IRC log of #maemo for Thursday, 2009-02-19

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wazdwow, Mer post is on the maemo index already) Nice)00:17
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GeneralAntillesCouncil blog's still broked.00:19
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* Stskeeps wonders idly how HAL ever got popular00:27
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kkrustybenson, did you find any replacement for zonescreen?00:29
bensonkkrusty: Huh? I haven't been looking for one...00:30
* qwerty12_N800 found out why his N800 is treated as a music player in linux after looking at hal - there's an upstream rule to treat 770's & N800's as music players00:30
Stskeepscos of the internal sotrage?00:30
Stskeepser, usb mass storage00:30
kkrustybenson, right. I was just thinking that you were from the forum posting00:30
qwerty12_N800yep :)00:30
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bensonkkrusty: I'm Benson from itT, and I read that thread, but that wasn't my hack...00:31
jakemaheuqwerty, you should remove it00:31
kkrustybenson, right. sorry00:32
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bensonwhat's wrong with zonescreen, anyhow?00:33
qwerty12_N800jakemaheu: yeah, I remember it annoying me a long while back but no idea what caused it because rhythmbox would run when I connected my N800 and then crash but still leave its process hanging around and it made the N800 "un-unmountable" until I killed rhythmbox00:34
kkrustybenson, nothing wrong with it. Im using linux00:34
kkrustybenson, by the way ZoneScreen doesn't encrypt.00:34
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bensonOh, then just set up a dummy screen and use Xinerama should work.00:35
* benson doesn't remember the name of the X driver that uses a virtual framebuffer and no video card.00:35
* benson is pretty sure there was one, though.00:35
bensonBut I have to wonder why... Why not just enable the cursor and use Synergy, starting any  desktop apps needed via ssh -x ?00:36
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jakemaheuhello, skibur00:49
skiburbenson, to speed up Debian on the N800, do I enable CPU on Performance? or CPU on On-Demand?00:50
skiburhello jakemaheu, you have debian on your ITT?00:50
GeneralAntillesInternet Tablet Talk?00:50
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jakemaheuskibur: no, i don't00:51
skiburAny takers?00:51
qwerty12_N800as suggested by the name, performance. but your battery life will go down faster than it does in ondemand (the default mode)00:53
skiburo i c00:54
GeneralAntillesNo wonder Wii Homebrew isn't working . . . I took my SD card out.00:58
GeneralAntillesI need to buy some more cards.00:58
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jakemaheuGeneral: You do Wii homebrew?01:07
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GeneralAntillesjakemaheu, well, I installed it months ago, played ScummVM a bit then haven't looked at it since.01:08
jakemaheuWhat version is your Wii? Mine is 3.2U01:09
GeneralAntillesMy Wii has gone a bit neglected next to my 36001:09
GeneralAntilles3.4, I guess?01:09
GeneralAntillesI just updated it.01:09
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jakemaheubad idea01:10
jakemaheuvery, VERY BAD IDEA01:10
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GeneralAntillesHomebrew channel still launches01:10
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* Stskeeps ponders when johnx will start on the wiimer port01:10
Macorwell... going to shut down this p3 tomorrow01:11
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* Macor sheds a tear for his p301:11
GeneralAntillesI'd use my Wii more if it could output VGA01:11
GeneralAntillesAs it is, I just don't end up in front of a real TV very often these days.01:11
Stskeepsisn't it 640x480? :P01:11
Macorwhat is the res of a wii? 420p?01:12
GeneralAntillesVGA cable01:12
* Stskeeps ponders what the tiny hole beside charger is on the 77001:12
GeneralAntillesFor instance, my 360 is hooked up to the VGA on one of my 20" monitors. ;)01:12
GeneralAntillesNo, it's not a reset button01:12
GeneralAntillesSo don't stick any paperclips in there. :P01:12
Macorthat would probably suck01:12
GeneralAntillesDon't laugh, people have done it. :P01:12
Macorsomeone does everything01:13
* b-man laughs anyways01:13
Stskeepsyou know, 770s could actually be stacked and clustered.. lends more to the theory of used to be run by WSODed 770s01:13
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Stskeepsthey lend themselves a little more to stacking and usb connecting than n800s, for instance01:14
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Guest10834i failed to identify cos you didnt tell me01:15
mavhchow are 770s better at stacking?01:16
qwerty12_N800you failed because you stole someone's nick :p01:16
Guest10834n810 with keyboards out stack really nicely01:16
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Stskeepsmavhc: well, you can stack it and connect with usb, whereas with n800 you have to kick out the stand..01:16
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fireunMacor: there is no room here for bordom01:19
GeneralAntillesGuest10834, if it doesn't I'm throwing a temper tantrum.01:20
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qwerty12_N800I'll launch the nukes!01:21
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fireunneat and strangly obvious01:22
Macorfireun: stuck at work01:22
fireunohh, so sad, stuck with a job01:22
Macorleaving in a cpl hrs tho...just have to set something up01:22
Macorgot laid off or something?01:22
Guest10834GeneralAntilles: but isnt the aim to be rotated and more portraity01:22
Macorblame bush01:23
fireunMacor: it doesnt do any good01:23
fireunI've been doing it for years01:23
GeneralAntillesGuest10834, how do you mean?01:23
Macori dont mind my job01:23
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MaceG1just... im off tomorrow for a week so today seems to be the watched tea pot01:24
Guest10834arent the rotation bugs marked as fixed in fremantle, and doesnt clutter allow orientation flips on the fly etc01:24
fireunMaceG1: then keep yer bordom to yer self (:01:24
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GeneralAntillesGuest10834, the default mode is going to be landscape.01:25
GeneralAntillesClutter really doesn't have anything to do with orientation.01:25
GeneralAntillesand I'm not actually sure rotation is going to be a part of Fremantle.01:26
Guest10834how do you know?01:26
Guest10834and clutter does, because it just uses a rotated actor01:26
Guest10834you dont know any more than me or (most) others in the chan surely?01:27
* Guest10834 is "speculating"01:27
wazdlet's speculate!01:28
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MaceG1i need to see if there is an android update when i get home01:32
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MaceG1i am pretty sure there is one. maybe the open one has a2dp now01:33
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GeneralAntillesGuest10834, rotation involves the XServer and the kernel.01:34
Guest10834or opengl and no x updates01:35
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GeneralAntillesNot everything uses Clutter01:35
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GeneralAntillesso just rotating Clutter doesn't really help.01:35
GeneralAntillesI know because I tend to pay attention to as many things Maemo as I can. :)01:35
Guest10834unless x is rerouted through clutter01:35
qwerty12_N800Isn't clutter just a framework? if your plain gtk app was run through clutter, surely you'd get a performance hit01:36
Guest10834dunno, isnt the same thing said about using opengl as a compositing manager?01:37
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Guest10834the speedups by using hardware rendering makes it worthwhile?01:37
Guest10834anyway, thats for another day01:37
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jaemgood morning\01:40
jaemI happen to have an excess of N810 car mounts.  What would be a reasonable price for them, mint in baggies?01:40
fireunfell off a truck, eh?01:41
jaemNokia shipped me a new N810 after the warranty shipment went afoul, and didn't ask for the accessories of the original back01:41
jaemand I don't have a car01:41
fireunbike mount?01:42
jaemI don't have a bike01:42
jaemor a Segway01:42
fireunwhat do you do? walk!?01:42
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jaemI could probably afford a Fisher Price roller skate01:42
fireunI couldnt01:42
jaemfireun: no, we have decent transit around my Uni01:42
jaemfireun: I meant *one* roller skate ;)01:42
jaemour tuition gets us a sweet deal on transit passes01:43
fireunyeah, that would be nice - seems almost required, living next to school that is.01:43
fireunbut it costs more01:43
GeneralAntilleslol . . . Clutter01:44
jaemwell, $90 CAD gets us unlimited transit on the buses, water-taxi-things, and the elevated train01:44
jaemfor four months01:44
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* timeless sighs01:53
timelesscrash-reporter strings are funny01:53
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luke-jrhow do I actually put the microSD card in the N810? :/02:06
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jaemluke-jr: you'll need a mini-SD adapter02:07
jaemit looks like a mini-SD card, but has a receptacle for a micro-SD card02:07
jaemmost micro cards come with them02:07
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jaemif yours didn't, well, SD cards are fairly cheap (I can get a half-decent 2GB for $7 CAD)02:08
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luke-jrI just got the 4 GB microSD for $1002:10
jaemit doesn't have an adapter, then?02:11
luke-jrsupposedly SanDisk doesn't do adapters02:11
jaemare you in the US/Canada?02:11
luke-jrbut only this one was on sale I think02:11
wazdwow, we have 8gig SD for 30 bucks :(02:11
jaemcheck out or respectively02:11
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luke-jrjaem: why?02:11
jaemthey're usually the best deals around, on good stuff02:11
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jaemI do all my shopping there02:12
jaemeven groceries!02:12
jaemokay, kidding there02:12
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jaembut they make the chain stores look like complete ripoffs02:12
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jaemwazd: I tried out ATI85 today (just got my tablet back), and it looks great02:14
luke-jrwtf, miniSD costs more? :/02:14
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jaema miniSD might02:14
luke-jrjaem: I don't think they're around here02:14
jaemtry a microSD - they come with adapters02:14
luke-jrI just bought a microSD and they don't02:15
jaemluke-jr: wait for a sale, then - sometimes they have $5 shipping, if your order a certain amount02:15
jaemmost of the ones I've seen on that site do02:15
luke-jrI don't want to wait a day02:15
luke-jrand $5 shipping is way too much02:16
luke-jrcalled the store, $15 for 4 GB miniSD02:16
jaem:( I can understand that, but FWIW:
luke-jrbbiab I guess ☹)02:16
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neatojonesis hildon-desktop the command needed to start hildon?02:21
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wazdjaem: thanks)02:23
wazd <- you can vote or discuss if you like :)02:23
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jaemon a side note, and out of curiousity, does anyone make patterned N-series cling-on skins?  (I like the brushed finish, myself, but it would be interesting)02:28
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wazddunno, got this contest by chance :)02:34
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neatojonesDoes anyone know what the command to start hildon from a terminal?03:18
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fred23Hi everybody !  I've got a general question :  Is 'gdbserver' from the maemo repositories ... thread-capable ?  I'm having the hardest time remote-debugging simple multi-threaded piece of code on the N810 running maemo... Maybe gdbserver is not thread-enabled.... any hint ?03:42
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timelessfred23: um03:49
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timelessat various times i've had luck using gdbserver w/ gecko03:49
timelesswhich is threaded03:49
timelessand at times, i've had no luck03:49
fred23but basically, you don't recall gdbserver having a specific thread-related bug...03:50
fred23timeless: but basically, you don't recall gdbserver having a specific thread-related bug...03:51
timelessi think i do, but i don't remember which versions of which pieces were to blamek, and certainly not which repositories03:51
timelesspersonally, i'd basically build gdb6.6 and gdb6.8 and ignore the repos03:51
timelessyou may have slightly better luck w/ 6.603:51
fred23yeah.. I'm currently using 6.803:52
fred23think I'll try that...see what I get03:52
luke-jr/dev/mmcblk0p1 on /media/mmc2 type vfat (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,noatime,nodiratime,uid=29999,fmask=0133,dmask=0000,codepage=cp437,iocharset=iso8859-1,shortname=mixed,utf8)03:54
luke-jr/dev/mmcblk0p1 on /media/mmc1 type vfat (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,uid=29999,fmask=0133,dmask=0000,codepage=cp437,iocharset=iso8859-1,shortname=mixed,utf8)03:54
fred23timeless: sorry... one last thing... Is gdbserver packaged with gdb ? Or it got its own sources and repos ?03:54
luke-jrhow is this possible? :x03:54
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timelessgo straight to, you build gdb+gsbserver together03:54
timelessand you really want to use the exact pair03:55
fred23ah ! you got it ! thanx03:55
luke-jrhow is /dev/mmcblk0p1 mounted twice? :x03:56
luke-jrand why is there no kismet port? :x03:57
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* timeless frowns04:14
timelessanyone here have any complaints about my strings? :)04:14
timelessneato_jones: what language do you use your device in?04:15
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neato_jonesEnglish, US04:16
timelessif you enable extras-devel, you'll find a package which replaces the English US strings04:16
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GAN800timeless, yes.04:16
GAN800But they're all personal. :P04:16
timeless(you can't safely remove it, but hopefully you won't mind)04:16
neato_jonesI'm running Mer anyway. :)04:18
bjvi was thinking about reflashing my 770, it seems to get buggy after a while04:18
timelesswell, it should work in mer too04:19
bjvand then i noticed on the wikipedia page a link to a memory corruption patch?04:19
timeless(mostly, some minor issues)04:19
bjvapparently only recent 2007hacker editions dont need the patch04:19
bjvand looking for the kernel module the patch deploys, i dont see such a file on my os200604:19
bjvi thought i had the most recent nokia blessed 770 os, though.04:20
bjvshould i move to the 'hacker edition' just for stability?04:20
bjvany 770 owners here?04:20
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Shadow__Xhey anyone else having an issue trying to update canola and carman07:14
Macerwhat a farce!.. they are almost like communism07:23
doc|homeMacer: communism requires force. No one is requiring you to use GPL etc07:25
neatojonesIf I'm using Mer, and I want to have swap for my N810 external should it be listed as /dev/mmcblk1pX or /dev/mmcblk0pX in fstab? I tried /dev/mmcblk1p2 (for external part 2, but it didn't seem to work)07:28
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Mouseyyah, i never understood the "gpl is restrictive" argument07:29
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Macer:) i was just joking. they had a big argument in here about the gpl and lgpl a couple days ago.. it cracked me up07:44
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Shadow__Xanyone having issues updating conola2 and carman07:50
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Shadow__Xanyone use canola 2 here08:13
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fireunonly for frying fish08:25
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jaemhello again08:32
jaemwhen installing Mer 0.8 from the tarball, on the internal MMC of an N810, how do you add it to the bootmenu list manually?08:32
jaemI think I've done this before, but not in a while...08:32
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jaemactually, more to the point, is there any documentation on the new bootmenu anywhere?  I didn't see much08:35
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fireunI would try again earlier in the day08:41
fireunroom goes idle around this time08:41
jaemah - fair enough08:41
jaemdarn - I'd like to try Mer08:42
jaemI suppose I could just unpack the auto-install deb and muck around with the shell scripts until I figure it out08:42
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* jaem will try that08:42
neatojonesjaem: which bootmenu did you use?08:44
jaemwhichever comes with console-tools08:44
jaemthe info seems to be scattered across the forums/irc/general-interwebs, and it's rather confusing as to what is relevant to any given version08:45
neatojonesjaem:  hmm.  I haven't used that one in a while.  isn't there a command like pb-easy08:45
neatojonesor something08:45
jaemyes, I used the pb command08:45
neatojonesmaybe type pb08:45
jaembut Mer comes as an auto-installer, or a tarball08:45
neatojonesthe two are separate commands.  One of them will install it automatically.08:45
jaemthey only install the bootmenu08:46
neatojonesMer uses an auto-installer to install a tarball08:46
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neatojonesif you use the auto-installer, I think it requires you to install a version of bootmenu08:46
jaembut I wanted to manually install it with my own partitioning setup == manual install08:46
neatojonesyou can do that.  I think it's the only way that it actually works.08:46
neatojonesI tried it the other way and it crashes.08:47
neatojonesif you have your partitions already made, just fire up the installer08:47
jaemdoes it give you the option?  I suppose I should have tried first... my apologies08:47
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jaemI thought "auto" meant "auto"08:47
neatojonesyou can choose simple or advanced08:48
neatojonesselect advanced08:48
neatojonesand it will then ask if you want to partition or if you want to keep your own partitions08:48
jaemsimilar to Deblet?  I can do that, then08:48
neatojonesit then asks if you want to format.  if you format, it crashes the installer for me.08:48
neatojonesso, format then run the installer08:48
neatojonesalso, I had to select a fat partition or the installer crashed, but it didn't really seem to care if it was really a fat partition or not.08:49
jaemdoes console-tools install the same bootmenu that the Mer installer does?08:49
jaemwait... fat for / ?08:49
neatojonesit works a different way whn it set it up, but has the same purpose08:49
neatojonesI don't know.  I think it's in case you want to have a fat partition.  I don't use one either.  It works fine08:50
jaemare there any docs on either bootmenu?  I'd like to know how to set up custom items, or fix any borkage, but I haven't found much clear info08:50
neatojonesjust search iTT.08:51
jaemI have been... I was just hoping it was consolidated somewhere >_<08:51
neatojonesNope.  Not that I know of. SOrry08:51
neatojonesTheir both a little buggy too.  Just do your best08:52
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* hahlo wonders why all the arms couldn't be mutually same like the x86s are09:11
qgil_afkjeremiah: it's just me or doesn't appear aggregated at ?09:11
johnxhahlo, what makes you think they aren't?09:12
hahlolike to run arm lenny in phone09:14
johnxand why can't you?09:14
hahloi don't know doesn't seem to boot09:15
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johnxwell how are you trying to boot it?09:16
hahlogot bootloader called wlilo.exe09:18
hahloseems like it needs omap branch kernel09:19
johnxaaaah, ok, now I see what you mean: from a kernel perspective09:19
johnxindividual ARM SoCs are more different from each other than x86 chipsets/motherboards09:21
hahloyes thats what i mean09:22
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johnxx86 chipsets/mobos have compatibility so they can run DOS. ARM SoCs have nothing like that to force vendors to maintain compatibility09:25
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qgil_afkdo you see aggregated in Planet Maemo or appearing at
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StsN800qgil_afk, there was some issue not even community council blogs were aggreated09:46
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aquatixmorning all10:01
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RST38hmoo all10:10
jaemhey RST38h10:10
Stskeepsmorn jaem - so you succeeded with the tablet delivery?10:11
olimorning :)10:11
jaemyes, actually - I got the tracking number this morning, and it was already here by the time I read the e-mail10:11
jaemso, I'm pretty happy10:11
Stskeepswasn't it you with the UPS charge or how was it?10:11
Stskeepsand the broken internal MMC10:12
jaemyep again10:12
jaemthis is actually a recurring circumstance for me... I buy something expensive, it breaks, the warranty gets messed up somehow, I spend a week on the phone, and I get something good out of it10:13
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jaemusually an upgrade, in the past, although this time they just didn't ask for the old accessories back, so I have a spare battery, etc.10:13
aquatixjaem: well, at least it works out for the best :)10:13
jaemat least Nokia is pleasant to deal with, even when they're unhelpful10:13
jaemI've been trying to set up Mer while watching a movie...10:14
jaemit won't boot - just crashes before the splash - is that a known issue?  I didn't see it on the release page10:14
Stskeepser, didn't we have a odd issue before too?10:15
Stskeepsand define "before the splash"10:15
Stskeepsbefore the pretty mer logo?10:15
jaemyes - the last thing I see is the Nokia logo with the "booting from..." message, and then it crashes10:16
Stskeepsok, and you installed the bootmenu and then utilities->install bootmenu, right?10:17
Stskeepsbefore installing mer10:17
jaemand it is installed10:17
Stskeepsdid you use simple or advanced install?10:17
jaemadvanced - I'd already partitioned/formatted with console-tools10:17
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Stskeepscan i see your /etc/bootmenu.d item?10:19
jaemone sec10:19
neatojonesmine did that too.10:20
neatojoneshe needs to change the /dev/mmcblkXpX10:20
neatojonesit gets it wrong for some reason10:20
jaemno, it seems to be correct10:20
jaemlet me doublecheck10:20
neatojonesmind is backwards.10:21
neatojonestry switching it and see if it works10:21
Stskeepsneatojones: there shouldn't be any mmcblkwhatever in it10:21
Stskeepsif there is, b-man has a bug. it should write ${INT_CARD} or ${EXT_CARD}10:22
neatojonesfor some reason.  My Mer wants to load with the /dev/mmcblk0p1 and /dev/mmcblk0p2 is the swap even though it ought to be a 1 instead of 010:22
neatojonesyeah, I noticed that too10:22
neatojonesit was that way before for deblet.  Now with the version used for mer it sticks the mmcblk part in there instead10:22
neatojonesnot sure why.  Just know how to fix it10:22
Stskeepswe had a problem in the installer at first regarding internal/external detection10:23
Stskeepsit should be fixed now10:23
Stskeepsbut it definately shouldn't put mmcblk in the items10:23
Stskeepsjaem: can i see it?10:23
jaemthe installer switch is fixed10:23
jaemsts: sorry - one sec10:23
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SaBerHi, does anyone know how to get the launch feedback to display (Appname - Loading)  when starting up a Qt application?10:27
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jaemneatojones: I'm using the internal card10:28
jaembut thanks10:28
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neatojonescheck your fstab too10:30
neatojonesmaybe its mounting something wrong10:30
Stskeepsjaem: yeah, it should be ${INT_CARD} instead of mmcblk010:30
Stskeepsalso make sure p2 is actually the ext3 partition10:31
jaemI'll try that, and, it is10:31
neatojonesI think the new version is mixing something up and though it should be ${INT_CARD}, I bet mmcblk1 would work10:31
neatojonesit's backwards for some reason.10:32
Stskeepsjaem: and then refresh_bootmenu.d10:33
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neatojonesDo they make blue-tooth mice?  I'd assume so...10:35
jaemsts: thanks - that works10:35
jaemneatojones: yes, but I can't think of any off the top of my head10:35
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neatojonesDoes suspend work in Mer?  I'm too scared to try it.10:37
Stskeepser, no clue, don't think so :P10:37
SaBerneatojones: I can recommend the logitech v47010:38
Stskeepsneatojones: suspend is many things, what do you mean exactyl?10:38
neatojonesthe little logout that is available from most window managers like gnome, kde, xfce10:38
neatojonesprobably suspend to hard drive10:38
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neatojoneswhatever that means...10:39
jaemas in, hibernate?10:39
neatojoneswhen you have none10:39
jaemdoes Mer have that feature?10:39
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Stskeepsdoubt it, our kernel doesn't exactly lend itself to it10:39
neatojoneshildon def. doesn't10:39
SoccertiesI'm considering reflashing my n800 to diablo but can't find any info on how navicore runs under diablo, anyone here have some insight10:40
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StskeepsSoccerties: probably as decent or more than on the former version..10:41
jaemStskeeps: I was curious about something...10:41
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Stskeepsjaem: mm?10:41
jaemI remember reading in the Maemo bugzilla that TI didn't approve of the kernel patch regarding the MMC slot, included in the rotation kernel, and said that (in theory) it could cause borkage10:42
jaemI have no reason to suspect it, but come to think of it, my internal MMC did die shortly after installing that... I'm not saying that's the problem, but I thought I should throw that out there10:42
jaemit was otherwise out of the blue10:43
jaemis that a possibility?10:43
Soccertiesthanks Stskeeps, anyone here use the linuxMCE orbiter under diablo10:43
Stskeepsjaem: hmm.10:43
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jaemthey said it was operating out of spec...10:43
Stskeepsjaem: as in, nokia said so or?10:43
Stskeepswith your device10:43
jaemI believe TI said it, as quoted by a Nokia rep - you can check the bugzilla10:44
jaembeing an engineering student, operating a chip out of spec doesn't sound like a good idea to me10:44
Stskeepswell might be worth posting about on iTT, fanoush would probably pick up on it10:44
jaemso I'm somewhat concerned10:44
Stskeepsthen again being an engineering, operating something out of spec to make it push that extra inch..10:45
JaffaMorning, all10:45
qwerty12That mode has always been unsupported by Ti though, it says in the kernel code. When you make it run at a higher speed, it's generally assumed that you take the risk.10:45
Stskeepsmorning Jaffa10:45
jaemI just didn't want some idiot to start telling everyone that Maemo/Fanoush/whoever is "wrecking tablets", or some such thin10:45
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jaemso I was hesitant to post it10:45
jaempeople tend to sensationalize things like that10:46
Stskeepsjaem: nah - but i would have asked you to reflash kernel if you had told me back then10:46
jaembut if you think so, I'll post it (with caveats)10:46
jaemwell, I did10:46
Stskeepsand it still failed?10:46
jaemand the card was definitely toast10:46
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Stskeepswell post one about a curious occurence of the internal MMC actually dying10:47
jaemfresh flash10:47
jaemokay - sure10:47
Stskeepsand state your theory10:47
Stskeepsit might help fix some of the patches for n810 i guess10:47
Stskeepsbecause i have actually never heard of internal MMC dying before10:47
jaemwilldo, after my show is over10:47
jaemwell, neither have I10:47
jaembut if it has a non-zero possibility of occurence, I could have been the unlucky one10:48
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qwerty12SaBer, make a /usr/share/dbus-1/services/<name of program>.service (example here: and put an "X-Osso-Service=" field in your desktop file and give it the same name you gave in your dbus service file. Then learn how to osso_initialize and put that in your code to stop that program being killed.10:49
Stskeepsjaem: you have mer running now, btw?10:49
Stskeepson a n81010:49
neatojonesI tried that high speed kernel and it messed up a few files on my drive10:50
qwerty12SaBer, after that, you'll get a starting notification10:50
neatojonesI have a class 6 micro SD too10:50
neatojonesso, I quit using it10:50
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neatojonesI blamed the kernel anyway.  Never had any problems other than that10:50
jaemsts: yes, just thinking of a root pw - I'll have it up in a minute10:51
SaBerqwerty12: ok thanks, I'll take a look at that10:51
Stskeepsjaem: if so, can you do me a favour and apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade, and restart, and tell me if Fn starts working10:51
Stskeepswe have been struggling with HAL and my sshable n810 says the right thing now but .. :P10:52
jaemgladly - that was actually the first thing I was going to do anyways10:52
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qwerty12Stskeeps, did you test mer3 on x86 and zaurus successfully?10:52
Stskeepsqwerty12: yeah, i think we're on mer4 now..10:53
qwerty12o rly10:53
qwerty12What fucked up?10:53
Stskeeps10-x11-keymaps.fdi is fucking nasty10:53
Stskeepsbasically HAL callouts are done after FDI gathering information10:53
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Stskeepsand this particular one, designed to sync console keyboard info and X info, overwrote anything FDI information had provided10:54
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jaemsts, qwerty: is Fn supposed to work on Mer 0.8?10:54
Stskeepsdebian-setup-keyboard, obviously10:54
Stskeepsjaem: yes, after this apt-get update; apt-get dist-upgrade :P10:54
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qwerty12jaem, supposed to after running something but I don't know how :)10:54
Stskeepsotherwise you need to do a trick (setxkbmap -model nokiarx44 -layout us) :P10:54
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Stskeepsthis HAL thing makes it autodetect now10:54
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Stskeepsrzr: i have a 770 now so i hope i can improve things :)10:55
jaemah - that makes sense, but autodetect is important ;)10:55
qwerty12I went digging through a horrible diff so we could have autodetect :/10:55
Stskeepsqwerty12: we could probabably have had it earlier but stupid 10-x11-keymap.fdi10:56
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qwerty12I needed the hal autodetection for powerlaunch anyway10:56
wazdmorning everybody)10:57
Stskeepsmorning wazd10:57
jaemmorning wazd10:57
jaemsts: just looking up my WPA key, and then I'll be good to go10:58
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qwerty12Stskeeps, is there any harm in making tablet wireless rmmod cx3110x anyway - strictly speaking, isn't "if [ x$DEBLET_RUN_FROM_LINUXRC = 'x' ]; then " outdated as you have the incompatible bootmenu message?10:59
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Stskeepsqwerty12: hmm. lemme just see that code11:00
qwerty12To get wireless working, I have to remove that if statement and make the modprobe into an insmod. I'd suggest just making modprobe line into modprobe || insmod11:01
Stskeepsi don't understand why the modprobe fails.. when i build the images i do actually have a fake inits11:01
Stskeeps.. initfs11:01
jaemqwerty12: is the N810's keyboard stow/unstow switch supposed to show/hide the on-screen-kbd?11:02
qwerty12Meiz pointed me to it last time and he was right, I edited it before I booted 0.8 and it worked with network-manager11:02
Stskeepsqwerty12: feel free to submit a patch to bzr :P11:03
qwerty12jaem, I don't think so, the h-i-m plugin available is pretty lacking :/11:03
qwerty12Stskeeps, will do, would be nice not having to edit it with each release :)11:03
Stskeeps  bzr branch lp:~mer-committers/m-r/tablet-wireless11:03
Stskeepsit should do it based on `uname -r` though11:04
qwerty12It really doesn't and I know mine is still 2.6.21-omap1 :)11:05
qwerty12well, "doesn't" for me11:05
wazd <- vote if you like :) Now!11 :)11:06
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qwerty12I have to register *cries*11:06
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wazdhate these systems11:07
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jaemsts: upgrading...11:07
qwerty12I hate it when they put the UK at the top, I instinctively go to the bottom...11:07
qwerty12wazd, voted11:08
wazdqwerty12: thaaaanks! :)11:08
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qwerty12Stskeeps, grr, you didn't tell me I'd need ssh keys, I don't usually use them :P11:10
qwerty12(insecure bastard that I am)11:10
hahloofftopic does anyone know place where to camplaint pc-suite :P11:10
Stskeepstrust me, you'll need them :P11:10
jeremiahlcuk: ping11:12
Stskeepsoh, neat, i just got my windows to share its internet connection with my 77011:12
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hahlodual core winblows went to its knees when run pc-suite which started 3 copies of it :P11:13
qwerty12hahlo, pc suite takes time on my brother's laptop when one is running :P11:14
hahloyes it is awful11:15
qwerty12Oh. I do have ssh keys already there. Probably from the time when I needed them for extras uploading :/11:16
jaemwhat is "pc-suite"?11:16
qwerty12Nokia PC Suite for their phones, does file transfer and syncing and installation of apps and some other things11:17
jaemoh right11:17
* Stskeeps stares at 77011:19
Stskeepswlan0 -and- wlan1? :P11:19
qwerty12You'd think with two interfaces that it wouldn't be allergic to n signals...11:19
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qwerty12Stskeeps, before I commit, does this look ok:
jaemsts: Mer boots fine after dist-upgrade11:22
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jaemalthough, on shutdown, there is a graphics glitch where a cursor blinks overtop of the shutdown splash11:22
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Stskeepsjaem: yeah..11:23
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Stskeepsqwerty12: yes11:23
Stskeepsqwerty12: and now to generate a source package, make a directory and bzr export DESTDIR WHERE-YOUR-CHECKOUT-IS11:24
Stskeepsand cd DESTDIR; dpkg-buildpackage -S -us -uc11:24
qwerty12I thought I was just commiting?11:24
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Stskeepsyeah, well, you are welcome to generate a new version too and put it up11:24
wazdRST38h: hola11:24
qwerty12You want me to upload to the builder?11:24
Stskeepssaves me time and gives you an valuable lesson11:25
RST38hhey wazd11:25
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RST38h"...And J. Edgar Hoover's FBI found itself quietly consumed with the vexing question of whether Valenti was gay."11:30
qwerty12Stskeeps, committed. Wow, that really didn't take long to pick up. :)11:30
RST38h(yes, MPAA Valenti)11:30
jaemum... where's that quote from?11:31
timelessask google?11:31
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Stskeepsok, so WPA2 does work on 770 .. but the wifi scanner is a bit fucky11:35
Stskeepsrzr: if you want wifi on your 770 mer it is fairly simple11:36
Stskeepsbut i use wpa_supplicant fori t11:36
rzri dont have it anymore11:37
rzrsome of my friend took it w/ it at WMC11:37
rzranyway nice trick for the wifi , i'll test it when i got it back11:38
rzrnow i am busy w/ openmoko
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Stskeepssaw some of wazd's mockups?11:38
Stskeepsthey are intentionally made for the openmoko formfactor so11:39
Stskeepser, freerunner11:39
timelessgood day11:40
Stskeepsmorning timeless11:40
wazdtimeless: hola11:41
jaemhey, timeless11:42
rzr<Stskeeps> saw some of wazd's mockups?11:43
rzrno , do you have some links ?11:43
X-FadeJaffa, GeneralAntilles: Feed issue fixed.11:43
jaemrzr: , to start11:43
StskeepsX-Fade: now there's a double community highlights11:44
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X-FadeStskeeps: yeah, I'll try to wipe one ;)11:44
Stskeepsnot that seeing GA's smiling face twice doesn't light up your day, but ..11:44
X-FadeDon't want GA to karma whore on two articles at the same time.11:45
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rzrjaem: i dont see anything on om devices ?11:46
qwerty12Stskeeps, tablet-wireless should be binary-indep too...11:47
jaemI misread what you said11:47
Stskeepsqwerty12: yeah, some of them are in need of cleanu11:47
Stskeepsrzr: , 640x480 layout11:47
qwerty12Want me to do tablet-wireless?11:47
Stskeepsqwerty12: if you're bored11:47
qwerty12Shouldn't take me long, I've been getting practice in :/11:48
rzrStskeeps: ok , i was on this page too11:48
rzrStskeeps: what about the opposite , FSO on tablets ?11:49
Stskeepsrzr: openembedded.. and mamona was based on that and it seems to have taken quite a long time for them11:50
timelesssts: thoughts on my ramblings?11:50
timelessjaem: there's a new 1.1.2pre langpack11:50
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Stskeepstimeless: the one at 3am last night? :P11:50
timelessdunno if it works, it needs testing11:50
timelessyeah that one11:50
Stskeepsreplied in msg when i woke up :P no particular views, was based on something i noticed when i copied over the internal MMC of a n810 and thought was curious, but i am in no way an ogg evangelist (.. except when i was 16) and yeah, your arguments make sense11:51
jaemtimeless: yes...?11:52
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timelesssts: k, i only really read my scrollback if i know i need to (i just checked and found your reply)11:56
timelessfwiw, i was personally annoyed when i found it11:56
timelessas i expected it would undermine the nokia view11:56
timelessit's not wrong, but it's definitely harder11:56
timelessit confuses the issue11:56
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timelessas it happens, i'm neither a fan of the format nor a fan of the lawyers opinion of the format11:57
infobot_timeless meant: as it happens, i'm neither a fan of the format nor a fan of the lawyers' opinion of the format11:57
Stskeepsright, so, is there a known issue that scanning while being associated messes up 770 wifi connections?11:57
* timeless shrugs11:58
Stskeeps(not specifically asking you :P)11:58
Stskeepsqwerty12: does wifi-radar and such use wpa_supplicant?11:58
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qwerty12Stskeeps, wifi-radar is horrible, I avoided it. But I'm pretty sure wicd does.11:59
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qwerty12With wifi-radar, I couldn't even connect to a network because I wasn't able to enter my details because it ran so slow. wicd worked well, and it has a decent interface. Only thing was that it would insist on reconnecting until I told it not to reconnect12:02
qwerty12s/reconnecting/reconnecting when I was connected/12:02
infobot_qwerty12 meant: With wifi-radar, I couldn't even connect to a network because I wasn't able to enter my details because it ran so slow. wicd worked well, and it has a decent interface. Only thing was that it would insist on reconnecting when I was connected until I told ...12:02
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Stskeepsmm, but is wicd girlfriend friendly12:04
qwerty12Once the network details were inputted, it'd automatically connect with no input every time I rebooted. Only thing is that it doesn't seem to have an applet, you have to run its manager program manually to see the status.12:06
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eichihello, is there no way to sync a maemo calendar app with a linux calendar app? if not, what could be the easyiest apps to code a sync app? maybe i will take a try...some ideas?12:15
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neatojonesI tried out gpe-mininet yesterday.  It worked fine, but didn't support WPA keys12:18
neatojonesit basically was the gpe version of nm-applet12:18
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* timeless grumbles12:20
timelesshow is a guy supposed to find a picture of peanut butter?12:20
neatojonestake one12:21
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jaemthat's one of those "it's obvious, it should have been invented years ago, and it will only ever be sold to fools on infomercials" products ;)12:22
jaembut still, kind of neat12:22
jaemnot quite up there with the titanium spork, though (although apparently those wreck some types of dishes)12:23
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SaBerhummm.. Any tips on debugging applicatin startup? I made .service and .desktop files for my app, but now it wont start. I've checked them many times, but can't find out what's wrong...12:25
neatojonesi restarted nm-applet and despite many restarts, it never has showed back up on the system tray12:26
neatojonesmakes me wanna break something12:26
qwerty12You sure that the Name & X-Osso-Service fields match? And that the Exec field in your service is correct?12:26
Stskeepsjesus, there's a lot of OS2007HE bugs12:26
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qwerty12Name as in the Name field in your service file12:26
SaBerqwerty12: yes, I've checked them many times :(12:27
qwerty12odd :/12:27
qwerty12Usually what happens is that your program will start but then get killed after 60s as you forget to osso_initialize it :P12:27
timelesssaber: do you have a dbus service?12:28
timelessif you run your app from the shell12:28
timeless(xterm/ssh), does it survive? and can you speak to it via dbus?12:28
SaBertimeless: running it from the shell works fine12:29
SaBertimeless: I'm only using this dbus stuff to get launch feedback :P12:30
jeremiahMmm peanutbutter12:30
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qgiljeremiah: about I think it's a bit confusing12:32
jaemrather sensationalist12:32
jaem4th paragraph12:32
qgilThere is a security team in Maemo working on the security of the OS itself12:32
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qgilcommunity feedback welcome but I guess they are covering more or less the field12:33
qgilwhat still needs to be discussed at a community level though12:33
jeremiahqgil: Where is there info on the security team?12:33
qgilis how to make sure that developers are aware of security issues12:33
timelessjeremiah: so, you have two accounts12:33
qwerty12SaBer, hmm, try adding "X-Osso-Type=application/x-executable" to your desktop file12:34
timelesswhich makes my life painful12:34
timelessdo you need both? :)12:34
jeremiahtimeless: Not that I know of12:34
jeremiahAnd no, I only need one. :)12:34
qgiland how to have a process making sure that apps promoted to extras are found to be secure12:34
X-FadeI would really like to see that the repositories are at least at a higher level of security than some random repo.12:34
X-FadeFor this we would need to actively maintain and follow up on issues.12:35
jeremiahqgil: So what is the Maemo security and is it separate from internal Nokia?12:35
timelessandre__: see, please collapse his other one :)12:35
qgillet me find links12:35
X-Fadejeremiah: Everything Maemo (capital M) is Maemo software inside Nokia.12:35
timelessstrange link12:35
jeremiahqgil: thanks, reading . . .12:35
jeremiahqgil: Yeah, I saw that.12:36
X-Fadejeremiah: That are the guys I introduced you to.12:36
jeremiahBut it does not really address things like policy.12:36
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jaemgoodnight, #maemo12:36
jeremiahWhat happens if an app in extras provides priviledge escalation?12:36
jeremiahCan you ban it?12:37
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X-Fadejeremiah: You can remove it.12:37
X-Fadejeremiah: But there is no policy for that.12:37
timelessx-fade: removing it means that all current victims remain?12:37
Stskeepsmaybe a flagging system could be interesting too, kinda like portaudit on freebsd..12:37
X-Fadetimeless: Sure, we don't have any evil kill switches ;)12:37
X-Fadetimeless: The only thing we can do is offer an update.12:38
timelessthat'd be better12:38
jeremiahBut isn't this something that Antti pointed to? That there is a lack of clarity?12:38
jeremiahAround security policy?12:38
StskeepsHAM could pop up a message saying "you might have insecure applications" :P12:38
timelessavs afaiu is the internal contact12:38
timelesssts: grr12:38
jeremiahAnd kill switches seem truly evil in a community like this12:38
timelessham already has enough messages12:38
timelessone more will kill me12:38
jaem_afkit would be nice to have a more elegant method than messages12:39
qwerty12Stskeeps, please don't suggest that, even in a joking manner. :P12:39
Stskeepsqwerty12: well it checks updates anyway.. why not also pop up Clippy and say "I see you have the following applications installed, which has been marked as as insecure.."12:40
Stskeeps(pardon my bad grammar)12:40
jaem_afksts: no, pop clippy up and have him say "I see that you have an insecure application.  would you like me to enable root ssh login?"  - that's more his style12:40
qgiljeremiah: so any progress on security for community apps should be build on top of those 2 URLs12:41
qwerty12Heh, I guess I'm just a person who finds Nokia's disclaimer annoying in HAM and takes steps to remove it ;)12:41
Stskeeps"Would you like to A) remove them B) keep them or C) let them battle in an arena"12:41
jeremiahqgil: Right. That make sense.12:41
jaem_afksts: C), like ?12:41
jaem_afkwait... nvm12:41
Stskeepsjaem_afk: yes, i have occasionally considered that12:41
jeremiahqgil: I just worry about software in the repos that might be rootkits and what to do about it.12:42
jaem_afkI have too... but the LCD would be too expensive12:42
qgiland any proposals about improving the security of Maemo (the OS) should be dealt through enhancement requests in for instance12:42
timelessjaem: nice12:42
qgiljeremiah: if you worry about unsecure software in the repos, imagine Nokia  :)12:42
jeremiahqgil: Precisely.12:42
Stskeepsjeremiah: 'rootsh' is about as much of a rootkit as you can get :P12:42
timelessor .desktop files12:42
* timeless grumbles12:42
qgilthe way to deal with this is to concentrate on extras and the filters to get there12:43
timelesswho needs packages when you can just send people .desktop files12:43
qwerty12timeless, but you need to be root to add them :>12:43
jeremiahqgil: That seems like the right approach, but I would want to be open and explicit about why a package does, or does not get in.12:43
timelessqwerty: we don't run .desktop files?12:44
jeremiahIf it fails some sort of filter, that cannot seem to be arbitrary12:44
qgilX-Fade: actually this discussion is very timely since the alpha SDK is around the corner (well, in few weeks) and it will contain everything for developers to start populating a fremantle repo12:44
qgiljeremiah: sure, a community process needs to be documented and be open for anybody to watch and judge12:44
qwerty12timeless, well, sh -c example.desktop doesn't really work. They're parsed by hildon-desktop12:44
SaBerqwerty12: it seems the "deprecated" third parameter to osso_initialize has to be set to false :(  But now it finally works \o/12:44
jaem_afkjeremiah: I would agree, as not doing so goes with "kill-switch" in the 'too-Apple-ish" category12:45
qwerty12SaBer, heh, w00t!12:45
jeremiahjaem_afk: Exactly.12:45
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qgilso to make sure we get the same picture:12:45
qgilNokia would not go to extras and remove an app12:46
qgilNokia would expect that the community process has prevented unsecure apps from appearing there12:46
qgiland if there has been a mistake, there is also a community process to remove an app from there12:46
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jaem_notafk...would it be possible to notify the user only when they try to run the offending app?  Thus preventing random notifications, but still getting the job done?12:47
jeremiahSo I ought to be discussing a repo filtering process rather than a security process?12:47
qgilthen Nokia can help by discussing the security criteria, funding whatever tools need to be implemented and put some resources that would help on watching new apps willing to get promoted to extras12:47
timelessjaem: too kill switchy12:48
qgiljeremiah: well, I don't see the thin line12:48
timelessor too spy'y12:48
timelesssomeone would complain we're snooping12:48
timeless"i know you run <> x times a day"12:48
jaem_notafktimeless: I was thinking that the update manager could "retrieve" any notices, but just delay them to be triggered when the app is actually used12:48
jaem_notafkand still let you override it if you really want to12:48
jeremiahjaem_notafk: Seems complicated.12:49
qgilit's also a quality consideration: if you app is buggy (or malicious) you go out of the main repo and full stop - you can probably still be in extras-devel or whatever in quaranteene12:49
timelesstoo much effort12:49
jaem_notafkjeremiah: yes, it does12:49
timelessmight as well tell you about the updates when it knows about them12:49
jaem_notafktimeless: probably - just a suggestion12:49
jaem_notafkwell, that's a thought too12:49
X-FadeI think we can feed security notification back in the Application Manager?12:50
jeremiahOkay. This begins to mirror debian's repository policys, where they provide a new package when a package that has been submitted has an exploit12:50
X-FadeSo a user can be warned about a problematic program.12:50
jaem_notafkbut does it replace the package?  or just add a notice?12:50
X-FadeWell, if we have an update AM will already show the SSU icon..12:50
jaem_notafkalternatively, you could just pull some sort of separate feed of security notices from the maemo website, and filter it according to what's installed12:51
jeremiahdebian _replaces_ the package with a NMU (non-maintainter upload)12:51
timelessis that package a dummy, or empty, or what?12:51
jeremiahjaem_notafk: That is also a good policy, but put the burden on the user.12:51
qgilsecurity is one aspect of the filtering process12:51
timelessfwiw, browser studies show that burdening the user doesn't work12:51
timelessif it isn't automatic, it's as good as useless/unused12:52
jeremiahtimeless: The package is a regular full package, with a patch, but security team has created it.12:52
jaem_notafkjeremiah: I'm not sure how it "burdens" them... ?12:52
qgilwhat we need at the end is a filtering process considering also that the app is feature complete, installs, is stable, doesn't kill the system resources, power management...12:52
timelessjeremiah: so they *fix* the package?12:53
timelesswhat if they can't find a fix?12:53
jeremiahjaem_notafk: Well, if you got an app that wiped out your hard drive, you would blame Maemo not yourself.12:53
timelesshow long do they wait w/ the package deployed and unfixed?12:53
jeremiahjaem_notafk: So if Maemo were to say "hey, that is your fault not ours"12:53
jaem_notafkjeremiah: if we're considering some sort of notification, aren't we presuming the device still mostly works?12:53
jeremiahjaem_notafk: You would feel that that is an undue burden12:54
jeremiahtimeless: They usually do, but they wait to announce until they have a fix and a new package.12:54
jeremiahtimeless: So yeah, they fix the package and send the fix upstream12:54
qgil"So if Maemo were to say "hey, that is your fault not ours"" - this comes from the disclaimers that users dislike so much  :)12:55
jaem_notafkjeremiah: I think you misunderstand me12:55
jeremiahExactly. It is unfair to users to pass on trojans, rootkits, etc.12:55
qgilstill, no matter the disclaimers, if the issue is affecting thousands of users only the calls to customer care and visits to the shop are an expensive hassle12:55
jeremiahA platform's reputation is its quality control.12:56
qgilor if someone blogs about something and Engadget picks that up and the Nokia logo is involved... these kind of things12:56
jaem_notafkjeremiah: I would hope the current process would preclude trojans getting in the repo, in any case - but I take your point12:57
qgiljaem_notafk: the fact is that "the current process" does not prevent that12:57
qgiland this is what needs to be improved in Fremantle12:57
jaem_notafkthat would be an issue12:57
jeremiahjaem_notafk: I would hope so too, and I imagine it has. But the cost of it happening is too great not to address.12:57
* timeless wonders what the current process is12:57
* jeremiah wonders as well12:58
jaem_notafkwhat is the current policy for getting a pkg into extras?12:58
Stskeepsjaem_notafk: willing to bet it is fairly easy to upload let's say.. Internet Explorer package which is a trojan ssh tunneling your X11VNC server somewhere :P12:58
* jeremiah would like some more concrete policy so that users know explicitly12:58
* jaem_notafk reads policy12:59
Stskeepsisn't maemo extras special by the fact it is developers and not maintainers uploading?12:59
qgiland more exactly
Stskeepswhereas debian maintainers need to show their worth12:59
qgilPlease make sure your package is ready for the masses and at least test:   if it installs without problems  if it uninstalls without problems  if it doesn't introduce dependency problems for other packages.12:59
jeremiahStskeeps: Yes, mostly true. But the barrier to entry is still quite low in debian.12:59
jeremiahIf you are not a DD you cannot upload to debian.13:00
jaem_notafkqgil: I see your concern now :S13:00
Stskeepsjeremiah: still, it isn't quite walk-in-from-the-street-and-upload :)13:00
jeremiahBut nearly anyone can go through mentors and have someone sponsor their upload.13:00
Stskeepsjeremiah: yeah, and the hope is there is some degree of package review then13:00
jeremiahStskeeps: No, you are right. :)13:00
timelessi can't get my package out of extras-devel13:00
timelessit fails promotion :)13:00
timelessPlease make sure your package is ready for the masses and at least test:13:01
timelessif it uninstalls without problems13:01
jeremiahGood point.13:01
jeremiahI can remove the package from extras-devel by hand if you like,13:01
timelessso, um... "help" :)13:01
Stskeepsthen again, the open attitude to extras does mean development and uptake of platform may be faster..13:01
jeremiahwhat is it called?13:01
timelessnah, extras-devel is fine13:01
timelessit's only a requirement for going into extras13:02
Stskeeps(at the cost of some sanity)13:02
jeremiahOh I see!13:02
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X-FadePromotion should have the QA step.13:02
timelessx-fade: so...13:02
timelessi talked to mvo13:02
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jeremiahX-Fade: Yeah, I agree, that is where the qa should happen.13:02
X-FadeQuestion is, what QA and what policy and who will do that..13:02
timeless(is that his nick?)13:03
Stskeepsmembers of community13:03
timelessand basically he acknowledges that this stuff isn't going to work well13:03
Stskeepstimeless: m-vo usually, i think13:03
X-FadeStskeeps: A team of repo maintainers, yes.13:03
timelesshe suggested i could hack gettext (which he thinks is part of glibc)13:03
timelessi told him i wasn't interested in forking glibc13:03
zs1anyone has gentoo? i need to make usb networking :)13:03
qgilX-Fade: well, there is a reason why we got a full time debmaster...13:03
X-Fadeqgil: Exactly ;) I've discussed this very issue with Jeremiah yesterday btw ;)13:04
timelessjeremiah: so...13:04
timelessm-vo didn't think dpkg-divert sounded particularly good13:04
X-FadeIdeally developer would request promotion. QA will do the promotion after OK.13:05
qgila related discussion that needs a resolution to be made between alpha and beta release is13:05
Stskeepstimeless: gettext is in gettext-base in ubuntu, at least13:05
timelessi think i'm leaning toward a thing which does a backup at preinst and a restore at postinst13:05
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qgilwhether we keep the extras-devel ---> extras bi-repo situation we have now13:05
timelessstskeeps: the actual gettext() function itself?13:05
Stskeepstimeless: oh, gettext function itself - i thought you meant /usr/bin/gettext13:05
qwerty12timeless, I'd hope it was restored at postrm :)13:05
qgilor we go for the 3 levels experimental/unstable --> testing --> stable13:05
qgilextras-devel / extras-test / extras13:06
X-FadeI think we all agree that Extras needs to be enabled on the device by default. And that an end-user should expect stable, maintained apps there..13:06
jeremiahqgil: The three layered approach provides more places for qa and automated testing.13:06
timelessjeremiah: and more chances that it doesn't get used13:06
qgiljeremiah: I know and I'm for it13:06
* Stskeeps personally believes in personal package archives -> extras-test -> extras instead13:06
timelessc.f. sardine (dead)13:06
X-FadePlease not that in debian unstable -> testing is a time delay based thing.13:06
qgilwe have started that discussion many times, but never got to a conclusion, be it 2 or 3 levels13:06
X-FadeNot active QA.13:07
Stskeepswhere PPAs are garage based13:07
jeremiahtimeless: You're right - the additional layers of indirection mean fewer apps get used by the end user.13:07
Stskeepspersonal package archives, like launchpad's13:07
jaem_notafkeither way, where QA is done is important - I can go post a *.install on ITT that adds extra-devel, so that people can try out my New Great App (TM), and then we run into the same problem13:07
Stskeepswant to alpha test a product? add the PPA13:07
timelesssorry, pretend i don't know what launchpad is13:07
jaem_notafksts: I'm a fan of PPAs13:07
Stskeepstimeless: basically a per-developer repository, but centrally based13:08
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timelesssts: i think gan/jaffa/x-fade campaigned against ppa13:08
suihkulokkireplace garage with :)13:08
qgilmy non-techical point of view here is:13:08
jaem_notafksts: they also shift the responsibility/blame more onto the shoulders of the individual devs13:08
jeremiahBut PPAs just create more problems13:08
timelessthat's basically what we had before w/ extras13:08
X-Fadejaem_notafk: I think that is were Application Manager can help. It can add these awful warnings for 'not trusted' repos.13:08
jeremiahYou have repos everywhere13:08
Stskeepstimeless: not entirely, PPAs are backed by autobuilder and hosted @ centralized spot13:08
qgil- extras for the masses, in Maemo 5 is active by default and will be kept there unless there are too many problems found by real users13:08
Stskeepstimeless: and focused upon one product at at time or a developer13:09
timelessso, who does promotion today, and why?13:09
timelessis it really the developer?13:09
wazdI'm totally sick13:09
X-Fadetimeless: Anybody..13:09
wazdhello qgil)13:09
timelesspersonally, i'd rather *not* be the one who promotes my package13:09
Stskeepswazd: hah :>13:09
qgil- extras-test or extras-beta or something along these lines for software that is found good enough by the own developers but needs still peer review, QA and what not13:09
jaem_notafkx-fade: if we still have all the other awful warnings, Joe User will probably just click through that one without reading13:09
timelessi'm fine w/ "nominating" a package13:09
jaem_notafkstill, though, it might work13:09
timelessand then having a referendum13:09
timelesswhere people can comment saying "i tested, and feel it's ready"13:10
X-Fadejaem_notafk: That would imply that trusted repos won't have it of course.13:10
timelessafter a certain point, someone reviews and decides if it's ready13:10
jaem_notafkx-fade: just checking13:10
qgiland extras-devel -unstable -experimental or PPA or whatever you want for anything definitely not intended for end users, not even for power users willing to test fresh stuff13:10
Stskeepswazd: you should make a talk about stealing with arms and legs..13:10
suihkulokkiIMNHSO the application manager could have 1-5 stars selector, which would enable repos extas-one-star -> extras-five-star according to how many stars users selected13:10
timelessjeremiah/qgil: btw, you should look at how works w/ their extension sandbox13:10
suihkulokkithen have some accepted QA criteria to select which "star category" a package belongs to13:10
wazdI should send it to engadget)13:10
jeremiahSo it appears we have consesnsus around a three repo plan?13:10
X-Fadejeremiah: I'm not a fan.13:11
jeremiahFollowing qgil's format?13:11
jeremiahX-Fade: Aha.13:11
jaem_notafkjeremiah: if PPAs are out, that would be my next vote13:11
timelesssuihkulokki: the ui wizards have wanted stars for ham forever13:11
* timeless has no idea if it'll ever happen13:11
X-Fadejeremiah: Well, adding yet another repo doesn't fix things by itself.13:11
X-FadeIn debian testing is about as likely to break as unstable.13:12
jeremiahX-Fade: Think of it not as a repo,  but as a place where you can hammer the potential package with scripts testing quality.13:12
suihkulokkisomething in the line of 1 star being "I managed to compile it, it works sometimes, UI is not tablet-optimized" and 5 stars being "doesn't crash and has well optimized UI for tablet"13:12
X-FadeIf nobody cared to test a package it automatically moved from unstable to testing without problems.13:12
jaem_notafkbut I think we need to make it clear that there is a "good" repo, a "try it at your own risk" repo, and a 'will eat your children" repo, and not just good/sort-of-good/almost-as-good13:12
jeremiahjaem_notafk: Yeah, I agree.13:12
jaem_notafkif people are advertising their New Great Program (TM) as soon as it compiles, people are going to install it no matter the warnings13:13
X-FadeIt would be nice to have defined what one can expect from a repo.13:13
jeremiahI think it is crucial that we state publically what the repos contain13:13
qgilI'm putting together the pieces for a "Maemo betatester" plan and it would be good to have something between extras and extras-totally-unfiltered-devel13:13
X-FadeBut would a developer like it if it takes a few days from upload to appearance in Extras?13:14
timelessx-fade: who cares?13:14
jeremiahIt takes ten days for _anything_ to get into debian.13:14
jeremiahI think a short wait is reasonable.13:14
jaem_notafkwell, there's nothing stopping a dev from posting a deb on their own website/Garage in the mean time13:14
jaem_notafkpeople do that anyways13:14
timelessx-fade: it's taken me weeks to go nowhere w/ my package13:14
X-Fadejeremiah: Yes and people complain about that ;)13:14
timelessif a dev is in a hurry, they can cheat and use their own repo13:14
timelessthat said13:14
timelessi don't think a time based system is the right answer13:14
timelessthe right answer is a list of people who can collectively approve something13:15
X-FadeWell, what if a fix to a bugged package takes a developer the same time?13:15
X-FadeIs that a going to be a problem?13:15
jeremiahX-Fade: But people love the stability of debian too, so I think the balance is there.13:15
timelessso if i can find 5/10 of them on irc w/in a smaller window i can get it approved13:15
qgilthat said many users do a mistake once and even twice installing something that looked cool from somewhere13:15
timelessjeremiah: which is why people use ubuntu13:15
timelessplease don't suggest stability as the reason13:15
qgilbut many of them do learn and stick to repos once they see how beautiful is not to have to reflash and etc13:15
timelessdebian stable is known for glacial pace13:15
jeremiahtimeless: Which is why people use it.13:16
timelessmaemo is used in Nokia devices targetted at people who are on the edge13:16
jaem_notafkqgil: which is why we need to get the message across to the devs, too13:16
timelessearly adopters13:16
* Jaffa thinks he had an earlier blog post on QA13:16
X-Fadejeremiah: But this is what gave ubunut it's boost.13:16
wazdCan I give my 2 kopeykas?)13:16
timelessearly adopters are not the people who wait 5 years before they adopt a product13:16
jeremiahX-Fade: And subsequent fall.13:16
qgiljaem_notafk: sure, and a way to send the message to the developers is:13:16
X-FadeSo we need to find some kind of middle ground for that.13:16
qgilblog about your app and put your deb in your homepage if you wish13:16
jeremiahLots of upstream projects return to debian because of its stability, mepis, etc.13:16
qgilbut by no means you are going to be promoted in * and even less in
timelessjaffa: spell check your titles?13:17
qgiland that's where the stuff really happens13:17
inztimeless, damn, you beat me13:17
timelessinz: glad to have a race :)13:17
jaem_notafkqgil: sounds good13:18
X-Fadeqgil: I also think we need to fix this in AM. That is still where most people get their apps.13:18
X-Fadeqgil: And if a user clicks one .install from gronmayer, he has it all.13:18
inzIRC is teh best spellchecker eva; just post a link and people will complain ;)13:18
Stskeepsjeremiah: hildon application manager13:18
jeremiahStskeeps: Thanks :)13:18
X-Fadeqgil: No differentiation between official repos and just a random one.13:18
timelessx-fade: we should offer to disable repos after the install process finishes13:19
qgilX-Fade:   Yes, this is what Ville and Elena are looking at13:19
jaem_notafktimeless: that's a start13:19
timelesshowever, that doesn't really do the right thing13:19
timelessbecause i really do want updates for my app13:19
X-Fadetimeless: I think we really need colored backgrounds in the app list, indicating the source.13:19
jaem_notafkis there a mechanism in apt repos for differentiation/13:19
X-Fadetimeless: Or something like that.13:19
timelessx-fade; something like that could be interesting13:19
X-FadeOr put everything trusted on top.13:20
timelesscolors is of course wrong13:20
timelessno no :)13:20
X-Fadetimeless: Or icons or whatever.13:20
timelesssorry, having dealt w/ long lists13:20
timelessicons have issues too, who picks them?13:20
qgilbut if the extras process is good enough, good developers will not go elsewhere and the average end user will not feel the need to go elsewhere either13:20
X-FadeStability switch on the bar..13:20
timelesswhat if two repos pick 'similar' icons13:20
jaem_notafk"ooh... I like the yellow-and-black striped apps... let's install them!"13:20
qgilit's been some years now since I last installed a non-official repo in my Linux desktop13:20
jaem_notafk"what's that it says?  'caution'"13:20
qgilbecause basically what I need is in the official repos already13:20
jeremiahqgil: I think this will probably be the case actually. Lots of good quality apps in Maemo13:21
timelessqgil: how much software do you install on your desktop?13:21
timelesspersonally i don't install much at all13:21
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jeremiahI install tons of stuff and I run debian unstable. Even that is rock solid13:21
qgiltimeless: also true, I got the apps I need and I don't care much about whetever else13:21
timelessqgil: there's nothing wrong w/ that13:21
jaem_notafkx-fade, timeless: the problem still remains... if we let the user click it, they will; if we don't, we're evil...13:21
X-Fadetimeless: Well Nokia isn't going to ship a firmware with a bunch of community apps (yet)13:22
jaem_notafksome compromise is needed13:22
timelessit's jsut that essentially you're no longer a bleeding early adopter13:22
timelessnor am i13:22
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qgiltimeless: but actually something similar might happen with the average maemo 5 user13:22
X-Fadetimeless: So we need some easy way to install some apps :)13:22
qgilyou start trying out a bunch of things13:22
timelessqgil: ideally yeah13:22
timelesspersonally, for my boxes, i'll install a base13:22
qgilafter some months you keep what matters and from time to time you give a try to something else13:22
timelessthen install a bunch of experiments13:22
timelessnote which ones i like13:22
qgilbasically after recommendations and etc13:22
timelessand then install the useful ones again13:23
X-Fadetimeless: That doesn't sound like avarage joe behavior to me :D13:23
jeremiahtimeless: You're not running linux with ZFS?13:23
jeremiahIt isn't in the kernel13:23
timelessin maemo4, that's basically buy device, setup stuff, backup, install junk, reflash, restore, install relevant stuff13:23
timelessjeremiah: i run osol/snv13:23
timeless(and nexenta and a centos lx branded zone)13:23
jaemtimeless: :S13:24
qgilok guys, I should be doping something else13:24
qgilhopefully the feedback was useful jeremiah  :)13:24
timelessqgil: don't dope!13:24
X-FadeIn short I think we need: QA process in promotion fase, AM modification to show trust level of software.13:24
qgildoping? doing!13:24
jeremiahDoing dope?13:24
jaemdoing LCD?13:24
timelessqgil: paying too much attn to american baseball?13:24
jaemsniffing wifi?13:24
X-FadeExtra level of repo? Maybe, if well defined and proven to be beneficial?13:25
qgiltimelin my next life perhaps13:25
qgilX-Fade: the pragmatic approach is to start with extras-devel only in fremantle13:25
qgiland don't let anybody jumpt to a more stable evel until there is a process in place13:25
jeremiahX-Fade: Maybe one should think of it as a testing zone that people can upload to13:25
X-Fadeqgil: For alpha and beta sure..13:25
qgilalpha is a good time to setup the devel repo and start the discussion (really)13:26
timelesshow hard would it be to pick 12-24 people who can help a package from extras-devel to extras13:26
X-Fadeqgil: We have some time to test things out there and no real users to worry about... yet.13:26
qgilbeta is a good time to start getting into conclusions :)13:26
timelessand then require 3 or maybe 5 votes before a package jumps13:26
timelessbtw, do we expect someone to get a new approval for each package update13:26
timelessor just the first version that's included in extras?13:27
X-Fadetimeless: That only works if people actively help testing..13:27
timelessx-fade: well, people have helped me13:27
X-FadeAnd our tester base is large enough..13:27
timelessif the package isn't important, then it can wait longer13:27
jaemx-fade: and not everyone can feasibly test everything, which would put constraints on tester numbers, and necessary votes13:27
timelessif people want something badly enough, they can volunteer to be testers13:27
X-Fadetimeless: And thus frustrates the developer, which causes him to setup his own repo.13:27
X-FadeI've seen that happen ;)13:28
timelessbut they can't test the thing they want first13:28
timelessthey'd have to test 3 other things from the queue13:28
qgilfor updates a simple diff seen by 2 people can tell more than 30' test by 1000 people13:28
jaemand not everyone that would volunteer would be competent13:28
* timeless nods13:28
* timeless is hungry13:28
timelesssomeone have a spare apple?13:28
* jaem hands timeless some pizza13:28
jeremiahMe too, starving13:28
jaemtimeless: I have two, but they looked dead enough when I bought them13:28
jaemI shudder to think what they look like now13:29
* jaem curses uni food13:29
jeremiahI am going to get some lunch, I hope to write something down to make this discussion concrete.13:29
X-FadeIt is a fine line to walk between easy uploading and making things too hard.13:29
jeremiah(Not about my lunch but about the repos. :) )13:29
jaemyou're not going to blog about your lunch? :(13:29
qgiljeremiah: and why your blog posts don't appear in  maemo.org13:29
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timelesshe probably didn't file a bug asking to join pmo13:30
X-Fadeqgil: I will check. He is there..13:30
JaffaX-Fade: did you fix the council posts in p.m.o appearing bug?13:30
wazdI had one idea for application manager promoting system13:30
Stskeepsi just saw jeremiah's post in pmo13:30
JaffaCould be related13:30
X-FadeJaffa: You didn't look at the scrollback ;)13:30
jeremiahqgil: Well, the first one did - not sure about the others . ..13:30
jeremiahStskeeps: Oh good.13:31
X-FadeIt s there.13:31
qgilI found the security one thanks to google  :)13:31
JaffaX-Fade: ah yes, ta13:31
jeremiahIt may be PEBKAC13:31
X-Fade4th item on planet.13:31
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X-Fadejeremiah: And I think you need to write about Security team not Maemo security team.13:32
wazdthe more rated app is - the more intensive background it has13:32
SaBeris there any api call to hide the virtual keyboard? I can't seem to find one...13:32
X-FadeAlthough they can work together..13:32
jeremiahX-Fade: Right, will try to be clearer.13:32
timelesssaber: what are you trying to do and why?13:32
X-Fadejeremiah: Maemo and are different things and even Nokia people are confused some time ;)13:33
SaBertimeless: hide the keyboard, because it is not needed at a certain point in my application, and it takes up space13:33
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timelesssaber: the keyboard in theory should go away if it doesn't think focus is on an input area13:35
timelesshowever, the decision to have the keyboard should be up to the user13:35
timelessif the user wants the space, there's a minimize button in the vkb13:35
SaBertimeless: I guess the hiding is not yet implemented in Qt yet...13:37
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jaemwell, goodnight, everyone13:38
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timelesswow, rene doesn't seem to like the 77013:40
sp3000timeless: fud!13:40
timelesssp3000: agreed.13:41
* timeless leaves13:41
jaem_afkgraaagggh: hackaday stole my idea ;)13:41
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Stskeepsjaem_afk: did your Fn work, btw?13:47
jaem_afksts: >_< forgot to check13:47
jaem_afkI will, and then I'm *actually* going to bed13:48
jaem_afkit's almost 4am here13:48
Stskeepshehe, okay13:48
jaem_afkI'm kind of annoyed at the hackaday article13:48
jaem_afkoh well, the war is on now13:48
jaem_afkand judging by DealExtreme's tardiness at shipping, I should have a bit of a headstart13:49
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qwerty12They haven't actually done anything with it yet though, you'll probably beat them to it :)13:49
jaem_afkI hope so...13:49
jaem_afklast time I ordered from DX, it was backordered for > 1 month13:50
jaem_afkso I'm hopeful13:50
glassmy order got shipped in about a week13:50
jaem_afkwell, my shipping was fast13:50
jaem_afkbut the waiting wasn't13:50
* glass should be receiving some usb-sata dongles shortly13:50
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glassit took a week for them to get the stuff from their sub-supplier or something13:51
jaem_afkhmm... not shipped yet13:51
jaem_afkdarn it!13:51
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jaem_afksts: Fn works marvellously13:52
jaem_afk(that was a high-five bitmask, btw)13:52
smellycatjaem_afk: that was so lame even the woz facepalmed :P13:53
jaem_afkhey... I couldn't think of an emoticon13:54
jaem_afkI was being creative13:54
jaem_afk...and I'm in Comp Eng, so what do you expect?13:54
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jaem_afkunder "other features" on the BT bracelet page: "Can be used just as a bracelet"13:59
jaem_afkno kidding13:59
* qwerty12 imagines someone presenting it in a box to their girl: "Oh, you shouldn't have!"... "Oh."14:00
jaem_afkheck - if I was a girl, I'd be happy14:00
jaem_afkbut then again, I'm not, so that probably skews things14:00
jaem_afkhmmm... apparently we live several decades earlier than we actually do14:01
jaem_afkbecause this website claims that a QVGA camera is "high resolution"14:02
jaem_afk"this device is perfect for dentists"..."Note: This device is not intended for medical use. "14:03
* smellycat has never seen a higher resolution bracelet camera :D14:03
jaem_afkno - I'm talking about the electric toothbrush with a camera instead of bristles14:03
smellycato rly?14:03
smellycatwhat a cool device14:03
glassi wonder if theres porno made with it14:04
* smellycat imagines the places one could use that14:04
* jaem_afk does not want to know14:04
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qgilyou can broadcast your visits to the dentist14:04
jaem_afkit could be the new Youtube phenomenon14:05
qwerty12glass, looking at the title by any chance?14:05
jaem_afkday 1: the Root Canal14:05
jaem_afkeither that, or a new reality show14:05
smellycatthe only thing wrong is the direction its at, you cannot get any ummm trains into the tunnel shots14:05
jaem_afkon a sad note, it looks like the bracelet may only display numbers :(14:06
glassqwerty12: i think i saw the same thing for sale at dx14:06
jaem_afkglass: *everything* is for sale at DX14:06
jaem_afkincluding bunnies, if you're looking for the plastic/led variety, with flash memory and a bottle opener built in14:07
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Stskeepsbman_: got a laptop or something? :P14:17
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bman_yeah why14:18
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Stskeepsnot the normal way you enter :)14:19
wazdweee, I have a new entrance door :)14:19
Stskeepswhat happened to the old one? something vodka-related? :P14:19
wazdNow I can stand a tank shot :)14:20
wazdNope, it's just became old :) I'm having renovation in my flat14:20
Stskeeps hehe14:20
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wazdThe bad thing is that I had auto-lock on the old one, and new doesn't have it14:21
bman_got 2 laptops and a n800ahh14:21
bman_didnt read14:21
bman_how goes it14:21
wazdIt's not so handy, but now I can't get out without keys :)14:22
Stskeepsbman_: fine, and just to check, you're the b-man who frequent here? :P14:22
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Stskeepsprobably easier to type than on an on-screen kbd :P14:23
hahlocan one easily change touchscreen in n800?14:25
hahlois it cheap part?14:25
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wazdStskeeps: <- my next post :)14:27
Stskeepswazd: hah :P14:29
StskeepsTV interfaces? :P14:29
wazdStskeeps: large screens interfaces)14:29
mgedminhahlo: changing the screen in a n810 is gonna cost me ~150 EUR14:30
mgedminwhich is not cheap14:30
Stskeepsisnt it almost cheaper to buy a new one? :P14:30
mgedminwazd: awesome14:30
mgedminStskeeps: I did both :-)14:30
hahloquite a lot14:30
mgedminit's faster to get a new one14:30
mgedminI gave my n810 to the local service last october14:31
mgedminI haven't heard from them yet14:31
mgedminexcept for a phone call last november confirming the cost14:31
mgedminmaybe they fixed it and forgot to call me?14:31
X-Fademgedmin: I admire your patience ;)14:31
mgedminwhat patience?  I ordered a new n810 the same day I cracked my old one's screen14:32
RST38hthey fixed it and fund a good use for it14:32
mgedminit arrived in two days14:32
mgedminI suffered a lot14:32
mgedminduring those two days14:32
mgedminwell, a little ;)14:32
X-Fademgedmin: But you didn't even ping them for status updates?14:32
mgedminnope, I have a working n810, so I don't care14:32
mgedminI should ping them when I go back home14:32
* mgedmin on a trip to Sweden right now14:32
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mgedminI should've accepted the kind offer of some guy with a email who offered to send me his broken n810 with a working screen14:33
mgedminbut I wanted to see what dealing with nokia's authorized service was like in Lithuania14:33
RST38hprobably as bad as everywhere else14:33
mgedminalso, I'm not a screwdriver-using person14:33
mgedminI sort of know which end to hold14:34
mgedmin'sharp end towards enemy' ;)14:34
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* lardman thinks bt bracelet is good idea - smart house, etc14:34
* mgedmin is afraid of stupid houses14:35
mgedminI mean, anyone who works with software knows enough not to trust it14:35
aquatixwell, then i'm afraid of smart houses too14:36
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wazdomg! Look! They are transparent!14:38
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wazdAnd I can move them around! It's superawesome!14:39
RST38hwazd: whi are these guys?14:39
Stskeepsaccess linux.. another linux mobile stack14:40
RST38hYALMS =)14:40
wazdRST38h: Yet another linux mobile platform)14:40
wazdRST38h: lol)14:40
RST38hOh well...14:41
wazdThis lady is pretty excited with transparency)14:41
RST38hDon't show this video to lcuk, he may get new ideas from it! =)14:42
* Stskeeps orders a mmcmobile card14:42
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* RST38h screwed up some constructor and can't run the code now14:43
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t_s_owazd: females and eye candy?...14:46
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wazdRST38h: Vodka - poison!14:47
aquatixt_s_o: transparency and females14:47
t_s_oaquatix: for their enjoyment or ours? ;)14:47
t_s_olardman: reading "coolest gadgets"?14:48
Stskeepswazd: with mer we just need XKCD applet going and we have 95% of the geek population..14:48
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps: it's in python, shouldn't be hard :)14:48
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RST38hwazd: There are worse, much worse things...14:49
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RST38hwazd: (investigate carefully, danger of permanent braindamage)14:49
t_s_ohmm, been kinda quiet around tear lately...14:49
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t_s_oRST38h: that background was bad enough. tie dye to the nth...14:51
aquatixt_s_o: preferably both ;)14:51
RST38ht_s_o: madmen absolutley LOVE that14:51
t_s_oheh, and addicts, maybe...14:52
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matmoanyone using pluthon on winxp?15:05
matmowork ok on Linux?15:07
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thopiekarhave you installed copssh?15:09
matmoI'm wondering A) can I use existing ssh keys (putty) and B) can wifi be used in place of usb networking? Yep, I have just installed copssh.15:09
matmoB )15:10
thopiekarmatmo: so where is the problem?15:10
matmoI have just finished installing everything and don't want to fuk it all up :-)15:11
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thopiekarhave you set up the */copssh/bin folder as a path in windows's settings?15:11
thopiekar* as explained in the how-to?15:11
thopiekarIt should work :|15:12
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matmoHave pc-connectivity on tablet, bugzilla says usb-net prob won't work and I don't see why I need to create ssh keys when I have some for putty15:13
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qwerty12_N800iirc, putty keys use a different format, and you'll have to use wifi as RNDIS support is broken in the 2.6.21 kernel15:14
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timelessthere are tools to convert key formats15:16
timelessiirc they're described in the putty docs15:17
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Stskeepsi just compiled cx3110x 1.2 for 77015:30
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Stskeepswell that is much more stable scanning, hmm15:35
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StskeepsOK, so, cx3110x, which is newest, 0.8.5 or 1.2, because timestamps on garage is 0.8.5 before 1.2 ..15:38
* GeneralAntilles shudders at the thought of encouraging .deb-only distribution.15:39
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Blob heaven ;)15:39
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qwerty12_N800Now that we have jeremiah, it shouldn't really be an option. .deb only is for people who don't know how to use dh_make and use pypackager15:41
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jeremiahBTW, do we have a naming convention for packages? i.e. app-1.1-maemo-115:43
jeremiahMust check the docs about that  .. .15:43
X-Fadejeremiah: We follow debian numbering.15:44
X-Fadejeremiah: And your example: FAIL :)15:44
jeremiahX-Fade: :P15:44
X-FadeI think you will find all info you need in that policy.15:45
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X-FadeIt is the Debian packaging policy + some Maemo related changes.15:46
jeremiahX-Fade: Thanks!15:47
X-Fadejeremiah: That will keep you busy for a while ;)15:47
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tekojoX-Fade: you really are loading jeremiah every chance you get :-)15:50
X-Fadetekojo: Comes with the job ;)15:50
matmotimeless: thanks, looks easier just to create new keys15:50
matmopluthon user guide, create keys, ssh2 home: should this directory already exist?15:51
* GeneralAntilles sighs at the ever decreasing number of PPC applications.15:51
qwerty12_N800Time to embrace Intel, eh? :p15:52
GeneralAntillesIf only I had the cash.15:52
matmoorig mac mini = headless file server15:53
RST38hGeneral: Just buy a Mac Mini15:54
GeneralAntillesRST38h, as my primary machine?15:54
RST38hWell, worth trying15:54
GeneralAntillesI'm not spending $800 to downgrade my hardware.15:54
* RST38h thought Minis went for $50015:55
jeremiahThe mini has Core 2 duo and you can get them with 2 gigs RAM15:55
jeremiahLinux runs about 30% faster on it that native OS X15:55
RST38hThis would probably be faster than your PPC =)15:55
GeneralAntillesjeremiah, and I've got 6GB in my dual-2.5GHz G5. ;)15:55
GeneralAntillesRST38h, or not.15:55
RST38hAs I said, worth trying15:55
jeremiahGeneralAntilles: Yeah, that's the thing, you can't get over 2 gigs on the mini15:56
jeremiahGeneralAntilles: So kind of rules that out.15:56
||cwisn't a 1.5Ghz core2 faster than a 2.5Ghz G5?15:56
GeneralAntillesI can't get away with a tiny video card like that anyway.15:56
GeneralAntilles||cw, ha!15:56
* Jaffa got rid of his original Mini a while ago and realised since I only ever ran OSS apps (primarily, Gimp, Inkscape, Firefox and an SSH client) I could do that on a nice commodity self-built Linux box, no matter how nice the Apple hardware & OS is.15:56
||cwnothing about holy war, you can't compare clock15:56
RST38hUnder certain conditions (not met by PPC vs Intel) you can15:57
glassppc uberism was just apple pr shit15:57
jeremiahThe mini is so quiet though, that is what makes it so nice.15:57
jeremiahIt is a pretty crippled machine though and you pay the Apple tax for a proprietary system15:58
GeneralAntillesjeremiah, I've slept in close proximity to a G5 for many years.15:58
GeneralAntillesQuiet isn't important.15:58
RST38hIs sleeping in close proximity to it important? =)15:58
jeremiahWell, then I cannot make a case for the mini. :P15:58
GeneralAntillesI'm pulling for a radiator leak resulting in a free Mac Pro upgrade, personally.15:58
GeneralAntillesRST38h, I don't have a large apartment.15:58
RST38hGeneral: I did mean it in a different sense =)15:59
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glassGeneralAntilles: long cabling ftw15:59
RST38hBut if you are tight on budget, that basically leaves Mini or some small self-built box15:59
matmoC:\Documents and Settings\pluthon\.ssh - replace "pluthon" by account name for copSSH? Should .ssh already exist?15:59
glasssmall atom self builts should be pretty much under 60015:59
glassyou can get a laptop for 60016:00
RST38hAtom is too slow16:00
GeneralAntillesglass, seriously, G5 -> Atom?16:00
GeneralAntillesI mean, really.16:00
RST38hNot usable for serious work - I checked =(16:00
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glassGeneralAntilles: mini16:00
GeneralAntillesI'm not paying money to downgrade my primary machine.16:00
||cwatom is too slow16:01
||cwit's fine for web browsing and stuff16:01
RST38hThen sooner or later it will become obsolete16:01
glasseverything will16:01
GeneralAntillesRST38h, eventually I'll have money to upgrade to a better machine.16:02
hahlois there arm laptops?16:02
RST38hglass: well, a pc will of course become "slower" with time, but it won't become totally obsolete16:02
glasseventually better machines will be free too16:02
glassRST38h: i view it as obsolote as in value if similar machines can be bonked for free16:02
RST38hGeneral: You can no longer upgrade to a better PPC box =(16:02
matmoanyone? Does pluthon setup need a "pluthon" user for copSSH or what?16:03
RST38hglass: In poor general's case, the whole architecture is becoming obsolete (sadly, because PPC was a good CPU)16:03
GeneralAntillesRST38h, well, you could, but it'd require handing quite a bit of money over to IBM.16:03
glassRST38h: i don't see much good about g5, seriously16:03
* RST38h checks if IBM is still producing RS-series16:03
RST38hglass: lotsa registers16:03
glassfriggin noisy, not good buck per dollar16:03
RST38hGeneral: Yesss, you CAN upgrade:
RST38h(in a sense)16:04
ccookeGeneralAntilles: Butcher an xbox360 into running OSX? Decent graphics and a tri-core, later generation CPU... ;-)16:05
GeneralAntillesccooke, sadly not enough RAM.16:05
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jeremiahX-Fade: Does lintian get run at any point over incoming packages?16:05
||cwmatmo: I think you'd need to ask the copSSH people16:06
GeneralAntillesjeremiah, we need a Maemo-specific version first, I think.16:06
X-Fadejeremiah: GA is right.16:06
RST38h  <== you can chat to them in real time, asking abut the price :)16:06
glassccooke: it would be crap.. but running osx on it would be an accomplishment16:07
jeremiahGeneralAntilles: Can we start using it and strip stuff / add stuff as needed?16:07
X-Fadejeremiah: Nokia has a modified lintian internally, we would need to get that one first.16:07
jeremiahX-Fade: Yeah, the internal lintian would be great.16:07
GeneralAntillesCan we file a bug?16:07
matmo||cw: maybe, but this is a setting in eclipse and instructions in the pluthon help section16:07
jeremiahI work with linitian current maintainer in debian, Russ Aberry, so he would be interested in our use of it I think.16:08
jeremiahGeneralAntilles: I will do that now.16:08
ccookeGeneralAntilles: Hmm. lintian's not too hard to modify. Is there some understanding on what needs to change?16:08
X-Fadeccooke: Not too much, just some maemo specific rules like our own Sections etc..16:08
GeneralAntillesccooke, so it checks for and respects the stuff outlined in the Maemo Packaging Policy.16:08
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ccookeGeneralAntilles: Ah ha.16:08
jeremiahlintian is written in perl16:09
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, the title for is going to have to change.16:09
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X-FadeGeneralAntilles: Can be added to the new style?16:11
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, yeah, I was looking at newstyle which is what reminded me.16:11
GeneralAntillesIt's not just the development platform and it's arguably no longer just for internet tablets.16:11
jeremiahGeneralAntilles: When I file a bug, which section should it go in? website, since it is a repository tool?16:12
GeneralAntillesFirst, is never capitalized. :P16:12
GeneralAntillesSecond, good question. :P16:12
GeneralAntillesIf not a bug, we could always poke -developers.16:12
jeremiahThird, Okay. :)16:12
GeneralAntillesQuim or somebody can figure it out I'm sure.16:12
jeremiahEl Quim!16:12
jeremiahEmail to -developers it is then. :)16:13
* GeneralAntilles had a dream about the community manager discussion last night. . . .16:13
RST38hDon't you have irc already?16:13
Stskeepsin your dreams?16:15
GeneralAntillesThat'll come when we get neural implants.16:15
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: brain meltdown when accessing iTT ..16:15
* GeneralAntilles shakes his head at ThoughFix's readership.16:16
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RST38hWell, ThoughtFix isn't married to the tablet, he has rights to wonder =)16:18
Stskeepsi might actually have a sane wifi driver for my 770 now16:18
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RST38hHowever naively16:18
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RST38hWow, WinXP boots/16:20
Stskeepson tablets? ;>16:21
hahlodoes xp boot on tablet?16:23
jeremiahWow, WinXP boots at all?16:24
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hahlogood porting to boot xp on tablet16:25
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Stskeeps <- cx3110x 1.2 for 77016:27
t_s_ohmm, bluetooth over wifi radio...16:31
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t_s_oheh, seems like the wireless equivalent of running usb over ethernet...16:33
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Stskeepsr2d2rogers: ping16:35
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t_s_ough, it seems that most only see bluetooth as a slow file transfer system, and one that can be replaced by wifi using ftp/http/whatever other file transfer related protocols are out there...16:38
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t_s_ostill, i find it odd that they need to piggy back on wifi to speed up...16:39
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Stskeepsdid you try bluetooth recently? :P16:40
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t_s_oStskeeps: 2.x + edr your hinting at?16:40
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t_s_oi just wonder what wifi is doing differently to bluetooth to have the speed difference that it has. they are both working in the same frequency band, after all...16:41
suihkulokkit_s_o: using much more electricity16:42
t_s_osuihkulokki: sounds to simple, as that makes me ask why they cant just pump more into the existing bluetooth radio as needed...16:43
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aquatixwell, bluetooth 3 will have a lot more bandwidth16:45
aquatixbut the bluetooth radio and chips are a lot more simple than wifi16:45
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t_s_oso its one of those "devil in details" topics...16:46
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t_s_ofunny how they can be simpler, yet have all these profiles defined...16:46
GeneralAntillesWell, profiles are on a higher level than the RF. ;)16:47
t_s_oheh, true16:47
t_s_oand i got to say, i love them16:47
t_s_ojust wish maemo had a storage browsing profile going16:48
GeneralAntillesI just wish devices were consistent about implementing them.16:48
GeneralAntillesHalf the devices you use that are advertised as supporting certain profiles wont do so without crashing or sending junk data.16:48
RST38ht_s_o: Afaik WiFi uses spread-spectrum, BT uses frequency hopping16:49
RST38hBut Wikipedia will surely have more complete and uptodate info16:49
t_s_oheh, indeed. almost to much ;)16:49
RST38hWiFi links do use wider spectrum chunks, so they can pump more data there16:49
t_s_oGeneralAntilles: with devices, are you saying "phones"? i can see how that can happen if one run into phones with operator supplied firmwares, where they try to stop the user from accessing specific bluetooth features...16:51
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GeneralAntillesNah, it's not operator meddling, it's mostly just shitty software QA. ;)16:55
GeneralAntillesWell, not that operators don't meddle, but when they do it just means that the profile is removed.16:56
GeneralAntillesNot that it sort of half works.16:56
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t_s_owell they could end up messing up one when trying to kill the other, one never knows...17:02
t_s_ostill, i cant say i have had any issues mixing bluetooth devices so far. but then i have not sat down and looked at the actual packets being transmitted...17:03
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luke-jrguess that "8 days" of battery life doesn't apply when GPS is left on :/17:07
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GeneralAntillesNo, really?17:08
tank-maneven standalone gps loggers don't last 8 days17:08
luke-jrwell, it's only receiving.. :17:08
luke-jroh well17:08
luke-jrso why is there no kismet port/17:09
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StskeepsMeizirkki: hal should be autodetecting Fn now17:22
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wazdNokia signs ˆ500 million loan for Symbian R&D17:27
wazdI can be hired for much lower price :P17:27
RST38hYes, but can you be made to do Symbian R&D? =)17:28
glassgo work at some firm they buy r&d then from17:28
RST38hglass: Let us just create a new firm17:29
wazdWell, I think I can do R&D in UI sphere :)17:30
RST38hglass: RUR/USD exchange rate is real good for that right now, and we can always expect Quim to bring some work =)17:30
wazdAnd industrial design17:30
RST38hwazd: Symbian hasn't done any UI R&D =)17:31
wazdRST38h: centuries xD17:31
Macercmon UPS17:32
glassRST38h: hehe17:33
Maceri have like 4 pkgs showing up today17:33
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Maceri'm excited.. it's like waiting on santa claus17:33
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Macerdo those actually work?17:44
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Macerseems like an interesting concept17:44
RST38hI do not think they will work well17:45
MeizirkkiStskeeps, great. i can't test it right now, my tablet is being repaired. :(17:45
RST38hNot enough area to charge the battery17:46
RST38h...It seems that in this case a "long-duration" blast is one lasting three seconds or so. However, company energy-cannon chief Dan Wildt said the laser could easily have kept blazing for longer, but this would have destroyed or melted the ground test equipment...17:46
MacerRST38h: don't think so?17:47
Maceranyways.. let me go wait for UPS17:48
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jeremiahHmm. That libogg build failed. I will try to look at that when I get home.17:51
jeremiahlibvorbis too.17:51
X-Fadejeremiah: Didn't fail. Was rejected.17:52
X-Fadejeremiah: As the same version was already in the repo.17:52
GeneralAntillesYou have to say it in the UT announcer's voice, though.17:53
jeremiahAh. My bad.17:53
X-FadeNice buzzer....17:53
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jeremiahMe read good one day.17:54
GeneralAntillesDoes the web interface warn you if the version needs bumping?17:54
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: You get a mail.17:54
X-FadeWhich says: [2009-02-19 17:50:07] REJECTED: The same or newer version (libvorbis 1.2.0.dfsg-3.1maemo0) is already in extras-devel17:55
GeneralAntillesAny way to catch that in the web interface?17:55
wazdomg, ipod touch is a good evoluton for n800... I need some vodka...17:55
X-FadeProbably. If you grep the Packages file.17:55
GeneralAntilleswazd, tabletblog readers.17:57
GeneralAntillesI don't get them.17:57
wazdoh, thats nice)17:57
wazdresisted multitouch)17:57
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luke-jrany way to get the GPS to auto-turn off if there's been no movement within 5 seconds?18:00
luke-jrand reenable when the accelerometer detects movement?18:00
qwerty12accelerometer? The N810 doesn't have one.18:00
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GeneralAntilleslol. . . .18:01
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aquatixwazd: i like this one too:
GeneralAntillesI never understood using an accelerometer to activate GPS18:02
GeneralAntillesSo, when you move it from one side of your desk to the other, you should get a new GPS fix?18:02
X-FadeGeneralAntilles: You can wave all you want with your device and it would probably not change your GPS position anyway.18:03
X-FadeYour arm is not long enough ;)18:03
GeneralAntillesX-Fade, especially not with the N810's GPS chip. ;)18:03
wazdIt's said that this thing is software based18:03
X-FadeEspecially with any end user GPS.18:03
johnxGeneralAntilles, well if it's really accurate you could just do dead reckoning :)18:03
wazdI don't beleive)18:03
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: but if you *don't* move it, the GPS is unnecessary power consumption18:03
GeneralAntillesjohnx, I want a tablet that can figure my position based on vector information from the accelerometer from the previous GPS fix.18:04
johnxif you're just leaving it sitting on your desk, why not plug it into power?18:04
johnxGeneralAntilles, hence 'dead reckoning'18:04
X-Fadeluke-jr: When you sit in a car the accelerometer won't detect your movement.18:04
luke-jrjohnx: plugged in, it will charge faster ;)18:04
X-Fadeluke-jr: Unless you accelerate or brake.18:04
luke-jrX-Fade: that's why the GPS only turns off if you stop moving18:05
GeneralAntillesjohnx, the actually technical implementation of that:
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johnxluke-jr, accelerometers don't detect movement they detect acceleration. If you're driving in a straight line at a constant speed the accelerometer will read the same as if you sit it on a desk18:05
infobot_GeneralAntilles meant: johnx, the actual technical implementation of that:
luke-jrjohnx: that's why the GPS only turns off if you stop moving18:06
luke-jrGeneralAntilles: anyhow, the repo someone linked for kismet is closed at maemo's request18:06
luke-jrand kismet isn't in Extras…18:06
johnxluke-jr, you could probably do this with dbus-scripts18:07
GeneralAntillesOh god, not this BS again.18:07
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luke-jrwhy is the internal flash card mmc1 if there's no external, and mmc2 if there is? :/18:09
johnxif you can repeat that behavior it's a bug and you should write a bug report18:11
johnxit's not normal18:11
luke-jrwhat is normal then?18:12
johnxmmc1 = external, mmc2 = internal18:12
luke-jrso mmc1 should be unmounted if no external present?18:13
johnxthat's right18:13
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luke-jris it normal for mmcblk1 to be my external?18:15
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johnxexternal is /dev/mmcblk1, internal is /dev/mmcblk018:16
luke-jrE: Package e2fsprogs has no installation candidate18:16
johnxapt-cache policy e2fsprogs18:17
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luke-jrunfortunately, removing the external microSD/miniSD seems impractical without risking breaking it18:18
johnxuhm, what?18:19
luke-jre2fsprogs:  Installed: (none)  Candidate: (none)  Version table:18:19
luke-jrjohnx: it was difficult to put in, and even more difficult to remove18:19
johnxit's not going to break though18:19
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johnxbut yeah, microsd -> sd/minisd adapters are a pain18:20
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johnxI don't remember what repo e2fsprogs is in. it's either extras, extras-devel or tools18:20
andre__jeremiah, which address in bugzilla to keep?
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dnearyX-Fade: Proposed a Karma for Applications calculation18:35
dnearyImperfect, but existing :)18:35
X-Fadedneary: Yeah, reading it.18:37
X-FadeI think the idea of karma for apps would be to show the hot apps of the moment.18:37
X-FadeJust like faving does for the news page.18:37
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wazd <- interesting site indeed)18:41
t_s_oi cant help but wonder if karel have gremlins or something...18:42
johnxit would certainly explain a lot...18:43
qwerty12Nah, just a constant hard-on over the pandora18:43
johnxoh that'll be fun :>18:43
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t_s_otech gives me many things, but hard-on? only indirectly ;)18:49
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thopiekarhow fast are packages, which were builded into extras, available on the device?18:54
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slonopotamusi did something and now image-viewer rotates image per 90 in fullscreen mode18:59
* wazd likes to have fun with thoughtfix users :)18:59
johnxslonopotamus, what is it supposed to rotate by?18:59
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wazdthopiekar: yep, saw that, that's really resistive multitouch)19:02
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johnxthen I think rotating by 90degrees is an improvement :)19:03
slonopotamus_do not ever try to rotate 2636 x 3347 image in maemo viewer19:03
thopiekarX-Fade ?19:03
slonopotamus_johnx, this damn thing first hang and then rebooted.19:04
wazdI really dream bout some kind of pocket device to manage raw photos on the go19:04
johnxslonopotamus, probably went OOM19:04
* qwerty12 prefers quiver, shame that it's closed but doesn't deter it from being good in any way19:04
wazdqueerver xD19:04
slonopotamus_johnx,probably. why not just kill something?19:04
johnxmaybe it went too long without kicking the watchdog before it the OOM killer was triggered19:05
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thopiekarhow fast are packages, which were builded into extras with maemo extras assistant, available in the repo?..19:05
slonopotamus_crap. some miserable 200k png kills device with 128mb ram.19:06
johnxit's not 200k in memory :)19:06
johnxbut yeah: don't use Nokia's image viewer19:07
slonopotamus_if it managed to load it, why it needs more memory to rotate?19:07
slonopotamus_do not tell me they create second buffer19:07
johnxok, I won't tell you that19:07
slonopotamus_they do?19:07
* johnx doesn't work for Nokia19:07
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johnxbut seriously, don't waste time on that program19:08
slonopotamus_johnx, that's why i say 'they'19:08
slonopotamus_johnx, :P19:08
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slonopotamus_but really. it's hard to read rotated image.19:09
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johnxturn your device sideways :)19:13
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thopiekarcould someone please tell my how the folder is called19:18
thopiekar.. in .MyDocs for music?19:18 I think19:18
thopiekarcould you please check it out for me?19:19
wndthere's ~/MyDocs/.sounds19:19
thopiekarok thanks you two19:19
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* Stskeeps takes a look at bundyo's cx3110x-wifi-patch19:32
johnxooooh, what's it do?19:32
Stskeepswell it is for 770 and he claims it builds under newer kernels19:33
johnxah, well that's awesome. did you dig up a card for your shiny new tablet yet? :)19:34
Stskeepsin the mail monday hopefully19:34
mikkov_qwerty12: roxterm's postinst is buggy
mikkov_qwerty12: but you already read it ;)19:34
qwerty12mikkov_, I saw :/, thank you for pointing it out- will fix (and find a better way of setting the defaults)19:35
Stskeepsrzr: did wifi ever work under nitdroid-770?19:36
rzrno i had no AP that time19:37
rzrand it wasnt working19:37
rzrbut i've been told it could be supported19:37
mikkov_qwerty12: using a wrapper script to start roxterm is one solution19:38
qwerty12I like that idea, will look into it if I can't find a way to do it directly. Thanks! :)19:39
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Stskeepsjohnx: at least i got cx3110x 1.2 working on the kernel which seems a hell lot saner than 0.8.519:43
Stskeepswhich made "blind" scans constantly19:43
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Stskeepswhat is SoftMAC anyway? it doesn't communicate directly with chip i guess19:52
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qwerty12mikkov_, fixed it in the version sent to the builder. Just got to wait now :). Thanks again :)19:54
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thopiekarare these paths right? N800: internal mmc: /media/mmc2/ ; external: mmc1 | N810: SD/MMC mmc1?19:59
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johnxare you seeing something different?20:00
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ShadowJKiirc if you boot without card in the minisd slot, they get swapped around?20:01
thopiekarmy N800 is at a repair shop near me.. so I can't look whether its right :)20:01
thopiekarjohnx: thanks anyway..20:01
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mgedminI don't think that's the case...20:03
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mgedminI think mmc1 is always the external one20:04
mgedminboth on n810 and on n80020:04
mgedminI only have a n810, and I'm not willing to pull out my external card to test it20:04
johnxit appears that some people's tablets have slightly strange behavior in that regard20:07
Meizirkki/dev/mmcblk1 is external card in maemo, but wherever else (Mer, Ubuntu, Deblet, Initfs) the external card is always /dev/mmcblk020:07
johnxfor you, maybe20:08
Stskeepsit isnt always like that :P there's a whole bug on it20:08
MeizirkkiBut mount points under /media are always the same in maemo20:08
johnxin over a year playing with debian on n800 I never saw my cards 'swapped'20:08
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* Stskeeps glances over at the 77020:09
Stskeepsi wouldn't mind a black n800.20:10
wazdgoogle just gave me "Keysicho" captcha :)20:11
wazdthats not me! :(20:11
Stskeepshmm, Stantum is a bit like lcuk's multitouc20:12
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Stskeepswb qwerty12_mer20:15
qwerty12_merhi again :)20:16
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qwerty12_merthink i've merized maemo-xkb-plugin successfully...20:17
Stskeepsxkb-plugin? the CPA?20:17
qwerty12_merboth, applet & cpa from that garage link you gave me20:18
luke-jrhow does one install 'diff'? it conflicts with busybox :/20:18
Stskeepsluke-jr: welcome to hell.maemo.org20:19
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wazdSorry, couldn't stand it :)20:21
wazdNew Airbus is just so awesome)20:21
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johnxluke-jr, that's part of the inspiration for mer20:23
wazdStskeeps: I think we should port Mer to Airbus xD20:24
GeneralAntilleswazd, you're a bad person. :P20:24
luke-jrjohnx: is it solvable?20:24
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johnxluke-jr, in mer: yes, we use coreutils20:25
wazdGeneralAntilles: That's me :P20:25
luke-jrshort of installing Gentoo, I mean?20:25
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wazdGeneralAntilles: those iPod users on thoughtfix's blog are really fun)20:25
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johnxblagh. Stskeeps I found you the thread that *used* to pictures of a black N800...but it's just broken links now :/20:27
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wazdGeneralAntilles: they are like "For handwrittin notes I carry old fashioned tree-based options" :)20:28
GeneralAntillestimeless, ping?20:28
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luke-jram I actually required to ahve a vfat on my MMC?20:28
GeneralAntillesjohnx, that was ToughtFix.20:28
GeneralAntillesShould be on his blog.20:28
johnxGeneralAntilles, someone else20:28
johnxthoughtfix's tablet is terrifying red+black :P20:28
GeneralAntillesIt WAS black20:29
GeneralAntillesThat's new20:29
johnxand this:
GeneralAntillesWell, to me.20:29
johnxluke-jr, of course not20:29
GeneralAntillesI just remember the shot from when he got his N81020:29
GeneralAntillesOK, what would you call a boot logo package?20:29
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wazdI can make you any n800 color you want :)20:30
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GeneralAntilles" Splash Screen" " Startup Images" " Boot Logo"? Something else?20:30
* thopiekar has added today 5 multisource-packages to extras(-devel) [tre,streamripper,xbitmaps,lynx,debianutils] and just waits for lynx to build xterm...20:30
luke-jrerr, my mmcblk1 disappeared while I was getting e2fsprogs :x20:31 boot? O-o20:31
wazdhave I missed something?)20:31
GeneralAntilleswazd, qwerty12 put together a startup screen package for me.20:32
GeneralAntillesI'm putting the finishing touches on it.20:32
GeneralAntillesIt replaces the Nokia logo, progress bar, and hands with stuff.20:32
luke-jrjohnx: removed miniSD successfuly, rebooting to see mmc assignments20:32
wazdcan I take a look?)20:32
luke-jr/dev/mmcblk0p1 on /media/mmc2 type vfat (rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,noatime,nodiratime,uid=29999,fmask=0133,dmask=0000,codepage=cp437,iocharset=iso8859-1,shortname=mixed,utf8)20:34
qwerty12_N800GeneralAntilles: I didn't include the hands because the iTT  attachment have it in the zip :/20:34
qwerty12_N800s/have/didn't have/20:34
infobot_qwerty12_N800 meant: GeneralAntilles: I didn't include the hands because the iTT  attachment didn't have it in the zip :/20:34
johnxwazd, nice find :)20:34
Stskeepswazd: if i had mer on airbus i would be slightly more afraid to fly.20:35
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800, I'm assuming I can just add another dpkg-divert line to the postrm and preinsts for the hands, right.20:35
luke-jrhow am I *supposed* to put the miniSD in?20:35
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qwerty12_N800GeneralAntilles: yep, and a dh_install line in the rules file20:35
GeneralAntillesAh, missed that one.20:36
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GeneralAntillesGoing with " Startup Screen" barring better input.20:37
thopiekarfor everyone who wants to recorde internetradio-streams on the iTT.. check this out: :)20:38
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luke-jrstupid miniSD won't go in all the way :zx20:40
Stskeepseh, sure you are putting it in right?20:41
Stskeepslike, right rotation20:42
luke-jrscrewdriver helped20:42
luke-jrStskeeps: just can't get my fingers to push it far enough20:42
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zs1hi, i got internet connection on my n810 via usb0 but when i am trying to use browser or other app it doesn't work. I still can do app-get update or ping. How can I fix it?20:47
Stskeepsget a dummy connection20:49
thopiekaryou need a dummy-connection entry.. like the entry of your wlan, etc... If you install pc-connection in the program manager it should create such a dummy-entry20:49
thopiekarStskeeps: you were faster but I have more details..20:49
zs1thopiekar: you mean apt-get install pc-connection?20:51
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thopiekarzs1: yes but use better the application manager..20:51
thopiekaror however its called in english..20:51
zs1thopiekar: Couldn't find package pc-connection20:51
thopiekarapt-get in xterm could break diablo'S apt..20:52
thopiekarusing latest diablo?20:52
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zs1thopiekar: yes20:52
thopiekarall repos installed from ?20:52
zs1thopiekar: no20:53
thopiekarthen do so..20:53
zs1i have only 3 repos20:53
thopiekarthese are the basic one..20:53
thopiekaryou would need minimaly diablo-extras or -extras-devel..20:54
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GeneralAntilleszs1, I'm assuming you're running the latest Diablo?20:55
zs1yes i do20:56
thopiekarGeneralAntilles: I already asked that before :)20:56
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GeneralAntillesIs this helpful?
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luke-jrmy 4 GB microSD card included a bad partition table :p21:02
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zs1thopiekar: did you mean maemo-pc-connectivity ?21:04
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Stskeepsi am really going to hit someone if this theory of mine is true..21:05
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* thopiekar is listening..21:06
Stskeeps(read: we have -probably- been able to have modern kernels with or without open source wifi drivers for ages)21:06
pupnik_see the guy who got usb webcam working on N810?21:06
thopiekarpupnik_: how was his name?21:07
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thopiekarpupnik_: hmm..21:10
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luke-jrcan I use LVM2 on N810?21:10
pupnik_gareth porter!!!21:10
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thopiekarpupnik_:  are you the one who was looking TV (DVB-T) on his tablet?^^21:11
qwerty12_N800hi daperl21:11
thopiekarpupnik_: gareth porter... and his nick?...21:12
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: as far as i can see, it has been possible for quite a while to realize umac.ko is just a piece of software, not some special thing that attaches to a lot of kernel functions21:12
Stskeepswhich is why poky linux can move umac.ko from 2.6.16 to 2.6.1821:12
pupnik_gareth porter on antiwar radio soon!  http://kaosradioaustin.org21:12
Stskeepslo daperl21:12
Shadow_Mdoes vncviewer support proxy21:13
Stskeepshad a good weekend with the son?21:13
daperlyo yo yo21:13
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: which means to support a new kernel, strip the kernel headers and copy them from the dummy umac ko21:13
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Stskeepsand do optional changes to the (open source) cx3110x driver21:14
luke-jrwhat does Maemo do if an on-boot mount fails?21:14
Stskeepsfstab? it doesnt even try21:14
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luke-jrso how do I get things to mount on boot?21:15
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luke-jrjohnx: curiously, fstab lists mmcblk0p1 as /mnt/mmc1 -- maybe related to when the order is screwy21:15
thopiekarCould someone please look whether the package called *streamripper* is available on extras?21:16
* timeless looks around21:20
timelessso, i'm looking for more testing :)21:21
timelessanyone wanna test strings? :)21:21
* GeneralAntilles apparently can't post a rebuttal on tabletblog. . . .21:22
Stskeepsif user = GeneralAntilles: ban? :P21:23
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, I'm trying to login with my gmail account and it keeps complaining that the owner of the blog doesn't allow anonymous comments.21:23
GeneralAntillesOh well, his readership will just have to continue in their silly ignorance. ;)21:23
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luke-jrwhat is "pool"?21:51
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luke-jror rather
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luke-jrthe main page suggests it is SDK only :/21:54
luke-jrany reason I can't use a package from it on the N810?21:54
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CorsacStskeeps: is it easy to start another desktop environment than hildon on mer/22:17
Stskeepsfairly, if you have a n81022:17
Macershit. ups still hasn't shown up yet22:18
Maceri really want my goddamn artigo22:18
CorsacStskeeps: I have22:21
StskeepsCorsac: look at andrewfblack's lxde guide then22:21
Corsacon w.m.o?22:22
Stskeepsw.m.o? you on iTT22:22
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slonopotamuswhat image viewer do you recommend instead of default one? it eats all my ram :(22:30
slonopotamusin extras?22:31
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luke-jrso nwo that's I've tried googling it.. how do I get swap to automount?22:40
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timelE61ihEllo world23:15
qwerty12_N800hi timelE61i23:15
* timelE61i added rhapsodyapplet to the l10n pack23:15
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timelE61iqwerty, so... I need uninstall help23:19
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qwerty12_N800i can try & help :-)23:20
* RST38h yawns and lazily curses SigmaTel23:20
ssvbStskeeps: as I see, you are hacking cx3110x driver for 770 now, have you checked these patches: ?23:20
RST38hBastards shifted the actual frame buffer address by 1 pixel (2 bytes)23:21
timelE61ibasically, i somehow need to save the original files each of my locale packs replaces23:21
Stskeepsssvb: yup, i have them included23:22
Stskeepsexcept for 770_performance_improvements, it didn't apply cleanly to 1.223:22
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timelE61iif my packages are upgraded, i need to *not* touch the backup23:23
GeneralAntillesapt-get install <Nokia's l10n packages> in the postrm? :P23:23
ssvbStskeeps: that's bad, is it hard to tweak it?23:23
timelE61iBut when my packages are removed, i need to restore the files23:23
Stskeepsssvb: not sure, but on the other hand i have a sane cx3110x driver that scans properly and so on23:24
timelE61iGan: i don't think they're available online23:24
ssvbStskeeps: good wlan performance is nice to have on 770 because USB is slow23:24
qwerty12_N800timelE61i: use an if -e (or is it -x - cant remember) statement?23:24
GeneralAntillestimelE61i, not in the SSU repo?23:24
timelE61iAnd i wonder if dpkg would be holding a lock :)23:24
* GeneralAntilles was be facetious anyway.23:24
qwerty12_N800timelE61i: no, wait.23:24
Stskeepsssvb: besides that, i realized earlier umac.ko is just a library, you can replace the kernel modinfo structures and adapt it to newer kernels23:24
Stskeepslike poky linux did with 2.6.18 patch23:24
Stskeepsssvb: so i'm wondering if it means cx3110x can be further adapted to later kernels23:25
timelE61igan: dunno, you could check23:25
Stskeeps(of course it would be nice to have stlc45xx for 770 but..)23:25
timelE61iWe were too lazy to find the password for ssu :)23:25
timelE61iBesides device could be offlne23:26
ssvbStskeeps: that would be really great if wlan works with newer kernels in some way23:26
qwerty12_N800timelE61i: apt source ;)23:26
Stskeepsssvb: i've already moved from 0.8.5 to 1.2 cx3110x, so maybe there is hope23:26
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800 has the password, I'm sure.23:26
Stskeepsi could consider to name my kid if i have one, the SSU password..23:27
ssvbStskeeps: anyway, regarding performance, getting true 802.11g speed would be really nice to have, I might try to see what is needed to port the patch to 1.223:27
luke-jrany sane way to purge /usr/locale except en_GB, en_US, and ja?23:27
ssvbStskeeps: though no promises of course23:27
Stskeepsssvb: alright - it did apply in some spots but failed in others23:27
Stskeepsi got a 770 donated and so far it seems to work with wifi, and doesn't seem to die with .n networks nearby..23:28
timelE61iluke: there's a locale purge package23:28
Stskeeps(i think.)23:28
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luke-jrtimelE61i: does it work in a sane fashon?23:28
* timelE61i shrugs23:28
* timelE61i doesn't do that23:28
timelE61iw/o locales, how could i file amusing bugs?23:29
luke-jr21 MB of waste?23:29
Stskeepsuntil you get a japanese gf23:29
vcelltimelE61i: you could just keep making people apply your package till you get it right.  might mean a marathon coding session though23:29
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timelE61iVcell: have you applied it lately?23:30
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qwerty12_N800timelE61i: when dpkg runs a prerm script etc, it runs with a $1 = what it is doing. So if we are upgrading, the script is ran with upgrade etc. so in your script, just have something like [ if $1 = upgrade ]; then etc23:30
vcellim not in -US23:30
vcelland the amount of regular apps i run i wouldnt be able to tell it worked anyway23:31
qwerty12_N800vcell: they're not bad actually, even  I use -US now...23:31
vcellnobody has ported apps to my dialect yet23:31
luke-jrStskeeps: that's why I'm keeping ja locale?23:32
timelE61iI just installed a virus on my s60 phone via bt23:32
timelE61iMy n810 sent me an sis file !23:32
vcell"ey up, th' interwebs loading, best get a cuppa"23:32
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qwerty12_N800vcell: that's en_GB_DODGYNORTH23:33
vcellyeah likely23:33
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* vcell splutters23:33
Macerwell.. got my artigo23:33
Macerfinally got it to boot heh23:34
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timelE61ivcell: seriously, i'd hope anyone here would prefer my locale over the nokia native23:35
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Stskeepswas octave ported to tablets?23:38
Stskeepsbecause i want it.23:38
b-manhello Stskeeps23:38
jaem_afkgood morning!23:38
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qwerty12_N800Stskeeps: think lardman has some old packages...23:39
b-manjaem_afk: it's afternoon here :P23:39
Stskeepsbecause it might actually save me from going totally insane with this linear algebra course23:39
jaemb-man: it is here too, but I thought we used UGT?23:40
* vcell just watched that today23:40
qwerty12_N800if you wanna build it yourself (the build deps are a-plenty), make sure to compile it to use the vfp23:41
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: i think it might be a reason to use mer.. :P23:41
vcelltimelE61i: im ok with the wording, most dialogs go over my head, its less what they say, more that they come up at right times23:41
vcellim used to working on international computers without translation23:41
jaemalso xcas - if anyone feels like building it before I get time, I'd be obliged23:41
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps: you'll still have to build it yourself (although apt-get build-dep octave3.1 will be easier)23:42
timelE61iwhat's an intl. computer?23:42
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jaemone that you payed a fortune to get shipped to you23:42
jaema larger fortune if you used UPS23:42
Stskeepsvcell: yes, i have similar feelings23:42
jaemoh wait... that's my problem23:43
vcellone with software from multiple computers and settings configured for users in different countries23:43
vcellmultiple countries23:43
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Macergo artigo go23:44
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, could I use Mer as my build and packaging machine?23:44
Macerwith your C7 beastly CPU23:44
Macerthis thing is the size of 2 n800 stacked on top of one another lying flat23:44
Macerit's awesome23:44
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: if for maemo, only with scratchbox installed.. if for mer, if it builds on x86, it probably builds in our armel builders too :P23:44
timelE61iGan: that's what i'm doing23:44
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: (occasionally a libc6 dependancy maemo can't satisfy shows up)23:45
timelE61iI'm building my locales in mer-vmdk23:45
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, well, packaging up source packages for the autobuilder?23:45
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: yeah, sure23:45
timelE61iAnd installing on maemo-n8x023:45
timelE61iGan: sure, i do that :)23:45
Macersts... i should install mer on it! :-D23:45
GeneralAntillesI'm going to have to break down at some point and either fix my Beagle or buy a cheap x86 rig. ;)23:46
MacerGeneralAntilles: get an artigo :)23:46
vcellfix your beagle23:46
Macerc7 ftw23:46
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: beagle runs mer now too ;P23:47
Stskeepsthen again, it did run maemo too23:47
GeneralAntillesvcell, that's been my intention for a while.23:47
Macersomething special about now having an intel or amd cpu in this thing23:47
vcellor ill call the ASPCA23:47
Macerit reminds me of the days of the ppc23:47
GeneralAntillesBut I fail totally at managing to accomplish it.23:47
GeneralAntillesI'm predicting it's going to end up getting fixed at the Summit.23:47
vcelllol or it will be buried in the backyard23:47
Macerah yes... "via... the other cpu"23:48
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, I'll let you play with my Newton if you bring a working recovery card. :P23:48
Macerit's odd that intel and amd are working so hard on their low power stuff23:48
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: so you don't even get serial output?23:48
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, nah, I get serial output.23:48
Stskeepsjust no uboot prompt?23:48
Maceras if out the blue they've decided there might be money to be made from extremely compact low power cpu design23:48
vcellmacer, not odd - required23:48
GeneralAntillesand I only managed to get it to use a recovery card once.23:48
Macervcell: i suppose... via and arm are way ahead of the giants23:49
Stskeepsand proceeded to mess it up again? ;)23:49
GeneralAntillesMacer, ARM is a giant. ;)23:49
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, I guess.23:49
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, I don't much care for the instructions on their wiki.23:49
* vcell this big *holds out his arms*23:49
Macerdoes arm even produce their own cpus though?23:49
GeneralAntillesThere's an array of uboot and xloader binaries but I'm not sure which ones to use for what.23:49
Macerdon't they just lic the tech and let their customers do it?23:50
vcellbbl, coughing fit23:50
mikkov_I would have uploaded octave to extras but the thing doesn't build for armel with this crappy toolkit23:52
Macernice to see it's booting from the usb cdrom :)23:52
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: heh, usb recovery looks freaky23:52
Macerprogress heh.. damnit.. have to hook up this network cable .. shti23:52
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: but regarding uboot binaries there are referred some23:53
* timelE61i slip23:53
Maceranybody here use twin before?23:53
* timelE61i slips23:53
qwerty12_N800mikkov_: i'd like to see the cs2008 toolchain in the autobuilder :>, it's the only way i can get aircrack-ng built in my sbox23:53
Macerkind of like... a txt based window manger .. not X but somethig you could ssh to and use with moving windows etc..23:53
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, I think I need to get another SD card.23:53
StskeepstimelE61i: ice and mobile phone chatting while walking doesn't go together23:53
Macerseems pretty good23:53
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: plausible.. my beagle seemed to eat mine23:53
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timelE61iMore like walking and ice don't go together23:55
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GeneralAntillestimelE61i, watch the sidewalk, not your phone. :P23:55
StskeepstimelE61i: i am starting to get some rather weird mental images of your rl behaviour when you tell some of your experiences with walk-while-chatting :P23:56
timelE61igan: right call, but too late23:56
timelE61iI'm home23:56
jaemmacer: no, ARM doesn't manufacture anything23:56
GeneralAntillesjaem, except for their prototypes, I guess.23:56
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jaemGA, I'd presume they still get someone else to fab those...23:58
GeneralAntillesYeah, probably right. Didn't IBM put together the 32nm prototype?23:59
RST38hARM has no fabs, afaik23:59
* timelE61i boggles23:59
jaemhence "fabless semi"23:59
timelE61ii just woke up my laptop and outlook said it's connection was restored23:59
jaemGA: I usually put together ASICS for myself... with tweezers and a magnifying glass23:59
timelE61iBut it needs a vpn, and my wifi wasn't even established23:59
GeneralAntillesjaem, how do you do that? "Very carefully." :P23:59

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