvilShadowJK: Wait till mer gets good enough.14:41
ShadowJKnnod, the fumes are toxic :-)14:41
nnodthe good thing is dealextreme is great about sending you new stuff when it's defective14:41
SpeedEvilnnod: indeed.14:41
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SpeedEvilI want to build a dealextreme hoverboard/helicopter. I wonder if they'd sponsor me.14:41
SpeedEvil150* http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15230 - 20Kg of batteries, and a whole lot of duct tape.14:42
ShadowJKever noticed that they don't have anything big or heavy ;-)14:42
nnodSpeedEvil: i guess it's too late for the Nokia PUSH thing, you could control the helicopter with the N90014:42
SpeedEvilnnod: damn that would be cool. (though illegal in the UK alas)14:43
SpeedEvil(as it's quite capable of free flight)14:43
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ShadowJKrofl at that battery, just noticed one of the comments saying it's hard to spot the difference between original and fake... I guess they didn't notice the absence of authentication code?14:43
SpeedEvilYeah - you have to buy with care.14:44
SpeedEvilScreen protectors OTOH - I find work just fine14:44
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ShadowJKEven the mugen batteries that are highly regarded on t.m.o have uprated capacity in the marketing :-)14:45
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nnodi built my own N800 replacement battery by taking the cell out of this http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.8436 and soldering an old N800 battery protection circuit to it14:46
nnodit works pretty well14:46
zerojayN900i would14:47
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zerojayN900i wouldn't fuck with batteries.14:47
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tigertdefine "pretty well"?14:48
tigert"doesnt burst into flames too often"? :)14:48
ShadowJKnnod, what did you find inside the N800 battery...14:48
nnodtigert: heh, that and it gets about 10 hours of gps tracking14:49
ShadowJKgot pics?14:49
nnodShadowJK: it was just a lithium polymer cell in that flexible metallic shield, nothing special14:50
ShadowJKOh I was just wondering what circuit you soldered onto it14:50
X-FadeProbably just terminals, ntc for temp and a fuse.14:51
nnodShadowJK: the circuit looks like a protection circuit14:51
nnodthe end result was superior to the supposedly 1800 mAh Mugen cells14:53
ShadowJKI'd expect the genuine nokia battery to have a strip running along the side, and a resistor connected to the middle pin.. I wouldn't expect any circuits inside14:53
ShadowJKoh the 1800mAh mugens are 1200mAh :-)14:53
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ShadowJKAtleast that's what mine was. It even announced itself as 1200mAh through the third pin14:53
nnodShadowJK: how do you see the capacity?14:54
ShadowJKWell, the capacity reported by the battery itself can be seen with: lshal|grep battery.reporting.design14:54
nnodcool, i didn't know that14:55
SpeedEvilShadowJK: and it can't do that if there is no other circuitry inside other than a thermistor14:55
ShadowJKit's not a thermistor afaik14:55
SpeedEvilyes, it's a battery protection chip14:56
SpeedEvilprobably a couple14:56
SpeedEvilit's not just a resistor14:56
SpeedEvil(if it's reporting stuff)14:56
nnodyeah i think only bigger laptop batteries have thermisters, atleast i've never found them in smaller packs for phones and stuff14:57
nomismhm, did anyone within the developer program get feedback from the people we're supposed to send a mail to?14:57
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, I think they just use a different resistor to indicate different design capacities14:58
ShadowJKthe reported design capacity varies from boot to boot, probably temperature variation14:58
ShadowJKThe device itself has a temperature sensor near the battery though14:59
nnoddoes anyone have a bluetooth gps and n900 and a wifi connection to test a bug?14:59
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SpeedEvilhmm15:00
mgedminnomis: no15:00
SpeedEviloops, in that case.15:00
SpeedEvilhadn't thought of that15:01
mgedminnnod: two out of three15:01
mgedminI have a bluetooth gps, but it is ~800 km from my current location15:01
nnodmgedmin: hmm...iirc bluetooth needs to be within 10m :)15:01
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nomismgedmin: ok, thanks.15:01
mgedminI suppose the Forum Nokia web shop doesn't handle preordering, and I expect our discounts to be approved after the N900 actually ships15:02
nomismgedmin: possible.15:03
nomisstill a "we have received your application, here's what will happen" would be nice.15:03
mgedminyes15:04
ShadowJKhm15:05
ShadowJKI wonder if a thermal fuze would sow up on xray15:05
SpeedEvilShadowJK: it shows up better on stanley knife.15:05
mgedminlithium cells are opaque to xrays, aren't they?15:05
ShadowJKsure...15:05
SpeedEvilmgedmin: probably moderately.15:05
* ShadowJK notices he hasn't checked the scratchcode on his N800 battery15:06
SpeedEvilShadowJK: Three cherries, and you win a car!15:07
SpeedEvilActually - that would be a cunning promotion.15:07
RST38hhttp://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/10/20/adam_curtis_afghanistan_interview/ <=== What you probably didn't know about .AF15:07
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, to raise awareness of the code, yeah15:07
SpeedEvilEncourage users to purchase legit bats. And how to work out the scrachcode15:07
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ShadowJKAlso if you get just the hologram or no hologram at all, you know the merchant screwed you over and sent you either a fake or an ancient battery15:08
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nnodwhat is this scratchcode?15:10
SpeedEvilIt's a scratch-off panel on the battery15:10
ShadowJKAll original Nokia batteries have a hologram, the hologram has this black strip on it15:10
SpeedEvilthat you can use to verify the authenticity15:10
mgedminyou scratch the battery and sniff -- if you smell burning, the battery's a dud15:10
ShadowJKyou can scratch the black, and it reveals a 20 digit code15:10
ShadowJKyou enter this code into a website at nokia.com, it only works once, and it tells you if it's genuine or not15:11
RST38hOh man, they are still scratching batteries15:11
X-FadeShadowJK: My N900 doesn't have that.15:11
Phreedommgedmin: if the battery isn't made by Nokia, it doesn't mean it's broken ;)15:11
Phreedomit probably means that it's cheaper though15:11
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ShadowJKX-Fade, fake! ;-)15:11
RST38hAre batteries locked to cell phone providers too? =)15:11
SpeedEvilPhreedom: And may catch light at a higher rate than nokia batteries.15:11
X-FadeShadowJK: Doubtful ;)15:12
PhreedomSpeedEvil: very unlikely15:12
* SpeedEvil places a gag on RST38h.15:12
SpeedEvilDon't give them ideas.15:12
ShadowJKhm15:12
ShadowJKmy E75 doesn't either15:12
ShadowJKI wonder if they ended it15:12
PhreedomSpeedEvil: at least where I live, people usually buy "dud" batteries, no troubles so far15:12
SpeedEvil') nnod: ShadowJK: true, especially since one of the cheap N810 batteries I bought started smoking in my N810. the back panel was hot to touch and burned my finger. luckily there was no permanent damage apart from a burnt smell that still persists'15:12
SpeedEvilAnd a higher rate does not mean 10% or even 1%.15:12
wazdDamn, I really shocked how ugly Moto Droid is15:13
PhreedomSpeedEvil: naturally. but LiPo is usually safe15:13
RST38hwazd: Looks fine to me, although dpad could have been better15:13
ShadowJKlol15:13
wazdCouldn't expect that stuff from Moto15:13
nnodhehe15:13
RST38hwazd: the reql question is, of course, how that huge 856x480 screen behaves with Dalvik15:14
RST38hwazd: Should be slow like hell15:14
wazdRST38h: Droid looks like some chineese stuff - weird keyboard, simple brick design, boring bottom15:14
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ShadowJKPhreedom: How to fast charge LiPo, use a 15-minute NiCd charger: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCWdnjLqVWw15:14
X-FadeShadowJK: Heh, that can't be good ;)15:14
Ceron^http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCWdnjLqVWw15:14
glasswazd: maybe they just bought some chinese stuffers android15:14
Ceron^oops15:14
SpeedEvillipo is safe - how?15:15
wazdglass: that's Motorola, fucking geniuses of InDesign! :D15:15
X-FadeLipo is safe if you know what you are doing and QA is good ;)15:15
SpeedEvilIt can catch fire if you misuse it, or if there are construction problems in the battery15:15
wazdglass: I don't beleive that they are buing stuff somewhere15:15
glasswazd: geniuses of production lines, or not, too15:15
PhreedomShadowJK: you know the charger is in the device, not battery15:15
SpeedEvilhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OsBc8RqSKU - mechanical damage of a lipo battery15:15
glasswazd: well they have been in past too15:15
ShadowJKPhreedom, yes, but if the pack in the video had a thermal fuze it would've disconnected itself when temperature climbed :-)15:16
Phreedomalso li-ion explodes, instead of burning :)15:16
RST38hwazd: They may have fired all their R&D people during reorganization :)15:16
wazdRST38h: http://i.afterdawn.com/storage/pictures/news/normal_MotorolaDroid-4.jpg <- keyboard looks weird15:16
SpeedEvilPhreedom: however - you don't know that the cell has not been pinched, dropped, or badly assembled in the case, stressing it.15:16
PhreedomSpeedEvil: I sure do. I drop all my devices :)15:16
RST38hwazd: But what I would really like to know is not the look. It is the FEEL. Motorola always managed to provide the perfect feel.15:16
wazdRST38h: they have released Aura after crash15:16
wazdRST38h: and it absolutely kicks ass15:17
SpeedEvilPhreedom: The bare cell is lots less robust than it is once it's inside the plastic box.15:17
RST38hwazd: it is girly phone :)15:17
ShadowJKWell Li-Ion is usually rolled up into metal cans...15:17
ShadowJKand polymer is inside soft bags instead :)15:17
wazdRST38h: I don't care, it looks damn good :)15:17
wazdRST38h: Droid looks more like Dev unit than some real hardware15:18
PhreedomShadowJK: you know explosives + bits of metal are much more deadly than explosives alone ;)15:18
ShadowJKyes :)15:18
ShadowJKthe compression helps15:18
Phreedomso just don't wear a belt on your pants, so that you can take them off fast, and you'll be fine with lipo :)15:18
Phreedomthis is what I do15:18
Phreedom:)15:18
Phreedomand you can save 15eur on your n*** battery :)15:19
wazdRST38h: there are a lot of units that I feel nothing for, no hate no love15:19
RST38hwazd: Droid looks like a freaking huge screen with a keyboard to me15:19
Phreedomand some more money on the belt :)15:19
RST38hwazd: Dunno if it is good or bad really15:19
wazdRST38h: and I feel hate for Drid, it's disgusting somehow :)15:19
* Phreedom runs away15:19
ArkenkloRST38h: so does the n900 to me...15:19
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wazdRST38h: http://www.gadgetvenue.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/motorola-droid_3.jpg15:20
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wazdRST38h: eeeek15:21
RST38hwazd: is that an air exhaust?15:21
wazdRST38h: looks like :)15:21
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kirmamagic smoke exhaust15:25
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kirmawhat on earth is that lower edge thing on that phone? looks hugely unstylish in my opinion.15:28
kirmabut then again... american design... ;>15:28
kirmapeople that like fake wood panels on their station wagon must like it. somehow it looks almost kitsch retro to me. :I15:30
kirmaand I'm particularly little into stylish things...15:30
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wazdRST38h: I think so too :)15:32
kirmaUI doesn't look too bad, but the physical design, good god15:33
* RST38h brings it to kirma's attention that Nokia isn't that good on design either15:33
wazdkirma: in fact american school of design is rather good15:33
RST38hAnd US design is market driven15:34
rangeRST38h: Bah. That's fins chopping each mobile phone out of large pieces of wood. With an axe. By hand.15:34
wazdkirma: check out their buildings, cars, even old Moto phones15:34
rangeThe plastic coating comes later on :)15:34
RST38hrange: That is exactly how I imagined it15:34
RST38hrange: ingredients: vodka, axe, wood15:34
ifreqkirma: heya :-)15:34
wazdI like E series design :)15:34
kirmawadz: well. 99% of those I find quite expelling.15:35
rangeI have a 6120 classic at the moment, and I rather liket that design.15:35
kirma1% is good ;)15:35
RST38hAlso, Moto always ruled on the physical feel of their devices, sturdy, solid15:35
rangeliket? Thingie.15:35
RST38hBTW, Nokia's numbered handsets are pretty well designed. N-series, on the other hand...15:36
wazdRST38h: and Moto alwas sucked balls in software :)15:36
RST38hN900 is almost like an exception: it may not have outstanding design but it is not ugly15:36
RST38hwazd: They did not care, enever considered it important :)15:36
glassmoto has had too many sw baskets15:36
RST38hwazd: Hired shitload of sw people (about 2000 at one itme), developed for 4-5 different platforms15:36
glassway too many15:36
glassyeh15:36
RST38hEnded up broke15:37
glassand then focused not on making profit on any of them15:37
kirmaI can't really think what tho think of the droid design, exactly... either it's designed for some strange sort of american aesthetics or the design is completely ignored as a part of the product development ;>15:37
RST38hYea, the race to the bottom thing also played its part15:37
kirmain my opinion, N900 looks like it should and could. it's not meant to be a showpiece in its physical design, but it shouldn't make you cry blood... :)15:38
Corsachmmh, does someone know about some promo codes for expansys, btw?15:39
RST38hkirma: more or less, yes15:39
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ensihmm is there a trick to getting input in maemo? I have a Qt dialog with couple of input fields (tried with line edit and textinput) but 1) i cant set focus to these widgets 2) as soon as i start typing the system takes me to contacts application and im searching for matching contacts15:40
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ensiso it looks like there's a global something that is grabbing the input15:41
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fralsdoh, the solution with the least "score" on portrait mode input is the one nokia chose to implement in harmattan >_< (well, an API as well so not that big of a deal :P)15:41
kirmaof course, in some ways iphone is masterpiece in aesthetics, but saying that it's a masterpiece in physical usability in general would be pretty misguided. in comparison to that, most nokia phones try to find a balance... and then, these "put hardware in a box" designs like droid ignore the aesthetics entirely ;))15:42
* ShadowJK finds all these things ugly15:44
kirmasomehow I suspect the amount of motorola innovation on droid is close to zero15:44
ShadowJKalthough my E75 has a stainless steel back cover. Maybe I could put it in a salt bath and get an awesome post apocalyptic rusty feel to it.15:44
RST38hkirma: Isn't this the same for every Andoird or WinMo phone?15:44
Summeliensi: have you tried using widget->setfocus() function?-)15:44
Summeliit should do the trick15:45
RST38hkirma: You pretty much get a turn-key solution to place into your ROM15:45
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kirmaRST38h: well, to great extent. but clever hardware design is then a considerable factor to differentiate...15:46
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kirmawell, I mean hardware design that affects aesthetics too15:47
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ensiSummeli: good try but no, doesn't work any better15:50
kirmaof course, droid has an upper edge on competition because it has new android OS and fresh hardware... but how long that is going to last?15:50
RST38hFor Motorola, it may last for another 5-10 years :)15:51
kirmaa bit of design thouch wouldn't have hurted...15:51
RST38hRemember StarTAC, then Razr?15:51
Summeliensi: works for me :P15:51
ensiSummeli: you have a window or a dialog?15:51
ShadowJKwhat's droid, another omap3?15:51
Summelimaybe you could go even further, and use that setfocus on tha textedit, or line-edit, you are trying to edit15:51
ShadowJKwith android?15:51
Summeliensi: I used that for dialog15:51
ensiSummeli: yeah i set the focus to the first input widget15:52
ensiim using plain text edit now15:52
Summelithe setfocus does some as touching that dialog/window15:52
ensiits not workign, i dont get the caret15:52
Summeliensi: did you try to tap the edit before writing?15:52
ensiofc15:52
kirmadid they make NMT900 startacs? anyway, I remember seeing one back around those times when GSM hadn't yet catched on properly, and somehow the droid design brings it to my mind.15:52
Summeliensi: :( it just should work :(15:52
ensisigh15:53
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lopzhi ;)15:56
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wazdTough times for OMWeather came16:05
Stskeepsmm/16:06
Stskeeps?16:06
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mgedminwinds? hailstorms? hurricanes?16:07
wazdStskeeps: Vlad needs some rest after Fremantle Stars tortue, Pavel (second OMW coder) can't afford the device16:07
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Stskeepsah, sucks :/16:07
Stskeepsthey'll hopefully be able to run omweather on mer/n8x0 :P16:08
mgedminwhat was that tortue thing/16:09
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wazdmgedmin: well, deadlines, deadlines, and some more deadlines16:09
RST38hAnd after all that they neded up showcasing Foreca?16:10
RST38hended up16:10
wazdRST38h: yep16:10
RST38hshame.16:10
wazdRST38h: and gave him n900 for half'a'year :D16:11
RST38hwell, only because he attended the summit :)16:11
wazdRST38h: yep16:11
hrwhttp://mobiletablets.blogspot.com/2009/10/maemo-summit-news-n8x0-omap2-graphics.html - can someone finally tell me about which drivers it is?16:12
Stskeepshrw: TI guy announced open source kernel GLES 1.1, closed source lib, for MBX16:12
wazdhrm: OMAP2-graphics? :)16:12
Stskeepstested on N8x016:12
RST38hhrw: ImageTech finally broke down and agreed to release OGLES drivers for N8x016:13
wazdStskeeps: what about limitations of 3d acceleration?16:13
wazdStskeeps: like 640x48016:13
mgedminit's limited to three spatial dimensions16:13
Stskeepswazd: let's get them in our hands first before speculating16:13
RST38hwazd: I think it is an extra screen copy16:13
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Stskeepswazd: i doubt you'll be able to have 3d strippoker but clutter may just work.16:14
hrwah.. that full-of-bugs 3d driver...16:14
RST38hWell, OMAP2 has got an internal screen buffer with 640x480 resolution.16:14
hrwclutter works with it16:14
RST38hI understand that OGLES renders stuff there16:14
RST38hOnce it renders to that buffer you still need to send it to the Blizzard chip16:14
Stskeepshrw: things have improved, some claim16:14
hrwat least worked. I saw 3D demo on n810 prototype ~2 years ago16:14
RST38hWhether it can be done with a DMA or you need to do an extra CPU copy, I have no idea16:15
hrw3d as "opengl es"16:15
kirmais there way to access location information in maemo 5 style from pymaemo?16:17
wazdStskeeps: who needs it without strippoker?!16:17
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lizardokirma: there are no bindings for location API yet (AFAIK) :( But if you feel brave, you can try accessing the  C API from Python using ctypes, Jaffa had success doing that for the addressbook API16:19
RST38hwazd: You really want OGLES-rendered strippers? Sure?16:19
wazdRST38h: :D16:19
kirmalizardo: yep, that sort of came to my mind.16:19
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kirmaI should first set up the SDK successfully. somehow my first try failed very convincingly...16:20
kirmaas if the SDK installation process would have been designed to weed out non-hardcore developers ;>16:20
RST38hkirma: Install SDK+16:21
mgedminkirma: it probably was16:21
RST38hSDK+ basically installs by adding their repo and selecting packages in Aptitude16:21
* mgedmin didn't have much luck with SDK+ a year ago16:21
RST38hthat was a year ago, and even then SDK+ was way easier to use16:21
mgedminit installed fine, but then you couldn't apt-get install anything inside the sbox environment, making it useless16:22
mgedminI hope it's better now?16:22
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RST38hThe use case for MS Surface finally found: http://gizmodo.com/5385625/dungeons--dragons-on-the-microsoft-surface16:23
wazdFunny statistics: author of the most popular app for maemo earned 5 bucks a month for it from Nokia :)16:23
RST38hmgedmin; Well, I did apt-get install and it seemed to work for me now16:23
mgedminwhat _is_ the most popular maemo app?16:24
RST38hwazd: "ne zhdi, ne boisya, ne prosi"16:24
mgedminRST38h: cool!16:24
thpandre___: ping16:24
RST38hmgedmin: Check Maemo Downloads?16:24
andre___thp, pong16:24
wazdRST38h: :)16:24
thpandre___: bug 1129 should be reopened in my opinion. i just added a new comment.16:25
thpplease have a look :)16:25
andre___Stskeeps, you still have to workaround https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4023 and 3939 , right? :-/16:25
mgedminhey, infobot, can you fetch but titles from bugzilla when somebody mentions a bug number/url?16:25
mgedmins/but/bug/16:25
infobotmgedmin meant: hey, infobot, can you fetch bug titles from bugzilla when somebody mentions a bug number/url?16:25
Stskeepsandre___: checking16:25
etrunkoanyone had any issue with ssh in n900?16:25
etrunkoi login to the device and a few moments later it stops responding16:25
etrunkosearched for bugs and couldn't find anything16:25
andre___thp, thanks16:25
thpetrunko: try to disable WiFi powersaving16:25
mgedminetrunko: wifi power savings16:25
etrunko\o/16:26
Stskeepsandre___: 4023 yes i think - i havent caught up to all sources16:26
thpetrunko: a workaround that has worked for me is to listen to a web radio stream on the device, which seems to make the connection more responsive..16:26
Stskeepsandre___: 3939 wasn't directly fixed but we haven't checked it recently16:26
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andre___hmm, okay16:26
etrunkothp: so it seems you can't leave the device downloading stuff then..16:27
thpetrunko: i believe that as long as something is utilizing the network connection on the device, the connection will stay open / responsive16:28
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etrunkothp: couldn't find where to disable it16:32
thpetrunko: Settings -> Internet connections -> Connections -> (pick yours) -> Edit -> Next (3x) -> Advanced -> Other -> Power saving16:33
etrunkoouch16:34
etrunkovery intuitive. ;)16:34
mgedmineasy, isn't it?16:34
mgedminstill, it's better than it was on a n81016:34
etrunkohehe16:34
mgedminwhere you had to go back in the middle, then disconnect, then repeat everything, then reconnect16:34
mgedminthankfully you only do this once (for every wlan that has a broken access point that doesn't support power savings properly)16:35
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VDVsxI've a very weird bug that started to happen with the last reflash, each time I install a new app, the scroll in "more" screen disappear until I restart the device16:36
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recalcati_good morning16:36
thpVDVsx: workaround is "killall hildon-desktop" in xterm16:36
mgedminVDVsx: it passes if you lie down for a while16:36
lcuketrunko, those push n900 projects are cool!16:37
mgedminIIRC the bug is closed as fixed in bugzilla, we'll get the fix with the next firmware image16:37
VDVsxah, I'm not the only one with this issue :) lol16:37
lcukthe piggy bank is a really great idea for kids16:37
etrunkolcuk: yeah, the guys did a great job16:37
mgedminpiggybank?  as in, here's a piggybank for you, if you drop a pound in it every day you'll be able to buy yourself a n900 in a couple of years?16:37
lcuki almost choked on my coffee when i saw the N9POV one16:38
mgedminokay, I need a link now16:38
lcukmgedmin, they are here http://wouwlabs.com/blogs/jeez/16:38
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cheater55hi guys16:39
cheater55i was sent here from #mer :)16:39
cheater55i'm wondering about the cheapest way to do this: have a mobile or landline phone number in the UK; people call this number and calls get forwarded to me over some form of internet based technology (for example skype, voip, etc). this is so that I can move freely around the world.16:39
lcukcheater55, get a long extension cord16:40
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Stskeepscheater55: maybe skypein instead?16:40
cheater55what's skypein?16:40
* cheater55 googles16:41
mihuetrunko: I ssh a lot into my N900 and I did not know about that power saving thing either. In fact, it's now at maximum power saving. But I never encountered any problems with my ssh sessions.16:41
w00tpower saving?16:41
* w00t reads up16:41
w00tah16:42
cheater55hmm16:42
w00tmakes sense16:42
vesahow do you mean power saving?16:42
cheater55that's almost exactly what i was looking for, stskeeps!16:42
GeneralAntillesmihu, depends on how much network activity you have.16:42
GeneralAntilles~wifi-psm16:42
infobotextra, extra, read all about it, wifi-psm is http://wiki.maemo.org/Wifi_Power_Saving_Mode_(PSM)16:42
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cheater55great!16:42
vesai can't get mine to last much over a day. perhaps i have a crap battery16:42
mihuGeneralAntilles: Hm, perhaps it's the fact that I have permanent contact to my Jabber account that makes the link to stay up.16:42
X-Fadevesa: Crappy software is more likely.16:42
X-Fadevesa: Or at least software which doesn't let the device sleep correctly.16:43
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recalcati_I'm trying to convince my boss to book a N900. It is true that it is a development platform for maemo? I've read all the presentation, but I don't find info about N900. I also like to install QT4.5.16:43
vesahmm. good point, i'll have a quick scan whats eating cpu16:43
recalcati_thx16:43
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lcukrecalcati_, i think its 4.6 isnt it16:45
GeneralAntillesUgh16:45
ShadowJKwhat do you mean by development platform?16:45
GeneralAntilleshttps://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=329816:45
w00trecalcati_: seen http://maemo.org/development/ ?16:45
GeneralAntillesStupid, idiotic spec.16:45
GeneralAntillesIt's like it was invented by people who hate usability.16:45
mgedminrecalcati_: the development platform for maemo is a laptop running the maemo 5 sdk, which is a linux command-line based programming environment16:45
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ShadowJKdude, all UI designers hate usability and user friendliness16:46
ShadowJKthat's their job16:46
mgedminthe n900 is a device running maemo 5, and is indispensable for testing16:46
mgedminthere are various IDEs and virtual machine images built around the SDK to make development easier16:46
recalcati_thx. I will use beagleboard to access jtag, instead for N900 maemo I'd like to install applications and for example do some video streaming (I have to study !!!)16:46
w00tGeneralAntilles: agreed16:46
mgedminsure, you can do that with a n90016:46
vesaX-Fade: are there known battery-eating apps (like facebook widget/rss)?16:47
mgedminand some people install C compilers and build stuff directly on a n90016:47
GeneralAntillesandre___, since I expect a lot more stupid decisions coming out of Nokia, can we shoot for more of a reporter advocacy stance than a Nokia advocacy stance?16:47
w00tGeneralAntilles: i think the more pertinent question is *why* was it dropped from spec :)16:47
hrwrecalcati_: qt 4.5.3 supports maemo5. qt4.6 has it merged16:47
GeneralAntillesw00t, because Nokia designers are idiots.16:47
vesajust looking at top there's only Xorg but that's nothing special i guess16:47
hrwrecalcati_: Kate A. from Nokia wrote something about it recently16:47
mgedminvesa: I suspect the facebook widget, but currently have no evidence against it16:47
w00tGeneralAntilles: a slightly less inflammatory reason ;)16:47
lcuk:S gen16:47
GeneralAntillesw00t, and the spec often gets in the way of rational thought.16:47
mgedminvesa: you might want to play with powertop (as root)16:47
vesamgedmin: mmm, i'll take that out and see how well it fares16:47
GeneralAntilleslcuk, you can talk when you've been fighting them since the 770 days. :)16:47
hrwrecalcati_: check planet.maemo.org16:47
w00tGeneralAntilles: i suspect that it wasn't done deliberately to piss people off, so it would be interesting to know what really did lead to it16:48
mgedminalthough igor stoppa said on the list it's not really the best tool for this16:48
andre___GeneralAntilles, there's nothing explaining the reasons in the internal ticket16:48
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* mgedmin defends Nokia designers16:48
GeneralAntillesandre___, my point is that it might offer us a way forward if we change closed bugs to enhancements.16:48
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lcukgen but a spec gives people defined targets and stops everybody being headless chickens16:48
Lynourethe FB widget does not seem very useful, as clicking on the entries does not even take me to that entry16:48
GeneralAntillesw00t, usually the reasoning is something along the lines of "you might hurt yourself"16:48
recalcati_So, maemo 5 run on N900. I will need aslo an eclipse plugin with emulator and download through usb and step-by-step debugging16:49
Robot101andre___: the problem is that this external bugzilla is the only way for public people to make requests, whereas the internal one is only about whether the software meets the spec. so maybe we need to forward this to be a bug in the spec internally, not the implementation.16:49
GeneralAntilleslcuk, unfortunately in the case of Maemo it also gives lazy people an instant trump card.16:49
andre___GeneralAntilles, my big problem is that I'm always unsure whether to keep stuff open for Harmattan. It's hard to find out :-/16:49
vesamgedmin: thanks, i'll try that16:49
Robot101I've never had much luck changing (even utterly utterly broken) specs via internal bugzilla16:49
GeneralAntillesandre___, I'm inclined to say chase them down.16:49
Robot101I think there's some other tool, or you have to just go and scream at them16:50
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GeneralAntillesandre___, get a real answer, and if the answer sucks get the answer fixed.16:50
lcukmornin Robot101 \o16:50
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* w00t would agree with that16:50
* crashanddie is confused16:50
andre___Robot101, if something is internally WONTFIXed for Fremantle I clone them to Harmattan (if the infrastructure is already in place)16:50
crashanddieOne of our customers is a new bank16:50
Robot101GeneralAntilles: on the internal bugzilla, if you're looking at a piece of software, "the spec doesn't say its meant to do that" *is* a correct answer.16:50
crashanddieOn the wikipedia page of the founder, it says "Hill founded Commerce Bancorp in 1973, basing its business model on that of the Burger King restaurants that he'd once owned."16:50
GeneralAntillesBecause the way things are happening now sucks.16:50
Robot101GeneralAntilles: the problem is this doesn't hold well on the external bugzilla, because there's no /other/ way to complain about the spec16:51
GeneralAntillesRobot101, clearly something about our current process needs to change then.16:51
crashanddieso it's going to be something like "Take out a mortgage with Metro Bank, get a free Angus Burger with chips" ?16:51
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Robot101GeneralAntilles: so that bugs.maemo.org has some recourse with the people who control the specs (or indeed the requirements), yes16:51
w00tsurely the acceptable way forward would be to provide a  component (or something) for a spec target?16:52
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andre___that exists16:52
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GeneralAntillesRobot101, we have a product for the spec, but it's basically a black hole.16:52
GeneralAntillesRobot101, so, we're not much better off than we were 3 years ago. . . .16:52
andre___maybe we should move WONTFIX stuff to UI Spec and keep it open so it can be tried again for harmattan16:52
crashanddieRobot101: the community will never defined requirements16:53
* ShadowJK would guess the spec appeal procedure goes through the Nokia Care blackhole16:53
w00tandre___: yeah, that was what I meant16:53
Robot101GeneralAntilles: the internal one isn't much better fwiw, its never been clear to me how you actually get through to the UI designers to discuss why you think something is busted16:53
Robot101GeneralAntilles: they usually get offended and say its not a bug and invalidate it16:53
GeneralAntillesRobot101, it feels to me like you don't.16:53
GeneralAntillesClearly something about that process needs to change.16:53
GeneralAntillesPerhaps time for a new Brainstorm. <_<16:53
Robot101if you run around in Helsinki and get someone to introduce you to the right person and sketch on a napkin why it's broken... :)16:54
Robot101maemo.org needs napkin-waving runners16:54
GeneralAntillesSomebody besides me should open that one, though, because I'm just going to call them all fscking idiots.16:54
crashanddienew "depends" line for .debs: napkin-waving. Package napkin-waving was not found.16:54
andre___....which does not really help change things16:54
crashanddieGeneralAntilles: you misspelt "fucking"16:55
Robot101but basically I'm saying the problem here is just echoing an internal one, its not even clear how to actually influence UI specs on the internal bugzilla. I don't think you can.16:55
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andre___Robot101, heh, exactly :-/16:55
crashanddieRobot101: UI is something very complicated16:55
mgedminfscking is a perfectly cromulent euphemism16:55
GeneralAntillesSo, who wants to volunteer to put this issue on Brainstorm?16:55
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crashanddiewell, from a "sell-it-to-management" perspective16:55
Robot101but by all means, you should raise with N the problem that spec bugs on the public bugzilla don't seem to go anywhere16:55
kirmaifreq: ah16:55
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GeneralAntillesRobot101, that issue's been raised in the past and sadly it still doesn't seem to go anywhere.16:56
GeneralAntillesThe spec product was the result16:56
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ifreqkirma: youve must multitask16:56
cheater55alright guys16:56
ifreq:)16:56
cheater55thanks a lot!16:56
GeneralAntillesbut I don't know that anybody who actually cares actually watches that.16:56
Robot101reopen the issue then :)16:56
Stskeepshttp://maemo.gitorious.org/fremantle-hildon-desktop16:57
Stskeepsexcellent16:57
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X-FadeStskeeps: Now ask for commit access :)16:57
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andre___I can only quote an internal comment from today: "It's better with Fremantle than in earlier releases because we had the SDKs out earlier. I hope this will get better in Harmattan as more of the code development moves to open version control and even some design/arch docs are being opened."16:57
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w00tGeneralAntilles: i'd be happy to sort it out if you give me a hand with the process16:57
GeneralAntillesRobot101, just need to find somebody who can do so without impinging the virtuosity of certain people's mothers. . . .16:57
w00tStskeeps: that is good.16:58
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Robot101GeneralAntilles: :P16:58
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* GeneralAntilles nominates Jaffa, actually.16:59
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qwerty12_N810GeneralAntilles: Catch penguinbait the next time he is around17:00
w00tdoesn't bother me, so long as it gets done :)17:00
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N810 :P17:00
Stskeeps'without impinging the virtousity of certain people's mothers', qwerty12_N81017:00
GeneralAntillesI'm pretty sure he's not familiar enough with the issue. :D17:00
zerojayN900lol17:01
qwerty12_N810Stskeeps: I thought it's me who likes to run his mouth? ;)17:01
zerojayN900qwerty, I'm now cleaning coke off my monitor thanks to you.17:01
qwerty12_N810:p17:01
Robot101:)17:01
zerojayN900everyone at work is staring. lol17:02
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lcukStskeeps, i always thought hildon desktop was fully open anyway17:09
Stskeepsdon't get me started on dependancies thougfh..17:09
* w00t presses the 'start' button17:10
w00tgo go17:10
qwerty12_N810boom17:10
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* mgedmin reaches for the 'stop' button17:11
lcuklol17:11
w00they17:11
w00the hadn't even reached supernova point yet17:11
w00t;)17:11
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VDVsxQuestion for n900 owners: what would be the best time for you for a extras-testing marathon ? week day or weekend ?17:13
LynoureVDVsx: weekend or (Finnish) evening17:13
LynoureBut what's an extras-testing marathon? testing stuff in extras repo? Doing something else?17:14
zerojayN900yeah marathon asap, plese.17:15
qwerty12_N810It's where we go around thumbing down everything uploaded by VDVsx17:15
SpeedEvilVDVsx: After it arrives.17:15
GeneralAntillesAh, awesome, VDVsx, the pleading hadn't been working so well. ;)17:15
zerojayN900two more votes for my wallpaper packagek plz?17:16
fiferboyOn a related note, go and rate personal-ip-address and personal-gprs-mon!17:16
mgedminzerojayN900: remind me of the package name, please17:16
qwerty12_N810simple-brightness-applet!17:16
* VDVsx hits qwerty12_N810 and disable all his maemo fake accounts17:16
mgedminfiferboy: did you decide to revert gprs-mon to previous design?17:17
* fiferboy has voted for both of those...17:17
* qwerty12_N810 must make more....17:17
zerojayN900classic-gaming-wallpapers17:17
javispedroha. Illusion of Gaia crashes drnoksnes up to the point not even the sdl parachute works.17:17
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fiferboymgedmin: There is an option :)17:17
mgedminah!17:17
pH5ok, it's about time for the n900 to be released.17:18
zerojayN900also, try out adblock plus!17:18
* pH5 just sat on his n81017:18
zerojayN900lol17:18
mgedminouch17:18
SpeedEvil:/17:18
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pH5good evening :)17:18
qwerty12_N810pH5: Lame. I've dropped my N800 so many times, on hard surfaces and it's still alive17:18
qwerty12_N810Evening, pH517:19
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qwerty12_N810I dropped my N810 and the cover and battery come out >.<17:19
pH5oh, dropping it can take.17:19
pH5bending seems to be a problem17:19
javispedroqwerty12_N810: ouch. That happened to me too. I need MagSafe power cable.17:19
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qwerty12_N810*came17:19
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SpeedEvilYet another project.17:20
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* mgedmin cracked one N810 screen, probably with his elbow, and broke another N810 stand's the intermediate positions after dropping it17:20
qwerty12_N810javispedro: Heh... I still think the N800 is better made :)17:20
mgedminmagsafe cables ++17:20
SpeedEvilI've got a magsafe-alike-USB cable that sort-of-works.17:20
SpeedEvilI just need to get it right.17:20
qwerty12_N810I had a Wiimote strap attached to my phone. Little did I know it was part of the batch that had a tendency to break easily...17:21
SpeedEvil(power + USB)17:21
javispedroas usual, evilQwerty.17:22
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qwerty12_N810javispedro: Well, you already know my thoughts on the Wii itself :p17:23
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javispedroWA? There's now another topic about N900 shipping?17:25
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recalcati_So, I book an N900 and it will be my QT and Maemo application platform !17:25
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recalcati_If install qt on N900 it goes on working as a phone ?17:28
lcukjavispedro, didnt you know, they renamed the site:  talkaboutn900shipping.maemo.org17:28
pH5:)17:28
zerojayN900one more thumbs up for simple brightness.17:28
javispedroit will always be tmo for me.17:29
lcukitt17:29
qwerty12_N810Thanks, zerojay17:29
javispedrolcuk: touché.17:29
zerojayN900thanks for making itl17:29
zerojayN900.17:29
mgedminrecalcati_: yes17:30
* BBNS breakfast checked, t.m.o checked, qt lab checked, engadget checked, slashdot checked ... time to go to work.17:30
mgedminbtw what's the state of qt?17:30
mgedminthe official nokia port is not ready yet17:30
mgedminhow well does the community one work on a n900?17:30
mgedminI've no clue17:30
Ceron^just got a 300 euro bill from the hospital :(17:30
mgedminand little interest17:30
Ceron^how can i afford the n900 now17:30
BBNSmgedmin, what do you mean not ready yet? :Q17:31
mgedminbut I'd suggest recalcati_ research that if he wants to develop qt apps for maemo 517:31
mgedminBBNS: the very first "technical preview" alpha version was released recently17:31
qwerty12_N810Ceron^: Put the person asking you for money in hospital...17:31
mgedminand people complained that it doesn't compile17:31
tekonivelCeron^: you will get another for your carpal sundrome treatment after surfing on the net with N90 ;)17:31
mgedminthat's all I know17:31
BBNSmgedmin, isn't that Qt already bundle in maemo sdk already?17:31
GeneralAntillesmgedmin, erm.17:31
GeneralAntillesmgedmin, that's of the Harmattan framework.17:31
tekonivels/N90/N900/17:32
recalcati_mgedmin: thx, I hope it will be solved. By now I have only to plan the booking of the device.17:32
lcukqwerty12_N810, wheres the voting page for simple brightness17:32
GeneralAntillesmgedmin, Qt was just released officially supported.17:32
GeneralAntillesmgedmin, the community-supported version has been available forever.17:32
X-FadeQT4.5 is in SDK and on device by default.17:32
BBNSrecalcati_, that's misinformed... Qt is ready.17:32
mgedminwell, cool then17:32
qwerty12_N810lcuk: http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/simple-brightness-applet/1.1-1maemo0/ - thanks!17:32
lcuk\o/17:32
mgedminI got the wrong impression at the summit, apparently17:32
* lcuk is pleased qt is on device by default17:32
javispedroA worrying thought: People already spam boards just to boast their post count. On tmo, spamming the board hard enough will get you a dev discount.17:32
mgedminare there any qt apps in maemo 5?17:33
SpeedEviljavispedro: I thought the discounts were set17:33
SpeedEviljavispedro: and unchanging - now17:33
Ceron^oh :\17:33
javispedroSpeedEvil: I think they're already racing for n920...17:33
mgedminjavispedro: I hope they change discount criteria randomly to prevent people from gaming the system17:33
X-Fadejavispedro: Well, karma is sqrt(posts) there.17:33
Ceron^can someone give me a dev discount17:33
Ceron^D:17:33
recalcati_BBNS: thx17:33
lcukqwerty12_N810, you just got your 10/10 :)17:33
SpeedEviljavispedro: Possibly. I just hope my (non-karma-based) discount works - or I won't have a 900 for a while.17:34
lcuktho somehow my last vote has gone 2 hours behind zerojays17:34
tor2Maybe if such threads could be just moved wholesale over to offtopic, and all counts acquired from that thread would be automagically removed17:34
qwerty12_N810lcuk: Hehe, racing for the button... :)17:34
* Jaffa has just had lunch with some Forum Nokia people. They seemed quite nice, considering ;-)17:34
lardmananyone with Diablo sb in front of them?17:34
javispedroX-Fade: so what, they just need 1,606938044e+460 posts to get a discount ;)17:34
recalcati_anyway qt for maemo id qt over x1117:34
JaffaThey want to turn me into a Symbian hobby developer... arargh!17:34
tor2Ah, are they ultra-busy processing certains mails, perhaps?17:34
recalcati_not qt on fb17:34
mgedminlardman: kinda17:34
X-Fadejavispedro: So they need 40k posts at least ;)17:34
Jaffajavispedro: 8*sqrt(thanks) though.17:35
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JaffaIIRC17:35
javispedro(lol, javispedro can't make gcalctool work)17:35
lcukJaffa, nothing wrong with that lol17:35
lardmanmgedmin: could you do an apt-cache search libsoup for me please?17:36
fiferboylcuk: Since you are voting...17:36
fiferboyhttp://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/personal-gprs-mon/0.5-3/17:36
javispedrolardman: shoot17:36
javispedroouch.17:36
javispedroi'm late.17:36
fiferboyhttp://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-testing_free_armel/personal-ip-address/0.3-5/17:36
mgedminlardman: no results17:37
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javispedroI get libsoup2.2-dev - an HTTP library implementation in C -- Development files17:37
javispedrolibsoup2.2-8 - an HTTP library implementation in C -- Shared library17:37
mgedminlardman: I've got sdk and tools repos only17:37
lardmanhmm, ok, thanks17:37
lcukfiferboy, i havent got gprs mon on17:37
mgedminmight be in extras17:37
mgedminI only have deb-src lines for extras17:37
lcukand i really hate the fact they are in different places17:37
javispedroyeah, they come from extras or devel (where's than whence package when you need it?)17:37
lardmanyeah, will need to downgrade the version I'm requiring17:37
lcukjavispedro, ill install it17:37
lardmanand test17:37
lcukbut i cant test until i have gprs data17:38
lcuki have a bug at the moment tho17:38
lardmanthanks chaps17:38
lcukhi simon17:38
fiferboylcuk: Me neither... well, I can test the functionality by faking the GPRS data in gconf17:38
lcukthats not the same17:38
lcuk:P17:38
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mgedminI can't quite understand when gprs data counter resets17:38
lcuki cant open app menu17:38
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fiferboymgedmin: You do it manually through the control panel17:39
lcuknever17:39
lcukfiferboy wrote it with 128bit ints17:39
mgedminfiferboy: I never did it, yet I've seen the numbers go down17:39
fiferboymgedmin: Does it show a reset date?17:39
mgedmindunno, I haven't looked17:39
lcukqwerty has already rolled the counter round a few times with his torrent downloads ;)17:39
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mgedminno, if I enable 'show reset date' I get an empty space below the numbers17:40
fiferboymgedmin: Strange, it should show "Never"17:40
mgedmincurrently I see 370 kb, and I know that I ought to have at least 50 megs17:40
mgedminaha! bug! :)17:40
mgedminthis is in compact mode btw17:40
fiferboymgedmin: If you go into the phone section of the control panel, what does it say for GPRS data there?17:40
zerojayN900i've reported it before.17:40
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javispedro128 bit ints? what, you're transferring entire universes through GPRS?17:40
zerojayN900the phone flips out and erases your totals.17:41
mgedmincpanel says received: 370 kB, last reset: never17:41
fiferboyjavispedro: I beleive lcuk was speaking with his tongue in his cheek17:41
mgedminreboot might reset the counters17:41
lcukmmnmnnmn17:41
zerojayN900andre__ looks like that bug isn't closed after all.17:41
javispedroI think he was speaking with bacon in his tongue ;)17:41
zerojayN900no, reboot doesn't.17:41
lcukmmm17:41
mgedminhttp://repository.maemo.org/extras/dists/diablo/free/source/Sources.gz  401 Unauthorized ?17:41
fiferboymgedmin: Okay, so GPRS mon is reporting the same?17:42
javispedromgedmin: getting that too.17:42
mgedminyep,17:42
zerojayN900yes.17:42
fiferboylcuk: You should be able to type clearly with your tongue in your cheek...17:42
mgedminexcept for the empty space instead of 'never'17:42
zerojayN900it's a phone bug, not an app issue.17:42
fralshe got bacon on his fingers and not in his mouth!17:42
lcukspeech to text17:42
fiferboymgedmin: I haven't seen that.  You are in compact mode with reset date on?17:42
lcukfrals, thats it - my fingers slipped17:43
mgedminyes, fiferboy17:43
mgedminwant a screenshot?17:43
fiferboymgedmin: Please17:43
zerojayN900fiferboy i told you about this before.17:43
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fiferboymgedmin: If you remove the widget and add it again, does it work?17:43
mgedmindon't know, can't be bothered to find out17:43
fiferboyzerojayN900: About the reset date not displaying?  Or the counter getting reset randomly?17:43
zerojayN900random resets.17:44
X-Fademgedmin: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=562217:44
X-Fademgedmin: Pinging Marcell ;)17:44
qwerty12_N810fiferboy: Make a bug requesting for the headers of libconnui to be available in SB (and a library to link to, of course..)17:45
qwerty12_N810s/in SB/in the Fremantle SDK, nokia-binaries repo/17:45
infobotqwerty12_N810 meant: fiferboy: Make a bug requesting for the headers of libconnui to be available in the Fremantle SDK, nokia-binaries repo (and a library to link to, of course..)17:45
mgedminfiferboy: http://share.ovi.com/media/mgedmin.N900screenshots/mgedmin.1000317:46
mgedminalso: ovi sucks17:46
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mgedmincan somebody write a sharing plugin for some sane picture sharing site?17:46
fiferboyqwerty12_N810: Actually, in the latest SDK it no longer crashes when adding a libconnui object...17:46
GeneralAntillesandre___, that was easy :roll:.17:46
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mgedminwhat are sane picture sharing sites?17:46
zerojayN900sane?17:46
lcukmgedmin, flickr?17:46
GeneralAntilles^17:46
mgedminflickr frowns upon screenshots, iirc17:46
lcuknahh17:46
zerojayN900no.17:46
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lcukits a photo17:47
javispedrothey just ban your account from the mainpage.17:47
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andre___GeneralAntilles, haha. now if they'd only use query internally instead of having three tickets about the same thing...17:47
lcuko_O17:47
qwerty12_N810fiferboy: Oh, they're already available?17:47
zerojayN900flickr ftw.17:47
lcukok flickr is evil17:47
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* mgedmin uses flickr for photos17:47
lcuklol17:47
qwerty12_N810fiferboy: Or a ConIC object?17:47
* lcuk just takes photos17:47
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fiferboyqwerty12_N810: Well, it still doesn't like it, but it doesn't crash17:47
lcukmoved imageselect into the lib17:47
fiferboyqwerty12_N810: Oops, ConIC object, sorry17:47
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qwerty12_N810fiferboy: Yeah, I still think filing a bug requesting libconnui's -dev package to be available in nokia-binaries. Case in point: Personal GRPS (GPRS, sorry ;)) Monitor and its usage of GConf directly, when Nokia already have this sorted out...17:49
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javispedroqwerty12_N810: ask for icd2 when you file that bug too ;)17:49
javispedroah well, only -dev packages.17:50
javispedronm.17:50
TomaszDwhere should I report the fact that the newest PC Suite assumes the n900's language is always English?17:50
qwerty12_N810javispedro: Well, it's like what libconic is to icd2 and what libosso is to mce17:50
javispedroaka something that won't ever be fully opened.17:51
fiferboymgedmin: I was able to reproduce the reset date not showing up, now to see if I can fix it...17:53
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fiferboymgedmin: I think I have fixed the bug, just need to test.17:55
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crashanddie~lart idiots on t.m.o17:56
* infobot frags idiots on t.m.o with his BFG900017:56
crashanddieinfobot: cookie17:56
infobotHey crashanddie, roflao is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEWgs6YQR9A17:56
crashanddiehmm?17:56
* javispedro clicks link hoping its not goatse17:56
* javispedro closes window and bans infobot17:57
crashanddiejavispedro: agreed17:57
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crashanddiehttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=352667#post35266717:58
* absolute searches for a firefox plugin that will exit his browser anytime n900 is entered into a search box17:59
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crashanddieread the two-before-last post17:59
lardmanlcuk: sorry, hi, missed your comment18:00
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Macerfull metal jacket is exactly like real boot camp.. it is amazing18:04
Macer:)18:04
lcukhey lardman18:04
lardmanhmm, shall I write in that thread my proposal to just multiply all TMO karma by 0.000000000000118:05
lardman?18:05
javispedrolardman: NO THANKS!18:05
lardmanhi lcuk18:05
lardmanjavispedro: careful, if you disagree I'll one touch band and clean you ;)18:05
qwerty12_N810lardman: Please do, then I can use that No Thanks! button on you ;)18:05
zerojayN900lol18:05
lardmans/band/ban18:05
zerojayN900no thanks flood before the next device discount. heh18:06
lardmanwell I don't think we should have a "No thanks" button18:06
lardmanbut "Thanks" is not really being used the way it should be18:06
javispedroWe should have "Thanks", "I agree", and "FINISH HIM!" buttons.18:06
lardmanyeah18:06
lcukwe need complex karma, multiply it by sqrt(-1)18:06
lardmanat least the first 218:06
absolutehaha18:06
qwerty12_N810The karma whore side of me will cry if there is a No Thanks! button18:06
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zerojayN900lol18:07
qwerty12_N810javispedro: rofl18:07
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lcukhaha18:07
GeneralAntillesHaha18:07
GeneralAntillesNo Thanks! will just be vindictive.18:07
lardmanindeed18:07
lardmanis a bad thing18:07
lcuki like the slashdot way18:07
lcukmultiple moderation types18:08
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lcukand configurable scores for viewing18:08
Corsacisn't it a bit too late for n900 developer program anyway?18:08
GeneralAntilleslcuk, we don't have enough users for that.18:08
lcukwell i wondered that - if someone with nearly 200 karma could work hard enough to become eligable18:08
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javispedroto be honest, I'd prefer not to be innovative in this aspect and just follow what IPB or vB or whatever tmo uses guidelines.18:09
lcukGeneralAntilles, yet18:09
lardmanas we discussed at the summit, what is karma even for, that's the first thing to establish18:09
Corsaclcuk: is karma 13 “nearly 200”?18:09
lcukyeah18:09
* Corsac hides18:09
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lardmane.g. dev devices, use for new people to know if you know what you're talking about, etc., etc.18:09
lcukif you squint a bit18:09
crashanddielardman: they'd get it wrong and divide by 0.000000000000118:09
lcukand set the high mark to over 900018:09
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qwerty12_N810Personally, a Reputation system, instead of Thanks!, would be slightly more closer to karma in the way that you can thumb up/down posts18:09
lardmanlol18:10
X-FadeThe whole idea of karma is to make contributors visible.18:10
* zerojayN900 clicks the Finish Him! button.18:10
crashanddieI would rather see an intelligence meter18:10
crashanddieso that you could actually "dumb" up/down posts18:10
lcukwe should just use the same algorithm as that puts lardman on the front page18:10
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lardmanindeed :)18:10
crashanddiethere's an algorithm that puts lardman on the front page?18:11
javispedroDid you hear that rumour about "The lardman paradox" X-Files episode?18:11
lcukliqbase physics view on the front with all the people18:11
lardmanthat's just inertia, I've been transitioning away from the front page for the past 8 months, just starting to accelerate now18:11
lcukhaha18:11
qwerty12_N810lcuk: He's VIP, didn't you know? He's been a part of maemo.org since 1970...18:11
lardman:D18:11
qwerty12_N810Hell, he's the real admin, not X-Fade18:11
lcukStrodingers bacon18:11
X-Fadeqwerty12_N810: I deny everything.18:12
javispedrolcuk: can be eaten and vomited at the same time?18:12
lcukif theres an x-files episode - who is mulder and who is scully?18:12
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crashanddielcuk: schroedinger?18:12
* SpeedEvil puts on the Bloodhound Gang.18:12
qwerty12_N810X-Fade: Heh18:12
crashanddielcuk: helena is scully, fo so18:12
crashanddiefox would probably be jaffa18:13
lcukits only got that spelling after you open the textbox18:13
lcukuntil then, the spelling is undetermined18:13
Corsac:))18:13
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crashanddiesounds like a bad version of pandora's box18:13
GeneralAntilleslcuk, we opened the box. You spelled it wrong.18:13
crashanddie"let's see if you are a virgin"18:13
CorsacI currently wear my “schrœdinger's cat is dead” shirt18:13
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lcuknot in my universe18:13
javispedroseriously. Still need a good explanation for the lardman paradox.18:14
crashanddiejavispedro: what is the paradox?18:14
GeneralAntillesjavispedro, sssh.18:14
GeneralAntillesjavispedro, don't anger him.18:14
lcukuntil you open the link, you do not know if lardman exists or not18:14
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javispedrocrashanddie: he's _always_ (or nearly always) on the "random members" section in m.o frontpage18:14
qwerty12_N810javispedro: He'll ban you... He's the maemo.org admin, and a Talk Super Moderator...18:14
lardmanhe is omnipresent, that's your problem18:14
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lcukits just random luck18:15
lardmanjavispedro: afaict I'm always there and have been for something like 6 months18:15
lcukno you arent18:15
javispedrolcuk: random luck for 6 months?18:15
javispedrothus the paradox.18:15
lcukyou are just there when you look18:15
lardmanif only my luck would move to lottery numbers... ;)18:15
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javispedrothere MUST be a logical and scientific explanation.18:16
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javispedrolike, what's "lardman"'s md5 hash?18:16
javispedroI dunno.18:16
qwerty12_N810X-Fade takes a monthly sum from lardman's account18:16
lardmanlol18:16
SpeedEvile0bb4c448b67a77c6e7408bd4b601c1718:16
GeneralAntillesI'm inclined to blame X-Fade.18:16
GeneralAntillesClearly there are kickbacks involved.18:16
lcuklardman, when you do the lottery, your picture comes up every time, its just you cant enter "lardman" as a number18:17
lardmanprobably payback for my missing karma18:17
crashanddie[16:15] <lardman> he is omnipresent, that's your problem <-- lardman talks about himself in third person18:17
javispedrolcuk: lol18:17
X-FadeEverybody who complains instantly gets karma: -1 ;)18:17
lardmanI like that18:17
crashanddieX-Fade: your honour, I'd like to file a complaint18:17
crashanddieand yet another anti-karma tool :)18:17
GAN900X-Fade, as soon as my Talk karma comes back I'll have it to spare!18:18
javispedrowell, I just refreshed m.o and now VDVsx was there for second time in a row. Time for another X-Files ep? *cue X-Files tune*18:18
GAN900Just you wait!18:18
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javispedroargh, now it's cached for the day I guess.18:18
qwerty12_N810GAN900: It's never gonna come back. Muhahahahaha18:18
* absolute builds a shrine18:18
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crashanddiecommon point between all those on random members: nicknames all begin with a consonant18:19
pupniki wonder what it is called if someone talks about themselves talking about themselves in third person, in third person18:19
javispedrometametadescription?18:19
crashanddiepupnik: schyzostutter18:20
crashanddiepupnik: schyschyzozophrenia18:20
lcuk3rd^2 person,  9th person18:20
javispedrolol18:20
VDVsxjavispedro, I've some privileges now ;)18:20
absolute:)18:20
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javispedroVDVsx: hehe18:20
X-FadeGAN900: http://maemo.org/profile/view/generalantilles/18:20
X-Fade^^^ do check that out ;)18:21
* javispedro films GAN's face18:21
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zerojayN900javis...18:21
absoluteFor the record... these single solar cell battery charger pack things... don't waste your time... this is the biggest piece of junk i've bought for $25 in some time... it needs BRIGHT, direct light... yesterday was the first time i saw the led light come on when it was under the sun and it didn't even get a full charge... its overcast today and its not charging at all :(18:21
recalcatiOne more question: an application for qt4 for maemo (x11) can be ported to qt-embedded ?18:21
* qwerty12_N810 hopes he does not run into javispedro in a bush near him18:21
lardmanX-Fade: has TMO been scrubbed?18:21
pupnikabsolute: thanks18:21
VDVsxbtw X-Fade , do you know who is the responsible for this page/email: http://maemo.org/news/jobs/ ?18:22
lardmanX-Fade: or is now part of discussion?18:22
X-Fadelardman: Nah, it was probably down.18:22
pupnikimpressive bug reporting GAN90018:22
lardmanah ok18:22
X-FadeVDVsx: Me of course18:22
zerojayN900javis.. check the no thanks thread. i had to do it.18:22
absoluteI might buy a more expensive one meant for less direct light to test it out, but cheapie is no-go18:22
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tor2absolute: How big is that thing? Area, I mean.18:23
absolutetiny, umm18:23
alorilI guess there is not yet project like this for Maemo yet? "Canonical developers aim to make Android apps run on Ubuntu" http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/05/canonical-developers-aim-to-make-android-apps-run-on-ubuntu.ars18:23
javispedrozerojay: :D lol18:23
zerojayN900hehehe18:23
alorilalso I guess it will eventually happend -> Maemo is superset18:23
Stskeepsaloril: old - they haven't released anything yet18:23
X-Fadeabsolute: Anthing under 6W, don't bother.18:23
* absolute looks for a ruler to no avail... but its about 2" x 4" or so?18:23
absoluteabout half inch thick18:23
absolutesingle cell18:23
cosmofremantle devs: scratchbox 1 or 2?18:23
absoluteerr, single panel18:24
javispedrocosmo: 1. faster.18:24
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, ahahaha18:24
cosmojavispedro: really, is there real speed advantage?18:24
absolutethe closest thing i have to measure is the battery from my e62... its about the size of that but an inch and a half longer18:24
absolutebp-5l battery18:25
javispedrocosmo: currently, definitely. sb2 was improving though.18:25
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cosmosb2 would be much nicer, but not sure if it will really work18:25
javispedro(or so they say)18:25
recalcatiit seems possible looking at the declaration: "Deploy your Qt for Maemo applications to Symbian, Windows Mobile and embedded Linux"   .   But I imagine that maemo5 run only with some dependencies, included x11.18:25
javispedrocosmo: both work, debian lenny amd64 here.18:25
recalcatiQt for Maemo application can run on embedded linux, that it means qt-embedded18:25
mgedminis the nokia battery naming scheme explained somewhere?18:26
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ShadowJKI wish I could buy a BL-10C in europe18:26
_julianhi18:26
lcukrecalcati, are you a qt developer currently?18:26
_juliananyone here familiar with lightmediascanner?18:26
ShadowJKI'd duct-tape it to my 623018:26
tor2absolute: That area shounds way too small to provide any useful wattage. If you could get one 12"x12" or thereabouts, then maybe.18:26
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Should look a lot better now.18:27
tor2s/shounds/sounds/18:27
infobottor2 meant: absolute: That area sounds way too small to provide any useful wattage. If you could get one 12"x12" or thereabouts, then maybe.18:27
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absolutetor2: there's like a 1400mAh battery inside this thing... that battery charges in the light over so many hours18:27
absoluteand then you charge off of the battery18:27
absolutenot directly from the panel18:27
recalcatilcuk:  no, my normal work is bsp board support. And also I have to understand maemo opportunities for my company. We use qt from 3.3.4 version anyway18:27
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tor2Ok so you really charge from that 1400 mAh battery then.18:27
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tor2Still, the area is small.18:28
absoluteyes18:28
ShadowJKabsolute, all solar panels need direct sunlight. Even if it sits in direct sunlight but is misoriented it will give lots less power :)18:28
lcukrecalcati, well the idea is to simply use qt latest 4.6 or whatever on the device18:28
* tor2 glares at the infobot18:28
ShadowJKovercast is like factor of 10 difference in power output or something...18:28
X-FadeThese massive panels on a roof only do about 70W or so.18:28
ShadowJKyes18:28
lcukdepending on location18:28
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, I'm keeping a screenshot of that around to warn people off from crossing you in the future. :D18:28
X-FadeDon't expect any useful output out of these little ones.18:28
X-FadeThis isn't your casio calculator ;)18:29
absolutethe fact remains, after having it sitting in my window for some time, it doesn't seem to even charge regularly... there are ones with multiple cells though18:29
GeneralAntillesHaha, Jaffa, you suuuck! :P18:29
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javispedroGeneralAntilles: now hope no one at Nokia DPP wasn't watching Karma page and left you without device ;)18:29
recalcatiyes, but, looking at documentation, it seems that qt4.latest is ported to maemo (qwerty input and other mobile optimizations) , but it is x11, and qt-embeeded is fb based18:29
tor2ShadowJK: Some panels can't take direct sunlight though. There are solar cells on my voltmeter, and the user manual says never to put it in direct sunlight. The meter needs so little juice though that just putting it in a lit room is sufficient for hours.18:30
lcukrecalcati, yes, you are best to play in x11 - its where the rest of the apps live18:30
javispedrooh, nokia is going to actually market the n900?18:30
ShadowJKtor2, well the obviously looked at power drain and the amount of light present indoors, and picked a panel big enough, which happened to fit the device thanks to the low power draw :)18:31
Stskeepsjavispedro: looks like it18:31
tor2Yup, the right equipment for the right job18:31
lcukjavispedro, why wouldnt they? its spectacular18:31
ShadowJKjavispedro, question is whether it'll be helpful or not18:31
recalcatilcuk: yes, but my other products use qt4.5 embedded18:31
Stskeepsjavispedro: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=33166 , www.maemoproject.com .. etc18:31
javispedroI though they wouldn't like "the populate" buying step4 of 5.18:32
X-FadeThe movie we saw at the summit of which that project website is a small part, was impressive.18:32
lcukrecalcati, is there really a big difference?   go speak on #qt about it18:32
Robot101recalcati: qt-embedded is end of line now, they're just using (normal) qt in maemo from now on18:32
Robot101so it's qt 4.6 on X1118:32
Stskeepsif they could advertise N97, they can advertise n900.18:32
Stskeeps:P18:32
Robot101not qt-embedded or framebuffer18:32
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javispedroStskeeps: wonder of wonders, N97 is still more expensive than N900 here.18:33
mgedminevery time I drive past a large N97 billboard it reminds me of the n90018:33
mgedminthey look pretty similar from a distance18:33
javispedromgedmin: was thinking exactly the same.18:33
ShadowJKStskeeps, "advertise" as in 1 hour talk about facebooks? ;-)18:33
crashanddiemgedmin: the hint is in the name: "Nokia N-Series"18:33
StskeepsShadowJK: facebook twitter flickr18:33
Stskeeps:P18:33
SpeedEvilIs there a speaking IRC client?18:33
mgedminwhat hint?18:33
crashanddie[16:34] <mgedmin> they look pretty similar from a distance18:34
absolutei don't know of one, i'm sure you could do a plugin to send it to text2speech18:34
mgedminwell, so?  N800 is also "Nokia N-Series", but it doesn't look anywhere close18:34
pupnika cpu speed graph would be fun to see18:34
absolutebut then everyone would talk in the same voice18:34
absolutethat would suck18:34
absoluteyou'd have tow ork that out somehow18:34
mgedminhash nicknames to random voices18:34
vladovghi18:34
mgedminsort of like nick colorization works18:34
recalcatiRobot101: really??? no more qt on frame buffer?18:34
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tor2Just record some folks at the next summit18:35
pupniknie idea mgedmin18:35
mgedminrecalcati: what do you mean by "no more"?18:35
lcukwait.  what.18:35
lcukhttp://www.wimp.com/superconductingtrain/18:35
mgedminmaemo always relied on x1118:35
lcukwatch till end18:35
SpeedEvilmgedmin: Who gets Jessica Rabbit?18:35
Robot101mgedmin: I don't know whether qt on framebuffer is supported, but qt-embedded (ie, qtopia, the whole phone platform based around qt) isn't developed any further18:35
Robot101er, recalcati18:36
recalcatiMy knowledge is qt-x11 != qt-embedded18:36
tor2that page gives me 'flash wanted', but there's flash according to any other site.18:36
Robot101the naming is confusing. qt itself can draw with x11, framebuffer, etc etc18:36
lcukrecalcati, have you done qt framebuffer stuff in maemo before?18:36
recalcatiyes, but the name has chnged many times18:36
tor2flash required actually18:36
Robot101qt-embedded is a bunch of stuff on top of qt, used to be called qtopia, which is for a phone kinda thing18:36
Robot101qt-embedded is end of line18:36
Robot101I don't know whether this makes any difference to whether qt itself will continue to support framebuffer18:37
Robot101but from the perspective of maemo its irrelevant - maemo uses x1118:37
hrwqt/e died long time ago18:37
alorilStskeeps: yeah, what I'm thinking its not Android vs Maemo, but more Android apps also mean eventually more software for Maemo too; personally I like easy 'porting' of Linux apps to Maemo18:37
Robot101so qt on maemo will also use x11, and there will be no qt-embedded18:37
pupnikqt on portables better be faster than qt on desktop18:37
SpeedEvilIt's flux pinning lcuk - the magnetism sort of gets locked in the superconductor - though not really18:37
recalcatiyes, I knew qt-embedded, the old one, is obsolete. but qt 4.5 directly write on fb, anyway18:37
Stskeepsaloril: maemo can fit android apps, android can't fit maemo apps :)18:37
hrwRobot101: you can use qt/e even on x11 - via qvfb which makes it even slower18:37
Robot101recalcati: what are you trying to ask exactly?18:37
alorilStskeeps: right, so Maemo is superset18:38
lcukyeah SpeedEvil its like evil cats with buttered toast taped to their back18:38
recalcatiRobot101: I have some 200Mhz,300Mhz devices, and I'd like to go on w/o x1118:38
recalcatibut, maybe, x11 can be handled as well18:38
recalcatiDa Vinci family18:39
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mgedminhm, developing on a n900 and deploying on custom 200 mhz devices -- probably not a good plan18:39
absoluteI've got my SDK installed, but i've still got no good ideas rattling around this skull for apps i want... each time i think of the things i use daily, i keep remembering most of them are already ported to mamemo anyways...18:39
javispedrolcuk: cool.18:40
pupnikworse than developing on a 3ghz PC and deploying on N810 mgedmin ?18:40
mgedminI've read blog posts claiming that gtk or qt over x11 is faster than gtk or qt over the framebuffer, contrary to popular myths18:40
SpeedEvillcuk: The more commercially interesting fact is that you can do it with only permenant magnets and copper, and get a totally passive track IMO.18:40
recalcatimgedmin: no, instead, it is a good plan. Developing on pc, deploying on N900 the packages, but also integrating in omap and Da Vinci industrial devices.18:40
mgedminah, okay, industrial stuff18:40
mgedminthen you won't stuff it full of fancy effects that need a 600 mhz cpu to run18:40
SpeedEvillcuk: http://www.askmar.com/Inductrack/inductrack.html18:40
recalcatimgedmin: anyway, I'm trying to understand and, I hope, the N900 will give me some help.18:41
* javispedro abuses maglev in openttd18:41
recalcatiomap is 600Mhz armv7 , but Da Vinci 300Mhz armv5, but I'll do different things18:41
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Khertan_Hello !18:42
javispedrohi18:42
lcukhi Khertan_N900 \o/18:42
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Khertan_heya lcuk18:42
Woolyhey all18:42
Khertan_hi Wooly18:42
lcukhi Wooly18:42
lcukyou enjoying yourself Khertan_18:43
Khertan_a question, someone know if "edit" icon come from the theme18:43
Woolydoes anyone know why this Python code would give a GTK_IS_TEXT_LAYOUT assertion error? http://pastie.org/66214418:43
Khertan_lcuk:  :)18:43
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lcukgot your sdk working on device now?18:43
Woolythe assertion error occurs on line 518:43
Khertan_lcuk: PyGTKEditor isn't finish18:43
Khertan_lcuk: but it s in progress18:43
lcukbut its coming - i had it installed a while back18:44
lcukyeah i know :)18:44
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Khertan_i ve finnaly put auto rotation support :)18:44
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Khertan_and ... nope ... without doing a fork of gtksourceview18:44
Khertan_just tweaking a bit the signal18:44
* lardman heads for home18:44
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Khertan_i ve take a look in the hildon.textview source code in gitorius :)18:45
Khertan_Wooly: i ll look18:45
WoolyKhertan_: thanks :) I'm sure it's something stupid18:45
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mgedminWooly: no, but in gtimelog I did it differently for some reason: http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mgedmin/gtimelog/trunk/annotate/head:/src/gtimelog/gtimelog.py#L110418:46
absolutei'm going to have to brush up on my c a bit too, my job entails a lot of java... so at this point, GTK is the best route for something that will run both on the mobile as well as my regular desktop environment? I'm kinda confused though about the delineation between hildon stuff and GTK18:46
mgedminhildon is built on top of gtk18:47
absoluteit seems like they both are involved with windowing and such18:47
absoluteahh18:47
mgedminhildon api functions have names with hildon in the name18:47
lcukhildon is a set of gtk classes and components18:47
mgedminit adds custom widgets on top of base gtk widgets18:47
absoluteoh ok, nice18:47
tor2absolute: You just replace some key calls with some others (hildon-specific), and includes a couple of extra header files18:47
Woolymgedthanks, I'll take a look18:47
Woolymgedmin: thanks :D18:47
Woolysilly tab complete18:47
mgedminI wonder why I didn't use scroll_to_iter18:48
Khertan_scroll_to_iter18:48
mgedmineither I didn't know about it (unlikely), or it was added in a newer gtk version (possible) or I had problems for it (possible)18:48
Khertan_is a method of gtk.TextView18:48
Khertan_not gtk.TextBuffer18:48
Woolyself.debug is a gtk.TextBuffer18:49
mgedminyes?18:49
mgedminso is scroll_to_mark, iirc18:49
Khertan_sorry i read  self.debug_buffer instead of  self.debug18:49
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Woolyself.debug_buffer = self.debug.get_buffer()18:49
Woolyah that's cool (Y)18:49
mgedmins/for/with/18:49
absoluteSo with hildon now being a part of gnome, does that mean that those apps will just work natively in gnome on my desktop?18:49
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mgedminabsolute: if you're asking whether you can write one piece of code and have it look native in maemo 5 and in desktop linux, then: no18:50
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Khertan_Wooly: are you sure that your buffer is connected to the textview ?18:50
absoluteok, so basically, you'd build the GTK app, and then wrap it (or modify it) with some hildon specific stuff and rebuild for the portable18:50
WoolyKhertan_: http://pastie.org/66215518:51
absolutefair enough18:51
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mgedminnot just modify, practically redesign the ui18:51
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mgedmindifferent screen size, different dpi, different paradigms18:51
Woolymgedmin: that depends on whether your desktop has a really small screen ;)18:51
mgedmine.g. desktop is keyboard-navigable, maemo 5 isn't18:51
Khertan_couldn't be more simple18:51
Khertan_strange18:51
absoluteahh ok18:51
X-Fadeqwerty12_N810: Screenshot!18:51
Woolymgedmin: and you cant afford a keyboard :D18:51
lcukmgedmin, absolute was saying about designing an app using gtk18:51
mgedminthere were good talks about this topic at the summit18:51
mgedminthe slides are in the wiki18:52
tor2That been said, it's still possible to design&test on the desktop. You just start out with 800x480 in mind.18:52
lcukthat can imply making it as you suggest18:52
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qwerty12_N810X-Fade: Crap, I didn't know it appears in the downloads listing... Sure thing :)18:52
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lcukyes tor218:52
absoluteoh yeah... I guess as long as some sort of MVC route is followed, it just means rewriting the view classes18:53
lcukand different dpi thinking18:53
tor2yep18:53
lcukso biiiig fonts and biiiig buttons18:53
X-Fadeqwerty12_N810: Yeah, it gets imported automatically now.18:53
lcukand not thinking "oooh an 8pt font will look good for my stuff18:53
tor2With my little stuff I start on the desktop and then at some point I move over to the real thing.18:53
lcukthink "mmm maybe 24pt will do"18:53
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* lcuk designs in visual basic :$18:54
Khertan_Wooly: i didn't see anything wrong18:54
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absolutehehe18:54
SpeedEvilIf you've got a 21" monitor, just back off to 6 times your normal phone viewing distance, and you're fine.18:54
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lcuklol SpeedEvil18:54
absolutevb--18:54
lcukgood idea18:54
lcukvb++ actually18:54
* tor2 eyes the very long keyboard cable on the shelf18:54
absolutekarma vb?18:54
javispedro~karma vb18:54
infobotvb has neutral karma18:54
WoolyKhertan_: this thing is annoying me, as it's crashing my app :(18:54
lcukabsolute, look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hGUKICDeok  the presentation part was laid out in vb18:55
lcukdynamically loaded18:55
Khertan_Wooly: i can understand ... i pass 4 days trying to understand how to make working a gtksourceview in a pannablearea18:55
Khertan_Wooly: did you have the complete code somewhere ... i ll try to launch it on my nit and try to see what s wrong18:56
lcukKhertan_, why do you need a pannable for a source editor?18:56
mgedmingoogling for GTK_IS_TEXT_LAYOUT hints that it could be a bug18:56
Khertan_lcuk: because using small scroll bar is a real pain on maemo518:56
mgedminin gtk/pygtk18:56
crashanddieKhertan_: you should've used Qt18:56
_berto_where does the n900 media player take cover images from ?18:56
crashanddieKhertan_: o/18:56
mgedminlcuk: panning rules18:57
mgedmineverything should be pannable18:57
WoolyKhertan_: I dont think I can disclose the entire source, as it's a big secret18:57
Khertan_crashanddie: binding not available yet on fremantle ... no pyside, no pyqt18:57
WoolyKhertan_: the company that I work for wouldn't be happy :(18:57
Jaffa_berto_: The MediaArt spec. There's also a Google Images plugin pvanhoof wrote, but I need to submit a patch for that.18:57
absolutehuh, that whole presentation is just a vb app? wow... yeah, my least favorite coding task is setting up windowing stuff, but there are typically wysiwyg tools to do that stuff18:57
lcukmgedmin, pannable only works with pannable hardware and its non obvious to a user18:57
mgedminWooly: they haven't yet seen the light of open source?18:57
Khertan_Wooly: ha ... or make just a simple example18:57
Woolyno open source yet :D18:57
mgedminlcuk: consistent ui paradigms == goodness18:58
pvanhoofNote that we are reviewing for harmattan what to do with the album-art provider DBus API18:58
mgedminmost fremantle apps have panning18:58
pvanhoofJust FYI18:58
WoolyI'll make one later :D18:58
pvanhoofThat this is uncertain atm18:58
Woolyhome time now though :P18:58
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Woolythanks for the input guys!18:58
pvanhoofalbum-art storage spec should remain in harmattan18:58
pvanhoofat leas afaik18:58
lcukmgedmin, iphone twitch isnt - trying to pan and accidentally clicking content underneath because it wasnt registered correctly == badness18:58
Jaffapvanhoof: thanks for the info18:58
pvanhoofnp18:58
Khertan_and without trying it ... i think that it s not useable18:58
* mgedmin likes this version of modest a lot18:58
_berto_Jaffa: I ask because I copied a few albums to the n900 and I can see cover images for some of them18:58
Khertan_but when i see xterm18:58
Khertan_it s really good18:58
Jaffapvanhoof: I'll send you the Google Images JSON patch. Not been able to do as much as I wanted (e.g. XB-Maemo-Icon-26 and XB-Maemo-Display-Name in debian/control)18:58
_berto_but none of the mp3 have albums in their tags (that I know)18:58
tor2Wooly: Try to make a small example that reproduces the problem anyway, it's always a good approach to find problems -- it can sometimes show that the problem is entirely different, or an obvious cause pops up.18:59
mgedminlcuk: clicking isn't harmful when you're editing source code, so this argument doesn't apply18:59
Jaffa_berto_: There are heuristics well outlined in a wiki page linked to from a blog post by konttori or pvanhoof18:59
lcukit does elsewhere18:59
lcukand if you are tryign to select code and it pans instead18:59
_berto_Jaffa: ah thanks18:59
lcukis frustrating18:59
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RobertH[AU]lardman|gone: i got octave compiled! used libf2c and fort 7718:59
mgedminlcuk: it's even more frustrating when you're trying to pan and it starts selecting19:00
mgedminI speak from personal experience19:00
lcukyes!19:00
lcukagreed19:00
RobertH[AU]lardman|gone: took a while to get the compile options though19:00
wazdStskeeps: oh, Claes is back :)19:00
Stskeepscool19:00
Khertan_[17:58]  * mgedmin likes this version of modest a lot <<< i ve still problem with gmail19:00
Stskeepsyeah, i saw he was working on intro videos19:00
mgedminlcuk: idea: fingerprint recognition19:00
lcukhah19:00
absolutethought about that19:00
mgedminuse your left hand's fingers for panning, right hand for selection19:00
absolutethrough the webcam or something?19:00
lcukcant - i once wanted to do pseudo fingerprint scanner19:00
X-FadeJust use proximity sensor as modifier.19:01
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Khertan_lol19:01
mgedminwould need *very* sensitive multitouch hardware ;)19:01
mgedminx-fade's idea is cool19:01
X-FadeThumb on proximitoy sensor-> select ;)19:01
javispedrowhy not do same thing browser did?19:01
mgedminseeing as I now unexpectedly have 26 megs free in root maybe I should apt-get install ioquake319:01
RobertH[AU]hey guys, if anyone is looking to get octave working on maemo 5 i started a page on the wiki http://wiki.maemo.org/How_to_Install_Octave . ATM it is a rough outline. It has all the information you need. I hope to add links to the files tomorrow or soemthing19:02
mgedminjavispedro: agreed --- or xterm19:02
lcuki dont see why for a code editor/something expecting complete mixed mode you cant just use a regular joe scrollbar19:02
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mgedminbecause regular joe scrollbars *suck*19:02
mgedminhard to use even with a stylus19:02
javispedroi'd prefer both apps to use browser's way. platform genericity and all that.19:02
mgedminhm, maybe a gesture19:02
wazdStskeeps: it's cool to see how many designers came to maemo after n900 promos :)19:03
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mgedmindrag from the right to get a wide scrollbar19:03
Khertan_lcuk: hard to use with finger and stylus19:03
lcukthat same sensitive area could just be a little button you know19:03
Khertan_i found that it s hard to use stylus on n900 with pygtkeditor scroll bar19:03
Khertan_and using larger scrollbar take too many place19:04
recalcatimgedmin: bye bye, my pc is installing scratchbox and I go home. thx of all19:04
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mgedmingood luck19:04
Khertan_lcuk: when you will try the new pygtkeditor (v3.0.0) you will like it !19:05
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lcuki like it anyway :D19:05
pvanhoofJaffa, awesome, if you want access to the gitorious repo for the google-images-provider project, just ask mvo, frade, or .. dno who's in charge of maemo.gitorous.orgt19:07
Jaffapvanhoof: ta19:07
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* lardman ponders osso_abook_filter_model_set_visible_func()19:21
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SpeedEviloooh19:24
SpeedEvilnokia.co.uk - email19:24
SpeedEvil'Once the product is available, we will ship your order per your  instructions. If you are paying by credit or debit card, you will not be  charged until the item is shipped or confirmed delivered to you.19:24
SpeedEvilWe will send you another email when the item ships. '19:24
SpeedEvilAnd it got charged immediately I made the order.19:24
SpeedEvilMaybe I confused it by adding a battery19:24
Solarionwhat's the common paper size in Europe? A1?19:24
SpeedEvila419:25
CorsacA419:25
SolarionA4.19:25
Solariontjamls/19:25
SpeedEvilEach size doubles over the last, so A1 is quite large indeed19:25
SolarionOr, Thanks, with my right hand over 1 letter. :)19:25
SpeedEvillarge enough to hide behind.19:25
Solarionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_size_illustration2_with_letter_and_legal.svg19:25
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* Solarion misses Europe19:25
* suihkulokki hates all the american-oriented software that insist printing in letter size19:26
fiferboylardman: Ah, filter models are so much fun19:26
lardmanno docs for that fn afaict19:27
absoluteSpeedEvil: when i did the nokiausa order, they had held the funds for the entire order, but had not actually charged it... on my online banking, the full funds were still in my account, but the available funds were the full minus the order amount19:27
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SpeedEvilabsolute: this is a debit card19:27
absoluteyeah19:27
SpeedEvilabsolute: so it comes straight out of my bank account19:28
fiferboylardman: You can see the code for that function though, right?19:28
lardmanI don;t think the library source is available, so no19:29
absolutei understand, but if its charged like a credit card, it works the same way... try going to the gas station sometime and paying at the pump...19:29
fiferboyAh19:29
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absoluteyou'll see sometimes they hold funds19:29
absolutemy nokiausa order was used with a debit too, charged as a visa19:29
SpeedEvilabsolute: It's not - there is no facility to do that with debit cards as I understand it.19:30
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absolutebut i switched that over to amazon already19:30
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SpeedEvilabsolute: maybe it's different in the US - debit != credit card - they somewhat go through different systems.19:30
absoluteSpeedEvil: your debit card can be used as debit with a pin number, or as a credit19:30
absoluteyeah19:30
absolutehere it must be different19:30
absolutemy debit card has a visa logo19:30
SpeedEvilyou can't get credit on that card.19:30
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absoluteyou can't get credit19:31
absolutetrue19:31
absolutebut my bank balance acts as my credit limit19:31
fiferboylardman: It looks like it does the same thing as this http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/5.0-final/gtk/GtkTreeModelFilter.html#gtk-tree-model-filter-set-visible-func19:31
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fiferboylardman: Given a user function that returns true or false based on whether you want to see a row or not19:31
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absolutei'm just saying, it may look like it was charged, but not actually have been charged... and that's exactly how my order through them showed up19:32
absolutei wouldn't count on it as a sign that they're shipping it right away is all19:32
lardmanah, good call, am far too tired19:32
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fiferboylardman: I have done some of the tree model stuff in Gtk, if you need a hand with anything19:33
crashanddieVDVsx: I won't be able for the extras-testing marathon19:34
lardmanthanks, will give you a shout :)19:34
crashanddieVDVsx: I'm on a business trip for a couple of weeks in the US, and other than being extremely jet-lagged, I'll also be extremely drunk19:34
VDVsxcrashanddie, heheh19:34
crashanddieVDVsx: but I love the idea, and regret I won't be part of it19:34
fiferboylardman: I assume you want to use that function to filter out people who are not online?19:35
hrwbye19:35
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lardmanhrw|gone: bye19:35
lardmanfiferboy: yeah, I just want to see those who are online, then draw them on a map19:36
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Khertan_good night19:36
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fiferboyThe filter function should work.  IIRC it will act dynamically when the tree model is changed (assuming the correct signals are sent out)19:36
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VDVsxcrashanddie, I'm also visiting the US, but this week19:37
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lardmanhmm, I wonder if it will actually return anything Tree related though19:37
lardmanmore likely ABook related19:37
crashanddieVDVsx: watch out, coming back to the old continent is horrible for jet-alg19:37
crashanddies/alg/lag/19:37
infobotcrashanddie meant: VDVsx: watch out, coming back to the old continent is horrible for jet-lag19:37
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bkonrathhi everyone - quick newbie question: where can I find the source for the on-screen keyboard that is used in the N900?19:38
crashanddieVDVsx: at the 2 in the afternoon "I don't want to have lunch, I want to sleep". At 4 in the morning "woohoo, wanna go for a game of tennis?"19:38
VDVsxcrashanddie, first time there, so I really don't know :)19:38
crashanddiethere's one thing though, waking up early when in the US is very easy19:39
GeneralAntillesVDVsx, where you going?19:39
crashanddie(because 8AM is basically lunch time for us)19:39
VDVsxGeneralAntilles, CA19:39
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GAN900VDVsx, what part?19:40
aSIMULAturdon't tell me19:40
aSIMULAtursanta clara :P19:40
crashanddieVDVsx: fremont?19:40
VDVsxGAN900, san francisco/mountain view19:40
crashanddiemountain view?19:40
crashanddieheh19:40
GAN900Ah, that'll be nice.19:41
crashanddieI love how everyone says "SF", but really, they're an hour drive away :19:41
crashanddie:P19:41
luke-jrbkonrath: probably can't19:41
aSIMULAtursame shit different pile19:41
qwerty12_N810VDVsx: GSoC reward?19:41
VDVsxqwerty12_N810, yup, paid by google ;)19:41
bkonrathluke-jr: really!? why not?19:41
pH5I'd like to use some multithreading in my app, but as soon as I add the gdk_threads_init() call, the thing hangs when started in the SDK from the application launcher. Running from the console with run-standalone.sh still works. Has anybody seen such a behaviour? Modest and the contacts app don't start either.19:41
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qwerty12_N810VDVsx: Hehe, nice19:42
GAN900Remember, SF is always about 50°F and everything around it will be hotter.19:42
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GAN900So bring layers. ;)19:42
luke-jrbkonrath: because Maemo is closed19:42
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lardmanpH5: don't test in sb? ;)19:42
Stskeepsbkonrath: there are some very similar open source example ones19:42
GAN900bkonrath, the keyboard examples are around somewhere.19:42
Stskeepsin the sdk19:43
pH5lardman: is this supposed not to work?19:43
lardmandunno, works for me on-device, I never test in the SDL19:43
lardmanSDK19:43
javispedrowell, x86 sdk should work19:43
crashanddieGeneralAntilles: I want stricter thread closing rules on tmo as well19:43
javispedroarmel... here be dragons.19:43
GAN900luke-jr, at least try to avoid spreading misinformation when you don't know. . . .19:43
lardmancrashanddie: like what?19:43
crashanddieGeneralAntilles: basically, when there's 10 messages that aren't related to the original topic, split the topic and kill the old one19:43
luke-jrGAN900: was I wrong?19:43
GeneralAntillescrashanddie, when it's 10 pages of back-and-forth between christexaport and one of the Jays it's time to lock.19:44
luke-jrGAN900: I'm pretty sure I saw someone mention that being specifically a closed part19:44
lardmanI'm never sure when I should use the hand-of-lardman to close/kill/etc19:44
bkonrathStskeeps, GAN900: do you have a link or can tell me where I can search?19:45
lardmanI don;t want to be seen as a nasty demi-lardGod19:45
Stskeepsbkonrath: repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0/free19:45
Stskeepsin h19:45
zerojayN900if you want attention, wear a pacman hat outside.19:46
GeneralAntilleslardman, I'm going to start reporting threads I think need closing.19:46
zerojayN900i/19:46
zerojayN900argh19:46
crashanddiegotta run, talk later19:46
dnearyAh, I remember19:46
lardmanGeneralAntilles: go for it19:47
zerojayN900ive gone two blocks and was asked 5 times to take pics with people.19:47
dnearyIt was that chat we had in the bar that sjgadsby was thinking about19:47
GeneralAntilleszerojayN900, attention whore, too? :P19:47
zerojayN900lol19:47
zerojayN900not at all normally but i gotta get it home.19:47
* lardman will have to remember to check his gmail account for GAN's commands ;)19:47
cosmohey californians, how is the weather there around new year? i'm coming there for two weeks.19:47
GeneralAntillesDooooo myyyy biddiiiiing!19:47
qwerty12_N810...and then press delete ;P19:47
cosmoi read that average temperature is about 10 degrees c, but is it hot during day?19:48
lcukwazd, theres a lot of interest :) thats a good thing, get your whip out and organise them all (neatly of course with balanced space between)19:48
bkonrathStskeeps: thanks! does maemo have an svn or git repository?19:49
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absolute11:48 < Stskeeps> bkonrath: repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0/free19:50
GAN900cosmo, depends where you are.19:50
Stskeepsbkonrath: maemo.gitorious.org is getting populated19:50
cosmoGAN900: road trip around SF and LA area19:51
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cosmonot planned more than that19:51
GAN900cosmo, SF is pretty much always 50-60°F19:51
cosmoand as finns we'd like some warm temperature19:51
GAN900and windy19:51
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GAN900The rest should be more variable.19:52
cosmook, pretty cold19:52
GAN900Pretty much it's cold on the water and warmer inland.19:52
GAN900Inland is pretty dry so the temps vary a lot day to night.19:52
cosmomaybe we'll take a tour inland19:52
GAN900Highly recommended.19:53
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GAN900I'd consider hitting up Yosemite if you have an extra day.19:53
bkonrathStskeeps: awesome! thanks for your help :-)19:53
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cosmoonly four hours drive.. not that bad19:54
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cosmoany other recommendations?19:55
zerojayN900fucking bus is taking forever.19:55
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lardmanpublic transport19:55
GAN900cosmo, make sure you drive along the coast heading south out of SF19:56
zerojayN900and being a fat guy in a huge pacman hat.19:56
GAN900US-101 is about as scenic as it gets.19:56
cosmook, we'll do19:56
GAN900Stop in Santa Cruz19:56
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zerojayN900haha, scared the shit out of someonel19:57
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GAN900Make sure you do Alcatraz in SF. Also check out Golden Gate Park.19:58
GeneralAntillesThis place is really badass: http://www.exploratorium.edu/19:58
cosmois alcatraz that good? i've seen the rock already :-)20:00
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GeneralAntillescosmo, you've done the tour?20:00
GeneralAntillesThe whole thing is pretty touristy, but it's fun all the same.20:01
cosmothe movie20:01
GeneralAntillesYeah, do the tour. ;)20:01
cosmook20:01
GeneralAntillesIt doesn't take that long and you'll want to see SF's waterfront anyway.20:01
zerojayN900i wish i had time to really checkout sf when i was there.20:02
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lardmanoh, why can't I see the docs for TpConnectionPresenceType ?20:02
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GeneralAntillescosmo, the Maritime Museum is pretty good, too. http://www.maritime.org/index.htm20:02
GeneralAntillesEspecially the Hyde Street Pier.20:02
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GeneralAntillescosmo, I'd also consider going into at least one SF mall.20:03
GeneralAntillescosmo, well, depending on where you're from. ;)20:03
* lardman notes these down for his proposed visit to SF (when he gets round to booking it)20:04
cosmoGeneralAntilles: tampere, finland20:04
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qwerty12_N810SF mall it is...20:04
GeneralAntillesThe malls in SF are utterly excessive.20:04
cosmowe visited some very sorry mall in florida road trip last year, but it wasn't very interesting20:05
GeneralAntillesMost of the malls in Florida suck. ;)20:05
GeneralAntillesWhich, might I ask?20:05
qwerty12_N810s/ the malls in //20:05
qwerty12_N810+s20:05
lcuklol20:05
zerojayN900lol.. someone just asked me if i was "irl trolling"20:05
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lardmanah, TpConnectionPresenceType is from Telepathy :)20:06
GeneralAntilleszerojayN900, lol.20:06
cosmocan't remember which one.. i think it was somewhere on the west side of florida20:06
cosmowe just went to eat in pizzeria (lousy pizza) and walked around the mall20:06
GeneralAntillesYeah, there's maybe one respectable mall on the west coast.20:06
GeneralAntillesInternational in Tampa.20:06
zerojayN900Nokia N900 is Pacman's official phone.20:06
lardmanqwerty12_N810: oi! sort it out and get a passport so you can rock up in Amsterdam before giving Florida abuse! ;)20:06
GeneralAntillesBut it doesn't compare to SF with its live mannequins. ;)20:07
zerojayN900at least that's what im telling them20:07
qwerty12_N810lardman: You're not even from Florida!20:07
cosmoit was some random mall on road side, not even near any big city20:07
lardmanno, but I'm going next year20:07
qwerty12_N810"Oi!" yourself20:07
lardmanand it may well suck, who knows20:07
GeneralAntillesThis is probably obvious, but don't even consider trying to take a car into the city in SF. ;)20:07
cosmoso the public transportation works?20:08
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GeneralAntillesIt does in most large US cities.20:08
GeneralAntillesCalifornia also has a reasonable train network for getting from city-to-city.20:08
fiferboylardman: http://maemo.org/api_refs/5.0/5.0-final/telepathy-glib/telepathy-glib-enums.html#TpConnectionPresenceType20:08
lcukhey lardman, you seen this cool push n900 project?  http://wouwlabs.com/blogs/jeez/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/presentation_pov.pdf20:08
lardmanfiferboy: yeah, found it in the end, thanks :)20:08
fiferboylardman: Oops, didn't realize I wasn't scrolled down :|20:09
cosmowe're going to rent a car anyway (4 or 5 people coming) but we'll leave it outside the city20:09
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mgedmin900hey, I just realized why the n900 is better than an iphone20:09
mgedmin900integrated stand20:09
GeneralAntillescosmo, I'd recommend an Impala.20:09
lcukthats all?20:09
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RST38hyou call THAT a stand?20:09
qwerty12_N810mgedmin900: It has, *gasp*, buttons other than a d-pad?20:10
lardmanwow, someone attached one to a bike wheel, pretty daring20:10
GeneralAntillesand definitely go with Hertz.20:10
lardmanfiferboy: np, thanks for the moral support :)20:10
lcuklardman, i almost spat out my coffee when i saw they were planning it using liqbase20:10
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lardmanmgedmin900: have you actually used the stand...? ;)20:10
lcukit was buried in amongst a canola update20:10
mgedmin900oh you unbelievers20:11
mgedmin900give the stand a chance20:11
RST38hHow are you using the stand?20:11
mgedmin900it's better than the 770's20:11
lcuklet it stand on its own merits20:11
RST38hPlease confess20:11
lcukunless there is a gentle breeze20:11
cosmoit's a pity only new cars are available for rent.. we'd prefer some old us car as gas is practically free there20:11
RST38hlcuk: can it? =(20:11
lcukmy device sits in its cradle anyway20:11
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GeneralAntillesmgedmin900, the stand sucks.20:11
lcukat the right angle20:12
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lcukand is usable at that angle20:12
GeneralAntillesIt's more like having a really sad joke attached to the back of your device.20:12
lcuknahh its useful20:12
RST38hThe only way you can use this "stand" is by sticking a bodily appendage under it, in order to hold the tablet20:12
lcukfor playing movies20:12
RST38hSo, it is not really a stand but a handle :)20:12
cosmothe stand sucks less than no stand.. at least you can put the phone on table and see what's on screen with it20:12
GeneralAntillescosmo, if you ever do take the car into the city, never buy gas there.20:12
mgedmin900the tv out is useful for playing movies20:12
lcuk+1 cosmo20:12
mgedmin900the stand is for reading books20:13
GeneralAntillesIt's usually at least %10-%20 more expensive.20:13
lardmancosmo: don't tell them petrol is free, they won't believe you ;)20:13
RST38htv out is nice indeed20:13
lcukmgedmin900, only with a big tv nearby20:13
lcukbut thats hardly mobile20:13
RST38hAnyone tried Quake3 with a video output already?20:13
SpeedEvillcuk: it'd be nice if the FM transmitter could be overclocked to UHF :)20:13
mgedmin900ooh20:13
absoluteRST38h: there was a video of it20:13
lardmanI can't get the Q3 Linux installer .sh to work20:13
cosmowe'll pour some gas to the ground every time we refuel, just because it's so cheap :-)20:13
qwerty12_N810RST38h: There's a YouTube video20:13
Corsacmgedmin900: I guess the stand can be useful for playing movies20:13
Corsacmgedmin900: in the RST38h way20:13
suihkulokkithe stand is great for attaching cute and furry things like all the asians do20:13
lcukSpeedEvil, the thought of wireless tv out makes me drool20:13
lardmancosmo: lol, yeah20:13
lcuki think that would rock20:13
GeneralAntillescosmo, if you want to rent a larger sedan, a Charger might be an option.20:14
lcukperfect for presentations20:14
SpeedEvillcuk: yeah20:14
qwerty12_N810suihkulokki: This one doesn't...20:14
lardmansuihkulokki: there's a proper hole for that you know?20:14
mgedmin900I'm waiting for ioquake to get a data files downloader20:14
SpeedEvillcuk: though it'd have to be digital wireless TV out in many parts of the world20:14
Stskeepshello kitty on tv \o/20:14
lardmanFM transmitter in car is not so hot - works fine in the house though20:14
lcuki dont care what type of tv out it is20:14
lcukbut wireless would be great20:14
lardmanneed to look into the FM receiver it has built in to auto-change-channels20:15
suihkulokkilardman: you can attach many many more to the stand than to the official hole20:15
lcukhaving it wired is lightyears ahead of previous20:15
lardmansuihkulokki: very true :)20:15
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suihkulokkithink HUNDREDS of hello kittys on a n900!20:15
lardmansuihkulokki: have to be careful of my monkey getting in the way of the LEDs though ;)20:15
absolutehahaha20:15
lardmanor similar :)20:15
javispedrodid you get to "fix" the feature where it won't let you use it with the charger?20:15
lardmannot tried that20:15
cosmohow are hotels in california? in florida the cheap road side hotels were surprisingly good and cheap when we learnt to use the discount coupons20:16
GeneralAntillesGoddamnit, Nokia put the lanyard hole on the wrong end.20:16
Vulcanismake your own20:16
lardmando you have a lanyard?20:16
GeneralAntillescosmo, they're pretty much the same.20:16
wjt