IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2009-07-04

derfmavhc: I don't even think you're listening.00:00
JaffaYouTube's going to use <video>, but only with H264 as - apparently - Theora's not good enough quality at a given bitrate.00:00
GeneralAntillesderf, a common practice in this channel.00:00
* RST38h cringes every time he sees Theora mentioned00:01
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RST38hIs this BBC article related to the topic in any way: "Shoppers Burnt By Giant Chrome Balls" ? =)00:02
mavhcoh, you're on about java00:02
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mavhcis that just audio or video too?00:02
derfRST38h: Considering someone is usually saying something inaccurate or misleading, I often do, too.00:02
derfFor example, Jaffa about YouTube.00:03
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Jaffaderf: In what way was what I said inaccurate or misleading?00:08
RST38hFolks, it looks weird when you argue about some stupid Youtube media player00:08
RST38hBelieve me it DOES NOT MATTER how Youtube plays videos.00:09
derfJaffa: a) Chris DiBona talking out of his ass is not an official position of Google (they have not made an official position, publicly, about what they will or won't do) and b)
Jaffa"Google [...] have indicated a belief that Ogg Theora's quality-per-bit is not yet suitable for the volume handled by YouTube"00:10
derfYes. I belive that statement is inaccurate also, and it is unfortunate that it is in the current draft.00:10
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mavhcdoes this xiph ogg4quicktime thing make safari support ogg?00:11
ShadowJKThat's a pretty damning condemnation from google, considering google is currently using one of the worst h264 encoders in existence :-)00:11
RST38hQuicktime. Puke.00:11
RST38hShadowJK: Well, the have got lowest bitrates :)00:12
derfmavhc: Yes.00:12
Jaffaderf: I don't care one jot whether Theora is a good codec or not. So whether the technical accuracy is there or not, there have been indications from Google - and the current /html5 posted by mavhc also does this - that they aren't going to use Ogg on YouTube's <video> tags due to bandwidth concerns.00:12
RST38hShadowJK: At which Theora probably sucks royally00:12
JaffaGoogle have bandwidth concerns about Theora. This is accurate. Whether or not they are right to do so has no bearing on me being "inaccurate or misleading".00:12
mavhcalso they don't want to reencode 18 billion hours of video again, with a slow encoder00:13
ShadowJKRST38h, yes well, you can make any codec look good by tweaking an encoder for higher bitrates and using extreme bitrates :-)00:13
RST38hOk, found info on Firefox 3.5 codecs. FireFox only supports OGG00:13
mavhcyoutube/html5 doesn't work in chrome 200:13
ShadowJKThe crappy h264 encoder they use is probably blazing fast, yeah00:13
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derfJaffa: You may wish to keep reading further in that thread, specifically to
RST38hShadowJK: I personally do not see the point in YouTube videos00:14
RST38hShadowJK: So whatever their quality is, I am unlikely to watch them00:15
derfAnd I'm not accusing _you_ of intentionally deceiving people. You're simply repeating what has been said elsewhere. That doesn't make it more accurate or less misleading.00:15
ShadowJKI personally don't see the point in putting all this in the browser anyway :-)00:15
mavhcbrowser should be text only, images handled by image viewer00:15
mavhclike in the good old days00:15
ShadowJKwhere by browser I mean html or through plugins..00:15
derfJust like I don't think cdibona talking out of his ass was malicious. It's just what he does.00:15
ShadowJKCertainly on N8x0 you're better off using image viewer :-)00:16
RST38hShadowJK: Sure about it? =)00:16
ShadowJKThe browser consumes huge amounts of ram to display an image00:16
RST38hShadowJKL N8x0 image viewer can be easily crashed by a normally sized image from a modern digicam00:16
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derfmavhc: There's a page somewhere that demos Ogg support in lynx.00:16
mavhckeep them as jpeg in ram, decompress on the fly00:16
ShadowJKI've never seen it crash00:17
ShadowJKeven with large images00:17
RST38hShadowJK: Have swap enabled?00:17
RST38hThat's why.00:17
ShadowJKwell it doesn't crash, it runs out of memory :-)00:17
ShadowJKbut the browser consumes even more for the same task00:17
ShadowJKdunno how quiver is on memory consumption, but atleast it doesn't stall on IO/CPU constantly :-)00:18
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* RST38h recently found 5 copies of browserd happily hanging in memory00:18
ShadowJKIt's nice, it thumbnails the directory in the background when you're looking at a picture, when you tap next picture it scales up a thumbnail, then it seems to load the full picture and do a low-quality scaling of it, then it does high quality scale00:19
RST38hMaybe I should just stop trying to use MicroB... I quit on Modest and it felt good. Getting rid of MicroB should feel even better00:19
ShadowJKthe picture emerges fast, and then the quality is refined00:19
RST38hShould try quiver...00:19
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ShadowJKWell Tear is fast, except it doesn't work on some pages, and it eats more memory than browserd00:20
ShadowJKit's just more.. gradual about memory use00:20
derfRST38h: Wait, you _started_ using modest?00:20
mavhcI just want an easy way to install apps to mmc00:20
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RST38hShadow: As long as I can kill it, it is fine00:20
mavhcwhat do you use instead of modest?00:20
ShadowJKwhereas browserd might suddenly decide it needs 20 meg more, and then releases it after rummaging through it awhile00:20
RST38hderf: Well I have been trying for a long while, even filed bugs00:20
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RST38hderf: That was probably stupid of me :(00:20
RST38hmavhc: Claws00:20
derfI tried claws. It uses too much memory.00:21
RST38hderf: it is ok.00:21
derfIt was okay until it tried to check for new mail. Then it just started swapping forever.00:21
mavhcI only use modest to alert me to new mail and sometimes read new mail00:21
RST38hderf: you probably got lots of email :)00:21
mavhcwith gmail imap00:21
derfRST38h: A little bit, yeah.00:21
RST38hmavhc: it does not do even THAT for me00:21
ShadowJKI don't use any email on cellphone or tablet... or on any computer but my home computer :/00:22
ShadowJKMy email setup isn't very well suited for it :\00:22
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RST38hmavhc: unstable wifi connection often puts it into some weird hung state00:22
derfAnyway, I just use webmail.00:22
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* RST38h uses SSH00:22
derfSlow, cumbersome, but it works, which is more than I can say for the alternatives.00:22
RST38h+ PINE00:22
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ShadowJKoh, ssh+mutt would work for me :-)00:23
RST38hOk, sleep time.00:23
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mavhcso safari just sends <video> to quicktime, but other browsers don't use OS video codecs, directshow etc?00:33
mavhcwhat about safari on windows without quicktime?00:33
derfSafari does not "just" send <video> to Quicktime. It actively disables large portions of Quicktime for security reasons.00:33
ShadowJKIE would probably use OS codecs00:34
mavhcpity it doesn't do that for everyone00:34
ShadowJKfirefox and chrome probably don't have that luxury00:34
derfRight. Because IE wants to make sure your box is rooted.00:35
mavhcwhat's the linux version of directshow?00:35
ShadowJKThere is none00:36
ShadowJKon windows about the only thing that doesn't use OS codecs is vlc..00:36
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RichiHis it normal for a n810 with maemo 2008.5 to become _really_ slow, unstable and hang frequently when you filled almost all of the internal storage?00:45
ShadowJKjffs2 doesn't like getting full00:46
ShadowJKneeds breathing room00:46
GeneralAntillesRichiH, consider:00:47
infobotmethinks boot-sd is
RichiHhow much space should i leave free?00:48
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RichiHon the internal storage, that is00:49
RichiHunfortunately, i do not have any mini SD cards, just micro & normal00:49
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ShadowJKi'm using micro in mine... with micro to mini adapter00:50
ShadowJKI noticed slowness to boot at 15 meg free once :)00:51
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mavhcnoone sells mini now00:51
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xnt14  :)01:55
xnt14~seen b-man1601:55
infobotb-man16 <> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 1d 10h 18m 8s ago, saying: 'hello'.01:55
xnt14argh where the hell is he :P01:55
xnt14btw luke-jr, since you hate flash, :)01:56
xnt14ill tell b-man to rewrite his gallery with it01:57
xnt14or ill rewrite it01:57
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mavhcwith processingjs you not longer have to kill flash to stop high cpu usage, you have to kill the whole page!02:07
Luke-Jror click the Stop button02:08
xnt14dont open that page on the nit02:12
xnt14too slow :P02:12
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* xnt14 eats dinner | brb02:52
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kenNow i want to add a GtkWiget like drawing_area to plugin area,who encountered a similar sitruation?03:56
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kenany idea?04:05
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* xnt14 is back05:10
xnt14well actually I was back a looong time ago, just forgot to update :P05:10
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xnt14on #maemo?05:13
xnt14~seen ljrbot05:14
infobotljrbot <n=supybot-@2002:46bb:1a76:0:2b0:d0ff:fe49:6b31> was last seen on IRC in channel #maemo, 106d 23h 18m 56s ago, saying: 'luke-jr: The operation succeeded.'.05:14
Luke-Jrxnt14: #anime05:14
* xnt14 doesn't feel like05:14
xnt14im deep in code right now05:14
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kellhow to add a GtkWidget in plugin area05:22
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stelleganyone here do kernel debugging over serial console?08:34
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usicowI log into my n810 via ssh using root@my_ip.. to use 'root' (the shell which is spawned with rootsh installed) do I need to add the root user to the sudoers?08:37
usicowthe reason I ask is because even if I use the rootsh command directly, I get permission denied on this script i've got:08:39
usicow./ Permission denied08:39
usicowthis is quite confusing.. even though I'm logged in as root, I need to run sudo /usr/bin/gainroot to get.. root..08:42
stellegyou sure you have execute flag enabled on
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usicowyep,. its set.08:45
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usicowit'll run only if I run this: python2.5 ./wake.py08:45
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usicowI have another test script too wont run, but it is not set as an executable. I'm trying to run chmod +x, but nothing happens. Do I need to do something special to chmod a file?08:47
usicowits strange.. any command I try to sudo, just gets ignored.09:05
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johnxmorning all :)09:14
usicowcan I make it so that the 'Audio clips' directory that I see when I open up the media player points to a different directory? Like with a symbolic link?09:20
johnxI think some people have done that, but for some reason I thought I remembered someone having issues after doing that09:21
RST38hI did09:22
RST38hit works, mostly09:22
johnxm00f RST38h09:22
RST38hehlo johnx09:22
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usicowis anyone using usbcontrol?09:25
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johnxI used it in the past09:26
usicowwhen run it, nothing happens..09:26
RST38hHehe, Palin quits09:27
johnxso, if you plug in a usb device after running it, that doesn't work?09:28
usicowno.. still doesnt work.09:30
usicowI've opened up the file /usr/share/applications/hildon/usbcontrol.desktop09:30
johnxcould be lots of reasons. what kind of device did you try plugging in?09:30
usicowand in there it says the command that it runs is: sudo /usr/bin/usbcontrol09:30
usicowthe strange thing is that for me, if I've got a terminal window open, all sudo commands are just ignored.09:31
usicowits a USB stick that I've plugged in to it.. I know it does work, because it has worked in the past. But I resently flashed the n810 and since then it hasnt worked.09:31
johnxah, no real idea then09:31
RST38hDoesn't it need power?09:33
RST38hIn this case, there is an applet in Extras that lets you power up things plugged into usb port09:33
johnxusbcontrol is the other way to do it09:33
johnxthey're all just running echo host > /sys/.../musb/mode or something09:34
johnxabout 3 out of 4 usb sticks I've tried on the N800 here work fine09:34
johnxthe oldest crappiest one i have demands more power for no discernible reason09:34
usicowever got an external hdd working?09:34
johnxnot gonna happen09:35
usicowhehe ok09:35
johnxneeds too much power at spin-up09:35
RST38h"Nokia Should Lock Up Ovi Store Developers In A Warehouse"09:36
usicowok, another question.. I asked ealier but got to reply. I've got a file called I'd like to make it executable. chmod +x doesnt do anything though. Any ideas?09:36
johnxwhere is it?09:36
usicowon mmc109:37
johnxon a fat16/32 formatted sd card?09:37
johnxfat16/32 doesn't have file permissions09:37
johnxand it's mounted "noexec" IIRC09:37
usicowoh, true09:37
johnxjust move it to ~/09:38
johnxit's probably tiny anyways09:38
Luke-Jrjohnx: yes they do09:39
Luke-JrLinux just doesn't support them by default09:40
johnxfat file permissions? really?09:40
johnxthe only two I know about are "read only" and "archive"09:40
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Luke-Jrthere is also "system"09:41
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Luke-Jrwhich the Linux fat driver will optionally translate to the POSIX "immutable"09:41
johnxok, let me s/ that to "unix-style" file permissions09:42
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usicowhow do I add an entry in the Extra's section of installed applications to run a script to prevent me from having to open a terminal window?10:15
johnxI would look at the files installed by say, usbcontrol package10:17
johnxdpkg -L usbcontrol10:17
johnxand just copy the .desktop file and make it point to your own script10:18
usicowyeah I copied the .desktop file, but its not appearing.. maybe theres another config file that needs to be edited..10:19
johnxi think there's a cache you need to regenerate, or just reboot10:19
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oespirit~seen vimzard12:01
infobotvimzard <n=arunc@> was last seen on IRC in channel #gsoc, 74d 14h 11m 49s ago, saying: 'sid0: :-P'.12:02
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aquatixgood morning all12:31
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man_in_pdawell i FINALLY got this thing connected to a friend's WEP wifi14:04
man_in_pdawould have been a bit easier with working wardriving scripts :P14:05
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wazdheya Maemo14:19
aquatixhey wazd14:21
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RST38hheya wazd14:44
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usicowis it possible for me to make a .desktop file to run a script? I've been trying to work it out but without success. I've got a .desktop file written, but no idea is added to the list of installed applications.16:01
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cheng_99hi, does anyone know is there any network sniffer tools for n810?16:04
ShadowJKwhat do you want to do?16:05
cheng_99do something like tcpdump or wireshark stuffs16:05
slonopotamusShadowJK, to hack pentagon, of course16:05
ShadowJKi think tcpdump is in the tools repo16:06
cheng_99humm. i tried apt-cache, but not there16:06
cheng_99is there any other tools instead of tcpdump?16:07
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ShadowJK add the SDK repository... but whatver you do, don't do apt-get upgrade or apt-get dist-upgrade with it, it'll brick your tablet16:08
ShadowJKor I guess you could click the browse link and get tcpdump and libpcap0.8 manually :)16:09
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cheng_99great. thanks!16:12
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* b-man16 HATES!!! windows vista17:04
b-man16i'm forced to use it untill my tablet gets fixed xP17:05
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b-man16~seen xnt1417:09
infobotxnt14 is currently on #maemo (2d 14h 28m 41s). Has said a total of 35 messages. Is idling for 11h 22m 55s, last said: 'lol'.17:09
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X-FadeQuim Gil is now doing his talk in GCDS.17:22
X-Fadebergie is posting the highlights on the go here:
X-FadeShadowJK: Gran Canaria Desktop Summit17:23
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X-FadeThe talk is about Harmattan already :)17:25
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RST38hXFade: nokia ditching gtk already???17:30
mgedminwouldn't surprise me17:30
mgedminwhy else buy trolltech?17:30
mgedminI'll miss gtk17:30
mgedminas a user, I prefer gtk because the themes are prettier :)17:31
mgedminnokia will make the themes look the same17:31
mgedminas a programmer, I haven't written a single app for maemo during all those years anyway17:31
* mgedmin has a pygtk desktop app for uploading e-books into his nokia over sshfs with a single click, and /me should open-source it some day17:32
* guysoft42 just wrote a patch, that the developer didn't apply17:32
guysoft42.. i wonder where he is..17:32
RST38hanyways, as long as I can still use fb0 I am happ17:32
guysoft42does anyone here know of a way to access Cannon cameras with maemo? i saw someone packaged stuff for it.. but its all commandline17:33
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RST38hthis means that everything they develop for fremantle is temporary17:34
ShadowJKif you set the camera to usb mass storage mode and connect it, it probably just works17:34
RST38hmaybe that is why it all looks so crappy17:34
RST38hShadow: unless his camera onlly supports that picture-gate-whatever mode17:35
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ShadowJKthen it sucks :)17:35
X-FadeRST38h: I'm sure that GTK will still work in Harmattan. It would require a _big_ rewrite to move everything to qt?17:36
X-FadeWell, sure.. you never know. :)17:36
RST38hX-Fade: It will.17:39
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RST38hX-Fade: Completely different toolkit, uses C++ object model, gtk+ uses GObjects17:39
RST38hX-Fade: So, not only the UI but everything else using GObjects will have to go17:39
RST38hX-Fade: Also good luck to them trying to make it work on both Symbian and Maemo without changes: the original S60 is designed for one-handed button operation, Maemo UI is horizontal, touch based, no buttons17:40
X-FadeRST38h: Well, maybe when that time comes, S60 is all touch too.17:41
RST38hX-Fade: Completely different form factors dictate differences in UI. I strongly doubt these guys will be able to reconcile the differences17:41
RST38hX-Fade: Yes, that would mean sacrificing S60 UI model for Maemo one17:41
X-FadeThere are a lot of options, hard to guess which ones they will take ;)17:42
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RST38hX-Fade: But looking at the latest Fremantle stuff, I can't help but wonder if they are doing the opposite, i.e. changing Maemo UI for S60-like UI17:42
RST38hX-Fade: Not a lot, just 2. 3-4 if you are imaginative.17:42
RST38hWhich they do not seem to be, hence 2.17:42
X-FadeRST38h: Grudual moves towards a single point perhaps?17:42
ShadowJKaren't the form factors merging? ;-)17:44
RST38hX-Fade: my point is that there is no single point, because current form factors are different17:45
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RST38hX-Fade: You may try achieving semantic unity (kinda like HTML in FF and HTML in Lynx) but I doubt they will17:46
X-FadeRST38h: But new iterations aren't designed on current form factors :)17:46
ShadowJKIf you flip N810 upside down and draw green and red on the buttons, it looks almost like Tube17:46
RST38hX-Fade: Well, if they just go the tablet way (i.e. 5800/N97/etc) then it is more probable that they will ditch S6017:46
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RST38hX-Fade: But then, you have to take into account the corporate politics, where S60 guys probably won't go without a fight17:47
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RST38hAnd may end up with Maemo resembling current S6017:48
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wazdthe only UI that fits all devices is a console :)17:56
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X-Fadewazd: One window with one button should work too :)17:57
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wazdX-Fade: well, rhen button should have a "make it awesome!" label)17:57
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X-Fadewazd: "do what I want you to do" button.17:58
RST38hX-Fade: "KILL ALL" will do nicely17:59
RST38hIt is shorter, too18:00
JaffaNot having both Gtk & Qt officially supported during a transition seems odd.18:01
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RST38hJaffa: We do not even have a real device during transition18:01
JaffaRST38h: Well, we can assume there will exist a device with Fremantle before a device with Harmattan comes out, I think18:02
RST38hSo, it is already beyond odd into stupid, really18:02
wazdI wonder if they'll show some of the harmattan screenshots or something18:02
wazdor maybe release Fremantle SDK "real" Beta for god sake18:03
JaffaWhat's a "real" beta?18:04
wazdJaffa: with full featured ui and stuff :)18:04
RST38hJaffa: "Real" beta is a beta that fully works, but not on a real device18:05
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Jaffawazd: I'm perfectly happy with them holding some stuff back if it has little to no impact on most app. development since it means we've actually *had* an SDK suitably long enough18:05
JaffaI'm more upset about arbitrarily crap APIs than not having task switching, for example.18:06
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* Jaffa would quite like an accelerometer simulator though18:14
JaffaSince I've got lots of code written18:14
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wazdJaffa: there's not only task switching that's absent18:15
wazdJaffa: portrait mode for example18:15
RST38hwazd: Portrait mode will be absent from the final Fremantle18:15
RST38hwazd: (which is weird considering that they are planning a phone :))18:16
wazdno comments on this statement X(18:17
_berto_RST38h: what do you mean by absent ?18:20
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RST38hberto: Quim once mentioned that Fremantle is not going to support portrait mode on user level18:31
RST38hThere is a loophole provided for hackers to enable it, but as of now, even new widgets do not operate well in the portrait mode (they get cut off afaik)18:31
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GAN800X-Fade, have you have any word from Freenode yet?18:33
wazdRST38h: obvious solution is to make 2 different desktop setups for both modes18:33
X-FadeGAN800: Nope.18:33
GAN800Bleh, they sure love taking their goddamn time.18:34
wazdRST38h: you can even set different widgets for diggerent modes if you want18:34
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X-FadeGAN800: It is probably just lost.18:34
GAN800I was rebuked for even considering asking about it last time I did.18:35
GAN800Not a great way to run an operation.18:35
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_berto_RST38h: they don't get cut off, in fact some like HildonBanner of the menu have explicit support for portrait mode19:03
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_berto_but it's true that much more effort has been put in landscape mode19:05
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Jaffawazd: Portrait, as well as it will be supported in Fremantle, can be done in the beta SDK by using xrandr.19:12
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cheng_99does anyone know why my app launches from command line, but not from task menu?20:10
cheng_99it shows loading, but then didn't launch20:10
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z4chhdoes anyone know why the link quality of wlan0 never seems to approach around 100%? i'm using a c program to check link quality using iwlib...and i can put my tablet right on my wireless access point and still got only around the 80s in link quality heh20:23
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* xnt14 mows the lawn20:40
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wazdxnt14: hope your name is not Job :D21:08
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* xnt14 is back21:14
RST38hwazd: Sorry, did not answer to your last comment, went out21:14
xnt14wazd, no, its not :P21:14
RST38hwazd: No, two different modes for widgets is not the right thing21:14
xnt14well, now my mom wants us to go on a picnic :P, I want to finish  up v3 of my site :P21:15
RST38hwazd: The right thing that is supposed to be on Nokia's task list is "make Maemo widgets scalable"21:15
RST38hwazd: The modes may apply to the layout engine though, because horizontal and vertical layouts may be different21:16
xnt14oh and if you see b-man show his this
wazdRST38h: well, ofcourse separate layouts is not the best solution in the world, but definitely better than nothing and its pretty easy to make I think21:17
wazdRST38h: I'd propose some advanced "zoom to fit" technology that will place widgets in coloumn in portrait mode with zooming them out to fit the with21:19
wazdRST38h: something like that :)21:19
RST38hwazd: except that they do not seem to care about external suggestions =( :)21:19
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wazdRST38h: maybe someday :)21:22
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thopiekarhi there21:43
thopiekarI want you to test something :P open your python interpreter and type in:21:44
thopiekarimport time21:44
thopiekarit should print out the right timezone in which you are atm..21:45
xnt14ok guys , g2g, im going to a picnic :P21:46
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xnt14[away]got to go21:47
thopiekaraah :D21:47
javispedrothopiekar: prints "2" on mine, which is right (CEST UTC+2)21:47
thopiekarok i'm in UTC+2, too21:47
jaska"4" ... but im UTC+3 (EEST)21:47
thopiekarbecause of the summertime in germany21:47
thopiekarjaska: summertime?21:48
jaskayeah, eastern european summer time (finland)21:48
thopiekarworks! :P21:48
thopiekarthanks you21:48
philvEr, shouldn't that be time.timezone/(-3600) to get the actual timezone you're in21:50
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javispedroindeed, cause according to python docs time.timezone should return non-DST timezone21:51
thopiekarphilv: hehe you are right: time.timezone/-1/60/60 .. but it works somehow :D21:51
thopiekarjavispedro: *nod*21:51
thopiekarit has to return it with the dst!21:51
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auntieNeoman, recently people keep randomly messaging me22:04
auntieNeoever since I joined maemo22:04
auntieNeobut I don't know if they're comming from #maemo for sure :s22:04
auntieNeomy name is usually near the top of the list :/22:04
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VDVsxcheck if those users are here or not :P22:05
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wazdany vBulletin theming gurus in here?)23:16
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