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| smackpotato | so today im looking for a oppinion on swapping with flash memo | 00:40 |
|---|---|---|
| smackpotato | in perticular how much harm are the slow write speeds | 00:40 |
| luke-jr | ??? | 00:41 |
| johnx | swapping to sd? or swapping to the internal "rootfs" flash? | 00:41 |
| smackpotato | ether one. my question is conserning speed not wear | 00:42 |
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| johnx | "how much harm are the write speeds"? vs what? compared to what? | 00:44 |
| johnx | I swap to sd, because I like it better than running out of memory | 00:44 |
| smackpotato | compared to a small swap file | 00:44 |
| johnx | a small swap file ... where? | 00:44 |
| smackpotato | the same one | 00:45 |
| SpeedEvil | It depends on swap access patterns. | 00:45 |
| SpeedEvil | Worst-case you might see as low as several tens of K a second | 00:45 |
| SpeedEvil | best case several meg - write | 00:45 |
| johnx | but sd access will compete with other things trying to access that same sd card | 00:46 |
| johnx | i don't know if both sd cards compete with each other or if that would actually be faster | 00:46 |
| SpeedEvil | The internal sd is basically a standard SD - but soldered down? | 00:46 |
| johnx | yeah | 00:47 |
| johnx | and not terribly fast | 00:47 |
| johnx | (as long as we're talking the N810's 2GB internal SD) | 00:47 |
| smackpotato | ya i have | 00:47 |
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| smackpotato | so what size is your recomendation | 00:48 |
| smackpotato | im with 64mb | 00:48 |
| johnx | as big as you need | 00:48 |
| johnx | the big question is: what to set your swappiness variable to | 00:49 |
| smackpotato | swappiness is set to like 1 | 00:49 |
| johnx | yes. which means swap will only be used when absolutely needed. it's set conservatively to save card life, not aggressively to achieve the best possible speeds | 00:50 |
| johnx | so forget about the size, because unless you're constantly OOM, it doesn't even matter | 00:50 |
| smackpotato | oom? | 00:50 |
| johnx | out of memory | 00:51 |
| smackpotato | thanks guys | 00:51 |
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| braindump03 | Is there any max. size for a miniSD in the N810? | 01:02 |
| johnx | biggest you can find | 01:03 |
| braindump03 | Great. | 01:04 |
| braindump03 | 64GB aren't available yet, are they? | 01:04 |
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| microlith | sdhc maxes out at 32GB | 01:06 |
| microlith | and no 32GB miniSDHC cards exist (yet) | 01:06 |
| braindump03 | I don't think, miniSD will be continued. I will use microSD with MiniSD adaptor | 01:07 |
| crashanddie_ | braindump03, miniSD has already been abandoned | 01:07 |
| crashanddie_ | braindump03, for the past 2 years? | 01:07 |
| braindump03 | As I said ;) | 01:07 |
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| microlith | oh, mini | 01:08 |
| microlith | microsd falls into the same boat | 01:08 |
| braindump03 | I tried to buy miniSD yesterday. Not in stock anywhere | 01:09 |
| crashanddie_ | microlith, you think micro is going to die? | 01:09 |
| microlith | crashanddie_: nah, it's small enough that it'll hang around | 01:09 |
| microlith | I meant capacity-issues wise | 01:09 |
| microlith | that and I read "mini" and thought "micro" | 01:10 |
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| * till- waits for microsdxc | 01:11 | |
| SpeedEvil | microsdxc is coming | 01:13 |
| SpeedEvil | it's compatible with most microSD devices using firmware though | 01:13 |
| SpeedEvil | same way sd and sdhc was | 01:13 |
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| mavhc | why the 32GB limit on sdhc? | 01:15 |
| johnx | it's arbitrary | 01:16 |
| johnx | it's so sandisk can make money on licensing | 01:16 |
| crashanddie_ | CYA move | 01:16 |
| javispedro | artificial market segmentation | 01:16 |
| johnx | and what javispedro said | 01:16 |
| johnx | so you have to buy a new camera/media player/whatever | 01:16 |
| crashanddie_ | also, it gives them a safety net "The technological limit is 32gb, so there's no need for a 64gb chip" | 01:16 |
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| crashanddie_ | in case it really gets hard to go smaller | 01:17 |
| mavhc | seems like going from 32bit memory addressing to 34 bit | 01:17 |
| crashanddie_ | 34bit? | 01:17 |
| mavhc | exactly | 01:17 |
| javispedro | wtf? sony decided to use exfat too? | 01:18 |
| javispedro | ah well. | 01:18 |
| johnx | it's part of the sdxc standard | 01:18 |
| johnx | which just means "reformat to fat32 before use" :) | 01:18 |
| javispedro | but sony _is_ the standard :) | 01:18 |
| mavhc | but they are sony | 01:18 |
| javispedro | memory stick wise. | 01:18 |
| johnx | mavhc, nope, 32bit is a 4GB | 01:19 |
| mavhc | only if you're sony | 01:19 |
| johnx | SDXC calls for exfat | 01:19 |
| mavhc | johnx: you missed my point | 01:19 |
| javispedro | johnx: what I mean is that memory sticks now call for exfat too. | 01:19 |
| javispedro | memory stick xc, imaginatively called. | 01:19 |
| johnx | mavhc, err, nope. :) | 01:20 |
| mavhc | they're not dropping memory sticks? | 01:20 |
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| johnx | basically with sdhc they're not using addressing bits that are included already | 01:20 |
| mavhc | sigh | 01:20 |
| mavhc | at least xd is dead, and cf, pretty much | 01:20 |
| johnx | cf is still around in new cameras | 01:21 |
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| johnx | really a shame there wasn't a "micro cf" or similar | 01:21 |
| mavhc | someone made a raid cf card with 4 sd slots or something | 01:21 |
| johnx | anyways, so yeah, they're increasing the amount of addressable bits by going from sdhc->sdxc but sdhc arbitrarily cuts it off at a certain point | 01:22 |
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| mavhc | evil | 01:22 |
| johnx | of course, linux's sdhc implementation doesn't have this arbitrary limit ;) | 01:23 |
| johnx | sd->sdhc was actually a real addressing change, AFAIK | 01:23 |
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| GeneralAntilles | mavhc, all Linux devices that support SDHC also support SDXC (minus exFAT0. | 01:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | Oops | 01:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | Sorry, johnx, scrollback. | 01:26 |
| johnx | no worries :) | 01:26 |
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| johnx | eep, I need to get going | 01:26 |
| mavhc | so with a software change an sdhc slot becomes and sdxc slot? | 01:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | Right | 01:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | Wikipedia has the details. | 01:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | SDHC is artificially limited to addressing only 16 of the 22 bits available. | 01:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | But Linux just ignores that limit. | 01:28 |
| mavhc | not as evil then | 01:28 |
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| GeneralAntilles | The only hurdle is exFAT | 01:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | Which is only a hurdle if you need Windows compatibility. | 01:29 |
| mavhc | would I, random camera maker, have to pay a licence to update my own firmware? | 01:29 |
| johnx | yeah, but it was attempted evil | 01:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | Really evil shit, though, from the manufacturers. | 01:29 |
| yigal | Is there a way to download browser-proxy.py? http://forums.internettablettalk.com/showthread.php?t=29815&page=2 | 01:29 |
| johnx | yigal, copy, paste into a text editor, save | 01:30 |
| yigal | I'm on my n800 and it's not so easy to select just the code snippet in the html | 01:30 |
| yigal | Im using tear maybe thats why ill try microb? | 01:31 |
| johnx | hold the menu button and drag | 01:31 |
| yigal | Yes in general this works, but not seemingly in this case? | 01:32 |
| johnx | http://pastie.org/623130 | 01:34 |
| johnx | try it from here, then ;) | 01:34 |
| johnx | anyone interested in a better fusefs "UI"? | 01:35 |
| johnx | anyways, out for the evening | 01:35 |
| yigal | Thanks! MicroB worked, makes me question my resolution on changing browsers. :-) | 01:35 |
| johnx | might be on later tonight | 01:35 |
| johnx | tear is better :) | 01:35 |
| johnx | don't compromise | 01:35 |
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| yigal | True | 01:35 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Tear is too buggy. | 01:38 |
| yigal | But scrolling is Soooooo smooth | 01:39 |
| yigal | Mmmh such a nice experience, except for the bugs | 01:41 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, and tear is the browser with cross-hardware future ;) | 01:41 |
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| GeneralAntilles | MicroB is open source now. | 01:41 |
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| johnx | all the way up to the UI? nice! | 01:42 |
| johnx | wonder how I missed that | 01:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Announced a while ago. | 01:42 |
| johnx | so I guess those microb packages I saw in mer were actually the whole thing | 01:42 |
| johnx | interesting | 01:42 |
| johnx | I still think webkit is a better choice on devices with <=128MB of RAM, but now people will have a choice at least | 01:43 |
| johnx | 'later | 01:43 |
| yigal | Ty johnx | 01:43 |
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| yigal | GeneralAntilles: do later versions of microb have similar scrolling to tear? | 01:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | Fremantle versions. | 01:46 |
| yigal | and if so is it reasonable to use it on an n8x0? | 01:46 |
| yigal | or just >=n900 | 01:48 |
| yigal | When you have the time that is? | 01:49 |
| GeneralAntilles | Not sure. | 01:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | Likely it'll be possible to backport it. | 01:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | The key will be finding somebody with the time to do it. | 01:58 |
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| frals | hmm, if im missing the "add widget" (thru the hildon desktop interface) when running the sdk on xephyr, what would be the likely reason? | 02:07 |
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| lardman|afk | night all | 02:15 |
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| Woolly | hey all | 02:24 |
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| pupnik | javispedro drnoksnes @ 32khz sound way nicer than zsnes from my laptop speakers | 02:28 |
| pupnik | the stereo effect is quite nice (kudos nokia engineers!) | 02:29 |
| javispedro | :P | 02:29 |
| pupnik | i turned off oversampling/filtering in zsnes for comparison... | 02:29 |
| pupnik | just used to the unfiltered sound from old-tyme dos .MOD players | 02:30 |
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| Woolly | is there a way to drop the camera fps from 8 down to 5? | 02:35 |
| SpeedEvil | It may vary with ambient light | 02:36 |
| Woolly | hmm | 02:37 |
| Woolly | does the camera have a macro mode? | 02:37 |
| * lcuk makes javispedro's ears burn | 02:39 | |
| * javispedro is debugging a performance regression by trying to use git bisect | 02:39 | |
| javispedro | lcuk: for what reason? | 02:39 |
| lcuk | lol #liqbase | 02:39 |
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| pupnik | i'd like a keyboard shortcut in file manager for 'rename' | 03:03 |
| luke-jr | F2? | 03:04 |
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| pupnik | on nokia | 03:07 |
| pupnik | i haven't done the "tab" on keyboard hack yet | 03:07 |
| pupnik | and when i press tab on-screen it just displays a 'H' | 03:07 |
| pupnik | in xterm | 03:07 |
| pupnik | oddness | 03:07 |
| pupnik | so i using file manager | 03:08 |
| pupnik | after renaming a file, file manager (gtk) doesn't return you to the same view location. gtk probably only allows redisplaying the list at a certain filename | 03:09 |
| pupnik | oops wrong chan | 03:12 |
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| BoyBlunder | evening folks, quick question if possible | 05:17 |
| BoyBlunder | anyone know of a good .lit file viewer for the N810? | 05:17 |
| BoyBlunder | evening folks, quick question if possible | 05:19 |
| BoyBlunder | anyone know of a good .lit file viewer for the N810? | 05:20 |
| lcuk | for now try fbreader | 05:20 |
| lcuk | later there will be more (for varying amounts of later) | 05:20 |
| BoyBlunder | yeah, currently using FBReader, coming up empty. | 05:20 |
| BoyBlunder | their site says: This format is not supported and is unlikely to be ever supported. It is a closed format created and owned by Microsoft and any attempts to support it would be quite questionable from legal point of view. | 05:20 |
| lcuk | thats not coming up blank | 05:21 |
| lcuk | thats pretty clear to me | 05:21 |
| lcuk | find a windoers converter :) | 05:21 |
| lcuk | windows | 05:21 |
| BoyBlunder | is Mer worth the upgrade? currently running diablo | 05:22 |
| BoyBlunder | seems kinda sluggish at times on my n810 | 05:23 |
| luke-jr | BoyBlunder: Mer is still alpha-quality IIRC | 05:23 |
| BoyBlunder | oh wow, still got a ways to go then | 05:24 |
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| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: when was microb opened? | 09:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, the intention was announced a while ago, the full source isn't available yet, however. | 09:02 |
| Stskeeps | ah | 09:02 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: read http://mynokiablog.com/2009/09/16/video-nokia-n900-qa-with-jussi-makinen-and-maemo-community-guys/ ? | 09:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | Skimmed | 09:11 |
| Stskeeps | some good comments on Mer there too | 09:11 |
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| johnx | anyone tried "wizard mounter"? Did you actually get it to work right? | 09:31 |
| Stskeeps | i think once yes | 09:32 |
| Stskeeps | but smb and nfs doesnt lend itself well to mobile usage | 09:32 |
| johnx | suppose so :/ | 09:32 |
| johnx | does it use smbfs or one of the fuse-based smb things? | 09:32 |
| johnx | ah, it uses the kernel versions | 09:33 |
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| Sudhir | Hello all. I have got a probelm while running a newly compiled qt progra, on n810. It work on scratchbox but gives error like this on device --> line 1: syntax error : "(" unexpected | 10:09 |
| Sudhir | Can anyone help me identify this problem? | 10:09 |
| johnx | huh | 10:13 |
| johnx | I think I've seen that before | 10:13 |
| qwerty12_N810 | (Psst... N810 != X86) | 10:14 |
| johnx | yup, that's where I saw it :) | 10:14 |
| johnx | actually, where I saw it was an ARM executable linked against uclibc on a glibc system, but it's the same idea | 10:15 |
| johnx | Sudhir, recompile with the ARM target in scratchbox | 10:15 |
| Stskeeps | johnx, saw the transcript? | 10:15 |
| johnx | the thing with Jussi? | 10:16 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 10:16 |
| Sudhir | ohhh i got it | 10:16 |
| johnx | yeah, I read through most of it | 10:16 |
| johnx | interesting stuff | 10:16 |
| johnx | some, PR related dodging, but overall very candid | 10:16 |
| johnx | it was interesting to see them reference ITT/TMO when asked about demographics :D | 10:16 |
| Stskeeps | dear god | 10:17 |
| Sudhir | johnx, qwerty12__n810 thanks. It was the mistake, i used x86 image on device. | 10:17 |
| johnx | no problem. everyone makes that mistake eventually ;) | 10:18 |
| Myrtti | nööf | 10:18 |
| Stskeeps | i like the view of mer-at least it shows we are regarded well | 10:18 |
| Sudhir | ;-) | 10:18 |
| Stskeeps | morn Myrtti | 10:18 |
| Myrtti | stupid weddings | 10:18 |
| johnx | you can use the 'file' command to see what arch your binary is compiled for | 10:18 |
| Myrtti | I want to be at the maemo summit | 10:18 |
| Stskeeps | instead of being married? ;) | 10:18 |
| qwerty12_N810 | Myrtti: get the wedding moved to the venue where the Summit is being held, problem solved! :p | 10:19 |
| johnx | I'll officiate :) | 10:19 |
| Myrtti | qwerty12_N810: not in my hands, I suspect the couple would have objections | 10:19 |
| Myrtti | Stskeeps: haven't been proposed yet | 10:19 |
| qwerty12_N810 | The couple are not fans of weed and canals? =) | 10:20 |
| Myrtti | I've never met either of them | 10:20 |
| Myrtti | so I wouldn't know | 10:20 |
| * Stskeeps still can't believe he's married by now | 10:20 | |
| qwerty12_N810 | Stskeeps: Which is why you can still be found at a computer? ;P | 10:21 |
| Myrtti | though, if I convince myself to believe they wouldn't have N900 with scandinavian keyboard on sale at the summit anyway | 10:22 |
| Stskeeps | bingo, or, i have sufficient space to do my work | 10:22 |
| Myrtti | doesn't work - I still want to be at the summit | 10:22 |
| qwerty12_N810 | Videolink: Send your N800 there and buy the N900 and have them sharing video | 10:23 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12_N810: reminds me of www.smbc-comics.com today | 10:25 |
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| qwerty12_N810 | lol | 10:26 |
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| kirma | heh. | 10:53 |
| * kirma observes that one .fi webshop says N900 is available in three weeks | 10:54 | |
| kirma | for last three days, the arrival date has been three weeks from that date ;) | 10:54 |
| slonopotamus | kirma, you didn't expect it to become less, don't you? | 10:55 |
| johnx | the pandora has been two months out for almost a year :) | 10:55 |
| johnx | the cuuuurse of the OMAP3 :D | 10:55 |
| kirma | well... | 10:58 |
| qwerty12_N810 | The curse of people who don't know what they're doing | 10:58 |
| johnx | yeah, i'm pretty glad that most of the time I've basically forgotten about the money entirely | 11:00 |
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| Stskeeps | lo lbt | 11:04 |
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| lbt | good morning Stskeeps | 11:08 |
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| Dantonic | hi anyone use festival? | 11:16 |
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| Macer | oh | 12:01 |
| johnx | no | 12:01 |
| Macer | no kidding. i guess they didn't cancel defying gravity | 12:02 |
| Macer | awesome. to have left it with that last episode would have been a nail biter :) | 12:02 |
| johnx | also: new eps of "Fringe" :D | 12:02 |
| johnx | just about the only TV show I watch on purpose | 12:02 |
| Macer | johnx: yeah :) | 12:03 |
| Macer | but the first one sucked | 12:03 |
| Macer | wtf .. what happened to leonard nimoy? :) | 12:03 |
| Macer | they just jumped ahead to where she was being chased by some shape shifter | 12:03 |
| johnx | unrelated: On talk.m.o, where is the "Fall in a hole!" option to go with the "Thanks!" option? | 12:04 |
| johnx | Macer, yeah, kinda confused me | 12:04 |
| lcuk | thats the reply button | 12:04 |
| johnx | Macer, I figured I just forgot what happened. Glad to hear my memory isn't going that badly yet | 12:04 |
| Macer | haha | 12:04 |
| Macer | honestly i thought i missed an episode | 12:05 |
| Macer | so i double checked | 12:05 |
| Macer | i was wrong :) that is how it was supposed to go | 12:05 |
| Macer | the guy that plays peter looks like he is strung out on herion | 12:05 |
| johnx | got to admit that first ep really simulates memory loss, rather well :) | 12:05 |
| Macer | like.. i think he is strung out in real life | 12:06 |
| Macer | haha | 12:06 |
| Macer | nobody looks that pale and has eyes that red without being strung out | 12:06 |
| mavhc | I saw 2 eps of fringe, yawn | 12:07 |
| mavhc | same with defying gravity | 12:07 |
| Macer | you can never judge a show by its first 2 episodes | 12:07 |
| mavhc | I can judge it by the first 10 mins | 12:07 |
| Macer | i thought raising the bar sucked until later on in the season | 12:07 |
| Macer | mavhc: haha | 12:07 |
| mavhc | if you can't write a good pilot why should I waste my time with you? | 12:08 |
| Macer | i give a show at least 4 episodes | 12:08 |
| Macer | heh | 12:08 |
| Macer | ever go back and look at the first simpson episodes? | 12:08 |
| mavhc | yes, funny | 12:08 |
| johnx | mavhc, that's why I never read the grapes of wrath: if the first paragraph doesn't pull me in, then why should I care? | 12:08 |
| Macer | no.. they suck | 12:08 |
| Macer | :) | 12:08 |
| Macer | but they were new so people sucked it up | 12:09 |
| Macer | haha | 12:09 |
| Macer | yeah... i'm sorry but a show should be given more than 10 minutes. character development takes a little while | 12:09 |
| mavhc | johnx: if it were published paragraph by paragraph, who would? | 12:09 |
| Macer | it's like watching a basketball team that has never played together... once they get good at it... they win championships | 12:09 |
| johnx | mavhc, I guess I might follow your rule if I actually watched TV on TV :) | 12:10 |
| mavhc | it's like watching a basketball team that has never played together, and filming their first training session | 12:10 |
| mavhc | wait until they're good, then put them in public | 12:10 |
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| practisevoodoo_ | does anyone know the new google streets url needed for maemo maps? | 12:15 |
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| thux | about google, how long it take to see in net what google's camera car has filmed? | 12:25 |
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| unixSnob | thux: should be weeks in lag time for privacy issues | 12:26 |
| lcuk | thux, i dunno but i imagine one day soon they will have live as it happens | 12:27 |
| SpeedEvil | The software they use is automatic | 12:27 |
| SpeedEvil | The blurring I mean | 12:27 |
| SpeedEvil | (and not 100% reliable) | 12:27 |
| thux | ok thanks | 12:27 |
| * SpeedEvil needs some funds to do openstreetview. | 12:27 | |
| thux | just got filmed last week :) | 12:27 |
| SpeedEvil | I need to work up a proposal. | 12:28 |
| unixSnob | like the couple who was filmed in their front yard, in a compromising position, which later circulated at their workplace and cause embarrassment | 12:28 |
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| unixSnob | the bluring filter wouldn't automatically detect that | 12:28 |
| aSIMULAter | compromising position | 12:28 |
| SpeedEvil | IMO - doing shit in public = no expectation of privacy | 12:28 |
| aSIMULAter | yeah | 12:28 |
| aSIMULAter | who's stupid enough to do it out on their front yard when a car is going by | 12:28 |
| unixSnob | SpeedEvil: they weren't doing sex.. it just appeared that way | 12:28 |
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| unixSnob | they have a good case | 12:28 |
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| unixSnob | if one was helping the other push a sign into the ground, for example, the right angle may make it look like soemthing else | 12:29 |
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| unixSnob | i don't know exactly what they were doing, but the case was that they were doing something completely normal in public, not sexual, but the camera just got the right shot to cause embarrassment | 12:31 |
| aSIMULAter | o well sucks to be them | 12:31 |
| unixSnob | actually, great to be them.. they got a good settlement iirc | 12:31 |
| unixSnob | google (rightly) got spanked hard for that | 12:32 |
| lcuk | aSIMULAter, doesnt have to be front yard - could be anywhere - normal humans might catch a glimpse of something round a corner, thats not the same as taking a photo and allowing it to be zoomed | 12:33 |
| lcuk | and framed and printed | 12:33 |
| unixSnob | Those google street view cams also stray down streets that are posted "private road", so of course residents on those streets have an expectation of privacy | 12:34 |
| lcuk | didnt that couple lose their case | 12:34 |
| lcuk | http://www.businessinsider.com/court-tries-google-street-view-vs-privacy-rights-case-google-wins-2009-2 | 12:35 |
| unixSnob | lcuk: maybe.. i might have the wrong one where google had to do a 180 degree policy change | 12:36 |
| unixSnob | heh, their last name was "Boring" | 12:36 |
| lcuk | lol | 12:37 |
| lcuk | "mr boring, you are brought before this court today because you did not live up to your name. " | 12:37 |
| lcuk | "after a night of heavy drinking you proceeded to recreate the clock tower scene from 'back to the future' whilst naked. this caused severe upset to many people near the town hall, especially the mayor whom quite fortuitously managed to catch your fall" | 12:39 |
| aSIMULAter | :) | 12:39 |
| unixSnob | "two male colleagues pictured in an apparently compromising position (they seemed to be kissing, but were not) who suffered embarrassment when the image was circulated at their workplace, and when their female partners learned of it." <- that's the case i was probably reading about | 12:40 |
| unixSnob | "A fifteen year-old boy was caught carrying a skateboard, which his parents had expressly forbade him from using." | 12:41 |
| unixSnob | some kid probably got spanked because of a google cam | 12:41 |
| unixSnob | another good case -> "A married man was captured speaking at close proximity with a female colleague. Because of noisy road work, he was forced to speak into her ear, but the image created the appearance of intimacy, leading to an argument with his wife." | 12:42 |
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| unixSnob | Is Qt supposed to be part of the maemo sdk+ package? | 12:45 |
| unixSnob | I thought it was, but qmake seems to be missing | 12:46 |
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| lbt | Wow .... Obi Wan Kenobi must have been born.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-P1zZAcPuw | 12:47 |
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| lcuk | lbt yeah | 13:02 |
| lcuk | the feedback mechanism is amazing | 13:02 |
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| lbt | and the paper/ultrasound shows how it's not like 'wind' | 13:03 |
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| lcuk | yeah lbt | 13:06 |
| lcuk | really neat | 13:06 |
| sp3000 | a skating elephant! | 13:07 |
| * lbt pondering PUSH | 13:07 | |
| lcuk | they shouldv done a mouse | 13:07 |
| lbt | elephant is cute | 13:07 |
| * lcuk and crash and kot pushed last week. pondering some others too | 13:08 | |
| lcuk | lbt, choose something simple elegant and within boundaries of buildability | 13:08 |
| lcuk | the example projects they did were really cool | 13:09 |
| lcuk | and everyone was clamouring to have a proper look | 13:09 |
| * lcuk was v impressed by em all | 13:09 | |
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| * unixSnob tests whether installing qt dev tools is as simple as $ aptitude install qt4-dev-tools | 13:14 | |
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| Captain_Picard | http://www.liitos.net/fi/blogi/326-10-ei-suositeltua-huumetta-ja-paeihdettae | 13:20 |
| unixSnob | nice! booooya! It's so fucking nice when a tool installation just works. No hacking, not bullshit, no fucking around with loose ends.. it just worked | 13:20 |
| lbt | of course | 13:21 |
| unixSnob | of course, I had to go through a lot of bullshit to get an environment that would work that way, since Maemo SDK+ doesn't work on 64bit kernels | 13:22 |
| lbt | who knows how I can create a circuit whos resistance varies given a variable input voltage ? | 13:28 |
| lbt | unixSnob: does too | 13:28 |
| lbt | doesn't work on 64bit libc though ;) | 13:28 |
| unixSnob | lbt: it doesn't "just work".. I had to create a chrooted environment that serves up 32bit libs. But it can execute on a 64bit | 13:29 |
| lbt | yeah - you need to run mixed 64/32 kernel/userspace | 13:29 |
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| Robin_Watts | Hi all. I've downloaded the maemo sdk image, and I'm running it under VMWare player. I've created a new C Maemo project using the gtkhelloworld thing as it's template. I can build it and run it on the local emulation. lovely stuff. | 15:14 |
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| Robin_Watts | Now I update the "hello" function to include a call out to a new function that I'll define in an assembler file. | 15:15 |
| Robin_Watts | I rebuild, and nowhere can I see an error given to say it's not defined. | 15:16 |
| Robin_Watts | The helloworld binary isn't updated (well, the time doesn't change). | 15:16 |
| Robin_Watts | Any clues? | 15:16 |
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| lcuk | Robin_Watts, pastebin the console log for recompiling the helloworld binary after making the change | 15:21 |
| lcuk | but it sounds like the compiler is choking and not rebuilding you a new binary... | 15:21 |
| lcuk | which is what i would do if i were trying to compile your incomplete code | 15:21 |
| Sudhir | Robin, may be you delete the old binary and see if you get a new one after recompiling | 15:21 |
| lcuk | i dont think hes getting a new binary | 15:22 |
| Sudhir | Yes, he is not. | 15:22 |
| lcuk | if his function includes a call to a not yet existing function and the new .o module has not been linked with the binary - how can it complete the compilation task | 15:22 |
| Sudhir | He said the time stamp doesnt change | 15:22 |
| lcuk | yeah thats entirely true | 15:22 |
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| lcuk | o_O lbt, use a real globe and some motors and make the globe rotate and move an arrow around to show position on the globe :D | 15:26 |
| SpeedEvil | You need to add the library containing the assembler function to the list of libraries you link against | 15:27 |
| SpeedEvil | lcuk: I have a 1:1 globe. It sucks. | 15:27 |
| lbt | lcuk: and link to flickr.... | 15:28 |
| lcuk | lol | 15:28 |
| lcuk | the 1:1 globe needs improving tho lol | 15:28 |
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| lbt | so when you browse flikr photos the globe moves... nice :) | 15:28 |
| lcuk | heh or your contacts | 15:30 |
| lcuk | parcel tracking involving a pen on the globe | 15:30 |
| lcuk | just mail yourself stuff from everywhere | 15:30 |
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| Robin_Watts | Gents, the problem I'm having is that I *can't* find the build output anywhere! | 15:58 |
| Robin_Watts | no errors, nothing. | 15:58 |
| Robin_Watts | Let me start again from scratch. | 15:59 |
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| Robin_Watts | File - > New C Maemo Project. GTK Hello World Project. | 15:59 |
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| Robin_Watts | call it gtkhello3, select DIABLO_ARMEL (Debug) as the default | 16:00 |
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| andre__ | Robin_Watts, "File - > New C Maemo Project" - where? | 16:01 |
| Robin_Watts | I wonder if it's been broken by me upgrading stuff... let me revert the VMimage to the downloaded one and start completely from scratch. That'll take me a while cos it'll have to decompress, so I'll go walk the dogs. | 16:02 |
| Robin_Watts | So, back in an hour or so - thanks! | 16:02 |
| wazd | hello Maemo | 16:04 |
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| RST38h | ehlo all | 16:06 |
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| wazd | RST38h: heya | 16:07 |
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| pupnik | OmapFB vs SGX blitting http://sandbox.movial.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/cairoperf-omapfb-vs-sgx.txt | 16:08 |
| RST38h | pupnik: Can OmapFB blitter be used at all? | 16:10 |
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| pupnik | these are on beagleboard | 16:11 |
| RST38h | ah | 16:11 |
| lcuk | hi wazd RST38h pip | 16:11 |
| lcuk | pupnik, | 16:11 |
| RST38h | moo lcuk | 16:11 |
| pupnik | this issue could have significant impacts | 16:11 |
| pupnik | which is the only reason i bring it up | 16:11 |
| RST38h | Well, I can't even figure out how to blit with omapfb | 16:12 |
| RST38h | It is not like n8x0 where you commanded the Blizzard and it jumped | 16:12 |
| lcuk | but blizzard was end unit | 16:12 |
| lcuk | how did you do hardware blits with blizzard? | 16:12 |
| lcuk | and get at the results for further processing? | 16:13 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Blizzard did the DMA, scaled the picture, and showed it on the actual LCD | 16:13 |
| lcuk | im guessing the sort of blitting you need would be like talking to the DSP | 16:13 |
| Corsac | Starcraft! | 16:13 |
| RST38h | lcuk: So you had a /dev/fb0 ioctl() that set up scaling parameters and initiated the blit | 16:13 |
| RST38h | it was way easier than talking to dsp really | 16:14 |
| lcuk | initiated the display of your data in a certain rectangle | 16:14 |
| lcuk | granted | 16:14 |
| RST38h | But anyways, Blizzard is gone, ok | 16:14 |
| RST38h | lcuk: more or less, yes | 16:14 |
| lcuk | i think blitter like blitter on amiga - a custom coprocessor that manipulated your frame data | 16:14 |
| RST38h | So back to the basics: got a framebuffer, got an image in memory, how do I quickly blit it to framebuffer, with scaling? | 16:15 |
| lcuk | and then you could do other things with your frame afterwards | 16:15 |
| RST38h | lcuk: that was the copper chip | 16:15 |
| RST38h | lcuk: word "blitter" (from "to blit") is generic nowadays and means quick copying of bitmaps | 16:15 |
| pupnik | it would be nifty if you could build the image in 'shared memory' then when finished, set the start addr of framebuffer to that | 16:16 |
| lcuk | blitter and copper are 2 different things | 16:16 |
| pupnik | i.e. no copy at all | 16:17 |
| jaska | amiga also had separate bitplanes instead of chunked pixels as nowadays | 16:17 |
| * lcuk liked bitplanes | 16:18 | |
| RST38h | jaska: yea, scary | 16:18 |
| pupnik | so did the zenith z-110 :) | 16:18 |
| RST38h | In fact, you can request a bitplaned image from X11 | 16:18 |
| lcuk | yeah, and that was one of the first things i looked for | 16:19 |
| lcuk | i wouldnt have minded pure bw image | 16:19 |
| RST38h | Although modern X11 implementations (Xfree) will offer you to go screw yourself instead | 16:19 |
| lcuk | how does it send over lowcolor x11 remoting stuff | 16:21 |
| lcuk | does it use min 256 colors? | 16:21 |
| lcuk | and chunky | 16:21 |
| lcuk | cos im sure ive seen extreme low color x11 | 16:21 |
| RST38h | 1bit | 16:22 |
| RST38h | 4bits | 16:22 |
| RST38h | 8bits | 16:22 |
| RST38h | Anything in 4-8bits range is palettized views | 16:22 |
| pupnik | i think NeXT had smth like 4-bit for the mono slabs | 16:22 |
| pupnik | when you ran the x server built for it | 16:22 |
| RST38h | 4bits is a valid depth | 16:23 |
| pupnik | (it didnt normally run one) | 16:23 |
| RST38h | not very useful but valid | 16:23 |
| pupnik | mhm | 16:23 |
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| pupnik | mono saved you cpu cycles back then :) | 16:23 |
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| * jaska shivers at 8bit directcolor and private colormaps | 16:25 | |
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| RST38h | 8bit directcolor is still better than private colormaps | 16:26 |
| CShadowRun | lol i've just had a funny idea for the n900, you could install epsxe on it and use it as a psp | 16:26 |
| CShadowRun | the n900 meets the minimum requirements | 16:27 |
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| RST38h | What a fresh idea! | 16:27 |
| RST38h | Amazing. | 16:27 |
| qwerty12_N810 | psX | 16:27 |
| pupnik | :) | 16:27 |
| CShadowRun | RST38h, sarcasm? D: | 16:27 |
| lcuk | CShadowRun duuuuuuude, thats it | 16:27 |
| pupnik | epsxe would get estimated 2-3 fps | 16:28 |
| lcuk | hey qwerty12_N810 \o | 16:28 |
| RST38h | moo qwerty | 16:28 |
| lcuk | but they would be sweeeeeeeeeeet fps | 16:28 |
| qwerty12_N810 | Hullo lcuk, how's things? | 16:28 |
| qwerty12_N810 | Hi RST38h :) | 16:28 |
| CShadowRun | pupnik, aww, the phone does go above the minimum requirements | 16:28 |
| pupnik | or pcsx rather | 16:28 |
| Corsac | you only need scummvm anyway | 16:28 |
| Corsac | and it already works on n8x0 | 16:28 |
| pupnik | not for pcsx | 16:28 |
| pupnik | psx4all could run on it though | 16:29 |
| lcuk | bah! at emulation again tho. | 16:29 |
| * lcuk goes and hacks the future | 16:29 | |
| pupnik | mhm yep | 16:29 |
| CShadowRun | haha | 16:29 |
| CShadowRun | could definatly get some snes/megadrive in there at any rate | 16:29 |
| pupnik | CShadowRun: are you interested in porting emus? | 16:29 |
| CShadowRun | nah i'm nowhere near that skilled | 16:30 |
| CShadowRun | i was just thinking it'd be cool. | 16:30 |
| pupnik | ok, what systems would you like most on tablets? | 16:30 |
| CShadowRun | well probably playstation being the main | 16:31 |
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| pupnik | k | 16:31 |
| CShadowRun | i wonder if you could port wii and make use of the accelerometer | 16:31 |
| CShadowRun | that would be fun | 16:31 |
| CShadowRun | but wii is probably too much for the phone | 16:31 |
| CShadowRun | i'd say playstation, snes, mame, megadrive, gamecube, dreamcast | 16:32 |
| CShadowRun | in order of popularity | 16:32 |
| lcuk | why not just play real good games on the device as it stands | 16:32 |
| CShadowRun | i thought of that too, i wonder what games it could run :P | 16:32 |
| timo2 | let's not forget amiga | 16:32 |
| CShadowRun | oh amiga...i grew up on one of those things...how could i forget :P | 16:32 |
| pupnik | javispedro's snes port is great fun. the music in the rpgs is so pretty on those n810 speakers | 16:32 |
| timo2 | although even e-uae is a bit dead these days | 16:32 |
| pupnik | it kind of gets 3-dimensional | 16:32 |
| CShadowRun | cool :D | 16:32 |
| pupnik | esp @ 32000hz -imo | 16:33 |
| CShadowRun | hehe | 16:33 |
| pupnik | you know that playstation emulator runs on n8x0? | 16:33 |
| pupnik | pcsx from linux | 16:33 |
| * CShadowRun youtubes that | 16:34 | |
| pupnik | i didn't upload to youtube | 16:34 |
| CShadowRun | aww | 16:34 |
| pupnik | because it runs 60-70 fpm | 16:34 |
| CShadowRun | how well does that work? | 16:35 |
| pupnik | or 50-70 | 16:35 |
| CShadowRun | haha | 16:35 |
| CShadowRun | 1fps basically | 16:35 |
| RST38h | I guess this can be improved | 16:35 |
| pupnik | yup | 16:35 |
| RST38h | we have got ogles | 16:35 |
| CShadowRun | the n900 has a bit more processing power though, so we can get that up | 16:35 |
| pupnik | psx4gp2x at 290mhz gets smth like 12-18fps? | 16:35 |
| RST38h | and I kinda doubt generic MIPS emulation is optimal for ARM | 16:36 |
| pupnik | the point is, don't expect a PC-app to run fast on an ARM | 16:36 |
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| pupnik | well that's way too general | 16:36 |
| pupnik | rather, an emulator of a heavy system like psx | 16:37 |
| unixSnob | after installing Qt, I noticed I don't have af-sb-init.sh or run-standalone.sh. What package am I missing? | 16:37 |
| CShadowRun | the other thing i'd find really fun, is running empathy | 16:39 |
| CShadowRun | or pidgin | 16:39 |
| Corsac | I guess a telepathy client is installed | 16:39 |
| Corsac | as in the n8x0 | 16:39 |
| pupnik | hildon-initscripts? osso-af-startup? unixSnob | 16:41 |
| unixSnob | pupnik: i'll check it out.. those packages don't sound familiar so I'm probably missing them | 16:42 |
| pupnik | what OS version | 16:42 |
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| pupnik | i don't know anything about fremantle or mer | 16:43 |
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| Summeli | pupnik: did you try psx4all with N800? | 16:44 |
| unixSnob | diablo | 16:44 |
| Summeli | I got that running in symbian in couple of hours :P | 16:44 |
| Summeli | should be quite easy to port to maemo | 16:44 |
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| pupnik | not yet | 16:51 |
| pupnik | go for it | 16:51 |
| pupnik | :) | 16:52 |
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| unixSnob | pupnik: those packages aren't even choices in this chrooted lenny that i've set up; but I see that the run-standalone.sh is installed on my device | 16:52 |
| Summeli | I have N810, but not enough time :) | 16:52 |
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| Summeli | maybe I'll try that with N900, when it comes out :P | 16:53 |
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| * unixSnob desides to just put a warning in the wiki article that a step is missing, and let someone else figure it out | 16:59 | |
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| Robin_Watts | ok, gents. I'm, back with a completely clean copy of the MaemoSDK running in a VMware player instance on windows XP. | 17:28 |
| Robin_Watts | What I really want to do is to be able to test some simple ARM code that uses ARMv6/7 stuff within the emulated machine. | 17:29 |
| Robin_Watts | I foolishly thought that the easiest way to do that would be to take a simple "hello world" example, and then just tag a bit of extra code onto that - but then I hit all the problems I was talking about earlier. | 17:30 |
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| Robin_Watts | To start with, it's telling me that there are "Software updates available". Do I ignore that? | 17:31 |
| RST38h | Robin: What problems? | 17:32 |
| Robin_Watts | I tried to use ESbox but found that I couldn't make it rebuild etc - it would pretend to do something but never give me any results/errors or change the final binary. | 17:33 |
| RST38h | Ok, hint #1: Do not use ESBox | 17:33 |
| Robin_Watts | So I've reverted to a clean slate in the hopes that I can get further. | 17:34 |
| Robin_Watts | OK, that sounds like a really great hint :) | 17:34 |
| RST38h | Hint #2: Find a hello world example that does not use autoconf (Maemo3 docs/howtos) | 17:34 |
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| RST38h | Hint #3: Use the "make" command | 17:34 |
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| Robin_Watts | That sounds great. Any URLs for hint #2 would be hugely greatly appreciated. | 17:35 |
| RST38h | Hint #4: Your plain linux hello world will compile and work on maemo: | #include <stdio.h> | int main(int argc,char *argv[]) { printf("Hello world\n");return(0); } | 17:35 |
| RST38h | It will not be able to use the UI, but it WILL compile to ARM code and WILL run (unless you get burned by the ARM emulator in the SDK) | 17:36 |
| Robin_Watts | A hello world example on linux I can manage. It's the invocations for the scratchbox stuff that I have no clue about. | 17:37 |
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| RST38h | Robin: in the scratchbox console, type "make" first, then the name of your program | 17:40 |
| RST38h | Robin: it should run transparently (in theory) | 17:40 |
| Robin_Watts | Woo Hoo! | 17:41 |
| Robin_Watts | My mistake was trying to use ESbox. | 17:41 |
| Robin_Watts | many thanks everyone. | 17:41 |
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| pupnik | Robin_Watts: hey where did you get the missing vmware file? | 17:46 |
| pupnik | you using this? http://maemovmware.garage.maemo.org/2nd_edition/index.html | 17:48 |
| pupnik | Maemo_Ubuntu_Intrepid_Server_SDK_Virtual_Image.zip 220638937 | 17:48 |
| pupnik | ? | 17:48 |
| pupnik | or Maemo_Ubuntu_Intrepid_Desktop_SDK_Virtual_Image.zip ? | 17:48 |
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| Robin_Watts | Desktop. | 17:51 |
| Robin_Watts | What missing vmware file ? | 17:51 |
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| pupnik | Robin_Watts: lemme check | 17:58 |
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| pupnik | the vmx was missing from my download | 17:59 |
| pupnik | so i was putzing with one | 18:00 |
| Robin_Watts | My download has various readme files, and 2 useful files. blah.vmd and blah.vmdk | 18:00 |
| Robin_Watts | Sorry. blah.vmdk and blah.vmx | 18:01 |
| Robin_Watts | THe first is the 5Gig disk image. | 18:01 |
| pupnik | so vmplayer worked with the download right out of hte box? | 18:01 |
| Robin_Watts | The vmx is the tiny 3K config file. | 18:01 |
| Robin_Watts | Double click the config file, and VMplayer runs out of the box, yes. | 18:01 |
| pupnik | did you use hardy or intrepid, desktop or server? | 18:02 |
| Robin_Watts | intrepid desktop | 18:02 |
| pupnik | k | 18:02 |
| Robin_Watts | Maemo_Ubuntu_Intrepid_Desktop_SDK_Virtual_Image.zip | 18:03 |
| * Robin_Watts has to head out to fix another computer. joy. bbl. Thanks all. | 18:04 | |
| pupnik | maybe it's the mega computer-god controller interfering with my tv-eyes reception | 18:04 |
| pupnik | ty | 18:04 |
| ccooke | It's not currently possible to install osm2go, is it? | 18:04 |
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| lbt | lcuk: Oi | 18:09 |
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| jorma | hello | 18:59 |
| jorma | I followed the link on the maemo wiki | 18:59 |
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| lcuk | lbt, wot? | 19:03 |
| wazd | konttori: heya, can I ask questions bout Theme Maker? :) | 19:03 |
| konttori | sure | 19:04 |
| lbt | lcuk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPXyES0-9-Q | 19:04 |
| RST38h | moo wazd, konttori | 19:04 |
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| wazd | RST38h: reheya :) | 19:04 |
| RST38h | konttori: btw, wanted to ask a question about theme maker too | 19:04 |
| lcuk | i just saw - apologies went park with fam | 19:04 |
| wazd | konttori: first of all it doesn't work :D | 19:04 |
| lcuk | thats cool | 19:04 |
| lcuk | how does it work on n900 | 19:04 |
| wazd | konttori: goes to 1% and stops | 19:04 |
| lbt | lcuk: come and try it | 19:04 |
| konttori | wazd: you need to select also the icon template | 19:04 |
| konttori | sorry | 19:04 |
| lcuk | hows it connected | 19:05 |
| wazd | konttori: did it but nothing happened | 19:05 |
| lbt | usb-A | 19:05 |
| konttori | wazd: osx? | 19:05 |
| RST38h | konttori: Is it possible to theme scroll list backgrounds in Fremantle? | 19:05 |
| wazd | konttori: Vista, latest Java | 19:05 |
| RST38h | konttori: [namely, replace plain black with something resembling a drum, iPhone style?] | 19:05 |
| konttori | wazd: ah, that might explain it. i haven't tested it at all on windows yet | 19:06 |
| lcuk | lbt, how far are you | 19:06 |
| wazd | konttori: well, that's not urgent :) | 19:06 |
| lbt | Reading :) | 19:06 |
| konttori | wazd: hmm... can you make a .bat file? | 19:06 |
| wazd | konttori: another question bout template layout | 19:06 |
| lbt | just kidding .... for now | 19:06 |
| konttori | I can tell you what to put in there. | 19:06 |
| wazd | konttori: well, yep:) | 19:06 |
| lcuk | i know.. | 19:06 |
| lcuk | but for reference lol | 19:06 |
| konttori | wazd: put in there: java -Xms512m -Xmx1024m -jar /Users/urhokonttori/Documents/Projects/ThemeMaker/ThemeMaker1.2.1/MaemoThemeMaker.jar | 19:07 |
| konttori | eh, of course the path being what you have yourself as the location of the jar file | 19:07 |
| lbt | it's usb-b | 19:07 |
| konttori | or just: java -Xms512m -Xmx1024m -jar ./MaemoThemeMaker.jar | 19:07 |
| wazd | konttori: in the Thumb Keyboard section, there are two types of Keyboard buttons, they look identical. What's the difference between them? | 19:07 |
| lbt | so we need a mini-usb -> usb-B | 19:07 |
| lcuk | would most likely need a bluetooth serial pusher - im not even sure what the usb on here is | 19:07 |
| lcuk | ive got a standard f-f hackjob | 19:08 |
| konttori | that might or might not work, depending on how windows likes to handle things on command line | 19:08 |
| lcuk | i used it with my 810 to connect a kb | 19:08 |
| lbt | yep | 19:08 |
| lcuk | i should be able to use the same hack | 19:08 |
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| konttori | wazd: the common and keyboard? | 19:08 |
| wazd | under "keyboard buttons" there are 4 rectangles | 19:09 |
| lbt | http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270451345146 | 19:09 |
| lbt | lcuk: ^^^ ? | 19:09 |
| lcuk | this is what the tinker.it people used http://www.coolcomponents.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=134&osCsid=j90j5kqfegquksdbumahtmuqg5 | 19:09 |
| wazd | konttori: 2 pressed and 2 released | 19:09 |
| wazd | konttori: and only 1 disabled | 19:10 |
| lcuk | heh yeah for later | 19:10 |
| lcuk | just not for what i needed on a sunday night | 19:10 |
| wazd | konttori: common are on the left :) | 19:10 |
| wazd | konttori: oh, that bat helped, thx! | 19:10 |
| wazd | konttori: or not really, stopped at 23% :( | 19:10 |
| konttori | wazd: does the command line of the bat show anything? | 19:11 |
| wazd | konttori: lots of things :) | 19:11 |
| konttori | wazd: can you pastebin | 19:12 |
| wazd | konttori: something is outside raster it says | 19:12 |
| wazd | konttori: http://pastebin.com/m25e6e104 | 19:13 |
| konttori | the right column on the keys is for the accent variation | 19:13 |
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| konttori | wazd: do you have the correct bacgrounds template? | 19:14 |
| konttori | looks like it's issue in the second row of the bacgrounds. | 19:14 |
| konttori | hmm... maybe I should catch those errors. | 19:14 |
| wazd | konttori: oh, my bad | 19:14 |
| wazd | konttori: what are they for btw? :) | 19:15 |
| konttori | you mean the second row? | 19:15 |
| wazd | konttori: yep | 19:15 |
| konttori | it's for startup bg, then media player bg, then I'll add a few others there as well. | 19:16 |
| wazd | konttori: I thought it was like an example and deleted them :) | 19:16 |
| konttori | nope. | 19:16 |
| wazd | konttori: oh, got it | 19:16 |
| konttori | so, works for you now? | 19:16 |
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| wazd | konttori: processing :) | 19:19 |
| konttori | RST38h: what did you want to ask? | 19:19 |
| wazd | konttori: yep, .deb is ready, thanks a lot! | 19:19 |
| konttori | wazd: oh, I forgot to tell you that you'll need also one more tool for windows. | 19:19 |
| konttori | the deb won't work yet. | 19:20 |
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| wazd | RST38h: I think color only | 19:21 |
| wazd | RST38h: Can't see proper template part for that :) | 19:21 |
| konttori | wazd: what are you trying to do? | 19:22 |
| wazd | konttori: RST38h asked if pannable area backgrounds can be skinned with wallpaper | 19:23 |
| konttori | yes, they can be skinned. | 19:23 |
| wazd | konttori: oh? :) | 19:23 |
| konttori | that's what the 4 wallpapers extracted from the backgrounds templates first row are for | 19:23 |
| Robin_Watts | Next problem: I can compile a C file using: "cc helloworld.c -o helloworld" and it works fine. | 19:23 |
| konttori | oh, pannable area. sorry | 19:23 |
| wazd | konttori: nono, not homescreen | 19:24 |
| konttori | nope, only color. I misunderstood you meant the home screen. | 19:24 |
| Robin_Watts | I can compile a C file to get the .o file using "cc -c helloworld.c -o helloworld.o" | 19:24 |
| konttori | so, pannable area is single color thing | 19:24 |
| Robin_Watts | My attempts to link using "ld helloworld.o -o helloworld -lc" work, but it then dies complaining it can't find /usr/lib/ld.so1 when I run it. Any clues ? | 19:25 |
| konttori | wazd: if you are testing on scratchbox, it's easiest that you don't try to use the deb, but instead just copy the THEMENAME/usr/themes/THEMENAME folder directly to the sb. | 19:27 |
| konttori | as the deb creation does not yet work on windows. | 19:27 |
| wazd | konttori: I'm not testing anything yet, cause I'm too dumb to set up scratchbox :) | 19:28 |
| wazd | konttori: Just drawing stuff :) | 19:28 |
| konttori | ok. cool. I'll check if I can fix the windows deb creation now. | 19:28 |
| wazd | konttori: that would be awesome :) | 19:29 |
| pupnik | my maemo vmware image is in a reboot loop | 19:33 |
| RST38h | Robin: Link with cc | 19:33 |
| RST38h | Robin: cc knows what to link against | 19:33 |
| Robin_Watts | Woo Hoo! | 19:34 |
| Robin_Watts | Thanks. | 19:34 |
| konttori | wazd: otoh, you won't need it really until you have an n900 | 19:35 |
| wazd | konttori: cool, that's a distant mark :D | 19:36 |
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| RST38h | This is how you hold an 4.3" phone in your hand: http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/4/2009/09/500x_htc-leo.jpg | 19:56 |
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| Stskeeps | portrait? | 19:56 |
| RST38h | Of course | 19:57 |
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| RST38h | rumor also has ti that this beast has got a capacitive multitouch display | 19:58 |
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| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, -1, Redundant. | 20:00 |
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| qwerty12_N810 | RST38h: But it appears to run Windows Mobile ;) | 20:01 |
| lcuk | RST38h, original ngage had 5" | 20:02 |
| RST38h | General: the size, the capacitive, or the multitouch, or is it -3? =) | 20:02 |
| wazd | Leo's hardware looks sexy | 20:02 |
| RST38h | qwerty: Yep. Crossing it out. | 20:02 |
| wazd | don't like that buttons row much, but anyway :) | 20:03 |
| RST38h | lcuk: No way??? The original ngage was a little 176x208 thing | 20:03 |
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| wazd | RST38h: he mean the device itself | 20:03 |
| RST38h | Ah :) | 20:03 |
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| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, calling a display "capacitive multitouch" is redundant. | 20:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | There aren't any non-multitouch capacitive displays. | 20:04 |
| RST38h | General: Well, G1 was capacitive with multitouch not supported by the OS | 20:04 |
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| RST38h | General: In this thing, HTC apparently shoehorned multitouch support onto WinMo | 20:04 |
| wazd | GeneralAntilles: resistive multitouch is okay? :) | 20:05 |
| glass | x6 isn't multitouch either(i think at least, on os levle) | 20:05 |
| glass | and mt is possible with resistive so.. | 20:06 |
| RST38h | yea, it is apparently generic S60e5, at least for now | 20:06 |
| luke-jr | GeneralAntilles: sure there is | 20:07 |
| luke-jr | multitouch is a software feature | 20:08 |
| luke-jr | capacitive is a hardware thing | 20:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | Multitouch is both. | 20:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | Resistive displays don't generally support multitouch. | 20:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | and it's not a software issue. | 20:08 |
| luke-jr | that's up to the software | 20:08 |
| RST38h | GA is correct, it is both | 20:08 |
| luke-jr | yes it is | 20:08 |
| Robin_Watts | The assembler in maemo doesn't know about NEON instructions, is that right ? | 20:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | No, it's not. | 20:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | You can fake it. | 20:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | But it's not really multitouch. | 20:08 |
| luke-jr | software exists to support multitouch on resistive touchscreens | 20:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | Two-touch is the term you're after. | 20:08 |
| luke-jr | w/o hardware support | 20:08 |
| RST38h | Robin: yes | 20:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | No, it doesn't. | 20:09 |
| luke-jr | o | 20:09 |
| luke-jr | it only works for 2? | 20:09 |
| RST38h | Robin: known problem, assembler is outdated | 20:09 |
| RST38h | Robin: What toolchain are you using btw? | 20:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | It only works when you add a touch point. | 20:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | Talk to lcuk about the specifics. | 20:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | But it isn't multitouch. | 20:09 |
| Robin_Watts | GeneralAntilles: Is it easy to update the assembler, or is that asking for a world of pain? | 20:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | Robin_Watts, talk to RST38h. | 20:09 |
| Robin_Watts | I've downloaded Maemo_Ubuntu_Intrepid_Desktop_SDK_Virtual_Image.zip and I'm using whatever the toolchain in that is :) | 20:09 |
| RST38h | Robin: run maemo-sdk and find out what toolchain you are using | 20:10 |
| Robin_Watts | sbox-DIABLO_ARMEL ? | 20:10 |
| RST38h | Robin: No | 20:10 |
| RST38h | Robin: From your x86 Linux prompt, run maemo-dsk | 20:10 |
| RST38h | sdk | 20:10 |
| RST38h | Robin: and press 3, then 2 | 20:10 |
| Robin_Watts | maemo-sdk: command not found | 20:11 |
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| RST38h | oh shit he is using goddamn sb1... | 20:15 |
| * RST38h facepalms | 20:15 | |
| RST38h | Anyways, there IS CodeSourcery 2009q1 ARM toolchain for Linux. Yours is probably something like 2007q3 | 20:16 |
| Robin_Watts | http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/maemo-dev-env-downloads.php was where I got it from I think. | 20:17 |
| RST38h | Yes, there is a certain problem with what you download there... | 20:17 |
| Robin_Watts | Sorry, have I done something monumentally dim ? | 20:17 |
| RST38h | No, you are not to blame | 20:17 |
| RST38h | The instructions there are tried and they work, but they are a little bit dated | 20:18 |
| RST38h | In any case, let me check for a moment if Nokia offers 2009q1 toolchain and how you can add it to sb1 | 20:18 |
| RST38h | You want Maemo4 or Maemo5? | 20:19 |
| Robin_Watts | cc --verbose says cs2005/q3.2 | 20:19 |
| Robin_Watts | I don't think I care - I just really want an emulated box on which I can compile c and test ARM v6/v7/NEON | 20:20 |
| lcuk | RST38h, original ngage 134mm long, 5.2inch http://www.gsmarena.com/nokia_n_gage-390.php | 20:20 |
| RST38h | lcuk: And some people still used it to call! =) | 20:21 |
| Robin_Watts | In the absence of having up to date hardware, this seems like a smart way to test my optimisations to theora :) | 20:21 |
| lcuk | Robin_Watts, from experience i just optimized like hell for the n8x0 and it worked a treat | 20:21 |
| lcuk | i got a more than usable experience there and i have a super experience here | 20:21 |
| RST38h | Robin: Ok. 2005 is *old* | 20:22 |
| glass | RST38h: it was a good upgrade over 3650, as it had just enough more mem to multitask properly | 20:22 |
| RST38h | Robin: I would suggest you to use sb2 SDK, but am kinda afraid to do so | 20:22 |
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| RST38h | glass: It was not a good upgrade of 3650. It had exactly the same hw, in an awkward case. | 20:22 |
| glass | RST38h: not exactly. it had more ram | 20:23 |
| RST38h | glass: <I actually liked my 3650, as weird as it sounds :)> | 20:23 |
| glass | RST38h: 3.4mb free vs 10mb+ | 20:23 |
| Robin_Watts | RST38h: Oh, is that within the same SDK I've already got ? | 20:23 |
| glass | i had a 3650 too | 20:23 |
| glass | liked the keypad | 20:23 |
| glass | freaky as that sounds | 20:23 |
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| RST38h | Robin: Nope. | 20:23 |
| RST38h | Robin: For SB2, you will have to scratch the whole thing, install MaemoSDK+ repo under your Linux and install SB2 from there | 20:24 |
| RST38h | Robin: But let us ignore that route for now | 20:24 |
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| Robin_Watts | Can I use sb-menu to install a new target maybe ? | 20:24 |
| RST38h | Robin: You can, but the idea is to install a new TOOLCHAIN | 20:25 |
| RST38h | Robin: Does sb-menu let you list available toolchains? | 20:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | Robin_Watts, you want Maemo 5 for NEON. | 20:25 |
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| Robin_Watts | "Install files to a target" | 20:25 |
| RST38h | General: He only needs a new toolchain that knows about neon | 20:25 |
| RST38h | General: The rest of his stuff should be fine | 20:26 |
| RST38h | Robin: No, wrong option | 20:26 |
| * ShadowJK wants a diablo toolchain that knows about vfp | 20:26 | |
| Robin_Watts | Show target shows DIABLO_ARMEL cs2005q3.1-glibc2.5-arm | 20:26 |
| Robin_Watts | and an equivalent DIABLO_X86 | 20:26 |
| RST38h | General: BTW, mark this URL: http://maemo.org/development/documentation/tutorials/maemo_4-0_tutorial/#Quick-Start | 20:26 |
| RST38h | General: This little example should ABSOLUTELY be in the Maemo5 docs | 20:27 |
| RST38h | General: Because 1) it is the shortest Maemo programming intro possible and 2) It does not make people think they have to use autotools | 20:27 |
| RST38h | Robin: Ok. Your target is what system you are targeting | 20:27 |
| Robin_Watts | The options in sb-menu are: Exit/Setup a target/Install files to a target/Extract Rootstraps/Activate a target/Reset a target/Remove a target/Show target information/kill all processes in scratchbox | 20:28 |
| RST38h | Robin: DIABLO_X86 means diablo running on your PC | 20:28 |
| Robin_Watts | yes. | 20:28 |
| RST38h | Robin; DIABLO_ARMEL means diablo running on your tablet | 20:28 |
| RST38h | Robin: Now, Diablo is a previous version of the OS, it ran on hardware that had no neon | 20:28 |
| Robin_Watts | urm... DIABLO running under emulation, surely? | 20:28 |
| RST38h | Robin: Yes. | 20:29 |
| RST38h | Robin: So, in order to at least have Neon support in the OS, you should start by getting FREMANTLE targets | 20:29 |
| Robin_Watts | ok... | 20:29 |
| RST38h | Robin; This is done by downloading and installing a Fremantle rootstrap | 20:30 |
| RST38h | Robin: And also the toolchain | 20:30 |
| Robin_Watts | - Maemo Fremantle 5 Beta SDK installable manually or with Eclipse wizard | 20:31 |
| Robin_Watts | according to the readme for the image I downloaded. | 20:31 |
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| RST38h | Robin:Oh | 20:33 |
| RST38h | Robin: Have you got an Ubuntu Linux machine nearby? | 20:33 |
| Robin_Watts | The virtual image I'm running is a Ubuntu Linux machine... | 20:33 |
| * RST38h isn't sure if e had to suggest this | 20:34 | |
| RST38h | Robin: Get rid of SB1. Install this: http://maemo-sdk.garage.maemo.org/install.html | 20:34 |
| Robin_Watts | (I've got a Windows XP machine in front of me. It's running VMware player with that virtual image. So in a window I have an ubuntu linux box. That's the only linux box to hand) | 20:34 |
| RST38h | Robin: Once you get it installed, run maemo-sdk and look at the options carefully | 20:35 |
| RST38h | Robin: It will let you install toolchains and rootstraps. You want Fremantle ARMEL rootstrap with the latest available toolchain (2007q3 if not 2009q1) | 20:35 |
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| RST38h | Robin: Also, SB2 lets you run commands inside itself by typing "sb2 <command>" | 20:36 |
| Robin_Watts | I'm tempted to use the Maemo SDK installation wizard in the Maemo ESBox environment to install the fremantle stuff. | 20:37 |
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| Robin_Watts | That should get me the appropriate target/toolchain, right ? | 20:38 |
| RST38h | Robin; Well, it will at least give you some control of the SB | 20:38 |
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| Robin_Watts | freemantle5.0beta1_armel 2009-04-28 | 20:54 |
| Robin_Watts | that one ? | 20:54 |
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| andre__ | isn't there a beta2?' | 20:56 |
| andre__ | and it should be fremantle, not freemantle :-P | 20:56 |
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| RST38h | Robin: SDK+ only got Beta1, so get it | 20:58 |
| RST38h | Robin: It will be sufficient for your purposes, hopefully | 20:58 |
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| *** Owner is now known as joppu | 21:05 | |
| joppu | Hello everyone! | 21:05 |
| joppu | So, where can I find the Fremantle GUI .psd? | 21:05 |
| joppu | There is no link | 21:05 |
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| keesj | what is psd? | 21:09 |
| joppu | keesj: photoshop file | 21:09 |
| keesj | thanks | 21:09 |
| keesj | you are searching for a theme or something right? | 21:09 |
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| wazd | joppu: there is a link, watch closer | 21:10 |
| joppu | wazd: They are all for the docs (pdfs), aren't they? | 21:10 |
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| wazd | joppu: https://garage.maemo.org/frs/download.php/6646/Maemo_5_GUI_0_9.zip | 21:11 |
| joppu | and where that was located? | 21:12 |
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| wazd | http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Human_Interface_Guidelines/GUI_Design_Template | 21:12 |
| joppu | Oh and thanks :) | 21:12 |
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| mojocafe | good evening everyone. can anyone tell me if java will work on MER !? I would like to know if i will be able to play the fulltilt poker client on my n800 :) | 21:47 |
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| luke-jr | mojocafe: no. | 21:48 |
| mojocafe | ah ok - sad. thanks luke :( | 21:49 |
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| b-man16 | mojocafe: you (might) if you install the ARM version of Java SE | 22:01 |
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| b-man16 | although the ARM version is still incomplete :( | 22:03 |
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| ShadowJK | question is if he's trying to run a Java SE program or if he's trying to run a JavaME program, or if he's trying to run a java applet | 22:04 |
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| javispedro | and if it is a java se app, wheter it is swt or swing | 22:07 |
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| lcuk | whatever happened to java is cross compatible and usable everywhere.. | 22:10 |
| lcuk | did that myth kinda fade | 22:10 |
| crashanddie_ | lcuk, no, still very much alive | 22:10 |
| luke-jr | never really was true | 22:10 |
| crashanddie_ | lcuk, however, you can't really expect an application written for 1.6 to run on 1.4 | 22:10 |
| crashanddie_ | unless you compile it for 1.4 | 22:10 |
| javispedro | lcuk: not, but as usual, you need to limit yourself to the lowest common denominator. | 22:11 |
| crashanddie_ | however, the 1.4 application will run without problem on 1.6 | 22:11 |
| luke-jr | nowadays you could possibly use GCJ to recompile it native | 22:11 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: Qt is more cross-compatible than Java ever was ;) | 22:11 |
| crashanddie_ | bollocks | 22:11 |
| lcuk | so its good but its shit and it good again | 22:11 |
| javispedro | luke-jr: no real benefit on gcj. | 22:11 |
| luke-jr | except maybe cell phones and webpages | 22:11 |
| crashanddie_ | luke-jr, one word | 22:12 |
| luke-jr | javispedro: of course there are multiple | 22:12 |
| crashanddie_ | luke-jr, endian | 22:12 |
| luke-jr | crashanddie_: what about endian? | 22:12 |
| luke-jr | even good C code doesn't care about endian | 22:12 |
| lcuk | as in, this conversation is endian cos its makin my head spin | 22:12 |
| crashanddie_ | my point exactly, Qt isn't good C code | 22:12 |
| luke-jr | crashanddie_: Qt isn't C code at all | 22:12 |
| javispedro | luke-jr: none at all. hotspot is faster, memory usage is only a bit higher than gcj. | 22:12 |
| luke-jr | javispedro: you're assuming a single x86 platform, which is totally NOT the point | 22:13 |
| lcuk | well, based on this representative sample of opinions and facts, im going to suggest the only practical thing i can | 22:13 |
| luke-jr | GCJ should compile Java bytecode to any native architecture | 22:13 |
| lcuk | javispedro, fancy helping me build a visual basic compiler :) | 22:13 |
| crashanddie_ | LMAO | 22:13 |
| crashanddie_ | lcuk, read my blog | 22:14 |
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| luke-jr | lcuk: I had that as a goal like 15 years ago | 22:14 |
| luke-jr | :p | 22:14 |
| lcuk | link it again and i will | 22:14 |
| crashanddie_ | lcuk, I'm getting massive amounts of grief over my last article | 22:14 |
| lcuk | luke-jr, liq* projects start as vb forms | 22:14 |
| crashanddie_ | lcuk, published it maybe 5 minutes ago, and already got 2 mails from my boss | 22:14 |
| lcuk | then link it | 22:14 |
| crashanddie_ | lcuk, fuck off then, use your head or history :P | 22:14 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: wtf | 22:14 |
| luke-jr | why | 22:15 |
| crashanddie_ | because it's the language he's most comfortable with, and thus prototypes the quickest | 22:15 |
| luke-jr | ... | 22:15 |
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| luke-jr | VB forms aren't really even a language | 22:16 |
| luke-jr | I'm probably the only person to ever edit them without the IDE | 22:16 |
| lcuk | luke-jr, go look in the source | 22:17 |
| lcuk | http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/source/l/liqpostcard/ | 22:17 |
| crashanddie_ | luke-jr, the tone doesn't suit you | 22:17 |
| lcuk | it always does - hes a heathen most of the time | 22:17 |
| javispedro | luke-jr: ah well, i didn't know gcj could target arm now | 22:17 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: the source doesn't answer what you edit them with | 22:17 |
| luke-jr | javispedro: GCJ is abstracted. Any language implemented in GCC can target any output. | 22:17 |
| lcuk | i dont have to prove that to you | 22:18 |
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| crashanddie__ | woa | 22:18 |
| lcuk | i simply stated i start most liq* projects as vb projects | 22:18 |
| luke-jr | in VB? | 22:18 |
| lcuk | prototype in windows, get the layouts correct | 22:18 |
| javispedro | luke-jr: but there's a runtime, even though I remember they used g++ one. | 22:18 |
| lcuk | i already know what code i want behind them | 22:18 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: why not Qt Designer? | 22:18 |
| lcuk | cos i cant build c++ code on tablet | 22:18 |
| lcuk | quickly | 22:19 |
| javispedro | (for exceptions, dynamic types, and all that) | 22:19 |
| crashanddie__ | luke-jr, because the world doesn't conform to a single language? | 22:19 |
| luke-jr | Qt Designer outputs an XML format... | 22:19 |
| lcuk | so? | 22:19 |
| luke-jr | you could parse it just as easily as VB6 forms | 22:19 |
| lcuk | i output C language directly from the vb ide | 22:19 |
| luke-jr | O.o | 22:19 |
| luke-jr | how? | 22:19 |
| lcuk | including full packaging info | 22:19 |
| lcuk | cos i wrote an addin which parses the forms and controls and makes everything i need | 22:20 |
| * luke-jr realizes converting VB code to Qt probably is trivial | 22:20 | |
| lcuk | as crash said, im comfortable there | 22:20 |
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| lcuk | i can do vb with my hands behind my back - so i use the ide to help :) | 22:21 |
| lcuk | computers are tools.. | 22:21 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: when I need to deal with VB, the first thing I do is write a Makefile to use WINE to build it in a UNIX fashon | 22:22 |
| luke-jr | then I rewrite it in C | 22:22 |
| luke-jr | or Qt | 22:22 |
| * javispedro did use vb6, and he remebers it was dead easy, buy the language and its quirks are the horror | 22:22 | |
| luke-jr | heh | 22:22 |
| * slonopotamus just doesn't touch vb | 22:22 | |
| crashanddie__ | best richard cheese cover: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ut_ndgSUaA8&feature=related | 22:22 |
| luke-jr | slonopotamus: I had to for work... | 22:22 |
| lcuk | first thing i do is make some basic layouts in vb - that gives me a project like this: http://liqbase.net/liqbase_media.php?username=lcuk&id=369 | 22:22 |
| lcuk | which i then go and make work (which ive been doing this weekend) | 22:23 |
| luke-jr | slonopotamus: the company bought some other company's product, and I was expected to modify it for their purposes | 22:23 |
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| * luke-jr ponders writing a simple WM for his N810 | 22:23 | |
| lcuk | javispedro, i dont touch the language at all, but it would be nice to one day allow direct code import too | 22:23 |
| slonopotamus | luke-jr, johnsq is already writing one | 22:24 |
| lcuk | luke-jr, theres plenty of wms already available | 22:24 |
| luke-jr | lcuk: none that suit the N810 ideally | 22:24 |
| luke-jr | slonopotamus: he is? | 22:24 |
| lcuk | luke, but it suits the stuff im writing | 22:24 |
| slonopotamus | luke-jr, he is | 22:24 |
| luke-jr | slonopotamus: ok. Qt4, right? | 22:24 |
| slonopotamus | luke-jr, plain X :) | 22:24 |
| luke-jr | pfft | 22:25 |
| * slonopotamus can't understand how big his monitor has to be in order to use xmonad | 22:25 | |
| javispedro | lcuk: direct code from vb? pfft. | 22:25 |
| lcuk | javispedro, its easier than you tihnk | 22:26 |
| javispedro | what is needed is a point-and-click guy | 22:26 |
| lcuk | a basic parser is a nice thing to have | 22:26 |
| lcuk | liqdesign | 22:26 |
| lcuk | drag drop resize move | 22:26 |
| lcuk | on device | 22:26 |
| javispedro | draw control, double click to edit "onClick" handler | 22:26 |
| crashanddie__ | X-Fade_, when do we get confirmation for people on the waiting list? | 22:26 |
| * lcuk nods | 22:26 | |
| javispedro | s/guy/gui | 22:26 |
| lcuk | liqdesign in the playground | 22:26 |
| crashanddie__ | X-Fade_, I can't book my accommodation until I get confirmation? | 22:26 |
| javispedro | no signals no custom widgets just for writing a handler | 22:27 |
| lcuk | theres more than onclick required | 22:27 |
| lcuk | but the principle is right javis | 22:27 |
| javispedro | lcuk: you'd like Mono. | 22:27 |
| lcuk | you need style and behaviour editing for each tile | 22:27 |
| lcuk | no, i wouldnt | 22:27 |
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| lcuk | well | 22:27 |
| lcuk | i like the language | 22:27 |
| lcuk | i dont like any ide ive seen | 22:28 |
| javispedro | i wonder why there's not a thriving Mono ecosystem on tablets? | 22:28 |
| lcuk | there probably is, have you seen the levels of cleanliness | 22:28 |
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| javispedro | not even mono runtime in extras | 22:30 |
| lcuk | javispedro, the lack of a strong non winforms widgetset upsets the cart for mono/.net | 22:30 |
| lcuk | most are done in winforms | 22:30 |
| javispedro | gtk# | 22:30 |
| lcuk | and if they would just work globally then it would be great | 22:30 |
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| lcuk | but most devs dont use gtk on windows | 22:31 |
| lcuk | they use normal winforms - cos the ide works with it | 22:31 |
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| crashanddie__ | gtk sucks for multi-platform stuff | 22:31 |
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| javispedro | ah, well. | 22:31 |
| lcuk | its not bad in windows | 22:31 |
| lcuk | its just not the default | 22:31 |
| lcuk | and when you come across a problem in windows you just go banging the winapi | 22:32 |
| javispedro | lcuk: i consider monodevelop "enough point-and-clicky". | 22:32 |
| * lcuk nods | 22:32 | |
| jaska | lcuk: banging winapi is closely related to banging head to a wall | 22:33 |
| * lcuk firmly agrees | 22:33 | |
| lcuk | there are still times tho that its the only real way to get things done | 22:34 |
| crashanddie__ | click-o-dromes are horrible pieces of technology | 22:34 |
| lcuk | rich text support and printing you have to talk to win for | 22:34 |
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| crashanddie__ | bye crashanddie_ | 22:34 |
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| lcuk | crashanddie, im not gonna find your blog in the 1000s of links i have here | 22:36 |
| crashanddie | though | 22:36 |
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| crashanddie | s/th/t/ | 22:36 |
| infobot | crashanddie meant: tough | 22:36 |
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| RST38h | heya javis | 22:47 |
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| andre__ | gnarf. why doesn't everybody have exactly my definition of "common sense"? world would be so much easier... | 22:49 |
| RST38h | andre: Start by adjusting your own and they will come... | 22:50 |
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| RST38h | "Using data from Facebook, two students in an MIT class on ethics and law on the electronic frontier made a striking discovery: just by looking at a person's online friends, they could predict whether the person was gay." | 22:52 |
| RST38h | (bonus points for calling the project "Gaydar" of course =)) | 22:52 |
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| AStorm | lol | 22:53 |
| AStorm | that's simple really | 22:53 |
| AStorm | you can train a neural network or other classifier | 22:53 |
| andre__ | is there an app that simply calculates the percentage value so i can run it automatically on all facebook accounts? | 22:53 |
| derf | AStorm: What are you using for training data? | 22:53 |
| AStorm | known gays? | 22:53 |
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| AStorm | and known non-gays | 22:54 |
| AStorm | you can also have a more granular categories | 22:54 |
| RST38h | AStorm: You can only train the network if 1) you have got enough training data and 2) there is anything at all to base distinction upon | 22:54 |
| AStorm | known gays, suspected gays, suspected hetero, known hetero | 22:54 |
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| Robin_Watts | cs2007q3 is the toolchain for fremantle5.0beta1. | 22:54 |
| AStorm | RST38h: ANYTHING will work as a classification factor ;p | 22:54 |
| AStorm | the more data, the better | 22:54 |
| RST38h | AStorm: As? | 22:54 |
| Robin_Watts | it looks vaguely like that isn't up to date enough either ;( | 22:54 |
| RST38h | Robin: Try if it supports Neon | 22:55 |
| AStorm | 1) friends, 2) colors, 3) page text, 4) frequency of updates 5)... | 22:55 |
| RST38h | Let me see....Anyone who updates his facebook page often is gay? =) | 22:55 |
| AStorm | have some levels of recursion | 22:55 |
| Robin_Watts | it's faulting my NEON assembly. but that might be my assembly at fault :) | 22:55 |
| AStorm | RST38h: don't know. It's possible. | 22:55 |
| RST38h | Only possible if there is a distinction. | 22:55 |
| RST38h | Otherwose, garbage in => garbage out | 22:56 |
| AStorm | yes, and neural network will find that distinction if it's there | 22:56 |
| AStorm | that's why you need fairly sizable training sample | 22:56 |
| RST38h | Yep | 22:56 |
| RST38h | But I guess they can get that | 22:56 |
| AStorm | sure. | 22:56 |
| RST38h | Does facebook profile have an explicit field about this gay/hetero business? | 22:56 |
| Robin_Watts | ooh, it's not faulting *all* the assembly. It's probably my fault :) | 22:56 |
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| AStorm | RST38h: no idea? I don't even have an account | 22:57 |
| RST38h | Robin: You do understand that it will not do AR SDT assembly? | 22:57 |
| RST38h | ARM | 22:57 |
| RST38h | AStorm: Neither do I | 22:57 |
| RST38h | AStorm: It feels too much like buying an iphone | 22:57 |
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| Robin_Watts | RST38h: I am familiar with gccs broken assembly syntax, yes. | 22:57 |
| RST38h | Robin: Of course, GCC people will not agree with you :) | 22:58 |
| AStorm | Robin_Watts: broken? | 22:58 |
| AStorm | it's fine AT&T syntax. | 22:58 |
| AStorm | :> | 22:58 |
| AStorm | not all that problematic | 22:59 |
| RST38h | Robin: http://sourceware.org/ml/binutils/2006-04/msg00001.html | 22:59 |
| AStorm | except argument order, which tends to cause brainfarts | 22:59 |
| RST38h | Robin: Looks like Neon has been added in 2006 | 22:59 |
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| Robin_Watts | Ah. -mfpu= neon might have fixed it :) | 23:02 |
| Robin_Watts | and it ran without crashing. Woo Hoo! Thanks all. | 23:03 |
| RST38h | You are welcome, deposit money into the CDROM slot. | 23:03 |
| b-man16 | lol | 23:04 |
| AStorm | we accept credit cards and beer donations | 23:05 |
| AStorm | no paypal or cheques | 23:05 |
| johnx | mornin' all | 23:05 |
| AStorm | ;> | 23:05 |
| AStorm | hello | 23:05 |
| RST38h | hello johnx | 23:05 |
| * AStorm considers ordering N900 from UK | 23:05 | |
| AStorm | for estimated 40 quid savings | 23:06 |
| AStorm | but there's nobody that sends to Poland yet | 23:06 |
| RST38h | Better order from the US | 23:06 |
| AStorm | nah | 23:06 |
| AStorm | from US I'll have to pay the tax and duties | 23:06 |
| RST38h | But not from the UK? | 23:06 |
| AStorm | from UK I'll pay the lower UK tax | 23:06 |
| johnx | did they show a pic of the UK keyboard yet> | 23:06 |
| AStorm | and no duties (UE) | 23:06 |
| AStorm | :D | 23:06 |
| RST38h | AStorm: Why not ask someone traveling to US to bring it back? | 23:06 |
| AStorm | johnx: it's apparently the same as US | 23:06 |
| AStorm | RST38h: you volunteering? | 23:07 |
| johnx | really. that's an interesting choice | 23:07 |
| johnx | AStorm, will you be at the summit? | 23:07 |
| AStorm | johnx: why would it be different? | 23:07 |
| AStorm | johnx: which one and where and when? | 23:07 |
| AStorm | :) | 23:07 |
| RST38h | AStorm: I would, but not traveling to Poland any time soon | 23:07 |
| johnx | maemo summit 2009 amsterdam | 23:07 |
| AStorm | RST38h: doesn't really matter | 23:07 |
| AStorm | johnx: hmm, when? | 23:07 |
| johnx | oct 9 - 11 | 23:08 |
| johnx | and UK and US desktop keyboards are a little different | 23:08 |
| johnx | for not very good reasons, I'm sure | 23:08 |
| AStorm | hmmm | 23:08 |
| AStorm | huh | 23:09 |
| AStorm | I'd like to see the pics of various layouts | 23:09 |
| johnx | also: not all keyboard layouts will feature all 4 arrow keys | 23:09 |
| AStorm | maybe Nokia guys could do at least that for us? | 23:09 |
| AStorm | johnx: that I knwo | 23:09 |
| AStorm | *know | 23:09 |
| wazd | <lcuk mode on>my onscreen keyboard looks so great that you'll forget about hardware keyboard :D </lcuk mode off> :) | 23:09 |
| johnx | just making sure you don't end up with something you hate | 23:09 |
| * lcuk hates osk | 23:09 | |
| * lcuk hated having to make one | 23:10 | |
| * lcuk declares n800 users heathens | 23:10 | |
| RST38h | wazd: Does it work as him? | 23:10 |
| wazd | RST38h: I mean skin that I've made :) | 23:10 |
| wazd | RST38h: it's ordinary kb :) | 23:10 |
| wazd | dunno where to test it though | 23:10 |
| AStorm | I wonder if N97 kb can work as a reference | 23:11 |
| AStorm | or are they different? | 23:11 |
| RST38h | different | 23:11 |
| AStorm | drat | 23:11 |
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| johnx | quite different | 23:11 |
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| RST38h | "In the fMRI scan, it looked like the dead salmon was actually thinking about the pictures it had been shown." | 23:25 |
| derf | It is notoriously difficult to tell anything from an fMRI at all. | 23:26 |
| SpeedEvil | Context is the key. | 23:26 |
| SpeedEvil | Dead salmon are probably not thinking much. | 23:26 |
| SpeedEvil | fMRI is sort of like looking at the blinking lights on a computer, and deriving what's happening. | 23:27 |
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| mavhc | more likely that salmon are immortal | 23:29 |
| SpeedEvil | That's one hypothesis. | 23:30 |
| RST38h | SpeedEvil: You will be surprised... | 23:30 |
| RST38h | http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/09/fmrisalmon/ | 23:30 |
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| SpeedEvil | Why? It's a noise filtering game as much medical imaging is. | 23:33 |
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| AStorm | hehehe | 23:33 |
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| AStorm | SpeedEvil: except those blinking lights are ultra-low magnetic fluctuations | 23:35 |
| AStorm | amplified using noisy amplifiers | 23:36 |
| jaska | zombie fish | 23:36 |
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| * SpeedEvil looked into making a MRI. For single pixel wood moisture scanning. | 23:42 | |
| SpeedEvil | Complex - even for one pixel | 23:42 |
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| jorma | any change uae could work on the n900? | 23:45 |
| RST38h | probably. why? | 23:45 |
| jorma | 'cause playing amiga version of the ultima 4 on n900 would be uber cool | 23:47 |
| jorma | some forum posts suggested that uae was too much for the n810 hardware and last uae posts date back to 2008 or something | 23:48 |
| AStorm | jorma: it might | 23:48 |
| AStorm | esp. if someone moves gfx code to DSP | 23:48 |
| RST38h | ae will work on n810 | 23:48 |
| AStorm | and sound | 23:48 |
| RST38h | forget about dsp | 23:48 |
| jaska | u4 isnt exactly heavy | 23:48 |
| AStorm | yes, but sound and gfx emu is | 23:48 |
| RST38h | dsp is a very specialized chip, it won't do your gfx | 23:48 |
| AStorm | :) | 23:48 |
| AStorm | it *will* do the kind of computation UAE uses for gfx | 23:49 |
| AStorm | it's a SIMD chip. | 23:49 |
| RST38h | Ok, try implementing Amiga graphics driver on a DSP | 23:49 |
| AStorm | hey, I analyzed UAE code a few times in the past | 23:49 |
| AStorm | I know what it does. | 23:49 |
| RST38h | BTW, do you mean TI DSP inside OMAP3, Neon, or the SIMD ARM extensions? | 23:50 |
| AStorm | sure, not exactly easy, but possible | 23:50 |
| AStorm | TI DSP inside OMAP 2 | 23:50 |
| RST38h | ok | 23:50 |
| AStorm | don't have the OMAP3 one specs | 23:50 |
| RST38h | Then it is somewhat hopeless | 23:50 |
| lcuk | RST38h, dsp can do your graphics, its just not initially configured to do so | 23:51 |
| RST38h | In fact, even using Neon is gonna be hopeless because in the last moment you suddenly find that Neon does not do exactly what you need | 23:51 |
| AStorm | RST38h: I do know that TI OMAP2 DSP will do scaling easily | 23:51 |
| lcuk | is neon an actual copro, or just a new set of chipops | 23:51 |
| RST38h | lcuk: It can, except that you need to transfer data to the dsp, let it run, then transfer data out | 23:51 |
| AStorm | and blitting | 23:51 |
| RST38h | lcuk: And DSP instruction set does not make graphics easier | 23:51 |
| AStorm | that is, simulating Copper chip. | 23:51 |
| lcuk | RST38h, if that data is already in memory and has to end back up in memory | 23:51 |
| AStorm | sure it does | 23:51 |
| AStorm | we need fast memory moves | 23:51 |
| RST38h | AStorm: Ehehe | 23:51 |
| lcuk | what does it matter which core does the work | 23:51 |
| AStorm | DSP can do this. | 23:51 |
| lcuk | never said easier | 23:52 |
| luke-jr | AStorm: OMAP 2 DSP specs are open or not? | 23:52 |
| SpeedEvil | It can do results to framebuffer though | 23:52 |
| RST38h | AStorm: Let us now see what is involved in Amiga graphics emulation =) | 23:52 |
| lcuk | it can be used as a copro | 23:52 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: available, yes. | 23:52 |
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| luke-jr | AStorm: open or NDA? | 23:52 |
| RST38h | AStorm: You have got up to 4 bitplanes, i.e. areas of memory. | 23:52 |
| ShadowJK | lcuk, it executes in parallell with the ARM core, cache and memory is coherent, the arm core issues instructions to it. | 23:52 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: I've read the instruction guide some time ago | 23:52 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: google should find it, so not NDA | 23:52 |
| ShadowJK | atleast that's my understanding | 23:52 |
| lcuk | SpeedEvil, we think in the omap2420 the dsp can write to the super fast framebuffer mem, i dont see why that owuld be different now | 23:52 |
| RST38h | AStorm: You read data from all 4, in 32bit increments if you wish, and combine every 4 corresponding bits into a single index | 23:52 |
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| AStorm | RST38h: so? | 23:53 |
| AStorm | that's one SIMD op. | 23:53 |
| lcuk | ShadowJK, mmm? the dsp can be started, and the cpu can continue doing whatever it needs | 23:53 |
| RST38h | let us continue | 23:53 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: http://www.ti.com/sc/docs/psheets/man_dsp.htm | 23:53 |
| felipec | DSP can do fast memory moves? not any faster than ARM | 23:53 |
| RST38h | Astorm: That is 4 memory reads + one SIMD op that you probably do not have in the DSP | 23:53 |
| lcuk | no1 ever said it could do it faster | 23:53 |
| AStorm | felipec: true | 23:53 |
| felipec | they both use the same MMU | 23:54 |
| RST38h | AStorm: But let us continue | 23:54 |
| lcuk | but it can do it at same time as the cpu is doing other stuff | 23:54 |
| AStorm | felipec: also true, but the CPU can then do other emulation | 23:54 |
| RST38h | AStorm: Once you get the index, you are supposed to do one more memory read for palette lookup and finally you can pump your pixel to the screen | 23:54 |
| AStorm | RST38h: aleo easy, do a memory copy to the framebuffer | 23:54 |
| jorma | forget that i asked ;) | 23:55 |
| felipec | AStorm: you mean let the DSP do the memory move while ARM is doing something else? | 23:55 |
| RST38h | Yes, of course, except that you are doing it in the DSP, aren't you? | 23:55 |
| RST38h | AStorm: AND, finally | 23:55 |
| RST38h | AStorm: On every scanline, you are supposed to process copper list and make modifications to the palette and plane addresses | 23:55 |
| AStorm | luke-jr: blah, not there | 23:56 |
| AStorm | I found it though. | 23:56 |
| RST38h | AStorm: So, let us see, 5 memory reads (one has a chance to get cached but not really), weird bit rearrangement operation, and one memory write | 23:56 |
| AStorm | RST38h: that is true | 23:56 |
| AStorm | RST38h: 5 LOCAL memory reads. | 23:57 |
| RST38h | AStorm: You can see that your biggerst problem is not even math but the memory accesses | 23:57 |
| RST38h | AStorm: Not local at all | 23:57 |
| AStorm | yes, it's one fetch | 23:57 |
| RST38h | AStorm: Each bit plane is 640x480/8=38kB | 23:57 |
| AStorm | you don't have to process whole bitplane at once | 23:57 |
| RST38h | AStorm: So your bit planes will be at least 38kB apart. Not local. | 23:57 |
| RST38h | you have ot process it line by line | 23:58 |
| AStorm | correct | 23:58 |
| AStorm | since DSP can do DMA fetches | 23:58 |
| AStorm | CPU can in the meantime do other computation | 23:58 |
| RST38h | from 4 locations? | 23:58 |
| AStorm | yes, 4 DMA fetches. | 23:58 |
| RST38h | and what will the cpu do if it needs to read memory? | 23:59 |
| AStorm | it will have to wait until the next scanline. | 23:59 |
| felipec | and keep in mind that most DSP operations will require cache flushes | 23:59 |
| AStorm | probably | 23:59 |
| RST38h | but you are supposed to be emulating the rest of the system :) | 23:59 |
| AStorm | felipec: ? | 23:59 |
| AStorm | why | 23:59 |
| AStorm | RST38h: yes, but the rest of the system is what? :) | 23:59 |
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