IRC log of #maemo for Friday, 2009-07-17

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rm_you_lcuk RST38h: one of my friends just put up an away message with a link to one of your quotes :P01:05
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rm_youI lol'ed01:05
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jhfordi am trying to create a standardized testing image for automation and I was wondering if there was a way to unpack the .bin firmware images01:18
wazdrm_you: oh?)01:19
johnsqjhford: flasher can it (iirc901:20
wazdoh, found it :D01:20
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jhfordjohnsq: oh?  i tried flasher-3.0 -u image.bin and it didn't do anything that i cuold see01:20
qwerty12_N810Give it the "-F" param too01:21
jhfordthanks :)01:21
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wazd <- quick work on OSM2Go icons01:22
jhfordqwerty12_N810: thanks!01:22
lcukrm_you, which01:23
jhfordif i modify the rootfs, do i need to recreate a fiasco image?01:23
wazdlcuk: it's still in the latest01:23
lcuk#hi btw01:23
lcukwhat is?01:23
qwerty12_N810jhford: No, flasher has an option to flash a jffs2 file directly01:23
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jhfordqwerty12_N810: again, thanks :D01:24
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lcukwazd, i found it ta :D01:25
lcukrm_you, 2009-03-1501:25
lcuka long time ago01:25
* lcuk prefered this one01:25
lcuklcuki thought you could get giffs from your local bbs22:1201:25
lcuklcukREDHOT~1.GIF ;)22:1301:25
lcuklcukand after downloading you discover its a scan of someones fireplace01:25
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wazdqwerty12_N810: lcuk: <- what do you think?01:26
lcukwaswas, could you please change your nick, i keep trying to message wazd and you get in the way.  tyvm hope you understand lol01:27
lcuki just looked wazd and i was trying to msg you back01:27
wazdlcuk: :D01:27
lcukthose look cool01:27
qwerty12_N810wazd: I like it :)01:28
jhfordlast question for today: how do i mount a jffs2 image or manipulate it01:29
lcukwazd, your balls look shiney and nice, where do you get stock from, are they in psp or whatever?01:29
lcukor hand rendered with 3d prog?01:29
qwerty12_N810Now, that's a quote :P01:29
lcukqwerty12_N810, shush, im admiring his balls01:29
wazdlcuk has just hacked my home porno archive I guess :D01:30
jhfordqwerty12_N810: that works :)01:30
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lcukwazd, if you have balls in your home porno collection you are doing it wrong!01:30
wazdlcuk: mine only :D01:30
wazdlcuk: I draw them in PS btw, it's easy :)01:31
lcukahhh so its just a ball generation tool01:31
wazdlcuk: use of 3d rendering for them is a bit overkill :)01:31
wazdlcuk: no, it's just shapes in right place :)01:31
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wazdlcuk: no automation :)01:32
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lcuki actually managed to do some transparancy stuff last night01:32
lcukmy rusty installation of psp7 barely manages to save pngs and restore them again01:33
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lcukholy crap!01:33
lcukim just scavenging around my desktop pc to find media to be imported into my database01:34
lcuktheres 24000 sketches01:34
lcukdupes of course01:34
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javispedrolet me guess: all of the same sketch: wazd's balls01:35
lcuknot on your nelly01:35
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lcukwazds balls are too shiny to be a sketch01:36
* javispedro grabs dictionary01:36
qwerty12_N810lcuk: isn't that why you've got 24,000 dupes? :?PJ01:36
javispedronelly "inferior or cheap wine"01:36
lcuki need to find everything and import them, it will handle dupe removal, but its from backup folders and stuff01:37
wazdPre UI is cool01:37
* javispedro throws dictionary 01:37
qwerty12_N810javispedro: don't worry: lcuk speaks the northern dialect of English...01:38
wazdAnd it's much easier to test than Fremantle ones :(01:38
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javispedrowazd: and I guess it may run on a x86 pc too, so it's just a few days until the chinese make a x86 pre ripoff01:39
lcukshould run in firefox shouldnt it lol01:39
wazdjavispedro: maybe :)01:39
javispedrolcuk: runs on chrome01:39
lcukno i dont01:39
wazdI'm really surprised that russian language works absolutely fine in it01:40
javispedro"A chromosexual is a person who rides a motorcycle and tries to put every piece of chrome available on their bike."01:40
lcukwhat res is it runnin at?01:40
javispedro- urban dictionary01:40
wazd320x480 I guess01:41
qwerty12_N810wazd: I thought Maemo had this feature too? :D01:41
wazdqwerty12_N810: yep, but Pre never meant to be released in here I think :)01:41
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amrreckon i can get 5 hours of wifi out of an n810?01:42
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amrim really not very consistent with using my tablet01:42
lcukeasily with power saving01:42
amroh good01:42
qwerty12_N810wazd: really? I thought Russian phone market wasn't as convoluted as US one...01:42
lcukif you use adhoc tho it will die in 4.2 hours exactly01:42
amrexactly? :P01:42
lcuknot a second more or less01:42
wazdqwerty12_N810: noone wants to work here :)01:42
wazdqwerty12_N810: greedy providers, no subsidizing allowed01:43
javispedro I get two full days with WLAN_INFRA as long as you use it as a paperweight01:43
wazdqwerty12_N810: absolutely no sense of marketing01:43
lcuki can now leave irc idling for days01:43
lcukthe screen does the damage01:43
qwerty12_N810wazd: Ah. I thought it was just Canada that had really bad mobile phone networks :)01:44
lcuki wonder when im gonna put the extra stuff into the .git01:44
jhfordqwerty12_N810: canada does indeed have god-awful cell phone systems01:44
wazdI've fount one issue, menu left/right scrolling is super lame01:45
wazdI just found out that it works :) Only by chance01:45
* lcuk hates side to side panning for some things01:46
wazdand icons are pretty inconsistent01:46
qwerty12_N810jhford: heh, I hear prices are extremely exorbitant...01:46
jhfordi have a 250min/month package with basic data for $65/month01:47
jhfordthe data is on a phone so bad that it is useless01:47
* lcuk has exactly 2 icons in system01:47
lcukooh 301:47
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amrlcuk, liqbase-playground is lovely02:06
amrit's so smooth and quick02:06
lcukyeah :)02:06
* lcuk is busy actually making use of everything now02:07
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amri hope many people use your lib and make software that doesn't suck02:08
amralso, is minigpsd worth installing?02:09
lcuki dunno02:09
amrwhen i have a-gps on the gps usually connects pretty quick so i'm not too fussed about the speed boost02:09
lcukabout other people using it, it doesnt bother me, i just wanted something to code in that didnt feel like it was underpowered02:10
lcukive never installed agps02:10
amryeah i watched your presentation at maemo summit02:10
lcukwe dont have a problem gettin a lock in the car02:10
amryou're right, devices aren't cheap02:10
amrand the vast majority of software out there doesn't show the tablet in a good light :/02:11
lcukgetting better tho02:11
amri forget what its called..02:11
lcukpeople are grasping that minimalistic approach works best02:11
amryeah exactly02:11
amrthe python program that connects to wordpress and such02:11
amrmight just my wordpy or something like that02:11
* lcuk sees too many big fat complex desktop apps02:11
amri was watching the screencast for that app in maemo5 (i think thats what its called...)02:12
lcukyeah, tis lookin good02:12
amrand it was just designed so badly02:12
amryou liked it? :<02:12
lcuki like it as an overview of whats possible yeah02:12
lcukspecific design doesnt bother me02:13
amri didn't like that when loading a view to display comments, you had to press 'get'02:13
lcukits people having the tools to be able to work it thats important02:13
amrsurely thats silly, you want it to auto get02:13
lcukthats design for ya - hackers arent designers, and designers arent hackers02:14
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amros software has loads of good programmers02:14
amrbut not so many of the good designers :<02:14
amror at least from what i've seen02:14
lcuk:) i am trying to show as much user content as possible02:14
lcukit should be the users' stuff that fills the screen and things that relate to them ;)02:15
lcuki can almost skimp on design :D02:15
amryeah i'm all for that02:15
lcukgraffiti wall in playground now looks like it used to :) with proper datebars and im just sorting out multiselect02:16
amri dont have a graffiti wall02:16
amri dont think02:16
amri installed from extras-devel02:16
lcukyou do - its just a list of sketches in yours02:16
lcuktechnically, you have a LOT of things in there02:16
amrhms, i dont see any sketches02:16
lcukhave you drawn any..02:17
amrtop left i have a calendar, top right tags, below that photos, middle is a clock?02:17
amroh duh02:17
amrim a moron.02:17
lcukdid you say you are moving from leeds soon02:18
amrwell i'm at uni @ durham during term times02:18
amrrest of the time here02:18
amrand then leaving as soon as i graduate :p02:18
lcukmy mate went to leeds uni02:18
amri quite like the uni here02:19
amrbut im glad i moved away02:19
amroh damn, the graffiti wall is pretty swish02:20
lcukheh, thats bare bones version02:20
amrif you need any testers ;)02:20
lcukno grouping, i cant wait to put the final bit in it02:20
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lcukamr, its constantly being built back up02:21
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lcukthe .git is public02:21
amroh noice02:21
lcukand i do all building on the device itself :)02:21
lcukim just not releasing many packages, im loathed to need that one there tbh02:21
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lcukproper release will be out soon :)02:22
lcuk#liqbase is where i mostly waffle and release stuff, and probably where the first user accounts will be given to02:23
lcuk( )02:23
amroh helo :o02:24
Luke-Jro hai thar amr02:25
amrhello der02:25
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wazdtoo bad that designers aren't hackers :(02:30
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javispedrodpkg - warning: ignoring request to remove --force-all which isn't installed.02:38
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sarowerhello all, Good morning!06:56
saroweri am using this function to change the window. it can enlarge the window but can not make it smaller.06:58
sarowergtk_widget_set_size_request( (GtkWidget*) pluginWindow, width, height );06:58
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sarowerOk gys....I have solved it by using, gtk_window_resize( GTK_WINDOW(pluginWindow), width, height);08:24
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RST38h"A man found naked wandering along the Nevada border has been tased and arrested despite his claiming to be a Terminator sent from the future."08:50
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sarowersalara sob morche....09:41
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StskeepsRST38h: hah09:53
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chxhi. I am in grief, my Nokia N810 (almost brand new) it seems not to made it home with me. Anyone has one for sale?10:02
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Stskeepscheck's buy/sell forum10:05
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chxon another note how far is the N90010:19
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Stskeepsno clue10:20
Stskeepsfremantle beta2 is out10:20
Stskeepsqwerty12_N810: i fixed my charger plug! :)10:20
Stskeepschx: means we're getting a hell lot closer :P10:21
chxqwerty12_N810: what irc client you have on 810?10:21
Stskeepsmy bet is september10:21
Stskeepsat nokia world10:21
chxStskeeps: you mean, when fremantle gets released, then the N900 gets too?10:21
chxcan i live two months w/o a tablet/10:21
chxbig question10:21
Stskeepsi lived three days without it and i hated it10:22
Stskeepsboring commute in the morning10:22
chx the end of this list is where it gets interesting and the only devices there with a more-than-3 inch screen are the Pandora and the Nokia tablets.10:24
chxoh and the Fujitsu Lifebook U820 but i bet you need to sell a kidney to afford that10:25
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Stskeepshm, smartq isn't on there10:25
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chxwhat's that?10:25
Stskeepsnot as hard quality as a n810 or n800 obviously, but 800x480 and same screensize10:26
Stskeepsvery hackable - we run Mer, and Ubuntu on it10:27
chxno keyboard?10:27
Stskeepsno keyboard, but it has a lot of juice in otg10:27
chxfor me, a keyboard is an absolute must10:27
chxthe primary usage, i must say, is IM and SSH.10:27
Stskeepsi'd wait for n900 then :P10:27
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Maceri am honestly still at a loss on how opensourced products help companies10:38
Macerlike sun for example10:38
Maceropen office.. opensolaris..10:38
Macerwhere are they expecting ot make their profits?10:38
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RST38hSun? They do not.10:40
RST38hThey are part of Oracle now10:40
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RST38hOpenSolaris is a last ditch effort to prevail over Linux, an unsuccessful effort for that10:41
Stskeepsopensolaris isn't half bad really10:41
RST38hSts: Won't change anything, even if it were given directly by Jesus10:42
chxMacer: this is easy10:42
chxMacer: open source (if done right) means a lot of people contribute and make that product better10:42
chxMacer: if you are a solution provider then you have a lot more to sell (services!) than a software.10:43
RST38hchx: So, how many people contribute to OpenOffice or OpenSolaris?10:43
chxI do not know but I know ppl translating OpenOffice10:43
RST38hchx: Exactly :)10:45
JaffaMorning, all10:46
JaffaMacer: IBM make a *lot* of money off their investments in Linux, Java, OpenOffice, ...10:46
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chxyeah there is that10:51
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chxOTHER solution providers might contribute to your product :p10:51
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MacerStskeeps: opensolaris is great10:52
Macerjaffhow? :)10:53
Maceri'm just curious10:53
MacerJaffa i meant10:53
Maceri don't understand how ibm makes money off openoffice10:53
StskeepsMacer: i have osol inside my media center now, heh - it takes care of my 3x300 raidz, and then i run ubuntu with boxee around it :P10:53
MacerStskeeps: lol.. i have opensolaris on my fileserver 8x1TB with areca hw raid ;)10:54
Macerit runs like an absolute dream10:54
JaffaMacer: they invest in an open source product (OpenOffice), then add proprietary layers on top and sell it; with support contracts to their clients.10:54
Macerfaster and better than anythi8gn i have put on it.. plus zfs ftw on large volumes10:54
qwerty12_N810Stskeeps: awesome! :)10:54
qwerty12_N810chx: /ctcp qwerty12_N810 VERSION10:54
MacerJaffa: ok. now that was the answer i was looking for ;)10:54
Macerthank you because i honestly did not understand the concept10:55
Stskeepsqwerty12_N810: if you ever mess up your plug, get a torx t4 and it's trivial10:55
Macerit just doesn't seem like that type of business model could sustain such a large company10:55
JaffaMacer: Other stuff, like Java & Linux, save costs and increase homogeneous enterprise environments of their customers, so they can sell more hardware; consultancy etc.10:55
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infobotJaffa meant: Macer: Other stuff, like Java & Linux, save costs and increase homogeneous enterprise environments of their customers, so IBM can sell more hardware; consultancy etc.10:55
MacerJaffa: ok. i see :) thank you because i honestly did not see how opensource software was truly profitable10:56
Maceri mean especially when you havfe to sustain a large company. i don't know what exactly keeps sun in business10:56
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Macerer.. or oracle now i suppose10:56
JaffaMacer: ...with lower costs as they don't need as many developers, consultants and support staff who know x86, PPC, ARM, z/Series, ... assembler or system specifics. More generalists on Java & Linux (even on the mainframes like z/Series) mean that IBM's costs are lower too10:56
StskeepsMacer: it's powered by fusion power processes10:57
chxqwerty12_N810: hm, xchat, interesting10:57
JaffaMacer: Oracle are very similar. By supporting and contributing to Linux, they increase the adoption of a single OS they can deploy their enterprise software to. By supporting Java (the biggest commercial reason for the Sun acquisition), they - like IBM - can save money *and* support more enterprise platforms: thus increasing sales.10:57
Macerso... they make a *lot* of money by cutting costs? :)10:57
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Maceroracle seems to want to contribute to opensolaris don't they ? considering they now own sun?10:58
JaffaThe other big reason for Oracle buying Sun is the age old hate that Larry Ellison has of Microsoft. So, at first glance you'd expect Oracle (a middleware company) to dump OOo; however he's going to invest in it as a repeat of his mid-90s dreams of a low-cost, network-based competitor to Wintel (a la the NC)10:58
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JaffaMacer:  IBM's evenue take iwas around $90bn a year whilst I was there. Saving a few costs can increase profits quite a lot with those kind of figures ;-)10:59
Macerhe might want to turn his eyes towards googleOS then10:59
StskeepsMacer: it's going to suffer from the usual problem: perpherials10:59
MacerJaffa: i i suppose you are right 100% ;)10:59
MacerStskeeps: doubtful10:59
Macerisn't it just going to be a google browser based wm with a linux kernel?11:00
JaffaAlthough as I said, most of the "new" money comes from people being interested in big, old mainframes again because they run standard Java & Linux, rather than proprietary old hardware. They can sell more of their services; and they can sell support contracts.11:00
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JaffaMacer: That's what it's said to be so far.11:00
Maceri don't see why adding hardware would be a problem11:00
Macerlinux for the most part has plenty of hardware support11:00
Macerand i'm sure anything that comes with the os will be supported11:00
Maceri think google is the only realistic competitor to ms' windows market11:01
Macerthey have the name ;)11:01
Macerapple didn't have the same kind of name or style of reputation that google has11:01
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Macerwhich is why i think apple still has such a "small" share of the mainstream [PC] business11:01
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StskeepsMacer: yeah, but hardware access for web applications is a nightmare11:02
MacerStskeeps: depending on the type of access that will be used ;)11:02
Maceri think everybody is over-reading into the "web based application OS"11:02
Macerand it will be more a local run than everybody thinks11:02
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Macerthey act like the os will literally run off the web.. when i am pretty sure that can not be t case. heh. not everybody has that fast of an internet connection... so they would alienate easter eu lol11:03
* RST38h finds it amusing that people now associate Internet with the Web11:04
RST38hLike http protocol is the only thing in existence11:04
RST38hAnd they are actually trying to run EVERYTHING via http11:04
Macerwell.. i don't think taht is really going to be th case with google OS11:05
Macerif they can throw some 3D compositing and their logo around all over the place it might do very well11:05
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Macerit might do for arm based products what it did for htc with android11:05
RST38hMacer: Google OS is a Chrome browser running in a framebuffer on a vanilla Linux system11:05
MacerRST38h: so says you :) haha11:06
RST38hMacer: It will not be anything more than that11:06
Macerit's a year off and just an idea11:06
RST38hMacer: So say my crystal balls11:06
Macerit might not even be like that :)11:06
RST38hWe have seen screenshots of the idea though11:06
RST38hAnd so far it is completely in line with what my crystal balls say11:06
Macerwhere are the screen shots?11:07
Maceri'd love to see them :)11:07
RST38ha moment11:07
JaffaMacer: If you want to play with what a lightweight OS that runs lots of web apps feels like, see Jolicloud OS. Lots of Prism-based containers for popular websites. Not much in the way of local code.11:07
JaffaGoogle Mail, with Gears for offlineyness, is a far better mail client than Modest.11:07
MacerJaffa: maybe i will try it if i ever get my touch book that i pre-ordered ;)11:07
MacerJaffa: i am sure there are quite a few web apps that work better than local ones11:08
Maceri sure in hell use gmail a lot more than i'd ever use outlook ;)11:08
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Maceror the macmail crap.. or (God help me) thunderbird11:08
Maceralthough i run my own zimbra server also and think that half of anything i'd use was replaced by zimbra. the real challenge will be a good game market and the local graphics to apppeal to users11:09
Macereye candy sells :) if it is fast and smooth and uses the hardware well it can easily challenge ms11:09
RST38hMacer: these have not yet been marked as fakes:
RST38hJaffa: Not difficult to be better than Modest.11:10
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RST38hJaffa: But apparently Tear has offline storage stuff enabled, so someone can theoretically start writing apps for it11:10
JaffaRST38h: Those are very very old, and probably bear no relationship to this new ChromeOS.11:10
Macersure wish i could read the site :)11:11
Macerwhat language is this?11:11
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MacerRST38h: honestly11:11
Maceri like the way it looks11:12
Macerit would go nice on the touch book :)11:12
Macerif those are real pics11:12
Macerok.. have to do stuff .. bbl11:12
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Macereven if it was a web based compositing fb os with some sort of local storage runnign most things off the app or using gears..11:12
Macerit has the potential to be good11:12
Macerand i really think11:14
Macercan give the failing ms a run for its money11:14
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RST38hMacer: But will you agree to surrender your ability to tinker with the system?11:15
RST38hBecause this thing is apparently going to be just the browser running on top of the thin OS layer11:16
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wazdheya maemo11:37
woglindehi wazd+11:37
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Stskeeps'lo jrocha, - good job on the HIG :)11:59
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RST38hheya wazd12:01
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wazdRST38h: heya12:15
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wazdI just finished reading HIG btw12:16
wazdMobile applications must be able to adapt to all these displays.  <- Fail, Clutter doesn't have tools to provide scalability (at least that's what Vlad says)12:17
wazdIt uses absolute coordinates only12:17
Stskeepsblog piece? :P either way they're getting rid of clutter12:17
wazdStskeeps: Oh that make sense :D12:18
wazdStskeeps: looks like maemo team are real fans of additional useless work :)12:18
Jaffawazd: And the requirement just means that Clutter-based apps have to do their own co-ord scaling based on viewport width/height12:18
Stskeepswazd: nah, i think it's about the bloody best idea they've had for a while to go for Qt :P12:18
wazdJaffa: Vlad told me that you can't adjust item size or coordinate in % in Clutter12:20
wazdJaffa: GTK widgets only12:20
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Jaffawazd: Yes, you pass absolute co-ords to Clutter, but you work out what your absolute co-ords are as a %ge of the width/height12:22
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lbtI missed the clutter chat URL if it was posted...12:25
wazd <- on Pre :)12:26
qwerty12_N810My eyes!12:27
wazdqwerty12_N810: well, it zooms quite nice :)12:28
Stskeepswazd: that's tiny..12:28
qwerty12_N810I was referring to being on a Palm device, but now that you come to mention it... :P12:28
Stskeepsa Mer proof of concept on a Pre would be funny though :P12:29
wazdI like how browser address bar works12:30
wazdit shows you the title when not active, and when you click it - it shows url12:30
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RST38hwazd: looks tiny12:33
RST38hAlso, why waste perfectly good screen corners? :)12:33
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wazdRST38h: well, all ui is rounded so it looks nice :)12:36
wazdlooks like I'm unable to save jpg from the webpage12:37
qwerty12_N810Yay, I has drag lock setting that saves in hildon-desktop12:37
qwerty12_N810*gets saved12:37
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Stskeepsandre__: i think it's sometimes hard for people to realize maemo software doesn't follow maemo hardware always.. as in, Maemo has a bug fixed, because it's fixed in 5.0, - doesn't mean your device you found it on will get that fix12:57
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andre__yeah. i'm wondering whether to change my stock answer to make that more clear...12:59
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Jaffaandre__: As Mer approaches 1.0, it might be worth also saying "this is a WONTFIX for Diablo, but the Fremantle fix may be picked up by Mer" (not relevant for apps' bugs tho)13:22
lcuk"Fixed in frem^W Mer|Harmattan"13:23
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Stskeepsandre__: in the future it might be "fixed in package X, version Y"13:24
lcukjaffa, i noticed the scaling thing with clutter myself over xmas13:24
Stskeepshow the heck the person gets that would be community SSU, Mer, Fremantle, or whatever :P13:24
Stskeeps(for open source packages)13:25
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Stskeepsandre__: if there was more community involvement in harmattan, what are the 3 things you'd like to see changed in development method of Harmattan regarding your work as bugmaster?13:27
Stskeepsregarding = with your work as bugmaster as background :P13:27
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lcukStskeeps, im betting, internet controlled lasers at each workstation to uphold and enforce the criteria for good bug reports13:29
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andre__Stskeeps, earlier publishing of API specs and willingness to discuss them; better documentation; more devs in maemo bugzilla commenting and reviewing patches? :-)13:32
andre__but lcuk's proposals sound also nice13:32
Stskeepsandre__: ta - i'm collecting some stuff for my summit talk so :P13:33
* Meizirkki sent email to Michael Fray asking if he has time to document his method if compiling android against Ubuntu's libc..13:33
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StskeepsMeizirkki: good call13:34
Meizirkkihis email was easy to find, 3rd result in google search for "Michael Fray canonical"13:35
Meizirkkii wonder if Canonical is planning to integrate parts of android in ubuntu somehow..13:35
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Stskeepsi still think maemo's power is that it's toolkit agnostic13:37
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Stskeepsif i wanted to run an android framework app, i could potentially13:38
lbtHmm, should andre_ add something along the lines that Mer would be in a better position to fix these bugs if more people contributed to getting Mer going?13:38
andre__well, i want to keep it short. people can still click the link.13:38
javispedro"You are free to fix this bug by yourself" as a stock response should be fine too ;)13:38
andre__the longer the text the less it is read13:39
Stskeeps"This is open source, you are free to fix this bug by yourself or employ others to do so"13:39
lbtjavispedro: yeah - that's probably how it'd come off - and not go down too well13:39
VDVsxjust tried palm sdk, definitely maemo has the worst dev tools between the other three unix based mobile OS's :P13:40
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StskeepsVDVsx: yeah, but not as bad as symbian? ;)13:40
javispedroVDVsx, pre, android, and ?13:40
VDVsxStskeeps, ouch, thanks god :P13:41
javispedrosorry, you said "unix" :D13:41
JaffaVDVsx: I don't want to try the Pre's one. Brief play with iPhone, and more in depth with Android just gets me angry and frustrated with Maemo13:41
javispedroso that'l make #3 the iphone ?13:41
VDVsxjavispedro, yes :)13:41
javispedroso what. which is the only one which allows you to recompile a debian package "as is" and at least see it work13:42
javispedropriceless :D13:43
VDVsxJaffa, android is the more friendly so far, IMO, didn't tried the eclipse integration on the pre yet13:43
Stskeepsjavispedro: Mer? :P13:43
javispedrothis remembers me, Stskeeps, did Mer decide to follow Maemo and switch to Qt?13:44
lbtthey followed us13:44
VDVsxmer chroot is much better that the crappy SB :P13:44
lbtI just replied to developer list...13:45
Stskeepsjavispedro: i'm not a gtk fan, personally. we're toolkit agnostic so qt and gtk will co-exist. but we'll probably begin to move more stuff to qt.13:45
amrsurely the fact you can recompile  a debian package "as is" is moot13:46
amryou want apps developed specifically for this os13:46
lbtVDVsx: just apt-get install emacs and ran gud....13:46
amrit's a plus if you want to be a cool nerd, but the general user doesn't give a toss13:47
javispedroamr: partly true13:47
Stskeepsamr: do you want to spend ages fitting libwhatever to scratchbox compilation?, because your mobile application would benefit from it?13:47
VDVsxlbt, well, is also a option, the "emacs OS" is powerful :P13:47
lcukVDVsx, with the palm and iphone sdk can you recompile the kernel?13:47
javispedrothe general user gives a toss if he can't run e.g. "curse of monkey island" for that reason13:47
lcukor are they for fruity apps only?13:47
amrStskeeps, as i don't develop for maemo i don't care13:48
Stskeepsamr: i agree that we want to encourage mobile factor development, but we don't need to limit people too much :P13:48
VDVsxlcuk, iphone is closed source, for palm you can :)13:48
lcukwith the palm sdk?13:48
amri don't really see it as limiting13:48
VDVsxlcuk, off course no13:48
VDVsxlcuk, as a app developer you have intrested in compile a kernel ?13:48
Stskeepsamr: as in, it's much easier when we can just pick and choose what libraries we want to depend on, and then just spend time changing our View to mobile form factor, and add in concerns for mobile usage13:49
lcukwell thats what the sdk is for13:49
lcuki understand entirely tho13:49
lcukas a python dev yourself, why do you need an sdk?13:49
lcukcant you just use favorite text editor and run without any sdk13:49
amrStskeeps, i guess13:49
javispedroStskeeps, (in reply to Mer being toolkit agnostic) nice :)13:49
lcuksurely favorite editor + ssh == much better  than having to setup anything serious13:50
javispedroI think Qt is way easier to develop for; everytime I think Gtk I think boilerplate13:50
Stskeepsamr: and that's what we're attempting with mer. sure, we're based on ubuntu, and sure, it's cool to be able to install emacs, - but what's most cool for me is the ability to develop a mobile application just as easily as i develop a desktop app13:50
lcuka couple of script files to do the grunt work and you could have a really slick OS independent devkit13:50
javispedrobut there's still lots of apps, even lots of lightweight toolkits (think swt) which still target Gtk13:50
lcukjavispedro, qt is just as much boilerplate13:50
lcuktho you cant as easily see what the plating is because its abstracted down 17 levels ;)13:51
javispedrolcuk: but machine-generated boilerplate (which btw Vala was somewhat trying to fix)13:51
lcukno, vala was generating the boilerplate for you lol13:51
VDVsxlcuk, yes, I can, but I'm not only a python dev, and I also like a full integrated system, sorry but I'm not a emacs geek :P13:51
lcukthats not fixing it, thats just making it a bit easier to reproduce and work with13:51
lcukVDVsx, then a proper sdk should allow rebuilding the full OS13:52
lcukwhich of all the unix os's ONLY maemo can i think ;)13:52
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RST38hjavispedro: Any boilerplate is bad13:52
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lcuk*in what you said up there13:52
javispedroI don't think machine-generated boilerplate is bad (unless you mean this is a semantic contradiction)13:53
javispedrothink: compiler generators13:53
RST38hjavispedro: Machine generated ones are especially bad because once you change a few things there the machine can no longer regenerate them13:53
lcukRST38h, thats been the same since year .13:53
RST38hlcuk: Yes, unfortunately13:53
lcuknothing you can do13:54
RST38hActually, Microsoft solved it13:54
VDVsxlcuk, this isn't a argument for +90% of the app developers around, if you want more app in your system, you've to provide proper developing tools, this is one of the big problems in maemo, IMO13:54
JaffaIf it's boilerplate, it should be runtime only.13:54
RST38hSo, it is not like theres is nothing you can do13:54
RST38hJaffa <-- essentially correct13:54
JaffaIf it's machine generated source code as a lightweight, understandable starting point; that's fine.13:54
lcukMS havent solved boiler plate, they abstracted it and moved it into a different file13:54
lcukthe .not solution sucks balls13:54
javispedrolcuk: which I hate13:54
RST38hJaffa: usually never stays this way :)13:54
JaffaIf it's machine generated boilerplate source code to prevent the developer having to write it manually: very very bad.13:54
javispedrocause that means you no longer understand what your program is doing13:55
RST38hlcuk: They moved it to resource files which is a solution as far as I care13:55
RST38hlcuk: Of course, this does not mean I LIKE using Win3213:55
javispedrobut I like what qt's moc does13:55
javispedroit: allows you to forget about the whole meta object system if you like, but allows you to read about it if you want13:56
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lcukVDVsx, ok, so you want a lightweight IDE that can create funfilled desktop apps with lots of support13:56
* lcuk goes back to PYTHON and the fact you technically dont need any sdk cos its already there13:56
lcukif you want more - with maemo you can have it - but its more complex13:57
StskeepsJaffa: are there any good Vala IDE targetting Gtk, with a UI designer?13:57
VDVsxlcuk, I don't want I can deal with the current tools, but other can't :P13:57
VDVsxlcuk, give a try to the android sdk and you will see what I'm talking about13:58
Stskeepsqwerty12_N810: ++ on applets_locked13:59
lcukVDVsx, i have my own sdk that i create my own funky stuff in13:59
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VDVsxlcuk, I know :P13:59
JaffaStskeeps: No & Glade :-(13:59
qwerty12_N810Stskeeps: GConf rocks13:59
lcuki *KNOW* the problems with complex init, and its a major bugbear to me13:59
lcukjaffa, really theres no ide for vala yet?14:00
* Jaffa doesn't think Vala's the future for Maemo anymore (with the Qt change)14:00
lcukcant something like codeblocks contain language defs14:00
Jaffalcuk: There's Valable which I hack on (Eclipse plugin). Monodevelop. ValaIDE. None of them would count as "good" (but then I'm used to JDT in Eclipse)14:00
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lbtJaffa I'd love some help getting a Mer SDK with Qt and stuff working14:01
* lcuk longs for cygnuseditor for amiga14:01
lbtif you have seen the light dimming for vala14:01
lcukthe FASTEST amiga editor in the world (had super blitting that reminds me of liqbase ;))14:01
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woglindeqtcreator and designer rockz14:01
VDVsxlcuk, as a counter point, do you remember the issues that you had with autotools/deb stuff, a proper sdk will avoid that headache ;)14:02
lcukwoglinde, but what if you want QT stuff thats *NOT* cross platform14:02
Stskeepsqwerty12_N810: i assume you're on hiatus from mer and such to concentrate on college stuff, so i'll add a task for someone to add that patch to h-d git :) (probably me)14:02
lcuksupponsing i wanted to put liqbase into qt14:02
lcukbut design using the windows editor14:02
woglindelcuk haeh????14:02
woglindecross stuff works14:02
woglindehas nothing to do with designer14:03
woglindeonly some ifdefs for windows and macos14:03
lcukwoglinde, liqbase does not run in windows14:03
qwerty12_N810Stskeeps: I would have done it but then I heard "git" :)14:03
lcukso if (when?) i add a wrapper and extension  classes14:03
lcukit will blow chunks14:03
lcukVDVsx, you REALLY dont want to know my truthful solution to that problem14:04
Stskeepsqwerty12_N810: ah, it's fairly nice actually when you start using it a bit :)14:04
lcuki was about a gnats whisp away from using the webservice to allow updates and installs and stuff14:04
VDVsxlcuk, see, I have a point :P14:05
lcuki only had a problem with actually doing it the debian way which maemo on device tools cannot actually do14:05
qwerty12_N810Stskeeps: I must learn how to use it then :). Maybe I'll set up a local repo full of shit... :P14:05
lcukno VDVsx no point14:05
javispedromy maemo on-device tools ARE debian14:05
lcukif i i had used the sdk i wouldnt have batted an eyelid14:05
lcuki was doing it backwards14:05
lcukjavispedro, yes :)14:05
lcukmer is kicking ass with that14:05
VDVsx~chase lcuk14:06
* infobot chases lcuk14:06
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* javispedro is still using vainilla debian lenny14:06
* javispedro wants to try using mer chroot some day ;)14:06
woglindelcuk ah okay14:07
lcuk~sickballs VDVsx14:07
VDVsxlcuk, infobot is old and started to forget things :P14:08
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* javispedro javispedro believes maemo's sdk is best cause there isn't any, and you can build the perfect one yourself14:08
javispedro(which is btw what I believe lcuk's trying to tell us)14:09
javispedrolet it be dpkg-cross, scratchbox1, sb2, on-device, whatever14:09
javispedroor a combination of any of these14:10
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javispedroand then distribute it as vmware so that "the general user" can use it14:11
VDVsxlcuk, when you use your on-device environment, you don't have problems with the ssh connection ? mine is always going idle/dropped after a while without activity14:11
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amrsame with me, VDVsx14:14
lbtjavispedro: I use vanilla lenny14:14
lbtchroot in minutes...14:15
lbtthere's a cut'n'paste walkthrough here:
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Jaffalbt: I'll add it to my ever growing queue.14:16
javispedrodidn't like OBS so far14:16
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javispedrotries to do a lot of things. I won't say it does all of them badly, but just that I do not want it to do most of them14:17
javispedroalso, seems webby 2.014:17
* javispedro is a scratchbox1 lover14:18
lbtthat's a good idea... I suggest you unshift it14:18
lbtjavispedro: examples?14:19
sampppahow is it possible to change background colour of HildonPannableArea?14:19
javispedrolbt: considering I'm going to build a debian/rpm package for a start14:19
lbtwell.... you are.14:20
lbtOBS does nothing else. Just builds packages.  ?14:20
javispedrothen you're thinking of it as a autobuilder replacement14:20
javispedronot as a sb1 replacement14:20
lbtthe way it builds packages is to create a chroot in qemu14:21
lbtso I create a dummy package called SDK14:21
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lbtit has a build-depends of all kinds of crap14:22
lbtlike aptitude and sdk-config14:22
javispedroso, can you bootup the qemu chroot, the manually hack around include files to debug why your package is not building14:22
lbtwhich installs useful stuff into the chroot14:22
lbta 'normal' build has a 'pure' chroot14:22
lbtwhich is cool and elegant14:22
lbtand useless14:22
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lbtyou can hack in it14:22
lbtbut not much else14:23
lbtso I created a general purpose chroot14:23
lbtwhich, most critically, has a network14:23
lbt(build chroot doesn't)14:23
lbtthen you can install all kinds of things14:23
javispedroand then you'll get something similar to sb1 ;)14:24
lbtgosh, never thought about that ;)14:24
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javispedroI assume it'll be sb1 "done right" cause I don't consider sb2 being "sb1 done right"14:24
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lbtwe install modified 586 packages into the chroot14:25
lbtoffset into /lib-x8614:25
lbtthen symlink to /14:25
javispedro(for a start sb2 likes to rebuild some dont-know-whats-for package list which takes half an hour before EACH dpkg-buildpackage)14:25
lbtso  /bin/bash -> /lib-x86/bin/bash14:25
lbtdpkg-buildpackage -nc  ?14:26
lbtmore details here :
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lbtnb... I am writing this stuff as we speak14:26
lbtmodified glibc is compiling14:27
lbtI've written the cross-packager14:27
javispedrolbt, not the source package. I think it's related to some weird emulator configuration14:27
lbtand I have a cross-packaged bash14:27
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javispedronice job lbt14:27
lbtjavispedro: I confess to being so caught up in Mer that I don't have maemo sdk214:27
lbtdon't tell anyone at Nokia ;)14:27
lbtI'm running all the fremantle code in Mer14:28
lbtnow all I need is a cross-packaged set of i586 .so otherwise bash is u/s14:28
javispedroI just hope someday I can just say "sb3-conf switch_tool /usr/bin/java native" ;)14:28
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lcukVDVsx, winscp has a setting to ping after n seconds or something - keep alives, been in place for many systems (my ftp stuff uses em too)14:30
lcuktho actually looking mine arent configured and ive never needed em14:31
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VDVsxlcuk, humm, have to find a similar settting/tool for linux :)14:32
lcukwindscp also cures connection breaks, i can be transfering a file, reboot the tablet and continue transfering14:32
lcukonce back up14:32
lcukhey sampppa \o14:33
lcukwhat happens if you change the background color as you would on a panel14:33
lcukor is that a gtk styleism itself14:33
lcuk(i could never even change the button background colorin my remote control)14:34
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sampppalcuk: i dont know but it does not change, i use rc file14:37
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Macermade it 8 days so far without smoking14:42
lcuki can see 1 reference to setting the background14:46
lcuk(the others are scrollbars)14:46
lcukits only done in the realize handler/constructor?14:47
lcukperhaps if you force your code to do same, or mess with the style and refresh, it might work14:48
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lcukyerga, if you are around, do you have any idea how sampppa can set the background color?14:49
lcukMacer, congratulations14:50
* lcuk has a celebrationary cig for you!14:50
lcuksampppa, might be an idea to post some of this on ML (if yerga isnt awake lol)14:51
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lcukwhat other GTK states are there?14:51
lcukie this call:14:51
lcukgtk_style_set_background (widget->style, widget->window, GTK_STATE_NORMAL);14:51
lcukwhat happens if you set the state of the pannable to something else (disabled or somethiing)14:52
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lcukdoes the background change as expected with other widgets?14:52
lcukoooh sampppa theres someone else that might know14:52
* lcuk waves @ danielwilms and bets he craps himself and wonders what hes stumbled into ;)14:53
Jaffalo danielwilms14:53
qwerty12_N810Don't worry: he's dealt with sarower's shit...14:53
sampppafor example with this example: how to change bg to black etc ?14:53
lcukdare i ask who sarower is14:55
qwerty12_N810search the IRC logs, you'll realise who...14:56
lcuki cant search the logs im on vnc14:56
lcukdanielwilms, inside hildonpannable, it appears as though its not listening to sampppa's instructions about changing the background color and nothing he has tried works.  any ideas about how to solve his problem :D ?14:56
lcukhe tried asking it nicely,14:57
lcukthen raised his voice, and threatened it with dunking in a river14:57
lcukand he even told it he would build it in the bora sdk if it didnt behave14:57
lcukbut to no avail :(14:57
qwerty12_N810s/bora sdk/on device/14:58
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lcuknahhh liqbase does that quite well (as long as i dont want to move out)14:58
lcuklets get worse: on device in a win ce .net env ;)14:58
sampppalol :)14:59
sampppamaybe im doing something wrong here, i gotta eat somehting :)14:59
yergagenerally the widgets follow the theme colors15:00
yergathe only solution is using rc files15:00
yergaI think there are some applications using it15:01
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sampppayerga: on the example i linked, i can change the bg colour of hildonstackablewindow15:02
sampppabut when i add that hildonpannablea area it does not change, and if i set own style for hildonpannablearea it doesnt change either15:02
sampppawith rc file15:03
yergammm weird15:03
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yergaare you going to use buttons in the pannable?15:03
yergaor a treeview?15:03
sampppafor example buttons15:03
danielwilmslcuk believe it or not but I'm fighting right now with the same thing :D15:05
lcukteam maemo all stars - COMBINE YOUR FORCES!15:06
javispedroake off every 'ZIG'!! For great justice.15:06
lcukdanielwilms, are you comin to the summit?15:07
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danielwilmslcuk: I guess so...most likely I will15:07
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danielwilmslcuk what about you?!=15:11
lcuki hope to be there, i have submitted a bit of a proposal15:12
lcukafter my overview last year went down so well, it will be good to give a 1year later update15:12
lcukwith all the nice stuff ive got lined up :)15:12
* lcuk hopes it all works well together15:13
qwerty12_N810Planning to bring yer Apple keyboard?15:14
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lcuki have my laptop nowadays ;)15:14
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lcukqwerty12_N810, i will have to enable adhoc again tho to do it properly ;)15:15
qwerty12_N810Lies, just find a power socket15:16
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lcuko_O and plug in a router?15:16
lcukthats an idea15:16
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GeneralAntillesOr just use whatever network is there.15:26
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lcukGeneralAntilles its great assuming i can use whatever network is there, but if the network isnt stable15:44
lcuki oculd do with some kind of always on cellular data stream to let me be untethered :)15:45
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Meizirkkiqwerty12_N810, pookee15:48
qwerty12_N810Meizirkki: pong15:48
Meizirkkican you help me with powerlanch? i have made a simple script to start powerlaunch, but i fail to add it in powerlaunch sources15:49
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Meizirkkii mean, i have tried to put @cp -f <script> ${DESTDIR}/etc/start-hildon.d/ and such in Makefile15:50
Meizirkkibut it doesn't appear to be there.15:50
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Meizirkkiand if i add it to rules, it breaks at build15:50
qwerty12_N810Meizirkki: Where is your sources? TBH, I'd just do it from rules15:50
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Meizirkkiit fail to build
qwerty12_N810k, looking15:52
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Meizirkkii think i guess what's wrong there now..15:55
Meizirkkiqwerty12_N810, i'll try once more, if it still fails, i'll ask for help again :)15:56
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qwerty12_N810_Meizirkki: Hmm, you could just add "MER_STARTUP_ITEM /etc/start-hildon.d" to debian/install and remove that mkdir & cp combo in rules16:04
Meizirkkiokay thanks, is the mkdir needed btw?16:05
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qwerty12_N810_yes, cp won't copy to a non-existing dir16:06
Meizirkkiso i leave mkdir in rules?16:06
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qwerty12_N810_No, I said remove them16:06
Meizirkkiqwerty12_N810_, if i use the debian/install, is the mkdir still needed in rules?16:08
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Meizirkkithanks a lot qwerty12_N810_ :)16:14
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RST38h"In response to rumors circulating the internet on sites such as, and CNET News about a "flesh eating" robot project, Cyclone Power Technologies Inc. (Pink Sheets:CYPW) and Robotic Technology Inc. (RTI) would like to set the record straight: This robot is strictly vegetarian."16:18
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fiferboy_lbt: ping?16:33
fiferboy_Hi.  In finger scroll vel is the current velocity and vel1 is the previous, correct?16:34
lbtI think that was to work around a perceived bug16:36
lbtwhen I got multiple events with no delta16:36
lbtor something16:36
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fiferboy_I think the issue is when last_event_time is 0 (so vel and vel1 are 0) and another event doesn't come in.16:37
fiferboy_There is no velocity, so no kinetic scrolling, even though there was motion to set off a manual scroll16:38
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fiferboy_This only happens the first time, when last_event_time is still 0, which is why I thought it was a focus problem16:38
lbtIf there is a manual scroll then it sets vel16:38
lbtbut if there are only 2 events then vel1 = 016:39
lbtagain, IIRC16:39
fiferboy_So, if the first scroll is a really fast short one, vel is 016:39
fiferboy_If the first scroll is long enough, vel gets set fine and everything is good16:39
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lbtlet me kick glibc and then load the code16:40
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VDVsxnokia start selling symbian 'pieces':
lbtI think16:53
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lbtneed to check if last is set16:54
fiferboyLast initialized to (0,0)16:54
fiferboyI don't see any change in that pastebin, BTW16:54
lbtlast should be set to start way back in16:56
lbtif (scrollState == NotScrolling) {16:56
lbtline 1549 : last = start; // record the last point touched for vel calc16:57
lbtsets last to be the initial touch point16:57
JaffaVDVsx: Interesting. What was the source for that meme about Maemo being for high-end mobile devices?16:57
fiferboylbt: I tried that modification already and had the same issue (at least I think it was that mod, I'll try it again)16:57
GAN800Jaffa, some Nokia VP in the AP a few months ago.16:59
VDVsxJaffa, I think that was quoted from a speech of one of the nokia's VP's, don't really remeber but I also read that16:59
GAN800A comment about Linux becoming an option in the high-end phones.16:59
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JaffaAh yes, I vaguely remember.17:00
* Jaffa wonders how Engadget will react to Rover; given the anti-Maemo stance of their last article (on the Chinese device)17:00
fiferboylbt: Strange, I don't have that last = start line.  In qabstractscrollarea.cpp?17:01
lbtthat's where it *should* go17:01
VDVsxJaffa, engadget is anti-nokia :P17:01
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lbtline 1549 :  + last = start; // record the last point touched for vel calc17:01
JaffaVDVsx: I'm noticing a great variation in tone depending on the author. Although I don't discount institutional bias (although, for consumers the Maemo devices have been fairly lacking for a while ;-))17:02
lbtI'm not keen on vel/vel1 either17:02
fiferboylbt: I'm currently compiling this:
lbtI'd like to try without having both17:02
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fiferboyIt should be the same thing, just a little messier17:02
VDVsxJaffa, e.g, catch the dif's :) :  and
VDVsxsame numbers dif interpertations :)17:04
* timeless_mbp puzzles17:04
timeless_mbppeople are actually fixing bugs in bugs.maemo.org17:04
timeless_mbpdid anyone else notice that? :)17:04
Stskeepsscares me too17:04
Jaffatimeless_mbp: URL or it isn't happening17:04
lbtmgrs on holiday?17:05
JaffaPresumably you're surprised cos they're in Maemo Devices' products (rather than Mer, etc)17:05
lcuk"fixed in fre ^W harma ^W Diablo??" :D17:05
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timeless_mbpf you sort by bugid, it's the last bunch or so17:07
Jaffatimeless_mbp: Now you're just showing off your bugzilla-fu ;-p17:07
timeless_mbphas "shorten bug query"17:07
timeless_mbpwhich is something everyone needs17:07
lcuktimeless_mbp, if you are in the same building as danielwilms and you see him, tip your hat and wish him a pleasant weekend from me :)17:07
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timeless_mbplcuk: hrm, i'd have to vpn in, and it's 5pm17:08
timeless_mbpi'd rather go home17:08
lcukyeah he just left lol17:08
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JaffaOooh, PyMaemo bugs being fixed. I have high hopes for   #478217:08
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timeless_mbpJaffa: anyway, does the query make sense/17:09
Jaffatimeless_mbp: yup17:09
timeless_mbpfor people too lazy to click "edit this query",
timeless_mbpand for people who want to know a bit more about queries:
timeless_mbp(that's for people too lazy to click "Give me some help")17:10
timeless_mbpfor people curious about why i'm filing bugs in BlueZ,....17:11
timeless_mbpit's mostly because i can17:11
timeless_mbpthey seemed open to bug filing and willing to fix them :)17:11
Stskeepsit's a shame that's not a big thing in open source projects to be like that17:12
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timeless_mbpif someone can figure out which other projects are open to bugs17:15
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timeless_mbpi'll gladly file a handful17:15
timeless_mbpit's trivial for me17:15
timeless_mbpi only have to start my vpn, which is just a minute of pain17:15
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fiferboylbt: I had to set vel1 = vel in the if(last_ev_time) statement, because the MouseMove event in ManualScroll needs vel1 to be non-zero17:24
fiferboyIt is now working for the specific case I found, and it doesn't seem to break scrolling in any other case17:24
VDVsxJaffa, I remembered something about our previous talk topic, and here's the article:
JaffaVDVsx: ta muchly17:27
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lbtfiferboy: OK17:28
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fiferboylbt: Scratch that, I have broken overshoot stabilise at some point...17:29
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VDVsxfor smokers: :P17:30
GAN800I'd hate to see that go off in somebody's pocket.17:31
GAN800Or think of the viruses.17:31
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qwerty12_N810I'd like to see someone trying to take that onto a plane17:31
GAN800It would make a pretty kickin' IR flashlight, though.17:32
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VDVsxqwerty12_N810, should pass in the infra-red machines without problems, I guess :)17:32
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lcukVDVsx, i would rather see cellphones and mobile devices powered by lighter gas :)17:37
lcuksame reful port as lighters, top it up and use it17:37
lcukhell, they even have the distribution network setup :)17:38
GAN800lcuk, we need to get you some patches. :P17:39
* GAN800 is baffled at Michael Jackson's excessive popularity overseas.17:40
lcukits not excessive, he was billed as king of pop and lived up to it for many people17:40
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GAN800lcuk, sure, but he doesn't have anywhere near the popularity in the US.17:42
lbthe's black. The US is racist17:43
lbtmost of the ROW don't care17:43
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lcuklbt, not fair, i would expect an awful lot of americans are also not racist17:43
GAN800lbt, bullshit.17:44
GAN800How much time have either of you spent over here? :)17:47
fiferboyGAN800: Be honest, do you think your country would vote for a black man as president?17:49
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JaffaCrazy talk17:51
milhousebut "pop" music is for kids... most people I know listen to every thing but "pop", so it is excessive...17:51
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Jaffamilhouse: But most people who don't listen to pop now would've been kids into Michael Jackson in the 80s17:52
milhouseGAN: I've seen Borat... :)17:52
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milhouseJaffa: I listened to him when I was a kid, I liked Off the Wall, but I still think the wall-to-wall coverage is excessive17:53
milhouseThe excessive coverage of dead celebs is a now a very worrying trend in the media :(17:53
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GAN800milhouse, :rolleyes:17:56
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GAN800milhouse, there are horribly racist people in every country on the planet.17:57
GAN800That doesn't mean that every country is racist.17:57
milhousesadly - and they come in all shades too17:57
milhouseGAN: I never said it was17:57
GAN800There were a couple of them at MJ's funeral, in fact. :)17:58
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milhouses/it was/they were/17:58
infobotmilhouse meant: GAN: I never said they were17:58
timeless_mbpandre__: why the cc's?18:01
andre__timeless_mbp, because i might want to set a proper TM later on when I know from which kernel revision a nokia software product is shipped18:02
GAN800milhouse, unfortunately lbt's assertion seems to be that the US is the only country in the world with racism.18:02
GAN800Which is clearly bs.18:02
timeless_mbpandre__: oh18:02
GAN800I've talked to a lot of European tourists, many of them are quite racist. Does that mean all countries in Europe are racist?18:03
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milhouseThose French - all bastards18:05
pabloI installed libqtanimation-dev , but when I created one example using QtAbstractAnimation , qmake dont find the packages... Solution!?!?18:06
lbtheh... excellent troll - sorry - but I would have discussed it if the phone hadn't rung18:08
milhouseJaffa (and anyone else): If you're interested by the recent media obsession with dead celebs, Charlie Brooker covers it quite well
GAN800If anything, MJ really broke down a lot of the racial barriers since he was a so non-threatening.18:12
milhouseBasically, he says (and I agree with) popular opinion is now more news worthy than... er... real news.18:12
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milhouseGAN: I never found Stevie Wonder particularly threatening either.18:13
GAN800Helloooo, 198418:13
GAN800milhouse, you're probably not a racist.18:14
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milhouseI like to think I'm not18:14
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GAN800The world will probably be a happier place when Nokia finally releases that goddamn tablet.18:29
milhouseAnother Charlie Brooker classic commentary on media coverage, with perhaps more relevance to the US... skip to 5:55 then listen to the forensic psychiatrist who is sadly spot on:
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milhouseGAN: Their shareholders will no doubt agree after the recent financial results.18:32
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JaffaGAN800: s/tablet/device/18:34
GAN800Jaffa, thingamabob.18:36
GAN800Or, quite possibly, 'piece of shit'.18:36
qwerty12_N810"Bong". Clutter is there to give you nice psychedelic effects18:37
StskeepsNokia Bong. ;>18:37
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infobotI herald you, my supreme master! Lead us into the light of your wisdom and power18:59
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GAN800infobot, don't be a brownnoser.19:00
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lbtgit is ridiculously cool19:24
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Jaffalbt: I think I prefer bzr - simpler for my svn-addled mind to understand19:26
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lbtit's the easy branching that is so useful19:27
lbtalthough I have to admit that visualising it with gitk was essential to get a handle on it19:28
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lbtnow I'm supporting feature branches on an upstream svn project19:28
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fiferboylbt: I can say enough good things about git now that I know it19:33
lbtfiferboy: it's like zombies and vampires... shuffle after Jaffa and infect him ;)19:34
lbtI'm going to kick the living crap out of glibc19:35
fiferboylbt: For OSB?19:35
JaffaI've done bits with it, and selected it (and as a VCS for a new project; but I'm not sure I "get" it completely.19:35
lbtfiferboy: yes19:35
lbtJaffa: total immersion for a couple of days in a real-world environment19:35
fiferboyJaffa: Once you start using it more than a bit, it becomes REALLY useful19:35
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lbtfiferboy: have you played with gitk ?19:36
fiferboyIt took me a lot longer than I thought it would to grasp the concepts, but once I started working with it it all started to fall into place19:36
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fiferboylbt: I have used it to visualize a merge or so, but I'm sure I haven't used it to its fullest19:36
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fiferboyWhat do you use gitk for?19:37
lbtI just used it to transplant a load of commits + branches from one repo to another19:37
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lbtyou've seen my gitorious page?19:37
fiferboylbt: I thought it was only for investigating, you can perform functions with it?19:38
lbtoh yes19:38
fiferboylbt: Which one? ;)19:38
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lbtright click on a commit and cherry pick, diff -> selected, create branch19:39
lbtcheckout branches... all sorts19:39
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fiferboylbt: Have you tried any other repository browsers?19:45
murraycYikes. DikiKey don't seem able to deliver BeagleBoards: "Production for this board has currently been disrupted and we have not19:45
murrayc been provided a19:45
murrayc revised delivery date at this time.  We will continue to update you on19:45
murrayc this status as more19:45
murrayc information becomes available."19:45
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Stskeepshmm, that sounds weird19:45
florianmurrayc: Try EBV, they build their own ones.19:46
murraycI'm asking them for vague details.19:46
murraycflorian: Yeah, if necessary. I just wanted something common and standard. Even the same models of boards from the same vendor can be different enough from each other19:46
xnt14~seen b-man1619:46
infobotb-man16 <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 1d 13h 39m 56s ago, saying: 'i'm shure you can find one for under $200 ;)'.19:46
lbtfiferboy: I don't like the gitgui thing though... dunno why19:46
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Stskeepsmurrayc: it's explained in i think19:47
murraycStskeeps: Oh, thanks. That's reassuring.19:49
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lbtStskeeps: either you browse the entire internet everyday or you have damned good google-fu... which is it?19:49
murraycIt's nice that they have so many orders.19:50
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GAN800murrayc, jkridner is the contact for TI/Beagle on Freenode.19:50
Stskeepslbt: i have damned good google fu when i put my mind to it :P19:50
fiferboylbt: It is my "Infinite Oscillations" commit that breaks overshoot, I'm fixing it19:52
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* lcuk smiles20:07
* RST38h moos20:08
lcukhiya rst20:10
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VDVsxShadowJK, just in case you haven't seen it yet, here are the Surge specs: :)20:23
* RST38h can almost bet ShadowJK is salivating over Surge20:26
ShadowJKnot particulary20:26
RST38hShadow: It looks like the best E70 replacement so far20:27
lcuk2VDVsx, it LOOKS good, but resolution is somewhere between the stone and iron age20:27
ShadowJKWell it looks like a E75 sans numerical keypad...20:28
ShadowJKor 573020:28
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adeusyeah interesting resolution20:28
ShadowJKE70 has higher res20:28
GeneralAntillesSymbian 3.2 needs some phones with non-shit resolutions.20:29
VDVsxnot a word about the processor unit, but should be a normal arm1120:29
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RST38hShadowJK: It looks less flimsy and has better keys though20:30
RST38hGeneral: No luck there, thanks to goddamn WinCE20:31
chxinteresting phone, that Surge!20:31
RST38hGeneral: It was WinCE and its lack of support for other screen sizes that determined the 320x240 standard20:31
chxdoes Skype run on S60?20:31
RST38hNot directly anyway20:31
GeneralAntillesI'm sorry, but trying to do anything useful besides taking calls on QVGA is hilarious.20:31
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chxoh my :(20:32
RST38hSIP runs though, so no big deal20:32
ShadowJKthere is a S60 skype version, but it's not publicly available20:32
RST38hGeneral: I know :(20:32
ShadowJKand it's retarded liek the iphone  version20:32
* RST38h got invite to Google Voice but could not register :)20:32
RST38hHave to retry from work through a Santa Clara proxy =)20:33
chxthe N810 at least has Skype.20:33
chxbut the poor thing, so slow a CPU.20:33
ShadowJKE75 and 5730 aren't flimsy at all20:33
RST38hchx: Skype complained once that they just can't figure out how to port it to Symbian :)20:33
GeneralAntillesThat's why you should use a service with open protocols.20:34
* RST38h uses a calling card and a normal landline phone :)20:34
RST38hOpen protocols!20:34
chxthats really nice and could you please convince the world to use open protocols, too?20:34
GeneralAntillesI'd hate to pay for phone services that only worked with phones from that company.20:34
GeneralAntilleschx, Gizmo.20:35
chxoh well20:35
RST38hchx: I have better idea, let us just kill all humans, should we?20:35
GeneralAntillesNobody I know uses Skype.20:35
chxi am an open source developer so yeah open source.20:35
chxgood for you20:35
chxeveyrone i know does and then some20:35
RST38hGeneral: You are unusual in this sense20:35
GeneralAntillesRST38h, no, not really.20:36
derfNobody I know uses Skype.20:36
ShadowJKRST38h, oh, surge has the bigger battery, that's nice20:36
GeneralAntillesMost normal people don't use VoIP services.20:36
chxI find it *hilarious* when I say "i need skype" the answer is "no you dont"20:36
chxI do not use VoIP either20:36
chxit's an IM app20:36
chxthat's about it.20:36
ShadowJKfring does skype on S60 anyway..20:36
* Stskeeps has good benefit of skype when abroad or fiancee abroad20:36
chxdoes it?20:37
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lcuk2skype kicks ass20:37
chxhow come?20:37
ShadowJKwhat do you mean how come?20:37
chxthey reverse engineered Skype?20:37
lcuk2i was more than a little miffed to discover that on n810 it wasnt usable in video mode20:37
GeneralAntilleslcuk2, Skype sucks. I'd rather use something I can actually use on several platforms.20:37
lcuk2yeah windows, linux20:38
lcuk2is there a mac client?20:38
RST38hShadowJK: Using Fring is like pulling your fingernails20:38
GeneralAntilleslcuk2, sipphone.com20:38
lcuk2i didnt ask that20:38
GeneralAntillesWorks with any SIP client.20:38
lcuk2is therea skype client for mac20:38
GeneralAntillesNo need to wait for Skype to support your platform.20:38
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chxyeah there is20:38
ShadowJKRST38h, yeah, so the experience is identical to skype.. that's what you wanted, right.20:38
chxGeneralAntilles: try to understand this20:38
lcuk2so skype works multiplatform20:38
GeneralAntilleschx, not talking to you.20:38
RST38hShadowJK: My Skype experience has been pretty flawless20:38
lcuk2and FRIENDS and family know what it means20:38
chxGeneralAntilles: I need Skype as an IM/chat platform because everyone uses it. SIP is not IM.20:39
RST38hShadowJK: I still dislike it but for purely physical reasons20:39
GeneralAntilleschx, Jabber.20:39
lcuk2"you got skype" results in a number usually20:39
GeneralAntillesBut, really, don't be so self-centered.20:39
lcuk2"you got sipphone account"   would get me blank looks20:39
GeneralAntillesUsually when I intend to direct things at specific people, I append their name to the front.20:39
GeneralAntilleslcuk2, Gizmo.20:39
RST38hShadowJK: 10 non-English speakers trying to speak English in a room in front of a laptop, with their audio packets getting dropped makes for a very bad experience20:39
lcuk2same problem20:39
lcuk2"skype" has broken beyond the pc20:40
ShadowJKI think the best thing about SIP is that it works with anything. So, I can just get a normal-looking tablephone that does SIP, and replace the normal phone with that, while keeping the old telephone number and everything. No need for the user to learn any new computer software :-)20:40
RST38hShadowJK: In theory, yes20:40
ShadowJKRST38h, in practice too20:40
RST38hShadowJK: In practice you are wrong though20:40
lcuk2people can pay for skype service - hence helping its legitmetness20:40
RST38hShadowJK: SIP "flawless" work depends on many things20:40
chxSo what is the difference betwen 6790 and 5730?20:40
ShadowJKRST38h, I did it in practice for my parents. There wasn't even any setup required, just plugged it into ethernet and the phone automatically retrieved correct settings :-)20:40
RST38hShadowJK: Your client should be compatible. There should not be any weird NATs between your device and the world.20:41
ShadowJKchx, there's a compare device section20:41
RST38hShadowJK: The connection should not drop packets.20:41
lcuk2chx 106020:41
chxShadowJK: where20:41
RST38hShadowJK: There is a lot of potential problems in SIP20:41
RST38hShadowJK: Just because you got lucky does not mean it always works. Skype, on the other hand, does always work, if you have got two Skype clients :)20:42
ShadowJKRST38h, it works flawlessy over double-nat and a wireless link that shows 20% icmp packetloss when downloading, and there's no drop in voice quality when downloading either. I was very skeptical at first, but practice proved me wrong :-)20:42
chxthe surge is smaller but has a similar screen and has a beast for a battery?20:42
RST38hShadowJK: Well, does not work for me.20:43
ShadowJKAmusingly, skype works far worse on the exact same connection20:43
RST38hShadowJK: I have eventually got the outgoing calls to work but then dropped the idea of using SIP after it dropped too many packets over my WiFi connection20:43
GeneralAntilleslcuk2, by the way, I'm repurposing the web site design since you don't want it.20:43
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ShadowJKRST38h, it even worked perfectly over wifi between my E70's notoriously weak wifi :-)20:44
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RST38hShadowJK: Relatively simple setup too: E70 -> DI-624 (NAT there) -> provider (another NAT) -> sipnet.ru20:44
lcuk2GeneralAntilles, dont ever assume i dont want :) i have a long leash, i am still thankful for what has been started there20:44
lcuk2and it will be used :P20:44
lcuk2i made this work just last week:
lcuk2multiselecting graffiti wall - look at the dates on there20:45
lcuk2i have been sidetracked with things20:45
RST38hOh! Icons!20:45
lcuk2RST38h, ? on mine20:45
lcuk2i had them for ages20:45
lcuk2i allowed classic liqbase to use any sketch as an icon ;)20:46
lcuk2that is old news :P20:46
RST38hlcuk: You know the last little thing you have left to do?20:46
RST38hlcuk: Catch wazd ASAP, show him this screenshot and ask him for real icons20:47
lcuk2cos that editor doesnt exist20:47
ShadowJKlol, surge has the 2.5mm audio connector. That sucks20:47
RST38hreally? what is this image then?20:47
lcuk2the image was my hand drawn mockup of what i wanted the graffiti wall to look like20:47
RST38hShadowJK: It is Nokia, they had to spoil it right?20:47
lcuk2i made it real this week20:47
ShadowJKRST38h, yeah, and no wlan?20:47
lcuk2the multiselectability20:48
RST38hShadowJK: ah.holy.shit20:48
lcuk2and having it actually work20:48
lcuk2i had stuff i needed to adapt to do it properly20:48
RST38hlcuk: contact wazd. really.20:48
lcuk2RST38h, you do not see everything, but yes i already know to do that :)20:48
* GeneralAntilles sighs at no DisplayLink PPC support/20:48
RST38hlcuk: once you get the real icons you will fill obliged to finish it :)20:48
chxit seems that i lsot my almost brand new N810 and I am now wondering how to continue20:48
ShadowJKRST38h, yeah see, if they add a battery that would give you useful usetime, they remove something else you'd want.. like wlan and native voip :-)20:48
lcuk2RST38h, nahhh i wont20:48
chxthere are so many choices...20:48
lcuk2cos theres no point in icons until the functions are there20:49
RST38hShadowJK: Nokia.20:49
RST38hShadowJK: At least Modest is not there :)20:49
ShadowJKthis whining about modest is kinda old :P20:49
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ShadowJKwhere's mutt!20:50
RST38hBSD mail20:50
RST38hmutt is for wussies20:50
lcuk2RST38h, i have a bit of a sprint this week anyway (time off work for a change!) so i will be in a better shape by the end of it :)20:51
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RST38hgo, lcuk, go! :)20:53
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chxwhat does the channel think of the  aigo MID P8861H ?20:57
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GAN800MID are hilariously oversized with terrible battery life.21:06
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ShadowJKGAN800, tiny is best:
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GAN800ShadowJK, thankfully I don't live in my mobile devices.21:18
GAN800MIDs are big enough that they require a bag, and if you're needing a bag you might as well get a netbook.21:19
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GAN800Besides, you're a bad place when 'powersaving' is defined as "turn the device on and off everytime you use it'.21:22
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RST38hThere are now smaller mids on the market21:22
RST38hStill power hungry of course21:23
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GAN800Smaller still doesn't equal pocketable.21:23
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* ShadowJK doesn't care about pocketable at all21:23
RST38hwell, smaller ones fit cargo pants now21:23
ShadowJKcan't use it in my pocket :-)21:23
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hooeyFinally, I'm back.21:23
ShadowJKnot until video glasses and some clever method of input anyway21:23
RST38hNeural probes!21:24
ShadowJKsomething like that :-)21:24
RST38hPreferably shaped as long, sharp needles21:24
ShadowJKI wonder how much power the screens use21:24
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GAN800A large portion.21:24
coldbootFinally, I'm back.21:24
RST38hShadow: ~50% of the total21:24
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coldbootIf you have an ATI video card, DO NOT upgrade to Ubuntu 9.10.21:25
ShadowJKsmartq7 has huge battery.. on spec atleast21:25
toggles_wcoldboot: ouch... what happened?21:25
coldbootThen, promptly buy an Nvidia card, and burn your ATI with molten lava.21:25
coldbootI had 30 days of uptime.21:25
coldbootThen I try to run Xine, and X crashes... or actually shuts down, because I saw the shutdown messages.21:25
coldbootThen I try to run X again.21:25
coldbootSurprise surprise, one of Ubuntu's patches has fucked up my ATI proprietary driver over the last month.21:26
coldbootSo I can't start X.21:26
coldbootI try fixing the driver, installing a new driver, nothings works.21:26
coldbootI used to work for ATI years ago on a coop, on their Linux driver team.21:26
ShadowJKboot an older kernel? ;)21:26
coldbootI knew how fruitless this was.21:26
fiferboycoldboot: Can't you re-write the driver :)21:26
coldbootI didn't work on the driver, just wrote utilities.21:27
coldbootI could have booted an older kernel.21:27
coldbootBut compiz was also broken, so I figured it's been a while since 9.04 was released, so I thought I'd try it out.21:27
coldbootThen VESA, radeon, and ati drivers aren't working at all. They all hard lock the system, even with a default xorg.conf.21:27
coldbootSo then I was completely fucked.21:28
coldbootGetting the new fglrx driver would render a small improvement, X would be black-screen, instead of hanging, and I could enjoy my capslock lights.21:28
mgedminand I thought things were bad in 9.04 for people with Intel video21:28
coldbootDon't use ATI if you can avoid it, their Linux drivers are total shit.21:28
coldbootNot much at all has improved over the last 6 years.21:28
coldbootThey write terrible software.21:28
toggles_wi thought alex etal were doing a great job21:29
toggles_wgranted, not ati, and no compiz support yet, but they run my cards ok21:29
fiferboymgedmin: What is the problem with Intel video in 9.04?21:29
ShadowJKcoldboot, oh does ubuntu 9.10 use KMS? that might cause it21:29
coldbootThey're doing the best they can, but the company doesn't make a serious commitment to Linux, and doesn't really care.21:30
* mgedmin had the open-source radeon driver working quite well on his ancient radeon mobility l7 21:30
coldbootGetting acceleration to work is always a pain.21:30
lcuk2coldboot, if it worked fine for a month then went in a flash means its being updated and will generally become better21:30
mgedminit was either slow or crashed a lot21:30
mgedminthings got better21:30
toggles_wcoldboot: yeah, but i think radeonhd is making pretty decent progress, another couple of releases should see it working ;-)21:31
coldbootIn terms of track record though, Nvidia has done much better.21:32
fiferboymgedmin: I notice desktop effects periodically turns off with my Intel video, but at least I haven't had a freeze21:32
coldbootThey had a great installer years ago, and still do.21:32
coldbootI still get dangling fglrx.ko objects which completely screw up the driver.21:32
mgedminfiferboy: that's a compiz crash; just happened for me the other day -- actually, that was the first time it crashed on me in 9.0421:32
mgedminthe linux software ecosystem is extremely unfriendly to source-less software21:33
fiferboyI used KDE's desktop effects, that must be why I haven't had it21:33
mgedminit's almost as if they don't want non-open-source-software to exist21:33
mgedminfiferboy: then I take back everything I said about compiz -- I don't know how KDE's desktop effects are implemented21:33
mgedminmaybe KDE just notices slowness and turns them off21:33
mgedminno crash necessary :)21:33
* mgedmin notices the channel21:34
fiferboyThat could be21:34
mgedminoh, by the way, maemo mapper and osm2go don't fit into 128 megs of ram at the same time :(21:34
ShadowJKit's not like anyone is actively trying to break closed source software, or tivoize linux distros to only allow opensource software...21:34
ShadowJKthere's far more unfriendly behaviour from the other side :-(21:34
mgedminI wish someone looked into maemo-mapper's memory issues21:34
mgedminI suspect sqlite's caches are to blame21:35
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lcuk2mgedmin :) your stance on open source software is great, don't let the channel id effect how you speak21:35
mgedminI don't recall memory issues back when m-m used plain tiles21:35
* lcuk2 learnt a lot from you :)21:35
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* ShadowJK vaguely recalls saying something about sqlite and performance issues yesterday in between thunderstorm killing internets..21:35
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* mgedmin hasn't noticed performance issues unrelated to memory21:36
ShadowJKmemory and I/O21:36
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mgedminI think every time maemo-mapper starts queueing hourglasses in the corner, I see that it uses a lot of memory and CPU21:36
mgedminso I think it's simply swapping21:36
mgedminswapping kills performance21:36
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mgedminwouldn't it be awesome if there was a simple knob somewhere that you could turn and tell sqlite to use less memory for cache21:37
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mgedminthat of course assumes my blind uneducated guess is right21:37
mgedminthis would probably make a fine maemo summit talk: "how I optimized maemo mapper's memory usage"21:38
mgedminhint, hint21:38
ShadowJKso the OS has a cache and Sqlite has a cache. That's twice the ram already, except sqlite probably doesn't shrink its cache if memory is short... :P21:38
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lcuk2that implies a recompilation requirement for cache changes21:39
* Jaffa needs a new topic for a Summit talk, if he wants to save money and get sponsorship21:39
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Jaffa"Vala for Maemo development" doesn't sound like a long-lived idea anymore21:39
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mgedminokay, that FAQ says the default cache is 2 megabytes21:39
lcuk2mgedmin, you could attempt to vacuum the db,21:39
JaffaMaybe, "Development in the real world: IDEs and what they can do for you"21:39
mgedminnot exactly all-memory-consuming21:40
* lcuk2 knows it as compact and repair :P21:40
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slonopotamusJaffa, talk about evil of patching the worlld21:40
mgedminwhat happened to vala?21:40
ShadowJKmaemo-mapper messes with screen blanking for me too, i haven't been able to figure out how or why or what, but sometimes with maemomapper open the screen blank time becomes 2 minutes instead of the 5 minutes i've set in control panel :/21:40
slonopotamusJaffa, or 'on-tablet development or whhy python's performance suck'21:40
* mgedmin is seeing hints that nokia is sponsoring (or perhaps encouraging, no idea if $ changes hands) work on pypy with goals to improve performance and reduce memory usage21:41
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* mgedmin was all excited when he heard pypy's plans of mmap-friendly .pyc files21:41
slonopotamusmgedmin, forget it21:42
mgedminmaybe we'll see some results in, say, 5 years21:42
slonopotamusmgedmin, python will never become fast21:42
mgedminbut it could become faster21:42
slonopotamusmgedmin, the only fast python parts are those that are written in C21:42
* mgedmin has 67 megs in OpenStreetMap.db21:42
mgedminoh, right, diablo has no sqlite3 command-line client :(21:43
slonopotamusof course it doesn't!21:43
mgedminuhh, file says OpenStreetMap.db is "GNU dbm 1.x or ndbm database, little endian"21:43
mgedminthat can't be right... right?21:44
slonopotamusand you won't be able to build one manually because diablo's libsqlite in incompatibly patched21:44
slonopotamusmgedmin, why not?21:44
* mgedmin was so sure it was sqlite21:44
mgedminso only poi.db is sqlite?21:45
mgedmindoes gdbm have an in-memory cache?  is it tunable?21:45
ShadowJKstrace maemo-mapper... and bingo, the thing I was talking about yesterday21:45
ShadowJKfsync()... 1 second to execute21:45
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slonopotamusShadowJK, why it needs fsync at all?21:46
mgedminsqlite likes to fsync21:46
mgedminbut why?  what transactions could mm be committing?21:46
mgedminsaving the current track?21:46
mgedminwhere does maemo mapper keep all the data?21:46
ShadowJKsure does consume huge amounts of RAM21:47
mgedmin~/.maemo-mapper/paths.db is an sqlite db21:47
infobotokay, mgedmin21:47
ShadowJK... 4 seconds to fsync21:47
mgedminthank you very much, infobot, for remembering that very useful piece of knowledge21:47
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* mgedmin suddenly realizes why he never noticed21:47
mgedminbecause when you run out of ram, scrolling the map has latencies in tens of seconds21:47
infobot/.maemo-mapper/paths.db is, like, an sqlite db21:47
slonopotamus~/ is home, sweet home21:48
infobot...but / is already something else...21:48
mgedminwhat is /?21:48
infobot~/ is your home dir silly!, or root, of all Unix21:48
ShadowJKinfobot, forget ~/21:48
infobotShadowJK: i didn't have anything called '~/' to forget21:48
slonopotamusinfobot, forget /21:48
infobotslonopotamus: i forgot /21:48
mgedminokay, that's a bit inconsistent21:48
slonopotamus~/ is home, sweet home21:49
infobotslonopotamus: okay21:49
mgedminoh no, the ascii-art half-dna spiral got interrupted21:49
slonopotamus~infobot is just boring stupiid bot21:50
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coldbootha! fooled you, infobot.21:53
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coldbootTracking /opt/maemo, ~/.scratchbox2, ~/.maemo-sdk in git really paid off when I had to clean install.21:56
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ShadowJKheh, maemo-mapper rarely uses more than 20% CPU because it sits waiting on swap or file i/o all the time :)21:57
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javispedro~burn gcc22:00
* infobot pours gasoline all over gcc, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze22:00
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slonopotamusjavispedro, don't touch gcc22:01
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Jaffamgedmin: Vala's a dead-end for Maemo with the move to Qt; unless it had some Qt backends created.22:02
JaffaWhich'd be... challenging (AIUI)22:02
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slonopotamusvala's not needed22:04
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Jaffaslonopotamus: A nice, garbage-collected, high-level language with decent IDE support is needed.22:04
JaffaThat's probably Python now, with PyQt/Pluthon22:05
javispedroand that's called Qt with Boehm's, and is just waiting for anyone to develop it22:05
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Jaffajavispedro: Boehm's?22:06
javispedroa garbage collector which afaik works with Qt22:06
javispedro(for C++)22:07
* Jaffa looks forward to seeing the ASM performance on OMAP3430; perhaps Java'll be a real contender there.22:07
JaffaStill C++ ;-)22:07
crashanddieI'd love to have a good Java implementation on the NITs22:07
crashanddieso I can run Eclipse and program in C++ on the go!22:08
Jaffacrashanddie: javispedro's Jazelle work is promising. And Sun are incrasingly focusing on ARM with Java SE embedded22:08
Jaffacrashanddie: :-p22:08
* javispedro has been playing with jamvm and that's the reason he ~burnt gcc 22:08
* ShadowJK would love to have any java implementation on the nit22:08
crashanddiehave you guys ever worked with ikvm ?22:08
Jaffacrashanddie: not directly.22:09
slonopotamusjavispedro, burn jamvm22:09
ShadowJKwell mostly I'd want midp2, but still :-)22:09
crashanddieabsolutely amazing: converts most java libraries into C#. Absolutely perfect when you have to use that half baked C# language but can still use familiar Java libraries22:09
JaffaShadowJK: Jalimo basically works. I've run equinox and OSGi bundles in X Terminal and written noddy little SWT apps which use it.22:09
JaffaStart up time is the big kicker.22:09
JaffaI looked at having a maemo-launcher like thing using OSGi to have different "apps" as bundles with their own classloaders etc; but SWT doesn't like not being the main thread.22:10
ShadowJKbesides, having a java-launcher just means it'll get paged out while the user uses the browser or something else, and paging it back in is probably slower than launching it from scratch..22:11
javispedroslonopotamus, the problem is gcc and whatever is doing with register allocations and stack. not really gcc's fault, since they clearly say that inline asm is not allowed to break program flow22:11
javispedrobut I'm ranting either way22:11
javispedromemory is the reason I'd wanted jamvm; it's the lightest I know22:12
slonopotamusjava will always be a mem hog22:12
slonopotamustrust me, i'm java developer after all :)22:13
ShadowJKrunning it without jit should save some? :)22:13
javispedrojit usually means 2x memory usage22:13
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crashanddieslonopotamus, java developer as in "you develop using java", or, "you develop java"22:14
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Jaffa19:36 < ShadowJK> so the OS has a cache and Sqlite has a cache. That's twice22:15
* Jaffa wonders what he pressed.22:15
JaffaShadowJK: It'd be paged out, but it'd be paged in in an initialised state22:16
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ShadowJKJaffa, ah but when it's finding something else to page out to make room to page java-launcher back in, the random write/read load will make the SD/MMC behave like a tape drive ;)22:16
JaffaNot a flyer anyway22:17
slonopotamuscrashanddie, in java22:17
ShadowJKhm wait, SWT on maemo?22:18
ShadowJKisn't that the thing that made azureus huge memory and cpu hog and unrunnable on PCs 'til this day? ;)22:18
javispedroI blame the gtk backend ;)22:19
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JaffaShadowJK: SWT's lighter weight and faster than Swing IME. Azureus is slow and bloated as they pile in "rich media content" like a web browser which goes and does flashy effects to show lots of videos I'm not interested in when I want to torrent something22:21
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chxazureus can be cli22:23
* RST38h throws up seeing SWT and Swing mentioned22:23
JaffaSWT's not too bad. Better than GTK+ at least ;-)22:23
Jaffachx: Hmm, interesting.22:24
* ShadowJK hasn't seen any flashy effects, web browsing capability or videos in it22:24
qwerty12_N810I think that came when it was renamed to "Miro"22:26
ShadowJKit's miro now?didn't it rename to something else before that22:27
Jaffaqwerty12_N810: s/Miro/VCuze/22:27
Jaffaqwerty12_N810: s/Miro/Vuze/22:27
qwerty12_N810Ah, thanks22:27
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RST38hAny assembler wizards around?22:44
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woglinderst arm? x86?22:46
woglindehm little bit22:47
woglindeshow me22:47
RST38hActually I am looking for GNU AS directive that cancels .requ22:47
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derfIs that anything like .req?22:53
RST38hSorry, .req22:54
* RST38h usually uses ARMSDT syntax22:54
RST38hderf: Ah!22:54
RST38hHmm...ok, it compiled. Let us see what it does now22:56
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derfFor future reference:
derfI love, "Note - this pseudo op can be used to delete builtin in register name aliases (eg 'r0'). This should only be done if it is really necessary."22:57
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woglinderst haha ->
RST38hderf: Ah, the beauties of GNU...22:58
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RST38hSegmentation fault <== expected for the first run23:00
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n6pfkjoin #openpandora23:16
qwerty12_N810no thanks23:16
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lbtcoldboot: do you know if fiferboy fixed that short-touch bug?23:25
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RST38hSecond attempt.23:28
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RST38hWow, it runs! 24fps though23:31
RST38hGotta reduce the number of memory accesses23:32
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slonopotamusRST38h, what the hell are you doing?23:33
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lbthe's twittering23:34
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RST38hslonopotamus: coding in assembler23:35
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slonopotamusRST38h, having fun? :)23:35
woglinderst 24 fps a game?23:37
slonopotamuswoglinde, 24 fps assembler!23:38
RST38hwoglinde: kinda...23:39
RST38hwoglinde: GBA rotated screen mode23:39
coldbootShould compiling in armel go just as fast as compiling in i386?23:39
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RST38hcolboot: No23:40
RST38hIf you are using SB to compile armel binaries, your GCC will run on top of Qemu23:41
RST38hAnd native armel compilation is just slow because your device is slow23:41
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slonopotamusnative compilation is ok23:46
slonopotamusjust don't write slow programs23:46
RST38hyes, limit yourself to Hello World please23:48
RST38hfewer bugs this way too23:48
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coldbootRST38h: So right now the armel compiler is going really slow, it's probably not on top of qemu. I've had this problem before, but I don't know what causes it.23:49
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coldbootRST38h: This is in sb2.23:49
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slonopotamusRST38h, gcc is far from hello world, it isn't slow on n80023:52
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JaffaRST38h: I thought Scratchbox 1, compiling to armel, used a cross-compiling x86 gcc23:55
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coldbootWho works on Scratchbox 2?23:55
javispedroand I believe this is the case23:55
coldbootWhat's an easy way to tell if the right compiler is being used?23:56
Jaffacoldboot: One man and his dog, it seems.23:56
javispedrogcc -v should print interesting things23:56
milhouseSo is this legit?
Jaffamilhouse: "legit"?23:58
milhouseor a chinese knock-off?23:58
JaffaLegal, real or useful?23:58
JaffaIt's using bits of Chinook, according to Stskeeps (who's looked at the initfs)23:58
milhouseLegal & Real - I barely considered Maemo 4 useful...23:58
javispedroand the copyrighted firefox icon23:58
JaffaNo word from Nokia if they've licenced the Maemo trademark, for example23:59
coldbootjavispedro: Here's what I get form scratchbox 2 in both targets:
JaffaSo, I guess it's mostly a knock-off.23:59
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milhouseshame if it's a knock-off - it would certainly help maemo to have more device support23:59
milhouses/device/official device/23:59
infobotmilhouse meant: shame if it's a knock-off - it would certainly help maemo to have more official device support23:59

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