IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2009-10-17

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GAN900Why torn, Stskeeps?00:00
javispedroas for myself... so far I think I'll get it. not this month though.00:00
woglindejavis I would like to see the numbers how many it will buy for 500 euros00:00
GAN900Use the loaner as yours, let the wiff use the discounted one. :P00:00
javispedrowoglinde: it all depends on "when"00:01
Stskeepsjavispedro: issue is really if i should keep it as developer device, pass it on to a needy developer, or what to do..00:01
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StskeepsGAN900: she does actually want one00:01
woglindelets see if my company will buy some00:01
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javispedroStskeeps: hard decision then, but if you plan to stay here I'd say you'd "enjoy" having a n900 when the 6 months pass by...00:02
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javispedros/pass by/come around00:02
javispedroin fact, you and most of would enjoy you having a n900 then ;)00:03
woglindeearly adaptors lalalalala00:03
javispedrolalalalalal can't hear you lalalalala00:04
* RST38h moos again00:05
javispedrohi RST38h00:05
RST38hAnyone knows an easy way to access proximity sensor?00:05
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RST38hHeya javis, wanna power-saving hint?00:05
javispedrohow's the emus going? still banging omapfb directly?00:05
javispedroRST38h, why not?00:05
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javispedroi'm considering ditching sdl and going your way (gtk + omapfb)00:05
RST38hjavis: well, I bang fb0 when in full screen mode. It works. And an hour ago, I managed to fully cut off power consumption when inactive00:06
RST38hMine isn't really omapfb any more, just plain fb000:06
javispedrotoo many bugs in hgw, plus zeemote lib requiring glib also may "help" me choose gtk00:06
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RST38hjavis: Anyways, in order to completely freeze things, wait for focus-out on your app window00:07
javispedroRST38h: i found out hgw has a provision for powersaving that consists in blocking in dbus receive call00:07
javispedroup to a second only, tho.00:07
RST38hjavis: then shut down sound, stop any timers you are using to sync (setitimer and friends)00:07
javispedrowell, up to two seconds if you add system+session busses.00:07
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RST38hjavis: and do gtk_main_loop_iteration() in a while loop until focus returns00:08
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Khertan__hi again00:08
javispedroRST38h: ah, you're making me remember why game devs don't choose gtk ;P00:08
RST38hjavis: this will nicely block until focus returns00:08
RST38hjavis: come one, gtk is ok00:08
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RST38hjavis: you wrap it away and it is fine00:08
Khertan__homeip is available in extras-testing00:08
RST38hSeen it =)00:09
Khertan__py2deb is availale in extras testing00:09
javispedroit would help me solve "the input problem" in dosbox (the international one, not the focus one)00:09
javispedrosigh I want my opengles 2 book.00:09
RST38hjavis: Look at my EMULib source code if you decide to use Gtk based framework00:10
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woglindejavis why not qt?00:10
RST38hjavis: (the only things you really need from gtk is event loop and a GtkImage)00:10
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Khertan__modest on n900 have a nicer ui ... but still not useable with gmail00:10
* RST38h though gmail was ok?00:11
woglindere pupnik00:11
RST38hNowadays, it is only pop3 that is screwed isn't it?00:11
Khertan__no email retrieved since 5 days00:11
javispedrowoglinde: no answer, really. I have nearly the same experience with both (one app = 3 o 4 dialogs = 24 hours work) ;)00:11
RST38hprobably hung00:11
Khertan__i use imap00:11
woglindejavis hu?????00:11
RST38hyea, gmail is imap and it seems to work so far00:11
Khertan__i ve restart the n900 since00:11
javispedrowoglinde: that I don't have any real reason to prefer gtk over qt right now.00:11
RST38hyou can also kill modest hanging in memory00:12
javispedrowoglinde: so if you have any reason for qt... (not futuristic ;) )00:12
woglindejavis qt-designer00:12
RST38hwoglinde: anyone seriously using that?00:12
woglindeyes me00:12
wazd_VDVsx: ping? :)00:12
javispedroI have to say that from all gui designers, qt-designer is best, hands down.00:12
woglindeneeded some time to figure some stuff out00:12
javispedrostill, it's an automated gui designer.00:12
GAN900Give me your secrets!00:12
woglindebut now its cool00:12
woglindeI only make the .ui00:13
woglindeand can use this in my python proggie00:13
* lcuk coughs and compares it to vb and still finds it complex00:13
Khertan__GAN900 ?00:13
javispedrolcuk: yes :(00:13
lcukit needs streamlining00:13
lcukand specific tablet oriented project types00:13
GAN900Khertan_, how'd you get tab, etc working?00:13
lcukwith full packaging etc included00:13
javispedroevery tutorial I've following forces me to create custom widgets.00:13
lcukso someone can walk up and create a qt app quickly and easily for maemo00:14
javispedrobut I want to do it the ugly way and just put the whole app logic in the form itself >:)00:14
Khertan__GAN900tabs for what ?00:14
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woglindelcuk feel free to send in a mameo template00:14
lcukwoglinde, it needs more than a template00:14
javispedrolcuk: tried qt creator?00:14
lcukit needs to communicate with the build process properly00:14
woglindewould be a first step00:14
javispedrotry it.00:14
lcukand debug etc00:15
woglindejavis he did00:15
lcuki am talking about creator lol ;)00:15
javispedrodesigner != creator though.00:15
lcuki was speaking to one of the devs at the summit00:15
lcuko_O then lol00:15
lcukis it better ? :D00:15
woglindedesigner is only for gui00:15
javispedrodesigner is for gui only. it does not even touch code.00:15
Khertan__ tabulation in irc ? on webchat ? i did use it :)00:15
woglindecreator makes more00:15
lcukhaha javispedro even closer to my current use of vb00:16
lcukload up vb, make standard forms00:16
lcukclick export00:16
Khertan__but tab is available at fn+sym00:16
javispedroi found qt creator nice. a bit on the "trivial" side though.00:17
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javispedro(not really much featured... I mean)00:17
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lcukwell creator includes designer, so we are still on same page00:18
javispedrostill, I'm gonna keep with gtk, just because I'm going to use it as a x11 wrapper and that's about it, thus no need to keep the libs loaded.00:18
Khertan__really, modest works four day with gmail and now it doesn t retrieve anymore new mail ... strange00:18
woglindelcuk hm right00:18
lcukfrom technical basis it works, it just doesnt get a project to this side easily enough00:18
Khertan__noone really use it in imap00:18
* lcuk never uses email from mobile00:18
javispedrolcuk: but qt creator comes "near" the VB dream. "double click" on a button in a form to edit "command1_clicked()" code nearly works.00:19
lcukit actually asks to rename the object from the quick look i did00:19
javispedronearly= it's not double click, but rather right click, go to slot....00:19
lcukselect slot00:20
javispedrobut it opens the code editor and fills in the headers.00:20
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lcukget error message couldnt find xyz00:20
lcuknot for me :D00:20
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lcuki am trying again later00:20
javispedromaybe you were using beta :P ?00:20
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Khertan__haha lcuk00:20
Khertan__i say the same things00:20
lcuki wouldnt mind looking at whether i can parse qt .ui files and produce a liq* layout00:20
pupnik_hmm xchat on n900 lagging badly00:21
lcukjavispedro, i redownloaded from qt today00:21
javispedrolcuk: dunno, i am just opening a new project..00:21
pupnik_last thing i saw is RST38h: "Nowadays, it is only pop3 that is screwed, isn't it?"00:21
lcuktis ok00:21
lcukits prolly the old one00:21
lcuki just went on their site and grabbed00:21
javispedrolcuk: drag pushbutton from toolbox into form,00:21
ShadowJKpupnik: scrolled uo?00:21
javispedroright click push button,00:22
Khertan__pupnik use webchat00:22
javispedrogo to slot...00:22
javispedroand it opens the code editor.00:22
javispedrono errors.00:22
andre__pupnik, xchat on n900 is really BAD. also tried it00:22
Khertan__works well on the n900 browser00:22
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lcukjavispedro, good00:22
pupnik_ah ok ty00:22
lcukwhere you grab from, i would gladly gladly do again00:22
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pupnik_back to my friend irssi which works everywhere the same00:22
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* ShadowJK imagines webchat uses lots more battery...00:22
pupnik_but xchat has some nice finger optimization work in network list - take a look at it00:22
javispedrolcuk: from that page O.o00:23
javispedroso I dunno whats going on on your install :P00:23
* javispedro dislikes the animation on qt creator when you click on a }00:24
pupnik_you are using qt creator in scratchbox?00:27
lcuksaid the blind man00:27
pupnik_or that sits outside scratchbox?00:27
javispedropupnik, so far, non-maemo qt creator.00:27
GAN900Khertan_, I heard you had managed to do some keyboard layout gymnastics at the Summit. My experimentations have been fruitless so fars so I was hoping you vould enlighten me.00:27
lcuk"file new"      "qt designer form"    dialog blah blah00:27
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javispedrobut I think it "outside sbox" qt creator may be doable.00:27
lcukright click on the dialog ok/cancel buttons goto slot00:28
lcukmoans about missing file00:28
lcuknow i see why..00:28
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woglindelcuk why?00:28
javispedrolol here too.00:28
lcukbecause i added a designer form only00:29
javispedrothe problem is within the dialog template I guess.00:29
lcuki just redid it with a project00:29
lcukand it does as you describe00:29
Khertan__going to sleep00:29
lcukworks and opens code00:29
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javispedrobye Khertan00:29
lcukso it lets you create ui stuff without a project - i am guessing this was the original use of qt-designer now00:30
javispedroif i add to an existing project a new "dialog", and try to "goto slot" it complains about missing ui_dialog.h file.00:30
javispedroit should know enough to try to build that file..00:30
* RST38h is still looking for a proximity sensor example. Any good samaritans?00:31
lcukRST38h, source for q300:31
RST38h(btw, you give me that code, you get quake-style fire button in VGBA)00:31
lcukunless its being huddled00:31
RST38hlcuk: Where?00:31
javispedroah sorry, my fault. in the "new" dialog you have to choose "dialog with class" or either it won't have a .cpp file to "edit" for you ;)00:31
* lcuk shrugs00:31
lcukthey showed it at summit didnt they00:31
RST38hit is in the Extras too00:31
javispedroRST38h: interesting. how's that fire button? :)00:31
RST38hjavis: The quake3 Nokia guys made for n900 uses proximity sensor as the fire button. You close it with your finger and fire away00:32
RST38hjavis: I think it is neat and will go well with accelerometer controls00:32
javispedrointeresting way to gain an extra hard button00:32
javispedro"hard" lol00:33
RST38haha, it is in the MCE.00:33
RST38hBut I would like to know the sysfs entry00:33
lcukyeah novel hack :)00:33
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lcukcant play in the dark tho00:33
RST38hehhehe, it can, as long as you have unlimited amount of ammo00:33
lcukok javispedro so it will do as you said00:34
lcuki am still curious how to get this over to tablet00:34
javispedrofirst step would be to get the codesourcey windows toolchain working (if it exists! lol)00:35
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lcukisnt there a qt single lib00:36
ShadowJKwhy not in the dark?00:36
javispedroqt single lib?00:36
lcukthat it can be built against directly on device00:36
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lcukShadowJK, its based on light isnt it?00:36
lcukor is proximity something else00:37
javispedroor infrared.00:37
ShadowJKlcuk: yeah but there's an emitter there too?00:37
ShadowJKinfrared light00:37
lcuko_O cool00:37
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greenflynoticing a strange issue with the maemo 5 xterm when connecting to a remote screen session00:38
woglindelcuk single?00:38
greenflyseems to just... stall00:38
greenflykeystrokes seem to get across (when I re-attach from a different host I can see them) but it's like it stops updating the maemo5 xterm00:38
lcukwoglinde, ill have a double tonight thx00:39
trbsis it possible to get the widgets in the scratchbox ( xephyr ) for fremental transparent?00:39
woglindelcuk there is QtCore00:39
RST38hfremental is a novel spelling00:39
RST38hhave not seen it00:39
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javispedrofremental. ok. lmao.00:40
lcukwoglinde, at the summit i heard about qt single lib00:40
woglindelcuk a big fat one?00:40
* javispedro notes another spanish maemo fanboy site.00:41
lcukyeah why not00:41
woglindeokay one epsiode of naruto and than bed00:41
javispedrothis one way more cult than the other ones at least, making proper references to omap2 3d drivers.00:41
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lcukbbiab code bein more annoyin00:41
RST38hAll righty!00:42
* RST38h further lowered CPU load00:42
javispedroit should _block_!00:42
javispedro0 load.00:42
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RST38hIt does block00:43
RST38hIt now blocks when waiting for a key (real or virtual)00:43
Stskeepsalso, the device programme thread has caused me to give up hope in humanity.00:43
RST38hIt now blocks when it is ready to show a frame00:43
javispedrodo you have cycles to spare? O.o00:44
RST38hSts: whining freeloaders, all of them?00:44
RST38hI do, javis!00:44
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* RST38h is a miser00:44
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javispedrowhat emu? O.o00:44
RST38hFinally, it now blocks completely when you move it to background00:44
RST38hjavis: testing on VGBA, but they will all act like this in the next release00:44
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javispedrobut but but.00:45
javispedrodid I grasp this well? think not.00:45
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VDVsxStskeeps, S/humanity/TMO :P00:45
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RST38hjavis: What?00:45
javispedrowhat are you doing? powersaving when the user is not "there",00:46
* RST38h quietly sends a note to the Tentacled one to queue up half of t.m.o membership for dinner00:46
javispedroor powersaving while the emulator is actually running?00:46
RST38hjavis: Well, several things00:46
RST38hjavis: #1: When EFF_SAVECPU option is in effect and the emulator window goes into background for whatever reason, I block now.00:47
GAN900Stskeeps, meh, it's like 4 people. :P00:47
javispedrook, #1 is same as you requested to me too.00:47
RST38hjavis: #2: When MCE sends me INACTIVE notification, I *always* block00:47
RST38hjavis: #3: When emulator prepares a frame, but the 60fps timer has not ticked yet, I block.00:47
greenflyis this channel more aimed toward development? I can take my user-level question to a different channel if there's a more appropriate one00:47
javispedroStskeeps: just wait, a few more threads about that are on the making ;)00:48
RST38hjavis: And finally #4: When waiting for a keypress or mouse (WaitKey() in EMULib) I also block00:48
javispedrogreenfly: this can be a user channel, but please google your question a bit before asking.00:48
Stskeepsgreenfly: asking is better00:48
RST38hgreenfly: Shoot00:48
greenflyjavispedro: done a lot of googling already00:48
RST38hBut yes, do google or we may ask you to unask your question00:48
fralsa good unask is nice00:48
greenflysure, I give you permission to flame me if you can find the answer in a quick google search00:49
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javispedroRST38h: ah, #4 only blocks if emulated cpu is paused (you're on the onscreen gui, etc.)00:49
RST38hjavis: Yea.00:49
greenflyI'm noticing when I connect to a remote screen session over ssh in the xterm, the local xterm seems to stall and stop showing updates00:49
javispedroactually #3 is on drnoksnes but of course only certain parts of sm world actually get enough speed to sleep.00:49
RST38hgreenfly: Correct00:49
greenflyfrom the testing I've done the keypresses seem to get through00:49
RST38hgreenfly: It is the result of the tablet WiFi saving power00:49
RST38hgreenfly: You can actually go to wifi connection Advanced Config and turn off the power saving. This will make ssh more responsive00:50
greenflywhy does that affect screen sessions but not regular interactive shells?00:50
RST38hgreenfly: Your device will eat batteries like crazy though00:50
* ShadowJK hasn't noticed this00:50
RST38hgreenfly: It affects everything. Screen may just transfer more data before it shows you anything00:50
RST38hShadowJK: Well, latest firmware we have got (41.10?) is way better on this00:51
RST38hShadowJK: But still does it00:51
javispedroactually, as for the tmo thread, qgil is pretty good following what's going on in maemo. can't complain.00:51
wazd_gnite maemo00:51
greenflylet me try that. thanks for the help :)00:51
javispedrohe's 100% right on his last post.00:51
javispedrowazd_: gnite!00:51
RST38hwazd: good night...00:51
ShadowJKrst38h: oh on N8x0 I mean00:52
RST38hShadowJK: Ah! N8x0 is way better on this00:52
RST38hShadowJK: N8x0 will STILL hiccup every now and then though00:52
KMFDMis there any way to get the phone to accept an expired 802.1x cert?00:53
RST38hset the clock back?00:53
KMFDMmy school decided they are too lazy to update their cert that expired in 200800:53
javispedroKMFDM: blame your school.00:53
javispedroI went on a personal rampage on mine00:53
javispedroand got an updated cert.00:53
RST38hhow many casualties?00:53
ShadowJKrst38h: mine seem pretty consistent. no hiccups, just higher latency00:54
javispedroonly a poor guy who didn't even work in IT.00:54
greenflyRST38h: does the change to the wifi settings take immediately or should I re-associate?00:54
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RST38hShadowJK: You can call it that00:54
RST38hgreenfly: Once you ok all dialogs, it will reassociate automatically00:54
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greenflyRST38h: thx00:55
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javispedrothis guy, the one who posted incompleted mupen64 source to tmo and claimed it was a "n900 n64 emu"00:59
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javispedrois now trying to post a "n900 emulator package" with 13 emus, including NDS, PSX and N64.01:00
* javispedro sighs01:00
* absolute hands javispedro a stess ball01:00
RST38hjavispedro: does he even have an n900?01:01
javispedrono, but he "wants one badly".01:01
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RST38hThe kids finally discovered t.m.o. God save us all.01:02
javispedroyeah, he comes from same fansite posting java tutoriales.01:03
javispedroerr... tutorials.01:03
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* javispedro grabs stress ball01:04
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RST38hThe Tentacled One needs a lot of these for a good dinner: pretty much no gray matter, just some spinal fluid...01:04
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javispedroreally, the marketing dept. is redundant.01:05
javispedrothese guys auto-marketize the thing to themselves01:05
javispedro"arm 600 mhz cortex comparable to intel core 2 due 1 ghz"01:05
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ShadowJKlol :)01:06
RST38hdo they have money to spend?01:06
dotblank3So I just learned that the n900 cant act as a usb host?01:06
RST38hyes. so?01:06
absoluteits true, but there are workarounds for most use cases01:06
RST38hafaik, no workarounds.01:06
Mouseysee? tolja it was saddening, the no host-mode thing01:06
absolutenot pretty, and probably never out of that port01:07
dotblank3damn cause that would have been awesome01:07
absolutebut for certain tasks you could wish to use the usb for01:07
Mouseydotblank3: it's awesome on the n81001:07
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absolutethere are other ways to accomplish01:07
ifreqsame with older internet tablets.. tho with soldering it was possib.01:07
SpeedEvilIs there more recent information than the couple of mails to the list a month ago?01:07
SpeedEvilOr is this just ongoing speculation?01:07
ifreqbut you prob should have any need for usb-host, bt devices are usually sufficient01:07
RST38hSpeed: Well, I no longer remember the source but it was said that usb host is not compatible with usb charging feature01:08
SpeedEvilifreq: plugging in hard-drives, scanners, ethernet dongles, ...01:08
RST38hSpeed: Not compatible on hw level. End of story.01:08
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dotblank3cause I would really like to use my USBtoSerail adapter to work and program my embeded devices with it01:08
SpeedEvilRST38h: If that's based on the same sources that I saw - I don't quite conclude the same thing from that.01:08
ifreqcant you do such things withan laptop01:08
dotblank3As a cisco engineer it would be awesome to be able to program from my phone01:08
javispedrothe pessimist on me also says "end of story". but i'm sure someone will get it open. or maybe the debug ports on the backside are connected to the usb host transceiver.01:09
RST38hSpeed: Well, can't deny people hope01:09
SpeedEvilRST38h: There is a big difference between 'OTG compatible' and will work if you apply power and flip bit 47 in the USB config register.01:09
ifreqdotblank3: you mean the keyboard is sufficient for doing firewall rules01:09
ifreqdotblank3: or cutting/pasting rules between systems etc01:09
SpeedEvildotblank3: you get bluetooth->serial links01:09
ifreqI cant see it so usable as you.01:09
SpeedEvildotblank3: they regrettably aren't very cheap - but they do exist.01:09
dotblank3ifreq: well for quick diagnostics01:10
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ifreqdotblank3: yeh, for that there is usually other ways too to connect into your router/fw01:10
ifreqbut i get your point yes01:10
dotblank3If pymaemo had the serial class I could write some quick apps that would let me handle the cisco devices better01:10
RST38hjavis: BTW have you got the network play already?01:11
dotblank3Im not a developer01:11
javispedroRST38h: nah, since chances I ever find another n8xx user to play adhoc are 0.01:11
SpeedEvildotblank3: for example.01:11
RST38hjavis: Should I suggest a workaround?01:11
SpeedEvildotblank3: there may be more appropriate ones01:11
javispedroand doing internet play with insane latencies will be tricky at least.01:11
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dotblank3SpeedEvil: wow thx those are cheap01:11
javispedroRST38h: shoot.01:11
RST38hjavis: Look at NetPlay stuff in EMULib01:12
dotblank3SpeedEvil: oops thats in pounds isnt it.. nm01:12
RST38hjavis: Basically, as long as both ends have IP addresses, you are in a game01:12
SpeedEvildotblank3: I think that's a remaindered stock - it's about 1/4 the price I've seen01:12
RST38hno need for adhoc01:12
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absoluteYeah, there's seriously like a 46 pages of talk on under a search of "USB OTG" that will cover all the bases... I too was kinda disappointed about no USB host, but i'll deal with it and work around it... for my needs01:12
javispedroRST38h: i have code from snes9x to do that, already compiled in (missing frontend code mostly)01:12
RST38hjavis: Now, if you are behind NAT, it is not possible01:13
javispedrobut I was worried about how it handles latency.01:13
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ShadowJKbest workaround is n8x0 ;)01:13
javispedrobasically every 10-20 frames it syncs up.01:13
javispedrowhich ... sucks. for anything non adhoc.01:13
SpeedEvilhmm - they've become cheaper.01:13
RST38hjavis: But if we establish a server somewhere that will take both connections and relay them, that may work01:13
dotblank3did you see that video of quake III on the n900?01:13
RST38hjavis: I sync up on every frame. Seems to work over WiFi01:14
absoluteShadowJK: yeah, I'm looking at picking up a used n800... seems you can get them for < $100 and someone in that thread talked about using its usb host hack/mod over wifi adhoc on the 900... so really, worst case scenario, its still there...01:14
javispedro10 frames is like, 200ms.01:14
RST38hinfrastructure WiFi01:14
javispedrothat prohibites anything internet.01:14
RST38h200ms is a lot of time01:14
javispedrowell, my ISP sucks then.01:14
RST38hGuess so01:14
javispedroI get 100ms ping to google...01:15
RST38hBut I think it is at least worth a try. At least games like final fantasy will do01:15
javispedroand 200ms ping to google.com01:15
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RST38h40ms ping to here01:15
javispedroso yes, I guess my ISP sucks hard :P01:15
RST38hanother feature I want to try is the vibro01:16
RST38hWorks in VGB-Symbian, so should work in VGB-Maemo01:16
javispedrohum. some vgba games have it in the cartridge iirc?01:16
javispedroer.. s/vgba/gba01:16
RST38hDunno about GBA, but GB had an extension01:16
RST38hAnd it works pretty well01:17
* RST38h actually prefers GB games to MIDP games performance wise =)01:17
javispedroand they even have more content.01:17
RST38hyep, ironically01:17
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javispedrowhen I need to get depressed01:18
dotblank3My palm treo can play NES games perfectly......01:18
javispedroI compare memory usage of drnoksnes vs drnoksnes_gui01:18
dotblank3now I'll pay someone for an snes emulator01:18
javispedrogui uses like 10x more memory.01:18
RST38hmmm....what is VIRT vs RES?01:18
RST38hI can bet the RES is not that high01:19
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* pupnik_ does the n900 really is very good dance01:19
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javispedropupnik_: how's the keyboard for gaming?01:19
ShadowJKvirt is mostly a useless measure01:19
RST38hRES is also not exactly correct01:20
RST38has it includes shared libs01:20
SpeedEvilyeah - it includes shared libs.01:20
SpeedEvilThere are a couple of projects to merge shared pages01:20
SpeedEvilI mean identical unshared pages01:20
javispedrothe whole thing is a mess. if I were evil I would include even ro pages of shared libraries.01:20
* RST38h answered the "is Cortex really that fast?" question at work by showing off quake301:20
SpeedEvilWhich may be useful.01:20
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javispedrocause "they do not count because they're shared" is like a theorital lie practical truth issue.01:21
ShadowJKit includes all kinds of meomory maps01:21
pupnik_dunno javispedro - so far ok01:21
RST38hjavisL not exactly01:21
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SpeedEvilhttp:// - like that - but more recent01:21
RST38hjavis: Take gtk+ for example: it is used by a shitload of maemo apps on regular basis01:21
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RST38hjavis: So, you also make use of it. Does it mean it should count against your program footprint?01:22
javispedronot doing that is a partial truth.01:22
RST38hbut doing that is a partial truth as well, just a different part01:22
javispedroyeah, I guess it depends on your level of nitpickyness01:23
RST38hand it all depends on how many processes use that particular library01:23
RST38hactually here is a good measure:01:23
RST38hfor every shared library, divide its size by the number of processes that use it01:23
RST38hthis will give me your process' share in that library01:23
javispedroRST38h: drnoksnes uses 10m RES, gui uses 12m.01:24
javispedro(I don't know where busybox top gets the %MEM)01:24
RST38hInstall htop from the repo01:24
javispedroi'm using debian top now01:25
RST38hhtop is better, top is kinda untruthful01:25
RST38hAlso, SDL probably maps the whole fb0 into address space of the process01:25
ShadowJKAtleast in the past, each new thread got something like 8megs of stack mapped, so every new thread would grow virt by 8Megs even if the thread was using only 4k of it (meaning only 4k of ram/swap used) :)01:25
RST38hShadow: It is ok: mapped != allocated01:25
ShadowJKthat's my point.01:26
RST38hAlso, look at the file dialog: it still maps 100+MB01:26
javispedroRST38h: nope, SDL uses XShm after all.01:26
RST38hjavis: Hmm...ok01:26
dotblank3It would be awesome if someone ported electric sheep01:26
* javispedro can't go to sleep untils vista vm's 300 upgrades get applied01:27
javispedroeven though I'm considering plugging the virtual plug though. It's damn slow.01:28
pupnik_javispedro what do you think about sdl programs drawing to gtk pixbuf or whatever is needed for integration into clutter01:29
javispedropupnik_: sdl programs should be integrated into clutter already.01:29
pupnik_oh ok01:29
javispedrodrnoksnes is going through X11. it's one of the reasons I'm reticent to go RST's way and bang fb0.01:29
javispedrotry drnoksnes windowed mode and switch tasks01:30
javispedroit works even in x86 sdk01:30
johnsqjavispedro: with shared memory and dga x11 has the same speed like fb01:30
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dotblank3would aircrack-ng run?01:31
pupnik_just about to test now javispedro01:31
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* VDVsx needs a name for a small app that will enable HID support in maemo5 and will help to connect keyboards o_001:31
javispedroabbv. wdnfgt01:32
javispedroabbv. wdnft  (i can't spell...)01:32
greenflyVDVsx: nothumbs01:32
javispedrojohnsq: i don't think xomap supports dga...01:33
javispedrobut XShm, sure.01:33
halveshello guys, can anybody help me with n800 and a mono bluetooth headset?01:33
lardmandepends what's wrong with it01:33
johnsqjavispedro: i have written a c64 emulator long ago.01:34
javispedrousing dga in maemo?01:34
javispedroi assumed it is a 386-thing only.01:34
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johnsqjavispedro: long a ago, 486 times, no it was portable C code runs also on suns01:34
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halveslardman: I am trying use nokia bh-101 bluetooth headset with n800 to do internet call, but it doesn`t worked01:36
lardmanhalves: does it pair? Can you hear any audio through it?01:36
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halveslardman: yes it was pair, I can hear a ringtone if I receive a internet call, but when I accept this call, it use the n800`s speakers01:38
lardmanmight be something specific to the sw01:38
lardmananyone else managed a call using a mono headset?01:38
Sargun_screenIs the Nokia tablet/netbook MAemo based?01:39
ArkenkloSargun_screen: no, windows 701:39
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Sargun_screenArkenklo: Are you serious, or was that a bad joke?01:40
halveslardman: I don`t found any option to configure it.01:40
ArkenkloSargun_screen: speaking about the netbook/laptop01:40
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Sargun_screenArkenklo: Fuuuck.01:40
ArkenkloNokia Booklet01:40
Sargun_screenand it looked so cool.01:40
Arkenklolet me doublecheck that01:40
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LantzAnyone know anything about "Cold Serial Flash" on N810?01:41
javispedroArkenklo: no need, it's true.01:41
lardmanhalves: I don't know I'm afraid. Might be worth a post to the maemo-users list to ask if anyone else has had it working, or if it's a limitation of the call software01:41
Arkenklojavispedro: thanks01:41
Sargun_screenI wish the N900 had an OLED screen01:41
Arkenkloindeed it is a massive fail by nokia installing windows01:41
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halveslardman: ok, thanks01:42
Sargun_screenArkenklo: I wonder what modem they are using in it.01:42
Arkenkloactually, a omap-based netbook running maemo would have been pretty nice, probably not commercially but for the platform01:42
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Sargun_screenI mean $299 for the cost (After rebate), they could probably take $50-$100 off01:43
Sargun_screenWith Win701:43
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Sargun_screenthough, extra development costs are...costly01:43
Arkenkloreleasing another generic atom netbook seems extremely redundant01:44
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Arkenkloanyway, I should be going to bed01:44
Sargun_screenArkenklo: nokia has a brand01:44
Sargun_screenthey make good hardware01:44
ArkenkloI guess, well, even the best makes mistakes01:45
Sargun_screenif they had a good alternative UI, etc...01:45
Solarionstupid Windows01:45
Arkenklothis is a multi million dollar company we're talking about after all01:45
SolarionI want my flying car01:46
Arkenklothey can only be that awesome01:46
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ShadowJKI guess booklet has one feature: fanless01:46
Sargun_screenAren't a couple other ones fanless?01:46
* ShadowJK hasn't heard of any before01:47
javispedroman, why's windows vista update speed "1 update per hour"????? :(01:47
ArkenkloI laugh just at the thought of anything branded Nokia that has a fan01:47
ShadowJKnot that it matters, they are samle class as booklet: unobtanium :)01:47
Arkenklojavispedro: because that's how ofter security gets breached01:47
Arkenkloor well, that's how often they detect one01:47
javispedrobut I have 300 updates to do!01:47
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Arkenklojavispedro: 300 viruses knocking at your door!01:48
LantzAnyone know anything about "Cold Serial Flash" on N810? I have 3 that wont boot (even in reflash mode) No indicator LED when pluggen into charger... Nothing01:48
* ShadowJK is curous about their battery voltage01:50
javispedrofirst interesting question of the night ;)01:51
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javispedrodid anybody get cold flash working? I remember reading so.01:51
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javispedro110/270 updates installed.01:52
javispedrothe rest faile.d01:52
LantzI can fabricate the docking station to access the contacts but don't know where to go from there01:52
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ArkenkloI'm suprised that none of the 371 geeks in here have shouted at him to stop using microsoft products and install linux01:53
javispedroArkenklo: did you miss our conversation about VB6 just about an hour ago? ;)01:53
Arkenklojavispedro: I must have01:53
javispedrodon't worry, this is a VM.01:53
Arkenklocrap, I hate vb6, and to make things worse, I'm forced to use it weekly01:54
ShadowJKarkenklo: warning examples speak best for themselves01:54
Firebirdjavispedro, do you have the changes to SDL1.3 documented anywhere?01:54
javispedroFirebird: sdl documentation task started like... a week ago. they only have 5 or 6 functions documented.01:54
javispedroin the off documentation, i don't remember if they have any generated docs.01:55
Firebirdjavispedro, I meant the changes necessary for it to work on maemo01:55
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lcukwhats broken in it01:55
javispedroFirebird: i think sdl 1.2 was shipped "as is" without any specific patches, lemme check.01:55
Firebirdsomething about color being messed up or something like that.. according to javispedro01:55
CorsacKhertan_: hey, seen you're an SFR user01:56
CorsacKhertan_: which kind of contract do you have?01:56
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* javispedro checks logs01:56
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Firebirdjavispedro, Oct 09 21:09:46 <javispedro>    if upstream, get my sample to get some of the egl parameters.01:57
javispedroah, yeah.01:57
javispedroactually, I got them from a mailing list post.01:58
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javispedrobut the issue at hand is not wrong colors, but that it won't found any "compatible" option set.01:58
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javispedroso be sure sdl-1.3 does not set EGL_RED, GREEN, ... _SIZE and you'll be fine02:00
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Firebirdthough, I don't think SDL uses EGL.. does it?02:02
lardmannight all02:02
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javispedroFirebird: only way to get a oglesv2 renderable.02:02
javispedrognite lardman02:02
javispedrono glx in oglesv202:02
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javispedro(and oglesv1 for the matter)02:03
lcukjavis, you didnt use sdl at first did you02:03
javispedrolcuk: nope, the triangle test was as bare metal as possible.02:03
javispedroX11 + EGL.02:03
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* lcuk nods02:03
* lcuk has presentation working :)02:04
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pupnikreboot loop on n90002:04
pupnikfrom some desktop widget apparently02:04
lcukwith the extra bits02:04
Firebirdaha, I found it02:04
lcukpupnik, i thought mine was in a reboot loop02:04
pupnikwould be nice if device detected reboots and what it launched to cause the crash02:04
lcukuntil i realised the other end of usb wasnt plugged in02:04
lcukand it was just not charged :$02:05
javispedropupnik: i thought it did that ?02:05
pupnikoh this has been chargin but i double check02:05
javispedroI mean, sometimes hildon-desktop boots without any widget.02:05
javispedroat least here on my n810.02:05
pupnikdunno - 13 reboots here02:05
javispedroand they say the n920 will be "ofcourse better" ;) lol02:06
pupnikwell unexpected things happen with third party apps, i think that is natural02:06
pupnikit might have been that gpsd monitor desktop applet02:06
pupnikwould like to boot into console mode plx02:07
javispedropft. the current situation with the firmware sucks.02:07
javispedrothe should release the damn flasher already02:07
lcukthe current situation with the firmware is transitional, its not suckage surely02:08
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javispedroFirebird: don't remember right now... you got an n900 to test?02:09
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lcukjavispedro, how do i get qt app onto tablet then without code sourcery - or is that the only way02:09
javispedrolcuk: i've not started developing that idea yet!02:09
lcukpupnik, add to mailing list, your total failure might make something change02:09
javispedrobut of course you need codesourcery, but that's avail for windows02:10
lcukthats ok02:10
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* lcuk heads back to lb pres02:10
javispedrolcuk: i'd get the codesourcery toolchain from their webpage, try to crossbuild qt (or get it from the device) and try to configure qt-creator to use that.02:10
javispedroand hope no more libs required  :)02:11
Firebirdjavispedro, no02:11
lcukhand waving, complex for either of us02:11
javispedroFirebird: uh.. dev program?02:11
pupniknow i have a paused "5 dots" animation and the status light is slowly flashing orange :(02:11
Firebirdjavispedro, nope, failed to make the mark02:11
pupniki think flashing orange is kernel panic02:11
lcukare the lights included in the pdf documentation i wonder02:12
javispedroFirebird: that's bad, cause from what I found, the sdk libgles2-dev is way more forgiving than the device one.02:12
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Firebirdhm, javispedro I'm modifying the pandora driver for maemo, shouldn't that work?02:13
javispedrothe keyword here is "should" ;)02:13
javispedroI had something that worked flawlessly in both libgles2-dev and powervr sdk, but not on device.02:13
pupnik"your total failure might make something change" is about the most hopeful thing i've heard in a long time, lcuk :)02:13
javispedrobut I guess who did the pandora driver had an actual pandora...02:14
lcuki had something which worked flawlessly on my device but not on the big day02:14
lcuklol pupnik02:14
lcuki havent heard of anyone bricking them yet02:14
lcukand its been a week02:14
javispedrolcuk: i have.02:14
lcuko_O who else02:14
lcuklong line?02:14
javispedroer.. someone did apt-get dist-upgrade to extras.02:14
javispedrocan't remember the name, but it's all on tmo.02:14
pupnikthis is really good for me so i can have some time to fix up things around the house02:15
javispedro(I wish I could have an n900 to brick lol )02:15
lcukahhh yes, but i think they were still at summit02:15
lcukand there was a big red warning02:15
javispedrolcuk: think not...02:15
lcukand he got it flashed afaik02:15
Firebirdjavispedro, the pandora driver sets those attributes: "wdata->gles_attributes[attr_pos++] = EGL_GREEN_SIZE;"02:15
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fiferboythat was me02:15
fiferboythat got it flashed at summit02:15
fiferboysomeone else talked about it on t.m.o02:16
lcuklol trust you fiferboy !02:16
fiferboyof course!  I've got to try it...02:16
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javispedroFirebird: well, for sure they don't work in N900.02:17
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javispedrowell, unless they changed that in latest device.02:17
Firebirdah, can maemo gles double buffer?02:19
javispedrodidn't try.02:19
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Firebird"/* Under PND OpenGL ES output can't be double buffered */"02:20
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javispedroany clue what PND means here?02:20
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pupniki think triple buffering works well for gl, but if orgots02:22
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pupnikFirebird what you looking at for gl app?02:23
javispedrosdl-1.3 port. everytime I see news about the lib it seems more interesting.02:24
Firebirdpupnik, going a port of the pandora SDL1.3 driver, double buffering is disabled here02:24
pupnikcool cool02:24
javispedroFirebird: why did you started off the pandora version, and not upstream trunk?02:24
pupnikwhat have they done with it that is useful?02:24
pupniksame question02:24
Firebirdjavispedro, eh? I'm using the pandora driver in the upstream trunk02:24
Firebirdthere's a ipod driver in here too02:25
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javispedrothat rings a warning bell.02:25
javispedrodoes "pandora driver" depend on X11?02:25
* Firebird goes check02:25
javispedroif it does not, you're fscked. killing x11 is not an option in maemo.02:26
javispedrounless you want to bang fb0 and draw over everything like rst38 ;)02:26
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javispedrodon't say that a non-x11 driver would be useless (it may work for fullscreen), but ensure there's a x11 gles driver in there.02:27
pupniki picture the maemo helicopters coming to pick rst up at night02:27
pupniki was just going to try drnoksnes out for the first time, too02:28
ali1234hmm... g++ doesn't like static libs?02:28
Firebirdjavispedro, hmm, don't see anything x11 related in the gles bits02:28
Firebirdits using pure egl it looks like02:29
javispedrothat's called "native" iirc02:29
javispedroman, I have too many temp folders02:29
* javispedro creates another and checkouts sdl trunk02:30
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Firebirdjavispedro, there is a opengles file in the x11 driver folder02:31
Firebirdguess we could just use that driver02:32
Firebirdalright, fixed the EGL attributes, now to remove junk from the source tree02:33
lcukcan i just use gstreamer to play a movie02:33
lcuklike i currently have gstreamer showing live camera02:34
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javispedrowell, gnite02:43
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zerojayGAN900: Connection issues?03:08
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zerojayI'm installing browser plugins with my package. To avoid needing a reboot or two, I wanted to restart the browser daemon (/etc/init.d/tablet-browser-daemon.init restart). Is there anything I need to worry about when doing this? Are there any negative issues that crop up for the user because of it?03:19
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Firebirdhurray, SDL13 with OpenGLES2.0 is now going through the autobuilder03:23
pupnik:) ?03:23
pupnikfirebird, so a project like secret maryo world could use that03:23
pupnikafaict, the sdl just sets up the gl env03:24
Firebirdyea, and my own project03:24
pupnikwhat project?03:24
zerojayI smell some Super Mario War. :)03:24
Firebirdzerojay, thought that was already on maemo403:24
zerojayFirebird: Sure was.03:24
guysoft42hey all, i am trying to compile the N810 generic. and i seem to get an error:
pupnikoh yea....03:26
zerojayDoes a postinst script need to be executable?03:26
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pupnikguysoft42 - you using a different compiler than package maintainera?03:28
Firebirdwell this is odd, SDL_Flip isn't redrawing the screen in fullscreen mode (at least on the SDK)03:28
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guysoft42pupnik, i am using sandbox203:30
pupnikwe have hwsurface? ? :)03:30
guysoft42pupnik, [SB2 devel diablo4.1.2_armel]03:30
guysoft42is there any .config file i need, maybe?03:32
guysoft42didn't anyone here ever compile the maemo kernel?03:34
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pupniknot i03:34
ali1234guysoft42: __bad_udelay means the module is delaying for too long03:35
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guysoft42ali1234, so how can i solve that?03:35
ali1234well i'd guess those drivers are delaying based on cpu jiffies or something, and expect a very dfferent clock speed. why are you even compiling them?03:37
guysoft42ali1234, i just wanted it to compile venilla, what i really want is just to compile acm_cdc module03:41
ali1234build it out of kernel then03:41
ali1234actually i'm not sure if you can get the headers to do that03:42
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guysoft42ali1234, all i did was download the kernel source package, and compile with the generic .config, no luck03:42
ali1234which source package, which config and which compiler?03:43
guysoft42ali1234, maemo-sdk compiler03:43
guysoft42ali1234, kernel-source i think it is03:43
guysoft42ali1234, used this:
ali1234and what steps to build kernel?03:45
ali1234 ?03:46
ali1234hmm that's a bit old?03:46
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guysoft42ali1234, i more or less had that03:50
ali1234i think you must be using a wrong .config because n810 does not use any of those failing modules03:51
ali1234but i can't really help any more than that cos i've never done it on this hardware03:51
SpeedEvil hmm03:51
ali1234but maybe this can help you:
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Firebirdhm, the autobuilder seems to have frozen04:27
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zerojayreally? :/04:32
clmntchwhat size should icons in a treeview be?04:32
clmntch32x32 or 24x2404:32
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Andrilhello all04:52
bobbyddoes anyone know if the fennec browser uses the new tracemonkey javascript VM from firefox 3.5?04:53
zerojayno idea, sorry.04:53
bobbydlooks like it does from the developer page04:54
bobbydthat'll make a large difference on JS heavy pages04:54
bobbydit does on my netbook04:54
bobbydGecko 1.9.1 apparently04:54
bobbydI wonder if Adobe will hardware accelerate flash, if it's not already04:55
bobbydif it's not and they did, it could be amazing04:55
bobbydit'll be interesting to profile the machine when it's running flash :)04:55
bobbyd(the n900)04:56
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bobbydcould someone with a device maybe find out what gecko runtime the current browser uses?04:58
Andrilanyone working working on android?04:59
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ali1234bobbyd: how to check?05:05
ali1234about: says "gecko/20090928 firefox/3.5"05:06
Andrilany n810 users on?05:06
bobbydali1234: so maybe it's already the new vm05:07
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ali1234also, the n900 does a better job of fullscreen youtube than my desktop pc05:07
bobbydali1234: thanks05:07
bobbydali1234: is your desktop a Pentium 3? :)05:07
bobbydI just saw a video of bbc iplayer on the n900 on youtube05:07
ali1234no, it's a pentium 4. apparently they're worse05:07
bobbydI suppose the guy might have had 20 things running in the background05:08
ali1234it's 8 years old anyway05:08
ShadowJKfullscreen without hwaccel is extremely cpu intensive even on desktop :)05:08
ali1234yes, it is05:09
ali1234but all it takes is three or four embedded youtube videos to kill my PC, even if none of them or playing05:09
ShadowJKthat's just flash being crap :-)05:10
ShadowJKrunnig the player interffaces05:10
ali1234it really sucks05:12
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zerojayjeremiah: You there?05:14
ali1234is there any way i can stop ssh-agent from asking for my passphrase every time i use ssh inside scratchbox?05:16
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jaem_N810happy weekend05:17
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penguinbaitnot really05:17
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penguinbaitjust disappointed with some peoples actions05:18
b-man17hello penguinbait :)05:19
penguinbaithey b-man05:19
penguinbaitwhats been up05:19
zerojayyo pb.05:20
penguinbaithey zj05:20
zerojayAnyone awake that can help me with a packaging issue?05:20
zerojaypostinst in particular?05:20
b-man17penguinbait: nothing much at the moment - just playing with LFS :)05:20
penguinbaitprobably not zj, but whats the issue05:21
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penguinbaithey zerojay are you developing something?05:22
zerojayI'm installing AdBlock Plus for MicroB.. and I want the user to get a warning after installation telling them that all browser windows need to be closed before it will work.05:22
zerojaypenguinbait: I've made a .deb of about 25 classic gaming wallpapers in extras-testing now and I'm working on bringing AdBlock Plus and Flashblock to the browser.05:23
penguinbaitso you need a popup window with an OK or something?05:23
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zerojayYeah, I know how to do it, but for some reason it's just not coming up even though I know the command is right. Aside from this one little issue, the package is ready for testing and works fine.05:23
zerojayBasically the package manager will fire up a script called "postinst" after install and... just seems like I'm missing something here to make this work.05:24
zerojayOther than that, no, nothing else being developed on my end yet. I'm not really a seasoned programmer anyways.05:24
zerojayI'd start on Facebook chat but I'm sure Collabora's already working on it with the stuff I sent them to get it working in Diablo.05:25
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zerojay - might be interesting to get this working through telepathy-haze.05:27
MoRpHeUzali1234: try using ssh-add ?05:28
ali1234"Could not open a connection to your authentication agent"05:28
ali1234i guess i'll just have to keep another shell open outside sbox05:28
MoRpHeUzali1234: probably you need to correctly setup the SSH_AUTH_SOCK env var05:29
MoRpHeUzali1234: echo $SSH_AUTH_SOCK outside scratchbox and put the same value on the var inside scratchbox05:29
MoRpHeUzor if you're starting for the first time ssh-agent: eval "$(ssh-agent)"05:29
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jaem_N810is it possible to install an ssh daemon in the Maemo Diablo SDK VM?  I get package issues, due to the age of the Ubuntu version it's based on05:36
Firebirdmmm, still frozen05:36
ali1234jaem_N810: can you dist-upgrade it?05:36
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ali1234(probably not a good idea)05:38
* b-man17 wouldn´t05:39
b-man17(recomending from experience ;) )05:40
jaem_N810b-man17: I concurr05:42
jaem_N810sounds like a recipe for Badness05:42
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penguinbaitzerojay do you know if it is even running your script05:51
wirelessdreameronce the scratchbox and the skd are installed with nokia-binaries and i'm in Xeypher after running start, should I have a virual functioning n900? or is it still missing most of the default apps?05:53
wirelessdreamer*skd = sdk05:53
Firebirdnot exactly05:53
zerojaypenguinbait: I'm not.05:57
zerojayNot sure it's being run, I mean.05:57
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penguinbaitadd some lines that echo to a file or pipe some output from the commands to a file in /tmp and see if you getting anything or any errors05:58
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penguinbaitI assume permissions are executable05:59
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zerojayYeah, it's executable. Probably something I didn't notice or don't know about. Probably just will ask jeremiah to look at it tomorrow.06:00
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GAN900Why the hell did they put a text entry field in scrollable lists in the browser.06:22
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Xisdibiki dunnoz06:29
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RurouniJonesWhat would you use for data storage in your apps? sqlite or your own flatfiles?08:04
luke-jrRurouniJones: depends on the data, obviously08:05
RurouniJonesLarge amounts of text data for a quiz08:05
RurouniJonesI am so used to using DBs. Haven't used my own flatfiles for years. I am wondering if there are any disadvantgaes of useing sqlite on a mobile device. I have never programmed for them before08:06
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luke-jrlarge amounts of data might better be a ZIP file08:08
luke-jrespecially if you only have one key08:08
luke-jrI'm sure there's a library to do it.08:09
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RurouniJonesmm, point. I'll look into it08:09
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AnaliasI'm trying to build the maemo-oe work by rkirti and it cannot find a distribution package for glib2.0-2.18.1-1maemo4+0m5.tar.gz - it use to be under the maemo5.0beta tree.  Any suggestions how to resolve this?  I suspect I'll have to do the work to update Rkirti's stuff to beta2.08:12
lbaroudii would like to have one tts app for my n810 ? have anyone tried to do such crazy thing ?08:13
luke-jrlbaroudi: flite?08:13
lbaroudii would like to have one tts app for my n810 ? have anyone tried to do such crazy thing ? :)08:16
lbaroudiwhat is flite luke :) ??08:16
RurouniJonesWoohoo, SDK finally installed and working. I am squealing like a small gitl.08:17
lbarouditts = text to speech !08:17
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TheNewAndylbaroudi: flite is a tts program - it works on my n81008:26
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lbaroudithanks newandy ;)08:29
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RurouniJonesI am reading the various installation pages and just noticed. There is a Beta2 SDK and a Final SDK?08:32
RurouniJonesFor Maemo508:32
RurouniJonesMost of the pages link to the beta2 installation instructions but I stumbled upon one called "Final SDK"08:33
RST38hthat is because the final sdk is only available for the short time08:36
RST38hBut should link to it of course08:37
RurouniJonesOk, I wondered if that was the case08:37
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GAN900qole really just didn't . . .
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RST38hFrankly, I have been trying to find penguinbait but still do not know how he looks09:05
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RST38hIf it's typical density, it would create a 4 kiloton explosion in the Earth's atmosphere if it were to hit, which of course it won't. You'd expect an object of this size to fly within the orbit of the moon every few days or so. (that's tonight)09:16
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RurouniJonesIs there ongoing work to bring pyqt to freemantle?09:34
lbaroudin810 and  waht is mer ???????09:39
RST38hwhat is google?09:39
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rangeRST38h: Some kind of search thingy for the intarweb09:40
SpeedEvilnot seen09:41
SpeedEvilslightly implies avaiability of 80 n900s in helsinki on the 21st09:42
SpeedEvilFails to actually mention that it's a phone too.09:48
RurouniJonesWho cares about that?09:50
absolutewhat's the n900 meetup about? other than dates and locations, there doesn't seem to be much indication of what's going on09:50
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SpeedEvilI'd be somewhat surprised if there weren't n900s there though09:51
RurouniJonesNo tokyo meetups. Shame :)09:51
RST38hheh when you click on Moscow orLondon, you can't go back09:51
absolutei could understand maemo events... but an n900 meetup?09:51
absolutethe chicago meetup is a day before i go to toronto09:53
absolutebut if there are only 80 seats, it might be best if i knew what it was before i sign up, i suppose09:54
RST38hprobably marketing thing09:54
SpeedEvilyeah - only good if you're in the area09:54
RST38hbunch of bloggers come for freebies and get fed by marketing speeches09:54
SpeedEvilI'd be really surprised if you couldn't buy one there though09:54
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SpeedEvilIF you can't, there will be riots.09:55
RST38hbloggers are kinda meek and they come for free goods anyway, so no riots09:55
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RurouniJonesHmm no built in PDF reader with Maemo5?09:55
RST38hpdf reader is there09:56
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RurouniJonesOk, jus tnot with the sdk?09:56
RurouniJonesI am poking around the SDK version and can't find anything obvious09:57
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RurouniJonesHehe, unintentionally morbid. Setup an event like a birthday and set it to repeart yearly then you have an option to specify until which year to repeat to. "When do you think this person is gonna die"10:03
Stskeepsnormal :P10:03
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RurouniJonesYeesh, I ain't making it easy for myself am I. I want to start programming for Maemo5 using qt and python10:09
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absoluteyeah, i read that wrong too... november 2nd in chicago, not february 11th... i could catch the amtrak, but from the statements made, sounds not entirely worth the trouble of taking a day off of work10:13
absolute"you’ll be able to meet and greet some Nokia folks and, of course, get hands-on experience with the Nokia N900."10:14
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absolutei hope the hands on i have at that point is with my own device10:14
LupuRurouniJones: Have you looked at pyside?10:14
RurouniJonesNo, Haven't seen any references to that yet10:14
RurouniJonesok, same goal as pyqt. Righto10:15
* RurouniJones will look into it. Ta10:16
LupuPyside is another python QT binding, from Nokia10:16
Stskeepsgod, the back button in browser is retarded.10:16
RurouniJonesOk, I am new to all of this so is my thining correct; Pyside is gonna bind Python to QT and QT will eventually add hildon if I am understanding this correctly we will need pyside to also do bindings to the QT hildon widgets to get a nice lookin N900 app?10:18
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LupuRurouniJones: Which do you want, Hildon or Qt?10:30
LupuIf you want to make an app that looks 'native' for Maemo 5, you can use python-hildon10:31
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RurouniJones <- That rather implies that Qt will eventualy have hildon style widgets I thought.10:32
LupuThat's how I understood it also.10:34
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RurouniJonesSo if we wnat to Use somethign like pyside and have a native looking app then we will need special bindings to these new Qt hildon style widgets?10:34
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LupuI don't know.10:36
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RurouniJonesMaybe I'll start with python-hildon. Seems the least painful way for a beginner10:37
LupuAll I know is that the current UI is hildon, so 'get a nice lookin N900 app' like you mentioned before, you'd want to use python-hildon. Both Qt and Hildon will coexist, but I think it's a little early to start worrying about Qt if what you need is Hildon.10:37
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truwell, Qt maps to hildon widgets.10:48
truand the Qt apps I have built for maemo 5 seems to look pretty good10:48
trui.e. pretty similar to what you get out of a hildon program.10:48
truand since maemo  6 will be qt all around it seems like a waste learning hildon now. better to go Qt directly. AND the API is nicer :)10:49
tru(imho of course)10:49
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Luputru: I thought both Qt and Hildon will continue to coexist on Maemo 610:56
LupuI've read some pretty bad reviews of pyside, but I don't have any first hand experience with it, so I don't know if it's mature enough to really work with.10:57
truLupu: yes, but Qt will be the first class citizen there.10:58
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vasily_pupkinanybody use Mer here?11:04
Stskeeps-> #mer11:05
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mgedminpersonal-ip-address tells me (no IP found)11:20
mgedminthis can't be right11:20
mgedminin fact it isn11:20
mgedminfiferboy isn't here...11:21
RST38htoo bad.11:21
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* RST38h killed Microsoft's "extension" to FireFox11:28
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lardmanmorning all11:31
RST38hmourning, lardman11:31
mgedminwhy so sad, rst?11:31
lardmanmorning RST38h, mgedmin11:32
RST38hmgedmin: cloudy, cold, can't hunt down a bug11:33
RST38hOn the bright side, VGBA & friends no longer consume any CPU in idle mode at all11:34
mgedminI'd like to know why avahi-daemon likes to wake up 30 times a second11:35
RST38hlet me read on it11:35
RST38hhave you got anyone querying it over the network or locally?11:36
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RST38hheh, firefox officially BLOCKED microsoft plugin just now11:37
Stskeepswhich plugin?11:37
RST38hthat stupid .NET plugin MS forced on us all11:38
RST38hActually this list makes a good reading :
`0660on who? windows users? :)11:39
RST38hMicrosoft, Apple, Anti-virus vendors, download managers11:39
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mgedminRST38h: you misunderstand me; I want avahi-daemon running, I have trouble making sure it starts on startup on my N900, I just don't want it to eat any extra battery power11:49
lardman30 times/sec does seem somewhat excessive11:49
lbtthere was a thread on tmo about nominating community people who couldn't make the summit for a free/loan device... anyone got the url? is anything happening?11:50
Stskeepsyeah, there was a big thread last night11:51
Stskeepsso far most people has been sorted out (did you have enough karma btw?)11:51
* mgedmin wants iptables again11:53
lardmanhmm, would like to get one to derf really, he was lots of help with the Tremor DSP stuff in the old days11:53
mgedminscratchbox's LD_PRELOAD overrieds the LD_PRELOAD I use to make apps use my socks proxy11:54
mgedminso I've got no internet in my scratchbox11:54
lbtStskeeps: yep, 2 devices isn't too much is it?11:55
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Stskeepslbt: i have no opinion on that matter atm :P11:55
Stskeepslbt: i'm still balancing regarding sending it back to the pool and getting one of my own or what to do.11:56
Stskeepsi'm on my 5th reflash of the device, so a devel device is needed..11:56
RST38hmgedmin: Unfrotunately I have not been able to find anything closer to what you need than the stuff above11:57
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epa_do improvement ideas to Calendar go to or brainstorming ?12:05
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RurouniJonesNext probably stupid question. I can't see any references to positioning buttons (Stick to the right etc) from the pymaemo documentation. Is there some underlying gtk stuff I am supposed to know about that allows for this stuff?12:08
RST38hepa: large scale improvement goes to brainstorm, small fixes to bugzilla12:09
epa_how about multiple small things that amount to large scale changes ;)12:12
RST38hmultiple bug trackers.12:12
RST38hand if you want to have any chance of seeing them fixed, file them as problems (i.e. "Cannot do ... in Calendar")12:13
epa_ack & tack12:13
epa_RST38h: so enhancement requests go directly to trash?12:13
RST38hmore or less12:14
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JaffaMorning, all12:34
lardmanhi Jaffa12:35
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mgedmincrappy cellular coverage here ...12:37
fralswhere would here be?12:38
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mgedminright here (look where I'm pointing)12:38
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mgedminthe apartment I'm temporarily staying in12:38
mgedminmove a few centimeters to a side and you're offline12:39
fralsnever had cell coverage issues in .se12:39
fralsor well, never the last 5 years anyway12:39
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* lardman curses libchamplain demo code for not working12:42
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lardmanhmm, libchamplain is very slow, even without any maps loaded12:45
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lardmanthis demo seems to wait for a notify::state signal, where would one of those come from?12:48
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lardmanhmm, apparently it should be issued from inside the code itself12:49
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zerojayAny packaging gurus awake?12:58
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zerojayMy package installs an add-on for MicroB which requires the browser daemon to be restarted and all browser windows closed before the add-on is seen. I'm trying to pop up a dialog box telling the user this after the installation is complete using a postinst script, but it doesn't seem to work. :/13:00
zerojayThe script is named "postinst" and is executable.13:00
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Corsacand you're sure it runs?13:01
zerojayI'm not sure, actually.13:02
RST38hpostinst usually runs13:02
RST38hbut showing a dialog durign installation is no longer that easy13:02
Corsacand might not be a good idea, though13:02
zerojayIt's more than just maemo-confirm-text then?13:02
RST38hmaemo-confirm-text may well be missing from the device13:03
zerojayIt's there and works.13:03
zerojayAnd yes, my first line DOES have a # at the start, but pastebin ignored it. :/13:03
Shapeshifteryay n900 price dropped once more13:04
zerojayIs the postinst script supposed to be named just "postinst"?13:04
CorsacShapeshifter: where?13:05
ShapeshifterCorsac: well, in Switzerland ;)13:05
ShapeshifterIt's still more expensive than in the US I think13:05
SpeedEvilnot in uk13:05
Shapeshifterbut cheaper then in most parts of Europe13:06
Corsacespecially in france ;p13:06
MeizirkkiI just spent 400€ for a Touch Book and now i'm about to spend another 400€ when Nokia gives me a discount of the N900 =_=13:06
Corsac400€ ?13:06
CorsacI paid my touchbook 300€13:07
Corsacyou mean $400?13:07
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SpeedEvilIt'd be nice - if I was a UK dev - if I could just take the cash - on producing my own purchased n90013:07
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MeizirkkiCorsac, it's about 400€ with shipping + taxes + customs13:07
CorsacI didn't yet paid customs :)13:07
Shapeshifterhuh wait... the touchbook is out? the "Always Innovating" french touch book?13:07
SpeedEviluk dev - with the right karma.13:08
Meizirkkii haven't too13:08
CorsacShapeshifter: yes13:08
Corsacwell, kind-of13:08
ShapeshifterI completely forgot about it13:09
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SpeedEvil(as a discounted n900 is more expensive than a real one with a contract)13:09
Corsacno rotar: kernel-2.6.28/usr: Cannot mkdir: No space left on device13:09
epa_is it possible to add screenshots to bugreports?13:09
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CorsacSpeedEvil: but with a contract it'll be simlocked13:09
SpeedEvilCorsac: doubt it13:09
Corsacwhich means only standard and signed kernels13:09
* epa_ does not seems to find attachments section in bug report page13:09
CorsacSpeedEvil: if it's not, fine for you :)13:10
Corsac(in France it'll definitely be)13:10
SpeedEvilCorsac: I mean the current ones - there are secondary markets - stores - offering them direct - though the company does not.13:10
SpeedEvilCorsac: vodafone et al13:10
Shapeshifterwill be sim locked here as well, guaranteed. but you can unluck it when the contact runs out13:11
SpeedEvilI'm unsure if they'd know how to simlock it.13:11
ShapeshifterSpeedEvil: I'm pretty sure nokia will tell them13:12
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mgedmin"Unable to use FM transmitter while USB is connected.  Unplug USB to continue using FM transmitter".  Why???13:13
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SpeedEvilI would suspect the USB acts like an antenna13:14
SpeedEvilmaking the FM too strong13:14
SpeedEvilAnd actually asking above phone shop, it would not be locked.13:15
SpeedEvilToo strong FM would be a regulatory issue13:16
mgedmingood point13:18
mgedmindoes that mean I can listen to FM radio by plugging in USB cable instead of plugging in headphones?13:18
SpeedEvilprobably not13:18
SpeedEvilthe headphones will have a seperate circuit to pick off the signal13:19
SpeedEvilThink of it like the transmitter is a speaker, and the USB lead is a sounding board.13:19
mgedminspeaking of radio, and jumping to internet radio13:20
SpeedEvilIt doesn't intentionally make it louder it just happens.13:20
mgedminthe old dbus-send --type=method_call /com/nokia/osso_media_server string:mms://hostname/etc no longer works in maemo 513:20
mgedminmy internet connection here lets me listen to 2 seconds of radio, followed by 3 seconds of "buffering...", repeat ad nauseum13:23
mgedminthere's a spot somewhere on the table where it shows 3.5G, but it's difficult to find13:23
mgedminnow I'm on plain old 2G13:23
ifreqanyone thought about making lcars theme on n900, or is there any allready?13:25
ifreqgotta love lcars on my dusty ol'770 ^__^13:26
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* Jaffa mutters nasty things about tmo (perhaps incl. some of the new council *cough*)13:39
andre__argh. switching off the n900 does not warn that you are still receiving data via bluetooth :-(13:40
Lupuandre__: File abug?13:41
andre__no, that means more work. i'm the bugmaster :-P13:42
RurouniJonesAnyone know some good pymaemo apps that would be a good example for looking at methods of laying out an interface on an N900?13:44
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lbtnokia forum form is pretty naff... "City... or Province" .... both mandatory... <sigh>13:52
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JaffaRurouniJones: gPodder uses GtkBuilder and is Python. My own Hermes just uses Gtk/Hildon directly and might help?13:54
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RurouniJonesHmm, Hermes sounds good. Could you give me a link to the source?13:55
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JaffaRurouniJones: has a link on the right hand side13:55
JaffaRurouniJones:;a=blob;f=package/src/;h=b82a71cc7a9c1e148d663303f30c0b622d4ed102;hb=HEAD is the direct interesting link13:56
RurouniJonesGotchya! Thanks13:56
RurouniJonesI am learning Python, Hildon etc all in one go so an example of how things are done is always nice ;)13:57
zerojayJaffa: Hard not to feel like muttering nasty things, eh?13:57
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zerojayIf you're talking about who I think you might be anyways.13:57
pupnik_anybody know a way to interrupt a n900 reboot loop?13:58
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Jaffazerojay: Someone I've never met in person, let's say...13:58
mgedminpupnik_: have you tried methods that work on n8x0? e.g. enable r&d mode13:58
pupnik_looks like it's getting rebooted by the gps tracker desktop widget - i'd like to disable those13:58
pupnik_dunno - have root installed13:59
JaffaRurouniJones: Not saying it's the best way - my Gtk/Hildon is rusty and I'm brushing up my Python at the same time :)13:59
mgedminpupnik_: try disabling watchdog13:59
RurouniJonesHehe, well better than nothing13:59
Jaffazerojay: You're doing a sterling job in running your own campaign for the next council election ;-)13:59
pupnik_i can't do anything on the device mgedmin, :|13:59
JaffaRurouniJones: However, I like to think I can structure code well (although needs a *bit* of a refactor)13:59
RurouniJonesSo far I have muddled my way through the GTK/hildon classes and have a basic GUI up. But it is all fixed positioning etc....Since I come from a web-dev background this seems....wrong :)13:59
* mgedmin is available for Python questions, has used PyGtk in the past, hasn't played with Hildon14:00
JaffaRurouniJones: Ah yeah. Fixed positioning very bad.14:00
mgedminpupnik_: you can do that with flasher14:00
mgedmindoes flasher-3.0 work with a n900?14:00
JaffaRurouniJones: Layouts are the way to go.14:00
Jaffamgedmin: Earlier firmware drops from danielwilms included a new Flasher14:00
pupnik_GOOD idea mgedmin ty14:00
RurouniJonesI am arranging buttons using gtklayou.put(button,x,y) style things14:00
zerojayJaffa: lol... well, thanks. Not trying to.. just trying to get shit I want to see done. :)14:00
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JaffaRurouniJones: Yeah, you want to set constraints and using boxes etc. Fixed positions won't let your apps run on Mer on devices with different screen sizes (or a possible future Maemo device), won't work with auto-portrait, won't work if the theme has a different font size14:01
mgedminRurouniJones: check out
RurouniJonesOoooo, spiffy. I never seen that site before...guess I have been to specific in my searches14:03
* mgedmin just googled for "pygtk tutorial"14:03
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RurouniJonesI started using python today. I have been searching on specifics like pymaemo, hildon etc14:05
Stskeepswazd should set up a donation box for his stuff14:06
mgedminit is possible that more specific tutorials exist14:07
Stskeeps~seen rkirti14:08
lbtJaffa: security stuff...14:08
infobotrkirti <n=oespirit@> was last seen on IRC in channel #oe, 8d 14h 38m 7s ago, saying: 'kergoth: thanks :)'.14:08
RurouniJonesOk, this is making much more sense now, thanks Jaffa and mgedmin14:09
lbtJaffa: wondering about sorting out the security questions a bit to see if we can make it a bit more structured14:10
LupuHas anyone gotten OpenVPN to work with Fremantle?14:14
LupuI'm surprised there isn't a package for that in extras yet.14:15
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Jaffalbt: I think we can. Not sure how!14:17
pupnik_woglinde has qtnx working for freenx on n8x014:17
lbtit's easier with more than one brain14:17
lbtthinking about major groupings14:17
mgedminzerojay: popups during app installation really irritated me in maemo 414:18
lbtopen/closed mode; drm; kernel; boot14:18
lbtand then putting questions in there14:18
zerojaymgedmin: Why?14:18
Jaffalbt: yeah, that sounds sensible14:18
mgedminsay you restore your app list from a backup, leave the app manager in the background, go browse web14:18
derfzerojay: Because they didn't work over ssh.14:18
lbtso... major headings ?14:18
mgedminhours later switch back and see that the reinstallation process is stopped after the first three apps because the third one asks a silly question14:18
derfA non-blocking pop-up would be fine.14:18
mgedmin"ooh, which menu do you want my icon to appear in?"14:18
derfBut blocking ones just meant that the installation would stall for no apparent reason.14:19
mgedmin"ooh, please restart your browser windows to use the new plugin"14:19
zerojayWell, tell me how I can tell the user some information that won't block then.14:19
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mgedminzerojay: yellow notification bar14:19
mgedmin"adblock will be available when you restart your browser"14:19
zerojaymgedmin: And I do that from postinst how exactly?14:20
Jaffalbt: DRM, Kernel, Capabilities (what was the term Elena used?), Bootloader?14:20
mgedminI wish I knew...14:20
derfzerojay: What are you doing on postinst now?14:20
Jaffalbt: Not sure "open/closed mode" is that useful - since it breaks down into the others and confuses people as to what it means14:20
epa_person who ported Xournal for maemo wouldn't happen to be here?14:20
zerojaymgedmin: Well, when you figure out how to popup a hildon banner from a .deb, you let me know.14:20
Jaffaepa_: anidel (doesn't appear to be)14:21
zerojayderf: Nothing apparently. I'm actually searching for help because my postinst doesn't appear to work. :/14:21
mgedminzerojay: tell me how to popup a hildon banner from the cmdline, and I'll tell you how to do that from a .deb ;)14:21
mgedminsomething with dbus-send probably14:21
Jaffazerojay: echo -e 'import hildon\n....' | python / ;-)14:21
epa_Jaffa: ok thanks14:21
derfzerojay: Oh dear.14:21
Jaffazerojay: Open a web page? ;-)14:21
mgedminzerojay: for debugging, put 'touch /tmp/postinst-worked' in your postinst, then see if the file appears14:22
zerojayYeah, I'm going to do that.14:23
lbtJaffa: (and others crashanddie_ ?)
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lbtzerojay: look in /var/lib/dpkg/info/14:24
lbtsee if the postinst is there14:24
Jaffalbt: s/Functionality/Framework/?14:24
archebyteany recommendations for an irc client on the n900 ?14:24
zerojaylbt: After the package installs?14:25
lbtnah - focus on specific "what"14:25
Jaffalbt: Maybe a section for people who want to lock & customise their own devices from scratch (e.g. OEMs)14:25
lbtzerojay: yes14:25
RST38hmgedmin: BTW any news on XChat?14:26
mgedminRST38h: I haven't heard anything (and haven't done anything)14:27
Jaffalbt: good idea14:27
RST38hmgedmin: The version from qwerty coredumps when saving preferences, although it is the most recent version in the Extras right now14:27
mgedmindid qwerty reupload his package?14:27
RST38hWell he did, but it crashes when saving prefs14:27
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Jaffalbt: a section for end-user FAQs which we'll maintain (a comment at the top saying "this is community answers to common FAQs based on the technical answers below"?14:28
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RST38hmgedmin: So I suggest you reupload yours for now :)14:29
RST38hJaffa: Speaking of end user FAQs, something came up14:29
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crashanddie_Jaffa, where would the "Customisation" part come up in?14:30
* lbt wondered that too14:30
lbtEnterprise dm_crypt ?14:30
RST38hJaffa: I gave some directions on this in the thread, but I think it does deserve a clean, illustrated page with instructions14:30
JaffaRST38h: Agreed. isn't very user friendly.14:31
lbtgetting s/wich back in sec - edit pastebin if you like :)14:31
* Jaffa goes to get some crackers14:31
mgedminhm, advanced users can sudo apt-get install xchat=2.8.6-maemo10fremantle114:31
RST38hJaffa: Really need to make a dumb page with screenshots14:31
crashanddie_lbt, Jaffa, I would like to see a credential management system, that would allow people to recover their keys securely if they move to another device14:31
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RST38hmgedmin: Thanks14:31
crashanddie_lbt, Jaffa, allowing them to keep using all of their data, regardless if it is DRM'd or not14:32
JaffaRST38h: Agreed. Both for users (i.e. testers) and authors14:32
RST38hmgedmin <-- advanced user14:32
RST38hJaffa: There is one more issue14:32
JaffaRST38h: Pretty big diagrams with smiling people and large friendly arrows14:32
RST38hJaffa: I will not comment on the 10-votes-for-each-version policy, but the current way of voting is cumbersome and messy14:33
crashanddie_arrows that smile14:33
RST38hJaffa: can skip on smiling people14:33
Jaffacrashanddie_: with flowers14:33
crashanddie_Jaffa, and pastel colours14:33
JaffaRST38h: In what way? Isn't it "log on, press up/down, leave comment if downer"?14:33
Jaffacrashanddie_: Always got to have the pastel colours14:33
RST38hJaffa: Oh, no, have you tried it yourself?14:33
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JaffaRST38h: I have14:34
crashanddie_Jaffa, that being said, wasn't one of the talks at the summit "we have to state the obvious"?14:34
RST38hJaffa: Start here:
JaffaRST38h: Not as much as I should, admittedly14:34
RST38hJaffa: Click on the package:
Jaffacrashanddie_: Never assume your audience has any intelligence ;-)14:34
RST38hJaffa: click on the right version and architecture:
JaffaRST38h: Oh yeah, it's quite buried in the version and arch14:35
RST38hJaffa: Vote there14:35
RST38hJaffa: So this is NOT easy14:35
JaffaRST38h: Indeed.14:35
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RST38hJaffa: And I really think we have to have vote up/down right in the first page14:35
JaffaEach arch gets different votes too14:35
RST38hJaffa: We only care about latets on armel14:35
RST38hJaffa: This is kinda non brainer :)14:35
crashanddie_no we don;t14:36
mgedminrst listed what you must to do, but didn't mention what you should do: open up voting guidelines and make sure you checked everything that the app should do right14:36
RST38hmgedmin: If app works for the user, the user votes it up.14:36
crashanddie_RST38h, we provide x86 scratchbox, thus we need to make sure it is tested as well, and correctly migrated14:36
JaffaX-Fade: Any concrete plans for improving the UI for testers/karma per version (not per version + arch)? If not, we can draft an email or a bug14:36
RST38hmgedmin: this is it14:36
Jaffamgedmin: Indeed14:36
RST38hcrashanddie: Do you want ALL end users know about it?14:36
mgedminwhat about things like 'make sure the icon is there' and 'make sure it doesn't kill your battery life'?14:36
crashanddie_RST38h, of course not, but QA should not be done by end users14:36
RST38hcrashanddie: these are guys with N900s. Why should they even SEE i386 packages?14:36
RST38hcrashanddie: Surprise, Sherlock, current scheme assumes that QA is done by end users14:37
RST38hadvanced end users I guess14:37
mgedminI admit that if I *had* to do QA at that level, I would probably *never* vote, because it would be too much effort14:37
crashanddie_sorry then, i'll stfu14:37
RST38hmgedmin: See, Marius, you are now looking into the same abyss as me14:37
zerojayToo much effort to click on a link or two?14:38
Jaffasuch as, anyone who went to the summit14:38
RST38hmgedmin: Unfortunately, Niels et al have not reached this point of understanding yet14:38
crashanddie_zerojay, it's already too much effort for people to go to bugzilla, you honestly believe they'll give a shit about having the app in extras rather than testing, as long as it runs on their device?14:38
zerojayIt takes three clicks to go from the list of packages in extras-testing to posting your vote.14:38
JaffaRST38h: I think that's unfair. It's just there's a lot of infrastructure and X-Fade's not a UI guy14:38
pupnik_interesting discussion14:39
RST38hJaffa: It is not about infrastructure or UI14:39
JaffaSo, let's start pulling together concrete suggestions - preferably even with HTML ;-)14:39
mgedminzerojay: and how many clicks from my browser start page to the package list?14:39
RST38hJaffa: The current Extras promotion scheme is doomed to keep Extras empty, this is what it is about14:39
crashanddie_app manager supports voting14:39
pupnik_how about a few functional 'forms' for N900 prototype testers to use...14:39
JaffaRST38h: It is; cos the software's being written by one person whilst the process is being defined14:39
zerojayStart here: -> click on package version number -> click thumbs up/thumbs down. Is it really that hard?14:39
crashanddie_Jaffa, <em>app manager supports voting and promotion</em14:39
RST38hpupnik <--- sayeth the truth14:39
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Jaffacrashanddie_: Not going to happen. However, the community app built on top of HAM and pulling down screenshots/comments etc. from could14:40
RST38hJaffa: So, yes, we should at least partially fix the braindead promotion policy by making it easy to vote and comment14:40
RST38hJaffa: THIS can be done with HTML and infrastructure changes alone14:40
mgedminworkaround: blog posts14:40
crashanddie_Jaffa, not possible to write our own app manager?14:40
JaffaRST38h: How about constructively raising criticisms of the promotion policy on -community or -developers?14:40
Jaffacrashanddie_: Indeed, that's what's coming apparently.14:41
RST38hJaffa: I have raised these issues here with Niels a few times14:41
JaffaRST38h: And yes, at the same time, doing HTML and UI changes to make it easier to vote14:41
zerojaymgedmin: Btw, only one click to go from browser start page to the package list.14:41
mgedmin"I have just released froobazle 0.2.4-17maemo27whoopsydaisy3, here's a shiny screenshot; if you're a power user upgrade it from extras-devel and please go vote here: [full url to voting page for that particular version]"14:41
RST38hJaffa: I do not think the understanding of this problem has sunk in yet though14:41
JaffaRST38h: X-Fade doesn't define the promotion policy. He's just implementing /packages/14:41
pupnik_true mgedmin14:41
JaffaRST38h: It's unfair to rail at one guy when it's been discussed on mailing lists14:41
zerojayStart here: -> click on package version number -> click thumbs up/thumbs down. Is it really that hard?14:41
crashanddie_zerojay, see comment above addressed to you14:41
RST38hJaffa: Well, I strongly doubt anyone will listen to me on the list14:42
RST38hJaffa: Right now, I am simply assuming that Maemo4 Extras has been renamed to Extras-Testing in Maemo514:42
JaffaRST38h: And I *know* it isn't productive doing it here. So, you can only get listened to more ;-)14:42
JaffaRST38h: Correct.14:42
lcukcrashanddie_, of course its possible to replace HAM, its just hard to get it right14:42
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mgedminpotential for misunderstanding: people who haven't installed and tested that package may start clicking thumbs up thinking it means "yes I want to have that package available"14:42
RST38hJaffa: Well, by doing it here on one-to-one basis, I can bring you people to reality one by one14:43
zerojaymgedmin: That's true and already has happened with some packages.14:43
crashanddie_lcuk, with all of our brains, size of the universe, free coffee and cigarettes?14:43
RST38hJaffa: You , Niels, etc14:43
RST38hJaffa: If I post it to the list, the herd mentality will automatically kick in14:43
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lcukheh even my little widget manager isnt upto snuff14:43
JaffaRST38h: Not if you communicate clearly and don't use terms like "braindead"14:43
lcuki did ponder it using the database version14:43
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zerojaymgedmin: One guy voted up RST38h's emulators not even realizing it was for Maemo 5.14:43
lcukcos i had tagging working14:43
JaffaRST38h: It's not me and Niels you need to convince.14:44
RST38hmgedmin: Solution: they should make it even harder to vote!14:44
lcuki would prefer to see app manager tied directly to downloads14:44 rather14:44
zerojayIt's not even remotely hard now.14:44
Jaffalcuk: X-Fade said at the summit that that was being worked on14:44
lcukyeah i know14:44
RST38hmgedmin: Verify that voting is done from an n900 and the package is installed14:44
Jaffazerojay: Split votes by architecture aren't great.14:44
lcukJaffa, an easier target initially to prove concept14:44
zerojayJaffa: You don't even get that option if you're going through it the right way.14:45
lcukmay be the n900wallpapers site14:45
lcukit offers tagged and rated downloads14:45
lcukand we need a slick UI for it on device14:45
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lcukand wallpapers wont break your machine14:45
RST38hJaffa: Well, it is enough for me if you or Niels or some other mailing list regular raise this issue at the mailing list14:45
lcukget it right with that, and transfer the knowledge to a proper full appman14:45
Jaffazerojay: Right, then the documentation needs to come. If I'm voting on a package, I'll click on its name first (its on the left)14:45
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RST38hJaffa: Not looking for spotlight here, just would like to see this fixed14:45
zerojayJaffa: ok.14:46
RST38hAnd not turned into another Apple App Store certification nightmare14:46
JaffaRST38h: Yes. And you've got valid concerns. Why spend effort trying to convince individuals one at a time when you can convince everyone in one go?14:46
zerojayI don't think that could be possible right now even if we tried to fuck things up that bad. :)14:46
* Jaffa has far too much on his plate to pick up *other* people's concerns ;-)14:46
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LynoureWhat would be a good todo app for fremantle?14:47
lcuki like countdown applet14:47
pupnik_there's one in the 'desktop' section Lynoure14:47
lcukfor a few little things14:47
RST38hJaffa: Because if I try convincing everyone in one go, I will get a long thread of responses explaining to me why my concerns are invalid and then trailing off in some random direction. happened many times14:47
zerojayDoesn't Calendar already have todo? You get asked if you want to sync todo items when you use Mail for Exchange on the N900.14:47
pupnik_lcuk: to time how much time the wife gets in bed before going back to hacking>?14:47
RST38hJaffa: I think this should be your concern as well, as you also have stuff in Extras14:47
zerojaypupnik_: Hell yes. Mine's been staying up later and later so I've had less and less time. :/14:48
Lynourezerojay: no categories in that one, or could not see them...14:48
JaffaRST38h: I am concerned. I'm not concerned with the principle; as far as I'm concerned it's just the UI/ease-of-use/documentation which needs to improve.14:48
RST38hJaffa: That would be the first step. The next is probably going to be lowering vote threshold from 10 to 3-514:48
lcukzerojay, yeah the calendar has todo - i have todo sketches in it :P14:49
Lynourepupnik_: which one in desktop? Cannot really see anything applicable14:49
RST38hJaffa: At least for now, to let a flow of fresh apps into Extras14:49
RST38hJaffa: Of course you CAN raise it later as needed, depending on voting activity14:49
zerojayThere's nothing in browser for making sure popup windows aren't opened, is there?14:50
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zerojayOh... yes, there is.14:50
Jaffazerojay: In diablo there was a preference for it14:50
zerojayYeah, just stumbled across it.14:51
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guysoft42hey again, i am stuck at compiling the maemo kernel, does anyone know how to solve this?:  what dos :  WARNING: "__bad_udelay" [sound/pci/ali5451/snd-ali5451.ko] undefined!mean?14:53
mgedminfor the maemo kernel?14:56
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mgedminwhat sort of hardware do you intend to run it on?14:56
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pupnik_Lynoure: i can't recall the name sorry - was something installed as a quick test before i killed my system14:57
Corsaclbt: do you implie with your ?? on customisation that I wasn't very clear? :)14:59
lbtCorsac: yes15:00
CorsacI feared that :)15:00
lbtI think I know what you mean15:00
lbtbut I'm not sure how it fits in15:00
lbtall other questions apply15:00
lbteg custom kernel, initrd, rootfs15:01
Corsacbasically, companies may want to use n900 for its people, *because* it can be used in a secure way15:01
Corsacmeaning, secure vpn, storage, communications etc.15:01
lbthowever.... what's the question?15:01
lbtI think they'll fit in above15:01
Corsacwill it be possible to access hardware security functions in open mode :)15:01
lbtthat may be a User FAQ though15:02
Corsac(open because they might require custom kernels)15:02
lbtright so that specific Q is relevant to custom build15:02
pupnik_nokia's DRM solution is the best solution i'vfor supporting both FOSS and closed SW15:02
lbtbut also relevant to lots of other areas too15:02
pupnik_wow - i am chatting while upgrading glibc and INIT15:02
mgedminCorsac: yes15:02
pupnik_forgot how awesome linux was15:02
lbtso Custom Build may be a big user FAQ15:02
mgedminCorsac: the only thing the loader does when it detects an unsigned kernel is disable the DRM crypto keys stored in the hw15:02
Corsacmgedmin: that's a nce “yes” :)15:03
Stskeepsfamous last words15:03
CorsacStskeeps: :)15:03
Corsacmgedmin: ok15:03
mgedminaccording to the presentation and questions asked during the summit15:03
Stskeepsmgedmin: as i can read it, disable DRM crypto keys for that signed kernel15:03
lbtI still want an answer to the point I raised in the roo15:03
Stskeepsso a normal kernel could have crypto keys too15:03
lbtcan they reach out and "1984" it15:03
pupnikwhoop crash!15:03
lbtStskeeps: I think there may be some hardware stuff too15:04
pupnikseems related to disk access15:04
Corsacmgedmin: in the slides it's said that they “restrict security functionality” so I wasn't sure :)15:04
RST38hpupnik: You do not yet know what Nokia's DRM solution is15:04
pupniktrue i guess15:04
RST38hpupnik: So I would reserve any praise for now.15:04
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RST38hLet's just wait and see15:04
Corsacbasically if business can run their own security architecture with a trusted device it can really kick ass15:05
Corsactrusted by them, I mean15:05
lcukso will mer be on the light side or the dark side?15:05
Corsacthere's no dark side15:05
lbtif I can see the signed kernel then I can extract embedded keys15:05
RST38hMer will be on the technicolor side15:05
Corsacyou can extract the signature15:05
RST38hi.e. bright and groovy =)15:05
JaffaCorsac: The question will be: "will a signed kernel and a signed image be able to have the same security features as 'closed' mode?"15:06
Jaffa...where the signing is *not* done by Nokia15:06
lcukwill i be able to share an unsigned .deb with friends who wont want to reboot to see an app15:06
lbtwhat's the point of signing a kernel from anyone else?15:06
SpeedEvillbt: so that I can lock my own phone up15:06
SpeedEvillbt: say15:06
Jaffai.e. I want to buy 5,000 Maemo 6 devices and ensure that my employees can only use the device in the way *I* want15:07
mgedminwill the default signed image allow me to install debs such as rootsh from extras?15:07
JaffaI think that's what Corsac meant?15:07
lbtSpeedEvil: you can't15:07
SpeedEvilOr that15:07
lbtthe Loader is nokias15:07
lbtand won't recognise your sig15:07
lcukjaffa good example15:07
lcuksme will want to use the platform15:07
SpeedEvillbt: that does not mean they could do it. For example - you might have a per-device signature15:07
Jaffamgedmin: The question there is: "will the security be at a below-root level, meaning that root access is still accessible." But the question is *why* you want root.15:07
lcukbut their apps wont necessarily be in the global repo15:07
ShapeshifterDoes a page a la "tips on how to improve your n900 as a regular linux user" already exist? Where stuff like "edit the init script to allow more than 4 parallel terminal sessions" would be on?15:07
lbtJaffa: I really hope it is below root15:08
ShapeshifterI'm guessing there's loads of stuff like this15:08
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lbtotherwise it's broken15:08
Jaffalbt: From the stuff about binary signatures, I think it will be.15:08
mgedminShapeshifter: bitten by the 4 pyt limit too?15:08
pupnikwiki it shapeshifter15:08
infobotmgedmin meant: Shapeshifter: bitten by the 4 pty limit too?15:08
Shapeshiftermgedmin: no, but it'll happen sooner or later. I don't have one yet :|15:08
Shapeshiftermgedmin: and a page for people familiar with linux describing all these problems would be popular15:09
lbtJaffa: as a question: "Would Nokia be prepared to have Bruce Schneier and co review the security architecture?"15:10
Jaffalbt: Given they've published the security architecture, *anyone* can review it. So is the question more "Would Nokia be willing to pay Bruce Schneier and co review the mid-level design of the security architecture and have his conclusions published?"15:11
lbtI think he'd be interested enough15:12
lbthe works for BT15:12
lbtthere's a tie15:12
JaffaDoes he?15:12
JaffaDidn't know that.15:12
lbtBT bought counterpane15:12
lbtI sent him an email when he joined15:12
Jaffa"Hello, it's me!"15:13
* Jaffa is finding git easier with Hermes than he has before; btw.15:14
lbtkinda - plus some internal stuff15:14
lbtit grows on you15:14
lbtgitk ?15:14
lizardowhoever is trying to upload "libsdl-13" version "9999-1" please don't do it :) at least use a sane version number ... otherwise epoch will need to be introduced for this package15:14
Jaffalbt: quick git q - will `git commit -a' include deleted and new files automatically? Or just ones which are modified and already tracked?15:14
Jaffalbt: not used it properly yet. Waiting for timsamoff to give me a better www ;-)15:15
lbt-a not new ones , but does do all mods/dels15:15
JaffaOK, cool.15:15
RurouniJonesIs there gonna be any polishing to the app manager? At the moment it has duplicates and package names instead of nice friendly titles. Will there be any quality control in terms of entries etc?15:15
JaffaThat'd be just what I'd want then :)15:15
lbt(otherwise it'd add .o files and crap)15:15
lbt((unless excluded))15:16
JaffaRurouniJones: On Maemo 4 or Maemo 5?15:16
Jaffalbt: yeah15:16
mgedminwhat duplicates?15:16
mgedminwhat package names?15:16
lbtgitk is a local gui to view branches/versions - do try it :   gitk --all15:16
JaffaRurouniJones: Quality control is being done through Extras-testing and moving apps up to Extras. Package names will be shown unless the package uses XB-Maemo-Display-Name. Duplicates is concerning.15:16
mgedminare you refering to the app manager's user interface, or the packages you see in it?15:16
Jaffamgedmin: Content, I think15:17
RurouniJonesBearing in mind this is from the SDK, not an actual phone. They use different sources?15:17
JaffaRurouniJones: Might do. You might also have red pill mode enabled?15:17
Jaffalbt: gitk's just *soooo* mid-90s with its Tk interface ;-)15:17
RurouniJonesThat I have no idea, I have done nothing outside of the standard scratchbox SDK install15:17
lbtit's written in tcl too15:17
lbtbut it's great :)15:18
Jaffalbt: yay! *cough*15:18
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mgedminred pill still exists in maemo 5?15:18
lbtthe functionality is superb15:18
Jaffamgedmin: Yup, but I *think* m-vo implemented the "don't keep on permanently" feature15:18
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RST38hTCL. Feh.15:19
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vladovghi all15:20
* mgedmin shares rst's opinion on tcl/tk15:20
vladovgits back in game15:20
Stskeepsyeah, we were there15:21
vladovgand ai have a qeston15:21
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zerojayI hope people don't have too many high hopes pinned on the PowerVR driver doing... much.15:21
vladovghal dis wil help in det kaind off period for maemo 415:21
* zerojay adjusts his antenna15:22
lcukzerojay, me too, we coped perfectly well without 3d graphics in computing for practically 50years15:22
vladovgsorri for bad english15:22
Stskeepszerojay: according to sources it can drive full screen15:22
Stskeepsand we don't need it to do much, really.15:22
zerojayI just mean in terms of performance. I'm sure there are a lot of people expecting shit like Q3 to run on their N800s so they have their hopes up real high.15:23
Stskeepsi don't expect it to run 3d strippoker.15:23
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crashanddie_vladovg, the comments on that blog are a bloody joke15:23
crashanddie_vladovg, it's -users all over again15:23
vladovgbut det maid all of media app fave to bi remaicked15:23
Stskeepsno, the media applications doesn't have to be remade15:23
vladovgfor exemple15:24
crashanddie_vladovg, are you typing like that on purpose?15:24
vladovgto preform bether15:24
vladovgand use the PowerVR15:24
Stskeepsvladovg: we are not sure we get access to IVA15:25
crashanddie_vladovg, opengl doesn't help with 2d graphics tbh15:25
vladovgbad english15:25
pupniki like that we have a community council of non-idiots15:25
derfcrashanddie_: Yes it does.15:25
crashanddie_the only thing we could hope for is having hardware acceleration for the decoding, does PowerVR support that?15:25
vladovgso it wil no help for video preformance15:25
crashanddie_derf, barely15:25
zerojaypupnik: Matter of opinion, I suppose.15:25
derfDepends on the chip of course... I have no real idea what PowerVR is capable of.15:26
Jaffa"I can haz N64 emulat0rz?"15:26
pupnikof course15:26
crashanddie_derf, drawing a line is a line, whether you use opengl for it or some other lib, it only matters if you have to do it a lot15:26
zerojaypupnik: But I agree for the most part.15:26
vladovgfor exemple15:26
vladovgnokia E9015:26
vladovgsame chipset15:26
pupnikbtw someone just sent me a n64 emulator armel build15:26
JaffaI like that we have a community council chair who isn't an idiot ;-)15:26
lcukcrashanddie_, deligating that line drawing to other hardware is where the power comes from15:26
vladovgand olmost exackt same sckrin res15:26
StskeepsJaffa: ineed15:26
zerojayJaffa: Who is the chair?15:26
lcukremember, the amiga had 7mhz, but managed its workload by collaboration15:26
Stskeepszerojay: VDVsx15:26
Jaffazerojay: VDVsx15:26
crashanddie_lcuk, excepted that the n800 doesn't have problems displaying15:27
* zerojay hits the Thanks button on that news.15:27
* Jaffa hopes gcobb's his trusted deputy15:27
lcukcours it does15:27
crashanddie_lcuk, it has problems generating/decoding the data quickly enough15:27
pupnikso in case someone really annoys you about n64, ask me for the deb ;)15:27
lcukcpu spends more time doing fills and blits than anything15:27
VDVsxzerojay, summit news ;)15:27
zerojayStskeeps: The man so nice they named him twice? :)15:27
crashanddie_lcuk, after that, you of all people have proven it's possible to have decent speed15:27
zerojayVDVsx: Yeah, missed that bit of it.15:27
lcukonly cos i optimized the shit out of it - i would love to handover fills and blits to some other hardware15:27
lcuksomething just sitting idle that can take the load - hell yeah15:28
lcukthen the cpu can do real work15:28
lcuklike fluid dynamics of more particles15:28
* Jaffa needs to find an algorithm (implementable in Python) to do homoglyphs in utf8, given VDVsx's problems with accents in Hermes15:28
lcukor AI for games15:28
derfWhat, Python isn't Turing-complete?15:29
vladovgbut isent a too late fo thed driver15:29
VDVsxzerojay, I only forgive you because I'm using your nice wallpapers ;)15:29
Jaffaderf: :-p15:29
Stskeepsvladovg: nop15:29
Stskeepsvladovg: N800, N810 is cheap15:29
Stskeepsand Mer development needs it15:29
vladovghope sow15:29
Jaffaderf: Preferably implementable in Python before the heat-death of the universe and not involving rendering characters to a pixbuf and doing OCR ;-p15:29
vladovgay now15:29
lcuklol jaffa15:30
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vladovgwait and see15:30
vladovgwath wil hapend15:30
zerojayVDVsx: Oh yeah? Which ones do you like the best? Any more you'd like to see?15:30
Jaffaderf: I may have overestimated the complication:15:31
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VDVsxzerojay, I'm using DKC atm, very greeny but I love the game ;)15:32
zerojayThat one was a real bitch to make.15:33
zerojayHard to make it loop properly. Had to redo a good portion of it.15:33
* zerojay clicks the Promote Package button on AdBlock Plus.15:34
tbfcrap! libsoup on maemo5 is built without TLS support? crap.15:34
vladovgand another thing15:35
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vladovgdid yu think with dis driver maemo5 have ani chance on N8XX15:35
zerojayVDVsx: Feel free to send me ideas for more. Most of them are really easy to make. I can bang them out in 10 minutes, pretty much.15:35
vladovgsome lithe version15:35
lbtis it me or is forum nokia crap?15:35
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zerojayNot just you.15:36
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lbtcan someone cut'n'paste it all to the wiki please15:36
zerojayI've been stuck using it for the last 4 years.15:36
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JaffaStskeeps: very nice15:37
VDVsxzerojay, actually, I'm curious about that, how do you make them ? i.e where do you grab the images :P15:37
StskeepsJaffa: now in need of something else than SW rendering15:37
JaffaStskeeps: :)15:37
SpeedEvilHmm. Easy way to make a clock.15:37
vladovgits dear some wiki15:37
zerojayVDVsx: There's a few sites that specialize in doing maps for classic games. I basically download the maps and edit those.15:37
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SpeedEvil1440 frame animated GIF15:37
zerojayVDVsx: Search for vgmaps, I think... or "nes atlas", "snes atlas".15:38
vladovgto read all about mer15:38
mgedminJaffa: ?15:38
vladovgnice job15:38
zerojayVDVsx: What I do is I look at the map and try to find an area that looks like it'll be easily loopable. The ends on each side match, etc...15:38
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mgedminJaffa: or hack something up with the stdlib's unicodedata module15:39
zerojayVDVsx: I throw it into Gimp and pull out a 1600x240 size image (or close to it). I then go to work trying to make it loopable. Since everything is tiled, I impose a 16x16 grid on the image, careful it matches up with the tiles themselves and then copy and paste tiles around.15:39
zerojayVDVsx: Sometimes zoom up and do some fixing, especially in the case of that DKC one.15:40
Jaffamgedmin: It seems there's already a unicode module for python which'll make it a one liner. trans might be even better, tho'15:40
zerojayThen I double up to 3200x480 (so that the pixels are more visible) split into 4 800x480 images and test it out.15:40
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zerojayI didn't double up on the DKC one... and wow, it looks really good.15:40
vladovgani Ubuntu app15:41
mgedminthat oneliner is cool!15:41
VDVsxzerojay, interesting, I thought you have all this games, lolol15:41
VDVsxlunch time, bbl15:41
pupnikdid you guys notice very blurry tv out on video playback?15:41
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zerojayVDVsx: I do, but why do the work when someone else has already? ;)15:41
pupnikor am i just not remembering how bad PaL is..15:41
Stskeepspupnik: only while drunk15:41
mgedminpupnik: I see very large pixels in my tv-out, and the colors are a bit weird15:41
VDVsxzerojay, true15:42
pupnikis tv out 320x240 or smth?15:42
pupniklooks like half-field progressive to me15:42
lbtjust had a chat with SR on new OBS... 1:39pm SR : build bug fixed      1:41pm lbt : built+tested15:42
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* lbt likes SSD based build systems....15:43
vladovginstall it now15:43
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mgedminPAL is something like 720x480 interlaced, isn't it?15:43
zerojayAlso generally 50fps as well.15:44
zerojayThough there is PAL60.15:44
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RST38hvladovg: !15:51
RST38hmmgedmin: Interlacing has nothing to do with actual video signal strandard15:51
RST38hvladovg: nice picture!15:51
vladovgwath picture15:52
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zerojayWhoa.. oh hey... maybe putting my foot up against my computer's CPU isn't a good idea.15:52
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RST38hmgedmin: So, PAL is really 288 lines and NTSC is 2415:52
RST38hOf which you physically see about 224 on NTSC and 240 on PAL I would say15:53
mgedmin288 lines @ 50 hz or 576 lines @ 25 hz15:53
RST38hmgedmin: Not really :)15:53
vladovgpicture on wiki15:53
RST38hmgedminL You still see the same 288 lines they just flicker :)15:53
RST38hvladovg: yes15:53
derfRST38h: That's not true.15:54
RST38hmgedmin: And do keep in mind that you see fewer than 288 on most TVs15:54
vladovgthinc yu fain my web site15:54
RST38hah, gimme a moment =)15:54
RST38hderf: It is really true. If you do not believe it, try running Amiga or MSX or some other old system in interlced mode15:55
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RST38hderf: You will quickly see that NTSC "480 lines" is a myth15:55
RST38hAll in your eye, as long as adjacent lines are similar enough15:56
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Jaffa"all in your eye" is fine when we're talking about pictures, though ;-)15:57
JaffaParticularly photographic/TV pictures15:57
vladovgany one intersting in fotografi15:58
vladovgfrom yu gais15:58
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ifreqanyone using dropbox?16:01
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slonopotamusno, why?16:01
ifreqwell wrong chan for a starter16:01
slonopotamusifreq, use git16:02
RST38hJaffa: breaks down the moment ou switch to computer screens :)16:02
ifreqslonopotamus: git is avail for every major OS and easy to setup?16:03
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cvandonderenis USB networking in Windows already possible with the N900?16:09
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Stskeepscvandonderen: yes, it is with n8x0 too16:13
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lcukStskeeps, it looks kinda complex to setup16:13
cvandonderenStskeeps: in which mode do I have to connect the USB then? PC Suite mode? and still use that 770 network driver as on
* Corsac slaps Khertan around a bit with a large trout16:14
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cvandonderen(I'm on Win7 x64)16:14
Stskeepscvandonderen: no idea on win7..16:14
Stskeepsbut the RNDIS issue was fixed16:14
Stskeepsbut i think pc suite driver has usb networking in it16:15
cvandonderenso then I need to install the Nokia PC Suite?16:15
cvandonderenhate that behemoth :-P16:16
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cvandonderen310MB installation :'(16:18
RST38hscrew it16:18
RST38hout of the whole pcsuite you only need a driver or two16:19
cvandonderenyeah, but you can't select anything16:19
cvandonderenit is all or nothing16:19
cvandonderenhope that uninstalling will keep the driver...16:19
kontiocvandonderen, here my script for usb-network:16:19
kontioIS_USBNET=`/usr/bin/sudo /sbin/lsmod | grep g_nokia`16:19
kontioif [ IS_USBNET ]; then16:19
kontio        /usr/bin/sudo /sbin/modprobe -r g_file_storage16:19
kontio        /usr/bin/sudo /sbin/modprobe g_nokia16:19
kontio        /usr/bin/sudo /sbin/ifconfig usb0 up $MYIP16:19
kontio        /usr/bin/sudo /sbin/ifconfig usb0 up $MYIP16:20
cvandonderenkontio: Windows ;-)16:20
Stskeepsor just ..16:20
kontiocvandonderen, on N900 side :-)16:20
Stskeepscvandonderen: that's for the N900 side16:20
Stskeepskontio: contribute it to wiki16:20
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cvandonderenbut then Windows still doesn't have the USB network driver, does it?16:20
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kontiocvandonderen, sorry I just use linux :-) don't know what windows needs...16:21
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cvandonderenwell, let me try if the driver now works :-)16:23
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kontiodoes somebody have a simple example for a fremantle desktop widget, which is transparent (semi-transparent)? I hacked something together, but the background is black and my nice wallpaper isn't visible :-)16:25
kontiodo I need cairo or is this doable with GTK?16:26
Stskeepskontio: you make the window RGBA some claimed16:26
Stskeepsand then it works16:26
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cvandonderenkontio: does that script work in Windows for you?16:31
cvandonderenit does not give any ouput on the N900 and Windows does not detect a new device...16:31
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cvandonderenand now in the root shell on the device it says: user is not in the sudoers file (I'm root)16:34
* cvandonderen is by far not nerdy enough for this16:34
kontiocvandonderen, ups sorry... I added the "user" into the sudoers file... remove all the /usr/bin/sudo and start the script as root...16:35
kontioassuming you have rootsh installed...16:35
cvandonderengot that16:35
kontioand first I plug in the usb, then if it asks what I want, I don't choose anything, I click outside of the popup... then I run the script...16:36
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cvandonderenkontio: nothing happens on my Windows machine when I run the script...16:39
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kontiocvandonderen, sorry in that case I can't help you, I don't have any windows near to test with...16:41
kontioand my windows knowledge is really bad :-)16:41
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kontioback to my transparency problem... in the example 1.2 Source under: where and how would I set "RGBA to the window" as Stskeeps suggested before? and which is my window?16:43
cvandonderenlet's hope Nokia comes with one soon then ;-)16:43
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Stskeepskontio: zareem or something in here dealt with same issue16:44
Stskeepskeep an eye out for him and he can probably answer16:45
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kontioStskeeps, OK thx :-)16:45
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lcukmgedmin, maybe the "this channel is logged" could say "this channel is logged and visible in google ;"16:45
mgedminisn't that an obvious corollary?16:45
SpeedEvilI prefer 'This channel is logged. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law'.16:46
RST38hlcuk: By the way, was that cat willing to do the stuff you made pictures of? =016:46
Lynoure"court of lol"16:47
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mgedminkontio: maybe16:49
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RST38hmgedmin: what language is he using?16:51
kontiomgedmin, thx I'll check that out :-)16:51
archebytehey all..16:53
archebyteI am trying to ssh into my N900 but can't seem to get in from my laptop (ubuntu).. the connection simply hangs after entering the root password....16:55
archebytewhat am I missing?16:55
archebytessh out of the N900 into my laptop is working fine..16:56
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Stskeepsarchebyte: disable power saving16:56
archebytehmm.. let me give that a shot.. tks..16:57
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FirebirdEr, why does the homepage show Downloads for OS2006...17:00
Corsacbecause you're back to 200617:01
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Firebirdmust of time travelled over night17:02
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archebyte@Stskeeps that did it thanks!17:03
archebytenow on to USB networking..17:04
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lardmananyone know how to access the light sensor?17:12
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SpeedEvilIs there source for the q3 package - IIRC that used it17:13
lardmanreally? how?17:14
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SpeedEvilI dunno.17:15
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SpeedEvilI heard comments earlier it was used for the fire button17:15
lardmanoh right, cool, thanks17:15
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SpeedEvil(10:32:29 PM) RST38h: javis: The quake3 Nokia guys made for n900 uses proximity sensor as the fire button. You close it with your finger and fire away17:16
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lardmanah proximity17:17
RST38hI think there is a n easier way to find the code sample for proximity sensor17:18
SpeedEvilOr strace something that uses it17:18
lardmanwell the kernel diff will also say how17:19
Shapeshifterdoes fennec on the n900 use the fraud/phishing detection service?17:20
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archebyteI can't seem to make a file executable on the N900. I copied the file (usbnet) onto the N900.. it copied with user:root owner and 755 permission.. using 'chmod a+x usbnet' does not change the permission. whats going on here?17:23
lardmanarchebyte: might be on the vfat partition?17:23
lardmanarchebyte: how did you setup usbnet out of interest?17:23
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archebyte@lardman I am just trying it out.. using the /etc/init.d/usbnet from my N80017:25
lardmanah ok17:25
crashanddie_archebyte, you probably have the file in the wrong location17:26
lardmanpart of ~ is vfat17:26
crashanddie_and if it is mounted with noexec...17:26
archebyte@lardman.. yup.. I copied it onto the /home/user/tmp..17:27
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archebyteI will move it to the system dir and try again. Thanks!17:27
crashanddie_/home is ext317:27
crashanddie_/home/user/MyDocs is vfat17:28
lardmancrashanddie_: it's not noexec'd afaicr17:28
lardmanat least I'm sure I was executing code from /home/user/MyDocs17:29
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lardmanmay have changed now though I guess17:29
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crashanddie_it ain't17:31
archebyte@crashanddie_: tks17:31
crashanddie_well, /home/user/MyDocs is noexec17:32
crashanddie_/home should be fine17:32
archebyte@lardman: /etc/fstab shows MyDocs with vfat noauto, nodev,noexec17:32
lardmanah ok, might be my memory or something then ;)17:33
lbtJaffa: you care about sync (contacts etc)17:33
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VDVsxJaffa, ping17:38
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VDVsxah nevermind :)17:39
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lardmanargh, that bloody "Unable to connect to one or more accounts" is driving me mad!17:43
VDVsxX-Fade, ping17:43
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kirmadoes N900 standard browser have facilities to access location data? (somehow I feel pessimistic...)17:43
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sevardI have an 810 and I've been trying to figure out rearranging the applications menu for quite sometime.  Does anyone have any insight on this that my exhaustive googling hasn't brought up?  It is seemingly impossible to take something from the Extras menu and put it in the Utilities menu after the application has been installed once.17:44
lardmankirma: how do you mean? To use for e.g. Google lookups?17:45
Vladoocontrol panel17:45
kirmalardman: primarily to get GPS coordinates, but potentially also to access landmark database17:46
lardmankirma: I guess a plugin could do the job17:46
Vladooan manig wath ever yu want17:46
kirmaand controlling if the lat/lon coordinates are formed from cellids or agps or whatever17:46
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lardmankirma: why would you want to do that in the browser though?17:47
kirmaaccess location information, you mean?17:47
kirmaor landmarks specifically?17:47
ShapeshifterIs it possible to install fennec in the sdk?17:47
sijk something like that probably17:48
* sp3000 has 199 karma17:48
sp3000under other circumstances, that could have been annoying ;)17:48
RST38hOne more bug report...a few more comments...17:48
kirmasijk: indeed.17:49
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kirmaI'm wondering if maemo 5 has landmark database like S60 at all17:50
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kirmaif both coordinates and landmark database could be accessed from web sites/wrt after user approval, one could write many applications like "next bus home/whatever" as web 2.0 style stuff and in addition avoid using too much battery or creating redundant landmark databases for user to maintain...17:51
sevardVladoo: holy, hell.  How did I miss that?  thank you so much :|17:52
Vladooglad to help17:52
sevardI feel so idiotic.  It's been like two months.  Heh.17:53
lardmankirma: sounds interesting17:53
Vladoojust ask some one17:53
Vladoo1 minute17:53
kirmaI'm still waiting location awareness to catch on in truly interesting ways. for instance, I hacked a local web server providing location data for ajax apps on S60/Python and it was nice... and could theoretically do what I want in this case, but it'd be a bit fragile implementation17:54
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sevardI wonder if the n900 will support USB host mode.  I just got a battery powered usb hub that works well with my n810 for hooking up my CF card reader.17:55
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Stskeepssevard: sources say no17:55
Stskeepsthere was a USB certification issue17:55
sevardeven without the software hack available for the n810?17:55
kirmabut once one gets reasonably accurate data from cellids and sees the landmark database, "intelligent guesses" by the application become much easier and less power hungry -> real potential for widget that would show *always* how to get home fastest using local buses, for instance.17:55
sevardbecause wasn't there the same issue with the n810?17:56
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javispedrono, the n810 supported usb otg.17:56
SpeedEvilSources are - as far as I read them - ambiguous.17:56
sevardyeah, but if it's in OTG mode it doesn't "host"17:56
Jaffalbt: VDVsx: pong17:56
Vladoodid yu du some fotografick worck17:56
sevardVladoo: what?17:57
SpeedEvilI haven't seen one statement - looked at the relevant maemo threads - that seems to be from someone with a clue.17:57
javispedroI'd say Vlad has a clue...17:57
Vladooay too nead a CF soliushon17:57
VDVsxJaffa, nevermind, I had a question about ovi maps :)17:57
SpeedEviljavispedro: I don't recall any vlad - can you link?17:58
Vladooto read 30D images17:58
javispedroSpeedEvil: er.. sorry, Igor.17:58
sevardWell, with my n810 I use the nokia pproprietary cable and a usb female to female jack to hook up to a CyberPower battery powered (rechargeable) usb hub.  That hub is in turned plugged into my targus 32 in one card reader which my cf card is plugged into.17:58
sevardMameo complains about the devices not being supported, but then a second later the CF filesystem is populated.17:59
javispedro (the original post)17:59
lbtJaffa: syncML...17:59
cvandonderenin the Qt from the repo's I cannot yet use Q_WS_HILDON?17:59
sevardThe only problem I have is reading huge JPEGs off the card from my camera with the default image viewing application.  That's solved with using "Quiver"17:59
sevardThe Cyberpower hub is really awesome17:59
sevardI got it from ebay for 8bucks17:59
Vladoomade my self usb host cable17:59
lbtJaffa: something you care about?17:59
Vladoobut widowt the ehternal power18:00
sevardYou can make a host cable, but you need power.  The n810's usb port doesn't supply power.18:00
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Vladooand it dosen want to start my reader18:00
Vladooay now18:00
Vladoowit wat yu tacke images18:00
Vladoocanon nikon18:01
sevardRight. you need a powered hub... if you're into a hackerish solution I'm sure you could hack in like 500mA/2.6 watts into the line18:01
sevardI take pictures with a canon rebel xt dslr.  Are you dutch?18:02
SpeedEviljavispedro: 'comes without usb host mode' is rather ambiguous. It can mean several things. We don't provide the driver. There is no 5V power supply. The pull up/down resistors are missing. There is a SoC bug or other issue meaning you can't set the D+/D- pins to host mode.18:02
SpeedEviljavispedro: Some of these may be fixable externally.18:02
javispedroSpeedEvil: read hw bugs part?18:02
Vladooay using canon too18:02
Vladooand s10sh18:02
Vladooin host mode18:02
Vladoodid yu traiet dis18:03
sevardSpeedEvil: it's true.  All this speculative fanboying is going to have to wait for the actual release.18:03
Vladooits great18:03
sevardI've understood most of what you said, but I'm failing to prase traiet.18:03
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Vladoomainli as a remote control for the camera18:03
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SpeedEviljavispedro: yes - this may mean bugs affecting the power supply, or pull up/down resistors, or ... In some cases this can be fixed with external hardware. Without detailed specs, further clarification, I don't think it's possible to say one way or the other.18:03
javispedroSpeedEvil: for a start, what if it's connected to the omap udc that does not support host.18:04
SpeedEviljavispedro: yes - that's of course an option.18:04
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javispedro(i really dunno if the omap udc has one such port; the pxa -- the only I've worked with -- had only one of three ports host capable)18:04
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SpeedEviljavispedro: I'm not saying it can or it can't. I'm saying I can read the posts I've seen as a software guy talking to a hardware guy, and getting answers that are slightly talking past each other.18:05
SpeedEvil(igor talking to his internal source)18:06
javispedrowhat I don't understand why there's so many people interested in usb host but no one of the "300" has begun any kind of extensive analysis of the situation.18:07
javispedroi'm sure the "is it connected to the udc port with host support" could be easily solved.18:07
javispedrowithout even opening the device.18:07
SpeedEvilThere are - to assume it's similar to openmoko - _very_ few people competant to do kernel hacking and run a voltmeter.18:07
RST38hjavispedro: Because 290 of those 300 are bloggers! =)18:08
SpeedEvilOr even read datasheets and read kernel code.18:08
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javispedroRST38h: or not interested at all in host support now (my case...)18:08
SpeedEvilI don't think the omap is NDA'd datasheet - but that sort of thing is even worse.18:08
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SpeedEvilI want to be able to plug in my hard drive, or an external keyb forex.18:09
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lbtis there an #ifdef FREMANTLE / DIABLO thing?18:10
javispedrothe pxa was much much more opened, and few people tryiend enabling host support there.18:10
javispedro(palm t|x)18:10
javispedrolbt: if including hildon, hildon has some version macros...18:10
lbt*nod* ...18:10
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SpeedEvilI should probably try to download the datasheet, but am currently depressed about yet another unaffordable device.18:10
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lbtjavispedro: I'll see what they do :)18:11
javispedrolbt: if not hildon, then I just read /etc/maemo_release in the Makefile and act (but that breaks Mer builds :( )18:11
lbtjavispedro: I've been thinking about how Mer should behave18:12
lbtI think it may pretend to be fremantle18:12
Firebirdanyone have any idea what package provides the gles and egl files under x86 sdk?18:12
javispedroFirebird: libgles2-dev18:12
lbtinsofar as it attempts to suport the fremantle api18:12
javispedrolbt: true18:12
* RST38h conducts anthropologic research via t.m.o:
javispedro(err... nice idea I mean)18:12
Firebirdjavispedro, that's armel only... according to apt-get and
javispedroFirebird: either they removed it or I've been dreaming.18:13
javispedrobtw, no gles1 in x86.18:13
Firebirdah, I see18:13
lbtwell : /usr/include/qt4/Qt/qconfig.h:# define Q_OS_FREMANTLE18:14
javispedroah, already using QT :)18:14
javispedroFirebird: [sbox-FREMANTLE_X86: ~] > fakeroot apt-get install libgles2-dev works18:14
Firebirdjavispedro, it was libgles2 that is armel only18:14
javispedrothere's no libgles2 package in x86 indeed. -dev one contains libraries.18:15
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Firebirdthere's no x86 version of the -sgx-img one either18:16
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javispedroyeah, libgles2-dev contains all you need for gles218:16
javispedroif you need gles1... use imagination sdk.18:16
VDVsxhumm, seems that I can't transfer photos to my laptop through BT, anyone with an n900 to confirm/deny ? :P18:17
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Firebirdanyways, armel version is queued for adding to extras-devel18:17
javispedrosdl-1.3? cool.18:17
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StskeepsVDVsx: there's a bug on file transfer18:17
* Stskeeps thinks there should be send file through skype/msn/etc too18:17
javispedroFirebird: if you're in mood, open garage project. 3 karma points plus I get to have a look at the patches you've done :)18:18
VDVsxStskeeps, my laptop doesn't show up on the list, it only shows phones o_018:18
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RST38hthat 9999 is wrong18:18
pupnikaight i am done with operating systems on hard drives , i think18:19
Firebirdjavispedro, haven't really patched much, only fixed the EGL attributes so far18:19
Firebirdthere was already a gles x11 driver, so I used that18:19
RST38hpupnik: read to migrate into the cloud? =)18:19
javispedropupnik: lol, moved your OS to the cloud then? :)18:19
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RST38hOh...great minds think alike18:19
pupniknot sure bout that yet18:19
pupnikbut i like usb + cdrom18:20
Firebirdoh wow, lag :o18:20
javispedroFirebird: I'd say you name the package libsdl1.3 and libsdl1.3-dev18:20
FirebirdRST38h, its an upstream git version18:20
javispedroversion 0.0~git18:20
pupnika trusted cd or dvd, plus a semi-trusted usb filesystem on micro-usb card (check out the steel "super talent" micro usb cards)18:20
Firebirdbut that would overwrite the stable sdl wouldn't it?18:21
javispedroFirebird: the stable sdl was appropiately named libsdl1.218:21
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javispedroI mean, the package name is "libsdl1.2", version is "1.2.13-2"18:23
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javispedro"1.2.8-23" actually.18:23
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VDVsxStskeeps, humm, I don't find any bug related to that issue18:23
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Firebirdjavispedro, alright, renamed18:24
* Firebird spies openarena-data in the fremantle build queue18:24
pupnikhow is stering18:26
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pupniksthis damn bwireless kbd is defective18:26
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pupnikcurse you chinese anonymity18:26
* javispedro glances at the libsdl1.2 maemo package description18:26
pupnikhave zou tested this javispedro18:27
javispedroDescription: Simple "Direct"Media Layer18:27
javispedro Altrough it claims to be "direct", it is not that18:27
javispedro direct as you can see after using it for a while...18:27
penguinbaitGod I miss ITT18:27
javispedropupnik: tested what?18:27
RST38hWhich ITT?18:28
Firebirdyea, I saw that and decided to not include the last 2 lines18:28
penguinbaitthe non-corporate ITT18:28
RST38hjavis: direct as compared to gstreamer maybe?18:28
penguinbaitit just doesnt seem as friendly anymore18:29
RST38hthe current one is not very corporate either18:29
pupnikthis new sdl build with gles18:29
RST38hah come on, what does corporation have to do with this?18:29
penguinbaitI much prefer when it was just Reggie18:29
javispedropupnik: nope, not yet. In fact I don't know remember any app using sdl-1.3 right now...18:29
pupnikwant to test the tolerance of it, go crazy in offtopiic18:29
javispedrooh, I like qgil's contributions.18:30
pupnikjavispedro, secret maryo world would be perfect on gles.18:30
javispedrowell, the ones were he doesn't sound like a marketdroid ;)18:30
Firebirdalright, its in the queue: libsdl1.3_0.0~git2009-10-17T15:34:29Z18:30
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pupnikdefintely good to talk to nokia ppl directly18:30
pupnikgood deal Firebird18:30
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javispedrothis way you can decide a better versioning scheme when it's released.18:31
penguinbaitI personally like it better when qgil would show up once a month, and was pretty quiet18:31
javispedro(e.g. 1.3.0-0maemo1)18:31
Stskeepsmorning johnx18:31
Stskeepsjohnx: i have a new-UI image if you want to test out new HIM18:31
Stskeeps(its dead slow but it works over usb net)18:32
RST38hpenguin: What is wrong with qgil?18:32
johnxStskeeps, sounds good18:32
Firebird:o "openarena 0.8.1-maemo1 has been queued for loading into fremantle extras-devel repository"18:32
Firebirdwho's doing that one?18:32
RST38hmoo johnx18:32
johnxm00f RST38h :D18:32
javispedrolol :)18:33
* Stskeeps actually likes the feel. feels more of an integrated community now.18:33
RST38hjohnx: any idea where I can find a proximity sensor usage sample?18:33
johnxRST38h, there's a proximity sensor?18:33
* lbt doesn't like the tmo colours18:33
* RST38h does not think of qgil as the top forum annoyance, not even in the first two dozen or so18:33
johnxI was wondering how that worked...18:33
penguinbaitNothing is wrong, just liked him better, when he was quieter18:34
RST38hA few excessively whining bloggers, on the other hand... =)18:34
javispedroRight now I'd prefer tmo's "balance" to go a bit back to developers "side". not much though.18:34
Firebirdjavispedro, can't put libgles2-dev in the dependencies or it will fail for armel since armel uses libgles2-sgx-image-dev18:34
RST38hjohnx: Of course there is18:34
lbtpenguinbait: I know that feeling... though not about qgil :)18:34
johnxpenguinbait, yeah, it'd be a shame if Nokia got involved in the community...18:34
javispedroFirebird: libgles2-dev | libgles2-sgx-image-dev18:34
SpeedEviljavispedro: You ain't seen nuffink yet!18:34
RST38hjohnx: the little double-window at the left sife18:34
SpeedEviljavispedro: Wait till you get the 'why won't it download apps from itunes' posts18:35
johnxaaah, I figured that was the camera and light sensor18:35
javispedroSpeedEvil: i'm already traning reading some "external" maemo fansite sites ....18:35
RST38hwell proximity is apparently done by lighting an IR LED and sensing the reflected light18:35
* javispedro wonders when the rush of people noticing it's not a symbian phone and thus they can't plan Pang XXX will appear.18:35
RST38hWell, people are already asking where the apps are all over the forums18:36
* SpeedEvil hopes no confused users were really looking for a symbian device.18:36
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javispedrobecause, answering yesterday's RST38h question: yes they have money and yes they have been preordering the device even when they have no idea what the device is.18:36
johnxRST38h, think the RGB indicator light might be IR as well?18:36
johnxor is it somewhere else?18:36
johnxguess I could find out with a camera18:36
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pupnikStskeeps: do you have howto for usb-net on n900_18:37
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Stskeepspupnik: scroll up18:37
penguinbaitso is dual booting on the n900 working?18:37
Stskeepspenguinbait: of course it is18:37
pupnik< Stskeeps> johnx: i have a new-UI image if you want to test out new HIM18:38
Stskeepswe have to wait for final sw release before putting a patch in the bootmenu installer thoug18:38
absolutejohnx: i doubt they would put IR on an indicator light... the IR stuff is supposed to be on the top side where the other buttons are18:38
pupnikah ok18:38
pupnikcool stuff ty wtg >)18:38
Stskeepspenguinbait: but it works and i've tested it18:38
johnxabsolute, but how would the proximity detector use that light?18:38
penguinbaitSo this is why Quim thinks Fanoush does not deserve a pre-release device?  Is this working for everything or just MER?18:39
absolutei'm not sure what type of component was used for the proximity sensor18:39
javispedroFanoush does not deserve a device? O.o18:40
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absolutei don't have one in hand yet18:40
Stskeepspenguinbait: uhm, council got a choice of giving out 25 with the intent of getting apps in extras18:40
Stskeepsand then there was 300 on maemo summit18:40
Stskeepsand then there was karma > 20018:40
Stskeepsgiving out as in loan18:40
pupniki would donate a bit to fanoush fund18:40
penguinbaitfanoush was droped by nokia18:40
penguinbaitcouncil picked him18:40
pupnikcommunity can donante to peopl it likes w/o nokia18:41
ShadowJKyawn, so now this device programmer crud spills over from tmo18:41
pupnikif it does not donate it does not care18:41
penguinbaitI merely asked Quim to use of of the devices collected back to send to Fanoush18:41
pupnikaskinng for other peoples money is seasy18:41
penguinbaithe stated bootmenu was already working18:41
penguinbaitas he said he would on ITT, but fanoush somehow does not qualify18:41
zerojayIt doesn't make sense to give a device to someone for hacking bootmenu when 99% of the average user for the N900 will never use it.  The whole point of handing out the tablets in the first place is to solidify software that's going to be in Extras for sales release.18:42
zerojaySo it's not that Fanoush doesn't deserve it.18:42
* Stskeeps is with zerojay on that one18:42
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zerojayIt's just that it doesn't make sense, that's all. Not at that point.18:42
pupnikdude can i please have sopme kind of fused rotfs18:42
zerojayNot when you have a limited amount of devices to hand out.18:42
penguinbaitwhat world do I live in?18:43
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pupnikcan i loan my device to fanoush_?18:43
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johnxRST38h, not so sure about it using IR for this. Think it might be clever usage of the accelerometer?18:43
VDVsxsorry but I also agree with zerojay18:43
johnxpupnik, yes. I give you permission18:43
VDVsxand fanoush got a discount18:43
pupnikoh if he haas dicount then all is wel18:43
penguinbait99% of the people didnt use bootmenu?18:44
zerojayThat's right.18:44
penguinbaitAre you serious?18:44
RST38hjohnx: No.18:44
RST38hjohnx: That thing is a proximity sensor. Consider it an axiom :)18:44
pupnikexpandable rootfs for the glorius people of kazachstan!18:44
lbtIs anyone aware of any dropbear ssh issues on maemo?18:44
zerojayIf you think most of the people that bought tablets came to ITT, you're way wrong. But I'm not talking about the older tablets. I'm talking about the N900's users.18:44
johnxRST38h, well I tried watching it with a digicam while the "phone" app was running...18:44
zerojayIt's made much more for mainstream users than the older tablets. That means even LESS people are going to be running bootmenu on a percentage basis.18:45
javispedroah, he got discount. cool enough.18:45
* Stskeeps didnt contribute bootmenu cos of a prerelease loan but because of summit loan.18:45
penguinbaitI am talking about 810 user, the ones that find it was useable after finding bootmenu18:45
suihkulokkihmm.. ir transmitter, bt, accelerometer18:45
penguinbaithow quickly we forget?18:45
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suihkulokkin900 could be hacked to a expensive wiimote =)18:45
zerojayYou are. We're talking about handing out N900s.18:45
ShadowJKI'm not using bootmenu :-)18:45
zerojayAnd Nokia's reasonings for handing them out.18:45
ShadowJK(on N800, N810)18:45
johnxsuihkulokki, it could be the wii and the wiimote :)18:46
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Firebirdjavispedro, the | didn't work, should it be || ?18:46
* javispedro checks debian depends signal18:46
absolutethere are videos of people using a wiimote with drnoksnes18:46
lbtcrashanddie_: you may know... any issues with dropbear?18:46
javispedroFirebird: Depends: libc6 (>= 2.2.1), exim | mail-transport-agent18:46
javispedroit's |18:46
VDVsxsuihkulokki, I made a attempt on that at the summit :P18:46
Firebirdjavispedro, its still trying to pull libgles2-dev18:47
johnxVDVsx, did you have a wii at the summit?18:47
javispedroif you have the alternative installed it shouldn't try to pull the first one.18:47
crashanddie_lbt, I don't use dropbear18:47
Firebirdcrap, typo >_>18:47
crashanddie_lbt, I use openssh18:47
VDVsxjohnx, nop, I use the n900 to control tuxracing in my laptop18:47
lbtcrashanddie_: fair enough - are you aware of any issues though?18:48
lbtit's a fair bit smaller18:48
lbtand /opt ...18:48
lbtand Qt18:48
RST38hjohnx: No luck?18:48
Firebirdmy brother's going to kill me for sucking up all this bandwidth to upload sdl18:48
RST38hjohnx: Then it should use some other method18:48
crashanddie_lbt, can't say I'm aware of anything18:48
pupnikis it safe to move all /usr/share to MyDocs partituion or /home/user?18:48
johnxRST38h, well, I don't see an IR LED lit up when it's in phone mode18:48
ShadowJKpupnik, no18:49
javispedropupnik: and the end result will be slower.18:49
ShadowJKwhat was MyDocs again18:49
pupnikwith symlilnk18:49
javispedroMyDocs is FAT32, thus "No".18:49
pupnikhow about symlinking individual big blobby libs18:49
johnxbut maybe there's too much light in the room to see it. (ie, It might be blending in with the reflections off the device)18:49
pupnikor rather share thinngs18:49
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pupnikis the stuff in /home mounted on bootup18:49
* VDVsx just realized that his advisor company is working directly with Apple, that explains somethings o_018:50
javispedroI'd wait for lazy packagers like me to optify their packages.18:50
javispedrodrnoksnes is now optified at least though.18:50
pupnikfilesystem ful now, so i guess iwill experiment18:50
ShadowJKwhat do you install to fill it up...18:51
pupnikjust a few thigns18:51
ShadowJKmust be porn, last time I checked nobody answered that question :P18:51
pupnikpython was nicie and fat18:51
pupniki can give list if i dont have to reflash18:51
javispedrois your tablet still bricked?18:51
pupnikwanted to give you oprofile data actually18:52
pupnikbut i think is not ready yet18:52
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zerojayAdBlock Plus is in extras-testing. Please try it out and vote on it, guys n' dolls.18:52
javispedroah, vote.18:52
javispedrodid the QA queue speed increase? :)18:53
zerojayNot that I've seen. lol18:53
javispedroah well.18:53
javispedroIf I get my dev at least I will vote RST38's apps :)18:53
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pupnikwhen u get dev18:55
javispedrodunno. still don't know what the final price is.18:55
pupnikyou have discount though, yes?18:55
javispedroyep : )18:56
pupnikis it not 30018:56
javispedrohe says it "varies from country to country"18:56
ifreqlike always18:56
* Firebird will be awaiting a subsidized version18:57
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pupnikcan someone @ nokia link me to a fresh image to flash or maybe trick to get into console?19:00
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javispedropupnik: i'd go ask that to -developers19:01
pupniki have plenty of things to work on if not possible :)19:01
pupniknah noto important19:01
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RST38hjohnx: Nokia guys say it is a proximity sensor and they use it for fire button in q319:01
pupnikuntil i am a developer i stay off developers19:01
RST38hjohnx: tested it, it works in q319:02
RST38ha bit erratically though19:02
javispedrowell, losing a week of your loaned device would be important :)19:02
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pupnikyeah but also not releasingn image to wild or to risk it mightt be mnuch more impoartant19:03
lbtanyone use ssh on the device from linux and NOT know how to do passwd-less login?19:03
pupniki forgot - hosts.allow_?19:04
lbtI wrote it up ... if you want to test+comment :
* RST38h would avoid doing that19:04
lbtRST38h why?19:04
RST38hToo easy to compromise the device19:05
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lbtsignificantly *more* secure than a password actually19:05
lbtmost secure implementations insist on it19:05
Jaffalbt: a little (care about syncml)19:06
pupnikfreenx uses such iirc19:06
lbtJaffa: I'm just interested ... I care because of egroupware and sync to local systems (not cloud)19:07
* javispedro uses openssh from inetd :)19:07
RST38hi.e. you limit login sources to your local machines?19:07
lbtRST38h: no, you use a public/private key pair19:07
RST38hyea, this will be way better than the password19:07
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lbtJaffa: and of course hermes may be relevant....19:08
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johnxof course password+pub. key is even more secure :)19:08
RST38hOn the other hand, you essentially store your password in the ~ of machine from which you log in19:09
lbtJaffa: I'd rather you'd said "yes, I need to support SyncML servers in hermes"19:09
lbtRST38h: correct19:09
RST38hSo whoever gets that key, can access the machine19:09
johnxlbt, so it can setup a chain of compromises19:09
RST38hI would stick with the password.19:09
johnxbut on the other hand, most people use the same password for lots of machines...19:09
RST38hit is in my brain.19:09
Jaffalbt: I don't need to support SyncML AFAIK19:09
Jaffalbt:  Maybe they can do pics. Maybe that *would* be interesting19:09
lbtJaffa: you do... I'm sure of it...19:10
SpeedEvilYou can also use password + ssh key.19:10
RST38hcan't be extracted without some thermorectal cryptoanalysis19:10
Arkenkloa key is generally safer than a password, because a password is easier leaked19:10
SpeedEvilWhich is secure even if someone steals your brain.19:10
RST38hArkenklo: how so?19:10
* lbt aims a gun at RST38h19:10
ArkenkloRST38h: it's more lightly that someone will sniff the password from behird your shoulder than it is for them to sniff a file19:11
* lbt wonders if he'll die to keep the pw safe?19:11
* RST38h moos at lbt19:11
johnxlbt, and gets him to hand over his ~/.ssh?19:11
lbtcan't do that though...19:11
lbtjust different approaches to getting the 'key'19:11
* RST38h makes a case for open source passwords: if you die, people can still log in19:12
lbtbut you're 100% correct that the passwd in ~ needs protecting19:12
Arkenkloholy shitnipples, I just realized that I can simply copy my ~/.ssh to mah future n900, and everything will work19:12
javispedroso you end up setting up a password for the key file, and back to stage 1.19:12
Arkenklolinux is awesome19:12
RST38hmore or less19:12
lbtluckily ssh allows a passphrase to encrypt it19:12
lbtArkenklo: yes19:12
johnxit's all just a matter of what compromises you're willing to make19:12
Arkenkloa key + phrase is better than anything19:12
SpeedEvilArkenklo: key + phrase + token19:13
Arkenklowell, within reasonable bounds19:13
lbtArkenklo: you need to copy to authorized_keys too19:13
Arkenklolbt: right19:13
Jaffalbt: I'll investigate19:13
lbtJaffa:  :)19:13
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lbtif you do support it I'll volunteer to help on that side19:14
Arkenklothis reminds me, I recently was able to retrieve a private key stored on one of my schools servers19:14
johnxwrong read permissions?19:14
Arkenklothe entire root filesystem was mounted as a network share, lol19:14
johnxif the permissions are wrong generally ssh keeps you from logging in with it19:15
johnxah, so just a brain dead setup19:15
lbtJaffa: also avatars from ?19:15
lbtand maybe maemo?19:15
* timeless_mbp looks for people who have tried a certain package19:15
lbttimeless_mbp: ah, *that* package19:15
lbtthe brown paper one?19:16
lbt*nod* *wink*19:16
Robot101"software fails in a certain situation"19:16
Robot101a bug title for 50% of the bugs :)19:16
Arkenklocat rcd.pem19:16
Arkenklo-----BEGIN RSA PRIVATE KEY-----19:16
RST38hDo we need to see that?19:17
ArkenkloRST38h: no, right.19:17
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lbta pem is a cert, not an ssh key19:17
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Arkenkloyeah, there a "BEGIN CERTIFICATE" as well19:18
lbtnothing to do with ssh19:18
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lbtyou might be able to hack the ldap server. But it's probably easier to phone up and claim to be the school admin office.19:19
lbtdebuild -b19:19
lbtsb_gcc_wrapper (gcc): /scratchbox/compilers/cs2007q3-glibc2.5-arm7/bin/sbox-arm-none-linux-gnueabi-gcc: No such file or directory19:19
* lbt likes scratchbox *so* much19:19
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Arkenkloindeed, but applying social engineering is too easy, plus I don't want it to appear as I'm actively trying to hack19:20
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* timeless_mbp frowns19:29
* Firebird also frowns19:29
lbtjeremiah: ping19:30
Firebirdwoo, "[2009-10-17 19:34:13] libsdl1.3 0.0~git has been queued for loading into fremantle extras-devel repository"19:30
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lardmanaargh, bloody Debian building!19:32
johnxfighting with dpkg?19:33
lardmannah, got some ubuntu packages I'm trying to get to build19:33
lardmanand everything it wants we don't have, in terms of the version #s19:34
lardmanis there a dh_* that tries to build a ./debian dir and fill it in?19:34
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RST38hlardman: Btw how is libchamplain stuff going?19:34
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lardmanRST38h: in extras-devel, however I don't see any output on the screen19:35
lardmanno maps anyway19:35
lardmanam talking to the dev about how to fix/debug it19:35
Jaffalbt: gravatar's a good idea. Not sure how to link on maemo.org19:35
lardmanam also part way through porting emerillon, which looks like what I was planning to write19:35
RST38hthe developer guy aggregates his blog via Planet Maemo19:35
RST38hso he should be aware of the tablets' existance =)19:36
lardmanyeah, used to work for Collabora19:36
Firebirdfinally, libsdl1.3 is in extras-devel19:36
lardmanRST38h: but has no N900 as his work was internal, so only 55 karmas19:36
* RST38h still hopes Gnuite returns and ports Maemo Mapper =)19:36
RST38hlardman: shame =(19:36
lardmanRST38h: will it not cross-compile?19:36
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RST38hAlso shame that Gnuite does not have an N90019:37
RST38hlardman: Don't think so, or it would be already in the repo19:37
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JaffaRST38h: There were issues with prototypes and NDAs going into Google offices :-/19:37
lbt<handle> | scrape-avatar19:37
infobotlardman meant: RST38h: will it not compile?19:37
RST38hJaffa: Will he get a discount though/19:37
Jaffalbt: how to find a contact's handle?19:37
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lardmanI reckon it should compile ok, with only some minor changes for the GPS stuff19:38
RST38hI mean, Gnuite could have done it as a private developer. I never order anything to my work address.19:38
JaffaRST38h: Everyone who wasn't a Nokian or sub-contractor with karma >200 got offered19:38
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lardmanRST38h: yeah, but people know his position19:38
lardmanand he couldn't come to the summit afaiu as he was doing the GSoC stuff19:38
JaffaRST38h: It's a clear conflict of interest, no matter how trustworthy to either Google or Nokia he is19:38
lardmanor so I heard19:38
lbtJaffa: add the field ?19:38
RST38hJaffa: I do not see it as a clear conflict, but yea, it can be seen this way19:39
Jaffalbt: Match on nickname?19:39
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lbt<irc handle>19:39
lardmanam beginning to wish I had picked up a loan device at the conf though so I could pass it on19:39
Jaffalbt: Will do.19:39
Jaffalardman: I think it'd've been unethical TBH19:40
JackBeSlowAnyone know what happened to canola? A long time ago development was moving at a good pace and they came out with some cool stuff. And then it seems everything has stopped for about a year now. The site has not even been updated...19:40
* RST38h hates, Hates, HATES "internet video". Who ever thought that smeary, jittery, out of focus YouTube video would be considered "normal"?19:40
lbtspeaking of which... is there an ETA for the summit video?19:41
RST38hlardman: Well that would be a violation of the NDA19:41
* lbt wants to see the talks he missed19:41
lbt(including contact/addressbook)19:41
RST38hlardman: If Nokia does not want to see Maemo Mapper in Fremantle Extras ASAP, who are we to disagree? :)19:42
johnxJackBeSlow, development is definitely still in progress but I don't think they update the site all that often19:43
javispedrowasn't m-m a fremantle star?19:43
lardmanJaffa: yeah, but Quim seemed to assume it had happened from reading TMO19:43
JaffaRST38h: Maemo Mapper was a Fremantle Star. gnuite doesn't seem to have done anything19:43
lardmanRST38h: yeah19:43
JackBeSlowah, ok.19:43
Jaffalardman: Really?19:43
crashanddie_RST38h, no, it wouldn't have been a NDA breach19:43
lardmanJaffa: did you not read the TMO thread about getting devices for devs with low karma?19:43
lardmanread the last 2 pages19:43
RST38hcrashanddie: how so?19:43
crashanddie_RST38h, well, the loan paper says you're "provided with a device"19:44
lbtgnuite has plenty of karma19:44
johnxJackBeSlow, somtimes people are on #canola (depending on the time of day)19:44
RST38hJaffa: Haven't heard anything from/about Gnuite for months =(19:44
crashanddie_it only says you have to give it back, bla bla bla, it doesn't say you are the one who has to use it19:44
RST38hcrashanddie: oh you are talking of the "new" NDA...19:44
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crashanddie_RST38h, there's only one that concerns the summit n90019:45
JackBeSlowjohnx: Already there talking to them, thanks :)19:45
lardmanwell we have to sign that one now anyway I understand19:45
RST38h <=== guy has a point19:45
RST38hlardman: I still can't figure out this one19:45
lardmanhow to do it? Or what?19:47
lardmanShould be pretty easy to achieve, would prefer to integrate it with the camera app though19:47
RST38hwhether we need to sign the second one19:48
lardmanmay be slow of course to do the processing, but c'est la vie19:48
SpeedEvilto do it right you need a tripod or a rectifier19:48
RST38hlardman: should discuss this with ab, unless he finds time to read t.m.o19:48
lardmanRST38h: oh, well the way I read it we were supposed to, but no-one replied to VDVsx's qiestion19:48
johnxtoo bad there's no tripod mount19:48
RST38hSpeed: not if you make shots in quick succession19:48
RST38hSpeed: which you CAN do with programmable camera19:48
johnxthat would have been quite cool for bikes/cars/tripods19:49
RST38hlardman: sending certified mail from here to .fi is $40. So I am reluctant for now =)19:49
lardmanwill be same sort of cost from here19:49
RST38hYes, but you can just send with Royal Mail =)19:50
lardmanand if it doesn't arrive (due to strike/stealing/random crushing event)?! ;)19:50
JackBeSlowdoes Royal Mail offer insurance? :)19:50
RST38hHas better chance of arriving than if I send it with Post of Russia19:50
SpeedEvilRST38h: I doubt the camera reads out much faster than 1/3s or so - probably slower19:51
lbthow to check between fremantle and diablo from shell ?19:51
VDVsxRST38h, humm, if you sign the new one, your loan will be reduced to 6 months, right ?19:51
RST38hVDVsx: Guess so19:51
SpeedEvil(the good camera)19:51
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RST38hVDVsx: But I hope to buy m own in these 6 months anyway19:51
VDVsxRST38h, ok, so I don't know anything about that and this conversation never happened ;)19:52
javispedroactually, do you really believe nokia will ask you for your devices back in 6 months?19:52
javispedrothey will be worthless for nokia.,19:52
lardmanJackBeSlow: only up to ~£50 or so19:52
lardmanperhaps less19:52
lbtthere's no /etc/maemo_release on the device19:52
VDVsxRST38h, I'm not sure if I can, so I'ill remain quite in the meantime19:52
JackBeSlowWhen the USPS was in the habit of losing things I started insuring letters etc for $1000, it cost me about $2 so I figured it's like playing the lottery19:54
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johnxJackBeSlow, I take it you didn't win?19:55
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JackBeSlowNope :( lol19:55
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JackBeSlowDo you think there is a chance of a price drop for the n900 in the next couple of months? I have talked myself into getting one, but the price is still staggering for me.19:58
ArkenkloJackBeSlow: the price usually is highest just after launch19:58
ArkenkloI expect some wicked cristmas-offers19:59
* lardman prays for a simultaneous drop in the Euro and amazing rise in the £ to make it cheaper ;)19:59
johnxif someone told me I had to bet on when the price drop would be, I'd say sometime in January19:59
johnxlardman, wouldn't that destroy your economy in terms of exports?19:59
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doc|homeJackBeSlow: not with the way the US dollar is going20:00
JackBeSlowArkenklo: Hmm, good point. I think I may wait until then.20:00
Arkenklojohnx: who cares, he gets his n90020:00
JackBeSlowdoc|home: Well we can already get it on amazon etc for $580 which is a heck of a lot cheaper than the price overseas.20:00
lardmanjohnx: who cares, only needs to be for a week ;)20:01
doc|homeJackBeSlow: no/less taxes20:01
lardmanand we don;t have anyone employed anymore doing any exporting20:01
Arkenklowhat's the euro-price from the nokiashop after rebate?20:01
JackBeSlowdoc|home: amazon does not tax unless you are from certain states.20:02
doc|homeJackBeSlow: that's my point. Overseas prices generally include VAT (e.g.)20:02
JackBeSlowdoc|home: never knew that20:02
doc|homeJackBeSlow: in Ireland for one, that's an extra 20/21%20:03
timophin Finland we pay extra 22%20:04
JackBeSlowIs that just a normal sales tax?20:04
DocScrutinizerVAT in Germany 19%20:05
Stskeeps25 in .dk20:05
JackBeSlowDo you guys feel like those taxes are actually being put to some good use? That seems incredibly high to me.20:06
DocScrutinizerwhich taxes ever had been put to good use? :-P20:06
JackBeSlowI mean I have a 7% state tax but that does not apply to anything I get online.20:06
JackBeSlowDocScrutinizer: :( good point.20:06
Stskeepsi get free school,uni,doctor,hospital / healthcare, etc20:07
Stskeepsi dont mind.20:07
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lardmanVAT in UK is only 15%20:08
DocScrutinizerwow, healthcare is another xx% of your income here20:08
JackBeSlowWell considering Uni costs me about $6k a year, one trip to the doctors with swine flue cost me $1200 and that was with insurance...I see your point.20:08
Arkenkloafter rebate the price in italy is 479 euro20:09
DocScrutinizerfor swine-flu?20:09
JackBeSlowMy parents medical insurance is higher than their mortgage.20:09
timeless_mbplbt: officially there's some other way to get the system version, i don't remember what :)20:09
JackBeSlowyeah it spread pretty wide here, there were a few hundred cases at my school.20:10
* frals enjoys univeristy for free and "free" healthcare20:10
timeless_mbpfrals: is your university education valuable?20:10
woglindehm what should I buy in cambridge20:10
lbtif [ -z "$oldversion" -a -x /usr/bin/maemo-select-menu-location ]; then20:10
woglindeargs there is the raynair backage limit20:10
fralswell, its one of the best in sweden, so id say so, wont know until i get a job i guess20:11
timeless_mbpi've found the people i've met in certain countries with university educations did not get something i'd consider valuable20:11
pupnikwith free university edutacions20:11
pupnikbut also now with private.  turns out these investments were overvalued20:12
pupnikand the content watered down20:12
javispedropupnik, agreed.20:12
javispedrothis happens more than what I liked....20:12
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ArkenkloI'm not yet educationally at university level, but I don't feel I have any use of anything within my scope of interest, because I already know everything20:13
woglindeArkenklo lol20:13
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pupnikpeople are asking harder questions today.  "do i need this|"20:14
ArkenkloI basically know everything about computers except SQL-syntax20:14
lbthmm. Forcing xrandr is....interesting20:14
Arkenklos/except/up to20:14
woglindeArkenklo univeristy is not about teaching comp languages20:14
Firebirdjavispedro, care to write a gles program to test sdl1.3 performance/if it works at all?20:14
woglindeArkenklo univeristy is for understabding process and making science20:14
fralsdunno, my education is about getting the "foundation" for programming languages/object oriented design/math20:15
woglindeworking scientific20:15
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javispedroFirebird: not today, I was sick yesterday and decided not to code today.20:15
javispedroand in fact I should be outside.20:15
Firebirdah, alright, I'll see if I can get something out of this OGLES book20:16
Arkenklowoglinde: indeed, but it's hard for me to compare to a concept I have no knowledge about, sql was just the first thing I could think of20:16
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ArkenkloI actually teach my TEACHER things20:17
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woglindearkenklo *g*20:17
Firebirdjavispedro, does maemo have a define like: "#ifdef __IPHONEOS__" ?20:18
woglindeFirebird lol20:19
lardmanhmm, anyone know how I get debian/rules to use autotools?20:19
lardman(yuck! ;))20:19
timeless_mbpArkenklo: anyway...20:19
Firebirdwoglinde, saw it in a SDL header file20:19
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timeless_mbpuniversity and pre university are good times to learn languages20:20
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woglindelardman hm most I saw using autoreconf directly20:20
timeless_mbplearn about culture20:20
woglindebut let me google quick20:20
Arkenklohuman culture?20:20
javispedroArkenklo: i know quite a lot of bright C.S. people (and I mean REALLY bright) who get lost when the window "Open with..." dialog comes up while they try to open un PDF files. be kind.20:20
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timeless_mbpstuff that predates the modern era20:20
timeless_mbpjavispedro: they need to upgrade to GMail20:20
lardmanwoglinde: ok, thanks20:20
SpeedEviltimeless: you mean like before... before 4chan?20:21
timeless_mbpgmail solves that problem...20:21
timeless_mbpSpeedEvil: grr20:21
Arkenklotimeless_mbp: unless you're talking about computer hardware, you lost me20:21
timeless_mbpArkenklo: see, University is a great way for you to learn what i'm talking about20:21
timeless_mbpit'll help you when you travel to BoFs20:21
javispedroFirebird: lbt was asking this moments ago.... If you're using hildon, you have a predefined HILDON_VERSION macro. If you don't, you can read /etc/maemo_version file in the makefile and define the macros yourself.20:21
javispedrobut /maemo_version file is not present in device, only from maemo-version package in autobuilder.20:22
javispedroer.. sdk.20:22
woglindelardman hm all I found is autotools-dev package which should explain it20:23
woglindedont know if it is maemo20:23
* timeless_mbp goes to try to hunt dinner (again)20:23
* javispedro goes outside for a walk. see you.20:24
woglindegood lick timeless20:24
lardmanwoglinde: such a pita all this stuff20:24
woglindeargs luck20:24
woglindelardman in oe we do inherit autotools_stage20:24
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woglindeand sometimes have to delete old autoconf stuff20:24
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woglindeto get the newer libtool forinstance20:25
ArkenkloI still think that the knowledge gained in classrooms is far overshadowed by that gained by simply playing around with stuff20:26
crashanddie_Jaffa, you up for drinks next week?20:27
* crashanddie_ lost his mentor today :(20:27
woglindeArkenklo hm theoretical computer sience is a must20:27
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woglindeso you can judge some implementations20:27
Arkenklowoglinde: please define20:27
crashanddie_woglinde, not true20:27
woglindecrashanddie bah20:27
crashanddie_woglinde, first rule of computer science: any implementation done by anyone else than yourself is UTTER SHIT20:27
woglindeO notation20:27
woglindecrashanddie *g*20:28
glasswoglinde: theoretical is necessary to understand why some guys came up with utter shit implementations despite theoretically being fairly capable20:29
glassah well, that, and reading dilbert20:29
woglindeglass yes we must have smoething to seperate aus from the avaerage php-programmer slave20:30
crashanddie_Arkenklo, it's like with anything. If you want to be a doctor, but don't understand the theory behind what you're supposed to analyse, how are you any good at it?20:30
woglindeargs I am typing to fast20:30
Arkenklofor me, learning the theory is obligatory in all situations20:30
Arkenklootherwise you haven't learned anything20:30
crashanddie_programming is not based on the language you used20:30
glassplaying around with stuff gets to know how the stuff really goes20:30
pupnikthe questionr should be how much theory, not whether or none20:30
crashanddie_the language, aka syntax, is just there to enable you, but the real magic happens in the way you see the issue and solution20:31
Arkenklocrashanddie_: absolutely20:31
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zerojayVDVsx: By the way, no, signing the new NDA will not mean we have to return our year loaners back in 6 months. Quim already answered about that.20:31
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RobertH[AU]hey all, can anyone tell me how hard would it be to recompile gcc on the sdk to include fortran support so that i can compile octave?20:32
Arkenklomaybe it's just me, but the best way for me to learn (and more importantly, understand) the theory and mechanics behind somethingis to see it in action20:33
lardmanRobertH[AU]: hmm, nasty20:33
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lardmanRobertH[AU]: try compiling f2c and using that20:33
woglindelardman fortran?20:34
lardmanRobertH[AU]: iirc it worked last time I tried to compile octave20:34
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woglindejo ph520:34
lardmanwoglinde: yeah20:34
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pH5hej woglinde20:34
woglindelardman ah right ocatve use it20:35
mgedminwhat's with skype file transfers on the n900?20:35
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Arkenklothat's one of the reasons I'm attracted to FOSS, everything just makes sense20:35
woglindeArkenklo lol20:35
lardmanwoglinde: yeah, all engineering/maths sw is written in it20:35
zerojaymgedmin: Um.. okay.. what's with skype file transfers on the N900?20:35
Arkenklothings are where you expect them to be20:35
woglindeArkenklo nope20:35
mgedminthey don't work20:35
mgedminI get a message "$foo sent file $filename" then nothing happens20:35
woglindeArkenklo try read about forks and flames20:35
zerojaymgedmin: I never expected file transfers to work.20:36
woglindeArkenklo try to find about theo de raadt or joerg schilling20:36
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zerojayDon't work on the other protocols.. but then again I don't see a "send file" for them.20:36
mgedminneither did I, but why the message then?20:36
mgedminI'd understand "$user tried to send file, but this is not supported yet"20:36
Arkenklowoglinde: "A flame fork is essential metal tubing connected to a propane tank."20:36
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woglindearkenklo *sigh*20:37
zerojaymgedmin: Yeah, strange. Maybe they just weren't able to finish it yet in the firmware we have.20:37
mgedminheh, I can imagine the source code20:37
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mgedmintranscript_window.add_message("USER sent file FILENAME");20:38
mgedmin/ TODO: now do something with it20:38
RobertH[AU]lardman: i have tried that but i either get a "error: linking to Fortran libraries from C fails" error or a "error: cannot compile a simple Fortran program" error20:38
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* mgedmin accidentally discovers a new IRC feature: double // at the beginning is equivalent to /say /20:38
woglindemgedmin isnt it a client feature?20:38
Arkenklowoglinde: I'm not going to read about any Theo de Raadt if I don't know why I should20:39
lardmanRobertH[AU]: you have to modify the configure script iirc20:39
luke-jrmgedmin: duh20:39
fralspretty sure its client specific ;+20:39
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luke-jrwoglinde: all /commands are client features20:39
mgedminxchat fwiw20:39
lardmanRobertH[AU]: what platform is this?20:39
luke-jr// is common to most (all?) clients as /me20:39
Proteous/nuke luke-jr from orbit20:39
RobertH[AU]i'm running the maemo 5 sdk on ubuntu 8.10 32bit20:39
woglindeArkenklo because you said in FOSS world all is at it should, but it isnt20:40
luke-jrNUKE Proteous20:40
woglindeArkenklo and its a science topic at our university20:40
fralschannel wide ctcp :(20:40
luke-jrfrals: that's what /me is ;p20:40
Arkenklowoglinde: not in the entire FOSS universe20:40
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luke-jrfrals: /me ... == /ctcp <channel> ACTION ...20:40
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* Proteous thinks luke-jr doen't know what he is talking about20:41
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zerojaySo why don't our clients interpret it as /me then if it's the same? :)20:41
lardmananyone here built ethos for maemo or debian?20:41
zerojayAnswer: it's not.20:42
* frals hugs his mirc32 with proper /me20:42
Proteousirssi ftw20:42
luke-jrProteous: try it ;)20:42
luke-jrWireshark it20:43
RobertH[AU]lardman: do you recall what need's to be modified in the configure script?20:43
luke-jrthere is no difference between /me and CTCP20:43
ProteousTESTING 11320:43
Proteousnope, not that same as /me20:43
* timeless kicks proteous20:43
lardmanRobertH[AU]: you'll probably need to alter the test which fails20:43
lardmanah, now I remember20:43
Proteous/me is not ctcp...20:43
RobertH[AU]lardman: haha, alter as in remove?20:44
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timelessplease don't do channel wide actions20:44
wjtProteous: yes it is20:44
lardmanthere's a shell script you can use in place of g7720:44
luke-jrProteous: CTCP ACTION, duh20:44
lardmancalled, iirc fort77, which uses f2c20:44
luke-jrtimeless: you're banning /me ?20:44
RobertH[AU]lardman: ok thanks :)20:44
lardmanso get that installed and tell the configure script that's what you're using as your FORTRAN compiler, and all should be right as rain20:44
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RobertH[AU]lardman: is the reason that fortran is not enabled in gcc because of some arm architecture issues?20:45
Arkenklowoglinde: if I didn't totally suck at arguing I'd be happy to continue20:46
Arkenklobut I do, so I can't think of anything to say that isn't pointless and dull20:47
zerojayluke-jr: You must be using some fucked IRC client.20:47
luke-jrzerojay: it has nothing to do with clients20:47
luke-jrit's a protocol design thing20:47
GAN900zerojay, any additional success with the browser plugins?20:47
GAN900Also, what about shipping a hosts/CSS .deb?20:48
lardmanRobertH[AU]: something like that, plus not many of us want it ;)20:48
zerojayluke-jr: Well, you're wrong because I ran through about 6 clients and none of them see /ctcp action and /me as the same.20:48
lardmanRobertH[AU]: is this for the N900?20:48
Proteouswell, he's partialy right20:48
zerojayGAN900: That can be done... just a little worried about wiping out changes the user may have made.20:48
Proteousbut only in the sence that saying TCP is the same as FTP20:48
luke-jrzerojay: what if someone else sends it?20:48
zerojayluke-jr: Same thing.20:49
Proteousthe /me functionality is a feature of CTCP20:49
Proteousbut they are not one in the same20:49
zerojayClients all see /ctcp or /me. Never mixes or gets them wrong.20:49
zerojayGAN900: No luck yet on Flashblock. I think I might not be using an old enough version.20:49
luke-jrzerojay: there is no protocol difference between CTCP ACTION and /me20:49
luke-jrso that is impossible20:49
zerojayluke-jr: Well, the clients show there must be. :)20:50
RobertH[AU]lardman: yes, i read a post on tmo that said frotran used to be in gcc in the sdk's (ages ago) but hen was removed bcuase of some arm issue but the post also meantioned it might not apply now that its armel20:50
lardmanapplies to GCC 3, not to GCC 420:50
lardmanno idea why20:50
zerojayGAN900: And AdBlock Plus is now in extras-testing.20:50
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RobertH[AU]lardman: ok, so that issue should be gone. does this mean i can try with fortran enabled? i've never compiled gcc though i imagine it would be quite involved20:51
RST38hCan Adblock+ be configured from the new microb?20:51
lardmanyeah, as we use a pre-built toolchain it may be very painful20:51
lardmanI'd recommend using fort7720:51
RobertH[AU]i'll look into it20:51
lardmanand just compiling and installing f2c (which the fort77 script uses)20:52
RobertH[AU]but i'll have to do that tomorrow, its 2 am here in Perth Australia20:52
RobertH[AU]night all20:52
lardmanis actually very easy, fort77 pretends to be a compile, etc20:52
* luke-jr wonders if anyone sees this as the CTCP message it is20:52
RobertH[AU]thanks for your help lardman20:52
zerojayRST38h: Let me try.20:52
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lardmannp, catch me tomorrow evening20:52
RobertH[AU]lardman: ok cool, i'll try in the morn20:52
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lardmangood luck :)20:52
zerojayRST38h: The dialog that lets you pick which subscriptions you want does not work, which is why I'm packaging it.20:53
mgedminthe traffic here is killing me20:53
zerojayRST38h: Preferences button from the Add-Ons menu works.20:53
zerojayWhat traffic? This is quiet.20:54
luke-jrzerojay: nobody said that looked like CTCP20:54
RST38hbut the subscriptions work right?20:54
* mgedmin was trying to catch up with the entire scrollback20:54
zerojayluke-jr: No one cares.20:54
* mgedmin demands iptables for maemo 5 again20:54
zerojayRST38h: taking the patterns.ini file from your PC install works.20:54
* mgedmin will keep demanding in very firm voice until somebody gives in and builds them for him20:55
zerojaySo if you have your subs done on your PC, you can transfer them over and they should work.20:55
zerojayBasically I'm just taking the default patterns.ini file from the default EasyList sub and bringing it over since you can't seem to select it yourself.20:55
zerojayYeah, the dialog isn't very functional at all. :/20:56
mgedminmaemo mapper on fremantle is coming!
zerojayRST38h: Only reason I didn't just grab all the country specific ones and stuff them all in patterns.ini is that I wasn't sure if that was going to cause the tablet to slow down or not.20:56
zerojayRST38h: Might try that next.20:57
RST38hzerojay: Grabbing all will most likely slow things down20:58
RST38hzerojay: Configuring depending on locale may work better though20:59
RST38hBut patterns do not auto-update, right?20:59
zerojayRST38h: No, but I'll be putting out a bumped version of the package on a monthly basis with the only change being the updated patterns.ini file.20:59
RST38hAh, thanks =)21:00
zerojayMore if anyone thinks it needs to be updated more often.21:01
pupnikwhat is max n900 fm transmitter range observed?  about 90cm here for a clean signal21:02
* RST38h wonders what will happen when you stick n900 into a Pringles tube21:02
pupniki am impressed idiot governments havent made the fm xmitter a regulatory nightmare21:03
johnxpupnik, from the passenger seat of my car to the antenna sticking out of the a-pillar on the driver's side21:03
crashanddie_RST38h, the end of the world21:04
pupnikabout 2m there i guess21:04
RST38hpupnik: They have21:04
johnxpupnik, it's a small car :) maybe less than 2m (1st gen subaru impreza)21:04
RST38hBut fortunately it has been TI's problem, I guess21:04
zerojayIsn't that what the large hardon cylinder thingie that's going to end the world is? An n900 in a pringles can?21:04
RST38hPropelled at the speed of light, yes21:05
johnxzerojay, fruedian slip?21:05
pupniklarge hardon cylinder is nice freud21:05
zerojayjohnx: Nope. :)21:05
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zerojayJust my nickname for it.21:06
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pupnikit would be very dilbert if they created a stable black hole or somethin likke tha21:29
mgedminI wish had a browsing interface like
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woglindemgedmin write a whishbug21:32
* timeless_mbp sighs21:32
timeless_mbpmgedmin: why?21:32
woglindetimeless_mbp whats up?21:32
zerojaymgedmin: - not good enough?21:33
timeless_mbpwoglinde: well, i'm watching bones21:33
woglindetimeless_mbp hm21:33
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timeless_mbpbut i'm trying to figure out if there's some way we could encourage people to be less ... something when they poke bugs21:34
timeless_mbpbugs need to be limited to technical issues w/o advocacy21:34
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andre__you're quite direct in feedback.21:34
andre__and people don't know much about internal political issues.21:34
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mgedminhm, zerojay, you're right, it *is* good enough for what I wanted (see all Modest bugs)21:34
andre__timeless_mbp, if we get into politics with requests in b.g.o i normally assign to quim and keep them open if in doubt. that's really his tasks.21:35
timeless_mbpgeneral browsing :)21:35
timeless_mbpandre__: i'd normally leave bugs open21:36
timeless_mbpbut if people annoy me, i'll kill them21:36
andre__i always have the gnome code of conduct in mind which says "Assume people mean well"21:37
andre__even though sometimes it's hard, i agree21:37
johnxandre__, that's pretty much my guiding principle in life, but it goes more like "Never attribute to malice which can be equally explained by (stupidity | ignorance | incompetence )"21:38
Shapeshifterdrunkenness leads to incompetence21:39
Shapeshiftersame for ignorance21:39
andre__timeless_mbp, but you have more background info than others plus you're into this for years. if n900 is successful will see reports by people that have never ever reported a bug (because it's not possible in the microsoft world). so i want it to be a polite place, even if we get reports that just waste time (-> "Please use a forum instead")21:40
pupnikdoes anyone with a working fremantle sdk think it would be worthwhile to tarball it and share via torrent?21:40
Shapeshifterwhich was first, stupidity or malice?21:40
Shapeshifterpupnik: why?21:40
pupniki am stupid about most things in the universe21:40
pupnikincludinng sdk21:40
pupniki need it all on usb in vmware ultimately21:40
pupnikright now i have to find reflective tape to avoid dying on road21:41
Shapeshifterpupnik: I don't understand, the fremantle sdk is available in two simple scripts to install21:41
Shapeshifterwhy tar and share it?21:41
* timeless_mbp likes bones21:43
timeless_mbpandre__: actually21:43
timeless_mbpreporting bugs to ms is easy21:43
* mgedmin likes regenesis21:43
andre__timeless, nowadays it's just a click, yes21:43
mgedmindon't you have to pay for the privilege of reporting a bug to ms?21:43
andre__but it goes into a black box21:43
timeless_mbphas been for ages21:43
* mgedmin admits he never tried21:44
andre__like current qt bug tracker :-P21:44
timeless_mbpandre__: hey, i've added stuff to the qt bug tracker21:44
* timeless_mbp wonders what ever happened to them21:44
andre__exactly. non transparent21:44
mgedminhm, interesting -- modest only checks subscribed folders, according to
lbtandre__: the problem is going to be for people who *do* know how to file bugs21:45
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lbtI can understand why Qt don't want a DoS attack by clueless noobies filing bugs when qmake doesn't work in capital21:46
lbtbtw where is the N900 crash reporter21:47
timeless_mbplbt: what do you mean?21:47
lbtmentioned in a bug report21:48
timeless_mbpoh yeah, we use it internally21:48
timeless_mbpand it was released for use w/ diablo21:48
timeless_mbpunder the name of 'nitro'21:48
timeless_mbpit got rebranded21:48
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lbtthat's ... helpful21:48
lbtwho the F*** cares what the crash-reporter is called?21:49
timeless_mbpvery good question21:49
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timeless_mbplemme know when you figure that one out21:49
andre__you can simply install it21:50
andre__it's available. well, after adding two more repos probably, but... :-P21:50
lbtandre__: ta - mention it's called nitro if you need it :)21:50
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Shapeshifterentering red pill mode is like entering a cheat in a game...21:50
Shapeshifterquite funny I find this.21:51
andre__crash reporter is already installed here.21:52
andre__and it's not called nitro anymore i think21:52
* andre__ checks21:52
andre__no, it's called "crash-reporter"21:52
* lbt apologises to those he wronged :)21:53
mgedminyay bugzilla!21:53
pupnikwhat commandline coulud i pas to n900 kernel to enter console runlevel or not load desktop widgets21:54
mgedminandre__: I tried installing crash-reporter and couldn't21:54
pupnikusing flasher 3.0 --boot21:54
andre__yeah, some deps i don't remember21:54
mgedminwhich repo has it?21:55
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mgedminlbt: that's... not very informative21:55
lbtit's a start... :(21:56
mgedmin"These tools are available in the official maemo 5 Fremantle tools repository at"21:56
mgedminI have the tools repo enabled21:56
mgedminit does not have libzlo2-221:56
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lbtsure - I didn't realise you'd seen it21:56
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pupnikFound device RX-51, hardware revision 210122:02
pupnikNOLO version 1.4.1322:02
pupnikVersion of 'sw-release': RX-51_2009SE_1.2009.41-10_PR_TRUE22:02
pupnikpassing 3 to --boot does not give me console22:02
pupniknor --boot 122:05
pupnikif someone knows anything i can pass to kernel to boot wo desktop lemme knw ty22:05
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timeless_mbppupnik: um22:13
timeless_mbpwhere precisely do you expect the console to be?22:13
lbtif the ui hangs how do I restart?22:13
lbtI have ssh22:13
timeless_mbpyou can press and hold the power button22:13
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timeless_mbpor do you just want to poke x11?22:14
lbtif possible22:14
timeless_mbpprobably not ;-)22:14
timeless_mbpit is22:14
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lbtS51hildon-desktop restart22:15
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* timeless_mbp shrugs22:16
timeless_mbpwhat i remember is that the device can pretend to reboot22:17
lbtthat was a proper reboot22:18
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mgedminmy ssh connection timed out *over usb0*22:56
mgedminwhat the?22:56
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johnxslow usb connection? :P22:56
johnxseriously though: crappy cables? crappy hub?22:56
* johnx plays with fremantle-n800 :)22:57
* timeless_mbp looks around23:03
johnxmer :)23:03
timeless_mbpwhat version?23:04
johnxthe one Stskeeps linked a couple hours ago23:04
johnxdon't remember if it was here or #mer23:04
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johnxdon't get too excited. it really needs at least a *little* bit of acceleration to be usably fast23:05
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timeless_mbpi'm using 0.1523:06
timeless_mbpwhat's the latest vmx?23:06
timeless_mbperr vmdk23:07
johnxprobably the 0.16 (if it finished building?)23:07
Stskeepsbuilding still in imager23:07
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Stskeepsthe thing that builds vmdk,tar.gz etc23:09
RST38hA 75-year-old dead man sat decomposing on his Marina del Rey balcony for days because neighbors thought the body was part of a Halloween display and didnt call police.23:12
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johnxkinda makes it sound like he was dead for 75 years23:12
RST38hSuch cases are also known23:13
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MrGoosewho died?23:15
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* timeless_mbp fishes for people w/ n900s23:31
johnxso what?23:31
* timeless_mbp is greedy23:32
* timeless_mbp wants testers23:32
Lynouretimeless_mbp: ?23:32
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Lynouretimeless_mbp: for what?23:32
javispedrothey're all busy playing bounce evolution.23:32
timeless_mbpmy English translation23:32
Lynoureof what?23:32
timeless_mbpthe n90023:32
Lynouremy N900 already is in English.23:32
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Lynoureonly ran into something weird with some app...23:33
ifreqi thought it comes with klingon23:33
LynoureInstructions said Ok to quit and Cancel to stay, but buttons said Yes and No23:33
timeless_mbpsounds like maemo mapper23:33
timeless_mbpor a web app23:33
timeless_mbpwe know23:34
* timeless_mbp yelled at someone about that23:34
timeless_mbpnot sure if we'll be able to fix it23:34
timeless_mbpthe hazards of caving to clueless platform ui designers with a misdirected bent on platform unity23:34
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cvandonderenis it correct that Fremantle does not use Xrandr?23:39
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woglindecvandonderen seems so23:40
woglindeit uses window atomics23:40
RST38hwatching video on these things is goooood23:41
javispedrowell, atoms are for telling the wm if the window supports/requests rotation23:41
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RST38hwoglinde: nothing, just watched a few last soap episodes on the tablet23:41
woglindejavis hm right23:41
javispedrobut I don't know if the wm itself uses xrandr to do the actual rotation.23:41
javispedroor just sets some magic flags in the compositor.23:41
woglinderst ah right some guys doubled the work and uses gst-dsp instead of gst-ti23:42
RST38hjavispedro: The most obvious idea would be to simply resize the window23:42
woglindeI like the gst-ti appriach more23:42
RST38hwoglinde: what is the difference?23:42
RST38hjavispedro: so, resizing it from 800x480 to 480x800 is not elite enough or am I missing something?23:42
javispedroRST38h: dunno, I've nothing against any of the approaches. it's just a matter of looking at hildon-desktop source and see what it does.23:43
woglinderst hm23:43
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woglinderst gst-ti has more kernel modules in the end23:44
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woglindesome with power saving23:44
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darkHelloo  everybody23:48
RST38hwoglinde: so, gst-ti is supplied by ti and gst-dsp is done by some beagle guys?23:48
felipecgst-dsp was done mostly by me23:49
felipecgst-ti is for davinci platform, depends on codec-engine, and dmai, and uses the dsp-link driver23:49
RST38hfelipec: :))))23:49
woglindeRST38h yeah23:49
woglindegst-ti is for ompa35xx too23:50
felipecgst-dsp is for dsp-bridge driver, and has no dependencies whatsoever23:50
RST38hwell I can almost guess how the choice has been motivated23:50
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felipecRST38h: how would that be?23:51
woglindeRST38h ti is trying to most of stuff public under gpl or similar23:51
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RST38hfelipec: "some weird stuff from ti depending on other weird stuff, supported by some unnamed person at ti to whom you are supposed to talk through 3 managers"23:51
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woglindeRST38h nope23:52
Macercan someone try out http://tech.rancorous.net23:52
woglindethe people are known23:52
* GAN900 really wants to stab aolsystemmsg to death23:52
Macerand just let me know if it connects and displays23:52
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woglindethey even have a channel gere23:52
woglinde #gst-ti23:52
RST38hwoglinde: then why?23:52
andre__Macer, yes, I can see a webpage. Your server works.23:52
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fralsMacer: works for me23:52
Macerawesome. thanks :)23:52
GAN900I recall why I maintained a separate AIM account for my tablet.23:52
felipecthe biggest mistake from TI was to provide two solutions, one for davinci platform and another one for the wireless stuff23:52
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RST38hMacer: Works23:53
zerojayN900so... have I missed any more ranting?23:53
RST38hfelipec: Oh...23:53
felipecboth of them deviating from the open-source implementations23:53
Macerwell.. let me start up the other vbox and see if my server crashes again23:53
RST38hfelipec: Are they unifying it now though?23:53
woglindefelpic am I right you are depening on the dsp files?23:53
Shapeshifterwhy do you people not use screen to use irc/IM from various places23:53
* RST38h uses screen. Why ask?23:54
felipecRST38h: yeah, I think that's their plan for OMAP4, but OMAP3 seems to be screwed23:54
* Stskeeps too23:54
zerojayN900because i choose not to.23:54
Stskeepsand xchat when on low latency23:54
Stskeepser, high23:54
felipecwoglinde: dsp files?23:55
mgedminShapeshifter: because screen hates me23:55
wndand then there are irc proxies23:55
mgedminit tends to fsck things up23:55
Shapeshiftermgedmin: it does?23:55
woglindefelpic the .c6423:55
Shapeshifterhow so? :|23:55
mgedmine.g. on a n900 do ssh someserver; mutt --> all works23:55
RST38hmgedmin: screen requires regular sacrifice23:55
mgedmindo ssh someserver; screen mutt -> enter no longer is an enter, but "unknown keybinding"23:55
felipecwoglinde: no, TI provide us with the final .dll64P files23:55
RST38hmgedmin: not much though, a hamster or two a week will do23:55
Shapeshiftermgedmin: mh23:55
mgedminI assume it works for you with irssi?23:56
woglindefelipec yeah in gst-ti you can work on them too23:56
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RST38hmgedmin: switch to FreeBSD and PINE, work beautifully with screen23:56
RST38hmgedmin: Besides, you get an additional advantage of using the PICO!23:56
ShapeshifterThe only problem I ever had with screen is when I used it on cygwin, where not detaching manually would lead to the session being broken and impossible to attach to again.23:56
Shapeshifterall the time23:56
* RST38h laughs satanically23:56
Shapeshifterso, screen is pretty much broken in cygwin I think.23:56
Stskeeps:autodetach on23:56
ShapeshifterStskeeps: it was on23:56
RST38hShape: s/screen/everything/23:57
mgedminalso screen tends to slow things down noticeably23:57
RST38hnot really23:57
felipecwoglinde: probably, but gst-ti is for dsp-link, which is not supported by TI wireless division, which is the one for phones23:57
felipecwoglinde: and dsp-link doesn't have power management AFAIK23:57
zerojayN900i prefer using a tablet client when i'm on it.23:57
woglindefelipec hu??? there is a kernel module for it23:58
felipecwoglinde: so? N900 is a consumer product, we need official support from the chipset vendor, and TI's solution is with dsp-bridge, not dsp-link23:58
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woglindefelipec hm yes I understand that23:59
felipecwoglinde: and again, dsp-link doesn't support power management, which is critical in a phone23:59

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