| lbt | she's *not* having a car | 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Proteous | hah | 00:03 |
| jeremiah_ | acouto: gcc | 00:04 |
| jeremiah_ | acouto: Do you want to compile C++ files on the device? | 00:04 |
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| jeremiah_ | acouto: Mightn't it be easier in the SDK? | 00:05 |
| acouto | yes | 00:05 |
| jeremiah_ | acouto: http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_5_beta_2_sdk/ | 00:06 |
| jeremiah_ | ^^ That is the link to the SDK. | 00:06 |
| jeremiah_ | It will make your life easier. | 00:06 |
| RST38h | he is looking for n810 | 00:06 |
| acouto | ill install scratchbox and the sdk | 00:06 |
| jeremiah_ | RST38h: Oh, you're right | 00:06 |
| RST38h | i.e. he needs diablo sdk | 00:06 |
| jeremiah_ | Sorry | 00:06 |
| jeremiah_ | http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_5_beta_2_sdk/ | 00:07 |
| jeremiah_ | shit | 00:07 |
| jeremiah_ | http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_4-1-2_diablo/ | 00:07 |
| RST38h | and I would suggest sdk+ instead | 00:07 |
| jeremiah_ | ^^ There we are | 00:07 |
| acouto | ok... | 00:07 |
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| acouto | thanks jeremiah and RST38h | 00:08 |
| RST38h | acouto: Try this one: http://maemo-sdk.garage.maemo.org/install.html | 00:08 |
| RST38h | acouto: It is saner than the original sb1 | 00:08 |
| qwerty12_N810 | It is? | 00:09 |
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| RST38h | qwerty: Well you do not need NFS to access your files, that I consider saner =) | 00:09 |
| qwerty12_N810 | :) | 00:09 |
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| RST38h | afaik, it has still got some problems with transparent debugging, but if you copy+test on the device, this issue never arises | 00:10 |
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| javispedro | RST38h, does it still do that long I-don't-know-what-it's-for process enumerating all installed debian packages everytime you modify the dpkg database? | 00:13 |
| javispedro | (sb2) | 00:13 |
| javispedro | it nearly took a full hour in this machine, and made debugging packaging a pain. | 00:14 |
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| Jaffa | Anyone in the UK watching Derren Brown at 22:35? | 00:20 |
| SpeedEvil | no, are you on it? | 00:20 |
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| Jaffa | No, he's predicting the lottery numbers about 5 minutes before they're drawn (apparently) | 00:22 |
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| Jaffa | I'm abroad so can't watch | 00:22 |
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| SpeedEvil | ah | 00:24 |
| SpeedEvil | No host in the UK? | 00:24 |
| SpeedEvil | I mean to run get_iplayer on | 00:25 |
| mfinkle | is strace available on maemo 5? | 00:25 |
| Jaffa | SpeedEvil: Oh, I can watch it off BBC Redux tomorrow | 00:26 |
| SpeedEvil | oh - channel 4 | 00:27 |
| SpeedEvil | oops | 00:27 |
| SpeedEvil | Jaffa: I think it's probably safe to say 'no he can't. | 00:27 |
| Jaffa | SpeedEvil: Well, he's the first to admit it'll be a trick/misdirection and is going to explain how he did/intended to do it on Friday | 00:28 |
| SpeedEvil | Jaffa: Audience mislead about the current time - job done | 00:29 |
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| SpeedEvil | Or you have several hundred million audience members - tell them all a different number - and silently kill and remove all the ones you told the non-winning numbers to. | 00:30 |
| Jaffa | But it's being broadcast live. So you can watch him predict the numbers and then switch to BBC One and watch the draw, live. | 00:30 |
| Jaffa | SpeedEvil: That'd work ;-) | 00:31 |
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| lardman | re | 00:35 |
| lardman | bloody Derren Brown | 00:35 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: he's less annoying than the gitwizard. | 00:36 |
| lardman | if he were that good he wouldn't need a blue screen advert to walk across the traffic | 00:36 |
| SpeedEvil | Marginally. | 00:36 |
| lardman | :) | 00:36 |
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| SpeedEvil | Though that did produce some comedy gold. - Blain in the box. | 00:37 |
| SpeedEvil | People flying model helis with burgers attached round him. | 00:37 |
| lardman | yeah I heard about that :) | 00:38 |
| lardman | he's still a tw*t though | 00:38 |
| Jaffa | Yeah, but he's still a gitwizard | 00:38 |
| Jaffa | At least Derren Brown doesn't appear to take himself too seriously | 00:38 |
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| lardman | I wouldn't know, have to change the channel whenever his annoying adverts come on :) | 00:40 |
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| Jaffa | :) | 00:40 |
| lardman | so in fact ch4, or whoever it is, are doing themselves a disservice there, I don't watch their ads ;) | 00:40 |
| Jaffa | Ah, apparently (according to Twitter) he's going to show his predictions after the draw | 00:41 |
| ShadowJK | magic is like sofware, full of hacks that create the illusion that shit works | 00:41 |
| javispedro | that would be engineering | 00:42 |
| javispedro | :) | 00:42 |
| lardman | oi, leave engineers out of it :p | 00:42 |
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| ShadowJK | random number of the day: power consumption of N800 tethered to Nokia E70, N800 running rsync over gprs at 5kByte/s to mmc1, screen off: 60mA | 00:44 |
| lardman | +1 for the randomness :) | 00:45 |
| ShadowJK | the low power consumption continues to amaze me | 00:45 |
| SpeedEvil | that's damn good | 00:46 |
| RST38bis | at 1500mah you could rsync for 25 hours | 00:46 |
| SpeedEvil | @5v? | 00:46 |
| SpeedEvil | oh - usb | 00:46 |
| SpeedEvil | Oh - the connection is over USB | 00:46 |
| ShadowJK | at li-ion voltages | 00:46 |
| Proteous | probably bluetooth | 00:46 |
| SpeedEvil | that's not so great then | 00:46 |
| ShadowJK | over bluetooth. | 00:46 |
| RST38bis | but do add e70 consumption | 00:46 |
| SpeedEvil | Oh - I was assuming that was tethered by USB and measured on USB | 00:46 |
| SpeedEvil | not bad indeed. | 00:47 |
| ShadowJK | RST38bis: no way to measure :) | 00:47 |
| ShadowJK | it's warm and on the charger | 00:47 |
| Proteous | sure, huck up some leads to the battery connections | 00:47 |
| Proteous | hook | 00:47 |
| ShadowJK | e70 has the older s60 os before energy profiler support | 00:47 |
| merkuralex_ | Who here plans to buy a n900? | 00:47 |
| * ShadowJK | 00:47 | |
| Proteous | me... at some point | 00:48 |
| ShadowJK | yeah at some point | 00:48 |
| Proteous | just need a buyer for my n97 | 00:48 |
| GAN8001_ | Depends on discount programs and AT&T 3G support. | 00:48 |
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| * GeneralAntilles mutters evil things about Comcast. | 00:48 | |
| merkuralex_ | ...yeah i want to but it would have to drop in price alot and i would need AT&T 3g support... | 00:48 |
| Proteous | fuc att | 00:48 |
| merkuralex_ | well not alot in price probably like 100$ | 00:48 |
| ShadowJK | proteus: yeah I thought it'd be a year still before n900 and had bought a e75 | 00:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | Proteous, no T-Mobile 3G support in my area. | 00:48 |
| merkuralex_ | where i live t-mobile is complete crap | 00:48 |
| Proteous | yeah, me either. but there will be soon | 00:49 |
| merkuralex_ | i get literally not t-mobile signal basically everywhere i have gone | 00:49 |
| Proteous | tmobile is installing a new cell about 1000ft from my house :P | 00:49 |
| merkuralex_ | no* | 00:49 |
| merkuralex_ | well then your lucky lol | 00:49 |
| ShadowJK | I think I'm skipping preorder and waiting for availability in shops... my operator also said they'd offer it so I'm waiting to see what they come up with | 00:50 |
| fbj | speaking of which, but I was wondering if you could help me out... I use a usb stick to carry my data files between home and work, giving easy access to everything wherever I need (and Eee for commuting). Is there a chance of N900/Maemo supporting usb data access as-is either at launch or in the future, like a proper computer? So that I could access and edit .txt files etc... | 00:50 |
| Proteous | yeah, I'm not going to preorder one like I did my n97 | 00:50 |
| lardman | what was the conclusion on uk tariffs? O2 payt? | 00:50 |
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| merkuralex_ | im tempted to get my n810 back out and play with it again... i was going to sell it on ebay but i really would miss it lol | 00:50 |
| lardman | or O2 30day even? | 00:50 |
| SpeedEvil | fbj: yes | 00:50 |
| Proteous | well, unless there is a preorder bug like there was with my n97... | 00:50 |
| SpeedEvil | fbj: simply plug a stick in - with an adaptor - and it can access it like a proper computer. | 00:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | fbj, should be really easy with the proper OTG adaptor. | 00:51 |
| fbj | really? | 00:51 |
| fbj | I think that made my day then :) | 00:51 |
| SpeedEvil | fbj: more wackily - setup the right USB gadget driver - and the n900 can be your memory stick | 00:51 |
| fbj | is N900 the first phone that supports this then? | 00:51 |
| johnsq | fbj: your usb stick should not need more than 100ma | 00:51 |
| SpeedEvil | fbj: no | 00:51 |
| Proteous | my n97 works great as a USB stick | 00:51 |
| ShadowJK | speedevil: though there have been reports of it not working | 00:51 |
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| SpeedEvil | fbj: my Openmoko neo1973 works both ways - device and host | 00:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | fbj, yes, you'll want to avoid USB sticks with giant LEDs. | 00:51 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: yeah - but with more testers - barring actual hardware problems... | 00:52 |
| fbj | heh... yeah. sounds good enough | 00:52 |
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| ShadowJK | I wonder if the usb charging means it can't supply power out anymore | 00:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | ShadowJK, sure it can, at 100mA as always. | 00:52 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: shouldn't | 00:52 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: openmoko freerunner can do 500mA powering stuff | 00:52 |
| ShadowJK | iirc on n810 there's a dedicated chip for the usb power out | 00:53 |
| SpeedEvil | (and charge from the same port) | 00:53 |
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| ShadowJK | and on 770 from what ive read it couldnt provide power | 00:53 |
| ShadowJK | but people worked around it with hubs providing power in both directions | 00:53 |
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| ShadowJK | what *will* work out of the box for sure is n900 as usb stick. Connect it to your eee, and it shows up as 32-ish gig drive | 00:55 |
| Mek | if/when you enable mass storage mode on your n900, by default it only charges I think | 00:56 |
| ShadowJK | My personal guess would be that it does like s60, pops up a dialog asking you what to do | 00:56 |
| Mek | yeah | 00:57 |
| * Jaffa can answert this without supposition. | 00:57 | |
| Mek | that's true | 00:57 |
| Jaffa | You plug a USB cable into the N900. If it is just connected to a power adapter, it charges. | 00:57 |
| ShadowJK | jaffa: surely not | 00:57 |
| Jaffa | If it is connected to a computer, it starts charging and asks if you want USB mass storage or PC suite. Tap outside the box for charging only | 00:57 |
| ShadowJK | you need the special cables with shorted datapins, right? | 00:58 |
| lardman | ah, good it asks | 00:58 |
| ShadowJK | just power over usb shouldn't start charging | 00:58 |
| Jaffa | If you have a USB OTG cable (or adapter), I *assume* it works. | 00:58 |
| Jaffa | ShadowJK: Of course it should. MicroUSB is the new cross-manufacturer charging plug standard. | 00:58 |
| * ShadowJK tested on Nokia e75 and it didn't charge with just power applied | 00:58 | |
| ShadowJK | yeah and that standard says a charger identifies itself by shorting the datapins | 00:59 |
| Jaffa | ShadowJK: I *assure* you that just power applied charges the N900. There are two sockets on it: 3.5mm headphone/AV socket and microUSB. | 00:59 |
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| Jaffa | ShadowJK: And I said if it was connected to a power adapter. What that power adapter sends down the cable is of no concern to me. | 01:00 |
| SpeedEvil | Oooh - 3.5mm. | 01:00 |
| SpeedEvil | The power adaptor shorts the D+ and D- pins | 01:00 |
| Jaffa | It doesn't ask you what to do with it, as it doesn't recognise a USB compatible host at the other end | 01:00 |
| SpeedEvil | to tell the phone it's a charger | 01:00 |
| SpeedEvil | (well - device) | 01:00 |
| Jaffa | Right. | 01:00 |
| SpeedEvil | To tell the device it's a charger | 01:01 |
| Jaffa | This works with off-the-shelf mains USB charger adapters, the MicroUSB-terminated charger which ships with it and normal USB connections to laptops | 01:01 |
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| ShadowJK | yeah so it doesn't charge if you've got, for example, powered usb hub not attached to computer. There is power, but nobody is talking on the data lines, and they aren't shorted, so no charge | 01:01 |
| ShadowJK | the usb charger adapters have shorted data lines of course. | 01:02 |
| javispedro | shouldn't it trickle charge then? | 01:02 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: Trickle charging from a suspended bus would be bad. | 01:02 |
| Jaffa | as if it were connected to a computer? | 01:02 |
| GAN800 | S60 IRC. Finally. | 01:02 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: you should be able to detect the difference though. | 01:02 |
| javispedro | while connected to a hub not connected to a computer. | 01:03 |
| SpeedEvil | hub not connected to a computer doesn't assert any particular value on the datalines - it tristates them | 01:03 |
| SpeedEvil | at least on the one that I measured | 01:03 |
| ShadowJK | anyway, n900 comes with small-nokia-plug to microusb adapter, which has datalines shorted, so that took care of my biggest interoperability concerns | 01:04 |
| * ShadowJK had no motivation for butchering and soldering usb cables for his external batterypacks | 01:04 | |
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| lardman | Anyone use 3 here as their provider? | 01:05 |
| SpeedEvil | sort-of | 01:05 |
| lardman | their sim-only offers have a dash where it should state "Internet allowance", what does that mean? | 01:05 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: you're looking at the wrong one | 01:06 |
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| SpeedEvil | lardman: look over to the right | 01:06 |
| lardman | pay as you go? | 01:06 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: that offers a 150M allowance for 90 days - that doesn't time out. | 01:06 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: however - I haven't actually managed to get ppp connecting with this in my 3 modem bought off ebay. It fails after CHAP success | 01:07 |
| lardman | hmm, still cheaper with O2 or Tmobile from the looks of it though | 01:07 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: I recommend however not 3 | 01:07 |
| lardman | assuming I'll use more than 150Mb in 3 months | 01:07 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: vodaphone | 01:07 |
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| SpeedEvil | lardman: tenner gets you a gig - which doesn't timeout | 01:08 |
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| lardman | hmm, would be interesting to know how much data people actually use on these phones | 01:08 |
| SpeedEvil | I got one of these - http://shop.vodafone.co.uk/shop/mobile-broadband-devices/usb-modem-stick-topup-and-go?compatible=false | 01:08 |
| SpeedEvil | oops | 01:08 |
| SpeedEvil | I just realised you probably also want to use it as an actual phone | 01:08 |
| * zerojayPC starts his reign of terror? | 01:08 | |
| SpeedEvil | I'm not sure this SIM supports this. | 01:08 |
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| lardman | yeah, np | 01:09 |
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| lardman | the phone deals are cheaper but less data iirc | 01:09 |
| lardman | gig for a tenner, hmm | 01:09 |
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| lardman | I'm currently switching to Vodafone payg, so that I can switch to £10/month 30day contract; though I might reconsider | 01:10 |
| merkuralex_ | Is Mer going to support Maemo 5 apps? | 01:10 |
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| SpeedEvil | lardman: that was 15/G - not 10/G I was wrong. Oh - and the 'mobile broadband' thing doesn't seem to work for phonecalls - you need a pay monthly contract and 15 quid/mo for 3Gig/mo - as far as I can see (voda) | 01:14 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: http://online.vodafone.co.uk/dispatch/Portal/appmanager/vodafone/wrp?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=template10&pageID=MB_0022 | 01:14 |
| lardman | I think you can get a 1G/month bolt on for £5/month | 01:14 |
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| b-man16 | ~seen xnt14 | 01:15 |
| infobot | xnt14 <n=xnt14@pool-98-113-71-238.nycmny.fios.verizon.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 21h 19m 9s ago, saying: 'finally, its up.... ;)'. | 01:16 |
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| b-man16 | x_x | 01:16 |
| lardman | http://online.vodafone.co.uk/dispatch/Portal/appmanager/vodafone/wrp?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=templateBlank&pageID=MI_0001 | 01:16 |
| lardman | Value pack | 01:16 |
| SpeedEvil | Ah - right. | 01:16 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: 5/mo for 500M | 01:17 |
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| lardman | oh right | 01:17 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: annoying of course you can't bolt the same rates as you get for the USB stick on the phone tarrif | 01:17 |
| lardman | yeah | 01:17 |
| lardman | so how much data do people actually use? | 01:18 |
| lardman | Jaffa, lcuk2: how much have you guys used thus far? | 01:18 |
| SpeedEvil | Gonna depend on what you do. | 01:18 |
| lardman | true | 01:18 |
| lardman | shame I can't store it up for when I need it :) | 01:19 |
| SpeedEvil | If I'm using the computer normally - I am bouncing around 100M/day | 01:19 |
| SpeedEvil | If I'm streaming - I hit gigs | 01:19 |
| lardman | yeah but a phone, even a very smart phone won't use that much | 01:19 |
| SpeedEvil | of course | 01:19 |
| SpeedEvil | but still the same applies | 01:19 |
| lardman | but still, if it's in the 20-30Mb/day, it's going to add up | 01:19 |
| SpeedEvil | Checking email - or streaming The Sky At Night. | 01:19 |
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| * SpeedEvil needs to get his web compressor done. | 01:20 | |
| lardman | I have wifi at work & home, so I will only really need it when I'm out and about, not sure how much that will be in truth | 01:20 |
| lardman | yuck, nasty photos with those things | 01:20 |
| lardman | resampled, etc | 01:20 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: not quite doing that. | 01:21 |
| lardman | compressing the text data? | 01:21 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: A) Device has large cache - say 100M or so. | 01:21 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: B) Device only connects to proxy server | 01:21 |
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| SpeedEvil | lardman: C) proxy server has a copy of devices cache | 01:21 |
| lardman | ah ok | 01:21 |
| lardman | so only send stuff that is actually new | 01:21 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: D) Any pages device requests are sent as diffs | 01:21 |
| SpeedEvil | yeah | 01:21 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: ebay.co.uk - changes everytime you load it. So simple 'is it new' won't work. | 01:22 |
| SpeedEvil | But diffs are tiny - 0.5K or under out of 60K | 01:22 |
| lardman | nice idea | 01:22 |
| SpeedEvil | Compared to maybe 15K by just compressing. | 01:22 |
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| SpeedEvil | Add to that stuff like converting jpegs to progressive jpegs - and sending only the first 1/8th - if user asks | 01:23 |
| lardman | yeah that's a good idea | 01:23 |
| SpeedEvil | Or more funkily - user requests page - and cache notices completely unrelated page has large chunks of same code - and sends it diffed from that unrelated page | 01:23 |
| jaska | also one could use the deviceside cache as a compression dictionary assist | 01:23 |
| SpeedEvil | jaska: that's the basic idea. | 01:24 |
| SpeedEvil | jaska: you're using the large shared dictionary - the cache - as the context for the compression. | 01:24 |
| jaska | yea | 01:24 |
| lardman | have to replicate the cache emptying on the PC too then | 01:24 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: yes - this wouldn't be a normal browser cache - but some sort of caching proxy. | 01:25 |
| lardman | though that's easy enough, all open source | 01:25 |
| lardman | ah of course | 01:25 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: at least initially - building it into browser eventually would make sense - but unless you could deploy it onto all servers - and you can't - you're going to need a proxy for the forseeable future. | 01:26 |
| SpeedEvil | (can't deploy onto servers as it requires them to store the last several days/weeks context for every user) | 01:26 |
| lardman | bring on holographic storage! | 01:27 |
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| SpeedEvil | Screw that - bring on inexpensive fast internet - and I wouldn't have to code stuff. | 01:27 |
| lardman | hmm interesting, vodafone payg charges up to 50p/day for a max of 25Mb | 01:27 |
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| SpeedEvil | t-mobile do up to 2 pounds - but for a lot more data | 01:28 |
| lardman | just thinking that on the ocassions I don;t have wifi, I probably won't need much data | 01:29 |
| SpeedEvil | yeah | 01:29 |
| SpeedEvil | I rarely have occasions when I have to watch 17 youtube videos in a row. | 01:30 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: especially given you have 32/64G on the device stored | 01:30 |
| lardman | it would be good if Vodafone had just let me change my plan and keep my number, rather than arsing about as usual | 01:30 |
| lardman | :) | 01:30 |
| lardman | normally just want the cricket results and to check my emails, some maps, etc | 01:31 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: I think you can port your number to O2/... - then back to voda | 01:32 |
| SpeedEvil | insane | 01:32 |
| lardman | ouch ~£5/25Mb no matter which deal for data abroad w/ Vodafone | 01:32 |
| lardman | SpeedEvil: well they've changed it, or rather are changing it to payg, then I understand they will be willing to change it up to a monthly contract | 01:33 |
| lardman | madness! | 01:33 |
| SpeedEvil | err | 01:33 |
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| SpeedEvil | I'm sure tehre was a 'never pay more abroad' or something | 01:34 |
| SpeedEvil | or maybe that diddn't include data | 01:35 |
| lardman | I think they've dropped the normal phone call/sms costs, but data is still up there | 01:35 |
| lardman | hmm, can't see any detail about O2 bolt-on packages... | 01:36 |
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| SpeedEvil | data prices are a lot better than they were in the UK - but still got some way to go | 01:38 |
| lardman | hmm, T-mob looks decent too: 30day contract, 600min, unlimited texts, 1Gb/month data | 01:39 |
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| lardman | for £20 | 01:39 |
| SpeedEvil | I went with voda as I wasn't needing calls - and doesn't expire | 01:40 |
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| lardman | I use ~£15/month on calls & texts, so payt isn't really very good for me | 01:41 |
| SpeedEvil | skype not an answer I assume? | 01:41 |
| lardman | no, calling other mobiles mainly | 01:42 |
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| Davide | Jaffa, hi | 01:43 |
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| dantonic | Jaffa, thanks for your help man... I just changed fstab and am rebooting right now... gonna see if I can exec from mmc1 | 01:44 |
| dantonic | can fstab be reloaded without having to reboot? | 01:45 |
| SpeedEvil | you can manually mount or remove filesystems | 01:46 |
| dantonic | SpeedEvil, how would I do that? | 01:46 |
| dantonic | just mount | 01:46 |
| SpeedEvil | mount /dev/foo /mnt/bar | 01:46 |
| SpeedEvil | ur umount /dev/foo | 01:46 |
| dantonic | ah ok | 01:46 |
| dantonic | :P | 01:46 |
| lardman | so what is HSDPA? 2G or 3G? | 01:46 |
| SpeedEvil | with any options you want | 01:46 |
| SpeedEvil | 3g | 01:46 |
| dantonic | lardman, 3g | 01:46 |
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| dantonic | ok | 01:47 |
| dantonic | <---- Linux noob | 01:47 |
| lardman | thanks | 01:47 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: GPRS/EDGE is 2G data | 01:47 |
| lardman | so T-mobile have no coverage in Bath for 3G services | 01:47 |
| dantonic | I wish tmobile would provide better coverage already... I have so many dead spots! | 01:47 |
| SpeedEvil | Wacky. I have coverage in my tiny little village in scotland. | 01:48 |
| dantonic | and not just 3G totally dead spots! | 01:48 |
| dantonic | I'm in USA | 01:48 |
| lardman | hmm, or their map is knackered (or my eyes), not even coverage in Londinium | 01:48 |
| lardman | http://www.t-mobile.co.uk/services/coverage/street-check/ | 01:48 |
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| merkuralex_ | yeah tmobile claims to have AMAZING coverage where i live i tried them for a bit... complete crap | 01:49 |
| lardman | ah, wrong tab, rubbish page | 01:49 |
| lardman | strange how the foothills in Wales have such good T-mobile coverage | 01:51 |
| lardman | for the SAS men to check the cricket scores no doubt :) | 01:52 |
| SpeedEvil | lardman: Lack of NIMBYs | 01:52 |
| lardman | yeah | 01:52 |
| lardman | well my only conclusion is that the maps don't really tell you much :) | 01:53 |
| lardman | do payt phones ever expire? | 01:54 |
| lardman | if you don;t put any credit on them, and only use them to receive calls, do they continue working forever? | 01:54 |
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| lardman | righty ho, bed time, night all | 02:00 |
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| Macer | blah | 02:05 |
| Macer | installing flash | 02:05 |
| Macer | it has been a nuisance to not have it | 02:06 |
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| zerojay | GeneralAntilles: It sounds like I missed some major stuff during the ITT -> TMO transition. | 03:02 |
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| GeneralAntilles | New Hubble images are out: http://www.hubblesite.org/ | 03:12 |
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| GeneralAntilles | More specifically: http://www.hubblesite.org/newscenter/archive/releases/2009/25/image/ | 03:13 |
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| MaceN8x0 | hehe | 03:24 |
| MaceN8x0 | true blood is great | 03:25 |
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| Crying-wolf | wow.. that's a lot of people o.o | 03:38 |
| zerojay | Hi. :) | 03:39 |
| Crying-wolf | hi | 03:39 |
| Crying-wolf | does anyone know something more about the frets on fire port ? :P i couldn't find anything less than someone has ported it on google and maemo.org :S | 03:40 |
| Crying-wolf | i wanna make a mini guitar by chopping up a usb keyboard, and plug it in by the usb host package ^^ | 03:40 |
| Crying-wolf | found it :P nvmd :P | 03:43 |
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| vladovg | hi | 03:43 |
| Crying-wolf | hi | 03:44 |
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| SpeedEvil | Crying-wolf: wii-guitar? | 03:58 |
| Crying-wolf | no | 03:58 |
| Crying-wolf | making one from wood, and using a usb keyboard controller :) | 03:59 |
| SpeedEvil | Umm - why | 03:59 |
| SpeedEvil | a keyboard controler is insane. | 03:59 |
| SpeedEvil | What are you hoping to do with this? | 04:00 |
| Crying-wolf | killing some time... :p | 04:00 |
| SpeedEvil | In that keyboard controllers have many limits that will probably bite you | 04:00 |
| zerojay | It's a cool idea... it's just kind of too bad that Frets on Fire isn't very good. :/ | 04:00 |
| merkuralex_ | what phones do yall have and do you use data from your phone via your n810/n800? | 04:00 |
| Crying-wolf | i think its a good idea... the problem is ... how will it run on maemo ? :P | 04:00 |
| zerojay | No separation of tracks... what's the point if you can't hear your missing notes? Heh. | 04:01 |
| Crying-wolf | ii don't hava a phone yet... i ordered the n900 :P | 04:01 |
| SpeedEvil | I have a openmoko neo1973, and no n800/810 | 04:01 |
| zerojay | merkuralex_: N95 and yes, I do use it to tether data for my N800 almost exclusively. | 04:01 |
| zerojay | Er. | 04:01 |
| zerojay | N810. | 04:01 |
| merkuralex_ | Crying-Wolf: ahh... lucky lol i wish i had the money to use on that. | 04:02 |
| merkuralex_ | zerojay: how is the speed and what service do you have? | 04:02 |
| Crying-wolf | lol:P | 04:02 |
| Crying-wolf | i don't have it yet | 04:02 |
| Crying-wolf | its not available over here yet | 04:02 |
| merkuralex_ | yeah i know i was asking zerojay :D | 04:03 |
| Crying-wolf | lol ok :p | 04:03 |
| zerojay | merkuralex_: I'm only on EDGE... I guess because I'm on Rogers and my N95 is probably European so... speed's probably not the best thing for me to talk about. :) | 04:03 |
| merkuralex_ | SpeedEvil:is that the open source phone or whatever? | 04:03 |
| merkuralex_ | zerojay: ahh okay :D | 04:04 |
| SpeedEvil | merkuralex_: yes | 04:04 |
| merkuralex_ | SpeedEvil: how is it? | 04:04 |
| MaceN8x0 | holy shit true blood is a riot | 04:04 |
| MaceN8x0 | rogers probably uses tmobs oddball freq heh | 04:05 |
| MaceN8x0 | my n95 worked with att 3G | 04:05 |
| MaceN8x0 | then again. it was n95-3 | 04:05 |
| zerojay | I don't think any Canadian provider does TMobile's freqs. | 04:05 |
| MaceN8x0 | heh | 04:06 |
| MaceN8x0 | ah well | 04:06 |
| zerojay | I'm with the N95-1. Surprised how bad the battery life is. Glad I only got it for $80. | 04:06 |
| MaceN8x0 | no att or tmob in canada? | 04:06 |
| zerojay | No. | 04:06 |
| merkuralex_ | zerojay: lol how did you get it that cheap? | 04:06 |
| MaceN8x0 | i guess a country with 30million... | 04:06 |
| MaceN8x0 | no market | 04:06 |
| SpeedEvil | merkuralex_: Done right, in christmas 2007 - the hardware I have with the OS that was sort-of-working in march 2007 could have been a basic phone, which worked, but was not pretty, and ran any linux app you wanted. | 04:07 |
| zerojay | I work for a videogame company and we used to work in cell phone games. When we fully switched over to consoles, we sold off our inventory internally. | 04:07 |
| zerojay | We had something like 500 phones. | 04:07 |
| zerojay | All sorts of protos. | 04:07 |
| SpeedEvil | merkuralex_: It was not done right - openmoko - the company - made many poor decisions. | 04:07 |
| zerojay | Cingular would send our NYC office new phones weekly... we'd have them for two weeks... but I was making the ports here in Canada, so I would do so many of them completely blindly. | 04:07 |
| merkuralex_ | SpeedEvil: ahh that sucks i was actually interested in it. | 04:07 |
| SpeedEvil | merkuralex_: the software is actually more-or-less usable at this point | 04:08 |
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| merkuralex_ | I wish the n900 was 100$ish cheaper | 04:09 |
| merkuralex_ | then again its way cheaper then a crappy iphone unlocked | 04:09 |
| SpeedEvil | merkuralex_: The company - openmoko - had many things not in its favour - they were up against a very hostile to open-source buisness culture where they were primarily - hong kong - and had poor communications to the community | 04:09 |
| SpeedEvil | merkuralex_: Also - many decisions - focusing on new hardware while not getting fundamental kernel level services working... | 04:10 |
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| merkuralex_ | SpeedEvil: so your saying its bad? lol | 04:10 |
| SpeedEvil | So no average-level-hackers could actually use it as a reliable phone... | 04:10 |
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| SpeedEvil | merkuralex_: I'm saying that now it is in the state it would have been - perhaps in feb 2008 - given some consistency in approach by the company doing it. All IMO of course. | 04:11 |
| merkuralex_ | SpeedEvil: oh okay. | 04:12 |
| merkuralex_ | Does anyone here have a nokia 5800? | 04:12 |
| zerojay | merkuralex_: Why? | 04:12 |
| merkuralex_ | zerojay: Just wondering how it is... im seeking a new phone that is not too expensive ye has good features | 04:13 |
| merkuralex_ | of course in the end i will probably just go buy a n900... | 04:13 |
| merkuralex_ | can't resist the urge lol | 04:13 |
| merkuralex_ | considering that im on the maemo irc i should probably stop talking about phones eh? | 04:14 |
| zerojay | lol | 04:15 |
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| GeneralAntilles | merkuralex_, it sucks. | 04:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | Pretty decent for a Symbian phone, I guess | 04:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | But compared to a Maemo device it sucks. | 04:31 |
| zerojay | We can say that line for every device on the market. lol | 04:31 |
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| merkuralex_ | Haha. | 04:33 |
| merkuralex_ | Yeah im thinking i might have to get an n900 lol | 04:33 |
| Crying-wolf | god its taking so long >.< | 04:33 |
| merkuralex_ | Crying-wolf: what is? | 04:33 |
| Crying-wolf | the n900 :P i want it now! :P | 04:34 |
| merkuralex_ | hahaha | 04:34 |
| merkuralex_ | It looks absolutely amazing | 04:34 |
| merkuralex_ | But im going to have to wait till it supports AT&T as im in a contract with those jurks! | 04:34 |
| Crying-wolf | lol | 04:34 |
| merkuralex_ | They still have not fixed my data :( | 04:35 |
| Crying-wolf | :S | 04:35 |
| merkuralex_ | I have an unlimited data plan for my family but my phone gets charged whenever i use data | 04:35 |
| merkuralex_ | its bullcrap | 04:35 |
| Crying-wolf | i send the contract for my contract to day... now i have to wait till the machine comes out :p | 04:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | merkuralex_, you might consider getting the 5800 if you can find it for under $250 | 04:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | Then eBay once you get an N900 or N920 | 04:35 |
| Firebird | N900 is phat. | 04:35 |
| merkuralex_ | GeneralAttiles, I was thinking the same thing. | 04:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | merkuralex_, the 5800 experience isn't great, though. | 04:36 |
| merkuralex_ | Firebird, Yeah but who cares for what you get with the phat sexyness. | 04:36 |
| chx | N920? | 04:36 |
| chx | wtf? | 04:36 |
| Firebird | GeneralAntilles, they're skipping *10 ? | 04:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | Especially since S60 5th has gotten a lot better and, of course, the 5800 doesn't get get of that love. | 04:36 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Firebird, according to Eldar the N920 (RX-56) is slotted for early next year. | 04:37 |
| Firebird | boo, why are we hyping this then :o | 04:37 |
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| merkuralex_ | GeneralAntilles, I have never had a symbian phone... but from what i have heard its great. | 04:37 |
| aspect | wow. nokian900.org is being sold on ebay for $AUD28882 | 04:38 |
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| aspect | with free shipping! | 04:39 |
| merkuralex_ | Lol. | 04:39 |
| Crying-wolf | btw, will the n900 sync with a linux desktop ? | 04:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | merkuralex_, yeah, compared to every other smartphone and featurephone out there. | 04:39 |
| merkuralex_ | I find it so annoying that all phones that are sold from at&t besides the iphone are so locked down. | 04:40 |
| chx | so | 04:40 |
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| chx | i should wait not just because the n900 is hideously expensive but also because it's obsolete in six months | 04:41 |
| chx | yay | 04:41 |
| zerojay | I wouldn't say the new one would obsolete the N900. | 04:42 |
| merkuralex_ | I am not so sure you could say it would be bosolete | 04:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | Obsolete? | 04:42 |
| merkuralex_ | obsolete* | 04:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | N920 is going to be a minor revision. | 04:42 |
| zerojay | N800 -> N810 style, most likely. | 04:43 |
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| merkuralex_ | yeah but its +20 so its gotta be better! | 04:43 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 04:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | Different feature focus, not better features. | 04:43 |
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| SpeedEvil | In some ways the bigger point isn't the n900 | 04:44 |
| SpeedEvil | it's the OS | 04:44 |
| SpeedEvil | Why do you update a phone? | 04:44 |
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| SpeedEvil | Is it to get a camera with 15% more megapixels? | 04:44 |
| chx | well, the N800->N810 upgrade was quite big | 04:44 |
| chx | i mean, the difference between an unusable and a usable device for me. | 04:44 |
| SpeedEvil | Or is it to run apps that won't run on your existing device because of vendor limits | 04:44 |
| merkuralex_ | I never held a n800 but i know i love the keyboard that is on the n810 | 04:45 |
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| chx | well, the primary usage for me is IM and SSH | 04:45 |
| merkuralex_ | im actually thinking when my data on my phone is fixed im just going to pull the good ol' n810 out and dust it off | 04:45 |
| chx | that ... without a physical keyboard... uh. | 04:45 |
| zerojay | chx: I'd probably go with the N900 then. Who knows... N920 might omit the keyboard. | 04:46 |
| chx | and then what it's good for | 04:46 |
| zerojay | People who don't want a keyboard. | 04:46 |
| chx | a keyboardless N900 cant stand against the jesusphone | 04:46 |
| zerojay | jesusphone doesn't have a keyboard either. | 04:46 |
| chx | thats what i say | 04:47 |
| merkuralex_ | you mean the omgmynameisgaypieceofsh*tphone from apple? | 04:47 |
| chx | yes | 04:47 |
| merkuralex_ | :D | 04:47 |
| chx | mind you: i hate that pos but then so many ppl dont | 04:47 |
| chx | so if Nokia tries to release something w/o a keyboard it's a dud | 04:47 |
| SpeedEvil | Some disagree. | 04:47 |
| merkuralex_ | i am not so sure | 04:47 |
| merkuralex_ | if its skinnier | 04:47 |
| merkuralex_ | some people may even prefer no keyboard | 04:47 |
| SpeedEvil | A keyboard makes the device lots thicker. | 04:47 |
| merkuralex_ | regardless | 04:47 |
| SpeedEvil | Or more bulky | 04:47 |
| SpeedEvil | Or more fragile | 04:48 |
| merkuralex_ | yeah the slider could be crap..... | 04:48 |
| merkuralex_ | but i doubt it | 04:48 |
| merkuralex_ | i personally would get an n900 if i had the money for something like that | 04:48 |
| merkuralex_ | but i need to get my car running | 04:48 |
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| merkuralex_ | so i would rather hold off on that... | 04:48 |
| SpeedEvil | I'm not saying it's crap on the n900 | 04:48 |
| merkuralex_ | SpeedEvil: i know | 04:49 |
| merkuralex_ | i was not suggesting that | 04:49 |
| SpeedEvil | I'm saying it pretty much unavoidably adds >>5mm to the thickness | 04:49 |
| zerojay | chx: You're making the same mistake I used to. Your particular desires don't always match up with those of the market. | 04:49 |
| Crying-wolf | the n900 is on the nokia site available in our country :O | 04:49 |
| zerojay | chx: Talk to all the people that want portrait mode without a keyboard, for example. | 04:49 |
| Crying-wolf | delivery a few days | 04:49 |
| Crying-wolf | does that mean... ? :P | 04:49 |
| SpeedEvil | Crying-wolf: Does it actually say 'a few days' - 30 might be a few | 04:49 |
| chx | zerojay: it's exactly the market i am talking of. Most people who want a keyboardless touchscreen smartphone buy the iPhone. | 04:49 |
| Crying-wolf | 3-1 days :S | 04:50 |
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| Crying-wolf | 1-3 :P | 04:50 |
| chx | zerojay: so many that seemingly nothing stands against that avalanche | 04:50 |
| merkuralex_ | ....buy it? lol | 04:50 |
| SpeedEvil | Crying-wolf: websites have been known to be wrongbefore | 04:50 |
| Crying-wolf | i already ordered | 04:50 |
| Crying-wolf | well its the official nokia site... | 04:50 |
| SpeedEvil | Crying-wolf: If not - congratulations. | 04:50 |
| Crying-wolf | but is sais reservation lol | 04:50 |
| Crying-wolf | :P | 04:50 |
| SpeedEvil | Official websites even | 04:50 |
| zerojay | chx: So.... how does a new Maemo 5 device suffer in that market without a keyboard then? | 04:50 |
| chx | zerojay: no demand for such a device, read again what i sid | 04:51 |
| chx | *said | 04:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | chx, the N810 was a downgrade for me. | 04:51 |
| zerojay | chx: And that's where you're wrong. Take a look at the uproar in TMO for example. | 04:51 |
| merkuralex_ | Honestly if Mer ends up supporting all the good maemo 5 things im probably going to try lugging around my n810 and my phone and see if it bothers me at all. | 04:51 |
| chx | zerojay: ? | 04:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | chx, works just fine, actually. | 04:51 |
| zerojay | (An uproar that I don't feel is all that justified, honestly.) | 04:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | I get about 40wpm sustained on the fingerkeyboard. | 04:52 |
| chx | zerojay: what uproar? | 04:52 |
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| zerojay | chx: Look at all the "portrait mode" threads. | 04:52 |
| zerojay | Well... probably consolidated now into one big one. | 04:52 |
| merkuralex_ | I have no preference so long as its not the dial pad typing method. | 04:52 |
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| GeneralAntilles | T9 | 04:53 |
| zerojay | chx: Personally speaking though... I want a hardware keyboard. | 04:53 |
| merkuralex_ | It just needs to be a full keyboard and i don't care if its physical or not | 04:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | merkuralex_, the finger keyboard is the one good thing about the 5800. | 04:53 |
| merkuralex_ | oh really? | 04:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, really responsive touchscreen. | 04:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Vibra motor haptics. | 04:53 |
| merkuralex_ | ahh i loved haptics although i forget what phone i tried that had it | 04:53 |
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| zerojay | New Linux kernel apparently handles X MUCH more responsively.. would be nice on the N900. | 04:54 |
| zerojay | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=324612#post324612 | 04:54 |
| merkuralex_ | Well I will look around and see what prices are around for the 5800. | 04:54 |
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| mkanat | Hey there. Who maintains the maemo Bugzilla? | 04:55 |
| zerojay | Paging andre__ | 04:55 |
| zerojay | ...who is suddenly not here. Hmm. | 04:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | zerojay, it's +7 there. :P | 04:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | mkanat, what's the issue? | 04:56 |
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| zerojay | GeneralAntilles: What is? | 04:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | UTC | 04:57 |
| mkanat | GeneralAntilles: I'd like to give the maintainer early access to a security fix before the advisory is released. | 04:57 |
| * mkanat is the upstream maintainer of Bugzilla, basically. | 04:57 | |
| merkuralex_ | GeneralAntilles, Does the 5800 have good free apps/themes/games and what not? | 04:57 |
| zerojay | GeneralAntilles: I have no idea what that has to do with anything? lol | 04:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | mkanat, http://maemo.org/profile/view/andre/ talk to him. | 04:57 |
| merkuralex_ | zerojay, probably means its really late and that person is asleep :D | 04:57 |
| mkanat | GeneralAntilles: Thanks! :-) | 04:57 |
| zerojay | mkanat: Awesome. Thanks for your hard work. I use Bugzilla both at home and at the office. Great stuff. :) | 04:58 |
| mkanat | Oh. :-) | 04:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | merkuralex_, I haven't been at all impressed. | 04:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ovi is full of shit. | 04:58 |
| zerojay | merkuralex_: Oh, okay.. but he's almost always been online anyways. ;) | 04:58 |
| merkuralex_ | o.o | 04:58 |
| merkuralex_ | Wtf is Ovi anyway? | 04:58 |
| mkanat | Is that the same as the GNOME Andre Klapper? | 04:58 |
| zerojay | Yes. | 04:58 |
| mkanat | Indeed it is. | 04:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | mkanat, yes, he's also maemo.org bugmaster. | 04:58 |
| mkanat | Perfect. | 04:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hopefully we'll be upgrading soon. . . . | 04:59 |
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| zerojay | At work, we were on 2.12 for something like 3 years. | 04:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | merkuralex_, but, again, I'm biased by Maemo. | 04:59 |
| zerojay | Each time I wanted to push an upgrade, we'd end up hitting crunch time on another game. :/ | 04:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | Symbian is great compared to the rest of the phone market | 04:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | but compared to Maemo. . . . | 04:59 |
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| merkuralex_ | Yeah.... i keep coming to that conclusion... that n900 is going to literally be the best and i hate that im not going to have the money for it :D | 05:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | merkuralex_, Ovi Store is the same as the appstore. | 05:00 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Except it's filled with shit. | 05:00 |
| merkuralex_ | oh... lol | 05:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | merkuralex_, give it a few months. | 05:00 |
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| zerojay | You know, I never really understood the whole.. Ovi... MOSH thing. | 05:01 |
| merkuralex_ | GeneralAntilles, i will do my best :D | 05:01 |
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| Dantonic | Do I have to edit a file to make debian installed apps appear under maemo menus? | 05:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | They need to have .desktop files. | 05:16 |
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| Dantonic | GeneralAntilles, i have to create them? can u elaborate a little? | 05:17 |
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| merkuralex_ | Dantonic, I believe there was some info on the forums about .desktop files i believe its just a ini format | 05:22 |
| merkuralex_ | if i had my old files i could look for you... | 05:22 |
| merkuralex_ | one second ill see if i have them still | 05:22 |
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| Dantonic | merkuralex_, thanks | 05:24 |
| merkuralex_ | this was the only desktop file i could find that i had left on my computer | 05:25 |
| merkuralex_ | http://pastebin.com/m4ff84cd1 | 05:25 |
| merkuralex_ | not sure if it will help with debian stuff | 05:25 |
| Dantonic | idk | 05:28 |
| merkuralex_ | open it in a text editor so you have an idea of what a desktop file looks like | 05:28 |
| merkuralex_ | wow nevermind | 05:28 |
| merkuralex_ | its in pastebin silly me | 05:29 |
| merkuralex_ | so distracted lol | 05:29 |
| merkuralex_ | im sure you can figure it out... | 05:29 |
| Dantonic | k ty | 05:31 |
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| merkuralex_ | ... i just realized how much i would love to have the same look as the 770 with all the new hardware... | 05:38 |
| merkuralex_ | Has anyone used Fennec on the n8xx? If so how is the speed? | 05:39 |
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| GeneralAntilles | http://wiki.maemo.org/Desktop_file_format | 05:41 |
| * merkuralex_ is about ready to get the n810 out again...... | 05:42 | |
| Thanatermesis | maemo 5 not for n800 ? | 05:48 |
| merkuralex_ | nope | 05:48 |
| merkuralex_ | As stated on maemo talk it will be only for the n900/n920 | 05:49 |
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| GeneralAntilles | ~mer | 05:49 |
| infobot | extra, extra, read all about it, mer is http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer, or on #mer | 05:49 |
| merkuralex_ | yeah i was about to mention that lol | 05:49 |
| merkuralex_ | Speaking of which does it support maemo 5 things already or is that just planned? | 05:50 |
| Thanatermesis | merkuralex_, nothing planned for the future too ? | 05:50 |
| merkuralex_ | Thanatermesis, what do you mean? | 05:51 |
| Thanatermesis | merkuralex_, so, the last firmware for n800 is chinook ? can't be possible to install maemo5 in the future on it ? | 05:51 |
| merkuralex_ | Well it could be i don't know about that | 05:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | Diablo is the latest. | 05:52 |
| merkuralex_ | But i would look forward to mer | 05:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | Thanatermesis, unless somebody else steps up to make a backport, Mer is the closest thing | 05:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | and better in a lot of ways. | 05:52 |
| Sho_ | Mer has one fatal flaw, sadly | 05:52 |
| Sho_ | No LCARS themes | 05:52 |
| Sho_ | :-) | 05:52 |
| merkuralex_ | Sho_, what is that? | 05:52 |
| merkuralex_ | hahahaha | 05:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | Sho_, I'm sure I could convince Ian to port them once they finalize the UI. | 05:53 |
| merkuralex_ | bleh i can't resist any longer i was going to sell my n810 on ebay but i think im going to get it back out and put mer on it. | 05:53 |
| Sho_ | GeneralAntilles: Unfortunately the top bar UI layout doesn't lend itself very well to LCARS :-/ | 05:53 |
| Thanatermesis | mer or diablo is the lastest ? btw which is the link about the update process again ? | 05:53 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Thanatermesis, Mer is a separate distribution based on Maemo 5 and Ubuntu Jaunty. | 05:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Diablo is the latest release for N8x0 (Maemo 4.1) | 05:53 |
| Sho_ | I know it's silly, but the LCARS theme is one of the reasons I bought first the N800 and then the N810 ;) | 05:53 |
| Sho_ | Heck, the hostname of my N810 is "padd". | 05:54 |
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| merkuralex_ | lol seriously? | 05:54 |
| Sho_ | Yeah, huge Trekkie here :-) | 05:54 |
| merkuralex_ | i have never watched star trek so i guess i cannot understand that :D | 05:54 |
| Sho_ | And Maemo's LCARS theme is the best working LCARS UI I've ever seen. | 05:54 |
| merkuralex_ | im going to go ahead and pull out the n810 and put mer on it :) | 05:56 |
| SpeedEvil | The big question is - can the n900 detect lifesigns? | 05:56 |
| merkuralex_ | SpeedEvil, LOL | 05:56 |
| Jucato | heh reminds me of the tricorder app on the n810 | 05:57 |
| Jucato | noisy little bugger | 05:57 |
| SpeedEvil | I've said for ages - I absolutely cannot understand why paramount have not licensed a phone. | 05:57 |
| SpeedEvil | A working combadge. | 05:57 |
| SpeedEvil | Voice dialing. | 05:57 |
| SpeedEvil | tap to activate, ... | 05:57 |
| Thanatermesis | GeneralAntilles, it is there any distribution based on debian instead of ubuntu ? (with all the repo available of debian packages =)) | 05:58 |
| merkuralex_ | lol... i just pulled my n810 box out of the closet all closed up with everything in it... reminds me of when i got it :D | 05:58 |
| merkuralex_ | oh wow.... didn't realize that the slider was so over used lol | 06:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | Deblet | 06:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | But it's way out of date these days. | 06:01 |
| merkuralex_ | wait... there is an ubuntu port?!?!?! | 06:01 |
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| merkuralex_ | ... i forgot how amazingly large the n810 screen is lol | 06:02 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Mer is based on Ubuntu Jaunty | 06:05 |
| Thanatermesis | GeneralAntilles, i dont found much details about Mer, how much pacakges available has ? it has E17 packages ? which interface uses ? (same as maemo?) | 06:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | It uses the Jaunty repositories. | 06:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | It uses Hildon by default. | 06:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | ~mer | 06:06 |
| infobot | it has been said that mer is http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer, or on #mer | 06:06 |
| Thanatermesis | sounds good | 06:06 |
| merkuralex_ | ...what the heck my n810's screen is partially sticky... | 06:07 |
| merkuralex_ | unless thats mah finger | 06:07 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 06:07 |
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| Thanatermesis | how to know which firmware im running ? | 06:10 |
| GAN800 | Control Panel -> About | 06:10 |
| Thanatermesis | 5.2008.43-7 | 06:11 |
| Thanatermesis | that's the lastest one ? | 06:11 |
| GAN800 | Yes | 06:11 |
| chx | as far as we mere mortals know | 06:11 |
| merkuralex_ | lol! | 06:11 |
| chx | what the nokian gods have, noone knows. | 06:11 |
| merkuralex_ | the nokian gods probably have n1000001's with maemo 500385 | 06:12 |
| SpeedEvil | The current nokia god is version 9.338 of the software. | 06:12 |
| GAN800 | They have more, which we could ship if we managed to get the manpower together to ship a community update. | 06:12 |
| SpeedEvil | The humans lost a couple of years ago. | 06:12 |
| Thanatermesis | not looks like to have much activity the last firmware... is there extra repositories that i can use ? (i would like to have a good set of packages available, like a good set of the default debian ones) | 06:13 |
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| Thanatermesis | GeneralAntilles, you have say better in a lot of ways, can you tell me a few ones ? | 06:15 |
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| merkuralex_ | is there anyway i can use my n810 to send/recieve sms via my phone over bluetooth? | 06:22 |
| luke-jr | merkuralex_: probably depends on your phone more than the N810 | 06:22 |
| merkuralex_ | Well if the phone did support it how would i go about doing it from the n810 then? | 06:22 |
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| Thanatermesis | how to be root ? i dont remember | 06:25 |
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| merkuralex_ | i believe there is something you can install that lets you sudo Thanatermesis | 06:25 |
| merkuralex_ | or you can do the red pill mode | 06:25 |
| merkuralex_ | both of which i forget | 06:25 |
| Thanatermesis | :/ | 06:26 |
| merkuralex_ | search application manager for rootsh | 06:26 |
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| merkuralex_ | then after you install that | 06:26 |
| merkuralex_ | you can use "root" in xterm | 06:26 |
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| rm_you | hrmrm | 06:29 |
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| rm_you | johnx: poke | 06:33 |
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| Thanatermesis | why Mer could be a better option ? | 07:07 |
| RST38h | better option for what? | 07:07 |
| Thanatermesis | for n800, than the default os | 07:07 |
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| RST38h | Mer is currently not an option, it is not fully operational | 07:07 |
| RST38h | It is for hackers mainly | 07:08 |
| Thanatermesis | so, a lot of packages available under a plain terminal ? =) | 07:08 |
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| Thanatermesis | mmh, i can install a "plain" debian system on my n800 ? | 07:12 |
| timeless_mbp | SpeedEvil: the n900 has a proximity sensor which IME actually works | 07:12 |
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| timeless_mbp | and yes technically internally there are a couple of flashes past the last diablo version | 07:12 |
| timeless_mbp | but they're just minor bug fixes to a couple of apps (i've never looked for a changelog) | 07:13 |
| * timeless_mbp frowns | 07:14 | |
| timeless_mbp | fwiw, maemo5 is running 2.6.28<something> | 07:14 |
| timeless_mbp | certainly not 2.6.30 | 07:14 |
| timeless_mbp | anyway, if people want a newer kernel, they're going to need to use Mer | 07:15 |
| timeless_mbp | it's pretty much impossible w/ our model for us to ship the latest kernel | 07:15 |
| timeless_mbp | we take a kernel add the hardware support we need and then are effectively frozen (i.e. can't upgrade to a later kernel branch) for the development cycle of our product | 07:16 |
| timeless_mbp | which historically has been 12-24 months long | 07:17 |
| timeless_mbp | and fwiw, customers really do not want a hardware vendor to 1 day before release upgrade their kernel | 07:17 |
| timeless_mbp | that would pretty much invalidate all testing the company did for the entire product | 07:18 |
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| vernonjvs | Hi, I have a nokia 770 running os2007. Does anyone know how to move applications into different groups. I tried editiing /home/user/.osso/applications.menu with unexpected results. | 07:28 |
| merkuralex_ | OMG!!!! you have a 770?... i miss mine and no sorry i don't know how... unless you do it from the control panel??? | 07:29 |
| timeless_mbp | vernonjvs: typically you used the control panel | 07:31 |
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| timeless_mbp | so you're running os2007 HE | 07:31 |
| vernonjvs | I did it with OS2006 and I thought I edited an xml file. but now I can't remember which one | 07:31 |
| vernonjvs | yes OS2007 HE | 07:31 |
| timeless_mbp | i can't remember what the official name for that control panel was | 07:32 |
| vernonjvs | I can't find a menu in trhe control panel. Perhaps I am just stupid | 07:32 |
| timeless_mbp | give me the list? :) | 07:32 |
| * timeless_mbp is too lazy to get out a string table | 07:32 | |
| vernonjvs | general/about this product, device lock, hardware keyboard, screen calibration, dat and time, display, memory | 07:34 |
| vernonjvs | connectivity/accounts, certificate manager, phone, bluetooth, connectivity, presence | 07:34 |
| merkuralex_ | in os2008 its panels | 07:34 |
| merkuralex_ | thats all i know | 07:34 |
| timeless_mbp | merkuralex_: shh, we'll get it. at least his is running English :) | 07:35 |
| vernonjvs | personalization/language and regions, sounds, themes, navigation, text input settings | 07:35 |
| vernonjvs | that's it | 07:36 |
| timeless_mbp | navigation | 07:36 |
| vernonjvs | I see it know. I feel like an idiot. Thanks for your help. | 07:37 |
| vernonjvs | I mean now | 07:37 |
| timeless_mbp | thanks for being willing to list them | 07:37 |
| merkuralex_ | anyone here ever tried sms over bluetooth with your phone from the n810? | 07:38 |
| timeless_mbp | fwiw, my translation did not call it that | 07:38 |
| timeless_mbp | merkuralex_: um, what is 'sms over bluetooth'? | 07:38 |
| merkuralex_ | like texting... | 07:38 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 07:38 |
| timeless_mbp | like sending a file from "Notes" via "Bluetooth"? | 07:39 |
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| merkuralex_ | ....no | 07:39 |
| vernonjvs | Thanks for your help timeless. Have a great moring. Bye | 07:39 |
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| timeless_mbp | merkuralex_: was it a supported feature? | 07:39 |
| merkuralex_ | im just asking if anyone has attempted it | 07:39 |
| merkuralex_ | i believe my phone supports it | 07:39 |
| merkuralex_ | but im not sure if there is an app out there for the n810 that will do it | 07:40 |
| timeless_mbp | you're looking at it wrong | 07:40 |
| timeless_mbp | first question is "does BlueZ support it" | 07:40 |
| timeless_mbp | if the answer is "no", then well ... | 07:40 |
| Sho_ | http://geekandpoke.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341d3df553ef0120a55e2631970b-pi | 07:40 |
| merkuralex_ | Sho_, LOL | 07:41 |
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| Sho_ | link from #android ;) | 07:41 |
| merkuralex_ | ahh i always wondered if android was any good | 07:42 |
| Sho_ | i like it. | 07:42 |
| merkuralex_ | but i refuse to get a phone with it as they are expensive unlocked and AT&T doesn't have one... | 07:42 |
| timeless_mbp | merkuralex_: it looks like wammu/gammu might do what you want | 07:42 |
| merkuralex_ | okay ill look into it thanks timeless | 07:42 |
| Sho_ | merkuralex_: AT&T is about to get some, I heard | 07:42 |
| merkuralex_ | Sho_, oh really? link? :D | 07:42 |
| Sho_ | merkuralex_: none on hand, sorry. but I read something about HTC making a device for them. | 07:43 |
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| merkuralex_ | bleh... htc | 07:43 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 07:43 |
| merkuralex_ | okay i shall google it | 07:43 |
| merkuralex_ | HTC Lancaster? | 07:44 |
| Sho_ | yeah, that might have been it | 07:45 |
| Sho_ | No AT&T here, so forgive me for not paying too much attention | 07:45 |
| merkuralex_ | no problem | 07:45 |
| merkuralex_ | t-mobile claimed to have AMAZING coverage where i am... i got them for a while i literally had dropped calls all the time and my signal never went above 1 bar i tried a few phones... it was rather annoying | 07:46 |
| merkuralex_ | thats why i got AT&T | 07:46 |
| merkuralex_ | i like the service but why must they lock every phone down except the iphone | 07:47 |
| Sho_ | T-Mobile is the largest carrier here (Germany, their country of origin) | 07:47 |
| merkuralex_ | i refuse to pay an extra 30$ every month for an iphone | 07:47 |
| merkuralex_ | ahh im in ohio | 07:47 |
| merkuralex_ | were you born in germany? | 07:47 |
| Sho_ | yup | 07:47 |
| merkuralex_ | sweet! | 07:47 |
| merkuralex_ | i plan to start learning german sometime this/next year | 07:48 |
| Sho_ | I used to have an American acqaintance who had German in school | 07:48 |
| Sho_ | I helped him with homework now and then :) | 07:48 |
| merkuralex_ | cool! brb a second | 07:48 |
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| wazd | moaning all :) | 07:49 |
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| RST38h | mourning indeed | 07:50 |
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| timeless_mbp | oh darn | 07:54 |
| timeless_mbp | so much for using the audio buttons to do zooming | 07:54 |
| timeless_mbp | we've dropped that feature by fiat | 07:54 |
| mfinkle | timeless_mbp: maemo 5? | 07:56 |
| mfinkle | I just got a bug about that today | 07:56 |
| timeless_mbp | yes | 07:56 |
| timeless_mbp | to do which? | 07:56 |
| mfinkle | volume controls for zooming | 07:56 |
| mfinkle | works on n810 | 07:56 |
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| mfinkle | not on n900 | 07:57 |
| wazd | timeless_mbp: can you please clarify is there some FM receiver in n900 or not?) | 07:57 |
| timeless_mbp | wazd: my understanding is that it's an unsupported hardware component | 07:57 |
| timeless_mbp | mfinkle: well, expected results for the n900 is "don't do that" | 07:57 |
| timeless_mbp | you break controlling background audio | 07:57 |
| mfinkle | I see | 07:57 |
| timeless_mbp | which is considered more important | 07:57 |
| timeless_mbp | remember the n900 is a phone | 07:57 |
| timeless_mbp | potentially a speaker phone | 07:57 |
| timeless_mbp | if i have my n900 using composite out plugged into a tv | 07:58 |
| timeless_mbp | and i'm in a call | 07:58 |
| timeless_mbp | but i'm looking at a web page | 07:58 |
| wazd | timeless_mbp: it's connected but without proper software or it's even disconnected? :( | 07:58 |
| timeless_mbp | which do i want the tv to do? | 07:58 |
| mfinkle | timeless_mbp: makes total sense | 07:58 |
| timeless_mbp | wazd: afaiu the hardware path exists | 07:58 |
| timeless_mbp | mfinkle: i'm not defending it | 07:58 |
| timeless_mbp | and our platform will of course not be consistent | 07:59 |
| mfinkle | we need an alternate zoom UI anyway | 07:59 |
| wazd | timeless_mbp: whew :) | 07:59 |
| timeless_mbp | mfinkle: have you seen the sony ericson w950i? | 07:59 |
| timeless_mbp | if not, i'd recommend you grab one | 07:59 |
| mfinkle | timeless_mbp: nope | 07:59 |
| timeless_mbp | it has a much better ui for zooming | 07:59 |
| mfinkle | I just grabbed an n900 | 07:59 |
| mfinkle | I'll look for screen shots | 07:59 |
| * RST38h would expect the +/- keys affect the current application | 07:59 | |
| aSIMULAtor | morning | 08:00 |
| RST38h | i.e. when browser is on top, +/- do zoom, even if there is a phone call in progress | 08:00 |
| timeless_mbp | basically they give you an onscreen slider | 08:00 |
| timeless_mbp | but only when you ask to zoom | 08:00 |
| RST38h | whoever wants to change the volume (rare occurance anyway) will switch to the phone app | 08:00 |
| timeless_mbp | and the page zooms live as you drag the thumb | 08:01 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: please feel free to kill Martin (global UI owner) | 08:01 |
| timeless_mbp | or convince, that works too | 08:01 |
| * timeless_mbp doesn't care which RST38h does | 08:01 | |
| timeless_mbp | either would be rather convenient | 08:01 |
| timeless_mbp | mfinkle: in fennec, this would effectively be: | 08:01 |
| timeless_mbp | 1. drag screen left to expose the back button | 08:02 |
| RST38h | Assigning global functions to buttons is a bad, messy idea. Any non-believer only needs to check Symbian phones. | 08:02 |
| timeless_mbp | 2. click the zoom button which would be below the forward button | 08:02 |
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| RST38h | *Especially* UIQ phones, although S60 is also guilty of this | 08:02 |
| mfinkle | timeless_mbp: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=478038 | 08:02 |
| timeless_mbp | 3. an overlay appears either to the left of the right bar or at the bottom of the screen flush to an edge with a zoomer | 08:02 |
| timeless_mbp | "option 2" from https://bug478038.bugzilla.mozilla.org/attachment.cgi?id=390404 | 08:03 |
| timeless_mbp | please | 08:03 |
| mfinkle | ah, I have a patch in there for option 1 | 08:03 |
| timeless_mbp | but not in the center of the screen | 08:03 |
| timeless_mbp | the w950i uses something like 2 | 08:03 |
| timeless_mbp | it's awesome | 08:03 |
| timeless_mbp | i really wanted that | 08:03 |
| timeless_mbp | step based zooming for a touch device is incredibly lame | 08:04 |
| mfinkle | good point | 08:04 |
| wazd | "option 3" http://tabletui.wordpress.com/2009/09/04/fremantle-browser-zoom/ :) | 08:04 |
| timeless_mbp | wazd: for reference we're internally still microb | 08:04 |
| timeless_mbp | however for marketing purposes "i.e. to screw things up" we're "Maemo Browser" | 08:04 |
| aSIMULAtor | heh | 08:05 |
| timeless_mbp | that won't change until we replace microb with some other core (e.g. fennec) | 08:05 |
| timeless_mbp | mfinkle: anyway | 08:05 |
| timeless_mbp | does my approach make sense? | 08:05 |
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| timeless_mbp | and really, it should be at an edge | 08:05 |
| timeless_mbp | because otherwise your hand covers most of the screen | 08:05 |
| RST38h | wazd: BTW, seeing that you already looked at Fremantle theme design, can buttons and other small UI elements be themed as well? | 08:05 |
| timeless_mbp | it's less of a problem on a large touchscreen using a stylus | 08:06 |
| timeless_mbp | but we're a small touchscreen using a finger | 08:06 |
| mfinkle | timeless_mbp: yes, makes sense | 08:06 |
| timeless_mbp | ok | 08:06 |
| timeless_mbp | thanks for asking/listening | 08:06 |
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| mfinkle | we'll have to see how "live" zooming works in fennec though | 08:06 |
| timeless_mbp | it works fairly well in microb | 08:06 |
| timeless_mbp | and since the technology is pretty much the same | 08:07 |
| timeless_mbp | it shouldn't work much worse in fennec | 08:07 |
| mfinkle | fingers crossed :) | 08:07 |
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| wazd | RST38h: I think everything is skinnable, just like before | 08:07 |
| timeless_mbp | cute | 08:07 |
| timeless_mbp | sony.com gave me a bilingual message | 08:07 |
| aSIMULAtor | yes buttons can be themed | 08:07 |
| timeless_mbp | <big>Finnish</big><br><small>English</small> | 08:08 |
| aSIMULAtor | wheres the sverige | 08:08 |
| merkuralex_ | LOL@timeless | 08:08 |
| timeless_mbp | merkuralex_: it's a hell of a lot better than nokia.com and google.com | 08:08 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 08:08 |
| RST38h | wazd: so, there is a way to beautify those slider handles, sliders themselves, menu items, etc? | 08:09 |
| timeless_mbp | or the n900's language switcher | 08:09 |
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| timeless_mbp | which at the end says in the language you're leaving, something incredibly long w/ two buttons in a language you don't speak | 08:09 |
| timeless_mbp | (the 770, n800, and n810 do the same thing) | 08:09 |
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| wazd | RST38h: I guess so :) | 08:10 |
| wazd | RST38h: but template is complicated again :) | 08:10 |
| RST38h | that's ok, as (hopefully) you only need to o it once | 08:11 |
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| * RST38h found an interesting thing while googling for fremantle themes | 08:13 | |
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| RST38h | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31088 <=== Pizero is the guy solely responsible for something like 60% S60 themes | 08:13 |
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| MaceN8x0 | hm | 08:17 |
| MaceN8x0 | still waiting on my touchbook | 08:17 |
| * timeless_mbp sighs | 08:18 | |
| wazd | RST38h: he's responsible to sell HTC Flo theme :P | 08:18 |
| timeless_mbp | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=31088&page=2 | 08:18 |
| timeless_mbp | is there a way to kill comments from a thread on talk? | 08:18 |
| timeless_mbp | because #12 is totally off topic | 08:18 |
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| MaceN8x0 | lol | 08:19 |
| aSIMULAtor | thats an interesting thread | 08:19 |
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| RST38h | wazd: oh, he has moved into WinMo as well now? | 08:19 |
| vladovg | hi | 08:20 |
| wazd | RST38h: no, h's just selling HTC flo rip-off for symbian :) | 08:21 |
| RST38h | wazd: Urgh. | 08:21 |
| RST38h | Why would anyone.... | 08:21 |
| wazd | RST38h: http://www.pizero.net/premium/?p=347 | 08:21 |
| MaceN8x0 | haha | 08:22 |
| MaceN8x0 | i'd try winmob on my n810 if i could | 08:22 |
| MaceN8x0 | would be interesting | 08:22 |
| RST38h | Lots if people will use ANY black theme the can get hold of =) | 08:22 |
| timeless_mbp | RST38h: is that why all of our themes are black? | 08:23 |
| vladovg | nooo | 08:23 |
| * RST38h can't replace the E70 theme though: performance falls through the floor =( | 08:23 | |
| MaceN8x0 | black is extreme ;) | 08:23 |
| vladovg | dont du this | 08:23 |
| RST38h | timeless; No idea, ask your UI boss | 08:23 |
| MaceN8x0 | eXtreme (the capital X is important because it is the coolest letter | 08:23 |
| * RST38h also wondered about that | 08:24 | |
| wazd | timeless_mbp: it's for hiding screen borders in promo shots I guess | 08:24 |
| timeless_mbp | heh | 08:24 |
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| wazd | timeless_mbp: But I'm thinking to port "Titan" to m5 :) | 08:25 |
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| timeless_mbp | picture? | 08:25 |
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| RST38h | wazd <--- stole a crystal ball somewhere | 08:26 |
| wazd | RST38h: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/titan/ | 08:26 |
| wazd | RST38h: I have 2 :D | 08:26 |
| RST38h | wazd: yea, but I don't like it for some reason :( | 08:26 |
| RST38h | wazd: the button shape bring bad memories, I guess | 08:26 |
| RST38h | wazd: Let us do a steampunk theme instead ;) | 08:27 |
| Jucato | (Titan sort of reminds me a bit of OS X with the background and the "metallic" look. but not too much :) | 08:27 |
| MaceN8x0 | haha | 08:27 |
| MaceN8x0 | it is an ugly theme | 08:27 |
| wazd | RST38h: well, I'll change something, maybe make gray more yellowish | 08:27 |
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| MaceN8x0 | really only the stock ones are good | 08:27 |
| RST38h | wazd: or greenish | 08:27 |
| *** MikaT has quit IRC | 08:27 | |
| RST38h | khaki color | 08:27 |
| MaceN8x0 | khaki? | 08:27 |
| MaceN8x0 | go get a mac RST38h ... that is fail | 08:27 |
| MaceN8x0 | haha | 08:27 |
| wazd | MaceN8x0: 14.5k downloads don't agree with you :D | 08:28 |
| RST38h | Macer: 14k people got this theme =) | 08:28 |
| MaceN8x0 | hahaha | 08:28 |
| * Jucato got the theme. but just retained the background pic later | 08:28 | |
| MaceN8x0 | most people horde themes | 08:28 |
| *** vladovg has left #maemo | 08:29 | |
| MaceN8x0 | i want my touchbook | 08:29 |
| MaceN8x0 | i hope i make the cut this month | 08:29 |
| wazd | MaceN8x0: yeah, you're getting crazy :D | 08:29 |
| merkuralex_ | o.o how much was the touchbook? | 08:29 |
| RST38h | *still* no touchbook? | 08:29 |
| RST38h | is it the new pandora? | 08:29 |
| MaceN8x0 | 400 with the kb | 08:29 |
| MaceN8x0 | no | 08:29 |
| MaceN8x0 | people are getting them | 08:29 |
| RST38h | mhm | 08:30 |
| MaceN8x0 | a lot of ppl so far | 08:30 |
| merkuralex_ | 400$? | 08:30 |
| wazd | RST38h: it's new n900 :) | 08:30 |
| MaceN8x0 | it is on the internets | 08:30 |
| MaceN8x0 | hahaha | 08:30 |
| wazd | RST38h: people are getting them, but not me :D | 08:30 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 08:30 |
| MaceN8x0 | merkuralex_, yes $ | 08:30 |
| merkuralex_ | ahh not bad | 08:30 |
| MaceN8x0 | yeah | 08:30 |
| Jucato | $300 for no keyboard | 08:30 |
| MaceN8x0 | yeah | 08:30 |
| merkuralex_ | though im not so sure i would use something that large with a touchscreen lol | 08:31 |
| MaceN8x0 | but the kb has the huge battery | 08:31 |
| * Stskeeps yawns | 08:31 | |
| MaceN8x0 | 10 hrs in use from what ive heard | 08:31 |
| MaceN8x0 | actually lasts that long, maybe longer | 08:31 |
| MaceN8x0 | in use | 08:31 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: borening :) | 08:31 |
| MaceN8x0 | i just want mine already | 08:32 |
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| MaceN8x0 | i winder if you can use a usb mouse with it | 08:32 |
| Sho_ | shame it has no compass. | 08:32 |
| merkuralex_ | the only reason i would get the touchbook would be to make finger friendly apps and i seriously am done buying new gadgets just so i can program on/for them | 08:32 |
| MaceN8x0 | i know it has magnets so it can stick to a fridge | 08:32 |
| merkuralex_ | of course i will cave in soon enough lol | 08:32 |
| Sho_ | (the n900, that is) | 08:32 |
| MaceN8x0 | hahaha | 08:32 |
| MaceN8x0 | no compass?! | 08:32 |
| Jucato | accelerometer, but no compass | 08:33 |
| MaceN8x0 | they are waiting til they can release the N900GS | 08:33 |
| MaceN8x0 | :) | 08:33 |
| merkuralex_ | LOL | 08:33 |
| * RST38h was done with this when he moved all development to a remote Alpha workstation only available via dialup | 08:33 | |
| MaceN8x0 | so maybe 2 months after the market eats up N900s | 08:33 |
| RST38h | First fMSX actually rendered its display in ASCII mode over modem | 08:33 |
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| timeless_mbp | oh right, i used titan in Mer while testing theme switching | 08:35 |
| timeless_mbp | thanks wazd for the url | 08:35 |
| merkuralex_ | MaceN8x0 what was your main reason for buying the touchbook? | 08:35 |
| Stskeeps | he didn't know n900 was coming? ;p | 08:39 |
| merkuralex_ | LOL!!!!! | 08:39 |
| MaceN8x0 | battery life and next gen arm | 08:40 |
| MaceN8x0 | :) | 08:40 |
| MaceN8x0 | haha | 08:40 |
| merkuralex_ | does anyone here have a PSP? or do you all consider sony to be shit? lol | 08:40 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 08:40 |
| MaceN8x0 | no, i did | 08:40 |
| RST38h | It's a Sony! | 08:40 |
| merkuralex_ | i wish i had the money to buy a touchbook or n900 randomly | 08:40 |
| MaceN8x0 | i'll get that too Stskeeps ;) | 08:40 |
| Stskeeps | Mace has too much money :P | 08:41 |
| qwerty12_N810 | MaceN8x0 == pimp ;) | 08:41 |
| MaceN8x0 | you can never have too much | 08:41 |
| MaceN8x0 | ;) | 08:41 |
| merkuralex_ | yeah.... he should buy me a n900 | 08:41 |
| merkuralex_ | :D | 08:41 |
| MaceN8x0 | haha | 08:41 |
| MaceN8x0 | i dont believe in charity | 08:41 |
| merkuralex_ | awww... f*ck you! | 08:41 |
| merkuralex_ | hahahaha | 08:41 |
| MaceN8x0 | i gave Stskeeps the n800 because he develops | 08:41 |
| MaceN8x0 | he is contributing to society | 08:42 |
| merkuralex_ | thats not fair! i made nokiaflash! not that it actually works anymore but yeah | 08:42 |
| MaceN8x0 | :) | 08:42 |
| Stskeeps | nokiaflash? :P | 08:42 |
| merkuralex_ | exactly | 08:42 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 08:42 |
| MaceN8x0 | hahaha | 08:42 |
| merkuralex_ | my server died and i never backed it up | 08:42 |
| Stskeeps | what on earth is that? :P | 08:42 |
| merkuralex_ | so i lost the system for the web | 08:42 |
| merkuralex_ | it died in the early stages of the n810 | 08:42 |
| merkuralex_ | but people liked it while it lasted rofl | 08:42 |
| merkuralex_ | but my crappy job takes up so much time i no longer have the time to program | 08:43 |
| merkuralex_ | okay... my job is not that crappy | 08:43 |
| merkuralex_ | but it still takes up too much time | 08:43 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 08:43 |
| Stskeeps | what was it? :P | 08:43 |
| RST38h | Sprint's big surprise to be unlimited mobile calling, data, text, and MMS for $70 (if you are in the States of course) | 08:43 |
| aSIMULAtor | ouch | 08:43 |
| aSIMULAtor | expensive | 08:43 |
| merkuralex_ | actually... kinda cheap lol | 08:43 |
| RST38h | not as expensive as previous $99+ offers | 08:43 |
| merkuralex_ | stskeeps it was a flash game manager/downloader/launcher | 08:44 |
| merkuralex_ | yeah i think at&t with our family plan is more then that | 08:44 |
| merkuralex_ | and they screw you over alot | 08:44 |
| merkuralex_ | suddenly started charging me for my data | 08:44 |
| merkuralex_ | but the rest of my family has unlimited still... | 08:44 |
| Stskeeps | ah | 08:44 |
| aSIMULAtor | do you still get charged if someone calls YOUR mobile | 08:44 |
| RST38h | Sprint is CDMA though, so whoever wanted to use n900 on it is fucked. | 08:45 |
| merkuralex_ | yeah... | 08:45 |
| merkuralex_ | bastards! | 08:45 |
| merkuralex_ | asimulator was that directed at me? | 08:45 |
| aSIMULAtor | wtf | 08:45 |
| aSIMULAtor | yz | 08:45 |
| hari_ | Any idea why the n900 doesn't work with AT&T 3G bands? (Just out of curiosity) | 08:45 |
| merkuralex_ | uhhh no it uses our minutes lol | 08:45 |
| aSIMULAtor | sucks :( | 08:45 |
| merkuralex_ | but my data currently charges me per mb or whatever | 08:46 |
| merkuralex_ | which is bullcrap | 08:46 |
| merkuralex_ | cause the site says im on the unlimited plan | 08:46 |
| Stskeeps | wazd: i have an artist in my incoming Mer people, should i send him along to you? | 08:46 |
| merkuralex_ | anyway mace you said you had a psp did you put custom firmware on it and was it a 2000? | 08:47 |
| RST38h | hari: N900 band selection corresponds to european bands | 08:47 |
| RST38h | hari: In the US, TMobile supports roughly the same bands, but AT&T does not | 08:47 |
| RST38h | hari: So, to support AT&T, Nokia would have to produce a different model | 08:48 |
| wazd | Stskeeps: sure, ask him if he's gonna do something or disappear like others :D | 08:48 |
| hari_ | ah ok RST38h that's good to know .. does that mean a most (or lot) of Nokia's Symbian smartphones have seperate models for American markets? | 08:48 |
| merkuralex_ | MaceN8x0, read my question you bastard!!! | 08:48 |
| RST38h | hari: Lots, yes | 08:48 |
| merkuralex_ | :D | 08:48 |
| Stskeeps | wazd: want a mailing list where you can control your minions? | 08:48 |
| Stskeeps | we already have one, so i can ask him to subscribe there | 08:48 |
| hari_ | RST38h, So there might be hope of a n900 North American market too? Eventually? Couple of months? | 08:48 |
| aSIMULAtor | yeah separate models so they can rape the features and functionality :P | 08:49 |
| RST38h | hari: Good thing is that most of them support all GSM bands, US and Europe. So at least your GSM/EDGE will work everywhere | 08:49 |
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| hari_ | Browsing on EDGE after being on 3.5G is like going back to dialup :( | 08:49 |
| RST38h | hari: What do you mean by "hope"? N900 will work on TMobile | 08:49 |
| hari_ | I meant with AT&T support, sorry | 08:49 |
| * RST38h uses EDGE daily. Feels ok, just do not go to full sized websites | 08:49 | |
| wazd | Stskeeps: well, they are not my minions, we're totally equal :) I think there is some mail list, they can just join it in | 08:49 |
| * RST38h also spends incredible $10/month on his cell phone bill, in spite of daily iternet use | 08:50 | |
| sneakret | RST38h: That's a neat trick. | 08:50 |
| RST38h | wazd: But doesn't having minions feel sickly attractive? =) | 08:51 |
| hari_ | These are times I wish I don't live in the US .. greediest telco companies ever | 08:51 |
| RST38h | hari: Unfortunately, yes | 08:51 |
| wazd | RST38h: no :D | 08:51 |
| *** acydlord has quit IRC | 08:51 | |
| merkuralex_ | hari, im in the same situation as you :D | 08:51 |
| merkuralex_ | oh wait why did i put a happy face? :((( | 08:52 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 08:52 |
| merkuralex_ | thats better | 08:52 |
| hari_ | merkuralex_, really? I wanted to get a e71, and I originally got a e71x from AT&T .. oh my God that was a punishment. I ended up returning it and buying a unlocked e71 from Amazon.com | 08:52 |
| sneakret | Yeah, my mobile phone bill is crazy. (US.) | 08:53 |
| merkuralex_ | hari, Yeah... im so piseed off with my samsung eternity | 08:53 |
| merkuralex_ | hari, its so locked down its bullcrap | 08:53 |
| merkuralex_ | pissed* | 08:53 |
| hari_ | haha I just noticed the heading .. "Maemo 5 will not be available for 770/ n8x0 / iPhone" | 08:54 |
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| sneakret | Haha. | 08:54 |
| *** slonopotamus_ is now known as slonopotamus | 08:54 | |
| sneakret | Yeah, that's funny. :) | 08:54 |
| merkuralex_ | yeah i noticed that too | 08:54 |
| merkuralex_ | funny shit | 08:54 |
| Stskeeps | if we had gl drivers on iphone it wouldn't be totally impossible, heh | 08:55 |
| hari_ | Unfortunate at the same time too, atleast for the n8x0 users | 08:55 |
| sneakret | So, is anyone planning on making money with commercial apps on the N900? | 08:55 |
| *** EdLin has left #maemo | 08:55 | |
| hari_ | I wanted a device like the n810, the amazing thing is there's absolutely nothing else on the market even close to n810, offering the same line of features and capabilities :( | 08:55 |
| Stskeeps | i plan to become a trillionaire | 08:55 |
| slonopotamus | Stskeeps, so you need to rob quadrillionaire and spend some money. | 08:56 |
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| merkuralex_ | sneakret, yeah i would think about it if i had the money to blow on another gadget but then again im not the best at making proffesional like programming in c/python/c++ | 08:57 |
| lcukx41 | Stskeeps, moving to zimbabwe? | 08:57 |
| Stskeeps | lcukx41: true, true | 08:58 |
| * lcukx41 waves btw | 08:58 | |
| RST38h | hari: There are Chinese MIDs comparable to n810 | 08:58 |
| sneakret | Is Nokia working on making the development tools easier to use? | 08:58 |
| RST38h | hari: Then, there is iphone and various WinMo devices which now also have 800x480 screens | 08:58 |
| hari_ | RST38h, namely? I am looking at features like touchscreen, BT tethering, pocketable and 800x480 | 08:58 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: none with keyboards yet though | 08:58 |
| RST38h | So I would not say "nothing" | 08:58 |
| sneakret | Last I looked into maemo development, it was tied to Linux, and was a minor hassle to set up. | 08:58 |
| RST38h | Sts: HTC Touch Pro2 | 08:58 |
| MaceN8x0 | screw att | 08:59 |
| hari_ | And yeah, physical qwerty would be handy | 08:59 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: chinese MIDs | 08:59 |
| *** slonopotamus changes topic to "Welcome to #maemo | N900 and Maemo 5 announced @ http://maemo.nokia.com | http://maemo.org | Maemo Community Council http://maemo.org/community/council | http://mxr.maemo.org | http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog | Maemo Summit 2009: Call for Content Now Open! -> http://tinyurl.com/mvbcdy | Maemo Summit 2009: Registration now open - http://tinyurl.com/lumhbk | Maemo 5 will not be available for 770/n8x0/iPhone | Use Mer instead" | 08:59 | |
| Stskeeps | HTC may qualify | 08:59 |
| merkuralex_ | MaceN8x0, you never answered my question... you bastard | 08:59 |
| RST38h | Sts: Yea, but HTC is in fact a chinese mid :) | 08:59 |
| merkuralex_ | hehehe | 08:59 |
| Stskeeps | slonopotamus: don't you mean Gentoo? | 08:59 |
| slonopotamus | err | 08:59 |
| MaceN8x0 | wouldnt mind the n900 working on cricket heh | 08:59 |
| sneakret | Is cricket GSM? | 08:59 |
| MaceN8x0 | mer, sorry, doing stuff | 08:59 |
| merkuralex_ | rich bastard... | 08:59 |
| MaceN8x0 | sneakret, dont know | 08:59 |
| merkuralex_ | hehe jk i understand | 08:59 |
| slonopotamus | Stskeeps, meh, no, i don't need hordes of noob users :) | 08:59 |
| * RST38h would buy HTC if it weren't running WinMo | 09:00 | |
| MaceN8x0 | merkuralex_, what was the question? | 09:00 |
| Stskeeps | slonopotamus: point taken | 09:00 |
| johnx | rm_you, poke poke | 09:00 |
| hari_ | RST38h, seriously, I am not interested in WinMo . I would get one too if I could get a different OS on them | 09:00 |
| merkuralex_ | MaceN8x0,did you have custom firmware on your psp and what version of the psp did you have? | 09:00 |
| * Stskeeps passes johnx caffeine | 09:00 | |
| MaceN8x0 | i dont have a psp heh | 09:00 |
| johnx | don't need it. need un-caffeine | 09:00 |
| MaceN8x0 | nor have i ever | 09:00 |
| merkuralex_ | you said you had one before... | 09:00 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 09:00 |
| Stskeeps | johnx: ah, insomnia? | 09:00 |
| MaceN8x0 | no i didnt | 09:01 |
| merkuralex_ | were you being sarcastic or did i misread | 09:01 |
| MaceN8x0 | ;) | 09:01 |
| merkuralex_ | dammit this irc thing is killing me | 09:01 |
| MaceN8x0 | you must have misread | 09:01 |
| *** ab[out] is now known as ab | 09:01 | |
| johnx | Stskeeps, nah, too much caffeine at work dealing with our insane content repository software | 09:01 |
| MaceN8x0 | but | 09:01 |
| merkuralex_ | there is a million messages flowing whenever im talking or reading lol | 09:01 |
| slonopotamus | Stskeeps, i never claimed that gentoo is user-friendly (at least in common meaning of this word == 'low entry barrier') | 09:01 |
| MaceN8x0 | psp requires a batter | 09:01 |
| johnx | now I need to come down and eventually sleep | 09:01 |
| MaceN8x0 | that is modded | 09:01 |
| MaceN8x0 | you can buy them online im sure | 09:01 |
| merkuralex_ | oh yeah the pandora battery | 09:01 |
| MaceN8x0 | the copy protection is in the battery | 09:02 |
| merkuralex_ | im thinking about getting a psp | 09:02 |
| merkuralex_ | i need something pocketable to play a crap load of games on | 09:02 |
| MaceN8x0 | so is that what happened to pandora? | 09:02 |
| Stskeeps | slonopotamus: hehe | 09:02 |
| MaceN8x0 | they decided to make psp batteries instead? | 09:02 |
| sneakret | Get an N800. :) | 09:02 |
| MaceN8x0 | :) | 09:02 |
| sneakret | It's cheap now, I'm sure. | 09:02 |
| bbigras | I have a psp with a custom firmware, I have the old one. It was softmodded with a savegame and the gta game | 09:02 |
| merkuralex_ | hahaha MaceN8x0 nice :D | 09:02 |
| MaceN8x0 | johnx, lay off the cocaine | 09:02 |
| merkuralex_ | bbigras, how do you like it? is it fun or do you find it gets boring fast? what games do you play the most? | 09:03 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 09:03 |
| sneakret | PONG!! | 09:03 |
| merkuralex_ | bbigras, also do you play anything via wifi? | 09:03 |
| merkuralex_ | PONG!!!!! | 09:03 |
| merkuralex_ | ME WANT!!! | 09:03 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 09:03 |
| * MaceN8x0 looks at the # name and looks at merkuralex_ | 09:04 | |
| sneakret | Wifi pong! | 09:04 |
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| MaceN8x0 | :) | 09:04 |
| merkuralex_ | actually wifi tetris sounds fun to me | 09:04 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 09:04 |
| merkuralex_ | # name? | 09:04 |
| sneakret | netris-style! | 09:04 |
| merkuralex_ | MaceN8x0 you confuse me | 09:04 |
| slonopotamus | ... | 09:04 |
| MaceN8x0 | adhoc only works for playing against someone | 09:04 |
| sneakret | I like the netris rules. | 09:04 |
| MaceN8x0 | on a psp | 09:04 |
| MaceN8x0 | no adhoc tethering | 09:04 |
| sneakret | (better than tetrinet) | 09:04 |
| merkuralex_ | MaceN8x0, yes but there is also mohaa and a few other games that work over wifi | 09:05 |
| merkuralex_ | not just adhoc | 09:05 |
| MaceN8x0 | you need an ap | 09:05 |
| merkuralex_ | i think like 16 players per game or something | 09:05 |
| MaceN8x0 | no bt either right? | 09:05 |
| merkuralex_ | nope | 09:05 |
| MaceN8x0 | no dun bt support for psp? | 09:06 |
| MaceN8x0 | damn :) | 09:06 |
| MaceN8x0 | sounds like a lame thing to have | 09:06 |
| merkuralex_ | i don't think so atleast | 09:06 |
| MaceN8x0 | just lug a ps3 and small tv with a car battery and dc to ac converter | 09:06 |
| bbigras | merkuralex_: I play a bit with the new final fantasy dissidia, also a bit with disgaea. I never played online with it. I do get bored a bit fast with it, it seems the homebrew community is not active anymore (I'm not sure). When I bought it I should have invest a bit more for a n810 | 09:06 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 09:06 |
| MaceN8x0 | would be a lot more fun | 09:06 |
| MaceN8x0 | and you stay in shape tooo | 09:07 |
| merkuralex_ | MaceN8x0 i don't have that kind of money remember! :D | 09:07 |
| MaceN8x0 | homebrew | 09:07 |
| MaceN8x0 | my wii kicks ass with its external hd | 09:07 |
| MaceN8x0 | merkuralex_, sell drugs | 09:07 |
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| merkuralex_ | bbigras, okay thanks for answering my questions.... i have one more how long have you had the psp? | 09:07 |
| merkuralex_ | MaceN8x0, LOL | 09:08 |
| merkuralex_ | MaceN8x0, not something i plan to do lol | 09:08 |
| sneakret | and how did you get maemo working on it? | 09:08 |
| * sneakret pretends to be on-topic. | 09:08 | |
| merkuralex_ | sneakret LOL? | 09:08 |
| sneakret | :) | 09:08 |
| merkuralex_ | caps l-o-l for the win | 09:08 |
| merkuralex_ | .... looks like a tie-fighter | 09:08 |
| merkuralex_ | l-0-l | 09:09 |
| sneakret | Hey, it does. | 09:09 |
| merkuralex_ | peew peew peew | 09:09 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 09:09 |
| bbigras | merkuralex_: I don't remember, maybe 2 years, maybe more. there's not many good game for the psp, maybe it will have more now with the pspgo thing | 09:09 |
| merkuralex_ | bbigras, how long did it take you to start getting bored with it? | 09:09 |
| johnx | MaceN8x0, if any piece of software was going to drive me to drugs, it'd be this one | 09:09 |
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| merkuralex_ | johnx, hey i can even sell you the drugs... seems MaceN8x0 thinks i should sell them so ill start with you :D | 09:10 |
| merkuralex_ | l-o-l | 09:10 |
| johnx | give it another week or so for this software to finish crushing my spirit | 09:11 |
| merkuralex_ | hahahaha | 09:11 |
| johnx | right now I just feel like beer | 09:11 |
| merkuralex_ | :P | 09:11 |
| bbigras | merkuralex_: as soon as I get access to my ps3. I only use my psp when I go to my parent house where there's no internet and everybody go to sleep before midnight and I have to wait before I can sleep. If I had a psp when I was young instead of a gameboy I don't think I would have been bored | 09:12 |
| merkuralex_ | bbigras, ahh well theres my answer lol all i do is work/school and play games and i think having the psp would be good as im out of the house alot... if im in the house i use my pc for gaming. | 09:13 |
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| merkuralex_ | considering work is essentially programming i no longer have programming as a hobby... its just too much lol | 09:14 |
| merkuralex_ | ... the psp 2000 and 3000 are the same price | 09:15 |
| merkuralex_ | but the 3000 is not hacked yet as far as i know | 09:15 |
| bbigras | merkuralex_: http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2008/11/datel_lite_blue_tool_hacks_into_psp3000.html not sure if it's real | 09:16 |
| merkuralex_ | bbigras, http://psp3000hacks.com/psp-3000-hacks/custom-firmware-on-psp-3000s-gen-a-cfw-released/ | 09:17 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 09:17 |
| bbigras | nice | 09:17 |
| merkuralex_ | i think im going to buy a psp 3000! | 09:18 |
| merkuralex_ | holy crap a new gadget... its been what? 3 weeks | 09:18 |
| sneakret | Oh, hey... I can pre-order an N900. I didn't realize that. | 09:18 |
| merkuralex_ | im such a junky | 09:18 |
| merkuralex_ | and yet a cheap junky... | 09:18 |
| MaceN8x0 | johnx, haha | 09:18 |
| MaceN8x0 | that bad? | 09:18 |
| merkuralex_ | sneakret, a bit slow to the game eh? | 09:18 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 09:18 |
| johnx | it's based on tomcat...and it only gets weirder and scarier from there | 09:19 |
| sneakret | Yes. :P | 09:19 |
| sneakret | I signed up to be notified! I was trying to be patient! | 09:19 |
| sneakret | What's the estimated ship date? | 09:19 |
| sneakret | (Since everyone but me knows these things.) | 09:20 |
| aSIMULAtor | oct | 09:20 |
| aSIMULAtor | or something | 09:20 |
| * aSIMULAtor looks at her n900 and giggles | 09:20 | |
| RST38h | Maemo in VR glasses! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGwvZWyLiBU | 09:20 |
| merkuralex_ | oct 3rd? | 09:20 |
| RST38h | (btw, what product number is the glasses? =)) | 09:20 |
| merkuralex_ | i think | 09:20 |
| merkuralex_ | not sure | 09:20 |
| Stskeeps | n900 and not n00? :P | 09:20 |
| aSIMULAtor | doesn't even say anything on the device :P | 09:21 |
| Stskeeps | neat | 09:21 |
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| merkuralex_ | RST38h.... great.... now i have a new want... thanks | 09:23 |
| merkuralex_ | hahaha | 09:23 |
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| merkuralex_ | the second that comes out | 09:23 |
| aSIMULAtor | does anyone know if the guy who made drnoksnes goes on irc? | 09:23 |
| merkuralex_ | im going to want it no matter what price | 09:23 |
| merkuralex_ | lol | 09:23 |
| * RST38h looks for videos of starships to show to merkuralex | 09:23 | |
| RST38h | aSIMULATor: javispedro here | 09:23 |
| aSIMULAtor | thanks | 09:24 |
| wazd | remember to take of your dumb glasses on the sun, stupid woman! :D | 09:24 |
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| RST38h | and place them where I can steal them and go back to my time machine | 09:24 |
| Stskeeps | morning danielwilms | 09:24 |
| danielwilms | hey Stskeeps, good morning :) | 09:25 |
| wazd | RST38h: I wonder how they think I can focus on such close object as lens | 09:26 |
| wazd | RST38h: it's impossible | 09:26 |
| merkuralex_ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq0KpLUkCJ4&feature=channel | 09:27 |
| wazd | that's why retinal projectors rock | 09:27 |
| RST38h | wazd: well, to her, the object is a few meters ahead | 09:27 |
| wazd | merkuralex_: that's not creative app on n900, that's a remote control app on n900 | 09:27 |
| RST38h | wazd: at least this is how it works with the current generation of glasses. But it looks like the glasses in the vidoe are fake. | 09:27 |
| merkuralex_ | wazd, yeah it seemed rather pointless | 09:27 |
| wazd | RST38h: no way! I thought it's real :D | 09:28 |
| RST38h | Ehehe | 09:28 |
| sneakret | 00:20:23 ~~~ aSIMULAtor looks at her n900 and giggles | 09:28 |
| merkuralex_ | hahahah | 09:28 |
| sneakret | :P | 09:28 |
| RST38h | That is why I hate those concept "photos" | 09:28 |
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| wazd | RST38h: and anyway, making phone/pc/whatever as glasses is stupid, cause I already have one :) | 09:30 |
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| wazd | RST38h: how do I suppose to wear another pair :) | 09:30 |
| wazd | that's why retimal projectors rock again | 09:31 |
| wazd | retinal* | 09:31 |
| * RST38h would be scared to try retinal projector | 09:32 | |
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| wazd | RST38h: it's not that bright :) | 09:34 |
| wazd | RST38h: it just shows picture right on your retina, not on the screen and then on your retina :) | 09:34 |
| RST38h | Still, got a laser pointer into my eye once (subway, some idiot was flashing it onto oncoming train), do not want to repeat the experience | 09:34 |
| wazd | RST38h: laser pointer is very pright | 09:35 |
| RST38h | guess so, but still scared of the retinal projection =) | 09:35 |
| * Stskeeps notes to himself he really shouldn't get into the maelstroem of /opt discussion. | 09:35 | |
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| RST38h | Sts: it's religious | 09:35 |
| RST38h | Sts: Leave 'em | 09:35 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: that's my plan right now | 09:36 |
| RST38h | My guess is that the whole reason for /opt (as opposed to other choices) is to avoid rehashing the whole system setup and retesting it | 09:36 |
| RST38h | not the worst choice, so let it be | 09:37 |
| timeless_mbp | anyone here familiar w/ msgfmt? what does "1 untranslated message" mean and how do i find i? | 09:37 |
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| wazd | RST38h: in fact, they can be very low powered, cause they don't need light cannon to reflect light off the screen | 09:39 |
| wazd | RST38h: they only current problem is resolution | 09:39 |
| RST38h | wazd: there is still overhead on other parts... | 09:39 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: i like /opt because of the simple fact it doesn't break diablo and such :P | 09:40 |
| wazd | RST38h: they just cant show something useful in such small space | 09:40 |
| RST38h | Argh I WILL BE BACK | 09:40 |
| MaceN8x0 | hm | 09:40 |
| MaceN8x0 | wonder why sftp goes so slow on my n810 | 09:41 |
| Jaffa | Morning, all | 09:41 |
| Stskeeps | morning jaffa | 09:41 |
| Myrtti | moin | 09:41 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: It's still worth getting involved to work out best practices now that we *have* /opt to work with. | 09:41 |
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| MaceN8x0 | 2:45 for 200MB? | 09:42 |
| MaceN8x0 | ouch | 09:42 |
| MaceN8x0 | screw this, im just going to head home | 09:42 |
| Jaffa | e.g. is it bad if /opt is used on diablo? what about Mer? should optification be entirely automatic or should developers for greenfield apps be encouraged to use it? | 09:42 |
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| Jaffa | e.g. when should /opt be used on fremantle? what does qgil's "500KB (incl. dependencies)" mean, if an app depends on Python, Ruby, Qt, ...? | 09:43 |
| johnx | for use on mer: probably just follow whatever guidelines ubuntu puts forth | 09:44 |
| MaceN8x0 | or symlink other dirs | 09:44 |
| Jaffa | johnx: Ubuntu are going to put forth guidelines on how Maemo applications designed for /opt usage should work? | 09:44 |
| Stskeeps | as long as it follows FHS, i'm happy | 09:44 |
| MaceN8x0 | use /mnt for the actual device | 09:45 |
| MaceN8x0 | and symlink all larger dirs to it | 09:45 |
| MaceN8x0 | :) | 09:45 |
| johnx | Jaffa, I said Mer, not maemo | 09:45 |
| Jaffa | johnx: Yes, but a large source of finger friendly software for Mer is going to come from Maemo | 09:45 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: So, according to http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#OPTADDONAPPLICATIONSOFTWAREPACKAGES, a package which installs most of itself to /opt/_package_/ is actually OK | 09:46 |
| MaceN8x0 | heh, forward porting? | 09:46 |
| MaceN8x0 | how odd | 09:46 |
| MaceN8x0 | mer and maemo will not like each other if repackaging is required | 09:47 |
| Stskeeps | Jaffa: right, but that part wasn't actually painted out :) | 09:47 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: Indeed. I've just looked it up :) | 09:47 |
| slonopotamus | MaceN8x0, repackaging was always required for maemo | 09:47 |
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| Jaffa | And the advantages of repackaging for Maemo still apply (user friendly names, icons in HAM) in Mer | 09:48 |
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| L0cutus | re | 09:52 |
| MaceN8x0 | huh? | 09:52 |
| slonopotamus | Jaffa, that doesn't explain the need to repackage shared libs | 09:52 |
| MaceN8x0 | wtf is up with the edgelike speeds im getting | 09:52 |
| Jaffa | slonopotamus: What need to repackage shared libs? | 09:52 |
| MaceN8x0 | 21KB for an sftp xfer? | 09:53 |
| johnx | MaceN8x0, maybe their nerf encrypted traffic | 09:53 |
| MaceN8x0 | possibly | 09:53 |
| MaceN8x0 | im going to have to test this later on another device | 09:53 |
| johnx | s/their/they | 09:54 |
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| slonopotamus | Jaffa, dpkg -l | grep 'ii lib' | grep maemo | 09:55 |
| Stskeeps | slonopotamus: that's scratchbox insanity.. | 09:56 |
| Jaffa | slonopotamus: Lots of Nokia-provided ones, patches expected. Third party ones packaged by people. Some direct uploads of existing packages from Debian/Ubuntu. | 09:57 |
| Jaffa | slonopotamus: I can take a source package from Debian for a shared lib and upload it to the autobuilder; and I can take a shared lib deb from Debian and install it. | 09:57 |
| Jaffa | Sometimes the `Depends' will be weird for Maemo. Is that what you mean? But that's getting better too. | 09:58 |
| timeless_mbp | Jaffa: so... | 09:59 |
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| timeless_mbp | Mer should really offer to reformat the n810's internal flash | 09:59 |
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| Stskeeps | it might eventually | 09:59 |
| timeless_mbp | because the only safe way for this stuff to work is if you have two volumes | 09:59 |
| timeless_mbp | one for /home/opt - /home/user and one for /home/user/MyDocs | 09:59 |
| Stskeeps | sometimes it's actually easier to support n810 than n800, heh | 09:59 |
| timeless_mbp | the latter gets unmounted when used w/ usb mass storage | 10:00 |
| timeless_mbp | the n800 is actually less of a problem | 10:00 |
| timeless_mbp | just ask the user to install a big internal card that they don't expect to share :) | 10:00 |
| johnx | just tell people they can't remove the internal card? | 10:00 |
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| timeless_mbp | pretty much | 10:00 |
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| timeless_mbp | you can offer to split it the same way you would the n810 | 10:01 |
| johnx | it's kinda icky, but way better than trying to handle the case of some libs magically disappearing at random | 10:01 |
| Stskeeps | cute, scroll wheel works on maemo file choosers | 10:01 |
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| qwerty12_N810 | Scroll wheel works anywhere a HildonPannableArea is used | 10:02 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 10:02 |
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| wazd | https://twitter.com/wazd <- goddamned | 10:39 |
| Jaffa | wazd: there's also a "jaffa" who was in a similar situation when I joined :-( | 10:41 |
| wazd | Jaffa: we need to hi-jack our nicknames somehow) | 10:41 |
| wazd | https://twitter.com/zhilin <- daaaamn | 10:42 |
| * Jaffa is always too late to these new parties to get the name he wants | 10:43 | |
| wazd | dzaw is ok :D | 10:43 |
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| Corsac | * Name corsac | 10:45 |
| Corsac | * Location China | 10:45 |
| Corsac | that's wrong! | 10:45 |
| Corsac | though I don't intent to twit anyway | 10:45 |
| wazd | https://twitter.com/1 <- that's a lucker :D | 10:46 |
| Stskeeps | /404 ? | 10:46 |
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| wazd | Stskeeps: :D | 10:47 |
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| wazd | Stskeeps: it's 404 actually :) | 10:47 |
| johnx | what about the more obscure HTTP codes? | 10:48 |
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| wazd | 503?) | 10:48 |
| johnx | nice :) | 10:48 |
| wazd | I don't want to be /andrewzhilin :( | 10:48 |
| wazd | but whatever anyway :) | 10:49 |
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| johnx | what about zandrew? | 10:49 |
| Corsac | can fremantle talk to laconi.ca servers? | 10:50 |
| Stskeeps | mauku maybe | 10:50 |
| wazd | johnx: that's kind of african name :D | 10:50 |
| johnx | interesting. I didn't know :) | 10:50 |
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| wazd | johnx: I don't know for sure too, but it sounds like :) | 10:51 |
| wazd | oh, Tim Samoff is in Twitter everywhere too! :D | 10:52 |
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| wazd | http://maemo.tv/ lol :) | 10:53 |
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| johnx | holee crap. first time I saw a dev unit on a public site :) | 10:54 |
| johnx | wonder if that's sanctioned | 10:54 |
| wazd | johnx: well, it's from conversations.nokia.com, so I guess | 10:55 |
| Stskeeps | dev unit where? :P | 10:56 |
| johnx | maemo.tv, but it's a link to a youtube video "Linked Internet UI Concept on Maemo" | 10:56 |
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| Stskeeps | i should really install flash on this desktop.. | 10:57 |
| johnx | I eventually gave in | 10:58 |
| johnx | flashblock is a nice balance | 10:58 |
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| * lcukx41 likes flashblock | 10:59 | |
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| lcukx41 | i even contributed bugfix to it in the past :) | 10:59 |
| lcukx41 | (my first ever open source contribution infact! | 11:00 |
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| Jaffa | OK, talk of two repos in the /opt discussion has strayed into crazy territory for a while | 11:20 |
| lcukx41 | its been crazy for a while | 11:23 |
| * lcukx41 afks hto, cya later jaffa | 11:24 | |
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| RST38h | Moo all | 11:33 |
| RST38h | Discussing directory structure is what Linux gurus like best because it does not involve doing any actual work (i.e. writing code) =) | 11:34 |
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| lbt | RST38h: it's down to the fact that linux can do directory structures... not "oh bollocks, lets bung it all in \Windows" | 11:39 |
| thux | is linux more flexible than other operation systems? | 11:41 |
| RST38h | lbt: True, but a real believer should take it to the extreme (see Gobolinux) | 11:41 |
| RST38h | lbt: And it is never complete unless your ls command shows directory structure in XML =) | 11:42 |
| lbt | thux: no, but linux devs have more useful stuff between their ears... | 11:42 |
| thux | hehe | 11:42 |
| lbt | n'est pas? RST38h? | 11:42 |
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| jrocha | lbt, thux: depends on the other OSs, Linux is pretty modular and that makes it really flexible | 11:43 |
| lbt | jrocha: to-whit the /opt discussion.... sigh.... choice is not always good | 11:43 |
| lbt | *NO* put it in /usr or you don't get a license.... BAD Nokia | 11:44 |
| RST38h | lbt: Somebody gave a link yesterday - gobolinux is where they place each app in its own dir, MacOSX/NeXT style | 11:44 |
| RST38h | There are more modular OSes than Linux. AmigaOS comes to mind =) | 11:44 |
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| thux | can't one change system folders location in windows then? | 11:45 |
| RST38h | not easily | 11:45 |
| thux | you cannot make links? | 11:46 |
| RST38h | no | 11:46 |
| RST38h | You can make "links" but not links | 11:46 |
| Jaffa | lbt: Although Windows actually is better (on the whole) on having apps not spread everywhere | 11:46 |
| thux | not like ln -s | 11:46 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: You can make links too on NTFS | 11:46 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: just not being done then | 11:46 |
| lbt | Jaffa: true... they can't get out of C: | 11:46 |
| Jaffa | SysInternals has a "junction" tool which exposes the API | 11:47 |
| RST38h | perfect, links are made with 3rd party tool from a hacking site | 11:47 |
| Jaffa | lbt: Most apps I install in Windows go in D:\Apps\<package> and I know that unless it's installing drivers everything apart from its start menu shortcut and per-user data is in there. | 11:47 |
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| Jaffa | RST38h: ...owned by MS. | 11:47 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: even funnier =) | 11:47 |
| jrocha | shouldn't we make a new channel for these talks that have appeared at least since yesterday? we could call it: #classicdiscussionsthatshouldbeconcluded10yearsago | 11:48 |
| jrocha | :) | 11:48 |
| RST38h | Well, if you have got a better topic to discuss here... | 11:48 |
| * Jaffa finds the /opt stuff even more humourous given that - as Stskeeps pointed out - it's entirely compatible with the FHS | 11:49 | |
| Stskeeps | bacon? | 11:49 |
| Jaffa | "Will Maemo 5 run on my 770? I want those whizzy 3D effects, and the browser seems so much more responsive!" | 11:49 |
| Jaffa | "And I'd love to make cell phone calls on it" | 11:49 |
| Myrtti | BAAAAACCCOOONNNN | 11:50 |
| Myrtti | actually, no | 11:50 |
| Myrtti | Ice crean | 11:50 |
| Myrtti | cream, even | 11:50 |
| Jaffa | Bacon ice cream? | 11:50 |
| RST38h | bacon flavored ice cream, yea | 11:50 |
| inz | with anal leakage! | 11:50 |
| Myrtti | oh, like Heston has | 11:51 |
| Myrtti | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6CLoRuvGcY | 11:51 |
| lbt | Jaffa: the problem is not writing apps to /opt | 11:51 |
| lbt | it is porting existing apps/dependencies | 11:52 |
| RST38h | lbt: and what is the exact problem? | 11:52 |
| lbt | if I write an app that uses, say, slapd | 11:52 |
| RST38h | ok... | 11:52 |
| Jaffa | Myrtti: Indeed. | 11:52 |
| lbt | then I have to repackage slapd to /opt | 11:52 |
| lbt | AAARRGHHH | 11:52 |
| lbt | s/anything/slapd/ | 11:52 |
| Jaffa | lbt: indeed | 11:52 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: or use optify! :p | 11:53 |
| Stskeeps | i wonder how ldconfig likes symlinks | 11:53 |
| Jaffa | lbt: But, in my mental model the 100MB could be enough for the low-level things, and big apps/data can go in /opt | 11:53 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: It's fine with it | 11:53 |
| Myrtti | ♥ Heston Blumenthal | 11:53 |
| lbt | I'm not opposed to /opt | 11:53 |
| * Jaffa had no problems with ldconfig and symlinks in WIMP OS (a Gobolinux-like, RISC OS-like, ROX-AppDir-based Linux-kernel running OS) | 11:53 | |
| lbt | it is a shame they put the burden on *everyone else* | 11:53 |
| johnx | Jaffa, the only thing that concerns me is big deps: python, qt | 11:53 |
| Jaffa | lbt: Tell me about it. | 11:54 |
| johnx | well mainly those two :) | 11:54 |
| lbt | rather than doing it once for the base system | 11:54 |
| johnx | maybe throw in webkit | 11:54 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: there was argumentation for that | 11:54 |
| Jaffa | lbt: But it's not going to change in the few weeks left | 11:54 |
| Jaffa | johnx: Yeah. Python's particularly problematic with its site-packages | 11:54 |
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| Jaffa | johnx: I say this as the packager of python-twitter and python-evolution | 11:54 |
| lbt | Jaffa: I understand | 11:54 |
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| lbt | however Nokia still deserve a kicking for getting it wrong | 11:55 |
| RST38h | lbt: Wait, this is not entirely correct | 11:55 |
| Stskeeps | 'lo m-vo | 11:55 |
| lbt | so they learn from their mistakes | 11:55 |
| lbt | :) | 11:55 |
| RST38h | lbt: First of all only large apps go to opt | 11:55 |
| m-vo | Stskeeps, hi! | 11:55 |
| Stskeeps | m-vo: and welcome to /opt discussion hell :P | 11:55 |
| m-vo | I guess I missed the /opt flamefest... | 11:55 |
| * lbt can cope with /opt RST38h .... trust me ;) | 11:55 | |
| RST38h | lbt: Secondly, your app binary or some libs may still go to /usr, and only share goes to opt | 11:55 |
| m-vo | Yeah, didn't think of joining #maemo, stupid me. | 11:55 |
| m-vo | I'm replying to andrew right now about using /opt/maemo/ instead of /opt/<package>/. | 11:56 |
| m-vo | Dunno, any logs I should read before that? | 11:57 |
| RST38h | that would cause a problem | 11:57 |
| RST38h | can you already guess it or should I tell? | 11:57 |
| m-vo | The main message is: DON'T PANIC! | 11:57 |
| Stskeeps | m-vo: FHS seems to object a bit on that.. /opt/packagename is saner? | 11:57 |
| RST38h | Gentlemen, there is a problem with /opt/<package> on Maemo | 11:57 |
| RST38h | Not a generic problem but a problem when applied to Maemo | 11:58 |
| m-vo | I'll write the mail first before explaining here. | 11:58 |
| RST38h | Generically, only huge packages (i.e. KDE, SUNW) go to /opt | 11:58 |
| m-vo | More efficient that way, I guess. | 11:58 |
| RST38h | So, there are few of them and it does not take much to add their bin/lib/etc directories to paths | 11:58 |
| * lbt is watching a left-handed pigeon having a fight... | 11:58 | |
| RST38h | On Maemo though, we can expect dozens of packages in /opt | 11:58 |
| qwerty12_N810 | A shitton of Maemo is not standard; why is compliance with the FHS so important anyway? | 11:59 |
| m-vo | Maybe just very quickly: forget about /opt and replace it with /space in your discussions. | 11:59 |
| RST38h | If each of them gets its own bin directory, there will be Trouble | 11:59 |
| m-vo | It's a fuckup-inside-a-fuckup that we use /opt/maemo instead of /space. | 11:59 |
| wazd | I think we've really screwed up with OMWeather | 11:59 |
| RST38h | what is /space? | 11:59 |
| johnx | RST38h, symlinks man. symlinks. | 11:59 |
| m-vo | It's a new invention! | 11:59 |
| RST38h | wazd: looks forecish now? | 11:59 |
| RST38h | johnx: but having too many symlinks is not such a good idea either, right? | 12:00 |
| wazd | RST38h: no, but foreca now looks like OMWeather) | 12:00 |
| m-vo | RST38h, we just want a directory on another partition that we can put some files into. | 12:00 |
| m-vo | I have used /space for this in the past when I needed it. | 12:00 |
| wazd | RST38h: and it's used in every n900 showcase video | 12:00 |
| RST38h | wazd: Want suggestion? ;) | 12:00 |
| johnx | RST38h, why? who cares about 300 - 1000 symlinks? | 12:00 |
| johnx | that's the number we're talking about, absolute tops | 12:00 |
| RST38h | johnx: yesterday people complained about symlink pollution being wrong | 12:00 |
| RST38h | wazd: paint it in khokhloma and let Foreca guys copy that =) | 12:01 |
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| Jaffa | RST38h: For /usr/bin it's not too bad; especially since Debian's alternatives system already uses it | 12:01 |
| johnx | RST38h, it's definitely the lesser of two evils vs PATH pollution | 12:01 |
| m-vo | johnx, I agree. | 12:01 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: I objec tto symlink pollution across billions of directories, but for one or two (and compared with PATH pollution) | 12:01 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: you will also have to symlink lis etc | 12:01 |
| RST38h | But with /opt/maemo you only pollute path with 1 (one) more string | 12:02 |
| m-vo | symlinks are not perfectly invisible, but I don't think there will be many, if any, problems. | 12:02 |
| RST38h | Not that bad, right? | 12:02 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: Well, as I said above, my mental model has /opt for apps rather than libs; but that is an avoidance of the issue | 12:02 |
| wazd | RST38h: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMzz2EIK408 0:51 | 12:02 |
| m-vo | RST38h, it's unfortunately quite impossible to change the OS to recognize /opt/maemo as another prefix. | 12:03 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: Except tools like maemo-optify are going to put the symlinks into /usr/bin, and for D-Bus services, and for icons, and for .desktop files. | 12:03 |
| lbt | Jaffa: Qt is being built to install in /opt IIRC | 12:03 |
| Jaffa | lbt: Yeah, that's a special case ;-) | 12:03 |
| m-vo | RST38h, given the Fremantle schedule that is. | 12:03 |
| m-vo | It's of course perfectly possible in theory. | 12:03 |
| m-vo | But also a bit pointless. Let's make the hack as invisble as we can. | 12:03 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Oh....Wrong. | 12:03 |
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| * lbt wonders if the autobuilder could add some X-Maemo-opt: 10M X-Maemo-root: 1M to the .deb to help HAM?? | 12:04 | |
| RST38h | wazd: THAT is omweather??? | 12:04 |
| Jaffa | The real soln is one of the unionfs implementations. And the problems with them which affect long term usage and mainline merging aren't relevant in this "overlay /opt/maemo|/space on /" ossie | 12:04 |
| Jaffa | lbt: Help HAM how? | 12:04 |
| wazd | RST38h: no, that's foreca) | 12:04 |
| RST38h | wazd: Ah ok | 12:04 |
| lbt | space calculations | 12:04 |
| RST38h | wazd: So they are not shipping omweather out of the box? | 12:05 |
| Jaffa | lbt: But what'll HAM do with them? | 12:05 |
| Jaffa | lbt: Oh, you mean "unable to install - not enough space?" | 12:05 |
| lbt | yes | 12:05 |
| * m-vo lunch, then meeting, then more optification... :) | 12:05 | |
| wazd | RST38h: but as I've said before, some mistrious nokia designer told vlad to draw same huge stuff | 12:05 |
| Jaffa | lbt: There's already some information in Packages for it - but the realtime compression fscks it up | 12:05 |
| X-Fade | lbt: A package already specifies how much space is needed? | 12:05 |
| wazd | RST38h: They never meant to I think | 12:06 |
| lbt | 10M free in / 500M free in opt.... package is 50M.... | 12:06 |
| lbt | yes/no? | 12:06 |
| X-Fade | lbt: No changes to HAM will be possible anymore | 12:06 |
| lbt | just an idea anyhow | 12:06 |
| RST38h | wazd: variable NxM organization in OMWeather is so much better | 12:07 |
| johnx | X-Fade, possible for a point release, right? | 12:07 |
| johnx | maybe 3-6 months out? | 12:07 |
| X-Fade | lbt: I suggested a while ago to do the same as in S60. Where you can say where to install an app. | 12:07 |
| wazd | RST38h: well, there are some weird innovations like "simple mode" | 12:07 |
| X-Fade | johnx: I have no idea. Outside the Nokia firewall for things like that ;) | 12:07 |
| lbt | :) | 12:07 |
| johnx | X-Fade, from experience: that got kind of ugly in the zaurus world | 12:08 |
| RST38h | wazd: aka "nokia mode"? | 12:08 |
| X-Fade | johnx: Yeah, installing on removable media is also a pain. | 12:08 |
| wazd | RST38h: well, in other words yep | 12:08 |
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| johnx | if installing things to external media then a whole different package system is needed | 12:08 |
| Stskeeps | i vote for rpm! | 12:08 |
| * Stskeeps ducks | 12:09 | |
| wazd | RST38h: I tried to convince Vlad that there's no need in making simple mode when you have all your settings arranged properly | 12:09 |
| RST38h | wazd: well, if I were doing it, I would at some point suggested to them that in order to insist on particular features they have to pay for development | 12:09 |
| adeus | mmm | 12:09 |
| adeus | you could just modify dpkg | 12:09 |
| lcukx41 | Stskeeps, rpm! sod that, installshield ftw :p | 12:09 |
| RST38h | wazd: I mean, doing this is not wrong by itself, but what is the point in doing it for free if you are not even planning on doing it for yourself | 12:09 |
| Stskeeps | .bat files for installation | 12:09 |
| johnx | adeus, package a is installed to internal flash. package b is installed to removable sd. a depends on b | 12:10 |
| wazd | RST38h: ask Vlad :) | 12:10 |
| * lcukx41 has a big problem | 12:10 | |
| RST38h | I guess he can figure things out on his own :) | 12:10 |
| adeus | johnx, MAGIC HAPPENS and it works | 12:10 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Out of bacon? | 12:10 |
| adeus | :) | 12:10 |
| lcukx41 | everytime i ssh into machine it reboots | 12:10 |
| wazd | RST38h: they even somehow thrown me off the ship for a month | 12:10 |
| lcukx41 | and i think its corrupted the filesystem | 12:10 |
| johnx | lcukx41, did you type ssh root@my-box reboot ? | 12:10 |
| RST38h | lcuk: somebody set /bin/reboot as your default shell? | 12:10 |
| lcukx41 | i was on a ropy wlan last night | 12:10 |
| lbt | Jaffa: Graham got you on the FHS arguement ;) | 12:10 |
| lcukx41 | lol johnx no | 12:10 |
| lbt | I should have remembered that one | 12:11 |
| RST38h | wazd: there are lots of other cool things to do with the tablet, graphicaly ;) | 12:11 |
| lcukx41 | johnx, tho that actually gives me an idea | 12:11 |
| johnx | adeus, go ask zaurus users how well that worked with sharp's version of qtopia :P | 12:11 |
| lcukx41 | ill do ssh connection out from the tablet | 12:11 |
| lcukx41 | and push files to laptop | 12:11 |
| RST38h | wazd: like CPU load meter that looks like RPM gauge | 12:11 |
| RST38h | wazd: Or, finally, a DECENT clock applet | 12:11 |
| RST38h | wazd: Or CPU temperature gauge that looks like a standard thermometer =) | 12:12 |
| lcukx41 | hard to read | 12:12 |
| lcukx41 | it would have to be so far it would look like a vibrator | 12:12 |
| lcukx41 | fat ^ | 12:12 |
| suihkulokki | moo | 12:13 |
| Jaffa | lbt: yeah :) | 12:13 |
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| RST38h | wazd: In fact, once the APIs are finalized and I finally get a device to debug on, I may have just create initial code for these and let you/qwerty/etc customize look and feel =) | 12:14 |
| wazd_ | RST38h: well, I can always find what to do, but this situation is pretty weird | 12:14 |
| RST38h | wazd: It really sounds as something Vlad has to resolve on his own | 12:15 |
| RST38h | wazd: More or less like the MidnightCommander/Gnome thing | 12:15 |
| lbt | ./configure --prefix=/opt is insane | 12:16 |
| RST38h | where Gnome chose MC as its file manager and for some period of time turned it into a Windows Explorer like thing | 12:16 |
| RST38h | I think it eventually died, while the original console MC continues kicking | 12:16 |
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| wazd_ | RST38h: anyway, that sucks :D | 12:19 |
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| RST38h | wazd:....and that will come to pass too.... | 12:21 |
| wazd_ | RST38h: I hate when something's going wrong, I can't understand why that happened and I'm not allowed to help :) | 12:25 |
| RST38h | you will be once things screw up :) | 12:25 |
| lbt | Jaffa: "We will get rid of this abuse of /opt as fast as we can." Marius..... <<< good chap ;) | 12:26 |
| Stskeeps | heh, but what about those that change their packages to assume it's in /opt? :P | 12:26 |
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| Jaffa | lbt: WHat Stskeeps says | 12:28 |
| wazd_ | RST38h: http://omweather.garage.maemo.org/down/snapshot22.png | 12:28 |
| Jaffa | lbt: If it's going to be replaced in an SSU, then the *only* solution is maemo-optify at the auto-builder. | 12:28 |
| wazd_ | RST38h: http://omweather.garage.maemo.org/down/screenshot_7h.png | 12:28 |
| lbt | Jaffa, Stskeeps ... this is why I like to understand the long term solution.... :) | 12:29 |
| Jaffa | lbt: indeed | 12:29 |
| lbt | it helps ensure the short term ones are in the right direction | 12:29 |
| RST38h | wazd: too huge, does not look configurable :( | 12:30 |
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| lbt | even if they are not the best short-term solutions | 12:30 |
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| RST38h | lbt: long term solution would be to move out the whole /usr | 12:30 |
| lbt | and that is what Marius indicates will happen | 12:30 |
| RST38h | lbt: BUT Nokia folks say there are performance problems when keeping /usr at eMMC | 12:30 |
| lbt | yes | 12:30 |
| lbt | my reply suggests how they can do this | 12:31 |
| wazd_ | RST38h: that's what I say :) | 12:31 |
| lbt | however | 12:31 |
| RST38h | + the problem reflashing of course | 12:31 |
| Stskeeps | /usr/share on emmc, :P | 12:31 |
| lbt | I solved that | 12:31 |
| wazd_ | RST38h: it is configurable though (luckly) | 12:31 |
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| lbt | IIRC there is a problem with linux and symlinks | 12:31 |
| lbt | essentially they're not cached? | 12:31 |
| lbt | not sure | 12:31 |
| lbt | so they cause an i/o read each time? | 12:31 |
| glass | would there end up so much data that it would matter? | 12:32 |
| lbt | not if you do what I suggest | 12:32 |
| RST38h | depends on what data | 12:32 |
| glass | couldn't you cache at where the symlink points? thus removing need for actual reading | 12:32 |
| lbt | I'm really not sure I'm right | 12:32 |
| lbt | it's just ISTR | 12:32 |
| RST38h | lbt: No, I think the eMMC problem has to do with lower physical read performance | 12:32 |
| RST38h | lbt: nothing to do with caching | 12:32 |
| lbt | read my reply to Marius | 12:33 |
| RST38h | wazd: I still think we need a steampunk theme. | 12:33 |
| lbt | also I was concerned about the indirect via /usr on eMMC | 12:33 |
| lbt | *if* my vague knowledge is right | 12:33 |
| RST38h | wazd: Decent one, with UI elements made of "copper" and glass pressure gauges | 12:33 |
| glass | cyberpunk! after all n900 is closest to a 'deck' that there is out there | 12:33 |
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| lbt | back soon | 12:33 |
| glass | RST38h: raytracing ftw for those | 12:34 |
| RST38h | glass: it's a comlog\ | 12:34 |
| RST38h | glass: Not really. They will still end up being pixel art | 12:34 |
| RST38h | because there ain't too many pixels in them even on N900 screen | 12:34 |
| glass | RST38h: still, faster to do | 12:34 |
| glass | than toying with photoshop | 12:34 |
| RST38h | glass: has to look cool, no point doing it otherwise | 12:35 |
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| glass | also glass is a bitch to do pixel by pixel and so are round shapes | 12:36 |
| RST38h | mmmm.... | 12:37 |
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| ccooke | Is it known what day the party will be at the Maemo summit? | 12:41 |
| inz | every day?-) | 12:42 |
| ccooke | heh | 12:42 |
| RST38h | the moment they start giving away free n900s to every participant? | 12:42 |
| ccooke | *laugh* | 12:42 |
| ccooke | What would be *nice* is giving away the pre-ordered ones :-) | 12:43 |
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| timeless_mbp | lbt: it is possible to install windows off c:, and even to not have a c: | 12:53 |
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| timeless_mbp | it isn't easy, but it is possible :) | 12:54 |
| * lbt cares because? | 12:54 | |
| lbt | <grin> | 12:54 |
| glass | yeh i did that once | 12:54 |
| glass | had a broken win on c | 12:54 |
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| RST38h | how do you know it was not using some files from that broken win install? | 12:54 |
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| adeus | I had multiple windows versions installed on separate drives | 12:55 |
| * lbt really doesn't know much about windows. I could never seriously argue against it technically. | 12:55 | |
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| glass | RST38h: well, i did run some files from the c:, i didn't want to reinstall everything | 12:55 |
| RST38h | does not count then :) | 12:55 |
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| * RST38h boots Suse Linux 9! | 12:55 | |
| lbt | RST38h: 9? | 12:55 |
| glass | most windows apps don't care if they're 'installed' or not as long as the files are at the right place relative to the executable | 12:56 |
| RST38h | lbt: at least it says so | 12:56 |
| lbt | 11.1 seems current | 12:57 |
| lbt | not a suse bod either - I just like them and their attitude wrt OBS a lot :) | 12:57 |
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| RST38h | who cares what current is... | 12:58 |
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| lbt | security patches do | 13:00 |
| * Sho_ recently installed SuSE 6.3 | 13:01 | |
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| Sho_ | to see KDE 1.1 again :-) | 13:01 |
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| * RST38h never had success with Suse, had boxed versions since 1.0 and none of them worked out of the box | 13:02 | |
| Andy80 | hi all | 13:02 |
| RST38h | In fact the first Linux that worked out of the box for me was Ubuntu | 13:02 |
| Sho_ | oh, I don't like SuSE either. | 13:02 |
| Sho_ | but it was the only thing with KDE 1.1 I found in the drawer | 13:03 |
| wazd_ | RST38h: top srcret PM :D | 13:03 |
| jrocha | hi Andy80 | 13:03 |
| wazd_ | Andy80: heya | 13:03 |
| RST38h | wazd: btw somebody really has to redraw the icon for internal temperature | 13:03 |
| Andy80 | I think most of you is using ubuntu jaunty, so... you could have had the same problem with xephyr... do you know where I can find an already patched .deb package of Xephyr for Ubuntu 9.04? I'm talking about this bug: http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21591 | 13:04 |
| Andy80 | jrocha: hi :) | 13:04 |
| wazd_ | RST38h: well, there was separate icon for both my sets | 13:04 |
| wazd_ | RST38h: but Vlad desided to keep Contour one | 13:04 |
| RST38h | and you can have "local conditions" icon based on the light sensor reading (i.e. dark = cloudy, totally dark = night) | 13:04 |
| RST38h | really has ot be part of icon set... | 13:05 |
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| wazd_ | RST38h: http://s16.radikal.ru/i190/0909/44/921908a085f1.png <- glance icon :) | 13:05 |
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| RST38h | wazd: Yahooo! N920! | 13:07 |
| RST38h | slim metal body no keyboard! | 13:07 |
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| wazd_ | RST38h: oops, I think I just spoiled something :D | 13:14 |
| RST38h | if you guess too close, you know what will happen =) | 13:14 |
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| wazd_ | RST38h: ninjas and stuff, yeah-yeah :) | 13:14 |
| RST38h | ninjas, black helicopters, mysterious suicides by finnish salami | 13:14 |
| wazd_ | RST38h: I like finnish salami :P | 13:15 |
| wazd_ | RST38h: check your PM :) | 13:15 |
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| RST38h | ok | 13:16 |
| RST38h | nothing | 13:17 |
| wazd_ | hmm | 13:17 |
| till- | reindeer-salami? | 13:17 |
| aSIMULAtor | do you like finnish makkara? | 13:23 |
| RST38h | not found here | 13:24 |
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| wazd_ | aSIMULAtor: yeah, never tried :) | 13:24 |
| RST38h | Mhm...Redhat3 went into cardiac arrest | 13:25 |
| wazd_ | but there's still plenty of borsch, schee, pelmenee and stuff :D | 13:25 |
| aSIMULAtor | it's like a big ass hot dog full of yummy nitrate | 13:26 |
| aSIMULAtor | so good for you | 13:26 |
| aSIMULAtor | but finns seem to love eating tons of it for juhannus | 13:26 |
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| wazd_ | RST38h: you're gonna die now :D | 13:30 |
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| wazd_ | RST38h: http://www.hero.mts.ru/ | 13:30 |
| wazd_ | RST38h: check the presentation | 13:30 |
| RST38h | it is a corporate laptop, IT will resurrect it =) | 13:30 |
| wazd_ | RST38h: Have you seen russian translations in nokLas?) | 13:31 |
| RST38h | wazd: Shit, people who write these texts do not deserve a job outside McD | 13:31 |
| RST38h | wazd: Yea, remember Noklas run exactly the same chipset as Arkanoid's cell phone watch | 13:32 |
| RST38h | wazd: So, everything he reports about translations is the same =) | 13:32 |
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| wazd_ | RST38h: I wonder why they don't use some opensourced stuff | 13:32 |
| RST38h | wazd: 'cause it is MTK | 13:33 |
| RST38h | wazd: They do not speak any language but Chinese, they are too large to see anything outside the company, and they are also secretive like a bunch of fucking illuminati | 13:33 |
| wazd_ | RST38h: I just saw nokla 5900 (5730 look) - it has stuff from sonyericsson, nokia, samsung and motorola :D | 13:33 |
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| RST38h | wazd: The physical appearance is designed (designed?) by the "Nokla" people. The chipset and firmware are usually from MTK | 13:34 |
| RST38h | Unless there has been a switch lately | 13:35 |
| wazd_ | "beautiful bookmarks" :D Jezz, how can they release that shit :D | 13:35 |
| wazd_ | I can't stop loling :D | 13:35 |
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| RST38h | wazd: http://arkanoid.livejournal.com/223220.html (see the paragraph on UI messages) | 13:36 |
| wazd_ | "get ready to personalize..." maaaan | 13:36 |
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| wazd_ | voice call, lol :D | 13:38 |
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| RST38h | wazd: OTKL BL! | 13:39 |
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| RST38h | wazd: Which in English should probably translate to DSBL BTCH | 13:40 |
| wazd_ | RST38h: sort of :D | 13:41 |
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| kynde | Anyone used SDL in smartQ5? (fullscreen touchscreen seem flaky) | 13:45 |
| RST38h | wazd: but I suddenly understood where weird htc hero text came from | 13:47 |
| suihkulokki | for everyone in helsinki region, it is today: http://free-thursday.pieni.net/ | 13:48 |
| RST38h | wazd: The original text was targeted at US customers and meant to say that unlike those subsidized feature phones like samsung or lg you can customize the hero | 13:49 |
| kirma | suihkulokki: I suppose I should come to check it out, unless gf denies permission ;) | 13:49 |
| RST38h | wazd: Some lesser light from marketing decided that direct translation will do the job, after all they spent shitload of money on US advertising campaign | 13:50 |
| RST38h | wazd: The thought that nobody here even KNOWS what a locked down subsidized phone is has never crossed their mind(s) | 13:50 |
| suihkulokki | kirma: just remember to say you are meeting stinky geeks, not hot girls =) | 13:52 |
| SpeedEvil | Some geeks are hot girls! | 13:54 |
| SpeedEvil | (though few unfortunately) | 13:54 |
| SpeedEvil | (few girls that is) | 13:54 |
| kirma | instantly after mentioning this on irc, gf called | 13:54 |
| Jaffa | She's deep inspecting your packets | 13:54 |
| kirma | "darling, come to do clothes shopping!" - "you know, I'm actually working full time... and it's not even 2pm" | 13:55 |
| kirma | :I | 13:55 |
| aol_ | hot girls? I'm there ! | 13:55 |
| zerojay | Dunno... I've met my share of hot geek girls. All after I've already gotten married, unfortunately. lol | 13:55 |
| timeless | is that better or worse than deep inspecting your pockets? | 13:55 |
| RST38h | If we assume that krisse is a girl, then we have got at least four girls in maemo.org community | 13:56 |
| suihkulokki | timeless: you are coming. | 13:56 |
| kirma | pocket billiards | 13:56 |
| RST38h | Which is abnormally high for a horde of Linux geeks, if you ask me =) | 13:56 |
| timeless | okia isn't paying for me to go | 14:02 |
| timeless | s/o/no/ | 14:02 |
| infobot | timeless meant: nokia isn't paying for me to go | 14:02 |
| zerojay | So you definitely won't be there then? | 14:02 |
| timeless | i'll definitely be unhappy | 14:03 |
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| aSIMULAtor | 05:56 < kirma> "darling, come to do clothes shopping!" - "you know, I'm actually working full time... and it's not even 2pm" | 14:14 |
| aSIMULAtor | LOLERCOPTER | 14:14 |
| zerojay | If my wife asked me to go clothes shopping, even after 5pm, I'd probably blow my own head off. | 14:15 |
| kirma | well, I also stated that it might be less stressful if she went without me :) | 14:16 |
| kirma | for both... | 14:16 |
| aSIMULAtor | i'm a good wife, i don't ask my husband to do thigns like shopping | 14:17 |
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| timeless | because he'd get all the wrong things? :) | 14:18 |
| kirma | my gadget shopping process is sort of stalled | 14:18 |
| kirma | no need to buy anything too fancy for a while... | 14:18 |
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| aSIMULAtor | no cause i like internet shopping :P | 14:21 |
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| aSIMULAtor | i can't stand going to shops to be honest | 14:21 |
| rkirti | morning everyone | 14:22 |
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| chx | aSIMULAtor: most shops have a really low selection compared to google :P | 14:24 |
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| kirma | thankfully google has also too low woo factor on stuff nowadays... except quite rarely | 14:25 |
| chx | woo? | 14:25 |
| kirma | or wow, whatever you like | 14:25 |
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| zerojayPC | Yes, woo please. | 14:26 |
| RST38h | boo factor | 14:26 |
| kirma | so, occassional gadget purchases turn out to be this sort: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1138 ... unless something like N900 appears after all the waiting ;) | 14:26 |
| RST38h | moo factor too, let us not ignore that | 14:26 |
| zerojayPC | Though Google having a John Woo factor would be cool too. | 14:26 |
| * SpeedEvil loves dealextreme too. | 14:30 | |
| SpeedEvil | (though he tends to purchase parts to make his own flashlights) | 14:31 |
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| RST38h | When SCP-553 attaches itself to a host, hosts have reported that it swims around their head, sometimes staring at or "sucking" on the host. | 14:55 |
| zerojay | Sweet | 14:56 |
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| aol_ | do you guys use Eclipse integration when developing for Maemo5 ? | 15:13 |
| aol_ | what should I look for when I want something more than vi editor? | 15:14 |
| RST38h | pico | 15:14 |
| RST38h | and nano too | 15:14 |
| SpeedEvil | emacs? | 15:14 |
| qwerty12_N810 | notepad | 15:15 |
| SpeedEvil | An application to read punched cards placed on a black surface. | 15:16 |
| SpeedEvil | With a hand-punch tool. | 15:16 |
| aol_ | I would not exactly call those more than vi | 15:17 |
| qwerty12_N810 | How dare you mock notepad :( | 15:17 |
| glass_ | edlin | 15:17 |
| vesa | qt editor apparently | 15:17 |
| glass_ | i actually started j2me with plain notepad.. with wtk | 15:17 |
| aol_ | well I tried to make serious question, but turned out I'm wasting my time | 15:18 |
| glass_ | aol_: lemme know if the eclipse stuff works for that if you try it | 15:18 |
| vesa | aol_: seriously, qt editor seems to be a nice option | 15:18 |
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| aol_ | vesa: can I write non qt code easily with that? | 15:18 |
| aol_ | I'm doing hildon gtk app for work project | 15:18 |
| vesa | it seems so, i'm not doing maemo stuff but i asked a guy sitting next o me who is | 15:19 |
| aol_ | ok | 15:19 |
| vesa | the maemo5 sdk doesn't have qt stuff yet | 15:19 |
| aol_ | I know :) | 15:19 |
| vesa | kk =) | 15:19 |
| RST38h | aol: Ok serious answer to serious question: | 15:19 |
| RST38h | aol: Eclipse is a huge, slow, crash prone piece of fecal matter. | 15:20 |
| RST38h | aol: For a Linux IDE try Geany or (maybe) Anjuta | 15:20 |
| glass | eclipse isn't that bad always. i like it for j2me | 15:20 |
| glass | though dualcore is a must for keeping emu running while editing code | 15:20 |
| aol_ | RST38h: ok does their debugger work with maemo sdk? | 15:21 |
| RST38h | aol: No idea. | 15:21 |
| * RST38h debugs directly on the device | 15:21 | |
| aol_ | there's on device debugger for n900? | 15:21 |
| aol_ | or did you mean you run debugger ON the device | 15:21 |
| RST38h | I run printf()s on the device | 15:22 |
| aol_ | jesus :) | 15:22 |
| RST38h | And can run GDB too, if needed | 15:22 |
| aol_ | I'm so lost here that I almost miss the symbian dev tools :) | 15:23 |
| aol_ | but I guess it gets better when I start knowing stuff | 15:23 |
| RST38h | Symbian has got development tools? | 15:23 |
| glass | i got carbide and google open right now... | 15:24 |
| RST38h | aside from GCCE and a crude "build system" written in PERL? | 15:24 |
| * RST38h never found out what carbide was. Another Eclipse based IDE? | 15:24 | |
| glass | i'm too lazy to setup cmdline properly so building pkges with carbide too now | 15:24 |
| glass | yeh | 15:25 |
| glass | 2.0 isn't bad | 15:25 |
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| glass | before that.. pretty horrible | 15:25 |
| RST38h | into the ditch it goes then. | 15:25 |
| aol_ | it's pretty good nowadays | 15:25 |
| * RST38h is too lazy to have to deal with a java app | 15:25 | |
| aol_ | it's not as good as visual studio, but it works. debugger is good and there on device debugging as well | 15:25 |
| glass | yeh | 15:25 |
| glass | and it's free now | 15:25 |
| glass | and the code indexer doesn't hit the dirt so often now either | 15:26 |
| RST38h | code indexer. hitting dirt. not so often now. | 15:29 |
| * RST38h will pass. | 15:29 | |
| RST38h | it is really easier to edit in FAR editor, then build by running a batch file and send to the device for installation | 15:30 |
| aol_ | I guess I disagree so much that I don't want to ask more questions about the tools :) | 15:34 |
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| * RST38h bets he can debug faster than aol_ =) | 15:34 | |
| aol_ | have fun with your printf's | 15:35 |
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| Macer | hm | 15:36 |
| Macer | wtf | 15:36 |
| Macer | i had to manually adjust my clock? | 15:37 |
| * Macer checks wtf is going on with ntpd | 15:37 | |
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| derf | RST38h: Does that include time spent not writing bugs in the first place? | 15:37 |
| Macer | haha | 15:38 |
| Macer | ironic enough he is proud to fix broken code? :) | 15:39 |
| Macer | if something really required such debugging speed sounds like it would be best to start from scratch and make your own | 15:39 |
| RST38h | derf: Partially, I guess | 15:39 |
| derf | It's actually a serious question (though the irony is not lost on me). | 15:40 |
| RST38h | derf: When your debugging means are limited, you generally try not to be lousy with code | 15:40 |
| Macer | hm | 15:40 |
| Macer | either i'm going nuts | 15:40 |
| Macer | or this isn't working correctly.. i'm downloading something at 25MB/s ? | 15:40 |
| derf | I used to use MSVC quite regularly, and found I used its debugger as a crutch. | 15:40 |
| RST38h | derf: And yes, having printf() is kinda luxury, I debugged on systems that only had 2 LEDs | 15:40 |
| * Macer hopes comcast messed up and it stays this way | 15:40 | |
| derf | Rather than think about what my code was doing, I'd spend all my time in the debugger trying to catch it going wrong. | 15:41 |
| RST38h | derf: Shit, original Win3.1 had no printf(), it only had Beep() | 15:41 |
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| derf | When I shifted primarily to Linux development, I didn't have that luxury anymore. | 15:41 |
| RST38h | derf: I actually use MSVC debugger at work, but it is important to know the limits of what it can do | 15:41 |
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| Macer | cowards! | 15:42 |
| Macer | :) debuggers | 15:42 |
| Macer | for shame | 15:42 |
| RST38h | derf: I.e. it often screws up on Release code, has trouble inspecting stack (especially if you had binary translated code running), may not know certain symbols etc | 15:42 |
| Macer | </troll> | 15:42 |
| derf | RST38h: Well, it was more like, I would write some new code, and rather than review it to see if all of my assumptions were really met, I'd just fire it up and step through it a couple of times. | 15:42 |
| RST38h | derf: When debugging with printf()s you basically ignore all this uncertainty | 15:42 |
| derf | And if it looked good, ship it! | 15:43 |
| RST38h | derf: My students did that all the time | 15:43 |
| derf | Obviously that's quite limited in the number of bugs it can catch. | 15:43 |
| RST38h | derf: Usually were lucky to get a C | 15:43 |
| derf | I _was_ a student at the time. | 15:43 |
| Macer | RST38h: is a printf frowned upon? | 15:43 |
| RST38h | derf: I stopped doing that when coding for air traffic control software company | 15:43 |
| RST38h | Macer: not by me | 15:43 |
| Macer | so their code was just bad? | 15:44 |
| RST38h | derf: The cost of a corner case there could be really high, and there were stories of companies that had to pay it | 15:44 |
| derf | Well, I actually did want to write working code, so what I found was I'd keep coming back to code that was supposedly "working" before and spend more and more time with it in the debugger... | 15:44 |
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| derf | That if I had just spent 5 minutes thinking about when I wrote it, would've saved me hours of time. | 15:45 |
| derf | Now I do the thinking up-front, to avoid having to use gdb. | 15:45 |
| Corsac | if it builds, it's ok | 15:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeesh, that /opt thread really ballooned. | 15:47 |
| vesa | being able to debug things on a real device is a real big bonus. simulators/emulators rarely get things like camera, sensors etc. right | 15:47 |
| Andy80 | Jaffa: ping | 15:47 |
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| RST38h | derf: I only use gdb for stack traces really | 15:48 |
| derf | RST38h: Exactly. | 15:48 |
| Jaffa | Andy80: pong | 15:48 |
| derf | Doing anything complicated in gdb is so painful, it's easier to use printf's. | 15:48 |
| RST38h | derf: Also it is cheaper to write bullet prrof code from the beginning | 15:49 |
| derf | Well, I'm not sure I believe that. | 15:49 |
| vesa | the elusive bullet proof code... | 15:49 |
| RST38h | derf: Then you only get two types of problems: 1) geniune bugs and 2) customer wanted it differently | 15:49 |
| chx | i am wondering will the n900 be able to compile its own stuff? | 15:50 |
| vesa | you have to be quite the genius to spot everything that can go wrong | 15:50 |
| chx | or still crosscompiling is the name of the game | 15:50 |
| derf | Maybe I'm confused if your "bullet proof" code has "genuine bugs". | 15:50 |
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| RST38h | derf: You are not getting into "whathefuckiwantedtodohere"situation | 15:50 |
| Macer | chx: me too | 15:50 |
| Macer | i'm sure you will have to cross compile | 15:50 |
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| Jaffa | chx: The N810 can compile its own stuff, I assume the N900 will be able to (and it's a more realistic prospect) | 15:50 |
| Macer | :-\ | 15:50 |
| Macer | unless you have a touchbook :-D | 15:50 |
| RST38h | derf: Geniune bug - skipped function call, wrong variable name, a typo basically | 15:51 |
| derf | RST38h: I'm not sure I've ever been in that situation, unless it's code I haven't looked at in 5 years. | 15:51 |
| chx | Jaffa: that'd be like compiling KDE on a Pentium III. Only takes a week or four. | 15:51 |
| derf | And even then I can usually remember. | 15:51 |
| RST38h | derf: It is usually trivial to force a university student into that mode | 15:51 |
| RST38h | derf: Even a senior one | 15:51 |
| zerojay | 64 hours for me. | 15:52 |
| derf | I'm convinced that the "usual" university student is not that bright. | 15:52 |
| RST38h | derf: They write code without clear understanding of what they are doing | 15:52 |
| RST38h | derf: Well, I have no idea of how bright they were (did not teach any advanced theory class) | 15:52 |
| RST38h | derf: But most of them surely has vague understanding of what they do | 15:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | derf, most people are not that bright. ;) | 15:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | derf, it stands to reason that university students shouldn't differ from the curve too much. | 15:53 |
| derf | Well, there was a time when you actually had to be moderately intelligent to get into a university. | 15:54 |
| derf | Fortunately, this is America, so we fixed that problem. | 15:54 |
| derf | But at least you'd think the dumb ones would have the decency to go into humanities or something. | 15:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | Woo, mandatory public education! | 15:54 |
| RST38h | derf: Oh they do | 15:54 |
| derf | And stay the heck out of science and engineering. | 15:54 |
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| vesa | university is for learning. i don't see the problem in people who don't know stuff wanting to learn stuff. intelligence is not something you can measure with a stick. | 15:55 |
| RST38h | derf: I am not sure I even want to start on the humanities/business/etc stufdents, because it will become politically incorrect very very soon | 15:55 |
| derf | vesa: "Ignorance" and "Stupidity" are different things. | 15:55 |
| RST38h | vesa: The problem is that they do not want to learn stuff. They want a degree. | 15:55 |
| derf | I have absolutely no problem with the former. It's curable. | 15:55 |
| SpeedEvil | vesa: yes it is! | 15:55 |
| RST38h | vesa: Ok, first they want at least a B for the class, THEN they want a degree based on those Bs | 15:56 |
| vesa | then they should just fail all the exams and not graduate? | 15:56 |
| SpeedEvil | vesa: hit someone with a stick - if they keep coming back - they are not intelligent. | 15:56 |
| RST38h | vesa: Sometimes. | 15:56 |
| SpeedEvil | vesa: Or they like being hit. | 15:56 |
| vesa | SpeedEvil: that's true, i'll give you that =) | 15:56 |
| RST38h | vesa: But see, grades are now weighted | 15:56 |
| RST38h | vesa: So, a lot of substandard students still get degrees | 15:56 |
| vesa | RST38h: that's a problem with the system, not the people abusing it =) | 15:56 |
| RST38h | vesa: Dunno I would say both | 15:57 |
| RST38h | It is a complex problem and it cannot be solved overnight. | 15:57 |
| glass | it's not a problem when substandard people pass.. it's a problem when substandard people become the teachers | 15:57 |
| RST38h | You really have to start solving it with the middle/high school | 15:57 |
| RST38h | glass: Ah, yes, the education majors | 15:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | The public school system isn't helping. | 15:58 |
| derf | glass: Of course, in CS or CE, anyone who was any good would go into industry and make a boatload of money. | 15:58 |
| RST38h | glass: Will it be sufficiently politically correct if I admit that I would like to exterminate them all upon graduation? | 15:58 |
| glass | who would become mcdondalds workers in few years then | 15:58 |
| RST38h | derf: Not necessarily | 15:58 |
| RST38h | derf: Academia has got a lot of perks | 15:58 |
| derf | RST38h: Sure, some people love to teach. | 15:58 |
| glass | RST38h: pretty much yes necessarely | 15:58 |
| glass | over the years it just gets worse as bad people make the good people leave even earlier | 15:59 |
| RST38h | derf: The biggest perk being that you live and work among intelligent people | 15:59 |
| glass | hahah | 15:59 |
| derf | RST38h: Depends on what university you go to. | 15:59 |
| RST38h | derf: You are not getting that in most industrial workplaces | 15:59 |
| derf | There are a handful that are very good. Most are not. | 15:59 |
| RST38h | derf: Ok, let us just say that UMD is sufficiently good | 16:00 |
| RST38h | derf: I have not been to bad ones, fortunately | 16:00 |
| RST38h | derf: You also get more freedom to do what you want to do, less politics (but still some) | 16:00 |
| derf | Less politics? In academia? | 16:01 |
| derf | Are you insane? | 16:01 |
| RST38h | derf: I am not | 16:01 |
| glass | haha | 16:01 |
| glass | he is | 16:01 |
| RST38h | derf: Compare with a large corporation like Boeing or Lokheed | 16:01 |
| glass | of course, russia might be different | 16:01 |
| RST38h | glass: talking about us | 16:01 |
| SpeedEvil | University of Mass Destruction? | 16:01 |
| derf | SpeedEvil: Or Maryland. They're equivalent. | 16:01 |
| glass | academia is nothing but politics | 16:02 |
| derf | RST38h: What glass said. | 16:02 |
| glass | "hey let's make a c++ interpreter since c++ seems confusing due to having to compile it" | 16:02 |
| RST38h | derf: Not talking about small companies, mainly comparing to huge corporations | 16:02 |
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| derf | I went back into industry to _avoid_ the politics of academia. | 16:02 |
| SpeedEvil | It should be about two ends of a log! | 16:02 |
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| glass | in academia the bad politics don't cause a bankrupcy either | 16:03 |
| RST38h | derf: I knew people who left industry because of the politics | 16:03 |
| glass | so they stay | 16:03 |
| RST38h | glass: not always | 16:03 |
| RST38h | glass: also, there isn't much you can do to bankrupt Lokheed or IBM either | 16:03 |
| derf | RST38h: In academia, you've got thousands of people scrabbling for a few dozen tenure positions opening up across the country. | 16:03 |
| RST38h | glass: they are states within a state | 16:03 |
| glass | RST38h: they're not doing shit business either since it shows on the bottom line sooner or later | 16:04 |
| RST38h | derf: true | 16:04 |
| derf | People are willing to work for less than unemployment benefits as postdocs. | 16:04 |
| glass | RST38h: well you know why i have zero interest going to work inside nokia? | 16:04 |
| derf | Just to hope to get a tenure-track position. | 16:04 |
| RST38h | glass: Same reason why I would not go to IB<? =) | 16:04 |
| RST38h | IBM | 16:04 |
| glass | probably | 16:04 |
| RST38h | derf: Postdocs do not get guaranteed tenure trackpositions | 16:04 |
| glass | anyways, one doesn't need funding to do cs anyways, besides welfare | 16:04 |
| derf | And once they do, they will teach all the shit classes, scramble desparately to publish, and do "service", i.e., all the crap needed to run the department that the tenured professors don't want to do. | 16:05 |
| derf | RST38h: Hence "hope". | 16:05 |
| RST38h | derf: In fact, universities rarely upgrade postdocs to associate professors | 16:05 |
| RST38h | derf: So there is no t much ope there | 16:05 |
| derf | RST38h: No, you do a postdoc somewhere good in the hope of getting a tenure-track position somewhere else. | 16:05 |
| RST38h | derf: Doing laid back work you like for a coupe of years is a sufficient reason to become a postdoc though | 16:05 |
| adeus | cd .. | 16:05 |
| adeus | dir | 16:05 |
| adeus | argh | 16:05 |
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| RST38h | derf: SOmewhere else - yes. Same place - no | 16:06 |
| glass_ | in the long run a cushy do nothing academia job is just a way to become a human wreck though | 16:06 |
| derf | Because there are hundreds of people competing for every tenure-track position, too. | 16:06 |
| * glass_ has drank too much with academia do nothings.. | 16:06 | |
| Macer | tenure heh | 16:06 |
| derf | If you "only" have 4 or 5 years experience as a grad student, you hae no hope... | 16:06 |
| Macer | the nirvana of the education path of employment | 16:06 |
| derf | I mean, it's great for the winners. | 16:07 |
| RST38h | derf: I seen people without postdoc experience get positions | 16:07 |
| derf | But a) there aren't many winners and b) they aren't chosen by merit. | 16:07 |
| RST38h | derf: Every place is good for the winners | 16:07 |
| Macer | RST38h: i never met someone with tenure that didn't have a phd | 16:07 |
| RST38h | derf: Isn't this why they are called winners? | 16:07 |
| glass_ | hehe, depends on the viewpoint | 16:07 |
| RST38h | Macer: After 4-5 years as grad student and defending dissertation you become a phd | 16:07 |
| RST38h | Macer: postdoc is AFTER phd | 16:08 |
| Macer | oh is it? | 16:08 |
| derf | Yes. | 16:08 |
| Macer | wow. :) | 16:08 |
| derf | Hence "post" and "doc". | 16:08 |
| derf | For "after doctorate". | 16:08 |
| Macer | hahaha | 16:08 |
| Macer | well then. i guess RST38h is right :) | 16:08 |
| RST38h | derf: Either way, academia has got its share of ugly, but it is far from hell you describe :) | 16:08 |
| Macer | doesn't matter | 16:08 |
| Macer | in the end all that matters is money | 16:08 |
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| glass | money and having fun | 16:09 |
| RST38h | derf: At least in engineering departments, I understand that humanities are way different | 16:09 |
| Macer | glass: not really. best times are doing nothing ;) | 16:09 |
| * RST38h shudders just thinking what political science department loks like on the inside | 16:09 | |
| Macer | waking up and having absolutely nothing to do is nice | 16:09 |
| derf | RST38h: I'm not saying it's "hell"... it's just the game is rigged, and I can see it from here. | 16:09 |
| glass | Macer: take it from me, that's not fun in the long haul :D | 16:09 |
| derf | And I don't like playing rigged games. | 16:09 |
| RST38h | derf: Every game is rigged | 16:09 |
| RST38h | derf: Life is a rigged game. | 16:10 |
| Macer | glass: :) oh i'm not saying not to have fun | 16:10 |
| Macer | but the sweet deep breath of freedom is nice | 16:10 |
| Macer | true freedom is money | 16:10 |
| derf | RST38h: Sure. Maybe I don't like playing rigged games that pay $35k/year. | 16:10 |
| RST38h | Macer: especially when somebody else is paying your bills | 16:10 |
| Macer | RST38h: er. i pay my own ;) | 16:10 |
| Macer | actually | 16:10 |
| RST38h | derf: CS academia pays more than that | 16:10 |
| Macer | you're right | 16:10 |
| glass | Macer: my plan b) of life got fucked when i got stuck with pancreas not fit for drinking anymore so when i'm bored now i'm reeeeeaally bored | 16:10 |
| Macer | i have them autopaid haha | 16:10 |
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| derf | RST38h: Not for postdocs. | 16:10 |
| RST38h | derf: for postdocs too | 16:10 |
| Macer | glass: liquor sucks anyways | 16:10 |
| RST38h | derf: (and yes, I know) | 16:11 |
| glass | Macer: and finland sucks for everything else | 16:11 |
| derf | I saw the job advertisements get passed around every week. | 16:11 |
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| Macer | glass: move ;) | 16:11 |
| Macer | money lets you do that | 16:11 |
| Macer | haha | 16:11 |
| glass | yeh i should | 16:11 |
| Macer | i never understood people's quest for power when they have money | 16:11 |
| Macer | i'd rather just have my time to myself ;) | 16:11 |
| glass | i like socialising to some degree | 16:12 |
| glass | hence i'm on irc anyhow | 16:12 |
| glass | i used to think i'd be happy with just a computer that had nethack installed | 16:13 |
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| glass | anyways, in finland, if you really want to do just nothing and have all the time, theres no need to whore in the academy | 16:13 |
| glass | you're not going to go without an apartment or die from lack of food anyhow | 16:14 |
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| glass | plenty of my highschool friends have done practically nothing since then | 16:14 |
| RST38h | Ehehe | 16:14 |
| RST38h | glass: Apparently, you can do the same in US | 16:14 |
| glass | yeah it's not a problem when there is no famine or such | 16:15 |
| RST38h | glass: Keywords are "learning disability" and "chronic fatigue syndrome" | 16:15 |
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| vesa | ooh, fremantle vmware image | 16:22 |
| Stskeeps | hmm? | 16:22 |
| keesj | like an emulator? | 16:22 |
| aol_ | vesa: where ? | 16:23 |
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| Macer | rootkit.org | 16:25 |
| Macer | heh | 16:25 |
| vesa | sheeet. it's virtual pc, not vmware... | 16:25 |
| vesa | garage.maemo.org... will have to check if there's a vmware image available yet | 16:25 |
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| Macer | or vbox? | 16:26 |
| javispedro | afternoon | 16:26 |
| * javispedro runs out of popcorn while watching -devels /opt thread | 16:27 | |
| * Stskeeps refills | 16:27 | |
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| * javispedro thanks and continues watching | 16:29 | |
| X-Fade | javispedro: Just karma collecting, that's all ;) | 16:29 |
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| * Jaffa wants a unionfs. And he wants it now. | 16:31 | |
| * Jaffa ponders cracking open scratchbox tonight | 16:31 | |
| Stskeeps | aufs | 16:31 |
| Stskeeps | not unionfs | 16:31 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 16:31 |
| * RST38h hands Jaffa a unionfs on a stick | 16:31 | |
| SpeedEvil | I want a nice union FS. | 16:31 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: OK, I meant "I want a union FS" | 16:31 |
| RST38h | Nobody wants reiserfs any more? Thought so. | 16:31 |
| Jaffa | Not "I want unionfs" | 16:32 |
| SpeedEvil | With a two-level effect, and a stream running down the middle. | 16:32 |
| SpeedEvil | Also support for disparate speeds and RAID. | 16:32 |
| SpeedEvil | My ideal one would let me RAID my SD card, a small ramdrive for the journal, and my HD. | 16:32 |
| vesa | umm, so nobody knows if there's a vmware image for maemo5 yet? | 16:33 |
| javispedro | RST38h: reiser4 did compression on the fly. I was seriously considering it yesterday for my new /opt emmc partition... | 16:33 |
| * mgedmin stopped wanting for a union fs a long time ago, having lost all hope | 16:33 | |
| keesj | apparently this is the right kind of problems to post on the list(problems that are impossible to solve) | 16:33 |
| Jaffa | mgedmin: Around /opt? | 16:33 |
| derf | I was about to say, "I would kill for an fs that did compression on the fly," but then I realized how that would sound. | 16:33 |
| mgedmin | Jaffa: nah, I actually think I don't mind symlink trees | 16:34 |
| RST38h | javis: gzip *.sfc =) | 16:34 |
| Macer | javispedro: wow | 16:34 |
| RST38h | gzip *.smc too | 16:34 |
| * javispedro proposes another solution: reviving UMSDOS | 16:34 | |
| SpeedEvil | derf: consider reiserfs then | 16:34 |
| mgedmin | NO ZOMBIES PLEASE, javispedro | 16:34 |
| Macer | people still use reiser? | 16:34 |
| derf | SpeedEvil: I don't use experimental filesystems. | 16:34 |
| Jaffa | mgedmin: Do you not think it just smells icky? | 16:34 |
| Stskeeps | yay umsdos | 16:34 |
| SpeedEvil | derf: I mean - if you like killing. | 16:34 |
| Macer | why not zfs? ;) | 16:34 |
| derf | SpeedEvil: Oh, okay. | 16:34 |
| vesa | aol_: seems that vmware player atleast has virtual pc listed as supported formats. | 16:34 |
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| vesa | aol_: i'll let you know if the image works in about 20 mins... slooow download | 16:35 |
| derf | But the only thing I actually liked about NTFS was the built-in compression. | 16:35 |
| SpeedEvil | Has anyone benchmarked x86 emulators? | 16:35 |
| Macer | compression = slowdown | 16:35 |
| X-Fade | If only filesystem compression could be offloaded to some hardware ;) | 16:35 |
| * mgedmin waits for inz to repeat his "multi-target development with scratchbox" post with freemantle included | 16:35 | |
| derf | I don't understand how it can be more than a decade later, and we still don't have that in Linux. | 16:35 |
| SpeedEvil | derf: well - ... | 16:35 |
| SpeedEvil | derf: what percent of the average users files are compressed? | 16:35 |
| * X-Fade slaps mgedmin | 16:35 | |
| SpeedEvil | Compression != slowdown. | 16:35 |
| mgedmin | ouch | 16:35 |
| derf | The average _Linux_ user? | 16:35 |
| SpeedEvil | Or you're doing it wrong. | 16:36 |
| mgedmin | compression sucks anyway | 16:36 |
| SpeedEvil | Compression = speedup | 16:36 |
| mgedmin | it doesn't do anything for all my multi-gigabyte mp3ses and videos | 16:36 |
| Macer | SpeedEvil: uhm | 16:36 |
| glass_ | hmmm... what were those dos tools called again, diskstacker? | 16:36 |
| vesa | aol_: google for 'maemo5 vpc image' returns a thread with the garage.maemo.org link in it if you're interested | 16:36 |
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| Macer | overhead for the on the fly compression would eat cycles | 16:36 |
| mgedmin | all it does it lies about how much disk space you actually have | 16:36 |
| mgedmin | anyway, jffs2 _is_ compressed, so there | 16:36 |
| SpeedEvil | Macer: sure. If your disk is fast compared to your CPU | 16:36 |
| mgedmin | (and it does eat cycles) | 16:36 |
| SpeedEvil | Macer: if you're waiting on the disk... | 16:37 |
| Macer | and jffs2 is slow :-P | 16:37 |
| glass_ | all the big stuff on my hd's is stuff that doesn't compress well anyhow | 16:37 |
| Macer | SpeedEvil: heh. | 16:37 |
| derf | Consider also that page cache keeps the compressed pages cached. | 16:37 |
| derf | The GB's of source code on my hdd would tend to disagree. | 16:37 |
| * SpeedEvil ponders a compression scheme that searches out matching files, and substitutes them. | 16:37 | |
| SpeedEvil | A 8GB hd-dvd rip of 2001-a-space-odessy becomes a 400k compressed text tile. | 16:38 |
| derf | Hey, I have this great idea, let's make hundreds of thousands of tiny text files, and not use compression or tail-merging! | 16:38 |
| Macer | cached huh? | 16:38 |
| SpeedEvil | derf: inn got there first | 16:38 |
| RST38h | BTW, ReiserFS should be the classical case of the virtuous open source usage | 16:38 |
| Macer | SpeedEvil: hahaha | 16:39 |
| RST38h | The author is gone, the community is going to pick it up and continue development. | 16:39 |
| RST38h | Is it happening? =)~ | 16:39 |
| javispedro | RST38h, it is. | 16:39 |
| Corsac | yeah but reiserfs sucks | 16:39 |
| Macer | RST38h: virtuous? | 16:39 |
| RST38h | javis: Who is working on it? | 16:39 |
| Macer | haha | 16:39 |
| javispedro | there are still talks about merging it will mainline | 16:39 |
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| javispedro | s/will/with | 16:39 |
| derf | RST38h: Who was working on it _before_ he was gone? | 16:39 |
| RST38h | Macer: Well you know how OSS advocates always saying that OSS is to preserve the code | 16:39 |
| glass_ | haha point | 16:39 |
| RST38h | derf: Reiser, I guess | 16:39 |
| SpeedEvil | Plus - how many filesystems authors can you make an appointment to go and see - and they'll probably see you. | 16:40 |
| Stskeeps | hah | 16:40 |
| muep_ | free software preserves useful code | 16:40 |
| derf | RST38h: He seemed to be more interested in getting in flamewars on lkml. | 16:40 |
| glass_ | haha | 16:40 |
| Macer | RST38h: yeah.. im sure people would love to use hitler code | 16:40 |
| RST38h | javis: But is it being developed? | 16:40 |
| glass_ | RST38h: does it need development? | 16:40 |
| RST38h | Macer: Nazi uniform design is the most widely copied, every SF flick uses it | 16:40 |
| derf | I mean, how many years did reiser4 go unmerged while he was at the helm? | 16:40 |
| RST38h | Macer: So, yes, in a sense | 16:40 |
| javispedro | RST38h: http://reiser4.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page | 16:40 |
| RST38h | glass: I have no idea really | 16:41 |
| Macer | RST38h: i was being serious ;) | 16:41 |
| RST38h | javis: thanks =) | 16:41 |
| javispedro | more like "being updated" other than developed | 16:41 |
| Macer | if hitler made an fs i would use it | 16:41 |
| RST38h | javis: it counts | 16:41 |
| RST38h | Macer: man, you have got too high opinion of the guy | 16:41 |
| RST38h | Macer: he was a wacko, period. | 16:41 |
| Macer | heh | 16:42 |
| Macer | as was reiser ;) | 16:42 |
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| lopz | hola | 16:42 |
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| RST38h | Macer: Reiser, fortunately, was a relatively harmless wacko, only offed one soul | 16:42 |
| * javispedro wants updated UMSDOS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMSDOS | 16:43 | |
| SpeedEvil | Macer: naah - Lycra is the most commonly used cloth in the future. | 16:43 |
| SpeedEvil | javispedro: with support for Stacker(r) ? | 16:43 |
| RST38h | javis: oh...looks painful | 16:43 |
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| javispedro | RST38h: that's what Apple would do. | 16:44 |
| javispedro | and since all it matters is cloning Apple, | 16:44 |
| RST38h | javis: And has. | 16:44 |
| javispedro | I welcome our new .Linux_Store overlods | 16:44 |
| RST38h | javis: Brought to us by Google! | 16:44 |
| javispedro | :) | 16:45 |
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| javispedro | actually, apple remove Mass Storage support? | 16:46 |
| RST38h | javis: /opt/google/linux_store/ | 16:46 |
| RST38h | noooooooooooo??? | 16:46 |
| RST38h | not from the desktop OSX, right? | 16:47 |
| javispedro | iphone, I mean | 16:47 |
| RST38h | Ah, iphone, yea probably | 16:48 |
| javispedro | So there you have what Apple "would do" :) | 16:48 |
| RST38h | If it ever was there of course: as I understand the ARM version of Darwin isn't the same as x86 version | 16:48 |
| javispedro | I am talking about gadget mass storage support | 16:49 |
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| javispedro | did x86 Darwin ever contain gadget mass storage support? | 16:49 |
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| RST38h | javis: you mean, not umass "client" but umass "server"? I do not think so | 16:51 |
| javispedro | yeah, server. | 16:51 |
| javispedro | Since they're also a many GiB device, the device OS having "special" filesystem requirements, and the device maker's marketing team having "windows" requeriments. | 16:53 |
| javispedro | same situation I think :) | 16:53 |
| RST38h | no, since they no use for the "server" | 16:53 |
| RST38h | There are basically two different types of mass storage devices | 16:53 |
| RST38h | One is umass, using simplified SCSI command set over USB (two types known) | 16:54 |
| javispedro | the only one I know. | 16:54 |
| RST38h | Second is MS "media device" using semiproprietary protocol | 16:54 |
| javispedro | MTP. | 16:54 |
| RST38h | A lot of PMPs expose themselves as MTP | 16:54 |
| RST38h | Some will fall back to umass as well | 16:54 |
| javispedro | but MTP sucks, Windows does not handle it through the IFS layer but through the SHELL layer. | 16:54 |
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| RST38h | MTP definitely sucks, th eproblem is that a lot of PMPs are ONLY MTP nowadays | 16:55 |
| javispedro | because users don't care, and nokia marketing team is wrong here. | 16:55 |
| javispedro | users care about iTunes/WMP sending songs | 16:55 |
| RST38h | I do not care about itunes | 16:56 |
| javispedro | and they'll use an extra usb pendrive for "documents", even if their beloved ipod has a 16GiB drive | 16:56 |
| RST38h | I do not care about ipod by extension | 16:56 |
| javispedro | Me neither RST, but we're not normal users. | 16:56 |
| RST38h | I would clam myself to be a normal user | 16:57 |
| RST38h | claim | 16:57 |
| javispedro | Well, I don't. People still glaze at me when I plug my N810 to a computer instead of a pendrive. | 16:57 |
| RST38h | I have got some data of my own, would like to store and view it. What is Abnormal about this? Is it geekish or what? | 16:57 |
| javispedro | RST38h: "normal people" don't treat a gadget as a pendrive unless it has a pendrive shape. | 16:59 |
| mgedmin | actually, doesn't MTP have the advantage that both the device and the PC can access the filesystem at the same time? | 16:59 |
| RST38h | It stores stuff. Hence it is storage. | 16:59 |
| javispedro | that's the reason some manufacturers here made mp3 players pendrive-shaped. | 16:59 |
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| javispedro | mgedmin: true. | 16:59 |
| javispedro | but windows support for it sucks | 16:59 |
| RST38h | javis: I thought it was to use them as tampons? | 17:00 |
| javispedro | :) | 17:00 |
| SamPieter | hello nice people of #maemo | 17:00 |
| zerojay | Hi. | 17:00 |
| javispedro | mgedmin: actually tho, I've not read the spec, so I don't know if the protocol itself has stoopid limitations or not. | 17:01 |
| javispedro | it is a USB Spec now so I'd guess it doesn't. | 17:01 |
| mgedmin | linux support for MTP also sucks | 17:02 |
| mgedmin | I know very little about the protocol actually | 17:02 |
| javispedro | mgedmin: but fusemtp would be trivial I hope. | 17:02 |
| * mgedmin prefers sshfs | 17:02 | |
| javispedro | on windows, it's handled throught the shell layer, which means mtp devices are exposed like your average Nokia phone. | 17:02 |
| javispedro | in a very simplified way, "as user space extensions to explorer.exe" | 17:03 |
| javispedro | which means: no running apps from mtp. | 17:03 |
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| javispedro | for linux heads, it would be like doing a gnomevfs2 plugin instead of a proper filesystem/fuse. | 17:03 |
| javispedro | so you get that some apps work, some don't read from there, no exec, no swap, etc. | 17:04 |
| SamPieter | I'd like to have my scrollbars on the left side. | 17:04 |
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| RST38h | short translation: MTP sucks | 17:04 |
| SamPieter | found a how-to for it, and it works | 17:04 |
| mgedmin | SamPieter: check :h 'guioptions' | 17:04 |
| SamPieter | BUT, it does not work for my browser | 17:04 |
| javispedro | RST38h: if the protocol is sane, I don't see why a better implementation couldn't be made. | 17:04 |
| mgedmin | your ... browser? | 17:04 |
| mgedmin | what browser is that? | 17:04 |
| mgedmin | aaaaa I'm not in #vim | 17:04 |
| SamPieter | ehm, the one shipped with my N810 | 17:05 |
| RST38h | javis: it would be by now | 17:05 |
| * mgedmin wants his brain BACK from whoever took it | 17:05 | |
| * javispedro doesn't have vista son can't talk if the situation is any better there | 17:05 | |
| javispedro | s/son/so | 17:05 |
| RST38h | mgedmin: If it is the Tentacled One, you will have to inspect His droppings for that | 17:05 |
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| SamPieter | I think it's mozilla | 17:07 |
| SamPieter | I tried to change the config file, using about:config | 17:07 |
| SamPieter | but that does not work.. the scrollbar stays at the right side | 17:07 |
| * RST38h got 32bit IP in 16bit x86 mode. This cannot be right. | 17:08 | |
| timeless_mbp | SamPieter: um | 17:08 |
| javispedro | SamPieter, I think you asked than once here.... did you search talk.maemo.org already? | 17:08 |
| timeless_mbp | so... | 17:08 |
| timeless_mbp | it's possible to do, as i've done it | 17:08 |
| timeless_mbp | you can't do it from about:Config | 17:08 |
| timeless_mbp | and i don't know how to do it, i've just sorta accidentally done it :) | 17:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=154495 | 17:09 |
| timeless_mbp | hrm | 17:10 |
| GeneralAntilles | First Google result, may or may not be useful or relevant. | 17:10 |
| timeless_mbp | hrm, layout.scrollbar.side = 3 seems to work in camino | 17:11 |
| timeless_mbp | wow | 17:11 |
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| javispedro | another satisfied customer :) | 17:14 |
| zerojay | :) | 17:14 |
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| SamPieter | Whoopd | 17:15 |
| timeless_mbp | GeneralAntilles: wow, it works | 17:15 |
| SamPieter | javispedro, i might have asked this a few days earlier, but when I asked the question my internet connection went boom | 17:15 |
| javispedro | SamPieter: just like today I guess. did you read GeneralAntilles answer? | 17:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless_mbp, who'da thunk it. | 17:16 |
| * GeneralAntilles needs an SSD. | 17:17 | |
| javispedro | oh | 17:17 |
| javispedro | 2.6.31 contains an equivalent of FUSE for character devices that | 17:18 |
| javispedro | ...that can be used for proxying OSS sound through ALSA. | 17:18 |
| RST38h | given that alsa works of course | 17:18 |
| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: Thanks for the tip on localizing date and time | 17:19 |
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| fiferboy | I even managed to determine if the system is using 12h or 24h time | 17:19 |
| javispedro | I may actually upgrade to that one... | 17:19 |
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| SamPieter | ehm no, javispedro... that wasn't me :) and no, I didn't read GeneralAntilles' answer... Can you copy/paste it? | 17:21 |
| javispedro | RST38h: now, the funny thing would be for the OSS API to be standarized *again* | 17:21 |
| javispedro | and PulseAudio implementing /dev/dsp | 17:21 |
| javispedro | all transparently. | 17:21 |
| RST38h | javis: it has been standardized already, by netbsd | 17:21 |
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| RST38h | javis: /dev/pcm | 17:22 |
| ShadowJK | btw the OSS author implemented OSS API with alsa backend ;-) | 17:22 |
| javispedro | because I can see devs going to use /dev/dsp if pulseaudio implements it, not having to learn yet another audio api | 17:22 |
| ShadowJK | esd is dead easy, but the lack of audio delay information is a killer | 17:23 |
| ShadowJK | pulseaudio provides it, but it often gets lost or castrated in the alsa->pulseuadio->app chain due to bugs in all the steps throughout :P | 17:23 |
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| RST38h | javis: I would simply standardize on BSD /dev/pcm, it is a cleaned up version of OSS API | 17:24 |
| javispedro | RST38h I never read about /dev/pcm | 17:24 |
| javispedro | I just know Linux's OSS and OSSv4 | 17:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Curacao-N810 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=154495 | 17:24 |
| ShadowJK | RST38h, I like sun audio :-) | 17:24 |
| ShadowJK | NetBSD has it | 17:24 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: Yea, sun audio is a subset of dev/pcm | 17:24 |
| ShadowJK | clean, usable, simple | 17:25 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: It is somewhat lacking though, just a littl ebit | 17:25 |
| javispedro | ln -s /dev/null /dev/pcm | 17:25 |
| javispedro | lol. google always showing *best* solutions as first results. :) | 17:25 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: On the other hand, I have not looked at changes since SunOS 4.1, so not sure if it is still the same | 17:25 |
| ShadowJK | Well, personally I just want accurate buffer state reporting | 17:26 |
| RST38h | javis: They figured out mind-reading and are working on mind-control | 17:26 |
| ShadowJK | for stutterfree video playback with audio sync :P | 17:26 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: Should not be difficult to add, a single ioctl | 17:26 |
| javispedro | ShadowJK, isn't tthe pulseaudio guy trying to get that from ALSA? | 17:27 |
| ShadowJK | it exists already in netbsd's sunaudio implementation | 17:27 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: Ah, ok | 17:27 |
| ShadowJK | javispedro, by the time it goes through alsa filters and through pulseuaudio it's often unusable | 17:27 |
| ShadowJK | Atleast on all of my computers | 17:28 |
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| ShadowJK | The thing about audio and video is that the sound chip is going to play back at whatever the hell speed it pleases. It doesn't give a rat's ass about YOUR perception of time | 17:29 |
| RST38h | actually hw dma is monotonous | 17:30 |
| RST38h | it is the software layer | 17:30 |
| ShadowJK | no it's not that | 17:30 |
| ShadowJK | that's not the issue | 17:31 |
| ShadowJK | The issue is that the sound clock runs at different speed from the system clock, and the video clock | 17:31 |
| ShadowJK | When you've got more than one clock, you never know what time it is | 17:31 |
| Curacao-N810 | GeneralAntilles: thank you for the link. That's exactly the one I used! Editing the gtkrc file was no problem, once I installed nano. But when I went into the about:config file, and edited this: layout.scrollbar.side=3 nothing happened to the browser's scrollbar location. Any thoughts? | 17:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | Restart? | 17:31 |
| Curacao-N810 | heh - Did that | 17:32 |
| ShadowJK | Unless you want to play tear-free 60fps video on a 60Hz screen, you can mostly ignore the video clock, that simplifies things alot, and will save you lots of CPU cycles. Then, you only have to figure out how fast the sound clock thinks "44100hz" (or whatever) is. It will not be 44100Hz as measured by the system clock, because the two clocks are not accurate enough. | 17:33 |
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| ShadowJK | Now, if you want tearfree 60fps video on 60Hz display... Then you're at the mercy of the video clock, and need to figure out how fast the audio is playing, and resample it on the fly to compensate. You get to choose between heavy CPU or crap sound quality there :) | 17:35 |
| fiferboy | Curacao-N810: There is some strange procedure to get it to take affect, like entering it twice in a row | 17:35 |
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| RST38h | ShadowJK: Sounds like fun =) | 17:36 |
| Curacao-N810 | fiferboy, let me try it | 17:36 |
| fiferboy | http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=21905 | 17:36 |
| fiferboy | Curacao-N810: It says to change your value, press ENTER, then press 'Set Preference' | 17:36 |
| ShadowJK | RST38h, yeah so if you can't get accurate information from the soundchip you just have to make shit up and hope there's atleast some lip sync left. | 17:37 |
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| Stskeeps | oh dear god, my inbox is full of /opt :( | 17:39 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: Use silence periods to synchronize :) | 17:39 |
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| RST38h | Sts: That is why I have a rule in GMail that directs all maemo-devs traffic straight into Trash =) | 17:40 |
| RST38h | Sts: And I can expect it there at my leisure =) | 17:40 |
| Curacao-N810 | fiferboy to the rescue!! it worked! | 17:40 |
| fiferboy | Curacao-N810: Good to hear | 17:40 |
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| * javispedro imagines a not-so-far future where every Maemo packaging has a call to a "stub" maemo-optify for "legacy" reasons, Maemo 6 using unionfs since the very first days. | 17:42 | |
| Stskeeps | maemo 6 will get it's data from the ether | 17:42 |
| javispedro | yeah. Developers will be obsolete. | 17:43 |
| javispedro | :) | 17:43 |
| javispedro | Apple is already on the way. I can see them automating the release of iFart apps. | 17:43 |
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| RST38h | Maemo6 will come with a vial of ether that you will be supposed to sniff to unlock the device | 17:44 |
| RST38h | It is necessary to enable the 3D display effect | 17:44 |
| javispedro | and to use the device at all. Without sniffing -> no device. | 17:45 |
| ShadowJK | Speaking of video, ffmpeg has found a hardware bug in Cortex A8 :P | 17:45 |
| RST38h | What bug? Is it in ARM implementation or in TI adaptation of the above? | 17:45 |
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| ShadowJK | probably arm | 17:46 |
| RST38h | Anything we need to be aware about? | 17:46 |
| RST38h | URL? | 17:46 |
| ShadowJK | dunno | 17:46 |
| ShadowJK | apparently fixed in later versions of a8 | 17:46 |
| ShadowJK | irc://...blah I don't understand the syntax :P | 17:46 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Like, is this the old NEON bug from ES2 OMAP3? | 17:46 |
| ShadowJK | Not sure :) | 17:47 |
| ShadowJK | It was just mentioned in passing after the same guy discovered a bug in AVR (which they confirmed) | 17:48 |
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| Curacao-N810 | Thanks again for the help ppl. Bye for now | 17:49 |
| mfinkle | timeless_mbp: is there a guide somewhere with the volume button rules? | 17:49 |
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| javispedro | oh, just found this http://hardwarebug.org/2009/08/05/arm-compiler-shoot-out/#more-150 | 17:50 |
| RST38h | well no news | 17:52 |
| RST38h | RVCT is developed by ARM and thus leads the pack | 17:52 |
| RST38h | it is also the only compiler that uses native 64bit integer implementation | 17:53 |
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| javispedro | would guess so. | 17:54 |
| RST38h | Fremantle uses 2007q3, right? | 17:54 |
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| javispedro | yes | 17:55 |
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| javispedro | which, in my drnoksnes test, generates 3-4 fps slower code than 2005 | 17:55 |
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| RST38h | heh | 17:56 |
| RST38h | time to go 2009q1? | 17:56 |
| javispedro | here be dragons | 17:56 |
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| javispedro | I am also considering ditching the written-in-ASM CPU interpreter... | 17:58 |
| RST38h | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/10/dracula_caged/ | 17:59 |
| javispedro | well, gotta go | 17:59 |
| RST38h | javis: Do not | 17:59 |
| RST38h | javis: it saves you 30-60% cpu time | 17:59 |
| RST38h | (if written properly that is) | 17:59 |
| javispedro | which I don't know. | 17:59 |
| RST38h | check | 17:59 |
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| RST38h | correctly written code will try avoiding memory accesses at any cost | 18:00 |
| RST38h | will keep the whole 65816 state in registers | 18:00 |
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| javispedro | it wins me only a few fps, and the C one is much more hackable | 18:00 |
| RST38h | why would you need to hack cpu core? | 18:01 |
| RST38h | Once it works you let it be | 18:01 |
| javispedro | sa-1 | 18:01 |
| javispedro | a few macros and the C interpreter is already emulating the SA-1 | 18:01 |
| javispedro | here by dragons If I try that in the asm interpreter. | 18:02 |
| RST38h | heh | 18:02 |
| javispedro | well, really gotta go. bye | 18:03 |
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| kirma | helsinki folks, come here to open thursday grrr | 18:12 |
| kirma | free thursday even :) | 18:12 |
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| m-vo | kirma, where is it? | 18:14 |
| suihkulokki | m-vo: rotterdam | 18:14 |
| m-vo | Ok, thanks! | 18:15 |
| suihkulokki | m-vo: if at office, come to my office, I'll leave soon | 18:15 |
| * m-vo imagines how odd this looks: come to free thursday in helsinki! where is it? rotterdam! :-) | 18:16 | |
| suihkulokki | hehe | 18:16 |
| m-vo | Hmm, don't wait for me. | 18:16 |
| * RST38h takes American point of view that it is all in one spot called Europe | 18:16 | |
| m-vo | Not sure yet. | 18:16 |
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| * Jaffa is now in rant mode on /opt; sorry m-vo ;-) | 18:19 | |
| * m-vo is a bit worried about eMMC performance now, after seeing some real world effects of maemo-optify-deb... :-( | 18:19 | |
| RST38h | the optify thing is totally unnecessary | 18:20 |
| Jaffa | m-vo: The last thing needed is more performance problems :( | 18:20 |
| m-vo | Jaffa, yeah. | 18:20 |
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| * Jaffa wonders if m-vo is willing to say publicly how only 100MB rootfs space got so far through the development process without being considered an *enormous* problem... | 18:21 | |
| kirma | m-vo: rotterdam in kamppi | 18:21 |
| m-vo | But that's quite fundamental: no matter how we get the files on the eMMC, optify, --prefix=/opt, hacking dpkg, they will always be on the eMMC. | 18:22 |
| m-vo | Jaffa, I don't know. | 18:22 |
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| m-vo | Could be that many people here don't take third party apps very seriously. | 18:23 |
| Jaffa | Given a) the success of them on other platforms and b) they're the thing which make Maemo viable; that's potentially worrysome | 18:23 |
| m-vo | Yeah. | 18:23 |
| m-vo | There is a lot of pressure to keep our OS small, always with the argument that we need space for 3rd party apps. | 18:24 |
| RST38h | m-vo: Why not let packagers manually determine which files will be on eMMC and which will not? | 18:24 |
| SpeedEvil | m-vo: by performance you mean terrible write speeds on fragmented? | 18:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | A lot of the preconceptions and ideas people in Nokia seem to have about the platform are worrisome. | 18:24 |
| m-vo | But even if our OS would only be 10 kiB, you would only have 250 MiB for 3rd party apss. | 18:24 |
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| RST38h | Is the Samsung chip 256MB RAM + 256MB ROM? | 18:25 |
| * RST38h thought it was 512MB ROM | 18:25 | |
| m-vo | 256 MB ROM. | 18:25 |
| Jaffa | m-vo: And given Qt's likely to be installed on many Maemo 5 devices... | 18:25 |
| RST38h | Qt is +5MB | 18:26 |
| RST38h | With WebKit it probably becomes another +5MB | 18:26 |
| ShadowJK | nand | 18:26 |
| m-vo | RST38h, we do that, don't we? | 18:27 |
| m-vo | RST38h, well, maemo-optify isn't exactly configurable at this point, but that can be fixed. | 18:27 |
| RST38h | m-vo: I really think optify shoud at least be made optional | 18:27 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: Current plan is still that it is | 18:28 |
| m-vo | RST38h, it is. | 18:28 |
| RST38h | m-vo: Because if you are doing this manually, it is really easy to decide what to place to / and what not | 18:28 |
| RST38h | Cool | 18:28 |
| m-vo | RST38h, it is "opt-in", hehe. | 18:28 |
| RST38h | m-vo: I.e. binary and libraries go directly to / but data goes to opt/maemo/share | 18:28 |
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| RST38h | m-vo: Then the problem will be monimized | 18:28 |
| RST38h | minimized | 18:28 |
| m-vo | SpeedEvil, no, application startup time. | 18:29 |
| m-vo | So, mmap. | 18:29 |
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| SpeedEvil | m-vo: the internal RAM is xip? | 18:30 |
| SpeedEvil | ROM | 18:30 |
| suihkulokki | m-vo, kirma leaving now =) | 18:31 |
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| m-vo | Ok! I'll probably not coming, though... | 18:31 |
| m-vo | "I am". | 18:31 |
| ShadowJK | SpeedEvil, I am pretty sure it's nand and not nor with xip ability | 18:32 |
| suihkulokki | :( | 18:32 |
| m-vo | ShadowJK, correct. | 18:32 |
| m-vo | It just seems to be faster, or better connected. | 18:32 |
| RST38h | Speed: It is all NAND | 18:32 |
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| RST38h | no NOR there | 18:32 |
| SpeedEvil | I was confused why startup time might be an issue - unless it's simply raw speed | 18:33 |
| * RST38h also thought it was NOR but was disappointed | 18:33 | |
| RST38h | Ok, walk time | 18:33 |
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| ShadowJK | m-vo, SD/MMC command overhead is allegedly monstrous. The OneNAND or whatever is probably better in that regard, plus with jffs2 keeping the directory structure and all the metadata in RAM unevictably, and the data itself being compressed... | 18:33 |
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| ShadowJK | On another emmc related topic, alot of youtube videos of N900 seems to have stuttering flash, worse than on N810, which is pretty curious. Anecdotal reports from people going to Nokia flagship stores seems to be that they encounter this too but that it goes away with reboot. I bet "cat /proc/swaps" and "vmstat 10" would be enlightening and put the blame on swap-on-emmc :) | 18:35 |
| m-vo | ShadowJK, it's ubifs now, not jffs2. | 18:35 |
| ShadowJK | Oh :) | 18:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | Thank goodness | 18:35 |
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| ShadowJK | Frankly I didn't expect Nokia, despite creating it, to adopt it so fast ;p | 18:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | Although we didn't get a capacity boost to take advantage of UBIFS, unfortunately. | 18:36 |
| m-vo | ubifs is nice, but be ready to put fsyncs in places that have never seen them before... | 18:37 |
| ShadowJK | Are you saying "don't expect posix behaviour" or are you saying "don't expect ext3 behaviour"? :P | 18:37 |
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| m-vo | ShadowJK, "don't expect ext3 behavior, expect ext4 behavior" | 18:38 |
| frals | god i want it to be mid-october already so i can play with the damn thing :< | 18:38 |
| * m-vo uses it as his only phone... :-P | 18:39 | |
| m-vo | really cool, totally excited about it. | 18:39 |
| frals | ... bastard! ;) | 18:39 |
| ShadowJK | m-vo, ah, well, that's okay then :) | 18:39 |
| frals | im glad i held off upgrading my n95 to a n97.. had it been on sale when i was in the helsinki flagship store i probably wouldve left with one thou :P | 18:40 |
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| m-vo | ShadowJK, well there are tons of discussions and I think ext4 will put a write-barrier into rename, or something, because people complained too much. | 18:40 |
| ShadowJK | Yeah, I think btrfs is doing that too | 18:40 |
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| m-vo | Maybe ubifs should, too. | 18:41 |
| ShadowJK | Basically people expect rename on top of existing file to result in either the old file or the new file being on disk intact | 18:41 |
| m-vo | We hd to put a big ugly "sync" into dpkg. (Not fsync, sync.) | 18:41 |
| ShadowJK | huh, isn't that close to a proper "bug" in the fs then? | 18:41 |
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| m-vo | ShadowJK, I would say it's a bug in POSIX or Unix. | 18:49 |
| m-vo | What you want is a barrier that includes all file operations done by your child processes, but POSIX doesn't have that. | 18:50 |
| m-vo | It only has a barrier that includes everyone. | 18:51 |
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| mgedmin | the /opt thread is looooong... | 18:52 |
| mgedmin | what's ubifs? | 18:54 |
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| rm_you | wheee porting to maemo 5. funtimes. | 18:57 |
| ShadowJK | mgedmin, jffs2 without the suck | 18:57 |
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| rm_you | johnx: lol, my google search for some random code thingy just turned up one of your source trees on launchpad :P | 18:58 |
| * lbt wonders why union FS is sane to consider but /usr_root isn't | 18:58 | |
| lbt | since union FS is likely to be complex | 18:59 |
| ShadowJK | To me /usr/local sounds saner than moving /usr to /usr_root | 18:59 |
| lbt | and /usr_root puts all core libraries onto the OneNAND (?) which is fast | 18:59 |
| rm_you | is there a page somewhere that literally just has a list of libraries that have namechanged/deprecated between maemo4/maemo5? I figured it'd be in the "porting apps from maemo4 to maemo5" wiki area, but not-so-much >_< | 19:00 |
| StOrM_NW | what i have to do to replace the standard maemo bluetooth pairing ... i already create the dbus agent using python ... but when i try to register the agent ... it says AlreadyRegister | 19:00 |
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| GeneralAntilles | rm_you, yes, it's on maemo.org somewhere | 19:00 |
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| StOrM_NW | anyway to get the path of the actual agent ... considering that the Unregister method requires the path of the last agent register | 19:00 |
| lbt | and even allows special case 3rd party installs to put perf-sensitive libraries onto /usr_root | 19:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | Should be listed in one or more of the SDK announcements. | 19:00 |
| rm_you | GeneralAntilles: ridiculously helpful as always, GA :P <3 | 19:00 |
| * rm_you sighs | 19:00 | |
| lbt | m-vo ^^ | 19:00 |
| rm_you | at least i know it's there somewhere :P | 19:01 |
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| GeneralAntilles | http://maemo.org/development/sdks/maemo_5_beta_2_sdk/ | 19:02 |
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| murrayc_ | I wish we have SDK updates more often. | 19:03 |
| Stskeeps | pre-alpha, pre-alpha2, alpha, beta1, beta2, they're getting better at it :P | 19:04 |
| Stskeeps | so you ended up not being able to get HIM playing well? | 19:04 |
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| Stskeeps | it may simply be because it's running in SDK though, - i can probably find some time to try it within Mer / a real device | 19:05 |
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| rm_you | hrmrmrm | 19:06 |
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| rm_you | so none of those pages are telling me what happened to the package hildon-desktop-dev | 19:06 |
| rm_you | <_< | 19:06 |
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| Stskeeps | libhildondesktop-dev? :P | 19:07 |
| Stskeeps | status bar areas are very different now | 19:07 |
| rm_you | yeah i saw that | 19:07 |
| rm_you | gonna require a lot of GUI refactorin g | 19:07 |
| rm_you | but should come out nicer looking overall i think :) | 19:07 |
| rm_you | and actually, libhildondesktop-dev also was renamed to libhildondesktop1-dev | 19:08 |
| rm_you | but is a completely seperate library from hildon-desktop-dev in diablo at least... | 19:08 |
| rm_you | i had: | 19:08 |
| rm_you | Build-Depends: debhelper (>= 4), libhildondesktop1-dev, libhildon1-dev, libgtk2.0-dev, libgconf2-dev, libosso-dev (>= 1), hildon-desktop-dev, hildon-control-panel-dev, x11proto-randr-dev, libxrandr-dev, autoconf, automake, libtool | 19:08 |
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| rm_you | err, i already fixed the libhildondesktop1-dev | 19:09 |
| rm_you | and these packages DO show up: | 19:10 |
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| rm_you | [sbox-FREMANTLE_X86: ~/adv-backlight] > apt-cache search hildon-desktop | 19:10 |
| rm_you | hildon-desktop - Hildon desktop for Fremantle | 19:10 |
| rm_you | hildon-desktop-dbg - Debug symbols for Hildon desktop | 19:10 |
| rm_you | so what happened to hildon-desktop-dev? T_T | 19:10 |
| Stskeeps | it was never seperate, just an alternate name afaik | 19:10 |
| rm_you | <_< weird | 19:10 |
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| mgedmin | oh, planet.maemo.org, why do you have to do this obnoxious link-hijacking thing that you do? | 19:24 |
| Wooly | quick question (I'm sure I'm overlooking something really stupid): the n810 has a screen resolution of 800*480, giving 384,000 total pixels. 16 bits per pixel = 2 bytes per pixel which is 768,000KB for one screen of raw data. However, the screens that I am capturing are double that. Where is my factor of 2 difference coming from? | 19:24 |
| mgedmin | how are you capturing the screens? | 19:25 |
| lbt | SLR? | 19:25 |
| Wooly | directly from /dev/fb0 | 19:25 |
| Stskeeps | nice, sponsorship stuff came out :P | 19:25 |
| m-vo | lbt, I don't think I understand your /usr_root proposal fully, have to read it more carefully. | 19:25 |
| lbt | on / mkdir /usr_root | 19:25 |
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| mgedmin | hm, extra framebuffer memory for double-buffering? for offscreen pixmaps? | 19:26 |
| lbt | just like /usr at the moment | 19:26 |
| Wooly | mgedmin: open file, read file, close file, write contents to disk | 19:26 |
| SpeedEvil | Wooly: 8 bit R G B pixels - and a stuffing byte? | 19:26 |
| lbt | copy /usr/* to /usr_root | 19:26 |
| mgedmin | if you look at that data as a picture, what do you see? | 19:26 |
| m-vo | lbt, listening... | 19:26 |
| SpeedEvil | Wooly: just because the screen is 16 bit doesn' tmean the framebuffer RAM is | 19:26 |
| rm_you | wtf where was this coming from!? #include <libhildonwm/hd-wm.h> | 19:26 |
| m-vo | lbt when do you do the copy? | 19:26 |
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| Wooly | SpeedEvil: I suppose that's correct | 19:26 |
| SpeedEvil | Wooly: I have no idea if this is correct though | 19:27 |
| Wooly | and I thought it would be simple! :D | 19:27 |
| Wooly | mgedmin: I cannot look at the raw data as a picture, without reversing the bgra to rgba | 19:27 |
| Wooly | at which point, I see a screenshot | 19:28 |
| mgedmin | a 800x480 screenshot, or a 800x960 screenshot? | 19:28 |
| Stskeeps | rm_you: no such thing as wm/hd-wdm anymore afaik | 19:28 |
| Wooly | mgedmin: an 800x480 screenshot | 19:28 |
| rm_you | sweet, coming to the summit :P | 19:28 |
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| mgedmin | how are you looking at it then? | 19:28 |
| * rm_you does a little dance | 19:28 | |
| rm_you | hrm, alright | 19:28 |
| * m-vo is coming to the summit, too. | 19:29 | |
| m-vo | Bring your tomatoes and egss! :-) | 19:29 |
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| Stskeeps | and bacon | 19:29 |
| luke-jr | what's the point in fb having A? | 19:29 |
| m-vo | Hmm, bacon. | 19:29 |
| luke-jr | does anyone actually make a display that supports transparency yet? | 19:29 |
| luke-jr | and if they did, would X.org actually support it properly? | 19:29 |
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| mgedmin | Wooly: btw I don't get that -- cat /dev/fb0> /media/mmc2/shot gives me a file that's 770048 bytes | 19:30 |
| mgedmin | slightly more than 800*480*2, but not twice as much | 19:30 |
| Wooly | orly | 19:30 |
| rm_you | the hildon libraries were always something of a mystery to me as to their actual organization and such, i just was always happy when I got the right ones included :P | 19:30 |
| Wooly | mgedmin: I may have overlooked something so blindingly obvious it's unreal | 19:31 |
| mgedmin | interesting size anyway | 19:31 |
| Wooly | mgedmin: indeed! | 19:31 |
| mgedmin | doesn't divide by 1600 cleanly | 19:31 |
| luke-jr | why would it? | 19:31 |
| mgedmin | good point | 19:31 |
| Stskeeps | rm_you: i think not many people know anymore, hence why they're moving for qt :P | 19:31 |
| AStorm | mgedmin: it is 800*480*YUV | 19:31 |
| mgedmin | 752 KB | 19:31 |
| AStorm | I think. | 19:31 |
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| AStorm | it's not RGB | 19:32 |
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| Wooly | AStorm: /dev/fb0 is BGRA | 19:32 |
| AStorm | oh | 19:32 |
| luke-jr | Stskeeps: and polluting Qt in the same fashon? :p | 19:32 |
| ShadowJK | fb0 isn't yuv | 19:32 |
| Wooly | took me a while to work that out :D | 19:32 |
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| AStorm | so it's 32-bit then? | 19:32 |
| ShadowJK | besides, yuv would be 12 bits per pixel and smaller :P | 19:32 |
| rm_you | Stskeeps: heh, I suppose that's a good move... though doesn't Qt build against C++? never saw C bindings | 19:32 |
| Wooly | holay mackerel | 19:32 |
| AStorm | we're not talking about fb duh | 19:32 |
| luke-jr | Stskeeps: why does Nokia seem obsessed with requiring non-standard extensions for apps to work? | 19:32 |
| AStorm | or, we are ;P | 19:32 |
| mgedmin | we are :) | 19:33 |
| AStorm | if it is BGRA that'd be 800*480*4 | 19:33 |
| luke-jr | rm_you: Qt itself is basically its own programming language | 19:33 |
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| Wooly | I overlooked the fact that when I copy /dev/fb0 I convert from 16bpp to 32bpp | 19:33 |
| Wooly | d'oh! | 19:33 |
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| ShadowJK | lol | 19:33 |
| AStorm | it's likely not BGRA, but BGR | 19:33 |
| Wooly | what a dolt | 19:33 |
| AStorm | so *3 | 19:33 |
| mgedmin | AStorm: only if each of the channels were allocated 8 bits | 19:33 |
| Wooly | AStorm: you're right I think | 19:33 |
| mgedmin | is it 5-6-5 or 5-5-5? | 19:33 |
| lbt_ | m-vo: sorry PSU blew on the firewall! | 19:33 |
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| rm_you | hrmrmrm | 19:33 |
| Wooly | it's 16bpp in a 565 | 19:33 |
| AStorm | even funnier ;P | 19:34 |
| Wooly | then I convert to bgra at 32bpp | 19:34 |
| Wooly | s/bgra/rgba/ | 19:34 |
| infobot | Wooly meant: then I convert to rgba at 32bpp | 19:34 |
| AStorm | so it's BGRA 16bpp | 19:34 |
| mgedmin | but you were saying that when you read from /dev/fb0, you get back 1.4 megs of data? | 19:34 |
| AStorm | with 8-bit alpha? | 19:34 |
| mgedmin | AStorm: no alpha | 19:34 |
| Wooly | mgedmin: no alpha | 19:34 |
| mgedmin | gaah | 19:34 |
| mgedmin | on the input side no alpha | 19:35 |
| mgedmin | I suppose it appears when you convert _to_ BGRA | 19:35 |
| Wooly | mgedmin: I overlooked the fact that I was converting | 19:35 |
| mgedmin | and now everything is clear | 19:35 |
| AStorm | meh meh. | 19:35 |
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| Wooly | okay so /dev/fb0 is 16bpp 565 bgr | 19:35 |
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| Wooly | then my output is 32bpp rgba | 19:35 |
| Wooly | which gives 1.56MB for a screen, phewft | 19:35 |
| * glass is glad that the 18bit displaymode was a fad for nokia | 19:36 | |
| luke-jr | eh? | 19:36 |
| luke-jr | isn't 18-bit what most LCDs are? :p | 19:36 |
| rm_you | hrmrm | 19:36 |
| mgedmin | I had a thinkpad with an 18-bit panel, I think | 19:37 |
| mgedmin | desktop wallpaper gradients looked *atrocious* | 19:37 |
| mgedmin | aren't most LCDs 24-bit these days? | 19:37 |
| luke-jr | yeah, according to Wikipedia, "almost all cheap LCD displays use dithered 18-bit color" | 19:37 |
| glass | hehe | 19:37 |
| luke-jr | mgedmin: only expensive ones? | 19:37 |
| glass | luke-jr: yeah i don't care what it is when actually displayed | 19:37 |
| mgedmin | difference being "most LCDs" versus "most cheap LCDs" | 19:38 |
| luke-jr | glass: no point sending 24-bit if only 18-bit is displayed | 19:38 |
| mgedmin | maybe newer thinkpads use more expensive lcds... | 19:38 |
| luke-jr | better save RAM and only work in 18-bit everywhere | 19:38 |
| glass | luke-jr: it was upped from 16, on memory constrained devices | 19:38 |
| glass | luke-jr: on displays where you couldn't see the difference anyways | 19:38 |
| glass | luke-jr: n90/n70 | 19:39 |
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| glass | luke-jr: also it fucked my bit routines, so i'm biased | 19:39 |
| mgedmin | :) | 19:39 |
| mgedmin | writing low-level code is fun | 19:39 |
| mgedmin | until you move to a new platform and discover what "portability" really means | 19:40 |
| AStorm | lcd is 12-bit, right? | 19:40 |
| * mgedmin used to loove embedding 16-bit Intel inline assembly into his Borland Pascal programs | 19:40 | |
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| mgedmin | 12 bit sounds a bit scary | 19:40 |
| mgedmin | I had a phone with 4096 colours, ick | 19:40 |
| glass | 12bit was what those routines of mine were first written for | 19:40 |
| glass | s60 1st ed | 19:41 |
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| AStorm | mgedmin: not as scary as you'd think | 19:41 |
| luke-jr | I want a 32-bit wearable HUD :D | 19:42 |
| Wooly | har | 19:42 |
| AStorm | with good dithering it's acceptable | 19:42 |
| mgedmin | if you have low standards of acceptability | 19:42 |
| Wooly | luke-jr: with augmented reality engine? | 19:42 |
| mgedmin | for user interface, 4096 is fine | 19:42 |
| AStorm | (and with such high PPI, it's definitely acceptable) | 19:42 |
| mgedmin | for pictures, not | 19:42 |
| glass | yeh | 19:42 |
| AStorm | no, it is | 19:42 |
| luke-jr | Wooly: that would be a bonus | 19:42 |
| luke-jr | Wooly: the alpha channel should be literal transparent though | 19:42 |
| AStorm | since you have a small screen with so many pixels | 19:42 |
| luke-jr | Wooly: eg, 0 latency | 19:42 |
| AStorm | heavy dithering can be used | 19:42 |
| Wooly | heh | 19:42 |
| AStorm | you get visuals close to 16-bit | 19:42 |
| AStorm | (but no banding artifacts) | 19:43 |
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| luke-jr | 32-bit HUD is semi-AR already actually | 19:43 |
| luke-jr | adding a camera would make it moreso | 19:43 |
| mgedmin | hm, actually, perhaps that 16-bit LCD I complained about was a cheap one that didn't do dithering | 19:43 |
| mgedmin | thus when I don't see atrocious banding in gradients, I'm actually looking at 16-bit LCDs that do do dithering | 19:43 |
| glass | anyhow, with 18bit one wasted the memory of extra byte per pixel with no noticiable benefits | 19:44 |
| luke-jr | to get a fully AR system, you would need to manipulate the camera input and override direct visuals entirely | 19:44 |
| luke-jr | *or* get a HUD with hardware accelerated AR via mirrors | 19:44 |
| glass | (and dunno what the display on those actually was, but thats how it was in mem) | 19:44 |
| luke-jr | not sure the latter acceleration is possible tho | 19:44 |
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| luke-jr | maybe instead of mirrors, micromanage a water pool | 19:47 |
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| * luke-jr wonders what kind of field of science the person implementing this would need to have studied | 19:47 | |
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| glass | lsd | 19:47 |
| luke-jr | -.- | 19:48 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: It's not so much the escience IMO - it's the engineering. | 19:48 |
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| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: you would need to understand the technicalities for bending light :p | 19:49 |
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| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: Ah - that's pretty simple. | 19:50 |
| luke-jr | for example, say I wrote an AR engine to turn human faces into cubes | 19:50 |
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| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: Firstly - ignore everything you've seen on star-trek. | 19:50 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: it's a lie. | 19:50 |
| luke-jr | how would the acceleration manipulate the water/etc to bend such? | 19:50 |
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| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: I haven't seen Star Trek | 19:51 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: also star-wars, and ... Generally anything with beam weaponary is right out. | 19:51 |
| luke-jr | :p | 19:51 |
| luke-jr | I don't see how they're related | 19:51 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: in order to change the direction of a beam of light - you need to put something in the way. This can be plasma - which requires temperatures hotter than the surface of the sun - and UV lasers. | 19:51 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: or more commonly - a lens or prism or something. | 19:52 |
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| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: this also means that anything involving artificial reality where there is nothing between the pupil of your eye, and the visible object is also a lie. | 19:52 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: basically, the software would analyze the camera input, identify human heads, and send the accelerated OpenGL-AR commands to reform the head into a cube shape | 19:52 |
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| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: HUD is worn over the eyes | 19:53 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: you're basically looking in that case - for current technology - at a opaque screen then. | 19:53 |
| SpeedEvil | With all the reality provided with cameras. | 19:53 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: if I were talking about current tech, it wouldn't be interesting | 19:53 |
| luke-jr | camera->manipulation->display is slow | 19:54 |
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| SpeedEvil | Well - there is slow and slow. | 19:54 |
| SpeedEvil | Cameras are available that go >1000fps | 19:54 |
| SpeedEvil | And displays that do several hundred Hz | 19:54 |
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| SpeedEvil | theyu are of course not cheap yet. | 19:54 |
| luke-jr | I want a system that analyzes the camera, but sends the display light movement instructions to use water or whatever to arrange the light as demanded | 19:54 |
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| luke-jr | so what I actually see has no delay | 19:54 |
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| luke-jr | other than the effects possibly being delayed | 19:55 |
| glass_ | why not just semi-transparent | 19:55 |
| luke-jr | glass_: this would be on top of transparent | 19:55 |
| glass_ | normal displays. because they're available? | 19:55 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: there isn't really an existant technology that would be close to that | 19:55 |
| luke-jr | glass_: the idea is to *manipulate* the light being transparently let through | 19:55 |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: again, | 19:56 |
| rm_you | damn, now I just need to convince ABL to actually show up in the statusbar :P | 19:56 |
| luke-jr | if I were talking about current tech, it wouldn't be interesting | 19:56 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: plus - you'd for optical reasons need a physically large device | 19:56 |
| glass | i'd just prefer electrodes to my head | 19:56 |
| luke-jr | glass: computers add latency | 19:56 |
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| luke-jr | there will never be a computer that can do this as fast as light :p | 19:56 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: and you don't care - once you get below about 5ms - it doens't matter | 19:57 |
| glass | what logical device would choose how to manipulate the light then? | 19:57 |
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| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: tell the cop that when you're in an accident | 19:57 |
| luke-jr | glass: a computer, of course; but the light itself wouldn't be delayed, just the manipulations | 19:57 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: Whereas a manipulated realtime image is of course safe? | 19:58 |
| * dottedmag .oO(and then GC kicks in and delays everything for a second) | 19:58 | |
| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: of course :) | 19:58 |
| luke-jr | dottedmag: LOL | 19:58 |
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| luke-jr | but worst case with my idea, you have a cubed dog instead of a cubed head | 19:59 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: no. | 19:59 |
| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: you have a car that's moved off to the left 10 degrees so it looks like it's not on an intersecting course | 19:59 |
| luke-jr | could also have a failsafe that reverts to full transparency w/o manipulations if no updates in N ms | 19:59 |
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| luke-jr | SpeedEvil: if it's that small, you're far off enough that you won't be hitting it in a second | 20:01 |
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| SpeedEvil | luke-jr: 10 degrees is a _large_ angle when it comes to avoiding collisions | 20:01 |
| SpeedEvil | hold your arm out with your fist clenched. 10 degrees is approximately the width of your fist. | 20:02 |
| luke-jr | but that's a few seconds away, for a car | 20:03 |
| SpeedEvil | It's perhaps a second if you're closing on the car at 100MPH in an adjacent lane. | 20:03 |
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| SpeedEvil | Also - you run into fundamental optics limits that are corrolaries to the laws of thermodynamics. | 20:07 |
| SpeedEvil | You can't magnify an object and have it maintain its brightness | 20:07 |
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| Stskeeps | mm, what was it sponsorship covered again? | 20:15 |
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| lbt | travel/hotel | 20:15 |
| Stskeeps | thursday evening, friday night, saturday night and travel back sunday night? | 20:15 |
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| lbt | yes | 20:16 |
| lbt | AFAIUI | 20:16 |
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| konttori__ | good discussion m-vo, RST38h and jaffa. | 20:17 |
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| konttori__ | anyway, emmc perf is really not that bad if you read or write large chunks of data. | 20:17 |
| konttori__ | it just is not viable for small reads/writes at all. | 20:17 |
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| ShadowJK | like swap :) | 20:17 |
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| RST38h | konttori: If I understand things correctly, the issue is with executables and libraries | 20:18 |
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| RST38h | konttori: that get mmapped and read randomly in page increments | 20:18 |
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| RST38h | NASA scientists have created an anti-gravity field that works at room temperature, which is a big Where's My Back to the Future Skateboard breakthrough. The only problem is that it only works on mice. Mice high as kites, in fact. | 20:20 |
| ShadowJK | Oh yeah.. The recent modifications in linux to protect mapped executable pages should help there a bit | 20:20 |
| ShadowJK | (in that pages get thrown out less?) | 20:20 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: I think it is easier to just keep binaries and small libs in / | 20:21 |
| RST38h | "first mouse actually kicked around and started to spin, and without friction, it could spin faster and faster, and we think that made it even more disoriented." | 20:21 |
| zeev | Hi, if I have internet access from my mobile provider - 1.1 can I turn N900 into an access point? 1.2 is at a standard feature, or do I have to hack around with it? 2.1 can I connect N900 via USB to my desktop(debian) and use to access internet? 2.2 the same as 1.2? | 20:21 |
| ShadowJK | RST38h, well it should help there too :) | 20:21 |
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| RST38h | zeev: there is no stock hardware for 1.1 | 20:22 |
| RST38h | zeev: but there is hope that somebody will implement it | 20:22 |
| zeev | stock software? or hardware? | 20:22 |
| ShadowJK | I would atleast expect to see instructions for sharing internet connection out over bluetooth coming soon | 20:22 |
| RST38h | software | 20:23 |
| zeev | and what about 2? | 20:23 |
| RST38h | zeev: yes you can but also with some extra software | 20:23 |
| wazd_ | http://gizmodo.com/5356440/nokia-twist-in-all-its-pivoting-glory-heads-to-verizon-for-100 <- new maemo device :D | 20:24 |
| RST38h | wazd: That is Mako | 20:25 |
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| RST38h | wazd: made for AT&T originally | 20:25 |
| wazd_ | when I saw Nokla's knock-off I thought "wow, no way these guys made it for themselves" :) | 20:25 |
| RST38h | ah wait I am wrong | 20:25 |
| wazd_ | I like the concept :) | 20:25 |
| RST38h | it is not mako, it is a new phone, cool concept too | 20:26 |
| RST38h | 5-row keyboard!!! | 20:26 |
| wazd_ | yeah, on a $100 device :) | 20:26 |
| wazd_ | dodge this, n900 :D | 20:26 |
| zeev | and 1.1 was present in N810 right? | 20:27 |
| rm_you | gah, i'm missing something dumb again, i know it... | 20:28 |
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| wazd_ | damn, why don't we have such phones for hundred bucks :( | 20:28 |
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| SpeedEvil | 'with a two year contract' | 20:29 |
| wazd_ | well, $150, ok :D | 20:29 |
| wazd_ | SpeedEvil: I don't think that the contract will be near as expensive as iPhone's | 20:30 |
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| SpeedEvil | wazd_: probably not - however unless you know the actual cotnract terms it's hard to work out the price | 20:31 |
| ShadowJK | zeenix, wifi access point? the wifi didn't have AP I think | 20:32 |
| ShadowJK | Well.. and N810 couldn't access mobile cellphone networks | 20:32 |
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| mfinkle | anyone else experiencing slow/broken ssh using openssh on n900? | 20:34 |
| Stskeeps | probably the usual PSM? | 20:35 |
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| luke-jr | wazd_: does that actually run Maemo? | 20:35 |
| unixSnob | mfinkle: periodically I notice that on the n800.. I did't know ssh was the problem though | 20:35 |
| mfinkle | unixSnob: it seems to connect, but then kinda hangs | 20:36 |
| luke-jr | mfinkle: PSM disabled? | 20:36 |
| konttori__ | lcuk2: nice http://blogs.nokia.com/nseries/index.php/2009/09/03/first-creative-application-of-n900/ | 20:37 |
| mfinkle | luke-jr: tell me more :) | 20:37 |
| konttori__ | cool stuff! | 20:37 |
| RST38h | wazs: The catch is that Verizon has CDMA network | 20:37 |
| RST38h | wazd: and most likely this twist device runs S40 | 20:37 |
| unixSnob | psm=power saving mode | 20:37 |
| unixSnob | I run with PSM disabled. Usually I get decent performance, but it seems at random times, SSH slows to an absolute crawl | 20:38 |
| unixSnob | I mean, PSM is ENABLED.. sorry | 20:38 |
| luke-jr | RST38h: bah, the 5 rows are useless anyhow. they just added dumb buttons, not a number row | 20:38 |
| unixSnob | AFAIK, PSM only needs to be disabled to connect to Fonera routers | 20:39 |
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| mfinkle | disabling PSM did the trick | 20:43 |
| mfinkle | I could have tested using "intermediate" too | 20:44 |
| Stskeeps | woo, custom HIM: https://bugs.maemo.org/attachment.cgi?id=1356&action=view | 20:44 |
| * Stskeeps raises a glass to the people who came up with it | 20:44 | |
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| Robot101 | Stskeeps: :D | 20:48 |
| Robot101 | nice! | 20:48 |
| frals | nice! | 20:48 |
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| rm_you | nice, lcuk made that? :P | 20:50 |
| rm_you | is he actually working for nokia now? | 20:50 |
| mikeos | anyone running fremantle under scratchbox 2? missing rootstrap for beta2 in SDK+, broken repos, impossible to strat gui for both arm and i386.. | 20:52 |
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| RST38h | mikeos: I only encountered broken gui | 20:54 |
| RST38h | mikeos: apparently armel bootstrap does not run under emulator, in neither scratchbox | 20:54 |
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| RST38h | had to add the sdk repo by hand | 20:55 |
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| mikeos | RST38h: i added the repo by hand, but it doesn't start. Perhaps more needs to be done than coyping the rootstrap into ~/.maemo/..... | 20:55 |
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| RST38h | it will not start as I said | 20:56 |
| RST38h | armel bootstrap will not run gui | 20:56 |
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| RST38h | same in sb1 | 20:56 |
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| wazd_ | luke-jr: ofcourse not :D | 20:56 |
| mikeos | RST38h: i did not succeed to hack the rootstrap index file by hand; the maemo-sdk controlling script just does not see it | 20:56 |
| mikeos | with diablo the gui runs ok under both i386 and armel | 20:57 |
| PenStand | Hi guys. Since Maemo and Android are based on Linux, is it possible to install Maemo on an Android device or Android on a Maemo device like N900? | 20:57 |
| luke-jr | PenStand: Android doesn't use a standard Linux kernel | 20:58 |
| RST38h | android on maemo is possible but not the vice versa | 20:58 |
| luke-jr | rather, it uses a fork | 20:58 |
| luke-jr | RST38h: Maemo can be ported, no? | 20:58 |
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| luke-jr | oh, right | 20:58 |
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| PenStand | RST38h: why not? | 20:59 |
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| luke-jr | PenStand: Maemo isn't open | 20:59 |
| PenStand | not open source?!!! | 20:59 |
| luke-jr | PenStand: if you did manage to run it, it would probably violate the EULA | 20:59 |
| PenStand | =-O | 20:59 |
| luke-jr | or copyright | 20:59 |
| RST38h | maemo is specific to nokia hardware | 20:59 |
| luke-jr | PenStand: bits and pieces are | 20:59 |
| PenStand | =-O=-O=-O=-O=-O | 20:59 |
| luke-jr | but not as a whole | 20:59 |
| luke-jr | at least not Maemo 4 | 20:59 |
| luke-jr | dunno about 5 | 20:59 |
| RST38h | android is not specific to any particular hardware hence it can be ported | 20:59 |
| PenStand | I'm shocked! | 21:00 |
| rm_you | yeah, we're pushing constantly to get more and more of it open, but there are little bits and pieces here and there that are closed (and a lot of them are critical... <_<) | 21:00 |
| zerojay | Ugh | 21:00 |
| RST38h | in short, you will have to sell your G1 and buy N900 | 21:00 |
| luke-jr | PenStand: summary, this is why I don't plan to buy a N900 :p | 21:00 |
| PenStand | but Maemo is based on Debian | 21:00 |
| mikeos | RST38h: did you modify the file /opt/maemo/tools/maemo-sdk/index.rootstraps ? | 21:00 |
| luke-jr | until it's usable with free software | 21:00 |
| PenStand | which is open source | 21:00 |
| luke-jr | PenStand: yes | 21:01 |
| Myrtti | PenStand: and...? | 21:01 |
| luke-jr | PenStand: but Debian as a whole is not GPL-2 | 21:01 |
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| luke-jr | and even if it were, adding things is still not protected | 21:01 |
| Myrtti | precompiled close source kernel modules... | 21:01 |
| Myrtti | ever heard? | 21:01 |
| rm_you | Myrtti: you going to the summit? | 21:01 |
| PenStand | so as I know all parties that want to use an open source code should use them in an open source manner | 21:01 |
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| luke-jr | Myrtti: those are illegal | 21:01 |
| PenStand | i.e Maemo MUST be open source | 21:01 |
| luke-jr | PenStand: should != must | 21:01 |
| Myrtti | luke-jr: in what jurisdiction ;-) | 21:01 |
| luke-jr | Myrtti: any with copyright | 21:02 |
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| PenStand | luke-jr:yeah | 21:02 |
| luke-jr | Myrtti: kernel modules are derived works in Linux | 21:02 |
| PenStand | luke-jr: I meant to use MUST | 21:02 |
| luke-jr | PenStand: GPL-2 only extends to stuff that links at most | 21:02 |
| luke-jr | and most of Debian isn't GPL-2 | 21:02 |
| Myrtti | luke-jr: FWIW, none of the open source licences have been tested in Finnish juridiciary trials | 21:02 |
| Myrtti | then again, IANAL | 21:03 |
| luke-jr | Myrtti: Finland doesn't have copyright law? | 21:03 |
| rm_you | Myrtti: summit? :P | 21:03 |
| luke-jr | licenses are contracts, which are pretty universal | 21:03 |
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| luke-jr | Myrtti: if they don't agree to the license/contract terms, they cannot distribute Linux at all | 21:04 |
| Myrtti | rm_you: attending a wedding in Littlehampton :-/ | 21:04 |
| unixSnob | folks are confusing criminal law with civil law | 21:04 |
| PenStand | I won't use or support Maemo as it's not open source. | 21:04 |
| rm_you | ah :/ | 21:04 |
| luke-jr | unixSnob: nobody brought up criminal law at all | 21:04 |
| PenStand | I'll just support Android | 21:04 |
| rm_you | well, have fun with that i guess :) | 21:04 |
| unixSnob | violating a EULA is not criminal, it's civil | 21:04 |
| luke-jr | PenStand: Android isn't either I hear | 21:04 |
| luke-jr | PenStand: at least not in practic | 21:04 |
| luke-jr | unixSnob: illegal doesn't mean criminal | 21:04 |
| PenStand | but more open than Maemo | 21:04 |
| unixSnob | luke-jr: someone said it was "illegal" to use an OS not permitted in the tos | 21:04 |
| luke-jr | PenStand: personally I run Gentoo | 21:04 |
| luke-jr | unixSnob: Illegal to copy closed Maemo bits to a non-Nokia device, yes. | 21:05 |
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| PenStand | luke-jr: yeah I heard there are some closed areas in Android but very few | 21:05 |
| wazd_ | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqtgfjkB6Pg <- Big Lebowski is a genius movie :D | 21:05 |
| luke-jr | unixSnob: but nobody said anything about criminal law | 21:05 |
| * Stskeeps gets out the popcorn | 21:05 | |
| luke-jr | "illegal" != "criminal" | 21:05 |
| luke-jr | violations of any law are illegal | 21:05 |
| PenStand | luke-jr: I think those closed areas related to the hardware. | 21:05 |
| luke-jr | PenStand: which is the important parts | 21:06 |
| luke-jr | I'd rather have open hardware access and closed UI | 21:06 |
| rm_you | bbl | 21:06 |
| luke-jr | than open UI and closed hardware access | 21:06 |
| unixSnob | luke-jr: contracts are not law. You can violate them. it's not illegal | 21:06 |
| luke-jr | the UI can be replaced | 21:06 |
| Myrtti | Use Freerunner then | 21:06 |
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| Myrtti | PenStand: do you have a freerunner? | 21:06 |
| Myrtti | no? | 21:06 |
| gnuton | Hi | 21:06 |
| luke-jr | unixSnob: copyright is law | 21:06 |
| PenStand | no | 21:06 |
| unixSnob | sure, but violating EULA is not violating *copyright* | 21:07 |
| PenStand | Myrtti: freerunner is too old | 21:07 |
| luke-jr | contracts are founded upon law | 21:07 |
| Myrtti | PenStand: but you wanted open source ;-) | 21:07 |
| luke-jr | unixSnob: in this case, it's more blanket copyright than EULA | 21:07 |
| mikeos | PenStand: i don't think so..one is jailed in dalvik vm | 21:07 |
| unixSnob | luke-jr: nokia can write whatever they want in the contract -- that doesn't make it law, and violations do not necessarily violate copyright law | 21:07 |
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| PenStand | Myrtti: I want an open source mobile OS not OP hardware | 21:08 |
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| luke-jr | unixSnob: Nokia doesn't grant you permission to copy their closed software. Doing so anyway is violation of copyright law. | 21:08 |
| unixSnob | luke-jr: you can put in a EULA that users cannot take a shit while using the maemo.. doesn't mean users are breaking any laws by doing so | 21:08 |
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| Myrtti | PenStand: butr if you don't have op hardware, you might not be able to have open source mobile os | 21:08 |
| luke-jr | OP? | 21:08 |
| Myrtti | PenStand: freerunner, which you say is too old, doesn't include 3G, because there hasn't been a 3G chip, that would have open source drivers | 21:09 |
| PenStand | Myrtti: luke-jr: (09:09:06 PM) jasta: PenStand: Google proprietary applications and device-specific drivers are closed source, but these are not Android. | 21:09 |
| unixSnob | And when it comes to copying for personal use, the fair use doctrine is a very effective defense | 21:09 |
| unixSnob | luke-jr: it's the redistribution following the copying where copyright law becomes effective | 21:09 |
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| luke-jr | PenStand: the drivers are the most important component for freedom | 21:10 |
| PenStand | luke-jr: (09:09:31 PM) jasta: the lion's shar eof code, however, including the platform, kernel, user-space, framework libraries, core apps, etc are all open source | 21:10 |
| luke-jr | PenStand: most of that is irrelevant | 21:11 |
| luke-jr | the drivers are the key component | 21:11 |
| Myrtti | anyway, good luck in your endeavours | 21:11 |
| luke-jr | everything can be replaced except drivers | 21:11 |
| PenStand | luke-jr: why would I need an open source drivers? I can do what ever I want with the hardware if the OS supports them. There are interfaces in the OS that communicates with the hardware. | 21:11 |
| luke-jr | therefore, drivers are the primary most important component to have code for | 21:12 |
| PenStand | why? | 21:12 |
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| luke-jr | because everything else can be replaced | 21:12 |
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| Myrtti | "do what ever I want with the hardware if the OS supports" | 21:13 |
| Myrtti | excuse me, but since when have drivers NOT been part of the OS? | 21:13 |
| unixSnob | There's a project out there to replace maemos drivers -- resulting in a fully open OS that's similar to maemo | 21:13 |
| luke-jr | unixSnob: there is? | 21:14 |
| derf | Myrtti: Since Linux became a microkernel. | 21:14 |
| luke-jr | unixSnob: the only things left are BME and gpsdriver, which AFAIK there's just a few of us loose knit in here trying to reverse engineer | 21:14 |
| luke-jr | derf: never | 21:14 |
| luke-jr | derf: Linux is a monolithic blob | 21:14 |
| unixSnob | luke-jr: yeah, I'm trying to recall the name | 21:14 |
| Myrtti | if the os can't handle the hardware, what good is it then? | 21:15 |
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| Myrtti | I must be getting something wrong | 21:15 |
| unixSnob | mamona.. that's what it's called | 21:15 |
| unixSnob | http://dev.openbossa.org/trac/mamona/ | 21:16 |
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| vasily_pupkin | hi | 21:16 |
| vasily_pupkin | show plz ls -l /etc/network/if-up.d | 21:16 |
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| zerojay | Show boobs plz | 21:17 |
| Myrtti | zerojay: gtfo? | 21:18 |
| zerojay | Lol | 21:18 |
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| zerojay | I wasn't refering to you even. | 21:18 |
| luke-jr | unixSnob: read it | 21:18 |
| zerojay | Hehe | 21:18 |
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| luke-jr | unixSnob: their idea of "progress" is begging Nokia | 21:18 |
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| luke-jr | http://dev.openbossa.org/trac/mamona/wiki/FAQ#WhyIneedproprietarysoftwaretogetmydevicefullyworkingwithMamona | 21:19 |
| Myrtti | zerojay: it just happens to make me feel so welcome here | 21:19 |
| zerojay | I'm sorry.. I was just making a joke that "how dmesg" or "show df -h" is like the unix geek's version of that. No offence was intended towards you or other females in any way. | 21:20 |
| zerojay | So i'm sorry. | 21:20 |
| unixSnob | bummer | 21:20 |
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| Myrtti | zerojay: thank you :-) | 21:21 |
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| gnuton | How can I set up filters in HildonFileChooserDialog? | 21:25 |
| Myrtti | vasily_pupkin: define your question a bit more? would any ls -l do? | 21:25 |
| * AStorm thinks this N900 youtube ad/video should be emitted in TV | 21:25 | |
| Stskeeps | thr | 21:25 |
| Stskeeps | e maemo.nokia.com one should | 21:26 |
| vasily_pupkin | I have some strange error | 21:26 |
| vasily_pupkin | i couldn't get network info with dhcp | 21:26 |
| AStorm | Stskeeps: maybe, I'll check | 21:26 |
| AStorm | might be the same ;> | 21:26 |
| vasily_pupkin | but if I manually start udhcpc all ok O_o | 21:26 |
| vasily_pupkin | may be i erase something from if-up.d | 21:26 |
| * unixSnob thinks it should be stressed that the n900 only supports one sim chip | 21:27 | |
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| Myrtti | vasily_pupkin: on which platform? | 21:27 |
| luke-jr | unixSnob: as opposed to two? | 21:27 |
| ShadowJK | luke-jr, how goes bme reversing? | 21:27 |
| luke-jr | ShadowJK: same place as a month ago | 21:28 |
| unixSnob | luke-jr: yeah, or 3 or 4. Certainly one is not enough | 21:28 |
| vasily_pupkin | diablo | 21:28 |
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| luke-jr | unixSnob: why not? | 21:28 |
| luke-jr | it only has 1 radio | 21:28 |
| ShadowJK | luke-jr, nowhere? :) | 21:28 |
| luke-jr | ShadowJK: -.- | 21:28 |
| Myrtti | unixSnob: why would it need to be specifically stressed - none of nokia phones have ever had dual sim | 21:28 |
| Myrtti | unixSnob: most phones don't have dual sim | 21:29 |
| unixSnob | luke-jr: how many people want to carry a business and personal phone, plus another phone for a data account, and another for crossing borders? | 21:29 |
| Myrtti | unixSnob: how many people have more than one phone? | 21:29 |
| ShadowJK | there was one nokia that you could get battery with dualsim adapter | 21:29 |
| Myrtti | or phone number? | 21:29 |
| AStorm | Stskeeps: I'm having problems playing it (flash works well, so..) | 21:29 |
| Myrtti | ShadowJK: sure, *UNOFFICIAL* | 21:29 |
| AStorm | do you have a link w/o the flash movie player? | 21:29 |
| unixSnob | Myrtti: people don't want business and personal numbers to be the same | 21:29 |
| Myrtti | unixSnob: I wouldn't want to pay for a personal phone number if I'd have a work phone | 21:30 |
| jaska | i remember a friend having some unreleased nokia with two sims in late 90s.. | 21:30 |
| unixSnob | Myrtti: separate control over professional and personal contacts is fundamental | 21:30 |
| AStorm | Stskeeps: looks like video.citum.com is slow/dead | 21:30 |
| Myrtti | unixSnob: most phones don't have it. it would need special attention if they'd HAVE two | 21:30 |
| * ShadowJK has 5 sim cards on the same account&number :-) | 21:30 | |
| unixSnob | Myrtti: it's not a good idea to mix business and personal expenses either | 21:30 |
| Myrtti | unixSnob: since when? If I had a work phone, I'd have to pay taxes for having it | 21:31 |
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| Myrtti | unixSnob: anyway | 21:31 |
| Myrtti | unixSnob: personal preferences | 21:31 |
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| Myrtti | I don't think it needs special attention that they have only one sim slot | 21:31 |
| unixSnob | ShadowJK: are all 5 accounts on standby concurrently? | 21:31 |
| ShadowJK | it's one account | 21:32 |
| unixSnob | ShadowJK: are all 5 numbers on standby concurrently? | 21:32 |
| ShadowJK | if someone calls my number, all 5 ring | 21:32 |
| AStorm | neat eh? | 21:32 |
| * ShadowJK doesnt actually use all 5 | 21:32 | |
| AStorm | my operator doesn't support it unfortunately... at least I'd have to ask specifically | 21:32 |
| unixSnob | 5 different ring tones from one device? | 21:32 |
| ShadowJK | i ordered the max because they were about to discontinue selling it to new | 21:33 |
| AStorm | unixSnob: nah, 5 devices? | 21:33 |
| luke-jr | unixSnob: why would you need 1 SIM per use? | 21:33 |
| AStorm | 5 devices, 5 SIM cards, 1 number, 1 account | 21:33 |
| unixSnob | luke-jr: different providers have different crypto schemes, some are not hackable | 21:33 |
| AStorm | a funny setup | 21:33 |
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| unixSnob | luke-jr: only some providers can be cloned onto a multisim -- and then you still have the problem of only one number being active at a time | 21:34 |
| ShadowJK | astorm: it's nice because I can for example have the same, single data package in both laptop and cellhpone | 21:34 |
| ShadowJK | instead of subscribing to two data packages | 21:34 |
| luke-jr | unixSnob: I wouldn't know. I've never even seen a SIM card. | 21:34 |
| ShadowJK | or swapping sims all the time | 21:34 |
| AStorm | it'll be pointless for me with N900... | 21:34 |
| unixSnob | luke-jr: those multinumber sims just make it so you don't have to physically swap the sim chip.. it's still like you just have one in at a time | 21:34 |
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| chx | wish fido would give me two sim card | 21:35 |
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| chx | sthey dont | 21:35 |
| luke-jr | unixSnob: couldn't you just load the SIM into a file? :) | 21:35 |
| AStorm | since N900 is better than all modems available here | 21:35 |
| AStorm | (they do HSPA 7.2/x) | 21:35 |
| AStorm | (not that I'd ever see this kind of bandwidth ;p) | 21:36 |
| unixSnob | luke-jr: no phones are that sophisticated, and there's still the up front effort of cloning (which is only possible with some providers). It's better just to have multiple sims | 21:36 |
| unixSnob | AStorm: the mifi lasts 4 hours continuously.. does the n900 last that long? | 21:37 |
| AStorm | how would I know? | 21:37 |
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| AStorm | I don't have it (yet) | 21:37 |
| ShadowJK | depends what you do | 21:38 |
| unixSnob | i don't have a mifi either... just read reviews | 21:38 |
| AStorm | I was thinking about USB connection | 21:38 |
| AStorm | using N900 as a modem | 21:38 |
| AStorm | it should last at least as much though | 21:38 |
| wazd_ | http://i066.radikal.ru/0909/49/3170e38618c4.png <- check it out :) | 21:38 |
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| unixSnob | AStorm: since it has a display, I would expect it to last under 4 hrs (mifi doesn't power a display) | 21:39 |
| AStorm | no. | 21:39 |
| AStorm | don't underestimate the energy efficiency of new diodes | 21:39 |
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| AStorm | Stskeeps: so, where else can I get that "Introducing Maemo 5" movie? | 21:40 |
| aSIMULAtor | cool wazd | 21:40 |
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| aSIMULAtor | are you using impact as a font? i was going to suggest maybe using the abn amro font on the ajax jerseys :P | 21:40 |
| ShadowJK | n900 as modem would be with screen off though | 21:40 |
| AStorm | true | 21:40 |
| unixSnob | AStorm: so the cost of powering a color LCD is negligable? I don't believe that. The epaper books would die immediately | 21:40 |
| AStorm | and connected via USB, so charging ;P | 21:40 |
| wazd_ | aSIMULAtor: are they stolen?) | 21:41 |
| AStorm | unixSnob: not negligible, but not high either | 21:41 |
| AStorm | 1W of LCD light is a lot of light | 21:41 |
| AStorm | *LED light | 21:41 |
| aSIMULAtor | http://www.quickproducts.nl/images/Ajax%20T-shirt%20Amsterdam%20XXX.jpg | 21:41 |
| AStorm | and you can easily live with much less | 21:41 |
| SpeedEvil | AStorm: however | 21:42 |
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| AStorm | LCD itself is very small | 21:42 |
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| ShadowJK | it's less than 1W in n810 iirc | 21:42 |
| AStorm | *uses very little power | 21:42 |
| SpeedEvil | AStorm: theoretically the best that can come out of a RGB is 1/3 * 1/2 = 1/6th of the input light | 21:42 |
| AStorm | SpeedEvil: barring recent improvements in filters. | 21:42 |
| SpeedEvil | (and it's not that good) | 21:42 |
| wazd_ | aSIMULAtor: I think impact is nice :) free and it dits :) | 21:42 |
| SpeedEvil | AStorm: err - no | 21:42 |
| wazd_ | fits* | 21:42 |
| zerojay | Comic sans. Lol | 21:43 |
| AStorm | err, yes. you can sacrifice saturation for more light as well | 21:43 |
| SpeedEvil | AStorm: 1/2 - polarisation losses. 2/3 due to a red photon hitting a green or blue filter | 21:43 |
| * zerojay runs | 21:43 | |
| AStorm | SpeedEvil: polarisation losses are compensated by generating polarised light | 21:43 |
| AStorm | haha. | 21:43 |
| AStorm | ;P | 21:43 |
| SpeedEvil | AStorm: there are unfortunately no polarised LEDs or CCFL tubes | 21:43 |
| AStorm | (or partially polarised) | 21:43 |
| AStorm | sure there are | 21:44 |
| AStorm | guess what's used for CD drives | 21:44 |
| SpeedEvil | Lasers. | 21:44 |
| AStorm | yeah. | 21:44 |
| SpeedEvil | Lasers are polarised inherently. | 21:44 |
| AStorm | and lasers emit what kind of light? | 21:44 |
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| AStorm | correct. | 21:44 |
| SpeedEvil | However - LEDs are not LASERs. | 21:44 |
| AStorm | there are laser LEDs. | 21:45 |
| SpeedEvil | And are not polarised to any significant degree. | 21:45 |
| SpeedEvil | AStorm: Sure there are. They aren't used in backlights. | 21:45 |
| AStorm | not sure if there are any white laser LEDs though ;> | 21:45 |
| aSIMULAtor | the only problem with the red text is that it's probably going to be very small on teh shirt, the readability won't be that great, unless you're cool with people stopping you and having alook at your back for a few mins :P | 21:45 |
| AStorm | usually. | 21:45 |
| SpeedEvil | Your average white - or even coloured - LED - is not polarised. | 21:45 |
| aSIMULAtor | or if that's the front part of the shirt, i'd be like hey dude stop staring at my titties | 21:45 |
| zerojay | You mean dmesg? Lol | 21:46 |
| wazd_ | aSIMULAtor: that's not for ts btw, that's a sticker :) | 21:46 |
| AStorm | you could force a led to generate more coherent light | 21:46 |
| SpeedEvil | aSIMULAtor: If you wear small text - you give a valid excuse! | 21:46 |
| AStorm | and use correct mirror | 21:46 |
| AStorm | to keep polarisation | 21:46 |
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| aSIMULAtor | sorry i'm not up to date with some things :) hehe | 21:46 |
| AStorm | (or drop mirrors altogether and use many tiny LEDs) | 21:46 |
| SpeedEvil | AStorm: Sure - however - no current power LEDs produced polarised light - and there is many millions going into this field of research. | 21:47 |
| AStorm | (but then, OLED might be a better pick) | 21:47 |
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| AStorm | who said about one or two power leds | 21:47 |
| AStorm | I'm saying drop 256 tiny LEDs | 21:47 |
| SpeedEvil | AStorm: Point to one source of efficient polarised light generating LED | 21:47 |
| AStorm | Checking... | 21:48 |
| SpeedEvil | There are devices that emit polarised light. | 21:48 |
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| SpeedEvil | They are not as efficient as simply living with the 50% loss from the most efficient white sources | 21:48 |
| AStorm | http://www.physorg.com/news123782366.html | 21:48 |
| aSIMULAtor | waz: yeah i definitely like the amsterdam flag concept more than that circular thingamabob | 21:48 |
| AStorm | SpeedEvil: you lose. | 21:48 |
| SpeedEvil | By a _long_ margin | 21:48 |
| SpeedEvil | AStorm: that is not a source. | 21:48 |
| AStorm | yeah, as if you could buy them in a shop | 21:49 |
| AStorm | that tech is patented | 21:49 |
| AStorm | and likely held secure by whoever makes them | 21:49 |
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| SpeedEvil | AStorm: that is someone who has made an LED of unknown efficiency, unknown polararisation amount, unknown cost, unknown lifespan, and unknown yield. | 21:49 |
| AStorm | SpeedEvil: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20090040465 | 21:50 |
| AStorm | have fun reading the patent | 21:50 |
| SpeedEvil | I don't care about patents. | 21:50 |
| AStorm | ... | 21:51 |
| SpeedEvil | I care about what is actually shipping from lumileds, cree, seoul, ... | 21:51 |
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| AStorm | SpeedEvil: Orled is using such leds in electron microscopes | 21:51 |
| SpeedEvil | If anyone had a largely polarised efficient LED - they'd be shouting it from the rooftops. | 21:51 |
| AndrewFBlack | Just posted some screenshots of a new theme I'm working on for Mer/Maemo | 21:51 |
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| AStorm | so SOMEONE is producing them | 21:51 |
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| AStorm | I just can't find who by easy googling | 21:51 |
| SpeedEvil | AStorm: 'someone is producting them' does not mean they are available in volume, or are efficient, or are suitable for displays. | 21:52 |
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| AStorm | if they are suitable for normal lighting, they are likely suitable for displays | 21:52 |
| SpeedEvil | AStorm: And again - where are the orderable parts. Or even anyone stating 'our new LCD uses half the backlight power as it uses magic LEDs' | 21:53 |
| AStorm | ... | 21:53 |
| AStorm | yeah yeah. if I could find part numbers... | 21:53 |
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| SpeedEvil | AStorm: If you can't - it's also possible the technology doesn't exist commercially yet. | 21:54 |
| AStorm | it is, as I said it's in specialist use | 21:55 |
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| AStorm | both that microscope and certain hair transplant apparatus ;P | 21:55 |
| AStorm | but maybe yields are low or something | 21:55 |
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| SpeedEvil | hair transplants will use red laser diodes - these are very, very cheap, and polarised. | 21:56 |
| AStorm | true | 21:56 |
| SpeedEvil | (but not actually very efficient) | 21:56 |
| AStorm | but that one uses white light | 21:56 |
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| AStorm | (which is weird in its own right) | 21:57 |
| ShadowJK | wait for the patents to expire and someone will figure out how to make them cheaply | 21:57 |
| AStorm | anyway, let's drop the topic for now | 21:57 |
| AStorm | yeah, the patent is new, 2005 | 21:57 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: If it's possible at all. Current white LEDs are about 3 times better than making the same LEDs from individual colour LEDs - due to use of a phosphor from blue LEDs. Phosphors inherently generate non-polarised light | 21:58 |
| AStorm | some phosphors do generate polarized light | 21:58 |
| AStorm | but 90 deg. out of phase, so you'd need to correct that | 21:59 |
| AStorm | not impossible :) | 21:59 |
| SpeedEvil | err - what? | 22:00 |
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| ShadowJK | let's just put a couple of Cree MC-E diodes in there. Should shine quite nicely at full power. | 22:01 |
| SpeedEvil | Anyway - this is completely off-topic | 22:01 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: yeah - they are coming out with even shinier ones soon. | 22:01 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: 140lm/W - insane. | 22:01 |
| SpeedEvil | (compared to the 20 - only a few years ago) | 22:01 |
| AStorm | yeah. | 22:01 |
| * ShadowJK has 1.5yr old aaa light that pumps out 100lm | 22:02 | |
| AStorm | SpeedEvil: the trick with that phosphor is that if you shine at it polarized light, it starts shining polarized 90 deg. out of phase, but at diff. wavelength | 22:02 |
| RST38h | so what is the efficiency? | 22:02 |
| wazd_ | http://s16.radikal.ru/i190/0909/fa/709f9ac844ef.png :D | 22:02 |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: that's actually a _horrible_ question | 22:02 |
| ShadowJK | lol | 22:02 |
| Stskeeps | wazd_: hah | 22:02 |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: Lighting units are the most confusing mess ever. | 22:03 |
| aSIMULAtor | rofflez | 22:03 |
| RST38h | wazd: you should start selling those =) | 22:03 |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: but something between 20 and 25%ish | 22:03 |
| RST38h | so before that ot was 3%? | 22:03 |
| RST38h | s/ot/it | 22:03 |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: more like 5ish | 22:03 |
| ShadowJK | and with that 120lm/Watt thing, if you feed it 1watt you probably wont get 120lm. the efficiency is calculated at 50mA or something :) | 22:04 |
| RST38h | terrible | 22:04 |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: ShadowJK: nope | 22:04 |
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| ShadowJK | but efficiency does decrease with larger currents :) | 22:04 |
| SpeedEvil | ShadowJK: at 50mA - it gets moderately more efficient - the efficiency is rated at 350mA | 22:04 |
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| RST38h | so, luminiscent tubes are still the only efficient solution? | 22:05 |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: nope. | 22:05 |
| RST38h | ? | 22:05 |
| wazd_ | RST38h: well, I give away stuff, as usual :) | 22:05 |
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| SpeedEvil | RST38h: it goes roughly: 5lm/W - torchbulbs, 12lm/W - 'ordinary' bulbs, 15lm/W - halogens, 60lm/W compact flourescant | 22:06 |
| RST38h | wazd: then somebody should start selling those =) | 22:06 |
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| SpeedEvil | RST38h: 100lm/W long tube fluourescants - and 20-140lm/W LEDs | 22:06 |
| RST38h | Speed: but what about power being used? | 22:06 |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: a lumen - 1lm - is a unit of brightness | 22:06 |
| AStorm | LEDs are best there... they scale to low powers | 22:07 |
| AStorm | (fewest W) | 22:07 |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: so 1lm/W is a light source that produces a light output to 1/4pi ths of the light output of a standard candle - given a 1W power input. | 22:07 |
| SpeedEvil | oops | 22:08 |
| SpeedEvil | no - that's right | 22:08 |
| AStorm | SpeedEvil: well, cd unit has been redefined in terms of a radioactive source, but w/e | 22:08 |
| AStorm | cd = candle | 22:08 |
| SpeedEvil | yes - however most poeple know what a candle looks like, and not a square inch of platinum at temperature whatever | 22:08 |
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| Stskeeps | wb qwerty12_N810 | 22:09 |
| AStorm | :) | 22:09 |
| qwerty12_N810 | Thank you, Stskeeps. I've got a big grin on me face... | 22:09 |
| Stskeeps | you got laid on your first day of college? | 22:09 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 22:09 |
| wazd_ | qwerty12_N810: http://s16.radikal.ru/i190/0909/fa/709f9ac844ef.png :) | 22:09 |
| qwerty12_N810 | wazd_: rofl :D | 22:10 |
| qwerty12_N810 | Stskeeps: No, I went to collect some, er, packages | 22:10 |
| SpeedEvil | Were they big packages? | 22:10 |
| AStorm | so, anyone has that "Introducing Maemo 5" movie other than at video.foonotworking.com via flash player? | 22:11 |
| qwerty12_N810 | No, rather small. But, you know, as they say: "Good things come in small packages..." | 22:11 |
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| zerojay | Indeed. | 22:12 |
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| Stskeeps | AStorm: it's on youtube too i think | 22:13 |
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| AStorm | Stskeeps: linky? I tried to find it as well | 22:20 |
| Stskeeps | i don't have flash on this machine right now.. | 22:20 |
| ShadowJK | user nokiaconversations on youtube | 22:21 |
| ShadowJK | view all videos | 22:21 |
| ShadowJK | look for the 3 oldest | 22:21 |
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| Captain_Picard | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQxZG0T1j2s&feature=channel_page A NEW maemo development device | 22:24 |
| Captain_Picard | look =) | 22:24 |
| Captain_Picard | at 0:25 sec | 22:24 |
| Stskeeps | is it in a blue-ish box or something? :P | 22:24 |
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| Captain_Picard | nope | 22:25 |
| Captain_Picard | its black | 22:25 |
| Stskeeps | or black | 22:26 |
| Stskeeps | probably just devs really | 22:26 |
| AStorm | ShadowJK: nah, that's Nokia Dev Summit | 22:26 |
| ShadowJK | . | 22:27 |
| AStorm | ShadowJK: link please, or? | 22:27 |
| ShadowJK | that's how I'd find it | 22:28 |
| ShadowJK | not on the frontpage of thst user | 22:28 |
| AStorm | ... | 22:28 |
| ShadowJK | but in the videos before | 22:28 |
| AStorm | I picked show all | 22:28 |
| AStorm | there's 308 of them | 22:28 |
| AStorm | or was it 306 | 22:28 |
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| Captain_Picard | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9bzSeuHDyo&feature=channel_page who is she? | 22:30 |
| Captain_Picard | developer for maemo? | 22:30 |
| aSIMULAtor | lol | 22:32 |
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| zerojay | Yeah, she is. | 22:32 |
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| zerojay | She worked on media player. :k | 22:33 |
| zerojay | Lol | 22:33 |
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| ShadowJK | astorm: second page, first row, last 3 columns | 22:33 |
| ShadowJK | it's probably the middle one | 22:33 |
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| * ShadowJK doesnt have enough free ram to load flash | 22:33 | |
| zerojay | She's Nokia's singer.. She can sing in like 8 languages or something. | 22:33 |
| zerojay | Google is your friend. | 22:34 |
| AStorm | Maemo 5 user interface? | 22:34 |
| ShadowJK | yeah | 22:34 |
| AStorm | heh | 22:34 |
| ShadowJK | if that was what you were looking for, ive already forgotten | 22:34 |
| AStorm | I prefer the Nokia N900 one | 22:34 |
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| aSIMULAtor | there are tons of hot chicks who design the maemo 5 ui | 22:35 |
| ShadowJK | the one with grum is my favourite :) | 22:35 |
| aSIMULAtor | like totally hot | 22:35 |
| aSIMULAtor | the wimmin of maemo | 22:35 |
| aSIMULAtor | :P | 22:35 |
| Captain_Picard | zerojay: can she sing in binary ? | 22:35 |
| aSIMULAtor | jk | 22:35 |
| AStorm | albeith both are good | 22:35 |
| Captain_Picard | not only symbian? | 22:35 |
| AStorm | *-h | 22:35 |
| ShadowJK | but the other one is available in HD | 22:35 |
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| wazd_ | ok, app-list selection method - top 10 from each cathegory | 22:42 |
| wazd_ | is it fair?) | 22:42 |
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| Mikycol | Hola | 23:51 |
| Mikycol | Hi | 23:51 |
| Mikycol | Ciao | 23:51 |
| merkuralex_ | lol? | 23:51 |
| Mikycol | :) | 23:51 |
| Mikycol | I ask, a question for you obvious, but I can not find anywhere? | 23:52 |
| zerojay | Ask away. | 23:53 |
| merkuralex_ | never ask if you can ask... just ask :D | 23:53 |
| merkuralex_ | i love how confusing that sounds... | 23:53 |
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| Mikycol | Right | 23:54 |
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| slonopotamus | Or left? | 23:56 |
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| Mikycol | N900 will support microSDXC? | 23:58 |
| SpeedEvil | yes | 23:59 |
| javispedro | Mikycol: no, unless you can outbribe the SD standards group | 23:59 |
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