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| auntieNeo | isn't there a guide for porting gtk+ apps to maemo? I thought I saw one, but I can't find it anymore :( | 00:00 |
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| auntieNeo | mmm, nvm. I think I found the relevant documentation | 00:04 |
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| RichiH | it seems i managed to lock up the n810 by installing wormux and downloading a map of germany at the same time | 01:42 |
| RichiH | at least well, not lock up | 01:43 |
| RichiH | but the maps applicatiopn does not do anything, any more | 01:43 |
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| RichiH | and i can't close it, either | 01:43 |
| RichiH | do i just switch the n810 off or is there a better way to fix this? | 01:43 |
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| * man_in_shack waves | 02:58 | |
| man_in_shack | ok, this is not fun | 02:58 |
| man_in_shack | oh, nvm | 02:58 |
| man_in_shack | my n810 wasn't loading any apps | 02:59 |
| man_in_shack | turns out it was just being slow | 02:59 |
| man_in_shack | actually, it's going ridiculously slow | 03:00 |
| man_in_shack | load average is insane | 03:00 |
| man_in_shack | wtf is metalayer-crawl? | 03:01 |
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| Luke-Jr | so each "minute" of time remaining on battery appears to be more like 1.5 seconds in reality ;) | 05:26 |
| Luke-Jr | man_in_shack: drop Maemo, it sucks | 05:26 |
| man_in_shack | what do you suggest? | 05:27 |
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| Luke-Jr | man_in_shack: I use Gentoo. | 05:31 |
| Luke-Jr | man_in_shack: KDE is bloated tho, so I don't know of any good DE | 05:31 |
| man_in_shack | xfce? | 05:32 |
| man_in_shack | fluxbox? | 05:32 |
| Luke-Jr | are those Qt4? | 05:32 |
| Luke-Jr | no | 05:32 |
| Luke-Jr | Qt4 is needed or automatic suck | 05:32 |
| Luke-Jr | :รพ | 05:32 |
| man_in_shack | then you're stuck with kde | 05:32 |
| man_in_shack | which is automatic suck | 05:32 |
| Luke-Jr | not automatic | 05:33 |
| Luke-Jr | but this reinventing Qt4 is old | 05:33 |
| Luke-Jr | and MySQL is huge | 05:33 |
| Luke-Jr | not to mention utterly broken PIM | 05:33 |
| EdLin | Luke-Jr: you compile your system using gentoo on an ARM CPU? | 05:35 |
| Luke-Jr | EdLin: I run Gentoo on my N810 | 05:39 |
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| EdLin | Luke-Jr: I know that, but you compile and download your programs on your n810? | 05:40 |
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| Luke-Jr | EdLin: yes | 05:41 |
| Luke-Jr | for the most part | 05:41 |
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| Luke-Jr | qt-webkit is the one exception that requires too much memory to link | 05:41 |
| EdLin | and that's more user-friendly than maemo?! | 05:41 |
| Luke-Jr | I didn't say more user-friendly | 05:41 |
| EdLin | ok | 05:41 |
| Luke-Jr | the topic was resource friendly | 05:41 |
| EdLin | interesting | 05:41 |
| EdLin | now if you could compile skype, since my most CPU intensive performance problems are with it, I might consider it. | 05:42 |
| Luke-Jr | Skype sucks | 05:43 |
| EdLin | well, I have to use it to talk to people via VOIP for free. Not too many people use gismo, etc. | 05:43 |
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| soap | my turned-off N810 consumes less resources than your gentoo. | 05:48 |
| man_in_shack | hah soap | 05:48 |
| soap | doesn't make it a viable option. | 05:48 |
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| Luke-Jr | anyone here use Google Voice? | 07:28 |
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| * xnt14 wishes that he had an invite... | 07:53 | |
| Luke-Jr | xnt14: no such thing | 07:54 |
| xnt14 | I mean account :P | 07:54 |
| * xnt14 sorta confused it with wave | 07:54 | |
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| * xnt14 has to go to sleep... | 07:54 | |
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| RST38h | moo all | 08:00 |
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| Luke-Jr | slonopotamus is a yandere! | 08:51 |
| * Luke-Jr runs | 08:51 | |
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| Luke-Jr | x.x | 08:51 |
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| thux | morning | 09:11 |
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| qtomu | @All: I am getting the message "dpkg: status database area is locked by another process" when trying to install debian package on device using ESBox; I have tried the googled solutions but none of them works... does anyone has any idea... how to fix it? | 09:46 |
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| slonopotamus | Luke-Jr, how's bme going :P | 10:01 |
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| usicow | is anyone aware of an app that lets me run a bash script just by clicking on a button rather than opening up a terminal, becoming super user and running the script manually? | 10:11 |
| thopiekar | moin | 10:13 |
| ukki | usicow: personal launcher? | 10:13 |
| usicow | moin | 10:13 |
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| usicow | ukki: is it possible to run python scripts? | 10:13 |
| usicow | from withing personal launcher I mean | 10:13 |
| usicow | within | 10:14 |
| ukki | can't see why not | 10:14 |
| usicow | ok cool | 10:14 |
| usicow | thanks | 10:14 |
| ukki | i've never tried it so i can't back that up with paperwork | 10:14 |
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| usicow | I'll test it out. | 10:15 |
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| usicow | would it be difficult to make an app with just one big ass button that when pressed runs the script I want? Are there any tutorials or HOWTO's on that? | 10:17 |
| adeus | hmm | 10:18 |
| adeus | I think it would just neet the descriptor file | 10:18 |
| adeus | need | 10:18 |
| qtomu | @All: I am getting the message "dpkg: status database area is locked by another process" when trying to install debian package on device using ESBox; I have tried the googled solutions but none of them works... does anyone has any idea... how to fix it? | 10:18 |
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| timeless_mbp | there's a 'lock' file | 10:29 |
| timeless_mbp | you could delete it, although you should verify the thing that created it isn't runnning | 10:29 |
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| thux | OT i red that iphone got some sms hole? what kind of are those sms holes in generally, some string inside sms or totally something else? (just curious) | 10:32 |
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| ShadowJK | probably | 10:47 |
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| ShadowJK | OTA provisioning and all that, if iphone supports it | 10:48 |
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| thux | ok | 10:49 |
| thux | many times stories like that http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=hardware&articleId=9135090&taxonomyId=12&intsrc=kc_top | 10:50 |
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| thux | but they don't tell step by step how to hole works | 10:51 |
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| ShadowJK | white-hat security researchers traditionally do not release details until after the vendor has fixed and distributed the fix | 10:57 |
| ShadowJK | Not that iphone follows specs very closely, but there's a standard for sending SMS messages containing data or links to software, ringtones, etc | 10:58 |
| ShadowJK | So it could just be as simple that if you send sms to iphone with link to software, it automatically installs without confirmation :) | 10:58 |
| ShadowJK | or something | 10:58 |
| ShadowJK | but that's the kind of incompetence I'd expect from corporations, so.. | 10:59 |
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| Jaffa | Morning, all | 11:20 |
| lbt | morning | 11:27 |
| RST38h | Shadow: iPhone does not install anything automatically | 11:27 |
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| RST38h | In fact, auto-installing software is outside of the SMS standard scope | 11:27 |
| RST38h | It only covers links | 11:27 |
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| florian | good morning | 12:27 |
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| tbf | adeus: i don't see a bug report about libosso-abook vs. C++ on bugs.maemo.org yet ;-) | 14:26 |
| adeus | :P | 14:28 |
| adeus | Now I'm trying to retrieve the data via the evolution dbus api and failing at that as well | 14:29 |
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| tbf | adeus: as i told you, the dbus API is neither documented nor meant to remain stable | 15:00 |
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| tbf | adeus: Qt has optional glib main loop integration since 4.2, and I'd wonder if the maemo build doesn't have this feature enabled | 15:01 |
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| dopper | what's the name of the application that stores xterm commands so they can be clicked from a menu similar to personal menu? I reconfigured my tablet and can't find it in the repositories. | 15:08 |
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| Jcdjs_427 | Hi, i'm a nokia 770 user. I'am a proble when use the Penguinbait deb files... The Tablet view a message erroe: The application could be not installed. Is needed to add the components?. My tablet is a Nokia 770 winth OS 2008HE. Thanks in advance. Jcdjs | 16:42 |
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| pupnik | odd. i see no 'camera' icon under the n810 menus | 17:01 |
| pupnik | but i can run 'camera' from command line | 17:01 |
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| pupnik | where does camera store the pics? | 17:02 |
| RST38h | pupnik: Utilities | 17:02 |
| pupnik | heh odd, not here | 17:03 |
| RST38h | Saves to MyDocs/Images or something like that | 17:03 |
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| pupnik | as png or jpg? | 17:03 |
| VDVsx | pupnik, in home, (in the hiden folders) | 17:03 |
| RST38h | Don't remember, probably jpg | 17:03 |
| pupnik | camera says 645 pics stored, but i can't "find" them | 17:03 |
| timeless_mbp | MyDocs/.images/ | 17:04 |
| pupnik | interesting ty | 17:04 |
| pupnik | camera says 645 images taken, but i just cleared the directory | 17:06 |
| qwerty12_N810 | It may be an indicator of how many images you can take | 17:07 |
| pupnik | ohh | 17:07 |
| pupnik | k it works | 17:08 |
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| johnsq | Hi | 17:10 |
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| pupnik | hi | 17:27 |
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| * xnt14 wakes up | 18:48 | |
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| xnt14 | ~seen b-man16 | 18:49 |
| infobot | b-man16 <n=b-man16@cpe-98-30-195-117.woh.res.rr.com> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 1d 3h 12m 29s ago, saying: 'hello'. | 18:49 |
| xnt14 | lol | 18:49 |
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| johnsq | Re | 20:50 |
| pupnik | moo | 20:50 |
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| RST38h | Climate change is causing a breed of wild sheep in Scotland to shrink, according to research! | 21:02 |
| guysoft42 | hi hi. | 21:03 |
| guysoft42 | RST38h, did you seek xkcds extrapolation comic today? | 21:04 |
| mavhc | RST38h: no cause and effect has been proven, perhaps the sheep are causing global warming by shrinking</denier> | 21:04 |
| GAN800 | All more politics than science sadly. | 21:05 |
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| guysoft42 | GAN800, true.. i just had a lecture by Nir Shaviv a month ago | 21:05 |
| pupnik | ? | 21:05 |
| guysoft42 | he has a alternate thorey to global worming | 21:05 |
| guysoft42 | theory* | 21:06 |
| guysoft42 | he says its gamma-rays realted | 21:06 |
| mavhc | and his evidence? | 21:06 |
| guysoft42 | no matter if he is right, but i do agree physics should debate this, and not politicisations | 21:07 |
| mavhc | they did, years ago | 21:07 |
| guysoft42 | he showed us a lot of data.. I guess the main evidence is correlation between the gamma ray deposits we find on earth and the weather | 21:07 |
| guysoft42 | and he says that CO2 is in indirect correlation | 21:08 |
| RST38h | guysoft: No, I do not read this stuff... | 21:08 |
| guysoft42 | he says there is a 400 year delay between the CO2 and warming.. | 21:08 |
| mavhc | but the increase in co2 recently is from fossil fuels | 21:08 |
| RST38h | mavhc: Dunno, although British Scientists (tm) have been duly noted | 21:09 |
| guysoft42 | the real truth is that all climate models have a too big error margin, there are too many parameters | 21:10 |
| RST38h | guysoft: This is too general statement | 21:10 |
| mavhc | and pollution is bad | 21:10 |
| RST38h | guysoft: More precise is "Global climate models that deal with temperature changes do not allow to predict long range (50+ years) well enough to make decisions" | 21:11 |
| mavhc | it's simple really, humans make co2, co2 causes warming | 21:11 |
| RST38h | guysoft: That actually also changes lately and as far as I remember most scientists do agree that the world gets hotter | 21:11 |
| mavhc | we should use more ARM devices, less x86 | 21:12 |
| RST38h | mavhc: Not as simple as that | 21:12 |
| RST38h | mavhc: In addition to CO2 there is methane and freons | 21:12 |
| guysoft42 | mavhc, i too believe in green power, but i do think that there is no evidence for your claim | 21:12 |
| auntieNeo | personally, I think this whole climate thing is blown out of proportions | 21:12 |
| mavhc | which claim, I made 2 | 21:12 |
| RST38h | And a bunch of other gases that cause atmospheric changes, directly or not | 21:12 |
| guysoft42 | mavhc, that we are the cause | 21:13 |
| mavhc | is the co2 increase due to humans? | 21:13 |
| auntieNeo | certainly it's frightening for humans, but the earth has had gone through numerous events in which it was deprived of oxygen or light or CO2 | 21:13 |
| guysoft42 | there were higher temperatures in the middle ages.. for a start. | 21:13 |
| auntieNeo | and the animals adapted | 21:13 |
| RST38h | And here we come to the idea I have been proposing all this time: KILL ALL HUMANS! | 21:13 |
| mavhc | auntieNeo: noone's saying the earth is dead, just billions will die | 21:13 |
| guysoft42 | mavhc, as i said, it seems the CO2 is indirect. when the system warms you get CO2 anyway. it might be a side effect, not the cause | 21:14 |
| auntieNeo | it's only frightening to us because we havn't been here very long and we're a big change | 21:14 |
| auntieNeo | mavhc: I doubt all humans will die anyway :/ | 21:14 |
| auntieNeo | it might be crazy though ;P | 21:14 |
| mavhc | guysoft22: but the increase in co2 today is due to humans, we can prove that | 21:14 |
| pupnik | no big change. the 'hockey stick' is false data. we are recovering from a cool period | 21:14 |
| RST38h | auntieNeo: Depends on how hard you are trying | 21:14 |
| guysoft42 | mavhc, the thorey that prof Shaviv has talks about the ionization of particles in the upper atmosphere, that cause more clouds, that cool the climate | 21:14 |
| GAN800 | mavhc, hardly, and science should ALWAYS seek to question. As it stands, any dissent is immediately shouted down. | 21:14 |
| auntieNeo | I think we'll run out of gas before we kill everyone | 21:15 |
| GAN800 | Politics. Not science. | 21:15 |
| mavhc | hardly what? | 21:15 |
| auntieNeo | honestly, energy is a bigger and more real problem | 21:15 |
| pupnik | gan is riot | 21:15 |
| pupnik | right | 21:15 |
| mavhc | isotope ratios show that co2 increase is from fossil fuels, that's simple | 21:15 |
| GAN800 | mavhc, that the debate was settled years ago. | 21:15 |
| mavhc | which debate? | 21:15 |
| pupnik | great, my garden will grow better with more co2 | 21:15 |
| pupnik | this is climate improvement | 21:16 |
| RST38h | Reboot time. | 21:16 |
| auntieNeo | lol xD | 21:16 |
| guysoft42 | .. but us i said, we have no working model with sufficient error margin. I do find his theory interesting thaugh because it has empirical measurements | 21:16 |
| GAN800 | "mavhc: they did, years ago" | 21:16 |
| RST38h | If anybody can tell me how to make Ubuntu automounter ignore partitions it does not understand on the SD card, I would appreciate that | 21:16 |
| guysoft42 | and with empirical measurements, you can argue, and debate | 21:16 |
| mavhc | so, we know that humans are causing co2 increase | 21:16 |
| mavhc | and we know that co2 causes heat to be trapped | 21:16 |
| auntieNeo | biofuels are a bit scarey, because they burn forest just to grow crops, and then they burn it for fuel instead of feeding the billions of starving people :( | 21:17 |
| RST38h | The only way to verify that for sure is to KILL ALL HUMANS | 21:17 |
| GAN800 | Amen | 21:17 |
| guysoft42 | RST38h, its a pain, i think you need to look at /etc/udev/ somewhere | 21:17 |
| pupnik | the system is not linear, mavhc | 21:17 |
| GAN800 | let's start with all of the lawyers and politicians. | 21:17 |
| mavhc | pupnik: but you agree we know both those things? | 21:17 |
| auntieNeo | I agree with RST | 21:17 |
| RST38h | Unfortunately, there is also a question of what you do with the bodies... | 21:17 |
| guysoft42 | RST38h, you can also make an extra earth as a test zone | 21:17 |
| auntieNeo | we need skynet | 21:17 |
| pupnik | mavhc: co2 is an extremely weak trapper of heat. | 21:17 |
| mavhc | indeed | 21:17 |
| RST38h | guysoft: I actually like my idea better | 21:18 |
| GAN800 | RST38h, Water World. | 21:18 |
| guysoft42 | why does all geophysics ends with throwing politicians of the planet? | 21:18 |
| mavhc | co2 contributes 9-26% of greenhouse effect | 21:18 |
| auntieNeo | guysoft42: because geophysicists don't like being used by the politicians | 21:18 |
| RST38h | GAN: Or Dan Simmons' Earth from Ilium | 21:18 |
| auntieNeo | I THINK | 21:19 |
| auntieNeo | that the best way to remedy this | 21:19 |
| auntieNeo | is for the governments to stop spending so much on war | 21:19 |
| auntieNeo | and more on research | 21:19 |
| mavhc | of course the problem isn't the amount of co2 now, it's the amount it increases every year | 21:19 |
| pupnik | the problem is the politicians | 21:20 |
| GAN800 | auntieNeo, stop spending so much period. :) | 21:20 |
| GAN800 | Think of how much CO2 production will be reduce if all the idiots in Washington stopped spewing hot air. | 21:21 |
| GAN800 | s/reduce/reduced/ | 21:21 |
| infobot | GAN800 meant: Think of how much CO2 production will be reduced if all the idiots in Washington stopped spewing hot air. | 21:21 |
| mavhc | hmm, about 0.00000000000000000001% | 21:21 |
| auntieNeo | GAN800: hell, if the US spend an 8th of the defense budget on NASA, we'd have been to mars 5 times by now | 21:21 |
| auntieNeo | statistics courtesy my ass | 21:21 |
| mavhc | build a space elevator already, it's the only way to get lots of people off the planet | 21:22 |
| GAN800 | auntieNeo, or, instead of collecting all of those taxes it let private industry take us there. . . . | 21:22 |
| RST38h | auntieNeo: By the way, do you have any idea how much fuel is burnt every time NASA sends a rocket into space? | 21:22 |
| auntieNeo | RST38h: :( | 21:22 |
| auntieNeo | RST38h: moon base | 21:22 |
| auntieNeo | space planes | 21:22 |
| RST38h | teleporters | 21:22 |
| auntieNeo | nah, those require a shitload of electricity ;P | 21:23 |
| RST38h | Apple trees on Mars | 21:23 |
| mavhc | collect all the co2, send it to mars | 21:23 |
| RST38h | Instead, you will get mind control and the matrix. | 21:23 |
| auntieNeo | space research isn't all that important... | 21:23 |
| * RST38h cackles evilly | 21:23 | |
| auntieNeo | more like energy research | 21:23 |
| mavhc | need to go to space just before the earth is screwed | 21:23 |
| auntieNeo | lol | 21:23 |
| mavhc | pref a while before so we can set up other planets | 21:24 |
| auntieNeo | it's not like there are many places to go :P | 21:24 |
| mavhc | teraform mars | 21:24 |
| auntieNeo | mmm | 21:24 |
| auntieNeo | teraforming will probably require a lot of research into energy efficiency | 21:24 |
| * GAN800 sighs at useless pain meds | 21:25 | |
| auntieNeo | :( | 21:25 |
| mavhc | why doesn't pain have an overflow off switch? | 21:25 |
| auntieNeo | it's called shock | 21:25 |
| RST38h | Actually, folks, while you are making all these space plans... | 21:26 |
| RST38h | Why don't you consider what is really coming? | 21:26 |
| auntieNeo | Jesus? | 21:26 |
| RST38h | THAT will be later =) | 21:26 |
| auntieNeo | no, he died a long time ago ;) | 21:26 |
| RST38h | For now, you have got corporate governance, indentured servitude for people not able to pay off credit, wars for resources | 21:27 |
| auntieNeo | pffft, leave those problems to the politicians | 21:27 |
| auntieNeo | and I'll vote for the ones that aren't batshit insane | 21:27 |
| RST38h | Oh, the politicians will handle them real well | 21:27 |
| auntieNeo | :( | 21:27 |
| mavhc | a) who cares, b) don't get credit, c) stock up on resources | 21:29 |
| RST38h | Oh, I also forgot the loss of privacy, copyrights, and the political correctness gone crazy, but these are obvious | 21:29 |
| RST38h | mavhc: Lots of Americans do not have a choice on b), c) is also kinda impossible now | 21:30 |
| mavhc | what do they need credit for? | 21:30 |
| RST38h | a) basically means you lose last shreds of control over things | 21:30 |
| mavhc | noone's in control anyway | 21:30 |
| RST38h | mavhc: That is not a question I can answer, different mindset | 21:31 |
| *** L0cutus has quit IRC | 21:31 | |
| mavhc | only answer is a house | 21:32 |
| mavhc | and just rent until prices drop | 21:32 |
| guysoft42 | auntieNeo, more than you think.. | 21:32 |
| mavhc | if you can't afford to rent, live with your parents | 21:33 |
| pupnik | "Government judge proposes outlawing linking without prior permission, to destroy Google news and other aggregators that necessarily have no government-approved gatekeepers" http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/028827.html | 21:34 |
| guysoft42 | mavhc, was that saying about space travel? | 21:34 |
| guysoft42 | pupnik, then lets all link to the article! | 21:34 |
| pupnik | ;) | 21:35 |
| guysoft42 | pupnik, with questionable content attached | 21:35 |
| pupnik | go for it | 21:35 |
| guysoft42 | it can be the next rickrolling | 21:35 |
| pupnik | imagine an internet with that law in place | 21:35 |
| mavhc | how cute, the government thinks it can control the internet | 21:35 |
| mavhc | there's only 2 states of internet access: everything, or enclosing a country in a faraday cage wrapped in a brick wall | 21:36 |
| guysoft42 | pupnik, they might get over it.. thats our job to keep it free | 21:39 |
| guysoft42 | with #iranelection i guess we saw the power it has | 21:39 |
| pupnik | hehe | 21:40 |
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| javispedro | obs is too hard | 21:42 |
| javispedro | i still like the scratchbox approach | 21:43 |
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| javispedro | from the user point of view of course | 21:43 |
| javispedro | (cause the reason that I'm looking at obs is that after triggering for the 4th time some "gcc internal error" vmware crashed) | 21:44 |
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| RST38h | XHTML2 cancelled. Rejoice! | 22:00 |
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| GeneralAntilles | HTML 5, XHTML 2. They both suck in their own little ways. | 22:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | Standards organizations suck. | 22:03 |
| johnsq | back to the roots, use html 1.0 | 22:04 |
| pupnik | listening to dahr jamail now - reporter from Iraq : http://listen.kaosradioaustin.org/kaos-64 | 22:07 |
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| RST38h | pupnik: what is the body count today? | 22:08 |
| pupnik | dunno, they're talking about the IED lottery | 22:11 |
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| mavhc | why does html5 suck? | 22:34 |
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| RST38h | it doesn't, General is just being bitter about not getting his n900 :) | 22:43 |
| MerkurAlex | do you guys think i would be able to get like 170$ for a like new n810 with orig box and almost all the stuff it came with on ebay? | 22:46 |
| Pavlov | whats the going price for new ones? | 22:51 |
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| MerkurAlex | i have seen as low as 200 on ebay | 22:54 |
| MerkurAlex | need a new phone so im hoping i will be able to wait for the n900 as nokia devices are the only ones i am willing to pay over 400$ on | 22:56 |
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| Jaffa | XHTML2 was braindead in many ways; but HTML5's too driven by trying to be HTML4 but better; rather than XHTML1 but better. Dropping the requirement for strictly valid XML's going to be painful. | 22:57 |
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| riddlebox | can i compile some software that i find on sourceforge? it is called roadnav | 22:58 |
| riddlebox | for the n810 | 22:58 |
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| Jaffa | riddlebox: Have you compiled anything for Linux before? | 22:59 |
| riddlebox | Jaffa, yup | 22:59 |
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| Jaffa | riddlebox: Is Roadnav gtk+ based? | 22:59 |
| riddlebox | let me check | 22:59 |
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| Jaffa | riddlebox: Anyway, there's a porting guide on maemo.org | 23:00 |
| riddlebox | cool, it may use wxwidgets | 23:01 |
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| * xnt14 is bored as hell | 23:06 | |
| * xnt14 notices a storm approaching | 23:06 | |
| xnt14 | it has rained everyday here for the past week :P | 23:06 |
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| RST38h | Jaffa: The strictly valid XML requirement is bogus to begin with | 23:20 |
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| jakemaheu | hello everyone | 23:21 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: It does prevent a few syntax mistakes, but just a few. With or without this requirement, there is still plenty of ways to fuck up | 23:21 |
| jakemaheu | i'm finally on for the first time in months | 23:21 |
| jakemaheu | have there been any useful developments | 23:22 |
| jakemaheu | in the time that i've been gone? | 23:22 |
| jakemaheu | seen solca | 23:24 |
| `0660_ | i thought that html5 spec defined two serialization formats (html and xhtml) | 23:24 |
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| `0660_ | and i think the xhtml serialization would require strictly valid xml | 23:26 |
| RST38h | It does, although nobody uses strictly valid xml de facto | 23:26 |
| RST38h | It really isn't such a big deal, even for automated checkers | 23:27 |
| `0660_ | what do you mean by nobody uses de facto? :) | 23:28 |
| `0660_ | i know i use xhtml de facto | 23:28 |
| jakemaheu | my xhtml is valid-- strict | 23:29 |
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| RST38h | 0660: If you look at the web pages on the web, in general, you won't see much xhtml | 23:30 |
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| RST38h | Some people use it, but not everyone | 23:30 |
| `0660_ | that would be expected | 23:31 |
| johnsq | they only use javascript, html is only a container. | 23:32 |
| RST38h | Also not quite true | 23:33 |
| `0660_ | who only uses js? i'm pretty sure most web sites are mainly html :) | 23:33 |
| RST38h | But we will see more js because html5 makes it more useful =) | 23:33 |
| johnsq | than surf with disabled javascript, much fin :) | 23:33 |
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| * RST38h is more surprised with the choice of OGG for default video format | 23:34 | |
| `0660_ | you try surfing with disabled html :) | 23:34 |
| flux | rst38h, hm, but it wasn't chosen?-o | 23:34 |
| `0660_ | i think ogg is great | 23:34 |
| RST38h | flux: it was, apparently | 23:35 |
| flux | hm | 23:35 |
| RST38h | 0660: What is "great" about it? | 23:35 |
| mavhc | opensource people choose ogg, commerical people choose not-ogg | 23:35 |
| `0660_ | i have already seen the video tag in the wild and it's beautiful | 23:35 |
| RST38h | Doesn't play until it loads the video completely, at least in the example I have seen | 23:35 |
| RST38h | Is it configurable? | 23:35 |
| johnsq | one more filter for squid | 23:36 |
| `0660_ | it's license free | 23:36 |
| EdLin | `0660_: it also is terrible for cheap MP3/AAC/WAV players because it requires floating point to process. | 23:36 |
| `0660_ | i would expect it to start playing before it loads the video completely | 23:37 |
| EdLin | oh, you mean OGG for video. NM | 23:37 |
| EdLin | everything requires FP for video | 23:37 |
| `0660_ | maybe the player in firefox is not complete yet? | 23:38 |
| EdLin | Theora isn't going to be as good as MP4 anyway, simply because alot of the good stuff is patented. | 23:39 |
| EdLin | MP4 is evil though, they're going to start charging royalties next year. | 23:40 |
| EdLin | so maybe Theora will win the format war anyway. | 23:41 |
| ShadowJK | What requires float? | 23:41 |
| EdLin | ShadowJK: Ogg/Vorbis | 23:41 |
| ShadowJK | It doesn't. | 23:41 |
| `0660_ | i happily take the almost as good option if it allows me to avoid installing third party plugins | 23:41 |
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| EdLin | yeah, it'd be a great improvement in performance if everything wasn't using the Netscape plug-in architecture. | 23:42 |
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| ShadowJK | I hate plugins. They cripple the browser :-) | 23:42 |
| ShadowJK | Although for a short time during firefox2, plugins actually worked | 23:43 |
| EdLin | ShadowJK: the problem is Netscape plug-ins all have to use the browser pipeline. | 23:43 |
| ShadowJK | (without hanging/crashing the browser, I mean) | 23:43 |
| ShadowJK | anyway, I know of atleast 2 different non-float decoders for Vorbis :-) | 23:44 |
| EdLin | ShadowJK: cool | 23:44 |
| Luke-Jr | `0660_: Ogg is not license-free | 23:45 |
| jakemaheu | firefox seems to still choke after a while for me | 23:45 |
| jakemaheu | memory use goes up to 600MB+ after a few hours | 23:45 |
| ShadowJK | theora and vorbis aren't patent free either, not that anyone cares | 23:45 |
| ShadowJK | (except legal departments of companies) | 23:45 |
| `0660_ | luke, who sells licenses for it? | 23:46 |
| jakemaheu | whether i'm using pandora or browsing 4chan, memory use seems to shoot up and never come back down | 23:46 |
| mavhc | pandora is flash player leaking | 23:46 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: Ogg has *not* been chosen as the default video container (and neither Theora for the default video codec). The HTML5 spec has had _withdrawn_ any codec requirements. | 23:46 |
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| Jaffa | No agreement could be reached with the browser vendors, so no standard defined. (As happened with images years ago) | 23:47 |
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| EdLin | Jaffa: I wonder if MS wanted WMV files with Zune DRM? ;-) | 23:47 |
| mavhc | it's not been chosen, it's been coded as the default by firefox and chrome | 23:48 |
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| ShadowJK | reality becomes then that you can encode once to h264+aac in .mp4, and flash player will play it, and also google chrome in html5 :-) | 23:48 |
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| RST38h | Jaffa: Well, it looks like at least FireFox 3.5 assumes OGG when media type attribute is not presentr | 23:48 |
| Jaffa | mavhc: In that Firefox, Chrome and Opera are the only 3 browsers out of the big 5 which'll support it. | 23:48 |
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| mavhc | and what codecs do they each support? | 23:49 |
| ShadowJK | Assuming anything is probably unwise | 23:49 |
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| RST38h | Jaffa: BTW, you probably know that, does FireFox include ffmpeg now or have they dropped it under public pressure from "open source advocates"? | 23:49 |
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| Jaffa | mavhc: Opera & Firefox & Chromium: Theora only. Chrome: Theora & H264. Safari: H264 only. IEx: who knows | 23:49 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: Dunno, sorry. | 23:50 |
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| RST38h | Jaffa: So, OGG *is* a de facto standard now? | 23:51 |
| mavhc | but didn't you see the chart, IE8 is the most standard compliant browser that's the most secure and the best, I heard it from a guy down the pub named Bill | 23:51 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: In about 30% of the browsers yes. But if you want to reach 50% you need H264 & Ogg. And if you want >90% you need H264, Ogg & Flash. | 23:52 |
| Luke-Jr | `0660_: nobody sells licenses, they're gratis | 23:52 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: I would rather adjust these percentages wrt market penetration :) | 23:52 |
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| Jaffa | RST38h: :) | 23:52 |
| Luke-Jr | `0660_: but Ogg is patented and all implementations copyrighted | 23:52 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: i.e. drop Opera and Chromium :) | 23:52 |
| mavhc | really? safari has 8% market share? seems unlikely | 23:53 |
| RST38h | mavhc: I will tell you in a moment | 23:53 |
| ShadowJK | Luke-Jr, if the implementation has been written within last 50 years, it's copyrighted, of course ;) | 23:53 |
| Jaffa | mavhc: I was going OTTOMH. | 23:53 |
| mavhc | I'm reading wp | 23:53 |
| Luke-Jr | ShadowJK: that alone is not a given; many countries allow the holder to release it from copyright | 23:53 |
| ShadowJK | mm | 23:53 |
| mavhc | is ogg patented? | 23:54 |
| Luke-Jr | mavhc: parts of it, at least | 23:54 |
| Luke-Jr | the patent holder licenses it gratis, IIRC | 23:54 |
| mavhc | xiph doesn't own patents anyway | 23:54 |
| RST38h | FireFox: 45% | 23:54 |
| RST38h | IE: 38.5% | 23:54 |
| RST38h | Chrome: 5.4% | 23:54 |
| ShadowJK | flash: 90% ;) | 23:54 |
| RST38h | Opera: 4.6% | 23:54 |
| RST38h | Safari: 3.87% | 23:54 |
| RST38h | The rest is insignificant | 23:55 |
| Jaffa | RST38h: Is that on your own site? | 23:55 |
| Luke-Jr | fail | 23:55 |
| derf | ShadowJK: Browsers with working JVM's: 80% | 23:55 |
| mavhc | derf: as java isn't in windows now, unlikely | 23:55 |
| RST38h | So, stop at Chrome and you are done | 23:55 |
| ShadowJK | I have a browser with working jvm. Unfortunately, while the JVM works, it hangs the browser. It's facepalm-tastic. | 23:56 |
| RST38h | Jaffa: Yes, but as I serve multiplatform stuff, it is pretty representative | 23:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, bullshit. | 23:56 |
| RST38h | derf: JVM? A moment | 23:56 |
| Jaffa | mavhc: Sun've done deals with the PC manufacturers. They don't need to get MS to ship Java: Dell, Lenovo, HP, Toshiba all do through bundle deals. | 23:56 |
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| derf | That number is based on Wikipedia statistics (they use a Java applet to serve Theora as a fallback). | 23:57 |
| RST38h | derf: Java supported by 83.86% of clients over here | 23:57 |
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| RST38h | derf: So,yes, Wiki is kinda right there | 23:57 |
| mavhc | I had a machine where going to a java page would quit IE | 23:57 |
| derf | Right, Wikipedia's number is "% of clients who successfully streamed a file with Java". | 23:57 |
| RST38h | General: [smiling sadistically] Macintosh - 3.98% of users =)~~ | 23:58 |
| RST38h | General: Linux - 6.91% | 23:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, statistics fail. | 23:58 |
| derf | And I don't have the exact number. | 23:58 |
| RST38h | General: they do, sometimes. | 23:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, yes, yours do right here. | 23:59 |
| derf | But the point is, for "video in a box", Theora can get pretty close to Flash's browser penetration, right now, without installing anything on clients. | 23:59 |
| RST38h | So the stuff I am quoting is probably off by 5-10% but as you may have noticed it changes nothing | 23:59 |
| mavhc | well, it's only in firefox, chrome's video's still beta/alpha | 23:59 |
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