IRC log of #maemo for Sunday, 2009-08-02

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nomisqwerty12_N810: is that UTF-?6  ?00:46
qwerty12_N810nomis: no, just plain letters with question marks between each one to go with the theme00:48
nomisdamn.  :)00:49
* nomis thought I'd have discovered a new encoding :)00:49
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Macerblah. got outbid on ebay01:36
Macerso i just got an n810 off amazon for 260 (after shipping)01:37
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Maceri still need to get a windshield mount for it01:37
LinuxCodeMacer, there is one in the package01:39
LinuxCodeif its new01:39
LinuxCodenot windshield though01:39
LinuxCodeits screw in01:39
Maceroh really?01:41
Maceryeah.. it's new01:41
Macerdidn't know it was screw in though01:41
Macerthat's fine.. i'm sure i can find a good spot for it01:41
Maceri'll mutilate my dash for it haha01:41
Macera windshield/suction cup one would have probably been better01:42
Macerbut i'm sure they wear quicker than a screw in one01:42
glassand ugly01:42
glassand in the way01:42
glassand under the brake pedal when your granny is driving01:42
glasstheres glue for the purpose tho01:43
Macerthat would suck :)01:43
Macerglass: yah i guess. at least yo ucould avoid screwing it into your dash01:43
Maceri'm going to have to find a good spot for it.. i'm sure it just comes with some plastic screws01:43
Macerto drill through a plastic spot01:43
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glassMacer: yeah i don't see much point in screwing with modern materials available everywhere .. unless you just want to take apart the dash for no good reason :) (could be fun)01:44
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Maceris it a base?01:44
Maceror is it just some plastic frame that you mount the n810 into in the front?01:44
glassi would think that many universal gps mounts are about the n810 size01:45
glassmaybe i'll get a car again sometime..01:45
Maceri mean does it come with a base?01:45
Maceror does it just screw forward into the dash?01:45
Maceri will find pics of it ;)01:46
Maceri hope it comes with a base.. that would look nicer01:46
glasshehe yeah probably best01:46
glassto look for pics01:46
t_s_oi tought the car mount was "modular" so that the attachment end could have a suction cup replacement if needed...01:47
Macert_s_o:  dunno01:48
Maceri'm looking around for what it looks like01:48
t_s_ocould be i got it mixed up with the N800 mount..01:49
Maceryeah. looks like it has a base with screws for it01:49
Macerkind of sucks .. but i'll just go ahead and sell it with the car if i ever sell my car haha01:49
Maceror find a spot on the dash that is easily replaced01:50
Macerand buy a spare plastic piece for it01:50
Macerah well.. bbl01:50
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* GeneralAntilles is so tired of the people on Talk.02:14
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Maceron Talk?02:49
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Macerwtf is Talk?02:50
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mcpii guess talk.maemo.org02:55
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doc|homeis it just me or have there been almost no updates to maemo in a long long time?03:10
doc|home(for the n800)03:10
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Macerdoc|home: there are plenty of updates03:30
Macer:) they just aren't whole operating systems03:30
Maceri would guess on what you would consider an "update"03:31
doc|homeMacer: but I'm not even getting app updates03:31
Macerwell.. when something works.... ?03:31
doc|homethere used to be lots of small application updates, now, nothing in ages03:31
Macerwhy bother updating? look at vista ;)03:31
doc|homeMacer: heh, not for me. e.g. browser crapping out for no good reason03:31
Macerdoc|home: nevrer had a problem with teh browser03:31
doc|homeI've had it just quit03:31
Macerand i'm pretty sure it doesn't matter n800 to n810.. other than a couple more pieces of hardware it's pretty much the same stuff03:32
Macerdoc|home: using swap? ;)03:32
Macermaybe you burned out your sd using the swap or you don't have one?03:32
doc|homeI mentioned the n800 as opposed to what is probably being done for whatever they have planned for after03:32
doc|homeMacer: how do I check?03:32
Macerit's in the config somewhere03:32
Macerunder memory i think?03:32
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* doc|home looks03:32
Maceri know large web sites (that use a lot of mem)03:32
Macerwill crush an n80003:33
Macerand a slow sd doesn't help either03:33
Maceryou should have a class6 at the least a class403:33
doc|homemine doesn't exactly do much, it's mainly an alarm clock + minimal web browsing machine right now03:33
Macer(if you are using the swap)03:33
doc|homeyeah, it's class six03:33
Macerwell.. i know in the maemo settings there is an option to create a swap file on the fat32 sd03:33
doc|homeMacer: hmmm, says 128mb and external virtual memory is unchecked03:34
Macerthe external virtual memory is your sd swap ;)03:34
Macerturn it on.. give it as much as you can.. and try again03:34
doc|homeit's not really reproducible, just happens a bit03:34
doc|hometoo often03:34
Maceryeah.. probably running out of mem03:34
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doc|homeanywho, that's a bit of a digression :) just wondering am I missing minor updates or are they just not coming out?03:35
Macerdoc|home: probably not coming out ;)03:35
Macermaemo is rather stale03:35
Macereverybody is kind of anticipating the next big arm03:35
doc|homeMacer: er, wait, that's not going to wipe out my memory card, is it? :)03:35
Macerjust put a file on it03:35
doc|homeok, cool03:35
doc|homemax is 128mb?03:35
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GeneralAntillesdoc|home, Mer03:40
infobotsomebody said mer was, or on #mer03:40
GeneralAntillesOS2008 is dead03:40
doc|homeGeneralAntilles: is it production ready?03:41
doc|homewell, ok, production not being the right word :)03:41
doc|homeGeneralAntilles: would be nice if there was a way to tell people. I don't follow things that closely. no time :/03:42
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GeneralAntillesdoc|home, is usually decent to catch up.03:48
doc|homeGeneralAntilles: yep, but casual users won't ever check that :/03:48
doc|homei.e. the average consumer03:48
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GeneralAntillesNo, but there'll be a bigger marketing blitz once it's actually production ready03:49
GeneralAntillesExpect to see it on Engadget, etc. ;)03:49
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nai1sirkanyone seen the "mini n97"? Could be the new maemophone?03:49
doc|homeGeneralAntilles: ok, would be nice if the updater itself even just popped up a message03:50
doc|homejust an idea03:50
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nai1sirkI'll just keep on talking:-) It's pictured on engadget, looks way better than the n900 leaked shots, and has the exact same keyboard as the concept one03:52
nai1sirkI'd actually buy this one, if it is the "n900" that is03:52
nai1sirkIt also has a huge tape covering the area where you would find the buttons for switching apps,and return, ig it's identical with n81003:55
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GeneralAntillesdoc|home, that'd require Nokia to certify Mer.03:59
GeneralAntillesdoc|home, not going to happen.03:59
GeneralAntillesdoc|home, besides, it's a very fundamental change in the base system. It'd be like upgrading from Ubuntu to Debian.03:59
GeneralAntillesnai1sirk, highly unlikely.03:59
doc|homeGeneralAntilles: so, we now own unsupported software? :/04:00
GeneralAntillesnai1sirk, those those three buttons on the bottom are Symbian requirements.04:01
GeneralAntillesMaemo is unlikely to have them.04:01
GeneralAntillesAlso: 3.5" was what's likely in the kernel and quoted in all of the rumors.04:01
GeneralAntillesnai1sirk, 800x480 at 3.2" would be unusable.04:02
GeneralAntillesdoc|home, have for a very long time now.04:02
doc|homeGeneralAntilles: great :/04:02
doc|homenai1sirk: link?04:02
nai1sirkThere hasn't been a maemophone, usabilitywise, they would be better of to euse the button design from s6004:02
nai1sirkreuse, not euse:-)04:03
doc|homenai1sirk: thanks04:03
nai1sirkI do agree about the resolution though, it is allready hard to use without holding the device close to your face04:03
nai1sirkon n81004:04
GeneralAntillesnai1sirk, having used S60 5th, I call BS.04:04
nai1sirkI have04:04
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GeneralAntillesThe hardware buttons are excessive.04:04
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GeneralAntillesand only there because Symbian has to have them.04:04
nai1sirkIsn't the n900 to be released soon?04:04
GeneralAntillesNot because they actually add much usability wise.04:04
GeneralAntillesSeptember would be my guess.04:04
nai1sirktake phone, hang up phone?04:04
nai1sirknice to have solid buttons for those04:05
nai1sirkI like buttons04:05
nai1sirkThey have their use04:05
GeneralAntillesI like buttons that are useful.04:05
doc|homeGeneralAntilles: any more info on gsm-type abilities?04:05
GeneralAntillesdoc|home, lots of hints in leaks and code.04:05
GeneralAntillesVoice seems likely to me.04:06
doc|homeI need a new phone-type thing. The openmoko freerunner has been a massive let-down :(04:06
nai1sirkthe two month old leaks look more like a photoshop scetch ontop of n81004:06
GeneralAntillesnai1sirk, that's a concept rendering from a while ago.04:07
GeneralAntillesIt's the information contained in the leak that's more interesting.04:07
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* doc|home out, back later04:07
nai1sirkI really hope that info is wrong. I can tolerate a MID weiging 180 grams, But not a phone04:07
nai1sirksorry, NIT04:07
nai1sirkBut i did mean, not a phone04:08
nai1sirkdamn, i'm confusing myself04:08
nai1sirkpoint is, a tablet can be left in the car, or in the jacket, a phone is often carried in pant pockets. 170-180 grams is unacceptable04:10
GeneralAntillesThe N800 and 770 were 206 and 230 grams respectively. I had no trouble carrying them with phones in my pocket.04:11
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dmzhowdy y'all, anyone have any suggestions on how I can debug an n810 doing bluetooth dialup via cell phone? it use to work on old phone 'out of the box' & at&t, but when i switched to verizon it just doesn't seem to want to work.  i use the phone via bluetooth to my debian laptop all the time & it works great, not sure how maemo does integrated GPRS or what the comm device it sets up for bluetooth serial to phone-modem. any hints greatly05:07
dmz appreciated05:07
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xnt14~seen b-man1607:31
infobotb-man16 <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 10d 1h 23m 1s ago, saying: '  '.07:31
xnt14I just finished b-man's site v2 ;P07:31
xnt14if you still see the old site, just clear your cache for that domain ;)07:32
Macerfucking server keeps freezing up07:33
Macerand i have no idea why07:33
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xnt14Macer, my server?07:34
Luke-Jrxnt14: b-man's site or yours?07:34
Macerxnt14: no.. mine07:34
xnt14Luke-Jr, b-man's site, I coded it ;)07:34
xnt14Macer, :P07:34
Maceri have to find out why07:34
Luke-Jrxnt14: the code looks fail07:34
Luke-Jrxnt14: fix the shaking though and nobody will notice07:34
xnt14Luke-Jr, yeah, I need to fix that :P07:35
xnt14hey, I *just* finished it :P07:35
Luke-Jrif it needs fixing, it isn't finished07:35
xnt14its not polished yet07:35
xnt14what shaking?07:35
xnt14oh right, you hate firefox....xD07:36
* xnt14 opens up konquerer07:36
MacerLuke-Jr: ordered an n81007:36
Luke-JrMacer: FAIL07:36
Macerneeded it for carman ;)07:36
xnt14chrome: check.....07:36
Macernot bad considering they startted at 400+07:36
Luke-JrMacer: bad, considering I got mine for $200 a few monthss ago07:37
Luke-Jrxnt14: fail07:37
Luke-Jrxnt14: click the tabs, the whole thing moves right then left07:37
xnt14what browser? give me the ua07:37
MacerLuke-Jr: brand new?07:37
Macernot bad07:38
Luke-Jrxnt14: Konqueror 4.3 RC07:38
Maceryours had to be new. you said it didn't come with a car mount07:38
Luke-Jrxnt14: also: the page doesn't resize properly07:38
Macerbut it does.. comes with a screw on base07:38
Luke-JrMacer: you screw that onto a real mount07:38
Luke-JrMacer: you asked about windsheld; it certainly doesn't come with that07:38
Luke-Jreven if you can hackily screw the half-mount to your dash07:38
Macerwell.. it comes with a base07:39
Macerthat you screw in07:39
Luke-JrMacer: like I said, it comes with a holder that you can attach to a mount07:39
Luke-JrMacer: it doesn't count as a mount unless it can be rotated on the drive/fly07:40
Luke-Jrxnt14: 1. Valid != Correct07:40
xnt14ok w/e07:40
Luke-Jrxnt14: 2. XHTML 1.0 is WAY obsolete07:40
xnt14im still installing konquror07:40
Luke-Jr(as opposed to XHTML 1.1 which is not compatible)07:40
Luke-Jrxnt14: 3. XHTML is obsolete (HTML 5 replaces both HTML 4 and XHTML)07:40
Macerit comes with that thing?07:41
Luke-Jrxnt14: 4. you're serving the XHTML page wrong07:41
Luke-JrMacer: yeah, that and some adapter for mounts07:41
xnt14Luke-Jr, I started this two weeks ago, I made the decision to use html5 in all my pages from now on a 1/2 a week ago07:41
Luke-Jrxnt14: (you're sending it as text/html, not text/xml+xhtml)07:41
Luke-Jrxnt14: still doesn't excuse the 1.0 vs 1.1 ;P07:42
Luke-Jrxnt14: that script is utter fail07:42
Luke-Jrit's just 'cp' with training wheels added07:43
Luke-Jrand it refers to a "custom site" which per definition isn't based on a template07:43
xnt14that v1.007:43
Luke-Jrif it's based on a template, it's a templated site, not a custom site07:43
Macerthat round thing underneath is a mount it hought07:43
Maceryou scrwe it into your dash07:44
Luke-JrMacer: wrong, it's an adapter for a real mount07:44
Luke-Jryou don't screw mounts into your dash :þ07:44
Macerwhy not ;)07:44
Luke-Jrdash's aren't made for being screwed to07:44
Luke-Jrnothing there allows free movement/rotation of the N81007:45
Maceri see07:45
Maceri think nokia really had the intention of you screwing it into your dash with the kit07:46
Macerthat's ok though. i'll just order a suctioncup window mount07:46
Luke-JrI don't, seeing as they build mounts that interface with that adapter07:46
xnt14Luke-Jr, nothing wrong,
Luke-Jrxnt14: it's an animated thing07:47
xnt14its the new build of konqueror that screws up07:47
Luke-Jrit moves right then back to original left07:47
xnt14all I see is a bit of jittering of the images07:47
Luke-Jrxnt14: also, like I said, it doesn't resize properlyy07:47
Luke-Jrif I resize my window to 1000 px wide, the page should fill it07:48
MacerPlease don't screw it to your dash unless you drive an '83 K-car or Pinto - that's what mounts are for.07:48
xnt14it works fine on webkit nightly on my xps, it works fine on my uncles mac in safari, it works on my ipod, it works on my nit, and it works on firefox07:48
Macerwell... let me find a suction mount07:48
xnt14Luke-Jr, the window in the center is designed to be a fixed width :P07:49
Luke-Jrxnt14: you clearly have no concept of theory ☺07:49
Luke-Jrxnt14: that is a bug07:49
Luke-Jr"fixed width" is always a bug07:49
Luke-Jrin your case, it's a double bug07:50
Luke-Jrbecause you specified it in pixels07:50
xnt14".container {width: 500px; margin: 10px auto;}" ~ b-man-site v2 code   |     px is fixed, em is fluid07:51
Luke-Jrxnt14: using pixels is always a bug07:53
xnt14holy. crap. wtf, that is so screwed up....07:53
Luke-Jrxnt14: it is 100% valid rendering of your broken page07:54
Macerthat's what you're supposed to get07:54
Luke-Jrxnt14: about 200 DPI07:54
Macerthat's the nokia solution to their included car mount07:54
Macerwhat a bunch of crap07:54
Macerwhy include a halfmount ? :)07:55
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xnt14im not sure if konqueror supports this, but can you give me a dump of your DOM?07:55
Luke-Jrxnt14: in theory, a 500+ DPI display would show your "sub-window" about 1 inch wide, with 2 or 3 letters fitting in it07:56
Luke-Jrfix your broken code07:56
Luke-JrI already told you the reason for the 2 biggest bugs07:56
Luke-Jr1. Use real sizes, like inches or (even better) em07:57
Luke-Jr2. Don't force a fixed width07:57
Luke-Jr#1 fixes the DPI problem07:57
Luke-Jr#2 fixes the display size problem07:58
xnt14what do you think im doing right now07:58
Luke-Jrxnt14: if someone wants to show your webpage on a 100-monitor-wide display, do you really want to only use the middle two?07:58
Luke-Jryou're obviously using a pixel fixed-width07:58
Luke-Jrxnt14: or how about a 25x25 monitor matrix, viewed by people standing a mile away?07:59
xnt14ok. I get it ok?07:59
Luke-Jrfinally :þ07:59
Luke-Jrhmm, I should mention the blind guys next07:59
xnt14ok try it again ;)07:59
Luke-JrI wonder how a synthesizer would read that page07:59
Luke-Jrxnt14: the menu height needs to be fixed still08:00
xnt14alright hold on a sec.... ;)08:00
Luke-Jrxnt14: try 2em08:01
Luke-Jrand make the margins 0.5em08:01
Luke-Jrlooks like there's a "top" on the main content that needs adjusting08:02
xnt14ok try it now08:02
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xnt14luke-jr, try again08:10
Luke-Jrxnt14: the menu overlaps the content a bit, but maybe that's intentional08:15
Luke-Jrno u -.-08:15
xnt14its not supposed to overlap08:16
xnt14fine then, install a vnc server on your machine and give me the password so I can take a screenshot myself08:16
Luke-Jrover my dead baby08:17
xnt14thanks ;)08:17
Luke-Jr <-- example on a phone display08:17
Luke-Jrand wtf is with the "b-man site" at the top that is only visible when you mouseover it?08:18
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Luke-Jrmeh, bed time08:18
xnt14its opacity: 0.508:18
xnt14me too08:18
xnt14is works fine here08:18
Luke-Jrxnt14: opacity doesn't care about mouseover08:18
xnt14it must be your monitor08:19
Luke-Jrxnt14: if it "works fine" in a phone, that's a bug in the phone trying to make your webpage's bug happy08:19
Luke-Jrxnt14: no, it's called proper testing08:19
xnt14ok what ever, ill fix it in the morning, its 1:19 here08:19
Luke-Jrxnt14: set font size to 3x what you're used to, and browser to 640x48008:20
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tomdavidsonhello, anyone have experiance with load-applet?
tomdavidsonim trying to have a gui applet to control swap ...09:51
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t_s_ocontrol swap in what way? one can turn swap on and of in control panel, and home tools can list the exact amount of swap and ram free10:25
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JaffaMorning, all11:53
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Stskeepsmorning jaffa12:04
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: maemopackages-20080716 actually says 33% OSS, -- in terms of packages17:51
Stskeepserr, i mean, 33% closed source17:51
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GAN800Stskeeps, still not most. ;)18:24
GAN800Did I mention how tired I am of all the idiots on Talk? :P18:27
qwerty12_N810But, but, but, you get a second helping here!18:27
qwerty12_N810Er, dose18:27
qwerty12_N810Now do I qualify as an idiot?18:28
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GAN800qwerty12_N810, only in your choices in music. ;)18:29
VDVsxqwerty12_N810, do you like britney spears music ? :P18:35
qwerty12_N810VDVsx: eurgh, hell no :P18:35
VDVsxso, what kind you music do you like that can be that bad, lolol18:36
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qwerty12_N810<whisper> rap, hip-hop, and grime </whisper>18:37
VDVsxqwerty12_N810, not my taste of music, but is acceptable ;)18:38
Jaffaqwerty12_N810: You're young. Your taste in music will get better as you get older ;-)18:39
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VDVsxJaffa, true :)18:41
qwerty12_N810Everyone I meet on the internet has different tastes to me >.<. Ah well, at least I don't go around adding retarded comments to YouTube...18:41
* Jaffa admits that he prefers sublow, rather than grime in general18:42
JaffaNo, I'm not just using wikipedia to sound like I'm down wid da kidz18:42
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Stskeepsqwerty12_N810: did bundyo put out webkit sources yet?19:31
qwerty12_N810No, he usually does it on request as it's a pain in the ass doing the diff19:32
qwerty12_N810(my version of the words he used)19:33
Stskeepsit's not in a svn i presume19:35
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Stskeepsi'd be happy without a diff personally, just tar.gz :P19:36
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xnt14Luke-Jr, I removed the opacity hover from b-man's site, and I added some icons on the bottom right ;P
xnt14I need to get my server running again ;)19:56
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* xnt14 looks at the top of his desk, which is a mess of a bunch of keyboards, 3 monitors, and a x52 joystick xD19:58
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RST38henjoy the madness20:21
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Luke-Jrwhat exactly does Carman tell you besides what is already on your dashboard?20:38
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xnt14hahaha xD21:25
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GeneralAntillesBleh, I hate not having the hardware you need when you need it.21:29
lardmann900 by any chance? :)21:29
GeneralAntillesNo, a working ethernet switch and a cat5 cable.21:29
lardmanoh, slightly less exciting :D21:29
lardmananyway, are you planning on coming to the summit?21:30
GeneralAntillesPlanning on it.21:30
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lardmancool :)21:30
GeneralAntillesThough all of my enthusiasm for this platform and community is slowly being drained away.21:30
lardmanwell steer clear of Talk for a while, will do wonders I imagine :)21:31
* GeneralAntilles prods at Wine.21:31
lardmanI could do with some "new hardware" excitement to get me coding again21:31
lardmantranslating C to Python is taking its toll on me21:32
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RST38hSo, gentlemen, anything new?21:53
RST38hlardman: What brought you to this sorry task?21:53
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MacerRST38h: touch book says they're goin gto ship now21:58
Maceror that they are already21:58
RST38hyea, just saw this in the rss feed =)22:01
lardmanRST38h: though maemo-barcode would be more accessible in Python22:03
lardmanplus the barcode GSoC project is in python, so may as well be in the same lang22:03
RST38hlardman: bad idea IMHO22:04
lardmanI hate C GTK+ stuff22:04
lardmanespecially listboxes22:04
RST38hlardman: making it a command line utility that prints the barrcode or a dbus service with the same function will do better22:04
lardmanpython is much more succinct22:04
lardmanwell that exists, not my doing - see zbar22:05
RST38hlardman: ah cool =)22:05
lardmanI'm just writing some gui + db functionality, and will borrow the webscraping from the GSoC project22:05
RST38hI mean, abstracting the UI in python is probably ok, but the core functionality better be plain C22:05
Luke-Jr>>> Emerging (2 of 22) kde-base/kdelibs-4.3.0 from kde22:05
derfYes, "a proper library for the actual decoding" was a big improvement.22:05
lardmanyeah the hard stuff, the barcode decoding is done in C. zbar has python bindings though22:05
derfFortunately, zbar did everything we wnted except QR codes, and it was pretty easy to get my code for that integrated in.22:06
lardmanindeed, good work there :)22:06
derfYes. I asked the author if he thought it was possible and he handed me an existence proof.22:06
lardmananyway my C code doens't work very well (bloody listboxes and GStreamer) so i thought I'd have a crack at it in Python22:06
derfEasiest integration I've ever done :).22:07
RST38hGStreamer is pure horror, indeed22:07
RST38hAnd no way to do stuff I need to do, too =)22:07
derfRST38h: I know a number of gstreamer developers if you've got specific suggestions.22:08
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lardmanI'm still stunned at how many fewer lines of Python are required to do things like sqlite db work22:08
RST38hderf: I already found a successful way to ignore gstreamer22:08
lardmangreat, and I can dev on the device then too, or on my Windows PC if I have some down time at work, ideal22:08
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RST38hderf: Basically, I just need to play an array of audio samples, in a loop, without hiccups :)22:08
lardmantv beckons, bbl22:09
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RST38hderf:; Diablo lets me do it through ESD (an undocumented pile of feces on its own, but much less complicated then GStreamer)22:09
RST38hI guess for Fremantle I will have to switch to ALSA22:09
derfRST38h: That does really seem like something one ought to be able to do.22:10
MacerRST38h:  saw this in rss feeds?22:10
Macerabout the touch book?22:11
Maceri'll believe it when people say they actually received one ;)22:11
RST38hderf: Alas, Gstreamer does not appear to make it easy :)22:11
RST38hMacer: Yea, even saw a generic slick netbook picture =022:11
RST38hderf: Apparently written by people who needed to connect MP3 decoders to filters, special effects, etc. Not suitable for general audio work.22:12
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derfRST38h: It's a multimedia framework. It's much more worried about getting the hard stuff (synchronizing multiple streams, especially given variable and poor-quality audio clocks) right, than whether or not the easy stuff is easy.22:20
MacerRST38h: which rss feed ?22:21
Macerdoes always innovating have an rss feed? :)22:21
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lcuk(well, the lake district, but whats a few thousand miles..)22:49
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