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| mece | Hello | 01:19 |
|---|---|---|
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| mece | hello? | 01:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | Howdy | 01:23 |
| mece | nice, not all idles :D | 01:23 |
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| GoodStudent | what software other than PC Suite can I use to access and backup my "stopped to appear" contact list? | 01:25 |
| mece | on what system? | 01:26 |
| mece | err.. device I mean | 01:26 |
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| GoodStudent | Nokia N97 | 01:27 |
| GoodStudent | I'm really screwed up | 01:28 |
| GoodStudent | sepcially if I can not get my contacts back | 01:28 |
| mece | no idea. maybe you should try some symbian forums? | 01:28 |
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| GoodStudent | i'm into the symbian channel but doesn't seem like there is any living creatures to answer out there | 01:29 |
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| GoodStudent | all my contact are vanished | 01:29 |
| woglinde | GoodStudent next time make a backup | 01:29 |
| GoodStudent | there won't be next time if I couldn't get the current contacts list. | 01:30 |
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| mece | GoodStudent if you use ovi then your contacts might be saved there. check it. | 01:31 |
| GoodStudent | what is ovi? | 01:32 |
| mece | I on the other hand actually have a maemo sdk related question, so it might be more up this channels alley. | 01:32 |
| mece | GoodStudent http://www.ovi.com | 01:32 |
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| GoodStudent | what about those thired parties softwares like oxygen? | 01:32 |
| mece | I'm a big spotify user, and I thought I'd make a simple despotify client for maemo5 while I wait for my N900. | 01:34 |
| Captain_Picard | im a small spotify user! | 01:36 |
| mece | anyway, I built despotify in the sdk, and turns out that there acutally is a maemo client, maemify that seems to somewhat work in maemo | 01:36 |
| mece | 5 | 01:36 |
| Captain_Picard | nice! | 01:36 |
| mece | but I was wondering, does one get sound from scratchbox? i built despotify in scratchbox/fremantle and it compiled nicely, and I was able to run everything, and the log said that songs were played. | 01:37 |
| mece | but no sound. | 01:37 |
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| mece | no errors either, so it seems that despotify works out of the box, atleast with default and simple client | 01:37 |
| mece | you need a premium account though. | 01:38 |
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| Captain_Picard | why | 01:38 |
| Captain_Picard | do you need a premium account | 01:38 |
| mece | dunno. spotify demands it. despotify doesn't work with free or even daypass accounts | 01:39 |
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| mece | either way, does anyone know if you can get sound from fremantle sdk on scratchbox? | 01:40 |
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| mece | no? Well I'm off anyway. have a good one. | 01:51 |
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| pacopil | online boxing game http://www.kobox.org/kobox-fande-Nourine.html | 01:56 |
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| LiraNuna | =O! | 03:21 |
| LiraNuna | N900 Preorder | 03:21 |
| LiraNuna | $650 o_o | 03:22 |
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| xnt14 | LiraNuna, :P | 03:29 |
| xnt14 | 0.o xD | 03:29 |
| lcukx41 | far too many lcuks | 03:29 |
| xnt14 | :P | 03:29 |
| LiraNuna | will it be subsidized by T-Mobile? | 03:29 |
| xnt14 | ;/nick lcukx43 | 03:29 |
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| lcukx43 | :P | 03:30 |
| *** lcukx43 is now known as xnt14 | 03:30 | |
| xnt14 | ls | 03:30 |
| lcukx41 | lol | 03:30 |
| xnt14 | argh | 03:30 |
| lcukx41 | i know ive been drinking but lol | 03:30 |
| * xnt14 spent way too much time in the terminal today :P | 03:30 | |
| lcukx41 | i finally saw onedotzero in action today :) | 03:30 |
| xnt14 | :P | 03:30 |
| * lcukx41 was blown away | 03:30 | |
| xnt14 | :) | 03:30 |
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| lcukx41 | tiagofalcao[AWAY, fuck off | 03:31 |
| lcukx41 | my god laptop is annoying if you delete whole line it gives a death rattling BEEP | 03:32 |
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| LiraNuna | lcukx41, you can disable PC speaker | 03:33 |
| lcukx41 | yeah? | 03:33 |
| lcukx41 | you mean without ripping it out i hope | 03:33 |
| LiraNuna | haha no | 03:33 |
| lcukx41 | which is my normal course of action | 03:33 |
| LiraNuna | just disable the kernel module | 03:33 |
| lcukx41 | mmm should i try while drunk? | 03:33 |
| lcukx41 | or best to wait till morning | 03:33 |
| javispedro | you can, if you remember your root password :) | 03:34 |
| LiraNuna | rmmod pcspkr | 03:34 |
| lcukx41 | yeah thats easy | 03:34 |
| LiraNuna | sudo rmmod pcspkr | 03:34 |
| lcukx41 | my root password is xnt14smellsofpee | 03:34 |
| javispedro | well, depending on the drunkness I say :D | 03:34 |
| * LiraNuna ssh's and >:Ds | 03:34 | |
| lcukx41 | holy crap | 03:35 |
| lcukx41 | you did it!!!! | 03:35 |
| lcukx41 | thank you | 03:35 |
| LiraNuna | muhuhahahahaha | 03:35 |
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| lcukx41 | now i wont know i pulled the dodgy cord out either | 03:35 |
| javispedro | OH GOD NO | 03:35 |
| javispedro | NOOOOOOOOOOOOOo | 03:35 |
| lcukx41 | normally i can hear that from mars | 03:35 |
| LiraNuna | haha | 03:35 |
| javispedro | http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=2834 :( | 03:35 |
| LiraNuna | lcukx41, linux wins | 03:35 |
| LiraNuna | fatality | 03:35 |
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| lcukx41 | thats not a win, thats a massive fail | 03:35 |
| endorphinum | i am a massive fail ! | 03:36 |
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| lcukx41 | actually i want the keyboard electrified and games turning off | 03:36 |
| lcukx41 | cos its the kids that screw around with it | 03:36 |
| lcukx41 | endorphinum, nahhh | 03:36 |
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| lcukx41 | you cant be any worse than me | 03:36 |
| endorphinum | trbs: :D | 03:36 |
| endorphinum | nah nah! I am the biggest fail of all fails ! | 03:36 |
| lcukx41 | i cant believe i managed to enter the password correct and can seemingly type on this keyboard | 03:36 |
| endorphinum | i cant believe i managed to type and read at the same time ! | 03:37 |
| derf | The problem I have is my laptop beeps on startup before the local initscript runs that rmmods pcspkr. | 03:37 |
| lcukx41 | but thats cos im concentrating and cannot move hands off anyway cos ive got no mouse and i hate touching artificial nipples | 03:37 |
| * javispedro sighs | 03:37 | |
| lcukx41 | derf, thats not a problem | 03:37 |
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| lcukx41 | its just backspace makes it go BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP | 03:37 |
| derf | Well, I think my final solution was to rm -f pcspkr. | 03:37 |
| lcukx41 | when line empty | 03:37 |
| lcukx41 | i normally go with hardware mods | 03:37 |
| derf | pcspkr.ko, that is. | 03:37 |
| lcukx41 | i wouldnt mind it was more reasonable | 03:38 |
| derf | Well, there's also this thing called "visual bell". | 03:38 |
| lcukx41 | is that a picture of george bush? | 03:38 |
| endorphinum | Let me start where i finished this afternoon: anyone in here owning a n810 and willing to test out the latest mojocafe site ? | 03:38 |
| derf | Although that can have its own annoyances if implemented poorly. | 03:38 |
| LiraNuna | <derf> Well, there's also this thing called "visual bell". < that's even more horrible than PC speaker | 03:38 |
| javispedro | endorphinum, I have one, but what do you want to test? | 03:39 |
| lcukx41 | does it blind you | 03:39 |
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| endorphinum | javi: http://m.mojocafe.net | 03:39 |
| lcukx41 | mojocafe is a site of flash widgets | 03:39 |
| LiraNuna | it can trigger epileptic seizure | 03:39 |
| lcukx41 | very nice idea | 03:39 |
| LiraNuna | Either your screenresolution could not be detected or your gadget screen size is not supported by the MOJOCAFE. | 03:39 |
| LiraNuna | wtf | 03:39 |
| LiraNuna | it can't detect 1920x1080? | 03:39 |
| endorphinum | javi: enter 31-nlft as code | 03:39 |
| LiraNuna | fail. | 03:39 |
| lcukx41 | why enter a code | 03:40 |
| luke-jr | endorphinum: Flash = fail | 03:40 |
| derf | Well, the problem I've had with visual bell is not the flashing, but that in some implementations it will freeze all input for multiple seconds if you accidentally hold down a key too long. | 03:40 |
| endorphinum | Lira: LOL - you have to check it with your mobile device | 03:40 |
| javispedro | ah, so I better enable flash | 03:40 |
| derf | But whatever I'm using now doesn't do that. | 03:40 |
| lcukx41 | endorphinum, my laptop is a mobile device | 03:40 |
| lcukx41 | it has 3g broadbnd | 03:40 |
| LiraNuna | endorphinum, never seen a laptop with 1920x1080? | 03:40 |
| endorphinum | luke: i know, i had that discussion allready one year ago. But as no one else developed something similiar i am still depending on Flash :( | 03:40 |
| derf | I can't remember if that's because I configured it properly at some point, or it just didn't suck to begin with. | 03:40 |
| luke-jr | endorphinum: nonsense | 03:40 |
| lcukx41 | endorphinum, :) liqbase | 03:40 |
| javispedro | "Playlist created by John Doe" | 03:41 |
| endorphinum | lcukx: yeah, but the service is mainly mentioned for small mobile devices :D .... gear <= netbooks | 03:41 |
| endorphinum | javi: do you see the full screen clocks ? | 03:41 |
| lcukx41 | but whats up with lettin it be seen.usd on bigger | 03:41 |
| lcukx41 | is it illegal | 03:41 |
| javispedro | yeah | 03:41 |
| javispedro | well | 03:41 |
| luke-jr | lcukx41: liqbase is not an alternative for Flash | 03:42 |
| LiraNuna | anyone saw/used N900 yet | 03:42 |
| javispedro | it just disappeared | 03:42 |
| lcukx41 | luke-jr, why not | 03:42 |
| endorphinum | javi: thanks a lot. sounds better then i thought. | 03:42 |
| lcukx41 | it has vectors and code | 03:42 |
| javispedro | and now it says "Spicing up your device" | 03:42 |
| lcukx41 | and can do pretty much anyw=thing | 03:42 |
| lcukx41 | oh, and its better than flash :P | 03:42 |
| endorphinum | javi: doesnt it stop ? it should only play the clocks | 03:42 |
| lcukx41 | cos it can do fullscreen tear free updating ;) | 03:42 |
| javispedro | endorphinum: there are scroll bars though | 03:42 |
| luke-jr | endorphinum: there is nothing Flash can do that ECMAscript cannot | 03:42 |
| javispedro | it seems you used 800x480 res but the browser window is a bit smaller because of toolbars | 03:42 |
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| luke-jr | lcukx41: it lacks browser support | 03:43 |
| endorphinum | javi: i know. you have to change it manually into full screen. i am still too dumb to develop a browser app for maemo :( | 03:43 |
| lcukx41 | luke-jr, then write a browser in it ffs | 03:43 |
| luke-jr | endorphinum: also, assuming users have their browser maximized = fail | 03:43 |
| lcukx41 | you are thinking the wrong way round ;) | 03:43 |
| javispedro | endorphinum, not only that, but disabling toolbar when fullscreen | 03:43 |
| endorphinum | luke-jr: can ECMAscript assimilate with my brain so that i develop the whole project within 48 hours for maemo ? | 03:43 |
| endorphinum | :D | 03:43 |
| LiraNuna | instead of scaling up, why don't you scale down? | 03:43 |
| lcukx41 | LiraNuna, i am | 03:43 |
| luke-jr | endorphinum: Qt could ;) | 03:43 |
| javispedro | with that, it fills the screen nicely, no scrollbars. | 03:43 |
| lcukx41 | #all liqbase stuff is standalone apps | 03:43 |
| lcukx41 | go see the onedotzeroa= app i just got to see myself today | 03:44 |
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| lcukx41 | onedotzero | 03:44 |
| lcukx41 | its fucking amazing | 03:44 |
| lcukx41 | my app was controlling a massive projected display | 03:44 |
| lcukx41 | its awesome | 03:44 |
| javispedro | endorphinum, so, anything else ? :D | 03:44 |
| endorphinum | you ppl can not imagine how desperatyl i would like to develop a framework based on the "standard" browser but realy... MY BRAIN IS JUST AS SMALL AS MY JINGLE BELLS ARE.... doh *crying* | 03:44 |
| endorphinum | javi: nah thanks a lot mate. That will let me sleep easier now | 03:45 |
| javispedro | want a screenshot? | 03:45 |
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| lcukx41 | http://vimeo.com/6417194 | 03:45 |
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| lcukx41 | javispedro, its better than i thought | 03:45 |
| lcukx41 | its fluid and the app is rock solid | 03:45 |
| lcukx41 | and it runs like a dream on the n900 | 03:46 |
| javispedro | lcuk*, is that a n900 video? :D hope so | 03:46 |
| * javispedro still waiting for vimeo to load | 03:46 | |
| lcukx41 | which, might i add is fucking awesome too (got hands on real one for the first time | 03:46 |
| lcukx41 | hell yeah | 03:46 |
| lcukx41 | much nicer than my prototype | 03:46 |
| * lcukx41 huggles his proto | 03:46 | |
| lcukx41 | i nearly nicked the shiny one :$ | 03:46 |
| lcukx41 | this is gonna kick ass tomorrow night (grand opening of the exhibit | 03:47 |
| lcukx41 | i just have to fix the profanity filter | 03:47 |
| lcukx41 | it ummm blocks "hello" | 03:47 |
| lcukx41 | cos it has hell in it | 03:47 |
| javispedro | and "fk" :) | 03:47 |
| endorphinum | :D | 03:47 |
| lcukx41 | it was fun coming up with the word list | 03:48 |
| javispedro | lcukx41: clbuttic!! | 03:48 |
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| lcukx41 | hahahahahahahahahaha | 03:49 |
| lcukx41 | you read dailywtf too | 03:49 |
| javispedro | one of the few sites I read with full articles in the rss feed | 03:49 |
| javispedro | :) | 03:49 |
| lcukx41 | i go there | 03:49 |
| lcukx41 | i like the coments | 03:49 |
| lcukx41 | the community are ocol | 03:49 |
| lcukx41 | cool even | 03:49 |
| lcukx41 | comments | 03:50 |
| javispedro | (no wonder: they're slightly pro-microsoft) | 03:50 |
| javispedro | ;) | 03:50 |
| lcukx41 | my god i can barely type tonight | 03:50 |
| lcukx41 | doesnt matter | 03:50 |
| lcukx41 | ms has done a great many good tihngs | 03:50 |
| lcukx41 | and kept a lot of people in jobs | 03:50 |
| * lcukx41 will not say a bad word about ms | 03:50 | |
| javispedro | lol today's sidebar wtf about semantic extraction is priceless | 03:51 |
| lcukx41 | lol i didnt see | 03:51 |
| lcukx41 | been too busy getting onedotzero reayd | 03:51 |
| lcukx41 | to the detrement of the playground | 03:51 |
| lcukx41 | it crashes now | 03:51 |
| lcukx41 | often | 03:51 |
| javispedro | http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/09/02/netbase-thinks-you-can-get-rid-of-jews-with-alcohol-and-salt/ | 03:51 |
| lcukx41 | im really upset | 03:51 |
| javispedro | (that was the wtf) | 03:51 |
| javispedro | If you look at the pros of AIDS (yes, it thinks here are pros to having AIDS), it comically lists the “Spanish Civil War.” rofl | 03:52 |
| * lcukx41 facepalms | 03:53 | |
| lcukx41 | is it safe to go walking the streets of london | 03:53 |
| lcukx41 | ive walked the streets of every other city ive been in | 03:53 |
| javispedro | they've tried to steal your n900 twice? no wonder :) | 03:54 |
| lcukx41 | no i stole one | 03:54 |
| lcukx41 | i walked off with it | 03:54 |
| javispedro | well done, we may even accept you in our evil we-dont-have-an-n900 club for that | 03:54 |
| lcukx41 | sermad and karsten were worried my hacker device would intefere lol | 03:54 |
| lcukx41 | i dont have an n900 tho | 03:55 |
| lcukx41 | i nearly do | 03:55 |
| lcukx41 | its like an n899.5 | 03:55 |
| lcukx41 | in its cacoon waiting to emerge | 03:55 |
| lcukx41 | i hope jussi brings enough devices to let me nab one :D | 03:55 |
| lcukx41 | mmmmmmm room services | 03:56 |
| * lcukx41 fell asleep on the train! | 03:56 | |
| lcukx41 | i manage to not fall asleep on the plane or anything | 03:56 |
| * xnt14 shoots jubilee in the head...... | 03:56 | |
| xnt14 | finally, its up.... ;) | 03:56 |
| lcukx41 | im goin walkin | 03:57 |
| lcukx41 | seeing what i can find | 03:57 |
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| lcukx41 | bbiab | 03:57 |
| Macer | holy crap | 04:02 |
| Macer | like writing to the external sd through a usb cable | 04:02 |
| Macer | is topping out the n810 cpu | 04:02 |
| Macer | wtf? | 04:02 |
| Macer | at 2MB/s ? | 04:02 |
| Macer | i should hve just pulled the microsd and shoved it into a damn usb reader | 04:03 |
| endorphinum | ok guys. gotta go - still have some mojos to develop. hugs and thanks for your big support. have a good day a good night a good life. | 04:04 |
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| Macer | hm | 04:07 |
| Macer | maybe it is just the way debian is using the sd? | 04:07 |
| Macer | i'm only getting 5-6MB/s in the adapter on avg | 04:08 |
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| Robot101 | Macer: usb is designed to use as much CPU as possible - Intel made it after all :P | 04:34 |
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| _totic | Hi I have an old N770 how far can I upgrade it? | 04:43 |
| _totic | the OS I mean | 04:43 |
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| GeneralAntilles | OS2008HE or Mer | 04:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | ~mer | 04:46 |
| infobot | somebody said mer was http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer, or on #mer | 04:47 |
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| _totic | oh the knew ones will run on it? | 04:49 |
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| usul | what does the 768 MB "virtual mem" on n900 consist of? slow flash? | 05:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | A swap partition on the 32GB eMMC. | 05:16 |
| usul | ok | 05:17 |
| usul | i hate ppl saying it has 1gb memory | 05:17 |
| javispedro | oh, here even Nokia says it has 1gb RAM. | 05:18 |
| javispedro | so you'd hate Nokia :) | 05:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | Well, Nokia says it has 1GB of application memory. | 05:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | In some locales it's more or less clear about what that means, though. | 05:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's the retarded marketing department being retarded again. | 05:18 |
| usul | fine. ill increase swap size and sell "2GB" versions on ebay for 100eu markup | 05:19 |
| javispedro | only the geeks will care about that, and geeks will know about the issue. | 05:20 |
| usul | np. i can order them as i sell em | 05:21 |
| javispedro | well, gnite :D | 05:21 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Anyway, the eMMC should be pretty quick. | 05:21 |
| usul | 1/2 million views on n900 youtube | 05:24 |
| usul | good | 05:24 |
| ShadowJK | you'd need heavy modifications to linux to make swap on SD/MMC of any type fast | 05:24 |
| usul | you say eMMC is faster than my n810 minisd? | 05:25 |
| usul | top row of keys on n900 looks pressable | 05:27 |
| usul | but it's close | 05:27 |
| * ShadowJK had completely forgotten about top row on n810 | 05:27 | |
| luke-jr | ?? | 05:28 |
| ShadowJK | I guess it just took a few weeks to get used to it | 05:28 |
| ShadowJK | luke-jr, alot of people push on the bottom screen bezel when trying to hit the top row | 05:28 |
| usul | need to orient thumbs vertically | 05:28 |
| luke-jr | I just showed someone my Zaurus SL-C760 the other day. Even after I've grown used to the N810's kb, the Zaurus one is still like a dream in comparison | 05:28 |
| usul | if thumbs kept flat, no chance | 05:29 |
| * ShadowJK still has not seen a device with better keyboard than Nokia E/0 | 05:29 | |
| ShadowJK | E70 | 05:29 |
| ShadowJK | unfortunately the joystick on it is crap and has rendered the device unusable now :) | 05:29 |
| luke-jr | E70 doesn't look too usable | 05:29 |
| luke-jr | http://www.brighthand.com/images/Sharp_Zaurus_R_1_L.jpg | 05:30 |
| luke-jr | look at that sweet kb | 05:30 |
| usul | the screen prevented me from buying a yaurus | 05:30 |
| luke-jr | usul: ... | 05:30 |
| usul | oh the fancy 640x480 zaurus | 05:31 |
| luke-jr | if someone makes a handheld with N900-like specs, with open spec hardware and a Zaurus like kb, I'm buying | 05:31 |
| usul | look at all the space a clamshell buys you | 05:31 |
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| usul | still, a landscape clamshell phone... wouldnt sell | 05:36 |
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| usul | nice job on maemo 5 browser ui | 05:37 |
| divide_b1_zero | how do I check what version of Maemo is currently installed in my system? | 05:37 |
| usul | uname -a | 05:39 |
| divide_b1_zero | oh, thanks :) | 05:40 |
| divide_b1_zero | 47.3 is the latest, right? | 05:42 |
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| usul | mine says 47-3 | 05:55 |
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| divide_b1_zero | great, thanks... | 05:55 |
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| usul | wahha it's Quim on youtube! :) http://youtube.com/watch?v=RP5R-5NX1BE but he doesnt say nuthin :) | 06:00 |
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| usul | oh there he goes :) | 06:01 |
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| GAN800 | Quim is such a creeper in that video. | 06:05 |
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| Firebird | doesn't he say he's taking a picture? and explains the rest of that.... | 06:07 |
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| * usul still has never bought a phone yet :) | 06:19 | |
| usul | page scrolling on n900 browser looks great | 06:20 |
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| HeckleJeckle | has anyone been able to successfully patch and compile Xephyr for ubuntu | 07:07 |
| HeckleJeckle | seem to be missing a step | 07:07 |
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| johnx | HeckleJeckle, why doesn't the packaged version work? what is it missing? | 07:10 |
| HeckleJeckle | JohnX, a known bug that cause Xephyr to crash when clicking on textview areas | 07:11 |
| HeckleJeckle | theres a patch that is reported to work, but I can't get it to compile, thought I might be missing something | 07:12 |
| johnx | did you start with the ubuntu source package and patch that or something else? | 07:12 |
| HeckleJeckle | yes | 07:12 |
| HeckleJeckle | i apt-get source xserver-xephyr and apt-get all necassary dev packages | 07:13 |
| HeckleJeckle | the patch is at: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4570 | 07:13 |
| HeckleJeckle | sorry, meant http://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=21591 | 07:14 |
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| johnx | huh. could you pastebin the part where it fails to build? | 07:14 |
| HeckleJeckle | sure, let me run it atain | 07:14 |
| HeckleJeckle | again | 07:14 |
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| HeckleJeckle | Johnx: | 07:21 |
| HeckleJeckle | xf86DGA.c: In function ‘DGAProcessPointerEvent’: | 07:21 |
| HeckleJeckle | xf86DGA.c:1090: error: ‘de’ undeclared (first use in this function) | 07:21 |
| HeckleJeckle | xf86DGA.c: In function ‘DGAHandleEvent’: | 07:21 |
| HeckleJeckle | xf86DGA.c:1189: error: ‘dgaEvent’ undeclared (first use in this function) | 07:21 |
| HeckleJeckle | xf86DGA.c:1189: error: ‘de’ undeclared (first use in this function) | 07:21 |
| HeckleJeckle | xf86DGA.c:1189: error: expected expression before ‘)’ token | 07:21 |
| HeckleJeckle | xf86DGA.c:1211: error: too many arguments to function ‘DGAProcessKeyboardEvent’ | 07:21 |
| HeckleJeckle | xf86DGA.c:1214: error: too many arguments to function ‘DGAProcessPointerEvent’ | 07:21 |
| johnx | ~pastebin | 07:21 |
| infobot | [~pastebin] A "pastebin" is a web-based service where you can paste anything over 3 lines without flooding the channel. Here are links to a few : http://www.pastebin.com , http://pastebin.ca , http://channels.debian.net/paste , http://paste.lisp.org , http://www.rafb.net/paste | 07:21 |
| fernand0_ | HeckleJeckle, check this ubuntu ppa http://www.murrayc.com/blog/permalink/2009/06/09/xephyr-on-ubuntu-jaunty/ | 07:21 |
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| HeckleJeckle | thanks johnx, i'll learn pastebin next time. Thanks fernand0, that'll work for now! | 07:26 |
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| * lcukx41 waves at johnx | 07:26 | |
| johnx | \o/ @ lcukx41 | 07:27 |
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| lcukx41 | :D i have no idea how or why i am awake | 07:28 |
| lcukx41 | i should technically be sleeping off an excellent successful launch test evening of the onedotzero interactive exhibit | 07:28 |
| lcukx41 | which uses liqbase as its engine :) | 07:29 |
| lcukx41 | johnx, the app ran perfectly from start to finish :) | 07:29 |
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| brbrbr | Matrix has you :) | 07:29 |
| lcukx41 | full battery draining goodness | 07:29 |
| brbrbr | and Maemo ;) | 07:29 |
| johnx | lcukx41, fantastic :D | 07:29 |
| johnx | no real surprise coming from you though ;) | 07:30 |
| johnx | any video? | 07:30 |
| brbrbr | prOn ? | 07:30 |
| lcukx41 | not from last night, but theres example vid somewhere, just a mo | 07:30 |
| lcukx41 | tech porn yeah | 07:30 |
| brbrbr | what i mean :) | 07:30 |
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| lcukx41 | http://vimeo.com/6417194 | 07:31 |
| lcukx41 | johnx i was so proud to see the first ever polished liqbase app :) | 07:32 |
| brbrbr | oh | 07:32 |
| brbrbr | good video | 07:33 |
| * brbrbr horny | 07:33 | |
| lcukx41 | i had developed it almost blind and whilst knew technically it would work and validated all areas as i went along never actually saw it all together | 07:33 |
| lcukx41 | you have only seen a small part of it there :) tis great | 07:33 |
| lcukx41 | you can come down to londons nft southbank and hve a play | 07:33 |
| lcukx41 | its running on nokia n900 | 07:33 |
| johnx | wow. sooo, I assume Nokia had a big hand in this and had been planning to have you do this for a while? | 07:34 |
| johnx | sure as heck wasn't last minute :) | 07:34 |
| lcukx41 | i was asked recently and as you know ive been building the liqbase engine all along | 07:34 |
| lcukx41 | its geared to do fast responsive apps | 07:35 |
| lcukx41 | you only ever see what i can do with it :) i am so proud to finally see what its really capable of | 07:35 |
| lcukx41 | and the hardware on the n900 makes it even better | 07:35 |
| lcukx41 | the accelerometer is amaxing | 07:35 |
| lcukx41 | i never thought i would need/want it | 07:35 |
| lcukx41 | but i can see uses for it in lots of areas | 07:35 |
| lcukx41 | amazing ^ | 07:36 |
| johnx | and all that without even using textured polygons. :D | 07:36 |
| johnx | that's pretty freaking slick | 07:36 |
| lcukx41 | those will come later | 07:36 |
| lcukx41 | have yo useen javispedro going to the core of opengles | 07:36 |
| lcukx41 | :) | 07:36 |
| lcukx41 | i want rotatable liq* apps | 07:37 |
| lcukx41 | and know ill get then with a decent polyfill and texturemapper - which gles can provide | 07:37 |
| lcukx41 | so if i replace the engine underneath all my existing liq* apps should just evolve :) | 07:38 |
| johnx | so how long has this been in the works? | 07:38 |
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| johnx | was this even before the Danish weekend? | 07:38 |
| lcukx41 | i was first contacted about 6-8 weeks ago | 07:38 |
| lcukx41 | no | 07:38 |
| lcukx41 | after | 07:38 |
| johnx | wow. darn short notice, huh? | 07:38 |
| johnx | or were they working on it on their own? | 07:39 |
| lcukx41 | not on this | 07:39 |
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| lcukx41 | ive been working on liqbase for ages, you know that | 07:39 |
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| * lcukx41 ponders - it might be a bit longer | 07:39 | |
| lcukx41 | ive been working solidly on this tho | 07:39 |
| johnx | yeah, but this is some pretty deep changes/enhancements to it isn't it? | 07:39 |
| lcukx41 | making sure its solid and reliable and polished | 07:39 |
| lcukx41 | no | 07:39 |
| lcukx41 | they are standard liq* screens | 07:39 |
| lcukx41 | just with nice graphics | 07:40 |
| johnx | complete with that 3D perspective stuff? | 07:40 |
| lcukx41 | mmm | 07:40 |
| johnx | and accelerometer control? | 07:40 |
| lcukx41 | accelerometer control i had when i was in denmark | 07:40 |
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| lcukx41 | ive been learning about the accel since the wiki page first went up | 07:40 |
| johnx | and is that N900 hooked up to the projector running the whole thing? or is it remote control? | 07:40 |
| lcukx41 | i wrote a tiny liq* widget and have had it on my playground since | 07:41 |
| lcukx41 | just wondering what to use it for | 07:41 |
| lcukx41 | :) | 07:41 |
| lcukx41 | you should see liqflow | 07:41 |
| lcukx41 | its impressive | 07:41 |
| lcukx41 | and runs on n810 too | 07:41 |
| lcukx41 | (tho no accel element0 | 07:41 |
| lcukx41 | liqbase-playground is in extras devel | 07:41 |
| johnx | well, I have a couple accelerometer-enabled input devices here :> | 07:41 |
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| lcukx41 | yeah well make some symlinks and compatible input areas and play | 07:42 |
| radic | qwerty12_N810: you'r here? | 07:42 |
| lcukx41 | on this n899.5 i have here, liqflow is a starfield | 07:42 |
| lcukx41 | and the stars always fall towards earth | 07:42 |
| lcukx41 | down like rain | 07:42 |
| johnx | so that demo with the 3D text isn't even using GL? | 07:42 |
| lcukx41 | you can draw strokes and the stars follow the contours of your stroke | 07:43 |
| lcukx41 | thats not the n900 :) | 07:43 |
| lcukx41 | the n900 is just a control unit | 07:43 |
| johnx | right, that's what I asked a minute ago :P | 07:43 |
| johnx | so what's it running on? | 07:43 |
| lcukx41 | its good, but not that good lol | 07:43 |
| lcukx41 | the display is written in processing | 07:44 |
| lcukx41 | and that preview runs from his laptop | 07:44 |
| lcukx41 | tomorrow and for the few days it will be projected onto the side of the bfp southbank | 07:44 |
| johnx | aaah, so the control point part is liq* and the display part is all processing? | 07:44 |
| lcukx41 | and it will be using some heckabeefy quadcore jobbies | 07:44 |
| lcukx41 | yeah | 07:44 |
| johnx | got it | 07:45 |
| lcukx41 | we talk using a lovely lan broadcast network library | 07:45 |
| lcukx41 | could use the same library for allowing devices to talk on a lan and do gaming etc | 07:45 |
| lcukx41 | udpbased | 07:45 |
| johnx | still, I need to get you some info on the fb format for this little PPC box I have :D | 07:45 |
| lcukx41 | but it happily deals with the transport and data type parsing | 07:45 |
| lcukx41 | heh yeah | 07:46 |
| * lcukx41 would like to see liqbase somewhere other than nXXX and this duffer of a laptop | 07:46 | |
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| JoeBrain | lcukx41: how do you find the performance of Processing? | 07:50 |
| lcukx41 | i dunno | 07:50 |
| lcukx41 | i dont touch it | 07:50 |
| lcukx41 | im less impressed by desktop | 07:50 |
| JoeBrain | Have you tried Adobe AIR applications or whatever? | 07:51 |
| lcukx41 | i said in tmo the other day - i was more impressed at seeing 2 rotating boxes on n10 than i have been at full glorious 3d ondesktop devices | 07:51 |
| lcukx41 | n810 | 07:51 |
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| JoeBrain | ah i see, yeah embedded is fun, but I need to write a desktop app & wasn't sure if Processing would deal with massive data sets well | 07:52 |
| lcukx41 | oh yes | 07:52 |
| lcukx41 | its amazing in that regard | 07:52 |
| lcukx41 | as you see from the video | 07:52 |
| lcukx41 | that was run on his laptop | 07:52 |
| JoeBrain | Missed the link I think :( | 07:52 |
| lcukx41 | http://vimeo.com/6417194 | 07:52 |
| lcukx41 | :) | 07:52 |
| JoeBrain | Thanks :) | 07:52 |
| JoeBrain | Time to go home :) spent too much time in the office, & productivity goes down when I'm on IRC hehe | 07:55 |
| lcukx41 | lol | 07:55 |
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| radic | there are files anywhere else except /home/user that should backuped? | 07:56 |
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| lcukx41 | radic, ? | 07:57 |
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| johnx | radic, reflashing? might want to back up /etc if you want to keep system configuration | 07:59 |
| radic | ok, solved | 07:59 |
| radic | hmm | 07:59 |
| radic | not solved... | 07:59 |
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| lcukx41 | whats problem | 07:59 |
| radic | the backup-tool dosn't work ... | 08:00 |
| lcukx41 | what do you mean | 08:01 |
| radic | it stops with "error occured" | 08:02 |
| lcukx41 | out of space to store ? | 08:02 |
| RST38h | it needs a sacrifice. | 08:03 |
| lcukx41 | first born, or n899.5? | 08:03 |
| RST38h | Actually, I know why it may stop, even if there is enough space. | 08:03 |
| RST38h | lcuk: n899.5 to me, first born to the backup tool. | 08:03 |
| RST38h | radic: If any of the config files you are backing up contains '@' (and modest config usually does) backup will fail. | 08:04 |
| lcukx41 | heh ok | 08:05 |
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| radic | RST38h: no, the @ in the filename was not the problem | 08:13 |
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| RST38h | not in the filename | 08:14 |
| RST38h | in the XML config file | 08:14 |
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| chx | hi. anyone has the full size SD adapter? i try to install it and the mini SD adapter does not click in place. i can feel it going as deep it can and does not click :( | 08:22 |
| lcukx41 | :( chx | 08:23 |
| chx | http://www.remotefactory.com/32gbn810sdSSMetal.html this here. | 08:23 |
| lcukx41 | i have not got one | 08:23 |
| lcukx41 | send a mail to craves1 | 08:24 |
| lcukx41 | im sure he ill help | 08:24 |
| lcukx41 | he will | 08:24 |
| chx | yeah no doubt | 08:24 |
| chx | just hoped someone is here who did this before | 08:24 |
| * lcukx41 likes his hardware mods | 08:24 | |
| lcukx41 | its a bit quiet atm | 08:24 |
| lcukx41 | you could wake em up tho | 08:25 |
| lcukx41 | just offer em a free n900 to the person who gets it working lol | 08:25 |
| zerojayPC | Free N900? Where? | 08:25 |
| lcukx41 | :D | 08:25 |
| lcukx41 | see | 08:25 |
| * zerojayPC gently falls back to sleep/idle. | 08:26 | |
| lcukx41 | theres some at the bfi southbank today | 08:26 |
| lcukx41 | and you can get hold of em and play | 08:26 |
| lcukx41 | tho no doubt there will be big burly guards | 08:26 |
| lcukx41 | and black helicopters | 08:26 |
| lcukx41 | :D | 08:26 |
| lcukx41 | why does google suggest testicular cancer as the first thing when you type "test" | 08:27 |
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| RST38h | because Google cares! | 08:29 |
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| johnx | enlightened self interest: users who die of testicular cancer view far fewer ads | 08:31 |
| RST38h | same amount, I guess, until they die | 08:32 |
| johnx | that's what I said :) | 08:33 |
| johnx | I was purposefully avoiding the past perfect to emphasize the android-like logic involved :P | 08:34 |
| RST38h | ^V^ | 08:34 |
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| johnx | being an english teacher of inquisitive students gives one lots of opportunities to consider *why* we say things the way we do. I recommend it :) | 08:36 |
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| johnx | allo myrtti | 08:40 |
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| myrtti | allo allo | 08:41 |
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| chx | humm the tablet recognized the 32GB card. | 08:42 |
| chx | win. | 08:42 |
| chx | did not click but still. | 08:42 |
| johnx | rockin' :) | 08:42 |
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| RST38h | mirtty | 08:44 |
| aSIMULAtor | huomenta | 08:46 |
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| chx | the N810 audio jack, how can i connect a normal headphone? i presume it's some sort of trick to be able to accomodate a mic and speakers too | 08:50 |
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| chx | or is it a normal 3.5 speaker jack? | 08:50 |
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| chx | http://www.eastmaze.com/Headphone-Headset-Audio-Adapter-and-Mic-for-Nokia-N810-p970.html?tkid=15¤cy=USD i see. | 08:51 |
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| msh_ | normal headphones work | 08:54 |
| RST38h | Anyone knows what STMIA with the empty register list may mean? | 08:55 |
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| RST38h | Oh wait it is simply ARM32 code shown as THUMB | 08:57 |
| RST38h | Forget it | 08:57 |
| chx | sexually transmitted missing in action? that does not sound too bad. | 08:57 |
| * chx runs | 08:57 | |
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| RST38h | Hmmm...omebody seems to be using wrong LDM encoding | 09:00 |
| RST38h | 0xBEFF where 1011L10Rrrrrrrrr is mandated | 09:01 |
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| fernand0_ | :o | 09:03 |
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| newbie002 | Hi, I'm wondering if it would be possible to.. use a flat laser to scan the inside of a room, then associate that room with a gps coord. Then using something like blender super impose images in the model, then have the OS recognise where it is and then display and the rotate the model in coordination of the actual device | 09:09 |
| RST38h | what is flat laser | 09:10 |
| RST38h | ? | 09:10 |
| newbie002 | a laser pointer with a lense that makes a flat line | 09:10 |
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| newbie002 | this ability already exists, mostly to scan in a 3d model | 09:10 |
| newbie002 | what I want is augmented reality | 09:11 |
| Myrtti | newbie002: lidar? | 09:12 |
| tigert | moi Myrtti | 09:14 |
| Myrtti | also, this is a bit broad question for this channel | 09:15 |
| Myrtti | tigert: ehlo | 09:15 |
| RST38h | newbie: the answer is "yes it would be possible but not in this life" | 09:15 |
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| Stskeeps | morning | 09:18 |
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| * tigert likes hdspa | 09:20 | |
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| * Stskeeps would too but needs to find a better data plan in .pl | 09:26 | |
| newbie002 | Myrtti: not familiar with lidar, I'll look into it. I don't know maemo at all, | 09:27 |
| newbie002 | I just found out about the n900, and ordered one | 09:27 |
| newbie002 | what I would like to do is super impose a green line over the corners and edges of a room | 09:28 |
| Myrtti | newbie002: Radiohead - H | 09:29 |
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| newbie002 | ? | 09:30 |
| newbie002 | a band? | 09:30 |
| Myrtti | newbie002: Radiohead - House of Cards | 09:30 |
| newbie002 | I don't know to what your reffering, perhaps a music video? | 09:30 |
| newbie002 | I don't watch any tv, ever since I learned about wtc7. the boob-tube is off | 09:30 |
| Myrtti | http://code.google.com/creative/radiohead/ | 09:33 |
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| MaceN8x0 | good morningish | 10:23 |
| Proteous | hagalagalagahag | 10:23 |
| MaceN8x0 | uhm | 10:23 |
| Proteous | heh | 10:23 |
| Proteous | I mean, mornin | 10:23 |
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| MaceN8x0 | oh | 10:23 |
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| Proteous | don't read jerkcity I guess | 10:23 |
| MaceN8x0 | must have been speaking ukranian | 10:24 |
| MaceN8x0 | :) | 10:24 |
| Proteous | just typing on my outdated n97 | 10:24 |
| Proteous | *sniff* | 10:24 |
| MaceN8x0 | outdated? | 10:24 |
| MaceN8x0 | :) | 10:24 |
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| MaceN8x0 | didnt they release it like a year ago? | 10:25 |
| Proteous | heh | 10:25 |
| MaceN8x0 | my n810 is older than that and i use it 10x more than my G1 | 10:25 |
| MaceN8x0 | didnt they take steps backwards with N97? | 10:26 |
| MaceN8x0 | like... | 10:26 |
| MaceN8x0 | got rid of 3D accel | 10:26 |
| Proteous | my n810 gets a lot of use as a podcaast playback device | 10:26 |
| MaceN8x0 | and other stuff? | 10:27 |
| MaceN8x0 | i watch mp4s on mine all the time | 10:27 |
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| MaceN8x0 | i think it does a good job of playing video | 10:27 |
| MaceN8x0 | 16G is quite a bit of space for it too | 10:27 |
| Proteous | thr n97 does better | 10:28 |
| MaceN8x0 | yeah | 10:28 |
| MaceN8x0 | my N95 did great video | 10:28 |
| MaceN8x0 | i miss it | 10:28 |
| Proteous | well it can playback higher rez/bitrate video | 10:28 |
| MaceN8x0 | too bad att had a penis in nokia's ass | 10:28 |
| Proteous | heh | 10:28 |
| MaceN8x0 | yeah | 10:28 |
| MaceN8x0 | i didnt have to scale down on the n95 | 10:29 |
| Proteous | what happend to your n95 | 10:29 |
| MaceN8x0 | sold it after i got rid of att | 10:29 |
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| Proteous | ah | 10:29 |
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| MaceN8x0 | tmob has a different 3G freq | 10:29 |
| Proteous | who are you with now | 10:29 |
| * timeless_mbp sighs | 10:29 | |
| Proteous | yeah | 10:29 |
| * timeless_mbp kicks someone | 10:29 | |
| MaceN8x0 | wasnt worth it in only edge | 10:29 |
| Myrtti | N95 ♥ | 10:30 |
| Proteous | I use my n97 in edge mode | 10:30 |
| MaceN8x0 | yeh | 10:30 |
| MaceN8x0 | awesome phone | 10:30 |
| MaceN8x0 | Proteous, i couldnt do it | 10:30 |
| Proteous | don't really do much web browsing | 10:30 |
| MaceN8x0 | yeah but once you get used to the speed | 10:31 |
| MaceN8x0 | you simply cant go back | 10:31 |
| Proteous | and a constant ssh connection on 3g eats battery fast | 10:31 |
| MaceN8x0 | but att 3G was horrible | 10:31 |
| MaceN8x0 | yeah heh | 10:31 |
| MaceN8x0 | i really just use my G1 as a modem | 10:31 |
| Proteous | heh | 10:31 |
| MaceN8x0 | are N900s for sale now? | 10:31 |
| Proteous | no | 10:31 |
| Proteous | just preorder | 10:31 |
| MaceN8x0 | i want to buy one if it supports tmob | 10:32 |
| MaceN8x0 | damn | 10:32 |
| Proteous | it does | 10:32 |
| MaceN8x0 | the preorder curse | 10:32 |
| Proteous | it is tmoble 3g freq | 10:32 |
| MaceN8x0 | does that mean they wont be available for a year? | 10:32 |
| MaceN8x0 | heh | 10:32 |
| MaceN8x0 | so ive heard | 10:32 |
| Proteous | despite much nashing of teeth of att customers | 10:32 |
| lcukx41 | i hope not | 10:32 |
| MaceN8x0 | but it would suck to spend 700 | 10:32 |
| MaceN8x0 | fuck att | 10:32 |
| lcukx41 | i finally saw a real n900 last night | 10:33 |
| MaceN8x0 | i hope they go bankrupt | 10:33 |
| lcukx41 | makes me n899.5 look poor in comparison | 10:33 |
| lcukx41 | the build quality on those things is hot (H) | 10:33 |
| Proteous | n899.5? | 10:33 |
| MaceN8x0 | n899.5? | 10:33 |
| MaceN8x0 | :) | 10:33 |
| lcukx41 | :) | 10:33 |
| Proteous | lol | 10:33 |
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| lcukx41 | well its got the innards of an n900 but not a pretty shell | 10:33 |
| MaceN8x0 | lcuk2, how is battery? | 10:33 |
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| Proteous | ah | 10:34 |
| lcukx41 | electrifying | 10:34 |
| Proteous | ... | 10:34 |
| lcukx41 | i dunno, im running a firmware build which is almost a year old | 10:34 |
| MaceN8x0 | 3D? | 10:34 |
| MaceN8x0 | opengles right? | 10:34 |
| lcukx41 | i still need access to the public sdk repository | 10:34 |
| MaceN8x0 | heh | 10:34 |
| MaceN8x0 | im anxious to buy one | 10:35 |
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| lcukx41 | everyone is | 10:35 |
| lcukx41 | i also got hands on an n97 mini last night too | 10:35 |
| MaceN8x0 | although, i am still waiting on my touchbook preorder ;) | 10:35 |
| MaceN8x0 | haha | 10:35 |
| lcukx41 | they are strange beasts | 10:35 |
| MaceN8x0 | which is why i dont really care much for preordering | 10:35 |
| Proteous | I just need to find someone who wants to buy a slightly used n97 | 10:35 |
| Myrtti | oh lord, I'm trying to fight my urge to preorder N900 | 10:36 |
| Myrtti | GAAAAAARRRHHH | 10:36 |
| lcukx41 | i still wanna know when we hack those n97s and get maemo/mer on em | 10:36 |
| MaceN8x0 | i sold my n95 for 150 a month ago | 10:36 |
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| lcukx41 | it would be quite a coup | 10:36 |
| MaceN8x0 | heh | 10:36 |
| MaceN8x0 | ironic though | 10:36 |
| Proteous | bah, the n97 cpu is too slow | 10:36 |
| lcukx41 | well, linux is meant to work everywhere | 10:36 |
| MaceN8x0 | nokia would probably applaud it | 10:36 |
| lcukx41 | it seems odd we dont taret our brothers and sisters | 10:37 |
| MaceN8x0 | lies! | 10:37 |
| Proteous | compared to the n900 | 10:37 |
| lcukx41 | some in nokia may applaud it, others will think its a virus | 10:37 |
| MaceN8x0 | n900 is a beast | 10:37 |
| lcukx41 | and a civil war will erupt | 10:37 |
| MaceN8x0 | lcuk2, haha | 10:37 |
| MaceN8x0 | grr | 10:37 |
| RST38h | lcuk: no mmu -> no linux | 10:37 |
| lcukx41 | rly? | 10:38 |
| lcukx41 | that bad | 10:38 |
| RST38h | or very limited pseudo linux at least | 10:38 |
| lcukx41 | i thought the primary reason was resolution | 10:38 |
| * lcukx41 doesnt care about that tho | 10:38 | |
| lcukx41 | i just want tux on other nokia devices | 10:38 |
| MaceN8x0 | use gentoo | 10:38 |
| MaceN8x0 | haahhahahah | 10:38 |
| Proteous | just n900 for me plz | 10:39 |
| lcukx41 | haha | 10:39 |
| MaceN8x0 | wow was that a week of my life i will never get back | 10:39 |
| MaceN8x0 | gentoo was fail | 10:39 |
| lcukx41 | i just had most expensive breakfast ever | 10:39 |
| * timeless_mbp rotfl | 10:39 | |
| lcukx41 | £14.95 | 10:39 |
| Proteous | sure blame it on the distro | 10:39 |
| MaceN8x0 | Proteous, damn straight | 10:39 |
| lcukx41 | why not, everyone else does | 10:39 |
| Proteous | how much is that in US dollars? | 10:40 |
| lcukx41 | about 6 gazillion | 10:40 |
| Proteous | hah | 10:40 |
| MaceN8x0 | was it a good breakfast? | 10:40 |
| Proteous | was it good at least | 10:40 |
| lcukx41 | no | 10:40 |
| Proteous | ... | 10:40 |
| MaceN8x0 | fail | 10:40 |
| MaceN8x0 | haha | 10:40 |
| RST38h | "...and the Tux kept coming to him for three nights. And on the third night, he finally succumbed to Tux and lay with Him, and felt that it was good." | 10:40 |
| MaceN8x0 | airport? | 10:40 |
| lcukx41 | hotel | 10:40 |
| Proteous | bow chicha chicha bow | 10:40 |
| MaceN8x0 | ah | 10:40 |
| MaceN8x0 | same deal | 10:40 |
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| MaceN8x0 | overpriced and overrated | 10:41 |
| lcukx41 | mornin lbt | 10:41 |
| lcukx41 | i wouldnt normally know | 10:41 |
| lcukx41 | but my name wasnt on the list | 10:41 |
| MaceN8x0 | airports are bad for that | 10:41 |
| lcukx41 | :D unlike last night | 10:41 |
| MaceN8x0 | at ohare the food sucks | 10:41 |
| lcukx41 | i went to a club with a big list and when i said my name she didnt even have to check the list | 10:41 |
| lcukx41 | :D | 10:41 |
| MaceN8x0 | and is not a good representation of the city | 10:41 |
| lcukx41 | big underground club with loads of people and the onedotzero identity on the wall being played with | 10:42 |
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| lcukx41 | test run for the big one tonight | 10:42 |
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| lcukx41 | it worked with only one flaw | 10:42 |
| lcukx41 | the profanity filter wanted to prevent "hell" | 10:42 |
| lcukx41 | so no1 could write hello | 10:42 |
| * lcukx41 facepalmed | 10:42 | |
| Proteous | lol | 10:42 |
| tigert | :D | 10:43 |
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| RST38h | EHLO would work though | 10:43 |
| lcukx41 | :D lol | 10:43 |
| lcukx41 | i bet HELLO wouldv too | 10:43 |
| Proteous | so would OMGHI2U! | 10:44 |
| * lcukx41 doesnt see the point in profanity filter | 10:44 | |
| *** mauso has quit IRC | 10:44 | |
| lcukx41 | but its a massive interaction - probably visible from roads somewhere | 10:44 |
| lcukx41 | but the word list comes from some site somewhere, so theres probably a zillion ways round it | 10:44 |
| * Proteous fu*************************'s | 10:45 | |
| lcukx41 | fu is blocked :P | 10:45 |
| lcukx41 | so no fun | 10:45 |
| lcukx41 | oh, no its not | 10:45 |
| lcukx41 | there was one similar | 10:45 |
| RST38h | does it work in unicode? | 10:45 |
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| lcukx41 | if you can enter unicode into liqbase then im sure it will get past the filter | 10:45 |
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| Proteous | character encoding exploits ftw | 10:46 |
| RST38h | then it is easy to fool | 10:46 |
| lcukx41 | but since liqbase doesnt support unicode | 10:46 |
| lcukx41 | thats a bit difficult | 10:46 |
| RST38h | just use cyrillics for EPTOADHKXCBM | 10:46 |
| lcukx41 | :D | 10:46 |
| lcukx41 | all hail the hypntoad | 10:46 |
| lcukx41 | o | 10:46 |
| lcukx41 | :D | 10:46 |
| Proteous | £uck | 10:47 |
| RST38h | fuᐠ| 10:48 |
| RST38h | here you go | 10:48 |
| lcukx41 | you dont have to tell me | 10:48 |
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| RST38h | Hehe: http://gizmodo.com/5355230/microsoft-to-best-buy-staff-heres-why-linux-sux | 10:49 |
| Proteous | û | 10:51 |
| Proteous | üsshmf | 10:51 |
| Proteous | the text encoding for this terminal is wack | 10:52 |
| MaceN8x0 | RST38h, hahaha | 10:53 |
| Proteous | sûck | 10:53 |
| MaceN8x0 | that is awesome | 10:54 |
| Proteous | yeah, software updates are hard in linux | 10:55 |
| RST38h | and no Windows Live | 10:55 |
| MaceN8x0 | Linux is safer than Windows. Fact. INCORRECT | 10:55 |
| MaceN8x0 | hahahaaha | 10:55 |
| Proteous | heh | 10:55 |
| MaceN8x0 | uhm | 10:55 |
| MaceN8x0 | doesnt ubuntu and like... debian | 10:55 |
| MaceN8x0 | and rh | 10:55 |
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| MaceN8x0 | have software updating? | 10:56 |
| MaceN8x0 | like the same way as win? | 10:56 |
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| Myrtti | MaceN8x0: er, better. | 10:56 |
| MaceN8x0 | heh | 10:56 |
| RST38h | windows software updates are somewhat of a mess | 10:57 |
| MaceN8x0 | well, it is odd that ms would go through the trouble | 10:57 |
| gomiam | RST38h: s/somewhat/all/ :P | 10:57 |
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| MaceN8x0 | is linux seriously that much of a threat | 10:58 |
| MaceN8x0 | figured they would target osx | 10:58 |
| gomiam | MaceN8x0: yes, because it changes the nature of the game | 10:58 |
| RST38h | gomiam: well they are not completely crazy | 10:58 |
| gomiam | OS X they can compete against, it's a private company with propietary software you have to pay for | 10:58 |
| gomiam | s/private// | 10:58 |
| infobot | gomiam meant: OS X they can compete against, it's a company with propietary software you have to pay for | 10:58 |
| MaceN8x0 | i dont see how | 10:59 |
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| MaceN8x0 | linux is years old | 10:59 |
| MaceN8x0 | and still has a very small share | 10:59 |
| Veggen | Mac: Simple. "Linux" can use years to improve, and not go bankrupt. | 10:59 |
| glass_ | MaceN8x0: think of it this way, you got money and budget and people who have to do some pr to some way or else they'll be sacked eventually | 10:59 |
| glass_ | as to why "target" anything | 10:59 |
| Myrtti | there's no Mac OS X netbook | 10:59 |
| gomiam | Linux they can't fight against. If they bought all the companies selling Linux distirbutions, there would still be distributions to use. | 10:59 |
| Veggen | Canonical, RedHat et al can go bankrupt, but their code will live. | 10:59 |
| Myrtti | they don't need to target it | 10:59 |
| MaceN8x0 | Veggen, fair point | 11:00 |
| glass_ | advertisement targetting isn't that well thought of usually, especially when a company doesn't really need need it.. | 11:00 |
| MaceN8x0 | i mean but to go store to store | 11:00 |
| Meiz_n810 | http://quaoar.ww7.be/ms_fud_of_the_year/569458-microsoft-attack-linux-retail-level-probably.html xDD | 11:00 |
| MaceN8x0 | sending a rep with a misinformed biased questionaire | 11:00 |
| glass_ | the rep might well have made up the stuff himself | 11:01 |
| Meiz_n810 | see the "Windows works with more devices" picture of that arcticle | 11:01 |
| RST38h | what percentage of desktops run linux? | 11:01 |
| MaceN8x0 | seems petty | 11:01 |
| Veggen | Actually, for many slightly curious people who has barely heard about Linux, I guess that sales pitch *will* work. | 11:01 |
| Veggen | that's the reason we need to refute such things. | 11:02 |
| MaceN8x0 | Veggen, still seems petty | 11:02 |
| Veggen | sure. | 11:02 |
| gomiam | Veggen: actually, I think if someone starts talking about something I don't know and tells me not to use it, I might get curious about it and test it | 11:02 |
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| RST38h | gomiam: never ever taste cyanides | 11:02 |
| glass_ | besides, sales people themselfs don't quite often have much technical knoweledge-. if they had they wouldn't need to do shit sales work | 11:02 |
| RST38h | got it? | 11:02 |
| MaceN8x0 | haha | 11:03 |
| gomiam | RST38h: I already did. Fortunately, the bitter almond I ate didn't have enough to do more than give me some stomach ache :D | 11:03 |
| MaceN8x0 | glass, so so true | 11:03 |
| MaceN8x0 | although some people get a kick out of sales | 11:03 |
| RST38h | gomiam: bigger amounts are deadly, do not consume! | 11:03 |
| gomiam | RST38h: I don't need to try that. Small quantities are disturbing enough :D | 11:04 |
| RST38h | Mace: but the do not work on the floor of Best buy | 11:04 |
| glass_ | hehe yeah | 11:04 |
| glass_ | selling fighter planes for example, that wouldn't be so sucky i suppose | 11:04 |
| Veggen | gomiam: you're not a typical user. | 11:04 |
| MaceN8x0 | i like the way they categorize it as | 11:04 |
| MaceN8x0 | "such as an alternate os like linux" | 11:05 |
| gomiam | Veggen: yeah, everyone tells me I'm weird. I think it's something having to do with everybody else, of course :P | 11:05 |
| MaceN8x0 | that was magical | 11:05 |
| MaceN8x0 | sublime | 11:05 |
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| RST38h | glass: Selling fighter planes to Saudis | 11:05 |
| MaceN8x0 | as if windows is what is meant to be run on a system | 11:05 |
| RST38h | glass: Good food, camel races in the desert, expensive cars, private jet... =0 | 11:05 |
| Veggen | gomiam: As in - most people in here might be like you, but your average windows user has been taught to not be curious and just accept for very many years. | 11:06 |
| gomiam | Veggen:I know, I was just joking about it :) | 11:06 |
| inz | rst38h, joys of polygamy... | 11:06 |
| Veggen | I did a Windows-to-Ubuntu-conversion yesterday. Target user was a prime target: Non-advanced, 5-6 well-defined tasks, all of which can be done in Ubuntu. | 11:06 |
| gomiam | Veggen: yup, those are usually the easiest ones | 11:07 |
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| Veggen | I rarely do things like that, but my girlfriend was about to clean up her Vista computer, and she's not that profient in Windows either. And I figure as long as you'll still have to help them, you're better off giving them Linux :) | 11:08 |
| gomiam | and if you manage to somewhat resemble the Windows desktop look, you've already gone most of the way too. | 11:08 |
| gomiam | Veggen: I try to be more subrepticious | 11:08 |
| RST38h | inz: ...and bestiality... | 11:08 |
| gomiam | I install Open Office | 11:08 |
| gomiam | Infra Recorder | 11:08 |
| gomiam | Firefox and Thunderbird | 11:08 |
| gomiam | so they get used to not having to either pay or wonder whether a new update will get Microsoft all WGA on their asses :) | 11:09 |
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| gomiam | unfortunately, none of them want Pidgin yet, but I'm still working on that (maybe I should install aMSN) | 11:10 |
| gomiam | s/want/wants/ | 11:11 |
| infobot | gomiam meant: unfortunately, none of them wants Pidgin yet, but I'm still working on that (maybe I should install aMSN) | 11:11 |
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| gomiam | anyway, time to try and find out which DLLs are missing at the XP laptop I'm fixing... | 11:13 |
| gomiam | ttyl | 11:13 |
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| vladovg | hi | 11:50 |
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| vladovg | having question | 11:51 |
| wazd | Hello all :) | 11:51 |
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| vladovg | di exsist app theth control the cpu clock | 11:52 |
| wazd | Palm is surprisingly stupid to release smartphone without WiFi | 11:52 |
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| vladovg | tested power manager and its not working fine | 11:52 |
| RST38h | moo wazd | 11:53 |
| RST38h | who needs wifi when you have got an all you can eat 3g contract? | 11:53 |
| vladovg | new model | 11:53 |
| vladovg | ? | 11:53 |
| vladovg | or pre | 11:53 |
| vladovg | ay need | 11:53 |
| vladovg | :) | 11:53 |
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| vladovg | wazd | 11:55 |
| vladovg | ? | 11:55 |
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| wazd | RST38h: well, to surf at home for example :) | 12:00 |
| wazd | vladovg: new "Pixi" | 12:00 |
| wazd | RST38h: I don't think that WiFi chip costs loads of cash | 12:01 |
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| lcukx41 | vladovg, what device are you wanting cpu control on | 12:07 |
| lcukx41 | balls | 12:07 |
| florian | good morning | 12:08 |
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| lbt | morning | 12:09 |
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| X-Fade | $_MIDCOM->relocate("event/list_registrations/{$this->_event->guid}/"); | 12:12 |
| X-Fade | Oops ;) | 12:12 |
| lcukx41 | vladovg, what device are you wanting cpu control on | 12:13 |
| lcukx41 | mornin again lbt | 12:13 |
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| lcukx41 | hi X-Fade | 12:13 |
| lcukx41 | and florian | 12:13 |
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| lbt | hey lcukx41 | 12:13 |
| * lcukx41 is doomed | 12:13 | |
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| * lbt is building Qt using the OBS acceleration (native gcc running in armel qemu generating armel code) | 12:14 | |
| lcukx41 | heh | 12:14 |
| lcukx41 | johnx and i were talking about ps3 earlier | 12:14 |
| RST38h | BTW, how will Clutter live with Qt? I though Clutter was a GLib-dependent "technology"? | 12:14 |
| lcukx41 | it would be good to use all 8 or so cores of it for qt builds ;) | 12:14 |
| lbt | RST38h: clutter is for Gtk AFAIUI | 12:15 |
| lbt | Qt has an animation framework and GL integration | 12:15 |
| lbt | which I think would be the native way | 12:15 |
| RST38h | So, Clutter will die by Q4/2010? | 12:15 |
| Corsac | clutter will die by qt4 | 12:16 |
| lbt | well, Moblin uses it | 12:16 |
| lcukx41 | i thought clutter was standalone | 12:16 |
| lcukx41 | then had a gtk bit added on | 12:16 |
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| RST38h | lcuk: It seems to be all dependent on GLib | 12:16 |
| RST38h | GObjects etc | 12:16 |
| thp | well, depending in GLib isn't really the same as depending on Gtk+ | 12:16 |
| lbt | Qt and GObjects co-exist | 12:16 |
| RST38h | C programmers desperately trying to simulate C++ in C | 12:16 |
| thp | even symbian has GLib, I think | 12:16 |
| lbt | http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2006/02/24/qt-and-glib/ | 12:16 |
| andre | clutter is standalone afaik. that's why there's e.g. a clutter-gtk package | 12:17 |
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| RST38h | lbt: Yes but is there point in that? | 12:17 |
| andre | and you can plug qt into the glib mainloop | 12:17 |
| RST38h | andre: the quesiton is though: will harmattan still use clutter? | 12:17 |
| lbt | RST38h: the point is choice really | 12:17 |
| andre | don't know... | 12:17 |
| lcukx41 | it may still be a viable backend because it nicely handles talking to gles | 12:18 |
| RST38h | lbt: Screw choice, the point is consistent software platform | 12:18 |
| andre | and i just saw for clutter 0.9.8 at least that glib is listed as a dep | 12:18 |
| andre | if http://www.clutter-project.org/docs/clutter/unstable/building-clutter.html is still correct | 12:18 |
| lbt | RST38h: change is hard. Deal with it. | 12:18 |
| RST38h | lbt: generally, it is not a good idea to pull whatever framework you see into your system | 12:18 |
| lbt | equally it's not good to use it " 'cos we always have " | 12:19 |
| thp | RST38h: well, it is a good idea if the alternative is to reinvent the wheel | 12:19 |
| RST38h | lbt: exactyly | 12:19 |
| RST38h | thp: If I understand things correctly, Qt offers some 3D framework on its own | 12:19 |
| lbt | yes - openGL | 12:20 |
| lcukx41 | so does gtk - it has 3d borders on boxes! :D :p | 12:20 |
| lbt | and it can use GL as the native 2D rendering engine too | 12:20 |
| RST38h | Does Clutter offer anything on top of OpenGL? I have looked at some Clutter examples and left unimpressed | 12:20 |
| lbt | <grin> lcukx41 | 12:20 |
| lbt | RST38h: Clutter is a 'fancy effects' framework | 12:21 |
| lcukx41 | i always expected wow effects in visual basic when i selected bordertype 3d | 12:21 |
| lbt | that uses GL to get speed | 12:21 |
| RST38h | lbt: But you can do the same by writing a few functions using OpenGL, can't you? | 12:21 |
| lbt | yes | 12:21 |
| lbt | but openGL is hard | 12:21 |
| lbt | it's a 1990's | 12:21 |
| lbt | API | 12:21 |
| lcukx41 | bad hair and shoulderpads? | 12:21 |
| RST38h | You mean 2000's APIs are all sparkling and not hard at all? :) | 12:22 |
| lbt | I like shoulderpads | 12:22 |
| RST38h | Or do you mean that OpenGL does not involve XML and JavaScript? :) | 12:22 |
| lbt | RST38h: I mean it was invented to map to the graphics pipelines on SGIs AFAIK | 12:22 |
| lbt | We now have MVC type concepts | 12:23 |
| lcukx41 | its 3d, has transforms and rotations and lighting | 12:23 |
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| lbt | which wouldn't have been in vogue back then | 12:23 |
| wazd | lol | 12:23 |
| lcukx41 | ahh vladovg dont go anywhere | 12:23 |
| lcukx41 | vladovg, what device are you wanting cpu control on | 12:23 |
| wazd | Flashback for iPhone costs fucking 5 bucks | 12:23 |
| wazd | How they still use this thing I wonder | 12:24 |
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| lcukx41 | wazd, why do i want to know how much an app costs | 12:24 |
| lcukx41 | hes a fucker | 12:24 |
| * lcukx41 wont ask him again | 12:24 | |
| wazd | lcukx41: well, I play same thing on m800 for free :) | 12:25 |
| wazd | n800* | 12:25 |
| lcukx41 | is it free on clamidia? or whatever the illicit appstore is called | 12:25 |
| wazd | lcukx41: I just don't understand why people are blind to see that they're paying twice for one thing | 12:26 |
| lcukx41 | not blind | 12:26 |
| wazd | lcukx41: Cydia I think :) | 12:26 |
| lcukx41 | simply easier to just use a bit of credit getting that | 12:26 |
| lcukx41 | than fucking with tonnes of stuff | 12:26 |
| wazd | lcukx41: dunno, but mabe there's an emu in it, yep | 12:26 |
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| lcukx41 | people like a simple life | 12:27 |
| lcukx41 | and if it costs them $5 to just go "meh!" and play something | 12:27 |
| lcukx41 | why should we complain | 12:27 |
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| lbt | wazd: time is valuable | 12:28 |
| lbt | and, amazingly enough, not everyone finds playing with linux on their phone "fun" | 12:28 |
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| lbt | which I think is step 2 | 12:28 |
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| RST38h | wazd: iPhone itself is $800+ | 12:30 |
| * lbt is going to buy some SW when he gets the N900... just for the novelty value :) | 12:30 | |
| RST38h | office software? | 12:30 |
| lbt | haven't decided yet... | 12:30 |
| lbt | I'd like to buy some GPL sw | 12:31 |
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| lbt | hmm qmake is slooooow | 12:31 |
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| * RST38h will sell lbt some GPL software | 12:34 | |
| RST38h | What GPL software would you like to buy? =) | 12:34 |
| lbt | excellent - what's the value proposition that makes it worth buying from you? | 12:34 |
| gomiam | lbt: support, at most :P | 12:34 |
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| RST38h | lbt: I have got the most GPL software on the planet! | 12:35 |
| RST38h | lbt: And a powerful search engine to find it, at www.google.com! | 12:35 |
| lbt | RST38h: so you're not very focused then | 12:35 |
| gomiam | RST38h: and what you don't have you can get :D | 12:35 |
| gomiam | lbt: RST38h is very focused... on money :D | 12:35 |
| RST38h | lbt: On the contrary, we have got multiple departments, each focused on a separate class of GPL software | 12:36 |
| RST38h | lbt: What kind of GPL software would you like to acquire today? | 12:36 |
| lbt | contact management SW that links my N900 contact DB to my openLDAP inetOrgPerson one | 12:37 |
| lbt | since you ask | 12:37 |
| jrocha | I read about some initiative a while ago where you could "buy" GPL software you value and the money would go to help third-world countries | 12:38 |
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| lcukx41 | in other news, jrocha declared himself a 3rd world country | 12:40 |
| jrocha | lcukx41, funny guy! | 12:41 |
| lcukx41 | lbt, :) i like the idea of commissioning open source software | 12:41 |
| lcukx41 | that way, the dev gets some money and incentive to complete a project | 12:41 |
| lcukx41 | is your ldap stuff existing already | 12:41 |
| lcukx41 | nd would it need tweaking to fit n900 | 12:41 |
| RST38h | lbt: Please, use our search engine and www.google.com, then come back and make an order | 12:43 |
| lbt | lcukx41: I've held off on the ldap idea for now | 12:44 |
| RST38h | There isn't any money in open source software, unless you take somebody else's open source software, repackage and sell it (see Redhat, etc) | 12:44 |
| lcukx41 | lbt, the principle is there tho | 12:44 |
| lbt | RST38h: not true!! | 12:44 |
| lbt | lcukx41: yes indeed | 12:44 |
| RST38h | lbt: Support business model does not work, sorry | 12:44 |
| lbt | RST38h: the biggest OSS revenue space is consulting/bespoke installations | 12:45 |
| RST38h | Because users very soon find out that they can get free support from the forums | 12:45 |
| lcukx41 | bleugh | 12:45 |
| lbt | RST38h: rubbish :) | 12:45 |
| RST38h | lbt: And how does this revenue compare with let us say Microsoft revenue? | 12:45 |
| lcukx41 | i cant see busy people trolling a forum | 12:45 |
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| RST38h | lcuk: they do not troll the forum | 12:45 |
| lcukx41 | digging through then | 12:45 |
| RST38h | lcuk: they google for answer and usually find it. in the remaining 5% of cases, they ASK. | 12:45 |
| lcukx41 | unfortunate word | 12:45 |
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| lbt | RST38h: max revenue isn't everything... | 12:46 |
| lcukx41 | "how is babby formed" | 12:46 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Believe me it is not more difficult than having to contact support | 12:46 |
| lbt | reliable revenue OTOH | 12:46 |
| RST38h | lbt: OSS support revenue is neither big nor reliable | 12:46 |
| lbt | OSS is part of a service model | 12:46 |
| wazd | RST38h: http://content.foto.mail.ru/mail/wi/_blogs/i-79.jpg | 12:46 |
| RST38h | lbt: Because at any moment of time somebody else can take your product and start supporting it | 12:47 |
| lbt | OSS support is a vague term | 12:47 |
| lbt | yes, they can | 12:47 |
| lbt | so people are paying for *your* support.... and if you suck... tough | 12:47 |
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| lbt | however the value you offer can be very very high | 12:47 |
| lcukx41 | wazd, wtf | 12:47 |
| RST38h | lbt: wazd: Oh shit the arrows the arrows!!! | 12:47 |
| lcukx41 | that hurts my brain | 12:47 |
| RST38h | lbt: Ok, let us leave vague and relative terms at peace | 12:48 |
| wazd | RST38h: well, at least "Á" is not under sym :) | 12:48 |
| RST38h | lbt: And consider a specific case | 12:48 |
| lbt | RST38h: just for a minute or 2 then | 12:48 |
| RST38h | wazd: Yu and the hard sign are though | 12:48 |
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| RST38h | lbt: You write a piece of software and sell it. You get revenue until someone else writes a better, cheaper, or free piece of software for similar purpose. | 12:49 |
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| RST38h | lbt: Now, you write a piece of software and let people use it for free. Do you get revenue from that? No. | 12:49 |
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| RST38h | Next step | 12:50 |
| lcukx41 | actually still not true. people can and do continue to purchase more expensive software if the perception of quality exists | 12:50 |
| lbt | RST38h: yes | 12:50 |
| RST38h | lbt: You sell a piece of software and ALSO sell support. | 12:50 |
| lcukx41 | how long did it take linus to goto git? did he not have a pay for source control before?> | 12:50 |
| lbt | yes, he paid with his soul | 12:50 |
| RST38h | lbt: Because you are the only one having access to the source code, you can provide better support for your software than the other guy, so you get "insurance" that nobody will steal your support business | 12:51 |
| lbt | seriously, they got bitten by "tie-in" | 12:51 |
| Myrtti | cappuccino ice cream ♥ | 12:51 |
| lbt | RST38h: me, me, me | 12:51 |
| RST38h | lbt: Result: reliable revenue (unless you totally fuck up on support quality) | 12:51 |
| lbt | which is why a business won't buy from you | 12:51 |
| lcukx41 | mmm Myrtti | 12:51 |
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| RST38h | lbt: Business buys a lot of commercial software | 12:51 |
| lbt | you present me with a win-lose scenario | 12:51 |
| RST38h | lbt: And support for it too | 12:51 |
| lbt | I'm not arguing that it doesn't work | 12:52 |
| RST38h | lbt: I present you with a scenario where YOU, the developer win | 12:52 |
| lbt | just that it isn't optimum | 12:52 |
| RST38h | lbt: Let us now consider the OSS alternative | 12:52 |
| lbt | OSS is not about software | 12:52 |
| lbt | it is about service | 12:52 |
| RST38h | lbt: You give software for free but charge for support. First of all, you will notice that in order ot make as much money as in the first case, you have to charge MORE for support. | 12:52 |
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| lbt | and that is where you miss the entire point | 12:53 |
| jrocha | RST38h, if you charge for support AND for the source, your users number is likely to be lower than if you just give away the source code | 12:53 |
| RST38h | lbt: Yes, we are talking 'service" now. Support is service. | 12:53 |
| lbt | no-one buys software | 12:53 |
| RST38h | lbt: really? :) | 12:53 |
| lbt | they buy functionality and service | 12:53 |
| _berto_ | well, I'm as a costumer don't like the idea of depending solely on the author to give support to a particular piece of software | 12:53 |
| RST38h | Ok, let me finish with concrete example first ok? | 12:53 |
| lbt | no, printing a memo is service | 12:53 |
| RST38h | THEN we will talk about service | 12:53 |
| lbt | or writing a report | 12:53 |
| lbt | they are services | 12:53 |
| RST38h | you think so but not the customer | 12:53 |
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| lbt | no, the customer thinks so too | 12:54 |
| RST38h | Customer buys a product. In a box. The product does something for him. | 12:54 |
| lbt | they usually specify software | 12:54 |
| lbt | but they want a service | 12:54 |
| RST38h | lbt: You are leading discussion in a different direction | 12:54 |
| _berto_ | a product + a dependency on the vendor | 12:54 |
| lbt | yes, i know | 12:54 |
| RST38h | lbt: So let me shortcut to that example again | 12:54 |
| lbt | that's because the economic model of OSS | 12:54 |
| lbt | is not boxes of SW | 12:54 |
| jrocha | RST38h, if you're software is open, you'll get a large number of users and you'll be able to offer support to those interested, and unless you screw up big time, customers will always prefer the support from the person who wrote the software and knows it better than anyone | 12:55 |
| lbt | it is provision of business services | 12:55 |
| RST38h | lbt: And just summarize for you that "free software, paid support" model does not work because you no longer have exclusivity as support provider | 12:55 |
| lbt | in a way that lets the business win | 12:55 |
| lbt | software is for the benefit of the developers | 12:55 |
| RST38h | lbt: so, neither reliable big revenue stream | 12:55 |
| jrocha | RST38h, yes it works! | 12:55 |
| RST38h | lbt: Ok, now your "service" stuff | 12:55 |
| lbt | your arguments all focus on the benefit to the SW developer | 12:55 |
| RST38h | lbt: Of course | 12:56 |
| lbt | which is where you fail | 12:56 |
| RST38h | lbt: Because I am a sw developer | 12:56 |
| _berto_ | the garage when they repair my car don't have exclusivity as support provider either | 12:56 |
| glass_ | theres no saying that the guy who wrote the sw knows it better than someone else | 12:56 |
| lbt | yes I know | 12:56 |
| lbt | this is the problem | 12:56 |
| _berto_ | s/when/where/ | 12:56 |
| infobot | _berto_ meant: the garage where they repair my car don't have exclusivity as support provider either | 12:56 |
| RST38h | lbt: That I am a software devloper? | 12:56 |
| jrocha | RST38h, like I said, unless you screw up for real, customers are gonna choose you to pay for support over someone who "learned" about the software but didn't write it | 12:56 |
| lbt | you are not thinking of your customer | 12:56 |
| lbt | you are not looking to benefit them | 12:56 |
| RST38h | lbt: Well, if everybody just used software there would not be anybody to write it | 12:56 |
| lbt | you are looking to benefit you | 12:56 |
| RST38h | lbt: I am looking ot make money by benefitting my customers | 12:56 |
| lbt | seriously | 12:56 |
| _berto_ | it also happens that companies pay developers to write free software | 12:56 |
| glass_ | customers always prefer sw that doesn't actually need any support | 12:57 |
| lbt | yes, that's alllowed | 12:57 |
| RST38h | lbt: If you skip on the "money" part, you will just be doing work for free | 12:57 |
| lbt | but your business should be based on benefitting them | 12:57 |
| lbt | no it should be based on value | 12:57 |
| RST38h | lbt: My business should be based on making money. | 12:57 |
| lbt | you see "tie-in" as a good thing | 12:57 |
| RST38h | lbt: Otherwise it is charity | 12:57 |
| lbt | Q: for who? | 12:57 |
| RST38h | lbt: For myself. | 12:57 |
| lbt | exactly | 12:57 |
| glass_ | as long as the sw makes money for the customer, he can pay to make it better.. | 12:58 |
| lbt | I see it as a -ve for the customer | 12:58 |
| *** zap has quit IRC | 12:58 | |
| lbt | so do they | 12:58 |
| jrocha | RST38h, you're business mind lives in the 60s, software is not fish, you don't sell it by the Kg | 12:58 |
| RST38h | lbt: Sorry, but if you create a business you do it to make money for yourself | 12:58 |
| lbt | I understand your fear | 12:58 |
| lcukx41 | write the open source software because YOU the #1 customer wants it, if others feel it would benefit them after that and want to offer you money to alter and/or support them in it, that is the benefit and bonus | 12:58 |
| lbt | yes, don't dispute that | 12:58 |
| jrocha | s/you're/your | 12:58 |
| RST38h | What fear? | 12:58 |
| lbt | [10:51] <RST38h> lbt: Because you are the only one having access to the source code, you can provide better support for your software than the other guy, so you get "insurance" that nobody will steal your support business | 12:58 |
| lbt | ^^ that fear | 12:59 |
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| RST38h | lbt: This is fear? | 12:59 |
| lbt | yes | 12:59 |
| _berto_ | yes it is | 12:59 |
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| Myrtti | this is sparta | 12:59 |
| lbt | you are worried that someone is better than you | 12:59 |
| _berto_ | :) | 12:59 |
| _berto_ | exactly | 12:59 |
| lbt | they're not | 12:59 |
| lbt | have no fear | 12:59 |
| RST38h | lbt: No. I am worried about keeping my revenue stream intact | 12:59 |
| lbt | go boldly into the GPL my son | 12:59 |
| lbt | yes | 12:59 |
| lbt | through defence | 12:59 |
| Myrtti | luke, come to the dark side | 12:59 |
| lbt | not through merit | 12:59 |
| RST38h | Oh, shit, he is proselytizing now | 13:00 |
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| lbt | ignore that - being silly - sorry | 13:00 |
| _berto_ | I said it before, the guys that fix my car don't have the exclusivity to do it | 13:00 |
| _berto_ | yet they make money | 13:00 |
| Myrtti | caek? | 13:00 |
| RST38h | lbt: have you considered that customers may choose different support sources for reasons different from the quality or knowledgeavility? | 13:00 |
| lbt | me too - the guys who fix my car are not the cheapest | 13:00 |
| jrocha | RST38h, you clearly don't understand Free Software and misunderstanding something creates fear! | 13:00 |
| lbt | RST38h: yes - don't you wan them to | 13:01 |
| RST38h | lbt: As in, the other syupport source (like internet forum) is free and you charge money? | 13:01 |
| _berto_ | internet forum is free? | 13:01 |
| lbt | RST38h: and when they reach a size where the business can't risk ad-hoc forums | 13:01 |
| _berto_ | will the guys at a forum write code for me? | 13:01 |
| lbt | then they come to you | 13:01 |
| RST38h | lbt: Not really, they won't | 13:01 |
| _berto_ | does nokia depend on an internet forum when they need to adapt gtk+ for the n900 ? | 13:01 |
| RST38h | lbt: They will hire an IT guy who will keep it running by consulting forums | 13:02 |
| lbt | no, too expensive | 13:02 |
| lcukx41 | RST38h, your closed software could be challenged any day by an open source alternative. most of the time you would have to go on the defensive | 13:02 |
| RST38h | lbt: Not really | 13:02 |
| lbt | dedicated IT resource costs | 13:02 |
| lcukx41 | with oss gpl :) its great because you share and build together | 13:02 |
| RST38h | lbt: Because the same guy will keep running the rest of infrastructure | 13:02 |
| *** filip42 has quit IRC | 13:02 | |
| lbt | yes, and he'll write OSS sw | 13:02 |
| lbt | in fact he may be you | 13:02 |
| RST38h | lcuk: That is not the point though | 13:02 |
| lbt | hired by the company | 13:02 |
| lbt | to manage the OSS sw | 13:03 |
| lbt | essentially | 13:03 |
| lbt | what's the difference? | 13:03 |
| lbt | he's hired to code OSS isn't he? | 13:03 |
| RST38h | lcuk: The point, again, is that if you intend to make money, doing job for free is not a good way to make money | 13:03 |
| lcukx41 | in a way it is - if you had your calculators as your revenue stream, it would be pretty sickening to have an oss model come up and replace it | 13:03 |
| _berto_ | who's talking about doing job for free? | 13:03 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Not really. It is life. | 13:03 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Something else comes up, you move on | 13:03 |
| lbt | exactly _berto_ | 13:04 |
| lcukx41 | but if both were open source yo ucan still have your revenue stream, and you get to include the same improvements your opponent added | 13:04 |
| RST38h | lcuk: No, you cannot have your revenue stream | 13:04 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Because you are not selling what you make, you are giving it away for free | 13:04 |
| X-Fade | That's why a lot of OSS apps have bad/no documentation :) | 13:05 |
| lbt | RST38h: you do have a point. Traditional SW models do work. However, you should really look to understand where OSS fits around them. Otherwise your traditional model has a *huge* risk | 13:05 |
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| lcukx41 | no, you are ensuring it is not lost if you go under | 13:05 |
| jrocha | RST38h, customers often pay for customization/improvements they need, they don't come to a developer and say: well, so, if you could just write me this library until the end of the month, you'll be the coolest open source guy! | 13:05 |
| X-Fade | To charge on the service/maintenance ;) | 13:05 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Again, insuring it not being lost is not my goal. | 13:05 |
| _berto_ | hey, it's amazing that we're having this discussion on #maemo | 13:05 |
| _berto_ | :-) | 13:05 |
| jrocha | _berto_, :D | 13:06 |
| lcukx41 | RST38h, is any of your software oss? | 13:06 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: as said previously, you can't make money on service because it becomes a commodity, everyone can offer service on an OSS product | 13:06 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Yea | 13:06 |
| * lcukx41 smiles :D | 13:06 | |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Sure, but the developer knows the software best. | 13:06 |
| lbt | you can make money on service | 13:06 |
| RST38h | lcuk: But I am not making money on OSS software | 13:06 |
| lbt | most industries do | 13:06 |
| _berto_ | well, I am | 13:06 |
| msh_ | the best solution - sell a device, not software ;) | 13:06 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Only making money on commercial software | 13:06 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Once software gets complicated, knowledge is what is giving you the edge. | 13:06 |
| lbt | and knowledge is the basis of service | 13:07 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: Not really. When everyone has the source, everyone can learn, again, service commodotized. | 13:07 |
| _berto_ | it looks like we're discussing about theory | 13:07 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Sure, but not everybody does :) | 13:07 |
| _berto_ | i'm developing free software, and hell, I can tell you that i'm not working for free | 13:07 |
| jrocha | RST38h, all the open source software I wrote for free, I wrote it because I wanted to do it! I never wrote anything for anybody for deliberately for free because that'd be doing a job, and in my job, I get paid | 13:07 |
| lbt | RST38h: you can't learn all the source | 13:07 |
| lcukx41 | omfg the database has gone down again, HELPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP | 13:07 |
| RST38h | berto: We are discussing hard facts vs OSS theory | 13:07 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: And if you are the developer, you decide the roadmap. | 13:07 |
| lcukx41 | "sorry, gotta spent 3 months in code review" | 13:07 |
| _berto_ | hard facts is that OSS is paying my bills | 13:07 |
| _berto_ | but now I got to go back to work | 13:07 |
| _berto_ | ;) | 13:08 |
| lbt | heh | 13:08 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: No, anyone can fork and decide his own roadmap (see mySQL) | 13:08 |
| _berto_ | *get | 13:08 |
| jrocha | _berto_, and me too | 13:08 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Yeah, so? Plenty of business sell services. | 13:08 |
| jrocha | my code was compiling :P | 13:08 |
| RST38h | Someone is paying your bills to write OSS, right? | 13:08 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: And make a lot of money. | 13:08 |
| RST38h | Is OSS paying that guy's bills though? | 13:08 |
| lbt | jrocha: luckily Qt is *big* | 13:08 |
| jrocha | lbt, I'm not working on Qt | 13:09 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: I would prefer not to repeat what I said earlier | 13:09 |
| lbt | jrocha: I am! | 13:09 |
| lbt | and it's buildign | 13:09 |
| X-Fade | And people pay for speed of implementation, they can do it themselves but that would take twice the time. | 13:09 |
| _berto_ | I'm not the person to care about that guy's bills, he'll probably know better than me whether OSS is paying his bills or not | 13:09 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: But the summary is: when everyone can offer the same or similar service, it becomes a commodity, and you can't make much money from it | 13:09 |
| X-Fade | So then it is money well spent. | 13:09 |
| jrocha | lbt, sorry for that :P (just kidding) | 13:09 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: There are so many things you can specialize on. | 13:09 |
| lbt | heh - at least it's now cross-compiling and not using emulated g++ | 13:10 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: We are talking about exactly one thing: supporting OSS package X. | 13:10 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Not everybody will do the same. | 13:10 |
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| lbt | RST38h: "when everyone can offer the same or similar service, it becomes a commodity, and you can't make much money from it" .... ain't that the truth | 13:10 |
| lbt | gues what OSS is doing | 13:10 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Ok, give me an example of an app which is 'over'supported then? | 13:10 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: theoretically, yes. in practice, everyone does the same, just cheaper, until it loses any point | 13:10 |
| lbt | SalesForce | 13:11 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: mySQL | 13:11 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: QT | 13:11 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: Gtk+ | 13:11 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: Apache | 13:11 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: I know plenty of people making a living of those projects. | 13:11 |
| RST38h | More? | 13:11 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: Getting a salary supporting an Apache installation or writing an app? | 13:11 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: Or actually supporting other people who use these projects, fo rmoney? | 13:12 |
| RST38h | Becuase the first guy is a USER and the second is in business of SUPPORT | 13:12 |
| * lbt is right now looking at a £400/day job supporting OSS | 13:12 | |
| RST38h | OSS benefits users, we know that already | 13:12 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: If you take mysql for example. They work in tuning, setting up replication schemes, query optimization whatever. | 13:13 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: This is called a database administrator. He uses mySQL | 13:13 |
| lbt | when a business spends less on licenses they can spend more on service | 13:13 |
| lbt | this is part of the model | 13:13 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: Does the original author of mySQL make money supporting mySQL though? And how much? How does it compare with what Oracle makes on its db? | 13:13 |
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| X-Fade | RST38h: They made a few 100M ;) Bad example ;) | 13:14 |
| RST38h | lbt: Business will not spend on software OR on service, if it can. | 13:14 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: By selling the whole thing to Sun? And what does Sun make on it? | 13:14 |
| RST38h | Anyway, lunch time | 13:15 |
| lbt | l8r | 13:15 |
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| X-Fade | RST38h: Sun just buys things for the fun of it, it seems. | 13:16 |
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| _berto_ | I wouldn't have expected this discussion on #maemo :) | 13:17 |
| lbt | _berto_: why not? | 13:18 |
| _berto_ | feels like one of those arguments we used to have back in the 90s | 13:18 |
| lbt | I expect more of it as more non-OSS people get drawn in | 13:18 |
| X-Fade | _berto_: RST38h is our local advocate of the devil. That is why we love him so much :) | 13:18 |
| _berto_ | lbt: you're probably right, but still ... :) | 13:19 |
| lbt | a lot of new maemo users will need to be hand-held into the OSS world | 13:19 |
| lbt | (excuse the pun!) | 13:19 |
| * lcukx41 was an oss virgin just 18 months ago | 13:20 | |
| * lbt recalls | 13:20 | |
| lcukx41 | it was marius and rmyou who convinced me :) | 13:21 |
| lcukx41 | marius with a strong argument relating to diving in and trying to fix | 13:21 |
| lcukx41 | and rm wore me down through constant pestering | 13:22 |
| ccooke | lcukx41: and do you find it worth it? ;-) | 13:22 |
| lcukx41 | ccooke you will not find a stronger advocate of OSS than myself now :) | 13:24 |
| * ccooke grins | 13:24 | |
| lcukx41 | i believe wholeheartedly in it to the extent of walking out of my job when given an ultimatum | 13:24 |
| ccooke | Impressive | 13:25 |
| zerojayPC | must be nice. | 13:25 |
| lcukx41 | yes. i still have no idea where my next pay cheque is coming from | 13:25 |
| lcukx41 | but i will find a way :) | 13:25 |
| ccooke | lcukx41: Good luck, then | 13:25 |
| lcukx41 | zerojayPC, it was the hardest decision ive ever made | 13:25 |
| lcukx41 | i worked there for 10 years | 13:25 |
| zerojayPC | I bet it was. I hope it turns out for the best. | 13:26 |
| * lcukx41 has everything crossed | 13:26 | |
| lcukx41 | it has unbound me from certain limitations now :) | 13:26 |
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| lcukx41 | hi crashanddie \o | 13:27 |
| crashanddie | hey lcukx41 | 13:27 |
| crashanddie | lcukx41: we need to touch base for tomorrow | 13:27 |
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| crashanddie | hi all o/ | 13:27 |
| lcukx41 | im meeting simon at about 6pm i think | 13:27 |
| lcukx41 | when are you around | 13:27 |
| crashanddie | 6PM tonight? | 13:28 |
| lcukx41 | tomorrow | 13:28 |
| crashanddie | phew | 13:28 |
| lcukx41 | tonight im going to the onedotzero opening | 13:28 |
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| crashanddie | wanna meet up for beers? | 13:28 |
| lcukx41 | was at a massive party lastnight with an idoor test | 13:29 |
| lcukx41 | and its fucking impressive | 13:29 |
| crashanddie | hehe | 13:29 |
| lcukx41 | when | 13:29 |
| crashanddie | so you're around london and you don't even come and say HI/ | 13:29 |
| crashanddie | ? | 13:29 |
| crashanddie | I'm offended | 13:29 |
| mgedmin | apple makes doors now? | 13:29 |
| lcukx41 | i got here, picked up by a car taken to party | 13:29 |
| crashanddie | mgedmin: nice | 13:29 |
| lcukx41 | came back crashed | 13:29 |
| lcukx41 | mgedmin, :) hiya - just mentioned you up there | 13:29 |
| mgedmin | good morngrmblh | 13:29 |
| lcukx41 | crashanddie, my hotel room has bed in different timezone to the wardrobe | 13:29 |
| crashanddie | heh | 13:29 |
| crashanddie | which hotel you at? | 13:29 |
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| lcukx41 | a thistle somethin or other | 13:30 |
| lcukx41 | im not due anywhere till about 2 - you allowed out to play for a bit | 13:30 |
| crashanddie | anyway | 13:30 |
| crashanddie | we can do lunch if that works for you | 13:31 |
| crashanddie | I wanted to shoot off to HMV to buy a PS3 | 13:31 |
| crashanddie | but will have to do tonight I guess | 13:31 |
| lcukx41 | pm me address ill get some maps up and see where im meant to be | 13:31 |
| lcukx41 | no can do tonight | 13:31 |
| lcukx41 | v heavy night | 13:31 |
| crashanddie | lcukx41: no, I meant I'll have to do the PS3 tonight | 13:32 |
| lcukx41 | ahh lol | 13:32 |
| lcukx41 | when you get ps3 help lbt to compile qt on it | 13:32 |
| crashanddie | lcukx41: 117 Waterloo Road, Waterloo Business Centre, just ask for Sebastian at the airhead | 13:32 |
| crashanddie | lcukx41: nha, getting a slim one, no Linux on it anymore | 13:32 |
| crashanddie | Sebastian from ActivIdentity | 13:33 |
| lcukx41 | lemme dig up some maps then | 13:33 |
| zerojayPC | crashanddie: Yeah, no Linux on the slim sucks. :/ | 13:33 |
| crashanddie | it's right in front of the Waterloo train station, literally 3 minutes walk from BFI, opposite the Fire Station Pub | 13:33 |
| crashanddie | zerojayPC: yeah well | 13:33 |
| lcukx41 | crashanddie, you are talking in alien | 13:34 |
| crashanddie | zerojayPC: had the phat PS3 and never got 'round to installing Linux on it | 13:34 |
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| crashanddie | lcukx41: number 117, postcode se1 8ul | 13:34 |
| zerojayPC | crashanddie: I set up my PS3 Linux as a emulator box, complete with a scaler program that runs on the SPUs to offload the burden from the CPUs. | 13:35 |
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| crashanddie | lcukx41: found the place? | 13:39 |
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| crashanddie | lcukx41: ? | 13:44 |
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| crashanddie | Maybe he's f'd off and come to pick me up already. | 13:44 |
| RST38h | <yawn> | 13:45 |
| ccooke | Hmm. So it's looking like nobody with preorders will have an n900 by the summit? | 13:48 |
| johnx | only people with five-fingered "pre-orders" :> | 13:49 |
| RST38h | who knows... | 13:49 |
| * RST38h quickly cuts the sixth finger off. | 13:49 | |
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| crashanddie | why is that? | 13:49 |
| johnx | RST38h, been hanging around old nucular power plants? :) | 13:50 |
| ShellEvil | Run quickly off with it while throwing 599e over your shoulder - and it's legal. | 13:50 |
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| RST38h | johnx: prophetic crystal balls come at a price, yes | 13:50 |
| crashanddie | I didn't know you wore bling bling ;) | 13:51 |
| RST38h | Meanwhile, the Tentacled One seemingly decided not to boil its unch: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/09/09/climate_change_not_warmer/ | 13:51 |
| RST38h | s/unch/lunch | 13:51 |
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| johnx | RST38h, I figured having mine bronzed was enough, but wow ... crystal | 13:51 |
| RST38h | johnx: for gazing, you know... | 13:52 |
| johnx | "gaze deeply into my crystal balls" | 13:52 |
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| _berto_ | btw, in case you didn't see it, here's a video taken with the N900 camera: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABwNnpK8eeo | 13:53 |
| johnx | _berto_, keen. thanks for the link | 13:54 |
| * ShellEvil sighs. | 13:54 | |
| ShellEvil | Not _bad_ - I just wish the normal lack of shutter artifacts weren't there. | 13:55 |
| ShellEvil | (when the camera is panning rapidly - the top of the frame is exposed first - so you get skew to the right when panning right | 13:56 |
| frals | you sure thats the nokia n900 and not the wistron n900z that the user uploaded another video off at the same time? | 13:56 |
| RST38h | camera looks ok so far | 13:56 |
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| RST38h | (also, tigert seems to be real good at photography) | 13:57 |
| _berto_ | frals: no idea | 13:57 |
| _berto_ | yes, tigert is good | 13:57 |
| crashanddie | lcuk2: I'm disappointed | 14:00 |
| crashanddie | lcuk2: just told the VP to f off because I was having lunch with you | 14:00 |
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| ccooke | Hmm | 14:05 |
| * ccooke notes that none of the wikipedia articles on the tablets mention the five device plan | 14:05 | |
| RST38h | So? | 14:05 |
| X-Fade | ccooke: There is no 5 device plan ;) | 14:06 |
| ccooke | So it's an interesting fact that's omitted. | 14:06 |
| X-Fade | ccooke: 5 steps, yes. | 14:06 |
| ccooke | X-Fade: okay, point | 14:06 |
| X-Fade | ccooke: Who knows, maybe there will be 10 devices in step 4 :) | 14:06 |
| ccooke | X-Fade: Bad wording, yes. Sorry. | 14:07 |
| X-Fade | ccooke: Nokia morph could be step 5 ;) | 14:07 |
| wazd | X-Fade: I think you've just spoiled secret strategy :D | 14:07 |
| johnx | ccooke, also, in their development process at least they skipped a release, so I'm not sure if looking back and trying to piece together the steps so far is helpful | 14:07 |
| ccooke | RST38h: So I'm bored. Anyone know when Nokia first mentioned the plan? If I can find that, I'll update the articles with the information. | 14:08 |
| X-Fade | ccooke: At least at the summit last year. | 14:08 |
| wazd | ccooke: it was long time ago, in a galaxy far away | 14:08 |
| ccooke | X-Fade: it was mentioned well before then | 14:08 |
| ccooke | I remember reading about it before I received my n810, which was preordered | 14:09 |
| ccooke | but that's the first time I really paid any attention to the devices | 14:09 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: Even 5-step thing is not set in stone. It was a cool figure of speen jaaksi came up with at some point | 14:09 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: So, they are free to interpret it any way they like. | 14:10 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Sure. | 14:10 |
| RST38h | For example, by calling the first Harmattan device part of step #4, and making something new for step #5 | 14:10 |
| ShellEvil | I think step 4 is to give everyone who knows what a kernel is a free one. | 14:10 |
| RST38h | ShellEvi: No. | 14:10 |
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| ShellEvil | Squirrels will be _way_ confused. | 14:11 |
| RST38h | Nobody cares whether you know what kernel is. That was a misunderstanding. | 14:11 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Yes, like I said. Maybe even 10 devices. | 14:11 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: Well, here is what I heard from Murtazin and a few other sources: | 14:11 |
| ShellEvil | RST38h: I know - that was an attempted joke :) | 14:11 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: There is going to be one more Fremantle device by the end of 1Q2010 | 14:12 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: And a Harmattan device in Q3/Q4 2010 | 14:12 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: As we know at least two device numbers (RX-56 and RX-71) that gotta be them I guess | 14:12 |
| wazd | RST38h: Eldar sometimes trying to attract more attention than he really deserves :) | 14:12 |
| RST38h | wazd: Yes, he imagines a lot | 14:12 |
| wazd | RST38h: See his last quote bout Samsung :) | 14:12 |
| RST38h | wazd: Maybe he did see something nice | 14:13 |
| frals | any link to the Q1 -10 info? | 14:13 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: On further plans, Murtazin says there are plans for 12-15 devices based on Maemo | 14:13 |
| wazd | RST38h: well, I can say "Maemo 5 devices will face tough competition in 2035" :D | 14:13 |
| ZogG | is there any chance that once nokia would support multitouch | 14:13 |
| X-Fade | Eldar is all over the map. Sometimes he has something, sometimes he speculates really hard. | 14:13 |
| johnx | wazd, from neural implants | 14:13 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: but I guess that in this case he must have been imagining things as wazd says | 14:13 |
| ccooke | ZogG: Doesn't look likely on the current platform. | 14:13 |
| ZogG | =\ | 14:14 |
| RST38h | wazd: From spinal interfaces ! | 14:14 |
| ShellEvil | ZogG: It'll happen - soon is the question. | 14:14 |
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| ShellEvil | ZogG: most multitouch systems have other issues. | 14:14 |
| X-Fade | ZogG: Why would you use multitouch anyway? | 14:14 |
| ZogG | as i understand it has apple patent things | 14:15 |
| frals | i have yet to see a need for multitouch on a phonedevice :+ | 14:15 |
| X-Fade | Multitouch is nice when you sit down, not really when you are on the move. | 14:15 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: He really thinks of himself as a great analytic, so whatever he says has to be taken critically | 14:15 |
| glass_ | ZogG: the apple patents are not exactly valid or enforceable to ban multitouch from others | 14:15 |
| wazd | RST38h: I think from energy spheres that will conquer the Earth :) | 14:15 |
| X-Fade | Also pinching without obscuring the underlying image is hard ;) | 14:15 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: But he also knows a lot of facts or half-facts or rumor-facts | 14:15 |
| glass_ | ZogG: and plenty of mt stuff coming/out from others, in media players and such | 14:15 |
| * frals goes back to reading "The design of everyday things" | 14:15 | |
| ShellEvil | Multitouch - if it cold detect the touching finger - would be awesome. | 14:15 |
| RST38h | wazd: hypnotoad will conquer earth | 14:15 |
| ShellEvil | A finger for zoom-in, zoom-out, ... | 14:15 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Yeah, I'm sure he has some lines to people who tell him things. | 14:16 |
| RST38h | wazd: And declare itself the prophet of the great Cthulhu | 14:16 |
| wazd | Nokia has 3G patents, I think they can make a deal with Apple if they want :) | 14:16 |
| X-Fade | ShellEvil: Check the nokia patent for detecting fingers on the back of a device. | 14:16 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: just put damn dpad on the back. | 14:16 |
| X-Fade | ShellEvil: Some nice things can be done with that too. | 14:17 |
| ShellEvil | X-Fade: when was that granted? | 14:17 |
| X-Fade | ShellEvil: about a year ago. Was on engadget too. | 14:17 |
| RST38h | Yea transparent 800x480 screens with touch screen on the back =) | 14:17 |
| * ShadowJK thougnt n900 was step 4 :-) | 14:17 | |
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| ShellEvil | I remember noting that would be a cool feature in 2007 sometime on #openmoko | 14:17 |
| * ShellEvil stabs obvious patents. | 14:17 | |
| * ShadowJK wants eye-implant, goggles, or projector | 14:17 | |
| ccooke | ShadowJK: They've said it is... | 14:17 |
| wazd | Retinal projectors will rule the gallaxy :) | 14:18 |
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| wazd | safe for eyes, super small, bright, can be used as agumented interface | 14:18 |
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| X-Fade | gestures in front of the front facing camera is also an option btw. | 14:19 |
| ShellEvil | wazd: only if the lens of the projector covers the projected object in the field of view. | 14:19 |
| X-Fade | You could do some multitouch like things without even touching the device.. | 14:19 |
| ShadowJK | CPU intensive :) | 14:20 |
| crashanddie | OpenCL ftw | 14:20 |
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| ShellEvil | CPU is cheaper every year though. | 14:20 |
| X-Fade | This one is fun too: http://www.intomobile.com/2008/01/31/nokias-virtual-keyboard-patent-application-forget-on-screen-keyboards-try-on-desk-keyboards.html | 14:20 |
| ZogG | i waqs on phone, sorry | 14:20 |
| lardman | crashanddie: ping | 14:20 |
| wazd | ShellEvil: you have 2 eyes, remember?) | 14:20 |
| ShadowJK | on-desk keyboards? Like the one sold on thinkgeek? | 14:20 |
| lardman | lcuk2: ping | 14:20 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: Would you also like huge cubical starships laid with green LEDs with that? | 14:20 |
| crashanddie | lardman: pong | 14:20 |
| ShadowJK | (laser projecting keyboard onto desk) | 14:21 |
| ZogG | but multitouch is a good thing not only for use but to make device more popular | 14:21 |
| lardman | crashanddie: you about tomorrow late afternoon for beer then? | 14:21 |
| X-Fade | ShellEvil: No, it uses the camera to show alternative reality ;) | 14:21 |
| ShadowJK | RST38h, no they can be other shapes than cubical too | 14:21 |
| ZogG | more people buy - better support | 14:21 |
| ShadowJK | spherical, for example | 14:21 |
| RST38h | Laser projected keyboards have not caught up... | 14:21 |
| ShellEvil | X-Fade: oh | 14:21 |
| crashanddie | lardman: yeah, sure | 14:21 |
| X-Fade | ShellEvil: So the keyboard is overlayed on the image on your screen. | 14:21 |
| ZogG | and it's nice, althougth execpt to work with photos i don't see any use for now for multitouch | 14:21 |
| X-Fade | ShellEvil: You use the camera to see where your fingers are and guide them to the right spot. | 14:22 |
| RST38h | ZogG: You do not understand things! | 14:22 |
| crashanddie | lardman: got any place you would prefer to meet up? | 14:22 |
| ZogG | maybe | 14:22 |
| RST38h | ZogG: Mighty iPhone has multitouch and capacitive screen | 14:22 |
| ZogG | that's why i ask =) | 14:22 |
| crashanddie | lardman: my office is across the road from Waterloo Station | 14:22 |
| ShellEvil | the nokia patent is cute - but I think it's going to be even worse than the laser keyb. | 14:22 |
| lardman | crashanddie: you're the Londonite :) | 14:22 |
| lardman | crashanddie: though it depends on where lcuk2 is going to be | 14:22 |
| ShellEvil | - as you have now added >50ms of delay in there | 14:22 |
| RST38h | ZogG: So Nokia absolutely HAS to have them, or it will be an epic fail in the eyes of the Faightful | 14:22 |
| ZogG | RST38h, that's why everyone want it =) | 14:22 |
| crashanddie | lardman: he's in the area, plus I'm a 3 minute walk from BFI, so he should be close | 14:22 |
| X-Fade | But i've seen an app on N810 where somebody switched to the next image in the galery by his hand swiping over the camera? | 14:23 |
| RST38h | (frankly I have no idea why I would need a capacitive touch screen) | 14:23 |
| ZogG | RST38h, that's what i say, cuz for now apple sets the rules, and it's unfair =) | 14:23 |
| lardman | crashanddie: I wasn't sure if he'd be there tomorrow though | 14:23 |
| RST38h | Resolution sucks and you are supposed to press it with your nose in winter | 14:23 |
| ShadowJK | i've become frighteningly proficient at typing on the N800 /stylus/ keyboard with thumbs without using nail | 14:23 |
| lardman | crashanddie: but I'll be at Regents Park, so only a couple of tube stops away | 14:23 |
| crashanddie | lardman: he's been there since yesterday apparently | 14:23 |
| lardman | ah ok | 14:23 |
| ZogG | X-Fade it's not multi. it can be just touchscreen | 14:23 |
| lardman | are there beer facilities near BFi? | 14:23 |
| Myrtti | oh christ this coffee is awful | 14:23 |
| RST38h | Myrtti: tea/ | 14:24 |
| ShadowJK | You know, this N900/RX-51 stuff is getting old, can we start speculating about RX-71? ;-) | 14:24 |
| ZogG | =) | 14:24 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: And RX-56 | 14:24 |
| ShadowJK | I didn't know there was a 56 :) | 14:24 |
| RST38h | ShadowJK: But there are only two bets you can make | 14:24 |
| Myrtti | ShadowJK: how about we speculate about light-speed travel? | 14:24 |
| ShellEvil | ShadowJK: It comes with a personal tracker system enabling the phone to follow you round if you forget it. | 14:24 |
| crashanddie | lardman: yeah, there's the fire station which is expensive, brasserie which is classy and cheap and trendy, anchor and hope which is cool, and probably 3 or 4 other pubs in the area | 14:24 |
| RST38h | Myrtti: we all know it is impossible | 14:25 |
| ShellEvil | ShadowJK: With integral battery storage strapped to the side of the sheep. | 14:25 |
| lardman | crashanddie: cool, sounds good | 14:25 |
| Myrtti | RST38h: faster than lightspeed then? | 14:25 |
| ShadowJK | Myrtti, FTL is like most software, a giant hack if it works at all | 14:25 |
| crashanddie | lardman: or across the river from BFI, there's a wine bar which is pretty good as well | 14:25 |
| lardman | crashanddie: what time do you finish work then? | 14:25 |
| RST38h | Shell: Really advanced tracking system should run on sugar from the subject's blood stream | 14:25 |
| crashanddie | lardman: whenever I want to | 14:25 |
| lardman | crashanddie: as long as there's stuff abotu that,s good | 14:25 |
| RST38h | Myrtti: Only on certain drugs | 14:25 |
| ShellEvil | RST38h: naah - grass. | 14:25 |
| lardman | crashanddie: ideal :) | 14:25 |
| RST38h | Myrtti: Powered by braincells, until the subject runs out of them | 14:26 |
| ShellEvil | I have an idea for a _great_ nokia product. | 14:26 |
| ShellEvil | The babelfish! | 14:26 |
| ccooke | Hmm. First mention I can find of the five step plan is from October 2007, saying the n810 was the third of five. | 14:26 |
| ccooke | I wonder if the plan actually originated around then or earlier :-) | 14:26 |
| crashanddie | lardman: apparently tomorrow evening it's the opening of onedotzero, so lcuk wants to attend, I don't have any tickets so unless it's very well organised or we get through the VIP, we won't get in (I called, fully booked) | 14:27 |
| ccooke | (http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=83440#post83440 seems to be the first mention on the forum) | 14:27 |
| lardman | crashanddie: ah I se | 14:27 |
| lardman | e | 14:27 |
| crashanddie | lardman: however, friday there doesn't seem to be anything that concerns us, so that would be ideal for a small meetup | 14:27 |
| lardman | crashanddie: I've got a conf next week so can't really head back to London | 14:28 |
| lardman | just happen to be there tomorrow | 14:28 |
| crashanddie | thought you said friday on the forum? | 14:28 |
| lardman | is this opening thing the talk at 7pm? | 14:28 |
| lardman | no, defo Thursday :) | 14:28 |
| crashanddie | my bad then | 14:28 |
| lardman | np | 14:28 |
| lardman | well don't worry too much, if no-one's about I can head back, lots of work to do still :) | 14:29 |
| crashanddie | nha, I'm available | 14:29 |
| crashanddie | Jaffa: you around tomorrow night? | 14:29 |
| lardman | ok, I'll see if we can scare up lcuk2 for at least a quick beer too | 14:29 |
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| crashanddie | should be doable | 14:29 |
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| Stskeeps | finally some info on /opt out | 14:51 |
| frals | link! | 14:51 |
| Stskeeps | it was on maemo-developers i think | 14:52 |
| Stskeeps | from quim gil | 14:52 |
| frals | rgr | 14:52 |
| Macer | hello | 14:53 |
| RST38h | Sts: the 5-step thing? | 14:53 |
| frals | http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/020585.html there we go, about the /opt | 14:53 |
| RST38h | ah | 14:53 |
| Macer | /opt? | 14:53 |
| _marcell_ | http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging%2C_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs | 14:54 |
| Stskeeps | _marcell_: question, is it /opt/packagename like in LSB? | 14:55 |
| RST38h | This all sounds weird. How many partitions is N900 going to have? | 14:55 |
| Stskeeps | because it does not tell anything about /opt structure at all :P | 14:55 |
| Macer | 1G? | 14:55 |
| RST38h | Ok, MyDocs points to mmc2 now. I am getting it. | 14:56 |
| RST38h | But where has /opt come from? | 14:56 |
| Macer | where is the 1G from? | 14:56 |
| Macer | heh | 14:56 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: internal nand is similar to n810, and /opt is on the MMC | 14:56 |
| RST38h | Is it also part of mmc2, just formatted in ext3? | 14:56 |
| Stskeeps | seems so | 14:56 |
| _marcell_ | Stskeeps: I am not sure, but mvo's tool might give some answers: http://gitorious.org/maemo-af/maemo-optify | 14:56 |
| X-Fade | opt is used to not use app install space on root. | 14:56 |
| RST38h | Sts: Ok, so mmc2 is divided into two partitions | 14:56 |
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| Macer | how open will the repartitioning be? | 14:56 |
| Macer | will people be able to make opt bigger ? :) | 14:57 |
| RST38h | Sts: how is wear leveling doing with ext3? | 14:57 |
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| RST38h | Macer: of course, just like extending their penis | 14:57 |
| Macer | i mean "users can not mess with it" | 14:57 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: ext2 on a SD will blow up your data quite often | 14:57 |
| Macer | seems rather set in stone | 14:57 |
| RST38h | Sts: then how does it work? | 14:57 |
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| RST38h | Sts: mmc2 is pretty much an SD card | 14:57 |
| RST38h | Sts: It has got an ext3 partition mounted as /opt | 14:57 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: ok, leveling is done by the SD card itself | 14:58 |
| Stskeeps | fact is that not using a journal on SD will cause data loss :P | 14:58 |
| RST38h | Sts: But as I understand it is tailored for VFAT | 14:58 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: we haven't had trouble with ext3 and mer. ever. that's enough proof for me :P | 14:58 |
| Macer | haha | 14:58 |
| RST38h | Sts: Change the access pattern and card's wear leveling goes wrong | 14:58 |
| Stskeeps | ext2 has lost data often | 14:58 |
| RST38h | Sts: Understood | 14:58 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: Someone Else's Problem | 14:59 |
| RST38h | Sts: ext2 wasn't working too well for me as well | 14:59 |
| Macer | i wonder why 1G :) seems rather... low | 14:59 |
| RST38h | Sts: unless I umount of course :) | 14:59 |
| Stskeeps | Macer: for apps it's more than enough, rest go into Documents | 14:59 |
| Macer | don't get me wrong. i'm sure apps are a little small but 1G? | 14:59 |
| lbt | seems a bit nuts... | 14:59 |
| RST38h | Sts: I now mount ext2 / as read-only - seems to work pretty well | 14:59 |
| Macer | Stskeeps: what about libs etc? | 14:59 |
| Macer | /opt/lib? :) | 14:59 |
| lbt | why not have /opt contain the 'as shipped' code and /usr be 1Gb | 14:59 |
| RST38h | /opt/include ;) | 15:00 |
| Macer | RST38h: haha | 15:00 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: i bet there's nothing stopping you from changing /opt to external microsd | 15:00 |
| lbt | then instead of having to hack "every" package you just hack the core code | 15:00 |
| RST38h | lbt: because /opt is usually used for optional packages | 15:00 |
| Macer | i hope not ;) | 15:00 |
| lbt | well /opt isn't normally used | 15:00 |
| Macer | meaning i hope you can just symlink opt somewhere else | 15:00 |
| Macer | how much space will the device have on its own without an sd? | 15:01 |
| Macer | 32G? | 15:01 |
| Stskeeps | 256mb internal, 32gb sd AFAIK | 15:01 |
| Macer | oh so it's coming with just an SD? | 15:01 |
| Stskeeps | and whatever microsd can take in external slot | 15:01 |
| Stskeeps | internal mmc, like in n810 | 15:01 |
| Macer | i was hoping it was 32G internal "SD" | 15:01 |
| Macer | oh ok | 15:02 |
| Stskeeps | it is | 15:02 |
| Macer | so yeah. that's good :) | 15:02 |
| RST38h | lbt: it is used all the time | 15:02 |
| Macer | so you still get an SD slot? | 15:02 |
| RST38h | lbt: Maybe not on your Linux | 15:02 |
| Stskeeps | i like /opt for the simple reason that game graphics shouldn | 15:02 |
| Stskeeps | 't be in MDocs | 15:02 |
| * ShellEvil wishes there were SD-raw available - that exposed the raw block device. | 15:02 | |
| Stskeeps | MyDocs | 15:02 |
| lbt | RST38h: my linux being Debian, the upstream for Maemo... | 15:02 |
| RST38h | lbt: afaik, /opt was originally Sun's invention, later adopted in Linux | 15:02 |
| Macer | sun ftw | 15:03 |
| ShellEvil | (doing your own wear leveling can be good in some circumstances where you care about where erase blocks are and optimisation with them for writes) | 15:03 |
| RST38h | Hell, I even saw /opt used in FreeBSD :) | 15:03 |
| Macer | opt in fbsd was for off the wall stuff | 15:03 |
| Macer | like glftpd or something :) | 15:03 |
| RST38h | correct | 15:03 |
| RST38h | some freaky package wanted it | 15:03 |
| Macer | there were a few that used it | 15:03 |
| Macer | i guess they just wanted to make sure those types of pkgs were away from anything else structure wise | 15:04 |
| RST38h | lbt: Anyways, /opt was originally created by Sun for installing LARGE packages. Sun dev tools, KDE, that kinda stuff | 15:04 |
| Macer | yeah. and now maemo gets 1GB :) | 15:04 |
| Macer | haha | 15:04 |
| Macer | i pray you can resize that | 15:04 |
| RST38h | lbt: Mounting part of internal mmc to /opt is a pretty vegetarian option | 15:04 |
| RST38h | lbt: I can think of worse ones | 15:04 |
| * Macer watches maemo5 turn into java by accident | 15:06 | |
| Macer | it starts with little sun things like /opt | 15:06 |
| * RST38h hits Macer with an eclipse | 15:06 | |
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| Macer | and soon turns into an overbloated android-like os | 15:06 |
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| Macer | i think my G1 has 192MB of internal storage. and only 14MB were free after i installed what i would consider crucial apps | 15:07 |
| Macer | how sad | 15:07 |
| RST38h | your G1 can't have 192MB of internal storage. It has 256MB | 15:07 |
| lbt | RST38h: see reply | 15:07 |
| Macer | oh | 15:07 |
| Macer | my mistake | 15:07 |
| Macer | that makes it even worse ;) | 15:07 |
| RST38h | lbt: ? | 15:07 |
| Macer | a while back someone sold an "application" to copy apps to your sd | 15:08 |
| Macer | which was just a front end for a script that links the sd | 15:08 |
| Macer | amazing | 15:08 |
| Macer | pure genious | 15:08 |
| lbt | RST38h: to ml | 15:09 |
| Macer | what is that.. like an 8 line script? :) | 15:09 |
| Macer | heh | 15:09 |
| Jaffa | Af'noon | 15:09 |
| Jaffa | crashanddie: Nope. Will be coming back fgrom Stockholm, late. | 15:09 |
| RST38h | lbt; URL? (sorry, I am stupid, I rarely read ML) | 15:09 |
| glass | Macer: back in the day for s60 1st ed there was a popular taskswitching application which was popular due to people not knowing that they could taskswitch without it too | 15:10 |
| RST38h | glass: People still do not know they can task switch in S60 | 15:10 |
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| RST38h | It is S60's best kept secret | 15:10 |
| Macer | haha | 15:10 |
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| Macer | that is awesome | 15:10 |
| Macer | see? making money off ignorance has worked since the dawn of time | 15:11 |
| lbt | same : http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/ | 15:11 |
| glass | yeh. prob is, you can't make long term business on selling apps like that | 15:11 |
| RST38h | thanks | 15:11 |
| Macer | glass: i don't think people who make apps like that are in it for the long haul ;) | 15:11 |
| RST38h | glass: You can come up with new and new shitty apps | 15:11 |
| jaska | crapplications | 15:11 |
| Macer | and even if they were.. who would know a developers name? | 15:11 |
| RST38h | glass: this is what a lot of iphone devs seem to be doing | 15:11 |
| glass | Macer: you wouldn't believe what kind of losers think they can make a living in sw dev :D | 15:11 |
| RST38h | glass: MIDP devs too | 15:12 |
| Macer | glass: haha | 15:12 |
| jaska | yeah, iphone is all about spamming crapplications | 15:12 |
| Macer | jaska: you must have never seen the android market ;) | 15:12 |
| RST38h | jaska: That is because app stores suck. But I think I already stated my opinion of these on t.m.o | 15:12 |
| jaska | macer: nope | 15:12 |
| jaska | rst38h: agreed. | 15:12 |
| Macer | jaska: i'm sure it is just as bad | 15:12 |
| Macer | if not worse | 15:12 |
| crashanddie | Jaffa: Friday then? | 15:12 |
| glass | trend followers are always trend followers, not trend makers | 15:12 |
| RST38h | There is simply no way a mobile app store can present Nx10000000 applications to a user | 15:13 |
| crashanddie | that's not entirely correct, glass | 15:13 |
| Macer | glass: the trend makers know what they are doing though | 15:13 |
| glass | golddigging with crappy app on appstore is exactly the kind of 'idea' you get if you read it press | 15:13 |
| Macer | google makes a ton off of its market as i am sure apple does also | 15:13 |
| crashanddie | [Citation needed] | 15:13 |
| Macer | i think they take 30% of each sale or something like that :) | 15:14 |
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| glass | Macer: ye, about so | 15:14 |
| glass | thats better than what you get if you sell crap via psms though.. | 15:14 |
| glass | making good sw is a good way to land a job though | 15:14 |
| glass | no matter if you make money on it or not | 15:14 |
| crashanddie | it's a way to land a job | 15:15 |
| jaska | theyve been doing it with ringtones etc here for years... sms-order a ringtome, end up paying 10eur/4weeks which autorenews | 15:15 |
| crashanddie | but being a good coder doesn't make you employable | 15:15 |
| RST38h | lbt: Sorry but I cannot find your answer. There are answers from Anidello Del Sorbo and Attila Csipa | 15:15 |
| Macer | On 31 March Google has banned tethering application from the Android Market for violating the developer distribution agreement. | 15:15 |
| Macer | After few days Google restored tethering app for Android users outside the T-Mobile US network. | 15:15 |
| Macer | It was a result of violation the T-Mobile terms of service - this wireless carrier doesn’t allow tethering. | 15:15 |
| Macer | haha! | 15:15 |
| RST38h | lbt: Simply tell why you think /opt is such a bad idea | 15:15 |
| Macer | thank god i installed it in time i suppose? :) | 15:15 |
| jaska | that not-allowing-tethering must be an us thing | 15:15 |
| jaska | never heard of it here | 15:15 |
| Macer | jaska: oh yeah | 15:15 |
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| crashanddie | glass: "If you make something they will come" is a myth, and anyone who believes it is an idiot. If you want a job, you have to fight for it | 15:15 |
| Macer | att for example charges more if you request to tether | 15:16 |
| glass | crashanddie: bullshit ;)... | 15:16 |
| Macer | and if you don't pay for it they throttle your bandwidth if it detects long xfers over 3G | 15:16 |
| crashanddie | glass: what do you do for a living? | 15:16 |
| Macer | you use a different gateway for actual tethering | 15:16 |
| glass | crashanddie: mobile dev | 15:16 |
| glass | crashanddie: got the career with mobile sw i gave for free | 15:16 |
| RST38h | glass: You do know Apple threw C64 emulator out AGAIN because it runs BASIC which can theoretically be used to compromise iPhone? | 15:16 |
| glass | RST38h: huh, quite apple like though | 15:16 |
| jaska | i just troll on irc for a living | 15:16 |
| Macer | jaska: me too! | 15:17 |
| Macer | (high five) | 15:17 |
| crashanddie | glass: and you got that job how? Through sending your CV and landing an interview? Or because they contacted you and offered you a job without any further adue? If it's the second option, you must be the first one I meet | 15:17 |
| glass | crashanddie: i'm on my second job, never got a job by sending a cv | 15:17 |
| Macer | my buddy was called by nokia | 15:17 |
| lbt | RST38h: and you expect me to buy GPL code based on your google-fu? hah http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/020588.html | 15:17 |
| Macer | and they called it a "chat" | 15:17 |
| Macer | heh | 15:17 |
| Macer | how odd | 15:17 |
| Macer | "not an interview.. a chat" literally said that :) | 15:17 |
| glass | crashanddie: a guy emailed me first time, the second time i got told to call a guy | 15:18 |
| RST38h | lbt: of course! <evil cackling> | 15:18 |
| jaska | yeah, ive always got my jobs thru people asking for me to come work for them, thus i suck at finding jobs on my own and so i dont have any now :) | 15:18 |
| Jaffa | crashanddie: Yup. After work I'm meeting with Jussi and lcuk to go through our presentation on Saturday | 15:18 |
| Macer | he said they were asking him about "CLOUD" or something like that | 15:18 |
| RST38h | Macer: I always treat interviews as chats | 15:18 |
| Macer | is that like the whole social networking thing the guy kept going on about? | 15:18 |
| RST38h | Macer: Otherwise you get all formal and strung up and interviewers hate that | 15:18 |
| crashanddie | Jaffa: I might join you then | 15:18 |
| lardman | Jaffa: you're not about tomorrow are you? | 15:18 |
| lbt | jaska: me too ... sadly I seem to have lost them all :( | 15:18 |
| Macer | RST38h: heh. well. i told him that he better get the job and send me a box of n900s if he does | 15:19 |
| RST38h | lbt: Yea, I agree with your reply. There is a hidden problem though. | 15:19 |
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| RST38h | lbt: What if Nokia decides NOT to ship mmc2 in the next device? | 15:19 |
| crashanddie | lardman: nope | 15:19 |
| RST38h | lbt: Also, how will firmware update work? | 15:19 |
| Macer | RST38h: quit being so negative :) | 15:19 |
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| lbt | all dealable with - | 15:20 |
| Macer | nokia knows what they are doing! | 15:20 |
| glass | RST38h: for all we know next device could run maemo666 in a beos virtual environment, :p | 15:20 |
| lbt | and actually ensures that / is clean | 15:20 |
| RST38h | Macer: You should try being negative, it saves your from disappointments | 15:20 |
| RST38h | glass: Will run Fremantle =) | 15:20 |
| crashanddie | RST38h: it prevents you from hope as well | 15:20 |
| Macer | RST38h: heh. trust me. i've been through the worse ;) nothing is disappointing | 15:20 |
| RST38h | lbt: Dealable all right, but I doubt Maemians want to deal with all this | 15:21 |
| RST38h | lbt: whole /opt proposal sounds like a quick plan to fix the current problem at hand | 15:21 |
| RST38h | lbt: Without interfering with their production/development schedule | 15:21 |
| Macer | RST38h: it works for me as long as you can resize it | 15:21 |
| Macer | 1GB sounds small | 15:21 |
| lbt | no, it sounds like making life hard for many people for the benefit of the few | 15:21 |
| RST38h | Macer: Should be able to resize it up to the whole mmc2 | 15:22 |
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| RST38h | lbt: What would be the problem of /opt? | 15:22 |
| Macer | RST38h: then i'm sold ;) | 15:22 |
| lbt | OTOH, I understand they'll have deadlines | 15:22 |
| Macer | lbt: is it really that difficult to have pkgs install in /opt? :) | 15:22 |
| RST38h | lbt: Deadlines and plain unwillingness to set the whole system upside down for a couple third party developers | 15:22 |
| ShadowJK | Macer, agreed :-) | 15:23 |
| X-Fade | You shouldn't have to do anything to physically place files in /opt. | 15:23 |
| RST38h | ? | 15:23 |
| lbt | Yes, it is difficult | 15:23 |
| X-Fade | The optify script will probably run after the builder. | 15:23 |
| Macer | X-Fade: well. that would be up to the developers wouldn't it? | 15:23 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: You are complicatign things | 15:23 |
| X-Fade | So the package in extras will automatically have large files in opt. | 15:23 |
| X-Fade | So the app can just assume the file is in /usr/* as normal. | 15:23 |
| lbt | see what I mean | 15:24 |
| X-Fade | No code change, just packaging change. | 15:24 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: Do not change file locations after the fact. If developer submits the package, builder should not change what developers does there | 15:24 |
| crashanddie | Deadline: In international markets, a deadline is literally that: a line or cable made of liquid uranium that is hung at neck level in front of the development team. As time goes buy, the "deadline" approaches slowly, and as the developers are chained to their desks, slowly decapitated if no delivery is made. | 15:24 |
| lbt | what could possibly go wrong... | 15:24 |
| Macer | lbt: haha | 15:24 |
| RST38h | lbt: Frankly I do not expect much to go wrong | 15:24 |
| Macer | point taken :) | 15:24 |
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| RST38h | lbt: We already HAVE large packages installing to mmc1/mmc2 | 15:24 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Will only run when enabled in the control file of the package. | 15:24 |
| RST38h | lbt: /opt is not gonna be worse than that | 15:24 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: Oh...screwy | 15:25 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: So the developer has to point to it. | 15:25 |
| Macer | most developers are smart guys | 15:25 |
| X-Fade | Files in opt will just be symlinked in /usr/ | 15:25 |
| Macer | i'm sure they'll get it by 0.000002 | 15:25 |
| Macer | ;) | 15:25 |
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| lbt | hey, it's a solution.. I just think it's sub-optimal | 15:25 |
| X-Fade | lbt: I agree. | 15:25 |
| Macer | lbt: it is a common solution | 15:25 |
| Vanadis | hi | 15:25 |
| Macer | ran out of space | 15:25 |
| lbt | Macer and... | 15:25 |
| Macer | link to new drive :) i don't see why it is a bad thing at all | 15:26 |
| ShadowJK | how about clone to mmc ;D | 15:26 |
| lbt | I think the solution I outlined needs testing once and then requires no hackery | 15:26 |
| lbt | that's all | 15:26 |
| crashanddie | because cross-mount symlinking is Evil | 15:26 |
| lbt | no mods to builder | 15:26 |
| lbt | no "optify" | 15:26 |
| lbt | no "where did that file end up" | 15:26 |
| RST38h | lbt: One can only hope they will change it for Harmattan but I wouldn;t hold my breath :( | 15:26 |
| X-Fade | lbt: Problem is that the device side can't change anymore. | 15:26 |
| Macer | crashanddie: that it is :) but works | 15:26 |
| lbt | no cd /usr/blah/; pwd >>> /opt/blah | 15:26 |
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| Macer | i believe Stskeeps told me "make it work, smooth it out later" | 15:26 |
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| X-Fade | lbt: So only option is to do it on our side. | 15:27 |
| Macer | not in the same words though :) | 15:27 |
| lbt | cd /usr/blah; cd ..; pwd >>> /opt | 15:27 |
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| crashanddie | Macer: I was more thinking along the lines of "if it ain't broken; don't fix it" | 15:27 |
| lbt | anyhow... like I said... I understand :) | 15:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | lbt, feel free to push unionfs. | 15:27 |
| X-Fade | lbt: I think only the files are symlinked. | 15:27 |
| X-Fade | lbt: Not the dirs. | 15:27 |
| * crashanddie pushes GeneralAntilles | 15:27 | |
| crashanddie | GA for President | 15:28 |
| lbt | X-Fade: that will help | 15:28 |
| * GeneralAntilles falls off the cliff. | 15:28 | |
| X-Fade | lbt: Anything above a certain size. | 15:28 |
| crashanddie | GA for dead President | 15:28 |
| RST38h | that's what a good president should do | 15:28 |
| Macer | crashanddie: heh. i think their resolve was to prevent reengineering the phone | 15:28 |
| * GeneralAntilles "braaaiiins" | 15:28 | |
| crashanddie | GeneralAntilles: you're the president, you don't need those | 15:28 |
| lbt | how does AppMgr sort out disk space then? | 15:29 |
| Macer | lbt: interesting problem :) | 15:29 |
| Macer | didn't take that into consideration | 15:29 |
| crashanddie | GeneralAntilles: "You have a brain, it's not stupid. It's just lazy. Try using it sometimes instead of just letting it use up space in your skull" | 15:29 |
| Macer | follows the link to the device? | 15:29 |
| crashanddie | GeneralAntilles: (TB quote) | 15:29 |
| Macer | and determines space on both? | 15:29 |
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| RST38h | crashanddie: most people do not have brains, what they have is known as transaural cartilage | 15:31 |
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| crashanddie | RST38h: or as we call it in medical circles: "The vast nothingness that separates your ears" | 15:32 |
| RST38h | exactly | 15:32 |
| crashanddie | but I was actually complimenting our good General | 15:33 |
| crashanddie | he seems to have lost his mojo, I want him to grow it back | 15:33 |
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| RST38h | he is already a chair, what piece of furniture do you want ot make him next? | 15:33 |
| crashanddie | dildo? | 15:33 |
| crashanddie | GAN800: fancy being a dildo? | 15:33 |
| Vanadis | somebody knows if the new maemo (on N900) supports the current applications? | 15:33 |
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| Stskeeps | Vanadis: if the apps doesn't use deprecated APIs it should be fine | 15:34 |
| Vanadis | thx | 15:34 |
| crashanddie | Vanadis: will probably require a recompile to take into account the updates to the libs and API, but that's about it | 15:34 |
| Vanadis | never had a maemo device | 15:34 |
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| Vanadis | i always was into symbian s60 but the n900 is quite awesome | 15:34 |
| crashanddie | pre-ordered the n900? | 15:34 |
| crashanddie | lardman|lunch: we've got Aniello joining us tomorrow as well | 15:35 |
| crashanddie | lardman|lunch: he's coming up from Chiswick thugh | 15:35 |
| crashanddie | s/ugh/ough/ | 15:36 |
| infobot | crashanddie meant: lardman|lunch: he's coming up from Chiswick though | 15:36 |
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| Captain_Picard | http://www.opsat.net/temp/iphone-usage.png | 15:36 |
| RST38h | crashanddie: You surely got weird furniture... | 15:36 |
| crashanddie | RST38h: you have no idea how confused the Ikeas guys are when they see me coming | 15:37 |
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| * Jaffa would rather developers specifically started putting everything except icons, .desktop, launch scripts and .service files in /opt/_application_ rather than any automagic stuff | 15:38 | |
| * RST38h agrees with Jaffa | 15:38 | |
| Stskeeps | i'm not sure optify is sane | 15:38 |
| Jaffa | Although, does it become a pre-req of the Extras QA that it uses /opt and doesn't waste space | 15:38 |
| RST38h | Automagic stuff is confusing. | 15:38 |
| Jaffa | Symlink pollution is bad. | 15:38 |
| * Jaffa guesses it is a QA req. now. (Having played with an N900 which filled up awful damn quick) | 15:39 | |
| Vanadis | haven't preordered it yet | 15:39 |
| Jaffa | And HAM/apt don't like full partitions very much (having tried to dpkg-repack map on an N810) | 15:39 |
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| Vanadis | but i need a new cell phone in about 2 months | 15:39 |
| crashanddie | mobile* | 15:40 |
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| RST38h | ...Attempts to recover the surviving portion of the agents body from the ship ultimately resulted in his death. | 15:43 |
| lbt | VDVsx: ping | 15:44 |
| Stskeeps | Jaffa: will be interesting if some apps will try to rm the original symlink .. | 15:44 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: Hmm, yes. Bind mount would've been better IMHO | 15:45 |
| Jaffa | In fact, that might be worth a bug in Bugzilla | 15:45 |
| * lbt waits for /opt and optify carnage... | 15:45 | |
| Jaffa | Anyone looked at the optify source yet? | 15:45 |
| * lbt watches Qt build some more on his OBS/accel | 15:46 | |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: It is a repack like script. | 15:46 |
| lbt | find /usr --size +5M --print0 | xargs -0 move_and_linkback | 15:47 |
| * wazd has finished OSM2Go icons | 15:47 | |
| mgedmin | icons are good | 15:48 |
| X-Fade | lbt: even smaller, 100 1MB files fill it up too ;) | 15:48 |
| mgedmin | what's up with latest osm2go refusing to install on latest diablo? | 15:48 |
| * mgedmin re-runs apt-get update to make sure it's the latest one | 15:49 | |
| lbt | dpkg-deb -x ; run script; dpk-deb -b | 15:49 |
| wazd | mgedmin: you better ask Till, I'm just helping with icons :) | 15:49 |
| VDVsx | lbt, pon | 15:49 |
| VDVsx | g | 15:49 |
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| X-Fade | lbt: I would prefer AM to just install to a certain location. But that would mean apt would need changes too. | 15:50 |
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| X-Fade | lbt: Which is a big risk :) | 15:50 |
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| X-Fade | But installing files on a removable media like some apps want to do, is not always a good idea either. | 15:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, Jaffa's the chair now. | 15:51 |
| * lbt seriously thinks that /usr on a 1Gb is much saner - even at this late date. | 15:52 | |
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| X-Fade | lbt: Agree. | 15:52 |
| X-Fade | lbt: But I'll let others explain why that is not an option :) | 15:52 |
| Stskeeps | lbt: /usr on another partition is something linux isn't very fond of doing :/ | 15:52 |
| ccooke | Stskeeps: depends on the distro | 15:53 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 15:53 |
| * mgedmin sudo apt-get install osm2go=0.7.18-maemo1 # .19 and .20 won't install due to libssl version conflicts | 15:53 | |
| Stskeeps | and i'm willing to bet Maemo is not crazy about it | 15:53 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 15:53 |
| ccooke | Traditionally /usr *should* be a different partition | 15:53 |
| X-Fade | umount /usr and your shell is kind of dead ;) | 15:53 |
| lbt | Stskeeps: I know - http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/020588.html | 15:53 |
| ccooke | Stskeeps: well, no. But maemo is designed to be a single partition | 15:53 |
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| mgedmin | X-Fade: /bin and /lib are supposed to have sufficient stuff for system boot | 15:54 |
| mgedmin | which means you can remount /usr and bring your shell back | 15:54 |
| ccooke | If we're talking putting apps onto a larger filesystem, why not use a unionfs? | 15:54 |
| mgedmin | now NFS-mounted /home does kill shells pretty nicely | 15:54 |
| mgedmin | when it goes down | 15:54 |
| mgedmin | ccooke: could be because there's no stable working unionfs? | 15:55 |
| ccooke | mgedmin: Use the right mount options and that's fine. | 15:55 |
| mgedmin | all implementations are incomplete external patches | 15:55 |
| ccooke | mgedmin: there are stable ones - it's just not mainline. | 15:55 |
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| ccooke | It's used in a number of production environments, for instance | 15:55 |
| RST38h | General: Ah, there has been a suggestion to establish other furniture positions =) | 15:56 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Can I be the couch? | 15:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'm lazy. | 15:56 |
| * lbt likes various positions on furniture | 15:57 | |
| RST38h | Left untended, it starts dragging victims into the fueling chamber and [DATA EXPUNGED].... | 15:57 |
| X-Fade | lol, Quim's mail contains the edit button from the wiki article he pasted it from ;) | 15:58 |
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| aquatix | X-Fade: opensource mail, yum | 15:58 |
| asj_wrk- | MySQL was an evil company that didn't play well with others in the OSS market place | 15:59 |
| asj_wrk- | in my experiance with them anyways | 15:59 |
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| luke-jr | MySQL is all embrace and extend too | 16:00 |
| luke-jr | and refuse to follow the standard in the first place | 16:01 |
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| Vanadis | how's the exchange support on maemo? | 16:03 |
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| mgedmin | tigert's ascii-art powers are awesome | 16:13 |
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| Jaffa | Vanadis: It's very similar to _Mail for Exchange_ on S60 (in Maemo 5, at least) | 16:14 |
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| mgedmin | what is apt doing for so long? | 16:25 |
| mgedmin | the system is idle | 16:25 |
| X-Fade | mgedmin: extract Packages and parse it? | 16:25 |
| mgedmin | "Setting up osm2go ..." "Cache file created successfully." | 16:26 |
| mgedmin | and now it's sitting there doing apparently not | 16:26 |
| mgedmin | oh crap it's the dreaded GUI dialog waiting for me to select the menu | 16:26 |
| mgedmin | gets me every time I ssh + sudo apt-get install something | 16:26 |
| X-Fade | lol | 16:26 |
| mgedmin | it's soo good it's gone in maemo 5 | 16:27 |
| X-Fade | mgedmin: Yeah, but there are still apps to prompt the user. | 16:27 |
| aquatix | mgedmin: same here | 16:27 |
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| RST38h | Between 24 and 48 hours after being stung, the subject will begin to experience abnormalities in the regular flow of spacetime, with events around the subject happening slower or faster than normal. | 16:36 |
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| RST38h | X-Fade: the system should be clever enough to see that installation was started from command line and show prompts in terminal =) | 16:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | Somebody should take "e.g." away from non-native speakers. | 16:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | Talk abou Latin abuse. | 16:37 |
| asj_wrk- | non-native latin speakers? | 16:37 |
| mgedmin | the only thing wrong with e.g. is that people confuse it with i.e. and vice versa | 16:38 |
| mgedmin | also, I've no clue how to pronounce it | 16:39 |
| mgedmin | "exempli gratia"? "for example"? | 16:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | mgedmin, that, and randomly inserting it in the middle of sentences where it doesn't belong. | 16:39 |
| * RST38h e.g.g.s General | 16:39 | |
| GeneralAntilles | asj_wrk-, non-native English speakers using it when writing English. | 16:39 |
| asj_wrk- | ok just checking :) | 16:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | The most recent example: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2009-September/020591.html | 16:40 |
| aquatix | hm | 16:41 |
| aquatix | icky | 16:41 |
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| RST38h | eh... | 16:41 |
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| fiferboy | There are proper ways, e.g making lists, to use it though ;) | 16:43 |
| aquatix | e.g., spelling it the right way? | 16:43 |
| fiferboy | Good example | 16:43 |
| RST38h | Google claims .e.g stands for Evil Geniuses | 16:43 |
| asj_wrk- | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_phrases_%28full%29 -- I should use more of these in emails through the ond of this annus mirabilis ;) | 16:44 |
| aquatix | RST38h: that's because of the placement of the dots | 16:44 |
| RST38h | aquatix: no, the placement of dots is due to my lousy typing | 16:44 |
| aquatix | *g* | 16:44 |
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| RST38h | "It must have been lost somewhere in the specs, but the Nokia N900 actually does have an Infrared (IR) port." (C)Reggie | 16:47 |
| RST38h | Hey, Nokians, confirm, deny? | 16:48 |
| aquatix | cancel | 16:48 |
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| Stskeeps | Abort! Abort! | 16:50 |
| RST38h | I guess this is the expected easter egg, isn't it? | 16:50 |
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| RST38h | hey javis | 16:51 |
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| X-Fade | RST38h: I guess this is because reggie saw the irreco movie (n900) on youtube | 16:51 |
| javispedro | hi | 16:51 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: but irreco works on n8x0 too :) | 16:51 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: irreco's author is on t.m.o confirming that there is an ir transmitter | 16:52 |
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| X-Fade | Although the n900 is using a local lirc device. | 16:52 |
| X-Fade | So it could be true. | 16:52 |
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| RST38h | it is apparently that mysterious window at the top | 16:52 |
| X-Fade | It was mentioned when the first kernel came out? | 16:52 |
| RST38h | no idea, ask our kernel hackers :) | 16:53 |
| X-Fade | A real CIR port.. | 16:53 |
| Stskeeps | all we know is from prototype devices though? :P | 16:53 |
| RST38h | Sts: You mean, consumer version will have that window taped over? ;) | 16:53 |
| ShellEvil | You could use a IRDA device as a face sensor quite easily | 16:54 |
| Stskeeps | how did that proximity thing work anyway? | 16:55 |
| javispedro | ir transmiter? | 16:55 |
| RST38h | yep | 16:56 |
| * javispedro reads logs | 16:56 | |
| RST38h | Sts: probably a field effect transistor or something | 16:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | It works the same way as the proximity sensors on synthesizers and keyboards. | 16:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | Just an IR transmitter and receiver. | 16:57 |
| RST38h | interesting | 16:58 |
| RST38h | so, it can ALSO be used as an IR receiver | 16:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | Doubtful | 16:58 |
| RST38h | IR joypads anyone? | 16:58 |
| ShellEvil | RST38h: it depends - if they thought of it - yes | 16:58 |
| RST38h | probably didn't... | 16:58 |
| ShellEvil | RST38h: a IRDA and a face sensor can be combined almost free | 16:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | Unless you want your screen to turn off everytime you try to game. | 16:58 |
| wazd | even irreco author has a n900 :D | 16:59 |
| javispedro | waaaah | 16:59 |
| ccooke | I still find it slightly odd that the n900 has gained an IR port :-) | 17:00 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Wow, so HAM did get a bit of a UI overhaul. | 17:02 |
| RST38h | just a little bit it seems, not enough | 17:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah | 17:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Still sucks for package management. | 17:02 |
| RST38h | still no icons for categories for example | 17:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Prettified, not made more useful. | 17:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Patches welcome, I'm sure. | 17:02 |
| RST38h | made less useful, in fact | 17:03 |
| wazd | can anybody give me a shot with that blueish icons in media player/HAM? | 17:03 |
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| wazd | since they are exposed in every way I don't think that it will be legal problem and stuff | 17:03 |
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| RST38h | wazd: http://thenokiablog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/nokia_n900_ui.jpg | 17:05 |
| wazd | oh | 17:05 |
| RST38h | these or the other bunch? | 17:05 |
| wazd | *fail* :D | 17:05 |
| wazd | RST38h: yeah, thanks :) | 17:05 |
| wazd | RST38h: somehow missed them in review | 17:06 |
| RST38h | original Canola icons looked better, indeed | 17:06 |
| aol_ | http://www.worldcarfans.com/109090921595/2010-mercedes-benz-sls-amg-official-details--first-photos | 17:07 |
| aol_ | oops | 17:07 |
| aol_ | http://www.worldcarfans.com/109090921595/2010-mercedes-benz-sls-amg-official-details--first-photos | 17:08 |
| javispedro | ah, /opt . | 17:08 |
| aol_ | I'm very sorry :( | 17:08 |
| javispedro | *sigh* | 17:08 |
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| aol_ | the SDK instructions say run ./af-sb-init.sh start | 17:08 |
| aol_ | but I don't seem to have that script | 17:08 |
| javispedro | so, we have to decide | 17:09 |
| javispedro | wheter to start changing every pkg now | 17:09 |
| javispedro | or just put maemo-optify-deb in the autobuilder | 17:10 |
| aol_ | only ARMEL has that scrip | 17:10 |
| javispedro | aol_: you have to install nokia-binaries in x86 too. | 17:10 |
| RST38h | I vote for manual changes | 17:10 |
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| javispedro | RST38h, I too. But I see it will suck for some people. | 17:10 |
| RST38h | javis: You have to redo packages for Fremantle anyway | 17:11 |
| RST38h | javis: And absolutely nothing can suck more than current habit of installing data to mmc | 17:11 |
| javispedro | RST38h: not really. e.g. lcuk did not | 17:11 |
| RST38h | yes but he had ot change the code, didn't he? | 17:12 |
| javispedro | yeah, but no conditional compilation | 17:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | There's that damn e.g. again! | 17:12 |
| javispedro | GeneralAntilles: what, you don't like Latin? | 17:12 |
| RST38h | javis: As he had to screw with it anyway, he could just as well change to opt (if needed of course) | 17:13 |
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| GeneralAntilles | javispedro, scrollback. :P | 17:13 |
| javispedro | but now he will need to cond. compilation/installation | 17:13 |
| aol_ | javispedro: ah so the scrachbox can be in arm/x86 mode .... | 17:13 |
| Jaffa | javispedro: Nothing wrong with using /opt on diablo | 17:13 |
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| aol_ | javispedro: thanks, probably saved me lot of time! | 17:14 |
| javispedro | GeneralAntilles: do you know a page with examples for proper usage? | 17:16 |
| javispedro | ah, wait, wikipedia itself. | 17:16 |
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| RST38h | Scary stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB1GxqRFKzw | 17:20 |
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| javispedro | e.g. (exempli gratia): literally "for the sake of example" but in the modern it would be "for instance." It is used correctly to introduce an example. It is used incorrectly to mean "that is". well... | 17:20 |
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| lopz | gm ;) | 17:21 |
| RST38h | "that is" == i.e. | 17:21 |
| * RST38h still hasn't grasped the usage of "sic!" though | 17:22 | |
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| nomis | RST38h: (sic!) is an empasis that the preceding error is not yours, but from the original source. | 17:24 |
| javispedro | I've never seen "sic!" though. OTOH, [sic]... | 17:25 |
| Jaffa | "'sic!' [sic] is an indication that the preceding error is not yours." | 17:25 |
| RST38h | Is it a written substitute for snickering then? =) | 17:25 |
| nomis | RST38h: not necessarily. | 17:26 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: It's Latin equivalent of "as-is"/"as-it-was" | 17:26 |
| RST38h | ah | 17:26 |
| RST38h | See, finding something new every day... | 17:26 |
| * javispedro did not learn a thing yet. well, other than finding the n900 possibly has some kind of ir... | 17:26 | |
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| javispedro | so, from reading the optify source, the final /opt layout is going to be /opt/maemo/usr/{bin,lib,etc}, seems | 17:30 |
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| javispedro | without neither PATH nor LD_LIBRARY_PATH nor ld.conf tricks: only symlinks | 17:31 |
| RST38h | maemo/usr is completely useless there | 17:31 |
| lardman | javispedro: IR? | 17:31 |
| RST38h | http://scp-wiki.wikidot.com/experiment-log-709 | 17:31 |
| ShellEvil | On the N900 - is there a bottom-left wifi indicator? | 17:32 |
| javispedro | lardman: http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2009-09-09.log.html#t2009-09-09T16:47:59 | 17:32 |
| Corsac | javispedro: it's consistent with FHS, it seems | 17:32 |
| ShellEvil | A LED - a little bit from the bottom-left corner - held as you'd use the keyb | 17:32 |
| Corsac | which recommends /opt/<vendor>/ layout | 17:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | ShellEvil, that's the notification LED. | 17:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | Don't think it has any notifications for WiFi, although you could certainly arrange some. | 17:33 |
| lardman | javispedro: hmm, interesting | 17:33 |
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| ShellEvil | k - it looked the same 'colour' as IR renders on many cameras. - on some videos I saw | 17:33 |
| lardman | good good, still lots of old hw with IR ports | 17:33 |
| Jaffa | Corsac: Yeah, I'm going to directly put stuff in /opt/attitude or /opt/bue, for example. | 17:34 |
| Jaffa | e.g. /opt/$PACKAGE/<whatever I want> | 17:34 |
| javispedro | I smell mess. | 17:34 |
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| Jaffa | Symlinking is ugly in the case of a Maemo-specific app | 17:34 |
| javispedro | well. | 17:34 |
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| javispedro | so finally the N900 is now a proud descendant of GoboLinux ;) | 17:35 |
| RST38h | /opt/kde and /opt/android are definitely coming... | 17:35 |
| * Jaffa has an advantage in that those two apps are Python-based, and the python libs they depend on will go into /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/ | 17:35 | |
| RST38h | and then /opt/java seems inevitable =) | 17:35 |
| Jaffa | javispedro: If you're going the /opt route, you might as well do it properly. | 17:35 |
| * Jaffa has heard of /opt/qt4 on Maemo 5 too | 17:35 | |
| usul | what is GoBoLinux? | 17:35 |
| RST38h | usul: another silly linux distro I guess | 17:36 |
| usul | go-bot linux? | 17:36 |
| javispedro | usul: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoboLinux | 17:36 |
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| javispedro | I still smell mess though. Python applications will use / memory, the app mgr won't let you install any app if you don't have enough / space left, und so weiter. | 17:37 |
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| asj_wrk- | Gobolinux must have the most complicated ./configure strings on the planet | 17:37 |
| Jaffa | javispedro: Python *libraries* will use / memory, by default. | 17:38 |
| RST38h | GoboLinux was probably done by MacOS fanatics or something | 17:38 |
| javispedro | :) | 17:38 |
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| * javispedro considers doing a special dh_installopt that installs things to /opt and creates symlinks | 17:39 | |
| asj_wrk- | I wonder how they take care of a users PATH? I wonder what it's max size is... | 17:40 |
| javispedro | thus in debian folder, package.install for things to / and package.installopt for /opt things | 17:40 |
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| javispedro | on diablo, dh_installopt calls dh_install . | 17:40 |
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| asj_wrk- | oh, they put symlinks of everything into /System/Links/Executables essentially creating /usr/bin again | 17:40 |
| javispedro | asj_wrk: yeah. there are some talks about doing that with a FUSE fs. | 17:41 |
| usul | ok that was worth opening a 7th browser window on tablet :) | 17:41 |
| Jaffa | javispedro: Why not start using /opt on Diablo? Then we can mount it as a loopback FS or partition on the internal eMMC | 17:43 |
| javispedro | how you convince users to mount it? | 17:43 |
| javispedro | :) | 17:43 |
| Jaffa | It gets created on internal / if they haven't. Gives power users ability to get benefits without moving whole FS to mmc | 17:44 |
| Jaffa | Using a *different* bit of rootfs on diablo in default case doesn't seem to me to be a problem | 17:44 |
| javispedro | this is not exactly the same situation as the "installing to card" issue. We (well, at least I) used to left >1 MiB binaries in /, which is now not recommended in Fremantle | 17:44 |
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| * Jaffa 's point is that diablo doesn't need any special treatment. /opt will work there too, it's just that most users won't see the benefits it gives on Fremantle (though it is relatively easy for users to get those benefits). However, it's a zero-cost game if your package is capable of working on diablo or fremantle. | 17:46 | |
| javispedro | btw, the only reason I can think of for a shared /opt/maemo/ $PREFIX is "future" unionfs compatibility | 17:49 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: One can create a special package that will resize current mmc2 partition, create a new ext2/ext3 one and mount it aas /opt | 17:50 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: after which more space becomes available for the apps on Diablo | 17:50 |
| Stskeeps | ^ | 17:50 |
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| javispedro | http://maemo.org/packages/view/maemo-optify/ | 17:55 |
| RST38h | coming: maemo-mortify (for rendering packages inactive) and maemo-transmogrify (for binary-translating i386 packages into armel) | 17:57 |
| javispedro | as Macer said, some day we will wake up and find Maemo is now Android | 17:57 |
| javispedro | ;) | 17:57 |
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| Stskeeps | RST38h: maemo-transmogrify could maybe be done with qemu :P | 17:58 |
| thp | about that /opt thing.. i thought they wanted to "align with mainstream linux"? | 17:58 |
| thp | http://wiki.maemo.org/Mainstream_Linux_Alignment | 17:58 |
| javispedro | ah well. | 17:58 |
| javispedro | that will be Fixed in Harmattan, of course. | 17:59 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: Exactly | 17:59 |
| Jaffa | javispedro: We've not heard anything about a shared /opt/maemo prefix. We've been told to use /opt. maemo-optify needs to prefix all the paths with something in its initial implementation, so sticks /opt/maemo on as a qualifier. | 18:00 |
| Jaffa | javispedro: I'd bet that a patch to make it use /opt/_package_/bin rather than /opt/maemo/usr/bin would be accepted | 18:00 |
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| javispedro | Jaffa: patch? unless Perl does not allowing accessing global vars from functions, that is a one-liner. | 18:01 |
| chx | RST38h: are you serious about that maemo-transmogrify? | 18:01 |
| javispedro | s/allowing/allow/ :P | 18:02 |
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| Jaffa | javispedro: Well, perhaps the author didn't consider it (I've not looked at the source yet) | 18:03 |
| javispedro | Jaffa: that'd be my guess too (well, that, or overlooking something ;)). | 18:03 |
| javispedro | but the question is: why? | 18:03 |
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| X-Fade | Marius is probably open for suggestions. | 18:04 |
| Jaffa | javispedro: Because mvo is god, and it's been quickly hacked? | 18:04 |
| X-Fade | Just propose it.. | 18:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | javispedro, if we want to be involved in the process, then we have to get involved. :P | 18:05 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: Mail is being written now! | 18:05 |
| javispedro | I really dunno, maybe there's a reason I don't know. | 18:05 |
| javispedro | (proper reason) | 18:05 |
| X-Fade | Jaffa: it is not a coincidence that this code is in a public git repo :) | 18:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | javispedro, are you subscribed to maemo-developers? | 18:05 |
| javispedro | GeneralAntilles, yes | 18:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | javispedro, the thread there is the place to make proposals. | 18:06 |
| wazd | javispedro: I want quicksave/load functionality in DokSNES :) | 18:06 |
| VDVsx | interesting, someone from Google's Partnerships Team is registered for the summit o_0 | 18:06 |
| javispedro | wazd: noted | 18:06 |
| wazd | javispedro:You can bind it to zoom buttons for example :) | 18:07 |
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| wazd | javispedro: have you seen that Flashback for iPhone costs 5 bucks?) | 18:07 |
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| javispedro | wazd: I don't even know what's that | 18:08 |
| javispedro | ah | 18:08 |
| javispedro | I seee. | 18:08 |
| Stskeeps | VDVsx: they are in odd places sometimes | 18:08 |
| RST38h | VDVsx: I am sure there will be a passionate speech from 'em | 18:08 |
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| VDVsx | lol | 18:08 |
| wazd | javispedro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EauQflxrZH0 | 18:08 |
| RST38h | VDVsx: Meanwhile, looks like N900 has got an IR transmitter, so you may be interested to add support ;) | 18:09 |
| RST38h | VDVsx: BTW if you add IR support to BlueMaemo, will you have to rename it to VioletMaemo? =) | 18:09 |
| javispedro | wazd: but the iphone version is not emulated, it's native from what I read | 18:09 |
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| VDVsx | RST38h, lol :P | 18:09 |
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| wazd | javispedro: well, thanks to DokSNES emu it runs on n800 just like native :D | 18:11 |
| javispedro | :) | 18:12 |
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| * RST38h wonders if BT HID devices still lag on Fremantle | 18:13 | |
| aquatix | wow, that game looks awesome | 18:13 |
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| RST38h | Maemo team made its best effort insisting that the problem does not exist on Diablo, related to a particular keyboard brand etc | 18:14 |
| RST38h | (in spite of multiple people reporting it, with BT and USB keyboards alike) | 18:14 |
| * javispedro likes to hear that even the partition size is still negotiable at this stage | 18:15 | |
| RST38h | javispedro: you can resize later as you want, it is still part of mmc2 | 18:16 |
| VDVsx | RST38h, read somewhere that HID isn't a supported profile by default | 18:16 |
| RST38h | VDVsx: Eh??? | 18:16 |
| RST38h | No way? | 18:16 |
| VDVsx | you have to hack something AFAIK | 18:17 |
| javispedro | RST38h, yeah, but won't somebody think of the users!?! ;) | 18:17 |
| RST38h | Here goes quick desktop replacement use case... | 18:17 |
| javispedro | (either way I don't really have an opinion) | 18:18 |
| aquatix | VDVsx: the fsck? | 18:18 |
| RST38h | javis: screw the users, it is the canonical way to handle them | 18:18 |
| VDVsx | RST38h, http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_Summit_2009/Submissions#Hacking_officially_unsupported_Bluetooth_profiles_to_work_in_Fremantle | 18:18 |
| ziyourenxiang | google schoogle | 18:18 |
| ziyourenxiang | sorry, didn't realise i was 1hour behind :-) | 18:19 |
| derf | RST38h: At least with Maemo the users have a fighting chance to fix things on their own. | 18:19 |
| RST38h | No keyboard. No tethering. Aaaarghhh | 18:19 |
| * RST38h facepalms | 18:19 | |
| RST38h | "act of changing config files and random hacking" | 18:20 |
| javispedro | RST38h, as you can see, Maemo loves that "screw the users" motto too :) | 18:20 |
| RST38h | Absolutely | 18:20 |
| derf | Everyone does. | 18:20 |
| X-Fade | Sounds like a nice Extras package to me ;) | 18:20 |
| derf | It's only natural. Their interests are only tangentially related to yours. | 18:20 |
| * RST38h can see those trackers coming to bugzilla, with the vengeance | 18:20 | |
| VDVsx | should be easy to change, dunno why it isn't supported | 18:20 |
| javispedro | Sounds like Engadget complaining in its first review... | 18:21 |
| javispedro | s/its/their | 18:21 |
| RST38h | VDVsx: but Diablo also has support for these in UI | 18:21 |
| X-Fade | If Johan can show those working at a presentation, we can package it too. | 18:21 |
| RST38h | VDVsx: Of course you can hack them to work, but will there be the status icons, device selection, etc? | 18:21 |
| X-Fade | RST38h: Something for bluemaemo ;) | 18:22 |
| RST38h | Ok, I have fixed stupid WinXP boot sequence, time to go home | 18:22 |
| VDVsx | jhe, why isn't HID supported in Fremantle, can we have some valid explanation ? ^^ :) | 18:23 |
| RST38h | VDVsx: You can, a moment | 18:23 |
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| RST38h | VDVsx: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3359 (I have no idea why they dropped the tethering though) | 18:24 |
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| Stskeeps | should be fairly easy to readd though | 18:24 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: simple reason is probably time | 18:25 |
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| VDVsx | RST38h, well, I've controlled my n810 with my OM and never noticed that, only happens for some KB ? | 18:26 |
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| RST38h | VDVsx: Seems to depend on the application and overall load | 18:26 |
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| VDVsx | humm | 18:26 |
| RST38h | VDVsx: Gtk dialogs with a lot of widgets are the worst | 18:26 |
| RST38h | VDVsx: Emulators and games are unplayable too, the kbd lags too much | 18:26 |
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| X-Fade | I only tested my bt keyboard with the terminal and that worked fine. | 18:26 |
| RST38h | Terminal kinda works, especially if you turn off all the other apps | 18:27 |
| X-Fade | But bt isn't low latency anyway? | 18:27 |
| RST38h | Symbian has no problems with bt keyboards. | 18:27 |
| RST38h | Latency or not. | 18:27 |
| RST38h | Besides, Maemo seems to have the same problem with USB keyboards (see reports) | 18:28 |
| Stskeeps | probably HIM's fault | 18:28 |
| X-Fade | It can even be that the bt daemon has a too low priority ;) | 18:28 |
| VDVsx | humm, so probably isn't a problem with the profile himself, but we have fast HW now :P | 18:28 |
| javispedro | I can't see why it does not happen with the builtin keyb then | 18:28 |
| javispedro | ? | 18:28 |
| RST38h | X-Fade: There are several possibilities - HIM (as Sts says), the Gtk event loop, the scheduling, etc | 18:28 |
| RST38h | javis: Does not seem to happen with builtin one | 18:29 |
| RST38h | javis: but then you can't touch-type on the built in keyboard | 18:29 |
| RST38h | javis: so it is difficult to tell for sure if it happens | 18:29 |
| RST38h | ok, home calls | 18:30 |
| VDVsx | they (nokians) should know ;) | 18:30 |
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| lardman | bbl | 18:44 |
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| Ramady | is it easy to port a linux application to maemo | 18:54 |
| ccooke | Ramady: depends on the app | 18:54 |
| Stskeeps | if you have a machoistic streak, yeah | 18:54 |
| ccooke | console apps, for instance, generally don't need much porting at all | 18:55 |
| jhe | VDVsx: iirc the reason was related to lack of testing resources and the need to get rid of anything which isn't absolutely critical. but don't quote me on this :) | 18:55 |
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| VDVsx | jhe, so the plugin will be only disabled at the conf file level ? | 18:56 |
| jhe | VDVsx: yes. the bluez package installs it but it's disabled in /etc/bluetooth/main.conf | 18:56 |
| VDVsx | ah, ok, np then ;) | 18:56 |
| Ramady | what makes an application difficult to be ported | 18:56 |
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| jhe | VDVsx: however last time I checked it seems we may have something wrong the the X server config. I need to check with oliver about this (maybe he could even join in to the session if my proposal gets approved) | 18:57 |
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| VDVsx | jhe, ok, thanks :) | 18:58 |
| jhe | no problem | 18:58 |
| ccooke | Ramady: any number of things. Assumptions on screen size, use of libraries that aren't ported yet, use of toolkits that aren't holdonised... | 18:58 |
| ccooke | Ramady: what's the app? | 18:59 |
| usul | microsoft word? | 18:59 |
| ccooke | usul: *laugh* | 19:01 |
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| Ramady | I have no specific application in my mind but I like to have linux in my pocket | 19:01 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Ramady, for the most part they just need to be compiled. | 19:01 |
| Jaffa | Sheesh - I can't upload an ODP doc to Google Docs | 19:01 |
| ccooke | Ramady: Well, for instance... Pretty much anything console-mode will work with nothing but a recompile. | 19:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | Of course most of them wont be very usable @ 800x480 on a 3.5" screen. | 19:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | But the rest is just gravy, really. | 19:02 |
| usul | ctorrent for eg | 19:02 |
| Ramady | Open office | 19:02 |
| VDVsx | jhe, the only problem that I see here, is that we need to restart the BlueZ subsystem in order to enable/disable plugins :( | 19:02 |
| ccooke | Ramady: X apps will work after recompilation, but will not support some of the tablet's features properly (they might not work well with the task switcher, say) | 19:02 |
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| usul | has anyone tried OO? | 19:02 |
| johnsq | Hi | 19:02 |
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| ccooke | Ramady: to get full support, they need to use hildon-aware libraries. | 19:03 |
| mgedmin | on maemo? I've seen people do presentations with OO during the last Maemo Summit | 19:03 |
| usul | last i remember someone had abiword almost stable | 19:03 |
| usul | OO on a tablet? | 19:03 |
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| usul | maemo should play a floppy drive sound when swapping | 19:05 |
| jhe | VDVsx: true. that could be a feature (loading/unloading during runtime) worth suggesting upstream. otoh we haven't encountered too many use cases for it yet but at least the maemo one seems pretty valid. | 19:05 |
| mgedmin | usul: T-shirt! | 19:05 |
| mgedmin | with that quote | 19:05 |
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| usul | at least that way i'd have some ingrained patience when switching to browser | 19:05 |
| * mgedmin would buy | 19:05 | |
| usul | haha | 19:05 |
| VDVsx | jhe, my app need that too ;) | 19:05 |
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| johnsq | usul: but no fault of the hardware. | 19:07 |
| usul | fault of evil webmonkeys, flash and js | 19:08 |
| Ramady | I did no see any office software in Maemo official site | 19:08 |
| usul | you know, "office software" contains a gigantic amount of expectations for a handheld device | 19:09 |
| Ramady | What people usually use for creating documents | 19:09 |
| Stskeeps | Ramady: it can read powerpoint/excel/word afaik with a 3rd party program | 19:09 |
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| vladovg | any one traiet abiword | 19:09 |
| usul | happily, i have no contacts who insist on .doc | 19:10 |
| usul | check talk.maemo.org for abiword status, afaik | 19:10 |
| vladovg | its working great | 19:10 |
| usul | what version / release date? | 19:11 |
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| Ramady | thank yuo guys you are very helpful | 19:11 |
| vladovg | faind it in app manager | 19:11 |
| vladovg | 2.7.6 | 19:12 |
| vladovg | 0hub3 | 19:13 |
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| vladovg | ay have added mani app suorces | 19:14 |
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| vladovg | and its working great | 19:14 |
| usul | ty vladovg | 19:15 |
| vladovg | ? | 19:15 |
| usul | i hope word processors die out completely some day, along with printers | 19:15 |
| usul | for the info | 19:15 |
| usul | last i tried abiword was 2007 | 19:16 |
| vladovg | glad ay kane help | 19:17 |
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| vladovg | ay getting a lot help from yo gais | 19:17 |
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| amr | yo yo yo | 19:26 |
| amr | i leave for a week and the n900 is announced | 19:26 |
| amr | woowoo | 19:26 |
| ShellEvil | :) | 19:26 |
| ShellEvil | But not as of yet picked up by carriers. | 19:26 |
| ShellEvil | But... | 19:26 |
| amr | what have i missed!"? | 19:27 |
| amr | im watching the video now :o | 19:27 |
| ShellEvil | amr: The laser cannon was an unexpected feature. | 19:27 |
| frals | i think you have a few dozen videos to watch ;-) | 19:27 |
| amr | ooo | 19:27 |
| amr | i love videos, link me up | 19:27 |
| amr | ! | 19:27 |
| ShellEvil | Seriously - it has everything you might want on a phone. | 19:27 |
| johnsq | amr: time to rob a bank | 19:27 |
| usul | youtube, n900 | 19:27 |
| ShellEvil | Apart from magnetometer, ability to work in the US on 3G networks other than t-mobile | 19:27 |
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| vladovg | my personal ay dont like so mach the900 dont like the aidia with gsm modul | 19:28 |
| ShellEvil | and being half the price | 19:28 |
| frals | http://www.youtube.com/user/MForumRu this guy got a few nice ones | 19:28 |
| usul | "gimme links" sheesh | 19:28 |
| vladovg | it is not a tablet ani mor | 19:28 |
| amr | :P | 19:28 |
| amr | it isnt? | 19:28 |
| amr | is it an actual phone now? | 19:28 |
| ShellEvil | yes. | 19:28 |
| usul | and it has speakers | 19:28 |
| vladovg | its lucking like somo krapi n series | 19:28 |
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| amr | :< | 19:28 |
| usul | and it has a display | 19:28 |
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| amr | i liked the fact it wasnt a phone | 19:29 |
| vladovg | smal scrin | 19:29 |
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| usul | let me type everything the n900 has for you amr | 19:29 |
| frals | i dont see how adding a gsm-chip makes it worse tbh | 19:29 |
| usul | it will take some time | 19:29 |
| amr | well i wasnt really ever interested in a tablet being my phone | 19:29 |
| vladovg | ay have olmost 20 pda from now | 19:29 |
| ShellEvil | amr: don't have to use it. | 19:29 |
| amr | it doesnt make it any worse | 19:29 |
| ShellEvil | amr: well - other than price of course | 19:29 |
| vladovg | and 1-2 with gsm moduls | 19:29 |
| simula | it's smaller than the 810 | 19:30 |
| frals | put it in offline mode and you wont notice the gsm i guess ;) | 19:30 |
| amr | dare i ask the price? | 19:30 |
| usul | ups the price a bit - but with a flat data plan, n900 could loosen my wallet | 19:30 |
| ShellEvil | amr: 499euro, 699$ | 19:30 |
| frals | 500€ before taxes n stuff | 19:30 |
| amr | fuck. | 19:30 |
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| ShellEvil | or is it 599e | 19:30 |
| ShellEvil | and 499 pounds | 19:30 |
| usul | heavy phone | 19:30 |
| vladovg | 600 euro in europe | 19:31 |
| johnsq | amazon.de 599.99 | 19:31 |
| amr | i like the android style desktop | 19:31 |
| vladovg | 900 $ | 19:31 |
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| frals | closer to 599€ in sweden if i convert SEK to € from nokia.se | 19:31 |
| usul | n900 uses a neutron-star case | 19:31 |
| usul | keep all objects 6 meters away | 19:31 |
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| usul | btw why do so many youtube commenters want a crapacatice screen? | 19:32 |
| usul | crapacitive | 19:33 |
| mgedmin | because iphone has one | 19:33 |
| amr | the ui seems so much better | 19:33 |
| qwerty12_N810 | usul: you answered your own question: they're YouTube commenters :) | 19:33 |
| frals | because engadget is in love with it due to iphone having it, i think | 19:33 |
| * mgedmin is know to have referred to his n800's touchscreen as "stabscreen" | 19:33 | |
| mgedmin | since you had to use A LOT OF FORCE to force stylus taps to be noticed | 19:33 |
| mgedmin | and that's after adjusting sensitivity to the maximum | 19:33 |
| frals | by the looks the n900 screen seems pretty sensitive thou | 19:34 |
| usul | mgedmin, i think there was some manufacturing variance on n800 screens | 19:34 |
| mgedmin | I don't seem to have the same problem with my n810 | 19:34 |
| mgedmin | neither the new one nor the old one with the touchscreen replaced | 19:34 |
| usul | you have seen the sketches on tmo with dead-zones? | 19:34 |
| mgedmin | (the new one suffered from a fall to the floor and now the stand doesn't have intermediate locking positions) | 19:35 |
| amr | oo and FINALLY a calendar | 19:35 |
| usul | my n810 has survived 6 crashes to concrete/pavement | 19:35 |
| amr | and a nice one by the looks of it | 19:35 |
| usul | and the n810 screen is amayingly scratchproof | 19:36 |
| usul | z | 19:36 |
| amr | i love my n810 | 19:36 |
| * mgedmin once decided to test the scratchability of his first 770 | 19:37 | |
| * mgedmin discovered that the screen can be very easily scratched if you push the plastic stylus a bit too hard | 19:37 | |
| amr | lol | 19:37 |
| * mgedmin stopped testing such things intentionally | 19:37 | |
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| * javispedro suggest you test if it blends instead. | 19:38 | |
| usul | i was sad they dropped the aluminum shell, but the n810 doesnt need it | 19:38 |
| usul | it can go in a pocket with keys | 19:38 |
| * mgedmin wouldn't | 19:38 | |
| vladovg | haha | 19:38 |
| * Stskeeps hopes n900 comes with a pouch | 19:39 | |
| * mgedmin assumes it will -- every prior device did | 19:39 | |
| usul | i think i will have the most beat-up n810 in amsterdam | 19:39 |
| vladovg | ay protect may like my ays | 19:39 |
| mgedmin | although phones usually don't | 19:39 |
| mgedmin | hmm, is n900 more like a phone or more like a tablet? | 19:39 |
| simula | phone | 19:39 |
| vladovg | n97 | 19:39 |
| frals | mobile computer, duh! ;) | 19:39 |
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| johnsq | mgedmin: screen too small | 19:39 |
| Mek | in its pouch you can throw an n810 on the street with 30km/h from 1.5 meters up without any noticable effects :P | 19:39 |
| vladovg | *8)3 | 19:39 |
| vladovg | like | 19:39 |
| Jucato | tablet with phone features | 19:39 |
| * Jucato hides from Mek | 19:40 | |
| Mek | Jucato: why? :) | 19:40 |
| * luke-jr wonders what it will take for some company to create a N900-SL860 hybrid | 19:40 | |
| mgedmin | hey, does it charge from microUSB, or does it also have a standard thin nokia charger slot? | 19:40 |
| simula | usb | 19:40 |
| Mek | n900 only has microUSB | 19:40 |
| frals | only the usb | 19:40 |
| mgedmin | hmm | 19:40 |
| vladovg | usb2 | 19:40 |
| vladovg | host | 19:41 |
| Mek | but it can't be usb host and charge at the same time | 19:41 |
| usul | has anyone recovered a stolen n810 by ssh-ing in and getting gps coordinates? :) | 19:41 |
| Mek | getting gps coordinates from a n810's gps? :P | 19:41 |
| vladovg | haha | 19:41 |
| usul | point taken | 19:41 |
| jaska | my thoughts exactly | 19:41 |
| luke-jr | usul: unlikely | 19:41 |
| frals | awesome, need to get an app like that for the n900... :D | 19:41 |
| luke-jr | ... | 19:42 |
| amr | lol the zoom gesture is stupid | 19:42 |
| usul | what would be better | 19:42 |
| usul | show us your brilliance | 19:42 |
| amr | the pinch thing from apple is actually quite nice | 19:42 |
| amr | lots of things use it | 19:43 |
| Jucato | requires multi-touch | 19:43 |
| amr | sigh | 19:43 |
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| luke-jr | so implement multi-touch | 19:43 |
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| mgedmin | how hard can it be? | 19:44 |
| Stskeeps | or two touch? | 19:44 |
| simula | the hardware doesn't support multi-touch | 19:44 |
| * mgedmin remembers that sarcasm doesn't work well in a text-only media | 19:44 | |
| vladovg | whi not 3 ? | 19:44 |
| Jucato | yeah two touch would be enough for pinching :) | 19:44 |
| luke-jr | mgedmin: well, multi-touch on resistive screens is at least patented | 19:44 |
| mgedmin | *medium | 19:44 |
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| mgedmin | but but but patents encourage innovation! | 19:44 |
| vladovg | bye | 19:45 |
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| usul | Strphan Kinsella is an IP lawyer with interesting thoughts on patents | 19:45 |
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| usul | Stephan | 19:45 |
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| luke-jr | simula: how can it not? | 19:45 |
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| simula | looking for my source | 19:48 |
| ShellEvil | four wire resistive screens - the majority - can return at best a rough boundingbox of all touches | 19:49 |
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| usul | 80 seconds to switch from xchat to browser and close 5 windows | 19:49 |
| mgedmin | swapping is fun | 19:49 |
| mgedmin | diablo lets you close windows without switching to the app; what about fremantle? | 19:50 |
| Stskeeps | same | 19:50 |
| usul | pausing inactive webpages, not an option? | 19:50 |
| amr | the double tap for zooming is fine | 19:51 |
| amr | this corkscrew shit is awfult ho | 19:51 |
| luke-jr | mgedmin: even so, the app needs to swap out to close.. | 19:51 |
| mgedmin | true | 19:51 |
| mgedmin | but swapping in code needed to close may be faster than swapping in code needed to redraw + code needed to close | 19:52 |
| mgedmin | in theory | 19:52 |
| luke-jr | probably in the same page | 19:52 |
| usul | u are browser expert here right mgedmin? | 19:52 |
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| amr | the device hands on still show it stuttering when scrolling and on this panoramic desktop thing | 19:52 |
| usul | yes | 19:53 |
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| amr | what a let down | 19:53 |
| mgedmin | usul: you're thinking about timeless (or timeless_mbp he was using recently for reasons I don't know) | 19:53 |
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| usul | it is running apps | 19:53 |
| usul | oh yes, sorry mgedmin | 19:54 |
| Stskeeps | mgedmin: it's simple - macbook pro :P | 19:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | mgedmin, MacBook Pro | 19:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | amr, the software isn't final. | 19:54 |
| amr | phew | 19:54 |
| mgedmin | ah; I thought it was a nickserv collision or something | 19:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | amr, apparently the software on the demo units is actually out of date. | 19:54 |
| amr | lol | 19:55 |
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| usul | btw the interface is exactly what i hoped they would do | 19:55 |
| amr | i hope it does well | 19:55 |
| amr | the ui seems thought out, consistent and pretty | 19:55 |
| amr | a step up | 19:55 |
| usul | i like how nokia generally follows my telepathic instructions | 19:56 |
| amr | lol | 19:56 |
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| mgedmin | usul: can you please think about them sending a n900 to me? | 19:56 |
| jaska | and me | 19:56 |
| Myrtti | Me too | 19:56 |
| luke-jr | heck, if there's no cost, I wouldn't mind one | 19:56 |
| luke-jr | :p | 19:56 |
| Corsac | count me in | 19:56 |
| usul | dont waste my powers | 19:57 |
| luke-jr | usul: more importantly, get them to put in a decent keyboard someday | 19:57 |
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| usul | the 3 line kbd could work ok. who here has used it? | 19:57 |
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| luke-jr | usul: decent kb = http://www.brighthand.com/images/Sharp_Zaurus_R_1_L.jpg | 19:58 |
| Mek | the international/us version with 4 arrow keys was not too bad... the spanish version with only 2 buttons for all arrows was a bit more annoying... | 19:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | usul, everybody I've heard of whose used the 3-row US version has liked it more than the N810 version. | 19:59 |
| usul | no dpad is awesome too :) after all the complaints... "ok, we wont include one next time" :) | 19:59 |
| usul | cool GA :) | 19:59 |
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| usul | luke-jr you would prefer a clamshell landscape n900? :) | 19:59 |
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| luke-jr | usul: by far | 20:00 |
| luke-jr | clamshell also protects the screen better than having to slide it in a case | 20:00 |
| usul | ok, they would then sell at least one unit | 20:00 |
| usul | i know the clamshell advantages. but they dont look cool. need to look cool to sell units. sorry | 20:02 |
| usul | did you order a pandora luke-jr? | 20:02 |
| luke-jr | sure they do | 20:02 |
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| luke-jr | usul: I don't pre-order anything | 20:02 |
| Mizoo | hi | 20:02 |
| Mizoo | is there any developper on Smartq devices ? | 20:03 |
| Stskeeps | -> #mer | 20:04 |
| Mizoo | thanks ;) | 20:04 |
| usul | soes anyone know what physocal constraints prevented them from letting n900 slide open 1cm more and yield 4 rows? | 20:05 |
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| pcfe | how does one list all files belonging to a pkg? (not sure how, but I just lost my /etc/openvpn/maemo-update-resolvconf and want to check my sanity as I think that file is from the openvpn pkg) | 20:05 |
| usul | dpkg - something | 20:05 |
| qwerty12_N810 | dpkg -L | 20:06 |
| Mek | `dpkg -L packagename` | 20:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | usul, Peter said something about consistent keyboard designs across devices. | 20:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | usul, so it may have actually been able to accomodate a 4-row keyboard. :\ | 20:06 |
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| GeneralAntilles | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYrSv2pA95o | 20:06 |
| pcfe | usul, qwerty12_N810: Thanks | 20:07 |
| usul | Id have to give away my n810 or go nuts switching | 20:07 |
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| Stskeeps | keyboard we felt was a lot better than n810 one though | 20:07 |
| usul | cool.. looks like more space btwn keys for less typos | 20:08 |
| Jaffa | Keyboard on the N900 is leagues better than N810 | 20:08 |
| Jaffa | Did a side-by-side comparison at Nokia World, and I couldn't go back to the N810 afterwards | 20:09 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: How does it compare to E90 though? | 20:09 |
| jaska | my big sausagefingers dont work terribly well on n810 | 20:09 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: Dunno, sorry | 20:09 |
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| usul | great link GA: "i dont think it was some kind of religious decision" LOL | 20:11 |
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| pcfe | if -L shows me /etc/openvpn/maemo-update-resolvconf being in openvpn pkg and I remove he package and then re-install it, but /etc/openvpn is still empty after install, what am I doing wrong? | 20:14 |
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| mgedmin | pcfe: did you manually rm /etc/openvpn/*? | 20:15 |
| pcfe | mgedmin: after I uninstalled the package but before re-installing it, yes | 20:16 |
| mgedmin | if so, to get it back, you'll need to reinstall the deb with --force-confmiss | 20:16 |
| mgedmin | dpkg -i /path/to/file.deb --force-confmiss | 20:16 |
| pcfe | mgedmin: thank you | 20:16 |
| mgedmin | or use midnight commander's built-in .deb browser to go into the .deb and copy the config files manually | 20:16 |
| pcfe | (that will teach me to do manual cleans when trying to make sure docs for end users are idiot proof) | 20:16 |
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| mgedmin | I wonder if you can ask apt to pass the --force-confmiss stuff down to dpkg... | 20:17 |
| RST38h | Peter sounds almost shy in this video | 20:17 |
| RST38h | Mhm | 20:17 |
| mgedmin | it's a really irritating use case; people assume that they can rm the config files they damaged in order to get apt/dpkg to restore pristine versions | 20:17 |
| RST38h | Must be the Finnish thing | 20:17 |
| pcfe | apt-get probablyt has a download only flag, let me see | 20:17 |
| mgedmin | instead dpkg assumes that if you rm, you want it *gone* forever | 20:17 |
| jrocha | -d is the flasg | 20:17 |
| jrocha | flasg* | 20:17 |
| jrocha | flag* | 20:18 |
| jrocha | shit! :) | 20:18 |
| pcfe | mgedmin: dpkg makes assumption on what I do _after_ I uninstalled a package?!? | 20:18 |
| mgedmin | dpkg gives precedence to the sysadmin over files in /etc | 20:18 |
| mgedmin | installation status doesn't matter | 20:18 |
| mgedmin | or, rather, dpkg distinguishes "purged" and "removed" | 20:18 |
| pcfe | coming from the rpm world I expected it to remove /etc/openvpn itself when I uninstalled the paclage foirst time | 20:18 |
| jrocha | bye guys, see you tomorrow | 20:18 |
| mgedmin | where "removed" means everything was removed but /etc files are kept and still maintained | 20:18 |
| * pcfe learned sth new | 20:19 | |
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| javispedro | ~seen pupnik | 20:23 |
| infobot | pupnik <n=pupnik@unaffiliated/pupnik> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 4d 18h 11m 59s ago, saying: 'gives you a feel for what the kidz think'. | 20:23 |
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| * mgedmin thinks the irreco demonstration successfully demonstrates that the software is way too complicated... | 20:24 | |
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| mgedmin | still cool | 20:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, he's German. | 20:26 |
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| pcfe | mgedmin: hmm, this is a bit more hassle than I thought. Is my presumption wrong that 'apt-get purge openvpn && apt-get install openvpn' would be the fastest way to solve this (as opposed to looking for a downloadonly flag) | 20:27 |
| mgedmin | you're absolutely right! | 20:27 |
| mgedmin | I only recently learned about --force-confmiss | 20:28 |
| mgedmin | I guess in my desire to show off the knowledge I completely forgot about this older and clearer solution | 20:28 |
| javispedro | irreco + portrait mode = my m130 can finally rest in peace | 20:28 |
| javispedro | hopefully the ir transmitter is real and has proper tx power | 20:29 |
| mgedmin | bloody xchat gives me the maemo summit link instead of the irc logs link | 20:29 |
| pcfe | hmm, invalid operation purge | 20:29 |
| javispedro | "apt-get --purge uninstall" iirc | 20:29 |
| mgedmin | newer apt has apt-get purge; older apt needed apt-get remove --purge | 20:30 |
| javispedro | mgedmin, newer apt is aptitude | 20:30 |
| mgedmin | nah, aptitude is a weird beast | 20:30 |
| javispedro | apt-get never got purge, unless you're talking about squeeze or sid | 20:30 |
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| mgedmin | apt 0.7.20.2ubuntu6 has purge | 20:31 |
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| javispedro | ah well, seems you're right, sorry | 20:31 |
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| mgedmin | maemo apt might not have it | 20:31 |
| mgedmin | it was a rather recent addition | 20:31 |
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| javispedro | so, why did they put ir in there? O.o | 20:32 |
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| pcfe | apt-get remove --purge openvpn seems top have worked | 20:33 |
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| pcfe | Thanks for your help people, my docs are now hopefully idiot proof | 20:48 |
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| RST38h | javis: they had to compensate for the lack of BT HID? :) | 20:58 |
| javispedro | still, something as visible... | 20:59 |
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| wazd | wow! FM Radio in an iPod!) | 21:03 |
| * wazd waits for Archangels :D | 21:03 | |
| asj_wrk- | no no it's a video camera with the lens of the size of a pin head | 21:05 |
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| glass | wazd: 160gb classic made me chuckle. since i already got a 160gb classic... | 21:06 |
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| * RST38h promises to himself to stop watching n900 walkthrough videos | 21:08 | |
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| wazd | RST38h: pointless drooling :) | 21:12 |
| RST38h | exactly | 21:13 |
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| frals | i know the feeling >_< | 21:14 |
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| _berto_ | "Nokia will not customize the N900 for carriers" http://www.fiercewireless.com/story/nokia-will-forgo-carrier-customization-n900/2009-09-09?utm_medium=rss&utm_source=rss&cmp-id=OTC-RSS-FW0 | 21:32 |
| _berto_ | i guess it's official now | 21:32 |
| timeless_mbp | _berto_: who is being cited there? | 21:33 |
| _berto_ | http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE58831A20090909 | 21:33 |
| _berto_ | David Rivas apparently | 21:34 |
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| _berto_ | "Nokia's vice president for devices R&D" | 21:34 |
| * timeless_mbp chuckles | 21:34 | |
| AndrewFBlack | GeneralAntilles, Ping | 21:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | AndrewFBlack, pong? | 21:35 |
| AndrewFBlack | GeneralAntilles, talked to guys at FLS and they said they will give me all the free tickets I need for people just let them know how many are coming | 21:36 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Preliminarily I'll say 3 (me plus 2 friends) | 21:37 |
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| AndrewFBlack | Looks like someone on forums is coming as well | 21:38 |
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| RST38h | The reason for not customizing, given by nokia honcho, was "to avoid having to maintain multiple versions" | 21:42 |
| RST38h | whether it is a real reason or a made up one, decide for yourself | 21:43 |
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| GeneralAntilles | I suspect that the whole (applications that you can't ever remove) thing is an issue, too. | 21:44 |
| * mgedmin is considering changing his hotel booking to Hotel Art | 21:44 | |
| mgedmin | free wifi! | 21:44 |
| ShellEvil | And if you do want to customise - writing the needed trusted code model to allow it to be done. | 21:45 |
| RST38h | General: Lockdown has never been cited by any of the Nokia people, so far | 21:46 |
| RST38h | General: Only "customization" | 21:46 |
| RST38h | So I would not assume that they necessarily mean lockdown | 21:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Right | 21:46 |
| ShellEvil | I would asume that carriers mean lockdown when they say customise. | 21:47 |
| RST38h | not necessarily | 21:47 |
| ShellEvil | As in - at least lockdown the added menu items/... | 21:47 |
| *** jhford is now known as zz_jhford | 21:48 | |
| ShellEvil | Also - in principle - the carrier could simply buy 10K phones at a _steep_ discount, and reflash surely? | 21:48 |
| RST38h | carriers do not do that | 21:48 |
| *** ShellEvil is now known as SpeedEvil | 21:49 | |
| RST38h | why would they? there is always samsung, lg, etc perfectly ready to customize their phones for them | 21:49 |
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| RST38h | why would a carrier pay money to hire special people to modify some special phone model? | 21:49 |
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| pen1234 | http://www.thaiadpoint.com/tap8.1/bin/redir.php?p=2042&l=1357&u_id=363435 | 21:51 |
| *** tiagofalcao is now known as tiagofalcao[AWAY | 21:51 | |
| RST38h | pen1234 <--- spammer | 21:53 |
| pen1234 | http://www.thaiadpoint.com/tap8.1/bin/redir.php?p=2042&l=1357&u_id=363435 | 21:54 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o GeneralAntilles | 21:54 | |
| *** pen1234 was kicked by GeneralAntilles (GeneralAntilles) | 21:54 | |
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| wazd | ~burn pen1234 | 21:54 |
| *** GeneralAntilles sets mode: +b pen1234!*@* | 21:54 | |
| * infobot pours gasoline all over pen1234, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze | 21:54 | |
| *** pen1234 was kicked by GeneralAntilles (GeneralAntilles) | 21:54 | |
| qwerty12_N810 | FINISH HIM | 21:54 |
| jaska | just dont finnish him | 21:54 |
| RST38h | *!*@*.revip.asianet.co.th | 21:54 |
| jaska | dont want him here | 21:54 |
| tlax | kynä1234 ? | 21:55 |
| *** GeneralAntilles sets mode: +b *!*@*.revip.asianet.co.th | 21:55 | |
| *** GeneralAntilles sets mode: -b pen1234!*@* | 21:55 | |
| SpeedEvil | RST38h: I was assuming that the N900 was a wild success, and people were storming mobile shops worldwide demanding it. | 21:55 |
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| *** GeneralAntilles sets mode: -o GeneralAntilles | 21:55 | |
| Myrtti | he's been reported to #freenode and will undoubtedly be catching the k-train soon | 21:56 |
| fnordianslip | lol. i wondered what all the strange noises were coming out of my macbook pro, whooshing and shooting sounds. i guess it was the spammer going to meet his maker ;-) | 21:56 |
| Myrtti | there we go | 21:57 |
| Myrtti | GeneralAntilles: take the ban off ;-) | 21:57 |
| *** ChanServ sets mode: +o GeneralAntilles | 21:57 | |
| *** GeneralAntilles sets mode: -b *!*@*.revip.asianet.co.th | 21:57 | |
| *** GeneralAntilles sets mode: -o GeneralAntilles | 21:57 | |
| RST38h | Speed: I would not assume | 21:58 |
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| wazd | Apple shoud put a camera on Shuffle | 22:01 |
| wazd | That would be shocking innovation :D | 22:02 |
| johnsq | one more unused camera | 22:02 |
| RST38h | wazd: considering where women usually clip it... | 22:03 |
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| asj_wrk- | yay, pixel porn since it's 640x480 | 22:04 |
| wazd | The weirdest thing that nano's camera is actually on the bottom | 22:04 |
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| wazd | I don't really know how "camera man" should hold that tiny plank to see the screen and not cover the camera | 22:04 |
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| wazd | iTouch 32Gb is $300 now, well, kinda fair | 22:08 |
| johnsq | wazd: cheaper than n900 | 22:08 |
| RST38h | $400 for 64GB | 22:08 |
| wazd | johnsq: well, n900 has much superior hardware | 22:09 |
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| wazd | RST38h: well, 64gb n900 can be easily done with cards :) | 22:11 |
| roundyz | Can you run maemo in a vm like qemu? | 22:12 |
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| johnsq | roundyz: yes, look in the wiki | 22:12 |
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| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: countdown-home 0.4-4 is making its way to extras-devel | 22:24 |
| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: It should have all the corrections you noted - thanks for that, BTW | 22:24 |
| timeless_mbp | :) | 22:24 |
| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: 0.4-3 may be in -devel now, and contains the corrections but has a bug when changing the event | 22:25 |
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| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: I should say, it has all the corrections you noted EXCEPT for transparency and multiple desktop support | 22:25 |
| fiferboy | I'll tackle those next. | 22:25 |
| timeless_mbp | did you figure out how to get into that add dialog? | 22:25 |
| timeless_mbp | or rather, how to be in it repeatedly | 22:26 |
| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: No, I have'nt gotten multiple instances working | 22:26 |
| timeless_mbp | ok | 22:26 |
| fiferboy | And transparency SHOULD be working (it is a fairly simple addition) but it crashes hildon-home in scratchbox | 22:27 |
| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: If you could let me know if it looks better in the app manager (icon, name, description) and whether the interface improvements are all working | 22:28 |
| fiferboy | If you have time, of course | 22:28 |
| * timeless_mbp is sick at home... | 22:30 | |
| * timeless_mbp has time | 22:30 | |
| * timeless_mbp does need to try to work on strings a bit | 22:30 | |
| * timeless_mbp pokes Stskeeps | 22:30 | |
| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: That sucks | 22:30 |
| * timeless_mbp looks for anyone else who has maemo5 handy | 22:30 | |
| luke-jr | timeless_mbp: I'm here if you want to send me a N900, then I'd have it handy | 22:31 |
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| * timeless_mbp sighs | 22:31 | |
| timeless_mbp | fiferboy: 0.4-2 is all my device found | 22:32 |
| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: I just got notification from the builder that 0.4-4 finished successfully | 22:34 |
| fiferboy | It might be a little bit before extras-devel picks it up | 22:34 |
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| timeless_mbp | well, 0.4-3 arrived | 22:43 |
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| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: It should have all the fixes, just a bug with saving time and date when editing an event | 22:43 |
| timeless_mbp | oh, did i tell you that the date format looks wrong? :) | 22:43 |
| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: No :) | 22:43 |
| timeless_mbp | ok, it's wrong :) | 22:44 |
| fiferboy | I used the default hildon_date_button, but I didn't really like how it looked | 22:44 |
| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: What format do dates usually take? Is it localized? | 22:44 |
| timeless_mbp | yes it's localized | 22:44 |
| fiferboy | Time, too? | 22:45 |
| timeless_mbp | it should be, yes | 22:45 |
| timeless_mbp | for full, you should use wdgt_va_date_long | 22:45 |
| timeless_mbp | from hildon-libs | 22:45 |
| timeless_mbp | and yuck | 22:46 |
| timeless_mbp | you managed to pull in a 24hr clock on a 12hr device | 22:46 |
| timeless_mbp | so, in the version of strings i have, you have 3 strings available: | 22:46 |
| timeless_mbp | wdgt_va_24h_time | 22:46 |
| timeless_mbp | wdgt_va_12h_time_am | 22:47 |
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| timeless_mbp | wdgt_va_12h_time_pm | 22:47 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm not quite sure how to figure out if you're in 12 hr or 24 hr mode | 22:47 |
| timeless_mbp | but you need to figure it out | 22:47 |
| timeless_mbp | if you're in 24 hr mode, use the first string | 22:47 |
| timeless_mbp | otherwise, figure out if you're in am or pm and use the proper string :) | 22:47 |
| fiferboy | Ok, that makes more sense then what it defaults to | 22:48 |
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| timeless_mbp | fiferboy: an advantage of talking to someone who localized the product recently :) | 22:48 |
| fiferboy | Yes, definitely | 22:48 |
| timeless_mbp | oh, you probably want to do something to prevent people from creating countdowns w/ empty strings | 22:49 |
| timeless_mbp | i seem to have broken your dialog :) | 22:49 |
| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: Got it. | 22:50 |
| fiferboy | Did it look okay in the application manager? | 22:50 |
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| timeless_mbp | no icon, and of course ham itself is broken as someone mentioned | 22:52 |
| timeless_mbp | but otherwise, good :) | 22:52 |
| Proteous | Mmmm, ham | 22:52 |
| fiferboy | I read somewhere that Maemo-Icon-26 worked, but I guess it has to be XB-Maemo-Icon-26 | 22:53 |
| timeless_mbp | fiferboy: you know you can setup your own repository for such testing, right? :) | 22:53 |
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| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: You mean, for test in HAM under scratchbox? | 22:54 |
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| timeless_mbp | well w/ a ham anywhere | 22:58 |
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| timeless_mbp | fiferboy: something bad is happening | 23:01 |
| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: How's that? | 23:01 |
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| timeless_mbp | i'm trying to set the time as 11:04pm,sep 9, 2009 | 23:02 |
| timeless_mbp | but it keeps converting that to 01:01 (time) | 23:02 |
| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: On a new event? | 23:02 |
| timeless_mbp | and the date is "Tuesday 02 January 1" | 23:02 |
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| timeless_mbp | i'm editing an existing event | 23:03 |
| fiferboy | That is broken in version 0.4-3 | 23:03 |
| timeless_mbp | that seems to be "The year 1" | 23:03 |
| timeless_mbp | ok | 23:03 |
| timeless_mbp | also | 23:03 |
| timeless_mbp | if i delete events | 23:03 |
| fiferboy | When 0.4-4 comes through it should work | 23:03 |
| timeless_mbp | the box doesn't shrink | 23:03 |
| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: Yes, vesa pointed that out yesterday. I haven't figured that one out yet | 23:04 |
| timeless_mbp | ok | 23:04 |
| timeless_mbp | lastly, in "edit" mode | 23:04 |
| timeless_mbp | your x is not at the top right corner of your widget | 23:04 |
| timeless_mbp | instead it's at +x pixels to the right of the top left corner | 23:05 |
| timeless_mbp | where x is fixed but i'm too lazy to get out a ruler | 23:05 |
| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: I noticed that too. I think it is something to do with the sizing issue | 23:05 |
| timeless_mbp | at least you don't seem to be crashing desktop :) | 23:06 |
| fiferboy | It looks like it is using the initial widget size, and when it resizes bigger after populating it doesn't change | 23:06 |
| timeless_mbp | sounds likely | 23:06 |
| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: Yes, I fixed the crash on remove! | 23:06 |
| fiferboy | omweather has that "x" alignment problem too | 23:06 |
| * timeless_mbp hasn't installed omweather | 23:06 | |
| timeless_mbp | what's the point, i either have to go out, or i don't | 23:07 |
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| fiferboy | timeless_mbp: wdgt_va_date_long prints the same format as what I had in the SDK, no wonder I was confused | 23:18 |
| fiferboy | They use a simple default format in the SDK | 23:18 |
| timeless_mbp | fiferboy: you want my localization :) | 23:19 |
| timeless_mbp | i can give you .mo files, is that sufficient? | 23:19 |
| timeless_mbp | no packaging because i don't want to deal w/ it atm | 23:19 |
| fiferboy | I think it should be | 23:19 |
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| timeless_mbp | /usr/share/locales/en_GB/LC_MESSAGES | 23:20 |
| timeless_mbp | or something like that | 23:20 |
| * GeneralAntilles looks at the Summer of Code t-shirt. | 23:20 | |
| * GeneralAntilles gives it to his sister. | 23:20 | |
| timeless_mbp | GeneralAntilles: heh | 23:21 |
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| timeless_mbp | i had a maemo shirt or two that i tried to give to my sister | 23:21 |
| timeless_mbp | she didn't take it back w/ her :( | 23:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless_mbp, your maemo shirt is still tops. ;) | 23:21 |
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| * qwerty12_N810 wouldn't want to be walking around in a shirt that says "emo" :) | 23:22 | |
| SpeedEvil | Your ma is emo! | 23:24 |
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| fiferboy | Thanks for all the help, timeless_mbp | 23:33 |
| fiferboy | I'm off | 23:33 |
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| acouto | which packages have to install inside the N810 to compile cpp files? | 23:44 |
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| Jaffa | Mmmm, beer. | 23:47 |
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| lbt | my cat is 16 next month | 23:59 |
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