IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2009-04-15

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* b-man is thinking about going to LinuxFest' 0900:32
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lakin_So I have a simple animation working on my n810 (OS2008), using SDL. But there is terrible tearing going on.  I've looked around on google for the past few days and found that the general opinion is that this is life with this device.  I tried the Xsp approach but it still tears fairly badly, although it is somewhat minimized.  Are there good resources on this that I've missed?00:36
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lakin_For the record I'm fine with moving away from SDL if there is a better way to get fullscreen updates that don't tear00:37
lcukthat even lol00:39
lcuklakin_, :) take a look00:39
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lakin_Does that answer my question or are you just pimping your app?00:42
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lcukyou tell me00:42
lcukwhat are you trying to do, ill tell you if its compatible00:42
lcukyou mention animation, what sort are you aiming for00:43
lakin_just seeing whether the n810 is suitable for fast 2d animations, right now it's just a simple animation, later it'll be some games.  It's mostly 2D image blitting stuff00:43
lcukdo you need pixel level control00:43
lcuklakin_, if you have a tablet already, install liqbase and take some photos00:44
lcukit shows you a group of bouncing images, play with it and tell me if its useful00:44
lcukthe new framework is very close to release, there is a library and an application appears to only require a small amount of code (so far!)00:45
lakin_I'm so confused - how does me taking a bunch of photos and playing with your app help me find the development API's that let me do things like v-sync or double buffering, or at the very least minimize tearing.00:45
lcukits tells youif the device is cable to your expectations00:45
lcukyou have seen it as you dont like it, have a look and see if it will be worth your time investigating my project further :)00:46
lcuki am merely trying to save you time00:46
lakin_Does the n810 have so many versions that I have to run a test-suite to figure out if my particular device is capable of this or not?00:47
lcuknot at all lakin_, its just liqbase is the only thing which manages to render tear free graphics (apart from the media player)00:49
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lakin_So it is possible.00:49
lcukyes, my code is in garage, have fun00:50
b-manwb, zakkm00:51
zakkm;o thanks b-man :)00:51
b-mannp XD00:51
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zakkmhow goes your ubuntu?00:52
lakin_lcuk: heh, would it have been easier to say: liqbase renders stuff without tearing, the code is in garage, enjoy00:52
b-manzakkm: it's goings ok, allthough things have slown down00:53
zakkmdevelopment, or it started going slower00:53
ShadowJKlcuk: are you doing doublebuffere full frames?00:54
b-manzakkm: development - i've been quite busy with highschool related stuff00:54
lcuklakin_, well since i doubt you could decipher the garage code in time to actually continue your project in a reasonable time i was trying to be nice and let you in on the beta of the new framework00:54
zakkm12th grade?00:54
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b-manno, 10th00:55
lakin_lcuk: sounds great - but I'm still not certain what liqbase even is00:55
zakkmso young and so smart :)00:55
* b-man was building robots in the 7th grade00:55
ShadowJKlakin: demo going towards becoming an api for smooth tearfree00:56
lcuk:D i love robot building00:56
ShadowJKis my guess00:56
zakkmmy school would love you :) our robot wins competitions all the time00:56
zakkmwent nationals last year00:56
b-mani grew up around computers00:56
lcuklol b-man, potted in a midi-tower00:56
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zakkmb-man ate chips for breakfast :)00:57
zakkmright b-man?00:57
b-manshure XD00:57
b-mani didn't mean it that way :P00:58
lakin_hrrm - I still see tearing in liqbase on the camera app when things are moving around quickly00:58
* b-man 's dad use to work for GM00:58
b-manand phenux contact00:58
lcuklakin_, thats not the screen tearing though lol, thats me not locking when i grab the camera image00:58
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b-mani use to salvage all sorts of computers and disect them00:59
* b-man has been tenkering with computer parts since he was 201:00
lakin_lcuk: so basically if you use xv directly one can achieve it.  Sweet.  I'll keep poking around the code  - thx01:01
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lakin_I'll also keep up with liqbase development01:08
zakkmand so lcuk discovered his greatest supporter.. *narroates*01:09
lcukthat cant be true, my mum doesnt come on irc :P01:10
zakkm  /s/his/liqbase01:10
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zakkmlcuk mom, your one lucky mum, such a great child you have :)01:11
lakin_lcuk: are there any good tutorials or api references for xv online?01:11
lcuk_mumlcuk: oi,  it's past yer bedtime!01:11
lcukabsolutely none!01:11
lakin_my initial googling hasn't found any01:11
lakin_Did you just use the source as an example?01:11
lcukits all from scratch - xv is just a plain surface01:11
lcukits a bare bitmap surface01:11
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lcuki just used my noggin and coded up the entire graphics library01:12
lcukcos i needed it01:12
zakkmi once had an online buddy many years ago, used to play board games together online, like before yahoo games01:12
zakkmand his mom would play to in her own account01:12
AveI'm trying to dump mtdblock4 over bootmenu/usb/ssh but the damn thing timeouts before the dump is done01:12
Avewhats causing this?01:12
lcukare u sure he was he and not his mum all along01:12
zakkmthey were seperate people01:13
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zakkmi remember one time he hasnt been on in awhile, out of ordinary.. was on as much as you guys are on this channel01:13
zakkmi msged his mom shes like hes grounded01:13
qwerty12_N800Ave: lol, no, don't do it like that01:13
Aveto memory card?01:14
zakkmAVve, you try tar'ing /01:14
zakkmand then copy the tar over. .then extract?01:14
Aveas in mount the fs etc01:14
qwerty12_N800Ave: got a memory card with ~256mb free?01:14
lcukand feather'ing01:14
zakkmdo the old clone to SD.. .just dont install bootloader :P01:14
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Avewell, I thought that I could dump the whole fs from block device and later restore that as is01:14
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zakkmAve: do clone to sd, just dont do the bootloader part, quit it at that stage01:15
qwerty12_N800Ave: you can remake the jffs2 file01:15
Avewhere is the bootloader located?01:15
zakkmno idea01:15
qwerty12_N800Ave: wait, i statically built mtd-tools for initfs a while back01:15
qwerty12_N800Ave: got your memory card mounted?01:16
Avenot atm, I cant network in parallel with wlan and usb it seems01:17
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qwerty12_N800mounted on the tablet01:17
qwerty12_N800i assume this is in bootmenu?01:17
Aveyeah I can do that01:18
Aveneed to make some more space there first ..01:18
Avebut uh, the problem was, bootmenu network rescue kills the network and returns to menu after a while01:19
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Avefew minutes, perhaps01:19
qwerty12_N800Ave: enable rd-mode via flasher01:19
qwerty12_N800You can disable it when done, just that dsme won't reboot the tablet while in initfs01:20
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Aveah so its some watchdog doing that?01:20
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qwerty12_N800Yeah, dsme likes its system to have started booting by then...01:22
Aveis there some gotchas with the rd-mode? if I leave it on permanently01:22
qwerty12_N800the tablet comes on with one press, can be annoying if you're walking around with the tablet in a pocket01:23
lcukfinger usable? ::
Aveso, on with the dump, whats wrong with dd'ing the whole mtdblock4 (usb or mmc)?01:25
Avethats supposed to represeng the nand flash right?01:25
qwerty12_N800the flasher won't accept it for flashing01:26
qwerty12_N800I assume you're in RD-Mode now?01:26
Aveyou mean its not possible to write back into the same device?01:26
Aveuh ok .. I'll mount the rootfs and tar the thing into mmc01:27
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qwerty12_N800I had a better idea actually...01:27
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qwerty12_N800Once mounted, you can mkfs.jffs2 it. this allows you to restore it easily from the flasher01:29
qwerty12_N800*if* it ever responds, I've got mkfs.jffs2 here:
Avesorry, don't quite get it, why would I do that?01:30
AveI just want a backup of my rootfs01:30
AveI already got kernel and initfs01:30
qwerty12_N800And that gets you one.01:30
qwerty12_N800A proper one.01:30
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qwerty12_N800But it's getting late here anyway01:31
Avesite doesnt appear to respond there01:31
Avebtw the (new?) initfs_flasher package has mkfs.jffs201:34
qwerty12_N800yeah, was working 10 mins ago (go figure :/), but once mkfs.jffs2 is there, you can do mkfs.jffs2 -r /<mountpoint of rootfs> -o /<mmc mountpount>/rootfs.jffs2 -e 128 -l -n and you'll get a jffs2 fie on the memory card. Mount your memory card on the computer,  copy the jffs2 file and when you need to restore, do a flasher-3.0 -f -r <jffs2 file>01:35
qwerty12_N800won't run in initfs01:35
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Aveok thanks01:37
qwerty12_N800Sorry, I dunno when it'll be up but that link has an mtd-utils that will run in initfs - just scp it to /tmp01:37
qwerty12_N800s/it/the mkfs.jffs2 binary/01:38
infobotqwerty12_N800 meant: Sorry, I dunno when the mkfs.jffs2 binary'll be up but that link has an mtd-utils that will run in initfs - just scp it to /tmp01:38
Avek, I'll check back later, thanks for the help01:38
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b-mani'm back01:44
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b-man~burn himself02:24
* infobot pours gasoline all over himself, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze02:24
b-man~burn his N81002:25
* infobot pours gasoline all over his N810, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze02:25
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airtonarantesI got it, maemo emulator on ubuntu but it hasn't  nothing package installed. is it normal?02:31
FireFox16i think so02:33
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Aveairtonarantes: you mean qemu-arm?02:36
Aveor scratchbox02:37
airtonarantesAve, scratchbox02:37
Aveits clean02:37
airtonarantesAve, When I use the device (hasn't yet). Can I use the line commando like I'm using on emulator?02:39
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GeneralAntillesIt's not an emulator.02:42
qwerty12_N800It's not a tablet emulator, nor was it intended to be one. You don't get the user-esque apps.02:42
Maceri tell you... every month a little piece of me rejoices that i cancelled att :)02:47
Macerand a little piece of me is sad that my n95 doesn't support tmob 3G02:47
Macerbut the G1 is good.. it is no N95 with its mature symbian .. but still good02:48
Macerthat's what was good about symbian.. everything just worked :)02:48
qwerty12_N800Sell the N95 to someone in Europe and get the American model :P02:48
Maceri have the american model02:48
Macerit doesn't support a 1700 band02:49
Maceri might just sell it to sell it02:49
Maceralthough it has a couple scratches.. nothing a made in china repair kit can't fix02:49
Maceri was going to fix it up and sell it02:49
* FireFox16 will never sell his N800, NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!02:54
MakeGhoyou'll have a personal museum?02:55
FireFox16shure XD02:55
FireFox16or i'll just use it untill it's unusable02:56
FireFox16kinda what happened to my PSP XD )02:57
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Aveqwerty12_N800: turns out your way (mkfs.jffs2) was the only one to get the job done ..03:11
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Avethe busybox tar doesnt like >100 char path/filenames, cp to fat mmc1 fails also03:12
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AndrewFBlackGeneralAntilles you around?03:13
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qwerty12_N800Ave: heh, the real benefit in that method is the simplicity of restoring03:14
Aveindeed, its perfect03:14
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Aveso in theory, I could do a full restore from fiasco binary and then restore my own rootfs over that and it'd be 100%03:16
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Avethen just run initfs_flasher again to get bootmenu ..03:16
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AndrewFBlackI wonder if I should read the 12 pages of itt posts I've been in the last few weeks or just clear then and start over03:17
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GeneralAntillesProbably read.03:17
GeneralAntillesJust glaze some of the bickering.03:17
GeneralAntillesAve, or just flash your rootfs.03:18
GeneralAntillesUnless you've trashed your kernel and initfs or something.03:18
AveI'm assuming total bork03:18
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guysoft42hey, does this interest you maemo people? some gps fun with my nokia n810:
guysoft42Z357765413591701, is that a 'hmm' of interest? :)04:33
Z357765413591701yes XD04:34
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b-manawsome :)04:35
guysoft42i thought i might take the opportunity to ask what one has to do in order to get in to the planet.. i might have other stuff to blog about.04:35
* b-man notices a picture of a stick covered in catepillars... lol04:37
GuySoftb-man, yes had to get that one in.. it was head on with a picture of a crab though  :)04:40
b-manwhere was this?04:42
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b-manhello, Shadow__X04:44
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guysoft42b-man, yep..04:55
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* Z357765413591701 wonders if he should get back into developing ubuntu-n8x005:01
Z357765413591701i should05:02
Z357765413591701i will :D05:02
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* Z357765413591701 starts taking notes from responses in the ubuntu-n8x0 thread and thinks about how he can fix those problems05:08
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b-mani also should be more active in the forum :P05:11
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luke-jrhow do I play .ilbc on a normal desktop?06:10
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luke-jrLVM2 on Maemo-- doable?07:27
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euti'm running 2006 on a 770, how can i upgrade to the latest?07:59
eut(hasnt been used in a year or so)07:59
GeneralAntillesIf anybody needs a HAVA, this is a great price:
euti've done an apt-get update/upgrade but it only updated 4 packages08:02
infoboti heard flashing is
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eutthanks, i'll do that08:04
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eutbtw, what is the hacker editions?08:05
eutis that hardware or software?08:05
eutwhat is the benefit of the hacker edition?08:08
GeneralAntillesNewer software.08:08
eutok cool, i'll go with that one then08:08
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eutso it looks like the newest version for 770 is os2008 HE?08:09
eutdo i want to download the sources or the SU-18_2008_....bin image?08:15
euti'm not seeing any console messages08:21
euti'm just seeing "NOKIA" and a little usb symbol in the upper right corner08:24
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* luke-jr is installign Gentoo08:53
thuxluke-jr: on tablet?08:55
luke-jryeah, N81008:56
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luke-jrMaemo just isn't cutting it for me08:56
luke-jrI end up mostly typing notes that don't make it into my main PC08:56
thuxluke-jr: any documentation gentoo on tablet?08:57
luke-jrthat's what I'm using08:57
luke-jrlove the GCC flag to use less RAM08:58
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euthow can i search through and install packages on the device without going to
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MikaTeut: apt-cache search <package>09:21
MikaTeut: apt-get install <package>09:21
MikaTeut: ...from command line, that is.09:21
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eutsources.lst is empty09:22
MikaTeut: There is also the Application Manager, if you prefer a GUI.09:22
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euti also dont know how to become root09:24
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MikaTeut: You need to flash the image to R&D mode, and then issue command "sudo gainroot" from command line. I guess there were some "Red Pill" instructions too, but I can't remember them. You better google them.09:25
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euti recently flashed the image by following the instructions here:
MikaTeut: and /etc/apt/sources.list is empty by default, but there is /etc/apt/sources.list.d/ directory that has a file.09:26
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MikaTeut: Ok, then you might need the "Red Pill" instructions for becoming a root. I hope they work, I have not used it myself.09:28
eutsudo gainroot, Enable RD mode if you want to break your device09:28
eutbreak your device? o009:28
MikaTeut: Yup, it's easier being a root ;)09:29
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MikaTeut: Just becoming a root wont break your device, but you can do real damage, as a root, if you are not careful.09:30
eutah gotcha09:30
eutso how do i become root?09:30
MikaTeut: try to google "maemo Red Pill"....09:30
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MikaTeut: plan B is to re-flash your device:
eutred pill, matrix, break your device. these devs are great09:33
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eutso i'm in red pill, now what?09:35
euti still cannot do sudo gainroot09:35
eutbah, i'll just reflash09:36
MikaTeut: Ok, sounds like red pill might not work then.09:37
MikaTeut: That's good.09:37
MikaTIf you can do that. Add --enable-rd-mode parameter and that's it :)09:37
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eutwhat does -f do?09:37
eutpreviously i was flashing with -F SU...bin -f -R09:38
MikaT./flasher --help09:38
eutnow -F SU...bin --enable-rd-mode -R?09:38
MikaT--flash, -f             Load and flash all supplied images09:38
infobotwell, root-access is
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MikaTeut: oh, by the way, you can try just sudo ./flasher --enable-rd-mode even without reflashing.09:40
euttoo late09:40
MikaTOk :)  Sorry, my memory is not at its peek yet ;)09:40
eutis that temporary or permanent?09:41
GeneralAntillesPlease see09:42
infobotroot-access is, like,
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eutwell it has already finished flashing so not too bad09:42
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eutis there cisco vpn software so that i can connect to vpns?09:45
gomiameut: on maemo?09:46
gomiamsearch for vpnc09:47
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Macerim watching 1080p 1984 dune =)09:51
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jaskaooh, extended version too?:D09:55
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Macershitty one =)09:57
Maceri thought patrick stewart overdid it in the extended version09:58
brut-has anyone had any odd issues putting in an 8gb microSD card into an N810 and the 810 locking up shortly thereafter?09:58
Macerhe went on these shakespearean sililoquies09:58
Macerlike he bribed the director for a moment in the light09:59
brut-I'm thinking I've got a bad miniSD adapter; it's done it in 2 N810s with different microSD chips, but I'm not 110% sure yet09:59
Macerbrut-: never used a msd in my n80009:59
brut-Macer: ah :(10:00
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brut-how much storage does your n800 have onboard?10:00
AddisonGreetings and salutations gentlemen!10:00
brut-g'day mate10:01
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AddisonHeya brut!10:01
Maceri forgot10:01
Macer256MB i think10:01
AddisonDid Bundyo just take off like two seconds ago from here?10:01
luke-jrbrut-: N800 takes two full sized SD :/10:01
Macerask Stskeeps ... i sent it to him10:02
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Maceri had 16G in it tho. 2x8G sd10:03
AddisonSo, anything exciting going on tonight?10:03
luke-jrAddison: installing Gentoo on N81010:03
AddisonHold on while I google that.  :)10:03
Macerdoes gentoo have an arm install?10:03
luke-jrMacer: uh, sure10:04
luke-jrGentoo has any platform GCC supports I think10:04
brut-2 full sized SDs? ouch10:04
Macerthat sounds good but how are you going to get the other stuff working?10:04
Macerdoesnt an n810 have 2 slots?10:05
brut-only 1 as far as I can find10:05
brut-under the backstand10:05
Macerthere isnt an internal one?10:05
Macerunder the battery?10:05
AddisonOh dear lord, installing Gentoo looks like a big confusing turd to install.  Plus I don't even know what it would do.10:05
Macerit is10:05
Macerit is a pain10:06
brut-apparently there is: "# MiniSDHC card slot (replacing two full-size SDHC slots, one internal, one external)"10:06
Maceronce you do it 50 times you get used to it10:06
AddisonGot a few screenshots to show, Macer?10:06
brut-hmmph, I supposed the internal one is a mini too10:06
MacerAddison: no.. i havent used gentoo in like a year10:07
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AddisonOkay, Macer.  Just thought I'd ask.10:07
Macerit is ok10:07
AddisonSo Gentoo on the tablet is a piece I take it?10:07
Maceri suppose.. if you dont mind building everything10:07
AddisonBy piece, I meant piece of shi...10:08
Macerjust use mer =)10:08
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Maceri dont know. never tried gentoo on my n80010:08
Macerused it for a while tho. debian is better10:09
Macerfor a server.. nexenta is the best10:09
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AddisonOkay.  Pop quiz.  You can choose "back up" on the tablet.  Can that be shared with others so they don't have to rifle through all the hoops to get their tablet tweaked out like what some of you guys have?10:10
luke-jrMacer: the N810 has only one external miniSDHC slot10:12
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luke-jrMacer: miniSDHC is virtually non-existent except as microSDHC adapters ☺10:12
luke-jrMacer: the internal card is not accessible without taking it apart10:12
AddisonI wish someone would upload their tweaked out customed N800 internal memory and throw it up on Rapidshare or something so others could enjoy their settings.10:12
gomiamAddison: probably... yes10:13
luke-jrAddison: illegal10:13
gomiamluke-jr: what?10:13
gomiamhow can it be illegal?10:13
luke-jrgomiam: sharing the entire memory is not legal10:13
luke-jrdue to Nokia including proprietary stuff10:13
AddisonYeah, luke, I was thinking that it might be.  I'm not asking for paid applications, just the weird crud you guys always seem to be compiling.10:13
gomiamAddison: do you want the flash content or a backup available?10:14
Maceraddison... install mer10:15
AddisonI'd like to do a fresh flash and then choose "restore back up" or whatever it is and have the same experience that you guys enjoy.10:15
Macerit has an install program10:15
Macerdoes 99% of it for you10:15
AddisonRight now my tablet is a fluffy, cornball, piece of turd.  I've got Dosbox, Maemoscreenshot and Telnet installed.  And that's about it.  :(10:15
gomiamluke-jr: so Addison wants a backup available, not the flash memory. I.e., I would back up my current setup and make it available.10:15
luke-jrKDE 4 is not tested on ARM for Gentoo :<10:15
Macerkde4 on an n800?10:16
luke-jrgomiam: I highly doubt backup does more than personal docs10:16
luke-jrMacer: N81010:16
Macerthat would probably be disgustingly slow10:16
AddisonGomiam, if you would do that, you would become my personal hero!10:16
luke-jrI wonder.10:16
Macerkde3.5 was bad enough10:16
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luke-jrMacer: KDE 4 is better than 3.5 on resources10:16
gomiamluke-jr: oh, it does, I assure you. It also saves your connections, your package selection...10:16
luke-jrat least in theory10:17
aquatixmorning all10:17
Maceralthough i think pb seriously overbloated his install10:17
Macerluke-jr: i disagree10:17
gomiamluke-jr: in theory _and_ in practice. I have flashed my N800 enough times to know it works10:17
luke-jrgomiam: KDE 4?10:17
gomiamafter restoring, I only need a WiFi connection to reinstall the selected apps.10:17
gomiamluke-jr: oops, sorry. I thought you were still talking about backups.10:18
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MacerAddison: half of it is doing it yourself10:18
Maceryou should try it10:19
gomiamAddison: I have little to no customisation done, besides the packages I have installed.10:19
Macerand... stock maemo has thousands of apps you can install10:19
gomiamI might tell what apps and repositories I'm using, though :P10:19
Macerso you can have more than telnet on it10:19
luke-jrlike KDE 410:19
AddisonOkay.  That works good enough for me, gomiam.10:21
AddisonHey, I was so pumped when I got Telnet to work.  That just shows you how far behind in the times I am.  :)10:22
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gomiamAddison: ok, let me try and dump my repository and package selection10:25
AddisonAh nuts.  I think I need to head out.  Hey gomiam, could you send that to me as a private message or post it on the message board?10:26
gomiamnotice it's an N80010:26
AddisonI've got some serious drinking to do tonight and I'm well behind right now.10:26
AddisonI've got a keg of beer and a snorkel with my name on it.  *lol*10:26
gomiamAddison: look it up at I'll write the info there :)10:26
AddisonOkay.  I'll bookmark it.  Thanks!10:27
AddisonDude, you're a Spaniard?10:27
AddisonI can speak a little Spanish....  How's this....  "Yo' esa!  I didn't axe for no sprinklez on my ice creeeem!"10:28
AddisonPretty good.  Yeah?10:28
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AddisonOkay.  Gotta go.  Have a great night everyone!10:29
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JaffaMorning, all10:46
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cosmois it some known bug that causes locking/unlocking touch screen very slow?10:50
cosmoi think it also runs battery down fast and causes random reboots10:50
* Jaffa 's N810 has been very slow locking & unlocking the touchscreen over the past few days - not sure what's caused it10:51
JaffaOh, and modest's email checker's broken again10:51
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cosmoi do have a lot of 3rd party apps installed, so it might be one of them causing it10:52
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* aquatix wonders why hildon-desktop has grown to use so much memory over time and take about 6% cpu all the time10:54
aquatixany applets that are known to cause this?10:54
aquatixi use statusbar clock, load applet, clock, weather, quick contacts and the rss applet in non-scrolling mode10:55
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Jaffaqwerty12_N800: ping11:14
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aquatixanyone has an idea? :)11:21
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qwerty12_N800Jaffa: pong11:23
aquatixmorning qwerty12_N80011:23
qwerty12_N800hey aquatix11:24
* aquatix hands qwerty12_N800 a cup of $favourite_hot_drink11:24
Jaffaqwerty12_N800: - I don't remember suggesting that11:25
qwerty12_N800Jaffa: hmm, sorry, I must've put the wrong name down (stskeeps had me there initially). Lemme check the logs11:26
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Jaffaqwerty12_N800: ta :)11:28
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qwerty12_N800Jaffa: apologies, Andre told Stskeeps about it11:33
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eichiwhat is the easiest way, to make something like a fast-editable-allways-visible note?12:00
eichii want something on the screen, i can note, where my bisycle is parked12:00
eichishould go fast12:00
eichiat the moment, i use mTask with home applet12:01
eichibut maybe, there is something, like a  one-click-edit note?12:01
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aquatixeichi: new note?12:17
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aquatixmaybe a homescreen applet can be made to add a new note with a one-line input12:17
aquatixthrough dbus or something12:17
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lcukeichi, not yet, but the new liqbase should fit your needs once released :)12:35
lcukyou should even be able to take a picture as well ;)12:35
eichilcuk, lol ;D nice idea12:35
lcukalternatively, you could tie a piece of string between your bike and yourself12:36
lcuksorta quantum entanglement12:36
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RST38hmoo all13:01
qwerty12baa RST38h13:01
GeneralAntillesHa, I like how Nokia just amends and appends random shit to the category list with no discussion.13:03
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* thux wonders why slopopotamus gentoo doesn't use the same wifi driver that nitroid uses13:08
qwerty12Because it uses 2.6.21 kernel.13:08
qwerty12Mer, also currently using 2.6.21 on tablets, still uses cx3110x.13:08
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* lcuk appends GeneralAntilles to the category list. new applicaitons can be grouped by you now!13:22
Stskeepsi thought "General" on iTT was about GA :P13:22
GeneralAntillesBoingo still hasn't fixed theirs.13:22
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, I think that every time I see it written. :P13:23
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lcukdid anyone reach an agreement about ranking on itt?13:30
StskeepsGA > *13:31
Stskeepsi guess13:31
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LopLiiiis there exist better browser than os 2007HE stocks?13:49
LopLiiii mean performance wise13:50
qwerty12Upgrade to OS2008HE and install Tear13:50
LopLiiihi, qwerty12, will os2008HE making general app speed more slowly than 2007he?13:51
qwerty12Hi, probably, I hear it isn't as fast and demands more swap but if I'm being more honest, even on a N800 with OS2008, I use Tear instead of the default browser13:53
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Stskeepsor try out Mer on 770 :P 0.12 will be a lot more stable13:56
Mikho_would anyone know how to find out the default web browser setting from within a C++ program, inside scratchbox environment or N810?13:57
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RST38hqwerty: tear has got the same problem as microb, made worse by kinetic scrolling14:08
lcukwhat problem :O14:08
qwerty12RST38h: it's not perfect, but I, sure as hell, find it faster than MicroB :)14:09
RST38hqwerty: you try scrolling it, it suddenly stalls, eating 100% CPU, then either continues scrolling (MicroB) or decides it has been a click (both), or the kinetic stuff goes haywire (Tear)14:09
RST38hoh it is faster than MicroB14:09
RST38hBut these weird scrolling behaviours make me feel like I am walking a minefield14:09
t_s_oyep, never understood the need for kinetics...14:11
qwerty12Hopefully, Bundyo will add a toggle option for it14:12
GeneralAntillesIt's funny, because webkit-eal's scrolling works GREAT14:12
_berto_I think I'll compile Links for the table one of these days ...14:13
qwerty12We have links, links2, and elinks somewhere afaik14:13
* lcuk slides past t_s_o14:13
lcukoh shit, i meant to stop at you14:13
* lcuk glides back the other way 14:14
lcuk\o hola t_s_o14:14
t_s_owebkit-eal had/has the ability to tune the scrolling response, depending on what version your using14:14
_berto_qwerty12: really ? I took a quick look some time ago and I didn't see it14:15
lcukyeah t_s_o14:15
t_s_o <- do i smell a pun?14:15
_berto_t_s_o: 'fan' or 'coolest' ? :-D14:16
qwerty12_berto_: links2 is here:
qwerty12Although, it's probably old by now...14:17
_berto_qwerty12: thx14:17
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ShadowJKin tear you can scroll on more things, microb seems to occasionally need some double-tripple-quad-tapping to convince it I don't want to mark text14:39
RST38hThat too14:40
RST38hAnyways, we have no control of MicroB, but Bundyo is a perfectly reasonable guy14:40
RST38hSo, I suggest a few of us bring up the scrolling problem at the iTT thread14:40
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ShadowJKI've also experienced tear's love for sending the page scrolling at incredible speeds :)14:41
RST38hShadow: That is what I mean by kinetic stuff going haywire14:41
RST38hWorks like a charm on mobile pages though14:41
ShadowJKIt happens for me mostly when the touchscreen loses track of the stylus14:41
RST38hwhich, surprise, happens when the tablet has been doing "something" at 100% CPU for the past 5-10 seconds14:42
RST38hso that when it arrives to the next stylus acquisition point, the stylus can be anywhere, including user's ear14:43
lcukmouse event goes from position 90 to position 380 in one event timeslice and your page contents fuck off to the southpole14:43
ShadowJKOh I meant when I start dragging stylus in the sensitive area of the screen and accidentally move it across the less sensitive area without increasing pressure, it registers as quintuple-clicks and other fun stuff which occasionally makes tear send the page at warp speed14:44
RST38hShadow: that too but it must be super easy to fix14:45
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ShadowJKI think the input stuff in linux is able to attach timestamps to events, but atleast a year ago on Linux desktop, Xorg itself was ignoring it14:45
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lcukShadowJK, i have a bad screen on my main dev 810 - its not sensitive to finger stuff, the kinetic never goes mad tho14:46
ShadowJKon a related note, I wish someone made load applet not show CPU use as 100-Idle14:47
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lcukwhy? cos it always shows as 1 nobble?14:48
ShadowJKactually I don't know what load applet measures, by just watching at it I'm not sure if it's looking at current CPU frequency or looking at idle time14:49
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lcukit might be just random14:49
ShadowJKBut anyway, CPU usage as 100-idle treats IO load as CPU load14:50
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Bstrdhello alterego15:36
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StskeepsMacer: tablet is under customs processing now15:50
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GeneralAntillesIt's gonna arrive in pieces.15:53
Stskeepswe'll see how it goes15:53
GeneralAntillesEither that, or it's going to be a bomb. :P15:53
GeneralAntillesMacer's a Nokia agent.15:54
Stskeepsmy tablet is just getting worse and worse15:54
Stskeepsit's at the point i have difficulties using it15:54
Stskeeps.. and i don't feel like starting to use the 770 actively15:55
qwerty12_N800Is this the point where you go to your fiancee that you're not gonna give her the 770, but she can have the next model up instead? :p15:56
GeneralAntillesThis is the point where he begs for forgiveness with 3 RX-51s.15:56
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: first thing she said when coming home was "oh, i didn't take my laptop along from poland, assuming i can use the 770 for the while being"15:57
qwerty12_N800poor girl, she's in for a surprise...15:58
Stskeepswell, she can actually stand it - the wifi "blindness" issue is kinda annoying though15:59
Stskeepshave considered getting latest mer on it and see if it helps16:00
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: did anyone experiment with suspend to disk yet on n8x0 anyway?16:00
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GeneralAntillesRecently or in general?16:01
qwerty12_N800not to my knowledge16:01
Stskeepsin general16:01
Stskeepsthe battery switch use case would be useful, heh16:02
GeneralAntillesI'm pretty sure somebody looked into it.16:02
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: also we should look at s2ram at some point16:03
qwerty12_N800My understanding is, that amongst other difiiculties, watchdog kicks in16:03
Stskeepsah - i actually did some experiments with it in ireland16:04
Stskeepsit doesn't16:04
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps: I assume the script, as the author of the program has never heard of sharing source...16:04
Stskeepsyes, script16:04
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Stskeepsbut i think we can do some interesting things if we really want to16:07
Stskeepsargh, the script disappeare16:08
* Stskeeps grabs from mirror16:09
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GeneralAntillesWhat sort of powersaving are you looking at with s2ram? 60 days?16:09
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: yeah, just found it16:10
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: fanoush claimed 30 days at some point16:10
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, that wasn't s2ram16:10
GeneralAntillesthat was just idle.16:10
Stskeepsthen i don't know, we'll find out i guess16:10
GeneralAntillesWhich actually makes me think that s2ram may not be worth the effort.16:11
Stskeepsi don't mind something like S2ram for long journeys without powerplug16:11
GeneralAntillesAlthough s2disk may be.16:11
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Stskeepsas reboots are nasty16:11
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps: should be trivial to add it to powerlaunch16:11
Stskeepsyeah.. i wouldn't mind s2disk either16:11
GeneralAntilless2disk seems like less work16:12
Stskeepsdepends on how badly written the arm parts are16:12
GeneralAntillesSince there's no watchdog kicking or anything that needs to be done.16:12
Stskeepsi mean, we have a race condition in kexec16:12
Stskeepswe'll see, - once mer is more stable it's worth looking into16:13
GeneralAntillesWhat'd a RAM dump to disk take? About 15 seconds?16:14
X-FadeWith full cpu and IO ;)16:14
X-FadeWhich is exactly why you don't want a reboot.16:14
X-FadeSo I'm not sure if save and restore will win you anything.16:15
X-FadeSounds like a reboot to me.16:15
GeneralAntillesYeah, true.16:15
GeneralAntillesThough at least you're saved app launching.16:15
X-FadeWell flightmode + locked will probably save you more.16:16
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X-FadeUnless you need to wait several days.16:16
GeneralAntillesand unless you've got something freaking out in the background16:16
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GeneralAntillesor using 0.1% CPU16:17
X-FadeYeah, but that is something you can test beforehand ;)16:17
GeneralAntillesIt's a tough one to troubleshoot16:17
GeneralAntillessince top certainly doesn't help.16:17
X-FadeNo, but a clean image does..16:17
GeneralAntillesThat sounds fun. :P16:18
X-FadeBtw those FRUCT guys seems to do some long running tests for leaks and performance drains.16:18
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Stskeepsi'd like a more visual indicator of how "hot" a program is running the system16:19
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lcuki mostly get battery death when nothing is technically running16:20
lcukor showing as busy16:20
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* lcuk thinks its mostly extra interfaces16:21
lcukmaybe the powervr :O16:21
Stskeepsheh @ the MAC address thread16:21
Stskeepsand this shows why the eula is needed :P16:22
qwerty12_N800ever googled N800 back cover?16:22
Stskeepsi have before i got a 770 gotten a MAC through google, though16:22
Stskeepsas there was a xomap problem16:23
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ilovemistakeshello everybody. is it possible to use gconf for storing data with maemo-sdk+ and sb2? reading is fine, but on write gconf says he has no writable databases.17:29
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ShadowJKworking powertop would be nice17:39
* ShadowJK sighs17:40
ShadowJKmicrosd is evil17:40
ShadowJKit's too small :(17:40
qwerty12_N800if you disable wifi & compile the kernel with the required option, it's possible...17:41
qwerty12_N800have wifi enabled however and the tablet hangs17:41
ShadowJKI had sound die on me the other day17:41
ShadowJKand the tablet would freeze a few seconds whenever it tried to play something17:42
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qwerty12_N800Heh, mplayer always does that to me when I forget to toggle its alsa output to  bluetooth17:43
ShadowJKdmesg was full of page allocation failures. dsp_dld seemed to want a 1meg chunk of ram in kernel17:43
ShadowJKafter a few days uptime, heckn after a few minutes, 1Meg of contigous kernel memory is impossible to find :)17:43
qwerty12_N800uprecords on my tablet says:"     1     0 days, 23:07:26 | Linux 2.6.21-omap1        Tue Apr 14 10:34:06 2009" :(17:44
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ShadowJKhm, has nobody made anything to answer the question "what's using CPU when the screen is off?" yet? :-)17:46
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timsamoffOT Question: If an organization completely blocks SMTP, is there another type of gateway (aside from web-based tech) to send mail?17:58
ShadowJKI think one variant of ssl encrypted smtp uses another port17:59
woglindeig they block its policy17:59
woglindeand I wouldnt bypass the policy18:00
timsamoffAll SMTP is blocked (regardless of SSL ports, etc.).18:00
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ShadowJKWell you'd have to experiment how they block it :-)18:00
timsamoffwoglinde do you work in IT. ;)18:00
woglindeI would rather ask18:00
timsamoffI've asked -- I've gotten them to open IMAP, but they won't budge in SMTP.18:01
ShadowJKIf they aren't that competent they'll only have blocked port 25, or blocked everything except http.18:01
ShadowJKOh, that sounds like they've blocked everything then :-)18:01
timsamoffYes. Unfortunately.18:01
woglindeah you freenlancer there?18:01
woglindeargs are18:02
timsamoffActually, I'm at a public library.18:02
timsamoffThey are very competent here... And, very nice to open IMAP for me. But, what good is receiving if you can't give. (I'm a giver, you know.)18:02
woglindehm you shpuld respect it18:02
woglindeor be not nice and use a http or dns tunneÃl18:03
woglindehm seems some letters are on tge worng place on my keyboard18:03
timsamoffRight... Is there a way to do that via SMTP settings in a desktop email app, though?18:03
ShadowJKtimsamoff, no way18:03
timsamoffHmmm... I'm not trying to be malicious, of course. Webmail for 8 hours a day is difficult.18:04
jukeymaybe port 443 (SSL) is free18:05
timsamoffjukey: Don't know if I've tried that one. 465 is not open, though. I'll check.18:05
jukeybut you need a destination for your tunnel18:05
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timsamoffHmmm... I think I can do that. I will check.18:06
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ShadowJKThat destination becomes your new origin on the internet so you're not really using their intarwebs for sending emails through a bloodpressure friendly interface :D18:07
timsamoffOk. Thanks, everyone!18:07
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lcukderf, you called?18:21
X-FadeHeh, notification on bacon? :)18:21
lcuk:D abso-piggin-lutely18:21
GeneralAntilleslcuk always makes me think of the Bacon Bits dog.18:22
lcuktimsamoff, was it you that baconified me?18:22
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lcuklook at this>>
lcukits beggin strips gan, and i tell ya, im never eating that crap agian18:22
GeneralAntillesEr, right.18:22
* GeneralAntilles is addled.18:22
lcukin reality if i consumed as much bacon as i put out, i would be well and truly dead by now18:23
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lcuki have a new food stuff though that is as scrumptious as bacon and a little less likely  to harden my arteries18:24
lcukhome baked: lemon n lime drizzle cake18:25
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* lcuk gets hungry at the thought18:25
lcuki best go back to work tho18:25
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timsamofflcuk: 'twas.18:33
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* timsamoff work now18:37
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slonopotamus_luke-jr, ahha! i remembered i saw you somewhere20:06
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* lcuk ponders what wouldv happened if i had gone for an ipod touch20:09
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maemo_VDVsxlcuk, instead of the tablet ? :)20:27
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lcukyou in the conflict meeting?20:28
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freex_hi all20:38
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freex_if i want to mount a windows-share i need a FAT32 partition. is this correct?!20:39
freex_there is no way to access NTFS partitions?20:39
luke-jrsounds like BS to me20:39
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trofimounting network SMB share requires mount.smbfs/mount.cifs/smbnetfs/fusesmb/etc20:41
ShadowJKover network the filesystem doesn't matter20:41
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lcukFree_x over wifi, the problem is not the filesystem, its that maemo cannot access password protected shares20:43
freex_i can see the server and shares. but no files in it20:43
freex_in an article on the inet is written, that i have to use FAT3220:44
nikosapiSorry to bug you guys again about GSOC, but is it normal that I haven't recieved any comments on my proposal yet?20:44
lcuki dont see how since the filesystem information  is not sent over the ether  (afaik)20:44
nikosapithe FS shouldn't make a difference20:45
lcukyou! are! welcome!20:45
ShadowJKfreex_: if you connected harddrive to tablet via usb, then harddrive couldn't be ntfs formatted20:45
ShadowJKbut ober network it makes no difference20:45
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freex_ok ShadowJK!20:46
* RST38h moos, then coughs, and wonders whether it is time to go to the butcher already20:48
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* lcuk broils RST38h 20:49
qwerty12_N800RST38h: Seeing as you're the one mooing, for you own safety, I'd advise you not to go...20:49
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RST38hqwerty: I am sick.20:50
RST38hqwerty: And this way, I at least have a chance of spreading the disease to as many victims as possible.20:50
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cityOfLightsany one alive?22:08
cityOfLightsok, I got this issue:22:09
cityOfLightsI am using the boot of SD and I had ocasinaly my device died when the battery was out22:10
cityOfLightsI then saw odities, and when I try to fsck it, it constantly shows the same problems22:10
cityOfLightsand I can't fix it using -a22:10
cityOfLightsit is ext2, is there anything to do but format it?22:10
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lcukcityOfLights, sounds like the card is on its way out perhaps - for the price of a new one it might be worth it22:13
lcukunless you enjoy recovering correupted data regularly22:13
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cityOfLightsit is a brand new 16Gb sandisk22:14
cityOfLightsand I replaced a 8Gb new transcad that gave me the same issue22:14
lcukwhat problems22:14
luke-jrcityOfLights: afaik, Nseries don't support > 8 GB22:14
Stskeepseh, n800 has been seen with 2x32gb22:14
cityOfLights8 gb and 16 worked for a while22:15
qwerty12_N800cityoflights: using a 48mhz sd speed kernel?22:15
cityOfLightslet me see22:17
cityOfLightsI think it the stock kernel that I got after the last official nokia update22:17
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cityOfLightsI run 2.6.21-omap1 #1 Tue Jan 20 22:44:37 armv61 unknown22:23
cityOfLightsin the about I see 5.2008.43-722:23
qwerty12_N800what does cat /proc/version say?22:24
cityOfLightsLinux version 2.6.21-omap1 (matan@matan) (gcc version 3.4.4 (release) (CodeSourcery ARM 2005q3-2)) #1 Tue Jan 20 22:44:37 IST 200922:24
cityOfLightsoh right this is a version that can run pptp22:25
qwerty12_N800that's not a nokia kernel22:25
cityOfLightsso it was compiled manually22:25
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cityOfLightsI could still run with the 8Gb using the original kernel from nokia22:25
cityOfLightsneed I swith back to the original kernel to try to fix my sd?22:27
qwerty12_N800well, it depends i guess. the kernel may not be your problem, but for me, I'd get corruptions with the 48mhz one22:28
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cityOfLightsok, pls remind me, I think I can burn back the nokia kernel without the usb - right?22:34
RazumihinI had some strange bug with sd also.22:34
RazumihinThe whole device locked and I couldn22:34
Razumihint use sd even from commandline.22:34
RazumihinOnly thing that helped was flashing the device.22:35
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cityOfLightsbut I think I will try to flash the kernel only , right?22:35
cityOfLightswhat qwerty?22:35
qwerty12_N800sorry, mer's h-i-m. go figure...22:36
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cityOfLightswhat is the osso-software-version-rx34-unlocked  package/22:55
cityOfLightsI want to re-install the diablo kernel22:55
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usicowI'm trying to make a symlink from /media/mmc1/music to /media/mmc2/music, but I'm getting the error Operation not permitted.22:57
usicowThe command I'm using is: ln -s /media/mmc1/music /media/mmc2/music22:57
usicowdoes anyone know whats wrong?22:58
qwerty12_N800fat* doesn't support symlinks22:58
usicowstrange.. I thought I had done this before..22:59
usicowbut is the internal drive fat?22:59
qwerty12_N800Yes, unless you reformatted it to something different, it most likely will be23:00
usicowwhat I'm trying to do is make it to the media player (when I open it) automatically looks in mmc1/music (my own memory card) rather than the internal one. Is that possible?23:01
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qwerty12_N800it should do by default, it just sounds  like the list of available tracks haven't refreshed. if we're talking about the default one, running metalayer-crawler from a terminal forces a refresh23:03
usicowcool thanks23:03
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usicowhmm that didnt seem to work.. it was very quick by the way.. and I still cant see the mp3's on my own memory card.23:04
qwerty12_N800odd :/23:05
usicowyeah the only way I can get to them is by opening the file manager and selecting them from there.23:06
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lakinlcuk: Playing with liqbase - the blit test tears just like my program does23:18
* lcuk is devistated23:21
lcukdo you wanna upload a vid of it tearin, cos ive never seen it happen23:22
lakinThe blit test is the png of the Maemo site23:22
lakinthe best place to see it is the edge of the picture of Dr. Ari Jaaksi23:22
lakinThe edge will show it clearly if you quickly drag back and forth diagonally23:23
* lcuk fails to see it23:23
lakinI don't have a camera to take a video of it23:23
lakinOtherwise I would23:23
lcukwheres your app then so i can see how bad you mean23:23
RST38h"We will seek out the Americans and if we capture them we will slaughter them," said a 25-year-old pirate based in the Somali port of Harardhere who gave only his first name, Ismail.23:23
lakinlcuk: the app is on my computer23:24
lcukand i gather you are running in ondemand mode and at 640*48023:24
RST38hho ho ho, the war is on =)23:24
lakinlcuk: I'm running whatever came on the machine - I haven't messed with it at all23:24
lcukchuck us the source ill build it here and have a see what i must be doing wrong23:24
lakinhrmm My app won't really be able to show you what's wrong with liqbase23:24
lakinIt'll just show you what's wrong with my app23:25
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lcuklakin, sure it would23:25
lakinlcuk: is there a way to take a video using the device itself?23:25
lcukif i can see how bad it is in yours i can have a quantative assessment of just how bad your tearing is23:26
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lcukso is liqbase broken then?23:27
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lakinlcuk: what do you mean by is liqbase broken?  It tears, yes, but from my understanding of the hardware this is to be expected23:32
lakinthere simiply is not enough bandwidth to update the entire screen without tearing.23:32
lcuklakin, there is a tiny sdl test app on here, that was the closest I could get a bitmap to scroll using "normal" libraries.  since you have a magic touch, make it work as smoothly as liqbase23:32
lakinwhat do you mean "since I have a magic touch?23:32
lcukliqbase DOES get under the bandwidth window using YUV23:32
lcukif your machine is busy though or something gets in the way of the transfer you can still get tearing23:33
lcukyou might know that the YUV format used by xv has a full resolution greyscale and half resolution chroma channels which ends up at less bandwidth than the 16bit format normally used23:34
lakinright, that makes sense23:34
lakinBut it also has to be time properly23:35
lcuknot my job23:35
lcukxv does whatever it does23:36
lakintimed properly, you have to start the update directly after a v-sync to 'beat' the next refresh.  From my understanding the LCD doesn't give a v-sync, so xv (or SDL) can't time it properly23:36
lakinBut all I've read are a bunch of mailing list posts, the people writing them could be wrong23:36
lcukseems to work for me and for mplayer and for the built in media player23:36
lakinIt's harder to see tearing in movies23:36
lakinBut you're right, it definitely could me my device23:37
lcukcourse it isnt, the sdl test up there tears and wobbles, liqbase is rocksteady23:37
lcuki cant read books with the sdl prototype i made, i can and do with liqbase23:37
lakinHow does it affect reading books?23:38
lakinI read books with the PDF reader on it all the time.23:38
lakinworks great23:38
lakinThe text isn't moving while I'm reading23:38
lcukautoscrolling reader23:38
lcukpress [menu] whilst on a book23:39
lakineven choosing "Continue reading" the app just freezes for me23:40
lcukdo you wanna mail me the log ill have a look at whats goin on for you23:40
lcukrun it from the console its quite verbose23:41
lakinYou mean for the freeze?23:41
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lcukyeah, shouldnt lock up i go in and out of there every night23:42
lakinMaybe I don't have the newest version?23:42
lcukwhat version have you got (it tells you on startup)23:42
lakinI installed the latest test deb:
lcukyeah thats the last .deb built23:43
lcuknot had any probs tho, garage has later code, but no book related mods have been made (that i can remember anyway!)23:44
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lakinhow do I tell if I'm running ondemand and the resolution?23:46
lcukgo into the options dialogs23:46
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lcukone for resolution and one for cpu throttling23:46
lakinI'm running at 800*48023:47
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lakinon 640*480 - the tearing is lessened, but is still there.23:48
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lcuki fail to see it, but at 640*480 the image is being scale blitted - its actually faster at 800*48023:49
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lakinSorry man, wish there was an easier way for me to demo it to you23:51
lakinIt's quite obvious on my machine - perhaps my LCD has a faster refresh than yours?23:51
lcuki still fail to see the problem, its a blit test - i didnt even know i could do color until i wrote that23:52
lcukare you getting actual artifacts?23:52
lcukcos you just mentioned at 800*480 - the software defaults to 640*480 because some users experience glitches when run for the first time after a reboot23:53
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lcuk(shutting down and reopening stopped them totally until reboot)23:54
lcukso a workaround was just to lower res for default install23:54
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lakinIt's a tear, I'm getting the top half of the image rendered in a different x,y position than the bottom half23:54
lakinwhich means that the edges of the photo within the photo are misaligned23:55
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guysoft422hey, i had this idea. if i have a camera, that holds in its jpg header the time when photos were taken, and a gpx recording done with my nokia N810.. shouldn't i be able to cross the information and get geo-positioning of my photos?23:55
lcukim panning over all 10 images and letting it scroll and im not seeing any breakage of ari's head!23:55
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RST38his it a good thing?23:56
lakin*shrug* - it's very obvious on my machine23:56
lcukwell thats what im thinking23:56
lcukno matter how fast i pan ari stays in one piece23:57
lakinLike, I said maybe my LCD refresh is fast enough that I get tearing, and your LCD refresh is slower23:57
lcukwhat about on the graffiti wall23:57
lcukcan you break apart from sketches23:57
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lakinlcuk: the graffiti wall isn't moving23:59
lcuksure it is23:59
lcukyou can scroll up and down it23:59
* lcuk sets his going and watches it scroll kinetically for miles23:59
lakinonly if you have enough sketches23:59

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