IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2009-09-25

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wiretappedis the n900 hitting us stores this sunday?!00:01
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Robot101wiretapped: don't think so, mid-october?00:02
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wiretappedthat seems to be the source of all the 27th reports00:13
* wiretapped is ready00:13
AStormwhat about PL retailers?00:14
AStormany info on that?00:14
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AStormor DE or other countries00:14
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AStormso if everything goes well, it will hit stores ~1st october in the US00:15
RST38hAStorm: "never"? =)00:16
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AStormRST38h: wrong, is offering it already00:17
AStormin preorder00:17
RST38hSeriously though, unless it is an official Nokia blog, I doubt Sep 27 date00:17
AStormyes, it's some "behind the curtains" info00:18
javispedroyes, seems to early.00:18
AStormbut it might be accurate00:18
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AStormSep 27 is to the DISTRIBUTORS.00:18
AStormretailers have to order it from them.00:18
AStormthat takes time, so I expect some first shops to offer it on 1st if it's accurate00:18
AStorm+ other delays00:19
RST38hit is still too early date to be true00:19
AStormso it might be beggining of October, for example00:19
AStormit's possible.00:19
AStormthey have the devices likely in full production00:19
RST38hhardware isn't the only thing that has to be ready00:20
AStormyes, but software has to be dogfood-ready00:20
AStormand it already is.00:20
AStormimprovements can be done later.00:20
RST38hnot in mass market situation00:21
AStormyes in mass market situation00:21
AStormwhat has iPhone done there?00:21
Corsacthe dates I've seen for fr are more like oct end00:21
AStormshipped with a really unfinished version of software00:21
Corsacoct 22 for expansys00:21
AStormCorsac: possible too.00:21
AStormthe trick is that they can ship english-language versions before localizations are done00:22
AStormsame likely with Finnish and maybe other nordic.00:23
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RST38hAStorm: comparisons to iphone are meaningless.00:23
AStorm*Finn? or maybe Suomi. w/e00:23
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AStormRST38h: sure they are meaningful. It's the only phone on the market with major internet support for updates.00:23
Corsacinternet support?00:23
AStormuh, support for internet updates.00:23
Corsacdon't you have to plug the iphone to your itunes?00:23
AStormyes, you have.00:24
AStormbut it's easy enough00:24
RST38hHe means the jailbreaking community ;))00:24
Corsachmhm ok, internet support apple-side00:24
Corsacnot client-sid00:24
AStormas opposed to flashing firmware on other phones00:24
AStormand getting it via weird channels00:24
Corsacwell, iphone updates are reflash, aren't they?00:25
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AStormthey are, but it's automated00:25
AStormthe updates try to retain files, apps and configuration00:26
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AStormthat's what I call support for updates.00:26
AStormeven plain availability of improved firmware is better than what other phones allow00:27
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infobotAStorm meant: even plain availability of improved firmware is better than what other phones offer00:28
SpeedEvilyeah - and breaking existing functionality...00:28
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AStormSpeedEvil: happens, yes. Better than having broken existing non-functionality usually.00:28
ShadowJKS60 phones has had flash-from-PC for years and years... and now with s60v5 and s60v3.2 also pure client-side updates without need for computer..00:28
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AStormShadowJK: mmmm00:28
AStormflash-from-pc with standard USB cable00:29
AStormwith included software to do that?00:29
AStormhmm, neat.00:29
AStormusers still don't care too much for offline updates00:29
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AStormthat's why online update is so nice to have00:30
AStorm(like what S60v3.2, S60v5 and Maemo since Diablo something have)00:30
AStormheck, the phone itself could remind you to check for updates00:30
ShadowJKIf you buy a phone that is crippled by the operator though, the operator will first cripple/add bugs to the new firmware, or they just wont care and never give you a firmware upgrade00:31
AStormyes, exactly00:31
AStormthe "tunings"00:31
AStorminstead of proper changes in configuration00:31
AStormthere should be either very good, update-friendly support for operator customizations00:32
AStormor no operator customizations at all ;p00:32
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AStormmost operators could live with a few logos00:32
AStormand a bunch of default settings00:32
mavhcif you can't push a bugfix for a SMS overflow security hole over the air you'd think you'd be screwed00:33
AStormShadowJK: hey, you are still00:33
AStormsince people usually don't have data plans yet00:33
ShadowJKI am still?00:33
AStormmissed. mavhc ^00:33
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AStormso you can't push in general00:34
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AStorminstead, you can remind the user to pull/check00:34
ShadowJKWithout Internet connectivity you're pretty screwed, because operators are utterly uncooperative and wont lift a finger to push updates of any sort00:35
AStormthey could do that... send a bunch of prepared broadcast messages for example00:35
mavhcand that's why you should root all their phones and use them to DDoS their own network00:35
AStormmavhc: lol00:36
AStormstupid use of a rooted phone00:36
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AStormextra bonus if some ISP does push a rootkitbreaker00:38
AStormwhich will work against unpatched phones00:38
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AStormprompting the users to upgrade manually if auto is unsafe or impossible00:38
AStormor push an antivirus via the hole ;p00:39
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AStorm(to catch all the dumb exploits that don't patch the hole themselves)00:39
crashanddie_ShadowJK, unless the operator sold the handset and have control over it, also, if they risk losing money, they will push00:39
AStormthey don't risk losing money usually00:40
AStormsince blah blah legal print00:40
ShadowJKI wouldn't be surprised if instead of pushing a OTA update, they insisted each handset be sent to the manufacturer for update00:40
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AStormwhich of course nobody will do00:41
* ShadowJK just avoids locked/crippled phones00:41
* Mousey hands ShadowJK a palm pre00:41
AStormif a popular enough phone gets rooted in a funny way... they *will* lose money finally00:41
AStormand have to think00:41
crashanddie_in my day job I'm actually currently in the process of discussing the feasability of implementing an authentication platform for mobile devices that would allow operators to give users access to specific features -- one of the features mainly talked about would be allowing (forcing is more like the word) user access to a specific piece of information00:41
crashanddie_this comes from the idea that the more advanced the devices become, the greater the risk of a widespread "attack"00:41
Mouseycrashanddie_: goodluckwiththat00:41
AStormuntil some large operator gets bit by that, it's unlikely to be implemented00:42
ShadowJKon recent s60 you get a popup when new firmware version is available :-)00:42
ShadowJKand on Maemo we get the orange blinking ! :D00:42
crashanddie_from an authentication point of view, it's not necessarily hard -- it's the handset step that's pretty damn complicated (and out of scope for my work, I might add)00:42
AStorm*if* you have a data plan00:43
AStormit should blink some annoying message if you haven't connected and checked for updates in X time.00:43
crashanddie_AStorm, no, the whole point would be that you give users data access for such a feature00:43
AStormyou mean like minor trickle?00:43
crashanddie_minor trickle?00:43
AStormfree packets?00:43
crashanddie_only for specific updates or software pushes, though00:43
AStormgood enough00:44
AStormbut operator maintenance heavy00:44
AStormthey get to enable each update to be fetched in that way00:44
crashanddie_well, it's a start00:44
ShadowJKI guess a separate APN for updates00:45
AStormthat is, until they get an automated tool that does that00:45
AStormShadowJK: good idea, yes00:45
ShadowJKI'm not a big fan of reinventing the wheel anyway00:45
ShadowJKWhen operators stop living in the 20th century and step into the 21st century and give us the datapipe we want, we'll all be better off00:45
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AStormyeah, when they stop caring about extra $$$... oh really?00:46
AStormonce that happens (a true unlimited data plan with enough bandwidth behind it to make it fast enough), there will be no way back ;p00:46
ShadowJKWell US will always be years behind others when they've got such good lock-ins to limit competition :)00:47
ShadowJKI think it has happened here00:47
AStormwhat lock-ins?00:47
AStormit's same in EU00:47
AStormShadowJK: no, they dropped the "unlimited" part00:47
ShadowJKWell they've got different frequencies and different tech so it's difficult to make a phone that works on them all00:47
AStormvery very quickly00:47
ShadowJKthey haven't dropped it here yet00:48
AStormso it felt more like a marketing move to me00:48
AStormyeah yeah00:48
AStormcheck if you have no transfer limit00:48
AStormunless the link is fairly slow... ;p00:48
AStormor number of users low00:48
ShadowJKIf I have, it's more than 30 gigs per month, which they claimed I did last month00:48
AStormconsider what would happen if people started using those connections as main ones00:49
ShadowJKPeople have already started doing that :)00:49
AStormthey likely won't anyway (since land-based are faster, lower latency and more reliable)00:49
AStormyes, started00:49
AStormthe question is, will some kind of "boom" happen00:49
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AStormwhether really large cell-phone data transfers become common00:52
AStorm(as in, say, monthly total)00:52
AStorm4G LTE is supposed to bring flat IP(v6?) architecture00:53
AStorm3GPP LTE actually, or 4G00:54
ShadowJKhm, in 2008, 10% of the .fi population has mobile internet subscribtion...00:57
ShadowJKand 30% used "mobile internet data services"00:57
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AStormfinland is a small country and quite a special case01:03
AStormoh btw..01:03
AStorm"A data rate of at least 100 Mbit/s between any two points in the world,"01:03
AStormthis reminds me of a quote from Space Odyssey01:04
Stskeeps <- mer, hildon-desktop, mesa sw rendering01:04
ShadowJKAStorm, special case how? :-)01:04
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ShadowJKmaybe special in the way that we had competitive environment :/01:04
AStorm(corrupted)"He knew how to do it, but didn't know what it was good for. He'd think of something"01:04
AStormShadowJK: exactly that01:05
AStormand Finland has had mobile services with national range for how long in comparison?01:05
ShadowJKno national 3G coverage yet :D01:06
AStorm3G is one thing, I'm talking about voice01:06
AStormand then data (2G is ok there too)01:06
ShadowJKsince forever :)01:06
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ShadowJKThough it reached widespread use in mid 90s iirc01:07
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AStormsee, that's longer in most other countries I think01:07
AStorm*than in01:07
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ShadowJKYeah, but the infrastructure has to be rebuilt every 5-10 years anyway :)01:09
AStormno, most of it not.01:14
AStormusually it's a partial update01:14
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kpeldepends on the technology01:18
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AStorm2G -> 3G -> 3G+ -> ...?01:21
AStormor rather, 2G -> 2.5G -> 3G -> 3G+ -> ...01:21
AStormyes, base stations have to be replaced01:21
kpelwhat exactly is 3g+? HSPA? HSPA+?01:21
AStormHSPA and HSPA+ is mostly same01:22
AStormbut it is HSPA.01:22
ShadowJKgsm -> gprs -> edge -> 3g -> hsdpa (in about 7 generations) -> hsupa -> hsdpa+01:22
kpelthere are quite a few extra features in hspa+ afaik01:22
ShadowJKAnd the backbone capacity and links to the cells msut be upgraded to ethernet, and the capacity must be constantly upgraded when bandwidth is growing 10X per year on cellphone networks :)01:23
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kpelyes, it's a lot of trouble01:23
AStormnot that much really, more a question of money and how often you upgrade01:23
ShadowJKIt's also a question of trouble :)01:24
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AStormin a good modular design, the radio part would be replaced01:24
AStormbandwidth can wait01:24
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AStormsince users won't upgrade their devices fast enough01:24
AStormthen you do a lumped bandwidth update01:24
ShadowJKI mean total bandwidth use, not individual user's maximum speed01:25
javispedroStskeeps: wow01:25
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AStormtotal bandwidth is unimportant01:25
AStormwhat is important is peak bandwidth01:25
javispedroStskeeps: glx?01:26
AStormand maybe RMS bandwidth ;p01:26
Stskeepsjavispedro: mesa on virtualbox01:26
Stskeeps(sw render)01:26
javispedroStskeeps, I mean, opengl instead of ogles. Can you test if the color swap bug appears?01:26
Stskeepsyes, it's instead of ogles01:26
ShadowJKAStorm, peak to trough is only factor of 2 or so and year on year growth was a factor of 11 2006-2007, for example :)01:26
AStormbut what was the baseline for that growth? :p01:26
AStormnote that you can't extrapolate trends too far01:27
ShadowJKyeah it was about 5X 2007-2008 :)01:27
AStormotherwise car sales would still be increasing 10% per year ;p01:27
AStorm(to 200%)01:27
ShadowJK99% of traffic produced by computers not (smart)phones :)01:28
AStormthis is the useful modelling tool:
javispedroStskeeps: but of course, very nice :) I hope the transitions are resolution independent :)01:28
kpelAStorm: out of curiosity, how many do you think are the differences between hspa and hspa+?01:30
AStormMIMO support.01:30
AStorm(on the receiver side)01:31
AStormsome firmware upgrade on the operator side01:31
kpeldownlink yes01:31
Stskeepsjavispedro: think transitions are copyrighted and we really dont want them01:31
mavhcthe software is what changes the bandwidth used though, noone sends videos unless sending videos is easy01:31
AStormmavhc: true, and even if it is easy, no one sends because there's not enough targets01:32
AStormagain, Gompertz curve ;p01:32
kpelAStorm: so if you add MIMO to 3GPP release 6 you have HSPA+?01:33
AStormkpel: let me check01:33
AStormMIMO needs communication between cells01:33
AStormbut that is likely already there01:33
kpelit adds overhead01:33
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AStormyou need 64QAM support.01:34
AStormlikely a firmware update on most well-designed sending devices01:34
kpelbut i find it hard to believe that MIMO is the only difference01:34
AStormMIMO and 64QAM.01:34
AStorm(new modulation)01:34
kpelat L1 maybe01:34
kpelthere are more features in the rest of the stack01:35
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AStorman *optional*, but reommended feature is IP support01:35
AStormflat IP.01:35
kpelthat's just one thing. There have been quite a few changes since rel601:36
AStormminor really.01:36
AStormsoftware upgrades01:36
kpelwell, maemo is software. is it a minor component?01:37
AStormnot *this* software01:37
AStormreceiver firmware01:37
kpeljust because you make changes in the baseband it doesn't mean the changes are minor01:37
AStormyou can get partial HSPA+ with one receiver01:37
AStormjust supporting 64QAM01:37
AStormthat may or may not be easy.01:38
AStorm(depending on the receiver used)01:38
pupnik64Maemo users who want to listen to lectures speeches might be interested in 'yatm' - can play back mp3/ogg/speex at faster and slower rates keeping the pitch steady.01:38
pupnik64maybe autobuilder it - console app01:39
AStormmay I point those users to sox?01:39
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AStormit has time scaling effects as well01:39
AStormwrite a simple script and you have yatm01:39
AStorm(unless yatm has some higher quality or DSP accelerated effect, that is)01:40
javispedrosox supports mp3?01:40
AStormsure it does.01:40
pupnik64you fail to grasp the essence of tai quan leep01:40
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pupnik64approach so that you may learn01:41
pupnik64<boot to the head>01:41
AStormthat's why I don't approach ;p01:41
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pupnik64ever heard that comedy skit?01:41
pupnik64very funny - 'boot to the head'01:41
AStormthe question is, why nobody used sox enough01:41
pupnik64anyway the sound quality of resampling time-stretch sucks01:41
AStormit even has fairly easy libsox01:41
pupnik64what you want is to slowdown/speedup playback within the decoder01:42
AStormpupnik64: resampling? it's not resampling01:42
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pupnik64because that way you don't get stuttering effects01:42
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AStormno, you can't simply "slowdown" playback in the decoder01:42
AStormthat would lower the pitch01:42
AStormyou have to cut the signal into pieces then reconstruct missing data (somehow)01:42
pupnik64wanna bet?01:42
pupnik64how much?01:42
AStormthen repaste the pieces01:43
pupnik64bet you whatever you want you're wrong01:43
javispedroyatm seems to cut some parts of the tune01:43
AStormpupnik64: show me.01:43
javispedroat least a constant beat gets turned into an irregular one01:43
AStormI mean, the code.01:43
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pupnik64mp3 and ogg represent sound in the frequency domain01:43
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AStormpartially, yes01:43
pupnik64in a certain slice of time, they store the various intensities of frequencies from 20 to 20khz01:43
pupnik64or something like that01:43
AStormyou can't just take the windowed signal and move apart the windows01:44
AStormyou have to regenerate signal between them01:44
AStormthat's resampling.01:44
AStormso you still get to time-stretch the signa.01:44
pupnik64each snapshot in the frequency domain can be visualized as a series of sine wave oscillators at different intensities01:44
pupnik64i.e. you have a whole series of sine wave oscillators from 20hz to 20khz01:44
AStormI know how DFT works, thanks.01:44
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AStormor MDCT actually.01:45
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pupnik64if you let them 'ring on' you can let as much time go by as you want before adjusting them to the next frame's intensities01:45
AStormor even windowed MDCT which is what MP3 does.01:45
pupnik64and the pitches stay the same01:45
AStormso you stretch window transitions01:45
AStormthat will sound uneven and horrible.01:45
javispedrothat may be what this thing does01:45
pupnik64much better than resampling and pasting different echoes over each other01:46
AStormit might work for noise-like signals... sometimes01:46
AStormwhich means speech01:46
AStormno no, not *over* each other01:46
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pupnik64no, you get a perfectly smooth transition from one frame to another01:46
AStormthe idea is that you don't really resample01:46
pupnik64completely unlike chopping-up the wave into 30ms frames and overlapping them01:46
javispedroa constant beeping "accelerated" throught this tool sounds like random beeping01:46
pupnik64that is what sox does01:46
pupnik64and mplayer01:46
AStormyou do something like: take the samples you have, run a ZOH between (or some better interpolation), lowpass01:46
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AStormuh, cut into pieces01:47
AStormall samples.01:47
AStormsince MP3 is pre-cut...01:47
SpeedEvilpupnik64: It doesn't work right - you need to rewindow the signals.01:47
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AStormyou *could* use that knowledge to improve quality some01:47
SpeedEvilpupnik64: And it's more complex than that as you're screwing with it.01:47
AStormnot a whole lot though01:47
SpeedEvilBut it's not something that's sane to put into each codec - it would be a lot of hairiness in each codec.01:48
SpeedEvilvs one filter.01:48
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SpeedEvilYou fundamentally cannot achieve a perfect pitch shifting.01:49
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SpeedEvilInformation will always be lost.01:49
AStormor missing.01:49
AStorm(and guessed, oh I mean interpolated)01:50
AStormSoX tempo effect does a smart thing for shortening01:50
SpeedEvilIf you're speeding up time, youhave to merge adjacent windows01:50
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AStormin that it uses good overlap-based check01:50
SpeedEvilIf you're slowing it down, you need to duplicate01:50
SpeedEvilYou'll always have wierd phase effects though.01:50
AStormpicking right samples to merge using least squares fit01:50
pupnik64 an analogue would be zooming-in on a jpeg. because a function is describing the color curve, you get automatic interpolation01:51
AStormSpeedEvil: not really, esp. not for integer sample ratios01:51
SpeedEvilAStorm: I mean for arbitrary ratios.01:51
AStormarbitrary ratios won't have phase distortion either in a good filter design01:52
SpeedEvilI don't think you can avoid it in the multi-tone case01:52
AStormbut that doesn't change the fact that the data has been interpolated.01:52
SpeedEvilSure you can in the single tone.01:52
SpeedEvilI mean phase distortion at the joins01:52
ShadowJKyatm doesn't slow down or speed up anything in the decoder.01:52
AStormmulti-tone is possible too, but interpolation is guess-work01:52
AStormyou can either copy a window of the signal (likely short)01:53
AStormor interpolate01:53
AStormboth solutions are guesses.01:53
SpeedEvilUnless it's a midi file.01:53
AStormcopy (+ lowpass) will work better for multi-tone likely01:53
SpeedEvilIn which case you can do it right ;)01:53
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AStormand sox algorithm is tuned for real music.01:55
AStormfor expected noise-like signals you can do extra noise restoration01:56
AStormto remove some artifacts01:56
* GeneralAntilles chuckles
ShadowJKOne of the AAC modes encodes noise just by its statistical properties :)01:56
AStorminstead of copying, you'd guess the kind of noise to insert01:56
AStormyes yes, you mean HE-AAC01:56
javispedroShadowJK: wow01:56
AStormVorbis does something similar as well, but not patent-infringing01:57
ShadowJKNot infringing on declared AAC patents, anyway01:57
AStormfor speech, you can use an inverse version of speech codec01:58
AStormlike Speex algorithms for error correction01:58
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infobotAStorm meant: like Speex algorithms for error masking01:58
ShadowJKAt the end of the day though, you can't create more information than what is contained in the original signal :)01:59
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SpeedEvilSure you can!01:59
SpeedEvilThough it won't be meaningful.01:59
javispedroyou lie.01:59
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, right :)01:59
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ShadowJKIt's funny how many people are fooled by 320x240 resolution videos upsampled to HD, with noise added to make it look like very tiny pixels02:00
sp3000hrm, why is "report abuse" louder than the actual comment text on, say,
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AStormSpeedEvil: it's guesswork anyway ;p02:01
Firebirdhm, how can you tell if library packages have made it to extras[-testing]... /me is still waiting to push his packages to testing02:01
AStormbut it's better guesswork than dumb guesses made by interpolation02:01
AStormor copy02:01
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* SpeedEvil wonders if there is a library of pathalogical cases.02:03
SpeedEvilFor example - I have a meatloaf album that some of the tracks leap out and smack you in the face with compression artifacts if encoded in mp3 under 320k02:04
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AStormSpeedEvil: MP3 is old. still, I bet LAME can do good work on it.02:05
AStormgood enough that you won't be able to ABX prove that you can hear it02:05
pupnik64 * perform filtering on decoded frame02:05
AStormnote "decoded"02:06
sp3000bug 519002:07
pupnik64looking at yatm.cc02:07
SpeedEvilAStorm: that was with lame02:07
SpeedEvilAStorm: admittedly an old version.02:07
AStormSpeedEvil: tried with VBR yet?02:07
lardman|homewhat should ~isdigit("9") return?02:07
AStormhow old?02:07
SpeedEvil(it was running on overclocked ppro 160s002:07
ShadowJKEven the yatm website says it uses soundtouch02:07
AStorm3.90.sth + is fairly good02:07
AStormbut later have many tunings02:07
SpeedEvilThe album had some wierd 70s stereo effects02:07
AStormShadowJK: oh, soundtouch is suck compared to SoX02:08
AStormit should steal^Wborrow some algorithms02:08
AStormor become a thin wrapper ;p02:08
AStormalthough it might have a slight advantage in speed.02:08 exists?02:09
ShadowJKmplayer's scaletempo is "WSOLA technique with cross correlation", "inspired by SoundTouch"02:09
AStormOpenDNS doesn't know about it.02:09
AStormShadowJK: hehehe02:09
AStormthat was also what SoX previous algorithm did02:09
pupnik64yeah mplayer tries to adjust the overlap window02:09
pupnik64it ends up bunching-together consonant frames02:10
AStormit fails miserably02:10
ShadowJKAStorm, filename not domain name02:10
AStormlink please?02:10
AStormsince "yatm" is not googlable02:11
javispedroAStorm: you might be surprised. it is.02:11
javispedrofirst hit here.02:11
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AStormit's that "Yet another time machine"?02:11
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AStormtalk about a good name02:11
AStormor a good title02:12
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zerojayMake your voice heard, plz.02:12
AStormmaybe provide a panel plugin to show these?02:13
lardman|homeargh, s/~/!02:13
AStormor desktop or whatever it's called now02:13
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zerojaySolution 1: Desktop Widget02:13
AStormpupnik64: sox uses an empirically derived window size02:14
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zerojaySolution 2: Status Area menu02:14
javispedrolardman|home: !isdigit("9") will return a non zero value, since "9" is a string ;)02:14
ShadowJKWhat about Settings->connection manager ;-D02:14
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javispedroand isdigit takes chars.02:14
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javispedroso it will also emit a compiler warning.02:14
sp3000so when you're rating an app, it makes a net call without any feedback02:14
AStormShadowJK: not convenient enough02:15
zerojayShadowJK: Far too buried.02:15
sp3000so I was sorta clicking at it thinking it's not working02:15
lardman|homejavispedro: that's what I thought, but I was thinking in a different lang, hence the s/~/! bit02:15
sp3000I thumbed up this app twice?!02:15
lbtShadowJK: mean anything ? :
javispedroah, python?02:16
AStormsp3000: bad server is bad. it should be fixed to drop replayed votes02:16
ShadowJKon Symbian it's menu -> control panel -> Connectivity -> Connectivity Manager -> Active data connections, or: menu -> log -> packet data02:16
AStormmaybe by doing it like real people - tacking a random-generated id02:16
sp3000AStorm: well, or it should be just counting people, not votes02:16
AStormin the form.02:16
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sp3000since it's showing people anyway02:16
sp3000so now I get listed twice :)02:17
AStormhe :)02:17
* sp3000 feels special02:17
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sp3000I liked how it was showing me "9 out of 10" with "10 up 0 down" before I reloaded02:17
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lardman|homejavispedro: MATLAB02:18
AStormI like votes with stdev shown02:18
AStormgood for esp. larger number of ratings02:19
AStormnice measure of polarization as well02:19
zerojayShadowJK: Yes, again, that's far too buried especially on a device where you're bound to use more data naturally.02:19
AStormmenu->log->packet data is almost good02:20
ShadowJKOn the other hand, this is the kind of device where its entire design purpose is defeated by not having always-on connectivity, so it'd be kinda silly to not have unmetered plan ;)02:20
AStormalbeit a panel plugin would be nice for people who have to track usage all the time02:20
AStormor maybe show it in browser?02:20
AStormI don't really know the Maemo 5 UI, other than it looks cool02:21
AStormdon't know what is possible there02:22
AStormpupnik64: soundtouch has one plus - all of its effects are real-time tunable02:23
zerojayShadowJK: Except that almost no parts of the world have unmetered plans so...02:23
AStormyeah, like 1GB02:23
AStormor even <shudder /> prepaid02:24
AStormwhere your connection can just end.02:24
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SpeedEvilA spike meter would be nice.02:25
AStorm(in subscription data plans, it usually only downgrades to very low speed - here it's 64 kbps)02:25
AStormSpeedEvil: ?02:25
SpeedEvil'don't bother me if I'm using the device and datarate is under 10k/s or a total of 1M/session'02:25
SpeedEvilBut I want to know right away if something uses 400K/s or 2M02:25
AStormyou mean like ntop?02:26
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SpeedEvilStupid silent flash animation ate 20M of my 3G quota the other night02:26
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AStorm - this is how ntop looks like02:27
AStormbut a variant optimized for tiny devices02:28
AStormspike detector is fairly trivial02:28
SpeedEvilyeah - very.02:28
AStormbut it won't discern loading a website from loading a flash movie in short bursts02:28
AStormgood enough though, maybe someone can make a MicroB extension like that02:29
AStormI can't write XUL/JS that well02:29
AStormwhat's more, MicroB has enough info to know that it's e.g. flash dling a lot of data02:30
ShadowJKI always surf with images and flash off when on metered :)02:30
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zerojayMight as well just be on a standard cell phone then.02:31
AStormthere's metered and metered02:31
ShadowJKNah, on opera mini I just set image quality to lowest :)02:31
AStormmetered comes in three kinds: 1) you pay more 2) link breaks 3) link degrades02:31
* ShadowJK used to have 20meg monthly quota :D02:31
ShadowJKof the "you pay more" variety02:31
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AStormI am "lucky" to have the last variety02:32
ShadowJKthen they came out with the 100meg package, that was awesome02:32
AStormso can e.g. use IRC and view websites on slow link02:32
ShadowJKand then the 64kbps unmetered :D02:32
AStormand even maybe check mail ;p02:32
ShadowJKnow I have 2Meg unmetered02:33
AStormyeah, 64kbps is likely similar to a width of normal phone call02:33
ShadowJKand live outside 3G coverage area :/02:33
ShadowJKI used to not even get edge here02:33
AStormthat's why they could give 2M unmetered02:33
AStormsince few people will have access anyway ;p02:33
ShadowJKExcept there was one base station 10km away with edge. If I covered the phone with hands, the signal would degrade and it would have to switch to another cell02:33
ShadowJKand if I was lucky it picked the one with edge02:34
AStormI had a funny problem once, in the mountains02:34
AStormthe phone saw 2 cells with similar signal02:34
AStormand switched between them02:34
AStormsince it's HSPA and not HSPA+ (which sports cell coordination), the connection broke on each switch02:35
AStormjust a funny place with almost equal signal from both cells02:35
AStormmoved some meters down, all was good ;p02:36
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AStorm(actually, it was "almost equal with some very narrow band of low signal between the coverages")02:37
AStormdumb phone tried to switch cell each time it got that low signal02:37
ShadowJKWhen I drive to city, I can start downloading a file when at home (edge), drive into gprs-only, back into edge, into 3g, into hspdpa (not +), and reverse order on the way home, without the download breaking02:38
AStormyes, that usually works02:38
AStormexcept when the phone tries to switch net every 5 packets02:39
AStormthen TCP throttles connection to hell02:39
zerojayKind of sad having a device this good and just being on EDGE.02:39
ShadowJKweb browsing suffers a bit02:39
AStormhint for Nokia: use TCP Veno policy02:40
AStormit's in mainline kernel02:40
AStormnet.ipv4.tcp_congestion_control = veno02:40
AStormthis sysctl.02:40
ShadowJKreno and cubic available on n81002:41
ShadowJKdoesnt the sending side need this too..02:41
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AStormI mean, for maximum gain, why not.02:42
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zerojaywhat the fuck... something used 30+MB in the last two hours since I reset the data counters.02:42
zerojayAnd I've been on wifi almost the entire time.02:42
SpeedEvilYou need a spike meter! :/02:43
zerojayEven just ntop would be nice.02:43
SpeedEvilI've made somethign that goes 'bing' for my 3G connection - when it's moved a me02:43
javispedroi personally won't use the n900 in any non-flat plan.02:44
AStormthat's the Veno paper02:44
SpeedEvil'Flat' plans here all have fair uses02:44
AStormthere have been some extra enhancements to Veno too02:44
lardman|homezerojay: you leave it connected all the time?02:44
javispedroA salient feature of Veno is that it modifies only the sender-side protocol of Reno without changing the receiver-side protocol stack.02:44
lardman|homeI guess that's the idea mind you02:45
javispedroSpeedEvil: agreed. which is why that means "no cell data" for me.02:45
AStormjavispedro: yes, so you gain regardless of the ISP.02:46
javispedro(actually, I then steal the bandwidth from my alma mater ;) )02:46
AStormit will be best if your ISP uses a mobile-friendly congestion protocol as well02:46
javispedroi'm not used to tcp parlance. "sender" as in sender (who emits data) or "sender" as in host?02:48
AStormsender is the side that sends packets. ;p02:48
AStormwhich means, the one who uploads.02:48
AStormstill, TCP is session-based, so you gain regardless02:48
AStormsince two-way communication is always necessary02:49
AStormat least for ACKs02:49
javispedroso you gain "few".02:49
javispedroit's the remote host the one who would have to enable Veno02:50
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AStormyou gain still, and that is good02:50
AStormesp. you gain when actually uploading data02:50
* SpeedEvil tries to work out when he tried to implement this.02:51
GeneralAntillesAh, more good fun
AStormas a bonus, your TCP flow will compete favorably with other TCP flows in the network02:51
GeneralAntillesI LOVE that thread. :D02:51
AStormSpeedEvil: implement what? :)02:51
javispedroAStorm: your _upload_ flow.02:51
SpeedEvilMy connection to my favourite mud sucked in 1992. It had lots of packet loss - 25% or so02:51
SpeedEvilI simply hacked in a linear backoff not exponential02:52
AStormjavispedro: which means your download too02:52
SpeedEvilOr linear after 3s - I forgot.02:52
AStormif your upload flow is dead, you can't send ACKS02:52
AStormso the server will retransmit02:52
javispedrowhat use is a 100% fine upload flow in such a congested network?02:52
javispedrodownload will suck either way02:53
AStormthere's suck and suck02:53
SpeedEvilit's not congestion02:53
SpeedEvilit's packet loss due to bit errors02:53
SpeedEvilDifferent things.02:53
AStormor other errors, yes02:53
javispedrobut same as they affect both upload and download.02:53
AStormnot same02:53
javispedro(in this concrete example)02:53
AStormReno will cut your upload rate on error02:53
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javispedroon upload error.02:53
AStormso the ACKs won't reach the target in time02:53
AStormso your download speed drops02:53
SpeedEvilPacket loss of >30% or so and you're guaranteed exponential backoff to silly proportions some of the time02:54
AStormSpeedEvil: even a burst of total packet loss02:54
javispedroand I agree with that.02:54
AStormand that tends to happen on cell nets02:54
javispedrobut I don't see why enabling Veno on a host will magically help its download speeds in an apreciable way02:55
javispedroso yes. acks will now flow. but there's still 30% packet loss. the receive window will suck.,02:55
AStormyes, if you use Reno02:56
AStormif you use Veno, it shouldn't scale the window down02:56
javispedroif the other end uses Reno.02:56
AStormtrue, their windows will scale down02:56
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AStormit's still a major improvement02:56
javispedrowell, I don't have benchmarks to rebate that :)02:57
AStormsince as your ACK reaches the destination, their windows will quickly scale up02:57
AStormthis paper does have benchmarks.02:57
zerojaylardman|home: When I'm home, I leave it connected all the time to my home wifi. When I'm out, I leave it connected to my cellular data. That doesn't mean I wanted some 30MB download to happen though.02:57
lardman|homeno, fair enough02:57
lardman|homeC question, I would like to do something like this: if(data[0]=="9"){}02:58
lardman|homeit won't work, why not?02:58
javispedroAStorm: then again, we're talking about noise. ACK packets are small.02:58
javispedro(or should be :P)02:58
lardman|homewell presumably as the "9 is tucked away somewhere as a pointer to some data"02:58
AStormlardman|home: what type is data[0]?02:58
lardman|homeit's a string02:58
AStormmaybe data is a string02:58
lardman|homeoh, well that's a char then02:59
AStormotherwise, use strcmp02:59
AStormthen data[0] == '9'02:59
AStormcompare char to char :)02:59
lardman|homeah, single quotes02:59
AStormnot char to string02:59
lardman|homethey are different?02:59
AStormsure yeah (in C)02:59
javispedro(char to int actually :P )02:59
lardman|homeyeah, ok, was wondering if it was a quote thing02:59
AStormjavispedro: char to const char*. fair?03:00
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AStormor rather, const char const *03:00
javispedroAStorm: char to const char * ("9"), but char to int ('9')03:00
AStormlardman|home: I recommend -Wall03:00
AStormjavispedro: no, '9' is char.03:01
AStorm9 is int.03:01
javispedronot in C.03:01
AStorm(int)'9'  is int.03:01
lardman|homeanyway, time for bed, cheers for the help03:01
AStormchar is convertible to int.03:01
lardman|homeI'll leave you all to "discuss" :)03:01
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zerojayDoes ntop allow you to see bandwidth use by app?03:01
AStormzerojay: not sure, I'd have to install it again on the new machine03:02
AStormbut I think it is possible03:02
javispedroAStorm: <nitpick mode>'c' is int according to the spec</nitpick>03:02
AStormjavispedro: orly?03:02
javispedrosizeof('c') = 4.03:02
AStormso I can do like, memcpy(charvar, intvar, sizeof(int))03:03
AStormtotal evil03:03
javispedrochar is char. it's just that '' constntats are ints.03:03
AStormmemcpy(&charvar, &intvar, sizeof(int))03:03
AStormso that you can write wide characters?03:03
javispedropalmos used to abuse them03:03
AStormno, that would be '9'L03:03
javispedro'appl' was the magic 32 bit code for application db type03:04
AStormgcc will warn about this03:04
AStormI'll better check the spec03:04
AStormmaybe this has been standarized in C99 or something03:04
snuxollevery time I see 'appl' I think of .app bundles from NeXT and OS X03:04
javispedroAStorm: actually, it's prrety old.03:04
AStormbut is it really standard?03:05
javispedroI don't remember right now what C++ did03:05
javispedroI think so.03:05
AStormsome language "feature"03:06
AStormC++89 differs there03:06
AStormC++98 even ;p03:07
snuxollC++ "features" heh03:07
javispedrowow it's true03:08
AStormwell, it's logical that a character constant is of the same size as character variable03:08
javispedrothey diverge on that point.03:08
javispedrosizeof('a') is 1 in g++03:08
javispedroi see that g++ emits a warning upon 'appl' but then emits an int rvalue either way.03:09
AStormGNU extension.03:09
AStormI wonder if C++0x changed this behavior03:09
AStormyes, it did03:10
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AStormhmm, not entirely sure03:12
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javispedrothose are null terminated03:13
AStormthe new ones might be u'\uxxxx' U'\Uxxxxxxxx'03:13
AStormor w/o the u, wiki is not clear about that03:13
javispedroc++0x is sick03:13
AStorm"For the purpose of enhancing support for Unicode in C++ compilers, the definition of the type char has been modified to be both at least the size necessary to store an eight-bit coding of UTF-8 and large enough to contain any member of the compiler's basic execution character set."03:14
AStormno, it's great. not sick at all.03:14
javispedroit's great. but too big.03:14
AStormheh, compare with, say, Java.03:15
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AStormsee what is big.03:15
javispedroJava actually has few features.03:15
javispedrofrom a language point of view.03:15
AStormfewer, not few. and far less powerful features.03:15
javispedrobut I see that as a good thing.03:15
tush726I am trying to install maemo on fedora 10. I completed the scratchbox installation03:15
tush726I am getting the error close all scratchbox sessions03:16
tush726while trying to install the SDK03:16
AStormjavispedro: really, not many more features.03:16
tush726and also that the user assigned to maemo is not a sudoers file03:16
AStormtush726: blame fedora scratchbox package maybe?03:16
AStormyes, it's tricky to build that environment from scratch (pun intended)03:17
tush726i installed scratchbox from the script provided on the website03:17
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AStormhmmh, that should've worked03:18
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AStormcould you pastebin the error message?03:19
AStormjavispedro: some features are, yes, meh and rarely used03:19
AStormbut many are extremely good03:19
javispedrobut I fear the day when someone uses one of the darker features.03:20
javispedromuch like I'd fear a perl guru ;)03:20
javispedro(stereotype, yes I know. sorry :P )03:20
AStormjavispedro: like what darker features?03:21
AStormI fear people who say they're writing C++, but don't really know templates03:21
AStorm(including funny features like SFINAE)03:21
javispedroI fear people abusing templates. In fact, from what I read, C++0x plans to fix that somehow with constexprs and such.03:22
AStormabusing? ;>03:22
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AStormyes, at times templates have been "abused" to implement various language extensions03:23
AStormit's not really abuse if done well03:23
AStormwhat is needed is better error reporting when they're in use03:23
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tush726anything i could do ?03:25
javispedrosometimes I just enjoy the verboseness of java .... :)03:25
AStormverboseness and piling hacks for missing generic programming03:26
AStormor rather ILike IExtra INterface IMixins IN IJava ISix03:27
javispedrothat would be C#03:27
AStormthat is Java 6 as well, unless they did it wrong03:27
AStormlet me check03:27
AStormI got rusty on Java recent features03:28
tush726 any help? only two error messages03:29
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AStormjavispedro: ah, that was Java 5 feature :)03:33
AStormand C# version of generics is more powerful03:33
javispedroI guess you mean annotations?03:34
javispedro(by mixins, I say)03:34
javispedroeither way java never introduced the I prefix in their guidelines iirc.03:34
tush726SDK installation output till wherever i reached
* javispedro wonders if that script every worked in fedora, seeing it calls dpkg --compare-versions03:35
AStormjavispedro: no, generics. It means an object that can work as x different others.03:36
AStormw/o inheritance.03:36
AStormin C++ (not C++0x), this is fairly tricky to do03:36
javispedro(" ILike IExtra INterface IMixins IN IJava ISix")03:36
AStormclass GenericAppliance : not derived from List but works as one.03:37
AStormis that even possible in Java now? ;p03:37
AStormI bet not.03:37
javispedroyou mean Interfaces!03:37
tush726has anyone tried a fedora installation for the SDK?03:37
AStormjavispedro: not exactly03:37
AStormI mean classes that implement many interfaces at once03:38
javispedrogenerics is that List<String> stuff in java parlance03:38
AStormin other words, mixins03:38
javispedroimplementing multiple interfaces has been since the first days I think03:38
AStormyes, and it doesn't interact with interfaces, so I can't have a class looking like a generic List<foo>03:38
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AStormso the usual workaround is not using generics there, but generics based on interfaces03:40
AStormlike, IList<foo> foo = bar03:41
AStormthat is not possible.03:41
AStormwe have to thank type erasure for that.03:41
javispedroi don't follow yo03:41
javispedroyou say I can't make class A implement List<B> ?03:42
javispedroiirc I can.03:42
AStormyes, you can't.03:42
AStormsince List<B> will be erased to List03:42
javispedroyes. and?03:42
javispedrothat will happen at code generation time.03:42
AStormso I can do IList<int> blah = yourlist (which is List<foo>)03:42
javispedrothe compiler won't let you.03:43
AStormgenerics don't interact well with interfaces03:43
javispedrounless you're in some weird compatibility mode.03:43
AStormit won't let me implement List<foo>, List<bar>, List<baz>03:43
AStormcheck it.03:44
javispedroi'm not sure about that either.03:44
AStormhmm. ok, right, bug of Java 5. Fixed in Java 6.03:45
* AStorm feels ashamed.03:45
javispedrowell, if it was a bug, then you are partially right ;)03:45
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AStormlet's call it a misfeature03:46
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javispedrodo you know the bug#?03:50
javispedrobecause it seems you're right03:50
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spencer_anyone knows where i can find a good tutorial on how to use libtools/autoconf/automake on sb??03:51
javispedrobut either way I don't see what type erasure has to do with that. in fact, to get over that absurd limitation I could just create an extra class C extending B. heh. I guess those are the "hacks" you were talking about.03:51
javispedrolol this exact "hack" is banned in the java spec.03:53
AStormexcept creating a derivation tree is incompatible with mixins03:54
AStormsince then you don't have a mixin anymore, you have a class that is derived from all the classes implementing interfaces.03:55
javispedrothus the hack lol03:55
AStormeither hundred of empty classes03:55
AStorm(well, I'm exaggerating)03:55
AStormto create a small inheritance tree03:56
AStormbut that won't work either I guess.03:56
AStormso, anyway.03:56
AStormthat limitation has been lifted I think.03:56
javispedroi tried to compile a test case in 1.6 source mode and it failed, so I don't know.03:57
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spencer_anyone knows where i can find a good tutorial on how to use libtools/autoconf/automake on sb??03:57
AStormthere are no good tutorials on any of those in normal usage03:58
AStormand you expect us to find one for sbox03:59
javispedrosbox shouldn't be any diferent.03:59
AStormthat was what I wanted to add ;)03:59
AStorm - yes, Python is powerful ;p03:59
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spencer_somehow my conf linked ar as the compiler rather than gcc :(04:00
spencer_anyone can help?04:00
AStormspencer_: check if your CC var is set correctly04:01
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AStormlikely is not, and so you need to fix it04:02
AStormscratchbox configuration menu should do it for you04:02
AStorm(just pick another arch/compiler)04:02
AStorm(e.g. switch between x86 and arm code compilation)04:02
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spencer_env does not have CC.. i guess that's why04:04
AStormno, then the default of cc should be used04:04
AStormor gcc04:04
AStormdepending on autotools version04:04
b-man16hmm is missing in my SDK installation even though maemo-sdk-dev is installed :(04:05
AStormlibtool has hardcoded compiler config files as well, so it shouldn't try to use ar as a compiler04:05
AStormb-man16: heh.04:05
AStormI think I dealt with this before too04:05
AStormbut I don't remember how I fixed it04:05
javispedrob-man16: nokia-binaries?04:05
b-man16that's installed04:05
javispedroin your target?04:06
javispedrosure? :) nokia-binaries should pull that package04:06
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mau_mexHello some one can tell me hoy can i fix this , whaen I try login to /scratchbox/login04:12
mau_mexbash: /scratchbox/login: Permiso denegado04:12
mau_mexPermission Denied04:13
Firebirddid you add yourself as a sbox user?04:14
Firebirdthen logged out and back in so you're in the sbox group04:14
mau_mexi am sure abouth that , but hoy can I confirm?04:14
javispedromau_mex: "groups" command should print "sbox" somewhere.04:14
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mau_mex:s there is not sbox on /etc/group , i check it 5 minutes agoy before reboot and i`m sure i saw it...04:17
GeneralAntilles"Moblin Garage"04:18
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javispedroactually, it resembles more than garage.04:22
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Firebirdwhy doesn't the package manager in maemo look like that :o04:27
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AStormFirebird: have you seen the Maemo 5 one?04:33
Firebirdlooks the same as the maemo4 one last I looked04:33
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luke-jr__Fonera 2.0N advertises 3G support :O05:26
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luke-jr__oh, via USB...05:29
luke-jr__and it's bulky looking05:29
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wazdGoogle hits Android ROM modder with a cease-and-desist letter06:14
johnxwell I guess that just about sums up my misgivings with android06:15
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GAN8001Hooray Mini 9 OS X06:16
johnxit's funny, cause at work I end up using a netbook when I need linux over mac os x :)06:17
johnx(though mac os x is workable in most cases)06:17
GAN8001johnx, I'm just going to be using VMWare06:18
johnxwait, on the mini 9?06:18
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GAN8001Got it on the 8GB even06:19
johnxsooo, mini 9 with os x with vmware on top of that?06:19
GAN8001Nah, VMWare on my dual E5520 Mac Pro. ;)06:20
johnxah, apple gave you an early christmas present?06:20
GAN8001They overnighted it06:20
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GAN8001I was so suprised when FedEx showed up06:20
GAN8001Since I was expecting UPS06:20
johnxsooo, bit faster than the G5? :D06:21
GeneralAntillesJust a touch06:22
GeneralAntillesEspecially the single 1.8GHz G5 I was stuck on.06:22
GeneralAntillesIntel X25-m 80GB on the way.06:22
johnxyeah, I'm still on an A64 1.8GHz. it was feeling slow recently until I learned some process had gone crazy in the background and had been running for weeks :)06:24
johnxnow it's quite nice again :D06:24
GeneralAntillesa 1.8GHz G5 is slow no matter how you cut it.06:24
johnxmac os x is a hungry OS. not that it's not really awesome some of the time, but you can't say it's lightweight06:25
GeneralAntillesSure, but it pisses me off way less than GNOME.06:25
johnxthe thing about being forced to use 2 OSes (mac at work, linux at home) is that both piss me off about 50% of the time06:26
GeneralAntillesYeah :\06:26
GeneralAntillesI'm way used to OS X's quirks, though.06:26
johnxopposite for me06:26
johnxreally loving the keybindings on OS X now that I've tuned them, but the lack of focus follows mouse and smart window placement  and that single menu bar drive me up the wall06:28
johnxthen I get on ubuntu and the mail/contacts/calendar situation makes me want to stab someone (or pay someone)06:28
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johnxhey rm_you :D07:04
pupnikhow does one judge a mail/contacts/calendar suite...07:06
pupnikrequirements, tastes vary so much07:07
johnxoh, I judge lots of things :)07:07
johnxuhm, yeah. it's very much a personal tastes thing I think.07:07
johnxI think I like simple, separate tools better than one big application07:08
johnxI really did like the o-hand pimlico stuff, but it kind of looks unmaintained07:08
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pupnikyou use them regularly?07:09
pupniksync btwn work schedule and home/portable schedule?07:09
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johnxthe pimlico stuff? not at all. maybe I should look at what features are actually missing for daily use07:10
johnxhey zelrikriando07:10
johnxthough one thing going forward is that I do need caldav, so that cuts down my choices a lot07:10
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zelrikriandoHave you guys heard about what google did to android07:15
zelrikriandosorry to be offtopic :p07:15
johnxyeah, I heard they made it into a mobile phone platform :)07:16
johnx(no worries about the off-topicness when it's so quiet07:16
zelrikriandoThey asked the guy who did a popular rom to stop doing it07:17
zelrikriandoso basically they gave a huge kick in the custom android roms07:17
johnxwas he redistributing proprietary code against license agreements to lots of people?07:17
zelrikriandoSo yeah, they claim that gmail,youtube and stuff are proprietary07:18
zelrikriandobut he was distributing it on phones that had licenses...07:18
microlithif they're proprietary, only google can distribute them07:19
johnxyeah, I'm sure the license didn't allow redistribution07:19
microlitheven if the person who uses the rom has a license07:19
zelrikriandoThat kinda sucks though07:19
zelrikriandoit s against the spirit of android07:19
microlithsee the devkit with devphone, setup requires you to let the installer pull some libraries off the phone07:19
johnxwonder what the situation would be if someone tried that with maemo :)07:19
luke-jrzelrikriando: Android was never free07:20
zelrikriandois there proprietary parts in maemo07:20
luke-jrMaemo is probably a bit more free than Android, but still not completely07:20
zelrikriandoso no custom roms for that one either hu07:20
johnxa couple of the apps and strangely the internet connection daemon07:20
johnxbut maemo gets more free with each release07:20
luke-jrzelrikriando: Not out of the box, no07:20
johnxand there is a distro based on the free parts of maemo, called mer07:21
luke-jrzelrikriando: Mer aims to be compatible with the Maemo packages07:21
luke-jrand Gentoo can sortof make use of some too07:21
zelrikriandoso of course, lots of people are mad at Google (me kinda too since I use custom roms)07:21
johnxnokia has been pretty friendly about figuring out some way to redistribute the proprietary bits with mer so that people can keep using the non-free bits, but it takes cooperation, not just going off and redistributing without asking07:22
microlithno real reason to be, and the sdk is open so they should get cracking on replacements, or figure out how to transition the apps07:22
zelrikriandomicrolith: it's pretty hard to keep a good experience without google apps07:23
luke-jrI am 100% anti-proprietary, but I wouldn't violate copyright law.07:23
luke-jrzelrikriando: you replace them, that's how.07:23
microlithzelrikriando: yes, but that's not google's problem07:23
luke-jror, like microlith probably meant, provide a legal way to migrate them07:23
zelrikriandoI use all those apps07:23
microlithluke-jr: yes07:23
zelrikriandoI got that phone because I make heavy use of google apps07:23
johnxusing proprietary apps often requires giving up some freedoms07:24
luke-jrzelrikriando: it's quite possible to make a desktop app that downloads apps from the phone and reuploads them after you've flashed07:24
johnxthough it sounds like a tool to extract the apps that could be distributed to people who already have the phone would be totally legally unassailable07:24
zelrikriandoyeah there are workarounds07:24
luke-jrthen you could download those Google apps, flash, and upload them to the new ROM07:24
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zelrikriandoThere is a tool to backup apps07:25
luke-jrbut I don't think there is a Google product I am willing to use07:25
luke-jrzelrikriando: so use that07:25
zelrikriandobut I think gmail and youtube might be too integrated to be considered apps07:25
zelrikriandoI think it would be a mess to remove07:26
zelrikriandoespecially the google search07:26
johnx"mess to remove"? well their open source code builds into a ROM, right? the question is just adding the proprietary bits back into it (or creating free replacements)07:27
zelrikriandook so the mess would be to get them back07:27
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luke-jrjohnx: from what I hear, the open source code doesn't build into a ROM by itself07:28
zelrikriandoand oh yeah07:28
zelrikriandoGoogle sync07:28
johnxluke-jr, interesting. I've seen people build the open source code into a root fs image at least07:28
zelrikriandomy contacts07:28
infobotjohnx meant: luke-jr, interesting. I've seen people build the open source code into a root fs  at least07:28
zelrikriandoIf I remove that it s not even a phone anymore07:28
luke-jrjohnx: including kernel modules?07:28
johnxluke-jr, errr...nope. but that code is open source07:29
luke-jror perhaps more relevant assuming Google is going legal route, userland drivers07:29
johnxneeds to be integrated manually with whatever kernel source you want to use07:29
johnxsomeone did the work for the zaurus07:29
luke-jrjohnx: Android phones are 100% free software on the driver end?07:29
johnxluke-jr, pretty sure, yeah07:29
johnxluke-jr, let's try that differently07:30
luke-jrnow the question is: why are we over here with Nokia? :p07:30
johnxgoogle's modifications required to the linux kernel needed for android are open source07:30
luke-jrif Android phones are already suitable in the driver department07:30
microliththere is a qualcomm library that is not free07:30
luke-jrjohnx: I only care to run Gentoo+KDE07:30
johnxthe drivers that phone manufacturers use are not necessarily open source07:30
luke-jrmicrolith: ah07:30
luke-jrjohnx: ... that's what I was just asking07:31
johnxluke-jr, google doesn't write that code07:31
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johnxthey're an upstream for people who make phones07:31
zelrikriandomy next phone will be using maemo I think07:31
zelrikriandothanks to Google07:31
luke-jrzelrikriando: that makes no sense07:31
luke-jryou're upset because you can't use Google apps for Android on your modified phone07:31
johnxzelrikriando, if someone blatantly pulled that trick with maemo they'd get a cease and desist pretty quick I think07:31
luke-jrso you want to switch to Maemo which doesn't even remotely have the possibility?07:32
johnxbecause there is code in maemo that belongs to non-nokia third parties07:32
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luke-jr"Ugh, it will take a lot of work to get Google Apps to run on my modified phone. Next time, I'll get a phone that won't run them under any circumstances!"07:33
zelrikriandoluke-jr: without google apps I dont even have a contact list07:33
luke-jrI don't get it. :p07:33
johnxzelrikriando, FYI: the maemo4 contacts app is non-free and doesn't sync to anything07:34
zelrikriandoThe whole point of getting that phone was to modify it :)07:34
johnxmodify != break license agreements07:34
luke-jrjohnx: Maemo4 isn't for phones.07:35
luke-jrzelrikriando: the only phone that really can be modified is OpenMoko so far07:35
luke-jrunfortunately, OpenMoko kinda sucks :/07:35
johnxluke-jr, merely making conjectures about licensing ;)07:35
luke-jrzelrikriando: you're welcome to join me on a hunt for a phone I am 100% free to modify software07:36
microlithluke-jr: kinda?07:37
zelrikriandoluke-jr: that should be the norm07:37
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luke-jrzelrikriando: should be, but I haven't found a good one07:37
johnxluke-jr, if all you care about is the kernel, might want to wait and see on the n900. might meet your requirements07:37
luke-jrmicrolith: no keyboard07:37
luke-jrjohnx: I care about drivers. Userland included.07:37
microlithluke-jr: I meant in the "surely you are being kind" sense07:38
luke-jrAFAIK, N900 has already been announced as non-free even in that regard.07:38
luke-jrmicrolith: back a few years ago, I might have been happy with OpenMoko if it had a keyboard.07:38
Pavlovluke-jr: you're gonna be searching for a while07:38
johnxluke-jr, do you need 3D acceleration?07:38
luke-jrPavlov: I suspect so.07:38
luke-jrjohnx: need? no.07:38
radic_where can I find tghe questionmark on the keyboard07:39
johnxthen, what else is closed source on the n900? (WRT to drivers)07:39
luke-jrjohnx: probably GPS and modem?07:39
luke-jrbattery charger?07:39
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johnxluke-jr, what phone are you using right now?07:40
luke-jrjohnx: some GE wired POTS phone, why? ;)07:40
luke-jrit even works if I unplug it ;)07:40
johnxluke-jr, did they give you the schematics for it?07:40
luke-jrjohnx: irrelevant.07:40
luke-jrI'm not asking for schematics (yet)07:41
luke-jrjust specifications to use the hardware.07:41
johnxbut you can't make pushing the 5 dial a 707:41
johnxthat's not open07:41
luke-jrjohnx: my phone has no software.07:41
johnxso you don't care about modifying the basic call-making properties?07:42
luke-jrsure I do. eventually.07:42
luke-jrwhat do you mean by that anyhow?07:42
johnxI mean, then why do you care about the modem driver?07:42
luke-jrfirst goal: modify any software.07:42
johnxprovided it's implemented in a way that allows you to upgrade the kernel07:42
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johnxyou're making good the enemy of perfect07:43
johnxand ending up using a wired POTS phone07:43
luke-jrno, perfect is not needing modification. :p07:43
johnxit's an expression07:44
slonopotamushehe :)07:44
johnxand you're dodging what I'm trying to get at07:44
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luke-jrjohnx: I'll start my crusade for open hardware schematics later, after I reach the software goal.07:45
luke-jrthen open chips after that.07:45
johnxeh, principles without reason just seems like stubbornness07:47
luke-jrreason is because I might need to modify it07:47
johnxhow many times did you need to modify your POTS phone?07:48
luke-jrIIRC, once. and I haven't figured out how yet.07:48
luke-jrso I'm stuck with a buggy POTS phone until I can find a good replacement07:49
* RST38h moos evilly07:51
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johnxhey RST38h07:52
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johnxluke-jr, just curious: do you own a car?08:03
luke-jrjohnx: yes, I have the source code for it too.08:04
johnxreally? or you can just change the fuel maps? (or are you saying it's carbureted?)08:05
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luke-jrjohnx: no, not really. I'm just being a hypocrit and taking this one step at a time.08:06
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luke-jrmy desktop machine was first.08:06
luke-jrnext is my handheld.08:06
luke-jrwell, I guess my servers were really first.08:06
luke-jrthen desktop, now handheld.08:06
luke-jrI'll move on to vehicles much later.08:06
johnxheh. there are open source ECU alternatives you know :)08:07
johnxi guess I just find the "all or nothing approach" unintuitive, but whatever08:08
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luke-jrjohnx: you're the one implying "all or nothing"08:11
luke-jrI'm only shooting for "just the software on my handheld" right now08:11
johnxsooo, "all the software must be open" isn't "all or nothing"?08:12
luke-jr"the software" is a restriction on "all"08:13
Stskeepsdear god, not this again :P08:13
luke-jras is "on my handheld"08:13
johnxalright, I repent08:13
johnxthink I'll just get an iphone08:14
luke-jralso, I never said "or nothing" :p08:14
johnxyou're the one that has a POTS phone :P08:15
RST38hAnyone can point me to documentation on using Fremantle hw buttons?08:15
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johnxluke-jr, ok, let's agree to disagree08:16
luke-jrjohnx: NO!08:16
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johnxRST38h, that's a pretty good question08:23
johnxRST38h, is there a reason you think it won't be the same as the N810?08:26
RST38hjohnx: Yes. No buttons. =)08:27
RST38hjohnx: There is still the camera button though, so I would like to know how to use it08:27
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johnxRST38h, still have zoom buttons, right?08:28
johnxand I kind of assume the camera button gets caught by some camera daemon sitting in the background08:29
RST38hThey are used for volume cnontrol08:29
RST38hWell I know how it happens in Symbian but not in Maemo08:29
johnxsounds right, now that you mention it08:29
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RST38hOk, Ctrl+Enter it is then.09:01
johnxoooor, make it configurable?09:03
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johnxwhat does the gear do?09:03
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RST38hNot making it configurable.09:05
RST38hYou want configurable - edit!09:05
Stskeepsjohnx: edit desktop widgets or add09:05
johnxRST38h, you're making a ... gui for editing
* RST38h cackles evilly09:06
Stskeepsjohnx: thats sw rendering hildon desktop09:06
johnxStskeeps, ah! I didn't get that. thought it was more tricks with awesomeWM09:06
johnxso how does the SW rendering run?09:06
Stskeepsmore interesting is how it runs on n8x009:07
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wazdMornin' world)09:08
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pupnik  'spilled' 4k demo09:08
* pupnik feels around on the floor for eyes09:09
wazdI hope today I'll be free from this slavery at last :)09:09
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johnxsaw another 4k recently that looked cool09:10
wazdBut miracles happen )) I still have a chance to be engaged in the court process))09:10
johnxwith mountains and such09:10
johnxprecedural terrain09:10
johnxwazd, well, good luck!09:11
wazdjohnx: ty :P09:11
pupnikoh yes, procedural, versus all the standard 4k, 64k demo that use bitmaps09:12
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johnxpupnik, yeah, yeah. :P did you know the one I'm talking about or should I try to find it?09:13
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wazdAl these 4-64k demos are beyond my understanding. They are just way too cool09:13
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pupniknot offhand johnx09:15
wazdDamn, I'm a bit nervous =)09:15
pupnikthis 128 byte demo ... is...09:15
pupnik128 bytes09:15
wazdPupnik: holy cow09:16
* Stskeeps offers wazd finnish vodka09:16
wazdStskeeps: I better not be drunk, cause I need to be ready for fuck up :)09:17
pupnikmost of these don't run under wine09:17
pupnikyou are presenting a project waz?09:18
wazdpupnik: I'm getting myself a ticket to freedom)09:18
wazdpupnik: the only reason why I can't leave the country will soon be solved. I hope.09:21
wazdOr I'll kill these bastards with my bare hands! Arrrr!)09:22
RST38hand claim insanity? =)09:25
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wazdRST38h: yeah, moo btw :)09:30
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wazdI think I wont survive this line09:31
RST38hwith the tablet, you will!09:31
tekojomoo all09:32
RST38h(may I suggest MSX or NES version of Green Beret? it has got the appropriate baddies)09:32
RST38h<off to work>09:32
wazdRST38h: Internet Tablet, give me power! :D09:32
johnxor: "Look! I'm playing MSX! I must be crazy!"09:33
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wazdI should have taken netbook with me)09:39
lcuk2wazd, i hope you did not mention your design skills to the army/courts they will never let you out, and russian weaponry would have the best ui ever09:47
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wazdlcuk2: the best ui is large red button)09:48
lcuk2but it would be shaded and well balanced and people would feel cool pressing it :D09:48
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lcuk2quite common lol09:49
wazdlcuk2: especially in Russia)09:50
* lcuk2 nods09:50
MyrttiHTH, HAND09:54
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lcuk2mornin Myrtti09:55
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CorsacDisponibilité: Date de sortie prévue pour le 19 oct. 0910:14
Stskeepspreorder status?10:14
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Corsacno, availability date10:16
Corsacyesterday it was oct 2210:16
Corsacif everyday it gains 3 days, I'm happy10:16
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johnxuntil you end up missing the pickup window because it was released back in 2007 and you never claimed it :P10:20
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btnzgood morning, channel10:22
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btnzas far as i've followed it's possible to install standard debian programs under maemo..10:23
Myrttisounds like A Bad Idea10:23
btnzso could i get emacs running on it?10:24
Stskeepsbtnz: look into Easy Debian10:24
MyrttiIIRC there is a maemo port of it for atleast Diablo already10:24
btnzstskeeps, ty, i will10:24
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wazdjeez, I can't beleive what I just saw!10:25
Stskeepswazd: a UFO?10:25
Stskeepsor an honest armyman?10:25
btnzmyrtti, okay that's nice10:25
wazdDoctors here are TOTALLY messed up!10:25
wazdDentist tried to fake the results right in front of me!10:26
btnzmyrtti, stskeeps: and what about my favourite scheme interpreter? will it, will it somehow or not at all?10:26
Stskeepsbtnz: does it burn on ARM? if not, maybe :)10:27
johnxbtnz, which scheme interpreter?10:27
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Myrttischeme, is it something edible?10:27
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btnzstskeeps: but basically i can run programs available for ARM?10:27
Stskeepsbtnz: easy debian is a chroot environment that uses debian's armel port10:28
Myrttisounds crunchy on the outside and soft in the inside10:28
wazdAnd when I asked yo check the results she shouted and threw me away10:28
btnzjohnx: plt-scheme (mzscheme)10:28
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johnxbtnz, often need a recompile to link against the the maemo versions of libraries (if it's dynamically linked), so to have it working without a chroot the question is "can it be compiled for ARM?"10:29
aquatixmorning all10:29
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wazdjeez, I still can't beleive they're that desperate!10:32
Stskeepswazd: time to get out of the country?10:32
wazdHoly shit!)10:32
wazdStskeeps: you bet)10:32
btnzjohnx, the source code is available, it's not the tiniest but also not a huge chunk of software, so i guess it should be possible?10:33
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johnxbtnz, yeah, definitely doable one way or another10:33
johnxa debian chroot is probably the easiest way to get it working and as long as it's available for debian armel it will definitely work10:34
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Myrttimmmm emacs10:34
Myrttifluffy pink emacs10:35
btnzjohnx, thanks, looks like it gets pretty close to an IDE-in-your-pocket, now i think i've got some reading to do (deb armel??)10:36
johnxbtnz, it's the name of an architecture (like i386, or powerpc). armel means ARM EABI little endian10:37
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Stskeepsmorning tigert10:39
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crashanddie_johnx, I don't even *want* to know how it comes you know the definition of ARMEL by heart10:49
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crashanddie_s/how it comes/why it is/10:50
infobotcrashanddie_ meant: johnx, I don't even *want* to know why it is you know the definition of ARMEL by heart10:50
Stskeepscrashanddie_: because the issue comes up so often :P10:50
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johnxcrashanddie_, because I've been hacking around with armel-related stuff since it was supported in linux :P10:51
crashanddie_I'm casually browsing /.10:52
crashanddie_Why the hell is a "web application" categorised under "hardware", and what kind of half-witted idiot would say that a "because of [the web application's] disconnected nature" in the summary10:53
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johnxoh! i know! the kind of idiot that gets picked for ask slashdot!10:55
tigertwho is casually browsing slashdot anyway? :)10:56
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* johnx is totally "on" today10:57
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glassit's stupid question anyhow11:00
glassif they've managed that far with it, they should be able to figure out how to show to user that it's being edited or locked by someone else11:01
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mihuHi. Is the latest version available for the public?11:20
RST38hThe SDK you mean? Yes11:21
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mihuRST38h: Thanks.11:21
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RST38h...visiting beauty supply stores in a hunt for chemicals needed to build bombs for al-Qaida, authorities charge...11:29
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fralstrying to learn pygtk while hangover kinda sucks :(12:04
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johnxtry pyqt instead12:05
johnxor pyside or whatever the new one is12:05
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* pupnik_ haet linux pastefail :(12:09
pupnik_"The slide in Nokia World showing the combine selling of the 5800 and N97 on 10 millions" -
pupnik_wow what a userbase12:10
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glasshmm. i think the 10m number is a month or+ old by now12:15
glasspupnik_: what was amusing that they sold a million+ 3250's in couple of months(back when it came). and that phone is seriously shitty12:15
* SpeedEvil wonders how many 3310s they sold.12:16
glassSpeedEvil: and how many of those are still in use :D12:16
pupnik_shush all nokias are wonderful!12:16
SpeedEvilglass: Fine phone.12:17
pupnik_how many symbian users are there in total?12:17
glassdunno about current approx. numbers. a lot.12:17
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SpeedEvilIt passes the test that when you sit on it, you get up because it's uncomfortable, not that you know you've just broken it.12:18
RST38hpupnik: 90% of Symbian users have no idea they use Symbian12:20
RST38hSo who knows...12:20
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tigertmost of them probably dont care12:45
tigertthey use a phone12:45
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rkirtimorning VDVsx12:58
rkirtimust be busy with summit preparations I guess..........12:58
VDVsxrkirti, hi :)13:00
fralsnice, 4 posts in a row from the same guy.. cant people use the edit function? :P13:01
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RST38hpeople can, but how do you know it is a human poster?13:01
fralsmy bad ;)13:02
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* wazd is going slightly mad13:11
wazdIiiiit finaly happened...13:12
wazdI'm dying in the infinite line13:12
Stskeepshehe :P13:12
kulvehow do 3rd party projects get a product to
X-Fadekulve: just ping andre__13:12
Stskeepskulve: ask andre i think - it's fairly easy :)13:12
wazdAnd I have to go here on monday13:12
kulveah, ok. So no automatic "get your package to extras and a bugzilla is opened for you" thing :)13:13
Stskeepswazd: is it looking better or not?13:13
wazdStskeeps: they really screwed up13:13
Stskeepsgood for you or bad? ;)13:14
wazdStskeeps: tried to fear me tt I'll be sued if my papers are fake. I said "go ahead"13:14
Stskeepsthat's fairly common practice except it's the small print on forms13:16
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johnxwazd, what's up?13:16
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RST38hwazd: So, who won?13:37
* lcuk2 baaaaaaaa13:43
* RST38h quacks for a change13:45
ccookeHmm. I think this is the nicest-looking loaf I've ever made13:46
ccookeeek. WW.13:46
RST38hwazd: I have got an idea.13:46
* SpeedEvil has managed to lose his breadmaker paddle.13:46
* SpeedEvil stabs planned obscelesance.13:47
RST38hwazd: (just don't have time to do it, so it will have to be implemented quickiedirtily)13:47
SpeedEvilI have this nice programmable in all ways breadmaker only 4 years old, that I can't get parts for.13:47
RST38hwazd: Let us make a SANE media player for the tablets13:47
ccookeSpeedEvil: heh. I don't use a breadmaker. I *do* use a decent baking stone, though13:47
* RST38h buys bread in a nearby store =)13:47
ccookebut this is overnight bread: takes about 5 minutes work the night before and ten minutes the next day. No kneading, hardly any mess.13:48
SpeedEvilccooke: I can do it the other way - but a load with literally 1 minute prep ...13:48
ccookeIt's about as complicated as a breadmaker, basically :-)13:48
ccookeSpeedEvil: *nod*13:48
ccookeSpeedEvil: I'll bet I can get a better crumb in this, though :-)13:49
SpeedEvildunno. I have one program that takes 8 hours, and is really nice.13:49
lcuk2o_O RST38h you are goin mad!13:49
lcuk2RST38h, sane is good - i gather you would use MAFW to maintain compatibility with everything13:50
ccookeSpeedEvil: I have one recipe that needs about twenty minutes work entire, but spreads it over three days...13:50
ccookeSpeedEvil: it is *lovely*. Of course, I can only start it on a Friday :-)13:50
lcuk2all the backend is there and you just need a ui13:51
lcuk2which can be built/expanded/added/hacked as required13:51
ccookeSpeedEvil: does your breadmaker get the crust right? I know some do, which is nice13:52
RST38hlcuk: Actually, I planned to sell this idea to someone, with wazd doing the UI =)13:52
RST38hlcuk: (see the mailing list thread)13:53
ccookeSpeedEvil: (I tend to use combinations of ice, room temperature or boiling water in the oven, depending on the necessary effect)13:53
lcuk2well thats not a bad idea at all13:53
lcuk2but its easier if you just try hacking something bad so white knights can jump in ;) :D13:53
RST38hlcuk: See, writing a media player is not difficult13:54
RST38hlcuk: What is difficult is making a usable UI13:54
SpeedEvilccooke: yes, which is nice.13:54
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RST38hlcuk: Right now we have Nokia's own player (half baked at best), MediaBox (with confusing UI), Canola (with 20+ second startup time)13:54
RST38hlcuk: And a few more, written in Python and not working very well13:55
* lcuk2 nods, but i actually like the nokia media player13:55
* lcuk2 is all for simplicity13:55
RST38hlcuk: There is also an iTunes-like player that MAY work perfectly if it were packaged properly13:55
RST38hlcuk: Again, see the mailing list thread13:55
lcuk2yeah, media players are like hello world13:56
lcuk2yeah i know13:56
lcuk2good media players are rare13:56
RST38hlcuk: So, the idea is to carefully go over the UI, build exactly what is needed, in C/C++ (no Python)13:56
RST38hlcuk: Then let someone else do the actual player with this =)13:57
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lcuk2actually, the best way would be going over the ui in whatever prototyping kit people feel comfortable with13:57
lcuk2implementation is next stage13:57
RST38hlcuk: Just drawing will be fine13:57
lcuk2im happy with liqbase pencil - wazd is happy in photoshop, you are happy in asm etc13:57
ccookeRST38h: a mock up might be useful as a test13:57
AchipAcan somebody copypaste me the partition layout (cat /proc/partitions) for a pristine N810 and N800 ? I'm working on some partitioning related things, but my own unit is so far from factory settings I fear it might very well bomb for other folks so I'd like to doublecheck...13:57
RST38hlcuk: I have no problems putting the UI together in GTK+13:57
lcuk2i know13:58
lcuk2like the discussion about fonts and colors13:58
lcuk2same thing13:58
RST38hccooke: I hope wazd has his say on the UI13:58
lcuk2an ideas hotbed13:58
lcuk2RST38h, i dont13:58
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lcuk2i hope the best overall ui has its way13:58
lcuk2whoever comes up with it13:58
RST38hccooke: Because he is actually a designer13:58
lcuk2(it will most likely be wazd, but we might be surprised13:58
lcuk2some unknown person might just come out of nowhere and knock us out13:58
RST38hlcuk: Probability of that is low.13:59
lcuk2of course its low13:59
RST38hlcuk: Besides, we already have enough players designed by programmers :)14:00
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* Myrtti cries happy tears14:01
lcuk2i never said anything about programmers - there is some 7 year old out there drawing uis in crayon and dreaming of how to interact with them :)14:01
Myrttimy bash scripting skillz ♥14:01
WhizMyrtti, <3 :D14:01
lcuk2:D it works Myrtti14:01
RST38hMyrtti: Hello Kitty Fremantle theme?14:01
MyrttiRST38h: I wish14:01
RST38hlcuk: Yes, the happy theory says so14:01
StskeepsMyrtti: something to get wazd doing ;)14:02
Myrttilcuk2: subdirectories didn't make the shit hit the fan as I feared :-D14:02
lcuk2RST38h, the day we stop dreaming and hoping is the day we die14:02
* Myrtti rejoices14:02
lcuk2:) good!14:02
* Myrtti does a happy dance14:02
Myrtticoffee/tea/oj and cookies for everyone14:02
lcuk2bacon butties?14:03
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lcuk2:D yayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy14:03
lcuk2with a full stomach, i must vanish, have fun folks \o14:03
MyrttiI can't digest them these days, but doesn't stop you having them :-D14:04
RST38hlcuk: Just go samurai road by assuming you are dead at the beginning =)14:04
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zerojayLadies with bash scripting skills.. yep, I think that's enough to bring a happy tear to my eye too. :)14:06
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Myrttizerojay: if you'd only know...14:11
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zerojayI'm sure you probably know far more than that anyways.14:17
MyrttiI feel like I'm high on sugar14:17
zerojayHehehe... good stuff. :)14:18
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AchipAcan somebody copypaste me the partition layout (cat /proc/partitions) for a pristine N810 and N800 ? I'm working on some partitioning related things, but my own unit is so far from factory settings I fear it might very well bomb for other folks so I'd like to doublecheck...14:24
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X-FadeHmm crap, it seems we need to import the whole gstreamer tools chain from sdk into fremantle extras-devel too.14:24
RST38hMyrtti: Star Trek too?14:26
* RST38h hides14:26
MyrttiRST38h: sorry, I'm flying so high I didn't get the reference14:26
tekojoX-Fade mail or ping Soumya14:27
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X-Fadetekojo: The problem is generally known, I just hadn't noticed the gstreamer-tools thing.14:28
tekojoX-Fade there's an internal discussion ongoing with a potentially cleaner solution14:29
X-Fadetekojo: Yeah, I know ;)14:29
X-Fadetekojo: And like the proposal.14:29
tekojoX-Fade and I guess the gstreamer-tools would work for that one too14:29
tekojoat least they could be pushed in14:29
tekojoit would make a few people happy14:29
javispedromorning #maemo14:30
Stskeepsmorn javispedro14:30
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* javispedro is ashamed of
javispedromorn lardman14:33
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Stskeepsjavispedro: can't be worse than the Mer forum thread14:35
javispedrowow. true.14:35
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mihuAchipA: Still need that information?14:36
RST38hMyrtti: Where there are shell scripting, there must be Star Trek in the interests =)14:37
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AchipAmihu: yes14:42
mihuNokia-N810-43-7:~# cat /proc/partitions14:43
mihumajor minor  #blocks  name14:43
mihu  31     0        128 mtdblock014:43
mihu  31     0        128 mtdblock014:43
mihu  31     1        384 mtdblock114:43
mihu  31     2       2048 mtdblock214:43
mihu  31     3       4096 mtdblock314:43
mihu  31     4     255488 mtdblock414:43
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AchipAmihu: where's the internal mmc ? Or did you clip it here14:45
* javispedro wows at 64 post -developers digest14:46
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mihuAchipA: Yes, I clipped the following entries, sorry, I thought these were because of my MMC card.14:47
mihu 254     0    1966080 mmcblk014:47
mihu 254     1    1926744 mmcblk0p114:47
Stskeepskeep in mind some N810s were with a faulty partition table14:48
AchipAmihu: np, thx for the info14:48
AchipAStskeeps: I've seen the notices, any suggested way of programmatically detecting them ?14:48
mihuAchipA: "mount" says "/dev/mmcblk0p1 on /media/mmc2 type vfat"14:49
StskeepsAchipA: can you give a quick summary of what you're trying to do?14:49
AchipAStskeeps: just finishing a post on talk... a bit lenghty to post, but if you're interested, why not14:49
AchipA(and yes, it's probably dangerous as hell ;) )14:49
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RockyMjuego de boxeo online
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StskeepsAchipA: you can't possibly have done crazier things than rest of community..14:51
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AchipAStskeeps: :D14:52
AchipAit's not THAT bad, actually14:53
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StskeepsAchipA: oh, hi atilla14:53
StskeepsAchipA: you did see the whole /opt discussion?14:54
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javispedroAchipA: please do. :)14:54
woglindehe javis14:55
javispedrothis is a nice proposal if we can get n8x0s to mirror the fremantle layout14:55
AchipAyes, actually that sparked the whole idea, originally this was a loop device that had bundled all the qt stuff, but thought a more generic approach - like mirroring what fremantle does can be useful...14:56
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StskeepsAchipA: maemo-optify + appspace (dm-loop on internal SD) should be quite good.14:56
javispedrothere's a problem with that14:57
AchipAI know, I have to hook in to ke-recv14:57
AchipAbeen there, done that14:57
Stskeepsmeh.. same as with swap14:57
AchipAthe osso-mmc-(u)mount thing14:57
javispedroi'd prefer an extra partition, but I guess a file is easier14:57
StskeepsAchipA: i would avoid FAT+symlink completely14:58
AchipAthat's why I want to experimnt with both, see which ones proves better14:58
AchipAStskeeps: yeah, that's a bit a black sheep, but it IS the easiest one...14:58
StskeepsAchipA: admittedly. ext2resize or fat resize comes to mind..15:00
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AchipABTW talked to some Nokians, they preferred the loop file approach, too15:01
Stskeepsdefinately dm-loop then..15:01
Stskeepsit's way faster15:01
StskeepsAchipA: it would definately help to go with maemo-optify or /opt approach15:02
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Stskeepsbecause if community SSU starts happening that might be a way too..15:02
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AchipAStskeeps: agreed, I will certainly take that into account15:06
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vesais there a way to view the 'application install memory' from the terminal?15:10
woglindevesa what?15:11
woglindewhats install memory?15:11
vesaie. if one had accidentally filled the whole device memory with apps and now dpkg wont remove stuff cos theres no memory to write some logs...15:11
woglindeappmanager is using libdpkg as backend15:11
woglindedf -m15:11
woglindetry remove some bigger file your self15:12
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woglindewith rm15:12
woglindeand run dpkg again15:12
vesadpkg: unable to open/create status database lockfile: No space left on device15:13
kulveandre__: thanks15:13
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dirk2I know that it is a FAQ, but I can't remember the answer any more ;) Any option to test Moblin live image from in a virtual machine?15:13
woglindevesa as I said15:13
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woglindeuse rm manually and then dpkg if you have enough space again15:14
dirk2uhh, sorry, wrong window, mixed moblin and maemo ;)15:14
woglindedirk2 *g*15:14
AchipAor just move them to /media/mmc if you're unsire if it cna be safley deleted...15:14
AchipAwow, i cna type 300 wrods pre minuet !15:15
JaffaMorning, all15:15
lcuk2AchipA, as long as those words are asdf jkl; then so can i ;)15:15
lcuk2mornin jaffa15:15
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woglindehe luck15:16
woglindehi jaffa15:16
vesawoglinde: right, right. thanks. i'm not too hot on *nix stuff =P15:16
lcuk2woglinde, i find "rm /var/cache/apt/archives/*.deb" to be easiest way to clean some space off - is that viable?15:16
RST38hHe is ircing from his router!!!15:16
woglindelcuk apt-get clean15:16
woglindedoes it too15:16
AchipAlcuk2: there is an easier way for that, 'apt-get clean'15:16
lcuk2cool, so that could make him some space..15:16
woglinderst hehe15:16
RST38hFlood him quick, let us see how much that wrt54g can take!15:16
woglinderst *g*15:17
lcuk2without digging through random folders15:17
woglindelcuk dpkg -L packageIwanttoremove gives some clues too :)15:17
AchipAoccasionally 'apt-get autoremove' gets handy, too :)15:17
lcuk2thats not what this guy is having problems with tho15:18
lcuk2just out of space15:18
woglindeAchipA aeh15:18
woglindethat not always works15:18
lcuk2randomly removing  files is fun..15:18
woglindelcuk rm init15:18
AchipAautoremove, not randomremove :)15:18
AchipAit just rids you of libs no package depends on15:18
AchipA(which is pretty safe if you installed all your stuff from packages, which you should :) )15:19
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woglindehm wrt reminds me15:20
woglindeto package batman for the n's15:20
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lcuk2oh no, will the caped crusader escape the clutches of the evil woglinde in time.15:23
lcuk2will robin get a date with RST38h,15:24
lcuk2find out on next weeks exciting expisode of batman15:24
RST38hlcuk: You mean, the Penguin couldn't off him and now you want ME to finish the job?15:25
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lcuk2of course15:25
lcuk2woglinde, that doesnt tell  me what batman is tho15:25
woglindemesh routing protocol15:26
woglindewith lower overhead then olsr15:26
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lcuk2hi wazd15:26
woglindeyeah and the suckers only posted compiled binary15:26
woglindefor the n's15:26
woglindedoing not the right way and making a package of it15:27
* lcuk2 nods15:27
lcuk2i bet i cant use the wifi and the mobile interface at the same time15:27
lcuk2to allow a mesh and  also exit ports15:27
woglindehm I will test it next week I think15:28
woglinderecipe for oe I already made15:29
woglindeor better I updated it15:29
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woglindehm let me see how sb2 worked again15:31
woglindeits some month I last used it15:31
woglindeah fine15:32
woglindedebian package is already there15:32
vesawoglinde: thanks, worked \o/15:34
Stskeepswoglinde: mesh over FM, wifi and bluetooth ;p15:38
Stskeepsthat too :P15:38
Stskeeps(there's a FM receiver and FM transmitter, both with RDS data it seems)15:38
doffmHello all.15:39
abwell, transmitter puts "NOKIA" on my 13 years old cd/fm player's screen in a car15:39
doffmDoes anyone know the API for starting the browser?15:39
doffmI need to launch a browser from my app when a user clicks a link.15:39
doffmAny ideas?15:39
woglindedoffm read the dev mailinglist15:40
woglindethe topic was discussed there15:40
doffmwoglinde: Thanks15:40
doffmwoglinde: How recently do you think?15:41
woglindelast 2 weeks15:41
fralscrap, fm transmitters are appearently illegal in sweden... :[ guess its hw disabled on the swedish version of the n90015:41
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woglindefrals intressting15:41
fralson the other hand the keyboard looks to be with the nordic layout (ie same for all nordic countries), wonder if its legal in fin/dk/nor15:42
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RST38hthey say it is15:42
Stskeepsnot sure about dk but who cares..15:43
* RST38h again considers mass smuggling US N900s into starved Europe15:44
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RST38hDirectional keys, working transmitter, etc =)15:44
Myrttiit's legal in finland atleast15:44
javispedrowhat what?15:44
fralscool Myrtti, guess ill have to take the boat over to helsinki and grab one if mine is hw disabled15:45
RST38hjavis: BTW, I managed to start it in 400x210 mode from command line15:45
RST38hjavis: You are right, the start menu cannot be clicked =(15:45
javispedroyeah, i was planning to just increase the height of that button up to ridiculous values15:46
woglindeits not illegal here15:47
RST38hjavis: No way to relayout the window?15:47
javispedroI don't expect this solution to be flawless until a long, long time15:47
RST38hjavis: just make it fill the whole screen15:47
javispedroRST38h: and reposition all the widgets.15:47
RST38hthere will be the total of 3 dialogs15:48
RST38hMain, Options, Startup15:48
RST38h(maybe the Advanced Opts dialog as well)15:48
javispedrothere's a hundred of them.15:48
RST38hothers are small and harmless15:48
RST38hand if they appear in the game, they can be moved around15:48
javispedronews options dialog,15:48
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KhertanHello everybody !15:50
woglindehi khertan15:50
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woglindeah finde is back again15:50
doffmwoglinde: Thanks for the pointer. Found the e-mail and the D-Bus interface.15:51
Khertanhum ... seems to be times to port my applet to fremantle15:51
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woglindedoffm .)15:51
fralshmm, need to see if nokia has disabled the fm transmitters on the swedish versions of the other nseries with one15:51
woglindeKhertan hm yo15:51
Khertansomeone with an n900 can say me if there is some informations about of network cellular data transfered in /proc ?15:52
Stskeepsmaybe in net interfaces15:52
Khertanbut without a device i can't see :)15:53
woglindeKhertan what an applett you have?15:53
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woglindejo qewerty15:54
qwerty12Hiya, woglinde15:54
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fralsno indications theyve hw blocked the previous models in sweden \o/15:55
Khertanapplet ?15:55
Khertani have ?15:55
Khertannone yet ...15:55
Khertani ll you port hometools for the moments15:55
Khertanand homeip15:55
Khertanas many ask it :)15:55
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zuiihi guys16:02
Khertanok ... nice backup softwares16:04
Khertani ve lost my sources16:04
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zuiiI want to write some chinese wiki on,could i do this?16:04
woglindehow can you list it with git?16:04
Khertani didn't use git16:05
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Khertannor svn16:05
woglindeyour fault16:05
Khertantoo complex to use while in the train without any connection16:05
woglindegit is the best for it16:05
woglindegit only works local16:05
woglindeuntil you push it to a public repos16:06
woglindecd foo16:06
woglindegit init16:06
woglindeoff you go16:06
Khertanmaybe i should take a look at git16:06
Khertani didn't know it16:06
Khertanavailable on diablo ?16:06
keesjhg is easyer for personal stuff16:06
woglindeyeah thats why I am telling you16:06
woglindehg init or git init dont matters16:07
woglindeone is python other perl and c16:07
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* lcuk2 hits khertan on the head with a backup tape. ALWAYS. BACK. UP. EVERYTHING.16:08
Khertanlcuk2: the destruction was made by the backup softwares16:08
lcuk2Khertan, yes, git is available in diablo16:08
Khertanso perfect16:08
lcuk2but it does not had https support16:08
Khertannot a problem16:08
lcuk2you can use it happily with source code repositories like github16:08
Khertanmy fai too16:08
lcuk2(i do all the time from device)16:08
Khertanoh great16:09
keesjOMG I didn't know hg was python16:09
lcuk2yeah :)16:09
Khertanoh ! if hg was python i ll take a look at hg !16:09
lcuk2i think its in extras16:09
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Khertanhum where does i can select hildon home plugin to be displayed in the fremantle sdk ?16:18
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Khertanhum .... this sdk is clearly not for python developpers !16:22
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RST38h(the translation of the term is apparently incorrect, but the statistics surprise)16:24
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Khertana leaked photo of the n920 ! ->>>
Khertanok it s a nec n920 ... not a Nokia NSerie 92016:29
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keesjn920 is not top search query on google , what is happening guys :p16:31
keesjtwitter down, slashdot slashdoted16:31
Khertan5 try to download the vmware image of the fremantle sdk failed !16:32
keesjthat's the butterfly effect16:32
Khertanand download can't be resume ... due to stupid acceptation of the agrements16:32
Khertansomeone have it can push a torrent ?16:33
keesj Nokia N920 Concept ? How Nokia should approach a QWERTY keyboard? nice pic, round bordered lcd16:34
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asj_wrk-I don't see why people want space in the middle so much16:35
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Khertanlook like a car glass mirror16:35
Khertanspace in the middle of what ?16:36
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Khertanah space key :)16:36
Khertansorry :)16:36
asj_wrk-the keyboard, instead of offset to one side or another16:36
Khertandon t know16:36
glasspossibility of hitting it with either hand16:36
Khertanmaybe to be available for the two hands16:36
asj_wrk-glass: but normally it's so small it's a strech for either hand16:37
Khertanwhich is something that i think is useless but i just see that i use it on my computer keyboard with the two hands16:37
glassnormally as in where? mobiles? workstations?16:37
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glassi used to have a keyboard that was broken so that you had to hit exactly in the middle of the space bar. sucked.16:38
Khertananyway the keyb sucks in the png ... no ctrl keys !16:38
Khertanon of the most important one !16:38
glassdunno whats nokia about the concept either since it's just some guy16:38
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glassi want an omap3 device shaped/buttoned like this  fuck qwerty, i want to play!16:39
woglindeglass pandora?16:40
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glasswoglinde: are they shipping? and yeah, add a phone to it too16:40
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woglindephone is overrated16:40
keesjglass: buttons!16:40
woglindehm seems no shipping16:41
glasswoglinde: basically i'd be happy with 5800 if it had a dpad + couple of buttons16:41
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woglindehm case is missing16:42
woglindeall other components seems to be ready16:43
keesjglass: wanna help me design the push_nbutton?16:43
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woglindere javis16:44
glasskeesj: what is push_nbutton ?16:44
glasskeesj: i need sketching ideas anyhow16:44
keesja push n900 project to add buttons to the n900
keesjI am really bad artist so sketching would be great16:45
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glasskeesj: yeh it looks like something worthwhile to pursue16:46
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lcuk2glass mm sketching ideas?16:46
keesjpupnik_ already gave some valuable feedback16:46
lcuk2keesj, the push button  name is even good!16:47
lcuk2what games are folks going to do with it in the stores tho16:47
lcuk2to make it useful16:47
glasslcuk2: i'm trying to hone my skills as modeller, but need ideas to draw16:48
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lcuk2what do you like modelling in?16:49
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lcuk2apart from pencil16:49
glasslcuk2: moray, then model in povray(using a megapov binary at the moment)16:49
glasslcuk2: and well. i don't really use a pencil that much16:50
lcuk2have you considered how you could do it on the nokia devices - draw your nice models whilst sat on the bus etc16:50
glasslcuk2: a bit, but a keyboard and a mouse with buttons are essential to the workflow, to rotate around the stuff and so forth16:51
keesjthat is what I do most lcuk's note taking progam16:52
lcuk2thats only because the software is designed as such - and dont get me wrong, desktop sw is very well suited16:52
glasslcuk2: i prefer to stick to the non-polygon primitives too.. scales to high resolution prettier16:52
lcuk2"non-polygon primatives" hmm?16:53
lcuk2everything is made up from polygons16:53
glasslcuk2: i mean, no triangle shit.16:53
lcuk2so flowing curves and natural lines16:53
glasslcuk2: not in raytracer like povray.. a sphere is a sphere16:53
lardman~lart DCOM16:53
* infobot beats DCOM severely about the head and shoulders with a rubber chicken16:53
keesjI tired blender and wing3d this week-end but I really suck at it16:53
* javispedro was just looking to a dialog "Ok to install DCOM98?"16:54
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keesjLeoCAD is simple enough for me16:54
glasssomehow i never got into blender16:54
lardmanjavispedro: have fun ;)16:54
lcuk2first ever app i wrote was in dcom16:54
lardmanjavispedro: are we talking the same M$ wonderfulness?16:54
lcuk2network monitor - installed on 2000 machines16:54
javispedrolardman: guess not, i'm playing with crossover16:54
javispedro(aka wine)16:54
inzkeesj, leocad is tha bestest =)16:54
lardmanlcuk2: trying to get MATLAB to access an NT machine and open some sw using DCOM, can start the app, but can't access any methods16:55
lcuk2then we found out dcom was shat and didnt scale like it was meant to and didnt release objects properly so i rewrite the transport layer into standard winsock ;)16:55
lardmanyeah, looks like I'll have to write a server and use tcpip to communicate16:55
lcuk2lardman, is the binary compiled correctly as activex exe and has all the registration sorted and permissions set16:55
lardmanis commercial sw16:56
lcuk2my problem was instentiate, do job, shutdown.   and it never shutdown cleanly16:56
lcuk2there were numerous pitfalls - lardman, you are right - simplify16:56
lardmanmine shuts down ok, bloody thing works on XP, just not on NT16:56
* lcuk2 nods16:56
lcuk2i feel your pain16:57
lcuk2the domain settings will be mucking with it16:57
lardmannah, been through all that, otherwise it can't even start the remote server16:57
lardmanand that's also very fun on NT, dcomcnfg, etc16:57
* lcuk2 cowers16:58
lardmanand reboot after each change to check if it's worked, wonderful!16:58
lcuk2i had not thought about such things for nearly 10 years - ive got cold sweats remembering16:59
javispedrosounds like fun16:59
lardmanthe silly thing is, I'll use a local app as my server (and have to pass everything across myself) and it will all work fine, stupid NT17:00
qwerty12lardman: question: why are you using NT? :)17:00
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lardmanir camera control pc, old sw, old drivers, etc17:01
Khertan(15:32:20) Khertan: 5 try to download the vmware image of the fremantle sdk failed !17:01
Khertan(15:32:44) Khertan: and download can't be resume ... due to stupid acceptation of the agrements17:01
Khertan(15:33:48) Khertan: someone have it can push a torrent ?17:01
Khertan6 now17:01
lcuk2lardman, in the old engineering block the it guys would shudder at the thought of servicing one of the win 3.11  machines17:02
* RST38h prays to the Tentacled One to make the guy who came up with x86 segments hiccup every time somebody curses them17:02
lcuk2and to this day i bet that machine is in use17:02
qwerty12RST38h: I have heard you.17:03
lardmanlcuk2: yeah, we have some dos machines I'm trying to phase out by rewriting the sw to run on something modern17:03
lcuk2computers are tools17:03
jrochalizardo, hello17:03
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javispedroRST38h: I know some OS designers who like segments ;)17:03
lizardojrocha: hi17:03
jrochalizardo, it's me, your favorite complainer :D17:03
jrochalizardo, I've noticed that I cannot set an input mode on an Entry17:04
jrochais this a known issue?17:04
lizardojrocha: can you provide an example snippet (pastebin) ?17:04
lizardojrocha: I really don't know much of Hildon, so I need actual code to check against the binding sources :)17:05
jrochalizardo, I don't have a standalone example but it's really easy17:05
jrochacheck this:
lizardojrocha: but certainly it is not known, we don't have any known issues, just the many yet to be discovered ones :)17:06
* lardman reaches for MSDN to work out how to create his own out-of-process activex exe17:06
lardmanand curses M$ while he's at it17:06
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jrochalizardo, I would expect to do: entry = hildon.Entry ...... ; entry.set_input_mode(X)17:07
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lizardojrocha: and, the "nice"  hildon_gtk_* functions... they are the nightmare of any binding author17:07
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infobotlizardo meant: jrocha: ah, the "nice"  hildon_gtk_* functions... they are the nightmare of any binding author17:07
jrochalizardo, I can only imagine :D17:07
lizardoWTF hehe17:07
lizardojrocha: they are like patches to GTK IMHO, but without actually changing GTK :/17:08
lizardojrocha: and, strangely enough, this one is on **GTK** and not on hildon like the other hildon_gtk_* I worked with17:09
lizardoso we would have actually touch the pygtk sources to add support for it17:09
jrochasounds like fun17:09
lizardojrocha: care to open a bug about it ?17:10
* RST38h feels like TI is taunting him:
Khertan<<<< does there is a direct download link ?17:10
jrochalizardo, I'll do it17:10
lizardojrocha: so we will provide support for it on the next pygtk revamp17:10
RST38hScrewing with my brain, ain't they?17:10
Khertansomething that could be use to resume it in case of fail !?17:10
RST38hSending subliminal messages!17:10
jrochalizardo, could you tell me your components?17:10
lizardojrocha: we don't have any components17:11
lizardojrocha: just drop it there in this product and put a nice summary that we can easily associate with Hildon+Gtk :)17:12
lizardojrocha: we decided to not use components because they might be very "dynamic" in PyMaemo, as we host many packages17:12
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jrochalizardo, I think the input modes are really important17:15
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jrochasince, for example, there are no spinbuttons on hildon, people can assign a NUMERIC mode to an entry in order to make it only select numbers17:16
lizardojrocha: ok, so be sure to set that on the bug (priority field)17:16
jrochait's high!17:16
lizardojrocha: we have plans to work on pygtk on the next weeks , so I'll add this feature to that too :)17:17
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Khertanseems that gtksourceview2 make python segfault17:17
lizardojrocha: tks17:18
Khertanbut does this only happen on fremantle sdk ?17:18
Khertansomeone have try pygtkeditor on a n900 ?17:18
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Macerthe seamstress looks pretty funny17:28
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Macerwow house sucked17:29
Macerit was like a bad hack of one flew over the cookoo's nest17:30
fralshouse is awesome!17:30
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Maceri didn't say the show sucked. i meant the episode with him in the nuthouse17:30
Macerit was kind of a shitty episode17:31
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fralsi found it decent, was a pretty good season opener... on the other hand i havnt seen one flew over the cuckoo's nest ;o17:33
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* lardman grumbles at porting Python code to C code18:34
ccookelardman: that can be unpleasant :-/18:38
lardmanI'm sure it won;t be too bad, html grabbing and parsing, just a pain to have to write it from a lower level18:40
lcuk2libraries and functions18:41
lcuk2high level api18:42
lardmanyeah, just have to find some18:42
lcuk2write a google parser in c18:42
lcuk2and try to use it to find a html parser18:42
lardmanlibcurl + libxml I gues18:44
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* ccooke sits in Euston station wondering what to do for the next two hours18:45
qwerty12Chat on #maemo? =)18:46
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ccookeqwerty12: well, it's a definite *option* :-)18:46
lardman2hrs? going off-peak?18:46
ccookeif I can find a comfortable chair, I may even do some coding :-)18:46
ccookelardman: yeah. I usually book in advance, but it's been a busy week18:47
lardmanin which case s/chair/pub18:47
ccookemaybe in a bit18:48
lardmansame here18:48
ccookelardman: Euston or somewhere else? :-)18:48
lardmansomewhere else - am in Bath18:49
lardmannot the bath either18:49
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ccookeof course, the real question is: Will my laptop battery *last* two hours?18:50
lardmanI was very impressed with my wife's Samsung N110, battery lasts for ever18:50
lardmanwonder if I could install Linux on it without her noticing, and bring it to the summit....18:51
ccookemy laptops are monstrosities :-)18:51
lardmanI've got an old one that reduces my gas bill18:51
lardmanneed asbestos trousers to use it mind you18:52
ccookeI've spent enough time contracting that the idea of not having a good laptop I can provide for a future contract worries me18:52
ccooke(even though I'm happily in a perm job now)18:52
ccookeand I've had to do a lot of high-end stuff for work - mucking about with performance testing different hypervisors. Oh, and I'm huge - the only laptops I can use comfortably are 17"18:53
ccookeAdd that together and you get monstrous desktop replacements with tons of power and hardly any battery life18:53
lardmanI only use a laptop to tweak presentations and check email18:53
SpeedEvilccooke: car battery + inverter18:53
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ccookeSpeedEvil: I would liek to introduce you to the concept of "Portable" :-)18:54
lardmanSpeedEvil: I had a PC running in the back of a car doing that18:54
lardmanSpeedEvil: not good when switching the car on/off though18:54
* ccooke can happily carry a 17" beast on my back - the advantage of being huge is that what you can carry comfortably scales, too :-)18:54
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florianhi dneary18:59
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* lardman wonders why few people seem to try parsing Amazon with C18:59
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lcuk2lots of people parse amazon using c19:02
lardmanprobably the same reason people don't usually beat themselves with spiky sticks19:02
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lcuk2internet explorer, firefox, etc all have parsers wrote in c19:03
javispedro(or c++)19:03
lcuk2arent there libraries for accessing the DOM19:04
lcuk2libwww springs to mind, but im not sure whether im right19:04
lardmanyeah, but you need a username, so not sure it's great for an application19:04
dnearyhi florian19:04
lardmanlibtidy is another19:04
lcuk2mmm "need a username"  you mean cookie management for actual downloading?19:05
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lcuk2thats different and part of ummmmm whatever that library is19:05
lardmanAmazon web services?19:05
* lcuk2 hates his memory19:05
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lardmannot to worry, back to ActiveX for me :(19:06
lardmanyeah libcurl looks good for the downloading19:07
lcuk2libcurl - its what c apps use for downloading and it can access things with cookies and set params and stuff19:07
lcuk2then you pass the downloaded file to  one of the DOM modellers and read off from there19:08
lardmanwhat's a dom modeller?19:08
lardmanor rather what lib provides one?19:08
lcuk2im sure libwww does it19:09
lcuk2something to take a html file and give a DOM tree19:09
lardmanyeah ok, so it parses the data and then you can get bits back19:10
lardmanthat's what I was calling a parser19:10
lcuk2my head is completely gone this afternoon tho19:10
lcuk2if its sml, that should be easier19:11
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fralsanyone here with a n900 that could answer on how often you accidently answer a call with the phone in pocket/while taking it up from your pocket?19:13
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lcuk2if im taking it out of my pocket to answer a call, what does it matter19:13
lcuk2its a problem if it answers without you knowing19:13
lcuk2but thats never happened19:14
lardmanI wonder if the proximity sensor keeps the screen locked....19:14
fralswell if you pull it out to check whos calling, might be someone you wanna ignore or smth like that19:14
lcuk2i dunno - my biggest gripe is volume of the ringer19:14
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lcuk2i need a loud one to hear it19:14
lcuk2i turned off vibrate19:14
* lcuk2 should turn it back on19:15
ccookelcuk2: I'd have thought the speakers would be loud enough?19:15
lcuk2ccooke, im half deaf as well as got no memory ;)19:15
fralsi got yelled at for having my n95 on the loudest volume :(19:15
lcuk2it also helps to have a recognisable ringtone19:17
lcuk2on my  old phone i had the same one for about 18 months19:17
lcuk2now this keeps runing and i hear it and wonder if they are ever gonna answer it19:17
lcuk2actually, it was the knight rider theme :D19:18
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lcuk2and text messages were "close encounters" notes19:18
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metRo_hy, i'm trying to downalod the maemo-sdk-0.6.torrent at
metRo_i'm usign utorrent19:19
metRo_but it's didn't start yet19:19
woglindehm sdk-0.6? isnt that old?19:19
metRo_i don't know19:20
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metRo_i'm starting at maemo to try to learn something before submit my idea to nokia n900 push19:21
metRo_i have some electronics skills19:21
*** javispedro changes topic to "something else"19:21
metRo_about programing just c/c++ at window19:21
woglindesomeone forgot to save the topic setting19:21
qwerty12#maemo - the channel for pedos19:21
javispedrodoes anyone have the original topic?19:21
*** woglinde changes topic to "Topic for #maemo: Welcome to #maemo | N900 and Maemo 5 announced @ | | Maemo Community Council | | | Maemo Community council election -> | Maemo 5 will not be available for 770/n8x0, use Mer instead"19:22
woglindepraise irsse19:22
woglindeaerh irssi19:22
woglindewhats the channel flag19:22
metRo_so, do you know any image with ubuntu and maemo sdk and tools to start programing?19:22
metRo_Or anyone want to give part of my team19:23
woglindemetro oh it was the vmware image?19:23
woglindemetro personal I use sdk+19:23
Corsacwoglinde: irssi can rescussite the topic?19:23
woglindecorsac I can scroll above19:23
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lbtanyone heard of Moblin?19:23
woglindelbt yes19:23
Corsacha, and you have topicdiff? :)19:23
woglindesince over a year19:23
lbtapparently they have a dev area called "The Moblin GARAGE"19:24
Corsactopicdiff just rocks19:24
woglindelbt why not?19:24
woglindebut they died for me after switching to rpm19:24
javispedrolbt: actually, it was discussed here yesterday iirc19:24
lardmanhow could Cut-R change the topic?19:24
woglindemetro trie
lbtjavispedro: eek ,..... old news then19:25
woglindelardman everyone can19:25
woglindethe channel is not protected19:25
woglindeagainst it19:25
lardmanreally, that's bad form19:25
javispedrolbt: well, discussed in the night shift :)19:25
lardmanI never realised19:25
lbtah the creepy ones19:25
metRo_i can install it at windows?19:25
woglindemetro hm no19:25
javispedro it seems more like an app store to me19:26
woglindemetro would be intressting if it would work on colinux19:26
lbtjust reading Moblin 2 point zero
metRo_something like wubi it's sufficiente?19:26
javispedrometRo_: for windows you'll need vmware, colinux, or something like that.19:26
javispedrowubi should work doesn't it? it's pure ubuntu after all?19:27
woglindehm qemu dont works under cygwin?19:27
woglindeI never tried19:27
javispedrowoglinde: qemu works under mingw too. but what for?19:27
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woglindejavis? for installing sdk+19:28
metRo_so, if i use colinux i need an ubunut image with maemo sdk19:28
javispedroporting sb2 to windows.19:28
metRo_to load on it19:28
woglindejavis nah19:28
metRo_or i just can load an ubuntu image19:28
metRo_and after install maeomo sdk19:28
woglindemetro second one19:28
metRo_ok, thanks19:28
woglindeI bet there is no colinux-image with sdk19:28
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woglindebut installing is not that hard19:28
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metRo_i have to download the ubuntu image at ?19:30
metRo_just 40 megas?19:30
woglindeits compressed19:31
woglindeI think its 5 gb or so19:31
javispedroand probably minimal, without GUI19:31
woglindein real19:31
javispedro40 MiB -> 5 GiB ratio ???19:31
javispedroah, of a sparse file.19:31
woglindebut let me see19:31
metRo_that doesn't have a GUI?19:31
woglindeits in the filename19:31
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metRo_it's true19:32
javispedrobecause it's a sparsefile19:32
metRo_can i make some questions just about if its possible to do in nokina n900?19:33
woglindejust ask19:33
metRo_if i'm browsing and select a word with the mouse open a menu, it's possible to add a button to that menu?19:34
metRo_per exempla19:34
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metRo_i select "ball" and have an optin open it with aplication xpto19:35
metRo_the pointer19:35
woglindethe n900 has a mouse?19:35
metRo_that you can use in the browser19:35
metRo_to select19:35
javispedrobut that's only in the browser.19:35
metRo_i know19:35
metRo_but it's possible?19:35
VDVsxjavispedro, xterm has it to19:36
javispedroVDVsx: a, good one :)19:36
lbtdoes anyone understand __force in gcc ?19:36
woglindelbt no19:36
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lbtsorry, wrong chan19:37
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metRo_"<woglinde> lbt no" it's for me?19:41
woglindeit was for lbt19:42
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javispedro(as for myself, I don't know the answer)19:42
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metRo_do you programer to maemo using python or c/c++?19:44
woglindeqt so c++19:45
metRo_why i have to choise one or another?19:45
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woglindechoice depends on many factors19:45
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lardmanwoglinde: there are Python-qt bindings aren;t there?19:46
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woglindelardman yes but dont know if they work well on maemo19:47
lardmanfair enough19:47
woglindenokia brazil startet in owns python-qt bindings19:47
metRo_i will want to use to bluethoot19:47
woglindehm oh19:49
metRo_and i will want to connect the aplication to google maps apis per exemple. I will send a word(country) to google maps api to know the coordinates19:49
woglindewrong link19:49
metRo_Alguem fala portugues?19:49
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woglindeoh was the right link19:50
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Macermy fucking server died on me again19:52
Maceri'm starting to think the ram is overheating19:52
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Macerthe dimms are very hot19:52
woglindemacer haha19:52
Maceri'm going to have to get some new cpu fans and thermal compound19:53
woglindebyeone with headpipes19:53
Macerand see about getting some dimm heatsinks19:53
woglindeas I accendently did19:53
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woglindenow I dont can use dual channel ram19:53
woglindebecause of the heatpipes19:53
Maceri have 8 dimms in it19:53
Macerso all the slots are full19:53
Macerthey are ecc19:53
Macersocket 940 board19:54
woglindeecc is not cheap19:54
Maceryeah i know19:54
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Maceri can't seem to get any type of log when it freezes either19:54
* lcuk2 glares @ qwerty12 for getting there first as usual :P19:54
Macerso i have no idea what is the actual cause19:54
woglindewhen the hell kvm project will official release the para disk driver for windows19:54
Macerit seems like a heat problemw ith either the cpus or the dimms19:54
qwerty12lcuk2: I'm in the South. I'll always be faster than you19:55
* Macer watercools the entire system19:55
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lcuk2yeah - you moved like lightening when crashanddie_ went to shake your hand19:55
woglindehm on nov 6/7/8 I will be in cambridge19:55
Maceri should find some sort of nonconductivec plasma to pour all over it19:55
Maceror to submerge it in19:55
Maceri wonder if anybody has ever tried something like that19:55
lcuk2just use regular water19:55
lcuk2it will be ok19:55
Macersome distilled water? :)19:55
lcuk2theres tonnes of docs about full emersion cooling19:56
Macerit would still be nice to find a nonconductive liquid to cool it in19:56
Macerare there?19:56
Maceri've never seen a system modded in such a way19:56
Macerthat would be awesome19:56
javispedroMacer: there a few youtube videos about a oil emersion cooling iirc19:57
Macerhow well did it work?19:57
lcuk2many many more19:58
metRo_ok, i already have the ubuntu from
lcuk2google is your guide19:58
metRo_and now?19:58
metRo_i have that?19:58
woglindeyou need to install colinux19:59
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woglindeand follow the beginnersguide to setup it right19:59
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javispedroeldar is truly a bit crazy20:03
javispedrohe should stop trusting his "method" to identify nokia employees20:03
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Macerthat computer is awesome20:03
Macerthe one submerged in the oil by hardcore computers20:04
VDVsxjavispedro, are you also a nokian now ?  heheh20:04
metRo_i'm complet lost trying to use the colinux20:04
metRo_vmware it's free?20:04
aSIMULAterheh i was just reading that eldar review thread20:04
metRo_or virtual box?20:04
Macervirtualbox is20:04
* lbt glances at his Cray-1 submersible board20:04
Macerlbt: heh20:04
Macerdoes it matter if a board is "submersible" or not?20:05
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Maceri mean wouldn't it really be a matter of the liquid used?20:05
woglindemetRo_ whats the problem with colinux?20:05
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woglindemetro too hard to follow a beginners guide?20:05
Maceras long as it is non-conductive the type of motherboard shouldn't matter should it?20:05
javispedroVDVsx: not yet. but I just saw a twitter comment about DrNokSnes being a "builtin game" :P20:05
lbtthe board is solid copper - different heat flow to air cooling20:05
Macerlbt: oh20:05
metRo_i cant find the begginers guide :S20:05
Macerlbt: i see.. interesting. i'm sure a standard mboard would be a lot better off submerged too :)20:06
VDVsxjavispedro, so you are a contractor, hihihi20:06
liriis there a known issue with the n810 where the power suply/battery are concerened?20:06
Macerthat thing is frigging awesome tho20:06
Maceri still would like to know why my computer is dying on me though20:06
metRo_it's just beacause i cant find an exe20:06
javispedro"Over the next few days we managed to identify around 144 Nokia employees including those who worked on Maemo and had personal accounts on Twitter."20:06
Maceri think it is because i started pushing it by running 4 vboxes on it at once20:06
Macerand it's starting to produce more heat from the cpus20:07
javispedropoor wazd.20:07
Macermaybe a swap of cpu fans and thermal compound will help20:07
javispedroI wonder if he though his name "sounded finnish".20:07
woglindemetro ->
lirimy battery has drained out. I connected the power supply to the power socket and then to the n810 though nothing happens (it isn't charging)20:07
Maceri'll get some retarded super oversized cpu fans and see if that helps20:07
VDVsxjavispedro, url please20:07
Macermaybe a new case too20:07
metRo_colinux is better than Virtual Box?20:07
woglindejavis *5*20:07
Macersomething retardedly oversized20:07
Macerto fit some 30cm fans on the cpus or something20:07
woglindeits time for dinner20:08
woglindeI think20:08
woglindetill later20:08
VDVsxjavispedro, bahh, no names, no fun :(20:09
javispedroI wonder if he realizes there's also a public Maemo bugzilla. To get "what will happen in the world of Maemo in the next 1.5 years".20:10
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SpeedEvilI think the implication is that everyone with a nokia IP that's interested must be a part of the team20:12
SpeedEvilWhich is kinda silly20:13
glass"In some cases I simply spent several hours in a friendly company drinking tea" he should've been drinking late night with them to get info20:13
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VDVsxhey wazd <- one of the 144 Nokia employees that Elder identified, hhiihih20:15
javispedrowazd: yes, I hope you're enjoying your job at Nokia :)20:16
wazdVDVsx: orly? :D20:16
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wazdjavispedro: wish I had a real chance...20:16
glassand besides, i really doubt anyone inside even nokia has a full idea what maemo is going to be in 1.5 years since the work to get maemo there hasn't been done yet. they might know where they personally hope it will be at20:17
VDVsxwazd, btw, I need some of your wisdom later :)20:17
javispedroglass: even then, 1.5 years is a short timeframe20:18
javispedrothat's why I was suggesting bugzilla.20:18
wazdVDVsx: oh, I read that one in russian20:18
glassjavispedro: yeah, but say, with getting n900 to market, i'd wager that a lot was to do with getting fabbing right(plenty of omap3 products seemed to be 'late')20:18
GeneralAntillesOS X on the Mini 9 is disturbingly better.20:19
wazdVDVsx: oh my god, he traced Quim Gil! We have been working on his fake identity for 20 years!20:19
javispedrooh my god!!20:19
javispedronow samsung will hire him.20:19
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glassthe essay is pretty much "look i got some information!"...  i could've pointed him to a bar or two that he'd have gotten more info by just sitting there every night20:21
RST38hwazd: eldar getting lyrical ?20:22
javispedroglass: or certain plance in Amsterdam.20:22
glassbut that info could've been of grade a balony20:22
glassbecause thats how things roll20:22
wazdRST38h: he always was in fact)20:22
glassmaemo isn't a mainstream nokia os despite some people telling me (that it would be at this point in time) couple of years ago20:23
javispedroare there still Sega headsharks at the main entrace of Nintendo HQ?20:23
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javispedrothis seems so 90ish20:24
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glassnokias big secret is just selling phones with a markup20:24
glassmoto and sony-e kinda missed that thing20:24
wazdmoto aura worth whole moto line20:25
RST38hmoto was long racing to the bottom20:25
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wazdit's just beautiful, so beautiful20:25
glassRST38h: it was going to bottom while the economy was in upturn20:25
javispedrohey samsung! I work for Nokia! please offer me "salaries 4-5 times bigger than that of the president"!!20:25
RST38hglass: their non-consumer equipment is cool though20:26
javispedroluke-jr: scrollback ;)20:26
wazdLooks like this channel contains of nokia employees, intel employees and me :D20:26
glassRST38h: yeah the enterprise/industry stuff isn't so bad20:27
metRo_i have colinux works20:27
glassRST38h: they're making money there though20:27
SpeedEvilwazd: you work for both?20:27
javispedro(and joking of course)20:27
metRo_where i put the Ubuntu-9.04.ext3.1gb.fs?20:27
wazdSpeedEvil: I work for food :D20:27
javispedrometRo_: wogline is gone and I don't know the first thing about colinux20:28
RST38hDoes food pay well? =)20:28
glassi wonder if that essays writer thought of that companies get nokia roadmaps by just asking20:28
* SpeedEvil throws wazd a bannanna. 20:28
* Myrtti votes for cheesecake20:29
glasswhitechocolatecheesecake ftw20:29
wazdMyrtti: I heard you want hello kitty theme?)20:29
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glassso anyways, could someone point me to a photo essay of n900, preferably with a ruler next to it?20:30
Myrttiwazd: anything subtle and with a hint of pink is appreciated, not necessarily all pink or all hellokitty20:30
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metRo_i'll try virtual box20:31
Myrttimy xubuntu is quite pink, but it's not too tacky to my eyes, and I prefer to keep stuff nice without being too obtrusive20:31
SpeedEvilglass: would the president of brazil do?20:31
Myrttislopping pink everywhere is just tacky20:31
glassSpeedEvil: hmm. no.20:32
glassbrazil is kinda sketchy country20:32
glass"i've seen videos"20:32
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RST38hwazd: So, he deviously gets Maemo's organizational chart. And what use is it to him?20:37
javispedroRST38h: his master plan is to send that to samsung so that samsung may hire "key maemo" people.20:38
javispedro2. ???20:38
javispedro3. profit.20:38
wazdtoday my neighbour from London leaves Moscow after 6months of work :( sad :(20:38
RST38hHmmm...But according to his logic Samsung will not hire him =)20:38
RST38hwazd: Lemme guess, business visa? =)20:38
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RST38hjavis: Besides, he does not look Korean!20:38
wazdRST38h: maybe, haven't got much details :)20:39
javispedroRST38h: well, who knows.20:42
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lcuk2glass, mmm why do you need ruler20:44
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* lcuk2 plays portal20:46
SpeedEvilglass: simply scale off the published dimesions20:48
SpeedEvilAnd shop in a ruler if you need one.20:48
SpeedEvilOr for more comedic purposes, an elephant.20:48
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Stskeepswazd, so how well are nokia employees like yourself paid? ;)20:57
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wazdStskeeps: some potatoes, bread, butter :D20:58
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RST38hrather, his bacon is safe as long as he complies! =)20:59
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asj_wrk-maybe it's butter wrapped in bacon in a potatoe?21:07
X-FadeNah, he gets paid in salmiakki of course ;)21:08
Myrttifriday bottle21:09
X-FadeMyrtti: Is that the salmiakki liquor?21:09
Myrttior salmiakki diluted in vodka21:10
Proteoussingle malt plz21:10
Proteouswith some water21:10
* lcuk2 still has box of finnish cigars - 1. lets hope hes not paid in them lol21:10
asj_wrk- -- Why am I moving to Australia? this suddenly seems like a bad idea21:11
Myrttiasj_wrk-: WELCOME TO FINLAND21:12
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asj_wrk-Myrtti: hmm?21:12
Myrttiwe love you long tiem21:12
Myrttidon't need to be afraid of dust storms here :-P21:13
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asj_wrk-Myrtti: I used to live in Canada, no dust storms there either, but -40 gets tirring21:14
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toggles_wasj_wrk-: when you get down there can you please clean my apartment?21:15
asj_wrk-toggles_w: only if I get to move in...I don't have a place to stay you see ;)21:16
RST38hlicorice is ammonium chloride?21:17
* RST38h now understands why he didn't like it so much21:17
RST38hIt is freaking DRIED PISS!21:17
Myrttione of the five members of the candy family in Finland21:18
RST38hMyrtti: I liked your gel candy much better =)21:18
Myrttisalmiakki, chocolate, fruit candy, (xylitol) cough drops and (xylitol) chewing gum21:18
Myrttigel candy? hmmmm21:19
toggles_wasj_wrk-: hmm.. will be a problem, i'll ask my tenant if he minds..21:19
RST38hthe fruit gels were delicious21:19
Myrttiheh, yeah21:19
asj_wrk-toggles_w: ah well, probably in the wrong city anyways21:19
asj_wrk-toggles_w: commute from perth to brisbane would umm not be so great eh?21:20
SpeedEvilDepends if you've got a flying car.21:21
toggles_wor like fflyer miles..21:21
asj_wrk-SpeedEvil: it's still 5000km...21:21
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asj_wrk-(and I do own a plane...even at 300km/hr it's still 5000km)21:21
SpeedEvilYou clearly need a hypersonic flying car. :)21:22
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RST38hApple is developing iTablet since 1987:
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asj_wrk-gizmodo are such apple fan boys ;)21:41
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RST38hthey like shiney!21:42
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wirelessdreamerwikipedia mentioned usa release date may be the 27th of september, anyone here  able to confirm that?21:53
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mauhi there, some one know a maemo SDK  installation manual for openSUSE?21:55
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lbtmau: not afaik21:56
lbtsetting up a debian/ubuntu VM is probably easiest21:57
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mauHo! ok , Tanks21:59
jaem_N810good morning21:59
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lcuk2servo control22:03
pupnik_lol @ leocad - ni ce22:03
Myrttimmm chicken.22:03
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lbtservos... yes22:03
lcuk2i can wire up the remote control car i gather with one of those boards - or equally arduino22:04
* lcuk2 ponders location sensing22:04
lbtthey have 2 DACS and I use one to control the throttle22:04
lbtit's 3-channel though22:05
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lbtI haven't played much more with it since the other day22:05
lcuk2its then just about control and feedback22:05
lcuk2yeah i know22:05
lcuk2or rather you shut up about it lol22:05
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lcuk2you put a fan on, was that just a proto for the other kind of fan you would use22:06
lbtheh, just playing with varying 'voltage' using PWM22:06
lcuk2i might have a browse over maplin this weekend22:07
lbtif the N900 had usb I'd do more22:07
lcuk2see what i could gather for sensing22:07
lcuk2yeah understood, but theres more than one way to deal with that22:07
lbtthe board is great for that kind of thing22:07
lcuk2doesnt even need usb technically22:07
lcuk2can be done from the audio out if reqd22:07
lbtimagination required22:07
* lcuk2 really wants to look into echo lcoation22:08
lcuk2laser rangefinding is impractical at the scale required22:08
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lcuk2and i only want to find out if theres stuff infront22:09
* lcuk2 might rip apart one of those 80s robots22:09
* lbt has a mate who uses R/C planes with twin cameras on gimbals22:09
lcuk2the controllable trax things22:09
lbthe uses a headmounted HUD with head position sensors22:09
lbtto direct the cameras22:09
lbthe gets a 3D view from the plane22:10
lbtand can 'look around'22:10
lbtjust by looking around22:10
lbtthe coolest bit is the transmitterr22:10
fralsspeaking of robots... you lot seen this?
lbtwhich also tracks the plane22:10
lbtto maintain the wifi connection22:11
lcuk2no fkin wonder you put a tv in your bathroom lol22:11
lcuk2with friends like that, i'd do crazy stuff :D22:11
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lcuk2that actually sounds really impressive22:12
lcuk2animatronics puppeteer baseline control system22:12
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lcuk2biggest problem with these setups and advancing further into robotics is supllying enough power22:13
lbtnah, it's that "make clean" doesn't work on soldering22:14
jaem_N810I wish22:15
jaem_N810sigh... my soldering iron is more of a handicap than anything else22:15
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jaem_N810my uni didn't replace their tips last year, and even the broken/bent irons in the lab worked better than mine :(22:16
jaem_N810lbt: what's this for?22:16
lbtmaybe PUSH22:16
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jaem_N810I have an idea for that, but I'm waiting for legal clarification about something from Nokia, as it was originally proposed by one of my profs22:17
jaem_N810btw, :)22:19
jaem_N810lbt: what type of car is it?22:19
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lbtmore details later...22:19
jaem_N810heh, okay22:19
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pupnik_nice n810s going for 199-225 euro22:23
asj_wrk-woot had one I thought for under $200 US a month or two back22:24
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pupnik_Yeah you can see how much european govt adds to prices.22:25
asj_wrk-well woot is a deal a day/emptying inventory site22:25
pupnik_it's about 30% on average22:26
pupnik_down to 10% in some areas22:27
pupnik_a good comparison is to amazon.com22:27
asj_wrk-US seems to have unusually low consumer electronics prices, when I was in AU it's almost always cheaper to buy it in the US and ship it over, it seems22:28
ProteousI got my 770 from woot. the rest is history22:28
toggles_wProteous: lol, me too22:29
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pupnik_asj_wrk-: all those differences are due to government intervention into the marketplace.  in a free-trade situation, prices would equilibrate.22:30
* asj_wrk- scratches his head. I put 2 of my pci cards in a system everything is ok. I put 3 of them in there and all hell breaks lose. sigh, 1 maybe 2 weeks left22:31
pupnik_perhaps an issue with irq sharing?22:31
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asj_wrk-they're all sharring irqs with everything, hmmm, maybe though.  I think it's a memory leak/disaster. The driver is nasty22:32
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* ShadowJK wonders what the import tariff for consumer electronics from the US is like22:32
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RST38hShadow: ask someone to bring the device22:34
SpeedEvilShadowJK: where ar eyou?22:35
unixSnobgimme some ideas... what's the best way to have an n800 detect when you are at your office?    I'm thinking a bluetooth signal that connects to a bluetooth dongle22:35
ShadowJKBut I meant in general22:35
SpeedEvilShadowJK: 6% to the UK - + 15% vat22:35
RST38hunixSnob: Whistling!22:35
SpeedEvilShadowJK: i imagine it'd be similar in .fi22:35
unixSnobRST38h: is that an app?22:35
RST38hNo, it is a sound!22:36
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lbtVDVsx: pingy pingy ping22:37
* RST38h rejoices22:38
VDVsxneed some love ^ ;)22:38
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lardmanevening all22:38
asj_wrk-unixSnob: kde used to be able to lock/unlock the screen per a bluetooth device...that feature seems to have vanished now that I want it22:38
lbtVDVsx: I just noticed ;)22:39
lardmanasj_wrk-: I saw that on Windows a little while back22:39
asj_wrk-seemed kinda handy for my work/home machines...22:39
lardmanyeah, was just thinking about it a couple of days ago - not for home, but for work (where I have to use the dreaded Windows)22:40
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unixSnobasj_wrk-: yeah, it's a good feature.. there's no good reason to remove it22:40
lardmanis it not available as an add-on still?22:40
asj_wrk-I was thinking perhaps it was easy to spoof, but really who would care?22:40
asj_wrk-you have access to the machine, init=/bin/sh isn't that hard22:41
unixSnobasj_wrk-: perhaps, but that doesn't mean the feature is insecure22:41
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unixSnobit could be used /in addition/ to your password, so you must know something, and also have something22:42
lardmanlol, sourceforge project for Windows anyway:
unixSnobit could also setup an encrypted link using diffie-helman, and send a password22:43
asj_wrk-<shrug> I would just like to see it work by turning aff the screen saver, waking up the monitor, etc when you come in range.  Would be awesome, you walk in the office and sit down at your computer and tada :)22:43
unixSnobBut the reason I bring it up is not to login -- it's because I would like a timecard app that I don't have to clock in and out of22:44
lardmanasj_wrk-: except when you have a class 3 (or whatever it is) device and it unlocks when you come within 100m ;)22:44
lardmananyway, looks like a program called BlueProximity still exists22:44
asj_wrk-installing :)22:45
* lardman is glad he's achieved something useful this evening ;)22:45
unixSnoball timecard apps i've found so far expect you to tap on a stopwatch22:46
qwerty12_N810lardman: first time for everything22:46
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lardmanqwerty12_N810: oi!22:47
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lardmancor, the cheek of the youth of today22:47
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asj_wrk-sweet this is a cool app22:49
lardmanworks does it? Good good22:49
asj_wrk-well let me take my phone away from my desk :)22:50
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ShadowJKI wish I already didn't have such a good deal with saunalahti22:51
asj_wrk-well it lost contact to the phone...22:51
ShadowJKthey'll undoubtedly fuck it up if I try upgrade :)22:51
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pupnikCan N900 open > 800x480 windows?22:51
pupnikFor apps that need 800x600 or more?22:52
ShadowJKNokia would tell you to fix your app22:52
RST38hpupnik: not right now afaik, although there are some suggestions to implement scrollable windows22:54
pupnikSome people will want to run pc-linux apps, not just finger-friendly maemo5 apps22:54
pupnikk ty RST38h22:54
RST38hpupnik: as far as I understand the hardware, this should not be a problem technically22:55
pupnikit would be cute to pan over virtual desktop with device tilt22:55
pupnikcool beans22:55
asj_wrk-ok blueproximity works great, but if you leave the settings dialog open it doesn't work. Dialog has to be closed22:57
lardmanare there any decent dbus docs/example codes out there?22:57
lardmanor even better, something in C showing how to open a url?22:57
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pupnikkeesj: model your controller with this:
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asj_wrk-lardman: <hug> works great, uses signal strength for a "distance" so even would work with class 3 :)23:01
lardmanthanks, what about in Diablo, etc?23:01
qwerty12_N810lardman: Same thing for Diablo23:01
lardmanasj_wrk-: ah, I always wondered how that would work23:01
lardmanqwerty12_N810: good stuff, thanks23:01
qwerty12_N810"open_new_window" is nicer than "load_url" IMO23:02
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unixSnobasj_wrk-: did you notice different distances can be configured?23:03
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lardmanis that also in hildon-mime?23:03
* unixSnob wonders if blueproximity can be configured to take different actions at different distances23:03
lardmanunixSnob: seemed to be written in Python, so easily hackable23:04
asj_wrk-unixSnob: not without changing it. Now a greating would rock, as you enter the room the computer could say "good morning" and as you sit down wake up :)23:04
lardman"Hello master" or the like?23:05
qwerty12_N810lardman: hildon_mime_open_file will look up the correct app that handles whatever file you gave it; don't think it does URLs23:05
asj_wrk-imagin how that could annoy your coworkers....23:05
unixSnobi want to have the Beetlejuice voice saying "hey, wait, come back.. don't leave me here!!" as I walk away23:05
qwerty12_N810lardman: think opening a file from the file manager23:05
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asj_wrk-have it pair with one of their phones...when they get close you could say "Just what are you are doing Dave?"23:06
unixSnobyeah.. would be shits and giggles23:06
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fralsoh, the russian posted in the eldarthred on t.m.o :p23:06
fralsjust saying23:07
lardmanqwerty12_N810: yeah, the naming indicates that, but the question also specified opening an arbitrary url, so no idea23:07
unixSnobscreen saver could switch to a gun facing the colleague23:07
unixSnobor a middle finger23:07
RST38hAh, let us see if the guy is real23:07
lardmanah so libosso, open_new_window() you were talking about?23:07
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qwerty12_N810lardman: either way, calling the browser using the osso functions works; there's even a header file that  defines this stuff23:08
RST38hah, now he is really pissed off!23:08
lardmancool thanks, didn't get that far in the email thread :p23:08
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* RST38h considers buying industrial quantities of popcorn tomorrow23:13
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r2d2rogersrsalveti: can set you up with Cub Scout popcorn ;)23:18
r2d2rogersrsalveti: sorry, bad tab completion...23:19
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pupnikcool, Stefan Kost has ported jokosher "A guitarist's multi-track recording tool"
pupnikanybody see his talk at gran canaria?23:27
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pupnikA very cool dude...
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GeneralAntillesEldar's on Talk.23:39
GeneralAntillesPoor baby23:39
GeneralAntilles"Unfortunately for someone, my connection in this industry much higher than anyone here could have and I working with all companies (vendors/operators) on the market (except a few, frankly speaking)."23:40
GeneralAntilles"Look at all of my important friends!"23:40
pupnikn900 could easily handle such an app given a large virtual desktop you could 'slide' around
pupniki am starting to lock-on to this large desktop idea23:42
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pupnikomg, another awesome idea23:43
* pupnik asplodes23:43
paroneayeainteresting to see that the people are banking on porting to the palm pre rather than the n900...
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GeneralAntillesThey're probably pissed about oFono.23:46
pupnikhow is palm countering chicken-egg problems for the pre?23:46
pupnikpre software23:46
GeneralAntilles"The Palm Pre is currently our major hope — all other hardware being either too closed (yes, this includes the Nokia N900) or already outdated."23:46
GeneralAntillesBe nice to see that justified.23:46
Robot101GeneralAntilles: the n900 doesn't use OFono either23:46
GeneralAntillesSince, at its core, it's basically the same damn hardware.23:47
GeneralAntillesRobot101, right, but Palm isn't involved in oFono.23:47
kirmawhat palm pre has that's so much more open?23:47
GeneralAntillesRobot101, so it feels like a spite issue to me.23:47
kirmasomehow I assume it has pretty much all the same stuff23:47
Robot101there are Nokia folks hacking on OFono, and putting ISI stuff into it already, so its getting a lot less closed tbh23:47
paroneayeaGeneralAntilles: yeah, I asked for that justification in the blogpost23:47
Robot101we ported OFono to the G1's modem too23:47
GeneralAntillesMaybe he's thinking released is more open than unreleased. :P23:48
chxi thought ofono was gpl23:48
chxi might be wrong.23:48
paroneayeakind of interesting since it looks like the n900's stack also used d-bus, right?23:48
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kirmaI know couple openmoko users, but somehow I do rate them, and even independent of the actual hardware they would be using, quite a fringe community in contrast to maemo23:49
pupniki wonder what kind of surgery you need on thumb to type on palm pre23:50
paroneayeakirma: I had an openmoko 197323:50
wirelessdreameropenmoko was doomed to failure from the start, they targeted devs with a touch screen only phone23:50
paroneayeawirelessdreamer: yes, I would agree with you there23:50
pupnikwhy not bluetooth keyboard23:50
paroneayeathat's one of the biggest faults of the project23:50
wirelessdreamerwho wants to carry one23:50
paroneayeapupnik: point of an on-phone keyboard is to make interfacing with it easy on the go23:51
wirelessdreameri want my device in 1 pocket, even if its big, not a phone in one, keyborad in the other23:51
paroneayeaI tried really hard to stick with my 197323:51
paroneayeabut only recently did it become usable as a phone23:51
pupniki appreciate the keyboard on n810 for e.g. but i was a happy camper with bluetooth keyboard on 77023:51
paroneayeathat, and most of the community was using the freerunnr23:51
pupnikreal typing, real speed23:51
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kirmaI must say I found finger interface of N900 a bit tedious with my (not gigantic) finger size... it would be totally unbearable if I would need to use virtual keyboard in addition to that :I23:52
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paroneayeait also comes with a builtin stylus, right?23:53
wirelessdreameranyone know whats required to unbind the edge buttons on the n900 so a seperate user space program can control them?23:53
fralsya paroneayea, comes with a stylus23:54
RST38hwireless: Have your tried simply reading them as GTK events?23:54
wirelessdreamerRST38h: I don't have an n900 yet =P23:55
wirelessdreamerand I want to disable the builtin functions23:55
kirmaparoneayea: it also comes with a keyboard :)23:56
kirma(and stylus)23:56
wirelessdreamerI want to port my user space chorded keyboard over once I get mine
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lardmannight all23:57
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woglindenite lardman23:57
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fralshmm, should probably get some popcorn for the eldar-thread23:58
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