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| GAN800 | Ug S60 | 05:05 |
| GAN800 | Can't install a freaking IRC client because of expired certs | 05:06 |
| GAN800 | No matter what I set the goddamn date to. | 05:06 |
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| Bobbe | GAN800, hack it my friend. Hack it =) | 06:33 |
| Bobbe | GAN800: is your firmware new? | 06:33 |
| GAN800 | 5800 | 06:37 |
| GAN800 | Haven't figured out OTA updates | 06:37 |
| johnx | ha! hacking phones, an age old tradition | 06:37 |
| johnx | I remember getting into debug/monitor mode on a startac | 06:38 |
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| Bobbe | the hack seems to be a standard-issue HelloOX hack GAN800 | 06:42 |
| johnx | speaking of hacks, and GAN800 here will especially enjoy this: I now run the jailbreak on ipod touches as part of my 9-5 job | 06:43 |
| Bobbe | GAN800, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coD7XAyv1nQ | 06:44 |
| Bobbe | Have fun | 06:44 |
| Bobbe | johnx, o_O? | 06:44 |
| johnx | yup | 06:44 |
| Bobbe | elaborate | 06:44 |
| Bobbe | pls | 06:44 |
| johnx | we use them as an educational tool for handing out to kids to watch videos on (in a supervised area), but we don't want kids going in and mucking around when they should be watching their video | 06:45 |
| johnx | so we jailbreak so we can turn off all the functions that aren't video basically | 06:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx, lol | 06:45 |
| Bobbe | lol | 06:45 |
| johnx | I turned out 6 today in the afternoon...what a *$&%$ing annoying process | 06:46 |
| Bobbe | I wonder how Steve would explain to the world how it is SO DAMN WRONG that ur jailbreaking his devices to do terrible, obnoxious things, like educating children | 06:46 |
| johnx | heh, and that we need more control of the device so we can give someone else less control | 06:47 |
| johnx | we are jailbreaking to remove features | 06:47 |
| Bobbe | exactly. | 06:47 |
| johnx | and I'd have no problem convincing them to go with Nokia stuff except that the N9xx hardware isn't out and the N8x0 hardware is obviously being phased out | 06:48 |
| johnx | to say nothing of the fact that a touch isn't any cheaper than an n810 ... | 06:49 |
| Bobbe | talk about phasing out. I got it here in Brazil for around R$400 (conversing and adapting to the US market it would be something like 99,99) | 06:49 |
| GAN800 | lol, the 5800 turns its screen on to show that retarded wallwart warning | 06:49 |
| Bobbe | and even got a router in the pack | 06:49 |
| GAN800 | and they ship with freaking AC-8Us | 06:49 |
| johnx | Bobbe, that's a nice deal | 06:49 |
| Bobbe | excellent, actually. I'm all perked up tinkering with mine, tho i have no idea what I'm doing sometimes. Just sad that it doesn't get overclocked | 06:50 |
| Bobbe | that and hardware acceleration drivers would make it sweet for a more years of use | 06:50 |
| Bobbe | *a few more years | 06:50 |
| GAN800 | OC would break it | 06:51 |
| Bobbe | GAN800, AC-8Us are an excellent idea. I charge my E71, old 5200 and my N800 on one plug | 06:51 |
| Bobbe | OC? | 06:51 |
| johnx | eh, overclocking probably wouldn't break it if done sparingly | 06:51 |
| Bobbe | ah, overclocking lol | 06:52 |
| * Bobbe dumb today | 06:52 | |
| Bobbe | ppl talked about going as far as 600mhz, but I don't think it would take the heat | 06:52 |
| Bobbe | even 450, 500 would be excellent. | 06:52 |
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| Navi | I charge my bluetooth headset and N800 on one plug | 06:53 |
| Navi | I need the other one for my E70 | 06:53 |
| GAN800 | johnx, igor explained it somewhere | 06:53 |
| GAN800 | johnx, basically, it aint gonna happen | 06:54 |
| Bobbe | is the e70 that one that the kb opens to both sides? | 06:54 |
| GAN800 | You'll fry the cache or something that's tied into the CPU timer. | 06:54 |
| Navi | Bobbe: yes | 06:54 |
| johnx | ah, right. I remember Igor saying it wouldn't happen, but I forgot that it was a "fry your hardware" kinda thing | 06:54 |
| Bobbe | that's old-school =). U still use it daily? | 06:55 |
| johnx | hey Navi :D | 06:55 |
| Bobbe | how bizarre, ovi store is asking for a login | 06:56 |
| Navi | Hello | 06:56 |
| GAN800 | Ugh, apparently it's not possible to update this piece of shit OTA | 06:56 |
| GAN800 | Whatever feature on Nokia's website existed to send you the required settings is now gone | 06:57 |
| GAN800 | Jesus this is some complicates bullshit | 06:57 |
| Bobbe | GAN800, what do u mean by update? like get the apn info? | 06:57 |
| GAN800 | OTA firmware updates | 06:57 |
| Bobbe | usb? | 06:57 |
| johnx | GAN800, are you liking the phone otherwise? | 06:58 |
| GAN800 | it bitches about creating a new server profile but apparently the required info isn't available anywhere. | 06:58 |
| GAN800 | johnx, I guess, but this is turning my vision red at the moment so I can't really say | 06:58 |
| GAN800 | Bobbe, no Windows here. | 06:58 |
| Bobbe | ouch | 07:01 |
| GAN800 | Seriously, not one goddamn useful answer on the whole internet | 07:05 |
| Navi | It's Nokia | 07:05 |
| luke-jr__ | N900 has a 3 gpx camera | 07:05 |
| luke-jr__ | 64000x48000 | 07:05 |
| GAN800 | 5mp | 07:05 |
| Navi | Nokia support sucks in the far west, remember? | 07:05 |
| luke-jr__ | GAN800: shh, I'm starting a rumour | 07:06 |
| GAN800 | Navi, internet doesn't have a thing to do with geography | 07:06 |
| Navi | But the Nokia site does | 07:06 |
| johnx | it has everything to do with written language though | 07:06 |
| Navi | and Nokia's crappy servers | 07:06 |
| ShadowJK | Except nokia has different firmware for different regions :) | 07:06 |
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| * johnx could only find answers to his Samba problems in German | 07:07 | |
| GAN800 | Can't this infp just come from another goddamn phone. | 07:07 |
| johnx | that would be too easy | 07:07 |
| johnx | people would be able to upgrade their phones whenever they wanted. we can't have that | 07:07 |
| GAN800 | Why did I think Symbian would be a good idea? | 07:08 |
| johnx | optimism about the unknown | 07:08 |
| johnx | same reason people think the n8x0 is a desktop replacement | 07:09 |
| luke-jr__ | johnx: because it's useless as anything else? | 07:09 |
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| Navi | Pfft | 07:09 |
| Navi | the UI shit is all third party | 07:09 |
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| luke-jr__ | Navi: what? | 07:10 |
| johnx | luke-jr, so you think GA thought that Symbian would be a good idea because it's as useless as anything else? that doesn't even make sense... | 07:10 |
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| luke-jr__ | N8x0's default UI is not third party | 07:10 |
| Navi | The UI shell for Symbian | 07:10 |
| * Navi smacks luke-jr__ | 07:10 | |
| luke-jr__ | johnx: what is Symbian? :p | 07:10 |
| Navi | Connecting to the Nokia servers and receiving the info is all Nokia's in-house crap | 07:11 |
| GAN800 | I like how the 'Download themes' link takes you to a page with a half-dozen crappy backgrounds. | 07:11 |
| Navi | Though, Symbian sucks in general | 07:12 |
| Bobbe | GAN800, dude, I think it would take less time for you to install windows on a box and update it than trying over the air. servers must be down or something | 07:13 |
| GAN800 | Bobbe, I HAVE NO server infp | 07:13 |
| GAN800 | it's all blank and there's apparently no way to get it | 07:14 |
| GAN800 | and, no, installing Windows is not an option | 07:14 |
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| Bobbe | er... what's infp? | 07:14 |
| Bobbe | (sorry) | 07:14 |
| GAN800 | info | 07:14 |
| Navi | Oh, just to mention | 07:15 |
| Bobbe | k | 07:15 |
| johnx | luke-jr, it's the thing that runs on most of the phones in the world | 07:15 |
| Navi | last I heard, OTA is only supported in Europe | 07:15 |
| Navi | That's why you got no shit info | 07:15 |
| johnx | more irony: one of my tasks for tonight is to install windows 7 on my work macbook | 07:15 |
| Navi | And if it is, it's flaky at best | 07:16 |
| ShadowJK | A friend at work has a 5800, and it had a firmware upgrade check thingy that said, when he showed it to me, that he had the latest firmware | 07:17 |
| ShadowJK | (europe) | 07:17 |
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| Navi | Nokia could care less about the land dominated by LG and Motorola | 07:19 |
| johnx | motorola is dominating something? | 07:19 |
| johnx | a mud puddle? | 07:19 |
| Bobbe | lol | 07:19 |
| Navi | Motorola makes some of the best crap phones | 07:20 |
| Navi | People get Motorola phones for free with contract | 07:20 |
| Navi | who cares about features, right? | 07:20 |
| johnx | maybe, but right now they're not pushing many | 07:20 |
| johnx | LG and Samsung are eating their lunch | 07:20 |
| johnx | just saw sales figures a bit ago | 07:20 |
| Navi | orly | 07:20 |
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| Navi | They've been pushing more commercials as well | 07:21 |
| johnx | let's see if I can dig it up | 07:21 |
| Bobbe | Navi, I don't think it's geographic | 07:21 |
| Bobbe | http://nokiabr.blogspot.com/2009/04/atualizando-o-xm-5800-via-ota-over-air.html | 07:21 |
| ShadowJK | I guess also in the US most phones are sold bundled and locked to contracts, with firmware locked down by the operator.. | 07:21 |
| Bobbe | that might as well be the reason | 07:21 |
| Navi | It's regional | 07:21 |
| Bobbe | GAN800, is your phone locked? | 07:21 |
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| GAN800 | No. . . . | 07:22 |
| GAN800 | Nobody in the US carries Nokia phones | 07:22 |
| Navi | Don't know why they still have the premiums on the Nokia phones in the US either | 07:22 |
| GAN800 | There are a grand total of maybe 3 E/N-series phones available with contract | 07:22 |
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| Bobbe | wasn't at&t selling the e71 at 99? | 07:24 |
| Bobbe | is it one of the three? | 07:24 |
| ShadowJK | Navi, what premiums :) | 07:24 |
| Navi | ShadowJK: 499 for hardware that is half a decade old | 07:25 |
| ShadowJK | I don't think anyone is taking pre-orders for N97 at lower price than Nokia USA :) | 07:25 |
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| GAN800 | 480? Nope. ;) | 07:25 |
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| ljp | Navi: its because in the US, the operators wont subsidize Nokia phones | 07:28 |
| Bobbe | GAN800, is Comes With Music working OK? Have u tried it yet? | 07:28 |
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| GAN800 | No | 07:28 |
| GAN800 | Not tried it | 07:28 |
| Navi | ljp: so it has to be as expensive as subsidized unlocked phones? | 07:29 |
| Bobbe | Got this in nokia support discussions: "I spoke with a collegue who works for Nokia in the EU and they have just recently changed the management structure (read between lines) at their US division. The lack of US support is just one of the many failings Nokia HQ has recognzed in their US division. " | 07:29 |
| Navi | Yes, the lack of support is a pretty obvious thing | 07:29 |
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| Bobbe | well, I'm off guys. GAN800, if you have access to a linux box, ppl have been able to use PC Suite to update their firmware over vmware. But if windows is not an option, I suppose a windows vm is not either | 07:37 |
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| b1ackdeath | penguinbait's install-tools-N810e.deb dosnt work on 43-7 right? | 08:01 |
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| jaem | hey folks | 08:27 |
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| jaem | to clarify, does anyone know if Diga @Web is only free for the beta period? | 08:29 |
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| thux | morning | 09:29 |
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| * Stskeeps yawns | 09:49 | |
| * Myrtti sighs | 09:51 | |
| * Stskeeps passes Myrtti a hello kitty coffee mug | 09:51 | |
| Myrtti | thankies love | 09:51 |
| Stskeeps | things i never thought i'd do in my life: check up on chinese forums with translate.google.com in the morning | 09:52 |
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| RST38h | Sts: We all feel your pain. | 09:58 |
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| Macer | have to love a nutjob setting people on fire | 10:13 |
| Stskeeps | mm? | 10:15 |
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| rkirti | /whois Myrtti | 10:24 |
| rkirti | oops...sorry for that | 10:24 |
| Stskeeps | morning rkirti | 10:24 |
| rkirti | morning Stskeeps | 10:24 |
| Stskeeps | when is it the gsoc students are supposed to start their work btw? | 10:25 |
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| rkirti | Stskeeps: 23rd May. though its only for the namesake. All the people I know are racing ahead with their projects :) | 10:26 |
| Stskeeps | hehe | 10:26 |
| Corsac | do we know if freemantle will have some PDA capabilities (like PIM, sync etc.) which diablo doesn't really have? | 10:28 |
| Stskeeps | they have a calendar backend and sync it seems | 10:28 |
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| Myrtti | last day of vacation *sigh* | 10:29 |
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| aquatix | Macer: aww | 10:31 |
| aquatix | erm | 10:31 |
| aquatix | tab error | 10:31 |
| aquatix | Myrtti: aww | 10:31 |
| aquatix | enjoy it :) | 10:31 |
| biiter | hi, i wonder, how is internet table "internet" when default web browser and fennec are slow as hell? .. and gui in general... is there any alternative with less overload? | 10:31 |
| Stskeeps | biiter: you will want to try out Tear | 10:32 |
| Stskeeps | it's excellent | 10:32 |
| Stskeeps | based on webkit engine | 10:32 |
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| radic_ | does an replacement for nolo exist? | 10:32 |
| biiter | ok.. ill try :) | 10:32 |
| Stskeeps | it really has caused me to use my tablet much more for browsing | 10:33 |
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| Jaffa | Stskeeps: is it in a single repo yet? Last time I looked there was a repo from qole and one from Bundyo | 10:35 |
| biiter | Stskeeps: and any GTK replacement? | 10:35 |
| Stskeeps | not sure | 10:35 |
| Stskeeps | biiter: as in newer GTK? that's a worse question :) | 10:35 |
| Macer | haha | 10:35 |
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| Jaffa | biiter: There are Qt apps, SDL apps, EFL apps and liqbase | 10:35 |
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| biiter | it works like this ? (gtl / qt)<-hildon<-app ?? | 10:49 |
| biiter | gtk | 10:49 |
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| Summeli | how fast is the qt? | 10:50 |
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| biiter | oh yeah... tear is cool :] thx | 10:55 |
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| Jaffa | biiter: Hildon is a framework on top of Gtk | 10:58 |
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| ShadowJK | the browser is so fast browsing mailing list archives. wish all web pages were as light :-) | 10:58 |
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| biiter | Jaffa: and can it be on top of qt? | 10:59 |
| Jaffa | biiter: No. But the Qt port has its own equivalent (and may even use the same names - I dunno, not looked at the API) | 11:00 |
| Summeli | hmm. maybe I could benchmark the qt blit some day :P | 11:01 |
| biiter | ok.. btw.. why maemo uses gtk when nokia owns qt | 11:01 |
| Stskeeps | nokia didnt own qt when maemo started :) | 11:01 |
| biiter | dammit.. ok :] | 11:01 |
| biiter | thx | 11:01 |
| biiter | oh, and that 2d/3d co-processor on the board is used natively or it needs to be requested by application? | 11:03 |
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| qgil | I'm intrigued about the reasons why a http://maemo.org/news/planet-maemo/ reader would click thumbs down to the entries about the Maemo Summit and the Danish Weekend... | 11:07 |
| lbt | the qt hildon stuff aims to be comparable to the gtk and use the same dbus api | 11:07 |
| lbt | they can't go and they're fed up? | 11:08 |
| suihkulokki | qgil: some enviromentalist dissaproving excessive travel? :P | 11:08 |
| Jaffa | :) | 11:08 |
| qgil | suihkulokki: that could be | 11:08 |
| qgil | lbt: what is the question exactly? | 11:10 |
| lbt | qgil: that was an answer to bitter/Jaffa :) | 11:10 |
| lbt | (essentially does Qt have Hildon?) | 11:12 |
| Stskeeps | it emulates hildon | 11:12 |
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| RST38h | qgil: Track him done and wrestle the answer from him! | 11:12 |
| biiter | this could be replacement http://qt4.garage.maemo.org/ | 11:13 |
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| biiter | http://qtablet.laginen.net/doku.php | 11:16 |
| biiter | got to sit on this | 11:16 |
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| lbt | biiter: yes, I'm working on it too | 11:18 |
| lbt | right now I'm doing scroll-bounce | 11:18 |
| lbt | fingerscrolling works | 11:18 |
| biiter | fu*k.. im late on exam... afk | 11:19 |
| Stskeeps | tablets > exams | 11:19 |
| Stskeeps | ;) | 11:19 |
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| thux | is there tablet degree like rhce? | 11:22 |
| thux | hands on test tuning tablet | 11:22 |
| ShadowJK | biiter: 3d accel not used by anything. Some 2d accel used by mplayer, liqbase, media player... | 11:22 |
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| ShadowJK | either through direct hw access (mplayer) or through Xvideo | 11:23 |
| ShadowJK | media player also uses the dsp for mp3 :) | 11:23 |
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| RST38h | Current Xv only exposes YUV buffers | 11:27 |
| ShadowJK | yeah well, it's designed for video after all :) | 11:27 |
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| Jaffa | X-Fade: ping | 11:58 |
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| timeless_mbp | crashanddie: ping | 12:19 |
| Stskeeps | morn timeless_mbp | 12:20 |
| timeless_mbp | 2am..., how's life on the other side of the world? | 12:20 |
| Stskeeps | sunny for once | 12:20 |
| murrayc | Where is the modest package for the Maemo 5 Beta? In extras? It doesn''t seem to be in extras-devel | 12:23 |
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| Stskeeps | http://repository.maemo.org/pool/fremantle/free/m/modest/ ? :P | 12:25 |
| murrayc | Yeah, I just saw that, which suggests that it's in the main repository. | 12:25 |
| murrayc | But "apt-get install modest" can't find it. | 12:25 |
| Corsac | hmhm, did someone already tried to dist-upgrade a tablet to fremantle using the sdk repository? | 12:26 |
| Corsac | that would be fun | 12:26 |
| Stskeeps | Corsac: it's armv7 targeted | 12:26 |
| Stskeeps | so | 12:26 |
| murrayc | Corsac: That will not work. | 12:26 |
| Corsac | well, for some value of fun, maybe | 12:26 |
| Corsac | ha yes, forgot that | 12:26 |
| Corsac | hmhm, though the ABI is still armel, so the binaries should at least run? | 12:26 |
| Stskeeps | armv7 on a armv6 machine.. | 12:27 |
| lbt | for some definition of run that includes stationary | 12:28 |
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| RST38h | Sts: May run =) | 12:29 |
| Stskeeps | yes, may | 12:29 |
| Stskeeps | but also be crashable :P | 12:29 |
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| RST38h | well crashable =) | 12:29 |
| Corsac | well, it the abi is changed, whouldn't the arch be changed too? | 12:30 |
| Stskeeps | abi isn't changed, arch is | 12:30 |
| Stskeeps | it's still armel | 12:30 |
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| Stskeeps | arch as in armv5, armv6, armv7 .. etc | 12:30 |
| Corsac | I mean, one is supposed to be able to run _i386.deb stuff on an i386 nowadays (provided you can run the kernel) | 12:30 |
| Corsac | ok | 12:30 |
| RST38h | ABI and CPU architecture versions are different things | 12:31 |
| RST38h | armv7 vs armv5 is like Pentium vs i386 | 12:31 |
| RST38h | The code will mostly run until it hits a Pentium specific instruction where it will fail. | 12:32 |
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| Corsac | http://www.engadgetmobile.com/2009/05/15/nokia-launching-high-end-handset-with-capacitive-touchscreen-i/ could that be for the n9xx? | 12:37 |
| RST38h | No. | 12:38 |
| RST38h | The keyword is "handset". It will be an S60e5 device. | 12:38 |
| RST38h | An update to 5800 (supposedly named 5900) has been rumored, so that may be it | 12:38 |
| Jaffa | Corsac: the future tenses on "will adopt" also seem odd when Nokians have pre-production hardware already | 12:39 |
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| murrayc | Are there really no modest packages that I can apt-get install for the Beta SDK? | 12:42 |
| RST38h | apparently | 12:42 |
| murrayc | That's a strange definition of "released". | 12:42 |
| RST38h | gimme a moment | 12:43 |
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| RST38h | http://repository.maemo.org/pool/fremantle/free/m/modest/ | 12:43 |
| RST38h | murrayc: is this it? | 12:43 |
| murrayc | But "apt-get install modest" can't find it. | 12:43 |
| RST38h | have you got this repository in your config file? | 12:43 |
| murrayc | And I can't figure out any extra sources.list line to make that work. | 12:44 |
| RST38h | just wget + dpkg | 12:44 |
| murrayc | The Beta SDK has this by default: | 12:44 |
| murrayc | deb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/sdk free non-free | 12:44 |
| murrayc | deb-src http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/sdk free | 12:44 |
| murrayc | deb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/tools free non-free | 12:44 |
| murrayc | deb-src http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle/tools free | 12:44 |
| RST38h | Ah I see your problem | 12:44 |
| murrayc | I can never figure out those lines. | 12:44 |
| RST38h | Add deb http://repository.maemo.org/ fremantle free non-free | 12:44 |
| murrayc | I tried that. | 12:45 |
| RST38h | And the same for deb-src | 12:45 |
| murrayc | W: Couldn't stat source package list http://repository.maemo.org fremantle/free Packages (/var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_dists_fremantle_free_binary-i386_Packages) - stat (2 No such file or directory) | 12:45 |
| RST38h | then do apt-get update | 12:45 |
| murrayc | So I guess the Packages file is missing. | 12:45 |
| RST38h | a moment | 12:45 |
| murrayc | So it's maybe an orphaned .deb. | 12:45 |
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| RST38h | Ok, I have looked at it | 12:47 |
| RST38h | It looks like the Packages file has not been set up yet | 12:47 |
| murrayc | Yeah. I'll complain in a comment on the beta SDK announcement. So much of the stuff mentioned there just doesn't exist. | 12:48 |
| murrayc | Thanks for verifying that I'm not completely stupid. | 12:48 |
| RST38h | Just wget+dpkg for now | 12:48 |
| murrayc | I don't want to fuck up my target by doing that kind of thing. | 12:49 |
| murrayc | And it has dependencis that I'd have to mess around with too. | 12:49 |
| murrayc | (I developed some of the code for the Diablo version) | 12:49 |
| murrayc | So, yes, I could install it from git, but I am annoyed that it's not easy for regular people. | 12:50 |
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| RST38h | You will not fuck up your target | 12:50 |
| murrayc | Really, I can do that. | 12:50 |
| Myrtti | lock in target | 12:51 |
| murrayc | I'm that good. | 12:51 |
| RST38h | Do not install from git, install from that pool directory | 12:51 |
| RST38h | Just do it with dpkg - and it will work exactly the same as if you did it with apt-get | 12:51 |
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| RST38h | BTW, if you look at http://repository.maemo.org/dists/ you will see that all the maemo5 directories disallow browsing. My guess is that they do contain Packages files etc but these have references to internal stuff Nokia does not want us to see | 12:52 |
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| Corsac | Jaffa: so no way n9xx may have capacitive screen? | 13:30 |
| Stskeeps | i doubt it really | 13:31 |
| Stskeeps | especially with the two-finger thing | 13:31 |
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| Jaffa | The part number found in the kernel also is of a resistive screen. | 13:37 |
| Corsac | ok | 13:37 |
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| pacific | yo pples i need some help | 13:41 |
| Stskeeps | better to ask the question immediately instead of asking for help | 13:41 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:41 |
| pacific | my torrents on niiiiiiiiiiit dont work | 13:42 |
| pacific | im usin transmission | 13:42 |
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| mikkov_ | that's not a question :) | 13:43 |
| mikkov_ | X-Fade: ping | 13:44 |
| Jaffa | mikkov_: I've had an X-Fade ping outstanding since 09:57, so it might time out ;-) | 13:45 |
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| jeremiah | Stskeeps: Did you see I signed up for some Mer hacking while in CPH? | 13:51 |
| jeremiah | :P | 13:51 |
| Stskeeps | yeah - sounds great :) | 13:52 |
| jeremiah | I look forward to it. | 13:52 |
| Stskeeps | we'll be a nice cluster, me, you, johnx, rm_you, lbt, claudius | 13:54 |
| jeremiah | Yeah, starting to get critical mass. | 13:54 |
| Stskeeps | yeah.. a lot of technical preparations to be done before that - i'm glad we got OBS up and going | 13:56 |
| Stskeeps | will make things a hell lot easier | 13:56 |
| * Jaffa sad to be missing it :( | 13:56 | |
| Stskeeps | better come for the summit then :P | 13:56 |
| RST38h | he won't have a choice being the debmaster :) | 13:57 |
| * Stskeeps glances at his presentation notes | 13:58 | |
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| jeremiah | I am going to start replacing *@debian.org email addresses in packages since I doubt debian devs are uploading to maemo | 14:00 |
| Stskeeps | some might :P | 14:01 |
| jeremiah | qgil: Can we also make sure that Nokia packagers also follow the Maemo packaging policy and place the _real_ email address of the packager. | 14:01 |
| jeremiah | Stskeeps: Yeah, some might, and I know a couple - but this package, OpenCDK is group maintained. | 14:01 |
| jeremiah | And the control file is identical. | 14:01 |
| jeremiah | with upstream | 14:02 |
| jeremiah | So, I am a bit suspicious here. | 14:02 |
| Stskeeps | *nod* | 14:02 |
| biiter_ | ShadowJK: thx | 14:02 |
| Jaffa | jeremiah: Isn't that what Uploader is for? | 14:02 |
| Jaffa | The package *is* maintained by *@debian.org, but someone has uploaded it to another repo with no changes. | 14:02 |
| Stskeeps | i wonder how many extras packages there are that are no-changes | 14:03 |
| jeremiah | Jaffa: "Uploader" is actually a debian package field | 14:03 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: Mostly the command line stuff - certainly the exception rather than the rule | 14:03 |
| jeremiah | It denotes who uploaded the package into a VCS - not to debian (at least in the case of debian-perl) | 14:04 |
| Jaffa | jeremiah: Doesn't Ubuntu use it for who uploaded it to the repo (I've never seen a documented definition of its use before) | 14:04 |
| * Jaffa is coming at this from a position of little knowledge; not one of trying to convince you I'm right, btw ;-) | 14:05 | |
| jeremiah | I'm not sure what Ubuntu does actually - I should find out, but debian uses it to give credit to whomever did the packaging, not who uploaded it. :/ | 14:05 |
| Corsac | Uploaders: are the people authorized to be in the changelog line, more or less. If you aren't in Uploaders: and still do that, that's an NMU | 14:05 |
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| Jaffa | Corsac: NMU? | 14:06 |
| Corsac | non-maintainer-upload | 14:06 |
| Jaffa | Right. | 14:06 |
| jeremiah | An NMU is when some else than the package maintainer uploads a package | 14:06 |
| Corsac | yes | 14:06 |
| jeremiah | So for bug fixes or when the original maintainer is MIA | 14:06 |
| Jaffa | Where "upload" here is "put in repo"? | 14:07 |
| jeremiah | It is considered bad form in debian to do NMU | 14:07 |
| Corsac | depends | 14:07 |
| Corsac | it's ok to do nmu fixing bugs | 14:07 |
| jeremiah | Jaffa: Unfortunately, it is not really clear. | 14:07 |
| Corsac | rc ones | 14:07 |
| jeremiah | It is a mess, actually. | 14:07 |
| Jaffa | jeremiah: Right. | 14:07 |
| jeremiah | :/ | 14:07 |
| Corsac | it's perfectly clear, upload means upload to debian ftp archive | 14:07 |
| _berto_ | jeremiah: ubuntu has Maintainer: and Original-Maintainer: for packages moved from debian | 14:07 |
| Jaffa | Can we not slavishly copy it then? :) | 14:07 |
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| jeremiah | Corsac: Not at all. | 14:07 |
| Corsac | :> | 14:07 |
| Corsac | mhmh? | 14:07 |
| jeremiah | If you look at my packages in debian, you will see I am in the uploader field | 14:08 |
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| Jaffa | Cos I'm guessing Ubuntu has faced many of the packaging issues from Debian upstream that Maemo also does | 14:08 |
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| jeremiah | But I am not a DD and cannot upload to debian | 14:08 |
| jeremiah | So I "upload" to the svn repo, and a DD uploads to debian | 14:08 |
| _berto_ | jeremiah: what's the uploader field ? | 14:08 |
| Corsac | well, if you are a DM and DM_Allowed:yes is present, you could :) | 14:08 |
| Corsac | but basically you can be the one doing the change and have it sponsored | 14:09 |
| jeremiah | _berto_: It is a field that denotes that you brought software into debian's repos, but not into their mirrors. | 14:09 |
| _berto_ | jeremiah: there's mentors.debian.net for maintainers to put their packages so DD can upload them | 14:09 |
| Corsac | jeremiah: btw, DD I am | 14:09 |
| jeremiah | Corsac: What is important to note is, uploaders often are not DDs so they don't really "upload" to debian | 14:09 |
| Jaffa | "upload" as equivalent to "put in VCS" seems very counter-intuitive to me (put debian/control in VCS or the source or the whole source package?) | 14:09 |
| jeremiah | Jaffa: Exactlyl. | 14:09 |
| jeremiah | Or exactly even. | 14:09 |
| Corsac | basically Uploaders are people who have the right to do changes to the packages. Maintainer was more adapted but already taken | 14:10 |
| Corsac | Maintainer: wasn't adapted to team-maintainance | 14:10 |
| _berto_ | jeremiah: i've never seen that field, where is it ? | 14:10 |
| jeremiah | _berto_: In the control file | 14:10 |
| jeremiah | not every package has it | 14:10 |
| jeremiah | It is usually used when you have group maintenance of packages | 14:11 |
| jeremiah | Like in the debian python or debian perl group | 14:11 |
| _berto_ | ah okay | 14:11 |
| jeremiah | So that way, the person who made the package gets credit for doing the work as "uploader" and the Maintainer field, which receives bug reports, etc. gets kept for the group | 14:11 |
| Corsac | though you could have an Uploader: field for package not maintained in vcs, but that would make a quite hard workflow | 14:11 |
| Corsac | basically, the person listed in the changelog file for that entry is the people taking responsibilty for the upload, even if he can't upload directly and have to ask someone else | 14:12 |
| jeremiah | Jaffa: Maybe we can get rid of it - the policy says nothing about it. | 14:13 |
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| Jaffa | I think my point is that given the confusion around here, there's scope for jeremiah to start discussions on maemo-developers for a sensible usage for Maemo, that some packages (although mostly CLI stuff) will be ported with no change from Debian; and that the person who maintains a package in Maemo is - very typically - also the person who does the development (few people taking upstream tarballs and doing a *lot* of packaging effort and not coding effort) | 14:13 |
| jeremiah | What I would really, really like though is for people to put their _real_ email address in the maintainer field so we can contact them if there is a problem, like now with diablo -> fremantle. | 14:14 |
| jeremiah | (Jaffa)++ | 14:14 |
| Corsac | definitely | 14:14 |
| * Jaffa would say "*a* field" ;-) | 14:14 | |
| Jaffa | jeremiah: For the current problem, can you get hold of the original auto-builder/upload logs? | 14:15 |
| jeremiah | Jaffa: Yeah, I can. | 14:15 |
| jeremiah | Just a lot of grepping. :) | 14:15 |
| Jaffa | Those tie up with maemo.org accounts andbingo. | 14:15 |
| Jaffa | Cool | 14:15 |
| Corsac | http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-controlfields.html#s-f-Maintainer might help | 14:15 |
| jeremiah | Corsac: Good link. | 14:15 |
| jeremiah | The maemo policy, which is a pdf so I won't link, says: | 14:16 |
| jeremiah | "If an upstream package is modified for maemo, the Maintainer field MUST be change from the original." | 14:17 |
| jeremiah | And the typo was min. | 14:17 |
| jeremiah | e | 14:17 |
| Jaffa | So, yesterday when I uploaded netkit-telnet-0.17_36 (or somesuch) straight from Debian, that was fine. But when I changed the Section and added XB-Maemo-Icon-26, I changed the Maintainer and the version. | 14:18 |
| jeremiah | Jaffa: Perfect. | 14:18 |
| jeremiah | I wish everyone would do that. :) | 14:18 |
| jeremiah | Oooops. Looks like I am spamming the fremantle builder. =) | 14:19 |
| Jaffa | But if there was a problem with the former, the Maintainer would still be @debian.org - even though that's valid. | 14:19 |
| Jaffa | But then, saying, "add an Uploader" (or similar) changes the package; so the Maintainer has to change. | 14:19 |
| jeremiah | Jaffa: Oh yeah, that has to get changed actually. | 14:19 |
| Jaffa | Damn. | 14:19 |
| lardman | morning all | 14:19 |
| jeremiah | Hell lardster. | 14:19 |
| Jaffa | Two more links: https://wiki.edubuntu.org/Debian/ForUbuntuDevelopers#Required%20packaging%20changes and https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2008-April/025325.html | 14:20 |
| lardman | hey jeremiah | 14:20 |
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| jeremiah | One needs to replace the Maintainer with the Maemo maintainer - and you can chose to create a XSBC-Original-Maintainer field for the debian field | 14:20 |
| mikkov_ | jeremiah: I hope that you wouldn't upload any of my user/* packages to fremantle | 14:22 |
| jeremiah | mikkov_: Can you tell me what they are - I thought I was supposed to upload as much as possible | 14:23 |
| mikkov_ | jeremiah: well I can't remember them all :) but for instance openlierox which is in build queue. | 14:24 |
| mikkov_ | jeremiah: actuallu most of them won't build with fremantle, so actually it shouldn't be a problem | 14:25 |
| Stskeeps | jeremiah: wasn't it more along lines of testing if it works and get back to developers? | 14:25 |
| jeremiah | Stskeeps: Yeah, it was kinda like that. But setting up the build system somewhere else is non-trivial. | 14:26 |
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| Jaffa | jeremiah: That sounds like a good plan (XSBC-Original-Maintainer) | 14:28 |
| * Jaffa needs to make sure mud doesn't allow creating naughty packages, but makes it easy to take upstream and republish. | 14:28 | |
| Jaffa | Or tarballs, or whatever. | 14:28 |
| * RST38h requests that the number of necessary fields be minimized and, more importantly, the number of necessary package config files be minimized | 14:28 | |
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| RST38h | So that I do not need to jump all over control, changes, files, etc every time I do a release | 14:29 |
| jeremiah | RST38h: Absolutely. Note that XSBC-* is optional. | 14:29 |
| mikkov_ | Jaffa: according to policy netkit-telnet should have had version | 14:30 |
| jeremiah | But not changing the Maintainer will be a QA failure, a la lintian error. | 14:30 |
| mikkov_ | Jaffa: 0.17-36maemo2 | 14:30 |
| Jaffa | mikkov_: "had version"? | 14:30 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: Actually, I would rather add these fields to control than add them to other files | 14:30 |
| Jaffa | mikkov_: True - I was rushing. | 14:30 |
| jeremiah | RST38h: That is where they are. | 14:31 |
| RST38h | jeremiah: like changes (it also needs email address) | 14:31 |
| * Jaffa is planning on making mud do that for me automatically - but hasn't yet. | 14:31 | |
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| jeremiah | RST38h: Changing the format of the changelog and other debian files leads to cataostrophic problems in apt and the apt toolchain. | 14:39 |
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| Corsac | yeah, that's not really something you want to do :) | 14:42 |
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| timeless_mbp | hi jeremiah | 14:55 |
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| lbt | hmm, very interesting backlog... thanks jeremiah, Corsac and the rest... I need to address lots of this in Mer too. | 14:59 |
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| Corsac | no problem | 15:02 |
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| lbt | and you're on my goto list for packaging advice now ;) | 15:06 |
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| qgil | jeremiah: http://blog.jeremiahfoster.com/?p=113 is good! | 15:17 |
| qgil | now... what about putting that content in http://wiki.maemo.org in a please where your target audience will probably look at the future. :) | 15:18 |
| qgil | in a place | 15:18 |
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| rkirti | sorry for an extremely noobish question, but what exactly is a FIASCO image ? | 15:25 |
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| StsN800 | rkirti, nokia's firmware format for tablets | 15:26 |
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| StsN800 | hey wazd | 15:27 |
| rkirti | StsN800: ok | 15:28 |
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| lcuk | lbt, \o i gather you have seen the qt-kinetic posting on itt, since you have qt working nicely, wanna get the examples built and running so we can see and feel and give proper feedback to the guys? http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=28993 | 15:34 |
| * lcuk likes the look of the flickr viewer | 15:36 | |
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| fiferboy | lbt: Hey, how's it going? | 15:49 |
| * RST38h yawns then moos | 15:49 | |
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| jeremiah | qgil: Yeah - I will do that. :) | 15:57 |
| AStorm | hello | 15:58 |
| AStorm | could someone nice build us python2.5-pyprocessing package? | 15:58 |
| AStorm | http://pyprocessing.berlios.de/ - and probably has an Ubuntu and Debian packages | 15:59 |
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| AStorm | hello? | 16:04 |
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| AStorm | or has everyone switched to Mer already? :> | 16:04 |
| RST38h | No, we are all running WinCE | 16:05 |
| RST38h | With nice C# scripting builtin! | 16:05 |
| AStorm | http://packages.debian.org/lenny/python-processing | 16:06 |
| AStorm | so there is a package | 16:06 |
| AStorm | now I need someone to submit it to a buildbot | 16:06 |
| lbt | AStorm: Mer buildbot? | 16:07 |
| AStorm | oh, it requires ctypes... that has to be done too | 16:07 |
| AStorm | no, Maemo one | 16:07 |
| AStorm | Mer has it already (Ubuntu has that) | 16:07 |
| AStorm | and Mer has Python 2.6 too | 16:07 |
| lbt | 'k | 16:07 |
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| lbt | FYI Ubuntu seems to have python problems ... I hear lots of gnashing of teeth | 16:08 |
| lbt | but you may know that already :) | 16:08 |
| AStorm | not enough to cause me grief | 16:08 |
| AStorm | :) | 16:08 |
| AStorm | still, I need these in Maemo too :) | 16:08 |
| lbt | lcuk: why not | 16:09 |
| lbt | fiferboy: hi | 16:09 |
| lcuk | excellent :) | 16:09 |
| lbt | fiferboy: it's a pain in the finger! | 16:09 |
| fiferboy | lbt: How is it working? | 16:09 |
| lbt | meh... mainly OK but some sign/maths issues | 16:10 |
| fiferboy | Anything I could look in on? | 16:10 |
| lbt | lcuk: they appear to be commercial | 16:11 |
| lbt | fiferboy: I can send you the cpp | 16:11 |
| AStorm | http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/python-multiprocessing - this would be even better | 16:11 |
| fiferboy | Sure | 16:11 |
| AStorm | (same package, but a backport) | 16:11 |
| lcuk | lbt? ocmmercial in what way | 16:12 |
| lcuk | as in you cant use them on maemo>? | 16:12 |
| AStorm | ;-( no one to help my case? | 16:13 |
| lbt | I found a 'buy now' link for @web and stopped looking | 16:13 |
| lcuk | not those :$ sorry the first link gives a few example things | 16:13 |
| lcuk | like a flickr viewer | 16:13 |
| lbt | AStorm: Maemo is dead, long live Mer.... | 16:13 |
| lcuk | and a recipe list | 16:13 |
| * lbt ducks | 16:13 | |
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| AStorm | lbt, yeah yeah | 16:13 |
| AStorm | but I have to support both! | 16:13 |
| lcuk | jeremiah, would you kindly give AStorm some advice about his package :) | 16:13 |
| AStorm | (and stationary machines too) | 16:13 |
| lcuk | bbl | 16:14 |
| AStorm | jeremiah, I don't have the build env on me | 16:14 |
| lbt | AStorm: don't you need to have an extras project for it? | 16:14 |
| Jaffa | Aren't the PyMaemo packages so wildly different to Debian/Ubuntu that sorting out the Depends line will be "fun" | 16:14 |
| Jaffa | lbt: no, anything can be put in the auto-builder/extras without a garage project. Garage is a hosting service entirely separate to extras | 16:15 |
| AStorm | Jaffa, it won't, as ctypes has no deps | 16:15 |
| AStorm | and multiprocessing deps only on ctypes | 16:15 |
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| AStorm | so these go like any python packages for Maemo | 16:15 |
| AStorm | although.. I don't know how to package them | 16:16 |
| AStorm | :) | 16:16 |
| lopz | hola | 16:16 |
| lbt | fiferboy: broken src incoming | 16:17 |
| fiferboy | Do you have an idea about where the problem is? | 16:17 |
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| jeremiah | lcuk: I certainly would. :) | 16:18 |
| mikkov_ | Jaffa: PyMaemo for Fremantle is following debian packaging. For diablo it was completely different | 16:18 |
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| lbt | vel1.ry() = ( | 16:19 |
| lbt | (((vel.ry() >0 ) | 16:19 |
| lbt | ? vsb->maximum() | 16:19 |
| lbt | : vsb->minimum() | 16:19 |
| lbt | ) - scrollBase.ry()) / scrollFactor.y() + curr.y())/braking_cycles; | 16:19 |
| fiferboy | Okay, so that is overshoot decel | 16:20 |
| lbt | > or < and should I be + or - scrollBase and is it the same for top/bottom | 16:20 |
| lbt | and I should be able to do simple algebra | 16:20 |
| lbt | and it's embarassing! | 16:20 |
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| lbt | circa line 1580 | 16:21 |
| fiferboy | Sometimes I rush through things like that, and when it is wrong try flipping a sign and making it more wrong | 16:22 |
| jeremiah | AStorm: So, if I understand it, you want Ctypes packaged for Maemo? | 16:22 |
| fiferboy | It's hard to start over and look at it objectively when you think you are close and a little change could fix everything | 16:22 |
| lbt | yeah... done that... the list scrolls off the screen and vanishes | 16:22 |
| lbt | did that too... but it was late last night and bed caught up with me... | 16:23 |
| AStorm | jeremiah, that and multiprocessing (Debian squeeze has a backport) | 16:23 |
| lbt | it's much saner now | 16:23 |
| fiferboy | could it be this line: if (vel1.ry() < 1.0 and vel1.ry() > -1.0) | 16:23 |
| fiferboy | Should be or? | 16:23 |
| lbt | no... that just makes sure we're close to 0 | 16:23 |
| lbt | i -1 < vel < 1 | 16:24 |
| jeremiah | AStorm: It looks like Ctype is provided by python | 16:24 |
| lbt | if so then we're stopped | 16:24 |
| fiferboy | Right, I'm not thinking well yet | 16:24 |
| lbt | (d'uh) | 16:24 |
| jeremiah | AStorm: How do you know it is missing in maemo? | 16:24 |
| lbt | and the cartoon elastic kicks it | 16:24 |
| AStorm | jeremiah, mhm, then it's not needed :) | 16:24 |
| lbt | but it's real elastic | 16:24 |
| AStorm | thus, only multiprocessing | 16:24 |
| lbt | so it gives an instant kick and then constant velocity!! | 16:25 |
| AStorm | it has some funny libjs-iquery dep | 16:25 |
| jeremiah | I'll check the package in Squeeze. | 16:25 |
| AStorm | *libjs-jquery | 16:25 |
| jeremiah | libjs-iquery, oy. | 16:25 |
| AStorm | http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/python-multiprocessing | 16:25 |
| jeremiah | That will have lots of dependencies itself I'll bet | 16:25 |
| AStorm | no, it doesn't | 16:25 |
| jeremiah | Ah good | 16:25 |
| AStorm | (except the javascript-common) | 16:25 |
| AStorm | oh, even that isn't a dep, just recommended | 16:26 |
| jeremiah | Why does a multithreading library rely on a Javascript web library? | 16:27 |
| jeremiah | Very weird | 16:27 |
| AStorm | probably XDR | 16:27 |
| AStorm | (which is in Python 2.6, but not 2.5) | 16:27 |
| AStorm | or some event system | 16:27 |
| AStorm | weird anyway, esp. that: | 16:27 |
| fiferboy | I understand why you are using the ry() function for the assignment, but why use it elsewhere when you are just getting the value? | 16:27 |
| AStorm | http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/python-processing | 16:27 |
| AStorm | doesn't have that dep | 16:28 |
| AStorm | and it's almost the same lib | 16:28 |
| fiferboy | lbt: Oops, I should have references you on the last one, it will get lost in here | 16:28 |
| AStorm | (older version, actually) | 16:28 |
| lbt | it did | 16:28 |
| jeremiah | AStorm: Ah - so I might try to package the python-processing from Squeeze then. :) | 16:29 |
| lbt | AFAIUI the ref based one is faster as the compiler essentially just uses a pointer and does no function calling.... | 16:29 |
| AStorm | jeremiah, I'd prefer multiprocessing, but any will do | 16:29 |
| lbt | and cut'n'paste habit | 16:29 |
| fiferboy | lbt: Is the function printing the debug info properly? | 16:30 |
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| lbt | yes | 16:30 |
| lbt | 1 sec | 16:31 |
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| andrewfblack | Hello | 16:32 |
| lbt | it's going back too far | 16:32 |
| RST38h | hello andrew! how is minimalist2 doing? | 16:34 |
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| andrewfblack | I've been fighting my last bug for 2 days | 16:35 |
| jeremiah | I'll package python-processing :) Perhaps you can try to package multiprocessing? Packaging python apps is not hard, and having me package and maintain everything in maemo does not scale well. :P | 16:35 |
| fiferboy | lbt: The function is moving in the correct direction, but going too far? | 16:35 |
| lbt | yeah I need to calc how overshot are we in pixels | 16:35 |
| RST38h | andrew: anything that can use external help? | 16:36 |
| AStorm | jeremiah, I probably should - this means I'd have to set up a VM for Maemo scratchbox | 16:36 |
| AStorm | what was that URL? | 16:36 |
| AStorm | and I don't have access rights to post it | 16:37 |
| andrewfblack | well i'm having trouble with the thanks showing up twice on a post and using alot of space. I considered removing thanks and releasing now then adding thanks back later, You would be able to thank someone just not see who thanked on a post. | 16:38 |
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| RST38h | andrew: it really sounds quite acceptable to me, the thanks feature is nice but minor | 16:41 |
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| fiferboy | lbt: Do VMAX and DECEL_DURATION not cancel each other out? | 17:07 |
| lbt | line? | 17:08 |
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| fiferboy | 1327 and 1328 | 17:08 |
| lbt | the definitions? | 17:08 |
| lbt | vmax is max speed | 17:08 |
| lbt | decel_duration is in milliseconds | 17:08 |
| fiferboy | Yes. Are you ever going to reach DECEL_DURATION now that you have VMAX? | 17:09 |
| AStorm | :-( no jeremiah | 17:09 |
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| lbt | so normal 'friction | 17:09 |
| fiferboy | I must misunderstand what DECEL_DURATION is doing | 17:09 |
| lbt | lasts for 1.5seconds | 17:09 |
| AStorm | and I'm fairly pressed for time on that (only a day or two at best) | 17:09 |
| lbt | or until the deceleration hits 0 | 17:09 |
| fiferboy | lbt: What happens after 1.5 seconds? | 17:09 |
| lbt | s/decel/velocity | 17:09 |
| lbt | it stops | 17:09 |
| lbt | dead | 17:09 |
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| lbt | its more a safety thing from before I had vmax :) | 17:10 |
| fiferboy | But with VMAX and deceleration you should stop after a certain time anyway, I assume less than 1.5 | 17:10 |
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| fiferboy | If it is more than 1.5 then DECEL_DURATION is just cutting off the movement | 17:10 |
| lbt | yes | 17:10 |
| lbt | now we have vmax the DECEL_DURATION isn't really needed | 17:11 |
| fiferboy | Right | 17:11 |
| lbt | good catch for optimising though | 17:11 |
| fiferboy | Glad I could do something. I don't understand your scrolling math enough to help with the overshoot problem | 17:11 |
| lbt | :( | 17:12 |
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| crashanddie_ | spl: ;) | 17:12 |
| lbt | essentially you have pixel values (curr and vel) | 17:12 |
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| lbt | and the scrollbar has a range value which is not 1:1 pixels | 17:13 |
| lbt | so scrollFactor converts | 17:13 |
| fiferboy | Right. | 17:13 |
| lbt | delta_px to delta_range only though | 17:13 |
| fiferboy | So each step of the scrollbar is X pixels? | 17:13 |
| lbt | so then there is a base offset for both px and range | 17:14 |
| lbt | yes or 0.X | 17:14 |
| fiferboy | Okay. | 17:14 |
| lbt | hence floating point value too | 17:14 |
| fiferboy | QPointF. Got it. | 17:14 |
| AStorm | lbt, so, you're overshooting because conversion is not exact | 17:15 |
| lbt | no | 17:15 |
| lbt | it's a gui 'effect' | 17:15 |
| AStorm | how much? | 17:15 |
| lbt | 'cos fremantle does it | 17:15 |
| AStorm | ah | 17:15 |
| lbt | it's kinetic scroll | 17:15 |
| AStorm | hopefully toggleable | 17:15 |
| lbt | yeah ;) | 17:16 |
| AStorm | I know it's kinetic | 17:16 |
| * lbt isn't sold but it looks nice | 17:16 | |
| fiferboy | So with overshoot you have the velocity when it hits the end of the list | 17:16 |
| AStorm | is less useful though than nice-looking | 17:16 |
| lbt | yes | 17:16 |
| fiferboy | How are you making the list scroll past it's limits? | 17:16 |
| lbt | commented out the bounds check ;) | 17:16 |
| lbt | in the core | 17:16 |
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| AStorm | the question is - what kind of deceleration do you want? | 17:17 |
| fiferboy | lbt: Whoa, that's hardcore! | 17:17 |
| lbt | factor/timestep | 17:17 |
| AStorm | constant? linear? quadratic? | 17:17 |
| AStorm | linear this is. | 17:17 |
| AStorm | :) | 17:17 |
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| lbt | is it? | 17:17 |
| lbt | velocity halves per 0.1 seconds | 17:17 |
| AStorm | sure, dv/dt = const | 17:17 |
| lbt | non-linear | 17:18 |
| lbt | factor, not value | 17:18 |
| AStorm | ah, so you have constant deceleration | 17:18 |
| lbt | like gravity | 17:18 |
| fiferboy | Well, I assume it is there for some reason. Mostly for programs that don't check the bounds before trying to set the values. | 17:18 |
| AStorm | so velocity is square root | 17:18 |
| lbt | fiferboy: we'll do better | 17:18 |
| AStorm | lbt, mhm, though I prefer sharper than that | 17:18 |
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| AStorm | maybe use log? | 17:18 |
| lbt | actually I use 0.75 | 17:19 |
| fiferboy | Where do you comment the bounds check? | 17:19 |
| lbt | AStorm: integer math? | 17:19 |
| lbt | (mainly) | 17:19 |
| AStorm | so v /= e^nslice | 17:19 |
| lbt | qabstractslider | 17:19 |
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| lbt | vel1.rx() = (vel1.rx()*DECEL_PC)/100; | 17:20 |
| fiferboy | Maybe instead of commenting it out, put in another function that doesn't have a bounds check? | 17:20 |
| lbt | fiferboy: I will, and in fact may shortcut it out to use _hs_slide | 17:21 |
| fiferboy | I'm just looking at qabstractslider source | 17:21 |
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| AStorm | lbt, why not v *= e^-dt ? | 17:21 |
| AStorm | exp is in math lib | 17:21 |
| fiferboy | You do it in the setValue functions? | 17:22 |
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| lbt | AStorm: simple approach 1st.... and it's pretty nice.... nb what's the equation for friction? | 17:22 |
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| lbt | fiferboy: yes | 17:23 |
| AStorm | friction? that's "a force" | 17:23 |
| AStorm | F = m*a | 17:23 |
| fiferboy | I see it, value=d->bound(value) | 17:23 |
| AStorm | v = 0.5 * a*t^2 | 17:23 |
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| AStorm | k * v / t^2 | 17:25 |
| fiferboy | lbt: So in the code in question you have overshot and the velocity is close to 0, this is where you have to scroll back to the limit? | 17:25 |
| AStorm | obviously, you need some epsilon to stop | 17:26 |
| lbt | yes | 17:26 |
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| Stskeeps | lardman|afk: http://www.jiongtang.com/blog/html/digital-product/smartq7-unboxing.html btw | 17:27 |
| fiferboy | lbt: So what is it you are setting vel1.ry to? | 17:27 |
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| AStorm | also, what is the timeslice? :) | 17:28 |
| lbt | 50 ms | 17:28 |
| AStorm | because the starting velocity is measured over a timeslice | 17:28 |
| AStorm | that's too slow for decel, but decent for measuring | 17:29 |
| lbt | http://pastebin.com/d40de85cf | 17:29 |
| lbt | current code ^^ | 17:29 |
| fiferboy | (sbMax.y() - scrollBase.ry()/scrollFactor.y()+curr.y())/braking_cycles | 17:29 |
| AStorm | at least, I think so | 17:29 |
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| lbt | fiferboy: now, I cheat here | 17:29 |
| AStorm | you'll need, say, 2 timeslices to measure vstart | 17:29 |
| lbt | and the rebound is linear velocity | 17:29 |
| lbt | AStorm: done in the fingerscroll moveEvent code | 17:30 |
| AStorm | mhm | 17:30 |
| fiferboy | lbt: Is the new code closer to working? | 17:30 |
| AStorm | then, on each timeslice, just apply the equation | 17:30 |
| lbt | should be | 17:30 |
| fiferboy | Compiling? | 17:30 |
| lbt | 279 on that pastebin AStorm | 17:31 |
| lbt | actually it's on the tablet but I'm chatting... | 17:31 |
| AStorm | lbt, missed it? | 17:31 |
| lbt | http://pastebin.com/d40de85cf | 17:32 |
| lbt | need to go back to 0 from -29 ScrollFactor 1 so -251 px for 7 iterations | 17:32 |
| lbt | yeah, that's sounds wrong... | 17:33 |
| AStorm | rx *= 1/2 * k | 17:33 |
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| AStorm | or 1/2 * 1/k - for speed factor as opposed to slowness | 17:34 |
| lbt | AStorm: what would you replace line 279 with ? | 17:34 |
| fiferboy | lbt: Do 0 and -29 seem right? | 17:35 |
| AStorm | ry = ry / 2 * somefactor | 17:35 |
| lbt | that's the same code | 17:35 |
| AStorm | then curr.y += ry | 17:35 |
| AStorm | no, you're not changing velocity | 17:36 |
| AStorm | which is wrong - it has to halve | 17:36 |
| lbt | 283 | 17:36 |
| lbt | OVERSHOOT_DECEL_PC is 0.5 * somefactor | 17:37 |
| AStorm | ugh | 17:37 |
| lbt | ugh? | 17:37 |
| lbt | it's the same maths | 17:37 |
| AStorm | I see what you mean | 17:37 |
| AStorm | how is vell.y and vell.ry related? | 17:37 |
| lbt | originally I had the 100 in there to avoid integer maths results of 0.4 -> 0 | 17:38 |
| lbt | same value | 17:38 |
| lbt | literally | 17:38 |
| lbt | ry is a reference to y | 17:38 |
| lbt | allows private data to be directly modified | 17:38 |
| lbt | fiferboy: yes, 0 and 29 are spot on | 17:39 |
| lbt | -29 | 17:39 |
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| AStorm | I take it that ry is actually dy - delta? | 17:40 |
| AStorm | dy = delta y I mean :) | 17:40 |
| AStorm | so it's then that vell.y() is to halve | 17:40 |
| AStorm | not vell.ry which is the delta | 17:40 |
| AStorm | delta would be constant 1/2 * somefactor | 17:40 |
| AStorm | :) | 17:40 |
| AStorm | ok | 17:40 |
| lbt | no | 17:40 |
| lbt | vel is a QPoint object | 17:40 |
| lbt | holding x and y | 17:40 |
| fiferboy | So, shouldn't it be "need to go back to 0 from -29 ScrollFactor 1 so (scrollBase.ry() + curr.y() * scrollFactor.y()) px for 7 iterations | 17:40 |
| lbt | yes... but I'm chatting again | 17:40 |
| lbt | heh | 17:41 |
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| AStorm | hmmh | 17:41 |
| Macer | i am watching a movie called conspiracy about the nazi meeting about the final solution | 17:41 |
| AStorm | so do calculate actual velocity, that is dx | 17:41 |
| AStorm | and dy | 17:41 |
| AStorm | and not cheat | 17:41 |
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| AStorm | then halve that and add to curr.y | 17:42 |
| Macer | and one of the actors is jewish :) | 17:42 |
| lbt | no need | 17:42 |
| AStorm | (after multiplying by the scale factor) | 17:42 |
| lbt | and anyway | 17:42 |
| lbt | working at pixel level loses accuracy | 17:42 |
| lbt | and you get nasties | 17:42 |
| AStorm | sure it does, but dx is not in whole pixels | 17:43 |
| lbt | I should have said vel is a QPointF object (float) so that keeps things honest | 17:43 |
| AStorm | again, what is vel. velocity? so vel.x is dx? | 17:44 |
| lbt | no vel is velocity vector | 17:44 |
| lbt | vel.x is x component | 17:44 |
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| AStorm | ... | 17:45 |
| AStorm | so vel.x is dx, you. | 17:45 |
| AStorm | KINETIC_REFRESH/VSCALE | 17:46 |
| AStorm | I know what is VSCALE - but kinetic refresh? | 17:46 |
| AStorm | is it dt? | 17:47 |
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| * Stskeeps is kinda impressed | 17:49 | |
| RST38h | Makesyour download go faster if you continue circling the screen with your finger? | 17:49 |
| Stskeeps | the public services with digital signature etc and so on work on ubuntu | 17:49 |
| AStorm | RST38h, looks like it, I don't know what this crud is | 17:49 |
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| AStorm | the screen should be refreshed every some ms | 17:50 |
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| AStorm | e.g. 50 ms | 17:50 |
| lbt | vel.x is x component | 17:50 |
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| lbt | sorry wrong window | 17:50 |
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| lbt | AStorm: yes | 17:51 |
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| AStorm | but then, you need to calculate delta for that time, so vel.x = (cur.x-old.x)/TIMESLICE | 17:51 |
| AStorm | assuming you measure over one timeslice | 17:51 |
| lbt | I'm not calculating vel | 17:51 |
| AStorm | ? | 17:51 |
| lbt | I'm calculating dx using vel | 17:51 |
| AStorm | wth? | 17:51 |
| AStorm | no, you have to compute starting velocity somehow | 17:52 |
| lbt | this is overshoot? | 17:52 |
| lbt | we know start velocity | 17:52 |
| AStorm | do don't | 17:52 |
| lbt | line 190 ish | 17:52 |
| AStorm | *you don't | 17:52 |
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| lbt | we also calculate it twice | 17:53 |
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| lbt | to avoid some glitches in mouse events being duplicated on some systems | 17:53 |
| AStorm | I see *VSCALE there | 17:53 |
| AStorm | why? | 17:53 |
| lbt | const int QAbstractScrollAreaPrivateScroller::VSCALE = 100; // velocity scaling to ensure not lost in int rounding | 17:53 |
| AStorm | mhm, ok | 17:54 |
| AStorm | last - curr = FAIL | 17:54 |
| AStorm | curr - last | 17:54 |
| AStorm | wrong direction | 17:54 |
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| AStorm | again, what is KINETIC_REFRESH | 17:56 |
| AStorm | think about it | 17:57 |
| lbt | hmm, good point... I had something on this way back... it's because the scrollbars are inverted IIRC | 17:57 |
| AStorm | why do you multiply by it | 17:57 |
| lbt | timeslice | 17:57 |
| AStorm | yes, but your speed is in pixels | 17:57 |
| AStorm | not pixels/second | 17:58 |
| lbt | that's not a speed | 17:58 |
| AStorm | actually, pixels/ms | 17:58 |
| AStorm | or whatever your dt base unit is | 17:58 |
| AStorm | is cur_time Unix timestamp? | 17:59 |
| AStorm | event_time.elapsed() - what's the unit? | 17:59 |
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| AStorm | OVERSHOOT_DECEL_PC should be 50 | 18:01 |
| lbt | I think you could really help point out inconsistencies in the code... it may be worth reading through it a bit to get the structure and find where some of the points you raise are commented... Then I'd really appreciate patches, comments or suggestions :) | 18:02 |
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| AStorm | or if you really want it accurate, then - | 18:02 |
| lbt | I do | 18:02 |
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| lbt | but I'm very close to it | 18:03 |
| lbt | an independent review would help | 18:03 |
| AStorm | DECEL_PC/100 / 2 | 18:03 |
| AStorm | the whole value | 18:03 |
| AStorm | the default should be halving the speed | 18:03 |
| RST38h | What program are you all looking at anyway??? | 18:03 |
| lbt | http://pastebin.com/d40de85cf | 18:03 |
| RST38h | What is all this kinetic stuff? | 18:03 |
| AStorm | now, the factor is slowness factor | 18:03 |
| fiferboy | RST38h: Qt finger scrolling | 18:04 |
| lbt | RST38h: extension to qAbstractScrollArea to allow fingerscroll + fremantle bounce | 18:04 |
| AStorm | or rather, 0.5 * (DECEL_PC/100) | 18:04 |
| AStorm | then rounded to int | 18:04 |
| fiferboy | David has implemented it in such a way that all Qt programs running in Hildon automatically take advantage of it | 18:04 |
| RST38h | Ah, cool | 18:04 |
| lbt | to get it accepted it needs to be minimal and efficient | 18:05 |
| AStorm | if necessary, do 5 * DECEL_PC/100 / 10 | 18:05 |
| lbt | so whilst true physics is nice | 18:05 |
| lbt | approximations are good enough ;) | 18:05 |
| AStorm | it is true physics :) | 18:05 |
| AStorm | that is, almost true physics | 18:05 |
| AStorm | (you're missing the 1/2 factor) | 18:05 |
| lbt | but that's not the problem | 18:06 |
| RST38h | true physics is where it shatters your device when it reaches the end of the list at full speed | 18:06 |
| lbt | and I'm using large values now | 18:06 |
| lbt | to debug | 18:06 |
| AStorm | large values of what? | 18:06 |
| lbt | so I actually see the effect in slow motion | 18:06 |
| lbt | OVERSHOOT_DECEL_PC 50 | 18:06 |
| AStorm | mhm | 18:06 |
| lbt | should be closer to 80... rubber wall, not gravity | 18:06 |
| AStorm | then add that 5/10 | 18:06 |
| lbt | yeah... so when we tune it that's great | 18:07 |
| lbt | but right now it's broken | 18:07 |
| lbt | :( | 18:07 |
| AStorm | broken, how? | 18:07 |
| lbt | heh, | 18:07 |
| AStorm | (show some print output) | 18:07 |
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| jukey | hi , is there anybody who know where to get information about an error of maemoscrobbler? | 18:07 |
| lbt | http://pastebin.com/d28c7b695 | 18:08 |
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| jukey | the gui shows me: Status: Error submitting (14:56) | 18:08 |
| lbt | how to describe broken animation on irc ? | 18:08 |
| lbt | given my camera went for repair 2 days ago? | 18:08 |
| fiferboy | lbt: Does this make any sense? http://pastebin.com/m313311cb | 18:08 |
| fiferboy | Line 272 | 18:08 |
| AStorm | lbt, something is very wrong... you get constant v | 18:08 |
| lbt | OverShootStabilise is supposed to be constant v | 18:09 |
| AStorm | this shouldn't happen, it should always halve | 18:09 |
| AStorm | no, or it's not physics | 18:09 |
| AStorm | ah, wait | 18:09 |
| lbt | actually it should accelerate and then decelerate | 18:09 |
| AStorm | what does that do? | 18:09 |
| lbt | cos at the turning point v=0 | 18:09 |
| AStorm | the Stabilize part | 18:09 |
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| lbt | read the state code | 18:10 |
| AStorm | # | 18:10 |
| AStorm | if (braking_cycles-- <= 0) { | 18:10 |
| lbt | fiferboy: almost | 18:10 |
| AStorm | bad, use velocity for cutoff | 18:10 |
| AStorm | not cycles | 18:10 |
| lbt | vsb->max is in 'value', not pixels | 18:11 |
| AStorm | e.g. if vel.ry() < something, vel.ry() = 0 | 18:11 |
| lbt | fiferboy: ) - scrollBase.ry()) / scrollFactor.y() - curr.ry())/braking_cycles; | 18:11 |
| AStorm | (actually, abs(vel.ry()) | 18:11 |
| lbt | I think we subtract target - old_val | 18:12 |
| lbt | and I did target - (a +b) = target - a +b | 18:12 |
| lbt | AStorm: this code has 2 decelerations and a rebound | 18:13 |
| lbt | friction deceleration on release | 18:13 |
| lbt | rubber deceleration on hitting the limit | 18:13 |
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| lbt | and linear rebound | 18:13 |
| AStorm | rubber deceleration? | 18:13 |
| AStorm | wth is that? | 18:13 |
| lbt | imagine hitting a rubber end-stop | 18:13 |
| AStorm | ah, that thing | 18:14 |
| AStorm | you need an oscillation for that | 18:14 |
| AStorm | e.g. sin * 1/2 * k | 18:14 |
| lbt | not pretty in a gui | 18:14 |
| AStorm | yep ;P | 18:14 |
| AStorm | other than that, no need for deceleration - just stop | 18:14 |
| lbt | so we have what I descrobed ... 2 decelerations and a linear rebound | 18:14 |
| AStorm | :) | 18:14 |
| fiferboy | lbt: Are the numbers any closer now? | 18:15 |
| AStorm | ok, again, when is "rubber decel" active | 18:16 |
| AStorm | and rebound happens when you hit an edge? | 18:16 |
| lbt | no | 18:16 |
| lbt | rubber decel at an edge | 18:16 |
| AStorm | uhm, wha? | 18:16 |
| lbt | rebound when rubber decel stops you | 18:16 |
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| AStorm | how would that be useful? | 18:16 |
| AStorm | so that it stops always before you hit an edge? | 18:17 |
| AStorm | it's horrible | 18:17 |
| lbt | no, it *starts* to stop | 18:17 |
| lbt | when you hit an edg | 18:17 |
| lbt | e | 18:17 |
| lbt | and then goes past the edge | 18:17 |
| lbt | straining mightily | 18:17 |
| AStorm | ah, so you're simulating an indented surface? | 18:17 |
| lbt | like in a cartoon | 18:17 |
| lbt | a rubber wall | 18:18 |
| lbt | I call my widget Tom | 18:18 |
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| AStorm | ok, so proper function is still friction... | 18:18 |
| lbt | then when he has fully stretched out the rubber wall | 18:18 |
| AStorm | but you get additional force added | 18:18 |
| lbt | no, elastic | 18:18 |
| AStorm | same! | 18:18 |
| AStorm | it's still a force | 18:18 |
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| lbt | no elastic force proportional to stretch | 18:19 |
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| AStorm | (at least, can be modelled as one) | 18:19 |
| AStorm | let me check | 18:19 |
| lbt | bow+arrow | 18:19 |
| fiferboy | lbt: I would describe it more like an elastic band holding something back when you hit the edge | 18:19 |
| AStorm | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_elasticity | 18:19 |
| AStorm | ^ | 18:20 |
| fiferboy | It pulls against it (decelerating) and then it starts being pulled back | 18:20 |
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| lbt | yes | 18:20 |
| lbt | but mine twangs | 18:20 |
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| lbt | imparting energy in a sudden impulse | 18:20 |
| lbt | inside the first timeslice | 18:21 |
| lardman | whoa, still doing elestic modelling | 18:21 |
| AStorm | working correctly | 18:21 |
| lbt | and having cV after that... | 18:21 |
| AStorm | that's how elasticity works | 18:21 |
| AStorm | all the stored energy is released at once | 18:21 |
| fiferboy | Ah, so different from most kinetic scrolling rebounds I have seen | 18:21 |
| lbt | In addition linear elasticity is only valid for stress states that do not produce yielding. | 18:21 |
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| lardman | or heating | 18:22 |
| AStorm | lbt, in other words, hitting a spring is linear | 18:22 |
| AStorm | (more or less) | 18:22 |
| lbt | anyway, I don't care :D | 18:22 |
| lbt | right now I'm getting antimatter hitting non-linear springs and some kind of perpetual motion | 18:23 |
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| AStorm | so, your model acts correctly... like a spring :) | 18:23 |
| lardman | do you have a damping term in there too? | 18:23 |
| fiferboy | lbt: I like the sound of that! | 18:23 |
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| lardman | obviously not, but do you plan on having one? | 18:23 |
| AStorm | lardman, friction should be the damping term | 18:23 |
| lbt | it's so broken that I don't care about the precise shape of the deceleration curve | 18:23 |
| lbt | I have 2 damping terms | 18:23 |
| AStorm | lbt, you have to apply friction to the rebound too | 18:24 |
| lbt | one for normal slowdown | 18:24 |
| lbt | one for hitting an end stop | 18:24 |
| AStorm | wrong | 18:24 |
| AStorm | friction should apply to both | 18:24 |
| lbt | wrong | 18:24 |
| lbt | one is friction | 18:24 |
| lbt | one is elastic | 18:24 |
| lbt | one results in rebound one doesn't | 18:24 |
| AStorm | "hitting an end stop" should happen before it hits an edge, right? | 18:25 |
| AStorm | or as it hits an edge? | 18:25 |
| lbt | the end stop/edge is a rubber band stretched across the path | 18:25 |
| lbt | and it goes past the limit | 18:25 |
| AStorm | yes | 18:25 |
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| lbt | so Y coords: | 18:25 |
| fiferboy | lbt: What are your debug numbers after the latest changes? | 18:26 |
| AStorm | ok, then your rebound velocity should be calculated like this | 18:26 |
| AStorm | velrebound = - vel * springyfactor | 18:26 |
| lbt | keep chatting, I'm going to code some things and start a build | 18:26 |
| AStorm | where that factor is less than 1 | 18:26 |
| andrewfblack | RST38h: you around? | 18:27 |
| lardman | bbiab | 18:27 |
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| AStorm | lbt, and after the rebound, it should be also affected by friction | 18:27 |
| AStorm | you just get another starting velocity | 18:28 |
| lbt | 0 | 18:28 |
| AStorm | not 0 | 18:28 |
| AStorm | -vel * 1/springiness | 18:28 |
| lbt | o | 18:28 |
| lbt | I guarantee you it's zero | 18:29 |
| AStorm | it's not if it was scrolling | 18:29 |
| lbt | since it passes from +ve velocity to -ve velocity | 18:29 |
| AStorm | ... | 18:30 |
| AStorm | rebound happens at an edge | 18:30 |
| AStorm | when velocity is >0 | 18:30 |
| AStorm | otherwise it stops | 18:30 |
| AStorm | actually, when abs(velocity) > 0 | 18:31 |
| AStorm | so you still need to calculate velocity somehow | 18:31 |
| AStorm | this time, not from scrolling, which doesn't happen | 18:32 |
| AStorm | so, you get 2 cases | 18:32 |
| AStorm | one, where point was moving before hitting the edge | 18:33 |
| AStorm | and 2, when your rebound starts at an edge | 18:33 |
| lbt | imagine the scrollbar is a ball on a traintrack. It rolls and eventually stops. That's friction. It rolls and slows down but before it stops it hits a rubber band stretched across the track between two posts. It slows down more quickly but goes past the posts and stretches the rubber band until it stops and the band is stretched. Now the band snaps but gives the ball enough speed to get back to the posts in the same time as it got from the posts to the stopping | 18:34 |
| lbt | point. Then a magic spell stops the ball dead when it is level with the posts. | 18:34 |
| lbt | that's my model that is ;) | 18:34 |
| crashanddie_ | a ball on a traintrack would stop in less that 2m | 18:34 |
| crashanddie_ | have you never noticed all the bumps? | 18:34 |
| AStorm | yuck | 18:34 |
| lbt | monorail | 18:35 |
| AStorm | this model will suck in use | 18:35 |
| crashanddie_ | it's like the wheel of fortune, squared | 18:35 |
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| AStorm | so, when do you want to stop at an edge | 18:35 |
| timeless_mbp | hi crashanddie | 18:35 |
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| AStorm | 1) when you hit it | 18:35 |
| crashanddie_ | hi timeless_mbp | 18:35 |
| timeless_mbp | ok, i think i have a couple of things ironed out | 18:35 |
| timeless_mbp | sadly i failed to hit up everyone i wanted to for this week, but i think overall i've gotten to see quite a few people | 18:36 |
| AStorm | or... 2) when remaining energy of the point is below the band's inertia? | 18:36 |
| lbt | AStorm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-D-J0Y7ufM 19 seconds in | 18:36 |
| lcuk | lbt, if you did it with a rubber band and the ball hit it with enough power to actually bend the band then the ball will fire back off down the track | 18:36 |
| lbt | that's the 'rebound' phase | 18:36 |
| crashanddie_ | lbt: as lcuk just pointed out, there's definitely a few problems with your metaphore | 18:36 |
| lbt | but it doesn't need a full physics engine | 18:37 |
| lcuk | so its a sticky rubber band so when the ball hits it its glued, but oscilates around the natural flex point of the band | 18:37 |
| lcuk | we should add a twoioiinggggg sound effect | 18:37 |
| crashanddie_ | that's like brickbreaker | 18:37 |
| lbt | crashanddie_: my metaphor ends in magic.... how can it be wrong | 18:37 |
| AStorm | lbt, note it goes BEYOND the are | 18:38 |
| AStorm | *area | 18:38 |
| fiferboy | lbt: Are your debug numbers any better now? | 18:38 |
| lbt | fiferboy: think so... but not right | 18:38 |
| fiferboy | AStorm: That's what the overshoot is | 18:38 |
| AStorm | so your velocity is being reduced in a linear function of dv | 18:38 |
| AStorm | then goes to zero | 18:39 |
| lbt | fiferboy: you understand... can you explain? | 18:39 |
| AStorm | then springs back again as a linear function of dv, possibly multipled by some "loss factor" | 18:39 |
| AStorm | in other words, dy is a square function of y | 18:40 |
| AStorm | or sqrt of y | 18:40 |
| fiferboy | Basically, it does what the video lbt posted shows. | 18:40 |
| * lbt goes for a coffee | 18:40 | |
| AStorm | depending on the direction | 18:40 |
| crashanddie_ | timeless_mbp: you still on for lunch then? | 18:40 |
| AStorm | (into rubber it's sqrt, out of the rubber it's a square) | 18:40 |
| fiferboy | Shoots past the end, slows down, comes back and settles happily at the list end (or start) | 18:40 |
| timeless_mbp | i believe so | 18:40 |
| AStorm | assuming linear rubber | 18:40 |
| lcuk | is there a maximum amount that an overshoot can be | 18:40 |
| crashanddie_ | timeless_mbp: I didn't see you reply, you might want to confirm | 18:40 |
| AStorm | and *all that* is affected by friction still | 18:40 |
| timeless_mbp | although they're going to need to repoke me w/ details real soon | 18:41 |
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| fiferboy | lcuk: There is a maximum if you have released your finger. You can pull it back all you want with your finger on the widget | 18:41 |
| crashanddie_ | timeless_mbp: they did, they're waiting for your reply | 18:41 |
| AStorm | lbt, so, you're missing a cutoff by going to v=0 | 18:41 |
| lcuk | upto 1 screen w/h i assume - or can you keep pulling it back release,regrab quickly and pull back more | 18:42 |
| AStorm | you need v <= const instead | 18:42 |
| crashanddie_ | timeless_mbp: reply to yesterday's email and propose a time as well | 18:42 |
| timeless_mbp | ok, i need to learn to use Reply To All | 18:42 |
| lcuk | if you do that for a list of 10000 items do you break the speed of light restoring it | 18:42 |
| timeless_mbp | arg, and a time? | 18:42 |
| AStorm | or limit vmax | 18:42 |
| timeless_mbp | hrm | 18:42 |
| fiferboy | lcuk: I don't think you can regrab, but that would be fun | 18:42 |
| timeless_mbp | ok | 18:42 |
| crashanddie_ | timeless_mbp: well if it's today, you might want to start pushing things :) | 18:42 |
| lcuk | yeah :D | 18:42 |
| timeless_mbp | yeah yeah | 18:42 |
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| AStorm | make sure to get the loss factor in | 18:42 |
| lcuk | i think all list items should be independent, and act like newtons cradle :D | 18:42 |
| * timeless_mbp hasn't really woken up yet | 18:42 | |
| AStorm | lcuk, that'd be fun | 18:43 |
| crashanddie_ | timeless_mbp: oh you fucking twat | 18:43 |
| Jaffa | mgedmin: ping | 18:43 |
| crashanddie_ | timeless_mbp: you're a veggie? That's so 90s :D | 18:43 |
| timeless_mbp | i'm not | 18:43 |
| mgedmin | hi, Jaffa | 18:43 |
| lcuk | yeah until a list item at the end fires off and out through the side of the device and takes someones eye out | 18:43 |
| timeless_mbp | I actually had a meat meal last night on Castro street | 18:43 |
| timeless_mbp | it turns out they opened a kosher restaurant there a week ago | 18:43 |
| AStorm | lcuk, no, it'll rebound from the edge | 18:43 |
| AStorm | :D | 18:43 |
| fiferboy | luck: Don't Fremantle devices come with goggles to prevent that? | 18:43 |
| timeless_mbp | but I'm not going to go there two days in a row | 18:44 |
| lcuk | AStorm, are you sure the materials at the end are structurally sound | 18:44 |
| AStorm | they are | 18:44 |
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| lcuk | nokia testing labs need to build a device to test this theory | 18:44 |
| fiferboy | Some of my list items have a lot of mass | 18:44 |
| lcuk | like the pocket shuffler thing | 18:44 |
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| lcuk | heh | 18:44 |
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| AStorm | lbt, so, it's fake rubber band | 18:45 |
| lcuk | we should use the accel unit promised for fremantle to allow a list to be shook up | 18:45 |
| lcuk | to test it | 18:45 |
| AStorm | the item's velocity is set to some constant upon hitting an edge | 18:45 |
| AStorm | that's how it looks | 18:45 |
| fiferboy | lcuk: That would be an awesome way to suffle a playlist | 18:45 |
| lcuk | yeah | 18:45 |
| AStorm | otherwise, it'd overshoot A LOT | 18:45 |
| lbt | no, it starts to decelerate on hitting an edge | 18:45 |
| AStorm | or the factor is huge | 18:46 |
| lbt | but faster than friction | 18:46 |
| lcuk | fiferboy, ive been playing with lists quite a lot as you know, have you seen and felt the new framework stuff - its got an almost infinite kinetic caledar thats smooth as silk | 18:46 |
| Jaffa | mgedmin: your cp's failing on nfs - you using nfs-user-server? | 18:46 |
| AStorm | then it shouldn't overshoot at all at small v | 18:46 |
| lbt | correct | 18:46 |
| AStorm | check it | 18:46 |
| fiferboy | lcuk: You mean the Qt Declarative UI videos? | 18:46 |
| mgedmin | Jaffa: no, I don't think so | 18:46 |
| AStorm | btw, the correct factor is based on the width | 18:46 |
| AStorm | :) | 18:46 |
| lcuk | fiferboy, theres a playtest out in the wild and keesj is tracking the source | 18:46 |
| AStorm | (in case of dy, or height in case of dx) | 18:46 |
| mgedmin | Jaffa: nfs-kernel-server 1:1.1.2-6lenny1 | 18:47 |
| lcuk | its on a git server somewhere | 18:47 |
| * mgedmin needs blog comments damnit! | 18:47 | |
| Jaffa | mgedmin: Kernel server? I've had loads of problems from hardy onwards with the user server - but it's the only one which gives me the uid mapping I need :( | 18:47 |
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| mgedmin | yeah, that sounds familiar | 18:47 |
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| lcuk | fiferboy, much more is in place since the pretty zooming vid :) | 18:47 |
| crashanddie_ | how is java dev going on the n8x0? | 18:47 |
| mgedmin | I tried to use it for the same reasons and had to stop for some other reasons | 18:47 |
| * AStorm needs that python-processing... fairly quickly | 18:47 | |
| timeless_mbp | crashanddie_: who does that? | 18:47 |
| fiferboy | lcuk: Which video are you referring to? | 18:47 |
| AStorm | and jeremiah is still out | 18:47 |
| AStorm | :/ | 18:47 |
| Jaffa | mgedmin: don't go into too much detail now ;-) | 18:48 |
| lcuk | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMXp0Dg_UaY this vid | 18:48 |
| lcuk | http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=285896&postcount=260 this post where i mention about the playtest and how to run it etc | 18:48 |
| lcuk | find out how different mechanisms work on actual hardware and what works etc :) | 18:49 |
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| AStorm | lbt, indeed, this is fake spring | 18:50 |
| AStorm | see how it takes some time when it reaches max overshoot | 18:50 |
| AStorm | normal elastic would either break or act at once | 18:50 |
| AStorm | if it breaks, velocity is still non-negative | 18:50 |
| AStorm | if it acts at once, v == 0 at some point | 18:50 |
| crashanddie_ | timeless_mbp: https://wiki.evolvis.org/jalimo/index.php/Maemo | 18:50 |
| AStorm | so, they probably set the velocity to constant with - upon hitting some max_overshoot | 18:51 |
| AStorm | (and it still gets friction applied when returning) | 18:51 |
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| timeless_mbp | crashanddie_: could you ask those clowns what they have against getting a proper certificate? | 18:53 |
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| timeless_mbp | Chinoook | 18:54 |
| timeless_mbp | 3 o's? | 18:54 |
| timeless_mbp | gah | 18:54 |
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| AStorm | lbt, ok, let me write you the correct equation | 18:55 |
| lbt | :) | 18:55 |
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| AStorm | v *= 1/2 * slowness - (hit_edge ? springfactor * 1/overshoot : 0) | 18:57 |
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| AStorm | argh | 18:58 |
| AStorm | no, it is correct :) | 18:58 |
| AStorm | now, when v reaches zero and you're overshot, you apply | 18:58 |
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| AStorm | v = - springfactor * 1/overshoot | 18:59 |
| lardman | lol, still going :) | 18:59 |
| lcuk | yeah lardman the mechanics of underpant elastic and the forces needed to give a satisfying wedgy are complex | 19:00 |
| fiferboy | Well, I'm going to go get some fresh air | 19:01 |
| lcuk | im surprised you havent got involved and modelled it for them in [*insert random mathematical prog here*] | 19:01 |
| lardman | I missed the start | 19:01 |
| lardman | was too busy doing some other modelling | 19:01 |
| fiferboy | Hopefully all the friction/spring/elastic/magic will be worked out before I get back | 19:01 |
| lcuk | spring back | 19:01 |
| AStorm | or rather, no | 19:02 |
| AStorm | no, that is correct | 19:02 |
| AStorm | then apply friction to the resulting constant | 19:02 |
| lardman | spring back will a well damped frictional halt | 19:02 |
| AStorm | obviously, this is invalid, but seems to be what's shown in the movie | 19:02 |
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| AStorm | should be v = 1/2 * speedfactor * (v - springfactor * 1/overshoot) | 19:02 |
| AStorm | and I'm lagged :P | 19:02 |
| lcuk | cya later fiferboy_away | 19:02 |
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| * AStorm needs pyprocessing BADLY! | 19:03 | |
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| AStorm | maybe someone can do it quicker than jeremiah? | 19:03 |
| lardman | can I ask what you're having troubles with? | 19:03 |
| biiter_ | did someone found any reasonable use for the camera on n810 ?? | 19:03 |
| lardman | some sort of kinetic scrolling thing? | 19:03 |
| lcuk | its the end of the kinetics they are trying to work out | 19:03 |
| lardman | biiter_: barcode scanning | 19:03 |
| AStorm | biiter_, yes, automatic rotation and barcode scanning | 19:04 |
| lardman | biiter_: I like the sound of starmap matching | 19:04 |
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| lcuk | use it for video calling | 19:04 |
| lardman | yes, that one too | 19:04 |
| lcuk | and for taking pics in liqbase | 19:04 |
| AStorm | pics of yourself, you mean | 19:04 |
| lardman | did anyone get around to making the gesture recognition app? | 19:05 |
| AStorm | hard to aim otherwise | 19:05 |
| lcuk | AStorm, or your friends :) | 19:05 |
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| lbt | lardman http://pastebin.com/d77515911 | 19:05 |
| lardman | needs face recognition so you can point it randomly and it will boing when it's pointing at someone | 19:05 |
| biiter_ | ok :) thx | 19:05 |
| AStorm | lardman, neat idea! | 19:05 |
| AStorm | we have opencv on the tablet? | 19:06 |
| lardman | there's a Garage project isn't there? | 19:06 |
| AStorm | IDK | 19:06 |
| lardman | there was talk of getting it working, I thought just some basic image correlation code ought to do the job though | 19:06 |
| AStorm | standard Haar recognizer | 19:07 |
| lcuk | bbiab tracy poorly again | 19:07 |
| AStorm | it will take like, 30 lines of code to find that face | 19:07 |
| AStorm | or those faces | 19:07 |
| lardman | lcuk: more wine! | 19:07 |
| lardman | AStorm: from scratch in C?! | 19:08 |
| lardman | :) | 19:08 |
| AStorm | lardman, C++, with OpenCV | 19:08 |
| lardman | ah cool | 19:08 |
| AStorm | of course, given training material | 19:08 |
| AStorm | but there are ready-made bases of pics to get a good classifier | 19:09 |
| derf | Don't the Haar approaches use like 200,000 features? | 19:09 |
| AStorm | derf, yes, more | 19:09 |
| AStorm | but not that many examples | 19:09 |
| derf | You seriously think that'll run on a tablet? | 19:09 |
| AStorm | you can get good results with like 9000 positive + 9000 negative | 19:09 |
| derf | At anything approaching video frame rates? | 19:09 |
| AStorm | sure yeah | 19:09 |
| derf | You're crazy. | 19:09 |
| AStorm | assuming camera doesn't eat CPU | 19:09 |
| derf | Hahahaha. | 19:09 |
| AStorm | 10 FPS | 19:09 |
| lardman | lbt: what is VSCALE? Some sort of scaling factor to slow the speed? | 19:10 |
| AStorm | it takes like, 10ms to find a face on a single core of Turion X2 Ultra 2200 MHz | 19:10 |
| lcuk | how do they do facial recognition on the canon cameras? | 19:10 |
| AStorm | lardman, just 100 | 19:10 |
| lcuk | or is that just facial feature recognition | 19:10 |
| AStorm | lcuk, probably the same, or morphological detection | 19:10 |
| lardman | ok, just a scaling factor | 19:10 |
| lcuk | i put sketch searching into liqbase last night | 19:11 |
| ShadowJK | the facial recognition on canon cameras is funny. It thinks a beer can is a face, but fails to notice people :-) | 19:11 |
| lcuk | i made an api to draw a sketch and it shows all the sketches which have these features | 19:11 |
| derf | ShadowJK: Needs more AdaBoost. | 19:11 |
| lcuk | lol shadow | 19:11 |
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| AStorm | ok, so, again | 19:15 |
| AStorm | you only need 1 FPS for it to be useful for pics | 19:15 |
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| AStorm | better to have more, of course | 19:15 |
| AStorm | 5 FPS is certainly possible | 19:15 |
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| crashanddie_ | ShadowJK: is it an empty can or full can? | 19:19 |
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| lardman | yuck, Haar is a learning thing | 19:22 |
| lardman | not a plain-Jane algorithmic solution :) | 19:22 |
| derf | You're asking for a classifier. | 19:23 |
| derf | Of course it's a learning thing. | 19:23 |
| lardman | yeah, not my field | 19:23 |
| derf | It's (one of) mine. | 19:23 |
| lardman | how many tuning params are there then? | 19:23 |
| ShadowJK | crashanddie, half-full | 19:24 |
| derf | Presumably, the number of boosting stages, the size of the sample images, and the number of sample images. | 19:24 |
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| derf | I'm sure one could add more, but I don't think any more are necessary. | 19:24 |
| lardman | glad to hear it ;) | 19:26 |
| AStorm | derf, and mine too :) | 19:28 |
| derf | AStorm: So why haven't you written the 30 lines of code yet? | 19:29 |
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| lardman | where's that chap who wanted an STFT on the DSP I wonder? | 19:31 |
| AStorm | hmm | 19:31 |
| AStorm | in which repo can I get gcc for the tablet? | 19:31 |
| lardman | poke lcuk | 19:31 |
| AStorm | derf, yes, but not compiled for the tablet | 19:31 |
| AStorm | and especially not packaged | 19:32 |
| lardman | probably the sdk one | 19:32 |
| lbt | AStorm: Mer .... standard. | 19:32 |
| AStorm | lardman, for diablo? link/url please | 19:32 |
| AStorm | lbt, ... Maemo. | 19:32 |
| AStorm | for Mer, it's in the default | 19:32 |
| lbt | ah, there's you're problem right there. | 19:32 |
| lardman | don't have one off hand, sorry | 19:32 |
| AStorm | lbt, but target isn't a non-existent release-quality Mer | 19:32 |
| AStorm | ;P | 19:33 |
| AStorm | that will happen, but much later | 19:33 |
| lbt | it's an approximation to release-quality... | 19:33 |
| AStorm | uhm, no. | 19:33 |
| AStorm | just as linear function is an approximation of an exponential one ;P | 19:34 |
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| lcuk | yeah lardman | 19:39 |
| lardman | wine? | 19:40 |
| lardman | or the location of gcc for on-tablet dev> | 19:40 |
| lardman | ? | 19:40 |
| Jaffa | Nearly. | 19:40 |
| lcuk | deb http://repository.maemo.org/ diablo/sdk free non-free | 19:40 |
| lardman | Jaffa: how's things? | 19:40 |
| lardman | Jaffa: I have a glass on the go, wonderful :) | 19:40 |
| Jaffa | lardman: first day back at work today - working from home sorting email | 19:40 |
| lcuk | same repository scratchbox uses | 19:41 |
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| lardman | lcuk: thanks on AStorm's behalf | 19:41 |
| AStorm | lcuk, does it contain armel (non-cross) compiler? | 19:41 |
| Jaffa | Got a glass of a Normandy aperitif before curry & polishing off last night's bottle of red | 19:41 |
| lcuk | yes astorm i run everything directly on tablet after using standard apt-get stuffs | 19:41 |
| lardman | mmm, curry | 19:41 |
| AStorm | because AFAICS Scratchbox still uses one | 19:41 |
| AStorm | mhm :) | 19:41 |
| AStorm | checking | 19:41 |
| AStorm | whoops, not enough disk space I guess | 19:41 |
| AStorm | time to drop that OpenTyrian ;P | 19:41 |
| lcuk | plenty if you dont waste it | 19:42 |
| * lardman needs to push through the slightly dizzy faze and get onto some coding | 19:42 | |
| lcuk | tho i ran out the other night | 19:42 |
| AStorm | lcuk, on 256 MB flash? :P | 19:42 |
| lcuk | more wine | 19:42 |
| lardman | +1 | 19:42 |
| lcuk | AStorm, yeah theres enough to grab lots of things | 19:42 |
| AStorm | vim is fairly huge for example | 19:42 |
| lcuk | i wouldnt know lol | 19:42 |
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| lardman | use vi you coward! ;) | 19:43 |
| AStorm | abiword is large too | 19:43 |
| crashanddie_ | timeless_mbp: ping, Yves replied to your email | 19:43 |
| AStorm | lardman, sorry, need proper multifile editor | 19:43 |
| lardman | AStorm: I know, was only taking the mick | 19:43 |
| timeless_mbp | ok, i'm getting dressed and hunting for my cell phone | 19:46 |
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| * timeless_mbp ponders | 19:48 | |
| AStorm | gcc = No Matches Found... argh | 19:49 |
| AStorm | just added the SDK repo | 19:49 |
| timeless_mbp | crashanddie_: ok, this might be complicated | 19:50 |
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| lcuk | AStorm, | 19:51 |
| lcuk | Nokia-N810-23-14:~# apt-cache showpkg gcc | 19:51 |
| lcuk | Package: gcc | 19:51 |
| lcuk | Versions: | 19:51 |
| lcuk | 4:3.4.4-7osso2 (/var/lib/apt/lists/repository.maemo.org_dists_diablo_sdk_free_binary-armel_Packages) (/var/lib/dpkg/status) | 19:51 |
| lcuk | 19:51 | |
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| * lardman wanders off to watch some TV | 19:51 | |
| lbt | fiferboy_away: done | 19:51 |
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| AStorm | lcuk, check again the repo, hmmh | 19:51 |
| * timeless_mbp can't see any way to get there by mass transit w/o needing an hour | 19:51 | |
| AStorm | maybe it didn't dl correctly or sth | 19:51 |
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| AStorm | ok, darned redpill ;) | 19:52 |
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| fiferboy | lbt: You got it? | 19:59 |
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| lbt | yes | 20:01 |
| lbt | fiferboy... http://pastebin.com/d5cf63d55 | 20:02 |
| lbt | want the .so? | 20:03 |
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| fiferboy | lbt: I sure do! | 20:03 |
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| AStorm | darn | 20:11 |
| AStorm | python2.5-dev is huge :/ | 20:11 |
| AStorm | to heck ;) | 20:11 |
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| Stskeeps | anyone who happen to know what it means when NetworkManager is greying out APs? :P | 20:11 |
| Stskeeps | / SSIDs | 20:11 |
| thopiekar | Stskeeps: greying out == leaving out? | 20:13 |
| Stskeeps | no, it shows them but they're grey | 20:13 |
| thopiekar | I've never seen that :P | 20:13 |
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| AStorm | hidden networks? | 20:21 |
| AStorm | neat, now I need libc6-dev and stuff ;P | 20:24 |
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| AStorm | weird that python2.5-dev doesn't dep on these | 20:24 |
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| AStorm | it should | 20:24 |
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| AStorm | now I'm a proud owner of pyprocessing :> | 20:28 |
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| AStorm | and now multiprocessing too :) | 20:36 |
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| RST38h | mulpyprocessing? | 20:37 |
| AStorm | ;) almost | 20:38 |
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| AStorm | multiprocessing module backported from python 2.6.1.1 | 20:38 |
| AStorm | (same as in 2.6.2) | 20:38 |
| AStorm | doesn't need any weird javascript it seems - a bug in debian package it seems :) | 20:39 |
| GAN800 | RST38h, the 5800 is pretty nice but damn the browser sucks. | 20:39 |
| AStorm | and it seems that debian maintainers don't test their packages either | 20:39 |
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| AStorm | when jeremiah shows back, tell him that - the exact same settings will work for python-multiprocessing as for python-processing :) | 20:40 |
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| mikkov_ | anybody have a clue how big is the flash where rootfs resides is going to be in rx-51? | 20:51 |
| konttori_ | sure, but cannot tell | 20:52 |
| konttori_ | how so? | 20:52 |
| Stskeeps | mikkov_: theres going to be a large immc source code claims.. no idea on nand | 20:54 |
| RST38h | mikkov: there is just two possibilities | 20:54 |
| RST38h | mikkov: it is either 256MB or 512MB | 20:55 |
| ShadowJK | not 128? :) | 20:55 |
| RST38h | He asked about flash | 20:55 |
| ShadowJK | yes | 20:56 |
| RST38h | Samsung makes 128 SDRAM + 256 flash and 256 SDRAM + 512 flash | 20:56 |
| ShadowJK | I'm more curious if it's going to be jffs2 or one of the newer things :) | 20:57 |
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| RST38h | Shadow: Not very important to me | 20:57 |
| lcuk | do we know it the rx-51 has a data crystal reader? | 20:57 |
| RST38h | I suppose whatever Nokia chooses it will be something sensible | 20:57 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Yes, and you lubricate it with blood | 20:58 |
| ShadowJK | some would argue jffs2 isn't sensible even for n8x0 :) | 20:58 |
| ShadowJK | but the replacements weren't really ready yet | 20:58 |
| RST38h | it works | 20:58 |
| fiferboy | lbt: :O | 20:59 |
| RST38h | I definitely want real file system on the internal mmc though | 20:59 |
| RST38h | One that lets me install software | 20:59 |
| lbt | fiferboy: how does it look... | 20:59 |
| fiferboy | lbt: I have a meeting right now, but wow! | 20:59 |
| lbt | it's 'exagerated' | 20:59 |
| fiferboy | I like the new VMAX too | 20:59 |
| fiferboy | Wow, very nice. I'll give you more feedback later | 21:00 |
| lbt | can you do video? | 21:00 |
| lbt | my camera died :(( | 21:00 |
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| fiferboy_away | My camera is dead too! Battery cacked | 21:00 |
| fiferboy_away | Gotta go, talk later | 21:00 |
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| crashanddie_ | lbt: camera on n810 died some time ago as well, opened it up, and the data cable was disconnected | 21:02 |
| crashanddie_ | lbt: plugged it back in, and works fine | 21:02 |
| lbt | I meant my canon ;) | 21:02 |
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| lbt | I want to video the Qt bounce | 21:02 |
| lbt | I suppose a mirror.... | 21:02 |
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| lcuk | heh | 21:03 |
| lbt | vnc2avi ? | 21:03 |
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| ShadowJK | RST38h, even with real filesystem on it you'd have to mount it in the rootfs somewhere? | 21:03 |
| lcuk | 2slow | 21:03 |
| lbt | food... back in an hour | 21:03 |
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| RST38h | Shadow: Guess so | 21:04 |
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| ShadowJK | so like one step less than using loop? | 21:04 |
| ShadowJK | or like, reformat the mmc yourself, heh | 21:05 |
| RST38h | Shadow: I dunno what you mean by using loop, but the current OS does not let me run stuff from mmcs | 21:05 |
| mikkov_ | konttori_: I was just thinking if big data files (games) should still be installed to mmc | 21:06 |
| ShadowJK | oh, it mounts it noexec :) | 21:07 |
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| RST38h | Shadow: there does not seem to be any security reason to mount internal mmc as noexec, so I guess there is some other reason | 21:08 |
| konttori_ | mikkov_: whatever the size of one nand, you would want to install big data files on emmc. | 21:08 |
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| konttori_ | anything of tens or hundreds of megabytes should go to emmc. | 21:08 |
| mikkov_ | ok, then it's pretty small as in N8x0 :) | 21:09 |
| RST38h | mikkov: there is | 21:09 |
| RST38h | small and limited | 21:09 |
| RST38h | 512 is small, 256 is limited | 21:09 |
| mikkov_ | /media/mmc2 is still the mount point? | 21:10 |
| konttori_ | Having exec code on a partition that gets mouted to PC is not a good idea. | 21:10 |
| konttori_ | mikkov_: for what? | 21:10 |
| lcuk | you say that like pc is a security risk lol | 21:10 |
| Stskeeps | mikkov_: ke-recv src is open | 21:11 |
| mikkov_ | konttori_: for emmc where I want to install my big files | 21:11 |
| konttori_ | yeah. | 21:11 |
| RST38h | konttori: if you mean windows virii, tablet won't run 'em :) | 21:11 |
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| ShadowJK | RST38h, quick, make up theory about why he said that, maybe there's wine+qemu-userspace | 21:12 |
| RST38h | Shadow: it is possible to write a custom pc virus that will copy maemo-specific payload when the NIT is mounted to PC | 21:13 |
| RST38h | Shadow: but I personally thing it is a scenario not worthy of consideration | 21:14 |
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| lcuk | or a scripted virus that uses python or something.. | 21:14 |
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| lcuk | surely though, its the way it is because a decision was made in the past | 21:14 |
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| ShadowJK | jokes aside, noexec on removable media is just common sense and good practice :) | 21:15 |
| lcuk | if anyone thinks that decision needs changing surely an official bug can be made | 21:15 |
| RST38h | One reason is that if you are really sneaky you will give victim a data file causing NIT app to overflow a buffer and execute the payload | 21:15 |
| RST38h | Shadow: Removable yes, dev/mmc2 no. | 21:15 |
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| lcuk | but from the system standpoint the mountpoint mmc2 used to be external and removable didnt it | 21:16 |
| mikkov_ | mmc1 is external | 21:16 |
| ShadowJK | I think if you boot N810 without external card, it swaps them around or something.. | 21:16 |
| lcuk | on n800 mmc1 and mmc2 are both external | 21:17 |
| mikkov_ | lcuk: but mmc2 is under battery cover | 21:17 |
| lcuk | so? | 21:17 |
| lcuk | its removable | 21:17 |
| mikkov_ | so pretty much internal to me :) | 21:17 |
| lcuk | and either way any of these can be reformatted to something better | 21:17 |
| RST38h | mikkov: do not offend n800 users :) | 21:18 |
| lcuk | i have my mmc1 which was fat as ext2 and i almost did same with mmc2 | 21:18 |
| RST38h | they consider it external and will kill you for telling them it is not really necessary to have two cards | 21:18 |
| lcuk | simplified ui :) http://www.lolpix.com/pictures/18/Funny_Pictures_548.htm | 21:19 |
| ShadowJK | please don't bunch us N800+N810 owners together with the N800-only owners | 21:19 |
| ShadowJK | ;) | 21:19 |
| mikkov_ | UI calls it also internal | 21:19 |
| lcuk | and its non executable unless you change something | 21:20 |
| lcuk | but it can be changed | 21:20 |
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| RST38h | "It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would ever consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional ethics would instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to which Baghdad could be given as a parameter." | 21:30 |
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| RST38h | (and then discover the wonders of forall() statement =)) | 21:31 |
| Jaffa | :) | 21:32 |
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| tds5016 | hey all. Is there an easy way to get the mac address with python? | 21:57 |
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| fiferboy | lbt: You back? | 22:03 |
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| fiferboy | lcuk: You can regrab lbt's overshoot when scrolling horizontally | 22:09 |
| lcuk | ? | 22:10 |
| lcuk | i dont use overshoot lol | 22:10 |
| lcuk | ahhhh | 22:10 |
| lcuk | i see what you mean | 22:10 |
| lcuk | cool then! | 22:10 |
| fiferboy | But it doesn't come back, so you can keep sending it off to the left | 22:11 |
| lcuk | :D excellent | 22:11 |
| lcuk | someone in ML today asked about grabbing a horizontal movable frame which had a text box on it, but the textbox ate the event | 22:11 |
| fiferboy | For the record, he just hasn't implemented the rubber band effect horizontally | 22:11 |
| lcuk | you have to wonder why people want to mix their metaphors | 22:12 |
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| lcuk | fiferboy, can you re-energize your scrolling whilst its going, like the little impulses you give to a roundabout to keep it at speed | 22:17 |
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| fiferboy | I'll pretend I know what a roundabout is for the purposes of your similie | 22:17 |
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| lcuk | http://www.flickr.com/photos/ilike/10662072/ | 22:19 |
| lcuk | kids stand on it, mates push them round, friends puke | 22:19 |
| lcuk | much hilarity :) | 22:19 |
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| fiferboy | Ah, I don't beleive I have ever heard it called that, but I can't recall what we used to call them. | 22:21 |
| fiferboy | I haven't seen one at a playground here in many year. | 22:21 |
| fiferboy | Too dangerous. Kids might have fun and fall down | 22:22 |
| lcuk | lol | 22:23 |
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| RST38h | fiferboy: What is this country where they banished roundabouts? | 22:36 |
| fiferboy | Canada. At least, I haven't seen any here in Ontario since I was a kid. | 22:36 |
| Stskeeps | insert random european country | 22:36 |
| * Stskeeps doesn't believe in cotton-coating kids | 22:37 | |
| t_s_o | http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS9676037801.html <- how long until running on maemo? ;) | 22:37 |
| lardman|tv | RST38h: roundabouts are something children shouldn't play on | 22:37 |
| fiferboy | They also don't generally have wooden wingsets and climbers any more. | 22:37 |
| fiferboy | /s/wingsets/swingsets | 22:37 |
| lardman|tv | lcuk: do they not have roundabouts in the North? | 22:38 |
| Stskeeps | lardman|tv: saw the smartq7 unboxing pics earlier? | 22:38 |
| lardman|tv | Stskeeps: new ones? Saw something the other day | 22:38 |
| lcuk | no, they removed then after the chavs were using em with motorbike power | 22:38 |
| lardman|tv | lcuk: I tend to go around them with 45 degrees bank angle... in a car | 22:38 |
| Stskeeps | "lardman|afk: http://www.jiongtang.com/blog/html/digital-product/smartq7-unboxing.html btw" | 22:39 |
| Stskeeps | (earlier today) | 22:39 |
| lardman|tv | thanks | 22:39 |
| lcuk | lol lardman|tv different kind of roundabout | 22:39 |
| RST38h | fiferboy: Oh, the horror | 22:39 |
| lardman|tv | the other child's toy has another names doesn't it? | 22:39 |
| RST38h | lardman: roundabouts are a useful tool of natural selection | 22:39 |
| lardman|tv | RST38h: indeed :) | 22:40 |
| * RST38h suggests renaming roundabout "a Darwin's Gate" | 22:40 | |
| fiferboy | lardman|tv: Sometimes they are called Merry-go-rounds, according to wikipedia | 22:40 |
| lardman|tv | they need bog spikes in the middle rather than grass | 22:40 |
| lardman|tv | s/bog/big | 22:40 |
| t_s_o | ye freaking mcalendarsync runaway... | 22:40 |
| lardman|tv | fiferboy: a merry-g-round is larger and powered | 22:40 |
| fiferboy | That's what I thought too, but apparently some people call the little ones that too | 22:41 |
| lardman|tv | and often has horses and the like that go up and down | 22:41 |
| RST38h | lardman: See, Canadians abolish roundabouts and the next thing they have to do is place warning stickers on everything, down to toothbrushes | 22:41 |
| lardman|tv | :) | 22:41 |
| fiferboy | RST38h: In English and French | 22:41 |
| RST38h | fiferboy: Oh. | 22:41 |
| * RST38h almost forgot | 22:41 | |
| suihkulokki | wtf is a chav? | 22:42 |
| lardman|tv | lcuk: aren;t they called spinny-pushy-thingy-ma-bobs? | 22:42 |
| lardman|tv | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav | 22:42 |
| lcuk | "you comin to the park to play on the swings and slide and roundabout" .. | 22:42 |
| lardman|tv | as I said, the North... ;) | 22:42 |
| fiferboy | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout_(play) | 22:42 |
| fiferboy | I love the picture of the homemade roundabout in that article! | 22:42 |
| tds5016 | anyone know of an easy way to get the mac address with python? | 22:42 |
| lardman|tv | yeah, well I bet it was an American who made that entry | 22:43 |
| RST38h | lardman: both the large and small kinds are called "carousel" in Russian (fancy French word for roundabout I guess) | 22:43 |
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| lardman|tv | not that I have anything against you guys, except that you don't know the names of children's playthings in England | 22:43 |
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| lcuk | http://hobsons-bay-leader.whereilive.com.au/news/story/security-guards-watch-over-point-cook-playground/ | 22:43 |
| fiferboy | Funny that the wikipedia article doesn't mention any roundabout-related deaths. | 22:43 |
| * RST38h has never been to England, so he has got an excuse | 22:43 | |
| lcuk | look at photo3 and you see why its needed to be guarded, but WHY did they allow it in the first place | 22:44 |
| lardman|tv | RST38h: carousel would be more like a merry-go-round in my book, but perhaps without the horses | 22:44 |
| RST38h | fiferboy: Maybe there weren't any? | 22:44 |
| Stskeeps | fiferboy: because if you go fast enough you fly into orbit! | 22:44 |
| lcuk | drill into the ground | 22:44 |
| fiferboy | Escape velocity! | 22:44 |
| RST38h | No bodies. | 22:44 |
| lcuk | i really like the "roundabout playpump" idea | 22:44 |
| lcuk | thats clever | 22:44 |
| * RST38h proud of making such a practical remark | 22:44 | |
| fiferboy | But what if there was a rubber band stretched above the roundabout and at least two other forces acting on the body? | 22:44 |
| lardman|tv | perhaps it is a merry-gop-round | 22:45 |
| lardman|tv | aargh, can't type | 22:45 |
| RST38h | fiferboy: children would either remove or tear it. | 22:45 |
| RST38h | fiferboy: next question. | 22:45 |
| * lardman|tv goes back to the TV and wine, still not reached the perfect programming saturation point | 22:45 | |
| fiferboy | How many skinned knees were suffered at the hands of the roundabouts? | 22:45 |
| RST38h | fiferboy: In fact, given enough time, they will pull the whole thing out of the ground too | 22:46 |
| lcuk | not that many, but banged heads and puke cleanup was high | 22:46 |
| * RST38h does not get the "was" part. These things are still in every second courtyard around here | 22:46 | |
| lcuk | anyway fiferboy now we all know what a roundabout is, can you give your kinetic list a little burst of energy every now and then to keep the list upto speed | 22:47 |
| fiferboy | lcuk: Oh, is that what you were getting at? Yes. | 22:47 |
| lcuk | like you can with a roundabout.. :P | 22:47 |
| fiferboy | You can. | 22:47 |
| lcuk | ok good lol | 22:47 |
| fiferboy | lcuk: I would have gone with a tetherball methaphor. | 22:48 |
| lcuk | i just saw the code to reset motion when you start a stroke | 22:48 |
| RST38h | Will any improvement in Tear kinetic scrolling come out of this BTW? | 22:48 |
| lcuk | 3 hours to explain "tetherball"? | 22:48 |
| fiferboy | lcuk: Well, I guess if you get down to it, when you touch the screen while it is scrolling the widget will start to follow your finger again | 22:48 |
| lcuk | RST38h, i would hope with all this discussion from all parties (no matter which framework) we will have a workable set of nice listviews in next device | 22:49 |
| fiferboy | But for all practical purposes, if you are fast enough to start flicking it will accelerate again. | 22:49 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Only if Nokia accepts the code. | 22:49 |
| lcuk | yeah i like to "strum" at the screen to keep it scrolling | 22:49 |
| lcuk | its relaxing and i can just change direction again with inverted stroke | 22:50 |
| fiferboy | RST38h: lbt's work won't directly affect Tear, but if the developers want to look at the code and implement something similar they are free to. | 22:50 |
| lcuk | RST38h, this is just discussion for everyone :) | 22:50 |
| lbt | hi | 22:50 |
| fiferboy | lbt: Hi, send you an email | 22:50 |
| lcuk | getting it into the minds of people is a good thing (TM) | 22:50 |
| lcuk | hi lbt \o | 22:51 |
| lcuk | RST38h, tear is webkit on gtk isnt it | 22:51 |
| RST38h | yea | 22:51 |
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| RST38h | fiferboy: Somebody has to tell Bundyo then | 22:52 |
| lbt | oops .. just looking at the backlog | 22:52 |
| fiferboy | lbt: It is mostly about old playground equipment | 22:52 |
| * RST38h has got a practical question | 22:52 | |
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| lbt | so it seems | 22:52 |
| RST38h | I am running a program taking the whole system memory (32MB) and need to invoke amixer from it | 22:52 |
| lcuk | lbt, which was your favorite from the playground | 22:53 |
| lbt | swings | 22:53 |
| RST38h | There is a little bit of memory left for amixer, but Linux misses spawn*() functions | 22:53 |
| lbt | you could jump off | 22:53 |
| fiferboy | lbt: We still have those here1 | 22:53 |
| lbt | or try and go over the top | 22:53 |
| lbt | cool | 22:53 |
| fiferboy | lbt: Oh, but you aren't allowed to jump off... | 22:53 |
| lcuk | indeed | 22:53 |
| lbt | safety-bars? | 22:53 |
| lbt | sigh | 22:53 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: dlopen it? :P | 22:54 |
| RST38h | And to do exec() I need to do fork() first and fork() fails because it is out of memory | 22:54 |
| fiferboy | No, I think you are just discouraged from it. | 22:54 |
| lcuk | lbt, we used to do this twisting thing and end up standing horizontally | 22:54 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: an executable??? | 22:54 |
| lbt | oh, sod that then! | 22:54 |
| lcuk | RST38h, no more memory == free some first | 22:54 |
| RST38h | lcuk: Can't | 22:54 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: it can be PIC/-shared and executable at same time, yeah | 22:54 |
| lcuk | if its full then you have to find a way | 22:54 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: maemo-launcher uses this trick extensively | 22:54 |
| lcuk | you could try syncing with a wristwatch and using its memory as expansion | 22:54 |
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| RST38h | Sts: hmmm...I doubt it will work =( | 22:55 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: why not call alsa directly then? :P | 22:56 |
| RST38h | Sts: If I knew how to control ALSA DAC volume, I would | 22:58 |
| lcuk | RST38h, i thought we had more than 32m anyway | 22:58 |
| RST38h | But ALSA has got super messy APIs | 22:58 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: http://alsa.opensrc.org/index.php/HowTo_access_a_mixer_control | 22:58 |
| RST38h | Sts: !!!! | 22:58 |
| lbt | fiferboy: thanks for the comments...I suspect it's mainl because of how I cheat the value() | 22:59 |
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| RST38h | Sts: Except that some of these functions seem to crash on this Linux =) | 22:59 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: how can you expect amixer to work then? :P | 22:59 |
| fiferboy | lbt: Do you think a setOvershoot function would solve some of the problems? | 22:59 |
| lbt | mmm sadly I think each scrollwidget needs to implement outOfBounds scrolling | 23:00 |
| RST38h | Sts: amixer works somehow, probably using some other calls (there are lots to choose from) | 23:00 |
| lbt | so QScrollArea and freinds | 23:00 |
| fiferboy | lbt: Why can't it be in qabstractslider? | 23:01 |
| Stskeeps | RST38h: do i dare to ask what kind of machine you're doing it on? :P | 23:01 |
| lbt | well, I could just put a function there... but it wouldn't fix the other issues | 23:02 |
| lbt | ok, lets do setOvershoot() and work from there | 23:02 |
| fiferboy | If you don't update the srollbar position in setOvershoot, just the value, that may help | 23:03 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: STMP3770 SoC from SigmaTel | 23:03 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: It actually has 64MB RAM installed but I can't make the second half work unfortunately | 23:03 |
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| lbt | will try that... hmm, setValueOvershoot() I think | 23:04 |
| RST38h | Stskeeps: Running EA Linux that is kinda half-baked and not supported by SigmaTel's new owner | 23:04 |
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| * Stskeeps should really try out this OMAP2/maemo-dsp pulseaudio thing | 23:09 | |
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| lbt | Stskeeps: or fix Numpy Physics in Mer | 23:16 |
| lardman|tv | Stskeeps: you got a link for that? | 23:16 |
| Stskeeps | lardman|tv: http://gitorious.org/~elmarco/pulseaudio/pa-work/commit/d92f79b8efe591a4dc184ed803859bcdf7173b46 | 23:16 |
| lardman|tv | cool | 23:17 |
| lardman|tv | sound in Mer then | 23:17 |
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| Stskeeps | yeah | 23:18 |
| lardman|tv | and some more clues as to the existing DSP tasks | 23:19 |
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| guerby | hi, is there anything new on the rumoured next nokia internet tablet since http://thenokiablog.com/2008/09/20/next-nokia-internet-tablet-some-specs-revealed/ | 23:20 |
| guerby | ? | 23:20 |
| guerby | I haven't followed nokia forums lately | 23:20 |
| lardman|tv | old news I guess, nothing new since the alpha SDK was released afaik | 23:21 |
| fiferboy | lbt: I'm heading home now. If you need something tested send it my way | 23:22 |
| guerby | lardman|tv, thx | 23:22 |
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| lbt | fiferboy: willdo - ta | 23:22 |
| guerby | lardman|tv, I assume it should be out any time now with nokia pricing n810 a 249 euros | 23:22 |
| guerby | and the sdk being out | 23:23 |
| fiferboy | Have a good weekend everyone | 23:23 |
| lardman|tv | guerby: we live in hope! | 23:24 |
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| biiter_ | plz.. where do i turnoff that bar showing at the bottom indicating keyboard input case? | 23:28 |
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| biiter_ | got it | 23:44 |
| * RST38h would like to find ALSA people and kill them slowly | 23:45 | |
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| RST38h | Except that would probably require scaling an ivory tower first | 23:45 |
| jaska | :D | 23:47 |
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