IRC log of #maemo for Saturday, 2009-05-02

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elninja__My n810 seems a little looser on the right side than the left, when the keyboard is slid out... The top/bottom half jiggle a little on the right, but not on the left... Is this normal, or is it a sign that my device was poorly assembled and may have future problems?00:01
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suihkulokkipeople think that wimax is just like wifi (fast and free), but with better coverage00:01
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jeremiah_I still think WiMax will lose to LTE.00:02
GeneralAntillesI hope the RX-51 is better put together than the N810.00:02
johnxjeremiah_, so do I at this point. but I think there might be room for competition with fixed broadband in rural areas00:03
jeremiah_johnx: Yeah, I suppose that might be an excellent way to use it.00:03
jeremiah_ But I have seen so many WiMax projects falter.00:03
johnxclearwire is doing that already with their draft-wimax network00:03
elninja__GeneralAntilles, are you saying things like i noticed are common?00:04
jeremiah_Here in 'telecom alley', they abandoned WiMax a while ago.00:04
johnxit's only compatible with their own branded wimax adapters though AFAIK00:04
GeneralAntilleselninja__, no, just an idle observation.00:04
jeremiah_johnx: That is total FAIL - they have to support off the shelf stuff to succeed.00:05
jeremiah_elninja__: I think my N810 is pretty well engineered frankly. I surprised to hear you are having problems.00:05
johnxjeremiah_, I dunno. if they're replacing/competing with DSL/cable service people kind of expect a "rent the modem" scenario00:05
* Jaffa wonders about checking ITT/talk again before bed.00:05
suihkulokkiyeah, wimax (or rather, the fixed point variant of it) will be usefull for rural broadband00:05
suihkulokkibut only when you put a wimax antenna on your roof00:06
JaffaIt's only going to depress me, isn't it (but Stskeeps' post talk intrigues me)00:06
jeremiah_johnx: True, that is definitely true.00:06
GeneralAntillesJaffa, I wasn't able to spot Stskeeps' post, just go to bed and save the depression.00:06
johnxbut yeah, they really need to get their network updated to the real wimax/mobile wimax standard00:06
* jeremiah_ Runs to read Stskeeps' talk post.00:06
johnxI just think they are seeing a lot of cost and no immediate benefit00:07
JaffaWonderfully constructive new poll "Should create and support a dark theme like the original ITT?".00:07
lcuk#my only problem with themes is having to be logged in00:08
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jeremiah_Jaffa: Yeah - I can't find Stskeeps' post either, URL?00:10
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* GeneralAntilles is starving to death.00:11
johnxthe one on cost of enabling the MBX?00:12
* Jaffa wonders if SD69 is particularly pissed off as he's not been invited to be a mod.00:14
elninja__jeremiah_, well, I haven't had problems yet. I've only had it 1 day so far, but I noticed that it feels more fragile than I was expecting from new unit.(especially with the sliding mechanism) so far I am really interested in what I can do with the device once I get some time to play with the SDK. I've been burned in the past with devices that failed due to manufacturing defects, and don't want to do something that may void my warr00:15
elninja__anty when I may need to use it.00:15
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JaffaAh, yeah - I saw Stskeeps' post on Weds. Good post indeed, Stskeeps++00:16
GeneralAntillesJaffa, either way, I sure aint inviting him. ;)00:16
* Jaffa also wonders if qgil moderating the thread is going to help matters ;-)00:16
lcukclick the thanks button in itt lol00:17
lcukwe havent incorporated irc thanks yet ;)00:17
jeremiah_elninja__: Yeah, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the quality and the usefulness of the device. :) At least I was and I hope you are too.00:17
GeneralAntilles~karma Stskeeps00:18
infobotstskeeps has karma of 100:18
lcukwould anyone apart from you remember to put the ~ before00:18
GeneralAntilles~karma Stskeeps00:18
infobotstskeeps has karma of 100:18
GeneralAntilles~karma Stskeeps00:19
GeneralAntilles~karma Stskeeps00:19
infobotstskeeps has karma of 200:19
jeremiah_~jeremiah karma00:19
jeremiah_I hate you infobot00:19
* GeneralAntilles slaps jeremiah_ with the bot manual.00:19
elninja__ <-- cool. I guess this is normal... should have googled it earlier00:20
lcukso 4 people agree and its "normal"00:20
lcukdo you have a clue?00:20
GeneralAntillesWe need mods who can split threads.00:20
elninja__lcuk, please enlighten me00:21
* luke-jr_ boycotts ITT00:22
lcukwell so far a few people in the world have swine flu, the way the media is reporting its as if we all have it00:22
lcukthats like your observation00:22
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Jaffalcuk: Obviously one or more of those people may have accounts on ITT, so I reckon swine flu is an attempt by the overlords (am I one?) to take over ITT00:25
lbtwho does irc karma?00:25
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* Jaffa considers starting a poll "Who finds themselves coming to these forums less after all the inane whining, rather than constructive action, over the change in theme?" - but that's probably not going to help00:26
* lbt wonders if #mer is part of the maemo community ;)00:26
jeremiah_Jaffa: Probably not -- but everyone involved should know they did a good job.00:26
elninja__lcuk, I came in here to ask if anyone else had experienced this. I was hoping somebody would have some info. I googled it, and on the first page were several mentions of this problem. that thread was one of them where 4 out of 4 of the posts noticed this same quirk on their device. my statement about how I should have googled it was because I can found more info on it there than I did here.00:26
jeremiah_I think th new site looks good.00:26
lcuk#mer is the technical part of the community at this point :)00:26
* lbt agreees with Jaffa and is put of iTT by the bickering...00:27
lcukim put off by the brightness00:27
lcukand lack of focus00:27
qwerty12_N800sjgadsby would be an awesme itT mod IMHO00:27
Jaffaqwerty12_N800: seen his twitter status?00:27
qwerty12_N800Jaffa: nope :)00:27
lcukelninja__, ive got 2 n810s here and the slide out drawer acts just the same as it does on both and as on my slider phones and on my kitchen drawers00:28
lbtelninja__: actually your sample is such that all you've identified is that you're not alone... OTOH, given the quick response that means it's likely a design feature .... don't worry but keep an eye on it00:28
luke-jr_Jaffa: put the poll somewhere off ITT, so those of us who don't go to ITT can vote00:28
lbtmy keyboard is absolutely rock solid though00:29
Jaffaluke-jr_: The only obvious place is, but that'd just feed the conspiracy00:29
jeremiah_Ooh, ooh, I wanna follow andre__ on Twitter!00:29
lcukif i knew how to make a poll i would make a poll asking people what poll they want to post in00:29
jeremiah_What is his handle?00:29
qwerty12_N800Jaffa: lol, thanks for the link...00:29
* Jaffa is now, honestly, looking forward to 2 weeks camping and avoiding all this stupidity.00:29
jeremiah_lcuk: Face it, you would ask about liqbase. :)00:30
lcukwhere u camping jaffa00:30
johnxlcuk, I liked the "Do you vote in polls?" poll. I think "No" won ...00:30
luke-jr_well, maybe someone should have checked that the design actually works before deploying it00:30
lcukjeremiah_, not at all i do that enough face to face :)00:30
Jaffalcuk: Normandy (well, camping ~= static Eurocamp caravan)00:30
luke-jr_Jaffa: is somewhat broken too00:30
johnxluke-jr_, fine. I'll bite: What doesn't it work on?00:30
luke-jr_johnx: the top-menu thing is screwed up across both sites00:31
jeremiah_Jaffa: Cool! You're in France? Vive la France!00:31
luke-jr_for ITT, the actual posts are on like page 300:31
johnxluke-jr_, did you submit a bug report?00:31
luke-jr_johnx: nope00:31
GeneralAntillesYeesh, broken browser.00:31
johnxluke-jr_, why?00:31
luke-jr_GeneralAntilles: most standards-compliant browser on the market00:31
lcukshame the websites dont follow standards00:32
Jaffajeremiah_: Oui, je peut parle un petit peu de francais, mais "mon fils as une allegee aux oeufs et aux lait" est difficile00:32
johnxis that arora?00:32
luke-jr_johnx: Konqueror00:32
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lcuki get to see my finger tomorrow :O00:32
GeneralAntillesIt's going to have turned into a butterfly.00:33
lcukim hoping for a stylus tip tbh00:33
lcukits gonna hurt like a bitch when they take stitches out :'(00:33
Jaffalcuk: heh00:34
GeneralAntilleslcuk, pic or it didn't happen.00:35
johnxluke-jr_, is there a reason you came to IRC to complain instead of filing a bug report?00:35
luke-jr_johnx: IRC was open00:35
lcukthats the worksafe one :)00:35
lcuki have the actual photos00:35
lcukand im taking camera tomorrow :$00:35
jeremiah_Jaffa: Merde!00:35
jeremiah_But I think allegee means "frozen underpants"00:36
lcukjohnx, its 10000000000% easier moaning in irc, we know that already00:36
jeremiah_I could be mistaken.00:36
jeremiah_Still, if you don't like eggs and milk, you're SOL in France.00:36
GeneralAntillesI want to work on Bugzilla. :(00:37
Jaffajeremiah_: true (on all counts, I *think* allergée is correct; but will check ;-))00:37
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* Jaffa will, fortunately, only have to speak & listen.00:37
Jaffa"Grande biere, s'il vous plait" :-)00:37
Jaffa"Une bouteille du vin rouge"00:38
lcukeven i understand that :D00:38
* lcuk normally needs translations into northern00:38
Jaffa"Bottl' of best, Betty"00:38
Jaffa"...and a pie"00:39
lcukno bacon?00:39
JaffaChicken and bacon pie ;-)00:40
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luke-jr_johnx: didn't expect an actual answer? :p00:40
jeremiah_Merci a vous Madame.00:40
jeremiah_Ceci delicieux.00:40
Jaffajeremiah_: tres bien00:40
johnxluke-jr_, so out of curiosity, what does konqueror get on the acid test these days?00:40
jeremiah_C'est quai? Une chien?00:40
GeneralAntillesYou crazy people want #maemo-fr. :P00:40
Jaffajeremiah_: all your French seems to conclude with swear words ;-)00:41
luke-jr_johnx: the highest score00:41
jeremiah_Jaffa: Well, you know, they are the easiest to learn. =)00:41
luke-jr_Firefox 3.0.10: 71/10000:41
johnxluke-jr_, webkit gets 100/100. Are you saying konqueror gets higher? :P00:41
luke-jr_Konqueror 4.2.2: 87/10000:41
luke-jr_Opera 9.64: 85/10000:42
luke-jr_Safari 3.2.2: 75/10000:42
luke-jr_johnx: Scm versions don't count ;)00:42
johnxluke-jr_, even if they're part of a released browser?00:42
luke-jr_I don't use scm KDE00:42
luke-jr_johnx: what released browser?00:42
Jaffajeremiah_: c'est vrai00:42
luke-jr_Wikipedia has Safari 3.2.2 as latest Webkit00:42
luke-jr_oh, sorry00:43
luke-jr_Chrome 1.0: 79/10000:43
Jaffajeremiah_: Google says "allergique" FWIW00:43
johnxluke-jr_, heh. just watched tear on my n800 get 96/10000:44
luke-jr_wtf is tear00:44
johnxlet me send you a link to the thread on itt00:45
luke-jr_johnx: I won't read it if it's on ITT00:45
jeremiah_Jaffa: I suspected alergee was a bit of Franglais. :)00:45
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johnxtry a working browser that's standards compliant like arora00:45
johnxor file a bug report00:45
luke-jr_johnx: ah, so ITT is officially only supported in non-released browsers?00:45
jeremiah_Yeah, try a working browser like friggin' pork-sandwich.00:46
Jaffaluke-jr_: Don't be dramatic; it works in firefox - there's obviously a glitch. It's hardly personal ;-)00:46
luke-jr_Firefox sucks ;)00:46
jeremiah_The Interwebs hate me.00:47
JaffaAt a first glance, my opinion of Konqueror's not much better ;-)00:47
jeremiah_That I know for sure.00:47
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GeneralAntillesjeremiah_, >:|00:47
Jaffajeremiah_: They're powered by computers, right? They all hate me.00:47
jeremiah_GeneralAntilles: Uh oh.00:47
GeneralAntillesTechnology is the worst.00:47
jeremiah_Is that emoticon meant to mean; "I am very disappointed in you."?00:47
johnxluke-jr_, it works on basically *every* other browser besides konqueror. what is the most likely explanation here?00:48
luke-jr_every other browser has a bug that it abuses? ;)00:48
luke-jr_or it has a bug that every other browser fails to expose00:48
GeneralAntillesjeremiah_, that's the internets hating you. :P00:48
johnxluke-jr_, I'm ignoring you now00:48
luke-jr_the latter case is pretty common, actually00:48
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jeremiah_GeneralAntilles: Phew! I thought you were mad at me.00:49
luke-jr_johnx: most other browsers do undefined behaviour the same00:49
luke-jr_Konqueror doesn't define undefined behaviour00:49
johnxluke-jr_, why don't you *file a bug*00:50
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luke-jr_johnx: maybe I will00:50
luke-jr_at least works00:50
GeneralAntillesjohnx, things should work or they should be fixed by telepathy, duh.00:50
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luke-jr_GeneralAntilles: is there an update to telepathy fixing that Jabber bug?00:53
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GeneralAntillesSeems like the reason most people hate orange is because they've got crappy LCDs.00:59
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johnxGeneralAntilles, so the answer is to send out new LCDs with the theme :)01:01
GeneralAntillesjohnx, I'm totally into Nokia paying for that.01:01
GeneralAntillesIPS, please!01:01
johnxnot at the expense of sending people to hackfests/summits :P01:01
johnxor sending people development machines O_o;01:02
GeneralAntillesjohnx, I was thinking at the expense of S60, personally.01:02
johnxok, works for me01:02
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GeneralAntillesI'm kinda excited about the N97, now.01:04
GeneralAntillesAssuming the low-end processor brings a lower price tag01:04
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Stskeepswhy all the highlights? :P01:04
luke-jr_Stskeeps: are you highlighting on "I"?01:05
svudoes anyone know how to get the location (supplied by carman) from jabber?01:05
johnxStskeeps, that's what happens when you say something people agree with.01:05
luke-jr_svu: eh?01:05
Stskeepsluke-jr_: no, stskeeps or sts01:06
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gnutonHi there!01:06
svuluke-jr_, carman is using my jabber account. I presume it is able to share my location, isn't it? So I would love to know how to use that feature01:06
luke-jr_svu: I wouldn't assume that XD01:07
svuluke-jr_, what is XD?01:08
GeneralAntillessvu, memory card format. ;)01:09
svubrrr. I am lost01:09
GeneralAntillessvu, first definition:
svuwhat does my question about carman have to do with card format?01:10
svuoops, I am just slow. It was just a smile, I guess:)01:11
svuwell, anyway, what exactly carman is doing in jabber. other than logging in?01:11
GeneralAntillessvu, maybe try #canola01:12
GeneralAntillesAlthough they're probably idle at the moment.01:12
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svuwhy not....01:12
GeneralAntillesOr there's the Carman mailing list.01:12
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luke-jr_svu: do you REALLY want the world to know where you are constantly?01:12
svuluke-jr_, well, my friends can have that info. why not?01:13
svu(when I gps on, of course)01:13
svuand when I am late, that is a good alibi for my wife:))01:14
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luke-jr_i c01:14
* svu just invented that kind of usage. really cool feature imho!01:15
luke-jr_patent it?01:16
luke-jr_can I have a license plz?01:16
svuwe'll negotiate it later:)01:16
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paul0how do i find out which mobile phones i can use as modem for N800?01:34
GeneralAntillesBasically anything that reasonably supports DUN.01:34
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johnxlist here, but it's far from complete:
johnxalso, it might vary by carrier for branded phones01:35
paul0thanks :)01:36
paul0i've found the Samsung Zv30, which has bluetooth and support 3G01:36
johnxif it can tether to anything else, chances are good it can tether to the n8x001:37
paul0anyway, 3G is quite expensive here, maybe i'll just get some GPRS enabled mobile01:40
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Jaffapaul0: here == ?01:55
paul0Jaffa, yes01:56
paul0Jaffa, here == Brazil01:57
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GeneralAntillesluke-jr_, you're kidding, right?01:59
luke-jr_GeneralAntilles: ?01:59
GeneralAntillesThat's not a bug report, that's a joke.01:59
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GeneralAntillesYou expect whoever you want to fix this for you to just guess what browser you're using?01:59
luke-jr_it's on the stupid titlebar02:00
GeneralAntillesIt's really not.02:00
luke-jr_it was for me :/02:00
Jaffapaul0: Ah, OK :) The specific place might have people here who could help :)02:01
luke-jr_mayeb I need to report a bug for KSnapshot too02:01
luke-jr_but how the heck did it do that? :/02:01
johnxyou also need to actually provide a description of the problem, and a proper title02:01
JaffaAnd if the bug report for KSnapshot's buggered, you'll have to report a bug against your browser... and that way recursive madness will lie ;-)02:02
johnxluke-jr_, seriously, this is the perfect way to make sure your bug isn't given any attention02:02
luke-jr_I can reproduce one minor part of the bug in Firefox 3.1 ;)02:04
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luke-jr_FWIW, Marble is not usable for driving02:05
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GAN800Awesome, more Nokia conspiracies02:11
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johnxI'd like to hear Nokia's conspiracy theories about the community for once. It's the side of the story that's never examined02:17
JaffaSit in one of the "let's just ship a bug fix containing this patch we got from the community" meetings.02:18
GeneralAntillesDamn, how the hell do I hg clone MXR/02:18
JaffaBound to be loads of them ;-)02:18
lcukif the patch is for a codebase the nokian engineers know and can verify i really dont see it as a problem02:21
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Jaffalcuk: That's because you're part of the conspiracy, dude!02:21
JaffaBloody falls over when you ask for the last page (599 according to the page) of the profile list.02:22
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* Jaffa beds as the firestorm on ITT settles down (go Reggie!)02:33
Jaffa[shock: it wasn't a conspiracy]02:33
roopeThe new theme is a lot nicer than the old one. Blah for the bickering. :)02:37
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roopePeople just hate change in general.02:38
lcukroope, it was less the colors and more the meta info gettin in the way - thats been tweaked now and i can invert my eyes and cope ;)02:39
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GeneralAntillesroope, hey, if they hate this, it's looking like they'll end up loving Maemo 5. ;)02:42
johnxGeneralAntilles, so, will we have another color change to match maemo 5? :D02:42
GeneralAntillesI sure as hell hope not.02:42
roopeMaemo 5 will be invisible.02:42
GeneralAntillesThis one was painful enough.02:42
GeneralAntillesroope, ah, going after the blind market? ;)02:42
roopeWith a huge d-pad.02:43
johnxhopefully now we can keep the same layout and people can make themes02:43
GeneralAntillesI'd love to see that braille ebook reader.02:43
johnxI'd love to see a decent d-pad02:43
luke-jr_roope: the new theme is broken02:44
roopeWell, making it darker won't fix anything.02:44
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GeneralAntillesroope, his browser doesn't like it, apparently.02:44
johnxluke-jr_, how's that bug coming along?02:45
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GeneralAntillesWho the hell thinks Wikipedia is hard to navigate? :\02:49
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Proteouswho navigates on wikipedia?02:58
ProteousI just go to a page from google02:58
Proteousgoogle is my wiki guide02:59
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sp3000I wish wikipedia was hard to navigate03:06
sp3000as it is it's all a huge slippery slope into a gaping timesink03:06
sp3000where you wake up on the other side several hours later03:07
lcukwhen i download the source with apt so i can work on it, where is the most common location to put it03:07
lcukis there a general convention03:07
GeneralAntillessp3000, ever played 5 Degrees of Jesus? :P03:07
sp3000don't think so03:07
GeneralAntillesStart with Special:Random then try to get to the article on Jesus in five clicks or less.03:08
johnxlcuk, if you apt-get source foo, then it ends up in ./03:08
lcukyeah johnx, but do ppl use a logical set of folders or just randomly drop source everywhere03:09
sp3000oh, darn, I can't start at jesus and thry to find my way to teletubbies in five steps or less? :)03:09
johnxI tend to keep a projects/mer/working directory03:09
GeneralAntillessp3000, that sounds impossible.03:10
GeneralAntillesBut I'd sure like to see it. :P03:10
lcuk /projects or ~/projects?03:10
johnxI used to have really elaborate organization in ~/ :)03:10
lcuklike i have an ~/svn on most machines then03:10
lcukeven tho i use git now03:11
johnxthat makes sense. also, remember the power of symlinks :)03:11
lcukyeah im just thinking about something03:11
GeneralAntillestimeless, ping?03:11
GeneralAntillesOr sp3000.03:11
lcuki want to build and run liqbase on all machines as i make changes03:11
lcukim thinking about running a net deamon to listen to the git commits03:12
lcukand pull down and build/run :)03:12
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lcukthe daemon might itself be a liqbase module ;)03:12
sp3000well, I got to vermin; not quite teletubbies, but, ...eh03:13
GeneralAntillessp3000, how do I hg clone MXR?03:13
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sp3000I'm not too sure where the various versions might live03:15
sp3000timeless knows of course, he'll probably be available in 19 hours or so03:15
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GeneralAntillesNow if andre__ would just get me the testzilla. . . . :P03:16
sp3000 would be one answer I bet03:17
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GeneralAntillesI need the Maemo one though for the Maemo layout.03:18
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Proteousthe snauseberries taste like snauseberries03:21
GeneralAntillesSnozzberries? Who ever heard of a snozzberry?03:23
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Xamuskis there some way to watch flash videos not from youtube?03:30
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Xamuskwith good performance?03:30
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GeneralAntillesXamusk, most of them are way too heavy.03:34
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XamuskGeneralAntilles, I just find it interesting that specialized youtube players can play them much better03:35
GeneralAntillesXamusk, Flash on Linux is awful. Flash on Linux ARM is worse.03:35
sp3000GeneralAntilles: ok, Akimbo (disambiguation) > Akimbo (band) > Seattle,_Washington > Seattle_University > Society_of_Jesus > Jesus03:35
GeneralAntillessp3000, nice.03:35
XamuskGeneralAntilles, indeed :(03:36
GeneralAntillesXamusk, maybe there's hope with HTML 5, maybe once Adobe ships official Linux ARM support. I don't know.03:36
XamuskGeneralAntilles, I don't know, since flash eats a lot of the cpu even in full-blown laptops03:37
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GeneralAntillesXamusk, Flash is pretty bad on Windows and just gets worse anywhere else.03:37
GeneralAntillesmplayer can do FLVs pretty well, but you gotta feed 'em to it somehow.03:37
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XamuskGeneralAntilles, actually, I couldn't play an flv I had downloaded in maemo's mplayer, even though it plays fine in my laptop03:38
boomresomeone have a good link about color swatch theme and all different colors for ui theme?03:39
GeneralAntillesXamusk, there was an FLV bug in one of the mplayer versions, I think.03:39
XamuskGeneralAntilles, well, I just downloaded mine from the repo today03:39
GeneralAntillesIt hasn't been updated in a while, so maybe there still is.03:39
GeneralAntillesI'm not sure.03:40
Xamuskfor now I'm converting everything :(03:40
Xamuskso I have to download in the laptop, convert, transfer and only then play :( which is pretty awful03:40
boomreany idea where i can get more info about every part in this chart03:41
boomreiam a french so i have difficult to understand every color vs every result in maemo03:41
GeneralAntillesboomre, maybe the ThemeMaker documentation?03:41
boomrei try to find a good link for complete info about this  sheme03:42
boomreno i dont find it03:42
boomrethe point is i cant figure out what colors is for what cause iam french so its hard to me03:42
boomrejust whit name is too hard03:42
boomreso i wanna find something where all color/parts is more explained03:43
GeneralAntillesI don't know of anything off-hand.03:43
Xamuskhow do I unmount the sd cards?03:44
GeneralAntillesOpen up the doors03:44
GeneralAntillesWhich works unless they're in-use.03:44
boomre+ because nothing is here for more explain i need to built a little  pictured tutorial for explain all part03:44
boomrewhit picture of a scrennshot of every part03:45
boomrein the context03:45
boomretx general03:45
boomrealways good help for you03:45
boomrei know you are a master03:45
GeneralAntillesXamusk, um, the card covers.03:45
GeneralAntillesThey've got little magnets that tell the OS when they're open.03:45
XamuskGeneralAntilles, this is quite unusual, specially for the external one03:46
GeneralAntillesXamusk, assuming that the filesystem isn't actively in use it will attempt to unmount it when you open the cover.03:47
GeneralAntillesand warn you if it fails.03:47
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* AndrewFBlack bangs head on the wall04:55
GeneralAntillesHey, I put mine through it earlier today. :P04:56
AndrewFBlackI just don't understand this whole theme thing04:57
GeneralAntillesApparently there's a conspiracy involved somehow.04:57
GeneralAntillesWould you like to join? :P04:57
AndrewFBlackDon't think they will take me on there side I'm getting attacked for changing Minmalist theme now lol04:58
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GeneralAntillesJoin the conspirators and do evil, then. ;)04:59
AndrewFBlackYou would think I picked the colors my self by the way some are acting04:59
GeneralAntillesHonestly I'd do an inverted scheme if it's not a ton of effort.05:00
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AndrewFBlackSo GeneralAntilles now that new site is out time for file hosting on maemo.org05:00
AndrewFBlackGeneralAntilles a striaght inverted colors on bottom I could do in 30 minutes05:01
GeneralAntillesProbably, I think there's actually a Midgard module that may be able to help.05:01
GeneralAntillesIf you have any particularly concrete ideas about how it should operate and the free time a wiki task would be great.05:02
GeneralAntillesIf not, I think I can hash something together this week.05:02
AndrewFBlackwhere to put it in the wiki?05:02 would be good.05:02
AndrewFBlackthats my problem with wikis I never know where to put the stuff lol05:02
GeneralAntillesStick {{task|proposed}} at the top.05:03
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GeneralAntillesThen just write up a simple outline for what you'd like to see and we can start figuring it out.05:03
GeneralAntillesMaybe put some use-cases that it'd fulfill, too.05:03
AndrewFBlackI think I might make a garage project for minimalist theme to keep track of bugs and such in it05:04
GeneralAntillesIf you want to file Minimalist bugs in Talk on b.m.o that'd be fine.05:04
GeneralAntillesSVN sounds good, though.05:04
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AndrewFBlackok I got a little something up05:28
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AndrewFBlackfound a bug in theme wish I wasn't to lazy to go post it lol05:32
GeneralAntillesAndrewFBlack, awesome, thanks. I'll try to flesh it out and advertise it a bit next week.05:32
Macerwatching serenity05:34
Macergood movie but could have been better05:34
GeneralAntillesLove that movie.05:34
Maceryeah .. the show was good05:35
Macertoo bad they cancelled it after a few episodes05:35
AndrewFBlackit mad  full season didn't like liek 1205:35
AndrewFBlacklike 12 episodes05:36
GeneralAntillesNot enough05:36
locutusto many05:36
Macerthought it was like 1505:36
Macerand the movie05:36
locutusTO MANY05:36
GeneralAntilleslocutus, Go to many?05:37
locutusGeneralAntilles: i did not like Firefly ;-)05:37
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: locutus, Go too many?05:38
AndrewFBlackI can't beleave I lost my micro sd card05:38
locutusinfobot: huh what?05:38
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* xnt notices that speeksts is stskeeps spelled backwards06:01
* xnt wonders is stskeeps is awake06:02
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* man_in_shack waves06:02
man_in_shacki have an odd issue with chat on maemo06:02
b-man~seen stskeeps06:03
infobotstskeeps is currently on #maemo. Has said a total of 42 messages. Is idling for 4h 57m 34s, last said: 'luke-jr_: no, stskeeps or sts'.06:03
man_in_shacki can send people messages and they get them fine, but when they respond it goes to a different resource (when another client is logged in)06:03
xntmis: ?06:03
xnti dont get it06:04
man_in_shackyou don't get me?06:04
xntno  I just wonder why it would do that06:05
man_in_shackit's consistent though. keeps coming up on my desktop06:05
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xnttnx = xnt spelled backwards?06:08
xnttnx = xnt spelled backwards06:09
tnxyeah, thats my nick06:09
man_in_shackmibbit is evil06:10
* speeksts watches06:10
* xnt hate mibbit06:10
xnt* hates06:10
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* xnt notices that kcahs_ni_nam is man in shack spelled backwards? imposters?06:12
* kcahs_ni_nam pokes man_in_shack06:13
* xnt is sick of these imposters06:13
* tnx shoves xnt06:14
* kcahs_ni_nam laughs06:14
* xnt kicks tnx in the stomach as he falls06:14
* tnx recovers and then stabs xnt06:15
* kcahs_ni_nam joins in06:15
* b-man joins i06:16
* xnt dies then comes back from the dead as a zombie vampire06:16
* kcahs_ni_nam stabs tnx06:17
* tnx shoots kcahs_ni_nam before he dies06:18
* kcahs_ni_nam turns into a zombe06:18
* speeksts cuts xnt's head off06:19
* xnt walks up to speeksts and chokes him to death06:19
kcahs_ni_nam~nuke everyone06:20
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at everyone ... B☢☢M!06:20
xntWTF? *dies again*06:20
xnt~nuke tnx06:20
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at tnx ... B☢☢M!06:20
xnt~nuke mibbit06:21
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at mibbit ... B☢☢M!06:21
xnt~nuke infobot06:21
b-manomg XD06:21
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at infobot ... B☢☢M!06:21
b-man~nuke himself06:21
* infobot prepares 100 missle silos, and targets them at himself ... B☢☢M!06:21
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b-man~burn himself06:22
* infobot pours gasoline all over himself, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze06:22
xnt~burn stevebalmer06:22
* infobot pours gasoline all over stevebalmer, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze06:22
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xnt~blow up microsoft06:22
* infobot blows up microsoft06:22
* xnt randomly wants to kill des^06:23
xnt~kill des^06:23
* infobot shoots a ionized fluxquark gun at des^06:23
xnt~kill everyone06:24
* infobot shoots a hyper-charged electron gun at everyone06:24
xnt~attack tnx06:24
* infobot grabs a pen, screams like she's possessed, and begins chasing tnx06:24
speeksts~attack xnt06:24
* infobot grabs a pen, screams like she's possessed, and begins chasing xnt06:24
man_in_shack~sell xnt on ebay06:26
* infobot sells xnt on ebay to a passing bunch of Ishmaelites06:26
Davide Hey I have a question, I have cloned to my SD card, but failed to create a swap partition.  I made a linux partition 1gb for the os, and 1 fat partition 1gb for storage. I now want to split that fat partition into a swap and a storage partition.06:26
radic__If I want to compile module-init-tools staticly I have to run configure withe --enable-static?06:26
* infobot humps the channel06:26
Davidehow would I do that using sfdisk and without hurtin my boot partition?06:26
xntDavide: usb or on device06:26
man_in_shackDavide, cfdisk may be a better tool for you06:27
Davideon device06:27
man_in_shackfun times06:27
xnt~sell man_in_shack on craigslist06:27
* infobot sells man_in_shack on craigslist to a passing bunch of Ishmaelites06:27
Davidehow do I get cfdisk? just apt-get install cfdisk?06:27
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b-manlol XD06:27
Davidewhat repository is it in?06:27
xntDavide: well I don't know try it06:27
xnt~attack Davide out of randomness06:28
* infobot grabs a pen, screams like she's possessed, and begins chasing Davide out of randomness06:28
xnt~attack brian06:28
* infobot grabs a pen, screams like she's possessed, and begins chasing brian06:28
Davidehey another question I am new to linux... but once I create a swap partition it will be recognized automatically as the swap?06:28
Davidethe OS will use it?06:28
xntDavide: yeah06:28
xntas far a i remember06:29
* b-man runs from infobot06:29
xnt~burn channel06:29
* infobot pours gasoline all over channel, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze06:29
xnt~burn  the channel06:29
* infobot pours gasoline all over the channel, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze06:29
* b-man jumps ship06:30
* xnt gets on a helicopter06:30
* xnt sends robotic sharks after b-man06:30
Davidexnt couldn't find package cfdisk06:30
radic__Davide: the best way for you is to create a image of an swap-partition06:30
Davideradic__ how would I do that?06:30
* b-man jumps into a jet06:30
* xnt sends the hawx squadron from hawx the game after bman06:31
Davidecan I ruin the current boot partition on the SD??06:31
DavideI want to avoid that06:31
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DavideI was trying to use sfdisk to do this but got stumped because I don't quite understand how fdisk works...06:32
Davidemy current FAT partition is mmcblk0p1, and my linux boot partition is mmcblk0p2.  When I run fdisk, it will ask me in sequence to assign sectors to the partitions.  this means I will have to re-assigne the linus partition? and then assign swap in the 3rd position mmcblk0p3??06:32
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Davideand what kind of file system is swap? is it ext2 like the linux partition?06:34
radic__dd if=/dev/zero of=swap.img bs=SIZE count=106:34
radic__mkswap swap.img06:34
radic__swapon swap.img06:34
man_in_pdaDavide, it's swap06:34
Davideradic__ could you explain what those commands do because I don't want to risk killing my boot partition...06:35
radic__Davide: replace SIZE of the wanted size in bytes of your swap...06:35
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Davideok but where will it take the space from on the card?06:35
Davideit's not gonna ruin the OS partition like that?06:35
radic__Davide: withe dd you write zeros from /dev/zero to swap.img, bs limits the size of swap.img06:35
radic__withe mkswap you create the swap"filesystem" in swap.img06:36
radic__and with swapon you "mount" the swap06:36
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radic__that's my preffered way to get a swap partition if I need more space oder If I fergot to create it06:37
Davideradic__ what do you mean "you write zeros from /dev/zero to swap.img"?  and I understand limiting the size, but where will it take the space from on the card? how do I know it won't partition from the wrong spot?06:38
Davideright now there is the fat partition mmcblk0p1 from sector 1-3000006:38
Davideand the linux 83 partition mmcblk0p2 from 30001-end of the card06:38
radic__Davide: /exec -o df -hTa | grep swap.img06:39
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Davidewhat will that do?06:39
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radic__withe df you see the used space of the mounted filesystem, but it wasn't for you06:40
radic__I fergot to remove your nick...06:40
Davideoh ok I'll ignore that then :)06:41
Davidelet me explain what I was trying to do.06:42
radic__cat: /proc/swap: No such file or directory06:42
radic__/home/radic/test.img                    file4920-106:42
radic__it's a 512000 byte swap-file06:42
Davideradic__ with sfdisk if I just run it on the whole card it will ask partition by partition to declare the sector size... if I go through them again that will ruin my OS partition correct?06:43
Davideso I was trying sfdisk /dev/mmcblk0 -N1 which only edits the first partition06:43
Davideand I was gonna make that idk 1,15000 to be storage for example06:44
Davidethen with sfdisk /dev/mmcblk0 -N3 that edits the 3rd partition I was gonna declare that as 15001,30000 to be swap06:44
DavideI'm following the "Partition" page from the wiki on  for the fat partition it says to format with the command mkdosfs /dev/mmcblk0p106:45
Davideand for the linux partition it says to format with mke2fs /dev/mmcblk0p206:45
radic__create a swap-file instand of a partition06:45
Davideso for swap I would just format with mkswap /dev/mmcblk0p306:46
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Davideoh the image file? is that better?06:46
Davidewhat's the difference?06:46
radic__Davide: the the compete /dev/mmcblk0p3 is a swap-partition and all data are going to lose06:47
Davideradic__ well as long as I'm taking from the Fat partition sectors I dont care because that partition is empty06:47
Davideso but if I use dd if=/dev/zero of=swap.img bs=512000 count=106:48
Davidethen it will just create a swap image file that is 512MB in size?06:48
Davideor kb yes :P06:48
Davidebut help me with the exact command how do I specifically tell it to use that card? instead of /dev/zero I use /dev/mmcblk0 ?06:49
Davideor /dev/mmcblk0p1 more specifically?06:50
radic__if= is the sourece06:50
radic__of= the target06:50
radic__and you fill the swap.img withe zeros06:50
Davideso the source would be that correct /dev/mmcblk0p1  which is my current FAT partition06:50
radic__if you use if=/dev/hda you fill the of= withe the data of hda06:52
radic__withe dd you can create a exact image of a partition or a disk06:52
* xnt is back06:53
* xnt reads the irc log06:53
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man_in_pdalogs are fun06:54
Davideradic__ and this won't erase any data right?06:55
Davideit will just create a file06:55
xntDavide: and btw just be careful with the dd commands you get on the forums you could just write zeros to your hdd/sd, but radic__'s command is correct06:57
Davidexnt I'm trying to understand exactly what I'm doing sorry guys if I"m thick, just new to this.  So with this command dd if=/dev/mmcblk0p1 of swap.img bs 512000 count=106:58
DavideI will create an image swap file on my current FAT partition which is mmcblk0p106:58
radic__xnt: on a mounted partition too?06:58
Davideis that correct?06:58
radic__Davide: it will work, but why you will write the first 512000 bytes of /dev/mmcblk0p1 to your swap.img06:59
radic__fill the file withe zeros07:00
Davideso that will automatically fill the file with zeros?07:00
Davideoh if I write dd if=/dev/zero of=swap.img bs 512000 count=107:01
Davidethat will fill the file with zeros?07:01
Davidebut how will it know to create this from the mmcblk0p1 partition?07:02
DavideI must be misunderstanding :(07:02
radic__I give up...07:03
Davideradic__ I'm sorry but I'm new and it is unclear, knowing what I told you about the name of my partition and that's where I want to create teh swap... can you write the exact command I would personally need to enter for it to do this?07:04
DavideI apologize07:04
radic__play a littele bit withe dd but DO NOT use any device for of=07:04
radic__needs someone the module-init-tools-3.8?07:06
Davidethanks anyway07:06
Davidewhen I enter "dd if=/dev/zero of=swap.img bs=512000 count=1" it says dd: can't ope '/dev/ZERO': No such file or directory07:13
Davidecan't open*07:13
Davideradic__ I'm sorry I'm totally clueless, I know it seems trivial to you but it's unclear to me still what I'm supposed to enter.  I have no experience at all with these commands, and I don't understand what context they have to be used in.07:16
Davidexnt how would the swap file be created in that storage partition with that command?07:24
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b-manhay, panguinbait!07:25
penguinbaithey b-man07:25
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b-manwhat's up?07:26
xnthey pb hi!07:26
penguinbaitcausing trouble :)07:26
xntpenguinbait: I remember when I fell asleep while installing kde on my n810, and waking up to the startup sound :P07:27
penguinbaitam I the only one who keeps going to and hitting refresh?07:28
penguinbaitnice: xnt07:28
penguinbaitwas it worth the wait?07:28
xntpb: yeah07:28
xntloved it07:28
tank-manDavide, did you type zero in lower or upper case?07:28
xntI want to see kde4 but it would be too slow :(07:28
penguinbaitI can't wait for the faster processer and hopefull more memory07:29
* b-man is working on an update to the original Android port btw :)07:29
xntitt works fine here in ny07:29
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Davidetank-man not sure I went back to the other boot partition and am fiddling with sfdisk... the case matters? should it be lowercase or uppercase?07:29
tank-manyes case matters07:29
xntvandenoever: its 12:30:AM here07:30
vandenoeveris there a virtualbox image for starting maemo development? (i'm on a 64 bit machine)07:30
xntoh neverminf07:30
tank-manmost likely it should be lowercase07:30
b-manit's 11:58pm here07:30
Davidetank-man can you help me understand what /dev/zero is? that is what causes zeros to be written to the swap.img file?07:30
xntDavide: linux is case  sensitive07:30
penguinbait12:30am here07:30
vandenoeverxnt: hooray for worldwide projects, i hope your next morning may be good07:30
tank-man/dev/zero is a file with zeros in it07:30
penguinbaitb-man where the hell are u07:31
DavideI see07:31
xnthe in chicago07:31
xntim in ny07:31
xntpb where are you?07:31
xntoh nvm bmans in ohio07:31
penguinbaitI am in michigan, and its 12:3007:31
Davidetank-man so when I type that line dd if=/dev/zero of=swap.img bs 512000 count=1 how will the system know where to create the swap.img file?07:31
b-manpenguinbait: i'm in Bowling Green Ohio07:31
penguinbaititsnot 11:59 in Chicago07:31
penguinbaitor ohio07:31
* b-man 's clock is off07:31
penguinbait30 minutes07:32
vandenoeverGeneralAntilles: thanks, i'll try it on my virtualbox07:32
b-manyeah XP07:32
* xnt has internet time :)07:32
penguinbaitwhere in OH07:32
tank-manDavide, maybe it might make it in the current directory07:32
penguinbaitI am near Flint, MI07:32
b-manBowling Green - south of Toledo07:32
xntim in New City07:32
penguinbaitnot too far07:32
* b-man use to live in Dermingham michigan07:33
Davidetank-man so I would have to go into the SD card's other partition space first? otherwise it will create it on my os partition?07:33
* xnt went to washinton once07:33
penguinbaitI cant wait to get back to cedar point this summer, I took my kids for the first time laast year, my youngest is finally 4 foot tall :)07:33
b-mani was born in michigan ;)07:33
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penguinbaitwhere abouts07:34
xntpb: how old are your kids im 1407:34
tank-manDavide, you can modify that command to specify where you want swap.img to be created07:34
xntb-man is 1607:34
Davidetank-man how?07:34
penguinbaitMy kids are 10 11 14 1607:34
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b-manpenguinbait: royalaok07:34
fireunbusy penguin07:34
b-manawsome :)07:34
tank-man dd if=/dev/zero of=/media/mmc1/swap.img bs 512000 count=107:35
penguinbait, not for the last 10 years, I finally figured out what caused that07:35
Davidetank-man :) ok thanks!07:35
Davidewhat does the count=1 stand for?07:35
Davidejust curious07:35
tank-manDavide, the man page for dd will tell you more. you can look at the man page with the command "man dd"07:36
penguinbaitthe number of times it will read/write the 51200007:36
* xnt imagines itt school, with stskeeps, pb, johnx as the teachers :P07:36
xntmer class07:36
b-manpenguinbait: how is it up there, i herd you guys got some sever weather last week07:36
xntkde class07:36
penguinbait, just lots of water07:36
xntb-man: it rained all day today07:36
b-mansame here07:36
penguinbaitlake in the back and side yard, I have a pump running for the last three days07:37
b-manit was 86 F a fuew days ago here xD07:37
xntyeah it was sooo hot here07:37
penguinbaitWe needed the water though, the lake levels have been dripping for the last 8-10 years07:37
xntonly the library have ac;s07:37
man_in_pdaF Farehnheit!07:38
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b-manpenguinbait: what do you have planned for this summer btw? - i'm possibly going to see the last shuttle launch07:40
man_in_pdaC is for Celcius, that's good enough for me!07:41
penguinbaithehe, I usually spend a few weeks camping, but all I have planned this summer, is a Grateful Dead Concert on July 4th :)07:41
xntok guys im going to sleep, my parents will probably pull the plug on my comp if they wake up, ( im  running updates on my cloud)07:41
b-manpenguinbait: awsome :)07:42
b-mansee ya tomorrow xnt :)07:42
man_in_pdaso who are the ungrateful dead?07:42
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penguinbaitI followed the dead for a few years in the 1990's until Jerry died in 9507:43
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penguinbaitthen I got a job and quit sucking down all the nitros07:43
penguinbaitwa wa wa wa wa wa wa wa wa07:43
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penguinbaitMy oldest daughter was riding my shoulders at the last dead concert with Jerry Garcia, shes was <107:45
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* b-man is trying to re-design the original android port btw :)07:47
b-mani'm adding components from NITdroid07:48
vandenoeveris there anything special bout the scratchbox packages from or will the ones from $distro do?07:48
b-manpb: was that back in 93?07:49
penguinbaitI honestly never looked at android from the first time I helped out., my website got 2800 hits last month on /android.img.bz207:50
penguinbaitis that even usable anymore?07:50
b-manyes :)07:50
penguinbaitoh ")07:50
penguinbaitoh :)07:51
Davideradic__, tank-man COOL it worked, if I want to eliminate or change the swap at anytime do I simply delete that file and run the commands again?07:51
b-manpb: arn't you running that site from a cable modem?07:51
penguinbaitthat was actually from, I pay 90$ a year for hosting07:52, os my cable modem07:52
penguinbaityeah it looks like it got 2152 hits from also07:54
radic__Davide: yes07:54
penguinbaitwebalizer graphs are the only current graphs07:54
* b-man wished there was a bootmenu that was compatible with NITDROID07:54
tank-manDavide, before deleting you should stop using the swap07:55
penguinbait, I honestly have resigned myself to no real updated until I get new hardware07:55
radic__tank-man: you think he dosn't do swapoff before deleting?07:55
Davidetank-man, radic__, I didn't know of the existence of swapoff, but thanks.  I actually accidentally created a 512kb swap like an dummy LOL and I just deleted it without doing swapoff.  THen I just created a new swap file with the same name and 512MB size. and turned it back on etc... seems to work fine.  Could I have caused some deeper issues with that?07:58
luke-jr_Davide: you did swapoff before making the 512 MB swap file08:00
luke-jr_so you're ok08:00
DavideI didn't do swapoff at all luke-jr_08:00
penguinbaitNo, Davide, any problems caused by that would go away on a reboot.  IT is possible your running system could bug out, but again 1 reboot should fix any possibility of that08:00
luke-jr_Davide: then you couldn't have make a new partition08:00
luke-jr_or are we talking files?08:01
luke-jr_in which case, the 512 KB file still exists until you swapoff08:01
luke-jr_even if you removed its filename08:01
luke-jr_Davide: filenames are not files ;)08:02
luke-jr_files are refcounted08:02
luke-jr_they only get deleted when nothing is using them08:02
luke-jr_you can have more than one filename point to the same file, for instance08:02
luke-jr_echo test > a ; ln a b ; echo hi >> b; cat a08:02
DavideI see when I delete the file from file manager I am deleting that name but the system is still looking at those allocated bytes?08:03
luke-jr_Davide: the file still exists08:03
radic__if I remove in the /etc/fstab the noexec option for /dev/mmcb1k0p1 then I can execute files on it?08:04
luke-jr_radic__: depends on filesystem08:04
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radic__luke-jr_: vfat08:04
Davideso each time I reboot the swap file gets disabled?08:04
Davideit's disabled looks like08:05
luke-jr_radic__: vfat doesn't have an execute bit, so you might need more options to auto-enable it08:05
penguinbaitNo radic, I do not think that will make any difference08:05
radic__the internal card is withe ext2 formated08:05
luke-jr_Davide: btw, you never want to put swap internal08:05
luke-jr_Davide: and avoid swap external too08:05
penguinbaityou can create a file on vfat and format it as ext and mount it and then execute files from it08:05
luke-jr_penguinbait: there is some mount option to make them all +x08:06
Davideluke-jr_ on the external card? oh that's what I had done08:06
luke-jr_Davide: swap is bad for flash08:06
penguinbaitluke, never seen that??08:06
Davideluke-jr_ so where would you create the swap file?08:06
penguinbaitnot on vfat08:06
Davideso create a swap partition penguinbait?08:06
penguinbait, I guess I never tried to fix it, just worked around it?08:06
Davideso it's better to create a swap partition than a file in vfat?08:07
luke-jr_Davide: vfat SD08:07
luke-jr_Davide: but like I said, avoid swap if you can08:07
penguinbaitDavid, sorry what are you trying to do?08:07
penguinbaitwhat do you mean avoid swap if you can?08:08
luke-jr_penguinbait: radic__: fmask=0666 I think08:08
penguinbaitYuo want a swap partition08:08
luke-jr_penguinbait: swap will ruin the SD card faster than normal use08:08
Davidemy original question was the fact that I have cloned to the internal sd card and created a 1gb approximately of vfat on the first part of the partition and the rest to the OS08:08
penguinbaitor swap file08:08
luke-jr_swap file on vfat will ruin it slower than swap partition08:08
Davideand I was wanting to create a swap in that VFAT08:08
Davideor part of that VFAT08:08
penguinbaitOR at least in my three years of doing this I have never ruined an SD/MMC/ card08:09
DavideI followed the wiki guide on maemo.org08:09
Davideso now I have 2 partitions08:09
Davidemmcblk0p1 0,30000,608:09
Davideand mmcblk0p2 30001,,08:09
luke-jr_penguinbait: great, how often do you use swap?08:09
penguinbaitluke not really, actually there is an extra memory buffor when it runs on vfat, but either way, you just need swap08:09
Davidethe first is VFAT the second is 8308:09
luke-jr_penguinbait: vfat does some wear levelling08:10
Davideso how can I split that vfat partition in half and have half be swap and half be storage?08:10
penguinbaiton my tablet08:10
luke-jr_penguinbait: also, flash cards are optimized/designed for vfat08:10
penguinbaitas soon as its enabled it starts using it, at the first website08:10
luke-jr_Davide: tbh, I'd use a file08:10
GeneralAntillesDavide, you don't need more than 128MB of swap.08:11
luke-jr_you *can't use* more than 128 MB of swap ;p08:11
penguinbaittype free in xterm and you will see it used08:11
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GeneralAntillesluke-jr_,  that's clearly not true.08:11
Davidewhy not? can you elaborate?08:11
luke-jr_GeneralAntilles: from experience, I've seen 128 MB swap the limit before watchdog resets from swappiness08:11
penguinbaitIf you do not have swap enabledyou can hang and crash more often08:11
luke-jr_maybe the high performance SD patch helps a bit, not sure08:12
Davideso virtual memory would be more than enough?08:12
penguinbaitI have seen as high as 256mb swap before death08:12
penguinbaityes David08:12
luke-jr_penguinbait: hmm, maybe not actively swapping then?08:12
GeneralAntilles1.5x RAM is a good guideline for swap on most things, but our flash is slow enough that 1:1 is recommended.08:13
penguinbaitfire up KDE, and tell me if your activly swaping?08:13
DavideI mean if using more swap like 512 that would not mean that you could run for example more applications at once?08:13
luke-jr_my N810 is building Python right now08:13
luke-jr_penguinbait: IIRC, no08:13
luke-jr_well, Python compile + KDE would active-swap, no dobut08:13
luke-jr_but just KDE doesn't08:13
luke-jr_Davide: it's not practical to use that much08:13
penguinbaitfire up konquorer08:13
luke-jr_penguinbait: Konqueror is preloaded ;)08:14
penguinbaitand kmail08:14
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luke-jr_kmail will do it08:14
penguinbaitand konsole08:14
penguinbaitand maemomapper08:14
luke-jr_I wish I could replace plasma08:14
luke-jr_I don't think Maemo Mapper is ported08:14
Davideluke-jr_ but are there physical limitations that cause instability or something like that? or do you just mean that I won't likely use more than that much memory?08:14
luke-jr_penguinbait: Maemo Mapper forces swapping even with Maemo08:14
luke-jr_by itself08:14
luke-jr_Davide: swapping is slow08:15
luke-jr_Davide: before you hit 512 MB swap use, the system will get so slow the CPU assumes it crashed08:15
penguinbaitall maemo apps are available under my kde08:15
luke-jr_and the watchdog will reboot it08:15
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luke-jr_penguinbait: I don't even have GTK+ installed ;)08:15
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Davideluke-jr_ I see I guess I just don't know how swapping works... I don't understand what the system does exactly when it swaps08:16
luke-jr_Davide: it copies something in memory to the swap file/partition08:16
GeneralAntillesDavide, it uses mass storage devices as RAM, basically.08:16
luke-jr_then when it needs that memory again, it reads it back08:16
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Davideand the reason it would become so slow like you say arises from what?08:16
penguinbaitDavid, it take memory and puts it on disk, to make room for more important insctructions08:16
luke-jr_yes, SD read/write is slow08:16
luke-jr_very slow compared to real RAM08:17
luke-jr_so for 512 MB swap, you'd need to basically read and write a full 128 MB four times per cycle08:17
luke-jr_not exactly, but summarizing08:17
penguinbaityes luke-jr, but it has been my experience with some type of swap, systems will crash more often08:17
luke-jr_penguinbait: that's when you run out ;)08:18
Davideoh so the size of the swap determines how much data has to be written each cycle?08:18
luke-jr_Davide: no, the amount of swap you use08:18
luke-jr_and unused swap is usually just a waste08:18
GeneralAntillespenguinbait, it's a fine line to walk between OOM killings and watchdog killings.08:18
penguinbaitwithout swap, you could run out and die just by going to http://internettablettalk.com08:19
penguinbaitat least for a few more days08:19
GeneralAntillesMaybe on the crappy old theme, but it's much lighter now.08:19
penguinbaitGA, have you had any card failures?08:19
Davideso I would not be able to run Maemo-mapper, canola, xchat, Openoffice 2.4, pidgin, and browse the internet all at the same time :D08:20
* luke-jr_ wonders how/if one would notice a failure08:20
luke-jr_Davide: you might be able to if you patch Maemo up ;)08:20
luke-jr_eg, have it send SIGSTOP to background programs08:20
GeneralAntillesluke-jr_,  same way you notice a drive failure.08:20
penguinbaitI can honestly say I bet I have read/written more data to their SD cards than most people, with never one failure08:20
GeneralAntillesSuddenly it stops working.08:20
* b-man starts to compile a decompiler on his tablet08:20
luke-jr_penguinbait: SD card brand matters, also08:21
penguinbaitI am all ingston08:21
luke-jr_higher quality SD cards might do better wear levelling than others08:21
penguinbaitI am all Kingston08:21
luke-jr_mine are all lowest bidder ;)08:21
penguinbaitoh and one San Disk08:21
luke-jr_b-man: ARM decompiler?08:21
Davideluke-jr_ I see, there would be no benefit to having a 512MB swap file08:21
GeneralAntillesNo, higher-quality cards have more durable NAND.08:21
luke-jr_I have Lexas and A-data08:21
b-manluke-jr: kinda08:22
luke-jr_b-man: link? :D08:22
penguinbaityou get what you pay form there is a reason they come with a lifetime warranty :)08:22
b-manluke-jr: i'm building it right now XD08:22
penguinbaitdavid, 256 is plenty08:22
luke-jr_penguinbait: I wish "lifetime" was defined as the owner's life ;)08:22
luke-jr_b-man: it has no website?08:23
* luke-jr_ ponders whether he is better off decompiling gpsdriver or just analyzing the protocol08:23
GeneralAntillesluke-jr_, sure, you can have that if you want to pay $500 for an 8GH SD card.08:23
infobotGeneralAntilles meant: luke-jr_, sure, you can have that if you want to pay $500 for an 8GB SD card.08:24
penguinbaithas anyone in here had failures, and if so what brand?08:24
luke-jr_I suspect a forum thread would be better suited to that question08:25
luke-jr_or a poll08:25
penguinbaitI have started enough polls lately08:25
luke-jr_I've only had miniSD cards for 3 months, so I can't comment :p08:25
penguinbaitchirp chirp08:25
penguinbaitGA, any failures?08:26
luke-jr_ <-- most of what I know08:26
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luke-jr_based on reverse engineering of flash usb sticks08:27
penguinbaitEven during the infamous data corruption bug, the hardware always remained reusable08:27
penguinbaitat least mine did08:27
penguinbaitremember that bugger08:28
radic__how can I copy / without fallowing any links and exclude other partitions?08:28
penguinbaitthat had me as fired up as these latest turn of events08:28
luke-jr_radic__: mkdir /tmp/rootfs; mount -o bind / /tmp/rootfs; rsync -a /tmp/rootfs/ /target/08:29
luke-jr_might want to use something other than /tmp/rootfs so you don't accidentally delete rootfs ;)08:30
radic__luke-jr_: and from /target/ I can create a jffs2 image and flashe it as rootfs image?08:31
luke-jr_radic__: uhh, not 100% sure on that one08:31
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radic__hmm, my new kernel isn't booting08:42
radic__is there a way to show the bootmessages instand of the default startup-screen?08:42
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vandenoeveri'm trying out fremantle and get only a black xephyr screen after running start08:55
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vandenoeveralso errors about dbus not working08:55
keesjx86 or arm target?09:02
keesjdid you set the DISPLAY variable ?09:02
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vandenoeverkeesj: arm and yes09:05
vandenoeverthat is, i'm running in scratchbox on x6409:06
keesjI haven't tried the arm one , i know the x86 work on x6409:07
keesj(I don't know if it works on the arm target)09:08
vandenoeverkeesj: this might be a problem: (Connection ":1.53" is not allowed to own the service "org.x.config.display3" due to security policies in the configuration file)09:11
keesjyou use -ac right?09:12
vandenoever-ac ?09:13
vandenoeverah, yes09:13
vandenoeverin xephyr09:13
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boomreany idea where i can find something like that  but in french version09:15
keesjvandenoever: I give up :p09:17
* Stskeeps yawns09:17
RST38hYou won't09:17
RST38hThese words appear to be attribute names. They will be the same in either English or French version.09:18
boomrebut i need to translate for understanf good what is what09:18
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vandenoeverkeesj: i'm looking at security setting now ...09:23
radic__good morning qwerty1209:23
qwerty12hi radic__09:24
radic__qwerty12: is there a way to show the bootmessages instand of the default boot-screen?09:25
qwerty12infobot: boot-messages is
infobotokay, qwerty1209:25
radic__how can I see any kind of help of the infobot?09:27
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radic__qwerty12: where can I get fanoush's initfs?09:47
qwerty12But if Mer ever tickles your fancy, get Stskeeps' one09:48
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radic__qwerty12: URL?09:57
qwerty12I can't remember it09:57
johnxit's available as part of the mer bootmenu installer09:59
radic__Stskeeps: you are awake?09:59
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johnxanyone see the kickstand info on the N86? looks like a harbinger of tablets to come :)10:02
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GAN800Looks worse than the 770 stand10:03
johnxyes, but now we know what kind of thing the "kickstand open" flag will be used for10:03
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luke-jr_johnx: IMO, the kickstand is mostly useless10:07
Stskeepskickstand is wonderful.10:07
luke-jr_not practical to type with it10:07
johnxyou're doing it wrong10:07
luke-jr_it just slides backward10:07
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johnxit's not for when you're typing...10:08
luke-jr_when it's sitting there just looking pretty? :p10:08
johnxreading web pages, listening to music, reading a book, watching a movie, just setting it on your desk and letting it check mail10:09
luke-jr_maybe I was just too spoiled by the Zaurus10:10
qwerty12Yes, I can see how the kickstand would hurt someone dearly10:10
GAN800The kickstand is possibly the greatest thing ever invented10:11
qwerty12Indeed, I can't imagine using mplayer w/out it10:11
johnxluke-jr_, problem with the zaurus is when you tap on the screen the screen folds back. problem with the kickstand is that typing pushes the whole thing back10:12
johnxno single solution...10:12
GAN800johnx, sure there is, rubber!10:12
luke-jr_johnx: add a stop-lock point to the screen10:12
radic__why is the kernel not booting whene it's configured withe "make n800_defconfig"?10:12
luke-jr_johnx: actually, I take that back, in practice my Zaurus seems to slide too :/10:13
radic__why nokia_2420 and not n800?10:13
luke-jr_so I guess the usability difference was just on the go typing10:13
qwerty12Because it works? :)10:13
radic__qwerty12: what's the differences?10:13
qwerty12Dunno, do a diff yourself and find out.10:14
luke-jr_I can't wait for 2.6.30 :p10:15
luke-jr_it has support for the wifi mainlined10:15
luke-jr_p54spi driver10:17
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GAN800Someone want to explain to the idea why there are 3 different names for what is apparently 2 drivers?10:19
luke-jr_GAN800: ?10:19
luke-jr_if you mean wifi, 3 different codebases10:20
luke-jr_cx.. used blobs10:20
luke-jr_stlc was open source, specific to N8x010:20
luke-jr_p54spi is a variant of a single prism54 codebase10:21
luke-jr_so the final driver is not tied so much to N8x010:21
luke-jr_and is shared by USB and PCI drivers for the same chip10:21
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lcuk810\me wakes up10:49
* lcuk810 wakes up even10:50
johnxhey lcuk810 :)10:50
johnxhuh. guess it is :)10:51
lcuk810too early10:51
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lcuk810was woke up to the sound of drumsticks on glass table10:52
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johnxsomeone working on a new solo piece?10:53
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lcuk810johnx yeah youngest10:54
johnxthought so :)10:55
lcuk810but its not new him playng, its just new table10:55
lcuk810hard to fingertype on 81010:55
lcuk810cant wait to get this e.t. finger off10:55
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johnxso I still don't know the whole actually broke your finger like that by jabbing it at a touchscreen?10:57
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* johnx obviously missed something :)10:58
lcuk810no i reached up to the handle of a big glass door10:58
lcuk810it was locked10:58
lcuk810so i pressed what i thought was a unlock button (like all the other doors were locked but manual10:59
lcuk810and reached back for the handle10:59
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* johnx shrugs11:07
lcuk810johnx lol i didnt notice maemo had closed lol11:08
AStormwhich FS is recommended for immc?11:08
lcuk810i just carried on typing11:08
Stskeepsext2/ext3 doesn't matter :P11:08
thuxmorning after mayday11:08
lcuk810i had ext211:08
johnxAStorm, depends on what you want to do.11:08
AStormStskeeps, I'd prefer btrfs w/ compression, but unfortunately it's not available11:09
AStormand I'd need later kernel for it11:09
johnxsharing with windows/camera -> vfat. using with linux -> ext2/311:09
AStormjohnx, immc. a chip11:09
lcuk810sts would u paste the bits fom #liqbase where i finished my storylol11:09
AStormthat's not meant to be shared excluding hotair desoldering11:09
infobotjohnx meant: sharing with windows/ -> vfat. using with linux -> ext2/311:09
Stskeeps[09:59] <lcuk810> ed outwards automatically11:10
Stskeeps[09:59] <lcuk810> sliicing the end of my finger bettween the handle and the  central metal pillar11:10
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lcuk810yeah johnx hurt muchly11:10
AStormhmmh, so no better fs more tuned to flash available?11:10
johnxI believe it11:10
AStorm(esp. to slow flash like that one)11:11
GeneralAntilleslcuk810, they covering your medical expenses?11:11
johnxAStorm, not that's tuned to dealing with flash that has a hardware block device translator on top11:11
AStormjohnx, yeah, well11:11
aquatixlcuk810: ick, good luck with your finger11:11
AStormpity I can't use btrfs in SSD mode11:11
AStorm(and compression, which really helps)11:11
johnxyou can actually use btrfs on a block device?11:11
AStormmaybe once I up the kernel in mer11:11
AStormjohnx, uhm... it's a normal filesystem?11:12
lcuk810yes gen, every single person went above and beyond their jobs to help me as much as possible11:12
johnxah, didn't know much about it :)11:12
johnxheh. light bedtime reading? :)11:12
lcuk810and there have been changes made since to prevent it in future11:12
AStormhopefully it wasn't too painful11:12
StskeepsAStorm: now that i'm actually not busy with watching a movie with my gf, DSP protocol in ESD:
GeneralAntilleslcuk810, ah, too bad.11:13
AStormStskeeps, throw that at pulseaudio devs11:13
johnxGeneralAntilles, hoping to recommend your cousin who just happens to be a lawyer? :P11:13
AStormthey might be able to implement it in split second11:13
AStormI'm not right now :-(11:13
lcuk810gan, we joke that the speed of corporate change is slow, but in this instance the responce has been tremendous11:13
AStormeven the Mer install is more caused by necessity11:13
Stskeepsah, any specific need?11:14
AStorm+    // Read the junk11:14
AStorm+    dsp_read_junk()11:14
* AStorm loves meaningful comments11:14
lcuk810what does that function do?11:14
AStormhell if I know11:15
GeneralAntillesReads the junk, duh.11:15
AStormI guess that DSP still has some stuff in it, or maybe it's some flag update11:15
AStormor whatever11:15
AStormbut it's not self-explanatory11:16
lcuk810gan, example of above and beyond, the receptionist at the hotel apologised! i think on behalf of the entire country :$11:16
* Stskeeps tries to locate the dsp protocol stuff11:16
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lcuk810but my hand will get better and i will recver and ill always have a reminder of my first trip to finland :)11:18
AStormheh, bad reminder11:18
Meiz_n810Wth? If i set xkbmap layout to "de" ä and ö starts working O_o11:18
* Meiz_n810 worders why they aren't working with fisenoda layout11:19
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lcuk810astorm i said i would give my right hand to go to nokia, when i said it i didnt think it would be taken literally11:19
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johnxlcuk810, that was just a downpayment ...11:20
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* lcuk810 cowers11:21
lcuk810thats scary11:21
johnxyeah, dunno what they've got planned for me. I mean I only have the 3 hands on me and a couple of spares in the closet...11:21
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lcuk810forget thee dpad, that about a nokia 1 handed keyboard lol11:22
Stskeepsjohnx: cced my answers to you11:23
lcuk810gan i still havent charged this 810 up11:23
johnxStskeeps, thanks. I'll answer those and send them out tomorrow.11:23
* johnx can't be trusted to represent *anyone* this late at night :)11:23
johnx'night all11:23
Stskeepspractice for jetlag for copenhagen ;)11:24
lcuk810gnite johnx11:24
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GAN800lcuk810, liking the router, then? :P11:24
lcuk810no it keeps dropping the desktop11:24
Stskeepsthat's a neat photo11:24
lcuk810the adhoc was rocksteady11:25
GAN800lcuk810, how far away is it?11:25
Stskeepsjohnx: hang on for a sec if you're not gone yet11:25
johnxstill here11:25
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lcuk810less than 10foot11:25
GAN800lcuk810, isn't the desktop wired anyway?11:25
lcuk810desktop wired to internet11:25
lcuk810wifi to internal lan11:26
Stskeepsjohnx: (and to the rest of you)11:26
* johnx claps11:27
johnxon some devices character choice for user name is slightly restricted ...11:27
thuxStskeeps: is it your device?11:28
lcuk810so change your name!!11:28
Stskeepsthux: no, goshawk's11:28
GAN800Stylin' vkb. What's that, Chinese? :P11:28
* thux wonders when manufacturers start to send devices to mer devs11:28
lcuk810i like the left hand butttons11:28
GAN800Stskeeps, how's the cellular work? Just drop-in?11:29
lcuk810shit even11:29
StskeepsGAN800: probably - we havent' gotten that far in11:29
johnxGAN800, sorry? did you just say you were making a layout that works in portrait mode? :D11:29
GAN800johnx, pfff11:29
johnxGAN800, I'll cover you in terms of council duties for a while. :> trust me ...11:30
GAN800johnx, ahaha, you have no idea what you're volunteering for there. :P11:30
GAN800The vkb programing would probably be more fun these days.11:30
GAN800Is the Neo stylus driven?11:30
lcuk810"covering someone in council duties" sounds more like bukkake11:31
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Stskeeps(or touch)11:31
GAN800I still think a Grafiti clone would be really awesome for portrait stylus devices.11:31
JaffaMorning, all11:32
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lcuk810astorm is working on hwr11:32
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* lcuk810 has bits too11:32
sciboticIs there a way to set the tablet to use a user account other than "user" by default?11:32
lcuk810mornin tangarine11:32
lcuk810not by default, no11:33
GeneralAntillesActually, how hard would it be to just drop the numpad and add a line of numbers up top?11:33
Stskeepsscibotic: maemo is surprisingly hardcoded to user11:33
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: probably not hard, but i'm an idiot at GTK :P11:33
sciboticBugger. Well the internal SDHC card I'm using already has a filesystem setup for a particular user and I'd rather not butcher the permissions.11:34
AStormGeneralAntilles, hmmh?11:34
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lcuk810mornin lbt11:34
AStormas to the graffiti, it's weak11:35
AStormI can do better hwr than that already...11:35
AStormsoon, I'll make the first preview release11:35
* lcuk810 scrrolls11:35
AStorm(w/o X bindings though)11:35
GeneralAntillesGrafiti is faster than hwr for smaller screens.11:35
AStormfaster? as in, what it is other than hwr? :P11:36
GeneralAntillesProper HWR11:36
AStormit's special kind of symbols11:36
GeneralAntillesNot shorthand11:36
lcuk810explain difference between hwr and graffiti plz11:36
AStormah, well11:36
AStormit's *proper* hwr then11:36
GeneralAntilleslcuk810, no, I'm in technical-laziness at the moment.11:36
AStormthe hardest part is UI stuff11:36
AStormthere is no good binding, including hildon11:36
lcuk810was talkin to astorm11:36
GeneralAntillesI don't really think handwriting on a small screen works very well.11:37
AStormfor good stuff, I'd need the position of the textbox11:37
AStormit does.11:37
AStorm(assuming the detection quality is good)11:37
GeneralAntillesNewton is about as small as I'll actively handwrite on.11:37
AStormn810 is larger, heh11:38
GeneralAntillesThan a Newton?11:38
AStormscreen-wise, yes11:38
GeneralAntillesHow many Newtons have you used, exactly?11:38
AStormexactly one, once, for a short time11:38
AStormand its UI for hwr is excellent11:39
GeneralAntillesYeah, um, the WHOLE FREAKING N800 is smaller than the Newton's screen.11:39
AStormyes, but higher res11:39
AStormso you can actually write better11:39
GeneralAntillesI'm not talking about resolution.11:39
GeneralAntillesI'm talking about absolute screen dimensions.11:39
AStormwell, Nokia's fine for handwriting with me11:39
GeneralAntillesand the N800's screen is too small for me to comfortably handwrite on.11:39
AStormyou can easily fit a line of text11:40
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AStorm(horizontal mode - vertical is... different)11:40
AStormother than that, I could use better hooks in hildon, yes11:41
lcuk81085" $95 5/!5 &!@11:41
lcuk810its not that bad even11:41
AStormnot just "show the IM" which returns text11:41
AStormhildon context is a bit poor in info11:43
lcuk810what do you mean11:43
lcuk810why would your im care where it is placed as long as its visible11:44
lcuk810as an input method you should be subserviant11:44
AStormbut I'd like to know where to display the input surface11:46
lbt'lo lcuk81011:46
AStormbecause another window is inconvenient and resizes windows in matchbox11:46
AStormso, I'd put an overlay11:46
lcuk810not your prob astorm, job of hildon isnt it11:47
AStormto do that, I need x,y of the textbox11:47
AStormsure it is, it's an input method11:47
lcuk810that should be feasible tho, dont you get a reference to the current activecontrol11:48
lcuk810i know im used to having context avail in vb lol11:49
AStormXID of the "textbox window" you say11:49
lcuk810yeah or gtkbox11:49
AStormyes, I could use low-level X functions to grab that11:49
AStormexcept I still have to cheat and send events at the box to simulate key input11:49
AStorminstead of having proper functions for this11:49
AStormif I want real-time input11:50
lcuk810mmh an input method shouldnt try to get hands on the app itself rly?  it should supply an input stream only11:51
AStormyeah, but not in a way of sending text around11:52
lcuk810think speech recognition, no ui, just moving cursor and pushing text in11:52
AStormthis means it can't do real-time input11:52
AStormyes, but current input is pure block of text11:52
lcuk810course it can just like a bt keyboard can11:53
lcuk810thats just another im11:53
AStormnah, it's not11:53
AStormit's actual X keyboard driver11:53
AStormwhich sends actual X events11:53
GeneralAntillesyerga, you got an Ars shout-out.11:53
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AStormI'm bitching because I'll have to do the same11:55
AStormthat is, simulate a keyboard ;p11:55
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lcuk810lol "input method"11:55
AStormat least I can detect the textbox losing focus11:56
AStorm(thanks to the context)11:56
lcuk810wont it technically lose focus as son as your im is shown11:58
AStormok, end of moaning, time to install Mer11:58
AStormit will - but that doesn't matter11:58
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AStormbecause it's the context that does hiding and showing11:59
AStormand I can send X events at the correct XID11:59
AStormalternatively, I can mark the window as non-focus12:00
lcuk810so hard typin with 1 hnd12:00
AStormwith the added "benefit" that matchbox will treat it as an overlay window12:00
AStormbut I don't know whether I can force the position of the overlay12:01
lbtJaffa: ping... bleb.. osc... ?12:05
* lbt hopes you're not in a tent...12:06
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Jaffalbt: nope, not yet. wassup?12:12
lbtseems to have been an upgrade so my local osc is broke :(12:13
lbtso I removed it12:13
lbtand found /usr/local/bin/osc is also broke :)12:13
Jaffalbt: ah - right12:13
Jaffalbt: removed - I switched to the more appropriate repo, so the hack is unnecessary12:13
AStormhopefully merinstaller can install on immc12:14
lbtcool - ta.12:14
AStormI suspect it can, amirite?12:14
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lbtdoes anyone have rights whilst you are out of touch?12:14
lbtjust in case something bad happens?12:14
StskeepsAStorm: correct12:15
Jaffalbt: nope. I should only be a few days between getting access to the intarwebz; worst case: do something osc-ey in your home dir12:15
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AStorm1,1 GB is more than enough, yes?12:15
Jaffalbt: or send me a text message (my mobile number is on my finger record, so 'finger andrew' on the box will show it)12:16
lbtOK - I'll make a note12:17
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mavhcis there anything better than canola for downloading, listening and deleting podcasts?12:24
GeneralAntilles"Better" is awfully subjective, but GPodder may work.12:25
mavhccanola's database is corrupt, it can't pause properly, it takes loads of ram, and doesn't work with some feeds12:27
GeneralAntillesmavhc, kill it with canola-cleanup then reinstall.12:27
AStormStskeeps, damn your installer12:27
AStormthere's no option to make bootmenu.item and not format the partition12:27
AStormcan't it just read /proc?12:28
AStorm(yes, I do have ext2 on that)12:28
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StskeepsAStorm: well the bootmenu item is fairly easy to make12:28
AStormwhy does it need a FAT partition anyway?12:29
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Stskeepsto keep Maemo from complaining12:29
AStormah, that12:29
AStormnah, I can fix the dumb script12:29
AStormjust a minor change from -t vfat to -t auto12:30
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RST38hSo, is krisse he or she?12:30
RST38hmoo Astorm, btw, found a job?12:31
AStormRST38h, you're hiring? :)12:31
* RST38h senses trouble12:31
AStormbecause, nah, not yet12:31
RST38hAStorm: Well, I may have stuff coming12:31
AStormmmhm, would be nice12:31
GAN800qwerty12, gotta hate the internet, eh?12:32
RST38hAStorm: it is all contract stuff though and it is peculiar12:32
AStormnow, 20 minute download12:32
AStormheh, still could be fun if it's white (not gray like I did before)12:32
qwerty12GAN800: lol, I just thought I saw a post saying krisse was a he but maybe my mind is playing tricks on me... :P12:32
GAN800qwery12, qgil say she, so I'm just going with that.12:32
AStormmaybe it's a ve12:33
GeneralAntillesAn it12:33
AStormheh, I should get my email up to speed with all the mailing list sorting12:34
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Stskeepsafternoon aladds12:34
AStormand hotlisting good threads12:34
aladdssaw you released 0.12 :-)12:34
AStormbtw, is 0.13 soon to come?12:34
Stskeepsa little over 2 weeks to go12:35
Stskeepswe haven't done much yet, we're moving -everything- to opensuse build service12:35
aladdsthat's quick12:35
AStormif I get annoyed enough, you might get a nice DSP driver for pulse from me12:35
AStorm(that's assuming I fix the earphones)12:36
* RST38h senses real trouble now after speaking with krisse on and off for 1+ year and all the time assuming krisses was he12:36
StskeepsAStorm: a2dp might work too, heh12:36
StskeepsRST38h: welcome to the internet12:36
AStorma2db is junk, too slow12:36
RST38hSts: yep12:36
Stskeepsaladds: take a look at (make a novell account)12:36
AStormtoo slow = not enough bandwidth for real sound12:37
RST38hdepends on your definition of real sound12:37
AStormneed 10 Mbit12:37
AStorm44100 kHz, 16bit, stereo12:37
AStormuncompressed or lossless12:38
RST38h64kbd should be enough12:38
AStorm1 Mbit.12:38
aladdsStskeeps: looks fun12:38
AStormactually, 1,5 Mbit12:38
RST38hSound compresses REALLY well, so you do not need 1Mbaud12:38
AStormso BT with EDR *might* do it12:38
AStormnot that well12:38
RST38h64kbaud is enough12:38
AStormFlac has 50% ratio12:38
AStormanything more than this means expensive hardware to decode12:39
Stskeepsaladds: we build simultaneously for debian armel/x86, ubuntu armel/x86, without any scratchbox etc12:39
RST38hAStorm: just sending deltas instead of absolute values will compress sound by 50%12:39
RST38hor more12:39
Stskeepsno arm hardware involved, too, or arm systems emulated :P12:39
RST38hdepending on what you are compressing of course12:39
AStormno, that will give you 20-25%12:39
AStormI know, because flac does this too :)12:39
RST38hon white noise (44kHz) it will give you 012:39
AStormbut white noise is nice, because it's uniform12:40
RST38hon a guitar quartet it will give you 90%12:40
AStormso in longer term it compresses well12:40
AStormnah, 90% from a real sound is impossible12:40
AStormas in, real-life recording12:40
RST38hif you simply delete it and regenerate it on the other end, yes12:40
AStormunless it's lossy12:40
RST38hbut I guess it won't work well because most noise isn't really white :))12:40
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AStormstill, flac can do noise well, has some additional tricks apart from Rice encoding12:41
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* RST38h is surprised flac only compresses audio by 50%12:41
AStormbut 1,5 Mbit should pass through BT w/ EDR12:41
RST38hway to low imho12:41
AStormit's fast12:41
AStormit's average 50%12:41
AStormor so12:42
AStormon fast setting12:42
RST38hso it is worse on rock, better on strings...12:42
AStormand it's mostly a static codec12:42
AStormnah, actually, it's not bad on any real input12:42
AStormthe main advantage it's that its static and lossless12:43
AStormso needs little CPU power12:43
AStormalso, it's open - I wonder why it hasn't been adopted for that BT standard12:43
RST38h"static" == "losless"?12:43
AStormthere's even an open royalty-free hardware implementation12:43
RST38hthen what?12:43
AStormstatic means it doesn't use dynamic codebooks and random advanced tricks12:43
RST38h(well BT has had limited bandwidth historically so they probably consider flac wasteful)12:44
RST38hah ok12:44
AStormso it's very simple to decode12:44
AStormwell, 1,5 Mbit is wasteful12:44
AStorm700 kbps is not12:44
RST38hso in a sense "static" ~= "stateless"12:44
AStormand with BT+EDR it can be easily done12:44
RST38hif it does not construct codebook dynamically12:44
AStormalmost, it has some small amount of state, but yes, that's it12:44
AStormit does construct the codebook dynamically12:44
AStormon encoding12:44
AStormthe trick is that there's one codebook, and it's not changed every some random amount of time12:45
AStormand many other tricks that advanced lossless encoders use12:45
AStormthe lookahead is also limited12:45
AStormso buffering one block is enough12:45
AStorm anyway12:46
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AStormhaha, it's easy to "hypnotize" someone to want what he already wants12:51
derfAStorm: FLAC doesn't _guarantee_ a compression ratio (no lossless codec can), which tends to make hardware designers nervous.12:51
* RST38h to his surprise found that the R500 works in sunlight WITHOUT the backlight12:52
AStormderf, nothing guarantees12:52
RST38hderf: well that goes without saying12:52
RST38hyou can't beat the information theory12:52
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derfAStorm: Sure it does. You can guarantee size, if you don't guarantee quality.12:53
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AStormonly lossy compression guarantees12:53
lcukylu can however say that you compression algo at worst case scenario results in 1:112:53
derfThat's what I just said.12:53
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AStormso, you could still use flac12:53
derf"(no lossless codec can)"12:53
derflcuk: Plus one bit.12:53
RST38hlcuk: 1:1 + some metadata :)12:53
AStormit *almost always* compresses better than 30%12:53
AStormin mathematical senfse12:54
RST38h"almost" has no meaning in mathematical sense.12:54
AStormit has.12:54
lcuki think we should just outlaw "1" bits12:54
derfRST38h: Yes it does.12:54
derf"Almost always" means everywhere except a set of measure zero.12:54
RST38hWell you can define it, like they do in approximation algorithms theory12:54
RST38hderf: mmm,ok12:55
derfIt is a strict mathematical term.12:55
RST38hderf: does it apply to physical entities though?12:55
AStormyes, it means everywhere except if the signal has maximum entropy12:55
derfIf you can put them in a measure space, yes.12:55
derfAnd most physical entities map to measure spaces very well.12:55
AStormbut you could extend flac to do lossy... like WavPack12:56
AStormstill, that's FLAC 2, not FLAC ;P12:56
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AStormlike MPEG-4 SLS12:56
* RST38h points out that any audio with percussion instruments is pretty high up there in terms of entropy12:57
AStormno, it's not, because that's mostly pink noise12:57
RST38hSo, good luck compressing that death metal CD =)12:57
AStormcheck out how well that compresses with FLAC - you'll be suprised12:58
AStormnote volume changes rarely12:58
RST38hit does not compress well with MP3, that is for sure12:58
AStormso Rice coding will drop most bits12:58
derfThat's because MP3 is a transform codec.12:58
AStormyeah, MP3 is sucky on transients12:58
RST38hBut how would FLAC compress it if it is noise, i.e. consists of random unpredictable sequences of samples?12:59
AStormit's not noise, hehe12:59
derfIt's _shaped_ noise.12:59
RST38hYou are not supposed to lose any sequences. You can't make a codebook because they are pretty random.12:59
derfThat's what "pink" means.12:59
AStorm"pretty" random12:59
AStormlike a fractal12:59
AStormsee how well fractals compress13:00
RST38hShaped or not shaped, you have got a semirandom input sequence13:00
AStormnot *that* random.13:00
RST38hWhich you are not allowed to lose13:00
AStormit's still predictable13:00
AStormeven with a linear predictor13:00
AStormvolume changes rarely, for example13:00
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* RST38h finds this counterintuitive13:00
AStormcompression is not that intuitive, yes13:01
RST38hNot *that* weird though, no =)13:01
RST38hOr maybe those percussion tracks are not as random as they seem...13:02
RST38hAlso weird.13:02
AStormyes, they're not random13:02
AStormthe most random part is the *timing* of the spike13:02
AStormbut that doesn't matter with a linear predictor, which can reproduce transients perfectly, even if they won't compress that well13:03
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AStorm(the falling part is predictable though)13:03
AStormactually, both are13:04
AStormpity we can't do wavelet compression in any normal amount of CPU time13:04
derfWavlets are overrated.13:05
AStorma bit, yes13:05
AStormto compress well with them, a lot of CPU power is needed...13:05
AStormthe simplest A2DP could use FLAC with changing bit depth13:07
AStormand/or frequency - if the channel can't sustain the transfer rate13:07
AStormit does that already afaicr13:08
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AStormbtw, why can't BT+EDR transmit networking faster than those 300 kbps... it should do better!13:10
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AStormmaybe I have some software misconfiguration?13:10
RST38hor you have some other device causing interference13:14
AStormit's still going 300 kbps, even though both devices say they support EDR13:15
AStormheck, why doesn't n810 transfer faster than this13:15
AStorm(because it says it supports EDR too)13:15
AStormStskeeps, make the prompt for root pass show twice13:16
AStormeveryone has made that mistake at least once13:17
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AStormoh well, the installer crashed in the initfs flashing step13:18
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AStormyup, fortunately, I flashed it before that13:19
AStormnow, time for bootmenu.init13:19
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AStormeh, now I get crashes at wifi connection... have to go offline mode just after boot13:21
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AStormah, that's just my flaky /fs13:24
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Stskeepscrashed in initfs flashing step? hmm :P13:25
AStormwith a lot of errors about /var/tmp/ whatever13:26
AStormI'll try to boot it anyway13:26
Stskeepsout of space i guess or flaky13:26
AStormout of space is possible13:26
AStormwhere did it dl the 150 MB file?13:26
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Stskeepsto the MMC13:27
Stskeepsout of space in /var/tmp that is13:27
AStormhmm, immc says still 546 MB free13:27
AStormin /fs13:27
AStormit says 15 MB free now...13:27
AStormno immc in the menu? blah.13:28
AStormI expected everything to be there13:28
Stskeepswell that's what the refresh_bootmenu.d step is for :)13:28
Stskeepswhich crashed13:28
Stskeepsit adds the bootmenu.d item13:29
AStormok, so I'll have to make it myself - any sample file?13:29
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Stskeepsit will be laying in your /etc/bootmenu.d on your rootfs13:29
Stskeepsso just refresh_bootmenu.d to install it - make sure you have space on your /13:30
Stskeepswell you have more problems with the installer than usual people :P13:30
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AStormas I mentioned, my rootfs might be flaky ;p13:30
AStormso, I need that sample file to know what to type in13:30
AStormthen reflash initfs and see13:31
AStormI suspect that flashing initfs was the last step?13:31
Stskeepsit did download, untar and all that jazz?13:32
Stskeepsbasically all installer does is partition, format, etc, grab the image file, untar it on the ext3, and setting up root password through chroot and write the bootmenu item and flashing it to the initfs13:33
Stskeepsyou can refresh_bootmenu.d (i assume you ran Install bootmenu once)13:33
Stskeepsand it will just update the /etc/bootmenu.d dir on initfs13:33
AStormyeah, it did13:33
AStormrefresh_bootmenu.d? is that a script?13:33
AStormif so, where is it?13:34
Stskeeps /usr/sbin/refresh_bootmenu.d i think13:34
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LiraNunais the "internal mmc" in the N810 an actual memory card or is it ssd?13:38
GeneralAntillesIt's eMMC13:39
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LiraNunais it soldered to the board? i.e can it be upgraded in any way?13:39
Stskeepsyeah, soldered afaik13:40
LiraNunathank you13:43
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AStormto be exact, it's BGA13:54
AStormyes, you can technically replace it with a larger one13:55
GeneralAntillesHave fun with that. :P13:56
Stskeepson the other hand, didn't some nokians get higher-gb internal mmc upon n810 release? :P13:57
LiraNuna<AStorm> yes, you can technically replace it with a larger one // I guessed so, but I bet it won't be trivial13:57
AStormyeah, you need proper BGA hotair13:58
AStormand buy a larger capacity Samsung eMMC chip13:58
AStormthe latter might be tricky,these are sold per thousand13:59
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, 8GB. Apparently there was a power issue, though.14:00
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GeneralAntillesAt least that's what Igor hinted at.14:01
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_|Nix|_WTF?! I stick a GtkTreeView into a HildonPannableArea, and now I can't select any of its items. Weird ...14:06
_|Nix|_As soon as I let go, the selection disappears.14:06
RST38hprobably swallowing some event14:06
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lbtanyone here look after maemo wiki things?14:12
lbthehe :)14:17
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GeneralAntilleslbt, well, do you need something? :P14:18
lbtsorry, on mer too14:18
lbtwe used to have breadcrumbs14:18
lbtinto subpages14:18
lbtwould have a line at the top14:19
lbt Mer / Documentation / FirstSteps14:19
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lbtwith Mer and Documentation 'active' links14:19
lbt*very* useful :)14:19
GeneralAntillesGuess X-Fade killed them accidentally at some point.14:19
lbtOK - bugworthy?14:19
lbtor "yeah we know"14:19
GeneralAntillesAlready on it.14:19
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qwerty12Speaking of the wiki: Is it possible for the discussion link on every wiki page to be coloured in red, like it was with the old theme, if it did not exist?14:21
GeneralAntillesThough it might be easier to add a string.14:22
GeneralAntilles"Edit Discussion" or something14:22
GeneralAntilles"Start Discussion"14:22
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lbtX-Fade: are you doing the #maemo irc karma calcs? If so I would like to suggest that #mer and #liqbase also count14:24
qwerty12I'd also like #qwerty'sspamchannel to count so I can get uber amounts of karma14:24
lcukshhhhh on'tday entionmay #iqbaselay eoplepay illway antway otay ogay14:24
lcukbut nice that you include my little chan :$14:25
GeneralAntilleslbt,  yeah, saw it. X-Fade will have to tweak the feed.14:25
lcuki love the fact #mer is hardcore #maemo14:26
Stskeepsi don't think there's IRC karma though :P14:26
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GeneralAntilleslbt, and #canola, and #carman, and #tangentiallyrelatedchannelx14:26
lcuk~karme stskeeps14:26
lcuk~karma stskeeps14:26
infobotstskeeps has karma of 314:26
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lcuk~karma stskeeps14:27
infobotstskeeps has karma of 214:27
Stskeepspfft :P14:27
Stskeepslame. :P14:27
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lbtGeneralAntilles: if mer/liqbase/$channel are worthy of sponsorship to hackfests.... then yes14:27
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GeneralAntilleslbt, #maemo is the only official channel.14:28
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GeneralAntillesYou can make justifications for adding at least a dozen channels to that karma list.14:28
lbthmm, Stskeeps - can we merbot mirror all #mer in here?14:28
lbt1 way mind...14:29
GeneralAntillesBut, problem number 1, they're not all logged, or if they are they aren't logged in the same place14:29
GeneralAntillesand problem 2, it just doesn't work like that.14:29
lbt1 technical easy14:29
lbt2 make it14:29
lbt3 close bug14:29
lbtlife is so good on saturdays14:29
GeneralAntilles#mer, maybe14:29
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GeneralAntillesThe ONLY way you could justify #liqbase is by including EVERY other vaguely Maemo-related channel on Freenode, too.14:30
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lbthmm chans for development of 100% maemo apps... heck, they're in the maemo community ;)14:32
GeneralAntilles#liqbase is not 100% Maemo.14:32
lbtand considering the fact that #maemo is 80% whining and 5% constructive...14:32
lbtanyhow, proposal proposed14:33
lbtback to work14:33
GeneralAntillesReally, your justification for these channels would extend as far out as #tinymail.14:33
GeneralAntillesAnything more than #maemo is just never going to end.14:33
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lbt#tinymail is quiet14:34
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Jaffa#maemo is a good first step; let's do that and assess if the right people are getting the right scores.14:42
lbtI thought we were already doing #maemo?14:43
RST38h"Google and 47 other companies are being sued over use of the "Android" name. Eric Specht of Android Data alleges that Google "stole first and asked questions later.""14:43
RST38hEric Specht unexpectedly struck fortune! Hurrah!14:44
AStormStskeeps, you lied, I wanted that immc to be the default!14:44
StskeepsAStorm: hmm? :P14:44
AStormit didn't work.14:44
AStormI mean, it booted flash14:44
Stskeepsdid you hold down button when it asked?14:45
lcukGeneralAntilles, why is liqbase not 100% maemo?14:45
Stskeepsalso, immc was the Mer installation, right?14:45
AStormI did... yes14:45
lcukits built from the ground up on and for the nokia internet tablets14:45
AStormand I wanted Mer as the default14:45
GeneralAntilleslcuk, how often do you brag about running it on other platforms, exactly? :P14:45
AStormnot "hold menu to boot" alternate14:45
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AStormstill, it's good, because I messed up partition ID ;P14:46
GeneralAntilleslcuk, anyway my point is that there are a lot of channels you can justify indexing for karma that way. . . .14:46
AStormso, how do I make it the default?14:46
lcuki have exactly 1 liqbase package and its for maemo, i COULD move away and start whoring myself elsewhere but i dont14:47
GeneralAntilleslbt, and, no, we don't calculate any IRC karma.14:47
RST38hirc karma....ah...yummy!14:47
GeneralAntilleslcuk, it has nothing to do with liqbase and everything to do with IRC karma.14:47
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* AStorm kicks the broken 2.6.21-omap in the nuts14:47
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AStormstupid thing got a watchdog reset on boot again14:47
AStorm(and it was working!)14:47
lcuki know that - its just your justification was skewed14:47
RST38hOMAP has got nuts, on top of all the other weird hardware?!?14:47
AStormno, the kernel has14:48
AStorma lot of nuts working on it14:48
AStormso, who needs 2.6.21 again?14:48
lbtsorry GeneralAntilles but if you aim to measure discussion aimed at contributing to the maemo community then I think you are wrong. If you aim to measure chat in #maemo then fair enough.14:50
lbt"I can't think of a way to bound the number of channels" is a bad counter argument but a valid problem14:51
GeneralAntilleslbt, so you want to index #canola, #carman, #tinymail, etc? Hell, I've done a fair bit of community work in my own clan channel #trem-null, so we can index that too. ;)14:51
lbtwhat is the aim?14:51
lbtmeasure discussion aimed at contributing to the maemo community ?14:51
lbtso yes14:51
GeneralAntillesAnyway, whatever, let's start from #maemo and then go from there.14:52
lbtthe objective looks like it needs more work to achieve.... that's all14:52
lbtis canola a major application on maemo?... hmm, let me see the download stats....14:53
lbtand it shows the devs are active and they deserve karma....14:53
lbtanyhow, as you say, lets take it from #maemo.... but let's not forget the aim is not to measure #maemo14:53
GeneralAntillesYou HAVE to come up with concrete guidelines for what's a justified channel.14:54
GeneralAntilles'cause if you just go and pick your personal set of favorites. . . .14:54
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lbtno, the council has to14:54
lbtbased on their reading of community wishes14:55
GeneralAntillesMY proposal is that it's limited to #maemo.14:55
AStormStskeeps, so, how do I make that new option the default?14:55
AStormedit bootmenu.conf?14:55
AStormand put what there?14:55
lbtl8r, my build needs me14:55
StskeepsAStorm: sec, meiz just put up that info :)14:56
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StskeepsAStorm: , second item14:57
AStormtanks ;)14:57
AStormah neat, I didn't know cal-tool can do that14:58
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GeneralAntillesAh, playing the victim is so much fun.15:10
GeneralAntillesSomebody else is just going to have to jump in there.15:12
Jaffalbt: The other counter-argument to anything other than #maemo (or rather against #canola et al) is that the product-based chats get their authors karma for downloads.15:17
JaffaThe argument for indexing #maemo is, pretty much, IMHO about recognising people who contribute in the *main* Maemo community spaces.15:17
lbtthat works for the whole team does it?15:17
Jaffalbt: can do - you can have multiple authors against a product15:17
lbtor just the main uploader?15:17
JaffaFor example, mgedmin and I both get karma for
GeneralAntilleslbt, you can add as many authors as you want to the Downloads entry.15:18
GeneralAntillesPeople are awfully quick to say how useless they think the wiki is, but I've yet to see them offer to lend a hand improving it.15:18
lbtyou can see how #canola would proportianally represent the team though15:18
GeneralAntillesFor that specific example, they're almost all in here anyway.15:19
lbtwell, I kinda started it for #mer... and realised it wasn't just us :)15:19
Jaffalbt: indeed. I'm willing to accept their may be additional channels to include, but let's start with #maemo (after all, there's /some/ resistance to that) and go from there.15:19
JaffaActually, concrete proposal: #maemo and #mer to start with.15:19
JaffaSince #mer is the future for current Maemo-based devices (we all hope ;-))15:20
* Jaffa notices an odd breadcrumb trail bug on the vim downloads page.15:21
Jaffa"... > Text Editors > vim > vim"15:21
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AStormStskeeps, well, your initfs is broken16:04
AStormI mean, it doesn't boot mer, because... INT_whatwasit is mmcblk0, as Maemo says... but it doesn't work16:04
AStormany ideas?16:04
AStormI get a watchdog kill16:04
StskeepsAStorm: INT_CARD vs EXT_CARD is important to remember to have16:05
Stskeepshow does your item look?16:06
AStorm${INT_CARD}p1, which resolves to mmcblk0p116:12
AStormyes, I get a watchdog kill16:12
AStormthis time it installed ok (I made /var/tmp a ramdisk)... but it doesn't boot still16:12
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AStormmight be that I didn't load ext3 stuff, funny though16:13
AStormas the fs is ext216:13
Stskeepsmbcache jbd ext3?16:13
Stskeepscan i see the whole item?16:13
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AStormI removed those16:14
AStormshouldn't be necessary, as the filesystem is ext216:14
AStormmaybe I have to load that instead?16:14
AStormor is it built-in?16:14
Stskeepsit isn't, so modules should be mbcache ext216:15
AStormblah, my fail then16:15
AStormhint - add real modprobe there16:15
GeneralAntillesThe polls have to end.16:15
StskeepsAStorm: maemo restriction16:16
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: how far are you until you go on a violent rampage? :P16:16
AStormah, oh well16:16
StskeepsAStorm: they have no Modules.dep for some silly reason.16:16
Stskeeps(we do in Mer.)16:16
AStormpolitical raisins16:16
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, I don't have the energy in me for violent rampages.16:16
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AStormsilly reason being them using busybox16:17
AStormwhich has no real modprobe16:17
qwerty12_N800modprobe is there, depmod not16:17
AStormthat one16:18
AStormStskeeps, neat boot logo16:19
AStormI'd add a submarine16:20
AStorm(for the devel version)16:20
StskeepsAStorm: hehe16:21
AStormwhy did it pop out virtual keyboard while I have my physical open? ;P16:22
Stskeepsbecause noone wrote the powerlaunch recipe for it yet :P16:23
Stskeepsi don't have a n810, so i can't16:23
AStormalso, the virtual keyboard has broken symbol part16:24
Stskeepsyeah, it's the example vkb16:24
Stskeepswhich works surprisingly well :P16:24
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AStormalso, the UI failed when I pressed and held the arrow key16:25
AStormit acted as if I pressed enter16:25
AStormso now I have a nasty username :/16:25
AStormis it easy to change that?16:25
Stskeepssomewhat. you can rm /etc/default/autologin and first-boot-wizard will run again16:25
AStormmhm, thanks16:26
Stskeepsthere's flaws, which i obviously hate :P16:26
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AStormnice work though still16:27
AStormadd a clock to the desktop :)16:27
Stskeepsthere's large-statusbar-clock to be installed, but yeah16:28
Stskeepswhen we start porting all of Maemo extras, it's almost all there16:28
AStormit's also missing one major thing - a way to configure keyboard layout16:28
AStormso I end up with default qwerty - need PL qwertz :)16:29
Stskeepsyeah - we need a control panel for it. :)16:29
Stskeepsfor most of the initial obvious issues16:29
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AStormwell, hw keyboard is unrelated to HIM16:32
Stskeepssortof. gconf has a setting to hide the kbd16:32
AStormthe signal is being sent via dbus16:32
AStormno need to twiddle keyboard setting16:33
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Stskeepsbe aware nothing is like it seems, as nokia do a lot of smoke and mirrors in their setup16:33
AStormthat wouldn't work well as it won't hide the vkb when the n810 is opened16:33
AStormyeah yeah16:33
AStormstill, you can grab that signal from the kernel if needed16:34
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AStormthe proper mod is to change vkb to not show if lid (yes, that) is open, and hide if lid is open16:34
AStormthen show back when it's closed16:35
AStormmight do this or I'll get annoyed to no end ;P16:35
AStormno applet settings?16:35
AStormso I get to live in Helsinki now?16:35
Stskeepsit's a demo :)16:35
Stskeepsi suspect it's one of the first widgets16:35
Stskeepsfunny fact: Panels crash if there's no installed widgets.16:36
AStormyou forgot to install osso-xterm l18n16:37
Stskeepsthere actually is no l10in for it16:37
AStorml10n yep16:37
Stskeepsi18n and l10n16:38
AStormboth look the same, almost ;)16:38
Stskeepsyeah :P16:38
Stskeepsinternationalization and localizatin16:38
AStormah btw, hildon-home-weather is not in path16:39
AStormso how do I change those Helsinki to something useful?16:39
Stskeepsit's a demo, so it's 34 C in helsinki all day :P16:39
Stskeeps(hint: it rarely gets to be 34 C in helsinki) :P16:39
Stskeepsso just disable it until we get a real weather applet like omweather16:40
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AStormaw drat16:42
AStormI hoped it's already more or less usable :-(16:42
AStormNow I get to install something working a bit more16:42
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AStormnote: it doesn't allow me to sudo -s16:42
Stskeepssudo su and use your password, it's a ubuntu16:43
AStormsudo -s should work too16:43
AStormholding escape key isn't bound to "home"16:43
konttoriis it expected that python hildon bindings in extras-devel are broken (for fremnantle)16:44
StskeepsAStorm: there's a home button isn't there? :P16:45
AStormeither sudo is broken, or I mistyped the root pass16:45
AStormthe one below menu, yes16:45
Stskeepsuse 'su' with the root password you used in installed16:45
AStormjust su then16:45
Stskeepssudo su ought to work though16:46
AStormyep, that works16:46
AStormsudo su doesn't16:46
AStormyes, it isn't in sudoers16:47
AStormmaybe add %wheel setting or such16:47
AStormnow, I need some good TODO app.16:48
Stskeepsif you know one from ubuntu, it's probably there :p16:48
AStormvkb forgets the "hiding" state16:49
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AStormand it's not showable from it, despite leaving a yucky white bar at the bottom16:49
AStormthere's no battery monitor yet, right?16:50
Stskeepsapt-get install tablet-battery-monitor16:50
Stskeepsit'll grab hald-addon-bme and such and install advanced power and such16:51
AStormyou forgot gpg16:52
AStormand now apt-get warns about it :)16:52
Stskeepsor didn't include it16:52
AStormlibperl is missing16:53
AStormperl cries about missing object16:53
Stskeepswe took a minbase originally so16:53
AStormoh drat16:53
AStormnow stuff broke16:53
GAN800Unending insanity.16:53
AStormI mean, apt16:53
AStormit's missing libc16:53
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Stskeepsoh, did you apt-get update first?16:54
AStorm"don't do that"?16:54
Stskeepsno, you should, hmm16:54
Stskeepscan you get me the error somehow?16:54
* lbt added tablet-battery-monitor to First Steps16:54
AStormStskeeps, I told you16:54
AStormapt-get is missing that lib16:54
* Stskeeps wonders what the jaunty people broke16:55
AStormenough I think ;P16:55
AStormnow, the question is - how do I fix16:55
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Stskeepsdpkg -l apt for me16:56
AStormX -version now fails too...16:56
AStorm"failed to exec dpkg-query: No such file or directory"16:56
AStormit exploded16:56
Stskeepsthat's rather weird16:56
Stskeepsseems like your installation didn't finish that well16:57
AStormI installed again16:57
AStormand it installed correctly that time16:57
AStormweird, eh?16:57
Stskeepsok, so steps to get this far, it broke before doing anything, in apt-get install tablet-battery-monitor?16:57
AStormI can redo it once more16:57
AStormit broke *after* doing that16:57
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AStormdpkg itself is fine, dpkg-query indeed doesn't exist16:59
Stskeepsworks fine for me16:59
AStormso, what should I install with it to fix that?16:59
AStormfull url plz :-/17:00
AStormor at least repo + name - I'll check if midori works still17:00
StskeepsAStorm: dpkg should have that in it's own package O_o17:01
AStormexcept it doesn't here?17:01
Stskeepsi have same image as you17:01
AStormhmmh, link to midori failed - what is the pathname?17:01
Stskeepsdmesg says anything?17:01
AStormonly stuff about cx3310x powersaving17:02
Stskeepswell at least that part works :P17:02
Stskeepshow big partition did you make for Mer?17:02
ShadowJK_I'd like to know why the input statusbar keeps appearing and reappearing randomly while using bluetooth keyboard...17:02
AStormStskeeps, whole immc17:03
AStormthat is, 2GB, there's enough free space17:03
StskeepsAStorm: hmm17:03
StskeepsAStorm: that's really awkward that your setup acts like that17:03
AStormuh, btw, why did it load umac?17:03
Stskeepscos stlc45xx doesn't work under 2.6.2117:04
Stskeeps(it grabs umac from initfs)17:04
lbthmm, I did "apt-get install tablet-battery-monitor" and got an xterm entry in Extras "install monitor"17:04
AStormI did that and my system exploded17:05
lbtclicking that pulled up app-mgr17:05
StskeepsAStorm: did you make swap btw?17:05
lbtadded "battery repo"17:05
AStormno, I didn't17:05
* lbt has no swap17:05
Stskeepsjust to diagnose17:05
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AStormlbt, here it didn't and perl exploded17:06
AStormmaybe stuff "just broke"17:06
lbtby exploded...17:06
lbtLANG = "en_GB.UTF-8"#17:06
AStorm71% in use17:06
StskeepsAStorm: what username did it end up with anyway?17:07
AStorm13% inodes in use17:07
AStormmy name, that is "radoslaw"17:07
Stskeepsah, that's the if [ $USERNAME = radoslaw ]; then mess shit up fi17:07
Stskeepscan i see your bootmenu item?17:07
AStormsure, that part works17:07
AStormhmmh, w/o a browser it might be tricky17:08
AStormI'll sftp it17:08
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AStormssh started fine17:08
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AStormwow, now it can't find stuff like "dirname"17:10
AStormor dircolors17:10
AStormthat's lesspipe crying17:11
AStormseems like sftp doesn't work17:13
AStormI'll try scp17:13
AStormhmm, connection refused, wth?17:14
AStormno syslog? meeeeeh.17:15
Stskeepslogread or readlog17:15
Stskeepsanyhow, i gotta go to shop17:15
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AStormnothing interesing17:16
AStormexcluding UsePAM yes. :P17:16
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AStormbut as I said, that part works17:17
AStormI've exactly the same config as you gave me, with exception of INT_CARD and ext2 instead of jbd ext317:18
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slonopotamushello from xchat from gnome from gentoo from n800!17:25
slonopotamusjoin us & be happy :D17:26
gomiamslonopotamus: nice... but I'm doing alright with Pidgin from Maemo ;)17:28
thuxslonopotamus: can you use many tablets as distcc?17:28
thuxusually gentoo folks got distcc between all machines :)17:30
slonopotamuseverything can be used for distcc17:33
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thuxdistcc is useful in gentoo17:36
thuxhow to mount usb stick to tablet? (got usb hub and cable) does it mount automatically like sdcard?17:38
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keesjthux: yes it pop's up the file manager , but you first need to put the device in host mode, there is /was a usb control applet for that17:46
thuxok thanx17:51
radic__Stskeeps: you are awake?17:51
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lbthe's gone shopping17:53
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StskeepsAStorm: i have seem your symptoms before - when i used ext218:36
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Stskeepsit messes up the fs for some odd reason18:37
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* Jaffa really wants a "FOAD" button alongside "Thanks!" after the last few days18:52
JaffaF**k Off And Die, IIRC.18:53
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sjgadsbyCome on, it's all the fault of those evil folks.18:54
* sjgadsby grins.18:54
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lcukjaffa, if you get a FOAD button added it will erupt in a whole new set of threads about the placement and syntax etc :P19:03
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* RST38h notices how the council members are walking the traditional road to mass murder19:04
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sjgadsbyYou'd prefer they take a non-traditional path to that destination, RST38h?19:05
RST38h"We will make everybody's life better! -***- These people complain. -***- These people complain no matter what we do. -***- They are blaming us. -***- They are obnoxious. -***- KILL KILL KILL"19:05
RST38hsjgadsby: Actually, yes. It would be more entertaining.19:06
pupniki'd love a big honkin system drive on rx5119:06
pupnikfor the lushness of the future19:06
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lcuk12 cylinder?19:07
pupnikyeah - given n8x0 = 4 cylinder19:07
lcukpupnik, better going for faster modem and better connectivity that way you can just upgrade your home base with however many racks you need19:08
pupnik if i were doing nx or vnc i might as well use a n80019:08
pupnikjust thinking about the kinds of OSs i'd enjoy, or the number of installed apps which is currently very limited19:09
lcuknahh u could still use the 192GB onboard memory as a buffer19:09
pupniki was hoping for 768MB19:09
lcukbut for days when your 1234832458348523842834234324songs arent enough at least you know you can dive into your back catalog19:09
lcuki do agree there tho19:10
pupnikbtw what's wrong?19:10
lcukon my 810 its a bit of a squeeze19:10
lcukv sore19:10
lcukstitches out in an hour19:10
pupnik:/  howd you cut it?19:10
lcuknokia ovi19:10
pupnikdangerous work i suppose19:11
lcukheh - ovi is finnish for door19:11
StskeepsJaffa: well when you change people's daily rhythm, the internet is full of people of people afraid of change :P19:12
JaffaIt's not just the theme changes :-(19:12
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* pupnik supports Jaffa, for whatever it's worth19:13
Jaffapupnik: ta :)19:15
JaffaNice to know one isn't banging ones head against a brick wall.19:15
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pupniki think the main benefit will be encouraging more activity on by the itt userbase19:17
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AStormStskeeps, why does ext2 mess up then?19:19
AStormmaemo works fine here with ext2 immc...19:19
AStormI can switch to ext3, why not19:19
AStormalso, 2.6.21 has to die.19:21
AStormI can help killing it19:21
AStorm(if Mer happens to work)19:21
AStormbtw, do you have mapper packaged already?19:22
pupnikwhen do we switch to gcc 4?19:25
AStormMer should be built with that already... if it's not, that's some fail19:25
AStormsame with Fremantle19:25
pupniki dunno19:25
AStormit's ABI-compatible, eh19:25
AStorm(maybe one package more for older libstdc++)19:26
pupnikwith gcc 4 i think we can oprofile dosbox19:26
pupniker i mean19:27
pupnikuse the -f optimizations19:27
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AStormstill, we could use some assembly in there for dynamic mode19:27
pupnikyes, there is a dynamic recompiler that could give 100% boost19:28
pupnikand new sound blaster emulation19:28
pupnikit's quite exciting really19:28
AStormgah, if I had more time and will19:28
* AStorm goes to hunt some quantum mechanics19:28
pupnikyou studying?>19:28
pupnikdo that then19:29
AStormexcept I'm doing something else - hwr19:29
AStormMer will love it ;P19:29
pupnikis it a secret?19:29
AStormhandwriting recognition, heh19:29
RST38hwith or without dynamic recompilation, you probably won't have much luck with x86 on arm19:30
AStormsure I will19:31
AStormJIT will speed up a lot19:31
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RST38hAStorm: Ok. Who will do segment checks?19:31
AStormdosbox is not *that* intensive running modern protected mode code19:31
RST38hAStorm: And address translation?19:31
AStorm... protected mode. No segments.19:31
AStormsegments will have to be emulated, yes19:31
RST38hWhat do you mean "no segments"?19:31
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RST38hSegment checks occur in protected mode19:32
AStormdon't we have no-execute-alike?19:32
AStormcould abuse that19:32
RST38hNot on arbitrary address ranges :)19:32
AStormarm has no segmentation protection?19:32
AStormI thought it had some19:33
AStormand we do have MMU in n81019:34
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AStormwhat CPU do we have here? ARM1156 family?19:38
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JaffaYay, more conspiracies.19:39
AStormnah, ARM113619:40
AStormsure yeah, its MMU supports protection with non-aligned regions even19:44
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RST38hAStorm: Pages != x86 segments19:45
AStormI don't care actually, x86 segments were aligned on page boundary19:46
AStorm(x86 page, 4KB)19:46
RST38hthey were aligned to 16 bytes19:47
RST38hstill are, too19:48
AStormhmm, true19:48
AStormno problem for ARM though19:48
RST38hanyways, x86 has got so much weird non-optional hardware that simulating it on a different architecture quickly is near impossible19:48
RST38hgood for Intel monopoly though =)19:49
AStormall that is done in dosbox already19:49
AStormwe have to add the JIT for CPU if possible19:49
RST38hI know it is, but not quickly enough19:49
AStormthat should help a lot19:49
AStormanother bit is sound emulation19:49
RST38hyes, it will help...a bit19:49
AStorma huge way, not a bit19:52
AStormbecause just using the JIT would be a good gain19:52
AStormand writing that JITted code in assembly should help even more19:53
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RST38hAStorm: At the end of the day, it will still be slow. Unless you ake a few shortcuts of course, but that may kill compatibility19:55
AStormfast enough to run some things19:56
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AStormStskeeps, are you making the rootfs with dir_index?19:57
RST38hyea, true19:57
StskeepsAStorm: not sure, maybe20:00
AStormcheck for -O dir_index20:00
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AStormmeh... how do I tell merinstaller that I have the mer file on n810 already?20:01
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pupniki think you'll be able to run 16mhz 386 games on next dosbox on next tablet20:03
pupnikwith sb1/2 emulation running, frameskip 1-220:03
pupnikbasically it means breaking out of the ega and into the vga era20:03
RST38hLet me see...20:04
RST38h386 did one instruction in 4-8 clocks, on the average20:04
AStormexcept we have to simulate gfx scanlining20:05
RST38hI.e. we are talking about 2-4MIPS20:05
AStormand do some scaling20:05
lcukpupnik, you mentioned dangerous work, heres an outline of what happened
RST38hAh forget graphics for now, VGA graphics is really simple anyway20:05
lcukgraphics on 810 are fast enough20:05
pupnikgood grief lcuk20:06
RST38hYes, you should be able to do 2-4MIPS on N8x020:06
AStormexcept you have to simulate the scanlines and scale the output... (the latter can be hardware, I also want an Xv driver for dosbox)20:06
pupnikyou could bank on my prediction RST38h :) too much time spent with dosbox20:06
AStorm(no opengl on my radeonhd yet)20:07
AStormunless we can drive the LCD at exactly the needed VGA clock20:07
RST38hlcuk: Of course that should be Evil Nokia Conspiracy (tm)20:07
RST38hIn fact, let us just use ENC from now on20:07
AStormNokia Siemens Conspiracy ;)20:08
RST38hNow, THIS sound wrong20:08
AStormrecently, there has been some "inteligent building" demo of the two companies... together20:08
AStormjust outside my uni20:08
RST38hIsn't "intelligent building" exactly what cuts fingers, suffocates people with halon, locks them in elevators, etc? =)20:14
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AStormelevators lock more often in dumb buildings actually20:17
AStormthe "cuts fingers" part was due to a handle on door20:17
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AStormwho needs handles when the door open automatically?20:17
AStorm(yes, for emergencies)20:17
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lcukbbl stitches out20:20
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AStormRST38h, also, halon bombing is more likely in a dumb building too20:23
AStormbecause that will just detect smoke20:23
AStorm(instead of checking also temperature and optical)20:23
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RST38hAStorm <-- completely discounts the idea of evil AI20:28
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AStormI do know that people can be more evil than AI. So, yeah.20:32
RST38hThat is ill-intentioned20:34
RST38hAI has no intentions, it is just evil20:34
AStormthat's why it can't be evil20:34
AStormevil requires selfishness20:35
AStormthat's an intention20:35
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RST38hmmm....not necessarily20:39
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AStormoh really? tell me the reason for being evil, other than self-interest...20:43
RST38hThe most common reason is good intentions20:43
RST38hHalf the original commies were selfless, good intentioned men20:44
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elninja__what about the other half?21:12
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RST38helnijnja: selfish guys who killed the first half, but only after the first half managed to slaughter/starve/execute/etc great deal of human beings21:30
pupnikThe Black Book of Communism: Crimes, Terror, Repression (Hardcover)21:34
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Stskeeps'lo TrueJournals21:34
RST38hAh, it is probably the usual anticommie drivel21:34
TrueJournalsHello Stskeeps21:34
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pupnik"Tthe authors have slowly, methodically, relentlessly added example after example to put in display, naked, a monster that killed tens of millions in the 20th Century and that will continue to kill (one hopes in a far smaller scale) in the 21st until it wastes itself out and vanishes."21:35
RST38hProlly not, it has been all but extinct21:35
derfTell that to China.21:36
RST38hUnless, of course, the world goes into really bad economic misery21:36
derfNot that I'm accusing them of killing tens of millions... at least not right now... but they are ostensibly Communist.21:36
RST38hderf: How much of Chinese politics is due to ideology and how much is due to these guys being Chinese? :)21:36
RST38hderf: (btw absolutely same thing can be asked about USSR, especially now when we see that few things changed on top)21:37
derfRight... I think the label "Communist" matters a lot less than it used to.21:37
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RST38hpupnik: For real entertainment, try this:
pupnik:/  bookmarked21:39
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RST38hpupnik: None of the original commies are even *close* to this French philosophy student =)21:39
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pupnik'day zero'21:39
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s7hi, i need to delete a dead link from the 'extras'-menue on my nokia n810; the program is already deleted. can any1 give me a hint where to do that?22:35
ShadowJK_how did you "delete" it?22:36
s7via program manager22:37
s7i think the link is still there because the software i deleted is navit, it updated itself 2 times22:37
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mikkov__is this the next tablet or n97
lcuks7 /usr/share/applications/hildon/[app].desktop22:39
s7thx a lot, lcuk22:39
Stskeepsmikkov__: looks n9722:41
mikkov__ui looks maemo5?22:41
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ShadowJK_the icons look like Nokia Mapps22:43
Stskeepsyeah, you're right22:43
qwerty12_N800physically, it looks like an N97 but I would agree with mikkov_ on the UI22:43
ShadowJK_wayfinder of Maemo has diff icons iirc22:43
ShadowJK_oh right it says maos below22:44
ShadowJK_i just looked at the picture heh22:44
xnt_asleep^ Maemo5 + N97?22:45
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* xnt wants22:45
xntMaemo 5 has 3g support22:46
s7does an1one in here use navit with openstreetmap on an n810?22:46
ShadowJK_It would be funny if there was theme X available for both S60_5thED and Maemo522:46
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xntim guessing that maemo5 will be on nokia's other phones also22:47
* xnt will have to buy a new phone noq22:47
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xntthat site just crashed my browser :(22:48
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fireunwhat a meanie22:49
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xntis there a maemo5 vmdk? or a kvm image?22:57
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Maceranybody see the wolverine movie?22:58
Macerwas wondering if it was as bad as x322:58
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* fireun will wait for dvd22:59
fireunit looks like a flash in the pan22:59
fireunno substance22:59
lbtshe dies at the end and the butler did it22:59
fireunnever trust the butler, with that damn smirk all the time23:00
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fireun"oooh, I'm gonna serve yer drink, oooh, let me open the door for yeh" *KNIFE KNIFE KNIFE*23:01
fireunso of course, wolverine has no chance23:01
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fireunxavier was a butler once, I bet you didnt know that23:04
penguinbaitxnt, your probably better off making your own, just download the installer scripts, and install ubuntu on vm yourself23:05
penguinbaitit would be faster for sure23:06
xntpb: ok thanks23:06
AStormStskeeps, could we have xchat in Mer repos please? <dog eyes>23:13
qwerty12_N800it is there.23:13
lcukthats a windows app tho23:14
lcukmikkov_, / xnt ^23:14
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lcukor do s60 devices have the same style windows xp type scrollbars23:15
AStormoh, in Other... why there? :P23:15
AStormnot Communication?23:15
xntlcuk: what?23:15
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lcukthe ui mikkov_ posted23:16
qwerty12_N800AStorm: i'm using the new package category for that package. don't think mer is using them atm though :/23:16
AStormyeah, it isn't23:16
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AStormAdvanced Power is crying about missing hal-addon-bme - I recommend a symlink23:16
AStormoh, wait, diff. server23:17
AStormthen a repo link23:17
AStormalso, fix that Organize finally or sth23:19
AStorm(and/or tell me how to reorder stuff manually)23:19
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xntyeah ok23:22
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ShadowJK_xnt, I have this terrible feeling that nokia will try to do something "revolutionary" and "progressive", and make a "phone" without GSM/3G voice, just VoIP and maybe UMA23:31
xntShadowJK_: thats my exact fear, but by the looks of that picture that mikkov posted maemo5 will also be runable on the n97 :)23:32
ShadowJK_Doesn't mean they'd necessarily have legacy voice support in maemo :)23:33
ShadowJK_speaking of UMA, they should really have that on every S60 atleast :(23:33
ShadowJK_not just ONE model :/23:33
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timeless_mbpmikkov_: last i checked any Maps app that might exist for Maemo5 was nowhere near remotely usable23:49
timeless_mbpso I'd bet against it being related to Maemo5 :)23:49
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timeless_mbpalso, the scrollbar in one of the slides to me indicates someone isn't very good w/ PhotoShop23:51
timeless_mbpi mean... really23:51
AStormShadowJK_, even then, we can fix that23:51
AStormas in, it's released with all proper docs for the modem and it's the first thing being done :)23:52
timeless_mbppeople need to learn how to PhotoShop :(23:52
ShadowJK_docs wont be forthcoming23:52
timeless_mbpso, let's play a game23:52
AStormwhy not... it's not like GSM modems contain hundreds of trade secrets23:53
timeless_mbpcan someone tell me what else is wrong between frame 1 and frame 2 of wiki-steps.jpg?23:53
lcuktimeless, alternatively they could use the screenshot tool on the device itself23:53
AStormbut yes, some companies are crazy23:53
ShadowJK_Or atleast I thought Nokia made a point of it when Symbian gained RTOS capability, that they now could run softmodem and the OS on the same single CPU rather than having two different CPUs for it23:53
AStormall we need is a way to talk to it in actual raw packet way23:53
timeless_mbpframe-1 = "Services", frame-2 = "WikiPlaces"23:53
AStormthen you can have normal voice via GPRS23:54
AStormor even old GSM23:54
ShadowJK_And Linux never gained any softmodem implementation on the regular telephone side, so I'd assume it'd never gain an implementation for 3g and gsm either :)23:54
lcuklololol timeless i notice something else23:54
AStorm3G and GSM are much easier23:54
AStormsoftmodems require knowledge of the modem chips23:54
timeless_mbplcuk: what did you notice? :)23:54
AStormit's not like we don't have software radios already23:55
lcukeither the app took a LONG time to start, ot they have a tardis or its multi sessions :D23:55
AStormso, if we can feed it raw packets... (supposing these are well-formed)23:55
AStormbut for FCC cert purposes Nokia will have to provide a binary blob driver anyway23:55
timeless_mbplcuk: good catch :)23:55
AStorm(if they go software way at all)23:55
timeless_mbpwhat else? :)23:56
lcuktimeless, the frame1 to 2 titles are expected to change arent they - if after all the user clicked a button and ran a different app23:56
timeless_mbplcuk: general placement and width of buttons should not change23:56
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timeless_mbpsince in theory they're managed by the platform23:56
timeless_mbpsure you can expect "Services" to be replaced by  "Wiki Places"23:56
lcukooh i hadnt caught that one lol23:56
lcukyou sir have a good eye :)23:57
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timeless_mbpi'm not quite sure about the right edge23:57
timeless_mbpbut whatever thing on the left ... i claim that's a photoshopping error23:57
timeless_mbpand that leaves not much confidence for the right side :)23:57
timeless_mbpoh. and would someone please remind me to kill whichever map localizer was involved?23:58
timeless_mbp"Your Current Position is" <- what kind of Drunken Titlecaps is That!??23:58
timeless_mbpbtw, please excuse my ignorance of metric units, but...23:59
timeless_mbpdo you usually write: "1km", "1k", "1 k", "1 km", or something else? :)23:59
AStorm1 km23:59

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