IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2009-05-21

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GAN800lardman, ping time was just a little slow. :P00:04
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rmtn800newbie, G'day, newbieone.. How is the force tonight?01:22
lcukhi n800newbie \o01:23
lcukhi lardman lbt \o :P01:23
* lbt waves01:23
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lcuknight at the museum 2 is cool :D01:24
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lbtyou mean #maemo?01:29
lcuklol lbt01:29
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lardmanlcuk: Holly will be glad to hear that :)01:29
n800penmanyou're all on here too?01:29
lardmanHow stable is that sshfs stuff? Will is clobber explorer?01:30
lcukyeah simon, tracy enjoyed it as well01:30
lardmann800penman: no just split personalities ;)01:30
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lcuksshfs has been stable enough for me so far to run visual basic and export entire app designs out into liq* modules01:30
lcuk(basic ui only lol)01:30
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lardmancool, might actually improve explorer's stability then :D01:31
* lcuk wrote an addin to parse vb forms and produce the layouts and also a makefile and stuff ;)01:31
lcukluke-jr, stop gap measure until the designer within liqbase itself is ready01:31
lcuka prototype so to speak :)01:32
luke-jrlcuk: BUT DOES IT USE QT⁈01:32
lcukdoes it fuck, qt doesnt compile fast enough on my tablet01:32
lardmanyuck, c++ code01:32
lcukim not waiting around for ages waiting for one singl,e file to compile01:32
* lbt ignores the pheasants01:32
* ShadowJK will have none of that QT stuff on his tablet01:32
lcuki might start using c++ again once i get a new tablet01:33
lcukbut for now on my 810 its too slow01:33
luke-jrlcuk is too slow01:33
ShadowJKThat's not to say I have anything against QT. However, I don't want TWO memory hogging toolkits in a memory constrained device, and I can't entirely get rid of GTK and be left with a usable tablet, so QT gets the ban for now :)01:33
lcukluke-jr, :) have you actually seen any of my stuff or do you just like bitching at things01:33
luke-jrmy tablet is GTK-less01:34
luke-jrlcuk: it's not in Gentoo!01:34
lcukits open source01:34
lcukport it01:34
lcuki build everything for it completely on tablet - just like you01:34
luke-jrno u01:34
luke-jrQt or fail01:34
lbtShadowJK: I'm hoping the SmartQ5+ will have 1Gb RAM....01:35
lbtand 3D accel01:35
lcuki thought the smartq didnt have 3d either?01:35
* lbt is obviously typing whilst asleep01:35
lcukwould be nice01:35
lbtwell, it doesn't have the specs available01:35
lcukbut after the work ive been doing its not an end game any more ;)01:36
lardmanlbt: it already has 3D accel01:36
lbtI didn't think we had drivers?01:36
lardmanlbt: it does have the specs available01:36
lardmanno drivers, write your own01:36
lcukthats actually good fodder01:36
lardmannot a glib comment, certainly an option01:36
lardmanthere's a link to a CPU manual somewhere near the end of the thread on Talk01:37
lcukcreate raw miniature driver and build on it01:37
lbtwell, as I said, Greg KH is willing to advise01:37
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* luke-jr wonders how long till Nokia realizes everyone will be migrating to SmartQ for next-gen technology if they don't get their act straight01:39
lardmanwell the smartQ is cool, as it's hackable, but really it's not nextgen hw01:39
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lcuksmartq isnt really next gen01:39
lcukits just different01:39
lcuka backwards step in some respects - camera keyboard etc01:39
lcukbut the bigger one looks good01:40
lardmancpu is a bit faster, it may even have the same powervr mbx gpu, hard to tell01:40
luke-jrnext-gen = next generation01:40
luke-jreg, next purchase01:40
lcukanyone know if there are hangers on the back01:40
lardmanah, well few people will buy one over an n800 I wouldn't think01:40
lcuki want a wall mounted version01:40
lardmanunless they want to write drivers and the like01:40
lardmanlcuk: there's a stand, there's an unboxing video, etc., on umpc portal01:41
luke-jrN800 is inferior in every way…?01:41
lcukstand doesnt help01:41
lcukhate the stand on 81001:41
lcuki press it falls over01:41
lardmanlcuk: well there's therefore a gap01:41
n800penmani'm going to stick with the other room for now01:41
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lardmanI mean to make your own01:41
lcukyeah i know - i have the app very well in progress - i have the space on my wall for a bigger device01:42
lcuki want everything together and available01:42
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* lcuk ropes his dad into woodworking lol01:42
lardmanI was close to ordering one today, but it's actually perhaps a bit too big01:42
lcukdepends on usage really01:43
lcukill look in cph01:43
LiraNunawhat's Harmattan?01:45
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lcuka wind01:46
LiraNunaMaemo Harmattan01:46
lardmannext gen+1 maemo software release01:46
lardmanatm we have Diablo, Fremantle comes with the next tablet (soon I hope), then Harmattan01:46
lardmanbear in mind that the n8x0 has had 2 release cycles, chinook + diablo01:47
LiraNunaafter Fermental?01:47
lardmanalphabetical wind names01:47
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luke-jris it just me, or does this SmartQ SoC support h.264 decoding in hardware?01:51
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lardmanyes, though apparently it requires some firmware to be loaded to drive the mini DSP which can access the hw accelerators01:51
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luke-jri c01:51
lardmanthat was my reading anyway, I'd be happy to be wrong01:52
luke-jrmere 40 keys available01:52
luke-jr0x40, sorry01:53
luke-jrcuriously, my Zaurus has exactly 64 keys ö01:54
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luke-jrdoes the CPU have the ability to use the 1.2 V?01:55
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lardmanthat I don;t know, from the dmesg output it looked like it was running at the lower speed/voltage01:56
lardmanask Stskeeps01:56
lardmanhe has a physical unit01:56
lardmanhmm, I guess a simple "BX LR" means a fn does nothing01:58
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luke-jrPDF is copyrighted, FWIW02:02
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luke-jrbut as long as that site with it is authorized, I see no reason a driver based on it would have issues02:03
ShadowJKand you'd need drivers for it too (h264 accel)02:03
luke-jrShadowJK: obviously02:03
luke-jrbut that PDF has full specs for everything I think02:03
lardmanyeah, other than for the firmware required to drive the mini DSP02:05
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lcukcopyright protects copying, a pdf explaining a driver is one step removed from the driver itself - if the end result for us was a pdf explaining a driver in the style of the existing document then yeah its a problem02:06
lcukbut using the documentation and reimplenting a driver from it is fair game02:06
lardmanwell isn't it all fair game in Europe anyway?02:06
lcukthe further east you go, the more fair the game ;)02:07
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ShadowJKWell, all documentation is copyrighted anyway :)02:07
* lcuk moves to hull02:08
lcukall documents are copyrighted arent they now02:08
lcukunless explicitely specified otherwise02:08
luke-jrbut NDAs aren't automatic ;)02:08
lcukit would be hard if all documentation had to be attributed (C)2009 Gary Birkett02:09
ShadowJKSo it might be dubious if you copy big tables, but those big tables might be needed for interoperability anyway... :P02:09
lcukafter every line (C)2009 Gary Birkett02:09
luke-jrwho is Gary Birkett02:09
luke-jrscrew him02:09
lcuki dunno (C)2009 Gary Birkett02:10
lardmandunno, but I'm going to copyright him ;)02:10
* lcuk is mostly copyleft02:10
lardmanluke-jr: be careful with your random screwings, people may take offense02:10
lcukand the rest is still embedded in a doorway somewhere remote02:10
luke-jrlol XD02:10
luke-jrso who is it02:10
lardmanit's lcuk02:11
luke-jrI seem to be pissing lcuk off a bit too much today02:11
lcukyes luke, thats the second time recently :)02:11
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lcuk...i feel like a bacon buttie02:12
ShadowJKI wish nokia didn't ever pre-announce or leak any models02:12
ShadowJKit's so damn annoying02:12
lcukme stopped waiting a long time ago02:12
luke-jrShadowJK: actually, it helps me in my argument a little02:12
luke-jrsince they haven't announced anything02:13
luke-jrI can insist on calling N810 their *current platform*02:13
* GeneralAntilles yawns tiredly.02:13
luke-jrand complain of their poor support for it02:13
ShadowJKOh I mean for picking a new phone02:13
ShadowJKI think GeneralAntilles can testify, that the situation over on the symbian side isn't that great either ;)02:13
luke-jrwho needs a new phone?02:13
luke-jrmy phone from 2004 works just fine02:14
ShadowJKor anyone who's used and tried to develop both symbian and maemo02:14
ShadowJKluke-jr, I need more ram in mine :-(02:14
GeneralAntillesSymbian is the suck.02:14
luke-jrShadowJK: why?02:14
GeneralAntillesThe core phone functionality is OK, but my free Samsung featurephone was OK at that.02:14
luke-jrI don't think i've even used half the addressbook space in min02:14
Corsacdepends on if you need a phone to phone or if you need a pda, an internet access or whatever02:14
lcukluke-jr, thats a lot of sense in that - and you cannot blanket say better faster more tech will win the day: look at ps3 vs wii02:14
luke-jrCorsac: then it's not a phone :p02:14
lcukon speca slone the wii should be dead in the water02:14
Corsacmy point02:14
luke-jrspecs alone*02:15
Corsacthe only thing I hate on my phone is the ridiculous limit on sms numbers02:15
ShadowJKluke-jr, because when I run out of RAM, symbian picks to kill the program that would annoy me the most if died02:15
GeneralAntilleslcuk, game consoles are a weak comparison.02:15
lardmanlcuk: I bet the ps3 is better for architects, amongst others02:15
luke-jrmy phone doesn't even support SMS crap02:15
lcukstill got a curly wire?02:15
GeneralAntillesThe Wii's specs don't hinder you from doing things as a consumer.02:15
GeneralAntillesWhereas a slow tablet will hinder you from browsing some Flash sites.02:15
luke-jrlcuk: no, the antenna broke a long time ago02:15
lcukbut a fast tabnlet isnt much better - the iphone cant browse flash02:16
GeneralAntillesEither way, the Wii still has a ton of power nobody's tapped into yet.02:16
lcuk(or can it now)02:16
GeneralAntilleslcuk, the iPhone really isn't much faster.02:16
Corsacflash sucks anyway02:16
lardmanthat's generally considered a blessing!02:16
lcukbut its had all the rendering time taken off from the cpu02:16
lcukthats our biggest bottleneck02:16
lcukthis 810 is fuckinhg quick! :)02:16
LiraNunaimagine it with HW accel02:17
ShadowJKIt's not like much of the rendering done by QT or GTK can be accelerated anyway, they mostly just push pixmaps...02:17
luke-jrmy N810 has been trying to get a lock for 1½ hrs -.-02:17
lcukbbl anyway02:18
ShadowJKIt's impossible indoors unless you put it in a window that faces south ;)02:18
luke-jrShadowJK: Maemo does it indoors in a matter of seconds02:18
luke-jrthe problem is stupid Nokia won't let us REALLY use the GPS02:18
lardmanno that's not true02:18
luke-jryes it is02:18
LiraNunahorray closed source02:19
* luke-jr glares at LiraNuna02:19
lardmanit would be nice if we could have access to the source to see if we can work out where the problem lies though02:19
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LiraNunaluke-jr, sarcasm.... do you speak it02:19
LiraNunaanyone tried ubuntu netbook remix on the N8x0?02:20
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luke-jrLiraNuna: afaik, b-man made it02:20
luke-jrfor the N8x002:20
LiraNunanot desktop ubuntu02:20
ShadowJKlardman, it's not something you can workaround in software except by AGPS, which reduces the amount of data that the receiver has to download from the satellites. It needs constant good signal from the satellite for quite some time, the bitrate is quite slow...02:20
GAN800LiraNuna, does a tablet sound like a netbook?02:20
LiraNunaGAN800, optimized for resolution02:20
GAN800LiraNuna, Clutter02:21
lardmanShadowJK: I was thinking more of whether corrupt nvd_data was causing a problem, and changing gpsdriver to avoid that02:21
ShadowJKWell luke is probably running it entirely without nvd_data?02:21
luke-jrShadowJK: probably02:21
lardmanShadowJK: I think there's a fundamental crapness to the chipset firmware and probably the snr of the signal due to the aerial, but we can't change either of those02:21
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luke-jras I mentioned, it works fine on Maemo02:22
Corsacfine, fine…02:22
Corsacit's usually quite slow02:23
ShadowJKlardman, I did reported SNR comparison between sirfstar and n810.. the n810 plot looked better actually02:23
ShadowJKactually it's pretty hard to make sense02:24
lardmanI mean the lower level snr, of the actual signal from the sat, not the decoded pos02:24
ShadowJKwhiter = bigger reported SNR02:24
lardmanah :D02:24
lardmanSNR has no fixed meaning in NMEA data, it can mean anything the manuf wants it to02:25
lardmanI had a reference for that somewhere, I'll have to dif it out for you02:25
ShadowJKthough look at how broken the lines are towards the righthand side of the plot for the righthand receiver02:25
LiraNunawhat's the GPS chip on the N8x0 again?02:25
lardmanTi 5300 iirc02:25
LiraNunanot SiRFstar III02:26
ShadowJKif you want a sirfstar you buy one :)02:26
LiraNunaI'm just inquiring ...02:26
ShadowJKin maemo the GPS performance can be shockingly good sometimes02:27
ShadowJKlast weekend I clocked 7 seconds to first fix after a week of not using the GPS02:27
lardmanoh, look at the time, bed time for me02:27
lardmannight all02:27
Corsacwell, if you were at the same place?02:27
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ShadowJKThe AGPS data was up to date, yes02:28
ShadowJKIf you turn off the GPS and drive hundreds of kilometres, you need to give the agps a new hint if you want it to be fast...02:28
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Corsacusually the user doesn't care how it works, it just wants it to work02:29
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ShadowJKI call 7 seconds "just works" :)02:30
kfxI don't like those users much02:30
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ShadowJKand grr at nokia once again... Just when I was thinking "ooooh, E75 will soon be available (for real), it's the most decent looking alternative right now", and then then they have to leak out information about an upcoming new phone that's kinda like E75 but adds media player hardware keys on the case... now I want that one instead, grrr.02:31
CorsacShadowJK: well, if you don't move, sure, but a gps isn't really often used without moving, even when off02:31
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ShadowJK(and have to wait until July...August until it's available, by which time Nokia has probably another model that will soon be available which is more attractive)02:32
ShadowJKah well, it's great for my wallet, I'll never get around to it this way :)02:32
luke-jrCorsac: generally, I have GPS running whenever I'm moving02:32
ShadowJKI'd think you would have the GPS on when moving02:32
ShadowJKthat's what I do..02:32
ShadowJKEspecially if I would move far enough that it would be making a difference for the AGPS, because then I'd be far away from roads I know..02:33
CorsacShadowJK: not always, and there _definitely_ is a problem, a lot of people are annoyed by gps slowness (not only on n810). Some devices works better than other, thoug, and n810 is not in the list, from what I can see02:33
Corsacand no, you don't leave gps always on because it'll suck you battery at quick rate02:34
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Corsacso you switch it on only when needed, and quite often it's far from the the last place02:34
ShadowJKah I just keep it on all day02:35
ShadowJKspeaking of day... it no longer is :) goodnight!02:35
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ShadowJKgoing to germany in august, will at some point check how long it takes for gps to find itself after the flight :)02:36
Corsackeep it switched on in the flight, it's cool to see where you are on your own personal IFE02:37
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CorsacI did that when I went to mexico02:37
Corsac(you're not really allowed to keep it on during take off and landing)02:37
luke-jrCorsac: GPS fix takes way too long to do anything but have it active 24/702:40
GAN800Some airlines don't let you use them at all despite the fact that GPS only receives.02:41
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chxGAN800: and how do they stop? i mean, its just an electronic device which are ok to use past takeoff02:42
chxGAN800: how do they know you are using a GPS??02:43
GAN800chx, well, if one of the crew notices they'll ask you to turn it of02:43
luke-jrso ignore them02:43
luke-jrand don't get noticed02:43
GAN800But that's not the point, just that it's policy.02:43
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GAN800Yeah, not the point.02:44
GAN800ignoring them sounds like fucking anti-social behavior.02:44
luke-jrthe only reason I turn my cell off is otherwise it drains power02:44
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luke-jrthere's so much radio in the air already, our trivial devices don't have any effect02:45
GAN800luke-jr is the type of prick that'd bring a radio jammer on a plane. . . .02:45
luke-jrjust makes people "feel safer"02:45
GAN800You don't know that.02:45
luke-jrGAN800: I know that if it was REALLY a problem, they'd confiscate the devices02:45
luke-jror else they're being utterly negligent02:45
GAN800Can you tell me the frequencies every device on an aircraft operates on?02:45
GAN800or guarantee that no device could possibly step on them?02:46
luke-jrGAN800: if it could cause trouble, why do they allow us to take it on the plane?02:46
luke-jrand risk us breaking rules?02:46
ShadowJKthey even ask you to switch off mp3 players..02:46
luke-jrShadowJK: that might actually make sense02:47
luke-jrMP3 players could have a hard drive that could be damaged02:47
ShadowJK... by the airport xrays :)02:47
sp3000and geese02:48
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ShadowJKa laptop puts out loads of radio too, even with intentional radios off02:48
Proteousmine only plays Frank Sinatra :/02:49
ShadowJKand on my n800 the touchscreen io lines crossover to headphone output, causing interference02:49
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luke-jrbesides, doesn't the FCC require anything radio to both be OK with interference and not cause interference?02:50
luke-jrI would think it stupid for a plane to use intentionally unlicensed bands for anything important02:50
ShadowJKuh, they dont02:50
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ShadowJKand that's not the conceern02:51
ShadowJKgsm is actually particulary vicious, to the point you can even audibly hear it in many things02:52
ShadowJKmy watch could be dangerous :)02:53
Proteouswell, it induces current into preamp circuits and such causing audiable noises to come out the speakers02:53
Proteousthe electronics in airplanes should be shielded against that stuff02:54
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ShadowJKthe current plan seems to be to have picocells inside planes, so phones just have to whisper02:55
Proteouswho wants to sit next to someone talking on thier cell phone for a 12 hour flight02:55
ProteousI would kill myself, or them02:55
LiraNunahow well does AGPS works?02:56
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luke-jrProteous: cells don't work02:56
Proteousdepends on the device02:56
LiraNunaProteous, N810WE02:56
ShadowJKwatch dangerous.. because it has a boost converter for the backlight, a chip switching poweer into an inductor... it's a minitransmitter really :)02:56
luke-jrLiraNuna: generally pretty good02:56
LiraNunaactual "fix in seconds" or?02:57
luke-jrProteous: planes travel too fast for cell phones to communicate w/ cell towers02:57
ShadowJKand makes a faint audible noise too :)02:57
Proteousthe n810 takes between 1 and 5 minutes to get a fix depending on visability of sats02:58
ShadowJKluke: ryanair was going to install cellphone basestation inside airplane.02:58
Proteoussometimes never if you are inside and can't see any Sats02:58
luke-jrProteous: I'm at 2 hours waiting..02:58
Proteousmake a sammich02:59
luke-jrit just got a fix finally02:59
luke-jrwhat's your altitude02:59
luke-jrmine is 108002:59
ShadowJKyou'll have to wwait for better weather :)02:59
ShadowJKall my nokia chargers scream now :( I wonder if they always did that, and I only started noticing after only sleeping with one computer running... or if they start screaming/whining due to old age03:01
luke-jrwhich sats can you see?03:01
luke-jrI can see23, 3, 19, 25, 13, 10, 6, 7, 8, and 1603:01
ShadowJKim indoors, id see none03:02
luke-jrI'm indoors too03:02
ShadowJKnot even sirfstar sees03:02
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ShadowJKmetal roof :)03:03
luke-jrI have a whole apartment above me :p03:03
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LiraNunathat's weird, I got a map installed in internal sd but 'maps' will not find it03:05
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fauxmightShadowJK: I have two chargers. one screams and one does not. The screamer has a damaged cord and if I change its position, it will occasionally stop screaming. I'm sure it will fry me in my house one day, but it charges whether it screams or not.03:29
fauxmightI have two n810s in use else I wouldn't use the second charger.03:29
GAN8001fauxmight, Amazon has the charger for about $2 a piece.03:31
Proteousthe screaming is just some high frequency vibration probably from one of the tiny transformers or ICs in the charger03:33
Proteoususualy isn't something to worry about03:33
Proteousyou can open it up and spread some hot glue around the part that is causing it if you want...03:34
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Proteousor just get a new one for $203:34
Proteoushowdy Infekta03:34
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Infektahey im curious about something... is there a way to change the internal MMC03:35
Proteouson an N810?03:35
Proteousno, it's soldered in03:35
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Proteouswell, with the right tools you might be able to do it03:35
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Proteousno guarenttee it would work03:36
Infektayeah i do have soldering tools03:36
Infektai dont think i will find a solderable SD card anywhere03:36
Infektao well03:36
lcukinside a normal sd card?03:36
lcukunsolder that one ;)03:36
Proteousyou would need tools to do really fine chip replacement03:36
Proteousdifferent stuff then just a soldering iron03:37
lcukhammer and chisel not fine enough?03:37
Proteousprobably not03:37
* lcuk used to work on circuit repair03:37
ProteousI just worked on bigger stuff, use to do stereo repair03:37
Proteousregular soldering iron worked fine03:37
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lcukyeah they would come out of the smt machine after the bath and layout03:38
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lcukbut it wasnt unheard of to get the wick out scoop up everything and replace half the board03:39
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Proteousthe smallest stuff I would do is surface mount resistors and caps03:39
Proteousno ICs03:39
Proteouswell, not really small ones anyway03:40
lcukeasier to remove than to replace lol03:40
Proteousfix peoples botched PS2 mods03:40
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lcukmost common soldering i bother with nowadays is mouse button replacement03:40
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Proteousthat's pretty extreme03:41
Proteousconsidering a new mouse is $5.0003:41
lcuknot relaly, i like my mouse and i cant find em anywhere brick n mortor lol03:41
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* lcuk 's mouse has balls03:42
Proteouslast soldering I did was solder together my arcade control panel03:42
lcuka ball :|03:42
Proteousfuckin ball mice03:42
Proteouswhat a joke03:42
lcukworks and is the right weight :)03:43
Infektaif all else fails03:43
Infektause a shotgun03:43
lcukand laser mice have a nasty habit of shooting off west when i pick em up and wiggle em03:43
Infektacoz they got a vasectomy at birth03:44
lcuk"omg omg the floor under me moved, quick send the pointer to africa03:44
lcukwhereas a ball mouse merely twitches :)03:44
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chxI use an Evoulent Vertical Mouse03:58
chxdefinitely not the five bucks category03:58
chxbut soooooo comfy03:58
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GAN800lcuk, you need a mousepad and a mouse that doesn't suck04:09
GAN800The MX518 is really nice.04:09
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GAN800Merging these tablet school articles is going to be a pain.04:12
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GAN800lol . . . American Idol. Rod Stewart got old.05:04
Bobbehis face looks like a broken mirror or something05:05
Bobbewrinkles held still with botox or sth05:05
Macerchernobyl set off alarms in sweden :)05:20
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cyrus_mcwhich package provides tools like mkfs.ext2, ext3 for maemo (I have an n810)06:58
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Bobbeit's in extras-devel07:08
Bobbecyrus_mc, u there?07:10
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cyrus_mcok..I need ot add that repos07:12
cyrus_mcany idea where I get it or the details to add to the repos file07:12
Bobbethere will be a link like 'click this .install to add the repo' or sth similar07:15
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cyrus_mcBobbe - i enabled that repos but e2fsprogs is still not available07:35
cyrus_mchmm.had to reboot and then it was availble07:37
cyrus_mcstrange..never had to do that before when adding a repo07:37
Maceri want to make a gaming box in that case07:37
Macerthat thing is awesome07:38
Maceri should start pricing everything07:38
luke-jrFacebook: "Matthew is killing the environment, one clorox spill at a time."07:38
Macerphenom IIs are still using am+ right?07:39
Maceror do they use am3?07:39
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ShadowJKsupposedly backwards compatible07:40
luke-jrMacer: most CPUs come in more than one socket07:40
luke-jrat least for AMD07:40
ShadowJK(if you can find bios upgrade for your old mobo))07:41
ShadowJKi've almost managed to squeeze 800 mAh out of this n800 battery now :) but it's on the edge of triggering the low alert...07:43
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Macerthat is not bad for that kind of processor07:51
Macera comparable i7 costs twice as much07:54
luke-jrstupid N81007:54
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ShadowJKcomparable? no i7 is comparable, they don't go that low07:55
Macerthere is a 2.91GHz i707:56
Macerbut.. they sell Phenom IIs that are X3?07:56
ShadowJKyeah but 2.91GHz i7 has performance of a 4.5GHz phenomII, or something like that...07:57
Maceroh cmon :) you are exagerating07:58
luke-jrMacer: not sure he is07:59
luke-jrit's quite possible07:59
luke-jrMacer: 3-core systems are quad-core, but with a dud core disabled07:59
ShadowJKcorr2quad is better comparison, and there the performance for a 225 dollar non-s c2q is similar to that phenomII07:59
luke-jrmy fastest system is a single-core (dual core didn't exist back then) Athlon64 3200+08:00
Macerluke-jr: i know but i figured they fixed their fabrication08:01
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Macerand stopped releasing those08:01
Macerthey seriously need to08:01
luke-jrMacer: uh, defects will always exist08:01
luke-jralways have, always will08:01
ShadowJKthere is no 'fix'08:01
luke-jrit's not cost efficient to "fix" it to be perfect08:02
luke-jrjust disable a core and sell it for a bit less08:02
Macerwell... usually defect is you have to sell it at a lower clock speed08:02
Macernot disable an entire core :)08:02
luke-jrin quad-core systems, all 4 cores need to be the same speed :p08:02
luke-jrso one lower spec would pull the other 3 down08:03
Maceri know08:03
luke-jrsometimes it makes better sense to just forego the fourth08:03
Maceri think with the amds though.. the actual core was faulty08:03
Macerit is like selling a new car with a donut for a 4th tire08:03
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ShadowJKsometimes they dont run correct at any acceptable speeds at acceptable voltages08:04
* RST38x moos08:04
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Macerthen they should recycle them and save their company from the utter destruction it caused08:04
Macerinstead of being stuck in 2nd rate status08:05
ShadowJKthere's even X2 phenomII, but I think they call them something different :)08:05
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luke-jrMacer: some people would rather save money on 3-core than get a quad-core08:05
Macerhow did they find out the 4th core was broken?08:05
Macerdid they sell them and people noticed it wasn't working?08:05
RST38hluke: those people will all buy atoms now :)08:05
MacerRST38h: haha.. i agree :)08:06
ShadowJKuh, they test them all?08:06
Maceri see08:06
Macerand when they first released them. were they all X3s?08:06
Macerno offense. but amd should have sucked up the short term losses and shelved the X3s and released only good X4s at the time of its release08:07
Macernow they are forced to sell their flagship at an incredibly low price because there is a stigma about them that they make inferior products08:08
luke-jrMacer: the short term losses are infinite08:08
luke-jris there a stigma?08:08
Maceri think there is :)08:08
RST38hwhat stigma?08:08
luke-jrI think the people who understand a X3 is an X4 with a core disabled is few08:08
luke-jrand out of those who do understand it, most understand that it's just fine08:09
ShadowJKintel's bottleneck in meeting demand for atom was actually in testing.. they could fit shitloads of them on a disc but their testing pipeline was designed for fewer amount and yield of chips that they'd get with huge cpus like core208:09
luke-jrand besides, what will they buy instead?08:09
luke-jrIntel does the same thing08:09
Macerluke-jr: but intel never released a processor with a core turned off08:10
RST38htesting cores for certain clock frequencies and releasing "faulty" cores with lower frequency rating is a standard practice08:10
Maceramd released the fight club recall car :)08:10
Maceryes.. with lower freqs08:10
Maceramd released a cpu that it was boasting about for a long time08:10
ShadowJKyeah x3 are nice, you get 3 good cores at discount, they're likely to overclock much better than x4 :)08:10
Maceron how great its quad core performance was going to be08:10
luke-jrMacer: Intel releases core-disabled CPUs *all the time*08:10
RST38hselling chips that have non-working parts with different part number is also a standard practice08:10
luke-jrMacer: Just like AMD08:10
luke-jrwhat do you think the Core Trio is?08:11
RST38hThe best example is probably a bunch of 68EC030 chips that were 68030 with faulty MMU08:11
Macerluke-jr: but it didn't release that information :) . i think broken when i think X308:11
RST38hwhat is core trio?08:11
RST38hplease, do tell me08:12
luke-jrMacer: that's a problem isolated to yourself08:12
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Macerluke-jr: well.. i would agree with you if amd wasn't selling their top line cpus at crackhead prices to play catch up to intel08:12
ShadowJKinteo releases cpus with parts of cache disabled... cache takes up huge amount of die, so there's good chance defects will occur there08:12
Macerand i am sure the amd stock took a hit when it was discovered there was a MAJOR flaw in their destign that caused huge amounts of processors to come out as X3s instead of the quad core it was supposed to be marketed as08:13
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Macerlet me check :)08:13
ian_at_synthhey, any savvy maemo mapper users/devs in here? my copy of MM just stopped being able to download Gstreet or Gsat maps for some reason, and i'm not sure how to fix it08:13
Macerlet's see if i can find out when amd released the phenom and people discovered they were X3s instead of what they said it was supposed to be08:15
ShadowJKuh, intel most likely has same rate of defects per die area as amd, amd just sells more of the good stuff instead of dumping into landfill08:15
RST38hAMD marketed Phenom as x3 from the beginning08:15
RST38hSo, folks, I am not sure what you are arguing about08:15
ShadowJKyep, they promised x3 and x2 parts in addition to x4 parts long before the launch08:16
luke-jrRST38h: I guess someone made it up08:17
MacerRST38h: uhm.08:17
luke-jrRST38h: see the disclaimer above that my fastest CPU is single-core08:17
Macerthe phenom was supposed to be a quad core cpu from teh beginning08:17
Macernot an x308:17
RST38hluke: Right.08:18
ian_at_synthdoes maemo mapper store preferences anywhere other than the Maps directory and the /home/user/.maemo-mapper dir? i've tried deleting those directories and removing/reinstalling maemo mapper, but it still fails to download Gstreet or Gsat maps. all other map repos work...08:18
Macerbefore it was released amd was saying they were supposed to be quad core cpus... the only reason they released them as x3 was because there was a flaw08:18
luke-jrsomeone has a 40+ core CPU IIRC08:18
luke-jrian_at_synth: no doubt Google broke those by changing things08:19
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ian_at_synthi just spoke to my brother, and he said he was able to download from them still...08:20
RST38hMacer: whatever AMD was saying before relase does not matter08:20
Macertell that to politicians08:20
luke-jrpretty sure the politicians all know that XD08:21
ShadowJKamd might actually be selling cpus with 4 working cores as x3, people who've bought x3 and re-enabled the fourth core haven't been able to find anything wrong with the fourth :)08:21
luke-jryou can't reenable it08:22
luke-jrthe core is laser-cut off08:22
ShadowJKthe demand for x3 was probably higher than amd thought it would be, or they get less dies with too broken cores now08:22
MacerIn order to prove that its soon-to-be-released Phenom processor isn.t broken...08:22
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RST38hShadow: When AMD says "core does not work" it may not actually mean that the core does not work at all08:23
RST38hShadow: All it means is that one of 10000+ tests failed on this core at the clock frequency they rated that chip at08:24
pupnikthe wlan icon should show signal strength08:24
RST38hSo, you can reenable and use it, but AMD will not guarantee that it won't screw you up in some really weird way08:24
pupnikmorning rst08:24
RST38hehlo pupnik08:24
pupnikmy t42p died :(08:25
* pupnik cries08:25
pupnikn810 lives tho08:25
ShadowJKluke-jr: for example08:26
MacerRST38h: i am telling you. the fact remains that after the phenom was released it was described as a broken cpu due to the X3 method amd used :) i am trying to track their stock in relation08:26
Macerfrom july it had taken 7 quarterly losses08:27
Macerof 200808:27
ShadowJKbut they announced x3 parts well before the release...08:27
Macerthe actual economic mainsteram collapse occured around aug08:27
MacerShadowJK: and that is when their stock started taking hits08:28
Macerbecause the world viewed them flaunting how they were beating intel and releasing a quad core cpu ...08:28
Macerthen didn't deliver and released what most considered a broken cpu with the X308:29
Macerif you look at a 3 or 5 year graph of their stock you will see it as they are beating intel in the cpu race08:29
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Macerit spikes .. then dives08:29
Macerafter the release of broken phenoms08:29
pupnikvgba still rules08:29
Macermaking amd non-profitable because the world shifted to intel for "quality" cpus :)08:30
Maceri am not saying that a phenom is a bad cpu. i think it is a good one. but they are forced to sell it at absolutely lowest pricing to push it out08:30
Macerwhile intel is reaping in a price tag of $400+ for theirs08:30
pupnikamd must survive08:30
RST38hor intel gets sued as a monopoly :)08:30
RST38hso, yes, amd should survive :)08:31
ShadowJKwell no, it's a bad cpu, but x3 and x2 are irrelevant in that context :p08:31
Macerwell... amd is in a freefall now and it all started when they finally started to beat intel in the cpu race08:31
Macerand released X3s and the market viewed them as broken08:31
pupnikmaybe ati will save amd08:31
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Macersince they were boasting a "better than intel quad core cpu"08:32
Macerand did not deliver08:32
RST38hcan't beat intel in x86 cpu race08:32
Macerlike the hare that took a nap08:32
MacerRST38h: they could have :) they screwed up08:32
RST38hamd should have known08:32
pupnikmaybe they can innovate in power saving08:32
RST38hMacer: Intel simply learned a lesson and caught up, that's all08:32
RST38hpupnik: Transmeta and later VIA tried that08:33
Maceri honestly believe if they kept the X3s under wraps and released the X4s for a while.. then said "we have these somewhat defective cpus but they work and we will sell them cheap"08:33
RST38hBut the fact is that users do not care about power in desktops08:33
johnxintel fell asleep at the wheel for years, and came back out of nowhere08:33
ShadowJKi don't think x3 makes a difference, with phenomII X4 amd said they'd catch up with intel, but they're still barely able to perform like low-end intel c2q, and intel i7 is far ahead...08:33
Macerthey should have never released the X3s in the beginning08:33
pupnikin eu they will begin to rst08:33
johnxthat's the power of having a huge amount of money to blow on R&D08:33
Macerthe market would have accepted it if they eased into it08:34
Macerbut releasing the X3s and saying the word "problem" was AMDs biggest mistake08:34
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RST38hpupnik: only if artifically made to care08:35
RST38hpupnik: like by some law08:35
RST38hanyways, off to work08:36
luke-jrMacer: AMD didn't say "problem" :p08:36
ShadowJKthey never did say problem. journalists said it, along with praising amd for being clever and not dumping those cpus in landfills like intel does08:36
ShadowJKenthusiasts and journalists actually like the advantages x3 and x2 gives, so I have a hard time seeing it as a mistake...08:38
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ShadowJKyou could just as well say intel q9550 ayou could just as well say intel q9550 are broken and that intel should bin them instead of charging extra for the fixed q9550s :)08:41
MacerAMD currently has no answer for Intel's upcoming SSE4 instructions, which may widen the performance gap further in selected applications. On the other hand, unlike Intel's quad-core parts, which are basically two dual-core CPUs using a shared bus interface, Phenom has four distinct cores, which should also offer benefits.08:43
Macerwashington post 200708:43
* Macer points at november 200708:44
MacerHe also said the scarcity of review units was due to the complexity of a rollout that also involves the new 790FX Spider chip set and ATI 3800 series graphics cards, not because of any problem fabricating the new chips08:46
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Macernow mind you they had 1 month from a rollout.. and they are telling the washington post their "QUAD CORE" cpu is being released.08:46
luke-jrare you guys STILL going on about the core thing?08:48
Macerno. but i am reading about it08:49
luke-jrhow hard is it to just PICK ONE AND BUY08:49
luke-jryou're spending more time on it than the price difference is worth08:49
Macerer.. i'm not :)08:49
Maceri already bought the phenom II08:49
Myrttiluke-jr: is it spent from your pocket or your time?08:50
Macerthe discussion was really on the fact that amd released a faulty processor and sold it off and that it was seen as being broken08:50
luke-jrMyrtti: well, it keeps making the channel red08:51
Macerthat's wired magazine's interview with intel's cto08:51
ProteousI'm happy with my Phenom x408:51
Macer:) at the bottom he talks about amd08:51
MacerSo, yes, (AMD has) a four-core product. I'm sure when they looked at their yield losses, they said, "Wow, we can offer a three-core version of this if one of those cores are dead or slow or whatever it turns out to be."08:52
ShadowJKnow that's an unbiased person to ask :)08:52
Macerno.. it is hard to tell if he is defending them or helping them08:52
Macerat the very bottom where he talks about amd's tri cores08:52
ShadowJKwell intel too sells with various combinations of broken cache08:53
Maceramd said they released them because there was a small market for quad cores haha08:53
MacerShadowJK: but it didn't disable the core because the cache was broken08:53
ShadowJKwhile amd sells also the ones with working cache but a broken core08:53
MacerRattner: I wouldn't make that much of it. This is a yield-improvement technique, plain and simple. IBM and Sony with their Cell processor -- they have eight (processors) on that that chip, and they said, well seven is the actually the number and one is a spare, or one is dead08:54
ShadowJKbecause both do the broken cache thing nobody thinks about it anymore08:54
Macerlook at that.. bitchslapped 3 competitors with one statement08:54
Macerthat guy is my hero :)08:54
Macerand even makes it look like he is being nice when really he is saying "our shit is less broken than theirs"08:55
ShadowJKhe isn't saying or implying that though :)08:55
Maceri don't know. it looks like he picked his words very carefully for that one08:56
Macerwhere he doesn't want to come off as arrogant but still wants to bitchslap the other guys08:56
Maceri mean if you read into it... he is saying "sure.. sometimes things aren't perfect.. but ibm and sony are selling dead cell processors and amd is releasing something that can't compete against us since it's also broken"08:57
ShadowJKhe's probably jelous intel didn't think of it first :) but that might also be because intel didn't have any genuine 4core cpus08:57
Macerlol.. i suppose not.. but still he was probably clicking his heels after that interview08:58
Macerhe just got put into the #2 spot of Macer's hero list... bill gates is still #108:58
ShadowJKthey glue together 2 dual cores, so that gives them higher yields at cost of performance, but they're so far ahead it doesnt matter if they're 50 or 55 percent faster :)08:59
Maceryeah i suppose they aren't "spider" tech.. but they were doing pretty well with that method09:00
Macerlike i said. i think amd produces some awesome processors .. but that X3... it just left a bad taste09:00
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johnxah the aeshetics of choosing a CPU :)09:01
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ProteousI go by price mostly...09:02
johnxsame here. usually I end up buying the mobo+cpu special of the week when it looks good enough09:02
johnxbut I might not upgrade my desktop anymore at this rate09:02
Proteouswhy doesn't anyone make true vertical LCDs09:03
Macerever buy an X3? :)09:03
ProteousI have an X409:03
Macerwhy not the X3?09:03
Proteousalmost got an X3 but newegg had a crazy deal on the X4 that I got09:03
johnxMacer, I'll wait until there is a fry's or newegg special on an x3+mobo :)09:03
Proteousended up being cheaper09:03
ShadowJKtheinquirer has high praize for x3 saying it's the most exciting thing for enthusiasts in many years :)09:03
Macerisn't that a tabloid?09:04
Proteousthat's enquierer09:04
Proteousor whatever09:04
Macerah .. :) i see09:04
Proteousbut yeah, inquirer almost is09:04
MacerProteous: haha09:04
Maceris everything ok in the world of nokia?09:05
ShadowJKnow nvidia on the other hand has a real defect issue on hand09:05
Proteousno, my n97 hasn't arrived yet09:05
ProteousI have a friend who works at Nvidia09:05
Macerdoes the n97 support tmob?09:05
Proteousnothing does except special Tmobile phones09:05
ljpMacer: just peachy09:05
MacerProteous: that sucks... i want an n9x that supports tmob already09:06
ShadowJKalmost all their chips from the last few years are dying (physically)09:06
Proteousthey use the standard 1900 and 2100 freq but in a different way09:06
Maceri thought they used 170009:06
Proteousnot compatable with your normal 3g phones that work on ATT09:06
Proteouswho can remember numbers09:06
ProteousI'd have to look it up to double check09:06
Macerworks with their edge :-\09:06
Proteousbut it still won't work :P09:06
Macerbut that's just not cutting it09:07
Proteousworks with edge09:07
Maceri take my n95 when i don't need to do net stuff.. like taking my son to the park09:07
Proteousit's sad, tmobile has better data plans09:07
Macerit takes awesome photos and video09:07
* Proteous cries09:07
Maceryeah they sure do09:07
Maceri *HATE* att :)09:07
Macerif i am ever in my lifetime in a position to buy them out and sell them at a loss i would do it09:07
Proteousand tmobile is putting up a new tower 1000 feet from my house...09:08
Maceryou might as well run a cat6 cable to it09:08
Maceri like my G1.. android isn't too bad.. but man i LOVE my n95 and wish it woudl work with tmob's 3G09:09
Proteousthere's always the palm preeeeeeee09:09
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Maceri wouldn't buy a thing that has Web in its OS name :)09:09
ProteousI almost got a G1 but I wanted a higher rez screen09:10
Macerthe gigabyte n810 wannabe seemed nice tho09:10
Proteousand something with a battery that lasts more then 4 hours09:10
MacerProteous: yeah. it's pretty low09:10
MacerProteous: you can get an extended battery for it09:10
ProteousI was mostly joking about the battery part09:10
Macerthey have a 2600mah for $50 from some company that lasts like 48 hours09:10
Macerbut it bulks up your phone :)09:10
ProteousI bet09:10
Proteousyou could make one that fits in a special belt that is connected to the phone by a cord09:11
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Macerbut i seriously love my n95 .. i want 3G on it with tmob :(09:11
Proteousyou don't say09:11
Macerhave you used an n97?09:11
Proteousno querty for ssh == no good09:11
Maceryeah that does kind of suck09:12
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Macerbut there's always an su9w bt keyboard ;)09:12
Proteoushard to use while walking down the street09:12
ShadowJKe70 is the best for ssh :)09:12
Maceri don't ssh while walking down teh street ;)09:12
Proteousif you want to see 4 letters at at time sure09:12
Maceri wanted the n95 more for the video capabilities than anything09:12
Proteousthen you are not l337 Macer09:13
Macerwell.. and the 3G :)09:13
ProteousI use ssh for my IM and email09:13
Macerand the cam09:13
Proteousso it's important09:13
Maceryou use it for IM? :) why not just use an app on the phone?09:13
Macerfor both actually09:13
Proteousbecause I can have a persistant IM/irc session that runs on a server that I can connect to from wherever I can get a ssh session, which is anywhere09:14
Proteousit's very usefull09:14
Macerspeaking of n95.. i need to use it tomorrow so i should swap the sim out09:14
locutusits a bummer that the n810 has no alt key :-/09:15
Macertoday is thurs? wtf?09:15
locutusmakes Emacs unusable for me09:15
Proteousmakes irssi more dificult to use as well09:15
Proteousalthough you can haxor the keyboard to add one I belive09:16
locutusalso, no pipe09:16
Proteousnever tried myself09:16
ShadowJKnone of them have esc/alt :(09:16
ShadowJKbut i guess you have esc in xterm on the touchscreen of n810 and pipe is addable there09:17
Macerhm. i haven't gotten paid yet. wtf09:17
* Macer will give them til 209:17
Maceri'm on sick leave so my pay has gotten strange09:17
Proteousthen you will put strychnine in the guacamole09:18
ShadowJKi found a cheap bt keyboard, but I find i only use it occasionally, even with n80009:18
Proteousa BT keyboard sorta defeats the purpouse of having a tablet for me09:19
ShadowJKi discovered I have insufficient number of hands for holding both keyboard and device :)09:19
MacerProteous: i couldn't stand pecking at my n800 anymore09:19
Proteoussome sort of belt mounted stand09:19
Proteousthen you could ssh while walking down the street09:19
Macerespecially after i got a g1 and used the qwerty for a while09:20
Proteousand with a keyboard mounted to your crotch you'd be soooo l33709:20
MacerProteous: i always figured that someone would make pressure gloves09:20
ProteousI had a 770, wasn't too fond of the OSK09:20
Macerwhere you walk down the street typing with your hands09:20
ShadowJKoddly my n810 is on the desk and im using n800... the touchscreen on it annoys me less09:20
Macerand have your phone hooked up into glasses that give you a hud09:20
ProteousI also wasn't too fond of the WSOD09:21
Macerwhy hasn't anybody made hud glasses yet?09:21
Macerthey can't be that hard to make09:21
ShadowJKthere are hud glasses09:21
Macerare there ??09:21
Proteousbecause it's not easy, and there isn't much of a market for it, and they give you a nasty headache09:21
MacerShadowJK: are they huge?09:21
ShadowJKi've seen them mentioned in context of beagleboard09:21
Macerlike 5" thick or something?09:22
Proteousheh, yes09:22
Macerdamn :)09:22
Macersomeone needs to make them the size of normal glasses09:22
ShadowJKa bit thicker than sunglasses it looked like on the photos09:22
* Macer pictures having a phone in his glasses09:22
Maceroakley makes mp3 glasses.. why not hud? cmon oakley!09:22
Proteousfrom yesterday:
MacerI have been awaiting a lightweight, head-mounted display that actually has decent resolution and doesn't look like a brick tied to your face09:23
ShadowJKthey're all low res :(09:24
johnxhmm, there was one that didn't look bad to me09:24
Macerthose wrap 920s are pretty awesome09:25
johnxyou looked at it by glancing down09:25
ShadowJKfor tv and video, i guess09:25
MacerComing Fall of 200909:25
Macerhe is right though. the res is too low09:25
Macerbut those might be awesome for a phone. how do they get the video?09:25
johnxdepends on what you want to use it for09:25
ShadowJKcomposite probably09:26
johnxa heads up gps, weather/time, incoming mail/msg/call kind of thing wouldn't be bad09:26
Macerjohnx: no it wouldn't09:26
Macerwonder how much those will cost09:27
Maceri want some :)09:27
johnx320x240 for some arrows and text with lots of antialiasing09:27
ShadowJKwhat can you get out of the video out on highend nokias, svideo and composite?09:27
Macer640x480 is kind of crappy but09:27
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MacerShadowJK: i have never tried it09:27
ShadowJKlots of aliasing you mean? :)09:27
johnx <- these look a lot goofier on him then I pictured they would :/09:27
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Maceryeah they do09:28
johnxheh, well the aliasing is free, the antialiasing is user provided ;P09:28
Macerthe wrap looks a lot more realistic09:28
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johnxhe might just be a goofy looking guy though :D09:28
johnxthe thing is I want a glance down interface, not something covering my whole field of vision09:29
ShadowJKand they must be indistinguishable from normal glasses so your boss doesn't realize you're watching simpsons09:32
johnxstill, this stuff is a lot closer than it was 10 years ago :D09:33
pupniktaking too long.   govt  thieving capital.  not enough tech investment09:34
johnxI remember looking at it in 1999/2000 and it cost more than I paid for my current car ...09:34
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JaffaMorning, all11:06
sanjay6976morning11:06 command not found11:07
Stskeepsmorning jaffaf11:07
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sanjay6976i am getting an error command not found11:08
sanjay6976in DIABLO_ARMEL while giving start11:08
MacerThe shift supervisor then deceived the radiation control supervisor and entered the room of the incident and possibly attempted to pour the solution down a floor drain, causing a large nuclear reaction that irradiated the shift supervisor with a fatal dose of radiation. The shift supervisor's actions are the subject of a Darwin Award.[11]11:09
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MacerCherenkov radiation is produced by charged particles which are travelling through a dielectric substance at a speed greater than the speed of light in that medium.11:25
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lcuk2what dates are the summit on again11:42
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Stskeepsoctober, start11:43
Stskeepsi think11:43
yergaof october I mean11:44
lcuk2got it \o thx11:45
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pupnikhi lardster13:12
* pupnik passes out lard to all13:12
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* lardman gets the bacon frying13:20
lardmanpupnik: you're first in line don't worry13:20
lcukonly because you have bacon fat introvenously13:21
robtaylormmm. introveinous bacon13:28
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lardmanmight have to be lardons so they can travel through the valves13:34
lardmansmall lardons at that13:34
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VDVsxhow should we test the application suggested here: ?13:45
VDVsxI don't have the device :P13:45
lcukdidnt someone have a usb one plugged in?   and isnt craves1 working on some addin for it13:46
lcukdoes the wiimote driver work, or can it be jimmied to supply values on that same /sys/class branch?13:47
VDVsxwell, it's using the future d-bus accelerometer interface, so I think is fremantle specific13:48
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lcukok, but if we could hackup the wiimote stack to fake it but using the same location and values as the expected future stuff then it would work wouldnt it?13:49
lcuki remember looking at wiimote stuff a couple of years ago and the params that the wiki page says looks pretty similar to all that stuff13:50
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VDVsxif we can plug some kinda of acceleromter to the SDK, we probably can test this feature, or probably not, letme check :P13:50
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lcukwhat does i2c-adapter mean13:51
lcukcos google is giving me results from lots of places13:51
lcuknot accel specific13:51
VDVsxis a path13:51
lcuk"The I2C bus helps you monitor the health of your system"13:52
lcukso its a generic input device - for fans and temp and stuff as wlel13:52
VDVsxwhere normally are some kinda o hardware sensors, bluetooth, leds13:53
lcukopenmoko has accel :O13:53
VDVsxyes two13:53
VDVsxapparently the same model that the fremantle device will have13:54
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VDVsxanyway gonna ask on talk, if there is some magic way to test the stuff on that page or it is just for the luck ones with the device :P13:56
lcukVDVsx, do you still have your openmoko13:56
lcukand does it still work13:56
VDVsxlcuk, yes :P13:57
lcukhave you considered getting mer onto it and testing this yourself13:57
lcukdoes mer even work on it now, i know there was noises13:57
Macerwhich openmoko device do you have?13:59
pupnikok, flash is getting the boot13:59
Macera dash or something?13:59
VDVsxlcuk, appear that the d-bus api is closed yet, at least I don't found anything in the repos13:59
lcukthen go to the fs14:00
VDVsxMacer, nop GTA-02, neo freerunner14:00
Macerhow is the freerunner?14:01
StskeepsVDVsx: know of a decent firmware where gps and such works on the freerunner? :P14:01
* Macer stares at the debug boar14:02
VDVsxStskeeps, last time I used my device, everything worked, are you talking about the kernel image right ?14:02
Stskeepsnot sure14:03
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VDVsxMacer, have some problems, and a big lack of decent software :P14:03
Stskeepsand it being armv4t just makes it more difficult :P14:04
VDVsxStskeeps, you probably can used the FSO stack to test/debug the harware, is available in the debian repos14:06
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pupnikmytube needs sort-by-date14:07
lcuki thought tubes were sorted by date anyway14:07
lcukfirst in first out14:07
rm_youalright headed to WA, bbl :)14:08
rm_yousee yall from another state ^_^14:08
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VDVsxhumm, a maemo developer competition on the DK weekend, should be fun :P14:21
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lcukVDVsx, i keep pondering that14:29
lcukis there a page14:30
VDVsxlcuk, go for it, the prize is a nxxx :P14:30
VDVsx1 sec, I'm joking about the prize14:31
VDVsxat the end of the section14:32
lcuk:D nokia nxxx edition is endororsed by sasha grey14:32
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lcukheh, since its "some hacker competition"14:33
lcukshould i push for "coolest new microapp in liqbase" ;)14:34
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VDVsxlcuk, heheh14:36
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lcukjeremiah_hacking, i hope you dont have a facemask on14:50
lcukif you are hacking you dont wanna look like jason14:53
jeremiah_hackingI know what you did last summer!14:54
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oDudahello all !14:55
lcuk:O yeah, i wrote liqbase lol14:55
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lcukhello oDuda \o14:56
oDudasomebody knows about cards life using as virtual memory on NIT ?14:56
oDudahello lcuk ! hows ?14:56
lcukoDuda, obviously lots of writing to a card isnt good (its not good for hard disks either..)14:57
lcukbut the price of them is such that as long as you have backups i wouldnt worry14:57
oDudalcuk: sure... i worry on these cards during less than 1 one year...14:58
oDudalcuk: is that the case ?14:59
lcukoDuda, you should worry about all online media storage after 1 minute.  the lifespan of anything is not 100% certain14:59
lcukyou can break a new harddrive within minutes15:00
jeremiah_hackingI wish lcuk wasn't right, but he is.15:00
lcukor the same one could last for decades15:00
jeremiah_hackingbackups are key15:00
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oDudahahahaha this subject affects all the people....15:00
lcukjeremiah_hacking, fact of life.  if you assume failure from day one you are protected (without going overboard)15:01
* lcuk tries to be a defensive programmer :)15:01
oDudalcuk: thanks... if its will during or not.. i think that the virtual memory is needed  to avoid against on time crashes too...15:02
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lcukyes i agree15:02
oDudawith me ?15:02
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lcukyes, put the vm on lol15:02
oDudayeah just using the 128 that comes with N800 as VM...15:03
oDuda128 mb card...15:03
oDudato use 128mb is a bit little... so ... that will be a vm memory... hehe15:04
lcuki didnt know the n800 came with anything, i know it had slots15:04
timeless_mbpthey're teasers15:04
* lcuk didnt think the n800 was a computer ;)15:04
timeless_mbpthe 770 came w/ 64mb15:04
oDudait cames with a 128mb card...15:04
lcukahh enough to get you started15:04
timeless_mbpiirc the n800's was actually mini w/ a mini->sd adapter15:04
oDudayes... but i put a new 4gb on it too... so...15:04
timeless_mbpbut i could be wrong, it's been a while15:05
derftimeless_mbp: It wasn't.15:05
timeless_mbp128mb full size? oh well15:05
oDudano ! 128mb mini...15:05
derfI assumed it was old stock they couldn't sell any more.15:05
* timeless_mbp looks between oDuda and derf ...15:06
* timeless_mbp is confused15:06
oDudaohhhhh at all pages that i saw... the 128mb card follow the product..15:06
lcukdoes it matter - its a small card easily replaced15:06
lcuktimeless, dont be confused, it puts you off working :P15:07
timeless_mbpthat's irc ;-)15:07
* timeless_mbp cries15:08
timeless_mbphover over "Recommender"15:08
timeless_mbpis it a link?15:08
oDudaand about to setting the VM in N800... the max is 12X mb ?15:08
timeless_mbpthe ui max might have been15:08
timeless_mbpin practice, linux and vm isn't such a wonderful combination15:09
oDudayes... and hacking conf file is possible ?15:09
oDudano ?15:09
timeless_mbpin general you'll find that it's really one app that needs all the vm15:09
timeless_mbpand in that case, you'll end up swapping to death15:09
oDudadeath ?15:09
timeless_mbpthe win is mostly in paging out all the other stupid apps that you aren't using15:09
lcuktimeless_mbp, you remember your stress page15:10
timeless_mbp128mb of vm for the apps you aren't using, 128mb for your one app15:10
timeless_mbplcuk: we were testing and talking about it this week15:10
timeless_mbpwhy do you ask? :)15:10
timeless_mbpthe page is timeless :)15:10
lcukheh cool, well ive been thinking about it as well and with something ive done i think it would be possible to browse it from tablet :)15:10
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timeless_mbpi tried using it to test the next Images app15:11
timeless_mbpevery single step of that test failed *miserably*15:11
lcukits similar in theory to the graffiti wall15:11
timeless_mbp(starting w/ just downloading the page)15:11
* timeless_mbp nods15:11
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lcukwhat the graffiti wall does (and my cells in general) is each cell holds the filename and only if that cell is requested to be rendered does the image get loaded15:12
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* timeless_mbp nods15:12
lcukso when i show the wall only the first 12 sketches/images are loaded15:12
oDudatimeless_mbp: should i turn the VM off in N800 ?15:12
lcukbut then as scrolled they are loaded15:12
lcukhave you seen the playtest for liqbase yet15:12
lcukthe new new one15:12
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lcukcos that has the effect visible on the maemo users tiled images wall15:13
timeless_mbpoDuda: i'm not saying that15:13
timeless_mbpi'm just saying it isn't a panacea15:13
lcukoDuda, turn it on, forget about it15:13
oDudai hate panaceas...15:13
lcukif everything dies replace card15:13
lcukbe happy, dont stress15:13
timeless_mbpi'm saying don't spend too much time thinking about it15:13
oDudapanaceas to me is useless too..15:14
timeless_mbpi think w/ most things on the n800 the right answer is "turn it on to the max, and forget about it"15:14
timeless_mbpe.g. browser cache which ships w/ the smallest size15:14
timeless_mbp= stupid :)15:14
thuxoDuda: i use swap and got better uptime less reboots15:14
oDudayou are right timeless15:14
timeless_mbpoDuda: mostly depressed15:14
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lcuki leave my n800 idle and charging and get amazing uptime15:14
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oDudahahahahahaha... idle without uptime...15:15
oDudaboot uptime...15:15
oDudatime to bootup...15:15
oDudawhere is all ?15:16
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lcukanyway timeless, ill carry on pondering stress  :P15:16
timeless_mbplcuk: some advice15:16
timeless_mbp1. have you seen cooliris?15:16
* lcuk puts it on a back burner15:16
timeless_mbp2. you don't want to load "just what you see"15:16
timeless_mbpyou want to load "what you should see" and "what you are likely to want to see next"15:17
lcukiris wont work well on stress though15:17
oDudathe society is like that...15:17
lcukyou have to wait for entire thing to load properly surely15:17
lcuki agree about loading future items as well15:17
timeless_mbplcuk: to be honest, i've never really used iris15:18
lcukthe old graffiti view used idle time to automatically load the next sketches15:18
lcukthe video looks right15:18
lcukfor pre-stored content it looks amazing15:18
lcukbut there has to be a large cost in loading those textures over the pcix or agp bus in the first place15:19
lcukso yeah - you can have an entire super wall rotatable but it doesnt look like  its got google earth type  stitching etc15:19
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oDudahey jegp i am jecp hehe...15:23
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oDudahb lcuk15:24
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* timeless_mbp finally installs iris15:28
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oDudairis is what ?15:30
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oDudairis is for win ?15:34
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timeless_mbpit works on linux and osx15:40
pupnik_browsing does seem much snappier with flashplugin removed15:40
timeless_mbppupnik_: which platform?15:40
timeless_mbppupnik_: note that our browser has one of the simplest ui's for toggling flash out of the box of any browser i've met15:42
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oDudathux: thank you... very cool aplication... run at n800 ?15:43
lcuktimeless, whenever this subject comes up, i wonder what the mileage of a generic clicktoview (like flashblock) would be that is binary standard plugin and doesnt depend on processing the entire js page searching for stuff the browser has already processed and identified as plugin15:44
* timeless_mbp shrugs15:45
timeless_mbpthere have been a couple of plugin spy impls15:45
timeless_mbpthey basically do passthrough service to real plugins15:45
timeless_mbpit's certainly technically possible to take one of those and have it do something /slightly/ more interesting15:45
timeless_mbp(i.e. click to play)15:45
lcukyeah i did some  deep investigation on firefox/flashblock and found a whole load of limitations and things which could be done quicker15:46
timeless_mbppersonally, when i use firefox, i don't mind that noscript is blocking things for me15:46
timeless_mbpthe perf doesn't matter15:46
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timeless_mbpyou're looking at it from the wrong perspective15:46
timeless_mbpif you load a page and don't need th15:46
timeless_mbpimagine you visit
timeless_mbpit can take 10s to load the page w/o images15:47
timeless_mbp10s to load the images15:47
timeless_mbp10s to load a flash applet15:47
timeless_mbpnow imagine that you don't need the images or flash applet15:47
timeless_mbpimagine it cost you 9s for a script to prevent you from getting the flash and images15:47
timeless_mbp19s is still cheaper than 20s or 30s15:47
lcukbut 10s to get and process the page and add the clicker is even better than 19s15:48
lcukand that works generically no matter what page size15:48
lcukand for all media types15:48
lcukthat req a plugin15:48
lcukalso - for that extra 9 seconds the flash might actually be running15:49
lcuk(as it does using flashblock on firefox)15:49
* timeless_mbp puzzles15:50
timeless_mbpthat's not my experience w/ noscript15:50
* timeless_mbp doesn't use flashblock15:50
lcukflashblock runs AFTER the page has been loaded, the flash is instentiated and runs and only gets replaced after15:50
timeless_mbpw/ noscript, the flash apps afaict are never instantiated until i click on them, not even downloaded15:50
lcukyeah maybe15:50
timeless_mbptry switching15:50
lcukmost sites i visit have js tho and its useful15:51
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lcuki dont want to have to unblock each individually15:51
* timeless_mbp tries to kill safari15:51
timeless_mbpnoscript can default to letting the main site's js run15:52
timeless_mbpand you typically whitelist domains15:52
timeless_mbpreally, give it a try15:52
lcukcool, ill give it a try then15:52
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timeless_mbphey, i was productive at work today!16:16
Stskeepsi'm not sure why wally from dilbert suddenly appeared in front of my eyes16:16
RST38hDoes he have any messages for you?16:17
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timeless_mbppersonally, i prefer
timeless_mbpthis is of course nice:
timeless_mbpbut i haven't fought him in a while16:25
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Stskeepstimeless_mbp: you'd want to see the next one, and wonder if that applies to nokia cameras :P16:27
timeless_mbpi'm going to pretend that on the advice of my lawyer i neither look at nor comment on any such item16:28
suihkulokkiI'm so happy there is no culture of rebates in the shops in northern europe :P16:29
timeless_mbpsuihkulokki: they're called expense reports16:29
timeless_mbpand i think at this point i've failed to collect between 2,000 and 5,000 EUR16:29
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Stskeepsand there went timeless_mbp's productivity ;)16:33
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timeless_mbpyeah well...
timeless_mbpi only have 20 patches to put into bugs (must file first)16:34
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Stskeepsheh.. i think my idle time in cph will be used to file bugs towards maemo really - we have started cleaning up our act so we can now see where our fixes are :P16:36
timeless_mbpspeaking of bugs16:37
Stskeepsyeah, the danish developer weekend? :P16:37
timeless_mbpcan you file a bug for me?16:37
Stskeepsare you banned from bugtracker by now? ;)16:37
timeless_mbpmy results aren't improving w/ time16:37
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Stskeepslo andrewfblack16:47
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andrewfblackjust released some new screenshots of minimalist theme16:53
RST38handrew: itt?16:56
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fiferboylbt: I played around with some default values in QAbstractScrollArea last night16:57
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RST38handrew: do make menu bar smaller16:57
RST38handrew: the same size as the Welcome bar, with the same font, different background color so that it stands out16:57
RST38handrew: lines separating categories are ugly, why not use the same white bars as used in the stats at the bototm of the same screenshot?16:58
lbtfiferboy: any suggestions?16:59
RST38hEdit|Quote|Quick Reply should be in much smaller font16:59
RST38hThere is no need for word "Reply" under "Testing"16:59
fiferboylbt: VMAX at 500 and DECEL_PC at 93 work REALLY nicely for me.16:59
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fiferboyI also tried SENSITIVITY at 6 (like in h-p-a) but it was too sensitive.  20 seems good to me.17:00
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timeless_mbpfwiw, i just tested cooliris on stress17:07
timeless_mbpit can't keep up for an initial pan :(17:08
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lbtfiferboy: OK... I'll change them here ... thanks17:12
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fiferboyNo problem.17:12
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fiferboyI was just trying out the finger scrolling withint scratchbox, and the deceleration looks AMAZING when the system is fast enough for it.17:12
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fiferboyIt looks nice enough on the tablet, but you can tell (at least with my application) that it is struggling a bit17:13
pupnikany tricks to get mplayer to handle toutube HD video?17:13
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Macerhm. watching a special on chernobyl17:21
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fiferboylbt: I just added some quick code to theme all scrollbars (for fingerscroll areas) like Fremantle17:29
lbtmail me a patch?17:30
fiferboylbt: Will do.  We could either have it on all the time (ie for Diablo as well) or put some Frementle IFDEFs around it.17:30
lbthow about basing it on a dynamic property17:31
lbtand defaulting on/off based o ifdefs17:31
fiferboylbt: That sounds good.  I would like to use it in birdlist, so I could turn it on.  Works for me.17:32
fiferboyI notice you set a "FingerScrollable" property, so we could do it like that.17:33
fiferboyOkay, I will change my code to use that before I send it off17:34
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fiferboylbt: Your "FingerScrollable" property just works on a widget-by-widget basis, right?17:50
fiferboyHow do I get a global property for the entire application?17:50
lbtqApp ?17:52
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andrewfblackRST38h: to make you and qgil happy I lowered the font size of reply links and main menu links17:57
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andrewfblackanyone go any input for minimalist theme?18:00
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lbtit's too dark?18:01
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andrewfblackdid you look at new screenshots?18:02
jeremiah_hackingandrewfblack: I will take a look, where is the URL again?18:02
* lbt shouldn't poke the lions....18:02
jeremiah_hackingI like minimal18:02
andrewfblackwill have to look at screenshots on this post
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jeremiah_hackingandrewfblack: I like it. I will use it.18:03
lbtlooks good to me... qgil is right about the Edit/Quote text18:03
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jeremiah_hackingThanks for doing all that work.18:04
andrewfblackjeremiah_hacking: no complaints at all?18:04
andrewfblacklbt: Yeah I lowered them18:04
jeremiah_hackingandrewfblack: None. Not a single one.18:05
jeremiah_hackingandrewfblack: Well, will it make me sexier?18:05
jeremiah_hackingIf not then I have to complain.18:05
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andrewfblackjeremiah_hacking: minimalist themes always make you sexier18:08
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lcukjeremiah_hacking, you STILL hacking? :D18:17
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* timeless_mbp kinda defeats a bug18:21
timeless_mbptoday was an officially productive day at work18:21
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jeremiah_hackinglcuk: About to stop. :P18:27
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fiferboylbt: Do you have to register properties somewhere?18:31
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fiferboyArg, I think I know my problem.  I am not building my program against the modfied library version.18:34
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qgilhi there is Luke Dashjr or Stskeeps around=?18:40
qgilhi, about
qgilis Mer able to circunvent the fact that the GPS driver expects a "user" user?18:41
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luke-jrqgil: gpsdriver aborts when getpwnam fails18:43
qgiland can't there be a "user" user created in the system to make that driver happy? luke-jr ?18:44
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luke-jrshrug. my goal is to replace gpsdriver with something open. these problems are just the method I am focusing on at the moment before more complex methods.18:45
qgilluke-jr: I guess you see the technical difficulties of playing with such driver... but it looks like you are overseeing that complications of opening it up18:46
luke-jris it that complex if TI IPR is stripped out?18:46
qgilluke-jr: how do you strip IPR out? Is not that simple.18:47
luke-jrif it's TI IPR, then presumably it preexists the Nokia code around it and can be identified easily?18:47
luke-jror is this more of a NDA-type issue?18:48
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Jaffaqgil: I'm not such I can speak for Stskeeps or others, but the intention of h-a-m patches I submitted was to remove Maemo-isms like "user" from code running on Mer, as the first thing it does - as an OS - is ask what user you want to create; and that the packages are intended to run on relatively arbitrary systems18:48
Jaffaqgil: It would seem pretty horrible to have a *standard* "user" user, but perhaps a "gpsdriver-compat" package (which is open) could add the `user' account if a) gpsdriver can't be replaced; b) gpsdriver can't be changed to be programmed more flexibly or c) something else I've just forgotten18:49
qgilJaffa: and I understand that, but hopefully it is understandable that being able to user the Maemo binaries 'as is' in unofficial releases is already good enough18:49
* Jaffa nods18:50
lcukqgil quick question, in the bug report you mention that inside the gps driver there is code for uploading this info the nokias servers?  do we have any documentation on when this occurs or how to disable it?18:50
JaffaMight it be worth trying to get a Nokia policy change on future developments to not assume things like /home/user18:50
luke-jrlcuk: that's is supl-daemon I think18:50
fiferboylbt: Have you tested your FingerScrollable dynamic property?18:51
lcukok, just stuck out, the raw driver listens and decodes gps signals, it shouldnt ever need to talk ot or know about anything else18:51
fiferboyI don't see where anything is connected to when an application changes the property.18:51
qgilJaffa: do you mind making a enhancement request, or pointing me to any already filed?18:51
luke-jrthough you do raise an interesting point, lcuk18:51
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luke-jranother reason not to have proprietary GPS driver, is to ensure our own personal privacy18:52
fiferboylbt: Do we need to use QDynamicPropertyChangeEvent?18:52
lbtfiferboy: it's not an api... more a status flag18:52
fiferboyAh, mine needs to be something that is changed programatically, I think.18:52
qgiler... that connection actually happens with the A-GPS and you are accepting the terms in that dialog asking for permissions to connect etc etc18:52
Jaffaqgil: I'll try and have a look tonight for one, and raise one if there isn't one18:52
lcukahh ok qgil :) so its in agps and not in the gps driver itself18:53
* lcuk hasnt installed agps18:53
luke-jrqgil: is it practical to get a quick low-level library to the GPS?18:53
qgilluke-jr: I don't understand your question, sorry18:53
fiferboylbt: Or I can define a Q_PROPERTY for it to be read and set18:54
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luke-jrqgil: gpsdriver basically "converts" ttyS0 data to NMEA data; I'm assuming the NMEA output generation is not TI IPR, and the TI IPR is the ttyS0 end18:55
luke-jrqgil: if Nokia can make a simple C library to take the ttyS0 end, we could write the other side from scratch18:55
qgilluke-jr: I don't know the technical details but the basic thing is: that driver will stay as it is because all our development is focused on a completely different location architecture18:55
luke-jr(ideally giving the library its ttyS0 path/pointer)18:56
Jaffaluke-jr: If Nokia were doing that, they could put the effort into opening the non-TI NMEA-generation bit - since it'd have to be written anyway18:56
JaffaWhich, as qgil says, ain't gonna happen18:56
luke-jrqgil: how about supporting Nokia's current hardware?18:56
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qgilluke-jr: I have nothing to add to all that has been said about the support to N810 customers18:57
lcukthey are, it is supported and works :D  todd on gps tells us where traffic circles are18:58
luke-jrlcuk: it "works" with an unmaintained Maemo version18:58
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lcukluke-jr, expecting nokia to support every OS out there is impractical18:59
* Jaffa also wonders (because this is better than doing anything else) about whether, if this is a growing problem (see also 3D drivers), the community could realistically find (& fund?) someone to work on behalf of Nokia to do the necessary work to split things up into reusable binary blobs.18:59
lcukshould they supply windows drivers?18:59
luke-jrlcuk: I'm not expecting them to, just expecting some kind of low-level library so *we* can write support ourselves18:59
JaffaBut that assumes the work on behalf of Nokia Legal is of no cost/budget to Maemo Software18:59
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qgilthere is this idea of getting a community developer sign an NDA and etc etc19:00
qgilwell, in practice things don't work like this19:00
qgilNDAs are useful when the one who signs it can respond to liabilities19:00
Jaffaqgil: What're the biggest obstacles? Drain on dev. team to support new developer?19:00
VDVsxlcuk, we can try to setup community bounties for that propose19:00
qgilif you are a developer of a Fortune500 company you won't have much trouble getting offers to sign an NDA19:01
VDVsxeerr^^ Jaffa19:01
qgilif you are a community developer is clear that in case of trouble you basically are no liable19:01
Jaffaqgil: Ah, so an individual (even one in a company capacity?) doesn't have enough leverage to risk the leak?19:01
Stskeeps.. okay, what conversation did i just stumble into?19:02
qgilTI sues you Jaffa - so what?19:02
luke-jrStskeeps: gpsdriver19:02
Jaffaqgil: Why, fundamentally, is a Nokia employee more trustworthy though? Losing one's job (if one wants to be malicious) isn't necessarily the end of the world19:03
luke-jrqgil: so we need to find a CEO willing to back this? ;)19:03
lardmanthe other option is to simply write the code, present it to Nokia as a fait accompli. and ask them to sign it off19:03
qgilNow Maemo SW makes some kind of NDA agreement with Jaffa but then he goes and accidentally or not published the whole source code somewhere19:03
qgilTI sues Jaffa? No, of course.19:03
qgiland Nokia sues Jaffa? No of course.19:03
luke-jrlardman: um, if we write the code w/o any help from Nokia, then why present it to them at all?19:03
JaffaNo, TI sues Nokia. That's where the money is.19:03
lardmanluke-jr: to prevent from being sued by anyone19:04
JaffaJust like they would if a Maemo Software employee did the same.19:04
luke-jrlardman: as Quim is mentioning, individuals have no reason to fear being sued :p19:04
Stskeepsqgil: my personal view is that gpsdriver is fine closed, we can make a wrapper to fix the user problem (simply hijacking the getpwnam call), it's not perfect and a simple GPSDRIVER_USER environment variable patch to gpsdriver (still closed) would also be most welcome19:04
lardmanwell you could hire someone as a contractor, assuming you trust them, and pay them an arbitrary $1 for their work19:04
Stskeepsluke-jr doesn't share my view but i think more in direction of practicality19:05
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lcuk+1 sts :)19:05
lardmanStskeeps: agreed there19:05
luke-jrlardman: still doesn't create liability19:05
qgilJaffa: companies work trusting each other - and companies trust their employees (even if they make them sign some papers just in case)19:05
lcukmiddle ground path of least resistance works best for all concerned :)19:05
lardmanluke-jr: yes it does, being employed by the company in question19:05
Stskeepsa little aid to very small patches to closed source packages would always be welcome, if a wrapper is not trivial19:05
luke-jrlardman: for $1, no loss if you lose that job19:05
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* Jaffa wonders how wonderfully thorough Nokia's recruitment process must be ;-)19:06
lardmanluke-jr: the point is not the job, but the access and the fact that being a member of a large company you're more likely to be offered the NDA to sign19:06
Jaffalardman: I think qgil's point is that *Nokia* have everything to lose by taking the liability, and not the person signing the NDA19:06
luke-jrlardman: yes, but Nokia isn't going to want to accept that liability19:07
qgilJaffa: well, you go through some rounds - I have heard worse horror stories from very popular companies19:07
lardmanJaffa: as I said, depends if you trust the person19:07
Stskeepsluke-jr: btw, thanks for telling me which syscall i have to wrap :P19:07
luke-jrStskeeps: -.-19:07
qgilJaffa: and this is why Nokia won't do anything like signing an NDA with a community developer, no matter how many karma points  ;)19:07
Jaffalardman: Indeed. I can see why Nokia (as a corporation) would make the distinction, even though I think we have good metrics - and evidence - of trustiness of particular people19:07
JaffaAnd so, at a practical level, the distinction is probably arbitrary (but, as I say, understandable to my corporate-addled mind)19:08
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Stskeepson the other hand, won't most professional community developers be incorporated? :P19:09
Stskeepsthey have a tendancy to group together19:09
qgilyou need to apply first  :)19:09
qgilmany community developers are now professionals working with Nokia, either as employees or external companies19:10
luke-jrso which of these community developers are working with Nokia as an external company?19:10
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luke-jrpresumably they could solve this?19:10
qgilanyway, I hope the point about is clear, even if you don't agree with the resolution19:10
VDVsxqgil, but a lot of them are, just naming indt and igalia for starters :P19:11
Stskeepsqgil: from mer POV i agree - there might eventually be a need for simple patches to fix specific problems on some packages, but that's a totally different discussion19:11
qgilluke-jr: where do you think many of these small companies come from
lardmanqgil: so pvr will have to be a diy job then...?19:11
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qgillardman no, we are still discussing with TI19:12
lardmanfor them to do the work though?19:12
qgiland they are willing to find a solution so that code can go out with a good legal relationship with the Kernel license19:12
lardmanah ok19:12
Stskeepsthat sounds like a huge leap forward :)19:12
luke-jrqgil: can't discuss GPS with TI? :/19:13
luke-jrfrom what I hear, it's an obsolete model of theirs19:13
luke-jrmaybe they'll just let it go?19:13
qgilask them19:13
qgilfirst things first and the pvr was the first thing that was asked19:13
luke-jrNokia releases gpsdriver code if we get clearance from TI?19:13
Stskeepsqgil: much looking forward to hearing results of those talks, - even a open source kernel driver will be a big leap forward19:14
qgilI'm actually amazed about the amount of time and attention both companies have put in the acceleration drivers19:14
lardmanno, Ti would probably have to release you the specs and you write your own19:14
lardmanluke-jr: the other problem with gpsdriver is the supl stuff19:15
luke-jrlardman: libsupld is BSD-licensed anyway19:15
Stskeepsyeah, probably a legal bug19:16
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* Stskeeps continues making slides for copenhagen19:17
* lardman continues writing a report19:18
lardmanand dreaming dreams of PowerVR goodness19:18
* Stskeeps wonders how gtk doc building can take so long time19:19
qgillardman & other "accelerated" developers, if in the Maemo Summit you find some Kimmo Nikkanen19:19
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qgilplease buy him a beer because he is being your secret godfather19:19
lardmanok, will do :)19:19
qgilhe is an expert on that area, and he really cares about the community being able to experiment19:19
lardmancan we have a mugshot? :)19:19
Stskeepswe should make some location based game on "find the nokia employee and drink with him"19:21
lardmanNokia employee bingo?19:21
Stskeepsgot to get them all ;)19:21
lardmanor some %19:22
qgilnow I realize he has a web page:
VDVsxStskeeps, nokiamon :P19:22
StskeepsVDVsx: .. almost sounds like a fun game to play :>19:23
timeless_mbplcuk: it's unreasonable to demand nokia provide Windows-ARM drivers for their tablets?19:24
* timeless_mbp won't buy another one19:24
lardmanqgil: I'll have to email him to put up his picture :) I wonder if the thought of all of us tracking him down to buy him beer will make him more or less likely to do so :D19:24
timeless_mbpoh you mentioned that19:25
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luke-jrtimeless_mbp: I'm already planning to go with some kind of SmartQ next time around.19:26
luke-jrat least their stuff is open19:26
* qgil goes elsewhere19:27
Stskeepscya :)19:27
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Stskeepsnext up on #maemo: luke-jr complaining of the closed source JPEG accelerator driver19:27
lardmancheers qgil, assuming you see the logs to read this message :)19:28
lardmanStskeeps: ah, well that's open actually19:28
luke-jrStskeeps: think it'll get to the infliential people? :p19:28
lardmanyes, it will really annoy them19:28
luke-jrStskeeps: I'm pretty happy about the SmartQ SoC specs being 100% open19:28
lardmanbut hopefully it won't affect how they deal with the rest of the community19:28
Stskeepsluke-jr: you didn't notice the "CONFIDENTIAL" part of that pdf?19:28
luke-jrlardman: hey, it was their own decisions that led to that comment19:28
luke-jrStskeeps: that doesn't make it apply as a NDA19:29
lardmanindeed, but there are reasons for the decisions19:29
Corsacluke-jr: what about the touchbook, when it starts being real? :)19:29
* Stskeeps 'd get a touchbook.19:30
luke-jrwell, here's hoping it makes them wake up and realize there's no real middle ground if they want a faithful market19:30
luke-jrCorsac: wtf is that?19:30
Stskeepshow can you not know what a touchbook is19:30
lardmanluke-jr: no, you're wrong there. We went through all of this arguing business back when we first asked for the pvr driver19:30
Stskeepsit's practically a portable beagleboard19:31
* Corsac 's brother in law will work at AI starting next year 19:31
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luke-jrStskeeps: it's not in my field of interest?19:31
luke-jrlooks too big19:31
lardmanCorsac: I'd never heard of it, looks cool though19:31
luke-jrStskeeps: maybe my wife will want one19:32
Corsacyeah, it's more netbook sized than NIT sized19:32
Stskeepsstill, 10-12 hours of battery life19:32
lardmanI still want something inbetween, umid or psion 5 sized19:33
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CorsacI just love the fridge stuff19:34
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luke-jrI want to max out my pocket space :p19:38
luke-jrmaybe fold out into a dual-display19:39
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GAN800Ah, absolutism is fun.19:41
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lardmanbut yeah19:42
lardmanhow goes it anyway General?19:43
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StsN800lo GeneralAntilles19:43
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GAN800Work, work, work19:47
GAN800lardman, '100% open or nobody will ever buy' ;)19:47
lardmanI am!19:47
lardmanyeah, I can't quite get that attitude19:47
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GAN800lardman, especially since it has zero basis in reality. ;)20:06
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yergacan't connect to the garage svn...20:08
yergasomeone can confirm it?20:08
yergathe git server works great though20:08
* Stskeeps yawns20:09
lardmanGAN800: yeah, feels like the "discussions" from back when we were campaigning for the PowerVR driver doens't it :)20:10
lardmanGAN800: did you see qgil's comments re. Ti & ImgTech being interested in getting a workable driver available20:10
GAN800lardman, didn't you hear? Communities are cyclical.20:10
lardmanI must just have a very long wavelength20:11
lardmanor low velocity20:11
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Stskeepsat least we didn't have "Let's get Windows CE working!"20:12
lardmanwe used to have that though :)20:12
lcukfuck CE< i want windows 7 on my hardware20:12
lardmanand the questions about geting WINE working :D20:12
lardmanlcuk: tut tut tut, there are young viewers at this time of night20:13
lcukheh simon we make extensive use of wine already, and beer20:13
lardmandon't mention the Windows 7 word20:13
lcukflip CE< then even - apologies20:13
* lardman is drinking a beer too :)20:13
lcukohh yeah a beer would be good at this point20:13
lcuki dont think the shop will serve jake yet tho20:14
lardmanwhy not give him your drivers licence? He could turn up in a car to buy the beers20:14
GAN800lardman, yeah, saw it.20:15
lardmanhe'd probably get in more trouble with the cops for buying beer than driving the car anyway :p20:15
lcukluke came home with a random driving license yesterday actually20:15
lardmansomeone bought a laminator....?20:15
lcukheh no a proper one he found it on the street, gonna post it off to the address20:16
lardmanGAN800: and I was just getting stuck into the asm20:16
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Meizirkkihi sanjay697620:16
MeizirkkiAny medibox expert here?20:16
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Meizirkkii cannot figure out why MediaBox plays everything nicely thru Gstreamer on my Ubuntu-box, but on n810 it is unable to use the output20:17
Meizirkki(in Mer n8x0)20:17
lardmanwhat are you playing?20:18
lardmanGStreamer components missing?20:18
StskeepsMeizirkki: did you enable xine output?20:18
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MeizirkkiStskeeps, Xine output works somehow too20:18
Stskeepsthat's probably ubuntu related, you have to dl a codec from multiverse20:18
LiraNuna < "market that does not exist" !?20:18
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MeizirkkiStskeeps, i have all the codecs, but mediabox doesn't recognise the output20:19
Meizirkkionly selectable is Xine20:19
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sanjay6976after installing maemo 4.1.2 if i run af-sb-init  in DIABLO_ARMEL i get the error " /home/maemouser/.osso/current-gtk-key-theme:1: Unable to find include file: "keybindings.rc""20:22
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sanjay6976the problem is that i am not able to lanch emulator gui from ARMEL20:26
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sanjay6976any help20:28
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lardmansanjay6976: iirc it's not possible to launch the GUI from the ARMEL target20:34
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lardmanif you want to do GUI programming you must target X86 and try there, or run it on-device20:35
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luke-jrGAN800: I didn't so "or nobody will buy", but when you're targetting the *open source* community with your product, one of the main factors to focus on is keeping things *open source*20:36
luke-jrand if they're targetting *general purpose* users, they sure did a crappy job of the PIM software20:36
luke-jrso in the end, they're not really satisfying *either* market20:37
sanjay6976lardman:thanks is there any way i can achive it20:37
luke-jrwhich has got to be worse than picking one and satisfying that market20:37
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VDVsxlardman, humm, is this also valid for Diablo ?, I thought it is only a fremantle issue20:40
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VDVsxnahh, the emulated GUI works fine in my armel target (Diablo)20:43
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GAN800luke-jr, things aint that black and white20:45
GAN800and you're not being realistic about the market.20:46
sanjay6976VDVsx: is it maemo 4.1.2?20:47
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sanjay6976VDVsx: how did u do that?20:48
VDVsxsanjay6976, nop, is 4.1, a old installation20:48
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VDVsxsanjay6976, did you installed the entire sdk runtime ?20:49
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lardmanVDVsx: ah, ok20:51
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VDVsxsanjay6976, try to install the runtime + dev packages (fakeroot apt-get install maemo-sdk-dev)20:51
sanjay6976VDVsx:i did maemo-sdk-dev20:51
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timeless_mbpluke-jr: i think we're very much aware of our failings20:53
timeless_mbpwhich isn't to say that some people shouldn't be reminded of them20:53
RST38hmoo all20:53
timeless_mbpalthough in this case, you should complain to Ari20:53
timeless_mbpQuim can't really do much20:54
* timeless_mbp ponders20:54
timeless_mbphow many software updates did you get to your Original Nintendo Entertainment System ?20:55
timeless_mbpfor the record, I got <ZERO>20:55
timeless_mbpbut I was quite happy with it and used it for many years20:55
RST38hOriginal NES had no builtin firmware.20:55
MyrttiI still used mine two years ago :-(20:55
RST38hSo this point does not apply to NES.20:56
VDVsxsanjay6976, can you pastebin the entire output of the af-sb-init command ?20:56
RST38hMyrtti: It is time to move on to iNES :)20:56
MyrttiRST38h: I've moved to NDS20:56
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timeless_mbpRST38h: i'm drawing a weak parallel20:57
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timeless_mbpthere were components in the nintendo20:57
timeless_mbpit was theoretically possible for some of those components to break20:57
RST38hMyrtti: not a bad idea20:57
timeless_mbpif they broke and you were in warranty, you could get nintendo to replace them20:57
timeless_mbpnintendo never promised to give you schematics, and to my knowledge there were no user serviceable parts20:58
RST38hHow is it related to software? Especially, how is it related to software in NIT firmware that has been broken from the moment it has been shipped to users?20:58
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timeless_mbpi'm not sure about your 770, as to whether Nokia promised hardware schematics20:58
timeless_mbpbut... walk slowly20:58
* timeless_mbp has to find other devices20:58
RST38hYea, go search for other examples.20:59
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sanjay6976VDVsx:[sbox-DIABLO_ARMEL: ~] > start Note: For remote X connections DISPLAY should contain hostname! Sample files present. Starting DBUS system bus Starting D-BUS session bus daemon Starting Maemo Launcher: maemo-launcher. defender: died my parent is not who he claims to be maemo-launcher: warning rising the oom shield for pid=26027 status=281620:59
* timeless_mbp hasn't really purchased many items20:59
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RST38h(although it will be somewhat of a problem under given preconditions)20:59
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luke-jrtimeless_mbp: who is Ari?21:00
MyrttiAri Jaaksi I presume21:00
RST38h(like you may have to use WinCE devices as an example and THAT would look really desperate)21:00
sanjay6976VDVsx:Unable to find include file: "keybindings.rc" it gives21:00
timeless_mbpi was hoping someone would spell his name and save me the effort21:00
timeless_mbp"it's all his fault"21:01
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Myrttihe's really a nice guy though21:01
timeless_mbp(and he's welcome to claim any success he can find)21:01
VDVsxsanjay6976, yah, paste the output here:  and send me the link21:01
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sanjay6976VDVsx:i have pasted at
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* timeless_mbp ponders21:06
timeless_mbpanyone here happen to have purchased a Newton?21:06
timeless_mbpI'd rather not point to my iPod touch (for which i've had to pay for bug fixes and new features)21:06
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VDVsxsanjay6976, try to check this:
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* timeless_mbp shrugs21:13
timeless_mbpit's really not worth explaining21:13
timeless_mbpNintendo has two groups, a hardware group which sells devices21:14
timeless_mbpand a software group which makes and sells games21:14
timeless_mbpNokia is a hardware company, it makes and sells hardware21:14
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timeless_mbpthe hardware happens to include software21:14
timeless_mbpnokia has virtually no experience in other markets21:15
timeless_mbpit'll take years for us to learn how to get some other mix21:15
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timeless_mbpbtw, i finally used the transflexive display of my n810, when i was in Mountain View21:15
timeless_mbpand I'm happy to report that it really works!21:15
timeless_mbpin other news, my n81 8GB failed that test miserably21:16
timeless_mbpi could use my n810 in the sun while i was outside21:16
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timeless_mbpabout a week later i finally discovered my n81's display was dimmed to nearly the lowest possible setting, which explains why i couldn't use it outside, but ...21:16
timeless_mbpit took me a week to discover that :)21:17
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timeless_mbpa week which i spent cursing the phone ;)21:17
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timeless_mbpluke-jr: for reference, the n800 does not work outside in the sun21:18
timeless_mbp(nor did the 770 for that matter)21:18
timeless_mbpone of the major improvements the n810 had (and the only one that interested me) was the display technology21:18
timeless_mbpbut when people asked us about it as the product was announced, all I could say at the time was "it's winter here in helsinki, ask me in a few months when the sun comes out"21:19
timeless_mbpon this trip, someone forced me to remove the original plastic film that you're supposed to remove when you get your device21:19
timeless_mbp(which i think means the sheet lasted about 2 years)21:19
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Stskeepstimeless_mbp: i have a good screenprotector that makes it decently viewable in the sun for n800 :P21:20
luke-jrtimeless_mbp: I always leave that on as a screen protecter21:20
luke-jrthough mine didn't come with one :/21:20
timeless_mbpluke-jr: i always try to, and have been relatively good at keeping them that way21:20
timeless_mbpmy e61i still had its when the screen died21:20
timeless_mbpi took off my n81's when i was trying to figure out why the screen didn't work in the sun :(21:21
* timeless_mbp wonders how to rename a google map21:22
sanjay6976VDVsx:what will be the DISPLAY variable for xephr for armel21:22
timeless_mbpsanjay6976: xephyr typically runs on :221:23
timeless_mbpbut when you're running xephyr itself, you typically need DISPLAY set to the normal Xserver (:0)21:23
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sanjay6976i am trying to launch maemo emulator from armel i am getting the errori given in the link with display=:221:28
timeless_mbpso, env vars are um... not quite case insensitive21:29
timeless_mbpdid you run xephyr?21:29
timeless_mbpit's basically:21:29
timeless_mbpxephyr of course should be run from outside scratchbox21:30
timeless_mbpand maemo would be inside21:30
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* timeless_mbp loves the unsupported syscall's21:30
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sanjay6976i feel there is some error in xephyr21:37
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sanjay6976while launchin xephyr it gives  "Extended Input Devices not yet supported. Impelement it at line 625 in kinput.c"21:40
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StskeepsGAN800: you ran Mer on the dell mini 9?21:44
sanjay6976any help21:45
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RST38hsanjay: Doesn't it tell you directly what to do?21:51
RST38hkinput.c, line 625 =)21:51
Stskeepssanjay6976: ubuntu 9.04?21:52
sanjay6976no fedora21:52
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sanjay6976RST38h:what i have to implement21:53
sanjay6976not getting it21:53
VDVsxsanjay6976, did you followed the instruction that I sent ?21:55
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VDVsxsanjay6976, you have the same error or a different one ?21:55
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sanjay6976VDVsx:sorry but i didn't get the instruction please if u can send it again the error is same22:00
VDVsxsanjay6976, try to check this:
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tank-mananyone know anything about a newer garnet (palmos) vm ? current one has timebomb that expires in 10 days22:04
lcuk*cue dramatic 24 clock beeps*22:05
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lcukno tank-man didnt know it had a best before date22:06
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Javipropietary software, you know22:06
Javia pity for those who are using agendus or some other palm pim soft22:08
Javion 10 days we promise... kaos22:08
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sanjay6976tried setting that please check the outputin
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Macerhm. did russia bury a bunch of bodies after chernobyl?22:52
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RST38hYes, and they still glow22:56
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RST38h(aside from the ones that dug themselves out and walked away looking for humans that is)22:56
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sanjay6976while running qmake i get the error "mmap: No such device or address"23:00
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GAN800Yes, worked fine minus the virtual input issues.23:04
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GAN800Er, Stskeeps.23:05
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GAN800Stskeeps, I'd probably consider switching over at some point.23:09
GAN800Although Moblin's new UI efforts look nice.23:09
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Macerthe japanese are strange23:13
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sanjay6976 VDVsx:thanks for the help able to launch emulato :)23:13
VDVsxsanjay6976, good :)23:13
sanjay6976I am getting error now while trying to run qmake it gives me "mmap: No such device or address"23:15
sanjay6976while trying to run qmake of Qt over this23:16
StskeepsJaffa: around?23:16
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Stskeepsanother libtime victim23:19
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* Stskeeps is fucking tired of silly nokia-binaries stuff like libtime which is a dbus wrapper.23:25
ShadowJKdude, writing wrappers is the best thing ever. You end up writing many many lines of code, with minimal effort!23:27
JaffaStskeeps: yup (semi-briefly, hopefully)23:28
GAN800Stskeeps, go kick some ass.23:28
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GAN800Mailing list rants are always fun. ;)23:29
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StskeepsJaffa: did you add extra patches to HAM when that was?23:29
StskeepsGAN800: i did already23:29
Stskeeps(on bugs.*23:29
JaffaStskeeps: yeah - ones not already in bmo were logged (i.e. the "don't depend on user" one which got resolved recently)23:31
Stskeepsi can't upgrade to fremantle beta HAM anyway due to silly libtime-dev23:31
JaffaEverything *should* have been carefully committed separately in bzr23:32
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timeless_mbpShadowJK: exactly23:34
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timeless_mbpwrapping wrappers for fun and profit!23:34
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ShadowJKThe most fun is writing wrappers/frameworks that don't have a use yet23:35
ShadowJKthen the next guy who actually finds a use for it comes and goes "wtf", and goes to great lengths to adapt his software to your strangeish framework ;)23:35
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timeless_mbpShadowJK: you must have tried to use browser-eal :)23:37
timeless_mbpor maemo-location23:37
timeless_mbpor any hildon framework23:37
timeless_mbpor gnomevfs23:37
* timeless_mbp ponders23:37
timeless_mbpor pretty much any software that's been touched here :)23:37
ShadowJKgpsbt or whatever it was called23:38
timeless_mbpframeworks are indeed fun23:38
timeless_mbpit's also fun to work w/ people who change the api every day or week23:38
timeless_mbpthey're learning how to do it now23:39
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ShadowJKyou need rules for that. You change the API, you also change/send patches for all software using it ;)23:39
timeless_mbpwhile people are using it and writing code which is supposed to be more production stable than the framework being written concurrently :)23:39
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timeless_mbpShadowJK: if only it were that simple23:39
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timeless_mbpfirst you'd have to find all the consumers and the repos and the builders23:39
timeless_mbpand then you'd have to find the version that still builds and get everything pushed in a single lump23:40
* timeless_mbp sighs23:40
timeless_mbpworking on mozilla was so much easier23:40
timeless_mbpeveryone lived in one tree23:40
timeless_mbpif i changed an api, i posted a patch for all of the consumers, gave them a warning23:40
ShadowJKLinux kernel people have that "you break api you fix users" policy, it also works as an incentive for driver developers to not have their drivers bitrot outside the kernel :)23:40
timeless_mbpand then landed for everyone concurrently23:40
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timeless_mbps/users/in-tree consumers/23:40
crashanddiehey timeless_mbp23:41
timeless_mbpi owe you guys a fax23:41
* timeless_mbp wonders how to print23:41
crashanddie@All: How do I remove Mer?23:41
crashanddieI need the internal mem card for storage23:42
crashanddietimeless_mbp, you never told me how it went, you got anything beneficial from the lunch?23:42
* ShadowJK 'd imagine format card thingy in the file browser in maemo might be useful too (but I wouldn't dare use it with external card in slot)23:43
lbtalso /etc/bootmenu.d/Mer.item23:43
crashanddielbt, got anything more verbose?23:45
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lbtnot really....23:48
lbtwhat do yo want to do?23:48
lbtget rid?23:48
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crashanddielbt, think I got it, cheers23:49
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lbtheh ... I was going to walk you through and update the wiki23:49
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