IRC log of #maemo for Wednesday, 2009-01-14

* qwerty12_N800 needs keeps reminding himself to gtfo maemo-users00:00
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* Stskeeps notes cutting internet connection when X dies is not cool.00:05
GrackleIs that what happens with networkmangler?00:06
Stskeepsi don't like NM but we dont have ICD, so00:06
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johnxyou can set it to be system wide, then it does some daemon-y thing00:07
johnxand ICD would be awesome...if it wasn't closed source. yay Nokia!00:07
* qwerty12_N800 wishes that they would. at least, open icd1. in some respects, it performed better than icd2.00:08
woglinde*g* I think ICD2 is souch a bad codebase they dont want to show it00:09
johnxlulz...I'll write my own based on zenity and wirelesstools00:10
johnxdisturbingly I can picture how it would work O_o00:10
qwerty12_N800yeah, better than nm :)00:11
johnxmaybe a python statusbar applet to control it...00:13
johnxneeds like 6 .png icons and a dropdown menu00:13
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lcukgahhhh i could really do with kot00:16
woglindeifup/down with guessnet and wpa_supplicant rockz00:16
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qwerty12_N800~summon KotCzarny for lcuk00:18
infobotapt takes out 20 clean, identical-looking phones, some extra hands, and pretends to be a telemarketer for a large corporation, so he gets delivered a phonelist containing KotCzarny for lcuk's coordinates00:18
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lcuk:) if only.  hes the only person so far thats had his head deep enough into the code that we can discuss technicalities and get a decent response :)00:21
qwerty12_N800isn't he still around on freenode?00:22
lcukdo nokia have helicopter gunships and extraction teams?00:22
lcukqwerty, he went home to poland, there was a lady involved i think :)00:22
johnxlcuk, left freenode for poland?00:23
johnxdoes poland have fewer netsplits?00:23
qwerty12_N800poland has vodka :p00:23
* johnx settles for good kirin beer and freenode/#maemo :)00:24
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unixSnobare there multiple passwords to sipphone accounts?00:28
unixSnobmy web password isn't working on my ATA00:28
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roopeGood morning.00:33
roope... or some other time of day.00:34
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Jaffawazd: sorry, I'm with RST38h - I think Titan looks a bit too Windows 3.1ish, and doesn't fit with the coolness of the mer logo/background/loading screen00:35
Stskeepswazd: was my choice to take in titan :)00:36
Stskeepsas it was first and best theme that actually worked fully00:36
Stskeepsbut yes, there might be a replacement00:36
JaffaPlankton's open source, isn't it? Or does it not work in the fremantle hildon-desktop?00:36
unixSnobanyone have a gizmo account?00:36
StskeepsJaffa: plankton is plankton..00:36
Stskeepsbut yes, it's open source and all, but definately fitting worse into the artwork than titan ;)00:37
JaffaPersonally, I think looks better than Titan; but dunno how well it'll work with your compositing stuff.00:38
JaffaMaking any headway on the i18n issue, btw?00:38
Stskeepssitting and looking on it00:38
StskeepsJaffa: the problem is really - some locales work00:39
Stskeepsand majority doesn't00:39
unixSnobany way to show the password in the voip accounts?00:40
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timelessis there a page that talks about F<x> key mapping in maemo?00:41
Jaffatimeless: i.e. full screen = F6, home = F5 etc?00:42
wazdJaffa: I was thinking to make Mer theme00:42
Jaffawazd: cool00:42
Jaffatimeless: I'm sure it's in one of the official docs under maemo.org00:42
wazdJaffa: Titan is temporary I suppose00:42
timelessis something that comes up00:42
timelessbut calling that 'official' is um...00:42
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timelessa pdf is not what i'd call useful documentation00:43
wazdJaffa: Never knew that Titan looks like win 3.1... Everybody says (and it was concerned to be) pretty modern sleek theme00:43
lcukits perfect00:44
Jaffatimeless: I know. Finding official Maemo documentation is a nightmare since someone had the "bright" idea of making them all PDFs with no HTML equivalent.00:44
timeless*user content* ?00:45
Jaffawazd: Just my IMHO. I know some people like it, and that's absolutely fine. Just not my cup of tea, I'm afraid.00:45
lcukthemes are user customizable for a reason, you will never ever have a one size fits all00:46
Jaffatimeless: is a handy chart00:46
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Jaffalcuk: absolutely00:46
StskeepsJaffa: btw wazd is a bit touchy about any of his stuff being compared with windows ;)00:46
JaffaStskeeps: OK, how about it's very OS/2 Warpey? ;-)00:46
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Stskeeps <- look at post 10, click in post 1100:46
lcukheh wazd and microsoft up a tree00:47
JaffaStskeeps: indeed, was here earlier :)00:47
StskeepsJaffa: true :)00:47
lcukbut being perfectly honest :: wow at his simple lines :)00:48
wazdstskeeps: thats not a problem with MS, I'm just kidding00:48
Stskeepswazd: hehe, i'm kidding too :>00:48
wazdstskeeps: I've just got in a real bad situation with that copycat wallpaper00:48
unixSnobanyone change their gizmo password before?  does it take a long time for the account to start working again?00:48
lcukwazd, of course you have but how else can you show underwater scenes00:49
Stskeepslcuk: pitch black!00:50
Stskeeps(which was the uncreative first background of mer)00:50
StskeepsJaffa: okay, so, the problem is that the locale strings are not there at all00:52
Stskeepsprevious versions had them00:52
Stskeepsin the fremantle pre-alpha SDK packages00:53
Stskeepsthere are -some-, but definately not all00:53
JaffaAh, translation teams will be late in the plan.00:54
StskeepsJaffa: not even engineering english is there though00:54
Stskeepsand the strings used to be there00:54
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* Stskeeps ponders hotpatching maemo-af-desktop just so it stops saying home_ap_home_view00:55
lcukStskeeps, its not a big deal as long as we document it as we notice them00:55
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JaffaIs there a basic heuristic for >50% of the time turning the key into something sensible enough?00:56
StskeepsJaffa: google for key00:56
Stskeeps(i'm not kidding)00:56
Stskeeps(try google sfil_li_modified_today)00:57
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Stskeepswith filetype:po00:58
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Stskeepsanyhow. i actually anticipated this - if anyone wants to join in and add some strings, there's a mer-translations group on launchpad.01:00
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Stskeepsit's pretty obvious to figure out what to add to the .po files when you google, and which branch to check out01:01
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JaffaAny further missing ones could be filled in with something like: s/^.*?_\w\w_(.*)/$1/; then _ -> ' ' and capitalise every word.01:01
JaffaStskeeps: ah, so they exist in maemo svn not just any of the packages yet?01:02
StskeepsJaffa: they exist in older versions01:02
Stskeepsi have utterly no idea why they're no part of the new .po's01:02
Stskeepslet's take home_ap_home_view as example. it's not there for some silly reason. google home_ap_home_view filetype:po  , it suggests it's maemo-af-desktop-l10n , so you 'bzr branch lp:~mer-translations/m-r/maemo-af-desktop-i10n' add in the 3 lines of translation from your google match, bzr commit with a commit message, bzr push01:05
Stskeepsor, we ask nokia where they went, which could take a while, instead of a couple of hours of work of the immediate things we can see are missing01:06
JaffaFairly drudgerous work, tho'01:09
Stskeepsthink i'll file a bug and see what they say01:09
lcuk+1 :) seems like a sensible option01:10
qwerty12_N800fixed in fremantle / wait for the production release :p01:10
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: that'd send me into a raging fit01:11
qwerty12_N800it would be cool if the gettext "id's" looked pretty "normal"01:13
Stskeepsi think it's okay they stand out01:13
Stskeepsforces the developer to do something about it01:13
JaffaStskeeps: what font are you using in your screenshots at the moment?01:14
StskeepsJaffa: i'm actually not sure01:14
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Stskeepsit's not nokia, for certain01:14
JaffaThe Android ones look pretty sweet and have a compatible licence, FWIW01:15
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Stskeepsyeah, but are they compatible with X? :P01:15
JaffaThey're just TTFs01:15
thiagosshow do I install soappy into maemo?01:15
JaffaStskeeps: I use 'Droid Sans' in Notes in diablo as a nicer font (and maybe even Droid Sans Mono in Terminal, I forget)01:15
johnxStskeeps, We're probably using fonts derived from the Vera Bitstream collection01:16
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Stskeepsdamnit, i didn't hit bug 400001:18
Jaffa...and the git versions (including ttf binaries);a=tree;f=data/fonts01:18
Stskeeps4001 :/01:18
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, don't worry. There's always 5000 ;)01:18
Jaffaqwerty12_N800: betcha #5000 will be resolved "fixed in harmattan" ;-)01:19
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Stskeepsmy Mer actually discovers my two machines in file chooser01:20
timelessjaffa: is that a good thing?01:20
timelessthat we only get 1000 bugs between today and harmattan's release?01:20
qwerty12_N800Fremantle seems, to me, to be the "Oh shit!" release. I wonder what Harmattan will be like :)01:20
timelessdid you paste the string i mentioned into the top field?01:20
timelessoops, wrong window01:20
Jaffatimeless: No, only 1000 bugs between today and when bugs are only dealt with in a release which is still ~6 months away ;-)01:20
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lcukwhos gonna be the first to pitch up a tent in Fremantle WA ?01:21
Stskeepslcuk: next summit, eh?01:21
lcukwould be nice :)01:21
Jaffaqwerty12_N800: "oh shit, everyone's UI's better than us" or "oh shit, we need to rejig some things" or "oh shit, we haven't released something for a while, better do something"? ;-)01:21
lcukshould we start naming apps after attractions in the area ;)01:22
qwerty12_N800Jaffa, I choose 2) :)01:22
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* Jaffa would like to hope it's 1 *and* 2. And that the Fremantle UI'll get us further away from desktop computer metaphors which just don't work on a device this size.01:24
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johnxhuh? WA as in Washington State, USA?01:26
Stskeepswestern australia? :P01:26
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johnxah, sad, yeah it's OZ01:27
Stskeepsjohnx: saw the explanation for home_ap_home_view?01:28
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johnxStskeeps, we don't localizations (a .po file) that works with it right now?01:28
Stskeepsjohnx: more like we have the .po files but they are missing some things :)01:28
Stskeepssome things are there but some are not - some that -used- to be there01:29
johnxah, I assume Nokia is working on some new translations?01:29
Stskeepsi guess01:29
Stskeepsbut english translations? :P01:29
johnxwell, for now we can release for people who speak gettext01:29
* Stskeeps notes to himself NM isn't that stable at connections and ponders what it was he fixed in deblet01:30
johnxGettext version: download link   - US English: coming soon01:30
qwerty12_N800johnx, en_GB version: download link   - English: coming soon :p01:30
Stskeepswazd: any particular reason for the big white stripe?01:31
johnxwazd, i like it. I'm not sure about the bubbles though01:31
Jaffawazd: Nice. I always get concerned about relatively large edges/changes in wallpaper backgrounds. Although, I suppose the coral, the white light and the bubbles could be more subdued in the wallpaper version01:31
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Stskeepswazd: looks great though, like all your work :)01:31
Stskeepsjohnx: did you try out the new rescue menu yet? :>01:32
johnxnot yet, still finishing off f-b-w and h-d-e after some interruptions :)01:32
Stskeepsi'll take a look at hildon-icons then01:33
wazdwell, white stripe is kinda ray of light :)01:33
wazdmaybe it's too bright01:33
Jaffawazd: works on a startup screen, I think.01:33
wazdIt still needs a lot of light'n'shadow work so it's just fyi :)01:34
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wazdBut I still think that Mer should leave current wallpaper as default01:43
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wazdI bet that there are thousands more such pics and photos, so what01:43
johnxwazd, I agree01:43
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Jaffawazd: I think there should be a shiny mer start-up screen, a shiny mer wallpaper (the default if any nokia-provided wallpaper is currently selected, say) and a shiny mer theme01:43
johnxwazd, I know I've seen wallpapers similar to that one for quite a long time01:44
wazdYep, thats pretty confusing for me, but whatever, it's great wallpaper anyway01:44
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Jaffas/shiny/cool/ to avoid any confusion :)01:44
wazdCause corals are really bad stuff for wallpaper01:44
wazdmuch detail noise01:45
Jaffawazd: agreed 100%. But if it was faded out to be more subtle, it might work01:45
wazdAnd if I remove corals, then (It's magic!) it appears to be Win 701:45
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wazdLife was so great without Win 7 :)01:46
wazdhello there01:46
tehforumHello, wazd.01:47
timelessw7 is quite nice01:47
johnxtehforum, they foojacked his wallpaper idea01:47
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tehforumI haven't used torrents to download it yet, because the download speeds were crappy from the ms servers01:47
JaffaAnyway, I should bed since the kids(!) are asleep01:48
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tehforumunderstandable really with 3gb file, thousands of people wanting it at any given time01:48
tehforumBut, what is the wallpaper idea?01:48
wazdJaffa: aw, I forgot to congratulate you :)01:49
Jaffawazd: no probs; thanks :-)01:49
wazdJaffa: hope they doesn't look like win7 xD01:49
johnxJaffa, glad to hear everything went so smoothly that the kids are even willing to sleep :)01:49
tehforumSomeone fill me in? :p01:50
Jaffawazd: nah, just each other ( <-- proud father :-))01:50
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JaffaAnyway, g'night01:50
tehforumGood night01:51
tehforumyou're from England?01:51
wazdJaffa: superqute :)01:51
wazdJaffa: gnite01:51
Jaffatehforum: aye01:51
tehforumSame :)01:51
JaffaQuite a few of us are. Some of us are proper Brits from up north too :)01:52
tehforumFrom north01:52
tehforumHow about the center?01:52
* Jaffa 's in the centre atm.01:52
qwerty12_N800North? Nah, it's all about the South :p01:52
tehforumNorth vs Center vs South01:53
tehforumBring it on :p01:53
lcuk /ignore birmingham01:53
* Jaffa is from the north (nr. Manchester), lives in the centre (Rugby) and works in the south (London)01:53
tehforumYou'll have to beat yourself up in that case01:54
* Jaffa applies the NP-complete Travelling Salesman problem to his life. I'll go offline for a non-polynomial amount of time to compute it.01:54
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tehforumThere's a maemo uk channel I think01:55
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tehforumWhy is it that when you switch from an mplayer window to something else it just "freezes"01:57
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tehforumand you have to click on the three green one blue square thing to get rid of the "freezing"01:58
johnxtehforum, mplayers uses neat hacks to get the display updates as fast as possible01:58
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tehforumTwas fast02:00
tehforumThank you, johnx02:00
Stskeepsjohnx: we so need dsme-tools and the wifi power saver..02:00
Stskeepscan feel my tablet getting hot02:00 "new charger" barely keeps up with battery drain in mer right now02:01
tehforumIs there anyway that I could see the gmplauncher window switching from a video?02:01
johnxStskeeps, ok, just submitted h-d-e and f-b-w to builder. don't care if they even build right now, just need sleep.02:05
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johnx<- moved to London time O_o02:05
wazdnite sts02:05
wazdcan somebody explain how to setup tablet -> desktop ssh connection?)02:06
wazdI've installed openssh to the tablet and can't locate it02:06
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tehforumWhat are peoples wpm's on their n810 keyboard, or n800 touch?02:09
tehforumI say I'm pretty fast after a year of use02:09
tehforumUsing proper capitalization02:09
tehforumAmd all that other stuff02:09
tehforumssh from tablet to linux bos?02:11
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tehforumWould that help?02:11
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Stskeepswazd: regarding mer theme, we could maybe draw inspiration from modern "smartphone" uis, .. what thoughts do you have on this topic?02:22
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wazdback for a while02:30
wazdtehforum: thanks, I'll check it02:30
Stskeepshehe.. im prolly going to bed soon. actually. already there :P02:30
wazdStskeeps: well, right now I haven't got any specific ideas bout theme, but I think I can still make something unique :)02:31
Stskeepsalright :)02:31
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wazdAnd as for wallpaper: if somebody thinks that I'm such a dumbass that I'll consciously copycat windows wallpaper and claim that I did it on my own, well, bad for him :)02:35
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lcukwazd :D02:37
wazdI actually can't even google it in descent resolution)02:37
lcukwazd, here you go, i found one
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wazdlcuk: bastard :)02:40
* lcuk tips his hat02:41
lcukyou want a beer02:41
wazdI already got mine :)02:41
lcukcool, you did more to mer ;)02:41
wazdWell, microsoft has very special point of view at how water looks :)02:42
lcuki personally feel the brightness is too great on any of these images02:43
lcuki dont like having hotspots in backgrounds02:43
lcukit draws the eye02:43
wazd <- here it is02:43
wazdlcuk: yep, hete them too02:44
lcukhavign said that ive got a massive image of earth on mine at the moment02:44
* Stskeeps notes to himself that the nokia hands logo is creepy02:44
* qwerty12_N800 coughs & points towards Benson's mod...02:45
wazdlcuk: nice :)02:45
wazdStskeeps: have you implemented my loading screen for Mer?02:47
lcukgah! ive implemented font caching at the wrong level02:48
lcukthe font object returned from the cache holds the name and size and specific render scale, a user app shouldnt have to know its rendering at scale 0.2 of a 12 point font02:49
lcuk(font scaling is new but required)02:50
Stskeepswazd: i implemented the rescue menu, and the splash screen is your wallpaper + the logo02:50
wazdStskeeps: you didn't like "loading..." image?)02:52
Stskeepswazd: it's basically the splash screen at here: , but with white line instead, and with the wallpaper one + logo02:55
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Stskeepsthis logo:
Stskeepsworks quite well actually02:56
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wazdStskeeps: I was posting image, but whatever)02:59
Stskeepsyeah - that might come in handy for one of the places though03:00
Stskeepslike the first boot wizard03:00
wazdStskeeps: nice :)03:02
b-manStskeeps: what's the current mer tar.gz rootstrap mirror?, i'll be adding it to the updated installer.03:03
Stskeepsb-man: i'm generating a new one atm but the new one will be 0.603:05
Stskeepsbut we miss a few things before that is 100% done03:05
Stskeepswe have network-manager working, which helps a lot :P03:05
b-mansweet :)03:06
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lcukgnite Stskeeps03:06
b-mang'night lcuk03:07
b-manedit: stskeeps03:07
b-mansorry :p03:07
* b-man gos back to tweeking/debugging installer03:09
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Shadow_Mis there a way to get man  on maemo03:49
infobotsomebody said maemo-man was
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TheFataland maemo-man for n80 ?04:04
TheFataln8*0 ?04:04
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TheFataljohnx: whit cfdisk, etx3 is number 83 ?04:17
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TheFatalwhit cfdisk, etx3 is number 83 ?04:18
GeneralAntillesqwerty12_N800, nice, didn't notice MyPaint in Extras.04:18
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Shadow_MTheFatal, what are you trying to do04:33
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TheFatal_Are someone online ??04:38
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ciroipTheFatal I guess is pretty late in europe04:45
TheFatal_I have no idea what times in europe04:47
ciroip6 hours from ny04:47
ciroip5 in uk04:47
ciroipmore or less04:48
GeneralAntillesTheFatal_, a couple hours ahead of Argentina.04:48
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TheFatal_So if here are 1 am, there ... Mmm... 5 am?04:49
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TheFatal_Ok, then probably i'll make an experiment04:52
TheFatal_see u later04:52
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GeneralAntillesPeople wonder why Nokia does poorly in the States04:57
GeneralAntillesYou can't buy their freaking phones.04:57
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ciroipGeneralAntilles: east or west coast?05:12
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GeneralAntillesI'm East coast05:13
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* towo tries to imagine GeneralAntilles doing the "E" with his fingers.05:14
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ciroipand If I can ask, how you are so involved with nokia?05:14
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GeneralAntillesciroip, I'm not sure I understand the question. Is that "How did you get where you are now?" or "How do you have the time?"05:15
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ciroipHow did you get where you are now? :)05:16
GeneralAntillesI just involved myself.05:16
GeneralAntillesHung out here, participated on itT and the lists05:17
ciroipnice answer05:17
GeneralAntillesStarted doing stuff.05:17
ciroipsi, I mean, everything online05:17
GeneralAntillesStarted triaging on Bugzilla, writing for and organizing the wiki.05:17
GeneralAntillesI didn't get to LinuxTag or the Summit.05:17
GeneralAntillesThe whole of my participation in Maemo is community-related and digital. ;)05:18
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TheFatal1I did it !!! I'm booting from internal mmc :D05:32
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Shadow____Xhow did you do it TheFatal05:37
Shadow____Xand what d id you use05:37
TheFatal1I used pb05:38
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Shadow____Xah yes05:39
Shadow____Xyou know05:39
Shadow____Xpbeasy is even easier05:39
TheFatal1Yes, but is too easy :P like ubuntu... If we have no difficult, it is borring05:43
TheFatal1If it has no difficult i wanna say05:44
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TheFatal1What is ncurses-base ??06:02
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r2d2rogershey AFBN81006:53
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LopLiiianybody still switched on?07:55
r2d2rogersLopLiii: barely ;)07:57
LopLiiiahh there you are07:57
LopLiiiwht do u use r2d2 as maemo platform?07:58
r2d2rogers the 77007:58
r2d2rogershave two, one with OS2008HE, and one I'm participating in the testing on Mer07:59
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LopLiiiim gonna buy one of 770/800/810 and found that the price differ is about 100usd of each model, if you are me what do you gonna buy?08:00
r2d2rogerswhat do you want to do with it?08:01
r2d2rogersI personally am hard on my personal mobile devices,08:01
r2d2rogersso I stick withthe 770 and it's metal slip cover08:01
r2d2rogersbut the 800 appeals for it's dual SDcard slots08:02
r2d2rogersI like the idea of the 810, but I'm not a fan of some of their design choices, and I haven't seen one in person08:02
LopLiiiabout the issue of 770 being said that is just too much bug inside, do you agree with tht?08:03
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LopLiiior i think its only about how we got it set...?08:03
r2d2rogersLopLiii: the original OS was quite buggy, but I've gotten mine to an acceptable level of usefulness, even while I help with getting something better available08:04
r2d2rogersI use my 770 for ebooks, random netowrk lookups and ssh terminal use08:04
GeneralAntillesThe 770 is just plain slow.08:04
LopLiiihi GeneralAntilles08:06
r2d2rogersLopLiii: he is right about that08:06
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r2d2rogersespecially compares to the N8x0s08:07
LopLiiiDo you prefer 800 or 810 with a 100$ gap?08:07
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GeneralAntillesUnless hardware keyboards are really damn important to you.08:09
r2d2rogerspersonally I'd probably go N800, but I have a bluetooth keyboard and GPS reciever already08:09
GeneralAntillesI wish the 5800 were offered subsidized. . . .08:10
Corsachmhm, is there a for nXXX ?08:11
LopLiiithx guys08:20
r2d2rogersGood ngiht08:23
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RST38hmoo all08:40
RST38hGeneral: they are relatively cheap unsubsidized08:40
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GeneralAntillesRST38h, relatively, but not cheap enough.08:45
GeneralAntillesIt's $500 from Amazon, $350 from one of the flagship stores.08:46
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GeneralAntillesRST38h, you like yours, though?08:47
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RST38hGeneral: It is pretty nice08:59
RST38hGeneral: Not stellar, not shiny, UI has got a few problems, but nice. It is not an N- product too, so it is built cheaply but well09:00
GeneralAntillesI was looking at the Samsung Eternity, but it really doesn't stack up.09:00
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GeneralAntillesOh, by the way, I dunno if you found out already, but apparently it's a 369MHz ARM11 of some sort.09:01
RST38houldn't go with Samsung if you want a smartphone09:01
GeneralAntillesNot after a smartphone09:01
RST38hNobody tells WHAT SoC is used in 5800. No idea why, but it sounds like ahuge secret09:01
RST38hGeneral: then something like Samsung U100 will do the job09:02
RST38h7mm thick, dumb phone09:02
RST38hpairs with N8x009:02
GeneralAntillesYeah, I've already got that.09:02
GeneralAntillesBut it's time to renew and I'd like something new.09:03
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RST38hBTW, no book reader for 5800 yet. There is a beta build of QReader but it has got a few problems09:03
RST38hYou can try E63 (really chip phone, qwerty, s60)09:04
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RST38hs/chip/cheap/ mhm09:04
RST38hok, off to work09:05
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* GeneralAntilles looks at the 6650.09:28
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infobotSargun: Have you had your vi today?09:33
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Mouseyi wish there was amarok for n81009:44
Mouseyi <3 crossfading09:44
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johnxMousey, should be able to compile it now that we have Qt ... but how would it look on an 800x480 window?10:06
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Mouseythat's how10:07
Mouseyit's themeable, so i don't see why the resolution would be an issue, also, it has a player window as well as the playlist window, so we can do like xmms..10:07
Mouseyalso, 800x480 is PLENTY10:07
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johnxeverytime I see screenshots it looks like it wants to take up about 1024x800 at minimum10:08
johnxtry resizing the window on your desktop, see how small it gets before it's snot useful. Also: check memory usage :)10:09
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* StsN800 tries to convince himself to get up10:10
* GeneralAntilles throws pennies at StsN800.10:11
johnxStsN800, at what point did we end up on the same schedule? O_o10:12
StsN800johnx, i fell asleep 1-2 hours after you10:12
johnxand I've been up for ~40 minutes. about to head out to work. back in ~7 hours10:13
StsN800johnx, similar10:14
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aquatixmorning all10:18
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StsN800qt went lgpl10:30
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StsN800morn meiz10:37
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RST38hGeneral: There is one more possibility I missed: E51 ($200 and up)10:42
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GeneralAntillesRST38h, I'm looking at
GeneralAntillesWhich I can get for somewhere around $0-$70 depending on what I can talk them down to.10:57
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aquatixGeneralAntilles: that looks rather nice for a nokia phone10:58
GeneralAntillesaquatix, I had overlooked it a couple times on the AT&T site not realizing it was S60.10:58
aquatixheh, yeah10:59
GeneralAntillesBut I really prefer clamshells.10:59
aquatixclamshells are nice11:00
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aquatixand this one looks rather cool indeed11:00
aquatixthose prices you talked about are with a subscription i guess?11:00
RST38hGeneral: Looks cool, as long as the form factor is good with you11:01
RST38h(and I guess it is, given the previous model)11:01
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GeneralAntillesaquatix, they have different discount rates for new customers and existing customers, sadly.11:02
RST38hSteel shell too.11:02
GeneralAntilles(2-year contract)11:02
GeneralAntillesBut I've never had trouble talking them into giving me the new customer price.11:02
RST38hDialpad may be uncomfortable (Razr dialpad is terribly uncomfortable)11:02
GeneralAntillesI've already got a flat-plastic dialpad, so not a huge issue:,1425,i=184835,00.jpg11:03
RST38hRelatively decent camera quality11:03
GeneralAntillesNever use the camera on any cellphone.11:03
GeneralAntillesBesides, I'll be using the nice 5MP on the back of the RX-51 if any. ;)11:05
pupnikgod bless cameras on cellphones11:05
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GeneralAntillesI'm also not planning on attending any political rallies or police-brutality seminars anytime soon. ;)11:06
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pupnikget ready for some fun, GeneralAntilles11:10
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JaffaMorning, all11:18
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RST38hGeneral: You need cameras for those?11:23
* RST38h always thought that only weed was the requirement...11:23
GeneralAntillesRST38h, it's a great thing to have when things go sour.11:24
RST38hThe police does not confiscate cameras yet? Seems like the first logical thing to do11:24
GeneralAntillesThey can try, but they don't have a right to.11:25
RST38hWell, I remember them prohibiting the use of masks (including gas masks)11:25
RST38hUnder some bogus counter-terrorism reason11:26
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pupnik_we need mesh networking11:28
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RST38hyou first need enogh nodes for that11:28
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x29a_hmm, weird, is the keyboardbacklight on even if its pushed in in the n810?11:33
x29a_looking from the side it seems there is some light11:33
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pupnik_non sense11:35
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x29apupnik_: explain11:36
pupnik_how do you push in a backlight11:36
x29ai push in by keyboard, which is backlit11:36
pupnik_then the light goes on, yes?11:37
x29athe backlight of the keyboard is on, yes11:37
x29awasting energy11:37
pupnik_then it goes off11:37
pupnik_ah ok11:38
x29aif i lock screen and keyboard the backlight of the tft turns off11:38
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x29abut the keyboard is still on (i can look through the little space beside the mini-sd slot)11:39
pupnik_that is not good11:39
x29atrue, thats what i figured, can you reproduce the same behavior?11:40
x29aor lemme check the bugtracker first11:40
pupnik_not with my device11:40
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X-FadeLol ...
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GeneralAntillesX-Fade, I about choked to death when I read that.11:41
X-FadeHeh, yeah pretty funny :)11:41
RST38hit is all nice and funny except that marketing department's definition of "usable" or "functional" does not necessarily coincides with yours or mine11:43
RST38hAs a good example see N95 pushed as a "blogging phone". Not a lot of people use it for that.11:44
glassit's ok for photobloggin11:45
glassi used n70 a lot for direct-to-flicker stuff11:45
aquatix`but I can confidently predict that battery life will be very long indeed - expect to go 3 or 4 days between charges unless you make heavy use of the GPS' wait what?11:45
aquatixsince when is 3-4 days `very long'11:46
glassaquatix: modern phones battery lifes are pretty much dependandt on how much use it gets11:46
JaffaLet's send 'em a couple of Psion Series 5s (or 3's)11:46
glassso speaking in days is usually quite meaningless11:46
aquatixbut this is about a regular s60 clamshell without wifi11:46
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aquatixJaffa: my old sony clie did 1 month on a battery :)11:47
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aquatixbut I also have had phones that worked for a week straight11:47
x29aphilips 9@9 standbytime <311:48
aquatixfor example :)11:50
aquatixthis is about a symbian phone of course, but still ;)11:50
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x29aoh right, no direct comparison then =)11:51
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floriangood morning12:00
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lardmanwhat's with the emails on -users?12:07
lardmanasking about an n8x0 with 3G...12:07
lardmanhmm, do they not read, or listen, n900...12:07
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X-Fadelardman: They want a retrofit obviously ;)12:08
Corsacwell, I'd say it'd be ok with a n900 too12:08
Corsacif only it existed :)12:08
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lardmanah, so that's the issue is it, the fact that they think an n810 + 3G could be manufactured and released sooner than the n900... hmm12:09
X-FadeCorsac: Oh, I'm sure it exists ;)12:09
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X-FadeCorsac: On some development floor in a certain Nokia building..12:09
X-FadeCorsac: Only they won't show it nor talk about it of course :D12:10
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Stskeepsi kinda admire nokia's ability to keep things inside though12:10
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Stskeepsthat must be a bitch to administer12:10
CorsacX-Fade: yeah but I meant a released product ;p12:10
GeneralAntillesI want another goddamn camera phone leak. :(12:10
Corsacwhich I'd really like too12:11
Corsacas I wonder if I shoiuld buy an n810 now12:11
GeneralAntillesAs opposed to waiting a few months for something that's at least twice as powerful?12:11
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Stskeepsokay. my work Word is -so- not going to commit suicide today. got a article to write the next 2 days.12:12
lardmansave often12:12
aquatixStskeeps: write the article in a text editor, than copy to word and mark up?12:13
aquatixor just use latex ;)12:13
X-FadeUse svn/git for versioning ;)12:13
lardmanor clay tablets, probably faster than latex12:13
* aquatix uses .tex files and svn for his papers12:13
aquatixlardman: tsk ;)12:13
Stskeepsaquatix: yeah, and i do normally too12:13
Stskeepsbut i was lazy this time around12:13
lardmanaquatix: :)12:13
GeneralAntillesTurn on autosaving?12:14
RST38hIf you are not doing anything special or including images, LaTeX will do the job12:14
RST38hOtherwise - WordPad and save in RTF12:14
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GeneralAntilleslardman, -users is just silly.12:14
GeneralAntillesEnd of story.12:14
lardmandoes word crash for you often?12:14
lardmanGeneralAntilles: yeah12:15
CorsacGeneralAntilles: yeah12:15
RST38hlardman: For me, anything bigger than 20 pages or so crashes Word12:15
CorsacGeneralAntilles: especially since I dont know for which value of “a few months”12:15
lardmanRST38h: oh, nasty12:15
GeneralAntillesCorsac, Summer 2009.12:15
Corsacand n900 will be clearly more expensive than 300€12:15
RST38hlardman: Sometimes, when I start using "features" like tables, images, formulas, it dies earlier12:15
* lardman wonders what an a-acute || ¬ is?12:15
CorsacGeneralAntilles: for example september 20?12:15
RST38hCorsac: You will only be able to pay for it in albanian dinars12:16
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GeneralAntillesCorsac, the Beta SDK is coming in May.12:16
RST38hCorsac: So, start buying those dinars off eBay like *right now*.12:16
aquatixStskeeps: OOo writer might be an option even12:16
GeneralAntillesExtrapolate what you will about the hardware release date.12:16
lardmanRST38h: Word has served reasonably well for me, only thing that goes wrong with large documents (>100 pages or so I guess) is page+section breaks start going strange12:16
aquatixRST38h: or british pounds :)12:16
GeneralAntillesCorsac, but be aware, the N810 is basically EoL.12:16
Corsacmhm ok12:16
* aquatix wants an N90012:17
* Corsac too12:17
* lardman too!12:17
Corsacbut *now*12:17
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aquatixgf can have my n810 :)12:17
RST38hlardman: Well, tabs, whitespaces, page breaks never worked right for me in Word12:17
GeneralAntillesCorsac, I'd say do it if you can find an N800 or N810 for under $200.12:17
Corsacwell, at least before fosdem12:17
aquatixCorsac: nah, i can wait for a few months if they create it well then12:17
RST38hlardman: Word has some "ideas" about them that do not coincide with what I want to do most of the time12:17
Corsacyeah but you have a n810 already :)12:17
aquatixhad that crave last fosdem ;)12:17
aquatixhad my n810 just in time12:18
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lardmanRST38h: unfortunately, c'est la vie12:18
aquatixthankfully there are alternatives12:18
aquatixexcept not on our intranet12:18
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RST38hlardman: Microsoft can have its "la vie" and stick it up their collective le cul12:23
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pupnik_not to mention the evil of the intel 808812:27
pupnik_segment:offset broke my brain12:27
RST38hpupnik: you call THAT evil?12:27
pupnik_give me a break, i was 1312:28
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pupnik_motorola 68000 was at least non-sick12:28
Stskeepsjohnx: affirmative on the backspace crashing Xorg12:28
florianoh... Qt 4.5 will be LGPL licensed!12:28
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* RST38h praises Nokia for doing the right and obvious thing12:29
pupnik_oh good lord12:29
RST38hpupnik <-- evidently followed the url12:29
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florianDo I finally have to learn Qt?! ;)12:30
RST38his there anything to learn?12:33
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x29apupnik_: under which category would i file the keyboard backlight problem?12:54
pupnik_i have no idea12:55
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RST38hx29a: dsme probably12:57
x29aRST38h: dsme?13:00
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wazdnoon all)13:26
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aquatixhm, who was the author/maintainer of the system load applet again?13:30
aquatixi liked his version that flashed the led while screenshotting13:30
aquatixinstead of having the icon disappear13:30
aquatixyeah, load-applet13:31
aquatixi don't have my tablet on my currently :(13:31
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* Stskeeps notes that exam reading doesn't get better of the professor you're going to exam with bursting into your office13:38
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RST38hmoo, wazd13:43
RST38hSts: Is he going to devour you alive or just suck your brains through a cocktail straw?13:44
StskeepsRST38h: same guy has been in here for various scary reasons, involving different cables and this time around, information on a CS course on CS science theory :P13:45
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RST38hSts: he needs an information on CS from his students? Mmm13:47
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Stskeepsto his defense, it is a bitch getting information from the people running the course13:48
Stskeepswhich is on another institute13:48
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RST38hSomebody or something has forced Apple to start approving web browser apps13:48
RST38hSts: You should befriend him then and hope for favors during exam :)13:49
aquatixsomething called public opinion?13:49
RST38haquatix: When was THAT figuring as a factor?13:49
StskeepsRST38h: it's already horrible enough my former boss is the censor13:50
aquatixRST38h: was the only thing i could think about though13:50
aquatixor steve jobs wanted to try fennec13:50
wazd - omg, thats hilarious :)13:50
aquatixwazd: ah yes :)13:51
aquatixi like the acting of those guys ;)13:51
RST38hSts: censor in what meaning?13:51
StskeepsRST38h: well, in our system there's the examiner and the counterpart, the censor13:52
Stskeepsthe censor is external to the institute usually, and the examiner and the censor has to agree on the grade for the exam13:52
Stskeepsand the censor can in the end override the examiners wish for a grade, but they have to document everything during the exam13:52
Stskeepsif there was a complaint over the grade eventually, etc13:53
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RST38hSts: Ah, I see13:54
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RST38hHehe, airplane tickets got *way* cheaper now =)13:55
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Stskeepsjohnx|zaurus: backspace in xorg happens to me too btw13:56
Stskeepsmaybe it's similar problem as b-mans13:57
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johnx|zaurus$&'$)ing keymap stuff13:57
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Stskeepsjohnx|zaurus: on the positive side your auto-startx and first boot wizard works flawlessly13:57
johnx|zaurusStskeeps: b-man's poblem sounds the same as we had in debian/deblet before the HAL .fdi is added13:57
johnx|zaurusnever say flawlessly13:58
johnx|zaurusit will break with the wrong input I know13:58
Stskeeps; rm -rf?13:58
Stskeepsor better yet13:58
Stskeeps; utelnetd!13:58
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Stskeepsjohnx|zaurus: i use ubuntu HAL, btw13:59
Stskeepsnot maemo13:59
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johnx|zaurusright, which is why b-man's problem confuses me14:00
johnx|zaurusa lot14:00
Stskeepschecking .xsession-errors14:00
Stskeeps(this is a file we want to put in /tmp ..)14:00
johnx|zaurusbut there is some other keymap weirdness happening to my zaurus to14:00
johnx|zaurusBTW, really close to a workable vga layout :)14:01
Stskeepsmaybe the problem is that we don't have a keymap14:01
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Stskeepsjohnx|zaurus: i added r2d2rogers to mer-committers btw14:02
johnx|zauruswe obviously have something, but for example xev on my zaurus shows enter producing the right keysym but it does nothing in roxterm14:02
johnx|zaurusgetting used to ctrl-m14:02
johnx| mer has no keymap or HAL changes vs ubuntu, right?14:03
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johnx|zaurusso odd14:05
johnx|zaurusI kinda hate x keymap stuff14:05
johnx|zaurusI really want to tell it 'just use the console keymap'14:05
johnx|zaurusthe whole thing was insane before HAL was even brought into the picture14:06
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Stskeepsi really need to figure out a way to get rid of gnome-keyring, or at least let it run its own course14:08
Stskeepsi'm also at a complete loss as to why the icons arent working in some places :)14:09
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johnx|zaurusyet another "why isn't the normal icon theme system good enough for Nokia?"14:10
Stskeepsno, i actually don't think so14:10
Stskeepsthere's no direct difference between hildon-icons and sdk-default-icons14:11
johnx|zaurusah, but I mean keeping them as part of the gtk theme in the first place14:11
johnx|zaurusI'll look when I get home14:11
Stskeepsbackspace isn't "just" a first-boot-wizard problem btw14:12
johnx|zaurusyeah, i knew that actually14:12
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johnx|zaurustested in roxterm too, with hilarious results14:13
Stskeepsroxterm works with HIM?14:14
Stskeepsexcept not having backspace is kinda a downer14:14
johnx|zaurusah, tried matchbox-keyboard IIRC14:14
johnx|zaurusespecially odd that backspace works on my zaurus keyboard14:16
johnx|zaurusbut enter fails on n800 and zaurus14:16
johnx|zaurusstab stab stab14:16
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johnx|zaurusbleh, slow night here14:18
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RST38hjohnx: #define normal icon system14:20
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Stskeepsjohnx|zaurus: i'll see if i can build qwerty12's roxterm14:23
johnx|zaurusStskeeps: ah, sounds good14:24
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Stskeepsjohnx|zaurus: removing broken libvte and osso-xterm in repository14:25
johnx|zaurusah, ok14:25
* johnx|zaurus tests wifi powersaving on his zaurus...14:25
Stskeepsactually, nm, going to do this later :P14:26
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johnx|zaurusalso fine :) you done with exams now14:28
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Stskeepsgot a B (second-best grade in .dk) in social and collaborative computing14:29
Stskeepsnext up an article on pervasive positioning14:30
Stskeepsand then an exam in human-computer interaction14:30
Stskeeps(it's rare people get A, normally 1-2 people per class)14:30
johnx|zaurusthat's for the best14:30
aquatixsounds good14:31
aquatixStskeeps: good luck14:31
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johnx|zaurussome uni classes in the US give out A's unless you don't attend and some fail out most of the class. the middle road is probably better14:31
Stskeepsyou work yourself up from a fail here really14:32
johnx|zaurus'intro to comp sci: scheme' was a fun one :)14:32
johnx|zaurusone of those 'you have to be cruel to be kind classes'14:33
Stskeepscompiler courses are fun too14:34
Stskeepsthe rule is generally "if you have a gf, you'll most likely loose her during this course. that's how much time you use on it"14:34
johnx|zaurusthe lecture hall was packed the first day. i grabbed the last seat and then someone pulled in folding chairs. just after midterms i had a whole row to myself...14:34
johnx|zaurusyeah, my friend was telling me about file system design courses14:35
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johnx|zaurusfun fun :)14:35
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wazdStskeeps: how the hell could you get B in social computing?!14:39
aquatixwazd: not caring about users ;)14:40
wazdStskeeps: Show them Mer and say "Wadeva!"14:40
Stskeepswazd: i would have been able to get A if i had dragged in the big theory framework14:41
Stskeepsbut i didn't, intentionally, so14:41
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GeneralAntillesdneary, you're gonna get lynched by the itT mob if they find out you're trying to shuffle them into a back room. ;)14:43
johnx|zaurusare we shuffling people into back rooms and I'm missingout?14:43
aquatixwazd: wadeva?14:43
aquatixnm :)14:43
GeneralAntillesjohnx|zaurus, minutes thread on maemo-community.14:44
johnx|zaurusah, will read later.14:45
Stskeepshm, quite a lot new maemo jobs14:45
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Stskeepssenior developer in bangalore, hmm :P14:45
johnx|zaurusmid level sys-admin in tokyo?14:45
Andrewfblackis there an ftp program for tablet?14:46
Stskeepsjohnx|zaurus: ;)14:46
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Stskeepsjohnx|zaurus: that sounds like a job for you..14:47
RST38hit does not show14:47
johnx|zaurusStskeeps: I was asking if it was there :P14:47
johnx|zaurusshould have added a smiley14:47
Stskeepsjohnx|zaurus: hehe14:47
Stskeepsjohnx|zaurus: but honestly though, read the 'linux pre-integrator and release manager' part ;)14:48
lcukjohnx|zaurus, you misread it, "sys-admin FOR tokyo"  you have to manage every single connection from grandma  going online for the first time to haxx0rs14:49
Stskeepsoh damnit, non-unique url14:50
Stskeepsjohnx|zaurus: -> click here for details, page 414:51
Stskeepsthe 14/nov/08 one14:51
johnx|zaurusaah, *bookmarked*14:51
Stskeepsthat pretty much covers some of your experiences ;)14:51
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johnx|zauruswow...old posting. wonder why it's not filled14:51
Stskeeps' It will add an edge to your application if you have Linux System Administrator experience'14:51
johnx|zauruseep. back to work. catch you in a couple hours :D14:53
Stskeepshave fun14:53
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* Stskeeps ponders if we should include qt-maemo in mer14:56
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GeneralAntillesWell, why _wouldn't_ you?14:57
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wazdI've received an e-mail from guy that wants to participate in Mer project)14:57
Stskeepswazd: just tell him to get on here i guess :)14:57
GeneralAntilleswazd, I hear they need somebody or something to work out their frustrations on.14:57
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StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i have occasionally considered getting a punching bag at home14:58
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wazdHis name is Roberto. Damn I'm already jealous :P15:00
Stskeepswazd: btw, make an account on launchpad and go to and ask to join the team15:01
Stskeepsusing 'bzr' you'll be able to correct themes and artwork and so on15:02
Stskeepsor contribute files in your own branches and such15:03
wazdStskeeps: Oh, his comment was banned as spam in my blog15:03
wazdbottom one15:03
wazdoh no, 9th one15:04
Stskeepsguy should definately come on here15:04
Stskeepsso if you reply that back and ask him to look for Stskeeps or johnx, we'll give him the tour :)15:06
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khertan_n980Hello ...15:08
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Stskeeps'lo khertan15:08
khertan_n980Is there a possibility to change the syntax of ?15:08
khertan_n980for the wiki i mean ?15:08
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gladiacKhertan_n810: hi, what do you mean exactly?15:10
* wazd 's looking for a knife to kill neighbours from above15:10
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wazdSome stupid girl's walking on stilletos for 3 hours already without a stop15:11
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AndrewfblackI wonder why the Maemo build of Php5 has stuff like ftp module left out15:12
Stskeepswazd: a couple of doors down i have a turkish family with a subwoofer and very loud traditional turkish music.. and to the left i have a child which seemingily instead of talking screams all the time.. till 3am in the evening15:12
Stskeepsit ruins my sleep patterns totally15:12
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pupnik_Stskeeps: if you can, play loud music when THEY sleep15:12
pupnik_then talk to them about noise15:12
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Stskeepspupnik_: i have considered once or twice to employ my surround sound, subwoofer, and porn.15:13
khertan_n980Stskeeps: i ve used in the past something more usefull15:13
Stskeepskhertan_n980: yeah, i kinda like WYSIWYG wikis15:13
gladiacKhertan_n810: you can create styles15:13
Stskeepsbut it's mediawiki syntax which is the most used15:13
gladiacso that the usage is easier for other people15:13
khertan_n980Stskeeps: doing a surchage on the electric line ... for all the batiment15:14
gladiacbut it isn't easy to write it, yes15:14
khertan_n980ouch ? someone found that things easier ?15:14
khertan_n980html is easier !15:14
GeneralAntilleswazd, I'm so glad I'm not the top floor.15:14
GeneralAntillesBut I swear I can hear one of the neighbors bellow me doing laps sometimes. . . .15:15
khertan_n980writing a .doc using a hexadecimal file editor is easier !15:15
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AndrewfblackKhertan_n810 I'm guilty of doing some html tables and suck on wiki, I didn't do that one but I'm a little to lazy to learn a second way of doing something15:15
aquatixkhertan_n980: *grin* @ wiki syntax15:15
aquatixit still is less evil than thos TeX tables though :/15:16
khertan_n980aquatix: not sure ...15:16
GeneralAntilleskhertan_n980, the tables are really the worst of the mediawiki stuff.15:16
khertan_n980if there is only that15:16
wazdk, i've replied to im15:16
gladiacI prefer ikiwiki with git :)15:17
khertan_n980i prefer html !15:17
aquatixGeneralAntilles: laps? as in `running cirkles in a room'?15:17
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aquatixyeah, plain html15:17
aquatixadd a nice stylesheet, done15:17
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GeneralAntillesaquatix, well, not circles, but it sounds like they're running from end end of the room to the other.15:17
gladiacKhertan_n810: you can use only html for ikiwiki15:18
GeneralAntillesstomp, stomp, stomp, stomp, stomp--pause--stomp, stomp, stomp, stomp, stomp15:18
GeneralAntilleskhertan_n980, you can use HTML on the wiki. . . .15:18
gladiacmaybe it a morse code15:18
aquatixGeneralAntilles: the kids in the home above us do the same sometimes15:18
wazdGeneralAntilles: advise him to go outside :)15:18
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GeneralAntilleswazd, I'd have to knock on several doors to figure out who it is first, though.15:18
GeneralAntillesAnother one of my neighbors from across the hall was, apparently, spray painting some stuff yesterday. Now the tiles at the end of the hall are covered in overspray.15:19
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aquatixsue the guy for graffiti15:19
Stskeepssue? drastic :P15:20
GeneralAntillesaquatix, not my property, not my worry.15:20
aquatixor paint it some pretty colour15:20
StskeepsMeiz_n810: current imager gets network manager right btw15:23
khertan_n980.GeneralAntilleskhertan_n980, you can use HTML on the wiki. . . .15:23
khertan_n980how ?15:23
khertan_n980grrr shit ... i ve added an enhancement request on bugzilla15:24
wazdbtw, according to GeneralAntilles is twice more adorable than Mer :D15:26
GeneralAntilleskhertan_n980, you put HTML in one end and it comes out as formatted text from the other. :P15:26
* GeneralAntilles is way adorable.15:26
GeneralAntilleskhertan_n980, that's enhancement's either WORKSFORME or goes upstream.15:27
khertan_n980GeneralAntilles: for adding new things maybe ... but for editing something like that : ?15:27
wazdDo you need any rescue menu design, General?)15:27
GeneralAntilleskhertan_n980, isn't in the game of patching up mediawiki.15:28
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GeneralAntilleskhertan_n980, what's the problem with that?15:28
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khertan_n980GeneralAntilles: you do not see any problem with that ?15:28
khertan_n980really ?15:28
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Stskeepskhertan_n980: i guess it's a matter of knowing the syntax15:28
GeneralAntilleskhertan_n980, really, I don't see a problem with it.15:28
Stskeepskinda like how i try to learn to speak french, but it's not that easy15:28
GeneralAntillesThere's a nice introduction.15:29
aquatixStskeeps: i rather speak wikipedian ;)15:29
aquatixi still think that wiki table syntax is more readable than the LaTeX tables15:29
Meiz_n810Stskeeps: that's something i have been waiting :) thanks. How did you make nm-applet work15:30
* Stskeeps unpacks yet another mer image15:30
StskeepsMeiz_n810: magic15:30
aquatixkhertan_n980: but i can see you going wtf on bigger ones indeed15:30
khertan_n980ok ... so ... but does there is a plugin for wikimedia to have an other syntax ?15:30
GeneralAntilleskhertan_n980, a table's syntax is picked when it's created.15:30
StskeepsMeiz_n810: two things - plugdev, netdev, and nm-applet running before hildon-desktop15:30
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Stskeepsand installing dhcp3-client15:31
GeneralAntillesIf you can find a plugin that lets you switch on-the-fly, we'll consider installing it.15:31
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StskeepsMeiz_n810: and gtk-update-icon-cache -f /usr/share/icons/somewhere15:31
GeneralAntillesBut I don't believe such a thing exists.15:31
GeneralAntillesAs not all of mediawiki's table functions are implemented in HTML's.15:31
GeneralAntilleskhertan_n980, my recommendation, though, is to take 20 minutes and read through their guide to mediawiki tables and be done with it.15:31
dnearyGeneralAntilles: Yathink?15:32
GeneralAntillesdneary, I've been on the receiving end of smaller versions of those more than once. It aint fun. :P15:33
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Meiz_n810Stskeeps: ookay15:36
StskeepsMeiz_n810: we have a strange problem with backspace killing the X server at the moment though :)15:36
aquatixStskeeps: some meta keys hanging?15:37
Stskeepsaquatix: n80015:37
aquatixi had it on my pc15:37
aquatixalt hanging somehow15:37
Stskeepsthen again we don't have nozap or something like that in xorg15:37
aquatixthat disables the entire environment :/15:37
Meiz_n810so, Xorg dies? does this problem exist with Xomap too?15:40
StskeepsMeiz_n810: xomap is a totally different can of worms though15:40
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JaffaN800s for 40 quid. Wowser:
Stskeepstime to stock up?15:42
Stskeepsjesus, that's cheap15:43
Stskeepsjust imagine how the market would explode if the price was that low15:45
Stskeepslike, in general15:45
pupnik_expect to see more fire sales in 200915:46
* Jaffa wonders about getting one. Absolutely very little use for it.15:46
JaffaActually, I 'spose Alex got have it as his own, instead of sharing Mrs Jaffa's15:46
StskeepsJaffa: new kiddo should have one too15:46
JaffaHe doesn't exactly need the keyboard of the N81015:46
pupnik_just make more babies, so you have an excuse to buy more N800s15:46
JaffaStskeeps: I think one between the two of 'em'll do for now15:46
Jaffapupnik_: he15:47
Jaffapupnik_: heh15:47
JaffaToo tired for any baby making ;-)15:47
WolfSageThat's like what, $80 USD? Sign me up15:47
JaffaWolfSage: Less than that now, pound's right dropped.15:47
JaffaAbout $58 at today's exchange rate15:47
wazdWell, it's offline only15:47
pupnik_england has highest foreign debt per capita, around $140,00015:48
wazdFell, for 60 bucks I'd get it just to get it :)15:48
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pupnik_   lol, economics, sfw15:51
* Stskeeps looks at #4001 again and realizes he shouldn't report bugs at 2am at night15:51
JaffaOf course, PC World are crap15:51
JaffaAnd say "we don't stock any Nokia items"15:51
StskeepsJaffa: while having a editorial on their own page..15:52
WolfSageOh it has?15:52
WolfSageDamn, and here I thought the dollar went up15:52
* sp3000 wonders why cz's backlog in this channel shrinks15:52
JaffaStskeeps: yup15:52
Stskeepssp3000: hm?15:52
* sp3000 has 11 lines now15:52
* sp3000 should have 50015:53
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* sp3000 shrugs, restarts15:56
Stskeepswazd: our current boot progress is [mer-logo splashscreen] [black screen for a second while X loads] [wallpaper for a while when zenity and such loads] [dialog boxes for setting up tablet] [splash screen finishing] [black screen for a while while X + hildon starts, then white screen + icons while hildon finishes up, then wallpaper + hildon]15:56
Stskeepsi'm not 100% sure a blank wallpaper is the best in the 3rd process, so i was thinking about the loading wallpaper there, but it's like it should be "please wait, preparing for first boot" instead or the likes.15:57
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wazdStskeeps: we should make BSOD there, to keep user in tonus xD15:58
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GeneralAntillesWe need a picture of a cracked tablet screen to put there.15:59
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: that would definately be the best watchdog reboot image15:59
Stskeepsthat'd throw people into a raging fit16:00
GeneralAntillesLittle did they know Nokia installed an explosive bolt behind all tablet screens to punish misbehaving users.16:01
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Stskeepsi wonder if it's possible to get rid of the sidebar completely and just replace it with home screen applets16:06
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Stskeepswazd: <- i know it's XP but it might actually have some merit, if we try and remove the sidebar16:07
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Stskeepsand maybe having a sidebar that can pop out :P16:08
Meiz_n810Stskeeps: look at marquee-plugins.16:08
wazdWhat I was thinking of16:08
StskeepsMeiz_n810: hmm, maybe16:08
wazdStskeeps: can we get rid TOTALY of the sidebar?)16:08
Stskeepswazd: possibly16:08
Meiz_n810Stskeeps: app-menu can be a part of the statusbar16:08
wazdStskeeps: and I can ask Andrew Olmsted to port Personal Launcher to Mer16:08
AndrewfblackStskeeps What about my XP theme?16:09
StskeepsAndrewfblack: i just had a revelation about layout stuff regarding it so16:09
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AndrewfblackStskeeps K, Personally i like the layout that chinesse knock off is using with no sidebar and menu up top16:10
Stskeepscos of the full title bar in the top16:10
StskeepsAndrewfblack: yeah, i thought similar16:10
Stskeepswazd: think personal launcher should be trivial to build16:11
Stskeepsprovided it's not python16:11
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wazdStskeeps: So I what I was thinking of to slightly modify it16:12
wazdStskeeps: to be able to add desktop-alike shortcuts to the homescreen16:13
wazdStskeeps: I'll ask Andrew if it's possible16:13
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Stskeepsi'll just try to build it first :)16:14
Stskeepsbuilds after a libtoolize :)16:15
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kyndeI'm having trouble getting rid of the "Unable to connect, no file system available" popup when I plug in a USB ethernet adapter. The adapter works fine, but I'd just like to get rid of that message. Any ideas?16:18
Stskeepshack it? :P think it's part of ke-recv16:19
Stskeeps(which is open source)16:19
kyndeSo it seems, it's ke_recv that says "usb_mount_check:168: entered" and "launch_fm:2606: couldn't find suitable mount point"16:20
kyndeI'm just wondering wether there's a way to let it or hal (as it seems) to know that the usb nics do not have storage capabilities.16:21
kyndeI did take a short glance at the ke_recv sources, it might be just that the usb mount check timout is left there when in reality it should have already been cleared out. Not sure about that though, like I said, I only took a glance.16:22
wazdAndrewfblack: you have a typo in the mainmenu of your homepage16:23
wazdAndrewfblack: reMository16:23
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Andrewfblackwazd of ?16:25
andre___three cheers for GeneralAntilles sharing my opinion :-P16:26
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Andrewfblackwazd: not really a typo just something I never changed remository is the name of that joomla plugin.  Thanks for pointing it out though.16:26
GeneralAntillesandre___, :P16:26
GeneralAntillesandre___, it's the least I can do what with leaving it up to you to RESOLVE all the touchy ones and take the brunt of the reaction. ;)16:27
kyndeStskeeps: so I take it that there's no de facto standard udev/hal configuration change that would remove it?16:28
andre___hah. sharing the flames? nice :)16:28
wazdI think we should definitely invite Olmsted to Mer party16:28
wazdSince he's a GTK god :)16:28
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JaffaStskeeps: The original Moblin/UME versions of Hildon have it configured with no sidebar; might be useful for pointers16:32
Andrewfblackwell I'm out of here working on themes to long this morning.16:32
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RST38hA 34-year-old mother who stole her teenage daughter's identity and used it to enroll in high school to pursue her dream of becoming a cheerleader was yesterday committed to three years in a psychiatric unit.16:34
StskeepsRST38h: no shit.. :P16:34
Stskeepswazd: i kinda think that it will flow naturally eventually16:34
Stskeepswe just need to get to a point where it's easy to work wih16:34
Stskeepshaving NetworkManager helps a lot ;)16:34
* Jaffa *disagrees* with andre___ and GeneralAntilles 16:36
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Stskeepsheh, what now? ;)16:37
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andre___Jaffa, hah! add a comment. :)16:37
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Stskeepsoh boy16:37
pupnik_time is now16:37
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Stskeepsmore minutes of web design meetings16:37
Stskeepsam i the only one with hate for the notification thing in the bottom left?16:39
Stskeeps(in hildon-desktop)16:40
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GeneralAntillesStskeeps, well, I like being notified.16:41
r2d2rogersStskeeps: I haven't gotten it yet ;)(16:41
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r2d2rogersStskeeps: thanks for the add on mer-commiters16:42
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i just think it is out of sync with the other top bar notifications, but that's just me..16:42
Stskeepsi wouldn't mind clicking a smaller icon in the status bar16:42
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, I like how it starts in the top then moves down when new notifications come in.16:43
r2d2rogersStskeeps: would there be any objection to changing the usbnet rescue script to remove the "read foo" lines ?16:43
wazdSo, since homescreen widgets have z-index16:43
wazdwe can bind PL to the bottom16:43
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: i never saw that happen really16:43
Stskeepsr2d2rogers: go ahead, lemme just give you access to builder and such too16:44
GeneralAntillesStskeeps, try IMing yourself with FBReader in fullscreen.16:44
StskeepsGeneralAntilles: mm, i actually don't use IM on the tablet, heh16:44
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Stskeepsr2d2rogers: r2d2rogers on jaiku?16:46
r2d2rogersyup16:46 and twitter also16:46
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Stskeepsr2d2rogers: added to builder, use #merbuilder on jaiku, build sourcepackage=packageversion16:47
r2d2rogersStskeeps: thanks'16:48
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Stskeepsbzr export lp-path packagename; cd packagename; dpkg-buildpackage -S -us -uc; upload .tar.gz, .dsc, .changes to , ssh /import-new-changes, and then build on jaiku16:48
* r2d2rogers takes notes16:49
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wazdso what I want to do is this:
aquatixhm, that looks nice16:56
aquatixwazd: those are `desktop icons'?16:56
wazdAnd the other thing is to move task navigator to the top, instead of title16:56
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wazdaquatix: sorta16:56
aquatixand the `mer' logo is a button pulling up the main menu?16:57
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lcukcan you move the start button to the botto mand add a trashcan?16:57
aquatixtrash can in the lower right16:57
aquatixand a clock beneath it16:57
lcuknot too close to the clock though16:57
lcukwe also need room for a norton antivirus icon16:58
wazdlcuk: :)16:58
aquatixyou take the words out of my mouth16:58
aquatixso to say16:58
wazdbottom orientation is bad16:58
wazdsince there are app controls16:58
aquatixand maybe a dedicated reset button16:58
lcukor is it in control panel?16:59
wazdI'm serious! >:(16:59
lcukwazd, i agree sorta with that, since things like the keyboard controls come up16:59
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lcukso are we16:59
GeneralAntillesA bunch of random ass Excel files would look good, too.16:59
lcukmake the font for the desktop icons just a bit to big and add copious amounts of ... even though the name would fit17:00
GeneralAntillesWe need crappier text rendering, too.17:00
lcukahhh well you just have to use liqbase for that17:01
wazdso you don't like the "desktop" concept?)17:01
GeneralAntillesMore seriously, I'm not sure we should start diverging from the current layout until we know more about Nokia's plans for Fremantle.17:01
lcukwe do, but the desktop area is for whatever applets the user chooses17:01
lcuksome might decide they want a desktop17:01
lcukothers wont17:01
GeneralAntillesYet another disparate mobile UI isn't all that helpful.17:01
GeneralAntillesBut I guess some options for desktop layouts wouldn't hurt.17:02
lcuki have to agree in principle with gen, same as when i started throwing ideas together, we want stability first, then go for expansion17:02
wazdAw, i've forgot to tell last thing17:02
wazdPersonal Launcher is on the bottom, widgets are still there17:03
lcukdont tell me, you've ported clippy?17:03
wazdIn my brain it's pretty doable)17:03
lcukmy desktop is just a picture with a single small clock17:03
wazdI don't know if it's in fact possible17:03
lcuki dont want to accidentally click on apps17:03
lcukfor me, having a menu opening up with selection is great, the desktop area is effectively information only17:04
* lcuk hates catching clock and having it come up17:04
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lcukanywya, bbl17:05
wazdand i want one big button since i'm pressing with my feet :D17:05
aquatixwazd: i like your concept17:08
aquatixwith the bar at the top17:08
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aquatixbut what about a taskbar-like widget?17:08
aquatixor is that going to be up there too?17:08
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roopeafaik beta sdk will then reveal the fremantle ui framework and layout also. so that's pretty soon.17:14
StsN800roope, hehe, it'll interesting to see for sure - we're mostly working on making non-17:16
* RST38h likes wazd's layout17:16
RST38hThe only question is how it will live with hildonized apps17:17
StsN800clutter ui atm so we can support the older tablets17:17
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wazdthats what i mean17:18
StsN800looks possible17:19
wazdall hildon stuff is still there, sust rearranged17:20
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RST38hwazd: So even although the frame is not shown it is there?17:20
RST38hSounds fine with me17:20
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StsN800someone should make a hildon-desktop layout maker..17:24
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StsN800qwerty12, sign up for mer-committers on launchpad btw17:26
qwerty12Stskeeps, hmm, I'm not much of a scm fan (way too lazy)17:26
mgedminscms rule17:26
mgedmindrink the kool-aid17:26
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Jaffaroope: we've not had the *alpha* SDK yet ;-/17:32
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wazdI don't think that Fremantle UI will be revealed before release17:33
GeneralAntilleswazd, you don't have to think. :)17:34
GeneralAntillesIt'll be revealed with the beta release in April/May17:34
lardmanand the hw too hopefully ;)17:34
wazd2 possibilities: there is nothing to show or there is something uber cool17:34
GeneralAntilleswazd, there's plenty to show.17:34
wazdThen RS-51 would be released April :)17:35
GeneralAntillesBut they've chosen to wait because of the ill reception incomplete UIs usually face.17:35
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RST38hwazd: Third possibility: there is midly amusing next device which is already in prototype stage and fremantle devs have the prototypes but they can't show those to anyone17:35
GeneralAntillesI wonder if the momentum has just completely dropped out of
RST38hwazd: In fact, the existence of rx-51 prototypes has been confirmed by the mothership representatives17:36
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GeneralAntillesAlmost release-quality according to the comments that were removed from itT.17:36
* qwerty12 rolls eyes at "Will need at least one book included, and preferably a link to where to download more. "17:36
wazdIf I were Nokia, I'd release supercool UI with hardware to make maximum hype :)17:37
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RST38hwazd: they will, just not right away17:38
RST38hBut it will probably disappoint at least 50% of the community, just like it is used to17:38
lardmanGeneralAntilles: Quim said discussion is still going on behind closed doors, or at least I think he did17:39
GeneralAntillesDiscussion about?17:39
GeneralAntillesYeah, but that was, what, a month ago, right?17:40
lardmanyeah, I guess so17:41
lardmanperhaps they;ve given up on us ;)17:41
GeneralAntillesI guess you really need the beta SDK to do real Fremantle-oriented work.17:41
GeneralAntillesBut there's plenty of non-UI stuff to be tackled in the meantime, though. . . .17:41
RST38hGeneral: Need a real device17:41
lcukwazd, you can no quicker magic up a finiahed on schedule ui than nokia can ;)17:41
lardmanyeah, though polishing up some apps is certainly doable17:41
lardmanhw will increase the excitement for sure17:41
* lcuk uses a feather duster on lardmans baldspot17:41
GeneralAntillesRST38h, hardly.17:42
GeneralAntillesFor marketing, maybe.17:42
GeneralAntillesBut certainly not for coding.17:42
lcukRST38h, theres been real omap3 devices around for months already :: movial have videos on youtube showing clear as day tablet form factor omap3 stuff17:43
lcuk"fierce" internet experience ;)17:43
GeneralAntillesMore than a year, even.17:43
lardmanyeah, but that's not really relevant, most apps could be written with no hw, just knowing the capabilities17:44
lardmanthough knowing some more about the connectivity infrastructure would be useful for always-on type apps17:44
lcuklardman,  look around - all the people doing that are going "ummm its crap we need to optimize"17:44
lcukfor any platform17:44
lardmancertainly, but you write some code before you optimise it ;)17:45
lcukqt, saviour of the world :: has extensive core problems with speed - its great having a big fast desktop running things smoothly but it doesnt scale backwards17:45
lardmansod Qt17:45
aquatixlardman: hm, i always start with optimising17:45
aquatixlardman: contemplating my plans while drinking some coffee17:45
lardmanaquatix: well you have very large working memory then17:45
roopemy feeling is that people will be fairly impressed, providing things go well :).17:45
lcuklardman, you start by not driving a JCB into the sandpit17:45
suihkulokkilcuk: are you asserting that GTK was lightweight and designed for embedded? :P17:45
lcuksuihkulokki, hahaha no :|17:46
lcuki am using qt because thats where all the optimization work appears to be17:46
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lardmanbut still, that doens't stop people writing apps, they might be slower than ideal, but they will run17:46
lardmanred herring17:46
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roopei've been taking quite a lot flak on internettablettalk about my hw key related comments. :)17:47
lcuklardman, not saying its not, but do you think the iphone would have done as well if users had to wait?17:48
GeneralAntillesroope, you do have a way of saying things that cut right to people's worst fears. <_<17:48
lardmanlcuk: people will always write apps for commercial platforms17:49
GeneralAntillesThe trend with the tablets so far has been to crappier and crappier hardware keys, so combine that with certain comments and BOOM17:49
wazdnice Beagleboard demo17:49
lardmanlcuk: but again, we will eventually have hw, it's just people saying that we can't do anything yet because we don't have it that I disagree with to a large extent17:49
* lardman prays that it has a kb17:50
* GeneralAntilles agrees with lardman again. :P17:50
GeneralAntillesAbout the people saying17:50
GeneralAntillesNot necessarily about the hw keyboard17:50
lcukok lardman :) thats certainly reasonable17:51
GeneralAntillessince a crappy keyboard like the N810 has is worse than a virtual keyboard for my use.17:51
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lcukGeneralAntilles, but having the whole screen for content is better for many people no matter how crap the keybooard17:51
lardmanhmm, I prefer the n810 kb to the n800 onscreen job17:52
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zeldhito all17:52
lcuki didnt even consider the n800 to be a computer :$17:52
zeldcan i install maemo on my nokia e51?17:52
lcukit was a pda17:53
zeldis there a nokia hw supported by e51?17:53
zeldops not by e51 but by maemo :)17:53
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zeldthere is a list of nokia hw supported by maemo?17:54
johnxhere's the list: n800 and n81017:54
qwerty12770 :)17:54
johnxthe 770 is supported by a past version of maemo17:54
qwerty12Meh, N800 & N810's maemo will be in the past too17:54
johnxqwerty12, shaddup! I'm workin' on it!17:54
qwerty12johnx, hehe, sorry! :P17:54
Stskeepsqwerty12: i still think we should hack mer to run on top of a n96 ;)17:55
johnxno problem, just all the doom n' gloom gets to me :P17:55
johnxI vote for qwerty12 to work on getting the kernel booting17:55
johnxheh...actually it would sooner run on the openmoko thing...17:55
* johnx had an interesting idea17:56
Stskeepsout-compete openmoko on their own field?17:56
johnxStskeeps, and get a maemo-based phone out before Nokia17:56
GeneralAntilleslcuk, that's silly.17:56
GeneralAntilleslcuk, you just don't know how to use the virtual input very well.17:56
lcukof course it was silly, but it looked like one17:57
GeneralAntillesjohnx is going to take over the world with Maemo.17:57
GeneralAntillesIt'll be his SkyNet17:57
lcukas long as we can play on wii17:57
Stskeepsjohnx: yes, that would be sortof humourous ;)17:58
lcukjohnx, shouldnt we just boot it on the actual openmoko hardware?17:58
aquatixjohnx: that'd be cool17:58
Stskeepsjohnx: scaringily enough i think many pieces are there to support dialing though :P17:58
lcukwe can include a 2600whistle on a lanyard :D17:58
johnxI need to put up a screenshot of what 640x480 looks like17:59
Stskeepsyes, you do17:59
johnxjust a couple more pixel values to tweak and it'll look almost right17:59
johnxI'll put up a screenie now though, then another later17:59
Stskeepsjohnx: freerunner does actually look capable18:00
Stskeepssamsung 2442 soc, 400mhz, 128mb sdram, 256mb nand flash18:00
johnxand the requisite framebuffer stupidity too18:00
johnxjust like zaurus cxx00 and n8x018:00
Stskeepswhat arm version is it? if any18:01
johnxdur...maybe an arm9?18:01
zeldonly this type of nokia?18:01
Stskeepsbloody hell, armv418:01
johnxStskeeps, armv4t IIRC. huuuge difference as far as support18:01
Stskeepsyeah, but we do armv5t :P18:02
johnxzeld, maemo runs on linux. if there is no linux port for that phone maemo can't run18:02
johnxStskeeps, are we tied to anything really ubuntu-specific?18:02
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StskeepsrcS.d order maybe18:03
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Stskeepsalso i think most of our packages are armv518:03
Stskeepsit isn't impossible, if that's what you're asking :)18:04
johnxI suppose. but we can drop a lot of our init scripts on a more standard platform18:04
Stskeepsmaybe then i can get Mer on my ipaq 3630 .. ;P18:04
Stskeepstrue, smaller18:04
lcuklardman, i saw it yesterday, its from the synapse touchpad code i believe18:04
johnxlots of apps I can't picture running on a 320x240 screen18:04
qwerty12Stskeeps, get it on the loox instead :P18:04
* lcuk had a loox18:05
johnxof course people will probably be doing up 480x800 layouts for their apps for maemo 5... :)18:05
Stskeepsqwerty12: yeah, more reasonable18:05
qwerty12Someone did have Linux running on the 720 but it hard resetted the tablet and went back to winmo when you rebooted it18:06
zeldunderstood johnx18:06
zeldbut... nokia e51 work with symbian OS18:06
zeldsymbian is not a linux derived OS?18:06
lcukjohnx, technically does pixels matter - i thought aspect ratio was MUCH more important18:07
Stskeepsalso, just because it runs linux, doesnt mean you can replace it :)18:07
lcukespecially if you wanna run things on HIGHER than defined - ie desktop/laptops have 1024/768 etc but you might still want fullscreen18:07
johnxlcuk, run some maemo apps in a xephyr window dialed to 320x240 :)18:07
aquatixzeld: symbian is an independent OS18:07
aquatixformerly known as EPOC18:07
Stskeepsthough i wonder why noone did a bootloader from-within symbian thing or whatever18:08
lcukjohnx, i suppose :) just getting used to resolution freedom in lb :)18:08
* lcuk runs things in 256*224 without caring18:08
johnxlcuk, not everyone is as enlightened as you. actually you can see which apps play nice just by turning on rotation support :)18:08
GeneralAntilleslcuk, you're not using bitmapped themes.18:08
johnxGeneralAntilles, gaah. don't remind me about the art I'd need to redo for a real VGA layout :/18:09
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lcukyeah johnx agreed entirely, heads in about a zillion places ill just sit back for a while :)18:10
johnxlcuk, I mean a lot of apps might actually work ok, but I think things like toolbars are going to have issues once they get much below 720 horizontal18:10
johnxlcuk, and I do appreciate being poked at to defend what I'm saying :) keeps me from making assumptions18:11
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zeldaquatix: thnx for clarification :)18:13
aquatixzeld: you're welcome :)18:13
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TheFatalany1 had test the mana world on N810 ??18:19
khertan_n980i'm back ...18:20
khertan_n980for ten minutes18:20
qwerty12khertan_n980, psst, how did you get your hands on the new tablet?18:21
Stskeepsn980? ;)18:22
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khertan_n980Stskeeps: yep ... a n98018:27
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khertan_n980the pc i use to do http tunneling  ... to be honest it s a NCD NC900 N980 - RM5231 165 Mhz18:28
khertan_n980slower than the nit :)18:28
johnxan honest to god XTerminal?18:30
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Stskeepsparents evening? the thing where they drag in your parents to school for a talk about how you are doing as a pupil?18:42
johnxouch. qwerty12's in trouble18:43
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lcukqwertys parents: "You have done badly in school, you are ungrounded for a week.  i demand you go straight to the park and play with your friends immediately"18:45
khertan_n980ouch tablet freezed !18:45
khertan_n980just by removing usb cable18:45
khertan_n980ssh say .... : metalayer-crawler ...18:46
khertan_n980again :)18:46
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TheFatalhtop works fine in N 81018:46
TheFatalnow i'm trying the mana world18:46
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TheFatalerror 40418:51
johnxah, right. i was supposed to take some screenies18:51
AStormdrop the pointless img tags18:51
johnxgot distracted by food18:51
TheFataltezst xD18:52
Stskeepsstudy shows high caffeine intake can cause visual and auditory hallucinations, as well as making people think that others are "out to get them"18:52
Stskeepswell that explains a lot18:52
* GAN800 plots against Stskeeps.18:52
johnxStskeeps, nah, caffeine just shows you the truth, man. gotta watch out18:53
khertan_n980404 ?18:53
johnxKhertan_n810, he pasted the whole link with img tags18:53
TheFatalkhertan_n980: delete [/IMG]18:53
khertan_n980ah yes ... stupid mibbit !18:53
Stskeepsjohnx: it certainly explains some people on iTT18:53
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AStormStskeeps: high as in very18:54
StskeepsAStorm: 3 cups seems to be enough18:54
AStormnot if you're accustomed18:54
TheFatalN810 have armel o arm ??18:54
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TheFatal cool gadget :P18:55
AStormthe domain is parked18:55
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TheFatallet me see18:56
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* TheFatal is searching for a cool gadget 18:57
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Stskeepsevening konttori :)19:01
AStormTheFatal: what about a portable fridge?19:01
AStormcool enough?19:01
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TheFatali'm searching for a watch how no need energy19:03
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AStorma menu19:04
TheFataluse water to show the time, using the "electrons"19:04
TheFatalelectrones in spanish19:04
konttoriStskeeps: evening19:05
StskeepsAStorm: hehehe :>19:06
TheFatalforget it19:06
Stskeepsjohnx: woo :)19:06
konttorigood news on the qt licensing today19:06
wazdhey there Konttori19:06
Stskeepsjohnx: how about hildon-desktop? any changes?19:06
AStormStskeeps: care to hack the gtk to autohildonize menus?19:06
johnxkonttori, yup, saw the news. That should make quite a few things simpler19:07
johnxStskeeps, nope, just conf files and a new theme19:07
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Stskeepsso it looks screwed up?19:07
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* r2d2rogers wonders how well a usb keyboard would work for Mer19:07
r2d2rogers... I can't type into the first boot wizard...19:08
johnxStskeeps, you mean right now? well that is hildon-deskop, but without the left panel. the status area is there19:08
Stskeepsr2d2rogers: ah. sapwood.19:08
johnxand yeah, I still have a little tweakign to do as you can see. things still aren't lining up quite right19:09
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Stskeepsr2d2rogers: don't kill your 770 with powering the usb through a self made usb power supply hack19:09
johnxprobably need to start from scratch and make a nice big equation for everything19:09
r2d2rogersStskeeps: yup prolly, but it even locks up the telnet session now too19:09
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Stskeepsr2d2rogers: i'm still really puzzled what the problem is with sapwood on 770 :/19:19
r2d2rogerswhy doesn't the same thing happen under n8x0s?19:20
r2d2rogersthat's about the only angle I can think off19:21
r2d2rogersis it useful to look at the kernel??19:21
johnxr2d2rogers, you mean sapwood? it seems to be architecture dependent19:21
r2d2rogersI need to dig into just what the 770 processor is I guess,19:22
johnxr2d2rogers, do you have a gregale (os2006) scratchbox install?19:23
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johnxhmm, though not that it would help to link it against an old gtk19:23
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r2d2rogersjohnx: I don't ahve any scratch box setup at the moment....19:24
r2d2rogersStskeeps: looks like the lockout on telnet isn't sapwood, unless it's started from something other than start-hildon now19:28
Stskeepsjott: Fixes: NB#93075 - Update icon size constants to Fremantle19:31
johnxwhat is that from?19:31
Stskeepsre icon problem19:31
johnxah, so maybe it's just that we're playing with versions of stuff never really meant to go together?19:32
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infobotSargun: Have you had your vi today?19:33
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Sargun~onjoin #maemo Sargun19:44
Sargun~onjoin -Sargun19:44
infobotok, Sargun19:44
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infobotSargun: Have you had your vi today?19:44
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r2d2rogersStskeeps, johnx: found the other sapwood reference in the first-boot-wizard and removed it, now I see the "Please type your full name.", the OK and cancel, and the blinking cursor.19:50
Stskeepswe should probably if [ -x /platform-dislikes-sapwood ] or somehing..19:50
r2d2rogersyeah, for the moment...19:50
r2d2rogerssadly I don't get the hildon input method popping up19:51
Stskeepsit worked without sapwood or?19:51
Stskeepsyou can probably "just" dpkg --remove first-boot-wizard19:52
r2d2rogersit worked before I got the first boot on the imager run I did last night19:52
r2d2rogerswill try19:52
r2d2rogersI don't know why the usbnet stops responding...19:52
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wazd - Real-life Mer UI :)20:22
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johnxhonestly? that's actually running?20:24
mrpwhat is working on 770 Mer?20:24
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wazdjohnx: nope :P20:24
johnxwazd, :P20:25
wazdjohnx: but looks cool anyway :D20:25
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johnxwazd, might not be impossible even with our current software base really...20:25
johnxmrp, it boots, but there are issues with the theme engine20:26
RST38hwazd: cool, is it for real?20:26
RST38hwazd: and if it is, I think you still need to do something about close/minimize icons ;)20:26
wazdRST38h: nah, just a mockup of course :) To illustrate how it will look in real life :)20:27
wazdRST38h: First of all I need to do something with your icons since they are next in my to-do list :)20:28
johnxwazd, so what icon drops down the menu?20:28
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wazdjohnx: mer20:28
RST38hthanks =)20:28
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mrp770 being my only IT (daily used) not yet suitable for my testing then?20:28
johnxmrp, if you're planning to help it's a good time to start I think, but if you expect something that you can use, then not yet20:29
Stskeepsmrp: what kind of skills do you have? ARM assembly and debugging could come in very handy atm :>20:30
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johnxmrp, keep in mind that only one person related to the mer project actually has a 770 so if other people don't step up to help, then it might not anywhere very fast20:30
wazdmrp: Mer now is not ready for daily using so you have to wait :)20:30
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Stskeepsjohnx: i suspect we can use marquee-plugins to pull off something like wazd's stuff20:31
Stskeepsthey're ubuntu desktop stuff20:31
johnxyeah, I had a bit of a headache last time I tried, but I might give it another shot later20:32
mrpStskeeps, ARM assembly- you lost me already :(20:32
wazdStskeeps: why do we need ubuntu's desktop when we have Personal Launcher?)20:32
johnxwazd, ubuntu mobile is maemo based and has the launcher you need to setup the layout you just mocked up :)20:33
wazdjohnx: aw, ok)20:33
Stskeepsjohnx: looks like a hildon plugin really20:34
johnxis it a task navigator?20:34
Stskeepswell one amongst others20:34
Stskeepsderived from task navigator item20:34
Stskeepstry read the README of the src20:34
johnxah, right20:34
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Stskeepswazd: i think that mer mockup deserves a blog post though ;)20:37
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Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: i see they didn't take away your tablet yet20:40
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qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, give it time... :D20:40
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wazdStskeeps: the only thing this mockup lacks is "detailed" task switcher20:41
Khertan_n810_78mnotes pushed in extras-devel ... :)20:41
johnxKhertan_n810, it's python, right?20:42
Khertan_n810_78the things is : it s only a mockup20:42
Khertan_n810_78johnx: right20:42
Stskeepswazd: maybe you can abuse the >> where things overflow into20:42
Khertan_n810_78arg ! i ve forgotten a dependancy !20:42
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Khertan_n810_78hum ... own record owned : load averge 5.6720:47
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wazdStskeeps: wtw, is notification message place hackable?20:49
wazdlike "loading" and stuff20:49
Khertan_n810_78i ve tryed to use adblock to remove this ad which slow down the device ... but using it on a nit slow down more than displaying ad20:50
wazdStskeeps: right now it covers the scrollbar which is superannoying20:50
Stskeepswazd: top right or bottom left one?20:50
qwerty12_N800Khertan_n810_78, css & hosts20:50
wazdStskeeps: top-right20:50
Stskeepswazd: well. everything is hackable. but how much of it is themeable is a different story20:51
Khertan_n810_78qwerty : yep but i need to do it myself20:51
r2d2rogersStskeeps: ahha network applet messing up the usbnet I bet20:52
johnxKhertan_n810, I just got rid of flash entirely :)20:52
Khertan_n810_78i ve disable it too20:53
Stskeepsr2d2rogers: entirely possible yes20:53
Khertan_n810_78but mibbit eat many ressources20:53
Stskeepsr2d2rogers: i'll put interfaces in 770 too20:53
johnxKhertan_n810, aaah, right, and you need to use mibbit to get around your ISP's firewall right?20:54
r2d2rogersk, I'm using the flash maemo to do some tinkering, but I've tacking down odd reboots, suspect metalayer crawler...20:54
Khertan_n810_78my phone data plan suck20:54
johnxKhertan_n810_78, you can't run a proxy server or something on your desktop at home? or on another server somewhere?20:55
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Khertan_n810_78johnx i could ...20:57
Khertan_n810_78but i ven t found the time to configure ikt yet20:57
johnxKhertan_n810, sounds better than web-based IRC :)20:57
Khertan_n810_78i should set sshd on port 80 ... :)20:57
johnxanother good plan :)20:58
Khertan_n810_78on my home computer20:58
johnxdo they block https?20:58
Khertan_n810_78just need to found how with ubuntu is the setting20:58
Khertan_n810_78johnx: sometimes20:58
Khertan_n810_78not always20:58
Khertan_n810_78yeah this suck20:58
Khertan_n810_78but it s unlimited :)20:59
Khertan_n810_78i like how all isp se this word20:59
Khertan_n810_78great lie !20:59
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johnxwell, an unlimited plan here is too expensive so I don't have any "real" web access on the train :P20:59
qwerty12_N800Khertan_n810_78, to change sshd port, edit Port line in /etc/ssh/sshd_config20:59
Khertan_n810_78johnx: real unlimited plan is expensive too ere21:00
Khertan_n810_78by real i mean with full access not only port 8021:00
Khertan_n810_78but i fear that the sshd 80 port will be blocked too21:01
johnxah, well. I think my plan has full access but I get about 10MB "free" then it's pay-per-KB21:01
r2d2rogersreboots seem to have been out of memory erros again21:01
r2d2rogerson the maemo side21:01
Khertan_n810_78as for accessing web page i need to set the user agent to a mobile21:01
Khertan_n810_78like 'nokian95'21:01
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qwerty12_N800r2d2rogers, do you ever feel like smashing your 770 out of frustration? :)21:02
Khertan_n810_78i pay 18Euro for one hour of voice call + 9Euros for this unlimited plan21:02
Khertan_n810_78for a real ulimited plan it s 69Euros21:02
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r2d2rogersqwerty12_N800: well,  you should see the metal cover .....21:02
Khertan_n810_78or 1Euros by Mb21:02
qwerty12_N800the dpad area on my N800 is kinda funky. let's just say that I'm able to see more of the led when it glows...21:03
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r2d2rogersqwerty12_N800: I can imagine, I ahve rubbed off the power symbol on my work laptop's power button...21:04
r2d2rogersjust rebooted again21:04
r2d2rogerswonder what's havingthe fit21:04
Khertan_n810_78i think there is a proxy as making a rezquest without user agent result in : '403'21:05
Khertan_n810_78can t do ping too21:05
Khertan_n810_78maybe i should try tunneling by dns port21:05
johnxKhertan_n810, that's really slow21:06
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Khertan_n810_78yep this could be a problem21:07
Khertan_n810_78but if there is a proxy scanning user agent i doubt a ssh connection by port 80 will be a succes21:07
r2d2rogersStskeeps: I found an interface file in the /etc/network directory, it was setup for the host/PC side of the connection21:08
r2d2rogerscorrected and trying again21:08
Khertan_n810_78how can i set the ssh password of rsync by ssh without letting a daemon running all tghe time21:09
Khertan_n810_78or add a rsa key auth21:09
Khertan_n810_78i don t found any solution21:09
Stskeepsadd a rsa key auth, it's easy21:10
Stskeepsand doesnt require a daemon21:10
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Stskeepsif you are ok with not password protecting the private key21:10
Khertan_n810_78yep this is the problem21:12
r2d2rogersnetwrok lag due to my incompetance21:12
r2d2rogersedited my PC's /etc/network/interfaces21:13
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Khertan_n810_78i prefer to have an unsecure connection ... using ftp than a private without pass21:14
Khertan_n810_78as i can crypt the data before transfering it21:14
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StskeepsKhertan_n810_78: then only way to do it is through an ssh agent :P21:14
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Khertan_n810_78train is going underground ... so no more connection... bye21:15
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Khertan_n810_78and thx for tips21:16
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r2d2rogersStskeeps: on doing it correctly, the interface file keeps the usbnet working very well21:20
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Stskeepsyou know, with the internet and all, i'm surprised the social media isn't swarming with the typical "bush is going to declare martial law before he leaves office" or the likes21:21
Stskeepsdid they already round up all the conspiracy theorists? ;)21:21
r2d2rogersbut I don't get any touch screen respnse.....21:21
Stskeepsr2d2rogers: i've pushed imager updates for 770 btw21:21
johnxStskeeps, we convinced the conspiracy nuts we could control them through hidden mind control chips in their computers :)21:22
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r2d2rogershow well does bzr run under maemo? <G>21:23
* aquatix hides a window labelled `Control center'21:23
Stskeepsr2d2rogers: decently, if you get qwerty's port, and python21:24
r2d2rogerswill dig, for now I just got dns going again, so I can get out from the Mer instance21:26
AStormI guess slower than usual21:26
AStormand it's not fast to start with21:26
r2d2rogersqwerty12_N800: yeah, that rebooting is getting a tad annoying.......21:27
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Stskeepsjohnx: we desperately need to get either 1) an xterm 2) ability for load-applet to kill root things or 3) a shut down button..21:27
qwerty12r2d2rogers, hehe, I had to disable watchdog to install gnome in deblet via maemo :)21:27
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r2d2rogersI'm getting reboots in Mer too21:28
r2d2rogersthinking to swap to the other 770 for a hardware check21:28
johnxStskeeps, so osso-xterm doesn't behave in mer right, roxterm (and other xterms probably?) don't work with h-i-m21:29
johnxa shutdown menu item might be realistic21:29
Stskeepsjohnx: and libvte9 doesnt work with our for some strange reasons..21:29
Stskeepsmaybe it needs a recompile21:29
Stskeepsqwerty12's maemo port should work21:29
qwerty12Maybe not, in Maemo, roxterm automatically detects h-i-m. I only did changes to the window etc, I never touched the input method :)21:30
johnxso our vte?21:30
Stskeepsqwerty12: yeah, but you also use libvte9 i guess?21:31
qwerty12Have you just tried applying maemo's vte4 "maemo_changes" patch to vte9?21:31
qwerty12a lot of input method stuff gets handled there21:31
Stskeepsi will, but it'll be first after the 23rd :/21:32
Stskeepsjohnx: btw - , comment 921:33
Stskeepshe contacted wazd so i asked him to pass him on to this channel :)21:33
qwerty12Stskeeps, sounds *very* promising :)21:34
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johnxStskeeps, ah, good! I looked at that and it seems to fit the bill. Will be great to have a couple "Mer exclusives" :)21:35
johnxso MerEcho and this21:35
Stskeepsand whatever wazd comes up with ;)21:36
johnxoh! I kinda washed over the other part of that post the first time too21:36
johnxhe wants to help with low level stuff. woo!21:37
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johnxwazd is doing great PR so far :D21:38
Stskeepsjohnx: now we just need one of meiz's trademark videos of the boot process ;)21:39
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johnxone more screenshot, then bed:
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Stskeepsthat could almost run on a cellphone, yeah ;)21:42
Stskeepswtf, help works? :P21:42
johnxyeah, scared me too :)21:42
Stskeepsqwerty12: you were speaking of a matchbox patch at some point btw21:43
Stskeepsregarding window placement21:43
johnxbut we compiled libhildonhelp so ... guess that was it21:43
thopiekarI've got two questions... why is it so important to make a usb-network between the device and the pc to developt with esbox or pluthon? and why is the ip-adress in these plugins not changeable to link the plugins to wifi?21:43
johnxhowever, I can't *close* the help window21:44
Stskeepsjohnx: <21:44
Stskeepsor whatever the return thing is21:44
Stskeepsoh, right, vga21:44
Stskeeps"esc" :P21:44
qwerty12Stskeeps, grr, if you set matchbox mode to free then by default, it fucks up the dialog sizes & placements. Matan released a replacement matchbox binary which solves those problems in free mode. But he didn't release a diff. He doesn't seem to scared of releasing source so if you ask him for the patch, I'm sure that he will happily oblige.21:45
Stskeepsqwerty12: alright, ta, will ask him21:45
johnxStskeeps, my escape key sends F3 I believe :(21:45
Jaffathopiekar: using the new versions of the plugins or the old ones?21:45
thopiekarthe newest... but let my check it once again..21:46
RST38hSymbian again.21:47
JaffaI think the reason is that a) not many people are using them, b) the developers aren't using it in day-to-day development, c) it works for them, and that's enough21:47
* Jaffa has been thinking today again about Eclipse-based IDEs for JVM-based Maemo development:
Stskeepsjohnx: weird fact btw - gnome-keyring comes up unthemed21:48
johnxhuh...must not inherit some env variable21:48
johnxcan you run it manually?21:49
Stskeepsi didn't investigate it that deepily21:49
Stskeepsi suspect i -want- to run it manually, since i want to get rid of it :P21:49
Stskeepsand just store its bloody keys and leave me in peace :P21:49
johnxyeah :)21:49
RST38hJaffa: you mention WebOS as being "nicer" but you haven't really seen it yet21:50
johnxI think we can safely say this is one of those times when the user should have most of roots privileges21:50
RST38hJaffa: have you actually tried Android development btw?21:51
JaffaRST38h: Not in terms of the platform (well, apart from the technical API details and debugging screenshots which are leaking out), but in terms of developer friendliness, I'm willing to put a fiver on it being better than Scratchbox, rootstraps and the rest.21:52
JaffaRST38h: Some simple stuff. I'm not talking (really) about the development platform, but the developer *tools*.21:52
Stskeepsbtw, what do you people think QT being LGPL'ed will mean for mobile UIs? i mean, with it in symbian, maemo, and easily adaptable for embedded devices, and stable and well documented21:52
RST38hJaffa: You mean the IDE?21:52
Stskeepsis it going to aid in the "fight" against android UI api and others?21:52
JaffaRST38h: amongst other things, yes.21:53
RST38hJaffa: I don't think there are other things, a debugger maybe...21:53
johnxStskeeps, it is a huge blessing. pyqt is nice and simple21:53
RST38hdevelopment-wise Java is actually more of a problem than C/C++ (classpath etc)21:53
JaffaRST38h: Debugger's a big one. Remote debugging, even better. Have you seen the videos of iPhone development.21:53
RST38hNo, but I do not use debuggers much anyway21:54
StskeepsJaffa: some of that matches some of my thoughts regarding SDK i had initially :)21:54
RST38hprintf() usually solves all my problems21:54
johnxJaffa, is that the part where the apple sends the guy an NDA or where he can't run his app in the background :>21:54
thopiekarJaffa: I've got the newest plugin versions installed, but i can't even find a way to change the ip'S21:54
JaffaRST38h: Classpath's not really been an issue for the last 5 years or so. And now even with things like OSGi you can have multiple classpath versions in the same JVM21:54
RST38hMULTIPLE classpathes?21:55
JaffaRST38h: You're not going to start arguing that because you find printf() a perfectly satisfactory debugging technique, everyone else should too.21:55
RST38hI have problems with a single one, honestly...21:55
RST38hJaffa: nah, not starting an argument here21:55
RST38hJaffa: Just saying that for me personally debugger isn't a priority21:55
JaffaRST38h: multiple classpath version things. Useful for plugin environments where you want to run multiple separate plugins in the same environment, without resolving any dependency issues.21:55
RST38hJaffa: Don't want to run any Java.21:56
RST38hUsually crashes on my computer anyway21:56
Jaffajohnx: And, no - I'm not praising Apple's business practices. Their device. Or the iPhone. Just development tooling. Post-run profiling and debugging, remotely is a pretty compelling demo.21:57
wazdPalm Pre is for pussies. New Obama's smartphone is for real men :D21:57
johnxJaffa, I largely agree with you that maemo development tools (and especially tool setup) could be better. I was just having a dig :)21:57
RST38hwazd: WinMobile? naah21:57
RST38hwazd: He should be running EPOC16 to be a real man21:57
Jaffajohnx: bad time; *really* bad time ;-)21:57
wazdRST38h: It's Win CE :)21:57
RST38hwazd: he has got on his phone!21:58
Stskeepswazd: so has problems on the same days that zunes does? :P21:58
wazdStskeeps: as I've read that Zune problem was actualy CPU problem :)21:59
RST38hJaffa: I would say, a more useful idea would be to improve C/C++ debugging and development21:59
RST38hJaffa: Let us say, take Geany on the desktop and integrate it with gdb running on the device21:59
RST38hJaffa: And instead of the dreadful scratchbox, use plain ssh to connect and run gdb21:59
Stskeepsgdbserver..? :P22:00
RST38hsomething like that22:00
JaffaRST38h: Absolutely. More sensible development tools would be great. Go to it. Personally, I'm having difficulty motivating myself to do the things I want to do at the moment. And dealing with low-level C APIs, ain't it.22:00
RST38hJaffa: The above stuff does not involve dealing with C22:01
RST38hJaffa: Ironically, it is mostly shell scripting22:01
RST38hJaffa: And possibly some perl/python to parse gdb output22:01
JaffaYes, but despite supporting improving C tools; since I don't want to *use* C tools, where's my itch?22:01
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RST38hJaffa: Dunno, maybe do the same for Python instead?22:02
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RST38hJaffa: Doing it for Java is kinda impractical because nobody wants to use Java22:02
StskeepsJaffa: btw, you're speaking in similar lines of some thoughts quim had in a convo i had him over maemo reconstructed22:02
RST38hJaffa: You may want to do it for JavaScript/XUL, THAT would be interesting22:02
lcuki think we should disable all other computers and work entirely from the tablets for a week.  we would streamline lots of things ;)22:03
Stskeepsregarding the supporting different languages (python, javascript, etc)22:03
RST38hJaffa: But tthe JS/XUL stuff has to start with creating a decent execution environment22:03
RST38hlcuk: I did that22:03
lcukRST38h, bull!!! certainly you or I dont like java, but lots do22:03
RST38hlcuk: Haven't done much development but read a lot of books :)22:03
RST38hlcuk: If lots of people liked Java, Jalimo would have gotten wider use by now22:03
Stskeepsis jalimo even in extras?22:04
RST38hlcuk: Which leads to conclusion that not a lot of people like Java22:04
RST38hIt is22:04
lcukwe are asked extremely often "does the device run java"   they get a big fat ummmm no not really22:04
Stskeepsdidn't know that22:04
RST38hYou can install it right away22:04
AStormlcuk: can't you build us GNU classpath?22:04
AStormit'd run at least some Java that way22:04
RST38hlcuk: That is a question about j2me not java22:04
RST38hlcuk: And I remember  ablog post about jalimo running j2me now22:05
RST38hJaffa: BTW, want an idea?22:05
lcukAStorm, im not a java person22:05
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JaffaStskeeps: no, there's been some discussion: a) it's not quite ready, b) since it's cross-platform they're using the OpenEmbedded build process which wouldn't work well with the autobuilder.22:07
RST38hJaffa: There is already a project to make Google Gadgets run on Maemo. You can take THAT, get it to product condition and add a debugger to it22:07
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JaffaGoogle Gadgets aren't applications.22:08
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RST38hJaffa: This would be extremely cool as it 1) gives you a library of gadgets 2) implements your idea of everything being a scriptable object 3) gets publicity22:08
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JaffaAnd if "noone" wanted to use Java, it wouldn't be one of the most used languages on the planet.22:08
RST38hJaffa: They look like applications to me22:08
JaffaRST38h: my "idea of everything being a scriptable object"?22:09
JaffaRST38h: they look like applets/portlets/widgets/gadgets to me.22:09
RST38hJaffa: well you obviously like webOS22:09
RST38hJaffa: you also like Android22:09
lcukjaffa, technically whats the difference between an app and a gadget/widget thingy?22:09
RST38hJaffa: Yes, but when widget stops being an application?22:09
RST38hJaffa: they live on the desktop they are written in JavaScript (right?), so that must be IT>22:10
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JaffaRST38h: I like the concept of webOS from an abstract technical point of view. If you've read my comments (I don't expect you to hang on my every word) you'll also know I see lots of intrinsic problems with doing anything really complex (i.e. SSH clients)22:10
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RST38hAlthough I guess you can always add a native API for that and call it22:11
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JaffaRST38h: Assuming you're not being facetious, an application is something which fits in with the style guidelines and user experience of the rest of the system. A widget sits somewhere central and looks pretty.22:11
lcukscripted languages get best performance and advantages when backed up with native libraries :)22:11
JaffaRST38h: Well, assuming Palm let you.22:11
RST38hJaffa: With google widgets on the tablet you do not need to ask palm's permission22:11
lcukjaffa ;) technically im sure its possible to make scruffy ugly widgets which do everything a bad business app does22:12
lcukRST38h, palm widgets are html arent they?22:12
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lcukrendered with webkit or something?22:12
RST38hlcuk: no idea, palm claims they are22:12
lcukdoesnt seem unreasonable :)22:13
RST38hlcuk: but before we see the sdk, can't tell22:13
lcukeven when you do you might not see the 'binary' produced from your source ;)22:13
RST38hwell doing shaped widgets in html is somewhat unoptimal22:13
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lcukmaybe raw html it is, but i thought weve had transparent stuff for yonks.  besides, where do you see shaped widgets?22:14
lcuki recall most ui stuff being same as anywhere else22:14
RST38hgreen dialpad  for example22:15
* r2d2rogers tries to figure out why his touchscreen isn't working22:17
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Stskeepsr2d2rogers: check Xorg.0.log?22:18
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r2d2rogersStskeeps: looking at it now... looks fine22:18
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r2d2rogerssets up TslibDevice as /dev/input/event222:18
Stskeepsdid we agree that was the right event file?22:19
Stskeepsalso, we disabled the cursor22:19
Stskeepsbut that's long ago22:19
* wazd still tries to think over notifications and task switcher22:19
r2d2rogersI can cat the device and only get output when I'm touching the screen22:19
r2d2rogerswhere in the initfs is the firmware again?22:20
Stskeepscant recall22:20
RST38hwazd: btw there is one problem with showing task switcher at the top22:20
RST38hwazd: you now share a relatively short strip of the screen between status bar applets, task switcher, and window titles22:21
r2d2rogerssts you got it ... thanks22:21
RST38hwazd: there is simply not enough space to accommodate them all22:21
wazdRST38h: there won't be window title :)22:22
StskeepsRST38h: task switcher overlaps into the switcher menu anyway?22:22
RST38hwazd: it may be better to remove separate icons for tasks completely and leave one taskswcher icon instead, the one that brings up tasks emnu22:22
RST38hwazd: and make that icon an applet, like other applets :)22:22
RST38hno window title -> not nice22:22
RST38hSts: ?22:22
wazdRST38h: why do you need title?) Useless feature imho22:23
wazdRST38H: good point bout switcher though22:23
RST38hI am used to titles, like 'em22:23
StskeepsRST38h: that on maemo the tasks that dont fit in, overflow into the >> then22:23
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wazdRST38h: but dropdown switcher would slow switching process in compare with original Maemo22:24
johnxRST38h, titles are fine when you have space to kill22:25
RST38hSts: yes, I suggest to keep only the >> icon and make it a status bar applet22:25
johnxwazd, I love seeing the mer logo but have you considered having the app menu use the same icon as the menu button on the n8x0 for clarity22:25
RST38hwazd: it will but just a littl ebit22:25
RST38hwazd: but it will free more space for status bar applets like a proper clock22:25
johnxRST38h, 2 clicks instead of 1 is a pain for one of the most often use cases22:26
Stskeepsb-man: want a new image to test with so you can be more prepared for 0.6?22:26
RST38hjohnx: true...22:26
b-manshure :)22:26
wazdRST38h: Right now there's a space for 7 applets and 7 tasks22:26
johnxRST38h, how about a button to show the title? :)22:26
wazdRST38h: I'm not sure you've launched more than 7 tasks on maemo :)22:27
Stskeepswazd: i launch ~7-8 :P22:27
Stskeepsbrowser windows can destroy things22:27
wazdStskepps: oh my :)22:27
wazdStskeeps: they are shown as one22:27
wazdStskeeps: icon with numbers22:28
* b-man was just finishing up building merinstaller-1.5.1-1_armel.deb22:28
johnxas long as there is a >> dropdown for tasks and a >> for applets it's not a problem22:28
b-manStskeeps: shure, i'll try out a nother image :)22:29
* johnx really sleeps22:29
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Stskeepsb-man: yeah, uploading it22:29
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wazdwe can even make not 7/7 but 6/8 or even 5/922:31
Stskeepscurrent issues: backspace in hildon-input-method kills Xorg, wifi isn't power saved, at all, and we have no dsme tools just yet :)22:31
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RST38hwazd: 7 applets is a bit low22:31
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: i have a jffs2 image too if you're bored. :P22:31
b-manStskeeps: k22:32
wazdRST38h: same as the original, but I agree that it's not so much22:32
wazdRST38h: that's why we can reallange numbers22:32
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, i'll have fun trying to flash it directly on the N800 :), but I guess it is not out of the realms of possibility that I use mtd-tools...22:33
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: hehe22:33
* b-man starts downloading new image using wget in ubuntu jaunty22:33
wazdWe can maybe even allow user to chose22:35
qwerty12_N800I've half-merged the maemo changes patch to vte9 but it's being pretty anal re compiling...22:35
Stskeepswazd: my favourite interface would be one i could lock/unlock and everything would be hildon home screen applets22:35
Stskeepsand some would have stronger z value/borders22:35
Stskeepsso you could set up your own layout22:36
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wazdStskeeps: that would be difficult for developers :)22:36
wazdStskeeps: since they don't know what layout user is using)22:36
Stskeepsyeah, true22:36
Stskeepsthey can learn some bloody window size independence then, or something22:36
b-manStskeeps: dsme-tools from deblet doesn't wor in mer? - it does in ubuntu jaunty22:37
b-manedit: work22:37
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ShadowJK<Stskeeps> they can learn some bloody window size independence then, or something22:37
zakkmb-man: you there?22:37
wazdSo, if you'll allow user to choose the number of tasks and applets shown - that would be super awesome22:37
ShadowJKabout bloody time22:37
b-manzakkm: yes22:38
zakkmb-man: im following your ubuntu januty guide and i got stuck at a part i was wondering if you could make it clear22:38
zakkmNext, we will copy over a bootstrap script witch will allow us to properly bootstrap Ubuntu Jaunty. Download the bootstrap-script.tar.gz file22:38
wazdThen he could even make tasks as a dropdown menu and full taskbar would be covered with applets :)22:38
wazdOr other way :)22:39
b-manwhat was the problem?22:39
zakkmso im doing this on my nokia right22:39
zakkmso idownloaded the tar.gz to "Nokia N800"22:39
zakkmthen im stuck22:39
b-mando you have debootstrap installed?22:40
zakkmis it just in apt-get?22:41
b-manyup :)22:41
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b-manyou will have to copy that file to /usr/share/devbootstrap/scripts22:41
Stskeepsb-man: btw did you remember the part about binutils and md5sum in your guide?22:41
roopeMer looks interesting. :)22:41
zakkmso i extract the tar.gz and copy contents to /usr/share/debootstrap/strips?22:41
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b-manzakkm: remember to un-pack it first ;)22:42
AStormhey, do we have a port of nethack to nit?22:42
qwerty12_N800there's a hildonized os2008 one somewhere22:43
zakkmno repo has binutils?22:43
qwerty12_N800or a terminal one elsewhere22:43
zakkmpackage binutils is not avaliable.. according to apt-get22:43
zakkmwhich debootstrap wants22:43
b-manzakkm: you might need to add the deblet repo then22:44
Stskeepsroope: it wouldn't be possible without all the work put into hildon etc by nokia though :) we hope it can benefit both community and benefit nokia. having a place community can run amok could yield interesting ideas :)22:44
zakkmdeblet repo for maemo?22:44
Stskeepsb-man: binutils is in sdk tools i think22:44
b-manzakkm: yes22:45
* b-man takes note of adding deblet repo to guide22:45
AStormqwerty12_N800, somewhere != extras22:45
Stskeepsb-man: and no, you don't need to add deblet repo though22:45
zakkmstskeeps: what should i do then22:45
Stskeepsdebootstrap is in extras(-devel)22:45
qwerty12_N800AStorm, somewhere =
zakkm? i have extras-devel22:45
zakkmno theres debootsrap but it wants binutils.. which isnt in it22:46
AStormnah, I had no meaningful hits22:46
AStormqwerty12_N800, gimme an url22:46
Stskeepsb-man: for md5:
Stskeepschmod +x, put in /bin22:46
b-manzakkm: try apt-get update and see if that helps22:46
b-manStskeeps: thanks22:46
zakkmdoubt it , but okay22:47
JaffaRST38h: ta. I see "Pandora", I don't think web radio, I think vapourwareish handheld ;-)22:47
qwerty12_N800AStorm, - knock yourself out ;)22:47
zakkmb-man: same thing22:48
b-manzakkm: if that fails, you can get the deblet repo from
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zakkmb-man: page is loading22:49
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RST38hJaffa: naah, different pandora. but read what he says about the sdk22:49
JaffaRST38h: Yeah, reading it now. Interesting stuff.22:50
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zakkmb-man: working good so far22:50
b-mancool :)22:51
zakkmb-man: so i unpack the tar.gz .. move file to /usr/share/debootstrap/scripts/jaunty and then do the insmod's?22:51
Shadow_Mhey so i am using the internal email client on n810 to access my gmail imap on that account using the web interface i can send emails from more than one address is that achievable22:52
Shadow_Malso internal keyboard ftw!22:53
b-manStskeeps: silly question; what is the purpose of md5sums and binutills, and how are thay used?22:53
Stskeepsb-man: binutils, unpacking the packages, md5sum, validating downloads22:53
zakkmis the wikipedia offline thingy any useful?22:54
Stskeepszakkm: do you go to any pub quizzes?22:54
Shadow_Mnoooo dont use md522:54
zakkmpub quizzes?22:54
zakkmwhats that?22:54
zakkmohh -.-22:54
zakkmno but im in highschool?22:54
b-mani am too22:54
zakkmi mean like is it a well-done application22:54
Stskeepsdrinking games based on answering quizzes :P22:54
Stskeepsat that point, offline wikipedia -is very usefu-22:55
JaffaRST38h: I think he hits the nail on the head (as we supposed): a certain class of apps will be easy to write, will integrate well and make dealing with high-level XML/JSON-based upstream web content easy. But somethings will be hard, properly Hard. Then again, everyone wrote Nintendo off for releasing a system which was underpowered compared with their competitors, but the games were still compelling enough to sell. Casual gaming is on a resurgence, AIU22:55
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RST38hJaffa: This problem is different from Nintendo's22:55
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RST38hJaffa: Nintendo may have had underpowered hardware but did not restrict access to it, so you could code all assembly you wanted22:56
Shadow_Manyohne on the internal email client22:56
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StskeepsShadow_M: nah, i use claws mail22:56
Stskeepsmodest makes me want to punch my tablet occasionally, so22:56
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Stskeepsand i like my tablet.22:56
RST38hJaffa: Here you have another (definitely not the first, after Android and the initial Apple effort) attempt to make an "easy" API for app developers22:57
Shadow_Mah something about claws that i didnt like22:57
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JaffaRST38h: To an extent. You can't do photo-realistic gaming on a Wii (without stupid amounts of hand-optimisation which just isn't economical) and can on an Xbox 360/PS3. You (probably) can't do much in the way of high-speed first person shooters on webOS; but you can do puzzle/simple/casual games like Tetris.22:57
RST38hJaffa: And, of course, if you use web page tools to write an app then any app that is not a web page will be difficult to write22:57
r2d2rogersanyone got a hint for getting bluetooth keyboard working from commandline?22:57
Shadow_Mi tried it didnt like it all that much and i havnt had an issue with modest and i dont want to punch mine22:57
RST38hJaffa: Let me take another cheap shot22:58
RST38hJaffa: How about Chess? ;)22:58
JaffaRST38h: And the great thing about Maemo is that you're not limited to a single API or a single layer. No-one's arguing about that. But having a better system's useless if no-one's developing for it.22:58
RST38hJaffa: Nobody is developing for webOs YET22:58
JaffaRST38h: I think the "not a web page" argument doesn't hold water with the way that things like HTML5 and rich JavaScript apps are going.22:58
RST38hJaffa: So let us not be hasteful with analysis22:58
JaffaRST38h: Well, no-one outside the commercial pre-launch partners.22:58
RST38hJaffa: In reality, the "not a web page" argument is not as black-and-white as I have stated it22:59
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RST38hJaffa: Rather, it feels like "the less static your application is, the more difficult it is to do in HTML and JS"22:59
JaffaRST38h: I'd happily put (some) money on more apps being in Palm's App Catalog within, say, 3 months of launch than there are in after 2 years.22:59
JaffaRST38h: No argument from me.23:00
JaffaRST38h: So the "no-one's developing for webOS *YET*" is a valid point, but I think we can safely extrapolate.23:00
RST38hBut my suspicion is that at some point Palm will break and publish a native API23:00
sistoi have a new printer :D23:00
RST38hJaffa: Can't safely extrapolate in this business23:00
JaffaWhether anyone will be developing for it in 3 years time, who knows. (Then again, same goes for Maemo ;-))23:00
RST38hJaffa: Way too many variables23:00
JaffaRST38h: Agreed. A native API is inevitable.23:00
RST38hJaffa: not just technical ones but economic, social, etc23:01
* b-man starts to be a little envyus about palm pre's UI23:01
JaffaPalm's business is dependent on Pre/webOS being a success.23:01
RST38hFor all I know, Palm may go tits up before it releases the Pre to the masses23:01
JaffaOr pull it pre-launch like the Foleo.23:01
RST38hThat would be a joke23:01
JaffaHmm, I wonder how much of Foleo's Linux-based OS is underneath webOS.23:02
RST38h"linux-based OS" is otherwise known as "linux", so all of it.23:02
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zakkmb-man: when i run the first insmod i get23:02
JaffaRST38h: Bollocks.23:02
zakkminsmod: cannot insert '/mnt/initfs/lib/modules/2.6.21-omap1/mbcache.ko': File exists (-1): File exists23:02
Stskeepszakkm: fine23:03
JaffaAndroid is Linux-based. So was the Zaurus OS. Same kernel, but the libraries building it up are different.23:03
qwerty12_N800ignore it, it means23:03
RST38hJaffa: All right, let us see23:03
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qwerty12_N800it's already inserted23:03
b-manzakkm: ignore those errors, i get them all the time ;)23:03
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zakkmoh okay :)23:03
zakkmi want to do this right23:03
RST38hJaffa: They have all got Linux kernel. They have all got libc/libm/libz/etc.23:03
suihkulokkifoleo was based on linux 2.423:03
Jaffasuihkulokki: It was?23:04
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suihkulokkiI doubt much from that port is going to be useful for a omap3 device :P23:04
RST38hJaffa: They have all got pretty much the same drivers. Same busybox. Same basic utilities (cat/ps/who/etc)23:04
zakkmb-man: how lnog would the debootstrap take? rough estimate23:04
RST38hJaffa: Some of them even got the same X11/SDL/etc23:04
JaffaRST38h: PulseAudio/ALSA/gstreamer? Xorg/kdrive/Framebuffer? Gtk/Qt/Clutter/WebKit?23:04
RST38hJaffa: These do not consitute a "system"23:04
RST38hJaffa: Your desktop PC may have ALL OF THEM at once23:05
b-manzakkm: 1/2 hour to 1.5 hours at best23:05
JaffaRST38h: So?23:05
zakkmohh error23:05
zakkmE: Couldn't download dists/jaunty/main/binary-armel/Packages23:05
suihkulokkiJaffa: see the last pic here:
* Jaffa ain't gonna get into a semantic debate now over what a "system" is. You win.23:05
RST38hJaffa: So what we have is the same Linux (not some "linux-based OS") with some different app frameworks on top23:05
b-manzakkm: how strong is your connection?23:06
zakkmit was like 3rd one23:06
Jaffasuihkulokki: Oh yeah.23:06
zakkmstrong enough23:06
zakkmW: was corrupt23:06
RST38hJaffa: It is actually important to understand so that next time when some Motorla is telling you of a miraculous "linux based system" you just know they have taken a standard embedded linux23:06
zakkmim sshing from my pc too23:06
zakkmso the connection has to be on23:06
RST38hand put some glazing on top23:06
suihkulokkibonus points for anyone who recognizes the "terminal" application from the version number :)23:06
JaffaRST38h: Montavista's "standard embedded Linux" or someone elses23:06
RST38hJaffa: The differences are usually cosmetic23:07
b-mandid you use my jaunty script? don't use the one that comes from debootstrap23:07
RST38hNow, if one of these companies takes Linux kernel and makes drastic changes to it, THAT is a linux based system indeed :)23:07
JaffaRST38h: Having put together at least 2 different Linux distributions (and a kernel does not an OS make), I think I understand what someone means by "Linux-based OS", thankyouverymuchkthxby23:07
zakkmyes i removed the symlink23:07
zakkmand copied the one from tar.gz23:07
RST38hthen no need to argue23:07
JaffaI don't like being patronised.23:08
* b-man ponders23:08
RST38hNot trying to patronise, but am trying to define things23:08
RST38hAlways the required first step before discussing them23:08
andre___lardman|gone, can i trick you into retesting in fremantle sdk pre alpha some of the kernel/dsp bugs you filed against diablo? or is the sdk still missing some of required components? :-/23:08
JaffaMost of the time, your over accurate desire to define things gets in the way of useful discussion.23:08
RST38hJaffa: that is because you take it for an argument :)23:08
lcukandre___, does the dsp work in the emulator?23:09
RST38hIt's not an argument yet, usually :)23:09
JaffaWho cares if webOS is "Linux-based" or "Linux"? I can't take an ARM Linux binary from one system and run it on the other. Application portability is a good a definition of an OS as any other.23:09
andre___lcuk, i simply don't know (never been hacking on low level stuff ever), hence i ask idiot questions :-D23:09
b-manzakkm: have you tryed re-connecting to the wed, that usually fixes it for me23:10
lcukseems reasonable :D i always thought the hardware emulation was minimal23:10
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zakkmokay i will23:10
lcukjaffa, RST38h the most important thing is that the term "webOS" is a complete lie :D23:10
RST38hJaffa: Sometimes you can :)23:10
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RST38hlcuk: Well, it is a trademark, not a lie23:11
qwerty12_N800andre___, qemu in diablo in diablo sdk cannot emulate even "standard" audio :)23:11
RST38hBut I guess that in physical reality "webOS" is basically a runtime framework on top of Linux23:11
RST38hSame as "Android" is just a java-like runtime23:11
lcukits a web browser23:11
zakkmb-man: same thing23:12
RST38hlcuk: Not based on what the PandoraFM guy said23:12
Jaffalcuk: did you see the interview above?23:12
lcuktheres an interview?23:12
zakkmb-man: going to pastebin it23:12
lcukgot it23:12
lcukthx ill read23:13
b-manzakkm: hmm, it looks like it might be a problem on the server side23:14
zakkma huh23:14
zakkmso should i wait a day or so?23:14
b-manmabe.. :(23:15
zakkmi wanted ubuntu ;p23:15
b-manzakkm: i'll see what the problem is soon, don't worry ;)23:16
* b-man takes a look..23:16
lcuk:D w00t they are gonna use flash23:16
b-man<update> zakkm, did you have bzip2 installed by eny chance?23:17
zakkmi should? ill double check though23:18
zakkmb-man: bzip2 is already the newest version.23:18
qwerty12_N800Did you install md5sum like Stskeeps said?23:19
zakkmoh well whatever, just thought it would be cool23:19
Stskeepswhat qwerty12_N800 said23:20
Stskeepsthe problem is exactly md5sum not installed in /bin/sh and chmod +x'ed23:20
Stskeeps /bin/md5sum23:20
Stskeepsnot /bin/sh23:20
b-manzakkm: don't give up :D23:20
Stskeepswhich would completely brick your tablet23:20
Shadow_Mnever give up23:20
Shadow_MStskeeps, could the tablet actually be bricked23:21
zakkmits called WSOD :)23:21
StskeepsShadow_M: if you overwrite NOLO you're pretty much fucked23:21
Stskeepsunlesss you do a cold flash, which is a special story23:21
Shadow_Mah hmm23:21
trenkaservice point can restore it23:22
Shadow_Meven if you ruin the os23:22
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Shadow_Mi mean i thought generally it was just like another linux comp23:23
b-manzakkm: Packages.bz2 unpacked for me.. hmmm23:23
r2d2rogersStskeeps: ssh -X is nice for getting through the first boot wizard, X tunneled through ssh let me complete the wizard23:23
zakkmb-man: ill reinstall bzip2 and try agin23:23
* b-man does some more pondering...23:23
zakkmSetting up bzip2 (1.0.4-2maemo5) ...23:24
zakkmif that helps at all?23:24
zakkmb-man: same error23:25
Stskeepszakkm: ls -l /bin/md5sum23:25
zakkmNokia-N800-43-7:~# ls -l /bin/md5sum23:25
zakkmls: /bin/md5sum: No such file or directory23:25
Stskeepswell there you go.23:25
zakkmmy fault?23:26
Shadow_Mthey told you to install that23:26
b-manzakkm: that's the problem! XD23:26
Stskeepsput in /bin/md5sum23:26
Stskeepschmod +x /bin/md5sum23:26
qwerty12_N800Kinda funny when Stskeeps said it and I pointed it out again ;)23:26
Stskeepstry again.23:26
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: i've said it three times now.23:26
Shadow_Mi heard ya23:26
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, hehe :p23:26
zakkmthought u2 were talking to eachother23:26
zakkmnot to me23:26
Stskeeps[22:18] <qwerty12_N800> Did you install md5sum like Stskeeps said?23:27
zakkmNokia-N800-43-7:/bin# ls -l /bin/md5sum23:27
zakkm-rwxr-xr-x    1 root     root        19971 Oct  4 16:45 /bin/md5sum23:27
zakkmsorrry :(23:27
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: we need to figure out a way to determine which /dev/mmc is the internal and which is the external.. a sane way, that is23:27
zakkmyay it goes :)23:27
zakkmStskeeps: just a thought, wouldnt internal be mounted first by maemo?23:28
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: i'm thinking .. /proc/partitions, mknod somewhere23:28
Stskeepszakkm: it's not that easy it somewhere23:28
* b-man is definetly adding md5sums to guide ;)23:28
zakkmb-man: by the time im done installing, your have to redo the guide ;p23:28
qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, :/, N810 is the ultimate fuck up device :(23:28
b-manzakkm: lol23:29
Stskeepsqwerty12_N800: and then using that mknod to mkfs on and mount and such, and get internal/external based on sysfs23:29
zakkmb-man: how much does it download?23:29
zakkmthis script?23:29
b-mannot quite shure... if i can recall, 128-200 mb23:29
Stskeepsb-man: s/shure/sure/ ;)23:30
Stskeeps(spelling nazi.)23:30
Stskeeps<-, that is23:30
b-mani've herd that one!23:30
b-man"spelling natzi"23:30
zakkmb-man: how fast is ubuntu on it?23:31
zakkmgnome that is23:31
b-manif you use swap, not so bad :)23:31
zakkmcould i replace window manager?23:31
b-mani'm not shure23:32
b-manstskeeps: sorry if my spelling is horible, i'm using a on-screen kb most of the time ;p23:33
zakkm would that be possible to use?23:34
Stskeepsb-man: fair enough23:34
Stskeepsb-man: you can remove text completion errors with tap and hold ;)23:34
Stskeepsaccording to Benson, at least23:34
Shadow_Mb-man link to the guide?23:35
b-manhold on (my tablet is being slow)23:36
Stskeepsb-man: you code on your tablet too?23:36
Stskeepsas in, directly23:36
b-manyes :)23:37
Stskeepswell that explains some things i guess23:37
b-manhehe XD23:37
Shadow_Mi think its time to get a external keyboard23:37
Shadow_Mmaybe bluetooth23:37
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b-manStskeeps: that's why i'm getting a laptop :)23:39
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Stskeepsb-man: staying here for 15 minutes?23:42
b-mangod its wintery here, there is over 12" of snow and it's going to only be -9 F here tonight ;p23:42
b-manshure, if i can :)23:43
b-mandamn connection if failing on me23:43
b-manedit: is23:43
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Stskeepshow the heck do you find the major/minor for a device in sh?23:48
qwerty12_N800afaik, ls -l lists it23:49
qwerty12_N800busybox one too even23:49
Stskeepsyes, but its hard to get into shell ;23:50
* b-man wonders why debootstrap doesn't have md5sums and binutills as dependences23:50
Stskeepsb-man: cos i didnt upload it23:51
Stskeepsbut yes, it ought to :P23:51
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qwerty12_N800Stskeeps, ls -l /dev/mmcblk0 | awk '{print $5, $6}' ;)23:53
b-mangrrr, touch screen isn't working properly because hildon messed up >:(23:54
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b-mani'm back23:59

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