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| luke-jr | someone suggested a $15 shipped BT headset earlier-- something special that makes it better than the $10 shipped WEP200? O.o | 00:15 |
|---|---|---|
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| jaem_N810 | good morning | 00:16 |
| b-man | hello :) | 00:17 |
| jaem_N810 | how's the installer coming, b-man? | 00:17 |
| jaem_N810 | the Ubuntu one, that is | 00:17 |
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| b-man | I'm finishing up with sys-env-base and sys-env-x so i can actually start - i've been busy completing the repo | 00:21 |
| RST38h | TI83+ works! | 00:21 |
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| jaem_N810 | RST38h: %11111000 ! | 00:24 |
| b-man | hehe | 00:24 |
| jaem_N810 | oh, and by the way, I've been getting rendering glitches on the 3x5 font on the 83 | 00:24 |
| RST38h | jaem: that is RST30h | 00:24 |
| RST38h | jaem: fixed those glitches ~40 minutes ago | 00:25 |
| jaem_N810 | thanks | 00:25 |
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| Macer | wtf... like.. this networking doesn't seem to be working too well | 00:37 |
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| Macer | wtf | 00:39 |
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| FireFox16 | Macer: crummy upload/download speed? | 00:41 |
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| FireFox16 | hello, neatojones :) | 00:43 |
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| vasily_pupkin | Hm.. Anybody use GPE calendar? | 01:06 |
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| luke-jr | any way to get WiFi PSM to turn off when there's a call? | 01:12 |
| luke-jr | it adds 300-1000ms latency when it's on :/ | 01:12 |
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| lardman | evening all | 01:15 |
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| * Myrtti frustrates | 01:17 | |
| lardman | frustrates who? | 01:17 |
| Myrtti | myself, badly | 01:17 |
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| lardman | :) | 01:17 |
| Myrtti | I'm running out of colloquial familyfriendly ways to curse | 01:18 |
| Myrtti | so far the Finnish vocabulary has been enough, but I might have to move over to English soon | 01:18 |
| lardman | lol, no need for the familyfriends thing, we can take it | 01:18 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Come to the dark side! our words sound better | 01:19 |
| lardman | shame about some of our songs hey qwerty12_N800?! ;) | 01:19 |
| Myrtti | qwerty12_N800: there's no better word for cursing than perkele | 01:19 |
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| Myrtti | it's the RRRRR | 01:20 |
| * lardman curses n800 for very poor battery life these days | 01:20 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Ah, another Mark Haury® flamewar on -users. | 01:20 |
| Hirvinen | I also like kurwa. | 01:20 |
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| timeless | i wonder why i'm not on -users :) | 01:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | Everything he touches is guaranteed to descend into idiocy. | 01:20 |
| * lardman is happy -users only comes as a digest these days :) | 01:20 | |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless, you can't even handle -community. :P | 01:20 |
| Hirvinen | Can be combined nicely for kurwa perkele. | 01:21 |
| qwerty12_N800 | lardman: yeah, what is this hard candy shit :p | 01:21 |
| timeless | hey, i haven't unsubscribed yet! (unlike -devel) | 01:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | lardman, I'd likely blame the age of the battery. | 01:21 |
| lardman | qwerty12_N800: lol | 01:21 |
| Hirvinen | (Sometimes prepended with some Midgard component ;) | 01:21 |
| ds3 | lardman: what battery life are you seeing?? | 01:21 |
| lardman | GeneralAntilles: yeah probably | 01:21 |
| fireun | batteries are hot air | 01:21 |
| Myrtti | fy.sh: line 191: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `}' <-- ARGH | 01:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | lardman, my N800's life is starting to go down the tubes, too. | 01:22 |
| lardman | ds3: not sure exactly as it's usually plugged in, but not great | 01:22 |
| lcuk | ok, who told tracy about drive cloning | 01:22 |
| ds3 | lardman: can you still do a full day away from the charger? | 01:22 |
| lardman | no -users digest yet, something to look forward to for tomorrow ;) | 01:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'm also amazed at what itT is able to come up with when there's limited information to go on. | 01:23 |
| woglinde | good nite | 01:23 |
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| lardman | ds3: no idea, it's always sat on my desk for dev work, sorry | 01:23 |
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| lardman | GeneralAntilles: so you've got a dell? | 01:24 |
| lardman | or at least are waiting for one? | 01:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Waiting for one. | 01:24 |
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| lardman | is that the funny side screen thing, or a flash-drive laptop-style thing? | 01:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | But I may never get it since UPS arbitrarily likes to deliver things to the front office at 4:50PM. | 01:25 |
| lardman | s/side/wide | 01:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | "I don't feel like actually trying to deliver this package." | 01:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | lardman, it's a 9" netbook. | 01:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | and, of course, the web status doesn't change until after 5PM | 01:26 |
| lardman | I'm always impressed with the balls of some of the delivery drivers, no note, I was at home all day, yet you get a message saying a delivery was "attempted". hmm.... | 01:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | So I can't hit the road early tomorrow. Instead I have to wait around until the office opens at 10AM to leave. | 01:26 |
| lardman | yeah, the wonders of the online tracking which is updated once per day! | 01:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | I watched the UPS driver stop, wait, then drive away with my G5 at 7PM after I had taken the day off to wait for it. | 01:27 |
| lardman | ouch | 01:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | "Delivery attempted, recipient not at home." | 01:27 |
| lardman | I waited in a whole day a few years back for a new PC system, only to find they had dropped with with a neighbour at 9am and not left a note | 01:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | I guess you get what you pay for, though. | 01:28 |
| lcuk | lardman, i forgot to say thanks for the free pc | 01:28 |
| lardman | yeah $25 delivery hey? | 01:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | It'd all be a whole lot more reliable if we were paying 2x as much for shipping. | 01:28 |
| johnx | O_o; | 01:28 |
| johnx | or it would be reliable if people actually stopped using incompetent shipping companies | 01:28 |
| lardman | lcuk: is this the real deal or Mrs.-whywontmrlcukfioxmypcillkillhimsoon? | 01:28 |
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| derf | Once I was checking the status, and saw it had _just_ updated to "DELIVERED", and I'm like, I'm sitting right next to the door. Nobody delivered anything. | 01:28 |
| lcuk | lol the real deal, she has had me trying to get this fuffing thing working since we got back from school | 01:29 |
| lardman | derf: then you check the meter box | 01:29 |
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| GeneralAntilles | johnx, that's all of them. | 01:29 |
| derf | lardman: I checked outside, no package, no nothing... | 01:29 |
| derf | I'm about to call someone all pissed off, when a truck finally pulls up. | 01:29 |
| johnx | maybe it's time for me to talk to one of the places here about starting to offer service in the US... | 01:30 |
| derf | And the driver gets out with my package, "Yeah, I was just around the corner scanning packages." | 01:30 |
| lardman | derf: truck must have been moving very fast to affect the space-time continuum ;) | 01:30 |
| lardman | ah, I see :) | 01:30 |
| lcuk | but changing it to delivered before you accept the package is bad - you shouldv declined it no matter how much you wanted it | 01:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | In the US, you have a choice between FedEx, UPS, DHL, or USPS | 01:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | They all suck. | 01:31 |
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| lardman | GeneralAntilles: you get a choice over there! The free world! | 01:31 |
| johnx | here you have I think around 3 choices and they seem to all rock | 01:31 |
| lcuk | isnt it down to pride in your job | 01:31 |
| qwerty12_N800 | lardman: ey ey, we at least have more than one parcel delivery company here (surprise!) :p | 01:32 |
| johnx | it's down to high customer expectations, and losing business if they aren't met | 01:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx, arguably, I could find plenty of people in the states who love one of move of those carriers and wouldn't have a single bad thing to say about them. | 01:32 |
| johnx | also: less land mass to cover ;) | 01:32 |
| johnx | GeneralAntilles, yeah, but you'd have to be selective | 01:32 |
| lardman | qwerty12_N800: yeah well you live in London, the centre of the known universe (for stock brokers looking for work), I live in the West Country | 01:32 |
| lcuk | johnx, thats right about the expectations, the landmass isnt important, you jsut have less drivers | 01:32 |
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| derf | johnx: You live in Japan, service capital of the world. | 01:33 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Poor lardman. | 01:33 |
| * lcuk lives in the north. the driver from posting office brings round his cart once a week if we are lucky | 01:33 | |
| lardman | it's a hard life having to milk my own cows in the morning | 01:33 |
| lardman | lol | 01:33 |
| lardman | with the coal is that? | 01:33 |
| johnx | derf, yeah. it'd just be nice for one of the delivery places here to start up business in the US and give UPS/FedEx a real reason to shape up... | 01:33 |
| lcuk | noooooo coal is delivered on a wednesday by a nice chap with a limp and a gammy eye | 01:34 |
| derf | Nah, they'd never be able to compete on price that way and so no one would use them until they got sloppy and lazy, too. | 01:34 |
| vasily_pupkin | argh. GPE Cal white background annoying | 01:34 |
| lardman | lcuk: and on Thurs they take the dead..... :D | 01:34 |
| derf | I mean, unless they were staffed entirely with Japanese immigrants. | 01:34 |
| lcuk | lol cart sharing | 01:34 |
| derf | Who hadn't already been corrupted by the US. | 01:35 |
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| * lardman thinks of Monty Python, I think | 01:35 | |
| lcuk | heh yeah | 01:35 |
| lcuk | bart pe | 01:35 |
| johnx | derf, eh, they'd just tell people here that they had to move to the US to keep their jobs and if they did real good they'd get to move back in 1-2 years. That's the way most companies here seem to work | 01:36 |
| johnx | they'd probably have to take a loss at first until they built up a solid reputation | 01:36 |
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| * lardman heads for bed | 01:46 | |
| lardman | night all | 01:46 |
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| Myrtti | per-ke-le | 02:11 |
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| * Myrtti facepalms | 02:41 | |
| lcuk | that could leave a mark | 02:41 |
| lcuk | Myrtti, what did you break | 02:42 |
| Myrtti | I've done this so many times I know how to do it without leaving marks | 02:42 |
| Myrtti | lcuk: I just learned to use basename... | 02:42 |
| Myrtti | AI EES EN EEDJOT | 02:42 |
| johnx | let me guess: You wish you learned it a lot earlier? | 02:42 |
| lcuk | thankfully i dont know what basename is - tho ive prolly wrote the function myself :D | 02:42 |
| Myrtti | FOR FUCKS SAKEEEEEE | 02:43 |
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| Myrtti | aarrghghg | 02:43 |
| johnx | lcuk, if you run: basename /bin/echo it returns echo | 02:43 |
| lcuk | heh, yeah, ive wrote a function to do that | 02:44 |
| Myrtti | I had two lines of sed to do what baseline pwd can do | 02:44 |
| Myrtti | ARRGHGAHSFDGLKHAFGb nfA | 02:44 |
| * lcuk was using pure c tho | 02:44 | |
| johnx | should use cut for that anyways :) | 02:44 |
| Myrtti | *HUAH* | 02:44 |
| * Myrtti rolls | 02:44 | |
| lcuk | char *liqapp_filename_walkoverpath(char *filename); | 02:45 |
| johnx | huh...actually, you're write, it's non-trivial to pick out the *last* element | 02:45 |
| johnx | s/write/right/ | 02:45 |
| infobot | johnx meant: huh...actually, you're right, it's non-trivial to pick out the *last* element | 02:45 |
| lcuk | its trivial but you have to walk the entire string to find it | 02:46 |
| Myrtti | lcuk: you're talking to a person who knows about *real* programming about as much as a pig knows about French renaissance novelwrights | 02:46 |
| Myrtti | so excuse me while I'm an idiot :-D | 02:47 |
| lcuk | Myrtti, i write visual basic in the day time. | 02:47 |
| Myrtti | lcuk: I write bash, sed and awk. | 02:47 |
| johnx | lcuk, I mean with cut and/or sed | 02:47 |
| Myrtti | those are my tools. I'm useless with everything else. | 02:47 |
| lcuk | you know more languages than me | 02:47 |
| * lcuk is useless in linux | 02:48 | |
| Myrtti | bash is nice. it allows arrays. | 02:48 |
| lcuk | now you are the second person ive seen saying that | 02:48 |
| lcuk | isnt bash like cmd.exe | 02:48 |
| lcuk | on steroids | 02:48 |
| johnx | it allows arrays, but it takes some of your soul in return... | 02:48 |
| lcuk | arrays of what though | 02:48 |
| lcuk | lemon slices are delicious | 02:49 |
| lcuk | and middle bacon is horrible | 02:49 |
| fireun | bash is nice, fish is better | 02:49 |
| fireun | cmd.exe is a joke | 02:49 |
| Myrtti | johnx: I'd do this with zsh if I had the luxury to assume that it's available. | 02:49 |
| lcuk | what about microsoft gonad? (or whatever its real name is ) | 02:49 |
| johnx | bash is the logical descendant of sh. cmd.exe is kind of a barely related cousin... | 02:49 |
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| johnx | is monad even out yet? | 02:50 |
| lcuk | monad! thats its name | 02:50 |
| lcuk | im not sure i just remember reading about it being cmd.exe with .net underneath, sorta like vbscript++ | 02:51 |
| johnx | just repeat this to yourself every time MS adds a feature: "Those who don't learn from Unix are doomed to reimplement it, poorly." | 02:51 |
| lcuk | whats the unix way to make a mobile internet device? | 02:52 |
| johnx | probably the bugbase :) | 02:53 |
| johnx | individual tools that do one thing, and do it well, but can be connected with each other | 02:53 |
| johnx | but I'm not so sure that software engineering principals can be sanely applied to hardware... | 02:53 |
| lcuk | but there is the software to run on the hardware | 02:54 |
| lcuk | the apis arent always in shape in time and compromises are made | 02:54 |
| johnx | Unix is a compromise on Multics :) | 02:55 |
| johnx | the whole OS is just one big compromise | 02:55 |
| lcuk | yeah, you keep everything together with sticking plasters until the original form cannot be seen | 02:56 |
| lcuk | occasionally its good to have a clear out though :) | 02:56 |
| johnx | ah, but that's the trick: Instead of making things that need to be plastered together, you make them out of lego bricks in the first place | 02:56 |
| * lcuk likes lego | 02:57 | |
| lcuk | the problem with lego though is that you cannot build more lego with lego | 02:57 |
| johnx | I'm pretty sure you could implement bash in bash...it would just...hurt | 02:58 |
| johnx | a lot | 02:58 |
| lcuk | lol | 02:58 |
| Myrtti | OH EM EF GEE | 02:58 |
| Myrtti | it works ;___; | 02:59 |
| johnx | yay! | 02:59 |
| johnx | congrats | 02:59 |
| derf | bash is Turing complete. | 02:59 |
| lcuk | john, i started peeking at x11 window stuff and reading around matchbox and other wms and stuff | 02:59 |
| lcuk | Myrtti, what are you building | 02:59 |
| Myrtti | lcuk: you'll see :-P | 02:59 |
| johnx | and what do you think about the world of X11 window managers? crazy, eh? | 03:00 |
| lcuk | well Myrtti i already know what you are doing (jaiku..) i was just lazy and couldnt remember | 03:00 |
| lcuk | well for now ive done nothing more than a cursory glance | 03:01 |
| johnx | well, did you see anything interesting? | 03:02 |
| Myrtti | lcuk: I'll poke you when you can see what I've been doing | 03:02 |
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| lcuk | lol ok | 03:03 |
| lcuk | johnx, i see glimpes | 03:03 |
| lcuk | johnx, i see glimpses | 03:03 |
| Myrtti | right now I can say that this is darn pretty | 03:03 |
| lcuk | http://liqbase.net/liq.20090303_033416.lib.scr.png | 03:03 |
| Myrtti | and if I'd be selfish, I could build up shitload of karma with this, but :-P | 03:04 |
| johnx | thinking of window layout strategies? | 03:04 |
| lcuk | Myrtti, :) go for the glory | 03:04 |
| lcuk | well ive already got a decent window layout strategy | 03:04 |
| Myrtti | lcuk: nah | 03:04 |
| Myrtti | I don't really care | 03:04 |
| johnx | sooo, task switching? | 03:04 |
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| lcuk | not even that so far johnx, just playing | 03:05 |
| lcuk | task switching is fine, but that still implies you start and stop applications | 03:06 |
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| juksuttaja | humdidum | 03:07 |
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| juksuttaja | anyone alive here? | 03:09 |
| johnx | juksuttaja, I'm afraid so | 03:10 |
| juksuttaja | oh.. | 03:10 |
| johnx | :) | 03:10 |
| juksuttaja | in that case; | 03:10 |
| juksuttaja | do you happen to be familiar with maemo x86 sdk? | 03:10 |
| juksuttaja | 'emulator' | 03:10 |
| johnx | somewhat, but there are other people on here who are more familiar | 03:10 |
| juksuttaja | ok, my problem is most likely quite easy one; | 03:11 |
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| juksuttaja | 1. i install sdk 4.1.2 according to install.txt | 03:11 |
| juksuttaja | 2. everything works fine (i suppose) | 03:11 |
| juksuttaja | 3. i install xchat | 03:12 |
| juksuttaja | 4. --> unable to connect | 03:12 |
| johnx | can you ping from the shell? | 03:12 |
| juksuttaja | wget works fine in scratchbox , but i haven't figured out how to open shell in emulator | 03:13 |
| johnx | if you can install xchat you should be able to install roxterm or similar | 03:14 |
| johnx | I assume you got xchat from extras? | 03:14 |
| juksuttaja | yes | 03:15 |
| juksuttaja | so roxterm should be visible in emulator after installation - and it's available from maemo.org repositories? | 03:15 |
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| johnx | yeah, it's available from either extras or extras-devel | 03:17 |
| juksuttaja | hmm.. operation not permitted | 03:25 |
| juksuttaja | so no i can't ping | 03:25 |
| juksuttaja | also 'host www.google.com' returned nameserver not running | 03:25 |
| juksuttaja | but 'wget www.google.com' works | 03:27 |
| juksuttaja | all these from roxterm | 03:27 |
| johnx | what does the hosts: line say in /etc/nsswitch.conf | 03:29 |
| Firebird | hmm, how do I step forward the version of a debian package | 03:31 |
| juksuttaja | johnx, 'files dns' | 03:31 |
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| johnx | Firebird, you're making a package? or you want to apt-get upgrade just one package? | 03:32 |
| Firebird | making one.. like what do I put in the control or changelog files | 03:32 |
| johnx | dch -i | 03:33 |
| johnx | just type that in the top directory of the package and it will do the rest | 03:33 |
| johnx | if you want to manually specify the version string it's dch -v 0.1-maemo2 | 03:33 |
| Firebird | ah, cool | 03:33 |
| jaem | hello | 03:34 |
| jaem | I just got my bluetooth-enabled LCD bracelet in the mail today... :D | 03:35 |
| jaem | does anyone know if there's a way to open up communications to a HFP BT device from Maemo? e.g. a serial console, or some such thing? | 03:35 |
| Firebird | the LED bracelet from thinkgeek? neat | 03:37 |
| jaem | Firebird: like that, only better - with a 1x12 char LCD - and cheaper | 03:37 |
| Firebird | ah, cool | 03:37 |
| jaem | it's on DX for $40 CAD, with free shipping - yay | 03:37 |
| jaem | I'm just looking into things... bluez seems to have a lack of easily available docs for the user level | 03:38 |
| jaem | I'd like to see if I can get it to display arbitrary strings on the LCD | 03:38 |
| johnx | might want to look at hciconfig? | 03:38 |
| jaem | johnx: willdo... I was asking because I didn't really know where to start looking ;) | 03:38 |
| jaem | unfortunately, I think my desktop's BT dongle died recently | 03:39 |
| jaem | piece of junk... >:( | 03:39 |
| johnx | yeah, I don't really know either. I have only limited experience with serial bt devices... | 03:39 |
| jaem | I hope I can figure out something. It has an LCD, a vibra motor, a button, and BT - there could be some interesting uses | 03:39 |
| jaem | also, Hackaday issued a Hackit challenge on the device, and I'd like to have 15 minutes of fame | 03:40 |
| jaem | ...and an increase in blog traffic couldn't hurt ;) | 03:40 |
| jaem | I had a Skype bot try to pull a 419 scam on me earlier today.. | 03:41 |
| jaem | it was actually fairly well done - I was impressed | 03:41 |
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| jaem | it could answer basic questions, and if I hadn't been me, I might have believed it was real | 03:42 |
| johnx | huh, what did it want? | 03:42 |
| jaem | the standard advance payment fraud deal | 03:43 |
| johnx | so you would have believed the scam was real or that the bot was really a live scammer? | 03:43 |
| jaem | the latter | 03:43 |
| jaem | in the conversation I had with it, it was reasonably hard to tell | 03:44 |
| jaem | but it was slightly too canned to be real | 03:44 |
| jaem | I just wanted to see what would happen, so I played along until it gave away the whole thing | 03:44 |
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| jaem | it tried to convince me to add it as a Skype contact before it would tell me the whole story | 03:45 |
| jaem | lol | 03:45 |
| jaem | stupid bot | 03:45 |
| jaem | by the way, is anyone else here using minigpsd, from Extras? | 03:48 |
| johnx | that's actually kind of awesome | 03:49 |
| jaem | yeah | 03:50 |
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| johnx | the scammers will bring about the first AI, and its prime directive will be to scam the world | 03:50 |
| jaem | it almost had me going for a bit... that is, until it actually pulled out the scam speech | 03:50 |
| jaem | it's quite possible | 03:50 |
| b-man | Wohooo!!! - i've got Avant Window Navigator running on my N800 running ubuntu; http://www.bman.maemobox.org/projects/ubuntu-n8x0/screenshots/Screenshot-10.png - who said you can't get awn running on the tablets :D | 03:50 |
| jaem | not I | 03:50 |
| jaem | nice! | 03:51 |
| jaem | doesn't that violate Apple's supposed patents ;) | 03:51 |
| jaem | not that anyone really cares | 03:51 |
| jaem | I still can't believe they were awarded the patent on the dock, after all this time :S | 03:52 |
| b-man | hehe | 03:53 |
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| jaem | b-man: how is performance on Ubuntu for the N8x0? I was running a minimal install of LXDE, and it just crawled, even with 256MB of swap | 03:59 |
| b-man | hmm | 03:59 |
| jaem | also, how do you solve the pointer calibration issues? I copied over what the calibration file in /etc, and it tracked the stylus properly, but it was extremely sensitive, to the point that it wasn't useable | 04:00 |
| jaem | aside from that, though, it looks great :P | 04:00 |
| b-man | you should not need to copy over that file | 04:00 |
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| jaem | oh? It was a fair bit off until I did, although not as much as it was for Deblet when I tried it a month or two back | 04:01 |
| b-man | xserver-xorg-input-tslib takes care of that | 04:01 |
| jaem | well, it didn't appear to work properly for me... | 04:01 |
| jaem | hmm | 04:01 |
| jaem | I don't have it currently installed, unfortunately | 04:02 |
| neatojones | jaem: you have to make sure you have the version from Mer repos installed. It'll try and update to the ubuntu one, which doesn't work | 04:02 |
| jaem | ah.. that could be it. I did follow the install instructions to the letter, however | 04:02 |
| neatojones | also, lxde (and every other wm) used to crawl for me. I found out that gnome-keyring-daemon has issues with nm-applet | 04:03 |
| jaem | okay | 04:03 |
| jaem | I never use gnome-keyring-daemon anyhow | 04:03 |
| jaem | I find it annoying | 04:03 |
| neatojones | so, you have to kill gnome-keyring-daemon and find an alternative to nm-applet | 04:03 |
| jaem | I didn't have nm-applet running, thoguh | 04:03 |
| jaem | I used wifi-radar | 04:03 |
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| neatojones | hmm. Not sure if it was the same problem though. But, I thought it was horribly slow until I realized gnome-keyring-daemon was stalling the system. | 04:04 |
| b-man | jaem: the ubuntu-n8x0 repo is still uncomplete - that's why i'm still using the deblet and mer repos | 04:05 |
| b-man | allong side | 04:05 |
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| * b-man has full gnome installed and he doesn't have any speed issues, hmm | 04:07 | |
| jaem | I'll give it another shot when you finish setting up the repos | 04:08 |
| jaem | and when I have more spare time | 04:08 |
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| * jaem facepalms | 04:10 | |
| * b-man has a really crummy wierless connection atm XP | 04:10 | |
| jaem | did the Bluetooth SIG *actually* use clipart from MS Office 97? | 04:11 |
| jaem | SERIOUSLY? | 04:11 |
| jaem | in the HFP spec, no less | 04:11 |
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| jaem | that's just sad... | 04:11 |
| FireFox16 | mhm | 04:12 |
| johnx | jaem, looking into those bt watches and such now | 04:12 |
| johnx | looks quite interesting | 04:13 |
| jaem | yes it does | 04:13 |
| jaem | I'm not sure if they can display arbitrary text | 04:13 |
| jaem | the spec is not very easy to jump into | 04:13 |
| jaem | but it looks like it may be limited to numbers only | 04:13 |
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| * jaem pulls out his precision screwdrivers, and prepares to pop the case :D | 04:14 | |
| jaem | the PCB is nice and accessible | 04:14 |
| jaem | that's always a plus | 04:14 |
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| johnx | I like the idea from the commenter about using a buffer overflow to run arbitrary code. even if it's not true, it's a nice thought... | 04:15 |
| jaem | yeah | 04:15 |
| jaem | mmmm... everybody loves boardshots, right? | 04:15 |
| * jaem prepares to take some | 04:15 | |
| * FireFox16 's going to fool everyone by installing the mac4lin theme in gnome allong side awn and globalmenu - that is, everyone who has never seen an N800 :D | 04:15 | |
| johnx | I'd like to see it | 04:15 |
| jaem | I'll link you when I have them up | 04:15 |
| jaem | hahaha | 04:15 |
| jaem | FF: the sad part is that people would believe you | 04:16 |
| FireFox16 | XD | 04:16 |
| neatojones | ...pure genious ;) | 04:16 |
| jaem | I was talking to a friend who said he knew people who thought vanilla GNOME /was/ Mac, merely because it had a panel at the top >_< | 04:16 |
| FireFox16 | lol | 04:16 |
| neatojones | the ugliest version of OSX I ever saw... | 04:17 |
| FireFox16 | lol x10000 | 04:17 |
| neatojones | some gnome themes are decent. Ubuntu's are butt ugly. | 04:17 |
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| FireFox16 | yup | 04:17 |
| neatojones | brown+ugly=butt ugly | 04:17 |
| jaem | have you seen Dust? | 04:18 |
| jaem | it's actually quite nice, and a lot of people were disappointed that it didn't make Intrepid | 04:18 |
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| FireFox16 | Dust? | 04:19 |
| neatojones | I don't remember. | 04:19 |
| FireFox16 | ahh, i hate this connection >.< | 04:19 |
| jaem | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/DustTheme | 04:19 |
| FireFox16 | wow, nice :) | 04:20 |
| neatojones | unfortunately, gnome has a lot of problems with dark themes. | 04:21 |
| jaem | it does indeed | 04:21 |
| neatojones | well, not gnome so much as openoffice and firefox | 04:21 |
| jaem | KDE4 does occasionally too | 04:21 |
| jaem | Kopete, anyways | 04:21 |
| FireFox16 | i wonder when thay will actually work on that.. | 04:22 |
| jaem | I think it's fixed now, but a while back, when I used a dark theme, and then switched to a light theme, it would send all my chat text formatted as almost unreadable light gray, until I restarted the session :( | 04:22 |
| FireFox16 | hmm :( | 04:22 |
| neatojones | what engine does Dust use? | 04:22 |
| jaem | Murrine, I thin | 04:23 |
| jaem | think* | 04:23 |
| jaem | oh well, boardshots will have to wait until after dinner | 04:25 |
| jaem | but I'll have them ASAP, hopefully | 04:25 |
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| FireFox16 | metacity, marriene? | 04:25 |
| FireFox16 | not shure | 04:25 |
| FireFox16 | it uses murrine | 04:25 |
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| * FireFox16 thinks about actually giving murrine another try.. | 04:31 | |
| FireFox16 | i think i'm pushing my luck :) | 04:31 |
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| sisto | I've tried canola player today | 05:02 |
| sisto | it's quite nice | 05:02 |
| sisto | i liked it better than mediabox | 05:04 |
| sisto | mediabox takes to long to load | 05:04 |
| sisto | what media player does the n810 come with? | 05:09 |
| Proteous | media player | 05:09 |
| sisto | from nokia right? | 05:09 |
| Proteous | I assume | 05:09 |
| sisto | i think it's not open source... but I'm not sure | 05:11 |
| johnx | correct, it's closed source | 05:13 |
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| neatojones | what's the terminal command that checks which keyboard style is being used? | 05:31 |
| b-man | not shure | 05:33 |
| b-man | xmodmap? | 05:34 |
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| neatojones | ah figured it out..setxkbmap -print | 05:47 |
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| jaem | oh man... this bluetooth bracelet may indeed be hackable... | 05:55 |
| benson | O.o | 05:56 |
| jaem | apparently, I should be able to read the firmware out through the UART | 05:56 |
| benson | That sounds like fun | 05:56 |
| jaem | providing that it's exposed | 05:56 |
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| jaem | there are some pads that look vaguely like some sort of serial interface | 05:56 |
| jaem | but I haven't investigated yet | 05:56 |
| jaem | it has 8Mb of external flash, and an internal 6Mb ROM | 05:57 |
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| benson | What CPU? | 06:00 |
| jaem | it's running a specialized Bluetooth chip from CSR | 06:01 |
| jaem | it handles BT, battery charging, etc., and has a RISC core that I'm trying to find out more about | 06:01 |
| jaem | the flash is from Spansion | 06:01 |
| jaem | and I haven't looked into the LCD yet | 06:02 |
| johnx | craziness. that's a reasonable chunk of storage | 06:02 |
| jaem | indeed it is | 06:02 |
| johnx | could have it stream a short novel :) | 06:02 |
| jaem | I'm not sure why it needs 8Mb | 06:02 |
| jaem | hahaha | 06:02 |
| johnx | one. word. at. a. time. | 06:03 |
| jaem | I'm writing up a post with a teardown | 06:03 |
| jaem | I'll link you all when I'm done | 06:03 |
| johnx | cool beans | 06:03 |
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| jaem | BT bracelet teardown: http://ffejery.wordpress.com/2009/03/06/everybody-loves-boardshots-right/ | 06:28 |
| jaem | my camera fails at macro, so some shots kind of stink | 06:29 |
| jaem | but what you can't read, I'll add to the post :P | 06:29 |
| johnx | looks cool, but I'm not terribly helpful for hardware hacking I'm afraid | 06:34 |
| johnx | if you need help getting a serial console on it, I might be able to offer some pointers to things smarter people than me have written at least ;) | 06:35 |
| jaem | thanks | 06:35 |
| jaem | that might be useful | 06:35 |
| jaem | what's an N800 in decent condition worth these days? | 06:38 |
| johnx | dunno really. a used N810 seems to be around $200 now that new ones are $219 | 06:39 |
| johnx | ebay buy-it-now says $150-$450 :) | 06:40 |
| benson | 450! XD | 06:42 |
| jaem | ha | 06:42 |
| jaem | that's ridiculous | 06:42 |
| johnx | yeah, with a 'scratch on the screen' | 06:42 |
| johnx | looks like he missed the memo | 06:42 |
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| benson | 150 or so, from what I've seen. Maybe less, depending on what "decent" condition means. | 06:42 |
| johnx | mine's hot no scratches on the screen, so how about $500 even. what a bargain, eh? | 06:43 |
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| jaem | aww man... the proc on this bracelet has proprietary extensions to the firmware upgrade standard, to allow Tivoization | 07:01 |
| jaem | I hope this company didn't take advantage of that | 07:01 |
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| jaem | apparently it can use public key auth :( | 07:01 |
| johnx | hopefully not. I certainly don't see the money in it for a bt bracelet thing... | 07:03 |
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| jaem | yeah... did you ever hear the story of the guys who defeated Microchip's code-protection on the PICmicros? | 07:04 |
| johnx | nothing at all. haven't even heard of the company or product :) | 07:07 |
| jaem | they make microcontrollers | 07:07 |
| jaem | and they have a feature to stop people from reading the firmware out of the controller, if the company so desired | 07:08 |
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| johnx | and so someone broke the protection for all the PICs? | 07:08 |
| jaem | well, they used to use UV-erasable EPROM, and the protection was set by a bitflag in a config word in the main memory | 07:08 |
| johnx | (guess I have heard of the product/company now that I think about it) | 07:08 |
| jaem | so, some guys figured out where in the physical memory layout that bit was, and flipped it with a UV laser | 07:09 |
| jaem | :D | 07:09 |
| johnx | O_o | 07:09 |
| johnx | well, then get your UV laser out and get working :P | 07:09 |
| jaem | Microchip mitigated the problem by just putting a little dot over that bit :P | 07:09 |
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| johnx | OMGWTFBBQ! Xfbdev running finally! | 07:12 |
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| johnx | man Xfbdev is one finicky X server. seriously, it segfaults without the proper font path O_o | 07:14 |
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| jaem | ouch | 07:17 |
| johnx | and I don't even care since it *actually works* | 07:18 |
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| luke-jr | johnx: ☺ | 07:21 |
| luke-jr | johnx: I managed to squeeze my N810 into my C760 | 07:21 |
| luke-jr | and installed KDE 4.2 | 07:21 |
| luke-jr | now it's a sweet little lapto | 07:21 |
| johnx | pics? | 07:22 |
| luke-jr | j/k ☹ | 07:22 |
| johnx | yeah, thought so | 07:22 |
| luke-jr | XD] | 07:22 |
| johnx | I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt approximately once | 07:22 |
| luke-jr | >.> | 07:22 |
| jaem | I do so approximately 1.36 times | 07:23 |
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| jaem | maybe more, if their family has 2.4 children | 07:23 |
| jaem | XD | 07:23 |
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| * johnx pictures little timmy waving goodbye with all three arms | 07:24 | |
| luke-jr | O.o | 07:24 |
| luke-jr | jaem: I have 2.2 children, close enough? | 07:24 |
| jaem | if you can prove it, sure | 07:24 |
| luke-jr | jaem: I can‼ | 07:24 |
| jaem | oh wait... that was your first two strikes | 07:24 |
| luke-jr | do I need to actually do it, though? | 07:24 |
| jaem | you just wasted your "benefit of the doubt" coupons by lying about your children | 07:25 |
| luke-jr | I didn't lie tho | 07:25 |
| luke-jr | I have family pics with the first two | 07:25 |
| luke-jr | and a sonogram of the .2 | 07:25 |
| jaem | oh... okay | 07:25 |
| * johnx doesn't want to go out in the rain, because he might melt :( | 07:25 | |
| * jaem hands johnx an umbrella | 07:25 | |
| johnx | yeah, yeah :/ | 07:25 |
| * jaem then pulls out a firehose | 07:25 | |
| luke-jr | johnx: sonograms count as proof, right? :x | 07:25 |
| jaem | probably | 07:26 |
| johnx | dunno if anything will work as proof for you, you already used up your ~1 'benefit of the doubt' coupon with me :P | 07:26 |
| jaem | but just keep your stories plausable, and we won't need to go into any of this :P | 07:26 |
| luke-jr | jaem: whats not plausable? | 07:26 |
| jaem | hmm | 07:26 |
| johnx | yeah, we can just do the 'suspension of disbelief' thing | 07:26 |
| johnx | usually children are considered to exist in one of two quantum states | 07:27 |
| jaem | luke-jr: here's an example: "oh no, I'm not robbing you, I just happen to have a gun in my hand. Would you mind making a donation?" | 07:27 |
| luke-jr | well, then I get to round to 3 | 07:27 |
| jaem | johnx: alive or dead? | 07:27 |
| jaem | or both? | 07:27 |
| johnx | children or not-children | 07:27 |
| jaem | ah | 07:27 |
| luke-jr | johnx: did my 3rd child exist or not exist before the sonogram? ;) | 07:28 |
| johnx | undefined state? | 07:28 |
| jaem | more to the point, did the sonogram *change* its state of existence | 07:28 |
| jaem | O.o | 07:28 |
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| luke-jr | jaem: no | 07:29 |
| luke-jr | even if the sonogram causes the quantum state to collapse, it didn't cause the change ;) | 07:29 |
| jaem | hehe | 07:29 |
| jaem | you know, I figure that whether Schroedinger's cat is alive or dead is a stupid question... | 07:30 |
| luke-jr | I personally am of the opinion that when a quantum state collapses, God chooses which superposition becomes reality. | 07:30 |
| jaem | Schroedinger is dead, and even supposing a cat with nine lives, you'd think it would be dead by now | 07:30 |
| jaem | especially if good ol' Erwin repeated the experiment a few times for scientific rigour | 07:30 |
| luke-jr | I'm actually somewhat surprised we have two other people in here familiar with quantum stuff. | 07:31 |
| jaem | oh and yes, PETA killed Schroedinger :P | 07:31 |
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| johnx | <- passing familiarity only | 07:31 |
| jaem | well, to be honest, I've never taken a course in it - I just know a bit more than enough to make geeky jokes :P | 07:31 |
| luke-jr | johnx: same here, I think | 07:31 |
| luke-jr | my interest primarily stemmed from Noein | 07:31 |
| jaem | and of course, I read The Guide | 07:31 |
| johnx | and/or 'Wikipedia simple English edition tells me everything I need to know' | 07:32 |
| jaem | who? | 07:32 |
| luke-jr | Noein is an anime revolving around MWI | 07:32 |
| johnx | me | 07:32 |
| jaem | ah | 07:32 |
| luke-jr | the bad guy aims to merge all the various universes back into a single superposition | 07:33 |
| luke-jr | basically by destroying everything :p | 07:33 |
| johnx | and some high school kids stop him in a giant robot? | 07:33 |
| luke-jr | well, some middle school kids stop him from one of their possible futures | 07:33 |
| luke-jr | o.O | 07:34 |
| jaem | interesting | 07:34 |
| * johnx called it | 07:34 | |
| luke-jr | the bad guy technically exists as 3 different characters | 07:34 |
| luke-jr | the middle school version and two of the possible futures | 07:34 |
| jaem | have you seen the show Futurama? | 07:35 |
| luke-jr | one of his possible futures gets so depressed that he sets out to destroy the multiverse :p | 07:35 |
| luke-jr | no | 07:35 |
| luke-jr | maybe 1 or 2 episodes years ago | 07:35 |
| jaem | it has some interesting things like that. In one episode, they travel to various parallel universes... | 07:35 |
| jaem | such as ones where everyone is a bobblehead :P | 07:36 |
| luke-jr | O.o | 07:36 |
| luke-jr | well, one of the possible futures in Noein had everyone as a superposition dependent on a supercomputer observing them | 07:36 |
| luke-jr | eg, the humans could no longer be observers | 07:36 |
| jaem | hmm | 07:37 |
| jaem | interesting | 07:37 |
| jaem | have you seen the movie "Primer"? | 07:37 |
| luke-jr | nope :p | 07:37 |
| jaem | you might find it interesting | 07:37 |
| johnx | primer++ :) | 07:37 |
| jaem | it's available on the Internets, of course, but I'm planning on buying the DVD when I have some cash | 07:37 |
| jaem | it's about time travel, but it's not your typical fantastical sci-fi | 07:38 |
| jaem | it's an independant film, and it's somewhat unconventional | 07:38 |
| luke-jr | I don't think I've ever bought information. <.< | 07:38 |
| jaem | but interesting, and worth a watch | 07:38 |
| johnx | it's entirely self consistent, which is somewhat rare in time travel movies :) | 07:38 |
| jaem | well, I can understand that, but the guy quit his job as a software engineer to make a movie, because he wanted to do something different, and spent several years on it, with almost no money, so I figure I owe it to him to buy the DVD | 07:39 |
| jaem | johnx: you've seen it, then? | 07:39 |
| johnx | yes, repeatedly | 07:39 |
| jaem | I need to watch it again | 07:39 |
| jaem | it's rather complicated, and the audio being out of sync didn't help my comprehension | 07:39 |
| johnx | yeah, it definitely is rewatchable | 07:39 |
| luke-jr | jaem: I'd consider buying information if the license was GPL or BSD like | 07:39 |
| jaem | fair enough - I balk at buying software | 07:40 |
| luke-jr | johnx: Somewhere In Time? | 07:40 |
| jaem | but I still might occasionally do so, if there were no alternative, and I felt it was worth it | 07:40 |
| * b-man sleeps | 07:40 | |
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| luke-jr | pretty sure Somewhere In Time was quite self-consistent | 07:41 |
| RST38h | ehlo all | 07:43 |
| jaem | good day to you | 07:43 |
| jaem | johnx: I'm pretty sure the UART is accessible :D | 07:44 |
| jaem | but I can't do any more peering at PCBs tonight | 07:44 |
| jaem | much less anything more ambitious | 07:44 |
| johnx | still, good progress for a night :) | 07:44 |
| johnx | hey RST38h | 07:44 |
| jaem | yeah, it is | 07:44 |
| jaem | I still plan to see if I can make it do what I want without modifications of the device, but it's still worth poking around | 07:45 |
| jaem | there's almost no one in #bluez-users, and I'm having trouble finding good docs | 07:46 |
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| * RST38h needs wazd: it looks like ti83+ faceplate image is missing | 08:09 | |
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| jaem | does anyone know how to open up RFCOMM communication with a bluetooth device on Maemo | 08:13 |
| jaem | I think I may have already asked that, but I forget :S | 08:13 |
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| johnx | jaem, check out the bluez-utils-test (or similar?) package | 08:27 |
| jaem | aha! | 08:27 |
| johnx | it should have more of the traditional linux tools like hciconfig | 08:28 |
| jaem | be that available for ze Maemo? | 08:28 |
| johnx | yeah, that's the maemo package | 08:28 |
| jaem | nice - thanks | 08:28 |
| johnx | it's in bluez-utils in most distros | 08:28 |
| jaem | well, g'night | 08:28 |
| jaem | ah | 08:28 |
| jaem | thanks for all the help | 08:28 |
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| johnx | sure, 'night :) | 08:28 |
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| Stskeeps | morning | 09:10 |
| qwerty12 | hi Stskeeps | 09:10 |
| Stskeeps | hi qwerty12 | 09:10 |
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| vasily_pupkin | anybody knows how to fix GPE Calendar bug with dark themes? (yellow on white) | 09:24 |
| Corsac | calendars are a pain on maemo :( | 09:25 |
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| vasily_pupkin | yep. but org-mode with emacs is about overhead | 09:26 |
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| Corsac | emacs sucks anyway :) | 09:30 |
| vasily_pupkin | !!!! | 09:30 |
| qwerty12 | Ok, break it up. | 09:30 |
| Stskeeps | oi, emacs vs vim war is bad in the morning | 09:30 |
| qwerty12 | I don't want to get out the cosh. | 09:30 |
| vasily_pupkin | ^_^ But how about gpe calendar? :) | 09:31 |
| Corsac | aren't we friday? | 09:31 |
| Corsac | vasily_pupkin: I don't know but it might be a problem in the theme, too | 09:32 |
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| vasily_pupkin | i not very familar with gtk+ and themes. but may be there information about that type of widget missed? | 09:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12, the wide dialogs really look a lot better. | 09:34 |
| qwerty12 | GeneralAntilles, yeah. They actually seem like you can use them with a finger :) | 09:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | Thin dialogs have always been an irritation. | 09:35 |
| qwerty12 | It'd be cool if some libhildon goodness from the alpha could be backported to diablo | 09:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | Clutter? | 09:36 |
| Corsac | you guys have started using the alpha SDK UI? | 09:36 |
| qwerty12 | I don't think the file chooser dialogs use clutter at least (just kinetic which the N8x0 doesn't do terribly bad at) | 09:36 |
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| Pavlov | do do do | 09:37 |
| * qwerty12 looks down at his history homework and looks at the clock and gulps | 09:37 | |
| Pavlov | think we finally have extras all sorted out hurray | 09:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12, "shit happened". :P | 09:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | Pavlov, congratulations! :P | 09:38 |
| Pavlov | another few days ;) | 09:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | Pavlov, another few days and you can start working on a week of endless build failures? :P | 09:39 |
| qwerty12 | GeneralAntilles, lol, I think my history teacher has a Napoleon complex of sorts so I dunno if that would go down too well... :P | 09:39 |
| Pavlov | nah it builds debs and such and signs them | 09:39 |
| Pavlov | think we're good to go | 09:39 |
| Pavlov | just getting last fix in before b1 | 09:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12, Napoleon complex like "I'm not OK with being short" or Napoleon complex like "I really love Napoleon"? :P | 09:40 |
| X-Fade | Morning | 09:40 |
| qwerty12 | GeneralAntilles, "I'm not OK with being short". Everyone in my class is either the same size as him or taller :P | 09:41 |
| qwerty12 | morning X-Fade | 09:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ha | 09:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, what's the status of Extras .install files these days? | 09:42 |
| X-Fade | Non-existant atm. | 09:42 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12: a Fremantle backport doesn't seem so difficult really, but it has less potential of attracting developers and it will end up not being maintained :/ | 09:42 |
| qwerty12 | Stskeeps, yeah, I'm not interested in the whole thing but parts from libhildon would be cool :/ | 09:43 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12: should be trivial but how would you distribute it? :P | 09:43 |
| qwerty12 | Stskeeps, license wise? | 09:44 |
| qwerty12 | Or just plain distribution? | 09:44 |
| Stskeeps | qwerty12: plain distribution, doubt it would work in extras :P | 09:44 |
| qwerty12 | GeneralAntilles, I just take the one it generates for extras-devel and do s/-devel// and s/Devel// | 09:44 |
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| qwerty12 | Stskeeps, lol, I never planned to upload it :P | 09:45 |
| qwerty12 | (well to Extras I mean) | 09:45 |
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| Stskeeps | qwerty12: i bet you thought about it ;p | 09:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12, unfortunately it's missing a few. http://repository.maemo.org/extras/dists/diablo/install/ | 09:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | s/I/It/ | 09:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | Nevermind | 09:45 |
| * GeneralAntilles puts his glasses on. | 09:45 | |
| X-Fade | qwerty12: The .installs get generated when a packages comes through the incoming queue. | 09:46 |
| qwerty12 | GeneralAntilles, yeah, it's odd that way (why does it love non-free) :( but extras-devel has a greater range: http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/dists/diablo/install/ | 09:46 |
| X-Fade | Builder puts files in the incoming queue for extras-devel. | 09:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | jeremiah_, ping? | 09:46 |
| X-Fade | Promoter doesn't use the queue.. | 09:46 |
| X-Fade | The promoter would need to be changed to move files to the queue, instead of directly copying files into the repo. | 09:47 |
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| X-Fade | But maybe danielwilms can help with that ;) | 09:47 |
| danielwilms | yep...yesterday I did not have time to look in the code...but it is a good point | 09:48 |
| danielwilms | I will see what I can do ;) | 09:49 |
| X-Fade | danielwilms: Heh. Well it would be a nice thing to have and a well defined task to start off.. | 09:50 |
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| danielwilms | X-Fade: yep that's true | 09:51 |
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| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, do you have that application karma mockup link handy from yesterday? | 10:07 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/MyFedora/Mockups#Package_Details ? | 10:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | That's the one, thanks. | 10:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'm gonna wireframe a task page for application karma. | 10:08 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Don't confuse this karma with application karma. | 10:08 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: This is karma for the _package_ | 10:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | Right | 10:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | What's the term we want to use to make it as clear as possible? | 10:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | Karma for applications? | 10:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | (still sounds like user karma for applications) | 10:09 |
| X-Fade | Karma for applications is to be used to push cool, userfriendly apps of the moment to the top. | 10:10 |
| X-Fade | So one can see what is hot at the moment. | 10:10 |
| X-Fade | It would make picking 'Pearls' be community based and automatic. | 10:11 |
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| X-Fade | It helped a lot for the news page, which is now essentially publicly moderated. | 10:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Right, but are we calling it "Karma for applications"? | 10:12 |
| X-Fade | Yeah, I don't see any other clear options? | 10:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | No, just making sure. ;) | 10:13 |
| * Stskeeps tries to pitch the Touch Book to people at work. | 10:17 | |
| GeneralAntilles | Gadget whore. :P | 10:19 |
| Stskeeps | hehe | 10:21 |
| * hugo33 hums the Inspector Gadget theme | 10:22 | |
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| Jaffa | Morning, all | 11:00 |
| lbt | Morning | 11:00 |
| lbt | GAN800: so, I added Maemo-Upgrade-Description: Zoom now changes the text size; Improved(?) look; Finger scrolling feel improved a lot | 11:01 |
| lbt | to my control file but I don't see it in App Mgr | 11:01 |
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| Jaffa | lbt: If it's in the control file, you need to prefix it with XB-; that tells dpkg-buildpackage to include it in the binary control file | 11:02 |
| lbt | d'oh | 11:02 |
| lbt | well, it was late :) | 11:02 |
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| lbt | but even the line above is 'XB-'Maemo-Display-Name: Shopper | 11:03 |
| lbt | <sigh> | 11:03 |
| lbt | roll on extras-experimental | 11:03 |
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| Jaffa | :) | 11:09 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Anybody have any objections to https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3576#c3 ? | 11:18 |
| sampo | hey | 11:22 |
| X-Fade | I think that we need a shorter way to write "content on this site is | 11:22 |
| X-Fade | licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 License" | 11:22 |
| sampo | is there a fix for that slow responsiveness in alpha sdk emulator? | 11:22 |
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| sampo | on my laptop this is very slow, but on my desktop pc it runs fine | 11:22 |
| * Myrtti has... | 11:23 | |
| Myrtti | All content created by the author <a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"><img src="http://i.creativecommons.org/l/by-sa/3.0/80x15.png" alt="Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike" /></a>, rest © respective copyright holders | 11:23 |
| Myrtti | on her blog footer | 11:23 |
| aquatix | X-Fade: maybe use the logo? | 11:23 |
| Myrtti | though I think there was something else that was needed too | 11:23 |
| X-Fade | Myrtti: I'd like to put that in the new website's footer. So it needs to be small ;) | 11:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | aquatix, yeah, that's what I was thinking | 11:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | But accessibility suffers a bit. | 11:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | I guess the alt tag will suffice for that, though. | 11:24 |
| Myrtti | ah, yes. | 11:24 |
| Myrtti | <a rel="license" href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"><img alt="Creative Commons License" style="border-width:0" src="http://i.creativecommons.org/l/by-sa/3.0/88x31.png" /> | 11:24 |
| Myrtti | <a rel="license" is the relevant part | 11:24 |
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| aquatix | GeneralAntilles: yep, alt and title tags | 11:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | aquatix, too quick. :P | 11:24 |
| * GeneralAntilles was gonna say title. | 11:25 | |
| aquatix | :) | 11:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | http://i.creativecommons.org/l/by/3.0/80x15.png | 11:26 |
| Myrtti | ♥ | 11:26 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: "All content under <img alt="" title="" />, unless otherwise specified" | 11:26 |
| Myrtti | glad to be of assistance | 11:27 |
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| X-Fade | Footer changed on http://newstyle.maemo.org/ | 11:31 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Can we drop the sponsored by? | 11:32 |
| X-Fade | I think that part is fair? | 11:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | I recall Quim saying it would go. | 11:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | I actually don't mind it (having a pretty little Nokia logo down there is kind of nice, actually) but I dunno if Nokia actually wants it there. | 11:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | The big CC image doesn't look great inline. | 11:35 |
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| GeneralAntilles | It's too bad there's no (cc) in Unicode. | 11:36 |
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| aquatix | X-Fade: hm, the footer isn't correctly aligned vertically inside that bar | 11:39 |
| aquatix | the text i mean | 11:39 |
| Myrtti | I still chuckle at the Reference manual footer :-P | 11:39 |
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| Myrtti | it gives me infinite amount of joy :-D | 11:40 |
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| aquatix | Myrtti: which is that? | 11:40 |
| Myrtti | aquatix: http://maemo.org/maemo_release_documentation/maemo4.1.x/ :-P | 11:41 |
| * GeneralAntilles sighs at Engadget and SDXC | 11:41 | |
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| GeneralAntilles | What a phenomenal marketing win for an unnecessary bullshit standard "upgrade". | 11:41 |
| X-Fade | aquatix: No, I guess the image screws up the alignment. | 11:41 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, maybe something like this? http://www.innovationjournalism.org/blog/uploaded_images/creative_commons_bw-764395.gif | 11:42 |
| Myrtti | X-Fade: put a img padding-top:2px; ? | 11:42 |
| aquatix | X-Fade: vertical-align:middle; ? | 11:42 |
| aquatix | on the image? | 11:42 |
| Myrtti | ... or that | 11:42 |
| aquatix | Myrtti: you're talking about the `Powered by LaTeX2HTML' part of that footer? | 11:43 |
| X-Fade | I'll let Neithan fix that ;) | 11:43 |
| Myrtti | aquatix: :-P | 11:43 |
| aquatix | :) | 11:43 |
| Myrtti | *cough* | 11:43 |
| * aquatix <3 LaTeX | 11:43 | |
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| Myrtti | it's not altogether true, it should be s/LaTeX2HTML/LaTeX2HTML, large amounts of coffee and sexy bash-sed-awk hacking/ | 11:44 |
| * Myrtti loves LaTeX | 11:46 | |
| aquatix | :) | 11:46 |
| Jaffa | X-Fade: suggestion: if we have a "sponsored by nokia", make the image smaller and put that in the centre; then the CC logo image will look better on the right side, with "all content under\nunless otherwise specified" to the left of the image. | 11:47 |
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| * Myrtti huggles sed ♥ | 11:51 | |
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| radic__ | how can I use java-programs on my N800? | 12:05 |
| hahlo | is sun jre compiled for maemo? | 12:07 |
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| Jaffa | radic__: see Jalimo | 12:09 |
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| Jaffa | OpenJDK has been compiled, but there's no ARM Hotspot JIT, so typically cacaovm is used. | 12:09 |
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| Myrtti | I feel like a kid in a sandbox baking sand cakes | 12:18 |
| Myrtti | "patpat" | 12:18 |
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| aquatix | ghehehe | 12:19 |
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| Jaffa | inz: ping | 12:22 |
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| inz | Jaffa, pong | 12:24 |
| inz | Jaffa, you were in luck, that's probably the fastest ping time ever from me ;) | 12:24 |
| Jaffa | inz: Any chance of your mate doing x86_64 versions of the fremantle Scratchbox requirements? | 12:24 |
| * Jaffa is wondering the best way of upgrading his diablo setarched install into a fremantle one (alongside) | 12:25 | |
| inz | Jaffa, I'll ask | 12:25 |
| Jaffa | ta | 12:25 |
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| inz | Jaffa, seems to be away, I'll get back when I get a reply | 12:28 |
| * Myrtti pokes inz, runs away and yells "TAG!" | 12:29 | |
| inz | Myrtti, it didn't count, you missed me, I wasn't part of the game, I was safe! | 12:30 |
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| lardman | morning | 12:31 |
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| Myrtti | :-( | 12:31 |
| Myrtti | spoilsport | 12:31 |
| * lbt tags Myrtti | 12:32 | |
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| RST38x | Is wazd around? =) | 12:42 |
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| * GeneralAntilles stabs Photoshop repeatedly. | 12:47 | |
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| lardman | what's up GeneralAntilles? | 12:47 |
| GeneralAntilles | They seem to have removed the option to make cmd-h behave normally from CS4. | 12:47 |
| lardman | I was trying to get fake tilt-shift processing to work in the gimp, but it was such a pita that I wrote my own fn in MATLAB | 12:49 |
| * lardman doesn't have photoshop | 12:49 | |
| Jaffa | lardman: see, you can't escape DSP programming even when doing photo work :) | 12:52 |
| lardman | yeah, I didn't do it on the n8x0 though! | 12:53 |
| lardman | :) | 12:53 |
| lardman | though once I get Octave compiled again, I could do.... | 12:54 |
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| inz | lardman, why don't you do dsp-accelerated octave | 12:58 |
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| lardman | yeah, that was my plan when I bought my 770 | 12:59 |
| lardman | never got round to it, had to learn DSP programming first | 12:59 |
| lardman | and I foolishly bit of more than I could chew trying to port tremor | 13:02 |
| lardman | s/of/off | 13:02 |
| Jaffa | dneary: ping | 13:02 |
| Jaffa | dneary: no attachment on last -community message | 13:03 |
| dneary | wow! That was quick | 13:03 |
| dneary | Indeed, no attachment. | 13:03 |
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| dneary | Do you have it now? | 13:07 |
| dneary | I sent the attachment 2 secs ago | 13:07 |
| dneary | Don't say anything about visual design | 13:07 |
| * Jaffa wouldn't dare ;) | 13:07 | |
| Jaffa | Gah, gmail won't let me download it and is showing it inline. | 13:08 |
| dneary | Haha! | 13:08 |
| dneary | So is it working? | 13:08 |
| * Jaffa uses "show original" and c&p :) | 13:08 | |
| dneary | I am pretty sure all the Javascript I used is standard & works in IE too | 13:08 |
| dneary | Went a long way not to use GetElementByName | 13:08 |
| * Myrtti huggles her pink emacs | 13:09 | |
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| Jaffa | dneary: I've put it here for testing: http://www.flegg.org/~andrew/step2.html | 13:12 |
| dneary | Jaffa: OK | 13:13 |
| Jaffa | dneary: Is it supposed to have two sets of the candidates (as test data)? | 13:13 |
| Stskeeps | http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer-slowly.png | 13:13 |
| dneary | Why does it double member lists? | 13:13 |
| dneary | Ah | 13:13 |
| dneary | I wee | 13:13 |
| dneary | see | 13:13 |
| dneary | Let me edit & resend | 13:13 |
| Stskeeps | (we are slowly and firmly getting closer :P) | 13:13 |
| dneary | The problem was that I did a funky thing with it | 13:13 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, too slow! Work faster! | 13:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary, fantastic. | 13:16 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: You like? | 13:16 |
| * lcuk gives gan a code editor and makes him get down the mine | 13:16 | |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary, one of the reasons I didn't like the idea of STV is because I was picturing a reall godawful implementation of the voting software | 13:16 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: I know a thing or two about user interfaces ;) | 13:16 |
| GeneralAntilles | Every implementation of this method I've seen has been in really bad survey software. | 13:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Big grid of radio buttons | 13:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Can we get up/down arrows on the right side? | 13:17 |
| lcuk | why doint we ask diebold to give us a few of their layouts :D | 13:18 |
| dneary | Glad you like it - it took me a couple of days to get right | 13:18 |
| dneary | The up/down arrows are asking a bit much | 13:18 |
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| dneary | I would like the preferences to be at the right | 13:18 |
| dneary | away | 13:18 |
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| lcuk | Stskeeps, looks sweet, you even have a cancel button! | 13:21 |
| Stskeeps | we do? :P | 13:21 |
| Stskeeps | oh, right | 13:21 |
| Stskeeps | zenity, a heathen | 13:21 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 13:21 |
| lcuk | would like to do something aobut tickboxes and lists though if possible | 13:21 |
| lcuk | as an example that ticklist you have has 2 items but is using only about 20% of the list area | 13:22 |
| Jaffa | dneary: updated http://www.flegg.org/~andrew/step2.html - looking good | 13:22 |
| X-Fade | dneary: The double candidates list pointed out that layout breaks when > 6 candidates. Is that enough? | 13:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | Get rid of the hardcoded element height? | 13:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Float the two lists | 13:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | I guess you could calculate the element height by the number of candidates? | 13:24 |
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| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: height = number of candidates * 1.8em | 13:27 |
| Jaffa | or, better, dneary ---^ | 13:28 |
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| lbt | So shopper is now in Extras (or will be soon) - how do I get a page up on http://maemo.org/downloads/OS2008/ ?? | 13:32 |
| RST38x | lbt: you go to that address and click Add a new project | 13:32 |
| lbt | how twee :) | 13:33 |
| lbt | is that different to garage then? | 13:33 |
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| * GeneralAntilles just noticed he's been holding a dead tablet in his lap for the last 20 minutes. | 13:34 | |
| X-Fade | lbt: https://maemo.org/downloads/product/create/OS2008/application.html | 13:34 |
| RST38x | General: Were you singing it lullabies? | 13:34 |
| lbt | its not dead - its sleeping | 13:34 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38x, I was planning on plugging it in, but I got sidetracked by poking at dneary's voting software. | 13:34 |
| lbt | X-Fade: doesn't that page needs a "link to a garage project" kind of thing | 13:36 |
| X-Fade | lbt: Why? | 13:36 |
| Jaffa | lbt: You can set your garage project as the homepage, why else would it need one? | 13:36 |
| Jaffa | Garage, extras and download are all separate | 13:36 |
| lbt | 'cos I typed in all the same stuff to setup a garage project IIRC | 13:36 |
| lbt | Jaffa: bug or feature? | 13:36 |
| RST38x | General: Feed the poor thing some electricity =) | 13:37 |
| lbt | given I register in garage publish in extras and promote on downloads... | 13:37 |
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| RST38x | lbt: it does not get "promoted" to downloads | 13:37 |
| RST38x | lbt: You create a page in downloads and place there an .install file that points to extras. that is all | 13:37 |
| lbt | in the "marketed" sense RST38x | 13:37 |
| sampo | when is itt goingo to change to talk.maemo.org ? | 13:37 |
| lbt | promoted *on* downloads :) | 13:38 |
| RST38x | ah | 13:38 |
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| lbt | I just feel that they are a little too seperate - garage has no link to the release in extras for example... | 13:38 |
| lbt | I have to upload source again to my garage page | 13:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | sampo, should be within the next month or so. | 13:39 |
| sampo | GeneralAntilles: ok, thanx | 13:39 |
| lbt | seems like they could/should be coupled | 13:39 |
| inz | Jaffa, ping | 13:43 |
| inz | Jaffa, http://www.ipi.fi/~pablo/ | 13:43 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lbt, what 0.5.x release have there been? | 13:43 |
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| lbt | 0.5.1, 0.5.2, 0.5.3, 0.5.4, 0.5.5 | 13:46 |
| Jaffa | inz: cool stuff | 13:46 |
| lbt | I was busy last night | 13:46 |
| lbt | but not very accurate :) | 13:47 |
| lbt | 0.5.3 was the proper one. 0.5.4 fixed a crash bug and I noticed that I missed the XB- from Maemo-Upgrade-Description.... hence 0.5.5 :) | 13:48 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lbt, Shopper triaged. | 13:53 |
| dneary | X-Fade: Away for lunch... but I thought that setting a height on a div expanded with the contents | 13:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Feel free to mark VERIFIED. | 13:53 |
| dneary | Need CSS skillz to fix | 13:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | 150px is 150px | 13:54 |
| dneary | Jaffa: Yes, maybe height=n*1.8em if there's a way to do that nicely in the PHP | 13:54 |
| dneary | Open to suggestions - that's superficial | 13:54 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Height based on number of candidates would work, but I dunno how to implement it. | 13:55 |
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| lbt | can anyone suggest a linux website editor for a noob - bluefish is not WYSIWYG enough | 14:03 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lbt, surely not for you? :P | 14:06 |
| lbt | my wife :) | 14:06 |
| lbt | apparently emacs "isn't it" | 14:07 |
| Myrtti | hmm | 14:07 |
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| Myrtti | kompozer? | 14:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ha | 14:07 |
| lbt | Ta Myrtti - I also got quanta and nvu suggested on #linux FWIW ... | 14:10 |
| Myrtti | lbt: nvu == kompozer | 14:11 |
| Myrtti | nvu was dropped/renamed to kompozer | 14:11 |
| lbt | oh, I didn't realise... | 14:11 |
| Myrtti | before that it was the "netscape editor" ;-) | 14:11 |
| Myrtti | iirc quanta is basically a text editor as well | 14:12 |
| lbt | does it work on windows? We're doing this for a friend... | 14:12 |
| Myrtti | yes | 14:12 |
| Myrtti | kompozer, that is | 14:12 |
| lbt | mmm - that could be goof | 14:12 |
| lbt | s/f/d/ | 14:12 |
| infobot | lbt meant: mmm - that could be good | 14:12 |
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| Stskeeps | http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer-menubutton.png , http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer-appmenu.png | 14:15 |
| Stskeeps | (i am -crap- at artwork.) | 14:15 |
| X-Fade | Stskeeps: We can see that, but other than that. Cool stuff :) | 14:16 |
| RST38x | Sts: Need wazd right away | 14:16 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, i'm a coder, not a designer :P | 14:18 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: that website seems even slower today than usual. I can't get anything up, and am having to use work's VPN | 14:20 |
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| * Jaffa wonders why his DSL connection hates you ;-) | 14:20 | |
| crashanddie | who's Aniello del Sorbo here on IRC | 14:23 |
| Jaffa | crashanddie: anidel | 14:24 |
| crashanddie | hmm | 14:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hi, crashanddie. | 14:24 |
| crashanddie | hey GA | 14:25 |
| crashanddie | anidel needs to get himself a spellcheck | 14:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, did wazd ever give you a nice png of just the white logo? | 14:25 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, he did | 14:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, use that for the menu. | 14:25 |
| Stskeeps | true | 14:25 |
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| Stskeeps | i'll have to grab wazd anyway | 14:26 |
| RST38x | General: BTW, got TI83+ up and running | 14:26 |
| RST38x | Coming to a repo near you as soon as I catch wazd and ask him to do the skin | 14:26 |
| crashanddie | GeneralAntilles: what's new? | 14:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | crashanddie, not all that much. | 14:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ready for Spring Break. | 14:27 |
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| * lcuk thinks the channel has a strange smell | 14:27 | |
| lcuk | oh, hi crashanddie | 14:28 |
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| AndrewFBlack | Morning | 14:31 |
| crashanddie | GeneralAntilles: as always, you're being a slacky student :P | 14:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | crashanddie, and? :P | 14:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | crashanddie, I'm assuming the alpha didn't sneak past you? | 14:32 |
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| * AndrewFBlack has goten bored and resurrected his Web Based Pim project. | 14:44 | |
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| GeneralAntilles | Oh, SDXC. | 14:50 |
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| lardman | ha, take that shearography | 14:50 |
| * lardman has got his code to work | 14:50 | |
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| GeneralAntilles | It's amazing that people fall for this shit. | 14:52 |
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| RST38x | ANOTHER memory card format? | 14:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38x, well, it's SDHC with the artificial limitations lifted. | 14:55 |
| * RST38x ponders enqueuing memory card format designers for elimination, right after audio framework designers | 14:55 | |
| RST38x | General: Well, that sounds relatively harmless | 14:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | Except for exFAT | 14:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | Basically, they let the full 22-bits of memory space be addressed and switched to exFAT. | 14:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | Now millions of people are going to have to replace their artificially crippled consumer electronics | 14:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | and Linux is fucked. | 14:57 |
| RST38x | Wonderful | 14:58 |
| RST38x | My guess is they will have to implement a compatibility mode | 14:59 |
| RST38x | Use FAT32 or something | 14:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | The good news is that current Linux devices will have no issue using it as long as you switch to something other than exFAT | 14:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | Since they've addressed the full 22-bits (versus the spec-limited 16-bits) since the beginning. | 15:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | Some details in this thread: http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24180 | 15:00 |
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| lcuk | anyone know the resolution of the nintendo dsi | 15:07 |
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| * timeless looks for someone w/ experience using evil software | 15:14 | |
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| inz | timeless, define evil | 15:16 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, I'm fairly certain it's the same as the DS/DSlite | 15:23 |
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| lcuk | GeneralAntilles, ok, was just a ponderment, its got cameras and stuff now. | 15:43 |
| lcuk | amazing what they manage with 166mhz of arm :) | 15:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | The DSlite is less. | 15:44 |
| GeneralAntilles | But, really, what's amazing is what you can accomplish when you can actually optimize for a certain piece of hardware. | 15:45 |
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| GeneralAntilles | What's more impressive is what they did with the ~1.7MHz in the NES. ;) | 15:46 |
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| RST38x | General: NES is a special case | 16:06 |
| RST38x | in fact, anything with tiled graphics is a special case | 16:06 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Howdy, alterego. | 16:08 |
| alterego | Good afternoon :) | 16:08 |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: so your beagle happy now? | 16:08 |
| alterego | Have you seen that netbook/tablet thing with the OMAP3 in it? | 16:09 |
| Stskeeps | yeah | 16:09 |
| alterego | That looks neat. 10-15hours battery life :) | 16:09 |
| Stskeeps | want. | 16:09 |
| Stskeeps | at least. with mer on top .. :P | 16:09 |
| alterego | I knew I should have held off getting the Dell Mini ;) | 16:09 |
| alterego | But my Dell mini is still nice :) | 16:10 |
| RST38x | what netbook thing? | 16:10 |
| RST38x | url? | 16:10 |
| Stskeeps | RST38x: http://i.gizmodo.com/5162584/first-hands-on-touch-book-is-part+netbook-part+tablet | 16:11 |
| RST38x | thanks | 16:11 |
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| RST38x | huge and made of ugly iMacish transparent plastic (not blue though, which is a plus) | 16:12 |
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| Stskeeps | RST38x: on the other hand, it's a mobile beagleboard | 16:12 |
| Stskeeps | RST38x: and the actual model is not transparent | 16:13 |
| alterego | I wouldn't say it's "huge". | 16:13 |
| alterego | It's got a netbook size screen and plenty of extendibility. | 16:14 |
| Jaffa | RST38x: that's the prototype | 16:14 |
| Stskeeps | RST38x: https://www.alwaysinnovating.com/touchbook/ | 16:14 |
| RST38x | it is cool indeed | 16:14 |
| Stskeeps | also, -internal usb ports- :P | 16:14 |
| RST38x | yea, nice touch | 16:15 |
| RST38x | that is how every netbook has to be made | 16:15 |
| Stskeeps | did you look at the price? | 16:15 |
| Stskeeps | 400$ for the keyboard (with one of the batteries) and tablet together (with another battery) | 16:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | alterego, only an OMAP3530, unfortunately, though. | 16:16 |
| Jaffa | Believe it when they're shipping, of course. | 16:17 |
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| GeneralAntilles | alterego, it'd be more feasible as a Mini 9 replacement if it were an OMAP3440 (or OMPA3540 if they offered one) | 16:17 |
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| Stskeeps | Jaffa: of course.. though i guess it counts when there's actual friggen schematics on their page and koen of angstrom actually talks to the guy :P | 16:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, well, it still needs a real SD card. | 16:17 |
| Stskeeps | and the guy has made actual devices before (zonbu, etc) | 16:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | and I still need to actually flash some working pieces onto the NAND. | 16:17 |
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| alterego | GeneralAntilles: well, that depends what you use the netbook for ;) I'd be happy if I can get a full days Ruby coding on one battery charge :) | 16:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | alterego, yeah, that's true. | 16:20 |
| papagaj | hi, I am trying to run the second debug example (from http://maemo.org/maemo_release_documentation/maemo4.1.x/node15.html) on the device, however I always get the error | 16:20 |
| papagaj | line 1: syntax error: word unexpected (expecting ")") | 16:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'd like to see what a real manufacturer is likely to churn out in the form of an ARM-based netbook, though. | 16:21 |
| papagaj | it is like maemo is interpreting it as a shell script? | 16:21 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: Foleo? ;-) | 16:21 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, well, something that actually makes it to the market, has a real OS and is Cortex A8-based or better. ;) | 16:22 |
| Jaffa | :) | 16:23 |
| alterego | Cortex A9! :) | 16:23 |
| RST38x | Does "real OS" means one from Microsoft? =) | 16:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38x, perhaps by your definition. | 16:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | But not by mine. | 16:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Real OS means something generic than I can actually install real applications on. | 16:24 |
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| Stskeeps | ubuntu? | 16:24 |
| Stskeeps | :P | 16:24 |
| alterego | ubuntu! | 16:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Not a proprietary Palm wonderland. | 16:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yes, something like Ubuntu. | 16:24 |
| Stskeeps | touch book seems to do that :P | 16:24 |
| RST38x | "real applications" = MS Office? =) | 16:24 |
| * RST38x cackles | 16:24 | |
| Stskeeps | GeneralAntilles: Maemo doesn't qualify as real applications? ;) | 16:24 |
| alterego | I think we all know the answer to that :P | 16:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, I'd go for that, too. | 16:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | Stskeeps, but if the manufacturer isn't Nokia, it's not likely to be Maemo. | 16:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | So, let's just say "Linux". | 16:25 |
| RST38x | Well, I would say Ubuntu Linux | 16:26 |
| RST38x | (RedHat and Debian probably also satisfy, but Ubuntu is better) | 16:26 |
| alterego | Plus ARM and ubuntu are working together .. | 16:26 |
| jumpula | debian. always debian. | 16:27 |
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| alterego | Ubuntu is debian | 16:27 |
| * RST38x notices that if general wants a Linux tablet, there is plenty of MIDs around | 16:27 | |
| alterego | Just more polished for desktop yes. | 16:27 |
| jumpula | it's debian based | 16:27 |
| RST38x | Atom based, indeed, but they will run Linux just fine | 16:27 |
| jumpula | but definetly not debian | 16:27 |
| Jaffa | RST38x: not many cheap or with decent battery life | 16:27 |
| alterego | Ubuntu == Debian + Desktopness | 16:28 |
| Jaffa | (unless I missed one) | 16:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38x, I didn't say tablet. | 16:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38x, I said netbook. | 16:28 |
| RST38x | Jaffa: Well, a recent trip to the local electrnics market has shown at least 3-4 bearable ones | 16:28 |
| GeneralAntilles | I also said ARM-based. | 16:28 |
| jumpula | ubuntu = something like debian, but more unstable | 16:28 |
| RST38x | General: even easier to find | 16:28 |
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| GeneralAntilles | RST38x, so, please, go re-read the scrollback before you start proposing solutions. ;) | 16:28 |
| RST38x | General: No, I understood your initial request, but if you just need a netbook with Linux, won't an Atom one be sufficient? | 16:29 |
| RST38x | General: Given that the software is portable between them | 16:29 |
| GeneralAntilles | RST38x, I'm getting one of those. | 16:29 |
| RST38x | ah | 16:29 |
| RST38x | They do make it to 5-6 hours, some of them | 16:30 |
| GeneralAntilles | But what I SAID was that I'd be interested to see what a real manufacturer would come up with in the way of an ARM-based netbook running Linux. | 16:30 |
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| GeneralAntilles | So, while Atom-based tablets and netbooks are really just wonderful suggestions, they really don't apply here. :) | 16:30 |
| RST38x | Yea | 16:31 |
| * RST38x does suspect that the more important point isn't how the device will look (it will look the same as atom one) but how energy efficient it is | 16:32 | |
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| RST38x | And that depends on the OS supplier rather than manufacturer | 16:32 |
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| RST38x | On the other hand you get 3-4 times less hardware (physically), so you get more options on how it will look | 16:33 |
| roope | well, it's relevant if you want to keep it running and online all the time. | 16:33 |
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| roope | otherwise current laptops already work well. | 16:33 |
| Jaffa | Big, heavy, slow to go in & out of standby. | 16:34 |
| ShadowJK | Aren't there a few doing arm based netbooks? (sorry if this is redundant, didn't read back yet) | 16:34 |
| roope | a macbook for instance. | 16:34 |
| Jaffa | roope: ok, a macbook might be nicer. Unfortunately, can't convince work to buy me one | 16:34 |
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| Jaffa | So I've got another Dell (yesterday, nice screen) | 16:34 |
| roope | mac resistance is a bit funny, we also have it. | 16:35 |
| roope | especially once you can just install windows or linux on it. | 16:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | ShadowJK, no, not really. | 16:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | ShadowJK, it kinda depends on your definition of netbook, and how far you want to go back. | 16:36 |
| * Jaffa wouldn't mind OS X (all I'm running most of the time is Firefox, Eclipse, MySQL and... Outlook :-/) | 16:36 | |
| GeneralAntilles | ShadowJK, but the only Cortex A8-based thing is the Touch Book. | 16:36 |
| roope | OS X is pretty nice. | 16:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | roope, laptops are big and nasty. | 16:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | roope, Macbooks aren't any better. | 16:36 |
| suihkulokki | A arm-based netbook could easily weight half of asus eeepc, be half thinner and still have same screen/keyboard size and batteries that last many times longer than eee | 16:36 |
| RST38x | Jaffa: My Toshiba is not heavy and not big | 16:37 |
| RST38x | Jaffa: And it goes off standby in ~30 seconds | 16:37 |
| ShadowJK | It's funny that the same thing is happening to atom that happened to centrino | 16:37 |
| suihkulokki | and (also not be unbearably hot when kept on lap) | 16:37 |
| GeneralAntilles | suihkulokki, personally, I'd rather it be the same size and filled with batteries. :D | 16:37 |
| RST38x | Shadow: ? | 16:37 |
| ShadowJK | When centrino was new, battery life was superb, then it degraded to the 2-3 hours again | 16:37 |
| Jaffa | RST38x: 30 seconds falls into *my* definition of "slow" | 16:37 |
| roope | 3-4 hours for a macbook is rather ok for me. | 16:37 |
| ShadowJK | And now we're seeing atom laptops with 2-3 hour battery life :P | 16:37 |
| roope | it sleeps and wakes up pretty much instant. | 16:37 |
| RST38x | Jaffa: Well, I switch it rarely enough to not consider it a problem | 16:38 |
| RST38x | Jaffa: And it ran for 8 hours off its batteries when they were new | 16:38 |
| ShadowJK | So that touchbook thing seems awesome if they've stuffed the keyboard part full of batteries | 16:38 |
| GeneralAntilles | roope, I dunno how people put up with Windows' godawful hibernation behaviors. | 16:38 |
| RST38x | ah | 16:38 |
| roope | ga: yes, it's bad. | 16:39 |
| ShadowJK | and of course olpc/xo suspends/resumes so fast they do it all the time.. | 16:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | roope, but the formfactor I'm looking for is ~9" screen. | 16:39 |
| * Jaffa can't pre-order a touch book anyway | 16:39 | |
| roope | yeah, the no mans land. | 16:39 |
| * ShadowJK can't pre-order either :-( | 16:39 | |
| GeneralAntilles | The OMAP3640 is just passing the performance threshold to really be a laptop replacement. | 16:40 |
| RST38x | Jaffa,Shadow: Rejoice yourself remembering Pandora | 16:40 |
| Jaffa | RST38x: well, a "pre-order notification send no money now" | 16:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | Slap an OMAP3640 in a Dell Mini 9 or HP Mini 1000 and you're golden. | 16:40 |
| RST38x | ah, that is fair at least | 16:40 |
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| * Jaffa ain't sendin' nobody no money ;) | 16:41 | |
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| * ShadowJK never quite found out what pandora is/was about | 16:41 | |
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| Jaffa | ShadowJK: Overly optimistic/naive people thinking that all it takes is a good idea to produce small-runs of a customised "perfect" gaming device at a low price. | 16:41 |
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| ShadowJK | The concept of having a /group/ of people making something, anything, "perfect" scares me | 16:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | Actually, I wonder where the Pandora would be if TI hadn't stepped in to help them. | 16:43 |
| Jaffa | Nowhere. | 16:43 |
| Jaffa | Or maybe some Beagleboard-based/inspired prototypes coming out now | 16:44 |
| lbt | can I rsync files to garage for my website? | 16:44 |
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| Jaffa | lbt: commit them to a 'www' directory | 16:45 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lbt, dunno about rsync, but, um svn? | 16:46 |
| ShadowJK | "while money had already been raised to purchase the parts for the initial production run, the manufacturing costs had not been covered by their initial investment" | 16:46 |
| ShadowJK | what? they forgot? | 16:46 |
| lbt | ah, OK - ta | 16:46 |
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| RST38x | Shadow: these guys never did any production | 16:51 |
| RST38x | Shadow: so, they ended up with another Optimus Maximus :) | 16:51 |
| lbt | what happened to git.maemo.org | 16:53 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lbt, it's in "beta". | 16:56 |
| Myrtti | oohh... http://huopio.fi/simo/blog/2009/03/rfid-calling-cards-for-osx-and-skype.html | 16:57 |
| lbt | I'm on the garage project page :) The wiki suggested that phases 1+2 are done | 16:57 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lbt, I'm not really sure what the status is. | 16:58 |
| GeneralAntilles | You'd have to talk to tekojo or ferenc. | 16:58 |
| lbt | sigh - the UI for garage is really naff | 16:58 |
| RST38x | Myrtti: ...and to make it turn lights on, you would have to bring a light switch and show it to the computer | 16:58 |
| aquatix | Myrtti: heh, neat | 16:58 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lbt, yeah, we all hate gforge. | 16:59 |
| lbt | :D | 17:00 |
| Myrtti | RST38x: of course the kid can turn the lights on herself, doh. | 17:00 |
| lbt | I# | 17:00 |
| lbt | I'm just trying to respond to the "volunteers wanted" | 17:00 |
| Myrtti | RST38x: or with some home automation thing that has a web gui | 17:00 |
| RST38x | Myrtti: Just considering possibilities =) | 17:00 |
| Myrtti | but that is so wicked. | 17:00 |
| aquatix | Myrtti: neat way of creating an intuitive interface to voip software | 17:01 |
| RST38x | You are all forgetting that it requires carrying a stack of cards | 17:01 |
| * aquatix sees other possibilities too | 17:01 | |
| aquatix | RST38x: nah, just having them with your pc | 17:01 |
| RST38x | Won't saying "call mama" aloud do a better trick? | 17:01 |
| lbt | There is a section headed "Read More/Comment" ... and the only way to make a comment is to click "Start a new Thread" - what is wrong with "Leave comment" | 17:01 |
| aquatix | RST38x: maybe | 17:02 |
| lbt | bah! | 17:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | lbt, I'm in favor of leaving gforge unconscious in an abandoned house and setting it on fire, but what can you do? | 17:03 |
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| lbt | find a virtual nightstick? | 17:03 |
| Myrtti | RST38x: consider speech impediments, or dementia or... | 17:03 |
| Myrtti | RST38x: that has usecases for the elderly as well | 17:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | and give it to gforge to use against us? | 17:04 |
| GeneralAntilles | Sure. | 17:04 |
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| lbt | so GeneralAntilles - is the newer shopper looking/feeling better? | 17:05 |
| GeneralAntilles | lbt, checked the packaging bugs, but haven't actually gotten around to opening it. | 17:06 |
| lbt | heh | 17:06 |
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| GeneralAntilles | That's special, my 360 came back in Spanish. | 17:15 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lbt, looking at the alpha screenshots, I actually think Fremantle will improve the UI a lot by default. | 17:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | Anyway, I don't love the colors. | 17:20 |
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| sampo | is it possible to get sound out from maemo emulator? | 17:20 |
| lbt | my wife does :) | 17:21 |
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| lbt | I started using the Qt css support | 17:21 |
| lbt | but the tablet just isn't up to it under 4.4 | 17:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | How's 4.5? | 17:21 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Maybe try a light-gray for the category background? | 17:21 |
| lbt | released but I've not got it yet | 17:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | and, please, leave the text color normal. :P | 17:22 |
| lbt | I'd like it to be configurable - the first thing to do was get the damn colours to change!! | 17:22 |
| lbt | mainly I was interested in the size | 17:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | Is there a size difference from 0.5.4? | 17:23 |
| lbt | zoom works | 17:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ah, I see. | 17:24 |
| lbt | (Although there are some glitches in Qt I think) | 17:24 |
| lbt | and I think the finger scrolling is much improved | 17:25 |
| lbt | something was sending out mouseMoveEvents that weren't quite spot on | 17:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | s/More>>>/Categories.../ | 17:28 |
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| lardman|gone | cu chaps | 17:29 |
| lbt | I thought that but it's really about 'add/re-order categories' | 17:30 |
| lbt | and I don't like the word Category either | 17:30 |
| lbt | maybe Group? | 17:31 |
| lbt | Aisle is too specific for some users | 17:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | Something, just drop the >>> :P | 17:32 |
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| lbt | I think "New" would work | 17:33 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lardman|gone. . . . | 17:38 |
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| dneary | Hi | 17:46 |
| dneary | Didn't see lardman|gone send his self-nomination either yet | 17:47 |
| dneary | Has it slipped his mind? | 17:47 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Dunno, but he may "slip" down a flight of stairs if he doesn't. :P | 17:47 |
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| dneary | And how about Reggie? Seems appropriate that the ITT guy be on there during the maemo talk move | 17:48 |
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| Guysoft422 | hey, installed debian chroot, is there a way to get more install space? | 17:50 |
| dneary | I was trying to think of prominent Nokia people who would be great | 17:50 |
| dneary | mvo comes to mind, Quim of course, but I suspect he wants to maintain a little distance from the council | 17:50 |
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| dneary | I kind of feel like I'm working for the council, so I don't want to be my boss any more than I am now | 17:51 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, it'd be nice to get a Nokian involved. | 17:51 |
| Jaffa | I surprised that, to date, we've had *fewer* declarations than the first one. | 17:51 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Somebody needs to break the ice. | 17:51 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, isn't it 1:1 with anidel's nomination? | 17:51 |
| dneary | Jaffa: Thanks for forwarding on | 17:52 |
| Jaffa | I thought we had 7 last time? | 17:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | Don't we have 7 now? | 17:52 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: 6 | 17:52 |
| * GeneralAntilles isn't very good at math. ;) | 17:52 | |
| dneary | I think | 17:52 |
| Jaffa | Definitely 6 | 17:52 |
| dneary | But 4 of those came in in the last 48 hours, IIRC | 17:52 |
| dneary | (I mean, 4 of last year's 7) | 17:52 |
| Jaffa | Ah | 17:52 |
| Jaffa | True, eduardo was a stalking horse candidate ;-) | 17:53 |
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| GeneralAntilles | I think I'll poke sjgadsby. | 17:53 |
| Jaffa | Aye | 17:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'm quite certain he'll plead lack of time, though. | 17:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | That's really the biggest problem. | 17:53 |
| GeneralAntilles | Everybody's got no time. | 17:53 |
| Jaffa | For someone like sjgadsby not much more's required than what he's already doing though | 17:54 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, true. | 17:54 |
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| RST38x | Got more candidates? | 17:54 |
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| GeneralAntilles | http://wiki.maemo.org/Task:Community_Council/Candidate_declarations_for_March_2009 | 17:55 |
| Jaffa | RST38x: All declared candidates at ... oh, err, ----^ | 17:55 |
| RST38x | aha | 17:55 |
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| * GeneralAntilles considers coercing timeless into running. :D | 17:56 | |
| lcuk | question re maemo itself: since maemo is becoming an autonomous entity where is its hq gonna be | 17:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, "Maemo" is a Nokia software platform. | 17:56 |
| GeneralAntilles | ___maemo.org___ is the autonomous entity. | 17:56 |
| Stskeeps | i vote for maemo.org HQ inside GeneralAntilles's G4. | 17:57 |
| RST38x | lcuk: Why, of course in Rlyeh! | 17:57 |
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| lcuk | wheres rlyeh | 17:57 |
| lcuk | Stskeeps, i almost misread that as inside ga's ass | 17:57 |
| dneary | Well, the council is what you make of it | 17:57 |
| GeneralAntilles | timeless's campaign slogan can be "-, timeless is not nice" | 17:57 |
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| dneary | The time requirements are really dependent on what the council wants to do itself, spread across the community, or leave to maemo.org staff | 17:58 |
| RST38x | lcuk: Where the Wise Tentacled One sleeps | 17:58 |
| inz | timeless – more evil than MS word | 17:58 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: Maemo is everything, actually | 17:58 |
| * RST38x won't vote for timeless, sorry | 17:58 | |
| *** RST38x is now known as RST38h | 17:58 | |
| dneary | Maemo Software is Nokia | 17:58 |
| dneary | Maemo platform is the software | 17:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | Maemo is a Nokia trademark. | 17:59 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: See the Maemo branding page | 17:59 |
| johnx_ | wow. just in time for this discussion again. It's like groundhog's day... | 17:59 |
| GeneralAntilles | So lcuk's usage is clearly inaccurate. | 17:59 |
| dneary | Maemo - Open source software platform for mobile devices. Developed by Nokia in collaboration with the Maemo community and some of the best open source upstream projects. | 17:59 |
| zeenix | "Maemo Rocks" is my trademark :) | 17:59 |
| * RST38h suggests putting this discussion back to sleep | 17:59 | |
| dneary | johnx_: It seems like it's always me vs GA & Jaffa | 18:00 |
| RST38h | It is becoming more annoying than NIT vs iPhone one | 18:00 |
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| Stskeeps | johnx_: i have screenshots if you didnt see on jaiku yet | 18:00 |
| johnx_ | there really shouldn't need to be this much discussion to figure out WTF it means | 18:00 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hey, if people would stop abusing it so horribly, we wouldn't have to discuss it. | 18:00 |
| Stskeeps | johnx for council! | 18:00 |
| johnx_ | Stskeeps, nope, didn't see yet. just sat down | 18:00 |
| dneary | Anyway - I don't like having this discussion | 18:00 |
| johnx_ | nah, too drunk to run for council right now | 18:01 |
| Stskeeps | johnx_: http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer-menubutton.png , http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer-appmenu.png | 18:01 |
| lcuk | so really candidature is for the maemo.org community council | 18:01 |
| dneary | busy with accounts | 18:01 |
| johnx_ | too drunk to run anywhere... | 18:01 |
| RST38h | General: People do not really care abut such details. As long as it is clear what entity they mean, it isn;t worth a flame | 18:01 |
| dneary | lcuk: No - it's the Council for the Maemo Community | 18:01 |
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| RST38h | If it is unclear - ask them to clarify which will give them a much better lesson than flaming them | 18:01 |
| johnx_ | Stskeeps, looking nice | 18:01 |
| dneary | or, perhaps, the Community Council for Maemo | 18:01 |
| dneary | In any case, it's clearly Maemo Community Council | 18:01 |
| johnx_ | if you didn't see I finally have a working x server package for the zaurus running ubuntu | 18:01 |
| Stskeeps | johnx_: yeah, but really neeed to get wazd to do some artwork :P | 18:01 |
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| Stskeeps | johnx_: woo :) | 18:01 |
| Stskeeps | johnx_: and this theme should be better on 640x480 too | 18:01 |
| johnx_ | man, that was waaaay too much work O_o; | 18:02 |
| lcuk | so the Maemo council governs maemo or it governs maemo.org or it governs none or both | 18:02 |
| RST38h | Shit, looks like wazd is already off for the long weekend | 18:02 |
| Stskeeps | damnit | 18:02 |
| dneary | lcuk: You're shit-stirring there, aren't you? :) | 18:02 |
| * lcuk is more confuddled than ever | 18:02 | |
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| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, the Community Council governs the Maemo Community and maemo.org. | 18:02 |
| * RST38h feeds lcuk a huge orange | 18:02 | |
| dneary | lcuk: The Maemo Community Council represents the Maemo Community | 18:02 |
| johnx_ | lcuk, it governs none or both :) | 18:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | It DOES NOT govern Maemo. | 18:02 |
| lcuk | no dneary, i hear different people talk about different facets of maemo every day and it does my nut in, clarity of what a person is standing for is important | 18:02 |
| dneary | lcuk: I agree with you, right now the boundaries & branding are unclear | 18:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | _Maemo_ is governed by Nokia. | 18:03 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: As dneary says - the Council governs nothing, but has made decisions (like debmaster) which Nokia - as sponsor - have abided by. | 18:03 |
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| Stskeeps | when mer matures sufficiently i hope council would govern mer :P | 18:03 |
| dneary | And made unclearer by certain individuals (ahem GA ahem) insisting with absolute certainty certain positions | 18:03 |
| Stskeeps | in one way or the other | 18:03 |
| dneary | which are anything but obvious | 18:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | Most of the confusion crops up from people being unable to separate the old branding from the new branding. | 18:03 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: Not really | 18:04 |
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| dneary | Much of the confusion crops up from people being entrenched in conflicting positions | 18:04 |
| dneary | For example, I think that Nokia is a prominent party in Maemo, not our governor and overlord | 18:05 |
| dneary | And I think Quim would agree with me there | 18:05 |
| dneary | But you clearly disagree | 18:05 |
| dneary | Wich causes confusion :) | 18:05 |
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| dneary | Of course, someone needs to own the trademark, and Nokia does | 18:05 |
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| dneary | And I'm fine with that | 18:05 |
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| dneary | Maemo is, for me, the community project, lock stock & barrel, including both Nokia and the community | 18:06 |
| dneary | Anyway - I really have to go. | 18:06 |
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| dneary | As much as this is fun :) | 18:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | See, it's not a "community" project. | 18:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's a Nokia software platform. | 18:07 |
| Jaffa | dneary: I suspect such a position *could* be partially motivated by political positioning on how Maemo has been developed (wanting to appear open, on top of GNOME, Gtk+, GStreamer, Mozilla, Linux) etc. "Maemo" as anything vaguely definable in a software way is entirely owned and governed and run by Nokia. | 18:07 |
| GeneralAntilles | If it were a community project, we'd be able to use the Maemo trademark for community applications and services. | 18:08 |
| * Jaffa would *love* to see Maemo developed as an open system; and bits of it are. But, realistically, Maemo - as a software product - is Nokia owned, and Nokia run. The Maemo community, etc. are of course adifferent matter. | 18:08 | |
| GeneralAntilles | But take, for example, maemoapps.org | 18:08 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: Well, even community projects get into trademark things, like Mozilla. | 18:08 |
| lbt | what do people use for screenshots? | 18:10 |
| lbt | http://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/screen-grabber/ is chinook | 18:11 |
| GeneralAntilles | x11vnc | 18:11 |
| vasily_pupkin | what do people use for wpa_supplicant? | 18:11 |
| Jaffa | lbt: mh-shot-tool | 18:11 |
| dneary | Jaffa: And GNOME | 18:12 |
| dneary | Jaffa: Lots of community projects spend a lot of energy figuring out what is acceptable & unacceptable usage of their marks | 18:12 |
| lbt | Jaffa: that helps | 18:13 |
| dneary | And Peter, from the little I talked to him, was acting in good faith, to ensure that the Maemo mark was as unconfusing as possible | 18:13 |
| dneary | So if there's stuff you feel you should be able to do that you feel you can't ask why | 18:13 |
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| dneary | Maybe there's a good reason the guidelines are the way they are | 18:13 |
| dneary | It would be better than setting the whole debate up framed in "us vs them" | 18:14 |
| * Jaffa has no qualm with the trademark guidelines or the branding. | 18:14 | |
| Jaffa | I think they're perfectly clear and straightforward :) | 18:14 |
| dneary | (which is what it comes across as every time this comes up) | 18:14 |
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| GeneralAntilles | dneary, it's not us vs them. | 18:14 |
| * Jaffa recognises Nokia's right to own the Maemo trademark. I don't care about that (apart from helping other people understand it as well) | 18:15 | |
| dneary | It always ends up sounding to me like "Maemo is controlled by Nokia, and the Maemo Community is us poor hackers." | 18:15 |
| lbt | apt-get install screenshot-tool | 18:15 |
| Jaffa | lbt: It's inz's tool: http://inz.fi/blog/2007/10/25/mh-shot-tool-update/ | 18:15 |
| dneary | Honestly, I believe that Nokia wans co-control of Maemo between Nokia and the non-Nokia part of the community | 18:16 |
| dneary | They're just not sure how to do that, who to talk to, etc. | 18:16 |
| dneary | That's what the Council helps with | 18:16 |
| Jaffa | dneary: That's fine, but we're not there yet. So, it's still sensible to talk about Maemo being owned, controlled and run by Nokia <shrug/> | 18:16 |
| * GeneralAntilles wonders what percentage of flame-threads on -users Mark has participated in (and precipitated). | 18:17 | |
| lcuk | invite him to participate in the council | 18:18 |
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| lcuk | he likes to use his voice | 18:18 |
| lcuk | he might be involved in many discussions but what you cant be sure of is how many times hes on the right side of them according to the other maemo users | 18:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, scarily enough he has more than enough karma. | 18:19 |
| lcuk | why is that scary? | 18:19 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, because he's a troll. | 18:19 |
| lcuk | one persons troll is anothers advisor | 18:20 |
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| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, look at the tone of his posts and get back to me. ;) | 18:20 |
| dneary | Jaffa: I disagree | 18:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hooray, -community. | 18:20 |
| dneary | I think language like that is damaging | 18:20 |
| * GeneralAntilles is up over 2000. | 18:20 | |
| johnx_ | Nokia is the one picking the direction of the Maemo platform, not that I actually find that a terribly bad thing at this point | 18:21 |
| Jaffa | Damn. Long way to go to catch you (and move up one place) | 18:21 |
| * dneary over 1000 | 18:21 | |
| lbt | how do I update https://maemo.org/downloads/product/OS2008/shopper/ | 18:22 |
| dneary | 774 discussion points | 18:22 |
| dneary | Mailing list points should be less valuable | 18:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hum, brought me within shooting distance of fanoush, too. | 18:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12, think up another startup screen! | 18:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12, hell, let's just push benson's! :D | 18:22 |
| dneary | lbt: If you're logged in and have permission to do so, you should be able to modify some stuff in the product page directly (Page->Modify) | 18:22 |
| dneary | If you want to push a new release, garage | 18:23 |
| qwerty12 | GeneralAntilles, lol! I'll leave you to claim the karma from that :P | 18:23 |
| lbt | dneary: ah that weird floating icon bar.... | 18:23 |
| lbt | I'd tuned it out totally :) | 18:23 |
| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12, that's where Nokia users their supr sicrit backdoor to quietly delete my account. ;) | 18:24 |
| lbt | thanks | 18:24 |
| Jaffa | johnx_: agreed, I've no problem with Nokia leading Maemo and, as dneary says, it /seems/ Nokia want to try and co-own it with the community. I think that'll actually be harder for the Maemo platform than for a particular component of it (say Hildon App Mgr) | 18:24 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: You don't think it's weird that I have 49 karma from mediawiki and 774 from email to lists? | 18:24 |
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| qwerty12 | GeneralAntilles, hehe | 18:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | dneary, the karma calculations all need to be rethought as a whole. | 18:25 |
| thopiekar | lbt: what do you mean with updating shopper? isn't it available on diablo? | 18:25 |
| GeneralAntilles | Currently we're mixing numbers from 2 years ago with numbers from 6 months ago. | 18:25 |
| dneary | GeneralAntilles: Degradable karma's hard to do | 18:25 |
| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: I'd still like a half-life system, but that'd require a massive rewrite it seems. | 18:25 |
| johnx_ | Jaffa, yeah, there are some somewhat conflicting short-term goals, which is why I'm more or less happy that Nokia is taking the long view even though it sometimes doesn't earn them friends... | 18:25 |
| lbt | thopiekar: I'm adding a screenshot | 18:25 |
| dneary | Jaffa: Not a massive rewrite | 18:25 |
| Jaffa | dneary: It's not hard to do intrinsically; it's just hard to do with our current implementation. | 18:25 |
| thopiekar | aah | 18:26 |
| lbt | 0.5.5 is in extras now :) | 18:26 |
| dneary | It's just that much of the stuff we measure doesn't really have datestamps | 18:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | Some things are scaling linearly (discussion points, bugzilla) while others aren't (itT, wiki) | 18:26 |
| Jaffa | dneary: see, that's my point - you're thinking around it with the wrong architecture. | 18:26 |
| dneary | We're already bridging 4 or 5 different application databases (midgard, bugzilla, itt, mediawiki, mailman, ...) | 18:26 |
| dneary | Jaffa: Degrading karma implies timestamped stuff | 18:27 |
| Jaffa | dneary: Don't try and work out what timestamp things are, just work out the difference between today's karma and the karma already in the database. Multiply existing value by degradation factor, then add on new one. | 18:27 |
| Jaffa | s/new one/new bit | 18:27 |
| dneary | Jaffa: Let's do that mentally for a couple of days... | 18:28 |
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| dneary | Jaffa: Today: 1020. Yesterday: 1000 | 18:28 |
| dneary | 1000*0.99 = 990 + 20 -> new karma 1010 | 18:28 |
| Jaffa | OK, there's also an assumption you don't double count things. | 18:29 |
| dneary | Now, next day, we measure all the karma stuff, and get 1030 | 18:29 |
| dneary | Do we have 10 new karma or 20? | 18:29 |
| Jaffa | Implement hashing of resources so things don't get double counted, and no delta necessary then. | 18:29 |
| dneary | I can see how it would be possible, with a baseline | 18:30 |
| dneary | Here goes (thinking out loud): | 18:30 |
| dneary | Store date + delta karma | 18:30 |
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| dneary | Baseline: 1000 today | 18:31 |
| Jaffa | Store two values in db: calculated karma unmodified for time, actual karma. Calculate delta on "previously calculated karma", degrade "actual karma", add delta. Update "previously calculated karma" | 18:31 |
| dneary | Measure karma tomorrow (with no degratation) | 18:31 |
| dneary | delta = 15 | 18:31 |
| GeneralAntilles | I think we should just nominate somebody to arbitrarily dock a different people a couple dozen karma or so every few days. :P | 18:31 |
| dneary | date = 2009-03-07 | 18:31 |
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| dneary | Over time, we have a baseline + extra karma per day for N days | 18:32 |
| Jaffa | dneary: that should work too | 18:32 |
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| Jaffa | Having a karma chart for a user would be useful. I've wanted to chart mine, but haven't been arsed. | 18:32 |
| Jaffa | (also to check that karma's being applied correctly when I release something new or whatever) | 18:32 |
| dneary | To calculate displayed karma, or adjusted karma, or whatever you want to call it, you value karma from N days ago at K*0.999^N | 18:33 |
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| dneary | But that needs some hacking in the database & a bunch of places in midgard | 18:33 |
| Jaffa | dneary: hell, don't even store the deltas - just store the absolute values and, as you say, calculate displayed/adjusted karma either in batch or on-demand. | 18:33 |
| dneary | or 0.99^N or whatever | 18:33 |
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| dneary | If you're storing karma with date, why not "just" store the deltas? | 18:34 |
| Stskeeps | johnx_: http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer-closer.png | 18:35 |
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| johnx_ | ah, quite nice! did the arm build go through or are you holding off? | 18:35 |
| Stskeeps | yeah, holding off until i have it right | 18:35 |
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| johnx_ | ok, I'll clean up this new xfbdev pacakge (this time using one only a year out of date rather than 2 years) | 18:36 |
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| Jaffa | dneary: true, implementation detail. Whichever's easiest to implement the desired behaviour. | 18:37 |
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| Jaffa | I guess storing "calculated" and "adjusted" in a single row per user would be easier to implement, though | 18:37 |
| Jaffa | i.e. today: c=1000, a=1000 | 18:37 |
| lcuk | technically isnt it "easier" for a database to store just the individual karma pieces and run a query to arrange that data | 18:39 |
| Jaffa | tomorrow: c=1020, a=(1000*0.99)+(1020-1000) = 1010 | 18:39 |
| lcuk | ie: for slashdot i can go back to the database from ~2000 and see individual comment moderation figures which effect my karma today | 18:39 |
| Jaffa | next day: c=1040, a=(1010*0.99)+(1040-1020) = 1020 | 18:40 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: indeed, but that's an even bigger change since - as dneary says - the artifacts are more disparate | 18:40 |
| thopiekar | does anyone know who to deactivate swap on a linux-vm? | 18:40 |
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| Jaffa | i.e. the table would be something like: | id | user | hash | date | url | type | | 18:40 |
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| lcuk | only because their meaning is changing. it just needs categorizing (with your type) what are you hashing? | 18:41 |
| Jaffa | lcuk: hash the content (unneedded if the URLs are canonical) so you don't double count. | 18:42 |
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| lcuk | ahhh jaffa. specifically for itt do the "thanks" things not have this info anyway? and the same for the thumbs from maemo.org. which need specific urls? | 18:44 |
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| Jaffa | lcuk: mailing list messages or something? The URL doesn't have to be something a web browser could visit - just something to identify what you're awarding the karma for. Could be, for example, ittthanks://32032/544 | 18:47 |
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| woglinde | hi | 18:48 |
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| thopiekar | hi | 18:52 |
| GeneralAntilles | Yeah, Jaffa, you dumbass! | 18:52 |
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| GeneralAntilles | I wonder if the Navis are next. | 18:53 |
| woglinde | haha | 18:54 |
| woglinde | watch your language or so | 18:54 |
| * GeneralAntilles is pretty sure Jaffa is both Bush and a Nazi. | 18:54 | |
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| woglinde | hm | 18:55 |
| GeneralAntilles | woglinde, sorry, more -users insanity. | 18:56 |
| woglinde | haha no prob | 18:56 |
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| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: I'm getting flashbacks to the voting system emails ;-) | 18:56 |
| Jaffa | I'm *obviously* blind and stupid. | 18:56 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, but only deliberately so. Which makes it a thousand times worse. :P | 18:57 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, you clearly agree 100% with his point of view, and are only disagreeing because you're a terrible person. | 18:58 |
| * Jaffa sees a list - which has, in a quick scan, nothing to do with what my point was. | 18:58 | |
| * Jaffa gets back to writing evaluations | 18:58 | |
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| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: is the most recent email from the same Mark as the one who called me a dimwitted Republican president, blind to the obvious truthiness of his statements? | 19:00 |
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| Jaffa | They read like they're from different people | 19:00 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Good god he types fast. | 19:00 |
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| Jaffa | I might need a beer. | 19:01 |
| johnx_ | mmmm....truthiness | 19:01 |
| johnx_ | may I recommend the kaluha and milk :) | 19:01 |
| johnx_ | goes down much smoother in large quanitities | 19:01 |
| GeneralAntilles | johnx_, you tested that tonight, eh? :P | 19:02 |
| GeneralAntilles | Jaffa, I should probably just unsubscribe from -users. | 19:02 |
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| * Jaffa rarely reads the threads there, TBH | 19:02 | |
| lcuk | thanks jaffa, clears it up | 19:02 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Constructive things there are usually just met with bile and flames. | 19:03 |
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| GeneralAntilles | I'm rather amazed at how much worse than itT it is. Mailing lists are strange entities. | 19:03 |
| johnx_ | GeneralAntilles, 'all you can drink' was a reasonable price... | 19:03 |
| GeneralAntilles | Hehe | 19:03 |
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| * lcuk is constantly amazed at how often misc code he writes finds its purpose sometimes years after being coded | 19:07 | |
| woglinde | lcuk *g* | 19:07 |
| lcuk | latest example, a small but complex equation to do something that i wrote just because in december 2006 and have not used just became urgent today :) | 19:09 |
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| derf | I often find myself going back for code I wrote the better part of a decade ago. | 19:10 |
| * Stskeeps tries to understand why application switcher seems only to go the better way of vertical.. | 19:11 | |
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| Jaffa | Stskeeps: the Maemo one? Probably never intended to do anything else. | 19:13 |
| Jaffa | Stskeeps: tried the one from Ubuntu MID? (or even the one in the netbook remix) | 19:13 |
| lcuk | heh derf, same here. my current library goes back to 2000 (just because of hte language) | 19:13 |
| slonopotamus | Stskeeps, hi. that patch you gave me against cx3110x... is maemo nm supposed to connect with it? | 19:14 |
| derf | I've got plenty of code that goes back farther, but I tend not to use it that much. | 19:14 |
| lcuk | i have no library from before then :'( | 19:15 |
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| Stskeeps | slonopotamus: does for me | 19:21 |
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| Stskeeps | Jaffa: mm, im not sure there's an actual patch for it | 19:21 |
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| slonopotamus | Stskeeps, argh... i'm doing something wrong. 1) rmmod 2) insmod 3) wlan-cal from initfs 4) connect. have i missed something? | 19:22 |
| Stskeeps | slonopotamus: hmm | 19:23 |
| Stskeeps | slonopotamus: ifconfig wlan0 up | 19:23 |
| slonopotamus | Stskeeps, yep. something else? any magic dances to load firmware or whatever? | 19:24 |
| Stskeeps | dmesg | 19:24 |
| GeneralAntilles | Is anybody else getting tons of duplicate emails on -users? | 19:25 |
| slonopotamus | Stskeeps, hmm... good point. will try. | 19:25 |
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| Jaffa | GeneralAntilles: only more email than I want ;-) | 19:25 |
| qwerty12 | GeneralAntilles, shh, it's part of the plan to get people's karma doubled ;) | 19:26 |
| Stskeeps | slonopotamus: http://www.daimi.au.dk/~cvm/mer-closer.png | 19:26 |
| GeneralAntilles | I like Mark's "distinction" between "Internet" and "web". | 19:27 |
| Myrtti | its teh Interhwebs? | 19:27 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, can you just run a quick rm -rf --fire on the -users instance of mailman? :P | 19:28 |
| * Myrtti is happy to subscribe only the -community list | 19:28 | |
| slonopotamus | Stskeeps, err... what's that? :) | 19:29 |
| johnx_ | slonopotamus, that's Mer getting closer to wazd's mockups :) | 19:29 |
| slonopotamus | johnx_, oh :) | 19:30 |
| Jaffa | Very exciting :) | 19:30 |
| Jaffa | At the moment, wazd's mer mockups are much more tangible than Fremantle's nebulous overall UI :) | 19:30 |
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| slonopotamus | hehe | 19:31 |
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| Stskeeps | god bless magic constants | 19:36 |
| Jaffa | No `const MAX_NUMBER_OF_HORIZONTAL_ICONS = 1'? | 19:36 |
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| slonopotamus | there isn't much magic in magic constants usually | 19:37 |
| Stskeeps | more like a , 1 that actually means , 0 .. | 19:37 |
| Stskeeps | (i hope i'm right) | 19:38 |
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| slonopotamus | something like #define 1 0 // happy debugging, assholes' ? :) | 19:39 |
| GeneralAntilles | Haha | 19:40 |
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| Stskeeps | more like changing magic constants one place and forgetting to implement it in the other | 19:45 |
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| Stskeeps | i mean, why bother, it works.. | 19:45 |
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| udovdh | anybody knows where I can find info about the gps that is in the n810? | 20:01 |
| udovdh | I mean config-info for the nmea stuff? | 20:01 |
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| neatojones | Does anyone know how to start a window manager in Mer on scratchbox? | 20:12 |
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| Stskeeps | neatojones: i'd personally just use a vmdk. | 20:19 |
| Jaffa | neatojones: start-hildon? (some of the instructions for the chroot could be copied across to the SDK instructions if you were going to test them) | 20:19 |
| neatojones | Yeah. I tried the directions for SDK. DIdn't work | 20:20 |
| neatojones | wanted to see if e17 would start on my scratchbox | 20:20 |
| Jaffa | neatojones: oh, so this is a *specific* WM you want to start? | 20:20 |
| Stskeeps | neatojones: i wouldn't bet on it :P it's not an emulator, it's a cross-compiling accelerator | 20:20 |
| Stskeeps | neatojones: i'd just grab a mer tar.gz and chroot into it | 20:20 |
| neatojones | I did a VMDK too, but removed it because I was more or less just making packages | 20:20 |
| neatojones | hmm | 20:20 |
| neatojones | might just dot that. | 20:21 |
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| neatojones | Jaffa: yes | 20:22 |
| neatojones | I know the command to start the wm | 20:22 |
| neatojones | just not in scratchbox | 20:22 |
| neatojones | the af-sb-init.sh start command was a no-go | 20:23 |
| neatojones | they all gave permissions errors even with fakeroot | 20:23 |
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| neatojones | ie: mmap: Permission denied | 20:25 |
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| RST38h | moo all again | 20:28 |
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| mikkov_ | neatojones: see http://inz.fi/blog/2008/01/17/scratchbox-on-hardy/ | 20:38 |
| neatojones | thank mikkov_ | 20:39 |
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| darkblue_B | hi there happy tableteers... | 20:39 |
| darkblue_B | Q. about repos and pkgs and such... | 20:39 |
| darkblue_B | I prefer a simple editor on the command line, like nano... I got nano for an N800 a few weeks ago, but in my notes wrote only gronmayer.com/it | 20:40 |
| darkblue_B | but now I look and see it is a meta-repo listing | 20:40 |
| darkblue_B | can I either a) do a better search for nano, somewhere in one of those repos (yes I did "find on page" in the browser and did not get it) | 20:41 |
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| darkblue_B | or b) use the OS to find it and move it to another new tablet.. I notice dpkg does not know about everything I have installed.. I suppose if directly from .deb or something | 20:42 |
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| darkblue_B | aha, dpkg -l does show nano though... | 20:46 |
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| mikkov_ | nano is in tools repository: deb http://repository.maemo.org diablo/tools free non-free | 20:47 |
| mikkov_ | http://maemo.org/development/tools/ | 20:47 |
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| darkblue_B | mikkov_: looking | 20:49 |
| darkblue_B | mikkov_: how did you find that? | 20:49 |
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| mikkov_ | darkblue_B: I just know stuff :) | 20:50 |
| darkblue_B | :-( | 20:51 |
| Myrtti | MAAAGGIC | 20:52 |
| darkblue_B | you guys were the ones that kicked under classmen in Jr High School too, huh? | 20:53 |
| * lcuk wonders if Myrtti has taken her medication today :P | 20:53 | |
| darkblue_B | s/kicked/sat on/ | 20:53 |
| infobot | darkblue_B meant: you guys were the ones that sat on under classmen in Jr High School too, huh? | 20:53 |
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| Myrtti | lcuk: I'm just cheery, I had a wicked cool idea and I'm cooking | 20:53 |
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| * Myrtti doesn't get what darkblue_B means, but doesn't strain her brain with it, and goes back to cook | 20:54 | |
| * lcuk goes round to Myrtti's for tea | 20:54 | |
| lcuk | what ya cooking? | 20:54 |
| darkblue_B | Myrtti: if someone answers a search quesiton once, I never have to ask again, because I can then do it myself | 20:54 |
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| lcuk | or is this yourtop secret code idea | 20:55 |
| darkblue_B | Myrtti: if you reply MAAGGIC then I dont know how to do it myself | 20:55 |
| darkblue_B | thats what I meant | 20:55 |
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| Myrtti | darkblue_B: oh, ok. | 20:55 |
| * lcuk wanted to take nokia with him today | 20:56 | |
| lcuk | but the damned battery was flat | 20:56 |
| Myrtti | lcuk: I guess it could be called chili con carne, though I'm doing it with fresh bell peppers, leek, peperoni peppers, mince, kidney beans, crushed tomatoes, served with steamed barley/jasmine rice | 20:56 |
| lcuk | mmmm sounds good, bet your house smells devine | 20:58 |
| lcuk | are there any cooking.recipe programs for nit | 20:58 |
| lcuk | ones with a timer and binger things | 20:59 |
| qwerty12_N800 | yerga's pyrecipe iirc | 20:59 |
| lcuk | cos tracy does all hers currently using her nokia phone and loads of manual timers | 20:59 |
| lcuk | cool | 20:59 |
| darkblue_B | so apparently I use the string -> deb http://repository.maemo.org diablo/tools free non-free | 20:59 |
| qwerty12_N800 | lcuk: not sure on the name but I know yerga has ported one and made one himself | 20:59 |
| darkblue_B | file /etc/apt/sources.list is empty | 21:00 |
| mikkov_ | darkblue_B: there are installation instuctions at http://maemo.org/development/tools/ | 21:00 |
| darkblue_B | mikkov_: looking | 21:01 |
| darkblue_B | nice.. thx | 21:01 |
| mikkov_ | just forget the fakeroot thing on tablet | 21:01 |
| * RST38h salivates | 21:02 | |
| RST38h | Myrtti: You should have given all these details... | 21:02 |
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| Myrtti | RST38h: hmmm? O:-) | 21:03 |
| lcuk | Myrtti, have you got yourself an 8x0 now or are you still on 770 | 21:03 |
| Myrtti | lcuk: 10d, 4h, 46m, 20s till I'm in UK and could get my hands on my n800 | 21:03 |
| lcuk | i take it thats a no | 21:04 |
| lcuk | for now :P | 21:04 |
| Myrtti | I can install stuff to it by proxy though :-P | 21:04 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Myrtti: you should get x11vnc on it :) | 21:04 |
| lcuk | heh | 21:04 |
| lcuk | "application installed, press OK to continue" | 21:05 |
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| lcuk | hi there fiferboy how goes it | 21:05 |
| darkblue_B | mikkov_: fake root? | 21:05 |
| Myrtti | my technique is a bit more finetuned | 21:05 |
| Myrtti | "durlin, could you please install this software to my n800 and tell me if it's any good, kthx" | 21:06 |
| lcuk | VNC over carrier pigeon? | 21:06 |
| Myrtti | *blinkblink* | 21:06 |
| qwerty12_N800 | lol | 21:06 |
| fiferboy | lcuk: Pretty good. Trying to find time to go back over my maemo4 apps, and try out maemo5 SDK | 21:06 |
| ShadowJK | 400 not 410? :-) | 21:06 |
| qwerty12_N800 | hey Andrew :) | 21:06 |
| darkblue_B | mikkov_: oh, some scratch box reference | 21:07 |
| lcuk | heh fiferboy we are all trying to find time to do everything | 21:07 |
| darkblue_B | yeah I am skipping that.. at some point I could put a MER in a VM.. but now now | 21:07 |
| fiferboy | heem | 21:07 |
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| * lcuk doesnt see how or why people use virtual tablets, the touchscreen feel and responsiveness of the app is vital | 21:08 | |
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| fiferboy | Hey Faheem | 21:08 |
| darkblue_B | development.. if you are referring to MER or scratchbox | 21:08 |
| * lcuk develops directly on diablo | 21:09 | |
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| darkblue_B | lcuk: you type with the stylus too ? | 21:10 |
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| fiferboy | lbt: Does shopper build against qt 4.5 in diablo? | 21:11 |
| lcuk | darkblue_B, no, i type on my big keyboard usually, but when i am out and about i use the little one or my apple bt keyboard | 21:11 |
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| darkblue_B | well I enabled Red Pill Mode on a new N800, added diablo/tools, checked "Show All Packages" in Applicatin Manager prefs, and I still dont see the nano package :-/ | 21:13 |
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| mikkov_ | try "apt-get install nano" | 21:14 |
| darkblue_B | ok | 21:14 |
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| darkblue_B | mikkov_: ok, working, thx | 21:14 |
| lbt | fiferboy: hope so... | 21:15 |
| lbt | not tried yet - the deb is against 4.4 | 21:15 |
| fiferboy | I want to try out finger scrolling, but I have 4.5 installed on my tablet | 21:15 |
| fiferboy | Trying to build in scratchbox I get an error | 21:15 |
| lbt | get the source... dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -b | 21:15 |
| lbt | what error? | 21:16 |
| fiferboy | src/CatListModel.cc: In member function `virtual QVariant Shopper::CatListModel::headerData(int, Qt::Orientation, int) const': | 21:16 |
| fiferboy | /opt/qt45/include/qt4/QtCore/qvariant.h:408: error: `QVariant::QVariant(void*)' is private | 21:16 |
| fiferboy | src/CatListModel.cc:88: error: within this context | 21:16 |
| lbt | OK - that's possibly a tightening up and a bug | 21:16 |
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| darkblue_B | now to find that "Show IP" app.. priceless | 21:17 |
| fiferboy | Do you think it is caused by a change between 4.4 and 4.5? | 21:19 |
| lbt | fiferboy: I'm off out now - email me and try me tomorrow... david@dgreaves.com | 21:19 |
| lbt | but yes I do | 21:19 |
| fiferboy | Will do. Thanks | 21:19 |
| lbt | it compiles fine for me and http://doc.trolltech.com/4.5/qvariant.html | 21:19 |
| lbt | looks OK | 21:19 |
| darkblue_B | "home ip" | 21:19 |
| fiferboy | I'll work on it. It might be my build set up | 21:19 |
| lbt | I may need to do QVariant(QString("Ptr")) | 21:19 |
| lbt | but shouldn't | 21:19 |
| lbt | anyhow l8r | 21:19 |
| RST38h | qt. evil. | 21:20 |
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| fiferboy | RST38h: How so? | 21:21 |
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| RST38h | fiferboy: just is. | 21:22 |
| fiferboy | For developing or using? | 21:23 |
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| fiferboy | I like it for both | 21:23 |
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| RST38h | it is probably lesser of two evils when compared to gtk | 21:24 |
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| RST38h | I kinda prefer gtk UIs more though, dunno why, they just look lighter | 21:24 |
| derf | My main objection is to the C++. | 21:25 |
| derf | The use of their own special pre-processor doesn't help. | 21:25 |
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| * guysoft42 just installed debian chroot and is blown away by it - its so cool! | 21:27 | |
| RST38h | derf: evil! | 21:27 |
| fiferboy | derf: You mean that it isn't "true" c++? | 21:27 |
| fiferboy | Or the use of c++ at all? | 21:28 |
| keesj | qt makes c++ bareable | 21:28 |
| RST38h | fiferboy: having a preprocessor makes things a bit more difficult | 21:28 |
| derf | fiferboy: Yes. | 21:28 |
| guysoft42 | i dono. i know c++ is nice because its fast but i am a lazy programer and i like python and eclipse really.. i only use c when there is no escape | 21:29 |
| derf | C++ is not fast. | 21:29 |
| guysoft42 | well its faster than python | 21:29 |
| derf | Okay, but totally not a comparable language. | 21:29 |
| guysoft42 | derf, we have in our foss community here someone that built a CMS on c++ | 21:30 |
| Myrtti | lcuk, RST38h: todays lunch, and dinner at http://www.flickr.com/photos/myrtti/archives/date-posted/2009/03/06/ | 21:30 |
| guysoft42 | he wanted to show its the way to go and that languages like PHP and perl etc only make it less efficient | 21:30 |
| guysoft42 | i think he made his proof , his CMS is pretty fast, and he even got it to be compatible with embedded systems | 21:31 |
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| * Sho_ finds the preprocessor animosity overblown | 21:32 | |
| darkblue_B | c++ is not fast??! | 21:32 |
| darkblue_B | whoops | 21:32 |
| darkblue_B | almost every commercial application is written in c++, fyi | 21:32 |
| guysoft42 | derf, well all languages could be compared, although not all are used for the same purpose. from the programmer side all languages have a common goal - to be easy to use (well except fukbrain) | 21:33 |
| Myrtti | would you perhaps mean Midgard? | 21:33 |
| Myrtti | guysoft42: and brainfuck? | 21:33 |
| Myrtti | though, I'm not sure myself what tinopeners, perpetuum mobiles and hacksaws are used to make midgard... | 21:34 |
| RST38h | derf: C++ is as fast as C if you know what you are doing | 21:34 |
| guysoft42 | Myrtti, yes that one.. | 21:34 |
| derf | RST38h: That is a huge IF. | 21:34 |
| Myrtti | guysoft42: that would be the one that maemo.org runs on :-) | 21:34 |
| darkblue_B | derf -> under-informed | 21:34 |
| RST38h | derf: I am ok with it | 21:34 |
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| derf | I've worked with quite a number of C++ programmers. | 21:34 |
| derf | None of them knew what they were doing. | 21:34 |
| RST38h | darkblue: May I ask you a question? | 21:34 |
| darkblue_B | sure.. | 21:35 |
| guysoft42 | IF exists in both (double mening!) | 21:35 |
| RST38h | derf: Well, hire some good ones | 21:35 |
| darkblue_B | (dons flame retardent) | 21:35 |
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| RST38h | darkblue: How C++ being used in many commercial applications makes it fast? | 21:35 |
| derf | RST38h: If they were good, they wouldn't use C++. | 21:35 |
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| Pavlov | lol | 21:35 |
| darkblue_B | *sigh* | 21:35 |
| RST38h | derf: And what would they use? | 21:35 |
| Pavlov | RST38h: he's a troll | 21:35 |
| guysoft42 | i think you are overrating commercial | 21:36 |
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| RST38h | Pavlov: And I am an internet predator | 21:36 |
| * Myrtti gives everyone a lollipop | 21:36 | |
| derf | If you actually care about speed, you cannot hide all of your abstractions, so you're much better off with C. | 21:36 |
| darkblue_B | ok, so the story goes.. Barny Stroustroup is at a party.. mr CS PhD from Berkeley sees him and heads straight over | 21:36 |
| guysoft42 | i think mainly they have to work with what they already have.. it takes loger to shift | 21:36 |
| Pavlov | derf: lol | 21:36 |
| RST38h | derf: So they would use C? | 21:36 |
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| derf | If you actually care about a high level language and development time, you should use an actual high level language that supports things like garbage collection. | 21:36 |
| Pavlov | derf sounds a lot like someone who doesn't actually know how to use C++ | 21:36 |
| darkblue_B | Stroustroup sees him coming from 10 feet away and says premptively, "I know, C++ is screwed up" | 21:36 |
| darkblue_B | .. urban legend / true story | 21:37 |
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| darkblue_B | so, in short, I am not going to be the one sitting here defending c++ !! | 21:37 |
| RST38h | derf: All right, would you care to explain what part of C++ makes it slow? | 21:37 |
| Pavlov | no part of C++ makes it slow | 21:37 |
| darkblue_B | but, its under-informed to say c++ is "slow", especially in the same breath as python | 21:37 |
| guysoft42 | honestly i just have c++ as a university course now.. but in dont go to it.. i know C already. and python, so i can i figure things out | 21:37 |
| Pavlov | you can write stupid code in any language | 21:37 |
| guysoft42 | darkblue_B, yep.. | 21:38 |
| darkblue_B | Pavlov: yep | 21:38 |
| Sho_ | Regarding Qt's preprocessor, it's used to implement useful things that make the toolkit's API significantly more convenient. And at the time it was conceived, there was no other viable way of doing it. That said, Qt has never used the preprocessor in an attempt to do lock-in - it generally interoperates well with the STL, and you're e.g. free to use boost's template-based signals-and-slots instead of Qt's preprocessor-based ones (the template route wasn't viable back | 21:38 |
| guysoft42 | Pavlov, yep egain | 21:38 |
| RST38h | Myrtti: this is cruel of you to show this stuff to someone who only had two slices of bread with cheese | 21:38 |
| Sho_ | then, due to poor compiler support). | 21:38 |
| guysoft42 | again* | 21:38 |
| derf | The point is that C++ _encourages_ writing stupid code much more than, say, C does. | 21:38 |
| Pavlov | no it doesn't | 21:38 |
| Myrtti | RST38h: if you're nearby Tampere, Finland, I've got plenty to share ;-) | 21:38 |
| * darkblue_B tunes out derf | 21:38 | |
| RST38h | derf: Sorry but could you tell exactly what part of C++ makes it slow? | 21:38 |
| Pavlov | when a C app gets over a few thousand lines of code they start reimplementing vtables | 21:38 |
| slonopotamus | in moments like this i truly feel that irc doesn't scale | 21:39 |
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| guysoft42 | i liked python's attitude that you carn't not-indent.. at least if you write stupid code you stupidity is visible | 21:39 |
| * darkblue_B wrote commercial sfwr for 16 years | 21:39 | |
| RST38h | derf: (btw, I *know* what parts of C++ may make your program slow, so just checking if you kow what you are talking about) | 21:39 |
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| derf | I'm not terribly interested in playing quiz games just to prove how smart I am. | 21:39 |
| RST38h | Myrtti: Too far | 21:39 |
| Pavlov | derf: its ok, you already failed | 21:40 |
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| RST38h | derf: [scratching head] Just verifying that you know what you are talking about | 21:40 |
| * guysoft42 just noticed that his double-negative means we need also a new english language release candidate | 21:40 | |
| RST38h | lts drp ll vwls t sv sm spc | 21:40 |
| Pavlov | r/win 23 | 21:41 |
| guysoft42 | RST38h, error on line 1: e expected in word | 21:41 |
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| slonopotamus | :D | 21:41 |
| RST38h | FF3 update has arrived | 21:41 |
| guysoft42 | RST38h, is it such a drama? so its 3.0.0.0.0.0.4 and not 3.0.0.0.0.0.03 | 21:42 |
| RST38h | guysoft: No idea, but the last update did manage to break something | 21:43 |
| * RST38h really needs wazd now: TI83+ is finally working but there is no skin for it | 21:43 | |
| guysoft42 | RST38h, i have on my debian system here 779 new updates.. i need to free disk space to see another update.. | 21:43 |
| derf | RST38h: If I thought there was a chance for an actual productive conversation among this crowd, I might care, but I can see that there is not. | 21:44 |
| slonopotamus | RST38h, i wonder when they run out of security holes. looks like never. | 21:44 |
| RST38h | guysoft: Ah that is easy, delete Evolution and OpenOffice :) | 21:44 |
| guysoft42 | RST38h, is the source out there yet? i would like that thing on my PCs.. | 21:44 |
| Myrtti | RST38h: the pink hellokitty calculator? | 21:44 |
| RST38h | derf: Well, I tried to make a productive conversation by asking which features of C++ you consider detrimental to performance | 21:45 |
| Myrtti | :-> | 21:45 |
| Sho_ | RST38h: "qt is evil" wasn't a much more differenciated statement than derf's C++ comments, tho' | 21:45 |
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| guysoft42 | RST38h, na - the mail folder in Evolution takes more space than all the debs.. well , maybe just the lib* packages | 21:45 |
| RST38h | Myrtti: Sadly, it is laid out for the Silver Edition | 21:45 |
| Myrtti | *snifff* | 21:45 |
| RST38h | Myrtti: But yes, I have got that skin and it is DEFINITELY coming to Extras once I have TI83+SE working =) | 21:45 |
| RST38h | guysoft: Kill and move to GMail | 21:45 |
| guysoft42 | well i could always do updates now on debian chroot .. yay.. | 21:45 |
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| guysoft42 | RST38h, i use imap.. i have it on 2 computers + nokia now | 21:46 |
| RST38h | Sho_: When I make such statements, I am usually joking or trolling =) | 21:46 |
| Sho_ | RST38h: Maybe derf is a big jokster, too ;-) | 21:46 |
| derf | RST38h: You mean besides virtual functions, virtual base classes, constructors, exceptions, templates... | 21:46 |
| guysoft42 | RST38h, was funny that week when g-mail fell. people kept complaining, and i didn't know why.. | 21:46 |
| RST38h | Sho: But don't be careless, if I really want to, I will shit all over qt, c++, or any other topic =) | 21:46 |
| Sho_ | RST38h: Do some qt shitting then, that would interest me ;) | 21:47 |
| slonopotamus | woooo! qemu 0.10.0 released! | 21:47 |
| RST38h | Sho: Well, custom preprocessor and binary API changing with each new version, if you wish | 21:48 |
| RST38h | derf: All right | 21:48 |
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| Sho_ | RST38h: Qt maintains ABI stability in major release series, actually | 21:49 |
| RST38h | derf: To start with, templates do not really affect performance, they are compile time feature. They are messy all right, but performance is not involved | 21:49 |
| * guysoft42 is running kstars on my nokia N810 over debian chroot | 21:49 | |
| derf | RST38h: Tell that to the 8MB binaries and 100MB libraries that have to be loaded because someone decided to use templates and instantiated 1,000 different ones. | 21:50 |
| RST38h | derf: Now, virtual functions and virtual base classes: these are simply arrays of handler pointers, widely used in C as well (see gtk for example) | 21:50 |
| guysoft42 | say - is there a way to access the debian chroot start menu? that would really be cool, would mean its just like using the normal repository.. | 21:50 |
| Sho_ | RST38h: As for the preprocessor, see the '<Sho_> Regarding Qt's preprocessor [...]' line | 21:50 |
| RST38h | derf: You have to be aware that they cause a pointer dereference and use them with caution | 21:50 |
| derf | RST38h: Sure, but C++ hides that fact, and most programmers do not treat it with caution. | 21:50 |
| derf | My argument was that it _encourages_ bad behavior. | 21:50 |
| RST38h | derf: C++ does not hade that fact | 21:50 |
| derf | Not that you can't write good code. | 21:50 |
| RST38h | derf: It clearly requires you to write VIRTUAL in front of such pointers | 21:51 |
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| RST38h | derf: Now, constructors: if you do not want to initialize stuff (just like in C) you do not need to povide a constructor | 21:51 |
| guysoft42 | anyone here playing with easy debian chroot? | 21:51 |
| RST38h | derf: But a lot of C programs have Init() functions | 21:51 |
| RST38h | derf: C++ constructor lets you write such a function in intelligent manner | 21:52 |
| RST38h | derf: when you do memset(&Var,0,sizeof(Var)) in C, you pretty much run a constructor | 21:52 |
| derf | RST38h: No, it requires some guy who defined your base class to write virtual in front of them. | 21:52 |
| * guysoft42 throws an exception at that constructor | 21:53 | |
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| RST38h | derf: Now, the only remaining feature you listed is exceptions and these DO waste performance | 21:53 |
| RST38h | derf: no it does not | 21:53 |
| derf | And C++ constructors run repeatedly and _uselessly_. | 21:53 |
| RST38h | derf: Who told you that? | 21:53 |
| RST38h | derf: If I write a constructor, it means I WANT it to run. | 21:53 |
| derf | And require an extremely intelligent compiler to actually figure out how to optimize out all of the useless crap and temporary objects in return-by-value calls, etc. | 21:54 |
| RST38h | mmm? | 21:54 |
| * darkblue_B dips in the memory pool | 21:54 | |
| guysoft42 | hell kstars takes 55MB of ram.. | 21:54 |
| RST38h | A lot of people and companies simply do not use exceptions, as a policy | 21:54 |
| RST38h | Not even for performance reasons but because exceptions mess up execution flow too badly | 21:54 |
| derf | Which is fine, as long as you don't want to use any third-party libraries. | 21:55 |
| RST38h | derf: None of the base C++ libs use exceptions | 21:55 |
| RST38h | templates yes, exceptions no | 21:55 |
| RST38h | as to third party stuff, C++ is not responsible for it as a language | 21:55 |
| derf | Which is the real danger of C++... you can confine _yourself_ to a useful subset. You cannot confine others. | 21:55 |
| RST38h | I can ignore those others who do wrong stuff from my POV | 21:56 |
| derf | Well, that's fine if you want to write all the code yourself. | 21:56 |
| RST38h | Not necessarily | 21:56 |
| derf | That's an extremely limited way to build software, however. | 21:56 |
| Sho_ | RST38h: So for example, Qt maintained binary compatibility from Qt 3 in early 2001 until Qt 4 in summer 2005, and then again for Qt 4 until now (and Qt 5 is many years off) | 21:56 |
| RST38h | I do not ignore EVERYBODY, just choosing tools and libraries that are sane and safe to use | 21:56 |
| RST38h | Sho: Which is exactly why our product has to link both qt4 and qt3 | 21:57 |
| guysoft42 | i had to give in an assignment a few weeks ago for c++ in university, we were told to build a constructor and validate the input given to it.. so natrualy i found i had to use an exception for that - since you carn't return anything from a constructor.. aprently its not included in the course.. so you can imagine all the people leaning it would not know that untill later. might be too late by then | 21:57 |
| derf | RST38h: There were very few of these when I gave up on C++ completely (around 2000). Now every other kid wants to use all this boost crap, which I do not consider an improvement. | 21:58 |
| RST38h | guysoft: Of course, there is another way to doit | 21:58 |
| Sho_ | RST38h: Or you could port it (and use qt3support). In any case, I'm not aware of any open source toolkit that has done significantly better on binary compatibility. | 21:58 |
| RST38h | guysoft: If you have got wrong input, you set your object into "invalid" state and make all methods fail. | 21:58 |
| RST38h | Sho: libc :) | 21:58 |
| Sho_ | RST38h: libc is a great GUI toolkit for sure ;) | 21:58 |
| RST38h | Sho: You did not say "GUI" :) | 21:59 |
| Sho_ | RST38h: It's implied considering Qt is one ;) | 21:59 |
| RST38h | guysoft: Using exceptions here is unwarranted, unless your instructor told you to use them | 21:59 |
| Sho_ | (Not that I want to discourage you from writing non-GUI Qt apps using qt-core, mind you) | 21:59 |
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| RST38h | derf: As I said, if you are stupid, no language is going to help you | 22:00 |
| derf | This is categorically not true. | 22:01 |
| RST38h | derf: C+, C, Java, Visual Basic, FORTRAN - you can screw up in any language | 22:01 |
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| RST38h | You will of course screw up a bit differently every time | 22:01 |
| derf | Yes, but one language hands you a loaded gun with the nozzle tied to your toes. | 22:01 |
| RST38h | C++ does? Mmm | 22:01 |
| RST38h | Well, by all means, use that gun, get fired, switch to PHP. | 22:02 |
| Sho_ | (A large amount of successful and performant C++ software would seem to be evidence to the contrary) | 22:02 |
| derf | There are tons of things wrong with Java, but the one thing going for it is that it makes mediocre programmers relatively useful. | 22:02 |
| RST38h | Java does? And for what purpose do they become useful? | 22:03 |
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| derf | I work for a defense contractor with tons of mediocre programmers. | 22:03 |
| RST38h | Are there any useful tools written in Java? | 22:03 |
| Sho_ | Actually I'd say that's what makes Java a problem, especially its use in teaching: It lowers the standard :-) | 22:03 |
| RST38h | Eclipse? :) | 22:03 |
| derf | There are volumes upon volumes of middleware written in Java, because businesses can hire these mediocre programmers, sit them down, and have them do a bunch of plumbing, and at the end things mostly work. | 22:04 |
| RST38h | Middleware? :) Is it useful? :) | 22:04 |
| RST38h | And can't a small PERL script do the same thing? :) | 22:05 |
| derf | It's useful enough that a bunch of businesses spent a ton of money on it. | 22:05 |
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| derf | Personally I don't like to write plumbing. But there is a _huge_ market for it. | 22:05 |
| Sho_ | Perl programmers, of course, go through two phases: In phase I, nobody can read their code, because they don't know the language. In phase II, nobody can read their code, because they know the language. | 22:05 |
| RST38h | Well, that is mainly a function of agressivness in marketing | 22:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | Isn't there a #c++ or something this can go to? | 22:06 |
| derf | It's not the year 2000. If all they were was marketing, they wouldn't be here anymore. | 22:06 |
| lcuk | derf, yeah and most of that business logic is held up with data access so no matter the performance level it doesnt matter | 22:06 |
| RST38h | General: They probably ban for that =) | 22:06 |
| derf | lcuk: Exactly. | 22:06 |
| GeneralAntilles | I'm all for offtopic, but you've monopolized the channel for almost an hour now and it's time to move on. | 22:06 |
| derf | Java is not a good language for performance, but it doesn't matter. | 22:06 |
| lcuk | thats why visual basic works | 22:06 |
| RST38h | VB no longer works, replaced with C# | 22:06 |
| lcuk | same principle | 22:06 |
| Sho_ | GeneralAntilles: You're probably righr, especially since the debate isn't exactly breaking new ground | 22:07 |
| Sho_ | *right | 22:07 |
| lcuk | yeah but thats same thing | 22:07 |
| RST38h | Sho: Yea, it is the same old shit basically | 22:07 |
| lcuk | tho now - microsoft have shot themselves in the foot by doing GUI in the same | 22:07 |
| derf | Well, I said at the beginning I did not expect this conversation to be productive. | 22:07 |
| lcuk | and the users have noticed | 22:07 |
| derf | Though at least RST38h was cogent and did not attack me personally. | 22:07 |
| RST38h | Sho: I kinda hoped for some original entertainment | 22:07 |
| RST38h | derf: Attacking opponent personally is considered loss | 22:08 |
| Sho_ | RST38h: and I always fall into the anti-preprocessor flame trap ;-) | 22:08 |
| lcuk | GeneralAntilles, conversation (even arguments) are good from time to time | 22:08 |
| RST38h | derf: Unless you do it in a really artistic way, pushing opponent toward eventual suicide | 22:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, this one ran out its usefulness a long time ago | 22:08 |
| GeneralAntilles | and not when it prevents other people from getting answers to productive questions. | 22:09 |
| lcuk | phoey, this is the first time in a long time ive seen this chan at what i expect as normal speed | 22:09 |
| RST38h | General: It has been quiet here, no need to be this thick :) | 22:09 |
| GeneralAntilles | Today is "let's bicker" day, apparently. | 22:10 |
| RST38h | Every day is let's bicker day lately | 22:10 |
| lcuk | friday cant be arsed day | 22:10 |
| * lcuk is gonna get very drunk tonight | 22:10 | |
| lcuk | then code | 22:10 |
| RST38h | Either time of the year or everybody is tired waiting for n900 | 22:11 |
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| RST38h | lcuk: will it make liqbase do the jigsaw thing when scrolling? =) | 22:11 |
| lcuk | jigsaw? | 22:11 |
| RST38h | you know, scroll in little weirdly shaped pieces | 22:12 |
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| lcuk | explain | 22:12 |
| r2d2rogers | tearing? | 22:12 |
| GeneralAntilles | Somebody should implement a kinetic scrolling method in Clutter where pieces occasionally randomly tear off from whatever you're trying to scroll. | 22:13 |
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| RST38h | lcuk: Check out the jigsaw screensaver in Linux, imagine that instead of shifting pieces, each piece scrolls on its own in random direction :) | 22:13 |
| lcuk | lol GeneralAntilles | 22:14 |
| lcuk | "classic" mode | 22:14 |
| lcuk | RST38h, ive got the kinetic calendar - its got columns, i keep wanting each column to scroll on its own | 22:14 |
| lcuk | to make an instrument | 22:14 |
| RST38h | heheh | 22:14 |
| GeneralAntilles | *scroll, scroll, scroll, flick, flick--RIIIIIIP* | 22:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | "Goddamnit!" | 22:15 |
| RST38h | and there is a monster jumping at you from the rip | 22:15 |
| RST38h | or the Crazy Nokia Fish (tm) | 22:15 |
| GeneralAntilles | Exposed sparking circuit board | 22:15 |
| RST38h | bzzzzzzzt | 22:15 |
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| lcuk | :D | 22:17 |
| lcuk | zoom fish! | 22:17 |
| lcuk | some dude in slashdot summarized my video perfectly | 22:17 |
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| lcuk | That was a very confusing video. What I learned from it: you haven't done some stuff, Zoom Fish!, widgets, Zoom Fish!, behind schedule, zoom, Fish!, widget framework, Fish! | 22:17 |
| lcuk | I guess it's a system that lets you zoom in on fish? | 22:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Tear the piece off and water starts flowing out and filling up the screen. | 22:17 |
| lcuk | http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1120469&cid=26775751 | 22:17 |
| GeneralAntilles | Water that you can shake around with the accelerometers. | 22:17 |
| RST38h | Samsung or LG has done that already | 22:18 |
| RST38h | To indicate battery charge | 22:18 |
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| GeneralAntilles | RST38h, that's nice, but I want to see it on a tablet. | 22:21 |
| RST38h | General: You probably will, not from Nokia, but the thing is too fun and too simple | 22:21 |
| RST38h | Someone WILL implement it once we have accelerometers | 22:21 |
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| * Stskeeps tries to get the cobwebs off himself after wandering in hildon-desktop application switcher | 22:33 | |
| harbaum__ | I like accelerometers :-) | 22:34 |
| harbaum__ | Have built them for most of my gizmos | 22:34 |
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| harbaum__ | The enigma just needs an accelerometer | 22:35 |
| harbaum__ | s/enigma/enigma game/ | 22:35 |
| infobot | harbaum__ meant: The enigma game just needs an accelerometer | 22:35 |
| woglinde | re | 22:36 |
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| coldboot | What maemo repository can you use to get access to applications that debian would have, but aren't present in maemo diablo? | 22:40 |
| coldboot | For example, I want to install cgdb, but diablo doesn't have it. | 22:40 |
| GeneralAntilles | coldboot, you'll have to recompile. | 22:41 |
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| harbaum__ | Hmm, i just uploaded goocanvas to the fremantle repository. We'll see if there's an autobuilder processing this ... | 22:42 |
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| woglinde | harbaum *g* | 22:42 |
| coldboot | GeneralAntilles: Thanks. | 22:42 |
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| lcuk | ooof fremantle menu | 23:11 |
| lcuk | oooh | 23:11 |
| neatojones | b-man: the e17 debs are all up. They still seem to suffer from the same problems as the ones from before. | 23:11 |
| neatojones | that being: The onscreen keyboard doesn't work. | 23:11 |
| vasily_pupkin | anybody know map manager for maemo with search | 23:11 |
| b-man | hmm | 23:11 |
| vasily_pupkin | ? :] | 23:11 |
| neatojones | But, I do have an idea to get around it. | 23:12 |
| lcuk | vasily_pupkin, "treasure?" | 23:12 |
| b-man | ok :) | 23:12 |
| lcuk | "error, not a pirate" | 23:12 |
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| b-man | neatojones: what's the plan? :) | 23:13 |
| neatojones | I built e17 on my system into /opt/e17 then tar that folder. I'm going to try extracting it to a new install. Install the dependencies. then add /opt/e17/bin to the PATH file. | 23:13 |
| neatojones | Should work the same as my install. | 23:13 |
| * qwerty12_N800 wonders if he'll ever get a decent uptime on his tablet. | 23:13 | |
| lcuk | qwerty12_N800, yeah, just run normal apps | 23:14 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Not gonna happen in this lifetime :) | 23:14 |
| lcuk | yo uneed a spare | 23:14 |
| lcuk | i need a keyboard | 23:15 |
| X-Fade | Sigh, I need a copy of the Nokia binaries repo for fremantle for the autobuilder.. | 23:15 |
| neatojones | b-man: it will also have the advantages that it will update to the latest svn anytime the user wants if they install a package which I will link to. | 23:15 |
| neatojones | and hopefully prevent the other problems. | 23:15 |
| qwerty12_N800 | lcuk: My best is 2d 11h :/ : http://qwerty12.maemobox.org/N800_Uptime.htm | 23:15 |
| lcuk | awww | 23:15 |
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| neatojones | but, that's about all I can think to do for now, till I can find a way to get fix whatever is going wrong. | 23:15 |
| lcuk | mine stays up for much longer normally | 23:15 |
| lcuk | but today it didnt | 23:15 |
| b-man | ok :) | 23:16 |
| neatojones | turns out the entire e17 folder is only 52MB extracted. :0 | 23:16 |
| b-man | heh | 23:16 |
| b-man | neatojones: should i wait a little longer before i upload it to the repo? | 23:17 |
| neatojones | So, I'm reflashing the SD with 0.9 now to test the theory. | 23:17 |
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| neatojones | Nah. The e17 debs work. | 23:17 |
| b-man | k | 23:17 |
| neatojones | They just don't have an onscreen keyboard. Some of the extra modules haven't been built yet either. | 23:18 |
| neatojones | but, it functions. | 23:18 |
| luke-jr | I uses 'sox -t alsa default z.wav' to record some audio; any idea how I can play it? | 23:18 |
| luke-jr | or did I not record anything really? | 23:18 |
| neatojones | Also, the background has those annoying horizontal lines you can see in qole's screenshots. | 23:18 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, big issue? | 23:18 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Nah, just need help from Marcell or Stefano. But I guess they have better things to do on a Friday night ;) | 23:19 |
| neatojones | b-man: I'm going to try to build e17 again later with support for evas-software--16bit-X11 and see if that fixes it. | 23:19 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, can't you just get a hash and feed it the repo? | 23:19 |
| b-man | neatojones: ok | 23:19 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Then the hash will be in every log ;) | 23:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | Ah | 23:20 |
| neatojones | There is something not happening with the deb builds compared to the manual build | 23:20 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Hence the local repo ;) | 23:20 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, did you set up a local? | 23:20 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Well no, I need the files to set it up on the builder. | 23:20 |
| b-man | neatojones: do you think editing /debian/rules might help? | 23:20 |
| neatojones | b-man: also, the e17 depends on the libgtk2.0 that is in the Mer repo. So, you might want it too | 23:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, just copy 'em over? | 23:21 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Firewall, hidden stuff. | 23:21 |
| neatojones | b-man: It might. I've been looking into it. I've played with the control files and the e17-data.install file as well. | 23:21 |
| neatojones | the log from the build looks like the keyboard files should be there...but they dont end up in the package. I don't get it. | 23:21 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, yeah, OK, I'll shut up. You clearly know WTF is what. :D | 23:21 |
| b-man | it might have something to do with MakeFile also | 23:22 |
| GeneralAntilles | X-Fade, don't tell me we're gonna have to wait 'til Monday, though? | 23:22 |
| neatojones | I would think the makefile would be the same if I used dpkg-buildpackage or just make | 23:22 |
| X-Fade | GeneralAntilles: Nah, but it won't be today probably. | 23:23 |
| neatojones | ..sigh. I'll get it figured out eventually. I just need other people to test and try it who might be able to figure it out. | 23:24 |
| neatojones | b-man: Like I said, it is functional...but just missing some of the best features. | 23:25 |
| b-man | it might have different settings | 23:25 |
| b-man | i'll upload the debs then and then update them when you get those fixed :) | 23:26 |
| neatojones | sounds good :) | 23:26 |
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| X-Fade | qwerty12_N800: Can you upload a package to the diablo autobuilder, to see if I did't break anything? :) | 23:27 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | X-Fade: I can upload the useless subcategories test v0.2? :) | 23:28 |
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| * b-man needs to update his mer install while he's at it also | 23:28 | |
| X-Fade | qwerty12_N800: Nah, some working package. Just spin the revision +1 ;) | 23:28 |
| neatojones | b-man: by the way...it was thopiekar that said you couldn't run AWN. | 23:28 |
| neatojones | you might wanna show your pics to him. | 23:29 |
| b-man | hehe | 23:29 |
| neatojones | :) | 23:29 |
| b-man | i will :D | 23:29 |
| neatojones | did you convert your tablet to OS-X yet? | 23:29 |
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| b-man | not yet, but i will ;) | 23:29 |
| neatojones | :D | 23:29 |
| qwerty12_N800 | X-Fade: I don't have anything to hand :(. I'd like to upload the improved Transmission but source for that is on my comp | 23:30 |
| b-man | :) | 23:30 |
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| X-Fade | qwerty12_N800: Ok, no problem. I just thought you might have had something handy. | 23:30 |
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| GeneralAntilles | yerga, I want those Modest screenies. :P | 23:32 |
| yerga | GeneralAntilles, I want a rx-51 ;) | 23:32 |
| GeneralAntilles | yerga, don't we all. :( | 23:32 |
| yerga | GeneralAntilles, there isn't much to see in the screenshots | 23:32 |
| yerga | it's better play with it | 23:32 |
| * qwerty12_N800 gives yerga a complementary "RX-71" | 23:33 | |
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| yerga | qwerty12_N800, thanks! | 23:33 |
| qwerty12_N800 | hehe :P | 23:33 |
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| GeneralAntilles | I think we need another title for yerga, though. I'm thinking "releaseminer" or maybe "spymaster" | 23:33 |
| qwerty12_N800 | yerga: so give us the debs! :D | 23:33 |
| GeneralAntilles | yerga, have you considered throwing your hat in the ring for Council? | 23:33 |
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| yerga | GeneralAntilles, I dont like administrative work :P | 23:34 |
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| * lcuk likes the work yerga is doing though | 23:34 | |
| yerga | lcuk, thanks | 23:34 |
| yerga | I like your work too | 23:35 |
| yerga | liqbase it's the most advanced app in Maemo ;) | 23:35 |
| woglinde | hihi | 23:35 |
| lcuk | not for long :) | 23:35 |
| GeneralAntilles | Pshaw! Advanced Backlight is the most advanced app in Maemo! :P | 23:36 |
| t_s_o | how is the advanced power daemon started? | 23:36 |
| GeneralAntilles | It's _Advanced_! | 23:36 |
| lcuk | lol gan | 23:36 |
| woglinde | lol | 23:36 |
| * qwerty12_N800 votes for X terminal :p | 23:36 | |
| lcuk | its bloody well is - the work it took to make that dialog sit properly was immense | 23:36 |
| qwerty12_N800 | t_s_o: /etc/init.d/apmd start ? | 23:37 |
| lcuk | it was a hildon secret | 23:37 |
| t_s_o | damn it, how silly of me. i spotted the python thing in htop and didnt expect it to have some much smaller name in init.d... | 23:38 |
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| t_s_o | bah, why is nearly everything i like on the tablet, python based?! | 23:39 |
| qwerty12_N800 | python likes you too | 23:40 |
| lcuk | t_s_o, cos its the glue that binds us | 23:41 |
| lcuk | its vbscript or arexx for maemo | 23:41 |
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| t_s_o | heh, and eats battery like nothing else from the looks of it... | 23:41 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Nah, viruses are made with vbscript | 23:41 |
| lcuk | and a virus is different from corporate policy, how? | 23:42 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, your comment makes no sense. | 23:43 |
| t_s_o | lcuk: meme virus? | 23:43 |
| qwerty12_N800 | which one... | 23:43 |
| GeneralAntilles | qwerty12_N800, about the browser and back. | 23:43 |
| qwerty12_N800 | gathered :) | 23:44 |
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| lcuk | gan, i cannot close the application (with its X) until all other subwindows (which are overlapping the X) are closed | 23:45 |
| GeneralAntilles | Um? | 23:46 |
| GeneralAntilles | Which subwindows? | 23:46 |
| mikkov_ | lcuk, all dialogs have been modal anyway | 23:46 |
| mikkov_ | you have had to close dialogs first | 23:46 |
| lcuk | perhaps dialogs would be the wrong word. a stack of windows relating to an app. main screen then and edit screen for instance. to close the app i would have to first click back, then click close | 23:47 |
| lcuk | some apps may have multiple levels of windows requiring you to go "back" from | 23:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, um, "back"? | 23:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | lcuk, you haven't seen the task switched | 23:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | That's just the Application Menu. | 23:48 |
| GeneralAntilles | Where you launch applications from. | 23:48 |
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| GeneralAntilles | Anyway, applications on Maemo don't use the Windows style of window management. | 23:49 |
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| lcuk | didnt suggest it did, just looks out of place being where it is | 23:50 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | looks fine. only problem i have with it is that it | 23:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | Either I'm not understanding something about what you're saying or you're not understanding something about those screenshots. | 23:50 |
| GeneralAntilles | Oh well. | 23:51 |
| * GeneralAntilles goes to make dinner. | 23:51 | |
| qwerty12_N800 | sometimes grays out even though it can be used | 23:51 |
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| lcuk | yeah qwerty, the stlying is nice now | 23:51 |
| lcuk | i relaly like the dark theme | 23:52 |
| semente | hi! I have a n800 with last OS2008 and I would like know how passwords are stored in Maemo, such the passwords of SIP, Jabber, Mail accounts, etc. | 23:52 |
| qwerty12_N800 | gconf | 23:52 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Grab gconf-editor (in extras for chinook; extras-devel for diablo) and look through | 23:53 |
| qwerty12_N800 | lemme find the key names | 23:53 |
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| qwerty12_N800 | (or gconftool-2 --dump I think works too...) | 23:54 |
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| yerga | lcuk, you are right about the 'back' thing | 23:55 |
| yerga | there is application with diverse screens | 23:55 |
| qwerty12_N800 | semente: /apps/modest/server_accounts - email passwords; /apps/telepathy/mc/accounts - im passwords | 23:55 |
| yerga | and you need go back to the first to close it | 23:55 |
| yerga | I won't say what applications ;) | 23:56 |
| lcuk | :) | 23:56 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Yerga. "The master of suspense." :p | 23:56 |
| lcuk | its easy going "back" with a hardware button though :P | 23:56 |
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| semente | qwerty12_N800: thank you! | 23:58 |
| yerga | I don't know if it'll be useful but gftp is working with pannable areas :) | 23:58 |
| qwerty12_N800 | Hehe, cool :) | 23:58 |
| torkiano | hello all, is there any identi.ca client for maemo (diablo)? | 23:59 |
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