IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2009-09-11

javispedroSpeedEvil: SDXC uses exFAT.00:00
SpeedEvilI thought SDXC was simply a software mod00:00
SpeedEviloh - that00:00
SpeedEvilNot if you format it ext200:00
SpeedEvilor ubifs00:00
javispedroubifs doesn't work over the block layer I think00:00
SpeedEvilHmm - true.00:01
javispedrobut I get the point :)00:01
SpeedEvilI want SD raw.00:01
SpeedEvilBut similarly - that's unlikely.00:01
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SpeedEvilHowever - if there is a linux kernel module for it - surely the users can simply install it.00:02
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SpeedEvilEven if nokia cannot distribute it00:02
javispedroSee OGG situation.00:02
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SpeedEvil(assuming the users are willing to face the wrath of the SD patent attorneys.00:02
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MikycolSorry, My ask is very stupid!00:04
javispedrothe answer is: "Not out of the box."00:05
SpeedEvilMikycol: no - it's not.00:05
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MikycolBye at all. Thank you :)00:10
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luke-jrSpeedEvil: SD raw?00:21
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SpeedEvilluke-jr: SD without the remapping layer - so you can do your own wear levelling algorithms.00:21
luke-jrSpeedEvil: it exists?00:22
HeckleJecklewhich sdk would one use for os 2007 hacked edition00:22
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HeckleJecklegregale or bora?00:22
zerojayGood question.00:23
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SpeedEvilluke-jr: for example - I mean so that if you want to write 128K - which you know to be the eraseblock size - you can simply write that block - and not potentially be split over multiple erase blocks due to wear leveling that's concealing the real architecture of the chip. (as of course a single erase takes 1/nth the time)00:24
luke-jror you can use a filesystem designed for it00:25
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SpeedEvilYes - rather than the firmware in the card trying to second guess what you want00:28
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javispedroI've been always bothered about the wear leveling algo in SD cards00:37
javispedrohow does it know "free blocks"?00:37
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javispedroIf I write each and every block of the card, then repeteadly write block X, how is the card going to know which blocks I am not using to redirect the writes to those?00:40
javispedroor will it start just moving blocks around00:41
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SpeedEvilI think the fun part is - it varies by maker.00:43
javispedroat least SSDs are starting to implement TRIM.00:44
SpeedEvilThough AIUI there are a few SD card controllers that go in most00:44
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chxjavispedro: you can't write each and every block in a card00:44
chxjavispedro: there always are spares00:44
chxjavispedro: the capacity is bigger than advertised00:44
javispedrochx: not much space for wear leveling then :S00:45
SpeedEvilyeah - but the same question arises00:45
chxof course00:46
chxbut note that the newer SD cards simply do not care that much00:46
chxat the price point they are, expecting any longevity...00:46
javispedroI know that some SSDs are implementing FAT parsers in firmware (thus "know" free blocks)00:47
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javispedrobut the situation in SD cards is pretty unclear for me00:47
chxmost SSDs are getting NTFS arent they00:47
javispedrochx: yeah, actually, I think it was a NTFS parser :P00:47
derfAt the very least the card will do static wear leveling.00:48
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derfFor some types of cards, you can only read from a block so many times, before it has to be copied to another block.00:49
javispedrosee the "Samsung" part00:49
javispedro(it talks about the drive reading NTFS's free space bitmap)00:49
derfSo it actually does just "copy blocks around".00:49
SpeedEvilderf: reading also wears flash00:50
SpeedEvilas well as writing00:50
SpeedEviland reading also fades writes somewhat00:50
derfBut really, you can erase a block like a million times before it dies.00:52
derfA million should be enough for anybody.00:52
SpeedEvilAlso - 'dies' is somewhat misleading00:52
SpeedEvilAs its bit-error rate rises.00:52
SpeedEvilWith the right algorithms you can cope with even - say - 10% bit errors00:53
javispedroso, the conclusions is that SD cards are either: just moving blocks around, or they don't care at all about wear leveling.00:53
SpeedEvilThere are some _very_ simple algorithms that you can use.00:54
derfWell, no. If you're using jffs2, it will do dynamic wear leveling as well, where it explicitly manages erase blocks.00:54
javispedrobut jffs2, like ubifs, can't be used over a sd card (because it's not "sd raw" ;) )00:55
woglindejavispedro right00:55
SpeedEvilFor example - every hundred thousandth write - you move block k to free block n, and free block n+1 to k, and increment k00:55
woglindeubifs works only on internal stuff00:55
SpeedEvilThis shuffles the data round and only means you need to store one number for your 'wear leveling'00:55
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javispedroSpeedEvil, again, my initial question: what is a free block? how does the card know that?00:56
SpeedEviljavispedro: a spare block not exposed to the OS00:56
javispedroah, ok00:57
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SpeedEvilSo you have a band of - say 1000 - 'free' blocks that migrates across the device - displacing a datablock each move00:58
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javispedroyou may actually not need the counter, just reassign a block from the spares as soon as a block can't be written without uncorrectable errors00:59
SpeedEvilThat means you need a block lookup table.01:00
javispedronot really "wear" leveling, but hey ;P01:00
SpeedEvilI was wondering if you could avoid that01:00
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Corsachmhm, flash support in n8x0 and n900 is provided through some standard debian packages or is it some really proprietary support?01:17
luke-jrCorsac: uh, standard Debian doesn't support Flash AFAIK01:18
Robot101Corsac: there aren't arm flash packages free to download, so it's from a deal with adobe and nokia01:18
Corsacyeah ok01:18
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luke-jrRobot101: Gnash?01:19
Robot101like, real adobe flash for arm01:19
Robot101takes ££01:20
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zerojayLicensing is fun.01:21
zerojayIn a brick-to-the-face sort of way.01:21
Corsachmhm, weird01:22
Corsacdropbear doesnt support ssh keys?01:23
CorsacI thought I was using that once in a while01:23
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javispedroit does, only in its own weird format01:25
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merkuralex_brick-to-the-face!?!?!?! wheres mine! i am missing out on the fun man! SOMEONE THROUGH A BRICK AT ME!!!01:25
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* SpeedEvil throws a brick at merkuralex. (1*8 red lego techniks)01:26
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merkuralex_nice one01:26
zerojayI don't know, man.01:30
zerojayEver step on a Lego left on the floor with bare feet at 3am?01:31
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SpeedEvilzerojay: I see your lego, and raise you DIP32 EPROMs.01:33
SpeedEvilDIP40 I could never get all the pins in.01:33
jaskahmm.. i need to figure out what sort of chip it was that i once stepped on01:36
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SpeedEvil(32 pin 0.1" seperated - two rows of 16 0.6" apart)01:36
jaskaPGA, think it wa some dsp01:37
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jaskaso a few hundred pins01:37
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jaskanah.. less than a hundred, it was some early tms320xx01:39
SpeedEvilyeah - it's hard to get those all in though01:39
jaskait didnt feel too good tho01:39
JoeBrainIf there are enough pins does it end up being like a bed of nails?01:40
SpeedEvilthe skin pressure to puncture is - say 1kg/pin01:40
* zerojay folds.01:41
SpeedEvilYou can quite easily do 30Kg if you don't step carefully01:41
SpeedEvilbut - say - 256 pins - requires you to jump on it01:41
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* JoeBrain goes to build a bed of chips01:48
SpeedEvilCheese and onion flavour?01:48
JoeBrainI was thinking salt & vinegar, but I may reconsider01:48
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* wazd_ is happy about Motorola comeback02:16
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chxwazd_: hm?02:22
chxwazd_: Motorola comeback?02:22
chxwazd_: what happened?02:22
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MaceN8x0ran out of true blood episodes02:24
MaceN8x0season 2 is pretty good compared to 102:24
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javispedrostlc45xx seems to be going to disappear from staging in 2.6.3302:43
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JoeBrainIs that the droid i'm looking for?02:43
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javispedrobitrot yet again02:46
javispedroor is the prism54 usable already?02:46
JoeBrainThe moto thing02:46
chxwazd_: and that will bring back Motorola from the grave?02:47
chxwazd_: one Android phone among the coming multitude?02:48
wazd_chx: well, at least it's Moto build quality :)02:48
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wazd_chx: they had awesome hardware and totally lame software02:48
JoeBrainWell they had the shotgun approach & they only really focused on hardware, so something was bound to stick02:49
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chxI thought RAZR over, Moto ovre.02:49
wazd_chx: no, they had pretty descent models without razr02:49
wazd_chx: my gf still has Slvr l7, it looks like new after 3 years02:50
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wazd_and same uber-lame software :D02:50
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rektidethe moto doesnt seem to have any kind of advantage in the raw specs department02:52
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rektidefrankly its either the powervr sgx chip or its crap, until the next powervr chip02:54
rektidecurse amd for having seemingly bowed out of this field02:54
zerojayMoto was terrible.02:54
zerojayA lot of their phones had massive memory leaks.02:54
zerojayRAZR was okay... but they just rode that thing for far too long.02:55
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JoeBrainyeah after the original sleek cellphone StarTAC & then the razr, no new ideas02:57
JoeBrainI think the pebl was okay-ish, but by then it was too little too late02:57
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wazd_again, software was awful03:00
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wazd_you can't sell a phone that has almost no software :)03:00
zerojayYeah...they weren't very good at software.03:00
wazd_even nokia's s300 was more stable and functionaly wise03:00
JoeBrainlol yeah03:01
JoeBrainIts funny they didnt figure it out even immediately when the iPhone was released03:01
wazd_pebl was awesome, one of the phones that I just wanted with raw feeling :)03:01
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wazd_but I was too young to buy such an expensive toy :)03:02
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zerojayJoeBrain: Moto was dead long before Apple even thought of bringing the iPhone out.03:03
JoeBrainno argument here03:03
JoeBrainbut by they I include the other OEMs03:04
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wazd_moto even had it's own linux platform, but again got it wrong way03:04
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rektideeven android doesnt know whether it wants to be a flexible linux platform or a phone platform03:07
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rektidemaemo is definitely the best in that regard03:07
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zerojayI wouldn't call Android flexible whatsoever.03:08
zerojayAndroid's pretty much one step away from being just as locked down as iPhone really.03:08
ShellEvilThere is a wide view of what's locked down though.03:09
fiferboy_timeless_mbp: countdown-home 0.4-5 (with localized date and time) should be in extras-devel now :)03:09
ShellEvilFrom 'As long as one core runs non-free code' all the way up to rational people, and through 'But I can install games'03:10
wazd_fiferboy: insomnia? :D03:10
fiferboy_wazd_: It's 8 PM :P03:12
fiferboy_wazd_: What's your excuse?03:12
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JoeBrainAs locked down vs. usability though :\03:13
wazd_fiferboy: well, deadline :)03:13
fiferboy_wazd_: Ah, understandable03:13
JoeBrainI mean I understand the downside & upsides of flexibility, but if I'm only going to own ONE device at a time03:13
Midlet-i dont know if this is the correct channel to ask this in but is it possible to make an internet connection without notifying the user , i know its impossible in python s60, i dont know about j2me yet, if also no is it possible in c++ ?03:14
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ShellEvilOn what platform?03:32
ShellEvilPersonally - if yes - that's a bug.03:33
eichihello guys. can i install the bootloader with the flasher too?03:34
wazd_Midlet-: Are you trying to write some sneaky virus or something? :)03:34
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Midlet-wazd_ no everything that sounds mallicious is mallicious im just a researching03:37
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eichisorry, i mean the bootmenu03:37
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zerojayMidlet-: You would see the icon at the top of the screen show you there's a connection underway.03:44
Midlet-zerojay i understand , but my question is something else03:46
Midlet-and ive found the answers03:46
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JoeBrainSo does everyone have a nifty new Nokia tablet? :)03:49
JoeBrainAh the N9000 isnt out yet :(03:49
wazd_JoeBrain: n9000 isn't for sure :D03:50
zerojayWon't be long now.03:51
SpeedEvilIt's not a tablet - it's a phone03:52
SpeedEvilor something03:52
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JoeBraincellular tablet03:55
JoeBrainportable cellular tablet device assistant03:55
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Pioportable cellular mobile tablet digital assistant device03:58
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SpeedEvilGet a powerful touch screen computer with excellent communications capabilities.03:58
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SpeedEvilsays the UK site03:58
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JoeBraintouch screen communication computer it is then..04:02
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ShadowJKSpeedEvil: iirc a write the size of eraseblock on SD will always end up in just one eraseblock04:40
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ShadowJKjavipedro: SD card has more blocks than it lets you know it has. iirc when you write to a block (whether it's full eraseblock_size size or smaller), it takes the next block from "unused" pool, erases and writes, puts the old block onto unused pool04:45
ShellEvilShadowJK: I need to do more research04:46
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ShadowJKso yeah, logcal blocks that never get overwritten aren't part of the wear leveling on SD at all04:46
SpeedEvilI'm more interested in the fragmented write case04:47
SpeedEvilShadowJK: is this supposition - or are there actual details somewhere on schems?04:48
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ShadowJKthe logfs author posted a description to lkml04:50
ShadowJKmost SD implement "SmartMedia"04:50
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zerojay :)04:53
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* GAN800 yawns05:04
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GAN800Too much driving today.05:04
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zerojayGAN800: Where to/from?05:33
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GAN800zerojay, school to home to the Apple Store in Timbuktu to home to the airport to home.05:48
GAN800Close to 400 miles.05:48
GAN800But my G5 has now been sent back to the mothership.05:48
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thuxGAN800: 400 miles? what kind of car?05:52
SpeedEvil np: The Proclaimers - I would walk 500 miles.06:00
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GAN800thux, 2004 Camry 4-banger.06:13
GAN800Only used about 60% of an 18.5 US gallon tank.06:13
thuxthen it was long drive :)06:14
thuxi got toyota too06:14
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* timeless_mbp grumbles07:32
timeless_mbpwhy can't i install gpodder?07:32
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timeless_mbpkonttori: i can't install appinstaller07:33
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SudhirHello guys. Could someone help me to solve problem? I want to block internet access of some of my application in n810 for the timebeing, but do not with to uninstall those. Is there any way to do it?07:38
timeless_mbpas ipfw/ipchains would?07:38
johnxSudhir, not easily. how familiar are you with linux firewalls?07:40
Sudhirtimeless_mbp : isnt it at too low level?07:40
Sudhirnot much, but I can learn very quickly.07:40
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Sudhirjohnx : can one use firewalls to block the internet access of only some of the applications?07:41
johnxSudhir, timeless is right. iptables is the way it's done on linux. I don't really know of something else that would do the trick.07:41
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johnxyou can use iptables to block specific protocols07:41
johnxmay I ask why you want to do this?07:41
GAN800There's a scratch in the faceplate paint where I slide my thumb to scroll. :(07:42
timeless_mbphe wants to run windows :)07:42
Sudhirjohnx : I am customizing my n810. I do not use all of the app all the time. so thought if i can write some script and then tell it i want to start or stop using so and so application.07:43
johnxso why do you want the apps running but unable to connect to the internet?07:44
Sudhirjohnx: not running, just want to make sure that it does not get connected without my script allowing it.07:44
johnxso why not make sure it doesn't run at all?07:45
johnxso is this to meet some kind of security requirements? or to save battery power?07:46
GAN800Mer is going to take 2 years to become day-to-day usable, apparently.07:47
timeless_mbp"Owner match"07:47
timeless_mbpGAN800: depressed/07:47
johnxtimeless_mbp, that's pretty cool :)07:47
johnxGAN800, source of that?07:47
GAN800Actually, that's a good question disguised as a troll. When IS it going to be a viable Diablo alternative?07:47
GAN800johnx, random fool on Talk. Forgot the giant sarcasm tags.07:48
timeless_mbphas anyone categorized what's missing?07:48
johnxGAN800, we have an internal version that works perfectly, but when you troll we put off the release by a couple months07:48
timeless_mbpiirc it needs ~6 more control panel applets07:49
GAN800I need buttons that work as expected plus reasonably similar out-of-box functionality.07:50
* timeless_mbp goes back to changing the labels on all the buttons07:50
GAN800Actually, I may need nm to die before I can use it.07:50
johnxGAN800, and be replaced with?07:51
timeless_mbpjohnx: a lump of coal07:51
GAN800johnx, there's the rub.07:51
timeless_mbpslightly more reliable and easier to handle07:51
GAN800Anything is better than nm.07:51
timeless_mbpwe can probably write a ui using the toolkit i've used :)07:51
GAN800I'd even settle for a dried dog turd.07:51
timeless_mbpit'd be better than nm07:51
timeless_mbpjohnx: see, just like my lump of coal :)07:52
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* timeless_mbp pokes Stskeeps 07:53
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* Stskeeps needs coffee07:54
* timeless_mbp needs feedback07:54
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* LinuxCode needs his proper inet+ phone line back07:57
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User493hey if you guys are bored try facebook zombies game:D -
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pupnik_   useful?08:14
johnxso looks like that moto cliq thing might go for $0 w/ 2 year contract on t-mo08:14
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pupnik_is that good?08:28
pupnik_hey i just figured out how to get around the sgx texture-upload limitation for snes08:29
johnxwell, it's what I was predicting google was trying to do from the onset: take over the dumb-phone market and then use economies of scale and cheaper ARM processors to break into the developing world markets where people have cell phones, not computers08:30
johnxI mean, they tied up the desktop search/email/video marketshare pretty well and are now just using it to take over other markets (picture sharing, etc)08:32
johnxbut they have to be thinking "Where are the next billion google users going to come from?"08:32
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Stskeepschina? :P india? :P08:32
pupnik_since their revenue stream is based on eyeballs, that mases sense08:33
johnxhands Stskeeps a cookie :)08:33
RST38h"Any use of sub menus, beyond what fits in the 10 menu item slots in the View menu, should be avoided. Even just removing those menu commands that do not fit, should be considered. "08:33
* RST38h facepalms08:33
johnxI bet cell phones heavily out number computers there though :)08:33
johnxRST38h, sub-sub menus :)08:34
pupnik_easy solution RST38h - make one menu item do one of many things at random08:34
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RST38hBTW, can I have some crunchy eyeballs?08:35
johnxactually, something more similar to the mac os x/nextstep finder where you look through columns of stuff and double tap or press a seperate button to activate kind of makes sense08:35
RST38hpupnik: in sequence, yes08:35
johnxRST38h, sorry, all I've got is crispix08:35
johnx(which would make a good name for a breakfast-oriented unix clone)08:35
RST38hpupnik: Nth click initiates Nth action08:36
johnxRST38h, discriminates against users who can't count :P08:36
pupnik_i thought you wanted to get revenge on the 10-item-limit people08:36
RST38hjohnx: Fine with that =)08:36
RST38hBTW, there is an SCP item for that08:36
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RST38hHere it is:
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johnxgotta take a second to really thank the people at Nokia who got us the open source finger keyboard example plugin open sourced :)08:38
johnxI owe some people a beer :D08:38
RST38hYou made a new HIM plugin?08:39
johnxthey did :)08:40
RST38hTranslucent full screen finger keyboard? =)08:40
johnxRST38h, do the compositing yourself and you could probably have it semi-transparent08:40
luke-jrnow when will Nokia start making/using realistic-to-type-on keyboards? :)08:40
johnxlink to source:
johnxluke-jr, ever used a blackberry storm?08:41
luke-jrjohnx: nope08:41
RST38hjohnx: mm, this is not exactly what I meant...08:41
johnxluke-jr, turns out devices with no tactile feedback are waaaay better than devices with half-assed tactile feedback08:41
luke-jrjohnx: ?08:42
johnxluke-jr, the storm's screen must be pressed in and physically clicks08:42
johnxit's all a big button08:42
johnxand it sucks08:42
johnxthat was there attempt at realistic-to-type-on keyboards08:42
RST38h4 big buttons really08:43
luke-jrjohnx: fail08:43
RST38hBlackberry sucks no matter what they do =(08:43
luke-jrI yet again refer you to the Zaurus SL-C* series08:43
johnxRST38h, that first one blew my mind :)08:43
johnxluke-jr, yup. even the SL-5x00 series was nice08:43
RST38hjohnx: Yes, but it effectively obscures the application screen08:43
RST38hjohnx: So, it is of limited use =(08:44
johnxRST38h, it's of great use in mer :)08:44
RST38hNow I see =)08:44
johnxI am (*#&$ing thrilled. bouncing off the walls here :D08:44
Stskeepsespecially since we've tried to get fremantle HIM working for a year, heh08:44
luke-jrjohnx: but seriously, why nobody uses it in a modern handheld?08:45
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johnxluke-jr, I have no idea. none at all. and remember how nice the d-pad was?08:45
johnxwith the cancel right next to it and the center ok button?08:45
luke-jrjohnx: what d-pad?08:45
johnxdid you have an SL-Cxx0 or Cxx00?08:46
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johnxah, so you had the arrow keys08:46
luke-jrsitting right in front of me08:46
johnxcheck out a Cxx00 :)08:46
johnxgorgeous, awesome d-pad08:46
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Stskeepstimeless_mbp: not sure about Add/Remove as it is only one type of content (apps)08:47
* timeless_mbp nods08:47
timeless_mbpupdating is not something you generally should reach through this entry point08:48
timeless_mbpupdates should happen by getting a notification in the notification area08:48
timeless_mbpPkg Mgr or Pkg Manager would probably be better08:48
timeless_mbpbut i really don't like abbreviations08:48
luke-jrtimeless_mbp: you don't happen to know why Nokia doesn't use a good hardware kb, do you?08:48
timeless_mbpi've only been in maemo devices for a couple of months08:49
timeless_mbpand i have yet to meet the people in procurement or hardware selection/design08:49
Stskeepsluke-jr: the devel units we saw were excellent hw kbs08:49
Stskeepsvery nice to use08:49
timeless_mbp--- devices is a no unit08:49
infobottimeless_mbp meant: --- devices is a new unit08:49
Stskeepstimeless_mbp: Pkg Manager reminds me of
luke-jrStskeeps: compared to Zaurus SL-C*?08:49
timeless_mbpStskeeps: heh08:50
Stskeepsluke-jr: i absolutely hated n810 but loved this one08:50
johnxluke-jr, yup, the dev units that led to the N900 were much better than the n810 keyboard08:50
timeless_mbpluke-jr: fwiw, i was never a fan of the n810 keyboard08:50
johnxnot all the way up to the C1000 keyboard though08:50
timeless_mbpthe n900 keyboard doesn't bother me nearly as much08:50
johnxbut much more compact, so I can't really blame them08:50
timeless_mbpi have switched to using the n900 as my primary phone (and secondary too actually)08:50
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johnxIn most cases (except IM/IRC/console) I'd take the n800 onscreen kb over the n810 physical keyboard08:51
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Stskeepstimeless_mbp: otherwise no complaints08:54
timeless_mbpyou're using C right?08:55
* timeless_mbp should tag this repo08:55
timeless_mbpi haven't changed the desktop strings in that version (locally changed them today)08:55
timeless_mbpwell, there's a C :)08:55
Stskeepswell then08:55
timeless_mbppredictable naming :)08:56
Stskeepsnot uploaded08:56
timeless_mbphrm really?08:56
* timeless_mbp grumbles08:56
* timeless_mbp doesn't know where it'd be either08:56
* timeless_mbp shut down mer08:57
timeless_mbpactually, no, sorry08:57
timeless_mbpyou're right, B was the replacement for A :)08:57
timeless_mbpthere will be a C :)08:57
timeless_mbpactually, i have someone who's starting to convert back for enGB08:58
luke-jrI like C.08:58
timeless_mbpi need to collect his non enGB corrections and fold them in08:58
timeless_mbpthat of course is a royal pain08:58
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timeless_mbpbecause it means at some point  i need to delete the enus files in my repo, and ask my repo to copy the enGB files to enUS08:59
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* timeless_mbp should have done it earlier08:59
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* Stskeeps notes a kernel compile isn't as fun as it used to be09:08
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johnxStskeeps, but they sure go faster these days :P09:10
Stskeepsi need to upgrade my working machine here really09:11
Stskeepsi don't have my laptop anymore as it was my previous employer's so, i'm on a 1.2ghz with 384mb ram, heh09:11
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johnxI can post you 512MB of DDR109:12
johnxthat'd be a start09:12
Stskeepshehe, i do have some ram laying about09:12
Stskeepsi just haven't had time to upgrade the machine09:12
johnxbut yeah, CPU/RAM/mobo combos are running ~$200 here to end up with a reasonably quick dual core AMD09:12
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Stskeeps'll probably buy a new one over my company when time is :P09:14
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lardmanmorning all10:22
johnxmornin' lardman10:23
lardmanhey johnx, how's things?10:23
johnxpretty good. got stuff I want to play with, but broke my tools10:24
johnxbusiness as usual :)10:24
johnxand you?10:24
lardmangot in at 2am last night from London/OneDotZero10:26
lardmanbut otherwise not too bad :)10:26
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aquatixmorning all10:27
lardmanhey aquatix10:27
johnxlardman, was it worth it?10:27
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lardmanwas cool, saw some of the guys from here and Jussi & Harri (not sure about the spelling there)10:28
lardmanyou still in Japan?10:29
Myrttilardman: looks about right10:29
Myrtti(the spelling)10:29
lardmanMyrtti: thanks :)10:29
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* Stskeeps yawns10:30
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* lardman wonders why DAB radios are still being sold for >£10010:34
johnxeither 1) because people are still paying >£100 or 2) they really cost that much to make10:36
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lardman_also got to play with N900 at the interactive wall display :)10:49
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Stskeepswow, UK actually apologized for their treatment of Turing10:50
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lardman_anything to distract attention from more immediate matters10:51
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wazd'lo all10:54
Stskeepslo wazd10:54
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lardman_hi wazd10:54
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hendryi want to create a shortcut under the Extras menu. Could someone give me a clue where to look on the device FS?10:56
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aol_does Maemo run Java Virtual Machine? What kind? Sun?11:05
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Stskeepslo khertan11:07
khertanHello everyone !11:07
khertan'lo Stskeeps11:08
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wazdRST38h: khertan: heya11:09
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RST38hmoo wazd11:09
khertanthis morning i ve some test with hildon desktop python binding on the fremantle sdk .... segfault of python ... grrrrr11:09
khertanpygtkeditor segfault too ...11:11
RST38hWell at least I got my code compile on Fremantle SDK11:12
RST38hDoes not look like it is possible to run anything though11:12
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tigertgenerally people build and run x86 binaries on scratchbox11:12
tigertthen build for arm for the device11:13
tigertbut I dont think it really works to run the arm binaries in sbox11:13
khertanpffff ... i ll wait to port my apps when i ll got an real device11:13
* RST38h can't build x86 binary11:13
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khertanand yes i targetting x8611:14
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khertanand using python2.511:14
RST38hWith 2000+ lines of ARM assembly it becomes somewhat problematic11:14
hendryany clues how to create a launcher? just try personal launcher which b0rks on a brain dead dbus/machine-id problem11:15
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RST38hrestate your question11:17
khertanhendry: on which os ?11:17
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hendrykhertan: maemo diablo11:17
khertanworks for me11:17
hendrykhertan: i just want create a shortcut for GtkLauncher. I'm finding it very difficult. :)11:18
tigerthendry: check the example app?11:18
tigertI think they are in /etc/applications/ - they are done with .desktop files11:18
tigertbut it uses maemo-launcher so try the example package11:19
hendrytigert: thanks11:20
tigerthendry: which release of maemo?11:20
khertanabout maemo summit sponsorship ... does they have sent email about acceptation or not ?11:21
khertani still didn't have any news11:21
khertanbut maybe due to the failure of my host11:21
khertanas they recover 2 years of email that was deleted ... :(11:21
tigerthendry: maybe this helps?11:21
tigertit does a "service" and such11:22
tigertI think it is what you need to do, though I am far from being an expert on this launcher stuff11:22
aol_RST38h: thanks!11:23
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RST38hYou can only launch app via service if it initializes itself as a dbus service11:25
RST38hif it DOES NOT, you can still launch it, as an executable11:25
RST38hIn this case you should remove Service: line from the .desktop file11:25
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hendryRST38h: previously i used Personal Launcher where I didn't have this option11:26
tigertRST38h: ok good to know11:26
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khertanok on i see that my sponsorship is accepted11:28
khertanbut ... hey noone receive an email about acceptations ?11:28
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lbtkhertan: I got an email about sponsorship late yesterday11:29
khertanhum ...11:29
lbtand I sent an email to the travel agents last night11:29
khertanso my host lost it11:29
lbtand got flight details this am11:30
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hendryhmm, created a .desktop file in /etc/others-menu and it's not being picked up. grr11:30
khertanlbt: did you know who send this email ? because maybe i should ask a resend ...11:30
lbtkhertan: ask Jaffa when he's around, he can probably resend.11:30
khertanlbt: thanks11:30
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Stskeepslbt: bringing the missus?11:31
khertanjust an advice, never use ovh hoster services11:31
lbtStskeeps: wasn't... but...11:32
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Stskeepslbt: i just recall danish weekend so :P11:32
lbtwe just reviewed the talks ... not much for a non-dev11:36
lbt(some but really not much)11:36
lbtand it's 3 days of talks...11:37
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RST38hhendry: you have to update the cache11:38
floriangood morning11:39
hendryRST38h: how do I do that?11:40
lbtStskeeps: are you bringing yours (now you've got one)11:42
Stskeepslbt: not this time around, we are going to .fi together though11:42 ?11:43
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hendryRST38h: is fun, though google results for me are about an icon cache12:15
RST38hhendry: update-desktop-database /usr/share/applications12:18
* RST38h sighs12:18
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wazdkhertan: I've received12:41
wazdkhertan: you can use mine :D12:42
* Stskeeps wonders where his sd cards are12:42
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Stskeepslbt: when are you landing on thursday then?12:55
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X-FadeHmm another 8 people or so requesting sponsorship without filling in _any_ other details.12:58
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Stskeepspool been used up yet? :P12:59
X-FadeNo idea, but getting close to the 300 limit.13:00
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X-Fade11 places left ;)13:01
lbtcurrently 8pm13:01
lbtgoing to ask for an earlier flight13:01
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Stskeepslbt: alright, i'll be in amsterdam from 2pm it seems, and flying 3pm sunday13:02
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lbtis hotel not covered for sponsorship?13:03
Stskeepssure it is13:03
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lbt"If you wish we book a hotel for you please inform us your credit card number with expire date."13:03
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lbtI thought so too13:03
Stskeepsnokia booked 40 rooms13:04
Stskeepsor something13:04
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Stskeepsand i think it's like it was in cph then13:04
Stskeepswell, hopefully less crazy for my pov :P13:05
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Stskeepsanyway if you come earlier i'm up for dinner or something :p13:06
lbtwriting back now..13:07
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X-Fadelbt: yes, rooms are booked in advance.13:13
X-Fadelbt: approved people at least have a bed ;)13:14
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wazdX-Fade: can I replace myself with other guy? :)13:24
lardman_is there a list somewhere?13:24
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wazdX-Fade: unless he's aapproved too13:29
JaffaMorning, all13:32
lardmanhi Jaffa13:32
wazdJaffa: heya, same question for you :) Can I replace myself with other guy?13:32
Jaffawazd: Replace yourself for what?13:33
wazdJaffa: in sponsorship slot :D13:33
JaffaWith whom?13:33
zerojayMichael Jordan. ;)13:33
wazdJaffa: max Usachev, he's GSoC developer, he's made Mnemosyne for Maemo, really cool developer and nice guy :)13:33
wazdJaffa: unless he will be approved later :)13:34
Jaffawazd: The point of the sponsorship is to make sure you're there; and everyone is still being ranked on their merits13:34
Jaffawazd: No decision has been made on him yet13:34
RST38hwazd: You should be there.13:35
RST38hDo not try to get away =)13:36
wazdJaffa: well, I can't go anyway, there's a good probability that I'll be in the court defending my rights during the Summit :D13:36
RST38hwazd: ???13:36
wazdRST38h: well, my army dep. still refuses to let me go, so I think I'll sue them13:36
RST38hwazd: Oh shit13:37
zerojaywazd: Wow. Even in this day and age...13:37
RST38hwazd: you can't get the travel passport without them ok'ing it?13:38
wazdzerojay: well, that's life :)13:38
wazdRST38h: yep13:38
wazdRST38h: that's why I stuck for 2 years already :)13:38
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AnunakinHi All!13:38
Stskeepselse wazd would have been filthy rich already ;)13:38
RST38hwazd: do they want you to serve or think you know something?13:38
wazdRST38h: they want money :)13:39
RST38hwazd: that covers both cases actually =)13:39
wazdRST38h: I can't serve due to family and health conditions and I don't have secrecy restrictions :)13:39
wazdRST38h: they just don't want to leave me alone for free :)13:40
RST38hwazd: Ah ok, then it should be arguable in court13:40
RST38hthe secrecy clause would be more of a problem13:40
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AnunakinHey, I need some help on clone to SD, the problem is, I have one partition only on SD card and maemo stay to mount internal memory under first partition (and single) on  external SD, any know where to change on /etc files?13:42
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RST38hSteve Ballmer publicly ridicules Microsoft employee with iPhone, threatens to smash it13:45
* RST38h isn't sure whose side he would be on here13:46
thuxsteve seems hothead :)13:46
RST38hEagerly waiting for him to go reiser =)13:46
thuxbill was more calm13:47
lbtRST38h: url ?13:47
* RST38h wants to know how he gets to IP>0xFFFF in 16bit mode13:48
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wazdcan anybody explain me why I have blinking cursor in firefox, wherever I clicl?)13:50
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ccookewazd: you've turned on caret browsing?13:52
RST38hwazd: You have turned on caret browsing13:53
wazdRST38h: how/where/why me?!13:53
RST38hwazd: about:config and accessibility.browsewithcaret = false13:54
ccookeIt's currently an option named "Always use the cursor keys to navigate within pages", under the Advanced -> General tab.13:54
ccooke(that's firefox 3.5)13:54
* RST38h has caret browsing off but arrows still work13:54
wazdccooke: oh, thanks!13:54
ccookeRST38h: with caret browsing off, they do slightly different things13:55
wazdRST38h: yeah, same :)13:55
Myrttiis the preorder price of N900 gone down in a week?13:55
Stskeepshow much is it now?13:55
ccooke(With it on, you move the cursor. With it off, you move the page)13:55
wazdccooke: oooh13:55
MyrttiI think it was about 30€ less now than last week on
ccookeMyrtti: really? What country/place?13:55
MyrttiStskeeps: 599€ + 7€ s/h13:55
ccookeI think that's the original price, still13:56
MyrttiI think it was like 629€ last week13:56
RST38hThat must be with .fi VAT13:56
wazdso many rich people out there :P13:56
Myrttiwazd: it's still cheaper than N9713:56
RST38hwazd: Give it 3-4 months and it will be $500-$550, at least in the US13:57
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ccookewazd: I put down money for the n900 in December. If I hadn't... no way I'd be able to afford it right now :-)13:57
thuxwonder how many here already have n900 in their hands, 60% of people?13:57
zerojayNo way.13:57
RST38hMyrtti: N97 is $550 in the US right now13:57
zerojayLess than 10%.13:58
Myrttithis channel is not nokia, nokia is not this channel13:58
SpeedEvilStill 499 here - in UK - n90013:58
ccookethux: more like 0.6% :-)13:58
X-Fadethux: Way way less ;)13:58
kirmamyrtti: the price in was 599 euros plus delivery already on the first day it was there13:58
khertanthux: not me13:58
ccookeSpeedEvil: less if you pre-order at *technically* less at expansys, too, but that's a £30 voucher13:58
Myrttikirma: where did I see the 629€ then...?13:58
fralsstill same price on the swedish nokia shop, 5995 swedish (about 599e)13:58
SpeedEvilccooke: ?13:58
* ccooke preordered from Nokia, though, hoping they'll ship sooner.13:58
X-Fadethux: The consumer version is not out there yet. So every metion you see are pre-production/protos probably.13:59
zerojayI think that when I get an N900, I'm going to need a droolguard. Anyone sell those?13:59
kirmaindesol or something had that kind of price13:59
khertancome in france ... n900 is in pre order for 649 Euros13:59
SpeedEvilAh - 47913:59 has 589.90€13:59
zerojayAllez les Bleus!13:59
RST38hkhertan: Yes, but it must have got SCART!13:59
RST38hBTW, does the French N900 output video in SECAM?14:00
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khertanTVA Tax 19.6% + Around 50 Euro as it s a mp3 player too so tax on everything that can have mp314:00
khertanand an other tax as it s a phone14:00
SpeedEvil649 euros >> 479 pounds14:00
ccookeSpeedEvil: Technically I'd say's is cheaper - free delivery14:00
khertanit s seems that france will become soon a communist country14:01
khertan<SpeedEvil>   ALL PREORDERS INCLUDE FREE STANDARD SHIPPING. <<< not on french nokia store :)14:01
kirmanot in .fi either14:01
ccookeSpeedEvil: yes, but nokia charges the extra £2014:01
SpeedEvilccooke: of course14:01
ccookeBut as I said - I'm hoping they'll ship sooner than play would :-)14:01
fralsin sweden all orders above ~200€ is free shipping from nokia.se14:01
RST38hkhertan: Is it not yet? =)14:01
zerojayWith the way some Americans react any time they hear the word "France", you'd think they were communist a LONG time ago. ;)14:02
SpeedEvilStill - at 149 - I might have ordered - 479 - no way14:02
khertanRST38h: i don't think as communisme mean sharing ... at this time i'm just taxed ... not getting any services14:02
ccookeSpeedEvil: £149?! Now that's optimism!14:02
RST38hzerojay: Americans react this way to anybody who does not do what they want. "Communist" was simply a convenient label at the time =)14:02
zerojayRST38h: Agreed!14:02
RST38hkhertan: That is not communism then14:02
ccookeSpeedEvil: still, give it a year or four and you'll probably find it for that...14:02
khertan32Go = 50 Euro heighter price ... huhu14:02
khertanRST38h: yes ... :)14:03
khertanRST38h: we say in french ploutocratie14:03
RST38hkhertan: Communism is when they take all your property and give you free health services, education, and housing =)14:03
SpeedEvilRST38h: And gulags14:03
RST38hWithout the last three things, it is just robbery =)14:03
RST38hSpeed: that too, although they are not specific to commies, really14:04
thuxis it true that no mms message support in n900?14:04
RST38hthux: Yes.14:04
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RST38hthux: Explicitely stated that they did not want to go into implementing that shit14:04
khertanit s like a democratie but governed by rich idiots14:04
ccookeRST38h: probably wise.14:05
RST38hccooke: Yea, reading MMS-related standard documents can give you lifelong nightmares14:05
zerojayRST38h: More like there was an issue in the Linux kernel that couldn't be worked around for SMS support (which apparently now has been fixed), but.. close enough.14:05
ccookeI think the only time I've ever used MMS was when my phone broke and stopped sending SMS14:05
RST38hzerojay: That, I suspect, was bogus.14:05
zerojayYeah... mms support.14:05
fralsI use MMS a few times a week :[14:06
RST38hzerojay: Because MMS has nothing to do with the kernel14:06
ccookeI find myself deeply suspicious of any suggestion you'd need a kernel driver for mms support14:06
RST38hccooke: Does it use SMS for notifications btw?14:06
ccookefrals: it should be entirely possible to write an app to do it14:07
zerojayRST38h: Has to do with connections implemented within the kernel from what I understand. I can't say I've looked at recent changelogs to notice what change in the kernel could possibly have made MMS possible again.14:07
ccookeRST38h: which it?14:07
RST38hzerojay: MMS runs over http protocol more or less14:07
RST38hccooke: MMS14:07
fralsyeah shouldnt be that hard14:07
RST38hccooke: I mean the only kernel depdendence would be receiving incoming message notifications from the baseband chip14:08
thuxbut isn't lack of mms support means no mobile viruses then?14:08
ccookezerojay: if the GSM modem is at all accessible in userland - which it will be - then it'll be possible to send SMS or MMS via it.14:08
RST38hccooke: if this is done via plain SMS, then the kernel claim is totally bogus14:08
ccookeRST38h: depends how it's done.14:08
fralsthe way i understood it is your phone gets an SMS with an embedded link to the MMS14:08
RST38hfrals: that is pre-MMS stuff, I think14:09
fralswhich your device should launch in a wap browser or something like that14:09
RST38hBut it may be used for MMS as well14:09
RST38hzerojay: Anyway, I would take the kernel claim with a huge grain of salt14:09
zerojayRST38h: Looking at MMS... yeah, does seem weird.14:10
fralskernel claim seems unlikely, but I think I read somewhere it was due to them not wanting to "waste" time on the WAP standard14:10
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zerojayMaybe just a matter of them not having the time to implement it.14:10
zerojayLike portrait mode.14:10
fralsyeah, id say that seems like a good reason ^^14:11
zerojayAnd like portrait mode, I won't miss MMS a bit. :D14:11
ccookefrals: what do you use MMS for, by the way?14:11
SpeedEvilAnd FM reciever -14:11
ccookeI've never actually met anyone who used it :-)14:11
fralsrandom funny stuff i encounter when im out about mostly, i mean, its not vital in any way :)14:12
lardmanSpeedEvil: that looks straight forward to get working14:12
ccookefrals: would sending email work just as well?14:12
ccookeor, indeed, SMS with a link to a web page.14:12
AnunakinI want one N900 too!14:12
SpeedEvillardman: yes - I await my N900 so I can try. Or not. :/14:12
RST38hfrals: Correct - they do not want to implement the whole WAP/MMS stack14:12
ccookeAnunakin: I think many of us do :-)14:12
X-FadeAnd uploading for Ovi or Flickr is built in.14:12
zerojayIf I'm taking a picture of something, I'll want to share it with more than just one person, so... flickr/facebook/ovi/pixelpipe support is all I need.14:13
X-FadeSo you can easily sent a mail with link.14:13
fralsthe thing with mms is i know everyone i send it to can view straight away in the device, while most can check their email/a website its way more effort14:13
X-FadeOr IM + link.14:13
RST38hfrals: It is huge, outdated, and just plain horrible14:13
* ccooke even has a plan to write something for it. Unfortunately, it's not something I can even tell is possible until I get my hands on the device :-)14:13
* RST38h never seen people use MMS14:13
thuxfor instance if you see celebrity you can take picture and send it to seiska magazine and get cash :)14:13
* SpeedEvil notes RST38h is commenting using a messaging system unchanged for well over a decade.14:13
fralswhile most of the people i mms with actually have email in their phones they dont have it autochecking/push-notifications so a mms is more direct14:13
RST38hSpeed: And proud of it.14:14
SpeedEvilRST38h: outdated doesn't mean bad!14:14
RST38hSpeed: If it ain't broken, don't fix it14:14
SpeedEvilToday I am going to have anohther go setting up pppd/chat.14:14
SpeedEvilI last did this in 1998 or so when I last setup my dialup.14:14
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zerojayMMS = bad. ;)14:15
thuxi use mms every day, today sent 7 pics and received five14:15
SpeedEvilNow - all I need is to find a really long bit of bamboo to strap my 3G dongle to.14:15
ccookeSpeedEvil: ... ?14:15
SpeedEvilccooke: Coverage - outdoor/variable14:15
zerojaythux: I don't know a single person in my real life that uses it or even knows what it is. lol14:16
RST38hthux: how much have you paid?14:16
fralsi guess it depends a lot on your location, id say most people in sweden knows about it/have used it/uses it14:16
thux0,39e msg14:16
thuxwhen send14:16
fralsi get like 3000 free mms each month, and the one receiving it doesnt pay either14:17
ccookepaying to receive any message is... insane. It *is* only the US that does that, right?14:17
fralsi hope so14:18
fralsgood way to get people not to use it i guess14:18
SpeedEvilccooke: Unless it's opt-in-services generally in the UK14:19
* frals goes reading the OMA MMS spec14:19
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thuxhere they do use it14:19
Captain_PicardAnunakin: !!!14:19
ccookeHere we go - how to send an MMS message from a GSM modem:
ccookeSpeedEvil: that's fine, though14:19
SpeedEvilccooke: yeah14:20
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RST38hccooke: ok, so not different from sms, no special kernel support needed14:22
RST38hOn the other hand, the notification process is not covered in this page14:22
frals if you want the specs for it ;)14:23
ccookeRST38h: *nod*14:23
AnunakinHey, I need some help on clone to SD, the problem is, I have one partition only on SD card and maemo stay to mount internal memory under first partition (and single) on  external SD, any know where to change on /etc files?14:25
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ShadowJKWAP is seriously crufty14:25
AnunakinCaptain_Picard: ?14:25
SpeedEvilWAP is what - compressed protocol html over mms basically?14:25
* SpeedEvil forgets the transport14:26
ShadowJKnot html14:26
Captain_PicardAnunakin: you buying the n900?14:26
Anunakinnot for now... I dont live on USA or Europe!14:26
ShadowJKInstead of just using a subset of HTML2 for CPU and RAM-restricted machines, they had a comittee invent a whole new thing instead.14:26
AnunakinCaptain_Picard: I just looking for buy on amazon.com14:27
chxSpeedEvil: no way14:27
ShadowJKThe transport stuff seems pretty icky too, you have to establish a new GPRS connection to a dedicated APN for mms, connect to some proxy servers to send your request over WAP and... gah14:27
chxSpeedEvil: If memory serves, MMS came way later than WAP14:27
ShadowJKand WAP has the translation stuff where your operator's server modifies content according to the capabilities of your phone14:28
chxSpeedEvil: actually now that i look, MMS uses WAP14:28
ShadowJKThe whole thing stinks dung, and I can't blame them for not wanting to touch it with 10-foot pole14:29
SpeedEvilyou'd I think therefore need to teardown IP to do WAP?14:30
SpeedEvil /mms?14:30
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thuxi think all symbian and wince models still support mms, wonder does iphone? is iphone software osx?14:33
fralsthe 3gs does support mms afaik14:33
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* aquatix wonders why his android phone only can send contacts as mms14:35
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hendryaquatix: what other contact formats were you expecting?14:36
aquatixvcard over email14:36
aquatixat the least :)14:36
lardmanor over BT?14:36
aquatixgiven that android will do bluetooth obex soonish14:37
ShadowJKSpeedEvil, dunno, atleast on S60 you can have multiple GPRS connections open simultaneously. I can both have my phone providing internet to my tablet, and have phone connect to internet itself (with each getting their own public IP)14:37
ShadowJKhowever when I was in germany that didn't work. I guess the operator can limit the amount of GPRS connections per device14:38
fralsuh, after reading some of the specs documents and other stuff ive concluded that mms is ugly :(14:38
thuxis that obama's blueberry wince?14:39
zerojayMms is... Yucky.14:39
fralsbut still so nice to have, but implementing it seems a bit awkward14:45
fralson the other hand ive never done anything sms-related (coding) either14:45
ShadowJKthe sms part of it isn't that bad14:45
thuxmy old wince ipaq didn't support those long sms picture msgs14:47
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thuxbw pictures 3 sms long14:48
Corsacdo we have any news about carriers n900 availability?14:48
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zerojayProbably not likely either.14:48
zerojayAt least in the us.14:49
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zerojayThey want to lock down or customize Maemo. Nokia says no, carriers say no.14:50
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zerojayPretty simple really.14:50
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zerojayBut who knows, maybe someone will take a chance.14:51
* Jaffa doesn't understand it; since Apple doesn't let them "customise" iPhone14:58
ShadowJKthux, those are called ems and completely different than mms14:58
ShadowJKJaffa, ah but Apple does it for them :-)14:58
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ShadowJKjust look at the voip and tethering vanishing :)14:58
X-Fadezerojay: There are a lot of countries where providers don't have a say in what device enters their network.14:59
X-Fadezerojay: I can get any device subsidized over here.14:59
zerojayThat makes sense.14:59
ShadowJKX-Fade, I didn't know there were places where they had a say14:59
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zerojayCongrats. It's not the case here.15:00
X-FadeShadowJK: *cough* us *cough*15:00
ShadowJKX-Fade, I thought they didn't have the right to block you from using a certain device15:00
X-FadeShadowJK: No, but they just don't offer it.15:01
ShadowJKWell that's different :)15:01
X-FadeI guess you can always get an unlocked device and use that.15:01
ShadowJKThere are some countries where operators aren't at all involved in the business of selling devices :)15:01
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zerojayWind is supposed to be starting up in canada soon, hopefully with euro style pricing.15:03
khertanhaving no carrier customizing is really a good things15:04
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khertanthe orange one on n70 really slow down the phone15:04
khertan5min for starting the phone15:04
khertanand 45s for displaying the menu15:05
khertanand it s prevent user for flashing the device15:05
ShadowJKmy operator is now selling phones :/15:05
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ShadowJKLuckily they advertise whether they've crippled the device or not. Most are uncrippled :)15:05
khertanit s require some hack just to get a working phone15:05
ShadowJKYeah, the block on firmware/ota updates is one if the bigger drawbacks with operator-crippled/castrated/customized phones15:06
khertanand on Treo650 selled by orange, the firmware update was delayed for one year15:06
khertanzerojay: you said that they didn t ask for customization on iphone ... but they surely require some rules for application available on iphone store15:08
khertaniphone application store15:09
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Jaffakhertan: Apple say the carriers do not get involved in individual application decisions15:10
Jaffa(however there are rules about VoIP etc.)15:11
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khertanJaffa: in individual ... but for the mass ?15:12
khertanJaffa: hi :)15:12
khertani ve a request to you ... i just see this morning that i was "officially" accepted for a sponsored travel, but i didn't got any email ... and has my hoster got problem with email, i fear that it was lost ...15:13
khertanif you send me any mail about the summit ... is it possible to re send me again the email ?15:13
Jaffakhertan: It's basically
khertanthx :) and sorry for disturbing you15:13
khertan> "The only travel expenses sponsored are flights" the hotel isn't sponsored ?15:15
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ccookekhertan: hotel isn't travel expenses, surely?15:16
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SpeedEvilAirport fees?15:16
SpeedEvilflight VAT+... ?15:16
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ccookemy reading would be: They get you tickets. That's all the cost. You pay to get to the airport, and from airport to hotel15:17
ccookeFrom what I'd read, it sounds like they pay the hotel, too.15:17
ccookeBut once the ticket is paid for, there are no additional costs.15:18
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ccookeOOI, How many people here have an Android phone?15:19
khertan <<< it s a joke ?15:19
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AndrewFBlackkhertan, yeah its a joke15:21
ccookeHeh. I guess I can take that as "Nobody who's here" :-)15:21
khertanccooke: yep :)15:21
ccookeWhich is a shame15:21
* SpeedEvil ponders adding - 'I got mine - also a free puppy'.15:21
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: heh!15:22
ccookeThere's an Android app I'm tempted to implement for the n900, but I wanted to see if people were interested15:22
ccookeI guess I could explain the app, if people don't mind?15:22
khertanccooke: a shame ? android is a shame ... it s works mainly with java15:22
DocScrutinizerSpeedEvil: you got Android on your FR?15:22
ccookekhertan: seen how much maemo code is in a HLL?15:22
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lardmanJava? where's crashanddie...? :)15:23
ccookeHigh Level Language - python, ruby, perl, java...15:23
SpeedEvilDocScrutinizer: I don't have a FR. I spent cash on the neo - and couldn't justify spending more on the FR. Small income due to disability benefits/...15:23
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DocScrutinizeraah, GTA0115:24
ccookeThe app I want to implement, though, is called Locale - basically, it's a pluggable event system with a drag and drop UI.15:24
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ccookeIt can trigger on your location, the time, batter states, when someone calls... and can then do stuff like setting brightness, turning off wifi, sending messages, updating todo lists...15:25
ccookebattery states, even15:25
ccookeI don't think anyone's implemented a deep frying plugin yet15:25
zerojayLook up Shephard on tmo.15:26
DocScrutinizerccooke: I'm much interested in hat15:26
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lbtvery similar concept - I've written it in python for Mer15:29
ccookeISTR that maemo switched to Upstart as an init replacement15:29
ccookeI was planning to use that :-)15:30
lbtno UI - I'm more interested in getting the underlying system right - but it's perfectly reasonable to use a UI to manage the connections15:30
ccookeefficiency and all that15:30
lbthow would that work?15:30
lbtI see it as a dbus/signal switchboard15:30
lbtwith multiple connections/signal15:30
ccookelbt: you see what as a dbus/signal switchboard?15:31
lbtkinda like Qt signal/slots or any other publish/subscribe15:31
lbtyou mentioned "Locale"15:31
lbtas "a pluggable event system"15:31
lbtthat is what ^^ my blog post is about15:31
lbtand what I'm working on atm for Mer (and anything else)15:32
ccookeyes, I read it. I wasn't sure if you meant that or Upstart15:32
ccookeas your "it"15:32
ccookeboth were in context :-)15:32
ccookeThe reason I was planning on using Upstart is it already solves the backend15:33
lbtI can see what you mean15:33
lbtI'm using python for similar reasons...15:33
ccookein an efficient way that doesn't require an extra daemon running15:33
lbtthe code is minimal but provides context15:33
lbtand python will be running anyhow so .so should take care of most issues15:34
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lbtback in a sec - maybe read the post15:34
lbtI've got to put up some code15:34
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lbtwould be happy to collaborate and review the design15:34
ccookelbt: I'd be very interested.15:35
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ccookethe key points are making it suitable for non-technical use15:36
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ccookeAs an example of what I'm doing with it right now: I have it changing the wallpaper whenver I'm at home, turning the brightnes sup to full when it's on charge, turning off wifi and dimming the backlight when power's low... and sending an SMS to my wife when I get near Hammersmith tube station after 4pm on a weekday (because I have a habit of working late, and it's useful for her to know when I'm on the way home)15:38
SpeedEvilWhat does the text say?15:38
SpeedEvilStop! Hammersmithtime!15:38
ccooke... Now I'm tempted to do that.15:39
ccookeI think she'll kill me :-)15:39
lbtheh ... when I rotate my N800 camera the screen brightness goes up/down15:39
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lbtsyntax/UI for my config is eg: connect(camera, "", takePhotoAfter10Secs)15:40
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jaskadoes n800 have the light sensor?15:40
ccookejaska: technically yes, but actually no15:40
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ccooke(there's an app somewhere that uses the camera as one :-)15:40
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jaskaah, was just wondering15:41
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khertanarg ... seems there isn't many place for flight to amsterdamn for the 9th october ... :(15:53
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JaffaYay, someone agrees with me about /opt/<package> :-)15:56
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lardmanmonkeys and typewriters...? ;)15:57
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Jaffalardman: :-p15:58
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javispedro10% slowdown for unionfs? that does not make sense16:00
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CorsacJaffa: was already given?16:01
JaffaCorsac: Yes.16:01
JaffaSince /etc/opt etc. was going to be used, it was deemed hack*ier* than /opt/maemo/usr/...16:02
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* javispedro remembers qgil's "you won't need to worry about space for applications" post16:03
javispedrowell, everyone is worried now ;)16:03
* Jaffa remembered that post, and pointed it out to qgil, when he saw that there was only 100MB free on /16:04
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ccooke100MB free? I guess most of the 32G is FAT-formatted?16:04
JaffaThe rootfs is not on the eMMC (which is where the 32G is)16:05
JaffaSome of the 32G is allocated for /home/user as ext2, and the rest is /home/user/MyDocs as vfat16:05
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luke-jrJaffa: you forgot swap?16:08
javispedrothe aufs solution doesn't look awful, but it brings its own load of problems. what to do with ssu?16:08
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fiferboytimeless_mbp: Could you check a couple things in 0.4-5 when you have some time?16:11
* javispedro envisions the app mgr entering a special mode for ssus, disabling the unionfs and writing all over the oneNAND, then prelinking and remounting the unionfs16:12
javispedrochaos would ensue16:14
Jaffaluke-jr: True16:15
Jaffajavispedro: App Manager blocks the device usage during SSU, so unmounting the union would seem fine16:15
JaffaI don't know if they bother prelinking with SSUs16:16
javispedroJaffa: but don't know how aufs will handle that. Imagine the user has been toying with upgraded "overlayed" system libs in eMMC.16:16
Jaffajavispedro: True. Maybe SSUs just go on top of the union then?16:17
javispedrothen we are in the eeePC situation.16:17
Jaffajavispedro: Or, it becomes two stage somehow?16:17
javispedroSkype both in ro branch and rw branch16:17
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javispedronearly everything duplicated16:17
javispedroand (if the bad emmc relative performance is to be believed) system slowed down.16:17
Jaffajavispedro: True.16:18
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Jaffajavispedro: dpkg already knows if a file has been futzed with when an upgrade comes in. Use that somehow?16:18
ccookeshame we can't do what ipkg did16:19
javispedroJaffa: probably. patched dpkg can delete it from emmc. However, uglyness increasing again :)16:19
javispedroccooke: good question. what does ipkg do?16:19
Jaffajavispedro: True. Damnit. I'd hoped a union would save us.16:19
Jaffajavispedro: But then I'm not convinced by m-vo's answer to the Python packages problem16:20
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ccookejavispedro: It has a concept of install bases - you can write to any of them, and it'll symlink all the files into the right place in the rootfs16:20
javispedroJaffa: come to think of it, unionfs could be patched instead to use mtime to decide which file to "show".16:20
m-voJaffa, I don't think I answered anything about Python...16:20
javispedro(if it doesn't do that already!!)16:20
ccookebut that would be a separate dpkg, so...16:20
Jaffam-vo: hello! :)16:20
ccookejavispedro: I think it can do that now.16:21
Jaffam-vo: I thought you responded to one of my mails about the symlinks from one package confusing the second16:21
javispedroccooke: basically, it's dpkg but with an initial maemo-optify-deb ?16:21
m-voNo, sounds unfamiliar...16:21
Jaffajavispedro: In fact, surely it must already use mtime?16:21
javispedroyeah, going to test now16:21
ccookejavispedro: in many ways, yes. Except of course, it's more *almost* dpkg16:21
* mgedmin is scared by all this unionfs talk16:21
* mgedmin notes that Ubuntu at least already uses very extensive symlink trees for all Python packages16:22
ccookejavispedro: the ipk format is a descendant of .deb, while ipkg is a limited replacement for dpkg and apt-get.16:22
ccookeActually, why not post-process this?16:22
ccookeWrite a tool to use symlinks to move files out of the rootfs16:22
ccookethat can even be atomic, so it can run in the background.16:23
Jaffam-vo: In that case, see the pyton-core and python-evolution thought experiment at
m-vowill do...16:23
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ccookeHmm. not in the background, it'd need to be an explicit front end.16:24
Corsacwith a pure dpkg it'd be possible to use triggers too16:25
ccookeOn the other hand, you could precalculate the space you'd save - even set it to an aggressiveness figure.16:25
ccookeso you could guarantee getting the space you need16:25
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ccookeCorsac: indeed.16:25
m-voJaffa, right that needs a good response.16:26
javispedrohm. aufs doesn't seem to do that by default. it is always showing the rw branch file16:26
mgedminccooke: can you atomically replace a file with a symlink?16:26
mgedminsymlink(2) says "If newpath exists it will not be overwritten."16:26
timeless_mbpfiferboy: i looked16:26
timeless_mbpi had a couple of comments16:26
ccookemgedmin: I recall there being a way, but I'd need to double check.16:26
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m-voThere might indeed by problems if two packages contain the exact same symlink, but maemo-optify will never do that, I think.16:26
fiferboytimeless_mbp: Thanks16:26
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javispedroI gather it's showing the file from the first branch (as ordered in the mount call) that has it.16:27
m-voIt can only happen with directories, and directories are only moved if they are named after the package, which means e should be safe.16:27
mgedminJaffa: re your question on the ml: the setup had a symlink to a directory16:27
mgedminI've heard that dpkg is very unhappy if you use symlinks to directories16:27
m-voI'll read Valerie's articles.  Should be great stuff, as always.16:28
Jaffamgedmin: maemo-optify *seems* to symlink dirs16:28
mgedminit could be people were saying that exactly because of situations of the kind you described16:28
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JaffaThe idea of doing this on-device, rather than at package time is intriguing.16:28
ccookemgedmin: I've used symlinks to directories for years without problems16:28
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mgedminccooke: of course! symlink to a new random temp name + atomic rename() to replace it16:29
ccookemgedmin: exactly. Simple and atomic.16:29
mgedminccooke: in .deb packages you built?16:29
ccookemgedmin: ah, inside the debs? Not that I recall. Sorry, misunderstood you16:29
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Jaffam-vo: What'd stop maemo-optify creating a symlink for /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/evolution/ when /usr/lib/python2.5 is owned by a different package?16:31
ccookeJaffa: it's safer, really. it's provable that any updates will work correctly - either they'll replace the symlink with a new file (in which case we'd need a reaper to detect the dangling links) or they'd update the files (we should keep md5s to be sure we know that happened)16:31
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* Jaffa thinks he's encountered this kind of thing before when building up little Linux distros for his own usage (incl. 20MB bootable CDs)16:31
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Jaffaccooke: Indeed. And having it not polluting the source packages appeals to me architecturally16:31
JaffaAlthough, the thought of a package having a bug caused by the symlink on one user's device, but not the next is a little worrying.16:32
* mgedmin wishes he kept links to all his sources and could provide references when saying "I heard that ..."16:32
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ccookeJaffa: make the tool log what its done. That'll be needed to catch dangling links, anyway - and then we can ask for the output of it when fixing bugs.16:33
Jaffamgedmin: Google Mind? ;-)16:33
Jaffaccooke: /me nods16:33
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ccookeJaffa: we'd need a GUI tool for this anyway, to enable the user to tell it to reclaim space - so include some package debug options there. Not just for what it does, either16:33
ccookeit's a nice and obvious place to hang arbitrary package-health-check functions.16:34
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ccookeheh. Amusingly, the script I mentioned would be easily written using a shell-script-to-gui-toolkit approach. Could be done in an hour or two :-)16:42
RST38hWhoever has got moderator privileges at t.m.o, here is your guy:
fralsbtw - relating to the MMS discussion earlier, just got an MMS! ;D16:43
ccookefrals: :-)16:44
RST38h(BTW, reporting spam postings also seems to be broken)16:44
ccookeRST38h: (I don't have privs, I'm jusst nosy) "No Thread specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"16:44
RST38hah, probably killed already16:44
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fralswas it the ipurchasethread? ;D16:45
RST38hit was the same chinese spammer, carpet bombing with long lists of gadgets at low low prices16:46
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RST38hhas been doing it for longer than a year, too, under different accounts. Who knows what he is hoping for...16:47
ccookeRST38h: probably nothing.16:47
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MaceN8x0spamming for ip?16:48
vesawhat's the 'proper' place to install your own files (ie stuff that you might create at runtime, images, text files etc)16:48
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ccooke(For anyone following the discussion about putting apps onto other storage, here's the command I'd suggest to find the best candidates for offloading: 'find /usr/ -size +16k -type f -printf "%s %p\n" | sort -n' )16:51
ccooke(first approximation and all that :-)16:51
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ccooke(and technically that'd be sort -rn, but it's easier for humans to parse this way)16:52
RST38hvesa: ~/MyDocs16:52
RST38hvesa: ~/.* for invisible stuff16:52
SpeedEvilccooke: you might want atime in there too16:53
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RST38hHe only needs size really16:53
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ccookeSpeedEvil: I'd hope the internal FS is mounted noatime16:53
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SpeedEvilccooke: oh - true16:53
RST38hAnd, in fact, his suggestion is somewhat incorrect16:53
ccookeI see I've missed off the one file system check, though16:53
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vesaRST38h: isn't ~ only the 100mb?16:54
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RST38hccooke: As you are looking to offload whole directories, not single files, "df -R /usr | sort -rn" will suffice16:54
Stskeepsgah, fucking finally16:54
* Stskeeps was disconnected from the net for 2 hours16:54
ccookeRST38h: I was thinking of doing both, really16:54
RST38hSts: is she pretty?16:54
ccookebut either way works.16:54
StskeepsRST38h: hah, good one :P16:55
RST38hccooke: find option won't find directories with hundreds of tiny files16:55
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RST38hccooke: df | sort will simply list your directories in order of monstrosity16:55
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ccookeRST38h: du, surely16:56
RST38hdu, sorry16:56
RST38hmy mistake16:56
ccookeRST38h: the problem with that is it requires more code.16:57
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RST38hhow so?16:57
ccookeafter all, it'll first want to move the whole of /usr/, then /usr/lib, then /usr/share...16:57
ccookeyou'd need more of a blacklist16:57
RST38hccooke: Yes, but you have got a human brain to intelligently  ignore these16:57
RST38hccooke: And by pigeon principle there won't be many of them16:57
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ccookeThe sensible thing is to ban moving any direct descendant of /usr or /usr/local16:58
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ccookeWhich leaves us with:17:00
ccookedu -x /usr/ | egrep -v "/usr/(local\/)?[^\/]*$" | sort -rn | head -2017:00
ccooke(the head for readability only)17:00
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ccooke(for exactness, a ^ should be added at the start of the regex)17:02
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RST38hccooke: Now implement the same in Tcl with output done into a Tk listbox!17:03
* RST38h explodes in diabolical laughter17:03
ccookenah. I'll do it all in shell, using /dev/tcp/localhost/6000 to open a connection to the X server and make all the X calls using echo.17:04
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javispedroccooke: this is not plan9 ;)17:05
ccookejavispedro: bah!17:05
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RST38hFOUND IT!17:53
qwerty12Surely yours isn't that small?17:53
wazdqwerty12: snap! :D17:54
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RST38hit was a corporate one.17:55
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lardmanhey qwerty1217:56
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qwerty12Hi lardman :)17:56
lardmanlol @ you not recognising me :)17:56
lardmanI'm still on the front page afaict17:57
lardmanor maybe my cache needs a refresh :)17:57
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qwerty12Do I look like the sort of person that carries a magnifying glass around to be able to see tiny profile pics?  :)17:58
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qwerty12lardman: So, did anyone bypass lcuk's profanity filter? :)18:01
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RST38hwazd: Just saw something weird mentioned18:06
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RST38hwazd: Have you seen guys selling SIM card packages near subway stations?18:06
lardmanqwerty12: didn't try it actually :)18:07
lardmanhave a go this evening!18:07
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qwerty12:( - it was on the projectors outside as well. "Walk on, cunt" to all passers-by :)18:08
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RST38hqwerty: ehhehehe18:10
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wazdRST38h: yeah18:24
RST38h"Aerospace pioneer Burt Rutan said a few years ago that if we're not killing people, we're not pushing hard enough."18:24
RST38hwazd: The weird thing is, they are selling those SIMs without asking for ID18:25
pupnik_heh @ burt18:25
RST38hwazd: Has something changed?18:25
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wazdRST38h: dunno, never asked them :)18:26
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RST38hwazd: you probably wouldn't get a straight answer but it is weird as hell18:27
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wazdRST38h: I think they only sell some cheap contracts without ID requirement18:31
wazdRST38h: I saw they were sending some dude to the office itself18:31
Stskeepsor pay-as-you-go? :P18:31
wazdStskeeps: we have contract scheme called pay-as-you-go-breath-sleep-and-eat :D18:32
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lardmanif a microphone were present as a device file, say /dev/mic, could one use a GStreamer file src element to read from it?18:44
lardmanassuming that no ioctls are required to enable or set it up, that is18:44
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javispedrolardman: from looking at the src, it requires the fd to be seekable.18:48
lardmanhmm, not ideal18:48
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lardmanI'll have a look at the src lists and see if there's a special one there18:49
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javispedrolardman: ah, no, sorry18:49
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javispedroGST_LOG_OBJECT (src, "disabling seeking, not in mmap mode and lseek failed: %s", g_strerror (errno));18:49
lardmanah, so it might work18:49
lardmanhmm, will have to give it a go18:49
lardmanthanks :)18:49
javispedrommap refers to a gstfilesrc property18:50
lardmanmmap is disabled by default so I read18:50
javispedroah, ok18:50
zerojayJaffa: ping18:52
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lardmanhmm, I wonder if gstaudiosrc has to be subclassed18:54
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Jaffazerojay: pong18:54
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zerojayJaffa: got that account handy?18:57
qwerty12_berto_: Can I bribe you in infobot karma to please upload Vagalume to Fremantle's extras-devel. I miss it terribly :(18:57
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_berto_qwerty12: i haven't made the port yet :(19:01
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_berto_qwerty12: hopefully this month19:01
qwerty12Thanks :)19:01
_berto_the svn trunk comes with support btw19:02 doesn't have any artists that I like :)19:02
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Stskeepssinging stallman?19:03
qwerty12(Probably a good thing to the rest of you, I'm guessing, I'm always criticized on my choice of music no matter where I go..)19:04
_berto_that happens to me too19:04
* Stskeeps subscribes to and is happy.19:04
RST38hsinging rms vs ms piggy deathmatch19:05
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_berto_i'm a subscriber too19:05
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zerojayI used to be.19:06
zerojayBack when you got nothing in return.19:06
zerojayAnd now... Just the finger.19:06
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fralshmm, preordered my n900 from a swedish site, they have delivery date preliminiary as 30th of october19:10
fralshope they are just being cautious and setting a future one so it wont be delayed... or something ;o19:10
* mgedmin cries19:10
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pupnik_  everybody seen this 96 KiloBYTE demo/game?19:44
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luke-jrpupnik_: Windows = fail19:47
ccookeluke-jr: It remains an impressive thing to acheive.19:48
luke-jrccooke: what?19:49
luke-jra small filesize? when everyone has GBs of space?19:49
luke-jrit demands 512 MB RAM. that's where space saving is more needed19:50
derfFilesystem            Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on19:50
derf/dev/sda5              90G   90G   27M 100% /19:50
ccookeluke-jr: Why? When *everyone* has GBs of RAM? :-)19:50
javispedroccooke: well, my 1990 laptop doesn't, and the N900 does not either.19:50
derfI generally have more free RAM than diskspace.19:50
derfMem:   2072732k total,  1639800k used,   432932k free,    53052k buffers19:50
luke-jrccooke: most people here have at least one computer with merely 128 MB RAM19:50
ccookejavispedro: Technically, the n900 does...19:51
luke-jralso, RAM use adds up19:51
luke-jrccooke: technically, the N900 doesn't19:51
luke-jrswap may be memory, but it sure isn't RAM19:51
derf/dev/mtdblock4          251.5M    244.1M      7.4M  97% /19:51
ccookeluke-jr: Depends on which technicalities you're talking about19:51
derfMem: 111640K used, 15188K free, 0K shrd, 512K buff, 55556K cached19:51
derfStill twice as much free RAM as disk space.19:51
derfOn the N810.19:52
GAN800Passport done finally.19:52
Stskeepsso we'll see you in amsterdam? :)19:52
derfAnd that's not even counting cache, which is basically free RAM.19:53
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ShadowJKdoesn't it get slow with so little space left?19:53
lardmancu later chaps19:53
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ccookeluke-jr: The thing is, it remains an impressive thing to do. To manage it - even if they need moderate amounts of RAM - and 512M is *moderate* today - is not easy.19:53
ccookeHmm. Too many -s.19:53
Mozillionis it normal that the app manager in  maemo5 beta sdk is empty and the extras/extras-devel catalogues cannot be added?19:54
javispedroMozillion: fakeroot apt-get install fakeroot-net19:54
GAN800Stskeeps, assuming it gets here.19:54
ShadowJKccooke, 96k? Don't tell me they've given up with the 4k and 64k contest categories now? :)19:54
Mozillionjavispedro: oh!19:54
pupnik_that is a stunning achievement.  96kbyte.  sound.  3d engine.  textures.  game.19:54
ccookeShadowJK: those are impressive too. Often more so.19:54
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derfpupnik_: 3d engine? Does this one actually not use OpenGL?19:55
luke-jrpupnik_: they use DirectX19:55
ccookeShadowJK: Personally I love some of the 4K things.19:55
luke-jrderf: DirectX19:55
pupnik_ok right directx does a lot of the transforms for them19:55
Mozillionjavispedro: heh, wow.. that was simple.. thanks19:55
derfYeah. When you had your 4k demo with all-software rendering, it was impressive.19:55
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ShadowJKI know some guys who made a 64k demo. They squeezed in their own software synthesizer, to have better music than what directmusic gave :)19:55
Mozillionjavispedro: is it recommended that I not put extras/extras-devel in /etc/apt/sources.list then?19:55
* ShadowJK sighs19:55
ccookeShadowJK: heh, nice.19:56
ShadowJKfreenode :-)19:56
javispedroMozillion: do as you wish :)19:56
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zerojayGan800: same issue here.19:56
* mgedmin was very impressed by the 4K demo Atrium last year (iirc?)19:57
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ccookemgedmin: oh, I remember that one. Very nice.19:58
mgedminthe mp3 version of the soundtrack is 5 megs19:59
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ccookeIt's amazing what can be done20:00
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coldbootHow do I redirect away from scratchbox's gdb? I tried putting an entry in SBOX_REDIRECT_BINARIES, both ways, and it didn't work immediately after exporting the env variable.20:01
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coldbootI installed a good version of gdb in /usr/local/bin/gdb20:01
AnunakinI need some help on clone OS to SD, the problem is, I have one partition only on SD card and maemo stay to mount internal memory under first partition (and single) on  external SD, any know where to change on /etc files?20:01
javispedrocoldboot: using fully qualified path to launch gdb? scratchbox's utils are in $PATH20:02
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coldbootHow would I detect if I'm in scratchbox from within ~/.profile?20:04
mgedmincoldboot: env tells me that scratchbox sets a bunch of environment vars20:05
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mgedmine.g. _SBOX_DIR=/scratchbox20:05
coldbootYeah ~/.profile doesn't get executed when I start scratchbox, but somehow my custom PATH directives that are set in there get transferred...20:06
Anunakincoldboot: I make it on my sbox20:06
Anunakincoldboot: My ~/.profile has it:20:06
Anunakinexport PS1='\[\033[01;33m\]${target}\[\033[01;31m\] \W \$\[\033[00m\] '20:06
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mgedminwell ~/.profile inside scratchbox is different from the one outside20:07
Anunakinmy .profile works well20:07
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AnunakinI see it20:07
mgedminI thought maybe you were symlinking or bind-mounting them together20:07
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Anunakin"DIABLO_ARMEL pidgin-2.6.5-alfa $"20:07
Mozillionhrm, "hildon-desktop[4191]: GLIB CRITICAL ** Clutter - clutter_actor_destroy: CLUTTER_IS_ACTOR(0x9b5b710) FAILED" when clicking in the app manager on any app.. checking the BTS20:08
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Anunakincoldboot: Have you made another .profile insede sbox?20:12
coldbootAnunakin: I bind mounted my home directory so it's the same home inside scratchbox.20:13
coldbootMaybe someone should put gdb 6.8 in scratchbox, instead of 6.4, which can't break inside C++ constructors.20:14
AnunakinI never tried in this way, I have a folder "~/dev" bind mounted inside sbox20:15
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coldbootYeah just bind mount your whole home so it's like scratchbox 2.20:15
coldbootExcept don't use Scratchbox 2 because it barely works.20:15
Anunakinand update python 2.3 on sbox to 2.5 or newer, too20:16
mgedminI have a ~/scratchbox symlink pointing to /scratchbox/users/.../home/.../20:16
coldbootAlso don't `rm -rf` your scratchbox directory, because it'll trash your home directory, you have to unmount it first. I learned that the hard way.20:16
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AnunakinAnyone has a working google street url to use on maemo-mapper?20:18
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coldbootOkay this is retarded.20:18
coldbootScratchbox is intercepting my calls directly to /usr/local/bin/gdb20:19
mgedminAnunakin: does the one you get when you download repositories from the net stop working?20:19
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pupnik_is there a vmware image for n900 sdk?20:19
mgedminask a question, run away20:19
coldbootI did this: `cd gdb-6.8; gdb/gdb; (it says 6.8); cp gdb/gdb /usr/local/bin/gdb; /usr/local/bin/gdb; (it says 6.4, what the hell?)`20:19
Khertan_n810Hi ! (again)20:19
pupnik_hi Khertan_n81020:20
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Khertan_n810Content is not allowed in prolog << does this  gdata error message mean something for you ?20:20
mgedmincoldboot: SBOX_REDIRECT_FROM_DIRS=/bin:/usr/bin:/usr/local/bin20:20
Khertan_n810pupnik_ i didn t found any20:20
mgedmincoldboot: I suggest putting ~/bin in $PATH20:20
coldbootmgedmin: How do you edit that so it doesn't come up?20:20
Khertan_n810pupnik_ and my try was unsuccessfull20:20
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mgedmincoldboot: no clue, never tried this20:21
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Khertan_n810pupnik_ but if you do one, i ll be happy to use it :)20:21
mgedminI think I remember people blogging/posting to mailing lists about how to work around scratchbox binary redirection20:21
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mgedmindon't ask me for a link, though20:21
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mgedminthis thing I just recently saw when I was looking at env|sort inside scratchbox20:22
pupnik_Khertan_n810: asking for a vmware image is lame and lazy though.  i'd estimate not a lot of code has come out of them.20:22
mgedminI wonder if you can change those env vars and affect sb's behaviour while inside it20:22
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coldbootmgedmin: I put gdb in ~/bin, and ~/bin is in my path, and NOT in the redirect, and when I run gdb it's still redirected.20:22
coldbootSo it's redirecting literal calls that are supposed to resolve to PATH as well.20:22
mgedminis ~bin in front of $PATH or at the end?20:22
Khertan_n810Content is not allowed in prolog <<< arg and google search is unable to found me a valuable answer20:22
coldbootmgedmin: It's in front, which gdb says: ~/bin/gdb20:23
Khertan_n810pupnik_ ? i code on my nit and i still need a setup to test in a vm :)20:23
coldbootWhen I type ~/bin/gdb, it's correct, when I type gdb, it's wrong.20:23
coldbootScratchbox is such a piece of crap.20:23
pupnik_can you improve it??20:23
coldbootIt's got crappy, idiotic version of software installed for it, and you can't override anything.20:23
coldbootI'd rather just write software for a different platform.20:24
Khertan_n810pupnik_ improve what google search ?20:24
AnunakinBut I got gcc 4 working on another computer20:24
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ccookeHmm. People seen this?
Khertan_n810cooke craps !20:26
zerojayFries are done.20:26
AnunakinI compiled pidgin 2.6.2 here, I see it has video and audio suport now, but I need more updated libs20:27
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Khertan_n810zerojay ... each time i think about fries it remember me asking at a restaurant at the maemo summit : what is french fries20:27
ccookeReading it, it seems Nokia *may* be saying nothing new: It says "It would be absolutely incorrect to assume that we will not offer operators the ability to tailor future Maemo devices to suit their needs."20:27
ccooke... which we knew.20:27
* Khertan_n810 is french ... and fries arent french20:27
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zerojayYeah, "french" means "frenched", a way of cutting the fries.20:28
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Khertan_n810yep a bit like saying white chocolate .... this is not made with cocoa _)20:29
Khertan_n810Content is not allowed in prolog ... gdata really need more clear error msgs20:32
AnunakinI wants see my maemo loaing on text mode, how can I do it? any knows?20:36
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coldbootGreat, setting watchpoints in gdb 6.8 in Maemo hangs the program.20:48
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lardmanok, so this is probably old news, but what's with the Fremantle SDK error when installing on Ubuntu that goes like this?: E: Scratchbox bind mount for user not present.20:52
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lardmanhmm, can't even login and proceed manually: ERROR: Scratchbox is not properly set up!20:56
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fnordianslipinteresting - i've just been setting up my new sheevaplug and note that i can run powertop on it.  has anyone got powertop running on their N900s yet?21:11
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keesjfnordianslip: the janty port or something else?21:16
fnordianslipkeesj: yep, its jaunty on the plug21:17
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* keesj also has a plug (running this irc session :p )21:17
fnordianslipalthough it has a kernel21:18
fnordianslipooh. cool.  got mine today ;-)21:18
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keesjstill the default kernel
fnordianslipjust need the N900 to keep it company21:19
keesj32 day's uptime21:19
fnordianslipare you in #openplug too?21:20
Anunakinno where to buy N900?21:20
fnordianslipoh, i preordered with nokia in uk21:21
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keesjfnordianslip: no21:25
fnordianslipkeesj: have you tried booting from the SDHC card on the plug?  i'm tempted to run the installer again and get a rootfs on the SD card and use that instead of the MTD21:27
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keesjfnordianslip: no I have so many gadgets and projects ... all I really did wat a little jtag debugging on it and then put it in production21:30
keesjI did see picture of the back of the N900 when opened and there where many exposed test point. I wonder what they do21:30
fnordianslipkeesj: np.  me too.i have 5 computing devices within arms reach here in the lunge21:31
fnordiansliplounge, even21:31
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keesjthis was my last project a 100 euro arm laptop21:32
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hetzQuestion: If a developer wants to submit a new N900 app to OVI, is it possible?21:34
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mgedminhetz: if it's an open-source app, I'd suggest submitting it to Maemo Extras21:35
mgedminif it's not, then your question is interesting, but I've no clue about the answer21:35
mgedminAFAIU from watching various presentations that's the plan: have ovi distribute apps for maemo21:36
hetzand if it's closed? I'm trying to write a post comparing android/iphone/maemo submitting methods21:36
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mgedminI don't know if it's possible now, or if it will only become possible at some time in the future21:36
ShadowJKI heard the sd is a bit unreliable21:36
ShadowJKon sheeva21:36
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fnordianslipShadowJK: oh,right.  maybe i'll see if i can get away with cramming a build system into the MTD then, and mount an NFS share for source trees for builds21:38
Stskeepshm, was sheevaplug armv5 or armv6+vfp or armv7?21:39
Stskeepsi keep on forgetting21:39
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pupnik_i'm still impressed how much -fprofile-use helped amiga emu21:41
pupnik_i wish everybody tried it21:41
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keesjpupnik_: will do !21:44
ShadowJKfnordianslip, I'm using a USB hub and usb stick myself21:44
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Anunakinpupnik_: maybe it works on x48?21:48
fnordianslipShadowJK: I'll keep that in mind.  cheers21:48
ShadowJKI think the default uboot doesn't support SD also :)21:48
Anunakinbecause x48 works nice on Zaurus... and it runs very slow on N8xx21:48
javispedrois that the hp48 emu?21:49
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fnordianslipShadowJK: i guess i'm not using the default u-boot as I've installed with installer v1.021:49
javispedroit did run at an acceptable speed in my palm t|x21:49
Anunakinjavispedro: yes21:49
pupnik_i wish someone would figure out how to do 50 or 60hz vsync'd tear-free screen updates21:50
Anunakinjavispedro: I used on my PSP too21:50
Anunakinand at nice speed21:50
pupnik_at 1/2 res21:50
ShadowJKfnordianslip, btw, "ukki" here has a .deb for accessing sheevaplug with N8x0 through N8x0 host mode USB port to sheeva's debug port :)21:50
dottedmagAccessing sheeva from n900 would like like using phone while it is charging.21:51
dottedmag*look like21:51
fnordianslipShadowJK:  that's interesting21:51
slonopotamusSep 11 18:50:58 DSME: CAL ERROR: non-user block 'root_device' found in a user area21:52
keesjI want to plug my logic analyzer to maemo
Stskeepsslonopotamus: what'd you kill? :P21:52
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keesjmore using the nxxx to display logic signals21:53
slonopotamusStskeeps, everything works :) i learned how to write to CAL. the problem is that i'm choosing wrong places.21:53
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t_s_oso the mobile phone is slowly transforming itself into a mobile social portal...22:00
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t_s_oor maybe it have always been that way, its just that its gone beyond voice and text to also include images and video, especially from one to one onto one to many...22:01
* ShadowJK 's only use for the mobile phone since 2005 has been irc&internet in pocket22:01
t_s_oirc? highly dependant on screen size, especially if its a high traffic channel...22:01
ShadowJKt_s_o, my nearly-dead E70 could fit 80 columns of text :-)22:02
ShadowJKit was perfect for ssh too22:02
t_s_oi wonder about the font size then...22:02
ShadowJKa special 6pixel font ;)22:02
ShadowJKor 722:02
t_s_oheh, how long until one get phone docks with video out and keyboard/mouse in?22:03
ShadowJKYou know, right, that the N900 comes with TV-out cable as standard?22:03
RST38h(but not before N666 comes out)22:03
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t_s_oindeed i know, but i was thinking about a brick that had 1-2 cables to plug in, and 5-6 going out that was permanently attached to objects on the desktop...22:04
ShadowJKon N8x0 you can fit huge amounts of text with sane font sizes where there's enough pixels to eliminate ambiguity22:04
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ShadowJKah :P22:04
ShadowJKon my new E75 that I obtained to replace the nearly-dead E70, the screen resolution is less, so I have to use a font that's almost like block of pixels22:05
ShadowJKbut if you force yourself to use it, you quickly learn what the patterns are ;)22:05
RST38hShadowJK: You sound almost like you are using 3x5 font on Spectrum...22:06
ShellEvil3x5? Luxury!22:06
ShadowJKRST38h, well the resolution on S60 these days isn't much better than spectrum22:06
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ShadowJKS60v3 I mean22:07
ShadowJKS60v5 is a bit better, but software compatibility is a bit so-so I've heard22:07
RST38hsoftware is incompatible22:08
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ShadowJKheh :)22:08
* ShadowJK hugs maemo22:08
* dottedmag points at gtk->qt transition :)22:09
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ShadowJKdottedmag, there will be tar and feathers (and I know where they just made 1000 litres this summer) if they don't have a new osso-xterm ;)22:12
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pupnikThe Maemo tablets are now on par with high-end Nokia Nseries devices and soundly beat the pants off iPhones and Blackberries."  :)22:14
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RST38hthat we will have to see22:14
RST38hbut I still think that blackberry is not unreachable22:15
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RST38himplement same functionality, make deals with a few large companies, maybe supplying N900s as an added value in some larger contract on communication equipment22:16
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ShadowJKTheir existing customers of that kind will only buy it if it's Nokia's new "Communicator"-class. So they'd have to make a new N900, call it N9000, make it a bit bigger because the Communicator class is like americans and SUVs; screw practicality and logic, make it big and heavy so that people can see you paid stupid amounts of money22:18
ShadowJKwhere "a bit" means twice as big22:18
mgedminI always thought "tiny and shiny" screamed about stupid amounts of money22:18
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ShadowJKYeah if I had more money I'd get a Smart car22:19
mavhcput 2 apple logos on it, those things cost $100s each apparently22:19
fralsall the smarts ive seen around has screamed "death trap"22:19
RST38hblackberries are pretty small though22:19
mavhcfrals: only in usa where they're on the same road as the tanks people there drive22:20
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keesjpupnik: any good url about profile-use?22:20
fralsi wouldnt want to be in one crashing in to anything except maybe a fiat punto22:20
fralsany volvo would crush the smart as it seems to have about zero deformation zones22:21
ShellEvilIt is apparantly very rigid.22:21
mavhcif it killed you they couldn't sell it22:21
RST38hdoes smart do pretty well in crash tests?22:21
fralsonly seen the tiny 2 seaters thou - do they have any bigger model?22:21
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GAN800I bet the car does, but the people inside may be another issue.22:22
RST38hthere is smart-for-2 and smart-for-422:22
ShadowJKApparently smart has a five-star crash test rating22:22
RST38hout of 12?22:22
fralswhat does volvo have then, a 100? :D22:22
GAN800But only against other Smarts.22:23
ShellEvilIncluding 70MPH crash into a wall22:23
GAN800When you pit it against SUVs there's no data left to collect.22:23
ShellEvilR/C fun.22:23
mavhcare SUVs more wall like than walls?22:23
ShadowJKBut you know, take a Volvo in the US, bring it to europe for crash testing, and it probably gets two stars. Take a five-star volvo from europe to US for crash testing and it probably gets 2 stars. Car manufacturers are slimey assholes and only design the cars for the tests :-)22:23
GAN800mavhc, SUVs are moving.22:24
GAN800So, yes.22:24
RST38hGAN: Hate to disappoint you but there is a catch with US SUVs22:24
mavhcso you want a 140 mph wall crash test?22:24
RST38hGAN: Many of them are basically trucks with passenger cabs22:24
GAN800No, I want a practical car. :D22:24
GAN800RST38h, not many, most.22:24
RST38hGAN: Because they are rated as trucks, manufacturers can skip on safety22:24
RST38hGAN: Yep22:25
slonopotamuscal_read_block(wlan-iq-align): size zero, block not found?22:25
GAN800Only the very small ones like the RAV 4 and CRV are based on car platforms.22:25
RST38hGAN: And the ones that are not, have minivan-like problems (a hit into the side is really nad in them, as they expose big, soft surface on the sides)22:26
slonopotamushow i repair CAL area? :)22:26
ShadowJKIt's funny how bad SUVs are on bad roads22:26
GAN800RST38h, but you've completely missed the point of my SUV example.22:26
RST38hGAN: CRV is actually considered a truck22:26
fralshmm watch that smart vid22:26
GAN800It's an Accord frame.22:26
fralsnot much legs left after that concrete smash22:26
RST38hGAN: Dunno why, it is an Accord with the mechanics from 4WD Civic22:26
RST38hGAN: Real bad in side impact, unfortunately.22:27
GAN800The reason I mention the SUV is because those are the vehicless that you have to contend with in accidents here, not because I believe them to be safer vehicles. :)22:27
RST38hGAN: But yes, if you are hitting a Smart in a 3-ton SUV, Smart stands no chance22:27
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ShellEvilIf the impact speed is low enough that you care about body damage - to the car - you may well be OK22:30
ShadowJKlike that episode of mythbusters where they tried to smash a compact car by putting it in the middle between two semitrucks speeding towards eachother22:30
ShellEvilI mean - body deformation22:30
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ShellEvilIf you care about decelleration to the humans inside - then you need mass*crumplezones22:30
slonopotamusdoes n8x0 brick if you erase CAL data? :)22:31
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Stskeepspartition table is there22:31
mgedminevery time people talk about CAL, I assume it's about Maemo 5 calendaring software22:31
slonopotamusis it reflashable?22:31
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mgedminwhich makes some of the statements funny22:32
slonopotamusmgedmin, /dev/mtd3.22:32
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Stskeepsslonopotamus: i'm not sure if you are able to recover from a dead CAL, but i'm not sure22:34
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* Stskeeps personally wouldn't risk it22:35
slonopotamusStskeeps, didn't partition layout change in diablo?22:35
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slonopotamusmgedmin, mtd1 i meant22:36
Stskeepsslonopotamus: true22:39
slonopotamusStskeeps, did it change bootloader/config area?22:41
Stskeepsi have no idea tbh22:41
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slonopotamusmeh. i possibly should create cold flash cable before destroying stuff :)22:44
pupnikhope to see maemo on 150 euro phones someday22:44
lbtccooke: hi22:45
adeusas soon as the realize symbian is a dead end..22:45
RST38hwill they?22:45
lbtsymbian is being made OSS22:45
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* lbt thinks it will be handed over to "the community"22:46
adeus"the community" should burn it with fire22:46
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pupnikwho here has coded for symbian?22:46
lbtand used if nokia product managers deem it appropriate22:46
RST38hlbt: What is worse, judging from the new logo design, the remaining Symbian team is on some heavy drugs22:46
Stskeepswouldn't you be if you developed symbian?22:47
* lbt is just guessing from a symbian presentation I saw a few weeks ago22:47
* RST38h codes for symbian22:47
Stskeepsi meant, developing the system22:47
adeusI have22:47
adeusright now I code qt for the s6022:47
lbtRST38h:never mind.... you've got to make a good decision one day22:47
RST38hadeus: Have they finally introduced main()? =)22:47
RST38hOr is it still 4-5 classes just to show "hello world"?22:48
adeusof course it is22:48
adeusbut in qt it's happy campers22:48
zerojayIf he makes money on symbian still, how is it not a good decision?22:48
adeusthe make most of the money with s40:s22:48
* RST38h abstracted most of ÿï«ï½ÿï¸ÿÿÿ ÿÿÿï½22:49
RST38hSymbian away22:49
adeusright now I use the N97 which is the flagship of symbian probably22:49
adeusand it still feels and looks like a symbian thing22:50
adeuscompared to the N900 home screen this is bitch ass ugly22:50
ShadowJKOh, with tne N97 mini they made the rootfs bigger. Why isn't anyone whining about why "we" didn't get bigger rootfs on N900 ;p22:50
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RST38hS60 may be ugly, but it is perfectly usable22:50
ccookelbt: ah, you're back22:51
RST38hSo I would not bury it right away22:51
adeusand they won't22:51
ccookeS60 is a mature platform. Maemo simply can't compete with it in most of the niches it's deployed22:52
adeusand there's quite a lot of software for it done22:52
ccooke(small screen, cheap devices, for a start!)22:52
mgedminhow important is 3rd party software on a phone?22:52
mgedminare there any studies?22:52
RST38hMaemo is really easy to develop for so it is not that difficult to get it up to speed22:52
RST38hmgedmin: My crystal balls say 90% of people use phones to call other peple22:53
mgedmindo people buy devices because they can install random apps, or do they buy devices because the devices do what they want out of the box?22:53
adeuspersonally I want SportsTracker for my N900 :)22:53
mgedmingeeks like me buy devices because they run linux22:53
ccookeRST38h: but you don't make a change like that all at once. You do it piecemeal, and usually picking a starting point - say, high-end smartphones - and expanding.22:53
RST38hccooke: Hence 5-step plan22:53
ShellEvilOr high-end-unlocked-geek smartphones22:54
ccookeRST38h: more than that. Unless the wait for step 5 is much longer than they've mentioned, anyway22:54
ShadowJKmgedmin, if it came preinstalled with everything I wanted, maybe... nah.. besides, nobody would make phone with preinstalled ssh, vnc, irc, etc :P22:54
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ShellEvilIMO nokia has a bigger problem if they start too slow22:54
mgedminShadowJK: OpenMoko tried22:54
ShellEvilmgedmin: no, they diddn';t.22:54
RST38hmgedmin: this is actually relatively easy to estimate22:54
mgedminbut even I didn't want to buy that one...22:54
RST38hmgedminL look at sales of cheap voice-oriented phones vs sales of feature phone vs sales of smartphones22:55
ShellEvilmgedmin: They _really_ diddn't. OpenMoko claimed they were trying - however - they diddn't actually do sane things that would have lead to an actual product.22:55
ShadowJKif openmoko had a keyboard I'd probably have one22:55
ccookeShellEvil: thing is... remember that Nokia are still the world leader in phones.22:55
mgedminif openmoko had working software, I'd've bought one22:55
ShellEvilmgedmin: OpenMoko had hardware and software that could have lead to a working phone in christmas 2007.22:55
ccookeThey have enough of a lead to take it slowly... but not *too* slowly.22:55
mgedminsoftware is *hard*22:56
ShellEvilmgedmin: But they utterly blew it through bad managment.22:56
ccookeShellEvil: how unusual for a bunch of geeks :-/22:56
RST38hShellEvil: If mommy had balls she would be daddy22:56
mgedminlook how long it took for maemo to almost-not-suck22:56
ShellEvilmgedmin: by working software I mean stuff like a working dialer, SMS, ... and linux. I do not mean a fully polished app suite.22:56
adeusthat's a good stat always to remember :)22:56
ccookeadeus: yep22:57
adeusthat's almost insane22:57
mgedminokay, I admit I used the word "working" in the sense "fully polished"22:57
ShadowJKooh, Nokia 2100 :D22:57
ShellEvilRST38h: I'm attempting to point out that OpenMoko is a poor example due to their bad managment. For example changing window stacks 3 times. And insisting that new hardware would fix it all22:57
adeusat one point everyone in filnand had a 331022:57
mgedminalthough IIRC the phone software used to crash a lot, which is not "working" even by your definition22:57
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ShellEvilmgedmin: In march 2007 it was stable enough for me - then that software stack got thrown away22:58
RST38hShellEvil: Doesn't this happen to all linux gadget startups?22:58
ccookeRST38h: no, just the ones you hear about most ;-)22:58
ShellEvilRST38h: perhaps - this one had structural problems in the place they established - the corporate culture was _very_ anti-open-source.22:58
ShadowJKYou know what's awesome about nokia's lowend phones? They're indestructible. A guy at work lost his phone. He tracked his movements of the day, and concluded it must've fallen into the lake on his fishing trip. After some searching he found it on the bottom of the lake and fished it up, removed the battery and sim card and let it sit for a couple of days, put back the card and battery, and it just worked(tm)22:59
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RST38hhow did he find it?22:59
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mavhche didn't track the gps on a website22:59
ShellEvilRST38h: But - for example - a new UI stack getting dropped on the community - with the only notice being the company president a couple of months beforehand saying 'something really cool is coming up' - you have to _really_ try hard to screw up to that sort of degree.23:00
ShadowJKRST38h, it had fallen out near the shore when he lifted up the engine when the water became too shallow23:00
adeusShadowJK, I once dropped my 3310 into a pint of beer23:00
adeusdried it, and still worked just fine23:00
* ShadowJK once coughed on his siemens cellphone23:01
ccookeActually, my n810 has survived a fair bit of water23:01
frals3310 was indestructible23:01
ShadowJKit died23:01
ShadowJK(true story)23:01
ccookealthough not immersion :-)23:01
adeusI've visited the lab here that tests the durability23:02
adeusthey do quite a lot23:02
ShadowJKthere's a video of one of the labs, on youtube :)23:02
ccooke(I usually keep it in my shirt pocket... and got caught out by the most sudden and severe rainstorm I can remember... while I had both my hands full. Technically, it was under about an inch of water in my pocket (yes, literally) for about five minutes while I got to the tube station23:03
pupnik   new keymat23:03
ShadowJKthe highspeed camera view of the drop test is awesome :D23:03
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pupnikis there online video of n900 mp4 recordings?23:03
slonopotamushmm. usb<->rs232 cable is just $523:04
ccookea few days with the battery out, though, and it's absolutely fine. Although I'd swear the battery shrunk - it's a little loose, and I find now that I have to put a bit of wadded up paper in the compartment to stop a sudden knock powering me it off :-)23:04
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ccookeHow I didn't notice this before I have no idea. Thus I am left to conclude that it must have shrunk :-)23:05
ShellEvilWater isn't that bad. What I recommend is: Dissasemble as much as possible - wash in hot water with detergent - getting as much under the chips as you can. Rinse in hot distilled water. Dry in oven at 80C for a day.23:05
ShellEvilThis is of course if it's dirty or salty water.23:06
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ShadowJKccooke, did you have the typical rattle before immersion? :)23:06
ShellEvilAnd always yank the battery immediately23:06
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ccookeShellEvil: I was on my way to a LARP event. Campsite for three days. I just took the battery out and tried it again every now and then23:06
ShellEvilIf it's just clean water - then simply the oven step23:07
ShellEvilor a hot place with lots of airflow23:08
ShellEvilairing cupboard is good.23:08
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ccooke(actually, the level of brokenness was interesting to see: flickering brightness while it was still wet, then no backlight the first time I tried it, then flickering video on the way home... I thought for a while it was permanently broken, until I realised it was the battery being loose.23:08
ccookeShellEvil: distilled water helps, if you have it23:08
ShellEvilccooke: I have several bottles - from my dehumidifier.23:09
ShellEvilIt's not exactly the same thing - but it's pretty pure23:09
ShellEvil_lots_ higher resistance - fewer ionic solids - than my tapwater23:10
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